SCG increases the price of FoW

[Nidd]

Link (http://sales.starcitygames.com/search.php?substring=Force+of+Will&t_all=All&start_date=2010-01-29&end_date=2012-04-22&order_1=finish&limit=25&action=Show%2BDecks&card_qty[1]=1&auto=Y)

Apparently, it went from 65$ to 99$. We are talking about a 50% price increase.

[Mr.C]

Something something market demand.

[Tammit67]

Similarly, Jace $40 over the past week or two. While I'm hesitant to point at SCG as the reason, I have no alternative. It seems unlikely a card stable at $110 for a good while (or climbing slowly) suddenly jumps over the course of a week, along with Force doing something similar, simply due to demand.

[.Ix]

Jesus christ. Jace also went up 50%, from $99 to $149. Haven't followed SCG's prices for LED but it's now at $99.

[Grand Superior]

Damn, this might convince me to part with my recently bought second playset of Force of Will. I bought four extra FoW at $55 apiece just for the convenience of not having to switch my playset around my two active blue decks. With this, now I might just sell those FoW and buy the rest of Jund or something.

Good Lord, these price increases are getting ridiculous.

[Oiolosse]

I really hope some savvy, indecent, enterprising young Chinaman prints functional proxies at 1/100th of the price.

EDIT: Polluted delta shot up another 20 bucks as well.

[WorstBandNameEver]

FOW's jump is a bit surprising. JTMS on the other hand is an iconic card that is wanted by casual to competitive players. That one is less surprising. TCGplayer creeped up to 150ish for NM on JTMS within a few days. There are still plenty of playsets of force at NM for 62-70 I think.

[Mr.C]

I really hope some savvy, indecent, enterprising young Chinaman prints functional proxies at 1/100th of the price.

EDIT: Polluted delta shot up another 20 bucks as well.

I'm surprised there aren't. Printing perfect forgeries would be akin to printing money.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

I'm surprised there aren't. Printing perfect forgeries would be akin to printing money.

Yeah...this is one thing I'm surprised hasn't caught on. Counterfeiting money is incredibly difficult, but I'd assume anyone with access to a print shop could fabricate Magic cards, especially the older ones, with a bit of study. Not something like fake Lotuses to make tons of money, but some simple utility cards for your friends to play with or maybe to sell. Nobody carefully scrutinizes the average Revised dual, especially during a tournament. Would be easy to pass off.

Makes you actually wonder how many forgeries could be running amok already.

[Megadeus]

Yeah...this is one thing I'm surprised hasn't caught on. Counterfeiting money is incredibly difficult, but I'd assume anyone with access to a print shop could fabricate Magic cards, especially the older ones, with a bit of study. Not something like fake Lotuses to make tons of money, but some simple utility cards for your friends to play with or maybe to sell. Nobody carefully scrutinizes the average Revised dual, especially during a tournament. Would be easy to pass off.

Makes you actually wonder how many forgeries could be running amok already.

This. I always wondered, not for resale purposes, but just tourney use purposes, if someone were to get a high level proxy, who the hell would know? It isnt like people are taking close looks at your cards at any time during a tourney.

[slave]

I'd be surprised if no one who hasn't already done it.
A good non-foil forgery might be pretty damn hard to pick, especially when printing of some of the cards I have seems to be a fairly well controlled, yet variable process.

Just look at the 2nd hand market for vintage guitars. Many of the forged gats and basses fetch a lot more than they're worth, simply because the forger's are in some case very good at replicating, and ageing said guitars.
Imagine a whole lot of "Played" condition LED's, Forces, Wastelands etc. Forgeries are gonna be easier to spot if they're minty fresh I would think, an aged card could sneak past a bit easier I would think....

All that said, if someone ever goes out and does this and has a whole lot of merch to sell at reasonable prices? - I'll buy whatever you print. LOL. :laugh:

[Nidd]

Would be an interesting way to protest against the reserved list - I don't want to motivate anyone to do this, but, you know...

I simply don't get it. They increased the price by 50%. 50 bloody percent! I'd like to know how the hell you can justify this!

[xfxf]

Monopoly?

But really, this sucks.

[WorstBandNameEver]

They don't just raise their selling price, they do raise their buying price too. For example, they now buy JTMS at $100. They are buying FOW at $60.

[Kayradis]

Look at the foil JTMS. I remember buying a SP foil one for 200 this summer and re-selling it for 450 this fall. I should have waited...

Foil Liliana of the Veil is also at 200$ right now...

Is the format coming back with more strenght than ever?

[AEnesidem]

I really, really don't get it, this has to have something to do with SCG. Here in europe LED is still at 50 and force too, Jace is still around 80 euro's. It's only after starcitygames ups their prices that prices start climbing slowly here. But starcitygames are always the first ones to increase their prices.

[bruizar]

The format was never weak. Legacy is still the best format for eternal players.

[JanoschEausH]

I don't know who buys at SCG anyways, except a diverse population of trust fund babies. Who the hell is willing to pay 20% price premium for mostly any card? Buy your stuff at Magiccardmarket - You can get a playset FoW for about 50$ per copy there (EX Condition)...

[Kayradis]

I do agree that SCG drives the price aggressively up too often. But it's all based on the market. The bigger the demand is, the higher the price is.
I guess we call that capitalism?

Still, I wouldn't be surprised to see FoW reprinted in the next FTV.

[Piceli89]

Starcitygames = legalized cardboard mafia. It's really astonishing how they can profit with such ridiculous price because of dumbasses actually willing to cash out those sums of money without blinking an eye.

Just boycott them, buy from Europe/have a trip in Europe for a big event to buy stuff (really, 100$ against 45 euros for Force of Will?), or acquire from privates.

[GoblinSettler]

Still, I wouldn't be surprised to see FoW reprinted in the next FTV.

Or maybe they just found out that it is not reprinted.

[Erdvermampfa]

Or maybe they just found out that it is not reprinted.

I've quite shaken off the feeling that SCG has a lot more access to information regarding upcoming prints and reprints of cards. I wouldn't be surprised at all if someone revealed some kind of direct bondage between wizards and scg...

[SpikeyMikey]

Or maybe they just found out that it is not reprinted.

This was my first thought upon seeing this thread.

I've thought about the forgery thing before. The problem is, I don't have the know how to do it and I wouldn't really be interested in trying to make a business out of it; at least, not to the point where it would be worth buying a printing press and spending a couple months educating myself and perfecting the process.

You'd have to diversify your distribution methods, some random no name suddenly selling off thousands of dual lands would trip warning bells. And slowly leaking them out seems like way too much work. Not that the money wouldn't be good, but I prefer the ease of my current job, even if I could make more peddling old Legacy cards. I know there are counterfeit cards out there, I remember reading an article on it a few years back, it even talked about counterfeit sealed product from Asia. Link: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/feature/209

But yeah, I hope the forgers out there kick up the pace a bit. I don't really care if my dual lands are real, as long as I can use them to play with and they look better than sharpie on the back of a junk common.

[(nameless one)]

I've quite shaken off the feeling that SCG has a lot more access to information regarding upcoming prints and reprints of cards. I wouldn't be surprised at all if someone revealed some kind of direct bondage between wizards and scg...

Of course they're connected in some way. It's like the unseen bond. WotC makes money off of SCG and SCG does the same with WotC.

I wouldn't be surprised if SCG was behind the whole "closing the loophole on Reserved list" movement. This enables SCG to monopolize eternal cards while WotC still gets SCG's business.

[Asthereal]

They up the price because people buy the cards for that higher price.
If people don't, they will lower the price again.
It's not that complicated.

Let's say you have a diner, where many people come for a cup of coffee.
You sell your coffee at $2 per cup. Lots of people drink it.
Wouldn't you ever wonder if you'd sell the same amount of coffee if you asked $2,50?
If people'd buy the coffee anyway, you'd make more money if you asked for $0,50 more.

SCG does what any normal shop would do: figure out how to make money.
If they'd stop doing that, they'd go bankrupt at some stage.

[Tylert]

They up the price because people buy the cards for that higher price.
If people don't, they will lower the price again.
It's not that complicated.

Lert's say you have a diner, where many people come for a cup of coffee.
You sell your coffee at $2 per cup. Lots of people drink it.
Wouldn't you ever wonder if you'd sell the same amount of coffee if you asked $2,50?
If people'd buy the coffee anyway, you'd make more money if you asked for $0,50 more.

SCG does what any normal shop would do: figure out how to make money.
If they'd stop doing that, they'd go bankrupt at some stage.

It's not exactly that. To sell cards, SCG needs to have some supply. no cards = No money.
If a card sells to fast for them to keep some in the inventory, they have to raise the buy price so people sell to them. If they keep the same selling price, then they will lower their margin, so they rise the selling price...

[clavio]

This is fucking ridiculous. It's really hard to get my non-legacy friends to take the plunge when the buy in is so high.


I've quite shaken off the feeling that SCG has a lot more access to information regarding upcoming prints and reprints of cards. I wouldn't be surprised at all if someone revealed some kind of direct bondage between wizards and scg...

They significantly raised their buy prices right before the Zen "priceless treasures". They know what's up.


I'd be surprised if no one who hasn't already done it.

That sentence is a fucking puzzle.

[Asthereal]

It's not exactly that. To sell cards, SCG needs to have some supply. no cards = No money.
If a card sells to fast for them to keep some in the inventory, they have to raise the buy price so people sell to them. If they keep the same selling price, then they will lower their margin, so they rise the selling price...
In short, they try to make money.
Of course your explanation is more precise, but it all boils down to commercial thinking.
If they do this wrong, they go out of business. So they do this right.

Of course I'd rather pay $2,00 for my coffee, but I prefer to have the chance to pay $2,50 for my coffee than to not be able to buy coffee at all.

And seriously, there's MCM, eBay, local traders and I know not what to get your cards from. If SCG prices itself out of the market, we wil just get cards elsewhere. If it turns out that everyone follows the price increase from SCG, AND we all keep buying, this just means they are right to increase the price, and we should stop wining. :wink:

[ReAnimator]

Ok for the people suggesting that you could easily counterfeit cards, you are sadly misinformed. There used to be a lot of counterfeiting in the 90's but the cards never looked good, or felt remotely close.

You can't duplicate what cards look like on a laser or injet printer, the types of large offset printers that cards are printed on are worth millions of dollars and are larger than your average house. Also the cardstock will never be right either, you can't just buy that stuff at staples, you ever rip a card in half? there is a layer of blue paper in the middle of every card, it's not just normal printer cardstock.

If someone was to print realistic passable counterfeits you'd need access to a real printing warehouse, order the correct stock, have all the die cutting set up etc. It would have to be done by a group of people who are all in on it who already run this sort of operation, where would the incentive be to commit a major crime and conspiracy with many people as opposed to just running a large scale print shop and doing normal jobs? and at the volumes it would take to actually do this profitably you think no one would notice that there are now hundreds and thousands of extra cards on the market? cause otherwise it's not really worth doing.
The only way you could possibly do this is if you did it in china and bribed the right people, while having a bunch of connections. There have been a lot of counterfeit Pokemon and Yu-gi-oh cards done that way, but they were never passable other than to 8 year olds.

[ReAnimator]

Of course they're connected in some way. It's like the unseen bond. WotC makes money off of SCG and SCG does the same with WotC.

I wouldn't be surprised if SCG was behind the whole "closing the loophole on Reserved list" movement. This enables SCG to monopolize eternal cards while WotC still gets SCG's business.


Ben B at SCG has publicly stated he was flow to Wotc headquarters with a lot of the other big retailers like T&T and advised Wotc to abolish the reserve list, he is totally against it. JFC calm down with these conspiracy theories they are nonsense and totally dismissed by you know actual facts and things that happened.

[Oiolosse]

...If SCG prices itself out of the market, we wil just get cards elsewhere. If it turns out that everyone follows the price increase from SCG, AND we all keep buying, this just means they are right to increase the price, and we should stop wining. :wink:

I know what you are saying here but let me just add that responding to market demand in a natural manner by increasing price is done in more of a continuous fashion. It can't be truly continuous of course but the discrete moments in which they raise their prices would be more often and not so considerable. After all, we need to ask ourselves, what made them increase their prices on FoW so dramatically and why right now? Why not before the GP?

Haha, maybe they know that FTV WILL have FoW. They raise prices, people think think that FTW will NOT have FoW so they gobble them up in case there is a further price hike...then BAM, FoW is printed in FTV but we won't really care because we are happy that it's printed and the price will come down a bit (maybe) and we'll be thankful...yadda yadda, man fuck SCG and their price hikes. They raise their prices and everybody follows.

Also! This is a game in which the quantity of cards printed is ultimately dictated by one entity. Hasbro. It's not like SCG is selling tacos for 5.00 and so everybody ups their prices...Pedro down the way is still gonna cook them up at 2.00, because he creates them and his margin is unchanged. His ingredients still cost him the same amount. When the selling price of cards goes up, the buying price goes up. Collectibles have this problem.

[bruizar]

How many years did we have to acquire 4 Force of Wills again before the price hike? stop complaining. SCG is a store and they can price the cards however they want.

[Ayotte]

Ok for the people suggesting that you could easily counterfeit cards, you are sadly misinformed. There used to be a lot of counterfeiting in the 90's but the cards never looked good, or felt remotely close.

You can't duplicate what cards look like on a laser or injet printer, the types of large offset printers that cards are printed on are worth millions of dollars and are larger than your average house. Also the cardstock will never be right either, you can't just buy that stuff at staples, you ever rip a card in half? there is a layer of blue paper in the middle of every card, it's not just normal printer cardstock.

If someone was to print realistic passable counterfeits you'd need access to a real printing warehouse, order the correct stock, have all the die cutting set up etc. It would have to be done by a group of people who are all in on it who already run this sort of operation, where would the incentive be to commit a major crime and conspiracy with many people as opposed to just running a large scale print shop and doing normal jobs? and at the volumes it would take to actually do this profitably you think no one would notice that there are now hundreds and thousands of extra cards on the market? cause otherwise it's not really worth doing.
The only way you could possibly do this is if you did it in china and bribed the right people, while having a bunch of connections. There have been a lot of counterfeit Pokemon and Yu-gi-oh cards done that way, but they were never passable other than to 8 year olds.

What about something like this? (http://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-Wasteland-Altered-Art-Magic-MTG-x1-Hand-Painted-Acrylic-ACEO-/190818602778?pt=Trading_Card_Games_US&hash=item2c6daccf1a)

I saw that the other day and I wondered how easy it would be to use collector's edition cards that are altered to be borderless at a tournament. It's not like anyone will pull the card out of your sleeve to see the back.

Regarding SCG's price jumps, I heard that last week, people were buying Jace's for $100 on ebay and selling them to SCG for $120, lol. When they raise their buy price by so much, they're effectively able to corner the market by buying every version of a card that is currently for sale.

I still don't understand why people buy cards from SCG when they can just go to tcgplayer and get them for so much cheaper, not to mention ebay.

[Kuma]

I think Ben Bleiweiss got tired of being wrong in his prediction a couple of years ago that Force of Will would be a $100 card so he made it come true.

In all seriousness though, they're still like $55-$60 on ebay. Just buy them there.

[ReAnimator]

They significantly raised their buy prices right before the Zen "priceless treasures". They know what's up.


Uh cause Wotc actually purchased cards from them and Troll and Toad, and ebay etc. It was impossible for Wotc to do what they did without any of the sellers noticing.

This is all public record and mentioned in articles etc.

This thread is so full of stupid it's alarming.

[Nidd]

How many years did we have to acquire 4 Force of Wills again before the price hike? stop complaining. SCG is a store and they can price the cards however they want.
I have owned about 6 different playsets of Force of Will over the last 3 years, each and every copy was bought with the intention of playing it and then the price rose by such an amount that I couldn't defend owning them instead of, you know, selling them and paying my rent for 2-3 months with the money.

But this is not about a single person. This is about the apparent main supplier increasing the god damn price of format staples by a whopping 50%.
Ask yourselves when you've heard of such a large price increase the last time. From an economic standpoint alone, I find this to be bonkers and I can't help it but call anyone who's buying his cards at SCG insane.

[bruizar]

Well, something has to fuel the tournaments they run, and there is no shame in wanting to get rich for running a business.

If the format starts hurting (i.e.: shrinking), demand will drop, prices will normalise and SCG will have to sell their stock for less than they intended. if the format is healthy than no problem. Even the newcomers can STILL make money by collecting money rares from drafts or buying into a card that spikes up (bonfire, goyf, jace, etc etc). That money can be spent on legacy if they want, or on rent, which ever comes first.

[lyracian]

How many years did we have to acquire 4 Force of Wills again before the price hike? stop complaining. SCG is a store and they can price the cards however they want.For the folk that just started playing; hardly any time at all. Unless you have a lot of cash or buy a collection it is difficult for new players to get started in Legacy.

Sure the format may be "healthy" in some areas but it just gets harder and harder to get new players in to Legacy. This will just see more people moving to Modern.

[(nameless one)]

Ben B at SCG has publicly stated he was flow to Wotc headquarters with a lot of the other big retailers like T&T and advised Wotc to abolish the reserve list, he is totally against it. JFC calm down with these conspiracy theories they are nonsense and totally dismissed by you know actual facts and things that happened.

Bill Clinton also publicly stated he did not have sexual relationship with Monica Lewinsky.

[Tammit67]

How many years did we have to acquire 4 Force of Wills again before the price hike? stop complaining. SCG is a store and they can price the cards however they want.

My real issue with SCG setting prices however they want is they basically dictate how every other store buy/sells cards for. SCG prices are the guideline every other trader/store/site uses in their own dealings.

I just don't want new players priced out of this format

[majikal]

Honestly, Force of Will has been overdue for a price hike from retailers for a long time. Real market value had crept up pretty close to where the retail value was, and when you can't get people to come off their cards at a certain price point, you have to up the buy price, which drives up prices across the board.

[Arsenal]

My real issue with SCG setting prices however they want is they basically dictate how every other store buy/sells cards for. SCG prices are the guideline every other trader/store/site uses in their own dealings.

I just don't want new players priced out of this format

This. Even locally, there are players that want to play Legacy, but don't have the cards, and once I tell them how much stuff is, they basically laugh and walk away back to the Standard tables. I own most Legacy staples, but only a playset of each, so I can't play with my Force of Wills while lending them Force of Wills too.

[bruizar]

eternal formats have always been formats that you don't just 'buy into'. you accumulate standard cards, they rotate out, collect dust, and years later you build up a collection of cards. That collection is used for the eternal formats. To buy into legacy or vintage IS buying a collection.

[nedleeds]

If nobody buys them. The price will go down. See: Aluren. /obvious

[aluisiocsantos]

In brazil it gets even shadier, since we don't even have tournaments such as SCG's own, and the card prices are basically the same as SCG's plus our stores' own profits, which means: Very expensive.

[sdematt]

In brazil it gets even shadier, since we don't even have tournaments such as SCG's own, and the card prices are basically the same as SCG's plus our stores' own profits, which means: Very expensive.

We have one main retailer in our town and this is starting to happen. At that point, why should I buy from my own store? Why should I pay 75 cents on Golgari Charms when SCG has them at 25 cents? It's the little things, but I don't want to pay triple what I should.

-Matt

[SpikeyMikey]

IIn all seriousness though, they're still like $55-$60 on ebay. Just buy them there.

For how long, do you think? SCG buylist is $60 cash, $75 trade. So if you're picking them up for 55 on ebay, you can turn them in for a profit at your next nearby SCG.

SCG is generally overpriced, but when they raise the price on something, the market follows. Blue Zen fetches are an excellent example.

Standard isn't really all that bad right now...

[Julian23]

I told my friend who is working in the graphic design/printing industry and she laughed at me and asked when I'd be ready to start counterfeiting, lol.

[ReAnimator]

I told my friend who is working in the graphic design/printing industry and she laughed at me and asked when I'd be ready to start counterfeiting, lol.

As someone who does work in the graphic design/printing industry, good luck with that.

Like i'm not saying you can't make somewhat convincing fakes, but to do it on a scale that makes sense and to do it where they are close enough to indistinguishable to an average collector is beyond difficult. That's not even taking into account the effort of trying to pawn these things off on people.

It is a huge amount of work, like full time job amount, all to do something with serious jail time implications for not very impressive margins when you take all the time involved into consideration.

You might as well just start dealing drugs, cause the penalties/risk would be about the same and your profits would be way higher. Or just get a better paying job and not care about the price of cards.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

Might as well copy a bit of a post I made from another thread. It might be relevant here, if a little out of context. The main thrust is that as the price of "interactive" cards/archetypes increases, Legacy metas can become inundated with non-interactive decks, especially in more financially-constrained areas or new groups. Certainly not a good sign if Forces, a key tool of interaction, start approaching 300+ for a playset.


Standard has a high cost to entry if you want to be able to build (multiple) Tier decks, but you can make budget decks (actually budget...not 150 bucks to play LOLBURN) that both stand a chance in a non-pro meta, and also are likely of having an interactive game of Magic in any given match. Not so much in Legacy (and Modern), where the main tools of interaction (Force, Cashseize, Wasteland, Port, V-Bomb) are prohibitively expensive or require expensive complements and win conditions (Fetch/Dual manabase, Goyf, Clique, Karakas, Snappy, Lili, JtMS). You can't really budgetize interactive decks. The closest is to go for a "budget" archetype like Pox capable of interacting, but even that's pretty expensive nowadays.

The cheapest decks tend to be linear, low-interaction "combo". Burn, Elves, and uh....well LED's recent price increase has made Belcher, Storm, and Dredge pretty expensive, so scratch them. I guess you can also have some really "bad" combo decks that can be bought on the cheap too. The problem with all of these kind of decks being cheap is when a financially constrained group tries to get into Legacy altogether, to make a new playgroup. They'll all gravitate towards the cheap options and you'll end up with a meta full of noninteractive shit matches. Ever play Enchantress versus Burn? Ever play that matchup twice in a row?

Game 1: I get my lock or I get burned out

Games 2&3: Mulligan to Leyline....LOLBURN!

That's what a budget meta is going to look like. In Standard a budget meta can actually produce interactive games that while simple, can be fun. Legacy almost requires a certain proportion of the meta to be running interactive decks in order to create a high probability of engaging matches. And with those decks being expensive...well, you get the picture.

[BenBleiweiss]

Hey everyone - had someone point me towards this thread! I just wanted to respond to some points made on this thread:

1) We were publicly on the record as going to meetings at WOTC regarding the reserve list. Our position at the time is that we wanted to see it abolished outright. This is still our position, and has not changed.

2) Our pricing (both buy and sell) are based on the demand we have on cards. We don't generally spec - we buy what we expect to sell in a certain period of time (and that period of time is not by any means long-term). Of the cards I've been aggressive on (buying supply, raising prices), two things are true: Our buy prices have gone to a higher percentage of our sell price than we have on average for cards, and all of the cards are rock-solid tournament staples in one (or more) formats. To name four cards on this thread: Is anyone going to argue that Force of Will, Jace the Mind Sculptor, Scalding Tarn and Misty Rainforest aren't four of the most popular/played cards in either their formats, in multiple formats, or in casual play?


My real issue with SCG setting prices however they want is they basically dictate how every other store buy/sells cards for. SCG prices are the guideline every other trader/store/site uses in their own dealings.

I just don't want new players priced out of this format

3) I can't control what other businesses do with their pricing. I can only control about we are doing with our pricing. If other businesses choose to follow suit on any of our pricing, that is their prerogative! I would say again that I am very responsible to my employer (SCG) in that the cards I am buying are those I expect to sell, and that I am not looking to "Pump and dump" worthless or flash-in-the-pan cards. My choices of pricing are based on the best interests of SCG based on sales data, and these cards wouldn't be priced at their current prices if I did not expect them to sell at these prices.

If anyone has any questions, please don't hesitate to ask, or to private message me!

- Ben

[Ayotte]

Thanks for the response Ben! It's childish for anyone to expect you, as a business, to do something besides what you expect to maximize your profits. If demand for a product is higher than a firm can support, the firm will raise the price in order to reduce demand so that it can support it. It's very simple. Legacy is an amazing format and therefore more people want to buy into it, but because it's hard to convince players to sell their legacy staples, it makes perfect sense to increase buy prices in order to acquire more of said staples, and increase sell prices in order to match the supply and demand curves.

[danyul]

The people who complain on forums about pricing seem to forget that there are alot of people out there who started playing Magic when they were kids, grew up, found good jobs, and make bank right now. Those people buy from SCG, and other stores, because of convenience and because they have enough money to not have to care where they buy stuff. Those people, and I know quite a few, throw money at Magic cards harder than you could imagine. They work hard, and they make bank, and when they get the time to play they want to play with that sexy, expensive stuff.

If you made 80k+ a year, wouldn't you?

Those people are out there. And they don't come to The Source to cry about prices. But they are out there shaping the market regardless.

BTW I'm poor so I don't say this as one of those lucky few wealthy guys.

[Mr.C]

If you made 80k+ a year, wouldn't you?


No. Only if you make $80k per year and live in your parents' basement.

[danyul]

That comment doesn't add anything to this conversation. The fact is, there are people out there willing to pay those prices. Hence, the price moves.

And I don't care where you live. Wealth is wealth. Just because you are frugal doesn't mean everybody is.

I'm not defending these price increases, but you have to keep in mind that most Magic players don't post on forums. But they are out there buying stuff just the same.

[TsumiBand]

Hey everyone - had someone point me towards this thread! I just wanted to respond to some points made on this thread:

It really is very cool that you're so willing to talk shop about things like this. I feel compelled to ask about one thing though.



3) I can't control what other businesses do with their pricing. I can only control about we are doing with our pricing. If other businesses choose to follow suit on any of our pricing, that is their prerogative! I would say again that I am very responsible to my employer (SCG) in that the cards I am buying are those I expect to sell, and that I am not looking to "Pump and dump" worthless or flash-in-the-pan cards. My choices of pricing are based on the best interests of SCG based on sales data, and these cards wouldn't be priced at their current prices if I did not expect them to sell at these prices.

If anyone has any questions, please don't hesitate to ask, or to private message me!

- Ben

So, like, what was the deal with Commanders' Arsenal then? Your store offered to buy the product for more than the MSRP, to which a vast majority of stores responded by either selling their product to you, or going, "Welp, zero-sum economics. I *have* to raise the price of this now, or I lose money." That did keep product out of a lot of people's hands, because sellers were somehow "forced" to raise the price of their Commanders Arsenal boxes due to this action.

It seems like it's my lousy mantra lately given the kinds of discussions that have been taking place on this board for the last couple weeks/months/whatever, but "I Am Not An Econ Major" so maybe there's a finer point to this discussion that I'm missing. More and more though, I see people - sellers, buyers, everyone - using your store to determine what the price point of Magic the Gathering actually is. So when Force of Will jumps up $50 on SCG, it commands a lot of people's attention and it pulls a lot of strings, whether or not you personally "control" whether that happens or not.

I know ya gotta stay in business - I don't have any concept of the expense of being Star City Games. But is there any sense of responsibility there, when the perceived entry barrier for Eternal just keeps climbing?

[clavio]

The people who complain on forums about pricing seem to forget that there are alot of people out there who started playing Magic when they were kids, grew up, found good jobs, and make bank right now. Those people buy from SCG, and other stores, because of convenience and because they have enough money to not have to care where they buy stuff. Those people, and I know quite a few, throw money at Magic cards harder than you could imagine. They work hard, and they make bank, and when they get the time to play they want to play with that sexy, expensive stuff.

If you made 80k+ a year, wouldn't you?

Those people are out there. And they don't come to The Source to cry about prices. But they are out there shaping the market regardless.

BTW I'm poor so I don't say this as one of those lucky few wealthy guys.

I don't know about that. I recently upgraded to a tie+briefcase job and immediately bought Candelabras, but I still think things are too expensive and Wizards should do something. The fact is, teenagers can't afford to get into Legacy even if it was something they really wanted to do. The only people that can buy into Legacy at this point (as in, they don't already have the staples) are adults who have a bunch of money they can blow on cardboard. I'm sure the amount of 15-20 year olds that would be interested in joining affordable Legacy far outnumbers the number of adults interested.

Even the people that have infinity money can still feel restricted by the current costs. Some guy could feel ok about buying a competitive deck for $2500, but he wouldn't feel ok dropping another 2500 on a second deck, even if it was something he wanted.

[Koby]

No. Only if you make $80k per year and live in your parents' basement.

Moreover, people who make 80k are the most likely to price-shop for the best deal.

[ReAnimator]

So, like, what was the deal with Commanders' Arsenal then? Your store offered to buy the product for more than the MSRP, to which a vast majority of stores responded by either selling their product to you, or going, "Welp, zero-sum economics. I *have* to raise the price of this now, or I lose money." That did keep product out of a lot of people's hands, because sellers were somehow "forced" to raise the price of their Commanders Arsenal boxes due to this action.


Starcity had very little to do with that. Wotc were the ones who dropped the ball (and admitted it) they were the ones who completely sh** the bed on a product launch and distribution. SCG just happened to be the biggest buyer and the ones with the biggest advertising to scoop up the most stuff. If they hadn't done it someone else would have (and lots tried). Lots of small stores/dealers went around and bough out other uniformed stores.

[Finn]

Yeah, Jace prices confound me. I gambled that it would eventually settle into sixty dollars or so. Even with Tarmo
Commanding equally baffling prices, Jave is illegal in Modern and only in a few decks anyway. I admit that I have so far been burned. I may honestly never get Jace due to its consistent over valuation. This news just cements that scenario.

[Ayotte]

Yeah, Jace prices confound me. I gambled that it would eventually settle into sixty dollars or so. Even with Tarmo
Commanding equally baffling prices, Jave is illegal in Modern and only in a few decks anyway. I admit that I have so far been burned. I may honestly never get Jace due to its consistent over valuation. This news just cements that scenario.

I think it's because those that own Jaces don't want to sell them, despite not necessarily using them.

[DragoFireheart]

There's a reason it's call capitalism.

[Koby]

Yeah, Jace prices confound me. I gambled that it would eventually settle into sixty dollars or so. Even with Tarmo
Commanding equally baffling prices, Jave is illegal in Modern and only in a few decks anyway. I admit that I have so far been burned. I may honestly never get Jace due to its consistent over valuation. This news just cements that scenario.

This happened last B&R cycle, where the price crept on what Modern speculators thought would be a slam-dunk unban in Modern. That naturally did not happen, and prices deflated a bit after January; only to return anew with this cycle. Add to this increased demand for Jace in Legacy driven by both GP Strassburg and BOM, and you have increased demand with a fixed supply.

In short, the market is working efficiently.

[ESG]

There's a disturbing lack of scruples in this thread. You're considering buying a printing press to make forgeries? Really? Have you ever seen a jail cell? Do you think the money you save on cards will outweigh the legal penalties when Hasbro takes you to court? You really think no one will question your fake cards, whether it's at a tournament or in a transaction? Have you ever been DQ'd? How about suspended? Take a minute ...

The fact that Ben Bleiweiss posts here despite wild rumors and conspiracy theories speaks volumes of his professionalism. Ben, thank you for being so open and forthright. The Magic community is spoiled when it comes to transparency. And thank you, StarCity Games, for running the Open Series. StarCity is a quality business. I recognize that it is a business, and I respect that.

[ukyo_rulz]

Welp, I threw in the towel. I got into Legacy with Affinity, built Dredge on the cheap, and was slowly accumulating cards for UWR Miracles. I'm three Tundras and a Jace short of the list I want, but at these prices the other guys I play with are cashing out. Since I'll have no one to play with, I'll be doing the same. I'm super disappointed. It took me a really long time to find enough (english-speaking) people to regularly play Legacy with in Japan.

[Lejay]

Guys, it's not cards that go more expensive. It's your dollars that are worth less and less. :)

[cogitoergosum]

Ayotte hit it right. I have 3 jaces, haven't used them in months, but I would never consider selling them (unless I cashed out completely).

[Oiolosse]

There's a disturbing lack of scruples in this thread. You're considering buying a printing press to make forgeries? Really? Have you ever seen a jail cell? Do you think the money you save on cards will outweigh the legal penalties when Hasbro takes you to court? You really think no one will question your fake cards, whether it's at a tournament or in a transaction? Have you ever been DQ'd? How about suspended? Take a minute ...

The fact that Ben Bleiweiss posts here despite wild rumors and conspiracy theories speaks volumes of his professionalism. Ben, thank you for being so open and forthright. The Magic community is spoiled when it comes to transparency. And thank you, StarCity Games, for running the Open Series. StarCity is a quality business. I recognize that it is a business, and I respect that.

If someone were to make forgeries they would need to do it right.
1. Not in this country
2. With much capital
3. You are right, with no scruples.

They are a business and seem to be professional and successful. I give them that. In fact, I guess I can't hate on them ultimately. I guess I'm most pissed that staples are now printed at Mythic and that the Reserved list still exists.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

This happened last B&R cycle, where the price crept on what Modern speculators thought would be a slam-dunk unban in Modern. That naturally did not happen, and prices deflated a bit after January; only to return anew with this cycle. Add to this increased demand for Jace in Legacy driven by both GP Strassburg and BOM, and you have increased demand with a fixed supply.

In short, the market is working efficiently.

I don't understand the definition whereby idle speculation is efficiency.


You guys should also really bend test cards, don't buy forgeries.

stop double posting, dick. -zilla

[AngryTroll]

The fact that Ben Bleiweiss posts here despite wild rumors and conspiracy theories speaks volumes of his professionalism. Ben, thank you for being so open and forthright. The Magic community is spoiled when it comes to transparency. And thank you, StarCity Games, for running the Open Series. StarCity is a quality business. I recognize that it is a business, and I respect that.

This. All of the talk of forgeries in this thread has made me very uncomfortable. I don't want to associate with a community that is seen as supporting fraud and theft. I can only hope that a majority of the members here decided to simply stay out of this thread because of all of the talk about forgeries.

I especially want to thank Ben Bleiweiss for dropping in here and explaining (and defending) SCG's actions. I buy from SCG when I am looking for specific cards that my local store does't have in stock. I'm happy to support SCG because of their Sunday Legacy Opens and because I know that if I order a NM card from SCG, I get a NM card in the mail a few days later.

SCG has contributed more to the growth of the Legacy format that any other single group, body, website, or person. I end up ordering cards from them every few months, and I ALWAYS mention that I choose to order from them because of their support for Legacy and because of their honesty grading cards. I've received cards in better-than-listed condition more often than I've received them in as-listed condition from SCG.

[lordofthepit]

I'm not happy with the recent price increases, but I'm not going to blame SCG. They're just responding to supply and demand. I'm sure SCG would rather buy and sell Force of Will at lower price points (say, $15 and $30, respectively), with probably a slightly higher margin and with increased volume. No one wins when prices shoot up like this, except for perhaps speculators who sit on cards long term (which is different than SCG's model, which involves very quick turnover of the cards they acquire).


Hey everyone - had someone point me towards this thread! I just wanted to respond to some points made on this thread:

1) We were publicly on the record as going to meetings at WOTC regarding the reserve list. Our position at the time is that we wanted to see it abolished outright. This is still our position, and has not changed.

2) Our pricing (both buy and sell) are based on the demand we have on cards. We don't generally spec - we buy what we expect to sell in a certain period of time (and that period of time is not by any means long-term). Of the cards I've been aggressive on (buying supply, raising prices), two things are true: Our buy prices have gone to a higher percentage of our sell price than we have on average for cards, and all of the cards are rock-solid tournament staples in one (or more) formats. To name four cards on this thread: Is anyone going to argue that Force of Will, Jace the Mind Sculptor, Scalding Tarn and Misty Rainforest aren't four of the most popular/played cards in either their formats, in multiple formats, or in casual play?



3) I can't control what other businesses do with their pricing. I can only control about we are doing with our pricing. If other businesses choose to follow suit on any of our pricing, that is their prerogative! I would say again that I am very responsible to my employer (SCG) in that the cards I am buying are those I expect to sell, and that I am not looking to "Pump and dump" worthless or flash-in-the-pan cards. My choices of pricing are based on the best interests of SCG based on sales data, and these cards wouldn't be priced at their current prices if I did not expect them to sell at these prices.

If anyone has any questions, please don't hesitate to ask, or to private message me!

- Ben

Thank you, Ben, for chiming in once again. I really appreciate it when you give insight into your operations, even though the tone of these threads are often so hostile. (Magic players and Internet posters complaining about stuff, who didn't see that coming?) Thank you also for your continued support of the Legacy format.


There's a disturbing lack of scruples in this thread. You're considering buying a printing press to make forgeries? Really? Have you ever seen a jail cell? Do you think the money you save on cards will outweigh the legal penalties when Hasbro takes you to court? You really think no one will question your fake cards, whether it's at a tournament or in a transaction? Have you ever been DQ'd? How about suspended? Take a minute ...

The fact that Ben Bleiweiss posts here despite wild rumors and conspiracy theories speaks volumes of his professionalism. Ben, thank you for being so open and forthright. The Magic community is spoiled when it comes to transparency. And thank you, StarCity Games, for running the Open Series. StarCity is a quality business. I recognize that it is a business, and I respect that.

I am glad someone is willing to call out people who advocate or condone forgeries. While I think occasionally companies can be overzealous with their IP rights, this is pretty much a textbook example of a black-and-white case that is bad for everyone involved (except the counterfeiter). It should go without saying, but I was disturbed that the lack of comment in this thread could be construed as the Legacy community condoning forgery.

[ukyo_rulz]

This. All of the talk of forgeries in this thread has made me very uncomfortable.

I don't think anyone here is seriously considering to actually forge cards. My understanding is that those posts were made to illustrate a point that goes something like "The price of Legacy staples is now so high that people will resort to forgery!".

[thulnanth]

Hey all,

One thought I've had for a long time wrt the "ridiculous Legacy card" prices and how they are keeping new people from being able to get in... has anyone considered that part of the reason is the rise in the price of Standard cards?

Back when the game first started there weren't any stores selling singles ('93) - to get our cards we all just bought packs. As the game continued to grow in popularity and new players joined in, they also wishes to acquire some of the older, now recently OOP singles. To do this they had 2 options - cash or trade (much like today). This was fine in theory... until we hit Fallen Empires.

Prior to its release, players had trading options. If you didn't start until Legends for example, you still could pull good cards and trade with older players for stuff. Unfortunately, the good times didn't last. Soon you had new players with their 4th Edition/Fallen Empires singles trying to trade for Moxen... yeah, not gonna happen. Over time set quality improved and new cards came out that were tradable, making things not so bad.

People looking to get into Legacy today in many ways have it quite good. As a rule new players don't just jump into eternal formats - they start casual, maybe move into FNM, get more serious, and then at some point try a few of the older formats. This usually happens (it seems, at least) after they've played long enough to see some of their cards rotate. Once they look into older formats they need to try and get older cards, like duals.

How to acquire? Much like in the beginning - cash or trade. The difference is that many of the standard cards of today have quite a bit of value. For example, I have a friend who got back into MtG 4 years ago. Over this time he has managed to pick up fetchlands, Eldrazi, Lili's, various foils, and even a Jace. Let me tell you, it is a lot easier to roll these cards into duals than FE/HL crap :tongue:

Now I'm not saying any of this is cheap or easy (although it is just a hobby, after all). What I am saying is isn't it possible that at least part of the "problem" is that WotC is putting out good, high demand singles that are much more expensive than in the past, giving newer players more trade value, thus pushing up the relative price of older cards? To be honest I am more amazed by the price of a foil JtMS or Zendikar fetchland than I am at any Reserve list single.

Just a though.

Take it easy,
Jared

[bruizar]

Super true. There is no way that Snapcaster Mage is worth about as much as a Legends Sylvan Library. Sylvan Library, back in 1994, was one of the most revered cards of the game, and it still sees tournament play. A newly printed innistrad rare should never be as much as a Sylvan Library.

[DLifshitz]

"The price of Legacy staples is now so high that people will resort to forgery!"

People were actually selling forged cards on eBay about two years ago. For example, some guy from Italy (I think) was selling "proxy" P9, duals and stuff like Tabernacle. From the photos he displayed on the auctions, they were good enough to pass a cursory inspection. From what I remember, at some point WotC/Hasbro clamped down on counterfeits, and they disappeared from eBay at least.

[Julian23]

The sheer fact that we are discussing forging cards in order to continue playing this game tells you how long reprints have been overdue.

I have zero problems with people forging cards for their personal use, even if it means that my cards' worth with collapse. Selling those fakes is different, always let people know what they're buying. In a way, Revised duals are kind of fake Beta duals anyway.

[feline]

I think the proper title of the thread would be "Demand increases the price of Force of Will".

http://ark42.com/mtg/pricehistory.php?q=Force+of+Will&d=0

[lyracian]

Now I'm not saying any of this is cheap or easy (although it is just a hobby, after all). What I am saying is isn't it possible that at least part of the "problem" is that WotC is putting out good, high demand singles that are much more expensive than in the past, giving newer players more trade value, thus pushing up the relative price of older cards? To be honest I am more amazed by the price of a foil JtMS or Zendikar fetchland than I am at any Reserve list single.It is possible to trade for stuff; I have traded away Duals to get Jace 2.0 and Lilly. I know a lot of people that use Star City as the go to guide for working out a trade. Using there prices I can, as an example, trade my spare Zen Fetches for Rishadan Port. Given that I purchased the Zen Fetches at $10-15 each that is is a value increase and a second playset of Port's would let me keep another deck fully built.

This is, of course, assuming I could find someone who wants to trade away Ports. There in lies the problem, and the reason the price keeps going up, there are less and less people willing to trade away the core cards.


If someone were to make forgeries they would need to do it right.
1. Not in this country
2. With much capital
3. You are right, with no scruples.
.Unless it has changed recently South Korea has no copywrite law; you should see the amount of fake Disney stuff they produce.

[PirateKing]

The comments about forgeries remind me about the economics of the DEA making illegal various drugs, or prohibition in general.
It makes sense that the start up cost or even daily expenses to forge Magic cards is a lot considering they would either be a $140 Jace that would get a cursory inspection or a $5,000 Beat Black Lotus that would be given a through once over by a qualified inspector before a sale.
But the volume on power 9 is so low that cards can be expected to receive a higher level of inspection. But Legacy cards commonly moved in groups of 4? If the cost of "everyday" cards keep rising, I find that price barrier looking less steep.
Like what if Force goes for $200? $300? $800?
At some point the price for staples becomes so high that it stops being a crazy idea to get into illicit activities, same with other illegal sales markets. At some point the lines cross that a product that is still being sufficiently moved at high volume for a sufficiently high price when a forger can strike.

Not that I'm recommending the practice, just that the way these things are being guided by both Wizards and large retailers like SCG, if I read in the news that SWAT and Interpol shut down a Jace/Tarmogoyf production ring in Camden, NJ there would be zero surprise.

[ukyo_rulz]

People were actually selling forged cards on eBay about two years ago. For example, some guy from Italy (I think) was selling "proxy" P9, duals and stuff like Tabernacle. From the photos he displayed on the auctions, they were good enough to pass a cursory inspection. From what I remember, at some point WotC/Hasbro clamped down on counterfeits, and they disappeared from eBay at least.

I checked and they're still there:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MTG-Deals-Set-of-10-Gaming-Etc-Power-Nine-Proxies-Non-Foil-GamingEtc-Proxy-/160997186416?pt=Trading_Card_Games_US&hash=item257c2e1b70

Overpriced, though. I mean I wouldn't pay more than a dollar each for these. I guess they were nice to have back when Vintage was still actively played and they had proxy tournaments.

Edit:
Legacy staples are also available in proxy form:
http://mtgproxy.freewebspace.com/whats_new.html

[Rocco111]

Dunno if Ben's still around reading our posts but I am curious about a fact. Capitalistic fact, actually.
"What about the altered cards?" and more precisely, about altered FoW?

Because I see more and more people praising alterations and all that jazz but quite frankly, as a buyer/trader, am less keen on buying/trading an altered card than its normal, untouched, NM, equivalent. Not to mention the relative quality of the work done on the card itself (from 'truly amazing' to 'Epic-Piece-Of-Sh**, you really have no taste' to 'Original Artist doing a little tweak to the art and signing it'). And if you consider the very principle that cards like FoW are out-of-print, I am fine with the value of a non-altered staple raising over-time.

My 2 cents

[DrJones]

I have nothing against playing with proxies with your friends. I have something against selling forgeries when it clearly hurts the owners of the IP, but WotC is a special case because they acknowledge they are shooting themselves in the foot with their no reprint policy, publicly told that in the long run it will kill their revenue from eternal tournaments; and they won't have any present or future losses due to reprints of legacy staples, as these cards have been out of print for more than a decade and they even stated in written form that they won't reprint them again (this really undermines the copyright protection on their cards, though they could still sue you for trademark infringment!); there's also the fact that increasing supply in small amounts helps legacy tournaments to stay alive, from which they directly profit (a lot!!), so I don't know how to judge the issue, other than concluding that WotC are either masochistic or idiots.

@Rocco111: People alter their cards because that's the only way they can protect them from thievery.

[Rocco111]

Dr Jones
@Rocco111: People alter their cards because that's the only way they can protect them from thievery.

You missed my point, I am afraid. :wink:
I am not asking the purpose of the alteration. You can have plenty of reasons for it: Card is now Poor but you wanna have it 'clean' for your eyes again, You hate the original art, You just think that it'll cool to have a Hentaï drawing on you basic island, You don't know what to do with your money, You have started a Pimp deck but some cards are too old to be foil so why not adding some paint over them?, etc. I seriously do not believe thief is a reason to get your cards altered. :tongue:

I am only pointing at the fact that a shop buying a lot of cards to resell them afterwards may have a particular opinion about alterations. And so the question: Alteration are a good thing or a bad thing for 2nd hand market (from their perspective)?
Mine is already given, so no need to push it further. :wink:

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I think the proper title of the thread would be "Demand increases the price of Force of Will".

http://ark42.com/mtg/pricehistory.php?q=Force+of+Will&d=0

Man, lotta people up in this thread heard of the supply/demand curve and assume they understand economics now.

[Kuma]

Man, lotta people up in this thread heard of the supply/demand curve and assume they understand economics now.

Would you care to explain what you think is going on? I'm genuinely curious.

[pandaman]

They don't just raise their selling price, they do raise their buying price too. For example, they now buy JTMS at $100. They are buying FOW at $60.

This encourages people out to make a quick buck to buy all the Forces and JtmSs they can get for less than the increased buy price and sell to SCG to make a profit. They're actually feeding the SCG monopoly on the cards because more and more end up with SCG being sold at SCG prices. It's another way SCG are strategically fixing the price.

[(nameless one)]

I just got my playset of LEDs.

Let's see if they end up to $150 (then trade some of them for Imperial Recruiters)

[ReAnimator]

This encourages people out to make a quick buck to buy all the Forces and JtmSs they can get for less than the increased buy price and sell to SCG to make a profit. They're actually feeding the SCG monopoly on the cards because more and more end up with SCG being sold at SCG prices. It's another way SCG are strategically fixing the price.

What? this doesn't even make sense. Name one store ONE that doesn't have a buy list. Seriously you can't put blame on SCG and say they are fixing anything by advertising their buy list and having independent people taking advantage of it. How does SCG have a monopoly on anything? seriously how many magic retailers are there out there? Thousands? Sure SCG is the biggest and they influence things but the stuff you are typing here is just plain wrong a silly.

[twndomn]

I just find the SCG Open commentators are pretty much hypocrites. They say they love Legacy format more than Modern and they want to promote Legacy; yet they work for the store/organization that drives up Legacy stable card prices.

The day SCG drops Legacy in their Open is the day we see price drops.

[(nameless one)]

I just find the SCG Open commentators are pretty much hypocrites. They say they love Legacy format more than Modern and they want to promote Legacy; yet they work for the store/organization that drives up Legacy stable card prices.

The day SCG drops Legacy in their Open is the day we see price drops.

I doubt this.

Look at Vintage Opens from back in the day. When they dropped that, did the prices of Power9 and Vintage staples go down? Nope. They stayed like that.

[Ruta Barracuda]

A couple things come to mind with these price increases:

1) Legacy is becoming more popular (in my view) as it is shown it has a great metagame at the moment.
2) GP Washington, DC is coming up in a few months, and it's Legacy.
3) From my experience, SCG likes to make moves to corner the market. They just did it with Zednikar fetches a few months back (glad I got my Scalding Tarns on the cheap right before they did this), and my bets are they're trying to do it with Legacy staples now.
4) Paranoia...? This is something you won't hear often online, but a shopkeeper at one of the places I frequent are getting a little paranoid about Legacy staples, especially original duals - he thinks now is the time to sell them because WotC is throwing around the idea of revising the Reserved List and reprinting a bunch of Legacy staples, including duals.

[Kich867]

A couple things come to mind with these price increases:
3) From my experience, SCG likes to make moves to corner the market. They just did it with Zednikar fetches a few months back (glad I got my Scalding Tarns on the cheap right before they did this), and my bets are they're trying to do it with Legacy staples now.
4) Paranoia...? This is something you won't hear often online, but a shopkeeper at one of the places I frequent are getting a little paranoid about Legacy staples, especially original duals - he thinks now is the time to sell them because WotC is throwing around the idea of revising the Reserved List and reprinting a bunch of Legacy staples, including duals.

SCG already cranked the price of legacy staples by a factor of 5 a few years ago, pushing duals from 15-20$ to over $100. 3 has already happened.

I haven't heard about 4, do you have the link to their official statement about revisiting the revised list and reprinting dual lands?

[Kich867]

I just find the SCG Open commentators are pretty much hypocrites. They say they love Legacy format more than Modern and they want to promote Legacy; yet they work for the store/organization that drives up Legacy stable card prices.

The day SCG drops Legacy in their Open is the day we see price drops.

Yeah they should probably quit and be jobless. Who needs money when you have your morals!

[Technics]

SCG already cranked the price of legacy staples by a factor of 5 a few years ago, pushing duals from 15-20$ to over $100. 3 has already happened.

I haven't heard about 4, do you have the link to their official statement about revisiting the revised list and reprinting dual lands?

There is no word about this. Just people being crazy. Sadly it's not going to happen soon... :-(

[lyracian]

1) Legacy is becoming more popular (in my view) as it is shown it has a great metagame at the moment.
2) GP Washington, DC is coming up in a few months, and it's Legacy.
.
Look at the cards they put up (Jace, Force, Blue Fetches) and what is currenlty the decks to beat.
You can see if anyone is wanting to build a deck for GP Washing they are going to need those cards for a lot of the popular choices

Miracle, Esper Blade, BUG Control - Jace, FOW, Blue Fetches
Team America, sneak and Show, CarpetBomb (Rug) - FOW, Blue Fetches
ANT Storm- Blue Fetches
Jund, Goblins, Maverick - Non-Blue stuff...

[Ruta Barracuda]

SCG already cranked the price of legacy staples by a factor of 5 a few years ago, pushing duals from 15-20$ to over $100. 3 has already happened.

I haven't heard about 4, do you have the link to their official statement about revisiting the revised list and reprinting dual lands?

There is no official statement about 4 - I've tried to find ANY shred of info supporting it, but have turned up absolutely nothing. That's why I put it as "Paranoia....?" This shopkeeper is swearing up and down it's going to happen and he's citing insider info that he won't give out; he handles all trades and big purchases the store does.

[Finn]

I would like to think that Wotc had a plan in storage when they decided to publicly ratchet down the loose ends of their reprint policy regarding the resrved list. Since then prices have skyrocketed. I don't see how Hasbro can allow a reprint of any of those cards without its public image taking a total beating. You can bet that this will not happen.

But the design guys are very creative. I have posted potentially workable design on this website for dual alternatives that I thought up in minutes which go against neither the spirit nor the letter of their policy. I am confident that they could create a block that was suitable to create replacements in, and have quite effective alternatives to duals included. Considering how much money it would make them, that really seems like the likely route. We may just have to wait awhile. The time seems right to me. Unfortunately it takes a year or so for a set to make it to print.

[Dan Turner]

People keep saying it is hard to print good "proxies". Not true with access to a 4 color press (they can be purchased used for about $5-$6k) this is the same type of press old comics were printed on and what makes the little circles on real old magic cards it would not be that hard the blue at the center of each card is actually a glue that holds the front and back of the card together. to test this we soaked revised commons in water overnight and they peeled right apart. It is just standard card stock other then the glue. Sure it would cost $10-$15k to get started and the cost of jail is a real one but like a friend once told me if an expert can not tell the difference then for all intent and purposes it is real.(it was about a painting but the same holds true here.)

I have seen some counterfeit cards and own a few that if I did not know they were fake I would not be able to tell the difference.

[(nameless one)]

If people can forge passports, they sure as hell can forge Magic cards

[Arsenal]

If people can forge passports, they sure as hell can forge Magic cards

This. Lol at people thinking a Magic card is some holy grail of unforgeable stock when people are forging currency, passports, and other sensitive documents easy-breezy.

[PirateKing]

This. Lol at people thinking a Magic card is some holy grail of unforgeable stock when people are forging currency, passports, and other sensitive documents easy-breezy.

The problem is there is no money in the operation, or if there is it gives the buyer no advantage. If you counterfeit a passport, chances are the passport is going for much more than what a normal person would pay, because passport.
If you counterfeit currency, the goal is to get a 1:1 exchange and generate value over your expenses. This would be the goal for counterfeit cards as well. They guy with the counterfeit Moat is still looking for $300. Plus just like with currency, higher ticket items are going to bring more scrutiny. Any Black Lotus sold would be appraised and thoroughly tested.

Anybody with the capabilities to run a line of cards indistinguishable from those printed by Wizards would sell them at full value, because that's the point.

[ReAnimator]

This. Lol at people thinking a Magic card is some holy grail of unforgeable stock when people are forging currency, passports, and other sensitive documents easy-breezy.

That wasn't my argument, of course it's possible.
I'm saying that the time and money and effort and risk involved with doing so and actually unloading them and making them at a high enough quality level to where people don't notice, is not worth it.

It's not just the press, it's getting all the supplies, making the die lines etc. It is a ton of effort and money on start up, and hours and hours of your time.
To make enough money to do this and do it well and passable you might as well just open up a real print shop and start a business and make some money legitimately.

If someone did set up an operation, it would make way more sense to just print out whatever the hot mythics of standard are, it would be way easier to move that stuff and no one would be scrutinizing anything.
If you tried to move enough minty legends and beta cards to make it worthwhile people would notice. Whereas moving a hundred times as many Snapcasters for a fraction of the profit per card would make way more sense.

So even in this fantasy land where indistinguishable fakes are flooding the market, it still wouldn't help legacy at all if the people in on it are smart and just in it to make money.

[Barook]

If you tried to move enough minty legends and beta cards to make it worthwhile people would notice. Whereas moving a hundred times as many Snapcasters for a fraction of the profit per card would make way more sense.

So even in this fantasy land where indistinguishable fakes are flooding the market, it still wouldn't help legacy at all if the people in on it are smart and just in it to make money.
It would be pretty easy to make said cards NM instead of mint. Sure, they would lose a bit of value, but it would be way less suspious than churning out tons of mint Beta duals.

Prices would sink after a while, though, since demand at the current price would be saturated.

Unless card prices are driven up sky-high, I doubt it would worth it. Plus, the risk involved would be pretty high, considering Hasbro's lawyers would be out to anally violate you if you tried to professionally counterfeit cards (unless you're in China).

[ReAnimator]

It would be pretty easy to make said cards NM instead of mint. Sure, they would lose a bit of value, but it would be way less suspious than churning out tons of mint Beta duals.


But what is the point? to "help" out legacy?
Like why not go to a GP and drop 20 each of Snapcasters, Sphinxes revelation's, Thragtusk, huntmasters, confidants etc. at each and every dealer table in the hall? You would make way more money way easier and no one would inspect the cards or even bat an eyelash?

[PirateKing]

My fantasy is some super wealthy Legacy loving philanthropist sets up shop in his tax shelter volcano island lair and prints huge runs of Legacy staples and then just gives them away anonymously, like hacks the addresses of the DCI and you just get a manila envelope one day with 10 of every card you could ever want. Hasboro and Wizards goes ape shit and threaten to sue the pants off anyone caught with the cards, but they are literally the same cards, matched exactly, so nobody could ever know. Suddenly supply is 10 times what it was, prices drops, and everybody plays Legacy and has a good time.

[Julian23]

Until the Broccoli family shows and up sues the shit out of you for spoiling the next James Bond movie where he descends down that volcano and takes out the super villain threatening to crash global economy by flooding the world with endless reprints of Tarmogoyf.

Don't ask how long it took me to find out who actually holds the copyright/trademark of the James Bond movies.

[PirateKing]

If by Bond you mean Pete Hoefling in some weird Noir film where at the end you realize the hero was the bad guy all along

[Ruta Barracuda]

I would like to think that Wotc had a plan in storage when they decided to publicly ratchet down the loose ends of their reprint policy regarding the resrved list. Since then prices have skyrocketed. I don't see how Hasbro can allow a reprint of any of those cards without its public image taking a total beating. You can bet that this will not happen.

But the design guys are very creative. I have posted potentially workable design on this website for dual alternatives that I thought up in minutes which go against neither the spirit nor the letter of their policy. I am confident that they could create a block that was suitable to create replacements in, and have quite effective alternatives to duals included. Considering how much money it would make them, that really seems like the likely route. We may just have to wait awhile. The time seems right to me. Unfortunately it takes a year or so for a set to make it to print.

This is my thinking too - that functional reprints other than shocklands are going to be released. That would make more sense, otherwise collectors would be up in arms; either that, or they're going to do another one of those From the Vault sets with stuff actually on the reserved list.

[Aggro_zombies]

I would like to think that Wotc had a plan in storage when they decided to publicly ratchet down the loose ends of their reprint policy regarding the resrved list. Since then prices have skyrocketed. I don't see how Hasbro can allow a reprint of any of those cards without its public image taking a total beating. You can bet that this will not happen.

But the design guys are very creative. I have posted potentially workable design on this website for dual alternatives that I thought up in minutes which go against neither the spirit nor the letter of their policy. I am confident that they could create a block that was suitable to create replacements in, and have quite effective alternatives to duals included. Considering how much money it would make them, that really seems like the likely route. We may just have to wait awhile. The time seems right to me. Unfortunately it takes a year or so for a set to make it to print.
The problem with 'alternatives' is that R&D has said several times that they consider the original duals too good - they're almost strictly better than basic lands, and they were strictly better than basics for a few years after they came out. Any cards good enough to supplant the duals as a viable alternative in Legacy would have to be better than them. Cards that are dual-like, but actually worse - such as the shocks - will see no play except among people building super budget versions of decks because, well, they're worse. It's very difficult to make duals that have exactly the same power level and also don't violate the spirit of the Reserved List (so no Snow Duals or anything).

Also, what vehicle would you use to deliver these? Having Equivalent-to-Duals, or Better-than-Duals, legal in Standard would be a no-go as surely as having Brainstorm, Force of Will, or any of the other cards on R&D's "too good" list. A supplemental product would have to have a huge print run to put any real dent in prices, which rules out a Modern Masters-style release, or a Commander-style product. You could replace the Core Set one year with "Shit we're not going to allow in Standard but nevertheless want reprinted," but that really fucks with both their regular release schedule and player expectations. Also, it wouldn't be drafted for nearly as long as a large fall set and thus wouldn't get as many copies of the cards out there as might be desirable.

I hate to say this, but Modern is the replacement for Legacy. Yes, the DCI has its head up its ass in terms of Banned List management, and no, it will never be a sweet, spell-based format like Legacy, but what it can be is a format where WotC can painlessly reprint all kinds of staples for it, sometimes even in Standard-legal products, and thus (theoretically, anyway) keep the prices low. That won't happen because of speculators, the rising popularity of the game, and the like, but it's not like Legacy where some obscure card spikes to eleventy bajillion dollars and then stays there forever because no new supply is coming and players don't want to take a loss on a card they bought for one tournament.

[undone]

This is my thinking too - that functional reprints other than shocklands are going to be released. That would make more sense, otherwise collectors would be up in arms; either that, or they're going to do another one of those From the Vault sets with stuff actually on the reserved list.

How to reprint the dual lands in a nutshell.

"Announcing <INSERT COLD BASED COMMANDER> VS < FIVE COLOR THEMED COMMANDER>" Decks contain Snow covered dual lands. Not technically functional reprints -> See fork.

[Finn]

How to do it, make alternatives to duals...

I actually went through this exercise already. But I can make some new ones anyway. Here goes:

exhibit A
Land - Forest Plains Mountain
When exhibit A enters the battlefield, sacrifice it unless you control a Green, White, or Red permanent.

exhibit B
Land - Mountain Forest
When exhibit B enters the battlefield, sacrifice it unless reveal a red or green creature card from your hand. If you reveal a creature card in this way, gain 1 life.

Imagine that exhibits C and D are the Plateau and Savannah replacements. Now imagine putting one of each of them (4 lands total) in a deck that also has some fetches, basics, and duals. There are advantages to both designs, but also disadvantages. And it makes the land situation in a deck like Zoo, Elves, Maverick, etc far more interesting. Notice that the two exhibits here are designed to work together to supplement dual lands. You could conceivably cut duals entirely, and in Modern some decks might. But I suspect that most players would opt for a combination of a lot of different lands for more options.

exhibit E
Land - Island Plains Swamp
When exhibit E enters the battlefield, sacrifice it unless you have three or fewer cards in your hand.

exhibit F
Land - Island Swamp
When exhibit F enters the battlefield, sacrifice it unless you reveal a blue or black instant or sorcery card from your hand. If you reveal an instant or sorcery card in this way, target opponent reveals a card from his/her hand.

Again, note how the lands work together subtly as options, preferably along with just a few duals, but possibly without. They are clearly inferior to duals, but kinda not. You just play one of each.

[yes I know the wording lets you tap and then sacrifice]

..and this is just a quick example. WOTC could certainly come up with better stuff if they wanted to.

EDIT: Eck, I forgot to mention a very important detail. To make these or any cards weak enough in Standard, you just use the old Terror trick. Keep in mind that Terror used to be the premier black creature removal card for years. It was out of print for ages before they reprinted it in Mirrodin block, amongst a shitload of artifact creatures, thereby diminishing its power only in block and standard.

[cartoonist]

Seriously, why isn't Finn working for Wizards on the design team?

[SpikeyMikey]

Thank you, Ben, for chiming in once again. I really appreciate it when you give insight into your operations, even though the tone of these threads are often so hostile. (Magic players and Internet posters complaining about stuff, who didn't see that coming?) Thank you also for your continued support of the Legacy format.
I like Ben. I wouldn't want to have beers with the guy or anything; he's a little uptight and conservative for my taste, but I think he's a generally decent human being and he does take his role as a de facto spokesman for the game seriously. I'm glad that Ben is so open and that SCG is at least somewhat careful with how they swing their buying power around. However, shoe polish is hazardous to your health, so maybe you'll want to cease with the boot licking.




I am glad someone is willing to call out people who advocate or condone forgeries. While I think occasionally companies can be overzealous with their IP rights, this is pretty much a textbook example of a black-and-white case that is bad for everyone involved (except the counterfeiter). It should go without saying, but I was disturbed that the lack of comment in this thread could be construed as the Legacy community condoning forgery.

I 100% condone forgery for Magic cards and I very much doubt that I am alone. Wizards is a terrible company that produces a terrible product. Once, long ago, they produced an excellent product and for that reason, they cornered the marketplace on CCGs and can now do whatever the hell they want and rake in money because they're the only real game in town. If someone took a cut out of their pie, I would feel zero sympathy.

The fact that Magic's ridiculous bubble has bouyed a number of Magic-only or at least Magic-centric stores is nice. It's great that the prices can support specialty stores. At the same time, however, that same ridiculous bubble ruins the game itself. It's just my opinion, but I feel the game should be about, well, the game. Not about who has the deepest pockets, but about who has the deepest intellect. It's supposed to be a competition of wits and the current pricing structure simply doesn't allow for that. Wizards turned their back on us, sold us out. Forgeries might not drop the price on cards - they're certainly released slowly enough as to not make large waves in supply - but you can't help liking anything that hurts Wizards. It just has such a Robin Hood feel to it, taking from the gentry (Wizards, deep-pocketed collectors) and giving to the peasants (those of us that actually want to, you know, PLAY THE GAME).

[slave]

If you counterfeit currency, the goal is to get a 1:1 exchange and generate value over your expenses. This would be the goal for counterfeit cards as well. They guy with the counterfeit Moat is still looking for $300.
Anybody with the capabilities to run a line of cards indistinguishable from those printed by Wizards would sell them at full value, because that's the point.
Yup.
And like others have said, the sheer volume that standard requires, would mean printing off a shitload of mythic rares would probably be the better move, than to target dual lands that are very unlikely to be 10/10 Mint.

The argument about legality and risk vs reward, is a valid one, but I don't think this is any different from any other disreputable venture.
I have a friend who served 2 years prison for "ghosting" cars. When he was inside, he said the vast majority of people in there were from drugs related crime.
That's where the police are aiming the majority of their attention for organised crime.
I would think that a sneaky little venture printing cards could quite easily go unnoticed if operated with a bit of nous.

I actually asked a different friend of mine about this little idea of printing cards - he works in a printing shop - mainly does posters.
He said it would be relatively easy, provided you had high-res images to work off and a way to accurately cut the cards.
Access to the correct inks would be important, but not a deal-breaker he said.
His main issue was knowing the exact type of card they use and after that a bit of trail and error.
Time intensive stuff apparently, but very possible.
He also said to me - there's better ways to make money, you nerd! :laugh:



I 100% condone forgery for Magic cards and I very much doubt that I am alone. ..... Forgeries might not drop the price on cards - they're certainly released slowly enough as to not make large waves in supply

If forgeries are out there you'd be right.
I don't think anyone would just walk into a store with 5000 dual lands and ask to cash in. I would think eBay and the online stores are the more likely ways to get *said* cards into circulation.
That out the way;
Dual Lands are only gonna be expensive - even if someone dumped 5000 of them in one hit - genuine or not - I doubt that would drop the price much, if at all.

[VeniVidiVici]

Seriously, why isn't Finn working for Wizards on the design team?

Because none of those proposed cards would or should ever be printed?


I 100% condone forgery for Magic cards and I very much doubt that I am alone. Wizards is a terrible company that produces a terrible product. Once, long ago, they produced an excellent product and for that reason, they cornered the marketplace on CCGs and can now do whatever the hell they want and rake in money because they're the only real game in town. If someone took a cut out of their pie, I would feel zero sympathy.

The fact that Magic's ridiculous bubble has bouyed a number of Magic-only or at least Magic-centric stores is nice. It's great that the prices can support specialty stores. At the same time, however, that same ridiculous bubble ruins the game itself. It's just my opinion, but I feel the game should be about, well, the game. Not about who has the deepest pockets, but about who has the deepest intellect. It's supposed to be a competition of wits and the current pricing structure simply doesn't allow for that. Wizards turned their back on us, sold us out. Forgeries might not drop the price on cards - they're certainly released slowly enough as to not make large waves in supply - but you can't help liking anything that hurts Wizards. It just has such a Robin Hood feel to it, taking from the gentry (Wizards, deep-pocketed collectors) and giving to the peasants (those of us that actually want to, you know, PLAY THE GAME).

'Sold us out'? Really!? What obligation do you think they have to you? They're the creators of a game you claim to enjoy; they make design/business mistakes like any company does, but criticize them on that basis if you have to. If your noble devotion to valuing intellectual engagement over money or whatever is sincere, then get off your ass and do something about it. Ask your store to run proxy tournaments. Hell, set them up yourself. Your unwillingness to enter into voluntary economic transactions doesn't mean you're being oppressed, sorry.

[sdematt]

We've now got a decently sized group of people (~12-14) that come out for weekly Legacy soirees. The problem? Proxied Legacy. All these guys and gals love the format, play different decks every week, etc. The problem? There's about five of us in the room with everything, and the rest have nothing with no way to get into Legacy. Sure they play Standard, and it's not cheap, but it's less expensive than playing a real deck in Legacy (not counting Burn, Dredge, Affinity, etc.).

I have some to lose in the case of reprints. I have a lot of dual lands. Too many to use personally, but I don't want to sell out since I don't need to. Am I part of the problem? Maybe. But the point is, I stand to lose value from reprints but yet I still support them. It's nice that these bricks of paper are better than stocks, but they shouldn't be. That's not what they were designed for. Who did they make these reprint policy promises to? Who is actually speculating on large bricks of cards besides stores?

Even if they don't do direct reprints, SOMETHING needs to be done to get more players into the format. There is a demand to play this great format, access is the issue.

-Matt

[mini1337s]

My impression of the state of Legacy:
NSFW: http://i.imgur.com/Q33SqD5.jpg

[SpikeyMikey]

'Sold us out'? Really!? What obligation do you think they have to you? They're the creators of a game you claim to enjoy; they make design/business mistakes like any company does, but criticize them on that basis if you have to. If your noble devotion to valuing intellectual engagement over money or whatever is sincere, then get off your ass and do something about it. Ask your store to run proxy tournaments. Hell, set them up yourself. Your unwillingness to enter into voluntary economic transactions doesn't mean you're being oppressed, sorry.

Wizards doesn't have any obligation to me. But the point I was contesting was the idea that I have some moral obligation not to support someone fucking them over. I don't owe shit to Wizards either. A dozen years ago, yeah, I would've felt that I owed Wizards for putting out such a great game. But now? Saying "oh, I'm glad someone called all you people out for supporting something illegal" is stupid. You know what else is illegal? Speeding. I damn sure support that too, because there are plenty of places where the speed limit is too low. I'm glad people speed. I'd be glad if there was a serious forging operation going on somewhere in Asia. I also support the groups that threaten violent response to Westboro Baptist Church demonstrations. Is it illegal to make credible threats against people? Sure, but I'm not complaining about it.

Proxy tournaments don't help. Even if they did, I work 70 hours a week and have an additional standing commitment to judge at an LGS on Tuesday nights; I don't have time to TO anything. Nor do I have time to create forgeries to play with. I'm just saying that if someone else is doing it, I'm all for it.

[TsumiBand]

Proxies are no good as long as people want sanctioned events. Also, and this could just be a TMD rumor, not sure - it's been coming down the pipe for a while now @ Vintage that TOs are gearing up for the day when Wizards asks them not to run proxy events, "or else" (if it hasn't already, I'm not really in touch with Vintage anymore but I still lurk at TMD from time to time). It's an unfortunate example of what will always separate this game, or any other TCG that features a format without a core set of reprinted product, from achieving Dr. Garfield's intent of adding Magic up there with Poker and Chess. Chess can be played by anyone anywhere for little to no cost. A pack of playing cards is cheap as shit. We talk about $500 decks like they're "budget".

[joemauer]

Wizards doesn't have any obligation to me. But the point I was contesting was the idea that I have some moral obligation not to support someone fucking them over. I don't owe shit to Wizards either. A dozen years ago, yeah, I would've felt that I owed Wizards for putting out such a great game. But now? Saying "oh, I'm glad someone called all you people out for supporting something illegal" is stupid. You know what else is illegal? Speeding. I damn sure support that too, because there are plenty of places where the speed limit is too low. I'm glad people speed. I'd be glad if there was a serious forging operation going on somewhere in Asia. I also support the groups that threaten violent response to Westboro Baptist Church demonstrations. Is it illegal to make credible threats against people? Sure, but I'm not complaining about it.

Proxy tournaments don't help. Even if they did, I work 70 hours a week and have an additional standing commitment to judge at an LGS on Tuesday nights; I don't have time to TO anything. Nor do I have time to create forgeries to play with. I'm just saying that if someone else is doing it, I'm all for it.

I'm with you SpikeyMikey. After we are done speeding down the highway to pick up prostitutes while shooting up, then we can go print our own hundred dollar bills because the fed is so incompetent.

[Nihil Credo]

I'm with you SpikeyMikey. After we are done speeding down the highway to pick up prostitutes while shooting up, then we can go print our own hundred dollar bills because the fed is so incompetent.SpikeyMikey once bragged - bragged - about trying to slam another car off the road. Don't tell him that sort of stuff, he might take you seriously.

On topic, it's worthwhile to note that forgeries of in-print Magic cards primarily hurts WotC as well as stores and collectors, but forgeries of out-of-print cards like Force of Will has zero direct effect on WotC's bottom line, and only affects those of stores and collectors (in the sense that they won't see their cards' values rise further, of course).

[Slag]

While supporting speeding seems like a request for some unpleasant karmic backlash and threatening violence against Westboro is actually supporting them (their entire m.o. is to protest something volatile, get attacked or harassed, and then sue for cash), Spikeymikey is right about the pricing structure affecting the integrity of the game. Would chess be held in high esteem if you could pay $30 a pop for extra queens? Probably not. However, I fully believe that the current system of expansion, rarity and card availability, exploitative though it may be, is giving the game longevity it might not have had otherwise. The big question is going to be how long until the system breaks down, and if there is a better, more...nurturing way to run magic.

[lyracian]

Proxies are no good as long as people want sanctioned events. Who needs sanctioned events? I would rather play against good decks full of black and white print outs than bad decks. I also do not see Wizards being able to do anything about Proxy tournaments.


However, I fully believe that the current system of expansion, rarity and card availability, exploitative though it may be, is giving the game longevity it might not have had otherwise. The big question is going to be how long until the system breaks down, and if there is a better, more...nurturing way to run magic.I doubt there is a more nurturing way for Hasbro's profit margins. They have already starting doing new cards in sealed product (Shardless Agent anyone?). While it is a nice method to put out new cards for Eternal Format it gets expensive if you want play sets of all the new cards. So long as people keep playing Standard they will keep on printing new sets and if people have stopped playing standard there may not be much hope for the game at all.

In fact if you really want to see FoW reprint you need Wizards to go bust and then whoever buys the IP off Hasbro will not be bound by the stupid "Reserved list" and can flood the market with black border Moxes. :smile:

[Slag]

I doubt there is a more nurturing way for Hasbro's profit margins. They have already starting doing new cards in sealed product (Shardless Agent anyone?).

You've got it. The current system, which capitalizes on magic players' love of staying current in the card pool and of constantly seeking new combinations of cards, works really well. One would assume, however, that there is a limit to the resources the player base is willing to invest, and they may well burn out progressively larger numbers of consumers as time goes on. A more long term solution would be able to keep longtime players engaged without overtaxing them. What that solution could be is beyond me.

[Koby]

You've got it. The current system, which capitalizes on magic players' love of staying current in the card pool and of constantly seeking new combinations of cards, works really well. One would assume, however, that there is a limit to the resources the player base is willing to invest, and they may well burn out progressively larger numbers of consumers as time goes on. A more long term solution would be able to keep longtime players engaged without overtaxing them. What that solution could be is beyond me.

The solution already exists:

Vintage

How can you possibly print a better card than Ancestral Recall without completely turning Standard upsidedown? Vintage cards are properly costed (mana); they cannot be improved upon. The only modifications needed for most Vintage decks is on the order of 5 cards / year - the majority of which are Uncommons.

[twndomn]

The solution already exists:

Vintage

How can you possibly print a better card than Ancestral Recall without completely turning Standard upsidedown? Vintage cards are properly costed (mana); they cannot be improved upon. The only modifications needed for most Vintage decks is on the order of 5 cards / year - the majority of which are Uncommons.

Vintage has different problems. Most of its decks have similar if not identical staples, then it is compounded with lack of tournament support. Because many of the cards cannot be improved upon, they are stale. Then again if you continue to compare the 2 formats, really should not be done on the legacy forum.

[dontbiteitholmes]

ITT: A bunch of grown men acting like children and sharing fantasies of ruining an international company because they would rather ruin it for everyone than play with proxied cards at some point in the future.

[TsumiBand]

Who needs sanctioned events? I would rather play against good decks full of black and white print outs than bad decks. I also do not see Wizards being able to do anything about Proxy tournaments.

So this would be a good place to ask that question, wouldn't it. I mean this is one of the go-to places regarding competitive, innovative Legacy MtG, right? Maybe we can get a quick show of hands here, if people would prefer sanctioned tourneys or proxies.

It isn't even like the option doesn't already exist; in the words of my ex-girlfriend, "there's the door". One can disconnect from sanctioned play entirely and just start printing all their cards if they want to. I mean you can play Chess with a bucket of two-colored rocks on a grid; doesn't change the game any amirite?

And as I understand it, the pressure comes from the idea that Wizards doesn't have to recognize a venue as an official tournament spot, which would mean their Standard support could be pulled, maybe they can't have PTQs anymore, probably other consequences too that I can't think of right now b/c I have to clock into work and I haven't had my coffee yet, goddammit.

[Ellomdian]

"If, on the other hand, the complaint isn’t about playing Legacy on a budget, but instead regarding an inability to netdeck the latest eight blue dual tournament winner, then your problem isn’t with Legacy, it’s with Magic."

That's a quote from a Caleb Durwald article 18 months ago. While I am a little surprised that FoW is aggressive again (have to wonder if stock is low,) Jace, FoW, and Delta/Sea all show up in most Esper Stoneblade lists, and Esper Stoneblade is the deck most of the "pros" chose to run at the invitational.

I had no issue picking up 4x JTMS in Nov/Dec before Denver @ $80/ea, even allowing that some of the price then could be on speculation for a Modern unbanning. I feel that buying in at effectively a 52-week high is not going to give you the best value, but I don't feel that you will be able to get him at less than $90 for a while.

[bruizar]

Who needs sanctioned events? I would rather play against good decks full of black and white print outs than bad decks. I also do not see Wizards being able to do anything about Proxy tournaments.


Go play on MWS and dump paper magic all together than. price is no issue there.

I refuse to play against proxies, period.

[Koby]

Vintage has different problems. Most of its decks have similar if not identical staples, then it is compounded with lack of tournament support. Because many of the cards cannot be improved upon, they are stale. Then again if you continue to compare the 2 formats, really should not be done on the legacy forum.

Sounds to me like the same issues that are being discussed in Legacy right now; not enough copies for everyone to use. Hence the discussion of Proxies.
You may want to read my post in relation to the quote included. It's a continuation to Slag's post rather than a comment on the entire thread.

Quick poll: anyone consider Ancestral Recall or Time Walk to be stale?

(rhetorical, no need to respond)

[feline]

Tabernacle just hit 500 bucks, wasn't expecting that!

[Lord Seth]

Tabernacle just hit 500 bucks, wasn't expecting that!There goes my hopes of eventually building 12-Post.

[lyracian]

Go play on MWS and dump paper magic all together than. price is no issue there.
I refuse to play against proxies, period.No thanks. I spend the whole day stuck in front of a flickering screen; I like the chance to actually see real people.

I own 90% of the Legacy staples so personally do not care if an event is proxy or not. However there are not many other local players with old cards. Most of them are students who have only been playing since Zendikar so even Modern events are 12 card proxy here.


Tabernacle just hit 500 bucks, wasn't expecting that!
Glad I already have one then; guess I will not be getting a second.

[dontbiteitholmes]

There goes my hopes of eventually building 12-Post.

Don't worry. As usual the price quoted by feline is just the price one online store (SCG) is "charging" for a NM card they are currently out of stock in. It's not the actual price for a Tabernacle (even a PSA graded 9.5 on Ebay went for slightly under $500). A normal NM English Tabernacle is worth about $350-$400 and Italian ones in slightly lesser condition occasionally creep down to $200ish range (but more realistically $250).

This is why I continually ridicule feline for quoting online prices as if, "WHAT THIS SHIT IS TOTALLY WORTH, OMG CAN YOU BELIEVE A RUG DELVER DECK IS WORTH $3000 BECAUSE TCG PLAYER SAYS SO!!!11!!!!11!1!1!!!"

[feline]

Actually I get the prices from here http://ark42.com/mtg/pricehistory.php?q=The+Tabernacle+at+Pendrell+Vale&d=0

As far as the tcg goes, I try to use the price range from low end to high end, I have to come up with some number though I can't just be like "well it says 70-to-130, so I'll post it as 40" for some whatever reason, if one wanted to make the argument that they are only worth what someone is willing to pay, then I could put anything from zero to 1,000 next to any card.

[lyracian]

Actually I get the prices from here http://ark42.com/mtg/pricehistory.php?q=The+Tabernacle+at+Pendrell+Vale&d=0
There is no information on that page about where the app gets its data; is is just tracking SCG? There is still plenty on ebay cheaper.

[feline]

Yea I know, I wish I knew where it was coming from because it shows trends like that, but I've never been able to figure it out.

[Arsenal]

Don't worry. As usual the price quoted by feline is just the price one online store (SCG) is "charging" for a NM card they are currently out of stock in. It's not the actual price for a Tabernacle (even a PSA graded 9.5 on Ebay went for slightly under $500). A normal NM English Tabernacle is worth about $350-$400 and Italian ones in slightly lesser condition occasionally creep down to $200ish range (but more realistically $250).

This is why I continually ridicule feline for quoting online prices as if, "WHAT THIS SHIT IS TOTALLY WORTH, OMG CAN YOU BELIEVE A RUG DELVER DECK IS WORTH $3000 BECAUSE TCG PLAYER SAYS SO!!!11!!!!11!1!1!!!"

Again, once the industry leader (SCG) raises the price ceiling, all other sellers (private and commercial) will eventually follow suit. It may not be overnight, but eventually, you will not be able to find a Tabernacle for the prices you're quoting due to all other sellers raising their prices to match SCG's.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Again, once the industry leader (SCG) raises the price ceiling, all other sellers (private and commercial) will eventually follow suit. It may not be overnight, but eventually, you will not be able to find a Tabernacle for the prices you're quoting due to all other sellers raising their prices to match SCG's.

Oh so THAT'S why literally no Legacy cards sell on Ebay for the SCG price. I was confused, because you would think I could sell my private collection for SCG prices based on the argument you just put forth, but in reality it's more like 25% under that on Ebay. Must be for the same reason I wouldn't have much luck selling a gallon of milk for 3.00 when the grocery store sells it for 3.50, I don't have the access to the market they do. In another way though what you are saying is "The prices of cards will eventually rise to match what SCG is currently charging," which is true, but will they rise BECAUSE SCG raised the prices, or is that just something that would have happened naturally even if SCG completely stopped buying and selling cards at this very moment? (Protip: it would have happened anyways, as it always did since way before SCG was even a thing.)

SCG and other online stores sell to the entire internet and for most singles their supply is limited to what people will sell to them. Since they pay taxes and overhead that I don't (save Ebay fees perhaps) they have to sell at a significantly higher price then they buy at. Since anyone can go on Ebay and sell say card XYZ for $100 (and make maybe $85 on the sale after all the fees and such) no one is going to sell that card to them for $50 so they will have to pay at least $70-$75 to get any takers, and even then a larger amount of people will probably go Ebay just for the extra % since most people sell cards in bunches anyways. So since they pay less than Ebay they get a lower # of cards. Say they get 10 of card XYZ at their buy price every month and sell out instantly, what do? Obviously raise the sell price on the website since people are out there who will pay more than the current sell price for XYZ. Alternatively they could raise their buy price and attempt to get more people to sell them XYZ, or of course they probably do both. If they just raise the buy price on a high dollar card without raising the sell price they end up having a lot of money tied up in expensive cards with low margins.

Take Tabernacle for example. Right now a NM Tabernacle is worth around $400ish on Ebay. SCG pays $300 on Tabernacle and has zero in stock, so we can assume they get a very low number of Tabernacles at that buy price but it doesn't make sense for them to offer much more. They know Tabernacle is worth around $400 but if they put one on their site at that price it will sell almost instantly and they might not see another one for some time. So instead they pay $300 for a Tabernacle and mark it up to $500. It might take "a while" to sell, but eventually it will sell because their audience is so large. If I try to sell a Tabernacle right now for $500 it's not going to happen, but all SCG needs is one guy maybe every 2-3 weeks to be willing to pay that out of the thousands and thousands and thousands of people who go to their site.

So SCG can't be a well run business if they are paying "what a card is worth" and if they pay to little they can't keep a stock of cards. If they can't get anyone to sell them a card the natural reaction is to raise the buy and sale price. They were selling FOW @ $65 but it's worth about that on Ebay, so obviously they weren't able to offer enough cash to get people to part with their FOWs as fast as they were selling them when they were so close to the actual value. They HAD to raise the buy price, but with the buy price going up they can't afford to sell so close to the Ebay price. This isn't a case of the market adjusting to SCG so much as SCG adjusting to the market.

SCG and other online store prices represent the CEILING of card prices (IE if you pay over SCG prices you are a fool) SCG and other stores buylist prices represent the FLOOR of card prices (IE if you are selling for less you are getting a bad deal).



Actually I get the prices from here http://ark42.com/mtg/pricehistory.php?q=The+Tabernacle+at+Pendrell+Vale&d=0

As far as the tcg goes, I try to use the price range from low end to high end, I have to come up with some number though I can't just be like "well it says 70-to-130, so I'll post it as 40" for some whatever reason, if one wanted to make the argument that they are only worth what someone is willing to pay, then I could put anything from zero to 1,000 next to any card.

Oh yes, of course. That respected Magic price guide of randomurl.com. TCG represents what stores are willing to sell for, which is almost always going to be well over Ebay values for obvious reasons. You put up these price guides with ridiculous dealer prices that just scare people away from the format, just stop, seriously STOP. When I look at those posts I want to ship my entire collection, then I look up what stuff is really worth and change my mind. You are listing the Bestbuy price when people who should be concerned with the price of decks need to be shopping on Amazon.com. Seriously I know you are trying to help, but give it up. If someone wants to build RUG Delver let them go online and look up what Force of Will/duals/fetches/Goyf are actually worth on Ebay instead of just throwing out some price guide produced by dealers with an agenda to put out the idea that they set the value of cards and not the free market or some shitty javascript site that probably just scrapes online stores anyways. If someone is going to invest the still considerable amount into a Legacy deck they owe it to themselves to shop around instead of just scrolling a list of Legacy decks purported to cost almost as much as my Vintage MUD deck and just be like "Whelp guess I can either build RUG Delver or buy a car, I'll never play Legacy."

I have NEVER seen you quote a price that wasn't well over Ebay value. In my book a card costs what I can reasonably buy it for within a short amount of time. If there isn't a price guide for that either learn data mining and make one or stop quoting prices. Either way stop scaring off all the newbs. In my book you complain about SCG but it's people like you who are the problem, all you ever talk about is how expensive everything is (It is expensive enough without the embellished notion that you can't get the cards way cheaper than SCG/TCG prices).

[Arsenal]

I can almost guarantee that all of those $300-400 Tabernacles on ebay were posted before SCG raised their price to $500.00. I'd wager that if the ebay sellers were to pull their auction off, then re-list, they'd re-list at a selling price much closer to SCG's selling price.

My teammate looking to unload his extra playset of FoW was the happiest dude ever when his buyer failed to pay him as SCG increased FoW to $100 during that time, so now my friend can re-list and get closer to $80ea instead of the $65ea he had them originally listed at. I'd imagine other sellers are of a similar mindset.

[Ellomdian]

People are eager to apply tools like historical price tracking to the values of cards, and yet they seem to forget the fundamental principal that this is a MARKET. If Tabernacle is on SCG at $500, and they have a million of them, then their ask price is likely to be very close (if not under) the actual Market price. Their acquisition cost factors in, but even if they are paying 70% of cash value on that day, they are making a profit (on that individual set of transactions) at the Market price. If there are no Tabernacles in stock, anywhere, than the Market price is likely to creep up if demand is ahead of supply. S&D is why I always chuckle when I see the ask prices of Pimp-nonsense like Foil Japanese Misprint Jace Licked By Felicia Day - you have one in stock, you are charging $5000 for it, it's only actually worth $5k if someone wants it.

The other thing about a market - you can make Buy offers, just as easily as someone can make a Sell offer. If you are looking at making a serious (more than $500) purchase, you can generally schedule a time to sit down with a Magic seller (I've personally done it with SCG at events, if you schedule when they have dead time.) Your local card store might have a $150 price tag on that JTMS, but if they don't sell a lot of them, you can offer $135 and see what happens. You are offering to take the risk if the card drops in value, and many (most?) local game stores are happy to turn a measurable, immediate cash profit on a deal. I keep my ear to the ground about local buys of old cards so that I can offer %75-80 cash to the store on the spot, and while I do not close every offer I make, it's a lot easier to stomach buying Legacy staples if you feel like you got a good deal.

[nedleeds]

Again, once the industry leader (SCG) raises the price ceiling, all other sellers (private and commercial) will eventually follow suit. It may not be overnight, but eventually, you will not be able to find a Tabernacle for the prices you're quoting due to all other sellers raising their prices to match SCG's.

Yeah. Like Aluren. errr ... wait ... they tried to move the market there and the market told them to ride a mule dick ...

[Arsenal]

Yeah. Like Aluren. errr ... wait ... they tried to move the market there and the market told them to ride a mule dick ...

Aluren has not dropped back to it's pre-increase price, so I'd say that SCG's price hype definitely impacted the market.

[bruizar]

The time it took people to read up on all the conversation about the price jump of force of will would be enough to purchase a playset of Fows at minimum wage.

[SpikeyMikey]

Oh so THAT'S why literally no Legacy cards sell on Ebay for the SCG price. I was confused, because you would think I could sell my private collection for SCG prices based on the argument you just put forth, but in reality it's more like 25% under that on Ebay. Must be for the same reason I wouldn't have much luck selling a gallon of milk for 3.00 when the grocery store sells it for 3.50, I don't have the access to the market they do. In another way though what you are saying is "The prices of cards will eventually rise to match what SCG is currently charging," which is true, but will they rise BECAUSE SCG raised the prices, or is that just something that would have happened naturally even if SCG completely stopped buying and selling cards at this very moment? (Protip: it would have happened anyways, as it always did since way before SCG was even a thing.)


You're right. You do have to sell under SCG prices. It's not, however, a matter of market, it's a matter of name. It's less like milk and more like cars. A brand new $40,000 car can be picked up for half that or less, 2 years later. So why do people buy new cars when there are used cars out there? Because of the perception that a new car is less likely to have problems. You don't know the provenance of the car you picked up from some guy 6 blocks over. You don't know the maintenance record. You don't know what issues the car has previously had. You're buying on faith from someone you don't know. Even buying a used car from a dealership is going to cost more than buying a used car on Craigslist but most people will buy from the dealership. Because there's still a name there. Smaller than 'Ford' or 'Toyota', but still a name that's well-known, locally. So you'd rather buy from them than someone you don't know and you're willing to pay a little extra for that piece of mind.

That's what happens when I buy from you on eBay. I don't know you. I don't know if the card is going to be in the condition you say it is. I don't know if you're going to ship it in time for me to get it for the tournament that I desperately need it for. I don't know if you're even going to ship it at all! I'm certainly not going to pay you the same price that I would SCG because then I could just get it from SCG. I know that (barring occasional mistakes) the condition will be right. I know it will be shipped on time. I know that they're not some fly-by-night. This is a massive business for them and their reputation is very important to that.

Now that doesn't answer the question of what forces drive the market. To some extent, it's demand. But demand has less impact on the market than you'd think. Look at the broad play of cheap cards like Rest in Peace. It's heavily played in all 3 major formats. Restoration Angel is fairly heavily played in Standard, played some in Modern and unplayable in Legacy. Restoration Angel is 750% of the price of Rest in Peace. Even given higher play in Standard and casual appeal, that's obviously not simply a matter of supply and demand. It's a psychological thing. People FEEL like Restoration Angel should be worth more because it's an exciting card. Supply is restricted because people are more likely to hold on to their Restoration Angels. Rest in Peace is something people feel like they can pick up for cheap and so it is. The value of Magic cards generally has less to do with the actual quantity out there as it does with the psychological desire to retain the card.

What SCG charges for Magic cards does raise the price of the rest of the market. Everyone was happily buying and selling Scalding Tarns for $15 when SCG bought out the bottom half of TCG Player and raised their price to $30. Within days, the price shot up, following the lead of the big dog in the marketplace. I mean, I'm not sure how you could've missed that one. That's not "prices went up and SCG reluctantly raised their buy and sell prices to keep up". That's "Ben decided that Misty/Tarn were not $15 cards, made a move on them and everyone else scrambled to keep up". SCG is buylisting Force at $60. How long do you think that eBay prices are going to remain near the SCG buylist? Keeping in mind that again, selling to SCG means not having to worry about your buyer swearing they never got the cards and filing a claim. It means not having to pay eBay listing fees. The price will go up because the number of people willing to put a Force on eBay for $65 is going to reach 0.

Personally, I don't buy shit off of eBay. I generally don't buy from SCG either, but if I need cards, I pick them up on TCG Player. I know the cards will be delivered in a timely fashion and I worry less about problems with shipping or condition. You buy on eBay, but that doesn't reflect the common experience. Saying "I can find it for $40 on eBay so therefore it's $40" is pointless. If the normal buy and sell point for most people is $50, it's a $50 card. Congratulations on getting it for a steal. I paid $18,000 for my car from the dealership. It should've been around $22,000 according to KBB. I got a great deal. But I don't go around saying that it's an $18,000 car and anyone who pays $22,000 got robbed. That's the normal price point. That's what it's "worth".

[DragoFireheart]

I have bought cards on ebay.

Tundras to be exact. They were listed as mint but were actually used. The price was right, but the listing is wrong.

Ebay is not the glorious answer some people pretend it is.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I bought most of my collection except for power off of Ebay and I highly recommend it. When shit went wrong I always got my money back. I also got some absolutely ridiculous deals on there. My collection is much larger than it would have been otherwise and that's all I have to say about that. If you pay online store prices for cards I feel bad for you. If I buy a "NM" dual off Ebay for $90 and it comes in NM- condition where you can only see a little wear when you hold it up to the light or whatever I'm still happier than if I paid $120 from some dealer and got an "actual NM" card but maybe that's just me. I buy the cards to play the game first and foremost, condition is important but I was willing to occasionally take a small hit in condition to get what amounts to a huge discount when you factor in the number of high dollar cards I was buying. When I go to sell I might lose a couple bucks here and there on condition but it will more than be made up for when I factor in that I used the savings to buy more cards that have since gone up in value. If people are pricing Legacy decks they should be aware that they can easily purchase the cards to play the game MUCH cheaper than the LOW prices listed by TCG player.

The car analogy isn't valid for obvious reasons. A lemon car means you are down thousands and have to spend thousands more to buy new wheels. A lemon on Ebay means worst case scenario you can send it back for a refund and get your money back. It's not like your Underground Sea playset is going to show up looking mint then explode randomly one day. IMO my collection is proof enough that my method is an extremely effective.

[twndomn]

I have bought cards on ebay.

Ebay is not the glorious answer some people pretend it is.

Most topics I disagree with DragoFireheart, regarding eBay, he's correct. As matter of fact, Paypal is insecure. eBay's customer service is horrible, totally biased towards sellers into scamming buyers. This is all speaking from personal experience. Only eBay when everything else fails.

[nedleeds]

Aluren has not dropped back to it's pre-increase price, so I'd say that SCG's price hype definitely impacted the market.

It's $5 from troll and toad today.
It was $5 from troll and toad in January 2010.

What a fucking impact! We talkin' Morgan Freeman as president deep impact!

Secondly, it's a reserved list card that does something absurd. If you don't own 4 when it costs < $10 then it's your own fault if it ever actually spikes to a real big boy price.

[Arsenal]

It's $5 from troll and toad today.
It was $5 from troll and toad in January 2010.

What a fucking impact! We talkin' Morgan Freeman as president deep impact!

Secondly, it's a reserved list card that does something absurd. If you don't own 4 when it costs < $10 then it's your own fault if it ever actually spikes to a real big boy price.

Good find, although Troll & Toad's pricing is under every other online retailer's price, so if you look at the overall market (and not just one specific store), then my statement is still accurate in that the price hasn't dropped back to pre-SCG hype levels (aside from Troll & Toad).

[feline]

Well then maybe you can quote prices on cards with your method instead, I'm sorry I keep track of stuff in the format which include prices from sights like SCG & TCGplayer's range total, etc.

[Arsenal]

Well then maybe you can quote prices on cards with your method instead, I'm sorry I keep track of stuff in the format which include prices from sights like SCG & TCGplayer's range total, etc.

His "method" is finding "absolutely rediculous deals". Surely you must realize that an industry leader lowering/raising prices will have absolutely no impact on the market because there will always be "absolutely rediculous deals" on ebay. Want proof? Just check out his "absolutely rediculous" collection!!!

[LennonMarx]

His "method" is finding "absolutely rediculous deals". Surely you must realize that an industry leader lowering/raising prices will have absolutely no impact on the market because there will always be "absolutely rediculous deals" on ebay. Want proof? Just check out his "absolutely rediculous" collection!!!

There is defiantly truth in what he says, but I think Spikey's car comparison is pretty apt. Yes, you can get sweet deals on Ebay, but that doesn't mean that is the price of those cards, it just means you got a sweet deal. Buying cards piecemeal on Ebay takes a real amount of time, too. I'd rather point a new player at felines list and say "Yeah, you can buy the deck outright for that much money, though some parts you are better off ebaying" than saying to that same person "Yeah, man, you can play this format with us in 6 months to a year if you just wait to pick all the sweet deals up on Ebay for your cards."

[Arsenal]

There is defiantly truth in what he says, but I think Spikey's car comparison is pretty apt. Yes, you can get sweet deals on Ebay, but that doesn't mean that is the price of those cards, it just means you got a sweet deal. Buying cards piecemeal on Ebay takes a real amount of time, too. I'd rather point a new player at felines list and say "Yeah, you can buy the deck outright for that much money, though some parts you are better off ebaying" than saying to that same person "Yeah, man, you can play this format with us in 6 months to a year if you just wait to pick all the sweet deals up on Ebay for your cards."

I've gotten some good deals on ebay in the past too, but I'm not going to sit here and think "my ebay experience = market standard", which is the attitude I'm picking up from dontbiteitholmes.

[dontbiteitholmes]

His "method" is finding "absolutely rediculous deals". Surely you must realize that an industry leader lowering/raising prices will have absolutely no impact on the market because there will always be "absolutely rediculous deals" on ebay. Want proof? Just check out his "absolutely rediculous" collection!!!

Haha, I love the internet. People get so bent out of shape talking about buying cards cheaper on Ebay.

Arsenal ===> :'(

I get the occasional insane deal, but that's just a bonus. The real meat is that the other 99% of my buys were WELL under store prices, which adds up pretty quick (In fact if you look at Ebay you'll notice almost every auction is well under SCG prices), but whatever it's your money.

[Arsenal]

Haha, I love the internet. People get so bent out of shape talking about buying cards cheaper on Ebay.

Arsenal ===> :'(

Hats off to your astounding sleuthing abilities good sir. Your emoticon encapsulates my emotions exquisitely.

[Lt. Quattro]

Most topics I disagree with DragoFireheart, regarding eBay, he's correct. As matter of fact, Paypal is insecure. eBay's customer service is horrible, totally biased towards sellers into scamming buyers. This is all speaking from personal experience. Only eBay when everything else fails.

Ebay is actually biased towards buyers, just check out their ebay buyer protection program.


There is defiantly truth in what he says, but I think Spikey's car comparison is pretty apt. Yes, you can get sweet deals on Ebay, but that doesn't mean that is the price of those cards, it just means you got a sweet deal. Buying cards piecemeal on Ebay takes a real amount of time, too. I'd rather point a new player at felines list and say "Yeah, you can buy the deck outright for that much money, though some parts you are better off ebaying" than saying to that same person "Yeah, man, you can play this format with us in 6 months to a year if you just wait to pick all the sweet deals up on Ebay for your cards."

Six months to a year to buy cards off ebay? Its clear you have no idea what your talking about, please redirect that hypothetical new player to someone who knows what they are talking about.

[Megadeus]

Yeah wtf am i reading? EBay is totally in the buyers favor. If they claimed they got ripped, good luck.

[nedleeds]

Good find, although Troll & Toad's pricing is under every other online retailer's price, so if you look at the overall market (and not just one specific store), then my statement is still accurate in that the price hasn't dropped back to pre-SCG hype levels (aside from Troll & Toad).

So your theory about large retailers moving prices is fine for SCG when it goes in the direction of your argument, but not for a top 500 internet retailer on earth when your theory doesn't hold water? Please.

[Julian23]

Ebay/Paypal have some of the most strict buyer protection in the industry. Selling a card only to have the buyer file a complaint which takes AGES to resolve through Ebay/Paypal is a real pain the ass.

[Arsenal]

I suppose it depends on how much people are willing to pay. Take for example this decklist: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1084816

Vidi's GP Denver Esperblade list. The current TCG average is $2,815.83. You can either pay $2,815.83 to buy all of the cards immediately or you can use alternate methods (ebay/trade locally/etc) to acquire the needed cards. How much do you plan on saving solely using alternate methods? 10%? 20%? 30%? Also, how much longer do you need to acquire the cards solely using alternate methods? 1 week additional? 2 weeks? 1 month?

[Arsenal]

So your theory about large retailers moving prices is fine for SCG when it goes in the direction of your argument, but not for a top 500 internet retailer on earth when your theory doesn't hold water? Please.

Like I said, good find, but look at it like this: Take Troll & Toad out of the equation, and your argument doesn't hold. Take SCG out of the equation, and my argument still stands. It's really not that complicated...

[Julian23]

Meanwhile in Europe... (https://www.magickartenmarkt.de/Aluren_Tempest.c1p8842.prod)
(We should make this a meme)

[nedleeds]

Like I said, good find, but look at it like this: Take Troll & Toad out of the equation, and your argument doesn't hold. Take SCG out of the equation, and my argument still stands. It's really not that complicated...

The next highest price on TCG is $6.50 ... Whoa nelly that's gonna getcha in the pocket wallet!

[Arsenal]

The next highest price on TCG is $6.50 ... Whoa nelly that's gonna getcha in the pocket wallet!

So, I'm right, but since the next highest price isn't high enough for you, you won't admit you're wrong? Okay.

[lochlan]

So, I'm right, but since the next highest price isn't high enough for you, you won't admit you're wrong? Okay.

Please stop.

Aluren has basically dropped to it's pre-hype price. Troll and Toad might be on the low end but they have 60 copies in stock. Arguing whether or not the card might be a buck or two higher is pointless, the main thing to take from this is that the spike was temporary.

[nedleeds]

Maybe. I mean we haven't strictly defined what % gain or absolute gain or loss constitutes this price fixing conspiracy you are pushing.

However, I will say that if a $1.50 matters to you then you shouldn't be playing Magic; you should go to a real college or technical school and get a degree or a life skill, to get a job, so that $1.50 no longer matters to you.

[Koby]

Maybe. I mean we haven't strictly defined what % gain or absolute gain or loss constitutes this price fixing conspiracy you are pushing.

However, I will say that if a $1.50 matters to you then you shouldn't be playing Magic; you should go to a real college or technical school and get a degree or a life skill, to get a job, so that $1.50 no longer matters to you.

This.

The amount of wasted breath in this forum could have easily bought 10x Aluren at whatever fucking price its at.
Instead of worrying about the price of fucking cardboard, practice with your deck and take it to a big tournament. Win said tournament. After that, the price of the deck won't matter much because you'll have won a lot of $$$ with it.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I suppose it depends on how much people are willing to pay. Take for example this decklist: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1084816

Vidi's GP Denver Esperblade list. The current TCG average is $2,815.83. You can either pay $2,815.83 to buy all of the cards immediately or you can use alternate methods (ebay/trade locally/etc) to acquire the needed cards. How much do you plan on saving solely using alternate methods? 10%? 20%? 30%? Also, how much longer do you need to acquire the cards solely using alternate methods? 1 week additional? 2 weeks? 1 month?

Let's test this theory. I'll gone down the expensive cards and take literally the most recently completed listings off Ebay. So we'll pretend you just got on earlier today and had the winning bid on all the most recently closed auctions and compare that price to TCG player... For the sake of my sanity I'll round some values at $.50, on Ebay I'll add shipping to cost of card. I'll ignore anything foil/pimp or HP and MP when a LP is available within a couple bucks on both side to make it fair (in case the most recent on Ebay was pimped out or the cheapest on either side was damaged or in rather poor condition).

1x V Clique TCG LP $43, Ebay LP $36 Savings $7
3x Jace the Mind Sculptor LP, TCG Low $136.50, $137 $139, Ebay- $125 NM,$112 NM,$130 NM. Savings $45.50
3x Thoughtseize TCG all LP $50, $52, $53 Ebay- 2x VG/NM $82, 1x $43 VG Savings $28.50
1x Karakas TCG LP $83 Ebay skipped ital, foil, graded, 1st regular Karakas $67 NM Savings $16
3x Tundra TCG LP $96, $102, $103 Skip one idiot who BIN'd a Tundra for $125 and a whole lot of MP/HP for cheap, $86 NM, $90 LP, $92 NM Savings $33
3x Underground Sea LP,LP,NM TCG $136, $138, $145 Ebay $127, $135 (BIN), $122 Savings $35
1x Scrubland, $5ish who's counting
Polluted Delta wash
Flooded Strand wash
Force of Will wash

Savings from just chosing Ebay and having zero patience (all auctions ended within past 48 hours) you just saved ~ $170 and that's factoring in Ebay shipping but NOT TCG (which would definitely be real cash in this case since it's many different stores). Now there were a lot of auctions (especially the ones that were a wash) where if I dug a little deeper there were some savings there, but aside from throwing out that one BIN'd Tundra I didn't skip anything relevant. Now, the end of the work week I found was the worst time to buys cards on Ebay (people just have those checks burning holes in their pockets), but imagine if instead of picking just the random last relevant auctions on payday we shopped around for a week... The online stores still have their purpose. I mean most of the newer stuff isn't much of a difference between Ebay and the store and of course the smaller stuff that isn't worth Ebaying, but really I think that's a pretty good indication of how it goes (and if I did this on a Sunday you'd see a lot more contrast I would guess).

If people spent as much time looking for good deals on cards as they do complaining about prices there'd be a lot more Legacy players.

[DLifshitz]

The amount of wasted breath in this forum could have easily bought 10x Aluren at whatever fucking price its at.Instead of worrying about the price of fucking cardboard, practice with your deck and take it to a big tournament. Win said tournament. After that, the price of the deck won't matter much because you'll have won a lot of $$$ with it.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think many people here are complaining because the high and rising prices are certainly discouraging other people from getting into Legacy, and not because they themselves are directly affected. Although given that the average deck seems to cost $1500, I don't see how things can possibly get any worse in that respect.

[Giants1990]

I honestly do no understand why people would not buy off of ebay. If you receive a card and are not happy about it, you WILL be issued a refund. Starcity is overpriced, no doubt about it. Yes they are very fair with regards to card condition and excel in customer service and yes they are reputable. If this is worth a huge markup vs. Ebay pricing then go for it. I just bought and received a SP Moat for $198, not the $299 listed on Starcity. Moat is not a $300 card. If Starcity gets that for it, more power to them. Ebay is the place to go; everywhere else will cost you more almost every time.
Then you hear those players who want the Moats and Tabernacles and The Abyss just so they can play the game and they cry about the price and quote said price of a NM English copy. Buy the HP one. Buy the Italian version that goes for far less. There are plenty of cards available, reserved list or not. This is a trading/ collectible card game. It always will be. Thats why they come in booster packs and such. If you want a game with all the pieces in it then buy the game Kibler made or go play Risk.
It was mentioned earlier but you don't NEED any particular card to play this game. Build your deck, tune it as best you can, master it and place in some tournaments and use that to build your collection. Then buy/ trade for the cards you feel you NEED.

[LennonMarx]

Ebay is actually biased towards buyers, just check out their ebay buyer protection program.



Six months to a year to buy cards off ebay? Its clear you have no idea what your talking about, please redirect that hypothetical new player to someone who knows what they are talking about.

Man, what the fuck? Can we disagree without ad-homonym attacks? My time frame might be slightly too long, but so what? The time argument was simply that in order for eBay to be significantly cheaper, you need to wait for the good deals, right? If not, why not just buy from SCG/some other dealer. That requires some amount of time investment, especially for older/more obscure cards that don't get a ton of auctions posted. If you are going to be of the opinion that eBay is the only way to buy magic cards, what is the point of buying off of ebay if you are only saving a few bucks per auction, but now have to deal with multiple shipping costs, multiple sellers, and all the usual crap that comes with dealing with randoms on the internet.

[twndomn]

eBay takes no action on false advertisement. The so called near-mint item can just end up being piece of junk when you open the envelope, and eBay just put you on this endless back-and-forth e-mail exchange. What a waste of time.

You can file compliant on an eBay seller for copyright infringement, when the seller is selling stolen intellectual property, but eBay VeRO is a dead agency, doesn't care at all.

eBay's Paypal is a joke. It claims to be secure, but it can be easily hacked into, wait until your end of month surprise when you read your credit card statement, if you bother to check.

Buyer's Protection is total BS, you'll find out when you personally have to go through the red tape.

[sephorusFR]

As a returning player, I had to buy out a large number of staples. It costed far less than scg or tcg mid because of eBay and mkm. It took me 1.5 months to be able to play with rug esper and big shardless.

So yeah, your time and money scale are wrong. People paying full retail at scg are doing it megawrong.

[Lt. Quattro]

Man, what the fuck? Can we disagree without ad-homonym attacks? My time frame might be slightly too long, but so what? The time argument was simply that in order for eBay to be significantly cheaper, you need to wait for the good deals, right? If not, why not just buy from SCG/some other dealer. That requires some amount of time investment, especially for older/more obscure cards that don't get a ton of auctions posted. If you are going to be of the opinion that eBay is the only way to buy magic cards, what is the point of buying off of ebay if you are only saving a few bucks per auction, but now have to deal with multiple shipping costs, multiple sellers, and all the usual crap that comes with dealing with randoms on the internet.

I can't just nicely disagree with you because you don't know what your talking about. Lets use lion's eye diamond as an example since its pretty old, reserved list and popular. Slightly played on starcity is $90, cheapest store with 4 in stock on tcg player is lightly played $86 (.99 shipping) and a near mint set sold for $310.35 with shipping ($77.59 each) and I compared this to sp conditions just in case they were not near mint.

$360 vs $344.99 vs $310.35

You also earn 2% back on ebay from the ebay bucks program. Ebay bends over backwards to protect buyers, you won't be screwed unless your a seller. When bidding on an auction you enter the maximum your willing to pay then it will auto bid the minimum amount till you win or your outbid. I for example would set my maximum bid equal to whatever I was thinking about buying on tcg player with shipping included. You don't need to baby sit the auctions, you can set it then forget it.

[Giants1990]

eBay takes no action on false advertisement. The so called near-mint item can just end up being piece of junk when you open the envelope, and eBay just put you on this endless back-and-forth e-mail exchange. What a waste of time.

You can file compliant on an eBay seller for copyright infringement, when the seller is selling stolen intellectual property, but eBay VeRO is a dead agency, doesn't care at all.

eBay's Paypal is a joke. It claims to be secure, but it can be easily hacked into, wait until your end of month surprise when you read your credit card statement, if you bother to check.

Buyer's Protection is total BS, you'll find out when you personally have to go through the red tape.

This entire post is flat out wrong. I've been on both ends of disputes on ebay and the buyer will win 99% of the time. If you win an item, receive it and are not happy with it you will be refunded. Yes it may take a few days but if that NM card isnt NM you will get your money back. The seller just can't send you whatever they want. Paypal isn't secure? Are you opening false e-mails and filling out personal information? Paypal is no more likely to be hacked than your checking account with your bank.

[bruizar]

I've used ebay for years and I rarely have troubles. I wouldn't sell my cards on eBay because it's very biased towards buyers. The things is that obscure or rare cards are hardly sold on eBay except for high buy-it-now rates. For standard legal cards, eBay is perfect.

[LennonMarx]

I can't just nicely disagree with you because you don't know what your talking about. Lets use lion's eye diamond as an example since its pretty old, reserved list and popular. Slightly played on starcity is $90, cheapest store with 4 in stock on tcg player is lightly played $86 (.99 shipping) and a near mint set sold for $310.35 with shipping ($77.59 each) and I compared this to sp conditions just in case they were not near mint.

$360 vs $344.99 vs $310.35

You also earn 2% back on ebay from the ebay bucks program. Ebay bends over backwards to protect buyers, you won't be screwed unless your a seller. When bidding on an auction you enter the maximum your willing to pay then it will auto bid the minimum amount till you win or your outbid. I for example would set my maximum bid equal to whatever I was thinking about buying on tcg player with shipping included. You don't need to baby sit the auctions, you can set it then forget it.

Set it and forget it works, but it is hardly the best way to get deals, but I will acknowledge that if you aren't trying to snipe it takes a significantly lesser time investment. However, trying to snipe a something, it does often times take me, personally, a month or so to find an auction for what I want that I can pick up for a "steal." $30 is not worth that amount of time to me, especially if I need the cards next week. Occasionally BINs are reasonable as well, and when that happens, obviously, snap it up. That is all I meant, talking from personal experience having eBayed for ~10 years. I will however cede that my time frame was way too long if someone just wants to save a little cash or only buy a few cards and not a whole deck. That is all.

[xfxf]

eBay takes no action on false advertisement. The so called near-mint item can just end up being piece of junk when you open the envelope, and eBay just put you on this endless back-and-forth e-mail exchange. What a waste of time.

You can file compliant on an eBay seller for copyright infringement, when the seller is selling stolen intellectual property, but eBay VeRO is a dead agency, doesn't care at all.

eBay's Paypal is a joke. It claims to be secure, but it can be easily hacked into, wait until your end of month surprise when you read your credit card statement, if you bother to check.

Buyer's Protection is total BS, you'll find out when you personally have to go through the red tape.

Mostly false from what I know. Also about the hacking, their main site and the application is pretty secure. Hearing lesser praises about their some other subdomains from reliable sources though. Just don't go logging into dodgy iframes sending your credentials to someone else.

[JBlaze]

The reserved list is so FUCKING STUPID, but what really pisses me off is that there is ton's of legacy stuff that Wizards could reprint and they haven't. How fucking sick would it have been if instead of Modern Masters they called it Eternal Masters and reprinted Force of Will throw in Wasteland, Show and tell, a bunch of other stuff...now that's a set I want to buy! I mean really modern has been around for what... like a year and it get's Modern Masters. Legacy has a storied history and world wide community base and doesn't get shit.

[mini1337s]

The reserved list is so FUCKING STUPID, but what really pisses me off is that there is ton's of legacy stuff that Wizards could reprint and they haven't. How fucking sick would it have been if instead of Modern Masters they called it Eternal Masters and reprinted Force of Will throw in Wasteland, Show and tell, a bunch of other stuff...now that's a set I want to buy! I mean really modern has been around for what... like a year and it get's Modern Masters. Legacy has a storied history and world wide community base and doesn't get shit.
Legacy has a storied history as does Magic on a whole. Back in the day, when they did do mass reprints, it was an absolute shit show (Chronicles) and ruined the value of many cards. WotC would rather move an inch with Modern Masters than the foot that so many people advocate.
Buy your fair share of Modern Masters, tweet Maro, and give it some time and I'm confident we will see a Eternal Masters list.

[twndomn]

This entire post is flat out wrong. I've been on both ends of disputes on ebay and the buyer will win 99% of the time. If you win an item, receive it and are not happy with it you will be refunded. Yes it may take a few days but if that NM card isnt NM you will get your money back. The seller just can't send you whatever they want. Paypal isn't secure? Are you opening false e-mails and filling out personal information? Paypal is no more likely to be hacked than your checking account with your bank.

You have No idea. You are only aware of buying and selling. What about copy right infringement? Have you file case to VeRO on that? Please don't pretend you know something when you have not personally done it.

Have your Paypal account been compromised before? If you have not, why are you pretending you understand the lackluster process you have to gone through when it occurs? Did eBay pay you for Public Relation? Please don't pretend you're an eBay engineer who understand Web and e-commerce technology.

[dontbiteitholmes]

You have No idea. You are only aware of buying and selling. What about copy right infringement? Have you file case to VeRO on that? Please don't pretend you know something when you have not personally done it.

Have your Paypal account been compromised before? If you have not, why are you pretending you understand the lackluster process you have to gone through when it occurs? Did eBay pay you for Public Relation? Please don't pretend you're an eBay engineer who understand Web and e-commerce technology.

If your Paypal account was compromised I'd estimate there's a 99.99% chance it was not Ebay's fault.

Don't know what you are talking about with VeRO but if you get a fake card from a seller you are getting your money back, which is what's important.

[twndomn]

If your Paypal account was compromised I'd estimate there's a 99.99% chance it was not Ebay's fault.

Don't know what you are talking about with VeRO but if you get a fake card from a seller you are getting your money back, which is what's important.

Exactly, you don't know what I am talking about, and what I am talking about, is precisely about Paypal's parent company, which is eBay. Is this even news to you? eBay bought Paypal like N years ago, they still could not integrate their e-commerce securely and efficiently. By What Qualification do you have, to entitle you rights to give an 99% estimation based on nothing? Are you working for Paypal/eBay's Public Relation? Do you run your own e-Commerce Portal? Why should people trust your "expert" knowledge on the percentage? Show us your credentials, or just admit you're imagining things.

I have also used Amazon for a number of years, I have never discovered strange financial transactions, why am I not surprised?

If you don't even know what VeRO is, and/or you have not experienced the painful process of talking to them, why are you even commenting on something you don't understand? to show your inadequate knowledge?

[xfxf]

twndomn, I can understand you being upset about the incident you've gone through but can you also claim to have adequate knowledge and understanding on the subject to judge the security level of Paypal and its integration with Ebay? Most (almost all) of these "online banking" (yes, Paypal is online banking) compromises happen on the client side and not through a direct compromise of their back-end systems. Amazon accounts aren't as targeted as Paypal accounts by these MitB attacks, that is also a factor.

Still, I really understand that these lectures don't mean jack and it sucks to go through this.
/offtopic

Somewhere someone mentioned the "Meanwhile in Europe..." phenomenon but lately the European market seems to be more responsive to the SCG monopol and their price adjustments. On MKM people adjust their prices quickly, most of the cards listed under the inflated prices stay listed forever and whenever someone lists them at their real value (which is only slightly lower) people snatch it immediately. This makes it much harder to find money cards at their real value here as well.

[Arsenal]

Let's test this theory. I'll gone down the expensive cards and take literally the most recently completed listings off Ebay. So we'll pretend you just got on earlier today and had the winning bid on all the most recently closed auctions and compare that price to TCG player... For the sake of my sanity I'll round some values at $.50, on Ebay I'll add shipping to cost of card. I'll ignore anything foil/pimp or HP and MP when a LP is available within a couple bucks on both side to make it fair (in case the most recent on Ebay was pimped out or the cheapest on either side was damaged or in rather poor condition).

1x V Clique TCG LP $43, Ebay LP $36 Savings $7
3x Jace the Mind Sculptor LP, TCG Low $136.50, $137 $139, Ebay- $125 NM,$112 NM,$130 NM. Savings $45.50
3x Thoughtseize TCG all LP $50, $52, $53 Ebay- 2x VG/NM $82, 1x $43 VG Savings $28.50
1x Karakas TCG LP $83 Ebay skipped ital, foil, graded, 1st regular Karakas $67 NM Savings $16
3x Tundra TCG LP $96, $102, $103 Skip one idiot who BIN'd a Tundra for $125 and a whole lot of MP/HP for cheap, $86 NM, $90 LP, $92 NM Savings $33
3x Underground Sea LP,LP,NM TCG $136, $138, $145 Ebay $127, $135 (BIN), $122 Savings $35
1x Scrubland, $5ish who's counting
Polluted Delta wash
Flooded Strand wash
Force of Will wash

Savings from just chosing Ebay and having zero patience (all auctions ended within past 48 hours) you just saved ~ $170 and that's factoring in Ebay shipping but NOT TCG (which would definitely be real cash in this case since it's many different stores). Now there were a lot of auctions (especially the ones that were a wash) where if I dug a little deeper there were some savings there, but aside from throwing out that one BIN'd Tundra I didn't skip anything relevant. Now, the end of the work week I found was the worst time to buys cards on Ebay (people just have those checks burning holes in their pockets), but imagine if instead of picking just the random last relevant auctions on payday we shopped around for a week... The online stores still have their purpose. I mean most of the newer stuff isn't much of a difference between Ebay and the store and of course the smaller stuff that isn't worth Ebaying, but really I think that's a pretty good indication of how it goes (and if I did this on a Sunday you'd see a lot more contrast I would guess).

If people spent as much time looking for good deals on cards as they do complaining about prices there'd be a lot more Legacy players.

I took your theory to task and just purchased a playset of NM Revised Badlands from ebay. Through two different sellers (these two sellers were by far the cheapest NM Badlands available), I purchased a playset for $226.96 net. TCG playset would have been $245.96 net, making ebay give me a $19.00 net savings. However, that equals roughly 8.5% of my final cost and I find this is hardly a relevant savings imo. There wasn't a drastic different between the TCG NM average and the best deals I could find on ebay; difference was about $5 per card on a highly sought after, Reserve List protected dual land. Assuming you didn't lucksack into an "absolutely rediculous deal" that obviously isn't the norm, the chasm between SCG/TCG prices and ebay prices aren't as wide as you're making it seem.

[Koby]

I took your theory to task and just purchased a playset of NM Revised Badlands from ebay. Through two different sellers (these two sellers were by far the cheapest NM Badlands available), I purchased a playset for $226.96 net. TCG playset would have been $245.96 net, making ebay give me a $19.00 net savings. However, that equals roughly 8.5% of my final cost and I find this is hardly a relevant savings imo. There wasn't a drastic different between the TCG NM average and the best deals I could find on ebay; difference was about $5 per card on a highly sought after, Reserve List protected dual land. Assuming you didn't lucksack into an "absolutely rediculous deal" that obviously isn't the norm, the chasm between SCG/TCG prices and ebay prices aren't as wide as you're making it seem.

The price difference is substantial enough. The convenience factor, however, probably is not. eBay sellers aren't the most professional when it comes to shipping on time and with a standardized shipping/handling method. The difference reflects that somewhat. While I agree $20 on a playset of Duals isn't that much, it is still a savings of $20.

[Kuma]

I took your theory to task and just purchased a playset of NM Revised Badlands from ebay. Through two different sellers (these two sellers were by far the cheapest NM Badlands available), I purchased a playset for $226.96 net. TCG playset would have been $245.96 net, making ebay give me a $19.00 net savings. However, that equals roughly 8.5% of my final cost and I find this is hardly a relevant savings imo. There wasn't a drastic different between the TCG NM average and the best deals I could find on ebay; difference was about $5 per card on a highly sought after, Reserve List protected dual land. Assuming you didn't lucksack into an "absolutely rediculous deal" that obviously isn't the norm, the chasm between SCG/TCG prices and ebay prices aren't as wide as you're making it seem.

It's not like that $19 could get you a Deathrite Shaman and an Abrupt Decay to go with those Badlands. Since it isn't relevant to you, how about you send the money to me? PM me for my address.

I don't see how dontbiteitholmes is misrepresenting anything. All the savings he posted are similar in scope to what you saved on your Badlands. I don't understand people's problem with eBay. It's almost always less expensive than SCG/TCGPlayer and eBay's buyer protection all but guarantees you'll never have a problem. I've purchased over 150 times on eBay and I've only had two issues, both of which were resolved in my favor. After I filed the complaint, I had like $30 tied up for a week or two the one time, but that's a pretty good success rate.

[Arsenal]

The price difference is substantial enough. The convenience factor, however, probably is not. eBay sellers aren't the most professional when it comes to shipping on time and with a standardized shipping/handling method. The difference reflects that somewhat. While I agree $20 on a playset of Duals isn't that much, it is still a savings of $20.

I agree that $20 is $20 and I'm happy to have it in my pocket, but dontbiteitholmes argument was that ebay and TCG/SCG prices are so drastically different, that when an industry leader like SCG substantially raises their prices on something, that we shouldn't worry too much about it because we have ebay; my point was that ebay is not the magical Christmasland that he's making it out to be as sellers will tend to follow the industry leader's standard. It may not be mirrored down to the penny, but the gap between ebay and TCG/SCG isn't substantial enough to wholly ignore what SCG is doing with their prices on Eternal staples, which is what dontbiteitholmes was contending we should do.

[Esper3k]

Yeah in terms of being buyer friendly, eBay is ridiculously pro-buyer. I've never had any problems with disputes with dealers - they've always been ended in my favor. What's also nice is that oftentimes we just resolve it by giving me a discount, which saves me the pain in the butt of having to ship the card back.

I would say the reason to buy at SCG prices is if you really need something fast or if it's something that isn't really available on eBay. Even condition isn't guaranteed when buying from a store. I would say that you're actually more protected when buying through eBay than through a random TCG store.

[Koby]

I agree that $20 is $20 and I'm happy to have it in my pocket, but dontbiteitholmes argument was that ebay and TCG/SCG prices are so drastically different, that when an industry leader like SCG substantially raises their prices on something, that we shouldn't worry too much about it because we have ebay; my point was that ebay is not the magical Christmasland that he's making it out to be as sellers will tend to follow the industry leader's standard. It may not be mirrored down to the penny, but the gap between ebay and TCG/SCG isn't substantial enough to wholly ignore what SCG is doing with their prices on Eternal staples, which is what dontbiteitholmes was contending we should do.

The example you provided uses NM pricing, which tend to show smaller discrepancies than LP example dontbiteithomles provided. There is a larger margin of savings as the condition of the card degrades. This is due to collector/buyer perception as well as the grey zone when it comes to properly pricing a LP/MP card. Some merchants lop off $5 for LP, but what if the market value for these cards is close to $7 off?

Effectively, you still get better deals on an open marketplace rather than going to a store-front directly. The ability to price-shop on eBay/TCGplayer is not to be underestimated.

[Arsenal]

The example you provided uses NM pricing, which tend to show smaller discrepancies than LP example dontbiteithomles provided. There is a larger margin of savings as the condition of the card degrades. This is due to collector/buyer perception as well as the grey zone when it comes to properly pricing a LP/MP card. Some merchants lop off $5 for LP, but what if the market value for these cards is close to $7 off?

Effectively, you still get better deals on an open marketplace rather than going to a store-front directly. The ability to price-shop on eBay/TCGplayer is not to be underestimated.

I agree that the more the card's condition degrades, the larger the margin for potential savings, but as you pointed out, that margin widely varies and for the sake of the argument, I wanted to compare cards with the least amount of variance; NM pricing gives me that. I 100% agree that you get better deals on an open marketplace (like ebay) rather than going to a store-front (like SCG) directly, but that wasn't the point of contention.

This quote is what I took exception to:


Don't worry. As usual the price quoted by feline is just the price one online store (SCG) is "charging" for a NM card they are currently out of stock in. It's not the actual price for a Tabernacle (even a PSA graded 9.5 on Ebay went for slightly under $500). A normal NM English Tabernacle is worth about $350-$400 and Italian ones in slightly lesser condition occasionally creep down to $200ish range (but more realistically $250).

This is why I continually ridicule feline for quoting online prices as if, "WHAT THIS SHIT IS TOTALLY WORTH, OMG CAN YOU BELIEVE A RUG DELVER DECK IS WORTH $3000 BECAUSE TCG PLAYER SAYS SO!!!11!!!!11!1!1!!!"

1.) The ebay prices he quoted were from before SCG raised their price to $500. He misrepresented facts in order to have a stronger argument.

2.) I interpreted his "redicule for quoting online prices" as "it doesn't matter what TCG/SCG says, we have ebay". While ebay may have better prices (again, this is not in dispute), it isn't enough to ignore what SCG/TCG is doing with their pricing, which was my initial point when I posted:


Again, once the industry leader (SCG) raises the price ceiling, all other sellers (private and commercial) will eventually follow suit. It may not be overnight, but eventually, you will not be able to find a Tabernacle for the prices you're quoting due to all other sellers raising their prices to match SCG's.

Now, I probably shouldn't have used the word "match" in my post, but what I meant was that other sellers will begin to raise their prices to get closer to SCG's price. It may not be exactly the same, but it won't yield some insane 20-40% savings, which is the attitude I got from his posting, but a more modest 5-10% savings, which is what my Badlands purchase has shown. This would indicate that the ebay sellers have edged their selling price to more accurately reflect SCG/TCG's prices, otherwise, they would still be selling their duals at 2006 prices and I wouldn't care what SCG is doing (this is what dontbiteitholmes is contending we do) as I could look to ebay for $30 duals instead of $60 duals.

[Megadeus]

Buy a whole deck with 10% savings though. Buy a whole deck on eBay (might be a pain in the ass) and save a lot. If you save on a 2000 dollar deck thats 200 bucks. Sure if you are going out and buying a 2000 dollar legacy deck you probably arent hurting for money, but 200 bucks pays for your trip to go to a major event and play with your deck :p

[dontbiteitholmes]

I
1.) The ebay prices he quoted were from before SCG raised their price to $500. He misrepresented facts in order to have a stronger argument.

2.) I interpreted his "redicule for quoting online prices" as "it doesn't matter what TCG/SCG says, we have ebay". While ebay may have better prices (again, this is not in dispute), it isn't enough to ignore what SCG/TCG is doing with their pricing, which was my initial point when I posted:

Now, I probably shouldn't have used the word "match" in my post, but what I meant was that other sellers will begin to raise their prices to get closer to SCG's price. It may not be exactly the same, but it won't yield some insane 20-40% savings, which is the attitude I got from his posting, but a more modest 5-10% savings, which is what my Badlands purchase has shown. This would indicate that the ebay sellers have edged their selling price to more accurately reflect SCG/TCG's prices, otherwise, they would still be selling their duals at 2006 prices and I wouldn't care what SCG is doing (this is what dontbiteitholmes is contending we do) as I could look to ebay for $30 duals instead of $60 duals.

1: False, I followed the link in his posts which have since updated their pricing and used the current prices. The prices listed on the site were more than the prices listed when he basically took a snapshot some time ago.

2: If SCG can buy/sell Forces @ $100 perhaps the card is undervalued (I mean it's one card I think every serious Legacy player should own 4x of above all others), but I'm guessing it will be some time before real prices catch up with that model. I think the real issue is they could no longer afford to buy Forces at as low a $$ as they were previously offering because they weren't getting enough takers to keep a steady stock. Also they weren't selling much above the market rate.

My post above shows the following

V Clique TCG 16%
Jace the Mind Sculptor 13%
Thoughtseize 20%
Karakas 19%
Tundra 11%

By just comparing the MOST RECENT SALES on Ebay with TCG lowest prices (which are never NM anyways). So that means if you just happened to win the most recent auctions you save that much on those cards, that's not even shopping around or waiting for a better deal (as is sometimes required at least a little as shown by some of the other comparisons in same post). I think my method was fair though I should have skipped all the BINs and just done auctions to show more accurate results (which would have favored Ebay even more)

So I don't think it's unfair to say you can easily save 10-20% on Ebay compared to TCG LOW. If you are talking SCG I don't think 20-40% is a stretch for old high dollar rares though I'd be happy to do some comparisons if you want me to show you I'm right.

On your last point, that is retarded. Prices have always gone up over time even before SCG existed. I'm not saying it doesn't matter at all, but it's one of hundreds of factors that affects pricing. SCG is just following the market most of the time. I mean they can't just say Underground Seas are now a $200 card and have it be true. On Ebay the card still regularly sells in NM condition for $120-$130 (which ironically is well above the 20%-40% savings you seem to insist are ridiculous). You keep saying Ebay sellers are going to adjust their prices as if BIN is all that is on the website when it probably represents less than 1% of Magic sales on the site and most of the BINs listed over the accepted price don't sell.

So I challenge you to defend your views given this
http://www.ebay.com/csc/i.html?_sacat=0&_from=R40&_nkw=underground+sea+nm&LH_Complete=1&rt=nc
http://sales.starcitygames.com/search.php?substring=Underground+Sea&t_all=All&start_date=2010-01-29&end_date=2012-04-22&order_1=finish&limit=25&action=Show%2BDecks&card_qty%5B1%5D=1&auto=Y

[Arsenal]

Buy a whole deck with 10% savings though. Buy a whole deck on eBay (might be a pain in the ass) and save a lot. If you save on a 2000 dollar deck thats 200 bucks. Sure if you are going out and buying a 2000 dollar legacy deck you probably arent hurting for money, but 200 bucks pays for your trip to go to a major event and play with your deck :p

I agree, but that wasn't the point of contention between dontbiteitholmes and myself; we both agreed that ebay > SCG/TCG when it comes to pricing. Where we disagreed is that I think that when SCG raises their prices significantly, it creates a domino effect with other sellers, and it's effect is far reaching enough to even impact ebay selling prices. dontbiteitholmes disagreed with my assertion.

[Arsenal]

1: False, I followed the link in his posts which have since updated their pricing and used the current prices. The prices listed on the site were more than the prices listed when he basically took a snapshot some time ago.

2: If SCG can buy/sell Forces @ $100 perhaps the card is undervalued (I mean it's one card I think every serious Legacy player should own 4x of above all others), but I'm guessing it will be some time before real prices catch up with that model. I think the real issue is they could no longer afford to buy Forces at as low a $$ as they were previously offering because they weren't getting enough takers to keep a steady stock. Also they weren't selling much above the market rate.

My post above shows the following

V Clique TCG 16%
Jace the Mind Sculptor 13%
Thoughtseize 20%
Karakas 19%
Tundra 11%

By just comparing the MOST RECENT SALES on Ebay with TCG lowest prices (which are never NM anyways). So that means if you just happened to win the most recent auctions you save that much on those cards, that's not even shopping around or waiting for a better deal (as is sometimes required at least a little as shown by some of the other comparisons in same post). I think my method was fair though I should have skipped all the BINs and just done auctions to show more accurate results (which would have favored Ebay even more)

So I don't think it's unfair to say you can easily save 10-20% on Ebay compared to TCG LOW. If you are talking SCG I don't think 20-40% is a stretch for old high dollar rares though I'd be happy to do some comparisons if you want me to show you I'm right.

On your last point, that is retarded. Prices have always gone up over time even before SCG existed. I'm not saying it doesn't matter at all, but it's one of hundreds of factors that affects pricing. SCG is just following the market most of the time. I mean they can't just say Underground Seas are now a $200 card and have it be true. On Ebay the card still regularly sells in NM condition for $120-$130 (which ironically is well above the 20%-40% savings you seem to insist are ridiculous). You keep saying Ebay sellers are going to adjust their prices as if BIN is all that is on the website when it probably represents less than 1% of Magic sales on the site and most of the BINs listed over the accepted price don't sell.

So I challenge you to defend your views given this
http://www.ebay.com/csc/i.html?_sacat=0&_from=R40&_nkw=underground+sea+nm&LH_Complete=1&rt=nc
http://sales.starcitygames.com/search.php?substring=Underground+Sea&t_all=All&start_date=2010-01-29&end_date=2012-04-22&order_1=finish&limit=25&action=Show%2BDecks&card_qty%5B1%5D=1&auto=Y

First, why are you using TCG Low? Second, TCG average is $161 for Revised NM Underground Sea, that's about in line with what I see on ebay. I don't understand your point; you laugh at feline posting TCG pricing, but ebay pricing is similar?

[Koby]

First, why are you using TCG Low? Second, TCG average is $161 for Revised NM Underground Sea, that's about in line with what I see on ebay. I don't understand your point; you laugh at feline posting TCG pricing, but ebay pricing is similar?

This can't be a serious question. Given a choice to purchase Widget A at $10 and the same Widget A from another vendor at $8, which would you take, all other factors equal?

[Arsenal]

This can't be a serious question. Given a choice to purchase Widget A at $10 and the same Widget A from another vendor at $8, which would you take, all other factors equal?

Koby, obviously the $8 in your example, but we've been comparing averages against averages, or I thought we were. If Mid isn't the average to use and Low is, then I'll start using Low.

Also, I've been using NM only in my examples because as you've already pointed out, there too much variance in worse conditioned cards. Should I be using some other condition?

[Koby]

Koby, obviously the $8 in your example, but we've been comparing averages against averages, or I thought we were. If Mid isn't the average to use and Low is, then I'll start using Low.

Also, I've been using NM only in my examples because as you've already pointed out, there too much variance in worse conditioned cards. Should I be using some other condition?

Average are shit when you're looking on TCG player; at least without volume to back them. Either you hold the condition constant, and compare closed transactions on that price (or compared still active TCG listings at that condition), or you compare true averages and ignore condition.

TCG Low average includes varying (usually non-NM) conditions.
eBay average includes varying (usually non-NM) conditions.

That is why dontbiteitholmes makes use of the LP condition as a reference. There is no consistent method to compare NM prices form different markets without having exact knowledge of each transaciton.

[Megadeus]

I believe on TCG's newest version on their actual website they have a "Normal" price which I believe is an indicator of NM averages. Do not use things like magiccards.info though which uses all of the averages including Damaged prices. For example yesterday people on salvation were freaking out that Underground Seas on magiccards.info were 213 bucks mid, but that includes one seller who has theirs listed at 1500 dollars. The true TCG Average for NM and excluding the outliers is more like 161~

[xfxf]

I want to back Arsenal here because the discussion is turning into whether you can find cheaper deals on Ebay or not which is really not the point of discussion. You do get cheaper deals online. Depending on the condition of the card and your luck, this margin could be anywhere between 5% up to 20%.

But the point is, when SCG increases their prices market follows suit and they are basically setting the market norms. Which is old news really.

[Arsenal]

I want to back Arsenal here because the discussion is turning into whether you can find cheaper deals on Ebay or not which is really not the point of discussion. You do get cheaper deals online. Depending on the condition of the card and your luck, this margin could be anywhere between 5% up to 20%.

But the point is, when SCG increases their prices market follows suit and they are basically setting the market norms. Which is old news really.

Thank you. I thought I was being clear when I said stuff like this:


I agree that $20 is $20 and I'm happy to have it in my pocket, but dontbiteitholmes argument was that ebay and TCG/SCG prices are so drastically different, that when an industry leader like SCG substantially raises their prices on something, that we shouldn't worry too much about it because we have ebay; my point was that ebay is not the magical Christmasland that he's making it out to be as sellers will tend to follow the industry leader's standard. It may not be mirrored down to the penny, but the gap between ebay and TCG/SCG isn't substantial enough to wholly ignore what SCG is doing with their prices on Eternal staples, which is what dontbiteitholmes was contending we should do.

and this:


I 100% agree that you get better deals on an open marketplace (like ebay) rather than going to a store-front (like SCG) directly, but that wasn't the point of contention.

and this:


I agree, but that wasn't the point of contention between dontbiteitholmes and myself; we both agreed that ebay > SCG/TCG when it comes to pricing. Where we disagreed is that I think that when SCG raises their prices significantly, it creates a domino effect with other sellers, and it's effect is far reaching enough to even impact ebay selling prices. dontbiteitholmes disagreed with my assertion.

Essentially, I think SCG raising their prices on important, sought after staples will influence and impact the market; the market is following SCG. dontbiteitholmes disagrees and believes SCG is simply following the market. This is the point of contention in case people weren't clear.

[TsumiBand]

But the point is, when SCG increases their prices market follows suit and they are basically setting the market norms. Which is old news really.

Apparently there is no accountability here; Ben Bleiweiss is absolved due to the fact that other shop owners are evidently falling victim to the zero-sum fallacy (if I charge $5 for a shockland while SCG charges $10, according to zero-sum econ I am losing $5 every time I sell because I'm not charging as much as others can).

I don't know what action consumers are meant to take to correct this apparent lack of intelligence on behalf of the shopkeeps, as this stuff is all squarely Over My Head. I can't help but think, though, that given the right set of circumstances, most storeowners will just sell their product to other stores instead of consumers, until there are too few stores to effectively incite the right level of competition. wtf do I know, though.

[dontbiteitholmes]

First, why are you using TCG Low?

I'm using TCG Low because it's going to be the closest to Ebay prices and I wanted to be as fair as possible when comparing them. If I used TCG Mid or High people are going to say I'm not being fair but then Ebay would just win by a landslide.


Second, TCG average is $161 for Revised NM Underground Sea, that's about in line with what I see on ebay.

Okay so now $120-$130 bucks is "about in line with" $160. Yeah practically the same thing.


I don't understand your point; you laugh at feline posting TCG pricing, but ebay pricing is similar?

No it's not, see literally everything I've posted in this thread for proof.


Koby, obviously the $8 in your example, but we've been comparing averages against averages, or I thought we were. If Mid isn't the average to use and Low is, then I'll start using Low.

Also, I've been using NM only in my examples because as you've already pointed out, there too much variance in worse conditioned cards. Should I be using some other condition?

Jesus Christ man, we live in the same city, if you ever want to buy cards hit me up because I would LOVE to sell to you.

[luckme10]

For the record, channelfireball is now selling foil jace the mind sculptor for $1000. Meanwhile, SCG has them for sale for a meager $800. Looks like SCG isn't the only price setters in the market.

[lyracian]

For the record, channelfireball is now selling foil jace the mind sculptor for $1000. Meanwhile, SCG has them for sale for a meager $800. Looks like SCG isn't the only price setters in the market.
Quick start a new thread CFB raises price of Jace!

The problem is there is far to much Magic: The Stock Market being played and Wizards does nothing to offset this with reprints for Eternal players. I had really hoped that Commander/Planechase sets would have helped but so far they have not. I lent out six decks at this weeks Legacy tournament simply because there are so few other local players with old cards.

[Megadeus]

Here is a simple argument, yet one that makes sense that someone made on Salvation:

LandBoySteve: "Let me explain why, once SCG sets a card to a certain price that card will ultimately sell for that price everywhere else. This was explained to me by my friend who is a dealer who hates all this as much as we do.

I'll explain it with an example.

Let's say FoW goes from $60 to $100 at SCG like it just did. Let's say my friend wants to be a nice guy and still sell his for $60. At that price, it sells out quickly. He is now out of stock. He now has to go get new stock.

He usually offers 50% of what he charges for the FoW, which is $30. Who is going to take $30 for their FoW when SCG is now paying $60 - $70 for their FoW. So the only way my friend gets new stock is to offer players the same price as SCG, around $70. He now wants to make a profit. He certainly can't sell the FoW for $60 anymore. At best, you can get it from him for $90. He can't sell it for less than that because there are fees involved for each sale. He has his software fee for tracking inventory. He has the percentage fee to TCG for his listing there. He has to sell the card for enough to make a decent profit or it makes no sense to sell singles anymore.

Now do you understand why once SCG raises the price on a card everybody else has to follow or run out of inventory and not have anything left to sell? The only person who maybe won't get affected by this is the kid with one FoW in his collection who just wants to get rid of it. But guess what? If he puts it up for bid, SCG, if it sees that it's under the price they pay for it anyway, will be the one to win the bid for the card and end up with it anyway.

TL;DR - Once SCG sets the price of a card, that is the price the card will ultimately be"

[Barook]

For the record, channelfireball is now selling foil jace the mind sculptor for $1000. Meanwhile, SCG has them for sale for a meager $800. Looks like SCG isn't the only price setters in the market.

I would laugh really, really hard if JMS was reprinted in FTV: 20 - highly unlikely, but still.

[Mr Miagi]

I would laugh really, really hard if JMS was reprinted in FTV: 20 - highly unlikely, but still.

Rest assured value of the normal foil Jace 2.0 would not decrease.. True pimps stay loyal to the original foils (rarely Judge promos), or some other versions of nonfoil original version. FtV foils are generally looked upon as puke having diarrhea; jam in there some herpies and gonorrhea, just to stay on safe side of describing how unappealing those are.

[Esper3k]

Apparently there is no accountability here; Ben Bleiweiss is absolved due to the fact that other shop owners are evidently falling victim to the zero-sum fallacy (if I charge $5 for a shockland while SCG charges $10, according to zero-sum econ I am losing $5 every time I sell because I'm not charging as much as others can).

I don't know what action consumers are meant to take to correct this apparent lack of intelligence on behalf of the shopkeeps, as this stuff is all squarely Over My Head. I can't help but think, though, that given the right set of circumstances, most storeowners will just sell their product to other stores instead of consumers, until there are too few stores to effectively incite the right level of competition. wtf do I know, though.

You have the option that any other consumer has - don't buy from that store at that price.

I don't blame store owners for price hikes, nor do I see it as a lack of intelligence. In fact, I think it's silly of them NOT to raise prices if they have consumers who will buy at those increased prices. It's just bad business not to sell at the highest point your consumers will pay for.

[Kayradis]

Lulz for days

[menace13]

The largest buyer and retailer makes a move to buy out everyone's stock by out bidding current buy prices by double. Who is going to compete? And ultimately for how long?

[xfxf]

SCG's buylist prices aren't outbidding anyone. One example I noticed today is Revised Tundra. SCG is buying for $70, CardKingdom is buying for $95. I can sell EX ones for €75 (approx $100) online.

[nedleeds]

Rest assured value of the normal foil Jace 2.0 would not decrease.. True pimps stay loyal to the original foils (rarely Judge promos), or some other versions of nonfoil original version. FtV foils are generally looked upon as puke having diarrhea; jam in there some herpies and gonorrhea, just to stay on safe side of describing how unappealing those are.

AHHAHAHAHAHA ... I loled. Tell us how you feel about FNM foils?

[SpikeyMikey]

This can't be a serious question. Given a choice to purchase Widget A at $10 and the same Widget A from another vendor at $8, which would you take, all other factors equal?

But all other factors aren't equal. Dontbiteitholmes@ebay is not Starcitygames. I don't know when you're going to ship my Underground Sea. I don't know how thoroughly you've examined the card to make sure it's real. I don't know how you rate condition. I don't even know whether or not I'm going to win the auction I'm bidding on.

If I'm picking something up just because, sure, I can waste a few hours and wait a few weeks to get it. If I'm buying a card because I need it for the SCG Open that's 10 days away, I'm not fucking with eBay. Saving $9 on a Badlands isn't worth the risk of not being able to play in the tournament or having to shell out twice to pick one up on site when the eBay one arrives late.

[Koby]

But all other factors aren't equal. Dontbiteitholmes@ebay is not Starcitygames. I don't know when you're going to ship my Underground Sea. I don't know how thoroughly you've examined the card to make sure it's real. I don't know how you rate condition. I don't even know whether or not I'm going to win the auction I'm bidding on.

If I'm picking something up just because, sure, I can waste a few hours and wait a few weeks to get it. If I'm buying a card because I need it for the SCG Open that's 10 days away, I'm not fucking with eBay. Saving $9 on a Badlands isn't worth the risk of not being able to play in the tournament or having to shell out twice to pick one up on site when the eBay one arrives late.

My response was to Arsenal's confusion between TCG low and TCG mid pricing; not TCG mid vs eBay or eBay vs SCG. I guess there's no point putting any disclaimer on anything if people chose to ignore it anyway.

"All other factors equal" means just that. It rarely is in practice, but that's to be expected. The point was not to go over practical considerations of purchasing cards on the internet. The point is to drive home the message that an informed buyer will look to find the cheapest version of the card/widget in the same comparable category.

Obviously convenience is going to be a factor.
Obviously expediency is going to be a factor.
Obviously <bias> is going to be a factor.

[Arsenal]

My response was to Arsenal's confusion between TCG low and TCG mid pricing; not TCG mid vs eBay or eBay vs SCG. I guess there's no point putting any disclaimer on anything if people chose to ignore it anyway.

"All other factors equal" means just that. It rarely is in practice, but that's to be expected. The point was not to go over practical considerations of purchasing cards on the internet. The point is to drive home the message that an informed buyer will look to find the cheapest version of the card/widget in the same comparable category.

Obviously convenience is going to be a factor.
Obviously expediency is going to be a factor.
Obviously <bias> is going to be a factor.

Koby, my point wasn't that you can't find cheaper prices on ebay; you most certainly can and will. My point was that an industry leader (Walmart, SCG, Toyota, take your pick) raising/lowering their prices on product will influence/impact what other sellers do with their pricing on identical/similar products. This is where dontbiteitholmes and I disagree; he thinks that SCG is following the market whereas I believe that the market is following SCG.

[sdematt]

My response was to Arsenal's confusion between TCG low and TCG mid pricing; not TCG mid vs eBay or eBay vs SCG. I guess there's no point putting any disclaimer on anything if people chose to ignore it anyway.

"All other factors equal" means just that. It rarely is in practice, but that's to be expected. The point was not to go over practical considerations of purchasing cards on the internet. The point is to drive home the message that an informed buyer will look to find the cheapest version of the card/widget in the same comparable category.

Obviously convenience is going to be a factor.
Obviously expediency is going to be a factor.
Obviously <bias> is going to be a factor.

Agreed. If you buy from SCG, you're paying a bit more for their excellent customer service, condition, and other services. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with this, but you are paying for better service. I've NEVER had problems from SCG regarding scans, questions, etc.

My issue is that because they are the biggest retailer, individual sellers, such as a brick and mortar store, tend to follow these price guides that SCG sets. The problem I have with this is if my brick and mortar is charging SCG pricing (but not getting truly NM cards), but paying less than SCG's buylist prices, then what is my incentive to:

1) Buy any cards from you at all, unless I need them that minute.
2) Sell any cards to you at all, unless I need instant cash this minute (but at that point, I'd rather go to MOTL)

The problem I'm saying is that people who are charging SCG pricing aren't providing SCG quality of service, and thereby don't deserve, if that makes sense, to charge that premium. It's really frustrating when these other retailers attempt to justify to be in line with StarcityGames, yet don't actually justify it with the qualities SCG has.

-Matt

[Koby]

Koby, my point wasn't that you can't find cheaper prices on ebay; you most certainly can and will. My point was that an industry leader (Walmart, SCG, Toyota, take your pick) raising/lowering their prices on product will influence/impact what other sellers do with their pricing on identical/similar products. This is where dontbiteitholmes and I disagree; he thinks that SCG is following the market whereas I believe that the market is following SCG.

I don't disagree and have not addressed it because that much is obvious. There doesn't seem to me to be a solution to it either, so what's the point in being all up in arms against it. If you can get by and ignore the one/set of card(s) then that's fine. All other complaints are like raging that Apple stock is $450 today even when it was $200 3 years ago. "How dare they increase it by that much!!" is pissing into the wind.

[Arsenal]

I don't disagree and have not addressed it because that much is obvious.

Sadly, it isn't as obvious to some as you'd think.

[Koby]

Sadly, it isn't as obvious to some as you'd think.

There's no doubt the move is aggressive, to the point that it shifts the market equilibrium considering the volume that SCG deals with.

[joemauer]

What is most interesting about the increase in the price of Force of Will(and other legacy staples such as Jace) is how it is happening as Starcitygames is also cutting Legacy tourneys from their opens.

Don't believe that demand is that high for these cards and there is an obvious bubble here. It seems like a last effort cash grab. Starcitygames has increased the demand for Legacy cards through their opens, which in turn has helped grow this bubble. Now that Starcitygames is cutting back on Legacy tourneys logic tells us that demand will be lower for these cards in the future. Should cause prices to stagnate or even dip a little. Starcitygames is however going against this logic. Why? Because they can?

Personally, I have considered switching over to MTGO when Starcitygames announced less Legacy tourneys. Still on the fence about that switch.

One thing is for certain though: While prices of Legacy staples are like this I will never be able to nor would want to have 4-6 different Legacy playable decks. I am down to one.

[Lt. Quattro]

What is most interesting about the increase in the price of Force of Will(and other legacy staples such as Jace) is how it is happening as Starcitygames is also cutting Legacy tourneys from their opens.

Don't believe that demand is that high for these cards and there is an obvious bubble here. It seems like a last effort cash grab. Starcitygames has increased the demand for Legacy cards through their opens, which in turn has helped grow this bubble. Now that Starcitygames is cutting back on Legacy tourneys logic tells us that demand will be lower for these cards in the future. Should cause prices to stagnate or even dip a little. Starcitygames is however going against this logic. Why? Because they can?

Personally, I have considered switching over to MTGO when Starcitygames announced less Legacy tourneys. Still on the fence about that switch.

One thing is for certain though: While prices of Legacy staples are like this I will never be able to nor would want to have 4-6 different Legacy playable decks. I am down to one.

Jace, the mind sculptor's demand isn't tied solely to legacy, it has demand from legacy, commander, casual and collectors. Basically anyone who isn't a standard/modern only player wants this guy or wants him in their trade binder. Barring a reprint, its only going to go up.

[trevaftw]

What is most interesting about the increase in the price of Force of Will(and other legacy staples such as Jace) is how it is happening as Starcitygames is also cutting Legacy tourneys from their opens.

Don't believe that demand is that high for these cards and there is an obvious bubble here. It seems like a last effort cash grab. Starcitygames has increased the demand for Legacy cards through their opens, which in turn has helped grow this bubble. Now that Starcitygames is cutting back on Legacy tourneys logic tells us that demand will be lower for these cards in the future. Should cause prices to stagnate or even dip a little. Starcitygames is however going against this logic. Why? Because they can?

Personally, I have considered switching over to MTGO when Starcitygames announced less Legacy tourneys. Still on the fence about that switch.

If that were true, then they probably wouldn't have also been raising their buylist prices on said items also.

[Ellomdian]

If that were true, then they probably wouldn't have also been raising their buylist prices on said items also.

Don't bring your supply/demand economics in here! Haven't you been reading the last 5 pages of eBay and SCG bashing? Rational discussion of this subject checked out a while ago >.>

Now, if actual, credited sources started talking about how SCG was not buying specific cards at an event, that would be interesting. It's difficult to asses market direction based on ask price without knowing volume.

[menace13]

SCG's buylist prices aren't outbidding anyone. One example I noticed today is Revised Tundra. SCG is buying for $70, CardKingdom is buying for $95. I can sell EX ones for €75 (approx $100) online.
FoW, not Tundras.

Where was the SCG announcement on less Legacy opens?

[dontbiteitholmes]

First, why are you using TCG Low? Second, TCG average is $161 for Revised NM Underground Sea, that's about in line with what I see on ebay. I don't understand your point; you laugh at feline posting TCG pricing, but ebay pricing is similar?

Can someone please explain to me how anyone could say they see a $161 average for NM U Seas on Ebay from the link I posted when I can only find 2 Revised ones that went for over $150 (obviously not counting the miscut, unlimited, or alter) out of probably 100+ auctions? Am I missing something?

http://www.ebay.com/csc/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=nm+underground+sea&LH_Complete=1&LH_Sold=1&rt=nc

[Megadeus]

FoW, not Tundras.

Where was the SCG announcement on less Legacy opens?

This yeah in like 5 or 6 places they have dropped Legacy opens for double standard. They already did it in Orlando this year. Only in places that dont have a lot of legacy support though

[BenBleiweiss]

What is most interesting about the increase in the price of Force of Will(and other legacy staples such as Jace) is how it is happening as Starcitygames is also cutting Legacy tourneys from their opens.

Don't believe that demand is that high for these cards and there is an obvious bubble here. It seems like a last effort cash grab. Starcitygames has increased the demand for Legacy cards through their opens, which in turn has helped grow this bubble. Now that Starcitygames is cutting back on Legacy tourneys logic tells us that demand will be lower for these cards in the future. Should cause prices to stagnate or even dip a little. Starcitygames is however going against this logic. Why? Because they can?

Personally, I have considered switching over to MTGO when Starcitygames announced less Legacy tourneys. Still on the fence about that switch.

So let me make sure I have this correct:

1) We announce that there are 5-6 Open weekends that are going to be Standard/Standard (in cities that have had poor Legacy turnout) or Standard/Team Sealed (on release week). If we're running 42 opens this year, 34-36 of them are Standard/Legacy.

2) Months later, we sell out of FOrce of Will ($80) and Jace, TMS ($120) and can't restock them to meet demand. I raise our price to $100 and $150 (respectively) and raise our buy prices accordingly.

3) This is viewed as a "cash grab" on a "Legacy bubble"

The leap in logic between #2 and #3 is not one that I can really understand. Personally, I would look at "SCG is raising their prices on cards that keep selling out, and raising their buy prices so they can stock these cards", as a sign of the demand and health of the format.

- Ben

[dontbiteitholmes]

So let me make sure I have this correct:

1) We announce that there are 5-6 Open weekends that are going to be Standard/Standard (in cities that have had poor Legacy turnout) or Standard/Team Sealed (on release week). If we're running 42 opens this year, 34-36 of them are Standard/Legacy.

2) Months later, we sell out of FOrce of Will ($80) and Jace, TMS ($120) and can't restock them to meet demand. I raise our price to $100 and $150 (respectively) and raise our buy prices accordingly.

3) This is viewed as a "cash grab" on a "Legacy bubble"

The leap in logic between #2 and #3 is not one that I can really understand. Personally, I would look at "SCG is raising their prices on cards that keep selling out, and raising their buy prices so they can stock these cards", as a sign of the demand and health of the format.

- Ben

You forgot #4 - Get away with 9-11, the Boston Bombing, and hiding Iraq's WMD's because SCG is obviously the Illuminati and everyone knows you only supported Legacy in the first place to drive up the prices of dual lands. You bastards, it took you 10 years but you finally got the price of Force of Will up to $100, now it's time to open the vault and spill out the 1000000 FoW's scg secretly bought for $5 a piece in 1999 and reap the rewards. Oh and of course you also conspire to keep WotC from reprinting Force of Will, in case you haven't heard that one, but you probably have, because you were at that secret meeting where Hasbro pulled in all the major singles stores and asked them what not to reprint right? Oh or maybe you were at the other meeting, you know the one where WotC told you about the banned list changes 3 months ahead of time so you'd have time to buy out all the copies and set the market price. I heard SCG is run by the mob and they all go out into the woods after dark and summon the devil.

[Megadeus]

Interesting theories there if I do say so myself. If you are reading this Ben, just curious, were USeas really in that high of demand that they have gone up 50 dollars over the past few months? Legacy is definitely growing, but to that extent? And Unlimited USeas at this point are only 50 bucks more...

[BenBleiweiss]

Interesting theories there if I do say so myself. If you are reading this Ben, just curious, were USeas really in that high of demand that they have gone up 50 dollars over the past few months? Legacy is definitely growing, but to that extent? And Unlimited USeas at this point are only 50 bucks more...

The rule of thumb on cards that are in both UL and 3rd:
1) People who want to build NM complete sets will pay a premium for UL NM cards.
2) People who want the cards just to play with want the cheaper version available; with both being White Bordered, 3rd outsells Unlimited by a large margin because of price point.


You did pique my curiosity; I took a look at our sales figures on Revised Dual Lands from Jan 1 2012 - May 1 2012, and then compared it to Jan 1 2013 - May 1 2013.

Sales in 2013 (Compared to 2012)
Badlands: +59%
Bayou: +7%
Plateau: -9%
Savannah: -40%
Scrubland: -4%
Taiga: -21%
Tropical Island: -21%
Tundra: -45%
Underground Sea: +28%
Volcanic Island: -3%
Overall Volume: -9%

I'll note that we are sold out or virtually out of:
Badlands
Bayou
Scrubland
Underground Sea

Average selling price (compiled for NM/Sp/MP) - 2012 first, 2013 second
Badlands: $42.91 versus $64.99 (+22.08)
Bayou: $58.57 versus $95.82 (+37.25)
Plateau: $44.93 versus $49.99 (+$5.06)
Savannah: $67.16 versus $94.66 (+$27.50)
Scrubland: $55.00 versus $71.78 (+$16.78)
Taiga: $59.26 versus $77.13 (+$17.87)
Tropical Island: $87.30 versus $119.99 ($32.69)
Underground Sea: $128.22 versus $163.99 (+$35.77)
Volcanic Island: $83.31 versus $139.16 (+$55.85)

Or by percentage of avg. selling price:
1) Plateau: +1.11%
2) Underground Sea: +1.27% (1.278953% to be exact)
3) Tundra: +1.27% (1.278986% to be exact)
4) Taiga: +1.301%
5) Scrubland: +1.305%
6) Tropical Island: +1.37%
7) Savannah: +1.40%
8) Badlands: +1.51%
9) Bayou: +1.63%
10) Volcanic Island: +1.67%

Now we have NM Underground Sea at $200, but the majority we're getting in will be MP, followed by SP, with maybe 10% of our total sales coming from NM condition Undergrounds. I'd feel safe saying the average selling price will probably be around $170 on Underground Seas, once the year ends. That still makes Underground Sea one of the lowest % gainers of all of the dual lands, against where it was a year ago.

- Ben

[joemauer]

So let me make sure I have this correct:

1) We announce that there are 5-6 Open weekends that are going to be Standard/Standard (in cities that have had poor Legacy turnout) or Standard/Team Sealed (on release week). If we're running 42 opens this year, 34-36 of them are Standard/Legacy.

2) Months later, we sell out of FOrce of Will ($80) and Jace, TMS ($120) and can't restock them to meet demand. I raise our price to $100 and $150 (respectively) and raise our buy prices accordingly.

3) This is viewed as a "cash grab" on a "Legacy bubble"

The leap in logic between #2 and #3 is not one that I can really understand. Personally, I would look at "SCG is raising their prices on cards that keep selling out, and raising their buy prices so they can stock these cards", as a sign of the demand and health of the format.

- Ben

The gigantic jump in demand for Force of Will and Jace that you guys are experiencing appears to be higher than the rest of the places you can buy cards.

Do you think there will be more Legacy tournaments next year? If not, then it is possible that Legacy has reached it's peak. As tournaments decline and the prices of Legacy staples continue to rise, it seems more and more likely that Legacy is indeed headed the way of Vintage.

Just because people are buying the cards at whatever price you need to make them does not mean that there is not a bubble.

Look I am not blaming Starcitygames or you personally Ben for keeping your business profitable. I appreciate the fact that y'all created Legacy opens to begin with. If not for these opens there would be only a yearly Grand Prix worth driving to in order to enjoy the format.

For the longest time Legacy was a more casual format. That of course has changed.

Now players such as myself have to ask themselves if hanging on to a paper deck(that is worth the price of a big screen T.V./gun/used car/Vacation to anywhere/jet ski/library full of books/or whatever else) is worth holding on to when I play more on Cockatrice than with the real cards. A logical move is to jump over to MTGO where I can win tix to draft or play other formats.

This is just the beginning of the end for Legacy.

[Koby]

This is just the beginning of the end for Legacy.

Luckily, you can always play Standard at FNM if you're done with Legacy. Your enjoyment level may vary.

Chill out, for fuck's sake!

[bruizar]

This thread needed to die about 10 pages ago. Seriously, magic cards appreciating in value has been going on since forever. If you can't afford it anymore, don't play it or get a better job.

[majikal]

This thread needed to die about 10 pages ago. Seriously, magic cards appreciating in value has been going on since forever. If you can't afford it anymore, don't play it or get a better job.
It isn't really about that. I think most of us here already have the cards we need to play.

The problems start when the average cost of a deck can buy a car, or put a down payment on a house, or what have you, and then people start selling their stuff. THEN we have to worry about new people not being interested in dropping the dough to pick up the format, and we have more players leaving than entering. And then, you know. No more (easily accessible) tournaments.

That's what he means by "the beginning of the end".

And don't tell me prices will come down and everyone can afford shit again, because that won't ever happen. Vintage is a testament to absurdity of price-memory.

[bruizar]

As I said in another thread, the problem lies with the high standard prizes, not with eternal prices. Eternal prices adapt to standard prices. You aren't going to trade away your time-tested eternal staples for a standard legal mythic rare. People have been nurturing those cards to keep them in great condition since 1994. You can't expect people to value them as much as the next Sphinx's Revelation, Liliana of the Veil or Deathrite Shaman that you can just luck-sack into on a prerelease. Dual lands have been good since the beginning of magic, but how long will the next beatstick last until it is outmoded by something better? A card's value is not just based on its current tournament strength, but on its historic performance.

Some examples (order is not completely accurate):

Tinker Powercreep
Sundering Titan -> Darksteel Colossus -> Inkwell Leviathan -> Sphinx of the Steel Wind -> Blightsteel Colossus

Natural Order Powercreep
Progenitus -> Regal Force -> Craterhoof Behemoth

Sneak/Show and Reanimator Powercreep
Woodfall Primus -> Blazing Archon -> Terastodon -> Iona, Shield of Emeria -> Angel of Despair -> Emrakul, the Aeons Torn -> Elesh-Norn, Grand Cenobite -> Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur -> Griselbrand

Oath of Druids Powercreep
Akroma, Angel of Wrath, Spirit of the Night, Razia, Boros Angel, Serra Avatar, Iona Shield of Emeria, Tidespout Tyrant, Emrakul, the Aons Torn, Blightsteel Colossus, Terastodon, Sun Titan, Sphinx of the Steel Wind, Griselbrand

Manadork Powercreep
Birds of Paradise / Llanowar Elves -> Noble Hierarch -> Deathrite Shaman

Mighty one-drop powercreep
Kird Ape, Savannah Lions, Ghazban Ogre, Nimble Mongoose, Steppe Lynx, Wild Nacatl, Goblin Guide, Delver of Secrets

As you can see, fatties / creatures are bad investments because they will get power creeped. Cards that see tournament play over many years should never ever be worth less than new cards.

Ever since Thoughtseize, and later Tarmogoyf and Jace the Mindsculptor happened, the price barrier for standard staples was broken. Before that, no standard legal card was ever more than 20 euros. That means that any card that is old and has seen years of tournament play must be worth more.

[kiblast]

Anyway, to me it seems pretty obvious that legacy is cardboard crack fro grown ups. During the last year when I finally had a job with a decent salary I bought lots of staples that I couldn't afford if I was unemployed. I don't think ''this is the end of legacy''. I just think this is the start of a more adult approach to the hobby. Meanwhile, until you are broke, you can have fun drafting and playing standard.

Btw I have a friend who smokes crack cocaine regularly once-twice a week and I waste more money for cards than he does for his drug, so the metaphor doesn't really work, I made the math with him.

[Hopo]

Anyway, to me it seems pretty obvious that legacy is cardboard crack fro grown ups. During the last year when I finally had a job with a decent salary I bought lots of staples that I couldn't afford if I was unemployed. I don't think ''this is the end of legacy''. I just think this is the start of a more adult approach to the hobby. Meanwhile, until you are broke, you can have fun drafting and playing standard.

True. All this "legacy is dead" crap is just nonsense.

It's not like the prices of some particular vendor were THE indicator of the state of a rather popular format. There is a lot of US-centrism in this thread. By just looking the feature matches from SCG opens you could as well claim that legacy is dead because only skilless morons play it - a setup that is not sustainable - but that would be just making too hasty conclusions.

[menace13]

As I said in another thread, the problem lies with the high standard prizes, not with eternal prices. Eternal prices adapt to standard prices.

Ever since Thoughtseize, and later Tarmogoyf and Jace the Mindsculptor happened, the price barrier for standard staples was broken. Before that, no standard legal card was ever more than 20 euros. That means that any card that is old and has seen years of tournament play must be worth more.

Bruiz you're drunk, go home.

:rolleyes: No, Eternal prices do not adapt to Std prices. They rise uncorrelated to Std as the dynamics are vastly different. The limiting factor is eternal copies are restricted to a much smaller number than in print cards being cracked in drafts, sealed, and FNMs.

Power 9 was hundreds before Goyf printing. By the way Goyf was before Seize, and the real Jace.

Most Std prices today are $25-30 US, same as the range was in 2006- pre Goyf print. Yet, all of the eternal cards have increased and continue to do so despite Std cards having the same ceiling they have had for the past half a decade.

Only Std legal cards worth more than that are so far and few between, we can name, like what 2 or 3, ever?


I am not sure that any OLD card that has seen tourny play MUST be worth more than a new card that will: be sought after by a much larger number of buyers/players than the old card. The limited number of copies, the demand for it, and price memory all have WAY more to do with eternal prices than 3 cards in the history of type 2 hitting over 40 US do.


I just think this is the start of a more adult approach to the hobby.

Btw I have a friend who smokes crack cocaine regularly once-twice a week and I waste more money for cards than he does for his drug, so the metaphor doesn't really work, I made the math with him.

Adult approach? You mean that is what happened to Vintage, right? All the kids that wanted to play got reduced to five thousand people worldwide. Seems very adult.........:wink:

Raising prices does not mean more of an adult approach.


Legacy will go the way of Vintage inevitably. Not today, maybe not in a year. But it will.

[joven]

I haven't read the whole thread and I don't really know the scene in the USA, but it seems to me you guys need to build an independent alternative internet platform for card trading instead on depending on SCG, something sort of "players for players".
Look what some guys built with www.magickartenmarkt.de or www.magiccardmarket.eu in Germany/Europe. Conditions and commission are rather fair. It's a great platform and I bet they still make a lot of money from it.

[PirateKing]

I haven't read the whole thread and I don't really know the scene in the USA, but it seems to me you guys need to build an independent alternative internet platform for card trading instead on depending on SCG, something sort of "players for players".
Look what some guys built with www.magickartenmarkt.de or www.magiccardmarket.eu in Germany/Europe. Conditions and commission are rather fair. It's a great platform and I bet they still make a lot of money from it.

There is eBay and Cardshark here, and as people have stated, there is a precedent to not trade away cards for less than what you could have made selling to SCG. Anybody who does get's their stuff bought out immediately and then they have no cards. Yes you can find cards cheaper than SCG everywhere, but you get a 10% savings from the market leader, so if the market leader brings prices up from 100 to 200, you still save 10%, but are spending more money regardless.

[joven]

Isn't it just a matter of time till WotC reprints FoW, since it is not on the reserve list and it isn't a really broken card by itself?
Jace the Mind Sculptor is another thing, I'd bet it will never see reprint (aside from Judge Reward) since it is one of the most broken cards and that as a planeswalker with four abilities!

[joven]

There is eBay and Cardshark here, and as people have stated, there is a precedent to not trade away cards for less than what you could have made selling to SCG. Anybody who does get's their stuff bought out immediately and then they have no cards. Yes you can find cards cheaper than SCG everywhere, but you get a 10% savings from the market leader, so if the market leader brings prices up from 100 to 200, you still save 10%, but are spending more money regardless.

How come that SCG can buy cards from people at high prices? Who is dumb enough to buy those cards back from SCG at even higher prices?? SCG has to make money, doesn't it? Or are they just sitting on the cards and wait for them to raise in value, what some magic cards actually do?
I don't understand the thing with the 10% savings from the market leader. Why is that and why does anybody care if you get cards at lower prices elsewhere?

[PirateKing]

How come that SCG can buy cards from people at high prices? Who is dumb enough to buy those cards back from SCG at even higher prices?? SCG has to make money, doesn't it? Or are they just sitting on the cards and wait for them to raise in value, what some magic cards actually do?
I don't understand the thing with the 10% savings from the market leader. Why is that and why does anybody care if you get cards at lower prices elsewhere?

Oh I don't know, I buy from CoolStuffInc myself because of free shipping and 15% off singles. Other people have stated customer service and proper valuing of wear, so I guess to some that is worth a $100 FoW. But they are the largest for some reason so I have to imagine it's because of something they're doing right.

[clavio]

Isn't it just a matter of time till WotC reprints FoW, since it is not on the reserve list and it isn't a really broken card by itself?

I think there's a solid chance that it'll be in ftv 20.

[Julian23]

Do we have a target release date for that one yet?

[dunk]

Do we have a target release date for that one yet?

Release Date: August 23, 2013

[dontbiteitholmes]

Btw I have a friend who smokes crack cocaine regularly once-twice a week and I waste more money for cards than he does for his drug, so the metaphor doesn't really work, I made the math with him.
First off LOL.
Second MTG is called cardboard crack because it is addictive not because it is expensive.
Third crack is cheap as shit that's why it's only a problem in poor areas, rich people do coke.

Your friend sounds like a cool dude though *eyeroll.gif*