[Primer/Deck] Burn

[looreenzoo]

Taiga and Revelry is to stop game 1 Chalice of the Void and just in case someone is running a problematic enchantment.
There are far more decks NOT playing Chalice than decks playing Chalice, so most of the times Destructive Revelry is a total blank that you cannot Brainstorm away.

[Kozilek]

Is Ghirapur Orrery playable in the board for the really grindy matches? I realize it's four mana, but if we can get it down against miracles it lets us really overtax a countertop, or dig for our uncounterable stuff. Might be a bit out there. Thoughts?

[Koby]

Vexing Shusher seems better than Orerry, or its ilk. Resolving the good spells is far better than trying to overpower cards theough expensive cards.

[Speedbump]

Is Ghirapur Orrery playable in the board for the really grindy matches? I realize it's four mana, but if we can get it down against miracles it lets us really overtax a countertop, or dig for our uncounterable stuff. Might be a bit out there. Thoughts?It's just not going to happen against Miracles.

Burn, in general, is not in the market for this type of effect. Burn cares more about card consistency, or resolving their spells.

[Ultrab77]

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30931-Bedlam-Burn&p=966577&viewfull=1#post966577

lost handily to jund (0-2) and burn (0-2), then some really close games lost to miracles (1-2), and dredge (1-2). beat esperblade (2-0), BR reanimator (2-0), infect (2-0), storm (2-0), and painter (2-0). (all not necessarily in that order)

full report on other thread.

-rob

How did you find Blood Moon? Does it deserve its slot?

[Krimson Viper]

I also run 2x Firecraft main, and I love it. I still run Swiftspears, the Firecrafts replaced 2x Vortex.
I don't see 3x Ensnaring Bridge to be a concession to Reanimator. Their GY doesn't matter if they can't attack you, and they won't be digging for answers to it with Griselbrand, even if they didn't take the life hit from Reanimate.
I'm not a big fan of Bridge against Reanimator. Iona kills everything we do and we have no out and they can bounce Bridge as Reanimator still runs some number of a bounce spell. Burn doesn't want to be in the long game and all you really need is for them to hiccup once and the game could be yours. Faerie Macabre, Crypt, Extraction are my choices for grave hate.

I'm trying out Top, so with Top allowing myself to manipulate my draws, I cut a land for it. I think this might be a bad play as it is a little bit of a mana sink since I can see having two lands in play, draw Top cast it and find nothing, but two mana spells and lethal on board. I dunno, we will see. I like being able to cast spells and not be screwed.

I am also trying out Swiftspear for the very first time. I've always preferred Lavamancer, but I see that Swiftspear hedges the Miracles match up. Speaking of the Miracles match up, I am thinking of cutting a PoP for Barbarian Ring. That's something I am more than willing to do, because it gives me my twentieth land and for sure damage against counter decks. Also, Lavamancer is no longer an edge against Death and Taxes because I have been Revoked on it so many feel bad times.

I am running Sudden Shock for Infect and Infect alone. I know that there are multiple Infect decks in the meta I'm going into as well as some Aluren decks. It's one of the few removal damage spells that actually affects both decks and a great trump card on them.

I really like Lyle Hopkins point about Smash against equipment decks and Chalices. I'm down to just four creature Searing effects and up to four equipment Searing effects.


My deck I plan on running if I actually play this Sunday. I decided to put Shardless away and play with my true love<3

4 Goblin Guide
3 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Searing Blaze
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
2 Exquisite Firecraft
3 Fireblast

11 red Fetches
8 Mountain

Sideboard
2 Tormod's Crypt (might become Faerie Macabre)
2 Grim Lavamancer (might become Pyrostatic Pillar)
2 Pithing Needle
1 Surgical Extraction
4 Smash to Smithereens
2 Sudden Shock
2 Exquisite Firecraft

I am on the fence about Pyrostatic Pillar. Storm decks seem to be on the decline a lot and I can't remember what else it is good against. Delver, sure, but I only like Pillar effects on the play and not on the draw and even then, I'm not a fan of hurting myself in certain Delver positions. What else is pillar good against?

[Krimson Viper]

Went X-3 at the CFB Legacy today playing a different list than I posted. Missed pay out by placing twentieth. Fun tournament and I'm still a decent pilot for the deck and I think this deck is well positioned in my area to really wreak havoc. Bad tournament report when I make it home later today!

List:
4 Goblin Guide
3 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

1 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Chain Lightning
3 Searing Blaze
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
2 Exquisite Firecraft
3 Fireblast

4 Windswept Heath
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
1 Barbarian Ring
8 Mountain

Sideboard
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Searing Blaze
4 Smash to Smithereens
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Exquisite Firecraft
1 Mindbreak Trap

Grixis Delver - Win 2-1
Sideboard: I put in two Firecrafts and the extra Blaze, I removed three Goblin Guides.

Only note to take from this was that he decided to counter my Top in game three. I didn't play a land when I cast it, making him believe I needed land. Played a land after and proceeded to beat with spells. Two Firecraft, a Barbarian Ring, and Fireblast destroyed him. He was a solid player though. If he suspected the Barbarian Ring, I'm sure he would have played a little differently. In game one he had all the counterspells and ran with Gurmag Angler. I can't really remember game two, but I suspect I just ran him over with nothing to note.

Shardless BUG - Loss 2-1
Sideboard: I side boarded just like the previous match in our game one, but in game three I put in two Smash and two Pithing Needle and removed the three Swiftspear and the last Guide
Regarding my sideboard, I usually put in some number of Smash against this deck, but I have been sideboarding incorrectly for this match up, which explains why I keep losing to this deck. I'll get into this further at a later match up from today

Game one he ran with Deathrite Shaman and had three Forces for all of my kill spells. Game two I ran him over fairly easily with creature beats and some Firecrafts. Game three I mulled down to five and kept a single land hand. He ran away with the game with Goyf, Lili, and Agent. Really wish I wasn't mana screwed here. I know my first hand was no land, second hand too much land. That's probably something I should have kept because I faintly remember Eidolon hanging out there. I just didn't want to chance it with drawing duds in the form of more lands. I also sideboarded incorrectly. I didn't know what he was after game one and suspected he was Grixis Delver. After finding out what he was, I re-boarded.

Grixis Delver - Win 2-0
Sideboard: Same as match one.

Nothing special here, move along. I don't even remember this match in its entirety, but apparently it happened according to my match notes.

Lands - Win 2-1
Sideboard: I put in Pithing Needle and two Firecraft. I thought about using some grave hate, but quickly dismissed it. There's such a small chance that it will matter since the problem will be on the table already. I took out Blaze and a Mountain.

Nothing special to note here. I put Needle here to combat a possible Zuran Orb and stop the combo. Neither mattered and nothing really noted here, other than my stupidity that I waited for him to tap out of green for fear of Crop Rotation, but he had a Chalice out on one. I face palmed myself pretty readily after I decided to go for it when he tapped out green. I asked why did he tap out for green when he didn't need it. Pointed to the Chalice. Boy, this is what happens when you don't play Magic in awhile.

Shardless BUG - Win 2-1
Sideboard: In two Firecraft and the singleton Blaze, and removed three Guides. I decided to go this route for once because I felt like I kept having artifact hate in hand and dying. I hesitated taking out Guides and bringing in Firecraft. Reason being is Hymn kills my hand sometimes before I get Firecraft. I am thinking maybe I take out Fireblast for the extra Firecraft and keep the Guides? I know I want to race, but I know Guide isn't a great top deck. Neither is Swiftspear, but I considered removing Guide because Brainstorming a land onto the top of the deck in reponse to the Guide trigger and I can grow Swiftspear above an Agent and keep the beats the following turn.

Nothing to note about this game, other than I roll him over in games two and three after a Deathrite and Goyf beat in game one. The deck felt more streamlined in this form and the greed was gone from wanting to two for one the opponent.

Miracles - Loss 2-1
Sideboard: I took out Prices and two Blaze, for two Needle, two Smash, and two Firecraft.

He was paired up and a very good pilot because he was paired up all day as told by him. He looks tired and I know what he's on and saw how well he played the round before. I'm hoping he makes mistakes and he doesn't. Shit. I hate this match up and I've only beaten it once in my life. Game one I beat in with Swiftspear a couple of times off of countered spells, and get there with four Rift Bolts that were never countered and finished him with Firecraft. Game two he has early Counter-Top lock and I have a slow death from Clique beats. Game three I have single land for two turns and I open up with Needle and Smash in hand. I keep playing this cat and mouse game with this two card combo and this is the final time I play it. Just going to bring in Needle and Firecraft next time. I feel like this deck needs more higher costing spells that Miracles can't really answer in the Counter-Top lock.

Eldrazi - Loss 2-1
Sideboard: I took out Guide and Eidolon for four Smash, two Firecraft, and two Needle.

I've never played against this deck a day in my life, but he has a nut draw with that 5/5 trample haste, and Jitte. GG one. Game two I kill on turn three with a pair of Swiftspears, Lava Spike, and Smash. Game three he drops a Basilisk Collar and I have Needle in hand. I keep thinking I'll have time to drop Needle to surprise him, but that bites me in the ass as I didn't realize how explosive Eldrazi is. Also, I kept a one land hand with a variety of spell costs. Probably going to be the last time I keep a sketch hand like that as well. He beats my face in, needless to say.

What to take away from this tournament? I don't like Top in this deck. At the very least, it doesn't fit my playstyle for the deck in the slightest. Everytime I had it, I was disappointed by it. There's probably a learning curve to playing it in the deck, but I'm not going to take the time to find it while I have other iterations to play with and test, plus I don't play nearly enough to care about it. Swiftspear is a lot better than I thought and I take back alot of the bad stuff I've said about it. Would I replace Guide with it? Hell no! This deck needs hasty aggressive beaters, but I do think in different circumstances the deck can survive with one or the other. I don't think Grim is a card for the deck right now. Maybe if Elves comes back, but Delver and D&T probably just don't care for it. I didn't miss him all day. I do like Ring. Didn't hamper me at all. Plenty of other lands I played while sandbagging it in hand. I don't believe I would go beyond a singleton though. I don't like my chances of having two and the bad that can come along with it.

Once again, my worry about Storm variants goes checked. Didn't see it and many people I've talked to about it say that very few play it if they even show up to tournaments. I can think of maybe three players total I've seen play it over my course of two and a half years of playing locally. Of course, I always come across the same Storm player whenever he's attending the same tournament as me. Never fails, plus he hasn't failed to combo out on me at most turn two every time we play against each other. I think if I don't see these players, I will gladly forego the Storm hate out of my side for other spells I could use. Cards I never sided in all tournament: Crypt, Macabre, Pillar, and Trap, though there were at least two Dredge players there. Dredge always seems to wade at the tournaments, so I see you Dredgers.

[Krimson Viper]

There, I'm done editing that last post of mine.

[Krimson Viper]

Played a small, nine man tournament yesterday placing third with a bye. Not much to report about it, but I ended up with a question regarding the Merfolk match up; which was my loss. How is this match up approached? With their counters and Aether Vial, I imagine this race is in their favor. Besides artifact hate and Pithing Needle, what do you do against them? I ended up bringing in two Firecraft, Searing Blaze, four Smash. I probably should have brought in Pithing Needle, but I figured it was a race. I probably had a couple of mistakes as well, one of them being trying to Smash his untapped Vial on one and one Cursecatcher in play already.

My list for this tournament. I haven't been here in awhile, but I knew of two Miracles players, some BUG colored gents, and the rest was generally unknown to me.

4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
3 Searing Blaze
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
2 Exquisite Firecraft
3 Fireblast

11 Fetches
8 Mountain
1 Barbarian Ring

Sideboard
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
1 Shattering Spree
2 Vexing Shusher
1 Searing Blaze
4 Smash to Smithereens
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Exquisite Firecraft

[Brael]

Merfolk is a matchup where you need to burn some creatures. Because they're all lords, their board presence grows exponentially. Killing the first lord will save you a full turn on the race but you still need some quality.

[Brael]

This is going to sound completely off the wall, but has anyone ever tried Scab-Clan Berserker? For the past couple months I've been thinking about what my simulator showed (no, I won't be posting a bunch more results) that if you were to tier our cards, Mountain and Eidolon are tier 0, while Lightning Bolt and Goblin Guide are tier 1. Basically... that experiment suggested the best deck was 25ish Eidolons and 35ish lands (that outperformed basically everything).

So I've been thinking about that. It's pretty popular these days to include Pyrostatic Pillar as Eidolon's 5+, but what if that approach isn't optimal? What if instead of going for a strictly worse, next best it's better to go for a worse, but not strictly worse alternative? In Berserker's favor it will almost always renown if you pick your spot, and it's a 1 sided Eidolon that can even trigger on Planeswalkers and other big mana spells. Against it is that it's 3 mana for a 2/2 haste (if it gets to hit as a 3/3 though, you probably win the game).

As for what would be cut to include it, we don't have all that many 3 CMC slots, but what about removing Sulfuric Vortex for it? I could even see cutting one Firecraft.

[Krimson Viper]

I thought about Scab Clan when it was first spoiled, but I ultimately decided against. I feel like it sits as a more midrange type of strategy that doesn't mind going into the longer game. I definitely think this deck needs more three drops if your meta is heavy with Miracles, but nearly every other deck will answer it with something bigger or a kill spell. It starts out late, and there's no way to get it down faster as we have no mana acceleration and most spells are already triggering Eidolon.

It's clunky. I definitely wouldn't cut Firecraft or Rift Bolt. I want to add to them, just not in their literal three mana sense (see: Rift Bolt alternate cost). You'll need more mana to run more three mana spells without hindering what we're already doing.

[Brael]

I thought about Scab Clan when it was first spoiled, but I ultimately decided against. I feel like it sits as a more midrange type of strategy that doesn't mind going into the longer game. I definitely think this deck needs more three drops if your meta is heavy with Miracles, but nearly every other deck will answer it with something bigger or a kill spell. It starts out late, and there's no way to get it down faster as we have no mana acceleration and most spells are already triggering Eidolon.

It's clunky. I definitely wouldn't cut Firecraft or Rift Bolt. I want to add to them, just not in their literal three mana sense (see: Rift Bolt alternate cost). You'll need more mana to run more three mana spells without hindering what we're already doing.

I already run more mana than most people.

For what it's worth, I'm probably going to try it out in a 10 week paper league soon, which is basically going to be prep for Louisville since I would really like to attend it... though I'm not yet sold on playing Burn there.

My LGS started up a legacy league, each person gets 2 decks (you pick which you're playing each week before pairings go up). 10 weeks long. My primary deck is something that's pretty experimental, so I decided to go with Burn as a safe secondary choice. I'm playing pretty much what I've been playing for the past 4 months which is land heavy, and was actually a computer generated deck from my simulator. The only change I'm making is I put 1 Berserker MB and 1 SB to try them out at the expense of a MB Firecraft and SB Fireblast.

The big "feature" being that I'm giving up topdeck wars due to the land count in exchange for having more consistency in the early game.

[Krimson Viper]

I already run more mana than most people.

For what it's worth, I'm probably going to try it out in a 10 week paper league soon, which is basically going to be prep for Louisville since I would really like to attend it... though I'm not yet sold on playing Burn there.

My LGS started up a legacy league, each person gets 2 decks (you pick which you're playing each week before pairings go up). 10 weeks long. My primary deck is something that's pretty experimental, so I decided to go with Burn as a safe secondary choice. I'm playing pretty much what I've been playing for the past 4 months which is land heavy, and was actually a computer generated deck from my simulator. The only change I'm making is I put 1 Berserker MB and 1 SB to try them out at the expense of a MB Firecraft and SB Fireblast.

The big "feature" being that I'm giving up topdeck wars due to the land count in exchange for having more consistency in the early game.

I never said more land, I said more mana. I think to power it (Berserker) out in Burn without mudding up your hand with three drops, you'd need something like fast mana: Lotus Petal or Simian Spirit Guide. But if you're cutting a three drop for a different three drop, I don't think you'll have an issue with what I'm talking about.

How many lands are you running? I want to go to twenty-one, but I can't seem to find that last slot.

[Brael]

How many lands are you running? I want to go to twenty-one, but I can't seem to find that last slot.

More than 21. I'm actually playing 25. I know there's a lot of resistance to that many lands, but it's working for me. Perhaps looking at the list you can figure out what you can cut.

Land 25
16 Mountain
1 Barbarian Ring
8 red fetch

Creatures 14
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Goblin Guide
1 Grim Lavamancer
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
1 Scab-Clan Berserker

Spells 21
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Price of Progress
3 Searing Blaze
3 Exquisite Firecraft
2 Fireblast
1 Sulfuric Vortex

Sideboard 15
2 Volcanic Fallout
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Skullcrack
1 Flame Rift
1 Scab-Clan Berserker

The build probably seems really weird considering it's somewhere between 5 and 7 lands more than is typically run, but I've had very good results with it over the past couple months, at a minimum my win rate hasn't gone down. We'll see how it does in the league, it's pretty consistent and fast though at the expense of worse topdecks.

[EdsonDettoni]

Hi, you all,

I'd like to share with you my lastest Burn deck. It's focused in damage race.

I've in mind to maximize "Consistency", "Guaranteed Damage", "No Lag Damage" and "Virtual Card Advantage"

Most polemic choices are:

(i) No Price of Progress, replaced by Exquisite Firecraft. Price of Porgress can be useless (against basic land decks), weakened (by avoiding non basic land drop), and countered.
(ii) No Monastery Swiftspear, replaced by Spark Elemental. Because Monastery is a bad top deck, and Spark Elemental is a consistant 1cc drop, and it helps with threshold.
(iii) No Sulfuric Vortex in main deck. Since it's damage has lag, and life gain is mostly on creatures and artifactics. The solution is Searing Blaze in main deck, and Smash to Smithereens in side board.


// Lands
4 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
4 [KTK] Bloodstained Mire
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
8 [ZEN] Mountain
2 [OD] Barbarian Ring

// Creatures
4 [ZEN] Goblin Guide
4 [FD] Spark Elemental
4 [JOU] Eidolon of the Great Revel

// Spells
4 [TSP] Rift Bolt
4 [M11] Lightning Bolt
4 [CHK] Lava Spike
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [WWK] Searing Blaze
4 [ORI] Exquisite Firecraft
4 [VI] Fireblast

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ORI] Smash to Smithereens
SB: 3 [SC] Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 2 [8E] Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 2 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 2 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [SHM] Faerie Macabre


Other cards i've rejected, but considered:

SB: 1 [SC] Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 1 [RTR] Ash Zealot
SB: 1 [GTC] Skullcrack
SB: 1 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [BNG] Searing Blood
SB: 1 [PT] Pyroclasm
SB: 1 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 [M15] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [EX] Price of Progress
SB: 1 [NE] Flame Rift
SB: 1 [A] Taiga
SB: 1 [THS] Destructive Revelry
SB: 1 [KTK] Monastery Swiftspear
SB: 1 [M12] Grim Lavamancer
SB: 1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
SB: 1 [TSP] Sudden Shock
SB: 1 [AVR] Vexing Devil
SB: 1 [NPH] Gut Shot
SB: 1 [RTR] Electrickery
SB: 1 [PD2] Hellspark Elemental
SB: 1 [FUT] Keldon Megaliths
SB: 1 [CH] Blood Moon
SB: 1 [CNS] Volcanic Fallout


I hope you like it.

Edson.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Thanks for sharing Ed!
Do you have any information you can provide that might tempt people to try your list over a more proven list that runs Price of Progress?
Any tournament results? Or how your list changes certain matchups? Maybe what your meta looks like?

I see you've ruled out Sulfuric Vortex due to 'damage lag', yet you are playing 4 Rift Bolt. Care to explain what appears to be an inconsistency in your thought process? Or are you only ever hardcasting Rift Bolt?

[EdsonDettoni]

Thanks for sharing Ed!
Do you have any information you can provide that might tempt people to try your list over a more proven list that runs Price of Progress?
Any tournament results? Or how your list changes certain matchups? Maybe what your meta looks like?

I see you've ruled out Sulfuric Vortex due to 'damage lag', yet you are playing 4 Rift Bolt. Care to explain what appears to be an inconsistency in your thought process? Or are you only ever hardcasting Rift Bolt?


Thank you for your response, @Ace/Homebrew. Now mine:

a. Succesfull decks on my meta are: Miracle Control, Lands, Grixis Pyromancer and Death and Taxes.
b. "Lag Damage" is only a problem since 5th turn, and Rift Bolt can be played for its normal cost then.
c. Sadly, I cannot give you a propper report. But my impression is how the pressure have changed sides since I replaced Price of Progress, because Exquisite Firecraft is "Guaranteed damage".

[Brael]

I never said more land, I said more mana. I think to power it (Berserker) out in Burn without mudding up your hand with three drops, you'd need something like fast mana: Lotus Petal or Simian Spirit Guide. But if you're cutting a three drop for a different three drop, I don't think you'll have an issue with what I'm talking about.

I wanted to put this to the test. Burn hasn't come up in my league yet but it will (we each get 2 decks we swap week to week before pairings) once I get some testing in with my other deck that has been in the que longer than my Burn ideas have.

Preliminary results with Berserker have been promising but 4 appears to be too many, but it could just be a byproduct of too many 3 drops. In practice, Berserker has been very close to a guaranteed 4 damage, which is what it's main competitor in Firecraft is. The tradeoff is being uncounterable and guaranteed (no blocks) vs having a higher upside.

I think fast mana destroys the necessary card efficiency, because you go from 4 damage in one card to 4 damage in two cards, essentially downgrading what should be a bomb to a Shock.

I've had only a handful of games with the Berserker so far and it hasn't appeared often since it's only a 1 of (plus another 1 in the SB) but I did add it to run it through my simulator for whatever that's worth (just 10000 games though), decks with it had fewer T3 wins and fewer T5 wins but many more T4 wins. The optimal number looks to be somewhere between 2 and 3. It's all theory but the data suggests a 2 of Scab-Clan Berserker could be pretty good as long as you keep the rest of the curve in mind. I'm locked into playing a 1/1 MB/SB split in my tournament deck for the next 11 weeks (and then hopefully a few more after that when I top 4) so by the end of that I should have some pretty good feedback.

The results are still a bit premature but so far I approve of the card. I would suggest others give it a try. The worst thing I can say against it so far is that it's pretty bad against D&T where the burn spells are better.

[Brael]

Played 4 rounds tonight, same build, went 3-1 Saw the Berserker a bunch so it was a good evaluation.

Played against 2x Miracles (1-2, 2-1), 1x Show and Tell (2-0), 1x Shardless (2-1). Cast Berserker 7 times, he ate FoW twice, was worth 4 damage 4 times, and 8 damage once. So overall I got 26 damage out of it for just shy of 4 damage/card. Not being a 1 drop was pretty handy against Miracles. Of course, against Miracles it was just worse than Exquisite Firecraft because that can't be countered.

All in all I liked the card but my opponents always identified it as a huge threat and burned several resources to get rid of it. It might be better in a deck that can tax the opponents removal more. It wasn't bad, but I'm not sure it was the best thing I could be doing. Needs more testing.

[Amagon]

Hi everyone,

I'm pretty new to both Legacy and Burn and I was hoping to get some tips from more experience pilots.

I've been to two monthly events. The first was 8 people and I lost the first two rounds against Abzan Stoneblade (1-2) and Grixis Delver (0-2). I got a Bye for third round as 1 player had to leave so I played a for fun game against one of the undefeated who IDed in to top 4. He was on Shardless and I won that match 2-0.

So not a great start to my tournament record but I still enjoyed playing what feels like high end magic against seasoned players.

Yesterday was the second monthly event, this time with 10 people and that went much better.

I played Shardless (2-0), Manaless Dredge(2-1), U/B Reanimator(2-1) and went into round 4 as the only undefeated so far. I IDed with my 4th round opponent into the top 4 but played a game anyway. He was on Death and Taxes. I got the match 2-1 and we went to top 4. I went in as the top seed and ended up against my round 4 opponent. unfortunately this is where my streak ended under a nail biter of a game 3. We were both at 5 and I had a Sulfuric Vortex on the field. he had a lethal board. All I needed to draw was either a land to turn on the searing blaze in my hand or any other burn spell. Instead I drew a goblin guide and that was game over.

My games against Dredge and Reanimator were really just races and honestly I only won game 3 of the Reanimator match by my opponent keeping a sketchy hand and hoping for a land to reanimate the Iona in his GY. Which even with my two guides on the field he was unable to find.

What I'd love to find out are some tips for the DnT match up specifically and any outs I could use to make the Reanimator a little better.

[Krimson Viper]

Reanimator is pretty abysmal by any standard. Some players will tell you otherwise, but a high majority of the time you're going to lose. Some people get lucky, or the opponent underestimates you, but seasoned Reanimator pilots will win ninety, or more, percent of the time. Having Faerie Macabre, Tormod's Crypt, or even Surgical Extraction will be your go to cards. Any are fine, but it's dependent upon your meta. I don't like Relic of Progenitus, but that extra card is nice and juicy. I don't like it because it costs mana. I feel like this is a race, with you needing to make them hiccup just once to take the win.

I would take out Price for your grave hate. They run basics and only need two to three lands to operate making Price a two mana for two damage spell at best. Some may argue that taking out creatures is the way to go, but I've won a game with Griselbrand in play causing the Sulfuric Vortex to kill him slowly and Guides sitting on board. Same thing happened with Iona. I can see the value of creatures over Price. If you can, play out your Crypts turn one on the play if multiple in hand. They can cast Entomb with Exhume on the stack, after Tormod's Crypt or Relic's ability has resolved making you a sad panda. On the draw, I would still do it if multiple in hand, but just be aware that Daze is a card in the seventy-five. I'm not sure if Pithing Needle is, though.

Death and Taxes is a fun match up. It has different ways to go, but you do need to get them dead real quick. They're a control deck, after all. I like having any kind of Searing effect against them: Searing Blaze, Searing Blood, Smash to Smithereens. I don't like having too many, however, as any Thalia can stretch the game late and if you're on a nineteen land or less build, she will spell game over when you're behind with a lot of two mana spells in hand. I've moved away from Grim Lavamancer because he is a little slow in some match ups and can be Revokered, but if you have him in your seventy-five, I would bring him in. Kill Mom (Mother of Runes) on site and beware of Flickerwisp. Jitte and Batterskull are must answers, Thalia can be ignored sometimes.

I take out Guides and Eidolon for Smash and additional hate like Vortex, Needle, and Grim. Needle can be great, but like I said earlier, beware of Flickerwisp. You can play with the idea of keeping Guide in or out by whether you're on the play or draw. On the draw, he's out. On the play, I would keep him in if nothing else to board in. Gets outclassed real quick. Eidolon can cause you more pain if there's a Vial out. Always out with Eidolon. Don't attack into an untapped Stoneforge Mystic. A Batterskull becoming a road block suddenly is very heartbreaking if you don't have Sulfuric Vortex in play.

Anyway, my two cents.

[Amagon]

Thanks for the reply. I wasn't really sure about the DnT plays. I found my self bolting the mother of runes and mystic every chance and was hoping I was making the right play. What about effects like Volcanic Fallout or proclaim against DnT?. It feels like it could come in handy but it might be a bit greedy.

[Krimson Viper]

By proclaim, I'm assuming Pyroclasm? Board wipes have been played, but rarely. That probably depends on your build and how you like to play, but I feel a wipe against D&T might not go your way. I can see you spending two cards to get ride of their board, only for them to rebuild, and even then, Batterskull might just be in play already and not answered. Stoneforge already did its damage by finding Batterskull or Jitte. You might not need to answer Stoneforge by killing it anymore.

See what I mean by D&T can have different ways to go? They have a lot of lines to take, and we only have so many. Player skill to force them into a corner to make a mistake, or race them. You won't be able to control their board in the late game, maybe midgame, and early game control is a tight role. You'll get better as you play against the deck more often.

[Amagon]

yeah sorry auto correct.

I really appreciate your thoughts on this. I'm looking forward to the event I can get to.

[Krimson Viper]

You're welcome man. Pardon me for being a little vague in my answers, but it's hard to generalize with Death and Taxes.

[TheYoungPyromancer]

(i) No Price of Progress, replaced by Exquisite Firecraft. Price of Porgress can be useless (against basic land decks), weakened (by avoiding non basic land drop), and countered.


When it comes to Eldrazi Stompy, having Price of Progress in your opening hand might be THE way to win. Have you had the chance to test your build against this deck?

Cheers.

[Gaudy]

When it comes to Eldrazi Stompy, having Price of Progress in your opening hand might be THE way to win. Have you had the chance to test your build against this deck?

Cheers.

the only problem with price show up when the eldrazi players know he doesn't need to be greedy with his lands, in that case is a dificult matchup.

when it's come to side game, what to side out and what to side in?

[Krimson Viper]

the only problem with price show up when the eldrazi players know he doesn't need to be greedy with his lands, in that case is a dificult matchup.

when it's come to side game, what to side out and what to side in?

I've kind of had come to the same issue of what to figure out to remove for the Smashes in my board. I've played against Eldrazi a total of two matches? I don't really like Guide, Spike, and Eidolon. I've considered those because Guide is outclassed quickly, Eidolon mostly does no damage to them and hurts us a lot, and Spike doesn't target creatures, which is always my gripe about them. So, for sure Eidolon, and maybe some number of Guide or Spike.

That's how I feel, at least. What about everyone else?

[Speedbump]

I've kind of had come to the same issue of what to figure out to remove for the Smashes in my board. I've played against Eldrazi a total of two matches? I don't really like Guide, Spike, and Eidolon. I've considered those because Guide is outclassed quickly, Eidolon mostly does no damage to them and hurts us a lot, and Spike doesn't target creatures, which is always my gripe about them. So, for sure Eidolon, and maybe some number of Guide or Spike.

That's how I feel, at least. What about everyone else?For me, order goes Eidolon > Guide > Spike.

I feel that cutting creatures is the safer gameplan, and there's not going to be more than 8 cards coming in from the sideboard. At least Lava Spike can go upstairs, which is why it's lower on my sideboarding priority.

[Stuart]

I played Burn at a 1K in San Antonio this weekend. Went 3-2, which was good for 10th place. I didn't know this beforehand, but Burn is very prevelant in San Antonio; I played the mirror once, and 2 other opponents were packing Sun Droplet and Obstinate Baloth in their boards. Gross.

Anyway, two questions for you guys:
- Other than the obvious matchups (Sneak Show, Reanimator, Eldrazi), when do you bring in Ensnaring Bridge? I've been siding it vs midrangey decks that make big creatures like Knight, as I start to sweat vs anything I can't Bolt. However, I'm not sure if that's choking up my deck with too many 3 drops when I should just be going for the throat.
- Any tips for playing the mirror? I've lost every single time I've played the mirror, cause I can't really wrap my head around the matchup.

[Brael]

For me, order goes Eidolon > Guide > Spike.

I feel that cutting creatures is the safer gameplan, and there's not going to be more than 8 cards coming in from the sideboard. At least Lava Spike can go upstairs, which is why it's lower on my sideboarding priority.

I agree with this, except Swiftspear before Guide. The only creature that I think really pulls it's weight in the matchup is Lavamancer.

[mistercakes]

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/530544#paper

wondering how he was able to fit all of these cards and run so many land, 66 card deck!

[Krimson Viper]

I played Burn at a 1K in San Antonio this weekend. Went 3-2, which was good for 10th place. I didn't know this beforehand, but Burn is very prevelant in San Antonio; I played the mirror once, and 2 other opponents were packing Sun Droplet and Obstinate Baloth in their boards. Gross.

Anyway, two questions for you guys:
- Other than the obvious matchups (Sneak Show, Reanimator, Eldrazi), when do you bring in Ensnaring Bridge? I've been siding it vs midrangey decks that make big creatures like Knight, as I start to sweat vs anything I can't Bolt. However, I'm not sure if that's choking up my deck with too many 3 drops when I should just be going for the throat.
- Any tips for playing the mirror? I've lost every single time I've played the mirror, cause I can't really wrap my head around the matchup.
I don't run Bridge. I find that every time I land it, it gets answered swiftly and then ran over on their turn. I just attack their face and race. I would rather have Searing effects and Sulfuric Vortex here. Killing artifacts post board is a must. Jitte will be in, if not Batterskull.

I agree with this, except Swiftspear before Guide. The only creature that I think really pulls it's weight in the matchup is Lavamancer.
Why Swiftspear out over Guide? I'll take Swiftspear as she can grow through a Chalice. Both become speed bumps as turns to on.

[ghostfire86]

I don't run Bridge. I find that every time I land it, it gets answered swiftly and then ran over on their turn. I just attack their face and race. I would rather have Searing effects and Sulfuric Vortex here. Killing artifacts post board is a must. Jitte will be in, if not Batterskull.

Why Swiftspear out over Guide? I'll take Swiftspear as she can grow through a Chalice. Both become speed bumps as turns to on.

I do run bridge in the sideboard but I rarely drop it. I keep it in case the opponent meets a single rule:
Can they reasonably keep up in the damage count and stall my plays (stall does not always mean counter spells)? If I go top deck mode and they can maintain pressure the bridge should be considered.

My experience with my burn deck is a consistent average kill rate on turn 4-5 and a rare kill turn 3. This is for those cases when all is right in the universe. Not everything goes well all the time. Swiftspear vs Guide has been a long debate. This is the focuse that some should keep in mind:
You have at BEST two turns to effectively cause damage with the creature, turn 1 & 2. The potential damage between between the two is Guide-4 and Swiftspear-3(unless you fireblast and she is 4,but your out of land or out of a hand).
Guide gives you recon on their deck. Some argue that the opponent getting a land is not worth it but the land goes to hand, not play. Burn doesn't worry about much interaction between players. It hits until it cannot go on. If they can manipulate their deck to top a land well they would have done so anyways regardless of the guide, it might have just taken a little more effort for them (burn is not a prison deck, it doesn't care).
Swiftspear gives you a pumpable creature....when you have spells. Are you running UR for the extra card draw? Then play Delver. Are you playing browbeat? Your old school, I like you, but you won't be competitive.

[Brael]

I don't run Bridge. I find that every time I land it, it gets answered swiftly and then ran over on their turn. I just attack their face and race. I would rather have Searing effects and Sulfuric Vortex here. Killing artifacts post board is a must. Jitte will be in, if not Batterskull.

Why Swiftspear out over Guide? I'll take Swiftspear as she can grow through a Chalice. Both become speed bumps as turns to on.

I find the idea of casting things into Chalice to pump Swiftspear to not come up very often, if ever, and less often will the creature ever connect. Instead I would rather get in that extra point of damage early alongside some information.

[ghostfire86]

Here is my list for Mono Red Burn:

Creatures (12)
4 goblin guide
4 grim lavamancer
4 eidolon of the great revel

Spells (27)
1 Shard Volley
4 Chain lightning
4 lightning bolt
4 Lava Spike
3 skullcrack
4 price of progress
4 rift bolt
3 Fireblast

Enchantments (3)
3 sulfuric vortex

Land (18)
4 arid mesa
4 scalding tarn
10 mountain

Sideboard (15)
3 anger of the gods
4 smash to smithereens
3 blood moon
2 pyrostatic pillar
3ensnaring bridge

Deck breakdown:
Converted Mana Cost(CMC) Percentage of Deck
-0 3 spells (Counting fireblast) 5%
-1 25 spells (Counting suspended rift bolt) 41.6%
-2 11 spells 18.3%
-3 7 spells 11.6%
-6 3 spells (Fireblast hard casted) 5%

Land 18 30%

Ratio (Spell:Land) (7:3)7/3 2.33:1

Opening hand should be approximately equal to 4 spells, 2 land, and 1 random that will most likely be a 5th spell seeing that the ratio still determines a 66% chance of the 5th card to be a spell vs a land at 34%.
The opening hand of the 5 spells, 2.08 should be 1 CMC, 0.915 should be 2 CMC, 0.55 should be 3 CMC, 0.25 should be 0 or 6. Most likely the opening hand will be 3-1 CMC, 1-2CMC, and 1-Random CMC.

Problem matches I've found for the deck include Fish, BUG, UG Infect, Stoneforge Mystic/Batterskull (Insert deck shell), Counterbalance, Sanctuary, Reanimator, Painter's Servant, Sneak and Show, and Soul Sisters.

I've dropped this deck down to 17 land before, but the land draw became to inconsistent to properly be effective at a consistent rate. Average kill rate is turn 4-5, fastest kill rate is turn 3 with proper hand and draw, and slowest kill time can take up to turn 10 (not all decks have the goal to kill quickly and have few win conditions in the deck).

[Speedbump]

I agree with this, except Swiftspear before Guide. The only creature that I think really pulls it's weight in the matchup is Lavamancer.I think the Prowess triggers might be more useful than it appears.

Either way, I don't actually run Swiftspear, so take my advice with a grain of salt. :laugh:

[Brael]

I think the Prowess triggers might be more useful than it appears.

Either way, I don't actually run Swiftspear, so take my advice with a grain of salt. :laugh:

My experience has been that even if you pump a Swiftspear to a 4/5, they'll simply chump it if necessary. Most Eldrazi players leave a blocker back against Burn and that doesn't really get you anywhere. Past T1 and sometimes T2, you just can't swing in and on those turns Guide is going to hit for more damage.

[ghostfire86]

My experience has been that even if you pump a Swiftspear to a 4/5, they'll simply chump it if necessary. Most Eldrazi players leave a blocker back against Burn and that doesn't really get you anywhere. Past T1 and sometimes T2, you just can't swing in and on those turns Guide is going to hit for more damage.

Consistency wins

[TheYoungPyromancer]

For me, order goes Eidolon > Guide > Spike.

I feel that cutting creatures is the safer gameplan, and there's not going to be more than 8 cards coming in from the sideboard. At least Lava Spike can go upstairs, which is why it's lower on my sideboarding priority.

Before thinking what to side out, what would you side in against Eldrazi?

I'm currently running this sideboard, which is pretty standard for Mono Red these days -at least at rather large tournaments:

4x Exquisite Firecraft
3x Pyrostatic Pillar
2x Smash to Smithereens
2x Searing Blaze
2x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Pithing Needle

Sometimes I use these, depending on the metagame:

2x Pyroblast
3x Smash to Smithereens (instead of 2x)

So, aside from 2x Smash to Smithereens (against Chalice of the Void and/or Umezawa's Jitte) and 2x Ensnaring Bridge, I think I wouldn't use anything else against Eldrazi. And since Eidolon of the Great Revel will only deal damage to me, it seems like a good 4-of to cut out for games 2 and 3.

Maybe, just maybe, I would side-in the extra copies of Searing Blaze against those nasty Eldrazi Mimic. In which case I'd probably cut the two copies of Sulfuric Vortex I'm running, due to their speed. Regardless of who wins, this match should end quickly.

[Speedbump]

Before thinking what to side out, what would you side in against Eldrazi?

I'm currently running this sideboard, which is pretty standard for Mono Red these days -at least at rather large tournaments:

4x Exquisite Firecraft
3x Pyrostatic Pillar
2x Smash to Smithereens
2x Searing Blaze
2x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Pithing Needle

Sometimes I use these, depending on the metagame:

2x Pyroblast
3x Smash to Smithereens (instead of 2x)

So, aside from 2x Smash to Smithereens (against Chalice of the Void and/or Umezawa's Jitte) and 2x Ensnaring Bridge, I think I wouldn't use anything else against Eldrazi. And since Eidolon of the Great Revel will only deal damage to me, it seems like a good 4-of to cut out for games 2 and 3.

Maybe, just maybe, I would side-in the extra copies of Searing Blaze against those nasty Eldrazi Mimic. In which case I'd probably cut the two copies of Sulfuric Vortex I'm running, due to their speed. Regardless of who wins, this match should end quickly.With your sideboard, that's probably the safest cuts. Eidolon of the Great Revel is incredibly dead in that match-up, and you don't have enough other cards in the sideboard to cater towards the match-up. That said, assuming the Eldrazi player isn't running Sphere of Resistance effects, Exquisite Firecraft is pretty handy against Thought-Knot Seer.

My current sideboard is as below:

1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Skullcrack
2 Vexing Shusher
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Smash to Smithereens
1 Exquisite Firecraft
1 Searing Blood
1 Searing Blaze

Searing Blaze, Smash to Smithereens, and Vexing Shusher are cards that always come in from the board. Exquisite Firecraft sometimes makes the cut, depending on if I think they don't have Sphere of Resistance in their board. Grim Lavamancer has more potential than Goblin Guide, because it can aid in killing larger creatures with only one Burn spell+an activation.

[TheYoungPyromancer]

I did 3-1 tonight at our local tournament. Although the result was good enough to get me to 2nd place, losing the final against Death and Taxes truly felt like ending up last. Especially after being the only player with 9 points by the end of round 3 after defeating Miracles -the Tier of all Tiers. Even after cornering my opponent at 1 life and soft-locking the game using a Pithing Needle naming Umezawa's Jitte, I was unable to topdeck a single burn spell for the next following 4 turns.

Moral of the story: Burn won't forgive a single mistake, and that's the beauty of this deck. Also, double pinning Umezawa's Jitte is not as weird as it sounds.

Anyway, fellow Pyromancers... I'm running the following list:

//Main Deck
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2 Grim Lavamancer

4 Lava Spike
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast
2 Searing Blaze
2 Rift Bolt

2 Sulfuric Vortex

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Arid Mesa
10 Mountain

//Sideboard:
3 Exquisite Firecraft
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Searing Blaze
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Pithing Needle


1. What are your thoughts on the role Burn should assume against Death and Taxes? (Considering post-board games as well)

2. How would you proceed with the sideboard strategy?

3. Some final thoughts:
Siding-in seemed pretty obvious:
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Searing Blaze
2 Pithing Needle

I tried siding-out the following cards, but I'm almost certain there are safer cuts. Any ideas?
2 Rift Bolt (They become a pain in the ass after Thalia, Guardian of Thraben resolves)
2 Fireblast (Same reason as before)
2 Price of Progress (The opponent is likely to play around them by playing basic lands and Wasteland)
1 Lava Spike (Since it can't target creatures)

[Speedbump]

I did 3-1 tonight at our local tournament. Although the result was good enough to get me to 2nd place, losing the final against Death and Taxes truly felt like ending up last. Especially after being the only player with 9 points by the end of round 3 after defeating Miracles -the Tier of all Tiers. Even after cornering my opponent at 1 life and soft-locking the game using a Pithing Needle naming Umezawa's Jitte, I was unable to topdeck a single burn spell for the next following 4 turns.

Moral of the story: Burn won't forgive a single mistake, and that's the beauty of this deck. Also, double pinning Umezawa's Jitte is not as weird as it sounds.

Anyway, fellow Pyromancers... I'm running the following list:

4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2 Grim Lavamancer

4 Lava Spike
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast
2 Searing Blaze
2 Rift Bolt

2 Sulfuric Vortex

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Arid Mesa

Sideboard:

3 Exquisite Firecraft
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Searing Blaze
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Pithing Needle

Siding in seems pretty obvious:

3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Searing Blaze
2 Pithing Needle

1. What would you side out? I tried this:
2 Rift Bolt (They become a pain in the ass after Thalia, Guardian of Thraben resolves.
2 Fireblast (Same reason as.

2- What are your thoughts on the role Burnshould assume against Death and Taxes? (Considering post-board games as well). What are the optimal cuts for G2 and G3?Congrats on second place!

I'll answer the questions out-of-order, as #2 will give answer to #1.

2: Burn tends to play the Control side in this match-up, as you have more removal for their threats than they have threats. You can also sit behind Grim Lavamancer for most of the game, while also attacking with Goblin Guide and Monastery Swiftspear. The only card that is a massive threat is Mother of Runes, as D&T blanks too much of your removal. Thalia can be slightly annoying, but that's only when you're forced to keep 1-land hands. Sometimes you just have to go for the race, but it's more frequent to win with creatures backed by removal.

1: I would side out every Eidolon of the Great Revel in the deck, and then start shaving Price of Progress until you hit the required number of sideboard cards. Eidolon is actively bad against Aether Vial, Thalia, and most of their equipment, while also forcing you to play more aggressively in a match-up where being the Control deck wins more often. Price of Progress isn't that great against a deck with 11 basics, although is better than Eidolon. Searing Blaze, Smash to Smithereens, and possibly Pithing Needle are better than both Eidolon of the Great Revel and Price of Progress.

[TheYoungPyromancer]

Thank you so much for the feedback! Cutting Eidolon of the Great Revel makes a lot of sense, and it seems way safer than cutting Fireblast or Lava Spike.


Burn tends to play the Control side in this match-up, as you have more removal for their threats than they have threats. You can also sit behind Grim Lavamancer for most of the game, while also attacking with Goblin Guide and Monastery Swiftspear. The only card that is a massive threat is Mother of Runes, as D&T blanks too much of your removal. Thalia can be slightly annoying, but that's only when you're forced to keep 1-land hands. Sometimes you just have to go for the race, but it's more frequent to win with creatures backed by removal.

I agree on the idea of assuming a board control approach for games 2 and 3 as both the opponent and I should be counting on Smash to Smithereens and a full pack of Searing Blaze. However, burn tends to run out of gas during Game 1 as soon as Batterskull or Umezawa's Jitte resolve. With this in mind, and considering the lack of artifact removal before sideboarding, shouldn't Game 1 be played with an all-in strategy? It's hard to rely on just two copies of Sulfuric Vortex to prevent the lifegain, and even if the burn pilot is lucky enough to draw a copy before Turn 5, either Thalia, Guardian of Thraben or Rishadan Port will probably be around to make it hard to cast.

[Gaudy]

I did 3-1 tonight at our local tournament. Although the result was good enough to get me to 2nd place, losing the final against Death and Taxes truly felt like ending up last. Especially after being the only player with 9 points by the end of round 3 after defeating Miracles -the Tier of all Tiers. Even after cornering my opponent at 1 life and soft-locking the game using a Pithing Needle naming Umezawa's Jitte, I was unable to topdeck a single burn spell for the next following 4 turns.

Moral of the story: Burn won't forgive a single mistake, and that's the beauty of this deck. Also, double pinning Umezawa's Jitte is not as weird as it sounds.

Anyway, fellow Pyromancers... I'm running the following list:

//Main Deck
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2 Grim Lavamancer

4 Lava Spike
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast
2 Searing Blaze
2 Rift Bolt

2 Sulfuric Vortex

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Arid Mesa
10 Mountain

//Sideboard:
3 Exquisite Firecraft
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Searing Blaze
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Pithing Needle


1. What are your thoughts on the role Burn should assume against Death and Taxes? (Considering post-board games as well)

2. How would you proceed with the sideboard strategy?

3. Some final thoughts:
Siding-in seemed pretty obvious:
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Searing Blaze
2 Pithing Needle

I tried siding-out the following cards, but I'm almost certain there are safer cuts. Any ideas?
2 Rift Bolt (They become a pain in the ass after Thalia, Guardian of Thraben resolves)
2 Fireblast (Same reason as before)
2 Price of Progress (The opponent is likely to play around them by playing basic lands and Wasteland)
1 Lava Spike (Since it can't target creatures)

I do not like your main and side build. I don't understand why only 2 rift bolt in your main deck. i think you should keep 4 rift in main and 4 searing in side and cuting out Pyrostatic Pillar.
for your side strategy eidolon out, 2 fireblast and 2 price out, side in smash, searing and needle

[TheYoungPyromancer]

I do not like your main and side build. I don't understand why only 2 rift bolt in your main deck.

I think the 2 copies of Searing Blaze in the maindeck are a metagame choice. However, and as opposed to Rift Bolt, I like the tempo advantage this card yields. It is good against Delver of Secrets, Mother of Runes, Deathrite Shaman, Dryad Arbor, Stoneforge Mystic, and a whole bunch of 1-drop and 2-drop creatures that define the format in the early game, which is when Burn should seal the deal. The only times I side this card out is when playing against Miracles, Storm or Charbelcher.


i think you should keep 4 rift in main and 4 searing in side and cuting out Pyrostatic Pillar.

Pyrostatic Pillar is a valuable card against top tier decks such as Miracles, Grixis Delver and Storm. I'm not so sure about cutting it out just so I can get two extra copies of Rift Bolt in maindeck. Why do you think this card should be put aside?

[Gaudy]

I think the 2 copies of Searing Blaze in the maindeck are a metagame choice. However, and as opposed to Rift Bolt, I like the tempo advantage this card yields. It is good against Delver of Secrets, Mother of Runes, Deathrite Shaman, Dryad Arbor, Stoneforge Mystic, and a whole bunch of 1-drop and 2-drop creatures that define the format in the early game, which is when Burn should seal the deal. The only times I side this card out is when playing against Miracles, Storm or Charbelcher.
yes, it is really good againts many creature that define the format and give you the feeling of advantage in the race of damage, but rise up the mana cost of the deck and you need a land drop to make it powerfull, which after the third land you probably don't wanna it and Rift Bolt can kill creatures plus is still good against miracles, cause they don't have many 3 drops in their decks



Pyrostatic Pillar is a valuable card against top tier decks such as Miracles, Grixis Delver and Storm. I'm not so sure about cutting it out just so I can get two extra copies of Rift Bolt in maindeck. Why do you think this card should be put aside?
yes your are right, would you put 3 blaze and 2 pillar in side?

[Gaudy]

Thank you so much for the feedback! Cutting Eidolon of the Great Revel makes a lot of sense, and it seems way safer than cutting Fireblast or Lava Spike.



I agree on the idea of assuming a board control approach for games 2 and 3 as both the opponent and I should be counting on Smash to Smithereens and a full pack of Searing Blaze. However, burn tends to run out of gas during Game 1 as soon as Batterskull or Umezawa's Jitte resolve. With this in mind, and considering the lack of artifact removal before sideboarding, shouldn't Game 1 be played with an all-in strategy? It's hard to rely on just two copies of Sulfuric Vortex to prevent the lifegain, and even if the burn pilot is lucky enough to draw a copy before Turn 5, either Thalia, Guardian of Thraben or Rishadan Port will probably be around to make it hard to cast.

i have the same feeling about this match up, the first game should be a all in game, probably with 2 creatures and try to steal 6 points of damage whit them and a bounch of sparks to finish the job, the second should be like a control board strategy

[Krimson Viper]

Genuinely surprised people are putting Grim into their lists again. What deck is chasing you guys to use him again? It's been awhile since I've played, lol.

[Munchyman]

Ever try taking stock burn list and adding lotus petals? Done it a few times on mtgo. I accidentally found out you could turn two people with the deck. Just need 8 cards. Turn one Eidolon is silly too and almost always the right play.

Starting hand.

Swiftspear, mountain, petal, bolt, bolt, bolt and fireblast. Turn two draw a mountain. Of course it can be in different configurations of same 8. As long as you can play mountain >> swiftspear >>> petal >>>bolt turn one. 6 damage. Followed by mountain >>> double bolt >> fireblast = 20 damage exactly.

I've had games with three Goblin Guides turn one. Followed by more attackers turn two is comparable to storm casting warrens speed.

It's a simple list but try petals. It's not just for treasure cruise.

Legacy Burn

4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Price of Progress
2 Searing Blaze
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
2 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Lotus Petal
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
8 Mountain
------------------------
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Smash to Smithereens
4 Exquisite Firecraft
3 Ensaring Bridge

[TheYoungPyromancer]

Genuinely surprised people are putting Grim into their lists again. What deck is chasing you guys to use him again? It's been awhile since I've played, lol.

I don't think it ever left the format completely... Anyway, Burn often runs 8 to 12 fetch lands that feed this guy turn after turn. Considering Burn's lack of library manipulation and card advantage, turning your graveyard into shocks is priceless.

Regarding Grim Lavamancer's interaction with the current metagame, it's a really good card against the different decks using Deathrite Shaman and/or Delver of Secrets. It's also ridiculous against Death and Taxes. It can help burning Eldrazis without losing all your fuel, and it's a solid 1-drop against Miracles.

[mistercakes]

Ever try taking stock burn list and adding lotus petals? Done it a few times on mtgo. I accidentally found out you could turn two people with the deck. Just need 8 cards. Turn one Eidolon is silly too and almost always the right play.

Starting hand.

Swiftspear, mountain, petal, bolt, bolt, bolt and fireblast. Turn two draw a mountain. Of course it can be in different configurations of same 8. As long as you can play mountain >> swiftspear >>> petal >>>bolt turn one. 6 damage. Followed by mountain >>> double bolt >> fireblast = 20 damage exactly.

I've had games with three Goblin Guides turn one. Followed by more attackers turn two is comparable to storm casting warrens speed.

It's a simple list but try petals. It's not just for treasure cruise.

Legacy Burn

4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Price of Progress
2 Searing Blaze
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
2 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Lotus Petal
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
8 Mountain
------------------------
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Smash to Smithereens
4 Exquisite Firecraft
3 Ensaring Bridge

I can't see any reason why this list shouldn't run simian spirit guide over lotus petal. Possible threat, takes no damage to eidolon effects, dodges chalice, and allows you surprise get around daze.

[Munchyman]

I understand your point. To add to your point. You could even hard cast it to gain some late game pressure. Point of lotus petal is to make a turn two kill possible while keeping that same shell most of us are use too.

Im hoping it's a simple upgrade can help us out is few match ups. Turn one eidolon is enough to make some decks vomit.

[RobNC]

Lotus Petal would be a terrible late game top-deck. If you want the acceleration I agree that SSG would be better, as it's not a completely dead card.

[Speedbump]

Ever try taking stock burn list and adding lotus petals?No, because Lotus Petal is hot garbage in Burn.

[Munchyman]

Lotus Petal would be a terrible late game top-deck. If you want the acceleration I agree that SSG would be better, as it's not a completely dead card.


Pretty sure a mountain in many cases is garbage top deck as well. Most burn decks run 19-20 mana sources. Most people run 10-12 fetches and about 8 mountains. Not to change subject but hasn't it already been proven that "thinning" your deck just to thin has a fraction of a percent to help your top deck? May as well run all mountains. Now how much would it hurt to run the same amount of mana sources, say 20. Cutting some number of fetches and or mountains. For petals? Deck still only needs 1-2 mana to truly be played.

I see

Pros:
Busted turn two kills
Turn one eidolon
Grim Lavamancer fodder
Could make deck a turn faster


Cons:
Could lead to mana screw situations
Could have top decked a mountain instead
Chalice on zero is a petal lockout
Your own eidolon could lock you out from playing petal locking you out from another burn spell.

Hmm. I'm kinda fine with pros vs cons. Seriously though it's burn. Not like much is gonna effect the way it plays out.
First couple of turns is still going to play out the way it does normally. After that it's just too deck to win the race. Saying if petal is a bad top deck is a bad argument. Because it's exactly like top deck a mountain.

I also can't see how spirit guide would be strictly better. Spirit guides doesn't allow for swiftspear triggers.

[mistercakes]

How often will you be triggering swiftspear with lotus petal? I think the rest of pros of ssg vs lotus petal are worth it.

[Krimson Viper]

I don't think it ever left the format completely... Anyway, Burn often runs 8 to 12 fetch lands that feed this guy turn after turn. Considering Burn's lack of library manipulation and card advantage, turning your graveyard into shocks is priceless.

Regarding Grim Lavamancer's interaction with the current metagame, it's a really good card against the different decks using Deathrite Shaman and/or Delver of Secrets. It's also ridiculous against Death and Taxes. It can help burning Eldrazis without losing all your fuel, and it's a solid 1-drop against Miracles.

I've been playing Burn for awhile, so I do understand the value Grim gives. In fact, I kept Grim in the deck until sometime last year when I got tired of D&T blindly naming Grim against me forcing me to change my build into using Swiftspear. Good point about Eldrazi. Is there another new deck for the reason why Grim is coming back?

To give you a more accurate time period of when I started to stop playing was when Eldrazi became a deck in Legacy, I stopped paying attention and playing.

[Gaudy]

Ever try taking stock burn list and adding lotus petals? Done it a few times on mtgo. I accidentally found out you could turn two people with the deck. Just need 8 cards. Turn one Eidolon is silly too and almost always the right play.

Starting hand.

Swiftspear, mountain, petal, bolt, bolt, bolt and fireblast. Turn two draw a mountain. Of course it can be in different configurations of same 8. As long as you can play mountain >> swiftspear >>> petal >>>bolt turn one. 6 damage. Followed by mountain >>> double bolt >> fireblast = 20 damage exactly.

I've had games with three Goblin Guides turn one. Followed by more attackers turn two is comparable to storm casting warrens speed.

Do you have any number of the consistency of this list? one of the many reason why mono red is a stable deck is for his consistency, to be a player of mono red mean you want to curve out your oponent and if you are unable to cast 2 spell or a powerfull spell in turn 2 may cost you the game. I'm allways looking for a gap with this deck, if i no longer be able to see and take a gap, then there is no reason to play the deck beyond the love i have for this deck

[Gaudy]

I've been playing Burn for awhile, so I do understand the value Grim gives. In fact, I kept Grim in the deck until sometime last year when I got tired of D&T blindly naming Grim against me forcing me to change my build into using Swiftspear. Good point about Eldrazi. Is there another new deck for the reason why Grim is coming back?

To give you a more accurate time period of when I started to stop playing was when Eldrazi became a deck in Legacy, I stopped paying attention and playing.
may be i'm wrong with this, but i think the game is a little bit slower in this moment, so you can play 1 o 2 Grim in your deck and don't be punished for that. the issue (at least for me) is when to play it. it's cost one, but is it a t1 drop? i try to avoid to play it befor t2 on the play or t3 on the draw, to force my oponent have to use his/her remove spell in a guide or monastery

[Gaudy]

on the lotus petal issue, i just remembered my burn deck when mirrodin was part of the standar and moxen was part of my deck, if i could put a slith firewalker in play early as t1 it was a very good chance of won that game
with that in my mind i will test your list

[reddeckwinning]

Hello Source Mages!

I've followed these forums over the years but never posted, figured I'd share my recent story of GP Louisville since I was able to have success with my favorite archetype Burn at the high level:

https://reddeckwinning.com/2017/01/11/lighting-up-grand-prix-louisville/

I'm usually pretty busy but definitely happy to discuss my build more and join the fire on here :). Hopefully maybe I can even join the lists on the original thread page

[TheYoungPyromancer]

Hello Source Mages!

I've followed these forums over the years but never posted, figured I'd share my recent story of GP Louisville since I was able to have success with my favorite archetype Burn at the high level:

https://reddeckwinning.com/2017/01/11/lighting-up-grand-prix-louisville/

I'm usually pretty busy but definitely happy to discuss my build more and join the fire on here :). Hopefully maybe I can even join the lists on the original thread page

Congratulations on the result! It's really satisfying to see a fellow pyromancer make it that far in such a big tournament.
Nice report, by the way. Your sideboard strategy is very interesting -I certainly invite everyone here to read your report and the reasons behind the SB decisions you made. I'm sure we can all bring some of that experience into our own metagame and tournaments.

I'll post the list you ran at GP Louisville so everyone can see it.

//Maindeck//
4 Goblin Guide
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
3 Grim Lavamancer

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rift Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast
2 Searing Blaze

3 Sulfuric Vortex

3 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
9 Mountain

//Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Exquisite Firecraft
2 Searing Blaze
1 Pyrostatic Pillar

I have a couple of questions:
1. I understand you were expecting to face a couple of Miracles during this tournament, as you mentioned at one point. So, how would you describe this build's strategy against Miracles? (considering you're only running 2 copies of Exquisite Firecraft and a single copy of Pyrostatic Pillar in your sideboard)
2. You didn't face any Eldrazi Stompy during the whole Grand Prix. What's your game strategy here? (aside from siding in Smash to Smithereens and Ensnaring Bridge)

Cheers!

[reddeckwinning]

Hi Young Pyromancer,

Thank you! The tournament was a blast and I am glad I was able to finally get past those early humps that I've had at SCG Classics. Would have been nice to finish the dream and make the PT finally, but I'm definitely happy about th finish.

You ask some good questions. I did expect to play both Miracles and Eldrazi, the list however was not tuned for the former. A very good Miracles player used to be at my LGS (Darrel Feltner - http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=8383&d=248178&f=LE ) and after endless games with him I figured out mostly how I like playing the matchup. Game 1 they have very few three drops in most builds, so like I mentioned in my article simply having 3 Sulfuric Vortexes is quite strong as you're likely to stick one in time to beat the Miracles player's end game. Also simply being efficient early with your spells, trying to use up creatures and sorceries at 1 CMC before they assemble the lock.

Obviously, some games they will get early counter-top and you are in an uphill battle (or Jace). I can accept losing some of those games, it's the equivalent of their best draw vs ours, and most of the time I feel that we are the on average better drawing deck in the matchup. They generally have hard permission and therefore less countermagic to play around in game 1. Countering a Goblin Guide with a Force is a very real play for them as he often chips in so much damage in these games. Also, even if they do assemble the lock, it's often very easy to sneak through a vortex, rift bolt, or lethal Fireblast. These spells require something along the lines of having Council's Judgment or Terminus on top. The builds with maindeck Monastery Mentor or Vendillion Clique are tougher as they present both more "3s" and a clock, so the mileage varies.

A really important facet of the matchup is jamming them. Open mana and post-draw situations are the worst spots to play spells, thus why I like firing off sorceries at 1 CMC early. That's not really much different from what you'd normally do, but the main part of it is finding your windows. When they go to spin top, brainstorm (especially), etc, I like to try and throw a lot of burn into these situations to both delay anything else they planned to do and also to make it more difficult to have everything they need at once. I'm happy to lose a Burn spell to a counter if it means another gets through. And also giving them less chances to find a particular number, like a 2 for price of progress.

With my previous build of the deck, the post board games were often where I'd really crush Miracles. I typically ran 4 Firecraft, 1 Molten Vortex, 1 Pithing Needle, and 2-3 Pyroblast. Bringing those in alongside the 3 Sulfuric Vortex and regular creature suite meant they generally would get behind early and stretched thin late. I didn't have the sideboard room for the GP, but I trusted my own knowledge of the matchup and experience to carry it, and figured since I already feel favored in the matchup that just having 2 Firecraft and a pillar was good enough. I think these games are more about reps then anything else, I lost against the deck for years before finally being comfortable and then rarely losing to it after that.

As for Eldrazi, having 3 Smash for Chalice and 3 Bridge is a pretty big deal. A lot of lists only run 2 of each if that. Also having 4 blazes total after board is fairly reasonable against their early creatures outside of TKS and Smasher. I think people just think this matchup is god awful for Burn, and while admittedly it's not great, price of progress is absolutely bananas in the matchup and they don't really have anything to stop it. I've priced Eldrazi opponents for as much as 12-14 damage with the card, so it's very reasonable to race and you have 4 copies. I'm happy to Mulligan to 5/6 sometimes too just to see a hand that looks like it will race.

I've waffled on bringing in Firecraft, tested it out somewhat since it gets around chalice and kills tks if you draw it after it lands. I think it's too slow, although sometimes it was effective. For the GP I wasn't planning to bring them in.

My GP build was more oriented towards Delver and D&T, with the hope that the board would be sufficient for Eldrazi and my play sufficient for Miracles. I did a spreadsheet analysis prior to the GP of a lot of famous finishes over the years (thanks to the OP on this thread) as well as watched a bunch of old top 8 matches. Brian Camidge's top 8 run inspired me as his build hedged a bit like mine and he seemed fine in the non-creature scary matchups while at the same time looking great for the creature ones. I wanted a little more positive percentage in the latter, and given his successful run I figured it was the right choice. Having Swiftspear, flame rift, extra firecrafts, Pyroblast, etc, doesn't help allll that much vs the other decks, but having a few maindeck blazes + lavamancer and a few more post board does really help against the creature decks.

Also Austin Yost and Patrick Sullivan were split on these plans over the years, and both of them tended to run pretty dedicated board plans, so I banked on making my own decision being the best route. Sullivan especially almost always ran 3-4 dedicated cards for the combo matchups which is what made me feel comfortable on the Leyline decision. I kept losing to Storm or Reanimator, I wasn't about to again at this GP.

[Shax]

It might not look like much or have anything new in it, but here's my creatureless Burn list!
// 60 Maindeck
// 20 Instant
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Sonic Seizure
4 Needle Drop
4 Geistflame
4 Price of Progress

// 20 Land
20 Mountain

// 20 Sorcery
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Browbeat
4 Rift Bolt
4 Firebolt


// 15 Sideboard
// 15 Instant
SB: 4 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 4 Guerrilla Tactics
SB: 4 Skullcrack
SB: 3 Runeflare Trap



It plays out pretty well from my past experiences. The only downside is sometimes losing game 1 to combo/sneakshow, but you still have a chance against all decks in the format because of the surprise factor of pointing your deck at their face.

Card Explanations:

The Burn spells are all mandatory except for Price of Progress, but it's a staple that can easily escalate to 4-8 damage midgame.

All the Burn spells cost one mana except for Browbeat, which acts as the decks engine to draw cards to hit Sonic Seizures, Geistflames and Firebolts.

In the sideboard you have Runeflare Trap to fight combo/control, Skullcrack to stop Lifegain, Smash to Smithereens to hit Chalice or Thorn and Sphere decks. Guerrilla Tactics is a often forgotten about card that will surprise players at the top tables that think they can steamroll you with discard effects.

[Speedbump]

It might not look like much or have anything new in it, but here's my creatureless Burn list!
// 60 Maindeck
// 20 Instant
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Sonic Seizure
4 Needle Drop
4 Geistflame
4 Price of Progress

// 20 Land
20 Mountain

// 20 Sorcery
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Browbeat
4 Rift Bolt
4 Firebolt


// 15 Sideboard
// 15 Instant
SB: 4 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 4 Guerrilla Tactics
SB: 4 Skullcrack
SB: 3 Runeflare Trap



It plays out pretty well from my past experiences. The only downside is sometimes losing game 1 to combo/sneakshow, but you still have a chance against all decks in the format because of the surprise factor of pointing your deck at their face.

Card Explanations:

The Burn spells are all mandatory except for Price of Progress, but it's a staple that can easily escalate to 4-8 damage midgame.

All the Burn spells cost one mana except for Browbeat, which acts as the decks engine to draw cards to hit Sonic Seizures, Geistflames and Firebolts.

In the sideboard you have Runeflare Trap to fight combo/control, Skullcrack to stop Lifegain, Smash to Smithereens to hit Chalice or Thorn and Sphere decks. Guerrilla Tactics is a often forgotten about card that will surprise players at the top tables that think they can steamroll you with discard effects.Unplayable cards in your deck: Sonic Siezure, Needle Drop, Geistflame, Browbeat, Firebolt.

I think you have misunderstood the fundamentals of Burn, and are running too many inefficient spells as a result.

[Krimson Viper]

Unplayable cards in your deck: Sonic Siezure, Needle Drop, Geistflame, Browbeat, Firebolt.

I think you have misunderstood the fundamentals of Burn, and are running too many inefficient spells as a result.

I think you're being modest while commenting about his deck.

[Lyle Hopkins]

Hello, everyone,

It has been a while since I've last posted in this thread, but I thought I'd share my recent tournament results with y'all. I've been off Burn for the last year or so since I built Imperial Painter, but with Vancouver's quarterly Legacy tournament approaching, I figured I should play what I'm most familiar with and sleeve up Burn. I'm happy to report that my deck decision treated me quite well, putting me in the top four of approximately thirty to forty people. Luck was definitely on my side that day, and in retrospect I made several questionable plays, but regardless the deck felt great and performed well for me. This is the list I played for Vancouver, British Columbia's 2017 Winter Legacy Classic:

Legacy: Burn (R)
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Goblin Guide
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
2 Searing Blaze
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Chain Lightning
1 Exquisite Firecraft
11 Mountain
2 Arid Mesa
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Searing Blaze
3 Exquisite Firecraft

I've been playing a single copy of Sensei's Divining Top since I saw Yusuke Shimizu list (http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=9543&d=254782&f=LE)and I'm sold on it. Other combo decks, Storm for instance, are starting to do this and I think the card can really help out in the late game. That being said, I'm reluctant to run more than one copy as I never want to see two in my opening hand. I've also opted against playing Monastery Swiftspear, and this may be a meta-game decision, but with the amount of creatures in the format right now, I rather not depend on combat damage to win games. Concerning the mana base, I've taken some inspiration from Patrick Sullivan and his two SCG top eight performances with Burn (list 1 (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37491) & 2 (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=49446)), by deciding to play twenty-one lands. I've played twenty lands in Burn for most of my time with the deck, but by adding an additional mountain I was hoping to reduce the number of opening hands with one land and also make it easier to play around Daze and Spell Pierce. Finally, the four copies of Leyline of the Void were a concession to the increased popularity of Reanimator, while also having some utility against Storm and Lands. In hindsight, I would've been better served with cards like Searing Blood or Sulfuric Vortex, but I guess it's better to be safe than sorry when dealing with graveyard decks.

My match-ups were the following:
Round 1: Miracles (2-1 with a timely Exquisite Firecraft off the top of my deck in game three, facing down a lethal Monastery Mentor attack the following turn)
1-0
Round 2: Elves (2-0 with my opponent mulling to 3 in game two)
2-0
Round 3: Death & Taxes (draw with a greasy game 2 where I had to trade one for one until I was able to land an Ensnaring Bridge due to my opponent's Umezawa's Jitte)
2-0-1
Round 4: Maverick (2-1 with a misplay from me in game two resulting in a third game)
3-0-1
Round 5: Eldrazi (2-1)
4-0-1
Round 6: Stoneblade (intentional draw into top eight)
4-0-2
Quarterfinals: Splinter Twin (2-1)
Semifinals: Aggro Loam (1-2 with a misplay from me in game three possibly costing me the match)

It also looks like Garth Brewe (http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=14576&f=le) took down the Legacy Preservation Series 1k in Seattle with Burn this weekend, and another Burn player, Michael Wallio (http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=14576&d=287417&f=LE), made top eight. Congratulations to both of them! It seems like it's a good time to be playing Burn. :smile:

[Brael]

Been pondering Burn off and on for the last few months. I think I've come up with a breakthrough for my AI based deck building approach. I don't know when I'll have the time to actually build it because it involves a significant rewrite (hopefully I find the time to do it before summer) but I'm hopeful it will have good results. If things go as planned it should let the system evaluate new cards faster while giving more accurate results.

[scaryrawr]

Round 3: Death & Taxes (draw with a greasy game 2 where I had to trade one for one until I was able to land an Ensnaring Bridge due to my opponent's Umezawa's Jitte)


Hey Lyle,
Why do you bring in Ensnaring Bridge against D&T? I've seen a lot of people doing this in the reports, but never understood. D&T has a lot of 1 power creatures, plus with Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Ethersworn Canonist, Rishadan Port, and Sanctum Prelate I feel you can get stuck with cards in hand and difficulties getting them out (and difficulty getting out the bridge as well). They can also swing pump with Umezawa's Jitte to get under the bridge. They can also bounce bridge with Flickerwisp to swing for a turn, plus with Recruiter of the Guard, they can tutor for Flickerwisp (this is why I also don't feel safe when Sulfuric Vortex is out since they can bounce and gain life).

[Lyle Hopkins]

Hey Lyle,
Why do you bring in Ensnaring Bridge against D&T? I've seen a lot of people doing this in the reports, but never understood. D&T has a lot of 1 power creatures, plus with Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Ethersworn Canonist, Rishadan Port, and Sanctum Prelate I feel you can get stuck with cards in hand and difficulties getting them out (and difficulty getting out the bridge as well). They can also swing pump with Umezawa's Jitte to get under the bridge. They can also bounce bridge with Flickerwisp to swing for a turn, plus with Recruiter of the Guard, they can tutor for Flickerwisp (this is why I also don't feel safe when Sulfuric Vortex is out since they can bounce and gain life).

I agree with you. Death Taxes definitely has quite a few ways of dealing with Ensnaring Bridge. Maybe this was a mistake, but I felt like Ensnaring Bridge might be better than some number of Eidolon of the Great Revel on the draw because of Aether Vial. I used to think this match-up was in our favour, but current Death and Taxes lists seems quite threatening. I'd love to hear how everyone else is sideboarding for this match-up. I'm tempted to start playing some copies of Searing Blood in addition to the four Searing Blaze.

[Krimson Viper]

Hey Lyle,
Why do you bring in Ensnaring Bridge against D&T? I've seen a lot of people doing this in the reports, but never understood. D&T has a lot of 1 power creatures, plus with Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Ethersworn Canonist, Rishadan Port, and Sanctum Prelate I feel you can get stuck with cards in hand and difficulties getting them out (and difficulty getting out the bridge as well). They can also swing pump with Umezawa's Jitte to get under the bridge. They can also bounce bridge with Flickerwisp to swing for a turn, plus with Recruiter of the Guard, they can tutor for Flickerwisp (this is why I also don't feel safe when Sulfuric Vortex is out since they can bounce and gain life).

This is why I've stopped using Bridge. The only decks I see it's decent against is S&T and Reanimator. Reanimator is such a miserable match up and is a lot faster than S&T that I just want Bridge for S&T and that deck has essentially fallen off the face of this planet and now Bridge is no longer in my seventy five. Smash to Smithereens and sometimes Vortex if that's in my seventh five are what replaced Bridge. I use Needle, Smash, and my fourth Blaze to come in against D&T and take out Eidolon and PoP, in that order to combat them. Eidolon becomes too much of a liability and even though they sometimes just play out their non basics post board, I don't chance it anymore. I play against D&T a lot.

[scaryrawr]

This is why I've stopped using Bridge. The only decks I see it's decent against is S&T and Reanimator. Reanimator is such a miserable match up and is a lot faster than S&T that I just want Bridge for S&T and that deck has essentially fallen off the face of this planet and now Bridge is no longer in my seventy five. Smash to Smithereens and sometimes Vortex if that's in my seventh five are what replaced Bridge. I use Needle, Smash, and my fourth Blaze to come in against D&T and take out Eidolon and PoP, in that order to combat them. Eidolon becomes too much of a liability and even though they sometimes just play out their non basics post board, I don't chance it anymore. I play against D&T a lot.

I actually just re-added Bridge to my side lol. Lands was really popular, then I added it, and the Lands players disappeared (Price is already amazing here, but sometimes they can combo pretty quick, but they don't seem to be able to easily deal with Bridge).

It also seems useful against Eldrazi, since they can wreck our hand with Thought-Knot Seer. But I've found Price and Smashes tend to be enough here.

Show&Tell seems to be making a comeback (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/this-week-in-legacy-january-2017-statistics-and-dark-tempo-thresh) (and a couple appeared at my local weekly), which is the other reason I added it back, I also took out Pyrostatic Pillars from my side since Storm seems to be losing popularity (at least in my local meta), and added in Pyroblasts again. I haven't played since the switch though, so I'm not sure if this is a mistake yet. I'm hoping it works well also with the increase in BUG and True-Name Nemesis making a comeback as well.

Reanimator I bring in bridge, but I feel it's mostly going to be a dead card, especially if they get Iona, Shield of Emeria... It tends to be Grafdigger's Cage and Faerie Macabre being the shining stars in the matchup. I feel that the meta is shifting right now to correct for how out of control RB Reanimator has gotten over the last couple months, as well as BUG doing so well with Leovold, Emissary of Trest.

@Lyle, my strategy against D&T is a little weird. I tend to try to keep a land heavier hand (3-4 lands I hope for mostly fetches since I don't want to flood too badly, but I want to flood enough to not care about Rishadan Port or Thalia too much). I also bring in just smashes and blaze effects. I'll run 1-2 Sulfuric Vortex in my 75 and bring those in. I don't actually kill Thalia unless I have Goblin Guides (with Monastery Swiftspear I just prowess trigger damage to the face, so if they block the lose it or have to bounce it). Smashes I really like to save in hand for Umezawa's Jitte or Batterskull, but will take out an early game Aether Vial, later game Vial's I don't care about. I also feel keeping Grim Lavamancer active is the biggest thing for control creatures on the board. Mother of Runes and Stoneforge Mystic are the 2 creatures that really have to go immediately, and if they can hard cast and equip, that's when everything has to start going in response to them trying to the equip. I'll also Fireblast the Batterskull token if I feel I can recover from it, or block Lavamancer my own guys to prevent life gain or Jitte counters. Usually it doesn't come to the extreme bits in the last part.

[schtormy]

Heya Lyle, just read your list and I am wondering:
You don't play sulfuric vortex MD and only advocate for it as a SD choice over graveyard hate.

I find it really hard to win over miracle / maverick / jitte decks without a sulfuric vortex, and following Reddeckwinning trend's I now play 3 MD.

It happens to also help a lot against burn hate (which is coming back here and then) like Kor firewalker or warmth.

How do you cut it without this option? You rely entirely on Ensnaring bridge? But even then, the synergy between the 2 cards seems great to me.

I'm really interested in your reasoning and gameplans !

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk

[Lyle Hopkins]

Heya Lyle, just read your list and I am wondering:
You don't play sulfuric vortex MD and only advocate for it as a SD choice over graveyard hate.

I find it really hard to win over miracle / maverick / jitte decks without a sulfuric vortex, and following Reddeckwinning trend's I now play 3 MD.

It happens to also help a lot against burn hate (which is coming back here and then) like Kor firewalker or warmth.

How do you cut it without this option? You rely entirely on Ensnaring bridge? But even then, the synergy between the 2 cards seems great to me.

I'm really interested in your reasoning and gameplans !

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk

Hey, schtormy,

Thanks for reading my post. Don't get me wrong, I love Sulfuric Vortex, but I feel like whether I run it main-deck or in the sideboard, or not at all, is dependent on the meta-game. Of course if you're encountering Warmth and Kor Firewalker regularly, by all means, play Sulfuric Vortex. That being said, I don't think Sulfuric Vortex is as good as it used to be against Miracles since they started playing Monastery Mentor, both because of the clock presented by Monastery Mentor and the increased amount of 3 CMC spells to flip with Counterbalance (also Snapcaster Mage and Wear // Tear can be gross). I recognize that stopping the life gain from Deathrite Shaman and equipment can be very important, but most of these decks are pretty well equipped to deal with a card like Sulfuric Vortex (Deathrite Shaman decks have Abrupt Decay and Maverick has Qasali Pridemage). Sulfuric Vortex does seem okay against Death & Taxes though. Locally, I have started seeing quite a bit of Death & Taxes, so to be honest, I'll probably start playing a couple Sulfuric Vortex again.

Have y'all seen Patrick Sullivan's recent list from the SCG Team Constructed Open (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=111741)? I love it!

[scottpou]

I've been a very similar build as Sullivan for a while now. 18x mountains and flame rift/searing blood depending on the anticipated meta. It has been performing very well for myself.

[scaryrawr]

I've been a very similar build as Sullivan for a while now. 18x mountains and flame rift/searing blood depending on the anticipated meta. It has been performing very well for myself.

I did something similar with 2 Sulfuric Vortex in place of the 2 Mountains. My meta has been very Storm/Sneak&Show heavy, and I've missed playing Flame Rift (I thought it was Eidolon that didn't pair so well with it, but when you're not fetching, the 2 off of Eidolon means even less).

I went 2-2 beating RUG Delver and BUG Aluren. I lost to Storm and Sneak&Show.

I don't think his 20 Mountain list was a meta call or anything though, I think he just did the open to have fun with some friends before having his kid. On twitter (https://twitter.com/BasicMountain/status/828989147696230401) it sounded like he's planning on quitting/stepping away from playing magic for a while, and hasn't been too active in tournaments anyways.

That said though, I've seen a lot of MTGO reports on mtgtop8 where people have been going 5-0 with his exact list.

[schtormy]

Hey, schtormy,

Thanks for reading my post. Don't get me wrong, I love Sulfuric Vortex, but I feel like whether I run it main-deck or in the sideboard, or not at all, is dependent on the meta-game. Of course if you're encountering Warmth and Kor Firewalker regularly, by all means, play Sulfuric Vortex. That being said, I don't think Sulfuric Vortex is as good as it used to be against Miracles since they started playing Monastery Mentor, both because of the clock presented by Monastery Mentor and the increased amount of 3 CMC spells to flip with Counterbalance (also Snapcaster Mage and Wear // Tear can be gross). I recognize that stopping the life gain from Deathrite Shaman and equipment can be very important, but most of these decks are pretty well equipped to deal with a card like Sulfuric Vortex (Deathrite Shaman decks have Abrupt Decay and Maverick has Qasali Pridemage). Sulfuric Vortex does seem okay against Death & Taxes though. Locally, I have started seeing quite a bit of Death & Taxes, so to be honest, I'll probably start playing a couple Sulfuric Vortex again.

Have y'all seen Patrick Sullivan's recent list from the SCG Team Constructed Open (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=111741)? I love it!
It makes perfect sense, thank you for your answer.

Due to the amount of DnT around here I may still include it, but I admit that Sullivan's new deck is also tempting.

Quite to the point. Although lately with the amount of creatures in the meta I tend to trim down monastery swiftspear.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk

[Krimson Viper]

Here's a wild thought, has anyone thought about or tried Null Rod in the side as a replacement to Needle and artifact hate? I'm not saying completely remove artifact hate, but it allows variety to be used. It answers Top, Batterskull, Jitte, LED, Petal, Vial, and various other artifacts. Just a thought.

[Tokugawa]

Here's a wild thought, has anyone thought about or tried Null Rod in the side as a replacement to Needle and artifact hate? I'm not saying completely remove artifact hate, but it allows variety to be used. It answers Top, Batterskull, Jitte, LED, Petal, Vial, and various other artifacts. Just a thought.

Does it answer Chalice@1?

Smash to Smithereens is still the better card.

p.s. SFM is not an artifact, Nullrod does't affect SFM putting a batterskull into play.

[Krimson Viper]

Does it answer Chalice@1?

Smash to Smithereens is still the better card.

p.s. SFM is not an artifact, Nullrod does't affect SFM putting a batterskull into play.

I'm not sure if you're thick or didn't read what I wrote. I didn't say as a replacement to Smash, I said as a more universal answer to things that Needle doesn't tag, and I also didn't say remove Needle completely.

[silly]

Question. What cards does Burn typically run in its sideboard nowadays? I've built a somewhat standard list but haven't acquired any sideboard cards yet. Obviously, the exact 15 should probably be tailored to the meta I'm going to be facing, but I'd just like to ask what cards should be in my pool of "this card could potentially end up in my 15 card sideboard depending on what decks I expect".

For reference, this is the mainboard list I'm running.

4 Goblin Guide
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Monsatery Swiftspear
2 Grim Lavamancer

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
2 Searing Blaze
1 Sulfuric Vortex

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
11 Mountain

In terms of cards that could be potentially be nice to have and could make their way into a sideboard, I currently have two Red Elemental Blast, a Smash to Smithereens, two extra Sulfuric Vortex, two extra Grim Lavamancer, and an extra Searing Blaze.

I'm definitely going to pick up a playset of Exquisite Firecraft soon, since I heard the card is great in the Miracles matchup, and I'm planning on picking up two more Smash to Smithereens as well (do I need a fourth copy, or is x3 in the board fine?).

Other than that, what other cards should I look towards acquiring? I see Pyrostatic Pillar in a good number of lists. What decks is that good against (besides Storm, which seems obvious)? Also, what is currently seen as the best graveyard hate card? Is it Leyline of the Void? Relic of Progenitus? Faerie Macabre?

[ESG]

I'm not sure if you're thick or didn't read what I wrote. I didn't say as a replacement to Smash, I said as a more universal answer to things that Needle doesn't tag, and I also didn't say remove Needle completely.

Third-party opinion: Your original post wasn't clear, and your reply was abrasive. Please try to be nice.

You said: "Here's a wild thought, has anyone thought about or tried Null Rod in the side as a replacement to Needle and artifact hate? I'm not saying completely remove artifact hate, but it allows variety to be used. It answers Top, Batterskull, Jitte, LED, Petal, Vial, and various other artifacts. Just a thought."

In the portion I've bolded, you perhaps meant "as a supplement" or "as a combination," but the wording of your first sentence is ambiguous. Also, Tokugawa's point is correct about Null Rod not stopping Stoneforge Mystic cheating in the Batterskull.

I'm a big fan of Null Rod in general, but I wouldn't play the card in this deck. The flexibility you describe isn't worth it, in my opinion. If you are boarding out burn spells or creatures that are effectively burn spells, then your replacement ought to be more impactful than those spells would've been. The only decks I can think of that Null Rod completely shuts down are Affinity and MUD.

[ESG]

@silly: Your sideboard cards should be based on what you expect to play against and what you would be naturally weak against. Typically, those are decks that are faster than your average goldfish kill of Turn 4. The common elements of a Burn sideboard are usually graveyard hate, Storm hate, and then measures for the specific non-combo cards that hamper your game plan, such as Counterbalance, Chalice of the Void, Umezawa's Jitte, and Batterskull. The emergence of Black-Red Reanimator has caused a general shift to Leyline of the Void, Faerie Macabre, and Surgical Extraction, but if that deck isn't represented in your area, then Relic of Progenitus might be better (great against Tarmogoyfs and Gurmag Anglers). I've also seen plenty of Burn players running Grafdigger's Cage instead of some of those other picks. I don't think you need a full playset of Smash to Smithereens, but you'll need to determine what decks you're likely to face. Pyrostatic Pillar is good against any deck that casts a lot of spells, and it's also pretty good against cantrip decks when you're on the play.

[Krimson Viper]

Third-party opinion: Your original post wasn't clear, and your reply was abrasive. Please try to be nice.

You said: "Here's a wild thought, has anyone thought about or tried Null Rod in the side as a replacement to Needle and artifact hate? I'm not saying completely remove artifact hate, but it allows variety to be used. It answers Top, Batterskull, Jitte, LED, Petal, Vial, and various other artifacts. Just a thought."

In the portion I've bolded, you perhaps meant "as a supplement" or "as a combination," but the wording of your first sentence is ambiguous. Also, Tokugawa's point is correct about Null Rod not stopping Stoneforge Mystic cheating in the Batterskull.

I'm a big fan of Null Rod in general, but I wouldn't play the card in this deck. The flexibility you describe isn't worth it, in my opinion. If you are boarding out burn spells or creatures that are effectively burn spells, then your replacement ought to be more impactful than those spells would've been. The only decks I can think of that Null Rod completely shuts down are Affinity and MUD.
I'll try to be clearer in my posts. My assumption that people read beyond a single sentence was wrong.

I do understand that SFM cheats in Batterskull and Rod doesn't stop her from activating. I'm not an idiot, so pointing out blatant obviousness is insulting to a person's intelligence which is why I lashed out. What Rod stops is the problem of it bouncing away from a Smash spell on it. What SFM player gets Batterskull against Burn when they can't already pay the mana for it? Turn two SFM into Batterskull is a sure way to get stranded with a card in hand they can't land for a few turns.

But you're probably right. Going through interactions in my head, Rod comes in at the same speed as Eidolon and Needle names planeswalkers and Top. It's a cute play, I guess.

[scaryrawr]

But you're probably right. Going through interactions in my head, Rod comes in at the same speed as Eidolon and Needle names planeswalkers and Top. It's a cute play, I guess.

I don't run Needle or Rod in the side board. I feel there's not too many things I care about naming as Burn that either a Searing effect or Smash effect doesn't answer well. The Planeswalkers I'm aware of also don't usually demand that much attention (or if it does, hopefully some creature swings or Bolts are good enough without loosing too much throughput). I've ran it in Delver side boards, and it wrecks Affinity which is awesome. I feel against Miracles is where it helps most, but I feel that match up is already favored post side board.



In terms of cards that could be potentially be nice to have and could make their way into a sideboard, I currently have two Red Elemental Blast, a Smash to Smithereens, two extra Sulfuric Vortex, two extra Grim Lavamancer, and an extra Searing Blaze.


So, what others have said about side board being for the meta... BUT!

* Pyroblast > Red Elemental Blast in my opinion, you can target anything with a Pyroblast (yes, misdirect and divert exist, but eh), which allows for Prowess triggers on Monastery Swiftspear. Other than that, I'm not a big fan of running the Pyroblast effects though, but they do create some fun lines you can take, and let you fight Show and Tell a bit more
* Grim Lavamancer - I don't feel it's worth having more in the side (personal opinion), I'd rather have more Searing effects if I want more creature hate.

* Grafdigger's Cage I feel is really important to run since it can stop reanimator as well as limits how ANT can go off.
* Faerie Macabre or Surgical Extraction I feel is also good for those match ups, and Surgical pairs well with Pyroblast/Red Elemental Blast when I ran Pyroblast, it's nice to hit a Counterbalance and then extract it so you don't have to worry about it anymore. It's also nifty for Dredge, Lands, Loam, etc. Faerie is nice because it gets around Chancellor of the Annex triggers.
* Exquisite Firecraft I feel is a must, I run between 3-4 in the side.
* Pyrostatic Pillar is also really good against Storm (TES & ANT), as well as other decks that cantrip a ton.
* Ensnaring Bridge I feel is also a good card, but I tend to put other things in it's slot depending how I feel the meta is going to be.

[Krimson Viper]

Curious, what sideboard cards did you finally settle to? I've never been really happy with Needle.

[Thorgils]

I'm a new burn player, the deck is very nice but i have always the feeling that every player that have 3-4 leyline of sancity in the sideboard can win so easy against burn, noone have try to put an answer against leyline of sanctity (like destructive revelery), if no, how do you sideboard against a deck with leylines?

[Tokugawa]

I'm a new burn player, the deck is very nice but i have always the feeling that every player that have 3-4 leyline of sancity in the sideboard can win so easy against burn, noone have try to put an answer against leyline of sanctity (like destructive revelery), if no, how do you sideboard against a deck with leylines?

In Legacy, Burn is not as popular as in Modern. If a player consumes 3-4 slots on Leylines, his sidebord may have more poor performance against other matchups.

If an answer to Leylines is really really needed, Taiga + Destructive revelery may be acceptable.

[Krimson Viper]

In Legacy, Burn is not as popular as in Modern. If a player consumes 3-4 slots on Leylines, his sidebord may have more poor performance against other matchups.

If an answer to Leylines is really really needed, Taiga + Destructive revelery may be acceptable.

To branch further of what he has said here(which is very much correct), the decks that will use Sanctity will be decks that have no early interaction whatsoever and aren't fast. Decks that aren't popularly played in Legacy for the most part like G/w Post decks to give you an example. In these cases, you look for hands that are creature heavy and Price of Progress, Vortex, and Flame Rift hands. These decks are generally slow enough that creature beats are a threat and being creative can get you there. Honestly, if decks are running Sanctity, they came to the tournament ready to not lose to Burn and sort of deserve to win, IMHO. This is just another case of being Burn.

[Eldariel]

Way, way back in the day when various mono-W prison/stompy decks (Parfait, Geddon Stax, Angel Stompy, The Mighty Quinn, etc.) were more popular and UW Landstill relied on the W-half for anti-red tools (CoP: Red, Warmth, Worship, etc.) - and random stuff like Enchantress, RGW Loam Control/Aggro Loam, etc. was more popular, I used to play Anarchy in the mono-R Burn sideboards. Basically the only actual answer to cards like Leyline of Sanctity. However, it requires like 23 lands to cast with any consistency and does poorly vs. mana denial so it's just not a very good card; thus I'd indeed rather splash.

In today's format Anarchy is almost completely obsolete as anything but the niche mono-red answer to white enchantments - as said, Leyline is a relatively rare sideboard card simply because it's only so good vs. the field and there are generally more high value sideboard cards available; Leyline is pretty useless vs. the whole top tier. Anarchy is good vs. Death & Taxes if you can cast it, but between their Thalias, Ports and Wastes, that's easier said than done and it doesn't answer their Batterskulls or whatever anyways - and your usual gameplan is to outrace them anyways.

As already stated, Sulfuric Vortex is an excellent way to beat Leyline, as are the creatures and oft-times Price of Progress. You don't need to get that much in for Sulfuric Vortex to finish things off and most of the decks with Leyline lack fast clocks; Sulfuric also stops incidental lifegain like Batterskull or StP. However, generally you'll be a dog against a deck with 4 Leylines, which is fine: you won't really face many players with 4 Leylines.

[TheYoungPyromancer]

Hey, guys =)

I wanted to share with you that I recently modified my build, based on reddeckwinning's decklist from GP Louisville (https://reddeckwinning.com/2017/01/11/lighting-up-grand-prix-louisville/), and I've won the last two Legacy tournaments I've attended at my local game store since then (and actually ended up second in the tournament before these two). This list is consistent, for sure. I was afraid the lack of Monastery Swiftspear in this build would cause me to lose against Miracles, but this has not been the case so far.

I noticed that Patrick Sullivan's latest build has become pretty popular since its appearance on #SCGRICH. It certainly made an impact on MTGO and I'm sure many of us thought about sleeving a couple of Flame Rifts. However, I think it's important to remember how experienced of a player Patrick Sullivan is, and the list he ran was probably based on his prediction of that specific event's metagame.

I guess I just wanted to point out that John Galli's build is tremendously effective, and definitely more versatile on the battlefield than Sullivan's list. In my humble experience, it shows very consistent results. I believe it should be regarded as an important reference these days -it would be a shame that Sullivan's build took over the discussion just because Patrick has a greater impact on media.

[Krimson Viper]

Looks like us John's have been getting it right for awhile. ;)

http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpsea15/trial-winning-decklists-2015-11-07

[TonTo]

I took that reddeckwinning list to a great result at an 18 man tournament in Auckland on the weekend (split prize in top 4). Thanks for bringing it to my attention :)

[davide]

I took that reddeckwinning list to a great result at an 18 man tournament in Auckland on the weekend (split prize in top 4). Thanks for bringing it to my attention :)

The list is great... really. There is a kind of sideboard guide ? These are my first Time with the deck ...

[Krimson Viper]

So, new print Gideon basically kills this deck, yeah?

[Navsi]

So, new print Gideon basically kills this deck, yeah?

Doesn't he pretty much just say 'you gain 3 life' against this deck?

[Brael]

So, new print Gideon basically kills this deck, yeah?

Why would it kill the deck? I don't think it does anything to the deck. At it's worst it's a 3 mana card that doesn't effect the board, and gains the opponent 3 life.

[silly]

Any opinions on the new red one drop that just got spoiled? Does it have potential to replace Swiftspear/Lavamancer in builds? Do we play it alongside Swiftspear maybe?

[Krimson Viper]

Doesn't he pretty much just say 'you gain 3 life' against this deck?


Why would it kill the deck? I don't think it does anything to the deck. At it's worst it's a 3 mana card that doesn't effect the board, and gains the opponent 3 life.
If Miracles plays it, I can see it wreaking a good amount of havoc. It's a three drop, played on turn four with Counterbalance lock and you can't answer him. Turn after it would need a four damage spell to kill it, after that it's two spells. All of these spells need to go to their face, allowing Miracles to stabilize better. I can see this being a real hazard if Miracles runs it.


Any opinions on the new red one drop that just got spoiled? Does it have potential to replace Swiftspear/Lavamancer in builds? Do we play it alongside Swiftspear maybe?
It's interesting, but I don't think it's for Good in Legacy. It allows us to shrink fat creatures, but Grim answers creatures and Swiftspear has haste. It's a tough fit for the deck to squeeze him in for something that's doesn't offer face damage.

[scaryrawr]

@Krimson, about Gideon.

IMHO, I don't think the new Gideon fits the Miracles list too well, I think it makes their mana base too greedy for their style of play (then again, Mentor Miracles tries to be a Miracle deck that closes faster than normal Miracles, so we might see another variant pop up).

@silly, about Soul-Scar Mage
I think in the current legacy meta, he's not really enabling us. Grim Lavamancer can help control the board without wasting burn spells for it. Monastery Swiftspear and Goblin Guide tend to get some beats in before being removed (this guy doesn't have haste).

Satyr Firedancer allows us to burn face and control the board at the same time, and doesn't see play in legacy or mondern (he's crazy with Searing Blaze as well). (I kind of want to try firedancer against mentioning him...)

That said, I definitely think he's legacy playable. I think he wants to find a home in a grindier deck though. Maybe a Punishing Fire deck, just something where using burn spells as removal is not considered a loss.

[Brael]

Any opinions on the new red one drop that just got spoiled? Does it have potential to replace Swiftspear/Lavamancer in builds? Do we play it alongside Swiftspear maybe?

It doesn't. Your creatures need some guaranteed damage. That's why even Lavamancer is so fringe. Guide and Swiftspear work because they have haste, Eidolon works because it has pseudohaste (it's still getting in for 2 no matter what the opponent does). The new red one drop doesn't.


If Miracles plays it, I can see it wreaking a good amount of havoc. It's a three drop, played on turn four with Counterbalance lock and you can't answer him. Turn after it would need a four damage spell to kill it, after that it's two spells. All of these spells need to go to their face, allowing Miracles to stabilize better. I can see this being a real hazard if Miracles runs it.

I don't know what people have been running lately (haven't been following Burn much, but that should change in a couple weeks) Exquisite Firecraft is still pretty damn good though. If they +1, they're blanking a creature that's already blank. If they +1 again rather than emblem, the emblem isn't a threat. If they emblem he's still in burn range. Sure, you can say they win the game if they get a CB lock, tick this guy up to 5, and emblem... but any card at all wins them the game at that point, and in order to include Gideon they're giving up including other stuff.

[supachai]

If Miracles plays it, I can see it wreaking a good amount of havoc. It's a three drop, played on turn four with Counterbalance lock and you can't answer him. Turn after it would need a four damage spell to kill it, after that it's two spells. All of these spells need to go to their face, allowing Miracles to stabilize better. I can see this being a real hazard if Miracles runs it.


Miracles doesn't need this card. Does nothing for the gameplan, and Miracles rarely wants to be tapping out/almost tapping out on turn 4. Plus, if they already have Counterbalance lock, isn't the game already lost? Why does Gideon change anything?

[scaryrawr]

Miracles doesn't need this card. Does nothing for the gameplan, and Miracles rarely wants to be tapping out/almost tapping out on turn 4. Plus, if they already have Counterbalance lock, isn't the game already lost? Why does Gideon change anything?

The Counterbalance lock isn't as effective against burn as it use to be. Exquisite Firecraft is uncounterable most of the time, and you usually get to sneak in some spells as long as your draws aren't too horrible and you sequence them correctly at the right time. It's mostly when you add in Jace to the Countertop that things are really bad.

[irdoctor]

https://i.redd.it/gpzsck56c0ry.png

Harsh Mentor
1R

Whenever an opponent activates an ability of an artifact, creature, or land on the battlefield, if it isn't a mana ability, Harsh Mentor deals 2 damage to that player.

"Fight through it."

2/2

Seems like a card worth considering, hoses a lot of decks.

[supachai]

https://i.redd.it/gpzsck56c0ry.png

Harsh Mentor
1R

Whenever an opponent activates an ability of an artifact, creature, or land on the battlefield, if it isn't a mana ability, Harsh Mentor deals 2 damage to that player.

"Fight through it."

2/2

Seems like a card worth considering, hoses a lot of decks.

Definitely seems worth considering. Quick list of stuff it stops/is good against:

-Deathrite Shaman
-Umezawa's Jitte
-Sensei's Divining Top
-Scavenging Ooze
-Fetchlands
-Cavern Harpy
-Wirewood Symbiote/Quirion Ranger

Less effective but still relevant against:

-Aether Vial
-Stoneforge Mystic
-Knight of the Reliquary
-Griselbrand

Notably not very good against Reanimator, Infect, Delver decks, and Storm.

[Brael]

https://i.redd.it/gpzsck56c0ry.png

Harsh Mentor
1R

Whenever an opponent activates an ability of an artifact, creature, or land on the battlefield, if it isn't a mana ability, Harsh Mentor deals 2 damage to that player.

"Fight through it."

2/2

Seems like a card worth considering, hoses a lot of decks.

Sounds like an excellent card. I think it hits pretty much everyone. Fetchlands, Tops, DRS, Jitte, Vial, SFM, and more. Lots to like here.

[silly]

Definitely interested to see how Harsh Mentor plays in this deck.

I think the worst thing about him is that he can easily eat a removal spell immediately and have dealt zero damage, which is potentially a disaster for us. But if he sticks he seems super powerful against a lot of the meta right now.

[irdoctor]

Another interesting one: http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/byforce.html

By Force

XR

Sorcery

Destroy X target artifacts.

I know Smash to Smithereens is the usual sideboard hate for artifacts but this can get around Chalice of the Void. Playing against stompy, Chalice for 1 and 2 can lock you out the game, this for plays around both. The downside of course is that it doesn't do damage but the upside is you can destroy multiple lock pieces at once (E.G. Chalice for 1 and 2, play By Force x=2 destroys both and cannot be countered).

Maybe not good enough long run but if your meta is full of Eldrazi this may be a good option.

[MDHackbert]

Isn't Meltdown often better than this?

[irdoctor]

Isn't Meltdown often better than this?

If Chalice is on x=1 Meltdown would be countered (CMC =1 when x=0). Considering that is what Chalice is often set at, I don't think Meltdown would be better.

Edit: I just reread meltdown, very possible its better. I also missed it when checking through gatherer.

[LeoCop 90]

Shattering spree exists since ages, it gets around chalice and it also gets around traditional counterspells (the copies cannot be countered by chalice since they are not cast, and well, if they want to stop it with say a force of will they have to counter all the copies too). it is better than both meltdown and this new card, but still worse than smash to smithereens. We need our cards to do damage.

[silly]

Another interesting one: http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/byforce.html

By Force

XR

Sorcery

Destroy X target artifacts.

I know Smash to Smithereens is the usual sideboard hate for artifacts but this can get around Chalice of the Void. Playing against stompy, Chalice for 1 and 2 can lock you out the game, this for plays around both. The downside of course is that it doesn't do damage but the upside is you can destroy multiple lock pieces at once (E.G. Chalice for 1 and 2, play By Force x=2 destroys both and cannot be countered).

Maybe not good enough long run but if your meta is full of Eldrazi this may be a good option.

Why not just play Shattering Spree? Chalice doesn't counter replicated spells.

If you're trying to destroy artifacts through Chalice on 1, Shattering Spree lets you pay X+1 mana to destroy X artifacts (the original copy is countered, so you need to pay the extra mana). That is the same cost as this card, but is slightly more flexible. For example, you cannot destroy a single Chalice set to 2 with this card, but you can with Shattering Spree. If your opponent has a Chalice on both 1 and 2, but you only need to destroy one of them, you can pay RR with Shattering Spree whereas you need 2R with this card. Also, Shattering Spree is much more resilient against counterspells.

If you're trying to destroy artifacts that aren't Chalice (for example you're playing against Affinity or something), Shattering Spree gets you an extra artifact for your mana.

The only upside with this card is that you can spend non-red mana on it, but that upside is completely irrelevant if we're mono-red.

[scaryrawr]

Definitely seems worth considering. Quick list of stuff it stops/is good against:

-Deathrite Shaman
-Umezawa's Jitte
-Sensei's Divining Top
-Scavenging Ooze
-Fetchlands
-Cavern Harpy
-Wirewood Symbiote/Quirion Ranger

Less effective but still relevant against:

-Aether Vial
-Stoneforge Mystic
-Knight of the Reliquary
-Griselbrand

Notably not very good against Reanimator, Infect, Delver decks, and Storm.

Harsh Mentor I think I'm going to try as a 3-4 of. It's relevant in most match ups, I get if Eidolon of the Great Revel eats a removal spell it usually at least gets 2 in, but I feel you can sequence early game cards in a way where this guy probably won't eat it (Miracles players typically swords Goblin Guide after the reveal trigger, people typically swords Eidolon ASAP), or if you draw both you can order it based on which one you're willing to lose in the match up. He's only relevant early game though, so running less than 3 I feel isn't ideal, because if you get him out too late, he does nothing. I think he can also end up being a dud, but I really want to try him out to find out.

I feel he's easiest to squeeze in with Sullivan's List, I've been testing something similar online, and I've cut 2 Mountains and 1 Flame Rift 3 Magma Jet. I think you could cut the Jets and 1 Monastery Swiftspear for him.

In the standard fetch list with Grim Lavamancer and Searing Blazes it's a lot harder to choose what to cut. If you cut Lavamancer and Blaze, there's not too much reason to play fetches, I feel Swiftspear would be what you cut or Sulfuric Vortex with a combination of some other cards, but my worry isn't won't curve out as nicely.

[ThomasDowd]

Harsh mentor just seems browbeat-y to me. I don't think it represents enough guaranteed damage to be worth it.

Eidolon punishes your opponents for playing magic, Harsh Mentor punishes your opponent for doing advanced (or fancy) things.

[MrFrowny_]

Harsh mentor just seems browbeat-y to me. I don't think it represents enough guaranteed damage to be worth it.

Eidolon punishes your opponents for playing magic, Harsh Mentor punishes your opponent for doing advanced (or fancy) things.

So do you not think Harsh Mentor is worth it? I admit I kind of over-valued him when I saw the spoiler, and figured "oh he's busted, automatic 4-of". After analyzing him a bit more, I think he's worth a sideboard slot at best. Yes, harsh mentor is good but I can't think of something worthy of being taken out for him, except lavamancer/swiftspear.

[silly]

Harsh mentor just seems browbeat-y to me. I don't think it represents enough guaranteed damage to be worth it.

Eidolon punishes your opponents for playing magic, Harsh Mentor punishes your opponent for doing advanced (or fancy) things.

I mean, certain decks have a pretty tough time playing magic without running headfirst into Harsh Mentor. But I agree that Eidolon is a lot better. Basically anything your opponent does triggers Eidolon. A lot of things trigger Mentor, but there will always be some outs for your opponent (any removal spell unlocks their activated abilities). I'm interested in trying Mentor, but I'm very wary about him because I'm not sure this deck can support a creature that ends up dealing no damage a good portion of the time.

[ThomasDowd]

So do you not think Harsh Mentor is worth it? I admit I kind of over-valued him when I saw the spoiler, and figured "oh he's busted, automatic 4-of". After analyzing him a bit more, I think he's worth a sideboard slot at best. Yes, harsh mentor is good but I can't think of something worthy of being taken out for him, except lavamancer/swiftspear.


Mentor:
I too was very excited when I saw him. Seemed great but then I tried to figure out where I wanted him, and couldn't come up with any good places. From a "philosophy of fire" standpoint he stinks. All of your cards need to be damage. grim lavamancer and guide get passes since they are insane cost to damage ratios that you control. Guide is damage the turn he comes down. Lavamancer is repeatable utility. Even as a sideboard card there are higher impact cards for the matchups that have activated abilities.

Giving your opponents the choice on when and how to take damage is not great. all scenarios just seem like magical Christmasland. I dunno, if someone can show me consistent value and utility I'll bite but I don't think its that good.

Swiftspear:
I don't even like swiftspear, without gas its a bad 1/2. When I played UR Delver I hated that card since all my creatures, save delver, were just pathetic dinguses without spells. In the combo matchups its awesome but barring facing down fast kills I'm not sold, maybe I need to play it in more dedicated burn. I do understand it in the right meta.


I mean, certain decks have a pretty tough time playing magic without running headfirst into Harsh Mentor. But I agree that Eidolon is a lot better. Basically anything your opponent does triggers Eidolon. A lot of things trigger Mentor, but there will always be some outs for your opponent (any removal spell unlocks their activated abilities). I'm interested in trying Mentor, but I'm very wary about him because I'm not sure this deck can support a creature that ends up dealing no damage a good portion of the time.

keyword: certain. I just want consistency

[MrFrowny_]

Swiftspear: I don't even like swiftspear, without gas its a bad 1/2. When I played UR Delver I hated that card since all my creatures, save delver, were just pathetic dinguses without spells. In the combo matchups its awesome but barring facing down fast kills I'm not sold, maybe I need to play it in more dedicated burn. I do understand it in the right meta.

keyword: certain. I just want consistency

I agree, I really dislike swiftspear in burn because of how many creatures there are in legacy at the moment. For me, it's always an x-1 trade with any creature in the way and makes you run out of gas way faster than usual because you're trying to pump swiftspear.

[Kobra_D]

I agree, I really dislike swiftspear in burn because of how many creatures there are in legacy at the moment. For me, it's always an x-1 trade with any creature in the way and makes you run out of gas way faster than usual because you're trying to pump swiftspear.

Good Morning Everyone,

I've tried looking back a little bit for the answer to this but I didn't find anything really helpful.

I'm running a sideboard atm with 4 pieces of graveyard hate. But in the case my reanimator opponent is able to stick Iona on red then do we have any good outs? Any super secret tech?

Conceding to inevitability never feels great and mulliganing to our SB cards could easily go poorly.

[MrFrowny_]

Good Morning Everyone,

I've tried looking back a little bit for the answer to this but I didn't find anything really helpful.

I'm running a sideboard atm with 4 pieces of graveyard hate. But in the case my reanimator opponent is able to stick Iona on red then do we have any good outs? Any super secret tech?

Conceding to inevitability never feels great and mulliganing to our SB cards could easily go poorly.

You could run Ashen Rider in your sideboard if they try and show and tell Iona. And if you already have 4 pieces of gravehate, then that's as good as it's gonna get.

[scaryrawr]

Good Morning Everyone,

I've tried looking back a little bit for the answer to this but I didn't find anything really helpful.

I'm running a sideboard atm with 4 pieces of graveyard hate. But in the case my reanimator opponent is able to stick Iona on red then do we have any good outs? Any super secret tech?

Conceding to inevitability never feels great and mulliganing to our SB cards could easily go poorly.

Legit... no.

If you're lucky, I've found Grim Lavamancer and being ahead enough on damage with cards in the graveyard. Ensnaring Bridge can help since it'll allow you to draw more fetches...

I wouldn't say you have to mull for the SB card (some will disagree, which is fair since Reanimator can be a turn 1 combo), but you have to have the most excellent 7 you can. You either have to be the faster combo deck (turn 3 kill hand), or be able to stop them from comboing off.

If you really dislike it, you can try splashing other colors for answers in removal (white has exile, black has edict, blue has bounce, etc.). I've ran Boros, Rakdos, Mardu, Jeskai, etc. It's fun to try (I think not enough people experiment in Legacy). Or run more graveyard hate (SB is really meta dependent). There's also some Devoid spells which you can cast while Iona is out (they're not that good though, so I don't recommend this). I recommend mono red personally though.

[Lyle Hopkins]

Whether or not you agree with the recent banning of Sensei's Divining Top, it is quite possible that Burn is well positioned in the new meta-game. At the very least, we can probably free up some side board space by cutting Exquisite Firecraft and moving some copies of Searing Blaze / Searing Blood to the main. I'd love to see some discussion on how we can adjust our 75 in anticipation of the new meta-game now that Miracles is gone.

[Stuart]

Whether or not you agree with the recent banning of Sensei's Divining Top, it is quite possible that Burn is well positioned in the new meta-game. At the very least, we can probably free up some side board space by cutting Exquisite Firecraft and moving some copies of Searing Blaze / Searing Blood to the main. I'd love to see some discussion on how we can adjust our 75 in anticipation of the new meta-game now that Miracles is gone.

Vortex can probably move to the board and/or get cut. Shusher and Barbarian Ring are non-essential.

Are we still interested in Harsh Mentor? It's decent against all of Legacy, but looked most exciting vs Miracles.

[scaryrawr]

Vortex can probably move to the board and/or get cut. Shusher and Barbarian Ring are non-essential.

Are we still interested in Harsh Mentor? It's decent against all of Legacy, but looked most exciting vs Miracles.

I don't think cutting Sulfuric Vortex completely is a good idea. It wasn't there just for Miracles, you have Batterskull, Umezawa's Jitte, Griselbrand, Deathrite Shaman, etc. I think Smash to Smithereens is the best to deal with the equipment, but I've been able to race Griselbrand solely because of Vortex. Funny thing too, it can kill Planeswalkers, and is difficult for many to remove.

I think Harsh Mentor is still worth trying, he still hits a lot in legacy, but I think there's so much removal in the format right now, he might end up just being a dud.

I think if Elves gets more attention, he's really good against the Wirewood Symbiote&Elvish Visionary combo, as well as Quirion Ranger and Deathrite. He also helps prevent the chump block + bounce they do, since they don't have any incentive to do it anymore.

He also is good against equipment, Mother of Runes, Stoneforge Mystic, and Aether Vial strategy, I think it's also funny since if someone tries to Wasteland themselves in response to Price of Progress we at least get 2 off the mentor trigger.

He also hits Thespian's Stage, Rishadan Port, Ghost Quarter, fetch lands, etc.

I think we really have to wait and see where meta goes.

[Nysrol]

I think its a safe bet for a bit of time while the meta shifts and settles. Right now I am running the P.Sully list and am moving [Flame Rift] to the board for [Searing Blaze] as i expect a lot more creatures in my local meta and would like to reduce my own damage taken. I don't know about [Harsh Mentor] He looks OK but I don't think he is better then 3 to the face or our current creatures.

[Brael]

You're all going to think I'm insane, but I would recommend Scab-Clan Berserkers. A big removal filled deck that can get rid of them just disappeared, and being able to pair them and Eidolons gives you much better consistency in dealing with combos.

[Nysrol]

You're all going to think I'm insane....

Well you arnt wrong... But hey try it, and report back

[Brael]

Well you arnt wrong... But hey try it, and report back

I've used it for months as a 1-2 of. It works well in certain matchups. It was great against Miracles (not that that matters much anymore), and great against Storm, on the play. Usually good for 4-5 damage against Delver too.

[scaryrawr]

You're all going to think I'm insane, but I would recommend Scab-Clan Berserkers. A big removal filled deck that can get rid of them just disappeared, and being able to pair them and Eidolons gives you much better consistency in dealing with combos.

I don't think it's too insane. I just feel it's a tad slow, and kind of falls into the Harsh Mentor camp where it might not get any damage in.

I also feel it runs into the issue that D&T had with new Thalia (it didn't curve well).

I'm always for more Eidolon effects though (my general rule for Eidolon is if your life total is greater than your opponents just keep slamming them on the table).

I just don't want to get too crazy, I expect the meta to shift quite a bit for a while.

[Brael]

I don't think it's too insane. I just feel it's a tad slow, and kind of falls into the Harsh Mentor camp where it might not get any damage in.


That's a legitimate criticism. But, haste does go a long ways towards being able to cast something when you have an opening to get damage in. I think it's fair to look at the minimum damage as 2 due to haste. Problem is, 2 minimum for 3 mana is still a big ask when Firecraft is a guaranteed 4. On the other hand, I've found that if Berserker is getting in for 2, it's usually able to get in for 4+ and the Eidolon into Berserker curves are ridiculous, particularly in games 2/3 where people take out removal for us.



I'm always for more Eidolon effects though (my general rule for Eidolon is if your life total is greater than your opponents just keep slamming them on the table).


Something I've been wanting to try for awhile is 4 Pyrostatic Pillar, 4 Eidolon, 4 Berserker. I think it's a little too much though, because opposing decks can legitimately race without casting spells into them with something like T1 Delver into holding an FoW for a Bolt (which then makes us take a bunch, while they only take 1).

[scaryrawr]

That's a legitimate criticism. But, haste does go a long ways towards being able to cast something when you have an opening to get damage in. I think it's fair to look at the minimum damage as 2 due to haste. Problem is, 2 minimum for 3 mana is still a big ask when Firecraft is a guaranteed 4. On the other hand, I've found that if Berserker is getting in for 2, it's usually able to get in for 4+ and the Eidolon into Berserker curves are ridiculous, particularly in games 2/3 where people take out removal for us.

Something I've been wanting to try for awhile is 4 Pyrostatic Pillar, 4 Eidolon, 4 Berserker. I think it's a little too much though, because opposing decks can legitimately race without casting spells into them with something like T1 Delver into holding an FoW for a Bolt (which then makes us take a bunch, while they only take 1).

I'd argue the haste bit. The reason Goblin Guide is sided out on the draw by many is because it's not guaranteed to get any damage in, even as a 1 drop (I think crimson_viper or someone was surprised I didn't side them out on the CK stream against D&T).

Berserker being a 3 drop, is in the camp of never guaranteeing damage.

I think Berserker main is better than Pyrostatic Pillar. The main thing holding Pillar back is the lack of a body. The reason we can slam down multiple Eidolons is he's a 2/2 and can swing in to make sure you're always ahead. Pillar has a higher risk of locking yourself out of the game, and you never want to see more than 1 (except against some Combo decks since it's impossible for them to win through it).

I'm kind of tempted right now to run Pyroblast again in the side. They pair well with Surgical Extraction, and I feel if we're more worried about S&T, Reanimator, and Storm and Miracles is gone, we might be able to focus more on our combo fight without stretching too thin.

[Munchyman]

Call me nostalgic. I'd rather see Ball Lightning make a comeback before Scab-Clan.

[scaryrawr]

Call me nostalgic. I'd rather see Ball Lightning make a comeback before Scab-Clan.

I was actually thinking about Ball Lightning and Hellspark Elemental today, I use to play them, and hellspark was kind of our card advantage.

But, I think D&T and other Thalia agro decks will quickly prevent them still. I think it's awesome to be able to trample over a goyf though lol.

I don't plan on changing my list too much for the moment, I think I'm doing 3/1 split of Searing Blaze/Sulfuric Vortex main instead of 2/2 split, and I'm trying out some different side board stuff. Won't get a chance to try it until Thursday though.

[Krimson Viper]

I can finally leave Shardless and return home!

4 GG
2 G Lavaman
4 Eidolon

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain
4 Spike
4 Blaze
4 PoP
4 R. Bolt
2 Vortex
4 Fireblast

11 Fetches
8 Mountains
1 B. Ring

Sideboard
2 Needle
1 G. Lavaman
4 Smash
3 Firecraft
3 Macabre
2 Trap

I'm thinking I can drop Blaze to three main one board and G. Man into three main. I like removing Needle completely out and putting Harsh Mentor in its place. Not sure if I want Firecraft at three. Maybe down to two, moving one into another Harsh Mentor or a singleton Needle.

I like Trap because it's doing what I need a hate card against Storm to do: buy time for Eidolon to land or burn them out.

I like Ring because I still have plenty of Delver decks and I like to sneak damage across, which is another reason why I'm still running Firecraft. I'm comfortable dropping down to two side because I can see Mentor answering things in my meta better than Needle or Firecraft.

Swiftspear is gone because my meta is heavily creature decks and increasing higher in popularity, so I don't see a need to run a creature that will be blocked or just deal one to two points of damage. Three being the most. That level of variance is disturbing me.

And last, but not least, FUCK YOU MIRACLES AND YOUR LITTLE DOG, TOO

Decks I see making a come back: Blade decks, Maverick, and RUG Delver

[amalek0]

So i'm returning to burn after not having played it in a couple of years (and not much legacy at all in the last 18 months). Ironically, the reasons are completely unrelated to the miracles banning. However, in the interim time I've actually still been slowly picking up foils for the deck, so ironically I have 80-90% of the cards for the deck in foil.

I have a few questions for those of you that've been on burn more recently:

1. Monastery swiftspear: Is it worth playing in legacy? I know it's considered to be almost better than eidolon in the Modern legal burn deck, but I have no clue what the powerlevel considerations are for legacy here. My gut instinct is that it's high-variance and probably not as good with the imminent return of midrange decks.

2. Pyrostatic pillar: When I last played burn, this was basically a 4-of in the 75/often in the main. Where does it stand now as an addition to eidolon? My gut says it's fine to have extra copies of the taxing effect handy when the meta looks like it's about to start including a lot of combo, because pillar is pretty good against brainstorm and friends, but there was also a lot less in the way of creatures in the format at the time, so I don't know how well it's aged.

3. Shard Volley: I don't see people playing a singleton copy in their lists at all--what's the downside? You're going to play 20-21 lands to optimize the opening hands anyway, so it's not like you'll frequently have hands that super-tax your available mountains. Is there a reason we don't play the singleton as basically bolt number five?

4. Is searing blaze or searing blood a better option nowadays? Is one a better mainboard card and the other a better sideboard card? My gut reaction is that they're both high-variance, because creatureless decks are a thing. Is playing them at all related to the value of Monastery swiftspear? I feel like swiftspear is better when there aren't creatures and blaze is better when there are, but that together they're really good when your opponent does have creatures. Is there a consensus on the variance of playing them together, either/or, or not at all?

5. Exquisite firecraft: Clearly miracles is no longer an issue, but are these things still relevant enough to be worth keeping in the board?

6. Ensnaring bridge: used to be a sideboard staple. Why has it fallen out of favor, or is it no longer a common post-board strategy to hide behind bridge with some lavamancers in creature-based matchups like elves/d&t/goblins/food chain?

[scaryrawr]

So i'm returning to burn after not having played it in a couple of years (and not much legacy at all in the last 18 months). Ironically, the reasons are completely unrelated to the miracles banning. However, in the interim time I've actually still been slowly picking up foils for the deck, so ironically I have 80-90% of the cards for the deck in foil.

I have a few questions for those of you that've been on burn more recently:

1. Monastery swiftspear: Is it worth playing in legacy? I know it's considered to be almost better than eidolon in the Modern legal burn deck, but I have no clue what the powerlevel considerations are for legacy here. My gut instinct is that it's high-variance and probably not as good with the imminent return of midrange decks.

2. Pyrostatic pillar: When I last played burn, this was basically a 4-of in the 75/often in the main. Where does it stand now as an addition to eidolon? My gut says it's fine to have extra copies of the taxing effect handy when the meta looks like it's about to start including a lot of combo, because pillar is pretty good against brainstorm and friends, but there was also a lot less in the way of creatures in the format at the time, so I don't know how well it's aged.

3. Shard Volley: I don't see people playing a singleton copy in their lists at all--what's the downside? You're going to play 20-21 lands to optimize the opening hands anyway, so it's not like you'll frequently have hands that super-tax your available mountains. Is there a reason we don't play the singleton as basically bolt number five?

4. Is searing blaze or searing blood a better option nowadays? Is one a better mainboard card and the other a better sideboard card? My gut reaction is that they're both high-variance, because creatureless decks are a thing. Is playing them at all related to the value of Monastery swiftspear? I feel like swiftspear is better when there aren't creatures and blaze is better when there are, but that together they're really good when your opponent does have creatures. Is there a consensus on the variance of playing them together, either/or, or not at all?

5. Exquisite firecraft: Clearly miracles is no longer an issue, but are these things still relevant enough to be worth keeping in the board?

6. Ensnaring bridge: used to be a sideboard staple. Why has it fallen out of favor, or is it no longer a common post-board strategy to hide behind bridge with some lavamancers in creature-based matchups like elves/d&t/goblins/food chain?

1. Swiftspear: People are mixed on it, it's definitely good enough to see legacy play. I run 3, but it's normally one of the first cards cut for trying something different (that's why there's only 3 lol). I'm planning on cutting it to try Harsh Mentor. I like it against Chalice of the Void decks since you can still trigger Prowess.

2. Pillar: Very meta dependent, definitely worth just having around.

3. Volley: We play Fireblast (which also eats our lands) as a finisher. My question is what do you cut for it? And why is it better than what you're cutting? Mono-Red Modern burn tends to run it since they don't have access to Chain Lightning. If you're hoping for a 1 of top deck type of card, Thunderous Wrath, but in Burn, we don't have card draw, or card filtering, so I don't recommend running a 1 of, except for Sulfuric Vortex. I'm very much against Shard Volley, I don't even consider it for my Pauper/Modern lists.

4. Blaze is better with fetches, and tends to be more well rounded, Blaze also does not need to kill the creature to deal damage to the player, where Blood has to. Blood however can get around Leyline of Sanctity which currently doesn't see too much play in legacy, so isn't too big of a concern. I tend to have 2-3 blaze main board and 1-2 blood in the side. Blaze also has 2 targets, so it still resolves even if 1 becomes invalid.

5. Firecraft: It's really good for the Burn mirror... jk jk (but seriously, I always brought all of them in when playing the mirror). I've actually removed all of them from my side, I haven't played any tournaments since the ban though, but I think it's worth trying cards with more utility against the rest of the meta.

6. Bridge: Very meta dependent. Mostly for use against your cheating in a big fatty decks (I don't agree with bringing it in against Elves, D&T, or Goblins). Lands has decreased in popularity, Reanimator was crazy popular for a bit, so graveyard hate was your best bet, now Show&Tell variants as well as Storm are back on the rise, so I think it might get popular again, people are also predicting Lands getting popular again where Bridge can be useful.

I wouldn't buy into a foil side board at this time if you're just getting back into legacy. The meta is going to shift a lot, so I'd just go with a mediocre side board until it starts to stabilize, or unless you're planning on going to play in tournaments that are streaming.

[TheYoungPyromancer]

Fellow Pyromancers,

I feel Sensei's Divining Top being banned affects us in a bad way, as Miracles was a very favorable matchup. I'm guessing we have 3 to 4 slots in our sideboard to think about now that Exquisite Firecraft won't be needed as much.

I would love to learn about your recent sideboard choices in order to have a better idea of where the metagame -and therefore the Burn sideboard- is shifting towards. For the moment I'll share with you what I used during the last tournament I attended, at my LGS:

3 Ashen Rider
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Pyroblast
2 Pyroclasm
2 Pithing Needle
1 Searing Blaze

[scaryrawr]

Harsh Mentor Report!

Don't run him! (I know, I know, you all warned me)...

He's kind of just a vanilla 2/2 for 2 (which is what I expected, but was hoping I was wrong). I've only tried him in one 4 round tournament, and unless your meta is purely D&T... He's not too grand (in a pure D&T meta though, he's awesome). He only seems to work on the play as well, and has to land turn 2. Maybe if the meta shifts to favor him, but I'm not sure what it'll be like until we get there.

Round 1 - UR Delver
I got one activation game 3 when they Grim Lavamancered my face.

Round 2 - BYE - Easy win guys...

Round 3 - Portent Miracles
I got 1 activation from a fetch.

Round 4 - True-Name BUG (I think...).
Did nothing... Even though they play Deathrite Shaman!

[tescrin]

I'm mildly surprised Mentor didn't work; but it makes sense it would work better in Delver decks [though the jury is still out.]
That's because Delver attacks your manabase so you *have* to keep activating DRS and Fetches.

That said, Mentor is going to be good against anyone trying to use Jitte or DRS or Scooze to stay above water. He's probably sideboard.

[scaryrawr]

I'm mildly surprised Mentor didn't work; but it makes sense it would work better in Delver decks [though the jury is still out.]
That's because Delver attacks your manabase so you *have* to keep activating DRS and Fetches.

That said, Mentor is going to be good against anyone trying to use Jitte or DRS or Scooze to stay above water. He's probably sideboard.

Yeah, I think he works best in a mana denial deck, I think Imperial Taxes is trying him, and I agree he'd probably work well in a Delver shell as well (Stifle and Wasteland I feel pair with him better). I think if you run Simian Spirit Guide or Lotus Petal so you can jam him early, but then I feel you throw off a lot of the consistency (I don't agree with SSG or LP in burn...).

I'd rather have Sulfuric Vortex for decks trying to stay above water, or maybe Sudden Shocks. I might try him more in the future as the meta rotates around... for now I don't feel he hits enough to be in the 75 yet.

[Kanti]

Thoughts on maindeck Pyroblast/REBs? Kind of liking the idea of them over Lava Spike, and maybe cut x1 of something else. Less reach, sure, but runnign 5-6 blasts can really change some matches. This WildWest meta looks prime for it.

[scaryrawr]

Thoughts on maindeck Pyroblast/REBs? Kind of liking the idea of them over Lava Spike, and maybe cut x1 of something else. Less reach, sure, but runnign 5-6 blasts can really change some matches. This WildWest meta looks prime for it.

Online or paper? I don't think we've seen enough paper events to make a call like that, but it might be different in your local meta.

I'm wondering what problem you're trying to solve with it? My main concern is Sneak&Show's rise in popularity, but I feel other than that, it's not super effective. (if you're worried about spells getting countered, Exquisite Firecraft is still pretty good.

We've also seen Maverick come back in some places, Jund, etc. I think, Smashes, Searing effects, and other burning answers tend to be better, and then some flexible combo hate (Ensnaring Bridge, Grafdigger's Cage, etc.).

Below is the breakdown of what was played during the MBH 1K from yesterday (I know it's not a reflection of the overall meta, and there were only 50ish people). But the meta is still working itself out. I'd say stick with the stock build right now for the best all rounder.

http://i.imgur.com/Vh4ySfU.png

[Admiral Nobeard]

So I've been getting into burn myself the past few months, but I still have a few questions before I take this to any kind of tournament. My usual go-to list is RG Lands, and when I'm goldfishing burn, it feel like Lands in that it can also just combo off and throw 11-14 to the face (optimally, that is). Is this a usual occurrence or am I giving myself too much goldfish credit? Additionally, how well positioned do you think burn is right now since Miracles is gone? I've got bets on it being a good meta choice due to the high number of greedy mana base decks I've seen running around.

Here's my current list I'm running now after doing research and personal testing. It seems like the pretty stock list compared to other lists I've compiled, but with my own juice in the form of Bedlam Reveler.

4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2 Bedlam Reveler

4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rift Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast
4 Lava Spike
3 Sulfuric Vortex

4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Barbarian ring
11 Mountain

Sideboard:

1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Sudden Shock
4 Searing Blood
2 Volcanic Fallout
2 Vexing Shusher
2 Exquisite Firecraft
2 Smash to Smithereens

I know my board needs work to be more varied, so it's still in development. Any advice would be great since I'm relatively new to burn.

[scaryrawr]

So I've been getting into burn myself the past few months, but I still have a few questions before I take this to any kind of tournament. My usual go-to list is RG Lands, and when I'm goldfishing burn, it feel like Lands in that it can also just combo off and throw 11-14 to the face (optimally, that is). Is this a usual occurrence or am I giving myself too much goldfish credit? Additionally, how well positioned do you think burn is right now since Miracles is gone? I've got bets on it being a good meta choice due to the high number of greedy mana base decks I've seen running around.

Here's my current list I'm running now after doing research and personal testing. It seems like the pretty stock list compared to other lists I've compiled, but with my own juice in the form of Bedlam Reveler.

4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2 Bedlam Reveler

4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rift Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast
4 Lava Spike
3 Sulfuric Vortex

4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Barbarian ring
11 Mountain

Sideboard:

1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Sudden Shock
4 Searing Blood
2 Volcanic Fallout
2 Vexing Shusher
2 Exquisite Firecraft
2 Smash to Smithereens

I know my board needs work to be more varied, so it's still in development. Any advice would be great since I'm relatively new to burn.

I wouldn't recommend the Bedlam Reveler, if you've resolved 6 instants and/or sorceries, chances are your opponents already dead, I get at times that may not be the case, but that's where Grim Lavamancer gives you the extra reach, and ability to control creature based decks early on. If it's putting up good results for you though, I think I'd like to try it out lol.

Since you run fetches, I prefer Searing Blaze over the Searing Blood, I'd actually recommend mixing them (I have 3 Searing Blaze in my 75, and 1 Searing Blood, both can be used very creatively, but Searing Blaze tends to have more guaranteed damage since it has 2 targets, instead of one. Blood though can get through Leyline of Sanctity since it doesn't target the player (but it's not a common situation currently).

Vexing Shusher I guess is there for the Chalice of the Void decks? Which are in mixed popularity (some are gaining, some are losing), but tend to not be too big of a problem since they tend to have greedier mana bases. I think you'll find an additional Smash to Smithereens nice, or running Shattering Spree, Spree is nice because the copies are put directly on the stack and dodge Chalice, but it tends to lose damage.

Reanimator is gaining popularity again, as well as Sneak&Show. I'd try running some forms of graveyard hate and/or Ensnaring Bridge.

D&T isn't too bad and mentor is gone, so I don't recommend the Sulfur Elemental, I also feel it's redundant with Volcanic Fallout. The match up is really bad while learning it.

Exquisite Firecraft I think is ok to have as a 2 of, but feels redundant with Vexing Shusher, I find there not needed as much as before, just don't get over greedy with Fireblast.

For the Volcanic Fallout I like Pyroclasm or Electrickery. Pyroclasm is sorcery speed but costs 1 less (it can be countered, and it doesn't hurt players though), and Electrickery can be overloaded, but only does 1 damage instead of 2 (it also can be countered, and doesn't hurt players). The reason I prefer the 2 drop ones, are because the match ups where I even consider having a board wipe are things like Belcher, or TES where they try to go off on turn 1, and you want to be able to clear the tokens before you're dead.

[Admiral Nobeard]

I wouldn't recommend the Bedlam Reveler, if you've resolved 6 instants and/or sorceries, chances are your opponents already dead, I get at times that may not be the case, but that's where Grim Lavamancer gives you the extra reach, and ability to control creature based decks early on. If it's putting up good results for you though, I think I'd like to try it out lol.

Since you run fetches, I prefer Searing Blaze over the Searing Blood, I'd actually recommend mixing them (I have 3 Searing Blaze in my 75, and 1 Searing Blood, both can be used very creatively, but Searing Blaze tends to have more guaranteed damage since it has 2 targets, instead of one. Blood though can get through Leyline of Sanctity since it doesn't target the player (but it's not a common situation currently).

Vexing Shusher I guess is there for the Chalice of the Void decks? Which are in mixed popularity (some are gaining, some are losing), but tend to not be too big of a problem since they tend to have greedier mana bases. I think you'll find an additional Smash to Smithereens nice, or running Shattering Spree, Spree is nice because the copies are put directly on the stack and dodge Chalice, but it tends to lose damage.

Reanimator is gaining popularity again, as well as Sneak&Show. I'd try running some forms of graveyard hate and/or Ensnaring Bridge.

D&T isn't too bad and mentor is gone, so I don't recommend the Sulfur Elemental, I also feel it's redundant with Volcanic Fallout. The match up is really bad while learning it.

Exquisite Firecraft I think is ok to have as a 2 of, but feels redundant with Vexing Shusher, I find there not needed as much as before, just don't get over greedy with Fireblast.

For the Volcanic Fallout I like Pyroclasm or Electrickery. Pyroclasm is sorcery speed but costs 1 less (it can be countered, and it doesn't hurt players though), and Electrickery can be overloaded, but only does 1 damage instead of 2 (it also can be countered, and doesn't hurt players). The reason I prefer the 2 drop ones, are because the match ups where I even consider having a board wipe are things like Belcher, or TES where they try to go off on turn 1, and you want to be able to clear the tokens before you're dead.

Would it be acceptable to run two Lavamancer instead of two Reveler then? That seems like an easy trade-off. I like Lavamancer, I just traded my copies away long ago, but I figure they'd fit better in this version because of the fetchlands; is this correct? Additionally, I've also noticed a difference in versions of Burn. There seems to be two distinct type: Ones that run no fetches but have Flame Rift and those that run Fetches and sometimes Lavamancer. Given that, would it be anywhere near a good idea to run Flame Rift in a list like this, with fetches or is it too much of a liability?

How often do people run Leyline of Sanctity in legacy now? I still have yet to see one, but that doesn't mean it won't change. As for Pyroclasm, I live in a Delver-heavy area; is Pyroclasm still better over Fallout?

[scaryrawr]

Would it be acceptable to run two Lavamancer instead of two Reveler then? That seems like an easy trade-off. I like Lavamancer, I just traded my copies away long ago, but I figure they'd fit better in this version because of the fetchlands; is this correct? Additionally, I've also noticed a difference in versions of Burn. There seems to be two distinct type: Ones that run no fetches but have Flame Rift and those that run Fetches and sometimes Lavamancer. Given that, would it be anywhere near a good idea to run Flame Rift in a list like this, with fetches or is it too much of a liability?

How often do people run Leyline of Sanctity in legacy now? I still have yet to see one, but that doesn't mean it won't change. As for Pyroclasm, I live in a Delver-heavy area; is Pyroclasm still better over Fallout?

That's correct about Lavamancer. A few people have stopped running him, while others have even moved up to 3. I think he deservers his 2 slots in my list.

If that's the case (Delver heavy), I think Fallout is better since it can't be countered and you can get the Deathrite's and Delvers at the same time, Pyroclasm I think is more for the Empty the Warrens strategies.

I think Flame Rift is fine as a 2 of in the fetch list. Flame Rift really only works out if you're ahead on life, which with fetches and Eidolon of the Great Revel[ you tend to stay even if you cast Flame Rift, most of the time we don't care too much about our life totals, but it's easy to lock ourselves out of games if we're not careful.

Leyline of Sanctity is rarely seen right now. Storm may see a resurgence with miracles gone, which may lead to people playing it again, I tend to see it only in fringe decks otherwise.

[demifiend]

hiya, folks! first post here on the source, long time lurker/first time poster and all that

i've been playing variations of reanimator for the last few years since i got into legacy, and decided to start piecing together a burn deck last year. finally got around to buying the last couple of major pieces this last week and did some practice matches with a friend tonight to start getting a feel for the deck. what's everyone's opinion on the infect matchup? my first few sets were absolutely miserable, but i know i can chalk a few losses up to misplays and inexperience. how do you generally approach this one? all-in throwing as much damage as possible at every opportunity, or do you try to grind it out and hold up bolts/blazes/blasts to kill their creatures? any pointers would be massively appreciated!

for reference, my maindeck looks something like:

4x wooded foothills
4x bloodstained mire
1x arid mesa
10x mountain

4x goblin guide
4x eidolon of the great revel
2x monastery swiftspear
1x grim lavamancer

4x lightning bolt
4x chain lightning
4x rift bolt
4x lava spike
4x price of progress
4x fireblast
3x searing blaze
3x sulfuric vortex

(SB is still a work in progress; practice matches were strictly maindeck but the tentative choices i have in mind don't have much relevant vs. infect outside maybe pithing needle and searing blood?)

[Eldariel]

Infect is a tricky match-up. They'll outrace you as a rule so you'll be forced to burn their creatures. Lavamancer is great: they have few removal spells and it always draws a buff spell or kills the creature. You play around their permission by them tapping out and use their endstep to unload damage safely where possible. Optimally you'd get a creature or two out early: Glistener Elf can actually be blocked if they don't have a Berserk. Always try to kill their stuff on your turn: waiting until their turn allows them to both, counter your spell and deal a ton to you with Invigorate. If you burn their creatures on their turn you're pretty much forced to fight over their pump spells and they have way more free and cheap spells than you do so you're easily on the losing end. Generally I find the most annoying card to be Inkmoth Nexus for this very reason: you can't kill it on your turn and while it ties some of their mana, you have to fight through their Dazes, Invigorates, Forces, Vines and Spell Pierces, not to mention Become Immense, if you want to stop it. However, it is a rather slow card so you don't have to worry about dying to it until turn 3 generally (unless they have like triple Invigorate, in which case you probably weren't winning anyways).

Eidolon of the Great Revel is superb if you can land it: your lifetotal is a non-factor in the match-up and everything but Become Immense and Force of Will procs it. I generally suggest playing the match-up as if you were playing oldschool Sligh: try to slam down some threats and spend your burn on their creatures while your threats win you the game. Wastelands would actually be huge in this match-up but sadly that detracts from the straight-up burn plan in many other match-ups and of course, makes Price of Progress slightly less mindblowing.

[scaryrawr]

hiya, folks! first post here on the source, long time lurker/first time poster and all that

i've been playing variations of reanimator for the last few years since i got into legacy, and decided to start piecing together a burn deck last year. finally got around to buying the last couple of major pieces this last week and did some practice matches with a friend tonight to start getting a feel for the deck. what's everyone's opinion on the infect matchup? my first few sets were absolutely miserable, but i know i can chalk a few losses up to misplays and inexperience. how do you generally approach this one? all-in throwing as much damage as possible at every opportunity, or do you try to grind it out and hold up bolts/blazes/blasts to kill their creatures? any pointers would be massively appreciated!

for reference, my maindeck looks something like:

4x wooded foothills
4x bloodstained mire
1x arid mesa
10x mountain

4x goblin guide
4x eidolon of the great revel
2x monastery swiftspear
1x grim lavamancer

4x lightning bolt
4x chain lightning
4x rift bolt
4x lava spike
4x price of progress
4x fireblast
3x searing blaze
3x sulfuric vortex

(SB is still a work in progress; practice matches were strictly maindeck but the tentative choices i have in mind don't have much relevant vs. infect outside maybe pithing needle and searing blood?)

Infect is favorable, but still very swingy. You don't try to race them. You tend to play the control deck. They have 8 infect threats I believe (Inkmoth Nexus, Blighted Agent, Glistener Elf), and the only one they can really tutor for is the Inkmoth. So you tend to want to focus on burning out their creatures, they do run Daze and Force of Will, so you'll want to play around those. Grim Lavamancer is one of your best removals since they don't really have a way to deal with it when it resolves. I'd remove a Sulfuric Vortex and go to 2 Lavamancers, Burn doesn't have card draw, so a 1-of has a really low chance to hit. Main phasing removal causes them to use pump spells on your turn instead of during their combat, also, if you have to handle it on their turn cast removal in response to pump spells. They'll have to cast more pump spells to make their creatures survive, which you can cast more burn in response (that's why people feel main phasing on your own turn is safer). Going up 1 to 2 poison a turn isn't too bad, it's only if you hit 10, so let them try to pump spell first, if nothing happens, just take the poison.

When side boarding, Inkmoth turns into an artifact creature, so Smash to Smithereens or other instant speed artifact removal can hit it.

If you lose thought, don't let it get to you, they can get freakishly good hands, so you have to accept you can't win them all.

[TheYoungPyromancer]

hiya, folks! first post here on the source, long time lurker/first time poster and all that

i've been playing variations of reanimator for the last few years since i got into legacy, and decided to start piecing together a burn deck last year. finally got around to buying the last couple of major pieces this last week and did some practice matches with a friend tonight to start getting a feel for the deck. what's everyone's opinion on the infect matchup? my first few sets were absolutely miserable, but i know i can chalk a few losses up to misplays and inexperience. how do you generally approach this one? all-in throwing as much damage as possible at every opportunity, or do you try to grind it out and hold up bolts/blazes/blasts to kill their creatures? any pointers would be massively appreciated!

for reference, my maindeck looks something like:

4x wooded foothills
4x bloodstained mire
1x arid mesa
10x mountain

4x goblin guide
4x eidolon of the great revel
2x monastery swiftspear
1x grim lavamancer

4x lightning bolt
4x chain lightning
4x rift bolt
4x lava spike
4x price of progress
4x fireblast
3x searing blaze
3x sulfuric vortex

(SB is still a work in progress; practice matches were strictly maindeck but the tentative choices i have in mind don't have much relevant vs. infect outside maybe pithing needle and searing blood?)

Infect can win as fast as turn 2, so keep that in mind when laying down a strategy for this matchup. Racing them is probably a bad idea, but since you're always on a tight clock, it's important to know when to hit the gas for the final few points of damage.

It's usually a favorable matchup, depending on how experienced the opponent is. In my opinion, we should be playing on the control side of the table, while most of the time they should be the beatdown. That said, bluffing is an actual and valuable resource against such a deck in order to receive a low count of poison counters per turn.

There's a build of Burn which runs 3 copies of Grim Lavamancer (no Monastery Swiftspear or Flame Rift). That version has a much better matchup against Infect.

You will want to board in some of these, depending on your sideboard:
The remaining copies of Searing Blaze
Pyroblast
Smash to Smithereens
Exquisite Firecraft
Sudden Shock
Pyroclasm
Volcanic Fallout

To sum it up: be the control, play around Daze and Force of Will, and bluff as if your hand was nothing but instant speed removal spells at any given time :)

[Admiral Nobeard]

I've been testing two versions of burn on Cockatrice the last few days and for the life of me, I still can't figure out which version of Burn is better: The Fetchland/Lavamancer build or the Flame Rift/Sullivan build. To me, the lists seems almost exactly identical, except for the main cards I just stated in their names. Does anybody have more experience than me with both versions to help me? I can't see why I'd run one version over the other, or if there are marginal differences in the two.

[SecondSunrise]

I've been testing two versions of burn on Cockatrice the last few days and for the life of me, I still can't figure out which version of Burn is better: The Fetchland/Lavamancer build or the Flame Rift/Sullivan build. To me, the lists seems almost exactly identical, except for the main cards I just stated in their names. Does anybody have more experience than me with both versions to help me? I can't see why I'd run one version over the other, or if there are marginal differences in the two.

In my opinion the Sullivan list is was even stronger against Miracles, since Flame Rift was just 2 mana 4 damage with no drawback. However, against the rising number of Delver decks dealing 4 dmg to yourself is a realy drawback, so I'm not sure I would play that version right now. Similarly, I have a preference for Searing Blaze over Searing Blood (as in "would play 4 Blaze before the 1st Blood"), making fetchlands a bit more desirable for me.

How is the deck positioned in the meta right now? I have not played in a while, loosing a great matchup with Miracles and having more Glass Cannon combo in the format seems really rough.... any idea on how to adjust the SB to combat this? Was thinking about making room for Leyline of the Void or some number of Faerie Macabres, since those seem like the cards with the most impact against Reanimator...

[Admiral Nobeard]

In my opinion the Sullivan list is was even stronger against Miracles, since Flame Rift was just 2 mana 4 damage with no drawback. However, against the rising number of Delver decks dealing 4 dmg to yourself is a realy drawback, so I'm not sure I would play that version right now. Similarly, I have a preference for Searing Blaze over Searing Blood (as in "would play 4 Blaze before the 1st Blood"), making fetchlands a bit more desirable for me.

How is the deck positioned in the meta right now? I have not played in a while, loosing a great matchup with Miracles and having more Glass Cannon combo in the format seems really rough.... any idea on how to adjust the SB to combat this? Was thinking about making room for Leyline of the Void or some number of Faerie Macabres, since those seem like the cards with the most impact against Reanimator...

I've found that Ensnaring Bridge helps against Reanimator, and by extension, Show and Tell even more. They can use Omniscience and get their extra turn, but unless they have a bounce spell for the Bridge, you'll draw burn to kill them. I've considered running four Bridges in the side, similar to the old Burning Bridge decks that ran around years back.

[TLK]

My girlfriend is breaking into MTG and has bravely signed up for learning the game via Legacy. I built her Sullivan's 20-mountain Burn, and I'm looking for some advice on main deck configuration and sideboarding options/plans.

My local meta is:

1-2 UR Delver
1 Esper Stoneblade
1 Reanimator
1 D&T
1 Mono Black/The Gate
1 Mono Blue/Merfolk
1 Sneak & Show
A few random other decks like Shardless, Eldrazi, Dragon Stompy, Bant, etc. depending on what I'm playing that week. Lol.

Something like that, give or take, depending on who shows up. What's a solid sideboard plan against these types of decks? She really struggles with what to take out/side in for certain matchups. Any help would be greatly appreciated? She went 0-3 last night despite pretty solid play on her part (especially for a beginner playing Legacy) - I think I just need to tune her deck better for our meta and help write her up a general sideboarding guide.

THANK YOU in advance.

[Scott]

In my opinion the Sullivan list is was even stronger against Miracles, since Flame Rift was just 2 mana 4 damage with no drawback. However, against the rising number of Delver decks dealing 4 dmg to yourself is a realy drawback, so I'm not sure I would play that version right now.

I feel you on loving 2 mana/4 damage/no drawback spells. So much so that I play Tyrant's Choice in my Burn deck :laugh: Along with Deathrite Shaman, a Sylvan Library, and SB Destructive Revelry. Probably not helpful to your question, but agreed on 4 damage feeling nice.

[SecondSunrise]

I remember tinkering around with a list like that once, I believe I might even have played Bump in the Night as another Lava Spike effect, not sure.

I remember thinking that DRS was too clunky for my tastes, since he does not even shoot creatures and 2 dmg a turn is a bit weak (I've cut Lavamancer from my MD a while back for that reason as well). How is the deck working out for you? Could you post your list?

[scaryrawr]

My girlfriend is breaking into MTG and has bravely signed up for learning the game via Legacy. I built her Sullivan's 20-mountain Burn, and I'm looking for some advice on main deck configuration and sideboarding options/plans.

My local meta is:

1-2 UR Delver
1 Esper Stoneblade
1 Reanimator
1 D&T
1 Mono Black/The Gate
1 Mono Blue/Merfolk
1 Sneak & Show
A few random other decks like Shardless, Eldrazi, Dragon Stompy, Bant, etc. depending on what I'm playing that week. Lol.

Something like that, give or take, depending on who shows up. What's a solid sideboard plan against these types of decks? She really struggles with what to take out/side in for certain matchups. Any help would be greatly appreciated? She went 0-3 last night despite pretty solid play on her part (especially for a beginner playing Legacy) - I think I just need to tune her deck better for our meta and help write her up a general sideboarding guide.

THANK YOU in advance.

Your meta seems to have a lot of creature match ups, where I feel Sullivan's list is more geared for taking on a Combo heavy meta. Also, the match ups tend to be very difficult for burn.

UR Delver - Can be a better burn deck than burn at times. Their creatures tend to race better than yours, so searing effects tend to be a must. They also can play around Price of Progress very affectively, you have to play around Daze, unless you have a spell you'd rather feed to it to land Eidolon (Guide into a Daze so Eidolon sticks), but at the same time, they might have more than 1 Daze/Force of Will, and it'll really set you back not getting Eidolon to land. Stormchaser Mage is pretty impossible to kill, so only Sear it for getting in damage. I feel fetch burn tends to be better here, but if you're fetchless, just kill faster.

Side out Price of Progress, in Searing effects (Searing Blood can only really kill delver, so it might be a dead card), Sudden Shock can safely kill delver or swiftspear, Exquisite Firecraft is still probably good, you can also side out Flame Rift. Pyrostatic Pillar can lock yourself out, so I wouldn't unless you have more that needs to come out, never play it on the draw though.

Esper Stoneblade - They gain life. Stoneforge Mystic is a must kill. Sulfuric Vortex helps stop the life gain. Deathrite Shamman is a must kill early game (Stoneforge needs to die more than deathrite), but they can gain life off of deathrite if creatures are in the graveyard. Later game, you have to evaluate graveyards before killing deathrites since they might not be doing anything.

Side out Flame Rift, side in all Smash to Smithereens, and Searing effects (searing blood can hit everything you care about, so without fetches those will probably be better). Side in Sudden Shock for something if you can, they can't counter or activate Stoneforge in response. If they search up Jitte with stoneforge, either they believe stoneforge is going to die, or they already have Batterskull in hand.

Reanimator - UB or RB? I say give up. On a more serious note. Kill faster.

Side board - In Grafdigger's Cage if you have it Faerie Macabre, and any other graveyard hate. You can also bring in Pyrostatic Pillar[cards] since it can lock them out from playing [cards]Reanimate if you get multiple Eidolon effects going, they sometimes also get clunky hands where they're stuck digging which Eidolon effects punish. I'd side out price since they tend to try to be turn 1-2 combo, so it won't really hit for much. You're not too worried about locking yourself out in this match up since they're trying to cheat in a fatty that you just can't deal with. If you need more stuff to side out, Rift Bolt can be too slow and locked out by Iona, and you just want to go fast. There's also some stuff about siding out Goblin Guides on the draw, and Lava Spikes on the play, but I don't think that applies too much here.

D&T - Think about Esper Stoneblade, but treat Mother of Runes as Deathrites (but they pretty much always have to die), and they don't have counters. Thalia isn't a must kill (contrary to how many people feel), and depends if you can play through it or not. Don't try to kill it while Karakas is untapped. Kill a very early Aether Vial, but not late game ones. Vial on 3 is the scary place.

Sideboarding - In smashes, searing effects, sudden shock (if you have it, I'm not a fan of the card...), out, some combination of goblin guide, eidolon, price of progress (depending on play draw). I tend to leave the guides in and remove a mix of Eidolon/Price (more eidolons stay in on the play). The thing is, they play 23 lands, 10 of which are basic, but they don't have fetches. They also have Stoneforge and Vial which cheat things in around Eidolon. Kill things in response to equip activation if equipments land, that way they're spending their mana to do useless stuff. The ultimate goal is equipments don't land, and if they do, there's nothing to equip to.

The Gate - Never played this. Kill faster...?

Merfolk - This is a pain, it's very swingy, they play Chalice of the Void. Searing effects are important, it's mostly just a race.

Sideboarding - Bring in searing effects, sudden shock, smashes. Take out price, flame rifts. Smash Vials, and Jitte. Searing effects are mostly to use on the Lords.

Sneak and Show - Cry, tears of pain.

Sideboarding - Ensaring Bridge if you have it. Other than that... Kill faster. Pyrostatic Pillar can be good too since they cantrip a ton.

[Scott]

I remember tinkering around with a list like that once, I believe I might even have played Bump in the Night as another Lava Spike effect, not sure.

I remember thinking that DRS was too clunky for my tastes, since he does not even shoot creatures and 2 dmg a turn is a bit weak (I've cut Lavamancer from my MD a while back for that reason as well). How is the deck working out for you? Could you post your list?

I stole it from this list (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14232&iddeck=104883), so it's very similar.

I haven't played it much lately. I like it better mostly because of play style/enjoyment reasons. I always liked Burn but I didn't like the powerless feeling against things like Reanimator, certain Enchantments, etc., so I like the added dimension that DRS and :b::g: gives. It's probably a meta call.

[scaryrawr]

I stole it from this list (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14232&iddeck=104883), so it's very similar.

I haven't played it much lately. I like it better mostly because of play style/enjoyment reasons. I always liked Burn but I didn't like the powerless feeling against things like Reanimator, certain Enchantments, etc., so I like the added dimension that DRS and :b::g: gives. It's probably a meta call.

I went down this path once... Ended up building Jund...

[Admiral Nobeard]

So I've been thinking about the board often and with the changes since Top was banned, I've seen a lot more combo decks and "fair" decks to fight them. However, most of these fair decks tend to run a very high nonbasic count, but that is moot since we have Price of Progress. In both cases though, burn may get outclassed after boarding with the state of things. So I was thinking: what if we went a different direction with the board? Instead of putting in cards to deal with specific threats, why not go with general answers? I know it sounds shitty, but I'm basing my idea on the board of recent 5-0 finishes in MTGO legacy leagues. See Debatebro here: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2017-05-19 and Wuby123 here: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2017-05-21

In both instances, both players played cards in their board which have seen little numbers. In Debatebro's case, he ran a full playset of Pillar, I'm guessing not only to have more chances to draw it, but because it naturally hates on most every deck and not many decks have ways to remove it aside from specific 1-ofs in the side. In the case of Wuby123, they're playing Ankh of Mishra, which hasn't seen play since who knows when, but it hurts the opponent because they're forced to play lands they don't want to, which, again, affects almost every deck. I think that moving to broad answers in the board instead of specific ones may help with the change in meta. Do ya'll think this is a good idea?

My board so far after making some changes:
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Pyroblast
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Exquisite Firecraft

[scaryrawr]

So I've been thinking about the board often and with the changes since Top was banned, I've seen a lot more combo decks and "fair" decks to fight them. However, most of these fair decks tend to run a very high nonbasic count, but that is moot since we have Price of Progress. In both cases though, burn may get outclassed after boarding with the state of things. So I was thinking: what if we went a different direction with the board? Instead of putting in cards to deal with specific threats, why not go with general answers? I know it sounds shitty, but I'm basing my idea on the board of recent 5-0 finishes in MTGO legacy leagues. See Debatebro here: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2017-05-19 and Wuby123 here: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2017-05-21

In both instances, both players played cards in their board which have seen little numbers. In Debatebro's case, he ran a full playset of Pillar, I'm guessing not only to have more chances to draw it, but because it naturally hates on most every deck and not many decks have ways to remove it aside from specific 1-ofs in the side. In the case of Wuby123, they're playing Ankh of Mishra, which hasn't seen play since who knows when, but it hurts the opponent because they're forced to play lands they don't want to, which, again, affects almost every deck. I think that moving to broad answers in the board instead of specific ones may help with the change in meta. Do ya'll think this is a good idea?

My board so far after making some changes:
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Pyroblast
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Exquisite Firecraft

Dabatebro's side is one I've commonly seen. It has 8 cards in the side dedicated to the combo match up (Pyrostatic Pillar and Leyline of the Void). Smash to Smithereens, artifact hate is a must have. Searing Blood is to increase his creature hate (I guess it's pretty general...). Pyrostatic Pillar is typically a Storm hate card (it was useful against Miracles as well). Storm is the 2nd most popular deck on MTGO, so to do well you probably have to expect it. If you over side in Pillar, you're going to lock yourself out of so many games and lose quite a bit.

Wuby123's side is much more interesting. Ankh of Mishra kind of reminds me of Harsh Mentor but almost slightly better? I'm not sure what match ups you'd bring it in, but you get 5 damage if your opponent plays a fetch and fetches. Anarchy is another card I'm not sure where you bring it in, D&T isn't that popular online, and Smashes tend to get you there anyways. Maybe with the increase in Stoneforge decks? Or deal with Knights in 4c Loam?

I definitely agree with updating your sideboard as the meta shifts. The thing with your slots is identify your match ups in your meta, what you have the highest probability to run into, are you favored or unfavored, etc. Burn's position in the meta is currently shifting a lot, we have more match ups that are difficult. There's a lot more life gain, etc.

Another thing to notice is they're both running fetchless builds, one is running Flame Rift the other Searing Blood and Sulfuric Vortex. Fetchless tries to kill faster than the fetch list, and be more dome oriented.

Dabatebro I'd say is more concerned with taking on combo decks.

Wuby123's I'd say is trying to race combo, but expects to run into Stoneforge/Deathrite/True-Name decks.

[silinhateamtop]

I am prester to play a tournament for now in Brazil, meta game unknown. Do you think Patrick Sullivan's version 20 mountains is still viable? I am referring only to the MD. The side I thought of as follows:
4 Leylinfe of the void / Faerie Macabre?
4 Searing Blood
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Pyrostatic Pillar

What do you guys think about Sulfuric Vortex in the other versions? It pays to keep or trade for Blaze or Blood?

[rolzup]

Hey: Long time reader, first time poster.

I need some advice about the upcoming Legacy GP in Las Vegas.

A couple of weeks ago, I won a legacy GPT...went 6-0-1 with Burn. Here's what I ran...

Creatures:
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
2 Harsh Mentor (I know, I know...I can explain)
4 Monastery Swiftspear

Spells:
4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt

Enchantments:
3 Sulfuric Vortex

Lands:
1 Barbarian Ring
9 Fetches
9 Mountains

SB:
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Exquisite Firecraft
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Searing Blaze
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Volcanic Fallout

Why the mentors? The local metagame where I play is big on BUG, DnT, Maverick...basically, decks with lots of potential "non-mana producing" activations and I wanted to give mentor a try. I also knew that re-animator and storm decks weren't that common here. It turns out I guessed right and won the tournament and earned 2 byes. I decided that I'm not going to get that lucky at the GP with match-ups, so I revised my mainboard by putting 2 Grim Lavamancers in the spots for the Mentors. I also swapped out one Vortex for a searing blaze.

Dilemma...

I want to tune the sideboard for the GP, but I'm having some difficulty making some tough choices. I feel the loss of miracles made creating a sideboard tougher, because miracles helped diminish some of burn's iffy match-ups and, it turned out, miracles focused cards like volcanic fallout and firecraft were all around solid cards that could be used in many decks. Now that top is gone and the meta-game for the GP is now WIDE open (see Brian DeMars's Channel Fireball article posted today), I'm having a hard time finding a board that will contain as many all around answers as possible. A friend of mine suggested the "find the best 15 cards for most decks and be willing to sacrifice wins versus bad match-ups" approach.

After testing with friends (and their legacy gauntlets) over the last couple of days and weeks, I am currently looking at this sideboard:

2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Searing Blaze
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Volcanic Fallout

I think it covers a wide range of deck types, but something still seems off. Any advice and/or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance

[Kyuuri117]

Hey guys. New to the burn thread, main love in legacy is BUG midrange, but a man can only take so many TNN mirror matches...

Anyway, a few months back I started on a project. I wanted to get a sidedeck going, and Sullivan's list looked fun to play, and most importantly, very inexpensive. But, as anyone who's played with or against burn knows, one of the main alure's to the deck is, well, the fact that it tilts people.

So I asked myself, how can I expand on that? And, this is how i've decided to do so.

Fully white boarded legacy burn.

[Main Deck](http://imgur.com/S4aiHZk)

[Side Board](http://imgur.com/NCiQt7E)

The Urza's mountains are black boardered by choice, as that mountain does come with a white boarded printing (one of my favorite mountains, love that art). And I haven't touched the white bordered Rush bolts, figured I had done enough and didn't need to go that far.

Lastly, as far as the list goes, i've swapped the two vortex to the mainboard and two Rifts to the side. Probably not the best sideboard configuation post miracles banning, but i haven't had the chance to buy another eraser / the cards to stick in there.

Anyway, hope you guys enjoy this! It's been a blast to play at some of the SCG side events, generates a lot of either awesome discussion, or just absolute hatred...

[Stuart]

Sick deck, Kyuuri! I'm a member of both the minorities that love white borders and that love Burn, so this is right up my alley.

[rolzup]

Hey guys. New to the burn thread, main love in legacy is BUG midrange, but a man can only take so many TNN mirror matches...

Anyway, a few months back I started on a project. I wanted to get a sidedeck going, and Sullivan's list looked fun to play, and most importantly, very inexpensive. But, as anyone who's played with or against burn knows, one of the main alure's to the deck is, well, the fact that it tilts people.

So I asked myself, how can I expand on that? And, this is how i've decided to do so.

Fully white boarded legacy burn.

[Main Deck](http://imgur.com/S4aiHZk)

[Side Board](http://imgur.com/NCiQt7E)

The Urza's mountains are black boardered by choice, as that mountain does come with a white boarded printing (one of my favorite mountains, love that art). And I haven't touched the white bordered Rush bolts, figured I had done enough and didn't need to go that far.

Lastly, as far as the list goes, i've swapped the two vortex to the mainboard and two Rifts to the side. Probably not the best sideboard configuation post miracles banning, but i haven't had the chance to buy another eraser / the cards to stick in there.

Anyway, hope you guys enjoy this! It's been a blast to play at some of the SCG side events, generates a lot of either awesome discussion, or just absolute hatred...

I like the white borders and Urza's mountains are the best looking ones. They are the only mountains I use in Legacy. I was fortunate to get John Avon to sign 4 of them at a GP a couple years ago.

[Sidneyious]

So I'm looking to do more with my list, recently I got ahold of 3 swiftspear and made room.

Some may not know but I built this as the man of burn did years ago.

SORCERY*(16)
4x*Chain Lightning
4x*Flame Rift
4x*Lava Spike
4x*Rift Bolt
LAND*(20)
4x*Bloodstained Mire
12x*Mountain
4x*Wooded Foothills
INSTANT*(12)
4x*Fireblast
4x*Lightning Bolt
4x*Price of Progress
CREATURE*(10)
4x*Goblin Guide
3x*Grim Lavamancer
3x*Monastery Swiftspear
ENCHANTMENT*(2)
2x*Sulfuric Vortex
SIDEBOARD*(15)
3x*Ensnaring Bridge
4x*Mindbreak Trap
4x*Searing Blaze
4x*Vexing Shusher


Now I'm starting to want more instant speed and to do that I need to run another color.

Sure the deck gets a lot of strength because basic lands and sure the fetch can be stifled.

I'm really wanting to run white for boros charm, it's a strick upgrade to rift afaic.

I'd love to replace vortex but it's a solid consistent source of damage that has won me many games I should have no reason to.

Atarkas command does a good job of imitating vortex.

Thoughts on lightning helix?

Kolaghans command?

[scaryrawr]

So I'm looking to do more with my list, recently I got ahold of 3 swiftspear and made room.

Some may not know but I built this as the man of burn did years ago.

SORCERY*(16)
4x*Chain Lightning
4x*Flame Rift
4x*Lava Spike
4x*Rift Bolt
LAND*(20)
4x*Bloodstained Mire
12x*Mountain
4x*Wooded Foothills
INSTANT*(12)
4x*Fireblast
4x*Lightning Bolt
4x*Price of Progress
CREATURE*(10)
4x*Goblin Guide
3x*Grim Lavamancer
3x*Monastery Swiftspear
ENCHANTMENT*(2)
2x*Sulfuric Vortex
SIDEBOARD*(15)
3x*Ensnaring Bridge
4x*Mindbreak Trap
4x*Searing Blaze
4x*Vexing Shusher


Now I'm starting to want more instant speed and to do that I need to run another color.

Sure the deck gets a lot of strength because basic lands and sure the fetch can be stifled.

I'm really wanting to run white for boros charm, it's a strick upgrade to rift afaic.

I'd love to replace vortex but it's a solid consistent source of damage that has won me many games I should have no reason to.

Atarkas command does a good job of imitating vortex.

Thoughts on lightning helix?

Kolaghans command?

No Eidolon of the Great Revel?

I've definitely felt that Legacy Burn has a lot less instants than Burn in other formats, but if you're going to color splash, what are you gaining?

Skullcrack I think is better than Atarka's Command in some cases (Damage cannot be prevented). Boros Charm I definitely agree is better than Flame Rift, as well as better than Tyrant's Choice.

Lightning Helix I don't think is worth it in Legacy, most of the time, our life total doesn't matter, and 2 mana for 3 damage isn't too efficient. I think Deflecting Palm might be worth a white splash depending on the meta, if you can reflect 15 damage, or even 7 damage, tends to be pretty good for 2.

Kolaghan's Command is an amazing card, just not in Burn I feel. 3 drop is steep, and the modes don't buy us too much I feel. Smash to Smithereens is destroy artifact with 3 damage to the face. The buy back a creature I don't feel we gain too much from, opponent discarding is nice, but not great (can be at times). It has a lot of value in midrange decks which aren't worried about closing the game quickly, and are trying to stay in the game.

[Kyuuri117]

So I'm looking to do more with my list, recently I got ahold of 3 swiftspear and made room.

Some may not know but I built this as the man of burn did years ago.

SORCERY*(16)
4x*Chain Lightning
4x*Flame Rift
4x*Lava Spike
4x*Rift Bolt
LAND*(20)
4x*Bloodstained Mire
12x*Mountain
4x*Wooded Foothills
INSTANT*(12)
4x*Fireblast
4x*Lightning Bolt
4x*Price of Progress
CREATURE*(10)
4x*Goblin Guide
3x*Grim Lavamancer
3x*Monastery Swiftspear
ENCHANTMENT*(2)
2x*Sulfuric Vortex
SIDEBOARD*(15)
3x*Ensnaring Bridge
4x*Mindbreak Trap
4x*Searing Blaze
4x*Vexing Shusher


Now I'm starting to want more instant speed and to do that I need to run another color.

Sure the deck gets a lot of strength because basic lands and sure the fetch can be stifled.

I'm really wanting to run white for boros charm, it's a strick upgrade to rift afaic.

I'd love to replace vortex but it's a solid consistent source of damage that has won me many games I should have no reason to.

Atarkas command does a good job of imitating vortex.

Thoughts on lightning helix?

Kolaghans command?



By adding a second or even third color, I have to imagine you're losing a huge amount of percentage points in the Delver matchup. Turns their wastelands on and stifle's on, which turns on their daze's. And if even one of your burn spells gets dazed, you're in some trouble. And if you kept a 1-2 land hand and get wastelanded and now can't use the two man spells in your hand? It just seems bad.

Course, all of that pales in comparison to the fact you're giving up Price of Progress by adding a second color, let alone a third. I don't have too much experience with legacy Burn, but the amount of games that end when I'm at under 6-8 life that I win with a Price of Progress are not inconsequential. Taking away the ability to steal games seems bad. Also, just by having Price in your deck you're forcing your opponent to get suboptimal lands with their fetches or risk getting blown out, which again is not an inconsequential advantage. Upgrading Flame Rift to Boros Charm and Vortex to Atarka's Command cannot be worth that.

[scaryrawr]

By adding a second or even third color, I have to imagine you're losing a huge amount of percentage points in the Delver matchup. Turns their wastelands on and stifle's on, which turns on their daze's. And if even one of your burn spells gets dazed, you're in some trouble. And if you kept a 1-2 land hand and get wastelanded and now can't use the two man spells in your hand? It just seems bad.

Course, all of that pales in comparison to the fact you're giving up Price of Progress by adding a second color, let alone a third. I don't have too much experience with legacy Burn, but the amount of games that end when I'm at under 6-8 life that I win with a Price of Progress are not inconsequential. Taking away the ability to steal games seems bad. Also, just by having Price in your deck you're forcing your opponent to get suboptimal lands with their fetches or risk getting blown out, which again is not an inconsequential advantage. Upgrading Flame Rift to Boros Charm and Vortex to Atarka's Command cannot be worth that.

Your first point is actually an issue I've had with running Barbarian Ring, if it ends up being one of your two opening lands it's a really huge set back. You really want it to just be an uncounterable Shock.

Second point, I think you can actually color splash just fine and still play Price of Progress (take UR Delver for example). I think it's a fun experiment, but I tend to find that mono R Burn just tends to be best.

I took a break from Burn for a bit to play Grixis Delver, and I have to say that one of the things I miss most about Burn is not getting Wastelanded out of the game.

I think the color splash I like best is the white splash, for Path to Exile, Deflecting Palm, Rest in Peace, Stony Silence, Chained to the Rocks, etc. My gripe with this is you can't get a foil Plateau...

[ReneRandrup]

Hey guys

I just finished second with burn in the Legacy Challenge 25/6 2017 with 75 players.

I was trying out a card I never have seen in burn before.

The card I am takling about is Pain's Reward. Card draw auktion for life. A better version in burn than Painfull Truths. I played two maindeck. I splashed for black with two badlands and 10 fetchland to support it. In the tournament I played the spell a couple of times. It was fun. I am not sure if it is correct to play the card or if it more is a fun off card. But its worth some testing.

Thought you guys might like to know :tongue:

I am not able to write up my full playlist on this Ipad, but I am sure it will be posted on wizards magic online result page within a day.

Update: link to results and decklist
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2017-06-26

ReneRandrup

Link to Pain's Reward
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=75340

[Captain Hammer]

How much life did you usually have to bid to outbid your opponents?

Did your opponent ever bid enough life that you let the bid stand and had them draw four cards? If so, what was the bid?

Black also has Bump in the Night, Collective Brutality and Tyrant's Choice.

A black splash allows the deck to play a pure burn deck with zero reliance on creatures.

[tescrin]

How much life did you usually have to bid to outbid your opponents?
Did your opponent ever bid enough life that you let the bid stand and had them draw four cards? If so, what was the bid?


I too am curious about this. As an opponent I think I would pay up to 7-9 (since you're likely to draw ~7-9 damage of cards.) Between potentially drawing Force or other counters, it seems safe to draw the four and attempt to stabilize on the fact that they just 4-for-0'd them selves. Certainly depends on my life total, boardstate, etc; but it may also draw Jitte, BSK, or similar, and cause me to gain a bunch of life on top of it.

I could be totally wrong, but it does seem dangerous to say "Lol well one of us are losing 9-10 life" when your opponent may well be able to get you to pay 10, shoot you with DRS, untap, shoot you with DRS, bolt you.

[ReneRandrup]

Hi

1) I wouldent want to go creatureless. The creatures deals damage and opponent have to spent resources/cards to stop the damage.

2) I only resolved the spell 3-4 times. It was also countered a couple of times and a couple of times the spell was removed from my hand with disruption

3) including some testing I have paided between 0 and 9 life. Only once did I let my opponent outbid me. But not because I couldent pay the life. But because I afterwards had more than lethal. I belive his bid was 7-8 life and in that case the math is 1 spell deals 7-8 damage. Sure opponent is up cards, but burn opponenents usual are. The objective is not to be ahead on cards - the objective is to deal 20 damage.

4) al magic spells have to be sequenced and played at the optimal time. Same with this spell. I would never cast the spell if I was lowest on life (there are corner cases). But in that case, the worst case scenario is just being down a card (not playing it). In pratice the burn player is ahead on life in 90% of the time and then sometimes stalls, run out of threats and this is where this card come in. Its allow you the refuel your hand and paying with the resource your are ahead on: life. This is usual round 4-6 and at this point paying 3 mana usual is not a problem.

René Randrup

[hamie96]

Hello fellow Burn players,

I am currently building Burn for an upcoming legacy quarterly in my area (the standard 2 lavamancer, 3 searing blaze build). The problem I'm running into is I'm unsure of what I should put into my sideboard to properly prepare for the meta.

This is the top 8 from the previous quarterly: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14875&f=LE

In addition, the previous Legacy tournament in the area had a TON of Grixis Delver and Sneak & Show.

My main questions are:

1) What should my sideboard look like in a meta filled with Grixis Delver, Death & Taxes, and Sneak and Show?

2) What do you guys normally take out when sideboarding?

3) What's my worst matchup?

[scaryrawr]

Hello fellow Burn players,

I am currently building Burn for an upcoming legacy quarterly in my area (the standard 2 lavamancer, 3 searing blaze build). The problem I'm running into is I'm unsure of what I should put into my sideboard to properly prepare for the meta.

This is the top 8 from the previous quarterly: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14875&f=LE

In addition, the previous Legacy tournament in the area had a TON of Grixis Delver and Sneak & Show.

My main questions are:

1) What should my sideboard look like in a meta filled with Grixis Delver, Death & Taxes, and Sneak and Show?

2) What do you guys normally take out when sideboarding?

3) What's my worst matchup?

Do you even need to side board against Grixis Delver? jk jk.

1.
Here's my friends list (http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=16204&d=300034&f=LE) from the CK invitational, which I think is pretty well rounded and good for a meta with D&T, Delver, and Sneak and Show.
His side was:

2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pyroblast
1 Searing Blaze
2 Searing Blood
1 Shattering Spree
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Surgical Extraction


I think something like this would be good, maybe cut down a Searing Blood for an additional Ensnaring Bridge or Pyroblast I think, Sneak and Show is your worst match up, and those 2 cards are really good there.

2.
Grixis Delver - You're heavily favored. I normally take out some number of Lava Spikes and or Rift Bolts on the play, some number of Goblin Guides and/or Spikes on the draw. I bring in Searing effects and Pyroblast. Pyroblast can fight over TNN and kill delvers and hit those "Please don't kill me" Force of Wills.

D&T - I think they're favored pre board, your favored post board. I tend to take out a mix of Eidolon, Price of Progress, and/or Lava Spike. A lot of people think I'm a little crazy how I side in the match up... Eidolon isn't as good because they play Vial and Stoneforge, they just cheat their stuff in. Price is mixed, because sometimes they draw nothing but basic plains and Wastelands, other times they're stuck on Karakas, Horizon Canopy, and Ports. And Spike... is just Spike. I tend to try to leave 1-3 Price in, sometimes I take out all the Eidolons, other times I have 2 Eidolons, 2 Price, and take out some number of Spike. Guide is also worth siding out on the draw here, but I tend to value creatures more in the match up since you tend to have to try keeping their board under control, so I leave them in.

Show and Tell - You're screwed. In, Ensaring Bridge and Pyroblast. I keep questioning bringing in Surgical, but they still have other ways to go off other than Show and Tell, but you can also screw them over by getting their fatties they cheat in. I tend to side out some number of Price, Rift Bolts/Spikes, or Guides depending on play or draw. Sometimes you just really need to get in 3 damage, but you draw the Rift Bolt... I also like having Sulfuric Vortex in this match up, because then you can race Griselbrand.

3) Show and Tell, Reanimator, Belcher, any combo deck that can kill faster than you.

[hamie96]

Do you even need to side board against Grixis Delver? jk jk.

1.
Here's my friends list (http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=16204&d=300034&f=LE) from the CK invitational, which I think is pretty well rounded and good for a meta with D&T, Delver, and Sneak and Show.
His side was:

2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pyroblast
1 Searing Blaze
2 Searing Blood
1 Shattering Spree
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Surgical Extraction

...



Thanks for the help. I'm going to pretty much use the same sideboard minus 2 cages for faerie macabres and 1 Shattering Spree for a Pyrostatic Pillar. I imagine I'll probably encounter at least 1 Storm deck, so it doesn't hurt to edge the matchup just a tad. I also don't believe anyone plays Elves in the area so Macabres are just better suited to deal with combo.

I agree with not bringing in Surgicals against S&S as it just seems like it won't affect their plan as much as 3 to the face does. Hopefully all goes well and I can just dodge the matchup though.

[TheYoungPyromancer]

Fellow Pyromancers,

In order to cope with the historical Mana Flood issue in Burn, and also considering how heavily the meta has recently shifted towards Grixis Delver and Death and Taxes, how do you guys feel about running a single copy of Molten Vortex in main deck?

This is what my current list looks like (Molten Vortex is basically taking the fourth Rift Bolt slot):
Lands
10 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Arid Mesa

Creatures
4 Goblin Guide
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
3 Grim Lavamancer

Spells
4 Lava Spike
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Rift Bolt

4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast
2 Searing Blaze

3 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Molten Vortex

[kirsed]

Right now I'm running 4 Seering Blood 4 Smash to Smithereens in my sideboard has anyone tried condensing their creature removal and artifact removal into abrade yet? So it would be something like 4 abrade 2 smash to smithereens. I know most people try and stick to the concept of every card has to do damage but in my mind this allows for more do nothing anti combo sideboard cards like pyroblast/graveyard hate.

[Darkness]

A friend at my LGS has tried Hazert as a singleton threat and a way to avoid mana screw, he really enjoys it.

[TLK]

So my dear girlfriend (bless her heart) got into Magic because it's a passion of mine. At first she was very hesitant, but once she started playing, she really took to it and since she has a competitive nature, she obviously enjoys winning. Since I mostly only play Legacy, she agreed to join in on the fun. I chose Burn since I felt it was the simplest deck to teach to a newcomer (mono-colored, just point everything at the face, standard combat, etc.) and she has picked it up nicely. She even signed up for the GP Vegas Legacy event with me and won a match! However, the deck does not seem very strong considering our local meta, which is filled with fast combo decks (Reanimator, Storm, Sneak & Show) and Batterskulls/Jittes (Stoneblade, D&T). In short, I have a few questions. Is there any way she could tweak her deck to be stronger against our meta, or should she just throw in the towel and learn a different deck? If it's the latter, what would be another "easy" deck for her to learn that would be a bit more competitive?

[ThomasDowd]

So my dear girlfriend (bless her heart) got into Magic because it's a passion of mine. At first she was very hesitant, but once she started playing, she really took to it and since she has a competitive nature, she obviously enjoys winning. Since I mostly only play Legacy, she agreed to join in on the fun. I chose Burn since I felt it was the simplest deck to teach to a newcomer (mono-colored, just point everything at the face, standard combat, etc.) and she has picked it up nicely. She even signed up for the GP Vegas Legacy event with me and won a match! However, the deck does not seem very strong considering our local meta, which is filled with fast combo decks (Reanimator, Storm, Sneak & Show) and Batterskulls/Jittes (Stoneblade, D&T). In short, I have a few questions. Is there any way she could tweak her deck to be stronger against our meta, or should she just throw in the towel and learn a different deck? If it's the latter, what would be another "easy" deck for her to learn that would be a bit more competitive?


if your meta is extremely combo heavy i'd remove all searing effects from the main and play flame rifts and swfitspears, no vortexes. just pure and fast.
batterskull/ jitte( taxes and or blade) wants grim so there is probably a balance here.

show and tell is extremely tough,I think people are on ensnaring bridge and to some degree maybe pyroblast
reanimator you can beat in theory in g2/ g3 by boarding hard free gy hate( leyline instead of split cards that cost mana, like cage /relic,etc.)
storm you can play pyrostatic pillar for pillars 5-X from the board, i wouldn't play more than 2 typically. also pyroblast helps here.

what is the current list you are on and what does the SB look like?

[gRR!!]

So my dear girlfriend (bless her heart) got into Magic because it's a passion of mine. At first she was very hesitant, but once she started playing, she really took to it and since she has a competitive nature, she obviously enjoys winning. Since I mostly only play Legacy, she agreed to join in on the fun. I chose Burn since I felt it was the simplest deck to teach to a newcomer (mono-colored, just point everything at the face, standard combat, etc.) and she has picked it up nicely. She even signed up for the GP Vegas Legacy event with me and won a match! However, the deck does not seem very strong considering our local meta, which is filled with fast combo decks (Reanimator, Storm, Sneak & Show) and Batterskulls/Jittes (Stoneblade, D&T). In short, I have a few questions. Is there any way she could tweak her deck to be stronger against our meta, or should she just throw in the towel and learn a different deck? If it's the latter, what would be another "easy" deck for her to learn that would be a bit more competitive?

Hey there,

Two of my friends are starting to play Legacy this year. They don't really know the Legacy metagame, so I try to lend them decks that minimize interaction and decission making. Right now, one of them is playing Burn and enjoying it (the Catalan League metagame is pretty fair, with some combo decks but not too many); he even bought the majority of cards so I haven't to lend mine to him anymore. The other one played Big Red last tournament and had a great time, even if the results weren't that good (3 wins 4 losses, IIRC). I think Big Red could be a great option for your girlfriend; it's not a deck too difficult to play, it doesn't need a great knowledge of the metagame, it can be explosive and it can even lock the opponent out of the game with Chalices/Blood Moons.

OR, if your meta is really infested with fast combo, you could go big and play the fastest combo deck available: Belcher. Come on, join the Belcher Cult!

[GodzillaBig]

So my dear girlfriend (bless her heart) got into Magic because it's a passion of mine. At first she was very hesitant, but once she started playing, she really took to it and since she has a competitive nature, she obviously enjoys winning. Since I mostly only play Legacy, she agreed to join in on the fun. I chose Burn since I felt it was the simplest deck to teach to a newcomer (mono-colored, just point everything at the face, standard combat, etc.) and she has picked it up nicely. She even signed up for the GP Vegas Legacy event with me and won a match! However, the deck does not seem very strong considering our local meta, which is filled with fast combo decks (Reanimator, Storm, Sneak & Show) and Batterskulls/Jittes (Stoneblade, D&T). In short, I have a few questions. Is there any way she could tweak her deck to be stronger against our meta, or should she just throw in the towel and learn a different deck? If it's the latter, what would be another "easy" deck for her to learn that would be a bit more competitive?

My local meta consists of mainly of fair decks with little-to-no SB plan against fast combo decks even though they show up mainly to bigger prize payout tournaments. I like to prepare hate just to be safe.

Here's my list:
Glade Burn (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/glade-burn/)
(NOTE: For the purposes of this response I'll talk about my sideboard plan to which I hope helps you against your meta. So disregard the mainboard.)

My maybeboard is basically my sideboard plan against various decks I think will be at major tournaments and adjust my sideboard according to the projected turnout. 7/10 times my information is correct.

For Reanimator and Storm (ANT/TES) I run 1 Leyline of the Void, 2 Surgical Extractions, and 1 Grafdigger's Cage against them, and side out the Guides.

Best way to interact with Sneak & Show/Show & Tell variants for me was siding in my 1 Pithing Needle and my 3 Pyroblasts. Side out the Goblins and Burn face.

Against Stoneblade decks (Batterskull/Jitte) I just side in 1 Vortex, 2 Smash to Smithereens, 1 Pithing Needle (for Jitte/Batterskull/SFM), and 2 Exquisite Firecraft. I side out the Bedlam, 4 Guides, and 1 Shrine.

Hope I was of some help

--GB

[slave]

Hi everyone.

So I'm not really a burn player - but it's where I started way back when. It's changed a bit since then of course with Eidolon, Vexing Devil etc.
I have a question for all you burn veterans and experts.

A couple weeks back I was playing/testing some new sideboard cards against my opponents (I was on LED-dredge).
I came up against Burn playing Pyromancer Ascension.
I didn't think much about it at all, I kinda dismissed it as a noob pile right there. Then he wrecked me in game 2 and 3 after I won game1, with pure burn to the face.
I normally beat Burn in 2 games...:eyebrow:

I've never seen Burn play Pyromancer Ascension before.
FWIW, he didn't seem to play any creatures or draw, but he did otherwise have what seemed like a normal burn deck.
So.... did he get lucky? Is the card rubbish?
What's the consensus on this one?

[silly]

I've never seen Burn play Pyromancer Ascension before.
FWIW, he didn't seem to play any creatures or draw, but he did otherwise have what seemed like a normal burn deck.
So.... did he get lucky? Is the card rubbish?
What's the consensus on this one?

I think Pyromancer's Ascension is pretty bad. You don't have any card draw or deck manipulation, so getting counters on it will be somewhat inconsistent. Also, Ascension is an awful, awful top deck, which is something that Burn usually can't afford. Plus, imagine if Pyromancer's Ascension was replaced by Flame Rift. In order for Pyromancer's Ascension to be better, you will usually need to cast four or more spells after resolving it.

----------------------------------------

Anyways, I decided to go back to Burn after not having played it for a long time. Played in a somewhat casual 8 man Legacy event with a pretty standard anti-creature list (x2 Lavamancer, x2 Searing Blaze, x1 Sulfuric Vortex, x0 Flame Rift main deck) and went 2-1. The sideboard could have used a little work (I was still on a pre-Top ban sideboard with x4 Exquisite Firecraft), but otherwise the rest of the deck was what you would typically see.

I'd mostly be interested in what people think about my sideboarding plans. It's been a while since I've kept up with Burn matchups, so some of these plans could use a bit of work.

Round 1 I played against Moon Stompy (the eventual winner of the tournament) and lost 1-2. This matchup felt like it should have been easier but we both drew incredibly awkwardly all three games. That's what you get for not playing a deck with Island in it, I guess. I lose the die roll and game 1, stick a single threat on my turn 1 and then he lands a turn 2 Trinisphere and I never draw my third land and get run over. I board in x3 Smash to Smithereens, x1 x1 Grim Lavamancer, x1 Searing Blaze, x1 Sulfuric Vortex and take out x4 Eidolon and x2 Price of Progress.

Game 2 I'm on the play. We both mulligan and after I get in for some damage with early creatures my board gets wiped and I stick a Sulfuric Vortex. Eventually we end up in a board state where I have Vortex and two Smash to Smithereens plus a single Rift Bolt in hand, while he has two 2/2 dorks (a Spirit Guide and a Magus of the Moon). We're both a relatively high life totals, so I bolt his Magus in order to slow down his clock (I decided to hit Magus over Spirit Guide because it turned his Sol lands back, cutting him off from double red) while Vortex chips away at us both. We both proceed to draw a lot of bricks (lands on my part and either lands or uncastable double red cards on his part), so I'm hitting him for 2 a turn and he's hitting me for 4. Towards the end of the game, he's at 8 life and I'm at 4 life, and I draw a Lightning Bolt. I have a decision between bolting his 2/2 or hitting his face, and I decide to go face, bringing him down to 5. On his turn Vortex brings him to 3, then he attacks me down to 2 life and instead of passing finally decides to drop an artifact. It's met with an instant Smash (which I had been holding all game), winning me the game.

Game 3 played out a lot like game 1. He's on the play again, drops an early Trinisphere, and I somehow never find a third land and quickly die.

Round 2 I played against OmniSneak, winning 2-1. Game 1 he casts a turn 2 Show and Tell, putting Griselbrand into play, which basically ends the game. We play out a few more turns and I come pretty close to being able to sneak out the win, but he sequences well and rides his 7/7 lifelink to victory. I don't have Pyroblast in my sideboard, so I'm feeling somewhat bad. I board in x2 Pyrostatic Pillar and x2 Sulfuric Vortex, boarding out x2 Grim Lavamancer and x2 Searing Blaze. After the round, I realized I probably should have boarded out some copies of Price of Progress instead, since his deck can easily fetch for mostly basics, but it didn't occur to me at the time.

Game 2 I get off to a strong start, and kill him in typical burn fashion. An early Eidolon complicates things because it means it's a lot harder for him to dig for a win.

Game 3, I'm on the draw and have to mulligan to 6, keeping a mediocre 1 lander. He again casts an early Show and Tell, this time dropping an Omniscience into play while I drop and Eidolon (which was okay for me because I had only one land at the time and couldn't even cast Eidolon). He removes my Eidolon (taking 2 damage in the process) but apparently his hand is full of bricks because the largest threat he can present after Omniscience is in play is a single Simian Spirit Guide. I draw my second land and start clocking him, and all of a sudden Simian Spirit Guide needs to play defense to random haste creatures. He draws bricks for a few more turns in a row, I get him down to 4 life, and then I make the read that he probably doesn't have Force of Will in hand and yolo Fireblast him (putting me down to 0 lands) for lethal before he can get any more draw steps.

Round 3 I play against Grixis Delver, winning 2-0. My deck has lots of main deck creature removal, and my opponent was still learning his deck. I had some pretty good sequencing to play around Daze and Spell Pierce, but for the most part these games were pretty straightforward victories for me.

Game 1, I'm on the play. My opponent Ponders turn 1, then Deathrite Shaman shows his ugly face on turn 2 but he immediately eats a Searing Blaze on turn 3. Afterwards, my opponent is on the back foot, not being able to present a good threat while I slowly draw more burn. True-Name comes down at some point, but it's way too late, and I close out the game with x2 Price of Progress (one of them gets Forced) followed by a Fireblast. Against Grixis Delver I bring in x2 Pyrostatic Pillar, x1 Grim Lavamancer, and x1 Searing Blaze, taking out x3 Monastery Swiftspear and x1 Sulfuric Vortex.

Game 2, another Deathrite Shaman shows up, this time on turn 1. He immediately eats a Chain Lightning, and again my opponent finds it hard to present a good threat while I slowly burn him out. True-Name Nemesis shows up again at some point to start the clock, but like before he's way too slow of a clock, as I am still at 20 life. My opponent is at 2 life with me basically out of gas (having played land-pass for a few turns), but I'm so far away from dying and any burn spell is lethal from my end. A second Deathrite comes down to try and stabilize a little bit, but he eats the Searing Blaze that has been stuck in my hand all game, closing out the game.

Overall, the deck still felt like it had a lot of game against other fair decks. Losing to Trinisphere was unlucky, but beating Show and Tell was pretty fortunate on my part, so I guess it balanced out. I did have plenty of games where I was at the mercy of my draws though. After having played Miracles for a few months, trying to play a non-blue deck like Burn again just feels so clunky. But regardless, the deck still performed fine, and I would probably jam it again at some point, since I do think that it's a deck that does pretty well in fair metas.

[IamHANDSOME]

Has anybody ever played 2-3 Blood Moon in the sideoboard?? I'm really starting to think about playing them. They destroy the 4c decks, Canadian Threshhold, Grixis Tempo, TA, Lands and Storm decks. Also against Reanimator and Elves they are quite good if the opponent does not expect the card to be played at least in the 2. game. Anyone tested Blood Moon in Burn?

[ThomasDowd]

Top 8'd a CK 1k 68 players. Burn was the most represented of the meta with 7 pilots.

List + bad rounds summaries later tonight. I'll just edit this post.

EDIT: LIST + summaries

Main (60)
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt

2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Searing Blaze
4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast

4 Goblin Guide
1 Grim Lavamancer
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

11 Mountain
4 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire

Sideboard (15)
1 Searing Blood
2 Searing Blaze
4 Smash to Smithereens
3 Exquisite Firecraft
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pyrostatic Pillar

Overall: I missed probably a half dozen triggers and about 3 damage on the day from missed attacks, I'm hella rusty since I haven;t played magic in a while

R1: Staver (lands)
I got lucky and he mis configured a chasm lock in G3
R2: Mike Tessier (big red stompy)
G1: Played around trinisphere,
G2/ G3:smash is a good card.
VOD HERE (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/178698993?t=01h10m29s):
R3: Kelvin(Czech pile)
I make a bunch of mistakes and still get there. wheeee.
R4: James Johnson (ANT)
Stole a game in G2 from being on the play and having pyro + eidolon and spells
G3: I probably should have mulled to hate but decided to race, double goblin guide and swiftspear + some spells were not enough,if I had been on the play it probably would have been closer
R5: Tim Wilder (Czech Pile)
g1, He won off some tight play and close ness, I went full face I think
g2, I was in an ok position, my outs according to his deeper analysis were POP on TOP, and I hit it But overall I had some bad ness and he had to play literally perfectly to dodge most of it.
g3: vod here (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/178698993?t=04h45m48s) if you want to watch a bunch of punts
R6: Randy Yao (elves)
g1: I burn dudes
g2: I 4 for 1'd myself to kill an elderscale wurm( bolt, fireblast(2 mountains)), I had a board presence of eidolon guide, swiftspear, eidolon did a lot of work. ended up killing him fireblast waiting for ever to kill him with it when I should have probably just killed him
R7: Intentional draw

Top 8 Quarters: I lose to Tessier, He takes it down.

[scaryrawr]

Has anybody ever played 2-3 Blood Moon in the sideoboard?? I'm really starting to think about playing them. They destroy the 4c decks, Canadian Threshhold, Grixis Tempo, TA, Lands and Storm decks. Also against Reanimator and Elves they are quite good if the opponent does not expect the card to be played at least in the 2. game. Anyone tested Blood Moon in Burn?

I've tried it before. It's not that great.

Think about the matchups you've listed, most of them you're already favored (except Storm), where Price of Progress is already a house. Your opponents are already fetching basics (the ones that can) to play around price.

Reanimator tries to be a turn 1-2 combo, elves a turn 2-4 combo. Storm typically a 2-4 combo (but can combo turn 1). Moon is typically just too slow.

Your goal as the burn player is mostly to get the most damage through as fast as possible, and use cheap/efficient hate pieces against opponents you can't really handle. You tend to want to streamline more, or have more 1-for-2 cards (like searing effects, or smashes).

That said, I think it's good to try things out yourself, everyone plays the deck slightly differently, so feeling out your own build and playstyle is very key. Maybe you play in a way where you find moon to be a house.

[amalek0]

I'm trying to lock down my list for SCG DC next week. I'm going to have a fairly intensive week beforehand so I don't want to have to think hard (cast brainstorms).

I'm curious what people's thoughts are on just playing 4 smash/4 firecraft/4 pyrostatic pillar/some extra searing and vortex in the side and just look to punish cantrips from unfair decks?

Second thought: should I be playing swiftspear or not?

[IamHANDSOME]

I'm trying to lock down my list for SCG DC next week. I'm going to have a fairly intensive week beforehand so I don't want to have to think hard (cast brainstorms).

I'm curious what people's thoughts are on just playing 4 smash/4 firecraft/4 pyrostatic pillar/some extra searing and vortex in the side and just look to punish cantrips from unfair decks?

Second thought: should I be playing swiftspear or not?

Exquisitie Firecraft is one of the weaker cards for Burn imo. Normally we are not THIS afraid of counter spells and there are not that many decks which play a lot of counter spells either and 4 damage for 3 mana is still not the best. 4 Pyrostatic Pillar are definitely to much since you don't face so much Storm decks. Against D&T the card doesn't do anything because of the AEther Vial and there are better cards against blue decks. If you play 4 Eidolon in your main deck allready put 1-2 Pillar in the board for the storm matchup.
Vortex and StS are very important cards which you need 2-3 since Life Gain and Chalice of the Void kills you. You also need something against GY and Show and Tell so go for 2-3 Pyroblast and 2-3 Tormod's Crypt/Grafedigger's Cage. I run 2 Ensnaring Bridge in my board because it is good against Dark Depths, Reanimator, Show and Tell builds and Sneak Attack. In my meta I will always face one of these builds at least single time in a torunament so Ensnaring Bridge works against of all this decks while Pyroblast only works against Show and Tell.

Monastery Swiftspear is a must have since it has Haste and attacks instantly. You always have to ask if you have better cards than Swiftspear and right now I dont think so which makes it a must have. My list looks like this:

4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
3 Flame Rift
2 Sulfuric Vortex
19 Mountain

The weakest card in this deck is definitely Flame Rift but since I dont see any better cards I guess 3 still work (My old list was -2 Vortex +1 Mountain +1 Flame Rift but 19 lands are still fine and Id rather draw an other Vortex than the third Flame Rift). The same with Sulfuric Vortex in the main deck, it is more against controlish and Shaman decks. I tested a list with 2 Grim Lavamancer main but didnt like it because Grim Lavamancer has no Haste and its a little bit slow which I didnt like. In the sideboard Lavamancer could work because its quite good to board in the mirror matchup and against something like D&T and more creature lists. No fetchlands either because Stifle will hit you hard! My board:

1 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Pyroblast
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafedigger's Cage
3 Smash to Smithereens
3 Searing Blood

[menph]

I also don't think Exquisite Firecraft is a great card in countertop-less meta, but most of the winning list in the last month run 1-3 sideboard copies.
I which MU it's still needed?


Inviato dal mio SM-A320F utilizzando Tapatalk

[EdsonDettoni]

Hi, i want to share this list i've been playing

The peculiarities are:
(i) 18 lands
(ii) No Fetchland
(ii) 4 Magma Jet
(iii) 4 Volcanic Fallout
(i'm not sure about the 2 Exquisite Firecraft in main, but still is working).

The idea is to increase the consistency and virtual card advantage (i really like Magma Jet), and be ready to kill gain life creatures. Hope you like it.



// Lands
17 [ZEN] Mountain (4a)
1 [OD] Barbarian Ring

// Creatures
4 [ZEN] Goblin Guide

4 [JOU] Eidolon of the Great Revel

// Spells
4 [TSP] Rift Bolt
4 [M11] Lightning Bolt
4 [CHK] Lava Spike
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [EX] Price of Progress
4 [VI] Fireblast

4 [CNS] Volcanic Fallout
4 [THS] Magma Jet
2 [ORI] Exquisite Firecraft

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ORI] Exquisite Firecraft
SB: 4 [BNG] Searing Blood
SB: 3 [ORI] Smash to Smithereens
SB: 1 [DKA] Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 [M15] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [NE] Flame Rift


// Other Sideboard options
SB: 1 [TSP] Sudden Shock
SB: 1 [SC] Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 1 [SC] Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 1 [NPH] Surgical Extraction

[IamHANDSOME]

Hey, I tested Magma Jet quite a lot in this deck and it is not that great. First of all it is a 2 mana spell which makes only 2 damage!! With Burn you want to kill your opponent as fast as possible and having 2 Magma Jets on the hand makes the deck extremely slow. Second point is what do you wanna find to make the Magma Jet worth it? Best case scenario you Scry into 2 lands which you put on the bottom of your library to find the last Fireblast to finish your opponent. If this scenario does not happen the Magma Jet does not let you find more damage than a played Flame Rift instead. You play Magma Jet and scry into Lava Spike and Lightning Bolt. You need both cards anyway for killing your opponent so Magma Jet does not let you find better cards which you will and can play instead. But missing the last 2 damage from a Magma Jet rather than a Flame Rift can cost you the game. Furthermore the word consistency does not apply to Burn like you use it. Burn is allready one of the most consistent decks out there. Since its Mono R you are very limited to the card pool for it so always play the cards with the highest possible damage to outrace your opponent. You can never beat a blue deck with card qualitiy mid and long term anyway so dont even think about it and cut the Magma Jets cause they are just to weak and they dont let you find anything else except more Burn spells you play anyway.

Volcanic Fallout is actually not that bad if your meta is full of D&T, Deathrite Shaman builds and other creature decks but 4 are waaaayyy to much. I mean how bad is T1 Goblin Guide, T2 Eidolon and T3 Volcanic Fallout. Well then you wouldnt play it but you are playing a whole playset of it so this might be likely. Cut the Volcanic Fallout to 2 copies main and 1 in your board and make -4 Mamga Jet +4 Flame Rift. The last 1-2 cards are up to you then, I would add an other land since we talked about consistency and a Sulfuric Vortex. This card is amazing because it comes to the field, stops an active Deathrite Shaman or Batterskull AND makes damage. Never play less than 2 of it main, thats at least my motto ^^

edit: 2 Exquisite Firecraft main: With this card people are kind of dividied but I dont really like it either. You make 4 damage for 3 mana. Trust me it is not that great. How afraid are you of counter spells? Does a lot of spells actually get countered? If this is your meta play them, 2-3 should be fine. Otherwise the card is definitely not worth it since youre spending 3 mana for it. You almost always win the race against other decks and Flame Rift does the same for 2 mana while you can play another 1cc spell after it.

[Brael]

I also don't think Exquisite Firecraft is a great card in countertop-less meta, but most of the winning list in the last month run 1-3 sideboard copies.
I which MU it's still needed?

Firecraft is pretty good, even without countertop around the card packs a strong amount of power for one card. You don't always want raw efficiency, sometimes you just want the maximum possible damage out of a card and the fact that it's probably not being countered is pretty nice.



The idea is to increase the consistency and virtual card advantage (i really like Magma Jet), and be ready to kill gain life creatures. Hope you like it.


I would strongly suggest against Magma Jet. I don't want to rehash it all, but if you look back in this thread about a year and a half ago (summer 2016 I think) you'll find a bunch of posts from me about goldfish simulations. The tl;dr version of this is that I built a simulator capable of goldfishing games of Magic. Then I fed the simulator a bunch of different decklists and strategies, recorded all the information to a database and analyzed the results.

Those results were not kind to Magma Jet. However, they were kind to Exquisite Firecraft, which is likely why you've seen good results from the card. Most likely, we should have been playing more Flame Javelin's years ago.

[Ronald Deuce]

Hello, everyone!

Dirty combo player reporting in. I finally took the plunge and put together a value/aggro deck—this one. For the most part, I've played Storm, Dredge, Reanimator, and sometimes Charbelcher (and Oops!) in Legacy, so I thought I'd try something different. I took the deck out for its maiden voyage at the local 3-rounder on Sunday, losing to Berserk Poison [EDIT: he was really fast in both games] and beating Miracles. Attendance was poor, so I got a bye in round 2. I was hoping to get more testing in, but sic vita est. My list:

16x Bolt clones
4x Price of Progress
4x Fireblast
4x Searing Blaze
4x Goblin Guide
4x Monastery Swiftspear
4x Eidolon of the Great Revel
1x Grim Lavamancer

8x fetches
11x Mountain

My sideboard is a bit up in the air. I'm still getting the feel for the deck, so I have a few questions. Apologies if I'm retreading old ground; I'm a total newby to this deck:
—I really like Flame Rift, but I'm reluctant to run it because it works poorly with Eidolon. Is this often a problem? In what matchups would one side it out?
—Searing Blaze feels great for fighting through dangerous creatures, but it also feels rather finicky—there was at least one situation in which I would've pushed through if it were a 1-costed spell—even a Shock—or a Sudden Shock, but soft-counters turned it off. For people who aren't using it, do you just find it easier to aim for the opponent's face with everything? How often is it worth it to shoot, say, a Deathrite Shaman with a Bolt effect? Is Sudden Shock worthy of consideration?
—I was pleasantly surprised by the deck's ability to grind out the Miracles round, but I felt like I was getting really lucky. I didn't have any copies of Exquisite Firecraft to push through countermagic, I didn't have any answers to Monastery Mentor but Bolts and Blaze, and both victories were courtesy of (clutch) topdecked Fireblasts. I guess I don't have a specific question, but I'm wondering what people's experience with the matchup has been.
—What's the general opinion regarding Molten Vortex? I had one in my sideboard, but I never felt the need to bring it in.
—How often do people 'board out Price of Progress? Card is savage, and it's a good way to fork hard-control decks if they know their topdecks and have an uncracked fetchland. But it felt like I didn't have much game against Miracles with it in spite of that because the Miracles guy wasn't running many nonbasics.
—What in Hell do we do to fight combo decks? Underplayed though I think it is, Mindbreak Trap feels a bit cutesy and ineffective against decks like Storm and Reanimator. I've seen Ensnaring Bridge floating around, but it feels like a tradeoff between shutting down opposing big dudes and slowing down our clock, and there's no guarantee that it'll come down in time to save us. Has anyone tried Stingscourger against Show and Tell and the like?
—Do we have any real outs to Leyline of Sanctity? I guess there's always Sulfuric Vortex and Mans, but that feels like a slipshod plan on which to rely.
—Anybody running sweepers like Pyroclasm or Flamebreak? Earthquake?

Thanks in advance for any and all input!

[Mr. Safety]

I always liked Electrickery as a wiper in the board. It doesn't kill your dudes but does plenty of damage to elves/goblins/tokens. I don't think it actually deals with True Name, but neither do Pyroclasm or Flamebreak. The only other wiper I would use is Volcanic Fallout, which is probably better even though it's 3 mana.

Here are some other really good sideboard cards:

Searing Blood
Ensnaring Bridge
Smash to Smithereens
Pyrostatic Pillar
Sudden Shock
Tormod's Crypt
Forked Bolt


I always really liked TCrypt for storm/reanimator, simply because its fast enough to matter. It's weaker to the Empty plan, but that's where Electrickery can also come in. Surgical is really the only card viable against a t1 reanimator combo; maybe Ravenous Trap. Sneak/Show has a hard time dealing with Ensnaring Bridge, and some lists actually board in Ashen Rider for that specific matchup, which is essentially the same as boarding an off-color leyline. I like Stingscourger a little better than Ashen Rider, just because it can actually be cast.

For what it's worth, I think Burn is one of the best decks in legacy for just top-decking gas without manipulation. I would suggest even going down to 18 lands, and maybe 1-2 Barbarian Ring to make late-game lands not be so bad. As far as dirty combo goes, this is still a dirty combo deck...it just plays on a more fair axis over multiple turns.

[Hanni]

For the intended purpose, Volcanic Spray seems better than Electrickery. For the same cost, it deals 1 point of damage to each player, with additional upside that it has Flashback. The biggest downside is that it doesn't kill Flickerwisp, but the upsides more than make up for it.

[Ace/Homebrew]

It has been some time since I've piloted Burn, but the deck is a machine so most of my input should still be relevant. :wink:

Flame Rift stopped seeing play with the printing of Eidolon. The two do not play well together and I believe you'll find Eidolon won out for good reason.

Searing Blaze and Searing Blood are almost interchangeable. I personally feel Blood is superior in a format of X/2s. With practice you learn which creatures you have to dedicate a bolt to and which you can ignore (most). This is a 7-card combo deck. Each card you dedicate to a creature slows you down. That is why the Searing cards are important in creature matchups; they let you handle the threat while sticking to your game plan.

Pick up 2 copies of Exquisite Firecraft even if they don't always make the cut for your sideboard. My experience was with Sensei's Top Miracles, so my input is dated. The matchup was (IMO) even to slightly-favored for Burn. I found the pilot that had more knowledge of the matchup was able to steal wins.

I don't like Molten Vortex. It's :r::r: + a land just to start doing damage.

Shave PoP during Miracles games 2/3. Game 1 you are likely to still get 2 damage off it unless they know from the beginning you are on Burn. Also cut it against U/R Delver and Nic Fit. Most matches you want it because of how hugely it scales.

For Storm Combo you need to win the die roll and mull to Eidolon. I have seen a lot of lists packing Pyrostatic Pillars in the board for games 2/3. You can't be good against the whole field, otherwise everyone would just be playing Burn. Faster combo decks are bad matchups. Fatty Creature Combo decks is what Ensnaring Bridge is for... mostly Sneak + Show. You'll almost never be casting Bridge because it opens you up to counter-magic, plus you'll likely be too slow as you mentioned. Bridge comes in as your 'Show' target. If you have 1 or 2 cards in hand then it doesn't stop your attacks.

Sweepers aren't usually included, although during SDT Miracles era I remember Volcanic Fallout pulling it's weight. 3 mana might as well be a million, but it is uncounterable and hits the dome too. But what situations are you finding yourself in that you need a sweeper? If it's against Storm... then you've already lost that game. Otherwise the decks that swarm take a few turns to get there. You should have your opponent at a low enough life by that point where your top deck is threatening to kill them just as much as their swarm is threatening to kill you.



As far as sideboard configurations...

4 Faerie Macabre
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Red Elemental Blast or Pyroblast

Your main deck is fine and you can ignore my musings, but I'd consider swapping Blaze for Blood, cutting a land to add another Lavamancer (he seems good right now).
And to support Lavamancer, I'd probably go 10 fetch and 8 basics. That would also help you out if you continue using Blaze.

[Mr. Safety]

For the intended purpose, Volcanic Spray seems better than Electrickery. For the same cost, it deals 1 point of damage to each player, with additional upside that it has Flashback. The biggest downside is that it doesn't kill Flickerwisp, but the upsides more than make up for it.

Not instant? No flyers?

No thank you. At that point, Pyroclasm is far superior.

@Ace: nice catch on Faerie Macabre, another really good option.

[Hanni]

Not instant? No flyers?

No thank you. At that point, Pyroclasm is far superior.

@Ace: nice catch on Faerie Macabre, another really good option.

Why does it need to be instant or hit fliers? What matchups were you worried about having sweepers for in the first place? I mean, Forked Bolt is probably just the better spell in the majority of cases. The times where you'd actually care to have a sweeper, being sorcery and not hitting fliers is basically irrelevant. Inkmoth Nexus is the only case I can think of where I'd actually care, and while that is certainly a matchup that is worth considering Eletrickery over Volcanic Spray, the fact that Spray can be cast twice and deals damage to players seems more relevant everywhere else.

I'd rather have Spray against Elves and D&T, it's still good against Infect, and it's decent against Grixis Delver and Czech Pile (matchups where I would not want to board into Electrickery at all).

Regardless, I'm of the opinion that the deck doesn't need sweepers. But if I was considering sweepers, I'd be more inclined to consider Forked Bolt and Volcanic Spray before the other available options.

[Ace/Homebrew]

I stand by my earlier statement RE: sweepers... but instant > sorcery. The small opportunities to gain advantage with a linear deck like burn exist in sequencing and instants allow for that in ways sorceries cannot. As an example, you can overload Electrickery when an opponent goes to fetch.

Sorceries have to be more powerful in order to compete for space with instants, and the reusability of Volcanic Spray is close, but if I don't think an effect is worth it once then having the ability to do it twice won't entice me. I'd be more enticed by the proposition that I could catch someone off guard with it.

Ignore my proposed main deck and sideboard above. If I were to play Burn today it would be this list:
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=25474&iddeck=199985
Only I'd use Faerie Macabre over Leylines.

[Mr. Safety]

Why does it need to be instant or hit fliers? What matchups were you worried about having sweepers for in the first place? I mean, Forked Bolt is probably just the better spell in the majority of cases. The times where you'd actually care to have a sweeper, being sorcery and not hitting fliers is basically irrelevant. Inkmoth Nexus is the only case I can think of where I'd actually care, and while that is certainly a matchup that is worth considering Eletrickery over Volcanic Spray, the fact that Spray can be cast twice and deals damage to players seems more relevant everywhere else.

I'd rather have Spray against Elves and D&T, it's still good against Infect, and it's decent against Grixis Delver and Czech Pile (matchups where I would not want to board into Electrickery at all).

Regardless, I'm of the opinion that the deck doesn't need sweepers. But if I was considering sweepers, I'd be more inclined to consider Forked Bolt and Volcanic Spray before the other available options.

Fair enough. In defense of Electrickery, it can be cast for only 1 mana and kill one elf, or if you have the mana it can be cast in response to a Heritage Druid activation and disrupt a Glimpse chain. Forked Bolt is probably the card I would go to after Electrickery, and Volcanic Fallout was tech used against miracles for Mentor + tokens. I definitely agree that the flashback option is sexy, and puts its long game value above Fallout/Electrickery in most cases. I just haven't seen Spray in *any* burn decklists (to be fair, I haven't seen Electrickery either, lol.) The saturation of Deathrite Shaman in my meta however also makes flashback in the late game a little less reliable. I think what makes your argument the strongest is the fact that it deals damage to players as well, which is incredibly important for Burn.

Regarding flyers, I play in a meta that has a lot of Stoneblade, and higher than average number of Lingering Souls. Beating a souls token with a Jitte is actually pretty difficult if you haven't gotten within Fireblast range yet. There are also a couple of grixis variants that are still on Young Pyromancer, which makes Electrickery and its flexibility very good.

One card I never really understood for Burn sideboards is Pyroblast effects. I get that at one point Omni-Tell was a huge deck to beat, and Pyroblast against blue-based combo like Show and Tell is quite good. Beyond that matchup, I don't think I would ever board in Pyroblast when I would have to take a Bolt out to fit it in. Ensnaring Bridge always seem better to me against traditional Sneak/Show, and it has splash damage against Angler/Tarmogoyf/Knight of the Reliquary/Dark Depths.

One card I don't see very often in Burn sideboard, and maybe its just a mistake, is Blood Moon. Without acceleration it does seem lackluster, and probably just too slow.

I hope you see that this is not a snide argument, just general discussion. I value your comments immensely.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Pyroblast and/or Red Elemental Blast are the only non-graveyard hate cards that do no damage but are still worth consideration. You aren't bringing them in to destroy a Delver or to counter Ponders. They are for destroying Jace or countering Show and Tell! Or to make sure the Fireblast kills your opponent. :wink:

[Mr. Safety]

Pyroblast and/or Red Elemental Blast are the only non-graveyard hate cards that do no damage but are still worth consideration. You aren't bringing them in to destroy a Delver or to counter Ponders. They are for destroying Jace or countering Show and Tell! Or to make sure the Fireblast kills your opponent. :wink:

Fair enough, but I don't think I've ever pointed a burn spell at Jace, like ever...and I already recognized that it has value against Show and Tell. I just don't think its enough against that particular deck. I would also want Ensnaring Bridge in some number. Very meta dependant, mine has only 1 Show and Tell player. At a large event it would definitely be something to be prepared for.

[Ace/Homebrew]

I already recognized that it has value against Show and Tell.
You totally did. :smile:
I stepped on a soapbox for a moment there.

[Ronald Deuce]

Thanks a lot for the input, everybody!

So the good news is that I've got access to all the cards you guys have mentioned except an extra Lavaman (traded one away about 6 months ago :( ) and Ensnaring Bridges. Here's what my sideboard looks like at the moment:

4x Smash to Smithereens
2x Sulfuric Vortex
2x Pyroblast
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Exquisite Firecraft
2x Pyrostatic Pillar
1x Molten Vortex

I'll probably be replacing the Molten Vortex with more graveyard hate, and I'm likely going to switch my Extractions to Faeries. If I go to a full quad of yard-hate cards, I might bring in Leyline instead.

I'm considering bringing in Stingscourger over Pyroblast, but I haven't decided for sure that I want to try that. Maybe Ensnaring Bridge is just generally better, but I don't have those yet.

Thanks again for the advice and input! I'll be keeping an eye on the thread and will try to give more info the next time I take the deck for a spin.

[Mr. Safety]

Thanks a lot for the input, everybody!

So the good news is that I've got access to all the cards you guys have mentioned except an extra Lavaman (traded one away about 6 months ago :( ) and Ensnaring Bridges. Here's what my sideboard looks like at the moment:

4x Smash to Smithereens
2x Sulfuric Vortex
2x Pyroblast
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Exquisite Firecraft
2x Pyrostatic Pillar
1x Molten Vortex

I'll probably be replacing the Molten Vortex with more graveyard hate, and I'm likely going to switch my Extractions to Faeries. If I go to a full quad of yard-hate cards, I might bring in Leyline instead.

I'm considering bringing in Stingscourger over Pyroblast, but I haven't decided for sure that I want to try that. Maybe Ensnaring Bridge is just generally better, but I don't have those yet.

Thanks again for the advice and input! I'll be keeping an eye on the thread and will try to give more info the next time I take the deck for a spin.

I think Stingscourger is a sub for Bridge, not Pyroblast. Pyroblast would take other slots like Surgical, Molten Vortex, etc. I can't remember, are you playing Sulfuric Vortex main? I would suggest 1-2 maindeck for sure. It is incredible against grindy matchups.

I wouldn't swap Surgical with Faerie Macabre, not if you have Surgicals available. If you only have 2 Surgicals (like me) then I would fill out the grave-hate slots with 2x Faerie Macabre or Tormod's Crypt. FM is better against Reanimator, Crypt is better against Storm.

Another card that could be very good is Scab-Clan Berserker against Storm. Ruby Storm decks have been sideboarding it and it's really good. The haste factor is also quite good, which means it can get in and get renowned even against fair decks (sometimes.)

[Stuart]

Only I'd use Faerie Macabre over Leylines.

Played Burn last night with 4 Faeries in the board, as a local guy’s been on RB Reanimator lately. I ran into him last night and lost 1-2. I won game 2 off the back of Faerie, which felt great. However, a point of concern: Faerie makes for weird mull decisions. In game 3, I had a great 7 with no Faerie, so I decided to go to 6. 6 was the same, so I went to 5. Still no Faerie, but I kept because I figured that if I kept mulling I wouldn’t have enough Burn to win. Of course I lost handily because 5 cards + no grave hate doesn’t stand a fucking chance against Reanimator.

Leyline is mentally easier, because you can commit to going all in for it and knowing it’s strong enough to be worth it. If you’re playing Faerie (or any other grave hate), knowing when to keep and when to mull gets a lot harder. And we all know that Burn should never make you think :wink:.

[scaryrawr]

Played Burn last night with 4 Faeries in the board, as a local guy’s been on RB Reanimator lately. I ran into him last night and lost 1-2. I won game 2 off the back of Faerie, which felt great. However, a point of concern: Faerie makes for weird mull decisions. In game 3, I had a great 7 with no Faerie, so I decided to go to 6. 6 was the same, so I went to 5. Still no Faerie, but I kept because I figured that if I kept mulling I wouldn’t have enough Burn to win. Of course I lost handily because 5 cards + no grave hate doesn’t stand a fucking chance against Reanimator.

Leyline is mentally easier, because you can commit to going all in for it and knowing it’s strong enough to be worth it. If you’re playing Faerie (or any other grave hate), knowing when to keep and when to mull gets a lot harder. And we all know that Burn should never make you think :wink:.

Yeah... I tend to just give up our really bad match ups. I'd rather improve all my other ones, especially with delver and miracles back on the rise and Czech Pile still being so popular. Reanimator tends to not show up too much in my meta (all the Deathrite Shamans running around). Like you said, permanent graveyard hate tends to feel better (I use to do 2 Faerie Macabre and 2 Grafdigger's Cage I'm trying out 2 Faeries and 2 Surgical Extractions). I change my feeling though, sometimes I try to side to fight the really bad match ups.

[Mr. Safety]

Any reason why Tormod's Crypt wouldn't be a good option? On the draw against reanimator you can just lose (been there, done that) but if you're on the play or they don't have the t1, Crypt can be incredibly good. Similar to Faerie, because it's free you can continue your game plan. Crypt has incredible use against storm as well, a matchup that can be a roll of the dice. In my metagame, there's almost always at least 1-2 dredge players, regardless of where the format is positioned.

[B is for Big Job]

Any reason why Tormod's Crypt wouldn't be a good option? On the draw against reanimator you can just lose (been there, done that) but if you're on the play or they don't have the t1, Crypt can be incredibly good. Similar to Faerie, because it's free you can continue your game plan. Crypt has incredible use against storm as well, a matchup that can be a roll of the dice. In my metagame, there's almost always at least 1-2 dredge players, regardless of where the format is positioned.

It is one of the better options but I believe it's because of the off chance it can be Pithing Needled in game 3 if it gets that far, which would also require siding in Smash or other hate for said Needle(if you knew Needle was coming in). Either way the deck is hamstrung by having to mull to GY hate in the opening hand and mulling until you find some regardless if its Leyline, Faerie, or Crypt. *2 cents has been deposited*

[scaryrawr]

Any reason why Tormod's Crypt wouldn't be a good option? On the draw against reanimator you can just lose (been there, done that) but if you're on the play or they don't have the t1, Crypt can be incredibly good. Similar to Faerie, because it's free you can continue your game plan. Crypt has incredible use against storm as well, a matchup that can be a roll of the dice. In my metagame, there's almost always at least 1-2 dredge players, regardless of where the format is positioned.

It's not a bad option. The two biggest things against it are it's sorcery speed and Chancellor of the Annex. I think it's also the big reason we see Faerie Macabre and Leyline of the Void being the more common choices of graveyard hate because it doesn't matter if you're on the play or draw. Being a 0 drop, I think it's really nice on the play against Chancellor though.

I'm thinking of running without graveyard hate here soon though. I got turned one multiple times against Storm, and I haven't seen too much reanimator in the Seattle meta. I think with Miracles making a come back, I want to increase my number of Exquisite Firecraft and am actually thinking of putting Flame Rift in the side to just try going faster against non interactive match ups.

[IamHANDSOME]

has anybody ever tested a single copy of Thunderous Wrath main?

[scaryrawr]

has anybody ever tested a single copy of Thunderous Wrath main?

I've gold-fished with it, but I haven't actually played it, I think I tried it once in pauper burn though just to make a point (I'm bias against the card).

I think it works better in a UR Delver build since they have access to Brainstorm and can set it up.

The other thing I don't like is that it can mess up your lines, when you draw it, you have to play it, otherwise you'll never be able to play it (unless you horribly flood and the game goes long). Sometimes you have to Searing Blaze or jam Sulfuric Vortex, and then! You draw Thunderous Wrath... what do you do?

I think if you're playing Sullivan's Burn (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/instant-deck-tech-sullivan-burn-legacy), it might be worth cutting a mountain for 1, since I think the main board is designed to just point everything at the face, and 20 mountains seems a little too much to me.

[mistercakes]

it's likely strictly worse than regular burn builds, but if you like prowess and miracle effect in mono red you can try something like this


4 lightning bolt
4 chain lightning
4 fireblast
4 price of progress
2 thunderous wrath
4 rift bolt
4 goblin guide
4 eidolon of the great revel
4 monastery swiftspear
4 urza's bauble
4 mishra's bauble
9 mountain
3 arid mesa
3 scalding tarn
3 bloodstained mire


you can even mishra's bauble yourself and if you don't see it you can crack a fetch or choose to spend your mana more efficiently.

so this build is lacking the searing blaze, lava spike, and grim lavamancer from the traditional build. i suppose if you're in a heavy creature metagame i would prefer the blaze and lavamancer.

[Ronald Deuce]

has anybody ever tested a single copy of Thunderous Wrath main?

I can think of a number of good ways to optimize Wrath's Miracle effect in decks that manipulate their top cards, but the major problem with Wrath is that you can't do anything realistic with it if you don't topdeck it. I don't like the risk of drawing it in our openers, and we don't have any good ways to shed it if it's there.

The thought of running it had definitely crossed my mind, but if you're looking for bang-for-buck one-drops, why not use Vexing Devil (which has its own issues)?

[Mulldrifter4U]

Looking at the 19th place list from this weekend's challenge https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2017-12-25, I wanted to discuss Karakas as a sideboard option. It seems like it is a partial replacement for graveyard hate, as the biggest problem card from reanimator is Iona. It also helps out immensely with sneak and show, which I currently do not have anything in my board for (it isn't popular in my local meta) and on rare occasion can bounce a marit lage.

Is Karakas a viable sideboard card or is it better left to faerie/leyline and hoping to dodge SnS?

[IamHANDSOME]

I can think of a number of good ways to optimize Wrath's Miracle effect in decks that manipulate their top cards, but the major problem with Wrath is that you can't do anything realistic with it if you don't topdeck it. I don't like the risk of drawing it in our openers, and we don't have any good ways to shed it if it's there.

The thought of running it had definitely crossed my mind, but if you're looking for bang-for-buck one-drops, why not use Vexing Devil (which has its own issues)?

My idea behind Thunderous Wrath in Burn:
There are 2 scenarios in the game you cannot cast it. If its in your opening hand or if its the first card you draw being on the draw at the beginning of the match. In Burn you almost never have to go for mulligans since it is a very very consistent deck so I think you can afford to play maybe 1 mulligan a day if you compare the probability for having it in your opening hand. In all the other situations you will play it for sure!
Postboard you ALWAYS board it out since we never want draw our boarded cards but have to play a mulligan because Wrath is in our opening hand. Or sometimes you are facing Batterskull which didnt attack yet, you must play Sulfuric Vortex but cant because you topdeck Thunderous Wrath (in that case you can remove the Batterskull token with Thunderous Wrath but still this scenario could handicap you). Also as more "hate cards" such as Vortex, Searing Blaze or Exquisite Firecraft are in your main deck, you probably preparing for a special meta and will not play it. The list Im referring to is this one:

4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
2 Flame Rift
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Thunderous Wrath
12 Mountain
8 red Fetchlands

For example in my meta there are quite a lot of combo decks such as Storm, Reanimator, Show and Tell, "Big Eldrazi", Sneak Attack, Food Chain, etc. which cards like Searing Blaze, Grim Lavamancer or Exquisite Firecraft main are simply not that good. So I definitely play Flame Rift for making more damage because nobody is able to win the race against me (in a meta full of Delver decks and mirrors Flame Rift gets really shitty). Since you never really want to draw more than 2 of them maximum you easily take out 1-2 for a single copy of Thunderous Wrath and another card of your choice. I always go for Vortex, I just love this card, but this is just an personal preferences. When sideboarding in most of the matches I board Thunderous Wrath out. In the main build it works quite good because we do not interact with Grim Lavamancer or Searing Blaze anyway !

[Ace/Homebrew]

Is Karakas a viable sideboard card or is it better left to faerie/leyline and hoping to dodge SnS?
Karakas is a viable sideboard card. It has appeared in the sideboard of more than just Burn to combat strategies that cheat fatties into play. I would be interested in hearing how that player sideboards when they're boarding in 4 Karakas...
TCDecks has lists with copies in the sideboard: http://tcdecks.net/results.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=&nhigh=&from=&to=&player=&aname=Burn&dname=&format=Legacy&main=&nomain=&side=Karakas&noside=&strict=on

RE: Thunderous Wrath
Miracle cards (the mechanic, not the deck) are pretty terrible if you don't play Brainstorm. Having said that, it occasionally shows up in a Burn list on TCDecks.
http://tcdecks.net/results.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=&nhigh=&from=&to=&player=&aname=&dname=&format=Legacy&main=thunderous+wrath&nomain=&side=&noside=&strict=on

[scaryrawr]

Looking at the 19th place list from this weekend's challenge https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2017-12-25, I wanted to discuss Karakas as a sideboard option. It seems like it is a partial replacement for graveyard hate, as the biggest problem card from reanimator is Iona. It also helps out immensely with sneak and show, which I currently do not have anything in my board for (it isn't popular in my local meta) and on rare occasion can bounce a marit lage.

Is Karakas a viable sideboard card or is it better left to faerie/leyline and hoping to dodge SnS?

It's definitely "viable", but you really want to side board for your expected meta. Reanimator is currently hiding and waiting for the meta to be too comfortable not expecting it (I'm told the chat is planning on spiking the April GP, especially with new Miracles on the rise, Maverick and other decks coming back, seems good). Show and Tell I feel will always just be bad, even if you have Karakas, they might go off through sneak attack or omniscience, etc. I'd rather battle it with cards that are more useful in other match ups as well. Graveyard hate is good against Life from the Loam decks, Dredge, etc. Pyroblast can be useful against blue decks, Ensnaring Bridge can be useful against elves, reanimator, and Lands as well (as well as some other decks with beaters (there's a video where Patrick Sullivan brings it in against RUG Delver to make RUG Delver side board for Ensnaring Bridge where he takes it out after his opponent had seen it)). I do think Karakas is probably better than Ashen Rider, but I feel Ashen Rider is more fun as dedicated hate...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYcMLfJlGGo

[Mulldrifter4U]

I'll check out that video later; I hadn't thought about ensnaring bridge against delver. I'm just always a little unsure of a sideboard at larger events. My local meta is super fair, so I typically have 8 searing blaze/blood in the 75 which goes well. Not ideal for anything larger though.
Edit: I always have 4 smash to smithereens, chalice is miserable.

[scaryrawr]

Has anyone thought of just splashing blue for 4 Brainstorms? I think it feels bad with Eidolon of the Great Revel. But like, maybe take out Lava Spike for them? Or a mix of Lava Spike and Rift Bolt? It also gives access to Flusterstorm in the side.

I remember running a 1 of Sensei's Divining Top which actually felt really nice mid to late game, especially since you could always float an instant, and it made Jace, the Mind Sculptor less miserable, also was great since you could dig for Smash to Smithereens if you got it out before opponent lands Chalice of the Void.

I'm mixed on it myself, I don't really want to try it (I'm kind of a purist of every card should be red)... I want someone else to try it and tell me it's amazing. I just feel at times when we're top decking and have a bunch of land in hand pretending we have it, that being able to Brainstorm for actual gas would be pretty sweet. I don't want to go down the path of UR Delver, I feel that deck is full of too many cantrips and not enough gas. I feel it would just be a late game card for us, where we always use it for that "Perfect Brainstorm."

[Ronald Deuce]

Has anyone thought of just splashing blue for 4 Brainstorms?

I don't feel like it would really do anything for us, though I definitely feel the frustration of drawing land after land when we just need one more spell. I feel like the game's gotten away from us already by the time it would do anything for us, and I don't like the idea of fetching for a Volc when we're interested in finding something heavy-duty like Price of Progress or we're trying to push through under an Eidolon of our own making.

Interested to hear whether anyone has tried it, though!

[IamHANDSOME]

Interested to hear whether anyone has tried it, though!

I tried it and it does not work. The reason for this is that Burn behaves a little bit like a combo deck because the gameplan is soooo monotonical. You dont have room for non burn or non haste creatures, Burns gameplan is super strict. Burn can only win through Burn or Burn like creatures. Because of this there is nothing better to find with a Brainstorm than an other Burn spell, but for Brainstorm you can allready play the burn spell instead which you are looking for in the first place. This is why the card doesnt do anything because you dont have more to offer than Burn spells. The scenario of playing Brainstorm and fetching lands away which allready cost you a card (Brainstorm) should be pretty rare, thats why you run 19-20 lands and fetchlands to thin out your library. And playing Brainstorm only to have a higher chance for finding your sideboard cards is not how the deck works.

Also I tried Magma Jet and even this sucks 90% of the time. I always asked myself before playing Magma Jet: "Which cards do I wanna scry, which cards do I wanna find?" 1 out of 10 games I wanted to find PoP instead of Lightning Bolt or Fireblast instead of Goblin Guide. But since I allready spent 2 mana for 2 damage which is pretty weak I allready lost 1-2 damage which could have won me the game in the first place. All of these cards such as Brainstorm, Magma Jet etc. will cost you a card with none or very little damage and does not reward you at the end.

[GodzillaBig]

How do we feel about the new pseudo-snapcaster pirate? You think he may be worth testing as a 1 or 2 of?

GB

[scaryrawr]

How do we feel about the new pseudo-snapcaster pirate? You think he may be worth testing as a 1 or 2 of?

GB

People brought this up on the LavaSpike sub reddit.

What match ups does it benefit? What spell does the opponent have that you're really after?
What are you taking out for it?
What's the expected amount of damage out of it? Our goal is for every cards to do a minimum of 3 damage, that way if we resolve 7 spells we win.
How is it better than Ash Zealot, Harsh Mentor, Grenzo, Havoc Raiser, Abbot of Keral Keep, Kari Zev, Skyship Raider, etc? Everything at the 2 drop slot is really trying to be at the same level as Eidolon of the Great Revel, there are many good 2 drop red creatures, most of which don't see play.
Even though it's a 2 drop, it's really competing for your 3/4 drop slot, which I'd at least want 4 damage off of it then.


I'd say if you want to try it, give it a chance, but I think it's better to consider some of the other 2 drops in red first.

[ThomasDowd]

Have people still been liking swiftspear with how it seems like the format is swinging back to be more creature focused? or do i have a bad read on how prevalent creatures are right now?

if creatures are more prevalent what have y'all been playing in those slots?

[adrieng]

What about a very slight green splash for crop rotation in side ?
Crop rotation gives you hate against dark depth wasteland+karakas ; hate against B/R reanimator bojuka bog
and against show and tell karakas.
I think it is good side option against our weakest matchups. Just 2 taiga and that's fine. I am a dark depth player and I believe crop is the best hate or a 3 off karakas in side.

[Speedbump]

What about a very slight green splash for crop rotation in side ?
Crop rotation gives you hate against dark depth wasteland+karakas ; hate against B/R reanimator bojuka bog
and against show and tell karakas.
I think it is good side option against our weakest matchups. Just 2 taiga and that's fine. I am a dark depth player and I believe crop is the best hate or a 3 off karakas in side.Crop Rotation is probably one of the worst suggestions I've seen made for a Burn deck.

Doesn't actively do anything.

[Mr. Safety]

If you're having trouble with S&T or Depths, wouldn't Ensnaring Bridge or Stingscourger be a little more productive? Blood Moon would be decent against Depths as well. Pithing Needle on Griselbrand is good. A green splash for Sylvan Library, Tarmogoyf, Krosan Grip, or Destructive Revelry at least passes the straight face test. I'm all for playing janky stuff like CR in a non-lands deck, but it would be to also support Depths. Taking advantage of the toolbox is cool, but in a critical mass deck like Burn the slots are likely not going to be productive enough. It would be the equivalent of boarding off-color Leylines but having to dedicate more than 4 slots to do it.

[Ronald Deuce]

If you're having trouble with S&T or Depths, wouldn't Ensnaring Bridge or Stingscourger be a little more productive? Blood Moon would be decent against Depths as well. Pithing Needle on Griselbrand is good. A green splash for Sylvan Library, Tarmogoyf, Krosan Grip, or Destructive Revelry at least passes the straight face test. I'm all for playing janky stuff like CR in a non-lands deck, but it would be to also support Depths. Taking advantage of the toolbox is cool, but in a critical mass deck like Burn the slots are likely not going to be productive enough.

I'm inclined to agree. I think it's still going to be a really rough matchup, but I'd think some of those are better options. (As caveats for what I'm about to say, most of my Legacy experience is with Storm, which functions very differently in a large number of ways, and I'm not afraid to be bold in my opinions.) Crop Rotation feels like it would take up a ton of sideboard space, which is almost always a problem. Storm could afford to throw nine cards at Miracles because, frankly, the deck could function adequately with only a ten-card 'board if that matchup didn't exist. Four Crop Rots, a Chasm, and a Bog would force us to make a huge change to our deck's basic functionality for a matchup in which we're already distinctly not favored.

For the sake of argument (and I'm not seriously suggesting this), why wouldn't we splash blue for Chain of Vapor? Still, imo, Storm's most underrated sideboard card, and a one-sided StP against Marit Lage.


Have people still been liking swiftspear with how it seems like the format is swinging back to be more creature focused? or do i have a bad read on how prevalent creatures are right now?

Creatures are still the most efficient way to deal damage in Magic, and scrumming will often set the opponents back more than it would us. I don't see any reason to cut them, though my Burn experience is limited.

[Mr. Safety]

Definitely a rough matchup, and it seems that S&T is gaining in popularity again. I'd be boarding Bridges/Needles for sure, probably at least 2 of each.

[TheLostSon]

(I haven't played in like a year and couldn't find my account details for the source, so I just made a new one..)

So I played a smaller local event, didn't do all that great, but will write up what happened to maybe spark up some discussion.

The Decklist was as follows:


4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt

4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast

2 Searing Blood
2 Sulfuric Vortex


Sideboard:

3 Smash to Smithereens
4 Fairie Macabre
3 Exquisite Firecraft
2 Searing Blood
1 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Pyrostatic Pillar

I hadn't played in a while, so the Sideboard configuration is basically the average of the last hand full of sucessfull decklists discussed here and on mtgtop8 (3 Smash, 4 Gravehate, 2 Pillar etc.). I thought a moment about bringing something (Karakas) to target Show and Tell, but decided against.


To the matches.
First Round was against Food Chain, which I didn't expect to see (2 peope showed up playing it).
Game 1 I mulliganed down to 5 with the first to hands both having 4 Land and the last one 3. Then I countinued to draw above average numbers of land which was only enough to get him down to 6.
(Note: They can just spend 4 Mana to put an additional counter on Walking Ballista to do two more damage.)

So I had pretty much nothing great against him on the Board.
-2 Sulfuric Vortex
-1 Mountain (pretty sure thats a bad decision; I was a little bummed about the flood and 19 still felt reasonable)
-2 Price of Progress
+3 Exquisite Firecraft
+2 Pyrostatic Pillar
This felt a little loose, but the plan was to get a little bit faster and disrupt his setup with Pillar.

My notes for the second game are sadly incomplete, but I got beaten down by his man plan and didn't get pressure on.
0-1

Second Round was against Esper Deathblade.
Game 1 I had a great hand with a turn 1 Swiftspear and killed him fast with me ending on 14 life.

For Sideboarding I felt like I have time in this matchup so I decided to go a little bigger.

-4 Lava Spike
-1 Rift Bolt
-4 Price of Progress (He was almost always fetching for basics the whole match, so this felt right.)

+ 3 Exquisite Firecraft
+ 3 Smash to Smithereens
+ 2 Searing Blood
+ 1 Sulfuric Vortex

Game 2 he had Swords to Plowshares for my turn 1 Goblin Guide. Then he managed to stick a Jitte to a True Name Nemesis on 7 life with a Batterskull in hand.

Game 3 went pretty much the same. Removal on a turn 1 Goblin Guide and winning with equipment.
I was surprised that he managed to get all his colors without ever fetching for a 2nd dual.
0-2

So at this point I am feeling rather bad about my performance, but decide to play it out to get some more testing in.

Round 3 was againt UR Splinter Twinn.
Game 1 I just have a solid start with a turn 1 Goblin Guide, and the proceed to Searing Blood a Pestermite and kill him rather quickly.

Sideboarding:
-4 Price of Progress
-2 Sulfuric Vortex
+2 Searing Blood
+2 Pyrostatic Pillar
+2 Exquisite Firecraft
The idea is to become a little faster to race, interact with his creatures and discupt his cantrips with Pillar.

Game 2 I have a start without a creature and drop a turn 2 Pillar.
He has sided in some True Name Nemesis, which starts chipping away at my life total while I reduce his.
The game ends in me being on 6 while he is on 8. I have 2 Searing Blood and a Fireblast in hand, a Pillar for me and he has TNN and an Exarch in play.
So on his upkeep I cast the two Searing Bloods on his Exarch (1/4) which has him call a judge and explain delayed triggers to him. That puts me at 2 and he responds with a Lightning Bolt targetting me. Well thats that.

-2 Pillar (Felt bad against a deck which has some reach and a sideboarded clock where it doesn't disrupt the combo but just the cantrips).
+1 Exquisite Firecraft
+1 Sulfuric Vortex

Game 3 I keep a nice 1 land hand with a Goblin Guide, Swiftspear, 2 Bolts and 2 2 mana spells, but I never draw the second land. He struggles for a while to find the Splinter Twinn, but manages to combo off on 1 life.
So he sided out all the Pestermites and with that it was most likely wrong to keep the Searing Bloods in.

0-3

Round 4 is against Miracles, which I am rather happy about as I did want to test against the "new" version without top and with predict and Azcanta. He played a rather classic version planning to kill with Jace or Entreat.

Game 1 he has a turn 2 Counterbalance, which does a lot of work and manages to make 4 Angels while on 8 life which I can't race.

Sideboarding:
-4 PoP
-2 Searing Blood
+3 Firecraft
+1 Vortex
+2 Pyrostatic (feels a little better here as there is a lot of time, and supporting CB without Top requires more cantrips)

Game 2 he Swords a turn 1 Goblin Guide. He brought in a Surgical Extraction wich removes all my Lightning Bolts, but donesn't hit my hand, which feels wrong to me as that just cost him a card and 2 life while achieving almost nothing. He doesn't have a lot of action and I manage to get him down to 3 when a Firecraft kills him.

Game 3 he has Swords for 2 Creatures manages to get a Counterbalance out but doesn't manage to pressure me at all. He playes a Jace on 6 life and starts Fatesealing but I already have a Fireblast in hand, draw a Bolt which I manage to sneak past the CB and the Blast kills him.

1-3
So I felt a little better after defeating Miracles, but after all was a little disappointed about the games where I either had too many land or didn't draw any. That's the risk we take not playing blue, but it still feels like you didn't make mistakes to lose the game, but just had bad luck. Exept for 1 Dredge deck there was no graveyard reliant deck in the room, but I still felt it was right to show up with hate. Might change that thogh.
Other decks I saw where multiple copies of Mircales, Punishing Jund, Elves, and a Ravager Shops deck without Shops (MUD).

2 Starting Questions:
What do you guys think about keeping 1 landers? The odds to draw another one are round 38% after that which maybe just is to low, but having like 3 to 4 1 mana spells where 1 is a creature always is tempting to me.

What would be good hate against Food Chain that also hits other decks that are relevant. I am considering Pyroblast and the like but that feels rather low impact.

edit: So Pithing Needle might also work, but I haven't played that in a Burn Sideboard ever. What are your experiences with that. And what about Phyrexian Revoker? I like that it has a body, but is that a liability against the decks we want that effect against and how bad is 2 mana compared to 1?

[scaryrawr]

Have people still been liking swiftspear with how it seems like the format is swinging back to be more creature focused? or do i have a bad read on how prevalent creatures are right now?

if creatures are more prevalent what have y'all been playing in those slots?

I'm actually trying a 3/3 split of Monastery Swiftspear and Grim Lavamancer. I feel swiftspear is still good, but I'm feel for fair matchups, we do want to be able to clear the board for Goblin Guide and other creatures to get through. The meta is in a weird spot I feel. We ahve a lot of control/midrange decks where Grim is stronger, but we also have a lot of combo decks where Swiftspear I think is stronger.

[Ronald Deuce]

I'm actually trying a 3/3 split of Monastery Swiftspear and Grim Lavamancer. I feel swiftspear is still good, but I'm feel for fair matchups, we do want to be able to clear the board for Goblin Guide and other creatures to get through. The meta is in a weird spot I feel. We ahve a lot of control/midrange decks where Grim is stronger, but we also have a lot of combo decks where Swiftspear I think is stronger.

One thing I've noticed about Lavaman is that people seem to think he's an inordinately high-value target. Most times he resolves, I don't even get the chance to activate him before he gets killed. Now that can be good or bad, depending on what we've got in our hand, what we're facing, and other things, but I tend to feel like snowballing "minor threat" cards can get us there more effectively than playing heavy-duty but vulnerable guys. Obviously this depends on the matchup and the rest of our build, but I feel like the dichotomy is real.

A related question: how often do you feel like you get the chance to activate Lavaman multiple times in a game?

Not trying to denigrate your plan; I'm genuinely interested in more info.

[IamHANDSOME]

One thing I've noticed about Lavaman is that people seem to think he's an inordinately high-value target. Most times he resolves, I don't even get the chance to activate him before he gets killed. Now that can be good or bad, depending on what we've got in our hand, what we're facing, and other things, but I tend to feel like snowballing "minor threat" cards can get us there more effectively than playing heavy-duty but vulnerable guys. Obviously this depends on the matchup and the rest of our build, but I feel like the dichotomy is real.

A related question: how often do you feel like you get the chance to activate Lavaman multiple times in a game?

Not trying to denigrate your plan; I'm genuinely interested in more info.

The thing with Lavamancer: It is not about pinging your opponent for 2 every round. Lavamancer is a free removal spell for most of the meta games creatures. This is where Lavamancer is devestating. So people will most of the time kill Lavamancer afap unless they have 2 Gurmag Angler on the field and race you. Since Burn uses it spells on the opponents face and not on the creatures (or very very rarely) Lavamancer shines not in Burn but in Ur Delver or aggressive Sligh, Zoo and Urx lists. Still you should play Lavamancer in Burn to creature more card value since he has the potential. Very often after played all of my spells, my opponent is on 5 and I dont have any more cards in hand. He plays Brainstorm and Ponder and finds the relevant counter spells for my next spells and I rely on topdecking. Getting Lavamancer or having him active could win you the game. The same also counts with Sulfuric Vortex except Vortex is actually the pinging Lavamancer and Lavamancer is a free removal spell. Still 3 Lavamancer seem way to high for me so never play more than 2 in a Burn deck imho.

Also to the debate Swiftspear vs. Lavamancer: Swiftspear is a pretty good creature which can easily grow to 3 in a Burn deck. I would not like to miss Swiftspear in my list. Goblin Guide on the other hand often feels much weaker. The Goblin is stronger at the beginning but can accelerate your opponent tremendously by letting them draw 1-2 lands. This can let your opponent find his counterspells or the Show and Tell he needs for comboing you etc. I actually hate the fact playing an aggressive deck and help my opponent find more solutions against our spells and creatures. I remember a time back in 2010 when you played 4-6 creatures in your Burn deck to weaken creature removal spells such as Swords to Plowshares or Lightning Bolt and getting even less hated since youre running a Mono Red Burn deck. So Goblin Guide is the first creature I would probably cut if something better comes up.

People forgot that Burn is not a Turn 2 combo deck which kills super consistently and can "afford" to play a bunch of disadvantage cards. Often the situation is that you rely on topdecking your spells, playing PoP at the right time and not running into a Daze. All of this slows Burn down a lot. Since you dont have cantrips to fill up your hands every single Burn spell counts and you can not afford to loose against 2 Daze in a row because you were to greedy to play around Daze. This is where Burn is actually a little bit more difficult to play. You really have to play Burn like a "combo deck", every single damage is important, you have to worry about Daze, Spell Pierce and never keep the same cards in hand to run into a Cabal Therapy. I also play Ur Delver and all of this matters also, still sometimes casting a Brainstorm makes little mistakes go away because you can go swing back for 6 with a flipped Delver and grown Swiftspear while Brainstorm found everything you need. In Burn you dont have this options so in a very specific way it is sometimes harder to play ^^

This is the list Im rocking currently in Burn:

4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
3 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
11 Mountain

No dead card in my list such as Searing Blaze main. Just straight in the face and a couple of midgame options with Lavamancer and Vortex. Before I cut Vortex I would cut Lavamancer. Vortex is one of the best cards ever printed for Burn. Its a running clock and kills cards such as Shaman, Ooze and Griselbrand you would loose against since they produce life. Vortex is one of the most important cards for Burn imho. Also running 2-3 Vortex Main gives you more slots in your board.

[scaryrawr]

One thing I've noticed about Lavaman is that people seem to think he's an inordinately high-value target. Most times he resolves, I don't even get the chance to activate him before he gets killed. Now that can be good or bad, depending on what we've got in our hand, what we're facing, and other things, but I tend to feel like snowballing "minor threat" cards can get us there more effectively than playing heavy-duty but vulnerable guys. Obviously this depends on the matchup and the rest of our build, but I feel like the dichotomy is real.

A related question: how often do you feel like you get the chance to activate Lavaman multiple times in a game?

Not trying to denigrate your plan; I'm genuinely interested in more info.

It depends on the matchup. Against Czech pile... maybe once. D&T a ton, Eldrazi a ton, Elves... until they hoof me. Miracles... maybe once to a ton. Delver variants 0-3 times. My favorite is against D&T when they have Rishadan Port and they look at lavamancer, look at your land, look at your yard, look at your lavamancer, and feel confused on whether or not to port you...

I've actually gone back down to 2 Grim Lavamancers main (was a really quick test). I found I definitely saw Lavamancer more (which I really wanted), but I didn't realize how much more (I think the 3rd would be better in the side, but I think I'm fine with just 2 now). My local meta seems to be getting very combo lately as of late, so I might be cutting Lavamancer soon to try going faster.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/506/223/2ab.gif

@IamHANDSOME, I've seen a lot of people say this about Goblin Guide being a bad card. It can help clear the top of your opponents deck, but most of the time it's just telling you what they're drawing, which intel is huge. It also can help you identify what deck your opponent is on, and help with deciding on how to sequence depending on what's card your opponent is drawing next.

There are some matchups where I value Swiftspear more, but I feel Goblin Guide is still the better of the two. Swiftspear has more explosive turns, but if you look at the damage lost from the non explosive ones, it's just playing catch up to Goblin Guide. If you're going Guide into Eidolon, it feels a lot better than Swiftspear into Eidolon. It can definitely be stronger late game (I think I once had it up as a 5/6, but that might have been in UR Delver which makes more sense... for 4 spells in a single turn...).

That said... I do tend to side out Guide before Swiftspear, but I think that's just out of habit. I've been siding them both out lately just to see how it goes lol.

[yankeedave]

Hey Y'all!

After 3 years away, I'm back and re-learning this deck.

Quick question: what do people think of By Force (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=426825)? It looks good against things like Eldrazi Stompy and Leovold decks which seem to be everywhere around me. I like the idea of taking out a Chalice and a Trinisphere out with one card. I'm thinking 2 Abrade (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=430772) and 2 By Force (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=426825) in the side to shore up those matches, as well as splash damage on Affinity, which can be a chore.

[Mr. Safety]

Hey Y'all!

After 3 years away, I'm back and re-learning this deck.

Quick question: what do people think of By Force (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=426825)? It looks good against things like Eldrazi Stompy and Leovold decks which seem to be everywhere around me. I like the idea of taking out a Chalice and a Trinisphere out with one card. I'm thinking 2 Abrade (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=430772) and 2 By Force (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=426825) in the side to shore up those matches, as well as splash damage on Affinity, which can be a chore.

You're going to have to really sell me on why either is better than Smash to Smithereens. By Force could be like Shattering Spree, but less efficient. Abrade is nice in how flexible it is, I would still use those in the side, maybe 2.

[scaryrawr]

Hey Y'all!

After 3 years away, I'm back and re-learning this deck.

Quick question: what do people think of By Force (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=426825)? It looks good against things like Eldrazi Stompy and Leovold decks which seem to be everywhere around me. I like the idea of taking out a Chalice and a Trinisphere out with one card. I'm thinking 2 Abrade (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=430772) and 2 By Force (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=426825) in the side to shore up those matches, as well as splash damage on Affinity, which can be a chore.

By Force isn't a good replacement for Shattering Spree in my opinion (if you even run Shattering Spree), the fact Spree has replicate, where By Force is just X targets, means one is easier to disrupt than the other. Also, against a deck like 4c Loam who sometimes has Gaddock Teeg, you won't be able to cast By Force without using removal on Teeg.

Also, Abrade is definitely a good card, but I don't think for us. I'm not sure how often we'd want it over Smash to Smithereens. Smash also does damage to face which is huge. Abrade being able to be creature removal as well makes it a very balanced and versatile card, but we already have cards that do better jobs at being creature removal Searing Blaze and Searing Blood, Smash is our Searing Artifact removal.

The reason we also want these cards is that we're not just doing a 1 for 1 trade, Searing and Smashes are all 2 for 1's. We're trying to maximize 3 damage to the face with every card we play. Abrade doesn't do that, By Force doesn't, neither does Spree, but Smash and Searing effects do. They take care of a card we care about and get our opponents life total down by 3. Every spell that doesn't do 3 damage to the face means we have to draw another card to make up for it, but we don't have card draw, so it's giving our opponent more time to stabilize. I'm not saying everything should always be pointed at the face, just when you make card selections remember the only way we win is by knocking our opponent down to 0.

[veriest1]

Thoughts on the singleton Exquisite Firecraft I've been seeing some decks running main board? I tried it and it seems fine online. Almost good even with all the different blue decks that run around.

[scaryrawr]

Thoughts on the singleton Exquisite Firecraft I've been seeing some decks running main board? I tried it and it seems fine online. Almost good even with all the different blue decks that run around.

I play 3 in the sideboard.

I think in the main 1 or 2 is fine as well (in the past they've taken the slot of Sulfuric Vortex).

My caution is that in some matchups the card is a little too slow (which why I think 1 or 2 main and not 3 or 4).

[veriest1]

I play 3 in the sideboard.

I think in the main 1 or 2 is fine as well (in the past they've taken the slot of Sulfuric Vortex).

My caution is that in some matchups the card is a little too slow (which why I think 1 or 2 main and not 3 or 4).


That's exactly where I've had it. I've had little use for the main deck Vortex but the single Firecraft has been pretty good and no slower than Vortex. It's been a much better top deck the couple of times it came up.

[Lyle Hopkins]

What does everyone think of this list? Deflecting Palm out of the board with a single Plateau in the main. Spicy.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/991179#paper

[Lord Darkview]

I find D.Palm hilarious in Modern. Probably a bit less reliable in Legacy, and highly dependent on the amount of Emrakul, Griselbrand, and Marit Lage expected. I'd prefer two Plateau though, just in case they use Wasteland to counter the plan.

[scaryrawr]

What does everyone think of this list? Deflecting Palm out of the board with a single Plateau in the main. Spicy.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/991179#paper

I think it's interesting. I've thought about running something closer to modern Burn in legacy, but just haven't gotten to it (I'm lazy... and Plateaus don't come in foil...).

I feel the meta recently has been calling for more spice, and it definitely helps for unfavorable matchups.

[jimytuning]

I present my current list, what do you think?


4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Monastery Swiftspear
2 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Searing Blaze
4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast
8 Mountain
4 Arid Mesa
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike


// 15 Sideboard
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Smash to Smithereens
3 Searing Blaze
1 Sudden Shock
4 Exquisite Firecraft