[Primer/Deck] Stax

[ghostfire86]

Just ordered my cards so I'll be playing soon. After a few games I'll update

[caprino]

[QUOTE=Dice_Box;978592]For the record, my current list is as follows:

Creatures (4)
4x Metalworker

Spells (31)
1x Bottled Cloister
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Crucible Of Worlds
3x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Ghirapur Orrery
2x Grim Monolith
4x Mox Diamond
3x Smokestack
1x Staff Of Domination
4x Tangle Wire
4x Trinisphere

Lands (25)
4x Ancient Tomb
3x Buried Ruin
4x City of Traitors
3x Ghost Quarter
4x Wasteland
2x Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai
1x Mishra's Factory
4x Inventors' Fair

Sideboard
1x Bottled Cloister
1x Ensnaring Bridge
3x Ratchet Bomb
3x Defense Grid
3x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4x Phyrexian Revoker

I like adding Trading Post in somewhere. I will look to do that later[/QUOTE

nice list...help me side out and side in vs tiers deck ok?thanks

[Barachai]

I've been playing with the list for the past month or so. Mainboard is generally identical to Dicebox's list (one week I ran Trading Post instead of Orrery, was good, deserves another run). I've struggled most with the sideboard, currently testing this:

2 Ratchet Bomb
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Defense Grid
1 Tormod's Crypt - I find Ensnaring Bridge to be solid vs a lot of graveyard strategies, and I like being able to inventors' fair into a zero drop
2 Wurmcoil Engine - The best card I've been able to pull in vs midrange/dismantling strategies. Tempted to up this to 3. Can get stuck in hand though.
2 Welding Jar - because getting my things blown up is how I lose
1 - not sure. Has been an extra cloister, zuran orb, tabernacle.

I'm tempted to try Ugin, but 8 mana is a pretty tall order even with metalworkers in the deck. Even better than wurmcoil vs the fair decks though, and may even give the deck a fighting chance against nic fit (which showed up at last week's fnm).

Thoughts?

[Dice_Box]

Ugin as a sideboard card might not be too bad. The question I would ask is when do you want him? If you are bringing him in against decks that you also need to hide under a bridge, no, he is bad there. If you need him in more controlling matches I can see his use. But I would not look at running an 8 drop in my deck when I hope to hold back an army with a bridge. On the flip side, I really like the Wurmcoils. They can act like Bridges in the aggressive matches and they can be clocks in control matches. There is a lot of good in that card, I think they are a good addition.

Welding Jar... Thats fucking Genius. Decay is the biggest kick in the teeth. I really like that choice. I will try and find some space for it later.

Right now my 75 is such:
Creatures (4)
4x Metalworker

Spells (31)
1x Bottled Cloister
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Crucible Of Worlds
3x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Ghirapur Orrery
2x Grim Monolith
4x Mox Diamond
3x Smokestack
1x Staff Of Domination
4x Tangle Wire
4x Trinisphere

Lands (25)
4x Ancient Tomb
3x Buried Ruin
4x City of Traitors
3x Ghost Quarter
4x Wasteland
1x Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai
2x Mishra's Factory
4x Inventors' Fair

Sideboard
1x Bottled Cloister
1x Ensnaring Bridge
3x Ratchet Bomb
3x Defense Grid
3x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4x Phyrexian Revoker

[caprino]

Ugin as a sideboard card might not be too bad. The question I would ask is when do you want him? If you are bringing him in against decks that you also need to hide under a bridge, no, he is bad there. If you need him in more controlling matches I can see his use. But I would not look at running an 8 drop in my deck when I hope to hold back an army with a bridge. On the flip side, I really like the Wurmcoils. They can act like Bridges in the aggressive matches and they can be clocks in control matches. There is a lot of good in that card, I think they are a good addition.

Welding Jar... Thats fucking Genius. Decay is the biggest kick in the teeth. I really like that choice. I will try and find some space for it later.

Right now my 75 is such:
Creatures (4)
4x Metalworker

Spells (31)
1x Bottled Cloister
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Crucible Of Worlds
3x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Ghirapur Orrery
2x Grim Monolith
4x Mox Diamond
3x Smokestack
1x Staff Of Domination
4x Tangle Wire
4x Trinisphere

Lands (25)
4x Ancient Tomb
3x Buried Ruin
4x City of Traitors
3x Ghost Quarter
4x Wasteland
1x Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai
2x Mishra's Factory
4x Inventors' Fair

Sideboard
1x Bottled Cloister
1x Ensnaring Bridge
3x Ratchet Bomb
3x Defense Grid
3x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4x Phyrexian Revoker

Why 3 tabernacle in side?

[Dice_Box]

Redundancy. I want one down asap and it is something I got into the grove with when I was playing Vintage Terra Nova. (Thats the reason I have 3) Since we do not have a lot of card draw, you just do what most non Blue decks do and brute force your way into making something work. The games that Tabernacle is good in, its best you find it fast. In the games its bad it can stay where it is.

[caprino]

Redundancy. I want one down asap and it is something I got into the grove with when I was playing Vintage Terra Nova. (Thats the reason I have 3) Since we do not have a lot of card draw, you just do what most non Blue decks do and brute force your way into making something work. The games that Tabernacle is good in, its best you find it fast. In the games its bad it can stay where it is.

I test you list... Help me side guide (side out and side in) Vs tier deck(miracle, ant, eldrazi, grixis, bug delver, bug shardless, land, Sneak attack, show and tell, death and taxes, infect) thanks

[Dice_Box]

I test you list... Help me side guide (side out and side in) Vs tier deck(miracle, ant, eldrazi, grixis, bug delver, bug shardless, land, Sneak attack, show and tell, death and taxes, infect) thanks
Will do. If I do not get back to you by the 3rd, PM me and I will update. I was actually thinking about a MUD Stax Primer, but I am not anywhere near the level of writing that yet. I think it would be of benefit though as this thread is currently being used for both MUD and White stax.

Oh and the short one I know off hand, against Lands put a Chalice on 2 asap or lose. Cut the Orrery and all the Tangle Wire on the draw (They can flood the board faster than Wire can control them) and bring in Bomb, Bridge and Cloister. When you are on the play, bring in the Wires, cut the second Cloister and the Smokestax. The Bomb is the most useful card here, as dropping it and putting it on 1 can cut their Acceleration. The way you lose the game is if they can Waste AND drop another land a turn, eating away at your mana and slowly getting ahead. If they show Vortex or Seismic Assault you can think about bringing in Revoker but I personally would not. Punishing Fire makes that a tough card to stick and Chalice on 2 kills the fuel. Aim for that first and then Bomb away the card. Also Chalice on 2 kills Revoker.

Infect, Waste and Tabernacle wins games. If you can get them in a 1,2 punch your gold. Quarter is nearly a Strip mine here as they do not have more than a single basic. Try and hide that you have Quarter until after they fetch it trying to hold off the Wastelands.

[caprino]

Will do. If I do not get back to you by the 3rd, PM me and I will update. I was actually thinking about a MUD Stax Primer, but I am not anywhere near the level of writing that yet. I think it would be of benefit though as this thread is currently being used for both MUD and White stax.

Oh and the short one I know off hand, against Lands put a Chalice on 2 asap or lose. Cut the Orrery and all the Tangle Wire on the draw (They can flood the board faster than Wire can control them) and bring in Bomb, Bridge and Cloister. When you are on the play, bring in the Wires, cut the second Cloister and the Smokestax. The Bomb is the most useful card here, as dropping it and putting it on 1 can cut their Acceleration. The way you lose the game is if they can Waste AND drop another land a turn, eating away at your mana and slowly getting ahead. If they show Vortex or Seismic Assault you can think about bringing in Revoker but I personally would not. Punishing Fire makes that a tough card to stick and Chalice on 2 kills the fuel. Aim for that first and then Bomb away the card. Also Chalice on 2 kills Revoker.

Infect, Waste and Tabernacle wins games. If you can get them in a 1,2 punch your gold. Quarter is nearly a Strip mine here as they do not have more than a single basic. Try and hide that you have Quarter until after they fetch it trying to hold off the Wastelands. i no have 3 tabernacle...change 3 slot help me

[Dice_Box]

You could add what I cut then, Graveyard hate. Crypt, Cage or Relic. The other option is to look at cards like Cursed Totem, Welding Jar or Spellskite. If you do not need grave hate, I think I would go with 2 Welding Jar and another Bomb. Bomb makes it easier to beat the aggressive decks Tab is in there for because you can take out the early creatures before you find a Bridge.

[caprino]

You could add what I cut then, Graveyard hate. Crypt, Cage or Relic. The other option is to look at cards like Cursed Totem, Welding Jar or Spellskite. If you do not need grave hate, I think I would go with 2 Welding Jar and another Bomb. Bomb makes it easier to beat the aggressive decks Tab is in there for because you can take out the early creatures before you find a Bridge.

Vs miracle and bug shardless is hard matchup?

[Dice_Box]

BUG yes, anything with access to pinpoint removal, like Decay will cause you issues. The best plan there is to take out all the lands of one colour, but if they get a DRS down before you get a Chalice down you are in for a rough time. This is the kind of match that Jar would shine.

Miracles is good, its slow, and that works in our favour. Also most of our deck is 3 CMC and they have a limited amount of those for Counterbalance. The other advantage is that we have so many "Must answer" cards and they only normally have 5 counters in the main. After sideboarding they have Wear//Tear, more Council's Judgement and Engineered Explosives. It is likely they a Council's main and may also have EE main. But they need 3 colours to make EE work. I suggest going hard on Red game one. Often they have at most 3 red sources and you can afford to hammer their fetches each turn until they run out. If the player is smart they will keep a Volcanic in hand until they have an EE to cast, but then if you have them under a Trinisphere they might just not be able to keep a land in hand at all.

The worst part about Miracles though is they have Mentor now. And they can make an army of 1/1 Monks. If you draw a card you can not cast, they can suddenly kill you by attacking with 1/1s that they can buff. This is not a matchup for expensive spells.

[GoblinSettler]

Welding Jar... Thats fucking Genius. Decay is the biggest kick in the teeth. I really like that choice. I will try and find some space for it later.

Right now my 75 is such:
Creatures (4)
4x Metalworker

Spells (31)
1x Bottled Cloister
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Crucible Of Worlds
3x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Ghirapur Orrery
2x Grim Monolith
4x Mox Diamond
3x Smokestack
1x Staff Of Domination
4x Tangle Wire
4x Trinisphere

Lands (25)
4x Ancient Tomb
3x Buried Ruin
4x City of Traitors
3x Ghost Quarter
4x Wasteland
1x Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai
2x Mishra's Factory
4x Inventors' Fair

Sideboard
1x Bottled Cloister
1x Ensnaring Bridge
3x Ratchet Bomb
3x Defense Grid
3x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4x Phyrexian Revoker

In regards Welding Jar, what about Spellskite? Zero is much cheaper than two. But a Spellskite can pull double duty holding off some damage on the ground. I'm not sure that I'd run either. But I would look at Spellskite, too, before jamming the Jar. And then, a large part of me just wants to splash for Goblin Welder at that point.

I'm unsure of Grim Monolith. I've been toying with a Stax list with a small white splash and there I've noticed a decent correlation of Monolith with loose hands. I did not put in enough reps to thoroughly blame the card. And admittedly it is worse there, as sometimes I needed W. But it came up enough I began to see a pattern in test games. When I was playing a Metalworker Stax list closer to the one above, I moved to a split of Grim Monolith and Thran Dynamo. The repeating three colorless helped when keeping up with my own soot counters and facing down multiple Wasteland. I'm considering now to cut the Grim entirely. Mostly because I want to fit in more business at the expense of mana.

Looking ahead, I'm pretty excited for Walking Ballista somewhere. Undecided on how many to run. It functions as removal early, which I've wanted enough to run Aeolipile. Then, should your opponent choose not to scoop in the face of nigh infinite life, it provides a way to win that turn after going off with Metalworker.

[Dice_Box]

I like Jar because you can get it down on turn one and then protect your lock piece. Your not often going to get a lock piece and a Skite down as fast. But both are worth a test. I like the idea all the same, to protect everything else. Decay is my mortal weakness.

I know what you mean on Monolith. It feels like you should have either 4 or none. But I like it alongside Mox for that shot at turn one glory. After that, the card's value drops like a used car off the lot. I almost never untap it. It feels like a Lotus Petal I later sac to Stax. I still value the increase in turn one options but I agree it is a card that can be removed.

Walking Ballista? I would start with one. You can use it to kill with the combo active right then and there. As we see what it does we can move up or down from that. But right now, I am cutting a Factory to go back to four Ruins and adding one of these.

[GoblinSettler]

I like Jar because you can get it down on turn one and then protect your lock piece. Your not often going to get a lock piece and a Skite down as fast. But both are worth a test. I like the idea all the same, to protect everything else. Decay is my mortal weakness.

OK, I can see the value in that. Especially if the recent GP performance pushes folks to try out BUG lists again.

[Rome]

Whats about the idea of adding Daretti, Scrap Savant?

The Problem with the Goblin Welder is, that he is dead under the Chalice without Cavern of Souls.
And the loot of the Daretti is also okay.
Adding some Great Furance and it is castable.

Maybe he can bring back the essential pieces agains Decay Decks.

Also you can make action with two Tangle wires.

[Dice_Box]

The idea is sound, the issue I have with it is do you honestly gain enough from the splash. Right now, with BUG around, I think the answer is yes. If you have an idea for a starting list I am happy to work with you on it.

[Fred_Bear]

What problem would Daretti solve? Personally, I think he creates more than he solves, even with BUG decks about.

With True-Name Nemesis decks rising in popularity, Brown Stax should focus on a lock around Ensnaring Bridge (at least in my opinion). If you go the red-splash route, I would think Blood Moon would be the draw well before Daretti gets involved. Personally, I've kept my focus on white-splash for access to Armageddon, Council's Judgement, and Sanctum Prelate to combat Abrupt Decay, True-Name Nemesis, and Leovold, Emissary of Trest, all of which are troublesome.

[Barachai]

The main draw I see in Daretti is both his immunity to abrupt decay, and his capacity to recover other artifacts that have been decayed (in addition to his ability to dig). The mono-brown version simulates this by having many inventors' fairs and buried ruins, which is incredibly mana intensive.

As far as blood moon goes, I don't see it being maindeck worthy; we don't kill fast enough. Decent in the sideboard for greedy decks, but wastelocking is already effective vs them; I want something that stymies their interaction with my stuff more directly.

[Dice_Box]

The addition of Red for me is a response to the rise of BUG and Decay. I would seeks to add only a small splash, but it is a good way to recover from an early or mid game Decay. Also the addition of sweepers to the side would be useful for those without Tabernacle.

[Fred_Bear]

The main draw I see in Daretti is both his immunity to abrupt decay, and his capacity to recover other artifacts that have been decayed (in addition to his ability to dig). The mono-brown version simulates this by having many inventors' fairs and buried ruins, which is incredibly mana intensive.

As far as blood moon goes, I don't see it being maindeck worthy; we don't kill fast enough. Decent in the sideboard for greedy decks, but wastelocking is already effective vs them; I want something that stymies their interaction with my stuff more directly.

Isn't Abrupt Decay really just another counter, though? You play it and they blow it up for GB instead of countering it for a card and 1 life... I would think as long as your 'threat' density is high enough, a Decay or two shouldn't affect you too much. I think that was one of the things I didn't care for with some of the recent mono-Brown lists - the 'threats' are diluted with some softer locks or simple 'delays' like Tangle Wire (which I still hate in Legacy Stax). Again, I have much more experience with white lists and Karmic Justice has always been too reactive and never good enough. Why not build the deck with the plan of them never being able to play Abrupt Decay? Wasteland, Ghost Quarter, Trinisphere, etc. etc. etc. They all work to keep them off casting it. Throw in some spheres, a Golem, etc. and you may keep them from ever casting it meaningfully.

I don't mean to oversimplify, but Stax can't really afford to play cards that don't affect the board and their opponent. I feel like Daretti, while immune to Abrupt Decay, requires too many other cards to be useful. Yes, you can get something back - at the cost of another artifact. Yes, he has a built in looting effect, which is powerful in Stax, but is it powerful enough (don't get me wrong, there is something to be said for Bazaar in some Vintage Stax builds)? To me, it feels like win more. If you land Daretti and get a couple activations, I would think you were going to win anyways.

As far as Blood Moon goes, I would agree, it's a strong sideboard option for several match-ups. I could see maindecking it depending on a specific meta. If you face a lot of Leovold decks, it may be worth shutting off their deck Turn 1 or 2.


The addition of Red for me is a response to the rise of BUG and Decay. I would seeks to add only a small splash, but it is a good way to recover from an early or mid game Decay. Also the addition of sweepers to the side would be useful for those without Tabernacle.

I still prefer white. Taxes followed by an Armageddon still works. Council's Judgement provides answer to True-Name and Leovold. And Sanctum Prelate can neutralize Abrupt Decay (even when Chalice can't). Black might be another color to evaluate the splash. Chains of Mephistopheles can neutralize Leovold and there are several other splash options to consider (Nether Void, Engineered Plague, etc.).

[Rome]

I have no expirience with adding daretti, but maybe it works.
Another idea which I have with Daretti are Fleetwheel Cruiser.
Maybe it is possible to lock the Enemy fast with Chalice, Trinisphere and Tangle Wire and then you overrun him with Fleetwheel cruiser and with the Daretti you can loot into more Cruiser and you always have a 5/3 haste, trample. Maybe also Ovalchase Dragster is an option. But with it you have to find something to crew. It would be a deck with 4 Factories.

When we add Daretti, it could be also useful to include some Artifacts, which bring tokens, to have more material für Daretti and 4 Smokestacks are possible. Also from time to time with two counters.
Next week after my last tests at the univerity I have more time to work at this deck!

I think with that many decay decks around we should give daretti a chance!

[Fred_Bear]

I have no expirience with adding daretti, but maybe it works.
Another idea which I have with Daretti are Fleetwheel Cruiser.
Maybe it is possible to lock the Enemy fast with Chalice, Trinisphere and Tangle Wire and then you overrun him with Fleetwheel cruiser and with the Daretti you can loot into more Cruiser and you always have a 5/3 haste, trample. Maybe also Ovalchase Dragster is an option. But with it you have to find something to crew. It would be a deck with 4 Factories.

When we add Daretti, it could be also useful to include some Artifacts, which bring tokens, to have more material für Daretti and 4 Smokestacks are possible. Also from time to time with two counters.
Next week after my last tests at the univerity I have more time to work at this deck!

I think with that many decay decks around we should give daretti a chance!

So I guess I could see some of this, but I'm not sure if you're really looking at Stax as much as a Daretti Artifacts deck. Daretti plus a token generator will provide you an advantage to push. Having Servo or Thopter tokens (or other creatures) makes Vehicles worth evaluating. Can you fit all of that into a Stax shell? I'd love to see a test list. I would see it as more viable in Vintage where you have less lands and more room for creatures.

I'm not sure I see enough common board states where I think 'Man, Daretti would solve this'.

[GoblinSettler]

Looking ahead, I'm pretty excited for Walking Ballista somewhere. Undecided on how many to run. It functions as removal early, which I've wanted enough to run Aeolipile. Then, should your opponent choose not to scoop in the face of nigh infinite life, it provides a way to win that turn after going off with Metalworker.


Walking Ballista? I would start with one. You can use it to kill with the combo active right then and there. As we see what it does we can move up or down from that. But right now, I am cutting a Factory to go back to four Ruins and adding one of these.

First weekly with Walking Ballista legal. I went 2-2. Losing against burn which seems rough. And Miracles when my land base was two Ancient Tombs for most of the third game. Managed to do 14 to myself. Then lost to a couple V. Clique swings.

Ballista seems amazing here. I ran four and will continue to do so.

It comes down as removal early. Stays small to attack through a bridge. And gets pretty nutty with Metalworker. Even without the staff combo. Activate Metalworker for 4 or 8? Counters up.

[Dice_Box]

I found out this week I need direct damage in my store. Sat down across from someone who had just finished his first deck. Tezz. Dack fucking wrecked me and I wanted some way to answer him. My Ballista are still in the mail though.

[Barachai]

I found out this week I need direct damage in my store. Sat down across from someone who had just finished his first deck. Tezz. Dack fucking wrecked me and I wanted some way to answer him. My Ballista are still in the mail though.

Where were you planning on slotting them in? I'm between taking out tangle wires or hiding them in the sideboard.

[Barachai]

So this is where I am currently, taking some ideas from http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14688&d=288269&f=LE:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Inventors' Fair
3 Buried Ruin
1 Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
2 Ghost Quarter

4 Mox Diamond
4 Metalworker
2 Mind Stone
1 Staff of Domination

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Bottled Cloister
3 Stax
3 Crucible

2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Walking Ballista


Board:
4 Revoker
4 Lodestone
2 Wurmcoil
2 Welding Jar
3 Crypt


I've been looking at the sideboard, and what's been getting at me is what I drop from the 60 post board.
Currently, my plans look something like this, though I am highly skeptical of many of the following:

Delver (grixis):
-3 Stax
-1 Cloister
+4 Revoker

Miracles:
-4 Trinisphere
+4 Revoker

Bug (Delver, True-Name):
-4 Trinisphere
-2 Chalice
+2 Wurmcoil Engine
+4 Revoker

Bug (Shardless/Control):
-4 Trinisphere
-4 Chalice
-2 Ballista
+2 Wurmcoil
+4 Revoker
+4 Lodestone Golem

Sneak Show:
-2 Ratchet Bomb
-2 Ballista
-2 Bottled Cloister
-2 Mind Stone
+4 Lodestone Golem
+4 Revoker

Storm:
-2 Ratchet Bomb
-2 Ballista
-4 Bridge
-2 Cloister
-3 Stax
+4 Lodestone Golem
+4 Phyrexian Revoker
+2 Welding Jar
+3 Crypt

Aggro Loam/Jund:
-4 Chalice
-4 Trinisphere
+2 Welding Jar
+2 Wurmcoil Engine
+4 Revoker

Lands:
-3 Trinisphere
-2 Ballista
+2 Welding Jar
+3 Crypt

Elves:
-2 Cloister
-3 Smokestack
-3 Crucible
-2 Mind Stone
+4 Revoker
+4 Lodestone Golem
+2 Welding Jar

I am highly suspicious of my current board, and am further suspicious of my judgements of what to drop in post games. Does anyone more experienced have some advice/wisdom/enlightenment they could share?

[GoblinSettler]

Thanks for the update. I missed that Stax put up another result in the Legacy leagues.

Recent thoughts on the deck, I like having a Needle effect main to grab with Inventors’ Fair. As a reaction to Fatal Push I’ve moved to running a split between Pithing Needle and Revoker. On the other hand, it may be useful to provide additional targets to keep the heat off of Metalworker.

I am still very happy with 4 Walking Ballista.



2 Mind Stone


Please let us know how Mind Stone treats you. I have not been feeling 2x Grim Monolith and am currently on a split of 1 Grim Monolith and 1 Thran Dynamo.



I am highly suspicious of my current board, and am further suspicious of my judgements of what to drop in post games. Does anyone more experienced have some advice/wisdom/enlightenment they could share?

Bug (Delver, True-Name):
-4 Trinisphere
-2 Chalice
+2 Wurmcoil Engine
+4 Revoker

Bug (Shardless/Control):
-4 Trinisphere
-4 Chalice
-2 Ballista
+2 Wurmcoil
+4 Revoker
+4 Lodestone Golem

Aggro Loam/Jund:
-4 Chalice
-4 Trinisphere
+2 Welding Jar
+2 Wurmcoil Engine
+4 Revoker

In the BUG match ups, I waffle on removing Chalice or Trinisphere and usually end up keeping some of each. I have been keeping Ballista in, even against the more controlling lists. There are usually reasonable targets to pick off. Ballista provides another way to stop Liliana ticking up.

Chalice on 2 seems good in the Loam match. Punishing Fire and Loam are both worth shutting down. I keep Chalice in here.

There are some Chalice v Chalice matchups where the card clearly gets boarded out. But it can still play a role outside of the default Chalice on 1. If you have the play, dropping Chalice on 0 against decks that rely on Moxen or Petals for acceleration can be enough to stay ahead. Thinking of things like Lands and Dragon Stompy here. It also cuts off a free drop in the Smokestack race.

[Barachai]

Thanks for the update. I missed that Stax put up another result in the Legacy leagues.

Recent thoughts on the deck, I like having a Needle effect main to grab with Inventors’ Fair. As a reaction to Fatal Push I’ve moved to running a split between Pithing Needle and Revoker. On the other hand, it may be useful to provide additional targets to keep the heat off of Metalworker.

I am still very happy with 4 Walking Ballista.



Please let us know how Mind Stone treats you. I have not been feeling 2x Grim Monolith and am currently on a split of 1 Grim Monolith and 1 Thran Dynamo.



In the BUG match ups, I waffle on removing Chalice or Trinisphere and usually end up keeping some of each. I have been keeping Ballista in, even against the more controlling lists. There are usually reasonable targets to pick off. Ballista provides another way to stop Liliana ticking up.

Chalice on 2 seems good in the Loam match. Punishing Fire and Loam are both worth shutting down. I keep Chalice in here.

There are some Chalice v Chalice matchups where the card clearly gets boarded out. But it can still play a role outside of the default Chalice on 1. If you have the play, dropping Chalice on 0 against decks that rely on Moxen or Petals for acceleration can be enough to stay ahead. Thinking of things like Lands and Dragon Stompy here. It also cuts off a free drop in the Smokestack race.

I've had somewhat mixed feelings with ballista, thought maybe it's that I've simply not run into enough matchups where it is relevant. I did recently manage to go double metalworker->ballista to kill a griselbrand, that was funny (though I otherwise question it's usefulness in such a matchup).

Having played on both sides of the aggro loam vs stax matchup, I find chalice on 2 not to be strong enough to keep in. Against lands it's great, but for aggro loam you're mostly turning them off bob; loam isn't critical to their gameplan, and they're likely to board out some amount of pfire. They mostly win on the back of knight and abrupt decay, and postboard they lean on GSZ to find Rec Sage/friends. Mostly my experience against loam is that it is an awful matchup that I'd rather not face ^_^;;

As far as mind stone is concerned, I also look forward to seeing how it treats me, though I suspect I may drop them in favor of more ballista/ratchet bombs.

[Barachai]

Played the following for this friday night legacy:

4 Mox Diamond
4 Metalworker
2 Mind Stone

4 Walking Ballista
1 Staff of Domination

3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Smokestack

4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Bottled Cloister

1 Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai
3 Inventors' Fair
3 Buried Ruin
3 Ghost Quarter
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland

SB:
4 Revoker
4 Lodestone
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Welding Jar
2 Defense Grid
1 Tormod's Crypt

For Tl;dr: Ballista is awesome, mind stone was basically air and is being dropped in favor of (tentative) mainboard Bombs.

Round 1: BR reanimator (win)
Game 1 win die roll, t1 trinisphere is pretty strong.
-2 Stone -2 Cloister -1 Crucible +1 Crypt +4 Revoker
Game 2 Ensnaring bridge beats random fat creature.

Round 2: BUG Control (win)
Game 1 I believe involved a fast hopeless trinisphere/crucible/stax or something and opponent scoops.
-4 Trinisphere -3 Chalice -1 Gods' Eye +4 Revoker +2 Bomb +2 Jar
Game 2 was amazing, crucible fared poorly vs Shaman and Jace, but a 3/3 Ballista came down and his life became hard. He eventually lands a needle on ballista, metalworker and 1/1 ballista go to battle, eventually find inventors' fair -> Revoker and he dies to beats.

Round 3: Elves! (lose)
Game 1 played 2 ballista for 2, weren't enough, he GSZ for Revoker on my chalice and I die in a flurry of dorks
-3 Crucible -3 Smokestack -2 Mind Stone -2 Cloister +4 Revoker +2 Lodestone +2 Bomb +2 Jar
Game 2 kept a hand that played mox mox land, would have been a turn 2 golem but he thoughtseized. He then proceeded to draw an abrupt decay for every thing I played, and game wasn't particularly close.

Round 4: Infect (lose)
Game 1 I believe was a Bridge->Cloister affair, ballista shot a hierarch, he scoops.
Don't remember boarding
Game 2 Don't remember clearly, I believe a lot of power came my way turn 3 before anything was online
Game 3 Kept a dumb hand with double cloister, didn't get there.

There were 3(!) lands players there tonight, I unfortunately didn't get paired against any of them :(

Sat around with the infect player and modded the deck. Mind stone just felt dumb, dumped them for 2 ratchet bomb's main.
Ballista rocks, was a powerful card for multiple relevant matchups.

Not a fan of lodestone in the side.

Going to try the following board next week (dropping mind stones from main/adding bombs):

1 Powder Keg (in case of needle)
2 Pithing Needle (card is good)
2 Welding Jar
3 Defense Grid
3 Grafdigger's Cage (Elves is hard)
4 Revoker

[Dice_Box]

I haven't been on Stax for the last few weeks, but I am glad to see its still loved. Mindstone rubs me the wrong way. I dislike it. The advantage of Grim was that sometimes you got to 3 mana on turn one. That's really the whole point in running it. If I was looking to cut them (And I am) I would not seek a bad alternative, I would look at how I can adapt my new slots.

Personally, I like Walkers. I am looking at a Walker build right now, but I think that will end up closer to Affinity than Stax.

[Barachai]

Did some thinking, trying to write up a sideboard plan for my current stax build so that I can loan out the deck to people and give them some help. Was hoping to receive some harsh criticism.

Note that all of the below is a bit theory-crafty, and are more guidelines than rules.

General: abrupt decay and discard are good vs stax, ie you lose to jund and nic fit. In mulligans, you want a hand with action; slow hands are not good unless you know what you’re against. You will mulligan away a lot of hands that don’t have enough mana to get down to business.

Miracles:
-4 Trinisphere
-3 Walking Ballista
-1 Gods’ Eye
+2 Pithing Needle
+4 Revoker
+2 Defense Grid

(tricky) Chalice them, Hide behind a bridge, Revoke things, try to out-grind them
Want Metalworkers+Moxen in case of Back to basics/Ruination
Need Ballista in case of blood moon as win conditition + good against Jace
Be careful with Cloister, they often main a Wear//Tear, otherwise is good in the matchup

Delver (grixis):
-3 Smokestack
-2 Cloister
-1 Gods’ Eye
+3 Defense Grid
+1 Powder Keg
+2 Welding Jar

(medium) Win the die roll. Chalice and Trinisphere. Play around daze. Deathrite shaman and Percy get around bridge. They bring in ancient grudge. Ballista is decent.

Infect:
-3 Crucible
-3 Smokestack
+1 Powder Keg
+3 Defense Grid
+2 Pithing Needle (Inkmoth)

(swingy) mull aggressively to a hand with action. Lots of live cards, but they are slippery; need bridge down to 0 (cloister helps), they can kill turn 3 through a chalice, winning the die roll is huge. If you don’t have a chalice on 1 be aware of crop rotation in response to ballista or wasteland. Play around daze if able

True-Name BUG (the Reid Duke special):
-4 Trinisphere
-4 Chalice
+4 Phyrexian Revoker
+2 Pithing Needle
+2 Welding Jar

(Hard) Get ready to grind. Bridge is good. If they run out of abrupt decays, needle is on Jace/DRS and you have a bridge, you win.

Lands:
-4 Trinisphere
+2 Pithing Needle
+2 Welding Jar (depends)

(Easy) Game 1 they lose to bridge+chalice. Chalice on 1 can stop a lot of their good hands. Post board they usually have k-grip; note that you cannot weld in response to it. Consider keeping a 3ball or bringing in grids to stop their rotations during your turn.

Eldrazi:
-4 Chalice
-2 Trinisphere
+2 Welding Jar
+2 Pithing Needle
+2 Revoker

(easy) Resolve bridge. Needle on ratchet bomb post board. Their outs main are endbringer and sometimes ulamog; wasteland wrecks them.

Reanimator:
-3 Crucible of Worlds
-2 Bottled Cloister
-2 Ratchet Bomb
+3 Grafdigger’s Cage
+4 Phyrexian Revoker (griselbrand, petals/moxen if in play)
(+2 Jar if you see bayou/scrubland)

(weird/easy) Chalice, Trinisphere, Bridge can all stop them from playing magic. Matchup is a race to see who can cause the most non-magic. Smokestacks is good for killing fatties.

Sneak and Show:
-1 Crucible of Worlds
-2 Bottled Cloister
-2 Ratchet Bomb
-4 Ballista
+4 Phyrexian Revoker (Griselbrand, Sneak Attack, Jace, Petal)
+3 Defense Grid
+2 Needle

(weird/easy) Bridge is king in this matchup. Do not rely on chalice or trinisphere, but do keep them in. Be wary of moon, jace, and artifact destruction. Similar to reanimator matchup.
If they Show and Tell, what you put in is situational; it’s a unique puzzle every time. Be aware that Fair in response to Show can win the game. Also be aware that needle/revoker off of show can name what they play and they won't be able to respond.

Elves:
-3 Crucible
-3 Smokestack
-2 Cloister
-1 Gods’ Eye
-1 Trinisphere

+4 Revoker
+3 Grafdigger’s
+2 Jar
+1 Powder Keg

(very hard) Beware the rec sage. Especially beware the symbiote->rec sage loop. Games end up becoming quite grindy, until one player gets blown out.

Aggro Loam:
-4 Trinisphere
-4 Chalice of the Void
+2 Welding Jar
+2 Pithing Needle
+4 Phyrexian Revoker

(very hard)

[Avez]

Hey look we're famous: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/instant-deck-tech-stax-legacy :cool:

[beardstorm]

Did some thinking, trying to write up a sideboard plan for my current stax build so that I can loan out the deck to people and give them some help.

Seems that you've made changes compared to the list posted before. Out of interest, could you link the new 75?
I agree with most of the things you are stating. It seems that you like to take in the Phyrexian Revokers in a lot of matchups, have you considered playing them in the maindeck?

[ClimbGneiss]

Hello all:
Long time enthusiast for smokestack but I've never really sleeved up a committed smokestack deck. I've only ever "splashed" it in decks like lands or Mud circa 2015.

I was drawing up a list recently and was pleased to see that it was very similar to many lists on here :


4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
3 Smokestack
3 Ratchet Bomb
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Ghirapur Orrery
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Walking Ballistic
1 Trading Post
1 Staff of Domination
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Expedition Map
4 Mox Diamond

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
2 Ghost Quarter
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Sea Gate Wreckage
1 Inventor's Fair
3 Buried Ruin
1 Drownyard Temple
1 God's Eye, Gate of the Reikai
=25

4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Tormods Crypt or Surgical
4 Phyrexian Revoker
Welding jar
Defense grid
Warping Wail



Obviously I'm still working out the numbers. I'm also curious how much we need cards like Warping Wail or Dismember or if Ensnaring Bridge, ratchet bomb and smokestack do the job.


I think we should all strongly consider Ghirapur Orrery and insist on trying to break it because, even though it has some nonbo aspects, it really can be something we use to our advantage.

[beardstorm]

I was drawing up a list recently and was pleased to see that it was very similar to many lists on here:
Obviously I'm still working out the numbers. I'm also curious how much we need cards like Warping Wail or Dismember or if Ensnaring Bridge, ratchet bomb and smokestack do the job.
In general I feel like Smokestack and Ratchet Bomb does the job. If you're in a local field with a lot of Deathrite Shamans, perhaps playing more Warping Wails could be worth it, but I like playing cards like Phyrexian Revoker or even very specific sideboard cards like Cursed Totem instead. Most of what you care about to remove with Warping Wail you can lock down with these other options as well. The other modes of Warping Wail have not shined that much. Unless it's countering something like a Maelstrom Pulse or an Infernal Tutor, the card has not done much for me other than exiling Deathrite Shamans or Stoneforge Mystics.

I also have a question regarding your list. Why are you playing the Staff of Domination without the Metalworkers?

[Barachai]

Seems that you've made changes compared to the list posted before. Out of interest, could you link the new 75?
I agree with most of the things you are stating. It seems that you like to take in the Phyrexian Revokers in a lot of matchups, have you considered playing them in the maindeck?
List should be same with edits posted at the end of the post a weekish ago. This:

-25 Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Inventors Fair
3 Buried Ruin
3 Mishra’s Factory
1 Gods’ Eye, Gate to the Reikai
3 Ghost Quarter
4 Wasteland

-Mana
4 Mox Diamond
4 Metalworker

-Lock
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Ensnaring Bridge

-Grind
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Smokestack
2 Bottled Cloister
2 Ratchet Bomb

-Win
4 Walking Ballista
1 Staff of Domination

Side:
3 Grafdigger’s Cage
2 Pithing Needle
4 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Powder Keg
3 Defense Grid
2 Welding Jar


Played it friday night again, and I do agree with the observation that Revoker comes in a lot. Cards that I was less than impressed with were the keg, bomb, and to some degree the smokestacks... I may consider moving a bomb back to the side, dropping keg, and perhaps run a few revoker main. Some fiddling is in order.

In all honesty, ballista made me think of being more aggressive in general, though I might just play thalia stompy for a bit to satisfy that itch. Curious to see DiceBox's affinity-ish build he mentioned.

[beardstorm]

Cards that I was less than impressed with were the keg, bomb, and to some degree the smokestacks... I may consider moving a bomb back to the side, dropping keg, and perhaps run a few revoker main. Some fiddling is in order.

It seems to me that you have some matchups where you need to keep the Bombs, but you also need to take in permanents with converted mana cost 1 and 2 (Pithing Needle and Revokers, mainly), which works a little bit against you (say for example against DNT or Maverick).

In what matchups have you found that Smokestack is less impressive?

[ClimbGneiss]

In general I feel like Smokestack and Ratchet Bomb does the job. If you're in a local field with a lot of Deathrite Shamans, perhaps playing more Warping Wails could be worth it, but I like playing cards like Phyrexian Revoker or even very specific sideboard cards like Cursed Totem instead. Most of what you care about to remove with Warping Wail you can lock down with these other options as well. The other modes of Warping Wail have not shined that much. Unless it's countering something like a Maelstrom Pulse or an Infernal Tutor, the card has not done much for me other than exiling Deathrite Shamans or Stoneforge Mystics.

I also have a question regarding your list. Why are you playing the Staff of Domination without the Metalworkers?

Well, I'm definitely not a fan of metalworker in this deck. It's not mud and we aren't dropping any bombs to make it worth it. Staff of Domination is certainly less appealing but I do think that is still acts as a planeswalker and card advantage and a prison piece.

I like Orrery a lot. Seems like we will empty our hands easier than most.

[Barachai]

It seems to me that you have some matchups where you need to keep the Bombs, but you also need to take in permanents with converted mana cost 1 and 2 (Pithing Needle and Revokers, mainly), which works a little bit against you (say for example against DNT or Maverick).

In what matchups have you found that Smokestack is less impressive?

Stacks: basically any deck that doesn't run abrupt decay; in retrospect, I managed to dodge all the abrupt decay decks; decks without abrupt decay tend to just scoop to lock pieces, and it's a game to get those out, rather than grind them off of permanents.

I'll have to test bombs in/out of board, if I have time. The list overall feels pretty solid and consistent, needs some tuning.

Which reminds me, I also hit a bunch of matchups where ghost quarter was less than stellar; I'm not sure how much better other lands would be, should give it a run.

(with a foggy brain, barachai doth reply)

[beardstorm]

Stacks: basically any deck that doesn't run abrupt decay; in retrospect, I managed to dodge all the abrupt decay decks; decks without abrupt decay tend to just scoop to lock pieces, and it's a game to get those out, rather than grind them off of permanents.

Regarding Abrupt Decay, do you feel that Welding Jar does the job or is there just too much removal going around? Perhaps this certain event is not the best to draw conclusions from, but what's your thoughts about it in general? Also, have you tried playing with Spellskite?


Which reminds me, I also hit a bunch of matchups where ghost quarter was less than stellar; I'm not sure how much better other lands would be, should give it a run.

I have found that playing some fine one-ofs is usually fine. Cards like Karakas and Horizon Canopy does the trick, but you could also try out stuff like Drownyard Temple.

[Barachai]

Regarding Abrupt Decay, do you feel that Welding Jar does the job or is there just too much removal going around? Perhaps this certain event is not the best to draw conclusions from, but what's your thoughts about it in general? Also, have you tried playing with Spellskite?
The lifeloss of spellskite has always worried me off of running it; between ancient tomb and my opponent, it's not uncommon to stabilize at 1-3 life. This is aside from Welding Jar being phenomenal with Ensnaring Bridge with it's CMC-0 (As a cool observation, with 4 ballistae and 4 chalices, you can often dump hand with remarkable speed, faster than you're opponent might expect; this won me a game vs infect).

Upping the Buried Ruin count to 4 might be correct, now that I think about it. I still like Welding Jar, so long as we're colorless; the main problem is following up with something relevant, and not dying to the second abrupt decay or whatever. More buried ruin would probably help in that regard.

It would actually be hilarious to splash blue for Padeem, though that'd be a totally different deck methinks.

[beardstorm]

What I like about Spellskite is the double duty it carries against burn while also blocking the things that might slip under the Bridge. I don't run the bigger mana variants, or Bottled Cloister, so having the early blocker might help.

[Avez]

We are getting more coverage!!: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/much-abrew-legacy-stax

[Noctalor]

Got a top16 on a 100 players event and a top4 in a small 25 ppl event with my stax list

// 60 Maindeck
// 31 Artifact
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Smokestack
4 Mox Diamond
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Trinisphere
4 Ratchet Bomb
1 Ghirapur Orrery
3 Bottled Cloister
1 Trading Post

// 4 Creature
4 Metalworker

// 25 Land
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Buried Ruin
4 City of Traitors
3 Ghost Quarter
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai
1 Drownyard Temple
3 Inventors' Fair


// 15 Sideboard
// 11 Artifact
SB: 2 Uba Mask
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Caltrops
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Coercive Portal

// 4 Creature
SB: 4 Lodestone Golem


Is there a way to win a game against infect?

[Sloshthedark]

Got a top16 on a 100 players event and a top4 in a small 25 ppl event with my stax list


Is there a way to win a game against infect?

Maze of Ith?

[Noctalor]

Maze of Ith?

In order to be useful you have to play it as a 3/4 of in the md, and the card seems pretty useless in any other situation, or at least worse than any card I have in my MD :confused:

Still, I never tested it, is it useful?
What would you cut to make room for it?

[Barachai]

Is there a way to win a game against infect?

Aside from T1 Trinisphere, Bridge+Cloister is basically a lock, game 1 at least (I run two cloister partially to beat infect)

I also have been running 4 Walking Ballistae, and have not been disappointed by its capacity for death. Will note that I have one at least one game against infect by resolving a bridge, then dumping chalices and ballistae for x=0.

Note that Powder Keg is significantly better than Bomb in this one instance, and is one of several reasons I like to run a split.

Between Bridge+cloister, Bombs, Ballistae, and them not really liking chalice or trinisphere, I can't say I've had too much trouble with infect. They can sometimes slip under you of course, but that's a feature of infect generally.

I'll probably remember more stuff next time I run into the local infect guy.

[Noctalor]

Aside from T1 Trinisphere, Bridge+Cloister is basically a lock, game 1 at least (I run two cloister partially to beat infect)

I also have been running 4 Walking Ballistae, and have not been disappointed by its capacity for death. Will note that I have one at least one game against infect by resolving a bridge, then dumping chalices and ballistae for x=0.

Note that Powder Keg is significantly better than Bomb in this one instance, and is one of several reasons I like to run a split.

Between Bridge+cloister, Bombs, Ballistae, and them not really liking chalice or trinisphere, I can't say I've had too much trouble with infect. They can sometimes slip under you of course, but that's a feature of infect generally.

I'll probably remember more stuff next time I run into the local infect guy.

Often times, in spite of me locking their infect creatures, our clock is slow enought that they can just kill us with an OTK with a noble hierarch

[Barachai]

Often times, in spite of me locking their infect creatures, our clock is slow enought that they can just kill us with an OTK with a noble hierarch

Usually if i've had a bridge/cloister out, I've also resolved a trinisphere or chalice; retrospectively, one of those was usually involved in a victory along with the bridge lock.

Will reiterate that 4 walking ballistae has made the infect matchup much simpler. Kinda making me want to play stax now, will have to see if local infect guy is up for some matches.

For reference, this is the list I'm currently looking at:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Buried Ruin
4 Inventors' Fair
3 Mishra's Factory
1 God's Eye, Gate to the Reikai
1 Drownyard Temple

4 Mox Diamond
4 Metalworker
1 Staff of Domination

4 Walking Ballistae
2 Phyrexian Revoker

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Smokestack
2 Bottled Cloister

SB:
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Defense Grid
3 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Powder Keg

Couple things broadly I've wanted to try in the above list; first, split of revokers in the main, as it was noted that they come in a lot. Might go back to being bombs. Second, need Lodestone Golem for combo decks, as an outright clock is needed to end the game before they can break out of the lock. Grafdigger's Cage is a concession to Elves, which is still a shit matchup with ballista. Been especially wanting to test the elves matchup.

[Fred_Bear]

How relevant is the Metalworker combo in the current meta? Could those slots be re-dedicated to more lock? It always feels very fragile to me and 5 slots is quite a commitment for this deck.

[Barachai]

How relevant is the Metalworker combo in the current meta? Could those slots be re-dedicated to more lock? It always feels very fragile to me and 5 slots is quite a commitment for this deck.

This deck is very incredibly mana hungry, and metalworker fuels that hunger. This is especially true of any play involving Inventors' Fair or Buried Ruin, which is a large part of the incentive for playing a MUD variant in the first place. In theory you could replace them with Thran Dynamos or Mind Stones (?), but then you have no efficient way to close the game once a hard lock is established; being able to end the game in a timely fashion has been, to me, a pretty significant draw to the deck, as STAX generally struggles to do this.

Generally, I would also think that if you feel that part of the deck is vulnerable/fragile, then this may not be the right meta for STAX as a deck; midrange especially is hard on it.

[Noctalor]

How relevant is the Metalworker combo in the current meta? Could those slots be re-dedicated to more lock? It always feels very fragile to me and 5 slots is quite a commitment for this deck.

I don't play the staff, mainly because I find it pretty much useless unless we have a worker active, most of the effects are way too mana intensive.

Still, I think we have to play worker in the deck, a lot of times he survives the turn, and we win most of those games, if he gets killed by an abrupt decay we are fine aswell, and besides being extremely helpful in the early stages of the game the card is still very relevant in the mid and late game, giving us enought mana to empty our hands each turn, and to abuse inventors' fair which is probably our best card at the moment

[Fred_Bear]

This deck is very incredibly mana hungry, and metalworker fuels that hunger. This is especially true of any play involving Inventors' Fair or Buried Ruin, which is a large part of the incentive for playing a MUD variant in the first place. In theory you could replace them with Thran Dynamos or Mind Stones (?), but then you have no efficient way to close the game once a hard lock is established; being able to end the game in a timely fashion has been, to me, a pretty significant draw to the deck, as STAX generally struggles to do this.

Generally, I would also think that if you feel that part of the deck is vulnerable/fragile, then this may not be the right meta for STAX as a deck; midrange especially is hard on it.


I don't disagree that the deck is mana hungry. That was one of the first things I noticed playing it initially. Metalworker, in my experience on MTGO, isn't a reliable way to generate that mana, though, which is what led me to asking the question. Bolt, StP, and Fatal Push are all common enough that untapping with him is quite a luxury. I agree that midrange is tough on Stax, but I just wonder if we became more mana efficient, would it improve?




I don't play the staff, mainly because I find it pretty much useless unless we have a worker active, most of the effects are way too mana intensive.

Still, I think we have to play worker in the deck, a lot of times he survives the turn, and we win most of those games, if he gets killed by an abrupt decay we are fine aswell, and besides being extremely helpful in the early stages of the game the card is still very relevant in the mid and late game, giving us enought mana to empty our hands each turn, and to abuse inventors' fair which is probably our best card at the moment


I'm not sure I agree 100% with that. Untapping with him is often great, but it's hardly an auto-win in my experience. I definitely understand that he generates mana, but I've had ups and downs there (often in conjunction with mana flood) as well as times where he is in conflict with an Ensnaring Bridge. There are other times where he is 'working' and I get wiped by a Maelstrom Pulse... None are necessarily reasons to throw Metalworker away without discussion. I'm just not convinced right now that he's as good as he needs to be.

[Noctalor]

Well, I find easier to lose because we can't empty our hand in thime with a bridge in play than losing because we cannot attack with a metalworker.

And surely dumping our hand on the board is not an autowin, but if this deck could play its cards for free, even if we have to play them all at once, for sure we would like to do so, untapping with metalworker ensures at least to cast a 4 cost card freely, and in a lot of MU we really want to enstablish our lock as soon as possible.

It is also reasonable to cast it on turn one, and get to use it at least once, and the card is pretty decent even played after a lock that prevents remuvals.

For me the main reason to play it is that in a lot of games we either need to go hellbent quickly or we need to activate an Inventors' fair and cast what we get, and it is also true that running so few win condition as we do is not that bad to just have some additional win conditions in the deck, even haing 4 1/2s is decent enought because we dont really need much more to win, but relying only on a playset of mishra's could be dangerous in my opinion

[Fred_Bear]

Well, I find easier to lose because we can't empty our hand in thime with a bridge in play than losing because we cannot attack with a metalworker.

And surely dumping our hand on the board is not an autowin, but if this deck could play its cards for free, even if we have to play them all at once, for sure we would like to do so, untapping with metalworker ensures at least to cast a 4 cost card freely, and in a lot of MU we really want to enstablish our lock as soon as possible.

It is also reasonable to cast it on turn one, and get to use it at least once, and the card is pretty decent even played after a lock that prevents remuvals.

For me the main reason to play it is that in a lot of games we either need to go hellbent quickly or we need to activate an Inventors' fair and cast what we get, and it is also true that running so few win condition as we do is not that bad to just have some additional win conditions in the deck, even haing 4 1/2s is decent enought because we dont really need much more to win, but relying only on a playset of mishra's could be dangerous in my opinion

I'm not convinced...

Look at Metalworker as a turn 1 play.

Sol-Land, Mox Diamond (discard land), Metalworker - 3 cards in hand

Untap, 4 cards in hand

Odds say, 3 of the 4 cards are artifacts, most likely lock pieces. So, you can generate 10-11 mana which should allow you to play all or at least 2 of them. Now, with an empty hand and 4-5 mana available, Metalworker is a 1/2 artifact creature in this deck. Yes, you dumped your hand on turn 2, but that doesn't always win the game. On turn 1, I would much rather play Trinisphere, Chalice of the Void, or even a blind Ensnaring Bridge. I understand that you can come up with sets of artifacts which put you well ahead of your opponent, but I just don't feel like Metalworker enables the 'broken' starts in this deck the way it does/can in Mud decks and in those decks, the 1/2 'generic' artifact creature he eventually becomes a sacrifice for the Forgemaster.

In my mind, the ideal situation is really a board where you have Metalworker, Ensnaring Bridge, Bottled Cloister, and Staff of Domination so that you are ensured to keep getting cards to generate mana with Metalworker. The issue here, though, is that Ensnaring Bridge, Bottled Cloister, and land is enough of an engine to maintain a lock. This puts me back to my original question - Is Metalworker worth the slots for this deck? I haven't really played too much with a Brown Stax list without him, but in testing with Metalworker, it feels like he creates more variance than he eliminates.

[Barachai]

I'm not convinced...

Look at Metalworker as a turn 1 play.

Sol-Land, Mox Diamond (discard land), Metalworker - 3 cards in hand

Untap, 4 cards in hand

Odds say, 3 of the 4 cards are artifacts, most likely lock pieces. So, you can generate 10-11 mana which should allow you to play all or at least 2 of them. Now, with an empty hand and 4-5 mana available, Metalworker is a 1/2 artifact creature in this deck. Yes, you dumped your hand on turn 2, but that doesn't always win the game. On turn 1, I would much rather play Trinisphere, Chalice of the Void, or even a blind Ensnaring Bridge. I understand that you can come up with sets of artifacts which put you well ahead of your opponent, but I just don't feel like Metalworker enables the 'broken' starts in this deck the way it does/can in Mud decks and in those decks, the 1/2 'generic' artifact creature he eventually becomes a sacrifice for the Forgemaster.

In my mind, the ideal situation is really a board where you have Metalworker, Ensnaring Bridge, Bottled Cloister, and Staff of Domination so that you are ensured to keep getting cards to generate mana with Metalworker. The issue here, though, is that Ensnaring Bridge, Bottled Cloister, and land is enough of an engine to maintain a lock. This puts me back to my original question - Is Metalworker worth the slots for this deck? I haven't really played too much with a Brown Stax list without him, but in testing with Metalworker, it feels like he creates more variance than he eliminates.

Just played a few games with Stax vs Loam yesterday, and one thing sticks out: Metalworker must die. Between Inventors' fair and just being able to overwhelm the board, games where Metalworker lives feel amazing. That said, if there did exist a 3 mana thran dynamo, it would be very tempting to play; as it stands, thran dynamo itself seems rather clunky, Mind Stone is kinda dinky, Monolith is very high variance, and... I'm not entirely sure on worn powerstone. You have put into my mind the idea to try it out though, might try my list with -4 worker -1 staff, +2 revoker and +3 Dynamo.

One more thought: Metalworker makes for excellent Force/Decay bait, which can also win the game.

[Fred_Bear]

One more thought: Metalworker makes for excellent Force/Decay bait, which can also win the game.

This is what it ends up for me. I hold them and then cast Metalworker, Force it, cast Trinisphere or Chalice or Crucible... I agree, when it comes together with Metalworker, it's awesome - an easy win. It's just high variance and if you don't have the support cards, very underwhelming.

I want to try a mix of mana and 'finisher'

[sdematt]

Any thoughts on the new Gideon to stall even more?

-Matt

[Princessforfun]

I haven't been playing Legacy for more than a year, but I've been playing a mono red stax deck that I like so far, but I don't have a ton of reps with. It's a stompy hybrid really. It feels good against just about anything but burn. Does anyone else have any experience with mono red and smokestack? I can post a list if anyone cares to discuss it.

[Nocioni88]

Post!


Inviato dal mio iPhone utilizzando Tapatalk

[beardstorm]

You said a lot of words when all we demand is a list!

[Princessforfun]

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
9 Mountain
4 Wasteland

4 Blood Moon
3 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Chrome Mox
3 Crucible of the Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Smokestack
1 Fiery Confluence
1 Rolling Earthquake

4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Sin Prodder
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Pia and Kiran Nalaar

SB
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Fairy Macabre
2 Pyroblast
1 Fiery Confluence
2 Sudden Shock
3 Trinisphere

Sorry it took so long. Ive been busy AF at work.

[Dice_Box]

The thing I love about Red stompy builds these days, they all kill me with a Chandra that I can never remember all the abilities of. I think I will have to give this a go.

[Princessforfun]

Haha, she is quite good and can end the game pretty quickly. Sin Prodder I think is the one card that really pushed this forward. It seems inocuous, but people quickly realize that it can spell doom if it stays online for a few turns. The interactions with Pia and Kiran/ Rabblemaster and Smokestack are very good and you can turn it up to three pretty easily. I have like that it's low to the ground and sometimes a turn one Rabblemaster in games 2/3 is enough to just race with a hate card as backup. Postboard Rabblemaster, ensnaring bridge and smokestack is almost impossible to beat. Those Ratchet Bomb lines for the opponent become pretty miserable.

[Dice_Box]

How useful do you find Wasteland when running do many moons? I understand the strength of Crucible and Stax, but Wasteland seems like a odd choice for what your trying to achieve.

[Princessforfun]

Turn one Blood Moon is a popular choice to Force of Will surprisingly, lol. It seems like a nonbo, but it's a good back up play to a failed turn one moon or if you just play crucible and then like a rabblemaster next. Otherwise they are just mountains and if that's the case you are probably in good shape anyhow. I've also turned a stack up to three with two Blood moon in play and a crucible with two wasteland. I killed my moon in my next turn and a land. Then double wasteland. They lost their entire boardstate. This is an outlier case for sure, but there are some very real midgame interactions.

[Princessforfun]

Also, thanks Dice_Box for formatting that for me. I was on my mobile.

[Dice_Box]

Ok. I would add 2 or 3 fetches. This is going to be a corner case, but sometimes you will have Crucible on the table and you can grab a land every turn. The issue if you do this is you have to drop Rolling Earthquake. You just can't have Tomb, Quake and Fetches in your deck all at the same time.

[Princessforfun]

I agree, that is a pretty good situation to be in with crucible. I do stabilize a lot at 1-4 life and the deck already has problems with burn if the land a swiftspear or goblin guide. Any thoughts on improving that? The deck does pretty well with cycling for cards between Chandra and Sin Prodder.

[Dice_Box]

Red is not exactly known for its life gain, so you have to look elsewhere. Options like Trading Post, Sun Droplet and Bottle Gnomes exist, but none are a perfect answer.

Another answer is something like either Wurmcoil and Batterskull or Orbs of Warding and Witchbane Orb.

[beardstorm]

Trading Post is king with Ensnaring Bridge guys. I'm just saying.

[Princessforfun]

I might try Trading Post as a one of, but I think mulling aggressively to a Bridge or Chalice is the only answer. Searing Blood is always the big problem. I do get to board in quite a bit as all the Moons are dead cards or enable searing blood. It's just tough.

[P210]

I agree, that is a pretty good situation to be in with crucible. I do stabilize a lot at 1-4 life and the deck already has problems with burn if the land a swiftspear or goblin guide. Any thoughts on improving that? The deck does pretty well with cycling for cards between Chandra and Sin Prodder.

I have usually 2 Zuran Orbs in the sideboard when playing Stax or MUD shells with Crucible of Worlds. Turns City of Traitor trigger into life, can shut off Price of Progress etc...

[Princessforfun]

Thank you, I think I am going to put two Zuran Orb in the board. I had some epic games against my buddy on GW Enchantress the other day. I won most of them mulling to chalice and finding smokestack. I'm going to put in some work with my friend that plays D&T. It should be really tough so I'm excited to see how it plays out. Any thoughts on the Top ban for Stax decks?

[Dice_Box]

Any thoughts on the Top ban for Stax decks?
If BUG deminishes we will have a better field. Having to play Welding Jar out of the side to answer Decay is a pain. While Stax itself dodges Decay, Crucible and Bridge are so dam strong and I hate seeing them eat Decay.

[Runninonwater]

Hello!

Im a MUD player but i want to try stax.
I thought i'd switch and figured i'll buy the Diamond before an eventual pricespike .
This is the list i've made after i've looked through the forum for a moment and im gathering the key Pieces i don't own as a mud player.

4 metalworker
2 walking ballista

4 ensnaring bridge
2 bottled cloister
4 chalice of the void
4 trinisphere
3 smokestack
3 ratchet bomb
1 trading post
3 crucible of worlds
1 staff of domination
4 mox diamond


2 inventors' fair
1 sea gate wreckage
1 drownyard temple
1 Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai
3 buried ruin
3 mishra's factory
4 city of traitors
2 ghost quarter
4 wasteland
4 ancient tomb

No sideboard yet.

Please tell Me what you think :)

[Princessforfun]

Just about everyone in my area that was on Miracles has switched to BUG midrange. I changed my list recently and this is what I'm going to take to Legacy night on Thursday. So far in testing it has been very consistent and pushes really hard against Blue decks. Pia Nalaar has been really good.
Land:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
13 Mountain

Creatures:
3 Avaricious Dragon
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
3 Pia Nalaar
4 Sin Prodder
3 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide

Spells:
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Smokestack
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Chrome Mox

SB:
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Fiery Confluence
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Trinisphere

[Dice_Box]

Please tell Me what you think :)
My apologies, I missed this post. The list is very close to what I was thinking up running lately, but I would run a player of Fair and a playset of Crucible. Cut the Seagate and the Drownyard for the fairs, the Crucible I would not worry too much about if you don't have it. Let me know how it treats you.


Just about everyone in my area that was on Miracles has switched to BUG midrange. I changed my list recently and this is what I'm going to take to Legacy night on Thursday. So far in testing it has been very consistent and pushes really hard against Blue decks. Pia Nalaar has been really good.
Moon, acceleration and card draw? Count me in. The only thing I would say is, at this point I think you will get more help in the Dragon Stompy thread. Your far closer to that deck now then you are Stax. Not that I mind seeing it here. I love me some Moon. As long as it's not played against me...

[Princessforfun]

@ Dice_Box

I was actually thinking the same thing when I posted it. The goal all along has been to accumulate the cards for MUD stax. This was just one trip on the journey.

[Dice_Box]

@ Dice_Box

I was actually thinking the same thing when I posted it. The goal all along has been to accumulate the cards for MUD stax. This was just one trip on the journey.
In a meta full of BUG, what you have is a better idea. I would trade out the Stax for something like Ratchet Bomb or Jitte main, a way to sweep DRS. Decay hurts me when I play straight artifact builds and Moon helps sure that up. But at the point where your already running 8 moon and Chalice, I think Smokestack is secondary to 3ball or something like it.

[sdematt]

I was actually thinking about rebuilding GW Geddon Stax. In this meta, all the lovely Stax cards like Suppression Field, Ghostly Prison, and their ilk seem pretty good.

Something like...

24 Lands

3 Tireless Tracker
3 Knight of the Reliquary

3 Smokestack
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Ghostly Prison
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Trinisphere
3 Armageddon
3 Sylvan Library
3 Timely Reinforcements
4 Mox Diamond

37

3 Choke
2 Karmic Justice
4 Suppression Field
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Krosan Grip

[ZEROorDIE]

I was actually thinking about rebuilding GW Geddon Stax. In this meta, all the lovely Stax cards like Suppression Field, Ghostly Prison, and their ilk seem pretty good.

Something like...

24 Lands

3 Tireless Tracker
3 Knight of the Reliquary

3 Smokestack
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Ghostly Prison
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Trinisphere
3 Armageddon
3 Sylvan Library
3 Timely Reinforcements
4 Mox Diamond

37

3 Choke
2 Karmic Justice
4 Suppression Field
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Krosan Grip

I really like this idea. looks fun, may have to try it next week.

I think I would drop the timely reinforcements and 1 mox diamond for 3 o-ring and a 25th land. Definitely want to be hitting land drops with tracker and be able to recover after and Armageddon.

I'm thinking a mana base something like the following, let me know what you think.

4 Ancient tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Savanna
4 Horizon Canopy
3 wasteland
3 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Mishras Factory
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Karakas

I know it doesn't leave you a lot to pitch to knight, but I'm not sure the mana base can support basic and fetch lands, which we don't even want to be playing if we have suppression field.

also would probably change 1 choke and 2 karmic justice in the board to 2 Containment Priest and 1 Karakas. might even go 1/1 krosan grip and disenchant just because the mana supports white better and most of the decks where we need to remove and artifact don't have permission. (d&t, blade to a lesser degree- much permission will be used trying to prevent the lock pieces from coming down)

lastly, the last few times I played smokestack, it was always the weakest card in the deck, I would probably only include 2 at most, maybe only one. revoker is very powerful right now and I think warrants inclusion to stop runaway deathrite/jitte/planeswalker activations that are pretty popular right now.

as usual, I'm typing from my phone so please disregard any egregious spelling errors.

look forward to hearing any thoughts on this though, it's always a bit difficult to build a multicolor stax deck but I really like the card selection advantages this build might offer.

[sdematt]

Knight is going t o b e there to mainly fetch Wastelands, your Ghost Quarter, Tabernacle, Kor Haven/Maze of Ith, etc. Doesn't really need to grab much else.

Smokestack and Tracker, as well as Timely and Smokestack synergize very well. You're always goingt o be down life in this deck, and typically down creatures. Giving yourself chumpers for the few guys that get through Ghostly will be important in buying you time, as will 6 life.

4 Mox is pretty essential in not only colour fixing, but reliably turn 1'ing a real card like Chalice or Trinisphere. I played Geddon Stax and full Dutch Stax for years, so I'm not talking out of my ass or anything.

24 Lands looks a lot like:

4 Ancient tomb
2 City of Traitors
3 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
2 Plains
3 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Mishras Factory
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Maze of Ith

[chaosjace]

Just about everyone in my area that was on Miracles has switched to BUG midrange. I changed my list recently and this is what I'm going to take to Legacy night on Thursday. So far in testing it has been very consistent and pushes really hard against Blue decks. Pia Nalaar has been really good.
Land:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
13 Mountain

Creatures:
3 Avaricious Dragon
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
3 Pia Nalaar
4 Sin Prodder
3 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide

Spells:
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Smokestack
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Chrome Mox

SB:
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Fiery Confluence
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Trinisphere

This deck is also most of imperial painter. Makes me want to take the deck in a more Stax direction with top gone.

[Fred_Bear]

I was actually thinking about rebuilding GW Geddon Stax. In this meta, all the lovely Stax cards like Suppression Field, Ghostly Prison, and their ilk seem pretty good.

Something like...

24 Lands

3 Tireless Tracker
3 Knight of the Reliquary

3 Smokestack
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Ghostly Prison
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Trinisphere
3 Armageddon
3 Sylvan Library
3 Timely Reinforcements
4 Mox Diamond

37

3 Choke
2 Karmic Justice
4 Suppression Field
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Krosan Grip

Humility is much more powerful right now than trying to play with Tracker or Knight in this shell in my opinion. It nullifies a lot of unfair decks and still hits the fair ones using DRS, TNN, or Leovold. It also 'combos' very nicely with Elspeth. I'm not convinced that it's worth it to bend the mana base to accommodate Sylvan Library right now, either. It may take a little longer to win without search or manipulation, but inevitability is quite strong.

[snoop_x]

I've been grinding with a Geddon STAX list lately. Been enjoying it a lot more then mono-brown STAX. I'm doing this off they top of my head so I may be missing a card here or there or be off on the numbers.

Lands:
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tombs
7 Plains
4 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Tabernacle of the Pendrell Vale

Artifacts:
4 Mox Diamond
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
3 Batterskull
2 Smokestack

Planeswalker:
2 Gideon, AoZ
1 Elspeth, KE

Sorcery:
3 Armageddon

Enchantment:
3 Humility
2 O-Ring
4 Ghostly Prison

SB:

3 Uba Mask
3 Suppression Field
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Faerie Macabre
1 O-Ring
1 Winter Orb

[CheeseGnome]

Wow, this list looks awesome. Maybe I'll sleeve it u...


3 Tabernacle of the Pendrell Vale

nvm.

[Dr_D]

Here's the latest pile of garbage I've been testing on xmage. I want to play it at a paper event and farm judge calls.

Artifacts:
4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere

Lands:
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tombs
4 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Karakas
8 Plains

Sorcery:
4 Armageddon
1 Idyllic Tutor

Enchantment:
4 Humility
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Suppression Field
1 Karmic Justice
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Opalescence
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Banishing Light

SB:

2 Karmic Justice
3 Wrath of God
3 Timely Reinforcements
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Rest in Peace

Leyline of Sanctity should almost certainly be in the board, but I wanted to try it main for faster opalescence kills. Testing has been great on xmage, but the people that play on that program aren't very good. I'm gonna test against more knowledgeable players when I get a chance. I'd love some feedback.

[Fred_Bear]

Here's the latest pile of garbage I've been testing on xmage. I want to play it at a paper event and farm judge calls.

Artifacts:
4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere

Lands:
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tombs
4 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Karakas
8 Plains

Sorcery:
4 Armageddon
1 Idyllic Tutor

Enchantment:
4 Humility
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Suppression Field
1 Karmic Justice
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Opalescence
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Banishing Light

SB:

2 Karmic Justice
3 Wrath of God
3 Timely Reinforcements
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Rest in Peace

Leyline of Sanctity should almost certainly be in the board, but I wanted to try it main for faster opalescence kills. Testing has been great on xmage, but the people that play on that program aren't very good. I'm gonna test against more knowledgeable players when I get a chance. I'd love some feedback.

If you're not playing Chalice, Idyllic Tutor should almost certainly be Enlightened Tutor, and I'd up the count to give you a better curve. I might look at more of the Armageddon Stax shell, though, and, like you said, side the Leyline, add Trinisphere (and potentially Chalice).

Like you said, this is probably a rules nightmare, but as long as you are playing Humility first, most of the crying will be on the other side of the table!

[Dr_D]

If you're not playing Chalice, Idyllic Tutor should almost certainly be Enlightened Tutor, and I'd up the count to give you a better curve. I might look at more of the Armageddon Stax shell, though, and, like you said, side the Leyline, add Trinisphere (and potentially Chalice).

Like you said, this is probably a rules nightmare, but as long as you are playing Humility first, most of the crying will be on the other side of the table!

There's 4 chalice and 3 Trinisphere main.

What would you suggest main instead of Leyline? I have it there because it's nice against all the discard and a 4/4 when you opalescence so it had the potential for some explosive kills.

[Princessforfun]

I finally managed to get around to some testing with the Stompy Stax deck against D&T and BUG. 10-3 vs. D&T and 12-3 vs. BUG. It felt really good and the low curve definetly gave me some payoffs from Smokestack. The card really shines in ye deck the point when I dropped it my opponents just rolled their eyes. Especially in games 2/3 with a bridge out. Smokestack is usually plan B if I can't land some early bombs like rabblemaster. I'm going to test against Sneak and Show hopefully soon and I'll report back. I don't think it's a good match up and I may go back to some number of Pyroblast and Red Elemental Blast.

I think the only change I would make so far is to pull an Avaricious Dragon out of the main for one Fiery Confluence. Fiery Confluence against D&T is just a huge blow out. It's a really incredible card and can handle DRS as well. This was also my first time getting out a T2 Smokestack and it was sweeeeet.

[Fred_Bear]

There's 4 chalice and 3 Trinisphere main.

What would you suggest main instead of Leyline? I have it there because it's nice against all the discard and a 4/4 when you opalescence so it had the potential for some explosive kills.

Sorry, I somehow missed your artifacts in reading too quickly...

I'd change Chrome Mox to Mox Diamond and use the Leyline of Sanctity slots for a combination of lands (Armageddon plus 22 lands is tough numbers even with the Chrome Mox), Crucible, Smokestack, and/or Moat. Moat actually works very well to buy you time until you play Opalescence.

Chrome Mox is tough in Stax. You really want permanents in play and Chrome Mox makes you lose them to nothing. The list is very close to what I usually play. I may give this a try and swap my Elspeth for the Opalescence.

[Dice_Box]

So I um... fucked up in the most amusing way. I decided yesterday to play Stax in place of Lands, but didn't have it built. I finished work stupid o'clock in the morning, got home and put the deck together, then went to bed. Pulled it out for round one, shuffled up, play Hangarback Walker? I could swear I put Walking Ballista in the box... Opps.

Anyway, here is the list:
Creatures:
2 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
3 Walking Ballista

Artifacts:
2 Bottled Cloister
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Mox Diamond
3 Smokestack
1 Staff of Domination
4 Trinisphere

Lands:
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Buried Ruin
4 City of Traitors
3 Ghost Quarter
1 Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai
4 Inventors' Fair
2 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Lodestone Golem
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Walking Ballista
2 Welding Jar

Changes from my old list.
Cut:
4 Tangle wire
1 Ghirapur Orrery
2 Grim Monolith

Add:
1 Bottled Cloister
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Walking Ballista
2 Lodestone Golem

What I didn't miss was the Monolith. I feel like it was often just a card that let you sometimes get 3ball online turn one. I really don't value it much more than that. I was thinking about adding in more mana, but in cutting Tangle Wire I feel like I don't need it as much. I am not trying to get extra mana on the table quickly so that I can have the advantage when the Wire drops.

What I did miss was Wire itself. The card is really strong at pushing to the mid game, but it's dead later on. In the end it likely has to go, but that doesn't mean I have to be happy about it.

Lodestone main was a failed experiment. I found that without Monolith, by the time he lands my opponent was already established. I feel like the extra Ballista and a Tabernacle main would likely be more useful. This is compounded when you look at the amount of decks running both Bolt and Young Pryo.

I think I will be switching Cage for more Crypt. I have Tabernacle to deal with creature decks like Elves, I need something that can wipe the graveyard. Twice I had an Angler cast off a single land under 3ball. I didn't lose either game but it was an eye opener.

Also, just as the extra smile. Game two was against Infect and I went turn one Hangarback... Dam that felt both amusing and dumb at the same time. Don't built your decks at the last minute folks.

[8bit9mm]

So, after some coaxing from Mr. Dice_Box, I've come to visit from Reddit.

Here is the list I've been piddling around with in paper recently.
The sideboard doesn't feel quite right, but I am enjoying the more traditional MUD STAX maindeck.

Artifact (30)
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Crucible of Worlds
3x Ensnaring Bridge
3x Mox Diamond
1x Powder Keg
3x Ratchet Bomb
4x Smokestack
4x Sphere of Resistance
4x Tangle Wire

Land (26)
4x Ancient Tomb
1x Buried Ruin
4x City of Traitors
3x Ghost Quarter
2x Inventors' Fair
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Mutavault
4x Wasteland

Creature (4)
4x Lodestone Golem

Sideboard
2x Bottled Cloister
1x Ensnaring Bridge
3x Metalworker
3x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Thorn of Amethyst
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Walking Ballista

I've got 3-Balls, but whenever I run them I feel like I'd rather just have Sphere of Resistances.
I haven't been messing with the deck very long, but I don't seem to have terrible difficulty with most matchups. Maybe I'm missing something that a more experienced pilot might be able to see.

[Fred_Bear]

So, after some coaxing from Mr. Dice_Box, I've come to visit from Reddit.

Here is the list I've been piddling around with in paper recently.
The sideboard doesn't feel quite right, but I am enjoying the more traditional MUD STAX maindeck.

Artifact (30)
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Crucible of Worlds
3x Ensnaring Bridge
3x Mox Diamond
1x Powder Keg
3x Ratchet Bomb
4x Smokestack
4x Sphere of Resistance
4x Tangle Wire

Land (26)
4x Ancient Tomb
1x Buried Ruin
4x City of Traitors
3x Ghost Quarter
2x Inventors' Fair
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Mutavault
4x Wasteland

Creature (4)
4x Lodestone Golem

Sideboard
2x Bottled Cloister
1x Ensnaring Bridge
3x Metalworker
3x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Thorn of Amethyst
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Walking Ballista

I've got 3-Balls, but whenever I run them I feel like I'd rather just have Sphere of Resistances.
I haven't been messing with the deck very long, but I don't seem to have terrible difficulty with most matchups. Maybe I'm missing something that a more experienced pilot might be able to see.

I've got a couple of questions...

#1) How do you do on time? I like a list without Metalworker main, but with Ensnaring Bridge and a 5 power creature, it seems like you might need the perfect storm in place before you get in a hit or 4.

#2) What match-up(s) do you find Tangle Wire helpful? I've played white stax for years (tinkering with brown on and off) and don't really care for it in Legacy. I always feel like it slows me down as much as (if not more than) my opponent.

I've long been a fan of Sphere of Resistance as well. After tinkering for a while, I just feel like it and Tangle Wire play much nicer with Workshop than they do Tomb/CoT. Always interested to hear how they work for others, though.

[8bit9mm]

I've got a couple of questions...

#1) How do you do on time? I like a list without Metalworker main, but with Ensnaring Bridge and a 5 power creature, it seems like you might need the perfect storm in place before you get in a hit or 4.

#2) What match-up(s) do you find Tangle Wire helpful? I've played white stax for years (tinkering with brown on and off) and don't really care for it in Legacy. I always feel like it slows me down as much as (if not more than) my opponent.

I've long been a fan of Sphere of Resistance as well. After tinkering for a while, I just feel like it and Tangle Wire play much nicer with Workshop than they do Tomb/CoT. Always interested to hear how they work for others, though.

Thanks for the reply!

1) Time sometimes can be an issue, but I lot of times the Lodestone just hangs back as another taxing effect while I bash in with Factories and Mutavaults. I also sometimes just wait until it is safe to sac Bridge to Smokestack or blow it up with Ratchet Bomb.

2) Tangle Wire is a huge help against Delver or any other low-to-the-ground decks, especially on the draw. I feel like a lot of the time, it gives me just enough time to drop something more meaningful on the board. It's a mid-game card for sure, but I feel like it's needed because that is the only spot where I feel the deck is obviously lacking. Mid-game seems to be where people have the best chance to slip out of our locks.

[Fred_Bear]

Thanks for the reply!

1) Time sometimes can be an issue, but I lot of times the Lodestone just hangs back as another taxing effect while I bash in with Factories and Mutavaults. I also sometimes just wait until it is safe to sac Bridge to Smokestack or blow it up with Ratchet Bomb.

2) Tangle Wire is a huge help against Delver or any other low-to-the-ground decks, especially on the draw. I feel like a lot of the time, it gives me just enough time to drop something more meaningful on the board. It's a mid-game card for sure, but I feel like it's needed because that is the only spot where I feel the deck is obviously lacking. Mid-game seems to be where people have the best chance to slip out of our locks.

1) That would be my fear as well. Having to wait until the 'perfect storm' of cards is assembled could really delay things (I play exclusively on MTGO). Have you tried something like Walking Ballista (even as a 1- or 2-of) in the maindeck?

2) That's an interesting way to use Wire. I think in White Stax, the benefit in the mid game is having multiple taxing effects (or a tax plus Armageddon) to slow the opponent's development or attack. Have you tried anything more 'permanent', maybe Winter Orb, to slow them?

3) Another question would be why Cloister in the side? I've always found that to be an outstanding maindeck card, but I side it out almost automatically against everything (maindeck artifact hate is rare, but everyone plays something in the side). Who do you side it in against?

Overall, I like the approach and hope to test it soon on MTGO.

[Steveman]

I'm back from the dead. I used to play Geddon / Dutch Stax extensively online on Magic-League via MWS and had some success with it there. Been playing the deck for about 9 years on and off, decided to come out of hiding after Top got banned.

Here's the list I've been running for the past couple years (really had no reason to change it)

25 LAND
6 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
3 City of Traitors
3 Mishra’s Factory
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas

35 SPELLS
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
4 Crucible of World
4 Banishing Light
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Trinisphere
3 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Oblivion Ring

SIDEBOARD
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Humility
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Null Rod

It's a traditional Geddon(less) Stax build that ditches the namesake Armageddon since I always felt it was a win-more card.

My philosophy on Stax always has been a card must be one of three things in order to make the cut:

- mana source
- lock piece / removal spell
- win condition

I've been running the gauntlet on XMage and my initial findings are this (still needs more testing)

POSITIVE MATCHUPS
- Non-DRS Delver
- Sneak and Show
- Storm Combo
- Reanimator
- Painter

BAD MATCHUPS
- DRS Decks
- Jace decks

NEEDS MORE DATA
- Dragon Stompy (used to be a very positive matchup, but new Chandra and Fiery Confluence changes things)
- Eldrazi
- MUD
- Death and Taxes
- Elves

AMA about the deck / card choices. Would write more but it's already past midnight : /

[Fred_Bear]

I'm back from the dead. I used to play Geddon / Dutch Stax extensively online on Magic-League via MWS and had some success with it there. Been playing the deck for about 9 years on and off, decided to come out of hiding after Top got banned.

Here's the list I've been running for the past couple years (really had no reason to change it)

25 LAND
6 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
3 City of Traitors
3 Mishra’s Factory
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas

35 SPELLS
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
4 Crucible of World
4 Banishing Light
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Trinisphere
3 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Oblivion Ring

SIDEBOARD
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Humility
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Null Rod

It's a traditional Geddon(less) Stax build that ditches the namesake Armageddon since I always felt it was a win-more card.

My philosophy on Stax always has been a card must be one of three things in order to make the cut:

- mana source
- lock piece / removal spell
- win condition

I've been running the gauntlet on XMage and my initial findings are this (still needs more testing)

POSITIVE MATCHUPS
- Non-DRS Delver
- Sneak and Show
- Storm Combo
- Reanimator
- Painter

BAD MATCHUPS
- DRS Decks
- Jace decks

NEEDS MORE DATA
- Dragon Stompy (used to be a very positive matchup, but new Chandra and Fiery Confluence changes things)
- Eldrazi
- MUD
- Death and Taxes
- Elves

AMA about the deck / card choices. Would write more but it's already past midnight : /

Welcome Back and thanks for posting!

I've found that possibly the strongest card that White Stax has access to in the current meta is maindeck Humility. It neuters reanimator, sneak and show, and eldrazi. Playing on MTGO, it's an auto-scoop against a lot of decks. Adding in cards like Suppression Field and Armageddon turn up the heat even further against several others.

Suppression Field goes a long way to the helping against DRS and Jace. DRS can still generate a mana, but costing 2 to activate a fetch cuts way down on what he's got to use. Jace is tough too, but charging 2 for any activation is usually overwhelming when combined with other taxes. Those decks are just not set up to handle it.

Do you feel like Tangle Wire or Ensnaring Bridge are mandatory?

[ZEROorDIE]

why play Flagstones when you have no Armageddon? those could just as easily be plains or more Factory/mutavault. I like the concept here, but it seems excruciatingly difficult to finish three rounds in 50 minutes with a build like this.

[Steveman]

Welcome Back and thanks for posting!

I've found that possibly the strongest card that White Stax has access to in the current meta is maindeck Humility. It neuters reanimator, sneak and show, and eldrazi. Playing on MTGO, it's an auto-scoop against a lot of decks. Adding in cards like Suppression Field and Armageddon turn up the heat even further against several others.

Suppression Field goes a long way to the helping against DRS and Jace. DRS can still generate a mana, but costing 2 to activate a fetch cuts way down on what he's got to use. Jace is tough too, but charging 2 for any activation is usually overwhelming when combined with other taxes. Those decks are just not set up to handle it.

Do you feel like Tangle Wire or Ensnaring Bridge are mandatory?

- I agree that Humility is one of the stronger cards, but the decks that are hit hardest by it are generally more positive matchups. Ensnaring Bridge is more useful maindeck, IMO, since it's cheaper and makes better Tangle Wire / Smokestack fodder. I want my deck to be as lean as possible, the 3 vs 4 mana is a huge deal.

- I've been asking myself the same question if Ensnaring Bridge / Tangle Wire is essential. I think Tangle Wire is mandatory since it works so well with the rest of the deck. It's essentially a more versatile Armageddon. I don't think Ensnaring Bridge is essential but it's one of the more versatile cards you can maindeck. I can always run more Oblivion Rings, haha. I've actually been thinking about testing Bomb / Keg since it seems more appealing with the SOI rules changes.

- I don't think Suppression Field does enough. It's a bit too narrow for my liking and doesn't do enough for my bad matchups. Also, there's splash damage to my Wastelands / Factories which is definitely noticeable. Honestly I'd rather play more O-Rings.

[Steveman]

why play Flagstones when you have no Armageddon? those could just as easily be plains or more Factory/mutavault. I like the concept here, but it seems excruciatingly difficult to finish three rounds in 50 minutes with a build like this.

Smokestack. Time isn't an issue most of the time since the deck rarely shuffles. Your turns go pretty fast.

[Fred_Bear]

- I agree that Humility is one of the stronger cards, but the decks that are hit hardest by it are generally more positive matchups. Ensnaring Bridge is more useful maindeck, IMO, since it's cheaper and makes better Tangle Wire / Smokestack fodder. I want my deck to be as lean as possible, the 3 vs 4 mana is a huge deal.

- I've been asking myself the same question if Ensnaring Bridge / Tangle Wire is essential. I think Tangle Wire is mandatory since it works so well with the rest of the deck. It's essentially a more versatile Armageddon. I don't think Ensnaring Bridge is essential but it's one of the more versatile cards you can maindeck. I can always run more Oblivion Rings, haha. I've actually been thinking about testing Bomb / Keg since it seems more appealing with the SOI rules changes.

- I don't think Suppression Field does enough. It's a bit too narrow for my liking and doesn't do enough for my bad matchups. Also, there's splash damage to my Wastelands / Factories which is definitely noticeable. Honestly I'd rather play more O-Rings.

I think a lot of your premise depends on how favorable you are willing to say a favorable match is. In my experience, none of the favorable match-ups are in the 60-65% range and all of them depend heavily on the draw you get. I've had great hands against aggro, except my opponent is combo... That's one of the reasons why I prefer to 'go wide' on 'threats' and instead of Ghostly Prison plus Ensnaring Bridge, it's really one or the other plus something that attacks/taxes from a different angle.

Suppression Field does something against every deck which is, I think, it's greatest strength. It meets with a lot of FoWs when I play online because it hinders all decks worse than it does us. I understand the non-bo with Wasteland and Factory, but, honestly, by the time you are activating Factory - it doesn't matter - and the ability to Waste a Fetchland is always special...

Just some thoughts for test and discussion.

[Steveman]

I think a lot of your premise depends on how favorable you are willing to say a favorable match is. In my experience, none of the favorable match-ups are in the 60-65% range and all of them depend heavily on the draw you get. I've had great hands against aggro, except my opponent is combo... That's one of the reasons why I prefer to 'go wide' on 'threats' and instead of Ghostly Prison plus Ensnaring Bridge, it's really one or the other plus something that attacks/taxes from a different angle.

Suppression Field does something against every deck which is, I think, it's greatest strength. It meets with a lot of FoWs when I play online because it hinders all decks worse than it does us. I understand the non-bo with Wasteland and Factory, but, honestly, by the time you are activating Factory - it doesn't matter - and the ability to Waste a Fetchland is always special...

Just some thoughts for test and discussion.

Agreed that favorable matchups are in the range you stated, for game 1 at least.

Suppression Field does a lot of things, but it also makes for an awful topdeck, something Stax is already really awful at. Chalice / Trinisphere / Crucible are great, but they're a pain to topdeck when you already have what you need on the battlefield. Suppression Field further adds to that without being as essential as those other cards. The maindeck has a nice balance of anti-spells and anti-creatures, and the sideboard lets me go all in on whatever silver bullets that I need. Suppression Field has a ton of merits but the deck as a whole already does what it is trying to achieve, and it's really hard to justify it over other lock pieces.

I'd rather hedge my bets to increase my even / (slightly) favorable matchups than try to answer the bad Jace matchups. This is because there is no true silver bullet vs Jace decks because they attack from multiple angles: on the ground with creatures / Batterskull, the air with Clique, and directly with Jace. Essentially, you need a combination of Moat / Humility (or just Ensnaring Bridge) with Leyline of Sanctity to block their paths to victory. Finding / resolving all 3 was near-impossible when I used to play Dutch Stax.

The one card I really want to test is Inventor's Fair in Horizon Canopy's slot. The lifegain would be nice and being able to tutor for Crucible / Smokestack / Ensnaring Bridge during a boardstall is very appealing. Ratchet Bomb / Powder Keg also look promising with the SOI DFC rules changes. I always considered it back when Delver was dominant, but being 0 cmc when transformed made Bomb / Keg a dealbreaker.

[Fred_Bear]

Agreed that favorable matchups are in the range you stated, for game 1 at least.

Suppression Field does a lot of things, but it also makes for an awful topdeck, something Stax is already really awful at. Chalice / Trinisphere / Crucible are great, but they're a pain to topdeck when you already have what you need on the battlefield. Suppression Field further adds to that without being as essential as those other cards. The maindeck has a nice balance of anti-spells and anti-creatures, and the sideboard lets me go all in on whatever silver bullets that I need. Suppression Field has a ton of merits but the deck as a whole already does what it is trying to achieve, and it's really hard to justify it over other lock pieces.

I'd rather hedge my bets to increase my even / (slightly) favorable matchups than try to answer the bad Jace matchups. This is because there is no true silver bullet vs Jace decks because they attack from multiple angles: on the ground with creatures / Batterskull, the air with Clique, and directly with Jace. Essentially, you need a combination of Moat / Humility (or just Ensnaring Bridge) with Leyline of Sanctity to block their paths to victory. Finding / resolving all 3 was near-impossible when I used to play Dutch Stax.

The one card I really want to test is Inventor's Fair in Horizon Canopy's slot. The lifegain would be nice and being able to tutor for Crucible / Smokestack / Ensnaring Bridge during a boardstall is very appealing. Ratchet Bomb / Powder Keg also look promising with the SOI DFC rules changes. I always considered it back when Delver was dominant, but being 0 cmc when transformed made Bomb / Keg a dealbreaker.

I agree with you. I probably wouldn't be as high on Suppression Field in a build without Armageddon. With Armageddon, it's not as bad a top-deck, because it can essentially give you multiple Time Walks vs a lot of decks (looking at the ones playing 8-11 Fetches). It also turns Armageddon into a Jace fix. A favorite play is to Armageddon replay a land from a Crucible and then land Suppression Field.

I tend to agree, the deck really hinges on getting 2-3 lock pieces out in order to take control of the game. I don't like to punt those games, but I'm just obstinate...

I've not been happy with Inventor's Fair. It's too slow and mana intensive for me. I also don't really care for Bomb/Keg in the main. I really only like them against quick tokens, so I can see sideboard, but I really don't think you get much more value out of them than O-Ring or Banishing Light.

[Ellomdian]

I think a lot of your premise depends on how favorable you are willing to say a favorable match is. In my experience, none of the favorable match-ups are in the 60-65% range and all of them depend heavily on the draw you get. I've had great hands against aggro, except my opponent is combo... That's one of the reasons why I prefer to 'go wide' on 'threats' and instead of Ghostly Prison plus Ensnaring Bridge, it's really one or the other plus something that attacks/taxes from a different angle.

I mean, this is the reason I stopped trying to force old-school prison Stax - the diversity of the format coupled with the speed means that if you don't have the right proactive answers before the threats hit, you are a huge underdog. If everyone around you is playing 4-color-midrange-garbage, Stax is fun. If the room is *actually* UR Tempo and ANT, hope that you have multiple lock pieces and they don't have force.

[paradaxarada]

Land (27)

4x Ancient Tomb
4x Buried Ruin
4x City of Traitors
1x Drownyard Temple
3x Ghost Quarter
1x Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai
4x Inventors' Fair
1x Karakas
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4x Wasteland

Artifact (31)

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Crucible of Worlds
3x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Ghirapur Orrery
4x Grim Monolith
4x Mox Diamond
3x Smokestack
4x Tangle Wire
4x Trinisphere

Creature (2)

1x Hangarback Walker
1x Walking Ballista

Sideboard (15)

1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Helm of Obedience
4x Leyline of the Void
4x Mindbreak Trap
3x Walking Ballista
2x Warping Wail

Enjoy yourself, you're welcome (:

[TLK]

So this crazy black Stax list just posted a 5-0:

4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Nether Spirit
1 Beseech the Queen
2 Chainer’s Edict
4 Smallpox
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Chrome Mox
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
2 Smokestack
4 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 The Abyss
2 Ancient Tomb
2 Geier Reach Sanitarium
4 Mishra’s Factory
8 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland

2 Collective Brutality
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Engineered Plague
3 Hypnotic Specter


4 Chains. 3 Abyss. Hippie in the board. SIGN. ME. UP.

[JackaBo]

So this crazy black Stax list just posted a 5-0:

4 Chains. 3 Abyss. Hippie in the board. SIGN. ME. UP.

So awesome!

[Princessforfun]

After tweaking for a couple moths this is what I have been running and it has been very good since I made the final changes. It's definetly a Stax deck and not a Stompy deck at its core.



LANDS:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
13 Mountains

CREATURES:

4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Avaricious Dragon
3 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide

OTHER SPELLS:

4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Chrome Mox
4 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Mox Diamond
4 Smokestack

SIDEBOARD:

2 Fiery Confluence
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Pithing Needle
2 Sun Droplet
4 Trinisphere
1 Umezawa's Jitte

I hope someone here will pick it up and play it so I can get some more feedback.

[non-inflammable]

I hope someone here will pick it up and play it so I can get some more feedback.

i like it enough to make the list and run it at legacy FNM but is there a better token (rabblemaster) or permanent generator for the 4 smokestacks?

[Princessforfun]

i like it enough to make the list and run it at legacy FNM but is there a better token (rabblemaster) or permanent generator for the 4 smokestacks?

I haven't found one. The Dragon, Bridge, Rabblemaster super team is pretty dumb until you find the Smokestack or you just Empty the Warrens in 15 turns. It also just oops I win if you can get it T1 against a pretty wide variety of decks. I really like Rabblemaster and God forbid you get two of them behind a bridge.

[whienot]

Hangarback Walker is great with Smokestack, but then you run into the issue of not having enough red cards for Chrome Mox.

[Princessforfun]

Hangarback Walker is great with Smokestack, but then you run into the issue of not having enough red cards for Chrome Mox.

I tested Hangarback Walker for a little while and it just never really curved corectly in this build and it was really awkward early on with a chalice at one and Chrome Mox. I could see it being disgusting with Metalworker though.

I haven't seen much discussion about Sun Droplet. That card is extremely versatile and is really good against burn. It can also gets your life back from Ancient Tomb making some of the openers less risky.

[Kanti]

After tweaking for a couple moths this is what I have been running and it has been very good since I made the final changes. It's definetly a Stax deck and not a Stompy deck at its core.



LANDS:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
13 Mountains

CREATURES:

4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Avaricious Dragon
3 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide

OTHER SPELLS:

4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Chrome Mox
4 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Mox Diamond
4 Smokestack

SIDEBOARD:

2 Fiery Confluence
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Pithing Needle
2 Sun Droplet
4 Trinisphere
1 Umezawa's Jitte

I hope someone here will pick it up and play it so I can get some more feedback.

Why no 8-Moon for maximum consistency? 7 is a nice number, but Moon is soooo well positions in this greedy, greedy meta I want to cut something for the 8th Moon. What would you suggest cutting?

Siege Gang seems good as well. Very nice finisher on it's own, turns on all those Goblins, and let's you go under your own Bridge.

[Princessforfun]

Why no 8-Moon for maximum consistency? 7 is a nice number, but Moon is soooo well positions in this greedy, greedy meta I want to cut something for the 8th Moon. What would you suggest cutting?

Siege Gang seems good as well. Very nice finisher on it's own, turns on all those Goblins, and let's you go under your own Bridge.

I don't have the 4th Magus and haven't really tested it to be honest. I think you could trim the 21st land for the 8th Moon for sure. The one drawback I think is that grixis Delver rules the metashare and bolt essentially turns off you moon lock. Even one turn in that situation could lose the game if you can't get Chalice protection right off the bat. Blue has to choose whether they want to be locked out of one drops or mana with the FoW in the first two turns.

SGC I think is worth testing. I think it's CMC might be a little bit of a draw back, but I think your point is valid for sure. I would rather have that than the 8th Moon. The Mox Diamond isn't really crucial, but the extra acceleration is very nice. The other thing about SGC in stompy builds is that Moggcatcher is usually how you get it in to play. I have also though about Jaya Ballard, Task Mage. She seems pretty good just by herself and with the dragon.

[Princessforfun]

Uhhhh, Mirage Mirror seems really really good from Hour of devastation:

http://mythicspoiler.com/hou/cards/miragemirror.html

[Scott]

It's just from one MTGO 5-0 result (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=23735&iddeck=185179), but Grasping Dunes is interesting new tech for Stax. It's not Stax's only problem, but Delvers, etc. getting in before lock pieces are a problem, and an uncounterable & recurrable solution is worth testing.

[P210]

It's just from one MTGO 5-0 result (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=23735&iddeck=185179), but Grasping Dunes is interesting new tech for Stax. It's not Stax's only problem, but Delvers, etc. getting in before lock pieces are a problem, and an uncounterable & recurrable solution is worth testing.

So, up to date version of the 8x manland "stock" list? I've been running a similar verison of that for some time, using Warping Wail as an additional removal / utility card, but no idea if thats needed.
Think I'll try to include some Grasping Dunes for testing. Having a recurring way to deal with x/1 creatures seems nice, also x/2 is in reach but needs some investment.
I'm still not sold on those Rishadan Ports. Port can be nice, but most of the time I want to play a permanent or activate the manlands instead. Also no gravehate seems suboptimal for me...
Does someone has an idea against which matchup the Hangarback Walkers are sided in?

[Barachai]

So, up to date version of the 8x manland "stock" list? I've been running a similar verison of that for some time, using Warping Wail as an additional removal / utility card, but no idea if thats needed.
Think I'll try to include some Grasping Dunes for testing. Having a recurring way to deal with x/1 creatures seems nice, also x/2 is in reach but needs some investment.
I'm still not sold on those Rishadan Ports. Port can be nice, but most of the time I want to play a permanent or activate the manlands instead. Also no gravehate seems suboptimal for me...
Does someone has an idea against which matchup the Hangarback Walkers are sided in?

I find Port odd in a deck running Crucibles, seems like Ghost Quarter would be better most of the time. Dunes is interesting, not killing DRS had me worried about it, but maybe it's worth a go.

I imagine hangarback walker is for any matchup where the opponent is running abrupt decay etc.

[MrFrowny_]

So a straight up colorless stax list got 7th in the Legacy Challenge this week. This was the list;

Creatures
4 Lodestone Golem

Artifacts
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Mox Diamond
4 Ratchet Bomb
4 Smokestack
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Tangle Wire

Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Grasping Dunes
1 Inventors' Fair
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Mutavault
3 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Spellskite
2 Zuran Orb
3 Hangarback Halker
1 Razormane Masticore
2 Thought-Knot Seer

[mistercakes]

that guy has been running almost the same list for years now:

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/player/Charlie-in-the-Mox

[Dice_Box]

New(ish) toy.

http://media.wizards.com/2017/hou/en_S5xuMlR96l.png

[Mr. Safety]

New(ish) toy.

http://media.wizards.com/2017/hou/en_S5xuMlR96l.png

I think Pox wants that card. It may be worse than Mishra's Factory, but it could become copy #5.

[Dice_Box]

I think we want it too. It replaces God's eye unless you want a colourless token.

[Sibelius]

So I ran a league with STAX after changing the list a bit. You can watch it here

https://thelibraryatpendrellvale.com/legacy-league-stax/

Or here

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLKDqcQOcSes2GlO9wG0oF6cZQrYRITTIL

I hope you enjoy it!

[paradaxarada]

NIIIICE! Always great this kind of content!

I'm playing a different list without all those manlands, using the manabase more as a toolbox resource than a kill condition, but I think anyway that the Horizon Canopy is a better choice for a deck with 4 crucible of worlds instead of the Monarch Land, also because the fact that the card you'll draw with the monarch, in the best case scenario, you can only play on your next turn.


So I ran a league with STAX after changing the list a bit. You can watch it here

https://thelibraryatpendrellvale.com/legacy-league-stax/

Or here

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLKDqcQOcSes2GlO9wG0oF6cZQrYRITTIL

I hope you enjoy it!

[Dice_Box]

I enjoyed the vids, I must ask though why you would always tap your Tombs for pain man when you did not have to. You had an Urborg in play at one point and you had the right amount of land to cast things, yet you would always leave a man open and take a pain over tapping for Black.

[Claymore]

Against the Eldrazi Taxes there were certainly a few misplays, but I think you could've lasted longer in game 1 and 2 if you prioritized keeping your man lands up and playing out Mishra's Factories, since they can pump each other to block the Thalias.

[CptHaddock]

I enjoyed the vids, I must ask though why you would always tap your Tombs for pain man when you did not have to. You had an Urborg in play at one point and you had the right amount of land to cast things, yet you would always leave a man open and take a pain over tapping for Black.

Sometimes you need to take 2 damage to send your opponent a message.

[Fred_Bear]

Against the Eldrazi Taxes there were certainly a few misplays, but I think you could've lasted longer in game 1 and 2 if you prioritized keeping your man lands up and playing out Mishra's Factories, since they can pump each other to block the Thalias.

I remember thinking the same thing at first. New Thalia brings factories into play tapped, though, which in at least one instance was the case, so it wouldn't have helped with pump. In another situation, the opponent had an active Displacer which was able to blink the Factory before blocking. There were a couple of misplays, but nothing that would've swung that match.

[Dice_Box]

Yea, when the Displacer hit I knew it was in for shit. The correct play would be to tick Bomb to 3 and blow the Displacer, but you had to blow it on 2 or die. It was just a world of shit with no real answer. In the end, its a perfect example of why Stax is not top tier. Its unstable and loses to itself. Also this is the reason I run Tab Main with Ghost Quarters. Sometimes you just fucking get them.

[Claymore]

Yeah after looking at Game 2 again, I think he was prioritizing Porting to prevent Reality Smasher from hitting the field. There was a point where Wasteland was played instead of a Factory, but then the Golem was STP'd anyway and Smasher hit right after. Could port to prevent the smasher but then lose the Factory to Swords, so I think it was all going downhill anyway.

[Chronatog]

So I ran a league with STAX after changing the list a bit. You can watch it here
https://thelibraryatpendrellvale.com/legacy-league-stax/
Or here
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLKDqcQOcSes2GlO9wG0oF6cZQrYRITTIL
I hope you enjoy it!

It was a pleasure to watch a non-cheesy deck in action.

On a separate note, the only lesson we learn from history is that we don't learn from history; there were so many people who were aspired to become monarchs but who died tragically in their futile attempts. God bless the Queen! ;)

[SMRiggin]

Good morning everyone! Long time lurker, but I finally have some relevant discussion so I thought I'd post. I played WStax long ago, but always hated the inconsistency with Sol Lands, Ports, Wastelands and I never felt like I had enough white sources to be consistent enough.

I've always been a prison player at heart. I played Pox for a long time and took a Prison Pox list to a T16 finish at an SCG Legacy open a few years back.

I've come full circle and I'm jonesing to play some stax again. I tested some red stax with blood moon, chalice, etc. Turned into Mono Red Sneak, but wasn't prisony enough for me.

So I'm back. I'm staying. I was inspired by a few of the colorless builds, so I put a list together and I'd like a little feedback.

4 lodestone golem

3 smokestack
4 tanglewire
4 chalice
4 ratchet bomb
4 sphere of resistance
3 ensnaring bridge
3 mox diamond
3 crucible of worlds
1 trading post (this is my flex slot and most likely to change)

4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
3 Rishadan Port
4 wasteland
4 mutavault
4 mishra's factory
2 inventor's fair
1 dust bowl
1 drownyard temple

I would love thoughts and suggestions. I know I've shunned the 4 stack 4 crucible crowd by only including 3 of each, but in testing it always felt bad to have 2 smokestacks in hand early on.

Thanks,
Shawn

[SMRiggin]

Had a small 10 person tournament - played the list directly above. Had a blast.

Rd1 Burn 2-1, 1-0
Lost g1 quickly. G2 saw T1 chalice for 1 followed by chalice on 2 T2. Walked to that win. G3 saw chalice on 1 T1, followed by multiple sphere effects. Stabilized at 3 after he sacked 2 lands to fireblast with 2 sphere effects on the board. Landed third sphere effect and inventor's fair life gain pulled me out of the hole long enough to beat down with 2 factories.

Rd2 BR Reanimator 2-0, 2-0
G1, T1 chalice on 1, T2 Lodestone, T3 lodestone. Opponent scooped. G2 was chalice T2, mutavaults beat down. Kept a 1-lander and sphere effects shut him down.

Rd3 Lands 2-1, 3-0
Aggressively used ancient tomb (to the tune of 14 life lost) landed chalice T1 and spheres T2, T3, Lodestone T4. Never got to loam as I beat him down and used port to tap down lands. He had glacial chasm and stage going for a few turns until I found Dust bowl. G2 lost T3. G3 won a sphere effect filled game where he managed to make a 20/20, but I kept it tapped down with multiple tangle wires until lodestone could finish the job.

Rd4 BR Reanimator 2-1, 4-0
Won G1 after chalice T1 and Smokestack landed t4. Opponent conceded too early, imho. G2 lost to T1 reanimate Grizzle. Tapped down a few turns w/ multiple tangle wires, but only got him down to 8 before he started attacking. G3 won through his blood moon when he locked himself out of black mana and couldn't reanimate. Factories won the beat down with sphere backup.

1st through Swiss

T4 UB Reanumator 1-2, 4-1
G1 chalice on T1, smokestack turn 5. Used ratchet bomb to blow up a lotus petal. G2 saw tide spout reanimated t2. Bye bye permanents. G3 boarded in show package and I stuck a bridge on the show. Bought me a few turns. Tapped down stuff w/ tangle wire. Knocked him down to 5 through lodestone attacks before he found tides pout and bounced my bridge.

Had fun. Trading post was only drawn a few times and was always bad. I think that will change to phyrexian metamorph to potentially copy other fatties.

Shawn

[LoveAndLockPieces]

Had a small 10 person tournament - played the list directly above. Had a blast.

(report...)

Had fun. Trading post was only drawn a few times and was always bad. I think that will change to phyrexian metamorph to potentially copy other fatties.

Shawn

Thanks for sharing!

Your list looks pretty close to the list that has been going around, with successes for a user on MTGO. I was impressed by the list as it has remain largely unchanged over time, with about 3 lands rotating through as new cards are printed. It looks like you've trimmed a Smokestack and Cruicible for the (Trading Post now Metamorph) and an extra flex land. Metamorph seems like a good choice.

I have settled on trimming a Smokestack and Ensnaring Bridge for two flex slots, undecided. And I'm running 1 Inventors' Fair, 1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, and 1 Ghost Quarter in those three land slots, currently.

I have tried Thought-Knot Seer (good) and Oblivion Sower (cute!) in that slot. I was hoping to use Sower to grab a bunch of sac'able permanents, but it hasn't worked out. TKS has performed well, but sometimes causes trouble because it is taxed by Lodestone Golem. I've also considered running Metalworker (almost as a bait spell) or another Sphere in that slot.

The ideal candidate is a 4 or 5 cost threat that also provides a disruptive element. (Four to dodge Abrupt Decay, Five to dodge Fatal Push). Obviously there isn't another Lodestone Golem, so not sure what to run. Lately there have been mentions of Razormane Masticore in Vintage 'Shops. And that is an interesting choice. It is the right cost. Is picking off the stray Deathrite disruptive enough?

...

Overall, very happy with the list. The mana feels just about right. I tried a few variations (adding another Mox) and came back to the baseline config of 26 lands and three Mox. I feel like most games I'm in it. And, in losses, can often point to a particular screw up where some decision cost me the game. It's close and then slips away. Which is nice. (Except for getting completely rolled by Death and Taxes when their disruption curves out perfectly, then it is a bloodbath.)

I'm having surprising trouble against some control decks, though. Like Mentor Miracles. On one hand, this is because Mentor is completely disruptive to winning the permanent race on board. But also, we don't have many true threats. Against a savvy opponent it often goes: they counter the second Sphere and still have a counter for Smokestack. Or manage to remove the Golem with Tangle Wire triggers on the stack. And that's all she wrote. The Factory beats aren't that quick. Which can give the opponent enough time to crawl out from under the Spheres and Wires.

I guess, you can't have it all. I'm still winning more than I'm losing. And really enjoying the deck.

Would love any thoughts on how to beat a control opponent who knows what's what. Or feedback on additional pieces like Metamorph.

[SMRiggin]

Thanks for sharing!

Your list looks pretty close to the list that has been going around, with successes for a user on MTGO. I was impressed by the list as it has remain largely unchanged over time, with about 3 lands rotating through as new cards are printed. It looks like you've trimmed a Smokestack and Cruicible for the (Trading Post now Metamorph) and an extra flex land. Metamorph seems like a good choice.

I have settled on trimming a Smokestack and Ensnaring Bridge for two flex slots, undecided. And I'm running 1 Inventors' Fair, 1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, and 1 Ghost Quarter in those three land slots, currently.

I have tried Thought-Knot Seer (good) and Oblivion Sower (cute!) in that slot. I was hoping to use Sower to grab a bunch of sac'able permanents, but it hasn't worked out. TKS has performed well, but sometimes causes trouble because it is taxed by Lodestone Golem. I've also considered running Metalworker (almost as a bait spell) or another Sphere in that slot.

The ideal candidate is a 4 or 5 cost threat that also provides a disruptive element. (Four to dodge Abrupt Decay, Five to dodge Fatal Push). Obviously there isn't another Lodestone Golem, so not sure what to run. Lately there have been mentions of Razormane Masticore in Vintage 'Shops. And that is an interesting choice. It is the right cost. Is picking off the stray Deathrite disruptive enough?

...

Overall, very happy with the list. The mana feels just about right. I tried a few variations (adding another Mox) and came back to the baseline config of 26 lands and three Mox. I feel like most games I'm in it. And, in losses, can often point to a particular screw up where some decision cost me the game. It's close and then slips away. Which is nice. (Except for getting completely rolled by Death and Taxes when their disruption curves out perfectly, then it is a bloodbath.)

I'm having surprising trouble against some control decks, though. Like Mentor Miracles. On one hand, this is because Mentor is completely disruptive to winning the permanent race on board. But also, we don't have many true threats. Against a savvy opponent it often goes: they counter the second Sphere and still have a counter for Smokestack. Or manage to remove the Golem with Tangle Wire triggers on the stack. And that's all she wrote. The Factory beats aren't that quick. Which can give the opponent enough time to crawl out from under the Spheres and Wires.

I guess, you can't have it all. I'm still winning more than I'm losing. And really enjoying the deck.

Would love any thoughts on how to beat a control opponent who knows what's what. Or feedback on additional pieces like Metamorph.

Thanks for the feedback. I haven't played enough with the list to have solid ideas against the mentor miracles list. Our meta lost all miracles locally when top was banned. I have a bigger tournament in another 3 weeks or so, we will see what happens in that one. Sorry I can't be more help.

I like metamorph the more I test. It can be that reactionary threat response or it can be used proactively to create another sphere effect or lodestone.

I also played 1 Sun Droplet in the SB and I really liked it. Ancient Tomb deals damage so it triggers Droplet.

If you are running the urborg, one other lock piece you might want is Nether Void. I ran it in Prison Pox and as long as I wasn't behind on board, I pretty much auto-won.

Shawn

[Steveman]

Sorcerous Spyglass is hot new tech for Stax. Not only does it shut down problematic cards like Deathrite Shaman / JTMS / AEther Vial / etc, but it also shuts down fetchlands on the play. Having a new turn 1 play that doesn't require Mox Diamond makes Stax more explosive. Fetches are no longer completely safe from lockdown and this gives Stax a new angle of resource denial and threat containment.

I took my classic Stax shell and replaced the 3 Ensnaring Bridges with 3 Sorcerous Spyglass, it's been testing quite well.

25 LAND
6 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
3 City of Traitors
3 Mishra’s Factory
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas

35 SPELLS
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
4 Crucible of World
4 Banishing Light
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Trinisphere
3 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Oblivion Ring

SIDEBOARD
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Humility
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Null Rod

[non-inflammable]

I took my classic Stax shell and replaced the 3 Ensnaring Bridges with 3 Sorcerous Spyglass, it's been testing quite well.

mishra's factory are the only beats? that's ballsy...
and what's the real difference between oblivion ring and banishing light? why the 4-1 split?

[paradaxarada]

My Stax Spyglass List:

Land (27)

4x Ancient Tomb
3x Buried Ruin
4x City of Traitors
1x Drownyard Temple
1x Dunes of the Dead
3x Ghost Quarter
2x Grasping Dunes
3x Inventors' Fair
1x Karakas
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4x Wasteland

Artifact (31)

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Crucible of Worlds
4x Ensnaring Bridge
4x Mox Diamond
3x Smokestack
4x Sorcerous Spyglass
4x Sphere of Resistance
4x Tangle Wire

Creature (2)

1x Hangarback Walker
1x Walking Ballista

Sideboard (15)

1x Forcefield
2x Hangarback Walker
1x Helm of Obedience
4x Leyline of the Void
2x Mindbreak Trap
2x Walking Ballista
3x Warping Wail

Sphere is much more valueble on this deck these days than Trinisphere, as it tax Kcommand, Leovold, JTMS, Show and tell, Blood Moon, fiery confluence, etc...

[Steveman]

mishra's factory are the only beats? that's ballsy...
and what's the real difference between oblivion ring and banishing light? why the 4-1 split?

Stax's main win condition is lockdown. I'm never going to win a race via a traditional win condition against their win conditions, therefore creatures are superfluous to the deck. Mishra's Factory is an uncounterable, recursive win condition that also doubles as a mana source. A creature is a waste of a slot, IMO.

Banishing Light is almost strictly better since it can only target permanents that an opponent controls. This means that you play Banishing Light when your opponent has an empty board to feed Smokestack you're still maintaining. It's a very minor upside, but I'll take all the upsides I can get. The only advantage Oblivion Ring really has is if you need to O-Ring your own Chalice for whatever reason to resolve a certain spell and in Hypergenesis scenarios when your opponent has Terastodon. These occasions are much more rare than the Banishing Light scenarios.

[MGB]

I tried playing this deck on MODO a few times but it's crazy hard to keep your time clock under a reasonable amount when you have all of those triggers to stack.

[non-inflammable]

Stax's main win condition is lockdown.

not many people want to play with zero permanents in play, been there...



Banishing Light is almost strictly better since it can only target permanents that an opponent controls.
This means that you play Banishing Light when your opponent has an empty board to feed Smokestack you're still maintaining

that's what i didn't see; cant wait for spyglass...

[LoveAndLockPieces]

Partially at Steveman's list, but also open to anyone's thoughts: I've noticed several experienced players foregoing any dedicated graveyard answers in their sideboards.

Does this come from confidence that the general strategy of shutting down opposing spells and combat is effective enough? Or is it a meta call of not expecting to need it?

My local scene ebbs and flows, but any given week there could be spike in BR Reanimator decks. I don't feel comfortable without Leyline of the Void or a set of Faerie Macabre. I guess Humility can do a fine job at invalidating Reanimator and Dredge while not being as limited. But then, to get there, you're counting on getting 3 turns in. And sometimes you don't get even one.

[Steveman]

Partially at Steveman's list, but also open to anyone's thoughts: I've noticed several experienced players foregoing any dedicated graveyard answers in their sideboards.

Does this come from confidence that the general strategy of shutting down opposing spells and combat is effective enough? Or is it a meta call of not expecting to need it?

My local scene ebbs and flows, but any given week there could be spike in BR Reanimator decks. I don't feel comfortable without Leyline of the Void or a set of Faerie Macabre. I guess Humility can do a fine job at invalidating Reanimator and Dredge while not being as limited. But then, to get there, you're counting on getting 3 turns in. And sometimes you don't get even one.

Graveyard decks take a lot of damage from Chalice / Humility already. My list in particular has 5 Oblivion Ring effects so removal is not a problem.

EDIT: there is room for flexibility in my sideboard, especially for local metas. I’ve been using the same sideboard cards forever to try and cover all my bases. This sb was designed during Goblin / Merfolk days, but it’s still effective.

[caprino]

Graveyard decks take a lot of damage from Chalice / Humility already. My list in particular has 5 Oblivion Ring effects so removal is not a problem.

EDIT: there is room for flexibility in my sideboard, especially for local metas. I’ve been using the same sideboard cards forever to try and cover all my bases. This sb was designed during Goblin / Merfolk days, but it’s still effective.

Write You List thx

[Steveman]

Write You List thx

25 LAND
6 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
3 City of Traitors
3 Mishra’s Factory
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas

35 SPELLS
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
4 Crucible of World
4 Banishing Light
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Trinisphere
3 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Oblivion Ring

SIDEBOARD
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Humility
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Null Rod

[SMRiggin]

So what are people swapping out for the Spyglass? I'm running a mono-brown list (it's a little further up the page.) I'm curious to see what people are cutting to find room for it, as I want to give it a go but I only have 1 real flex slot that is currently Phyrexian Metamorph.

Thx,
Shawn

[paradaxarada]

So what are people swapping out for the Spyglass? I'm running a mono-brown list (it's a little further up the page.) I'm curious to see what people are cutting to find room for it, as I want to give it a go but I only have 1 real flex slot that is currently Phyrexian Metamorph.

Thx,
Shawn

I'm also runningn a mono-brown list and I cut 4 Ratchet Bomb for 4 Sorcerous Spyglass.

[SMRiggin]

I'm also runningn a mono-brown list and I cut 4 Ratchet Bomb for 4 Sorcerous Spyglass.

Interesting. You haven't noticed any kind of weakness in the removal side?

Shawn,

[Steveman]

For those testing Sorcerous Spyglass, how many have you been running? I originally started at 2 but wanted more. I currently like running 3 copies since they can be pretty redundant in certain scenarios / matchups. I haven't tested 4 yet since I'd have to cut 1 Oblivion Ring, but it's not out of the question. For those who have been testing x4 Sorcerous Spyglass, do you like it or do you think it's too much?

[Nekrataal]

For those testing Sorcerous Spyglass, how many have you been running? I originally started at 2 but wanted more. I currently like running 3 copies since they can be pretty redundant in certain scenarios / matchups. I haven't tested 4 yet since I'd have to cut 1 Oblivion Ring, but it's not out of the question. For those who have been testing x4 Sorcerous Spyglass, do you like it or do you think it's too much?

In Brown Stax I currently play 2 max due to Inventors' Fair. I just need it for Planeswalkers or a few critical creatures anyway, so 1-2 seems enough. The trick to shutdown fetchlands is something that does not always work and on the long run is sometimes too short-sigthed imho. So I do not feel like maximizing it. The deck usually needs many turns to establish a lock where an opponent can draw into all kinds of stuff.

[LoveAndLockPieces]

I'm trimming down to two Spyglass in the side to see how that feels.

I've been mostly running around three in the main since they became available. Was very excited to test the effect as it sure would be great to have another solid 2cmc lock piece. But in that light, I'm rarely thrilled to see it. I has come up as a key play maybe one in 10 games (in a sample of around 40).

I'm much more appreciative of it as a Pithing Needle that dodges Chalice, as a Revoker that is immune to Fatal Push. From that perspective, it is great! But I think that relegates it to the side.

[kwèk]

I would like to thank Michael Coyle for his contributions to the Prison Community.
I've been Trolling my way to the top with his brew this weekend... on the "Dutch Open Series".

I believe it was a 100+ players event. (but correct me if I'm wrong)
I ran his same 75 that he used on the last SCG Legacy event. ( http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=17345&d=307301&f=LE)

7 rounds of swiss:

Round 1: 2-0 Elves (Win)
Round 2: 2-0 Grixis Delver (Win)
Round 3: 2-1 BUG Delver (Win)
Round 4: 2-1 Grixis Delver (Win)
Round 5: 2-0 Moonwalkers (Mono R Planeswalkers STAX) (Win)
Round 6: I. D.
Round 7: I. D.

7 people said that they were agreeing with splitting the pot. I was undecided. I didn't really mind, what ever they agreed on whas good for me.
So Pot was split. Then there were still some unsplittable prices... so you could play top 8 if you want. My opponent wanted to go home... so I went to the half final.
There I faced off another Moonwalker List... Fiery Confluence wrecked me hard. Lost both games... I was okay with it. At least one person trolled his way to the top... won the tournament too.

I got a bit lucky with my draws... You can prey on stuff that doesnt run to much non-basics. Spyglass vs Deathrite Shaman has changed the game a lot. I'm so glad they printed that card.

I think the list is pretty good... I'm not sure if "defense grid" is better then "Winter Orb" tough. I never brought it in... neither did I board in "Tabernacle". Winter Orb is problematic with "Tangle Wire" and "Trinisphere"... so if you want to walk that path, you will have to watch out.

You can see the deck perform on the twitch stream:


https://www.twitch.tv/videos/200654698

02:47:32 - Round 3
04:51:31 - Round 5

Michael Coyles performance can be seen on youtube, if you want to have more stax fun.
It's from a local tournament I guess? Apperently he came in 1st and 2nd in 2 diffrent tournies.

Round 1: https://youtu.be/ypwQg3Imfic (Elves)
Round 3: https://youtu.be/Vp6VWAtpaJg (UWR Stoneblade)
1/4th Final: https://youtu.be/KDZZ1paVhRU (Grixis Pyromancer)
Finals: https://youtu.be/j-UJXEg5lYM (BUG Delver)

[Nossman3]

Yup Coyle keeps reaching good position in Big Events with Mud /Stax makes me Hope for the dream.
Would really like to talk to him about the deck and some tuning

[kwèk]

What goes up... has to come down.
Got one serious Ass Whuppin this weekend... went to a local tournament. 6 rounds.
Still played the same list (see Coyle's Deckslist top 16 in SCG)

Round 1: 1-2 UWr R.I.P. Combo (Helminator) (Loss)
Round 2: 2-1 Colorless Eldrazi (Win)
Round 3: 0-2 Lands (Loss)
Round 4: 2-0 UWr Stoneblade (Patriot) (Win)
Round 5: 1-2 UWr Miracles (Loss)
Round 6: 1-2 Grixis Control (Loss)



Round 1: Opponent drew a couple of Basics, and the combo... 2 and 4 casting costs kinda ruined the great opening I had. Just death. Won the 2nd one really quick (with combo as well). 3th game I ended up facing an "Energy Flux" and "Back To Basics" ... But I had a Metalworker out... But I couldn't find a sol land to try and combo out.

Round 2: Opponent lost to Bridges. Strange thing is that he won game 1 even tough there was a Bridge out. Apperently some endless ones + Eldrazi Scions (go go warping wail) beats a hand that gets flooded with Ancients Tombs.

Round 3: Got pretty much obliterated here.

Round 4: My opponent made mistakes first game... I made some mistakes too (I wasn't proud of myself). But I ended stealing game 1. Game 2 I just locked it up.

Round 5: Game 1 got overpowered by a Mentor. He just ran 1 mana spells into chalice, the tokens + A Tombs did the rest. Won game 2 super quick. Lost game 3 because my opponent naturally draws Engineered Explosives + Dissenchant (no ponder / brainstorm / jace) ... The Chant was just brutal, cause without it, I would have probably won in the next turn since I had the combo, metalworker just needed to get rid of summon sickness.

Round 6: Lost Game 1, Locked Gamed 2, ... and game 3 I kept a 5 card hand: Wasteland + Ancient Tomb + Inventor's Fair + Ensnaring Bridge + Staff of Domination. Scried "Serum Powder" to the bottom. Then I drew 6 lands, including 2x Ancient Tomb + 2x Inventors Fair and no wasteland... Opponent made Jace in turn 6, faith sealed 2 cards to the bottom... 8 draw steps later I ended with 11 lands and 2 spells... and opponent had bloodmoon out.

That was pretty much it.
A lot more basics today... and the lands player just Quartered + Wasteland my entire plan.
A lot of games that I lost were still super close... Except for the lands and the few decks that I lost by extreme mulliganing.

[into_play]

Greetings fellow prison lovers! I have always been a lurker of this thread, but this is my first time (I believe) posting here. My main gig in Legacy is playing 12Post, but I have always had an appreciation for Stax variants. Today I took an older style list to a small local tournament. Even though the data I got was small (3 rounds played), I feel like there is still a lot to think about and I would like to contribute to the discussion here. This was my list:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Mutavault
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
3 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

4 Lodestone Golem

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Ratchet Bomb
4 Tangle Wire
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Smokestack
3 Mox Diamond
3 Ensnaring Bridge

Sideboard:
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Metalworker
2 Sun Droplet
1 Ensnaring Bridge

The maindeck is exactly the same as the man-land list that has been floating around for a couple years, except the three land flex spots are Tabernacles. The card has such a unique and powerful function for the mana denial gameplan, and ranges from being completely devastating to just useful in most non-combo matchups (and some combo matchups as well). I know most people don't have access to three of the card, but I am lucky enough to be able to, so I went in with all of them.

In the sideboard, the four Metalworkers should probably not be there. Honestly, I was late leaving for the tournament and couldn't find anything else to put in the slots that might be useful in time, so I stuck the workers in. The Sun Droplets were also to be a test as an answer against Burn. As I tune the sideboard, I will probably be looking to make the 4 Metalworker and 2 Sun Droplet spots into 3 and 3 of midrange answers (if there are any) and burn answers (thinking either Sun Droplet or Zuran Orb).

Matches

Grixis Delver (Won 2-0)
The deck did its thing perfectly here. Game one, I got a Chalice at one down on the play first turn. In the second game, he managed to get a Delver and Young Pyromancer out, but Tabernacle kept him taxed until I was able to play Crucible and Wasteland him out the game.

Nic Fit (Won 2-0)
I got very lucky here, as this should probably be a terrible matchup. The first game, he mulled to oblivion. The only cards I saw were a basic Plains and a Phyrexian Tower (which gave away that he was Nic Fit) but I didn't side anything in. Game two, he didn't find a Veteran Explorer and I was able to land a turn two Smokestack.

Maverick (Lost 1-2)
Another dreaded midrange opponent. The first game, he played a Thalia to restrict me and do most of the damage to me. He also had Noble Hierarchs and Qasali Pridgemages, both great cards against the strategy of the Stax deck. I eventually got an Ensnaring Bridge out, but couldn't dump my hand fast enough against Thalia. I boarded out four Sphere or Resistance (in light of his Thalia) and a Lodestone Golem for four Phyrexian Revokers and the fourth Bridge. I didn't see Life from the Loam after a long game, so I didn't bring in the Leylines. Game two went long, but I was able to reach my late game of Waste-lock and Smokestack combined with a Bridge and Tabernacle to overcome a 10/10 Knight of the Reliquary. Revoker was also great here, stopping his Knight activations. Game three, he was simply able to get lots of permanents out fast enough (Noble Hierarch and two Mother of Runes) and I couldn't find a Tabernacle. Revoker was helpful again, but I needed to name a Pridemage with one of them instead of Deathrite Shaman. At least the games I lost still felt reasonably close and winnable.

For my sideboard, if I were able to find the cards I wanted in time, I believe I would have replaced the four Metalworker with a third Sun Droplet and three Spellskite. With Sun Droplet, getting one down early enough against Burn will help gain life all on its own. Compare it to Zuran Orb, which kind of requires a Crucible or enough lands drawn to function well.

The Spellskites seem decent against the midrange decks, being able to redirect Abrupt Decays and block smaller things on the ground. Another option for those matchups might be Hangarback Walker, although the thopter tokens would not play well with my Tabernacles. One issue I have in sideboarding against midrange is finding enough cards to take out. I am usually always bringing in the Revokers against them (for Deathrite Shaman as well as many other threats). Having another three cards to bring in would probably be too much. I will be working in the future to try and find some better answers for these quandaries.

[kwèk]

@ into play:

Either take the "Lodestone Golem" OR take the "Metalworker".

Metalworker = More explosiveness
Lodestone Golem = Bigger Clock on prison piece.

I'm not a fan of the Gollem. I tried it out for a while... but Kinda gave up on it.
The reason why? ... Because your deck's synergy is kinda strange.

Gollem + Bridge ... is a bit of a strange combination. Your Gollem is often blocked by your own bridge... and then you will stax them out (get them to 0 permanents, where they are literally in prison... and then you can beat them to dead. In the meantime, the gollem just acts as a really expensive sphere (since you don't run "trinisphere" ... your gollem costs 5 or more with "sphere of resistance").

If you put someone in a prison, and they can't do anything anymore... 5 damage or 1 damage... really doesn't matter. Unless you are in "time".
... it's of course a choice, and you need to play what you feel good with. But I've changed my ways, and I believe it's just better. An unanswered metalworker turn 1 ... can be devestating turn 2 for your opponent.

I'm also not the biggest fan of the Lands. I know what you are trying to do... but I'm not a fan of it. Been there, done that... and the consistency just isn't there for me. But I'll happy to listen to more players over this issue.

Biggest asset printed for "chalice" - prison style decks... is "Sorcerouss Spyglass". That card is just amazing: Knight of the Reliquary, Death Rite Shaman, Planeswalkers, Jitte (no 0 power creatures boosting under bridge), fetchlands... ETC ETC... it just answeres a lot of problems STAX may encounter. so if you want to push something in the sideboard... think of "spyglass".




I went to play with Michael Coyle's strategy again this weekend... for those that are intrested.
I ran the same 60 cards (see above) and changed the sideboard.

3x Grafdiggers Cage ... Is a bit of a metagame choice I guess. I wanted to try out 3x Tormod's Crypt in this spot.
3x Ratchet Bomb... I changed 1 ratchetbomb to tabernacle number 2. Since I disliked blowing up my own chalices and mox diamonds (to take out tokens). I can still tutor up a bomb if I need it for something else.

I'm pretty much in love with the list Coyle is using. Even tough I believe that (depending on the metagame) the mono R deck maybe superior in a lot of sitations.
The fact that you can tutor up stuff + get things back with "buried" ruins is soooooo good. And the Metalworker + Staff plan is great for the match ups where stax suffers from incompatible match ups. Deck is still metagame depended... and some match ups are still horrific. But Metalworker can just give you the edge to squeeze out a win. I'm still working on how to sideboard... and I make mistakes. Still learning, but it's an incredible fun list.

Results were:

Round 1: 1-1 Grixis Control (Draw - Lost the die roll)
Round 2: 1-2 NiC FiT (Loss - Lost the die roll)
Round 3: 2-0 Elves (Win - Lost the die roll)
Round 4: 2-1 The Epic Storm (Win - Lost the die roll)
Round 5: 0-2 UB Delver (Loss - Lost the die roll)
Round 6: 2-0 Aluren (Win - Win the die roll)
Round 7: 2-1 Slivers(Win - Win the die roll)

17th place of 66 players... with a 4-2-1 record. Not good, not bad... still learning.
The matchs ups were really diffrent... I faced a lot less controll, which helps a lot. Black is still the most wonky splash colour for tempo decks to play against... cause it attacks your hand, and that can be super important if you only play 1 spell a turn (because of trinisphere). Your long term plans can be twarted by some pin point accurate discard spells.


Game 1: I should have scooped game 1. But I wasn't loosing yet. I wasn't sure if he could answer my board, even tough he was ahead. I still had outs... but they were slim. Should have just scooped game 1... I got game 2, and then I got in a strange position that could have gone either way game 3. So it ended in a draw.

Game 2: Loosing the die roll here is terrible. Cause having a quick Veteran Explorer out generates 2 permanents. Which you don't want. Just like pox, stax needs to get away from card advantage + permanent advantage on board. I won game 2 by combo playing. And lost game 3 by mulliganing to 5, and he had 2x Cabal Therapy in hand. He opened with therapy, and said "chalice of the void". My hand was: Chalice, Chalice, Wasteland, Rishadan's Port, Crucible of world. (sigh) ... then he played another therapy in turn 2, naming crucible... removing 2 of them out of my hand, because I picked one up during the draw step (I scried smokestack to the bottom). So that was the game. I think I made a mistake boarding here... but oh well, still learning.

Game 3: Elves... I had an extremely bad opening hand... and played annyway, because I mulliganed to 6 and I had some answers against random decks. When he played "nettle sentil" ... I already went "darn". I scried a "serum powder" to the bottom. My sequence of draws were: "Chalice" , "Trinisphere" , "Staff of Domination" ... and I had a metalworker in hand, and enough mana to cast everything. That was pretty much GG. Game 2 was just a walk over.

Game 4: Opponent made goblins turn 2 ... I couldn't empty my hand for bridge. After sideboard I kinda won on the play (which was expected) and then there was a finger crossing for the play again. The only way he can stop most hands in this deck is either storm for 10 with tendrills turn 1 , or some amazing discard. I mulliganed to 5 aggresively, and I had a superb hand of: "Chalice, Sphere of resistance, trinisphere, Sol Land, Ratchet Bomb". It's a 1 lander, but I have a turn 1 play (chalice or sphere) , I can blow up tokens... and if I draw a land trinisphere is in. He didn't pull the trigger on turn 1, and just played ponder + probe. I guess he didn't find what he wanted... and I just took over from there. I even drew the second chalice so it was: "chalice for 1 , chalice for 0" on turn 1 , Trinisphere on turn 2 (because I drew a land) ... from there on I got a crucible and a wasteland going... and I slowly got myself out of the "what could be"-mess

Game 5: UB Delver... was super intresting game. I put my opponent in a position that he had to top deck to get out of a lock. He had 2 turns to get out, and chalice on 1 was active (so no brainstorm or ponder). I was missing bridge... but I had a crucible + smokestack going. Stack is just slow... and I counted out it would take 2 turns to get rid of the gurmag angler that was on the other side of the table. In his first draw step he got a "true name nemesis". Which is not only a permanent, but also a creature that changes the clock by 3 points of damadge. I got a bridge in my 2nd draw step (the one just before I was going to die) but my opponent had a FoW that he drew AFTER the TNN. Perfect cards for my opponent... since he needed to change the clock to make it worst (only giving me ensnaring bridge as an out) and then he drew FoW to counter anny bridge I might top deck. 2nd game I mulliganed to 5, and my opponent had a thoughtzeize + cabal therapy. He had a 7 card hand... it happens I guess.

Game 6: Aluren... well, you have to have a trinisphere out, and protect it. Or have your chalice on 2... which I did. I felt a bit sad for my opponent, cause he didn't know the interaction of trinisphere and aluren. Which came up the first game. He was sure that his cavern harpy costed 0 (which it does) and he was sure he shouldn't pay annything for it (which is right)... but I couldn't seem to explain that he should pay the trinisphere... Cause trinisphere demands some respect... even from aluren. He asked the judge, which was a young guy that apperently was still in his learning face of becoming the best judge ever. Judge kinda made it worst... cause he ruled against me, and I wanted to call the headjudge, because I didn't agree. It went a bit like this:

Judge: "Aluren says creatures with casting cost lower than 3 can be cast for 0 mana with flash."
Me: "You are correct, the creature costs 0 and has flash... and then you have to pay 3 for trinisphere."
Judge: "No, Aluren says that creatures cost 0"
Me: "Again... you are correct... and then you pay 3 for Trinisphere. The creature costs 0, and trinisphere demands you pay 3.".
Judge - *get's busy on smartphone*
Opponent: "I'm sure my opponent is not correct, cause there is only 1 card that can disrupt this combo... and that's "Ethersworn Canonist"."
Me: "I can name you at least 5 cards that disrupt your combo from the top of my head"
Opponent: "There is only one card that can disrupt Aluren, that's "Ethersworn Canonist"".
Me: "Ethersworn Canonist, Sphere of Resistance, Trinisphere, Rule of Law, Arcane Laboratory" (and I forgot Lodestone Gollem)
Opponent: :eyebrow:
Judge: "Oh, I found it... apparently "Trinisphere" is the exception to the rule"
Me: "No, it's not an exception... it's just the rule. You apply cost increase, then cost decrease... and then trinisphere checked if you payed at least 3 for the entire cost. If you didn't, you will have to pay up to 3.".
Judge: :eyebrow:

Anyway... at the end of the discussion I felt bad because my opponent felt bad... and the judge did his job... and cavern harpy still costs 0 but trinisphere demands respect. RESPECT DAMNED!
So everyone payed at least 3 for almost all of their spells, and trinisphere had a great day.

But I can understand the opponents point... since he doesnt know the interaction, and he was super sure of his case. And then someone agrees with him, because the judge made the mistake by just looking up the oracle text of "aluren", while "trinisphere" is actually the rulling we are looking for. So he got support for his conviction, even though it was the wrong one. Everyone understands aluren... you can flash in creatures all day, but you have to pay 3 for the sphere. Luckely for anny of them I wasn't playing Humility + Opalescence + Parallax Wave combos... that could have been some real fun.

Round 7: Friend of mine played the sliver deck. After sideboard ... I should have everything I need to compete with this. Loads of slivers don't do annything... and I just need to get them away from 3 mana for "Harmonic Sliver". Once Harmonic, gets a shot at the board... things go down pretty badly for me. I raised him in game 1 and 3 ... and I'm pretty sure I made some terrible sideboarding error in game 2.



Still love the deck. Super fun, and you have some back up plays with "buried ruins" and "inventors fair".

[gRR!!]

Hey there folks,

I played Stax a couple weeks ago in my LGS (I keep trying different combo or prison decks this year). I ended 3-1 and I happened to win the tournament due to weird tiebreakers. My only loss was a 0-1 against a GW Zenith deck (bad pairing, I think). This line on the above post (nice report kwèk, I LOLd with the Aluren/Trini RESPECT) sums pretty well the situation:


Game 1: I should have scooped game 1. But I wasn't loosing yet.

I was struggling during all game 1. I wasn't winning, but I wasn't losing neither. And when I was really losing, there was no time left to try a comeback. What do you do in this kind of situation, when game stalls and you are not really in control?

[kwèk]

I was struggling during all game 1. I wasn't winning, but I wasn't losing neither. And when I was really losing, there was no time left to try a comeback. What do you do in this kind of situation, when game stalls and you are not really in control?


The situation on board came down to:


I had 3x Ensnaring Bridge on board
I had 1x Spyglass on board , which was keeping "Jace the mindsculptor" at bay.
I had Crucible + Smokestack (but my smokestack was on 0 because of an enormous amount of 1/1 tokens from young pyromancer)
I had some lock pieces... and we both had an enormous amount of mana.

My opponent had Jace... some cards in hand (probably counterspells, since I wasn't doing much) ...
He had an enormous amount of Tokens + Young Pyromancer (which I can't really deal with EXCEPT for smokestack... but it was way to late for that)
He had a gurmag Angler and a True Name Nemesis.
He had a pithing needle (1 mainboard) which said "staff of domination".

Annyway... this is a fairly stalemate game UNLESS he can remove ALL the bridge or the needle. If he removes the spyglass, I can try to buy it back numerous times and hope jace never gets to 13.
If he blows up all the bridges... (at once) ... I just get an attack in for lethal.
He already spend a "Kologhans command" on the spyglass... used it to brainstorm. I bought spyglass back and recasted it, because back then, he didn't have a counterspell.

So 1 removal spell for artifacts is gone.

So his outs are:

- Kologhans command + Loads of counterspells to keep spyglass from doing it's thing
- Something that kills every bridge... the only out I could think of during the game is "engineered explosives" since I can't see Grixis controll running a massive bounce spell like "echoing truths".
- Direct damadge... but I had a lot of lives... I don't think he would have made that, even with flashing back bolts. Chlice was on 1 by that time annyway. At some point it sticked on the table.

Not everyone plays E.E. mainboard... so I took the risk in playing it out. I had nothing to do but draw and play... since he pondered , brainstormed his deck to less then 30 cards. I still had a 30+ card deck at the time, because I draw less stuff. The combo (on my side) was out of the equation since he had a mainboard pithing needle, which at some point hit the table and named "staff".


These decks sometimes run long... so you have to know when to walk away from a game.
This counts for everything you are playing. IF there is nothing more to do then wait for the final blow... just scoop. Don't take the risk that he doesnt have a win condition unless you are absolutely sure (then it's not a risk)... or it's game 3 and you need to win it what ever the cost. Then you don't nescesarily need to walk away from a game. I think it comes by experience... you only have 50 minutes... and you need to win 2 games. That's how it works. If you have outs... then play to your outs. If only your opponent has outs left... (like my game) ... then it's sometimes just hard to see if you have to call it quits or not. It also depends on how much time you spend playing your first game.

What I like about the metalworker + staff build... is that if a game takes super long... you have a good chance in killing someone turn 3 / 4 even turn 2 if you have the perfect hand... just watch out when you go for it... cause a "fatal push" + "surgical extraction" , can kill off your enire game plan before your metal worker looses summoning sickness. Try to have chalice back up unless you are sure or have to go for it.


Annyway... things were looking way better for him then for me. I should have scooped and gambled on the fact that he had a "Engineered Explosives".
I can't sacrifice my own spyglass to smokestack and buy it back... cause that would just make me loose to jace.
My only gameplan was decking my opponent, and that could only work out if the things didn't happened as mentioned above.

At the moment I only played 3 tournies with the deck.

1: 5-0-2
2: 2-4-0
3: 4-2-1

So only 1 real draw... since the first 2 were itentional draws to lock me in for top 8. For a slow grinding deck like STAX, that's pretty okay I guess. You just have to feel when to walk away. Cause a draw in the beginning of the tourney is kinda bad... unless that guy goes for 1st or 2nd place after your swiss rounds... which is great for your tie breakers (I guess).

[Fred_Bear]

@kwek - Great report and even better analysis. I loved reading it.

This is really important point...



These decks sometimes run long... so you have to know when to walk away from a game.
This counts for everything you are playing. IF there is nothing more to do then wait for the final blow... just scoop. Don't take the risk that he doesnt have a win condition unless you are absolutely sure (then it's not a risk)... or it's game 3 and you need to win it what ever the cost. Then you don't nescesarily need to walk away from a game. I think it comes by experience... you only have 50 minutes... and you need to win 2 games. That's how it works. If you have outs... then play to your outs. If only your opponent has outs left... (like my game) ... then it's sometimes just hard to see if you have to call it quits or not. It also depends on how much time you spend playing your first game.



You have to know your deck very well and whether or not you are built to handle situations like these. Stax is sometimes quite poor at getting out of situations where the opponent has a distinct board advantage (i.e. tokens flooding the board). Unless you have the ability to ramp your Smokestack to 2, it can be very difficult to dig yourself out and, as kwek points out, you have to play to your outs and look for virtual card advantage wherever you can get it. If you have nothing left, it's best for everyone to scoop and win the next two. [Obviously don't do this if you are down a game or it's game 3]

[kwèk]

I'm not that good
... so don't take it from me... but knowing the field is important... you need to play around stuff, need to think what the outs of your opponent are... sometimes just blindly slam a spyglass, look at their hand... and say something completely diffrent then annything you see, cause you know there are certain cards you need to avoid in the later game.

Most of the time (unless a quick metal worker goes unanswered) you need to plan in the long run. Knowing when to get up your stack is super important. If you know the opponent has more permananents then you have... then it's quite tricky to go stacking for 2 or 3 ... you can see one of the games Coyled played (see link I posted above). He has a game somewhere where he has 2x smokestack in play for 3 turns , and doesnt add a counter... just keeps it on 0. His opponent is WAY ahead on permanents, and has 12 tokens that came out from shaman... getting your stack up is just a loosing battle in this position. He only added (or started to add counters) when he blew up all the counters with ratchet bomb.

Knowing when to stack, and when not stack is important. Everything that craps out permanets against smokestack (or anny other resource denial plan like POX) is just bad.
- Balefull strix, leaves a permanent + draws a card
- Veteran explorer, is basically 3 permanents to sack to smokestack
- Pyromancer is terrible if left unchecked if you are on the stack plan
...

[Fred_Bear]

I'm not that good
... so don't take it from me... but knowing the field is important... you need to play around stuff, need to think what the outs of your opponent are... sometimes just blindly slam a spyglass, look at their hand... and say something completely diffrent then annything you see, cause you know there are certain cards you need to avoid in the later game.

Most of the time (unless a quick metal worker goes unanswered) you need to plan in the long run. Knowing when to get up your stack is super important. If you know the opponent has more permananents then you have... then it's quite tricky to go stacking for 2 or 3 ... you can see one of the games Coyled played (see link I posted above). He has a game somewhere where he has 2x smokestack in play for 3 turns , and doesnt add a counter... just keeps it on 0. His opponent is WAY ahead on permanents, and has 12 tokens that came out from shaman... getting your stack up is just a loosing battle in this position. He only added (or started to add counters) when he blew up all the counters with ratchet bomb.

Knowing when to stack, and when not stack is important. Everything that craps out permanets against smokestack (or anny other resource denial plan like POX) is just bad.
- Balefull strix, leaves a permanent + draws a card
- Veteran explorer, is basically 3 permanents to sack to smokestack
- Pyromancer is terrible if left unchecked if you are on the stack plan
...

I don't know, this is pretty solid advice.

Stax is really a meta-deck and that means you have to know the match-ups better than your opponents to have success. You have to see the lines you have open at any given time and how to maximize your percentages given the cards in your hand (and left in your deck).

I think that is one of the things I like the least about mono-brown - the lack of 'catch-up' cards. White has long used taxes and Armageddon to wipe permanents faster than an opponent can play them. Mono-brown has things like Ratchet Bomb or Powder Keg, but they are not as flexible as you sometimes want...

Still, great advice!

[kingtk3]

Sorry for the dumb question, but aside opponent's conceding and attacking with metalworker, how does this deck win?

Are there any video of this deck in action? It would be great to in order to understand how the games usually flow.

Thanks.

[Dice_Box]

It depends on how you build it. I tun with either a single Ballista or a single Factory. Both offer a way to win much faster. Both are not required.

[kwèk]

Sorry for the dumb question, but aside opponent's conceding and attacking with metalworker, how does this deck win?

Isn't that enough? :tongue:
Once the hard lock is established (super important) you can grab more metalworkers... so damadge can go up to 4 a turn (maximum) before sideboard.
After sideboard... your Walking ballista can become super big... So you can speed up the clock. It has the potential to go infinite.
Next to that... don't forget "decking" ... or getting beaten up by your opponent (physically), calling the judge for bad conduct... that's like a game win :cool:

Also... I've put all the videos, switch streams in my posts. Michael Coyle's games + my games... if more people have games, it would be nice to have them posted here, so we can all learn from eachother.

Also... similair decks can be found on youtube too. Just look up "Stax".
A great example is the "much abrew" series from mtggoldfish... this link is a great place to start looking: https://youtu.be/KxU3ejYFMjo
The build is diffrent... but the idea is the same. Prison them out, then go beat downs... how you beat down? That depends on you... at the moment I'm folowing the metalworker plan... but I tried "Lodestone Gollem" and the 8x Manland tactic too. You can also play colours... like "white" is great for token planeswalkers (Gideon AND/OR Elspeth) , and "Blue Black" gives you access to "tezzeret". You can also go for "stax on a stick" in mono black with "braids cabal minion" and "plague spitter"... (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=13004)

This is a "stax" primer... which is more then just "prison". You either have a big pile of soft locks (which give you time) so you can either evolve the board to a hard lock OR beat downs. The first tactic is full out "prison" where your opponent can literally do nothing OR you can go stompy ... where you buy time by casting annoying soft locks and beat your opponent to pulp with big creatures (like Soldiers) OR combo them out with "mogg catcher".

Mr. Keefer said to me once: "If you live on soft locks, you have to be aware that they will eventually get broken up... therefore your creatures need to be fast, furious, big, painfull and preferably buying more time so they can do their job. If the soft lock gets broken up (which will happen eventually) your hand will not be able to whitstand the flood of cards that are stuck in your opponents hand.". He loves to play stompy and prison-control more then full out stax-prison.... but he's super good at it.

The deck we are discussing here is the hard lock... you buy time to hard lock your opponent... if they can't do annything annymore... it really doesnt matter if you ping them for 1 damadge a turn, or 5 damadge. Once the lock is established, the game is over... so your opponent scoops or you slowly beat him to crap while he plays "draw - go". The cool thing about metal worker... is that you can go "combo" with staff of domination + walking ballista. Which is a great plan B... but plan A is still locking your opponent up with the combination of "Crucible of Worlds + Trinisphere + Smokestack" (those 3 cards, will eventually go into hard lock mode... but you need to buy yourself time to get there).



EDIT:

For those that want to be lazy... I kinda listed this up for you guys:

Clarification of terminology: Diffrence (for me, pure subjective) between “prison” and “control”.

Prison: The Hardlock, your opponent can’t play spells. Nothing he does matters. He’s just stuck. They usually don’t run a lot of answers that are not prison prieces. Their answer is usually the total lock down.
Control: Your opponent can play spells, things he does need to be answered… but your deck is created to generate answers (therefore control) to everything your opponent plays.

There is a difference (for me) in prison strategies, which are the “grey zones” on the axe between “prison” and “control”.

Pure Prison: Locks all decks out of the game 100%. (Examples: Smokestack strategies)
Prison Stompy: Wins time, kicks ass in the meantime (Examples: Soldiers, Angel stompy, Dragon Stompy, Faerie Stompy, Green Plug, Big Red, Eldrazi, Big Eldrazi)
Prison Control: Combines prison pieces with control pieces (Examples: Mono R Prison, Lands)

… The last 2 prison style decks, usually don’t put in a hard lock. HOWEVER… they have the possibility to hard lock some opponents by just playing one card. For instance, the mono R prison style deck that you find here: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=17624&d=309165&f=LE , has the potential of locking out some decks by just playing “blood moon” or “chalice on 1” … but for a lot of other decks this will just be a “soft lock”. Hence he reaches for control (removal, mass removal, like “pyroclasm”) to control the board. His opponent still has the opportunity to do stuff… so they are not fully locked out of the game.

In a “trinisphere” – “Crucible” – “Smokestack” lock… the game is just over (as I said before).

There is of course a lot more out there... like "Death And Taxes". A deck I love a lot... but it doesnt really know what it is. It has this prison element in "Thalia" + "Revoker" + "wasteland" + "Rishadan's port" ... but it also controlls the board... and in some games it just wants to hit people's faces in. All the Prison elements are either on "creatures" or "lands" ... the control elements are Whisps and Equipment... its just a bizar hybrid of a lot of things, but super fun to play.

Enchantress... also depending on the build, can be super prisony. They always use prison elements early... most of the time stopping people from attacking or targetting them... Sometimes they go full combo style, other time they assemble a lot of 1/1s under humility. It's still not fully control cause a lot of the opponents options become "blanks" , casting them really doesnt matter. Sometimes they just full on lock you out of the game with enchantments (see video below).

These decks usually work (again) by “winning time” in the early game, by putting in soft locks… then developing their board to either “hard lock” or “beat the crap” out of people. There are “prison control decks” that take their time and actually put in planeswalkers that will eventually kill their opponent… Or control the board with “jitte” by tutoring it up by playing “stoneforge mystic” (see the UR prison deck below). Another great control piece is “Punishing Fire” + “Grove of the burn willows” which stops early threats.

Here are some streamers I listed up.
BEWARE, not everyone is piloting there deck well... mistakes are made. I guess we all make them (I admit I make a lot of them). But you can see what happens when you forget triggers, or use smokestack wrong, or tanglewire at the wrong time. Learn from the mistakes, they happen.


Hard Lock Stax
https://youtu.be/Z05TJpGQIuE (GP 2015 - MUD vs Storm)
https://youtu.be/SDH9YQ7jIyI (2016 MUD – Chemfy MTG Stream)
https://youtu.be/fIOV8FPZsRU (2016 MUD – Chemfy MTG)
https://youtu.be/aTNWbT_FET4 (2016 MUD – Chemfy MTG)
https://youtu.be/FvouksdQfZM (2016 MUD – Chemfy MTG)
https://youtu.be/XzvLrjIuFUw (2016 MUD – Chemfy MTG)
https://youtu.be/cm06W-3PfF8 (2017 Stream from Atog_lord - there is some vintage mixed into this, it’s kinda messy… but you can scroll between vintage Gifts and Legacy MUD games)
https://youtu.be/x2b200mo4h4 (2017 MUD - The Library At Pendrell Vale)
https://youtu.be/zX_ne1xcbJQ (2017 MUD - The Library At Pendrell Vale)
https://youtu.be/Mwi_q5Kd_oY (2017 MUD - The Library At Pendrell Vale)
https://youtu.be/NQCB_nWz5CQ (2017 MUD - The Library At Pendrell Vale)
https://youtu.be/ntkre1fER1k (2017 MUD - The Library At Pendrell Vale)
https://youtu.be/MbhMnZ5QnSQ (2017 MUD - The Library At Pendrell Vale)
https://youtu.be/mNxUWX0JAVc (2017 MUD – MTGGoldfish)
https://youtu.be/-O4Aa3VW7h8 (2017 MUD – MTGGoldfish)
https://youtu.be/bmTTUuOJvXw (2017 MUD – MTGGoldfish)
https://youtu.be/50Nf8kUhO_8 (2017 MUD – MTGGoldfish)
https://youtu.be/IUqh5ly9K4k (2017 MUD – MTGGoldfish)

I forgot if this guy ever plays a smokestack… but he has the potential to hardlock his opponent (depending on their deck choice) with “Wasteland” + “Crucible” + “Lodestone Gollem”. If he runs Smokestack you might as well totally ignore this comment.

https://youtu.be/sTwnkzj-1Xo (2017 White Splash – Second Chance MTG)
https://youtu.be/I5ZqF4Me9yA (2017 White Splash – Second Chance MTG)

Other prison style decks that usually don’t “hardlock” and that are not really stompy-style decks:

https://youtu.be/5Bu7HFWlrhQ (2009 Tezzeret Prison - SCG)
https://youtu.be/Y_oKOrcN2ZA (2017 Humility Prison – Brainstorm MTG)
https://youtu.be/-mNthNPARyk (2017 4c Prison – Brainstorm MTG)
https://youtu.be/bS-HthefJNc (2017 WR-Prison-Control – Brainstorm MTG)
https://youtu.be/NCT4Y1c6CKE (2017 WR-Prison-Control – Brainstorm MTG)
https://youtu.be/NQ66fE2rAto (2017 WR-Prison-Control – Brainstorm MTG)
https://youtu.be/a_k3EcIiHoQ (2017 WR-Prison-Control – Brainstorm MTG)
https://youtu.be/EFfJe93q_a4 (2017 WR-Prison-Control – Brainstorm MTG)


I’m not going to spam “Lands”, "Creature stompy", "Enchantress Prison" in this threat… Since most people over here want to see chalices and spheres. However… I would like to notice a video that a lot people might have missed. It’s a sweet NiC Fit Enchantment build that is actually less known then most builds you find online. It was piloted by a British player called “Henry Kay” … and he makes people cry… A LOT.

He puts in soft locks, and ramps with "Veteran Explorer" and in the sideboard "Carpet of Flowers"... then he evolves into locking people out by a number of 1 off lock pieces with great synergy. Like "Living Plane" + "Doomwake Giant" OR "Parallax Wave" + "Starfield of Nyx" ... annyway, it gets pretty wacky, and he attacks diffrent strategies. Most of his lock pieces are tutorable with 3x Sterling Grove, and he gets card advantage by casting the 3x Eidolon of Blossoms and recurring enchantments with "Starfield".

https://youtu.be/MUN9_jkguxU (2017 Nyx Fit - Britisch Magic Time)
https://youtu.be/CUMJcJvdsMk (2017 Nyx Fit - British Magic Time)

I'm open for the discussion if Enchantress is actually a combo deck... but a lot of decks have to have a combination of cards to work. Fact is that "Enchantress" and "Mogg Catcher" are both trying to put soft locks in in the beginning. And in the end they combo off (just like metalworker + staff of domination). But some of the grindy Enchantress decks. just put you in spot where nothing you do matters... and then they kill you wth some fliers after you are done playing. That's "prison" for me. They have some control elements like "Pernicious deed" ... but not being able to do annything afterwards is pretty cruel. LOL

Also ... thanks a lot for all the streamers out there ... I love the content.

[kingtk3]

Wow, thank you for the extended feedback!

It's very nice to see a full lock deck in contrast to soft lock (which i play a lot), but I have to notice that many of the video in your link are defeats of the Staxx player, making me question about the actual strength of the deck and if its results are lucky spikes: if you suffer so much vial and cheap creature Legacy is a tough spot to be in... sadly...

[Fred_Bear]

Wow, thank you for the extended feedback!

It's very nice to see a full lock deck in contrast to soft lock (which i play a lot), but I have to notice that many of the video in your link are defeats of the Staxx player, making me question about the actual strength of the deck and if its results are lucky spikes: if you suffer so much vial and cheap creature Legacy is a tough spot to be in... sadly...

I haven't watched all the streams, so you'll have to forgive me if I misunderstand, but a Stax player has to know what their plan is for their particular opponent. That's not a knock against any of the streamers, of course, but I believe that's been one of the issues with particular builds. One of the real advances in the deck, in my opinion, is being able to be more aggressive in setting up your lock as opposed to playing a more reactive game (which I have always felt mono-brown is poor at). The newest build combines several features to really open up a lot more lines of play. You are still weak to a couple of strategies, but there are more tools to fight them. Is it perfect? Probably not, but it's in a better spot than it was.

[Balanced]

I tweaked Mr. Coyle's list to fit my playstyle and I've been having moderate success with it. I started my legacy career with MUD (wurmcoils, forgemasters, blightsteels, etc.) long ago before switching to other decks (DnT, Miracles, Infect), and this mono brown pile of cards has felt much more consistent and powerful than my experience with big creature MUD ever did. Here's my current list:

Creatures (3):
3 Metalworker

Spells (31):
1 Staff of Domination
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
3 Tangle Wire
3 Sorcerous Spyglass
4 Smokestack
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Mox Diamond

Lands (26):
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Buried Ruin
4 Inventor's Fair
4 Wasteland
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Darksteel Citadel
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Gemstone Caverns

Sideboard:
2 Walking Ballista
1 Metalworker
2 Lodestone Golem
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Thorn of Amythest
1 Staff of Domination
1 Tangle Wire


I consider the Gemstone Caverns in the main deck and the 4th Tangle Wire in the sideboard to be flex slots. Everything else has been outperforming and I'm still currently happy with those two choices regardless of them not being shining stars like everything else.

Spyglass is excellent at shutting down Deathrite and Wasteland, which are the two most common ways I lose with the deck, as well as other pesky permanents such as Jace and his -12. After establishing the lock and my mana base I'm happy to eat my own Spyglass with Smokestack if I named wasteland to turn the mana denial back on with my own wastelands. Picking off fetches has won me games, but I usually lean to naming cards I know may be a problem down the line (Deathrite, Deathrite, Deathrite) and hitting fetches with second copies of Spyglass or naming them when my opponent has no other relevant targets rather than take the gamble that they wont draw more land topdeck (it seems like 2 out of 3 times they topdeck into perfect mana bases, but you do occasionally get them). The information is really relevant turn 1 as well, setting up the correct lock pieces / FoW bait the following turns.

I originally tried Coyle's list verbatim, and found that the Serum Powders weren't nearly as helpful with mulligans as I needed them to be (they either didn't show up or made the hand less powerful themselves) and were terrible top decks when I needed lock pieces. Similarly with Rishadan Port, I found my own deck to be mana hungry in the early turns, and prefer wasteland/ghost quarter for finishing the lock in the later turns. Removing the Serum Powders I found that the deck wants 26 lands to consistently see good hands, and in the rare case Tabernacle is dead for a match (it usually outperforms) it still pitches to Mox Diamond. Darksteels keep the artifact/non-artifact ratio at 3-2 for Metalworker shenanigans and provide some light shielding against enemy wastelands.

Lodestone generally comes in when Bridges go out (mostly against noncreature combo), and finishes the game quickly before they find their Hurkyl's Recall or what have you. I miss the Sphere of Resistance's a little (Aluren and Food Chain), but am happier with Thorn in all other matches, as Thorn into Metalworker or Lodestone is often gg.

The 4th Metalworker comes in when the 2nd staff or Ballista's do. He is broken with either, and I like the 2-2 split because Ballista can be powerful on its own.

I have felt strong against delver (BUG has the most game against this list, but I think the match is at worst 50-50), DnT, Elves, Aluren, Reanimator (when they don't turn 1 Grisel/Sire), SnS, Storm and similar lists, and any Dark Depths / Lands variants. Miracles feels 50-50, and so does Food Chain.

Czech Pile feels bad. Blade decks feel slightly unfavorable. If a deck has consistent answers to artifacts while spitting out utility creatures with P/T <= 3 things are at their hardest I think.

Every once in a while the deck loses to itself with mulligans, or an opponent's 1 of wasteland, but then again I think every non-blue deck can maybe only slightly less often than this does. You pay a price for not having cantrips. There is an equal or greater amount of times where the deck has a busted opening and the lock is established immediately, regardless of the opposing deck. Not a terrible trade.

I've been having a blast building and playing this, this has been the best hard prison has ever felt to me. Thanks everyone for introducing the core pieces and sharing your experiences.

[kingtk3]

I've been goldfishing with Coyle's list too (sadly not being able to attend some IRL tournament yet) and I'm dubious about Serum powder too: I know this kind of deck is very dependant on the starting hand, and in theory Serum Powder should help with this issue, but it also is a do-nothing-card (since it costs 3 and our biggest CC is 4 it's not even ramp because a single land would do the same).

Do someone have experience with the card?

Thanks

[Fred_Bear]

I tweaked Mr. Coyle's list to fit my playstyle and I've been having moderate success with it. I started my legacy career with MUD (wurmcoils, forgemasters, blightsteels, etc.) long ago before switching to other decks (DnT, Miracles, Infect), and this mono brown pile of cards has felt much more consistent and powerful than my experience with big creature MUD ever did. Here's my current list:

Creatures (3):
3 Metalworker

Spells (31):
1 Staff of Domination
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
3 Tangle Wire
3 Sorcerous Spyglass
4 Smokestack
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Mox Diamond

Lands (26):
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Buried Ruin
4 Inventor's Fair
4 Wasteland
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Darksteel Citadel
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Gemstone Caverns

Sideboard:
2 Walking Ballista
1 Metalworker
2 Lodestone Golem
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Thorn of Amythest
1 Staff of Domination
1 Tangle Wire


I consider the Gemstone Caverns in the main deck and the 4th Tangle Wire in the sideboard to be flex slots. Everything else has been outperforming and I'm still currently happy with those two choices regardless of them not being shining stars like everything else.


I know you mention that some of this is 'play style', but are you sure it's not 'meta' dependent? You have several slots that I wouldn't necessarily agree with unless you have a fairly defined meta. Things like Darksteel Citadel, Ghost Quarter, and main-deck Tabernacle are questionable unless you have some additional information as they can severely under-perform in some match-ups. All are good choices in a given environment, but become potentially more debatable in a large-tournament environment.



I've been goldfishing with Coyle's list too (sadly not being able to attend some IRL tournament yet) and I'm dubious about Serum powder too: I know this kind of deck is very dependant on the starting hand, and in theory Serum Powder should help with this issue, but it also is a do-nothing-card (since it costs 3 and our biggest CC is 4 it's not even ramp because a single land would do the same).

Do someone have experience with the card?

Thanks

I've been playing Brown and White Stax in legacy for over 10 years. Serum Powder isn't really one of the slots I'd play with in Coyle's build. At worst, it is a 3-CMC mana rock that sacrifices to Smokestack. At best, it allows you to mulligan a slow 6-card hand into 7-cards of gas.

This deck is set up to go more aggressively for the hard lock and Serum Powder feeds into that. Stax needs the unfair opening to get started and Serum Powder allows you to try and do that more. There are lots of 'fair' hands that you just can't keep with Stax because they are too slow in a competitive environment.

[Balanced]

I know you mention that some of this is 'play style', but are you sure it's not 'meta' dependent? You have several slots that I wouldn't necessarily agree with unless you have a fairly defined meta. Things like Darksteel Citadel, Ghost Quarter, and main-deck Tabernacle are questionable unless you have some additional information as they can severely under-perform in some match-ups. All are good choices in a given environment, but become potentially more debatable in a large-tournament environment.




I've been playing Brown and White Stax in legacy for over 10 years. Serum Powder isn't really one of the slots I'd play with in Coyle's build. At worst, it is a 3-CMC mana rock that sacrifices to Smokestack. At best, it allows you to mulligan a slow 6-card hand into 7-cards of gas.

This deck is set up to go more aggressively for the hard lock and Serum Powder feeds into that. Stax needs the unfair opening to get started and Serum Powder allows you to try and do that more. There are lots of 'fair' hands that you just can't keep with Stax because they are too slow in a competitive environment.


Of the cards you listed I have trouble thinking of metas where those cards under perform, especially Tabernacle. If you are not in a meta with aggro creature decks I would consider that outside of the norm, and Tabernacle still does work rarely against big creature decks, and as I said pitches to Diamond. I personally will not be removing it from the MD anytime soon in any meta, unless I know everyone in the room is on Dark Depths or ANT storm (Tabernacle is still perfectly fine against TES btw). Ghost Quarter can occasionally be dead but is not against Czech Pile or Delver, two of the boogie men of the format that I think are played rather consistently, and can pick off those 1-2 pesky basics in lists than run them, as well as be your alternative mana denial plan with starts where you need Spyglass on Wasteland to protect your own mana base. Darksteel is artifacts 25-26 when you lose powder from the list, I can agree that my wasteland protection argument is weak (though not irrelevant), however I couldn't find a better artifact land for the slot.

I think perhaps my most debatable inclusion after I thought about it for a while when changing the list was the 3 maindeck Spyglass. Honestly other than Omnitell and Burn filled metas I am convinced they deserve the slot as I've been playing games, the (overall, i.e. mtgtop8) meta is ripe with targets.

I found myself with less keepable hands with the Powders. They made the hands bad themselves imo by being present in my opening 7, 6, what have you, and I still stand by them being terrible top decks. I am happy to have Smokestack eat my redundant Trinispheres or Chalices etc, which actually help support my lock mechanisms themselves, or my lands if I have a Metalworker in play. 26 lands vs. 24 has given me more consistent broken Mox Diamond openers, and made me feel perfectly okay without a 3 cost mana rock (especially when a significant amount of game losses can come down to getting stuck on 2 mana, in which case I can't cast the mana rock anyway). That's been my experience. I'm not saying I know the Powders are bad, I just don't like them and I experienced them making the deck weaker and less consistent in my games personally. As a final remark I am against the amount of information it gives my opponent, in terms of my card choices and what lock pieces / combo pieces have been removed before the game begins.

My strategy with this deck has been hope for the amazing turn one play, and count on and/or setup the amazing turn two play. Of course I would love to start every game with Chalice or Trinisphere turn 1, but that is not how the deck consistently performs with or without powders (I think the ratio is about 50-50 in terms of turn 1 to turn 2 "hard" lock piece starts imo with my list tweaks, I'd be curious to find out how much higher that ratio is with powders). So I decided to tweak the list with that in mind, leaning on more consistent and protected turn 2's while enjoying when the deck gives me great turn 1s.

I play at several different shops, and this configuration has been working for me. Take that for what it's worth I suppose. I am still happy to see other variants and ideas and how they perform. I'll keep your criticism in mind and try and watch how the list performs in different player environments with a close eye.

[Fred_Bear]

Of the cards you listed I have trouble thinking of metas where those cards under perform, especially Tabernacle. If you are not in a meta with aggro creature decks I would consider that outside of the norm, and Tabernacle still does work rarely against big creature decks, and as I said pitches to Diamond. I personally will not be removing it from the MD anytime soon in any meta, unless I know everyone in the room is on Dark Depths or ANT storm (Tabernacle is still perfectly fine against TES btw). Ghost Quarter can occasionally be dead but is not against Czech Pile or Delver, two of the boogie men of the format that I think are played rather consistently, and can pick off those 1-2 pesky basics in lists than run them, as well as be your alternative mana denial plan with starts where you need Spyglass on Wasteland to protect your own mana base. Darksteel is artifacts 25-26 when you lose powder from the list, I can agree that my wasteland protection argument is weak (though not irrelevant), however I couldn't find a better artifact land for the slot.

I think perhaps my most debatable inclusion after I thought about it for a while when changing the list was the 3 maindeck Spyglass. Honestly other than Omnitell and Burn filled metas I am convinced they deserve the slot as I've been playing games, the (overall, i.e. mtgtop8) meta is ripe with targets.

I found myself with less keepable hands with the Powders. They made the hands bad themselves imo by being present in my opening 7, 6, what have you, and I still stand by them being terrible top decks. I am happy to have Smokestack eat my redundant Trinispheres or Chalices etc, which actually help support my lock mechanisms themselves, or my lands if I have a Metalworker in play. 26 lands vs. 24 has given me more consistent broken Mox Diamond openers, and made me feel perfectly okay without a 3 cost mana rock (especially when a significant amount of game losses can come down to getting stuck on 2 mana, in which case I can't cast the mana rock anyway). That's been my experience. I'm not saying I know the Powders are bad, I just don't like them and I experienced them making the deck weaker and less consistent in my games personally. As a final remark I am against the amount of information it gives my opponent, in terms of my card choices and what lock pieces / combo pieces have been removed before the game begins.

My strategy with this deck has been hope for the amazing turn one play, and count on and/or setup the amazing turn two play. Of course I would love to start every game with Chalice or Trinisphere turn 1, but that is not how the deck consistently performs with or without powders (I think the ratio is about 50-50 in terms of turn 1 to turn 2 "hard" lock piece starts imo with my list tweaks, I'd be curious to find out how much higher that ratio is with powders). So I decided to tweak the list with that in mind, leaning on more consistent and protected turn 2's while enjoying when the deck gives me great turn 1s.

I play at several different shops, and this configuration has been working for me. Take that for what it's worth I suppose. I am still happy to see other variants and ideas and how they perform. I'll keep your criticism in mind and try and watch how the list performs in different player environments with a close eye.


I play solely online and, with the Coyle list, there are very few times where I am boarding in Tabernacle (I do still think it belongs in the 75 for flexibility). I can't see a reason to play Darksteel Citadel and Gemstone Caverns is so situational that I personally wouldn't waste a slot. I don't mean to sound too harsh because, ultimately, if they work for you and you are happy, that's fine. I simply find Rishadan Port has greater utility in more match-ups than any of those lands.

On paper, Ghost Quarter should be a good card in the format, but, in my opinion, Wasteland is one of the weakest lands in Coyle's build. Mana denial in the form of one-for-one land destruction is a very narrow line in the current format and really requires heavy support (i.e. Crucible) in order for it to win games. Yes, there are decks and hands that Turn 1 Wasteland will completely ruin. There are also a lot of spots where (without support) it can hurt you worse than your opponent (looking at DRS). There are more times, in my experience, where tapping the Wasteland for mana wins the game (eventually, of course). Ghost Quarter just seems out of place unless you are pushing this specific line in an established environment.

Again, I wouldn't call any of those differences 'wrong', but neither would I call them 'obvious improvements'. If they work for you, great! I'm not sure they would work for me.

The only other differences I see is your increase in Spyglass and Tangle Wire. Personally, I hate Tangle Wire in Legacy (I've posted about this multiple times). I hate it even more in the current format. Pyromancer, Mentor, and DRS decks all have ways to continue to develop through a Tangle Wire while we can struggle except for a few, very specific board states. Can it 'buy time'? Sure, I guess. I still don't like to see it in my opening hand and I am always looking for a better use of those spots. I do like upping the Spyglass count, but I haven't settled on the what the right number is - 2 or 3. I like that you can play it 'blind' on turn 1 and still hit something. It's also nice to not be so reliant on the 3cmc slot as a starting point.

In your evaluation of the Serum Powders, how often do you mulligan without them?

[Balanced]

I play solely online and, with the Coyle list, there are very few times where I am boarding in Tabernacle (I do still think it belongs in the 75 for flexibility). I can't see a reason to play Darksteel Citadel and Gemstone Caverns is so situational that I personally wouldn't waste a slot. I don't mean to sound too harsh because, ultimately, if they work for you and you are happy, that's fine. I simply find Rishadan Port has greater utility in more match-ups than any of those lands.

On paper, Ghost Quarter should be a good card in the format, but, in my opinion, Wasteland is one of the weakest lands in Coyle's build. Mana denial in the form of one-for-one land destruction is a very narrow line in the current format and really requires heavy support (i.e. Crucible) in order for it to win games. Yes, there are decks and hands that Turn 1 Wasteland will completely ruin. There are also a lot of spots where (without support) it can hurt you worse than your opponent (looking at DRS). There are more times, in my experience, where tapping the Wasteland for mana wins the game (eventually, of course). Ghost Quarter just seems out of place unless you are pushing this specific line in an established environment.

Again, I wouldn't call any of those differences 'wrong', but neither would I call them 'obvious improvements'. If they work for you, great! I'm not sure they would work for me.

The only other differences I see is your increase in Spyglass and Tangle Wire. Personally, I hate Tangle Wire in Legacy (I've posted about this multiple times). I hate it even more in the current format. Pyromancer, Mentor, and DRS decks all have ways to continue to develop through a Tangle Wire while we can struggle except for a few, very specific board states. Can it 'buy time'? Sure, I guess. I still don't like to see it in my opening hand and I am always looking for a better use of those spots. I do like upping the Spyglass count, but I haven't settled on the what the right number is - 2 or 3. I like that you can play it 'blind' on turn 1 and still hit something. It's also nice to not be so reliant on the 3cmc slot as a starting point.

In your evaluation of the Serum Powders, how often do you mulligan without them?

I agree that my choice in lands are not "obvious improvements". In fact I think the two darksteel and gemstone are the weakest lands, but I haven't found better replacements. I would love excess copies of Buried Ruin or Inventor's Fair, hopefully they'll print something similar soon. I don't favor Port with this deck, and I prefer 26 lands while keeping a 36-24 ratio of artifacts to non-artifacts, so those were the best I could find currently. I've been considering Gemstone as Mox number 5 on the draw, but I would rather have a more useful utility land if I could find one, and don't feel that I need Quarter number 7 (though perhaps with my list that would be correct, or perhaps a Karakas? I'm not sure if this deck needs that effect either).

I do lean heavily to crucible lock. I win quite frequently that way, I very rarely use for-value wastelands (spyglass openers sometimes give me the information to take those lines). It also meshes with tabernacle, in that the pesky creatures end up going along with the lands. I can appreciate if the crucible line is not your usual bread and butter. The upped Tangle Wire count is sort of my Port replacement in certain matches, and sort of my weaker Bridges 5-7 others. I'm happy with the 3 maindeck copies, though I often side them out (usually against Deathrite decks as you've mentioned and non-creature combo since they only often need one land anyway), and I'm lukewarm on my 4th copy in the sideboard. I'd really prefer it to be a 5th bridge if that were possible.

For the Powders, I tried Coyle's exact land count without them, and mulliganed far too often due to dead diamonds in hand. Upping to 26 lands I mulligan very little imo, maybe 1 out 3-5 hands, and tend to be happy with my 6 afterwards when I do. I don't go below 25 lands after sideboard in this same vein of thought (removing the Tabernacle).

[Fred_Bear]

I agree that my choice in lands are not "obvious improvements". In fact I think the two darksteel and gemstone are the weakest lands, but I haven't found better replacements. I would love excess copies of Buried Ruin or Inventor's Fair, hopefully they'll print something similar soon. I don't favor Port with this deck, and I prefer 26 lands while keeping a 36-24 ratio of artifacts to non-artifacts, so those were the best I could find currently. I've been considering Gemstone as Mox number 5 on the draw, but I would rather have a more useful utility land if I could find one, and don't feel that I need Quarter number 7 (though perhaps with my list that would be correct, or perhaps a Karakas? I'm not sure if this deck needs that effect either).

I do lean heavily to crucible lock. I win quite frequently that way, I very rarely use for-value wastelands (spyglass openers sometimes give me the information to take those lines). It also meshes with tabernacle, in that the pesky creatures end up going along with the lands. I can appreciate if the crucible line is not your usual bread and butter. The upped Tangle Wire count is sort of my Port replacement in certain matches, and sort of my weaker Bridges 5-7 others. I'm happy with the 3 maindeck copies, though I often side them out (usually against Deathrite decks as you've mentioned and non-creature combo since they only often need one land anyway), and I'm lukewarm on my 4th copy in the sideboard. I'd really prefer it to be a 5th bridge if that were possible.

For the Powders, I tried Coyle's exact land count without them, and mulliganed far too often due to dead diamonds in hand. Upping to 26 lands I mulligan very little imo, maybe 1 out 3-5 hands, and tend to be happy with my 6 afterwards when I do. I don't go below 25 lands after sideboard in this same vein of thought (removing the Tabernacle).


Petrified Field may be a good option if you want more copies of Buried Ruin or Inventors' Fair. As a 1- or 2-of, it could have some utility beyond what you get with Darksteel and, imo, it's a definite upgrade over Caverns. While I can see your point on Caverns as an additional Mox on the draw, but it's a long shot (if you 'draw' 50%, and get Caverns ~10% of the time, you're talking about an effect you might get 1-in-20 games, on average - once in a GP event including Top 8). I prefer 25 lands and consider your list to be 25 (Tabernacle is really a spell when you don't play Urborg). Horizon Canopy is another consideration. A land that basically cycles is always a good option.

When I go the Land Destruction route, I prefer to play Armageddon Stax. Magnus of the Tabernacle plus Armageddon can clear a board pretty quickly. As I said, with the DRS-driven meta we have today, Wasteland isn't nearly as effective as it once was. You can still get and win with a Wastelock, it just isn't a reliable set-up. Have you considered Forcefield as an 'additional' Bridge. There are probably a couple of other options that I've tried through the years, just can't think of them off the top of my head. I'll look through notes later tonight.

How often are you mulliganing due to hand quality - not just mana issues? 25 lands is about right for land/mox mulligans.

Question to you and the Group - What do you do with this hand on the draw? Does your answer change on the play?

Inventors' Fair, Buried Ruin, Wasteland, Trinisphere, Ensnaring Bridge, Crucible of Worlds, Smokestack.

[Balanced]

Petrified Field may be a good option if you want more copies of Buried Ruin or Inventors' Fair. As a 1- or 2-of, it could have some utility beyond what you get with Darksteel and, imo, it's a definite upgrade over Caverns. While I can see your point on Caverns as an additional Mox on the draw, but it's a long shot (if you 'draw' 50%, and get Caverns ~10% of the time, you're talking about an effect you might get 1-in-20 games, on average - once in a GP event including Top 8). I prefer 25 lands and consider your list to be 25 (Tabernacle is really a spell when you don't play Urborg). Horizon Canopy is another consideration. A land that basically cycles is always a good option.

When I go the Land Destruction route, I prefer to play Armageddon Stax. Magnus of the Tabernacle plus Armageddon can clear a board pretty quickly. As I said, with the DRS-driven meta we have today, Wasteland isn't nearly as effective as it once was. You can still get and win with a Wastelock, it just isn't a reliable set-up. Have you considered Forcefield as an 'additional' Bridge. There are probably a couple of other options that I've tried through the years, just can't think of them off the top of my head. I'll look through notes later tonight.

How often are you mulliganing due to hand quality - not just mana issues? 25 lands is about right for land/mox mulligans.

Question to you and the Group - What do you do with this hand on the draw? Does your answer change on the play?

Inventors' Fair, Buried Ruin, Wasteland, Trinisphere, Ensnaring Bridge, Crucible of Worlds, Smokestack.


Gemstone is actually even less likely to be used than that 5% too, because when it's in a hand with mox diamonds I am probably going to prefer to have a diamond on the field and pitch the land, rather than remove a card to have the extra land drop. I'm going to take it out, I'll consider Petrified Field. I'm thinking maybe a third darksteel too for testing, I've enjoyed the earlier inventor's fair triggers and more reliable Metalworker shenanigans.

My preference toward the 3 MB Spyglass and the 4th in the board is my answer to the Deathrite problem in regards to Crucible. Perhaps they'll ban the little guy some day and solve the problem completely, but this has been working for me.

I'll also consider Forcefield. I'm not excited about the mana sink aspect, or that I can't go hellbent against 1 power, but it's worth considering.

Hand quality and your follow up question are related I think. I think I've been keeping some hands that are too slow in certain matches where I really only need one quality lock piece quickly and shouldve mulled (although I had a Belcher player pick off one game on me through a Trinisphere on the field that he never removed, felt bad), I'm going to work on that. Poor quality hands are usually all metalworker or triple Stax without appropriate acceleration or something similar. I think those are probably 1 out of 4 mulligans or so, usually mulligans are due to not enough land / acceleration or flooding.

So far that example hand is about the slowest quality hand I have kept in matchups. My experience when keeping that hand is that it will often create a grindy game where my opponent often ends up one turn ahead of me when playing against Delver / Control (such as losing my last point of life before being able to staff combo the following turn), and that it is probably an immediate loss against combo. Wasteland lock decks could also be a problem if they get online before crucible. There have been exceptions where I have top decked the tomb or diamond off the top immediately and then that hand becomes nuts, but with less than 25% odds of that happening it isn't the norm.

I wouldn't keep it draw or play unless I had specific knowledge about my opponent that encouraged me to (such as if I expected the card disadvantage to kill me in the match, in which case I probably still mull on the draw). I don't see much difference between the two, as in both cases I'm hoping for mana acceleration off the next draw to make the hand work on tempo. I'm leaning towards only keeping hands without sol lands or diamonds if they have a chalice or spyglass (or ratchet bomb etc after sideboard).

[beardstorm]

Hello friends.
Me and a couple of friends designed this piece of art for shits and giggles and played it at two local events before realising it's trash. [emoji23]
Both events yielded 1-3 results, but it was nice to see the look on people's faces when they realised they were losing to Sundial of the Infinite.

We called it "Winless Stax".

Artifact (23)
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Trinisphere
4 Smokestack
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Sundial of the Infinite

Enchantment (7)
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Humility

Sorcery (3)
3 Armageddon

Land (27)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
3 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Buried Ruin
1 Inventors' Fair
1 Karakas
1 Mistveil Plains
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
5 Plains

Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Banishing Light
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Sun Droplet
1 Caltrops
1 Jester's Cap
1 Uba Mask
1 Orbs of Warding

[Balanced]

Question to you and the Group - What do you do with this hand on the draw? Does your answer change on the play?

Inventors' Fair, Buried Ruin, Wasteland, Trinisphere, Ensnaring Bridge, Crucible of Worlds, Smokestack.

I've been testing more and have gone back to Ports in the list due to this type of hand, where I think one Port instead of any one of these example lands can make the hand keepable in many matchups. I still prefer Ghost Quarters in the late game, but I think it's more important to be able to keep hands and have a turn 2 play, even if it is only to tap one of their lands. With my list 3 Ports give the deck seven 2 cmc plays, plus an additional 3 "pseudo" cmc 2 plays with the Ports. Here's my newest iteration of the list:

MD:
4 - Metalworker
4 - Trinisphere
4 - Chalice of the Void
4 - Smokestack
4 - Crucible of Worlds
4 - Ensnaring Bridge
4 - Mox Diamond
3 - Sorcerous Spyglass
3 - Tangle Wire
1 - Staff of Domination

4 - Inventor's Fair
4 - Wasteland
4 - Buried Ruin
4 - Ancient Tomb
4 - City of Traitors
3 - Rishadan Port
2 - Darksteel Citadel

SB:
2 - Lodestone Golem
2 - Thorm of Amythest
3 - Ratchet Bomb
1 - Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 - Tormod's Crypt
1 - Walking Ballista
2 - Staff of Domination
1 - Sorcerous Spyglass

Spyglass has still been MVP against the field. I've gone back to Tabernacle in the side, it has felt lackluster in repeat matches I've faced like Miracles and Czech, which I think are tough for this list to beat (I still think it's okay in the MD in the current meta overall and miss it against Delver, but wanted room for other pieces). The 2 of Darksteel Citadel has been surprisingly good for me, it works with the 3 MD Spyglass to help ensure against losses to opponent's wastelands (Mox + Darksteel on board feels pretty strong against the wasteland field), enables earlier life gain with Inventor's Fair, and keeps the artifact count high in the deck to help with Metalworker. I also got to keep one on the field after an opponent's From the Ashes which was nice.

I'm not totally clear on how to board against Delver anymore. The Tangle Wires obviously come out, but I want to bring in all 3 Ratchet Bombs, the Tabernacle, and maybe the 4th Spyglass, which leaves me with another 1-2 cards to have to take out that I am unsure of. I also saw that Coyle boarded in the Ballista in his Delver matches in one of the previously posted videos, which would be a sixth card, but I don't know how I feel about that card against delver.

[Fred_Bear]

I've been testing more and have gone back to Ports in the list due to this type of hand, where I think one Port instead of any one of these example lands can make the hand keepable in many matchups. I still prefer Ghost Quarters in the late game, but I think it's more important to be able to keep hands and have a turn 2 play, even if it is only to tap one of their lands. With my list 3 Ports give the deck seven 2 cmc plays, plus an additional 3 "pseudo" cmc 2 plays with the Ports. Here's my newest iteration of the list:

MD:
4 - Metalworker
4 - Trinisphere
4 - Chalice of the Void
4 - Smokestack
4 - Crucible of Worlds
4 - Ensnaring Bridge
4 - Mox Diamond
3 - Sorcerous Spyglass
3 - Tangle Wire
1 - Staff of Domination

4 - Inventor's Fair
4 - Wasteland
4 - Buried Ruin
4 - Ancient Tomb
4 - City of Traitors
3 - Rishadan Port
2 - Darksteel Citadel

SB:
2 - Lodestone Golem
2 - Thorm of Amythest
3 - Ratchet Bomb
1 - Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 - Tormod's Crypt
1 - Walking Ballista
2 - Staff of Domination
1 - Sorcerous Spyglass

Spyglass has still been MVP against the field. I've gone back to Tabernacle in the side, it has felt lackluster in repeat matches I've faced like Miracles and Czech, which I think are tough for this list to beat (I still think it's okay in the MD in the current meta overall and miss it against Delver, but wanted room for other pieces). The 2 of Darksteel Citadel has been surprisingly good for me, it works with the 3 MD Spyglass to help ensure against losses to opponent's wastelands (Mox + Darksteel on board feels pretty strong against the wasteland field), enables earlier life gain with Inventor's Fair, and keeps the artifact count high in the deck to help with Metalworker. I also got to keep one on the field after an opponent's From the Ashes which was nice.

I'm not totally clear on how to board against Delver anymore. The Tangle Wires obviously come out, but I want to bring in all 3 Ratchet Bombs, the Tabernacle, and maybe the 4th Spyglass, which leaves me with another 1-2 cards to have to take out that I am unsure of. I also saw that Coyle boarded in the Ballista in his Delver matches in one of the previously posted videos, which would be a sixth card, but I don't know how I feel about that card against delver.

Overall, I like the list. I'm not as convinced about Spyglass maindeck, yet, and think the Wasteland argument might warrant a different deck in that environment... If it's a good idea to run 3 slots to turn 4 of our lands in basic Wastes, I think something is wrong. I tend to agree that the deck will sometimes just lose to a properly timed Wasteland, but I'm not sure we need that much protection against it. The hope, obviously, is to be able to use ours to an advantage. Not sure how much stock I put in the From the Ashes argument (not commonly played based on MTGGoldfish data), but Darksteel Citadel isn't horrible and there are likely a couple of flex slots in the mana base.

Against Delver, your fear post-board is Surgical Extraction. That's what Walking Ballista is there to protect you from. Several lists play up to 3x SE and if your Metalworker gets countered and Extracted, you're done without Ballista. Have you tried something like

+ 3 Ratched Bomb
+ 1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
+ 1 Sorcerous Spyglass
+ 1 Walking Ballista

- 3 Tangle Wire
- 1 Metalworker
- 2 Smokestack

I think you want to use Spyglass to lock their mana and try to get to Chalice on 1 and 2 as quickly as possible (that's the dream at least). Trinisphere and Bridge are also key. Personally, I tend to play my Metalworkers more conservatively post-board and would try to get a lock in place before running one out. It also helps to protect them from Daze, Surgical Extraction which is going to stop me from comboing later. Smokestack is very slow and Ratchet Bomb is there to help out anyways. Just an idea (I can't remember how Coyle sideboarded either).

[Balanced]

Against Delver, your fear post-board is Surgical Extraction. That's what Walking Ballista is there to protect you from. Several lists play up to 3x SE and if your Metalworker gets countered and Extracted, you're done without Ballista. Have you tried something like

+ 3 Ratched Bomb
+ 1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
+ 1 Sorcerous Spyglass
+ 1 Walking Ballista

- 3 Tangle Wire
- 1 Metalworker
- 2 Smokestack

I think you want to use Spyglass to lock their mana and try to get to Chalice on 1 and 2 as quickly as possible (that's the dream at least). Trinisphere and Bridge are also key. Personally, I tend to play my Metalworkers more conservatively post-board and would try to get a lock in place before running one out. It also helps to protect them from Daze, Surgical Extraction which is going to stop me from comboing later. Smokestack is very slow and Ratchet Bomb is there to help out anyways. Just an idea (I can't remember how Coyle sideboarded either).

This all sounds right, thank you for the suggestions.

[ntropy]

I agree that my choice in lands are not "obvious improvements". In fact I think the two darksteel and gemstone are the weakest lands, but I haven't found better replacements. I would love excess copies of Buried Ruin or Inventor's Fair, hopefully they'll print something similar soon. I don't favor Port with this deck, and I prefer 26 lands while keeping a 36-24 ratio of artifacts to non-artifacts, so those were the best I could find currently. I've been considering Gemstone as Mox number 5 on the draw, but I would rather have a more useful utility land if I could find one, and don't feel that I need Quarter number 7 (though perhaps with my list that would be correct, or perhaps a Karakas? I'm not sure if this deck needs that effect either).


Just some ideas - Mishra's Factory could be occasionally useful, Crystal Vein could accelerate out a lock piece, and Petrified field can re-buy a wasteland, Buried Ruin, or Inventor's fair. (as someone already mentioned)

Also, Hi everyone, I used to play some Armageddon Stax, and I'm thinking of building my way back into some variety, so I'm lurking around. What are Stax's toughest match-ups currently?

[Dice_Box]

I have always found it to be Delver. A deck that can land early pressure and answer things you cast to answer it. Because a lot of our answers take time to set up, a 3/2 with Flying can be a royal pain. The other one I hate seeing is Lands. You need to get a Chalice on 2 ASAP or your not in that game.

[Barachai]

Also, Hi everyone, I used to play some Armageddon Stax, and I'm thinking of building my way back into some variety, so I'm lurking around. What are Stax's toughest match-ups currently?

In the metalworker version (can't speak for the other versions) I find Nic-Fit to be unwinable, Jund/Aggro Loam is also generally very difficult to win. Elves can be a pain if you're not prepared. Dragon Stompy is a hard matchup as well; Fiery Confluence is obviously insane vs Stax, and while spyglass helps a lot we don't usually put a lot of pressure on planeswalkers.

The inclusion of Bridge makes lands significantly better than it used to be (bridge in general is pretty good right now), though you're pretty reliant on Mox Diamond and crucible to not get wasted out of the game. Delver gets a lot better if you have Ballistae/Bombs/Tabernacle. Also the Worker/Staff combo behind a trinisphere can steal a good number of games thanks to the 4x Inventors' Fair finding it.

Fair blue decks are generally good; Kommand is annoying, though there are usually too many must-kill artifacts for it to be enough.

[Balanced]

I had a 3-1 finish at my local with another iteration of the list:

4 - Metalworker
4 - Mox Diamond
4 - Crucible of Worlds
4 - Ensnaring Bridge
4 - Chalice of the Void
4 - Trinisphere
3 - Smokestack
3 - Sorcerous Spyglass
2 - Tangle Wire
2 - Staff of Domination
1 - Walking Ballista

4 - Wasteland
4 - Rishadan Port
4 - Inventor's Fair
4 - Buried Ruin
4 - Ancient Tomb
4 - City of Traitors
1 - Darksteel Citadel

SB:
3 - Ratchet Bomb
3 - Tormod's Crypt
2 - Lodestone Golem
2 - Thorn of Amythest
1 - Smokestack
1 - Staff of Domination
1 - Sorcerous Spyglass
1 - Walking Ballista
1 - Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale


Matchups were Miracles (2-1), Burn (2-0), Grixis Delver (2-0) (Fred_Bear's sb strategy worked for me), and UB Tezzerator (1-2). The list felt very good. I've added the single copy of Ballista to the main mostly as an out to hatebears after testing against DnT (g1 Prelate on 3 was unbeatable for me without it) but I also appreciate the ability to end the game on the spot without having to lose match time to explain and play out interactions to unfamiliar opponents. Taking out a thalia, young pyro, or snapcaster can be relevant too.

Tezzerator feels like a very bad matchup that I'm going to let go of, I think it might be the worst I've faced so far. The lists at my locals have maindeck Dack Faydens, and Leylines of the Void with Helm combo from the sb as well as blood moon. I think it's just too much hate in a deck that is hard to wasteland due to basics and Dimir Signets and they have FoW as an answer to quick MW combo lines, and many of our lock pieces just don't effect them.

[NickDoom]

Hello people. I build this deck. Any ideas ?

Creatures (7)

3x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Magus of the Tabernacle

Sorceries (4)

4x Armageddon

Artifacts (18)

4x Chalice of the Void
3x Crucible of Worlds
4x Mox Diamond
3x Smokestack
4x Trinisphere

Enchantments (6)

4x Ghostly Prison
2x Sylvan Library

Land (25)

4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
3x Flagstones of Trokair
1x Horizon Canopy
3x Mishra's Factory
4x Plains
2x Savannah
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3x Wasteland

Sideboard (15)

2x Disenchant
1x Maze of Ith
1x Karakas
2x Defense Grid
2x Sorcerous Spyglass
2x Grafdigger's Cage
3x Ratchet Bomb
2x Choke

[Barachai]

Hello people. I build this deck. Any ideas ?

Creatures (7)

3x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Magus of the Tabernacle

Sorceries (4)

4x Armageddon

Artifacts (18)

4x Chalice of the Void
3x Crucible of Worlds
4x Mox Diamond
3x Smokestack
4x Trinisphere

Enchantments (6)

4x Ghostly Prison
2x Sylvan Library

Land (25)

4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
3x Flagstones of Trokair
1x Horizon Canopy
3x Mishra's Factory
4x Plains
2x Savannah
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3x Wasteland

Sideboard (15)

2x Disenchant
1x Maze of Ith
1x Karakas
2x Defense Grid
2x Sorcerous Spyglass
2x Grafdigger's Cage
3x Ratchet Bomb
2x Choke

First thought: Knight is going to rot in hand a lot. However, some GSZ with a ramunap and maybe scooze to boot (plus friends post-board) alleviates this issue quite a bit.

[NickDoom]

First thought: Knight is going to rot in hand a lot. However, some GSZ with a ramunap and maybe scooze to boot (plus friends post-board) alleviates this issue quite a bit.

Or maybe play White Stax with Inventor's Fair and Baneslayer Angel

[Barachai]

Or maybe play White Stax with Inventor's Fair and Baneslayer Angel

Well then you're just exploring old ground; was tinkering a bit, ended up with this, seems like fun.

1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Ramunap Excavator
1 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Green sun’s Zenith
3 Armageddon
1 Sylvan Library
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Ghostly Prison

3 Smokestacks
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond

1 Dryad Arbor
3 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
1 Forest
3 Plains
1 Karakas
2 Flagstones of trokair
1 Horizon Canopy
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb

SB
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Maze of ith
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Crop Rotation
2 Disenchant
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 containment Priest
1 Garruk Relentless

[Noctalor]

Im gonna copypaste from the MUD topic, the list is in fact a pure staxx:

I built a karn list, 0 tests so far because it's playing with dominaria, but it looks promising


// 60 Maindeck
// 31 Artifact
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Mox Diamond
3 Smokestack
1 Trading Post
3 Trinisphere
3 Ratchet Bomb
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
4 Crucible of Worlds
2 Meekstone
1 Bottled Cloister

// 25 Land
4 Wasteland
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Inventors' Fair
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Buried Ruin
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Dunes of the Dead
4 Rishadan Port

// 4 Planeswalker
4 Karn, Scion of Urza


// 15 Sideboard
// 12 Artifact
SB: 1 Sorcerous Spyglass
SB: 2 Caltrops
SB: 1 Cursed Totem
SB: 2 Uba Mask
SB: 2 Welding Jar
SB: 1 Meekstone
SB: 3 Silent Gravestone

// 3 Creature
SB: 3 Lodestone Golem



Not sure on those 1 drops, but i think is fine to play meekstone, i like the idea to have a cheap anti delver card, but its also true that meekstone is blank against pyromancer, i am currently testing ports over quarters, but I'm ready to switch back to them anytime.
Feel free to give any imput on the list.

[Cave]

Ciao! :wink:
Crucible + karn's +1 ability + 25 lands makes it look like you'll end up having a lot of excess lands stuck in your hand, which isn't bad per se but it can limit the effectiveness of Ensnaring Bridge, which is this deck's MVP. I think 4 crucible and 4 karn might be too much as having 2 in your starting hand is not really good. And 1 Bottled Cloister looks also weird, due to incredible sinergy with bridge.
But other than that, i get the general idea that the new Karn is gonna give artifact-based decks a decent boost.

[Noctalor]

Ciao! :wink:
Crucible + karn's +1 ability + 25 lands makes it look like you'll end up having a lot of excess lands stuck in your hand, which isn't bad per se but it can limit the effectiveness of Ensnaring Bridge, which is this deck's MVP. I think 4 crucible and 4 karn might be too much as having 2 in your starting hand is not really good. And 1 Bottled Cloister looks also weird, due to incredible sinergy with bridge.
But other than that, i get the general idea that the new Karn is gonna give artifact-based decks a decent boost.

I love Cloister, I used to play 3 and it's fair to suggest to play more of them, im just a bit afraid to get blown out by a KCommand, also, trading post is kinda effective at reducing our hand size and we can just play extra lands instead of recurring with crucible if needed.
In general having a decent hand size for delver is easy, making bridge work against 1/1s is in fact pretty hard with this configuration.
Also, id like to play extra cloisters because with Karn we could consider to run up to 8 pure CA cards, which would probably be a massive boost in terms of consistency.


Keep in ming tho that Karn is not likely to boost our hand size if we dont want to, generate tokens is good if we need board presence to stall, and if we go for a reveal 2, then for the silver token card we are likely to get only 1 extra land every 2 turns, which is not that bad.

[Alexeezay]

Expedition Map would be good in here to tutor for Tabernacle etc.
I think it can work alongside Chalice, I'm playing both in Modern UR Prison as well.

For the sideboard, I REALLY like Witchbane Orb. It stops Hurkyl's Recall from Storm and is pretty good vs Burn.

It's possible that you want 1-2 Welding Jar maindeck in this meta, just to empty your hand and protect from stuff like K Command.

[Noctalor]

Expedition Map would be good in here to tutor for Tabernacle etc.
I think it can work alongside Chalice, I'm playing both in Modern UR Prison as well.

For the sideboard, I REALLY like Witchbane Orb. It stops Hurkyl's Recall from Storm and is pretty good vs Burn.

It's possible that you want 1-2 Welding Jar maindeck in this meta, just to empty your hand and protect from stuff like K Command.

I tried to run Maps and more tool lands in the past, had little success with it, not even considering the nonbo with cotv, map just felt like skipping a turn and was useful pretty much only to fetch tebernacle, because then the back swing was good enought to recover from the time lost.

Im fine with 1x tabernable by the way, is a really good card if drawn, but not good enought to consider it a core of the strategy imho, let's say that if the meta requires it I would be happier with 2 tabernacle rather than a playset of EMaps.

The orb is pretty legit indeed, im not considering it anymore because now we got spyglass, my main concern was a jace/lili ultimatum se could not prevent, now with a playable needle and a somewhat interesting race with karn tokens i think we can avoid a leyline effect.
Also, we are likely to lose to burn anyway unless we setup a strong lock, if we get to that point, i found trading post to be good enough to keep us alive and win the game by just spamming +4 life each turn.
Also, if we want to play an orb effect Id go for Orbs of Warding because it doubles as a good way to deal with pyromancer and empty.


Welding Jar is a delicate topic, I like the idea to play a strong lock piece and then being able to protect it for free, but it's kinda hard to make room for them, I even tried to play a full set in the board, but it was pretty much impossible to board correctly because I had to board them in + board actual relevant card without boarding out our core pieces

[Fred_Bear]

Im gonna copypaste from the MUD topic, the list is in fact a pure staxx:

I built a karn list, 0 tests so far because it's playing with dominaria, but it looks promising


// 60 Maindeck
// 31 Artifact
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Mox Diamond
3 Smokestack
1 Trading Post
3 Trinisphere
3 Ratchet Bomb
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
4 Crucible of Worlds
2 Meekstone
1 Bottled Cloister

// 25 Land
4 Wasteland
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Inventors' Fair
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Buried Ruin
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Dunes of the Dead
4 Rishadan Port

// 4 Planeswalker
4 Karn, Scion of Urza


// 15 Sideboard
// 12 Artifact
SB: 1 Sorcerous Spyglass
SB: 2 Caltrops
SB: 1 Cursed Totem
SB: 2 Uba Mask
SB: 2 Welding Jar
SB: 1 Meekstone
SB: 3 Silent Gravestone

// 3 Creature
SB: 3 Lodestone Golem



Not sure on those 1 drops, but i think is fine to play meekstone, i like the idea to have a cheap anti delver card, but its also true that meekstone is blank against pyromancer, i am currently testing ports over quarters, but I'm ready to switch back to them anytime.
Feel free to give any imput on the list.

A couple of quick notes:

I'm excited to try Karn as well. Still not sure exactly how he might slot into a Stax build, but would certainly agree that he looks interesting. Card selection has long been an issue for us and he seems to help alleviate some of that.

Specific to your build, though, before I make a lot of brash statements about unplayable cards, can you explain your fringe choices? Why Meekstone? What are you trying to accomplish with your sideboard? What is your strategy against Lands/Delver/Czech Pile/DnT or other common match-ups? What do you envision as your best/worst match-up?

What does this improve from previous builds? Does it solve a problem match-up?

I'm just not sold on jamming a bunch of 'stax' cards together and calling it a deck. Looking forward to a little more explanation.

[Noctalor]

A couple of quick notes:

I'm excited to try Karn as well. Still not sure exactly how he might slot into a Stax build, but would certainly agree that he looks interesting. Card selection has long been an issue for us and he seems to help alleviate some of that.

Specific to your build, though, before I make a lot of brash statements about unplayable cards, can you explain your fringe choices? Why Meekstone? What are you trying to accomplish with your sideboard? What is your strategy against Lands/Delver/Czech Pile/DnT or other common match-ups? What do you envision as your best/worst match-up?

What does this improve from previous builds? Does it solve a problem match-up?

I'm just not sold on jamming a bunch of 'stax' cards together and calling it a deck. Looking forward to a little more explanation.

Firstly, I have updated the list quite a bit after intensive testing, this is where we are

https://i.gyazo.com/5f1598bd70b0fe6c9e2c630a6380d9a1.jpg


In my experience, delver is quite hard to deal with, despite not being that good against grixis, meekstone is super good against team america and eldrazi (small), also quite impactiful against taxes/maverik
Also, against delver you REALLY need something cheap to stop the bleeding, daze/pierce/wasteland is a nightmare if you rely too much on heavy drops


Its also kinda hard to have 8 sb slots against chalice.decks, with this configuration those MU are reasonably covered.

[caprino]

Firstly, I have updated the list quite a bit after intensive testing, this is where we are

https://i.gyazo.com/5f1598bd70b0fe6c9e2c630a6380d9a1.jpg


In my experience, delver is quite hard to deal with, despite not being that good against grixis, meekstone is super good against team america and eldrazi (small), also quite impactiful against taxes/maverik
Also, against delver you REALLY need something cheap to stop the bleeding, daze/pierce/wasteland is a nightmare if you rely too much on heavy drops


Its also kinda hard to have 8 sb slots against chalice.decks, with this configuration those MU are reasonably covered.

Null brooch very nice card.. Top!!!

Ivan search me on mtg (mtgcaprino my nick name) and I test vs you (I play big eldrazi)

[Alexeezay]

Thanks for sharing this, Noctalor.

Thoughts on 1-of Ghirapur Orrery? Works well with Wasteland/Ghost Quarter and the draw ability could really work in the decks' favor.

[Noctalor]

Thanks for sharing this, Noctalor.

Thoughts on 1-of Ghirapur Orrery? Works well with Wasteland/Ghost Quarter and the draw ability could really work in the decks' favor.

I played Orrery and i like the card quite a lot, in theory, exploration is all we need to lock the game completely.

Still, in this list im trying not to play as many heavy drops, the only 4 drops are smokestack and CA engines, trading post is an exception but it is too good to pass (mostly, being able to recover 4 is truly helpful).
Playing orrery is quite legit, I used to and probably I will switch it in and out from time to time, right now, i think we dont need to go in turbo wasteland mode as most decks are already not able to recover from waste + crucible, and orrery is usually a win more card that's not really able to win us a game on it's own, which is quite bad for a 4 drop if you aim to beat delver.

[Noctalor]

Played the deck yesterday, went 3/1, Karn is bonkers.

[NickDoom]

Played the deck yesterday, went 3/1, Karn is bonkers.

Kill with factory and construct token? 8 mandlands?

[ScheisseSoze]

Played the deck yesterday, went 3/1, Karn is bonkers.

First off, thanks for posting this list. You've revitalized my drive to perfect this archetype in Legacy. I ran a variation of your list (-2 Meekstone +2 Forcefield in the SB) last night at my LGS and went 3-1. I was on stream round 1, which you can watch here (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/261518579)

R1 1-2 vs Esper Stoneblade (lost to Back to Basics both games)
R2 2-1 vs ANT
R3 2-1 vs Aluren
R4 2-1 vs Miracles (lost to Back to Basics)

As you can see from the streamed match, drawing multiple Trinispheres when I was trying to prevent my opponent from playing 3CMC cards felt pretty bad. Vindicate, TNN, and Back to Basics all showed up and didn't really care about Trinisphere. I know there's been extensive debate between Trinisphere vs Sphere of Resistance vs Lodestone Golem in this thread, but Trinispheres def felt like a liability here. My issue with Resistor is it can backfire on you vs certain decks. I think Lodestone Golem would fit very well in this list, really only making Karn more expensive to cast.

Trading Post didn't do anything, and I'm inclined to think it's a bit cute at this point. Might warrant further testing. I also missed the 4th Smokestack, so I'll have to think of how to fit that in, later.

Here's what I'll be trying next:

Legacy - Stax
Lands (25)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Inventor's Fair
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

Creatures (4)
4 Lodestone Golem

Artifacts (27)
1 Bottled Cloister
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Mox Diamond
3 Ratchet Bomb
3 Smokestack
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
3 Trinisphere

Planeswalkers (4)
4 Karn, Scion of Urza

SB (15)
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Forcefield
1 Null Brooch
1 Powder Keg
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Silent Arbiter
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Uba Mask
1 Zuran Orb

Any feedback or discussion is def welcome!

[Noctalor]

Hey, glad to see some movement :laugh:

Tradind Post is pretty good imho, I felt the need to have a gainlife effect in a lot of games, mostly against delver.

4rth Smokestack is of course welcome, my problem is that stack is actually pretty bad against pyromancer, and too slow against combo, so in my opinion we have reasons to play only 3 copies.

I am super duper against sphere of resistance in this deck, we have quite a bad time playing under our own sphere, trini is pretty good but 4 copies may be too many, I am running the full set just to improve my odds to get one online asap, running 3, or event 2 is still a legit choice, i would still run some copies because trini plus denial is a good plan against most of the current meta.
Of course you coard out most (if not all) of the trini against any deck running a 2/3 curve.



For the 8 manland topic, its quite good to run the fullset of mutavault, but we can't really afford to play them currently, at best, we can cut 3x port for 3 manlands, but all of the other lands are much better than mutavault, and port felt quite good to me aswell.


Ill'gladly see the streaming later, thanks!


EDIT (as i watch your games)

Game 1 you had "true" lock, the turn you play crucible the correct play is to sac tomb sac bridge, tick smoke to 3 (oppo can't play spells), cast crubicle, oppo sacs full board against a trini, a crubible and a stack, in our turn we sac stack and 2x land, keeping trini, crucible and a land, quarter + waste recursion in this scenario is 99% game, and we also have a factory up.
Sacrifice trini is a mistake imho because even if you get your opponent to 0, or close to 0 permanents he is still able to fire fows and cantrips, and the stack lock becomes much less important

[ScheisseSoze]

Hey, glad to see some movement :laugh:
Game 1 you had "true" lock, the turn you play crucible the correct play is to sac tomb sac bridge, tick smoke to 3 (oppo can't play spells), cast crubicle, oppo sacs full board against a trini, a crubible and a stack, in our turn we sac stack and 2x land, keeping trini, crucible and a land, quarter + waste recursion in this scenario is 99% game, and we also have a factory up.
Sacrifice trini is a mistake imho because even if you get your opponent to 0, or close to 0 permanents he is still able to fire fows and cantrips, and the stack lock becomes much less important

Good points for sure. I'll keep testing Trading Post and not give up on it too quickly. I think 3 Trinisphere should be a good place to start. After some thinking, I like Lodestone best in the board after they've already taken out removal against you. Also good for when you're taking out Trinispheres vs decks with a curve of 2-3 mana. There are a lot of 3 and 4 CMC spells that spell trouble for us and I like lining Lodestone up with those by making them harder to cast.

This is what I'll try tonight. I'll report back, after.

Legacy - Stax
Lands (26)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Inventor's Fair
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Rishadan Port
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Wasteland

Artifacts (30)
1 Bottled Cloister
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Mox Diamond
3 Ratchet Bomb
4 Smokestack
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Trading Post
3 Trinisphere

Planeswalkers (4)
4 Karn, Scion of Urza

SB (15)
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Forcefield
4 Lodestone Golem
1 Powder Keg
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Silent Arbiter
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Zuran Orb

[Dice_Box]

I am surprised to see Buried Ruin totally cut. That card is another form of card selection that is very very handy. Granted I am still playing Metalworker builds so that may lean into my affection for it.

[Noctalor]

I am surprised to see Buried Ruin totally cut. That card is another form of card selection that is very very handy. Granted I am still playing Metalworker builds so that may lean into my affection for it.

buried ruin is generally good, totally playable, but blank in the early game.
Given that I want to run 8x strip the only lands that can be switched are ports, which offer some kind of early play, still, there is no doubt buried ruins could be played in those slots.


Good points for sure. I'll keep testing Trading Post and not give up on it too quickly. I think 3 Trinisphere should be a good place to start. After some thinking, I like Lodestone best in the board after they've already taken out removal against you. Also good for when you're taking out Trinispheres vs decks with a curve of 2-3 mana. There are a lot of 3 and 4 CMC spells that spell trouble for us and I like lining Lodestone up with those by making them harder to cast.

This is what I'll try tonight. I'll report back, after.

Legacy - Stax


The list looks pretty solid, good luck

[ScheisseSoze]

Quick tournament report last night with the most recent list above:

R1 2-1 vs Death & Taxes
R2 2-1 vs UR Delver
R3 0-2 vs Death & Taxes
R4 0-2 vs Grixis Delver

Observations from Round 3 - He had Revoker for my Ratchet Bomb both games, which would have otherwise been backbreaking for him. There was a moment game 2 that I could have reset the board with Smokestack, but opted to try and hang in there. It didn't pan out and I died. Also of note, Thalia, Heretic Cathar is extremely annoying for us. Revoker is definitely a problem though.

Round 4, opponent mulls to 5 and is on the play. He Spell Pierces my turn 1 Trinisphere, plays a Deathrite Shaman, and cantrips for a few turns while Dazing my spells until he lands a Gurmag Angler, and I die. Game 2 I play a turn 1 Trinisphere off a Mox and Ancient Tomb, which sticks! Then he Wastelands me, and I don't draw another mana producing land for 12 turns and I die.

Before the tournament, I went 5-0 in games across two different Dredge players (they can't beat Bridge), and went 3-4 in games vs Eldrazi Aggro after the tournament. The Eldrazi games were almost all non-games where we just ignored each other as much as possible.

This deck mulls a LOT. Looking back to Michael Coyle's lists with Serum Powder, I wonder if those are just necessary for this deck. Also I'd like to potentially work in some way to kill creatures like DRS and Revoker. Ballista seems fine, but I'd like something else. Further testing leads me to believe Forcefield doesn't deserve 2 slots, but is still good vs the right decks (it was great vs Eldrazi). Consistency seems to be the biggest issue with the deck, though, overall.

[Barachai]

Thinking of testing this vs 4C Pile this coming Friday:

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Inventors' Fair
3 Buried Ruin
1 Dunes of the Dead
1 Mishra's Factory
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

4 Mox Diamond
4 Serum Powder

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Smokestacks
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Tangle Wire

3 Karn, Scion of Urza
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Sundial of the Infinite

SB:
2 Maze of Ith
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
3 Ratchet Bomb
3 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Batterskull
2 Etched Champion
1 Phyrexian Metamorph

The Champions and Metamorph in the board are experimental, hope is that the champions will give the needed edge vs Pile while also being a brick wall against other decks (not entirely sure how metamorph will do but I want to find out). The mainboard Sundial has done a surprisingly large amount of work, was on two before karn. Reanimator has been nonexistent at my LGS for a while, if it shows up hopefully chalice/bridge/maze will do the trick.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

[Dice_Box]

I am going to play this pile of shit tonight:

2 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
2 Hornet Nest
4 Ramunap Excavator
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
3 Smokestack
3 Trinisphere

4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
1 Dryad Arbor
8 Forest
3 Ghost Quarter
3 Hickory Woodlot
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Beast within
1 Krosan Grip
2 Sylvan Library
1 Scooze
2 Rec Sage
1 Centaur Vinecrasher (I want Swagtusk here, but I need something big with Trample to deal with TNN)
3 Choke
3 Null Rod

[Noctalor]

I am going to play this pile of shit tonight:

2 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
2 Hornet Nest
4 Ramunap Excavator
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
3 Smokestack
3 Trinisphere

4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
1 Dryad Arbor
8 Forest
3 Ghost Quarter
3 Hickory Woodlot
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Beast within
1 Krosan Grip
2 Sylvan Library
1 Scooze
2 Rec Sage
1 Centaur Vinecrasher (I want Swagtusk here, but I need something big with Trample to deal with TNN)
3 Choke
3 Null Rod

I was thinking about something similar, Rites of flourishing could be a card you want, also, i think hornet nest is not what you are looking for in this kind of deck

[Ralf]

@ Dice: Having brewed (and heavily tested) with Green Stax, I can tell you that Delver (or anything flying) is a nightmare for your list. The only way to fix that issue is to find either a good body with reach (Bassara Tower Archer/Traproot Kami) or add a small splash for Abrupt decay. With 4 GSZ, pick your weapon of choice !

My two cents.

Regards,

Ralf

[Dice_Box]

I agree that Nest is bad overall, I just thought it was cute and was not really sure what else I want there. Maybe something like Devoted Druid.


@ Dice: Having brewed (and heavily tested) with Green Stax, I can tell you that Delver (or anything flying) is a nightmare for your list. The only way to fix that issue is to find either a good body with reach (Bassara Tower Archer/Traproot Kami) or add a small splash for Abrupt decay. With 4 GSZ, pick your weapon of choice !

My two cents.

Regards,

Ralf
Thanks, I will get on that. Should be something I can use in my EDH decks.

I am thinking either Scryb Ranger or Deadly Recluse.

[Dice_Box]

I ended up running this:

//Creatures:
2 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Deadly Recluse
4 Ramunap Excavator
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth

//Sorceries:
4 Green Sun's Zenith

//Artifacts:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
3 Smokestack
2 Smuggler's Copter
3 Trinisphere

//Lands:
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
1 Dryad Arbor
6 Forest
2 Ghost Quarter
3 Hickory Woodlot
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
1 Wooded Foothills

//Planeswalkers:
1 Garruk Relentless

//Sideboard:
2 Beast Within
3 Choke
1 Krosan Grip
2 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Sylvan Library
4 Thorn of Amethyst

Went 3/0 off to work before round 4. I think the deck would be better without the Stax in it, just as a bad Green Stompy shell. It's very fun, it's very resistant to hate but it lacks meaningful interaction and will likely die to a TNN.

[Mr. Headshot]

Wouldn't Natural Order fit in nicely?

[Barachai]

Wouldn't Natural Order fit in nicely?

At that point I think the deck is just Stompy/Sylvan Plug. I've wanted to make something like that though, like:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
8 Forest
3 Foothills
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Chrome Mox
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 GSZ
3 Natural Order
3 Trinisphere
2 Choke

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trackers
2 Courser
1 Excavator
1 Scooze
1 Titania
1 Tusk
1 Eternal Witness
7 Other things

SB: another natural order, more targety targets, etc.
Could be a lot of fun in vintage, ordering into a Bane of Progress or something.

[Dice_Box]

Wouldn't Natural Order fit in nicely?
I definitely think so. I could cut the Smokestack for 1 extra Garruk (It's a must) and two NO. The issue then is what you put in, you have to shape the deck and your not playing a ton of creatures you really want to sac.

[Noctalor]

Btw, this is what i was trying.
More staxx heavy, because that's what I prefer to do


// 60 Maindeck
// 23 Artifact
4 Smokestack
4 Mox Diamond
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Ensnaring Bridge

// 2 Creature
2 Ramunap Excavator

// 10 Enchantment
4 Rites of Flourishing
2 Choke
4 Ground Seal

// 25 Land
4 Wasteland
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
8 Forest
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale


// 15 Sideboard
// 2 Artifact
SB: 2 Sphere of Resistance

// 5 Creature
SB: 2 Dawnstrider
SB: 3 Faerie Macabre

// 7 Enchantment
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 2 Song of the Dryads
SB: 3 Seal of Primordium

// 1 Sorcery
SB: 1 Tsunami



Having fun with this list, I think im going to give it a fair shot

[Dice_Box]

If your playing Green, you need Tracker. It's just too strong not to play. Clues, even without buffing Tracker, offer so much.

[Noctalor]

If your playing Green, you need Tracker. It's just too strong not to play. Clues, even without buffing Tracker, offer so much.

While I do agree that tracker would probably be a good pick, I would prefer not to be soft to removals, even if tracker could still at least generate 1 clue.

Also, im not sure what i would want to cut, and 4 bridges are a bit of a nonbo aswell

[Dice_Box]

Bridge is not a nonbo, because I'm looking at it not as an attacker but as a draw engine. The ablity to make Clues you can sac to Stax or just draw cards, the decks biggest weakness, is itself an effect to seize. The idea that sometimes it will turn sideways is gravy. The fact that it can eat a swords is just unfortunate.

[TLK]

Yeah, Trackers turn any land into an advantage by giving you another permanent you can sac to Stax.

[Barachai]

Yeah, Trackers turn any land into an advantage by giving you another permanent you can sac to Stax.

Even better, if you sacrifice a clue to smokestack Tireless Tracker gets the +1/+1 counter :smile:

----

Last night I played the list I posted earlier at FNM. Went 3-1, beating Esper Stoneblade, High Tide, and 4c Pile (Finally!), losing to Miracles.

Best news is that I finally found a sideboard plan that scares Pile, namely 2x Etched Champion + 2x Batterskull + full set of Spyglass; who knew true-name nemesis would be so effective.

I'm not entirely sure what to think of the Metamorph, it was extremely cute copying Leovold, might have been better copying an etched champion (might be better just as the 3rd etched champion). Did not like the life loss, might have to test more.

The mazes never came in, though there was infect that night and they would have been solid there. They were brought in to deal with delvers + reanimated idiots.

I liked the mainboard, Karn was a beast when he sticked, was less impressed with the tangle wires and will switch them next time for +1 Sundial and +1 Spyglass, maybe. Also not sure about the flex lands, Tabernacle and Factory were the least relevant overall but then again I didn't hit many matchups where they were super relevant. One of them could very likely be better as another dunes of the dead, card has proven to be very good.

[non-inflammable]

was less impressed with the tangle wires and will switch them next time for +1 Sundial and +1 Spyglass, maybe. Also not sure about the flex lands, Tabernacle and Factory were the least relevant overall but then again I didn't hit many matchups where they were super relevant. One of them could very likely be better as another dunes of the dead, card has proven to be very good.

any reason why you wouldn't run ghost quarter, even as a 1 or 2 of?

[Barachai]

any reason why you wouldn't run ghost quarter, even as a 1 or 2 of?

Ghost Quarter sets the deck back on mana for no effect vs most of the legacy meta, in a deck loaded with 3 and 4 drops; by the time it's worth activating our opponent should have scarier things to worry about. In other terms, if you feel good about activating a ghost quarter you're probably already winning. If we had a 3 or 2 mana exploration effect, or if the meta was 100% delver and eldrazi, that'd make ghost quarter a consideration to me.

[Noctalor]

Ghost Quarter sets the deck back on mana for no effect vs most of the legacy meta, in a deck loaded with 3 and 4 drops; by the time it's worth activating our opponent should have scarier things to worry about. In other terms, if you feel good about activating a ghost quarter you're probably already winning. If we had a 3 or 2 mana exploration effect, or if the meta was 100% delver and eldrazi, that'd make ghost quarter a consideration to me.

https://magiccards.info/scans/en/fut/137.jpg

[Dice_Box]

Ghost Quarter sets the deck back on mana for no effect vs most of the legacy meta, in a deck loaded with 3 and 4 drops; by the time it's worth activating our opponent should have scarier things to worry about. In other terms, if you feel good about activating a ghost quarter you're probably already winning. If we had a 3 or 2 mana exploration effect, or if the meta was 100% delver and eldrazi, that'd make ghost quarter a consideration to me.
You want GQ not because it helps when you are ahead but it puts the screws on when you are level. Once you can Crucible it you can do more damage than you think with that card.

[Barachai]

You want GQ not because it helps when you are ahead but it puts the screws on when you are level. Once you can Crucible it you can do more damage than you think with that card.
Sure, it does a lot of damage at parity. Problem is that most of the better decks are very good at getting (and staying) ahead on board, ie DRS + Strix, which has lead to a lot of my games feeling like a game from behind, not at parity. I'd rather have Dunes of the Dead to assist my Smokestack in pulling ahead on board more often than not.

(it probably doesn't help that just about everyone in my local meta has their deck built to be somewhat Ghost Quarter resistant, due to a fairly strong Lands presence; also probably doesn't help that DRS + Kommand/Decay has lead me to not relying on Crucible as much as I would like)

And yes, if you're in green it changes quite a bit.

Edit: as a kind of summary, there are a couple basic problems I have with Ghost Quarter at the moment, namely:
1. the existence of Deathrite Shaman
2. the format is very Tempo-sensitive
3. the format is playing more basics
4. the deck I'm playing needs 4+ mana to operate
5. the deck needs to reach 4+ non-Ancient tomb mana against most decks in order to not die
6. Ghost Quarter plays very badly with Ensnaring Bridge
In addition, Ghost Quarter innately has its own problems:
1. It's dependent on how your opponents deck is configured to be good
2. It is mediocre without an exploration effect
3. It's a poor topdeck that does little to bring back the board in most matchups

Not that I don't like Ghost Quarter, and there are plenty of conditions that would move me to play it (notably if Grixis delver, eldrazi and/or elves ever come back to my local meta in force). I tried it and found it to be wrong to activate it the vast majority of the times I've had it (I've actually been finding myself in more situations where wasteland is wrong to activate), so I moved away from it. I would play the *** out of it if my deck were in green (which is for sure why lands plays it over Port of late) or if my meta stopped being a midrange and control slugfest.

[hofzge]

I will try this next week at the LGS:
//Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
6 Forest
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills

//Spells
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Karn, Scion of Urza
4 Mox Diamond
3 Smokestack
2 Sylvan Library
3 Trinisphere

//Creatures
1 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
2 Ramunap Excavator
1 Reclamation Sage
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth

//Sideboard
SB: 1 Karn, Scion of Urza
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 3 Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 Seal of Primordium
SB: 2 Sorcerous Spyglass
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 4 Thorn of Amethyst

Hit me with critique!

Also on another note: How do we win against the lockier decks like Dragon stompy? Fiery Confluence owns all our plans...

[P210]

-1 Mox, + 1 Land
I think the land count is a bit low to support four Moxen...

Gesendet von meinem CS40 mit Tapatalk

[Noctalor]

-1 Mox, + 1 Land
I think the land count is a bit low to support four Moxen...

Gesendet von meinem CS40 mit Tapatalk

24/4 is quite standard, maybe you missed the dryad arbor

[P210]

24/4 is quite standard, maybe you missed the dryad arbor

Right, missed the Dryad. Still think 4 Moxen is a lot. I used to play 3 Moxen with 26 Lands in the colorless Stax shell.

Other question, whats the plan against Sneak & Show without Ensnaring Bridges in the 75?

[Noctalor]

DRS ban is amazing for any crucible based staxxx.

We have a shot at becoming kinda viable imho

[hofzge]

I guess the deck does not really want the Elvish Spirit Guides, but as pointed out maybe a land more:

//Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Bayou
3 City of Traitors
3 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Savannah
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills

//Spells
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Karn, Scion of Urza
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Mox Diamond
3 Smokestack
2 Sylvan Library
3 Trinisphere

//Creatures
2 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Obstinate Baloth
3 Ramunap Excavator
1 Reclamation Sage
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth

//Sideboard
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 3 Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Sorcerous Spyglass
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 3 Thorn of Amethyst


What so you guys think? It seems like a love affair between Maverick, Sylvan Plug and Stax...

[SMRiggin]

I’m working on a mono brown list for a local Tournament this weekend. I’m trying to diversify threats a little - any feedback is appreciated!

3 Mox Diamond
4 Metalworker
1 Staff of Domination
1 Walking Ballista
3 smokestack
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
3 crucible of worlds
2 ratchet bomb
4 ensnaring bridge
2 Tangle Wire
3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Karn, Scion of Urza

3 Ghost Quarter
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
3 city of Traitors
3 Inventors’ Fair
3 Buried Ruin
4 Rishadan Port

[Chronatog]

I’m working on a mono brown list for a local Tournament this weekend. I’m trying to diversify threats a little - any feedback is appreciated!
3 Ghost Quarter
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
3 city of Traitors
3 Inventors’ Fair
3 Buried Ruin
4 Rishadan Port
Why there are no Mishra's Factory(ies)?

[SMRiggin]

Why there are no Mishra's Factory(ies)?

Honestly, I’m not sure I need them. Between Karn constructs and Ballista I don’t feel like I need another win condition and I’d rather use those slots for more land denial w/ Ghost Quarter. Now that DRS is out of the picture, I feel like it’s a legitimate win Con.

Shawn

[Fred_Bear]

I’m working on a mono brown list for a local Tournament this weekend. I’m trying to diversify threats a little - any feedback is appreciated!

3 Mox Diamond
4 Metalworker
1 Staff of Domination
1 Walking Ballista
3 smokestack
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
3 crucible of worlds
2 ratchet bomb
4 ensnaring bridge
2 Tangle Wire
3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Karn, Scion of Urza

3 Ghost Quarter
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
3 city of Traitors
3 Inventors’ Fair
3 Buried Ruin
4 Rishadan Port


What do you plan to see at the tournament?

In a vacuum, I wouldn't play Ghost Quarter unless I know I'm facing a ton of RUG Delver or Eldrazi. I would definitely play the 4th City and 4th Mox Diamond as this deck is going to be very mana hungry. I also don't feel like 4x Karn is the right number. I suppose a case could be made, but I would think you want more lock pieces early and I would focus in that direction.

Very interested in how you do!

[Chronatog]

Honestly, I’m not sure I need them. Between Karn constructs and Ballista I don’t feel like I need another win condition and I’d rather use those slots for more land denial w/ Ghost Quarter. Now that DRS is out of the picture, I feel like it’s a legitimate win Con.

Shawn

Since your said "I’m trying to diversify threats a little", perhaps one Mishra's Factory is ok. You have Crucible of Worlds that can return your Factory into play again and again, if you need.

[Dice_Box]

Factory is really handy, since you can make it infinitely large with the Metalworker combo. Back before Ballista was printed that was my kill in Brown Stax.

[SMRiggin]

Thanks for all the feedback everyone. Made some tweaks based on a few suggestions both here and from my local MUD guy. The updated list I’m running tomorrow:

4 Mox Diamond
4 Metalworker
1 Staff of Domination
2 Walking Ballista
3 smokestack
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
3 crucible of worlds
2 ratchet bomb
3 ensnaring bridge
2 Tangle Wire
3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void

3 Karn, Scion of Urza

1Ghost Quarter
1 mishra’s factory
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 city of Traitors
3 Inventors’ Fair
3 Buried Ruin
4 Rishadan Port

SB
1 walking ballista
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
3 faerie macabre
3 sphere of resistance
1 phyrexian revoker
1 ensnaring bridge
1 meekstone
2 ratchet bomb
2 grafdigger’s cage

I’ll post updates and a little write up tomorrow night or Sunday.

Thanks for the help!
Shawn

[SMRiggin]

So not a great day - finished 2-3 drop

Rd1 UR Burn 0-2, 0-1
I think I was Price of Progressed 5x in the 2 games. Only saw 1 Chalice G2 and it was smashed to smithereens.
Rd2 Storm 2-0, 1-1
I’ll take this matchup all day long.
Rd3 Esper Stoneblade 0-2, 1-2
TNN is not a good card for us. Ratchet bomb helps, but that and bridge are Our only outs.
Rd4 Elves 2-0, 2-2
Again. All day long I will take this match up. Chalice and trinisphere are just too good.
Rd5 UWR Stoneblade 0-2, 2-3
I was really tired of seeing TNN at this point.

Out of contention, I dropped and left.

I would much rather have seen more unfair decks - and there were lots of basics today. Not sure if Back to Basics was part of a couple of those lists, but it wouldn’t surprise me.

Shawn

[Noctalor]

So not a great day - finished 2-3 drop

Rd1 UR Bore unfair decks - and there were lots of basics today. Not sure if Back to Basics was part of a couple of those lists, but it wouldn’t surprise me.

Shawn

Man, be sure to run the fullset of bridges, we would run 8 of them if we could

[Dice_Box]

Man, be sure to run the fullset of bridges, we would run 8 of them if we could
I do that in Modern all the time. I agree, 8 is a good number.

[Fred_Bear]

In thinking about a couple of the comments...

We'd run 8 Bridges if we could...

We run 4x Metalworker...

I can't help but think that these are pulling in different directions. Should one be in the side and 1 in the main? I agree Bridge is quite strong right now, so is Metalworker worth the space?

[Barachai]

In thinking about a couple of the comments...

We'd run 8 Bridges if we could...

We run 4x Metalworker...

I can't help but think that these are pulling in different directions. Should one be in the side and 1 in the main? I agree Bridge is quite strong right now, so is Metalworker worth the space?

They work well together in my experience; metalworker pays for bridge and dumps the hand, also grants enough mana to Inventors' Fair a bridge+dump it. With 4 Fair and 4 Metalworker it's not unlike running 8 bridges.

[Dice_Box]

In thinking about a couple of the comments...

We'd run 8 Bridges if we could...

We run 4x Metalworker...

I can't help but think that these are pulling in different directions. Should one be in the side and 1 in the main? I agree Bridge is quite strong right now, so is Metalworker worth the space?
They do, but they are in the deck for different uses. Think of it this way, the point of Stax is not to win. You are not playing to win. You are playing not to lose. In that way I split the game into three steps in my head:

1 Setup.
In this part of the game you are trying to restrict your opp while opening up as many options to yourself. Things like Chalice or Metalworker are best played here. You want that mana or those locks down asap. Also you want to play things that you know are going to be targeted by interaction. You may be against RUG where you know Chalice is going to screw them hard, but still play Metalworker just to push past a Force. In this step you want Mana and potholes that you can use to get to the next part of the game.

2 Control.
Here you are trying to build upon what you have done to remove more options. Think these are the walls to your house built upon the floor. You are trying to delay, to make life harder for your opp while taking away as many choices or points of interaction as you can. You are not actively pushing something like Stax, but you are trying to get down a Bottled Cloister or a Bridge. Points if you can get both. Metalworker here is fuel, not a plan.

3 Endgame.
If you can gain control this is where you abuse it. Stax starts eating the board, you have activated your Fair and you grab Crucible, you look for a Staff maybe. You are now seeking to gain the concession, worker here is either helping you with Staff or doing nothing. But this is not the thing to focus on. If you got to this point it no longer matters.

Some other things to think about.
You mana is unstable, some of it will kill you, some of it will kill itself. Another source is useful.
Metalworker can block.
Things that help in the setup and control portions of the game, like Fair, are not cheap to use. More mana means tutoring and casting in the same turn.
Having 3 cards in hand with a Metalworker means often the ability to cast them all. You normally have 4 to 6 mana in Lands on the table in the mid game. If you add another 6 mana from Metalworker you are normally all set.

I know it looks odd, but just because cards appear to be contradictory does not mean that they are not synergistic. They just have their roles and what matters is when you use them and what you use them for.

[Fred_Bear]

They work well together in my experience; metalworker pays for bridge and dumps the hand, also grants enough mana to Inventors' Fair a bridge+dump it. With 4 Fair and 4 Metalworker it's not unlike running 8 bridges.

I guess I'm going to respectfully disagree.

Metalworker wants cards in hand.

Ensnaring Bridge wants no cards in hand.

If you have Metalworker in play and active, Inventors' Fair in play, and enough artifacts in hand to activate Fair, get and drop an Ensnaring Bridge, plus dump your hand - I'm going to ask why you didn't just win? Instead of getting the Bridge in that scenario, you should get the Staff and go infinite. The Bridge isn't important here. I'm assuming, of course, that you've got enough knowledge/protection that you weren't going to the run the Bridge/Staff into a FoW, but really in that case, it wouldn't matter which one you were playing, right? So, in this scenario, Metalworker Combo > Bridge.

So, I'm asking do you need Bridge in a Metalworker Combo deck? The only deck listed on MTGGoldfish with Metalworker posting any kind of a finish in the last 3 months is Metalworker MUD - no Ensnaring Bridge in the 75. There are a couple additional Metalworker MUD decks listed on mtgtop8.com, but nothing since the Deathrite/Probe bans with Metalworker + Ensnaring Bridge.

The converse also may be true - do you need Metalworker Combo in a Bridge/Prison deck right now? I'm not saying you can't play the Metalworker Combo as a win condition, but do we need to? Is there something better or that is more in line with the prison plan? This seems to play like a pretty tight deck to me. You lose a lot of consistency when you move from 4-ofs on your lock cards as there isn't a lot of redundancy to Chalice, etc. in the format.


Here's what I've been playing:

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Trinisphere
4x Ensnaring Bridge
4x Mox Diamond
3x Crucible of Worlds
3x Smokestack
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Sorcerous Spyglass
2x Sphere of Resistance
1x Bottled Cloister

1x Random win-con (Batterskull, Wurmcoil, etc.)

4x Lodestone Golem
2x Karn, Scion of Urza

4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Wasteland
3x Inventors' Fair
3x Buried Ruin
3x Rishadan Port
2x Mishra's Factory
1x Horizon Canopy


Sideboard
1x Tormod's Crypt
4x Extraction/Leyline/Faerie
2x Contagion Clasp
1x Ratchet Bomb
3x Defense Grid
1x Karn, Scion of Urza
2x Sphere of Resistance
1x Sorcerous Spyglass

[Dice_Box]

But Metalworker is for setting up, getting the ball rolling. The point of the card it not to still be involved in the game at the point where you want to be empty handed. At that point your changing your role and your goals.

Stax is a deck where you can do what you like, the deck has had its day in the sun and is no longer something anyone cares about but us. If you want to build it one way no one here is going to stop you.

[Fred_Bear]

They do, but they are in the deck for different uses. Think of it this way, the point of Stax is not to win. You are not playing to win. You are playing not to lose.

I apologize for the double post.

I think this is one of the biggest misconceptions about Stax. The point of Magic is always to win. The point of Stax is to be doing it while your opponent watches with a pile of useless/unplayable cards in front of them.

I won't get too theoretical, but Stax (any deck, really) is best when it breaks the symmetry of effects and is able to pull away with an advantage to do multiple things on each turn faster than your opponent. As you point out, the early game is for limiting your opponents options (Prison). [We make it hard for our opponent to do even 1 thing a turn]. I believe the middle game is about using your advantage to pull away from your opponent and set up inevitability - this is where the concession usually occurs (Pressure). [We move from 1 to 2+ angles per turn while the opponent struggles to focus on 1]. The end game can be Factory beat down (Win). [We finish the job]

I've found that Metalworker dilutes what you are trying to do here. Can you play it as a win-con? Sure, but MUD uses that card/strategy better and more consistently (i.e. you use the mana generated to play win-cons and apply pressure). Can you use it for mana generation to play lock pieces? Absolutely, but then where is the pressure? I suppose if your focus is to 'not lose', great. I prefer to be working towards the win.

I also play online more where a play clock is real. I have played a number of games where I dump my hand with Metalworker mana and then draw dead for several turns while my opponent fights back into the game and ahead of me. Like you said, sometimes the deck will lose to itself and playing cards that don't apply enough pressure on your opponent increases that chance. I prefer to go in the other direction...