[DGM] New Set spoiler discussion!

[Pastorofmuppets]

It's that time of year again. The flowers are blooming, pants are becoming shorts, and new cards are getting spoiled left and right.
What do you guys think, of what's spoiled so far (if anything at all), could have a place in Legacy?

Relevant links:
http://imgur.com/a/CAEp7

Would you splash blue to have 8 Glimpses in Combo Elves?
Counterspell/Orim's Chant on one card is neat, but are there any 3-mana counterspells in Legacy?
So far, I'm not feeling anything that's come out.

[Gheizen64]

That's no glimpse. That with wirewood hivemaster is the tits. Use forbidden orchard as a land for added value, as you don't really care about a single blocker when you have infinite power on the board via craterhoof behemoth.

It's probably worse than glimpse as a deck, but could have more interesting uses and synergies.

Ral Zarek is also a decent walker that could be broken if the right deck get made for it, and is probably really good in vintage because of Key/Vault and how good in general untapping things there is.

[ManyCookies]

Beck//Call could potentially be a Shardless Cascade target. *shrug*

[Aggro_zombies]

Beck//Call could potentially be a Shardless Cascade target. *shrug*
Shardless Agent into Most-of-a-Lingering-Souls seems not bad, but then you're not actually interested in trying to cast either side of Beck//Call in that deck. I doubt you want more than four "you can't actually cast this" cards.

[ManyCookies]

Why is it only most of a Lingering Souls?

But yes, the main issue would be Beck's usefulness if drawn. Which would basically be cantripping for 2 mana the majority of the time, which is relatively low value for a deck trying to vomit value.

[Aggro_zombies]

Why is it only most of a Lingering Souls?
Because for some reason I thought Souls was five tokens.

Anyway, yeah, neither half is that great if you're actually paying retail. The card isn't particularly playable in this format.

[Barook]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=141134&d=1365480205

This one looks interesting, although I have no idea how to abuse it.

Edit:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=141138&d=1365480696

This one seems pretty good with Cabal Therapy.

[feline]

I just want to see what the potential Legacy card is from the set, something we see that everyone knows it's going somewhere, Gatecrash was kinda a bust, though Return to Ravnica was obviously nice with Shaman/Decay.

Something that promotes 2 colors would be nice to see from Gatecrash that impacts Legacy, in either case, so far those cards are just "meh" I don't see them fitting into anything, but the spoilers have just started really.

[TsumiBand]

Sin Collector might be okay but not great in Deadguy? Unlike Tidehollow Sculler they never get the card back if they kill him. It's sort of dumb but he can be blinked for great success. I dunno. He's probably just a 2/1 for 3 with an ability that whiffs against decks with creatures. :/

[evanmartyr]

Beck//Call triggering on creatures entering play makes Zombie Infestation HILARIOUS. Seems a fairly simple deck to build, honestly. Throw in some hand disruption, maybe a teeny bit of mana acceleration, some filtering, one Anger, one Wonder, etc. Deck makes itself.

[CallMeLiam]

Master of Cruelties + any Ninja seems like a pretty unexpected way to get Phage's instant death effect. Does the timing on that work?

[Pastorofmuppets]

Because for some reason I thought Souls was five tokens.

Anyway, yeah, neither half is that great if you're actually paying retail. The card isn't particularly playable in this format.

This. If you think you're going to be good on running Beck in Legacy, you're just like that song he did. I hope someone will surprise me with it though because let's face it, variety is variety.

[Darkenslight]

Master of Cruelties + any Ninja seems like a pretty unexpected way to get Phage's instant death effect. Does the timing on that work?

Yes. You can respond to the unblocked trigger with Ninjutsu for hilarity, then any Ninja will kill. I much prefer Geistflame as a kill, though. Also turns off Force's ACC.

[Lemnear]

Master of Cruelties is plain stupid in Kaalia.edh

[Tylert]

Isn't Master of cruellty a good sideboard card for Burn decks vs show and tell decks?
If your opponent show and tell for Emrakul, you put master of cruellty in play and attack with it. your opponent has to block it, because he will be down to 1 and could be killed with burn.

What's the usual sideboarding strategy of burn vs show and tell?

[Lemnear]

Isn't Master of cruellty a good sideboard card for Burn decks vs show and tell decks?
If your opponent show and tell for Emrakul, you put master of cruellty in play and attack with it. your opponent has to block it, because he will be down to 1 and could be killed with burn.

What's the usual sideboarding strategy of burn vs show and tell?

Read the card; then we can talk about the bad idea of adding Black mana and running a 5cc creature in a Deck with ~16 lands

[Tylert]

Read the card; then we can talk about the bad idea of adding Black mana and running a 5cc creature in a Deck with ~16 lands

I said sideboard card, just like Mindbreak trap would be a sideboard card against storm, but you don't add blue to your deck for it.
You don't want to cast it. you want to put it into play with show and tell and force your opponent to block it with either griselbrand or Emrakul (if not, they die).
Of course if he plays omniscience, you're doomed :p
Anyway, I was just adding what came to my mind when i started thinking about what we could do with that card in legacy.

[Lemnear]

I said sideboard card, just like Mindbreak trap would be a sideboard card against storm, but you don't add blue to your deck for it.
You don't want to cast it. you want to put it into play with show and tell and force your opponent to block it with either griselbrand or Emrakul (if not, they die).
Of course if he plays omniscience, you're doomed :p
Anyway, I was just adding what came to my mind when i started thinking about what we could do with that card in legacy.

Again, read the card. That's not how Master of Cruelties work. He must be UNBLOCKED to reduce the life to 1. In your case Emrakul simply blocks MoC to death and nothing else happens

[Raystar]

Again, read the card. That's not how Master of Cruelties work. He must be UNBLOCKED to reduce the life to 1. In your case Emrakul simply blocks MoC to death and nothing else happens

Emrakul would die by blocking the Master...

[catmint]

If you are willing to play narrow sideboard cards which you only put into play of an opponents show&tell there are much better options, which also hit omniscience.

[Lemnear]

Emrakul would die by blocking the Master...

Yes. Still questionable if you want to board several MoC for the Chance that they drop Emrakul over Omniscience or Griselbrand

With your reasoning you can board Griselbrand, Emrakul or Oblivion Ring as well

[Arsenal]

So, Vorel effectively doubles the number of counters? Is that right? I think I may be retarded, but since it says "for each", I'm interpreting that to mean if my Jitte has 5 counters on it, Vorel activation would mean that my Jitte now has 10 counters on it, right?

[ahg113]

For the hell of it, Master of Cruelties is pretty sweet. It's the missing impact creature card I had always wanted for Team Italia (technically a deck?). Expensive critter, but the deck is mid-range, so a turn 6 kill would probably be speeding the deck up (assumed casted unmolested turn 5, swing turn 6, bolt/burn).

I don't think it's a Show'n'Tell response (that's a little too much of the "living the dream"), but a fun card that is surprisingly well costed and stats.

I think for it to be broken it'd have to have vigilance or cost 4, that would be funny.

[Darkenslight]

So, Vorel effectively doubles the number of counters? Is that right? I think I may be retarded, but since it says "for each", I'm interpreting that to mean if my Jitte has 5 counters on it, Vorel activation would mean that my Jitte now has 10 counters on it, right?

Yes. People have noted the interaction with Gideon's 0 abilities. Other 'walkers, however, can go suck Vorel's fins for all he cares!

[Tylert]

So, Vorel effectively doubles the number of counters? Is that right? I think I may be retarded, but since it says "for each", I'm interpreting that to mean if my Jitte has 5 counters on it, Vorel activation would mean that my Jitte now has 10 counters on it, right?

Yep. Too bad it can't target planeswalkers.

It's better than gilder bairn (you don't have to tap the simic champion to double counters), however, if gilder bairn has not been broken yet, i don't see it affecting legacy at all. (or at least as much as Master of Cruelties would affect it in burn decks' sideboard :) )

[Arsenal]

Most of these cards have "Commander" written all over them...

[DragoFireheart]

Most of these cards have "Commander" written all over them...

Any MTG card has "Commander" written all over it.

[Koby]

So, Vorel effectively doubles the number of counters? Is that right? I think I may be retarded, but since it says "for each", I'm interpreting that to mean if my Jitte has 5 counters on it, Vorel activation would mean that my Jitte now has 10 counters on it, right?

And so does Doubling Season for that matter. Which you would rather pay five mana for?

:4::g: for a continuous effect that can be used on Planeswalkers.
:1::g::u: + :g::u:,T for a one shot effect on non-Planeswalker permanents.

[Wilkin]

Interesting spoilers I must say.

Master of Cruelties as Show and Tell tech? Hmmm......my personal preference for show and tell sideboard tech would be cards you could reasonably cast if need be (such as Oblivion Ring, Humility, Stingscourger etc.). Some Sneak/show decks could just easily side out Show and tell and put in Through the Breach.... And of course there are the Omniscience/Dream Halls decks too... As far as what Burn decks usually side in against Show and Tell, the card I see the most from them Is Ensnaring Bridge. Very Effective vs Sneak/show as they have to get rid of it regardless of what enabler they have and at 3 mana easy to cast on its own.

Sin Collector is an interesting one too. I would say it's worse than Tidehollow Sculler because Sculler is one mana cheaper, one more toughness and can get any non-land. However, Collector does get rid of that card whereas with Sculler they could get it back. I could see it as a sideboard card maybe but definitely not a 4 of main.

[Aggro_zombies]

Amusing that Vorel is a very bad Proliferate on a Horned Turtle. Man, I am so psyched to try to build an EDH deck around him. [/sarcasm]

People over on the Commander forums seem to be happy about the other two generals, though. My guess is that Thar is better in the 99 than at the helm and the Izzet guy is one of those generals you use because you purposely don't want to play the best general in your colors.

Sin Collector feels very close to playability. If it cost two mana or were larger, it would be pretty interesting. As is, no bueno, I think.

[DrJones]

Aaron Forsythe spoiled on twitter a better Tariff against Progenitus and Geist of Saint Traft.

http://twitpic.com/ci7btg

Renounce the Guilds :1::w:
Instant (rare)
Each player sacrifices a Multicolored Permanent.

[Gheizen64]

Why it costs 2? It's terrible... At 1 it would've been a cute sb option against Jund (hitting DR on T1 is crucial, then it would hit BBE and the occasional Huntmaster). And even then Swords would've been the better card 99.9999% of the time.

At 2 it's just unplayable.

[ReAnimator]

Why it costs 2? It's terrible... At 1 it would've been a cute sb option against Jund (hitting DR on T1 is crucial, then it would hit BBE and the occasional Huntmaster). And even then Swords would've been the better card 99.9999% of the time.

At 2 it's just unplayable.

Pretty sure this card is aimed at Commander players, as you can conceivably hit every general on the table at the same time.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=141176&d=1365566632

A little disappointing. Not really a build-around-me kind of general, leaving B/W EDH decks to still have only Goodstuff or Tokens as the supported builds. Cool flavor, but way too "Timmyfied".

[Lemnear]

I stopped reading the card after the line "5WB"

[Barook]

I stopped reading the card after the line "5WB"
My first thought after reading her casting cost: "Damn, she got fat!".

Seriously, her ass bigger than an elephant's one. Let that sink into your head for a moment.

[Lemnear]

Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
{2}{B}{R}
Legendary Creature - Human Cleric (Rare)
First strike, haste
Unleash
Each other creature you control with a +1/+1 counter on it has haste.
3/3

http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/com...preview_exava/

[joretapo]

Renounce the guilds = anti maverick

[Lemnear]

Renounce the guilds = anti maverick

It's a clear EDH card. Worse than every existing removal in Legacy

[joretapo]

Just saying if maverick was a major player it hits knight and gadock almost as a targeted removal while bypassing mom. But right now maverick is not prevalent enough to justify a sideboard slot

[lyracian]

Just saying if maverick was a major player it hits knight and gadock almost as a targeted removal while bypassing mom. But right now maverick is not prevalent enough to justify a sideboard slotIt does kill Geist of St Traft and DRS but I agree still not likely to make the sideboard slots.

[Arsenal]

Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
{2}{B}{R}
Legendary Creature - Human Cleric (Rare)
First strike, haste
Unleash
Each other creature you control with a +1/+1 counter on it has haste.
3/3

http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/com...preview_exava/

Seems like Modern Jund got a new toy to play around with in that 4cc slot.

[Lemnear]

Lavinia of the Tenth

http://www.svenskamagic.com/articles/index.php?ID=1447

[DLifshitz]

Lavinia of the Tenth

http://www.svenskamagic.com/articles/index.php?ID=1447

They've completely lost it with people's P/T, haven't they?

I don't like the design of Exava much. Like with Rakdos, Lord of Riots, her ability is wasted on a 4-mana creature. It's not a bad card, though.

[TsumiBand]

Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
{2}{B}{R}
Legendary Creature - Human Cleric (Rare)
First strike, haste
Unleash
Each other creature you control with a +1/+1 counter on it has haste.
3/3

http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/com...preview_exava/

You know, I rather liked playing my poopy Rakdos Sligh deck in Standard. This makes me want to sleeve it up again. I think that it is probably second fiddle to Hellrider, and granting haste to other Unleashed guys on turn 5 feels a little bit late in the game to make it matter, but Exava has a decent body for the cost... so *maybe*?

I could also play it in BRG Bad Things so that I can guarantee that my Phantom Tigers and Centaurs have haste. Actually, that sounds amazing. Please be a shitty dollar rare, so that I might build a terrible deck around you, Exava of the Non-bo.

[Darkenslight]

Armed :1::r:
Sorcery
Target creature gets +1/+1 and double-strike until end of turn.

AND

[b]Dangerous[/bg] :3::g:
Sorcery
One-shot Lure

FUSE

Amazing Finisher in Limited and Standard.

[Aggro_zombies]

You know, I rather liked playing my poopy Rakdos Sligh deck in Standard. This makes me want to sleeve it up again. I think that it is probably second fiddle to Hellrider, and granting haste to other Unleashed guys on turn 5 feels a little bit late in the game to make it matter, but Exava has a decent body for the cost... so *maybe*?

I could also play it in BRG Bad Things so that I can guarantee that my Phantom Tigers and Centaurs have haste. Actually, that sounds amazing. Please be a shitty dollar rare, so that I might build a terrible deck around you, Exava of the Non-bo.
The haste thing is nice because it turns any extra unleash guys you draw/still have in hand into semi-burn spells. I actually like that a lot about her - Rakdos could kind of peter out in the midgame in Limited if you hadn't hit them hard enough early on.

[TsumiBand]

Armed :1::r:
Sorcery
Target creature gets +1/+1 and double-strike until end of turn.

AND

[b]Dangerous[/bg] :3::g:
Sorcery
One-shot Lure

FUSE

Amazing Finisher in Limited and Standard.

I was about to say it doesn't seem all that impressive, but then I remembered that the targets don't have to be the same guy. Derp. That IS awesome.

[Barook]

Armed :1::r:
Sorcery
Target creature gets +1/+1 and double-strike until end of turn.

AND

[b]Dangerous[/bg] :3::g:
Sorcery
One-shot Lure

FUSE

Amazing Finisher in Limited and Standard.
Armed is pretty cool. We might have reached the critical mass for double strike Stompy now.

[Pastorofmuppets]

I was about to say it doesn't seem all that impressive, but then I remembered that the targets don't have to be the same guy. Derp. That IS awesome.

It's an uncommon that can straight-up win the game in limited. I love it.

[Tammit67]

It's an uncommon that can straight-up win the game in limited. I love it.

Even if it had to target the same thing!

[sderenatore]

Excuse me guys, what happens if I cascade into Beck//Call (lets say with Shardless Agent): Do i get to cast both parts?

Beck UG
Whenever a creature enters the battlefield this turn, draw a card.

Call 4UW
Put four 1/1 Bird creatures tokens with flying onto the battlefield.

[Arsenal]

Excuse me guys, what happens if I cascade into Beck//Call (lets say with Shardless Agent): Do i get to cast both parts?

Beck UG
Whenever a creature enters the battlefield this turn, draw a card.

Call 4UW
Put four 1/1 Bird creatures tokens with flying onto the battlefield.

No, Fuse specifically has a "cast from your hand" clause that would not interact with Cascade the way you want it to.

[sderenatore]

No, Fuse specifically has a "cast from your hand" clause that would not interact with Cascade the way you want it to.

Thanks for the answer, that seems better.

[rufus]

Armed is pretty cool. We might have reached the critical mass for double strike Stompy now.

Hmm... Assault Strobe,Tainted Strike,and Berserk all seem like more compelling pump cards, and you don't really want to double up on double strike.

[GradStudentGuy]

Honestly after gatecrash I would be happy with a single playable split card and maybe a good new sideboard card. Then again I am not giving my hopes up.

[Technics]

No, Fuse specifically has a "cast from your hand" clause that would not interact with Cascade the way you want it to.

However I believe you can cast either side?

[Barook]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=141221&d=1365653080

Ha ha, time for Dreadnoughts!

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=141223&d=1365653080

A "fixed" Bob? Who knows, but more card draw is always nice. Should combine well with Liliana. Might be cool.

Question: If you're hellbent, do you draw 4 or 6 cards from it with Brainstorm?

[feline]

A "fixed" Bob? Who knows, but more card draw is always nice. Should combine well with Liliana. Might be cool.

Question: If you're hellbent, do you draw 4 or 6 cards from it with Brainstorm?

Question: If you're hellbent, do you draw 4 or 6 cards from it with Brainstorm?<------!!!!!!!!!!!!

I did not think about that AT ALL, good god when I first read the card I was like "O great you have to be in top deck mode, lame" but then I read that and now I'm brainstorming, literally.

Anyhows, it says when you would draw a card, so either it would be based on brainstorm as a whole, in which you'd cast it, have no cards in hand, draw an extra card and 3 cards, -or- you'd brainstorm, draw the first & extra card, then draw the next 2 as normal, in both scenarios the total is 4, but if some weird cause lets this slip through and you net 6, then that's more insane than ancestral recall, though it obviously has some requirements of course!

Anyhow going back to a 2/1 that requires you to be in topdeck mode to benefit seems nice for a very aggressive deck, but the idea of "benefiting" from no cards in hand never seems to be a good aim, like hellbent, after all this time the only thing you see is Infernal Tutor and that's only in Ad Nauseam Storm decks, with the help of Lion's Eye Diamond. When I think about "do I really want to be in topdeck mode in Legacy" it makes me look at the new 2/1 and go "not really" but, that's not coming from an aggro deck perspective, those who can properly say from an aggressive deck point of view might disagree with me on it. Or of course if there's some broken combo with it ha ha.

[GradStudentGuy]

Question: If you're hellbent, do you draw 4 or 6 cards from it with Brainstorm?

You draw 4. Its replacement effect not a trigger.

[Namida]

If anyone is actually playing the BG Illusionary Mask/Torpor Orb Deck with Dreadnaughts and Hunted Horrors...Have fun with Varolz, I guess?

[GradStudentGuy]

If anyone is still playing the BG Illusionary Mask/Torpor Orb Deck with Dreadnaughts and Hunted Horrors...Have fun with Varolz, I guess?

Deaths Shadow also plays well with the card.

[rufus]

Anyhows, it says when you would draw a card, so either it would be based on brainstorm as a whole, in which you'd cast it, have no cards in hand, draw an extra card and 3 cards, -or- you'd brainstorm, draw the first & extra card, then draw the next 2 as normal, in both scenarios the total is 4, but if some weird cause lets this slip through and you net 6, then that's more insane than ancestral recall, with the condition of the new creature in play!

Draw replacement is one at a time so it would normally only replace the first one i.e. you would draw four cards. However if you have something in play that replaces the draw like Chains of Mephistopholes, Pursuit of Knowledge or Uba Mask is in play, then the ability could affect all three of the brainstorm draws (and things would get silly with multiples of the critter in play.)

Edit:
Though I expect it not to be that exciting there, the card does work with stuff like Winds of Change,Tolarian Winds,Reforge the Soul,Dangerous Wager,Molten Psyche or Shattered Perception.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=141221&d=1365653080

Ha ha, time for Dreadnoughts!

Dreadnought isn't the best bet. Death's Shadow is, because it not only gives you more bang for your buck, but it is Modern legal. If I had some cash to speculate with, I'd be buying up Shadows en masse at cheap prices, or at least pick up a playset in case this thing becomes legit (though it likely won't).

Sounds like a fun casual deck idea, however. That is, if 60-card casual still existed...

[SpikeyMikey]

As far as the fixed Bob, the question is, what does it do to burn? I mean, burn is already really fast. And it already splashes black for Dark Confidant. Now clogging on draw creatures would be bad vs. combo. But against anything else? Seems like having 8 Bobs would be really, really strong. Burn board card?

Also, that's just playing with it the fair way. It's too late at night to sit up leafing through cards to look for combos, but that's a very abusable mechanic. Any mechanic that is repeatable and costs 0 is abusable. There's something out there to break this with. Obviously, you're not trying to go infinite with this, as you have a finite life total, but there's likely something out there that can use this in unintended ways.

[rufus]

...
Also, that's just playing with it the fair way. It's too late at night to sit up leafing through cards to look for combos, but that's a very abusable mechanic. Any mechanic that is repeatable and costs 0 is abusable. There's something out there to break this with. Obviously, you're not trying to go infinite with this, as you have a finite life total, but there's likely something out there that can use this in unintended ways.

Zombie tribal with Zombie infestation? Wizard tribal? I suspect the best option ends up being some kind of pox/discard deck.

[Vacrix]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=141221&d=1365653080

Ha ha, time for Dreadnoughts!

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=141223&d=1365653080

A "fixed" Bob? Who knows, but more card draw is always nice. Should combine well with Liliana. Might be cool.

Question: If you're hellbent, do you draw 4 or 6 cards from it with Brainstorm?
I like these designs.

Though Blood Scrivenger could get played in blue with Brainstorm, I'd expect it to see more play with Sensei's Divining Top.

[Megadeus]

Liliana plsu the new Bob dude does seem hella sweet. You dont get to flip a land for 0 damage, but you do get to draw a tombstalker for the turn and not 8 yourself ;) Hooray for being greedy!

[Lemnear]

Blood Scrivener is insane! King with burn and discard heavy decks.

Stupid question: how does it interact if you put Brainstorm on the stack and no cards in your hand? Draw 4 or 6 ?:/


What an amount of 5cc+ rare+ creatures in this set ... geeez

[wcm8]

Stupid question: how does it interact if you put Brainstorm on the stack and no cards in your hand? Draw 4 or 6 ?:/


I am fairly certain that you just draw 4. I think somewhere buried in the rules it talks about how 'Draw X' is divided into discrete actions. So you could expand Brainstorm's rules text into 'Draw a card. Draw a card. Draw a card. Then put 2 cards from hand back on top.'

Dangerous Wager could be a possible option with Scrivener. I'm actually surprised Wager never showed up in Burn decks anyways.

[Rizso]

If you have 2 Blood Scrivener in play you draw 4 or?

[Amon Amarth]

Blood Scrivener is awesome. Pretty sweet additional two drop, with Withered Wretch, for a Zombie Tribal deck. Really wanna brew up a list for that soon.

[Rizso]

Zombie bombardment just got an extra zombie that also works with their drawing engine of Looting.

[xfxf]

I love the art on that new zombie, reminds me of Bog Wraith.

[lordofthepit]

That new Zombie Confidant looks really interesting, but one of the most powerful features of Bob was to be able to rip their removal spells on turn 1 and slam it down on turn 2, thereby allowing you to gain overwhelming card advantage before your opponent could find removal.

That may seem minor, but it's probably enough to condemn this Zombie into seeing play only in the Walking Dead rather than being a format staple.

[Gheizen64]

Scrivener + top seems pretty good. If you have no cards it's like:

1, pay 1 life: draw a card

It's no necro, but miles better than Greed. And both cards are fine on their own, so it's not like you are clogging your deck with bad cards.

Also i like that both this and confidant work better in aggressive decks, but for different reasons. They work badly together tho'.

Powering your card drawing spells is always nice, things like faithless loothing and whatsnot.

[ubernostrum]

The (French-spoiled, so name might be off) "Obzedat's aid" could be interesting. 3WB sorcery, reanimate a permanent. How realistic is five mana to hit with, say Omniscience in the yard?

[Barook]

The (French-spoiled, so name might be off) "Obzedat's aid" could be interesting. 3WB sorcery, reanimate a permanent. How realistic is five mana to hit with, say Omniscience in the yard?
You could just Replenish into play for cheaper.

I initially dismissed Death's Shadow before realizing that his P/T doesn't get modified in the GY. Hell, even scavenging Goyfs is valuable after they got countered/Abrupt Decayed.

Blood Scrivener + Top should be good. Best case scenario is something like:

Draw step, draw 2, play/get rid of two both cards, tap SDT, get another two cards. That's pretty awesome for minimal resource investment.

[Darkenslight]

There's a semi-interesting card and the Dimir Guild Champion spoiled, as well as the Rakdos Mythic:

Rotfarm Skeleton :2::b::g:
Creature - Plant Skeleton
~ can't block.
2BG, mill four: return ~ to the battlefield. Play only as a Sorcery.
4/1

Mirko Vosk, Mind Drinker :3::u::b:
Legendary creature - Vampire
Flying
Saboteur - Mind Funeral that player.
2/4

Sire of Insanity :4::b::r:
Creature - Demon
At the beginning of each end step, each player discards their hand.
6/4

[imnotbrown]

There's a semi-interesting card and the Dimir Guild Champion spoiled, as well as the Rakdos Mythic:

Rotfarm Skeleton :2::b::g:

Mirko Vosk, Mind Drinker :3::u::b:

Sire of Insanity :4::b::r:


Not gonna lie. The Dimir Champion seems a bit... underwhelming. I'm not exactly sure what saboteur does, but I'm going to go ahead and assume that it'll activate whenever a player plays a creature spell. Which doesn't really have as much of an impact as some of the other champions spoiled. The other two are okay, but feel like they're still missing something. Also, there was already a rakdos mythic spoiled. Where did you say these were spoiled from?

[joven]

Rotfarm Skeleton :2::b::g:
Creature - Plant Skeleton
~ can't block.
2BG, mill four: return ~ to the battlefield. Play only as a Sorcery.
4/1

Mirko Vosk, Mind Drinker :3::u::b:
Legendary creature - Vampire
Flying
Saboteur - Mind Funeral that player.
2/4


Lol, a sort of Dredge with mana cost and to battlefield instead of hand. Cute.

I think Saboteur means "if deals combat damage to a player".

[LennonMarx]

Not gonna lie. The Dimir Champion seems a bit... underwhelming. I'm not exactly sure what saboteur does, but I'm going to go ahead and assume that it'll activate whenever a player plays a creature spell. Which doesn't really have as much of an impact as some of the other champions spoiled. The other two are okay, but feel like they're still missing something. Also, there was already a rakdos mythic spoiled. Where did you say these were spoiled from?

Saboteur is shorthand for "When ~ deals combat damage to a player"

[imnotbrown]

Saboteur is shorthand for "When ~ deals combat damage to a player"
Hm. The more you know. In that case, it's sort of counteractive because it's as if you are pitting two win cons against each other. All things considered, it won't see any play in legacy. Maybe in standard esper, as like a 2-of.

[Tylert]

Rotfarm skeleton ability is too expensive unfortunately...
It will be used in EDH 1v1 i suppose, or perhaps also in a semi-dredge deck in standard, but nowhere else... Too bad it can't block.

THe champion won't be played anywhere else than in Limited (where it's an obvious bomb).

[Darkenslight]

Lol, a sort of Dredge with mana cost and to battlefield instead of hand. Cute.

I think Saboteur means "if deals combat damage to a player".


Saboteur is shorthand for "When ~ deals combat damage to a player"

Yep. sorry if I wasn't clearer - A "saboteur" card is a card that has a trigger upon dealing combat damage to a player.

[BlackFlameAshura]

Not gonna lie. The Dimir Champion seems a bit... underwhelming. I'm not exactly sure what saboteur does, but I'm going to go ahead and assume that it'll activate whenever a player plays a creature spell. Which doesn't really have as much of an impact as some of the other champions spoiled. The other two are okay, but feel like they're still missing something. Also, there was already a rakdos mythic spoiled. Where did you say these were spoiled from?

It's more if it hits a player. Still kinda underwhelming, but lots of casual appeal in Mind Funeral-type abilities. I'd like to say it'll see some Standard play with Nephalia control decks being played but it doesn't exactly get around Restoration Angel or anything so I don't really know.

[rufus]

...Dreadnought isn't the best bet. Death's Shadow is, because it not only gives you more bang for your buck, but it is Modern legal. If I had some cash to speculate with, I'd be buying up Shadows en masse at cheap prices, or at least pick up a playset in case this thing becomes legit (though it likely won't).

Sounds like a fun casual deck idea, however. That is, if 60-card casual still existed...

Direct Buried Alive combos work better with Necrotic Ooze, but this guy is much easier to hard cast., and there's some potentially clever synergies with Call to the Netherworld or Unearth, and it doesn't take a whole lot of imagination to come up with fast kills using his abilities.

[joven]

-
Bred for the Hunt - 1UG
Enchantment
Whenever a creature you control with a +1/+1 counter on it deals combat damage to a player, you may draw a card.
-

It's a Coastal Piracy for Evolve creatures. Hm, I always liked Coastal Piracy.

[DLifshitz]

-
Bred for the Hunt - 1UG
Enchantment
Whenever a creature you control with a +1/+1 counter on it deals combat damage to a player, you may draw a card.
-

It's a Coastal Piracy for Evolve creatures. Hm, I always liked Coastal Piracy.

It's a narrowly conditional Edric, Spymaster of Trest without a body. I personally think it's just bad.

[Darkenslight]

Also:

Flesh? :3::b::g:
Sorcery (R)
Exile target creature from a graveyard, put X +1/+1 counters on target creature. X equal to the power of target card you exiled this way.

AND

Blood :r::g:
Sorcery(R)
Target creature you control deals damage equal to its power to target creature or target player.

Fuse (You may cast one or both halves of this card from your hand.)

[baghdadbob]

Ral Zarek looks just absolutely insane. One of my new favorite planeswalkers for sure. Loving that final ability so much fun.

[TsumiBand]

Also:

Flesh? :3::b::g:
Sorcery (R)
Exile target creature from a graveyard, put X +1/+1 counters on target creature. X equal to the power of target card you exiled this way.

AND

Blood :r::g:
Sorcery(R)
Target creature you control deals damage equal to its power to target creature or target player.

Fuse (You may cast one or both halves of this card from your hand.)

They keep teasing me with these 2 cmc RG burn spells man. Fucking whatever.

Also to be fair, I guess in Standard there's some potential here. There's just enough apparently relevant pump going around that I could imagine someone derping a win by pumping a guy with Ghor-Clan Rampager and then going to the face with the RG junk. It's a Sorcery speed Fling without the sac (or Soul's Fire I guess if you prefer a cleaner analogy). With all the fight that's going around these days, it's slightly redundant, but then again ya can't fight a player, so maybe.

Maybe I *will* put together that poopy Kiln Fiend/Blistercoil Weird deck just to see how often I can Manamorphose into Fling/Blood. Two Bolt effects (opp 14, KF is 7 power), Manamorphose to fix manas and draw things (opp 14, KF 10 power), maybe be shitty and play Gut Shot or Mutagenic Growth or some terribad card (opp 13? ok gut shot, KF @ 13) and then Fling/Blood the opponent for extreme emotional powerhouse victory.

That's only what, 6 cards? Red Combo Winter, suckers! They had an 8-Blast sideboard, I brought an 8-Blast sideboard. I brought a Flesh//Blood, then I brought Quest for the Goblin Lord.

[Barook]

Maybe I *will* put together that poopy Kiln Fiend/Blistercoil Weird deck just to see how often I can Manamorphose into Fling/Blood.

There's always the option to add Immolating Souleater to the mix for the Channel/Fireball-like instagib.

Rule question: If your creature is killed while the spell is on the stack, does it deal 0 damage?

With Goyf, it would still be 4-5 damage for 2 mana in most cases.

[joven]

Rule question: If your creature is killed while the spell is on the stack, does it deal 0 damage?


If you mean Blood or Soul's Fire: The spell loses its target and fizzles.

[Barook]

If you mean Blood or Soul's Fire: The spell loses its target and fizzles.

Not really, but thanks for the example. It deals 0 damage:


If either target has become illegal by the time Soul's Fire resolves, the spell will still resolve but have no effect. If the first target is illegal, it can't perform any actions, so it can't deal damage. If the second target is illegal, there's nothing for the first target to deal damage to. If both targets have become illegal, the spell will be countered.

On a different note:

Entomb/Buried Alive with Valrolz seems pretty cool, especially since you can tutor for him with GSZ, although that might be too cute for Legacy. 14/14 Silhana Ledgewalkers sound sexy, though. He would also be hilariously stupid if Survival was unbanned.

[Gheizen64]

There's always the option to add Immolating Souleater to the mix for the Channel/Fireball-like instagib.

Rule question: If your creature is killed while the spell is on the stack, does it deal 0 damage?

With Goyf, it would still be 4-5 damage for 2 mana in most cases.

Yeah it's a decent spell with Goyf, but still, not doing anything on an empty board is not something you want from your reach spells.

[Aggro_zombies]

Blood Scrivener is great because it is the sort of card that is probably worse in blue decks than it is in non-blue decks. Cantrips and counters ensure that your hand always has at least a couple cards in it, which makes it harder to get value out of this guy than Bob. But this guy is much more interesting in decks that don't have blue and thus don't keep a lot of cards in hand after the first few turns. Bobs 5-6 or 5-7 might be interesting for decks like Deadguy, BG Suicide, BR Aggro, and other such things.

Whether this is enough to make those decks any good is another issue, though.

[Lemnear]

It still sux that Bob negates Blood Scrivener if you Control both

[rufus]

It still sux that Bob negates Blood Scrivener if you Control both

Unless the card you got off Bob somehow leaves your hand before you draw another one, or you draw 'in front' of the Bob trigger using something like Sensei's Divining Top.

[DrJones]

I wouldn't pair Blood Scrivener with Bob, but maybe I would pair it with Sygg, River Cutthroat.

[conboy31]

I have wanted to play bazaar in non-dredge vintage. Am excited at the prospect of coming up with and looking for Blood Scrivener brews.

[theillest]

I wouldn't pair Blood Scrivener with Bob, but maybe I would pair it with Sygg, River Cutthroat.
Pairing with bob is fine for B(x) sui, imo. Sygg is just an underpowered card.

[DrJones]

Pairing with bob is fine for B(x) sui, imo. Sygg is just an underpowered card.Good luck trying to make that pairing work, then. :wink:

[joemauer]

Bob doesn't actually draw cards, correct? So having the two guys in play sort of negates Blood Scriviner.

This guy may the missing link in a zombies deck though. All the other Zombies are 2/x for one mana making it easy to do a hand dump via Dark Ritual. But besides being pumped by Zombie Lords, Blood Scriviner is inferior to Bob. The damage taken from Bob is minimal and Bob's card draw is not conditional. Blood Scriviner will fit best in decks with a low mana curve anyway, so he won't open up much deck building that Bob couldn't.

Doubt he will see play in Legacy. Maybe Modern and Standard though.

[Rizso]

Bob doesn't actually draw cards, correct? So having the two guys in play sort of negates Blood Scriviner.

This guy may the missing link in a zombies deck though. All the other Zombies are 2/x for one mana making it easy to do a hand dump via Dark Ritual. But besides being pumped by Zombie Lords, Blood Scriviner is inferior to Bob. The damage taken from Bob is minimal and Bob's card draw is not conditional. Blood Scriviner will fit best in decks with a low mana curve anyway, so he won't open up much deck building that Bob couldn't.

Doubt he will see play in Legacy. Maybe Modern and Standard though.

Sensei's Diving Top doesnt exist in modern or standard thought. Pairing bloodbob with top and you can get value the turn you cast bloodbob, can even get multiple triggers per turn with it.

[BlackFlameAshura]

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/dgm/tiwoirwiixix/u1gpj8j2ko_EN.jpg

Voice of Resurgence :w::g:
Creature - Elemental (M)
Whenever an opponent casts a spell on your turn or when ~ dies, put a green and white Elemental creature token into play with "This creature's power and toughness are each equal to the number of creatures you control."
2/2

Okay, so this thing looks kinda nutty. I'm already itching to try it in Maverick, even, since he's already a solid cheap bear (like most of the stuff in the deck) that chumps and likely gets bigger and/or makes other dudes when your opponent goes Brainstorm on your turn. Has a problem with Swords (if they play it on their turn) but I'd gladly have them Swords it over KotR any day.

[CorwinB]

Voice of Resurgence is a great card, no doubt, but I really don't see how it feels "Mythic" in any way. As described in the original article, it's a hoser to Flash decks. Putting it at Mythic strikes me as a blatant money grab.

It looks good for Maverick, but it doesn't help against Terminus played on opponent's turn, sadly.

[BlackFlameAshura]

Voice of Resurgence is a great card, no doubt, but I really don't see how it feels "Mythic" in any way. As described in the original article, it's a hoser to Flash decks. Putting it at Mythic strikes me as a blatant money grab.

It looks good for Maverick, but it doesn't help against Terminus played on opponent's turn, sadly.

I agree with the mythic status as a cash grab but seeing it got me really excited. And yeah, but Terminus makes Maverick a sad panda as a whole regardless. I'm really glad I don't see it much in my meta. The only things that I think could really make this guy a problem for me is if they Swords or Path it on their turn but if it resolves, it's very likely to make their play choices more difficult. Countering becomes rough for them, they have to think before playing Brainstorm and removal, stuff like that, and he's just a solid bear who gets almost certainly bigger.

[CorwinB]

This was also revealed today :
http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/dgm/tiwoirwiixix/0mmqpnxqu5_EN.jpg

Pretty interesting design for a Meddling Mage variant, probably too expensive for Legacy sadly.

[BlackFlameAshura]

This was also revealed today :
http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/dgm/tiwoirwiixix/0mmqpnxqu5_EN.jpg

Pretty interesting design for a Meddling Mage variant, probably too expensive for Legacy sadly.

Been hearing some talk about modern in the SB for mirror matches with UWR flash-style decks. I'm even interested to see how it'll fare in standard. It looks like a neat little card that could either do a lot or not really do anything at all.

[joven]

I don't like Voice of Resurgence. It is one of those calculated card designs that only exists to fix a problem in the Standard metagame which R&D is always so proud of. It's one of those Great Sable Stag and Ash Zealot cards. It feels artificial. The only nice thing about its design is that they tried to make it specially strong for creature-heavy Selesnya decks.

Well, seems like Maverick could make use of it the most in Legacy.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I'm going to pick up a set of Voice of Resurgence just because of the picture. Hot damn is that one fine looking card (picture-wise). I doubt it will make much of a splash in eternal formats, as killing him on your own turn isn't at all difficult, and even storming off isn't going to be detrimental ("You have 30 31/31 creatures... and now you lose 40 life."). It's like a Gaddock Teeg that doesn't hurt control decks as much as Gaddock Teeg does.

[Final Fortune]

Been hearing some talk about modern in the SB for mirror matches with UWR flash-style decks. I'm even interested to see how it'll fare in standard. It looks like a neat little card that could either do a lot or not really do anything at all.

Kind of hilarious in the Blade mirror, name Jace and play him for UU, whee.

[Lt. Quattro]

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/dgm/tiwoirwiixix/u1gpj8j2ko_EN.jpg

Voice of Resurgence :w::g:
Creature - Elemental (M)
Whenever an opponent casts a spell on your turn or when ~ dies, put a green and white Elemental creature token into play with "This creature's power and toughness are each equal to the number of creatures you control."
2/2

Okay, so this thing looks kinda nutty. I'm already itching to try it in Maverick, even, since he's already a solid cheap bear (like most of the stuff in the deck) that chumps and likely gets bigger and/or makes other dudes when your opponent goes Brainstorm on your turn. Has a problem with Swords (if they play it on their turn) but I'd gladly have them Swords it over KotR any day.

Why play a bear in maverick that does nothing? Opponents can easily play around its only useful ability, and they are never going to swords this over knight of the reliquary when all this thing does is swing for 2 while the knight is utility + a fatty.

Verdict: It Sucks.

[Darkenslight]

Kind of hilarious in the Blade mirror, name Jace and play him for UU, whee.

I much prefer a Turn 4 Karn, Liberated or Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker myself.

[Arsenal]

Been hearing some talk about modern in the SB for mirror matches with UWR flash-style decks. I'm even interested to see how it'll fare in standard. It looks like a neat little card that could either do a lot or not really do anything at all.

Tapping 4 mana in the UWR mirror is a risky proposition. Not sure if he's better than any of the other powerful 4cc spells available to UWR.

[TsumiBand]

Why play a bear in maverick that does nothing? Opponents can easily play around its only useful ability, and they are never going to swords this over knight of the reliquary when all this thing does is swing for 2 while the knight is utility + a fatty.

Verdict: It Sucks.

I think I agree. Consider Grand Abolisher which nobody plays; it seems like in general, just turning off their spells during your turn is better than getting tokens. When is Voice of Resurgence honestly a better GSZ target than, like, Gaddock Teeg or even Qasali Pridemage? I'm not sold on it.

[crow_mw]

I think if anything, Voice of Resurgence competes for a slot with something like Strangleroot Geist. Sure, no haste sucks, but it doesn't require double green and additionally it comes with it's disruptive effect.

[Darkenslight]

Clearly unplayable, but comical card:

Goblin Test Pilot :1::u::r:
Creature - Goblin Wizard
Flying
:tap:: Goblin Test Pilot deals 2 damage to target creature or player chosen at random.
0/2

[Koby]

I would be willing to support this movement:

R&D Paycheck :w::u::b::r::g:
For each Red "at random" card printed, R&D's next month' paycheck becomes:
"Roll 2d1000 and flip a coin. If you win, an R&D member chosen at random gains that amount in dollars. If you lose, the entire R&D team loses the next paycheck."

[Tylert]

Clearly unplayable, but comical card:

Goblin Test Pilot :1::u::r:
Creature - Goblin Wizard
Flying
:tap:: Goblin Test Pilot deals 2 damage to target creature or player chosen at random.
0/2

Doh... really unplayable card. can we at least bounce it back to our hand if he targets himself with his capacity?

[AngryTroll]

I would be willing to support this movement:

R&D Paycheck :w::u::b::r::g:
For each Red "at random" card printed, R&D's next month' paycheck becomes:
"Roll 2d1000 and flip a coin. If you win, an R&D member chosen at random gains that amount in dollars. If you lose, the entire R&D team loses the next paycheck."

The Goblin Test Pilot and Ral Zarek's ultimate (flip five coins, take an extra turn for each flip you win) are both pretty cool. I like it.

[Koby]

The Goblin Test Pilot and Ral Zarek's ultimate (flip five coins, take an extra turn for each flip you win) are both pretty cool. I like it.

I have no problem with Ral Zarek's ultimate (in fact, I think it's a good balance between random and power level). You know the effect with absolute certainty, and are just banking on 5 coin flips to obtain it. Average yield 2.5 free turns.

Goblin Test Pilot on the other hand, offers a random effect with no certainty as to the result. It could shock you. It could kill itself. It could shock a 3 toughness creature. It could get lucky and shock the target you intend.

At its best, it has a X-2/X chance of being beneficial.

[Aggro_zombies]

I think I agree. Consider Grand Abolisher which nobody plays; it seems like in general, just turning off their spells during your turn is better than getting tokens. When is Voice of Resurgence honestly a better GSZ target than, like, Gaddock Teeg or even Qasali Pridemage? I'm not sold on it.
It's also worth noting that Eyes of the Wisent is a card that (a) makes tokens of guaranteed size, (b) is difficult for most decks to remove once it resolves, and (c) has never seen any play whatsoever.

The new dude is pretty terrible. He helps you in matchups where you were already good (blue tempo or aggro control decks) and is The Goggles in the matchups where you need the help (combo).

EDIT: Also, that Goblin is amazingly bad even by the standards of "lol were so randum!!!1!!" Izzet cards. I'm honestly kind of surprised that it can hit literally anything - would it have killed them to make it only hit something of the opponent's at random?

[joven]

It's also worth noting that Eyes of the Wisent is a card that (a) makes tokens of guaranteed size, (b) is difficult for most decks to remove once it resolves, and (c) has never seen any play whatsoever.


Eyes of the Wisent has no body and it is locked in to blue spells.
But I agree, Voice of Resurgence is probably not good enough for Legacy.


Goblin Test Pilot seems like an Unhinged card. It defies all strategy and therefore it's a useless fun card. I wonder how it got into a "serious" expansion set.

[Koby]

Goblin Test Pilot seems like an Unhinged card. It defies all strategy and therefore it's a useless fun card. I wonder how it got into a "serious" expansion set.

Mark Rosewater.

[Aggro_zombies]

Eyes of the Wisent has no body and it is locked in to blue spells.
But I agree, Voice of Resurgence is probably not good enough for Legacy.
Well, I mentioned Eyes because, with the exception of removal, the majority of spells that an opponent could cast on your turn are blue: Brainstorm, counters, and Snapcaster Mage.

Goblin Test Pilot is hilariously bad. Not even bad in a One With Nothing kind of way, where you see the card and go, "Man, what the fuck? There has to be something useful I can do with this." There is actually just nothing useful you can do with Test Pilot ever, at least not until they print a card that reads, "Shuffle up to four cards you own from outside the game into target opponent's deck."

EDIT: The comments on MaRo's posting of the card suggest there are at least four people excited about this card. Mission accomplished, I guess.

[Barook]

Mark Rosewater.
This

Appearently, LD is not fun, but expensive, conditional shit that has a good chance to fuck over yourself is.

[Koby]

Well, I mentioned Eyes because, with the exception of removal, the majority of spells that an opponent could cast on your turn are blue: Brainstorm, counters, and Snapcaster Mage.

Goblin Test Pilot is hilariously bad. Not even bad in a One With Nothing kind of way, where you see the card and go, "Man, what the fuck? There has to be something useful I can do with this." There is actually just nothing useful you can do with Test Pilot ever, at least not until they print a card that reads, "Shuffle up to four cards you own from outside the game into target opponent's deck."

Maybe it belongs in the same deck as Steamflogger Boss?
What if there are Riggers in this set?

Goblin Contraptioner, 1RR
Creature - Goblin Rigger, 2/2
1,T: Assemble a 1/1 Contraption. Whenever a Contraption is dealt damage by a Goblin, redirect that damage to a target of your choice.

[Aggro_zombies]

Maybe it belongs in the same deck as Steamflogger Boss?
Steamflogger Boss is at least a Hill Giant.

[Esper3k]

Maybe it's meant to somewhat combo with Mark of Asylum? And by combo, I'm really stretching the usage of the word.

[Koby]

Maybe it's meant to somewhat combo with Mark of Asylum?

Yesss! Two card combos that sometimes "do nothing", othertimes "shock you", and on a rare occasion, kill an opponent's creature....

Goblin Test Pilot infuriates me on a cellular level. I'm going to send every one I open in boosters directly to WotC HQ demanding a refund for it being an Unhinged card.

[Aggro_zombies]

Yesss! Two card combos that sometimes "do nothing", othertimes "shock you", and on a rare occasion, kill an opponent's creature....

Goblin Test Pilot infuriates me on a cellular level. I'm going to send every one I open in boosters directly to WotC HQ demanding a refund for it being an Unhinged card.
Send them to me. I can burn them to keep my apartment warm in the winter.

[Koby]

Send them to me. I can burn them to keep my apartment warm in the winter.

Ha the jokes' on you! I don't open boosters...

[Barook]

At least they didn't make it rare to piss people even more off.

[DragoFireheart]

At least they didn't make it rare to piss people even more off.

They should make it Mythic Rare just to troll everyone even more.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

What's extra bad about that LOLRANDOM card is that even if it was pushed by development, cards like that are a huge pain in the ass to actually use. Selecting a random target from a large number of possibilities becomes annoying very quickly; try dropping Grip of Chaos in a big EDH game. It's one of those things that Wizards should frown upon, as it slows gameplay due to logistical reasons, but instead they reserve their ire for things like land destruction because some old market research said players didn't like it (Protip: I'd wager players don't like any action taken against them but the survey(s) didn't try and sous this out).

[DragoFireheart]

What's extra bad about that LOLRANDOM card is that even if it was pushed by development, cards like that are a huge pain in the ass to actually use. Selecting a random target from a large number of possibilities becomes annoying very quickly; try dropping Grip of Chaos in a big EDH game. It's one of those things that Wizards should frown upon, as it slows gameplay due to logistical reasons, but instead they reserve their ire for things like land destruction because some old market research said players didn't like it (Protip: I'd wager players don't like any action taken against them but the survey(s) didn't try and sous this out).

But, there's that one player that will run the Goblin in their Grip of Chaos deck! Surely you care about them!? :tongue:

[BlackFlameAshura]

Yesss! Two card combos that sometimes "do nothing", othertimes "shock you", and on a rare occasion, kill an opponent's creature....

Goblin Test Pilot infuriates me on a cellular level. I'm going to send every one I open in boosters directly to WotC HQ demanding a refund for it being an Unhinged card.

And MaRo will thank you for boosting his collection of silly random cards.

[Aggro_zombies]

But, there's that one player that will run the Goblin in their Grip of Chaos deck! Surely you care about them!? :tongue:
Kick them in the 'nads. They deserve it.

[Barook]

They should make it Mythic Rare just to troll everyone even more.
That would make it less likely to appear in a booster. Just taking up a rare slot would be the maximum trolling you could get out of it.

[evanmartyr]

Far//Away seems fairly solid. Precisely identical to existing cards, but +1 colorless mana each, with the potential for some tempo advantage. I'm not 100% sure why you'd want to play this over Jilt though, if you were looking for that sort of thing. I guess it does answer Emrakul sometimes kind of?

[Lord Seth]

My biggest point of confusion about Goblin Test Pilot is whether the person using it gets to choose whether it's a player or creature and then it's decided at random, or whether the "player or creature" is part of the randomization. Because the card is pretty unclear. It really could've used some reminder text to clarify that, or superior wording.

[Darkenslight]

My biggest point of confusion about Goblin Test Pilot is whether the person using it gets to choose whether it's a player or creature and then it's decided at random, or whether the "player or creature" is part of the randomization. Because the card is pretty unclear. It really could've used some reminder text to clarify that, or superior wording.

"Target X chosen at random" where X is "creature or player". You randomise all possible targets, then select one using an RNG method.

[baghdadbob]

Why play a bear in maverick that does nothing? Opponents can easily play around its only useful ability, and they are never going to swords this over knight of the reliquary when all this thing does is swing for 2 while the knight is utility + a fatty.

Verdict: It Sucks.

I agree with you. I would rather play Teeg main board, or even Qausali Pridemage.

[Malchar]

What's extra bad about that LOLRANDOM card is that even if it was pushed by development, cards like that are a huge pain in the ass to actually use. Selecting a random target from a large number of possibilities becomes annoying very quickly; try dropping Grip of Chaos in a big EDH game. It's one of those things that Wizards should frown upon, as it slows gameplay due to logistical reasons, but instead they reserve their ire for things like land destruction because some old market research said players didn't like it (Protip: I'd wager players don't like any action taken against them but the survey(s) didn't try and sous this out).

We can punish Wizards for making goblin test pilot. If everyone plays 4x of them in every deck, eventually every tournament feature match will have a bunch of these on both sides. The matches will be stupidly horrible, and that's probably good enough to make the higher-ups at Wizards drop the gavel on R&D.

[Barook]

We can punish Wizards for making goblin test pilot. If everyone plays 4x of them in every deck, eventually every tournament feature match will have a bunch of these on both sides. The matches will be stupidly horrible, and that's probably good enough to make the higher-ups at Wizards drop the gavel on R&D.

Except Maro would celebrate it as huge success and push even more of those "fun" cards.

[TsumiBand]

Oh my god. It's one fucking card, clearly aimed at a very specific sort of Magic player. Seriously, this was the same block that dropped DRS and Abrupt Decay which are affecting Legacy deckbuilding. Get over it. May as well be pissed that they continue to print Plains and vanilla 2/2s for 2.

If it had been a tourney playable UR card, people would just bitch that it's playable *and* it has Awesome.

[Oiolosse]

I would certainly *not* bitch about a UR playable card. Better Red, even if attached to blue, is encouraged.
I am butt hurt about Ral's ultimate though. Don't get me wrong, I'll have a shit eatin' grin when i flip 5 but I still would've preferred an ultimate with more certainty. Flavor points though, it's actually a very well-designed card.

[(nameless one)]

Clearly unplayable, but comical card:

Goblin Test Pilot :1::u::r:
Creature - Goblin Wizard
Flying
:tap:: Goblin Test Pilot deals 2 damage to target creature or player chosen at random.
0/2

I just realized, this card is Awesome!

[TsumiBand]

Four-mana Mana Drain for any color you want? Any takers?

~Plasm Capture :g::g::u::u:

Instant
Counter target spell. At the beginning of your next precombat main phase, add X mana in any combination of colors to your mana pool, where X is that spell’s converted mana cost.
#91/166

[rufus]

Four-mana Mana Drain for any color you want? Any takers?

~Plasm Capture :g::g::u::u:

Instant
Counter target spell. At the beginning of your next precombat main phase, add X mana in any combination of colors to your mana pool, where X is that spell’s converted mana cost.
#91/166

Maybe you can counter your own Nourishing Shoal for Nourishing Lich 2.0 :wink: . I think the cc is too much for Legacy.

Regarding the test pilot: Is the random select from targets, or from legal targets?

[Darkenslight]

Tajic, Blade of the Legion :2::r::w:
Legendary - Human Soldier
Tajic is indestructible
Batallion - Tajic gets +5/+5 until end of turn.
2/2

Possibility Storm :3::r::r:
Enchantment
Whenever a player casts a spell from his or her hand, that player exiles it, then exiles cards from the top of his or her library until he or she exiles a card that shares a card type with it. That player may cast that card without paying its mana cost. Then he or she puts all cards exiled with Possibility Storm on the bottom of his or her library in a random order.

Mana rocks care called Cluestones. They each cost 3 and tap for either color OR you can sacrifice them for CD, tap and sac to draw a card.

[catmint]

....
Goblin Test Pilot is hilariously bad. Not even bad in a One With Nothing kind of way, where you see the card and go, "Man, what the fuck? There has to be something useful I can do with this." There is actually just nothing useful you can do with Test Pilot ever, at least not until they print a card that reads, "Shuffle up to four cards you own from outside the game into target opponent's deck."
...


:laugh:

I am also really disappointed by that card on different levels. It is a small set with a couple of cycles for all the guilds so there is little space in the set to start with. Wasting a uncommon for this is a big joke (at least you don’t see it that often). In limited there are always cards that don’t make any deck, but you feel because they are just too bad like a 6 mana land destruction spell and not because they are outright stupid. Maybe it makes sense in the end because there are some playable commons which synergize with the goblin like “whenever something happens at random you get a sick effect”.

[kiblast]

I like the new Drain a lot. The thing is that in legacy we don't really have mana sinks (and the possibility of finding them easily) as in Vintage. Maybe UG 12-post can use it. Maybe some drain tendrils build in Vintage an use it as a one of (although the cc is prohibitive in a world of 2 flusterstorm md.) For sure EDH.

[Infinitium]

Possibility Storm looks like it might have been a decent foil for Storm decks (most notably because they can't tutor for answers to it). Shame about the unplayable cc.

[rufus]

Possibility Storm :3::r::r:
Enchantment
Whenever a player casts a spell from his or her hand, that player exiles it, then exiles cards from the top of his or her library until he or she exiles a card that shares a card type with it. That player may cast that card without paying its mana cost. Then he or she puts all cards exiled with Possibility Storm on the bottom of his or her library in a random order.

They're getting better. Zoetic Cavern doesn't actually cause any trouble with this.

[Darkenslight]

Possibility Storm looks like it might have been a decent foil for Storm decks (most notably because they can't tutor for answers to it). Shame about the unplayable cc.

It goes Hilariously in the Future Sight combo deck. Four SDT, Four Helm of Awakening, Manipulate Fate, Grapeshots, this?

Comical Combo, I tells ya. Comical.

[Kuma]

Mana rocks care called Cluestones. They each cost 3 and tap for either color OR you can sacrifice them for CD, tap and sac to draw a card.

Every time I sacrifice one of these I'm going to say in my best Hardly Boys voice, "Ohh, I'm getting a clue!"

[Oiolosse]

Hahaha, i just saw that South Park episode last night, so funny! "My clue's pointing this way!"

[Darkenslight]

Oh, fuck Boros!

Legion's Initiative :r::w:
Enchantment (MR)
Red creatures get +1/+0
White creatures get +0/+1
:r::w:, Exile Legion's Initiative: Exile all creatures you control. At the beginning of the next combat (phase), return those creatures to the battlefield under their owner's control and those creatures gain haste until end of turn.

[Barook]

A Crusade for Boros creatures which can also help against mass removal? Interesting.

Although I can't see the reason why this should be Mythic, aside from being a money grab for Wizards.

The last thing standard needs are more CITP triggers.

[Darkenslight]

A Crusade for Boros creatures which can also help against mass removal? Interesting.

Although I can't see the reason why this should be Mythic, aside from being a money grab for Wizards.

The last thing standard needs are more CITP triggers.

This is gonna be the set's Tarmogoyf, I'm calling it now. Prices are already 150-200% higher than they were over the weekend. And they were at, like, $10.

[TsumiBand]

Eesh, White's really going for a critical mass of playable blink effects, isn't it.

I do find it to be interesting design space, and I like the idea of being able to replay ETB triggers or quickly untapping guys that are good at blocking (though this weird Crusade-y thing doesn't do that exactly).

But man - a WoG hoser after a series of blocks where Wrath effects were overcosted or underpowered, then go ahead and print Supreme Verdict, and then print a strong hoser? Huh what who

[DLifshitz]

This is gonna be the set's Tarmogoyf, I'm calling it now. Prices are already 150-200% higher than they were over the weekend. And they were at, like, $10.

Prices of what? Boros Reckoner? This was spoiled like 3 hours ago.

[rufus]

A Crusade for Boros creatures which can also help against mass removal? Interesting.

Although I can't see the reason why this should be Mythic, aside from being a money grab for Wizards.

The last thing standard needs are more CITP triggers.

Maybe it's mythic rare so that people notice the interaction with Aurelia, the Warleader... It's probably intended to be a Terminus hoser.

[TsumiBand]

Maybe it's mythic rare so that people notice the interaction with Aurelia, the Warleader... It's probably intended to be a Terminus hoser.

Those are both good calls and the interaction with Aurelia is kind of hilarious and kind of awesome. So you get to attack two extra times per enchantment, if I get it right? That's silly.

I guess I feel a little better about it being a Terminus hoser, since I don't like that guy very much. But still, I think the timing is wonky. And nothing says you can't start responding to your own Terminus with exiling this enchantment and then attacking twice in a row on an empty board with Aurelia. LULZOMG.

[HPB_Eggo]

I initially read Initiative as though the enchantment came back into play with all the creatures, and honestly thought it was a very good card.

Then I reread it, and was sad.

That and Zarek being at CMC 4 instead of CMC 3 have been my biggest disappointments so far.

Disregarding all that, still nothing really great for Legacy in this set, at least from what I can tell. Render Silent is decent but not a huge leap above other alternatives, Putrefy reprint is nice, and I'm sure some silly combo deck with Varolz will run around for a short while before people realize it isn't as good as other decks that have to overcome the same problems.

At least there's plenty of decent Modern stuff. Can't complain about Modern becoming a more interesting format.

[Lemnear]

I say it again: this expansion has a completely stupid manacurve ... 5cc+ bombs over and over again. I would not suprised if this set has the highest combined cc since Legends

[Lord Seth]

Legion's Initiative :r::w:
Enchantment (MR)
Red creatures get +1/+0
White creatures get +0/+1
:r::w:, Exile Legion's Initiative: Exile all creatures you control. At the beginning of the next combat (phase), return those creatures to the battlefield under their owner's control and those creatures gain haste until end of turn.Huh. Do you think this might see play in Zoo's sideboard? The deck has a weakness to sweepers, and this makes them a lot more resistant.

[bruizar]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=141402&d=1366084915

Not sure how, but this reeks of potential.

[Malakai]

It's not even overgrown cemetery.

[Infinitium]

Huh. Do you think this might see play in Zoo's sideboard? The deck has a weakness to sweepers, and this makes them a lot more resistant.

Zoo doesn't particulary want to hold back two mana in case the opponent sweeps, much less spend a turn playing this to begin with. Some variant of D&T splashing for this and Recruiter maybe but it really does too little to slowly.

[bruizar]

It's not even overgrown cemetery.

Why the troll post?

overSOLD cemetery doesn't bring back non-creature cards to your hand nor does it bring creatures directly into play.

You could potentially bring back Counterspell back to your hand every turn, given that we have cards such as Relic of Progenitus and Deathrite Shaman that regulate our graveyards. That's something that oversold cemetery won't do for you.

[Darkenslight]

Orzhov Mythic and a badly colored removal spell:

Blood Baron of Vizkopa :3::w::b:
Creature - Vampire
Lifelink, Pro-white AND pro-black
Becomes a 10/10 flyer IF you have 30 or more life AND an opponent has less than 10 life.
4/4

Warped Physique :u::b:
Instant (U)
Target creature gets +X/-X ueot, where X is the number of cards in your hand.

[Gheizen64]

The Orzhov Mythic is amazing. 4/4 Lifelinker with double protection for 5 is really relevant (this is no Sabertooth Nishoba). Imho it will see some fringe play in legacy and wide play in smaller formats.

[catmint]

Let’s look at the Baron in detail for legacy:

Protection from white is great against decks running swords, but you surely don't want him against Stoneblade since any 4cmc walker has a much bigger impact. You also don’t want him against Maverick, Junk or Death and Taxes (funny how you have to mention it now) , since he is still trumped by all their mothers, knights into maze and other tricks, so the pro white part is really not important.

Pro black is actually just important versus dismember since he won’t be killed by the other targeted black removal spells (Disfigure/Abrupt Decay) anyway and there are no relevant black creatures, so besides randomness like the gate where you face nighthawk and obliterator you basically only have “protection from dismember” or the random bad build running ghastly demise or go for the throat.

His static ability is pretty irrelevant, since you don’t need it once you are way ahead.

What comes closest to a legacy deck running a 5cmc creature was miracles a couple of months ago which used Baneslayer angel as a lategame trump versus delver decks. So besides being a different deck nowadays not needing Baneslayer and not having access to black mana, Baneslayer is still better for miracles since it is way better on the defense against green creatures (especially Goyf which cannot be blocked by Baron) and has protection from lightning bolt.

Other possible decks in these colors:
Junk: Does not solve any existing Problems and is way above curve.
BW Stoneblade: Does not solve any existing Problems and is way above curve.

So unfortunately I don’t think he will even see the slightest of fringe play. 

[Gheizen64]

Baneslayer don't have protection from bolts, just saying.

[Final Fortune]

Orzhov Mythic and a badly colored removal spell:

Blood Baron of Vizkopa :3::w::b:
Creature - Vampire
Lifelink, Pro-white AND pro-black
Becomes a 10/10 flyer IF you have 30 or more life AND an opponent has less than 10 life.
4/4

Warped Physique :u::b:
Instant (U)
Target creature gets +X/-X ueot, where X is the number of cards in your hand.

But the mechanic is interesting, B for +3/-3 to target creature would be equivalent to Lightning Bolt as creature removal, worse than Disfigure as a combat trick or Healing Salve, more conditional player damage than Lightning Bolt when combined with any creature but has synergy with Lifelink, Double Strike and First Strike. It's so simple it's almost curious that no one has tried it as a point of design before.

[joven]

Deadbridge Chant is neat, but its a 6 cc card that does random things. Although you always get a card (if you wait a turn till your next upkeep), it might be hard to build around it to get some strategic value out of it.
Cool is that it can bring back instant and sorceries you just cast, even repeatedly (if you're lucky).

[lyracian]

Let’s look at the Baron in detail for legacy:
His static ability is pretty irrelevant, since you don’t need it once you are way ahead.
So unfortunately I don’t think he will even see the slightest of fringe play.
I agree with your conclusions; but I think that is mostly due to lack of flying rather than the protections.
Baneslayer Angel can get Dismembered or go farming so both protections are nice; it is the 5 power and low flyer count in many decks that make Baneslayer stand out as a good sideboard option.

[rufus]

No love for Nivix Cyclops for spell pump silliness:
Nivix Cyclops/Wee Dragonauts/Kiln Fiend+Gitaxian Probe/Manamorphose, Brainstorm/Ponder, and Assault Strobe/Psychotic Fury

[kombatkiwi]

I agree with your conclusions; but I think that is mostly due to lack of flying rather than the protections.
Baneslayer Angel can get Dismembered or go farming so both protections are nice; it is the 5 power and low flyer count in many decks that make Baneslayer stand out as a good sideboard option.

Yeah a few decks have been playing SB baneslayers IIRC
I'm sure (apart from the casting cost) that this would be strictly better if it had flying from the get-go, as first strike in the air isn't too big of a deal and neither is the difference between 4/4 and 5/5, and prob/prow is big game, but as-is the fact that it can't fly over a goyf or similar creature in its initial state probably means that it won't see much play over BSA, if any.

[Mr. Safety]

Any thoughts on the cards with a definite impact on legacy yet? Beck/Call, Sin Collector, and the split card that does shatter/demystify for 3 mana all seem playable.

[Offler]

Four-mana Mana Drain for any color you want? Any takers?

~Plasm Capture :g::g::u::u:

Instant
Counter target spell. At the beginning of your next precombat main phase, add X mana in any combination of colors to your mana pool, where X is that spell’s converted mana cost.
#91/166

Looks interesting for Commander decks. The way how it fixes color is really impressive. But yeah... Its simply Mana Drain with much higher manacost. Running GU Combo Elves could be fun with it...

[frogczar]

So far, I see very little that will impact Legacy. Much like Gatecrash...

[Esper3k]

I say it again: this expansion has a completely stupid manacurve ... 5cc+ bombs over and over again. I would not suprised if this set has the highest combined cc since Legends

Rise of the Eldrazi would like to have a word with you! :)

[HPB_Eggo]

Any thoughts on the cards with a definite impact on legacy yet? Beck/Call, Sin Collector, and the split card that does shatter/demystify for 3 mana all seem playable.

You're looking at pretty much just Wear/Tear so far, IMO.

Some honorable mentions...

Varolz, Deadbridge Chant, and Progenitor Mimic will all probably spawn subsets of combo decks. They will all be pretty bad.

Blood Scrivener and Showstopper might transform Zombie Bombardment into a much, much better deck.

Nivix Cyclops might be just enough to put a specific super-aggressive UR deck over the edge into being not terrible.

Legion's Initiative is good but not great. Doesn't fit really well into anything as of the moment.

Advent of the Wurm is a 5/5 for 4 at instant speed. If it was a 4/4 for 3 at instant speed would probably be much better.

Beck/Call as psuedo-glimpse 5-8 for a UG variant of combo Elves might matter a lot, and might not matter at all.

Renegade Krasis, Sin Collector, and Voice of Resurgence could all also see some fringe play, either in current decks or decks somehow built around them - looking in particular at Renegade Krasis with that statement.

[Lemnear]

Rise of the Eldrazi would like to have a word with you! :)

Except the Eldrazi themselves the set's curve was pretty normal unlike Dragon's Maze so far

[bruizar]

stuffz

I see 3 playable split cards and 2/3 playable cards in the set already.

[HPB_Eggo]

I see 3 playable split cards and 2/3 playable cards in the set already.

Playable cards and those that actually impact a format are not the same thing.

Render Silent, for instance, is definitely playable. It is not a bad card. On the other hand, it will neither allow the construction of a new sort of deck, vastly increase the potential of a currently existing deck, or provide some superior general/specific hate that a color or deck was lacking as of the moment. Hence, very little impact.

Wear/Tear will have impact simply because of the efficiency for SB slots.

Beck/Call, Blood Scrivener, Showstopper, and Nivix Cyclops are other solid bets for cards that will have some impact on Legacy. All the others in the honorable mentions section are a good deal further away from doing anything important when they are introduced.

[TsumiBand]

Between Boros Charm's indestructible and Legion Initiative's RFTFG effect, RW aggro decks have a lot of ways to be resilient on the board. Wrath? Charm. Terminus? Exile Legion. Random junk? Between Charm and Legion's Init, probably answered. Doesn't do a thing to the combo matchup, but then again Thalia is still a card. The classic problem with White Weenie based beatdown is that it is always such a metagame deck, because it relies on protection Knights or hatebears to specifically foil a certain kind of strategy. Cards like Boros Charm and Legion's Init offer blanket answers to a ton of different stupid shit; sound familiar? Pay UU, address target issue? Pay WR, address target issue. Seems not terrible.

Anyway, I didn't feel this good about Gatecrash half-way into the set spoiler, and that's right about where we're at now with DGM, and I don't necessarily see anything major but I think there's enough stuff worth dicking around with. The aforementioned Boros Charm/Legion Init seems like a more robust anti-disruption package for aggro-control outside of Islands and Force/Daze, so at least for my part I'll be proxying up some jank.

I don't think Nivix Cyclops suddenly makes WeeDragonauts a deck, but maybe. I do gush a bit over Kiln Fiend and the UR weird that does the same thing but way less so, so maybe. But I also think that deck is secretly just a Burn deck with Blue in it, and it just pushes you back into Delver territory.

I will play Savageborn Hydra in EDH and it will always have haste and trample and motherfuckers will hate me. Or, I'll just die, whatever.

Beck is a real card. I don't care about Call, though I could see an Elf deck Fusing the spell just because it can, and drawing a fuckbillion cards. But Beck will be in decks, at least for a little while.

Wear // Tear on its face is just a more versatile Disenchant that will occasionally net you card advantage.

Actually a lot of these split cards are really nuts in Limited.

I don't know why people keep talking about Showstopper, it doesn't hit players. Does it really give ZomBardment that much more reach?

[bruizar]

Playable cards and those that actually impact a format are not the same thing.

Render Silent, for instance, is definitely playable. It is not a bad card. On the other hand, it will neither allow the construction of a new sort of deck, vastly increase the potential of a currently existing deck, or provide some superior general/specific hate that a color or deck was lacking as of the moment. Hence, very little impact.

Wear/Tear will have impact simply because of the efficiency for SB slots.

Beck/Call, Blood Scrivener, Showstopper, and Nivix Cyclops are other solid bets for cards that will have some impact on Legacy. All the others in the honorable mentions section are a good deal further away from doing anything important when they are introduced.

About wear//tear... Disenchant kills artifact or enchantment and doesn't even require red. How is that going to 'forever change the shape of eternal magic? lol...

Ral Zarek can provide some hope for a future Stasis deck. The green version was tried and tested, that didn't work. So if there's one card, it's Ral Zarek, same way Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas gave birth to UB planeswalkers.

You missed Far//Away and Turn//Burn as playable split cards. There are a lot of cards that are good in this set. Format breakers like Deathrite Shaman? Thank god no.

[HPB_Eggo]

About wear//tear... Disenchant kills artifact or enchantment and doesn't even require red. How is that going to 'forever change the shape of eternal magic? lol...

Wear/Tear is not going to do that. There isn't a single format warping card that has been revealed as of the moment.

Wear/Tear is, however, Hull Breach in different colors. Considering Hull Breach was one of several staple SB cards in Aggro Loam back when it was good - and was one of the reasons it didn't get thrashed by many decks at the time - I would consider this something that will be around and doing things for a long time.

Beyond that, most of the other possible impact cards as of the moment are for fringe decks, a la Zarek for Stasis - something I hadn't though about, so I'd be putting him up there along with things like Nivix and Scrivener.


You missed Far//Away and Turn//Burn as playable split cards.

They're both playable but will have little to no impact. People will realize pretty fast that there are already better ways to gain CA with the same effects and the same or less CMC.


I don't know why people keep talking about Showstopper, it doesn't hit players. Does it really give ZomBardment that much more reach?

Will it necessarily see play? I don't know. Does it add a ton of reach against any opponent that runs creatures? Absolutely.

It's really a question of how many decks it helps out against and if you need the help. Considering I haven't played ZomBardment for more than a year, I don't really have the knowledge to comment on matchups without at least a little testing. My gut feeling is that Scrivener will have much more impact on the deck, but I'm not discounting Showstopper.

[Barook]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=141426&d=1366139771

Anti-brainstorm tech sounds always sexy. But at 4 mana and being blue (although it should hose blue)? Not so much.

I wish it would cost 3 mana. At 4 mana, it competes with Jace.

[dunk]

Yeah. Very cool idea but 2 mana too expensive to hose anything. I guess it's an anti - Revelation card for t2.

[TsumiBand]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=141426&d=1366139771

Anti-brainstorm tech sounds always sexy. But at 4 mana and being blue (although it should hose blue)? Not so much.

I wish it would cost 3 mana. At 4 mana, it competes with Jace.

Ergh, yeah. Another one of those, "Aw shucks, but it messes with cards, and cards are information, and welp that's Blue's thing!" cards. Bugger.

[HPB_Eggo]

Could be SB tech for the Stoneblade mirror as a one or two-of.

Outside of that, it's cool but comes down too late to do more than comparable cards, i.e. Jayce. Unless someone can think of any UB decks looking to SB in something pretty much only for use against control and certain combo decks.

Actually, thinking about it, this card is pretty awesome against combo, you'd just have to get it down before they one somehow. Probably a silly thought, but sometimes you just can't tell.

[Zinch]

This dude in response to an opponent's brainstorm is a +5 cards for you!! :eek:

Rules question: what happens if both you and your opponent have one of this rogues in play? It's an infinite loop and the game is a draw?

[Nihil Credo]

I never thought we would see the Chains of Mephistopheles condition in a new card's text box.

[Koby]

Rules question: what happens if both you and your opponent have one of this rogues in play? It's an infinite loop and the game is a draw?

No effect. They chance out since each replacement can only be applied to the initial event once.

You draw a card (non-draw step).
Your opponent's Thief steals the draw.
Your Thief steals their draw.
Done.

[SpikeyMikey]

Playable cards and those that actually impact a format are not the same thing.

Render Silent, for instance, is definitely playable. It is not a bad card. On the other hand, it will neither allow the construction of a new sort of deck, vastly increase the potential of a currently existing deck, or provide some superior general/specific hate that a color or deck was lacking as of the moment. Hence, very little impact.

Wear/Tear will have impact simply because of the efficiency for SB slots.

Beck/Call, Blood Scrivener, Showstopper, and Nivix Cyclops are other solid bets for cards that will have some impact on Legacy. All the others in the honorable mentions section are a good deal further away from doing anything important when they are introduced.

As has been pointed out earlier, if you had a home for Wear//Tear, you'd have already been running Hull Breach.

[ahg113]

Although the flavor is Dimir, it's a fail that it doesn't provide answers to decks that previously had none. It comes down too late, unless it's fantasy land and you can cast this turn 1 with a Petal, Dark Rit and appropriate land drop. So maybe TES? :P

The art looks fitting though, and it's impressive that the stats make this a more aggressive creature than to be expected; draw your cards, turn dude sideways.

Valid attempt poor result, like Snappy being blue instead of red.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Wow, that card is a 6 card swing against brianstorm (you draw 3, they return 2, and they lose their BS card). That in itself is consideration to play it in Legacy. And like 80% of decks play 4xBS so you're pretty sure to get a chance.

[ScatmanX]

I guess it's an anti - Revelation card for t2.
Except that it is U, so Revelations decks will splash it, and play it.

I just hate that this card is blue. It could have easily been RB... Thanks for the lack of love Wizards...

[Barook]

It also completely locks out your opponent (aside from naturally drawn instants in the draw phase) in combination with Teferi's Puzzle Box

Anvil of Bogardan works as well.

As far as card advantage goes, it also creates virtual card advantage by turning off all their cantrips.

[Wilkin]

Wow, that card is a 6 card swing against brianstorm (you draw 3, they return 2, and they lose their BS card). That in itself is consideration to play it in Legacy. And like 80% of decks play 4xBS so you're pretty sure to get a chance.

I just read Sylvan Library....lol the errata on the card. Sort of hoses Library too since it is drawing cards but you can choose not too so you can just choose to draw one card and therefore, not see what other cards were there. Still, I would find that rather annoying to deal with since that effectively makes Library useless.

4 mana is quite a bit but it's devastating if it ever happens. As you said it's worth a shot since if you live the dream it's insane. Here are some cards it effects....
Brainstorm.
Ponder.
Preordain
Glimpse of Nature
Elvish Visionary
Sword of Fire and Ice trigger
Griselbrand

[Fuzzy]

Bah, to late.

[TorpidNinja]

I've seen a lot of people complaining that they don't like the wording of this card. I feel there's likely a larger rules reason for the wording, but - playing devil's advocate for a moment - what prevents the following wording:

If an opponent would draw a card from a spell or ability, instead that player skips that draw and you draw a card.

[Barook]

4 mana is quite a bit but it's devastating if it ever happens. As you said it's worth a shot since if you live the dream it's insane. Here are some cards it effects....
Brainstorm.
Ponder.
Preordain
Glimpse of Nature
Elvish Visionary
Sword of Fire and Ice trigger
Griselbrand
Add Jace and SDT to that list.

[Megadeus]

I wish it were 3 mana and a 2/1 or something...

[Tao]

For T2 the effect is awesome. Everything that hates on Revelation is much needed, the card is quite oppressive to deck building - either play it or play to beat it. It is a Plagiarize on legs so they kept it blue but I would also have much rather seen it nonblue.

I could see it being Legacy playable, maybe as a 1 or 2 off in the SB to mise some wins.

[rufus]

I just read Sylvan Library....lol the errata on the card. Sort of hoses Library too since it is drawing cards but you can choose not too so you can just choose to draw one card and therefore, not see what other cards were there. Still, I would find that rather annoying to deal with since that effectively makes Library useless.

4 mana is quite a bit but it's devastating if it ever happens. As you said it's worth a shot since if you live the dream it's insane. Here are some cards it effects....
...



Time Spiral
Diminishing Returns
Winds of Change
Whispering Madness
Reforge the Soul

[Koby]

This card is a wonderful wonderful target for Whispering Madness in, well pretty much every format possible!

(Diabolic laughter ensues)

[rufus]

...
4 mana is quite a bit but it's devastating if it ever happens. As you said it's worth a shot since if you live the dream it's insane. Here are some cards it effects....
...


Cephalid Coliseum
Compulsive Research
Careful Consideration
Burning Inquiry
Sensation Gorger
Urza's Guilt

[PirateKing]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=141426&d=1366139771

It sounds like it's worded to only effect multiple draws during the draw step, like Howling Mine effects, but not Brainstorm or anything that happens in the upkeep or main phase. Unless I'm totally off.

[Koby]

It sounds like it's worded to only effect multiple draws during the draw step, like Howling Mine effects, but not Brainstorm or anything that happens in the upkeep or main phase. Unless I'm totally off.

Nope, definitely hits all cards "except the first one drawn in the draw step". This includes Sylvan Library trigger as well as Brainstorm and Jace.

[Star|Scream]

It sounds like it's worded to only effect multiple draws during the draw step, like Howling Mine effects, but not Brainstorm or anything that happens in the upkeep or main phase. Unless I'm totally off.

You're totally off.

[Arsenal]

I could see it being Legacy playable, maybe as a 1 or 2 off in the SB to mise some wins.

Seems not terrible in the Esperblade mirror as a 1-of SB card; some Esperblade players run a 1-of Elspeth 1.0 in their board for the mirror and control matchups, Notion Thief could take that slot and wreck face if he even gets one "in response to your +0 Jace activation, Flash Notion Thief?"

[Barook]

It sounds like it's worded to only effect multiple draws during the draw step, like Howling Mine effects, but not Brainstorm or anything that happens in the upkeep or main phase. Unless I'm totally off.

It's pretty much the same wording as Chains, i.e. raping Brainstorms.

So 3 draws for you while they lose BS and up to 2 other cards.

Might be decent in control matchups.

[Lord Seth]

Notion Thief has a big leg up on Chains of Mephistopheles in that it doesn't affect its owner, so it can actually be played in decks that run Brainstorm (whereas Chains is limited to decks that don't really have any draw effects). Plus its Flash ability can take people by surprise. On the downside, it costs more and is more specific in its color requirements. I wouldn't be surprised if it saw some play in Legacy, though.

It'll definitely be a big player in Standard though, as an anti-control card. Shuts down Sphinx's Revelation hard, though it'll likely be played mostly in control decks in the mirror (UBx is mostly used in control decks)

[(nameless one)]

So if you respond with it on a Brainstorm, you draw three cards right?

[HPB_Eggo]

So if you respond with it on a Brainstorm, you draw three cards right?

Yes.

[menace13]

This set is a EDH cluster F$%k. Most of the cards spoiled so far are all above the cmc limit of Legacy.

[joven]

This set is a EDH cluster F$%k. Most of the cards spoiled so far are all above the cmc limit of Legacy.

That's because "the cmc limit of Legacy" is too low and not because the set is bad.

[HPB_Eggo]

That's because "the cmc limit of Legacy" is too low and not because the set is bad.

Your opinion of the casting cost 'limit' doesn't really impact the fact that the set does not, on a whole, contain a whole lot of hugely impactful cards for Legacy as it is played right now.

Does that make it bad? No. Does that make it bad for Legacy, from a card quality perspective? Absolutely.

[Nihil Credo]

I've seen a lot of people complaining that they don't like the wording of this card. I feel there's likely a larger rules reason for the wording, but - playing devil's advocate for a moment - what prevents the following wording:

If an opponent would draw a card from a spell or ability, instead that player skips that draw and you draw a card.

I think it would have to follow Loxodon Smiter's template, but yeah, I can't come up with a situation where that wouldn't work just as well. Maybe they figured new players would have an easier time if it was spelled out, even in an ugly way.

[Lemnear]

Yay, after the cycle of 4cc common Gatekeepers we get a cycle of 6cc common creatures! Awesome spoiler /rant

With about 50% of the set spoilered i'm already convinced that Alexis should never ever again given the position as lead designer for her time at WotC

[SpikeyMikey]

Yay, after the cycle of 4cc common Gatekeepers we get a cycle of 6cc common creatures! Awesome spoiler /rant

With about 50% of the set spoilered i'm already convinced that Alexis should never ever again given the position as lead designer for her time at WotC

I dunno. With the first 50 spoilers or so, i was disappointed with the set. At this point, I think it seems fine. I don't like the manafacts, but I won't like any manafacts that Wizards prints. 3 mana is simply too much to be useful for anything outside of limited and even there, with a block this aggressive, they're pretty shitty. Ral Zarek definitely makes me happy.

I think the only real play that Notion Thief is going to see is as a board card for the Stoneblade mirror, but it's pretty amazing there. You tap out for Jace and Brainstorm, I steal your 3 cards, put you 2 cards down in hand, then untap and kill your Jace? That's a ridiculous swing and it's going to change the way Esper mirrors play out. Outside of that, though, I can't see the card going anywhere at 4 mana. Too fragile vs. RUG, BUG won't care because it does to every creature they play, combo generally isn't in the hand sculpting phase anymore by the time you can play it... It's basically just good against BUG Landstill and Esper Stoneblade, i.e. decks with few threats that run both Brainstorm and Jace.

Outside of that, I don't think there's much in the way of Legacy playables, but I'm ok with that. I mean really, how can you bitch about this set not having anything when RTR had so much? This is an eternal format. Most of the movement of the metagame comes from decks shifting to reposition themselves, not from new cards splitting the format in half. I mean, you have 20,000 cards to play with and you expect a set of 160 cards should have more than 1 card that breaks the plane of playable for the format? Greedy, much? I'm perfectly happy with Legacy only seeing 2-4 cards a year with any impact. More than that is too much and is irritating.

[phazonmutant]

I think it would have to follow Loxodon Smiter's template, but yeah, I can't come up with a situation where that wouldn't work just as well. Maybe they figured new players would have an easier time if it was spelled out, even in an ugly way.

The only thing I can think of are replacement effects that cause you to draw cards. For example, Lich replaces gaining life with drawing cards - neither a spell nor ability that a player controls. It is a continuous ability, but the replacement effect itself has no concept of controller. It does seems unclear though. I'm honestly not sure if the analogous Chains of Mephistopheles replacing a draw with discard then draw allows you to put Loxodon Smiter on the battlefield.

[Lemnear]

I'm perfectly happy with Legacy only seeing 2-4 cards a year with any impact. More than that is too much and is irritating.

2-4 cards per year with ANY impact, would cause a totally stagnant metagame. Most sets have about 3 cards in that category but I can't spot those in this set atm.

[sdematt]

Like I get that the card exists and is blue, but why? If you're trying to hose them, just make it black, and attach a loss-life trigger to you drawing the cards. Done deal.


-Matt

[bruizar]

because its a dimir thing to do, and dimir is blue and black. This is ravnica block remember?

[majikal]

2-4 cards per year with ANY impact, would cause a totally stagnant metagame. Most sets have about 3 cards in that category but I can't spot those in this set atm.
Renounce the Guilds (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=141157&d=1365534477) will likely see play in sideboards to deal with Progenitus.

Blood Scrivener (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=141223&d=1365653080) will likely be an all-star in Zombies (which, contrary to popular belief, is a real deck).

Notion Thief (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=141426&d=1366139771) will see play in every control sideboard that supports those colors, and maybe a couple of maindeck slots if the meta shifts toward hard control.

Sin Collector (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=141138&d=1365480696) is really fucking good, and I would be astonished if it doesn't see play somewhere.

Beck//Call (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=141076&d=1365394219) may spawn a new breed of Elf Combo deck, or at the very least add a couple of extra Glimpses to existing decks.

Wear//Tear (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=141082&d=1365395666) is great value in colors that needed it.

Lastly (for now anyway) I will laugh so hard if this guy makes Dreadnoughts a thing again. (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=141221&d=1365653080)

That new Mana Drain might make a splash in some kind of ramp deck. The effect is busted enough to make people want to make it work anyway. Or they might just unban actual mana drain since they seem to be okay with that kind of effect again. Time will tell. *shrug*

[Lemnear]

because its a dimir thing to do, and dimir is blue and black. This is ravnica block remember?

Still a questionable decision to make a Brainstorm/Jace hosser in blue and not exclusive black or red.

The thief in BB - 1/1 would have been amazing for the format

[bruizar]

Still a questionable decision to make a Brainstorm/Jace hosser in blue and not exclusive black or red.

The thief in BB - 1/1 would have been amazing for the format

That would have killed the iconic appeal of chains of mephistopheles by completely outmoding it. People don't want to see their ancient cards outmoded and I think WotC is well aware of that.

Now, I do agree that red should have been given this ability. We already have Fortune Thief, so why not this too? Thieves aren't very Izzet or Rakdos though, so how would you make that fit with the guilds?

[lyracian]

2-4 cards per year with ANY impact, would cause a totally stagnant metagame. Most sets have about 3 cards in that category but I can't spot those in this set atm.Apart from Core sets and Scars I can think of 2-4 cards that have impacted Legacy for all the sets since Zendikar. I am sure previous sets will have similar (Knight and Progenitus for Alara) but I have not the time to look back at those set.

Zendikar
Five Enemy Fetchlands - Eternal staples
Iona, Shield of Emeria - Key Reanimator Target
Goblin Guide - Eternal staple in Burn and Red Tempo decks
Bloodghast - Fringe Playable (Pox, Zombardment)

Worldawake
Jace the Mind Sculptor - THE 4 Drop for control and banned everywhere but Eternal formats
Stoneforge Mystic - Esper Blade
Abyssal Persecutor - Suicide Black got a boost with "the Gate"

Rise of the Eldrai
Inquisition of Kozilek - Eternal staple Black Discard
Emrakal and other Eldrai - Sneak Attack; Shallow Grave or just Ramp
Linvala, Keeper of Silence - Sideboard card
Vengevine - Got Survival Banned

Scars of Mirrodin
Mox Opal - For Affinity/Tezzerate Decks
Wurmcoil Engine - Sees Fringe play

Mirrodin Besieged
- Green Sun's Zenith - made Maverick a Tier 1 deck
- Thrun, the Last Troll - Anti-Control Creature; Fringe playable
- Sword of Fest and Famine - eternal staple

New Phyrexia
- Mental Misstep - Warped for format so much it got Banned
- Surgical Extraction - eternal staple in so many sideboards
- Dismember - eternal staple;

M12 - Core sets seem rather weak...
- Phantasmal Image - Legend Killer, great sideboard choice

Innistrad
- Delver of Secrets - This blue one drop
- Snapcaster mage - eternal staple
- Liliana of the Veil - eternal staple
- Past in Flames - Bonus for Combo decks
- Geist of Saint Traft - Hexproof beast, Blouses deck

Dark Ascension
- Lingering Souls - this card made Esper Stoneblade
- Thalia' Guardian of Thraben - non blue decks best card choice to fight combo

Avancyn Restored
- Cavern of Souls - Eternal staple for creatures decks; Massive boost for Goblins
- Entreat the Angels - Eternal staple in control decks
- Girselbrand - some peoples still want this card banned...
- Terminus - Landstil decks upgrade to Miracles

M13
- Master of Pearl Trident - New card for Merfolk deck
- Omniscience - Omnishow decks appear thanks to this card
- Krenko - Fringe card for Goblins deck

Return to Ravnica
- Abrupt Decay - Eternal staple; BUG come back into vogue
- Deathrite Shaman - Eternal staple; together with Decay made Jund into a Tier 1 Legacy deck
- Supreme Verdict - Eternal staple
- Detention Sphere - Fringe Playable as an improved O-Ring
- Rest in Peace - More Gravehate and Helm Combo became viable.

[Gheizen64]

I think people are underestimating the cards. This is a SB card that in the right matchups (see: against jace and or brainstorm, so a lot of them) it's a 5+ cards advantage swing for 4 at instant speed (WHY IT'S BLUE ZZZ, can black have good cards plox), and hose SnT Griselbrand pretty nicely too. It will see play, Jace and brainstorms and Griselbrands are cards in this format. It's nice to see how it don't hose the non blue decks of the format (maverick, SnT, Jund etc...), while being blue itself lol.

I would have loved it to be monoblack, would've been a fantastic hoser.

EDIT: i also don't think the 4cmc is really an issue. Think of it as a SB material FoF that draw 5 instead of 3 AND come with a body attached to it. So it's basically a 4 mana, 4+ card advantage spell that make a dude. Really this is one of the strongest control hoser i've ever seen.

[Lemnear]

Apart from Core sets and Scars I can think of 2-4 cards that have impacted Legacy for all the sets since Zendikar. I am sure previous sets will have similar (Knight and Progenitus for Alara) but I have not the time to look back at those set.

Zendikar
Five Enemy Fetchlands - Eternal staples
Iona, Shield of Emeria - Key Reanimator Target
Goblin Guide - Eternal staple in Burn and Red Tempo decks
Bloodghast - Fringe Playable (Pox, Zombardment)

Worldawake
Jace the Mind Sculptor - THE 4 Drop for control and banned everywhere but Eternal formats
Stoneforge Mystic - Esper Blade
Abyssal Persecutor - Suicide Black got a boost with "the Gate"

Rise of the Eldrai
Inquisition of Kozilek - Eternal staple Black Discard
Emrakal and other Eldrai - Sneak Attack; Shallow Grave or just Ramp
Linvala, Keeper of Silence - Sideboard card
Vengevine - Got Survival Banned

Scars of Mirrodin
Mox Opal - For Affinity/Tezzerate Decks
Wurmcoil Engine - Sees Fringe play

Mirrodin Besieged
- Green Sun's Zenith - made Maverick a Tier 1 deck
- Thrun, the Last Troll - Anti-Control Creature; Fringe playable
- Sword of Fest and Famine - eternal staple

New Phyrexia
- Mental Misstep - Warped for format so much it got Banned
- Surgical Extraction - eternal staple in so many sideboards
- Dismember - eternal staple;

M12 - Core sets seem rather weak...
- Phantasmal Image - Legend Killer, great sideboard choice

Innistrad
- Delver of Secrets - This blue one drop
- Snapcaster mage - eternal staple
- Liliana of the Veil - eternal staple
- Past in Flames - Bonus for Combo decks
- Geist of Saint Traft - Hexproof beast, Blouses deck

Dark Ascension
- Lingering Souls - this card made Esper Stoneblade
- Thalia' Guardian of Thraben - non blue decks best card choice to fight combo

Avancyn Restored
- Cavern of Souls - Eternal staple for creatures decks; Massive boost for Goblins
- Entreat the Angels - Eternal staple in control decks
- Girselbrand - some peoples still want this card banned...
- Terminus - Landstil decks upgrade to Miracles

M13
- Master of Pearl Trident - New card for Merfolk deck
- Omniscience - Omnishow decks appear thanks to this card
- Krenko - Fringe card for Goblins deck

Return to Ravnica
- Abrupt Decay - Eternal staple; BUG come back into vogue
- Deathrite Shaman - Eternal staple; together with Decay made Jund into a Tier 1 Legacy deck
- Supreme Verdict - Eternal staple
- Detention Sphere - Fringe Playable as an improved O-Ring
- Rest in Peace - More Gravehate and Helm Combo became viable.

Thx for all the work to underline my point.

@ N.Thief: Don't affect my Storm Combo ... don't care. If the guy is cast in response to your Brainstorm you can still Bolt, Sword him before the Brainstorm resolves

[Gheizen64]

Thx for all the work to underline my point.

@ N.Thief: Don't affect my Storm Combo ... don't care. If the guy is cast in response to your Brainstorm you can still Bolt, Sword him before the Brainstorm resolves

Well usually you brainstorm in search for answers, so you're not exactly against the worst odds.

[Lemnear]

Well usually you brainstorm in search for answers, so you're not exactly against the worst odds.

Indeed. This just rises the question about the value of the card while already sitting in the driver's seat.

[Gheizen64]

Thinking a bit more about it, i seriously think this card will be big. This is an hoser for 3 of the best cards of the format: Grizz, BS and Jace. Casually killing cantrips is also pretty decent.
Also i love the design because it's a super strong hoser for an effect that was rarely hosed this efficiently before, and while it will be played, it will never be a staple because of its more reactive nature of a card.
Compare to Chains:
- Chains negate draws, this STEAL draws, meaning it will give you positive CA with a single cantrip
- Chains is an enchantment that basically work as a meddling mage for draw effects, this having flash make it more of a counterspell, meaning you'll likely be able to actually benefit from it instead of just being removed. This is why i think the CMC difference isn't relevant, because chains never effectively give you real CA, but only virtual by stopping further spells by being played until they get an answer, while this will give you something to you unless they can remove it in response to him CiP. This is actually a draw spell bomb.
- Chains can't win you the game by itself and is terrible in multiples, this is pretty bad in multiples, but it's still a creature with 3 power that can win you the game realistically fast
- Chains don't have awesome

Now i want

Flaming Scrivener 1R
Creature - Elemental
Whenever a player draw a card, flaming scrivener deal 1 damage to him or her
Yo' moma so fat
2/1

WotC Plz.

[bruizar]

Thinking a bit more about it, i seriously think this card will be big. This is an hoser for 3 of the best cards of the format: Grizz, BS and Jace. Casually killing cantrips is also pretty decent.
Also i love the design because it's a super strong hoser for an effect that was rarely hosed this efficiently before, and while it will be played, it will never be a staple because of its more reactive nature of a card.

@Griselbrand
It doesn't beat Griselbrand at all. SNT costs 3 mana, Notion Thief costs 4. You won't steal anything with it because you'll already be dead but let's for the sake of argument, say that I cast SNT when you've got 4 mana up. I show Griselbrand, I activate its trigger. You play Notion Thief in an attempt to steal my draw 7. I respond to that by drawing 7 more, I draw force of will, counter notion thief, grab my other 7 and kill you anyway.

@Brainstorm / Jace
Super cute if it works, but I might just cast Lingering Souls a couple of times and beat you instead. You know why? Because I cast Inquisition of Kozilek and saw that you're holding Notion Thief for me and I couldn't grab it because it's not Thoughtseize. Next tournament I swap my Inquisitions for Thoughtseize, remove Notion Thief from your hand and just keep Brainstorming and Jace-ing all day every day!

My verdict: People will try, People will fail. It's only reasonable effective at stealing against a cascaded Ancestral Visions, but are you really going to keep 4 mana up against that deck?

[joven]

@Griselbrand
It doesn't beat Griselbrand at all. SNT costs 3 mana, Notion Thief costs 4. You won't steal anything with it because you'll already be dead but let's for the sake of argument, say that I cast SNT when you've got 4 mana up. I show Griselbrand, I activate its trigger. You play Notion Thief in an attempt to steal my draw 7. I respond to that by drawing 7 more, I draw force of will, counter notion thief, grab my other 7 and kill you anyway.


Will Notion Thief not just be put onto battlefield by Show and Tell? ;)
Then the Griselbrand player won't draw cards and Griselbrand could be dealt with by normal creature removal.

[Gheizen64]

@Griselbrand
It doesn't beat Griselbrand at all. SNT costs 3 mana, Notion Thief costs 4. You won't steal anything with it because you'll already be dead but let's for the sake of argument, say that I cast SNT when you've got 4 mana up. I show Griselbrand, I activate its trigger. You play Notion Thief in an attempt to steal my draw 7. I respond to that by drawing 7 more, I draw force of will, counter notion thief, grab my other 7 and kill you anyway.

@Brainstorm / Jace
Super cute if it works, but I might just cast Lingering Souls a couple of times and beat you instead. You know why? Because I cast Inquisition of Kozilek and saw that you're holding Notion Thief for me and I couldn't grab it because it's not Thoughtseize. Next tournament I swap my Inquisitions for Thoughtseize, remove Notion Thief from your hand and just keep Brainstorming and Jace-ing all day every day!

My verdict: People will try, People will fail. It's only reasonable effective at stealing against a cascaded Ancestral Visions, but are you really going to keep 4 mana up against that deck?

Thief is a creature that can enter via SnT if worst came to worst. At that point they have to remove it or can't activate Griselbrand, and they can't use Brainstorm to search for answers to it, either (while you can to find an answer to grisel).

As for your second example, you're just making a best case situations (you having Thief in starting hand, they having inquisition, you not having BS to hide your own Thief etc...), and ignoring the fact that this card is blue so you'll have manipulation and whatsnot.

[Stall_19]

I feel like making a crappy Notion Thief + Winds of Change/Windfall deck.

[bruizar]

Thief is a creature that can enter via SnT if worst came to worst. At that point they have to remove it or can't activate Griselbrand, and they can't use Brainstorm to search for answers to it, either (while you can to find an answer to grisel).

As for your second example, you're just making a best case situations (you having Thief in starting hand, they having inquisition, you not having BS to hide your own Thief etc...), and ignoring the fact that this card is blue so you'll have manipulation and whatsnot.

What answer do I need if I have a 7/7 flying life link creature against your 3/1? SNT'ing a Notion Thief into play against Sneak Show is damn near suicide. Even if you get your answer in 2 / 3 turns, you have only made sure that you did not lose the game yet. And what happens if Emrakul enters the battlefield? It literally does nothing against the decks running griselbrand.

[Gheizen64]

What answer do I need if I have a 7/7 flying life link creature against your 3/1? SNT'ing a Notion Thief into play against Sneak Show is damn near suicide. Even if you get your answer in 2 / 3 turns, you have only made sure that you did not lose the game yet. And what happens if Emrakul enters the battlefield? It literally does nothing against the decks running griselbrand.

You know that you run bounce/removal (and every kind of it kill Griselbrand, bar Abrupt decay and Dismember) and you are playing against a Snt deck which won't swarm you?
If a 7/7 lifelinker were good enough to make SnT T1, SnT would have been banned ages ago. Matter of fact is they're basically accellerating into a bigass beater that can be removed or bounced by everything while you have a card that preclude them from playing cantrips to search for answers and you're playing a blue shell against a fast combo deck that will have invariably less cards than you, and in greatly worse quality because they run accellerators and cantrips they can't play (more than half a deck of dead cards).

Unless they can remove him right away (unlikely as they usually don't run any kind of removal) and you don't have a counter, they basically gave you 3 turns to find an answer to griselbrand during which they can't use cantrips or BS to search protection for him or removal for your creature. 3 turns clocks off SnT are terrible.

Recents SnT from the Strasbourg events:

SnT list play:
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponders
1 Preordain
4 Griselbrand

All of which are basically non-factors once you have a Thief down. He also play 0 removal and/or bounce for your Thief, so if they SnT a Grizzy and you have thief in hand, i'd say you're in a very good position there as they're in topdeck mode and 13 cards in their deck, alongside lands and accellerants are now useless. The rest is counterspells (4 FoW, 1 Fluster, 2 Misdirect, 3 spell pierce). After side it become trickier because he can side blasts (and here awesome is a big problem).
The card isn't an autowin after SnT into grizz if you SnT it in, but it still give you plenty of time to find answers. And if you cast it in response to a Grizz activation the odds are still good because the only 4 relevant cards pre-side here are the Forces.

[Lemnear]

If the main argument for Thief continues to be about CA and battling Jace TMS I will bring Jace Beleren to the table which is not a completely situational 4cc.

The card is good in what it does, no doubt. I just can't find any real justification to run it MB or SB outside of cornercases (in response to a topdecked brainstorm, Omniscience, etc.).

[HPB_Eggo]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=141441&d=1366171415

Might see some play in combo or control? Honestly not sure. The card's effect is definitely good - +1 card, looks at the top four - but the three cost and sorcery speed seem like deal breakers to me.