[Deck]BUx Reanimator

[tarmogoat]

Sunken Hollow might be ok, though you may want +1 fetch. River of Tears probably plays better with a strategy that wants 2 basics in play than Darkslick Shores.

The thing about hollow is that is slow, as I want to fetch untapped for EoT Entomb or Brainstorm, or my own turn to Thoughtseize/Ponder/Study or even Reanimate/Exhume/Animate/S&T. It gives up the big plays like Griselbrand or the Iona/Elesh Norn 'lock' free wins in T2 or T1 if you open with that as your only land.
I tried River of Tears but sometimes you find yourself needing BB for Entomb + Reanimation or Thoughtseize + Reanimation for protection and if you don't hit a land drop you're screwed. It usually doesn't give you the color you need when you want it.


If i were you i would add 2 Verdant Catacombs. (Fetch for black or postboard fetch for the tropical/bayou)
8 fetches without many duals seems better. I think your first fetch can be a watery grave. 2 life isnt a problem. Maybe you can add a second watery grave but that is your decision. If you fetch for the second land you can fetch on basics. I often do this because i am scared of wasteland^^ darkslick shores seems great because you dont need more then two lands. We have a low curve and play petals.
I think I could drop 2 Strands and move to 2 Catacombs, it does make a lot of sense. Not sure about a second Shockland though. I'm also considering Underground River and rainbow lands. I've even come to thing about the old 3 colored Lairs (Crosis's Catacombs and Dromar), but seem too weak as they rely on other prvious land drops or a leap of faith of sacrificing it like a petal.

[Fox]

You could also consider Tainted Isle...maybe it's ok as a 1x? Still it's going to be rough playing daze with only 2 lands (island and trop) as targets; I don't see this ending well for you even if you're preserving 2 life from each play of a shock.

[tarmogoat]

You could also consider Tainted Isle...maybe it's ok as a 1x? Still it's going to be rough playing daze with only 2 lands (island and trop) as targets; I don't see this ending well for you even if you're preserving 2 life from each play of a shock.

That's my fear too! Also tried Tainted Isle but it translates to mulligan as the only land in opener. That's why darkslick shores is so amazing, it works marvels. If only it could be bounced with daze T_T. There's 3 actual islands in the deck 1 Trop, 1 Watery and 1 Island, with 7 fetches so technically 10/14 lands are islands (except they're not). It being though to play it like this and I don't know if it can be improved. The supremacy of Grixis Delver and BUG delver, the rise of UR Delver and Eldrazi, the slight raise in burn all indicates me that I should go away from playing shocklands, but I guess I still have to play at least 2 of them :(.

[owerbart]

If you already have Trop you can get away by playing basics and a heavy petal build. You'd probably have to cut dazes though, which a lot of people already don't like.

I've been having surprising success with this list lately:

3 Griselbrand
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Grave Titan
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Tundra
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Lotus Petal
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
1 Animate Dead
2 Thoughtseize
2 Show and Tell
4 Entomb
4 Careful Study
3 Daze
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

SB:

3 Abrupt Decay
2 Serenity
1 Teferi's Realm
1 Mindshrieker
2 Pithing Needle
1 Keranos, God of Storms
2 Show and Tell
2 Thoughtseize
1 Spell Pierce

Mindshrieker has been a beast for me lately, it's easy to cast and post-board a lot people board out Decay and Bolts, so they have a lot of trouble to deal with the bird. It also works as a milling engine, so while your opponent needs to take care of that thing, you are already setting yourself up. Serenities and Realm are a response to the Eldrazi decks although to be honest I feel that that matchup is favorable for us, you just need to take care of Warping Wail.

[PirateKing]

Serenities and Realm are a response to the Eldrazi decks although to be honest I feel that that matchup is favorable for us, you just need to take care of Warping Wail.

They are until the moment the popular consensus shifts towards the white build, then it becomes an absolute nightmare. I keep checking results and the threads to see where they're headed, but for the moment its a zoo over there, so who knows.

[Damaku]

Where would you use Teferi's Realm? How is it used?

[PirateKing]

Where would you use Teferi's Realm? How is it used?

You'd use it against taxing or locking elements of your opponent's deck. So if you're being bothered by Counterbalance, Rest in Peace, Chalice of the Void, Ensnaring Bridge, Thalia, Maze of Ith and things like that, you can phase those things out and play your turn unmolested.

It's the blue City of Solitude essentially, lets you negate one type of card, at the cost of the symmetrical effect that could come to bite you in the ass.

[Fox]

Where would you use Teferi's Realm? How is it used?
Choose artifact: reanimate through cage. cast through chalice.
Choose enchantment: no longer symmetrical, stock yard through RiP/Leyline
Choose creature: reanimate through Containment Priest
Choose land: you need to be on Tin-Fins (instant speed reanimation), or it beats Maze/Chasm.

[draugr]

Hey folks, I recently came across this mono-black list from GP Kyoto that got 3rd.
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=9593&d=255101&f=LE

Do you think this was luck, or is this a solid list?

[Damaku]

Choose artifact: reanimate through cage. cast through chalice.
Choose enchantment: no longer symmetrical, stock yard through RiP/Leyline
Choose creature: reanimate through Containment Priest
Choose land: you need to be on Tin-Fins (instant speed reanimation), or it beats Maze/Chasm.

Thank you guys! I somehow got it in my head that it only phases my permanents. This is actually verry sweet!

For the Eldrazi i worked succesfully with stormetide. I think he has a slot in my side now.

[PirateKing]

Choose land: you need to be on Tin-Fins (instant speed reanimation), or it beats Maze/Chasm.

If you know they don't have Force of Will or Surgical Extraction or I guess Faerie Macabre, naming lands then dropping your land for turn and playing Reanimate will let you ignore Daze or Spell Peirce or other countermagic like that. Kind of fringe, but it'll happen.

[jrw1985]

Hey folks, I recently came across this mono-black list from GP Kyoto that got 3rd. http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=9593&d=255101&f=LE Do you think this was luck, or is this a solid list?
Any deck running Lake of the Dead is good in my book. T3 hard cast Grave Titan? Yes please. It's very cool that they found a mix of two different decks that have some surprising synergies. Smallpox and Lilly to discard fatties, Grave Titans to hard cast, cool shit.

[Digitend89]

Hi long time lurker here deciding to post. I've been reading the thread since the DTT ban and pretty much settled on reanimator as my MTGO legacy deck of choice. Just have some last minute doubts to shake off. Pretty much everyone I asked says DRS really hampers reanimator game plan and I want to ask the experts some questions.
Are the side board cards enough to fight through the hate or its something I have to accept as something any combo deck has to deal with?
There are three variants. One has lotus petals to power turn one reanimation. One has hapless researcher to be more resilient and one that splashes red for Izzet charms for utility (damage/counter/discard). Do I have this correct?
Thanks

[kingtk3]

Hi long time lurker here deciding to post. I've been reading the thread since the DTT ban and pretty much settled on reanimator as my MTGO legacy deck of choice. Just have some last minute doubts to shake off. Pretty much everyone I asked says DRS really hampers reanimator game plan and I want to ask the experts some questions.
Are the side board cards enough to fight through the hate or its something I have to accept as something any combo deck has to deal with?
There are three variants. One has lotus petals to power turn one reanimation. One has hapless researcher to be more resilient and one that splashes red for Izzet charms for utility (damage/counter/discard). Do I have this correct?
Thanks

Welcome to the source! I'll be quick

Against Deathrite Shaman you can:

be faster (lotus petals and gemstone mines help here)
use some show and tell maindeck
use some kind of removal maindeck (izzet charm is one of the most used because it double as discard outlet and counter)
play some castable threat maindeck (grave titan comes into mind)
cast exhume with two creatures in your grave, since exhume doesn't target but let you choose a creature on resolution. Hapless researcher helps you in this way, because you can sac him after a DRS/tormod/relic/surgical to put another creature in the grave for exhume



Post side you can bring pithing needle, decay and massacre to deal with it, since they are cards you're likely to play against a number of decks.

The lines above should have answered both your questions, but feel free to ask for more ^_^

Cheers.

[Digitend89]

@King thanks for you response. I feel like though there is a lot of hate out there this deck has all it need to fight through it. Maybe I just needed someone to verify to make me shake off some doubts.

Another question for you guys. How does this deck plays the grindy game? What I've been doing is just dig dig dig and use my counter and such just to live long enough to dig some more.

[kingtk3]

@King thanks for you response. I feel like though there is a lot of hate out there this deck has all it need to fight through it. Maybe I just needed someone to verify to make me shake off some doubts.

Another question for you guys. How does this deck plays the grindy game? What I've been doing is just dig dig dig and use my counter and such just to live long enough to dig some more.

The selling feature of Reanimator is its blazing speed: turn 1 or 2 Griselbrand are quite often and some decks cannot do anything about it. Then in G2/3 they bring in hate, but still they have to draw it and be able to cast it before you combo off: this is no small task since our speed is our best weapon.

Unfortunately this backfire in long games because this deck is not well equipped to fight grindy gamee. The concept alone to "cheat" a big monster into play is based on the principle to have a gamestate that your opponent cannot answer in proper time, but if some decks are given time they can deal with our monsters.
This means that the long game is not where this deck want to play.

However against some decks, most of all tempo, you can play the grindy game because they really don't have ways to deal with us apart from counters and speed (reanimator is a kind of tempo deck itslef): we have counters, discards and some removals, so we can tailor a temporal window to combo off.

I once played a very long and grindy game against UWB stoneblade which involved casting S&T for griselbrand, attacking with him and casting another S&T for grisel (in order to have a blocker, since I was low on life), casting a grave titan and finally hardcasting griselbrand with my last petal. I won that game, and it was very fun to play for both me and my opponent, but it was a very peculiar situation.

[AnvilOfCrom]

Any deck running Lake of the Dead is good in my book. T3 hard cast Grave Titan? Yes please. It's very cool that they found a mix of two different decks that have some surprising synergies. Smallpox and Lilly to discard fatties, Grave Titans to hard cast, cool shit.

This List (which looks very nice) finally gives me an excuse to buy a Lake of the Dead :D

What do you guys think of Necropolis Fiend or Tombstalker in the Sideboard?

[Deckerator]

I am not sure about Tombstalker in the sideboard. First off all you make yourself more graveyard dependant postboard but in the same way you will face graveyard hate post sideboard. This should not be the main aim postboard.

I think in g2/3 you shouldnt rely
on the graveyard more then in g1

You can give it a try and tell us how it worked for you.

[owerbart]

Another really cheeky way of dealing with DRS is to hide until the las second that you are en Reanimator. If they dont ser it coming is usual for them to get leap of mana in their turn.

Another card that i really like having in my board is Mindshrieker.

[kingtk3]

Another really cheeky way of dealing with DRS is to hide until the las second that you are en Reanimator. If they dont ser it coming is usual for them to get leap of mana in their turn.

Another card that i really like having in my board is Mindshrieker.

How is Mindshrieker? What are the matchups that it helps in?

[owerbart]

How is Mindshrieker? What are the matchups that it helps in?

It has helped me a lot in the delver\midrangey decks. Specially because they take out things like bolt and decay so the Bird is harder to kill. Also it has the ability to close out games quickly while also setting up fatties in the graveyard.

[Islandswamp]

I'm going to be trying a main-deck Engineered Explosives soon. It's in my list but I haven't been able to play another League for a while.

Pithing Needle is another completely defensable main deck inclusion, but with all of the Eldrazi on MTGO at this point I want another main-deck answer to Chalice of the Void.

On the topic of Eldrazi I will say that Blazing Archon is the truth. It is so great against them, and also helps against decks that want to make Marit Lage. Good times.

I wrote about my lists here: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/raising-the-dead-a-guide-to-legacy-reanimator - Feel free to let me know what you think. One reader commented about my omission of the DRS workaround involving Exhume, and that is a fair point. Maybe in another article someday...

[Damaku]

I'm going to be trying a main-deck Engineered Explosives soon. It's in my list but I haven't been able to play another League for a while.

Pithing Needle is another completely defensable main deck inclusion, but with all of the Eldrazi on MTGO at this point I want another main-deck answer to Chalice of the Void.

On the topic of Eldrazi I will say that Blazing Archon is the truth. It is so great against them, and also helps against decks that want to make Marit Lage. Good times.

I wrote about my lists here: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/raising-the-dead-a-guide-to-legacy-reanimator - Feel free to let me know what you think. One reader commented about my omission of the DRS workaround involving Exhume, and that is a fair point. Maybe in another article someday...

The Archon is the way!
I tested him and Stormtide (each maindeck) verry sucesfull in the past weeks.

[kingtk3]

It has helped me a lot in the delver\midrangey decks. Specially because they take out things like bolt and decay so the Bird is harder to kill. Also it has the ability to close out games quickly while also setting up fatties in the graveyard.

I'm intrigued: can you post your list and explain how you side (what other cards you bring in and what you take out) and what is your strategy when you bring in the Bird?


I'm going to be trying a main-deck Engineered Explosives soon. It's in my list but I haven't been able to play another League for a while.

Pithing Needle is another completely defensable main deck inclusion, but with all of the Eldrazi on MTGO at this point I want another main-deck answer to Chalice of the Void.

On the topic of Eldrazi I will say that Blazing Archon is the truth. It is so great against them, and also helps against decks that want to make Marit Lage. Good times.

I wrote about my lists here: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/raising-the-dead-a-guide-to-legacy-reanimator - Feel free to let me know what you think. One reader commented about my omission of the DRS workaround involving Exhume, and that is a fair point. Maybe in another article someday...

Good article, I agree with all your points.

As you are writing now, I think that Engineered Explosives deserves a mention because it can handle different types of hate at the same CC as instant speed (once deployed ofc), eg DRS + Relic + Cage + spellbomb, or Counterbalance + RIP + Containment priest.
Indeed you should have talked a little about the priest because it invalidates both reanimate and S&T: maybe in your next article you could talk about the versions without the petals and with some removals maindeck like izzet charm, which is useful to fight creature based hate.

Just my two cents.

[Maikhell]

Hi guys.

So, I was thinking, considering that the deck already runs Entomb and some green producing lands, wouldn't be viable to use 1 Ray of Revelation and 1 Ancient Grudge as ways to instant deal with RIP, Relic, Tormod... Since the deck have some Lotus Petal is even possible to cast with the normal cost. Also, considering the topic, 1 Crippling Fatigue in the SB could be used to deal with Deathrite and the Priest.

Anyway, just some ideas. What do you guys think?

[Noctalor]

Hi guys.

So, I was thinking, considering that the deck already runs Entomb and some green producing lands, wouldn't be viable to use 1 Ray of Revelation and 1 Ancient Grudge as ways to instant deal with RIP, Relic, Tormod... Since the deck have some Lotus Petal is even possible to cast with the normal cost. Also, considering the topic, 1 Crippling Fatigue in the SB could be used to deal with Deathrite and the Priest.

Anyway, just some ideas. What do you guys think?

Gl flashbacking vs RIP


Btw is not that bad of an idea, but you usually dont really wanna waste an entomb, your best combo piece of the deck so im not that sure about it

[Maikhell]

Yea, I do know that we don't usualy wants to waste Entomb, but still is nice to have the option.

About the RIP point, my suggestion was, naturally about the situation: Opponent plays RIP, you respond with Entomb to Ray of Revelation, RIP hits the field and triggers goes to stack, you respond with the flashback of Ray. Ok, you lose your grave, but RIP is no longer in play.
I know is kinda narrow, but anyway... it's an idea.

[Fox]

What you're looking for on-color is Stifle, the card pitches to force and can run interference vs RiP, Karakas, Faerie Macabre, Lilly, Maze, etc...

[Blastoderm]

What you're looking for on-color is Stifle, the card pitches to force and can run interference vs RiP, Karakas, Faerie Macabre, Lilly, Maze, etc...

Pithing Needle hits all of those except RiP.

[theMonster]

Hey, y'all, thinking about sleeving up Reanimator for a monthly at my LGS tomorrow. I have all the pieces for the BUg build, which I've played in a few events.

Some questions:

- Presently I'm running maindeck Ponders. I've only really seen Hapless Researcher in the four-color versions, and it doesn't look like those are doing as well as the three-color ones. Do they play Researcher because Izzet Charm's loot mode allows you to see enough cards? Or is it due to the slower nature of the deck and the need to, say, block a Tarmogoyf sometimes? I like the utility of Researcher, but I wonder if it's as effective as Ponder in a more explosive shell.

- Looks like 7 maindeck reanimation targets is the norm now. That true? I've been running 8 guys/9 reanimation spells (0 Show and Tell). And is Archetype of Endurance a mainstay now? If so, when is he the first Entomb target? My guess is against DnT and maybe Miracles game 1.

Thanks!

[Stryfo]

@theMonster:

-Hapless researcher is better in a more explosive list than ponder, since it doesn't take up an entire turn to not combo like ponder.

-Archetype is almost never the first entomb target, it should almost always be griselbrand, unless you are in a matchup where elesh or iona ends the game.

[PirateKing]

I like the utility of Researcher, but I wonder if it's as effective as Ponder in a more explosive shell.

If by explosive shell you mean a build with Lotus Petals to power out a T1 Entomb & Reanimate, I don't see how Ponder assists in that at all. Your turn 1 Ponder does nothing to aid in your combo, only helps you set up a stronger turn 2 combo, which is the opposite of explosive. You're sacrificing that speed for a safer combo turn. If anything, Hapless Researcher leans you towards a more explosive build, maximizing your 1 mana discard outlets, increasing the chances of having Land + Lotus Petal + Reanimate + Entomb -or- Creature&Careful Study -or- Creature&Hapless Researcher. Land + Lotus Petal + Reanimate + Creature + Ponder is a fine hand to keep for sure, but you're not doing anything explosive, that's for sure.

[Deckerator]

I want to test Xantid Swarm in the sb against the control decks. Has anyone already done some testing with it?

[owerbart]

Hi. In case some of you are still wondering, Teferi's Realm DOES NOT interact with Animate Dead. The card (and the ruling) clearly state that what you phase are GLOBAL ENCHANTMENTS, or "Non-Aura" enchantments, as the ruling states.

[Fox]

Hi. In case some of you are still wondering, Teferi's Realm DOES NOT interact with Animate Dead. The card (and the ruling) clearly state that what you phase are GLOBAL ENCHANTMENTS, or "Non-Aura" enchantments, as the ruling states.
More to the point, the phasing mechanic and all of its relevant cards are deliberately unable to phase-out local enchantments [auras] directly (if we can assume they have not been animated into creatures), to include Licid and Bestow mechanics. It is important to note that Theros-block "enchantment creatures" are global enchantments. Remember that Realm costs :u::u: which will move emphasis from Verdant Catacombs to Misty Rainforest in secondary fetch slot.
Realm is also the only Enchant World that gets better with multiples; while you will only get one upkeep with double triggers before SBAs kill the one phasing back in, you still have that one turn to knock out creatures [priest] and artifacts [cage].

[TheHeff]

Hi all, I've been playing a lot of Shardless over the last 2 years or so and have been getting a little bored with it and wanted to pick up a combo deck to play for awhile. Tried ANT, but it was too much about sculpting the "perfect hand." Trying to stay in these colors though, and it seems like reanimator has a very strong combo matchup. I've done some goldfishing with the deck and it seems strong, but how is it positioned currently? It seems like the eldrazi matchup should be good, as long as you can deal with a Chalice on 1. The white splash version with MD containment priest seems terribad, but doesn't seem that popular. Would you recommend it for someone looking for a change of pace but still looking to be competitive in the "new" meta?

[Cpt-Qc]

Hi all, I've been playing a lot of Shardless over the last 2 years or so and have been getting a little bored with it and wanted to pick up a combo deck to play for awhile. Tried ANT, but it was too much about sculpting the "perfect hand." Trying to stay in these colors though, and it seems like reanimator has a very strong combo matchup. I've done some goldfishing with the deck and it seems strong, but how is it positioned currently? It seems like the eldrazi matchup should be good, as long as you can deal with a Chalice on 1. The white splash version with MD containment priest seems terribad, but doesn't seem that popular. Would you recommend it for someone looking for a change of pace but still looking to be competitive in the "new" meta?

The meta is highly subjective, at my store there is now 2 MUD players, 2 Eldrazi players, 3 dredge players and 1 manaless dredge player. Add to this the rogue decks and goblins and the like, my meta is pretty weird right now :P

[owerbart]

Hi all, I've been playing a lot of Shardless over the last 2 years or so and have been getting a little bored with it and wanted to pick up a combo deck to play for awhile. Tried ANT, but it was too much about sculpting the "perfect hand." Trying to stay in these colors though, and it seems like reanimator has a very strong combo matchup. I've done some goldfishing with the deck and it seems strong, but how is it positioned currently? It seems like the eldrazi matchup should be good, as long as you can deal with a Chalice on 1. The white splash version with MD containment priest seems terribad, but doesn't seem that popular. Would you recommend it for someone looking for a change of pace but still looking to be competitive in the "new" meta?

I haven't got that many problems with Eldrazi. Chalice in 1 you can beat it just by discarding to handsize and then exhuming/animate dead. post board Serenity and Teferi's Realm have made serious work for me. I also play 4 Show and Tells (2 main 2 side) to battle RIP. If eldrazi is big in your meta, have a copy of Blazing Archon or Stormtide leviathan in your sideboard for a GG.

MD Containment Priest I've never seen, but I guess that's the only spell you really need to counter. G1 if they are colorless I go for Elesh Norn to buy time and then Grizz. If White, I go for Grave Titan

[TheHeff]

@owerbart: Do you happen to have a list handy? I'm particularly interested in SBs and Serenity/Teferi's sound amazing.

Here's the list I'm thinking about running, looking for any comments or suggestions you all might have:

2x Verdant Catacombs
2x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
1x Swamp
1x Island
1x Bayou
1x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea

4x Lotus Petal
4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
3x Daze
2x Thoughtseize
4x Careful Study
4x Entomb
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
1x Animate Dead

4x Griselbrand
1x Iona
1x Elesh Norm
1x Tidespout Tyrant

Sideboard:
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Echoing Truth
2x Duress
1x Flusterstorm
2x Massacre
3x Pithing Needle
2x Show and Tell
1x Inkwell Leviathan

I'm taking this into a pretty unknown meta, but most likely it's a pretty healthy mix. Also, is MD grave titan that good? I can see it being great against Lili decks, but with Shardless cutting down to 2 (in some cases 1) MD and BUG delver going to 1 or 0, is it still so relevant? It seems much less powerful than Griselbrand when you end up with it as your only creature in hand and need to discard it to careful study. Iona on black has to be a better option, yes?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

No, Grave Titan is your fastest threat in the form of a 2-turn clock. It's also the only threat that can ever really be hardcast. Deathtouch is also quite good, and if they do end up being able to deal with him you still have the tokens for finishing off the opponent or chump block to buy time to regroup. I dislike that you are playing daze with a Bayou, that feels incorrect.

[PirateKing]

Grave Titan also fills the role of non-Legendary creature. Seems like lots of random Karakas running around these days, and so game 1 having a target for Entomb is nice. Really the only other option is Inkwell Leviathan, and that's the more narrower option in my opinion, hence MD Titan and SB Inkwell.

[David L Byer]

Hey guys,
How do you feel about playing 1 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur as a 4th Griselbrand to play around Extirpate effects?

[chewemy]

Hi guys,

I'm putting back together Reanimator for a tournament, what's the consensus on the side ?

Decay or show and tell + bounce spell ?

Thx :)

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Decay all the way. SnT is clumsy.

[Cpt-Qc]

Decay all the way. SnT is clumsy.

I kinda disagree. SnT is slower and requires a creature in hand, but you never want to put a creature in the yard unless you are sure to get it back anyway.

It just forces you to play safer, smarter. When I didn't have SnT in my 75, I used to pitch creatures way too fast, and sometimes they got taken care of before I could reanimate.
Now not only am I more careful, It bypasses all main deck hate (like Deathrite, Ooze or Abrupt Decay on Animate Dead).

I couldn't say if decay is stronger G2-3 but for game 1 SnT is way better.

[Fox]

SnT quite importantly keeps you on color (UB core) allowing you to reach a wasteland-immune 2mana base, pitches to force, and all but requires opponents to aim a counterspell at it (which basically qualifies it as a counterspell vs a non-proactive blue deck). Abrupt Decay, while a strong card upon resolution, has glaring weaknesses before you even cast it both on the mana-base side of things and inability to advance your ability to win. Decay is the kind of card you want out of your hand the moment you draw it; if it's not helping you win then and there, its being drawn is the main reason you're losing. Decay makes a very strong case for maximizing post-board hand correction effects and flip-jace in the deck, turning the preferred casting zone of this sideboard card to 'from the graveyard,' a post-board strategy that has foreseeable issues.

[Cpt-Qc]

SnT quite importantly keeps you on color (UB core) allowing you to reach a wasteland-immune 2mana base, pitches to force, and all but requires opponents to aim a counterspell at it (which basically qualifies it as a counterspell vs a non-proactive blue deck). Abrupt Decay, while a strong card upon resolution, has glaring weaknesses before you even cast it both on the mana-base side of things and inability to advance your ability to win. Decay is the kind of card you want out of your hand the moment you draw it; if it's not helping you win then and there, its being drawn is the main reason you're losing. Decay makes a very strong case for maximizing post-board hand correction effects and flip-jace in the deck, turning the preferred casting zone of this sideboard card to 'from the graveyard,' a post-board strategy that has foreseeable issues.

As he said, I can comfortably fetch 2-3 basics and win without being scared of wasteland in game 1 (I run 3). UBG requires 2 basics AT MOST, sometimes none.
When I get wastelanded, it's usually because I want to prevent my opponent from a land drop (aka you have the board advantage or need more time to setup).

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Sure, I understand why song people like it, but SnT has been clunky for me in testing. It can be dead if no creature in hand, you don't get to pick what you drop in, I just think it's worse.

[Fox]

Sure, I understand why song people like it, but SnT has been clunky for me in testing. It can be dead if no creature in hand, you don't get to pick what you drop in, I just think it's worse.
Just remember, you don't actually need to be able to put anything into play with SnT, and it doesn't change the fact that (without info on your hand) the opponent still needs to counter it, if they can.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

What? Do you know how terrible that play is if they just let it happen or don't actually have a counter? Seems terrible. You must explain further.

[Fox]

What? Do you know how terrible that play is if they just let it happen or don't actually have a counter? Seems terrible. You must explain further.
Most blue decks that let SnT resolve have basically admitted they have already lost the game (unless they're running grisel, emrakul, omniscience, or other proactive threat). You can't always play around everything, and sometimes the correct call is to cast Show and Tell with it's hidden text [opponent must discard countermagic] to clear the way for a reanimation effect. There's a trap when people think about magic as a game about value and 1-for-1s, you can forget that some things just kill you, in this case bluffing to aid in the cheating in of a griselbrand.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Or that they are holding removal, not countermagic. I see where you are coming from to a point, but overall I feel like Abrupt Decay does a better job of dealing with hate cards and is more relevant than fighting counters with bluffs. I mean, I have counters to fight counters, I'd rather have absolute answers as well, not just more of the same strategy that does a lot less comparatively.

[Mezriss]

Hello, fellow reanimator players.

While I plan to build a 4c version eventually, at the moment I have to start with only 3x US for my duals landbase. That's why I'd really like to get an advices on building UB version.

What could be used a replacement for Abrupt Decays to battle miracles? Maybe Wipe Away?
Or would it be a good idea to keep Abrupt Decays and add 2 shocks into the side for a green splash?
And what would be a better temporal replacement for a fourth Underground Sea? Watery Grave or Darkslick Shores? Shores make Daze somewhat worse, but help to preserve life total.

[PirateKing]

In lieu of green, a UB build is going to be more reliant on discard and bounce coming out of the board, and probably lean more on countermagic throughout the entire match. If you look at historic builds, they had something like 2 Thoughseize and 3 Daze main, then 3 Spell Peirce, 2 Duress and 2 Echoing Truth in the side. Then probably some copies of Show and Tell with a Boseiju for good measure.

Limited to just UB, I'd recommend trying to go for a more explosive build, keep Watery Grave for Daze, play Lotus Petal and try and come in under whatever hate they can muster. 4c Reanimator is the slower and safer build, but if you can't be slow and safe, might as well be fast. Super fast.

[jattra]

What could be used a replacement for Abrupt Decays to battle miracles? Maybe Wipe Away?
Or would it be a good idea to keep Abrupt Decays and add 2 shocks into the side for a green splash?
And what would be a better temporal replacement for a fourth Underground Sea? Watery Grave or Darkslick Shores? Shores make Daze somewhat worse, but help to preserve life total.

I think there is no real replacement for Decay.
I personally play UBg at my local store with no duals, three WGraves, one Breeding Pool and three LPetals. Not good enough for for big tournaments for sure. The life loss is significant and I had to cut one Reanimate for Animate Dead because Reanimate is often dead with shocklands.
Earlier, I tried the clean UB build with Echoing Truths but I quickly realized that Decays are really worth of another shockland.

As a side note, Dimir Charm is good against Miracles when they top their top :) Also kills Containment Priest, counters Terminus and helps in other matchups playing Deathrite Shaman.

[DNSolver]

Having 3 Seas is great. You can probably get away with a Shockland. Make no other adjustments until you really notice a real issue.

I personally play all-in Griselbrand and I've been playing an Overgrown Tomb since forever. My friend played UB Reanimator and when he splashed green he was trying an Overgrown Tomb.

[Fox]

While I plan to build a 4c version eventually, at the moment I have to start with only 3x US for my duals landbase. That's why I'd really like to get an advices on building UB version.
And what would be a better temporal replacement for a fourth Underground Sea? Watery Grave or Darkslick Shores? Shores make Daze somewhat worse, but help to preserve life total.
If you're on UB reanimator, you really don't need anything more than 3 Seas. You will however need Misty (preferably, considering you're building into 4c) as your secondary fetchland. Knowing sideboard (i.e. if you will run :u::u: spells) will influence if you use 3 basics vs another fetchland.

[sunlith42]

3 underground seas is more than enough, I run 3 color and only 2 underground seas so I can run more basics. I have found shocklands to be really bad in reanimator because you want to be able to use daze freely and have two lands and as much life as possible for a turn 2 reanimate. I would stick to UB if you cant get at least one green dual land. Running some extra counter magic and echoing truth/wipe away should be fine.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

When I play 4c Reanimator, I play 4 Delta and 4x catacombs, for the simple fact that black is so much more important than blue it's not even funny.

[Deckerator]

I found a video, BBD playing Eldrazi against Reanimator.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFCwicjxCuw

The Reanimator list is quite interesting because it is playing the white splash instead of green.
Does anyone have some experiences with a white splash including Monastery Mentor, Swords to Plowshares from the board?

[Nuke is Good]

I found a video, BBD playing Eldrazi against Reanimator.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFCwicjxCuw

The Reanimator list is quite interesting because it is playing the white splash instead of green.
Does anyone have some experiences with a white splash including Monastery Mentor, Swords to Plowshares from the board?

I used white for Loyal Retainers, Mentor, Meddling Mage,and Serenity in the past but went back to green.

Serenity ended up not being as good as abrupt decay. It's nice that it takes out multiple hate pieces out at once. Mentor was nice since I play a Petal list which would allow me to go wide and made a later game lotus petal a not so dead draw. I ended up switching back to Decays and adding in a Teferi's Realm. Swords to Plowshares though, not sure how I feel about it due to Chalice running around now.

[jattra]

Hello again,
did anybody test the plain B Reanimator? I played a few games online and it was super explosive. My list is

17 Swamp
4 Animate Dead
4 Dark Ritual
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Entomb
4 Exhume
1 Grave Titan
3 Griselbrand
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 Lotus Petal
1 Pack Rat
4 Putrid Imp
4 Reanimate
4 Smallpox
1 Tidespout Tyrant
4 Unmask
Sideboard:

1 Archetype of Endurance
1 Ashen Rider
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Disfigure
1 Engineered Plague
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Perish
2 Pithing Needle
3 Ratchet Bomb
1 Stormtide Leviathan


T1 Unmask, Swamp, Petal, Imp/Entomb, Reanimate is insane and it requires only 5 cards in your opening hand! I am kidding here.
But seriously, Smallpox is great, Unmask is great, there are many different sequences that leads you to a T2 bomb. Any experience to share?

[AnvilOfCrom]

I recently 3-2ed a League with Mono B Reanimator. Its a nice list because of its explosiveness and its rogue factor but going forward i will play UBr Reanimator due to its resilience (force, pierce...) and card selection (ponder, brainstorm...).

[jattra]

That is great. Any differences from my list?

[Arsenal]

If on straight UB, I'd consider running Wipe Away in the sb to deal with problematic permanents. Wipe Away has added benefit of being able to bounce a Karakas at end step!

[paraszczak]

Hello again,
did anybody test the plain B Reanimator? I played a few games online (...) Any experience to share?

I am old school player and I still remember the good old days when in the Extended played several versions of Reanimator. Personally, I most liked the mono-black version with Entomb and Vampiric Tutor. You know Akroma, Angel of Wrath, Phantom Nishoba, Verdant Force and of course Visara the Dreadful in mainboard, and in sideboard such gems as Woodripper. Then I stopped playing because I finished school and it was time to find a job. About five years ago I decided to start playing Legacy format and immediately my choice fell on Reanimator. Initially, I could not afford UB version, so I began to arrange mono-black version with the intention to purchase the remaining cards to "complete" Reanimator. Since that time I play almost exclusively mono-black version, which I constantly test and improve. To be honest, I prefer this version than the UB (which in the end I managed to complete) mainly because many solutions, I came myself and it's a deck with which I am most familiar.

So the answer to your question... yes I have "little" experience with this version and will be happy to share my knowledge. Here's my decklist:

Mainboard:
4 Griselbrand
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Archetype of Endurance
1 Resolute Archangel

4 Entomb
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
3 Animate Dead

4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress

4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Gemstone Caverns
9 Swamp

Sideboard:
4 Creatures
4 Pithing Needle
4 Ratchet Bomb
3 Massacre


Creature list is actually fairly standard, but there are some aspects that I must discuss. Four copies of His Majesty Griselbrand is an absolute must. He is our most powerful weapon, our main engine and simply one of the best creature in Magic. In most cases, it will be our first reanimation target, and we do not always have the opportunity to play Entomb, so it is better we have it in our hands. We never cut away any Griselbrand for Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur. This is a mistake and in my opinion a really big one, because Jin is weaker and slower. Both Iona and Elesh are creatures prepared for aggro and combo matchups, this is obvious. We can't defend our creatures using counterspells so we need one that is hexproof. Archetype of Endurance is improvement over the Inkwell Leviathan and his ability to bestow our creatures hexproof isn't without significance. In the main I have one more slot for bombs. For five months I test Resolute Archangel and I'm as far very satisfied with the possibilities she gives me.

Reanimation suit is rather obvious. Four copies of Entomb don't require a comment. I concluded that the optimum number of reanimation spells is something between 10-12, except that Reanimation and Exhume should be fullsets.

Thoughtseize, Cabal Therapy and Duress are our defence suit. We only choose the best ones. Additional benefit of playing Seize and Therapy is the possibility of targeting yourself. It's worth noting that to effectively play Therapy, the first step should be to learn a few tricks. Here are two articles describling this topic: http://www.channelfireball.com/home/legacy-weapon-therapy-session/ and http://www.starcitygames.com/article/30815_Single-Card-Primer-Cabal-Therapy.html. I recommend especially the one written by Caleb.

Rest cards are our speed suit. For lack of consistency we need to be fast, fast as hell. Four copies of Dark Ritual and Petals in general should be enought but I find that by adding 2 copies of Mox we increase our chance to first-turn combo out. I love this configuration and I will always recommend it. Rain of Filth is something that I test for some time now and so far I don't have opinion on it. We will see.

Mine mana base is quite unique. Four copies of Gemstone Cavern let us steal back the play when we're not actually on the play by having a land on turn zero. When on the play, casting Entomb in our opponent first upkeep step leaves him with possibility of respond only via Force of Will.

*

In case of sideboard, the thing we always have to keep in mind is to not oversideboard and to keep it simple. We cannot allow to not be able to play our plan by replacement of too many cards. Needle is our response to many different things, Deathrite Shaman being on top. Ratchet Bomb is our only threat against permanent based hate and lately also for Chalice. Massacre is preety obvious. Four flex-slots are for differnet creatures that I choose depending on the meta. Usually, in my case, I select Sphinx of the Final Word (for Miracles and heavy control meta), Grave Titan (for BUG), Silumgar, the Drifting Death (against D'n'T and token heavy decks) and Sire of Insanity (as a last-chance creature).

*

A few thoughts on the general approach to the mono black Reanimator, represented by the most players, that I think are wrong. Due to the lack of consistency, we cannot afford that in our deck were any dead card, cards that aren't the best of its kind and card that don't fit into our gameplan.

Two biggest mistakes at the stage of construction of mono black Reanimator are Putrid Imp and Unmask. Players overestimate Imp, while in the meantime he is a dead card for most of the time. We are playing him only when we have one of the large creatures on hand and doesn't have Entomb. Same thing you can do with Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapy with the added benefit that's hitting opponent with them. On the battlefield his is I think the weakest creature in Legacy (better only than 1/1 tokens). Almost the same with Unmask. I understand the benefit of this that we can play this card "for free", but in return we lose another card, probaly crucial for us. We cannot afford it. The only good thing is that we could check to see whether a path is clear. But we can do same thing with Gitaxian Probe and virtualy doesn't lose a card.

Another issue is the tendency to copy all of creatures from UB Reanimator that don't fit into our build. And I talk specifically about Tidespout Tyrant. Becouse we don't have the option to extend a hand size using a Brainstorm or Ponder, we can't effectively use the capabilities of this creature.

Occasionally I also see that people tend to add Smallpox to their lists, which I completly do not understand. Personally, I think it's a stupid idea... Sorry but I am.

*

Finally I would like to present to you a table with the results of my matches. I keep record of my matches for two years now. Draw conclusions yourself.
Legend: rw/rp - round won/round lost /// mw/mp - match won/match lost /// mecz - match /// proporcja - win rate
http://i.imgur.com/cOS5BHN.jpg

[jattra]

So the answer to your question... yes I have "little" experience with this version and will be happy to share my knowledge.


Oh hell, thank you so much paraszczak. That is a real treasure.

Most of your points make perfect sense to me. I definitely want to try Sphinx. Chrome Mox also looks solid.
On the other hand, smallpox was just great in my testing. It is maindeck kill for shamans and strip mine at the same time. Time will tell. I will replace imps with therapies etc. But still want to try Unmask.

Thanks again for sharing your knowledge.

[jattra]

Hello again,
I have played 4:0 yesterday in my LGS event (approx. 20 players) with the monoblack build:

Main deck (60):
17 Swamp
4 Animate Dead
1 Ashen Rider
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Entomb
4 Exhume
1 Grave Titan
4 Griselbrand
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Lotus Petal
2 Putrid Imp
4 Reanimate
1 Smallpox
3 Thoughtseize
2 Unmask

Sideboard (14):
1 Archetype of Endurance
1 Disfigure
1 Dread of Night
1 Extirpate
1 Massacre
1 Pack Rat
3 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Stormtide Leviathan
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Tombstalker

A few notes:
It was insane evening, the storm was rumbling outside and the deck was super explosive.
I often reanimated one or two bombs T1.
T1 Unmask Ritual Bin Reanimate happened.
T1 Bin, T2 Ritual Reanimate with Animate Dead in hand - good luck disrupting that.
T1 Reanimate countered. T2 Extraction on FoW and reanimate happened.
T1 Therapy and Imp, T2 Bin Griselbrand, sac Imp to flashback Therapy and Reanimate happened.
T2 Smallpox destroyed a blue land against miracles and the oponent discards Mentor, I discard Griselbrand. T3 animate both and get some tokens.
T4 Hardcasted Griselbrand using two rituals. I gave a smile to those Shamans trying to keep my GY in check. T7 Hardcasted Ashen Rider using 6 lands and two Petals. I was a bit flooded that game. Say bye to that Batterskull.

17 lands is a lot.
I usually wanted only Needle, Disfigure, Extraction/Extirpate from my sideboard. Sometimes swapping some creatures. Also played Pack Rat against miracles and have it in hand but it was not needed at all.
The build is far from perfect. I used only cards I had. The key point is that Unmask is tremendous, Imp is good (two are probably fine), Smallpox is also good but need more testing.

Cheers.

[DNSolver]

For you guys running mono-black, I really recommend running red with a couple fetchlands and Badlands, to take full advantage of Faithless Looting. It is very powerful in these decks with a couple more creatures than UB and is desperately needed to smooth out draws. Here's a build I would recommend:

Creatures:
4 Griselbrand
1 Iona
1 Tidespout Tyrant
4 other creatures - I prefer Jin-Gitaxias or Sire of Insanity, maybe a singleton Grave Titan or Archetype of Endurance

Spells:
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
4 Animate Dead
4 Entomb
4 Faithless Looting
4 Unmask
4 Thoughtseize

Mana:
2 Badlands
2 Swamp
1 Bayou / Badlands
8 black fetch
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual

Sideboard:
4 Burning Wish (comes in except against fast decks with little to no hate, in which case you don't sideboard)
1 Reverent Silence (if running the Bayou/Overgrown Tomb main)
1 Meltdown
1 Empty the Warrens (surprisingly useful)
1 Stronghold Gambit (or Show and Tell if you have a blue land lying around)
1 Pyroclasm
1 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Wretched Banquet (copyright me)
1 Buried Alive
1 Cabal Therapy
1 creature slot - Elesh Norn or something

Red also adds the powerful Burning Wish package so that you always have a chance against any hate. Running a green land allows you to deal with Leyline very easily.

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/391417#online
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-reanimator-26292#online

2nd list has a more typical sideboard plan that I'm not a fan of, but you guys can try.

[paraszczak]

For you guys running RED-black, I really recommend running BLUE with a couple fetchlands and Underground Seas, to take full advantage of Brainstorm, Ponder and Force of Will...

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to be rude but the main reason why someone chooses to play mono-black Reanimator is his budget. If you want to make this a better build and have the money for this purpose, you should rather invest them in blue. If your goal is to slow collecting cards to complete UB Reanimator, buying a red card is rather a stopgap.

[Karhumies]

For you guys running mono-black, I really recommend running red with a couple fetchlands and Badlands, to take full advantage of Faithless Looting.

Faithless Looting is a Careful Study with a 3 mana flashback. In Legacy, the 3 mana flashback is typically less important than pitching to Force of Will. Nevertheless, Careful Study, Hapless Researcher and Ideas Unbound frequently don't even make the cut into Bu color lists these days. Brainstorm & company are just that much better.

In my eyes, the monoblack Reanimator lists look very similar to Tin Fins. Both intend to combo quickly with fast mana.

When discussing red cards, some niche choices include Simian Spirit Guide, Blood Moon, Overmaster, Stronghold Gambit and Sneak Attack. None of those other than ape mana are really worth the splash, though, when we think about the explosive strategy.

[BigV54]

Made Top 8 at a 28 player SCG IQ yesterday with this list. 5 rounds of swiss cut to top 8.

Creatures
3x Griselbrand
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Tidespout Tyrant
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Archetype of Endurance

Spells
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Careful Study
4x Entomb
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
4x Daze
3x Ponder
3x Thoughtseize
1x Animate Dead

Artifacts
3x Lotus Petal

Lands
4x Polluted Delta
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Underground Sea
1x Bayou
1x Tropical Island
2x Swamp
1x Island


Sideboard
3x Show and Tell
2x Pithing Needle
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Disfigure
1x Golgari Charm
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Massacre
1x Coffin Purge
1x Inkwell Leviathan
1x Keranos, God of Storms

Round 1 I had the bye, got to walk around the room and see what everybody was on. To note we had 2 D&T, 2 Nic Fit, 4 or 5 total delver decks of various colors, and to everybody's surprise, not a single miracles deck represented. The head judge was overjoyed that the rounds barely went over time.

Round 2 I played against ANT. Game 1 he mulled to six, and I was able to disrupt with a turn one thoughtseize and a turn 3 Griselbrand drawing into a daze for his first ritual sealed it. Game 2 we both mull to six. I keep a hand that has the turn one reanimate with 1 entomb, and he duresses it out. I topdeck another one like the lucksack I am and get Iona and name black. He chain of vapors it and can't kill me before I draw into the careful study to run her back out. 2-0 thanks to the bye.

Round 3 I get paired against my buddy who is on an eldrazi-post-MUD kinda weird deck he's been doing well with. Game 1 I get the turn 2 Griselbrand and kill him before he ramps enough to stop it after we both mulled to 6. Game 2 he goes to 6 and I keep a hand on 7 of 2 lands, force, careful study, reanimate, griselbrand, lotus petal. He ancient tombs into chalice 1, which I have to force. He gets Newlamog out turn 4 before I draw a way to bin a fatty. Game 3 I'm on the play and snap keep a 7 that can turn 1. He keeps on 7 as well and he says to me "Get it turn one or I win." Well after I turn 1 Griselbrand he shows me ancient tomb, relic, tormod's crypt and chalice. I love lotus petal. 3-0 with a chance to double draw in.

Round 4 my opponent is on esper delver. He decides he can't chance the draw so we play. I mull to 6 and he has a turn 1 delver blind flipped and has all the relevant counters. Game 2 I keep a slightly sketchy 7 that doesn't pan out when he has force and daze for my turn 2 attempt and then slams true-name and equips a SoFI. 3-1 and hoping to draw in.

Round 5 me and my opponent math it out and see that we can safely draw in. I make the power play of buying a Starbuck's Frappucino and in response I am more ready for top 8.

Top 8 I get paired against my buddy on his Eldrazi Post... Mud.. Stacks... thing. Game 1 he keeps on 7 and I mull to 5 on the play. I thoughtseize him and take TKS and petal reanimate it taking his 3 ball. He turn 2 plays his other TKS which I daze, but I can't kill him before he drops Karn and rips me apart. Game 2 I get the turn 1 after we both keep 7. Total game time, 45 seconds. Game 3 he snap keeps and I mull a 7 of 2 lands, Griselbrand, careful study, double reanimate and ponder. The hand was great if he doesn't chalice for 1 but if he does I lose on the spot. My 6 is the exact same thing, great if he doesn't chalice on one. I keep a 5 that ALSO dies to chalice one, but I don't possess the man parts to go to 4 in top 8. He opens with cloudpost tapped and I cry a little. I careful study and bin Tidespout and when he turn 2 drops Trinisphere I know it's over. TKS finishes me.

Overall I had a blast with the deck, it felt great and I'm enjoying my particular build. Archetype is an absolute house and I regret waiting until now to try him. I will be playing this deck at GP Columbus and am looking for anyone's input on things I can do differently with this list to improve it. I need to practice more against D&T and Miracles, but I am fairly comfortable with most other matchups in the meta. Thank you in advance if there's anybody that can help me in tuning this for GP or if you just have general advice as this will be my first ever GP.

[jattra]

One question came to my mind.
Could Stifle be a good card in UB reanimator?
It is close to what needle does but it also can cancel triggers and be pitched to FoW.

Counters relic/crypt/spellbomb activation.
Cancels Shaman activation while having reanimate on the stack. Also can forbid an access to the green mana by hitting a fetchland at the right moment.
Counters miracle trigger.
Counters Snapcaster trigger.

[BigV54]

That is a very interesting thought, my main issue up front would be that it cost mana and this deck runs very mana light. The turn you go off you will usually tap out, hence the 8 free counters widely played. That being said stifle does stop a lot of the hate. Cage is the only exception that comes to mind.

[Rocco111]

Albeit an interesting idea, I can imagine more scenarii in which Stifle just seats there, in you hand, doing nothing than in which you would be happy to have it.
FoW, Daze and even Misdirection to a certain extent would be more useful.

[jattra]

Albeit an interesting idea, I can imagine more scenarii in which Stifle just seats there, in you hand, doing nothing than in which you would be happy to have it.
FoW, Daze and even Misdirection to a certain extent would be more useful.

Not trying to replace counterspells. I am looking at it as a blue instant needle for our deck.


my main issue up front would be that it cost mana and this deck runs very mana light.
Yes, that is a problem.

[Fox]

Stifle has a number of implications on deck construction; by itself the card is a trap. As a fun-of I guess it's fine, but I think you'd rather have Repeal, Divert, Chain of Vapor, Misdirection (as suggested by @Rocco111), Show and Tell, or a gotcha card like Quicken or Mindbreak Trap.

If you're talking about a Stifle playset, you're losing a few reanimation targets and cantrips decreasing the deck's ability to re-fire the combo after Grisel reanimation. At this point you're going to want to begin running Wastelands, as you're becoming more of a control-reanimator...except that you're still combo, which means you still can't really afford to be running ways to directly deal with DRS. Keep going down this path and you'll end up at the happy intersection of reanimator & dreadnought. This is where you step back and decide whether or not you value the too-diverse-to-hate hybrid weirdness or you buy Show and Tells and say "I'm just not beating a Containment Priest ever" (and by ever I mean until you draw whatever deals with 2 toughness sideboard card, in addition to SnT and fattie). The moral of the story though is that decks which run Stifle, without any way to use it to advance their ability to win (i.e. don't have their own triggers to stifle), generally underperform - especially if that deck is combo. Look for spells that change the combo (SnT) or protect the original combo, especially if they can also put reanimation targets into opponent's yard (Izzet Charm while not in your colors is a decent example).

[Deckerator]

I play Reanimator without discard. Who has experiences with discard in this deck? I think about adding 2-3 TS to my deck but i dont feel convinced about that. If i wanna play discard it should be a playset because i wanna draw it as early as possible. The best would be in my opening seven but it is a bad late game.

[PirateKing]

Could Stifle be a good card in UB reanimator?

My issue with that strategy is the non-permanent part. Having my opponent T1 DRS and pass and I T1 Needle and pass, I'm now free to devote the whole of my resources to the game plan. Needle has it's own weakness in a variety of played answers, but this isn't very much less true of Stifle either. Needle is a good "fire and forget" weapon to combat some specific threats, without the need to hold back mana and retard your play just to have a live Stifle.

[PirateKing]

I play Reanimator without discard. Who has experiences with discard in this deck? I think about adding 2-3 TS to my deck but i dont feel convinced about that. If i wanna play discard it should be a playset because i wanna draw it as early as possible. The best would be in my opening seven but it is a bad late game.

I play with 2-3 Thoughtseize in my deck and usually 2 Duress out of the side. For the most part my experience has been to use them as proactive counterspells. They rarely get played the combo turn itself, usually the turn or two before. Depending on how explosive your build attempts to be, you're not going to need them in every opening hand. Unlike ANT & TES and other hardcore combo decks, our combo is pretty lean, allowing us for lots of redundancy. I've won just any many games jamming multiple Reanimates into counterspells until one sticks as I have playing with counter backup myself. A handful of discard just feeds that redundancy further.

A good test would always to be slide a piece of scrap paper into your sleeves with whatever cards you're thinking about replacing with a Thoughtseize. As long as it isn't crazy obtrusive, it won't hinder your play in a tournament setting. Then every time you draw that card, ask yourself if you'd rather have a Thoughtseize in this situation. See where that leads you and you should get where you want to be.

[jattra]

My issue with that strategy is the non-permanent part. Having my opponent T1 DRS and pass and I T1 Needle and pass, I'm now free to devote the whole of my resources to the game plan. Needle has it's own weakness in a variety of played answers, but this isn't very much less true of Stifle either. Needle is a good "fire and forget" weapon to combat some specific threats, without the need to hold back mana and retard your play just to have a live Stifle.

This is definitely valid concern. It is connected with the amount of mana we have available on our typical reanimate turn - 1 or 2, rarely 3.
I am just excited about the surprise aspect of stifle. If you needle their shaman, they just give up on it and search for another answer. If you keep stifle in your hand, they might feel safe, fetch for tropical island, tap land and shaman and whiff.

I need to get some time to test it. I just wanted to know if anybody tried that before.

[idavis]

Has anyone been testing against Eldrazi? I've been running 4C and it turns into a coin flip for me. It gets worse if they splash white. 4x Leyline, plus Trinisphere/Amethyst, plus Chalice of the void is hard to get past. Then, while you are trying to build, Thought-knot Seer rips your hand apart. I'm getting ready for GP Columbus and I'm really not digging this match being such a huge part of the meta.

[delfam]

I was thinking of getting into Legacy and wanted to start with a list like this

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/426190#online

Is this a good place to start with the archetype just getting into legacy?

I love the versatility of the wish package, the only thing is Deathrite Shaman, Thalia, and Eldrazi decks(Chalice, Thorn). Deathrite decks, D&T, and Eldrazi are everywhere which is why I'm leary on this deck.

[DNSolver]

I'm assuming you're actually talking about my list with the wish sideboard:

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/426193#online

It's a great list. I would actually advocate for the 4th Unmask over the Duress, Unmasks are unusally expensive online and I have only just managed to obtain my 4th copy. This list is fast enough to beat Deathrite, Thalia, and thorn effects on the play and most of the time on the draw.

[delfam]

I'm assuming you're actually talking about my list with the wish sideboard:

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/426193#online

It's a great list. I would actually advocate for the 4th Unmask over the Duress, Unmasks are unusally expensive online and I have only just managed to obtain my 4th copy. This list is fast enough to beat Deathrite, Thalia, and thorn effects on the play and most of the time on the draw.
thanks for replying, I had a few questions if you wouldn't mind.

- Stronghold Gambit: When do you wish for this? I assume vs decks that don't run creatures, but those decks are usually combo and can beat you T1 or T2. Do you just use it after a Thoughtseize?
- Buried Alive: Is this for Deathrite Shaman decks so they can't remove all the creatures?
- You SB in Archetype of Endurance for decks with Swords?
- Children of Korlis: I assume this is so you can draw more with Griselbrand? Do you ever reanimate this or is it just a 1-of that if you draw is good?
- Do you side out Tendrils when you SB in the burning wishes?
- Why no Sire of Insanity?

[DNSolver]

- Stronghold Gambit: When do you wish for this? I assume vs decks that don't run creatures, but those decks are usually combo and can beat you T1 or T2. Do you just use it after a Thoughtseize?

It's a good card to Wish for if you have Griselbrand in hand and opponent is topdecking. Usually only good against lands, Miracles, and occaisionally Delver decks.


- Buried Alive: Is this for Deathrite Shaman decks so they can't remove all the creatures?

Another "good-to-have" card in the board, the best Entomb-like option available as a sorcery.


- You SB in Archetype of Endurance for decks with Swords?

Karakas, actually. Swords to Plowshares rarely does anything.


- Children of Korlis: I assume this is so you can draw more with Griselbrand? Do you ever reanimate this or is it just a 1-of that if you draw is good?

In TinFins style, you use it to Tendrils them out game 1. There's enough fast mana that if you draw 14 you should be able to Entomb - Reanimate this most of the time and repeat as necessary until you can Tendrils them.


- Do you side out Tendrils when you SB in the burning wishes?

Sometimes. The typical plan is to take out 1 of every sorcery you want to wish for. -1 Reanimate, -1 Exhume, -1 Thoughtseize, -1 Tendrils for +4 Wish. In matchups where you really want Reverent Silence, you bring in the extra 2 for 1 Unmask and 1 Jin-Gitaxias. In matchups where you want Archetype of Endurance, you trim a Chrome Mox as the last possible card you could board out, or a Jin-Gitaxias (going down to 2).


- Why no Sire of Insanity?

I have lost games where I've made Sire of Insanity, usually due to being on the draw and opponent has Top, or when opponent finds Maze of Ith, Baleful Strix, Tarmogoyf (usually huge once hands are pitched), etc. It's just so much worse than Jin-Gitaxias in this deck because the draw 7 is at its best in this deck.

[delfam]

Thanks, that helps a lot.

- You don't like Massacre? Seems like a good Wish target that we can play for free vs DnT, Maverick, etc.
- Also is Ashen Rider not needed? Seems good vs Pithing Needle(on Griselbrand), Rest in Peace, or Planeswalkers. I guess Revert Silence and Meltdown help there

[ChrisDissent]

Hi everyone,

I'm new to Legacy and I'm building a budget version of Reanimator I plan to play at some local tournaments until I can afford the big cards to join the eldrazi crowd (please don't beat me :tongue: ).
For these budget considerations, do you think it's a sacrilege (or a suicide) switching the Useas for some Watery Grave, and FOWs for Misdirections (not in the same numbers, probably supplied by some discard spells) ?

For information, my actual brewing look like this :

- 4 Watery Grave
- 1 Overgrown Tomb
- 4 Polluted Delta
- 2 Verdant Catacombs
- 1 Bloodstained Mire
- 1 Darkslick Shores
- 1 Swamp
- 1 Island
- 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
- 1 Iona, Ehield of Emeria
- 1 Griselbrand
- 1 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
- 1 Ashen Rider
- 1 Inkwell Leviathan
- 1 Empyrial Archangel
- 4 Lotus Petal
- 2 Animate Dead
- 4 Daze
- 2 Misdirection
- 4 Brainstorm
- 4 Entomb
- 4 Reanimate
- 4 Exhume
- 4 Careful Study
- 4 Dark ritual
- 1 Cabal Therapy
- 1 Duress

SB
- 4 Chancellor of the Annex
- 2 Pithing Needle
- 3 Ratchet Bomb
- 2 Spell Pierce
- 1 Mindbreak Trap
- 3 Nature's Claim


Don't have extra Griselbrand :frown:.

Thanks in advance for your help !

[Fox]

With so many shock lands you will need to probably switch to 4x Animate Dead and 2x Reanimate. The maindeck creature spread is probably a little too diverse (need more Grisel). It may also be more efficient to drop the blue (Daze + shocklands is pretty painful) and move to a more BR approach with Sire of Insanity and Faithless Looting. If you do stay blue with shocks/Daze/4x Reanimate, consider running 3-4 Gin-Gitaxias (in this case running 0-1 Grisel) as your primary target - but know that Dismember will cause you a lot of issues.

[ChrisDissent]

Thx for the answer, Fox.

What I fear with the B/R version is the lack of relevant answers to FOW and protection of the combo. Am I right or is the discard pack (Unmask + TS or Duress) sufficient ?
Cause in this case, the manabase will hurt a lot less (think I'll put 2 Blackcleave Cliffs and 1 or 2 Blood Crypt, basics and fetch for the rest).

As I have only one Griselbrand, I think I'll have to deal with this creature spread (probably add 1 Buried Alive as it let me choose what cards to put in my GY, but I know it sounds like Christmas Magic). I like a lot Sire of Insanity, but I see him dying on a lot of topdecks (Dismember, Tarmogoyf, Swords, etc.). Again, I may be wrong here.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts !

[jattra]

I am playing UB Reanimator with Watery Graves and it is good enough for weekly events. I see no problem there. The real problem is the lack of FoW. FoW is the only reason to play blue in this deck in my opinion. If you do not have FoW, don't try to substitute it, it is not possible. If you have Badlands, you can play BR. If you don't, just play the mono black version. I'm switching to mono black time to time and it plays good. I would say much better than a crippled UB build (no offense). You do not need to be worried about lack of protection if all your cards are quite the same. You just fight through with speed, redundancy and good anti-hate cards from SB. A few days back, I posted my mono black list, which I managed to get 4:0 with on a weekly legacy event (lucky bastard I am).
Good luck.

[ChrisDissent]

Thanks Jattra !
I will probably try the monoB build for playtesting a bit.
Question : how do you deal with Leyline of the Void ?

[PirateKing]

Hardcast Grave Titan
Ratchet Bomb is a good sideboard card also

[jattra]

Thanks Jattra !
I will probably try the monoB build for playtesting a bit.
Question : how do you deal with Leyline of the Void ?

T0 Leyline is very hard to play through for any Reanimator deck. UBg has usually a single Echoing Truth and/or single Golgari Charm in SB, but pulling those on time is kind of winning a jackpot.



PirateKing:
Hardcast Grave Titan
Ratchet Bomb is a good sideboard card also


Those are our options in mono B. You probably realize that it takes five turns to blow the leyline up with the bomb. Hardcasting a monster is also not going to happen early game usually. The strategy here is to use discard to rip relevant cards and a creature from the opponent's hand and reanimate it. This gives you the time to hardcast something ugly (even Ashen Rider happened to me) or to charge your bomb. Good news is that the mono B has much more discard and also much better chance of hardcasting something.
Also remember that they will not always have T0 Leyline and you need to win only two games out of three :)

[ChrisDissent]

Ok thanks guys for the info :wink:

The green splash is really tempting (for Decay and Golgari Charm), but it comes with fetchlands and at least a silver bullet land (Bayou or Overgrown Tomb).
Don't know if it's worth the 3 life loss when you're holding Reanimate in your hand. I'll probably rely on monoB build and prey the Leylines won't happen in games 2 and 3.

Anyway, thanks a lot for your help !

[owerbart]

Thanks Jattra !
I will probably try the monoB build for playtesting a bit.
Question : how do you deal with Leyline of the Void ?

I play 2 Show and Tell main and 2 side.

Post board, you can bring Golgari Charm, Echoing Truth, Teferi's Realm

[delfam]

How do we beat a Glacial Chasm?

[Rocco111]

How do we beat a Glacial Chasm?

Blood Moon / Tidespout Tyrant / Ashen Rider / Angel of Despair / Woodfall Primus / Terrastodon...

[Damaku]

How do we beat a Glacial Chasm?

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=107408&type=card

[owerbart]

How do we beat a Glacial Chasm?

Tidespout Tyrant, which everyone plays a MD copy of, because it can take away troublesome permanents, like chasm, maze or Bridge. Tidespout is a powerhouse against Lands: Can't get "Karakased", can't get P. Fired, and takes care of Maze, Chasm and Marit Lage.

[KobeBryan]

You can't lose to lands with tidesprout on the field.

[Fox]

Tidespout Tyrant is also your answer to cards like Emrakul off of SnT. Also @delfam since you're unfamiliar with this card, it is important to identify the interaction between Tidespout and Animate Dead that can make it quite evasive.

[KobeBryan]

Tidespout Tyrant is also your answer to cards like Emrakul off of SnT. Also @delfam since you're unfamiliar with this card, it is important to identify the interaction between Tidespout and Animate Dead that can make it quite evasive.

You are overselling. Its useful, but not that important.

[AEMarling]

I am playing 2 Unmask, 1 Thoughtseize, and an additional 2 Thoughtseize in the board. I try to get under all the hate I can by being as fast as possible with the deck. Unmask facilitates faster reanimation. Also, after drawing off 7 Griselbrand it's a free way to interact. It's not always better than Thoughtseize, but I've liked it well enough overall, and that was before the Chalice craze. I tend to think the card is better now, and I'm considering adding numbers 3-4 to my 75.

I don't currently splash. In the past I've preferred bounce spells to Abrupt Decay in the board, mostly because you could discard Chain of Vapor to Force of Will. If I play 4 Unmask, that justification may no longer apply. However, the bounce still has upside against Eldrazi's Leyline of the Void.

I am tempted to splash red for Izzet Charm main or white for Serenity in the sideboard. Not certain it's worthwhile to sacrifice the basic lands, and I don't have the duals.

Overall, I believe the deck's strength is in its speed and use of Daze. I try not to slow down the deck too much post board. And I rarely sideboard out more than 2/4 Dazes even on the draw.

[owerbart]

Congratulations to Raymond Cornelly for reaching Top 8 in GP Columbus :)

[kinda]

Played a budget version to a 1-2 finish at my local but it felt good. I ordered a 4th entomb and 2 more lotus petals. I also want abrupt decay in the sb but otherwise not sure what to change.

4 x gemstone mine
4 x city of brass
4 x mana confluence
2 x undiscovered paradise
1 x forbidden orchard
4 x dark ritual
2 x lotus petal

4 x reanimate
4 x exhume
3 x show and tell
3 x entomb
4 x faithless looting
4 x careful study
1 x children of korlis
1 x tendrils of agony
4 x griselbrand
1 x iona
1 x elesh norn
1 x terrastadon
1 x blazing archon
4 x thoughtseize
3 x cabal therapy

SB
2 x red elemental blast
2 x ingot chewer
2 x boseiju
4 x doomsday
1 x emrakul
1 x cloud of faeries
1 x trickbind
1 x brainstorm
1 x shelldock isle

[paraszczak]

I have a question to the readers of this thread. I can spend some time to write a comprehensive primer on mono black Reanimator. Mainly because I believe the discussion on this version of Reanimator should be kept out elsewhere. The mono black version has its own rules and the manner of its driving is much different. Besides, from time to time in this thread appears a person with his list and questions about mbR. To organize everything, we could send that person to a special thread.

What do you think? Anyone would be interested in a separate thread dedicated to the mbR?

[ChrisDissent]

Anyone would be interested in a separate thread dedicated to the mbR?

I would :smile:

[jattra]

I have a question to the readers of this thread. I can spend some time to write a comprehensive primer on mono black Reanimator. Mainly because I believe the discussion on this version of Reanimator should be kept out elsewhere. The mono black version has its own rules and the manner of its driving is much different. Besides, from time to time in this thread appears a person with his list and questions about mbR. To organize everything, we could send that person to a special thread.

What do you think? Anyone would be interested in a separate thread dedicated to the mbR?

I actually was searching for a specific thread for monoB in past.
It makes sense.

[paraszczak]

Fine! Today I start to write. I need a week to describe deck (history, cards choice, decklists, tactics etc.), about three days for matchup, two days to translate into English (English is not my native language) and 2 days for correction of grammatical mistakes (anyone willing to help?). So I give myself 14-day deadline. I know it's quite a long time, but if I want to do it right, I don't want to rush.

[kinda]

Is the new Emrakul good enough? It can be reanimated!

[Deckerator]

Is the new Emrakul good enough? It can be reanimated!

I thought the same but for what reason do you wanna play him over other targets?
I dont like that he has not hexproof and is vulnerable to Karakas. He can be tried as big beater, every other creature in this deck has an immediate board impact.

[entreri_fans]

Is the new Emrakul good enough? It can be reanimated!

New Emmy no longer has annihilator, still not comparable with the Old Emmy I think :(

[kinda]

I thought the same but for what reason do you wanna play him over other targets?
I dont like that he has not hexproof and is vulnerable to Karakas. He can be tried as big beater, every other creature in this deck has an immediate board impact.

It's the only critter that wins in 2 swings and is pro swords...but unsure if that's s good enough reason. It can also block griselbrand :).

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

It's the only critter that wins in 2 swings and is pro swords...but unsure if that's s good enough reason. It can also block griselbrand :).

Iona is pro swords and Tidespout Tyrant and Griselbrand can deal with opposing griselbrands pretty well... I don't think it is very good in this deck...

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Not to mention Grave Titan is a 2-swing win with better bonuses.

[paraszczak]

What do you think about the new monster from Eldritch Moon: Docent of Perfection / Final Iteration? I think specifically about the slot occupied by Grave Titan.

http://mythicspoiler.com/emn/cards/docentofperfection.jpghttp://mythicspoiler.com/emn/cards/finaliteration.jpg

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I like it but testing will show whether or not it's good enough. I like it in builds with flip jace and hapless researchers.

[Deckerator]

What do you think about the new monster from Eldritch Moon: Docent of Perfection / Final Iteration? I think specifically about the slot occupied by Grave Titan.

http://mythicspoiler.com/emn/cards/docentofperfection.jpghttp://mythicspoiler.com/emn/cards/finaliteration.jpg
I dont like this card over Grave Titan. It doesnt effect the board immediately like Grave titan does. You reanimate Grave Titan a 6/6 deathtouch creature that brings two 2/2 bodys this turn. Next turn it attacks for 10 and produces again two 2/2 bodies without spending a single mana for it.
With this new card you get a 5/4 flying body and need spells to create 1/1 bodies (only instant and sorcery. No Petal). Thus you have to spend mana to reanimate this new creature and then you have to spend mana on the spells to get value out of this creature. I think this isnt the right creature for this deck because you wanna reanimate as soon as possible with as little mana as possible

[PirateKing]

I agree. In a Hapless Researcher build like mine it caught my eye, but it can't compare to Grave Titan. Not having to put any more resources into building an army is a huge upside, you're free to devote your maximum to protecting your dude or getting another creature out or just sitting back and building a godly hand while they scramble to remove it. This seems like an trap to overextend your spells to try and get more creatures, only to get blown out by a Swords or something. You got to assume in a prefect world, if you're not going for Griselbrand, there must be a reason. Why? Karakas, Ensnaring Bridge, Liliana, facing down lethal damage, many reasons out there. All of our non-Griselbrand creatures should exist to address a specific threat. Grave Titan beats on the turn it comes out Karakas, Liliana and multiple Tarmogoyfs. This guy seems like he does all that, but only with a huge grip of other spells.

[paraszczak]

Sure, on paper Grave Titan looksa bit better. Especially if we are talking about the board impact. And although in most arguments, I agree with you, I think that Docent of Perfection is simply "too close" to be playable and needs to be tested. Over the years, often it turned out that the seemingly useless creature was later included in the core Reanimator. And vice versa.

But perhaps speaks through me the hunger for new reanimation targets. This is a typical necromancers disease.

[Damaku]

I like delver 3.0, but I think it needs to be tested. There is potential.
I am still angry that they needet to make shitty yugi o fusion shit... I woud give my left leg to reanimate the fustion angel.

[Claymore]

Slightly off topic...

Aside from Griselbrand, what's the best reanimation target against Miracles? I'm working on a Jund Depths deck with Reanimator sideboard. So far it seems Griselbrand and then Iona are 1/2, but looking for a third target as well - I had Sire of Insanity, but it doesn't seem that great anymore. Something eventually hard castable in a BRG shell. Terrastadon to destroy a few Counterbalances/RIPs? Go all in on reanimating Tidespout Tyrant for his solid abilities against Lands as well?

[Rampart]

Slightly off topic...

Aside from Griselbrand, what's the best reanimation target against Miracles? I'm working on a Jund Depths deck with Reanimator sideboard. So far it seems Griselbrand and then Iona are 1/2, but looking for a third target as well - I had Sire of Insanity, but it doesn't seem that great anymore. Something eventually hard castable in a BRG shell. Terrastadon to destroy a few Counterbalances/RIPs? Go all in on reanimating Tidespout Tyrant for his solid abilities against Lands as well?


Inkwell or Archetype of Endurance would come to mind. oh, Also Keranos is good

[Lormador]

Aetherling used to be played before Containment Priest began to be used.

It's pretty hard to answer outside of that particular card.

[Damaku]

Keranos shits on Containment priests

[paraszczak]

Slightly off topic...

Aside from Griselbrand, what's the best reanimation target against Miracles? I'm working on a Jund Depths deck with Reanimator sideboard. So far it seems Griselbrand and then Iona are 1/2, but looking for a third target as well - I had Sire of Insanity, but it doesn't seem that great anymore. Something eventually hard castable in a BRG shell. Terrastadon to destroy a few Counterbalances/RIPs? Go all in on reanimating Tidespout Tyrant for his solid abilities against Lands as well?

Your first target should be Griselbrand or Iona, Shield of Emeria on white and then, if you really want to, Archetype of Endurance to secure Iona from blue bounce.

[Claymore]

Also protects Marit Lage...I'll put it on the list. Thanks!

Any word on the Mono Black Reanimator primer?

[paraszczak]

I must admit honestly that the works are going a little slower than I assumed it. In my calculations, I forgot to take into account the time that I spend on watching Euro 2016 matches. Especially now when Poland (my country) came out of the group, beat Switzerland in 1/8's and tomorrow will face Portugal in the battle for the semi-finals.

I promise I'll try not to exceed the deadline too much.

[Dutch253]

Maybe a bit of an odd question but here goes. With the prevalence of Karakas, Maze of Ith and Swords to Plowshares I'm going to start running 1 Archetype of Endurance and I'm considering running it main. If I do, do I reanimate Archetype first and best down until I can reanimate Griselbrand? Or reanimate Gris first and dig for an Archetype?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[KobeBryan]

Maybe a bit of an odd question but here goes. With the prevalence of Karakas, Maze of Ith and Swords to Plowshares I'm going to start running 1 Archetype of Endurance and I'm considering running it main. If I do, do I reanimate Archetype first and best down until I can reanimate Griselbrand? Or reanimate Gris first and dig for an Archetype?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

depends on board state.

[Fox]

Chase top 8'd with arch-pig main (he's Stryfo here), and as @KobeBryan stated it will depend on the situation. Probably the most important question is that if Karakas/Maze is already on board, can you survive a Grisel-draw 7 - if yes, that's probably the optimal line.

[ottomanottoman]

Any comments on these RBx Reanimator (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-brx-reanimator#paper) lists running around on mtgo?

I've tried it out for a few games and it feels like turbo reanimator compared to the UBx versions. So far I have enjoyed it and stronghold gambit does an adorable interpretation of a show and tell against certain matchups.

[DNSolver]

Any comments on these RBx Reanimator (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-brx-reanimator#paper) lists running around on mtgo?

I've tried it out for a few games and it feels like turbo reanimator compared to the UBx versions. So far I have enjoyed it and stronghold gambit does an adorable interpretation of a show and tell against certain matchups.

There are matchups where you would rather be playing one or the other. Personally, I have found the Miracles matchup to be better than 50% for the BR version. This is one of the draws to this version. I am starting a Griselbrand clan on MTGO, so hopefully the BR version solidifies into legitimate disgustingness instead of being dismissed as pathetic B.S.

[Rampart]

There are matchups where you would rather be playing one or the other. Personally, I have found the Miracles matchup to be better than 50% for the BR version. This is one of the draws to this version. I am starting a Griselbrand clan on MTGO, so hopefully the BR version solidifies into legitimate disgustingness instead of being dismissed as pathetic B.S.

Sorry for bugging you but do you happen to have an updated sideboard for you Burning Wish plan or are you still running the same thing

Rampart

[DNSolver]

Sorry for bugging you but do you happen to have an updated sideboard for you Burning Wish plan or are you still running the same thing

Rampart

I'm still running the same Burning Wish sideboard. I like having access to Reverent Silence outside of the wishboard when facing Miracles multiple times per league. In paper, there is more Death and Taxes/Maverick in general, so I could see running a Massacre over one of them and perhaps a Pulverize / Echoing Ruin over the other.

I have been experimenting a bit with Abrupt Decay sideboards though. I don't like being cold to Leyline so I would have something like:

4 Abrupt Decay (just about every matchup)
4 Reverent Silence (only vs. Leyline)
4 Stronghold Gambit (Lands, Storm - might not be worth the slot)
3 Faerie Macabre - destroys the Reanimator mirror or semi-mirror

Because I can't see wanting to bring in more than 4 cards at any given time due to diluting the deck plan. I typically cut a Chrome Mox, Unmask, Thoughtseize, and a reanimation spell.

[Rampart]

I'm still running the same Burning Wish sideboard. I like having access to Reverent Silence outside of the wishboard when facing Miracles multiple times per league. In paper, there is more Death and Taxes/Maverick in general, so I could see running a Massacre over one of them and perhaps a Pulverize / Echoing Ruin over the other.

I have been experimenting a bit with Abrupt Decay sideboards though. I don't like being cold to Leyline so I would have something like:

4 Abrupt Decay (just about every matchup)
4 Reverent Silence (only vs. Leyline)
4 Stronghold Gambit (Lands, Storm - might not be worth the slot)
3 Faerie Macabre - destroys the Reanimator mirror or semi-mirror

Because I can't see wanting to bring in more than 4 cards at any given time due to diluting the deck plan. I typically cut a Chrome Mox, Unmask, Thoughtseize, and a reanimation spell.


I was just curious, I couldn't find a super recent placing that wasn't in Tin-Fins's Style so its easier to ask. I have been playing the standard Abrupt/Gambit Sideboard for a while now and I don't think I have ever resolved the Gambit and cheated a monster in, I either just gets counter, resolves but fails or Rots in my hand as I reanimate a monster. I have had a so/so experience with Abrupt Decay as its never great but never really bad. The one thing I can say is I hate loosing to Leyline so I was looking at the burning wish and Reverent Silence seems awesome at answering that.

Regardless, Thank you

Rampart

[Rocco111]

This might be related to the fact that a while back there was an article written in ChannelFireball about the BR version.

In France the deck sees more and more play (known as DindonRea).

Playing it myself, I must say it is a blast to play.

Now, if you are the kind to use and abuse of Brainstorm, clearly the deck is not for you.
However for all other consideration, it is faster than the classic UB version.

Chancellor of the Annex is one of the corner stone of the deck to bypass any potential counters or Surgical Extraction you may have to face (and is an awesome threat to reanimate vs other combo decks).

[DNSolver]

I've moved a bit away from Chancellor recently when experimenting with my TinFins builds.

I really like Wish because when you sideboard out 1 Unmask, 1 Thoughtseize, 1 Reanimate, and 1 Exhume for it, your sideboard cards can still be game-ending threats by finding Reanimate / Exhume. Decay can never Reanimate a Griselbrand for three mana when you need a reanimation spell.

The problem with other sideboard plans is that they involve another color (splash for Show and Tell) or are more mana-intensive (Sneak Attack) or require a ton of sideboard slots (4 LED 4 Wish for Empty in the sideboard, I've tried it a bit).

[PirateKing]

http://mythicspoiler.com/emn/cards/collectivebrutality.jpg

Spoiled card looks like a contender.

Kill their DRS, take their counterspell and pitch a fatty for :1::b:?

[Fox]

Spoiled card looks like a contender.
Kill their DRS, take their counterspell and pitch a fatty for :1::b:?
So the issue with cards like this is when the cost (discard) is payed. DRS would still get priority to eat the discard before dying, same thing with a card like Firestorm. Pretty decent card though.

[DNSolver]

Beyond that, still exposes you to Surgical Extraction when discarding as part of the cost. Looks like a good Burning Wish target to me, though.

[PirateKing]

So the issue with cards like this is when the cost (discard) is payed. DRS would still get priority to eat the discard before dying, same thing with a card like Firestorm. Pretty decent card though.

Doesn't need to be all Magical Christmasland to be quality though. Duress and Darkblast/Disfigure get played in the sideboard often, the question is are these effects worth twice the mana at sorcery speed?
Even as a Duress plus bin a Fatty to do a life drain does double duty, even if they counter the card we still pay the cost, and if they don't we take the counter; all while having an uncounterable discard effect.
Then worst case it's 1-for-1 against DRS and others. It's close to a more on color Izzet Charm than anything else.

[Deckerator]

This might be related to the fact that a while back there was an article written in ChannelFireball about the BR version.

In France the deck sees more and more play (known as DindonRea).

Playing it myself, I must say it is a blast to play.

Now, if you are the kind to use and abuse of Brainstorm, clearly the deck is not for you.
However for all other consideration, it is faster than the classic UB version.

Chancellor of the Annex is one of the corner stone of the deck to bypass any potential counters or Surgical Extraction you may have to face (and is an awesome threat to reanimate vs other combo decks).

Do you dont miss the cards like FoW or Daze to react with the T1 hate or to get the counter protection for the fatty? How is the Chancellor a counter for Surgical? Surgical is quite annoying. Do you play B/R Reanimator online or paper?


Collective Brutality semms interesting enough to test it. :)
I am still disappointed that they made Brisela like that. I want to reanimate her. :cry:
Still hoping for a good new fatty :cool:

[Fox]

Doesn't need to be all Magical Christmasland to be quality though. Duress and Darkblast/Disfigure get played in the sideboard often, the question is are these effects worth twice the mana at sorcery speed?
Even as a Duress plus bin a Fatty to do a life drain does double duty, even if they counter the card we still pay the cost, and if they don't we take the counter; all while having an uncounterable discard effect.
Then worst case it's 1-for-1 against DRS and others. It's close to a more on color Izzet Charm than anything else.
It's a card with a lot of upside, but substantial risk. Sure with Lotus Petal you've got that chance to turn 1 this, and you probably just win by turn 2...but without such a quick start DRS has windows of effectiveness (especially due to sorcery speed), it's hard to cast through a Thalia, and you can very quickly find yourself in a situation of: discard fattie, look at their hand & see a Counterbalance or RiP, and then lose. The card is fine* and it offers a different way to attack the format, but you're also signing up for its inherent weaknesses.
*when I say a card is pretty decent or fine, it's a complement - tone is hard to convey in text.

[DNSolver]

Do you dont miss the cards like FoW or Daze to react with the T1 hate or to get the counter protection for the fatty? How is the Chancellor a counter for Surgical? Surgical is quite annoying. Do you play B/R Reanimator online or paper?


Collective Brutality semms interesting enough to test it. :)
I am still disappointed that they made Brisela like that. I want to reanimate her. :cry:
Still hoping for a good new fatty :cool:

The only "turn 1 hate" that can stop a turn 1 from our deck is something like Grafdigger's Cage or Nihil Spellbomb. Chancellor delays these by at least a turn, giving you time to combo before it hits. Chancellor is also an answer to 95% of hands with hate and/or in them when on the play, because any reasonable hand will combo turn 1 or turn 2 on the play.

[RPS]

I'm currently looking to build another Legacy deck. I have Burn but the B/r/x Reanimator deck has caught my eye because of the MTGO results. Here's my question, is it worth building that version and is it good enough for paper events? I'm kinda new to Legacy but this decks looks like a blast to play. Any help would be appreciated!

[DNSolver]

With any Legacy deck, the best way to learn about a deck is to play it a ton. Proxy up lists and see what you like and don't like. I've been through around 30 versions of BRx Reanimator, testing around 20-30 different cards that are nowhere to be found in my latest version. Try testing the list out with friends; it can be really fun to play.

[paraszczak]

With any Legacy deck, the best way to learn about a deck is to play it a ton. Proxy up lists and see what you like and don't like.
This couldn't be better said.

[mariobross]

I believe that the new card can be very powerful in this deck ...

I tried to put it in this way by using a list that I saw at the Columbus Grand Prix.

This is my idea:

Creatures: 7
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Grave Titan
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Tidespout Tyrant
3 Griselbrand

Instants 16
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Entomb
4 Force of Will

Sorceries 19
2 Collective Brutality
2 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize
4 Careful Study
4 Exhume
4 Reanimate

Mana Source: 18
3 Lotus Petal
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea


Side:
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Massacre / Dread of Night
2/3 Pithing Needle
2 Duress / Thoughtseize
2 Show and Tell
2 Echoing Truth
2 creatures (Ashen Rider / Aetherling / Blazing Archon / Inkuel / Sire)


It could be a card to do before the combo, or the only main card that takes your princpale why this deck is not much played: fast shaman ...


what do you think?

[Xanthos]

I've been playing the black/red version with great success so far. I'll chalk it up to beginners luck. However, this thing is a buzz saw.

[RPS]

I've been playing the black/red version with great success so far. I'll chalk it up to beginners luck. However, this thing is a buzz saw.

Nice! What decks have you played against so far?

[Xanthos]

Nice! What decks have you played against so far?

It's hard to tell because I've won so fast. Delver, Storm, Death Blade perhaps? Nothing as quite as satisfying as comboing out faster than Storm. My only worry is running out of gas… More testing is needed but definitely a lot of fun.

[Rocco111]

Do you not miss the cards like FoW or Daze to react with the T1 hate or to get the counter protection for the fatty? How is the Chancellor a counter for Surgical? Surgical is quite annoying. Do you play B/R Reanimator online or paper?


Collective Brutality seems interesting enough to test it. :)


I played the deck both online (Cockatrice) and paper. Good to decent results overall. As am also playing UR Delver a lot, I can tell you that no, in this version of Reanimator, I do not miss Daze or FoW. Point is, the deck has more acceleration than the UB version due to Simian Spirit Guide. And Chancellor is here to prevent any interaction from your opponent.
'Any' is obviously a bit too much, since you can turn around Chancellor the way you would a Daze.

Another major strength of the deck is its ability to be able to hadcaest some/most of its fatties (depending on your version), i.e. Sire of Insanity (often MVP is played T1/2), Titans (Grave but also Inferno) and even Griselbrand.

At last, you can also lean towards TinFins is you include Children of Korlis/Sickening Dreams (or Grapeshot).

Overall, the major pluses for this deck is that it is an underdog in the meta and people do not expect Reanimator to be this fast. And it is tons of fun to play.

M2c

[caprino]

I played the deck both online (Cockatrice) and paper. Good to decent results overall. As am also playing UR Delver a lot, I can tell you that no, in this version of Reanimator, I do not miss Daze or FoW. Point is, the deck has more acceleration than the UB version due to Simian Spirit Guide. And Chancellor is here to prevent any interaction from your opponent.
'Any' is obviously a bit too much, since you can turn around Chancellor the way you would a Daze.

Another major strength of the deck is its ability to be able to hadcaest some/most of its fatties (depending on your version), i.e. Sire of Insanity (often MVP is played T1/2), Titans (Grave but also Inferno) and even Griselbrand.

At last, you can also lean towards TinFins is you include Children of Korlis/Sickening Dreams (or Grapeshot).

Overall, the major pluses for this deck is that it is an underdog in the meta and people do not expect Reanimator to be this fast. And it is tons of fun to play.

M2c
do yuo have a list b/r reanimator? THANKS

[Rocco111]

http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=20855&iddeck=159429
Not mine, but very good example for a 'stock' Dindon Rea.

Then this is the one I played during a BoM Annecy Trials. The REB n Pyro were purely metagame-oriented and could be replaced with better options, more suitable to what you expect... I did 4-1 with it:
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Entomb
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Firestorm
4 Faithless Looting
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Reanimate
2 Animate Dead
4 Exhume
4 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Sire of Insanity
1 Grave Titan
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Children of Korlis
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Griselbrand
4 Badlands
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 1 Inferno Titan
SB: 1 Ashen Rider
SB: 1 Blazing Archon
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 1 Rakdos Charm
SB: 1 Sickening Dreams
SB: 3 Stronghold Gambit
SB: 3 Sneak Attack
SB: 1 Pithing Needle

You are welcome.

[DNSolver]

What's the appeal of playing the "dindon rea" version, which plays Firestorms and Spirit Guides, over my version with Thoughtseize and Unmask? Are there any matchups you are looking to make better? I guess it's a bit easier to kill Containment Priest / DRS with Firestorm and a bit easier to hardcast some fatties with 4 Spirit Guides, but if you're only hardcasting Sire it's really not good enough sometimes.

If someone who plays the Firestorm / Spirit Guide version could chime in here that would be great.

Also, I think I am going to start writing a primer on the B/R version that me and some others have been jamming. It will be in the new/developmental decks section eventually.

[Jojja]

I think both the Firestorm and Unmask tech's will be out dated in a few weeks as Collective Brutality becomes legal. Gives you the best of both worlds.

[Fox]

Unmask runs quite a bit quicker than Coll. Brutality can, B/R versions aren't really known for getting to 2 mana to fire off their discard (otherwise they'd have likely been using Hymn).

[Echelon]

I think both the Firestorm and Unmask tech's will be out dated in a few weeks as Collective Brutality becomes legal. Gives you the best of both worlds.

You do know you can activate every mode only once, right..?

[Rocco111]

You do know you can activate every mode only once, right..?

Very true, that.
Although I still agree with the statement that Collective Brutality looks really sexy in a BR build.

Now to answer the question as to why Firestorm version over Unmask/Thoughtseize version.
1/ CD
- You need to pitch a black card to get to have your opponent to discard a card. And this is not even granted if you get countered.
- More often than I wish did I see players pitching Griselbrand or a reanimation spell to cast Unmask... Besides the above, I mean, you are forcing yourself to litteraly get rid of a win-con to "maybe" discard a card... This is like "über-CD" imho.
2/ Life
- Playing Reanimate, Griselbrand, fetchlands and sometimes Gitaxian Probes, your life points can already get really low sometimes. So it is really worth losing even more life points which would probably have given you the possibility of drawing 14 instead of 7?
3/ Reactivity
- Like Entomb, Firestorm can be played at the end of turn of your opponent.
- It can be played 'in response' to something, said an Infect player pumping up his threat or this Esper-player trying to equip a creature.
4/ Additional Win-Con
- You can kill your opponent (or his PWs) with Firestorm. You cannot with Unmask or Thoughtseize. And so, it never is a bad topdeck.
5/ Speed
- With 4 additional mana accelerators, the Firestorm is by default faster than the discard version.

This being said, a crossover of both is totally doable... Haven't done it, but why not.

M2c

[Rampart]

What's the appeal of playing the "dindon rea" version, which plays Firestorms and Spirit Guides, over my version with Thoughtseize and Unmask? Are there any matchups you are looking to make better? I guess it's a bit easier to kill Containment Priest / DRS with Firestorm and a bit easier to hardcast some fatties with 4 Spirit Guides, but if you're only hardcasting Sire it's really not good enough sometimes.

If someone who plays the Firestorm / Spirit Guide version could chime in here that would be great.

Also, I think I am going to start writing a primer on the B/R version that me and some others have been jamming. It will be in the new/developmental decks section eventually.

I think the big selling point is the sideboard. SCG and the COT gives you the ability to actually cast you monsters for little investment and support the card Sneak Attack properly which is a large commitment in a 14 land deck. If you look at the sideboard as a way to skirt graveyard hate such like leyline (and to some extend the Cage/DRS/RIP etc) then SCG and the COT gives you the ability work around that while also giving you a more threat dense plan. I wouldn't personally run it but I am pretty sure that's the point.

Do people ever resolve Stronghold Gambit and stick a monster? in 100 matches I have played online I am not sure I have ever resolved it.

[Rocco111]

I think the big selling point is the sideboard. SCG and the COT gives you the ability to actually cast you monsters for little investment and support the card Sneak Attack properly which is a large commitment in a 14 card deck. If you look at the sideboard as a way to skirt graveyard hate such like leyline (and to some extend the Cage/DRS/RIP etc) then SCG and the COT gives you the ability work around that while also giving you a more threat dense plan. I wouldn't personally run it but I am pretty sure that's the point.

Do people ever resolve Stronghold Gambit and stick a monster? in 100 matches I have played online I am not sure I have ever resolved it.

Sideboard options are also a good point, although I cannot see why would the Discard version not be able to play Sneak Attack. Won't be as efficient, sure.

For S.Gambit, I think you should also tell vs which deck did you try to cheat a criter in? Like, typically, S.Gambit is auto-win vs combo decks (including Sneak n Show) and aside from Blue-based combo decks, it never gets countered... If you attempt S.Gambit versus aggro decks (incl. Burn), there's little chance this plan will ever work (obv).

[DNSolver]

I have used Stronghold Gambit against Lands and Storm. I typically take out 4 Faithless Looting and put in 4 Gambit, with the reasoning that I would rather put a creature into play than discard it. I could also see cutting discard spells / Firestorm for it.

What is CoT? Chancellor of the Annex? I don't know what you're referring to here. @Rampart

@Rocco:

1) If you are casting Unmask on your opponent, which you are in most cases, then you are fine with it getting countered because you can then combo off. If it doesn't get countered, you take their counterspell or Surgical or whatever and that is worth two cards to us. I do understand the card disadvantage argument, though Firestorm is the same way sometimes. If you pitch two cards to kill Deathrite, you are investing three cards from your hand. I have used Unmask on myself a bunch of times to turn a mediocre hand into a turn 1. Plus, after some draw 7s you can cast two of these and there's no way your opponent will be dealing with your stuff anymore after taking two key cards out of their hand.

2) I can understand the life loss argument with Thoughtseize and I bet that Firestorm is better on the draw against Deathrite.

3) I remember playing Firestorm to good effect against Infect to kill creatures. fair argument

4+5) fair argument

I just think that having discard spells seems so good against the decks that are willing to mulligan a lot to try to interact. If someone mulligans to 4 or 5 looking for a Surgical or Faerie Macabre, I would like to be able to cast a discard spell and take their Surgical rather than get blown out. It just seems like you are colder to a lot of free hate from hand. That being said, if you are all-in on ignoring that with the Sneak Attack / Stronghold Gambit plan, then you should be all-in on it with 4 of each I think. But then without discard Gambit is so much worse.

I am still writing the R/B primer and it's going to be great. Feel free to PM me with any information you want to make sure I include, even just bullet points that I will elaborate on myself.

[Rampart]

Sideboard options are also a good point, although I cannot see why would the Discard version not be able to play Sneak Attack. Won't be as efficient, sure.

Because a 4 mana enchantment can be difficult to cast either on time or ahead of time. Especially one that is heavy on Red in you mana. The discard Version runs less Red sources in general too so you can get color-screwed slightly more often.


For S.Gambit, I think you should also tell vs which deck did you try to cheat a criter in? Like, typically, S.Gambit is auto-win vs combo decks (including Sneak n Show) and aside from Blue-based combo decks, it never gets countered... If you attempt S.Gambit versus aggro decks (incl. Burn), there's little chance this plan will ever work (obv).

I have only been siding it in against elves. In all honesty I bring S. Gambit against all the decks that S.Gambit is strong against? Lands, Show and Tell based decks, Ritual Based Combo, I also add a couple for the Eldrazi matchup to hedge against Leyline. Gambit has just never worked out for me I guess, I think i have resolved it one time against storm and they put in a Bob (:rolleyes:) it ether gets stripped, or reanimating is the better option or I never draw it, etc.. I am not sure that I even want it in those matchup's to be honest as the hate is minimal or not effective like Flusterstorm out of storm. I think I am going to try something else that make the eldazi match up better

@DNSolver - CoT - City of Traitors

[Rocco111]

Because a 4 mana enchantment can be difficult to cast either on time or ahead of time. Especially one that is heavy on Red in you mana. The discard Version runs less Red sources in general too so you can get color-screwed slightly more often.



I have only been siding it in against elves. In all honesty I bring S. Gambit against all the decks that S.Gambit is strong against? Lands, Show and Tell based decks, Ritual Based Combo, I also add a couple for the Eldrazi matchup to hedge against Leyline. Gambit has just never worked out for me I guess, I think i have resolved it one time against storm and they put in a Bob (:rolleyes:) it ether gets stripped, or reanimating is the better option or I never draw it, etc.. I am not sure that I even want it in those matchup's to be honest as the hate is minimal or not effective like Flusterstorm out of storm. I think I am going to try something else that make the eldazi match up better

@DNSolver - CoT - City of Traitors

:laugh: vs Elfball :laugh: good one.
I think that you did the right choice in the MUs you boarded it in. But as I was more than once pointed at, variance is also part of the equation. Versus Storm, yes, if they put Bob, Gambit sucks... but well, sh*t happens.

It is not so much a Hate card as a 'Dodge' card, allowing you to bypass their hate.
But I can totally understand that it may not appeal to all. :)

[Rampart]

:laugh: vs Elfball :laugh: good one.
I think that you did the right choice in the MUs you boarded it in. But as I was more than once pointed at, variance is also part of the equation. Versus Storm, yes, if they put Bob, Gambit sucks... but well, sh*t happens.

It is not so much a Hate card as a 'Dodge' card, allowing you to bypass their hate.
But I can totally understand that it may not appeal to all. :)

OK

Anyone else have any success running S.Gambit and getting monsters in to play?

[RNGesus]

I noticed that that the winning reanimator lists are all unanimously UBg, with minor differences in number of duplicates and perhaps reanimation targets. Has reanimator been "solved"?

I feel that reanimator has hit it's ceiling as they are unlikely to print more tools (reanimation spells>reanimate, free counterspells, disruption>thoughtseize, anti-hate>abrupt decay). With that in mind I splurged on a stock UBg reanimator list (I know that reanimator may not be the most competitive, but it's the coolest deck ever imo and i had the cash lying around) My only worry is that reanimator will never get any new cards outside reanimation targets :(

[Stryfo]

I can't say that this is certain, since I haven't tested it yet, but I feel really good about Collective Brutality coming out in the next set, I think it will be a big tool for some reanimator players.

As an aside, I think that there are two camps of reanimator players (Decks?):

1)All in on the Combo: We see this style in the lower land count + lotus petal builds, i.e. the decks that CAN go off on turn one.

2)More interaction: We see this style in the slightly higher land count, no petals, but more interactive pieces, similar to my 4c GP build.

Back to your question, if you fall in the second camp, I think that new toys can and will come your way, but if you fall in the first camp, you're less likely to get new cards because of how streamlined the list is.

[RNGesus]

As an aside, I think that there are two camps of reanimator players (Decks?):

1)All in on the Combo: We see this style in the lower land count + lotus petal builds, i.e. the decks that CAN go off on turn one.

2)More interaction: We see this style in the slightly higher land count, no petals, but more interactive pieces, similar to my 4c GP build.



Haha what camp would you say this list falls in?

Creatures (8)

4x griselbrand
1x iona
1x sire of insanity
1x elesh norn
1x archetype of endurance

Reanimation spells (9)

4x reanimate
4x exhume
1x animate dead

Dig (14)

4x brainstorm
2x ponder
4x careful study
4x entomb

Disruption (9)

4x FoW
3x daze
2x thoughtseize

Misc (5)

3x lotus petal
2x show and tell

Lands (15)

3x underground sea
1x bayou
1x tropical island
4x polluted delta
1x flooded strand
1x marsh flats,
2x bloodstained mire
1x swamp
1x island

Sideboard

1x ashen rider
1x tidespout tyrant
4x abrupt decay
2x show and tell
2x thoughtseize
2x echoing truth
3x pithing needle


It is not exactly all in, but it does have the ability to get griselbrand out T1. It seems like the build is already streamlined though, just about tweaking card ratios but the card choices (other than reanimation targets) seem to be set in stone. Hell, I don't even know what I'd cut for Collective Brutality!

[Stryfo]

My criteria for whether a build is all in is simple: is it playing lotus petals. Sinc ethe list you have shown is, it is what I will call "all in". since your deck only has 15 lands, it is hard to slot in cards that cost more than one and don't win the game, so your interaction is generally limited to thoughtseize and free counterspells, as I'm sure you've noticed.

Also, not playing tidespout tyrant in the main seems pretty odd to me, I'd highly recommend making room for him.

[RNGesus]

Indeed, the interaction is limited to protecting the (admittedly) linear gameplan. It does feel like a one trick pony, but the "trick" is materializing silver bullets at an unreasonable speed so I believe it will keep its relevance as long as the silver bullets are made, and thus staying a cornerstone of the meta that will have to be respected. I do feel that it's just a card away from being made obsolete as an archetype, as the reanimation tools are already pushed to their limits, but they can still print more powerful pieces of grave hate (though it's hard to think of something that abrupt decay cannot answer)

Mind sharing with me your list to peruse? :P

[Rocco111]

I noticed that that the winning reanimator lists are all unanimously UBg, with minor differences in number of duplicates and perhaps reanimation targets. Has reanimator been "solved"?

I feel that reanimator has hit it's ceiling as they are unlikely to print more tools (reanimation spells>reanimate, free counterspells, disruption>thoughtseize, anti-hate>abrupt decay). With that in mind I splurged on a stock UBg reanimator list (I know that reanimator may not be the most competitive, but it's the coolest deck ever imo and i had the cash lying around) My only worry is that reanimator will never get any new cards outside reanimation targets :(

I don't think that Reanimator has been solved per say.
As you can read, there are debates regarding the several iterations of the deck (monoB, UB, UBg, RB...). However as it was for many other archetypes, WizCo is becoming more n more cautious about the printing of new cards.
It seems they do not really like the concept of Reanimator albeit it is very popular amongst Eternal players. The reason being that it is really difficult to create new "fair" reanimation spells. The last one to date was Unburial Rites. And before that, it was Dread Return. Both cards are awesome but led to an almost unhealthy Standard Meta. And as the goal of WizCo is to promote Standard above other formats since it is the only format actually boosting the number of boosters sold, it is only natural to understand that Reanimate will be the only card doing what it does for this cost. Animate Dead has been around for ever but they stop reprinting it after the 4th ed. Exhume was a new cool tool but was created to be "fair", both players having the possibility to cheat sthg in play.

So I believe the only real changes or improvements to the Reanimator archetype can come in the form of new ways to draw-effect, discard-effect or creatures. But I'd happy to be proven wrong by WizCo. :)

[RNGesus]

there are debates regarding the several iterations of the deck (monoB, UB, UBg, RB...)
I went to look up mtgtop8.com and it seems to be only RB, RBg and UBg at the moment (that was weird, I could have sworn it was almost entirely UBg at one point). The reddit page seems to be of the opinion that UBg is the most superior, though from what I can see the RB versions are putting up more numbers on MTGO, which should have a larger meta compared to a paper tourney? Are there any plans for a more updated primer(s)?

[Fox]

The reddit page seems to be of the opinion that UBg is the most superior, though from what I can see the RB versions are putting up more numbers on MTGO, which should have a larger meta compared to a paper tourney? Are there any plans for a more updated primer(s)?
RB destroys fair decks, UBg is meant to feast on combo while protecting itself. The top8 website puts combo at 1 in 5 decks (but you're one of those combo decks which means only 1-2 combo decks running around an 8-16 person event, going by global average), which explains a lot about why UBg isn't thriving. It's also important to remember that RB has 8 (I think) 2-drop reanimation effects, making it much more likely to kill a deck with a "good" miracles matchup (eldrazi/aggro loam/other chalice decks). Not that it's too major a factor, but RB reanimator also has a more Wasteland-resistant manabase.

In much the same way, over-representation of fair decks can favor decks like Belcher over ANT or Big Red over Sneak 'n Show.

[PirateKing]

I can't say that this is certain, since I haven't tested it yet, but I feel really good about Collective Brutality coming out in the next set, I think it will be a big tool for some reanimator players.

Stryfo, I'm reading Collective Brutality as a potential replacement for Izzet Charm. Both offer interactivity with opposing counterspells and the like, kill a DRS, and both put creatures in the graveyard. Since we've both been splashing red, I'm curious what your opinions are.
A few of my worries are losing the Instant speed, plus the legitimate digging Izzet Charm offers. Pitching to Force of Will is always a plus.
On the other hand, being able to cut red and shore up the manabase with more basics is a strong upside.
I'll definitely be doing some testing myself.

[Stryfo]

@RNGesus, here is the list I like to play:

Creature (12)
1x Archetype of Endurance
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3x Griselbrand
4x Hapless Researcher
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1x Tidespout Tyrant

Sorcery (12)
4x Careful Study
4x Exhume
4x Reanimate

Land (17)
2x Badlands
4x Polluted Delta
1x Swamp
2x Tropical Island
4x Underground Sea
4x Verdant Catacombs

Instant (17)
4x Brainstorm
4x Entomb
4x Force of Will
3x Izzet Charm
2x Misdirection

Enchantment (2)

2x Animate Dead

Sideboard (15)
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Echoing Truth
1x Golgari Charm
1x Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
2x Pithing Needle
1x Pyroclasm
1x Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1x Sulfur Elemental
3x Thoughtseize

@PirateKing:

my initial testing of Collective brutality will involve doing the following to my list (not worrying about the manabase):

-3 Charms
+3 Collective Brutality

-1 animate dead
+1 ponder or JVP (not sure on this slot yet, but I need a blue card here possibly SnT, even though I don't care for SnT in the meta right now)

swap the position of Iona and Jin to bring blue count back to a good level.

not sure what I'll do to the board, but it will stay largely similar, only cutting the red cards.

[Msbrigido1989]

Did Anyone tried Jace, Vryn's Prodigy?
I am think about to test on my UBg reanimator
Here is the list:

15 Lands:

1x Swamp
1x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
2x Island
2x Verdant Catacombs
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Underground Sea
4x Polluted Delta

9 Creature:

1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Inkwell Leviathan
1x Empyrial Archangel
2x Hapless Researcher
3x Griselbrand

31 Instant and Sorceries:

2x Thoughtseize
3x Daze
3x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
4x Entomb
4x Exhume
4x Force of Will
4x Reanimate
4x Careful Study

4 Enchantment and Artifacts :

1x Animate Dead
3x Lotus Petal

Sideboard:

1x Echoing Truth
1x Surgical extraction
1x Dread of night
1x Ashen Rider
1x Sickening Dreams
2x Disfigure
2x Massacre
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Pithing Needle

What do you guys think about my build?
I am open to suggestions e criticism, especially because i really dont know if adding babe jace will help my games
p.s: here in Brazil has a small tournament within 32-38 players, and we play once in a month at weekend, mostly are esper deathblade, miracles and death taxes, and is quiet painful to play against :cry:

[Damaku]

because i really dont know if adding babe jace will help my games

I was there, I tried him, and I did not like it.
He feels bad in any place. You do dot realy want to have him an your start hand and you dont want to draw him. If he is on the board he feels like a bad Researcher, I realy do not like him...

[Msbrigido1989]

I was there, I tried him, and I did not like it.
He feels bad in any place. You do dot realy want to have him an your start hand and you dont want to draw him. If he is on the board he feels like a bad Researcher, I realy do not like him...

I thought the same way as you. He can give me a lot of advantage but it takes a lot of time to do it, still the fact that he is a 2 drop, can be hit by bolt or plowshare, and most of the time playing a discard spell or counter would be much better. Reanimator is a turn 1-2 combo, not 3-4.
How about show and tell in G2, using it as sideboard in particular against miracles, death and taxes and esper?
I'm asking you because i have a hard life against this types of decks with plenty of graveyard hate.

[Ephemeron]

I like JVP but only as a sideboard option. In boarded games, you can 1) expect the game to play out slower due to the amount of hate your opponent will board in; and 2) expect your opponent to board out mediocre removal spells like Lightning Bolt/STP/Abrupt Decay (maybe) that would otherwise kill JVP. These two facts combine to make him pretty solid. Obviously being able to recast a countered entomb is great, but sometimes he lets you cast a second abrupt decay or another Duress to clear the way.

[TGCRequiem]

So I'm new to the deck. A couple questions if anyone would like to respond.

What matchups is Jace most useful against post board?
Also if you are uncertain if you need abrupt decay or pithing needle post board is it right to favor one in particular or split them?
Also I'm curious to better understand the 4 daze vs 0 daze arguments/discussion.

My initial list is basically Cedric Phillips GP Seattle (UBg) list +/- a couple cards.

Thank you for feedback.

[Fox]

To add on to what @Ephemeron and @Msbrigido1989 have said on the topic:
Outside of using the combination of Entomb + Flip-Jace as 1-mana Intuition to find the missing combo piece (as well as the whole activate to flip pitching reanimation target), you will primarily want this card to stop Baleful Strix. His ult isn't amazing, but it is a wincon vs miracles.

If you ever expect Karakas as the main threat, Pithing Needle is probably the better card to bring in. Without knowing what deck you're up against it's not really possible to answer that question accurately.

Can you produce a list that runs blue without Daze whilst still running FoW? No Daze sounds like a budget option where the pilot is substituting things like Watery Grave/Darkslick Shores/River of Tears for U. Sea.

[TGCRequiem]

To add on to what @Ephemeron and @Msbrigido1989 have said on the topic:
Outside of using the combination of Entomb + Flip-Jace as 1-mana Intuition to find the missing combo piece (as well as the whole activate to flip pitching reanimation target), you will primarily want this card to stop Baleful Strix. His ult isn't amazing, but it is a wincon vs miracles.

If you ever expect Karakas as the main threat, Pithing Needle is probably the better card to bring in. Without knowing what deck you're up against it's not really possible to answer that question accurately.

Can you produce a list that runs blue without Daze whilst still running FoW? No Daze sounds like a budget option where the pilot is substituting things like Watery Grave/Darkslick Shores/River of Tears for U. Sea.

https://m.facebook.com/CedricAPhillips/posts/1066768450023139

I also feel like I've seen several lists that don't run Daze though most often it is a 3 or 4 of. Besides Daze was only like $3 before the reprint, not sure it would be cut for budget reasons.

[Fox]

So we're looking at a list with 17 blue cards you'd actually pitch to FoW (probably aren't throwing out a SnT). Thoughtseize is somewhat questionable (life loss) over Duress; the only advantage here being you can hit a creature. Looking at the board, the discard over Daze makes more sense since he's somewhere between Reanimator and Sneak and Show (due to 4 copies post-board) - when you're that all-in on the SnT option, you need to hit 3 mana which is why we wouldn't see Daze (as opponent also has 3 lands presumably). Thinking more about it, he probably anticipated a fair amount of Shardless BUG (Thoughtseize Goyf, beat them to death with it).

Edit: final thought, it's totally overkill on ways to put reanimation target from hand into yard, but Thoughtseize can target self; but there's already 4x Careful Study, 2 SnT, and then access to 3x Flip-Jace and 2x more SnT. That's getting into needing B/R reanimator levels (12 slots) of reanimation effects just to keep parody.

[DNSolver]

Everyone who was in this thread concerning Black/Red Reanimator, please see the new thread for us disgusting Griselbranders in the New/Developmental decks section:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30840-Primer-BRx-Griselbrand-Reanimator

[RNGesus]

https://m.facebook.com/CedricAPhillips/posts/1066768450023139

Interesting that he disapproves of running Tidespout and Grave Titan. Would Archetype of Endurance be considered over Inkwell? 3 JVP as well in the side as well hmm... May be outdated in view of the latest SCG legacy open (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?t%5BT3%5D=3&event_ID=20&feedin=&start_date=07%2F09%2F2016&end_date=07%2F10%2F2016&city=Worcester&state=&country=&start=1&finish=32&exp=&p_first=&p_last=&simple_card_name%5B1%5D=&simple_card_name%5B2%5D=&simple_card_name%5B3%5D=&simple_card_name%5B4%5D=&simple_card_name%5B5%5D=&w_perc=0&g_perc=0&r_perc=0&b_perc=0&u_perc=0&a_perc=0&comparison%5B1%5D=%3E%3D&card_qty%5B1%5D=1&card_name%5B1%5D=&comparison%5B2%5D=%3E%3D&card_qty%5B2%5D=1&card_na)
where a single reanimator pilot managed to get some results (running Grave Titan and Tidespout, but 2 JVP!)

[Downpesman]

Hi. Any word on the mono black reanimator primer?

[paraszczak]

Will be on Friday. Right now I finish opening hands analysis.

[wcm8]

So I realize most people playing Reanimator have adopted Jace, Vryn's Prodigy somewhere in their 75 by now, usually as a 2-of in either the main or the SB. But I wonder why he isn't being played in a higher amount seeing as the card functions as a Swiss Army Knife practically tailor-made for UBx Reanimator's strategic requirements.

I can't claim to have done a *ton* of play-testing yet and obviously haven't settled upon a perfect configuration, but I think that there's probably a very good build of UBx Reanimator that is running 3-4 copies of JVP in the main. Consider JVP's addition to the existing Reanimator deck somewhat akin to how there are multiple variations of Miracles.dec, with various card choices being trade-offs for consistency over power. He does everything that this deck wants to do, especially in game 1 when you aren't typically having to fight through quite as much grave hate:


He provides a Loot effect, much like Hapless Researcher. Researcher was previously played as a 4-of in older builds of the deck, and still shows up in successful lists from time to time. Though JVP is a bit slower and more expensive at :1::u: and having summoning sickness, I think this is more than made up for by the fact that the ability is *repeatable* -- not *every* opening hand can be pure gas, and at least a JVP + 2 lands + some other stuff might make an otherwise mediocre hand completely keep-able and help advance you towards winning. In the absence of Entomb, it's great not having to hold onto a Careful Study or Thoughtseize while searching for a creature with your cantrips. The looting effect increases your card quality and can help dig for whatever is needed in the current circumstances -- so it's useful even if you're facing down a Leyline of the Void and are really just digging for a removal spell (or perhaps a Show and Tell), for example. Furthermore, being a 2cmc spell is actually nice given the prevalence of Chalice of the Void in the current metagame -- you're less likely to get completely screwed by a Chalice on 1.
As a creature, he does all of the following: he provides a buffer from Edict effects and serves as a lightning-rod for StP and other hard removal spells (thus allowing your 'real' threats to be shielded from the removal -- your opponent holding a single StP in hand is faced with the dilemma of killing JVP right away or saving it for the Griselbrand to come -- either way it's to your advantage to force the question. This also screws up their side-boarding plans, as they now have to consider whether it's worthwhile to leave in removal that would typically have otherwise been sided out); he becomes another threat with an on-board Elesh-Norn that can help win a race; he can chump block a ground attacker when needed; he can't be countered by Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm and similar stuff; he provides a jump-start on the possibility of running a Transformative Sideboard, e.g. Delver, DRS, Dark Confidant, etc. would be buddies with JVP + the Blue Tempo Shell already present; etc.
The card is Blue, increasing the requisite count for Force of Will (and occasional Misdirection). Pyroblast aside, this is generally a welcome attribute.
His flip side is BONKERS. In order, he does the following: the +1 de-buffs a threat, buying you some extra time to set up (though it's typically *not* the first ability activated, there are situations where this proves helpful); the -3 ability lets you brute-force your way through opposing counterspells or other resistance by flashing back previous reanimation attempts AND/OR allowing you to flash back stuff like Thoughtseize or Ponder as needed; the -3 ability also turns extra copies of Entomb into a Tutor effect for whichever Spell is needed in the current game-state; the -3 ability also makes Careful Study more powerful since you can discard spells with the intention of flashing them back; the -9 is admittedly rarely going to be triggered, but it's useful in the sense of providing an alternative method of winning the game in case you don't have an answer to whatever hard-lock the opponent assembled (e.g. Humility; Ensnaring Bridge (with no removal spells left), etc.)

I realize that Reanimator.dec is powerful largely because of its explosiveness (especially in Game 1), but running 3-4 JVP and altering the deck's configuration to be a bit to be more consistent (albeit at the cost of some explosiveness) could make for a better deck overall, especially in a metagame full of Blue decks. I actually think that if you want to be more explosive, the Rakdos builds that have been putting up results might be a better approach for this strategic angle of attack -- or perhaps Tin Fins might be better if you're staying within UBx colors. Blue is such an amazing secondary color thanks to the power of Cantrips and Counterspells, which tend to be more powerful over time instead of just enabling an all-in early-game rush.

I totally get that by running Jace, you are 'turning-on' the opponent's removal spells which might otherwise be practically useless (e.g. decks running Lightning Bolt suddenly have a valid target) -- but I don't think the "dies to removal" argument is all that strong here, given the potential power of the card in question. I am also positing that a new version of UBx Reanimator would run 3-4 copies in the main, meaning that if one copy 'dies' or is countered or whatever, you are more likely to have a backup copy to deploy.

So with this all in mind, I present an early draft of "JVP Reanimator":

17 Lands (4 delta, 2 catacombs, 2 rainforest, 3 u. sea, 2 trop. island, 1 bayou, 2 island, 1 swamp) -- the idea being that you always want 2 lands in play for casting JVP, and running 17 will also help reduce mulligans. This is actually 'more' lands than RUG, BUG or Grixis Delver are running, given that those decks are using Wasteland as more of a spell. Extra lands can be discarded to JVP or Careful Study, or shuffled away with Brainstorm + Fetchland/Ponder, though I don't find flooding to be that common.

sidenote: with the higher land count, another discard outlet to possibly begin considering somewhere in the 75 is Liliana of the Veil. Like JVP, she serves multiple functions while still advancing the deck's main goal of dumping a big creature in the yard to reanimate.

0 Lotus Petal -- sometimes sacred cows need slain: while Petal provides explosiveness, it's only for a single turn. Additionally, Petal sometimes forces you to mulligan hands that would've otherwise been keepable had it been a Land instead of a one-shot artifact. I appreciate how powerful it is to have a turn 1 or 2 reanimation, but this tends to be fairly uncommon given that you need your draws to line up perfectly (and also not face any resistance from your opponent). There frequently tends to be at least 1 component for Reanimation missing from your opening 7: a creature, a card to get said creature into the bin, a reanimation spell, and enough mana to cast the spells. If any component is missing, then you are either forced to mulligan or can expect the game to go beyond the first couple turns. In a deck built for consistency over explosiveness, I don't think it's so bad to spend another couple turns for set-up. Like UBx Storm (ANT, as opposed to TES), you have the *potential* for going off early, but more likely you can consistently achieve a 'Win' by around turn 3 or 4, often with protection in the form of pro-active discard and/or counterspell backup. There are better 'Glass Cannon' decks out there, and I think Reanimator is successful thanks to the consistency granted from its Blue half -- with JVP simply being a fantastic all-in-one tool for the job.

4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy -- as argued for previously, this guy has multiple functions and makes for a very consistent build. I think running the full play-set is worth it unless it's proven that the deck really doesn't want to see multiples frequently. But so far in testing, I've *always* been happy to see him in both my opener and as a top-deck as the game progresses.

The rest of the deck is fairly standard:

4 FoW
3 Daze
4 Bstorm
3 Ponder
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
4 Entomb
4 Careful Study
2 Thoughtseize
4 Griselbrand
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

Regarding the sideboard: Right now I have the deck configured with Green as the tertiary splash color, mainly because I think Abrupt Decay is just so damn good. Golgari Charm is also nice by serving duty as both Enchantment and small-creature removal -- given the prevalence of Elves and D&T among others, it's a pretty nice card to be running right now. There are some other fringe Green cards to consider that are quite good in UBx Reanimator: Carpet of Flowers; City of Solitude, etc.

But other colors could just as easily be splashed for by adjusting the lands (alternatively, a straight Dimir build would probably be fine and would benefit from running a few more Basic lands to avoid non-basic land hate). For example, Red could provide access to stuff like Pyroblast, Firestorm, Izzet Charm.

I previously mentioned the possibility of pulling a Tin Fins and having a transformative sideboard. Show and Tell is a decent method of side-stepping graveyard hate, but with the main deck, we are already well on the way towards resembling a UBx aggro/control deck -- just add a few more threats (preferably ones that don't need the graveyard), and you have a deck that can attack from a completely different (and hopefully, unexpected) angle, making the opponent's graveyard hate and sideboarding-out-of-removal look pretty silly. Backed up with JVP, the deck could run some number of creatures like: DRS, Dark Confidant, Delver of Secrets, TNN, (with splash) Young Pyromancer, Stoneforge Mystic, Monastery Mentor, etc. and perhaps might also want some removal spells of its own, e.g. Lightning Bolt, Swords to Plowshares, etc.

[Fox]

4x Flip-Jace seems a bit excessive. You're playing without Petals, and this is your T2 play - how are you winning through graveyard usage? There's no doubt it does everything we want fixing hands, Entomb = tutor for any part of the combo, relatively resistant to removal (you can return with Reanimate, and you can -3 to still cast that same Reanimate), and some other cool features like alt-casting from yard (cards like Massacre) or preserving life total with +1 ability.

Decay is everywhere which by itself doesn't really matter, however it means that DRS is also right there with it. Now we need removal spells with this slower plan, of which the least harmful is Izzet Charm (well until you run into Wasteland decks)? If DRS couldn't eat spells Darkblast would be the optimal card, with Flip-Jace as you could very easily dredge over 6 cards per turn very quickly assembling reanimation target and effect in yard for the -3 ability.

In my testing this card is a fine 2x in Reanimator, but if you start going above that you're probably required to be a Wasteland/mana denial deck. Now while that's doable, you're not willing to pay the real cost which includes [but is not limited to] being unable to run Decay anywhere in the 75.

[wcm8]

In testing I am seeing that 17 lands is probably excessive, and 16 is probably better. 15 *might* still be do-able despite the increased emphasis on a 2-drop (JVP).

And perhaps cutting the 4th copy of JVP might be correct. But I still think a minimum of 3 copies is worthwhile.

With the additional room from these cuts (perhaps also cutting the 3rd Ponder) we have space to add some number of Lotus Petals and/or additional copies of Thoughtseize or perhaps even the new Collective Brutality. Some might even like to add an Animate Dead as the 9th Reanimation spell, though with JVP in the deck I think its not really needed, especially given that Entomb can tutor for Reanimate/Exhume and JVP can flash them back.

With these changes, the suggested list is close to being the current "standard" forms of UBx Reanimator that have been putting up good tournament results, just with more copies of JVP in the main 60.

My point about Jace, Vryn's Prodigy still stands though: this card is insanely good in UBx Reanimator, and really does a lot towards giving the deck some mid-game power. He helps make the deck better able to recover from the first attempt or two getting disrupted. So I truly believe that EVERY version of the deck should be running a minimum of 2 copies in the 75, and I am an advocate for 3-4 copies.

edit: here's the revised list:

15 Lands (3 u. sea, 1 trop. island, 1 bayou, 1 island, 1 swamp, 4 delta, 2 catacombs, 2 rainforest)
3 Lotus Petal (alternatively, -1 Petal +1 Land, either another tropical island or basic island)
4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy (alternatively, -1 JVP, +1 copy of: another land or lotus petal, ponder, daze, thoughtseize, animate dead, Collective Brutality, a Reanimate-able creature chosen for the predicted metagame, some other card I'm not even thinking of, etc. -- basically whatever component you think would benefit the deck most.)
4 FoW
3 Daze
4 Bstorm
2 Ponder
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
4 Entomb
4 Careful Study
2 Thoughtseize
4 Griselbrand (some decks cut 1 GB for another target)
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Inkwell Leviathan (I've found to prefer this to Grave Titan, as I seem to face more Miracles and D&T than BUG midrange decks -- Inkwell is generally better against both and is also quite good elsewhere against decks where you want a big threat with Shroud)
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

A rambling, pedantic and perhaps extremely obvious and unnecessary aside regarding 61-card decks (with a tl;dr summary of the following paragraphs at the end): I occasionally see players of UBx Reanimator playing 61-card main decks. Obviously and perhaps needless to say, doing so with the above list would allow for an additional slot. Personally, I am not a fan of this approach -- an opinion that's likely shared with most Legacy players. There's been a lot of discussion elsewhere about the mathematics behind the 61st card issue, and as I recall, mathematical analysis shows that running the 61st card has a relatively minor effect on how a game might play out...

But I think that the point of discussing decklists on this site should be to work with fellow Legacy players in the Source community, bouncing ideas around, sharing tournament and playtesting results, discussing the merits of various cards both new and old, arguing for inclusions or removal of various cards and the number of copies to play of said cards... all towards the shared goal of reaching some sort of consensus as to what constitutes the maximally optimized list of an Archetype in the current metagame. (obviously I realize that given the game's complexity and finite-time between format updates, a truly optimal list is probably impossible.. but that's the Platonic Ideal.)

To me, this means playing the smallest allowable deck-size to maximize your chance of drawing the best cards, as well as minimize the likelihood of drawing weaker or situationally-usesless cards. Even though the effect of the presence/absence of 1 card is quite minor, I believe that there MUST be a "worst" card that can be cut, justified by mathematics -- and which card is cut might depend entirely on the predicted metagame.

To be fair: in Vintage, I'd be more open to potentially running a 61st card in the right deck, but that's only because of the presence of powerful Tutors and broken Card Draw spells which grant easier access to silver bullets that might've otherwise been cut as the 61st card. I suppose there are some Legacy decks that similarly benefit from Tutors and Silver Bullets given that they are running some form of Tutoring/card draw engine, but the Legacy format is designed to lack a Reserved List full of broken cards -- making it harder to argue for the inclusion of any more cards beyond 60.

tl;dr: don't run 61 cards in your Legacy decks

[RNGesus]

I dunno about 61 card decks. If its accepted that deck thinning due to fetches is negligible, then the additional card should not significantly detract from the deck's consistency. Certain packages of cards may be powerful enough to warrant going over the minimum deck size. I certainly wouldn't say that 61 card decks are out of the question.


Speaking of which, is there any consensus on the fatty selection for UBg? I noticed Sire of Insanity and Archetype of Endurance don't seem to have caught on. Sire of Insanity I understand, as it is only really useful if you power it out on the first turn or two. However the Archetype of Endurance I'd have expected to be more popular against as it helps out some of the bad matches like D&T, and maybe even miracles (Archetype+ Iona on white).

[theMonster]

I've been running Inkwell Leviathan maindeck instead of Tidespout Tyrant (which I've cut entirely for now) and have liked it a lot better. The latter needs gas in hand to be effective, and we often expend many or all of our resources to cheat it into play.

Inkwell is a bigger, more evasive body than Archetype and cuts the clock by a turn. Lands, DnT, and Miracles all struggle to beat it. DnT can't, for example, profitably block a trampling Inkwell with Thalia and then bounce her with Karakas. Inkwell is also blue, which isn't trivial. Admittedly I haven't played a ton with Archetype, but in the limited time I've played with it I've found Inkwell to be more impressive. One weakness of Inkwell, though, is you can't target it with Animate Dead (if you run it).

Is anyone running any maindeck "hate"? I recently sleeved up a miser's Engineered Explosives to combat Chalice and Deathrite, figuring E.E. is rarely a dead card. Anyone have experience with it? Any better tech?

Thanks!

[Hopo]

One weakness of Inkwell, though, is you can't target it with Animate Dead (if you run it).



That's not how this game works.

[theMonster]

Well if you target Inkwell with Animate Dead, the Animate Dead can't target the Inkwell put onto the battlefield 'cuz it has shroud ... right? So it would just fall off, and you'd have to sacrifice Inkwell(?). That's what I meant.

[RNGesus]

Well if you target Inkwell with Animate Dead, the Animate Dead can't target the Inkwell put onto the battlefield 'cuz it has shroud ... right? So it would just fall off, and you'd have to sacrifice Inkwell(?). That's what I meant.

"Auras only target while they're on the stack, not while on the battlefield. And shroud only works while it's on the battlefield, not in the graveyard or any other zone. So you can return a creature with shroud with Animate Dead." (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings/magic-rulings-archives/302724-animate-dead-shroud)

Inkwell can be raced with batterskull or answered by Council's Judgement/ Terminus, though it is still a solid choice. The rationale for Archetype is that sometimes you need to reanimate more than once, and the Archetype protects the second fatty. Archetype+Iona on white is fatal for D&T and miracles by shutting down terminus/council's judgement and karakas.

[owerbart]

I've been running Inkwell Leviathan maindeck instead of Tidespout Tyrant (which I've cut entirely for now) and have liked it a lot better. The latter needs gas in hand to be effective, and we often expend many or all of our resources to cheat it into play.

Inkwell is a bigger, more evasive body than Archetype and cuts the clock by a turn. Lands, DnT, and Miracles all struggle to beat it. DnT can't, for example, profitably block a trampling Inkwell with Thalia and then bounce her with Karakas. Inkwell is also blue, which isn't trivial. Admittedly I haven't played a ton with Archetype, but in the limited time I've played with it I've found Inkwell to be more impressive. One weakness of Inkwell, though, is you can't target it with Animate Dead (if you run it).

Is anyone running any maindeck "hate"? I recently sleeved up a miser's Engineered Explosives to combat Chalice and Deathrite, figuring E.E. is rarely a dead card. Anyone have experience with it? Any better tech?

Thanks!

I feel cutting Tyrant is a huge mistake. I always want that card in my maindeck since it's your go to way for leading with troublesome permanents. Without maindeck Tyrant i can see your g1 against lands (usually heavily in our favor) being impossible to win since you can't beat a glacial chasm. Tyrant is also nuts against infect and chalice decks, which are at an all time high.

[owerbart]

Also I feel Grave Titan deserves a MD spot since it's great in creature combat and against the eddict decks.

My cheeky sideboard tech is a copy of Keranos, which i bring against Miracles and other White based control decks.

-Dodges Karakas
-Dodges all creature removal
-Out of Decay range, indestructable so no maelstrom pulse
-Wipes any creature DnT puts against you
-You can reanimate it through containment priest, since it will enter the battlefield as an enchantment.

Seriously, if you deploy it your only worry is Council's judgement

[PirateKing]

Seriously, if you deploy it your only worry is Council's judgement

Not entirely true, I'm actually dropping my Keranos from the side, it's underperformed in all the places it should have shined. Yes it gets in under Containment Priest, but I've seen less and less deck run it. What you also have to worry about is just getting raced. D&T Vialing out a Mom gives them a permanent answer to Keranos, then any threat becomes a losing race. Against Miracles it dodges pretty much everything they have beyond the handful of Council's Judgement, but puts up such a slow clock it's hardly a surprise when they force through an Entreat for lethal before they die. So then the solution to these problems becomes getting a second creature out, but I've always maintained this should never be the ideal game plan. In so many instances we're fighting for our lives to just get one, and any time we've landed a second, the game is already swung so much in our favor it becomes borderline win-more. Every reanimation target should aim to close the game out single handedly. Some more than others in given board states, but no creature should be part of a dedicated "one-two punch".

[cris_rj]

I´m going to play a big legacy tournament in my town in 2 weeks. I'll play with the new b/r version reanimator that is becomming popular in magic online.

My list is something like this:

14 LANDS
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Underground Sea
11 CREATURES
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Griselbrand
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 Sire of Insanity

27 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Exhume
4 Faithless Looting
4 Reanimate
3 Thoughtseize
4 Unmask
8 OTHER SPELLS
4 Animate Dead
4 Lotus Petal

SIDEBOARD
3 City of Traitors
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Faerie Macabre
4 Show and Tell
1 Sire of Insanity
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Thoughtseize
1 Tidespout Tyrant



I'm having problems in what to side out to put 3 city of traitors and 4 show and tell. Normally I sideout 4 reanimante, but sometimes it feels like I'm loosing a lot of speed. DO you guys have suggestions in what to sideout to put those cards ? Ty !!

[RNGesus]

In so many instances we're fighting for our lives to just get one, and any time we've landed a second, the game is already swung so much in our favor it becomes borderline win-more. Every reanimation target should aim to close the game out single handedly. Some more than others in given board states, but no creature should be part of a dedicated "one-two punch".

Sadly I think reanimator is declining as an archetype. Nowadays the threats many decks play attack from too many angles and a single "silver bullet" fatty doesn't seem to cut it anymore. Council's judgement, karakas and increasingly maindeck-able grave hate mean that getting off a single reanimate is no longer the blow it used to be. Reanimator will gradually just be a weaker Sneak&Show eventually. But no deck will be as badass as reanimator in my heart and I will never dismantle it!

[Rocco111]

I´m going to play a big legacy tournament in my town in 2 weeks. I'll play with the new b/r version reanimator that is becomming popular in magic online.

My list is something like this:

14 LANDS
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Underground Sea
11 CREATURES
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Griselbrand
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 Sire of Insanity

27 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Exhume
4 Faithless Looting
4 Reanimate
3 Thoughtseize
4 Unmask
8 OTHER SPELLS
4 Animate Dead
4 Lotus Petal

SIDEBOARD
3 City of Traitors
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Faerie Macabre
4 Show and Tell
1 Sire of Insanity
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Thoughtseize
1 Tidespout Tyrant



I'm having problems in what to side out to put 3 city of traitors and 4 show and tell. Normally I sideout 4 reanimante, but sometimes it feels like I'm loosing a lot of speed. DO you guys have suggestions in what to sideout to put those cards ? Ty !!

I believe this should better be answer in the appropriate topic: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30840-Primer-BRx-Griselbrand-Reanimator

Still, I have a hard-time figuring out vs which MU would you cast Show and Tell while often the BR version uses Sneak Attack or Stronghold Gambit? Depending on your answer, the choice of the cards to side out would become clearer. :)

[TGCRequiem]

I dunno about 61 card decks. If its accepted that deck thinning due to fetches is negligible, then the additional card should not significantly detract from the deck's consistency. Certain packages of cards may be powerful enough to warrant going over the minimum deck size. I certainly wouldn't say that 61 card decks are out of the question.


Speaking of which, is there any consensus on the fatty selection for UBg? I noticed Sire of Insanity and Archetype of Endurance don't seem to have caught on. Sire of Insanity I understand, as it is only really useful if you power it out on the first turn or two. However the Archetype of Endurance I'd have expected to be more popular against as it helps out some of the bad matches like D&T, and maybe even miracles (Archetype+ Iona on white).

Fetches have zero effect on the 61 card discussion. The discussion is that at any moment in time within a game you could rank the remaining cards in your deck in terms of the card you most likely want to draw. If there are multiples of the best card they would be the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and potentially 4th best draws when the library is ranked out. As an simple example say there are 50 cards remaining in your deck you need a reanimation spell this next draw or you lose the game. You do not have the life to cast Reanimate, are not running Animate Dead and have already lost one Exhume through play. At the time you draw, you then have a 1/50 chance (2%) of drawing any single card. As there are 3 copies of the card you need the odds are (6%) as you essentially would be happy to draw your 1st, 2nd, 3rd best cards in this scenario as they all are Exhume. Now in the same example where you're running a 61st card instead now you are on 1/51 odds or (1.96%) and the odds of drawing 3/51 is down to (5.88%). The point is that the 61st card means that at every draw step from the very first draw step of the game you are ALWAYS minimizing the odds of you drawing the best card you COULD BE drawing. If you run 61 cards, a fetch thinning you from from 50 to 49 cards in the library just means you have 1/49 odds of drawing the single best card where if you had run 60 cards you would have had a better 1/48 odds of drawing the card.

That said I do think toolbox type decks that are very consistent with a lot of interchangeable "like pieces" and have ample ways to Tutor for a single hate card for a very bad matchup they expect to see a lot of might add that 61st card in certain metagames. I think of a deck like Elves when I say that and even there I'm not saying it's right...just that I could see cutting a small percentage against the field to get a consistently higher percentage in that matchup by having an easily tutorable target. I don't think a deck like Reanimator is going to be as consistent as Elves is at getting that specific card they need though and can't image a scenario where 61 is right for Reanimator. Again I'm not confident it's ever right for Elves even.

[owerbart]

I've been trying to test Collective Brutality, but I don't think my 14 lands + 4 petals with G and W in the sideboard can support it that well.

Does anyone has a stable manabase, maybe including petals, to support CB? the card looks pretty good.

[owerbart]

Sadly I think reanimator is declining as an archetype. Nowadays the threats many decks play attack from too many angles and a single "silver bullet" fatty doesn't seem to cut it anymore. Council's judgement, karakas and increasingly maindeck-able grave hate mean that getting off a single reanimate is no longer the blow it used to be. Reanimator will gradually just be a weaker Sneak&Show eventually. But no deck will be as badass as reanimator in my heart and I will never dismantle it!

I believe Reanimator is fine deck, that it's gonna stay as a solid choice with no decline at all. The "maindeck grave hate" is an exageration, only DRS really hurts. I do believe that CB is going to be a huge boost for the deck.

The deck posted a top8 in GPs in three years in a row (2014 Paris, 2015 Seattle, 2016 Columbus)

Reanimator isn't going nowhere.

[Cpt-Qc]

I find that I have to jam my reanimation without having counterspell backup too often..

Would it be a good idea to mainboard some misdirections and if so how many?

Edit: I currently run 4 Forces and 3 Daze main. Thinking of going back to 4 daze or 3 daze + 1 misdirection.

[CabalTherapy]

I played Reanimator in a local yesterday and won it. Nothing special here but I wanted to ask you guys (since I usually play ANT and not R) why there aren't any lists with
Decays main? I had two flex slots (generally the slots where Thoughtseize/Show and Tell comes in I assume) and decided to play 2 Decays because they do exactly what this
deck wants to answer preboard without FoW at hand. Decay > Shaman is so much better than forcing it. Decay also helps against Chalice@1 on the draw against Eldrazi/Loam/whatever.
It's also great against Infect and Delver taking away their clocks. Well, I am sure you guys know about its flexibility. I feel like it's superior to discard and random cards like Izzet Charm and supports the
reanimation plan better than using another angle of attack with SnT. I am certainly no expert but I'd say it's definitely better than "cute" cards like mini Jace.

[Ragdoll]

Has anyone tested Collective Brutality yet? Any thoughts?:smile:

[Fox]

I played Reanimator in a local yesterday and won it. Nothing special here but I wanted to ask you guys (since I usually play ANT and not R) why there aren't any lists with Decays main?
When piloting combo: if you're not winning, you're losing. Having this card in hand/drawing it does not help you win from a goldfish perspective. It is also just a plain dead card against combo (3 most represented archetypes from mtgtop8 in this category are Storm, SnT, and Reanimator). "Bad" cards can always be situationally amazing...but when they're bad, they're awful. You have to really know your local meta to mainboard cards like this and disproportionately get rewarded, because you're losing game 1 win %age when you do it in a general sense.

[CabalTherapy]

When piloting combo: if you're not winning, you're losing. Having this card in hand/drawing it does not help you win from a goldfish perspective. It is also just a plain dead card against combo (3 most represented archetypes from mtgtop8 in this category are Storm, SnT, and Reanimator). "Bad" cards can always be situationally amazing...but when they're bad, they're awful. You have to really know your local meta to mainboard cards like this and disproportionately get rewarded, because you're losing game 1 win %age when you do it in a general sense.

Maybe maybe. But: I regard Reanimator not as a goldfish deck. "When piloting combo: if you're not winning, you're losing." > I don't want to misunderstand you here but an exaggeration would be: "Let us cut discard spells in ANT because they do nothing to for the combo." > Because I don't need discard spells against certain decks. > Then Duress is aweful. Sure. With eight main deck counterspells, I feel like one can "control" the game state quite a bit. I played only two Decays main (two in SB as well) and they help to interact not only on the stack but also disrupt the opponent on the ground. I feel like Deathrite/Chalice/Counterbalance to name a few are too dangerous to let them unchecked or to simply put all the trust in playing around/FoW/Daze.
Of all the decks in Legacy (most known) you just named the two where Decay might be worse than Thoughtseize or other common choices(certainly not worse than SnT against SnT decks). Although even against ANT it might get some utility when they play out their LEDs (which they should). And: There is still Brainstorm. (I know; not the best argument. Don't take it too serious.)
Randomly enought, I won 2-0 against ANT yesterday (player who visits the city, didn't know him) but that's pretty much irrelevant data. :tongue:

In the end, I was just wondering.

[Parcher]

When piloting combo: if you're not winning, you're losing.

"If you a'int first, you're last"

That there phrase is trademarked, not to be used without express written permission of Ricky Bobby, Inc.

[Fox]

The difference with discard is that there are almost no decks out there that throw away their hands and also have no reanimation targets (or inexplicably jam quad Leyline of Sanctity). Also a card like Thoughtseize can be turned against one-self, just as in ANT you will eventually come across the need to strip your own hand with Cabal Therapy to go Hellbent with IT. Mainboard Duress in reanimator is a bit more sketchy even though it keeps up the life total; you use this card and you're signing up for the possibility that it will cost you games. Cards like Izzet Charm and Collective Brutality are safer maindeck options, but cmc/Wasteland susceptibility becomes a concern.

[PirateKing]

Abrupt Decay in the main is a fine meta call, but that's based on your meta. But against an unknown opponent, Thoughtseize will do work more often. It's just less dead.
If you don't have any unknown opponents because it's a small store or you're telepathic, then the math gets all skewed.

An aside; in Reanimator, mana for mana, Izzet Charm does a whole lot more for us than Abrupt Decay. Abrupt Decay is good at what it does, and I'm not advocating it's removal, but examples of G1 Deathrite Shaman as arguments for Abrupt Decay in the main are better served by Izzet Charm.

[CabalTherapy]

An aside; in Reanimator, mana for mana, Izzet Charm does a whole lot more for us than Abrupt Decay. Abrupt Decay is good at what it does, and I'm not advocating it's removal, but examples of G1 Deathrite Shaman as arguments for Abrupt Decay in the main are better served by Izzet Charm.

I understand your points.

Actually, I'd say that it's the other way around in this example because while both being 1/2 oncolour + 1/2 splashcolour cc2 spells, I don't want to fight over my spot removal (No one would play the Charm without leaving mana open for Daze or whatever in a 'regular' scenario or any form of backup plan). Surely, Decay's isn't the best card but theoretically speaking it provides mb outs to cards that are extremly dangerous for Reanimator preboard but then again I am lacking any kind of experience since I've been playing it for the first time this year. (Played it several times last year/years to troll the local guys.) Also played the red version with Charms main and Blast SB > didn't like it.

[KobeBryan]

I understand your points.

Actually, I'd say that it's the other way around in this example because while both being 1/2 oncolour + 1/2 splashcolour cc2 spells, I don't want to fight over my spot removal (No one would play the Charm without leaving mana open for Daze or whatever in a 'regular' scenario or any form of backup plan). Surely, Decay's isn't the best card but theoretically speaking it provides mb outs to cards that are extremly dangerous for Reanimator preboard but then again I am lacking any kind of experience since I've been playing it for the first time this year. (Played it several times last year/years to troll the local guys.) Also played the red version with Charms main and Blast SB > didn't like it.

Izzet charm does more than this collective brutality, being an instant and all.

[PirateKing]

Playing around DRS is a skill that will elevate you as a Reanimator pilot. It's a thorny annoyance, but it's far from a game lock. Bolting the DRS isn't the only way Izzet Charm will beat DRS. Responding to removal with Exhume on the stack with draw & discard is a trick as old as the deck.

[CabalTherapy]

Playing around DRS is a skill that will elevate you as a Reanimator pilot. It's a thorny annoyance, but it's far from a game lock. Bolting the DRS isn't the only way Izzet Charm will beat DRS. Responding to removal with Exhume on the stack with draw & discard is a trick as old as the deck.

Yeah, I know similar interactions from playing TinFins with Entomb/Shallow Grave tricks and the Shaman.
Apart from that, I like it how you guys respond quite fast even when the thread is not the "loudest" on the source.
I might play it on Saturday, again, with Decays and see what's going to happen. My meta is pretty diverse with Delverdecks being the most common, then some midrange stuff, and usually only me playing a combo deck.
= certainly a meta call. I admit.

[meffeo]

I might play it on Saturday

Nice to know that, man. I appreciate.

It seems that the deck is viable even without Show and Tell. Am I completely wrong?

[CabalTherapy]

Nice to know that, man. I appreciate.

It seems that the deck is viable even without Show and Tell. Am I completely wrong?

It won't help you. :cool:

I'd definitely say so.

[Blastoderm]

Show and Tell is there to go above the hate. It's an answer to Leyline of the Void, and very helpful in the Miracles matchup where they have so many decay targets and surgical as well.

[PirateKing]

Show and Tell is by no means a must have, myself and a few others have had success without it. Read back a few pages and I have posts breaking down my dislike for it in this deck. Currently it will probably perform better, without the delve fueled Omniscience decks everywhere, we're not being hit by collateral sideboard hate. Still, not a card I'm running.

[RNGesus]

Well D&T just received awesome new tech (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=1259875). With this tutoring for stuff like Containment Priest and Stonecloaker.... it seems that Reanimator is gonna face tough times ahead... Collective Brutality hasn't seemed to make any splash at all :(

[PirateKing]

I don't know, a 3 mana tutor means you'll see it coming, even in they do try and Vial in their silver bullet it's a slow solution to a fast deck.

[Blastoderm]

Well D&T just received awesome new tech (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=1259875). With this tutoring for stuff like Containment Priest and Stonecloaker.... it seems that Reanimator is gonna face tough times ahead... Collective Brutality hasn't seemed to make any splash at all :(

The card is slow, reanimator is fast. Even show and tell is faster.

Play more Massacre.

[wcm8]

Reanimator has always had access to Dread of Night and Massacre. Just sideboard some hate if D&T is common.

[KobeBryan]

Well D&T just received awesome new tech (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=1259875). With this tutoring for stuff like Containment Priest and Stonecloaker.... it seems that Reanimator is gonna face tough times ahead... Collective Brutality hasn't seemed to make any splash at all :(

Too slow...

[Fox]

I'd be much more concerned about whatever R/W painter decks are called now, the recruiter playset just dropped by ~$2500. Turbo Moon should be much more concerning. Lotus Petals are back in. Aluren is the other thing to consider, but if they're going white...actually that's just strictly better than red. Either way, think about those before DnT; not a bad time to get Tundra. (obviously you can't tutor for a 1/3, but it won't stop people from trying the budget approach)

[Cpt-Qc]

I'd be much more concerned about whatever R/W painter decks are called now, the recruiter playset just dropped by ~$2500. Turbo Moon should be much more concerning. Lotus Petals are back in. Aluren is the other thing to consider, but if they're going white...actually that's just strictly better than red. Either way, think about those before DnT; not a bad time to get Tundra. (obviously you can't tutor for a 1/3, but it won't stop people from trying the budget approach)

Painter and Aluren are not even threats. I wouldn't worry about that... if I can chose between those and a DRS deck, I'd pick those decks in a heartbeat so I would say I'm feeling pretty good about the current meta shift.

On another note, I recently switched from 2 massacre to a 1/1 split with Darkblast. I'm trying some shenanigans with entomb and it hasn't worked as well as I had hoped it would so far. Anyone else tried it?
Also with Prelate and THC being things now, it feels like there's less and less x/1s in white decks. I've used darkblast to get rid of those but it just feels much slower and clunkier than it should be.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Painter can turn 2 you and if it's the blue red one they can do it after stopping you. I think its a mistake to ignore it since the new tutor was printed, and that made imperials drop in price, and im pretty sure they havent dropped to their lowest point yet. Aluren will be a lot better than it was, but DnT will give it lots of problems, so I don't think it will stick around as any kind of player in the top or middle tiers of the meta. I think reanimator is actually on its way out, to be honest.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[Cpt-Qc]

Painter can turn 2 you and if it's the blue red one they can do it after stopping you. I think its a mistake to ignore it since the new tutor was printed, and that made imperials drop in price, and im pretty sure they havent dropped to their lowest point yet. Aluren will be a lot better than it was, but DnT will give it lots of problems, so I don't think it will stick around as any kind of player in the top or middle tiers of the meta. I think reanimator is actually on its way out, to be honest.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

With all due respect, I don't believe the deck is going anywhere.

With WoTc's policy of printing ever more powerful creatures, it's just a matter of time before they fuck up and we can abuse one of their creations ;).

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

As long as t2 Griselbrand is viable in the format, Reanimator will be here to stay, so unless the game power creeps to unplayable levels, reanimator will be a thing.

[RNGesus]

With all due respect, I don't believe the deck is going anywhere.

With WoTc's policy of printing ever more powerful creatures, it's just a matter of time before they fuck up and we can abuse one of their creations ;).

The creatures are getting powered up by becoming leaner, meaner and cheaper though. The whole point of reanimating a game-ending creature in the first three turns is sort of lost when opposing decks can play their own game-ending creatures in the early game without jumping through hoops and risking getting blown out by GY hate.

[Ling]

Hi everyone!,

I have a (stupid?) question. Would it make any difference if I play this deck with the U/G and U/B shocklands instead of duals? I do not have them and I, nowadays, don´t fancy spending loads of money on them

Thanks a million

[Cuddlecow]

If I recall correctly people said it's fairly OK with shock duals, at least that's what I`d say.

But here's something for you to think about. Bear with me and follow my idea for a min.

Let's say we play a list with five finishers - when would extra finishers be good?
If we have
a) Entomb in hand
we would much rather have a thought seize in hand than a finisher
b) already have a finisher in hand, I mean we have five
we would much rather have a TS or cantrip than a second finisher the majority of the time
c) If we don't have careful study in hand
most of the time we want anything but a finisher

What I mean to say is - what are all those finishers good for? I know, you're thinking now - well, I need enough finishers to make careful study work.
My point is: How often do you have it? 40-50% of the time.
How often do you have it without already having a finisher in hand? 20-25%
How often do you have it without already having a finisher in hand and without having entomb? 10-15%

Of course missing a finisher costs games. My point is missing a thought seize or cantrip costs way more games. For me it mathematically makes no sense to play so many finishers. The situation everyone seems to fantasize about doesn't happen much!
Let's say the 15% dream scenario happens. We are still not guaranteed to hold a finisher now if we pack two extra, because with two extra we have like 20% chance to hold one of them!
Think honestly. What do you want them for? As a silverbullet they have nice value. On the other hand, if we discard a random fatty that is not Griselbrand because we can play just four of those, the price for our silverbullet is we discard weak creatures in many of our matches because only Grisel works nearly all the time.

The price is just so very high. Imagine we have entomb. How much rather would I have a thoughtseize or a cantrip than a finisher now. Isn't the awesomeness of reanimator it's an easy two-card combo, why dilute it so hard just to add an extra 5-10% combo potential instead of just adding TS and cantrips?

[Cpt-Qc]

Hi everyone!,

I have a (stupid?) question. Would it make any difference if I play this deck with the U/G and U/B shocklands instead of duals? I do not have them and I, nowadays, don´t fancy spending loads of money on them

Thanks a million

Reanimator is probably one of the decks that cares the least about playing shocks in legacy. I used to do it for a long time before I got my duals and it only ever was important once. The only scenario where it matters is having a starting hand with 1 fetch, 1 daze, 1 reanimate and the creature targeted being griselbrand (fetch -1, shock -2, using an enabler, dazing T1 play, replaying shock -2, reanimate -8, griselbrand -7). Having a dual lets you do all this with 4 life left so you're able to take 1 hit from any T1 creature and defend with force of will.

I would say playing with shocks is perfectly fine as if you have 2 lands hands you are probably fetching 2 basics anyway.


If I recall correctly people said it's fairly OK with shock duals, at least that's what I`d say.

But here's something for you to think about. Bear with me and follow my idea for a min.

Let's say we play a list with five finishers - when would extra finishers be good?
If we have
a) Entomb in hand
we would much rather have a thought seize in hand than a finisher
b) already have a finisher in hand, I mean we have five
we would much rather have a TS or cantrip than a second finisher the majority of the time
c) If we don't have careful study in hand
most of the time we want anything but a finisher

What I mean to say is - what are all those finishers good for? I know, you're thinking now - well, I need enough finishers to make careful study work.
My point is: How often do you have it? 40-50% of the time.
How often do you have it without already having a finisher in hand? 20-25%
How often do you have it without already having a finisher in hand and without having entomb? 10-15%

Of course missing a finisher costs games. My point is missing a thought seize or cantrip costs way more games. For me it mathematically makes no sense to play so many finishers. The situation everyone seems to fantasize about doesn't happen much!
Let's say the 15% dream scenario happens. We are still not guaranteed to hold a finisher now if we pack two extra, because with two extra we have like 20% chance to hold one of them!
Think honestly. What do you want them for? As a silverbullet they have nice value. On the other hand, if we discard a random fatty that is not Griselbrand because we can play just four of those, the price for our silverbullet is we discard weak creatures in many of our matches because only Grisel works nearly all the time.

The price is just so very high. Imagine we have entomb. How much rather would I have a thoughtseize or a cantrip than a finisher now. Isn't the awesomeness of reanimator it's an easy two-card combo, why dilute it so hard just to add an extra 5-10% combo potential instead of just adding TS and cantrips?

What exactly do you categorize as a "finisher"?

If you mean creatures, then the need to have a few is to be able to toolbox for the right one. Unlike storm decks, reanimator is not guaranteed to win when going off. If you don't have the right creature, you could have wasted 2-3 cards.

Also, although this is not the primary use for it, careful study acts as a pseudo cantrip so having stuff to discard can actually be an advantage if you want to find permission while you combo.

[Stryfo]

@Cuddlecow, I haven't run the math on that particular case, so I don't know the actual difference in percentages, but I claim it doesn't really matter.

Let's create a five creature set for our deck:

3 Griselbrand
1 Elesh
1 Iona

We need to maximize our griselbrand count for careful study (it's not creature count we (I?) care about for study, but griselbrand count) while also having creatures that are situationally strong. I'd argue that this deck is fundamentally weaker against nonblue decks as a whole, since a lot of nonblue decks have access to problem lands like karakas or maze of ith or thespian depths. There are so many matchups that swing wildly with the addition of tidespout tyrant, DnT, lands, GWx, are all made much easier when tidespout tyrant exists in the deck. You can add tidespout, but then you're giving up on free wins against elves and dredge (cut elesh), or burn and combo (cut Iona).

I personally run 7 creatures (though I frequently board down to 6):

3 Griselbrand
1 Elesh
1 Tidespout
1 Archetype of Endurance
1 Jin-Gitaxias

I agree that running the minimum number of creatures is in some sense optimal. We want to run as few creatures as we can to plug as many holes as possible, and in my personal construction of the deck, my creature choices also reflect 75 card deck building rather than 60, so I'd advise you to think ahead to sideboarded games as well when choosing what creatures you want.

[Cpt-Qc]

For reference, my creature suite is composed of:
-3 griselbrand (catch all, great in unknown matchup)
-Iona (for combo or mono colored decks)
-Elesh (for aggro/swarm decks)
-Tidespout (for prison decks and karakas decks)
-Grave Titan (for edict decks and karakaa dexks)

This way I have options against most decks g1. Of course you can drop/replace one or two of those for your meta.

Running 6 would be better but would concede to some matchups which I dont like as if we dont win G1 we are in trouble.

[Ling]

Reanimator is probably one of the decks that cares the least about playing shocks in legacy. I used to do it for a long time before I got my duals and it only ever was important once. The only scenario where is matters is having a starting hand with 1 fetch, 1 daze, 1 reanimate and the creature targeted being griselbrand (fetch -1, shock -2, using en enabler, dazing T1 play, replaying shock -2, reanimate -8, griselbrand -7). Having a dual lets you do all this with 4 life left so you're able to take 1 hit from any T1 creature and defend with force of will.

I would say playing with shocks is perfectly fine as if you have 2 lands hands you are probably fetching 2 basics anyway.



What exactly do you categorize as a "finisher"?

If you mean creatures, then the need to have a few is to be able to toolbox for the right one. Unlike storm decks, reanimator is not guaranteed to win when going off. If you don't have the right creature, you could have wasted 2-3 cards.

Also, although this is not the primary use for it, careful study acts as a pseudo cantrip so having stuff to discard can actually be an advantage if you want to find permission while you combo.

Thanks a lot mate!!
I'll play it with shocks until I got my duals


Enviado desde mi iPhone con Tapatalk

[Cpt-Qc]

My pleasure and welcome to the original cheater's deck! :cool:

[DoorDie]

The creatures are getting powered up by becoming leaner, meaner and cheaper though. The whole point of reanimating a game-ending creature in the first three turns is sort of lost when opposing decks can play their own game-ending creatures in the early game without jumping through hoops and risking getting blown out by GY hate.

We're a long ways from fair decks casting a 7/7 lifelinking flyer in even 5 turns.

And let's not forget we're reanimating the only legal Necro variant, which is the real reason he's the most powerful target.

I do think 4 Grisel is too much, but the toolbox creatures will pull you out of a lot of situations. I don't know that there's any real math that can encapsulate such things, other than just statistically counting how often you use each one. Anecdotal, but if you know you never Entomb for it's probably bad maindeck (or bad period).

[Cpt-Qc]

We're a long ways from fair decks casting a 7/7 lifelinking flyer in even 5 turns.

And let's not forget we're reanimating the only legal Necro variant, which is the real reason he's the most powerful target.

I do think 4 Grisel is too much, but the toolbox creatures will pull you out of a lot of situations. I don't know that there's any real math that can encapsulate such things, other than just statistically counting how often you use each one. Anecdotal, but if you know you never Entomb for it's probably bad maindeck (or bad period).

The main reason I don't run 4 griselbrand is I hate getting surgicaled and losing 4 creatures... feels so bad... at least now I still have 4 creatures to look for.

[DoorDie]

The main reason I don't run 4 griselbrand is I hate getting surgicaled and losing 4 creatures... feels so bad... at least now I still have 4 creatures to look for.

I also hate opening with double Griselbrand. I mean, I like him but not THAT much.

[CovenantElite30]

I'm looking to possibly put this deck together. I really like the lists that include Show and Tell, I would really like to run 2 in the main and 2 in the side. Do you guys have any updated lists I could work off of?

Thank you.

[wcm8]

Has anyone ever tested running Intuition in this deck, perhaps at 1-2 copies?

In the abstract, it seems quite powerful in being able to grab whatever card you need for the given game-state (including counterspells, discard, and/or sideboard hate when needed), and at the minimum it can function as a pseudo-Buried Alive. It's 'Awesome' thanks to having :u: in its cost, which is always a welcome aspect.

Some of the obvious down-sides:
1. Yes, 3 mana is quite expensive, but it is an Instant that could be cast at the end of an opponent's turn after the initial first few land drops that could yield a win out of seemingly nowhere.
2. Surgical Extraction is a beating against it, but then again that card is a beating against Reanimator.dec to begin with. If you suspect your opponent to be holding Extraction, you would simply just not tutor for anything too critical.

I realize that Show and Tell decks have an easier time casting Intuition thanks to playing Sol lands, but it just seems like such an absurdly powerful spell that could slot into UBx Reanimator just as easily, perhaps with a few additional land slots. Just wondering if anyone has tested this card lately.

[DoorDie]

I've goldfished Intuition, and unfortunately yes it's about a turn too slow. It's the setup card, so you have to durdle until turn 3 or add in acceleration just for this card. A standard build will reliably combo out by T3 without acceleration.

I'd love to brew a Slow Reanimator with Intuition and/or Buried Alive just for the shiggles because those cards are sweet.

[Cpt-Qc]

I'm looking to possibly put this deck together. I really like the lists that include Show and Tell, I would really like to run 2 in the main and 2 in the side. Do you guys have any updated lists I could work off of?

Thank you.

That's my list atm. Note that I did not join the abrupt decay hype as I prefer to stay on basics in most of my games and I lack a trop.

I'm also testing a darkblast in the side instead of the second massacre and a fifth Force of Will.
There are enough flex slots to be able to shape the deck however is best for your meta.

Creature (10)

1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Grave Titan
3x Griselbrand
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
3x Putrid Imp
1x Tidespout Tyrant

Instant (16)

4x Brainstorm
3x Daze
4x Entomb
4x Force of Will
1x Misdirection

Land (15)

2x Bloodstained Mire
2x Flooded Strand
1x Island
4x Polluted Delta
2x Swamp
4x Underground Sea

Sorcery (16)

4x Careful Study
4x Exhume
2x Ponder
4x Reanimate
2x Show and Tell

Artifact (3)

3x Lotus Petal

Sideboard (15)

1x Ashen Rider
1x Blazing Archon
1x Darkblast
2x Echoing Truth
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Inkwell Leviathan
1x Massacre
2x Pithing Needle
1x Show and Tell
3x Thoughtseize



Has anyone ever tested running Intuition in this deck, perhaps at 1-2 copies?

In the abstract, it seems quite powerful in being able to grab whatever card you need for the given game-state (including counterspells, discard, and/or sideboard hate when needed), and at the minimum it can function as a pseudo-Buried Alive. It's 'Awesome' thanks to having :u: in its cost, which is always a welcome aspect.

Some of the obvious down-sides:
1. Yes, 3 mana is quite expensive, but it is an Instant that could be cast at the end of an opponent's turn after the initial first few land drops that could yield a win out of seemingly nowhere.
2. Surgical Extraction is a beating against it, but then again that card is a beating against Reanimator.dec to begin with. If you suspect your opponent to be holding Extraction, you would simply just not tutor for anything too critical.

I realize that Show and Tell decks have an easier time casting Intuition thanks to playing Sol lands, but it just seems like such an absurdly powerful spell that could slot into UBx Reanimator just as easily, perhaps with a few additional land slots. Just wondering if anyone has tested this card lately.

I find that even 2 cc is to slow for an enabler. I would rather keep as little 3 cc as possible (I would definitely maindeck Pithing Needles or go back to Animate Dead instead of SnT if it wasn't for my meta which requires it main).

[CovenantElite30]

That's my list atm. Note that I did not join the abrupt decay hype as I prefer to stay on basics in most of my games and I lack a trop.

I'm also testing a darkblast in the side instead of the second massacre and a fifth Force of Will.
There are enough flex slots to be able to shape the deck however is best for your meta.

Creature (10)

1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Grave Titan
3x Griselbrand
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
3x Putrid Imp
1x Tidespout Tyrant

Instant (16)

4x Brainstorm
3x Daze
4x Entomb
4x Force of Will
1x Misdirection

Land (15)

2x Bloodstained Mire
2x Flooded Strand
1x Island
4x Polluted Delta
2x Swamp
4x Underground Sea

Sorcery (16)

4x Careful Study
4x Exhume
2x Ponder
4x Reanimate
2x Show and Tell

Artifact (3)

3x Lotus Petal

Sideboard (15)

1x Ashen Rider
1x Blazing Archon
1x Darkblast
2x Echoing Truth
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Inkwell Leviathan
1x Massacre
2x Pithing Needle
1x Show and Tell
3x Thoughtseize




I find that even 2 cc is to slow for an enabler. I would rather keep as little 3 cc as possible (I would definitely maindeck Pithing Needles or go back to Animate Dead instead of SnT if it wasn't for my meta which requires it main).
Thanks for the list, appreciate it!

Quick question why not play 4 lotus petals and 4 Dazes? I feel like you want turn 1 renanimate as often as possible which lotus petal does. Also it hedges against Blood moon which can completely shut off the deck. As for a 4th daze, having ad many counter spells as possible seems to be great in this deck, no?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N930A using Tapatalk

[Cpt-Qc]

Thanks for the list, appreciate it!

Quick question why not play 4 lotus petals and 4 Dazes? I feel like you want turn 1 renanimate as often as possible which lotus petal does. Also it hedges against Blood moon which can completely shut off the deck. As for a 4th daze, having ad many counter spells as possible seems to be great in this deck, no?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N930A using Tapatalk

3 petals is pretty much the norm as if you don't have it early you don't want to mana flood (this deck can operate on a single land pretty easily). Don't forget this is not the B/R version: we don't need to go off T1. We usually go off T2-3 more reliably even tho those petals allow the occasional T1.

Some people play 4 dazes, I just find that the card is so dead if you don't have it in your opener that I would rather have a fifth force (which will do pretty much the same thing).

Also Blood moon is way too slow to matter against reanimator. By the time it's out you either have permission or you've gone off already.
I doubt anyone sides it against us (nobody ever did against me) but if they do I'm actually fine with it since we can either shred it with thoughtseize or counterspell it or as you said power through with petals.

[CovenantElite30]

Creature (10)

1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Grave Titan
3x Griselbrand
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
3x Putrid Imp
1x Tidespout Tyrant

Instant (16)

4x Brainstorm
3x Daze
4x Entomb
4x Force of Will
1x Misdirection

Land (15)

2x Bloodstained Mire
2x Flooded Strand
1x Island
4x Polluted Delta
2x Swamp
4x Underground Sea

Sorcery (16)

4x Careful Study
4x Exhume
2x Ponder
4x Reanimate
2x Show and Tell

Artifact (3)

3x Lotus Petal

Sideboard (15)

1x Ashen Rider
1x Blazing Archon
1x Darkblast
2x Echoing Truth
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Inkwell Leviathan
1x Massacre
2x Pithing Needle
1x Show and Tell
3x Thoughtseize


Another question why Putrid Imp over Hapless Researcher ? Isn't having more blue cards to pitch to Force of Will better?