[Primer/Deck] Pox

[Hardcore]

I suppose sb against sneak&show should get most attention since the others are on the whole quite rare.

[jredelstein]

http://www.vintagemagic.com/buy/art-sketches/iceagepoxart.html

Just going to leave this here :)

[coricho]

Thank you guys for your advices.
I'll change the "lock down" slot for more relevent cards like pithing needle, bridge and maybe some surgical extraction.

Do you prefer a Main Board Dark Ritual IoK/Hym Split or a No Ritual IoK/TS Split?
I'm down to 3 ritual mainboard and thinking to send them to the sideboard.

[Chatto]

http://www.vintagemagic.com/buy/art-sketches/iceagepoxart.html

Just going to leave this here :)

If only I had the money...

[OmniStrata]

Thank you guys for your advices.
I'll change the "lock down" slot for more relevent cards like pithing needle, bridge and maybe some surgical extraction.

Do you prefer a Main Board Dark Ritual IoK/Hym Split or a No Ritual IoK/TS Split?
I'm down to 3 ritual mainboard and thinking to send them to the sideboard.

I always mainboard 4 Dark Ritual. The turn 1 Liliana is the best start in practically all game 1 situations. When you learn you won't die in 3 turns, then I board out my Dark Rituals for sideboard relevance. Even if you run into Force of Will, Daze, or Spell Pierce, the risk to reward ratio is just too gorgeous.

I don't split my Hymns with anything. 4 IoK/4 Hymn/4 Dark Rit. There's no reason to run any less. Discard is only good in the first 4 turns so having them come up asap is not a bad thing. Late game, the gamble is your land destruction has slowed them from emptying their hand so your discard can still be used on say, that Swords to Plowshares since you're Nether Spirit is 'hiding' in the Graveyard. DR still has its uses when you're less than 3 land and you still want to cast that Night of Souls' Betrayal late game.

[Alex Holland]

Does a pox list with hecatomb exist? i really like that card :really:

maybe.. bitterblossom, cabal therapy, stifle, hecatomb? that sort of cards..

[Hardcore]

I like that too, but it simply is too underwhelming for any one to try.

[zenitramleirdag]

Does a pox list with hecatomb exist? i really like that card :really:

maybe.. bitterblossom, cabal therapy, stifle, hecatomb? that sort of cards..

i think hecatomb is just a nonbo with the entire pox strategy, you also destroy your lands in the process of poxing so i don't think we can fully utilize hecatomb's ability..i'd rather swap all my swamps for snow-covered ones and run withering wisps instead..

[OmniStrata]

i think hecatomb is just a nonbo with the entire pox strategy, you also destroy your lands in the process of poxing so i don't think we can fully utilize hecatomb's ability..i'd rather swap all my swamps for snow-covered ones and run withering wisps instead..

I used to run that build a while ago. It's very effective in non-aggro meta, ironically enough. I found that if I'm getting face smashed, the Wisps couldn't 'turn the game around' without killing me. However, if you can keep a 1 life point lead, you win!

[zenitramleirdag]

I used to run that build a while ago. It's very effective in non-aggro meta, ironically enough. I found that if I'm getting face smashed, the Wisps couldn't 'turn the game around' without killing me. However, if you can keep a 1 life point lead, you win!

oh yeah! i remember that brew, Arctic Pox: the Legend of the Frozen Witch, right? he he he..
in mono black, my sweeper of choice is toxic deluge..drown in sorrow is decent and the scry effect is handy, especially in mono black where library manipulation is scarce, however, there are some cases where it wouldn't be enough to kill a big tarmagoyf, a tasigur or an angler..

are you still running spinning darkness in your 75?
i run 1 main and then another 2 in the side to help with the aggro matchup, especially burn..

[OmniStrata]

oh yeah! i remember that brew, Arctic Pox: the Legend of the Frozen Witch, right? he he he..
in mono black, my sweeper of choice is toxic deluge..drown in sorrow is decent and the scry effect is handy, especially in mono black where library manipulation is scarce, however, there are some cases where it wouldn't be enough to kill a big tarmagoyf, a tasigur or an angler..

are you still running spinning darkness in your 75?
i run 1 main and then another 2 in the side to help with the aggro matchup, especially burn..

Ah, the memories, title courtesy of Umi Neko. Drown in Sorrow is effectively the super(ior) version of Infest. I no longer run Spinning Darkness but I keep going back and forth on a single Murderous Cut due to being able to Delve 1 of my 2 Nether Spirits in case of GY clog. In my board, the 3 E. Plague and 3 Ensnaring Bridge is enough for any aggro.

For Burn, Contamination will uh, yeah... ^_^ It definitely works, I was just dumb enough to sac my Contamination instead of my Mishra's factory as I top decked a Crucible of Worlds... :cry: I'll never live that moment down, the guys around me almost boo-ed in agony with that play...

[OmniStrata]

Meta-changing my sideboard. Since aggro seems a bit less and GY strategies aren't as prevalent. My board now looks like this.

2 Pithing Needle
4 Contamination (ah, it's a 3 mana time-walk!)
3 Engineered Plague
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Extirpate
2 Leyline of the Void

Ultimately, control and mid-range are my worst nightmares at this point. Casting Contamination to stall and buy 1-3 turns is definitely worth it if I can feed it factories and then Crucible them back later in game.

[Hardcore]

Last tuesday i got a 3-1 record with this deck, which is acceptable.


4 Bloodghast
4 bloodsoaked champion
3 Gurmag Angler
4 the rack

4 liliana of the veil

4 Pox
4 smallpox
4 hymn to tourach
1 wrench mind
1 toxic deluge
4 chalice of the void

4 bloodstained mire
12 swamp
2 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
1 dakmor salvage
4 wasteland

Sideboard:
3 ratchet bomb
4 engineered plague
4 surgical extraction
3 darkblast
1 wrench mind


My result was:
2-0 Grixis Delver
2-0 Burn
2-1 Spanish Inquisition
1-2 burg? SFM and no delvers.


Rack and liliana was game winning in several duels. I also got the rack countered once (fear the rack!) if you can believe it!

My loss to SFM was a reminder i got a weakness there. The solution will be the second toxic deluge, and four Disfigure in the sideboard.
The Darkblasts, alas, are not strong enough.

[FTW]

MTGTop8 has 4 Brainstorm in approx 75% of top 8 decks, with blue cantrips clearly dominating the metagame.

Time for maindeck Chains?

Thinking of sleeving this up.


//Lands: 23
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
12 Swamp

//Spells: 25
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Innocent Blood
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
3 Raven's Crime
2 Pox

//Permanents: 12
4 The Rack
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 The Abyss
2 Cursed Scroll

//Sideboard:
3 Extirpate
2 Duress
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Pithing Needle
2 Tombstalker

[Hardcore]

Run both chains in main. Cut one Raven's crime.

[EtwasSteIne]

Hi guys,

after a long MTG-break and a few small experiences with Death and Taxes I decided to play Mono Black Pox again.
In Hamburg, Germany I played this list:

1 Cabal Pit
4 Mishra's Factory
11 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland

4 Dark Ritual
4 Innocent Blood
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Infernal Tutor
4 Liliana of the Veil

2 Cursed Scroll
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Nether Void

1 Nether Spirit
1 Tombstalker


Sideboard:


1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Extirpate

2 Sphere of Resistance
1 Trinisphere
1 Chain of Mephistopheles
1 Contamination

1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Engineered Plague
1 Spinning Darkness
1 Damnation
1 Toxic Deluge



Here is a small report of today:

Match 1: UR Delver


Game 1: He starts with Volcanic into Brainstorm and failed to find the second land for a few rounds. I had the Wasteland and 17 life at the end.

Game 2: This was a longer game and unfortunately for him his delver missed 3 chances to flip. I attacked his manabase and win on 2 life. He got only one land but enough Bolts in hand. My deck decided to give me topdeck Nether Void. :)

1-0

Match 2: RUG Delver


Game 1 and 2: He killed me both games slowly with Nimble Mongeese while I had all the answers in my hand. I keept good hands, but was not able to get 3 Mana in turn ~10.

1-1

Match 3: Miracles


Game 1: Discard and Ritual into Liliana was too strong for him.

Game 2: Great Game for me; Chains of Mephistopheles, Liliana with ulti, Night of Soul`s Betrayal (I saw 2 Cliques in Game 1) and finally Contamination with Nether Spirit got it!

2-1

Match 4: MUD


Game 1: Mana denial with Crucible and Ensnaring Bridge dominated him.

Game 2: I was able to control early to lategame until he got chalice on 1,2 and 3. After that he drew Karn and killed me in the last extra turn.

2-1-1

Match 5: TES


Game 1: He starts with Gitaxian Probe into land and Ponder. Looks like combo. He had a Duress in hand but my hand was not too scary for him so he ponders instead. My turn 2 play was Ritual into topdeck Nether Void. GG.

Game 2: My hand was Inquisition, Surgical Extraction, Smallpox and Sphere of Resistence. I won that game.


Final result: 3-1-1 (#6/30 players)

Today I always kept the initial seven and was always on the draw. The deck was super fun and very strong.



Finally my thoughts on the card decisions:


MD:

Tombstalker is by far the best finisher. He could be played through a counterbalance, block delver, fly over anything, costs only two mana etc.

Inquisition of Kozilek vs Thoughtseize is not an easy choice for me. IoK was better vs UR Delver, Burn.., TS shines against MUD and Omni; I am still not sure which is better for me.

Hymn to Tourach is a bad topdeck but performed good today. (used to play TS instead)

Infernal Tutor is super good because we operate always on topdeck-mode.

Ensnaring Bridge maindeck (target for Tutor) got me several games.

Nether Void is expensive but won me two games today.

Night of Souls' Betrayal seems good vs DnT and Pyromancer-decks. Could be moved to the SB.

Crucible of Worlds sometimes wins the game, sometimes is dead. Could be moved to the SB.

Cabal Pit together with Crucible of Worlds is a very good lategame-tech.


SB:

Surgical Extraction was very good today, I wont go back to Leylines.

Extirpate could be a third SE.

Grafdiggers Cage is for Reanimator, Dredge and Combo. Not sure how good it is.

Sphere of Resistance and Trinisphere was good today vs TES. Would come in into burn and omni, not sure how good it is.

Chain of Mephistopheles cleared the path vs Miracle!

Contamination locked Miracle out, but still is random.

Ensnaring Bridge protects me vs creatures. Maybe I should add another.

Engineered Plague two is the right number for me. Hits DnT, Elves, Goblin, Goblin Token (TES) and Merfolk.

Spinning Darkness comes in vs delver, burn, DnT ...

Damnation is the remote-button. Never used it. Maybe four mana is too much.

Toxic Deluge is a three mana board-clear. Lifeloss can be crucial so i only played one.


Feel free to comment my card-choices.:smile:

So far,

Stephan

[Hardcore]

Thank you very much for the report!
I suppose that deck is a toolbox-Pox. That is one strategy to achieve better consistency.

[hpl324]

you love most infernal tutor that beseech the queen ?

[EtwasSteIne]

you love most infernal tutor that beseech the queen ?

To be honest: I did not test beseech the queen. I was curious about bbb instead of 1b, but in most situations it should do the same.

[Hardcore]

Yesterdays tourney went not as well as i had hoped but was still a good experience. I encountered some rarely played decks and got opportunity to better test Toxic Deluge, now that i own two.

The deck

4 Bloodghast
4 bloodsoaked champion
2 Gurmag Angler
3 nihilith
4 the rack

4 liliana of the veil

4 Pox
4 smallpox
4 hymn to tourach
2 toxic deluge
4 chalice of the void

4 bloodstained mire
12 swamp
2 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
4 wasteland

Sideboard:
3 ratchet bomb
4 engineered plague
4 surgical extraction
4 disfigure


Changes: -1 Wrench Mind, -1 Gurmag Angler, -1 Dakmor Salvage
+3 Nihilith, +1 Toxic Deluge
Nihilith has several advantages. It is easy to suspend, it is not dependent of the graveyard, one can time the moment it comes into play (because removing counters are only mandatory at your upkeep, at other times it's voluntary), it can be hard cast, and lastly it has fear.
I have boarded out Gurmag when I suspected my opponent bringing in Rest in Peace. The Zombie Fish was an interesting experiment but it is not that hot.

My sideboard changes:
-1 wrench mind, -3 Darkblast
+4 Disfigure
Being pawned by stoneforge mystic was something i felt had to be prevented. Darkblast was not strong enough and led to excessive dredging.

My first opponent plays a traditional sneak and show. I was quite unprepared for that since I had forgot what he usually play. A critical factor was that he won the dice roll and thus went first in duel one and two.
This is a difficult deck to handle because of its redundancy.
I suppose lots of discard and surgical extraction would work best.

Next opponent played Enchantress.
This happen to be a difficult opponent too, also because of redundancy.
If you kill enchantress he still has enchantments that fulfill the same function. His win con is Rest in Peace and Helm of Obedience.
I got mana problems in game three. Should have done a mulligan.


Having made the deck SFM proof it was only fair i encounter and defeat one.
Interestingly Toxic Deluge was better than expected here. In one duel I got one countered and had to play the second too. That was eight life points lost just to remove a batterskull and SFM (possibly a DRS too, but i am not sure).
Unfortunately my opponent had five lands and could re-cast the germ. However with no other creatures for protection i could play big pox and remove threat and lands more permanently.


The last match was against another oddball: Imperial Painter.
First duel I struggled to remember what his deck did. He got a fast painter out and proceeded to counter my spells in a quick fashion.
I played chalice of the void set for two, but the grindstone cost one to play. Darn.
Chalice set for one won the two consecutive duels however:)
Funny tech was Shattering Spree that could destroy my chalice. Clever, but it didn't help at that stage.

so, 2-2 vs. bizarre combo decks.
What is the way forward here?
I think maybe moving Chalice to the sideboard and add Inquisition of Kozilek.
A third Toxic deluge in main deck would be fine too.

[EtwasSteIne]

Thanks for the report!

I saw your reports a few times. Those lists seems to be aggro-pox while i used to play very controllish. Thats why I have a few questions. :wink:

Bloodghast looks great for me, which creatures were the best for you? Which ones were not that good?
I see that big pox is great with recurring creatures, but in theory 4 seems too much for me. How do you think about that? Because you play Smallpox and Wasteland.
How good is chalice in a deck that could not cast it turn 1?

[zenitramleirdag]

with 4 big Pox, 2 toxic deluge and 4 bloodstained mire, not to mention the 4 surgical extraction at your side..your life can get dangerously low often..

also i'm not sure why you're running the mires instead of factories, i'm assuming they're for the angler's delve? i feel the fetches are not really that necessary..

and yes, with no spot discard like inquisition of kozilek, thoughtseize or duress; or even rituals to power out an early liliana or chalice, i wouldn't be surprised why you had a tough time against control..

[OmniStrata]

The Rack and Wasteland shouldn't be in the same deck. Wasteland without backup from Sinkholes isn't maximum LD use. Since you're going Rack, I'd say go Cabal Pit and kill creatures with your lands instead of Wastelanding their duals. 4 Pox means faster threshold than 1-2 Pox builds. Don't mind the 1 life payments. From the looks of things, you really don't care how low you go as long as you win.

I can't play like that with my version of Pox but if you can bleed, even if you bleed down to 1 life, a win is a win. In that case, consider 4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. Your Pits won't bleed you if you swamp tap them.

[Hardcore]

You are correct in that there are conflicting mechanics in the deck.
Part of the challenge in construction is to figure out solutions to them.

I often go back to the Rack in my builds. It works so well with the pox effects that it is a natural inclusion.
IOKs will probably take the place of chalice next time i play.

It will be two weeks until next time, giving me more time to think things over:D

[Hardcore]

Hm. Test!

[OmniStrata]

4 Bloodghast
4 bloodsoaked champion
3 Tombstalker/Nihilith
4 the rack

4 liliana of the veil

4 Pox
4 smallpox
4 hymn to tourach
1 Bottomless Pit
1 Toxic Deluge
4 chalice of the void

4 bloodstained mire
10 swamp
4 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
4 Cabal Pit
1 Dakmore Salvage

Sideboard:
1 Pithing Needle
2 ratchet bomb
4 engineered plague
2 surgical extraction
2 Extirpate
2 Disfigure
Dead Weight
Vendetta
Snuff Out
Spinning Darkness
Murderous Cut
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Bottomless Pit


Rack and liliana was game winning in several duels. I also got the rack countered once (fear the rack!) if you can believe it!

My loss to SFM was a reminder i got a weakness there. The solution will be the second toxic deluge, and four Disfigure in the sideboard.
The Darkblasts, alas, are not strong enough.

My suggestion with your aforementioned fixes + minor upgrades. I'd suggest 1 Pithing Needle just for how efficient it is. With Cabal Pits, you may not need 4 Disfigures but you can experiment with those alternatives.

And a surprise for you, ever thought of Cry of Contrition? You have a lot of sacrifice fodder.

[Hardcore]

Thanks for the report!

I saw your reports a few times. Those lists seems to be aggro-pox while i used to play very controllish. Thats why I have a few questions. :wink:

Bloodghast looks great for me, which creatures were the best for you? Which ones were not that good?
I see that big pox is great with recurring creatures, but in theory 4 seems too much for me. How do you think about that? Because you play Smallpox and Wasteland.
How good is chalice in a deck that could not cast it turn 1?

best creatures in order:

Bloodghast
Bloodsoaked Champion
the rest

Actually for control deck Mishra's factory is great, and so it Nether spirit. I find them to clunky though.



Playing four of everything is an old habit, but also to ensure that I draw those cards should I need them. If I had blue cantrips I could play fewer for sure.



Chalice is effective even if you can't play it turn one. It totally depends on the opponents. Against storm deck, for example, it is perfectly good to play chalice for 0 on turn one. It stops them from play their artifact like lotus petal and LED. Agains the painter deck it was enough to play chalice turn two for win.

[Hardcore]

My suggestion with your aforementioned fixes + minor upgrades. I'd suggest 1 Pithing Needle just for how efficient it is. With Cabal Pits, you may not need 4 Disfigures but you can experiment with those alternatives.

And a surprise for you, ever thought of Cry of Contrition? You have a lot of sacrifice fodder.

Cry of Contrition. Hm, have you tried it yourself? Sounds perhaps too conditional.

Four Pits seems a lot, but I'll give it some thought. Thanks!

[OmniStrata]

Cry of Contrition. Hm, have you tried it yourself? Sounds perhaps too conditional.

Four Pits seems a lot, but I'll give it some thought. Thanks!

I've used it in a mono black aggro deck with 24 threats. You've got lots of recurring threats and what's more, you can use it on an enemy's 'garbage' creature to make them want to sacrifice their 'better' threats should the cards in their hand be essential. It is in essence a 2 for 1 after all. My Pox doesn't have enough threats, your aggro build on the other hand... :eek:

[Hardcore]

Ah, one can use them on opposing creatures! That's quite funny:-D

[Hardcore]

I have gold-fished a list with Cabal Pit. The cards appears too slow, maybe because my deck is not controlish.
A cheap way to add extra creature kill is welcome however, so i may try them next tourney. Real testing, you know.

[zenitramleirdag]

I have gold-fished a list with Cabal Pit. The cards appears too slow, maybe because my deck is not controlish.
A cheap way to add extra creature kill is welcome however, so i may try them next tourney. Real testing, you know.


cabal pit is sweet, with or without crucibles..but 4 is definitely way too many..i feel comfortable running a singleton..

i'm thinking of maindecking a copy or two of bojuka bog again, to possibly slow down those tasigurs and anglers that are all the rage these days..

[Hardcore]

Bojuka wont stop delving. Isn't there a better solution?

[zenitramleirdag]

Bojuka wont stop delving. Isn't there a better solution?

i'm well aware, thank you very much..
what i'm implying is at least it would slow them down a little to not be able to cast multiples of them in a course of a game..

[Hardcore]

No offense! Sounded almost desperate only. It isn't that bad, is it?
Otoh, Tasigur with counter back -up is a problemx-(

[GenioDeArena]

Hello everyone, I've been building this deck for a long time and went to a local tourney a few weeks back, the meta is super developed with plenty of tier 1, 1.5 decks, I ended up going 1-3 but I think I (and the deck) can do far better in future events.

My decklist at the mooment is:


8 swamp
4 mishra's factory
4 wasteland
4 dakmor salvage
3 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth

4 mox diamond
3 the rack

4 deathrite shaman
4 skittering skirge
4 bloodghast
1 soulflayer
2 tombstalker

4 cabal therapy
4 hymn to tourach
4 smallpox
3 pox


The list I played last tournament looked very similar to this one, but I had some minor changes, like only 2 skirges, 4 racks and 2 MD extirpate (now on the SB).

The tournament report is a few weeks old, so take the meta considerations with a grain of salt, speciallt since many players there can switch decks from week to week.

Match 1Elves:
I won G1 after some attrition and getting lucky with a 2nd turn Hymn on the play, followed up by more discard. Tombstalker finished the job shortly after.
G2 he comboed on the second turn so there was not much I could do.
G3 was an attrition fest again And I won afetr he tryed to combo with few creatures to chain. Pox (saccing Ghast) plus Skirge won my first competitive match in over five years.

M2 Grixis
The dream was over preety fast G1 He chained a crazy bunch of cantrips and overruned me with Young Pyro tokens and double bolt.
I remember siding in Leyline of the void in G2 to fight Dig Through Time, and it worked, but the cantrip chains kept his hand full of answers and I eventually died to a jace Ultimate. i cannot remember correctly bc my notes are messed up,, but I made a midsized mistake in G2, casting a shaman with a skirge in play and a therapy on the yard... not a huge thing but i kept making those kind of mistakes all afternoon.

M3 BUG control
This is the match that should have won but ended up loosing to my own mistakes. With a bit more practice this will be winnable.
He plays a Jace, Liliana, Ashiok, Loam hybrid. G1 I started with heavy disruption and manage to put him on 3 life, with a ghast in play and anotherone in the yard, instead of dredging the dakmor salvage also in the yard I drew a card and casted Cabal therapy plus flashback without attacking. He ended up winning that game afterwards...
G2 I disrupted him and poxed him to oblivion
G3 we went back and forth for a long drawn out game that ended with him decking me with Ashiok and Loam recursion. A turn before he ultimated Ashiok I decided not to play a Tombstalekr in my hand to "wait for a turn to see what he does" This is not the kind of deck that holds down cards to answer the opp threats, this is hands down aggro disruption, no hold barred attack. Next turn he erased my yard and i lost motivation and the game shortly after.

M4 Deathblade
G1 he starts with a fetch into tropical island into deathrite, I cast a blind therapy naming Brainstorm and hit jackpot. Then Hymn, smallpox ghast and skirge. He conceded.
G2 Long game. We went back and forth trading discard for counterspells for a while, but eventually he landed a batterskull and sworded all my dudes.
G3 I mulled twice to find a hand with lands, and kept one with threats but no disruption, He killed me with batterskull again.

All in all I believe that the pox strategy is potent, The only real time I felt out of my game was against Swarm plus burn, otherwise i attribute the losses to missplays and being out of practice with tournament play (really, the last tournament i went was an old Extended one).

Right now my Sb looks something like this:


2 necroplasm
2 pithing needle
2 ratchet bomb
3 leyline of the void
2 engineered plague
2 duress
1 sadistic sacrament
1 massacre



Pros: The list is super disruptive, and hands with disruption and a clock are heavy contenders. First turn hymn rules. Skirge steal games, stalker seals them. If yoy play your cards right games tend to be very fast, wich leaves you time to see what the rest of the people are playing with...
Cons: Missplays, being in burn range, opp outdrawing you. Resolved noncreature threats are hard to deal with, as also are swarms.



Soulflayer is a test slot bc I couldn't find a third Stalker...

The leylines could very likely become extirpates and surgicals, to hose duals for the synnergy with therapy.

The next card on my buylist is Liliana, what can I remove for her?
In a few weeks I'll be playing again (job, college and girlfriend pull theyr weight against MTG spare time)
Thought, ideas on how to improve the list, playing tips, and any advice are welcomed.

Saludos!

[Hardcore]

liliana is not necessary in an aggressive build. Speed and disruption is key.

[zenitramleirdag]

you got a really aggressive list there..reminds me of hardcore's builds..

if i were running b/g loam pox or b/w holy pox, i'd go for the diamonds..

but i prefer rituals in mono black..

if you're having problems with swarm strategies, then you have to run something more than engineered plagues to keep them at bay..may i suggest toxic deluge or even drown in sorrow? i find necroplasm and ratchet bomb a little tad slow against swarm strategies like elves and goblins..though i still keep a pair of ratchet bombs at the side for chalices and needles..

i was gonna suggest spinning darkness against burn but its a non-bo with your tombys and your flayer, other players here have ran sun droplet and dragon's claws, they are fairly good at what they do although they might seem a little narrow since they aint very useful against other matchups..i like running trinisphere against burn, it really hurts them, plus it also helps against combo especially if you can power it out turn one via ritual..

lastly, you might wanna squeeze in some IOK's in there, hopefully in the main..

[OmniStrata]

That posted list could never be considered 'super disruptive' compared to traditional Pox. It's definitely the type to go fast games but disruption? I see 22 non-land cards that do nothing to disrupt your opponent's gameplan.

The Rack looks very out of place in that deck. With so much creature skull crushing, I don't think the opponent will live long enough for that thing to do its work. That and Liliana Rack combos well but as Hardcore said, your foe will be dead by the time you can damage with it.

DRS looks awesome though as a card that does damage, disrupts GY strategies, and provides mana.

[zenitramleirdag]

That posted list could never be considered 'super disruptive' compared to traditional Pox. It's definitely the type to go fast games but disruption? I see 22 non-land cards that do nothing to disrupt your opponent's gameplan.

The Rack looks very out of place in that deck. With so much creature skull crushing, I don't think the opponent will live long enough for that thing to do its work. That and Liliana Rack combos well but as Hardcore said, your foe will be dead by the time you can damage with it.

DRS looks awesome though as a card that does damage, disrupts GY strategies, and provides mana.


how does your list look like now omni?

[OmniStrata]

how does your list look like now omni?

Moar Contaminations, less GY hate. Only flopping around with my sideboard for now, but the local meta I'm in has almost no black in it so Contamination is poisonous... :laugh:

[Hardcore]

Doesn't this list look reasonable?

4 Bloodghast
4 Bloodsoaked Champion
3 nihilith

4 Pox
4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Toxic Deluge
4 inquisition of kozilek

4 Liliana of the Veil

4 The Rack

4 Bloodstained Mire
12 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland


Looks balanced doesn't it? I have put back Inquisition of kozilek to be more prepared for combo.
THAT may be why i went 1-3 this tuesday.

My first opponent played Shardless control. I got problems with my starting hands and never really recovered.

Second round I met a guy playing belcher. He goes of turn one playing a million goblins. Duel two he makes a million goblins but i am a turn ahead playing Ratchet Bomb and kill them.
Turn three he empties his hand to put belcher into play. I play Ratchet bomb and start add counters. Regretably he draws a spirit guide before i get discard to destroy his hand.


I consider dropping but decide to continue. At last then i get to play magic.

Next i get beaten by Death and Taxes. Toxic Deluge was supposed to be a solution to creatures but it is too slow vs death and taxes.
0-2 This should be an EASY opponent.

Eventually you get to fight someone worse than yourself, and you win.
He played Blade something and lost to me by 0-2.
Nothing to learn there. :/

So improvements that turn out to be dis-improvement(?). Haven't seen that before;-)

On the whole i like the deck, Aggro-pox. Fine tuning is all it needs, but that may mean big changes.

[zenitramleirdag]

@hardcore

"Looks balanced doesn't it? I have put back Inquisition of kozilek to be more prepared for combo.
THAT may be why i went 1-3 this tuesday."

-i don't think your inclusion of inquisition of kozilek is the reason why you went 1-3 yesterday since IOK is a good card against ALL the deck you went up against..




"My first opponent played Shardless control. I got problems with my starting hands and never really recovered."

-did you mean shardless BUG? speaking from experience, our problem against this deck is ancestral visions..(Pox's weaknesses are noncreature nonland permanents, graveyard interactions, and Ancestral Vision.- reid duke http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27423_Fun-Prophet.html ), since it helps them recover and beat us in card advantage..its the reason why reid once ran bottled cloister at some point, to match BUG's card advantage..




"Next i get beaten by Death and Taxes. Toxic Deluge was supposed to be a solution to creatures but it is too slow vs death and taxes.
0-2 This should be an EASY opponent. "

-toxic deluge is NOT slow, perhaps you found it slow since you're not running rituals in your build..its the cheapest, most versatile sweeper mono-black has access to in legacy, unless you're considering nausea or shrivel which, IMHO, is too narrow..

[zenitramleirdag]

Moar Contaminations, less GY hate. Only flopping around with my sideboard for now, but the local meta I'm in has almost no black in it so Contamination is poisonous... :laugh:

i've always wanted to try contamination in pox but i'm too chicken to use it in a tournament because i feel its too clunky, what cards do you run other than nether spirit to sustain it in play and keep the lock? are you running crucibles again? my friend suggested i try Ophiomancer and reassembling skeleton, though i feel the latter is too mana intensive in a deck that destroys its own lands, i haven't tried it so i can't comment on the card yet, what do you think? if i hadn't sold my bitter blossoms, i think i might test it with contamination too, although i might take out big pox because of fear of too much life loss..

in a casual game, i'd run it with breeding pit, until i buy my bitterblossoms back.. :laugh:

[OmniStrata]

Death and Taxes is a bye for Engineered Plague and Night of Souls' Betrayal maindeck. Ultimately, I did experiment with an Aggro-Control Pox running 12 threats, I've learned it does better against control, but worse against combo and aggro. For me, that improvement isn't worth it in a meta where aggro combo is prevalent. (my local)

For Contamination, I've noticed using it as a 3 mana Time-Walk is actually significant. I run 2 Nether Spirit, 1 Crucible, and 4 Mishra's to feed it. Just casting it for 'the hell of it' and then stalling out to top deck a creature/man-land makes it totally worth it. Why? Because you auto-win vs. most decks with it, that's why! :mad:

My last (and only) tournament with it I REALLY should have just thrown away my 2 Mishra's Factories to it since I top decked my Crucible the SAME TURN I sacrificed the damn thing. Running it as a 4 of after Sideboard is great for me. (very few mono-black decks in meta)

Decks that splash also suffer heavily. Can't Abrupt Decay if your lands only make Black and your DRS is Pithing Needled huh? :laugh:

Ophiomancer... With her in play, all your Pox effects become totally nullified. Card advantage... ah... And the chumping OH glorious chumping. I'd have to remove my Night of Souls' Betrayal for her which would kill my Death and Taxes auto win games, so perhaps another Pox deck could run her.

[GenioDeArena]

Thanks for the replies!

@Hardcore: Your lists were very influential, so if you say that Lili is not necesary then be it. My wallet will appreciate that for sure.

@Zenitramleirdag: I`ve played whit rituals instead of moxen in the past, and eventually ended taking them out. While they do provide some really explosive starts, they ofetn lefted me scrambling for an extra source of mana over the turns. In the long run mox provide more mana, and they are pox-proof to boot. I will retool the SB to make room for Drown in sorrow, and few ratchet bombs for hard to deal with permanents. i don`t know if the deck can support the lifeloss of toxic deluge, but I can try to test them in drown in sorrow`s place. IOK is something I will try to squeeze in the MD.

@Omnistrata: I took out The Rack, since it was dead in many games when my opp out drew me. DRS is very good, a decent one drop, late game reach, removal magnet, ramp, and lifegain with the mox.



My list now is the same as i posted but with -3 the rack and +2 extirpate (test slot until I can get some IOK) and +1 jitte.

Saludos

[B is for Big Job]

Thanks for the replies!

@Hardcore: Your lists were very influential, so if you say that Lili is not necesary then be it. My wallet will appreciate that for sure.

@Zenitramleirdag: I`ve played whit rituals instead of moxen in the past, and eventually ended taking them out. While they do provide some really explosive starts, they ofetn lefted me scrambling for an extra source of mana over the turns. In the long run mox provide more mana, and they are pox-proof to boot. I will retool the SB to make room for Drown in sorrow, and few ratchet bombs for hard to deal with permanents. i don`t know if the deck can support the lifeloss of toxic deluge, but I can try to test them in drown in sorrow`s place. IOK is something I will try to squeeze in the MD.

@Omnistrata: I took out The Rack, since it was dead in many games when my opp out drew me. DRS is very good, a decent one drop, late game reach, removal magnet, ramp, and lifegain with the mox.



My list now is the same as i posted but with -3 the rack and +2 extirpate (test slot until I can get some IOK) and +1 jitte.

Saludos

I really like your list and your new changes you've made, have you considered running 1-2 Crucible of Worlds for Wasteland recursion and synergy with Mox Diamond and Poxes?

[Admiral_Arzar]

Ophiomancer... With her in play, all your Pox effects become totally nullified. Card advantage... ah... And the chumping OH glorious chumping. I'd have to remove my Night of Souls' Betrayal for her which would kill my Death and Taxes auto win games, so perhaps another Pox deck could run her.

I have played a lot of Ophiomancer in mono-black Stax. Can confirm that she is nuts - and honestly, if you resolve Night of Soul's Betrayal, why do you even care that you're not making snake tokens? In that case you're almost certainly winning the game. The times you DON'T have Night though, Ophiomancer feeds sacrifice effects and clogs up the board at the same time.

[OmniStrata]

I have played a lot of Ophiomancer in mono-black Stax. Can confirm that she is nuts - and honestly, if you resolve Night of Soul's Betrayal, why do you even care that you're not making snake tokens? In that case you're almost certainly winning the game. The times you DON'T have Night though, Ophiomancer feeds sacrifice effects and clogs up the board at the same time.

Because... CONTAMINATION + Night of Souls' Betrayal!! :frown: *sniffle*

Snake Lady will end up getting Contamination fed instead of that sweet 1/1 death toucher. Granted, if I removed Night of Souls', then I can just squeeze 1-2 of her in the deck, but ultimately, I'd rather have less dissynergy and Death and Taxes has never beaten me yet. I hate dat deck with a passion.

Also, for 3 mana, being only able to generate just 1 snake token makes me sad. Would two of her in play stack the tokens? From the wording, I don't think it would.

Now that you mention Stax, I did run Smokestack at one time in Pox.

[GenioDeArena]

I really like your list and your new changes you've made, have you considered running 1-2 Crucible of Worlds for Wasteland recursion and synergy with Mox Diamond and Poxes?

Crucible is allways on my radar, wastes, factories, moxes... Wouldn`t know what to take out though.

[Hardcore]

Crucible is allways on my radar, wastes, factories, moxes... Wouldn`t know what to take out though.

No, you run an aggressive list. Crucible is for more control style decks.

[B is for Big Job]

Crucible is allways on my radar, wastes, factories, moxes... Wouldn`t know what to take out though.

I like to play with 61 cards so I would add it right in but with your list its a tough fit, like Hardcore said your list is very aggressive so it may not be needed, worth testing at least

[DarthVicious]

Illness in the Ranks

Anyone tried this? Seems good considering lots of decks plan on winning with goblins (Warrens), monks (Mentor), or elementals (Pyromancer). Along with other token decks. And its only 1cc.

Combined with E.Plague, not many other sweepers are necessary when you factor in the decks namesakes for sac effects (Pox & Smallpox).

[zenitramleirdag]

Illness in the Ranks

Anyone tried this? Seems good considering lots of decks plan on winning with goblins (Warrens), monks (Mentor), or elementals (Pyromancer). Along with other token decks. And its only 1cc.

Combined with E.Plague, not many other sweepers are necessary when you factor in the decks namesakes for sac effects (Pox & Smallpox).


could be effective versus lingering souls, Empty the Warrens, young pyromancer, bitterblossoms, etc.. but don't you think that at (3) mana we already have a better card in engineered plague? i would personally pay (2) more and cast engineered plague since its less narrow and is a card that also have other uses against many other matchups..but that's just my opinion..if i were going to a field expecting to see a lot of b/w tokens or belcher then i might run it too as a supplement to engineered plague and night of souls betrayal..

for that kind of effect, i think i'd rather go with dread of night to supplement my engineered plagues..though its dead against non-white decks..

but give it (Illness in the Ranks) a try and tell us what you think of it..

[zenitramleirdag]

who among here has tried ensnaring bridge in the main?

[OmniStrata]

who among here has tried ensnaring bridge in the main?

I did, a long time ago. Used Nezumi Shortfang, The Rack and ran 4 Poxes. It also used Necrogen Mists since I was unaware of Bottomless Pit at the time.

Ensnaring Bridge is great if your intent is to go long. Non-creature threats tend to take longer, but nothing says "auto-win" like a Bridge. Biggest problem though is that you can't run Wasteland and Sinkhole with it since you want everyone to empty their hands swiftly so losing your own mana source [wastelands] and Sinkholing theirs hurts your game.

If you are going Bridge Pox, I'd suggest no less than four and sculpt the whole deck around it. Ultimately, it's probably the most annoying Control archetype to play since your enemy can have 10 trillion damage worth of creature on the field and can't do anything with it... :eek::cool:

[zenitramleirdag]

I did, a long time ago. Used Nezumi Shortfang, The Rack and ran 4 Poxes. It also used Necrogen Mists since I was unaware of Bottomless Pit at the time.

Ensnaring Bridge is great if your intent is to go long. Non-creature threats tend to take longer, but nothing says "auto-win" like a Bridge. Biggest problem though is that you can't run Wasteland and Sinkhole with it since you want everyone to empty their hands swiftly so losing your own mana source [wastelands] and Sinkholing theirs hurts your game.

If you are going Bridge Pox, I'd suggest no less than four and sculpt the whole deck around it. Ultimately, it's probably the most annoying Control archetype to play since your enemy can have 10 trillion damage worth of creature on the field and can't do anything with it... :eek::cool:



i just thought about it since i've noticed that my main deck singleton engineered plague has been disappointing me quite often lately, and often times i wish it was a bridge or a deluge i've drawn instead..the plague can sometimes one-for-one but often times i draw it when a goyf or something elso that has a toughness 2 and above is on the field..

i just feel like trying a singleton maindeck in lieu of the lone engineered plague because it can answer and protect us against certain cards/decks that would've been a tough match up for us like show and tell and reanimator where the plague would've been dead card..i can always pitch it to liliana or any pox effects when i'm ahead and have factories on the field beating face..

[EtwasSteIne]

who among here has tried ensnaring bridge in the main?

I love to play an ensnaring bridge main and one in the board. Furthermore I have an infernal tutor (main) to find it. I think it is very strong and gave me a few g1 free wins (vs. RUG delver and merfolk..). Maybe I have to add, that my list is very controllish and slow (i wrote a small report a few pages ago).

In my opinion you have to play a decent amount of disruption in pox (land and/or hand disruption) and creature removal. The lasts slots could be filled with agressive or controllish cards, but to be honest I have not seen any convincing aggro-pox list. (Even though I love to see people trying it @hardcore and friends)

[coricho]

who among here has tried ensnaring bridge in the main?


I now play a one-of Bridge mainboard.
I run 5 singleton prison cards mainboard.

1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Nether Void
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Trinisphere

I havent played in a tournament with that list yet.

I might try EtwasSteIne's idea with a tutor card.
Game 1 it means I get one more chance to get the prison card I need in the matchup at hand.

I registered with Pox to a small event last sunday (10 men event)

#1 Grixis Delver
G1 He tempoed me out with daze and a Young Pyromancer on turn 3
G2 I had it all, inquisition, smallpox a shaman, plague on human, lily, etc
G3 He cabal for smallpox and hits , he's left with an unanswered delver for too long, and he wins.

#2 Dead Guy Ale
G1 NoSB on turn 3 takes care of the matchup
G2 I jam a bridge turn 3, but he manages to win with a lot of Blitterblossom tokens backed with a timely Decay on bridge.
G3 is merciless with dark Ritual NoSB on turn two, I win.

#3 Maverick
G1 I lose to a big KotR equiped with a jitte
G2 take forever, I hide behind double bridge, NoSB and Plague on cats forever ( I ask opponent if he concedes a couple of time, but he doesn't answer)
He dies to scroll with 6 minutes left on the clock
G3 Same lock down with Bridge, NoSB, Lily and plague on Cat when they soon call the 5 turns, oh well. Draw.

#4 Miracles
G1 I get the nuts with inquisition and trinisphere early enough backed up with Mishra Beatdown
G2 He'like sensei turn 1, counterbalance turn2.
G3 I keep a triple mishra hand with swamp and thoughtseize. I manage to win with manland.

Didn't play Pox for a while, so that was fun.
Cards I loved to see were IoK, Sinkhole, Smallpox.

Didn't like the hymn at all, al day long.
I like to have information about an opponent's hand and chose accordingly.
Pure card advange(2 for 1) is not always something I want.
I like to disrupt an opponent to open the window for a lock piece.

A friend of mine is playing Rack Pox and I urge him to play the hymn, because it's great in his build,
but in a prison build, information and choices are my way to go.

[zenitramleirdag]

Didn't play Pox for a while, so that was fun.
Cards I loved to see were IoK, Sinkhole, Smallpox.

Didn't like the hymn at all, al day long.
I like to have information about an opponent's hand and chose accordingly.
Pure card advange(2 for 1) is not always something I want.
I like to disrupt an opponent to open the window for a lock piece.

A friend of mine is playing Rack Pox and I urge him to play the hymn, because it's great in his build,
but in a prison build, information and choices are my way to go.

your reasoning reminds me of shawn riggin's list: http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/deck/1112 that's why he eschewed the hymns for the thoughtseizes..i can definitely see the reasoning behind this and agree with it to a certain degree..i have tried both(4 hymns vs more spot discard), and they both have their merits/demerits..i would even say to go ahead and try and use them both at the same time, maybe a 2/2 split? yes, i'd do that..theoretically, that might even be a good configuration in a field where there's aggro, combo and control at the same time..i guess its just a matter of preference..

right now, i'm running with the 4 hymns..there are quite a number of burn players in almost all the LGS i am hanging so i've relegated the thoughtseizes to the board where i'd side them in against control and combo..against miracles, i prefer thoughtseizes over hymn..

i'm actually thinking of replacing a copy of hymn with a one-of thoughtseize..in that way, i can have more turn 1 action and will smoothen the curve a bit..pox' curve is sometimes clogged at the 2-mana slot..

[Chiptoon]

To all the Loam Poxers on here, have any of you guys tried a reanimation package for the sideboard? The deck already runs Entomb, so I think it could be pretty easy to add in Iona and Elesh from the side with 2-3 Exhume. Most Loam lists I've seen run Sylvan Library so digging for one of the pieces is possible. Each of those creatures help with the decks weaknesses, swarm and combo/burn, but maybe I'm missing something. Thoughts?

[Hardcore]

perhaps they think the Dark Depths Thespian stage combo is good enough? After all it seem literally made for that deck!

[Toxboy]

I'm not quite sure taking out the thespian's stage combo is worth it to replace with a reanimator package (altough mostly sideboard) the biggest problem is that even with sylvan library it will lack consistency in our colors which you get with tutors and having things you can tutor for in B/G pox.

The upside is that you will be able to have great interaction still because you will have so much discard to force through your fatty and keeping it alive.

Also the biggest weakness is imo omnitell which you mostly solve by having the fatty in hand which will be harder if you have a 1 of Ionna



On another note, for all aggro pox players, have anyone brewed with hangarback walker (I played some standard these last months and think this card will have an impact soon either on mud or pox) it "dies" quite horribly to swords to plowshares but then they are not exiling a mishra's factory or another vital creature so it should work out quite nicely.
If you have any ideas regarding it pls let me know since i like having a creature you actually will be glad to sacrifice to contamination, smallpox, big pox or just chump a goyf for 4-5-6-or more turns.

[Hardcore]

it is an alternative for control pox, but not aggro decks. The clock is to weak.

[Mr. Safety]

I don't see walker being better than worm harvest for loam pox.

[Hardcore]

What I found a big problem is to choose between creature kill build or Chalice build.

CREATURES (11)
4 Bloodghast
4 Bloodsoaked Champion
3 Nihilith

SORCERIES (17)
4 Pox
4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Wrench Mind
3 Toxic Deluge

INSTANTS (4)
4 Disfigure

PLANESWALKERS (3)
3 Liliana of the Veil

ARTIFACTS (3)
3 The Rack

LANDS (22)
4 Bloodstained Mire
16 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth





CREATURES (11)
3 Nihilith
4 Bloodghast
4 Bloodsoaked Champion

SORCERIES (14)
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Pox
4 Smallpox
2 Toxic Deluge

INSTANTS (2)
2 Dismember

PLANESWALKERS (4)
4 Liliana of the Veil

ARTIFACTS (10)
4 Chrome Mox
2 Paupers’ Cage
4 Chalice of the Void

LANDS (19)
15 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire

[jredelstein]

To all the Loam Poxers on here, have any of you guys tried a reanimation package for the sideboard? The deck already runs Entomb, so I think it could be pretty easy to add in Iona and Elesh from the side with 2-3 Exhume. Most Loam lists I've seen run Sylvan Library so digging for one of the pieces is possible. Each of those creatures help with the decks weaknesses, swarm and combo/burn, but maybe I'm missing something. Thoughts?

I have actually been cutting down on Entombs. I am down to 1. I tend to trim graveyard cards for game 2 and would not want to sideboard into a package that is more graveyard reliant. I also don't run Sylvan Library, I run 2 Sensei's Top instead, life is too important to us to draw extra cards with Library and there are so many shuffle effects that Top can find me cards faster. Top can also be used to protect Life from the Loam from a Surgical Extraction and Top also interacts better with Pernicious Deed.

Crop Rotation for Glacial Chasm or just a turn 4 Marit Lage usually will beat burn(I found that adding Crop Rotaion to the deck made that matchup much more winnable), combo should be a fine matchup because we have so much discard(Sneak and Show and Omni being the exceptions because they can Dig Through time to get out of it, I can usually force them to a point where they Dig for Show and Tell and Omniscience with no other cards in hand and then I get to Maelstrom Pulse the Omniscience while they are waiting to draw their dig spells), and swarm is answered by Tabernacle or Pernicious Deed. If Omni is a match-up you see a lot you could bring in some number of Iona to put in with their Show and Tell like what Lands does with Trinisphere, Nether Void is also and option that is almost always better than Trinisphere in that match-up (Exception is when they have their 1 of Emrakul)

As far as Hangerback Walker goes I don't think we can run any creature that does not come back from the graveyard on it's own. Though that hasn't stopped me from brainstorming lists with Braids, Cabal Minion. I tried Deathrite Shaman when it came out and very quickly realized that non-recursive creatures in a Smallpox deck just don't work.

[OmniStrata]

As far as Hangerback Walker goes I don't think we can run any creature that does not come back from the graveyard on it's own. Though that hasn't stopped me from brainstorming lists with Braids, Cabal Minion. I tried Deathrite Shaman when it came out and very quickly realized that non-recursive creatures in a Smallpox deck just don't work.

For more punch, the 'creatures till end of turn' cards tend to out do the recurring threats for damage performance. A combination of Haunted Plate Mail and Chimeric Idol can be devastating in a deck without Mishra's Factories. They can all block or uppercut harder than Nether Spirit, Bloodghast, Reassembling Skeleton, or Ashen Ghoul.

[Hardcore]

The more pox spells one plays, the bigger the creatures become.

[jredelstein]

For more punch, the 'creatures till end of turn' cards tend to out do the recurring threats for damage performance. A combination of Haunted Plate Mail and Chimeric Idol can be devastating in a deck without Mishra's Factories. They can all block or uppercut harder than Nether Spirit, Bloodghast, Reassembling Skeleton, or Ashen Ghoul.

I agree with this statement more for Mono-Black where less cards go to the graveyard than in B/G because of dredging. Also because of Pernicious Deed. G/B also has Marit Lage, How about that for a "uppercut"!?

[Toxboy]

I have actually been cutting down on Entombs. I am down to 1. I tend to trim graveyard cards for game 2 and would not want to sideboard into a package that is more graveyard reliant. I also don't run Sylvan Library, I run 2 Sensei's Top instead, life is too important to us to draw extra cards with Library and there are so many shuffle effects that Top can find me cards faster. Top can also be used to protect Life from the Loam from a Surgical Extraction and Top also interacts better with Pernicious Deed.

Crop Rotation for Glacial Chasm or just a turn 4 Marit Lage usually will beat burn(I found that adding Crop Rotaion to the deck made that matchup much more winnable), combo should be a fine matchup because we have so much discard(Sneak and Show and Omni being the exceptions because they can Dig Through time to get out of it, I can usually force them to a point where they Dig for Show and Tell and Omniscience with no other cards in hand and then I get to Maelstrom Pulse the Omniscience while they are waiting to draw their dig spells), and swarm is answered by Tabernacle or Pernicious Deed. If Omni is a match-up you see a lot you could bring in some number of Iona to put in with their Show and Tell like what Lands does with Trinisphere, Nether Void is also and option that is almost always better than Trinisphere in that match-up (Exception is when they have their 1 of Emrakul)

As far as Hangerback Walker goes I don't think we can run any creature that does not come back from the graveyard on it's own. Though that hasn't stopped me from brainstorming lists with Braids, Cabal Minion. I tried Deathrite Shaman when it came out and very quickly realized that non-recursive creatures in a Smallpox deck just don't work.


Do you have a list? I thought about including glacial chasm but it just seems so mediocre most of the time not producent mana. My burn match-up is pretty much even without commiting any Cards to the matchup. But maybe It has some other uses?


I have a list I try to update reguraly at http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/20-02-15-pox-loam/

This is what I play in a close to neutral playing field (we have weekly tournaments with up to 40-50 players)
Even been thinking of going up in colored mana but not sure what to cut exactly. Also I would like to fit 2 chains among my 75 but I simply don't own the card

[Mr. Safety]

I'm messing around with loam pox again, I traded into a dark depths and thespians stage. I am including hexmage for very specific reasons: its fantastic against planeswalkers (jace), it gives me threats (a playset of factory is almost impossible to support once silver bullet lands and depths are in there), and lastly that it actually allows for a quicker combo (turn two with a nut draw, turn three with crop rotation and a green source.)

Here's my list for testing:

4x vampire hexmage
3x thoughtseize
3x inquisition of kozilek
1x raven's crime
4x smallpox
4x crop rotation
3x abrupt decay
1x maelstrom pulse
2x sylvan library
4x innocent blood
3x life from the loam
3x liliana of the veil

4x wasteland
4x verdant catacombs
1x bayou
1x overgrown tomb
1x woodland cemetery
3x urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
1x dark depths
1x thespian's stage
1x bojuka bog
1x cabal pit
2x swamp
1x forest
3x barren moor

Sideboard
1x glacial chasm
2x golgari charm
3x pernicious deed
2x shriekmaw
2x pithing needle
2x surgical extraction
2x choke


This seems strong. In order to optimize I may need additional copies of depths/stage, and obviously more bayous. The sideboard is just a stab, but I'm committed to some number of deed, charm, and choke. Rotation allows for sideboarded chasm against burn amd shriekmae is there for show and tell. Not having Krosan Grip for miracles may be incorrect, but I feel that deed does aaot of work against them. Overall, this feels strong. Library and barren moor allow for some great card advantage. Someone mentioned above that library doesn't exactly like to play along with deed and I agree with that. Its come up a few times. I would still keep library in while boarding in deed, but for those matchups both cards are excellent. Comments and advice warmly welcomed.

EDIT: I'm a land or spell short, and I am leaning towards a land. Maybe the 4th urborg?

[jredelstein]

Do you have a list? I thought about including glacial chasm but it just seems so mediocre most of the time not producent mana. My burn match-up is pretty much even without commiting any Cards to the matchup. But maybe It has some other uses?


I have a list I try to update reguraly at http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/20-02-15-pox-loam/

This is what I play in a close to neutral playing field (we have weekly tournaments with up to 40-50 players)
Even been thinking of going up in colored mana but not sure what to cut exactly. Also I would like to fit 2 chains among my 75 but I simply don't own the card

This is the list I have been playing,(from memory so hopefully I got everything right) I think I swapped -1 Entomb +1 Misty Rainforest for a week or two for the added green source but I have since gone back to this.

I played Chains of Mephistopheles main for SCG Worchester a few months ago because it was supposed to be a heavy blue field, I played 1 blue deck in 7 rounds :(, I also played Nether Void to use against Omni-Show

Spells
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Smallpox
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Crop Rotation
2 Life from the Loam
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Entomb
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Raven’s Crime

Creatures
1 Bloodghast
1 Nether Spirit

Lands
4 Bayou
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Mishra’s Factory
2 Thespian Stage
2 Misty Rainforest
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Dark Depths
1 Cabal Pit
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Forest
1 Swamp

Sideboard
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Disfigure
2 Extirpate
2 Golgari Charm
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Duress

[OmniStrata]

I agree with this statement more for Mono-Black where less cards go to the graveyard than in B/G because of dredging. Also because of Pernicious Deed. G/B also has Marit Lage, How about that for a "uppercut"!?

I don't want my uppercut to be all my eggs in one basket. Immunity to GY hate and traditional removal can be a boon. I myself don't run the "creature till end of turn" threats save Mishra's, but at least I don't need 'the combo' and my threats are immune to more removal. Some people think that hitting a Marit Lage with a Swords is funny, but people have died with 40 life before... :tongue: That and I love Mono-B consistency. We're also Wasteland resistant, what a bonus. Let's not forget color screw resistant. One of my favs, though irrelevant to many, is the Mono-B approach is just cheaper on the wallet as well.

[zenitramleirdag]

i run mono black and i can see b/g pox' vulnerability against blood moon and wasteland because of a shakier mana base but i think it makes up for that by offering more efficient answers in abrupt decay, maelstrom pulse and pernicious deed..

i admire the simplicity of mono black, though if i had the cards, i'd most likely give b/g pox a try..

i wouldn't say one is better than the other but both certainly have their merits and demerits, i would say it depends on the player's preference or the meta where he hangs..

i wonder what kinds of decks would either of the two be more effective in? example: in a field full o' burn, i think i'd pick up mono black since we have spinning darkness and nether void is a better fit in our deck, i think nether void would be awkward in a deck running life from the loam?(i could be wrong though, loampox pilots, please share me your thoughts if i am mistaken on this one..)

a BUG infested meta, i think is rough for mono black, based on my experience..i think loampox would perform better in that kind of field..

against which decks would mono black or b/g pox perform better against?

[Mr. Safety]

One of the fundamental weaknesses of pox is the top deck win. It doesn't play much at instant speed and opponents can sometimes just brainstorm into three good turns. Traditional pox is also abysmally slow, round time limits are a concern. Depths/stage/crop rotation are so easily splashed and loam is strong as a nonblue form of card advantage. The package fits so well not only as a way to win fast if necessary but also resilient with loam getting lands back. Raw power level, in my humble opinion, is stronger along with adaptability.

[Toxboy]

Well if you have the correct lock I can't see any singel way for the normal decks to win, I can see multiple top decks with you drawing Stone cold but that's pretty hard IMO.

And for the Nether Void question, yes the loam motor is pretty bad with Nether Void in play so you can't really mainboard it, but the decks you want it against you don't really need it anyways and are more reliant on earlier disruption

[zenitramleirdag]

One of the fundamental weaknesses of pox is the top deck win. It doesn't play much at instant speed and opponents can sometimes just brainstorm into three good turns. Traditional pox is also abysmally slow, round time limits are a concern. Depths/stage/crop rotation are so easily splashed and loam is strong as a nonblue form of card advantage. The package fits so well not only as a way to win fast if necessary but also resilient with loam getting lands back. Raw power level, in my humble opinion, is stronger along with adaptability.


i agree with the first sentence, however we have high-impact, proactive answers to attenuate this such as Night Of Souls betrayal, etc..and with Delver of Secrets, Snapcaster Mage, Grim Lavamancer, True-Name Nemesis, Ligering Souls, Mother Of Runes, etc. being legacy's defining creatures; we have basically "extirpated" a big percentage of their deck..furthermore, cursed scroll and liliana is good at handling top-decked creatures..

i suggest a pair of tombstalkers for mono black runners who's having problems closing out a game after establishing control to avoid the opponent from drawing himself back into the game..

[OmniStrata]

One of the fundamental weaknesses of pox is the top deck win. It doesn't play much at instant speed and opponents can sometimes just brainstorm into three good turns.

Why do people fear BS? As a card game based on card advantage, isn't 4 Smallpox the equivalent of killing 12 Brainstorms? You have to Brainstorm 3 times to recover from a Smallpox. Dig Through Time, Dark confidant, and Life from the Loam. That's real CA. While they're wasting time drawing their 3 good turns in 3 turns, we're punching them for 6 damage minimum (assuming you don't run 1 power threats) We really should be focusing on lessening our 3 worst problems, using the sideboard usually:

Non-land non creature permanents, Graveyard decks, and Ancestral Visions (Dig through Time).

I suppose Pox could include instant speed stuff like Diabolic Edict, funeral Charm, etc. But are you more referring to Instant Speed stack interactions? Suddenly, I consider Null Brooch for some card advantage. We don't care about creatures if it's 1 at a time right? :laugh:

[Hardcore]

liliana+ the rack+ null brooch

[Mr. Safety]

Why do people fear BS? As a card game based on card advantage, isn't 4 Smallpox the equivalent of killing 12 Brainstorms? You have to Brainstorm 3 times to recover from a Smallpox. Dig Through Time, Dark confidant, and Life from the Loam. That's real CA. While they're wasting time drawing their 3 good turns in 3 turns, we're punching them for 6 damage minimum (assuming you don't run 1 power threats) We really should be focusing on lessening our 3 worst problems, using the sideboard usually:

Non-land non creature permanents, Graveyard decks, and Ancestral Visions (Dig through Time).

I suppose Pox could include instant speed stuff like Diabolic Edict, funeral Charm, etc. But are you more referring to Instant Speed stack interactions? Suddenly, I consider Null Brooch for some card advantage. We don't care about creatures if it's 1 at a time right? :laugh:

When a deck relies on attacking hand size as much as pox does, brainstorm conveniently lets them stack on top of their deck. I don't fear brainstorm as much as I fear top decked good stuff. I stand by my premise that loam pox is inherently more powerful due to abrupt decay, library, and one mana demonic tutors at instant speed (rotation) for a 20/20 flyer.

[Hardcore]

That really applies to combo. A delver deck is not that scary resolving a BS.

[OmniStrata]

When you've got abrupt decay, library, and crop rotation, why bother hybridizing with Pox and diluting the objective (combo kill)? Why not just run BUG which has proven itself?

Loam Pox, at least when I ran it years ago, felt like a weaker BUG that didn't work with the stack, ran out of cards very quickly, and had more essential spells you couldn't Smallpox away. The current Loam Pox that's being discussed is ultimately, a combo deck that tries to murder the opponent in 2 turns. Not necessarily, after the first turn, but once the pieces are setup, which is easier to do with a Brainstorm included, it's drop the DD, Stage, and end of their turn, summon Marit Lage's bad assery. Problem is you can't disrupt your opponent with Smallpoxes at the same time you're doing this because you'll lose your land or you'll lose your 20/20 insta-win.

That and Jace, wow that damn PW. I think Jace is perhaps the worst reason to run a Pox deck. I have almost never won a game once that monster hits the field and I got no Needles for his skull. On the other hand, I'll win if my Sinkholes, Poxes, and Wastelands do their job since Jace is never mana ramped into play.

My worst nemesis isn't my foe sitting across from me, but more so my bad luck lol. I used to run SDT but without deck shuffling fetch lands, I found it better to just build the deck with smarter card choices... (aka, I won more consistently without SDT)

Maybe a Rock/Pox hybrid? Be the control, not the combo. :cool:

[Mr. Safety]

I respectfully disagree about loam pox not being optimal to hybridization with depths. Pox has so much disruption for fair decks while also having a way to race burn (its worst matchup.) Don't get me wrong, mb pox is a great deck. However, considering that the depths combo goes in and out of the dtb section (in a loam/lands shell) it seems reasonable to borrow tech and be that much if a stronger deck.

EDIT: To which bug deck are you referring? To my knowledge only Lands and occasionally loam pox utilize stage/depths.

[jredelstein]

The current Loam Pox that's being discussed is ultimately, a combo deck that tries to murder the opponent in 2 turns

Assuming you are talking about my list (post #2073) you could not be more wrong, it is more of a control pure control deck than even Miracles. By your classification of a deck as combo for containing 1 or more card that can combo finish a Miracles list running 2 Entreat the Angels is 2x the combo deck as the Loam Pox lists posted(Mr. Safety also ran 1 Dark Depths post #2072) The ability to Combo kill out of a control deck is just good deck building.


My worst nemesis isn't my foe sitting across from me, but more so my bad luck lol. I used to run SDT but without deck shuffling fetch lands, I found it better to just build the deck with smarter card choices... (aka, I won more consistently without SDT)


What you call bad luck, I call bad deck building. If you play a deck like mono black Pox and expect to perform well late game without some sort of library manipulation good luck against a deck with Dig Through Time or Brainstorm. And saying you didn't do well with Sensei's Top when you didn't run fetch lands is again bad deck building, why would you not run shuffle effects with Sensei's Top, take your own advice and make smarter card choices. Pox plan is to answer all their threats and get into a top deck game as soon as possible, mono black gets to that point then has to hope to top deck better than their opponent. I would never considering running a mono black pox list without sensei's top and fetch lands. G/B playing things like Sensei's Divining Top, Sylvan Library, Crop Rotation, Life from the Loam to allow us maintain control into the late game.

If it sounds like I am attacking mono black players I am sorry, I just get pissed off when uninformed people make rash judgments about things they know nothing about (Applies to everything in life not just Magic decks). I love a Smallpox deck in any incarnation and will support anyone who plays it or any other deck in Legacy. I also love Legacy and will support anyone looking to play the format. I will also gladly give my honest opinion of any deck choices for pox or any other deck. I am fully supportive of playing suboptimal cards for any reason as long as you are honest with yourself about why you are playing them (budget, pet card, fun of, are all valid reasons to me but don't say it is better when it is not, cards like Sensei's Divining Top and Cabal Therapy are 2 examples of cards that are difficult to play. not feeling comfortable enough to play them is one thing saying they are bad cards would be wrong)

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/28916_How-I-Learned-to-Appreciate-Legacy.html

P.S. I have never lost to Mono Black Pox ever, including late rounds of big events like Legacy Champs.

[Mr. Safety]

Assuming you are talking about my list (post #2073) you could not be more wrong, it is more of a control pure control deck than even Miracles. By your classification of a deck as combo for containing 1 or more card that can combo finish a Miracles list running 2 Entreat the Angels is 2x the combo deck as the Loam Pox lists posted(Mr. Safety also ran 1 Dark Depths post #2072) The ability to Combo kill out of a control deck is just good deck building.




What you call bad luck, I call bad deck building. If you play a deck like mono black Pox and expect to perform well late game without some sort of library manipulation good luck against a deck with Dig Through Time or Brainstorm. And saying you didn't do well with Sensei's Top when you didn't run fetch lands is again bad deck building, why would you not run shuffle effects with Sensei's Top, take your own advice and make smarter card choices. Pox plan is to answer all their threats and get into a top deck game as soon as possible, mono black gets to that point then has to hope to top deck better than their opponent. I would never considering running a mono black pox list without sensei's top and fetch lands. G/B playing things like Sensei's Divining Top, Sylvan Library, Crop Rotation, Life from the Loam to allow us maintain control into the late game.

If it sounds like I am attacking mono black players I am sorry, I just get pissed off when uninformed people make rash judgments about things they know nothing about (Applies to everything in life not just Magic decks). I love a Smallpox deck in any incarnation and will support anyone who plays it or any other deck in Legacy. I also love Legacy and will support anyone looking to play the format. I will also gladly give my honest opinion of any deck choices for pox or any other deck. I am fully supportive of playing suboptimal cards for any reason as long as you are honest with yourself about why you are playing them (budget, pet card, fun of, are all valid reasons to me but don't say it is better when it is not, cards like Sensei's Divining Top and Cabal Therapy are 2 examples of cards that are difficult to play. not feeling comfortable enough to play them is one thing saying they are bad cards would be wrong)

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/28916_How-I-Learned-to-Appreciate-Legacy.html

P.S. I have never lost to Mono Black Pox ever, including late rounds of big events like Legacy Champs.

Preach brother. Loam is a tier 1 card and green offers library manipulation and card advantage. Loam pox offers an excellent late game AND a way to close otherwise unwinnable matchups with a fast marit lage. I have only done a small amount of testing recently but I played hexmage depths back before stage was available. It was a different legacy then, but now it seems to be a better plan.

I'm not even worried about swords to plowshares on my token...an extra 20 life will give the deck plenty of time to grind out a win. The only hate that really cripples depths is graveyard hate...and we can combat that well enough by sideboarding correctly to minimize reliance on the yard.

[Toxboy]

is it just me or is th 20/20 not your primary win condition? Yes it's nice and all having the ability to make a 20/20 out of nowhere but the main win con is mishra's factory and nether spirit.

A win condition further fueled by having thepsian's stage (I copied far more mishra's factory with it than I copied Dark Depths). In my opinion the Combo isn't there so you can win out of nowhere, it's to make sure your opponent has to play around it at all times when you leave mana up, often for abrupt decay or crop rotating the land that they try to wasteland.

Also since the main plan (my plan at least) is to empty their hand and then attack all I need to setup is my loam which I can tutor for.

[Mr. Safety]

is it just me or is th 20/20 not your primary win condition? Yes it's nice and all having the ability to make a 20/20 out of nowhere but the main win con is mishra's factory and nether spirit.

A win condition further fueled by having thepsian's stage (I copied far more mishra's factory with it than I copied Dark Depths). In my opinion the Combo isn't there so you can win out of nowhere, it's to make sure your opponent has to play around it at all times when you leave mana up, often for abrupt decay or crop rotating the land that they try to wasteland.

Also since the main plan (my plan at least) is to empty their hand and then attack all I need to setup is my loam which I can tutor for.

I eschew factory for more stable mana, and in exchange I play a set of vampire hexmage as my slow attackers. Not having factory also allows me to play a volrath's stronghold and an eternal witness. I should probably update my list ln here:

4x hexmage
1x ewitness
4x smallpox
3x liliana
3x abrupt decay
1x maelstrom pulse
2x sylvan library
1x darkblast
3x loam
4x crop rotation
3x thoughtseize
3x duress
3x hymn to tourach

4x verdant catacombs
1x bayou
1x overgrown tomb
1x woodland cemetery
4x urborg
4x wasteland
1x depths
1x stage
1x bojuka bog
1x cabal pit
1x volraths stronghold
2x swamp
1x forest
3x barren moor

61 cards

Sideboard

1x glacial chasm
2x pithing needle
3x deed
2x golgari charm
2x surgical extraction
2x choke
3x shriekmaw

[zenitramleirdag]

at ease men, why don't we all puff a purple peace pipe and make merry! he he he..

i would love to play more legacy but the next big legacy event here is not until october 25.. :frown:

[jredelstein]

You're not sorry. Seems to me you've read my text as hating on Loam Pox. I don't hate it and none of my posts ever said to 'never run Loam'. Why would they? I run Crucible. Both cards achieve card advantage, it's just that Loam is cheaper, needs another color, and is harder to interact with. Both die to GY hate. Perhaps I did post something... I accept being a hypocrite.
I am sorry if it "sounds like I am attacking mono-black players", I am not sorry if it sound like I am angry with Posts attacking the deck I have been playing for years. New players and old use these forums as a resource and you are doing a disservice by making uninformed judgments about a deck you can't even properly recognize as a control deck. OmniStrata, you in particular have respect as an innovator on this forum when it comes to Mono-Black Pox because of that you have a responsibility to anyone else using this thread to think about your posts before you post them.


When you've got abrupt decay, library, and crop rotation, why bother hybridizing with Pox and diluting the objective (combo kill)? Why not just run BUG which has proven itself?

Loam Pox, at least when I ran it years ago, felt like a weaker BUG that didn't work with the stack, ran out of cards very quickly, and had more essential spells you couldn't Smallpox away. The current Loam Pox that's being discussed is ultimately, a combo deck that tries to murder the opponent in 2 turns. Not necessarily, after the first turn, but once the pieces are setup, which is easier to do with a Brainstorm included, it's drop the DD, Stage, and end of their turn, summon Marit Lage's bad assery. Problem is you can't disrupt your opponent with Smallpoxes at the same time you're doing this because you'll lose your land or you'll lose your 20/20 insta-win.


You start by saying Loam Poxers should just play BUG and that Loam Pox is a "weaker BUG". You then make the assertion that the Loam Pox lists "is ultimately, a combo deck" and that we should not play Smallpox in a combo deck. So no I can not quote to saying the exact phrase "never run Loam." You do say we should not run Loam Pox play BUG instead and don't run Smallpox in your combo deck



I've run Loam Pox before. Maybe not the current Dark Depths incarnation, but I did play it. And Liliana does all the late game lifting you'd need. I ran SDT way back when Liliana wasn't printed yet... :frown: You're accusing me of ignorance as if I don't know how to play Loam Pox or worse, that I've never played it before and have no business discussing it. My Loam Pox ran updated with Abrupt Decay and Pernicious Deed once. Rock Pox as it were. Alas, it also ran Worm Harvest, which at times, would generate 10+ tokens easily, though it did take a long time.

It sounds to me that your experience with Loam Pox is outdated. Based on your classification of Loam Pox as a combo deck I can pretty confidently say that you don't know how to play Loam Pox, because if you play a control deck like a combo deck you will lose. I am sure you are a great Mono-Black Pox player.


I'll make sure not to discuss ideas then... But it's not right to speak as though I never tested what I suggested.

I love a Smallpox deck in any incarnation and will support anyone who plays it or any other deck in Legacy. I also love Legacy and will support anyone looking to play the format. I will also gladly give my honest opinion of any deck choices for pox or any other deck. I am fully supportive of playing suboptimal cards for any reason as long as you are honest with yourself about why you are playing them (budget, pet card, fun of, are all valid reasons to me but don't say it is better when it is not, cards like Sensei's Divining Top and Cabal Therapy are 2 examples of cards that are difficult to play. not feeling comfortable enough to play them is one thing saying they are bad cards would be wrong)
I hope you will continue to do the same, just please be honest with yourself and others about your experience when it comes to different variations of Pox in the future. You are a valuable part of the Pox and Legacy communities.

[OmniStrata]

In the Game of Magic, you either adapt or you die...

Noting that my meta no longer has fast aggro/tribal or token rush, I'll be removing 2 of my major cards. Whoever suggested Ophiomancer, I thank you. I'll be keeping a single Engineered Plague maindeck in case of TNN, or any other annoying 1/1s (bob). I'll be dropping Crucible of Worlds since Ophio is GY proof (getting Nether Spirit surgically extracted with M Factory stops Contamination dead). Also dropping Night of Souls' betrayal so the Snake Tokens can do their thing.

-1 Crucible
-1 NoSB
-1 Innocent Blood
+2 Ophiomancer
+1 Murderous Cut

The Cut will help keep the GY clear of Ophiomancers who will inevitably end up dying to whatever and jamming NS. I'm also considering Akroan Horse (lol) but if my enemy decides to Sacrifice to anything, I'll probably end up jamming my own sac spells... :frown:

[jredelstein]

In the Game of Magic, you either adapt or you die...

Noting that my meta no longer has fast aggro/tribal or token rush, I'll be removing 2 of my major cards. Whoever suggested Ophiomancer, I thank you. I'll be keeping a single Engineered Plague maindeck in case of TNN, or any other annoying 1/1s (bob). I'll be dropping Crucible of Worlds since Ophio is GY proof (getting Nether Spirit surgically extracted with M Factory stops Contamination dead). Also dropping Night of Souls' betrayal so the Snake Tokens can do their thing.

-1 Crucible
-1 NoSB
-1 Innocent Blood
+2 Ophiomancer
+1 Murderous Cut

The Cut will help keep the GY clear of Ophiomancers who will inevitably end up dying to whatever and jamming NS. I'm also considering Akroan Horse (lol) but if my enemy decides to Sacrifice to anything, I'll probably end up jamming my own sac spells... :frown:

I like that Ophiomancer triggers on both upkeeps so if you smallpox one away you'll still get one on their upkeep, and Akroan Horse seems awesome and hilarious.

I like the idea of having an non-creature token generator that will not get in the way of Nether Spirit. Bitterblossom or Breeding Pit could work but Bitterblossom life lose is probably a deal breaker and Breeding Pit making tokens at end of turn instead of upkeep is less convenient. Have you thought about Trading Post it will cost life but the other modes could be helpful in other scenarios. Life gain vs Burn would be nice and there could be some synergy with artifacts out of the sideboard like sacrificing pithing needle to draw a card then sac nether spirit to get back needle to name something new.

[OmniStrata]

I like that Ophiomancer triggers on both upkeeps so if you smallpox one away you'll still get one on their upkeep, and Akroan Horse seems awesome and hilarious.

I like the idea of having an non-creature token generator that will not get in the way of Nether Spirit. Bitterblossom or Breeding Pit could work but Bitterblossom life lose is probably a deal breaker and Breeding Pit making tokens at end of turn instead of upkeep is less convenient. Have you thought about Trading Post it will cost life but the other modes could be helpful in other scenarios. Life gain vs Burn would be nice and there could be some synergy with artifacts out of the sideboard like sacrificing pithing needle to draw a card then sac nether spirit to get back needle to name something new.

Problem with the Trading Post is that it can be Pithing Needled. The other cards you mentioned are triggers and therefore must be Stifled, which won't mean anything with Contamination off the field, but if it's on the field, they can't even cast Stifle anyway. :cool: Currently not afraid of Burn. Contamination shuts it off quite nicely, at 1 hp to spare no less... Assuming no Barbarian Ring. :eek:

Ophiomancer is probably best since unlike the other cards mentioned, it will kill a Tarmogoyf using the little snakes. So the goyf either won't block the snakes, or won't attack. I always assume da Goyf is fighting me as it's my most troublesome 'biggie' threat. If she's resolved, enemy has no colorless creature removal, and not outnumbering me in threats, it's just a matter of Cursed Scrolling them to death. Or hiding behind my Ensnaring Bridge and doing the same. Pox is a sadist's deck.

Update: On the other hand, a Pithing Needle on the Post is one less Needle in Liliana's spine. If I move a card or 2, I could probably run Ophiomancer and the Trading Post. That post can also rescue an Abrupt Decayed Crucible which in turns keeps the Mishra's Contamination feed and Wastelock flowing.

[zenitramleirdag]

i feel this is a difficult time for pox with prison strategies because of dig through time..we can bury them with our resource denial but they can easily undo it by casting even just a single DTT, and suddenly we are far behind..

www.youtube.com/watch?v=95rUPDl0488

copies of chains of mephistopheles and void effects(nether void, trinisphere, sphere of resistance) are a must in its 75 to neuter DTT or run big beaters to end the game quickly after disrupting..

[jredelstein]

i feel this is a difficult time for pox with prison strategies because of dig through time..we can bury them with our resource denial but they can easily undo it by casting even just a single DTT, and suddenly we are far behind..

www.youtube.com/watch?v=95rUPDl0488

copies of chains of mephistopheles and void effects(nether void, trinisphere, sphere of resistance) are a must in its 75 to neuter DTT or run big beaters to end the game quickly after disrupting..

Unfortunately Chains of Mephistopheles does nothing against Dig Through Time, that is why OmniStrata has adopted Contamination and G/B plays Dark Depths Mono black need a better lock and G/B looks to end the game faster once parity is reached.

I have played Nether Void when there was a lot of Omni-Show around, it is better than Trinisphere in every scenario other than when they naturally have Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, I do play 2 Bojuka Bog 1 main and 1 side, since Omni runs mostly basic islands I take out my Wastelands and bring in the second Bog to slow Dig down.

I find is still not that great once they are hellbent, I usually have a Liliana of the Veil so they rarely get to play Dig and then cast what they find.

[Mr. Safety]

i feel this is a difficult time for pox with prison strategies because of dig through time..we can bury them with our resource denial but they can easily undo it by casting even just a single DTT, and suddenly we are far behind..

www.youtube.com/watch?v=95rUPDl0488

copies of chains of mephistopheles and void effects(nether void, trinisphere, sphere of resistance) are a must in its 75 to neuter DTT or run big beaters to end the game quickly after disrupting..

Which is why dark depths is better positioned in a loam pox shell atm. Pox is still a solid against many strategies and now you can marit lage combo quick.

[OmniStrata]

Nether Void and Trinisphere are certainly the superior lock vs. Omni-Show if they've got Omniscience on the table vs. me dropping a Contamination. My only real out is if they're hellbent after they drop Omniscience. I do wish I had an Underworld Dreams resolved as someone does an Enter the Infinite (and hope they're not paying attention). :laugh:

As far as DTT is concerned, if we nuked them down to 2 lands, I'm certain they're still stuck since well, they probably either Dig for lands (lol) or we have a Liliana out with a few Loyalty so they're discarding one of them. That and Leyline of the Void. The ultimate out vs. GY strategies. One DTT tells me immediately, sideboard in my GY hate asap. Those of you running Nether Void probably laugh at DTT. 5 mana dig? Sure, good luck with that.

Does Sphere of Resistance allow Delvers to just Delve 1 more since it directly adds to mana costs?

[PirateKing]

Does Sphere of Resistance allow Delvers to just Delve 1 more since it directly adds to mana costs?

Yeah, costs are calculated, all modifiers applied, including Sphere or Resistance and Thalia, then costs are paid, either by mana or Delve.

[Hardcore]

Part of the problem building my deck is to know what to exclude. I figure not every pox card work in every variant of the deck. Smallpox and pox both make it hard to play other expensive cards, like liliana.
Pox is fine but should i run without lili or smallpox? Which is better for AggroPox?

[Chiptoon]

Tom Ross decided to sleeve up Pox for an IQ and manged to finish 5th with it. This is the list he played.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=91949

[OmniStrata]

Part of the problem building my deck is to know what to exclude. I figure not every pox card work in every variant of the deck. Smallpox and pox both make it hard to play other expensive cards, like liliana.
Pox is fine but should i run without lili or smallpox? Which is better for AggroPox?

Your previous findings were correct. I ran Aggro Pox [LD focus] with Liliana and found that she didn't really do much since enemies would die too fast for it to matter. Tombstalker, Nihilith, and Nyxathid were my win cons way back when. You only need to trip them with fast Discard/Land destruction, then let your biggies cut your enemies down in 4-5 turns before they can recover. Keep Smallpox, ditch Liliana and go with more copies of big Pox. Pox cuts your clock to 3 turns with Tombstalker or Nihilith (assuming your enemy used a fetchland). 2 turns with Nyxathid and they're Hellbent.

If you're still stuck, then maybe it's time to do some control variant experiments?

[Hardcore]

Tnx for feedback! I'll run a liliana less deck tomorrow to test. Wonder if i should bother with SDT?

[Ralf]

Black vise unbanned !

LD strategy is back.

[Admiral_Arzar]

More importantly, DTT is gone. Blue no longer has the ability to nullify all of our disruption for UU in a way that ignores Chains to boot.

[Hardcore]

Tnx for the info. Didn't notice that.

Not sure it will do much for us. Less combo decks perhaps.

[Mr. Safety]

More importantly, DTT is gone. Blue no longer has the ability to nullify all of our disruption for UU in a way that ignores Chains to boot.

It seems like a good time to dust off smallpox and hymn.

[OmniStrata]

Tnx for feedback! I'll run a liliana less deck tomorrow to test. Wonder if i should bother with SDT?

How many aggro decks run SDT? :tongue: SDT is defined in a control deck. I don't believe I've ever seen it in any aggro deck due simply to its nature as a slow card. If Black Vise is unbanned, I'm bringing back Trinisphere and Rancid Earth! :eek:

On the flip side, I may have to remove Hymn to Tourach and Liliana since they defeat the purpose of "hand full of useless cards" approach to victory.

[Hardcore]

Well, my deck is already is set for tonight so sdt is in.

[OmniStrata]

Well, my deck is already is set for tonight so sdt is in.

Cool. Let me know how it goes. If I make a LD focused Pox, I'll need to give it an Aggro edge since lands don't use the stack and killing them faster is better than attempting a prison.

[Chiptoon]

Has anyone tried Desolation in Mono Black? It seems like really good tech against Miracles along with Pithing Needle.

[zenitramleirdag]

i have ran desolation in the past as a weapon against miracles, it hurts our scrolls and factories though so i had to resort to bloodghasts, nether spirit and haunted platemail as my primary wincons..i would run crucibles or maybe mox diamonds to offset the land loss..

imagine how painful it'd be casting brainstorm and other cantrip spells with a desolation in play..

Desolation also goes well with Tabernacle...




but right now, i feel comfortable with just the crucible/wasteland soft lock..

[zenitramleirdag]

It seems like a good time to dust off smallpox and hymn.

tis' indeed a good time for pox! DTT has given blue decks a very unfair advantage over non-blue decks, it has literally almost pushed JUND out of the tournament scene..
it has also made discard weaker because they can just reload and recover cheaply for 2 mana..i'm glad its banned, not because it benefited our deck, but because it just warps the format..even if i were on blue, i'd still be glad it was banned..

black vise! i miss that, unfortunately, lili and vise just don't mesh well..

[Hardcore]

Cool. Let me know how it goes. If I make a LD focused Pox, I'll need to give it an Aggro edge since lands don't use the stack and killing them faster is better than attempting a prison.

I just got a 2-2 result with my build. The rack was still powerful despite me not running liliana, but I was less impressed by cabal therapy.
It often is like that: i retry cards i have played in the past and relearn the reason i didn't like them.

SDT i used a lot, but i am not sure of its worth compared to pure card draw. Otoh, if one is looking for a specific card, like wasteland or sinkhole, then it may be quite good.

[OmniStrata]

I just got a 2-2 result with my build. The rack was still powerful despite me not running liliana, but I was less impressed by cabal therapy.
It often is like that: i retry cards i have played in the past and relearn the reason i didn't like them.

SDT i used a lot, but i am not sure of its worth compared to pure card draw. Otoh, if one is looking for a specific card, like wasteland or sinkhole, then it may be quite good.

I never had the mana for SDT due to just casting what I'd top deck, Wastelands, Pox, and most importantly, Cursed Scroll.

I had 4 copies of Desolation and ran it, but for the same mana and a bit of a nuisance condition, Contamination is superior. The problem I had with Desolation is, unless I had a win con, enemies were still able to cast and play what they top decked. That and I had to be far ahead on resources to min-max Desolation's use, making it feel like a 'win more' card. Contamination however, can Time-walk for 3 mana if I don't have my sacrifices ready, and if the enemy has 5+ land on the field, can auto-win against any colored topdeck once it hits. Again, assuming they're not playing a black deck. I'll consider Desolation again, if I go the LD route and ditch Cursed Scroll and Mishra's Factory, which makes Desolation hurt me far more than them.

I do recall Desolation working better in a Pox deck armed with Chimeric Idols, Nether Spirit, and Haunted Platemail, but I think those lists are outdated by this point.

[Mr. Safety]

tis' indeed a good time for pox! DTT has given blue decks a very unfair advantage over non-blue decks, it has literally almost pushed JUND out of the tournament scene..
it has also made discard weaker because they can just reload and recover cheaply for 2 mana..i'm glad its banned, not because it benefited our deck, but because it just warps the format..even if i were on blue, i'd still be glad it was banned..

black vise! i miss that, unfortunately, lili and vise just don't mesh well..

I think jund just gets better too. I had a hard time beating the tempo decks (mostly esper mentor) in my small testing data. Gurmag angler is a real threat and mentor is very good. Honestly, getting probe/therapy on my hexmage/rotation was sick. I had a turn 3 marit lage and I already ripped stp out with inquisition. Those are the breaks. I hope jund steps in and starts squashing the tempo decks down again, and it kind of makes me want to play a more traditional loam pox list with bloodghasts, innocent blood, and deeds main again. I am not giving up on depths just yet though, and maybe its a sideboard strategy (transformational) as it only takes up 6 slots without hexmage.

For now, I'll just go with my current list. Maindeck darkblast or disfigure may help fill in for the missing innocent bloods (missing that early cheap removal).

[Hardcore]

Darkblast can't handle DRS ,or SFM, well.

[Mr. Safety]

Upkeep, darkblast. Draw step, dredge darkblast, play darkblast. Needs 2 lands but that has ways been a flexible mode of darkblast.

[Hardcore]

indeed, and i have been a proponent of that tactic. why then didn't it help me yesterday against blade control?
A sweeper would have been better then.

[Mr. Safety]

indeed, and i have been a proponent of that tactic. why then didn't it help me yesterday against blade control?
A sweeper would have been better then.

Deed is really strong in that regard, but I understand it is slow. Drown in sorrow seems good for monoblack, or massacre if they are playing plains.

[Ralf]

BV will be "live" very soon and I'm looking forward using it.

Here is my take on a list including it:


2 Maze of Ith
2 Rishadan Port
2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
12 Swamp
1 Nether Spirit
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Black Vise
4 Trinisphere
1 The Abyss
4 Dark Ritual
2 Rancid Earth
4 Encroach
4 Innocent Blood
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox

SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Nether Void
SB: 2 Spinning Darkness
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Braids, Cabal Minion
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
SB: 1 Pox


I'm just "theorycrafting", here, but anyone should get the general idea.

Happy testing and happy to discuss.

Edit: after a few games, the list has evolved a bit.

1) Encroach seems like a necessary evil as usually it is a very broken T1 play
2) 3 BV are sufficient. Being able to kill faster is cool but being able to lock and sustain the lock is better
3) Mishra was "cute". As the mana curve has been lowered a bit, cutting a land was an obvious choice.

[PirateKing]

Happy testing and happy to discuss.

I think Nether Void would be a better use of high value Legends cards if the goal is to keep cards in their hands towards Black Vice. I see lots of cards dealing with opponent's creatures, which makes it feel weak against combo and a number of other decks.

[Ralf]

I think Nether Void would be a better use of high value Legends cards if the goal is to keep cards in their hands towards Black Vice. I see lots of cards dealing with opponent's creatures, which makes it feel weak against combo and a number of other decks.

I think you should read Nether Void again.
The problem is that it does not prevent your opponent from playing cards at all (unlike Trinisphere) and you want your opponent to keep cards in hand.

Nevertheless, you might be right about combo MU. The SB is maybe too much oriented about dealing with creature.

[zenitramleirdag]

Deed is really strong in that regard, but I understand it is slow. Drown in sorrow seems good for monoblack, or massacre if they are playing plains.

drown in sorrow is sweet and it would most likely be my sweeper of choice if toxic deluge wasn't a card, deluge also has applications against other decks, i once killed a griselbrand with it against reanimator(normally, he could've digged for a counter but the demon was needled)..and many times in my games, a large enough tarmagoyf would survive drown's -2/-2..further more, in todays meta where anglers and tasigurs are the rage, i feel safer with deluge because its a more catch-all card..

[zenitramleirdag]

I think jund just gets better too. I had a hard time beating the tempo decks (mostly esper mentor) in my small testing data. Gurmag angler is a real threat and mentor is very good. Honestly, getting probe/therapy on my hexmage/rotation was sick. I had a turn 3 marit lage and I already ripped stp out with inquisition. Those are the breaks. I hope jund steps in and starts squashing the tempo decks down again, and it kind of makes me want to play a more traditional loam pox list with bloodghasts, innocent blood, and deeds main again. I am not giving up on depths just yet though, and maybe its a sideboard strategy (transformational) as it only takes up 6 slots without hexmage.

For now, I'll just go with my current list. Maindeck darkblast or disfigure may help fill in for the missing innocent bloods (missing that early cheap removal).

jund is a tough match up for mono black pox since they have more answer to our threats than we have to theirs..cursed scroll(abrupt decay and Kolaghan's Command), liliana(abrupt decay and burn spells), mishra's factory(wasteland), nether spirit(Deathrite Shaman, Scavenging Ooze)..

still, i would rather grind it with fair decks like JUND than be paired with any combo or control deck with DTT..

if i'm expecting a lotta JUND, i sometimes replace a scroll with a haunted platemail since its immune to abrupt decay and is beyond bolt range(though it till dies to kolloghans) and can sometimes go toe to toe with a goyf..against jund, i like perish since it can hit ALL of their creatures except for dark confidant..still, i think b/g loam pox is stronger against JUND than mono black pox..

if esper mentor's tokens giving you the fits, you might wanna consider dread of night, it also gives you game against death and taxes..


i usually have good game against esper mentor since I run 2 Night of Soul's Betrayal and a singleton engineered plague in the main..and another 2 copies of plague in the board..a resolved plague naming monk with an NoSB in play almost shuts down the deck..though they still have a jace to win with..
esper mentor is also very land light, so LD really hurts them..but i think the deck has really lost a lotta power after DTT got axed..

[OmniStrata]

Black Vise + Contamination is like... mega intense. What's more, it ensures a very fast clock that's practically impossible to interact with. Ophiomancer works, but only without Night of Souls' Betrayal. Engineered Plague still pulls heavy weight and what's more, Ensnaring Bridge allows me to laugh at any creature (rare exceptions being 0 power creatures being buffed just before damage)

I've got to find a way to squeeze in Trinisphere, Sphere of Resistance, and the glue to hold it all together, the old school Dimir Machinations... :laugh:

I think I'll push Liliana to the Sideboard and bring her out vs. Combo. Or maybe not even since the Spheres make combo auto lose once resolved. Hymn is pushed out, whoever mentioned Encroach just added to my shopping list (and yes, that card sounds broken as hell vs. a mana denial specialty deck)

[Ralf]

Or maybe not even since the Spheres make combo auto lose once resolved. Hymn is pushed out, whoever mentioned Encroach just added to my shopping list (and yes, that card sounds broken as hell vs. a mana denial specialty deck)

Go back by a page.

What is even better (aside the main denial purpose) with "encroach" is that you can even use it to protect some of your utility land.
Last night for example, I took out a wasteland my opponent was holding and I was able to win a game where I stalled long enough with my maze of ith against a tarmo + a delver.
Nonetheless, the card is dead sometimes.
Well time will tell if it is a staple or not.

Happy testing.

[PirateKing]

I think you should read Nether Void again.
The problem is that it does not prevent your opponent from playing cards at all (unlike Trinisphere) and you want your opponent to keep cards in hand.

Nevertheless, you might be right about combo MU. The SB is maybe too much oriented about dealing with creature.

I'm aware they can still play cards, but if my opponent is just throwing away spells to avoid getting stung with Black Vice, that's a fine trade for me.

[OmniStrata]

Just for laughs, assuming not a turn 1 combo killer opponent:

Turn 1: Dark Ritual, Black Vice x3 I choose you!
Turn 2: Sign in Blood, targeting you. Good Game? :cool:

One predicament I see is Pox is designed to deny all lands, all, creatures, and all hands. Black Vice, unlike the Rack, wants us to work against the 'deny hands' portion of Pox which also means we may need to kick out Liliana's sexy self. Though is the dis-synergy that 'unworkable'? Liliana's Ultimate still hits lands. I'm thinking Howling Mine or something crazy now... *facedesk*

[OmniStrata]

Win Condition (8)
2 Nether Spirit
3 Black Vise
2 Chimeric Idol
1 Ophiomancer

Pox FX (11)
4 Innocent Blood
4 Smallpox
3 Pox

Disruption (12)
4 Wasteland
4 Encroach
4 Sinkhole

Support/Bomb (6)
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Engineered Plague
1 Koskun Falls
3 Dimir Machinations

Land/Mana (23)
4 Dark Ritual
1 Maze of Ith
1 Buried Ruin
1 Cabal Pit
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
12 Snow-Covered Swamp

Sideboard
2 Pithing Needle
4 Contamination
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Engineered Plague
2 Extirpate
2 Leyline of the Void

Ok, forget the Howling Mines idea. I've got some cards I need to buy to try out now. :laugh:

[Stroggi]

A deck playing Black Vise and Crucible of Worlds seems like a good deck to have Ghost Quarter in, as an addition to Wasteland that can kill their basics.

[Hardcore]

black vice and chalice and 3sphere and goblin welder and...

iow, there are better shells for it than pox. stax, DnT for example.

[Mr. Safety]

drown in sorrow is sweet and it would most likely be my sweeper of choice if toxic deluge wasn't a card, deluge also has applications against other decks, i once killed a griselbrand with it against reanimator(normally, he could've digged for a counter but the demon was needled)..and many times in my games, a large enough tarmagoyf would survive drown's -2/-2..further more, in todays meta where anglers and tasigurs are the rage, i feel safer with deluge because its a more catch-all card..

I keep forgetting that toxic deluge is a card. It is indeed better. I play a lot of modern and I can get my formats mixed up.

For my deck, I think I may be a little too committed to the combo. Four hexmage and four rotation means I have more dead draws if I can'tfinish the puzzle. I think I need to cut back to 3 of each and work in more redundancy. Also, has anyone tried Grisly Salvage in loam pox? I daresay it might be better than sylvan library due to the unfortunate library/deed interaction. It also digs 5 deep, which isn't insignificant even if it does cost 2 mana.

[Hardcore]

I figure one or two in your deck wouldn't hurt.

[Toxboy]

I keep forgetting that toxic deluge is a card. It is indeed better. I play a lot of modern and I can get my formats mixed up.

For my deck, I think I may be a little too committed to the combo. Four hexmage and four rotation means I have more dead draws if I can'tfinish the puzzle. I think I need to cut back to 3 of each and work in more redundancy. Also, has anyone tried Grisly Salvage in loam pox? I daresay it might be better than sylvan library due to the unfortunate library/deed interaction. It also digs 5 deep, which isn't insignificant even if it does cost 2 mana.

I tried Grisly, and if you are actually looking for creatures as well it might be it's better, but it's a long shot if you are digging for lands since you can't really afford to use that mana without commiting to the board.

Sylvan is looking at more cards after just 1 turn with a fetch and 3 without it, but I think even that is to slow for pox personally, but I'm also playing pernicious deed main which hates out my own card. Finally the biggest disadvantage is that it can miss (unlikely but pretty much lose after that) and if you are behind it can't find you an out in the same way a crop rotation for example.

[PirateKing]

Just for laughs, assuming not a turn 1 combo killer opponent:

Turn 1: Dark Ritual, Black Vice x3 I choose you!
Turn 2: Sign in Blood, targeting you. Good Game? :cool:

One predicament I see is Pox is designed to deny all lands, all, creatures, and all hands. Black Vice, unlike the Rack, wants us to work against the 'deny hands' portion of Pox which also means we may need to kick out Liliana's sexy self. Though is the dis-synergy that 'unworkable'? Liliana's Ultimate still hits lands. I'm thinking Howling Mine or something crazy now... *facedesk*

The thing I've found is that there are two different faces to the same Pox coin. There are the 8rack decks that want their opponent's hand empty, to the point that Sinkhole, Wasteland and even Smallpox end up hindering their agenda by stunting their opponent's plays and leaving them with unplayable cards in hand. The more classic Pox decks on the other hand, don't much care if you have a hand full of business, as long an you can't act on any of it while a Mishra's Factory beats you down over 10 turns. If you're to take that to an extreme, you'd get the polar opposite of the 8rack decks, one where you're focus is on the lands and otherwise playability of your opponent's cards, things like Trinisphere and Wasteland and Sinkhole. While I agree with others that it might not be a Pox deck per se, more of a prison stax or even a Blood Moon style deck, any use of Black Vice should not look for the traditional balanced hate of Smallpox and decks built like it.

[Mr. Safety]

I tried Grisly, and if you are actually looking for creatures as well it might be it's better, but it's a long shot if you are digging for lands since you can't really afford to use that mana without commiting to the board.

Sylvan is looking at more cards after just 1 turn with a fetch and 3 without it, but I think even that is to slow for pox personally, but I'm also playing pernici

ous deed main which hates out my own card. Finally the biggest disadvantage is that it can miss (unlikely but pretty much lose after that) and if you are behind it can't find you an out in the same way a crop rotation for example.

Tested a singleton today and one thing it doesn't get is crop rotation...and for that reason I think it isn't good enough. It was decent while ahead, not great while behind. Overall, mediocre and that doesn't cut it. I am going to put another pulse in its place.

This was my list for today:

4x hexmage
1x eternal witness
1x shriekmaw

4x crop rotation
3x thoughtseize
3x inquisition of kozilek
1x ravens crime
4x smallpox
3x loam
3x abrupt decay
1x maelstrom pulse
1x pernicious deed
2x sylvan library
1x grisly salvage

4x verdant catacombs
1x marsh flats
1x bayou
2x overgrown tomb
1x woodland cemetery
4x wasteland
1x dark depths
1x thespians stage
1x volraths stronghold
1x cabal pit
2x swamp
1x forest
3x urborg
3x barren moor

Sideboard

3x golgari charm
2x pithing needle
2x deed
2x surgical extraction
1x bojuka bog
1x glacial chasm
1x grave titan
2x choke
1x darkblast

I liked the deck a lot, but I don't feel the need for ravens crime and 61 cards. I would play 61 but only for another land, probably maze if ith or a 4th barren moor. I don't have access to tabernacle, so that's not an option. I liked shriekmaw, or rather the idea of shriekmaw, but I will be cutting it. It has one huge weakness: it doesn't kill deathrite shaman. The witness was amazing however, that stays.

My thoughts are:
-1 grisly salvage
-1 shriekmaw
-1 ravens crime
-1 deed (main)

+ 1 maelstrom pulse
+2 disfigure/innocent blood
+1 maze/moor

I'll do the moor for now until I can get the maze, and I'm leaning towards disfigure for deathrite as opposed to blood.

As always, comments welcome.

I went 2-1, beat a green-based turbo eldrazi deck (no blue) and a modern mono-blue tron deck that someone brought to a legacy event. Loam/waste lock was brutal against both. I lost to a nic-fit variant that played a bunch of planeswalkers and grave titans.
Has anyone tried Garruk Relentless before? Seems decent, similar to worm harvest but not grave dependent.

[Toxboy]

Tested a singleton today and one thing it doesn't get is crop rotation...and for that reason I think it isn't good enough. It was decent while ahead, not great while behind. Overall, mediocre and that doesn't cut it. I am going to put another pulse in its place.

This was my list for today:

4x hexmage
1x eternal witness
1x shriekmaw

4x crop rotation
3x thoughtseize
3x inquisition of kozilek
1x ravens crime
4x smallpox
3x loam
3x abrupt decay
1x maelstrom pulse
1x pernicious deed
2x sylvan library
1x grisly salvage

4x verdant catacombs
1x marsh flats
1x bayou
2x overgrown tomb
1x woodland cemetery
4x wasteland
1x dark depths
1x thespians stage
1x volraths stronghold
1x cabal pit
2x swamp
1x forest
3x urborg
3x barren moor

Sideboard

3x golgari charm
2x pithing needle
2x deed
2x surgical extraction
1x bojuka bog
1x glacial chasm
1x grave titan
2x choke
1x darkblast

I liked the deck a lot, but I don't feel the need for ravens crime and 61 cards. I would play 61 but only for another land, probably maze if ith or a 4th barren moor. I don't have access to tabernacle, so that's not an option. I liked shriekmaw, or rather the idea of shriekmaw, but I will be cutting it. It has one huge weakness: it doesn't kill deathrite shaman. The witness was amazing however, that stays.

My thoughts are:
-1 grisly salvage
-1 shriekmaw
-1 ravens crime
-1 deed (main)

+ 1 maelstrom pulse
+2 disfigure/innocent blood
+1 maze/moor

I'll do the moor for now until I can get the maze, and I'm leaning towards disfigure for deathrite as opposed to blood.

As always, comments welcome.

I went 2-1, beat a green-based turbo eldrazi deck (no blue) and a modern mono-blue tron deck that someone brought to a legacy event. Loam/waste lock was brutal against both. I lost to a nic-fit variant that played a bunch of planeswalkers and grave titans.
Has anyone tried Garruk Relentless before? Seems decent, similar to worm harvest but not grave dependent.

I've tried garruk before and he's a fine alternative win condition since he doesn't die to grave hate. Oddly enough I say he's bad? vs Miracles, but he's not really. If a Miracle player knows what they are doing he's probably winning through a garruk pretty easily, but if he's unclear what your deck is doing he will probably lose in a short fashion to the army you are making.

The biggest problem is that he almost solves alot of problems, he doesn't quite handle alot of threats optimally since he merely chumps anglers and goyf and will die if he kills clique or flipped delvers.

Though I love him in general and will probably start playing one since the ban of DTT, I believe he may be better in your deck since you don't mainly try to build and army but can also find relevant creatures with him.

[Mr. Safety]

I think you're confusing relentless with primal Hunter. I'm talking about the flip one from innistrad that deals 3 damage to a creature then flips if loyalty less than 3, makes 2/2 wolves every turn, or when flips makes 1/1 deathtouch wolves and -1 search up a creature.. He only needs 3G to be cast, primal hunter needs a whopping 2GGG to cast. It isn't realistic, even eternal witness is a stretch sometimes.

[Toxboy]

I think you're confusing relentless with primal Hunter. I'm talking about the flip one from innistrad that deals 3 damage to a creature then flips if loyalty less than 3, makes 2/2 wolves every turn, or when flips makes 1/1 deathtouch wolves and -1 search up a creature.. He only needs 3G to be cast, primal hunter needs a whopping 2GGG to cast. It isn't realistic, even eternal witness is a stretch sometimes.

We're talking about the same one

My deck can only use the 0 on his first side and I have no use what so ever (almost for his) -1 and ultimate on the flip side since I play at most 2 creatures in my deck.

Also he dies to killing clique and delver alot.

He also basically cost 5 mana vs DnT since they usually have Thalia or Wingmare in play.

The building an army part mainly refers to making 2/2 creatures

[Mr. Safety]

Gotcha

Edit: how about Garruk Wildspeaker? The mana boost is relevent when wanting to loam and do other stuff the same turn. Untapping and playing smallpox seems good.

[Chiptoon]

I went 2-2 in a tournament today before dropping. I was rocking Mono Black with a makeshift sideboard and I kinda paid for some sloppy play. I got matched up with Elves twice, Death & Taxes, and Imperial Taxes. I really had issues with 2 toughness creatures today as Engineered Plague and Night of Souls' Betrayal were good just not against Deathrite and Stoneforge. How do the Mono Black players board against D&T? I was taking out Sinkhole and I feel like that might have been a mistake.

[jredelstein]

We're talking about the same one

My deck can only use the 0 on his first side and I have no use what so ever (almost for his) -1 and ultimate on the flip side since I play at most 2 creatures in my deck.

Also he dies to killing clique and delver alot.

He also basically cost 5 mana vs DnT since they usually have Thalia or Wingmare in play.

The building an army part mainly refers to making 2/2 creatures

I absolutely love Garruk Relentless especially against Miracles. I would never bring him in against a Delver deck or Death and Taxes, but he is good against Stoneblade and Miracles. The only answer Miracles has to him is Council's Judgment which are overloaded because of Liliana of the Veil. I also tend to bring him in against Combo as a finisher but that is mostly because I have so much to take out, Abrupt Decay, Pernicious Deed, Maelstrom Pulse, Cabal Pit

I think Garruk Wildspeaker is probably not worth it, we are not going to have a bunch of cards to play on turn 4 or 5 that we want to mana ramp in order to play multiple things, recurring loam is the only thing I could think of, so your 3-4 Barren Moor deck maybe could take better advantage of it than my build. Otherwise you are using the -1 as many times as you can to make an army which I like Garruk Relentless better for, especially because it is easier to cast and can kill things if need be.

[zenitramleirdag]

I went 2-2 in a tournament today before dropping. I was rocking Mono Black with a makeshift sideboard and I kinda paid for some sloppy play. I got matched up with Elves twice, Death & Taxes, and Imperial Taxes. I really had issues with 2 toughness creatures today as Engineered Plague and Night of Souls' Betrayal were good just not against Deathrite and Stoneforge. How do the Mono Black players board against D&T? I was taking out Sinkhole and I feel like that might have been a mistake.

i remember reid once ran darkblast in his board the same time he was also running night of soul's betrayals and engineered plagues in his 75..

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27553_High-Impact-Cards.html


..darkblast becomes stronger with either of those in play, you can even kill 3 toughness creatures if you dredge it..

against death and taxes, i name humans with with my engineered plagues, it almost always makes 8 cards in their deck uncastable dead draws, almost all DnT lists run 4 mother of runes and 4 thalias..some lists run Mirran Crusader, Ethersworn Canonist and sometimes even Imperial Recruiter and Magus of the Moon which are all humans..
i may board out a copy of hymn and sinkhole to make room for more removal spells..
dread of night is good against them..and virtue's ruin too..

[kingtk3]

What do you think of ob nixilis reignited as a single copy in mono black lists? He is a CA engine, removal and win condition packed in a single card, much like Jace (but obviously weaker).

[zenitramleirdag]

What do you think of ob nixilis reignited as a single copy in mono black lists? He is a CA engine, removal and win condition packed in a single card, much like Jace (but obviously weaker).

his first 2 abilities are relevant to our deck, but that 5 cmc could be a deal breaker..
i'm not sure how reliably we can cast this at 5..
wouldn't we be better off with bottled cloisted or even phyrexian arena?
i'm not sure..but i'm willing to give this card a try..

[kingtk3]

I've never played Pox before but I would like to try a monoblack version, something like this:

4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited

13 Swamp
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

2 Cursed Scroll
4 The Rack
1 The Abyss
1 Crucible of World
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Smallpox
3 Thoughtseize
4 Sinkhole

SIDE:
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Helm of Obedience
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Spinning Darkness
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
2 Duress


What do you think? Are there any obvious mistakes in the list?

Thanks.

[rlesko]

I think you have too much hand disruption, it looks more like modern 8 rack lists. Ob Nixilis seems clunky at 5 mana and no dark rituals. I don't see why not just include 1 Nether Spirit in there somewhere.

[kingtk3]

Given that I would like to test Ob Nixilis, what changes would you apply to my list?

Thank you.

[PirateKing]

The Rack doesn't play nice with Sinkhole and Wasteland. You're going to ruin their mana and they'll be stuck with cards in hand and you'll have a wasted slot. Dark Ritual is a glaring omission from that list. One or two copies of Nether Spirit would also be good.

[kingtk3]

So you suggest to change the racks with dark rituals? There will be enough win conditions? Would'nt the rituals be dead anyway in top deck?

Thanks for all the advices!!!

[PirateKing]

They can be, yes, but they're less dead then The Rack over all circumstances. If you want to run a Rack deck, look at some of the 8rack decks, they look similar, but their different priorities make them play out differently. Pox isn't a sprint, its the toughest of marathons. Most times my life sheet has my opponent going from 20 to 0 in increments of 2. Doesn't make for flashy games, but you're at the wrong place for pizzazz.

[jredelstein]

So you have 3 mana, a targeted discard spell, and a Hymn to Tourach, what order do you play them in?


Could depend on turn and opponent deck and handsize. But I tend to lead with the targeted discard, but I am wondering your thoughts.

[PirateKing]

Depends if I think they have Daze or Spell Peirce. Hymn first and targeted second gets better value in a vacuum, but that's hardly ever the environment that you're playing. So if you fear they'll have a response, targeted first is safer. If it's nothing but sorcery speed nonsense, then Hymn first.

[tescrin]

Targeted always.

Targeted can't hit lands but Hymn can. If you Hymn first you risk missing with your Targeted purely because you hit the same cards with hymn. If you Target First you can also see if it's worth hymning yet; or wait until a little bit later. The odd opponent who plays Baloth, Dredge, Reanimator, or Loam or something also won't get a free win off of you feeding him.

Not only that, but if you want lucky-land-screws you want to minimize the number of non-lands in their hand; again Target First gives you the better chance here.


EDIT: See later pages. Targeted First against Fair decks. In general, Hymn has better probabilities against Combo if you use it first.

[Hardcore]

How would Encroach do as the 1cc discard in decks running Sinkhole?
I have not had the cards to test that myself.

[rlesko]

Given that I would like to test Ob Nixilis, what changes would you apply to my list?

Thank you.

I would go down to 8 hand disruption spells (4 1cc of your preference, 4 Hymn), remove Rack (4), add Dark ritual (4), add a Nether Spirit, and then add whatever you want in the remaining slots, in accordance with your play style.

[rlesko]

Depends if I think they have Daze or Spell Peirce. Hymn first and targeted second gets better value in a vacuum, but that's hardly ever the environment that you're playing. So if you fear they'll have a response, targeted first is safer. If it's nothing but sorcery speed nonsense, then Hymn first.

I don't see how hymn first is better value in a vacuum? See below for my thoughts exactly.


Targeted always.

Targeted can't hit lands but Hymn can. If you Hymn first you risk missing with your Targeted purely because you hit the same cards with hymn. If you Target First you can also see if it's worth hymning yet; or wait until a little bit later. The odd opponent who plays Baloth, Dredge, Reanimator, or Loam or something also won't get a free win off of you feeding him.

Not only that, but if you want lucky-land-screws you want to minimize the number of non-lands in their hand; again Target First gives you the better chance here.

[tescrin]

How would Encroach do as the 1cc discard in decks running Sinkhole?
I have not had the cards to test that myself.

Encroach has the issue of missing more so than other discard. A mere one third of their deck or less is the target, and it's the section of their deck they will play immediately every turn that they have the option. It has little use against combo and can miss even with lands in their hand (Omni, Sneak, D&T, etc..)

[zenitramleirdag]

I've never played Pox before but I would like to try a monoblack version, something like this:

4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited

13 Swamp
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

2 Cursed Scroll
4 The Rack
1 The Abyss
1 Crucible of World
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Smallpox
3 Thoughtseize
4 Sinkhole

SIDE:
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Helm of Obedience
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Spinning Darkness
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
2 Duress


What do you think? Are there any obvious mistakes in the list?

Thanks.

it would be easier for us to evaluate your list if you explained the kind of meta that you're playing in..what kinds of decks are you expecting to go up against? what matchups do you find difficult? etc..

just posting a list and asking if its good or not is very difficult to answer, and the answers you'd most likely get would be based on the player's personal observation or experience in his or or her own meta which could be a lot different from yours..

there are many things to consider before anyone can conclude whether its a good list or not..

but to answer your question at least, i think you might be running more discard than you need, i personally wouldn't go beyond 8 discard spells(in any combination of IOK, thoughtseize and hymn) in the main..but then again, the meta you're playing in might be saturated with combo so i wouldn't know how useful might advise to you would be..

[zenitramleirdag]

infect and decks with lingering souls, monastery mentor and young pyromancer are common in my meta now..i'm relegating my toxic deluge to the board and might revert back to the old reid duke configuration with night of soul's betrayal and engineered plague in the main..

other than jace, tms..the 2 cards in legacy right now that can really hurt me are chalice of the void(set at :1:) and pithing needle(naming scroll or factory)..so i'm including 1-2 copies of ratchet bomb again at the side to have a possible out to these..

i'm a little light on gravehate right now with just 2 extirpates and a lone surgical extraction..coz i made room for the ratchets..i would like to have 4-of leylines in my board but i'm expecting more control and combo than graveyard based strategies next tourney so i geared my 75 for those specific matchups instead..

[kingtk3]

Played a small local tornament yersterday night with this list:

4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited

13 Swamp
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

3 Dark Ritual
2 Cursed Scroll
2 The Rack
1 The Abyss
1 Crucible of World
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Smallpox
3 Thoughtseize
4 Sinkhole

SIDE:
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Helm of Obedience
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Spinning Darkness
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Duress
1 Toxic Deluge


Match 1 vs Burn, 0-2: he punches me a little with some creature then burns me both game. I sided in the spinning darkness but there's little a could do. How do you approach this matchup?

Match 2 vs... Bye: honestly, the worst thing it can happen you when you want to test a new deck T_T

Match 3 vs Miracle, 2-1: game 1 I win with the rack and discard, game 3 he enstablishes counterlock quick and I draw a couple of lands too much to keep me in the game, game 3 discard smallpox and land destruction win.

Match 4 vs Shardless BUG, 0-2: he begins suspending ancestral vision, I discard his hand with touraches and when vision resolves I smallpox his goyf (basically negating the vision). However in top deck he play land, land goyf, shardless into goyf GG. Game 2 I begin with a swamp and 2 colorless lands, thoughtseize, inquisition, innocent blood and liliana. I fail to see a second black source while drawing all double black spells...

Changes I plan to the deck:
-2 the rack, -1 thoughtseize, -1 inquisition
+1 hymn, +1 dark ritual, +2 ???

I would like to play something with an impact on the game because in topdeck mode this deck kind of sucks, maybe Empty the Pits? We don't really depend on the grave and can be fuelled with dark rituals which, in late game, are dead draws.

I'm open to your criticism.

[Hardcore]

Tom Ross wrote that it was important to draw first when playing pox. That is: to always choose going second.
Comments on that?

[zenitramleirdag]

Played a small local tornament yersterday night with this list:

4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited

13 Swamp
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

3 Dark Ritual
2 Cursed Scroll
2 The Rack
1 The Abyss
1 Crucible of World
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Smallpox
3 Thoughtseize
4 Sinkhole

SIDE:
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Helm of Obedience
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Spinning Darkness
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Duress
1 Toxic Deluge


Match 1 vs Burn, 0-2: he punches me a little with some creature then burns me both game. I sided in the spinning darkness but there's little a could do. How do you approach this matchup?

Match 2 vs... Bye: honestly, the worst thing it can happen you when you want to test a new deck T_T

Match 3 vs Miracle, 2-1: game 1 I win with the rack and discard, game 3 he enstablishes counterlock quick and I draw a couple of lands too much to keep me in the game, game 3 discard smallpox and land destruction win.

Match 4 vs Shardless BUG, 0-2: he begins suspending ancestral vision, I discard his hand with touraches and when vision resolves I smallpox his goyf (basically negating the vision). However in top deck he play land, land goyf, shardless into goyf GG. Game 2 I begin with a swamp and 2 colorless lands, thoughtseize, inquisition, innocent blood and liliana. I fail to see a second black source while drawing all double black spells...

Changes I plan to the deck:
-2 the rack, -1 thoughtseize, -1 inquisition
+1 hymn, +1 dark ritual, +2 ???

I would like to play something with an impact on the game because in topdeck mode this deck kind of sucks, maybe Empty the Pits? We don't really depend on the grave and can be fuelled with dark rituals which, in late game, are dead draws.

I'm open to your criticism.

@burn
-this is really a tough matchup, especially since you're also running thoughtseizes which are bad against them..if you feel that spinning darkness ain't enough then a couple of void or sphere effects can help you against them, a 1st turn trinisphere followed by land destruction sometimes makes it very difficult for them to come back while you beat face with the factories..take note that in an emergency situation, you can cast spinning darkness on one of your factories to save you from a lethal direct damage spell..


@miracles
-miracles is a tough matchup so congrats on winning this one..pithing needle on top slows them, though they still have jace for you to worry about..try to keep them off 4 mana as best as you can..its very difficult to win against them once jace hits the battlefield..i'm curious why you aren't running needles in your sideboard, it helps a lot against decks we have a difficult time against..more discard spells post board help..


@shardless
-ancestral visions really hurts our deck, i remember reid duke once ran bottled cloister to match bug's card advantage..i like boarding out my rituals against bug for more business spells/removal..



i personally haven't tried the leyline of the void/helm of obedience package..how's it working for you?

[kingtk3]

Tom Ross wrote that it was important to draw first when playing pox. That is: to always choose going second.
Comments on that?

I suppose that The Boss plays a Rack version of the deck (ins't him?), in this case I think the reasoning is to give your opponent less draw steps possible. You conceide him the first play but in theory this plays in your strategy:

Opponent begins
Turn1 - he plays a land and a 1 mana drop. Total hand sizes = 5 (him) / 7 (you)
Turn2 - you draw a card, play a land and a discard. Total hand sizes = 4 / 6
Turn3 - he plays a land and a 2 mana drop; if he doesn't play anything is good anyway because he is not applying pressure and we can handle cards in hand. Total hand sizes = 3 / 6
Turn4 - you play a land and a discard; if you have a rack to play along you start doing damage. Total hand sizes = 2 / 5
...

You begin
Turn1 - you play a land and a discard. Total hand sizes = 6 (him) / 5 (you)
Turn2 - he draws, plays a land and a 1 mana drop. Total hand sizes = 5 / 5
Turn3 - you play a land and a discard. Total hand sizes = 4 / 4
Turn4 - he plays a land and a 2 mana drop. Total hand sizes = 3 / 4
...

In the second scenario the Pox player has a very little advantage in cards in hand, but the opponent has 2 drops. In the first scenario the pox player has double the oppoent's cards in hand, so he can manage those drops and go on the offensive.

Obviously this is a simple case, I'm not doing any probabilty math, but I think this is the reason behind Tom's words.

[kingtk3]

@burn
-this is really a tough matchup, especially since you're also running thoughtseizes which are bad against them..if you feel that spinning darkness ain't enough then a couple of void or sphere effects can help you against them, a 1st turn trinisphere followed by land destruction sometimes makes it very difficult for them to come back while you beat face with the factories..take note that in an emergency situation, you can cast spinning darkness on one of your factories to save you from a lethal direct damage spell..


@miracles
-miracles is a tough matchup so congrats on winning this one..pithing needle on top slows them, though they still have jace for you to worry about..try to keep them off 4 mana as best as you can..its very difficult to win against them once jace hits the battlefield..i'm curious why you aren't running needles in your sideboard, it helps a lot against decks we have a difficult time against..more discard spells post board help..


@shardless
-ancestral visions really hurts our deck, i remember reid duke once ran bottled cloister to match bug's card advantage..i like boarding out my rituals against bug for more business spells/removal..



i personally haven't tried the leyline of the void/helm of obedience package..how's it working for you?

I think leyline is one of the best, if not the best, anti grave card, especially in a black deck that runs dark rituals. After setting my mind on Leyline playing a couple of helms as an additional wincon is not mandatory but just something to test.
Just remember that helm is good even alone in certain matchups like miracle (yesterday the miracle player countered my helm even if I didn't have leyline in play)

I see however that maybe my side isn't well build: can you advise my on some "standard" 15s?


Thank you!

[jredelstein]

Tom Ross wrote that it was important to draw first when playing pox. That is: to always choose going second.
Comments on that?

Maybe in Modern 8-rack lists, I think it absolutely wrong for legacy(especially GB Pox). Being on the play makes Smallpox so much more potent, and that is usually our best card. It is interesting in theory, they don't draw a card turn 1 and we get to draw which is one less card we need to answer and 1 card sooner they are hellbent. But in my experience Pox players will lose far more often to early pressure rather than early card advantage.

[jredelstein]

Targeted always.

Targeted can't hit lands but Hymn can. If you Hymn first you risk missing with your Targeted purely because you hit the same cards with hymn. If you Target First you can also see if it's worth hymning yet; or wait until a little bit later. The odd opponent who plays Baloth, Dredge, Reanimator, or Loam or something also won't get a free win off of you feeding him.

Not only that, but if you want lucky-land-screws you want to minimize the number of non-lands in their hand; again Target First gives you the better chance here.

This is my reasoning for leading with targeted discard, it guarantees they are losing 3 cards, can clear the path for hymn and bait out counter-magic. I also play GB pox so I am only doing this on turn 3 or later.

For a Mono Black Pox with Dark Rituals I would make the argument that leading with the Hymn is better when playing on one of the first 2 turns. Leaving the targeted discard for last lets you make the most informed decision on what to take and this is more important when they have a full grip they would have on turn 1. For example if they have a hand of 2 lands, 2 Show and Tell, Griselbrand, Emrakul. Targeted discard into hymn is worse because if you take a creature they could be left with Show and Tell other Creature after Hymn. If you Hymn first, unless they pitch 2 lands you can take the other piece (2nd creature or 2nd Show and Tell)

[zenitramleirdag]

I see however that maybe my side isn't well build: can you advise my on some "standard" 15s?


Thank you!


uhm, depends on the kinds of decks you're preparing for..
my sideboard is constantly in flux but
i would always include at least 2 pithing needles..

[PirateKing]

I don't see how hymn first is better value in a vacuum? See below for my thoughts exactly.

Maximizing the odds of getting land out of a Hymn is not the relevance to be focusing on. Unless our opponent is playing Lands or some other atypical strategy, then the focus should be on business spells capable of affecting us. Even without looking yet, we can assume cards in their hand will have a natural priority of values, cards we would take first, second and so on with the targeted discard. So when we cast the targeted discard first, we will always be taking the same card, then cleaning up with Hymn. By casting Hymn first, we have the possibility of hitting the high value cards, and then picking the best of what remains to cripple them based on what is left. Even if we do not hit the high value cards, we can always get it with the targeted discard. So worst case of Hymn first is just as good as Hymn second.

[OmniStrata]

I think leyline is one of the best, if not the best, anti grave card, especially in a black deck that runs dark rituals. After setting my mind on Leyline playing a couple of helms as an additional wincon is not mandatory but just something to test.
Just remember that helm is good even alone in certain matchups like miracle (yesterday the miracle player countered my helm even if I didn't have leyline in play)

I see however that maybe my side isn't well build: can you advise my on some "standard" 15s?


Thank you!

The most prevalent weaknesses in Pox are GY usage, Creature Overload, and Non-creature/non-land permanents. For the standard 'cover your ass' Sideboard, it'd be...

2 Pithing Needle
2/3 Ratchet Bomb/Powder Keg/Plague Boiler (yikes)
4/3 Engineered Plague
2/3 Ensnaring Bridge
2/3 Leyline of the Void
2 Extirpate

Extirpate also has the hilarious ability to ruin SDT Miracles, but you need to be able to read your enemy well. I wouldn't consider Burn a 'weakness' per se and call it more of a Combo deck. I run Contamination to shut it off, and it does so very well. Still testing some ideas though.

As I thought, Black Vise is actually perfect for a pure land killing deck, Pox is a kill 'everything' deck so it doesn't work. Rack works even with Sinkhole/Wasteland since Liliana of the Veil is so sexy. She's in every Pox deck I can remember that's won so any card that dis-synergizes with the Mind-phucking Goddess is now a no-go for me... :( And I really liked Black Vise too *sniffle*

[rlesko]

Maximizing the odds of getting land out of a Hymn is not the relevance to be focusing on. Unless our opponent is playing Lands or some other atypical strategy, then the focus should be on business spells capable of affecting us. Even without looking yet, we can assume cards in their hand will have a natural priority of values, cards we would take first, second and so on with the targeted discard. So when we cast the targeted discard first, we will always be taking the same card, then cleaning up with Hymn. By casting Hymn first, we have the possibility of hitting the high value cards, and then picking the best of what remains to cripple them based on what is left. Even if we do not hit the high value cards, we can always get it with the targeted discard. So worst case of Hymn first is just as good as Hymn second.

I don't agree, there is upside to hitting lands, yes, but thats somewhat of a strawman argument on your part- you ignored the rest of what Tescrin said.

1. In the scenario you described you're ignoring the fact that your Hymn might not resolve. This is a very real concern in a blue dominated format like legacy where daze, spell pierce, and spell snare are rampant. By leading with a Inquisition you increase the chance your Hymn resolves.

2. You've ignored the fact that your 1cc spell is conditional. Assuming your 1cc spell is Inquisition of Kozilek, there is a nonzero chance you won't be any to take anything from your opponents hand, or be forced to take a sub optimal card. Jace, Force of Will, Sneak Attack, Omniscience, Batterskull, Dig Through Time before it was banned, etc. Assuming this is happening on turn 3, lets imagine your opponent has a 4 card hand. You hymn first. You get 2 cards. After you cast Inquisition, you become aware of a Jace/Sneak attack about to be slammed next turn. Damn, looks like you lost because if you cast inquisition first, there is a 66% chance you get the 4 cmc spell in their hand.

[Ralf]

So here is where I am after further testing:


2 Maze of Ith
2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
13 Swamp
1 Nether Spirit
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Black Vise
2 Toxic Deluge
4 Trinisphere
4 Dark Ritual
2 Rancid Earth
4 Encroach
4 Innocent Blood
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox

SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Nether Void
SB: 2 Spinning Darkness
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Braids, Cabal Minion
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
SB: 1 Helm of obedience


The deck is really nice to play with. Land is very hard before boarding (and even after that) but apart from this very specific MU, I don't fear any other MU right now.
The deck can be slow as hell but the lock is real.

Feel no fear !

[PirateKing]

I don't agree, there is upside to hitting lands, yes, but thats somewhat of a strawman argument on your part- you ignored the rest of what Tescrin said.

1. In the scenario you described you're ignoring the fact that your Hymn might not resolve. This is a very real concern in a blue dominated format like legacy where daze, spell pierce, and spell snare are rampant. By leading with a Inquisition you increase the chance your Hymn resolves.

2. You've ignored the fact that your 1cc spell is conditional. Assuming your 1cc spell is Inquisition of Kozilek, there is a nonzero chance you won't be any to take anything from your opponents hand, or be forced to take a sub optimal card. Jace, Force of Will, Sneak Attack, Omniscience, Batterskull, Dig Through Time before it was banned, etc. Assuming this is happening on turn 3, lets imagine your opponent has a 4 card hand. You hymn first. You get 2 cards. After you cast Inquisition, you become aware of a Jace/Sneak attack about to be slammed next turn. Damn, looks like you lost because if you cast inquisition first, there is a 66% chance you get the 4 cmc spell in their hand.

1. Don't be ignorant that my argument was prefaced under the modifier "in a vacuum". I stated in my original post that if I anticipate a Spell Perice or a Daze or any other effect that would threaten the Hymn, then the safer play would be to play Hymn after targeted discard. You quoted me saying this.

2. If the targeted discard is conditional, then it's conditional, and you take the same risk of whiffing on a 4 card hand as a 2 card hand. The fact that it is played represents that the conditions are an acceptable trade off to the effect. Using outlying examples isn't healthy advice. Many scenarios can be written to prove and disprove whatever it is that you want. The truth is that, taking their best card from a 7 card hand is weaker than taking their best card from a 5 card hand. Both times you are taking their best card. By casting Hymn first, you are making a more informed decision.

[rlesko]

1. Don't be ignorant that my argument was prefaced under the modifier "in a vacuum". I stated in my original post that if I anticipate a Spell Perice or a Daze or any other effect that would threaten the Hymn, then the safer play would be to play Hymn after targeted discard. You quoted me saying this.

I just reread your post and I still don't see any mention of effects threatening the resolution of the Hymn.



2. If the targeted discard is conditional, then it's conditional, and you take the same risk of whiffing on a 4 card hand as a 2 card hand. The fact that it is played represents that the conditions are an acceptable trade off to the effect.

Not following your math here at all. If an opponent has 4 cards in hand I have a much smaller chance of whiffing with inquisition than a 2 card hand.


Using outlying examples isn't healthy advice. Many scenarios can be written to prove and disprove whatever it is that you want. The truth is that, taking their best card from a 7 card hand is weaker than taking their best card from a 5 card hand. Both times you are taking their best card. By casting Hymn first, you are making a more informed decision.

My examples aren't outlying. Its just the fact of the matter that there are valuable spells cmc 4 or greater in Legacy, and if you're going to cast both spells in the same turn, there just simply isn't a reason to go Hymn -> IoK. Without knowing the content of their hand when you cast Hymn, you have no idea if you've hit important cards or not.

[Toxboy]

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/20-02-15-pox-loam/

link to my current build I will probably be playing this weekend, any obvious match up you think Will be played vs that may not be answered by
my current sideboard. (yes i know it's basically 13 one of answers but I like the versatility of being able to bring in alot of cards vs basically any match-up)

I gone up in removal since the banning of dig through time since I had SnT as a bad match-up. But now I should be able to concentrate less on locking opponents out through one and it should be enough just to stabilize.

I excpect the tournament to be alot of stoneblade, miracles and storm with about 60+ people

[tescrin]

2. If the targeted discard is conditional, then it's conditional, and you take the same risk of whiffing on a 4 card hand as a 2 card hand. The fact that it is played represents that the conditions are an acceptable trade off to the effect. Using outlying examples isn't healthy advice. Many scenarios can be written to prove and disprove whatever it is that you want. The truth is that, taking their best card from a 7 card hand is weaker than taking their best card from a 5 card hand. Both times you are taking their best card. By casting Hymn first, you are making a more informed decision.

There are several things wrong with this.

2a: As said above, if an opponent has 4 cards in hand, it is mathematically deterministic to say that it has a higher probability of containing a card of any subset your discard can hit. There is no way to argue against that without being actually wrong.

2b: You seem to think that the random probability is the same before and after the targeted discard. Leaving aside the obvious land problem, let's say they have 5 cards and you need to hit 2 of them to win:

EDIT: Fixed probabilities in Bold. This example was incorrect, see later post for correct examples and an explanation:
-Targeted discard first Hymn second gives you a 50% chance of doing this.
-Hymn first Targeted second gives you a 70% chance

[jroharo]

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/20-02-15-pox-loam/

link to my current build I will probably be playing this weekend, any obvious match up you think Will be played vs that may not be answered by
my current sideboard. (yes i know it's basically 13 one of answers but I like the versatility of being able to bring in alot of cards vs basically any match-up)

I gone up in removal since the banning of dig through time since I had SnT as a bad match-up. But now I should be able to concentrate less on locking opponents out through one and it should be enough just to stabilize.

I excpect the tournament to be alot of stoneblade, miracles and storm with about 60+ people

Any reason for only 3 Verdant Catacombs?

PS: loved your Lille list...revamped my loam pox list to reflect yours a couple weeks ago.

[Hardcore]

Sold my Chrome moxes today. They really are not useful.

[Toxboy]

Any reason for only 3 Verdant Catacombs?

PS: loved your Lille list...revamped my loam pox list to reflect yours a couple weeks ago.


The sideboard was transscripted incorrectly so some 1 miss there, I was in fact playing 1 engineered plague instead of explosives (though I thought about the explosives alot) there, the reason for 3 verdants is that i had 3 in the original list because I only owned 3 at the time and must have missed to update it on tapped out

[PirateKing]

Depends if I think they have Daze or Spell Peirce.
But hey, bliss right?

With regards to whiffing on Inquisition to the point that it matters, if we're talking about scenarios relative to Pox where our opponent is threatening a 4 cost card, then we've already blown the game. Conjecture and theorize all you want, but in the regards of Applied Legacy, the number of nonland cards with converted mana cost of 3 or less versus the number of those not isn't a close comparison. Sure, maybe they're playing Lands or Manaless Dredge or MUD or something where all choices are either bad or nonexistent. Or, maybe more likely they're playing the gobs and gobs of other decks that top out at CMC 3, whose entire deck is legal for Inquisition. So yeah there's a nonzero chance you Hymn and then after see only lands. But at that point we're well beyond significant digits.

As far as Hymn to Tourach, in the discussion of discard, those thinking it's played to "hit" cards are misunderstanding it's purpose. All Hymn is is card advantage. Unless they have two or less cards, you should never plan around Hymn getting anything that you want it to, because it might not. For example, you must assume using Liliana's +1 will result in them discarding the best choice they have, and since this isn't fucking EDH, their best choice is also your worst choice. This is why we don't play Dash Hopes or Temporal Extortion. Apply the same logic to any targeted discard. Your best choice will be the most crippling to them. Hymn's random selection places it squarely neutral in advantage between you and your opponent. It will offer the best outcome for both players an equal number of times. The whole reason it's played is because it's card advantage.

So as I stated before, in a vacuum, which means for those uncertain: without concern for countermagic or the opponent playing Nephilim Tribal or some bullshit; you will have a more educated choice by playing the Hymn first, thereby selecting the best choice of a smaller pool of options with the targeted discard. You will better guide the play of your opponent to an end which benefits you the most. Playing Hymn second, all you achieve is a hedged bet.

[tescrin]

With regards to whiffing on Inquisition to the point that it matters[...]
What on earth are you arguing here? My argument applies just as much to Thoughtseize as a IoK.



As far as Hymn to Tourach, in the discussion of discard, those thinking it's played to "hit" cards are misunderstanding it's purpose. [...]
The whole reason it's played is because it's card advantage.

Yes. And if you whiff with a 1-mana spell you just accrued needless card disadvantage.



So as I stated before, in a vacuum, which means for those uncertain: without concern for countermagic or the opponent playing Nephilim Tribal or some bullshit; you will have a more educated choice by playing the Hymn first, thereby selecting the best choice of a smaller pool of options with the targeted discard. You will better guide the play of your opponent to an end which benefits you the most. Playing Hymn second, all you achieve is a hedged bet.

:/
Let me put up some examples of where you are right and wrong.

Proof 1:
Imagine the opponent has 3 cards, 1 land.
Thoughtseize into hymn? You hit all three.
Hymn into thoughtseize? 33% Chance to whiff.


Proof 2:
Imagine the opponent has 4 cards, 1 non-land
Thoughtseize into hymn? You hit the card and you hit 2 lands.
Hymn into thoughtseize? 50% Chance to whiff.



Now, the counter examples (including my now corrected post before) have to do with requiring yourself to hit X cards in Y cards to win. This is because the ratio of positive hits to negative hits changes in a bad way if you TS first.

Counter 2:
Need to hit a specific 2 in 6:
Hymn First: 60% success
TS first: 40% success


So I will amend my statement:
If going for raw card advantage (fair decks most of the time) you want to Hymn Second.
If playing against Combo, you want to Hymn First.


EDIT: This was edited several times as a few of the maths were incorrect, things were rephrased accordingly.

[PirateKing]

Guidance on Inquisition wasn't directed at you, so cool that ego down. rlesko had the comments on Inquisition.

Once again, a successful Hymn is when you net +1 card advantage. Anything beyond that is gravy. So stop trying to stretch it into some super Duress or some shit. It's not. As far as casting Inquisition and seeing nothing but lands? That isn't a failure in any game I've played.

Let's say the have a 7 card hand, all are legal targets and all are relevant to you. If you cast the targeted first, you need to pick the best card from a field of 7. Then Hymn has a 1/3rd chance of taking the next best cards, leaving your opponent's next play up to chance. They get 4 cards to start their turn. If you Hymn first, you have a 2/7th chance of taking their best cards, then have the ability to take the best card from a field of 5. You are able to direct their line of play as best as you are able. They get the same number of cards at the start of their turn. So to the end of maximizing strategy, getting the most out of our targeted discard is the deciding factor. That's the whole point.

[jredelstein]

Let's say the have a 7 card hand, all are legal targets and all are relevant to you. If you cast the targeted first, you need to pick the best card from a field of 7. Then Hymn has a 1/3rd chance of taking the next best cards, leaving your opponent's next play up to chance. They get 4 cards to start their turn. If you Hymn first, you have a 2/7th chance of taking their best cards, then have the ability to take the best card from a field of 5. You are able to direct their line of play as best as you are able. They get the same number of cards at the start of their turn. So to the end of maximizing strategy, getting the most out of our targeted discard is the deciding factor. That's the whole point.

The whole point of the question is that there is no right answer and that the play is dependent on so many things(turn, cards in opponent hand, cards in your hand, opponent deck, etc).


As far as Hymn to Tourach, in the discussion of discard, those thinking it's played to "hit" cards are misunderstanding it's purpose. All Hymn is is card advantage.
Hymn to Tourach is a pure card advantage card, but we play it because it can act like anything from; better than 2 thoughtseize to just mind rot. Casting Mind Rot will never take there best card if they have more than 2 cards in hand, Hymn will take there best card a statistically significant amount of time.


Once again, a successful Hymn is when you net +1 card advantage. Anything beyond that is gravy. So stop trying to stretch it into some super Duress or some shit. It's not. As far as casting Inquisition and seeing nothing but lands? That isn't a failure in any game I've played.

If your 1 mana discard has no targets you have now spent 2 cards (hymn, 1 cmc discard) to take 2 cards (2 from hymn) and have therefore lost out on potential card advantage.

Playing Hymn first then targeted discard will leave you with the best chances of taking their best cards, assuming there is a target for the 1 mana discard and both spells resolve. There is a non-zero chance that either they counter a spell or your 1 mana discard has no valid targets post hymn.

So for me, if I believe that both spells will resolve and that the targeted discard will have a target, casting Hymn to Tourach first then targeted discard is the better play. (Example your opponent goes turn 1 basic plains, mother of runes; you go turn 1 land, dark ritual, hymn, 1 cmc discard. against Death and Taxes with 5 cards in hand I assume that Inquisition of Kozilek can hit post Hymn)

However I do not believe this to be the case in most scenarios I experience with my GB Pox, so I lead with targeted discard then Hymn.

[PirateKing]

...if I believe that both spells will resolve and that the targeted discard will have a target, casting Hymn to Tourach first then targeted discard is the better play.

There it is. Thanks.

[OmniStrata]

Holy crap.

Why would anyone wait to cast Inquisition of Kozilek? In a vacuum (no dark ritual, or other accel), if you don't Inquisition first, you die to that Blue Moon 1 shot kill from a combo deck. (Let's say you're on the play)

The 'proper' scenario is opening turns, because everyone knows that sorcery speed Discard is useless late game. Turn 1 Inqusition, turn 2 hymn. Can someone prove to me (without using examples since enemy decks can be well, anything) why it would be better to wait till turn 3 to cast your 2 best discard spells? If you're going to cast Hymn first, you have to wait till turn 3 to cast your Inquisition. If you're alive by turn 4-5 casting discard spells that don't whiff, you're fighting a 'fair deck' and then at that point, it's anyone's game.

This is confusing lolz :laugh:

And when it comes to gathering information, Hymn does nothing really for that objective. Nothing can beat "reveal your hand". Nothing.

On the Contamination front, Akroan Horse is clunky and too expensive for the CMC. Ophiomancer, is da Godsend. Now if I can squeeze in the Dimir Machinations combo-lock, not a fan of the card disadvantage though, things could get much scarier.

[zenitramleirdag]

Holy crap.

Why would anyone wait to cast Inquisition of Kozilek? In a vacuum (no dark ritual, or other accel), if you don't Inquisition first, you die to that Blue Moon 1 shot kill from a combo deck. (Let's say you're on the play)

The 'proper' scenario is opening turns, because everyone knows that sorcery speed Discard is useless late game. Turn 1 Inqusition, turn 2 hymn. Can someone prove to me (without using examples since enemy decks can be well, anything) why it would be better to wait till turn 3 to cast your 2 best discard spells? If you're going to cast Hymn first, you have to wait till turn 3 to cast your Inquisition. If you're alive by turn 4-5 casting discard spells that don't whiff, you're fighting a 'fair deck' and then at that point, it's anyone's game.

This is confusing lolz :laugh:

And when it comes to gathering information, Hymn does nothing really for that objective. Nothing can beat "reveal your hand". Nothing.

On the Contamination front, Akroan Horse is clunky and too expensive for the CMC. Ophiomancer, is da Godsend. Now if I can squeeze in the Dimir Machinations combo-lock, not a fan of the card disadvantage though, things could get much scarier.


ophiomancer is also a goyf deterrent..i hate trading my mishra's factories with my opponet's goyfs when i'm on defense and sometimes need to chump block..nether spirit is good in holding down goyfs but we run very few copies of it, mostly as a 1 or 2-of..
crucible of world's is also good against goyf decks since they make your factories more resilient..

[zenitramleirdag]

i would like to try the contamination route, are you running or have you considered running entomb as a virtual copy of nether spirit to guarantee a sac fodder? at 1-2-ofs, the spirit feels a little clunky and unreliable..
i'm still brainstorming though since i haven't tried it yet but right now i'm considering
crucible of worlds, a singleton mutavault and entomb, etc..

can you show me the list your working on right now omni?

[jredelstein]

Holy crap.

Why would anyone wait to cast Inquisition of Kozilek? In a vacuum (no dark ritual, or other accel), if you don't Inquisition first, you die to that Blue Moon 1 shot kill from a combo deck. (Let's say you're on the play)
...
This is confusing lolz :laugh:


It is a hypothetical question to spur a discussion on sequencing spells. The scenario is in no way encouraging waiting to play these cards it was just:
So you have 3 mana, a targeted discard spell, and a Hymn to Tourach, what order do you play them in?

Could depend on turn and opponent deck and handsize. But I tend to lead with the targeted discard, but I am wondering your thoughts.

It will most likely come up on turn 1 in mono black with a dark ritual. But I could be playing my GB Pox against delver and play turn 1 Inquisition into turn 2 smallpox(which gets dazed) and then turn 3 play IoK and Hymn. I could have also had a hand with 2 hymns and no Iok and drawn IoK on turn 3.

[jredelstein]

i would like to try the contamination route, are you running or have you considered running entomb as a virtual copy of nether spirit to guarantee a sac fodder? at 1-2-ofs, the spirit feels a little clunky and unreliable..
i'm still brainstorming though since i haven't tried it yet but right now i'm considering
crucible of worlds, a singleton mutavault and entomb, etc..

can you show me the list your working on right now omni?

May be clucky but it has some synergy with Crucible of Worlds, Entomb, and Ophiomancer but have you thought about Volrath's Stronghold?

[OmniStrata]

May be clucky but it has some synergy with Crucible of Worlds, Entomb, and Ophiomancer but have you thought about Volrath's Stronghold?

I've tested the Stronghold before with 'regular creatures'. Nether Spirit, Crucible + Manlands I've found to be less mana intensive. Neither option needs "3 mana" to use. I'd rather pump the mana into Cursed Scroll to kill my foe or snipe his top decked weenies. Nether Spirit + Manlands need no mana to come back, which is vital in a deck that blows up its own lands.

Stronghold I think would work better in a Green Splash that has giant cheap creatures like Tarmogoyf and Tempting Wurm or even a Suspended Dirkwood Baloth.

[OmniStrata]

i would like to try the contamination route, are you running or have you considered running entomb as a virtual copy of nether spirit to guarantee a sac fodder? at 1-2-ofs, the spirit feels a little clunky and unreliable..
i'm still brainstorming though since i haven't tried it yet but right now i'm considering
crucible of worlds, a singleton mutavault and entomb, etc..

can you show me the list your working on right now omni?


8 (Win Conditions)
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Cursed Scroll
1 Nether Spirit
1 Ophiomancer

8 (Discard)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach

8 (Land Destruction)
4 Wasteland
4 Sinkhole

9 (Pox FX )
4 Innocent Blood
4 Smallpox
1 Pox

4 (Planeswalkers)
4 Liliana of the Veil

3 (Support/Bombs)
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Dimir Machinations

20 (Mana/Land)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
12 Snow-Covered Swamp

15 (Sideboard)
2 Pithing Needle
2 Contamination
4 Engineered Plague
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Extirpate
2 Leyline of the Void


Very small changes here and there. Dimir Machinations can grab any and all 'bomb' cards in my deck to setup the lock AND ruin enemy top decks. Entomb only gets the Spirit which if Extirpated/Extracted, does nothing. Transmuting into Ophiomancer blanks any GY hate they have to stop my Contamination. It also counts as Pox 2-3, Liliana 5-6, Contamination 3-4, etc.

Looking back, this deck list is extremely tight. Had to sideboard the Plague and cut the Night of Souls' Betrayal. Despite me calling this Contamination Pox, it's brought out games 2 and 3 in case my enemy happens to be Mono-B, but splash decks like BUG can't function without their Green [no Abrupt Decay on the Liliana] and if you Pithing the DRS, you also stop top decked Jaces dead in their tracks.

Sinkholes and Wastelands maybe redundant but again, if they have black spells, direct land kill still helps.

[Hardcore]

only 16 lands?

[kingtk3]

There are the Mishra's too, so it makes 20 lands.

Why don't a single Contamination main deck if you are building the deck to support it?

[OmniStrata]

Contamination main deck runs the risk of possibly fighting a Mono-Black deck. In which case, you've wasted slots. Granted, maybe you're in an non-black meta, but still. It's a bomb card once you know what you're fighting, but performs poorly in multiples, or you can use it as time walks if you have space to run four. The Transmutes I'm testing to deal with consistency issues. I may be able to squeeze in a 3rd one, but I'm sure Dimir Machs is better as a top deck so 1-2 should suffice.

There's actually 24 lands in the deck, Wasteland, Mishra, Urborg is 12 lands. 12 Swamps. Snow-Covered because it's sexy like that. :laugh:

[kingtk3]

Contamination main deck runs the risk of possibly fighting a Mono-Black deck. In which case, you've wasted slots. Granted, maybe you're in an non-black meta, but still. It's a bomb card once you know what you're fighting, but performs poorly in multiples, or you can use it as time walks if you have space to run four. The Transmutes I'm testing to deal with consistency issues. I may be able to squeeze in a 3rd one, but I'm sure Dimir Machs is better as a top deck so 1-2 should suffice.

There's actually 24 lands in the deck, Wasteland, Mishra, Urborg is 12 lands. 12 Swamps. Snow-Covered because it's sexy like that. :laugh:

I meant that you could put one Contamination from the side into the maindeck as a target for the transmutes: having access to Contamination game 1 can be good and a single copy shouldn't hinder too much your black matchups.

[EtwasSteIne]

8 (Win Conditions)
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Cursed Scroll
1 Nether Spirit
1 Ophiomancer

8 (Discard)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach

8 (Land Destruction)
4 Wasteland
4 Sinkhole

9 (Pox FX )
4 Innocent Blood
4 Smallpox
1 Pox

4 (Planeswalkers)
4 Liliana of the Veil

3 (Support/Bombs)
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Dimir Machinations

20 (Mana/Land)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
12 Snow-Covered Swamp

15 (Sideboard)
2 Pithing Needle
2 Contamination
4 Engineered Plague
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Extirpate
2 Leyline of the Void


Very small changes here and there. Dimir Machinations can grab any and all 'bomb' cards in my deck to setup the lock AND ruin enemy top decks. Entomb only gets the Spirit which if Extirpated/Extracted, does nothing. Transmuting into Ophiomancer blanks any GY hate they have to stop my Contamination. It also counts as Pox 2-3, Liliana 5-6, Contamination 3-4, etc.

Looking back, this deck list is extremely tight. Had to sideboard the Plague and cut the Night of Souls' Betrayal. Despite me calling this Contamination Pox, it's brought out games 2 and 3 in case my enemy happens to be Mono-B, but splash decks like BUG can't function without their Green [no Abrupt Decay on the Liliana] and if you Pithing the DRS, you also stop top decked Jaces dead in their tracks.

Sinkholes and Wastelands maybe redundant but again, if they have black spells, direct land kill still helps.

Your list looks really good. It would be great to read about your contamination-plays.
Have you tried playing 1 Ensnaring Bridge main? Some decks cant handle it g1. (I would cut the big pox)

In your board I do miss some combo-hate (nether void, trinisphere, sphere of resistence). I would cut 2 plagues for something else. :-)

[OmniStrata]

Your list looks really good. It would be great to read about your contamination-plays.
Have you tried playing 1 Ensnaring Bridge main? Some decks cant handle it g1. (I would cut the big pox)

In your board I do miss some combo-hate (nether void, trinisphere, sphere of resistence). I would cut 2 plagues for something else. :-)

Believe it or not, turn 1 Liliana off a Dark Ritual is all the combo hate you could possibly need. That or Inquisition Hymn off said dark ritual. I find combo hate much less necessary in the board outside weird ones like MUD ramping or Show and Tell. Ensnaring Bridge shuts off most of my own win conditions save Cursed Scroll so I'd only use it if I'm losing the creature war or Show and Tell hits and I need to stop Emrakul or Wurm Coil Engine, etc.

Contamination play is really quite simple. Stall to top deck mode, cast it when your enemy has no threats and you have a single recurring threat, and then win the game. The only real downside is Surgical Extraction or other mana-less GY hate like a weird Leyline of the Void in a non-black deck. But if Ophiomancer works in further testing, even your GY hate can't stop me. People will have to board in weird artifacts like Ratchet Bomb to function at all during an all B-mana drought.

Be advised the sideboard is for my meta, which is more mid rangy and has a few combo. Lots of token rushes to the face as well.

[Aronesxd]

The mentioned Tom Ross list, which looks like legacy 8rack, is this the way to go now ? I'm new to the deck but i would like to build and play it more often. He showed that this deck can top8 in bigger tournaments

[Hardcore]

More likely he was over here looking for inspiration.

[Charon666]

Finally I could attend in a tournament again.
Went 3-3, 35th of 58.
After a little playtesting on Saturday, I made some last minute changes to my deck, bringing 8 instead of 6 win conditions.
I wanted to try a more 'pure' pox list again. No fancy cards, just disruption and win conditions (and SDT Grin )

This is the list I played:
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Innocent Blood
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Pox
3x Sinkhole
4x Smallpox
2x Thoughtseize

1x Bloodghast
1x Nether Spirit

1x Cabal Pit
4x Marsh Flats
4x Mishra's Factory
6x Swamp
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland

3x Liliana of the Veil

2x Crucible of Worlds
3x Sensei's Divining Top
2x The Rack

3x Ensnaring Bridge
4x Extirpate
3x Pithing Needle
3x Ratchet Bomb
2x Toxic Deluge



First of all: my impressions.
The deck worked. It did exactly what it was supposed to do. Disrupting early and heavy, softlocking with Liliana and/or Crucible Wastelock and eventually finding a win condition and ending the game.
Replacing a Liliana and a Sensei's Divining Top with two The Rack was a good decision.
What did I do wrong?
Bad sideboard. I constantly didn't know what to bring in, and what to replace. I should have brought Engineered Plagues and/or NoSB, and something against Burn like Spinning Darkness or Syphon Life.
Pithing Needle was great, Ratchet Bomb did some work, the rest either never came in, or performed underwhelming.

The matches:
Match 1, BUG-Delver, 0-2
Game 1:
He starts with a Bayou into Deathrite Shaman. I look at his hand with IoK seeing Liliana, Hymn to Tourach, Sylvan Library, Force of Will and USea. Here, on my first play I make my first mistake, leading to a loss.
I take his Liliana Frown I was afraid of her, because I know what she does when I play her. My brain didn't think this through.
Next turn he plays USea into Hymn, taking my Smallpox and a land. That Smallpox was crucial. I could not keep his creatures off the board after loosing that. Tarmogoyf, Gurmag Angler and another Deathrite Shaman beat me down.

Sideboarding: Well, I'm clueless after this loss. I think I bring in Toxic Deluge and Extirpate. I was pondering about Pithing Needle for Deathrite Shaman, but didn't know what to replace. Also, I should have enough removal to handle it without Needle. +2 Toxic Deluge, +4 Extirpate, -3 Sinkhole, -1 Hymn to Tourach, -2 Toughseize (I guess)
Game 2:
I start with IoK and see Deathrite Shaman, Goyf, Delver, Wasteland, Verdant catacombs and USea (I guess he mulliganed to 6). I take the Deathrite Shaman.
I handled his Delver with an Innocent Blood, and his Goyf with a Pox. After that, he still had gas, and I didn't. Took a beating again.

Match 2, BW-Tokens, 0-2
Meh. Tokens are no fun without Engineered Plague. I did manage to keep him mana screwed, but he eventually came back both games. But at least he was fun to play against Smile
I boarded in Rathed Bomb for Pox, be he broght a Needle for Lili, that also did well against my Bombs in play -.-

Match 3, Belcher, 2-0-1
He took a while for his decision to keep his hand. I hope he doesnt have the turn 1 kill, as he is on the play. He drops his hand, counts 7 mana, and points to his Charbelcher. Meh... I put my hand on my deck... and start counting... He has 6 mana Frown He offers a draw for that game, because he miscounted. I take it and start sideboarding (which he didn't think was appropriate)
+3 Ratched Bomb, +3 Pithing Needle, -3 Sinkhole, -3 X. Can't remember. I guess it was either Crucible and a Top or Innocent Blood.
Game 2 I start with Ratched Bomb and Pithing Needle. He drops 14 Goblins on turn 1. Turn 2 they beat me to 6 life, then I drop the bomb Grin I start killing him from there.
Game 3 He doesn't have a play turn 1. I IoK and take a Seething Song. Turn 3 I drop Liliana and follow with a Pox. He doen't recover.

Match 4, RW-Painter, 2-0
Game 1
I'm on the play, ans start with IoK. I see: Goblin Welder, Painter's Servant, Pyroblast, Red Elemental Blast, 2 Fetchlands and something I can'd decipher because my handwriting sucks. I take his Welder.
Over to course of the game, he tries to keep a Painter in play, but fails to do so. I find Crucible, and wasteland lock him. He then tells me, he made a misplay. He could have played a Bloodmoon earlier, but played Ensnaring Bridge instead. I can't remember if that misplay was a deciding one.

Sidboard: +3 Pithing Needle, -3 Dunno. I need to start keeping track of that.
Much like game 1, but I locked him with Pithing Needle for Grindstone. Pox, Smallpox and Sinkhole keep him of off mana.

Match 5, Mono R Burn 0-2
Nothing to say here. I lose to burn preboard, and I have nothing in the sideboard. Both games where somewhat close, him being at 7 life game 1 and 4 life game 2. Spinning Darkness or Syphon Life could have made the difference.

Match 6, Esper Stoneblade, 2-0
The match that showed me Pox loves me, and I love Pox.
Both games went similar and very much how a game with Pox should go. Liliana and Sensei's Divining Top did most of the work, carrying me through the late game, and ensuring removal for his threats.
My opponent never had access to more than 3 mana, and always had to play from the top, one threat at a time.


I guess I could have played 5-1 with a better sideboard.
Overall I'm confident with my current list.
I guess Pox is a flex slot that can be any strong 3 drop thats affecting the board.
And I guess The Rack can be Cursed Scroll. I wanted to try The Rack again, because it allows using STD and playing the top deck while still dealing damage on 3 mana. They both are viable.
Bloodghast never showed itself, so it could have been a Nether Spirit.
I'm happy with the core of the list. Most hands I drew where good. I took 3 mulligans and was happy with the next 6 cards.

Sideboard should be something like this. Maybe even 1 Syphon Life main. I'd love to keep Ratched Bomb, but I can't find the space. It's faster than Engineered Plague against Goblin Tokens.
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Leyline of the Void/Extirpate
3 Pithing Needle
3 Engineered Plague
2 Syphon Life

[Hardcore]

Thank you for the report!

Key to beating Burn is not life gain but to have a threat in play while playing lots of disruption.

[Chiptoon]

The mentioned Tom Ross list, which looks like legacy 8rack, is this the way to go now ? I'm new to the deck but i would like to build and play it more often. He showed that this deck can top8 in bigger tournaments

I have been testing 8-Rack in Modern and I think the deck is really strong there. My issue with it in Legacy is that counters and Abrupt Decay are much bigger threats in the format. I want to test his list or something close to it though because a change of pace is nice and who knows maybe it's better for the meta right now.

[OmniStrata]

Dealing with Burn is a focal point as it's a deck that simply top decks to kill. Deny him his mana. If you've got a Trinisphere or Sphere of Resistance, it's a bye. Another option is Sun Droplet, but I found it too narrow for a sideboard slot.

I may have missed the post, what's Tom Ross's 8 rack list?

[Hardcore]

CREATURES (1)
1 Nether Spirit
ENCHANTMENTS (2)
2 Shrieking Affliction
SORCERIES (20)
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Raven’s Crime
4 Smallpox
3 Thoughtseize
INSTANTS (3)
1 Contagion
2 Funeral Charm
PLANESWALKERS (4)
4 Liliana of the Veil
ARTIFACTS (5)
1 Cursed Scroll
4 The Rack
LANDS (25)
13 Swamp
4 Mishra’s Factory
3 Wasteland
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
SIDEBOARD (15)
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Shrieking Affliction
2 Contagion
3 Spinning Darkness
1 Night of Souls’ Betrayal
2 Duress
1 Raven’s Crime
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

[lilevo]

I played G/B Pox last night in the daily event I finished 3-1 (last opponent didn't show up)

http://www.twitch.tv/romariovidal/v/20442459

http://www.twitch.tv/romariovidal/v/20455031

I have been itching to play Pox on mtgo I played it a lot on paper but wasn't able to get my hands on Lilianas online until last week, I am probably going to be playing/streaming pox for the rest of the week, I am also going to try a few different things including going mono B.

[Amfibolos]

Hi lads,

unfortunately I need to part ways with my Pox therefore I have some canons ready to join other armies and here is the largest place filled with Pox fans who fancy those canons and can put them to good use.
Some of them are:
The Tabernacle At Pendrell Vale
Sinkhole
Nether Void
Chains of Mephistopheles


Although I didn't write much I enjoyed reading this thread.
Thanks a lot.
Cheers

[zenitramleirdag]

Thank you for the report!

Key to beating Burn is not life gain but to have a threat in play while playing lots of disruption.

that is one way to do it, i'm sure hardcore's more aggressive build can live up to this rule..i once ran a build where i had tombstalkers and desecration demons to kill my opponent quickly after disrupting them..no void or sphere effects since i had no plans of locking them out of the game ..just straight-up ""kick-the-legs-of-the-table-and-kill-them-while-they-are-still-off-balanced" strategy..i based that list off this:

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=5868&d=234074




however, not all pox builds have those kinds of big threats..many mono-black prison pox lists have just 6-8 wincons in the main in the form of factories, spirits and scrolls..


in a field where i'd be expecting a lot of burn, i like to use cards against them which are also useful in other matches..i feel syphon life and sun droplet are a little narrow since its not specially good against other matchups..the best cards for our sideboard against burn is spinning darkness and trinishpere; take note that they are also good in many other matchups, spinning d. is good against delver decks, maverick, DnT, etc and trinisphere is good against storm, burn and other combo decks..

[zenitramleirdag]

Hi lads,

unfortunately I need to part ways with my Pox therefore I have some canons ready to join other armies and here is the largest place filled with Pox fans who fancy those canons and can put them to good use.
Some of them are:
The Tabernacle At Pendrell Vale
Sinkhole
Nether Void
Chains of Mephistopheles


Although I didn't write much I enjoyed reading this thread.
Thanks a lot.
Cheers

wow! sweet cards..you got all the expensive pox components!
but why are you giving up on pox? what's the matter, you don't love us anymore??:cry:

[Amfibolos]

It's not the case ;]
It's actually the competitve power I am saying goodbye to. The story's roots are a little bit broader and notwithstanding my unwillingness towards this concept, it can't be helped.
That is why if anyone wishes to strenghten their Pox, feel free to contact me.

[Aronesxd]

A Starcitygames article just presented a B/U Pox list feat baby-jace as a brew from Michael Majors . I have to say i thought last week about something similar but less blue, because he's cheap and when he get to a walker he doesn't hurt smallpox and innocent blood. Jace's second ability as a walker gives us not only cardadvantage but also a way to not just topdeck every turn. what i would also like to say is that standstill would be an auto include for me . The Deck would loose some raw power but get's more consistent.
As I said a few post earlier I'm quite new to this deck so not all off my thought might be solid proofed :)
What are your thoughts about that ?

[jredelstein]

A Starcitygames article just presented a B/U Pox list feat baby-jace as a brew from Michael Majors . I have to say i thought last week about something similar but less blue, because he's cheap and when he get to a walker he doesn't hurt smallpox and innocent blood. Jace's second ability as a walker gives us not only cardadvantage but also a way to not just topdeck every turn. what i would also like to say is that standstill would be an auto include for me . The Deck would loose some raw power but get's more consistent.
As I said a few post earlier I'm quite new to this deck so not all off my thought might be solid proofed :)
What are your thoughts about that ?

The points of adding Jace are valid, I don't think Pox is the place for him though. As far as I am concerned Pox (GB Pox in my case) is one of the best decks at going long. Jace clogs up the early turns, you can't play jace on turn 2 when you want to be casting Smallpox or Hymn. I do think he has merits in the mid and late game but those are not an issue for Pox. I do think it would be sweet to flash back a Smallpox with him though.

As far as Standstill goes, I love the card but, we are a proactive control deck, we attack our opponents hands, mana, and creatures. We cannot afford to sit behind a Standstill and wait. I think a UB Standstill deck could work but I don't think smallpox has a place in it :(

[OmniStrata]

The points of adding Jace are valid, I don't think Pox is the place for him though. As far as I am concerned Pox (GB Pox in my case) is one of the best decks at going long. Jace clogs up the early turns, you can't play jace on turn 2 when you want to be casting Smallpox or Hymn. I do think he has merits in the mid and late game but those are not an issue for Pox. I do think it would be sweet to flash back a Smallpox with him though.

As far as Standstill goes, I love the card but, we are a proactive control deck, we attack our opponents hands, mana, and creatures. We cannot afford to sit behind a Standstill and wait. I think a UB Standstill deck could work but I don't think smallpox has a place in it :(

Yes, we are on the pounce so to speak. Standstill was made obsolete due to Counterbalance generating better card advantage. I will quit playing this deck if someone actually builds a competitive Counter-Balanced Pox deck so help me! :mad:

I think on top of being a proactive instead of defensive control deck, we are also the most difficult deck archetype to defend against. Everyone I've asked tells me that sideboarding vs. Pox is an absolute nightmare. You're either a Dredge deck who likes getting Poxed, or a deck that has nothing in the board to use save Pithing Needles... :laugh:

[lilevo]

It's not a new thing for writers to post deck lists to hype a card and therefor drive the price up, do you guys remember how good Tibalt was supposed to be?

I realy don't think Jace, Vryn's Prodigy has a place in Pox at least not in the current configurations of the deck.

[jredelstein]

if someone actually builds a competitive Counter-Balanced Pox deck so help me! :mad:


Challenge Accepted!

In a couple weeks I will either report back with a list or report back that I don't think it is good.

[OmniStrata]

Challenge Accepted!

In a couple weeks I will either report back with a list or report back that I don't think it is good.

OH KARP! :eek:

That 8 rack list, I only counted 6 rack effects... :confused:
Contagion? The black equivalent of Force of Will (for 2 weenies lolz) Nice to see old school cards showing up again. This got 1st in a tournament?

[Chiptoon]

Yes, we are on the pounce so to speak. Standstill was made obsolete due to Counterbalance generating better card advantage. I will quit playing this deck if someone actually builds a competitive Counter-Balanced Pox deck so help me! :mad:

I think on top of being a proactive instead of defensive control deck, we are also the most difficult deck archetype to defend against. Everyone I've asked tells me that sideboarding vs. Pox is an absolute nightmare. You're either a Dredge deck who likes getting Poxed, or a deck that has nothing in the board to use save Pithing Needles... :laugh:

I could actually see Counter-Top Pox being decent. Is that a good home for Temporal Mastery? It allows the Pox deck to get ahead on resources, tick up their Planeswalker''s loyalty counters faster, and some other shenanigans. I kind of like the idea actually too bad it requires such a heavy blue investment.

[zenitramleirdag]

while seeing jace ran alongside liliana is really thematically cool, i have to agree with jredelstein that it feels like it'll clog our early turns which in pox, usually has to be spent on disruption..in mono black, we often run 12 2-drops already(hymn to tourach, sinkhole, smallpox) so running young jace seems counter-intuitive..

i would love to see him in a u/g or a bug brew though, maybe with Gilder Bairn? i dunno?

on contagion, i've been testing it a lot lately as a 1 or 2-of, its not bad for mono black pox..but personally, i prefer darkblast if your purpose is to kill creatures with 1 toughness..i think darkblast is more versatile because you can also do some graveyard shenanigans with it with cards like nether spirit, bloodghast, raven's crime, filth, etc..darkblast is also reusable..


contagion can kill a 2-toughness creature if you distribute all its -2/-1 counters on a single creature..darkblast too, if you do its upkeep trick..

darkblast is also a better topdeck than contagion since you don't have to worry about discarding it to liliana since you can dredge it back anyway..

one thing that really shines on contagion is that it can be cast for free..use it if you want, it aint bad, you can even run it with darkblast if you wish.. :smile:

[zenitramleirdag]

It's not a new thing for writers to post deck lists to hype a card and therefor drive the price up..

that is an important thing to keep in mind when reading about player's articles on certain cards/decks..

[OmniStrata]

I think the only reason I don't run Contagion is the same reason why we completely devour Force of Will plays. The card disadvantage. If only it said "discard" instead of exile... :cry:

I already run Dark Ritual and Smallpox which destroys cards, but allows us GY tricks. If I need to kill 2 1-toughness creatures, I'll let Engineered Plague do it, but I'll admit, giving a single biggie -4/-2 sounds like a great idea to totally negate a creature's damage while you wait for your Ensnaring Bridge or top decked Innocent Bloods, or heck, kill it with your Nether Spirit during the damage dance. I just, don't have any more space in my 60!

I just have to remember, the idea isn't to fix my top decks. The nature of the deck is inconsistent, but it's the price I pay to ruin the enemy's top decks.

Ensnaring Bridge, Night of Souls' Betrayal, Engineered Plague ruin top decked creatures. Trinisphere and Nether Void ruin top decked spells. If only there was a way to ruin top decked lands outside Contamination, then we'd be practically perfect. :cool:

[Hardcore]

ankh of mishra

[OmniStrata]

ankh of mishra

But that only works if they're at 2 hp and don't want to die. I will admit, dealing 5 damage per fetch land forcing them to fetch only 3 times per game sounds good, but it's never actually locked out my enemy's mana as well as Contamination has. The principle is similar to Trinisphere in that they need 4 lands in play to cast anything. The demand for the card early means I need to stuff 3-4 of them into the deck which I don't have space for.

[Aronesxd]

for the nonbasic lands you could play one or two Extirpate in main deck to attack their manabase a lot more, you have enough lands to do it for as fetchlands or nonbasic from sinkhole, smallpox

[Mr. Safety]

There's a few cards on my mind lately. I want to get 3x engineered plague into my sideboard for sure, it seems better than golgari charm overall and has a faster impact than pernicious deed. Here are a few cards I'm curious if anyone has tried:

1) sickening dreams (mostly for loam pox, discard three lands and get 3 damage all around, for only two mana. In monoblack it can allow for dead cards in hand to convert into a wiper. Synergy with cursed scroll to get to one card in hand.)

2) death cloud (probably only as a singleton, but it seems like it could be good with loam and maybe veteran explorer. Some crossover potential from nic fit.)

3) sign in blood (sometimes you just need more cards.)

Thoughts?

[Hardcore]

sickening dreams have i played occasionally in mono b. Would be better in loam probably for obvious reasons. Main drawback is that one doesn't want it countered because of the cases card disadvantage. I have had more use for it as a finisher than creature kill.

[Mr. Safety]

I have found that smallpox is insane when allowed to be played in multiples. In a few games I've had double smallpox and enough lands/chaff to pull it off turns 2+3 and I end up so far ahead its almost impossible for opponents to muscle back into the game. If there's a loam involved to let me chain fetches I can get a similar effect with death cloud for 2-3. With loam/rotation/library I have a ton of live draws after developing a degenerate game state. Its just a thought, maybe a better option over the singleton pox most folks use (monoblack).

[Stroggi]

In preparation for Grand Prix Seattle/Tacoma, my store is running a legacy event this Sunday. I'm expecting around 10 people there. I've gotten a lot of good ideas and information from lurking on this primer for the past year, so I figure it's about time I actually contribute by writing a tournament report of the event and posting it here on Sunday evening or Monday. I'm planning on attending the event tomorrow, and the GP in November, with the following list. I've given up on B/R Pox for the time being...

Main Deck:
3x Cursed Scroll (http://magiccards.info/tp/en/271.html)
1x Ratchet Bomb (http://magiccards.info/m14/en/215.html)

1x Nether Spirit (http://magiccards.info/query?q=nether+spirit&v=card&s=cname)

2x Night of Souls' Betrayal (http://magiccards.info/query?q=night+of+souls%27+betrayal&v=card&s=cname)

4x Dark Ritual (http://magiccards.info/query?q=dark+ritual&v=card&s=cname)
2x Spinning Darkness (http://magiccards.info/query?q=spinning+darkness&v=card&s=cname)

4x Mishra's Factory (http://magiccards.info/query?q=mishra%27s+factory&v=card&s=cname)
12x Swamp (http://magiccards.info/on/en/341.html)
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth (http://magiccards.info/m15/en/248.html)
4x Wasteland (http://magiccards.info/tpr/en/249.html)

4x Liliana of the Veil (http://magiccards.info/isd/en/105.html)

4x Hymn to Tourach (http://magiccards.info/fe/en/12.html)
3x Innocent Blood (http://magiccards.info/od/en/145.html)
4x Inquisition of Kozilek (http://magiccards.info/query?q=inquisition+of+kozilek&v=card&s=cname)
4x Sinkhole (http://magiccards.info/un/en/38.html)
4x Smallpox (http://magiccards.info/query?q=smallpox&v=card&s=cname)

Sideboard:
2x Ensnaring Bridge (http://magiccards.info/query?q=ensnaring+bridge&v=card&s=cname)
3x Pithing Needle (http://magiccards.info/query?q=pithing+needle&v=card&s=cname)
1x Ratchet Bomb (http://magiccards.info/query?q=ratchet+bomb&v=card&s=cname)
1x Engineered Plague (http://magiccards.info/query?q=engineered+plague&v=card&s=cname)
4x Leyline of the Void (http://magiccards.info/query?q=leyline+of+the+void&v=card&s=cname)
2x Nether Void (http://magiccards.info/query?q=nether+void&v=card&s=cname)
2x Duress (http://magiccards.info/query?q=duress&v=card&s=cname)

The main deck is devoted to killing creature decks as consistently as it can, with the sideboard devoted to hate cards against combo and graveyard strategies. Any thoughts and opinions are greatly appreciated. I might have enough for one more big purchase, barring Tabernacle. Should I prioritize purchasing Chains of Mephistopheles or the Abyss? Any other improvements I could make to get ready for the grand prix meta?

Thanks!

[Hardcore]

Since Night of Souls' Betrayal is legendary it might be better to replace one of them with an engineered plague.

[Stroggi]

Since Night of Souls' Betrayal is legendary it might be better to replace one of them with an engineered plague.

The reason I'm playing two is in hopes of seeing it more often. The odds of me having to worry about the legendary rule are still not very high with two in the main deck. I have one E. Plague in the sideboard to compliment the NoSB if I need more of that effect post sideboard.

[Aronesxd]

I'm curious not sure if i shut play Dark Rituals or not ?
In my Opinion is this Card very good in this deck to lock people out as early as possible : T1- swamp Inquisition / T2 - Swamp , Dark Ritual -> Hymn , Sinkhole. Or even t1 Lillis ....
On the other hand, while we are topdecking is this a very very poor draw and you also doesnt want to have more then 1 ritual in your opener.
So the reason because I`m so curious is that I see two different Pox decklists. One with dark ritual for the nuts openers which shell give the deck a more powerful early game and the other is a more midrange oriented deck with maybe some fechtes / tops + bloodghast CA .
I have no Idea what's the way to go, Reid Duke played a lot of Rits in the past but he said the played them because he didnt want to fall behind on board ( Inquisition not printed / Thoughseize not played ) and no other T1 plays.

[Hardcore]

I read somewhere that one can consider dark ritual as equivalent of 0.5 land. Thus four rituals could replace two land, and the net loss to rituals would only be two slots.

[OmniStrata]

I read somewhere that one can consider dark ritual as equivalent of 0.5 land. Thus four rituals could replace two land, and the net loss to rituals would only be two slots.

Actually that applies more so to mana dorks. I don't treat rituals as land replacements but more like burst mana for when I'm on two land due to Poxing and if I need to do a big pump into my Cursed Scrolls or attack with multiple Mishra's Factories while keeping excess land open for other spells. 0.5 land is more for like say, Llanowar Elves, or Mox Diamonds (maybe not Diamonds since you're throwing land away). Charcoal Diamond? (laughs)

I've added more land killing to the deck and after analyzing my meta, I've removed Ensnaring Bridge from the sideboard as Omni-Show deck players aren't as happy losing Dig Through Time but the Sneak Show monsters are less affected I'm told. Ultimately, I have less trouble with combo decks and have devoted more SB slots (5) to my most hated matchup: Miracles/Counterbalance control. It also has the excellent side effect of alleviating Poxes biggest problem: Non-land Non-creature permanents.

I'll post more details on the deck development but my meta is less tribal/fast weenie aggro and more mid range than before. Night of Souls' Betrayal has been dropped and my Contamination testing has been stagnant since my hypocrisy of starting to use tutors and essentially making a 'combo-lock' has been met with inconsistency of which I should have expected *facepalm*.

Unofficially speaking, I've dubbed my deck False Quad-laser Pox. :cool:

Current sideboard:
1 Culling Scales
2 Powder Kegs
2 Ratchet bombs
2 Tombstalkers (I missed this boss :laugh:)
2 Extirpate
2 Leyline of the Void
4 Engineered Plague

[OmniStrata]

There's a few cards on my mind lately. I want to get 3x engineered plague into my sideboard for sure, it seems better than golgari charm overall and has a faster impact than pernicious deed. Here are a few cards I'm curious if anyone has tried:

1) sickening dreams (mostly for loam pox, discard three lands and get 3 damage all around, for only two mana. In monoblack it can allow for dead cards in hand to convert into a wiper. Synergy with cursed scroll to get to one card in hand.)

2) death cloud (probably only as a singleton, but it seems like it could be good with loam and maybe veteran explorer. Some crossover potential from nic fit.)

3) sign in blood (sometimes you just need more cards.)

Thoughts?

A) 3-4 Plague is fine.

1) I've found sickening dreams to be a terrible top deck (of which we're trying to avoid) and since we are already hitting ourselves with massive card disadvantage, making it worse isn't a good thing. Granted, Loam could pull through it if your meta is slow enough.

2) Death Cloud is inferior to Pox. Just run more Poxes :smile: HOWEVER, if 8 Pox effects still isn't enough, and you can feed it enough land (at least 6 mana is necessary for any real returns since Smallpox is DC=1 for 4 cmc, which is terrible) by all means DEATH CLOUD THEM... :mad:

3) Phyrexian Arena would be far better and your opponent will have a much tougher time dealing with that than a single Sorcery. It's also immune to your own Poxing and if you can keep your life total flowing, it works. I used to run the Arena but kept dying to it so I stopped. However, Sign in Blood has the most epic side effect of killing your opponent that the Arena doesn't. Personally, I'd rather hit them with a creature/Cursed Scroll but it's funny and it works.

[Hardcore]

"...has been met with inconsistency of which I should have expected *facepalm*."

I feel your pain.

[Mr. Safety]

A) 3-4 Plague is fine.

1) I've found sickening dreams to be a terrible top deck (of which we're trying to avoid) and since we are already hitting ourselves with massive card disadvantage, making it worse isn't a good thing. Granted, Loam could pull through it if your meta is slow enough.

2) Death Cloud is inferior to Pox. Just run more Poxes :smile: HOWEVER, if 8 Pox effects still isn't enough, and you can feed it enough land (at least 6 mana is necessary for any real returns since Smallpox is DC=1 for 4 cmc, which is terrible) by all means DEATH CLOUD THEM... :mad:

3) Phyrexian Arena would be far better and your opponent will have a much tougher time dealing with that than a single Sorcery. It's also immune to your own Poxing and if you can keep your life total flowing, it works. I used to run the Arena but kept dying to it so I stopped. However, Sign in Blood has the most epic side effect of killing your opponent that the Arena doesn't. Personally, I'd rather hit them with a creature/Cursed Scroll but it's funny and it works.

Thanks for the reply. I agree with all of your points, and I don't think any meta is slow enough for loam to compensate for dreams. I'll stick with 3 plague for now but I may play 4 if the meta shifts to more yp, lsouls, or esper mentor. I do see goblins and elves occasionally too.

Sign in blood I think has a better chance of resolving than arena imho. I like that it gives controlled lifeloss where arena can add up over several turns. I also already have library, which is superior to both options. I had an open slot and I felt it could be a draw option (3rd barren moor to make 27 lands, sign in blood.)

[OmniStrata]

If you have an open slot, and are in doubt, just throw Big Pox in there and call it a day. I've never seen it 'miss' before and if it does, that means they have no permanents in play or cards in hand, in which case, you just made your clock 33% faster.

[Hardcore]

After watching Tom Ross play a friendly Modern game http://www.starcitygames.com/article/31391_Todd-VS-The-Boss-DoranZur-VS-8-Rack.html I have been thinking of make that deck legacy legal.

Perhaps something like this

4 Liliana of the Veil

4 bloodghast

1 ankh of mishra

20 Swamp
1 Dakmor Salvage



4 The Rack
4 Shrieking Affliction
4 Dismember
2 Funeral Charm
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Raven's Crime
4 Smallpox
3 pox
4 hymn to tourach

[OmniStrata]

After watching Tom Ross play a friendly Modern game http://www.starcitygames.com/article/31391_Todd-VS-The-Boss-DoranZur-VS-8-Rack.html I have been thinking of make that deck legacy legal.

Perhaps something like this

4 Liliana of the Veil

4 bloodghast

1 ankh of mishra

20 Swamp
1 Dakmor Salvage



4 The Rack
4 Shrieking Affliction
4 Dismember
2 Funeral Charm
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Raven's Crime
4 Smallpox
3 pox
4 hymn to tourach

That Modern Smallpox deck looks amazing for fighting agro and the sideboard makes it even more so. Must have had a lot of creatures facebutting him. I'd most likely swap the Dismember for Smother and get 3 Funeral Charm, 1 Raven's Crime. Then swap the Bloodghasts for Ensnaring Bridges or some removal and let the 8-racks go to town.

If only my meta wouldn't have so much mid-range and had more agro gah! :frown:

[Hardcore]

I suppose more discard in the sideboard, like wrench mind, would be nice against mid range.

[OmniStrata]

I've found Liliana and Hymn plenty enough discard for mid-range decks. Thing is people tend to cast what they draw and drawing more land kill gives you a better chance at a target than top decking a discard spell. I'm running 4 Poxes now main deck but if I were to do some tweaking, I'm bouncing between 4 Pox, 8 threats, 24 land configuration or 2 Pox, 9 threats, 25 lands.

Anyone here running 25+ lands run into situations where you get mana flooded often? I find even with 24 lands + 4 Dark Rits I get mana screwed and sometimes wish I ran 32 lands... :eek: I've found that 9 threats allows me to kill a Jace more efficiently since he'll just Fateseal to live off of a single threat and we need 2+ threats to bury his ass efficiently.

[Toxboy]

Well this isn't exactly what is getting discussed right now, but I'm thinking alot over some card choices over this past weeks since dtt got banned and how much this affected my thinking and card choices.


These are mostly releveant for the B/G loam pox list but I would say it has similarities to list running crucible and trying to establish a lock.

General differences
Bad:
More JTMS, since you can't dig for them you can often find around 1 more in most stock list 75 cards(at my Meta) and often times 1 in certain deck sideboard.
More aggresive lines, this is not always bad but since people are worse at grinding against your deck they can go more all in and sometimes be paid of.
More shardless, seriosuly how do you win vs turn 1 drs, turn 2 shardless into ancestral.


Good
Can't dig themselves out of your lock,
more focus on threats (good if you pack more answers otherwise bad as I noticed)
Less focus in going wide with pyromancer and mentor. Also harder for these decks to find their pieces.
Omnitell is dead, it's old cousin sneak and show is not that scary compared to it.
Barren moor can now almost always replace the singleton bojuka bog in the main since it doesn't randomly kill dig in certain match-ups.


I wanted to write about this since I Oddly enough I felt weird (in a bad way) after the recent dtt ban, since I got so used to playing against it every match up felt wrong, my sideboarding felt of and I had to many dead cards really.

But I sat down today and looked through my list and potential cards, in the end I decided I wanted to try to play the 4th abrupt decay since people just pack more threats instead of digging for them now.

The general changes made were,

Mainboard
+1 vengeful pharao (was out during the last part of the dtt meta, but now that deck really can't recharge themselves you can really afford to draw i as well)
+1 abrupt decay (was a hymn to tourach)
- 1 hymn to tourach (combo is less of a threat
- 1 toxic deluge (no need to 2 for 1 any fair decks really)

sideboard
- 1 innocent blood (you are more scared of having your removal countered so the extra abrupt does the work here
+1 vraska, the unseen (my new pet kill target jace card), it worked beautifully today as I played it plus 1 (knew he had jace in hand), he played jace because the ulti would have been game


further changes I'm thinking about is
cutting
trinisphere for a sphere of resistance specifically for the food chain matchup that can be pretty rough.
getting a golgari charm in the sideboard
getting a chains of mephistopheles in the sideboard
getting a nether void into the sideboard

Potential cuts are
Null rod, duress, extirpate, trinisphere (trini only for another sphere effect)

current sideboard
Duress
Coffin Purge
Extirpate
Innocent blood
Hymn to Tourach
engineered plague
Massacre
Null rod
sphere of resistance
2 trinisphere
krosan grip
maelstrom pulse
vraska, the unseen
Barren moor


If anyone have suggestions feel free to say so, also if you want to know anything specific about loam pox I can give some insight in a couple of match-ups.

[Mr. Safety]

Planeswalkers and shardless agent are outclassed by Vampire Hexmage and a flying combo finish. I am completely convinced that stage/depths is the way to shore up bad matchups.

[Toxboy]

Planeswalkers and shardless agent are outclassed by Vampire Hexmage and a flying combo finish. I am completely convinced that stage/depths is the way to shore up bad matchups.

The problems I have with shardless is that they attack all angles of the deck, they provide a fast clock with goyf, a grinding engine with shardless agent, sylvan library and ancestral, force of will to stop an early combo (naturally drawn they will be hard pressed but I don't usually do that), graveyard hate with drs and can even go big enough with jace if need be. The greedy versions even play basics or wasteland so you can't punish a good draw from them whatsoever.
I play only 1 depths 2 thespian's stage, are you playing more of each?

I feel I can basically only win vs them with combo unless they have a bad start and I like having some outs when they usually can threaten to finish the game within 5 turns.

Vampire hexmage fixing the planeswalker problem is actually interesting and I know the interaction itself. But I have overlooked that they will actually solve the problem itself. Unfortunately I like my little nether spirit so much I'm against the idea of playing more creatures, but if my 2 sideboard slots aren't able to handle planeswalkers I guess I'll give in to changing my deck.

[jredelstein]

The problems I have with shardless is that they attack all angles of the deck, they provide a fast clock with goyf, a grinding engine with shardless agent, sylvan library and ancestral, force of will to stop an early combo (naturally drawn they will be hard pressed but I don't usually do that), graveyard hate with drs and can even go big enough with jace if need be. The greedy versions even play basics or wasteland so you can't punish a good draw from them whatsoever.
I play only 1 depths 2 thespian's stage, are you playing more of each?

I feel I can basically only win vs them with combo unless they have a bad start and I like having some outs when they usually can threaten to finish the game within 5 turns.

Vampire hexmage fixing the planeswalker problem is actually interesting and I know the interaction itself. But I have overlooked that they will actually solve the problem itself. Unfortunately I like my little nether spirit so much I'm against the idea of playing more creatures, but if my 2 sideboard slots aren't able to handle planeswalkers I guess I'll give in to changing my deck.

I actually tend to like this matchup. Attack their mana, Innocent Blood or Disfigure their Deathrite Shaman and get a wasteland lock going as fast as possible. Discard takes counter magic allowing you to resolve spells. I usually don't care if they resolve a Ancestral Visions if they don't have enough lands to play what they draw, Liliana, Raven's Crime, and Loam are better at going long than they are. Cabal Pit is also great in this matchup.

I also play 1 depths and 2 stage.

[Hardcore]

I agree. Shardless need its mana.
The cards in its hands are dead without that.

[Hardcore]

12 rack.

This is just an idea.

4 Liliana of the Veil

2 nether spirit

21 Swamp

4 wheel of torture
4 The Rack
4 Shrieking Affliction

3 Funeral Charm
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Raven's Crime
4 Smallpox
3 pox
4 hymn to tourach

[Toxboy]

Interesting, approach to it since I have had such a hard time vs shardless, I will try to focus more on this part, do you think it goes so far that you should mulliga into Wasteland or similar hate?

Also I think I asked this before but now that dig is bannad what is our bad match-ups?

In General I would say decks playing shardless Agent (food chain and shardless bug) and The really aggressive all in decks (though mostly a coinflip game there)
I will still take this stance since I haven't actually tried playing vs shardless with this "new" approach

Other then that I fel all match ups are pretty even or favored

[Mr. Safety]

If you curve out with enough lands you can screw just about any deck. T1 discard, t2 smallpox, t3 waste or loam. Shardless is trying to play the same grinding plan as us...but with more threats they are better at topdecking than us. We can't be focused on eeking out small advantage unless we curve out perfectly. Hard control is difficult against midrange decks. We gotta go combo on their ass (loam/crucible + waste or hexmage/stage + depths. A single topdecked shardless into Goyf/visions will be bad news.

Edit: the meta shifting is why I'm testing engineered plague over golgari charm. Charm had a small chance of killing omni if you can make them discard their counters (along with killing true name nemesis, young pyro tokens, and elves.) Bad matchups will still be burn and mid-range like shardless and jund, which is my opinion. We prey on the same decks as midrange but they are better against us.

[OmniStrata]

If you curve out with enough lands you can screw just about any deck. T1 discard, t2 smallpox, t3 waste or loam. Shardless is trying to play the same grinding plan as us...but with more threats they are better at topdecking than us. We can't be focused on eeking out small advantage unless we curve out perfectly. Hard control is difficult against midrange decks. We gotta go combo on their ass (loam/crucible + waste or hexmage/stage + depths. A single topdecked shardless into Goyf/visions will be bad news.

Edit: the meta shifting is why I'm testing engineered plague over golgari charm. Charm had a small chance of killing omni if you can make them discard their counters (along with killing true name nemesis, young pyro tokens, and elves.) Bad matchups will still be burn and mid-range like shardless and jund, which is my opinion. We prey on the same decks as midrange but they are better against us.

Plague should be a staple in Pox just because it can kill top decked creatures and Extirpate a race. Token rush gets hindered as long as they're not angels. But, I'm running da Bombs and Kegs for dem bitches on top of 4 Engineered Plagues. Swapped out my lone Culling Scales for Extirpate #3 as I found myself nuking my Cursed Scrolls (doh). I should consider Noetic Scales as a Bridge replacement since it allows my Factories to attack through them. But it would bounce my Spirit and Tombstalker. Ah decisions decisions.

[Mr. Safety]

In a DTT world I disagree. Golgari charm was superior as it could kill omniscience. The ban makes plague better. In loam pox it still fights for the 3 slot with deed and pulse, both of which have their pros and cons. I like deed only as a one-of in the main alongside a pulse, because as general cards they are good. However as dedicated swarm hate they are not anywhere near as good as plague.

Ratchet bomb is a consideration, but I feel in loam engineered explosives is superior and faster.

[OmniStrata]

In a DTT world I disagree. Golgari charm was superior as it could kill omniscience. The ban makes plague better. In loam pox it still fights for the 3 slot with deed and pulse, both of which have their pros and cons. I like deed only as a one-of in the main alongside a pulse, because as general cards they are good. However as dedicated swarm hate they are not anywhere near as good as plague.

Ratchet bomb is a consideration, but I feel in loam engineered explosives is superior and faster.

EE is faster, but I find that killing biggies like Jace and other 4 drops needs bombs. I'm running a 2/2 split of Powder Keg and Ratchet Bomb currently and in my latest test, it worked just fine. I think EE would work better in a 3 color deck since the meta I think is now more geared toward slower mid range and 1-3 drops are more common, at least from what I've seen. Normally for Show and Tell decks, I discard them too fast and hard if they don't go off turn 2. Though Golgari Charm won't 'stop the topdecks' the way a plague would, it is an answer that Mono-B doesn't have access to. What we can use, if we can just stall for 3 turns, is the Plague Boiler.

Perhaps even, Nevinyrral's Disk from the old times.

I'm officially packing in 3-4 Pox now instead of my singleton. Being able to slam 4+ lands on the enemy's board with it is now my new modus operandi. My Miracles rival also agrees that by running more copies of the big kahuna Pox, the loss in land drops becomes very significant. The games we run seem less lop sided now and with 4 Pox, I'm running 20 LD cards, assuming Liliana's ultimate can go off. That and fetchland shenanigans (also Crop Rotation). Having more Poxes makes me smirk when they try to trick me with that garbage. I distinctly remember at the SCG Chicago event were someone Crop Rotated to dodge my Wasteland. Damn that moment ticked me off. :mad:

I've accepted that swarm decks will most likely face stomp me game 1, but I'm seeing them less and less now, so going Quad Pox seems the right call.