an interesting 'Azorius' interactions and synergies package i would like to discuss.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I have been looking at a set of a few different cards that have some fairly interesting synergistic qualities that happen to all work well together, at least to a fair degree. here:

1-3x Memory Lapse (Part of original package.)
2-3x Predict (Part of original package.)
1-4x Enlightened Tutor (Part of original package.)
4x Brainstorm (Part of original package.)
3-4x Sensei's Divining Top (Part of original package.)

1-4x Counterbalance (Suggested by Greenpoe)
1x-4x Portent (My addition)

I would like to start a discussion on these interactions in a few ways. At this time i must return to work but will be back on later tonight to join in on the topic and update just what i mean when i say 'in a few ways.' Meanwhile, i would like to have this looked at in relationship to uw and uwr miracle.. thank you.

THANKS AGAIN!!!


-ABC

EDIT: after work now, I thought about it for a while and finally decided that it may be best to build around the package (turning it into a skeleton rather than a "package") rather than trying to force a skeleton into the package space allowance. Maybe think on that, comments, etc. All constructive comments are indeed welcome.

[Greenpoe]

Don't forget Counterbalance, but Memory Lapse is subpar and not worth playing just because of Predict.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Memory Lapse is subpar and not worth playing just because of Predict.

The card going back on top basically creates card disadvantage and a loss of tempo, basically time walks them, and that's without Predict. I understand that it is not Counterspell, but in my small amount of testing has shown that it has never been much worse than Counterspell, and in fact has been better in my experience against the more tempo lists. Lastly, it only requires (1)(U), as opposed to double blue. Not a huge thing, but it's been relevant a couple of times.


Memory Lapse is better than remand, Mana Leak, and pretty much any other counterspell that costs 1U.


Also, I was talking about cards that actively participate with Predict, and I mentioned that this is in reference to UW/UW(r) Miracle, so yes, it will have CB. So, I guess what I am trying to say is that I do understand it alone is without a doubt, sub par. However, Protean Hulk sucked until it was shown to have potential when used with another card.

Also, could you actually give me specifics on why/how it is sub-par? Just saying that it is has no real depth and doesn't encourage further conversation. I'm not trying to be difficult, but I will NOT drop it just yet as an option and idea until I feel that all possibilities have been exhausted and it just isn't good enough, or until I get it right.

Bear in mind, this package, if used correctly, can be defensive or offensive.

Please, more comments, suggestions, and thoughts are appreciated.

-ABC

EDIT: Portent is an excellent option for this particular package. Anyone care to help me out here?

[TsumiBand]

The card going back on top basically creates card disadvantage and a loss of tempo, basically time walks them, and that's without Predict. I understand that it is not Counterspell, but in my small amount of testing has shown that it has never been much worse than Counterspell, and in fact has been better in my experience against the more tempo lists. Lastly, it only requires (1)(U), as opposed to double blue. Not a huge thing, but it's been relevant a couple of times.


Memory Lapse is better than remand, Mana Leak, and pretty much any other counterspell that costs 1U.


Also, I was talking about cards that actively participate with Predict, and I mentioned that this is in reference to UW/UW(r) Miracle, so yes, it will have CB. So, I guess what I am trying to say is that I do understand it alone is without a doubt, sub par. However, Protean Hulk sucked until it was shown to have potential when used with another card.

Also, could you actually give me specifics on why/how it is sub-par? Just saying that it is has no real depth and doesn't encourage further conversation. I'm not trying to be difficult, but I will NOT drop it just yet as an option and idea until I feel that all possibilities have been exhausted and it just isn't good enough, or until I get it right.

Bear in mind, this package, if used correctly, can be defensive or offensive.

Please, more comments, suggestions, and thoughts are appreciated.

-ABC

EDIT: Portent is an excellent option for this particular package. Anyone care to help me out here?

I'm not entirely certain that I disagree, but the mention of Portent gives me... pause. I'm going to pretend like I'm not on a troll thread lol, but if Portent were ever a card worth looking it, it has largely been superceded by Ponder and/or Serum Visions / Preordain. I see what you did there in regard to trying to work in the Predict / Lapse technology into a unified package, but you have to ask yourself why it's worth playing a slow-trip like Portent to make Memory Lapse stronger, when you could just be casting one spell to completely get rid of some garbage you don't want to resolve.

In fairness, I have never quite understood why a card like Memory Lapse is regarded as bad, except that the countered spell can be cast again next turn, so presumably if you did not want it to resolve, you would have simply played a hard counter and let the thing hit the bin. I can understand wanting to use it as a tempo controller; I thought that Lapse of Certainty would see play in Kithkin back in the Lorwyn days, but it didn't really get there. It seems like a deck such as Merfolk could be aggressive enough to make a case for Memory Lapse since it could potentially Time Walk an opponent, but that deck isn't exactly hurting for Blue sources. Maybe a UR Delver deck would be able to get mileage out of a Memory Lapse effect in place of other counters. It's probably more playable than the Miracle Time Walk, anyway (whatever it's called, Derp the Aeons or something). But again, a good Legacy manabase shouldn't have a lot of trouble having access to plenty of both colors on turn 2, by which point you aren't necessarily reaping the full benefit of a "less hard" counter like Memory Lapse.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Of all the cantrips you listed, none allow me to manipulate an opponent's library except for Portent. Yes, its slow comparatively as far as cantripping is concerned, but the manipulation of either library is very valuable and relevant. I understand you peeps don't agree that it can be good, but I am going to continue. Would someone tell me where to post to get input for a new deck idea but no complete list or even a complete skeleton (yes, this one)? I would prefer only helpful advice and suggestions. If a mod would maybe even just move the thread, idk. Help?

-ABC

[TsumiBand]

Of all the cantrips you listed, none allow me to manipulate an opponent's library except for Portent. Yes, its slow comparatively as far as cantripping is concerned, but the manipulation of either library is very valuable and relevant. I understand you peeps don't agree that it can be good, but I am going to continue. Would someone tell me where to post to get input for a new deck idea but no complete list or even a complete skeleton (yes, this one)? I would prefer only helpful advice and suggestions. If a mod would maybe even just move the thread, idk. Help?

-ABC

You're right, my bad for summarizing points about Portent that were made like 5 years ago on the Meathooks thread.

I even tried to say I was with there with you on the Memory Lapse thing, I've always understood it as a potentially effective means of giving yourself +1 turn until end of turn, but never mind.

You're trying to haze the opponent and/or get card advantage out of it by using 2 cards, Portent and somethingElse, whether it's Predict or Lapse or whatever. When instead, you could play disruption that doesn't rely on Portent to become better. So you want to Predict away an opponent's bomb or something? After you already Lapsed it? That's not tech, that's trying to assemble a two-card combo that roughly equates to +0 CA - you spent a Lapse and a Predict to draw two cards, and the opponent is no longer 'hindered' by drawing the spell you just countered.

Portent + Predict is the same boat. You put their one card as far away from the top as possible, then Predict the top card to, what, put their best card closest to the top? And it still took you two cards to draw two.

[clavio]

You're right, my bad for summarizing points about Portent that were made like 5 years ago on the Meathooks thread.

I even tried to say I was with there with you on the Memory Lapse thing, I've always understood it as a potentially effective means of giving yourself +1 turn until end of turn, but never mind.

You're trying to haze the opponent and/or get card advantage out of it by using 2 cards, Portent and somethingElse, whether it's Predict or Lapse or whatever. When instead, you could play disruption that doesn't rely on Portent to become better. So you want to Predict away an opponent's bomb or something? After you already Lapsed it? That's not tech, that's trying to assemble a two-card combo that roughly equates to +0 CA - you spent a Lapse and a Predict to draw two cards, and the opponent is no longer 'hindered' by drawing the spell you just countered.

Portent + Predict is the same boat. You put their one card as far away from the top as possible, then Predict the top card to, what, put their best card closest to the top? And it still took you two cards to draw two.

I'm pretty bad at Magic but I think it's actually +1 CA? You counter their spell (1 for 1) then draw 2 cards off of predict.

But yeah, there's no way it's better than mana leak + ponder.

[TraxDaMax]

Seems cool, but Brainstorm/top in response means you aren't going to predict anything but actually help them filter out junk.
If you insist on memory lapse though, thoughtscour could be an option.

[Malchar]

So you want to Predict away an opponent's bomb or something? After you already Lapsed it? That's not tech, that's trying to assemble a two-card combo that roughly equates to +0 CA - you spent a Lapse and a Predict to draw two cards, and the opponent is no longer 'hindered' by drawing the spell you just countered.

Portent + Predict is the same boat. You put their one card as far away from the top as possible, then Predict the top card to, what, put their best card closest to the top? And it still took you two cards to draw two.

Memory Lapse on its own is always a one for one. The best way to think of it is a Counterspell for :1::u: except that next turn the opponent is going to topdeck another copy of the thing you just countered.

A successful Predict is always a two for one. Combined with Memory Lapse, you get three for two, and the Memory Lapse gets slightly upgraded to actual Counterspell.

Portent is also a one for one, but it's a slow-trip. Combining it with Predict also gives you three for two. I think that fact that it's a slow-trip is highly exaggerated. Most of the time, it doesn't matter that you aren't drawing the card right away because you're going to be tapped out regardless.

I like the shell but there is one fundamental problem. On its own, Memory Lapse is great, but it's hard to justify running it over Counterspell. By comparison, Memory Lapse ends up just being a tempo card. The problem is that if you have :2::u::u: open to cast Memory Lapse into Predict, then you aren't really a tempo deck. With that kind of mana, it's pretty hard to justify not using something more powerful let alone Counterspell. You also run into a similar problem casting Portent into Predict on the same turn. And you really do have to cast Predict on the same turn as something else, otherwise you're just cycling Predict. I just feel like even at it's best, it's not enough of an upgrade over the standard Brainstorm + fetchland to make up for the times when it's just strictly worse.

The other problem is that it's very bad in the mirror. Brainstorm or Sensei's Divining Top will wreck Predict, which is the only way that you have to get card advantage.

Also, how does enlightened tutor fit into all of this? Is it really worth it to cast enlightened tutor just for top? You get -1 card for casting the tutor, and -1 for the top which just sits in play. Once you have a top or brainstorm, the tutor is nice as a shuffle effect, but I don't think it's worth it to play something that reads ":w:, Discard this card: Shuffle your library" when you could just play an actual threat instead. The other problem is that most of the cards in a typical Enlightened Tutor toolbox are rather lackluster. They sit in play and provide immediate card disadvantage (in addition to the tutor). They usually only provide value by turning off your opponent's cards, which is hit-or-miss. I feel like these kinds of toolboxes should only be used for more heavily dedicated control decks like Counterbalance, miracles, or stoneblade, in which case you run into the same problem as before where Memory Lapse is at its worst.

[TsumiBand]

Maybe my understanding of Memory Lapse vs. Card Advantage is flawed, I don't understand it to be CA if it doesn't actually get rid of something. It seems more like tempo to me, but I have trouble with nomenclature and jargon and shit.

It's sort of like saying that Holy Day is a one-mana Wrath, but only for one turn. And just has you should probably play Terminus and not Holy Day, you should play a hard counter as opposed to a soft one, whenever possible. If there's no Predict or Portent to 'combo' with the counter, you've spent a card to delay the inevitable. If you have board position, that's great. If not, you spent 1U to play a land, maybe a Counterbalance?

[clavio]

Maybe my understanding of Memory Lapse vs. Card Advantage is flawed, I don't understand it to be CA if it doesn't actually get rid of something. It seems more like tempo to me, but I have trouble with nomenclature and jargon and shit.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Card_advantage

If you and your opponent both start with 5 cards and you go Memory Lapse -> Predict, you will have 5 cards and your opponent will have 4.


On its own, Memory Lapse is great

It's mediocre at best.

[TsumiBand]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Card_advantage

If you and your opponent both start with 5 cards and you go Memory Lapse -> Predict, you will have 5 cards and your opponent will have 4.

If we operate on the idea that card selection is important to the discussion though (per the article you linked me to), then it's still problematic if we assume that Memory Lapse won't combo 100% of the time with the Portent/Predict package, though. So if I'm down a card (Memory Lapse) and the opponent is down a card (someSpellWorthCountering) and the opponent knows they will draw someSpellWorthCountering, then how is that not the equivalent of granting your opponent "virtual card advantage"? You have to have Portent/Predict/maybe Jace's fateseal/to make it any good. That's a dependency that Counterspell doesn't have.

[(nameless one)]

It's mediocre at best.

I'm not saying it's the best card but it's good in Limited.

Legacy however...

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I dont mean to come across as an idiot (although it does occur more often than i would like to admit), but doesnt the current metagame at least suggest the idea that on top of their library may actually be better than in the 'yard to be flashed back via snappy or Past in Flames? Could there possibly be other reasons that make Memory Lapse a reasonable choice in place of Counterspell? I am researching other possibilities to take portent's place (I revisited the traditional cantrips list and found that Preordain may be able to be used instead), but as you may have guessed, there is not much left to be discovered.

Btw, we aren't talking about a set of lapses, just 1, 2 max. I feel that it time walks more often than not, and it doesnt get worse as the game progresses. Btw, I found out how funny it is to memory lapse a force of will yesterday. they had a topless bob on the board. Heh, time walked 'im (apparently drew a land and played it (lol @ Bobby-Boy), and said go.). So after the dust settles, the relevant part of the game-state was this: I had quasi-duressed a CB (by pitching it to FoW. Don't get to see their hand, but im not sure that matters as much as other ppl might think.) and knocked him down a total of 6 life after the bob-flip on his upkeep. Plays like these make me believe this can work, even if it takes a lot of time. It is just clunky atm, but I am sure there is a way to get there eventually.

Its been so fun to use as long as it lines up to what the situation is demanding, i just have to find a way to boost it into a more competitive idea instead of this...whatever it is, it needs to be better/faster/streamlined and consistent. See? Idiot.


-ABC

[pavlaugh]

Memory Lapse fits best in an aggressive, tempo-oriented deck like one of the Delver variants or even Merfolk. Things like Predict or Portent are just too cute, IMO. You're devoting too many slots to underpowered cantrips in hopes of landing a two-card, 4-cc "combo" that just draws you two cards and counters a spell. (You might as well just play a Show & Tell and win the game.)

Further, Memory Lapse does not fit very well in a control-based deck because those decks don't take significant advantage of the virtual time walk. The concept is similar to why you don't board Submerge in a control deck but you do in Delver/Merfolk.

If you can fit Memory Lapse and other tempo cards like Temporal Spring into a Delver-based deck, well, my hat is off to you, Sir. But I suspect the utility of Lightning Bolt / Forked Bolt / Chain Lightning is just greater.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Memory Lapse fits best in an aggressive, tempo-oriented deck like one of the Delver variants or even Merfolk. Things like Predict or Portent are just too cute, IMO. You're devoting too many slots to underpowered cantrips in hopes of landing a two-card, 4-cc "combo" that just draws you two cards and counters a spell. (You might as well just play a Show & Tell and win the game.)

Further, Memory Lapse does not fit very well in a control-based deck because those decks don't take significant advantage of the virtual time walk. The concept is similar to why you don't board Submerge in a control deck but you do in Delver/Merfolk.

If you can fit Memory Lapse and other tempo cards like Temporal Spring into a Delver-based deck, well, my hat is off to you, Sir. But I suspect the utility of Lightning Bolt / Forked Bolt / Chain Lightning is just greater.

Well, freaking finally! Thank you. That is honestly the first explanation that has made sense-and keep your hat on. I may try something like this in a more friendly list, say a UG Madness list. If I can get something drafted i can practice up and get a feel for the idea. I like these cards so I am biased. Would a mod wanna close this thread? When i get that practice time in i will open a new thread in the casual forum until and unless it begins to be competitive.

Thank you,

-ABC

[Hellgrammite]

Thought I would resurrect this a bit with printing of a few cards that could make this deck a bit more fun, concise and even a little bit competitive.

1) Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver - lots of synergy, wrecks control/mirror, possibly finisher
2) Unexpectedly Absent - Kind of like a -Memory Lapse/Swords to Exile/Detention Sphere- blend all in one.

These two alone really want to make me put this deck into an Esper control shell. Probably miracles. Lets see what other cards we have discussed and can consider:

-Portent
-Predict
-Brainstorm
-Psychic Surgery
-Liliana of the Veil
-Memory Lapse
-Submerge
-Jace, the Mind Sculptor
-Thoughtseize
-Force of Will
-Counterbalance
-Sensei's Divining Top
-Terminus
-Counterspell
-Entreat the Angels
-Snapcaster Mage
-Vendilion Clique
-Azorius Charm
-Noxious Revival
-Spell Pierce

Still trying to get a decklist together, but a UWb miracle shell might be in order.