Force of Will vs. Lion's Eye Diamond

[(nameless one)]

Would it be a fair trade for a playset to a playset?

Which playset would you get trading the other playset?

[AEnesidem]

I think not, while both are around the same price currently (LED being slightly more expensive), one is on the reserved list and the other one is not. LED will keep climbing in price while force has been stable for a long time now and could be reprinted anytime (not expecting it soon though.

I would trade fows away for LED's but not the other way around.

[WorstBandNameEver]

I think not, while both are around the same price currently (LED being slightly more expensive), one is on the reserved list and the other one is not. LED will keep climbing in price while force has been stable for a long time now and could be reprinted anytime (not expecting it soon though.

I would trade fows away for LED's but not the other way around.

I'll second the reserved list vs. not reserved list. LED's won't be reprinted as of now. It's a must have for some decks to really perform. There is also the matter of what you need. If it's short term and you need forces, I guess it's not he end of the world but I would rather be getting LEDs long term.

[mrjumbo03]

Interesting points. But one must take into account the fact that LED is more open to being banned than FOW, as it is more broken. Granted I would still do the trade from FOW -> LED.

[Megadeus]

I recently traded a force straight up for an LED. From the players standpoint, I would be willing to trade away straight up from either side. Both are staples to their respective archetypes. Force is arguably the more versatile card and usable in more decks which is why I would be perfectly fine trading an LED for a force (assuming I am trying to build a deck with forces and I didnt need my LEDs anymore). From a Trader stand point I could definitely see why you would not want to trade your Reserve list Combo Staple for a Force, but RL or Not I dont see force seeing any printing that tanks the price any time soon.

But then again, I also see a lot more copies of Force of Will in peoples biunders than I do LEDs. Therefore it is a bit easier to trade for a Force than it would be an LED regardless of price.

[(nameless one)]

The thing is I'm don't have all the blue staples and I'm way behind if I'm going to catch up. (I'm left with a couple of Modern blue fetches, playset of Flooded Strands and a Merfolk deck)

With LED, I already have Dredge pieces and combo pieces aren't as expensive as blue staples.

Hell, I'm considering trading the Strands (and something) for the LEDs.

[DragoFireheart]

I would never trade Force of Will for Lions Eye Diamond.

[(nameless one)]

I didn't. I got mine by trading a playset of Flooded Strands + EDH jank.

[apple713]

You can't base trades alone on dollar value. You have to think about the purpose of the trade.

If you are playing legacy to win you want the fow's. if you want a cheap deck to mess around with at a local tournament go for leds.

If you are planning to build a collection and you are starting you need the fow's.

I'm my collection I have 16 fow's and 4 LEDs all 20 of the cards are in decks. I'd still probably rather have more fow's.



It's strange you pose this question because I was about to make a post about the reprint of fow. It would probably be ok to reprint in standard and inject into modern. If they reprinted fow it would keep combo decks in check and they wouldn't have to ban every card that poses a threat in modern.

[Megadeus]

You can't base trades alone on dollar value. You have to think about the purpose of the trade.

If you are playing legacy to win you want the fow's. if you want a cheap deck to mess around with at a local tournament go for leds.

If you are planning to build a collection and you are starting you need the fow's.

I'm my collection I have 16 fow's and 4 LEDs all 20 of the cards are in decks. I'd still probably rather have more fow's.



It's strange you pose this question because I was about to make a post about the reprint of fow. It would probably be ok to reprint in standard and inject into modern. If they reprinted fow it would keep combo decks in check and they wouldn't have to ban every card that poses a threat in modern.

Implying that LED decks are decks that you just "mess around with"

[Dark Ritual]

Snap take LED's over FoW. Call me biased since I play almost exclusively storm combo with LED but FoW is very likely going to get reprinted. LED is never going to be reprinted en masse. Sure LED might be banned. But I seriously doubt it, unless they print some card that puts LED way over the top (something that would have to be better than burning wish and infernal tutor is a tall order.) Wouldn't be remotely surprised to see FoW reprinted to put it in modern to fix some of the serious problems that format has.

[KobeBryan]

Snap take LED's over FoW. Call me biased since I play almost exclusively storm combo with LED but FoW is very likely going to get reprinted. LED is never going to be reprinted en masse. Sure LED might be banned. But I seriously doubt it, unless they print some card that puts LED way over the top (something that would have to be better than burning wish and infernal tutor is a tall order.) Wouldn't be remotely surprised to see FoW reprinted to put it in modern to fix some of the serious problems that format has.

How likely is this FOW reprint? Rhetorical question.

The chance of FOW being reprinted is next to Jace the Mindsculptor.

[apple713]

How likely is this FOW reprint? Rhetorical question.

The chance of FOW being reprinted is next to Jace the Mindsculptor.

Your statement could not be more incorrect. Fow has never won a game by itself nor is it any kind of card advantage. In fact it's card disadvantage.

Yes fow should be reprinted. I e left it soon cause of modern. It would have almost no effect on standard.

[Megadeus]

It would be a played card in modern. Standard players would play it because ZOMG THIS CARD IS SO BROKEN IN LEGACYZZZZZZZZZZ... I would be interested to see LED in standard. Just for teh lulz. I guess Reanimator would be busted... Turn 1 Land, LED, crack it, cast unburial rites to get back (Insert ridiculous fatty here)

[phazonmutant]

Snap take LED's over FoW. Call me biased since I play almost exclusively storm combo with LED but FoW is very likely going to get reprinted. LED is never going to be reprinted en masse. Sure LED might be banned. But I seriously doubt it, unless they print some card that puts LED way over the top (something that would have to be better than burning wish and infernal tutor is a tall order.) Wouldn't be remotely surprised to see FoW reprinted to put it in modern to fix some of the serious problems that format has.

I'm pretty sure R&D is still of the opinion that Force is completely overpowered. Honestly, I'm not sure they're wrong - the thought of the Delver decks from last standard season backed up with Force is pretty terrifying. If a U-based combo can exist in Modern, then it would be a Force to be reckoned with.

Also, here's an article where they flat-out said that they won't reprint Force: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/af119
Of course, they said they wouldn't reprint Lightning Bolt either, so nothing's set in stone.

[bruizar]

I guess I'm the only one who would not trade away his FoWs for LEDs. There are no tier 1 strategies that utilize LED in legacy. Dredge and tendrils based decks are too soft to meta-hate.

[Megadeus]

I guess I'm the only one who would not trade away his FoWs for LEDs. There are no tier 1 strategies that utilize LED in legacy. Dredge and tendrils based decks are too soft to meta-hate.

I disagree with this. While you can attempt to hate out a tendrils deck, they actually can fight back with discard/silence... Dredge gets uh... Natures Claim I guess? Force of Will in the same thought process is pretty terrible in a Meta filled with GB decks like Jund.

[Malakai]

Force of Will is a huge problem online. There are some rumors that Wizards is looking at a reverse-redemption plan for an upcoming FTV set, in an attempt to get some more cards online. While I question their conclusion, the point remains that a) Force of Will is a barrier to MTGO, and b) it is not on the reserved list.

That all said, if I could only own one or the other I'd rather have FoW because I can play it in more decks.

[KobeBryan]

Your statement could not be more incorrect. Fow has never won a game by itself nor is it any kind of card advantage. In fact it's card disadvantage.

Yes fow should be reprinted. I e left it soon cause of modern. It would have almost no effect on standard.

wth are you talking about. I'm saying the chance for a force of will reprint is as close to jace. I'm not comparing the two cards. The poster above me said it is very likely for a FOW reprint.

To emphasize, jace being reprinted in standard, in modern masters is nil. The only way for a reprint is FTV or judge promo.

Force of will sees this factor as well. It will not be reprinted in standard, it is not legal in modern masters. The chance of the reprint is similar to jace.

[(nameless one)]

This only proves that reading is tech!

[DragoFireheart]

They said Lightning Bolt wouldn't be reprinted. They reprinted it.
They said they wouldn't reprint Swords to Plowshares. They made a functional reprint: Path to Exile.
They said they wouldn't reprint Force of Will. They'll reprint it and it will be done to help balance out Modern.

[Megadeus]

Path to Exile =/= Swords to plowshares. Sure their exile ability is the same, but their "drawbacks" are much different. In a control deck your opponent gaininglife doesnt matter at all. But them getting a free land may actually change things. Helps them get out of spell pierce range, more mana untapped for them to play more spells per turn that you can deal with. PTE's drawback is much worse

[bruizar]

They said Lightning Bolt wouldn't be reprinted. They reprinted it.
They said they wouldn't reprint Swords to Plowshares. They made a functional reprint: Path to Exile.
They said they wouldn't reprint Force of Will. They'll reprint it and it will be done to help balance out Modern.

That sure scares me. I think that's a valid assessment. It might not be 'force of will' but it will be something that can be played in legacy. Pact of negation is a sign that this will occur.

[Megadeus]

They may try to make a "Fixed" version of Force, but without fast combo being a thing in modern thanks to all of their bannings, who would play it?

[(nameless one)]

They may try to make a "Fixed" version of Force, but without fast combo being a thing in modern thanks to all of their bannings, who would play it?

They already did this with Foil, Thwart, Disrupting Shoal and Pact of Negation. All of these are not as flexible as the original one.

I wish Mental Misstep was legal in Modern. The card isn't that broken in a format without a Brainstorm. It will definitely slow that format down.

[Megadeus]

They already did this with Foil, Thwart, Disrupting Shoal and Pact of Negation. All of these are not as flexible as the original one.

I wish Mental Misstep was legal in Modern. The card isn't that broken in a format without a Brainstorm. It will definitely slow that format down.

MM would be an interesting addition. It isnt like Modern is like Legacy where One drops rule all.

And agreed. Those are all fixed versions and they hardly see play. WOTC wont reprint FoW. They will keep attempting to make fixed versions and they will never actually be good enough.

[nedleeds]

It will definitely slow that format down.

Slow modern down? You think it's too fast? You do know a conditional 3/3 creature with no abilities is banned in that format?

[Megadeus]

But it makes other aggro creatures bad right? :wink:

Therefore it is too good... Goyf definitely doesnt make other 2 drops invalid or anything...

[(nameless one)]

Slow modern down? You think it's too fast? You do know a conditional 3/3 creature with no abilities is banned in that format?

I forgot to add the quotations.

If the DCI thinks Modern is too fast then they should have added MM in the mix in the first place.

[LOurs]

They may try to make a "Fixed" version of Force, but without fast combo being a thing in modern thanks to all of their bannings, who would play it?

I think there is no reason to speak about a "fixed" FoW because FoW doesnt need to be fixed : the card is not broken, drawbacks are concrete (card disadvantage & high hardcast cost) and are enough for what the card is supposed to do. FoW is a fixer for eternal format, it allows to many card not to be banned.
If WotC consider to reprint it, there would be 3 reasons :
- modern needs it (instead of ban any fast combo tool)
- legacy needs it (to break out barrier at entry)
- wotc needs it (cash flow as it would be a best seller, especialy online)
I believe that the third is the most realistic, but I wouldnt hold my breath on it (at all), especialy in paper (online is another debate).

[Megadeus]

I think there is no reason to speak about a "fixed" FoW because FoW doesnt need to be fixed : the card is not broken, drawbacks are concrete (card disadvantage & high hardcast cost) and are enough for what the card is supposed to do. FoW is a fixer for eternal format, it allows to many card not to be banned.
If WotC consider to reprint it, there would be 3 reasons :
- modern needs it (instead of ban any fast combo tool)
- legacy needs it (to break out barrier at entry)
- wotc needs it (cash flow as it would be a best seller, especialy online)
I believe that the third is the most realistic, but I wouldnt hold my breath on it (at all), especialy in paper (online is another debate).

Well that is my thing. It is a very fair card, but WOTC doesnt think so. WHich means if they were to make a :really: FoW legal in modern then it would be way less powerful and terrible (Disrupting Shoal, Pact of Negation)

[nedleeds]

I think they recently "gave" away some FoWs online for some recent draft cycle. "Reprinting" FoW online seems like solid profit, as a database row is quite cheap. They could sell it for $10 and go infinite.

[nedleeds]

But it makes other aggro creatures bad right? :wink:

Therefore it is too good... Goyf definitely doesnt make other 2 drops invalid or anything...

My new format is Forest Bear Eternal. 2/2 with blank text boxes for 2CC and basic lands are legal.

[Lord Seth]

They said Lightning Bolt wouldn't be reprinted. They reprinted it.Where did they say they wouldn't reprint it?


They said they wouldn't reprint Swords to Plowshares. They made a functional reprint: Path to Exile.Path to Exile is not a functional reprint.


They said they wouldn't reprint Force of Will. They'll reprint it and it will be done to help balance out Modern.Your logic here is highly questionable. First you didn't provide a source for the first claim, and the second claim is flat-out wrong. Not to mention that, even assuming those claims you've made are correct, there are cards they said they wouldn't reprint in Standard, and...haven't reprinted in Standard (Standard is really the key point here, not just a reprint in a bonus set). Like Mana Drain.

I don't think Modern does need Force of Will, honestly. But it could definitely use some of the "clones" in the Masques block, like Foil, Misdirection, or even Daze (which is a weaker card in a format where playing the islands again can hit you for 2 damage). Which is why I've repeatedly stated they should have started Modern with Masques...

[Megadeus]

My new format is Forest Bear Eternal. 2/2 with blank text boxes for 2CC and basic lands are legal.

If only Spell Snare were legal... SO GOOD

[DragoFireheart]

Where did they say they wouldn't reprint it?

Path to Exile is not a functional reprint.

Your logic here is highly questionable. First you didn't provide a source for the first claim, and the second claim is flat-out wrong. Not to mention that, even assuming those claims you've made are correct, there are cards they said they wouldn't reprint in Standard, and...haven't reprinted in Standard (Standard is really the key point here, not just a reprint in a bonus set). Like Mana Drain.

I don't think Modern does need Force of Will, honestly. But it could definitely use some of the "clones" in the Masques block, like Foil, Misdirection, or even Daze (which is a weaker card in a format where playing the islands again can hit you for 2 damage). Which is why I've repeatedly stated they should have started Modern with Masques...

Sorry that I didn't reference the post on the previous page. Here's the link in question:

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/af119



Over-the-Top Bombs That Won't Come Back:

Lightning Bolt

The fact that Lightning Bolt does three damage to a player for a single mana is only a small part of what makes the card “too good”; after all, we printed Lava Spike. No, the real issue with the Bolt is that it is a fantastic tempo card in addition to being a way to win the game. Bolt kills somewhere in the range of 57 of the 88 creatures that debuted with it in Alpha, and almost all of them cost more mana—often significantly more—than it does. That's too much for a one-mana card.

Swords to Plowshares

Lightning Bolt may deal with 57/88 of Alpha's creatures, but Swords takes care of 87/88. For. One. Mana. There has never been a better deal for efficient creature removal than this.

...

Force of Will

Force of Will does everything Force Spike does, everything Daze does, and tons more. It has been called the glue that holds Vintage—the most power-laden format in the game—together. Many players probably don't think of FoW as a tempo card, but it does a fine job of that. Check out Nicholas Labarre's Merfolk deck from Pro Tour—Rome. Besides Force of Will, it backs up its weenie horde with other cards from today's discussion, like Force Spike and Man-o'-War. He took this deck to a second place finish at that event, which was defined by the most degenerate Extended deck ever played—Tolarian Academy.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I am currently looking to trade my set of NM Forces for a set of NM Diamonds. I may have to just buy them (one at a time so I can find cool and unique ones!).

-ABC