Theoretical High Stakes Legacy Tournament

[PirateKing]

What do you guys suppose the draw would be, and conversely, the difficulty would be, in hosting an open Legacy tournament with a high buy-in put towards a cash prize?

By high stakes lets say for example the buy-in is $500 hoping to get 100 people, using the $50,000 purse to divide to the top 8.
-Do you think only a dozen people would show up?
-Would Wizards show disapproval to such a costly entry?

What would be the realistic limits to setting a high buy-in while still drawing enough participants that you could boast massive purse amounts?

World Series of Poker's main event is a $10,000 buy-in netting ~6,000 participants or so, with the first place prize being 8-9 million dollars. And while by no means do I realistically expect a 1:1 implementation, I'm curious to know what the draw of offering even a $1,000,000 first place prize in an open tournament would be, knowing that the prize would generated by a larger than typical buy-in.

So let's start small, what would be the largest buy-in you would be willing to pay, and what would have to be the cash prize to motivate you?

[dontbiteitholmes]

-Do you think only a dozen people would show up?
If that, most likely the perception would be that no one is going to show so it's a waste of time going.



-Would Wizards show disapproval to such a costly entry?
Who gives a fuck?



What would be the realistic limits to setting a high buy-in while still drawing enough participants that you could boast massive purse amounts?

World Series of Poker's main event is a $10,000 buy-in netting ~6,000 participants or so, with the first place prize being 8-9 million dollars. And while by no means do I realistically expect a 1:1 implementation, I'm curious to know what the draw of offering even a $1,000,000 first place prize in an open tournament would be, knowing that the prize would generated by a larger than typical buy-in.

So let's start small, what would be the largest buy-in you would be willing to pay, and what would have to be the cash prize to motivate you?

You would be going about it all wrong. The correct way to do something like this is have a number of "feeder" events that qualify you for the main event. See SCG Invitational as an example.

[Kayradis]

If that, most likely the perception would be that no one is going to show so it's a waste of time going.


Who gives a fuck?



You would be going about it all wrong. The correct way to do something like this is have a number of "feeder" events that qualify you for the main event. See SCG Invitational as an example.
+1

[Dan Turner]

WHY? For $500 I would just rather buy a few staples and grind away I play magic for the game not the prizes. If you want that go and play poker.

I have a hard time with even $20 tournaments when the prize is power or duals. I just can not justifie that kind of expense unless there is a high chance of me coming out ahead.


IE: you need a realistic ROI

[Ayotte]

WHY? For $500 I would just rather buy a few staples and grind away I play magic for the game not the prizes. If you want that go and play poker.

I have a hard time with even $20 tournaments when the prize is power or duals. I just can not justifie that kind of expense unless there is a high chance of me coming out ahead.


IE: you need a realistic ROI

If there are 100 players putting in $500 each, and the prize payouts equal just $40,000, that's a much higher mean return for one's investment than any SCG open.

I'm the least risk-averse person I know, so the above scenario sounds great to me. OP's proposed system of using all the entry money as prizes is even better.

[H]

Granted this is for Vintage, but 63 people preregistered for this at $100 buy in: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=45072.0

So, yes, I do think it is plausible...just not at $500, at least.

[alphastryk]

Granted this is for Vintage, but 63 people preregistered for this at $100 buy in: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=45072.0

So, yes, I do think it is plausible...just not at $500, at least.

Yeah, $100 doesn't seem like an unreasonable number for decent prizes.

[troopatroop]

WHY? For $500 I would just rather buy a few staples and grind away I play magic for the game not the prizes. If you want that go and play poker.

I have a hard time with even $20 tournaments when the prize is power or duals. I just can not justifie that kind of expense unless there is a high chance of me coming out ahead.


IE: you need a realistic ROI

Yeah, but you openly admit you're awful at magic. The problem is not the theory, it's that this guy represents a large portion of magic players, who are just the nerdy untalented type. That 60% would never pay even $40 to buy into a tournament, that is unless it's sealed or something. Basically, I hate the argument that this guy presents, because it's a scrubs mentality, but that actually represents a huge chunk of magic players.... Players who obviously have a chance, because it's magic and they're not retarded, but are clearly edged out in playskill by the higher thinkers.

[JamieW89]

I would prefer GP size tournaments to be €50-200 entry rather than less (as long as a very large majority of it is prize support). You're paying a fair amount for travel and such anyways, it would greatly improve the EV of such events imo.

Although I can understand that most less serious players wouldn't be too supportive.

[Koby]

I would be interested in high-stakes tournament, but not at $500.
I think the sweet spot would be $100.

[nedleeds]

Cheating would be fucking rampant @ $500.00 ... as if it isn't now at early rounds of GPs.

Also, compare this payout with Bazaar of Moxen ... 50k on 500 is awful compared with the following on 35 ($50)

Format : Legacy
Entry fee : 35€

Winner : Power 9 BB
Finalist : 40 Dual Lands WB
3rd-4th : 4 Underground Sea BB
5th-6th : 4 Tropical Island BB
7th-8th : 4 Tundra BB
9th : 1 Underground Sea BB
10th : 1 Tropical Island BB
11th : 1 Tundra BB
12th : 1 Volcanic Island BB
13th : 1 Savannah BB
14th : 1 Taiga BB
15th : 1 Bayou BB
16th : 1 Scrubland BB
17th-20th : 1 Underground Sea WB
21th-24th : 1 Tropical Island WB
25th-28th : 1 Tundra WB
29th-32th : 1 Volcanic Island WB
33th-64th : 1 Non-blue Dual Land WB

[cogitoergosum]

I didn't do the math, but it is crazy how much BoM gives out in terms of entry fees. Also, I would totally pay $100 for a big tournament.

[nedleeds]

BoM actually isn't much more than the $40 US SCG Legacy opens which is really fucking crazy ...

[walker]

Agree about cheating at $500 buy in. At that price I would probably not play anyway. For $100 buy in I would love to play if the event looks to be properly run (maybe extra judges on staff to keep things running smoothly). I think we could muster a solid crowd if run in socal, I think we should put our heads together and organize something.

[oarsman]

In a given region, how many players are comfortable enough in a format to shell out something like $100? I have no idea, but it can't be more than 20 or 30 even near big cities.

If it was 100% payout, I would gladly play for more than the $40 of an SCG event. But I would only do this in Legacy, not Standard, Modern, or Limited. Other players would have a different choice of format, which is another reason why drawing a large number is not realistic.

[Koby]

Taking the Bazaar of Moxen model and applying it to the USA might get us closer to that goal. It would have to be hosted in a large, cheap (price, not quality) venue that is relatively central to most Magic markets. I suspect this might still be in the Midwest due to the density of Northeastern, Mid-Atlantic, and Mid-western Magic communities.

[PirateKing]

Another reason that would at least interest me is that prize support wouldn't come in the form of store credit or packs or some internal point system to maybe be eligible for prizes later. The prize is cash, the cash of the people you beat to get it. And I get why local stores offer store credit, because there is a cost to keeping the lights on, and that's fine. But I don't need cards, an especially not the $50 i won for 5 hours of work (Quin is work).

If it was some annual tournament that was a big deal in NYC that could muster a serious cash purse, I felt like that would be an interest to me. I just wondered if other people felt the same way.

And just as fair, if there were smaller cash games, but like serious cash games, $50 each, winner walks away with a grand, that would also be cool.

[sdematt]

The best part about paying $40 for the new StarCityGames prize structure is you now don't get pens or notepads included in that cost anymore, you need to pay a dollar. Instead, I get a bunch of super useful tokens of derdlers I couldn't give two shits about. Are you fucking kidding me?

I'd buy-in at $100 for a sweet prize payout.

-Matt

[Megadeus]

If there were a BoM style thing around in the states I would be totally down to play in it. I think a Place such as NYC somewhere would be perfect.


Or like someone else said, something that has a bunch of feeder events, such as an SCG Invi, but for legacy only would be sweet.

[lochlan]

I would pay as much as $100 for a tournament (maybe up to $200 in the right location and with a known TO), but it would need to have some kind of minimum guaranteed prizes.

I agree with Koby that a BoM-style payout structure is a superior model, but I have my doubts that the geography of the US could support such a tournament. Although I would love to see a similar event in the US, BoM makes a lot more sense in Europe.

[Megadeus]

Considering how terrible I am at Magic I would be uncomfortable spending more than 100 bucks for a tourney, but as somebody said, this is from a scrub standpoint. I do like having fun though and nothing is more fun than large legacy tourneys to me!

[GradStudentGuy]

I think a large well run $100 entry few tournament would be great for the format.

[kwis]

I think dropping the entry cost to 100-150 is far more likely to attract the necessary turnout while still producing an acceptable prize pool. People are willing to spend that kind of money taking a chance on a box so they are probably also willing to spend it on a chance at a large cash prize. You already put down $40 for a normal tournament so the delta cost isn't as huge.

[ESG]

$50-100 would be my comfort range, preferably with a deep payout like SCG's Open model.

[phazonmutant]

Magic is actually pretty unusual in how deeply it pays out. The WSOP I belive pays out only to top 40 despite being big and having an expensive buy-in. It's just a matter of shaping perceptions. People are used to huge variance swings in Poker, but Magic less so.

[PirateKing]

I just feel that Legacy needs headlines like "So-and-so wins 2.4 million dollars at Legacy tournament in Las Vegas".
Considering how much money these decks cost, giving the oppertunity to earn multiples of that back through quality play would be a welcome addition.
Playing draft for the chance to win $100 is very nice, but that same $100 prize just doesn't feel as big for decks of this caliber.
But in lieu of any large sponsership to offer more money then the sum of entry fees, it would have to be all player sponsered, hence the high buy-in.
But after just spending $200 for a playset of Forces, a $100 buy-in doesn't sound out of the realm of possible. Just wanted to know how others felt.

[Einherjer]

Wow this sounds like alot of fun! Not like the GPs... 1300 people, you fight for top64 and get what? 200 dollar. TWOHUNDRED?! That's just nothing.
I'd greatly appreciate high-stake tournaments IN ADDITION to normal ones though.

Greetings

[Dan Turner]

For the guy who said I am not very good out of the 6 legacy Tournaments I played I topped 8 every single one. Kansas City, Oklahoma City, Topeka, Dallas, Little Rock and Sand Diego. I don't get to play in high level events much with 2 kids a wife and a full time job.


Your large problem is the same reason Wizards stopped doing cash payouts, in most areas gambling is against the law and cash payouts are considered gambling. In the US it would have to be in Vegas our in one of the few other places that allow that level of cash payouts. I do know some LGS do do cash payouts but its small time and doesn't attract attention, something that big would attract a lot of attention and like someone said cheating would run rampant with that much on the line. I have seen players cheat when the prize payout was a sealed box.

[Richard Cheese]

I would only go to a $100+ buy-in tourney if the venue was extremely nice, there was a dress code, and cocktails were available. None of this generic shitty hotel conference room nonsense.

Maybe I'm on to something here...private tables, no spectators milling around, and a noise policy. When your match is finished you shake hands, congratulate each other, and step out to the bar for conversation.

[Phelix]

it costs my roughly 800 dollars to attend a european GP (and i live here) anyway, so upping the buyin to say 250$ would be just fine with me. kewlness of finishing ITM also increases, as now, winning 200 dollars for top 64 feels like peeing my pants to stay warm.

[Koby]

I would only go to a $100+ buy-in tourney if the venue was extremely nice, there was a dress code, and cocktails were available. None of this generic shitty hotel conference room nonsense.

Maybe I'm on to something here...private tables, no spectators milling around, and a noise policy. When your match is finished you shake hands, congratulate each other, and step out to the bar for conversation.

+1 would attend. Dress/hygiene code strictly enforced.
/aside/ BYOB service for whiskeys? /aside

[Viridia]

I would only go to a $100+ buy-in tourney if the venue was extremely nice, there was a dress code, and cocktails were available. None of this generic shitty hotel conference room nonsense.

Maybe I'm on to something here...private tables, no spectators milling around, and a noise policy. When your match is finished you shake hands, congratulate each other, and step out to the bar for conversation.


I'd definately join a tournament like that. Finally no more stressing about disgusting and loud people aswel as having an extra reason to get the fancy clothes out of the closets :)

[Chikenbok]

Step 1 - Rent out floor of swanky building in Manhattan (so I can play in it)
Step 2-5 - Hookers, Alcohol, Bouncers, Nice Tables
Step 6 - No Bullshit
Step 7 - Play Magic with your Swag out.

Profit is somewhere down the line.

Please come clean shaved.

[Scordata]

Step 7 is a deal breaker for me.

[phazonmutant]

I would only go to a $100+ buy-in tourney if the venue was extremely nice, there was a dress code, and cocktails were available. None of this generic shitty hotel conference room nonsense.

Maybe I'm on to something here...private tables, no spectators milling around, and a noise policy. When your match is finished you shake hands, congratulate each other, and step out to the bar for conversation.

So when is this happening?

[dontbiteitholmes]

I think people are getting a little too theoretical here.

#1- The number of "serious" Legacy players in the US is miniscule compared to the number of "serious" Poker players. On any given day more people probably play Poker in Atlantic City/Vegas then total number of people who have played in a real Legacy event in the past year.
#2- It's a lot easier to pay a $100-$500 buy-in for a poker event because you didn't have to pay $1000+ before you showed up just to make sure you weren't playing the only deck in the room without 4 Aces and 4 Kings.
#3- The average poker player probably has a lot more money then the average Magic player.

So we can stop pretending like Magic is Poker now, k thx. Magic is and will always be lower stakes than Poker where the whole point is to win money. In Magic the reward is lower but so is the risk (by a huge margin).

#4- A big point a lot of people seem to be missing. If you set your entry fee for an event at $500 you might get 10-20 people. If you set your fee for an event at $100 you might get 50-100 people. If you set your entry fee at $50, well a GP is $40 and sometimes legacy GPs can get 1000+ people, and what's an extra $10? Everyone keeps talking shit about the people who are scared to enter an event with a high entry cost, but you WANT these people to come. They look at it as a small chance to do well, and otherwise $50 for a fun event and some trades/a reason to get out of town. It's like paying $50 to go to an amusement park for some people. And I gives a fuck WHY you show up. If you came to win or to have fun that's still more cash in the pool. If lowering your fee 50% brings in one "more casual player" for every "shark" who's willing to plop $100, congratulations you just doubled your attendance. Now rent some fucking tables out to vendors to cover your overhead because your theoretical event apparently puts 100% of the entry in the pool and otherwise someone is going to lose a lot of money unless they have ins with a lot of judges who work on charity and the most generous event hall ever.

The way I see it "theory" aside, there are 2 ways to do "big payout events" in Legacy.

#1- The SCG/Jupiter model. Lots of smaller events feeding into 1/2 bigger events. SCG has 2 Invis a year. Their payout for top 8 in these events is almost exactly the figure you throw out as a top 8 payout.
Now what's the smart move if I'm the caliber of player who thinks throwing down $500 on a single event could be a power play? Play in 2 SCG open weekends that are closest to me in 6 months (so for my $500 I get 4 events @ $160 total entry leaving $340 to spend on food/travel/lodging), then I have 4 chances to money significant amounts and all I have to do is top 8 in 1 of 4 events or come close a number of times to qualify, or throw down $500 on a single day of MTG (not counting food/travel/lodging) and risk getting blown out by bad beats or some rando and get nothing for my troubles. Hmm.

#2- Huge event. See Bazaar of Moxen for example. You basically bill yourself as an unofficial GP. Throw side events, rent out vendor tables, etc. Put up some guaranteed prizes and hope a bunch of people show up.

[PirateKing]

dontbiteitholmes
A good point, and well made. But I would suggest that it is for that very reason that more high stakes tournaments could be used to attract attention to Legacy.

Since there is a preamble buy-in in the range of $2,000 for any sanctioned Legacy tournament before you even walk through the door, the thought of winning $200 on a good weekend just doesn't justly warrant attention beyond those already interested in Magic. I feel that by generating a handful of headlines that pretty much say someone won money orders of magnitude beyond their initial investment, it would positively raise the level of interest in Legacy play beyond those already playing Magic. To stretch the poker similes further, once the publicity of potential winnings over buy-in become more widespread, there followed a large influx of players who were not established poker players. Wall street type people whose jobs were making calculated risk/reward decisions for profit found that their professional skills could be applied over a weekend for the potential to get a lot of money. And the complexities of high level Magic play can be huge selling point for people looking for a challenge. Just preparing for a tournament and predicting the meta is a challenge. But if the highest reward is to break even, it's no wonder nobody is interested.

And I get why small entry/purse tournaments are popular, and I am not advocating their demise. But applying the same prize payout of a Standard tournament just doesn't scale fairly as you move up in level. I mean, SCG uses the same table for Sealed as they do for Legacy. So I am not surprised there is such a resistance in people breaking into Legacy. Small tournaments make sense in Standard and Draft, the mean age group there is high school and college, and the fees and upkeep fit nicely in their budget. But Legacy is a completely different animal. I go to tournaments and recognize Legacy as an adult game, people who have graduated and have jobs and are applying their wealth to a very expensive hobby instead of fast cars or what have you. Telling a high school kid they won $1,000 in their tournament is a huge deal for them. Telling me I won $1,000 in a Legacy tournament just sounds like I spent two grand and 12 hours to win one grand. It will cover car and house payments for the month, with some money left over for groceries.

So it would be so much better of a pitch to people to tell them if they want to spend $100 on a deck and $40 on a tournament and hope to win $2,000 play Standard. On the other hand, if they want to spend $2,000 on a deck and $200 on a tournament, they could hope to win $500,000. You would generate much needed interest in the format and help justify the crazy expense that is Legacy.

And while local laws vary, gambling laws are limited to games of chance, and have no jurisdiction over games of skill. The argument is being made across the country that poker is a game of skill, which is why online poker is being investigated not for gambling reasons, but for money laundering/tax evasion reasons.

[nedleeds]

Everyone could just stop being pussies and show up to Legacy and Vintage worlds ... we could all agree to put $25 each in a pickle jar before hand. Winner takes it all, loser takes it all. Winner takes it all over the top.

[Phelix]

poker/magic comparision - less sense. Consider the deck, or collection your bankroll, and we are getting closer. Most serious legacy players have a "bankroll" comprised of their owned cards, far lager than 100/200/300 dollar buyin - making that sensible. just like a pokerplayer playing 1100 dollar wsop event, should have a large bankroll.

and then there always random fish/durdlers who fork over the cash for fun and the right to dream of winning.

[Richard Cheese]

Step 1 - Rent out floor of swanky building in Manhattan (so I can play in it)
Step 2-5 - Hookers, Alcohol, Bouncers, Nice Tables
Step 6 - No Bullshit
Step 7 - Play Magic with your Swag out.

Profit is somewhere down the line.

Please come clean shaved.

Swag? Really? This is a gentleman's game, and gentlemen don't have swag, they have class. Allow me to illustrate:

Swag:
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lvsjatcSQ11r6h4iqo1_500.jpg

Class:
http://cdn1.elitedaily.com/elite/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Dr+No+James+Bond+Sean+Connery1.jpg

Here's a handy guide for proper gentleman's attire.:
Black Tie Guide (http://www.blacktieguide.com/)

Also no hookers. Cocktail waitresses are fine, but they are to be treated as ladies.

@Koby - BYOB? Unless you're after something pretty rare, most upscale hotel bars should have a good selection of high-end stuff. What's your poison?

@Phazon - Whenever we're all available? Seriously though, if people have enough interest in this we can try to set something up. It would never be sanctioned, and most of the entry fee would probably go to covering the venue, but it would be a good time. Hell, if I could manage GP Vegas I'd try to set something up then, but I don't think I can make it.

[thecrav]

@Koby - BYOB? Unless you're after something pretty rare, most upscale hotel bars should have a good selection of high-end stuff. What's your poison?


Yea, but I don't want to pay $20 a glass to drink $100 bottles :/

[Sloshthedark]

few hundred is fine for me, prizes in "serious tournaments" and MtG tournaments overall are ridiculously low compared to the buy-in into the game, time spent and costs to get there (GP and such)

[Richard Cheese]

Yea, but I don't want to pay $20 a glass to drink $100 bottles :/

Such is the way of the world I'm afraid. If you want to drink for retail prices, your only real option is to stay home.