[Deck] Castlevania (A.K.A. Burg or BUG in a RUG)

[Barbed Blightning]

Before I start priming, I'll explain the name: it comes from a German team of designers, Carsten Linden, Mike Hoffmann, Timo Schünemann and Florian Koch who concocted a list for GP Stasbourg. They named is "Burg"--conveniently both it's color composition and the word for castle in German. A similar idea has been floating around in my group, though I refer to the deck as BUG in a RUG. German Threshold, similar to Canadian Threshold, seems like a proper formal name.

Anyway, here's an idea for you: let's smash Team America and Canadian Threshold together.

As you might guess, there's a universe of possible cards that could be crammed in such a deck. As such, I'll provide a hypothetical list and links to others as well. Think of this deck as less of a list you tweak (Like its progenitors, BUG and RUG) and more like Junk; that is, a goodstuff.dec.

A typical list (updated 8/29/2013)

Creature (14)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Tarmogoyf

Instants (24)
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Spell Pierce

Sorcery (4)
4 Ponder

Land (18)
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga


SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Dread of Night
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Creeping Tar Pit
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 2 Fire Covenant
SB: 1 Compost


Explanation of certain cards:

The Taiga: Though it seems un-intuitive to run a non-island land in a tempo deck, Taiga does a lot of work in color-fixing. With bot a Taiga and Underground Sea in play, any spell in the deck can be cast.

Fire Covenant: It's on par with Maelstrom Pulse, but can wipe out an entire field instead of only redundant threats. Instant speed also allows for combat-step shenanigans.

Only two Abrupt Decays: though the spell is bonkers in Legacy, in this particular deck the card is difficult to cast and easy to find in a pinch due to the abundance of cantrips.

Coverage:

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpstr13/day2#9

Carsten Kotter's "The Triumvirate" of Legacy
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26762_The-Triumvirate.html

[Barbed Blightning]

[Reserved for Future Content]

[(nameless one)]

Isn't this just 4C Deathrite? I'm pretty sure there's already a thread for this.

[Barbed Blightning]

Isn't this just 4C Deathrite? I'm pretty sure there's already a thread for this.

I was under the impression that 4c DRS was WUBG and more control-oriented. This is a tempo or midrange deck.

[lambert101]

Deck looks solid.
12 counters
8 removal
8 beatsticks
4 utility guys
8 cantrips
20 lands

Welcome to legacy its efficiency meets greed

[Ziveeman]

I posted this in both the RUG and 4C Deathrite thread, and I guess now here. I tested this for GP Denver but ultimately decided not to play it. It was solid in testing (and looks pretty similar to the OP list).

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
3 Abrupt Decay

3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest

SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Divert
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Darkblast

Pretty similar to the list you posted. I did run into someone in a Cockatrice match back in December playing almost the exact 60, except replaced Mongoose with Lavamancers. Certainly something to consider.

[phazonmutant]

Tarmogoyf is straight awful. Abrupt Decay is fine, but not worth splashing another color for on its own. What is worth splashing is Deathrite Shaman!

Even if the curve is super low, Deathrite fixes mana, makes Daze better, and helps deploy threats while leaving up Stifle and countermagic. Oh, and also regularly deals 6-8 on his own.

I've been testing a variant of the GP Strasbourg list and made some changes to fit my preferences and meta:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
2 Thought Scour
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Daze
3 Force of Will

4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
4 Wasteland

// Sideboard
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Engineered Plague
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Envelop
1 Flusterstorm
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Force of Will
1 Life from the Loam
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Submerge

It seems pretty greedy to only be playing 3 Force in the main, but I wasn't sure what else to cut to fit in the 2nd Thought Scour. I found that Deathrite + Mongoose really wanted some Thought Scours to play nice together in the non-control matchups where they aren't stocking their graveyard with spells.

I hate the Taiga, Underground Sea, and Bayou. I've wished I had the Bayou when it was an Underground and I wished I had a Badlands when I had the Bayou. I've also been unable to Daze + play a blue spell because I fetched a non-U land. The deck seems to need 3 different color lands to work correctly. It's just a shitty manabase and I'm not sure how to fix it. Fortunately Stifle stops Wasteland ^^.

Other than the manabase, Deathrite is clutch, Abrupt Decay gets me out of jams that Dismember and Chain Lightning don't, and the board cards are nice. I think this has the potential to be a real deck.

Oh, and 'Goyf sucks. Hate that guy.

[Zirath]

Is Spell Snare necessary in this deck now that you have Abrupt Decay? Snare was used to remove SFM and Goyf primarily in the past but now that you have Abrupt Decay, you have enough removal that Snare seems redundant.

[phazonmutant]

Is Spell Snare necessary in this deck now that you have Abrupt Decay? Snare was used to remove SFM and Goyf primarily in the past but now that you have Abrupt Decay, you have enough removal that Snare seems redundant.

Interesting, that could be the case. I feel that Snare is incredibly well-positioned right now with all the 2-drops running around, but it may be redundant. I like that Snare is good against both creature decks and most combo decks, and it doesn't hurt to have more answers to Goyf.

[Jonathan Alexander]

If I'm not to busy/lazy I might write up a primer on the deck or something. Been a while since I wrote about Magic and I guess it's about time to do so again.
Also, it's strange that nobody likes Counterspell. It's been pretty sweet for us.

[phazonmutant]

If I'm not to busy/lazy I might write up a primer on the deck or something. Been a while since I wrote about Magic and I guess it's about time to do so again.
Also, it's strange that nobody likes Counterspell. It's been pretty sweet for us.

It seems so ambitious to be playing a UU spell in your deck that has a couple of non-U lands and wants to only have a couple lands in play. What does it do that the combination of Pierce and Snare don't?

[Ziveeman]

It seems so ambitious to be playing a UU spell in your deck that has a couple of non-U lands and wants to only have a couple lands in play. What does it do that the combination of Pierce and Snare don't?

If UU is a problem, what about Mana Leak instead of Counterspell? Sure it's dead late game, but so is Spell Pierce, and that card is still awesome.

@Jona: Would definitely want a write-up. You guys were the ones to take it to a GP so I would definitely appreciate any input you have.

[Zirath]

The mana base is pure Blue so I have trouble seeing when you would be unable to cast a UU spell.

My issue with Spell Snare is that it is best when the format is all RUG and Stoneblade. This is not the case. Against Storm, you can only get tutors with it; while very good, there is also the issue that they could simply just cast Ad Nauseam and shut you down. It also doesn't stop Silence/Duress, allowing them to play around your Snare. You cannot play around Counterspell easily.

I actually think Counterspell is really good. I would much rather have it than Snare or Pierce given today's metagame.

How are spells like Fire/Ice, Forked Bolt, Electrolyze and Izzet Charm?

[alphastryk]

The mana base is pure Blue so I have trouble seeing when you would be unable to cast a UU spell.

...

Tiaga and Wasteland are not blue. Some of the posted lists also have a Bayou.

[Barbed Blightning]

The mana base is pure Blue so I have trouble seeing when you would be unable to cast a UU spell.

My issue with Spell Snare is that it is best when the format is all RUG and Stoneblade. This is not the case. Against Storm, you can only get tutors with it; while very good, there is also the issue that they could simply just cast Ad Nauseam and shut you down. It also doesn't stop Silence/Duress, allowing them to play around your Snare. You cannot play around Counterspell easily.

I actually think Counterspell is really good. I would much rather have it than Snare or Pierce given today's metagame.

How are spells like Fire/Ice, Forked Bolt, Electrolyze and Izzet Charm?

My thoughts were more that the meta is full of bobs, hymns and goyfs, and snare fulfills the roll of quasi removal.

I'm happy to add any primers or info to the OP; it's basically finals for me right now so I am busy.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Counterspell was added to our Threshold list shortly before Ghent - Maverick and Miracles were quite the decks back then. Countering "late" Swords to Plowshares was justification enough, but it also countered Knight of the Reliquary. People would sandbag their Knights until you only had one card, then lose it to Counterspell. It's also pretty pretty sweet against any Jaces that get thrown at you. It's especially good when people see you have Pierce, play around it and still get their stuff countered.
The Taiga gets boarded out against combo decks by the way. Looks greedy, feels greedy, still works. Also, I suggest you test the list as it is covered in the GP. When Carsten first sent me the maindeck I mocked him, but when we actually got around to test the deck, it seemed to crush everything.

Edit: I won't have time to write an article in the near future. So I guess you guys will have to figure out yourself what the reasons behind the configurations are. But in general this deck works pretty much the same as regular Threshold.

[Zirath]

Tiaga and Wasteland are not blue. Some of the posted lists also have a Bayou.

The original list is pure blue. Wasteland is barely used to cast most of the spells anyways (Tarmogoyf is essentially the only one). There is no reason that trying to make the mana base pure blue is strictly bad since you play 4 Daze anyways. I am sure there are merits to Bayou and Taiga but only if the list is not as blue heavy.

@Spell Snare: Most of those cards you need to have your two of and you usually have Daze anyways. You also have more options turn 2 with DRS than RUG does. I know there are merits to Snare but I think there are better cards and have since Sneak Show returned.

[SirTylerGalt]

Cool deck!

I just remembered that Caleb Durward wrote an article about 4-color thresh a few months ago:

http://www.channelfireball.com/home/legacy-weapon-the-return-of-4-color-thresh/

[catmint]

If I would go 4c, I would rather splash red into BUG than replace goyf/nimble with deathrite and splash black for decay/deathrite in RUG.

Splashing decay solves a couple of problems that RUG has, but there are more problems created by loosing nimble or goyf (besides having weaker mana).

Splashing red for BUG solves the "cheap removal" problem "missing reach problem" "handling planeswalker problem" for the cost of more awkward mana (probably loosing all early BB spells, which I am not too fond of anyway).

What I would like to play:

4 deathrite
4 delver
4 Goyf
2 Tombstalker

3 Bolt
3 Decay

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

4 Force
4 Daze
4 Thoughtseize

20 lands - no fkin clue what could work.

Sideboard including Red-Blast and Ancient Grudge to make the shardless and UWx matchups positive.
Something like
1 Decay
1 Bolt
2 Surgical
2 Plague
2 Red-blast
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Flex for control/midrange with something like Thrun, the last Troll, Winter orb, Sylvan Library or snapcaster mage

[Barbed Blightning]

If I would go 4c, I would rather splash red into BUG than replace goyf/nimble with deathrite and splash black for decay/deathrite in RUG.

Splashing decay solves a couple of problems that RUG has, but there are more problems created by loosing nimble or goyf (besides having weaker mana).

Splashing red for BUG solves the "cheap removal" problem "missing reach problem" "handling planeswalker problem" for the cost of more awkward mana (probably loosing all early BB spells, which I am not too fond of anyway).

What I would like to play:

4 deathrite
4 delver
4 Goyf
2 Tombstalker

3 Bolt
3 Decay

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

4 Force
4 Daze
4 Thoughtseize

20 lands - no fkin clue what could work.

Sideboard including Red-Blast and Ancient Grudge to make the shardless and UWx matchups positive.
Something like
1 Decay
1 Bolt
2 Surgical
2 Plague
2 Red-blast
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Flex for control/midrange with something like Thrun, the last Troll, Winter orb, Sylvan Library or snapcaster mage

My tweak:

4 Deathrite
4 Delver
3 Goyf
3 Nimble Mongoose

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Lightning Bolt

4 FoW
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce

Mana:

3 Tropical
3 Volcanic
2 Underground

4 Wasteland

3 Misty
3 Scalding
2 Delta

You could also drop the geese, add a goyf and two 'seizes. Personally, I like the idea of playing a bit more towards the RUG end.

Tombstalker's problem is his BB in the cost. If I'm running him, I also want to be running Hymn as I like it much better in tempo than Thoughtseize. Though Stalker is a tank in TA.

Board:

3 Submerge
3 REB
2 Pithing Needle
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Plague
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Darkblast
1 Sylvan Library


Mostly throwing stuff at the wall here.

[Quasim0ff]

I played it yesterday in my "casual" legacy-testing group, and I found that the taiga is useless. Taiga is basicly a snap mulligan if you draw that + waste in your opener, no matter how strong the rest of the hand is.

I also noticed that you need tarmogoyfs somewhere, MOST LIKELY in the board and not main deck. The deck can easily grind out g1's, where goyf isn't needed. However, after SB, people have a lot more hate for your creatures, and you need the ability to go more aggressive.

I played 3x Spell pierce, 1 spell snare in the main deck, and cut the counter spell for the 4th deathrite. You need it for the esper-matchup, I found, who can go just swords-snapcaster-swords otherwise.


My sideboard was geared towards combo - a lot - as I feel that the main deck is pretty strong against the fair decks:
2x Flusterstorm
1x Life from the Loam
1x Jace Beleren (For the jace-matchups, It really was amazing I found)
2x Thoughtseize
1x Dismember
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Grim Lavamancer
1x Red Elemental Blast
4x Submerge
1x Tormod's Crypt

I conceded the dredge matchup, as I don't want to commit that many slots to it, and you can still get lucky to grind them out with a quick delver-flip (or two) and bolts.

I feel that the main deck is pretty well positioned against the fair decks, and the with the ability to change the countersuite depending on the expected meta, you can easily position yourself fine against combo.

And pray you don't meet a white weenie deck, as they are a shitmatcup :eyebrow:

[Barbed Blightning]

I played it yesterday in my "casual" legacy-testing group, and I found that the taiga is useless. Taiga is basicly a snap mulligan if you draw that + waste in your opener, no matter how strong the rest of the hand is.

I also noticed that you need tarmogoyfs somewhere, MOST LIKELY in the board and not main deck. The deck can easily grind out g1's, where goyf isn't needed. However, after SB, people have a lot more hate for your creatures, and you need the ability to go more aggressive.

I played 3x Spell pierce, 1 spell snare in the main deck, and cut the counter spell for the 4th deathrite. You need it for the esper-matchup, I found, who can go just swords-snapcaster-swords otherwise.

My sideboard was geared towards combo - a lot - as I feel that the main deck is pretty strong against the fair decks:
2x Flusterstorm
1x Life from the Loam
1x Jace Beleren (For the jace-matchups, It really was amazing I found)
2x Thoughtseize
1x Dismember
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Grim Lavamancer
1x Red Elemental Blast
4x Submerge
1x Tormod's Crypt

I conceded the dredge matchup, as I don't want to commit that many slots to it, and you can still get lucky to grind them out with a quick delver-flip (or two) and bolts.

I feel that the main deck is pretty well positioned against the fair decks, and the with the ability to change the countersuite depending on the expected meta, you can easily position yourself fine against combo.

And pray you don't meet a white weenie deck, as they are a shitmatcup :eyebrow:

With four submerge a lavamancer and a dismember, I wouldn't call this sideboard very combo-focused. Surgicals would help with both dredge and other combo; I'd cut the grim, the dismember and a submerge. Also engineered plague or golgari charm wipe out death and taxes.

[ShiftyKapree]

Has anyone been testing this deck out, if so what have your results been so far? I plan to test this deck after my semester is over, can't wait!

[Quasim0ff]

Has anyone been testing this deck out, if so what have your results been so far? I plan to test this deck after my semester is over, can't wait!

It works pretty well. The manabase needs a little work, as well as the sideboard, but other than that, it's real strong :)

And it's hilarious to play!

[ShiftyKapree]

It works pretty well. The manabase needs a little work, as well as the sideboard, but other than that, it's real strong :)

And it's hilarious to play!

What list are you currently working with, also I plan on adding a basic to the SB and Life from the loam to improve the manabase against some matchups

[Purgatory]

Played the deck for a few hands yesterday, and it felt hilarious indeed. This was the list I sleeved up:


8 Flooded Strand / Polluted Delta / Misty Rainforest / Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Abrupt Decay


I want to cut something, probably a Mongoose, for the third Volcanic Island. Although the maindeck contains few red cards, the board has plenty, and Volcanic helps with faking that you're RUG for a couple of turns, until you drop the Underground Sea into Abrupt Decay, and just laugh and laugh. Fantastic feeling.

[Quasim0ff]

Played the deck for a few hands yesterday, and it felt hilarious indeed. This was the list I sleeved up:


8 Flooded Strand / Polluted Delta / Misty Rainforest / Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Abrupt Decay


I want to cut something, probably a Mongoose, for the third Volcanic Island. Although the maindeck contains few red cards, the board has plenty, and Volcanic helps with faking that you're RUG for a couple of turns, until you drop the Underground Sea into Abrupt Decay, and just laugh and laugh. Fantastic feeling.

One of the first lands I fetch is sea for the deathrite. Deathrite is the reason you are playing black in this deck, as the card is fucking insane.

My current list is:

4 wasteland
2 sea
2 trop
2 volc
8 fetch (4 tarn, 2 delta, 1 misty, 1 catacomps)

4 force
4 stifle
4 daze
3 pierce
1 snare

4 bolts
2 decay

4 brainstorm
4 ponder

4 delver
4 deathrite
4 mongoose

SB:
3 submerge
2 thoughtseize
1 vendilion clique
1 tormod's crypt
2 surgical extraction
2 sulfur elemental
1 ancient grudge
1 life from the loam
1 REB
1 echoing truth

sideboard is still a work in progress, and I am not aware how it will turn out to look.

[ShiftyKapree]

How are you guys playing Deathrite and Mongoose in the same deck? I cut my goose's after realizing that you want to use deathrite on your own graveyard aswell. For the Sb I came up with 3 surgical Extractions, 3 Submerge, 2 Rough/Tumble, 1 Life From the loam, 1 ghostquater, 2 krosan grips, 2 flusterstorm, 1 pulse. Debating on cutting the 2 flusterstorms for 2 REB.

[Barbed Blightning]

How are you guys playing Deathrite and Mongoose in the same deck? I cut my goose's after realizing that you want to use deathrite on your own graveyard aswell. For the Sb I came up with 3 surgical Extractions, 3 Submerge, 2 Rough/Tumble, 1 Life From the loam, 1 ghostquater, 2 krosan grips, 2 flusterstorm, 1 pulse. Debating on cutting the 2 flusterstorms for 2 REB.

Why the singleton ghost quarter?

[ShiftyKapree]

Why the singleton ghost quarter?

It provides an extra waste affect to matchups that don't run basic's. You simply blow people out of games in Bug and Rug. Where those matchups are usually tight play but with the extra waste affect it improves the match up significantly.

[phazonmutant]

How are you guys playing Deathrite and Mongoose in the same deck? I cut my goose's after realizing that you want to use deathrite on your own graveyard aswell. For the Sb I came up with 3 surgical Extractions, 3 Submerge, 2 Rough/Tumble, 1 Life From the loam, 1 ghostquater, 2 krosan grips, 2 flusterstorm, 1 pulse. Debating on cutting the 2 flusterstorms for 2 REB.

I agree that there's some tension there, that's why I added 2 Thought Scour after some testing. I don't think it's any worse than DRS and Goyf together in other decks

[goblinsplayer]

Good job on the primer JC. Isn't there builds of this deck that runs shardless agent?

[Quasim0ff]

How are you guys playing Deathrite and Mongoose in the same deck? I cut my goose's after realizing that you want to use deathrite on your own graveyard aswell. For the Sb I came up with 3 surgical Extractions, 3 Submerge, 2 Rough/Tumble, 1 Life From the loam, 1 ghostquater, 2 krosan grips, 2 flusterstorm, 1 pulse. Debating on cutting the 2 flusterstorms for 2 REB.

I haven't had any problems, in any way, with playing deathrite and mongoose in the same deck.

I don't think you need a ghost quarter, when you play Loam. Chaining waste's from loam is absolutely enough.

[ShiftyKapree]

I agree that there's some tension there, that's why I added 2 Thought Scour after some testing. I don't think it's any worse than DRS and Goyf together in other decks

How is Goyf and DRS any worse than Goose and DRS? Goose relies on seven cards in your graveyard, where as goyf relies on everyone's graveyard. By playing DRS you negate cards in graveyards but having control of which cards can go.

[Final Fortune]

How is Goyf and DRS any worse than Goose and DRS? Goose relies on seven cards in your graveyard, where as goyf relies on everyone's graveyard. By playing DRS you negate cards in graveyards but having control of which cards can go.

Because it's difficult to reach ******** while removing lands from your graveyard in order to generate mana and make Mongoose 3/3 as opposed to 1/1 where Tarmogoyf is almost always a 3/4 regardless of whether or not you are using Shaman because it benefits from both graveyards as opposed to only your own. The impact on setting back Mongoose a turn from Threshold is much bigger than the impact of giving Tarmogoyf a -1/1 because even at a lowly 2/3 he still blocks other Tarmogoyfs kills most of the other creatures in the format.

[ShiftyKapree]

Because it's difficult to reach ******** while removing lands from your graveyard in order to generate mana and make Mongoose 3/3 as opposed to 1/1 where Tarmogoyf is almost always a 3/4 regardless of whether or not you are using Shaman because it benefits from both graveyards as opposed to only your own. The impact on setting back Mongoose a turn from Threshold is much bigger than the impact of giving Tarmogoyf a -1/1 because even at a lowly 2/3 he still blocks other Tarmogoyfs kills most of the other creatures in the format.

That's the point I was trying to make, I thought it was assumed goose had threshold which is negated by DRS.

[phazonmutant]

How is Goyf and DRS any worse than Goose and DRS? Goose relies on seven cards in your graveyard, where as goyf relies on everyone's graveyard. By playing DRS you negate cards in graveyards but having control of which cards can go.

They both have some awkwardness. I've certainly had times where DRS was eating everything out of everyone's graveyards making Goyf tiny, and of course it sometimes hurts Thresh. I'm not saying it's worse, I'm just saying there's problems either way. But the benefits outweigh the potential problems - most decks have a lot of trouble dealing with a Lavamancer-elf and a 3/3 Shroud once everything gets going.

[Purgatory]

I haven't had any issues with DRS and Mongoose so far, there seems to always be things in your opponent's graveyard to eat, and when it's late enough in the match that you start throwing your own instants or sorceries from the graveyard to Shock the opponent, then the graveyard is often more than 7 cards, at least in my experience.

It's in my book on the same level as DRS and Tombstalker in TA. It can potentially be awkward, but it seldom happens.

[Einherjer]

Went 3-1 at my Locals with BURG, or RUG-B as a friend of mine is calling the deck.

This was my list:

3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
4 Daze
4 Stifle
1 Counterspell

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay

4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:
3 Flusterstorm
3 Submerge
1 Life from the Loam
1 Pyroblast
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Tarmogoyf
2 Grim Lavamancer


So, here a short summary:
1) TES
I: I start with Delver, Waste, Stifle, Daze win.
II: He rips my hand and kills me.
III: I am on the play, keep Shaman, Mongoose, Stifle, Flusterstorm and 3 lands. He mulls to 6, and I think that playing Shaman here is correct, he had the T1 kill and I die. Well.

2) Miracles
I: We are both flooded, I counter his Balances, but until I find pressure Angels and Cliques kill me.
II: Delver, Wasteland, Stifle, Daze, win.
III: He manages to sneak in a Skull with a sideboarded Mystic, but I stifle living weapon; bolt the Mystic and waste his land, win afterwards.

3) Hypergenisis
I: Fetch? No, I'll stifle that. Win.
II: Fetch? No, I'll stifle that. Win.

4) DDFT
I: I start with Delver, soon I find additional pressure and win.
II: Got early pressure and too much counterspells, combined with manadenial.

3-1

So, yeah the deck felt... strange. Sometimes it felt just like an inferior version of RUG, on some other occasions it just feels rather overpowered. Such a small sample isn't enough to state anything about the deck though, but I'll keep working on it for sure.

Greetings

[ShiftyKapree]

I heard this deck is kind of taking off in Europe, any advice to us American players for the deck.

[Sasan]

I heard this deck is kind of taking off in Europe, any advice to us American players for the deck.


Here is my most recent deck list:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=11264&iddeck=82270


With two Goyfs the deck has more threats than the Grand Prix list. The latter runs too often out of gas, so Goyfs are needed. Cutting two random counter spells is not a big deal as my sideboard has plenty of them. Deathrite can also fix the combo matchups and compensate the lower counter magic count in the main deck.

[ShiftyKapree]

Here is my most recent deck list:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=11264&iddeck=82270


With two Goyfs the deck has more threats than the Grand Prix list. The latter runs too often out of gas, so Goyfs are needed. Cutting two random counter spells is not a big deal as my sideboard has plenty of them. Deathrite can also fix the combo matchups and compensate the lower counter magic count in the main deck.

Do you have a tournament report?

[Michael Keller]

Extremely disappointed that a deck sporting the "Castlevania" moniker has little or nothing to do with vampires, the undead or any powerful demonic entity but is rather a run-of-the-mill BUG-splash deck.

Truly saddening.

[Sasan]

Do you have a tournament report?

only in German but if you are interested let me know and I will write one in English.

[ShiftyKapree]

only in German but if you are interested let me know and I will write one in English.

Ya that would be awesome bc I took a real interest to the deck. I refer to this deck at BURG not castlevania

[Pdingo]

Well i played this deck now since the bazaar of moxen.
Here are my results(4 tournaments):

First was a little tournament with 8 players.5:0 won this;)
Wins
2:0 against esperblade
2:1 against sneak and show
2:0 against RUG
Top 4:

2:1 against infinite dreams SnT
2:1 against RUG

Then the second tournament was bad, because i didn't sleep 2 whole nights.
Came to late became a match loss. 2:3..should be better.

Wins:

Forget them but i win 2 matches:P

Loses against:

1:2 against vial maverick(think its a better match up)
1:2 against RUG ( this game i should win, but i was so sleepy that i was going home after this match)

Next tournament with 16 players and 5 rounds(4:1)

Wins:
2:1 modern shizzle
2:0 against Jund
2:0 against Zombardement
2:1 against UWR Delver

Los against:

0:2 against infinite dreams SnT

Today if played a tournament with 20 players.(7:1)
Won this;)

2:0 against Zoo
2:0 against RUG
2:0 Pox
2:1Jund
2:0 Deathblade
2:1 UWr Miracle (Final)


Draw with my friend(He was playing jund, a very good match up)

Lose against:

0:2 against infinite dreams SnT

Well i won this tournament .

I do very like the deck and enjoy it;)
Its very strong against a lot decks.
But it's very skilly. Noting for beginners.

The SnT match seems 40/60 for us before Sb, but after Sb 60/40 for us;)

Feel free to post.
Greets from Switzerland Pdingo

[Pdingo]

Edit:

Here is my List at the Moment:

4 Delver of Secrets
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
4 Daze
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce
4 Wasteland
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Taiga (Test it insteat of a 8th Fetchland)
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
SB: 3 Submerge
SB: 1 Fire Covenant
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Grim Lavamancer
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Reanimate
SB: 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

[Quasim0ff]

I still HATE taiga in this deck. You cannot keep one-landers, due to the low land count, if your only land is a taiga, as all your daze, ponder, brainstorm, delver is turned off. You have _1_ t1 play, and thats deathrite.

[Sasan]

So here we are, my tournament report.

I played a 45 person tournament and ended it 4-1-1.


http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=11264

(deck list is on position 6).

My list has 2 Goyfs and it pays off as you can cast it when your opponent has handled your shamans and delvers. When their point removal is gone, you can beat the shit out of them with Goyfs.

First Round:Lands/ Aggro Loam 1-1-1
A horrible MU for Canadian but not for bUrg. Game 1 I am screwed due to double wasteland and port. Game 2 I keep him slow with shamans and timed stifles/counters. My Loam screws him. Game 3 I have a great clock and would have won easily if he did not cast after time out a devastating dreams on my two Mungos. Draw. But is ok for such an awful matchup for normal tempo decks.

Second Round: Deathblade 1-2
First Game I answer all his threats (Stoneforges with my snares, Equipment with Decay and jaces with Force/Daze. Perfect Game. Second game I draw 6-7 turns only lands and lose - cantrips did not help. Game 3 he it was close and we got in topdeck mode and he won with Jace that he should have boarded put, so I did not have pyroblasts boarded in.

wow, what a bad start in the tournament. But the other rounds were just incredible.

Third Round: Jund 2-0
First Game Stifle/Delver/Waste make an autowin. Second game he is ahead and had an active shaman. I cast my shaman, submerge his. he casts it again and activates it often and I let his shaman fizzle with mine. After his Pfire was taken care of by Clique or Loam (don't remember) it was easy. Goyf on the clear board meant win.

Fourth Round: Mirror Match 2-0
First Game I play very conservative and take the control role and hope to get there and in top deck mode my Goyf made the difference. Game 2 he has mungo and Goyf online and I only one Goyf. I attack, he decides to double block. I cast fire covenant on his Goyf and voila I win. Beware: Fire Covenant should not be boarded in versus the mirror and RUG - but if you feel that the opponent is very easy to read you can board it and have a surprise. He said: You should not have boarded this. Yeah I know but sometimes rogue tricks are great.

Fith Round: Manaless Dredge 2-0
A negative matchup that is winnable. First Game he loses due to a sideboard card that he forgot to board out. He called the judge although I said it is ok. So a real nice player. Game 2 a search aggressively for delvers and find 2. Shaman and spellbomb do a good job and when the third delver came, he congratulated me.

Sixth Round: Dark Maverick 2-0
First Game I counter and decay the shit out of him and get there with Delver/Goyf. Second Game Fire Covenant eats his board and Mungo/Delver ride to victory.

As I did not have the best opponent score I was only sixth. But it was a blast to play the deck. Every round that I won felt like a cakewalk. The loss was close and not necessary. The draw was against a deck that crushes Canadian.

If you ask me we have a clear candidate for deck to beat status.

What I would change for next tournament:

- I will try 2 Young Pyromancers instead of Goyf. They make great tempo and are cool versus lilli and control decks. Time will tell if YP or Goyf are better.
- I will try to add Compost to the sideboard as it is a great card against Jund and all kinds of black control and bonus: you draw 10-12 cards a round versus dredge. So you can draw your hate and multiple delvers and ride to victory. with 3 shamans, 1 compost and 1 nihil you have great "Grave hate" versus Dredge. Versus reanimator/tin fins my 6 counters in the SB will make the MU easy. No need for more grave hate. except the one-off nihil.

What I liked:
- clique for president. I boarded him against all matches except the dredge one. He is great versus control, good versus combo and is also good versus punishing fire. People play MD ooze in bUrg because of PFire but clique can handle the problem card as fast as ooze, is easier to cast - you don't need 2 G for casting and making the creature 3/3 so that he is not in Pfire reach. And clique is more flexible. The best thing: you can keep Goyf and do not need the not so awesome ooze. the most efficient beater ever. Ooze is not a tempo card. Did I say that clique flies over evey creature and kills all relevant planeswalkers fast? And clique nearly always makes 6 damage as you can remove the removal of the opponent from his hand.
- 2 Goyfs really felt unfair. It was the edge in so many Mus. So I don't know if YP can play the same role as Goyf is needed as a finisher and YP is only great early and we only have 2 slots for him. So yeah I might end with good old Goyf. In the tournament Goyf's card text was: "So you thought you handled everything? Watch me win when I come to play." 1 Goyf is not right in the deck. It is too random. If you do not want to play with 13 creatures then cut one mongoose - ouch - and play with 2 Goyfs. But promise me to have ONE shroud creature in the sideboard then. Perhaps the 4the mongoose, a reanimate, the new m14 Witchstalker (did not test him), Troll Ascetic. No gos: Thrun as he is not castable. I do not understand the bUrg players playing Walkers in the SB. 4 mana is too much for the deck. Just keep your mana curve flat.


Questions for you:
- YP or Goyf? Give your vote.
- What can I cut in the SB for compost? and do not say clique as that flyer will become more awesome when the m14 rule changes apply and everyone will have more jaces etc...
- What do you think about an experimental build with 2 cliques main instead of 2 Goyfs. But again: The MD felt perfect. I would not change a thing I think.

I hope you enjoyed the report.

[Pdingo]

I tested the Taiga and i like it.
Yes first i think the same with daze and co.
But sometimes a good openent cut you of from a colour.
and a 3th green and red mana is nice.
I mean in RUG i wouldn't Play a Taiga but bUrg is a Little diffrent.

@Sasan

Sorry but Pyromancer seems just bad..
Goyf make a lot more..
Pyromancer dies fast like goyf but goyf have a lot stronger Body.
The 1/1 dudes are to slow and dies to easy against everything^^

[Tombstalker]

Are goyf and goose even needed in this build? I don't think so. Going back to catmints list a few pages back (basically TA add red) why not lose green altogether, or maybe just splash for decay? This would ease the manabase and free the deck up to completely wreck graves, theirs and your own without worrying about effecting your own goyfs and geese. Something grixis style.

The usual tempo package +
bolts
targetted discard

4 delver
4 deathrite
2-3 stalker
2-1 clique

So all evasive beaters avoiding ground stalls, stalker eats your grave while DRS controls theirs and grooms yours as needed. I tried something like this in the past and it didn't work, but mostly because it needed a worthwhile replacement for goyf to reach proper threat count. Now with DRS though it looks viable. If anything keep a set of geese in the board for control. Anyway I'd like to hear others thoughts on this.

Also I've been gone for a year but what's up with all the tempo decks running 15-16 creatures? Looks counter productive to velocity especially with delver.

[Pdingo]

Yes Goyfs are needed i think 1-2 are the correct Number;)

Sorry but a Tombstalker make no since in a deck like this..
I want Play Nimble(The good Thing on RUG, you know?)I wont a clobo creaturer like him. It's probably the best Creature in the deck! Yes shaman too;)
And no Discard main is bad in a Temposhell..Why? Because Tapped yourself out is bad..You can Play discard like thoughtseize in the Sideboard against Combo or Hard controll decks like Miracle.

bUrg is a Little bit more a Controll deck with shaman. That's important to know!

Tempo decks Play 11-12 Creatures normally..

[Tombstalker]

I can see your point against discard although I'm still a fan. Tombstalker otoh is house and only requires 6 cards once vs threshold continuously so it plays nicer with shaman. Also stalkers and shamans together make opposing mongeese and goyfs pretty sad.

[Pdingo]

Maybe you like Tombstalker so much but he's bad. He dies to fast. And don't Forget the BB
Tarmogoyf is a good cloock and he's cc is 2;)

For a Tombstalker, it's definitly the wrong Deck.

[Quasim0ff]

This deck requires either ooze or goyf (which, I am not sure of atm, as goyf is a smaller and smaller part of legacy, due to decay I think).

Mongoose is simply put your 2nd best creature (the best is delver).

I would still rather run a bayou than taiga, I think. And then I would find room for 2x thought seize main, not sure what to cut yet thou.

[Pdingo]

@Quasimoff

No Delver is the badest Creature in the deck.. Why? He can be fast but die on everything. Shaman too but he make's a lot more;)
Moongose is the best creature with Shaman in the Deck. He save so much games. When you Play good, you have Treshhold fast!

Thoughtseize Main is bad...Why? In a Tempodeck it's does tapping you out!
In the Sideboard its very good.

i think Taiga make more since because you Need more red for the bolt's and green for the Creatures. You Need black only for shaman. 2Useas are enough.

[Sasan]

Black is only a splash in bUrg and not a main color. This is Canadian splashed with black. If we wanted to play discard and Tombstalker we would play Team America. But we want to play Canadian with the help of Shaman. Decay is only there as we have access to black. So to sum it up: Bayou no, taiga yes.

[Quasim0ff]

Might just be the fact that my entire meta is full with combo, that I like the black discard so much..

[Sasan]

Then I think that Team America is better for your meta as you don't need red for lightning bolts if you face combo :)

[apistat_commander]

Just because I haven't seen it in the thread yet, here is a link to Florian Koch's ChannelFireball article on the deck (http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/burg-delver/).

I have played quite a bit of RUG and ever since DRS hit the scene I have wanted to jam them in the same deck. Team America has felt underwhelming (it feels like either a worse version of RUG or Shardless), but this list is intriguing. However I keep wondering if it is worth destabilizing the already fragile manabase of RUG for just five cards in the maindeck and two in the sideboard. Does 3 DRS and 2 Decay really make enough of a difference to warrant the change?

[Pdingo]

Well the Deck is very good against Combo after SB.

[Sasan]

Just because I haven't seen it in the thread yet, here is a link to Florian Koch's ChannelFireball article on the deck (http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/burg-delver/).

I have played quite a bit of RUG and ever since DRS hit the scene I have wanted to jam them in the same deck. Team America has felt underwhelming (it feels like either a worse version of RUG or Shardless), but this list is intriguing. However I keep wondering if it is worth destabilizing the already fragile manabase of RUG for just five cards in the maindeck and two in the sideboard. Does 3 DRS and 2 Decay really make enough of a difference to warrant the change?


Yes it makes. Read my tournament report and see that I would have lost versus lands and Manaless Dredge without the black splash. And Fire Covenant is one of the most broken sideboard cards ever.

My list with 2 Goyfs feels like a superior version of RUG. no matchup gets worse. it gets better.

[Sasan]

Well the Deck is very good against Combo after SB.

Yes. bUrg eats combo for breakfast. But he wanted to play discard and Tombstalker so that Team America is better for him.

[Madmankevinx]

How would a maindeck like this work out?

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Stifle
3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
2 Abrupt Decay

3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

[Sasan]

How would a maindeck like this work out?

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Stifle
3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
2 Abrupt Decay

3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland


The deck does not work well without Taiga. You want to be able to operate with two lands like RUG. You want to fetch for Usea and Taiga first. So cut one Tropical for a Taiga and adjust your fetchlands accordingly. I would never play with fewer than 4 stifles, you want the card in the first turns without digging for it. 3 Daze is ok as the opponent always plays around it if he is smart so it does not matter if you have daze. So cut a pierce for the 4th stifle. Other than these two changes your deck is fine and will win almost all matches.

[Pdingo]

@Sasan

Yes agree with Team America.

Yeah Fire Conventant is probably broken in this deck:P

@Madmankevinx
¨
I would never Play a Tempo Deck without a playset of Daze. Daze's are important. Same for a Playset Stifle.
The Pierce are not so Important. Spell Snare is a key COunter to Counter a Goyf. A goyf can be very good against us!

You can Play the Deck without Taiga but then Play a fetchie instead of the 3th Tropical;)

But Taiga is probably the right Choose!

[wcm8]

Here's my current approach to the deck:

19 Lands (4 waste, 8 fetch, 3/3/1 tropical/volcanic/underground sea)
4/4/4/4 Delver/ DRS/ Goose/ Young Pyromancer*
4/4 Ponder/Brainstorm
4/4/3 FoW/Daze/Spell Pierce
4/2 Lightning Bolt/Removal*

I find that with 4 DRS, 19 lands seem to be just the right amount. I am only splashing black in a minor amount to be able to activate DRS for reach when needed, otherwise it just plays out like RUG. So I think Underground Sea is the right land, since it plays all of the cantrips and works with Daze. I feel like Taiga or Bayou would lead to more unkeepable hands.

I've been very happy with Pyromancer so far. It doesn't get hurt by grave hate like Tarmogoyf, and spreading out the damage over multiple bodies has been very effective, particularly against decks that run StP as its removal choice. Both creatures certainly have merits, but I think Pyroman fits in with the aggressive strategy slightly better than just a big dumb beater. Against combo, he's generally just as good since Goyf tends to get no bigger than a 3/4 anyways. I also don't think he requires "cute" cards to make him effective like Gitaxian Probe, Cabal Therapy, etc.

I cut Stifle. There are a lot of differing opinions about this, but I just don't find the card necessary. Combo matchup game 1 is going to be weaker, but that's what the sideboard is for. Plus, against an unknown opponent, you don't even know if your opening hand is going to beat combo anyways. But with 11 counterspells, you have a fairly good chance of disrupting them.

The secondary removal depends on what I'm expecting. Chain Lightning, Forked Bolt, Fire//Ice, Dismember, and even Abrupt Decay are all under consideration. I can't say definitively which option is the best, as it really depends on what you end up facing. I think maybe doing a split would be a good idea.

One card I'd consider adding is Sylvan Library and/or Thought Scour.

I could consider cutting 1 Young Pyromancer for an additional spell. However, having 2 on board at the same time is a really easy way to win the game.

I stick with pretty much the same SB as a normal RUG deck. I'm not sure if there's anything in Black that would warrant inclusion. 4 Submerges are a must since I don't run Tarmogoyf of my own, though I suppose Mind Harness might be another strong option.

[Sasan]

@wcm8:

Rough/Tumble is a no go for bUrg. You said you play with a rug sideboard.

[wcm8]

@wcm8:

Rough/Tumble is a no go for bUrg. You said you play with a rug sideboard.

Oh I did forget to mention, I am testing Fire Covenant in its place. So far it's been pretty unreal against Elves and Goblins. So actually there is that small black splash in the SB.

Current SB:
4 Submerge
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Fire Covenant
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Scavenging Ooze

This is just what I'm testing for now. I may consider fitting in Life from the Loam + Winter Orb, Umezawa's Jitte, or a Pithing Needle. Might drop Ooze for a different GY hate card, depending. There are tons of options.

[Pdingo]

Well you cut important things like Stifle and have a lot more creatures. You can Play 19 for a more Controll list but 16 creatures (8 cmc 2) are to much.
Delver Flips much less than in any other Tempo Deck.
I don't think this list is good. You should Play Stifle!
Why get's Tarmogoyf hurten by Gy hate? I mean your oppenent have a gy to;)
I think Pyromancer is not very good in this deck why? He's cc is 2. You wan't tap you out! And when you cast him, you have only 1 mana or something like that to use. That means, maybe one 1/1 token.. maybe two.
He's just a 2/1 dude and bad in the late Game. The tokens too.

A Taiga in the Starthand seems bad sometimes, but only if it the only land that producte a colour, in the Hand. But i mean that's soo random and seem like a bad Argument.
I mean the same thing is when do you have a Plains in Deathblade. What if when you have only a Plains and a Waste in Hand? It's the same. Take a Mulligan to 6. You can still win easy;)

[apistat_commander]

Well you cut important things like Stifle and have a lot more creatures. You can Play 19 for a more Controll list but 16 creatures (8 cmc 2) are to much.
Delver Flips much less than in any other Tempo Deck.
I don't think this list is good. You should Play Stifle!
Why get's Tarmogoyf hurten by Gy hate? I mean your oppenent have a gy to;)
I think Pyromancer is not very good in this deck why? He's cc is 2. You wan't tap you out! And when you cast him, you have only 1 mana or something like that to use. That means, maybe one 1/1 token.. maybe two.
He's just a 2/1 dude and bad in the late Game. The tokens too.

A Taiga in the Starthand seems bad sometimes, but only if it the only land that producte a colour, in the Hand. But i mean that's soo random and seem like a bad Argument.
I mean the same thing is when do you have a Plains in Deathblade. What if when you have only a Plains and a Waste in Hand? It's the same. Take a Mulligan to 6. You can still win easy;)

Not to speak for someone else, but wcm8 didn't play Stifle in traditional RUG Delver either (if I remember correctly). Some people don't like the card, but I think it is pretty hard to deny that almost every tournament winning RUG list runs the full set.

He is running Pyromancer in place of Goyf. Everyone in the thread has been slagging on Goyf, but he does what he does well (which is be a big dumb beater). I wouldn't cut him entirely, but I am intrigued by Pyromancer. However all of our threats are pretty fragile so adding another guy that dies to every removal spell seems poor.

I do like the idea of running 12 one drop creatures. I don't want to push the number of creatures too high, but everything in our deck is a removal magnet. If I actually make it to Legacy on Friday I will probably run the 4th DRS in place of a Pierce/Snare. That would push me up to 14 creatures (4 Delver/Goose/DRS, 2 Goyf) but I don't think having 28 vs. 30 spells will make that much of a difference in flipping my Delver.

[wcm8]

Well you cut important things like Stifle and have a lot more creatures. You can Play 19 for a more Controll list but 16 creatures (8 cmc 2) are to much.
Delver Flips much less than in any other Tempo Deck.
I don't think this list is good. You should Play Stifle!
Why get's Tarmogoyf hurten by Gy hate? I mean your oppenent have a gy to;)
I think Pyromancer is not very good in this deck why? He's cc is 2. You wan't tap you out! And when you cast him, you have only 1 mana or something like that to use. That means, maybe one 1/1 token.. maybe two.
He's just a 2/1 dude and bad in the late Game. The tokens too.

A Taiga in the Starthand seems bad sometimes, but only if it the only land that producte a colour, in the Hand. But i mean that's soo random and seem like a bad Argument.
I mean the same thing is when do you have a Plains in Deathblade. What if when you have only a Plains and a Waste in Hand? It's the same. Take a Mulligan to 6. You can still win easy;)

There are countless arguments for and against the inclusion of Stifle, I really don't think this thread needs to devolve into another one. However, I will say that by playing 19 lands and 4 DRS, you're going to lose FAR less games to opposing mana screw than a list than runs 18 and 4 Stifle.

My approach plays like a powerful version of 'Blue Zoo', with the major difference being that every creature is more capable of single-handedly winning the game if unanswered (compare that to Blue Zoo's running of sub-optimal options like Kird Ape or Wild Nacatl). Delver still flips with relatively high regularity -- I still run 25 spells, 8 of which help set it up. Pyromancer also has been pretty beastly with Daze/FoW and just cycling through cantrips and burn.

The thing about playing 'tempo' as a strategy is that it's completely useless if you haven't established a clock. Running 16 threats (with 12 of them being 1-drops!) means that you'll have a much easier time being the aggressor, especially in the face of all the efficient removal being played right now (Abrupt Decay, Punishing Fire, StP -> Snapcaster recursion, etc.). You can take my list and substitute Tarmogoyf for the Pyromancer, or run some sort of split, but I'm really liking how Pyromancer interacts with the free counterspells and cantrip engine.

[Quasim0ff]

Stifle, as a card, is only good when "unexpected" or when people don't have a way to play around it.

@The discard inclusion/non-inclusion - I like this deck, way more than traditional RUG and BUG separately, due to the amount of free wins it can provide. Besides, when you got a set of FBB volcs as well as judge foil bolts, you try to play it as often as possible, and when this deck is so extremely powerful, you might just do so ;)

I can see a reason to not play bayou over taiga, if you are playing a traditional RUG sideboard, with sulfur elementals etc, but I still don't like it. It might just be my fondness of the discard, which I might have to eschew when I take it to a larger tournament (BoM Paris). I don't like goyf in here, thou. Scavenging Ooze is a house, and it need's to be respected as one. (More like a skyscraper where goyf is the house). Goyf is superb in RUG, due to it's ability to end out games quickly, but this deck has more longevity to it, due to mongoose and DRS being so super powerful. Ooze is just some extra haumph, and I like it for it.

Fire Covenant is insane thou, and I might have to play taiga simply to play it more reliable. I still don't like the 2 land (1 waste, 1 taiga) that shuts all your cantrips off... I might have to get used to it, and just rely much more on the mana provided by DRS than I currently am (Going to -2 life as often as possible).

[Pdingo]

-Not to Play Stifle in a Tempo deck seems like the badest idea you can have...lol
Stfile is so so good. Sometimes your Oppenent can't Play around it^^.
I mean not to Play Stifle is the same like when you don't Play LED in a storm Deck.


-Well i still think Pyromancer is just bad. Probably in this deck.

-28 or 30 Spell ok do make not much diffrent. But when you Play less and less Instant and sorcery's it's can be relevant. That's a important Point of a contstant TempoDeck.

[Quasim0ff]

-Not to Play Stifle in a Tempo deck seems like the badest idea you can have...lol
Stfile is so so good. Sometimes your Oppenent can't Play around it^^.
I mean not to Play Stifle is the same like when you don't Play LED in a storm Deck.


-Well i still think Pyromancer is just bad. Probably in this deck.

-28 or 30 Spell ok do make not much diffrent. But when you Play less and less Instant and sorcery's it's can be relevant. That's a important Point of a contstant TempoDeck.
How long have you been playing delver-decks in legacy? There was a period for about 1-1.5 years where stifle was a terrible card. Right now the meta is good for it, due to so many decks playing "fair" combos.

[Pdingo]

I playng RUG delver since Delver cames out;)
I dont think stifle was a bad Card. Maybe with MM. Then is not right now;)
We have now so much other Cards/meta and when you play a Tempodeck without a Stifle then you do something wrong. sorry but that's the true Thing.

[Quasim0ff]

I playng RUG delver since Delver cames out;)
I dont think stifle was a bad Card. Maybe with MM. Then is not right now;)
We have now so much other Cards/meta and when you play a Tempodeck without a Stifle then you do something wrong. sorry but that's the true Thing.
If you think stifle has always been a beastly card in tempo decks, you are simply delusional. Spell Snare/Spell pierce had all the spots in RUG for a period, due to stifle not being good.

When people stopped playing around stifle, it went back to being awesome, and that's where we are today. The format is so blazingly fast these days, compared to just a few years ago. At that time, stifle wasn't so incredible, but now it is again, and I wouldn't dream of playing a deck w/o 4x stifle =)

[blablub]

Hey Guys,

Got a question, what do you play turn 1? Delver or DRS? i am not sure, someone have an advice for me? does it depends on the Matchup?

[Pdingo]

I never said that stifle was so good like today in the past.
Today it's very important.

@blablub

Well it depends on your hand.
I rarely play first turn delver or shaman.Why? you can do that only you have a daze in hand.
First turn delver are bad without any daze, because your oppenent can waste you or easy handle your delver.

Normally it's dual/fetch go. For stifle something or counter something.
You have to try it a lot then you see what i mean.

[blablub]

Hm, this sounds like the old strategies of Canadian Thresh before Delver, so you are not that aggressive like the normal RUG-Delver? I need some help with the playstyle :)

[Pdingo]

Yes, youre not so aggressive. First controll then win.
But i mean it's still not a good play first turn delver without a daze. The same for rug.

[wcm8]

This is just one example among many why I feel Stifle is an underpowered card. Say you go Trop -> Pass (forecasting the fact you're likely holding Stifle), and your opponent just goes Dual -> 1-drop. Feels bad man.

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/23898_The-Ultimate-RUG-Delver-Primer.html

Drew Levin makes a pretty coherent argument against the card in this article.

"The real reason that Stifle is unplayably bad is that it's probably the worst topdeck in Legacy. Well no—the real reason that Stifle is unplayably bad is that it's probably the worst card in Legacy on the draw. Well wait—the real reason that Stifle is unplayably bad is that it doesn't stop anything you care about. Having it on turn 1 and hitting their fetchland is the dream but what if they just crack it in your upkeep? What if they just play their other lands first play their spells and then play and crack their fetchlands when you have mana tapped for Tarmogoyf or Ponder into Delver?

What if Stifle is making you play worse by creating false dilemmas between holding mana up for Stifle and casting a spell that will benefit you (Ponder Brainstorm or a creature)? What if Stifle was a card that actually stopped cards you actually care about? Wouldn't that be a little better?"

Compare holding up mana for Stifle vs. actually deploying a Delver, Goose, or, EVEN BETTER, Deathrite Shaman. You have now established a clock, legitimizing all of your counter magic by forcing your opponent to interact in short time or die. Very few good players are going to keep a 1-lander hand that just loses to Stifle. Also, DRS accomplishes a lot more than Stifle by accelerating you into a potential 3 mana on the second turn, or perhaps Wasteland + Daze, or threat + Spell Pierce mana, or whatever. DRS is far more versatile than Stifle right now, and not playing it in a deck that can easily support it just seems wrong to me. In fact, I think it's pretty akin to not playing 4 Mental Misstep back when that was a card. DRS is arguably the best one-drop in Legacy right now, and like Misstep one of the best ways of beating it is by playing your own.

Now you might say, why not just play both? Well once you go up to 14-16 creatures, your space for options becomes increasingly tight. You don't want to skimp on removal, you're certainly not going to cut Ponder/Bstorm, and I think it's fairly obvious that in terms of importance and versatility, the best counterspells in the format are FoW, Daze, and Spell Pierce.

[apistat_commander]

The problem with Drew Levin's analysis is that it focuses solely on Stifle's application against fetchlands. There are heaps of important activated and triggered abilities that you want to mess with:

- Wasteland
- Planeswalker activations
- Miracles
- Storm Triggers
- Cascade triggers
- Griselbrand
- Annihilator triggers
- Jitte
- Snapcaster
- Stoneforge
- Batterskull
- Clique
- DRS
- Animate dead
- Veteran Explorer
- Deed
- Charbelcher
- Geist
- Narcomoeba
- Everything good in Goblins and Death and Taxes
- KotR
- Mother of Runes

Look at the list. It includes cards from almost every major archetype and I am sure I missed something. That is why you play Stifle. In addition to the free wins you get from mana screwing people, you also get a tool to interact with resolved permanents. Granted stopping some of those things is pretty marginal, but sometimes the difference between winning and losing is just a single DRS activation. It also ups your blue count for FoW and spell count for Delver.

I am sure there are certain metas and ways of playing/building a Delver deck that don't require Stifle. However given the power and flexibility of the card, it is pretty easy to understand why the most successful incarnations of the Delver deck are running the full set.

[Pdingo]

Well i can't agree with Drew Lewins stifle is bad argument's.

You Play Tempo not a Aggro Shell. And in a Temposhell you Play Stifle.
It's completly wrong not to Play it. That's the truth!

[ShiftyKapree]

So I'm currently having a debate with my team about Spell Snare and Spell Pierce in the maindeck. Which one do you guys prefer and why? Also building a sideboard for this deck I am having trouble coming up with.

[Pdingo]

In this deck you have to prefer spell snare.
Why?
Because you have mb some problems against Tarmogoyf and other creatures like thalia.
Your anyway good against PWs like lili with stifle and co.
And spell snare is in my option better against storm combo.
Its hits the important tutor and the cabal ritual too.

For the sideboard important are:

1-2 Fire conventant
1 Life from the loam
3-4 Submerge
gy hate: I prefer surgical extraction.
1 Reanimate , Its my favorite sideboars card with Fire.
Rest are flex slots
2 REB/Pyroblast

[wcm8]

Update: one thing I have found after testing my list for awhile is that 16 creatures is just a tad too many, and 14 seems to be the right number to consistently have a threat onboard*. So from my list I would cut 2 of the Pyromancers/Tarmogoyf and add some additional spells -- right now I've just put in 2 Thought Scour as placeholders, but they are actually really good for fueling Mongoose and DRS.

*This is further justified via my prior testing with Team America, where the final creature base I decided upon was 4/4/4/2 Delver/Tarmo/DRS/ Tombstalker(or Clique or Snapcaster or mixture)

[Pdingo]

Seems better you should probably cut the pyromancer(best was all)
But i think you wouldntt do that:P

Thoughtscour are the wrong place in this deck.
You should play more controll engine.

[ShiftyKapree]

Went to SCG Somerset this weekend and went 1-3 drop with the deck.
This is all from memory, I apologize since I don't have my scorepad with me.

Round 1: Omnishow
Game 1 lose the dice roll so I'm on the play. I keep a 2 wasteland hand a fetch, delver, stifle and deathrite. I open up with getting a tropical casting deathrite passing the turn. My turn two I play a volcanic island after drawing it and play delver pass. I attempt to stifle his turn 3 fetch and he counters it and goes off with a SnT to Omni. Game two I keep a daze and REB and stifle in hand and lose on turn 5
0-2

Round 2 G/W MAV with Vial
I forget how this round goes, but I remember him playing a SoFI and getting crushed by that game one. I win game two by blowing out his manabase. Game 3 I error where I had a life from the loam and wasteland in graveyard but decided to try and beat with delver and mongoose instead of wasting his manabase which he casts two Thalias on me and beats with a sword of light and shadow on a Scyrb Ranger.

1-2
Overall 0-2

Round 3: Some G/W combo deck with Emarkul
I decide to continue round 3 by playing and Crush him 2-0 but the deck seemed an interesting concept and this was the players 1st major tournament in about 8 years I believe he said. But I found this funny, the player that was sitting next to us got a game loss because the round before he ripped up the result sheet up in front of his opponent haha, highlight of the day for me next to the guy who freaked out on my younger brother.

Round 4: Dark Maverick
I win one game against this but I remember getting beat by SoFI and the games being close but not being able to get there with the deck.
I decide to drop after this round and get some food and trade to finish up building Shardless BUG for myself bc Ill be moving onto that deck for the time being.

Suggestions to the deck: I feel like playing against any stoneforge deck they have the upper hand but it is a tight game even after board. I still enjoy the deck but at the current meta I feel like playing 4 deathrite, 4 delver and 4 goose arnt sufficient enough to get you there. If I was to play a tempo deck I would play RUG, playing a goyf is just too good again now.
Heres the deck I played:
4 deathrite
4 goose'
4 delver
4 FOW
4 BS
4 Stifle
4 Ponder
3 Spellsnare
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Daze
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tarn
2 underground sea
2 tropical island
2 volcanic island
1 taiga
SB:
2 REB
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Fire Covenant
2 Spell Pierce
2 Ancient Grudge
4 Submerge
1 Life from the loam

[Pdingo]

The Thing is against Omnishow:
You have to Play discard in the SB for every Combo deck. It's so so important. I mean when you Play black you should.
Omni Show Player can easy Play defense grid, then that's it. You will probably lose the Counterwar without a discard spell or a very very good Hand. You don't Need the real tempo Play here, that's allowed you to Play discard.
Thoughtseize is key.

Against maverick is important:
You can't do a mistake. The Vial Mav match up are a Little bit harder. But still Favered. ("I error where I had a life from the loam and wasteland in graveyard but decided to try and beat with delver and mongoose instead of wasting his manabase which he casts two Thalias on me and beats with a sword of light and shadow on a Scyrb Ranger")

to your Decklist:

You don't Need 3 decay's. 2 are enough with this manabase. Sometimes you Shuffle the seconds away and that with 2 decays in the deck.

[Sasan]

the point is that you need 2 Goyfs MD and only 3 Shamans and 2 Decays. Then the deck will feel more fluid ;)

[Quasim0ff]

the point is that you need 2 Goyfs MD and only 3 Shamans and 2 Decays. Then the deck will feel more fluid ;)
I still don't see the reasoning for Goyf, and after some serious testing, I don't like it still ;x

How do you play the deck? Like a tap-out control, or how? I dislike not being able to hold stifle/anything t2/t3 if I draw a wasteland and a goyf in combination..

[Pdingo]

@quasimoff i don't see any problem here. 1-2 tarmogoyf are important!
I mean with a shaman you should have a mana more most at the time. How do you play RUG with 4 Tarmgoyfs? Lol

You don't cast the tarmogoyf at turn 2. First tempo/controll. Goyf comes late.

[Sasan]

@quasimoff i don't see any problem here. 1-2 tarmogoyf are important!
I mean with a shaman you should have a mana more most at the time. How do you play RUG with 4 Tarmgoyfs? Lol

You don't cast the tarmogoyf at turn 2. First tempo/controll. Goyf comes late.

That is true. Goyf is the late game bomb to end the game. Shaman and Delver are removed fairly soon in some games and you still need to push 5-6 damage through to win. I played without Goyfs for a long time and EVERY loss was close and now with Goyf I win these games. He helps when you are out of gas and cannot win early.

So I play the deck like normal RUG delver to the point where I am on topdeck mode. I drop a Goyf and win. Simple as that. That is why Young Pyromancer cannot replace Goyf ;)

Just read my tournament report :-P

[Pdingo]

@ Sasan Kann ich dir nur zustimmen hehe;)

[sherko7]

So I just sold off most of my non-blue cards and have decided to do Delver. I've been choosing between RUG and URW (am currently on UR Delver as a starter while I figure out what I wanna buy in to). Then I came across this deck (thanks Florian for that article!), and I must say I really like the idea. Question is, what are its pros and cons VS. the other tempo decks (RUG, URW and BUG?) aside from the fact that it plays Deathrite Shaman. I really don't like BUG as I really wanna be playing red!

The list I'm toying with on Cockatrice has a creature base of 4 Delver, 4 Goose, 3 DRS, 2 Goyf and it feels great! The deck loses horribly to Death and Taxes though sadly.

[Megadeus]

So I just sold off most of my non-blue cards and have decided to do Delver. I've been choosing between RUG and URW (am currently on UR Delver as a starter while I figure out what I wanna buy in to). Then I came across this deck (thanks Florian for that article!), and I must say I really like the idea. Question is, what are its pros and cons VS. the other tempo decks (RUG, URW and BUG?) aside from the fact that it plays Deathrite Shaman. I really don't like BUG as I really wanna be playing red!

The list I'm toying with on Cockatrice has a creature base of 4 Delver, 4 Goose, 3 DRS, 2 Goyf and it feels great! The deck loses horribly to Death and Taxes though sadly.

Meh. Everyone has their bad MU's. If it seems that bad maybe try some Massacre? Also helps a bit vs Maverick decks and all the other Mom decks in general.

[Sasan]

So I just sold off most of my non-blue cards and have decided to do Delver. I've been choosing between RUG and URW (am currently on UR Delver as a starter while I figure out what I wanna buy in to). Then I came across this deck (thanks Florian for that article!), and I must say I really like the idea. Question is, what are its pros and cons VS. the other tempo decks (RUG, URW and BUG?) aside from the fact that it plays Deathrite Shaman. I really don't like BUG as I really wanna be playing red!

The list I'm toying with on Cockatrice has a creature base of 4 Delver, 4 Goose, 3 DRS, 2 Goyf and it feels great! The deck loses horribly to Death and Taxes though sadly.

Fire Covenant and/or dread of night win single handedly versus DNT.

Your creature base is awesome. It is the same as mine.

Cons concerning other tempo decks? None. It is the best tempo deck in the format. Simple as that.

[Pdingo]

Well i have to say the match up against deathn texas is not bad.
I won still the matches against it(2:1 moest at the time).
Thanks spell snare and more removal;)

The only real bad match up that i found is Lands...

[Sasan]

Well i have to say the match up against deathn texas is not bad.
I won still the matches against it(2:1 moest at the time).
Thanks spell snare and more removal;)

The only real bad match up that i found is Lands...

And even lands is far more winnable for bUrg than for Canadian thanks to our grave hate aka Shaman.

[Pdingo]

Yes that's true but it's still bad. And the best lists plays punishing fire:P

[Sasan]

Yes that's true but it's still bad. And the best lists plays punishing fire:P

Yup, that is right.

[sherko7]

How about the deck's matchup against Jund? Seems a bit harsh, its gonna be hard fighting against P. Fires and Goyfs. Early Delver with counter backup will probably go the mile as long as they don't draw Abrupt Decay.

[Pdingo]

The Jund match up is one of your best match up. It seems hard but that's bot true.
When you play correct you should win;)

[Sasan]

The Jund match up is one of your best match up. It seems hard but that's bot true.
When you play correct you should win;)

After boarding you cannot lose versus Jund :-)

[catmint]

true...any delver deck is highly favoured vs. jund. cant recall losing a game. the only easier matchup i remember is nic fit.

[Star|Scream]

true...any delver deck is highly favoured vs. jund. cant recall losing a game. the only easier matchup i remember is nic fit.

The second sentence is false. Nic Fit has no problem beating tempo decks. It was created specifically to beat RUG.

[Pdingo]

Agree nic fit is the second match up that can be a little bit harder!
It's depends on the version.

[catmint]

The second sentence is false. Nic Fit has no problem beating tempo decks. It was created specifically to beat RUG.

I was obviously trolling. :laugh:
What is scarey that my other statement apparently seems plausible. I thought the others are trolling as well. Whoever thinks jund is a positive matchup is just fooling himself.

[Quasim0ff]

After boarding you cannot lose versus Jund :-)
That is simply incorrect, if the jund player is decent.

Jund is highly favored vs RUG/BURG.

*How do people plan on beating the UWR delver deck, with SFM?

[Pdingo]

@ausimoff
Maybe against rug but not against burg. Its not the same deck. You play a little bit a other playstyle with it.
You have a better match trust me.
I played the deck now so long, that i can say witch is a good and a bad match up.

Jund is a good match.
Nic fit a bader match up.

UWR is a 50/50 match up.
You have to play better than the other to win. No missplays allowed. And nimble is key anyway.

[Star|Scream]

I was obviously trolling. :laugh:
What is scarey that my other statement apparently seems plausible. I thought the others are trolling as well. Whoever thinks jund is a positive matchup is just fooling himself.

Well color me trolled.

[Sasan]

bUrg was designed by the best Threshold players in Germany to beat Jund as they lost with RUG Delver against even bad Jund players So trust me, Jund is a good MU.

[dunk]

I would stop beliving in bullshit like bad matchups when playing a deck like Burg. My only bad matchups are wrong evaluations of situations and missplayed cantrips. But this deck has answers to everything and can built up a fast clock to even crush what are apparently bad matchups.


Anyway, I play this deck for a week or two now. I started with the latest build by Flo Koch ( who plays it on Modo occasionally ) but quickly exchanged some things to adopt to the Modo metagame. I cut the Spell Pierce and the V. Clique from the main and added Goyfs because of obvious reasons ( lost several games because I had no Goyfs in my deck ), then later cut a Goose for a 4th Shaman and the Taiga for another Fetchlands. I love Goose, but at least on Modo he's less versatile and bows down to Combo and opposing Goyfs. And the Taiga is just a trap. Either you can fix your mana with Deathrites or you want to cast another cantrip or counterspell. Taiga on the other hand... is absolutetly hilarious. I won't even begin with how terrible it is in the opener; it gets worse after boarding, it can't Daze and the most annoying thing, it allows your opponent to screw you off blue very well. Sometimes I'd love to have a Bayou in my deck though, as with more Shamans you actually want to abuse them more often... but meh, non - islands suck and I don't see the need to cut a spell for a 19th land.

[Pdingo]

@ Sasan
Thanks! ;)

@ dunkle_pille

To 4 th shaman. You can test him 4 off but i think 3 are the right choice.
To the Taiga. She is very important and i like it very well.
I mean yes randomly you have her in the starthand without any other land.
But then you can still take a mulligan to 6 and easy win. I think bayou is bad.
You don't need more black. Black is only the splash colour. The manafixing of the shaman is the moest activated ability in this deck.

[blablub]

@dunkle stille

Do you have a link to Florian Kochs latest List? I can't find a list with vendilion clique, thx

[DarkJester]

Sasan, dunkle-stille and PDingo:
You guys seem really impressed by the bUrg, aren't you? I would just like to know if there are ANY bad matchups for you at all? You guys seem full of self-esteem...

[dunk]

@blablubb:
http://www.mtgo-stats.com/decks/64913

@Pdingo:
As of now, at least for Magic Online, I like 4 Shaman a lot - this is also why I *consider* the Bayou, thought that is more of a joke / wishful thinking if anything. Of course their main purpose is to speed us up and help to cast spells, but I just like to get the most out of it - it's just amazing.
Haven't missed the Taiga yet - got only 2 play 8 matches since then though.

@Darkjester:
Most of my losses came to play mistakes, mostly a wrong turn 1 decision or a missplayed cantrip. Well ok, sadly more than just those lol. Most of those losses were against weird decks like Imperial Painter, Nic Fit ( with Dungrove Elder and Rancor... yeah ) and Loampox. Imperial Painter is definitely my biggest Nemesis right now, but I've missplayed at least in 2 of those matches to the max. In one I even gave up despite still having outs... was on tilt though.
In general I should be more patient - unless you are on 1 land, Shaman go is a good way to lose a game.

[Sasan]

Sasan, dunkle-stille and PDingo:
You guys seem really impressed by the bUrg, aren't you? I would just like to know if there are ANY bad matchups for you at all? You guys seem full of self-esteem...

Mono Black Discard decks, lands and Manaless dredge are really bad Mus. But a Compost in the SB helps a lot versus dredge and mono black. Lands is also winnable with a good Shaman/Wasteland/Stifle start. These three matchups are around 40-60.

[catmint]

Dunkle_Stille, you are funny.
You play the deck for 2 weeks, apparently win a couple of matches and come to the conclusion that the deck does not have bad matchups since you only lost against randomness or if you made mistakes. This tells us that the way you evaluate decks is based on short term results and self deception, but it does not tell us a lot about the deck.

@Sasan
Can you maybe explain how jund becomes a good matchup compared to candian? The way I see and experienced it: The most important thing against jund are resilient threats. If you have those you have a shot of winning with the "tempo game". The most resilient threats are mongoose and Goyf. Of course deathrite helps you to implement the tempo plan better, but in my experience the tradeoff is he is not a significant threat and does not "turn the matchup around".

[monovfox]

I have been testing the deck out (GP Strasbourg list). I have been very impressed. The only card I don't really like out of their choices is counterspell. Great card, but I think there is something better that I could be playing (either clique, hymn, or misdirection)

[Sasan]

Dunkle_Stille, you are funny.
You play the deck for 2 weeks, apparently win a couple of matches and come to the conclusion that the deck does not have bad matchups since you only lost against randomness or if you made mistakes. This tells us that the way you evaluate decks is based on short term results and self deception, but it does not tell us a lot about the deck.

@Sasan
Can you maybe explain how jund becomes a good matchup compared to candian? The way I see and experienced it: The most important thing against jund are resilient threats. If you have those you have a shot of winning with the "tempo game". The most resilient threats are mongoose and Goyf. Of course deathrite helps you to implement the tempo plan better, but in my experience the tradeoff is he is not a significant threat and does not "turn the matchup around".

First of all, I think that Canadian has a solid matchup versus Jund, especially when played with two dismembers main deck.

bUrg has some slight advantages compared to Canadian against Jund:

- Our Shamans can neutralize theirs
- Decay is a pre board option versus Goyf (and sometimes Lili)
- After boarding Fire Covenant and Submerge seem like a superior package compared to Submerge/Rough.

Cons:
- we have less Goyfs than Canadian but with my 2 Goyf list this disadvantage is not so
much relevant compared to the "Clique list" of Florian Koch.

Summary: bUrg is a bit better than Canadian versus Jund when you play with 2 Goyfs.

[Pdingo]

@darkjester Yes there are bad match ups.
Sasan had written the badest;)

@Sasan
Don't forget the spell snare. It's very important against jund. Anyway i see it's a lot better in this deck than spell pierce.
You have anyway a good match up against combo.
The second goyf against jund is of course better. After sb we can use key card like reanimate to grap a tarmo;)

[monovfox]

Question:

Is nimble mongoose or goyf better in this deck? The question has really been bugging me, and I can't seem to be convinced one way or the other.

[Pdingo]

Nimble is a lot better. You bring him easy to 3/3 and he's cmc 1.
And he has shroud;)
He didnt tap you out.

Other thing with tarmo is he had a better body but he die on everything.
And he's cc is 2.
Sometimes goyf can be a little bit better in a mirror because of the body.

[Sasan]

Question:

Is nimble mongoose or goyf better in this deck? The question has really been bugging me, and I can't seem to be convinced one way or the other.

There is no answer to that. Our 2 Goyfs are late game bombs to finish the game and Mongoose is for the late early game/midgame when you have reached thresh. Mungo is a clock and is there to stress the control player and the midrange deck player (Shroud is the best thing that can happen
to a creature). But bUrg would not work without Goyfs.
So there you have it: They are both building a good team and are staple cards for Canadian/bUrg.

@Pdingo: Good point with the Spell Snares. If I would play Canadian I would play 3 Spell Snares, too. But you are right, in bUrg you can play Spell Snares without needing a Pierce MD as Shaman and Decay make up for that. Shaman is good versus certain combo decks so we have the luxury to play without Pierce MD. Canadian has always to
make a Snare/Pierce split.

[Pdingo]

@sasan
Yes that's true;)

[Sasan]

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26762_The-Triumvirate.html

Before this thread is being neglected, here is a link of a nice article with legacy's best decks and bUrg is mentioned there with my decklist ;-)

I encourage more people to play this wonderful deck.

[Pdingo]

Good article! ;)

[sherko7]

I seem to be having issues with this against UWR Tempo/Delver/Patriot whatever. Early game usually goes to who can get rid of the opponent's threat first. But once they resolve Stoneforge Mystic into Batterskull I usually find it impossible to win afterwards. If they can protect the Living Weapon from Stifle then its usually GG. Same goes for other Stoneblade decks (although the Tempo mirror seems to be the hardest). Any thoughts?

[Pdingo]

Agree the key is to waste them down and use stifle and spell snare against stoneforge when they do playing him.
When you know they play stoneforge in your meta you should have artifact hate like grudge in your sb;)

Nimble is here very good to:)

[Barbed Blightning]

Did some sprucing up of the primer. I've been out of touch of this thread for quite some time, but after skimming the past few pages I think I've gathered some kind of consensus on certain card choices.

Obviously, if there's anything y'all would like to see add just let me know.

[Morte]

After testing various alternative tempo builds like UWR with Geist and SFM and Grixis with Young Pyromancer, I found very interesting a BURG build. I’ve been positively impressed by the combination of Delver, Shaman and Dark Confidant for the creature list.

Dark Confidant is very powerful in a tempo shell in combination with DRS. It can be played early game without being tapped out, creating a very strong board position. With such a low curve and card advantage the deck creates a pressure very difficult to overcome.

The removal pack of 4 Lightning Bolts and 3 Abrupt Decay should handle whatever the opponent can land with our mana denial plan.

My actual list:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay

4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland


Sideboard:

1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Fire Covenant
2 Flusterstorm
3 Pyroblast
3 Submerge
1 Life from the Loam
1 Abrupt Decay

I chose 2 Vendilion Clique to fill the creature slots as it is a good evasive clock and it doesn’t require tapping out with flash. It is a good T2 play after a DRS start. Other candidates for these slots are Nimble Mongoose, Tarmogoyf and Grim Lavamancer. In the end I discarded all of them because I wanted to minimize the weakness to graveyard hate, currently limited to DRS.

Thoughts?

[Pdingo]

Nimble is a lot better in a Temposhell than BoB. BoB get handled anyway^^
FoW with BoB is very bad to... You will lose the *tempo Mirror*
3 Decay are to much because you have enough Counter and bolts anyway. Sometimes i Shuffle the Second Decay back with BS^^

You don't have any real clock in your list...
RUG Plays green for nimble and Tarmo for a hardclock that can't be easy handled.

[Morte]

Thank you Pdingo. From a pure tempo perspective you’re right, but my goal was something different. Like UWR Delver, I’m looking for something maybe slower but with a better mid-lategame. That’s the main reason for the inclusion of Dark Confidant: one of the main weakness of tempo is exactly running out of gas.

More in detail:

BoB get handled anyway: sure, like almost everything else. All my threats are “must answer”, the rational is that the opponent can’t answer everything, especially if Bob sticks doubling my draws.

FoW with BoB is very bad to... You will lose the *tempo Mirror*: That’s true. I considered that, but in the end with 3 FoW the occurrence is not so high game 1. Game 2, you either side out FoWs against fair decks or up to 4 count against combo, where Dark Confidant is most likely going to be unanswered generating a critical mass of counters and a clock.


3 Decay are to much because you have enough Counter and bolts anyway: that could be true in pure tempo decks, but not in tempo midrange. UWR Delver usually maindecks 4 Lightning Bolts and 3 Swords to Plowshares (and often 2-3 Grim Lavamancer in addiction). That allows you to open the way to Geist of Saint Traft. Similarly, if I stick Dark Confidant and get extra draws, I have good probability to be able to remove all possible blockers and use Bob as a beater too.

You don't have any real clock in your list: Delver + DRS or Clique + DRS is 5 damages per turn. The main advantage of running both DRS and Bob in a very low curve deck is that you can really double your threat density with multiple Delvers and DRS dealing damage. Sometimes standard tempo lists with 12-14 creatures and no draw engine fail just because they don’t draw creatures. With this list you draw a lot: if it is the case you can just invest your counters to protect Bob, and be able to attack with Bob himself.

RUG Plays green for nimble and Tarmo for a hardclock that can't be easy handled: sure, in a vacuum; in my meta there are DRS and Rest in Peace everywhere, resiliency to grave hate was exactly one of my goals.

I tested a lot UWR Delver, for that reason; but I wanted something less mana intensive than Stoneforge Mystic and Geist of Saint Traft while retaining the card advantage, hence the wish for Bob. DRS is excellent paired with Bob, and I liked a lot the “all stars” removal package of UWR Delver, here proposed as Bolt + Abrupt Decay.

I think the deck is more interesting than what you think. Just don’t play it as a variant of standard BURG lists. The list is rather a rework of UWR Delver in different colors, exchanging the huge threats of UWR (Batterskull and Geist) and their weaknesses of heavy mana requirement and (Geist) scarce effectiveness in case of unanswered blockers with general purpose, brutal card advantage.

Consider also that general purpose card advantage becomes much stronger games 2 and 3, after you optimized the maindeck, increasing your probability to get your sideboard tools.

[Pdingo]

The thing with geist is he cant get handled easy and is a real clock;)
And bolts and swords together are a cc 1 instant. You dont have a real clock and decay cmc are 2 with diffrent colours.
Clique can maybe good as a 1 off in a burg deck when your meta is combo heavy.You say your deck should be good in the midgame/lategame , then you are in the wrong treath.

And your list and uwr delver are completly diffrener and have other playstyles..

[Morte]

Yes, but on the other hand Geist requires to be tapped out with 3 mana in a deck with 18-19 lands and can be killed by almost any blocker. Bob costs 2 and here you often have extra mana from DRS when you cast it, and from extra land draws later. The choice of Bob means that you renounce to a part of your reactive answer capabilities, but in favor of strong proactive answers: more removals with more mana, thanks to Bob himself. Also the uncounterability and flexibility of Decay (can destroy also artifacts, enchantments and planeswalkers) are relevant.

I agree with you that my deck is quite different from standard BURG, which is purely tempo oriented, and of course from UWR Delver which is in different colors. But I’m absolutely sure that if I’d open another thread people would argue “we already have a BURG tempo thread” “please post in the BURG tempo thread and close this one” and blah blah blah, so I’ll be continuing posting here :smile:

[joenice]

I played Sasan decklist -1 Spell Snare +1 Spell Pierce with slightly different sideboard and I am really impressed by this deck. But what do you guys think about thoughtseize + surgical extraction sideboard? It seems like very strong against combo decks to me and you get another graveyard hate against dredge, reanimator etc. Show and Tell decks usually play Defense Grid game 2 and our soft counters became pretty bad. Same for storm decks, they usually wait, sculpt their hand and discard yours before they go off, sometimes they even play things like Xanthid Swarm against us.

[Sasan]

Ok I can answer that :) Whether you play surgical or nihil in the sb is a matter of taste. Besides versus the obvious grave based combo matchups Nihil shines versus tempo decks playing nimble mongoose - aka the mirror and rug delver. You can easily make their mungo to a 1/1 creature without a problem.

Surgical is the grave hate that is more universal. It can remove Punishing Fire and can be sided in versus all combo decks.

So it is up to you what you play. As I think that the Canadian MU is bit rough, I opt for Nihil.

Concerning Thoughtseizes: It is fair to play with them in the board. That is the old counter versus discard debate. With Thoughtseize you certainly can remove a combo piece but that does not prevent the combo player to draw into a new combo and kill us. RUG Delver has proven us over the last years that it has a great combo MU, even without discard. But if you play 3 Fusterstorms, 0 Spell Pierces and 2 Thoughtseizes in the Sb, then thoughtseize is ok. But remember that we only have black as a splash color and not a main color, so sometimes you do not have black mana for thoughtseize.

@all: A general question: I am not really happy with the primer as it only contains a deck list. I play the deck from the first hour and have playtested a lot for the inventors of the deck and have pushed the deck list forward. I would like to write a better primer with sideboard guide and card choices. Is there a interest for that?

[copywriter]

Yes. There is defiantly an interest for an updated primer.

I've been playing Canadian Threshold for a long time (pre Delver print), but lately I've been playing around with this deck. No major testing, just reading, watching YouTube and generally thinking about different angles. BURG is interesting, but it lacks information and stats for people who haven't tested a lot for themselves. If you can provide that, the world will thank you :)

I'm taking your list to a tournament tomorrow. Only change is +1 Surgical for -1 Nilhill. Punishing Fire is the reason. Looking forward to trying it out.

[copywriter]

Any general advice for the deck? I've read through the entire tread and other articles, but it's always good to have someone who's played the deck a lot sum things up.

I really like the 6 top-tier removal spells.
I really like Fire Convenant and Submerge in the sideboard.
I really like Spell Snare.

I'm a bit worried about the mana base (quite normal I guess for people not familiar with the list).

If no other pointers are made before the tournament starts in 10 hours I'll play the deck like Canadian Thresh, only a bit slower and more controlling.

Thanks for any input.

[TheKingslayer]

I played RUG for a while, then tried to develop a grixis deck to accommodate for the combo saturated meta game in my city. I then jammed the two together to try this out a few months ago. I've really enjoyed the deck immensely. I do possess a notable skepticism one tiny aspect of the deck- the taiga vs. badlands debate. All though the taiga may be able to cast more spells overall, I almost feel that it is not actually better than Badlands. I simply find that in tight play, taiga exhausts its uses rather quickly and that using Deathrite activations is too important to use as often as possible in order to close the game out in a timely manner.

Consider this scenario I've been faced with a couple of times-

I have U Sea, Taiga, and Deathrite Shaman in play and spell snare in hand. I pass the turn to my opponent- all of my permanents are untapped. My opponent plays Stoneforge mystic- knowing that Batterskull simply spells certain doom for us, I am forced (no pun intended) to spell snare the Stoneforge mystic using my one blue land ( and only black land.) In the aftermath, I'm left with a near useless Deathrite activation at the end of my opponents turn. I essentially 'skipped an attack step with Deathrite.' Which, in both cases, cost me the game while my opponent ends the game resting at one life.

I've had similar scenarios where I am awkwardly funneled into choosing between activating Deathrite for a relevant two damage, or, knowing my opponent will crack their fetchland when I tap out all blue sources, leaving mana up to stifle a precious fetchland. Tapping out for also allows for a rather opportune moment to kill my delvers/ deathrite itself.

I also think that if people become attuned to the deck's presence, they might start targeting the only two black lands with their wastelands in order to nearly invalidate one of our creatures.

Think about it, ya'll.

[Pdingo]

I think we don't Need 3 black manasources.
Why? Yes shaman -2 life each tourn can be cool but when you Play against wasteland can that happens. But it's a rare Situation.
Important is: Black is just the splash!
We need more green then black and more red!
I see black only in a Combo Match up over green.

Feel free to post

[TheKingslayer]

I think we don't Need 3 black manasources.
Why? Yes shaman -2 life each tourn can be cool but when you Play against wasteland can that happens. But it's a rare Situation.
Important is: Black is just the splash!
We need more green then black and more red!
I see black only in a Combo Match up over green.

Feel free to post

I think you can say that any color is just the splash, really. The most important color is obviously blue. As far as land configuration, I think that volcanic island is the least valuable land out of the blue sources (of course the non blue dual is the worst land overall.) For this reason, I think that having 8 total fetches is best for having a higher probability of being able to choose whatever land you need in tight situations. I also tested the deck with 19 lands for quite some time, but felt that it was somewhat excessive with Deathrite, and I missed the extra counterspell I used to run in RUG. So, I feel that we are forced to sacrifice a dual land slot to patch up tight mana play with a non blue dual.

I feel that Volcanic is the land with the least value to it, because of it's casting parameters of only allowing one to cast one of the twelve threats in the deck. Whereas tropical island will cast all 12, and Underground sea will cast eight. Being a tempo deck, I feel it is most important to drop a turn one threat. So, I'm assuming that I will rarely ever try to start the game with Volcanic island, and leave it to be used at opportune moments to cast lightning bolts (the only maindecked red spell in the entire maindeck.) So, red is used as mostly a one shot color in order to clear blockers, annoying creatures and steal the final points of damage in the game. I also believe it is the least necessary of all of the colors to have 3 lands devoted to its color of mana. It has very little long term value, whereas green allows you to drop late game Mongeese and late game Deathrites. So, with these parameters, I chose to drop one volcanic island from the list and I originally replaced it with a Taiga. However, I'm beginning to believe Badlands is the better dual. As I said before, I know that Taiga can ultimately cast more spells than badlands, but I feel that Badlands can allow for much tighter play form the scenarios listed above. Taiga possess very little longterm value over badlands other than allowing one to cast top decked Mongeese, while badlands is a very important resource for closing games with Deathrite. I don't believe that the -2 shaman activation is 'cool,' but rather I believe that it is entirely necessary and very important to use at every opportunity given, since we are a tempo deck that is required to close the game out before it falls out of our favor. Mongoose is horrible in the early game, fantastic in the early-midgame, and then loses value once the opponent begins landing goyfs, linger souls tokens, and other blockers. This is where deathrite activations are most important, as they circumvent blocking forces when mongoose loses its value. Black mana turns Deathrite into a threat, and I feel that it is important to have 12 threats and not 8 in the deck.

In terms of playing very tightly and on only two lands, I strongly feel that opening with a tropical and dropping a badlands second turn can more often be the most efficient play. It grants you the possibility of dropping any of your 12 threats turn one as it allows for activating Deathrite (or bolting creatures during an opponents attack step) while simultaneously holding blue mana up for stifle, brainstorm, and other counterspells. Ending an opponents turn, tapping usea and Deathrite to shave two life from their total, then having them swords to plowshares the Deathrite or your flipped Delver in response hurts a great deal, especially when you're left staring at an untapped taiga in play with a spell pierce in hand. Taiga does not have as much long term value as badlands. Once a mongoose is loose, it requires no mana intensive upkeep. Deathrite does require intensive mana upkeep, in order to remain an important threat. And spell snaring a tarmogoyf or stoneforge mystic with your U sea and ending the turn tapping your taiga for a 2 life gain from Deathrite just does not interact synergistically with BURG's game plan. The two life you could have taken from your opponent that turn is way too valuable. And so is the ability of taking two life every turn while maintaining the ability to counter important threats.

To me, I feel that black is more integral to closing games, and the configuration of playing efficiently with only two lands in play would best be complimented with Badlands over Taiga, which I hope I conveyed thoroughly through the scenarios described in my previous post.

I hope I have been articulate enough in conveying my reasoning.
Creatures 12

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose

Spells 30

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt decay

Lands 18
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands

SB

2 Fire Covenant (Fuck yeah!)
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Dures (there's sooo much combo at my meta)
2 Tarmogoyf

[Barbed Blightning]

I like the manabase, I would put the goyfs in the main, like everyone else seems to be doing.

In the SB, I'd play two artifact/ enchantment hate. I like 1-1 grudge and grip. Vortex has been garbage for me as of late

[TheKingslayer]

I like the manabase, I would put the goyfs in the main, like everyone else seems to be doing.

In the SB, I'd play two artifact/ enchantment hate. I like 1-1 grudge and grip. Vortex has been garbage for me as of late

What has been stumping vortex for you? It's helped me shore up my control match ups quite a bit, and I feel that it's way better in this deck than RUG.

[Barbed Blightning]

What has been stumping vortex for you? It's helped me shore up my control match ups quite a bit, and I feel that it's way better in this deck than RUG.

Grip and Grudge are similarly good against control while also helping vs random decks like lands, mud, Tezz, etc. That and RR is the hardest combination to muster up in this deck.

I'd also say that true control is pretty much dead right now and that this deck already has a stellar match against control to begin with.

[Pdingo]

Well i dont like to play more black then red..still think its wrong..but each player are different.
At the Sb: 2 goyfs in the sb are wrong that meebs two slots for nothing. We need the sb for better things.
Play him 1-2 main or no goyf;)

[sherko7]

Been wondering how this deck performs against an open meta. Still trying to decide on whether I should invest on this or UWR. :smile:

[Pdingo]

You should win against a open meta;)
But yes it's a hard decision:P

[Sasan]

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26647-bUrg-Reloaded-*New-and-Official-Thread*

New Primer ;)