[DGM] New Set spoiler discussion!

[bruizar]

You act as if a 7/7 can't win games in legacy. Vintage decks used to run Darksteel Colossus, and that was with a much more powerful card pool than legacy has today. DSC is a creature that can be removed just as easily and is a 2 turn clock. Even a Tarmogoyf is often enough to kill your opponent in eternal formats. Even if you do happen to find your removing or bounce spell, and let's assume here that it isn't countered, what makes you think that Sneak/Show won't just misdirect it to your notion thief and grab some cards or red elemental blast it? Maybe you can cheat some cards against UW or BUG, but Sneak n Show is gonna stomp you if Notion Thief is the SNT plan.

[Crysthorn]

Apart from Core sets and Scars I can think of 2-4 cards that have impacted Legacy for all the sets since Zendikar. I am sure previous sets will have similar (Knight and Progenitus for Alara) but I have not the time to look back at those set.

Zendikar
Five Enemy Fetchlands - Eternal staples
Iona, Shield of Emeria - Key Reanimator Target
Goblin Guide - Eternal staple in Burn and Red Tempo decks
Bloodghast - Fringe Playable (Pox, Zombardment)
You forgot Spell Pierce and Mindbreak Trap.


Worldwake
Jace the Mind Sculptor - THE 4 Drop for control and banned everywhere but Eternal formats
Stoneforge Mystic - Esper Blade
Abyssal Persecutor - Suicide Black got a boost with "the Gate"
Also Bojuka Bog (tutorable via KotR), Creeping Tar Pit (Lands, some versions of BUG) and Lodestone Golem (MUD).


Rise of the Eldrazi
Inquisition of Kozilek - Eternal staple Black Discard
Emrakul and other Eldrazi - Sneak Attack; Shallow Grave or just Ramp
Linvala, Keeper of Silence - Sideboard card
Vengevine - Got Survival Banned
Also Coralhelm Commander (Merfolk) and maybe Forked Bolt (fringe in some RUGs).


Scars of Mirrodin
Mox Opal - For Affinity/Tezzerate Decks
Wurmcoil Engine - Sees Fringe play
Also Nihil Spellbomb, Necrotic Ooze (Survival before banning), Memnite and Etched Champion (Affinity), Glimmerpost (12 Post) and Kuldotha Forgemaster (some MUDs).


Mirrodin Besieged
- Green Sun's Zenith - made Maverick a Tier 1 deck
- Thrun, the Last Troll - Anti-Control Creature; Fringe playable
- Sword of Feast and Famine - eternal staple
Also Blue Sun's Zenith (High Tide), Signal Pest (Affinity), Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas (Affinity, Caleb's UB Planeswalkers), Phyrexian Revoker (sideboard option in D&T or MUD), and Blightsteel Colossus (some MUDs).


New Phyrexia
- Mental Misstep - Warped for format so much it got Banned
- Surgical Extraction - eternal staple in so many sideboards
- Dismember - eternal staple;
Also Gitaxian Probe (various combo, mostly Storm), Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur (Reanimator before Griselbrand got printed) and Batterskull (UW and Esper Stoneblade).


Innistrad
- Delver of Secrets - This blue one drop
- Snapcaster Mage - eternal staple
- Liliana of the Veil - eternal staple
- Past in Flames - Bonus for Combo decks
- Geist of Saint Traft - Hexproof beast, Blouses deck
Also Laboratory Maniac (fringe in Doomsday, All Spells etc.).


Dark Ascension
- Lingering Souls - this card made Esper Stoneblade
- Thalia, Guardian of Thraben - non blue decks best card choice to fight combo
Also Thought Scour (some RUGs), Gravecrawler and Faithless Looting (Sam Black's Zombies), and Grafdigger's Cage (sideboard option).


Avancyn Restored
- Cavern of Souls - Eternal staple for creatures decks; Massive boost for Goblins
- Entreat the Angels - Eternal staple in control decks
- Griselbrand - some peoples still want this card banned...
- Terminus - Landstil decks upgrade to Miracles
Also Blood Artist (Sam Black's Zombies) and Craterhoof Behemoth (Elves).

I'm pretty sure I forgot something, but even if not, there's much more for Legacy in recent sets than meets the eye.

[Lemnear]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=141441&d=1366171415

Might see some play in combo or control? Honestly not sure. The card's effect is definitely good - +1 card, looks at the top four - but the three cost and sorcery speed seem like deal breakers to me.

High Tide ... 0.02$ ... and a Dollar 4 tip

[TsumiBand]

That would have killed the iconic appeal of chains of mephistopheles by completely outmoding it. People don't want to see their ancient cards outmoded and I think WotC is well aware of that.

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/ala/152.jpg

It happens?

Anyway, printing Blue hosers in Blue is a terrible idea, if even it is "totally a Dimir thing to do". The idea that Blue is the to-go for card manipulation has been the driving force behind the notion that Blue Does Too Many Things, because total shocker, the whole game is made of cards, so whoever has better and more cards has a better game, and stuff. Only Blue can mess with card drawing like this, so only Blue would get this kind of Blue hoser? Only another ginger can call a ginger ginger, I guess.

[HPB_Eggo]

High Tide ... 0.02$ ... and a Dollar 4 tip

That was my initial thought, but I'm not sure what to take out for it. No cards are in most lists that it is a clear-cut improvement on.

[Darkenslight]

High Tide ... 0.02$ ... and a Dollar 4 tip

Spiral Tide, not Solidarity.

[bruizar]

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/ala/152.jpg

It happens?

Anyway, printing Blue hosers in Blue is a terrible idea, if even it is "totally a Dimir thing to do". The idea that Blue is the to-go for card manipulation has been the driving force behind the notion that Blue Does Too Many Things, because total shocker, the whole game is made of cards, so whoever has better and more cards has a better game, and stuff. Only Blue can mess with card drawing like this, so only Blue would get this kind of Blue hoser? Only another ginger can call a ginger ginger, I guess.

I agree with you on all points. Now if only I worked @ R&D :-).

[Zombie]

Funny thing about Notion Thief, btw. It obviously hoses Griselbrand, yes? Turns out, they play Omniscience instead. Ok. Do they have Emrakul? No. Fine, Burning Wish for Petals of Insight... what is this? Draw three cards, you say? >:)

[PirateKing]

It happens?

Look at any of the creatures on the Reserved List, a thing created specifically so those cards wouldn't have their value destroyed through reprints. They are all laughably unplayable in any format today. Creatures just keep getting better. Value preserved indeed.

[guybrush3]

tell me what u think about this : http://www.essentialmagic.com/decks/View.asp?ID=973387

ACTUALLY i was thinking at the great sinergy that GOBLIN WELDER + Sundering Titan + Legion's Initiative
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=141376&stc=1&d=1366043832

second turn of welder taps / titan comes in from cemetery in exchange of an artifact land or whatever / Legion activated / Titan and welder goes out / Titan adn welder goes in with haste (untapped?)/ Titan attacks / Second phase welder activate ability / Titan goes in the cemetery =

7 damage (if not blocked) + 4 times titan effect (shall i say that is a completly wrap up on all lands?) . Playing trokair give u the advance of course.

[nedleeds]

cause a totally stagnant metagame.

Players cause a stagnant metagame.

[Lemnear]

Funny thing about Notion Thief, btw. It obviously hoses Griselbrand, yes? Turns out, they play Omniscience instead. Ok. Do they have Emrakul? No. Fine, Burning Wish for Petals of Insight... what is this? Draw three cards, you say? >:)

Petal of Insight is outdated. Take the recent OmniTell lists as a referance


Spiral Tide, not Solidarity.

wasn't that obvious?

[nedleeds]

I never thought we would see the Chains of Mephistopheles condition in a new card's text box.

Good to see WoTC is reading my card ideas (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?14662-All-B-R-update-speculation&p=687394&viewfull=1#post687394) and making them blue ...


I think Obliterator, Percy and DesDemon are them pushing the black envelope. The designers want standard to be tribal fucking garbage, zombies and vampires. I think an outside the box black creature is more likely to show up in Planechase or Commander. Sewer Nemesis was an attempt but it sucks.

I would print ...

Priest of Mephistopheles - BB
Human Cleric

Flash
<Chains text>

1/2

Thanks for brainstorming. Resolves.

[Megadeus]

Good to see WoTC is reading my card ideas (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?14662-All-B-R-update-speculation&p=687394&viewfull=1#post687394) and making them blue ...

I thought the exact same thing when I saw this card lol. I was like I feel like I know someone who has basically created this card before on the YMTC thread... I really wish it were one mana less though. 4 Mana is alot. I still think it will be playable in something. I wanna live the magical christmasland dream and cast a V Clique after having one of these dudes on the field... "After draw step, tuck your best card, Ill draw a card?" The lulz will be had.

[phazonmutant]

Funny thing about Notion Thief, btw. It obviously hoses Griselbrand, yes? Turns out, they play Omniscience instead. Ok. Do they have Emrakul? No. Fine, Burning Wish for Petals of Insight... what is this? Draw three cards, you say? >:)

Enter the Infinite would be pretty funny with Notion Thief. If they have fewer cards than you, they deck. If they don't they draw the majority of their deck, don't get the benefit from Enter of not having to discard at their next cleanup, and will deck over the course of the next few turns as long as you can hold on. Most control decks can't craft a perfect 7 that will kill that quickly.

[Darkenslight]

wasn't that obvious?

Naturally. However, never underestimate the power of Misunderstanding.

Also, two claimed spoilers:

Warleader's Helix :2::r::w:
Instant (U)
Lightning Helix for 4 instead of 3.

Emmara Tandris :5::g::w:
Legendary Creature - Elf Shaman (R)
Prevent all damage that would be dealt to creature tokens you control.
5/7

[Megadeus]

The GW chick in reanimator. Reanimate her, then reanimate Deranged hermit. Indestructible 2/2 Squirrels! SO MUCH VALUE

[Arsenal]

Warleader's Helix :2::r::w:
Instant (U)
Lightning Helix for 4 instead of 3.

Looks completely unplayable for Legacy. Standard may like it though.

[Barook]

They really dropped the ball (or balls, if you are the lead designer of DGM) on this set. What the hell is wrong with those casting costs and P/T?

Warleader's Helix :2::r::w:

Instant

Warleader's Helix deals 4 damage to target creature or player and you gain 4 life.

Emmara Tandris :5::g::w:

Legendary Creature - Elf Shaman

Prevent all damage that would be dealt to creature tokens you control

5/7

C'mon, some random Elf Shaman who can kill angels and dragons in combat just like this? Where's the flavor?

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

Well, so much for this set looking promising. Poorly designed or boring cards just keep rolling in. Lightning Helix...BUT BIGGER! How interesting. Or look at the Dimir champion. He's a big, flying, U/B vampire that mills people a lot when he hits them. Where have I seen that before (http://magiccards.info/cmd/en/228.html)? And now look at the G/W champion, who is a design mess. She's a token lord who comes out long after most tokens have been made. And even in a token-centric EDH deck with her the helm, she'll often show up too late to bolster your tokens and does little against the mass removal that token decks fear.

But hey, Blue got another possible source of card advantage in stack-combo decks and a devastating, if overcosted, hoser against other Blue decks. I guess that's enough to dub the set Amazing!

[ahg113]

They really dropped the ball (or balls, if you are the lead designer of DGM) on this set. What the hell is wrong with those casting costs and P/T?

Warleader's Helix :2::r::w:

Instant

Warleader's Helix deals 4 damage to target creature or player and you gain 4 life.

Emmara Tandris :5::g::w:

Legendary Creature - Elf Shaman

Prevent all damage that would be dealt to creature tokens you control

5/7

C'mon, some random Elf Shaman who can kill angels and dragons in combat just like this? Where's the flavor?

The critter should've been a Treefolk for flavor. The Helix should be for at least 5, prolly six. These cards are lame on an eternal level, the critter good for edh.

@Megadeus- Super lulz! My dog looked at me funny for the sudden outburst.

[Arsenal]

Return to Ravnica gaves us some really powerful cards... I'll accept that Gatecrash gave us almost nothing and Dragon's Maze looks to give us even less.

[Barook]

Return to Ravnica gaves us some really powerful cards... I'll accept that Gatecrash gave us almost nothing and Dragon's Maze looks to give us even less.
Return to Ravnica = Ken Nagle
Gatecrash = Maro
Dragon's Maze = Maro's subordinate/Maro

Ken Nagle delivers, although he also tends to churn out borderline-broken stuff.

Maro's idea of fun sucks in terms of Legacy playability. But even then, it doesn't excuse terrible designs like Emmara or Goblin Test Pilot.

[TsumiBand]

Those are some random-ass cards. Would a proper Helix reprint have really been worse than just doing a variant? THIS is a situation where I don't see the value of variations of a theme in the name of filling a set. There's nothing wrong or busted about Lightning Helix, it's uncommon removal and it's a playable card in a few formats. I mean I guess this ain't the worst thing going in Boros for removal, but it may as well have just been Helix! Or pin a :wr: on it instead of a :2:, or something. Boo.

[Megadeus]

Yeah this set is a resounding meh. Why is it always the first set? It seems like WOTC is afraid of too much power in small mana costs so they just print all this powerful shit at 5-7 CMC. Random swingy bombs rather than cards that actually take skill to play or decision trees. 5 mana? Thragtusk!!!

Edit: Not that I dont love slamming a Thragtusk in legacy... What does a RUG opponent do vs a Thragtusk? Die

[Barook]

Edit: Not that I dont love slamming a Thragtusk in legacy... What does a RUG opponent do vs a Thragtusk? Die
Actually, it's "Daze or Die".

[Megadeus]

Actually, it's "Daze or Die".

Good point. Hopefully Daze is dead by that time ;)

[Nihil Credo]

Return to Ravnica = Ken Nagle
Gatecrash = Maro
Dragon's Maze = Maro's subordinate/Maro

Ken Nagle delivers, although he also tends to churn out borderline-broken stuff.

Maro's idea of fun sucks in terms of Legacy playability. But even then, it doesn't excuse terrible designs like Emmara or Goblin Test Pilot.
That's odd. I could have sworn that, according to the hivemind, Ken Nagle was the retarded big green monster kitchen sink bad designer Standard-loving pedophile Scientologist furry Nazi.

[Lemnear]

That's odd. I could have sworn that, according to the hivemind, Ken Nagle was the retarded big green monster kitchen sink bad designer Standard-loving pedophile Scientologist furry Nazi.

Is this a list of insults now allowed on theSource to adress people in slight disagree? ;)

[DLifshitz]

That's odd. I could have sworn that, according to the hivemind, Ken Nagle was the retarded big green monster kitchen sink bad designer Standard-loving pedophile Scientologist furry Nazi.


Creatures are the most interactive, flavorful, and fun part of Magic. R&D has been pushing creatures and pulling back on spells for years now. Even though Mirri's ability encourages you to play creatures (with 2 or more toughness), it hoses enemy creatures in an incredibly unfun way—the opponent knows before even playing them that her creatures will just die. Meanwhile, Mirri's minions can shrink each other in small doses to "go Vebulid" on the opponent.

There's an infamous card in Magic that also promotes cheap utility creatures, repeatedly murders enemy creatures, and "goes Vebulid" otherwise while being difficult to solve: Umezawa's Jitte. In a fight amongst unfun cards, the legendary Jitte has few contenders. In fact, Magic developers refer to 'dominating, unfun, regrettable cards' collectively as "Jittes," and are trained to quash them on sight.

There is ZERO room in Magic for Jittes. None. The Vanguard format already has anti-creature avatars such as Flametongue Kavu, so Mirri is not filling any metagame hole. Congratulations, Mirri, you've earned an unprecedented -2 hand penalty.

Nah, he's not that bad...

[Barook]

That's odd. I could have sworn that, according to the hivemind, Ken Nagle was the retarded big green monster kitchen sink bad designer Standard-loving pedophile Scientologist furry Nazi.

http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Kenneth_Nagle

The sets where he was lead designer basically shaped what control is today by bringing us JMS, SFM and Batterskull.

DRS and AD also made the B/G combination viable.

He certainly makes more interesting cards than a useless goblin that randomly shots shit or an overcosted Elf with an ass bigger than two elephants.

[DrJones]

That's odd. I could have sworn that, according to the hivemind, Ken Nagle was the retarded big green monster kitchen sink bad designer Standard-loving pedophile Scientologist furry Nazi.Ken Nagle was the best from the bunch on the first Great Designer Search (that's not saying much, they were pretty terrible). Ken has traits that are good for a game designer, he is pretty passionate and creative. The problem with him is that he likes to design unplayable narrow chaff, statistically unreliable splashy effects, and giant monsters that win the game on the spot such as Emrakul or Griselbrand. So basically, he's the "Timmiest" person you can find, according to the psychography. He stands out from the rest of R&D, who are among the "spikiest" and most unimaginative people I've ever seen on the gaming industry, so he serves as a good contrast.

The lead designer of this set, on the other hand, should have never won a GDS, and WotC made a terrible mistake hiring that person. Alexis Janson only designs cards that already exist (because doesn't bother checking gatherer), cards that don't work, cards that have no purpose, and all the designs feel uninspired. Alexis is also the only contestant that refused to design a card on the GDS because it was an unglued card, totally failing to understand the point of applying for a designer job. This is the first design opportunity WotC has given Janson after seven years, and I'm afraid it's more because they feel obliged than because they believe it's the right person for the job.

[Moduloc]

I kind of feel like we here the same stuff every time a new sets are being spoiled. Nothing good for eternal and this one random goblin sucks. I for one enjoy searching out the stuff that is not always so obvious. I mean we have missed a lot of role players as well as format staples in the past. Let's get past the, "they didn't print another walker like Jace or a creature like goyf rant." It wears so thin sometimes. All that aside, What do you guys think about Blood scribe in a pox type list. Whenever I played that deck I was always frustrated with the bad draws and waiting for a card to do something. It always seemed like I was in top deck mode.

[Aggro_zombies]

or an overcosted Elf with an ass bigger than two elephants.
More cushion for the pushin', baby!

[Barook]

The lead designer of this set, on the other hand, should have never won a GDS, and WotC made a terrible mistake hiring that person. Alexis Janson only designs cards that already exist (because doesn't bother checking gatherer), cards that don't work, cards that have no purpose, and all the designs feel uninspired. Alexis is also the only contestant that refused to design a card on the GDS because it was an unglued card, totally failing to understand the point of applying for a designer job. This is the first design opportunity WotC has given Janson after seven years, and I'm afraid it's more because they feel obliged than because they believe it's the right person for the job.
This

I never understood why Alexis won over Nagle in the first place. Alexis' designs were crap.

I'm still thinking that decision was somewhat politically motivated because Alexis is transsexual.

And it's not like the fresh blood from the Great Designer Search 2 contributed anything stellar so far, considering their track record of Gatecrash and Dragon's Maze.

@Moduloc
It's interesting to see what cards might emerge.

So far, Blood Scrivener is a good candidate, either as Bob backup (since it's a removal magnet) and/or for shenanigans with Top.

Notion Thief might see some play in control mirrors due to his gamebreaking ability. Why is it only discussed for Esper mirrors? This could go into BUG control as well, especially with DRS accel. Who knows, only time can tell.

Legion's Initiative is cheap enough to enable some fancy tricks, although I doubt it's good enough for Legacy.

The rest of the spoiled cards so far are probably too narrow due to being too specific or overcosted and might see some fringe play in certain decks.

[DrJones]

Here are the cards that so far attract my attention, either because they are aggresively costed when the rest of the set is grossly overcosted, or have an interesting effect that might find a place in a deck one of these years:

- Renounce the Guilds
- Blood Scrivener
- Possibility Storm
- Advent of the Wurm (5/5 flash trample for 4?)
- Legion's Initiative
- Ral Zarek
- Varolz, the Scar-Striped
- Voice of Resurgence (seems too cheap for what it does)
- Armed//Dangerous
- Notion Thief (3/1 flash that hoses brainstorm, and fun with sign in blood)

The top 3 at first sight would be Ral Zarek, Blood Scrivener, and Varolz.

[Koby]

I fail to see how someone's sexual identity has anything to do with designing cards. Alexis' designs are just worse even if she was a walking sea sponge.

The set hasn't been completely spoiled, so there might still be a few gems for Eternal. As of now, the guild champion designs seem cookie cut and really lazy. Almost as lazy as Omniscience, Blightsteel Colossus, Enter the Infinite, etc, but without actually being interesting for competitive play.

[Barook]

The top 3 at first sight would be Ral Zarek, Blood Scrivener, and Varolz.
Ral Zarek competes with JMS, though. Still might find a place, e.g. Statis, as already discussed.

While thinking about it, Varolz, the Scar-Striped might have potential in some kind of B/G good stuff deck:

- GSZ provides accel (Arbor) and helps getting Varolz into play or search for additional Goyf copies or maybe an utility critter
- discard against control/combo
- Abrupt Decay/Maelstrom Pulse for permanent control
- Liliana, because
- DRS for accel, reach and life total control
- Goyf, who can also serve as additional, cheap scavenge fodder
- Death's Shadow for shenanigans with Varolz and Plan B if your graveyard gets hosed
- Bob and maybe Blood Scrivener for life loss (Death's Shadow) and massive card advantage

Just as a vague idea. Although this sounds like fun with a god hand:
T1 DRS
T2 Varolz
T3 2x Death's Shadow, double scavenge, swing for 28

Not feasible, but fun.

[Moduloc]

I was thinking the blood scribe also has a pretty nice synergy with manabond. When I was looking to see if anyone else was looking at a loam pox type list with this guy, I noticed that manabond was high booking on tcg at 8 and some ebay prices are at around 8 as well. Has anyone heard any chatter of why this might be?

[Jander78]

Just as a vague idea. Although this sounds like fun with a god hand:
T1 DRS
T2 Varolz
T3 2x Death's Shadow, double scavenge, swing for 28

Not feasible, but fun.
What about:
Turn 1: Any accel -> Buried Alive
Turn 2: Reanimate, scavenge, scavenge
Turn 3: Protect + Swing for the win

Seems pretty feasible to me.

[Amon Amarth]

The set seems fairly GTC-ish so far. My wallet is happy for me not having to pick up sets of card before they explode in price, just a few good EDH cards and I can spend the rest on my growing addiction love of NM Beta cards.

[Lord Seth]

Return to Ravnica = Ken Nagle
Gatecrash = Maro
Dragon's Maze = Maro's subordinate/Maro

Ken Nagle delivers, although he also tends to churn out borderline-broken stuff.Thing is, those are the designers, not developers. In regards to power level, they're not completely irrelevant, but their influence on the power level is still extremely low. Any issues you have with the power levels of those sets (overpowered or underpowered) really aren't their fault.

What you should be looking at are lead developers, which are:
Return to Ravnica = Erik Lauer
Gatecrash = Dave Humpherys
Dragon's Maze = Zac Hill

[jjjoness']

God, the new Lightning Helix is awful.

[Aggro_zombies]

According to this (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=504449) thread, we now have a "Fuck you, Delver" card in the form of 'Skylasher':

1G
Creature - Spider
Flash, Protection from Blue, Reach
~ can't be countered.
2/2

Solves Geist and Delver nicely, I guess, but still one of those incredibly ham-fisted, "Hey guys, we fucked up but won't print hosers until the next block" cards.

[Megadeus]

"Lets make cards just like old favorites, but make them cost more mana!"

Im waiting for remand that costs 5 and draws 2 cards.

[Megadeus]

According to this (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=504449) thread, we now have a "Fuck you, Delver" card in the form of 'Skylasher':

1G
Creature - Spider
Flash, Protection from Blue, Reach
~ can't be countered.
2/2

Solves Geist and Delver nicely, I guess, but still one of those incredibly ham-fisted, "Hey guys, we fucked up but won't print hosers until the next block" cards.
I just had an argument on salvation the other day about the other person saying that WOTC just happens to make these horribly narrow hate cards in anticipation of the meta... Im sure that WOTC knew two years in advance how much people were going to hate Faeries so they designed Great Sable Stag... Or How much people were going to hate Vapor Snag so they designed Thragtusk just for shits n gigs. Right.

[evanmartyr]

So far...

Ral Zarek is a 4mana planeswalker at reasonable power level with both an interesting ability and a solid removal spell tacked on. He will see play.

Renounce is a cheap, Instant, easily-splashable hoser. Even if it doesn't see play immediately, it probably will at some point.

Wake the Reflections could be abusable at some point, I just have no idea when that would be. The cheapest way to do a potential absurd thing is always a card you can pick up a playset of and bank on for later.

If there is a way to abuse Blood Scrivener to a silly level, it'll take a lot of brewing...but there are ways. We have too many ways to draw multiple cards for cheap (Tolarian Winds, Breakthrough, Brainstorm, etc), and too many ways to gain value from discarding/exiling cards from hand for it not to (Cadaverous Bloom springs to mind).

Possibility Storm...I don't see happening. You risk whiffing a ton if you pack a deck full of spell type A, and you rely too much on tutors if you pack the deck full of spell type B. Seems far too random.

Deputy of Acquittals is a great roleplayer. Not sure if there's a place for him in Legacy though.

Exava is sheer value, but probably too expensive for Legacy. Really good creature, though, for slower formats.

Notion Thief I hesitate to recommend, but I was hesitant about Vendilion Clique too, and I was dead fucking wrong about that. Flash makes a big difference...but so does 4cc vs. 3cc.

Varolz seems ridiculous until you realize he's a 3 mana creature that dies to every damn thing ever (in this format, at least). Blech.

Voice of Resurgence I fucking hated, but it's just like Deputy or Exava; total value. It dies, 99% of the time you're going to get an equal sized or bigger creature. It lives, and countermagic becomes a losing proposition. I don't see how this won't filter into Maverick or other hatebears decks. Worth noting that you get the elemental token even if you sacrifice it, so there's potentially some combo application there.

Beck is interesting but probably not phenomenal, and all the other sorcery Fuse cards are fucking terrible.

The instant Fuse cards seem pretty solid, especially Wear and Tear (cheap and potentially a blowout, killing an equipment and...whatever enchantments people run these days).

Cluestones cost 3, not 2, and thus are bad.

Overall, I hate this set. I like a few of the subthemes (new split cards with an added interesting feature in Fuse, "guild champion" cycle had potential, a few interesting stand-out rares), but so far SO MUCH of the set is garbage chafe. Why have a cycle of common pump creatures that don't pump each other? Why have some of the Gatekeepers be so splashy for limited but rely so heavily on subpar lands that don't get played in constructed that they nearly guarantee they themselves won't get played in constructed?

[Megadeus]

They make the sets so hard to be fun to draft nowadays. I mean I like the fact that the sets are built well for draft because a lot of the draft formats have been quite fun actually. This just means however that all of the good shit is basically going to be mythic rarity and therefore expensive as balls (other than Decay, DRS and Snappy anyway)

[Aggro_zombies]

I just had an argument on salvation the other day about the other person saying that WOTC just happens to make these horribly narrow hate cards in anticipation of the meta... Im sure that WOTC knew two years in advance how much people were going to hate Faeries so they designed Great Sable Stag... Or How much people were going to hate Vapor Snag so they designed Thragtusk just for shits n gigs. Right.
WotC makes some horribly narrow hate cards in anticipation of the meta. See: Grafdigger's Cage. It's just that sometimes the screw up and don't realize it until the cards are out in the real world and then the soonest they can rush a solution into the format is sometime in the middle or end of the next block - Great Sable Stag or Imi Statue were cards like this. Anyway, this spider smells like one of those kinds of cards.

[Megadeus]

WotC makes some horribly narrow hate cards in anticipation of the meta. See: Grafdigger's Cage. It's just that sometimes the screw up and don't realize it until the cards are out in the real world and then the soonest they can rush a solution into the format is sometime in the middle or end of the next block - Great Sable Stag or Imi Statue were cards like this. Anyway, this spider smells like one of those kinds of cards.

I mean sure sometimes they make some hate cards that just suck, but other times like with Tusk, Great Sable Stag, Maybe even Volcanic Fallout, they seem to just make it so blatantly obvious that they had to print SOMETHING fast or else people would leave the game. Im not saying it is a horrible thing, I am just saying that Im sure it happens. Volcanic Fallout is a sweet card. Thragtusk is just herp derp shit design though. Like they just wanted to see how much value they could possily pack into a single card.

[Lord Seth]

According to this (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=504449) thread, we now have a "Fuck you, Delver" card in the form of 'Skylasher':

1G
Creature - Spider
Flash, Protection from Blue, Reach
~ can't be countered.
2/2

Solves Geist and Delver nicely, I guess, but still one of those incredibly ham-fisted, "Hey guys, we fucked up but won't print hosers until the next block" cards.What's funny is that Delver of Secrets is barely even a thing anymore in Standard already.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

1G used to buy you a 2/2. Eventually you got a 2/2 with an ability. Then you got a 2/1 Shroud, Pro-Blue dude. Now you get a 2/2, Flash, Pro-Blue, Reach, Can't be Countered dude. That's what I call power creep. Wizards is really tanking it.

[bruizar]

terribly designed set is terrible yeah. 5/7 elves :/

[Lemnear]

terribly designed set is terrible yeah. 5/7 elves :/

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=141474&d=1366257735

http://8e8460c4912582c4e519-11fcbfd88ed5b90cfb46edba899033c9.r65.cf1.rackcdn.com/sales/cardscans/MAGRAV/loxodon_hierarch.jpg

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=290543&type=card

A girly elf is 5/7 and elephants are 4/4... yeah ... top design

[FieryBalrog]

Thing is, those are the designers, not developers. In regards to power level, they're not completely irrelevant, but their influence on the power level is still extremely low. Any issues you have with the power levels of those sets (overpowered or underpowered) really aren't their fault.

What you should be looking at are lead developers, which are:
Return to Ravnica = Erik Lauer
Gatecrash = Dave Humpherys
Dragon's Maze = Zac Hill
It's actually not an easy separation like that. Certain designs are inherently hard to balance or lead to awkward deck construction (hello, Phyrexian mana!). Certain designs are just bad. Believe it or not, there is such a thing as bad design, and a card like Emmara smacks you in the face with it. It's not just sucking, it's sucking in every format in a completely nonsensical waywith an ability that is almost entirely irrelevant. (5/7 elf healer? a shaman? doesn't heal with an activated ability like most healers in Magic? has a hyper-narrow and reactive static ability?) Comparing Emmara to Vigor is hilarious.

If development is just randomly axing cards or producing last minute Jitte's, yes, they are to blame. But not always, that's just an easy excuse. In fact, Design and Dev aren't even separated nowadays at wizards, they're just called phase 1 team and phase 2 team or something like that, because they realized that they're really just inter-related aspects of a broad task.

[kiblast]

I thought we already had a decent Delver hoser in the form of Scryb Ranger , but the new one brings the ''fuck you Delver'' thing to a whole next level. Easily playable in Maverick as a 1-2of.

[Philipp2293]

I really don't see this as a 2 off in Maverick. Scryb Ranger, aside from hosing Delver, offers far more value than this guy. The problem is, that this guy still dies to bolt too.

But I guess if you play Delver, Geist, and to a lesser Extent Clique and Snappy the whole day he should earn a slot in the SB.

[HPB_Eggo]

Ready//Willing is almost good enough to see play. It's so obviously strong that it nearly makes me cringe to say that, but I think fusing it is more or less out of the question.

Maybe Nic Fit would like it as a one-of? Not really sure on that one.

P.S. ~ No good picture of the card as of the moment. It has Fuse, is an instant, and has 1GW for 'Creatures you control are indestructible this turn' and 1BW for 'Creatures you control gain Deathtouch and Lifelink until end of turn'.

[Gheizen64]

Ready//Willing is almost good enough to see play. It's so obviously strong that it nearly makes me cringe to say that, but I think fusing it is more or less out of the question.

Maybe Nic Fit would like it as a one-of? Not really sure on that one.

P.S. ~ No good picture of the card as of the moment. It has Fuse, is an instant, and has 1GW for 'Creatures you control are indestructible this turn' and 1BW for 'Creatures you control gain Deathtouch and Lifelink until end of turn'.

What is exactly good about this? 3 mana for a combat trick, really? Giant growth will do more most of the time while costing 1.

[Lemnear]

What is exactly good about this? 3 mana for a combat trick, really? Giant growth will do more most of the time while costing 1.

Chill. Peeps going desperate to find cards worth the Money they "invested" into a booster/draft ... ;D

[Tylert]

It's still fun to play in a booster draft. It's worth the money.
When you do a normal tournament and aren't in the money in the end, do you cry loud because you wasted your money?

[HPB_Eggo]

What is exactly good about this? 3 mana for a combat trick, really? Giant growth will do more most of the time while costing 1.

Like I said, it's almost good enough to see play.

The effect itself is incredibly strong in a game where you've stalled out on the board. Maverick versus Nic Fit was a good example of this in many games - both are sitting around waiting to gain any advantage so they can swing in. Play this and you win on swinging in, even if they decide not to block in fear of some combat trick.

If it cost two for each side rather than three and/or this was a more common situation in Legacy, I'd be all for sticking it in the SB of certain decks.

[Gheizen64]

Like I said, it's almost good enough to see play.

The effect itself is incredibly strong in a game where you've stalled out on the board. Maverick versus Nic Fit was a good example of this in many games - both are sitting around waiting to gain any advantage so they can swing in. Play this and you win on swinging in, even if they decide not to block in fear of some combat trick.

If it cost two for each side rather than three and/or this was a more common situation in Legacy, I'd be all for sticking it in the SB of certain decks.

Boros Charm

You're welcome.

[HPB_Eggo]

Boros Charm

You're welcome.

Ready//Willing provides value when you swing into a clogged up board regardless of what happens. If they block, you can pay for the indestructibility, the deathtouch, or both. If they don't block, you pay for the lifelink and can survive an extra turn.

Boros Charm can provide that, but doesn't always do so - the lifelink and deathtouch are both very relevant in that sort of situation.

I'll say it again, if this costed two for both sides and clogged boards were more common in Legacy, this card would be amazing. As it stands, it's only barely playable, if that. There's not really any reason to dispute that, as it's more or less obviously true.

[bruizar]

Note that Plasm Capture ramps into any color of mana. This means you can cast your Reaper Kings, Coalition Victories and Bringer of the Blue Dawns.

[Nihil Credo]

A girly elf is 5/7 and elephants are 4/4... yeah ... top designI've seen a really good explanation for those dumb numbers on Reddit:

http://i.imgur.com/XP4zgsc.png

http://i.imgur.com/LpodSKA.png

[nedleeds]

According to this (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=504449) thread, we now have a "Fuck you, Delver" card in the form of 'Skylasher':

1G
Creature - Spider
Flash, Protection from Blue, Reach
~ can't be countered.
2/2

Solves Geist and Delver nicely, I guess, but still one of those incredibly ham-fisted, "Hey guys, we fucked up but won't print hosers until the next block" cards.

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/in/183.jpghttp://magiccards.info/scans/en/isd/169.jpghttp://magiccards.info/scans/en/ts/215.jpg

[Barook]

@Nihil: Those mock-ups make a scary amount of sense.

Edit:

Profit//Loss :2::w://:2::b:
Instant//Instant Uncommon
Creatures you control get +1/+1 until end of turn.
//
Creatures your opponents control get -1/-1 until end of turn.
Fuse

Now compare that with Zealous Persecution - to get the same effect with fuse, you have to pay thrice the mana - what the fuck?

[ahg113]

So anyone else see the fail in the design of the card. Making the spider a rare, to combat Delver, which is a common? Just for the sake of it, this card should've been uncommon at the least, truly it should've been a common. As a "fix" this is poorly executed, says repeating internet user.

In non-bitchy commentary- I like the idea of Reap Intellect. Overcosted, narrow application, but the kind of card I like. Still waiting for Memoricide to be awesome, or something... Profit//Loss seems like a very bad Zealous Persecution. Why not just do a reprint? If only blue and red were great at generating tokens... cause if you're gonna cast EtW, Dragonshift is just win-more. I do like it, however bad it may be, it'd be killer in draft.

[TsumiBand]

So anyone else see the fail in the design of the card. Making the spider a rare, to combat Delver, which is a common? Just for the sake of it, this card should've been uncommon at the least, truly it should've been a common. As a "fix" this is poorly executed, says repeating internet user.

If it's real, it's a 2/2 for 1G with four abilities. Limited would shit a Stable Stag if this were common. It is an uber silver bullet-y hatebear that would just make Blue terrible in Limited at common.

Maybe rare is pushing it, but in Constructed it's a crap rare with a narrow purpose so I doubt it will be hard to come by. And it's in-line with all the cards Nedleeds posted; save the untap ability on Scryb Ranger, this is virtually all of those cards rolled into one.

Speaking of Limited, holy crap split cards?! There are a couple of high-costed crap ones, but the vast majority of them seem to be major league pulls, and they're largely uncommon to boot.

[Hardcore]

If Delver was too good, then Wizards is looking for a way to reduce the impact of the card, not make it unplayable.
Therefore it makes sense to make spider dude a rare. This will limit the appeal of delver in the RUG decks, or force a change in play style (keeping one red mana untapped for the bolt) which reduce the tempo of the deck employing delver.
If it was like a common it could be seen in too many decks.

[clavio]

I've seen a really good explanation for those dumb numbers on Reddit:

http://i.imgur.com/XP4zgsc.png

http://i.imgur.com/LpodSKA.png

Honestly, I don't really understand what this means.

[TsumiBand]

Honestly, I don't really understand what this means.


ghallberg asked: I would just like to say that I'm very happy that you are taking the time to look up Emmara's story and to write it down for us. This is the stuff that makes me like you! :) (And you make Magic awesome.)

So here’s what happened. Originally, some of the maze runners (aka guild champions) were rare and some were mythic rare. They couldn’t all be mythic rare because we only had nine mythic rare slots. Ral Zarek, a planeswalker, had already taken up the tenth slot. (Planeswalkers for complexity and specialness reasons need to be mythic rare.)

We talked about Ral just being the Izzet representative but decided that for numerous purposes (Commander being one of the biggest) we wanted a blue/red legendary creature and thus an Izzet maze runner.

It was decided well into development that the maze runners should all be the same rarity which meant they had to be rare as mythic rare wasn’t possible. This resulted in us making some changes to turn the mythic rare maze runners into rare maze runners.

One of those swaps was Voice of Resurgence with Emmara. As many have guessed, Emmara originally made the */* token (seen in the background of her art). It wasn’t a straight swap and there was lots of massaging of both cards. That is what happened.

So it isn't just that art got switched, they had to back up on the flavor of the cars as a whole for some odd reason. Emmara was supposed to be Voice, and Voice was supposed to be Emmara, but the art already had the Elemental indicating her role as the token-maker, but they had to change it because of things and stuff.

[wcm8]

I think that Spider guy is a pretty solid sideboard option. Obviously it's a kick in the nuts for any Delver deck and seems like pretty strong mirror tech. They can't Submerge it and if they do spend a Bolt on it, that's one less Bolt your Delvers need to worry about. It also hoses Merfolk pretty hard. I guess they run Dismember and can Island-walk through him, but otherwise this guy is going to be troublesome for the fishmen. Against Counterbalance decks, it's an uncounterable threat that deals with Snapcaster, Clique, Venser, can't be bounced by Jace, and simply just increases your threat density.

I could see myself potentially adding one or two to my RUG or Team America sideboards.

Aside from this card, I haven't seen much that's too exciting yet.

[Lemnear]

So it isn't just that art got switched, they had to back up on the flavor of the cars as a whole for some odd reason. Emmara was supposed to be Voice, and Voice was supposed to be Emmara, but the art already had the Elemental indicating her role as the token-maker, but they had to change it because of things and stuff.

If this is true, it's outright even more stupid than the infamous mechanic switch in Gatecrash. Aren't those sets developed 1-2 years in advance? The upfucks in the last 2 expansions leave the impression that they completely flip over the sets 2-3 months before release

[lyracian]

Blured Mongoose, Ambush Viper, Scrub Ranger
Except most of those can not even block Delver and none of them survive combat and kill Delver/Geist. you either get both creatures dead or Ranger stays alive and so does the opponents.

[HPB_Eggo]

There's also the not-insignificant benefit of Skylasher dodging the 2-for-1 with Forked Bolt or Fire//Ice. Very important against RUG and certainly something that might push it into play over Scryb Ranger in some cases, albeit most likely in the SB because of the lack of utility.

[testing32]

I'm still not sure if Skylasher will see legacy play but it's important to note that in addition to delver he also beats SFM, Snapcaster, V Clique, Geist, Soul Tokens and Jace. That seems like everything in esper except for batterskull, plow and jitte.

[Megadeus]

If Delver was too good, then Wizards is looking for a way to reduce the impact of the card, not make it unplayable.
Therefore it makes sense to make spider dude a rare. This will limit the appeal of delver in the RUG decks, or force a change in play style (keeping one red mana untapped for the bolt) which reduce the tempo of the deck employing delver.
If it was like a common it could be seen in too many decks.

This... Makes no sense... WHy would rarity affect how much it was played in Legacy? Why would it being a common change how much play it saw in Legacy?

[joven]

So it isn't just that art got switched, they had to back up on the flavor of the cars as a whole for some odd reason. Emmara was supposed to be Voice, and Voice was supposed to be Emmara, but the art already had the Elemental indicating her role as the token-maker, but they had to change it because of things and stuff.

So it was just bad planing and screw up on WotC's side and Emmara has to suffer by being a 5/7 elf abomination.

[Wilkin]

I could see that Lasher seeing play as sideboard tech for Geist and Delver. Profit/loss wow just wow....lol, just a worse version of Zealous Persecution. So I can pay 2 mana for the ability or I can pay 6.

Very crappy set so far. Worse than Gatecrash.

[Lord Seth]

So it was just bad planing and screw up on WotC's side and Emmara has to suffer by being a 5/7 elf abomination.It's especially frustrating because in her portrayals in Agents of Artifice and The Secretist, a 5/7 just does not make sense. Was it really that impossible to just lower the power/toughness and drop the casting cost accordingly? Heck, it'd even make the card legitimately playable.

I mean, to be fair, it's not like legends haven't had abilities that don't quite make sense with the story. Tsabo Tavoc has protection from legends but is killed by legends (Karn and Gerrard). Phage and Akroma are able to inflict damage on each other despite the fact that Akroma should be invulnerable to Phage (protection from black). How the heck Thalia's "make noncreature spells cost 1 more" has any bearing on what we know of her abilities and character in-universe is beyond me. But somehow, none of those seem quite as egregious as Emmara somehow being a 5/7.

[ahg113]

As much as i like ragging on blue just because, the morphling redo I do find enjoyable. If for no other reason than nostalgia, F' Morphling.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=141530&d=1366344195

And while not splashy for eternal formats, I think the Gorgon is actually good card design. There is a lot of interaction between scavenge, evolve and other +1/+1 enablers, that this is a form of board control, should be easy to achieve. It would be better if the -1/-1 were permanent, but I get it, that's being greedy.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=141532&d=1366344195

[evanmartyr]

It would be better if the -1/-1 were permanent, but I get it, that's being greedy.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=141532&d=1366344195

It's only greedy if you want the cards to be good. As it is you're paying 7 mana just to start killing the creatures your opponent was playing turn 1. Weehaw. And that's assuming that after the preceding (at least 4) turns, you haven't lost all your sources of +1/+1 counters.

If anything, I'm sure it would be much better but still totally reasonable if there wasn't a mana cost associated with it. It'd make a BUG evolve midrange deck possible...but not in Legacy. Bad Triskelion is bad :(

[Lemnear]

For all the veterans who also had played during Kamigawa:

Is the Return to Ravnica block even worse than Kamigawa at it's time (With todays powerlevel of cards available in mind) or is it just my Impression?

[bruizar]

For all the veterans who also had played during Kamigawa:

Is the Return to Ravnica block even worse than Kamigawa at it's time (With todays powerlevel of cards available in mind) or is it just my Impression?

The only thing worth it are split cards at this point in time. I have no idea what Ral Zarek is going to do. It could be a card, or not. The other cards from the set so far do not seem to be at the competitive legacy level.

[Darkenslight]

It's only greedy if you want the cards to be good. As it is you're paying 7 mana just to start killing the creatures your opponent was playing turn 1. Weehaw. And that's assuming that after the preceding (at least 4) turns, you haven't lost all your sources of +1/+1 counters.

If anything, I'm sure it would be much better but still totally reasonable if there wasn't a mana cost associated with it. It'd make a BUG evolve midrange deck possible...but not in Legacy. Bad Triskelion is bad :(

You are aware that it turns on Evolve for...well, everything, right?

And as for the Kamigawa question, I'm guessing that this won';t be as bad as Saviors, but it'll be closer to Betrayers (i.e. one hilariously borked card and a lot of, well, overcosted chaff).

[joven]

As much as i like ragging on blue just because, the morphling redo I do find enjoyable. If for no other reason than nostalgia, F' Morphling.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=141530&d=1366344195


Seems like lazy design to me. Just take an old card, change it a little bit and increase mana cost. Done.


Unflinching Courage is a fixed Armadillo Cloak: Old Lifelink-like trigger effect replaced with Lifelink.

[bruizar]

How they managed to fuck up set 2 and 3 this bad is beyond me considering the great start of the first set. It really looks like the set was designed by a bunch of noobs. When crap like boros reckoner become the money rares, I get flashbacks of fallen empires.

[JanoschEausH]

How they managed to fuck up set 2 and 3 this bad is beyond me considering the great start of the first set. It really looks like the set was designed by a bunch of noobs. When crap like boros reckoner become the money rares, I get flashbacks of fallen empires.

Totally aggree!!! I was feeling so giddy about RTR and were looking forward to the next 2 sets. Now look at that disappointment...

[PirateKing]

I was always under the impression that blocks were designed Lord of the Rings style, you make 3 movies all at once then release them over 3 years at Christmas time.
Like it was someone's job to oversee the whole block, and that you built it to completion before the first set was released.
Is this really not the case? And if so, why not?

[Tokugawa]

You are aware that it turns on Evolve for...well, everything, right?

And as for the Kamigawa question, I'm guessing that this won';t be as bad as Saviors, but it'll be closer to Betrayers (i.e. one hilariously borked card and a lot of, well, overcosted chaff).

Comparing with Betrayers,so... who is the "jitte" of DGM?

[Barook]

And if so, why not?
I blame Maro & Co.

You would expect that the block should be designed like this, considering the original had tons of cycles.

Stuff like the semi-finished uncounterable cycle leave a very bad taste in my mouth.

Where's the equivalent of the somewhat iconic Lightning Helix cycle?

The guild mechanics completely suck this time - why couldn't they go back and use the old ones? And don't get me started on the whole Dimir keyword debacle - fuck Maro and fuck his milling.

Everything is just blatantly overcosted and/or just plain boring.

I really don't know how they could fuck up their most popular setting this much. Did they just go for "Fuck it, it's Ravnica, it's going to sell no matter how shitty it is!" :confused: Because it feels like that.

Do we have any info how well RtR and GTC have sold so far?

[GradStudentGuy]

I don't know what happened with this set. They had the opportunity to make at least some of the guild champions playable. They had ten of them and few will see any play outside of EDH. Split cards are playable in standard at least, unfortunately Wizards Decided to add + 1 CMC to both sides on most cards killing their legacy applications. The two bears cards that scream I could see play in legacy are made completely in design at the last minute. These bears have no flavor or are well made. I could understand Gatecrash be an underwhelming set but having a third set at this power level is a disappointment. I hope this sets lead designer does not lead a set again.

Also Cipher which is the best keyword in the set was terribly executed. Everything had 1-2 higher CMC then what was needed for even standard. Their was so much design space however wizard put limited first since removal is not as common.

[clavio]

I wish rot farm skeleton was better than not at all.




Also Cipher which is the best keyword in the set was terribly executed. Everything had 1-2 higher CMC then what was needed for even standard.

I don't know, I really enjoyed playing Dimir in Gatecrash draft.

[Darkenslight]

Comparing with Betrayers,so... who is the "jitte" of DGM?

Probably Varolz is the closest. Although there are definitely a few cards to watch thus far and wait for Theros to break.

[Arsenal]

Why is flavor so important to competitive players? I mean, if all of the format staples retained their function, casting cost, and colors, but had ugly artwork, cheesier sounding names, and their creature types(s) didn't "make sense", would people honestly say "What? This 2UU Planeswalker that wins the game if I untap with him is named Beezlebub? Pshh, that's going in my trade binder."

[Barook]

Finally a less shitty Extort card - although I doubt it makes the cut for Legacy:

Tithe Drinker :w::b:
Creature - Vampire
Lifelink
Extort
2/1

However, what really catched my interest is this card:

Woodlot Crawler :u::b:
Creature - Insect
Forestwalk, pro Green
2/1

Seems like nice sideboard tech in the right deck. Blocks Goyfs, Mongooses and KotRs like a champ and is an interesting equipment carrier against them. It's also AD-proof.

[Erdvermampfa]

As many have pointed out before, this set is in views of design and power level on par with Gatecrash, if not worse. To be all honest, I slightly get the feeling that the end of game evolvement is in near future. Old mechanics get constantly applied on new cards but with new names and the developers seem to run out of ideas for new cards. Cards of egregious design ( that 5/7 elf is a great example for this ) are getting printed regularly and they appear to have lost all their sense for flavor and power level. What's also disturbing that they appearently are still reluctant at giving neglected colors ( Black, RED ) cards that can actually compete with stuff other colors get. And by this, I'm not refering to cards like that spider guy, which is in fact a rather narrow card card made to address a specific issue (delver). I'm speaking of powerful cards that predominating blue decks actually need to adapt to..

[rufus]

Hmm... another rumored plausible High Tide complement:


Hidden Strings
:1::u:
Sorcery
You may tap or untap target permanent, then you may tap or untap another target permanent
Cipher

[Aggro_zombies]

Hmm... another rumored plausible High Tide complement:
So...Cloud of Faeries, minus the interaction with Snap? Okay.

[rufus]

So...Cloud of Faeries, minus the interaction with Snap? Okay.

Honestly, it looks *way* too strong - I'm thinking fake.
Turn 1: Land, 1-drop
Turn 2: Island, Hidden Strings, (tap down blocker if necessary), cast a 1-2 cc spell with untapped land, swing with 1-drop for cipher effect, cast a 2 cc spell.

[Aggro_zombies]

Honestly, it looks *way* too strong - I'm thinking fake.
Turn 1: Land, 1-drop
Turn 2: Island, Hidden Strings, (tap down blocker if necessary), cast a 1-2 cc spell with untapped land, swing with 1-drop for cipher effect, cast a 2 cc spell.
It's worth remembering that the cipher trigger means this is basically only "untap two permanents" after the first turn. So, it gives two guys pseudo-vigilance or generates +2 mana if you cast something pre-combat. As far as draft is concerned, it's decent but not wtf broken.

EDIT: Also does not seem particularly playable in Standard, either. Could possibly be broken with High Tide, since it's a Cloud of Faeries you get back with Time Spiral, but I'm not so sure about it being good enough.

[joven]

Why is flavor so important to competitive players? I mean, if all of the format staples retained their function, casting cost, and colors, but had ugly artwork, cheesier sounding names, and their creature types(s) didn't "make sense", would people honestly say "What? This 2UU Planeswalker that wins the game if I untap with him is named Beezlebub? Pshh, that's going in my trade binder."

Well, I'd say that Magic the Gathering would never have become the popular game that it is today, if the flavor (artwork, names, story, ...) had been bad. There would probably be _no_ competitive Magic nowadays. So I think flavor is important. Would you play Magic if all cards would be some Spongebob or Pokemon stuff or even some random shit, that made no sense at all, instead of (mostly) beautiful fantasy tropes represented by (mostly) great artwork?

[Arsenal]

Well, I'd say that Magic the Gathering would never have become the popular game that it is today, if the flavor (artwork, names, story, ...) had been bad. There would probably be _no_ competitive Magic nowadays. So I think flavor is important. Would you play Magic if all cards would be some Spongebob or Pokemon stuff or even some random shit, that made no sense at all, instead of (mostly) beautiful fantasy tropes represented by (mostly) great artwork?

Would I still play Stoneforge Mystic if she wasn't a Kor Artificer and instead a Weird? Yes, yes I would. Function > Flavor when it comes to competitive Magic.

[Megadeus]

Competition wise I dont care if an elf is slaying a dragon much. But sometimes I do like to play with cool cards for flavor reasons. I built a Rafiq of the many EDH deck with all of the cards that made sense from the Alara Unbroken book. That was cool to play.

[Barook]

Honestly, it looks *way* too strong - I'm thinking fake.
Turn 1: Land, 1-drop
Turn 2: Island, Hidden Strings, (tap down blocker if necessary), cast a 1-2 cc spell with untapped land, swing with 1-drop for cipher effect, cast a 2 cc spell.

If said 1-drop is a Delver that flips, it sounds hilarious pretty hilarious if you can protect it.

[Esper3k]

Yeah I don't get all the complaining about the elf chick. WoTC admitted it was a last minute change that had to take place to make the Maze Runner cycle fit.

It's also not like we haven't seen big ass elves (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=43537) before.

Hell, being Selesnya, you can even make up some bs about how she's Voltron powered up by the masses of guild members, etc.

[TsumiBand]

Yeah I don't get all the complaining about the elf chick. WoTC admitted it was a last minute change that had to take place to make the Maze Runner cycle fit.

It's also not like we haven't seen big ass elves (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=43537) before.

Hell, being Selesnya, you can even make up some bs about how she's Voltron powered up by the masses of guild members, etc.

I think for some reason the art is belying the power/toughness. Though to be fair, those do kind of look like minified redwoods she's standing near/sitting on/whatever she's doing in the trees. Redwoods are pretty dang big, especially if given 500+ years to grow.

Also, I've never understood power and toughness to always be a direct correlation of something's "size", but its ability in combat. This is why it's probably fine that the average bear is a 2/2, and there are Elves and Humans and even Goblins that supersede it in power/toughness, despite its arguably being much bigger. They're educated in combat or more fierce or a combination of both. Iwamori of the Open Faced Sammich is a 5/5 Human with trample; why the hell does a human have trample, and how does it trample over a Loxodon Hierarch? Because he's a freaking bamf, that's why he's Legendary and Loxodon Hierarch is just another elephant that no one cares to get to know on a personal level.

[Esper3k]

I think for some reason the art is belying the power/toughness. Though to be fair, those do kind of look like minified redwoods she's standing near/sitting on/whatever she's doing in the trees. Redwoods are pretty dang big, especially if given 500+ years to grow.

Also, I've never understood power and toughness to always be a direct correlation of something's "size", but its ability in combat. This is why it's probably fine that the average bear is a 2/2, and there are Elves and Humans and even Goblins that supersede it in power/toughness, despite its arguably being much bigger. They're educated in combat or more fierce or a combination of both. Iwamori of the Open Faced Sammich is a 5/5 Human with trample; why the hell does a human have trample, and how does it trample over a Loxodon Hierarch? Because he's a freaking bamf, that's why he's Legendary and Loxodon Hierarch is just another elephant that no one cares to get to know on a personal level.

Exactly. The MTG multiverse is full of magic. P/T doesn't have to correlate with size (although it often does).

[Arsenal]

If they printed a card that read "1G, Human Insect, 4/4 Trample, Hexproof", people would still bitch and moan because of the flavor I bet...

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Yeah I don't get all the complaining about the elf chick. WoTC admitted it was a last minute change that had to take place to make the Maze Runner cycle fit.

It's also not like we haven't seen big ass elves (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=43537) before.

Hell, being Selesnya, you can even make up some bs about how she's Voltron powered up by the masses of guild members, etc.

I don't get the complaints about power/toughness. I mean that can also reflect magical and martial prowess and retinue/armies, not just mere size. I don't think anyone thinks that Commander Greven il-Vec was meant to be bigger in actual physical size than a Shivan Dragon, right?

Now, I get complaining that the ability is boring.

[rufus]

If they printed a card that read "1G, Human Insect, 4/4 Trample, Hexproof", people would still bitch and moan because of the flavor I bet...

If the art looked like Zephyr Falcon and it was called 'Amorous Pheldagriff' then people could not be faulted for calling it an error.

[Barook]

Yeah I don't get all the complaining about the elf chick. WoTC admitted it was a last minute change that had to take place to make the Maze Runner cycle fit.

It's also not like we haven't seen big ass elves (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=43537) before.

Hell, being Selesnya, you can even make up some bs about how she's Voltron powered up by the masses of guild members, etc.

Said Elf is a huge Mutant while this is a delicate Elf chick. Just because she's rare doesn't mean she needs to overcosted, oversized piece of junk.

[Esper3k]

Said Elf is a huge Mutant while this is a delicate Elf chick. Just because she's rare doesn't mean she needs to overcosted, oversized piece of junk.

So you're saying that in a world chock full of magic, delicate Elf chicks can't have high power/toughness?

[Megadeus]

Said Elf is a huge Mutant while this is a delicate Elf chick. Just because she's rare doesn't mean she needs to overcosted, oversized piece of junk.

This. Just like when WOTC said the Mythics werent going to be only for undercosted powerful cards...

[Star|Scream]

If they printed a card that read "1G, Human Insect, 4/4 Trample, Hexproof", people would still bitch and moan because of the flavor I bet...

Can it be countered?

[TsumiBand]

So you're saying that in a world chock full of magic, delicate Elf chicks can't have high power/toughness?

Right?

How is this even a discussion at this point, haha. The card isn't functionally altered by this art thing, it would do this regardless of who or what was on there. Vintage people have been putting up with this for years, it's called a 'proxy'.

What is the level of expectation here, you need Christmas Abbott on your 5/7s just to suspend your disbelief long enough to play this card? Wait, you're probably *not* going to play this card, because it is bad. It costs 7 to prevent damage to tokens.

I get that art is part of the game but it isn't *that* damn big a deal, is it? How do you guys deal when someone plays Humility, or the first run Voidmage Prodigy?

[Oiolosse]

Foglio's the shit. You seriously don't like that art?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I mean Galadriel was a small elf chick and one of the most powerful beings in Middle-Earth, I'm still not getting where this is coming from.

Like, Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief is clearly not as large as Frost Giant in terms of strict size.

Actually by this logic every vampire ever should've been complained about except maybe the dragon one.

[blaat]

Gaze of Granite xbbg
Sorcery Rare

Destroy each nonland permanent with converted mana cost X or less.
Golgari reclaimers resent the gorgons, begrudging the loss of so many fine nutrients locked away in stone.
Illus. Nils Hamm #72/166

Nice design, but for legacy, deed has more advantages.

[apple713]

A few notes...

This set will probably play great in limited.

There are a lot of great new effects that cards in this set are bringing to the game, however, its like they gave everything too high of a CMC instead of a competitive CMC. It's like they are trying to slow the format down. This would be fine if the block was started that way cause it would lead to a slower standard format but this is just a clunky set with a bunch of edh cards.

Blood Scrivner = all star
legions initiative = probably not good enough for maverick / mono white to start splashing red
Beck // Call = good for standard and possibly glimpse 5-8 ... will it really bring back combo elves... probably not. good in modern tho
Breaking // entering = speculation here but with glimpse the unthinkable this increases consistency of milling stategies and fuels threshold and snapcaster mage and reanimators. keep this on your radar
Plasm capture = totally see this going into a control heavy deck like landstill as a 2-3 of. At UUG it would see lots more play and still be fair.
Varloz, Exava, and Gaze of Granite = will find their way into modern and just miss the cut for legacy.
~Skylasher = should have hexproof instead of flash cause he'll just draw the bolt or swords and you might as well be playing sin collector or duress....
Ætherling = might have seen play in legacy had they made him cost 4 and weaken him instead of increasing his cost and beefing him up...
Deadbridge Chant = great concept. except since it takes so long to set up a way to stack your deck or abuse it, it loses all possibility of creating a new combo deck. i think it would have been a great card at 4 CMC and seen experimentation. Random doesnt win tournaments.... it just makes card unplayable in competitive play. Also for 6 mana, you might as well spend 1 more and play debtors knell.

this set makes me excited cause i know wizards is on the right track but dissapointed cause they just didnt deliver, not for legacy at least.

PS...Blast of genius makes it into my modern goryo's vengeance / through the breach deck!

[Darkenslight]

Drown in Filth :b::g:
Sorcery (C)
Choose target creature. Mill yourself for four, then that creature gets -1/-1 for each land card in your graveyard.

Gruul War Chant :2::r::g:
Enchantment (U)
Orcish Oriflamme plus Goblin War Drums.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Drown in Filth :b::g:
Sorcery (C)
Choose target creature. Mill yourself for four, then that creature gets -1/-1 for each land card in your graveyard.

It seems really likely that this is quite good in some deck in some format at some point.

[Barook]

Drown in Filth :b::g:
Sorcery (C)
Choose target creature. Mill yourself for four, then that creature gets -1/-1 for each land card in your graveyard.
I initially read it as "-1/-1 for each land card put into your graveyard this way".

Well, that's way better now, especially with Fetchlands. But I still can't see how it compares to a much more flexible Abrupt Decay most of the time, especially with sorcery speed.

[HPB_Eggo]

It seems really likely that this is quite good in some deck in some format at some point.

Some variation of LftL might be quite happy with it, even though that's not a particularly great deck in Legacy anymore.

Would still be fun to play it on a creature it won't kill, flip no lands, and then cycle 3-4 lands just to make sure it does. :laugh:

[Finn]

Gaze of Granite will be a staple for Standard. It may even be the centerpiece of some green/black control deck. But in Legacy, it is strictly inferior to Deed except that it can not be Needled.

Hmm. Worded like Engineered Explosives. Even weaker.

[Viridia]

Except that it can blow up Walkers ;)

[Arsenal]

Except that it can blow up Walkers ;)

Paying 6 (liliana) or 7 (jace) doesn't seem like a winning proposition to me.

[Viridia]

It's definately something Nic-Fit can achieve, considering Planeswalkers are one of the decks weakness', it might have a spot in there.

[bruizar]

it can be burning wished for in nic fit..

[GradStudentGuy]

Gaze of Granite pretty terrible. The problem is not that it clears the board for 6-7 mana, its the fact that because it costs so much that you cant play around daze or spell pierce.

[HPB_Eggo]

Gaze of Granite pretty terrible. The problem is not that it clears the board for 6-7 mana, its the fact that because it costs so much that you cant play around daze or spell pierce.

It's not terrible, but that is the one enormous problem with it in Legacy.

With Deed you can drop it safely without having to pay the X portion of the cost - or right after checking the opponent's hand with Therapy or some such - to avoid Spell Pierce/Daze. Because of the all-at-once nature of the casting cost, you're going to get absolutely wrecked by RUG and whatnot when they tax you after you put in a ton of mana.

To put it another way, you might be able to play it properly around countermagic against decks with low curves, but Pernicious Deed is just plain better against all those decks - obvious exception of RUG with stifle - because you don't have to worry about wiping walkers and Deed wipes everything else cheaper.

[workingdude]

http://www.wizards.com/magic/tcg/article.aspx?x=mtg/tcg/dragonsmaze/cig#

Full set is out. I don't see much.

[dameus]

Yeah, very disappointing :frown:

Too many over-costed cards.

[GradStudentGuy]

This set is worse than gatecrash in terms of legacy playable cards and that is saying something.

[Aggro_zombies]

Yeah, very disappointing :frown:

Too many over-costed cards.
Yeah, Gatecrash is pretty bad. Here's hoping Dragon's Maze is better...

OH WAIT

I guess this set is a fitting way to end this block: lazy, phoned in, and with an extra mana tacked on to everything.

Also, the rare blue cipher card is lulzy.

[GradStudentGuy]

Yeah, Gatecrash is pretty bad. Here's hoping Dragon's Maze is better...

OH WAIT

I guess this set is a fitting way to end this block: lazy, phoned in, and with an extra mana tacked on to everything.

Also, the rare blue cipher card is lulzy.

I dont get that card at all... I mean why is it a rare can it really mess up limited that bad as a common?

[Aggro_zombies]

I dont get that card at all... I mean why is it a rare can it really mess up limited that bad as a common?
Pretty much all of the cards with that effect are rare, so that's not the issue. It's that:

1) Dimir was generally shafted in this block, thanks to overcosted cipher cards and grind,

2) The card does very little in this block,

3) The card has very little to gain from being a cipher card operating at sorcery-speed.

It's just...cipher was unappealing enough as it was, why compound the problem by making a card like this? IIRC there was already a card with similar effect and buyback in Tempest and that thing is so forgettable I can't even remember its name.

[BlackFlameAshura]

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/dgm/tiwoirwiixix/4eiaad6r8k_EN.jpg

Skylasher 1:g:
Creature - Insect (Rare)
Flash
Can't be countered.
Protection from blue, reach.
2/2

Wow, DGM is kinda disappointing overall and I may have jumped the gun a little earlier with Voice of Resurgence but this guy seems legitimately solid. He's definitely gonna see some eternal play but the question becomes how does he stack up compared to Scryb Ranger? I'm not entirely sold on him just yet because Scryb Ranger offers actual flying and utility in handling Wastes and such but Skylasher's inability to be countered and that it actually kills flipped Delvers and Geists rather than merely blocking them can't really be overlooked, I think. I suppose it's the sort of thing where it might be more of a meta and play style call over anything.

EDIT: Guess I'm a bit late to the party on this one. Didn't even realize he'd already been leaked a few days ago.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

It's a two mana answer to a one mana card that does almost nothing else and dies to every actually played removal spell in the format except Force of Will which no one would use on him anyway.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I will probably play Gaze although it is terrible.

So uh, set verdict: Upgrade to Disenchant if you're splashing red? Whooooot.

[Honorik]

What did You think guys about Notion Thief ? Any Chance to see play as a sideboard card ?

[lyracian]

I will probably play Gaze although it is terrible.

So uh, set verdict: Upgrade to Disenchant if you're splashing red? Whooooot.
Yeah...
Best card of the set: Wear/Tear.
Worth trying out: Gaze, Skylasher, Nocturn Theif, Hidden Strings

[morgan_coke]

In all seriousness, I'm kind of impressed at just how badly GTC and DGM sucked compared to RtR and the original RGD. I mean, to throw that much coasting into your most popular world after starting it off so strongly, balls. Big brass ones. No way any of the peeps at wotc are walking straight today. Just hopping around on the clangers like it's a south park episode.

[Barook]

In all seriousness, I'm kind of impressed at just how badly GTC and DGM sucked compared to RtR and the original RGD. I mean, to throw that much coasting into your most popular world after starting it off so strongly, balls. Big brass ones. No way any of the peeps at wotc are walking straight today. Just hopping around on the clangers like it's a south park episode.
I'm also suprised how stuff like Mindstatic (Manaleak for :6:, CC: :3::u: ) and Warleader's Helix made it through development.

Those are terribly uninspiring designs.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I mean to be honest, the original Ravnica block was one of the more underwhelming blocks for Eternal formats, certainly outside of Ravnica itself.

The design was really fun and interesting though. Those sets were full of cards that you knew weren't Legacy viable but wanted to play anyway. Fuck, that's probably why EDH got invented.

This set? It's complete dogshit, I don't want to play 90% of these cards in any format and have no idea why they were printed. Lazy, shitty design.

[Pastorofmuppets]

In all seriousness, I'm kind of impressed at just how badly GTC and DGM sucked compared to RtR and the original RGD. I mean, to throw that much coasting into your most popular world after starting it off so strongly, balls. Big brass ones. No way any of the peeps at wotc are walking straight today. Just hopping around on the clangers like it's a south park episode.

Well, considering Wizards essentially "killed off" Dominaria long ago, you'd have to figure that their primary business model seems to be taking the basic concept of the game into new types of stories, following the same "memes" of M:tG.
Like, Innistrad and Zendikar were sick nasty. To be completely honest, I'd be happy if there was never a return to either of those because the story has already been written on those parchments.
I can also understand how it might be slightly easier to put the post-time spiral "Bradywalkers" into old planes for some quick and easy-to-design sets. Just make a bunch of references to old cards (Helix, for example) to shut up the fanboys and then move on. Ravnica fanboys in particular are the worst. There's something about the people who are super-attached to the fluff behind the guilds and whatnot that just upsets me. They're like the soccer moms with those stick-figure sticker effigies of their families on the back window of their minivans of the M:tG fandom.

[Kayradis]

They're like the soccer moms with those stick-figure sticker effigies of their families on the back window of their minivans of the M:tG fandom.


I lol'ed.

[Asthereal]

Only crappy stuff, nothing that will affect the Legacy meta.
But I'm actually pretty happy about that. I'm not particularly rich right now. :tongue:

[rufus]

Yeah...
Best card of the set: Wear/Tear.
Worth trying out: Gaze, Skylasher, Nocturn Theif, Hidden Strings

IMO there's a couple more long shots:
Wake the Reflections may eventually become a strong card.
Uncovered Clues could be decent in sorcery speed High Tide
Blood Scrivener's effect is strong, the question is how manageable the drawback is.
Nivix Cyclops might work for some kind of cantrip-aggro/pump thing.
Varloz might work as a combo element.
Beck//Call might do interesting things in combination with some kind of token producers. (If it were an instant, it would have good potential.)
Breaking//Entering as Glimpse the Unthinkable 5-8.

[(nameless one)]

Blood Schniever and Uncovered Clues are the hidden gems of this set.

The only thing that disappointed me was it didn't have an Evolving Wilds for Gates.

[Gheizen64]

The tap/untap 2 cypher is inno a good card in fish/aggro decks, basically you tap their blockers and untap tour lands the turn you play it. Imagine playing it t3, you tap their blocker and untap a land you control, then attack unblocked and untap 2lands again, getting mana from the spell and a cypher creature on top of it. The BW extort lifelink dude looks so cute I want to try him, but he'll probably be trash sadly, I really wanted a playable extort dude. The pro-blue dude is trash, 2 mana mediocre creature to counter aggressives 1 drops? Horrible design

[rufus]

...
Also, the rare blue cipher card is lulzy.

I guess it could be used it for changing islandwalk on multiple merfolk lords, or to go after the occasional landtype/color affected card like Knight of the Reliquary or Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth.

[Barook]

I guess it could be used it for changing islandwalk on multiple merfolk lords

Sounds interesting, but how is that better than the existing options to turn stuff into Islands, e.g. Tidal Warrior?

[Malakai]

This set's flavor text isn't as bad as others have been recently. That said, the overall flavor is one of the worst entries in magic's history.

imo.

<Goes and reads Mirage cards.>

[Malakai]

This set's flavor text isn't as bad as others have been recently. That said, the overall flavor is one of the worst entries in magic's history.

imo.

<Goes and reads Mirage cards.>


For the Gruul, bone-crushing rage is the first priority. Accuracy comes in a distant ninetieth.
I swear they must jam some of these out during bathroom breaks.

[rufus]

Sounds interesting, but how is that better than the existing options to turn stuff into Islands, e.g. Tidal Warrior?

Lulz? :wink:

[Aggro_zombies]

Lulz? :wink:
Also, you totally never lose to Blood Moon.

[TsumiBand]

Is it just me, or are there no actual Creature - Dragon cards in a set called Dragon's Maze...? Dragonshift notwithstanding obv.

I'm having trouble with the overarching vision of this block, I don't think it is very cohesive and I think it comes off as an excuse to reprint shocklands while also selling a block. RtR has neat tech but it's been talked about to death, the other sets all just seem to shift their attention to mid-range and up spells for no good reason, and weird concepts of half-finished mechanics and cycles like Gates and the RtR uncounterables and whatnot.

I wish the hell they would just buck up and print things they want to reprint for Modern/Eternal in the Core Set.

[Aggro_zombies]

Is it just me, or are there no actual Creature - Dragon cards in a set called Dragon's Maze...? Dragonshift notwithstanding obv.
As I understand it, the "dragon" referenced in Dragon's Maze is Niv-Mizzet, who figured out what the maze was and how it worked.

[Barook]

This is how I feel about the RTR block in a nutshell:

http://s7.directupload.net/images/130422/8ambgu9o.jpg

[clavio]

^ I love it

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Does anyone remember that roller coaster ride from Final Fantasy VII? You had to shoot things with your lasers but then they would run out, and running them out was terrible because they took forever to recharge from empty but I always did because I was like 12 and dumb.

That's what I feel like RTR block has been, only instead of lasers good ideas.

[TsumiBand]

This is how I feel about the RTR block in a nutshell:

http://s7.directupload.net/images/130422/8ambgu9o.jpg

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/37195432.jpg

Yeah, fairly inspired first set followed by "hey dude where's my reasonable casting cost".

[Amon Amarth]

Does anyone remember that roller coaster ride from Final Fantasy VII? You had to shoot things with your lasers but then they would run out, and running them out was terrible because they took forever to recharge from empty but I always did because I was like 12 and dumb.

That's what I feel like RTR block has been, only instead of lasers good ideas.

LMAO. This is perfect. I also agree with Tsumiband that there are a lot of weird unfinished cycles and ideas. I really "liked" how they didn't do anything with the Gates. There are so many cards that seem solely Limited fodder and then a bunch more like the champion cycle that are for EDH but aren't even interesting/good/build-around-y there. Perhaps a more appropriate name would be Dragon's Meh.

[rufus]

Am I the only one who feels like the mana curve for this set is strange - that is to say quite high?

[GradStudentGuy]

LMAO. This is perfect. I also agree with Tsumiband that there are a lot of weird unfinished cycles and ideas. I really "liked" how they didn't do anything with the Gates. There are so many cards that seem solely Limited fodder and then a bunch more like the champion cycle that are for EDH but aren't even interesting/good/build-around-y there. Perhaps a more appropriate name would be Dragon's Meh.
I think my Local playgroup will be calling it Dragon's Meh from now on. Also there are no dragons in this set...

[Finn]

A friend of mine drafts Gatecrash a lot. He says that it is one of the best draft formats he has played, and that plenty of the cards are good in Standard. Perhaps Dragon's Maze will also only suck when looked at through the lens of eternal formats.

Also, Barook is my hero.

[Tokugawa]

Cyclops, together with kiln fiend and wee dragonauts, could have synergy in a cantrip/burn deck.

But that is at the power level of pauper(the three guys are all common cards), not legacy.

[SpikeyMikey]

A friend of mine drafts Gatecrash a lot. He says that it is one of the best draft formats he has played, and that plenty of the cards are good in Standard. Perhaps Dragon's Maze will also only suck when looked at through the lens of eternal formats.

Also, Barook is my hero.

This. I dunno as I would say plenty, but it has some roleplayers. DGM is the same way; it will have a good impact on Standard. I'm waiting to see if Notion Thief and Whispering Madness are strong enough together to spawn a real deck. It's pretty disgusting, but then again, Rakdos's Return does a decent impression of the same thing and doesn't rely on a two-card combo.

I can say for certain that Turn//Burn is going to have a pretty solid impact on the format. Ral Zarek is likely to as well. Legion's Initiative is a boom/bust card; it'll either explode or disappear within 3 weeks. Blood Baron of Vizkopia is a definite Standard sleeper; it's not going to be doing much while Thragtusk is around, but it's basically Baneslayer. M13 rotates out, that card becomes a major player in the format. Combined with Obzedat, there's a very real 'big, bad WB' deck running around.

[Amon Amarth]

This. I dunno as I would say plenty, but it has some roleplayers. DGM is the same way; it will have a good impact on Standard. I'm waiting to see if Notion Thief and Whispering Madness are strong enough together to spawn a real deck. It's pretty disgusting, but then again, Rakdos's Return does a decent impression of the same thing and doesn't rely on a two-card combo.

I can say for certain that Turn//Burn is going to have a pretty solid impact on the format. Ral Zarek is likely to as well. Legion's Initiative is a boom/bust card; it'll either explode or disappear within 3 weeks. Blood Baron of Vizkopia is a definite Standard sleeper; it's not going to be doing much while Thragtusk is around, but it's basically Baneslayer. M13 rotates out, that card becomes a major player in the format. Combined with Obzedat, there's a very real 'big, bad WB' deck running around.

I do like that that Turn//Burn is an excellent solution to Thragtusk. It's a clever, interesting card. Not really digging Legion's Initiative, though.

Edit: Far//Away is also going to be playable too.

[bruizar]

i preordered 4 far away, 4 turn burn, 2 ral zarek and 4 hidden strings. Those were my picks.

[Awaclus]

This. I dunno as I would say plenty, but it has some roleplayers.
I've been away for a year and when I come back, a new term has been coined. What is a "roleplayer" in MtG context?

Sorry for offtopic.

[Darkenslight]

I've been away for a year and when I come back, a new term has been coined. What is a "roleplayer" in MtG context?

Sorry for offtopic.

A "roleplayer" in this context is probably a card that is useful in certain circumstances, but isn't really a maindeckable card in the format.

[SpikeyMikey]

It's not necessarily that it's not main deck worthy, it's just that it's not an exciting card. It's a workhorse card. It's going to see play in the format but it's not a card that anyone gets excited about. Rest in Peace is a good example. although it is generally a sideboard card. Deathrite Shaman is a $47 foil. Rest in Peace is a $7 foil. They see roughly the same amount of play across the big 3 formats (Standard/Modern/Legacy), but DRS is something people are excited about, something they talk about. RiP is a footnote.

[TsumiBand]

I do like that that Turn//Burn is an excellent solution to Thragtusk. It's a clever, interesting card. Not really digging Legion's Initiative, though.

Edit: Far//Away is also going to be playable too.

I might be overestimating their usefulness, but I think that Boros Charm and Legion's Initiative together actually sort of represent a much more general "oh shit handle" package than beatdown decks usually have.

I mean by and large the only answer to a board sweeper like WoG or Deed or Terminus is to just win faster than it can come down, right? Both of these cards let you either win faster OR deal in a different way. Legion's Init is a weird Crusade which can boost power and get there faster, or it can just respond to a shitty situation by RFGing your team until next combat. Boros Charm can deal 4 to the face and potentially just win the game if the opponent is in range, but it can also give your team indestructible, so like.. Wrath things or Deed things don't work, and neither does damage-based anything.

Both of these cards let you chump block like a champ for one turn - Legion's Init is a bit of a tell but Boros Charm doesn't necessarily reveal anything. And if they are never needed towards that end, then they just go ahead and increase the amount of damage you're doing.

God knows the whole game exists on the battlefield in Modern so maybe that is the only place where Charm + Initiative will matter a damn. But I mean really, we usually see stuff like protection from X when it comes to White's idea of 'answering' threats, apart from the occasional tax-bear or whatever, and for as neat as protection is against the right deck, it is such a limited means of actually protecting your permanents. Exiling your guys or making them literally impossible to destroy answers a ton of different things in a really generic way; this isn't the usual silver bullet junk that White generally gets. It's not as strong as just playing a Counterspell, but it is definitely in that same sort of "generic answer meets specific problem" toolbox.

As for Far // Away, I like it for being about as close to StP as a BU deck will ever get (there's Unmake I guess, but it targets and costs BBB in said deck). It takes someone's S&T/Reanimate/Sneak Attack/etc and puts the creature in whichever zone is the least accessible. You might even get to Fuse it, but honestly I don't think Fuse is making or breaking any split cards except maybe in Limited, where people will win the day with it on the regular. I see Fuse and I think of planeswalkers that get played - every PW has an ultimate and we mostly disregard that ultimate, it's the other more relevant abilities that inspire people to play 'walkers. I don't think it will be everywhere but I do think it's worth consideration.

[Gheizen64]

Looks like Rosewater has hinted that the new Chandra will be finally good. Can't wait (to get disappointed).

[Oiolosse]

Our luck she'll be OP and they'll ban her ;(

[Barook]

Looks like Rosewater has hinted that the new Chandra will be finally good. Can't wait (to get disappointed).


All I can say at this point is that Chandra is the face of the set.

Good doesn't necessary mean Legacy-good.

Wouldn't that imply that all other red walkers were intentionally made bad?

I think the more painful truth is that they can't design a red walker worth shit because the pool of red abilities is terrible and always comes down to burn something.

[HPB_Eggo]

I think the more painful truth is that they can't design a red walker worth shit because the pool of red abilities is terrible and always comes down to burn something.

Since burning things is always bad? I'd personally play something like this, and it might even border on the somewhat broken...

Trogdor the Burninator
1RR
+1 - Lightning Bolt.
-2 - 3 damage to each creature and player.
-5 - One-sided Sulfuric Vortex Emblem.
3 starting loyalty counters.

[rufus]

Since burning things is always bad? I'd personally play something like this, and it might even border on the somewhat broken...
...

I tend to think the problem is that burn is obviously potent, while deck manipulation is more subtle.

[HPB_Eggo]

I tend to think the problem is that burn is obviously potent, while deck manipulation is more subtle.

I can agree with this. It is much harder to foresee and control the power of Jace than it is to do the same with Chandra.

[Gheizen64]

I can agree with this. It is much harder to foresee and control the power of Jace than it is to do the same with Chandra.

That's why a 4 mana planeswalker has the best 1 mana draw spell in the game as a 0 while most red walkers have bolt at most as a -2?

Please.

[DrJones]

Judging from her M14 picture and previous experiences with what R&D considers a good red planeswalker, Chandra will probably destroy walls.

[TsumiBand]

Since burning things is always bad? I'd personally play something like this, and it might even border on the somewhat broken...

Trogdor the Burninator
1RR
+1 - Lightning Bolt.
-2 - 3 damage to each creature and player.
-5 - One-sided Sulfuric Vortex Emblem.
3 starting loyalty counters.

Isn't this one of those "it's meant for Red aggro but control uses it better" cards though? I like it, but it would be at its best in *dun dun duuuun* decks with countermagic.

[Arsenal]

Isn't this one of those "it's meant for Red aggro but control uses it better" cards though? I like it, but it would be at its best in *dun dun duuuun* decks with countermagic.

This. If a deck that only runs 3 red sources like RUG Delver is finding ways to make room for Sulfuric Vortex (1RR), this planeswalker would most certainly find it's way into a deck running blue countermagic/draw.

[Lemnear]

The Problem with the Chandra incarnations were not the Burn-spells attached but the manacost

Chandra Ablaze - 6cc + a card for 4 damage (+1 loyalty)
Chandra Nalaar - 5cc for 1 damage (+1 loyalty)
Chandra Firebrand - 4cc for 1 damage (+1 loyalty)

Make a 3cc with 0 Loyalty Lightning Bolt and you have an allstar (maybe add artifact removal a la Detonate)

[Megadeus]

The Problem with the Chandra incarnations were not the Burn-spells attached but the manacost

Chandra Ablaze - 6cc + a card for 4 damage (+1 loyalty)
Chandra Nalaar - 5cc for 1 damage (+1 loyalty)
Chandra Firebrand - 4cc for 1 damage (+1 loyalty)

Make a 3cc with 0 Loyalty Lightning Bolt and you have an allstar (maybe add artifact removal a la Detonate)

They just werent aggressive enough. I liked Koth and I still think he is great though. +1 loyalty and 4 mana to attack for 4 every turn is solid. Basically a 4 drop 4/4 with haste is good enough. I still dont know why he doesnt see more play

[Arsenal]

Make a 3cc with 0 Loyalty Lightning Bolt and you have an allstar

That seems pretty good, albeit maybe a bit too strong?

1RR
Burner of Blue Balls

+0: Lightning Bolt
+1: Pyroclasm
-6: One-sided Sulfuric Vortex, but maybe a bit nastier

3 Loyalty

[(nameless one)]

That seems pretty good, albeit maybe a bit too strong?

1RR
Burner of Blue Balls

+0: Lightning Bolt
+1: Volcanic Fallout
-6: One-sided Sulfuric Vortex, but maybe a bit nastier

3 Loyalty

Sulfuric Vortex Emblem would be good. Good luck getting rid of that.

[Esper3k]

That's why a 4 mana planeswalker has the best 1 mana draw spell in the game as a 0 while most red walkers have bolt at most as a -2?

Please.

Ancestral Recall would like a word with you...

[TorpidNinja]

Ancestral Recall would like a word with you...

Contract from Below would like a word with you...

[Lemnear]

That seems pretty good, albeit maybe a bit too strong?

1RR
Burner of Blue Balls

+0: Lightning Bolt
+1: Pyroclasm
-6: One-sided Sulfuric Vortex, but maybe a bit nastier

3 Loyalty

Goblin Guide is 1cc for 2 damage per turn so I think 3 damage per turn for 3cc is reasonable with the upsides/downsides between Walker/creature. For a real Legacy House:

1RR

+2: draw 1, discard 1
0: Lightning Bolt
-X: Demolition
-6: Sulfuric vortex emblem

2

[SpikeyMikey]

Contract from Below would like a word with you...

Haha, beat me to it.

[wcm8]

Repeatable bolt at 3cmc sounds pretty unfair. I would play UR Delver all day if that were a card.

The problem is that they haven't done enough to develop Red's color identity much beyond burn, haste, looting, and [mostly useless] ~*cHaOs*~ effects, and the occasional temporary mind-control effect. There needs to be more variety in the potential design space. I'm not sure exactly what they should do with Red.

[Arsenal]

Repeatable bolt at 3cmc sounds pretty unfair. I would play UR Delver all day if that were a card.

The problem is that they haven't done enough to develop Red's color identity much beyond burn, haste, looting, and [mostly useless] ~*cHaOs*~ effects, and the occasional temporary mind-control effect. There needs to be more variety in the potential design space. I'm not sure exactly what they should do with Red.

The printing of Abrupt Decay, Deathrite Shaman, and Liliana of the Veil revitalized the BGx archetype in virtually every format. They really need to do something with Red to make it a color again; either 1 bomb card or a few really strong cards printed at/near the same time.

[TsumiBand]

Judging from her M14 picture and previous experiences with what R&D considers a good red planeswalker, Chandra will probably destroy walls.

To be fair, with the power creep seen in dang near every other creature type, a playable Wall would be fierce as shit.

Derp Green Derp G


Creature - Wall Advisor

Hexproof, Infect, Clowncar

Whenever a creature attacks -this- deals 1 damage to it.

"...ssssstttteeeeeeaaaakkkk!!"

0/6

[Darkenslight]

To be fair, with the power creep seen in dang near every other creature type, a playable Wall would be fierce as shit.

Derp Green Derp G


Creature - Wall Advisor

Hexproof, Infect, Clowncar

Whenever a creature attacks -this- deals 1 damage to it.

"...ssssstttteeeeeeaaaakkkk!!"

0/6

Unplayable dreck. It's not blue and it only has 6 toughness. It needs 15 toughness and a "can't be sacrificed" clause. /s

[Esper3k]

Unplayable dreck. It's not blue and it only has 6 toughness. It needs 15 toughness and a "can't be sacrificed" clause. /s

Just make it a 2/4 reach, first strike, deathtouch, hexproof, can't be sacrificed.

[ahg113]

Just make it a 2/4 reach, first strike, deathtouch, hexproof, can't be sacrificed.

That might make Animate Wall a card. Enchantress?

[rufus]

That might make Animate Wall a card. Enchantress?

You'll note that it doesn't have defender. I don't see how Animate Wall makes a difference.

[ahg113]

under the assumption that the stats changed, but it remained a wall, i figured the casting cost was still G, with a name like Wall Advisor, I reckoned it had Defender. A 2/4 for G is pretty sweet, beats the heck out of Savannah Lions.

[TsumiBand]

I'm really glad that I left off the keyword Defender but decided to give it Clowncar. This is why I don't design cards for a living I guess.

[Barook]

0: Bolt on a walker would be pretty good, bur Ral Zarek just did it for -2. There's no way it's going to happen.

[lyracian]

0: Bolt on a walker would be pretty good, bur Ral Zarek just did it for -2. There's no way it's going to happen.
Dragons Maze; the set was so interesting to Eternal players they spent two pages discussing a hyperthetical planeswalker instead! :laugh:

[nedleeds]

0: Bolt on a walker would be pretty good, bur Ral Zarek just did it for -2. There's no way it's going to happen.

0: Brainstorm on a ... ah nevermind ...

[Arsenal]

Aside from Ral, there isn't really anything that piques my Legacy interest. Skylasher won't be replacing the utility and bonafied Flying of Scryb Ranger in Maverick, and everything else is basically a reprint of something playable + 1-3 more mana tacked on for kicks.

[nedleeds]

http://magiccards.info/scans/ko/dgm/56.jpghttp://magiccards.info/scans/de/hl/130.jpg

[Aggro_zombies]

The next block, Theros, has Greek and/or Roman influences (the same thing, really) and thus will likely have minotaurs.

Here's hoping for a functional reprint of Anaba Grunt.

[Gheizen64]

http://magiccards.info/scans/ko/dgm/56.jpghttp://magiccards.info/scans/de/hl/130.jpg

! 1 less mana for the win. Jokes asides, i guess changelings creatures already exist and are better than that.

[nedleeds]

8RR - Antichrist Minotaur
Creature - Minotaur Avatar Soldier Wizard Warrior Berserker Advisor

Haste, Double Strike, Pro White, Pro Blue

If an opponent controls an Island ~ gains Flying
If an opponent controls a Plains ~ gains Lifelink

If ~ would go to your graveyard shuffle it into your library instead. When ~ enters the battlefield, if you cast a blue sorcery this turn you lose the game and are dropped from the tournament.


10/10

[TsumiBand]

8RR - Antichrist Minotaur
Creature - Minotaur Avatar Soldier Wizard Warrior Berserker Advisor

Haste, Double Strike, Pro White, Pro Blue

If an opponent controls an Island ~ gains Flying
If an opponent controls a Plains ~ gains Lifelink

If ~ would go to your graveyard shuffle it into your library instead. When ~ enters the battlefield, if you cast a blue sorcery this turn you lose the game and are dropped from the tournament.


10/10

This is what I'm talking about. More IRL penalties for being a goddamned cheeky Blue player.

Gozira and Jilad at Tanagra 1GW

Legendary Creature - Fire Truck

Split second, vigilance

When -this- enters the battlefield, an opponent reveals their hand, library, exile, sideboard, and any cards outside the game that player owns. If that player owns more Blue cards than any other color or if that plays owns twice as many lands that produce one color of mana from the Alpha, Beta, Unlimited and/or Revised expansions of MAGIC as you do, contact your local law enforcement agency using passcode "Smrgrdigrr" to sentence that opponent to the punishment of your choice - Whenever it snows, that opponent performs naked community service; or at the end of each practice, that opponent becomes a uniform taster for the Green Bay Packers; or no less than two random visits at unannounced times per month for a punch in the swimsuit area from Andrew Dice Clay.

That opponent loses the game.

"... plus I'm out of Bolt range, ASSBUTT!"

3/4

[Infinitium]

...And now I lost the game.

Thanks.

As for the set, eh. In order of appearance on the spoiler:

*Renounce the Guilds is a white answer to Progenitus and provides an unique effect at a reasonable cmc. Possible SB card.
*Wake the Reflections could have some potential if future aggressively costed tokens are printed.
*Trait Doctoring likewise has some combo potential (as well as synergy with the elemental blasts if one is truly scraping the barrel for painter lists).
*Uncovered Clues is worse than Peer Through Depths in High Tide.
*Blood Scrivener will at the very least see play in Zombardment and possible some Rock variants as Bob 5+, I like how it actually gets worse with counterspells (albeit drawing 4 off BS every once in a while).
*Rubblebelt Maaka is a combat trick and equipment bearer for Dragon Stompy, still won't play though.
*Phytoburst could potentially see play in Infect decks; +9 power alongside Invigorate is not trivial.
*Skylasher seems meh, I'd rather have Sudden Shock most of the time. Maybe if Merfolk ever becomes a thing again.
*Boros Battleshaper is Thunder Bluff's new answer to S&T creatures.
*Deputy of Aquittals is a pretty solid Wizard once that decks hit critical mass.
*Gaze of Granite is a somewhat good Burning Wish target if little else.
*Legion's Initiative still looks decent in D&T splashing red.
*Notion Thief will see play definetly, only I don't know for how long. 4cc is a lot, even when it makes BS lose the game.
*Ral Zarek is a comedy option for Stasis decks; a 4 + 2 2-card combo with pieces that are marginally useful on their own is still pretty average however.
*Voice of Resurgence looks extremely solid for what it does (making MoM and Equipment better in Maverick-style decks) as well as being card advantage and efficient sizewise. I'd say its maindeck material.
*Beck/Call carries the pretty steep opportunity cost of forcing Elf decks to play blue, probably won't see much play beyond people testing it out.
*Wear/Tear is a superior card in a generally inferior color pairing.

Now, most of these cards will see exactly zero play once the novelty wears off, but I still don't think the set as bad as people make it out to be eternalwise. Nothing really stands out however.

[rufus]

...And now I lost the game.
...
*Trait Doctoring likewise has some combo potential (as well as synergy with the elemental blasts if one is truly scraping the barrel for painter lists).
...

It's a sorcery, so I don't think you can make the timing work.

OTOH, it can be used to change the text of land cards for mana fixing and denial.

[Humphrey]

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?15217-Obligatory-shitty-card-creation-thread

[sloppyjoe]

Nobody really saying anything about spike jester. He is 3 power for 2 mana with haste. This really is breaking new ground for haste dudes who stay in play. Many red decks spend 2 mana to cast marauders or hellspark, this guy could challenge those slots. Would also give red decks a reason to splash black for bump in the night.

I dunno...

[Aggro_zombies]

Nobody really saying anything about spike jester. He is 3 power for 2 mana with haste. This really is breaking new ground for haste dudes who stay in play. Many red decks spend 2 mana to cast marauders or hellspark, this guy could challenge those slots. Would also give red decks a reason to splash black for bump in the night.

I dunno...
No one is talking about Spike Jester because the decks you mentioned aren't actually good. Sure, budget burn can splash black for Bump, but there are plenty of creatures the deck would rather run over Jester (Goblin Guide, Hellspark Elemental and Keldon Marauders). The "staying in play" part is less relevant than being mono-color, having more toughness, or surprising someone out of the graveyard.

I mean, really, you don't run these guys because they stay in play, you run them because they hit hard, fast, and act like burn spells. If your opponent has a throwaway guy to stick in front of your Jester, you're sad, but you're not sad if the Jester is instead Hellspark because either choice your opponent makes in combat is decent for you.

[sloppyjoe]

No one is talking about Spike Jester because the decks you mentioned aren't actually good. Sure, budget burn can splash black for Bump, but there are plenty of creatures the deck would rather run over Jester (Goblin Guide, Hellspark Elemental and Keldon Marauders). The "staying in play" part is less relevant than being mono-color, having more toughness, or surprising someone out of the graveyard.

I mean, really, you don't run these guys because they stay in play, you run them because they hit hard, fast, and act like burn spells. If your opponent has a throwaway guy to stick in front of your Jester, you're sad, but you're not sad if the Jester is instead Hellspark because either choice your opponent makes in combat is decent for you.


Well for me, I was trying to look at this card from 3 different points of interest:
1) The fact that he stays in play is relevant when looking at his damage/mana cost ratio, something that burn/RDW players look at to max out efficiency. The gold standard is 3/1, which is what made a card like vexing devil so intriguing, and a card like goblin guide good. Cards like these tend settle in and find an average that you can count on in a vacuum per se, which is where I think card evaluation has to at least start. Unfortunately for spike jester, the metagame exists, so you move on to reality and big fat 3 / 4 Goyfs to slam into on the draw.

2) Being black/red is an idea for maybe pushing the red decks into greener pastures, where they might have better results. Also because I have always thought that Rain of Gore has been under utilized. I could see Rakdos perhaps being the go to version of hyper aggressive “Jund” with a few more printings like this, maybe a legacy playable blightning, or aggressive dudes with tidehollow sculler type effects that can add some disruption to the aggro palette. I think cards like this just need a few more cards that push the power level, and a card or two that is a standout rare or whatever. Just like rift bolt needs lightning bolt for it to be playable in anything.

3) And finally, I got to thinking how much more this card and cards like it really need to be playable? 4 power? 3 / 3? An etb effect? I mean I think that 2 mana is right where cards like this need to be, but this card is too borderline, but what if it were rare, it would have turned out to be more powerfull? I feel that this card is a sign that we will see a card that hits for 4 on turn 2 at some point.

[Gheizen64]

Problem is jester don't trample and trade with everything. Hellspark trample, that can be relevant, and isn't as bad as it trade because you can reanimate it anyway. Jester get blocked and you're in a bad spot. It's not a bad card, but i'd probably play Ash Zealot instead, it's monored, first strike means it's much harder to block and can deal 3 damage in the case of the occasional Snapcaster/Cabal Therapy. You know what i'd play before it also? Knight of Infamy. Exalted means it has semi-haste and pro-white 3/2 on the ground is nothing to scoff at when a lot of the creatures of the format are white.

[Aggro_zombies]

Problem is jester don't trample and trade with everything. Hellspark trample, that can be relevant, and isn't as bad as it trade because you can reanimate it anyway. Jester get blocked and you're in a bad spot. It's not a bad card, but i'd probably play Ash Zealot instead, it's monored, first strike means it's much harder to block and can deal 3 damage in the case of the occasional Snapcaster/Cabal Therapy. You know what i'd play before it also? Knight of Infamy. Exalted means it has semi-haste and pro-white 3/2 on the ground is nothing to scoff at when a lot of the creatures of the format are white.
This, pretty much.

One-toughness creatures die to everything in Legacy, basically. When you attack with a Hellspark Elemental, though, your opponent doesn't have any good decisions unless he can outright block it (say, with Tarmogoyf). If he can't, he can try to trade, but that's less attractive because then you unearth next turn and he's down a creature and taking the damage. He might opt to save his guy because Hellspark is dying EoT anyway, but then he's -3 life against a Burn deck and may very well have to chump next turn.

None of those lines occur when you have Jester. If they can trade, it's safe to do so, because Jester isn't coming back; I'd say it's actually reasonable just to snap trade in most cases where you can't just outright kill the Jester with a larger blocker. Jester also doesn't do anything but smash once he's in play, unlike other potential two drops (Ash Zealot, as Gheizen64 mentioned). Finally, the black splash in burn is much worse than the blue splash: instead of running a 3/1 with haste, you get a 3/2 with flying for less mana, plus Ponder and Brainstorm to keep you gassed up.

So I don't really think Jester will see play anywhere in the format, except maybe ultra-budget Standard ports. He's just kinda bad.

EDIT: Also, if it's black two-drops in Burn, I'd want to test Bob first, and Blood Scrivener second, possibly also Rix Maadi Guildmage. I wouldn't consider Jester.

[dameus]

"I am currently the most prolific Magic card designer in R&D. I'm the lead Magic designer. And you know what? The vast of majority of cards I create are junk."
~ Mark Rosewater

I couldn't agree more!

[UnderwaterGuy]

"I am currently the most prolific Magic card designer in R&D. I'm the lead Magic designer. And you know what? The vast of majority of cards I create are junk."
~ Mark Rosewater

I couldn't agree more!

:eyebrow:?

[Barook]

For what it's worth, Possibility Storm with Curse of Exhaustion seems interesting to hardlock your opponent from casting spells. It's too expensive by itself, but Replenish could work. Rule of Law works as well, but locks you out as well.

[rufus]

For what it's worth, Possibility Storm with Curse of Exhaustion seems interesting to hardlock your opponent from casting spells. It's too expensive by itself, but Replenish could work. Rule of Law works as well, but locks you out as well.

It only hits spells cast from hand. Stuff like cycling, madness, flashback and cascade is unaffected. So it's not a hard lock.

You can also use Teferi, Mage of Zhalphir, or get a softer lock from Ethersworn Cannonist.

[Arsenal]

Ral Zarek was beastly... in Sealed. Prerelease was meh other than ripping my Ral. I used Ral to attack, then untap for blocks; tap down opposing blocker to alpha strike; tap, untap, then tap mu single Swamp to generate BB to cast a critical spell. I was surprised at how versatile Ral turned out to be. Definitely piqued my interest for Modern applications....

[bruizar]

Congratulations to Mantis for winning the 72-man prerelease like a boss.

[Aggro_zombies]

So it turns out that when people are building greedy four- or five-color manabases so they can run all their bombs, WBR Aggro is, like, really fucking good. I went 4-0-1 (last round ID because I was tired) at my prerelease yesterday with a single rare and zero Cluestones in my deck because, hey, why not just kill people while they're trying to coax their shitty mana into working for them?

I imagine Orzhov-Rakdos is going to be one of the top aggressive decks in the new format. You get a lot of removal, a lot of little smashy dudes, and you can extort people out if the game ever grinds to a halt.

I'm going to play Simic-Golgari later today, though BUG didn't seem like it was doing well yesterday.

[zulander]

So this may be a dumb question, but why can't I pre-order the shock duals from this set?

[Zombie]

Because they're the Gatecrash cards. Only the Guildgates got redone. The Shocklands are the same down to the set symbol.

[iamajellydonut]

Because they're the Gatecrash cards. Only the Guildgates got redone. The Shocklands are the same down to the set symbol.

Really? I could've sworn I had seen a Blood Crypt drafted that had the Dragon's Maze symbol.

[Aggro_zombies]

Really? I could've sworn I had seen a Blood Crypt drafted that had the Dragon's Maze symbol.
Then you saw wrong, because only the Gates got the new symbol - and they have different art this time.

[Mr. Safety]

Has anyone else mentioned that with Notion Thief you always get the cards from Standstill? I'm not saying it makes Notion Thief playable, but with Brainstorm, Standstill, and Griselbrand all being notable card drawing staples, Notion Thief at least deserves a second glance. Again, I'm not saying it's good, but is anybody else wishing he was at 3 mana instead of 4?

[Tokugawa]

Has anyone else mentioned that with Notion Thief you always get the cards from Standstill? I'm not saying it makes Notion Thief playable, but with Brainstorm, Standstill, and Griselbrand all being notable card drawing staples, Notion Thief at least deserves a second glance. Again, I'm not saying it's good, but is anybody else wishing he was at 3 mana instead of 4?

I wish him at 2 mana and don't draw cards(just disable opponent's drawing is enough). Then he would be a obvious legacy playable card.

Plagiarize cost 4 while Chains cost 2. A man in standard who plagiarize every turn cost 3? Seems not reasonable.

[rufus]

It occurs to me that Blood Scrivener + Beck // Call + Zombie Infestation is an amusing combination.

[TsumiBand]

It occurs to me that Blood Scrivener + Beck // Call + Zombie Infestation is an amusing combination.

It's a billion colored mana, but I like it. Concordant Crossroads ftw?

[rufus]

It's a billion colored mana, but I like it. Concordant Crossroads ftw?

Dread Return (or even Cabal Ritual) seems like a better choice. Basking Rootwalla+Vengevine is also in-color.

Infestation+Beck//Call is pretty good without the scrivener - put bodies on the table while filtering the hand.

[joven]

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/245

So Augur of Bolas and Snapcaster Mage are the reason why Lightning Helix wasn't reprinted in the RtR block!

[Manipulato]

Hey Guys,
yesterday i looked at the price of Voice of Resurgence. He was at 18-19 €/piece on magiccardmarket.eu...
Today i looked again an I cant believe what i see!!! Cheapest for 50 € in spanish :eek: A english one for 58 €!?!
Can anybody explain me that fuckin price explosion??? I know he is good but not Jace good!

https://www.magickartenmarkt.de/Voice_of_Resurgence_Dragons_Maze.c1p261356.prod

Greeting from Germany^^

[Dia_Bot]

The average price is 29,70 €. Still not quite 50 €.

[JanoschEausH]

Well i guess it's the best card from the set... Also it's the only card, that will definitely see Legacy play, if you ask me. It's a win-win card in Elfball. Either they let you combo off, or you receive a ~ 15/15 creature. Seems powerful.

[TsumiBand]

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/245

So Augur of Bolas and Snapcaster Mage are the reason why Lightning Helix wasn't reprinted in the RtR block!

So, wait, people that play 3-color decks and risk their manabase pooping on them don't get to reap the rewards? I feel like going out on a limb with a bunch of non-hybrid costed spells should net you a potential uptick in synergy, but whatever I guess. Why is Helix -> Snapcaster -> Helix even that strong a play in Standard these days, all the creatures worth playing are like 5/5 hexproof sumbitches.

[BenBleiweiss]

Hey Guys,
yesterday i looked at the price of Voice of Resurgence. He was at 18-19 €/piece on magiccardmarket.eu...
Today i looked again an I cant believe what i see!!! Cheapest for 50 € in spanish :eek: A english one for 58 €!?!
Can anybody explain me that fuckin price explosion??? I know he is good but not Jace good!

https://www.magickartenmarkt.de/Voice_of_Resurgence_Dragons_Maze.c1p261356.prod

Greeting from Germany^^

I think you accidentally had your foil filter on - I still see them at 20-25E each for non-foils.

- Ben

[Manipulato]

I think you accidentally had your foil filter on - I still see them at 20-25E each for non-foils.

- Ben

10 minutes after my post i looked again and then they were at 22 €, i dont know what happened^^
I really watched exactly because i couldnt believe my eyes. No foil filter...

I dont think that a lot of legacy Decks wanna play that card because the best single removal spell of ther format (Swords to Plowshares) remove it without any advantage or anything!
Sure the whole BGx Decks only can DESTROY him and we get a token (which is quiet nice) but only nice and not more. Maverick cant cut good cards for that "quiet nice card" and the BGx Decks have a lot better cards than that. I think it will see many plays in Standard but in Legacy it will be a very specific SB card or a 1-2off in Maverick...

[JanoschEausH]

10 minutes after my post i looked again and then they were at 22 €, i dont know what happened^^
I really watched exactly because i couldnt believe my eyes. No foil filter...

I dont think that a lot of legacy Decks wanna play that card because the best single removal spell of ther format (Swords to Plowshares) remove it without any advantage or anything!
Sure the whole BGx Decks only can DESTROY him and we get a token (which is quiet nice) but only nice and not more. Maverick cant cut good cards for that "quiet nice card" and the BGx Decks have a lot better cards than that. I think it will see many plays in Standard but in Legacy it will be a very specific SB card or a 1-2off in Maverick...

As i said above. I think Elves likes that card as a 1-off against tempo. STP is not really relevant against Elves anyways...

[(nameless one)]

So, wait, people that play 3-color decks and risk their manabase pooping on them don't get to reap the rewards? I feel like going out on a limb with a bunch of non-hybrid costed spells should net you a potential uptick in synergy, but whatever I guess. Why is Helix -> Snapcaster -> Helix even that strong a play in Standard these days, all the creatures worth playing are like 5/5 hexproof sumbitches.

You have to remember, mana denial and land destruction doesn't exist in Standard.

[Manipulato]

As i said above. I think Elves likes that card as a 1-off against tempo. STP is not really relevant against Elves anyways...

Yes and that´s it....

[TsumiBand]

You have to remember, mana denial and land destruction doesn't exist in Standard.

Well sure, but you still have to draw all 3 colors. They don't have fetchlands or efficient card drawing or tutors either.

[Mr. Safety]

I wish him at 2 mana and don't draw cards(just disable opponent's drawing is enough). Then he would be a obvious legacy playable card.

Plagiarize cost 4 while Chains cost 2. A man in standard who plagiarize every turn cost 3? Seems not reasonable.

And then I play Mikokoro, Center of the Sea and Jace Beleren. It might not be broken, but drawing 2 extra cards a turn for minimal effort seems like a damn good bit of synergy to me.

[joven]

And then I play Mikokoro, Center of the Sea and Jace Beleren. It might not be broken, but drawing 2 extra cards a turn for minimal effort seems like a damn good bit of synergy to me.

Well, 4 CC is a lot.