[Primer/Deck] Stax

[Dice_Box]

I think this is one of the biggest misconceptions about Stax. The point of Magic is always to win.
No, its not. There are decks where the win condition is looping a card from your grave to the top of your Library and letting them draw out. Hell there is one in Standard right now. The point of magic is to do what your planing, but it is not always to win. There are a lot of times the point it not to lose. Hell thats normally the mantra of any control deck. If you can control the game you can win with a Factory and nothing else.

The point of Stax is not to win, it is to slowly remove the options the other person has while keeping yourself alive. You are not playing to win, you are playing not to lose. At all points that should be the question "How do I lose this game?" and then remove each answer you come up with one at a time until there are none left.

Do not build to win, build to live. The deck I am playing in Modern right now wins with a Crucible and a Ipnu Rivulet. Not exactly exciting gameplay but again, thats not the point.

[Fred_Bear]

But Metalworker is for setting up, getting the ball rolling. The point of the card it not to still be involved in the game at the point where you want to be empty handed. At that point your changing your role and your goals.

Stax is a deck where you can do what you like, the deck has had its day in the sun and is no longer something anyone cares about but us. If you want to build it one way no one here is going to stop you.

Sorry, I thought people were here to talk about making the deck better or more competitive...

You're right though, you can play what you want...

[Dice_Box]

Sorry, I thought people were here to talk about making the deck better or more competitive...

You're right though, you can play what you want...
Sure, but you are always going to hit a wall trying to prove something if all you have is an opinion and no prof.

[Fred_Bear]

No, its not. There are decks where the win condition is looping a card from your grave to the top of your Library and letting them draw out. Hell there is one in Standard right now. The point of magic is to do what your planing, but it is not always to win. There are a lot of times the point it not to lose. Hell thats normally the mantra of any control deck. If you can control the game you can win with a Factory and nothing else.

The point of Stax is not to win, it is to slowly remove the options the other person has while keeping yourself alive. You are not playing to win, you are playing not to lose. At all points that should be the question "How do I lose this game?" and then remove each answer you come up with one at a time until there are none left.

Do not build to win, build to live. The deck I am playing in Modern right now wins with a Crucible and a Ipnu Rivulet. Not exactly exciting gameplay but again, thats not the point.


If that's your perspective, great. We're very different, though.

I play with the thought in mind "What are my outs in this situation" - not, "how do I lose". It's not about 'not losing', it's about finding a path to victory.

Even your deck with Crucible and Rivulet is about winning. You assemble your combo whatever path your take, however exciting it is to you - you are trying to win. A deck which lets the opponent draw out is looking to win, too.

I guess I was mistaken. I thought this was a forum on competitive magic.

[Dice_Box]

If that's your perspective, great. We're very different, though....

I guess I was mistaken. I thought this was a forum on competitive magic.
Well I guess if a difference of view is all it take for you to throw a tantrum and leave... bye. Alternatively you know, you could talk about why you feel that something that we all agree works (Playing Bridge in the same deck as a card that lets you make dumb amounts of mana) is a bad idea.

Your issue is that you are walking into a prison discussion and your asking why we are not all trying to be more assertive. Maybe we are looking at things from a very different view point, maybe not.


4x Ensnaring Bridge
...
1x Random win-con (Batterskull, Wurmcoil, etc.)
I can't help but think these things are pulling in different directions, but sometimes they may in fact work together. Who knows though, its not like I have been trying to make that point myself.

[Cave]

I guess I was mistaken. I thought this was a forum on competitive magic.

Speaking of competitive magic, the vast majority of monobrown stax players who ever placed in a tournament, and i mean any tournament, was rocking 4x of both cards.

Metalworker wants your hand full and is a bad topdeck, but it helps vomiting your hand on the battlefield, making bridge better.
Moreover, being a bad topdeck is quite a common trait in this deck. Half of the cards are.

[Fred_Bear]

Well I guess if a difference of view is all it take for you to throw a tantrum and leave... bye. Alternatively you know, you could talk about why you feel that something that we all agree works (Playing Bridge in the same deck as a card that lets you make dumb amounts of mana) is a bad idea.

Your issue is that you are walking into a prison discussion and your asking why we are not all trying to be more assertive. Maybe we are looking at things from a very different view point, maybe not.


I can't help but think these things are pulling in different directions, but sometimes they may in fact work together. Who knows though, its not like I have been trying to make that point myself.


LOL. I guess I missed the part where I threw a tantrum... or left...

This isn't personal, so please don't make it that way. I can handle a difference of opinion, but please don't confuse opinions with data.


I was trying to convey that I don't believe Metalworker is an optimized slot in a Stax deck at this time in this meta. You say 'opinion', but there hasn't been a single Brown Stax list pop on any of the competitive lists site since the bannings. I don't know if anyone has tried, but if everyone 'agrees' that Metalworker + Bridge 'works', but nobody is winning with it, does it really 'work'? Does it make the deck more competitive? Personally, I've put up a couple of 4-1s with my list in MTGO leagues. I'm not arguing that my list is any way 'optimized' or 'competitive', but it's played better for me in the online meta than Metalworker lists (I have many mono-brown iterations since Coyle's finishes last fall) and it's primarily because Bridge >> Metalworker Combo right now. I've tried to acknowledge that there are uses for Metalworker in generating mana, but, to be honest, the best use of the mana is likely to cast creatures (MUD) or combo off (Staff). Dropping redundant lock pieces feels sub-optimal and has played that way for me. As I said, I play in leagues online and players will let you go to time when they see Metalworker beatdown is your only out. Some will concede, sure, but why make the decision theirs?


You're, of course, right - playing a large creature plus Bridge is tough which is why I look for cards which can do multiple things. Golem provides a tax that further slows my opponent and both Wurmcoil and Batterskull have lifelink (which, as you've pointed out can combat some of our weaknesses). As you well know, these games don't follow an exact cookbook, so it's important to play and discover multiple lines. I've noticed that playing these creatures with Bridge provides me multiple lines of play, which I don't feel that Metalworker did. Metalworker has always felt more 'all-in' on a narrow line. I also can't help feel that's why MUD has fallen off while Eldrazi Post has been having more success lately...



Speaking of competitive magic, the vast majority of monobrown stax players who ever placed in a tournament, and i mean any tournament, was rocking 4x of both cards.

Metalworker wants your hand full and is a bad topdeck, but it helps vomiting your hand on the battlefield, making bridge better.
Moreover, being a bad topdeck is quite a common trait in this deck. Half of the cards are.

I guess this is part of my point...

Monobrown Stax hasn't really been anywhere for a while, a long while based on mtggoldfish and mtgtop8. Is it time to shift and look at what is working and what isn't? Obviously it's up to you, but I feel like I topdeck pretty well (not Jace good, but I don't feel bad seeing Golem even with a Bridge in play). I feel pretty confident even if I have to go down to 6 that I'm going to have a line worth playing.


Sorry if mine is a minority opinion or if I'm more willing to question choices or shift my decklist (to improve the deck or win more). I've been playing Stax since I started playing legacy with White Stax in 2007 (I'm the same guy who posted in the Armageddon Stax thread about testing everything). I do have some strong opinions on some cards (Tangle Wire), but it's mostly derived from long hours of playtesting important match-ups. 11 years later, I play exclusively on MTGO which means I don't get as good an interaction with my opponent and I can't always determine my playtest sequences, but I can sub in and out and test and tinker much faster than ordering and waiting (I hated making proxies). I'll continue to provide the information I can, but you can certainly feel free to ignore me... I won't feel bad at all.

[Noctalor]

Sorry, I thought people were here to talk about making the deck better or more competitive...

You're right though, you can play what you want...

Well, the thing is, making the deck more competitive has noting to do with making the deck able to "win".

The plan of the deck is simple, prevent your opponent from playing, you can achieve that either by extreme denial or lock pieces.
Making this deck stronger means find ways to execute this plan better.
Once your opponent is locked out of the game literally anything can win you the game, you are literally against an opponent which cant play any card and controlling no permanent, metalworker beatdown is enough to win in that spot.

Bridge is surely one of the best lock piece we have in our arsenal, at best it straight up wins the game and at worst its absolutely useless, still:
1) we have a pretty hard time against deck trying to rush us, bridge is the only thing that can reasonably save us from not so uncommon scenarios such as a turn 2 tarmo which hits for 5 the next turn, karn is a great addition because he is also able to slow down the pace of the game by spamming reasonably big tokens
2) we are extremely well positioned against any deck which doesnt care about bridge
3) really, we have no other plans against a decent board, and this is the biggest problem with stax, we must start strongly, or we are likely to be able to lock the opponent out, but still lose to their beatdown, bridge is the best card to prevent that.
an example could be having crucible + wasteland against canadian and still losing to a delver because we are not able to recover (mind that often delver is hitting for 5 because we must use tomb), both bridge and bomb are needed to save those games.

Also, talking about explosive starts, this is one of the main reason to run worker.
Firstly, I currently no longer run worker, because in my experience it just gets removed too often before I can activate it.

Still, the "you need a full hand argument" is really, not that well thought.
You should consider worker as a card that (if able to last a turn) is able to cast your entire hand once, and then becomes a decent dork able to ramp up some mana intensive plays such as inventors' fair or just casting your spells w/o having to use tombs.
The thing is, casting your entire hand turn 2/3 usually means that you just win the game.
Its not like we wait the right moment to cast our spells, we would dump our hand turn 2 all the times if possible, most of our cards work best if resolved early, and lose a ton of potential if not.
Considering the "bad side" of a post activation of worker really means little, is having 10 free mana and being able to cast your entire hand is not enough for you to win,you would have lost anyway.

The only reason not to run 4 bridges is bacause you are absolutely sure that you never play against creature decks, which is quite unlikely.
The only reason not to run 4 workers is because you are afraid they are going to get removed too often, and you prefer to not be soft to removals.

Also, worker is actually amazing with bridge, because you often lose by not being able to dump your hand fast enough.
Really, consider this card

Trashcan Ritual :3:
Suspend 1
add :10:

Would you run it?
If not, why not?

[Fred_Bear]

Well, the thing is, making the deck more competitive has noting to do with making the deck able to "win".

The plan of the deck is simple, prevent your opponent from playing, you can achieve that either by extreme denial or lock pieces.
Making this deck stronger means find ways to execute this plan better.
Once your opponent is locked out of the game literally anything can win you the game, you are literally against an opponent which cant play any card and controlling no permanent, metalworker beatdown is enough to win in that spot.

Bridge is surely one of the best lock piece we have in our arsenal, at best it straight up wins the game and at worst its absolutely useless, still:
1) we have a pretty hard time against deck trying to rush us, bridge is the only thing that can reasonably save us from not so uncommon scenarios such as a turn 2 tarmo which hits for 5 the next turn, karn is a great addition because he is also able to slow down the pace of the game by spamming reasonably big tokens
2) we are extremely well positioned against any deck which doesnt care about bridge
3) really, we have no other plans against a decent board, and this is the biggest problem with stax, we must start strongly, or we are likely to be able to lock the opponent out, but still lose to their beatdown, bridge is the best card to prevent that.
an example could be having crucible + wasteland against canadian and still losing to a delver because we are not able to recover (mind that often delver is hitting for 5 because we must use tomb), both bridge and bomb are needed to save those games.

Also, talking about explosive starts, this is one of the main reason to run worker.
Firstly, I currently no longer run worker, because in my experience it just gets removed too often before I can activate it.

Still, the "you need a full hand argument" is really, not that well thought.
You should consider worker as a card that (if able to last a turn) is able to cast your entire hand once, and then becomes a decent dork able to ramp up some mana intensive plays such as inventors' fair or just casting your spells w/o having to use tombs.
The thing is, casting your entire hand turn 2/3 usually means that you just win the game.
Its not like we wait the right moment to cast our spells, we would dump our hand turn 2 all the times if possible, most of our cards work best if resolved early, and lose a ton of potential if not.
Considering the "bad side" of a post activation of worker really means little, is having 10 free mana and being able to cast your entire hand is not enough for you to win,you would have lost anyway.

The only reason not to run 4 bridges is bacause you are absolutely sure that you never play against creature decks, which is quite unlikely.
The only reason not to run 4 workers is because you are afraid they are going to get removed too often, and you prefer to not be soft to removals.

Also, worker is actually amazing with bridge, because you often lose by not being able to dump your hand fast enough.
Really, consider this card

Trashcan Ritual :3:
Suspend 1
add :10:

Would you run it?
If not, why not?


Honestly, I think what you are referring to is confirmation bias. What percentage of the time does Metalworker function 'ideally'? Your proposed card is probably closer to

Trashcan Ritual :3:
Suspend 1
Roll a 20-sided die:
-if you roll a 1, add :10:
-if you roll a 2, add :8:
-if you roll a 3-4, add :6:
-if you roll a 5-7, add :4:
-if you roll a 8-11, add :2:
-if you roll >12, add :0:

That's not to say there isn't an 'expected' value where it is really pay :3:, wait a turn, add :X: and, in my experience, the EV or :X: is probably somewhere between 2 and 3 for a Metalworker depending on how you factor in the game-state, etc. [If I factor in all the different ways to pay :3: and either have it countered, Bolted, nothing in hand, or have it work.] I'd get laughed out of here for suggesting playing Thran Dynamo or Worn Powerstone or even Grim Monolith, but you're really getting about the same return. You just have that fractional percent chance that you go infinite and win with the combo which goes to the confirmation bias. It's happened, so it's obviously awesome...

As you point out, he's a lightning rod, but when he works, he's great. My experience is he doesn't work enough often enough to warrant an auto-inclusion.

[Dice_Box]

Again, to each their own. I have seen builds without it that have worked and with Karn now taking space you will do what you can. Personally I feel that playing with a 4 mana tutor means I want to push my production as high as I can. Even if you are only making 2 mana off it, that's 2 damage you don't have to take off a Tomb. The card is strongest in the early turns and weakens as the game goes on. But in my mind that is not really a mark against it since the same can be said for Moxen, playing 25ish lands or drawing your 3rd Bridge when you really need something else.

Stax is not really a deck one should play and expect to break even with long term in my mind. It lacks a lot of the tools for consistency that many other decks have, trading a lot of deck space for early power plays. That can be effective (Red, Eldrazi and Thopter Stompy come to mind) but it is not a winning plan in a deck without a proactive plan. Stax is such a deck. The speed of the format, the push to faster and faster decks make life hell for us. Losing the die roll can mean losing the game. Even in Vintage where Stax is at its most powerful it has had its day in the sun. That is why its almost always the secondary deck of those of us who play it. Yes, this is a site for competitive play, but sadly Stax is not really a deck that falls in that sphere any longer.

Not that I am going to stop playing it. My view on MW is that it helps speed us up and that it sometimes kills the opp. But we are looking at a deck that has faded, so we are not really debating much more then the shade of green painted on a heritage building. Thats why I found your "there hasn't been a single Brown Stax list pop on any of the competitive lists site since the bannings." comment really amusing. There has not been a honestly competitive Stax deck in about a decade and thats unlikely to change.

[Kaono]

What's up folks, lurked this thread for a while and with M19 was finally able to finish putting this deck together. Took it out to weekly last night and was surprised to end up 4-0. Here's my writeup:

As a prelude, the Seattle area (and much of the PNW) is extremely smokey from forest fires, so it was a fitting night to play Smokestack.

List:
4 Smokestack
4 Mox Diamond
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Ratchet Bomb
4 Sphere of Resistance

3 Walking Ballista
4 Karn, Scion of Urza

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Mishra's Factory
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Buried Ruin
1 Mutavault
2 Inventors' Fair

Sideboard:
4 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Null Brooch
2 Zuran Orb
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Spellskite

Deck is close to a version posted here a while back after Karn was spoiled. Some thoughts on card choices:

0 Trinisphere: Probably the most contentious decision as Stax is kind of THE trinisphere deck. Yes 3ball is a hard lock with Smokestack or Crucible/Wasteland but Trinisphere is a 3 drop and we already have a ton of those. Further I don't like that it does nothing vs cmc3+ stuff. So Tsphere is better in early game but Sphere of Resistance is better in the mid to late game when we have Port, Waste locks, Smokestack etc. Speaking of SoR...

4 Sphere of Resistance: I wanted another 2 drop "lock" piece to keep cmc low which is one of the main reasons I run it. Yes it also hurts us but we can power through it with our sol lands and mox diamonds etc.

0 Metalworker: I love this card, but not in this deck. I want to be creatureless and lower curve which means not relying on a 3 drop to cast 4/5 drops.

3 Walking Ballista: Okay, not exactly creatureless. I don't really view ballista as a traditional creature as 99% of the time it's spot removal. Ratchet Bomb is too slow to kill something like Jace to I wanted some more flexibility. Killing tiny creatures/planeswalkers/win the game on its own while being an artifact makes it really really good in almost every situation. Even just the option of casting it for 0 to clear my hand for bridge is great.

Matches:

I played 3 KotR decks so my memory is a bit rough. Generally unless explicitly mentioned otherwise many games ended with a Smokestack lock. Most of my commentary is about the opening turns where the hardest decisions generally take place as per usual with this deck.

M1: Grixis Control

G1: He FoWs my Chalice, then casts some Strixes and counterspells a Karn. Midgame he KCommands a Sphere of Resistance and makes me discard a land. I then cast a Crucible and beat him to death with recurring Mishra's Factories.

G2: I play t1 Crucible which meets his Spell Pierce. I play a bridge which resolves, then a 3rd mox diamond and inventor's fair. He EEs for 0 and passes, so I wasteland him off 3 mana and get a crucible with fair. He doesn't pop the EE allowing me to play Crucible around Spell Pierce. That lets me recur wastelands and factories and win from there. He didn't find one of his 3 Kcommands that game which was key.

M2: Dark Maverick

G1: He develops a board with KotR and Noble and some other stuff, but luckily I find my Tabernacle and severely hamper his mana development. I think I also have crucible since he grabs a Cradle with kotr rather than wastelanding the Tabernacle. Eventually I run him out of resources with Smokestack.

G2: He thoughtseizes my Karn, but of course I immediately topdeck a 2nd and quickly overrun him with CA while hiding behind bridge. He tries to resolve a Ramunap Excavator but only has 3 mana and I have Sphere in play. Smokestack / port end him soon after.

M3: Aggro Bant

G1: He FoWs an early chalice, then lands 2 kotrs. I have Karn so plan on making a token to stabilize, but need a chalice on 1 to not lose to STP. I buried ruin the early chalice back and cast it, but walk right into daze and then concede.

G2: I have no idea what happened in this game. I think he kept a really bad hand and I got a wasteland lock.

G3: This was a really really long game. He lead tundra pass, so I wastelanded it. He surgically extracted my Wastelands which I was glad to see as it doesn't do much. From there the game was a blur as I got Crucible online and found a Ghost Quarter. He had no basics in the deck so I alternated between recurring Mishra's Factories to chump his 11/11 kotr and GQing his stuff. A Karn eventually got the ball rolling and I made some constructs that ended the game.

M4: Maverick

G1: I think this was a game where I got out an early Smokestack but had to sacrifice it to itself because I didn't have a crucible and he had like KotR/Noble/BoP + a bunch of lands. From there I believe a Tabernacle saved me and possibly a bridge. I then used Buried Ruin to get back Smokestack and locked out the game from there.

G2: Another long game that I ended up restarting with Smokestack on 2 to clear his 2x Thalia board but that left me up a land and wiped out most of his basics. From there I established a Bridge, Tabernacle, Crucible, Port, Karn, Chalice, Smokestack lock and rode out an easy victory.

Closing Thoughts: This deck is a blast to play. I don't know I'd make any changes except put in a 2nd Tabernacle if I owned it. Karn is great. Lock pieces are great. Smokestack creates board states/decision trees that are more complex than anything I've played in a long time. I never understood why people put Powder Keg in their SB rather than a 4th Ratchet Bomb until it got pithing needled. I think Walking Ballista is the truth and am looking forward to exploring it more. Playing against mono-creature decks all night was pretty nice. I don't actually know what our good/bad MUs are. I would imagine Burn is pretty bad. Last thing -- does it actually matter what order you stack Tabernacle/Smokestack? I think the right answer is Tabernacle first then Smokestack so they have to pay for creatures they might've wanted to sac otherwise. But if you think they're going to keep all of them then possibly reverse order so they lose the creature if they forget to float mana before saccing? IDK, seems corner case. Anyway, thanks for reading.

[Fred_Bear]

Closing Thoughts: This deck is a blast to play. I don't know I'd make any changes except put in a 2nd Tabernacle if I owned it. Karn is great. Lock pieces are great. Smokestack creates board states/decision trees that are more complex than anything I've played in a long time. I never understood why people put Powder Keg in their SB rather than a 4th Ratchet Bomb until it got pithing needled. I think Walking Ballista is the truth and am looking forward to exploring it more. Playing against mono-creature decks all night was pretty nice. I don't actually know what our good/bad MUs are. I would imagine Burn is pretty bad. Last thing -- does it actually matter what order you stack Tabernacle/Smokestack? I think the right answer is Tabernacle first then Smokestack so they have to pay for creatures they might've wanted to sac otherwise. But if you think they're going to keep all of them then possibly reverse order so they lose the creature if they forget to float mana before saccing? IDK, seems corner case. Anyway, thanks for reading.

Great job!

I agree that it is a blast to play and I really like your list. No 3-ball is certainly an interesting choice, but I like your logic and may give it a spin!

I believe you want to stack the Smokestack and then Tabernacle so that Tabernacle resolves first. This forces them to pay for a creature that they may want to sacrifice to the Smokestack. It will likely depend more on the rest of the board, though. I would certainly do it this way if you have an active Bridge or enough construct tokens to keep them from attacking effectively. Hindering their development to pay for a useless creature to sacrifice would be preferred.

[Kaono]

Great job!

I agree that it is a blast to play and I really like your list. No 3-ball is certainly an interesting choice, but I like your logic and may give it a spin!

I believe you want to stack the Smokestack and then Tabernacle so that Tabernacle resolves first. This forces them to pay for a creature that they may want to sacrifice to the Smokestack. It will likely depend more on the rest of the board, though. I would certainly do it this way if you have an active Bridge or enough construct tokens to keep them from attacking effectively. Hindering their development to pay for a useless creature to sacrifice would be preferred.

I'm glad you like my Trinisphere logic since I don't entirely agree with what I wrote earlier, haha.

After thinking more about it for a day this is where I stand on the Trinisphere - Sphere of Resistance argument:

Obviously both Trinisphere and Sphere of Resistance are great alongside Port / Wasteland / Smokestack. That's a no-brainer and it was wrong for me to state that SoR is somehow better lategame than TSphere.

Trinisphere's primary draw is it's way better vs Daze/FoW, both of which are really bad for us because any turn an opponent can develop their board by casting something then hinder our development by countering something is extremely bad. That reason alone might be enough to play Trinisphere and will be something I keep a close eye on.

However, what I absolutely hate about Trinisphere and the reason I want to play SoR is Tsphere does nothing vs cards like K Command and Jace which I think cause more game losses than something getting FoW'd. 3 mana is kind of the magic number for the deck -- I can almost always craft the early game to a point where I am wasting/porting someone to keep them at/around 3 mana. Since the demise of BUG and Decay there just aren't many 1/2 mana spells I care about, and SoR is ONLY worse than TSphere against 1 mana spells (counter-magic notwithstanding). Some people will point out that SoR is symmetrical and affects us too, which can be a real issue, but in matches where it matters (non-sol land mirrors) we have the asymmetrical advantage of our sol lands.

So, considering all the above, and adding on the fact that TSphere is 3 mana and typically cast on t2, I'm happy to cut TSphere and play a situationally better/worse card like Sphere of Resistance that can be consistently cast on t1.

[Dice_Box]

You can't stack Tabernacle, it's not your trigger.

[Fred_Bear]

I'm glad you like my Trinisphere logic since I don't entirely agree with what I wrote earlier, haha.

After thinking more about it for a day this is where I stand on the Trinisphere - Sphere of Resistance argument:

Obviously both Trinisphere and Sphere of Resistance are great alongside Port / Wasteland / Smokestack. That's a no-brainer and it was wrong for me to state that SoR is somehow better lategame than TSphere.

Trinisphere's primary draw is it's way better vs Daze/FoW, both of which are really bad for us because any turn an opponent can develop their board by casting something then hinder our development by countering something is extremely bad. That reason alone might be enough to play Trinisphere and will be something I keep a close eye on.

However, what I absolutely hate about Trinisphere and the reason I want to play SoR is Tsphere does nothing vs cards like K Command and Jace which I think cause more game losses than something getting FoW'd. 3 mana is kind of the magic number for the deck -- I can almost always craft the early game to a point where I am wasting/porting someone to keep them at/around 3 mana. Since the demise of BUG and Decay there just aren't many 1/2 mana spells I care about, and SoR is ONLY worse than TSphere against 1 mana spells (counter-magic notwithstanding). Some people will point out that SoR is symmetrical and affects us too, which can be a real issue, but in matches where it matters (non-sol land mirrors) we have the asymmetrical advantage of our sol lands.

So, considering all the above, and adding on the fact that TSphere is 3 mana and typically cast on t2, I'm happy to cut TSphere and play a situationally better/worse card like Sphere of Resistance that can be consistently cast on t1.

Well, if it's not too late for me to backtrack, I would say this better articulates what I agree with for Trinisphere vs Sphere of Resistance.

Trinisphere is an amazing turn 1 play, but you then have to commit to keeping them off 3 mana. With Sphere of Resistance, your commitment to mana denial is lessened as the Sphere 'tax' remains in effect. Now against 'horrible' cards like Jace or K Command (which feels like the current worst), you have more options. Personally, I've not been a fan of Port more recently as I don't feel like we can take full advantage of it (like DnT with using Vial) and it relies on other cards (like Trinisphere or SoR) to be 'good'. 2 mana a turn to tax them 1 mana has been too situationally bad lately. The format is just so fast... Recently, I've been debating testing again with Winter Orb.

Dice is correct, on your opponent's turn, the Tabernacle triggers will all resolve after your Smokestack trigger (APNAP), on your turn, you choose. I was confusing this with Smokestack and Tangle Wire triggers. You always want them to sac before tapping down.

[Ralf]

@ Thread: about trini vs SoR.

I think the real deal is all about CA and CDA. You can stack up the SoR, the reverse is not true for Trini. Basically, you'll never want to draw another trini after the first one (safe the first one was destroyed or sacc'ed to Smokestack).
The stax's philosophy is about locking your opponent. Trini is more for stomping your opponent in the early game and kill him before he can recover.
That doesn't mean that you should not play Trini, as it can be a way to achieve your lock. But I would advise no more than 1 or 2 in your 75 (for a stax deck).

APNAP - bitching is real

The way triggers are working is really funny. To master (and I don't as I would make many mistakes especially in the long run) how it works takes ages (and a lot of practise).
Anyway, this reminds me few tricks. One of the best is involving Tabernacle + Stack + Tangle wire. If your oppo forgot floating mana while tapping for Tangle it can lead to huge blowout when they resolve the Tabernacle trigger...

Another way to win (Bitching is life) = GRV. This is really bad and hard to judge.

Just remind that some players (even the good ones) could lose their temper. Just be aware of that while playing this deck.

Have fun.

[Kaono]

Port sucks in certain situations, but what other land would replace it? It's so good in lockdown/smokestack situations I can't think of another land I'd want that'd be better in "normal" situations.

Thanks for the reminder about Tabernacle. I rarely play with it so when my opponent asked me how I was stacking my Tabernacle/Smokestack triggers I just went with it.

I plan on continuing to play with the deck so am curious to hear from the Stax vets what the matchup favorabilities and sideboards should look like in the current meta. Looking back it seems like people had a hard time with Maverick and Thalia decks.

[ESG]

M3: Aggro Bant

G1: He FoWs an early chalice, then lands 2 kotrs. I have Karn so plan on making a token to stabilize, but need a chalice on 1 to not lose to STP. I buried ruin the early chalice back and cast it, but walk right into daze and then concede.

G2: I have no idea what happened in this game. I think he kept a really bad hand and I got a wasteland lock.

G3: This was a really really long game. He lead tundra pass, so I wastelanded it. He surgically extracted my Wastelands which I was glad to see as it doesn't do much. From there the game was a blur as I got Crucible online and found a Ghost Quarter. He had no basics in the deck so I alternated between recurring Mishra's Factories to chump his 11/11 kotr and GQing his stuff. A Karn eventually got the ball rolling and I made some constructs that ended the game.

M4: Maverick

G1: I think this was a game where I got out an early Smokestack but had to sacrifice it to itself because I didn't have a crucible and he had like KotR/Noble/BoP + a bunch of lands. From there I believe a Tabernacle saved me and possibly a bridge. I then used Buried Ruin to get back Smokestack and locked out the game from there.

Hey, Kaono. Nice 4-0! I was your Bant opponent on Monday, and those were some pretty interesting games. I didn't see much of your deck the first game, so I assumed you were on Bomberman, which you played recently, even though there were a couple of pieces, like Ghost Quarter, that wouldn't usually be in that deck. Thus, I sideboarded incorrectly. Game 2 I succumbed to Tabernacle after Crucible + Wasteland wrecked my lands. Game 3 was a game where you got out Smokestack but chose to let it go, probably because your life was so low. I was thinking your hand had to be full of 3-drops and 4-drops. I had a Knight, you had a Crucible, you had a Ratchet Bomb, I had a Pithing Needle naming Ratchet Bomb, and you had a Spellskite and Smokestack on 1. From the way you described your Game 1 of Round 4, you may be conflating that game with our Game 3 (although it's quite possible a similar situation came up in your Maverick round). Karn, Scion of Urza, which you went to 2 life to cast off an Ancient Tomb, definitely was the closer in Game 3. When I had the Birds of Paradise, I was hoping to use it to fly over with Exalted for the last points of damage, but I believe you cut it down with a Walking Ballista. I drew the Pridemage way too late, and Karn's constructs did work.

[cdnza]

Did you play the deck again this week, Kaono? I'm tempted to put together something resembling your list as I think I have everything except the bridges.

[cdnza]

Huh. I found a very similar 5-0 list on mtggoldfish but it doesn't get grouped at all because it doesn't have a single coloured card! Link for anyone interested: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/visual/1291243

[Kaono]

Did you play the deck again this week, Kaono? I'm tempted to put together something resembling your list as I think I have everything except the bridges.

Nope, the deck is kind of tiring to play so I took a break to see how many other decks I can jam Karn into.


Huh. I found a very similar 5-0 list on mtggoldfish but it doesn't get grouped at all because it doesn't have a single coloured card! Link for anyone interested: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/visual/1291243

A lot of interesting choices here, I'm not a fan of no manlands and the 4 Inventors' Fairs seem like they'd be awkward. The Serum Powders give it a more stompy-esque vibe, which does match the Trinisphere/Tanglewire plan. I wonder if the creator or someone who's played it will chime in and give us their insight.

[Dice_Box]

The guy who played it is often playing a Modern prison deck and is live in that Discord. If you want to ask him questions I can PM you a link.

[UncleStretchy]

I played a couple different Stax builds at legacy FNM over the last 2 weeks. Here are the lists and short tourney reports

Week 1:

4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
4x Mishras Factory
2x Drownyard Temple
1x Buried Ruin
1x Dunes of the Dead
1x Inventor's Fair

4x Mox Diamond
4x Smokestack
3x Tangle Wire
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Trinisphere
3x Ensnaring Bridge
3x Ratchet Bomb
1x Powder Keg
4x Crucible of Worlds

4x Lodestone Golem
2x Karn Scion of Urza

SB:
1x Ratchet Bomb
4x Surgical Extraction
2x Sorcerous Spyglass
1x Pithing Needle
2x Thorn of Amethyst
2x Thought-Knot Seer
1x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Zuran Orb

Matches: (these were from a couple weeks ago and are purely from memory, so individual game details are going to be minimal)

Round 1: Bye

Round 2: UR Delver (budget)
Won this match 2-0. Both games I stuck early chalice on 1, ate permanents with smokestack, and closed the game quickly with lodestone. Match felt pretty lopsided after chalice resolved. This opponent doesnt own FoW, so getting chalice online was pretty easy.

Round 3: Blue control (miracles of some sort?)
Lost this round 0-2 and didnt see much of my opponents deck. Both games were similar. I mulled heavily, he countered the first lock piece I went for, then immediately followed up with B2B. I scooped quick in both games, as I knew I wasnt ever resolving another spell.

Round 4: DnT
Won this match 2-0. game 1 I went T1 chalice, T2 lodestone, T3 Trinisphere. Game 2 was a little longer, but equally 1 sided. Ratchet bomb cleared his early vial and mom, then stack came down and ate the rest of his board. Karn closed the game out with my opponent on zero permanents.

I also got a bunch of games before/after the tourney against some other random decks. Deck feels like a blowout machine. None of the games (win or lose) were close at all. ensnaring bridge was really awkward, as it shuts down all my win cons. Losing to back to basics also felt really bad. there is enough of that card in my local meta (2-3 decks) that I dont feel like I can play a deck that has zero outs to it.


Week 2:

I made some changes this week to try and shore up some of the issues id had the week before. I decided on a flagstones package in the manabase as a way to give me game against B2B, and to create value engines with stack and/or crucible. With white in the deck I brought in Armageddon to help fight the decks with large numbers of basics.

List:
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Wasteland
4x Mishra's Factory
3x Flagstones of Trokair
5x Plains
1x Karakas

4x Mox Diamond
4x Smokestack
3x Tangle Wire
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Trinisphere
3x Ratchet Bomb
4x Crucible of Worlds
1x Sorcerous Spyglass

4x Lodestone Golem
2x Karn Scion

3x Armageddon

SB:
4x Surgical Extraction
3x Magus of the Tabernacle
1x Sorcerous Spyglass
1x Pithing Needle
1x Ratchet Bomb
2x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Seal of Cleansing
2x Sphere of Resistance

Round 1: vs Merfolk
Lost this round 0-2. I dont think this matchup is particularly bad, but I mulled to 5 in both games, and drew almost no action after my opening hand. Both games basically went the same way, with me slowing the game down with an early tangle wire, block+pumping with factorys to kill/trade with fish, and recurring the factory with crucible. I just needed to draw stack, ratchet bomb or karn sometime in the first part of the game and I think it turns heavily in my favor. Instead I had a lot of ancient tombs and wastelands with no way to really control his board and eventually got overrun by fish.

Round 2: vs DnT
Won 2-0 in a couple of blowout games. Early spyglass was huge both games (getting vial in g1 and stoneforge in g2), and combinations of smokestacks, lodestones and tangle wires made sure he never had any real offense. Both games ended with him on zero permanents.

Round 3: vs Nic Fit
Lost this round 2-1. Ive played this matchup a lot outside of events, and it feels pretty hard. Pernicious Deed is insane against me, and between all the lands from veteran explorer and all the clues from tireless tracker, tangle wire and smokestack have a hard time shutting down the opponents board. Pre-board its probably 75% in opponents favor. After board you can get much closer to 50% but it still feels slightly in their favor. G1 went as expected, I had lock pieces in play, but he managed to deed it all away and I never rebuilt. G2 he had double leyline of the void early, but I slowed him with chalice on 1. He eventually had to deed for 4, which cleared out the leylines but let me surgical deed so he couldnt recur it. After a replayed chalice on 1, Karn got there. G3 I had a good early game, with chalice on 1 and spyglass on deed, but we ended up flooding and he was able to rec sage the spyglass then deed my board before I drew into geddon or karn, either of which would effectively end the game.


Overall, the deck has the same issue as a lot of the non-blue decks in legacy. There are too many decks in legacy for every card to be good in every matchup, and without card selection tools, sometimes you just lose because you drew the wrong half of your deck. On the other hand, the power level of the effects in these decks are extremely high. I think Chalice is probably the highest impact card in Legacy right now, and the sol land manabase is really gross, so thats definitely the plan I want to be on, I just need to figure out how to mitigate the awkwards draws a bit

[Palacejailer]

Seems I am a few pages late to the Green Stax discussion. Hoping to revive it a bit. I already have the Mud stax built and I enjoy playing it. Here is my take on a green variant. I still need to trim one card to get to 60.
I also hate BLUE more that anything. Might add Gutteral Response to the SB.
I really think Exploration in the deck can be crazy but the nonbo with Chalive of the Void makes it only a 1 of.

Lands 26
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Dryad Arbor
6 Forests
5 Green Fetchlands

Artifacts 21
4x Mox Diamond 0
4x Smokestack 4
3x Tangle Wire 3
3x Crucible 3
3x Trinisphere 3
4x Chalice of the Void XX

Spells 4
4x Green Sun’s Zenith XG

Creatures 7
1x Azusa, Lost But Seking 2G
1x Ramanap Excavator 2G
2x Terravore 1GG
2x Tireless Tracker 2G
1x Slyvan Safekeeper G

Enchantments 1
1x Exploration

Planeswalker
2x Karn Scion of Urza 4

Sb
3x Choke 2G
1x Tsunami 3G
1x Miotic Slime 4G
2x Zuran Orb 2
1x Rec Sage 2G
4x Ensnaring Bridge 3
3x Faerie Macabre discard

[sdematt]

After getting back to the civilized world and with DRS gone, I definitely want to try sleeving up Stax. I played the deck pretty religiously previously, even buying into Dutch Stax, and then the Junk bug bit me, and I rode that train forever. However, I did play a GW version splashing Sylvan Learning Center, so I'd be interested in seeing it in today's meta.

The plan here, as it always was when I played the deck, was to play an absurd number of lock pieces, few win conditions, and get your tasty 50 minutes of Magic every 50 minute round.

4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Magus of the Tabernacle

4 Mox Diamond
4 Suppression Field
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Armageddon
2 Smokestack
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Sylvan Library
3 Crucible of Worlds
28

3 Wasteland
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Tabernacle
2 Savannah
3 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Windswept Heath
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Plains
26

3 Choke
2 Mirage Mirror
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Rest in Peace
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
3 Tireless Tracker

Notable emissions include Karn, Factories, etc.

My plan is to wreck havoc via Suppression Field and Thalia to slow development to a crawl. Coupled with Ghostly Prison and Tabernacles, that's a deep web of shit I don't want to see. Sure, Assassin's Trophy is seeing play to kill my Stack, but yet, I'd rather set Chalice to 2 and forget about it.

I found that when I was playing it before, Sylvan was nice. Playing Crystal Ball or other shit, was, well, shit. Horizon Canopy loop with Crucible isn't the greatest either. You don't have a ton of shuffles, but I'll take Mirri's Guile over nothing.

This was crafted over Saturday night hangouts, so I'll be starting to test when I can and post results, good or bad. Realistically, I just want my opponents to have a miserable time, whether I win or lose.

[non-inflammable]

Realistically, I just want my opponents to have a miserable time, whether I win or lose.

with your sentiments in mind, i'm playing this tonight


1 ghost quarter
4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
4 wasteland
4 plains
2 flagstones of trokair
2 inventors' fair
1 mishra's factory
1 buried ruin
1 karakas
1 the tabernacle at pendrell vale


4 mox diamond

3 armageddon

2 karn, scion of urza

4 smokestack
4 serum powder
3 sphere of resistance
1 trinisphere
3 tangle wire
4 ensnaring bridge
4 crucible of worlds
4 chalice of the void

1 circle of protection: red
1 containment priest
2 sorcerous spyglass
1 defense grid
2 surgical extraction
2 leyline of the void
3 ratchet bomb
3 magus of the tabernacle



EDIT: sadly, went 1-2 drop; too many free counterspells
lost 1-2 against grixis delver
won 2-0 against elves (tabernacle and SB magus were key)
lost 1-2 against U/R delver

the ratchet bombs and magus were the "most" used cards from the board
the white splash is acceptable but i'll go full MUD next event

pros: spheres of resistance were very very good, will do 4 next event
cons: needing a land to stabilize at 2 life and drawing ancient tomb

[forestfold]

Seems I am a few pages late to the Green Stax discussion.
...
I really think Exploration in the deck can be crazy but the nonbo with Chalive of the Void makes it only a 1 of.



It's GG, but you could try Gaea's Touch. Gives you a second forest-only land drop. Would have to significantly up your basic forest count to make it effective, but you can also cash it in for the mana you spent on it. Probably too slow, but figured i'd put it up there.

[ancestraltimewalker]

Hey guys!
I have been having a lot of fun with this deck- although I am sure it's not optimized and fringe. It plays pretty well, and I really love being able to draw cards with horzion and the explore a bunch of lands back- i love destroying lands.

The history is, I played lands, then pox, then stax-- and now i am at this place where I love them all and want to mix em haha

Feel like I need help tweaking the mana, the threats and some of the removal for cards like bloodmoon etc... any thoughts? Thanks for looking! (ps i am trying to play this in paper, so some of the choices are because i own the cards listed)

3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Buried Ruin
2 Ghostly Prison
4 Wasteland
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Plains
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Inventors' Fair
3 Exploration
1 Smokestack
4 Mox Diamond
4 City of Traitors
2 Armageddon
2 Ravages of War
3 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Horizon Canopy
3 Savannah
3 Ancient Tomb
1 Riftstone Portal
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Nether Void
1 Windswept Heath
1 Sylvan Library
1 Trinisphere
1 The Abyss
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Moat
2 Humility
1 Chains of Mephistopheles

3 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Helm of Obedience
1 Choke
1 Humility
1 Bitterblossom
1 Tireless Tracker
2 Abrupt Decay


30 lands

I even thought of trying to see if I could run a transformation sideboard and turn it into pox or angel stax or even dark depths combo after game 1 - but IDK

[bruizar]

Hey guys!
I have been having a lot of fun with this deck- although I am sure it's not optimized and fringe. It plays pretty well, and I really love being able to draw cards with horzion and the explore a bunch of lands back- i love destroying lands.

The history is, I played lands, then pox, then stax-- and now i am at this place where I love them all and want to mix em haha

Feel like I need help tweaking the mana, the threats and some of the removal for cards like bloodmoon etc... any thoughts? Thanks for looking! (ps i am trying to play this in paper, so some of the choices are because i own the cards listed)

3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Buried Ruin
2 Ghostly Prison
4 Wasteland
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Plains
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Inventors' Fair
3 Exploration
1 Smokestack
4 Mox Diamond
4 City of Traitors
2 Armageddon
2 Ravages of War
3 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Horizon Canopy
3 Savannah
3 Ancient Tomb
1 Riftstone Portal
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Nether Void
1 Windswept Heath
1 Sylvan Library
1 Trinisphere
1 The Abyss
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Moat
2 Humility
1 Chains of Mephistopheles

3 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Helm of Obedience
1 Choke
1 Humility
1 Bitterblossom
1 Tireless Tracker
2 Abrupt Decay


30 lands

I even thought of trying to see if I could run a transformation sideboard and turn it into pox or angel stax or even dark depths combo after game 1 - but IDK

Start with the mana base and mana curve and build the deck after you finish that. Now it's just a ragtag bunch of prison cards. It would be pretty funny to see you play Entomb for Riftstone Portal to get through Blood Moons, ancient tomb damage and general fixing, but that's probably not good enough since you could be entombing for a reanimator creature...

[bruizar]

This is my first attempt at making a Stax list with War of the Spark out. I'm not sure if this is the way it should be built, but it is the way I'd like to try it for now. Comments are very welcome.

SparkStax

[25 land]
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Karn’s Bastion
3 Blast Zone
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
3 Vesuva
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors

[35]
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Defense Grid
4 Serum Powder
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Tangle Wire
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Helm of Obedience
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Karn, the Great Creator
2 Ugin, the Ineffable
3 Liquimetal Coating
2 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Contagion Engine

SB 15:
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Liquimetal Coating
1 Spellskite
1 Contagion Engine
1 Serrated Arrows
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Zuran Orb
2 Trinisphere


I'm aware of the fact that hardcasting Leyline only works with an Urborg out. That's a concession I was willing to make. It is the only untapped land that adds BB besides Phyrexian Tower. I might up them to 3, but don't want too many due to the legendary rule. The idea is to Serum Powder into it anyway.

Some points:
Crucible + Blast Zone lock
Helmline with Karn to grab one out of the sideboard
Liquimetal Coating with Karn Silver Golem and Karn the Great Creator for strip lock

[Airwave]

I'm searching for the right thread for my list, maybe this is the place.

Coming from MUD-topic:


Playing only one City of Traitors seems bad IMO. You still want to put in play asap Chalice/Grim/Trinisphere, and with only 5 sol lands, probs are not that high.
Plus, it allows you to play Karn on turn 2 more often.
I'd swap some Karn Scion for TKS too.

I'm testing a more prison shell around Karn Creator although the list is similar, but hey, can we start another thread to not pollute this one ?

Completely agree on the lack of City's there, I'm playing four in my list and I feel they are really important to get to four mana soon.

This is the list I'm working with at the moment.

4x Karn, Scion of Urza
4x Karn, the Great Creator
2x Ugin, the Ineffable
4x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

2x Walking Ballista

4x Chalice of the Void
3x Trinisphere
3x Ensnaring Bridge

4x Grim Monolith
2x Mox Diamond
2x Thran Dynamo

4x Ancient Tomb
2x Blast Zone
4x City of Traitors
4x Cloudpost
4x Glimmerpost
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3x Vesuva
2x Wasteland
2x Maze of Ith

Sideboard

1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Meekstone
1x Mycosynth Lattice
1x Ratchet Bomb
1x Sorcerous Spyglass
1x Tormod’s Crypt
1x Torpor Orb
1x Voltaic Key
1x Lodestone Golem
1x Spellskite
1x Walking Ballista
1x Wurmcoil Engine
3x Warping Wail


Feels strong with some "free wins" due to hate cards, but of course it has it's weak spots, Back to Basics from Miracles is always difficult, Goblins has a lot of artifact hate + fast clock, etc. etc.

Since there's no Smokestack or Tangle Wire in the list, I'm not 100% sure this is the right place, let me know if it's out of line then I'll start a new topic with a fancy Karn-name or something :wink:

I started testing with 4 Blast Zone by the way but that seemed to much. Blast Zone needs time/mana to work which sometimes is no problem, but sometimes it is. I changed two of them for the fourth City and one Urborg (which is nice with Maze of Ith)

Any advice is welcome!

[LoveAndLockPieces]

Re: the deck above, it seems stax-y enough to talk about here. And I'm cool with that, just to have some more discussion in here. Cross-pollination.
On the other hand, I think it's closest lineage is the Eldrazi Post deck. Which has a thread around somewhere. Similar posts and planeswalkers decks are at least getting mentioned there, too.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30484-Primer-Eldrazi-Post-%96-Colorless-Eldrazi-Ramp/page16

...

Have also tried updating recent Stax lists I have seen to incorporate the new Karn. After a bit of testing, I am at this:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
3 Inventors' Fair
1 Dunes of the Dead
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 basic land, your choice

4 Mox Diamond
4 Serum Powder

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
2 Tangle Wire
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Smokestack

4 Karn, Scion of Urza
4 Karn, the Great Creator
2 Ugin, the Ineffable

SB
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Ratchet Bomb
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Wurmcoil Engine

...

Notes

Dunes, Gemstone Caverns, Urborg, and the basic should be seen as flex slots in the land base. I could really see wanting the fourth Port over any of those. Could also see going down to 25 lands. I started with 24, looking at past Serum Powder lists where you're really hoping that Powder fixes your opener and you topdeck gas. But here I'd like to get to six mana and was having some trouble with only 24. My sample size surely isn't enough, but having better results with more than 24. If I dropped a land I'd probably put the 3rd Tangle Wire back in.

Serum Powder is here until the London Mulligan comes back. Not sure if it stays after that, but I don't know what else I would put in over those slots. The boost to opening hand consistency is really nice and the mana rock comes in handy more often than it's dead. Worst case anymore, it fuels Karn constructs or gets animated by the Great Creator.

Trinisphere gets the nod over Spheres as I don't want to increase the cost of my own walkers.

Went down to three Cruicible and Smokestack to have wishable copies in the board. But haven't found myself wanting to grab Smokestack from the board, so it got trimmed. Have wished for Crucible a couple times, for insurance against mana destruction decks like Pox. If I can keep lands in play there, I'll win eventually. Happy with three of each in the main.

Eight Karns give the deck several proactive game plans in addition to winning via Soot counters. Things feel a bit congested at the four cmc slot. And sometimes you're stuck short of being able to cast any of them. It's been bad behind a Bridge. On the upside, sometimes you start casting haymakers on turn two and don't stop.

Ugin hasn't come up too much, yet. But it seems really solid here. Once it's in play, you can probably cast Karn and Lattice on the following turn. Or feed the Spirit tokens to fuel Smokestack. Have also tried God-Pharaoh's Statue. Which seemed really cool at first, but I totally overlooked the Legendary part. And had fun throwing away a game I could have won by casting a second Statue. These, too, could easily be considered flex slots. Keeping them for now, though.

On the sideboard, I didn't start out with the LED. But I found myself wanting it available after playing the Bomberman shell and having access to it there. It gives you a really solid shot at curving from Karn into Lattice the following turn. Can play it immediately so it won't be hit with discard. And can get handsize down for Bridge. With Crypt, Bridge, and Ratchet Bomb I'm usually leaving one in the side to wish for and bringing in two copies. If other Karn decks continue to put up the same percentages online and in my local meta, pretty sure I want to fit Null Rod into the board. Which feels pretty nutty.

I've had pretty good results facing down non-Karn decks. And less than stellar when facing down other Karn decks. I think that my performance there is getting better over time though. As I understand the match up more. Like, Karn Post is still a Post deck. Stax can lean hard on the Cruicible+Waste lock to make sure they never get into the game. And we may have a better shot at landing Karn on turn two. Comes down to how the hands line up.

I haven't tried Blast Zone yet.

Kinda want to run the Karn proliferate land with four Tangle Wire to keep things tapped down indefinately.

Really enjoying this take on Stax. There's a lot raw power between the two Karns and lots of on-board interactions to manage.

...

Coming back to the thread, I notice that I have arrived at some similarities to Bruizar's list. Now that I've actually played with the cards. Which is interesting to me, as I didn't really get it before. Still not convinced that the Leyline and Helm combo is worth the space. But bringing Tangle Wire back I can really get behind.

...

[forestfold]

Eight Karns give the deck several proactive game plans in addition to winning via Soot counters. Things feel a bit congested at the four cmc slot. And sometimes you're stuck short of being able to cast any of them. It's been bad behind a Bridge. On the upside, sometimes you start casting haymakers on turn two and don't stop.

Trading Post in your wish board is a great way to get rid of artifacts for value. It lets you recycle a lot of your deck if you buy yourself enough time. Karn's Bastion + Tangle Wire sounds hilarious, I hope that works out.

[ChristoferV]

I recently played this deck to top8 a tournament in Stockholm!
It was a lot of fun and I’ve made changes since this top8. Most important change was swapping an ensnaring bridge with a ballista in the sideboard!

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=21948&d=347958&f=LE

[LoveAndLockPieces]

So, Wrenn and Six seems to be the latest flavor of Legacy. So how about Wrenn and Stax?

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2028107 - Here's a spicy 5-0 list from EryngaLv2.

I have been trying out 3 W6 in place of the maindeck Crucibles in basically the same list I posted a few messages up. Changing the manabase accordingly, too. Wrenn nicely answers Thalia, Dryad Arbor, and unflipped Delvers. Can double up activation to ice a Teeg or flipped Delver. It feels bad doing so, but sometimes it needs to be done. Splashing RG opens up Choke from the board and makes Engineered Explosives really fun. With this many 'walkers, the Karn, Scion's contructs have been pretty weak. Probably going to rethink having four of those.

The deck feels good, but my results have been poor so far. Would chalk some of that up to variance and me being bad, so far. Not ready to throw in the towel on this idea yet.

(Like, I lost to Storm? That felt really bad! But my opponent just went off turn one in two out of three games. Sometimes that just happens...)