Trigger Policy + Mindslaver

[Tammit67]

If I Mindslaver my opponent, am I responsible for all of the triggers generated by his cards for the turn? If, say, my opponent is on dredge and I sacrifice a creature to Cabal Therapy with Bridge from Below in the graveyard, need my opponent demonstrate awareness of the trigger for it to happen, or do I need to show awareness for it to happen?

[HammafistRoob]

Bridge from Below has a mandatory trigger. Both players are responsible for keeping track of all possible triggers.

[Tammit67]

Bridge from Below has a mandatory trigger. Both players are responsible for keeping track of all possible triggers.

That is not in line with the most recent trigger policy, where you no longer have to remind your opponent of any triggers they control. You are allowed to let them forget, mandatory or not. Hence my question.

EDIT: For clarity, I know that if my dredge opponent is not under mindslaver, i need not remind him to but a 2/2 zombie into play. I don't know if I have to remind him if I am making all the decisions for his turn, however.

[Kich867]

That is not in line with the most recent trigger policy, where you no longer have to remind your opponent of any triggers they control. You are allowed to let them forget, mandatory or not. Hence my question.

EDIT: For clarity, I know that if my dredge opponent is not under mindslaver, i need not remind him to but a 2/2 zombie into play. I don't know if I have to remind him if I am making all the decisions for his turn, however.

In my experience this isn't true. I missed a Bob trigger in tournament. Someone called a judge on me (in fact, it was my opponent's friend who was spectating the game trying to give his opponent an edge). The judge gave my opponent a warning for failing to maintain the game state. (I got a warning as well)

[Tammit67]

In my experience this isn't true. I missed a Bob trigger in tournament. Someone called a judge on me (in fact, it was my opponent's friend who was spectating the game trying to give his opponent an edge). The judge gave my opponent a warning for failing to maintain the game state. (I got a warning as well)

Neither of you should have received a warning in this instance. Bob's trigger is the reason why you play the card: therefore it is a beneficial trigger. Players do not receive warnings for beneficial triggers and whether a trigger is beneficial or not is not game state dependent.

I am sorry you got a ruling from a judge who is not entirely up to date with the rules policy.

Toby here (http://blogs.magicjudges.org/telliott/2013/02/03/missed-triggers-3-the-bonus-disc/) goes over everything VERY well, I suggest you read it. Specifically

'The controller of a missed triggered ability receives a Warning only if the triggered ability is usually considered detrimental for the controlling player.'

This is a wording change from “generally detrimental”, which had a little more ambiguity than we were comfortable with, but it doesn’t actually change anything. The idea is that in most common game situations, this is a trigger you’d be happier not having resolve. Intuitively, that makes sense from a Warning standpoint. Yes, there are strange situations where you might benefit from your Vampire Lacerator, but realistically, that’s a card players want judges keeping an eye on. “Generally detrimental” was supposed to imply that there could be downsides to the ability but, on balance, you wanted it to happen. Instead we focus on what the expectation would be in a normal game.

'The current game state is not a factor in determining this, though symmetrical abilities (such as Howling Mine) may be considered usually detrimental or not depending on who is being affected.'

[Koby]

Mindslaver says: "you control target player's turn"
Therefore, your opponent's trigger are now controlled by you.

You get the missed trigger warnings.

Simple, and elegant.

[Tammit67]

Mindslaver says: "you control target player's turn"
Therefore, your opponent's trigger are now controlled by you.

You get the missed trigger warnings.

Simple, and elegant.
Quote from gatherer:

10/4/2004 Only lets you make decisions that the player would actually make. If another effect allows another player to make decisions that would normally be made by that player, such as having another player decide how combat damage is dealt, then the other effect takes precedence.

12/1/2004 You don't control any of the other player's permanents, spells, or abilities.

My only issue with your response is the 'rulings' from gatherer. I do not control their triggers.

[Koby]

This is much more complicated than I initially thought then.

Thanks MaRo and your clever cards. :shrug:

[Arsenal]

Since a triggered ability would fall under the "abilities" category, then can you "game" your opponent into getting a Warning for not keeping track of his triggers, even though you're controlling his turn via Mindslaver?

[Tammit67]

This is much more complicated than I initially thought then.

Thanks MaRo and your clever cards. :shrug:

Yeah, being a L1 let's me answer most of these pretty easily myself. It's only these really weird interactions with fringe problem cards like slaver that I need to double check myself. (I can check their sideboard? What?)

[Koby]

Figured it was worth noting here. Game state information is also yours. Because you can check sideboards, if you say "Let me see your sideboard" they CAN'T concede in response. Just something to note.

This is factually wrong. You can concede at anytime for any reason. There is nothing "quicker" in the game rules.

12/1/2004: You can't make the other player concede. A player can choose to concede at any time.

[Technics]

I was explained that is actually false. Players are required to reveal all game state information. They are not allowed to draw a card, look at it and concede before showing you. It's the same circumstance. I believe it works this was on MOTO as well, although I am looking for an official ruling.

[cdr]

A player being controlled still controls his own triggers and is responsible for them. He cannot intentionally "forget" any trigger even if it would be bad for him (to intentionally miss your triggers is Cheating). If he unintentionally misses a trigger, you can choose whether to let it pass or to call a judge and make the trigger happen. You cannot attempt to "game" him into missing triggers by not giving him enough time to notice or acknowledge the triggers.

[cdr]

I was explained that is actually false. Players are required to reveal all game state information. They are not allowed to draw a card, look at it and concede before showing you. It's the same circumstance. I believe it works this was on MOTO as well, although I am looking for an official ruling.

It's true that they can't concede before showing a drawn card, because it is visible to everyone the rules say it is visible to the moment it's drawn. The sideboard is a different matter; the Tournament Rules are what allow you to look at it, and they can concede when the request is made.

[Tammit67]

A player being controlled still controls his own triggers and is responsible for them. He cannot intentionally "forget" any trigger even if it would be bad for him (to intentionally miss your triggers is Cheating). If he unintentionally misses a trigger, you can choose whether to let it pass or to call a judge and make the trigger happen. You cannot attempt to "game" him into missing triggers by not giving him enough time to notice or acknowledge the triggers.

Thanks Chuck!

[NesretepNoj]

A player being controlled still controls his own triggers and is responsible for them. He cannot intentionally "forget" any trigger even if it would be bad for him (to intentionally miss your triggers is Cheating). If he unintentionally misses a trigger, you can choose whether to let it pass or to call a judge and make the trigger happen. You cannot attempt to "game" him into missing triggers by not giving him enough time to notice or acknowledge the triggers.

This might be a silly question (or even answered already), but say that I've resolved Mindslaver against my opponent who is playing Dredge. If I use his turn to flashback a Cabal Therapy and he has some bridges in the graveyard, how long time do I have to give my opponent to acknowledge the triggers before I can name a card and thereby hopefully make him miss some triggers. This would probably be a bad play, but I'm just curious.

[cdr]

This might be a silly question (or even answered already), but say that I've resolved Mindslaver against my opponent who is playing Dredge. If I use his turn to flashback a Cabal Therapy and he has some bridges in the graveyard, how long time do I have to give my opponent to acknowledge the triggers before I can name a card and thereby hopefully make him miss some triggers. This would probably be a bad play, but I'm just curious.

The same as any other trigger; some indication they are OK with the spell resolving or a period of time long enough that it's clear they are not aware of the trigger. You can force the issue by asking something like "OK?" after casting the spell, but this may tip them off, I don't know.