[Deck]BUx Reanimator

[Omega87]

I play Grave Titan in my Sideboard, for match-ups with Liliana (BUG). Usually one Griselbrand does the exchange then, but maybe some more experienced players can tell better.
Didn't like Tidespout Tyrant too much, so i cut it for Ashen Rider in the maindeck, to beat Karakas (not legendary).

[PirateKing]

I play Grave Titan in my Sideboard, for match-ups with Liliana (BUG). Usually one Griselbrand does the exchange then, but maybe some more experienced players can tell better.
Didn't like Tidespout Tyrant too much, so i cut it for Ashen Rider in the maindeck, to beat Karakas (not legendary).

I main Grave Titan for the above stated reasons, quality against Liliana and Small Pox :laugh:. It's also a quality racer, 10 damage is our fastest clock, 6 life is our shallowest hit, and it can swing all in and leave guys behind for the return swing. I've won a game 3 that started in turns off Grave Titan, three turns isn't enough to win off Griselbrand. I guess fringe-castable is a plus, especially lists packing sol lands. It basically serves the same spot as Inkwell Leviathan, as the big dumb guy with power and evasion that just gets there. Depending on the meta, you could main one and side the other, which is what I do.

[Rood]

Just got back from SCG. Rockin the mono black splash green reanimator list I've been working on

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Swamp (1)
4 [JGC] Bloodstained Mire
4 [RS] Bayou
3 [JGC] Wasteland
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs

// Creatures
4 [AVR] Griselbrand
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 [NPH] Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 [THS] Ashen Rider

// Spells
4 [US] Exhume
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [TE] Dark Ritual
4 [7E] Duress
4 [PD3] Reanimate
4 [PD3] Entomb
3 [R] Animate Dead

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [M10] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [DGM] Sire of Insanity
SB: 3 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 4 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 [CFX] Inkwell Leviathan
SB: 1 [THS] Ashen Rider

went 6-3 overall out of 9 rounds. Pretty bad that I lost one of my rounds to a game loss for handing in my decklist a few mins late.

2-0 Pox
0-2 BUG (game loss)
2-0 Burn
2-1 RUG
0-2 Miracle (Savage topdeckz)
2-0 Manaless Ichorid
0-2 BUG
2-0 Elves

So a few thoughts,

This deck is absolutely awesome and fun to play. I'll definetally be doing a lot more testing to see how the mono black has been working for me. I think I need more testing in the BUG matchup to determine if it's actually bad or not yet.

[Omega87]

How was your game against miracles? i mean, you play abrupt decays? And against BUG you should play grave titan, especially with dark rituals to cast it. Did you spend some thoughts about playing liliana, could be nice too?!

[Rood]

How was your game against miracles? i mean, you play abrupt decays? And against BUG you should play grave titan, especially with dark rituals to cast it. Did you spend some thoughts about playing liliana, could be nice too?!

The miracle matchup I drew 14 cards and didn't find a single duress effect to discard the jace sitting in his hand on a crucial turn. I got very unlucky in that round. I agree Grave Titan should be considered but not maindeck-worthy...I will definitely I think sideboard one however. I thought about Lilliana...IDK if she's too slow to play here or not.

[Omega87]

In the standard build liliana is definatly too slow, but with dark rit first turn very powerful!
Ok the match against miracles was very unlucky...
I play 14 lands in UB reanimator, with 8 creatures, one is grave titan, because every idiot plays BUG at the moment...

[Rood]

Top 8'd the most recent DHG dual land tournament. Went X-1-1 ID my last round. My only loss in swiss was to Miracles. Terrible matchup much?
Anyways, here's the list.

// Lands
5 [ZEN] Swamp (1)
4 [JGC] Bloodstained Mire
2 [RS] Bayou
1 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [JGC] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [AVR] Griselbrand
1 [THS] Ashen Rider
1 [NPH] Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria

// Spells
4 [US] Exhume
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [TE] Dark Ritual
4 [PD3] Reanimate
4 [PD3] Entomb
4 [R] Animate Dead
4 [V09] Lotus Petal
3 [MM] Unmask
1 [FNM] Duress

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [M10] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [DGM] Sire of Insanity
SB: 4 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 4 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 [CFX] Inkwell Leviathan


Couldn't find the 4th Unmask for the maindeck so had to roll a 3/1 split. Matchups

2-0 Elves
2-1 UG Infect
2-0 RUG
2-0 BUG
0-2 Miracles (drew karakas game 1 in opening 7 ;( )
ID

Top 8: 1-2 RUG
Shitty part about game 3 is I literally hadn't really needed to mull the entire tournament but had to mull to 4 in g3. Still almost got there too. LOL, anyways cheers fellow reanimator players.

-Rood

[Kaono]

Took down a local tournament going 4-0 today (no top 8) and winning $200 in store credit (finishing off my trops FINALLY). We live in a sort-of remote area so there were only 9 people out today which meant 4 round Swiss and no top 8, but Legacy is alive and well out here with most people playing pretty competitive decks.

List:

// 14 land (need deltas)
4 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs

// 8 creatures
4 Griselbrand
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Grave Titan

// 4 artifacts
4 Lotus Petal

// 15 instants
4 Entomb
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze

// 19 sorcery
4 Careful Study
4 Reanimate
2 Thoughtseize
3 Ponder
3 Exhume
2 Show and Tell
1 Animate Dead

// Sideboard
2 Show and Tell
1 Ashen Rider
1 Inkwell Leviathan
3 Pithing Needle
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Massacre
2 Ancient Tomb (should be City of Traitors)
2 Thoughtseize

Tournament Report:

Round 1:

Joe playing Sneak & Show:

G1 - Had turn 2 Entomb into Reanimate Grisel, drew 7, beat down and Forced his Show & Tells along the way -- nothing too special, just average g1 walk in the park.

G2 - Kept hand with petal reanimate thoughtseize gris force storm and pithing needle, he played land passed, I drew iona, played nothing, and pitched grisel EOT hoping to peel a land to go seize into reanimate. Unfortunately, I never drew another land and eventually just died to one Emrakul (annihilating my 0 permanents) followed by 2nd off sneak attack -- i tried needling sneak at one point but he pierced and had graf anyway which thankfully let me know what hate he was on (though I have 0 outs to that other than show).

g3- This game was INSANE -- He went t1 cage which I forced, then I EOT Entombed for Gris with Exhume in hand -- he played t2 cage which i had no outs to, so we went draw go for about 15 turns -- in the meanwhile I Needled Sneak (which I later found out was the turn before he drew his 4th land) then with 3 minutes left on the round clock I sculpted my hand to get as much mana as possible -- with time called in the round I had 4 sea, island swamp and tomb. Turn 1 of extra turns I put down 3 lotus petals and then HARDCAST Iona with 0 countermagic backup and he had....... nothing! Iona resolved, I named blue. Next turn (turn 3 of extra turns) I cast a Griselbrand and swung with Iona, putting him to 7. Next turn (last turn of extra turns) I killed him -- he dropped his hand showing 2 Emrakul, Giselbrand, Sneak Attack X3 and Misdirection ... really dodged a bullet there.

Round 2:

David playing UWR Delver

G1 - He had t1 delver, so I drew for the turn and discarded Elesh Norn. After getting hit for 3 I Reanimated Norn and went down to 10 life to take out the flying insect -- He had flipped Delver with swords but I knew I had to put that part of the game behind me while wiping his board so went for it -- at 14 after swords he dropped SFM, TNN and searched a batterskull -- great -- drew nothing else relevant and died -- mistake was made in this game where I entombed EOT when I should've drawn the Show & Tell that was on top of library as extra insurance as I had a Gris in hand.

G2 - On the play, first turn Pondered into nothing relevant (searching for a Force as I had Entomb Reanimate in hand), shuffled and drew a Bstorm -- EOT I entombed for Griselbrand to draw out countermagic and he had no responses -- Next draw I peel Ancient Tomb off the top, cast Show & Tell, and am a little surprised he lets it resolve as it was my counter-bait, he lets it resolve and puts down RIP (clearing Gris) to my Inkwell Leviathan (LOL) -- he reads the textbox, and concedes telling me he has 0 outs in his 75.

G3 - He leads T1 delver and I lead T1 Thoughtseize him, taking Swords -- he had SFM ponder Bstorm land land -- upkeep he Bstorms and flips Delver, attacking me down to 14 -- I EOT entomb an Iona and next turn Reanimate it, putting me to 5 life -- naming white to shut off SFM. He must've brainstormed away his ponder as he just passed the turn back immediately with his Delver staring down my 7/7. I was fearing bolt but had a Force in hand and didn't see myself winning if I didn't take the aggressive line. Next turn I Entomb -> Exhume an Elesh Norn and he concedes showing Swords Swords SFM in hand. Turns out he sided out all his bolts vs me, something I told him he probably shouldn't do.

Round 3:

Zach playing Alluren

Note: Wow, what a fun deck -- this guy really just loves Legacy and was a blast to play against. It's nice to see passionate folk keeping archtypes alive and he was doing fine at 2-0.

G1: Turn two Entomb Reanimate Griselbrand got there drawing 21 cards over the course of the game while he didn't really do anything (played 2 fetchlands...). I say this a lot about my G1s but really they're just that easy. If you're not winning G1 you're playing Reanimator wrong! I'll make a mental note to take pictures of my opening hands as mulliganing is probably the hardest part about G1.

g2: I T1 Thoughtseized myself and put a Griselbrand in the yard, fetching Swamp rather than Usea since I only had one land in hand fearing Wasteland -- this ended up being a very bad move as he Forced my Reanimate leaving me looking for any blue source for the rest of the game. He brought the beats with Baleful Strix and Cavern Harpy while I sat helpless drawing Bstorm and Show & Tell. I eventually found a petal to cast Show, putting down a Gris vs his Alluren, and immediately drew down to 2 life. Stupid me forget he plays Parasitic Strix, so despite me being able to reanimate Elesh next turn he drops Imperial Recruiter to find Parasitic Strix to kill me -- stupid play on my part now knowing rogue deck.

g3: Went as normal, T2 Entomb Reanimate Griselbrand, drew 7, t3 Elesh Norn while he basically did nothing.

Round 4:

Grady playing Zombardment

Note: Surprised to see this deck in the Finals, but then again Drew Levin knows Cabal Therapy + Bloodghast is nothing to be trifled with. I've tested with this guy before so know if I can avoid his copious discard I'll probably be OK.

G1: He had t1 Deathrite Shaman which scared me, but I came to find out (at end of game) he accidentally forgot to put a Bayou in his deck -- yeah... that happened. He dropped a turn 2 Liliana of the Veil and +1d, him pitching souls to my Griselbrand. Next turn I Exhumed and drew 14 to find.... nothing relevant whatsoever... a bunch of careful studies and ponders and land -- 0 petals 0 entombs so couldn't do anything degenerate that turn. He then -2'd Lili to take out my Gris and cast Young Pyromancer. His only mana up was DRS so I decided to Daze the YP assuming he would drop a green source for DRS (which later I found out didn't matter) -- this was probably an OK play as in any normal game I would've wanted him to lock down the DRS so I could get to my GY but in this specific instance I probably should've just FoW'd because it set me back a land drop that almost lost me the game (see the Bstorm I did that won me the game, if I didn't hit Petal it was lights out). Next turn I Careful Studied away an Iona and a Grave Titan and Animate Dead'd the Titan to get some blockers (he had a DRS, Young Pyromancer and like 2 elementals from casting some Faithless Lootings) -- next turn he -2d the Lili again, binning her, with me saccing a zombie, then Innocent Blooded and took out another zombie, then fb'd souls with me at 5 life -- this was a pretty big decision moment for me as I had to decide whether or not I could survive the token swing with my Titan + Zombie token. He had YP + 2 Elementals, if I Forced he would have had 3 Elementals + YP to my 3 blockers, vs 2 Elementals + YP to my 2 Blockers. I eventually decided to let that resolve and hold up the Force for something more relevant. In retrospect (and during the game) I figured not Forcing the Souls flashback was a bad move as it essentially put me dead on board, but if I remember correctly I would've had to pitch Bstorm so I held off -- next turn I cast Bstorm and hit perfect -- Entomb, petal, exhume (had Sea Island Sea (tapped from BS)), went entomb, petal exhumed Elesh Norn, gg.

G2: Starting hand Exhume x2, Entomb, Reanimate, Ponder, land land -- he entombed for Cabal Therapy turn 1, I went land go, next turn he cast Faithless Looting, pitched 2 Bloodghasts, then went land tThoughtseize. In response I Entombed for Gris, so he took my Reanimate, and FB'd Therapy to snag my 2 Exhumes. Luck has it I topdecked a Reanimate, and went to 11 to get Gris in, thought for a bit before cracking strand to go to 10 (enabling Bloodghast haste) to cast Ponder (I did this to search for Force and clear the top 3 if it was garbage) shuffled off Ponder and drew Ancient Tomb, passed turn at 10 life. He casts Innocent Blood during his turn (and has land to bring back Ghast, or so I assumed). This was a tough decision, if I let it resolve he swings for 4 putting me to 6 with nothing but Show & Tell in hand and the top of my deck -- however if I draw 7 and miss on FoW I'm just dead -- I figured I'd be dead anyway if I let it resolve as I would only have 3 turns to find anything and didn't have any drew spells, so I take the winning aggressive line and draw 7, get there and Force the Innocent Blood! His followup is to Loot away some garbage. Next turn I bash and pass at a healthy 9, he has nothing else, attacks me to 5, then I exhume an Elesh and put the game away.

Thoughts: My list is pretty aggressive so I took lines accordingly. I felt like I got pretty lucky to win, particularly in the r4 and r1 vs Sneak, but I also think that that goes with the territory of Reanimator and combo in general -- just shove and hope they don't have it.

I don't think I Dazed a relevant spell all game, so I don't know if they're any good... I wanted to try them despite them falling out of favor recently just because I didn't like only relying on the 4 FoW as protection. I didn't get a T1 combo all day which sucked so that made me think countermagic is all the more necessary especially when you're going for it vs their open mana.

I liked the 2/2 main/sb split with Thoughtseize. I was testing with all 4 in the main that Cucunato ran but wasn't feeling it. Thoughtseizing myself to put a monster in the yard was cute but always felt a little bad. I enjoyed being on the draw and pitching a fatty EOT and that took a lot of people offguard. I tried to find an Empyrial Archangel from the store last minute but didn't find one. Almost switched out Inkwell Leviathan for Blazing Archon for the S&S matchup but am happy I stuck with Leviathan as it won me the UWR Delver match.

All-in-all it's a very fun deck to play and was a great respite from my usual Esper Deathblade grind -- I think I'll continue to test and switch between the two to keep my meta on its toes.

[Rood]

Anyone else finding Iona extremely crappy? I want to play a Sire of Insanity over her I think. Just gets owned by Karakas and doesnt seem worthwhile anymore.

[Souleater734]

Is there another thread for the burning reanimator deck here or do people just discuss both versions in this thread?

[Bobmans]

Is there another thread for the burning reanimator deck here or do people just discuss both versions in this thread?

This what you are looking for?
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28206-Burning-Reanimator

[Souleater734]

Thanks

[Chimera87]

Went 3-0-2 (2 IDs, 6-0 in games) yesterday to make top 8. Beat a innovative Bant StoneCascade deck with 2-1 to split the top4 prizes.

Swiss Matches:
2-0 Miracles
2-0 Elves!
2-0 Miracles

Used the following list:


Land (14)
3x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
2x Marsh Flats
3x Underground Sea
1x Island
1x Swamp

Instant (13)
4x Brainstorm
4x Entomb
1x Daze
4x Force of Will

Enchantment (1)
1x Animate Dead

Sorcery (21)
4x Ponder
4x Careful Study
4x Reanimate
3x Thoughtseize
4x Exhume
2x Show and Tell

Creature (7)
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Ashen Rider
3x Griselbrand
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Inkwell Leviathan

Artifact (4)
4x Lotus Petal

Sideboard (15)
2x City of Traitors
1x Engineered Explosives
3x Pithing Needle
1x Thoughtseize
1x Echoing Truth
2x Show and Tell
1x Massacre
1x Grave Titan
3x Pack Rat


Deck worked like a charm.

[Kaono]

Went 3-0-2 (2 IDs, 6-0 in games) yesterday to make top 8. Beat a innovative Bant StoneCascade deck with 2-1 to split the top4 prizes.

Swiss Matches:
2-0 Miracles
2-0 Elves!
2-0 Miracles

Used the following list:


Deck worked like a charm.

What advice do you have for beating miracles? Did you know the meta going in and did that have an impact on what fatties you main boarded?

[Chimera87]

I beat Miracles in this case by sheer speed. Game ones were won on the back of him tapping out and not having FoW. Game two was won in both cases by a non-properly answered SnT (FoW backup or seize). Pack Rat was my backup plan and engine if need be.

The meta here is a lot of Miracles, BUG Tempo and UWR DelverBlade. Combo is making a return slowly. The only other reanimator player also went top 8 (after picking the deck up in the morning, lol). I chose to maindeck the Inkwel now in stead of Grave Titan as I expected less Liliana's. Deathrite really doesn't matter for this deck either. Ashen Rider was a concession to Miracles (Karakas) and SnT.

[Elfkid]

Hi there, I was readding the last pages and I have a important question, is JTMS necesary on the SB? Obv is good vs miracles and other control matchups but I prefer (As one member said) the Pack Rat in SB It seems so good vs miracles (If we protect it obv)

Thanks and regards!^^

[Professor_Awesome]

Anyone else finding Iona extremely crappy? I want to play a Sire of Insanity over her I think. Just gets owned by Karakas and doesnt seem worthwhile anymore.

Same, she's very underwhelming in what used to be her main role: naming white. Now she's relegated to beating combo decks, tribal decks, and burn, which I'm okay with. She's sided out every other match, sure, but that's no reason to trash her.


Hi there, I was readding the last pages and I have a important question, is JTMS necesary on the SB? Obv is good vs miracles and other control matchups but I prefer (As one member said) the Pack Rat in SB It seems so good vs miracles (If we protect it obv)

Thanks and regards!^^

By the time I can cast Jace, miracles has long since built it's entire control castle and is just running the clock out. I had to look pack rat up, tbh. It's a tiny guy that makes one tiny guy a turn by discarding cards? Vs 4 terminus 2-3 swords 2-3 council's judgment 1-2 supreme verdict counter balance top and 3 jace? What wizardry is this and give me your miracles opponents plz.
--

Anyway I'm back from a 6 month hiatus from magic due to work, played in an scg and went x-3 plus some good runs at local stuff, getting back in the swing of things. Apparently they printed some 3/1 fish that's immune to everyone who's playing fair (whatever, it means less cliques and more stoneforges, so I'm down with that), a mono white vindicate that blanks shroud creatures and rockets our worst two matchups (DnT, Miracles) to the top tier, and legacy is effin' saturated in karakas.

If anyone cares, here's the current list:

Silver Bullet Reanimator

Mana: 19
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Island
2 Swamp
4 Lotus Petal

Targets: 8
1 Griselbrand
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Grave Titan
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

Combo: 11
2 Show and Tell
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
1 Animate Dead

Protection: 7
4 Force of Will
3 Daze

Draw/Tutor: 15
4 Entomb
4 Careful Study
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder


SB: 15
3 Dark Ritual
2 Flusterstorm
2 Thoughtseize
2 Misdirection
2 Echoing Truth
2 Massacre
1 Show and Tell
1 City of Traitors

I dropped the red splash that treated me so well in Milwaukee last year as probably too cute. Izzet Charm is good, but less so in current meta. Young Pyro side was cool against control, though.

Answers to some of the more obvious questions:
Only 1 Griselbrand? - playing the deck since he was printed the numbers main went 4...3...2............1. The # of him I play main is indirectly proportional to the number of karakas in the meta. Anecdotally, he just never stays out. He's the best ever vs tempo and people who don't "have it" - my opponents always seem the "have it", so I go for silver bullets instead. I don't see much sneak and show either, which he's great against.
Jin-Gitaxis, really? - Yes, I never got off this train, he's amazing. Dat turn 1. Later game, you very often need a new hand and can't afford to pay life to do it. Pet card alert**
Grave Titan main? - grindy-ass game 1s are where this idiot shines. good vs lili. Hardcast him plenty of times vs control, especially with rits out of side. 10 damage, too, he actually kills people.
Empyrael Archangel - she's good again, in this meta, in my opinion. Good defense if Legends/Titan isn't an option.
Dark Rit side? - Sometimes you have to prove you're the combo deck. Like vs fair decks and miracles where letting them have a turn 2 means a long boring loss. And vs other combo. Man, why aren't these main again?
No Ashen Rider - Tested a lot, same problem as the angel of despair, just isn't good enough. It's not even that great vs show and tell, as they almost never cast SnT proper, it's a 1-of that has to be in your hand, and they run cliques. If I still ran 3 griselbrand this is where I'd mention that he's better to have in hand than rider anyway.

[Stryfo]

Pack rat kills in 4 turns (if you're aggressive and go 2->6->12=20) counting the turn you play it, is harder to counter than our other spells, doesn't care about grave hate, and doesn't require that you commit many cards to make his clock fast, plus you get to choose which cards to commit, and he has the benefit of spot removal being bad against him unless used immediately. In addition, the most successful miracles players in my meta all board out several terminus and swords to plowshares against reanimator (not against me anymore after they got pack ratted once) since once a reanimation spell resolves, those cards don't do as much, their goal becomes to stop the combo, not deal with us after we go off.

I'm not saying Pack Rat is awesome, though I have been loving it, I'm saying that your analysis of it doesn't make much sense to me in the context of the matchup.


It's also not surprising that you're having problems with karakas since you're running 0 pithing needles in your 75. I'm really curious as to why you're not running it since in my experience it is an all-star in so many matchups, could you explain your reasoning?


Have you really found it necessary to run both inkwell and empyrial? In my experience they fill the same role. Finally, I am also a lover of Jin-Gitaxias, the mindtwist is severely underrated, as is 10 life to draw 7 rather than 15.

[Specksynder]

I'm running the standard list right now but was wondering if anyone has tried out Abrupt Decay in the side board? I was thinking maybe -

MAINBOARD
-1 island
-1 swamp
+1 Bayou
+1 Tropical Island

SIDE BOARD
+3 Abrupt Decay

It seems to fight through a ton of hate including Counter Balance and Chalice of the Void. It also takes out Rest in Piece, GD Cage, Lilly, and darn near everything else that can stop us.

Anyone try this yet?

[Rood]

My list plays with 4 in the board. It's by far the best card we can bring in from the side.

[HammafistRoob]

Same, she's very underwhelming in what used to be her main role: naming white. Now she's relegated to beating combo decks, tribal decks, and burn, which I'm okay with. She's sided out every other match, sure, but that's no reason to trash her.

Against burn you just cave them in with a 7/7 flying lifelinker. Against tribal decks Elesh Norn is far better, and against combo Griselbrand is perfectly fine. I honestly don't see a need for her anymore.

[Rood]

Also just throwing this out there but Sire beats both Combo and burn as well. Pretty hard.

[Specksynder]

I still like Iona. Against UW she shuts off their W removal and you should have a Peedle to deal with Karakas. I also like having a way to deal with High Tide and another option to shut down Elves. Pretty much anything deals with Burn and I think its a favorable match up any way.

[th3 w1z4rd]

I'm running the standard list right now but was wondering if anyone has tried out Abrupt Decay in the side board? I was thinking maybe -

MAINBOARD
-1 island
-1 swamp
+1 Bayou
+1 Tropical Island

SIDE BOARD
+3 Abrupt Decay

It seems to fight through a ton of hate including Counter Balance and Chalice of the Void. It also takes out Rest in Piece, GD Cage, Lilly, and darn near everything else that can stop us.

Anyone try this yet?

I thought of this long ago and was doing it before anyone else, with a Trop and Bayou main. The only thing that sucks is if one of those is your only land in your opener. But Decay is so worth it against every grave hate permanent not named Leyline of the Void.

[jcsy]

I thought of this long ago and was doing it before anyone else, with a Trop and Bayou main. The only thing that sucks is if one of those is your only land in your opener. But Decay is so worth it against every grave hate permanent not named Leyline of the Void.

felt that fighting thru hate slows us down but instead, speeding through hate might be a better option?

i always felt fighting hate with nature's claim (4 life) and abrupt decay, seems sluggish not to mention our slow down from Show and Tell

[Worldslayer]

Throwing a few thoughts out there now that I've picked the deck back up for a few weeks -

I've cut Iona for Sire and haven't looked back. Last Wednesday at the LGS he took down four of my five wins almost singlehandedly (DnT, burn x2, bug). At the SCG invitational he also singlehandedly KOd at least a sneak attack and miracles player. The Karakas decks usually try to sand bag it so we burn resources into griselbrand, and the sidestep into a six four mind twist is incredible. He is my new favorite weapon in reanimator.

The Green board - pretty sure most of us have come to this conclusion at least once. Cage, crypt, spell bomb, rest in peace, deathrite shaman - all nixed by abrupt decay. What I've found is that so does our Show and Tell plan, though, and without weakening our mana base further. I run four basics, and being able to cast all of my spells without opening up to wasteland against the soft counter decks like RUG is huge. The cost isn't worth the benefit as far as I can tell. The one exception might be the cages out of Sneak and Show now that it's common for them to run that again, but usually bringing the tombs and needles in and just attempting to hard cast our guys works. Haven't found a better solution to that specific problem yet, though I'm working in it as cage turns one of our easiest matches into a rather difficult one.

Updates on matches - been playing with the Sire in the Daze shell, and honestly I feel as if miracles and death and taxes are no longer things I mind (inkwell from the board helps, though Aetherling has also done pretty well for me). Blade remains the most irritating thing depending on their draw, but DnT and Miracles are no longer issues with practice, an early Sire, and Pithing Needle. If it wasn't for the blue count for FoW I might actually just main the needles - so mono black players, has anyone tried this? I seem to side them in in almost every matchup.

Also, I still hate Tidespout. I'm running him for blue, but egh. The occasional synergy with Sire does happen, though.



Tl;Dr - sire is the stone cold nuts right now, the green sideboard doesn't work because as a deck were much better at being proactive, has anyone in the mono black builds tried main deck needle, DnT's resurgence has so far made my life easier, not harder. That deck is NOT maverick.

Good to be back, guys. #yolo

[Rood]

Abrupt Decay and Sire of Insanity are this decks future. I am running 1 Sire with 2 in the board for the combo MUs. Decay is the stone cold nuts against basically...everything.

[kingsey]

So sire is better then iona vs what match ups storm?

[th3 w1z4rd]

Decay is infinitely better against Delver decks than Show and Tell. Good luck getting SnT to resolve against Force of Will, Spell Pierce, Daze, and red blasts. If you Decay their piece of grave hate eot, then go for reanimation, that's much better against soft counters than throwing SnT out there. Plus Show and Tell is usually a bad idea against Sneak and Show, Omnitell, and anything else that can just drop something to make life miserable. Imagine dropping a Griselbrand against DnT, having them drop Spirit of the Labyrinth and then Swordsíng your demon. Ew. Decay can also kill Counterbalance, Liliana of the Veil, Ensnaring Bridge, Chalice of the Void, and many other annoying things. Relevant. You can't assume you'll always have turn 1 or 2 combo. My opinion is that Decay in the board rocks.

[Rood]

So sire is better then iona vs what match ups storm?

Any combo deck tbh minus except Elves. I prefer Sire over Iona because he's strictly better then her over the karakas matchups...I played in a local tournament and 3/4 rounds were against karakas decks. Being able to reanimate Griselbrand or exhume w/e draw 14 then drop a Sire on them is just game over. They can't karakas you whatsoever.

[Wess]

I play Reanimator a lot online...I dropped the deck for a while as the meta was too prepared for it. Since picking it back up, I've gone 4-0 in dailies and won a lot of 8 man's with taking out the show and tells, and maindecking abrupt decay and Gitaxian Probe's, here's my latest list:

someguy604 (4-0)
Legacy Daily #7241925 on 06/27/2014

Creature (7)
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Griselbrand
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Tidespout Tyrant

Sorcery (20)
4 Careful Study
4 Exhume
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Ponder
4 Reanimate
3 Thoughtseize

Instant (15)
1 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Entomb
4 Force of Will

Land (16)
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
4 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
4 Underground Sea

Sideboard (15)

3 Abrupt Decay
1 Ashen Rider
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Flusterstorm
2 Massacre
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction

Mainly, the changes over stock lists are:

-Getting rid of the lotus petals, which never really felt like they helped that much. Yes, they can enable a turn 1 combo, but its rare, but often I would have no information on what the opponent is playing, so I could just walk into a Karakas or FOW.
-Adding Gitaxian Probe, this card is ridiculously good in Reanimator and combo's with Tidespout. I've won a few games that would have been certain losses just by seeing if my opponenent had a wasteland in hand and whether to get a Sea or a basic. It's the little, crucial decision like that which make it great.
-Abrupt decay with Trop and Bayou to support it. Decay is an answer to almost everything. Anything that it can't hit, pithing needle will get sided in for.

[Omega87]

@Wess: why do you play so much graveyard hate in the sideboard? Is one abrupt decay main useful? Maybe cut it for 4th probe?

[Wess]

@Wess: why do you play so much graveyard hate in the sideboard? Is one abrupt decay main useful? Maybe cut it for 4th probe?

I wish I had more slots for GY hate, what I have feels insufficient. The MTGO meta is infested with dredge and other gy abuse. I'm guessing becuase Lion's Eye Diamond and Ichorid were just reprinted in VMA and are now super cheap.

As for the decay, yes, you could put a 4th probe in, but, I like knowing I have an "out" maindeck, there's lots of annoying stuff that hits us game 1, like DRS, Liliana, Revoker, Counterbalance, Ooze....etc Besides, 4 sometimes feels a bit heavy for the lifeloss, you really only want to cast it once before going off or setting up the early game. Combined with thoughtseize, reanimate gets dangerous against tempo and burn decks.

[Omega87]

Ah ok, i see, the MTGO meta might be different to paper meta. But do you really care about dredge? I mean i never lost a single match against them. Maybe a game, but really never a match. Elesh Norn is an instant win...
What are your experiences with the single abrupt decay, did you ever draw it when needed? With the 4th probe, you increase your chance of drawing one in the early game. Of course, 2 of them makes your hand very risky or weak.

[Rood]

Running a single decay in the maindeck is borderline pointless. You use it from the board to destroy hate that we otherwise wouldn't see g1. Even if your opponent goes turn 1 DRS what are honestly your chances of getting your 1 of decay? Pretty extremely low. If you're gonna main deck it run 4 I think...or none at all.

[ubernostrum]

I wish I had more slots for GY hate, what I have feels insufficient. The MTGO meta is infested with dredge and other gy abuse. I'm guessing becuase Lion's Eye Diamond and Ichorid were just reprinted in VMA and are now super cheap.

As for the decay, yes, you could put a 4th probe in, but, I like knowing I have an "out" maindeck, there's lots of annoying stuff that hits us game 1, like DRS, Liliana, Revoker, Counterbalance, Ooze....etc Besides, 4 sometimes feels a bit heavy for the lifeloss, you really only want to cast it once before going off or setting up the early game. Combined with thoughtseize, reanimate gets dangerous against tempo and burn decks.

I've been jamming Reanimator a bit in 2-man and 8-man queues. Seen a lot of Dredge, yes, but I've never actually felt a need for graveyard hate. They don't have any useful way to interact, so I just go all-in on reanimating Elesh Norn as fast as possible. So far seems to work pretty well.

[HammafistRoob]

Running a single decay in the maindeck is borderline pointless. You use it from the board to destroy hate that we otherwise wouldn't see g1. Even if your opponent goes turn 1 DRS what are honestly your chances of getting your 1 of decay? Pretty extremely low. If you're gonna main deck it run 4 I think...or none at all.

I think you missed the fact that he's running 4 Brainstorm, 4 Careful Study, 3 Gitaxian Probe, and 3 Ponder. I would personally feel more comfortable with 2 Decay or 0 in the main, but I can see the insane amount of digging potential his list has and I understand playing one ofs in such cases.

[Specksynder]

I'm running the standard list right now but was wondering if anyone has tried out Abrupt Decay in the side board? I was thinking maybe -

MAINBOARD
-1 island
-1 swamp
+1 Bayou
+1 Tropical Island

SIDE BOARD
+3 Abrupt Decay

It seems to fight through a ton of hate including Counter Balance and Chalice of the Void. It also takes out Rest in Piece, GD Cage, Lilly, and darn near everything else that can stop us.

Anyone try this yet?


I ran with the Abrupt Decay package last weekend and it was horrible. The deck completely folded to Wasteland. I would win game one but on game two and three was stuck on two mana and unable to Show and Tell with out being Daze'd. I went four rounds like that to a miserable 0-4 record. There is also Surgical Extraction to worry about which Abrupt Decay does nothing against. I'm positive a solid mana base for SnT is way more important in games 2&3 than fighting through hate.

[Wess]

I ran with the Abrupt Decay package last weekend and it was horrible. The deck completely folded to Wasteland. I would win game one but on game two and three was stuck on two mana and unable to Show and Tell with out being Daze'd. I went four rounds like that to a miserable 0-4 record. There is also Surgical Extraction to worry about which Abrupt Decay does nothing against. I'm positive a solid mana base for SnT is way more important in games 2&3 than fighting through hate.

Ideally I could fit another decay in the maindeck, yes. The 1 of is there more for breaking a counterlock, there is a ton of Miracles on MTGO.

[PirateKing]

I feel in a combo/pseudocombo deck like this, proactive cards like Show & Tell and the hilarious DRit into hardcast Griz sideboard strategies are better positioned to fight hate games beyond the first. Reactive cards like Abrupt Decay and other bounce effects take up too much tempo to be effectively deployed on our needed schedule. Turns spent playing Wipe Away aren't turns spent advancing our strategy, and could be better spent just playing S&T. For everything else, the flexibility of Pithing Needle covers well enough.

EDIT - If you're in a top8 with 7 Miracles players, then there is an argument to be made for Abrupt Decay. But going into a open meta, it doesn't pull enough weight for what you have to lose to run it.

[Arianeira]

Abrupt Decay works great in the board to answer hate if you run your 4 basics main deck and run your Bayou and Tropical Island in the board to increase your land count and to not lose to wasteland and increase your land count for show and tell. You still need Pithing Needle for Karakas though and Surgical Extraction still is a concern.

[Rood]

Decay also answers random crap people think for some reason is good against us...Ensnaring bridge. Never have I ever lost to that card...IDK why people think it's good against us. As for karakas. another answer is also just sideboarding wastelands. I maindeck them...but SBing them is an option as well.

[limbo]

I have been running a more standard UB reanimator deck lately, and rather than packing abrupt decays as anti-hate, I just run alternate win conditions to preserve stable mana. And why is no one running Helm of obedience in their sideboard? I love it. For any white deck, it works well with the postboard S&T plan and city of traitors, can't be abrupt decayed or attacked away, and no one needles it in the dark. As a one of, it rarely clogs your hand and you can often shuffle it away if you don't need/want it. I could see the argument of the second jace in this spot but other than that its lack of inclusion baffles me. In the main deck the only thing I go back and forth on is Iona verses the 4rth ponder. I like probes, but since I run petals to go off quickly, it adds an "unknown" card to my hand which makes hand keeps a bit more speculative, so I have opted away from it. I have only been on the deck for about 2 months so happy to hear input people with more experience might have. With the threat rich sideboard plan I almost never bring in the pithing needles for deathrite, pretty much just of Top and Painter pieces. As such I am thinking of cutting 1. Suggestions?
Main Deck
4 entomb
4 careful study
4 reanimate
4 exhume
4 brainstorm
3 ponder
4 force of will
4 thoughtsieze
2 show and tell

4 griselbrand
1 tidespout tyrant
1 Iona, shield of emeria
1 Elesh Norn, grand cenobite
1 Grave Titan

4 lotus petal
4 underground sea
2 swamp
1 island
4 polluted delta
1 flooded strand
1 misty rainforest
1 verdant catacomb
1 bloodstained mire

Sideboard
3 duress
3 pithing needle
2 city of traitors
1 jace, the mind sculptor
1 helm of obedience
2 massacre
1 ashen rider
2 show and tell

[Omega87]

I would not cut one needle, it is our out to almost everything. Shuts down Karakas, Deathrite, Nihil Spellbomb, what ever. Especially the fact hat you want to draw a needle in time, you need at least 3 to "guarantee" that.

By the way, i'll pick up reanimator for prague tomorrow. Will anybody join me?

[Worldslayer]

Id run the fourth Ponder before the eighth fatty (though I was up to 8 and 3 show and tell main for awhile last year), and shy away from probe - especially in the Thoughtseize lists, it's just too easy to lock yourself out of a griselbrand activation with all the cumulative life loss.

Unless they ban Deathrite, I'll never run less than three needles in the board. Leaving them out to try and threat over then is just making things harder on yourself then they have to be. My suggestion here is to stop not boarding them in ;)

Helm is something I've considered before, but it's still a one of with no way to find it. It's fine vs. Rest in Peace, but so are a lot of other cards that do things in other matchups. It IS probably a way to trump RIP in the Tin Fins deck (UB or BRw versions) since they have access to the LED + Infernal Tutor engine, and as such can find it and easily have the mana to cast and activate it, where as traditional reanimator doesn't really have either of those things.

Good luck in Prague omega! Id love to join you, but unfortunately not in Europe until August. Murder things, though. Murder all of the things.

Pirate King: my thoughts exactly. Though with needles and Sire (and being patient) i'm becoming less and less scared of miracles with the daze version. I might not run Decay even in a 7 miracles top eight just because I'm not sure we need it.

[Ragdoll]

Decay also answers random crap people think for some reason is good against us...Ensnaring bridge. Never have I ever lost to that card...IDK why people think it's good against us. As for karakas. another answer is also just sideboarding wastelands. I maindeck them...but SBing them is an option as well.

Howdy. I read a couple of pages here and I found your decklist of green-black reanimator. Are you still on this one? I have a question - is the the lack of library manipulation a problem for you? Does it affect on play? How many times are you forced to mull and if yes is it more often than in standard reanimator?

[HammafistRoob]

Howdy. I read a couple of pages here and I found your decklist of green-black reanimator. Are you still on this one? I have a question - is the the lack of library manipulation a problem for you? Does it affect on play? How many times are you forced to mull and if yes is it more often than in standard reanimator?
I can answer this one for you. Since the addition of Unmask over Duress, the deck is actually a lot more consistent since there's 12 ways to target yourself to dump a fatty in the bin along with the 4 Entombs. I would guesstimate that the BG build mulligans a little more often since there's no cantrips, but the tradeoff is worth it in my experience. The BG build might even have a higher turn 1 win rate than Belcher, and the list includes 12 pieces of 0-1 mana disruption/protection.

[kingsey]

What's the GB list? Is it more solid then burning reanimator

[Rood]

Howdy. I read a couple of pages here and I found your decklist of green-black reanimator. Are you still on this one? I have a question - is the the lack of library manipulation a problem for you? Does it affect on play? How many times are you forced to mull and if yes is it more often than in standard reanimator?

Yeah I'm still on the list. The lack of library manipulation is hardly really been a problem for me. You obviously mull a lot more frequent than a UB version would. But you're about a turn or two faster then traditional reanimator.

Edit: Kingsey

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Swamp (1)
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
3 [RS] Bayou
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [JGC] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [AVR] Griselbrand
1 [THS] Ashen Rider
1 [DGM] Sire of Insanity
1 [NPH] Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

// Spells
4 [US] Exhume
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [TE] Dark Ritual
4 [PD3] Reanimate
4 [PD3] Entomb
4 [R] Animate Dead
4 [MM] Unmask
4 [V09] Lotus Petal

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [THS] Ashen Rider
SB: 2 [DGM] Sire of Insanity
SB: 3 [M10] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 4 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction

[Omega87]

Hey Rood, how were things going at SCG?
In went 5:3 in Prague. Not very exciting but not too bad. Lost against Miracles, UWR Delver and some strange Combo Crap Piece but with 4 Leyline of the Void and 4 Rest in Peace in the maindeck (+ Helm of obedience).
Played an eight-man side event too, but lost to a very stupid mistake in game 3. I have two cards in hand (2FoW) and Griselbrand in play. He plays Liliana. Instead of drawing 7, i countered with Force pitching Force. Of course he had one FoW too, so i had to dig for 7 cards (low life total) and didn't find an other Force... Stupid mistake, but i will definitely never do it again. I was really pissed off about myself... :-D

PS: I wonder what makes Sire of Insanity so awesome against miracles? As soon as they find a Terminus or Swords, this creature does nothing. What do you guys think about Boseiju instead of Cities off Traitors? It would win us the counter-war in any case (for Show&Tell and Exhume)...

[TinkerRobot]

I've been playing Reanimator for about 2 years now (I played Tin Fins before that), and I've recently switched over to Huey Jensen's list. I like most things about this list as I've never been too big a fan of Lotus Petal. My only question is when do you sideboard in Jace, the Mind Sculptor? It doesn't seem to do enough since it doesn't play around hate cards and you can't protect it long enough to win with its ultimate.

[No_Life_No_Future]

Hi guys! I have been playing UB reanimator on MTGO a lot lately. I have been doing really well and I would like to share my list. I am really liking lotus petal. It allows you to race many hate cards it helps enable you to cast discard spells immediately from a Griselbrand draw 7. I will likely be playing this list at the SCG open this weekend.

UB Legacy Reanimator (60)

Mana (19):
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Swamp
1 Island
4 Lotus Petal

Creatures (7):
4 Griselbrand
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

Reanimaton Package (20):
4 Entomb
3 Exhume
1 Animate Dead
4 Reanimate
4 Thoughtsieze
4 Careful Study

Other(14):
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Pithing Needle

Sideboard (15):
2 Pithing Needle
2 Flusterstorm
1 Spellpeirce
2 Massacre
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Animate Dead
2 Duress
2 Chain of Vapor

One major difference between my list and others I have seen is that I am not running Show and Tell. I found it to be too slow and I eventually cut it. This allowed me to play fewer lands, fewer creatures, and necessitated maindeck needles. The needles shut down lots of the hate in the format leaving only Rest in Peace, Grafdigger's Cage, Surgical Extraction and Leyline of the Void as the primary offenders. It is important not to remove too many blue cards from the deck when sideboarding because the blue count is only 17 and this deck loves Force of Will. I think Ponder and Tidespout Tyrant are the worst cards in the deck right now and I often find myself boarding some number of them out. The basic Island is sometimes annoying. I board it out against decks without mana denial.

Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite is the bee's knees. It is game over for elves and dredge and great against belcher or storms empty the warren's tokens, death and taxes, and other weenie decks. This card is sometimes boarded out, but because weenie decks are common and it mops up opposing creatures well, it stays in more often than not.

Iona, Shield of Emeria is equally incredible. It is game over for Burn and High Tide and really good against storm and other combo. I often board this out after game one against creature and control strategies. It is clearly better if it comes into play early and it hurts a lot to reanimate it. Being on the play makes this card better, especially against burn.

Tidespout Tyrant is pretty good. It mostly there because it is not legendary (karakas) and because it bounces troublesome permanents like glacial chasm or ensnaring bridge. With needles in the deck I am not even sure it is necessary in the deck anymore. It has won me games though, and is great in the mirror or against Sneak and Show.


Matchups and Sideboarding
I will list the matchups I have run into a lot online. Please let me know what you guys think of my deck and sideboard strategy. My MTGO account is No_Life_No_Future. Feel free to add me I am always happy to play legacy.

Positive Matchups:

Burn
Out: Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, Tidespout Tyrant, Ponder
In: 2 Duress, 1 Spellpierce
They have almost no interaction besides speed so you need to mulligan aggressively for an entomb to lock them out with Iona, Shield of Emeria. They often run either relic or surgical, so I opt to keep in 2 needle, if you see leyline of the void scoop it up and put in the 2 chain of vapor

Blecher
Out: Iona, Shield of Emeria, Tidespout Tyrant, 3 Ponder
In:2 Duress 2 Pithing Needle 1 Spellpeirce 2 Flusterstorm
This matchups boarding decisions depend on who is on the play. If you are on the draw mulligan aggressively for Force of Will or a hand that can beat an empty the warrens for 10. Keep your blue count high. On the draw some number of duresses and needles can stay in the board.

Storm
Out: Tidespout Tyrant, 2 Pithing Needle, Iona, Shield of Emeria, Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
In: 2 Duress, 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Spellpierce
The TES and ANT matchups are a slightly different. If they are playing Burning Wish, Empty the Warrens is more likely and I would keep in Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite.

Oops All Spells:
Out: Tidespout Tyrant, Island, 2 Ponder 2 Pithing Needle
In: 3 Tormod's Crypt, Spellpierce, 2 Flusterstorm 2 Duress
Both Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite and Iona, Shield of Emeria are straight up wins here. Needle can also be good here.

Elves
Out: Tidespout Tyrant, Iona, Shield of Emeria
In: 2 Pithing Needle
Needle stops Deathrite Shaman and Scavenging Ooze. Sometimes they run Surgical or Crop Rotation so play around those when possible. Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite is pretty much game ending.

Dredge:
Out: Tidespout Tyrant, Iona, Shield of Emeria, 2 Pithing Needle, 2 Ponder
In: 3 Tormod's Crypt, 1 Animate Dead, 2 Chain of Vapor
They may have Leyline of the Void. Keep in mind you may be able to reanimate or animate dead their dredgers to keep them from dredging (usually not Gravetroll though). Be careful using Exhume as it gets much worse as the game goes on.

Death and Taxes:
Out: Tidespout Tyrant, Iona, Shield of Emeria, 4 Ponder
In: 2 Massacre, 2 Duress, 2 Pithing Needle
Karakas and Rest in Peace are poop. Needle has many targets so 4 copies are fine. Keep rest In Peace off the table at all costs. Swords to Plowshares are annoying, but you usually get at least a fresh 7 from Griselbrand.

Sneak and Show
Out: Iona, Shield of Emeria, Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, 1 Ponder.
In: 2 Duress 1 Spellpierce
Game one you have the advantage because Show and Tell is risky for them and needle hits Sneak attack. Graffdigger's cage is tough in the sideboarded games. Try not to let it hit play. Thoughtsiezing their griselbrand turns on your reanimate, but turns off your exhume.

High Tide
Out: Tidespout Tyrant, Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, 2 Ponder
In: 2 Duress, 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Spellpierce
I keep the 2 needles in for Top to stop Counterblance lock, which is pretty much the only way to lose this one as you are just so much faster. Try to play around Surgical Extraction if possible. Iona Wins.


Even Matchups:
RUG Delver
Out: Tidespout Tyrant, Iona, Shield of Emeria, 2 Pithing Needle
In: 2 Duress, 1 Animate Dead, 1 Spellpierce
Grafdigger's Cage and Surgical are the main hate cards I have seen. Keep cage off the table. Fetch basics if possible and play around Stifle, Daze, and Wasteland.
If Griselbrand hits play it is pretty much over.


UWR Delver
Out: Tidespout Tyrant, Iona, Shield of Emeria, 2 Pithing Needle
In: 2 Duress, 1 Animate Dead, 1 Spellpierce
Keep Rest in Peace off the table. Fetch basics if possible and play around Stifle, Daze, and Wasteland.
If Griselbrand hits play it is pretty much over. The at least have swords as a temporary answer.


Unfavorable Matchups:

Miracles:
In: 2 Pithing Needle, 2 Duress, 1 Spellpierce
Out: Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, Iona, Shield of Emeria, Island, 2 Ponder
Needle's are really great in this matchup hitting Sensei's Divining top and Karakas. The matchup is not unwinable but the Countertop, Rest in Peace, and Jace, the Mindsculptor just beat you.

BUG control, BUG Delver
In: 2 Pithing Needle, 2 Duress, 1 Spellpierce
Out: Iona, Shield of Emeria, Tidespout Tyrant, 3 Ponder
This matchup is bad because of they have Deathrite Shaman, Liliana of the Veil, Jace, the Mindscultpor, Grafdigger's Cage and lots of counterspells and discard. If you are on the play and race Deathrite the matchup is more winable.

Please let me any suggestions you have as I am currently sick of ending up the draw bracket with miracles and I am going to give this deck a try on paper this weekend. Thanks!

[Wess]

I've recently been testing 4 Dark Rituals in the Sideboard, so far, its performed way above my expectations. The reasoning for putting 4 in the board, is that I used to have 4 slots for GY hate, and a couple flusterstorms against combo and control. The dark rituals are easily better than those 6 slots so far, as with Dredge, its easier to race them with an Elesh Norn, against combo is makes you faster than them, and it also has the benefit of being great against Burn, Goblins, Elves and racing DRS.

Overall, this is the best change to the deck I've made in a while. I usually cut Gitaxian probes, a careful study, the fattie that's not applicable in the matchup, etc for them.

[Omega87]

@Wess: do you play UB Reanimator and petals? Show us your actual list please!

@No_Life...: to go only one way winning is very dangerous, because if the Opponent has Cage or RiP with Force back-up, you simply lose...

[Wess]

@Wess: do you play UB Reanimator and petals? Show us your actual list please!

@No_Life...: to go only one way winning is very dangerous, because if the Opponent has Cage or RiP with Force back-up, you simply lose...

For sure, I posted it already, but here it is with the updated sideboard, no more Ashen Rider, as without show and tell its useless, tidespout is better, no gy hate, and I cut the EE.

As for the 1 of abrupt decay in the maindeck, yes, chances are I won't draw it if I need it pre-combo, but its an answer post combo with grizz's draw 7 to random things which would make you scoop game 1, and when you do draw it pre-combo, its always good.

someguy604 (4-0)
Legacy Daily #7241925 on 06/27/2014

Creature (7)
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Griselbrand
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Tidespout Tyrant

Sorcery (20)
4 Careful Study
4 Exhume
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Ponder
4 Reanimate
3 Thoughtseize

Instant (15)
1 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Entomb
4 Force of Will

Land (16)
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
4 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
4 Underground Sea

Sideboard (15)

3 Abrupt Decay
1 Nature's Claim
2 Flusterstorm
2 Massacre
3 Pithing Needle
4 Dark Ritual

[downtoonelife]

Made Top 4 (48 players) yesterday with this list:

3 Griselbrand
1 Archetype of Endurance
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Ashen Rider

4 Entomb
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
1 Animate Dead

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Careful Study

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Thoughtseize

3 Pithing Needle

3 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Underground Sea
2 Island
3 Swamp

Sideboard:

3 Disfigure
1 Massacre
4 Duress
2 Echoing Truth
1 Ashen Rider
1 City of Traitors
3 Show and Tell

Round 1 vs MUD 0-2
Game 1: My hand were 4 animate spells and a Griselbrand with no entomb/careful study or even Thoughtseize until Metalworker, Lodestone Golem, Sundering Titan came into his board.
Game 2: I was able to discard his Chalice turn 1 but he top deck a Relic of Progenitus next turn and then top deck another Chalice and set it to 1 which resolve. And from there I was drawing 1cc spells and then a hasty Wurmcoil Engine went all the way.

Round 2 vs Sneak Show 2-1
Game 1: He combo first.
Game 2: In the early turns I was casting discard spells. The game went long but I eventually reanimated a Griselbrand with a few life left. When I attack with my Griselbrand he played his Through the Breach which resolve and block my Griselbrand with his own Griselbrand. We both draw 7 after gaining life. I Thoughtseize him and he responded with a Brainstorm. I discarded his Emrakul since I have Exhume in my hand so he will lost his Griselbrand in the yard. Played Exhume bringing back my Griselbrand. Griselbrand went all the way.
game 3: We both keep. After he Brainstorm at the end of my first turn he conceded. He has high casting cost spells in his hand with only 1 land. He said he don't want to waste his time anymore by continuing to play the game. I thank him for it.

Round 3 vs WR Goblins 2-0
Game 1: Animated Griselbrand then Elesh Norn and he conceded.
Game 2: Reanimated Griselbrand and it went all the way.

Round 4 vs Elves 2-0
Game 1: Reanimated Griselbrand and then Elesh Norn.
Game 2: Pithing his DRS and Scavenging Ooze. Exhumed Griselbrand then Elesh Norn.

Round 5 vs Painter 2-0
Game 1: I manage to put my Griselbrand in turn 2 and it went all the way.
Game 2: Early turns I was casting discard spells. Then animated Griselbrand and it went all the way for the win.

Round 6 vs DNT 2-1 (I was 8th after round 5 with a very low tie breaks and can't ID. I have to win to make it to the Top 8.)
Game 1: Entomb for Archetype of Endurance. Reanimated it 3rd turn. Then eventually Griselbrand and Elesh Norn came.
Game 2: I countered his 2nd turn RIP. But he got another 1 on his third turn. I conceded the game because I did not board-in my Show and Tell only removal spells and 2 Echoing Truth.
Game 3: Board in Show and Tell now. Turn 1 Careful Study discarding Archetype and Griselbrand. Good thing in his 2nd turn there was no RIP. In my turn 2 Exhumed Archetype of Endurance. On his turn 3 he played RIP. The Archetype made 18 damage to him until I can't attack anymore because he has more blockers. His Serra Avenger is attacking me and bringing my life down. Time was called. On turn 1 I top deck Show and Tell and drop Griselbrand. He drop Revoker naming Griselbrand. On turn 2 he equip SOFI to his Avenger. He Karakas my Griselbrand but reminded him of the Archetype in play. On turn 3 I attack Griselbrand and he block with his Avenger. On turn 4 he wasn't able to draw another flying creature and he extend his hand. I got lucky on this game when I top deck my Show and Tell.

Ended 1st after the Swiss.

Quarterfinals vs Team America 2-0
Game 1: Turn 2 Griselbrand and I pithing his Liliana of the Veil.
Game 2: He had a Tombstalker and a 4/5 Tarmogoyf. I resolve a reanimate to my Griselbrand and I was down to 1 life. Stalemate for a while until he had another 4/5 Tarmogoyf and I had a pithing to his LotV. On my turn I had to attack since I would die on his next turn with the 2 Goyf and Tombstalker. I attack and he did not block. I Draw 7 and had a Show and tell, Griselbrand, Ashen Rider, Exhume and some lands. I Exhume first bringing my Iona (naming Black). He opt not to bring back his Delver in the yard because it will make his Goyf to 3/4. I Show and Tell my Ashen Rider exiling his Tombstalker - he has no card in hand. After he draw on his turn he extend his hand. Got lucky again here.

Top 4 we split the prizes. Top 4 were Shardless, Reanimator, Esperblade and a 4c Loam deck.

Side notes: I did not miss Lotus Petal, I never mulligan for not having a land in my opening hand. The Pithing Needle maindeck was more essential than Show and Tell main. Archetype of Endurance really saves me on my win and in match against DNT. Everyone was reading the Card when they saw it in play. And can't believe that the card existed.

[blindspotxxx]

Made Top 4 (48 players) yesterday with this list:

3 Griselbrand
1 Archetype of Endurance
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Ashen Rider

4 Entomb
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
1 Animate Dead

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Careful Study

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Thoughtseize

3 Pithing Needle

3 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Underground Sea
2 Island
3 Swamp

Sideboard:

3 Disfigure
1 Massacre
4 Duress
2 Echoing Truth
1 Ashen Rider
1 City of Traitors
3 Show and Tell

Round 1 vs MUD 0-2
Game 1: My hand were 4 animate spells and a Griselbrand with no entomb/careful study or even Thoughtseize until Metalworker, Lodestone Golem, Sundering Titan came into his board.
Game 2: I was able to discard his Chalice turn 1 but he top deck a Relic of Progenitus next turn and then top deck another Chalice and set it to 1 which resolve. And from there I was drawing 1cc spells and then a hasty Wurmcoil Engine went all the way.

Round 2 vs Sneak Show 2-1
Game 1: He combo first.
Game 2: In the early turns I was casting discard spells. The game went long but I eventually reanimated a Griselbrand with a few life left. When I attack with my Griselbrand he played his Through the Breach which resolve and block my Griselbrand with his own Griselbrand. We both draw 7 after gaining life. I Thoughtseize him and he responded with a Brainstorm. I discarded his Emrakul since I have Exhume in my hand so he will lost his Griselbrand in the yard. Played Exhume bringing back my Griselbrand. Griselbrand went all the way.
game 3: We both keep. After he Brainstorm at the end of my first turn he conceded. He has high casting cost spells in his hand with only 1 land. He said he don't want to waste his time anymore by continuing to play the game. I thank him for it.

Round 3 vs WR Goblins 2-0
Game 1: Animated Griselbrand then Elesh Norn and he conceded.
Game 2: Reanimated Griselbrand and it went all the way.

Round 4 vs Elves 2-0
Game 1: Reanimated Griselbrand and then Elesh Norn.
Game 2: Pithing his DRS and Scavenging Ooze. Exhumed Griselbrand then Elesh Norn.

Round 5 vs Painter 2-0
Game 1: I manage to put my Griselbrand in turn 2 and it went all the way.
Game 2: Early turns I was casting discard spells. Then animated Griselbrand and it went all the way for the win.

Round 6 vs DNT 2-1 (I was 8th after round 5 with a very low tie breaks and can't ID. I have to win to make it to the Top 8.)
Game 1: Entomb for Archetype of Endurance. Reanimated it 3rd turn. Then eventually Griselbrand and Elesh Norn came.
Game 2: I countered his 2nd turn RIP. But he got another 1 on his third turn. I conceded the game because I did not board-in my Show and Tell only removal spells and 2 Echoing Truth.
Game 3: Board in Show and Tell now. Turn 1 Careful Study discarding Archetype and Griselbrand. Good thing in his 2nd turn there was no RIP. In my turn 2 Exhumed Archetype of Endurance. On his turn 3 he played RIP. The Archetype made 18 damage to him until I can't attack anymore because he has more blockers. His Serra Avenger is attacking me and bringing my life down. Time was called. On turn 1 I top deck Show and Tell and drop Griselbrand. He drop Revoker naming Griselbrand. On turn 2 he equip SOFI to his Avenger. He Karakas my Griselbrand but reminded him of the Archetype in play. On turn 3 I attack Griselbrand and he block with his Avenger. On turn 4 he wasn't able to draw another flying creature and he extend his hand. I got lucky on this game when I top deck my Show and Tell.

Ended 1st after the Swiss.

Quarterfinals vs Team America 2-0
Game 1: Turn 2 Griselbrand and I pithing his Liliana of the Veil.
Game 2: He had a Tombstalker and a 4/5 Tarmogoyf. I resolve a reanimate to my Griselbrand and I was down to 1 life. Stalemate for a while until he had another 4/5 Tarmogoyf and I had a pithing to his LotV. On my turn I had to attack since I would die on his next turn with the 2 Goyf and Tombstalker. I attack and he did not block. I Draw 7 and had a Show and tell, Griselbrand, Ashen Rider, Exhume and some lands. I Exhume first bringing my Iona (naming Black). He opt not to bring back his Delver in the yard because it will make his Goyf to 3/4. I Show and Tell my Ashen Rider exiling his Tombstalker - he has no card in hand. After he draw on his turn he extend his hand. Got lucky again here.

Top 4 we split the prizes. Top 4 were Shardless, Reanimator, Esperblade and a 4c Loam deck.

Side notes: I did not miss Lotus Petal, I never mulligan for not having a land in my opening hand. The Pithing Needle maindeck was more essential than Show and Tell main. Archetype of Endurance really saves me on my win and in match against DNT. Everyone was reading the Card when they saw it in play. And can't believe that the card existed.

Congrats and Nice Tech Card once again lol Deck looks solid!

[Darksteel]

Wow, Archetype of Endurance, huh? It seems good against Death and Taxes for sure. The only issue I see with it is if you go for it first with an Entomb and reanimate it, you'll have to draw another reanimation spell and way to bin a creature naturally, which could be tough. Still, putting it into play off Show and Tell seems hilarious if the opponent drops Oblivion Ring or something thinking they have you.

I'm not sure about how I feel cutting Lotus Petal, honestly. I really like the speed they give, especially in this Deathrite Shaman metagame. They're also a free spell for Tidespout Tyrant. On the other hand, they're awful draws later in the game, barring Titan synergy. Sometimes when playing the deck, I feel like I have too few mana sources even with 3 Petals and 16 land.

Maindeck Pithing Needle is a good way to mitigate the game 1 Deathrite Shaman weakness, and it usually has some target in every matchup's game 1.

[Worldslayer]

Recent addition I mentioned over in the "worst matchups" thread, but after almost a year of switching in and out between Tyrant, Terrastadon, and Ashen Rider as my "solution to permanents" non legendary guy, I've settled on Admonition Angel. Card is nuts with fetchlands. Tyrant needs spells to function, but most of our spells that we can cast after making a guy are cantrips. Cantrips can find either more cantrips or lands, but lands are only ever lands. In this way, Angel is kind of "on" more than Tyrant despite being capped at two permanents a turn maximum. If they remove her, yes, they get the things back - but if you've been running Tyrant, that's not an argument since he ALWAYS gives the bad guys their cards back. Angel doesn't solve Karakas, but doesn't particularly need to since a 6/6 flyer that removes their board position should be fine enough to win with and, let's be real, Tyrant never solved Karakas either.

I've never been less than sad at Ashen Rider, but I hear your mileage may vary on that one.

Card is insane once you start saving your fetch lands for after putting her in when possible, though even one nightmare trigger a turn is usually enough. I've just had too many games throwing my hand at making Tyrant only to have something like land, reanimate (no targets) and force of will in my hand, draw land, regret spending two cards and eight life making a do nothing dragon. Most things Angel doesn't solve are the primary targets for Pithing Needle anyway, so there's some strategic coverage there.

Been very happy with her so far, wanted to share.

For reference, I'm on the 4 petal, 8 land, seven fetch mana base. If you've moved to the Huey-esque 19 lands version, I imagine she's even better for obvious reasons.

[ethebubbeth]

There are some things to like about Admonition Angel. The 6/6 is relevant since both Ashen Rider and Tidespout Tyrant die to dismember at 5/5. Paying two less life is nice as well. The exile being reverted if she dies hurts a lot though. I'll have to go test with her in that slot.

The other card I am itching to try in that slot is Sire of Insanity, changing the strategy to shutting them down before they can do anything. He's only a good option the first two turns though.

[PirateKing]

There are some things to like about Admonition Angel. The 6/6 is relevant since both Ashen Rider and Tidespout Tyrant die to dismember at 5/5. Paying two less life is nice as well. The exile being reverted if she dies hurts a lot though. I'll have to go test with her in that slot.

The other card I am itching to try in that slot is Sire of Insanity, changing the strategy to shutting them down before they can do anything. He's only a good option the first two turns though.

The effect seems similar to the oldie Jin-Gitaxias, which worked as a nice positive back when he was our main source of card advantage. But it was just a pleasant side effect, never the main reason he was included.

[Worldslayer]

There are some things to like about Admonition Angel. The 6/6 is relevant since both Ashen Rider and Tidespout Tyrant die to dismember at 5/5. Paying two less life is nice as well. The exile being reverted if she dies hurts a lot though. I'll have to go test with her in that slot.

The other card I am itching to try in that slot is Sire of Insanity, changing the strategy to shutting them down before they can do anything. He's only a good option the first two turns though.

I actually cut Iona for Sire, since a lot of the decks she was good against either don't exist anymore, or get equally wrecked by Sire of Insanity. Current suite of giant monsters is

4 Griselbrand
1 Sire of Insanity
1 Admonition Angel
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

In standard UB daze/petal shell.

[D@N]

Does this deck still sometimes sb pack rats as a dodge for gy hate, or was I dreaming again?

[Stryfo]

Pretty sure I'm the only one that does that.

[Chimera87]

I run 3 Pack Rat SB and the responses of people is quite funny when it is put on the stack... They're typically close to "what the ...!" followed by "Oh S....!".

[Stryfo]

Surprised that that tech is making it around, I'm glad that other people think it's fun too.

[D@N]

What do you guys bring it in against? I'm trying out 2 in the board along with the norm s+t, decays and discard. Does it serve the same purpose as jace would? As I can't see a way to protect him even if the Opp. is light on threats. (Miracles)

[Stryfo]

I'm personally still testing, but the most common matchups I have found him effective against are:

Miracles
UWR Delver
Shardless BUG
Certain BUG Delver Lists
BUG Control
Deathblade
Esperblade

Basically, any deck that is slow and boards out removal or other ways to interact with pack rat in exchange for being able to interact with us on the stack or in the yard. People tend to think of miracles as a removal heavy deck, but most miracles players I have talked to have come to the common idea that removal is worse against us than counterspells like flusterstorm and spell pierce, or rest in peace, etc. (which I believe is true) thus their deck is often very removal light after board. The problem with pack rat is you have to be able to read your opponent, you can't overextend (if you suspect verdict, terminus, etc.), but you have to extend enough to be able to make the rats a respectable clock.

Note: I don't recommend playing pack rat in lists that also run lotus petal, it makes it much harder to actually activate the ability on pack rat.

[ethebubbeth]

The effect seems similar to the oldie Jin-Gitaxias, which worked as a nice positive back when he was our main source of card advantage. But it was just a pleasant side effect, never the main reason he was included.

Yes, and I continued to run Jin in the slot of one griselbrand for a while but eventually gave up. There were too many times where he'd die before they had to discard their hand. With sire, you have to discard as well, but they lose their hand at the end of your turn so they have to answer him immediately.

Glad to hear he's working out well for you already Worldslayer! I am considering either sire or angel right at the moment. Inkwell leviathan has been working out way too well for me main deck lately.

So I'm looking at:
Main:
4 Griselbrand
1 Elesh Norn
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Sire of Insanity / Admonition Angel / Tidespout Tyrant / Iona

Sideboard:
1 Grave Titan
1 Sire of Insanity / Admonition Angel / Tidespout Tyrant / Iona

[Rood]

I actually cut Iona for Sire
Glad someone else came to this conclusion.

I think the optimal creature config

4x Griselbrand
1x Elesh Norn
1x Sire of Insanity
1x Tidesprout Tyrant/Ashen Rider.

I think that's pretty close to optimal atm. Ways to combat Karakas, combo, and midrange decks.

[Omega87]

Glad someone else came to this conclusion.

I think the optimal creature config

4x Griselbrand
1x Elesh Norn
1x Sire of Insanity
1x Tidesprout Tyrant/Ashen Rider.

I think that's pretty close to optimal atm. Ways to combat Karakas, combo, and midrange decks.


I do not feel very comfortable with this configuration, it still loses to StoP, ORing and almost everything else death and taxes plays. I know it's a very hard match up, but sire doesn't fix it. Needle on Karakas/ Vial and Iona naming white works much better imo.

[ethebubbeth]

I do not feel very comfortable with this configuration, it still loses to StoP, ORing and almost everything else death and taxes plays. I know it's a very hard match up, but sire doesn't fix it. Needle on Karakas/ Vial and Iona naming white works much better imo.

I think I'm happy with Inkwell Leviathan (answer to targeted removal + bonus islandwalk / trample) in the main and Sire replacing Iona in the board.

[Worldslayer]

I do not feel very comfortable with this configuration, it still loses to StoP, ORing and almost everything else death and taxes plays. I know it's a very hard match up, but sire doesn't fix it. Needle on Karakas/ Vial and Iona naming white works much better imo.

Sire on one or two or (insert Angel/Tyrant here) is really only your game one plan. Game two, needle on karakas, make a Griselbrand is usually way more than enough. This matchup isn't nearly as bad as GW maverick was.

[Grave_]

I have an event coming up in a couple of days & I was hoping I could get some opinions on what my sideboard should look like.
This is my deck list:

4 Griselbrand
1 Elesh Norn
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Iona

4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study
4 Entomb
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
4 Force of Will
3 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
2 Daze
2 Show & Tell

4 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
2 Swamp
2 Island

For an unknown meta I run the following Sideboard:

3 Pithing Needle
2 Thoughtseize
2 Show & Tell
2 Flusterstorm
2 Echoing Truth
2 Massacre
1 Blazing Archon
1 Ashen Rider

I expect the following decks to make an appearance at the event, & do not want to board in anything too narrow to help me with these matchups, since the event is small & I do not expect a very large number of players. listed here:

Death & Taxes
High Tide
Maverick
Jund
Elves
BUG Delver
Shardless BUG
UR Delver
Canadian Threshold
Mono Red Burn
UR Burn

My greatest concerns are what Reanimation Targets to run in the sideboard (Sphinx, Grave Titan, Sire, Ashen Rider etc.) & avoiding diluting my deck by siding in more than 4 or 5 cards.

Any tips, strategy advice, opinions or advice on my Mainboard, Sideboard & matchups would be appreciated.

[Worldslayer]

I have an event coming up in a couple of days & I was hoping I could get some opinions on what my sideboard should look like.
This is my deck list:

4 Griselbrand
1 Elesh Norn
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Iona

4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study
4 Entomb
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
4 Force of Will
3 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
2 Daze
2 Show & Tell

4 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
2 Swamp
2 Island

For an unknown meta I run the following Sideboard:

3 Pithing Needle
2 Thoughtseize
2 Show & Tell
2 Flusterstorm
2 Echoing Truth
2 Massacre
1 Blazing Archon
1 Ashen Rider

I expect the following decks to make an appearance at the event, & do not want to board in anything too narrow to help me with these matchups, since the event is small & I do not expect a very large number of players. listed here:

Death & Taxes
High Tide
Maverick
Jund
Elves
BUG Delver
Shardless BUG
UR Delver
Canadian Threshold
Mono Red Burn
UR Burn

My greatest concerns are what Reanimation Targets to run in the sideboard (Sphinx, Grave Titan, Sire, Ashen Rider etc.) & avoiding diluting my deck by siding in more than 4 or 5 cards.

Any tips, strategy advice, opinions or advice on my Mainboard, Sideboard & matchups would be appreciated.

While I still strongly support Admonition Angel over Tyrant (your list even has an extra fetchland), think Sire is just superior to Iona anymore, and don't understand two Daze (seems like a four or zero of, personally), your list and notably sideboard seems about "as good as it's going to get". The two Truth seems awkward, but they're probably fine. Archon i've stopped running as Norn does most of the same work and Inkwell has been a welcome player lately.

Generally, Dazes come out for needles, usually one of your silver bullets is fine to cut (typically Elesh), and sometimes I'll take out one of each reanimation spell if I'm on the show and tell plan post board. Don't be afraid to Mulligan aggressively since, at least personally, the " cantrips and counters " hand is a trap.

Delver variants just dig for and make your land drops until you can make a griselbrand. Don't draw 7 unless absolutely necessary - they can't beat a 7/7 flying lifelinker, and turning stifle into a seven mana lava spike feels awful.

Death and Taxes - make a sire if you can to bin their Karakas game 1. Tyrant/Angel also works. Don't let them t Mom + flyer online, and feel free to run Elesh Norn into a Karakas as your secondary reanimate just to plague wind them.

Show and Tell - make a griselbrand or Sire. Be aware a lot of sneak players are back on Grafdiggers Cage as of Elvrs' resurgence, and lately I've been crafting games to Show and Tell x4 post board to make an Admonition Angel +fetchland post SnT ( or Tyrant + spell + instant). Your Thoughtseizes support this plan, board them in. Of nothing else, sometimes you can just get a free Griselbrand to reanimate from them. Needle goes on sneak attack, though they usually cut Shows for Boseju and Through the Breach.

High Tide is Iona if you run her, Sire if you don't. They can't really beat either card.

Elves is Elesh. All day, every day. Board in Shows for their DRS, it's a free roll. Needles probably. Griselbrand is choice two but still usually enough. Watch for NO. Daze sucks here. Bug, blade and Jund are all about the same - needle on Drs, Lilliana of the Veil. Their main interaction is Surgical and Discard, but if you can get a Grisel to stick youre usually fine. If you have a ton of disruption live, Needle Karakas vs. blade and just fight the Lilly. Griselbrand all day, Inkwell is also fine vs. blade.

Maverick - blind, needle Karakas. Drs only if it's an issue. Counter KotR even if you needle karakas as Maze of With and Depths combo are problematic. I find Show into Inkwell to be particularly effective.

Hope this helps! Dazes and sometimes some studies and up to 2 reanimate spells are my cuts depending on matchup and player.

Mulligan. Aggressively. The cantrip hands are traps.

[Grave_]

If it is safe to take out a fetchland for another card (wasteland worries me here), then I think I'll take out both dazes & bring the Thoughtseize up to 4 Mainboard & get a 4th ponder. I haven't tested sire but I'll run him SB, as I've been on the fence about trying him for a while. I haven't played admonition angel, so I'm hesitant to bring her in until after the tournament, but she looks promising with fetches. I will definitely test it out soon. I feel like I just have so much sideboard space & I feel silly having so many creatures in there. With your suggestions in mind I've done the following to my sideboard:

-Archon & 1 or 2 Thoughtseize (making 3-4 Mainboard, depending on if I should really go down to 15 land, is that not too greedy?)

+Grave Titan, Sire of Insanity & Inkwell Leviathan

Is the extra 2 power & islandwalk really worth it to run inky over empyrial? I feel like I already have enough creatures to board in for the blue decks & I kinda like the idea of taking less damage from creatures, although I do realize it dies pretty easily so I guess I answered my own question.

I like Grave Titan vs Decks with sac effects (lilly, pox) & I don't really think I need anything else other than maybe 2 City of Traitors to go deep for SnT or a couple graveyard hate cards for dredge/mirror.

I will definitely be goldfishing to practice what hands to keep. Your enthusiasm & input means alot.

[Worldslayer]

The two Truth slots might be fine as sol lands. I've enjoyed the two Ancient tombs in my board, for whatever that's worth.

My current list runs fifteen lands, 4 petals, twelve cantrips. While mana is occasionally an issue, the emphasis there is on occasionally. Fifteen with two in the board has been fine for me since I started running the deck. 4 basics (2/2), 4 seas, 4 delta, 2 black fetch, 1 blue fetch.

Three guys sends excessive in the board, but Titan can be fine against Lilly decks. Thing is, so is Griselbrand typically. Titan tends to only pull it's weight after a resolved Lilly, or if for whatever reason Gbrand can't protect himself. He's decent against Maverick. I haven't felt the need to run him lately, but if you're more comfortable go for it.

Sire is a wasted board slot. I recommend him over Iona, but if you're going to run Iona shes your silver bullet for almost every matchup Sire would also be (with the exception of sometimes just mind twisting DnT if they open on land vial.) Having both is unnecessary, they're the same plan, more or less.

If you run GY hate, run Surgical as that also has application vs. SnT if you need it - but really, our graveyard matchups are pretty excellent already.

[Grave_]

I really would like Admonition Angel to be good, but I don't see it. Let me explain my thoughts on it & you can tell me what I'm missing.

There are three major things that separate Admonition Angel from Tidespout (other than Tidespout's ability to be exiled for FoW); it's power/toughness, it's frequency of removal (average landfall per turn vs average number of cashable spells per turn) & it's type of removal (exile vs bounce).

The power & toughness of admonition angel are high enough to do three important things:

not only is admonition angel able to withstand a dismember, but it can also survive combat with a 2/2 followed by a 3 damage spell such as lightning bolt. It can not be killed by a 1/X with batterskull.

Unlike all other Reanimation Targets, Reanimate followed by Swords to Plowshares will net 0 life for us, while other creatures lose us life in that scenario.

When evaluating the kill speed or "clock" of a creature (which I consider highly relevant against combo decks especially), I prefer to assume that the opponent is at 18 life, due to the heavy use of fetchlands in legacy. This means that while an unopposed Admonition Angel can secure the win in only three turns, tidespout will often require 4.


Admonition Angel's frequency of removal is the primary thing that is holding me back. This comparison is mostly mathematical. Let's assume a favorable scenario. You've entombed & reanimated your creature of choice on turn two on the draw. You've used one fetch, one enabler, one petal & one exhume. Your deck has 13 lands & 29 spells that can be considered 'bounce fodder' out of the 49 cards remaining in your deck (60-7-2 turns-fetchland-entomb). The average number of lands you will draw per turn is about 0.26531, but since 6/13 of the remaining lands are fetches, The number of landfall triggers per turn is 0.39796. The average number of spells you will draw is approaching 0.59184 depending on how much you need to use them as bounce spells. My math is a bit basic, & maybe I'm missing something, so please tell me if I am*

I feel like Angel's greatest strength is its ability to exile instead of bounce. The thing is, I feel like this is win more due to the fact that all exiled permanents return once Angel is removed. With tidespout, anything you bounce must be recast, which becomes increasingly difficult when tidespout can also bounce lands. I like to assume that my opponent has answers, & when they remove tyrant after only a couple of turns, I still have an advantage due to their lack of lands & need to rebuild board state*

*On second thought, if you only cast half of the spells you draw, you will end up with more exiles per turn using Angel. Also, she's better at getting rid of one or two problem permanents as opposed to Tyrant bouncing several things that can simply be recast. What are some permanents that need to be exiled? Jace, Lilly, top, counterbalance... Maybe I will run Angel for a bit longer to see how it plays out. The biggest problem with her is the inability to choke the opponent's mana. It will probably take some time for me to determine which ability is more valuable to me.

[Worldslayer]

I kind of briefly went over this, but my general thoughts are that - tyrant is much more high variance and on a smaller body. Sure, sometimes you cast a billion spells and they pick up their whole board and you win - and I've done that. But sometimes I also had tyrant and a host if reactive cards (more prevalent in the daze version than the seize ones, I'd imagine) and you basically spent five life to make a 5/5 Man o War. Angel sucks when solved, but Tyrant kind of slowly solves itself - it only keeps ahead when you're drawing "well", and can't really answer common board states like Jace or Lilly without additional disruption. Like if Lilly exists on board, Tyrant needs a spell to pick it up and you still need an answer on top of that. I think if you run him over angel, it's because you're on 4 thought seize and I'm still not totally convinced he's correct. I think he suffers mostly from magical Christmas land syndrome, where people remember every time he cat a one sided Upheavel but tend to forget the times they went hellbent to make him, then drew a land and a reanimate they couldn't cast. Angel requires your OPPONENT to have a solution. Tyrant can possibly be his own.

Both enjoy cantrips, since a Ponder can find you a fetchland as often as a brainstorm.

Angel certainly enjoys Daze as a support spell, turning it " on" as a relevant card long after it would usually be a dead draw.

I mean, if you enjoy tyrant run tyrant. Comfort is a huge thing - but so far Angel is a bigger body, for less mana (aka life), a turn faster, (at least in my experience) more reliable, and better in more game states. She can't handle lands, really, but other than the dwindling numbers of Maze of Ith what land are we even worrying about? Tyrant certainly doesn't solve Karakas. He can bounce 12 posts, but when you can just sandbag a fetch crack for their eldrazi do we even care about that? Hell, she's even White so she dodges the random REBs people bring in against the Show and Tells and Careful Studies and counter spells they know we have.

At the end of the day, run what you like and are comfortable with, but so far "make an angel, erase two permanents every turn" has been both easily achieved and strong. I recommend anyone who hadn't played with this card to try it over tyrant and contribute to the discussion. I think she's a huge step forward in terms of our "vindicate" bullet and would love to hear back from others who have tested her.

[Rune]

Admonition Angel is certainly interesting and a lot better than Ashen Rider (which is fairly bad, in my opinion), but I think Tidespout is still the better in this slot for a few reasons. 1) Pitching to FoW is important since the deck is usually light on blue cards. 2) For me this slot needs to deal with the very few things that Elesh/Griseldaddy/Iona can't deal with, which includes lands. I'm not really wiling to randomly lose to Cloudposts into Emrakul (or Blighsteel/Forgemaster + Lightning Greaves) from 12Post or MUD, or some kind of Glacial Chasm/Maze of Ith lock from a Lands player. I've also had games against Enchantress where I needed to remove 4+ pesky enchantments in 1 single turn to win. I guess in the end it depends on what you require of this slot. Angel is probably better than Tidespout against the more typical Legacy decks/scenarios you will face, but for me this slot is mainly about hosing S&T and having an out to unusual scenarios.

edit: fixed some stupid things

[Grave_]

I just got back from an IQ running 4 petals, 4 Thoughtseize, & Admonition Angel over Tidespout. Grave titan was brought in from the sb almost every game
lotus petals were always good, 2-3 Thoughtseizes might have been a bit better, but I don't know. I never really got to try admonition angel in action, but I didn't miss tidespout tyrant much either. Griselbrand was the star today. Overall I was 1-4-1. I think I had a streak of bad luck which is amplified by me not being very good at choosing mulligans. This is the breakdown:

Round 1 vs elves: 0-2
Game 1: I Thoughtseize & decide to take glimpse instead of craterhoof I Bin elesh Norn, counter gsz, & get killed.
Game 2: mulligan to a 5 card no land hand & scoop when he plays deathrite turn 1.

Round 2 vs Punishing Jund: 1-2
Game 1: I Get a turn 2 Griselbrand & A turn 3 Elesh Norn. Go game 2.
Game 2: I draw blanks all game until I can hardcast grave
titan thanks to ancient tomb. They have an answer of mealstrom pulse on tokens & Liliana's -2.
Game 3: couldn't reanimate griselbrand before deathrite went online, had angelangel in hand all game, but no show & tell found despite boarding the two more in.

Round 3 vs ANT: 1-2
G1: Turn 1 I Thoughtseize his Dark ritual. Next turn he sees the hand of iona & Show and Tell in my hand & manages to go off with past in flames before I get a creature out.
G2: A long game, I Thoughtseize him twice turn 1 & once on turn 3. After eventually exhuming griselbrand I go to 4 trying to counter chain of vapor. I get it back out on my next turn but he top decks another chain of vapor & tendrils for game.
G3: had a Thoughtseize & 2 Flusterstorm, but lost when he jammed more rituals at me than I had mana to counter. He gave the the Round 2-0 so that his group could go home since they were all 0-3.

Round 4 vs Smallpox: 1-1-1
This guy stalled hard & it paid off for him since one More turn would have made me win game 3.
Game 1: I have a hunch hes playing belcher & keep a hand with 2 FoW+2 blue cards. He locks me out a few turns in & kills me with a manland.
Game 2: I reanimate grave titan on turn 1.
Game 3:he breaks out a chains of mephistopheles & takes us to time by taking Turns upward of 3 minutes each. I eventually get out grave titan, but Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale kills off the tokens most of the time. He's defenseless at 2 life & passes the 5th turn after a 2 minute time extension for a draw.

Round 5 vs Dredge: 0-2
I wasn't sure what to counter since he never tried to go off without 2 separate enabler spells & I never have multiple in my hand.
Game 1: tried countering cabal therapy to keep my combo, forgot he had more in the graveyard & a few creatures.
Game 2: I cast a Show & Tell & we each drop our own griselbrands. After some jostling for life a few turns, he gets flamekin zealot &.Some tokens.

Round 6 vs MUD: 1-2
Game 1: He fails to exhume wurmcoil when I exhume griselbrand twice. It cost him the game.
Game 2: t1 Chalice on 1 shuts me down.
Game 3: I never get there & I die to a couple of creatures.

I have to hold off on replacing my creatures because I still haven't tested angel. I usually sideboarded out 2 Reanimate & 2 careful Study for SnT & flusterstorm / sol land depending on the matchups.

[Omega87]

Hey, i am going to visit my local event on Saturday in Munich. My build looks a bit different now, as i decided not to play Show&Tell in the maindeck. I did cut the Massacres in the Sideboard, because i do not want to waste these Slots for a horrible Match-up like D&T. So i try to improve our better but still critical matches.
Please take a look and tell me what you think about it.
Regards, Stephan

My List:

Mana: 17
4 polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Lotus Petal

Business: 16
4 Entomb
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
4 careful Study

Protection: 12
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
2 Thoughtseize

Carddraw: 8
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

Creatures: 7
4 Griselbrand
1 Iona
1 Elesh Norn
1 Tydespout Tyrant


Sideboard: 15
2 City of Traitors
4 Show and Tell
2 Jace the Mind Sculptor
3 Pithing Needle
2 Flusterstorm
1 Grave Titan
1 Thoughtseize

[Grave_]

Hey, i am going to visit my local event on Saturday in Munich. My build looks a bit different now, as i decided not to play Show&Tell in the maindeck. I did cut the Massacres in the Sideboard, because i do not want to waste these Slots for a horrible Match-up like D&T. So i try to improve our better but still critical matches.
Please take a look and tell me what you think about it.
Regards, Stephan

My List:

Mana: 17
4 polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Lotus Petal

Business: 16
4 Entomb
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
4 careful Study

Protection: 12
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
2 Thoughtseize

Carddraw: 8
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

Creatures: 7
4 Griselbrand
1 Iona
1 Elesh Norn
1 Tydespout Tyrant


Sideboard: 15
2 City of Traitors
4 Show and Tell
2 Jace the Mind Sculptor
3 Pithing Needle
2 Flusterstorm
1 Grave Titan
1 Thoughtseize

I don't like Jace in the SB, but that's just me.
I think 14 land is a bit shaky, & I'm of the belief that you shouldn't go below 15 lands. Running both dazes & petals seems redundant to me. If you're speeding up with lotus petals, I don't see slowing the opponent with daze being as necessary. Spell pierce seems like an alternative to flusterstorm that belongs in the SB, & I would rather have more Thoughtseizes MB with a duress or two in the SB if 4 Thoughtseize isn't enough disruption. Most of the differences are meta dependent & based upon your preferences. Good luck & play whatever list makes you happy, but remember that every event is a chance to test new things.

[Omega87]

I am not too sure about the Jaces either, but pack rat seems even worse in my opinion.
I play the petals to balance the lack of speed due to daze. I love to counter a shaman drawn from the top, which thoughtseize or duress does not hit...
What other land would you play, another basic or fetch? Sometimes i cut one Usea and play 4 basics, but thats a meta decision (dependent on the number of RUG players..)

[Kamus]

Why daze is so great and is a must have in reanimator:

http://blip.tv/scglive/scgma-lgc-finals-matthew-costa-vs-reid-duke-6201704

[Worldslayer]

You play Dazes and Petals.

Massacre is necessary for DnT and Junk decks. Neither are actually that bad or unwinnable, though Massacre and Show and Tell are certainly some of the reasons why they aren't. It's also fairly strong vs. Uwr and esper blade decks.

Iona has long been outmoded by Sire. She is a relic.

If Spell Piece is taking the place of SnT I'd imagine it'd at least be either combo pieces like the outdated animate dead or something free, like Unmask given our window of operation.

[Omega87]

went 3:3 yesterday, not very exciting.
Lost to 2 miracles and 1 Elves (2:1 very unlucky, his discard hit almost everything i had. he won the dice roll)
Won against 1 Elves, 1 Burn (thx Iona), and one mirror.
now i will try to cut the petals, like reid duke did 2012. See video above.
my new 75:
http://www.mercadia.de/home/page.php?site=magic/deck2/deck&id=99068

@worldslayer:
Show us your 75, and please explain why you like sire so much?! (did it win you a match? How? What happened?)

[Worldslayer]

My seventy five is pretty standard UB, not too much different from my Philly list other than the Dazes over Thoughtseize.

MD:

Creatures - 7
1 x Elesh Norn
1 x Sire of Insanity
1 x Admonition Angel
4 x Griselbrand

Spells - 38
2 x Show and Tell
4 x Careful Study
4 x Ponder
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Daze
4 x Force of Will
4 x Entomb
4 x Reanimate
4 x Exhume
4 x Lotus Petal

Lands - 15
1 x blue fetchland
2 x black fetchland
2 x Swamp
2 x Island
4 x Polluted Delta
4 x Underground Sea

SB - 15
1 x Silver Bullet Creature
2 x Massacre
3 x Pithing Needle
9 x other things

Iona has essentially been outmoded for reasons I outlined earlier in this thread, but generally - the decks that we have trouble with aren't just one relevant color with two irrelevant supports anymore, Sire can protect himself in more circumstances, Sire is less vulnerable to the allstar anti reanimator card Karakas, and on early turns Sire can completely demolish even an unknown opponent. Everywhere I want Iona, Sire is just as good and some times I want specifically Sire and not Iona, so Iona gets the nod. Iona was typically our first or second string anticombo measure, and Sire remains unbeatable there while also being incredible against midrange decks and things like Death and Taxes ( who will usually sand bag Karakas in hand until we commit life and resources to making a legend). Sire is just a punishing house, and was my favorite update to the deck before I found Admonition Angel as the catch all Vindicate Bullet. Just read a page or two back to find more thought out arguments for Sire - unfortunately it's 10:30 and I'm checking out of my hotel currently.

[Omega87]

So you play Dazes and petals too?!

[Worldslayer]

Daze and Petal together are fairly "stock" in terms of the UB lists. Our effective window of operation pushes us to go faster and interact earlier than most decks, so eight free countermagic and colored mana producing accelerants seems par for the course. Some eschew petals, and I know I didn't run daze for the longest time when I started playing reanimator, but anymore I believe running both is more common than running just one (or perhaps neither). We're an underground sea combo deck - speed is paramount.

[TinkerRobot]

I will agree with the necessity of Daze in this deck. I have played with and without Petal, and although I run 3, I wouldn't fault anyone for cutting it (for more lands, obviously).

I've been really liking the addition of Sire of Insanity in the maindeck over Iona since I started testing it about 2 weeks ago. As I have also long been a proponent of Grave Titan (for matchups with Liliana and Karakas), I am now playing a list with

4 Griselbrand
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Grave Titan
1 Sire of Insanity

sideboard
1 Ashen Rider
1 Chancellor of the Annex

as my suite of fatties. Unless Khans shakes up the metagame (like Deathrite or True-Name did), I will be playing this configuration in GP New Jersey. While I like Ashen Rider in the 75, I find it underpowered in game 1s, but great at removing hate permanents games 2 and 3, so I moved it to the side. Chancellor of the Annex is both a concession to the speed of the format and my unwillingness to lose to Karakas. I also find it to compliment Daze in the way tempo decks use Wasteland.

[Kamus]

Iona > Siren

[kingsey]

Iona > Siren

I'm still not sold on sire over my girl iona. She owns burn and elves which are major.

[TinkerRobot]

I'm still not sold on sire over my girl iona. She owns burn and elves which are major.

True it might lose percentage points in those matches, but I'm more likely to Entomb for Elesh Norn against Elves anyway, and Griselbrand usually handles burn.

[Stryfo]

Personally, since I don't run petals, I'd much rather play Iona. Playing sire into an opponent's mana is always scary for me, I can understand his power in a deck with the ability to get him into play turn one, but without petals, I think Iona is a more consistently powerful choice.

[Rood]

Sire is a far better choice IMO then Iona. Comboing off with Griselbrand then drawing 14 into Petal animate for Sire is also just gg. Gotta deal with dat karakas.

[Stryfo]

Just went to a 52 person tournament for a judge promo force of will, ended up taking second. Here's a VERY brief report, because I didn't take any notes.

Rd 1 - W - Deathblade, Pack Rat did work here.
Rd 2 - L - UW Miracles with RiP helm, I took game 1 with a fast griselbrand, the helm got me in game 2 when I had lethal on board and I mulled to a bad four game 3.
Rd 3 - W - DnT, g1 I get a turn 2 griselbrand, he lands karakas so I draw 14 and hit the 1 mainboard needle. I reanimate Iona and he scoops. g2 he mulls to 5 which he later tells me was 3 plains 2 waste. I had a basic and 2 fetches in my opener, so he didn't get there.
Rd 4 - W - Goblins, had the turn 1 force for his cage in games 2 and three followed by turn 2 Jin both times (once by choice, once not), he got g1 by wasting my only land and I never drew out.
Rd 5 - W - Affinity, Turn two Grisel g1, Turn three Elesh after bouncing his crypt g2
Rd 6 - W - Miracles, Turn two Grisel g1, Game two was longer, he countered my early action and I eventually cast misthollow griffin, which did 9 damage before getting blasted, then I cast (after trying to work around his counter-top for a while) pack rat and slowly ratted him out of the game, was really close, he snapped back councils judgement twice to try to keep the rats in check.

Quarters - W - Miracles, G1 I had the nut turn 2 with counter backup, G2 I got there with clique and some tidespout-animate dead tricks.
Semis - W - UWR Delver, G1 took a while but I eventually exhausted his counters and a Griselbrand hit play. G2 we jockeyed for position and he slammed rest in peace. I slam rat and we have a fight over it, I get to keep the rat and he doesn't have immediate removal, so I win.
Finals - L - Miracles, g1 I win fairly quickly, since I'm on the play. g2 I mulligan kind of deep and he sets up a lock, stabilizing at 6 life, taking MANY turns to get rid of my hapless researcher that pestered him all game. g3 I punt away, and sadly, only get 2nd place.


I love my build of this deck, most of you will probably think it's crazy, but at the very least, the main 60 is insanely consistent and resilient, and the sideboard is, if nothing else, fun, and it was very successful in this tournament. Here is the list I'm running currently:



4 Hapless Researcher
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3 Griselbrand
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur

2 Island
3 Swamp
2 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Underground Sea

2 Animate Dead
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
1 Echoing Truth
1 Pithing Needle
4 Entomb
4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
4 Careful Study
4 Exhume
4 Reanimate

Siedboard:
2 Pithing Needle
1 Echoing Truth
2 Baleful Strix
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
3 Pack Rat
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Misthollow Griffin
2 Thoughtseize
1 Engineered Explosives

[Adryan]

Currently I'm doing pretty well with this deck online. I enjoy the fact how fast this deck can win games (i play mostly miracles and I'm a smoker^^) and how it crushes that stupid Sneakshow deck and all the other combo decks (i don't mind losing to Storm etc., but losing to Sneakshow is always heartbreaking).


I only have one question, because i only read the last 2 pages of this thread. Did anyone ever try playing a BUG Version of Reanimator (with a couple of Abrupt Decay in the MD for mainly Deathrite, Counterbalance and postboard stuff like Needle, RIP etc.). Currently preboard with U/B the plan is to be faster than Deathrite Shaman or win via Show&Tell or win with double fatty and Exhume, which is okay but there are some spots where you are too slow or simply don't draw the stuff which is useful with Deathrite in play.

[Stryfo]

People have tried it, with varying degrees of success. But you still run into the problem of not drawing your abrupt decay, and, preboard, decay is commonly only good against DRS and counterbalance. I'd personally rather have more versatile tools, which is why I play a mainboard pithing needle. This allows me to fight karakas, Jace, and Top, while still having an answer to DRS and keeping my manabase strong.

[Arsenal]

Sire is a far better choice IMO then Iona. Comboing off with Griselbrand then drawing 14 into Petal animate for Sire is also just gg. Gotta deal with dat karakas.

Sire seems win-more in that situation. If you've reanimated Grizzledaddy, drawn 14 cards, and are still alive, why exactly are you wanting to Sire? Why do ANYTHING there?

[PirateKing]

4 Hapless Researcher
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3 Griselbrand
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur

2 Island
3 Swamp
2 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Underground Sea

2 Animate Dead
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
1 Echoing Truth
1 Pithing Needle
4 Entomb
4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
4 Careful Study
4 Exhume
4 Reanimate

Siedboard:
2 Pithing Needle
1 Echoing Truth
2 Baleful Strix
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
3 Pack Rat
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Misthollow Griffin
2 Thoughtseize
1 Engineered Explosives

This list might just be crazy enough to be institutionalized! I think I'll play around with it myself. Seems like it'll be fun if anything.
Any guidance on how this particular load out functions beyond the obvious?

[Adryan]

This list might just be crazy enough to be institutionalized! I think I'll play around with it myself. Seems like it'll be fun if anything.
Any guidance on how this particular load out functions beyond the obvious?

I'm no expert on this deck, but playing less than 4 Griselbanned is just wrong.

Why does this deck need Hapless Researcher?

[Stryfo]

@Adryan, 4 Griselbrand opens you up to at least: 1) having too many creatures, or 2) not having enough variety of creatures for your matchups. There are other problems as well, especially in post board matches agaisnt decks with cards like karakas and surgical extraction. What card would you cut from my 60 to add the 4th Griselbrand?

Regarding hapless researcher, I can go on forever about why it's great, but I'll try to condense the reasons below:

1) Hapless is a creature, it can attack (I have beaten so many people by just playing one or two and attacking over and over) and block, and it doesn't get hit by spell pierce, flusterstorm, or swan song.
2) Hapless can discard cards at instant speed, enabling Exhume tricks.
3) Hapless allows you to invest mana and cards before committing cards to the graveyard, extremely useful for beating hate cards.
4) Increasing the number of this effect increases the number of keepable sevens, therefore strengthening the deck.

@Pirate, My list plays a lot more deliberately than the current standard list, the game plan is obviously to get a guy into play on turn two, but the deck has the ability to go longer thanks to the increased land count and the variety of targets and anti-hate. It's not as explosive as standard reanimator, but I believe it is more consistent on turn two with more keepable sevens and less anti-synergy (Show and Tell has some anti-synergy with entomb and careful study, and ponder has some anti-synergy with lotus petal). I can go into more detail if you want, but I don't want to type out too much if that's not what you wanted.

[Justin]

The problem with Hapless Researcher is that it is the third-best card for putting creatures in the graveyard for UB, and this deck does not need that many discard outlets. If you substitute your Researchers for Ponder, you will be amazed at how much more consistent and better the deck is. You need to make sure that you run enough cantrips, because they will help you find the missing piece of your combo.

[Stryfo]

I've been playing this deck exclusively for ~7 years, I've played with ponder and found the opposite, when I upped the hapless count, my consistency improved. Also, I'd argue that hapless is better than careful study most of the time, making it the second best discard outlet in UB.

[PirateKing]

@Pirate, My list plays a lot more deliberately than the current standard list, the game plan is obviously to get a guy into play on turn two, but the deck has the ability to go longer thanks to the increased land count and the variety of targets and anti-hate. It's not as explosive as standard reanimator, but I believe it is more consistent on turn two with more keepable sevens and less anti-synergy (Show and Tell has some anti-synergy with entomb and careful study, and ponder has some anti-synergy with lotus petal). I can go into more detail if you want, but I don't want to type out too much if that's not what you wanted.

Seems unusual to have no Petals but Daze. Petals opens up super fast kills that need as many free counters as you can manage to make your turn 1/2 play stick. With no petals you're looking at turn 2/3, at which point Daze is just getting paid. Typically, the lists without Petals are hard into the Thoughtseize plan, since if your turn 1 play isn't Griz, it better be discard. What's your thinking on this?

Without Ponders, your only digging is the Brainstorms. Do you treat Careful Study as a search tool when digging? 10 grave effects is more than most lists, but still seend like you'll be stuck on 2/3 of what you need and now way to search for the third piece.

No Petals and lots of land supports the mana intensive base required to run Pack Rat, but what about the random other creatures? How effective is 1 Misthollow Griffin? 1 Vendillion Clique? If the sideboard is intended to be transformational, is it selective or do all creatures come in all the time?

What's your target for EE, since without Petals you're limited to 2? You have Needle and Echoing Truth, so what's left to hit? Of those things, why not Ratchet Bomb?

Thanks.

[kingtk3]

Back in 2011 Hapless researcher was the real thing, just look at page 122 of the old thread: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?8639-Deck-Reanimator&p=560159&viewfull=1#post560159

Those were the time when playing less than 4 brainstorm was accepted for the sake of consistenly reanimate a creature on turn 2, but also at that stage deathrite and rip didn't exist and the decks in general were different... I miss those days a little :(

[Stryfo]

In my experience, Daze has just been more effective than thoughtseize, thoughtseize slows you down even more than daze, since it's dangerous to cast it the turn before you go off, forcing the play to be made on the third turn if you're going for exhume or reanimate. The turn one thoughtseize in game ones seems somewhat suspect, it doesn't beat DRS on the draw, and doesn't even beat force of will very frequently because of the large amount of cantrips in the format.

If your opponent is durdling and giving you time to set up because they are afraid of daze, great, we have the tools to go long. If not, then they are forced to play into daze. Having your reanimation forced is not the worst outcome because we are running 10 of that effect, most other spells you can deal with using daze, or the opponent is not casting other spells.

The deck doesn't transform exactly very often (The only matchup I bring in every creature for is actually the mirror). The 1 Griffin has been exclusively for miracles. They are slow enough that if they run rest in peace out, you can entomb for it, and suddenly you have a very real threat. They board out their entreats because they are so clunky against us, and most of the time cut terminus as well. In my experience, the griffin has been great in that matchup.

The Clique is brought in against miracles and combo mirrors where I feel I can afford to bring it in.

The strixes are strictly road blocks for RUG delver, since they have only 12 threats and rely heavily on soft counters, killing their threats is pretty huge, and baleful strix enables that. It's possible that these could be something else, but they have always done exactly what I want them to against RUG, so I'll be keeping them until I find something better.

Most of the time the deck doesn't transform at all, usually the anti hate is enough.

EE is in because it is harder to counter with counterbalance than Echoing Truth or Ratchet Bomb, since you can pay an arbitrary X with sunburst remaining 1 or 2, it's also harder to abrupt decay since it doesn't always take extra turns to activate like ratchet bomb does. EE is also better against fish and elves than echoing truth, which is why I have the 1-1 split. There are no 3+ cmc permanents I worry about if I'm able to get guys into play, and if there were, I'd rather not use ratchet bomb to deal with them.

I don't use careful study frequently as a dig spell, but one of the skills to learn while playing even the standard version of UB Reanimator is when to fire off careful study as a dig spell. Going into specifics on this skill is very hard, because there are many variables.

I hope that is the information you were looking for from me.

[Justin]

I've been playing this deck exclusively for ~7 years, I've played with ponder and found the opposite, when I upped the hapless count, my consistency improved. Also, I'd argue that hapless is better than careful study most of the time, making it the second best discard outlet in UB.

It is not possible that your consistency improved when you took out Ponder for Hapless Researcher. If you think it did, it can only be because you do not know how to play Ponder properly. Did you know that you have the option of shuffling your deck and drawing a card off the top if you don't like your top three? By the way, how many Reanimator decks that finished in the top eight at a major tournament played hapless and not careful study? I cannot find a single example. How many played careful study and not hapless? Nearly all of them. I rest my case.

[Stryfo]

It is entirely possible that my consistency went up without ponder, there is no reason to belittle me by assuming I don't know how ponder works. It is also not proof that careful study is better because people use it and not hapless. Just like it was not proof that the world was flat because everyone thought it was. The number of people who copy lists and don't cut sacred cows is huge compared to the number of tinkerers, so it seems obvious that by sheer numbers you will see more careful studies than hapless researchers. How many lists other than my own have you actually seen play multiple researchers? not in top 8s, but anywhere? Do you actually think those people tested with Hapless vs. Careful Study? I bet you most of them thought, "it only draws one card rather than two, so it must be strictly worse," and never took a second look. I'm happy to have a pro/con argument with you, but if you think "the world is flat because I can't see the curvature, and therefore it can't be round," then there is no reason to argue with you.

Have you ever TRIED my version of the deck? Based solely on your "It is not possible" language I'd guess not. I've played the standard version, and it feels infinitely more clunky than the list I've arrived at after a lot of thinking and tinkering. I didn't just throw my list together because I saw someone doing it, I thought about what I wanted to be doing after every single tournament I played since I started playing the deck, arriving at a list that fits my playstyle.

[Justin]

Yes, I played your version of the deck around 2011, but I found the deck to be much better when I cut them and opted to add ponder. I stand by my statement that it is impossible for the deck to be more consistent with hapless than with ponder. Note that I said "consistent" and not "better." Ponder lets you look at three (or four if you shuffle) cards on top of your deck and helps you find your combo pieces so that you can reanimate a fatty onto the battlefield. Hapless puts one card off the top into your hand. So running Ponder will clearly 100% make your deck more consistent than if you run hapless. There is no debate about that. When you said that the deck was more "consistent" for you when you ran hapless over ponder, this cannot possibly be true. You might have meant to say that the deck was "better," which I admit is possible albeit very doubtful. The best advantage of running hapless over ponder is that it makes the deck faster. If you have a hapless and a fatty in hand, you can send it straight to the bin. However, nearly all reanimator players today prefer the consistency of ponder. Hapless is pretty bad when you don't have a fatty along with it and you will be wishing it was a ponder. Consistency is the key to a more successful reanimator deck.

[Stryfo]

You're talking as though you are playing the deck in a vaccuum and as though hapless was not itself a combo piece. Sure, if your opponent is not interacting with you, ponder allows you to find missing pieces better than hapless, though unlike hapless it is not a piece in itself. But the more turns you give your opponent to interact with you, the less likely you are to resolve your important spells and have them matter. The consistency I speak of is that I just have the whole combo more often than the standard list, meaning I have to mulligan less and I have to durdle around less, fewer mulligans and less durdling turns into more consistency. So yes, it is still entirely possible that hapless researcher increases consistency, but it is, I grant you, more of a big picture consistency. I admit that ponder digs further, but that is not the end all be all of consistency. Hapless also interacts with opponents much more favorably than ponder.

But the argument here isn't (wasn't at least) ponder vs. hapless, we were talking about careful study vs. hapless. Before you try to convince me to play ponder over hapless, you'll have to convince me that I should keep careful study over hapless.

As an aside, somewhat unrelated to what we have been saying, if hapless indeed does make the deck faster, why is the main list playing ponder and petal rather than hapless and petal or ponder and no petals? Playing petals is wildly inconsistent compared to playing without them (in this particular deck), but it also makes the deck faster. Why are people playing them if they care about consistency? Just something I never understood, maybe you can shed some light on this for me.

[Stryfo]

I spent some of this morning writing a Python script to see if I could numerically simulate what we have been talking about. The logic gets involved if I go beyond turn two, as is I'm sitting at ~250 lines and am taking a break. The following is not meant to be proof of any argument, I'm just sharing what I have done because I think it's cool and interesting.

the initial results are interesting however. The program follows these rules:
the only mulligans are hands with no lands, everything else is a keep, all lands are considered duals. We only mulligan down as far as 5. The used lists are the same: my list with a swap between hapless and ponder. We are always on the draw (Not sure why I did that, but as long as it's all the same, it shouldn't matter). Since we are worrying about going off on turn 2, ponder is always cast turn 1 (I know this has issues with careful study to dump turn one, but the logic I used is flawed, and so sometimes allows extra mana for the ponder player on turn two, which makes up for the turn 1 bad ponder, but it overcompensates a little). Also, ponder always shuffles if the hand+ponder doesn't have all necessary pieces.

I've had some trouble thinking of the some of the logic, specifically, what to do if ponder is cast turn one but the required combo is 3 mana, or if the combo is 2 mana but there is only one land available, also, I had some trouble thinking about how to deal with the card drawn on the second turn, which is a problem in both cases. Because of this, the numbers on both cases are slightly higher than they should be, with ponder being slightly higher still but that should be fine, we should still get a rough estimate.

Anyways, after running the numbers (repeated simulations of 10,000 trials), I am getting that with hapless, we get to go off turn 2 ~52% of the time, compared to ponder ~41%.

I am not saying this proves anything, the program is clearly flawed in multiple ways (which I will work on), but given the rules stated above I do think the results are interesting, it certainly points to (but does not prove) what Justin was saying regarding speed, though it obviously doesn't say anything about consistency as whole, only on turn 2, with very special rules. Magic is hard.

If anyone has any ideas on how to code this better or has done this already, I am genuinely curious of the outcome, any and all feedback is appreciated. Also, if this isn't the kind of thing that should be posted here, please tell me so I don't do it again.

[Kirika]

My seventy five is pretty standard UB, not too much different from my Philly list other than the Dazes over Thoughtseize.

MD:

Creatures - 7
1 x Elesh Norn
1 x Sire of Insanity
1 x Admonition Angel
4 x Griselbrand

Spells - 38
2 x Show and Tell
4 x Careful Study
4 x Ponder
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Daze
4 x Force of Will
4 x Entomb
4 x Reanimate
4 x Exhume
4 x Lotus Petal

Lands - 15
1 x blue fetchland
2 x black fetchland
2 x Swamp
2 x Island
4 x Polluted Delta
4 x Underground Sea

SB - 15
1 x Silver Bullet Creature
2 x Massacre
3 x Pithing Needle
9 x other things

Iona has essentially been outmoded for reasons I outlined earlier in this thread, but generally - the decks that we have trouble with aren't just one relevant color with two irrelevant supports anymore, Sire can protect himself in more circumstances, Sire is less vulnerable to the allstar anti reanimator card Karakas, and on early turns Sire can completely demolish even an unknown opponent. Everywhere I want Iona, Sire is just as good and some times I want specifically Sire and not Iona, so Iona gets the nod. Iona was typically our first or second string anticombo measure, and Sire remains unbeatable there while also being incredible against midrange decks and things like Death and Taxes ( who will usually sand bag Karakas in hand until we commit life and resources to making a legend). Sire is just a punishing house, and was my favorite update to the deck before I found Admonition Angel as the catch all Vindicate Bullet. Just read a page or two back to find more thought out arguments for Sire - unfortunately it's 10:30 and I'm checking out of my hotel currently.

Thanks for the update. Is 15 lands sufficient to hit a landfall reliabily for the Angel? What do you think of running Abrupt Decay sideboard along with a Bayou and a Tropical Island over the 2 Show and Tell + 2 City of Traitors? It is weak to Surgical Extraction though.

[kingsey]

World,

How has 0 thought seize been?

What made you cut it?

[jcsy]

I spent some of this morning writing a Python script to see if I could numerically simulate what we have been talking about. The logic gets involved if I go beyond turn two, as is I'm sitting at ~250 lines and am taking a break. The following is not meant to be proof of any argument, I'm just sharing what I have done because I think it's cool and interesting.

the initial results are interesting however. The program follows these rules:
the only mulligans are hands with no lands, everything else is a keep, all lands are considered duals. We only mulligan down as far as 5. The used lists are the same: my list with a swap between hapless and ponder. We are always on the draw (Not sure why I did that, but as long as it's all the same, it shouldn't matter). Since we are worrying about going off on turn 2, ponder is always cast turn 1 (I know this has issues with careful study to dump turn one, but the logic I used is flawed, and so sometimes allows extra mana for the ponder player on turn two, which makes up for the turn 1 bad ponder, but it overcompensates a little). Also, ponder always shuffles if the hand+ponder doesn't have all necessary pieces.

I've had some trouble thinking of the some of the logic, specifically, what to do if ponder is cast turn one but the required combo is 3 mana, or if the combo is 2 mana but there is only one land available, also, I had some trouble thinking about how to deal with the card drawn on the second turn, which is a problem in both cases. Because of this, the numbers on both cases are slightly higher than they should be, with ponder being slightly higher still but that should be fine, we should still get a rough estimate.

Anyways, after running the numbers (repeated simulations of 10,000 trials), I am getting that with hapless, we get to go off turn 2 ~52% of the time, compared to ponder ~41%.

I am not saying this proves anything, the program is clearly flawed in multiple ways (which I will work on), but given the rules stated above I do think the results are interesting, it certainly points to (but does not prove) what Justin was saying regarding speed, though it obviously doesn't say anything about consistency as whole, only on turn 2, with very special rules. Magic is hard.

If anyone has any ideas on how to code this better or has done this already, I am genuinely curious of the outcome, any and all feedback is appreciated. Also, if this isn't the kind of thing that should be posted here, please tell me so I don't do it again.

this is exciting news, where we can actually see the potential of programming in calculating odds for this.. i remember nearly 1-2 years ago, someone came up with an excel spreadsheet to calculate brainstorm and ponder probabilities

this is impressive, but requires much input i believe on the plays and decisions to make

[ryanghall]

New to the deck.

Why is City of Traitors often played in the SB? Do you just side it in when Show and Tell is sided in? What do you side out for it?

[ubernostrum]

Went 3-1 in the 4:30PM Pacfiic time Legacy daily today. List is a bit weird because I originally planned to hop in the 8PM event instead, noticed this one was about to fire, and rushed to get in.

1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Grave Titan
3 Griselbrand
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Sire of Insanity

4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study
2 Gitaxian Probe
3 Ponder

1 Animate Dead
4 Entomb
3 Exhume
4 Reanimate
2 Show and Tell

4 Force of Will
3 Daze

3 Lotus Petal
4 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard:

1 Ashen Rider
1 Blazing Archon
2 City of Traitors
2 Duress
2 Echoing Truth
2 Flusterstorm
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 Pithing Needle
2 Show and Tell

Warm-up match before I realized a daily was about to start was against Elves. Game 1 had a turn-two Elesh Norn on the play. Game 2 answered his turn-one Deathrite with turn-one Iona. Apologized for being a horrible person.


Round 1: Burn

Game 1: Won the die roll, played a fetch and passed. He went Mountain, Goblin Guide. End of turn Entombed Griselbrand, untapped and Exhumed him. Griselbrand won that race.

Game 2: He had a triple Goblin Guide opener, I got no lands off it and went all the way down to 1 before I could Entomb/Exhume Griselbrand (Iona couldn't save me at that point). He was already tapped out from casting 3-point burn spells and sacrificed his only two Mountains to Fireblast in response to the Exhume, I had the Daze, and he didn't draw another land.

Round 2: Miracles

Game 1: He opened on basic Island so I pegged him as Miracles or combo. His second land was Karakas. I Reanimated Inkwell Leviathan and countered his Terminus.

Game 2: Had Inkwell + Careful Study in hand, so tried that one again. Got a Griselbrand a turn later and was able to counter both attempts at Terminus.

Round 3: Esper Stoneblade

Game 1: Got an early Griselbrand. It got there.

Game 2: Won a counter war over his Thoughtseize, then got to untap, Duress (seeing StP and Thoughtseize, taking StP) and Entomb/Reanimate Griselbrand. Then almost thought I'd thrown the game away when I had a gigantic hand and was discarding; I didn't scroll all the way and missed that I could have discarded a Sire and reanimated to seal the deal. Echoing Truth got me out of his topdecked Detention Sphere, I kept Jace off the board with countermagic, and that was that.

Round 4: Omnitell

Game 1: Thought he was on Sneak and Show and so played to keep him from having a spare red after resolving Show and Tell. Of course, he put in Omniscience, then Wished for the Petals of Insight and I conceded.

Game 2: We both just played lands and cantripped for a long time. Eventually he wished for Show and Tell and I let it resolve; I had Iona and Ashen Rider in hand. Chose Iona, naming blue. Was the wrong choice as he used Omniscience to cast the Emrakul he had in hand. Oops.

I'll be taking some derivative of this list to a paper event on Monday. Probably will keep the main unchanged. In the sideboard, I have been increasingly not a fan of trying to bring in Jaces and play control; I've kept the Cities for now to enable the Show and Tell plan, but might cut them in favor of more disruption. I feel like the deck is stronger when it just goes all-in on reanimation and packs whatever countermagic/disruption is necessary out of the board.

[cogitoergosum]

Though I usually don't play this version, I won a 50 man tournament earlier in the year with hapless instead of study, g probe over ponder, and cabal therapy over thoughtseize. Just figured I'd chime in, in support of non traditional brews

[TinkerRobot]

My LGS ran it's first Legacy FNM tonight (I know, my shop is awesome). I went 4-0 with Reanimator.

Played against 4C Loam (2-1), Affinity (2-0), Shardless BUG (2-0), and UR Delver (2-1), using a build with Daze, Petal, Careful Study, and Ponder. I am not against other builds, but I think this configuration allows us to play akin to a tempo deck, the only difference being we play Entomb/Reanimate instead of Delver of Secrets.

[redesign1991]

Hello everyone

I recently decided to build Reanimator since UW Stoneblade wasn't really my thing. I'd like to have some feedback on my list so far and the #'s of certain cards. Right now I'm not running Show and Tell and multiple copies of Underground Sea due to budget. Here's the list:

Creatures(7)
4x Griselbrand
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Tidespout Tyrant
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria

Spells(37)
2x Thoughtseize
3x Lotus Petal
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Entomb
4x Careful Study
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
4x Force of Will
4x Daze

Lands(16)
2x Flooded Strand
2x Verdant Catacombs
4x Polluted Delta
1x Underground Sea
4x Island
3x Swamp

I guess my biggest doubts right now would be the # of Petals, Dazes and Thoughtseizes in the main. Right now this might be less of a problem since I don't have Show and Tell yet. But I'm planning on getting those as my next big purchase (or 1 Underground Sea first). A part of me wants to optimize the Petals to go off as fast as possible. But the protection Daze offers is really important. The same goes for Thoughtseize, should it be a playset in the sideboard? Or should the Petals make place for the ultimate disruption and protection?

[ubernostrum]

Had to drop out of tonight's daily due to something else I thought would eat a bunch of time. Was 1-1, so no big loss.

Switched out Archon and a Needle from last night's sideboard for 2x Clique, and generally very happy with it. Clique has been very good for me against Miracles on the occasions I've tried it.

[Omega87]

Hey, I did 3-0-1 in our local store. Won all dice rolls (very nice;-)

1. Round vs. D&T
G1: fetch-> Go, He plays Wasteland + Vial, Reponse Fetch, Entomb Sire, Daze. My Turn Petal, Usea, Exhume Sire. he finds no outs in time, GG

Boarding out 3 dazes for Thoughtseize and Needles

G2: he starts plains Go. Kept a perfect hand, so i play Petal for Brainstorm, Usea for study, discard Grizzy, Petal for reanimate. End of my turn he plays StoP, but i still have my last Daze in hand, his 2. turn he plays spirit of labyrith, i draw 7 and force it. He conceeds.

2. Round vs Miracles
G1: my single random needle i played shuts of Top, Grizzy goes all the way.

Boarding: - Elesh Norn, 2 petals, 1 daze, 1 study, 1 reanimate
+ inkwell, 2 needles, 1 thougtseize, 2 spell pierce

G2: Counter Lock, with jace online. His game...
G3: Fetch Go, He tundra go, EoT entomb inkwell, my turn reanimate it, won the counter war with 1 spellpierce + FoW(Study). He boarded out his Terminus, so GG.

3. Round vs. ANT
G1: Iona on my turn 2 wins the game.

Boarding: -1 Swamp, - 2 Daze // + 1 Thoughtseize + 2 Spell Pierce

G2: His discard takes my FoW and a turn later he counts up to ten...
G2: We both discard everything, he casts AdN but doesn't get there due to his Probes and thoughtseizes. Next turn i can exhume grizzy (did not find a reanimation spell for 3 turns), GG

4. Round, unknown opponent offends to draw and so we split the prizes (which did not matter as 1st and 2nd, he got a promo Emrakul and i picked a snapcaster mage)
Later i found out he was on Elves...

This was my List:
http://www.mercadia.de/home/page.php?site=magic/deck2/deck&id=99068

[kingtk3]

this is exciting news, where we can actually see the potential of programming in calculating odds for this.. i remember nearly 1-2 years ago, someone came up with an excel spreadsheet to calculate brainstorm and ponder probabilities

this is impressive, but requires much input i believe on the plays and decisions to make

Here you go:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?8639-Deck-Reanimator&p=560048&viewfull=1#post560048
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?8639-Deck-Reanimator&p=561631&viewfull=1#post561631
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?8639-Deck-Reanimator&p=562373&viewfull=1#post562373

@Stryfo: thank you to bring up this lost treasure, I've never understood the reason why of a new thread when the old one had so much meaningful insights.

[klaus]

Hey, I did 3-0-1 in our local store. Won all dice rolls (very nice;-)

1. Round vs. D&T
G1: fetch-> Go, He plays Wasteland + Vial, Reponse Fetch, Entomb Sire, Daze. My Turn Petal, Usea, Exhume Sire. he finds no outs in time, GG

Boarding out 3 dazes for Thoughtseize and Needles

G2: he starts plains Go. Kept a perfect hand, so i play Petal for Brainstorm, Usea for study, discard Grizzy, Petal for reanimate. End of my turn he plays StoP, but i still have my last Daze in hand, his 2. turn he plays spirit of labyrith, i draw 7 and force it. He conceeds.

2. Round vs Miracles
G1: my single random needle i played shuts of Top, Grizzy goes all the way.

Boarding: - Elesh Norn, 2 petals, 1 daze, 1 study, 1 reanimate
+ inkwell, 2 needles, 1 thougtseize, 2 spell pierce

G2: Counter Lock, with jace online. His game...
G3: Fetch Go, He tundra go, EoT entomb inkwell, my turn reanimate it, won the counter war with 1 spellpierce + FoW(Study). He boarded out his Terminus, so GG.

3. Round vs. ANT
G1: Iona on my turn 2 wins the game.

Boarding: -1 Swamp, - 2 Daze // + 1 Thoughtseize + 2 Spell Pierce

G2: His discard takes my FoW and a turn later he counts up to ten...
G2: We both discard everything, he casts AdN but doesn't get there due to his Probes and thoughtseizes. Next turn i can exhume grizzy (did not find a reanimation spell for 3 turns), GG

4. Round, unknown opponent offends to draw and so we split the prizes (which did not matter as 1st and 2nd, he got a promo Emrakul and i picked a snapcaster mage)
Later i found out he was on Elves...

This was my List:
http://www.mercadia.de/home/page.php?site=magic/deck2/deck&id=99068

Boarding out Daze against ANT makes no sense imo.
ANT is facing threatening clocks and will not have the chance to wait another turn to be out of Daze range more often than not.
I'd rather take out -1 Ponder, -1 Careful Study instead to make room for + 1 Thoughtseize + 2 Spell Pierce from the board.

[klaus]

Hey, I did 3-0-1 in our local store. Won all dice rolls (very nice;-)

1. Round vs. D&T
G1: fetch-> Go, He plays Wasteland + Vial, Reponse Fetch, Entomb Sire, Daze. My Turn Petal, Usea, Exhume Sire. he finds no outs in time, GG

Boarding out 3 dazes for Thoughtseize and Needles

G2: he starts plains Go. Kept a perfect hand, so i play Petal for Brainstorm, Usea for study, discard Grizzy, Petal for reanimate. End of my turn he plays StoP, but i still have my last Daze in hand, his 2. turn he plays spirit of labyrith, i draw 7 and force it. He conceeds.

2. Round vs Miracles
G1: my single random needle i played shuts of Top, Grizzy goes all the way.

Boarding: - Elesh Norn, 2 petals, 1 daze, 1 study, 1 reanimate
+ inkwell, 2 needles, 1 thougtseize, 2 spell pierce

G2: Counter Lock, with jace online. His game...
G3: Fetch Go, He tundra go, EoT entomb inkwell, my turn reanimate it, won the counter war with 1 spellpierce + FoW(Study). He boarded out his Terminus, so GG.

3. Round vs. ANT
G1: Iona on my turn 2 wins the game.

Boarding: -1 Swamp, - 2 Daze // + 1 Thoughtseize + 2 Spell Pierce

G2: His discard takes my FoW and a turn later he counts up to ten...
G2: We both discard everything, he casts AdN but doesn't get there due to his Probes and thoughtseizes. Next turn i can exhume grizzy (did not find a reanimation spell for 3 turns), GG

4. Round, unknown opponent offends to draw and so we split the prizes (which did not matter as 1st and 2nd, he got a promo Emrakul and i picked a snapcaster mage)
Later i found out he was on Elves...

This was my List:
http://www.mercadia.de/home/page.php?site=magic/deck2/deck&id=99068

Boarding out Daze against ANT makes no sense imo.
ANT is facing threatening clocks and will not have the chance to wait another turn to be out of Daze range more often than not.
I'd rather take out (-1 Swamp) -1 Tidespout Tyrant, -1 Careful Study/Ponder instead to make room for + 1 Thoughtseize + 2 Spell Pierce from the board.

[Omega87]

I played ant long enough for myself, so if he is a good player, it is very easy to play around daze. On the other hand, he does not know that we are siding them out, so he will most likely play around it which costs him time to run straight into a spell pierce. In my opinion, it is more important to take his tutors with thoughtseize than hoping that daze will matter in some point of play. Usually this game isn't finished in the first two turns due to discard.

[Nuke is Good]

Took Reanimator to a LGS for a legacy event. I was about to take Punishing Jund to the event but my friend reminded me that the meta is going to be less diverse than a SCG Meta and you are going to run into Burn a lot more than you think. Boy was he right.

I play U/B with 2/2 Lotus Petal and Daze Split.
Creatures in Mainboard
1 Iona
4 Russelbrand
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Elesh Norn

Sideboard Creatures
1 Gilded Drake
1 Grave Titan

Burn G1 Guy never used the pyrostatic pillar and didn't understand the effect goes both ways and actually killed himself. Never damaged me due to a Turn 2 Empyrial Archangel. G2 Powered out a turn 1 Iona on Red

Shardless BUG G1 I draw no tutors so for the first few turns he is beating on me with a goyf, DRS, and a baleful strix. I waited for him to tap out his only bayou then I Careful studied both my Elesh Norn and Empyrial Archangel into a double exhume. G2 I felt like I was playing against Jund. He gets two lucky cascades into Ancestral visions and he has two DRS. My pithing needle gets countered then I face the might of a really really goyf. G3 I pithing needle DRS. He thoughtseizes, extripates my exhume, then drops a nihil spellbomb. I eventually hardcast a gravetitan that he forces. I bait out a Reanimate then triggers spellbomb. I forget what happens inbetween here but all I remember is that I had Elesh in the graveyard and the only way I could put it into play was reanimate and I had only 4 life so I conceded.

Burn G1 Nothing new here T1 Iona G2 Empyrial Archangel on Turn 3, he double fireblasts it and the next turn I show and tell Griselbrand and he scoops.

Burn (notice a theme?) G1 Turn 4 Show and Tell into Griselbrand but he drops a Sulfuric Vortex. I was down to 11 when the vortex went down and I took a double fireblast along with elemental tokens beating me to death. G2 Turn 2 Iona then responded by a Karakas (this gave me a HUUUUUUUUUGE wtf in my mind). Turn 4 I exhumed Empyrial Archangel and stole victory 4 turns later. G3 Turn 3 Iona

I didn't make top 4 but I was quite happy. My bud playing UR Delver decided to split and that was that. I love Jund but if I brought it to that kind of metagame I would have cried. I'd probably bring Jund to GPNJ unless I get that much better with Reanimator by then.

Side remark I will say is, one player has something against Death and Taxes (boy me and him would get along part of the reason I run the shroud creature mainboarded) actually brought Jund to counter the D&T player only for the D&T player not to show up.

[atosecond]

Whatever happened to the builds with personal tutor?

I have been trying it out as a 3 of cutting 2 lotus petals and a reanimate and it works well. Helps a lot with a show and tell s/b plan and DnT match up by letting me tutor for massacre.

I am sure there is a good reason people moved away from it and I realise it is no mystical tutor, but I can't figure out why.

[Nuke is Good]

Whatever happened to the builds with personal tutor?

I have been trying it out as a 3 of cutting 2 lotus petals and a reanimate and it works well. Helps a lot with a show and tell s/b plan and DnT match up by letting me tutor for massacre.

I am sure there is a good reason people moved away from it and I realise it is no mystical tutor, but I can't figure out why.

I would imagine its good sideboard. But I don't like it since it's sorcery speed, kinda expensive for what it is, and I'd rather have petals for more explosiveness.

[TinkerRobot]

Played another Legacy FNM with Reanimator. Went 4-0 last time, only 3-1 overall this time.

Round 1 vs Team America (Not ever going to call this deck Sultai Delver), 2-1
Game 1 I don't see any Delvers, but I put him on this deck instead of Shardless because I see Spell Pierce.
After our matches he tells me he only runs 1 Liliana in the 75, which I can't imagine is correct. He is on Tombstalker over Bob also.

Round 2 vs Elves, 2-1
What should have been a bye, I punted pretty hard, saying "Sure" as he casts a Deathrite Shaman g1 instead of Dazing it. Easily get there with Elesh Norn games 2&3. Engineered Explosives is also sweet here.

Round 3 vs Patriot, 0-2
This is a tough matchup. No way around that. Swords to Plowshares is a beating and Batterskull is a reasonable way to race us combined with Bolts. I kept a somewhat loose hand game 2. I think it was

Lotus Petal
City of Traitors
Jace, TMS
Show and Tell
Show and Tell
Thoughtseize
Brainstorm

Would you fellow Reanimator players have kept that against a Delver player? I ended up trying to Brainstorm into a land, off the Petal and locking myself out for a few turns, after which point it was too late.

Round 4 vs Death and Taxes, 2-1
Much to my chagrin, I was paired against Karakas.dec. I get there with Inkwell Leviathan games 1 & 3. I think my creature suite (Grave Titan and Inkwell main) is much more prepared to beat this deck than other Reanimator players.

[jake556]

I was curious since Griselbeans is $1,000,000 dollars on MODO what would be the 8 creatures to run that are not GB? Iona, Elesh, Inkwell, Jin- Gitaxias x2, Grave Titan, Blazing archon, Ashen Rider? Jin used to be good :(

[PirateKing]

Would you fellow Reanimator players have kept that against a Delver player? I ended up trying to Brainstorm into a land, off the Petal and locking myself out for a few turns, after which point it was too late.

I would not have kept that hand. The hand you were seeking through the Brainstorm had better odds of being met through a mulligan, and the cons, well you experienced the cons. If it was Ponder, I would have been tempted, but I still think the deck's strong enough to offer up a random 6 that doesn't offer up a first turn play with a slight risk of just outright losing the game. But Petal into Brainstorm is just too stacked toward irreparable loss.

[Nuke is Good]

I was curious since Griselbeans is $1,000,000 dollars on MODO what would be the 8 creatures to run that are not GB? Iona, Elesh, Inkwell, Jin- Gitaxias x2, Grave Titan, Blazing archon, Ashen Rider? Jin used to be good :(

I've only used Griselbrand like maybe 2-3 times in Reanimator (I tend to go after particular silver bullets) Russel Brand is a pretty good catch all card.

Cards to reanimate if you don't have Russel Brand:
Jin
Sire of Insanity
Elesh Norn
Inkwell Leviathan
Empyrial Archangel (It's a nice damage sponge)
Grave Titan

[Stryfo]

if you're building reanimator anyways, I see no reason why you can't have just one griselbrand, I understand not wanting to shell out for 3 or 4, but having the first one is big game because of entomb. also, pretty sure 7 creatures is the right number. the 7 I would run are:

1 grisel
2 Jin (unless you want to run all 1 ofs)
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 elesh
1 iona (or grave titan or sire, depending on the context of the list)
1 inkwell leviathan

[entreri_fans]

Played another Legacy FNM with Reanimator. Went 4-0 last time, only 3-1 overall this time.

Round 1 vs Team America (Not ever going to call this deck Sultai Delver), 2-1
Game 1 I don't see any Delvers, but I put him on this deck instead of Shardless because I see Spell Pierce.
After our matches he tells me he only runs 1 Liliana in the 75, which I can't imagine is correct. He is on Tombstalker over Bob also.

Round 2 vs Elves, 2-1
What should have been a bye, I punted pretty hard, saying "Sure" as he casts a Deathrite Shaman g1 instead of Dazing it. Easily get there with Elesh Norn games 2&3. Engineered Explosives is also sweet here.

Round 3 vs Patriot, 0-2
This is a tough matchup. No way around that. Swords to Plowshares is a beating and Batterskull is a reasonable way to race us combined with Bolts. I kept a somewhat loose hand game 2. I think it was

Lotus Petal
City of Traitors
Jace, TMS
Show and Tell
Show and Tell
Thoughtseize
Brainstorm

Would you fellow Reanimator players have kept that against a Delver player? I ended up trying to Brainstorm into a land, off the Petal and locking myself out for a few turns, after which point it was too late.

Round 4 vs Death and Taxes, 2-1
Much to my chagrin, I was paired against Karakas.dec. I get there with Inkwell Leviathan games 1 & 3. I think my creature suite (Grave Titan and Inkwell main) is much more prepared to beat this deck than other Reanimator players.

Hi, Round 3 Game 2, your opening hand is really risky I think, as you need to hit both a land and a fatty post brainstorm to go off soon.

What makes me really curious is JTMS. I once tried to add Jace to Reanimator, but feel we are too mana short to cast him, even with the potential help of postboard City of Traitors. Would you please to share your thought on this card?

[TinkerRobot]

What makes me really curious is JTMS. I once tried to add Jace to Reanimator, but feel we are too mana short to cast him, even with the potential help of postboard City of Traitors. Would you please to share your thought on this card?
I played this deck for about 2 years without Jace, and it felt fine. After adding it several months ago, I would not play without it. Firstly, it only comes in when I'm bringing in City of Traitors (of which I sideboard 2 copies), and I typically won't side out all my petals (sometimes from 3 main to 2 postboard). Generally I side it in against decks that won't be able to kill me before it resolves, of which UWR Delver is a great example. The unsummon ability is very pertinent, and it allows us to shift from a tempo plan to something more similar to Omni, wherein you can Brainstorm your way into sufficient countermagic to protect your spells.

[Just me]

I played this deck for about 2 years without Jace, and it felt fine. After adding it several months ago, I would not play without it. Firstly, it only comes in when I'm bringing in City of Traitors (of which I sideboard 2 copies), and I typically won't side out all my petals (sometimes from 3 main to 2 postboard). Generally I side it in against decks that won't be able to kill me before it resolves, of which UWR Delver is a great example. The unsummon ability is very pertinent, and it allows us to shift from a tempo plan to something more similar to Omni, wherein you can Brainstorm your way into sufficient countermagic to protect your spells.

I like Liliana there. It's a lot cheaper in terms of mana and the discarding actually helps our plan. Having them sac creatures is also nice if need be (sac your Goyf please, no let me use it (Reanimate) to smash your face).

[Just me]

Treasure Cruise is hailed as a BIG new card from Khans by Carsten Kotter of Starcity.

CC 7U
Card Text: Delve (Each card you exile from your graveyard while casting this spell pays for 1.)
Draw three cards.

In Reanimator, with Petals, Careful Study, Brainstorm, Ponder, fetchlands and cheap/fast counters like FOW and Daze this seems like a contender. What to cut is a great question, but I´m thinking Ponder.

T1 Study of a fetch = 4 cards in the yard already! So instead of 8 it´s just 4 mana after a single turn. Add a Brainstorm, Petal etc. to this and we have an Ancestral Recall! Or maybe a 2cc draw 3 effect, not shabby either.
Removing cards from the yard is not a big deal, most cards in there are a product of finding the combo. Just don´t delve a Fatty away :wink:.

What do you all think?

[PirateKing]

I think Dig Through Time is the better card here.

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/ktk/8arg43u984398yf/en_877icbxucp.png

Costs UU and 6 cards, but it's an instant, allowing us to EOT and set up for a critical Reanimate on our turn. We're a combo deck, trying to assemble our bits & protection, seeing the best of 7 is going to help more than a random 3.

However, it's super risky, because we're already going to feel the brunt of graveyard hate, having two or three dead cards isn't going to put us in any a better spot. Also, while builds vary, most aspire for a fast clock, coveting the first turn Griselbrand, and maintaining par on turn 2. Everything after that is the struggle that moves us closer to losing. This card and Treasure Cruise are right in that window of a turn after we would have been wanting to give it a go anyway.

It seems more at home in a slow reanimator deck, without Petals or Dazes, or a Sneak & Show deck, where draw-cantrip-go is an acceptable tempo for turns 1-3.

It's frustrating, because I'd like this card to work, give us and up in consistency game 1 and then side them out for more Show and Tell game 2 when they graveyard hate comes in anyway. But it's too slow game 1, and right on speed for a Show & Tell plan, except is dead in the face of Leyline of the Void.

I'll be testing both, but my eye is on Dig.

[Nuke is Good]

My problem with the Delve cards are that they are so high costing by the time we have enough cards in the yard we should have combo'd out already. On game 2 where they bring the graveyard hate especially Rest in Peace it makes it those delve cards basically a dead card.

But that is my opinion, I value speed in this deck as I pack a Petal/Daze split.

[Captain Hammer]

If I was going to play delve cards, I would be really tempted to splash red to play 4 Faithless Looting and either Burning Wish or maybe even a Gamble or two. Synergy baby!

Red has so much cool stuff to offer this deck pre and postboard that I'm surprised the red splash isn't more common.

[limbo]

Given the amount of graveyard hate, and peoples' typical strategies for dealing with the S&T package post-board, is their any validity to alternative sideboard plan such as 4 pack rat? They play fine with the main game plan and are quite strong against the control decks and UWR delver. A board plan like this would likely mean running 2 or fewer petals in the main in favor of real lands (15-17 total). Anyone think it is an option?

[Stryfo]

I'm slightly biased as I believe I was the first with the idea (though I'm only playing 3), but in my experience, yes, pack rat is very strong against blue decks, but gets worse against decks that don't board out removal (non-blue decks) The hard part is boarding to keep the combo strong, but with a lot of thought a good plan can be made.

[kingsey]

I'm playing a standard list. I'd like to try and fit 4 g probes into the main for information, and also swapping the thought seizes to cabal therapy to nab multiples. Has anyone tried this? I can drop main board daze and perhaps show and tell?

Most decks don't have hate g1 anyway.

Sent from my phone sorry about the block of text.

[TinkerRobot]

I have been testing with Treasure Cruise. Matchups tested against BUG Delver, Dredge, Death and Taxes so far. In the Daze/Lotus shell, I feel this card does not have a place. As others have said, it isn't active in the early game (usually castable by tapping out turn 2), and it gets sided out when opponents bring in grave hate. If anyone wants to try it out, I think 2 copies is about ideal, though 0 is probably better.

[PirateKing]

I'm playing a standard list. I'd like to try and fit 4 g probes into the main for information, and also swapping the thought seizes to cabal therapy to nab multiples. Has anyone tried this? I can drop main board daze and perhaps show and tell?

Most decks don't have hate g1 anyway.

Sent from my phone sorry about the block of text.

What is this doing that Thoughtseize alone isn't doing?

[atosecond]

I think an argument could be made for therapy over thoughtseize on the grounds it hit multiple, but I would only ever do this at a local store where the meta was very solid and steady. Therapy is a challenging card to play at the best of times, but I would never play it with git probes. I may be old fashioned, but therapy was played fine without probing for years and I don't think diluting or slowing down the main deck to give yourself that, admittedly useful, crutch makes sense, especially when thoughtseize exists.

If you are going to run therapy, you probably want to do so in a list with grave titan in the main, because you get considerably more value off of it.

It's possible a 3/1 split or 2/2 might be appropriate but to be honest, I think most players will want one or the other. That said, there have been a number of occasions where I have wished a top deck thoughtseize was a therapy, especially when I am sitting on low life (eg after reanimated Russell brand gets karakas'd or Lilli'd). In short, there may be some merit to therapy as a long game "alive" top deck, but odds are we aren't winning the games where a therapy is castable but a thoughtseize isn't anyways.

[Howishotgun]

Looking for some advice on how to sideboard this deck. I can understand which cards to bring in against what match ups, but i cannot figure out which cards you board out. Any input or advice will be greatly appreciated.

My list:
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Swamp
2 Bloodstaind Mire
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
Lands(16)

4 Griselbrand
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Tidespout Tyrant
Creatures(7)

4 Force of Will
4 Entomb
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
4 Careful Study
4 Brainstorm
3 Thoughtseize
3 Ponder
2 Daze
2 Show and Tell
Instant Sorceries(35)

3 Lotus Petal
Other Spells(2)

Sideboard~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
3 Pithing Needle
2 Show and Tell
2 Massacre
2 City of Traitors
2 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
1 Echoing Truths
1 Ashen Rider
1 Inkwell Leviathan

[TinkerRobot]

Howishotgun, we run very similar lists. Generally speaking there are several cards that I consider to be "regular cuts," meaning they can be cut without diluting the combo too much. Those cards to me are Lotus Petal, Ponder, and Exhume. Now, I'm not going to ever cut all copies of all three cards, but shaving one or two of each for dedicated slots in a given matchup will increase the overall power level of the deck. For example, in a matchup where I want to bring in 5 cards, I'll usually cut 2 Petals, 2 Ponders, and an Exhume.

However there is a bit more thought that goes into the process. If you have any experience playing a Daze deck in legacy, you know that the card can be removed in games where you'll be on the draw for lack of efficacy. Therefore, in the example above, if I want to bring in 5 cards, but I'm on the draw, I'll cut 2 Daze, 2 Ponder, and a Lotus Petal.

Since Show and Tell + City of Traitors is our most commonly sided in package (I'd say at least one of each comes in at least 80% of the time), it's important to understand that Petals are only cuttable because we're bringing in more mana anyway.

Then there are matchup dependant cuts that aren't totally obvious. I take out Force of Will and Daze against Death and Taxes, because they have Vial, and we really only care about Wasteland and Karakas. I take out Exhume against Dredge, because the symmetrical spell will often cost us the game.

Anyway, sideboarding is really something that comes with practice. Good luck!

[Howishotgun]

Howishotgun, we run very similar lists. Generally speaking there are several cards that I consider to be "regular cuts," meaning they can be cut without diluting the combo too much. Those cards to me are Lotus Petal, Ponder, and Exhume. Now, I'm not going to ever cut all copies of all three cards, but shaving one or two of each for dedicated slots in a given matchup will increase the overall power level of the deck. For example, in a matchup where I want to bring in 5 cards, I'll usually cut 2 Petals, 2 Ponders, and an Exhume.

However there is a bit more thought that goes into the process. If you have any experience playing a Daze deck in legacy, you know that the card can be removed in games where you'll be on the draw for lack of efficacy. Therefore, in the example above, if I want to bring in 5 cards, but I'm on the draw, I'll cut 2 Daze, 2 Ponder, and a Lotus Petal.

Since Show and Tell + City of Traitors is our most commonly sided in package (I'd say at least one of each comes in at least 80% of the time), it's important to understand that Petals are only cuttable because we're bringing in more mana anyway.

Then there are matchup dependant cuts that aren't totally obvious. I take out Force of Will and Daze against Death and Taxes, because they have Vial, and we really only care about Wasteland and Karakas. I take out Exhume against Dredge, because the symmetrical spell will often cost us the game.

Anyway, sideboarding is really something that comes with practice. Good luck!

Thank you! this is exactly what i was looking for.

[GoldenCid]

Hi you all!!

New to the deck! Just got my set of reanimate!
:laugh:

Some few question:

-Is griselbrand the most desireable creature for reanimating ever? Does it apply to all games?
-Does anybody miss empyreal archangel?

thx in advance!!

GC

[Worldslayer]

Hi you all!!

New to the deck! Just got my set of reanimate!
:laugh:

Some few question:

-Is griselbrand the most desireable creature for reanimating ever? Does it apply to all games?
-Does anybody miss empyreal archangel?

thx in advance!!

GC

Griselbrand is your default mode. Unless one of your (usually three) silver bullets happens to crush the match (think Elesh Norn vs. Elves, Tidespout or AA vs. Show and Tell, or Sire vs. Combo), you make a Griselbrand.

In the dark, I make a Griselbrand. The card is basically the reason reanimator is even playable.

No, I don't particularly miss Empyrial.

[Will_L]

I've played a very typical ReAnimator in a couple of legacy events recently. 0 daze, 4 petal, 3 seize, 7 fatties and the rest is quadlazer I think... 2 shows main, 2 side with 2 cities. I top 4'd both in an 18 and 23 person event

I play 4, grisel, 1 elesh, 1 iona, 1 inkwell leviathan...

I wanted to discuss the 7th fatty slot (non iona/grisel/elesh) I have read about cutting Iona main for Sire and other singleton bombs but I still think she is too good to cut MD... Is it purely a meta call? Obviously Inkwell is better against Miracles and D&T since it dodges Karakas and Swords to Plowshares... But Tidespout can beat ensnaring bridge...

[Worldslayer]

I've played a very typical ReAnimator in a couple of legacy events recently. 0 daze, 4 petal, 3 seize, 7 fatties and the rest is quadlazer I think... 2 shows main, 2 side with 2 cities. I top 4'd both in an 18 and 23 person event

I play 4, grisel, 1 elesh, 1 iona, 1 inkwell leviathan...

I wanted to discuss the 7th fatty slot (non iona/grisel/elesh) I have read about cutting Iona main for Sire and other singleton bombs but I still think she is too good to cut MD... Is it purely a meta call? Obviously Inkwell is better against Miracles and D&T since it dodges Karakas and Swords to Plowshares... But Tidespout can beat ensnaring bridge...

We've went over most of this in the thread already, but generally - Unless your meta is entirely Omnitell and Elves, Sire largely outmodes Iona. You want a catch all like Tyrant, Angel, or Archon otherwise you potentially just get gibbed game 1 by SnT or some of the weird shit legacy throws at you. Considering game 1 is when we're strongest and 2/3 are uphill battles, that's mostly unacceptable.

Death and Taxes is a winnable game 1 without resorting to things like Inkwell. Hell, half the time they can put enough guys on the board to just trade with it before they're dead. Miracles, the thing is just eating a Terminus anyway.

[GoldenCid]

What is sire? Sorry

Enviado desde mi XT890 mediante Tapatalk

[Bobmans]

What is sire? Sorry

Sire of Insanity

[GoldenCid]

Mm...like jin gitaxias instead

Enviado desde mi XT890 mediante Tapatalk

[Worldslayer]

Mm...like jin gitaxias instead

Enviado desde mi XT890 mediante Tapatalk

Not that a comment that short really merits response, but fuck it, I'm feeling froggy.

1) Jin Gitaxias is a smaller body for four more mana. Though the actual mana cost is usually irrelevant, I have casted Sire fairly regularly. Four life is also four life.

2) Jin is actually much more vulnerable than Sire in a format where REB and the like are borderline maindeckable cards.

3) Karakas. If you're playing reanimator and have two similar creatures, one of which is legendary, you opt for the nonlegendary. The less Karakas irritates you game 1, the better. Since Sire is actually my game 1 go to against Karakas decks, I'd prefer him to not be legendary and bounced off the top.

Jin hasn't been playable since Griselbrand, and was questionable before that.

[PirateKing]

I've played a very typical ReAnimator in a couple of legacy events recently. 0 daze, 4 petal, 3 seize, 7 fatties and the rest is quadlazer I think... 2 shows main, 2 side with 2 cities. I top 4'd both in an 18 and 23 person event

I play 4, grisel, 1 elesh, 1 iona, 1 inkwell leviathan...

I wanted to discuss the 7th fatty slot (non iona/grisel/elesh) I have read about cutting Iona main for Sire and other singleton bombs but I still think she is too good to cut MD... Is it purely a meta call? Obviously Inkwell is better against Miracles and D&T since it dodges Karakas and Swords to Plowshares... But Tidespout can beat ensnaring bridge...

Iona in the main seems poor, she crushes select matches sure, but is underwhelming on a lot of match ups that we struggle with already. I have her in my side to be brought in when I know what I'm up against. Tidespout does more to a broader base of opponents and offers outs in an effective way that's difficult to stop. I'd main him over Iona. Another non legendary to consider is Grave Titan. Low life loss and dodging edict effects is nice. 10 power with blockers on the back swing isn't anything to shrug off either. I'd run either Grave Titan or Inkwell, depending on your meta call.

[GoldenCid]

Not that a comment that short really merits response, but fuck it, I'm feeling froggy.

1) Jin Gitaxias is a smaller body for four more mana. Though the actual mana cost is usually irrelevant, I have casted Sire fairly regularly. Four life is also four life.

2) Jin is actually much more vulnerable than Sire in a format where REB and the like are borderline maindeckable cards.

3) Karakas. If you're playing reanimator and have two similar creatures, one of which is legendary, you opt for the nonlegendary. The less Karakas irritates you game 1, the better. Since Sire is actually my game 1 go to against Karakas decks, I'd prefer him to not be legendary and bounced off the top.

Jin hasn't been playable since Griselbrand, and was questionable before that.

Ya, your right...thx for answering like that!

I sincerely forgot that Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur was legendary. I focused myself on the "go for seven cards and discard opo hand" jin has and at worst you can pitch it to FoW. But as your said, griselda supply it role quite well.....at cost of 7 life but it's indeed ok.
Anyway im not maindeckig jin or sire....my fatties nowadays are:

4 Griselbrand
1 Elesh norn
1 Iona
1 Tyrant

SB fatties:

Blazing archon
Asher Rider

[Fatal]

Hi,

I wanted to share a list which is more focused on actual meta filled with tempo decks and controls:


4 Entomb
4 Reanimate
4 Force of Will
4 Careful Study
4 Brainstorm
4 Griselbrand
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Tidespout Tyrant
4 Exhume
1 Animate Dead
2 Unmask
2 Treasure Cruise
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Watery Grave
2 Foil
2 Misdirection
2 Tropical Island
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Hapless Researcher
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Show and Tell
//SB
1 Grave Titan
4 Pithing Needle
1 Inkwell Leviathan
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Tropical Island
1 Ashen Rider
2 Thoughtsieze
2 Show and Tell


Aim:

More focused on speed but still containing proper count of disruption and countermagic - to have answers vs MD answers like Shaman. I also want to fill gap which occure quite often - not drawing hardcounter vs removal after drawing 7 cards from Grisel.

cards selection and explanations:

creatures:
4 Griselbrand
1 Iona
1 Tyrant
1 Elesh

It's rather standard, only 4 of Grisel can be debatable - but IMO its still the best target to reanimate specially in this build which focused on permission.

Enablers and combo:
4 Entomb
4 Careful
1 Hapless Researcher - this dude was used in few list and prove to be very good - worth a slot as instant speed enabler and blocker (specially with 7 creature build)
2 Foils - this one is new (or rather very oldschool) it brings more permission and also speed which can be very good specially on draw. Running Foils bring restriction on mana base which was not easy to set up properly between Island count (12) and fetchlands (5) needed to shuffle after brainstorm.

4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
1 Animate Dead - with Decay's running all around its actually the worst reanimation
1 Show and Tell - running one MD - thinking to bump to 2 but still need to test what to cut - sometimes he just played turn 1 shaman or RiP with protection which you can't handle normally and need to go other route

disrupt and permission - this configuration is totally new

I hate dazes since they so fast useless mostly - any good player can just overplay them, they also useless mostly after turn 1-2. Mostly you need two mana to go of with dazes this mean timewalk for opponent.
Thoughtsieze - its very very good (effect) but mostly this mean after reanimating one set of 7 cards less which I also don't like - anti-synergy.

4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection - works well vs permission, removal or discard
2 Foils - great but not more then 2, works good as discard outlet poor in multiple
2 Unmask - to have thoughtsieze effect - which really works. Works great even without mana which many times occur after combo.

Since 10 cards are almost always 2 for 1 we need support when opponent draws to well - new cards from Khans works great here:

2 Treasure Cruise - still not decide is it worth - we fill gy very very fast - with 10 free spells and careful study with can easy play it turn 2-3.

4 Brainstorm - not need to explain
0 Ponder - this is probably questionable - TC occupies those slots, I mostly don't like too many cantrips in reanimator since it works on when go of turn 2, after its mostly game for opponent (Liliana, Jaces etc) so cantriping to assemble combo is sometimes dead end route.

Manabase:
18 lands total - losing to stifle, or waste is not an option.
3 Basics
6 duals
4 Shocklands
5 fetches

Colors:
14 black sources
17 Blue sources
7 green sources - used only to sb, 1 source in sb.

SB:

Main threads - gy hate:

1. Permanent-based:

RiP

Artifact hate (Crypt, Relic, Spellbomb)

Deathrite Shaman

Ooze


Only most of them works Needle or Decay.
4 Pithing Needle
3 Abrupt Decay

Spell based:

Surgical Extraction
Permission

Countermagic - MD mostly enough.

Other

Ensnaring Bridge

Counterbalance - can really fast lock down - Abrupt resolve it.

Liliana - Abrupt and Needle also works here.

Karakas - Needle

Filling creatures to some matchups:
Grave Titan - works very well vs S&T and BUG (which is very though MU).
Raider - as removal and mirror
Inkwell - Lands (heavy Maze MU).

S&T - too focused on anti-gy hate decks - look out in MU which can running Humility.

[Nuke is Good]

I took Reanimator to SCG New Jersey today because I was missing a card in Jund but wasn't sure what it was and time was running short. I dunno if that ended up being a good thing or bad thing. I've come to the conclusion I'm bad at this deck/using counterspells in general. Record 3-4

My list:

Main Deck (60)
Creatures (7)
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Empyrial Archangel
4 Griselbrand
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
Spells (37)
2 Lotus Petal
1 Spell Pierce
2 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study
4 Entomb
4 Reanimate
1 Animate Dead
2 Daze
4 Exhume
2 Show and Tell
4 Force of Will
Lands (16)
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Island
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
Sideboard (15)
1 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
1 Flusterstorm
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Pithing Needle
3 Duress
1 Echoing Truth
1 Gilded Drake
2 Show and Tell
1 Grave Titan

Round 1 TES
G1 I drop an Underground Sea and he goes storm 14 on me T1.
SB
-1 Elesh Norn
+3 Duress
+1 Flusterstorm
-1 Animate Dead
-1 Exhume
-1 Reanimate
G2
In my infinite wisdom I decided to keep a hand where I could go the SnT plan on turn 3 but I had no mana open for the lone spell pierce so I get tendriled on turn 2.

Round 2 RUG Delver
G1 He sticks a nimble mongoose so I immediately knew what I was dealing with and was dreading what was to come since I kept a hand full of fetches. I got stifled to no end and I got beaten in by a Goyf.
-1 Animate Dead
-2 Exhume
-1 Reanimate
-1 Entomb
-2 Careful Study
+2 Chain of Vapor
+1 Ancient Tomb
+1 City of Traitors
+2 Show and Tell
+1 Flusterstorm
G2
I walked into his counters big time. I casted Reanimate twice in a turn only to get forced and dazed. I did manage to get a Griselbrand in the graveyard but my health was already down to 5 so my Reanimate was of no use. I just remember I took a V. Clique to the face and a lightning bolt for lethal.

Round 3 Doomsday
G1 He drops a Underground Sea and a SDT which made me wonder what he had so on my turn I thoughtseized him and saw predicts, dark ritual, and doomsday. I had no idea how that deck works so I decided to go after doomsday itself. I show and tell an Iona naming Black thinking I had the game, the next turn he uses chain of vapors on it. For the next few turns he spins the tops and cantrips. I managed to use Careful Study to put an Empyrial Archangel in the graveyard to exhume it that same turn. The archangel gets me the win after 4 turns of swinging.
SB
-1 Elesh Norn
-2 Daze
-1 Reanimate
-1 Animate Dead
-1 Exhume
-1 Entomb
+2 Chain of Vapors
+1 Echoing Turth
+3 Duress
G2 I keep a hand with 2 duresses, an Underground Sea, two brainstorms, and a force.
Turn 1 He cabal therapy calling force of will. I then for the next two turns used duress. He is stuck with a underground sea for a while.I removed his force and doomsday again. Turn 4 or so I had a thoughtseize and decided to thoughtseize myself to put Griselbrand in the yard. Casting reanimate on Russel Brand. He was going to cast SDT I payed 7 for 7 cards and spell pierced. After that he was jut drawing cards until griselbrand ended the game.

Round 4 Junk
G1 Feeling good I do a show and tell only to see a Baneslayer Angel vs my Griselbrand. With the angel in play I couldn't do much he got out a Courser of Kruphix and just started expanding his board really fast. I exhumed another Empyrial Archangel but eventually Sun Titan came out and he just had so many creatures out I couldn't do anything.
SB
I do not remember I do remember just using the SnT Plan
I don't remember my moves I do remember him sacing his academy rector to bring out a humility. And I was just desperately looking for my Chain of Vapors and Echoing Truths to no avail.

Round 5 Sneak and Show
G1 I had an amazing hand: Show and Tell, Underground Sea, Lotus Petal x2, Griselbrand, Daze, Force of Will. I did show and tell and I see an opposing Emakrul.
SB
+1 Gilded Drake
+1 Flusterstorm
+2 Chain of Vapors
+2 Duress
+2 Pithing Needle
-1 Animate Dead
-2 Entomb
-1 Reanimate
-3 Careful Study
-1 Elesh Norn
G2 I kept a sketchy hand but had thoughtseize and a duress. His second turn I see the Boseiju land card which made me a little sad. We both end up goldfishing for seriously like 6 turns until he just dumps three lotus petals and Sneak Attack I try to counter it with Force but he uses an uncounter force. Then I face the wrath of Emakrul and Griselbrand.

Little did I know in this matchup they board out their show and tells so gilded drake was a dead card.

Round 6 Elves
G1 On the end of his first turn I see a Quiron Ranger so I knew what I had to do. I entombed an elesh norn and exhumed it resulting in a scoop.
-1 Reanimate
-1 Animate Dead
-3 Thoughtseize
-2 Entomb
+2 Show and Tell
+2 Chain of Vapor
+1 Echoing Truth
+2 Pithing Needle

G2 I made a huge series of misplays. I discarded both Griselbrands from a careful study, then he ripped my hand apart with cabal therapies. Deathrite Shaman basically killed me with the -2 life.
G3 I mull to 6 and he mulls to 5. I cast a turn 2 SnT and Iona on Green. Next turn turns he tries to search for an answer but cannot.

Round 7 Jund Depths
G1 As soon as I saw the Taiga I assumed it was Belcher and was bracing for the worst, he passed turn and I was confuddled. I thoughtseized and took away a crop rotation then immediately knew I was dealing a Lands deck. I cast show and tell and with Iona naming green. I swing with Iona for the next few turns to victory.
Sideboard
+2 Pithing Needle
+2 Chain of Vapor
+1 Echoing Truth
+1 Grave Titan
-1 Elesh Norn
-2 Daze
-1 Animate Dead
-2 Exhume
G2 He cabal therapies me naming echoing truth getting my only sideboard card out of hand. I entomb a grave titan reanimate it. Manage to get him to 7 life and when I was about to swing for lethal activates thespian's stage and brings out the Marit Lage token killing my titan as well as abrupt decaying one of my tokens. On my turn I exhume Empyrial archangel. On my opponent's turn he tries to cast Liliana but I manage to force it. He cracked fetches around this point that drops him to five. I cast Chain of Vapors on the token and swing for lethal with the Archangel.


I don't get to play magic much these days so I can't get enough practice in. I admit I'm bad at the game but I had fun. My future plans for the deck.

Grave Titan a hell of a job. I might consider maindecking it.
Gilded Drake I thought would be a good idea against show and tell as it was hardcastable as well as a nice way to fight back against another Emakrul only to find out SnT gets boarded out.
Sire of Insanity to sideboard seems promising on hating storm.
I saw so many BUG decks that it makes me considering cutting animate dead for another spell pierce.
My opponents apparently found it surprising that I never really went for entombing Griselbrands. I mean sure Griselbrand is an amazing card but I liked going for the silver bullet instead of a universal answer. Having 4 of them anyway makes it nice for careful study pitches/show and tell targets.
I didn't play death and taxes at all today but I think Massacre might be nice to include.

[Fatal]

Looks like the most common mistake was not reading opponent and scenerio how to react vs them. Playing on blind is the shortest way to lose. How to fix it - just playing dozens of games vs random opponents until nothing would be suprised.

[Gilderbarin216]

Hey Guys, My names Jake Moldowsky, and i came in 2nd at this weekend's Legacy open with reanimator. Before playing the deck for about a month prior to the event, i read this thread pretty tentatively to get an idea of how to construct and play the deck. So thank you for contributing to the thread to all who did. Secondly, i have somewhat of a tournament report to publish below. Forgive me if i don't remember matches to the card, because most games were relatively midranged throughout the day. The deck is so powerful, that I felt that i would finish well with the deck regardless of how well I drew, which was not particularly well for the first 5 rounds. I don't think i even stuck a creature before turn 3 for those first rounds, regardless the games were still quite lopsided.

Heres my list for reference:

1 Sire of Insanity
4 Griselbrand
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Tidespout Tyrant

4 Thoughtseize
3 Ponder
4 Careful Study
4 Entomb
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Exhume
4 Reanimate
3 Lotus Petal
4 Force of Will

4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bayou
4 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Swamp

Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Spell Pierce
2 Pithing Needle
2 Duress
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Blazing Archon
1 Crippling Fatigue
1 Aetherling

I liked almost everything about this list, especially the configuration of the creature package. The main deck sire was unbelievable throughout the day, and i wouldn't replace it for anything. The 4 daze, 3 petal, 15 land package felt correct throughout the day. I really only like petal in the deck for the match ups where playing around pierce/flusterstorm/daze is necessary, and found myself boarding it out pretty actively.

With that, the board after the event could definitely be different. The blazing archon was very very good, often being a second elesh norn, but as well being important in match ups like death and taxes as well as all delver decks and mono-red sneak attack. I never cast aetherling, but i think that it is probably good. Against miracles, it can be very important to resolve an early griselbrand or sire, because they often lack the resources to deal with these threats on turns 2-3. After those turns though, through a combination of fetch lands with brainstorm, top and jace, terminus, red blast and swords can often dispatch our guys at a reasonable rate. This happens especially because i often like to board some amount of dazes out on the draw in these longer drawn mach ups. This is where i wanted Aethering, because granted you are able to assemble about 3 blue sources, he is basically unkillable. Im not sure what this spot could be if not Aetherling, but since nothing comes to mind, ill probably continue with him.
Spell pierce was not very impressive, and i think could definitely be another discard spell or two. They are invaluable against the delver decks, as i think the role you often have to take is the proactive type. it is very difficult to kill them through a hand with no information on their permission, and is often futile to try to fight them after board, as their counter magic is much better than ours. Duress and seize on the play can snag cage and death rite type cards, and on the draw can dismantle their counter magic. I was very impressed with duress all day.

The decay plan was fantastic. Other than being able to masquerade as shardless bug or bug delver game one for turns before going off, the decays covered almost all of the bases. Other than leyline of the void, decay clears basically everything, and is able to alleviate the pressure from the delver decks, and kill counterbalances. I wouldn't play show and tell because of the implications of turning on their hate. Cards like humility and ashen rider are embarrassing when your opponent isn't casting show and tell. Decay was fantastic.

Round one: Mono red Sneak attack
2-0
Game one played out interestingly when on the play my opponent played a turn one trinisphere off of a tomb and spirit guide. This led to me passing for the first three turns. He neglected to play a land until his turn four, and by then i had cast careful study and reanimated my griselbrand. He then played a city of traitors and tried through the breach, which resolved and put grislebrand into play. Locked by his own trinisphere, he drew cards to nine and then passed. i attacked him, and with only an ancient tomb and a city in play, he conceded on two.

Game two he played a mountain and passed, and then i dressed his chalice of the void. He played a land and passed. I careful studied, binning an iona, and then thoughtsiezed his through the breach. he played a land, and then i put an iona into play. Named red, and he conceded.

Round Two: Ur Omnitell
2-0
Game one, he cast an early show and tell. I dazed and he forced. Looking like bug delver is invaluable. He put in emrakul, and I griselbrand. I untapped, drew 14 cards, and reanimated a tidespout tyrant, bouncing his emrakul off of a petal. He died.

Game two, this one was long and drawn out as we bricked a reasonable amount after stripping his hand of all relevant action. On the last turn of the game, i dressed his force of will, and then forced his force on my sire of insanity in the yard. It hit play, and because that deck cannot win without a combination of 2 cards, he died in eventuality.

Round Three:
0-2
Game one, on the draw i keep:

Underground Sea, Bayou, Swamp, Daze, Reanimate, Elesh Norn, Griselbrand.

Now, there are many advantages and disadvantages to this hand. The immediate plan is to draw for turn, then discard. On turn two we can play underground sea and reanimate, with daze up. If our opponent is on a creature deck, that griselbrand can be replaced with elesh norn. The disadvantages include our opponent not playing a spell on turn one, and then force of willing or dazing our reanimate, or a turn one death rite shaman off a green source. I think that regardless of what happened, that this hand was a very reasonable keep considering the odds that our opponent is not a death rite shaman deck, and that even if they are, that they don't lead with one.

My opponent, playing elves plays bayou, deathrite.

We fiddle around for a few turns, playing only bayou and swamp to keep him in the dark to an extent, and our opponent kills us on turn three or so leaving up death rite bayou one way or another every turn.

Game Two:
We keep a hand relying on double ponder and a brainstorm to find us a way to pair our in-hand elesh norn with our reanimate. We brick on 18 or so cards before dying.

Round four: Mono red Burn
2-0
Game one, we put grielbrand into play on turn two on the draw strictly because of goblin guide giving us a free card on turn one.

Game two, he had no permission or hate, so we put a grielbrand into play again on turn two, and then we daze his sulfuric vortex.

This matchup is very, very good. Just be aware of vortex and how much damage you take off of reanimate. Bring in decay for pressure, vortex and cage/relic.

Round Five: Miracles
2-0
Game one, We have a very reasonable hand with force, blue card, thoughtsieze and the combo. We take it slow after seeing counterbalance off of the seize, and stick a turn three sire on the play. He looses his hand and concedes.

Game two, We abrupt decay his rest in peace on turn two, and kill him somewhere on turn four with grielbrand after duressing and seizing his reactionary spells.

Round Six: Reid Duke (Camera) Miracles
2-0
This match is in the archives, and i strongly recommend you watch this match to understand how unbelievably powerful the good draws out of this deck are. I kill him through 2 permission spells and 2 removal-eque effects without ever drawing any cards off griselbrand turn two. Anyway, we put a griselbrand into play on turn two both games, and after he kills it game one, we tyrant his board, and then sire his hand. One of the most fun games i played all day. He was extremely nice considering i knocked him out of top 8 contention on camera in the fashion that i did.

Round Seven: UR delver
2-1
I don't love this matchup, especially when you don't have their list, and you don't know exactly what hate/ counter spells to play around. Match in the finals was different, and i felt much more comfortable their. Blindness can be a scary thing.
Game one, We put griselbrand into play on turn three to play around daze, and we force his force. Good thing too, because he had two delvers in play, and i was taking a healthy 6 a turn. Exhume is very good when under pressure.

Game two, he establishes very early pressure in a delver and a pyromancer, playing around my discard spell on turn one by playing his cage on one and dazing my seize on my turn. This kept me in the dark, and when i finally dug to decay, he had two bolts for my 5 life.

Game three, One of the tightest games i played all day. Consisted of him playing around my dazes very well, and similar action on my part. He has both of his two cages, but we have two decays. Regardless, treasure cruise did alot of work on his part, but in the end elesh norn was clear to hit him 5 times after killing like 4 dudes. Elesh norn is very important against this deck, and in hindsight i should have valued her more when i played this matchup again in the finals.

Round Eight: Jund, Alex Finchler.
2-0
Finch is a good friend of mine, and it is unbelievably brutal having to battle a buddy for a win and in, but Finch is just off of an invitational top eight, so i didn't feel nearly as bad as i expected. :)

Game one, he does nothing of note after mulling to 6 and we put a turn two Grislebrand into play, and daze his liliana.

Game two, he mulls two three looking for a single land, and keeps deathrite, cage, liliana. He finds a land on turn two after we turn one discard a tyrant. We put it into play as he plays deathrite and we bounce everything he plays. Ever.
This matchup is probably one of our best. Other than exactly deathrite and like 1 or 2 cages, they have a very difficult time interacting, especially because we have brainstorm and coutnerspells for things like hymn or thoughtsieze.

Round Nine: Manaless Dredge: Juha
Draw
We draw into top eight, and i end up playing him again on camera for the semis.

Top Eight:
Gerrard Fabiano, Bug Delver.
2-1
This is easily our worst matchup. Besides deathrite and a lot of pressure, they have thoughtsieze, fluster storm, spell pierce, daze, force and often cage or surgical. Gerrard had no graveyard hate on his board save deathrite shaman.

Game one, he keeps a very slow hand with two wastelands, and we have both basics. We put Grisel into play on turn three through his like one force of will. Was a weird game, he kinda just rolled over and dies.

Game two, he keeps like force, force, daze, deathrite, thoughtsieze, some other blue spell on the mull to six on the play.
He passes on his turn one, and we discard tyrant for turn. He plays land, thoughtsieze, and we daze. We go petal, u sea, duress, reanimate, daze his force. We put tyrant into play, and pass. He does some cantripping, and plays a second land and passes. We string a few cantrips together to bounce his board, and then attack him. On the second to last turn, i entomb for fatigue on the end step to bounce a land, my intentions just to get him off of liliana mana. we untap, his boar delver, deathrite, usea, usea. With our two mana, we flash back fatigue, bouncing delver, killing deathrite. he dazes our fatigue, and we put him to 3 with a force in hand. he then untaps and says "Kill you?" i look at my board and life pad, and don't exactly understand. I was on 5, and had flashed back the fatigue, which pays 3 life. Embarrassed, i just didn't bounce the deathrite and kill the delver, or just play another spell so that he didn't have 5 power in play anymore, i concede.

Game Three, i was still pretty tilted, but managed to get it together and play tight. he taps all his mana on one turn because of my daze on his lili, and we put griselbrand into play. WE were on 3, and he had a bayou with deathrite in play. luckily, we braved the elements and killed him with 7 lifelink followed by reanimating his deathrite to stop liliana.

Semi Finals: Juha Tolvanen
2-0
This match is also on camera, and it is easily the most fun match i have played in a while. manaless dredge just seems like a slower graveyard deck. The only trouble that you should run into game one is therapy, but since they have to be on the draw, you can just kill them before they even dredge. If you know that you are playing against manaless dredge, just try to put elesh norn, or even grislebrand into play ASAP. Also do not reanimate sire under any circumstance. As well, all discard spells are time walks, so i suggest playing those aggressively.

Game one, He gets behind when i thoughtsieze a non-dredger, and then he passes back. I cantrip a little, and he discards grave troll. I exhume griselbrand into play, and he has to put grave troll into play, and because of the replacement effect on grave troll, it is a 1/1 and stays out of the yard. He discards shambling shell and passes. I reanimate that, to again take away dredging and then kill him the next turn with elesh norn.

Game two, Im on the play again (Lucky me) and i play a turn one discard spell. he doesn't do anything, and i put elesh norn into play. That was it.

Game one is imperative to win, since he has 4 leylines on the board, and those are unanswerable. i would probably have to revert to reanimating his stuff to kill him at that point. The odds that they have leyline both boarded games though is minimal. Just kill them the games that they don't have it. Also, reanimating balustrade spy and targeting them with a crypt in play is a very reasonable course of action if they do have it.

Finals: Bob Huang
1-2
This match is really interesting. I won't go into detail, as it is long and also recorded. Basically i think i made a few errors.

Game one, i run my exhume into his two cards. he has 4 dazes and 4 force in his deck, and he was on the mull to 6 on the play. With exactly flooded strand open, i think that it is very reasonable to go for it there. If he untaps he has free reign to a clear top of the library, and access to cantrips. Whereas if i go for it in the spot that i did, he has to have either force #2 and blue card in his two cards, or exactly daze. Because i had daze in hand, we also take away any interaction he may have that turn in case that he brainstorms or does anything of the sort that turn. In reality, we are a combo deck, and he has 4 treasure cruise, i want to give him as small of a window as possible.

Game two, i think i played well, and we kill him.

Game three, i just want to start by saying that hindsight is 20/20. At the time, i felt like holding both reanimates would be better than that exhume that i shuffle away with brainstorm because he is a daze deck. In reality, i was too low after reanimating my griselbrand to even cast the second reanimate. Even if i hadn't resolved the first reanimate, i would have been too low from his insects to cast the second one. This was huge when i was looking for the elesh norn on the last turn of the game. Speaking of which, i should have prioritized elesh norn higher in that situation. He literally cannot stick a guy through it, and in reality i would have been dead to two bolts regardless of what i got there. In my mind, he had a one turn window to assemble enough power to race the griselbrand, and i was audacious enough to believe that this was not possible. The match was very well played by him, and was a great way to end the event.

Regardless of the shiny cup evading my grasp, i was very satiated with the deck throughout every game i played. Regardless of how bad the matchup, most decks can still not beat a griselbrand if stuck through their blind spot. I think that because of the rampant play that treasure cruise will see in the coming future, rest in peace will see more play out of the white decks than cage, and this is a good thing for us. Rest in peace is much easier to snag with a discard spell, or easier to daze. I think that this deck is sweet, and please, leave any comments or changes that you think you might make to the list for the coming future. I will probably be playing the deck at GP Jersey. Keep on reanimating. :)

[Force of Beard]

Congratulations Jake! I am especially glad you took down Reid Duke, he killed me in the semifinals last year of an open (he was so pleasant I was almost rooting for him to beat me!).
I tried to hold down the fort in Indianapolis, but got bounced in the quarterfinals. I had one of those tournaments where I played tons of Plow, Karakas, and Liliana decks. My Grave Titan probably had 12 or so kills.
Adding in the results from Atlanta, Reanimator is having a solid month. Keep it going guys!

[Zilong]

well done! Thx for the report.

[Gilderbarin216]

My pleasure. Hope you guys find it useful/ entertaining.

[owenzzz]

Hello everyone,

I tested dig thru time in a small tournament and it's actually good. Just had 2 game wins because of him as I was able to recuperate from a counter war.

Also, do we need more disruption when we are playing against combo or this is just to fight the hate. I've been totaly molested by a uwr delver due to short clock and a lot of disruption.

Im just thinking if I can change my 2 disruption to xantid swarm.

[GoldenCid]

Hello Everybody!! Lovers of reanimation! Good sunday for you!

I have pushed the deck some days ago as mentioned above and i found my first problems. Probably they are because i'm still newbie but im having troubles to putting the guys in yard. I run full set of study, seize and entomb but i dont hit entomb it's very hard to me. I run the "big 7" core. Any advice?

In the same line how do you feel with s&t? most of the time pre and post board you dont have a big 7 in hand to drop. Dont misunderstand me, i like the strategy, im just telling what i feel.

For reference, my list:

4 e ntomb
4 exhume
4 Reanimate
4 FoW
4 BS
4 CS
4 seize
2 petal
2 s&t
2 Daze
3 ponder

4 Grisel
1 Iona
1 Elesh
1 Tyrant

Lands.

On the DTT topic....i prefer by far, Lim-dul´s vault

[atosecond]

Hello Everybody!! Lovers of reanimation! Good sunday for you!

I have pushed the deck some days ago as mentioned above and i found my first problems. Probably they are because i'm still newbie but im having troubles to putting the guys in yard. I run full set of study, seize and entomb but i dont hit entomb it's very hard to me. I run the "big 7" core. Any advice?

In the same line how do you feel with s&t? most of the time pre and post board you dont have a big 7 in hand to drop. Dont misunderstand me, i like the strategy, im just telling what i feel.

For reference, my list:

4 e ntomb
4 exhume
4 Reanimate
4 FoW
4 BS
4 CS
4 seize
2 petal
2 s&t
2 Daze

4 Grisel
1 Iona
1 Elesh
1 Tyrant

Lands.

On the DTT topic....i prefer by far, Lim-dul´s vault

Do you run 3/4 ponder? That could explain the issues. I haven't ever really had an issue finding a creature when I go in on the show and tell strategy, I have had issues occasionally finding a show and tell and am currently experimenting with personal tutor as a 3 of.

The deck does lean a little bit on entomb, but honestly this just sounds like you maybe haven't quite figured out when to mulligan which can be a little tricky.

[Stryfo]

it also looks like you're running 19 lands, which is a bit on the high side for this deck (especially if you also have 2 petals). Your blue count is also very low for a force of will deck.

[downtoonelife]

Made 2nd place yesterday but with only 26 players. There was also a GPT on the same day that's why it was a low turn out. I can't remember much unto the details of my match except for the results hehe

R1 vs Sneak Show 2-1
G1 I resolve a 2nd turn Griselbrand he has no counterspells. G
G2 I controlled the game with my discard spell - his hand was left with Emrakul and Griselbrand. Was able to exhume Blazing Archon but he eventually drop Sneak Attack then top deck a Jace to bounce my Blazing Archon and attack with Emrakul and Griselbrand.
G3 Controlled the game again with discard spells. Then he played Blood Moon good thing I had a fetch in play and search for basic swamp. I eventually draw entomb then exhume Griselbrand and it went all the way.

R2 vs Jund 0-2
G1 Keep drawing into lands. Then had to manually discard Ashen Rider with my thoughtseize then reanimate. However he outrace me with his 2 DRS.
G2 Had a pithing on his LotV. Was able to exhume Sphinx of the Steel Wind but he top deck a Maelstrom Pulse and lost.

R3 vs 4 color Affinity 2-1
G1 I was at low life when I exhume for Elesh Norn and Iona. But he had a 10/2 Batterskull because of Cranial plating. I had to block his Batterskull with Iona just to survive. When he bounce and recast Batterkull I FoW'd it then Elesh Norn went all the way.
G2 Lost to Master of etherium. His 2 Sculler was taking my important spells.
G3 Reanimated Griselbrand and had a pithing for Karakas. I won.

R4 vs Merfolk with CotV main 2-0
G1 Turn 2 Griselbrand in play. Win
G2 Iona for Blue turn 4. Win

R5 vs a teammate Omnitell ID

QF vs a teammate Sneak Show 2-1
G1 He controlled me and Jace was helping him sculpt his hand for the win
G2 Controlled him with my discard spell. I think there was 6 discard spells in my yard then I exhume Griselbrand which resolve and then he concede. He said he was holding 2 Griselbrand and 2 Emrakuls.
G3 The game went long. He keep a 1 land hand with cantrips and counters. I keep also a 1 land hand but with 2 thoughtseize and some cantrips. We were able to find our other lands but I was able to control the game with discard spell and pithing to his Sneak Attack. I won when I was able to resolve Griselbrand in play and he has 1 Emrakul in hand.

SF vs another teammate UR (inspired from Bob Huang's List) 2-1
G1 Turn 3 Elesh Norn and it went all the way.
G2 Lost to His 3 Monastery Swiftspear and a Grafdigger's cage in play.
G3 Turn 3 top deck a Show and Tell into Elesh Norn. He was tapped out and only has a Brainstorm in hand. He concede after.

Finals vs the same Merfolk I got paired Round 4 but this time I lost 0-2 lol
G1 Keep a hand with lots of cantrips but he played CotV 1 and lost eventually.
G2 I kept a hand with 1 delta, 1 thoughtseize, 1 disfigure, 1 brainstorm, 1 ponder, 1 echoing truth and 1 FoW (I don't know if it was a good decision - what do you think guys?) He had a turn 1 Cursecatcher then another cursecatcher then phantasmal image the cursecatcher. Dazes my cantrips, drop a tormod's crypt and I concede. haha

My list:

3 Griselbrand
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Archetype of Endurance
1 Ashen Rider
1 Grave Titan

3 Pithing Needle

4 Ponder
4 Careful Study
4 Brainstorm
4 Entomb
4 Exhume
4 Reanimate
4 Thoughtseize
1 Misdirection
4 Force of Will

4 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Underground Sea
2 Island
3 Swamp

Sideboard:
2 Echoing Truth
4 Disfigure
4 Duress
3 Show and Tell
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Blazing Archon

*I'm not happy with Disfigure anymore and not that into Massacre and Engineered Explosives. Any advise on what to replace disfigure slot without adding a third color. A mass removal that's not conditional and not more than 2cc, if there's any hehe

[GoldenCid]

Do you run 3/4 ponder? That could explain the issues. I haven't ever really had an issue finding a creature when I go in on the show and tell strategy, I have had issues occasionally finding a show and tell and am currently experimenting with personal tutor as a 3 of.

The deck does lean a little bit on entomb, but honestly this just sounds like you maybe haven't quite figured out when to mulligan which can be a little tricky.

Ya! Sorry i forgot the 3 ponders!!

[entreri_fans]

Made 2nd place yesterday but with only 26 players. There was also a GPT on the same day that's why it was a low turn out. I can't remember much unto the details of my match except for the results hehe


R2 vs Jund 0-2
G1 Keep drawing into lands. Then had to manually discard Ashen Rider with my thoughtseize then reanimate. However he outrace me with his 2 DRS.
G2 Had a pithing on his LotV. Was able to exhume Sphinx of the Steel Wind but he top deck a Maelstrom Pulse and lost.



sorry but doesn't sphinx of the steel wind have protection from green thus Maelstorm Pulse-Proof?

[downtoonelife]

sorry but doesn't sphinx of the steel wind have protection from green thus Maelstorm Pulse-Proof?

He targets the Pithing Needle and then used LotV's sac a creature - loyalty to kill my Sphinx.

[entreri_fans]

He targets the Pithing Needle and then used LotV's sac a creature - loyalty to kill my Sphinx.

aha, sorry for my mistake:frown:

but thanks for the nice report:tongue:

[Nuke is Good]

I do like Contagion instead of disfigure.

If you want even more lifeloss you can try dismember.

[downtoonelife]

I do like Contagion instead of disfigure.

If you want even more lifeloss you can try dismember.

Thanks. I've seen Contagion before in some list but haven't thought much about it. This time I'll test and see if its effective.

[owenzzz]

I have tested a UBG reanimator with dig through time and it performed well. Dig through time is actually good since you can get 2 combo pieces or combo protection pieces and it enables you to go off the next turn.

I have experience playing a 4th turn dig (after counter wars) and was able to put griselbrand next turn.

I haven't tried xantid in this build but I think it will be a good SB for uber control deck or tempo based decks to fight counter wars. Is there anyone who tried this?

Thanks!

[Mhenlo]

I have tested a UBG reanimator with dig through time and it performed well. Dig through time is actually good since you can get 2 combo pieces or combo protection pieces and it enables you to go off the next turn.

I have experience playing a 4th turn dig (after counter wars) and was able to put griselbrand next turn.

I haven't tried xantid in this build but I think it will be a good SB for uber control deck or tempo based decks to fight counter wars. Is there anyone who tried this?

Thanks!

IMO Dig through Time isn't good in Reanimator. It doesn't help when they have graveyard hate(most of the time). Reanimator is one of the best decks in the format if they don't have graveyard hate, so we don't really want to become more reliant on the graveyard.

Xantid Swarm is good against Show and Tell decks and other counterspell decks with no Removal (The Mirror), RUG/RWU Delver will still leave in Bolts so they can just get bolted so you don't want them and against BUG Delver it doesn't help against their discard or Shaman. It can also be good against storm if they have Silence. Flusterstorm would be the best SB card to win Counter wars.

[beebles]

Here is my list I have been playing. I tried to make it consistent and easy to play as possible. I am skimping on disruption because I want more threats. Also I don't understand thoughtseize. It seems like you take way to much from reanimate for it to be good. Plus when do you want to cast it? Turn 1? Thats when you need to entomb/study. Also lotus petal is the best card ever. It boggles my mind to ever see it as a 2 or 3 of. I swear I go off on turn 1 like at least 25 percent of the time.

Currently I have been dying to BUG delver at my store but steam rolling everything else. Frustrating! I was hoping BUG delver would die out. I do not know how to solve that match up. Red blue delver decks are fairly easy though.

Sphinx of the Steel wind is kind of a security blanket. You cannot be raced or burnt out with it in play. Plus it beats karakas. D&T is omni present in my meta. At worst it is Griselbrand that can't draw cards but pitches to force. I admit is not good in most situations but whatever.

4 Entomb
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
2 Show and Tell
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
1 Misdirection
4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study
4 Lotus Petal
3 Ponder

4 Griselbrand
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Iona Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn
1 Ashen Rider

4 Delta
3 Rainforest
4 Sea
1 Trop
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp

2 Show and Tell
3 Duress
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Sire of Insanity
1 Elesh Norn
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Massacre
1 Perish
1 Pithing Needle

[downtoonelife]

It is really up to the player's play style and also the meta maybe as a factor why some list run 3-4 petals and some don't. Thoughtseize gives you information on what deck you are facing, it can discard hate cards and worst case your own creature if entomb/CS is not available in your hand. Most of the time If I have no idea what deck I'm facing I'd go turn 1 Thoughtseize over Entomb/Careful. In my list I MD 3 Pithing Needle over the Lotus Petal slot compared with other list. You already have an answer MD against decks with DRS, Karakas, LotV, Scavenging Ooze and hate MD against Sneak Attack, Miracles and Painter decks. It's never a dead card.

[Brentane]

What do people think of Not of This World as a budget option for Force of Will? I will not be running this deck in a tournament scene until I get forces obviously, but at the moment my mates play efficient spot removal so I though this would be a good option.

[TinkerRobot]

I also agree different players should pilot different lists.

I, for one, would not leave home without Thoughtseizes. I also think we shouldn't be too focused on going off turn 1. We are trying to win games of Magic, not just goldfish.

Also, Force of Will is a difficult card to replace. Not of this World is pretty bad. Better options would be Misdirection (the closest thing to Force), Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm (not a very budget friendly card though), Stubborn Denial, Swan Song, maybe even Mana Leak. Or you could play Duress/Cabal Therapy/Thoughseize in your disruption slots.

[Gilderbarin216]

Discard is what makes our combo so good. Not only is thoughtseize a discard outlet, but it gives information. Knowing what your opponent is trying to do is critical each game. You can try to guess each game if they have (Surgical, force, pierce, fluster storm, daze etc.) each turn of each game, but knowledge is key. It is when you try to win a counter war on the blind against the tempo strategies that you will lose. Also, not to mention that a lot of the hate cards are either cast on turn two/ or are active when they hit play. This makes discard on the play critical. Snagging a cage/shaman and putting a griselbrand into play on two/three is invaluable.

I wouldn't leave home without four seize in the main, and discard has been so unbelievable that i am considering the 3-4th duress on the board. The deck is fast, yes. But with discard our deck can be a consistent, mid game combo deck that can beat almost any piece of hate/disruption. I really recommend it.

[Brentane]

Discard is what makes our combo so good. Not only is thoughtseize a discard outlet, but it gives information. Knowing what your opponent is trying to do is critical each game. You can try to guess each game if they have (Surgical, force, pierce, fluster storm, daze etc.) each turn of each game, but knowledge is key. It is when you try to win a counter war on the blind against the tempo strategies that you will lose. Also, not to mention that a lot of the hate cards are either cast on turn two/ or are active when they hit play. This makes discard on the play critical. Snagging a cage/shaman and putting a griselbrand into play on two/three is invaluable.

I wouldn't leave home without four seize in the main, and discard has been so unbelievable that i am considering the 3-4th duress on the board. The deck is fast, yes. But with discard our deck can be a consistent, mid game combo deck that can beat almost any piece of hate/disruption. I really recommend it.

On this note about thoughtseize, I instead use Unmask. Very easy to cast for no mana, does no damage to you, and hits everything Thoughseize can do. I have been currently using it in my list to great affect. What do you guys think about it?

[Gilderbarin216]

I think that it may often be a detriment to how fluid the deck is to play something like unmask. Often, you want to only use one card to deal with one card, thats how are deck retains it's redundancy. If we start playing something like unmask, we will probably have to exile something like a second piece of reanimation. There are a few issues with this:
1) Having multiple ways to receive a dude into play is huge when dealing with either graveyard hate or counter spells, and often a first reanimation spell is just as good as a discard spell, letting you resolve the second.
2) With force of will in the deck already, the amount of cards that we can consider disposable is relatively taxed.
3) Unmask makes Brainstorm much much worse. Force of will is often quite awkward due to the need to keep a blue card after a cantrip, as it will usually require keeping something that we would much rather shuffle away. Having to do something similar with unmask on any turn after 2 or so is something that we don't want. One mana is really not that much, and i think that in the match ups where discard is good, we can afford to be a more mid-ranged combo deck, killing them assuredly on turns 2-4.
4) I think that it is quite rare that we will ever really value the 2 life from thought seize over the black card from unmask. There have been situations where in the mono red matchup where I have felt like thoughtsieze is pretty bad, but then i remember that we have griselbrand and iona in our deck, and that once we stick these, and strip their relevant spells (Surgical, cage, and vortex in some situations.) that we have the luxury of not caring about our life total. Also, thought seize stripping any spell that does a total of 2-4 damage in and of itself is quite good.

Ive considered Unmask on the sideboard where i really do want more discard, but i beseech you to play thoughtsieze in the main. It is not only our best disruption spell, but makes the deck much less clunky.

[toor]

I think that it may often be a detriment to how fluid the deck is to play something like unmask. Often, you want to only use one card to deal with one card, thats how are deck retains it's redundancy. If we start playing something like unmask, we will probably have to exile something like a second piece of reanimation. There are a few issues with this:
1) Having multiple ways to receive a dude into play is huge when dealing with either graveyard hate or counter spells, and often a first reanimation spell is just as good as a discard spell, letting you resolve the second.
2) With force of will in the deck already, the amount of cards that we can consider disposable is relatively taxed.
3) Unmask makes Brainstorm much much worse. Force of will is often quite awkward due to the need to keep a blue card after a cantrip, as it will usually require keeping something that we would much rather shuffle away. Having to do something similar with unmask on any turn after 2 or so is something that we don't want. One mana is really not that much, and i think that in the match ups where discard is good, we can afford to be a more mid-ranged combo deck, killing them assuredly on turns 2-4.
4) I think that it is quite rare that we will ever really value the 2 life from thought seize over the black card from unmask. There have been situations where in the mono red matchup where I have felt like thoughtsieze is pretty bad, but then i remember that we have griselbrand and iona in our deck, and that once we stick these, and strip their relevant spells (Surgical, cage, and vortex in some situations.) that we have the luxury of not caring about our life total. Also, thought seize stripping any spell that does a total of 2-4 damage in and of itself is quite good.

Ive considered Unmask on the sideboard where i really do want more discard, but i beseech you to play thoughtsieze in the main. It is not only our best disruption spell, but makes the deck much less clunky.

Have you tried Dig Through Time or ADecay main? I think TS vs DTT is particularly interesting, since another way to fight through countermagic is just to play more bombs. I also think that delver cruise variants are going to be the most popular decks for the foreseeable future (along with miracles/elves) so decay is particularly attractive. Against a competent elf player t1/t2 deathright (depending if your on the draw) has proven particularly frustrating in what should be a very easy matchup.

PS, I really like your creature base (Sire main and Aetherling in the board). Haven't played with this deck in a long time so I am going to try and hit some events this weekend.

[owenzzz]

I replace my ponder with DTT and this helpful again delver matches. DTT is good to cast after counter war as it gives you your wincon and ts/daze/fow. There are times that i failed with careful study so i need to dump other cards eventually used it for dtt.

Ponder also good but I like the card advantage so used DTT. I have the ADecay in my SB and I think that it's not advisable to Mainboard this since it will slow you combo. I would rather focus on the combo part than dilute my MB with removal.



Have you tried Dig Through Time or ADecay main? I think TS vs DTT is particularly interesting, since another way to fight through countermagic is just to play more bombs. I also think that delver cruise variants are going to be the most popular decks for the foreseeable future (along with miracles/elves) so decay is particularly attractive. Against a competent elf player t1/t2 deathright (depending if your on the draw) has proven particularly frustrating in what should be a very easy matchup.

PS, I really like your creature base (Sire main and Aetherling in the board). Haven't played with this deck in a long time so I am going to try and hit some events this weekend.

[owenzzz]

Hi Mhenlo,

I think your justification is correct. I am just assuming that the meta is moving to counter meta (delver and miracles) and card tutor and advantage is good. DTT did help me against a UWR and Match-up preboard.

I just thought to use Xantid swarm based on experience against delver decks and miracles. But I cannot assume as I need to test this more.

Thanks!


IMO Dig through Time isn't good in Reanimator. It doesn't help when they have graveyard hate(most of the time). Reanimator is one of the best decks in the format if they don't have graveyard hate, so we don't really want to become more reliant on the graveyard.

Xantid Swarm is good against Show and Tell decks and other counterspell decks with no Removal (The Mirror), RUG/RWU Delver will still leave in Bolts so they can just get bolted so you don't want them and against BUG Delver it doesn't help against their discard or Shaman. It can also be good against storm if they have Silence. Flusterstorm would be the best SB card to win Counter wars.

[Gilderbarin216]

Have you tried Dig Through Time or ADecay main? I think TS vs DTT is particularly interesting, since another way to fight through countermagic is just to play more bombs. I also think that delver cruise variants are going to be the most popular decks for the foreseeable future (along with miracles/elves) so decay is particularly attractive. Against a competent elf player t1/t2 deathright (depending if your on the draw) has proven particularly frustrating in what should be a very easy matchup.

PS, I really like your creature base (Sire main and Aetherling in the board). Haven't played with this deck in a long time so I am going to try and hit some events this weekend.

I think that we probably can't play dig through time in the 75 because, although we are a "graveyard" deck, we don't actually bin that many cards. Especially that most of the cards we are binning are cards that we actually need in the yard to win. Often, the best way to beat a game one deathrite is to bin multiple guys, and cast exhume. With that in mind, i think that even a card like dig is probably inferior to something like lim-duls vault, which is a card that we still don't really want to play.

With respect to decay, i just don't think it is necessary. There are only so many cards that you really care about before they have access to their sideboard, that decay will often either be unnecessary, or even replacing a card that is necessary to win. Counterbalance and other main-deckable things that are annoying, often cost enough that they can be either dazed or forced, and leave an opening for us. I also really like my main deck at the moment, and couldn't see cutting anything for a piece of hate that we can just run on the board.

Sire and Aetherling have been interesting. Sire is absolutely awesome. Wins a very large number of games that Iona wouldn't be able to in game one. Very often have i been able to put a sire into play against something like miracles or d&t where they have access to karakas, and have been very impressed. As to aetherling, i would have to play more games against miracles to be sure about how efficient the card is, but i have a feeling it is what we want. When it comes down to it, against miracles if we resolve a threat early enough, it probably won't matter what it is, and we will probably win. What worries me are the games where they have access to mana and things like swords, pyroblast, jace and terminus. I think aetherling is what we want in those positions, and having access to it with entomb seems invaluable.

[P-E]

If think you re right about aetherling Jake. It s the best long game crea for miracle as he has to use X+1 removal where x is our bluebmana which would be hard for him and even a 4 poke eavh turn is enought vs miracle
I m gonna test it for sure

How was crippling fatigue ?

[atosecond]

Here is my list I have been playing. I tried to make it consistent and easy to play as possible. I am skimping on disruption because I want more threats. Also I don't understand thoughtseize. It seems like you take way to much from reanimate for it to be good. Plus when do you want to cast it? Turn 1? Thats when you need to entomb/study. Also lotus petal is the best card ever. It boggles my mind to ever see it as a 2 or 3 of. I swear I go off on turn 1 like at least 25 percent of the time.

Currently I have been dying to BUG delver at my store but steam rolling everything else. Frustrating! I was hoping BUG delver would die out. I do not know how to solve that match up. Red blue delver decks are fairly easy though.

Sphinx of the Steel wind is kind of a security blanket. You cannot be raced or burnt out with it in play. Plus it beats karakas. D&T is omni present in my meta. At worst it is Griselbrand that can't draw cards but pitches to force. I admit is not good in most situations but whatever.

4 Entomb
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
2 Show and Tell
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
1 Misdirection
4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study
4 Lotus Petal
3 Ponder

4 Griselbrand
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Iona Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn
1 Ashen Rider

4 Delta
3 Rainforest
4 Sea
1 Trop
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp

2 Show and Tell
3 Duress
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Sire of Insanity
1 Elesh Norn
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Massacre
1 Perish
1 Pithing Needle
Whenever, I have done the math the 16 land 4 petal version of the deck has a 7% chance to t1 reanimate not including mulligans. This goes up to about 11-12‰ after one mulligan.

Removing a petal lowers your chance to t1 by about 1%/petal before mulligan and 2%/petal after.

This is probably an overestimate because some of these hands where scored as t1 if a missing combo piece could be gotten through a bstorm or ponder (played on t1, with the rest) and it is dubious that these hands would be played this way.

The real benefit of petals I feel is in powering out show and tells post sideboard not so much in t1 reanimates. I ran a list with 2 petals and feel that was fine.

[Mhenlo]

Lotus Petal are best against Daze decks and when you are racing. Against slower decks I would recommend siding 1 out, possibly more depending on how many cards you need to bring in.

[Que]

My pleasure. Hope you guys find it useful/ entertaining.

I didn't mention it before, but congrats on the top 8! I just wanted to ask what your general boarding was for some of those matchups or other "tier 1" decks. Obviously there is some individual judgment that goes into choosing numbers, but I'm just curious as to what you think the best overall strat would be.

EDIT: I just realized some cards are pretty weak when on the draw like TS and Daze so you probably cut some number of those and then return them game 3. xD

btw I like the inclusion of green mana sources with the AD in the sb. I was using it in Dredge and I believe its definitely what we want. Having an uncounterable instat speed spell to deal with their hate is awesome.

[Gilderbarin216]

If think you re right about aetherling Jake. It s the best long game crea for miracle as he has to use X+1 removal where x is our bluebmana which would be hard for him and even a 4 poke eavh turn is enought vs miracle
I m gonna test it for sure

How was crippling fatigue ?


P-E, Fatigue was pretty good all day. The real reason it is on the board is to kill a deathrite with 3 mana and an entomb, but it was very reasonable being cast all day. Against Fabiano in the top eight, i killed 2 death rites and 2 insects in games 2 and 3. Card was very good against bug delver. Also, with the inclusion of more delver decks in the format, i think that it is a very reasonable option for the 4th removal slot on the board. In reality, i think that it could be a chain of vapor/void snare and fulfill the same job, but i would think twice before cutting it. And yeah, aetherling is sweet.

[Brentane]

Hey guys, I would like to know what I am doing wrong. Yesterday I versed the old G/W Midrange Standard deck from return to ravnica/thragtusk era that combats graveyard reanimation. Problem is not that I couldn't play around graveyard hate, but the problem is what I am always noticing. I am most of the time put to 3-5 life because of bringing out Griselbrand with reanimate and drawing 7 cards when he comes out. Isn't that what we usually do? Or am I taxing my life too much?

[Mhenlo]

Hey guys, I would like to know what I am doing wrong. Yesterday I versed the old G/W Midrange Standard deck from return to ravnica/thragtusk era that combats graveyard reanimation. Problem is not that I couldn't play around graveyard hate, but the problem is what I am always noticing. I am most of the time put to 3-5 life because of bringing out Griselbrand with reanimate and drawing 7 cards when he comes out. Isn't that what we usually do? Or am I taxing my life too much?

Drawing 7 cards isn't always correct. In fact most of the time against RUG Delver you never want to pay life. Sometimes a 7/7 Flying Lifelinker is enough.

[Brentane]

Drawing 7 cards isn't always correct. In fact most of the time against RUG Delver you never want to pay life. Sometimes a 7/7 Flying Lifelinker is enough.

So is just summoning a 7/7 lifelinker good enough that most games you won't need to draw cards? When exactly do you draw cards? If it's going to be removed? Excelerate? Etc.? I need some help on that part.

[Nuke is Good]

So is just summoning a 7/7 lifelinker good enough that most games you won't need to draw cards? When exactly do you draw cards? If it's going to be removed? Excelerate? Etc.? I need some help on that part.

Sometimes a 7/7 life linker is enough to clinch the game. I typically would use the draw 7 ability in response to something trying to remove my Griselbrand, having extra cards to reanimate something else is a bonus.

[Gilderbarin216]

In matchups where they have no ways to remove your guy, and they can't race it, there is no reason to draw cards. Aside from like 3 tarmogoyfs being like 4/5s, there are almost no scenarios where rug delver can race griselbrand. When drawing cards, you often put yourself liable to lose to things like stifle and multiple lightning bolts. In other matchups, where power is more easily surmounted, like ur swiftblade delver, you might need to draw some cards and resolve something like an elesh norn or an archon etc. It is pretty rare that in the delver matchups that you will need to draw any cards.

Against other decks such as midrange and miracle matchups, it is often correct to use every point of life you have to protect your griselbrand, since their few ways to get it off the board are all you care about. These decks often pack things like swords to plowshares and terminus, so drawing down low is often fine, especially due to the lack of pressure that they can present. Just be careful with bing numbers when it comes to drawing and reanimating, as 2,3, and even 6 can be huge depending on the matchup. Just try not to die, be conserved when you feel apt to, and get aggressive if you feel that you need more gas.

As for the other combo matchups, it is often correct to again draw with everything you have eventually, except for storm. There are scenarios that you need to be cognizant of in which they can just like run 3 spells into permission, and then tendrils you through any counter magic. Best way to prevent this is to put sire of insanity into play ASAP. :) Otherwise, use discard aggressively, and you should be fine. The odds that they have the tools to tendrils you through your permission is slim as it is, if you use your cards correctly, you should be fine.

This has been a public griselbrand announcement, use it as you may.

[Howishotgun]

what are your guys thoughts on running 8 creatures main board while taking out a ponder. Or putting iona in sideboard and running main deck grave titan or sire of insanity. Been trying to see if it might be worth it to change the main deck 7 fatties or not

[toor]

After this weekend.

Quick thoughts:

Thoughtseize >> Daze. But your life total is too pressured in delver matchups for me to want to play 4 TS at the moment. Daze is actually kind of awful since it only helps turn 1/2, and doesnt help against proactive hate nearly as much.

Tidespout Tyrant is bad. It is basically only good vs Maze of Ith, which is too small a consideration to be worth it. Iona gives you a good target vs Burn, and is better off of careful study in 90% of mus so I think its much better maindeck.

I like a land in the board if you play 15/3. Mostly for wasteland decks, though vs control mus, +1 land -1 petal is also good.

4 Decay is no longer optional to me. The card is by far the best thing vs delver (since you want to be able to answer early threats & cage & deathright). Threads of disloyalty also a consideration for that matcup.

I would consider a chain of vapor or wipe away in the board. I had opponents bring in Leyline and Humility against me which I have no way of beating normally.

Didn't play a competent miracles player, but so far Delver Variants & Death and Taxes were tough.

[Gilderbarin216]

After this weekend.

Quick thoughts:

Thoughtseize >> Daze. But your life total is too pressured in delver matchups for me to want to play 4 TS at the moment. Daze is actually kind of awful since it only helps turn 1/2, and doesnt help against proactive hate nearly as much.

Tidespout Tyrant is bad. It is basically only good vs Maze of Ith, which is too small a consideration to be worth it. Iona gives you a good target vs Burn, and is better off of careful study in 90% of mus so I think its much better maindeck.

I like a land in the board if you play 15/3. Mostly for wasteland decks, though vs control mus, +1 land -1 petal is also good.

4 Decay is no longer optional to me. The card is by far the best thing vs delver (since you want to be able to answer early threats & cage & deathright). Threads of disloyalty also a consideration for that matcup.

I would consider a chain of vapor or wipe away in the board. I had opponents bring in Leyline and Humility against me which I have no way of beating normally.

Didn't play a competent miracles player, but so far Delver Variants & Death and Taxes were tough.

You should play 4 thoughtseize. Life is a resource to resolve your threat, and in the delver matchup, if you are not clear to go by turn 4-5, then you are dead anyway, and turn 4-5 is when your life total would have been depleted by the more aggressive strategies. That being said, i agree with thoughtseize being better than almost all of your other permission.

Tryant is awesome i think. Other than maybe sire of insanity, it is your only answer to a game one karakas, which is imperative with the increase of death and taxes in the metagame coming shortly. Tyrant is pretty much un-raceable if you even cast like 2 spells after he resolves. I think that having it main deck also deals with incidental threats to the strategy before you have access to abrupt decay after board. Keeping your opponent off of things like liliana and jace in the matchups without much pressure is also valuable.

Decay is great, i agree, but i contest that 4 is too many. You should never need to draw more than one, and with the amount of selection in the deck, i think that you can afford to play one less. As for threads, it is definitively too expensive.

I like chain of vapor, just be cognizant of the "Bounce your thing" clause on chain. If you think that this clause is a real detriment, than play void snare at will. The speed of the spell is often something of redundancy. Wipe is probably too expensive to want, as once the thing that we need to bounce is off the board, we want to kill them asap, and waiting till turn 4 at least to do that is a little ambitious.

[beebles]

I disagree with all this crapping on daze. It is the best card ever. For one thing Daze is the best answer to other Dazes!!! Thoughtseize is fine but it slows you down by a turn, eats your life, can't pitch to force, cant nail top decked Jaces and is approximately as bad late game as Daze.

Ashen Rider is another out to Karakas. It seems to fallen out of favor I guess. I am not sure why. Tidespout I guess can pull you back from really bad board states but Ashen rider is perhaps more reliable.

[atosecond]

what are your guys thoughts on running 8 creatures main board while taking out a ponder. Or putting iona in sideboard and running main deck grave titan or sire of insanity. Been trying to see if it might be worth it to change the main deck 7 fatties or not
Sire has been discussed to death now.

I am in favour of putting a grave titan in the main but that could be because in my meta there are quite a few karakas decks. I also like how grave titan gums up the board against most fair decks.

My 7:
4 griselbrand
1 sire of insanity
1 grave titan
1 elesh norn

In s/b:
1 grave titan
1 ashen rider

I have a lot of DnT in my meta, but to be honest the second grave titan may not be desirable. Could be replaced with tidespout/inkwell/Iona I guess. I do find and have won a couple games off of just hard casting him

I think 7 creatures is the right number g1. You might tweak that number g2/g3 especially if you are on the show and tell plan.

[toor]

You should play 4 thoughtseize. Life is a resource to resolve your threat, and in the delver matchup, if you are not clear to go by turn 4-5, then you are dead anyway, and turn 4-5 is when your life total would have been depleted by the more aggressive strategies. That being said, i agree with thoughtseize being better than almost all of your other permission.

Tryant is awesome i think. Other than maybe sire of insanity, it is your only answer to a game one karakas, which is imperative with the increase of death and taxes in the metagame coming shortly. Tyrant is pretty much un-raceable if you even cast like 2 spells after he resolves. I think that having it main deck also deals with incidental threats to the strategy before you have access to abrupt decay after board. Keeping your opponent off of things like liliana and jace in the matchups without much pressure is also valuable.

Decay is great, i agree, but i contest that 4 is too many. You should never need to draw more than one, and with the amount of selection in the deck, i think that you can afford to play one less. As for threads, it is definitively too expensive.

I like chain of vapor, just be cognizant of the "Bounce your thing" clause on chain. If you think that this clause is a real detriment, than play void snare at will. The speed of the spell is often something of redundancy. Wipe is probably too expensive to want, as once the thing that we need to bounce is off the board, we want to kill them asap, and waiting till turn 4 at least to do that is a little ambitious.

I should of been more clear about creatures I was playing:

Maindeck:
Sire
Elesh
Iona
3x Griselbrand

SB:
Aetherling
Grave Titan.

If you think Karakas will be more popular than Burn (not true for me personally in a local context) than having a titan main over iona is certainly reasonable.

Against most of the decks you bring in decay against, you are not unhappy drawing any number of them (delver variants and elves mostly). Since they need a clock and/or disruption to win. And decay answers the most common forms of both.

List is really nice and I recommend giving it a try for those on the fence, will be refraining from any more public musings until after NJ.

[attemanden]

Hello people.

I have been testing some reanimate builds over the last couple of days. And i have some questions. For me it seems like reanimate is a pretty fast combo deck when you have your combo pieces (like show and tell). The diffrence is that you have som answers vs some decks that will give you an auto-win, ex. elesh norn, sire of insanity etc. But it seems like you'r valnuable to too many diffrent cards. You can be discarded against, countered against, GY-hate, creature removal, medling mage, and the list goes on. Many SBs are packed with good cards against reanimate. Ive been playing against D&T, Miracles, Deathblade, UWR delver, as the 4 most played against decks, and they are boarding up to 13-14 cards in, not because their boards are build directly against reanimate, but because soo many cards are good against the deck. For me this is a problem since these are some of the most played decks in legacy.

Here are the most testet builds i've been running:

3 Griselbrand
1 Sire of insanity
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Blazing Arcon

4 Fow
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Entomb

4 Carefull study
4 Exhume
4 Reanimate
4 Thoughtseize
3 Ponder

3 Lotus Petal

1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Bayou
1 Tropical island
3 Underground sea
4 Polluted delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant catacomb

SB
2 Duress
2 Spell pierce
2 Show and tell
3 Abrupt decay
3 Pithing needle
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Ashen Rider
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind

Build 2:
-1 Lotus Petal +1 Underground sea (Better in grindy matchups and vs landhate).
-2 Daze +2 Pithing needle (needle main seems good since there are soo many karakas and DRS) + it seems like what you wanna counter is and creature removal after you've comboed off, and daze doesnt do that. Thoughtseize is better helping you go off than counterspells.

Build 3:
-2 Daze +2 Show and tell (more ways to combo off, and good vs MD hate.)

My expirience is that abrupt decay is really good in sideboard, aswell as needle. these cards gives you the possibilty to actaully grind your way to victory which gave me lots of wins against deathblade. Show and tell gives another wincon against GY hate which is good. But no my questioning starts; if you wanna board in S&T, and/or even have some MD, why not just play Sneak and tell?. another argument is that this deck fill so many slots with combo pieces: 4 entomb, 4 exhume, 4 reanimate, 4 carefull study, 7 creatures = 23 cards. this leaves very few slots left for search engines, protection etc. comparing to S&T which have 8 creatures and 8 combo cards = 16 cards og combo pieces, rest search and counterspells. Another thing is that this deck can be attack from fewer cards. GY hate and creature removal is very bad in this matchup. the same thing counts for Storm. fewer ways to counter it, and the discards spells in this deck are more efficient.

My conclusion is that there are too many good cards against this deck, and too many of them are MD (karakas and DRS). Its easy to board against, and you can spend too much time diggin. For example careful study is really bad if you have no creatures. then you just looses cards from your hand. the same thing goes for entomb (way better though). you just loose one card in your hand. again show and tell can do this with only one card (sneak attack or show and tell), Reanimate needs 2.

I have many thoughts about this deck. I really like it a lot especially since i use to play Lands. It is clear to me that there are a lot of play to it. Which i imagine is on the contrary to show and tell. Its also possible to win many grindy matchups.

What i would like is you guys enligten me of why i should play Reanimate over Sneak&Show and Storm. Thanks for your time :)

- Attemanden.

[DoorDie]

My expirience is that abrupt decay is really good in sideboard, aswell as needle. these cards gives you the possibilty to actaully grind your way to victory which gave me lots of wins against deathblade. Show and tell gives another wincon against GY hate which is good. But no my questioning starts; if you wanna board in S&T, and/or even have some MD, why not just play Sneak and tell?. another argument is that this deck fill so many slots with combo pieces: 4 entomb, 4 exhume, 4 reanimate, 4 carefull study, 7 creatures = 23 cards. this leaves very few slots left for search engines, protection etc. comparing to S&T which have 8 creatures and 8 combo cards = 16 cards og combo pieces, rest search and counterspells. Another thing is that this deck can be attack from fewer cards. GY hate and creature removal is very bad in this matchup. the same thing counts for Storm. fewer ways to counter it, and the discards spells in this deck are more efficient.

My conclusion is that there are too many good cards against this deck, and too many of them are MD (karakas and DRS). Its easy to board against, and you can spend too much time diggin. For example careful study is really bad if you have no creatures. then you just looses cards from your hand. the same thing goes for entomb (way better though). you just loose one card in your hand. again show and tell can do this with only one card (sneak attack or show and tell), Reanimate needs 2.

I have many thoughts about this deck. I really like it a lot especially since i use to play Lands. It is clear to me that there are a lot of play to it. Which i imagine is on the contrary to show and tell. Its also possible to win many grindy matchups.

What i would like is you guys enligten me of why i should play Reanimate over Sneak&Show and Storm. Thanks for your time :)

- Attemanden.

First off, it's worth noting that Reanimator has access to an astonishing amount of natural redundancy, more than most other combo decks. Careful Study, Hapless Researcher, Entomb, and even Thoughtseize are powerful T1 setup plays. Reanimate, Exhume, and Animate Dead are all stupidly undercosted allowing for an easy T2 fatty as a followup. That's 12+ copies of each enabler without making the combo more expensive with Wishes or Tutors. That also still leaves plenty of room for interaction and business cantrips, although the non-Entomb combos (all 3 pieces due to discarding a fatty) do take up more slots as you mentioned.

Secondly, Reanimator very capably races combo since its lockout targets are instant losses for linear strategies. Its game 1's against the field, both fair and unfair, are very favorable imho.

Naturally, the great equalizer is postboard hate. G2 and G3 against white decks can be tough, and plenty of color-neutral hate gets us. But the third point is we have plenty of room for boarded disruption, and insofar as Legacy goes we can run the best (Thoughtseize + Force alone is a beating). We can even afford the splash for Abrupt Decay to answer a wide swath of permanent hate (and Nature's Claim if Leyline is a card in your meta).

I like your list a lot and agree with a lot of the numbers by themselves, but I think that Lotus Petal is strategically at odds with Thoughtseize in this deck. Petal is obviously there for accelerating the combo when you "just have it" so that your opponent doesn't have time to sculpt, and Thoughtseize lengthens the game by spending mana and trading cards to clear the way for the combo. I'm not saying they can't be run together in some mix, but your build has the full 12 Force/Daze/Thoughtseize disruption package which would probably play more nicely with 18 lands or 17 lands + an Animate Dead as reanimation spell #9 (more consistent combo, pound through countermagic, etc.) instead of the 3 Petals. The other direction you could take is shaving some number of Thoughtseize and/or Daze for more combo pieces to go off more reliably on T1-T3.

I also suggest trying more aggressive mulligans if you're having troubles finding the combo. This deck can easily win off of a 4-5 card opener (some can be very strong with Daze backup). My rule is to open with the whole combo or at least 2/3 of the combo (Entomb, or any 2 of: fatty, discard, reanimation) AND a cantrip to find the missing piece. I'll take the first two mulligans as freerolls and only sweat if I can't get a good 5. I'm also much more lenient with Ponder + Brainstorm hands since Ponder T1 can set up an amazing Brainstorm T2 into the combo + protection or acceleration. Other people might have better advice, that's just what I do.

[Cwilburn]

So I plan on bringing a list quite similar to the one Jake M./Gilderbarin used in SCG NJ to a large local tourney. I expect there to be a strong contingent of DnT players (many of who repeatedly top 8), BUG Delver, UR Cruise Delver, Miracles, and maybe some deathblade or shardless.

I feel very confidant in the maindeck ( Same as Jake's), my concern is with the sideboard. With there being a real lack of graveyard centric decks in the meta, I feel comfortable in moving the 2 tormod's down to just one coffin purge. I have also taken out 1 spell pierce for the third duress. This leaves me with the following SB:

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Duress
1 Spell Pierce
1 Aetherling
1 Iona
1 Blazing Archon
1 Coffin purge
1 Crippling Fatigue
2 Pithing Needle
1 Massacre

So given the meta of delver and DnT with a splash of miracles, should I change anything up? Thoughts were adding a second massacre for the spell pierce or just going all out with 2 dread of night. Also would inkwell Leviathan or grave titan be better than Blazing Archon and/or Aetherling? Final concern is some of the BUG or shardless players will have leyline, would one echoing truth in the board be a good idea?

Thank you all and I look forward to enjoying the deck for some time to come.

[PirateKing]

Aetherling is only there for Miracles to hedge against Terminus. For everything else Inkwell Leviathan is better. If you're expecting only a splash of Miracles and heavy D&T then I'd run Inkwell.
Grave Titan helps in sheer power (10) as well as a hedge against Liliana. Doesn't really do much else besides beat hard on the ground.
Between the 3 Abrupt Decay and 3 Duress I think you could fit an Echoing Truth in there, depending on what angle you expect the hate to come from. If you've already maxed out on Thoughtseize in the main, 7 discard seems like a bold meta call.

[Gilderbarin216]

So I plan on bringing a list quite similar to the one Jake M./Gilderbarin used in SCG NJ to a large local tourney. I expect there to be a strong contingent of DnT players (many of who repeatedly top 8), BUG Delver, UR Cruise Delver, Miracles, and maybe some deathblade or shardless.

I feel very confidant in the maindeck ( Same as Jake's), my concern is with the sideboard. With there being a real lack of graveyard centric decks in the meta, I feel comfortable in moving the 2 tormod's down to just one coffin purge. I have also taken out 1 spell pierce for the third duress. This leaves me with the following SB:

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Duress
1 Spell Pierce
1 Aetherling
1 Iona
1 Blazing Archon
1 Coffin purge
1 Crippling Fatigue
2 Pithing Needle
1 Massacre

So given the meta of delver and DnT with a splash of miracles, should I change anything up? Thoughts were adding a second massacre for the spell pierce or just going all out with 2 dread of night. Also would inkwell Leviathan or grave titan be better than Blazing Archon and/or Aetherling? Final concern is some of the BUG or shardless players will have leyline, would one echoing truth in the board be a good idea?

Thank you all and I look forward to enjoying the deck for some time to come.


Current Board looks something like this:

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Duress
2 Torymods Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Blazing Archon
1 Aetherling
1 Iona

This is what i think my board will look like for sommerset. With BUG and UR delver getting the amount of publicity that it is, i think that 4 decay will be alright. As someone said before, i think that now drawing 2 a game is actually not too much of a detriment. Good v Elves to an extent as well. I think the chain could be a void snare, not sure at this point if the bounce clause is really too relevant, since you are rarely gonna need to bounce anything then you have a threat in play.

I dont think that any deck besides Nick fit, manaless dredge, and leylines really play leyline, so i think that it is not really too much of a concern. Surgical is picking up though, which makes duress and thoughtseize increasingly better.

If you think that death and taxes is really that much of a chunk in the meta, i would consider something like
-1 decay, -1 Chain, + 1 massacre, +1 darkblast or something along those lines. I would stay away from dread of night due to it's specificity. We want something that can kill deathrite too i think.

I think that Torymds crypt is important because the only graveyard based decks that are ever faster then us, are the dredge decks, and coffin purge leaves much to be desired in that matchup. 2 mana, for two cards is often not efficient enough, you need to kill them before they have access to a pile of therapies and unmasks etc. Regardless, i think that the free yard wipe is really crucial. Need 2 as well.

[Cwilburn]

Current Board looks something like this:

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Duress
2 Torymods Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Blazing Archon
1 Aetherling
1 Iona

This is what i think my board will look like for sommerset. With BUG and UR delver getting the amount of publicity that it is, i think that 4 decay will be alright. As someone said before, i think that now drawing 2 a game is actually not too much of a detriment. Good v Elves to an extent as well. I think the chain could be a void snare, not sure at this point if the bounce clause is really too relevant, since you are rarely gonna need to bounce anything then you have a threat in play.

I dont think that any deck besides Nick fit, manaless dredge, and leylines really play leyline, so i think that it is not really too much of a concern. Surgical is picking up though, which makes duress and thoughtseize increasingly better.

If you think that death and taxes is really that much of a chunk in the meta, i would consider something like
-1 decay, -1 Chain, + 1 massacre, +1 darkblast or something along those lines. I would stay away from dread of night due to it's specificity. We want something that can kill deathrite too i think.

I think that Torymds crypt is important because the only graveyard based decks that are ever faster then us, are the dredge decks, and coffin purge leaves much to be desired in that matchup. 2 mana, for two cards is often not efficient enough, you need to kill them before they have access to a pile of therapies and unmasks etc. Regardless, i think that the free yard wipe is really crucial. Need 2 as well.

The only reason I hesitate on the crypts is that other than myself, I expect at most one other reanimator player and 1-2 dredge players in a >30 man tournament. It would be a gamble I guess to go without them.

And have you found aetherling to be as effective in the miracles match-up as you were hoping?

Thanks for the input.

[Gilderbarin216]

Fair enough on the crypts, as to aetherling, it is the only creature that plays around everything in the miracles matchup. Beats red blast, swords, terminus and jace. While in the early game, you are gonna get griselbrand or site everytime, later in the game when a top and counterbalance are in play, aetherling is the best option to actually kill them.

[Que]

Do you not like S&T? I feel like I've gravitated towards it again because it gives the deck a different angle of attack. It makes it so that fatties in your hand aren't only good when paired with a Careful Study. It helps beat multiple hate on the board, because 1 Abrupt Decay can't deal with a DRS, Cage, and whatever Relic/Tomb etc.. they have on the board already. S&T makes it so you can play around all those things with a single card.

[Gilderbarin216]

My problem with show and tell is that it creates opportunities for interaction on the part of our opponent. While out deck is fast, and our combo efficient, the real reason that the deck is good is because of our ability to have permission. When you cast show and tell, sure it gives you an avenue to beat a hate card, but it also gives your opponent another chance to interact through permission. If you cast a turn two show and tell, you not only open yourself up to more interactive cards like reb, spell pierce and daze, but you also give them a "free roll" on their resolving a spell. That and I think that city of traitors takes away the consistency of the deck.

[beebles]

Went 8-2 at the Legacy Champs in Philly with my weird no thoughtseize version. http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25733-Deck-Reanimator&p=838456&viewfull=1#post838456 Yipee $100 bucks of store credit I am rich!

The metagame was something like 50 percent Delver at least. Played UR 3x, and played against bug twice.

Lost to UR delver and a Death and Taxes deck.

I think I have to retire my favorite Card sphinx of the steel wind and jump on the Tidespout Tyrant bandwagon. Sphinx, is there in no small part for his non legendary status as a hedge against Karakas, but he does not cut it against stupid d&t. They assemble mother of ruins + flyer and the beatdown party comes to a grinding halt. I need the power of the human raindrop.

You can not run show and tell, but I feel it really makes the deck way more consistent. I also think you need 8 fatties if you do run em so you can consistently get a fatty in hand and another in the yard. I like picking a fight over the reanimation spell and exhausting hopefully multiple counterspells from my opponent and then holding the harder to resolve Show and Tells for back up if I lose the first skirmish.

[Nuke is Good]

For those that run Tidespout Tyrant do you run animate dead in your lists? The one tactic I've seen when Tidespout is reanimated with Animate Dead and your opponent attempts to remove it, the reanimator pilot would use any instant to bounce the animate dead putting the tyrant back to the yard to animate again. In my local meta it doesn't work since Krosan Grip is making a comeback as sideboard hate.

I'm still looking for options against D&T. I have Empyrial Archangel mainboarded, 2 massacres in the sideboard, and even a helm of obedience since they love RIP so much.

[beebles]

For those that run Tidespout Tyrant do you run animate dead in your lists? The one tactic I've seen when Tidespout is reanimated with Animate Dead and your opponent attempts to remove it, the reanimator pilot would use any instant to bounce the animate dead putting the tyrant back to the yard to animate again. In my local meta it doesn't work since Krosan Grip is making a comeback as sideboard hate.

I'm still looking for options against D&T. I have Empyrial Archangel mainboarded, 2 massacres in the sideboard, and even a helm of obedience since they love RIP so much.

That is a pretty cool trick not sure if it is worth giving your opponent's Abrupt Decay's an actual target besides lotus petal.

[Stryfo]

There are a lot of DnT players in my meta and every single one of them has said that Tidespout Tyrant is the bane of their existence, if you get a D7 into a TT, they have almost no chance of winning, if they don't have swords for the tyrant, they just lose, and you can force swords if they do have it.

Animate dead has been great for me, being a target for abrupt decay is hardly ever relevant, if its on a griselbrand, you've drawn 7 so the damage is done, similarly with elesh, since their creatures are likely dead. As far as tidespout goes, you can actually save the animate dead as was discussed earlier. If the creature is Iona, you likely named black against the deck anyways.

I don't know what it is, but I've never really had trouble with DnT even though it seems to be considered one of our worst matchups.

[exallium]

There are a lot of DnT players in my meta and every single one of them has said that Tidespout Tyrant is the bane of their existence, if you get a D7 into a TT, they have almost no chance of winning, if they don't have swords for the tyrant, they just lose, and you can force swords if they do have it.

Animate dead has been great for me, being a target for abrupt decay is hardly ever relevant, if its on a griselbrand, you've drawn 7 so the damage is done, similarly with elesh, since their creatures are likely dead. As far as tidespout goes, you can actually save the animate dead as was discussed earlier. If the creature is Iona, you likely named black against the deck anyways.

I don't know what it is, but I've never really had trouble with DnT even though it seems to be considered one of our worst matchups.

I think as long as you play around Karakas and Swords, the matchup vs. D&T should be fine. It can suck game 1 if you don't know what you're up against, and, say, blow your combo on Griselbrand only to pick it back up with Karakas, but that seems to be it. With Tidespout and Ashen Rider both being viable ways to kill your opponent dead, I don't see the issue. Post board, they have access to maybe meekstone, but again, Ashen Rider / Tidespout is just unstoppable in this spot, and Needle can often be GG for Karakas. Thalia can be a pain, but you should be playing your petals out prematurely vs. the deck anyhow, to avoid her being an issue, and you really only end up maybe a turn later than desired because of her. They can't play multiple thalias, and if they're porting you on turn 2 it means they aren't doing something more hateful.

That being said, I haven't really played reanimator, but I'm super interested in the deck and it's the next one I intend to finish.

[Nuke is Good]

There are a lot of DnT players in my meta and every single one of them has said that Tidespout Tyrant is the bane of their existence, if you get a D7 into a TT, they have almost no chance of winning, if they don't have swords for the tyrant, they just lose, and you can force swords if they do have it.

Animate dead has been great for me, being a target for abrupt decay is hardly ever relevant, if its on a griselbrand, you've drawn 7 so the damage is done, similarly with elesh, since their creatures are likely dead. As far as tidespout goes, you can actually save the animate dead as was discussed earlier. If the creature is Iona, you likely named black against the deck anyways.

I don't know what it is, but I've never really had trouble with DnT even though it seems to be considered one of our worst matchups.

I envy you so much. The DnT players are what stopping me from hitting the weekly top 4's. I might have to modify my decklist but the MD Empyrial Archangel is a house against burn and makes the DnT players groan.

[Darksteel]

So Containment Priest (http://www.mythicspoiler.com/c14/cards/containmentpriest.html) is a thing now. The fact that it has flash is so annoying. lol

What does this mean for Reanimator? It kind of makes me want to run the full set of Thoughtseize to make sure the coast is clear before reanimating. It also warrants another Massacre, I think.

At least it doesn't shut off Show and Tell if it is put in simultaneously with a creature.

[bryanzoll]

At least it doesn't shut off Show and Tell if it is put in simultaneously with a creature.

Yeah, but any smart person would cast that creature in response to SnT. Then put batterskull into play off SnT. Whoooraayy DnT!

[exallium]

So Containment Priest (http://www.mythicspoiler.com/c14/cards/containmentpriest.html) is a thing now. The fact that it has flash is so annoying. lol

What does this mean for Reanimator? It kind of makes me want to run the full set of Thoughtseize to make sure the coast is clear before reanimating. It also warrants another Massacre, I think.

At least it doesn't shut off Show and Tell if it is put in simultaneously with a creature.

Means the abrupt decay package likely becomes a little more appealing if it isn't already standard =P Massacres work too.

[PirateKing]

So Containment Priest (http://www.mythicspoiler.com/c14/cards/containmentpriest.html) is a thing now. The fact that it has flash is so annoying. lol

What does this mean for Reanimator? It kind of makes me want to run the full set of Thoughtseize to make sure the coast is clear before reanimating. It also warrants another Massacre, I think.

At least it doesn't shut off Show and Tell if it is put in simultaneously with a creature.

Means I'm going full play set on main Thoughtseize and side Decay, up from 3 each. I have a single Massacre in the side, will probably go up to 2 if this becomes a thing. I'm going to wait and see how much this is a thing before committing that much sideboard to it. If people just replace their RiP with this guy, then it's not that much different from what we deal with already. If it's side by side, then it's time to adjust.

D&T and Miracles are already tricky match ups anyway. If you godhand them in the first 2 turns, you get there pretty easy if you know what you're doing. But if you misstep or are a turn too slow, Thalia + Rip + SotL + Mindcensor just pile on and then you're dead. Same story with CounterTop plus mana. This is just one more card in a long string of cards we're already adapted too.

This does hurt Dredge and Sneak&Show in ways they aren't used to however, if they start to falter I'd be curious to see what the main crowd starts building sideboards against in that absence.

[Gilderbarin216]

Abrupt decay looking pretty good now huh?

Anyway, i think that while this card is a real pain in the ass, it only solidifies where the the sideboard wants to be for future events and the gp. While i think that massacre is awesome, i might want another instant speed kill spell that is relatively cheap such as disfigure or muderous cut. I suppose that if mother of runes is active then they will be detrimental compared to massacre, but the applications in other mashups i believe is more important. Disfigure is good against the infinite delver decks, kills deathrite, and is very good v elves. I think that we probably want something like 4 decay and 2 disfigure in the slot that would usually house massacre or a bounce spell. I know for one, that if i am going to continue playing this deck, that i won't feel comfortable in the death and taxes matchup without at least 6 explicit answers to the card hitting the table.

Anyway, what do you guys think, how are you planning on dealing with this card. Do you think Miracles will play it? if so, is there a card better than disfigure for that matchup?

Jake

[Stryfo]

I don't think this will be as big as it is being made out to be.

The card does very little against the best decks in the format (Delver, Miracles, Storm, fair decks, etc.), and also has some very real anti-synergy with the deck itself. It's just another card that we can both counter easily and go under. What cards will DnT cut from a standard 75 to play this guy? How many can they feasibly play? It's not some kind of four-of all star like Thalia, it's effect is just not good against too many decks.

It is possible that a different deck comes to the floor that could play this card, but there aren't a huge number of decks that can really abuse this card (none come to mind).

Edit: Furthermore, we aren't considered to be one of their problem matchups, neither is Sneak and Show, what problem does this new card solve for them?

[Mhenlo]

Abrupt decay looking pretty good now huh?

Anyway, i think that while this card is a real pain in the ass, it only solidifies where the the sideboard wants to be for future events and the gp. While i think that massacre is awesome, i might want another instant speed kill spell that is relatively cheap such as disfigure or muderous cut. I suppose that if mother of runes is active then they will be detrimental compared to massacre, but the applications in other mashups i believe is more important. Disfigure is good against the infinite delver decks, kills deathrite, and is very good v elves. I think that we probably want something like 4 decay and 2 disfigure in the slot that would usually house massacre or a bounce spell. I know for one, that if i am going to continue playing this deck, that i won't feel comfortable in the death and taxes matchup without at least 6 explicit answers to the card hitting the table.

Anyway, what do you guys think, how are you planning on dealing with this card. Do you think Miracles will play it? if so, is there a card better than disfigure for that matchup?

Jake
...Chain of Vapor? It also answers Leyline, Relic, Crypt, Ooze, etc. I'd much rather them have this than RiP in Miracles, also the 4 Karakas deck really needs more answers to Griselbrand?

[Gilderbarin216]

...Chain of Vapor? It also answers Leyline, Relic, Crypt, Ooze, etc. I'd much rather them have this than RiP in Miracles, also the 4 Karakas deck really needs more answers to Griselbrand?

They typically only play 3 karakas, and yeah priest is good in a lot of places that aren't specifically reanimator. Dredge, show and tell, a bunch of fringe strategies that create some guys, the card is pretty versatile. While it probably won't see more play than a lot of cards in that slot i.e.. spirit of the lab and all of the other two drops, it will be a presence on the board of these decks. Chain is fine, but again I don't know if i want a bounce spell that isn't specifically great. I think that the deck is generally powerful enough that we no longer really need a blanket answer. I think that we want something that is insane in matchups where we really need hate. Disfigure/ massacre i think does what we want, where we want it. And yeah, I'm not particularly afraid of this card in any matchup that doesn't have vial.

[Mhenlo]

They typically only play 3 karakas, and yeah priest is good in a lot of places that aren't specifically reanimator. Dredge, show and tell, a bunch of fringe strategies that create some guys, the card is pretty versatile. While it probably won't see more play than a lot of cards in that slot i.e.. spirit of the lab and all of the other two drops, it will be a presence on the board of these decks. Chain is fine, but again I don't know if i want a bounce spell that isn't specifically great. I think that the deck is generally powerful enough that we no longer really need a blanket answer. I think that we want something that is insane in matchups where we really need hate. Disfigure/ massacre i think does what we want, where we want it. And yeah, I'm not particularly afraid of this card in any matchup that doesn't have vial.

Card is not versatile it is narrow, it dos literally nothing in so many match ups. Thalia and Teeg are versatile, this is more like Cannonist except against Griselbrand decks where they don't really need the help, and playing around it is just playing around yet another hate bear.

[Gilderbarin216]

With flash. For one white. That is literally impossible to play around without a thoughtsieze effect at many points in the game. Imagine a scenario where your opponent has a vial on two, a cavern on human or just multiple things to deal with. This card is very scary, and yes, is definitely versatile. Go back to casting tendrils friend. :)

[DoorDie]

RIP is still so much worse for us because it blows away any investment still left in the graveyard. It also cuts a much much much broader swath through the metagame. RIP doesn't need to bash for 2 or be cast EoT to lose us the game in a lot of spots. Abrupt Decay can be too little too late when your best play means you just have to go for it and hope they don't have it.

Interestingly I've played multiple tournaments and not faced 1 D&T yet, but I'm pretty sure it's a bad matchup at the end of the day for us. You can't board out all the legendary or farm-worthy creatures against Karakas/Swords, you can't really afford to fight over Aether Vial, you can't do anything about Cavern of Souls. Another hatebear added to the mix doesn't seem that intimidating to me. Still dies to Massacre, still gets Thoughtseized, still gets Abrupt Decayed, still gets Forced or Dazed without a Vial/Cavern. That's all without changing a card in the various 75's people tend to play.

[Mhenlo]

They typically only play 3 karakas, and yeah priest is good in a lot of places that aren't specifically reanimator. Dredge, show and tell, a bunch of fringe strategies that create some guys, the card is pretty versatile. While it probably won't see more play than a lot of cards in that slot i.e.. spirit of the lab and all of the other two drops, it will be a presence on the board of these decks. Chain is fine, but again I don't know if i want a bounce spell that isn't specifically great. I think that the deck is generally powerful enough that we no longer really need a blanket answer. I think that we want something that is insane in matchups where we really need hate. Disfigure/ massacre i think does what we want, where we want it. And yeah, I'm not particularly afraid of this card in any matchup that doesn't have vial.

If you were to play Disfigure would you side it in against UR Delver to slow down their clock? It hits Delver, Pyromancer and can hit Swift Spear.

[Nuke is Good]

If I went the U/G/B route for abrupt decay what would the manabase be like?

I currently use

2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Swamp
4 Underground Sea

My idea based on what I got:

2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bayou
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea

Maybe because I'm paranoid, I'm sorta tempted to put a basic forest in to make myself wasteland proof.

[PirateKing]

The threat of Containment Priest doesn't come from its perpetuity, it's from its natural reactionary play style. It's not so much a Rest in Peace is it is a Surgical Extraction, flashed in response to our Reanimate. Once out, it's no more threatening that Grafdigger's Cage, which only shuts off our finisher, but doesn't limit the set up. We're free to Careful Study into Containment Priest, EOT Abrupt Decay and then flash that golden Exhume.

For those preparing their sideboards for D&T, I'd be wary of targeted removal like Disfigure. Decay gets countered by game state with an active mom out, Disfigure and Crippling Fatigue fare no better. Massacre is the better card but much more narrow, offering no help in the Viking Funeral or other Delver lists.

For those running the BUg lists, have you considered a copy of Engineered Explosives as a global check all? When I ran straight UB, I had a copy of Ratchet Bomb, typically to blow at 0 against Delver and Dredge, but sometimes brought it in against Elves, D&T and even Miracles with moderate success. If the future of the deck is 3 colors, EE could provide better coverage than most bounce spells if we pack Abrupt Decay alongside.

[PirateKing]

If I went the U/G/B route for abrupt decay what would the manabase be like?

I currently use

2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Swamp
4 Underground Sea

My idea based on what I got:

2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea

Maybe because I'm paranoid, I'm sorta tempted to put a basic forest in to make myself wasteland proof.

You list Polluted Delta twice there. Also when discussing manabase, you should also list how many Petals you're running, since that's also critical in consistently casting Abrupt Decay.
Right now I'm
4 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Snow-Covered Swamp (for art reasons)
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Lotus Petal

If you're light on Petals then a Forest wouldn't be out of line, but I think that would be abundantly cautious. As long as you're fetching properly, losing both your green sources to Wasteland is unlikely.

[Stryfo]

With flash. For one white. That is literally impossible to play around without a thoughtsieze effect at many points in the game. Imagine a scenario where your opponent has a vial on two, a cavern on human or just multiple things to deal with. This card is very scary, and yes, is definitely versatile. Go back to casting tendrils friend. :)

Thoughtseize won't play around this guy, they can just cast it in response and make us deal with it on board. And it is EXTREMELY narrow, in that all of the decks it's any good against bar elves (Dredge, Reanimator, SnS), are already good matchups for DnT. It doesn't solve anything other than those matchups, which don't need solving, and they already have more versatile tools for winning those matchups and those tools don't interact poorly with vial. If this guy was their absolute best tool against elves, then I can see it getting a few slots, since that's a nightmare matchup for DnT. But elves isn't as scared of this card as we are, since they can still just cast glimpse and win the game, there are better options for that matchup.

@PirateKing, because of how reactionary the card appears, I think it will be easier to beat. I would argue that it is frequently correct to just cast it on turn two, but it becomes much easier to combo + counter on our turn 2 if they try to play it on our turn rather than theirs, and most people will be trying to get us rather than slow us down, which is all DnT really needs against us, some setup time.

Still @Pirateking, I've been using EE in 2 color lists to great effect, all of the important hate occurs on one or two anyways, so going to three colors doesn't change much.

[Nuke is Good]

You list Polluted Delta twice there. Also when discussing manabase, you should also list how many Petals you're running, since that's also critical in consistently casting Abrupt Decay.
Right now I'm
4 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Snow-Covered Swamp (for art reasons)
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Lotus Petal

If you're light on Petals then a Forest wouldn't be out of line, but I think that would be abundantly cautious. As long as you're fetching properly, losing both your green sources to Wasteland is unlikely.

Sorry had a brainfart while typing. 2 Scalding Tarns instead of the 2nd duplicate. I'm running a 2-2 Split of Petals and Daze's, I'm thinking of using more petals though now. I'd have to switch my Bloodstained Mires to Verdant Catacombs to justify the singleton forest but, it's all just theory at this point.

[DoorDie]

I don't like basic Forest if you're not maindecking Abrupt Decay. I used to sideboard a Forest for the Blood Moon matchups until eventually conceding it wasn't worth the slot. It's essentially colorless mana in a land-light U/B-heavy deck.

In fighting Wasteland you should win 9/10 times by just not fetching a green source until you need one. You need at most three or four green mana in any given game (unless you're boarding in other spice besides Abrupts), and two sources will likely be enough in most games.

I play Rituals over Petals and have never had any issues with the splash (running 4 Delta/2 Misty/2 Verdant/1 Trop/1 Bayou).

[Nuke is Good]

I don't like basic Forest if you're not maindecking Abrupt Decay. I used to sideboard a Forest for the Blood Moon matchups until eventually conceding it wasn't worth the slot. It's essentially colorless mana in a land-light U/B-heavy deck.

In fighting Wasteland you should win 9/10 times by just not fetching a green source until you need one. You need at most three or four green mana in any given game (unless you're boarding in other spice besides Abrupts), and two sources will likely be enough in most games.

I play Rituals over Petals and have never had any issues with the splash (running 4 Delta/2 Misty/2 Verdant/1 Trop/1 Bayou).

I'm so used to midrange strategies that I always considered basics in my deck. How do rituals play differently for you instead of petals?




Also for people that run 3x Griselbrand in their list. Do you miss the 4th one at all? I thought about cutting one just to shove an animate dead in there.

[toor]

Ratchet bomb seems like a really nice answer to containment priest. Since it works even if they flash it in, can't be stopped by MOM and has utility if they don't draw Priest. Better than EE because it doesn't take mana the turn you go off.

Only concern is that those decks play revoker. But can't have everything.

I also like that Ratchet gives us a random out to leylines/humility. Really clever!

[DoorDie]

I'm so used to midrange strategies that I always considered basics in my deck. How do rituals play differently for you instead of petals?

Also for people that run 3x Griselbrand in their list. Do you miss the 4th one at all? I thought about cutting one just to shove an animate dead in there.

I run 3, can't tell the difference and haven't looked back. We still have 7 Griselbrands, and shaving one physical copy makes space for an additional silver bullet, making both Entomb and Griselbrand's draw 7 stronger. I like Sphinx of the Steel Wind as a hedge against U/R Delver.

I prefer Dark Ritual over Lotus Petal because it's a stronger raw accelerant (2 mana over 1, basically halfway between Lotus Petal and Black Lotus). It powers out the Entomb combos, resulting in better nut draws because T1 Entomb -> Exhume is now feasible. Same goes for cantripping into the combo and going off the same turn; Dark Ritual moves the combo turn forward more often.

The difference in U/B Reanimator is straightforward to show mathematically. With 0 untapped lands only Lotus Petal can combo but only in multiples which is unlikely and therefore irrelevant. On 2+ untapped lands both can accelerate every combination (unless you have exactly only basic Island + Trop or basic Swamp + Bayou, which is unlikely, but then Ritual is worse). So assume 1 untapped land. Then Petal can cast every enabler (Entomb, Careful Study, Hapless Researcher, Thoughtseize) but only one reanimation spell (Reanimate). Additionally all of the enablers besides Entomb are 3-card combos since you must have a fatty in hand or lucksack into one. On one land (an untapped Swamp), Dark Ritual can cast two enablers (Entomb, Thoughtseize) and all the reanimation spells (Reanimate, Exhume, Animate Dead), and additionally they are all 2-card combos except for Thoughtseize. So Ritual overpowers Petal when you are on one untapped land, either turn 1 or Brainstorm into the combo on turn 2, etc.

The whole point of acceleration is to bust out your combo in the same turn, so accelerating Brainstorms and Ponders doesn't appeal to me. Petal plays better around soft countermagic, but I am generally happy trading off a Ritual for a Daze or Pierce. I cut accelerants when I bring in interaction like Abrupt Decay because the games will tend to drag out and invalidate fast mana.

If you run the full 4x Ritual then hardcasting Griselbrand becomes an out in long games, but I've cut down to 2x since it has a more diminished return in this deck than Petal in multiples.

[PirateKing]

Ratchet bomb seems like a really nice answer to containment priest. Since it works even if they flash it in, can't be stopped by MOM and has utility if they don't draw Priest. Better than EE because it doesn't take mana the turn you go off.

Only concern is that those decks play revoker. But can't have everything.

I also like that Ratchet gives us a random out to leylines/humility. Really clever!

Ratchet Bomb is good if you anticipate X= 0 or 1
Engineered Explosives is good if you anticipate X = 2 or 3

I ran mine for tokens & flipped delvers and Deathrite Shaman mostly, so it made sense. If I expect to go up against 2s like RiP or Thalia then I's run EE.

[Kirika]

Artifact (4)
4 Lotus Petal

Blue (19)
4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study
2 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Ponder
2 Show and Tell
1 Tidespout Titan

Black (19)
4 Entomb
4 Exhume
1 Grave Titan
3 Griselbrand
4 Reanimate
3 Thoughtseize

Multicolor (1)
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind

White (2)
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

Lands (15)
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea

Sideboard (15)
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Ashen Rider
2 City of Traitors
1 Echoing Truth
2 Massacre
3 Pithing Needle
2 Show and Tell

This is what I been testing having cut 1 Island and 1 Swamp for Bayou and Tropical Island and cutting 2 Engineered Explosives and a Flustersorm from the board for 3 Abrupt Decay.
Sphinx is for the RU Delver match up. They can sometimes race a griselbrand especially if you reanimated it. Not so with Sphinx of the Steel Wind.
Grave Titan has been my goto creature for Liliana decks for awhile although it is really embarassing vs Elephant Grass.
Considering the 4th Decay but not sure what to remove from the board maybe the 3rd needle but needle is important for Karakas and planeswalkers like Liliana and Jace. Not sure I like Decay better then explosives since Decay can not remove multiple threats but it being an instant is nice. Its nice to be able to kill things like Liliana without a Lotus Petal and 2 turns.
Also considering adding Engineered Explosives back since I did like it as a catch all and it got rid of multiple Rest in Peace or Deathrite Shaman.


I am not actually sure we are going to see that many Containment Priests. What exactly does Deathblade, Death and Taxes, Jeskai Delver cut from its board for Containment Priest? They typically have 2 Rest in Peace and 1 Grafdigger's Cage for anti graveyard hate. Death and Taxes is already a bad match up with 3 main deck Karakas and Swords to Plowshares.

@Pirateking
I always prefered Engineered Explosives to Rachet Bomb. Rachet Bomb took to long to Rachet up if you wanted to kill things that cost 2 or 3. like Rest in peace or Ensnaring Bridge.

[Gilderbarin216]

Been thinking about it recently. With the amount of UR delver, Burn and Elves that i'm expecting at the GP, i think I'm going to move the iona to the main and sire to the board. Sire is still very important in a variety of matchups where iona doesn't do everything you want. Against storm, miracles, a bunch of midrange decks and omni tell, Sire is still very good. With that in mind, i think that i want a 5th discard spell in the main. Ive found that therapy is lackluster in a strategy where you can beat every piece of permission, just not in abundance. Thats why i want another targeted discard spell, and i think that duress is the best for the job. Discard spells are much more powerful against the delver decks than counterspells because they are better suited to fight you, have red blast, and have a variety of spells to play around. Knowing what to fight when is really crucial.

So, in order to piece another card in the main i have cut an underground sea
Mana base now looks like

4 polluted delta
2 verdant catacombs
1 misty rainforest

3 underground sea
1 tropical island
1 bayou
1 island
1 swamp

3 petal.

What do we think about running 17 sources in a field of dazes? Should i shave a daze of my own? It makes delver matchups better to shave a daze for a land, but with that we lose a little potency of grislebrand, and also some action with regards to deathrite. Any input on where we want to be mana-source wise?

Thanks
Jake

[cogitoergosum]

Been thinking about it recently. With the amount of UR delver, Burn and Elves that i'm expecting at the GP, i think I'm going to move the iona to the main and sire to the board. Sire is still very important in a variety of matchups where iona doesn't do everything you want. Against storm, miracles, a bunch of midrange decks and omni tell, Sire is still very good. With that in mind, i think that i want a 5th discard spell in the main. Ive found that therapy is lackluster in a strategy where you can beat every piece of permission, just not in abundance. Thats why i want another targeted discard spell, and i think that duress is the best for the job. Discard spells are much more powerful against the delver decks than counterspells because they are better suited to fight you, have red blast, and have a variety of spells to play around. Knowing what to fight when is really crucial.

So, in order to piece another card in the main i have cut an underground sea
Mana base now looks like

4 polluted delta
2 verdant catacombs
1 misty rainforest

3 underground sea
1 tropical island
1 bayou
1 island
1 swamp

3 petal.

What do we think about running 17 sources in a field of dazes? Should i shave a daze of my own? It makes delver matchups better to shave a daze for a land, but with that we lose a little potency of grislebrand, and also some action with regards to deathrite. Any input on where we want to be mana-source wise?

Thanks
Jake

I really think you want 14 lands and 4 lotus petals, or 15 lands and 3 lotus petals, especially if you are running the green splash. I think that 14-3 will only work consistently in the UB list.

[DoorDie]

What do we think about running 17 sources in a field of dazes? Should i shave a daze of my own? It makes delver matchups better to shave a daze for a land, but with that we lose a little potency of grislebrand, and also some action with regards to deathrite. Any input on where we want to be mana-source wise?

It's a hairline cut so we're not talking major percentage points here. You're a tad worse versus Wasteland which doesn't seem as prevalent right now.

Personally I'm a fan of shaving a Daze for the Duress and shaving a Petal for a land to convert it to a permanent mana source, so you'll have a 15-3 mana source division and a full 12x disruption package. Discard costs mana which slows us down, so anytime you have double or triple discard draw, you're likely headed to T3 and beyond before comboing where the acceleration becomes less relevant. A lot of builds run less than the full 12 disruption spells and just rely on extra combo pieces to push through countermagic.

[PirateKing]

I agree. I see it like this:

Lotus Petal and Daze are fast cards, and their relevancy is when turn 1 & 2 reanimations are your goal. If that's how you read your meta and wish to play the deck, 4 of each gets you that.
Ponder and Thoughtseize (or Duress for 5-8) are long cards, you want them when you're comfortable going off turn 3 & 4 because you know the coast is clear and you're under minimal pressure.

For both lists, I think 18 is the ideal number of mana producing permanents. You shouldn't need to go less than this unless you're attempting to double dip on the cards above.

For those with the high-speed low0drag Dark Ritual build, god only knows. You're braver than I.