[Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

[Qweerios]

I am currently playing the Chrome Mox version and have to say that I really like Phyrexian Obliterator. I find him superior to Crusader in every way. I think Crusader is overrated. He is only ever a situationally protected 2/2 for 1WW. The possibility of a double equipment trigger is blinding people to what the card really is.

To answer the question, I use 2 Jitte and a SoFI with my 4 SFM. I play my equipments for the damage they cause and the advantage they give me, not for the protection they give to my tokens or creatures. For that very reason I think that SoLS is trash.

[Rizso]

Has any1 played vs Supreme Blue recently? I figured out that its one of the most chill matchups I ever had I went (at home testplaying) 6-1 roofl :)
But my neighbour got affnity, its kinda tough to win vs that to be honest :/

Do i see this right that SoLaS and SoFaI are outdated by SoFaF,SoBaM and SoWaP?

SoLaS yes, SoFaI no. Imo the abilities on the other swords are more useful then the SoLaS for this deck. I play less then 16 creatures, vial version maybe as I would have at least 20 creatures in that version.

With 7+ cards in your hand not even progenitus can race SoWaP :P

[Einherjer]

Ill post the list i play atm now

4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Swamp
4 Plains

4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawas Jitte
1 SoFaF
1 SoLaS
1 Batterskull

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Mother of Runes
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Serra Avenger
4 Dark Confidant
2 Jotun Grunt

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
2 Smother



What problems I have with this deck?
I mean its not bad and winning quite often, but Id like to add more disruptive elements - discard ofc - but what should I cut for it? suggestions?

[Qweerios]

-3 Plains
-1 SoFF
-2 Mother of Runes
-2 Jotun Grunt
-1 Vindicate
-2 Smother

+2 Verdant Catacombs
+1 Fetid Heath
+4 Thoughtseize
+4 Hymn to Tourach

[Einherjer]

-3 Plains
-1 SoFF
-2 Mother of Runes
-2 Jotun Grunt
-1 Vindicate
-2 Smother

+2 Verdant Catacombs
+1 Fetid Heath
+4 Thoughtseize
+4 Hymn to Tourach

2 Mothers? Wouldnt it be better playing no mothers, but 2 Jotuns?

[bokwinkle]

As far as equipment goes...I will never cut Jitte or SoFI from my list. Jitte is a swiss army knife and SoFI is the most consistent fast clock and only equipment that flat out draws you cards when considering equipment. All of the other equipment talked about here (SoBM, SoLaS, SoWaP, SoFF, Batterskull) is conditionally good, depending on your meta and your build. Batterskull is quickly becoming another "must have" equipment though, IMHO.

As for SFM, I'll continue to look for ways to maintain a package of about 7-8 finishers in this deck as through my testing and experience this always seems like the right number. In that 7-8, I include all equipment and stoneforge mystics...and anything over 3 mana is probably also a finisher. If my primary win con was SFM and equipment then I'd probably run a 4/4 split with SoFI, Jitte, Batterskull, and the 4th equipment would depend on meta. Alternatively, I'm also actively persuing ways to include at least one enlightened tutor in the deck, so having more equipment targets will make E-Tutor stronger, and it gives the opportunity to run stuff like Moat and Runed Halo in the board. IMHO running more E-Tutor and SFM also turn the deck more to white though and more susceptable to Null Rod and losses to Affinity (because equipment is slow and you can't run null rod yourself as easilly), so if you have a meta prepared for affinity I'd probably look for different SFM counts...and I'd be cautious about running Vial or Chrome Mox as well.

Filter lands...They are great in white heavy lists trying to run Hymn, or black heavy lists trying to run Crusader, or any deck trying to run Obliterator. However, they are more non-basics in a deck that is generally pretty resiliant to wasteland...I guess it depends on if you think you are gaining more from running hymn, crusader, and/or Obliterator than you are loosing from becoming more vulnerable to wasteland. I don't necessarilly fear wasteland, but it's the most common card in legacy, so being able to play around or through it will make any deck more resilient.

Chrome Mox...I hate this card. I've tried to like it, but it's straight up card disadvantage and more weakness to Null Rod (as stated above). To me, DGA is all about card advantage, so running chrome mox just seems counter intuitive...personally, if I'm going to run a card that has card disadvantage, it's going to be E-Tutor or Dark Ritual.

[Rizso]

As far as equipment goes...I will never cut Jitte or SoFI from my list. Jitte is a swiss army knife and SoFI is the most consistent fast clock and only equipment that flat out draws you cards when considering equipment. All of the other equipment talked about here (SoBM, SoLaS, SoWaP, SoFF, Batterskull) is conditionally good, depending on your meta and your build. Batterskull is quickly becoming another "must have" equipment though, IMHO.

As for SFM, I'll continue to look for ways to maintain a package of about 7-8 finishers in this deck as through my testing and experience this always seems like the right number. In that 7-8, I include all equipment and stoneforge mystics...and anything over 3 mana is probably also a finisher. If my primary win con was SFM and equipment then I'd probably run a 4/4 split with SoFI, Jitte, Batterskull, and the 4th equipment would depend on meta. Alternatively, I'm also actively persuing ways to include at least one enlightened tutor in the deck, so having more equipment targets will make E-Tutor stronger, and it gives the opportunity to run stuff like Moat and Runed Halo in the board. IMHO running more E-Tutor and SFM also turn the deck more to white though and more susceptable to Null Rod and losses to Affinity (because equipment is slow and you can't run null rod yourself as easilly), so if you have a meta prepared for affinity I'd probably look for different SFM counts...and I'd be cautious about running Vial or Chrome Mox as well.

Filter lands...They are great in white heavy lists trying to run Hymn, or black heavy lists trying to run Crusader, or any deck trying to run Obliterator. However, they are more non-basics in a deck that is generally pretty resiliant to wasteland...I guess it depends on if you think you are gaining more from running hymn, crusader, and/or Obliterator than you are loosing from becoming more vulnerable to wasteland. I don't necessarilly fear wasteland, but it's the most common card in legacy, so being able to play around or through it will make any deck more resilient.

Chrome Mox...I hate this card. I've tried to like it, but it's straight up card disadvantage and more weakness to Null Rod (as stated above). To me, DGA is all about card advantage, so running chrome mox just seems counter intuitive...personally, if I'm going to run a card that has card disadvantage, it's going to be E-Tutor or Dark Ritual.

We are running a 2 color deck with more basics then most otherdecks we can afford having better better manabase with a filterland or 2. Nothing is worse then lose to your own deck as you dont get the right colors on a clutch turn. Like Starting with t1 plain and want to get that turn 3 Gatekeeper.

As for the Chome Mox is pushes out our stronger spells wich are the 2cc spot.

Opted to go for 4 Vindicates main deck now. Simple way to deal with Jaces, enemy batterskulls / swords as well complimenting wastelands to screw your opponents more greedy mana bases! :P

[Einherjer]

What I was gonn ask - is it only my meta that makes discard useless and removal 100% important or what? Cause i mostly play DnT Affinity and GW Aggro, and always im pissed when i draw a discard. So im playing 0-4 Discard atm.... What do you think?
+ I need a cc1 Drop for my Aether vial - and idk if mother is that good - especially with the above mentioned Affinity in my neighbourhood....

+ I tried to play Extirpate -and it was suprprisingly useful - ok im sure you guys wont like it :)

[bfeingersh]

I like Extirpate quite a bit actually. My sideboard currently looks like this:

2 Extirpate
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Perish
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Bitterblossom (2 main)
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Diabolic Edict

I don't really like the Revokers. I need something to improve my Zoo matchup (despite having 3 Perishes, I can't seem to beat them... ever), so I might put Kitchen Finks in their slot. Or maybe just more removal at the 1-2 drop slot.

[MoonDark]

I like Extirpate quite a bit actually. My sideboard currently looks like this:

2 Extirpate
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Perish
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Bitterblossom (2 main)
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Diabolic Edict

I don't really like the Revokers. I need something to improve my Zoo matchup (despite having 3 Perishes, I can't seem to beat them... ever), so I might put Kitchen Finks in their slot. Or maybe just more removal at the 1-2 drop slot.

Test porcelain legionarie, he can block wild nacatl and kird apes. He will eat removal though, but in that match I think it's better than revoker.

[Einherjer]

Test porcelain legionarie, he can block wild nacatl and kird apes. He will eat removal though, but in that match I think it's better than revoker.

TBH i play with 2 Revoker Main, there is hardly a matchup where I dont wanna have em

[Mr. Safety]

As far as equipment goes...I will never cut Jitte or SoFI from my list. Jitte is a swiss army knife and SoFI is the most consistent fast clock and only equipment that flat out draws you cards when considering equipment. All of the other equipment talked about here (SoBM, SoLaS, SoWaP, SoFF, Batterskull) is conditionally good, depending on your meta and your build. Batterskull is quickly becoming another "must have" equipment though, IMHO.

As for SFM, I'll continue to look for ways to maintain a package of about 7-8 finishers in this deck as through my testing and experience this always seems like the right number. In that 7-8, I include all equipment and stoneforge mystics...and anything over 3 mana is probably also a finisher. If my primary win con was SFM and equipment then I'd probably run a 4/4 split with SoFI, Jitte, Batterskull, and the 4th equipment would depend on meta. Alternatively, I'm also actively persuing ways to include at least one enlightened tutor in the deck, so having more equipment targets will make E-Tutor stronger, and it gives the opportunity to run stuff like Moat and Runed Halo in the board. IMHO running more E-Tutor and SFM also turn the deck more to white though and more susceptable to Null Rod and losses to Affinity (because equipment is slow and you can't run null rod yourself as easilly), so if you have a meta prepared for affinity I'd probably look for different SFM counts...and I'd be cautious about running Vial or Chrome Mox as well.

Filter lands...They are great in white heavy lists trying to run Hymn, or black heavy lists trying to run Crusader, or any deck trying to run Obliterator. However, they are more non-basics in a deck that is generally pretty resiliant to wasteland...I guess it depends on if you think you are gaining more from running hymn, crusader, and/or Obliterator than you are loosing from becoming more vulnerable to wasteland. I don't necessarilly fear wasteland, but it's the most common card in legacy, so being able to play around or through it will make any deck more resilient.

Chrome Mox...I hate this card. I've tried to like it, but it's straight up card disadvantage and more weakness to Null Rod (as stated above). To me, DGA is all about card advantage, so running chrome mox just seems counter intuitive...personally, if I'm going to run a card that has card disadvantage, it's going to be E-Tutor or Dark Ritual.

Lotus Petal is concievably better, but not by much. Dark Ritual is the only viable alternative. Turn 1 Ritz into Thoughtsieze and Bitterblossom seems pretty good to me :)

[nestle_19]

Guys just a couple of questions:
1) Do you usually play dark confidant and bitterblossom at the same time? Will the lifeloss be worth it?
2) How do we beat Merfolk?
THANKS

[Qweerios]

Guys just a couple of questions:
1) Do you usually play dark confidant and bitterblossom at the same time? Will the lifeloss be worth it?
2) How do we beat Merfolk?
THANKS

1) It depends on the matchup and how early you can lay them down but most of the time, yes, I don't mind having both in play. The life loss can be outset by Jitte or VNH.
2) I beat merfolk by sneaking a SFM through and securing a SoFI or Jitte. I pack 2-3 Eplagues for G2-3.

Here is my list for reference, I don't think i've ever posted it:


Creatures (14)
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
3 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Phyrexian Obliterator

Spells (19)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Bitterblossom
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate

Artifacts (6)
3 Chrome Mox
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Lands (21)
4 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Swamp
1 Plains

Sideboard (15)
3 Pithing Needle
4 Nihil Spellbomb
4 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Engineered Plague


I really dislike the idea of Chrome Mox and its card disadvantage but It is definitely more powerful than Dark Ritual. My deck really lacks 1CMC cards so making full use of a ritual on T1 is a rare thing. Furthermore, Mox stays on the field for subsequent turns and allows me not only to drop my bombs on T1 but also to keep up the pressure on T2 while laying down a Wasteland. I have no problems with my manabase and playing around Wasteland. I am not yet sold on Batterskull and will have to see it get more action. Obliterator stands tall like a mountain against aggro and carries equipments unblocked when the air is crowded.

[Einherjer]

If i play with BB I play confidant the same time, but I dont play BB to be honest. But yes I would.
And how we beat Merrow? Stoneforge T2 SoFaI and best another Stoneforge for Batterskull, then it should be easy - atleast for my list.

[nestle_19]

If i play with BB I play confidant the same time, but I dont play BB to be honest. But yes I would.
And how we beat Merrow? Stoneforge T2 SoFaI and best another Stoneforge for Batterskull, then it should be easy - atleast for my list.

But the thing is sometimes their Lords pump their guys and SOFAI cant kill their dudes. So its off to the races then?or Jitte? Im really having a hard time with merfolk for some reason -sigh-.

[bokwinkle]

you have to save your removal and discard for their lords, run E-plague after board, and play around daze/cursecatcher.

merfolk plays 8 cards that are straight-up card disadvantage (FoW + Vial), so if you can set up a few key blocks and or removal spells early and follow that up with stuff like Jitte and/or Batterskull they will fold quickly. Jitte, Batterskull, and SoFI are absolute beatings for them since they are card advantage AND make your creatures bigger than theirs - they generally don't have removal and they don't like attacking into big dudes. I win a lot of games against merfolk at less than 5 life with them having either just a FoW or just a vial in hand...it's all about stabalizing and establishing board position and then winning through card advantage.

[Einherjer]

Guys, ive been testplaying a team america list today... the one showed at the thread at DtB... and it was unbelieveable... i won 9 out of 10 games. Oh god I want this Deck at all my tournaments :)

[Qweerios]

What do you guys think of this really weird Vial Deadguy version?


Creatures (20)
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vault Skirge
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Etched Champion

Spells (8)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Inquisition of Kozilek

Artifacts (12)
4 Mox Opal
4 Aether Vial
2 Cranial Plating
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Lands (20)
4 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Ancient Den
4 Vault of Whispers

Sideboard (15)
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Nihil Spellbomb
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Diabolic Edict

[MoonDark]

Guys, ive been testplaying a team america list today... the one showed at the thread at DtB... and it was unbelieveable... i won 9 out of 10 games. Oh god I want this Deck at all my tournaments :)

With what list ? :)

[Einherjer]

the standart one: FoW, Daze, Snuff out, Goyf, Tombstalker, Brainstorm, Ponder, Thoughtseize, Sinkhole... I think that was the core - it was easy as.....babypoo :)

[Richard Cheese]

@Philipp: What does that have to do with Deadguy?

@Qweerios: I'm not a huge fan of Vault Skirge. I would probably drop them and run some combination of Revoker/Canonist instead. You should definitely also check out Dispatch. Maybe a 2/2 split with swords, or drop IoK or something. E. Tutor is also something worth considering. It gives you a ton of flexibility main, and even more sideboard. 2 Main and 1 in the board is a pretty good start.

[Rizso]

If using Tutor boards I recommend having a phyrexian metamorph against progenitus, emrakul, iona and other trubblesome legends. Cant be Missteped, spellpierced or spellsnared :P

[Star|Scream]

If using Tutor boards I recommend having a phyrexian metamorph against progenitus, emrakul, iona and other trubblesome legends. Cant be Missteped, spellpierced or spellsnared :P

too bad Tutor can be :(

[Richard Cheese]

Metamorph is also theoretically really good against TA. If you copy their Tombstalker, they can't hit it with Snuff out, GftT, or Doom Blade. All they can really do is trade with it.

[Qweerios]

Metamorph is also theoretically really good against TA. If you copy their Tombstalker, they can't hit it with Snuff out, GftT, or Doom Blade. All they can really do is trade with it.

Of course they can GftT it...

EDIT... nvm it stays an artifact

[Tacosnape]

So I've been testing DGA for weeks, and never felt like I could get the deck consistent enough until I started cutting a few cards regarded as staples in the resurgence. I decided I hated Thoughtseize, hated Bitterblossom, and hated Phyrexian Obliterator, so I did Taco stuff and cut them all. The result was a faster, more consistent, much more streamlined Deadguy Ale.

So I decided to break from Blue (Mostly. See Sideboard) and play it at locals tonight. I played the following list:

4 Marsh Flats
1 Polluted Delta
4 Scrubland
5 Swamp
3 Fetid Heath
3 Wasteland
3 Chrome Mox

1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Duress
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

3 Mother of Runes
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Mirran Crusader

SB:
3 Mental Misstep
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Gerrard's Verdict
1 Engineered Plague
1 Perish
1 Darkblast
1 Serenity
1 Phyrexian Unlife
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Tidehollow Sculler

I managed to beat Zoo 2-0, some weird Myr deck 2-0, Death and Taxes 2-0, and Junk/Rock 2-0. Semifinals went 2-0 over Junk/Rock again, and split with Death and Taxes. I didn't drop a single game.

The following was what I learned:

1. Stoneforge Mystic into Batterskull is format-defining. I'm not sure any 2-drop shapes this format more right now. It's what Counterbalance used to be. Batterskull won me so many games I can't even count, and the game I came the closest to losing was when Death and Taxes got on the better end of the Batterskull.

2. Sensei's Divining Top won me every game it hit. I've since cut both Duress from main and added a fourth Inquisition and a second Top.

3. Fetid Heath was a monster all night except for the one hand I had to mulligan where it and Wasteland were my only two lands. I think the right number is about 2.5 of them. I'm rounding up at current.

4. Mental Misstep is a godsend on the draw. Every Deadguy Ale player has had those hands where you get the discard spell, and the Hymn, and the Confidant, and you're just racing to stabilize because while you're trying to do all this, guys are hitting you in the face. Misstep makes you able to round that corner so much more efficiently.

5. Every time I saw a 1CMC Black discard spell in my hand, the best card it could have been for the situation was Inquisition of Kozilek. Every time.

6. My sideboard's pretty goofy. Not necessarily ineffective, but goofy. I'd probably change a couple cards up. Tidehollow Sculler, Ethersworn Canonist, Engineered Plague, and Phyrexian Unlife all saw no action all night, and I'd contemplate switching out any of them but the Canonist.

[Einherjer]

OH DAMNIT ITS FREAKING good to see a DGA-List that high rated. Very nice, good work, really, Im impressed, didnt expect my Archtype(the only Deck i got :P ) to be that good :)
Do you think to be experienced enough to turn my Vial-list in a aggro-comptetive Version? Cause when i play vs Control, im nearly as good as you are (9-1 vs TA 5-0 vs Supreme Blue) but Zoo ánd other aggros are just overrunning me. What would you change?

4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
2 Fetid Heath
3 Swamps
2 Plains

4 Aether Vial
1 Sword of FIre and Ice
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawas Jitte

4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Serra Avenger
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Jotun Grunt

4 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Duress
2 Inquistion of Kozilek
2 Hymn to Tourach


Thank you very much for trying :)

Greetings

[Star|Scream]

OH DAMNIT ITS FREAKING good to see a DGA-List that high rated. Very nice, good work, really, Im impressed, didnt expect my Archtype(the only Deck i got :P ) to be that good :)
Do you think to be experienced enough to turn my Vial-list in a aggro-comptetive Version? Cause when i play vs Control, im nearly as good as you are (9-1 vs TA 5-0 vs Supreme Blue) but Zoo ánd other aggros are just overrunning me. What would you change?


It looks like crusader would be better served as a beater than grunt or avenger. Every creature in your list dies to bolt, path, stp, (except grunt) and you have very little to protect them outside of sof&i. It is my opinion that either mom or misstep will help out against targeted removal, and the crusader will help out against goyfs, nacatls, knights, etc.

[Tacosnape]

OH DAMNIT ITS FREAKING good to see a DGA-List that high rated. Very nice, good work, really, Im impressed, didnt expect my Archtype(the only Deck i got :P ) to be that good :)
Do you think to be experienced enough to turn my Vial-list in a aggro-comptetive Version? Cause when i play vs Control, im nearly as good as you are (9-1 vs TA 5-0 vs Supreme Blue) but Zoo ánd other aggros are just overrunning me. What would you change?

4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
2 Fetid Heath
3 Swamps
2 Plains

4 Aether Vial
1 Sword of FIre and Ice
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawas Jitte

4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Serra Avenger
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Jotun Grunt

4 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Duress
2 Inquistion of Kozilek
2 Hymn to Tourach

Thank you very much for trying :)

Greetings

Four major things, without going into too much analysis.

1. Jotun Grunt is the blows. Make him go away.

2. Mother of Runes is an absolute monster with both Dark Confidant and Stoneforge Mystic. I'd try to get a trio of them in at least. Equipment is very prone to fast removal that eats your tempo for breakfast, and Deadguy Ale is already one of the slower decks of its type in Legacy.

3. Your land count is dangerously light. Maybe not with the Vials, but I tend to err on the side of caution and want at least 20 lands in a deck like this.

4. If you're having the most trouble with aggro, just sell out and run four Inquisition of Kozilek instead of Duress (Keep a couple Duress around for board, though.).

So basically, I'm advising you to cut two cards and somehow add about five or six. Good stuff, no?

FWIW, I don't like Serra Avenger in Legacy. While I think the undercosted body is pretty neat and I appreciate the Vial synergy, I can't think of very many matchups at all where she actually shines compared to guys who are either huge or do stuff. That said, in your given list, she's probably pretty decent, so there you go.

[Einherjer]

So the only real thing youd change is - 2 revoker -2 grunt +4 Mother if i understand you right?

[CorpT]

Can we all just agree that Grunt is terrible and should never be put in a deck again so we don't have to go through this anymore?

[Einherjer]

yesyes ok grunt is horrible - rofl :)
What you guys think of Phyrexian Revoker Mainboard? Its kinda nice to land him T2 vs Affinity on Crancial Plating or stuff like that

[Anthem]

As long as I've been playing Deadguy, there's something I've always wanted to try, if you all can humor me:

Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Mother of Runes
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Vampire Hexmage

Spells
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Grim Discovery
4 Mental Misstep
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vindicate

Artifacts
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands
2 Dark Depths
4 Marsh Flats
4 Plains
2 Scrubland
5 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland

This is intended to include the Depths combo in a Deadguy shell; that is, it plays like tempo and suddenly becomes combo, or vice-versa. I consider Dark Depths to be a SPELL and not a land. Grim Discovery is beautiful for this deck as it gets back both combo pieces, or recycles a Wasteland and a creature I lost, etc. Hexmage fits in well even without the combo it seemed, as it's a first striker that says "Destroy target Jace/Elspeth".

When I see Urborg, it lets me switch nicely between Turn 1 Mother (Plains) and Turn 2 Hexmage (Urborg), or Turn 1 Inquisition (Urborg) to Turn 2 Hexmage (Depths) activating the combo Turn 2 after disruption. Misstep in the best case protects the 20/20 (or Dark Confidant!) from a stray StP.

I haven't come up with a sideboard yet, but the matchups are generally the same as Deadguy, except Countertop slaughters this. Any kind of constructive input would be appreciated.

[Tacosnape]

RE Hexmage Ale: I actually used to run this deck. You don't need the two Swords of X and Y with your minimal Stoneforge package. Adding one Batterskull and a third Stoneforge in their place would be plenty.

Also, if you aren't mainboarding it, at least sideboard Aether Vial. It's so good in Hexmage Depths, especially given how it'll drop a Mom, then a Hexmage, then you win.


yesyes ok grunt is horrible - rofl :)
What you guys think of Phyrexian Revoker Mainboard? Its kinda nice to land him T2 vs Affinity on Crancial Plating or stuff like that

I have no problem with mainboard Revoker. He's randomly amazing. I just don't personally run him because he doesn't play nice with Chrome Mox.


Can we all just agree that Grunt is terrible and should never be put in a deck again so we don't have to go through this anymore?

Agreed. Six Lesbian Points for you.

[Anthem]

RE Hexmage Ale: I actually used to run this deck. You don't need the two Swords of X and Y with your minimal Stoneforge package. Adding one Batterskull and a third Stoneforge in their place would be plenty.

Also, if you aren't mainboarding it, at least sideboard Aether Vial. It's so good in Hexmage Depths, especially given how it'll drop a Mom, then a Hexmage, then you win.


Cool. I'll definitely give that a shot. Since you used to run this deck, do you mind posting what your sideboard was? I know it's meta-dependent, but I need some general ideas for grave hate, combo hate, etc.

[colo]

Can we all just agree that Grunt is terrible and should never be put in a deck again so we don't have to go through this anymore?

...and brand us all utter jackasses in the process? Nah, I'd rather not do that, actually!

Jotun Grunt is the white Tarmogoyf.

[Einherjer]

Lets put it this way: Jotun Grunt not as good as other cards, but in sideboard and in the real matchups hes just a house :)

[Qweerios]

I got first place at a 30ish players tournament after beating red sligh 2-0, NO/Prog Bant 2-0, and ANT 2-1 with the following list:


Creatures (14)
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Dark Confidant
4 Nyxathid
2 Phyrexian Obliterator

Spells (23)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Gerrard's Verdict
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate

Artifacts (2)
2 The Rack

Lands (21)
4 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Swamp
1 Plains

Sideboard (15)
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Pithing Needle
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Engineered Plague


I basically threw the cards I had availlable together into a deck and it turned out pretty good. Nyxathid and The Rack have really put the hurt on with the constant discard.

[Tacosnape]

Lets put it this way: Jotun Grunt not as good as other cards, but in sideboard and in the real matchups hes just a house :)

No. He's not. There isn't a single matchup in existence for Deadguy Ale where he's worth his salt. His high selling point was always that he was good against Tarmogoyf, and that's back when Tarmogoyf was the flagship creature of Legacy. Tarmogoyf isn't anymore.


...and brand us all utter jackasses in the process? Nah, I'd rather not do that, actually!

Jotun Grunt is the white Tarmogoyf.

This is a terrible counterargument on your part for two reasons.

1. Tarmogoyf stays around. If nobody resolves anything else, your Tarmogoyf will go the distance. This is not true of Jotun Grunt. Jotun Grunt is actually the white Browbeat. Your opponent gets to decide if losing a bunch of life is the better choice to spending removal on it.

2. Tarmogoyf is actually a 2-drop. If enough shit gets flung around, Goyf can be huge on turn two, but more likely he'll be light to medium-sized and get bigger in two turns. The point is, he's still good dropped turn two. Jotun Grunt is terrible dropped turn two.

3. Tarmogoyf isn't really that amazing in Legacy anymore. I'll continue to say it and continue to be ahead of my time, but it's no longer a format-defining card. It shows up in a few decks packing green for other reasons as just a highly efficient meatbag, but decks don't splash for him anymore. He doesn't disrupt combo, he doesn't stop removal, and his top comparison in mana cost for bang-for-your-buck is Stoneforge Mystic, who wins in a straight up race every time.

So I guess my long point is, don't run Jotun Grunt.

[Einherjer]

Guys, I know you guys might think Im mad now or stuff - but I was on a local tournament (morel ike friends) and I always played with proxed vindicates, so I packed 2 more discard and 2 more removal into it, and damniiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit it worked, so fucking good, the brutal cardadvantage this decks produces, is kinda stopped down by cc3 spells - this way I was able to fuck off enemies hand with extra discard and clean the battlefield with PtE - Id try that aswell :) Maybe it was just´luck, but I won matchups I normally loose.....

[MoonDark]

Guys, I know you guys might think Im mad now or stuff - but I was on a local tournament (morel ike friends) and I always played with proxed vindicates, so I packed 2 more discard and 2 more removal into it, and damniiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit it worked, so fucking good, the brutal cardadvantage this decks produces, is kinda stopped down by cc3 spells - this way I was able to fuck off enemies hand with extra discard and clean the battlefield with PtE - Id try that aswell :) Maybe it was just´luck, but I won matchups I normally loose.....

you mean, instead of vindicates right ?

[Rizso]

Guys, I know you guys might think Im mad now or stuff - but I was on a local tournament (morel ike friends) and I always played with proxed vindicates, so I packed 2 more discard and 2 more removal into it, and damniiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit it worked, so fucking good, the brutal cardadvantage this decks produces, is kinda stopped down by cc3 spells - this way I was able to fuck off enemies hand with extra discard and clean the battlefield with PtE - Id try that aswell :) Maybe it was just´luck, but I won matchups I normally loose.....

But you are playing a vial version right?

As a chrome mox user I like every vindicate i see in my hand either for Chrome Mox food or just destroying permanents doesnt matter its been really awesome for me.

[Einherjer]

Ye instead of Vindicates, and yes im playing the Aether-build - what ya think guys?

+ I was thinking about DGA and other Stoneforgedecks... (atleast my DGA runs 4 SFM) and ye... i found out that we are kinda... weak once the enemy boarded something ... so I think we need a second win option... what would this be? any ides?

Thanks n Greetings

[Leto]

sure, sounds really cool to scoop against any Enchantment or Artifact that hits the board

Examples: Moat, Humility, Ensnaring Bridge, the whole Staxx/Enchantress-Deck, Vials, Batterskull, Counterbalance and the whole Utility-Land-Bunch when no Wasteland is on sight

or to pack couple of bad cards to board after loosing round 1 to random

I don't think that loosing some much flexability is worth it in a diverse Meta. If you know your Meta well and play small Tourneys with a pack of Friends its ok, but when I look at my last Tourney, there was no opponent where I wasn't happy about a drawn Vindicate (Staxx, 2x RU-Stiflenought, Mirror, Dredge, Elves)

[Einherjer]

Dude i just played 2headed giant with zoo vs TA and GW Zenith - 3 games- at 2 of the games I had 1-3 Vindicates at hand, and I could NEVER play em, I wasted their mana, they wasted mine, i never had more than 2 lands.... explanation? What do I make wrong?

[CorpT]

Dude i just played 2headed giant with zoo vs TA and GW Zenith - 3 games- at 2 of the games I had 1-3 Vindicates at hand, and I could NEVER play em, I wasted their mana, they wasted mine, i never had more than 2 lands.... explanation? What do I make wrong?

You were playing a 2HG game instead of a real game. You're basing deck decisions on a sample size of 3. Why bother posting and considering results from something that isn't going to happen in a tournament? Play real games, against real opponents and real decks and use those results to determine your deck. Not 3 games of 2HG.

[Einherjer]

It wasnt that I came across this idea today at this games - I was playing at local tournament vs Zoo, Enchantress, Ichorid, Landstill, Merrow, Gw Zenith, Affinity , Rock and some more .... and only at Enchantress/Affinity Vindicate is nice - I replaced it by Discard+Extraremoval due my Aggrometa.
Try it yourself - honestly

Greetings

[Leto]

well, I love it against Ichorid (too bad for them, they run only 15 lands) and Merrow (Vials, Lords) as well.

[Tacosnape]

I can easily see not maindecking Vindicates if you don't run Chrome rather than maindecking them. Despite its amazing versatility, the card's slow and clunky and walks into Daze all day long. Besides, in Mox builds you want about 16 dudes. In Vial ones you want around 22.

I personally won't touch my four, though. I'm with Rizso. Chrome Mox makes it easier to cast in a timely manner, and it's also fantastic Mox Chow.

[Einherjer]

So if I got you right Taco, you agree with me to some point, not to play vindicates in a Vialbuild?

And by the way, what swords are you guys playing? I play SoFaI(for the aggropart) and SoBaM(for the defensive part)

Godspeed

[Tim the Enchanter]

Ye instead of Vindicates, and yes im playing the Aether-build - what ya think guys?

+ I was thinking about DGA and other Stoneforgedecks... (atleast my DGA runs 4 SFM) and ye... i found out that we are kinda... weak once the enemy boarded something ... so I think we need a second win option... what would this be? any ides?

Thanks n Greetings

I think Vial builds are junk right now, there's no reason not be running Bitterblossom as it's just THAT good.

Vindicate is at least a 3x in any build as it gives you real answers to things you would just lose to otherwise.

In other news: I placed 15th in Baltimore last night out of 400+ people. My list can be found here http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=39285

I had no time to play test between Charlotte and the Invitational nor between the Invitational and Baltimore and wasn't happy with my performance at the Invitational, so I took Joe Bernel's list with zero testing. There are definitely some things I would change. I would play a 3rd StP in the main and a 4th in the board, if not main. Sword of Body and Mind NEEDS to be in the 75. I really really like Sword of War and Peace against Zoo. Elspeth was always good for me. She either got imprinted on a Mox or just won me the game every single time I had her.

[Star|Scream]

I think Vial builds are junk right now, there's no reason not be running Bitterblossom as it's just THAT good.

Vindicate is at least a 3x in any build as it gives you real answers to things you would just lose to otherwise.

In other news: I placed 15th in Baltimore last night out of 400+ people. My list can be found here http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=39285

I had no time to play test between Charlotte and the Invitational nor between the Invitational and Baltimore and wasn't happy with my performance at the Invitational, so I took Joe Bernel's list with zero testing. There are definitely some things I would change. I would play a 3rd StP in the main and a 4th in the board, if not main. Sword of Body and Mind NEEDS to be in the 75. I really really like Sword of War and Peace against Zoo. Elspeth was always good for me. She either got imprinted on a Mox or just won me the game every single time I had her.


Congrats on the finish, Tim!

[Richard Cheese]

Nice finish Tim!

That deck looks different every time you play it, yet you keep putting up some nice finishes. I hate to say it, but I think you might be good at Magic.

[Leto]

Nice finish Tim!

That deck looks different every time you play it, yet you keep putting up some nice finishes. I hate to say it, but I think you might be good at Magic.

Scary Idea ;)

Back to the Deck, some things I would like to discuss
-Innocent Blood for Edict (Synergie with BB, 1 Mana less...)
-How plays Manriki-Gusari out, is it worth its boardingplace?
-Is the Toolbox worth it?


And gratz Tim =)

[Rizso]

Scary Idea ;)

Back to the Deck, some things I would like to discuss
-Innocent Blood for Edict (Synergie with BB, 1 Mana less...)
-How plays Manriki-Gusari out, is it worth its boardingplace?
-Is the Toolbox worth it?


And gratz Tim =)

IMO no to innocent blood. There isnt really any synergy with bitterblossom. Its not even strictly better then any other edict. 1 mana is somewhat a drawback when it runs into mistep compared to edict thats instant as well.

Manriki-gusari is awesome especially combined with bitterblossom. Its less useful against us as we are running alot more removal then most decks do. Its really great against the blue stoneforge decks, wich has more counters then removal.

I for one dont run any enlightened tutor board anymore. Still running 3 copies perish in the board :P

GZ tim for an other SCG legacy open finish.

[Tim the Enchanter]

Scary Idea ;)

Back to the Deck, some things I would like to discuss
-Innocent Blood for Edict (Synergie with BB, 1 Mana less...)
-How plays Manriki-Gusari out, is it worth its boardingplace?
-Is the Toolbox worth it?


And gratz Tim =)

"Good" might be pushing it. I'd say I'm OK at Magic, although my only match losses, both 0-2, I got pretty unlucky both games.

Innocent Blood is bad. You generally really want all the Faerie tokens you can get. It's not an instant, and like Rizso said, it gets countered by Mental Misstep.

Manriki-gusari is really good. 1/3 of my opponents were playing SFM so it was really handy... when I remembered to grab it lol.

I still like E Tutor a lot. The board needs some work, but like I said I didn't get to test the build at all before I registered the list. I played one game with it while we were waiting for the players meeting!

Thanks for the cg's everybody.

[Djz05]

First time i tried this deck at scg balt, and was quite happy with my 3-3-1 result. Could have won the other 2 losses i had if not for simple misplays like missing a counter on vial in 1 game and not vindicating an opponents only white source at 2 lands when i knew he didnt have any other lands or 1 drops in hand. Still it was a lot of fun.

Im certainly going to try this deck out some more while until my friends need the cards back for their own decks.

[Rizso]

I have been playing 1 Blinkmoth Nexus, been quite impressed by the little bugger even thinking of increasing the number to 2 or more. Geting in with thoes powerful sword or jitte triggers.

[BlindMage]

4 Marsh Flats
1 Polluted Delta
4 Scrubland
5 Swamp
3 Fetid Heath
3 Wasteland
3 Chrome Mox

1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Duress
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

3 Mother of Runes
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Mirran Crusader

SB:
3 Mental Misstep
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Gerrard's Verdict
1 Engineered Plague
1 Perish
1 Darkblast
1 Serenity
1 Phyrexian Unlife
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Tidehollow Sculler


That's the first DGA list I've seen in a while that really looks like fun to play. I have to admit, though, I'm confused by some of your choices. Do you think that you could explain what's up with the singleton SDT in the main with no way to search for it? Has not having a basic Plains caused any trouble for you? I'd have a hard time resisting the temptation to cut a Fetid Heath for a basic Plains.

You said that you found IoK to be the best discard spell. Does that mean you'd reconsider the 2/3 split with Duress?

You mentioned that some of your SB cards didn't see any action in the tourny you played. Hypothetically, in what situation would you bring in, say, Tidehollow Sculler or Gerrard's Verdict? Also, is 1 Enlightened Tutor really enough?

For a potentially more involved question: My meta has a lot of Reanimator and NO-Show/Pro Bant, what would you recommend siding against those decks, or would you not recommend playing DGA at all?

[Tacosnape]

That's the first DGA list I've seen in a while that really looks like fun to play. I have to admit, though, I'm confused by some of your choices. Do you think that you could explain what's up with the singleton SDT in the main with no way to search for it? Has not having a basic Plains caused any trouble for you? I'd have a hard time resisting the temptation to cut a Fetid Heath for a basic Plains.

You said that you found IoK to be the best discard spell. Does that mean you'd reconsider the 2/3 split with Duress?

You mentioned that some of your SB cards didn't see any action in the tourny you played. Hypothetically, in what situation would you bring in, say, Tidehollow Sculler or Gerrard's Verdict? Also, is 1 Enlightened Tutor really enough?

For a potentially more involved question: My meta has a lot of Reanimator and NO-Show/Pro Bant, what would you recommend siding against those decks, or would you not recommend playing DGA at all?

All good questions. Let me do my best to answer them.

1. Singleton SDT. The purpose was that I just didn't really have room for a second one in the build I was testing. I've since made room for and added a second one, as I tended to win every game I stuck a Top.

2. I haven't missed a Plains ever. The few times I ran it, it actually got in the way with functional Gatekeeper of Malakir stuff. Between Duals, Chrome Mox, and Fetid Heath, I can get white when I need it usually.

3. Yes. I moved a couple Duress to board. I replaced the two Duress with a fourth IoK and a second Top.

4. One Enlightened Tutor is enough. All it does is let me play essentially two copies of all my random SB cards. I don't really like losing the card off of it all that often, and in matchups where card count matters heavily, I won't bring it in. I bring in Gerrard's Verdict in any matchup where card count matters more than anything and any match where life total matters more than anything, as well as against a few slower combo decks where I have a ton of dead cards. I'd bring in Tidehollow Sculler in any matchup where I didn't anticipate him getting removed easily (Any combo matchup, Mud, possibly even Merfolk.)

5. I'd play the hell out of DGA against those decks. Reanimator's a cakewalk. Pack yard hate and pack Mental Missteps, and between all your disruption and your yard hate pieces, as well as the fact that you can remove any of their guys between Gatekeeper and STP, I'd take this matchup all day long. Against NO-Show/Pro Bant, You just have to cope with the fact that they're quicker than you are and can just tempo crush you, and that in the early game they can out card quality you with cantrips. Mental Misstep's a monster due to their limited removal and lack of true card draw, and Hymn gets there. Perish will save your ass in this battle as well, and if your metagame is loaded with this matchup, I'd pack anywhere from two to three. Gatekeeper of Malakir's a beast, too.

[Rizso]

Been disliking the single plain as well.

[Anthem]

Hey guys, I'm looking for a little more feedback on my list please:


Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Vampire Hexmage

Spells
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Grim Discovery
4 Mental Misstep
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vindicate

Artifacts
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands
2 Dark Depths
4 Marsh Flats
4 Plains
2 Scrubland
5 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland

SB:
4 Aether Vial
4 Withered Wretch
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Vindicate
1 Sword of War and Peace

I only need one Urborg, right? Is Grim Discovery at a good number (I want to recover from Wasteland or Discard specifically)? Thanks

[KobeBryan]

Hey guys, I'm looking for a little more feedback on my list please:


Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Vampire Hexmage

Spells
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Grim Discovery
4 Mental Misstep
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vindicate

Artifacts
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands
2 Dark Depths
4 Marsh Flats
4 Plains
2 Scrubland
5 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland

SB:
4 Aether Vial
4 Withered Wretch
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Vindicate
1 Sword of War and Peace

I only need one Urborg, right? Is Grim Discovery at a good number (I want to recover from Wasteland or Discard specifically)? Thanks

First, fuck the grim discovery and mental missteps. Run more threats.

second, fuck the dark depths combo. its 6 cards you are wasting for more threats.

Third, run an enlightened tutor SB. You will love it.

[Rizso]

Hey guys, I'm looking for a little more feedback on my list please:


Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Vampire Hexmage

Spells
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Grim Discovery
4 Mental Misstep
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vindicate

Artifacts
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands
2 Dark Depths
4 Marsh Flats
4 Plains
2 Scrubland
5 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland

SB:
4 Aether Vial
4 Withered Wretch
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Vindicate
1 Sword of War and Peace

I only need one Urborg, right? Is Grim Discovery at a good number (I want to recover from Wasteland or Discard specifically)? Thanks

I see what you are trying to pull here. But imo Depths combo isnt really worth it in legacy atm. Depths deludes your mana base and Hexmax is quite underwhelming creature by itself. Imo your version wants to do to many things instead of 1 or 2 things really well. Also the board looks really untuned. Sure depths combo might get some free wins but it will certain give looses as well when playing with 2/1 first strikers for 2 mana in format with lot more powerful 2 drops. If really wanting to play depths I dont think deadguy shell is the right one.

You either play vials in main or dont play them at all. Same with the hymns I feel you are wasting your sideboard on cards that should either be main or left out. Withered Wretch is an interesting choice for anti-Graveyard but 4of in the board seem to many and should probly be splited with other anti GY cards or other cards.

[lilrikki2000]

do yall find thoughtseize necessary? With all the life loss in the deck, seems like others may be used. I really like IOk, solves many of our problems. Just cant touch NOm hive mind, batterskull (obv we can kill stoneforge) and FOW, but that is mainly it in the competitive scene, yes occasionally others may be played, but those seem like the main. I play with 2 cabals also

What is the right number of enlightened tutors to run when using the package?

What is the right number of scullers? not aether vial version

Do yall really like chrome mox as a three of? I havent played with the mox, but it just seems underwhelming

and how good is mirran crusader md? I like him alot personally, but ww can be hard to get, esp if playing malakir

How is revoker for yall?

Sensei's divining top is amazing, but is it worth it, 1 or 2 of?

path to exile...when are you really wanting this? ive heard vs zoo, but I dont like giving them land. yes, they run at least 1 basic

and im guessing, there is no love for misstep. online, it seems great. lots of uw, zoo, elves, aether vial and stp

[bfeingersh]

Re: The above post.

I'm thinking about cutting down my Thoughtseizes into Inquisitions. Maybe a 2-2 split rather than 4-0.

I don't know, I haven't run E Tutors in my board. I would say 2 is a solid number.

I played 2 Scullers this week rather than Crusaders and they were great.

Moxen are good when they allow a turn 1 Bob or SFM, but I find myself boarding them out kind of frequently, like in the mirror or against Hymn decks.

Build dependent.

Underwhelming. I swapped them for Needles as I frequently want to name lands (Factory, Ruins, etc.).

2-of, maybe even 3. It breaks the mirror or any slower matchup.

Maybe in the board as a 5th Swords.

I have never felt like I really needed a Misstep, but it might be worth trying. But I guess that could be said for any deck.

[Anthem]

Re: Rizso

Thanks for your comments. One question: Can you explain a little how the list tries to do too many things rather than 1 or 2? In the design I was going for the deck playing like Deadguy (Disruption, Critical creatures, Equipment), and every once in a while quickly getting the 20/20 combo-style. Or getting it to end a late-game stalemate.

I definitely agree that Hexmage is underwhelming compared to other options. There have been some shining moments such as nuking Jace/Elspeth, turning off Bridge from Below, or First Strike shenanigans with Jitte, but unless there's also a DD in my hand I'd much rather see Confidant, Stoneforge, or even Mom as a tide turner.

About misstep:

Misstep is certainly not a staple, but I honestly don't see why the card is hated on so much in Deadguy. In a deck where every creature you play has to die, especially the ones that give card advantage, I'd pay 2 life and a card to get rid of a StP or Lightning Bolt all day. As far as the cost, Deadguy would pay 2 life for discard without batting an eye, so I don't see why paying 2 life to counter the two most used spot removals (among considerably more things) causes controversy at all.

[Rizso]

do yall find thoughtseize necessary? With all the life loss in the deck, seems like others may be used. I really like IOk, solves many of our problems. Just cant touch NOm hive mind, batterskull (obv we can kill stoneforge) and FOW, but that is mainly it in the competitive scene, yes occasionally others may be played, but those seem like the main. I play with 2 cabals also

What is the right number of enlightened tutors to run when using the package?

What is the right number of scullers? not aether vial version

Do yall really like chrome mox as a three of? I havent played with the mox, but it just seems underwhelming

and how good is mirran crusader md? I like him alot personally, but ww can be hard to get, esp if playing malakir

How is revoker for yall?

Sensei's divining top is amazing, but is it worth it, 1 or 2 of?

path to exile...when are you really wanting this? ive heard vs zoo, but I dont like giving them land. yes, they run at least 1 basic

and im guessing, there is no love for misstep. online, it seems great. lots of uw, zoo, elves, aether vial and stp

I personally run 4 thoughtseizes 2 Cabal Therapy, 2 Scullers with 2 scullers 1 therapy in the board. I run the Mox version, I feel 3 is the right number.

I dont run any Mirran Crusaders anymore I run with Bitterblossom instead.

I used to run revoker in the vial version but not anymore. I dont run a Top it encourage unnecessary fetch lands we imo dont really need for a 2 colored deck.

As for path to exile, running swords, gatekeeper and vindicate I dont really see the reason to run Path as well.
As for Mental Misstep i think its quite good but not for thoes reasons you listed. Without counters I dont really care about AEther Vial much and would much rather have Discard or removal against thoes decks.

[Tacosnape]

I actually like Mental Misstep for a different reason. It helps you get around the fact that Discard's so subpar in this format on the draw. It gives you interaction and a chance to not just be run over by faster, more aggressive decks.

That said, it's a lot better in some matchups than others. So it lurks in my sideboard.

[Einherjer]

Time for a new way of interpreting DGA, what you think?

Manabase
4 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
2 Fetid Heath
3 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Maze of Ith
1 Tower of the Magistrate

Creatures
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
2 Jotun Grunt
1 Mirran Crusader

Artefacts
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Umezawa´s Jitte
1 Batterskull

Enchantment
4 Bitterblossom

Discard
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Duress

Removal
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
2 Ghastly Demise

Planeswalker
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant


This version is way more controllike than the others but it still works very well. What you think buds?

[CorpT]

2 Jotun Grunt

Still?

[Leto]

still searching the "new" in the list, besides the two Utility-Lands that you can't tutor

[Rizso]

Time for a new way of interpreting DGA, what you think?

Manabase
4 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
2 Fetid Heath
3 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Maze of Ith
1 Tower of the Magistrate

Creatures
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
2 Jotun Grunt
1 Mirran Crusader

Artefacts
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Umezawa´s Jitte
1 Batterskull

Enchantment
4 Bitterblossom

Discard
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Duress

Removal
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
2 Ghastly Demise

Planeswalker
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant


This version is way more controllike than the others but it still works very well. What you think buds?

Imo your are deluting the mana base with lands you cant fetch up. Also IMO the Gusari equipment is a stronger way to deal with equipments then the tower, if Would be running knight of the Reliquary I would be testing the Tower.

[CorpT]

Imo your are deluding the mana base with lands you cant fetch up. Also IMO the Gusari equipment is a stronger way to deal with equipments then the tower, if Would be running knight of the Reliquary I would be testing the Tower.

It's diluting, not deluding. Sorry, it's been bugging me.

[Anthem]

Still?

At two-of, and considering the amount of discard and fetches he runs (let alone SOBAM) I think Jotun Grunt is a fine choice. This is the most approprite list for him I've seen, honestly.

With all the token makers, I'm curious why the deck isn't running Cabal Therapy at 2 or 3 tops.

I also don't see what the new twist is.

[Tacosnape]

Got locals tonight, with the following list:

4 Marsh Flats
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
4 Swamp
3 Fetid Heath
3 Wasteland

3 Chrome Mox
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

3 Mother of Runes
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Mirran Crusader

SB:
3 Mental Misstep
3 Serenity
2 Duress
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Engineered Plague
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Darkblast
1 Tidehollow Sculler

Round 1 - Mark with some kind of Red Urzatron deck. (2-0)
Never really figured out what this was. Game 1 a Hymn to Tourach and a couple Vindicates leave him landlocked the whole game. Game 2 a barrage of Vindicates and Wastelands do most of the same.

Round 2 - Lucas with UW Stoneblade (2-0)
Game one he mulls to six, I Hymn turn one, stick a Confidant. I cruise to victory. Game two I draw out a Force with a fast Stoneforge Mystic, Hymn his face off, and stick guys.

Round 3 - Nick with MajorMUD (2-0, but his list is incredible)
I don't remember game one terribly well, but I remember winning off the back of a very solid Hymn and some hot Wasteland action after STP'ing a turn one Copper Gnomes (God, that card is so scary.) Game two he manages to stick a Spellskite, a Metalworker, and a Blightsteel Colossus. I look at my STP with a frowny face, drop a Stoneforge and a Serenity, and pass. Stoneforge chumps Blightsteel Colossus like a grandmaster, I go to 9 poison counters, Serenity blows up the board, I STP Blightsteel. He gets another Spellskite and a Worker down a couple turns later, and I've seen a Wurmcoil in his hand, but I manage to Confidant into Vindicate on Spellskite, STP on Worker, Wasteland on Ancient Tomb, and seal his fate.

Round 4 - Jason w/ Cephalid Breakfast (2-0)
I thank god he managed to beat his brother playing Belcher in round 3, because I'd much rather face this. Game one involves a turn one Confidant, turn two Hymn, then Inquisitions and Vindicates and STP backup in hand. Game two I misboard a little but get a god hand of a turn one Tidehollow, which drew Force, and a turn two Phyrexian Revoker on Nomads En-Kor, who then got stuck behind a Meddling Mage on Swords to Plowshares. As I had no more threats, I didn't swing. I eventually got Confidants going, proceeded to hit all my Vindicates, and nearly died if not for the fact that I managed to kill the Mage with Darkblast (Once during upkeep, once after dredging), Swords one of my own Confidants, and barely stabilize. Stoneforge Mystic into Umezawa's Jitte sealed it.

Semifinals - Patrick w/ Affinity. (2-0)
Game one he mulligans to six, explodes, but his board isn't terrifying - just Vault Skirges and Memnites. I Inquisition his one card and see a Dispatch, Bizarre. He continues to make more small guys, and I drop Mirran Crusader with Jitte in hand. He draws, smacks me, and passes with one card in hand and the mana to cast anything on earth. I figure out this is another Dispatch, so I hold on Jitte/Equip/Swing to not die horribly. I Gatekeeper him instead, getting a Memnite, and swing with Mirran which surprisingly baits out the Dispatch. I then Jitte up the Gatekeeper and eat some guys, then drop some other random guy to finish the job.
Game two I STP what would have been an enormous Ornithopter with a Cranial on turn two, then untap and drop Serenity like a champion. Serenity gets eaten by Disenchant. Blink, Blink. Not good. However, I have a Mirran Crusader in hand at this point, and my next card on top is my Jitte. Mirran sticks, then Mirran picks up Jitte and demonstrates how well she outraces formats.

Then I split the finals with Cephalid Breakfast, trade for some Commander stuff, and go get food.

Observations for the day:

1. Duress was useless tonight. Completely and utterly useless. Mental Missteps and disruptive 2-drops were far better. I will probably drop the two for another Surgical Extraction and some other random board card.

2. Hymn to Tourach, on the other hand, was completely and utterly nuts. Savaged opponents constantly.

3. Different cards shone tonight than previously. Mother of Runes, for example, sucked all night. But Mirran Crusader pulled her weight the entire tournament.

4. I drew an ungodly number of Wastelands for only running three in the deck. No idea why.

5. Phyrexian Revoker is better than I think it is.

[Al-ucard]

Taco I have some questions:
1.-Why Fetid Heath? it's so useful?
2.-Since you think that hymn to tourach its so savage, why not put 2 gerrard's verdicts MD?
3.-Since Mom sucked all day, why not put instead bitterblossom?

I'm thinking of something like this:

20 Lands
4 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
5 Swamp
1 Plains

13 Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
2 Mirran Crusader

28 Others
4 Hymn to tourach
2 Gerrard's Verdict
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Swords to plowshares
3 Vindicate
3 Chrome Mox
3 Bitterblossom
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Yes, there are 61 cards but I don't know what to quit...

[Hopo]

1.-Why Fetid Heath? it's so useful?

I believe it is taken from a SCG list some tournaments ago. It lets you lead with a plains and still have two black mana in your second turn. Or vice versa, obviously. No idea if it's actually worth it, though.

[Leto]

on Fetid Heath, I played it also the last Tourney I went, and it is really good at fixing the first Turns, mainly for Hymn, Blossom and Gatekeeper. In the right list it even enables Obliterator

[Rizso]

Fetid Heath is really awesome when running Gatekeeper and Mirran Crusader in the same list. It means you can go swamp swamp/plains then heath to play either crusader or the gatekeeper without opening you for wastelands before use it. It really makes the mana base alot better.

[Einherjer]

ok Taco, you surprised all of us with your amaaaaaaaazing great games :) And even though my list is kinda different - look above - and youre just too pro to be questioned.......

...
...

Do you like Chrome mox.... honestly?
I proxed it cause i didnt want to buy it...and im kinda glad to be honest....
Idk maybe im mistaken.

Godspeed

[Leto]

would be nice, if you would comment your list from above a bit more, when you post it here

[Tacosnape]

Taco I have some questions:
1.-Why Fetid Heath? it's so useful?
2.-Since you think that hymn to tourach its so savage, why not put 2 gerrard's verdicts MD?
3.-Since Mom sucked all day, why not put instead bitterblossom?

1. Fetid Heath is what makes Mirran Crusader playable in a primarily black deck. It lets you develop your first two pieces of mana as basic swamps (Or Swamp/Chrome) if necessary and if you fear a Wasteland, then drop the Heath and play something that costs double white. I've liked it a lot in general. Three feels heavy, but not as light as just two feels, so either way.
2. Gerrard's Verdict won't ever do what Hymn did for me all day, and just occasionally hit a combination of two cards the opponent can't recover from. I am normally the king of blanking on Hymns and leaving the opponent with the perfect combination of cards to recover. Not that day. My Hymns were lucky as shit.
3. I just don't like the card. I get that it's amazing and probably belongs in the deck, and if my metagame was more control based, sure. But the only matchup I'd have really wanted to see it in all day was against Stoneblade, where I could just drop it and spend the rest of my resources disrupting stuff. It's possible at some point I'll experiment with a pair, but I find it too slow in most aggro matchups where my life total's already a premium because I don't stabilize all that quickly from a slow start, and against combo it's only a seven-turn clock, which means I'll probably board it out anyway.

Also, from your list, my first cut would be Gerrard's Verdict.


Do you like Chrome mox.... honestly?
I proxed it cause i didnt want to buy it...and im kinda glad to be honest....
Idk maybe im mistaken.

I don't -love- Chrome Mox, but I pick it over the two other alternatives, which are as follows:
1. Dark Ritual
2. Not having any mana acceleration and just getting run over by fast decks when I lose the die roll.

Without mana acceleration, Deadguy has a tendency to be terrible on the draw. Merfolk and Zoo just steamroll me if they get a decent hand. Throwing discard at Zoo isn't all that wonderful when their facebeaters are already on the board, and eating it to a well-timed Daze on your Gatekeeper/Crusader is just the blows.

Chrome Mox lets me fight back. I can out card-advantage either one of those decks. I'm willing to spend the card early on to stabilize faster.

It's worth noting that I do occasionally sneak a Chrome out on the play. They're much much better on the draw.

[eq.firemind]

I don't -love- Chrome Mox, but I pick it over the two other alternatives, which are as follows:
1. Dark Ritual
2. Not having any mana acceleration and just getting run over by fast decks when I lose the die roll.

Without mana acceleration, Deadguy has a tendency to be terrible on the draw. Merfolk and Zoo just steamroll me if they get a decent hand. Throwing discard at Zoo isn't all that wonderful when their facebeaters are already on the board, and eating it to a well-timed Daze on your Gatekeeper/Crusader is just the blows.

Chrome Mox lets me fight back. I can out card-advantage either one of those decks. I'm willing to spend the card early on to stabilize faster.

It's worth noting that I do occasionally sneak a Chrome out on the play. They're much much better on the draw.
I'll try Mental Misstep maindeck in that spot. I guess countering turn 1 Nacatl (Zoo) or Vial(Fish) worth 2 life you pay for it. Misstep their 1-drop, pick another fast card with discard and they suddenly are not so fast. Also, Misstep have (little) more value in late game.

[Rizso]

I'll try Mental Misstep maindeck in that spot. I guess countering turn 1 Nacatl (Zoo) or Vial(Fish) worth 2 life you pay for it. Misstep their 1-drop, pick another fast card with discard and they suddenly are not so fast. Also, Misstep have (little) more value in late game.

I dont really find either Vial or Nacatl a reason to have the missteps main. TBH I dont even care about the vials much as the deck is without counters anyway and we have discard spells to reduce their hands to nothing. IMO late game Missteps just gets worse as it will do nothing against creatures allready in play, wont be counter the more powerful spells at 2 or more CC and we cant shuffle them away with either jace or brainstorms. Reason to ever consider Missteps is imo only for protecting active bob / stoneforge or to have extra disrupt against combo, hiting their brainstorms, ponders and rituals.

You arent gonna win against goblins with missteping their vials but you might be winning when missteping brainstorm in responce to any discard spells or missteping their sword / bolt onto your Stoneforge / Dark Confidant.

The deck runs anywhere from 8- 12 removal and more after board i rather use thoes removal against thoes creatures then wasting a misstep that would be better of used to force bob and stoneforge to get active.

I wouldnt board in misstep with this deck against goblins or merfolk. Do you really care about the vials or goblin lackey / Curse Catcher that much that you want to counter it and having a pretty deadcard against anything that is stronger instead of just killing it with vindicate, swords or Gatekeeper etc etc?

IMO Misstep isnt a maindeckable Card for this deck, I think its a fine sideboard card against heavy 1CC removal decks or combo.

[Neoezekiel]

4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Mirran Crusader
4 Dark Confidant

4 Aether Vial

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Batterskull
1 Manriki-Gusari

2 Chains of Mephistopheles

4 Thoughtseize
3 Swords to Plowshares

4 Scrubland
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
1 Karakas
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Windswept Heath
2 Plains
2 Swamp


SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Aura of Silence
SB: 2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Yixlid Jailer
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Perish

This is what I'm running at the moment, Looking for any suggestions that the community may have to offer.

I was wondering why so few people are using Chains of Mephistopheles, in testing it has done wonders for my combo / control match-ups.

[Richard Cheese]

I can see Chains being pretty good in those situations, although it seems like it might be better in the board since you can grab it with Tutor. Doesn't really help aggro matchups at all. I think the main reasons why it doesn't see much play are cost, and just how convoluted the wording is.

[Anthem]

I usually run some 10-card collection of Hymn/Duress/IoK, which with Revoker makes my Combo/Control matchups just fine. I think a lot of Deadguy players do this. Chains is a nice alternative, though.

I see a lot of people running Mirran Crusader. I've been having a debate between him and Stillmoon Cavalier for that spot. Stillmoon has better protections IMO (though Mom can't save him from red removal), can fly or first strike, and is easier on the mana. Crusader doublestrikes (great with Jitte) and being able to slide past green fatties (usually the biggest creatures) is helpful. What do you guys think?

[Einherjer]

I vote for Mirran Crusader, today ive been fighting a GW aggro, and yeah after a bit of gaming I was at 10 and he at 12, i got jitte with 2 charges and he got 2 KotR, i draw and get Mirran Crusader, and StP one of his Knights, then the other Knight attacks, i block, then i equip Jitte and swing for 12 AT ONCE

so i vote for him :)

Farewell

[Neoezekiel]

I usually run some 10-card collection of Hymn/Duress/IoK, which with Revoker makes my Combo/Control matchups just fine. I think a lot of Deadguy players do this. Chains is a nice alternative, though.

I see a lot of people running Mirran Crusader. I've been having a debate between him and Stillmoon Cavalier for that spot. Stillmoon has better protections IMO (though Mom can't save him from red removal), can fly or first strike, and is easier on the mana. Crusader doublestrikes (great with Jitte) and being able to slide past green fatties (usually the biggest creatures) is helpful. What do you guys think?

I see your argument with Stillmoon, one of my teammates swears by him, but he really doesn't fit the deck IMHO. I feel his lack of synergy with mom and the fact that he's a mana sink, just doesn't fit well in the play style of the deck. This is why I'm running 3x Mirran Crusader.

I also agree that the discard package needs a little work, I would like to keep the Chains in the main deck because of the shear amount of disruption it causes (Screw You Brainstorm!) and its synergy with BOB. That being said I would like to work in a couple of hymns but im just not sure what to cut / shuffle to the board.

Part of the problem I have is that my local meta is a little bit of everything, which is why my board is all over the place. Also there are A LOT of players here trying to break into legacy by porting their standard / extended decks especially all those silly caw-blade players, So I would like to keep the Manriki-Gusari in.

I appreciate the help so far and all future contributions.

[from Cairo]

SB:
3 Mental Misstep
3 Serenity
2 Duress
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Engineered Plague
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Darkblast
1 Tidehollow Sculler

1. Duress was useless tonight. Completely and utterly useless. Mental Missteps and disruptive 2-drops were far better. I will probably drop the two for another Surgical Extraction and some other random board card.


I really like your build/board. Did you have a thought on what the 2nd Duress would become? Have you considered/tried Phyrexian Metamorph in your E. Tutor toolbox?

[Tim the Enchanter]

According to the numbers that the Hatfield's posted in their Too Much Information article today, Zoo and Dredge are by far our worst match ups. I'm personally 1-3 against Zoo, although those 3 losses were to Pat Cox who went on to win that Invitational, Patrick Sullivan, who T8ed the Invitational, and Jesse Hatfield. In each of those I got unlucky (Mulliganned to 3 with no land/ never drew a second white source out of 7 lands!) or kept a shaky 6, in the last game of the match. I've only played Dredge once, in Charlotte with a very different list, so I can't speak on the MU.

I know everyone else has a problem with Zoo too, so what are some things we can do about it? Obviously Perish is decent against them and Ghostly Prison is pretty solid as well, plus it beats Dredge. What are some other options?

Chalice of the Void wrecks Zoo, but if you don't get it out early it's probably too late, plus we run a bunch of 1 drops ourselves and it's a fairly narrow answer. It also helps against ANT and Burn, but so does discard.

Sword of War and Peace has done pretty well for me, as long as you actually get to equip it to something, although the green creatures are definitely the more threatening ones.
__________________

[Richard Cheese]

As someone that's played a fair bit with both Deadguy and Zoo, I never found the matchup to be very good. Discard is generally crap against them, their removal hits every one of your creatures, and their guys are bigger than yours. Zoo really only cares about a few things:

Fatties
Regenerators
Shroud
Combo

I guess start with that. There's bound to be some options in there that can shore up that matchup a little bit without diluting the deck. Batterskull is a fairly obvious one.

[Rizso]

I think Timely Reinforcement fits pretty good in theory against zoo. By the time you can play it they will have more life and creatures then you and gain much needed time to grind them out with card advantech. However its a just a theory how it works for real I havent tried out yet.

I do think a strong zoo board is important.

[Zamussels]

I played only one match against Zoo. I drew a lot of Gatekeepers of Malakir and Hymns to Tourach, and won very easily. I did have one Perish in the SB but I don't know if it's that good against them.

[NathanS2k]

I agree....Zoo is a pretty hard MU, I bring in Phyrexian Crusader from my SB against it. Should stand up to anything they bring it, except their Goyf.

[funyun45]

A few points I'd like to make.

I haven't been playing DA for very long, but I have been playing MBAC for quite a while and I think a lot of the cards that are great in that deck that have been debated here port very well to DA.

Mental Misstep: This card should be an auto 4-of. Before I put this card into MBAC, being on the draw was often an uphill battle against aggressive decks. After putting in MMisstep, I found it was exactly the tempo card I always wanted. The exact same thing applies in DA. If you're looking for tempo, it's miles (read: miles) better than Mox: there's no card disadvantage, it straight up stops backbreaking turn 1 plays rather than just tries to race against them, and is, unlike what some people have claimed in this thread, a great mid-to-late game draw. Being able to counter the best removal in the format is always good when you run creatures like SFM and Confidant. The best opening hand this deck can have has two spells in particular in it above all others: SFM and a MMisstep to protect it.

Phyrexian Revoker: This creature is so flexible and powerful it's not even funny. After a LOT of playtesting with MBAC, I am very convinced this creature has a place in that deck, and the same goes for DA. He stops so many threats in Legacy, and on top of that he's got a solid body. A very undervalued creature.

My decklist, which is semi-budget (primarily in land base):

// Lands (22)
Swamp (7)
Plains (1)
Marsh Flats (4)
Godless Shrine (2)
Caves of Koilos (4)
Wasteland (4)

// 0 cc (4)
Mental Misstep (4)

// 1 cc (8)
Inquisition of Kozilek (4)
Swords To Plowshares (4)

// 2 cc (20)
Dark Confidant (4)
Phyrexian Revoker (3)
Stoneforge Mystic (4)
Bitterblossom (4)
Hymn To Tourach (4)
Umezawa's Jitte (1)

// 3 cc (5)
Vampire Nighthawk (4)
Sword of Fire & Ice (1)

// 5 cc (1)
Batterskull (1)

// Sideboard (15)
Phyrexian Revoker (1)
Engineered Plague (4)
Leyline of the Void (4)
Manriki-Gusari (1)
Disenchant (4)
something else, possibly another Sword (1)

The sideboard is not fully tested yet. I don't run Vindicate because, though it is optimally included in the deck, I think its price is not worth its benefits. Further testing may lead to Mom being included; that's an open question right now.

[Einherjer]

How to beat zoo? Well thats not that hard, atleast for my deck.
Imagine me doing this first turn: Plains, Chrome Mox, imprint Duress, SFM at Batterskull go. T2 play Batterskull and kill his creature with a StP... And what is Zoo going to do now? Once I started, and played a Hymn T1 and got his both Lands :) That was an easy cheesy thing after that :)

And...Mental Misstep. Ye it sounds good, but i dont have 4 Slots for this...honestly

Greetings

[NathanS2k]

How to beat zoo? Well thats not that hard, atleast for my deck.
Imagine me doing this first turn: Plains, Chrome Mox, imprint Duress, SFM at Batterskull go. T2 play Batterskull and kill his creature with a StP... And what is Zoo going to do now? Once I started, and played a Hymn T1 and got his both Lands :) That was an easy cheesy thing after that :)


Easier said than done....on their turn, they can easily get rid of SFM with any of their removal spell. Then Batterskull would be stuck in your hand till T4 to hard cast it. By then, you're pretty much close to dead since they have a fast clock. Not to mention Qasali can easily deal with Batterskull.

[eq.firemind]

Easier said than done....on their turn, they can easily get rid of SFM with any of their removal spell. Then Batterskull would be stuck in your hand till T4 to hard cast it. By then, you're pretty much close to dead since they have a fast clock. Not to mention Qasali can easily deal with Batterskull.
In testing I actually won plenty of postboard games versus Zoo with early Mystic => Batterskull, removal into Mystic (I use Tacosnape's list). When you play Mystic => Batterskull early, they suddenly are forced to answer Mystic (or it'll ruin their whole gameplan) instead of putting pressure on you. The best time for Zoo to realize their gameplan is first few turns. Not only you distract their gameplan, but you did it in the very right moment.

[funyun45]

How to beat zoo? Well thats not that hard, atleast for my deck.
Imagine me doing this first turn: Plains, Chrome Mox, imprint Duress, SFM at Batterskull go. T2 play Batterskull and kill his creature with a StP... And what is Zoo going to do now? Once I started, and played a Hymn T1 and got his both Lands :) That was an easy cheesy thing after that :)

And...Mental Misstep. Ye it sounds good, but i dont have 4 Slots for this...honestly

Greetings

As Nathan said, that long series of events is easier said than done; you're assuming an optimal draw. And I still think that optimal draw is far worse than a MMisstep draw. -4 Mox. Those are your slots.

[eq.firemind]

I run 3 MD Moxes and sided in 3 Missteps versus Zoo. There were games where he failed to stick any beater before I hardcasted Batterskull. Will try to fit some Missteps into MD.
As a general thought, something around 5 or 6 I-don't-suck-on-draw cards should be in our 75.

[Einherjer]

I took a closer look to my deck and found 2 slots i dont actually must use - what about using Mental Misstep in them? are 2 slots enough?

[bokwinkle]

Perish is absolutely necessary against Zoo - Hierarchs, Nacatls, Pridemages, Goyfs, and possibly Knight of the Reliquary (in big zoo decks) are all threats that we have to answer in this matchup. Really this only leaves steppe lynx, Grim Lavamancer, Stoneforge Mystic and a couple of other rogue dudes as threats to be dealt with. If you see Lavamancer and stoneforge mystic in game one...then I probably wouldn't bother with Perish, but it's still worth considering.

All of their creatures and undercosted and aggressive. All of our creatures are generally overcosted and passive, we're slower and can't consistently protect our creatures.

Bottom line is this - zoo runs up to 12 removal spells plus lavamancer...and maybe more out of the board - they will always have at least one removal spell in the opening hand. So even if you somehow manage a turn 1 stoneforge for batterskull on the go you will probably be playing with a 4 card hand - and one of those cards will be an unplayable equipment and another will be land....in otherwords you will probably loose. Stoneforge into batterskull is very disruptable for a zoo player that's smart enough to know that he needs removal in his opening hand against DGA for either Stoneforge or Bob.

The matchup is extremely poor for us without ways to gain card advantage that isn't creature based - Perish and Hymn to Tourach are probably the most common cards in this deck that can help, but the reality is that Misstep is probably needed to keep them from running away with the game in the first 3 turns. And more removal out of the board will probably be required to keep lavamancer off the table. Also, if you play Mom and can get her to stick early you should do fairly well, but that's not easy either.

Personally I've been having pretty even matches against zoo because I play abyssal persecutor and they have a hell of time dealing with it after I take their path's with discard - and I occaisionally blow them out with a correctly named Cabal Therapy...but that's another story. Plus I play 4 more removal spells maindeck (in the form of gatekeepers) that double as blockers. But even this does not gaurentee wins. It's a bad matchup, if you have a lot of zoo in your meta just be prepared to have some bad days, or hope for some serious luck.

[Einherjer]

Ive been cruising this thread for ages, and from the begining I was wondering why this thread doesnt have a primer. So I decided to write one. Dear Moderators, if you judge this primer to be good enough to be on page 1, move it to there. Thanks!

Introduction:Lets start off with the question: "What is Deadguy Ale?"
First of all its an Controldeck. Some would say its and Aggro-Controldeck. Its build in the colors black and white.
So thats the basics. In facts its one of the sliperiest decks, because there is not, unlike in decks like Zoo or GW for example, a list to beat or just a perfect lists. You can play this deck very differently. But thats jus tthe introduction.

The basics:


Lands: What to start with when building a deck? Yeah, its the manabase.
What is a musthave at the manabase from Deadguy Ale?

1) Wasteland : Everyone knows, what this card is for, unbelieveable tempogain and can eliminate some utilitylands. Recommended to play 4 of them.

2) Scrubland : Yeah, the white-black dualland. The purposes are obvious. Play 4 of them.

3) Marsh Flats : The appropriate Fetchie. Dont play less than 4.

4) Verdant Catacombs (or any other appropriate Fetchie): Just to increase the fetchiecount, play 2 more fetchies.

5) Fetid Heath: This card is very strong, even though its not tutorable. It allows you to play T2 Hymn to Tourach, and T3 Mirran Crusader. It depens on your personal liking how much of them you play. I would advise to play 1-3

6)Basiclands: Ye of course some Basiclands, Swamps and Plains.

Creatures: I wont mention all the creatures who actually has seen play in and DGA list in any time, just the recent ones.

1) Dark Confidant: CA-Machine in person. Dont play less than 4.

2) Stoneforge Mystic: It might depend on the hype at the moment on Stoneforge Mystics, but Ive hardly seen a recent list not playing 4.

3) Mother of Runes: Some like her as a decent T1 drop. She isnt playable in all Deadguy Ale builds but especially in the Aether Vial build shes very useful. When playing her, play 3-4

4) Tidehollow Sculler: When running Aether Vial you should play him, 4 of him.

5) Mirran Crusader: When your deck has got a high white-count or runs enough Fetid Heaths, play this guy. Id recommend 2-3 of this one. When hes equipped he can kill enemies in a few rounds. Plus his protection is kinda nice.

6) Jotun Grunt: Some like him, some dont. One is for sure: He isnt weak. Preboard graveyardhate with a solid body. Nothing bad at all. When playing him play 2.

7) Gatekeeper of Malakir: When running a blackbased list or running enough Fetid Heaths (even with Fetid heaths your decks has to be deep black) take this guy. Hes a perfect CA creature. Coming into play and killing a creature- even with protection. And then he might just be an equipment bearer.

8) Serra Avenger: When running Aether Vial you can take this girl. Shes pretty decent: 2 Mana for a 3/3 flying with vigilance at T3 isnt bad at all.

9) Vampire Nighthawk: This guy is very good aswell. He is a 2/3 deathtouch lifelink for just 3 Mana. He can get you back lost lives or just chumblockes with any fattie.

10) Phyrexian Obliterator: Ok, when I said deep-black up there, I mean deepdeep-black here. But when your deck is like only black or stuff you can run this guy. If well protected hes a decent clock because not many dare to block him due obvious reasons.

11) Phyrexian Revoker: Some actually like to play him mainboard. Hes a nice answer to many cards in Legacy. Though sometimes he might just be a dead card. Your decision.

Spells

1) Hymn to Tourach: Number 1 Discard in Legacy. Always changing 1-2. Always play 4.

2) Thoughtseize: If youd like even more Lifeloss then thats your card. A great discard but 2 dmg.

3) Duress[/card]: A nice discard without any lifeloss. Can take out any noncreature nonland. Against some decks it might be bad but most of the time its very nice.

4) Inquisition of Kozilek: This card is taking most of Legacies cards in general, even though it might not take expensive finishers.

5) Swords to Plowshares: Legacies Removal number 1. Always play 4 of this one.

6) Vindicate: Thats the swiss´army knife. Hits every permanent for 3 Mana. Sometimes it helps you getting your opponent getting manascrewed, sometimes its just a removal, sometimes it destroys some random artifact/enchantment - short: great card. Play 4.

7) Smother: When you need some more creature removal, take this one.

8) Path to Exile : When you need even more creature removal and dont care about the tempobonus you give the enemy, take this one.


Artifacts and Enchantments and Planeswalkers

1) Batterskull: As everyone is playing SFM at the moment you got to play 1 of these aswell.

2) Umezawa´s Jitte: The swiss´army knife under the equips. Id always recommend playing 1.

3) Sensei´s Divining Top: Provides nice cardquality and has some nice evasion with Bob(Dark Confidant)

4) Bitterblossom: When running a creature-light deck and you need an ultimate tokenproducer, take this card. Its just amazing and wins nearly every liferace. Play 2-4

5) Sword of Fire and Ice: The most aggresive sword available, it provides nice CA when letting you draw a card and killing some weaker creature of the enemy.

6) Sword of Light and Shadow: When running alot of (Utility)-creatures this sword provides a good choice.

7) Sword of Body and Mind: This sword offers the best protection, even though its abilities are weaker than SoFaI and SoLaS.

8) [cards]Elspeth, Knight-Errant: This is another very strong finisher, once your Equipment strategy failed this card takes place in winning the game for you. Run 2 of her.


Accelerators: There are 3 kinds of accelerators, even though one is already outdated.

1) Dark Ritual: Thats the outdated acceleration, barely anyone is playing this at the moment, but still some fans of this card do so. When using it, play 4.

2) Chrome Mox: Thats the most common accelerator when playing Deadguy Ale. Even though it produces some CDA at the beginning, but alongside running Chrome Mox you can run fewer lands and even might be able to cast Hymn or SFM T1. When using it, play 3.

3 Aether Vial: Even though this card isnt an acceleration at the first point, but it develops into an accelerationmachine when reaching the late earlygame when you cast a SFM via vial and some spells via your normal mana. When using it, play 4.


Tactics: Some would call DGA a controldeck, some would say its an aggro-control and some think its an midrange-deck. Well if you ask me its a combination of everything. It totally depends on your build. And yes DGA is an midrange deck, even though its a very controllike midrangedeck.
In general your aim is it to race trough the earlygame and try to take as few damage as possible. You rape your opponents hand with discard while you produce cardadvantage via Dark confidant and SFM. Once you reached the midgame you should be able to answer everything your oponent plays with (preventive) Discard or Removal. And a Batterskull or some equipped creature should win the game for your.
Well, easier said than done. What are the problems for this deck?
First of all and mostly aggro.... aggro and more aggro. I mean you can build your deck so its well prepared against aggro but many lists arent. Its very hard to race to the midgame when you got a bunch of damn cc1/free drops (see: Zoo/Affinity) on board. If you cant handle them fast and properly you are...lets say...nearly defeated.
And to make sure things like that dont happen you have accelerators. Starting T1 with a Hymn(via Chrome Mox) or even with Hymn + Duress/Inqui (via Dark Ritual) helps alot. But you dont have such a nice hand all the time. Wasteland is doing a nice job when racing to midgame aswell.
So when everything is running well the board is kinda cleared, you have got a Batterskull down there and maybe some Faerie or Dark Confidant equipped with any Sword or with Jitte. And whatever the enemy is doing, you let him discard it by instant (Aether Vial + Tidehollow Sculler in Draw segment) or you destroy it once it landed on board. Then you start hitting and pumping your lifepoints, so you can ensure letting your Dark Confidant and Bitterblossom work. Once you reached this point of the game: lean back, relax and enjoy your enemy getting smashed.

Matchup-analysis

Zoo: Lets start off with something very brutal. Its a very strong fast Aggro(burn)deck that might be able to smash your strategie easily with his early cc1 drops and his burn. But postboard it isnt that hard to win. But still this stays one of the hardest matchups DGA players have to face.

GW-Aggro: This matchup might seem easy for the first view and sometimes it actually is but remember one thing: this deck runs 4 Qasali Pridemages and 4 GSZ - so in fact 8 artefact destroyers. When they got too many Qasalis you can pray to get a Elspeth and overhelm them on this way or just try to cope with them without Equipments - which is very hard - I know.

Landstill: When you are fast enough to land an SFM down there you might be able to win this game easily. When not its an fair game without anyone being too superior.

NO-decks: When you can stop em early enough from accelerating (Noble Hierach, Birds of Paradise) you actually might be able to rape their hand fast enough and have an easy game. If not - say hi to Progenitus.

Storm/Dredge: You cant (as most of the other decks) really beat em first game, but you have access to really great sideboardcards like Extirpate or Ethersworm Canonist.

Death and Taxes: The most fair matchup i can imagine. Mostly depens on luck or skill who wins.

Merfolk: When you got a decent start without them interrupting you it shouldnt be too hard to kill this itchy fish. When landing a soon Jitte or Batterskull they shouldnt be able to recover fast enough.

Now some lists:

1) Thats the list from Tacosnape, possible the most experienced DGA player in this forum.
4 Marsh Flats
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
4 Swamp
3 Fetid Heath
3 Wasteland

3 Chrome Mox
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

3 Mother of Runes
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Mirran Crusader

2) Thats the list I am running atm

Manabase
4 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
2 Fetid Heath
3 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Tower of the Magistrate

Creatures
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
3 Mirran Crusader

Artefacts
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Umezawa´s Jitte
1 Batterskull
3 Chrome Mox

Enchantment
3 Bitterblossom

Discard
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Duress

Removal
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate


Planeswalker
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Id be happy when you enjoyed reading this primer and maybe decided playing DeadGuy Ale now :)
Even though when you dont I hope you liked it.
If there are any mistakes or things youd like to add/mention just write an PM or post it.
Thanks, Godspeed and Farewell!

[egosum]

Hi guys. I Think is the first time I post in this thread, or at least I haven't posted in a billion months (more or less...). The thing is taht I started playing competitive magic with Pikula (a.k.a. deadguy) three years ago, hence it always had a place in my heart (though I decided to let it a part because I found a new love: Storm). Well few days ago I decided to make anew twist wth all the new stuff we have for this deck and the following list is what I came to:

NOTE: as I said I was not following this thread, so if the list, or the ideas in it, has already been discussed (I made a read of the lasts post and some of course are) please be kind to me and do not start blaming for being redundant, from now I'll try to follow the thread more closely so I can be more productive.

"Bitterguy"

Main deck:

4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Dark Confidant

4x Bitterblossom

1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Feast and Famine

4x Dark Ritual

4x Thoughtseize
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Hymn to Tourach

4x Vindicate
4x Swords to Plowshares

2x Sensei's Divining Top

4x Wasteland
4x Scrubland
4x Swamp
1x Plains
4x Marsh Flats
2x Bloodstained Mire
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Polluted Delta

Sidebaord:

2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Trinisphere
1x Chains of Mephistopheles
1x Sword of Body and Mind
1x Ghostly Prison
1x Oblivion Ring
2x Pyrexian Revoker
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Extirpate
2x Perish

First of all I' d like to comment the Sideboard, since maybe the most "unorthodox" part of the deck.

Enlightened Tutor: supports the following pack...

Trinisphere: far better than cannonist against combo stuff. It is also more versatile since can give us the edge against burn and zoo (the latter is a bit narrow though). I know it can annoy us but n the pairing we are playing it, being resolved may be almost gg (even if it is played off ritual 1st turn or in the third turn after some disruption is played)

Chains of Mephistopheles: this card is excellent at what it does. I'll side it against Combo decks and heavy draw blue based decks (jace decks and the kind). The ideas behind chosing this as my hoser against combo are: 1st- as a combo player I must say that enchantmets are the type of permamenents harder to deal with, 2nd- the optimal combo deck in the current metagame is Spiral Tide (I'm not going to discuss if this is tru or not in htis thread, if someone disagree and wants to talk about it, just p.m.), and 3rd- like cannonist it annoys the combo player at the moment it hits table, in this case, transforming cantrips into card disadvantage. It is also incredibly nasty against enchantress (though not very likely you face one of this...).

Sword of Body and mind: provides great protection with an extra win condition if needed (I saw some Melira Infinite Persist combo decks out there). The reason why I chose not to play it main deck is a matter of slots, I had to choose between this and Feast and Famine, I finally selected the latter due to it's untapping ability which I think is very useful in an equipment deck like this (even more important with bitterblosson on table so you can equip the recently spawned faerie with the weaponry after attacking with the older one).

Ghostly Prison: a big solution against tribal decks, also helps in a mirror and against Thopter foundry. Not the best card ever but very decent at what it does.

Oblivion ring: tutorable vindicate (more or less...). Helps against: Jace, Equipment, Counterbalance...

Phyrexian Revoker:2-legged pithing needle, doesn't die to Misstep, can bear the weaponry. Stops Grim Lavamancer, Jace, ...

Tormod's Crypt: if Reanimator didn't play a full set of MM this would be Nihil Spellbomb.

Extirpate: far more versatile than Tormod's but less effective against dredge. Side in against Combo and
Control deck also.

Perish: the solution against progenitus, this used to be diabolic edict because it also get rid of Emrakul, but as Green based creature decks are so popular I decided to made the change.

There is nothign really special to say about the main deck, I think is self explainatory. I decided to play dark ritual becuase this decks needs acceleration, and with Bobs and equipment it can also be useful if drawn during the midgame, I prefer this over chrome mox because it doesn't hurts your hand so badly. The only problem I see is that it can be hit by MM, but if you have this in mind and play the ritual properly this won't hurt that much, even more it can be used as lure.


Greetings,

Iñaki.-

P.S. Some interesting cards for the sideboard are also: Manriki Gusari and Phyrexian Metamorph.

[Tacosnape]

I'm 5-0 in matches against Zoo, 10-2 in games.

Deadguy lists that get steamrolled by Zoo need to question how much they're using their own life total as a resource. Thoughtseize and Bitterblossom, for example, are absolutely terrible against Zoo. You can't crack fetchlands, fire off Thoughtseizes, and then drop Bitterblossoms and Confidants against a deck that's already taken the offense and hope to stabilize. It's hard enough to do it without making their path easier for them.

Here's the thing about Thoughtseize in Legacy right now though. For all its amazing versatility, it's an absolutely horrible horrible tempo card. Essentially, you're spending one mana and two life to do absolutely nothing to change the current board position, and you're a deck that cares a lot about the board position. So instead of Thoughtseize, you have a lot of different options:

1. Inquisition of Kozilek. You still spend the mana, but not the life. Inquisition's at its best when Seize is at its worst. Inquisition's at its worst when it can't grab a combo deck's Force backup or a Jace/Natural Order.

2. Mental Misstep. This is what I run in my sideboard to compliment Inquisition. It's kind of the reverse of Thoughtseize in some ways. You still pay the two life, but they spend the mana.

3. Cabal Therapy. Best with Bitterblossom and a much higher impact card, but not always a great card to have in an opening hand on the play.

4. Duress. Cheap. Efficient. Hits Jace and combo pieces and removal. Doesn't keep more guys from landing, though.

The point is, You've got to pick your use of your life resource. If you want the ridiculous havoc-wreaking that comes with an entire playset of Confidant and Bitterblossoms, you have to make some sacrifices. Add a second Jitte and run discard that doesn't kill you. If you can't live without Thoughtseize's versatility, kill Bitterblossom. If you can't do either of those, take your Zoo loss like a champ.

EDIT: Also, Mother of Runes, which is otherwise the second worst card in my deck behind Sword of Fire and Ice, might have a large hand in my success against Zoo.

[Anthem]

I've seen a few lists with Kitchen Finks; I'm assuming they run it in a slot where they'd normally run Mirran Crusader or maybe Vindicate. I don't see the advantage of running it over MC besides maybe the Zoo matchup, if your deck has too much lifeloss, or more Cabal Therapy fun. What do you all think? If it doesn't get StP it can be interpreted as a two-for-one.

[from Cairo]

I'd lean towards Mirran Crusader - especially with Mother of Runes. I think MC will have a larger impact on board state generally. W/o Mother of Runes - MC is going to be harder to protect. So I guess it could be somewhat build dependent, if one is running Bitterblossom over MoR, Cabal Therapy becomes more appealing and Persist has nice synergy with that.

[Rizso]

I'm 5-0 in matches against Zoo, 10-2 in games.

Deadguy lists that get steamrolled by Zoo need to question how much they're using their own life total as a resource. Thoughtseize and Bitterblossom, for example, are absolutely terrible against Zoo. You can't crack fetchlands, fire off Thoughtseizes, and then drop Bitterblossoms and Confidants against a deck that's already taken the offense and hope to stabilize. It's hard enough to do it without making their path easier for them.

Here's the thing about Thoughtseize in Legacy right now though. For all its amazing versatility, it's an absolutely horrible horrible tempo card. Essentially, you're spending one mana and two life to do absolutely nothing to change the current board position, and you're a deck that cares a lot about the board position. So instead of Thoughtseize, you have a lot of different options:

1. Inquisition of Kozilek. You still spend the mana, but not the life. Inquisition's at its best when Seize is at its worst. Inquisition's at its worst when it can't grab a combo deck's Force backup or a Jace/Natural Order.

2. Mental Misstep. This is what I run in my sideboard to compliment Inquisition. It's kind of the reverse of Thoughtseize in some ways. You still pay the two life, but they spend the mana.

3. Cabal Therapy. Best with Bitterblossom and a much higher impact card, but not always a great card to have in an opening hand on the play.

4. Duress. Cheap. Efficient. Hits Jace and combo pieces and removal. Doesn't keep more guys from landing, though.

The point is, You've got to pick your use of your life resource. If you want the ridiculous havoc-wreaking that comes with an entire playset of Confidant and Bitterblossoms, you have to make some sacrifices. Add a second Jitte and run discard that doesn't kill you. If you can't live without Thoughtseize's versatility, kill Bitterblossom. If you can't do either of those, take your Zoo loss like a champ.

EDIT: Also, Mother of Runes, which is otherwise the second worst card in my deck behind Sword of Fire and Ice, might have a large hand in my success against Zoo.

BTW the zoo you faced are they GSZ, heavy burn or Kotr based?

Against red / white based aggro decks I have been thinking of trying out thoes Phyrexian Crusaders. We are the control deck against thoes deck so we dont have to kill them fast but rather get to the stage where we can grind them out. But dont really have any red decks at all in the my current metagame..

[Tacosnape]

Phyrexian Crusader would just be nuts against Zoo, but I don't know that it's worth it given how he doesn't play nice with your other swingers.

The Zoo decks I face are either usually burn heavy or mid-speed with Knight of the Reliquary. I don't face much in the Big Zoo or Zenith variants, but I imagine these would actually be better for me. The only games I've ever lost to Zoo I lost from just not being able to stabilize against Guy/Removal/Guy/Swang/Repeat. And I lost one game to a Goyf Sligh that went Foothills-Mountain-Lavamancer, Foothills-Taiga-Lavamancer-Lavamancer. Swords'd one, Gatekeepered another, but couldn't get rid of the third and I couldn't stick a guy the whole game.

[Tim the Enchanter]

Made Top 8 of a 30 something SCG IQ with a few tweaks to the my last list yesterday. My only two losses were to the same guy, Brad, with UW Landstill. I got pretty unlucky in all 5 games, mulliganing at least once every game and I think to three times to 5. The first game of the Top 8 I mulligan, get Bob countered and get Jaced with 11 land between the yard and battlefield... he didn't ship any cards to the bottom. Such is life.

[Anthem]

Made Top 8 of a 30 something SCG IQ with a few tweaks to the my last list yesterday. My only two losses were to the same guy, Brad, with UW Landstill. I got pretty unlucky in all 5 games, mulliganing at least once every game and I think to three times to 5. The first game of the Top 8 I mulligan, get Bob countered and get Jaced with 11 land between the yard and battlefield... he didn't ship any cards to the bottom. Such is life.

Did you find that your non-token creatures were thrwarted without MoR? Did you face Zoo? What inspired the 2-of Tidehollow? And did the 1 Diabolic Edict ever come up?

[bokwinkle]

taco, that's an excellent point about life as a resource and choice of discard spells.

Thoughtseize and bob can make for some pretty tight games against agressive decks, and you need to watch what cards you're using.

These are also things you need to think about when you're making your board - considering what cards you're going to put in isn't enough...you need to think about what you're taking out (in this case it may be thoughtseize or bitterblossom) and what are good replacements for those cards against agressive decks.

Also, I agree that Mom is probably helping you quite a bit in zoo MU's.

--------

What does everyone think of the potential artifact hate coming our way? Is stoneforge/equipment still our best choice of finishers?

[Rizso]

I think we need a Plan B, a none artifact finisher. As much as I love Mystic. With UW stoneforge seeing so much play its just a matter of time before Ancient Grudge and other artifact hate will be everywhere. But mostly the hard countered ones like Krosan Grip and Ancient Grudge. I think we need some exellent none artifact finisher or a great card against artifact removal. I do not think 4CC is out of reach for this deck. When running high amount of basic count, im running 4 and 6 fetch as well Chome Moxes. And we are a grinding deck we arent gonna finish the game before turn 7 anyway.

Cards I Have been thinking of none artifact finisher

Phyrexian Obliterator, 4 black in the mana cost can be annoying but allready using a mostly mono black mana base without a plain.

Elspeth. Strong planeswalker 4cc with 2x white mana. Fetid Heath makes the 2x white less of the problem. Thought I think we want a good black planeswalker if it arrives in the future that is.

Hero of Bladehold, out of Bolt range. Finish the games really fast if not removed, makes all squires, bears and 2/1's hit for way more.

Phyrexian Crusader finisher against zoo from the board. Replaces the mirran crusader after boarding. Only goyf that the crusader cant be blocking and suriviving unless there is just 3 card types in the graves. But we got lots of removal so goyf shouldnt be a problem. Equiped Crusader will finish a game as fast if not faster then most other creatures and with really good protections.

Cards to protect our plan A

Hanna's Custody, Gives shroud to our equipments. A board already usinga a tutor package might have this one into consideration.

Extirpate / Surgial Extraction, geting thoes artifact removal cards removed for the future can be a game winning plan. As well gives answers against Dredge that we have a bad matchup against.

Indomitable Archangel, does require metalcraft. But is a plan b and protects plan A. Probly not worth it but just thinking loudly here.

Leonin Abunas Same as above but not really a plan B but protects plan A but 2/5 for 4 isnt optimal.

[Richard Cheese]

I know how to beat Zoo. Just side in

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Lotus Petal
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Ad Nauseum
1 Tendrils of Agony

[Anthem]

Some aren't a fan of him but Jotun Grunt sweeps the dead artifacts under to be tutored again, is a solid body against Zoo, and is mainboard GY hate.

[Richard Cheese]

Some aren't a fan of him but Jotun Grunt sweeps the dead artifacts under to be tutored again, is a solid body against Zoo, and is mainboard GY hate.

Not to beat a dead horse, but there are a lot of drawbacks to Jotun Grunt in a list like this:

1. If he comes down early, he won't stick around long enough to matter unless your opponent is on dredge or something else that abuses the GY. Zoo will just wait until you can't pay while amassing guys and burn.

2. Late, he's a 4/4 for 2, which isn't bad, but it isn't really changing the board state either. If you're at the point where this guy can actually stick around for several turns against Zoo, you're probably within burn range or close to it.

Most deadguy lists just can't put enough stuff in the yard fast enough to make this guy worth anything in the early game when you really need him. Honestly, Wall of Omens is probably better against Zoo.

[Leto]

to the finisher-discussion,

its an old hat I suggested maybe 50 Sites back, but Abyssal Persecutor is still good in Deadguy, even without any tweaks (pressing in Therapys...) I won more than a couple of Games on his back

[Richard Cheese]

Persecutor isn't bad, and neither is obliterator. Both are only marginally helpful in the Zoo matchup though, as they are going to have 3-4 Path/Swords effects maindeck, and possibly more out of the board. You might catch them off guard in one game, but once they see either they'll be ready.

[bokwinkle]

Yeah, there are 2 distinct converstations going on here:

1. Potential need for alternative finishers - and what are the options.

2. Cards to shore up the Zoo match up.

Something that could actually deal with both issues would be cool.

I still run Percy with Dark Rituals, Therapies, and Gatekeepers - but i really want to run 3 equipment now (batterskull, SoFI, & Jitte), so I'm running out of room for finishers, if I go to a 3/3 SFM/Equipment split I really only have room for like 2 Percy's....plus I'm running a bunch of "potentially" sub-optimal cards in order to get around Percy's conditions. I'm toying with some things at the moment (including a 3rd color), but I haven't been happy with any of my ideas yet.

[Richard Cheese]

Yeah, there are 2 distinct converstations going on here:

1. Potential need for alternative finishers - and what are the options.

2. Cards to shore up the Zoo match up.

Something that could actually deal with both issues would be cool.

I still run Percy with Dark Rituals, Therapies, and Gatekeepers - but i really want to run 3 equipment now (batterskull, SoFI, & Jitte), so I'm running out of room for finishers, if I go to a 3/3 SFM/Equipment split I really only have room for like 2 Percy's....plus I'm running a bunch of "potentially" sub-optimal cards in order to get around Percy's conditions. I'm toying with some things at the moment (including a 3rd color), but I haven't been happy with any of my ideas yet.

Have you tested Obliterator in the Percy slot? Would let you cut some of your sac outlets to run additional Obliterators, but I don't know what kind of manabase you're working with.

[Anthem]

If the deck can play either, I prefer Obliterator to Percy any day. Both put the player on at least a 4 turn clock (from 20), Percy has flying but Obliterator reads as unblockable unless your opponent wants to lose more. Obliterator with equipment gives the sort of ultimatum I'd love to put an opponent in, and you don't have to run more removal to accommodate it. Also, if StP/Path is the only Zoo card that can take Obliterator in exchange for being nigh-untouchable otherwise, I accept.

I see some lists with Chrome Mox, and I like it. Getting that Turn 1 Hymn is a great jumpstart, and is also a small bit of mana fixing. I think I prefer it to Ritual, even when running Obliterators. Is there an argument between Ritual and Mox or for neither?

[Einherjer]

No there isnt really an argument between this two. Only idiots will tell you ritual is actually better.

But i prefer to play Mirran Crusader in the Spots where you play the Obliterator - While im more equipmentbased Mirrans are even setting a faster clock. Jitte with 2 Counters and Crusader = 2 hit dead :)

[bokwinkle]

Here's my thing with Percy vs Oblit:

I think ultimately, Percy's biggest downside is the fact that you can't just swap him in for 3-4 other cards, you really have to re-craft your deck to build around him...and when you build around a single card sideboarding becomes much more difficult, and the deck generally becomes less adaptive.

Percy has his huge drawback that requires us to run more removal - but honestly, it's not an unreasonable ammount of removal - and it makes our removal valid in games when removal is typically dead (combo, etc). This is good in a way, because I don't mind keeping my 4 swords, 2 vindicates, and at least a couple of gatekeepers in against a deck with only a few creatures (show and tell, natural order, or even landstill). It's bad because against combo we still have to leave in removal, despite having no good enemy targets. I've had to give serious thought about how to side against many combo decks with percy....and honestly it's not easy. However, matchups against stuff like Goblins, Rock, and several other creature heavy decks become much easier with that much removal - and if I didn't have it in the main, I'd probably be looking to find a place to put it in the side. So my Game 1 may improve against Combo, but it would definately get worse against aggro.

Also, Cabal therapy is there...I don't necessarilly consider this a sub-optimal card since I have 6-8 effects (depending on the day) in my deck that looks at my opponent's hand (sculler and seize). There have been occaisons where I blanked on therapy, but I've also blown people out by taking 2 or even 3 cards from there hand on turn 2. Or you can always take "the dredge approach" and just name the card you don't want to see. Honestly I'd probably replace it with duress, given the choice, but the duress or IoK upside is so minimal it's hardly worth talking about IMHO.

On Percy's upside, you have a bigger body that can't be hit by dismember, and is really a 3 turn clock (because of fetches, forces, etc). Plus, it really has evasion - not fake evasion - real evasion. He occaisonally gets some chumps in the form of birds, Cliques, or tombstalkers, but generally the chumps aren't really an option to most opponents. Plus I don't need to include Fetid Heath or Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth to run Percy and still have a pretty white heavy deck and I can include wasteland a basic plains and a Karakas in my list without worrying about if I'm going to screw myself.

-------------------

Chrome Mox - I guess I fall in the "idiot category"

I see so many people running it now, but I just can't get on board. I guess if you run a heavier 2 cmc spot with Hymns (I don't run hymns) then the Mox can be better than dark ritual for accelleration. However, I like turn 1 ritual, thoughtsieze, Bob or turn 1 Double ritual thoughtsieze Percy (I've done both several times...but I'm also a lucky asshole). I also like turn 1 Engineered plague against goblins and fish. Even turn 1 Nighthawk is pretty sexy. Ultimately Ritual shines when you run a black finisher too - if you're win con's lie soley in the white category (Mirran Crusader and/or Stoneforge mystic), then Dark ritual will probably seem pretty lackluster.

The biggest problem I currently have with the Mox is that we are already begging people to bring in artifact removal for our equipment - giving decks that already have wasteland a way to 2 for 1 other mana sources just seems like bad planning to me. I'm not even worried about stuff like ancient grudge...it's more stuff like Null Rod that really bother me. I don't want a deck that "just looses to artifact hate"

However, I have been in situations where I've drawn light land (1-2) and heavy dark rituals (3-4) over the course of a game, and these are games that I often loose. In those cases the Moxen would probably be better. Generally though, land light games are less common than the games that I win because I have dark ritual. I've easilly won 10 games on the back of ritual where moxen may not have got me there, and probably lost 2 that might have been better with moxen. I'd much rather draw multiple rituals than multiple moxen too....I mean, who wants to pitch 2-3 cards to play an early threat that just eats swords and have an empty hand?

I think the inclusing of mental misstep has an impact on this choice though. Generally the life expectancy of an early bob is pretty short without a turn 1 discard spell to proceed it...however with misstep, all of a sudden turn 1 bob (off of mox) has a chance of getting there. Although, pitching misstep to moxen isn't really a good option either...

Overall, I think the choice is heavilly dependant on your curve and color distribution. If you are heavier in the 2 cmc spot and run very little white I think it's probably a pretty good choice, but I personally don't believe the card advantage that you gain through Hymn is enough to make up for the disadvantage of mox. Of course my thoughts on Hymn are another discussion entirely.

Or you can just believe that the Mox is better because "everyone who doesn't is an idiot". LOL

[Anthem]

No there isnt really an argument between this two. Only idiots will tell you ritual is actually better.

But i prefer to play Mirran Crusader in the Spots where you play the Obliterator - While im more equipmentbased Mirrans are even setting a faster clock. Jitte with 2 Counters and Crusader = 2 hit dead :)

Oh, I agree. I'm saying I'd play Obliterator (probably cutting Mirran, actually) as an alternative win condition in an environment where I believe there'll be an abnormal amount of equipment hate because of UW Tempo or if I see lots of Zoo/Aggro Loam/etc. Even naked, Obliterator takes it home. If swinging with a stick is guaranteed or at least with normal amount of hate, then Mirran Crusader is more effective.

[bokwinkle]

To me, including mirran crusader is a poor choice. He's small bodied for his mana cost, and dilluting the mana base to run something with double white is simply not worth the risk of loosing to wasteland for a card that has such a minimal upside.

Sure, with an equipment he can win you the game. But I got news, a bitterblossom token with an equipment can win you the game. It's not crusader that makes you win, it's the equipment. Pro green is relevant because much of the chumpers in the format are green, and pro-black is becoming more relevant because of misstep and dismember - but he doesn't have protections that dodge the most common and relevant removal in the format (swords/path/and cards with lightning in the title). Ultimately there are better finishers in black that you could run that don't require the use of equipment, and leave your deck open to winning through artifact hate - where the chances that Crusader will get you there through artifact hate and commonly used removal is questionable.

[Rizso]

Its fine if they are chumping and sacing when blocking The obliterator he got trample for a reason :P

Trample also means if he is equiped you will get the sword effects even when blocked :P

[funyun45]

I'm going to keep beating this dead horse, but it bears repeating over and over again.

If you are looking for something to help against the Zoo matchup, Mental Misstep is about as good as it gets. It protects your SFM from removal so that Batterskull can come down, at which time the race to put you within burn range comes to a screeching halt. It also can counter Nacatl and its ilk. Against other matchups, Misstep continues to shine, stopping:

Aether Vial
Top
Lackey
Cursecatcher
StP
Path
Thoughtseize
Glimpse (and elves)
Brainstorm (an awesome play when they attempt to hide cards from IoK or Thoughtseize)
E-tutor
pretty much everything Dredge wants to be doing
opposing Missteps

And the list goes on and on.

If you're playing Aggro-Control and aren't running Misstep for uber tempo advantage, you're doing it all wrong. If you're playing Mox or Ritual instead of Misstep you're really doing it wrong. Who cares about putting down SFM a turn sooner when you have no way to counter removal that will presently be blowing it to the stone age? And, since you spent your first turn using down card advantage to play a vulnerable card rather than casting IoK to clear the way, they're even more likely to have that removal. So, this obsession with powering out SFM a turn early only leads to Batterskull (the best anti-Zoo tool in the deck) sitting in your hand until you can hard cast it, by which time Zoo has already killed you, buried you, exhumed your corpse, and killed you again.

Mental Misstep. 4-of. Maindeck. QED.

[TheAncientMariner]

I agree that Mental Misstep is a card that probably should be played in Deadguy Ale, although maybe only in the SB. I don't think I would take out Dark Ritual or Mox, why not use both MM and mana acceleration for tempo?

Concerning Abyssal Persecutor. If you want to play it in this deck, I think you only really need 1 card to make sure you can get rid of it, and that is an equipment which allows you to sac a creature - Mortarpod. Including one copy of Mortarpod will mean that you get 5 extra cards (4 Mystics) that will help you get rid of Percy (even multiple Percys). And Mortarpod is not so bad on its own either, its decent with Bitterblossom (and maybe Nighthawk) too.

[Tacosnape]

I've had 4 in the sideboard, and the more I play the deck, the more I want them maindeck. I'm starting to think it's Mental Misstep that deserves the maindeck spot, and the discard that deserves to be in board. Misstep/Hymn is a brutal combination right now, and Thoughtseize/Inquisition/Duress are all falling behind.

It's a question of tempo. A lot of people don't realize how big of a swing it is between, say, Thoughtseize and Mental Misstep. In both cases, you're trading a card for a card. The difference is who's spending the mana on the card. Mental Misstepping a 1-drop versus Thoughtseizing it is a swing of 2 mana. Misstep means you spend one less, and they spend one more. The tradeoff, obviously, is that you can't hit things that aren't CMC 1, but for that swing? It's tempting.

I intend to experiment with both a Misstep and a Misstep/Daze/Mage list pretty shortly. We'll see where it goes.

EDIT: FWIW, Yixlid Jailer's amazingly hot sex in sideboard right now, for all the things it can do against Loam, Manaless Dredge, and Cephalid Breakfast. Blows against Reanimator, but a split between him and Crypt/Extraction/Extirpate's worth it in a pinch.

[bokwinkle]

Its fine if they are chumping and sacing when blocking The obliterator he got trample for a reason :P

Trample also means if he is equiped you will get the sword effects even when blocked :P

haha, I'm an idiot - for some reason I missed that he has the tramps.


I've had 4 in the sideboard, and the more I play the deck, the more I want them maindeck. I'm starting to think it's Mental Misstep that deserves the maindeck spot, and the discard that deserves to be in board. Misstep/Hymn is a brutal combination right now, and Thoughtseize/Inquisition/Duress are all falling behind....

....I intend to experiment with both a Misstep and a Misstep/Daze/Mage list pretty shortly. We'll see where it goes.

Do you still run Wasteland in a list with blue? Do you change the creaturebase, would now be a good time to reconsider mother of runes, tidehollow sculler, and/or vampire nighthawk...often considered the worst cards in the list? If you're taking out discard, does Sculler get the axe in favor of countermagic as well? If you're running blue shouldn't you at least consider brainstorm since it's arguably the most undercosted card in the format? At what point do you just play Esperblade? These are the questions I've been asking myself when looking at blue - and I'm looking at blue so hard that I'm taking it to a local tonight, and probably a 1k over the weekend.

If you look at some of the esperblade lists you'll quickly see several very similar cards when compared to DGA:

4x Thoughtseize
4x Dark Confidant
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Batterskull
1x Fourth Equipment

And several run Mother of Runes as well, and at least run a couple vindicate in the board, if not in the main.

That's 20-26 cards that are very similar in decks that run 22-24 land. When you add mental misstep to that list the differences between the 2 decks get even smaller...consider daze, and well, you get the point.

I'm not saying we shouldn't discuss it here - in fact that's quite the opposite of what I mean to suggest. What I'm suggesting is that anyone that is toting an 8 card mystic package start to look at the "blade" decklists and consider what makes deadguy more or less viable as a competitor when compred to these lists, while learning from the people that are developing these lists - and bring that understanding back to this thread so that we can discuss what makes DGA the better choice, and discuss how we bridge the gaps and shore up the poor matchups that are created by running SFM as your primary threat, since many of us are starting to lean in that direction.

[Rizso]

I doubt the esper version would be able to run Gatekeeper of Malakir. TBH using equipments require lots of mana and daze doesnt really fit into that plan. Only real thing outside of misstep from blue would be Brainstorm and Jace tbh. With the loads of GW maveriks and UW-stoneblade I dont really like FoW that much with the current meta. FoW would also require loads of blue cards.

You arent alone missing him having trample. Have missed it a couple of times when facing him in standard :P

As for Mortarpod, it removes bridges as well as kills any Dread Return enablers :P

[Richard Cheese]

I've had 4 in the sideboard, and the more I play the deck, the more I want them maindeck. I'm starting to think it's Mental Misstep that deserves the maindeck spot, and the discard that deserves to be in board. Misstep/Hymn is a brutal combination right now, and Thoughtseize/Inquisition/Duress are all falling behind.

It's a question of tempo. A lot of people don't realize how big of a swing it is between, say, Thoughtseize and Mental Misstep. In both cases, you're trading a card for a card. The difference is who's spending the mana on the card. Mental Misstepping a 1-drop versus Thoughtseizing it is a swing of 2 mana. Misstep means you spend one less, and they spend one more. The tradeoff, obviously, is that you can't hit things that aren't CMC 1, but for that swing? It's tempting.

I intend to experiment with both a Misstep and a Misstep/Daze/Mage list pretty shortly. We'll see where it goes.

EDIT: FWIW, Yixlid Jailer's amazingly hot sex in sideboard right now, for all the things it can do against Loam, Manaless Dredge, and Cephalid Breakfast. Blows against Reanimator, but a split between him and Crypt/Extraction/Extirpate's worth it in a pinch.

What do you run as your 1-drops? Seems like Misstep with cmc1 discard could set up a major early tempo gain. I would almost rather do that than Hymn, since it's competing with most of the creatures we run.

[bokwinkle]

I doubt the esper version would be able to run Gatekeeper of Malakir. TBH using equipments require lots of mana and daze doesnt really fit into that plan. Only real thing outside of misstep from blue would be Brainstorm and Jace tbh. With the loads of GW maveriks and UW-stoneblade I dont really like FoW that much with the current meta. FoW would also require loads of blue cards...

I'm not saying that Esper would run gatekeeper, I'm just saying that there are a lot of cards that they do run and that we run. Hell, not even all DGA lists can run gatekeeper....I run 6 non-black lands in my deck and have trouble casting the guy sometimes despite having dark ritual.

I'm not a fan of FoW either (I think we're pretty far from the requisite 20 blue cards to make it happen) and I've never much liked daze - so we can agree there. Spell snare, spell pierce, and MM on the other hand are relevant and probably all worth consideration, depending on meta.

In my experience, once you start going down the blue road it's pretty easy to be sidetracked into esperblade - especially since brainstorm combined with bob and gaga really streamlines the deck and pretty much garuntee's a broken Turn 2 play. And it doesn't take long to start subbing countermagic for discard.

[Rizso]

Lets say we should play misstep in the main how many should we really be playing? We dont have Brainstorm to shuffle away quite useless lategame Missteps when we are facing down Goyfs, KotR or a Jace.

[Richard Cheese]

Lets say we should play misstep in the main how many should we really be playing? We dont have Brainstorm to shuffle away quite useless lategame Missteps when we are facing down Goyfs, KotR or a Jace.

Nor do we have a way to shuffle away useless lategame Hymns or IoK/Duress/TS. Not knocking them, just saying that poor mid/late draws are a problem that this deck always struggles with.

[Leto]

MM isn't useless in mid/lategame, as Swords/Paths are Number one Removal and Cantrips usually cost 1 Mana. In my opinion, Legacy is the format that features the most viable 1-Drops in Magic, so a late drawn MM is more useful than a late drawn Discard-Spell, as the Cheese said

[novatinhu]

My current list is:


// Deck file for Magic Workstation

// Lands
1 Plains
3 Swamp
4 Marsh Flats
1 Godless Shrine
1 Tainted Field
3 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
2 Verdant Catacombs

// Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Grand Abolisher
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir

// Spells
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
3 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Chrome Mox
3 Bitterblossom
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Runed Halo
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Manriki-Gusari
SB: 1 Serenity
SB: 2 Perish
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor


Any comments? what do you think in add 2 Grand Abolisher?

[Tim the Enchanter]

Grand Abolisher is junk. Most of the things you want him to stop happen on your opponents turn anyway. He's WW for a mildly disruptive 2/2.

I'd play Fetid Heath over Tainted Field, and probably Godless Shrine too.

You only need 3 equipment, and Sword of Body and mind nuts. I've been saying it for months but SoBaM is the only sword you need main. It stops Goyfs/KotR/Fish/Jace.

Discard is obviously at it's best in the first few turns, but it's rarely dead. Yes MM still stops removal, but removal shouldn't be your biggest concern by a long short.

If you're playing SFM, you should be, and not Bitterblossom you're wrong. At worst BB is a Forcefield against Goyfs and other fatties. A token trades with Clique. They carry equipment like a champ.

Vampire Nighthawk has always been, and still is, garbage. Why do I want to pay 3 for a 2/3 even if it does have flying, lifelink, and deathtouch? If you want a flyer with deatchtouch add Basilisk Collar, that way you have an endless supply of Nighthawks.

In the 4 slot I'd much rather have Elspeth than Persecutor. Yes you have to have double white and sometimes you just don't. You'll have the double white more often than you'll have the removal for Persecutor as soon as he kills, barring Therapy of course. Elspeth protects herself, doesn't fail the Jace test, and kills almost as quickly.

If you're gonna splash blue I think you should be playing Stifle. The card is so good in the meta right now. It stops SFM's cip, Batterskull from coming in with a Germ on it. Jace activations, but not the cost which can be a double edged sword. It beats Hive Mind, Clique, Deed, EE, fetches etc.

[Einherjer]

So.. I dont know if i should play 2MentalMisstep or include 4 of them... while kicking out cc1 Discard but OFC leaving Hymn in, its too good.

And please guys..do me a favor.. dont splash blue. There was one Esperbladelist placing 22th of some over 400 players, and I thought, ye lets prox it. And i tried it out vs my own DGA list and the Esperblade one failed so hard... really it sucked. It had MM Brainstorm Spell Snare and Spell Pierce included... I think it took the Esperblade like 10 games to beat my list once - and that was only because I kept some greedz hand... So please - go and switch to a decent blue deck and dont splash it in DGA DONT. Thank you:)

About Vampire Nighthawk: I prefer playing Mirran Crusader in his Slot, shifting this deck more towards white but its ok for me.

And ye, please guys, get SoBaM mainboard, its really great :)

[Leto]

It doesn't matter if Esperblade has a bad MU to your DGA if it beats most of the other decks ;)

[Einherjer]

Actually I dont think it does.

[Richard Cheese]

Grand Abolisher is junk. Most of the things you want him to stop happen on your opponents turn anyway. He's WW for a mildly disruptive 2/2.

Vampire Nighthawk has always been, and still is, garbage. Why do I want to pay 3 for a 2/3 even if it does have flying, lifelink, and deathtouch? If you want a flyer with deatchtouch add Basilisk Collar, that way you have an endless supply of Nighthawks.


I could hug you for this.


Discard is obviously at it's best in the first few turns, but it's rarely dead. Yes MM still stops removal, but removal shouldn't be your biggest concern by a long short.

I agree that discard is rarely dead, but it gets progressively worse as the game goes on. Late in the game you might still hit some good cards with Hymn, but if you're staring down some fatties and that's all you drew, you basically gave them a free combat step with it. I almost feel like discard needs to become a 3-of like Moxen, something you want to see in the first few turns, but not necessarily multiples of.

Also stopping removal is just a bonus of Misstep. The main utility is stopping critical one-drops, but the ability to hit Swords/Path/Bolt makes it a bit more relevant than say Thoughtsieze late in the game.

[Richard Cheese]

Grand Abolisher is junk. Most of the things you want him to stop happen on your opponents turn anyway. He's WW for a mildly disruptive 2/2.

Vampire Nighthawk has always been, and still is, garbage. Why do I want to pay 3 for a 2/3 even if it does have flying, lifelink, and deathtouch? If you want a flyer with deatchtouch add Basilisk Collar, that way you have an endless supply of Nighthawks.


I could hug you for this.


Discard is obviously at it's best in the first few turns, but it's rarely dead. Yes MM still stops removal, but removal shouldn't be your biggest concern by a long short.

I agree that discard is rarely dead, but it gets progressively worse as the game goes on. Late in the game you might still hit some good cards with Hymn, but if you're staring down some fatties and that's all you drew, you basically gave them a free combat step with it. I almost feel like discard needs to become a 3-of like Moxen, something you want to see in the first few turns, but not necessarily multiples of.

Also stopping removal is just a bonus of Misstep. The main utility is stopping critical one-drops, but the ability to hit Swords/Path/Bolt makes it a bit more relevant than say Thoughtsieze late in the game.

[Rizso]

I currently run 2 Missteps but thinking of running 3, using them mostly to get stuff active rather then countering creatures wich i have 12 other cards to kill them with.

Currently testing out 3 phyrexian arena in additional to the 4 bobs. No longer any bitterblossoms. There are so many matchups where i need to have an active bob but their lifespan is mostly kept short. This is reason for trying them out.

And the board im thinking of now is:

3 Phyrexian Crusader
3 perish
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Sword of fire and ice
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Ethersworn Canonist

If Ancient Grudge starts to show up alot more then probly a Hanna's Custody will be in the board.

[Anthem]

I'm a little skeptical about SoBM being the only sword needed main, at least as a sweeping claim. Maybe a build with less creatures (~10-12) that uses BB and Elspeth would like it because of the additional bodies and the ability for the 3/3 tokens to slide past 5/6s, but I'd say a build with ~20 creatures and vial would benefit more from SoLS or SoFI to get the pain/life and CA in. If someone makes another primer, adding the pros/cons of the swords might be a great addition to it.

Perish and discard are probably the best answers to Zoo I can think of. Take away some aggression (they'll always win the aggro race) and play like midrange, right?

One thing I've noticed playing Deadguy is that I always scoop to Reanimator if it puts in Iona and names white. A lot of you are already doing it, but I'd recommend running Gatekeepers or at least one monoblack (preferably 2cc like GftT because of Missteps in the B/U build) removal spell, too.

[Tacosnape]

I'm a little skeptical about SoBM being the only sword needed main, at least as a sweeping claim.

Agreed. I'm way beyond skeptical. Sword of Body and Mind is absolutely terrible. It offers no removal, no lifegain, no card advantage, and very limited protection from removal. There are way better options.


One thing I've noticed playing Deadguy is that I always scoop to Reanimator if it puts in Iona and names white. A lot of you are already doing it, but I'd recommend running Gatekeepers or at least one monoblack (preferably 2cc like GftT because of Missteps in the B/U build) removal spell, too.

Like the rest of the world, your life will become simpler if you run more graveyard hate in your sideboard. This will help matters. And yes, Gatekeeper is neat here. I did once beat Iona on white when I only had a Stoneforge on the board and managed to outrace it with a Jitte'd Batterskull'd Germ Token (I swung with the Stoneforge carrying the Jitte once to ensure I could swing through Iona intact.)

[Tim the Enchanter]

Agreed. I'm way beyond skeptical. Sword of Body and Mind is absolutely terrible. It offers no removal, no lifegain, no card advantage, and very limited protection from removal. There are way better options.

I literally laughed out loud. SoBM is far from terrible. It may not actually physically change your life total but it does gain you life, easily 2-5 a turn (or a whole lot more on a Batterskulled germ), by having your wolf step in front of a Goyf/Knight/Nacatl/Fish etc. It doesn't do much for card advantage true, but it can definitely get rid of problems before they happen. The protection is extremely relevant since it lets you swing past 90% of the field. Yes you don't get to stop real removal spells, but it doesn't really matter most of the time. You do get to stop your threat from being bounced by Jace and you get to kill Jace because the only things to step in front of it are usually Clique or something green.

On second thought... SoBM is bad. You guys play the other swords and I'll keep placing at every event I play in.

[Einherjer]

Agreed - I always play Jitte Batterskull SoBaM and depending on my mood / or when boarding a second Jitte or some other SoXaY - but SoBaM is mainbaord :)

[Anthem]

I literally laughed out loud. SoBM is far from terrible. It may not actually physically change your life total but it does gain you life, easily 2-5 a turn (or a whole lot more on a Batterskulled germ), by having your wolf step in front of a Goyf/Knight/Nacatl/Fish etc. It doesn't do much for card advantage true, but it can definitely get rid of problems before they happen. The protection is extremely relevant since it lets you swing past 90% of the field. Yes you don't get to stop real removal spells, but it doesn't really matter most of the time. You do get to stop your threat from being bounced by Jace and you get to kill Jace because the only things to step in front of it are usually Clique or something green.

On second thought... SoBM is bad. You guys play the other swords and I'll keep placing at every event I play in.

Tim, could you answer my earlier question about SoBM in all builds of Deadguy? Do you think a more creature-heavy version would benefit as much from SoBM as your more token-oriented build? During what matchups would SoBM have to leave, and for what?

No one is questioning your playskill, quite the opposite, I'm searching for your (and any) opinion on the circumstances where each sword would/wouldn't be viable. I think this question is pretty pivotal in regards to Deadguy as a deck.

[Tim the Enchanter]

I think SoBM is even better in a creature heavy build because it lets you keep your key creatures around while giving you free blockers to step up to every nasty that threatens your life total.

I don't like SoLS at all, unless your meta is 15%+ Bw. You have to have a creature in you yard to bring back. You then have to have open mana to play that guy again, just for him to probably die again next turn. Yes you stop StP, Path, and GftT, but you don't swing past almost any creatures, except SFM, Bob, and Germs, meaning that the likelihood of getting the life and your dude back are much slimmer.

SoFI is obviously good against Merfolk, but Merfolk is pretty much a bye anyway and SoBM is almost as good. SoBM is actually better if they have a 2+ lords out. It's ok versus NO Bant, but Pro-Green is really want you there too.

I board Sword of War and Peace. I bring it in against Zoo because Batterskull is almost dead against them since SFM will never ever live long enough to bring it in. Once it's on a dude, which isn't the easiest, all you need to do is get past Goyf/Nacatl. It's pretty handy against Burn as well. It should also come in against Uw Landstill because it drastically increases your clock and keeps them from using the only spot removal, if they don't play Shackles.

[CorpT]

SoBaM has been very, very good for me. I'm with Tim on almost all of the Sword choices. People seriously underestimate the protections with SoBaM.

[Einherjer]

Tim, mind posting your recent decklist?

[bokwinkle]

well, I've been screwing around with a deadguy list that splashes blue for brainstorm, misstep and Shadowmage Infiltrator. I went 1-2 with it at a local on Thursday...tweeked it a bit and took it to Jupiter Games for a 3k today. I was 5-1-1 in 7 rounds of swiss and made it to the top 8, with my only loss in the swiss coming from Dredge because i wasn't packing enough hate for it.

I played against Reanimator, Dredge, Merfolk, NO Bant (with Show and Tell), Blue Zoo, and ANT (I also drew into the top8 with an esperblade player). I lost in the top 8 to bant (no natural order) - poor mulligan choices, missplays, and massive land drawing (I saw 8 of my 21 land in both games) - it was a long day and my deck wasn't shuffled right after having it sorted for deck registration...oh well, still took home $125.

I'll post a link to the decklist and give a more thurough report sometime this week after I've had some time to sleep - but the basic message is that splashing blue does not make the deck weaker...and enlightened tutor into Phyrexian Metamorph is probably one of the best plays in magic against the current meta - metamorph simply handed me wins today...just amazing.

If I can play the deck as is for a few weeks and really tune it I think it easilly has a chance to be Tier 1 - as long as a player who is actually competent at gameplay is piloting the deck....unlike me, lol.

[Leto]

gratz to your Standing!

I am really looking forward for the Report and the List

[CorpT]

well, I've been screwing around with a deadguy list that splashes blue for brainstorm, misstep and Shadowmage Infiltrator.


Wait a minute. I thought talking about adding colors was verbotten?


If DeadGuy needs three colors to win, then for the sake of leading the discussion I'd rather archive this thread and everyone move to the rock thread.

[Einherjer]

Ye please, before you post a 3 color report here...post it in the esperblade.. this is meant to be DeadguyAle...not some blue ******** :P
Greetings

[Leto]

cut the crap and let him post his report ;)

I play around with a red-splash for over 6 Months now, and it would be called Deadguy too (if I can make it actually work^^) so stop this name-rant and wait til List and report are on.

[bokwinkle]

hahaa...no, it's a fair jab, I definately made those comments. But people that are already preaching about running misstep probably don't have room to complain about me splashing for a couple other blue cards.

I'll probably post my results in the esperblade thread and just drop a comment in here when I post it - but I'm sure I'll be laughed out of that thread as well since I don't 8 cantrips or force of will...but whatever works.

[CorpT]

hahaa...no, it's a fair jab, I definately made those comments. But people that are already preaching about running misstep probably don't have room to complain about me splashing for a couple other blue cards.

I'll probably post my results in the esperblade thread and just drop a comment in here when I post it - but I'm sure I'll be laughed out of that thread as well since I don't 8 cantrips or force of will...but whatever works.

The same as I would have if I had posted my Deadguy + Goyf deck in the Rock thread. Which was my point all along. I feel that play style is a much more of a determining factor in which thread to use than exactly what cards/colors are used.

[Rizso]

Really hope hivemind doesnt get more populare. Seem so fast and resilient. If it does we probly need to up the extirpate / Surgical Extraction count in the board even further.

[KobeBryan]

Really hope hivemind doesnt get more populare. Seem so fast and resilient. If it does we probly need to up the extirpate / Surgical Extraction count in the board even further.

Extirpates should be a 3-4 of in the SB anyways. with so many blue decks running rampant (not including hivemind), its essential to use it.

[movingtonewao]

OK my first proper match report. I posted this on mtgsalvation as well but figured there may be more traffic here so reposted it here as well. Would appreciate if anyone with clout could advise me on how to improve or how I can move on from here, as this was particularly demoralizing for me.

[deck]
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
4 Scrubland
6 Swamp

3 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Dark Confidant
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Go for the Throat
4 Thoughtseize
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Batterskull
4 Vindicate
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach

Sideboard
3 Engineered Plague
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Serenity
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Ghostly Prison
3 Bitterblossom

Legacy Tournament 24/7/11
Turnout: 32
Format: 5 swiss rounds with cut to T8
prizes: dual lands and wastelands for T4, sets of knight of the reliquary for T5-8.

Match 1: thopter sword/scepter chant (w/u control shell)

Game 1 (I was on the draw)

Opponent keeps 4 lands, 2 scepters and 1 spell snare.
Turn 1 he plays a land and passes. I dark ritual, hymn to tourach eats spell snare, thoughtseize resolves and sees TWO Isochron Scepter and a bunch of land so I discard scepter.

The big turn was when my opponent topdecks orim's chant on turn 3 and pulls off the combo. Game over as I have no instant speed artifact removal or Krosan Grip effects.

SB: -4 Swords to Plowshares, -1 Go for the Throat, +3 Phyrexian revoker, +1 Enlightened Tutor +1 Serenity, opponent none (thanks to opponent for telling me this after the match, he claims he didn't see green so assumes I had no instant speed answer like Krosan Grip, which was correct)

Game 2 (I was on the play)

Opponent keeps 5 lands, Swords to Plowshares and Isochron Scepter. I mull to 6 due to no land hand.
Turn 1 only lands by both players.
Turn 2 dark confidant resolves but eats a Swords to Plowshares. Turn 3 vindicate a basic plains and play Umezawa's jitte. I was hoping to keep him down to 2 lands, which was successful in that aspect.

Turn 4
a timely Thoughtseize sees a grip of Isochron Scepter,Tezzeret, the Seeker and Thopter Foundry as notable cards. Several turns of wasteland activations and draw go, then opponent pulls off combo.

0-2 (0-1)

Thoughts:

My opponent admitted he got lucky with topdecks (pulls off combo despite all the disruption). He expected me to sideboard Leyline of Sanctity which i did not have, but I sheepishly pretended I did because I was embarrassed at being blown out so quickly without much of a response.

My friend who was spectating pointed out that in G2 I should not have vindicated the plains and saved it for Isochron Scepter instead. However, a good opponent would just wait for counterspell mana up as he knows my only answer is vindicate. No answers to combo in MD/SB (instant artifact removal may have helped). I really didn't expect to lose to this deck.

Match 2: u/g/b/w psychatog + life from the loam a.k.a loam-a-tog

Game 1 (I was on the play):

T2 Umezawa's jitte eats force spike,
T3 vampire nighthawk resolves. Opponent intuitions for 3 accumulated knowledge.
T4 a second vampire nighthawk eats a 2nd force spike, opponent plays psychatog. EOT I shoot a swords to plowshares which sees mental misstep, but I have a 2nd
swords to plowshares which resolves.
T5 he passes the turn without a play and my Hymn to Tourach eats a hardcast Force of Will (I didn't see that coming).
All this while my Vampire Nighthawk has been beating down dilligently as a lone clock. He uses Cunning wish for Fact or Fiction with 2 cards in hand in response to my topdecked Hymn to Tourach which I was intending to discard his hand with. The flipped cards were Life From The Loam, counterspell, force spike,lonely sandbar, cunning wish. I split counterspell and force spike on one side and the rest in the other. He picks the counterspell pile and uses counterspell so I know his hand only contains force spike. I thought i was in good shape as long as he didn't get a Vedalken Shackles or Engineered Explosives because he has both Life from the Loam and Academy Ruins in his graveyard which could spell trouble. And as luck would have had it, he topdecked a cunning wish which finds Enlightened Tutor for vedalken shackles, and despite a topdecked Vindicate which bought me a turn, the Life from the Loam/lonely sandbar/academy ruins/
vedalken shackles engine wins with him at 5 life left.

SB: + 3 phyrexian revoker, +1 relic of progenitus, +3 bitterblossom, -1 Go for the Throat -3 Vampire Nighthawk -3 Gatekeeper of Malakir, opponent none as he was using a Cunning Wishboard

Game 2 (play):

T2 Stoneforge Mystic resolves and gets batterskull.
Next turn I "Vial" in batterskull, and then attempt a relic of progenitus that forces a mental mistep. Confidant eats a
counterspell.
I hardcast a Sword of Body and Mind which resolves. The Stoneforge Mystic picks it up and goes to town hand-in-hand with Batterskull. The combined beatdown eventually gets me there.

At this point there was 10 minutes left in the round.
Me: 'We might not be able to finish the last game'
Opponent: 'Of course we will'
Me: *uneasy look*

Game 3 (play):

Opponent keeps a slow hand apparantly, has no answers to the T2/T3 Stoneforge Mystic/batterskull combo, despite an Accumulated Knowledge in response. Eventually I stick a Bitterblossom and a Umezawa's Jitte. Thoughtseize reveals a hand full of land. I must say there was good sportsmanship on my opponent's part because he could have time-wasted and it would have ended in a draw.

2-1 (1-1)

Thoughts:

Due to recursion engine in this matchup, discard is less effective. G1 was lost due to a lack of a fast clock, Vampire Nighthawk is too slow. Combined with Swords to Plowshares on his Psychatog (which he made into a 3/4 to gain 3 life), the clock is even slower.

The Life from the Loam/Academy Ruins/Lonely Sandbar/random artifact recursion engine is scary, he had so many outs apparently, I learnt that Engineered Explosives, Vedalken Shackles, and Pernicious Deed (if i recall correctly) were all present in his deck afterwards.

In other words, I should have lost this match.

Match 3: ubg landstill

Game 1 (I was on the play):

T2 An attempted dark confidant eats Force of Will pitching a Brainstorm, T3 vampire nighthawk resolves. T4 and attempted 2nd vampire nighthawk gets counterspelled, and then opponent has T4 jace, the mind sculptor bouncing nighthawk. Subsequently a gatekeeper of malakir unkicked and a dark confidant resolve, a thoughtseize gets
mental misstepped and I got to see what he was hiding: a pernicious deed 3-for-1s and kills dark confidant, gatekeeper of malakir, and vampire nighthawk. Jace, the mind sculptor cleans up.

SB: -3 vampire nighthawk, -3 gatekeeper of malakir, -1 go for the throat, +3 phyrexian revoker, +3 bitterblossom, +1 enlightened tutor

My opponent said he didn't sideboard as he decided his MD was equipped to deal with creature strategies well.

Game 2 (I was on the play):

I kept what i felt was a god hand. Swamp go, Flooded Strand go.
T2 swamp, dark ritual (resolves), hymn (spell snare), dark confidant (Force of Will pitching Spell Snare). I slumped in my chair.
To make things worse, T3 he played mishra's factory and standstill and i broke it with a hymn to tourach which eats a Spell Snare after the Standstill trigger on T4. He then proceeds to play another Standstill and at this point there was an air of inevitability. Several wastelands hit and another mishra's factory eats my topdecked Swords to Plowshares, but my opponent draws into lands and lands jace, the mind sculptor with a full hand. Scoop.

0-2 (1-2)

Thoughts:

My friend pointed out that my opponent's list was exceedingly similar to PV's list from the GP.
2 back to back standstills was game-changing in G2.

Not sure what I could have done differently. This was quite bad.

Match 4: Artifact Stompy a.k.a MUD

Game 1 (I was on the play):

My opponents mulligans once.

T1
Swamp into dark ritual into Inquisition of Kozilek on turn 1 seeing a grip of ancient tomb, mishra's factory, lodestone golem, ancient tomb, island, chalice of the void) and picked chalice of the void. Finished the turn off with a Hymn to Tourach (I wish I had pulled this off in G2 of the last match).

He lays land and passes.

T2
I lay a Scrubland and pass, he lands mox diamond pitching mishra's factory, city of traitors and a Lodestone Golem. EOT Swords to Plowshares on the Lodestone Golem.

T3
His board is now left with ancient tomb, mox diamond, city of traitors. I vindicate the ancient tomb with another vindicate waiting in my hand.

He sees that I'm trying to blow out his mana base and plays an ancient tomb which he just topdecked, killing his own city of traitors.

T4
I show him my second Vindicate on the new Ancient Tomb, he mana screws.

T5
Stoneforge Mystic fetching Batterskull. He scoops.

SB: +1 ghostly prison, +1 Enlightened Tutor, +1 serenity, -3 vampire nighthawk.
After the match he tells me he just brought in more Chalice of the Void.

I would have brought in Engineered Plague but I didn't see any Goblin Welder.

Game 2 (I was on the draw):

I kept a land-heavy slow hand but with Serenity in it.

T1:
Ancient tomb - Phyrexian Revoker naming Stoneforge Mystic.
I lay land with no play.

T2:
Mishra's Factory lands for him. Phyrexian Revoker crashes in. (me @ 18 life)
I lay land with no play.

T3:
Adaptive Automaton naming horror enters play, he attacks with Mishra's Factory and Phyrexian Revoker (me @ 13 life)
I lay a land and kick a gatekeeper of malakir, he thinks for a bit and sacrifices the Phyrexian Revoker.

T4:
He goes for broke this turn. Lodestone Golem + Phyrexian Metamorph copying the golem. Now he has a total of 14 power on the board (5/3, 5/3, 2/2 (Adaptive automaton), 2/2 (mishra's factory)) while I have a lone gatekeeper of malakir.
I decide to drop my serenity now, and tap 4 lands to do so.

T5:
All in swing! 5/3, 5/3, 2/2, 2/2. Gatekeeper of malakir trades with mishra's factory and I fall to 1 life.
Serenity Resolves and 3-for-1s.

I then land back to back Vindicates on his lands while his hand has no gas. I stoneforge mystic into batterskull and he scoops before I even get to 'vial' batterskull into play.

2-0 (2-2)

Thoughts:

Despite the score I would say the games are rather close. I won G1 on the back of fast discard to take out all his gas, and G2 i kept a slow hand with serenity and fell to 1 life before stabilizing. I'm glad i cast that enchantment at exactly the right time.

Outcome:
Following this I dropped from the tournament as there was no chance of making T8 at 2-2, even if i won the next match at 3-2 it wouldn't be enough.

I then found out that the top4 were goblin belcher, blue zoo, zoo, and dark horizons (the decklists for the top4 can be found here (http://sgcardgames.com/viewtopic.php?t=51354))..

Any suggestions/comments/criticisms are welcome, with regards to my deck/sideboard/decision-making in game. I hope to improve myself as a pilot of this deck, thanks for reading!

[bokwinkle]

that's a lot of information on a report man - bummer on the finish, but at least you had a chance to pilot to a few wins.

---------

So rather than talk about blue specifically, I'll talk about the cards that really make this deck currently tick and my current stance on them.

First off, wasteland. The current meta is currently dominated by decks that are either 1 or 2 colors (that easilly dodge wasteland via basic fetching) or decks that run some ammount (4-8) of birds/noble hierarchs and/or 6-8 ponder/brainstorms to mana fix. In 8 rounds of play wasteland never helped me - even against land light decks like dredge and ANT. Of all of the decks that make up the current meta I only see a couple that would really be effected by wasteland. This won't stay this way forever, but currently everyone is finding ways to dodge wasteland. The only wasteland target that I was worried about all day was Maze of Ith, and I never saw it....plus I was packing vindicate. I've become thuroughly convinced that mana denial is no longer a viable option in the current format - plus the f'in card has jumped to $70.

Which leads me to Vindicate. It destroys equipment, land, and planeswalkers - but it's slow as death. I keep getting the feeling that this card is a sideboard card. I'd almost rather run Path to Exile in it's place, but I don't want 6 dead removal spells against combo. I want to push this card to board so badly...but sadly it's staying as a 2-of for me.

Vampire Nighthawk - I have confirmed that there are better creatures at the 3-drop spot than this guy. I didn't wish for him all day - he's small (slow clock and killable by cards with lightning in the title) and makes for awkward mana in decks that don't want to be dominate by black - he simply isn't worth it.

Mental Misstep - combined with 1cc discard and 1cc removal and a 2cmc finisher (stoneforge) this card meant that I never wanted accelleration all day long. The card was a beast against zoo, solid against combo, and extremely efficient at getting my discard spells to land...all while protecting bob and SFM from swords. This card was good all day long - I only boarded it out once, (against Fish).

1 cmc discard - I don't care if you run thoughtseize, cabal therapy, duress, IOK whatever...it protects turn 2 bob or SFM, gives you information about how to play against your opponent and acts as an offensive card against combo for disruption. And there are many times where it's simply a tempo blowout - because you take their turn 2 play and counter their turn 1 play with misstep. I simply would not play Bob without at least 6 1 cmc discard spells, regardless of Misstep becoming dominant in the format. The question becomes: if you run Bob, misstep, and maybe even bitterblossom, can you really run thoughtseize? I did run thoughtseize and I nearly killed myself in many games, and did kill myself a coulple times by forcing myself into conservative play because of low life. If Natural Order wasn't so prevelant in the meta I probably wouldn't run thoughtseize at all.

Stoneforge Package - SOFI, Jitte, and Batterskull are still the "must have" equipment. However, something that offers pro-green is also relevant since all of the blockers in the format are green. F&F offers some nice synergy with the other discard in our deck and can be a complete blowout if you're already drawing cards by allowing the deck to overcome it's late-game mana-hungry nature that is typical with decks that run equipment - I found that I could swing with the sword, then re-equip the sword to untapped creatures so that I could block with it as well. However, Sword of BM's ability to generate creatures to equip to, and a "secondary clock" (mill) is extremely valuable and it's interactions with extirpate should not be ignored - plus blue creatures are currently more common in the meta than black. I honestly don't think I have a preferance over the two Pro-Green swords atm. The only tipping point in favor of F&F is that it means that I have 4 protections in my deck instead of 3.

Enlightened Tutor - Play it, it's just that good. This card enables your deck to overcome so many bad matchups that I really don't really want to spend the time writing them all out. However, Phyrexian Metamorph won me games (and matches) all day long against all of the combo decks - and it's perfectly playable without blue mana....especially as a tutorable one-of. Plus it can go get bitterblossom against removal heavy decks or act as a 5th stoneforge when you need an equipment other than batterskull. This is the swiss army knife for this deck, it's 100% playable despite being a "top-deck tutor".

Acceleration - generally I don't think it's needed unless you are running an alternate finisher that is 4cmc or more. I don't think it's worth the card disadvantage when you can run so many 1cmc spells.

that just leaves bob and swords - and we know they're good.

I'll talk about board cards later.

[workingdude]

that's a lot of information on a report man - bummer on the finish, but at least you had a chance to pilot to a few wins.
First off, wasteland. The current meta is currently dominated by decks that are either 1 or 2 colors (that easilly dodge wasteland via basic fetching) or decks that run some ammount (4-8) of birds/noble hierarchs and/or 6-8 ponder/brainstorms to mana fix. In 8 rounds of play wasteland never helped me - even against land light decks like dredge and ANT. Of all of the decks that make up the current meta I only see a couple that would really be effected by wasteland. This won't stay this way forever, but currently everyone is finding ways to dodge wasteland. The only wasteland target that I was worried about all day was Maze of Ith, and I never saw it....plus I was packing vindicate. I've become thuroughly convinced that mana denial is no longer a viable option in the current format - plus the f'in card has jumped to $70.

So what is your suggestions on the # of wastelands to run? I have been running 3 because I have a color hungry deck, but I agree with a lot of your points.



Mental Misstep - combined with 1cc discard and 1cc removal and a 2cmc finisher (stoneforge) this card meant that I never wanted accelleration all day long. The card was a beast against zoo, solid against combo, and extremely efficient at getting my discard spells to land...all while protecting bob and SFM from swords. This card was good all day long - I only boarded it out once, (against Fish).

1 cmc discard - I don't care if you run thoughtseize, cabal therapy, duress, IOK whatever...it protects turn 2 bob or SFM, gives you information about how to play against your opponent and acts as an offensive card against combo for disruption. And there are many times where it's simply a tempo blowout - because you take their turn 2 play and counter their turn 1 play with misstep. I simply would not play Bob without at least 6 1 cmc discard spells, regardless of Misstep becoming dominant in the format. The question becomes: if you run Bob, misstep, and maybe even bitterblossom, can you really run thoughtseize? I did run thoughtseize and I nearly killed myself in many games, and did kill myself a coulple times by forcing myself into conservative play because of low life. If Natural Order wasn't so prevelant in the meta I probably wouldn't run thoughtseize at all.

Stoneforge Package - SOFI, Jitte, and Batterskull are still the "must have" equipment. However, something that offers pro-green is also relevant since all of the blockers in the format are green. F&F offers some nice synergy with the other discard in our deck and can be a complete blowout if you're already drawing cards by allowing the deck to overcome it's late-game mana-hungry nature that is typical with decks that run equipment - I found that I could swing with the sword, then re-equip the sword to untapped creatures so that I could block with it as well. However, Sword of BM's ability to generate creatures to equip to, and a "secondary clock" (mill) is extremely valuable and it's interactions with extirpate should not be ignored - plus blue creatures are currently more common in the meta than black. I honestly don't think I have a preferance over the two Pro-Green swords atm. The only tipping point in favor of F&F is that it means that I have 4 protections in my deck instead of 3.

Enlightened Tutor - Play it, it's just that good. This card enables your deck to overcome so many bad matchups that I really don't really want to spend the time writing them all out. However, Phyrexian Metamorph won me games (and matches) all day long against all of the combo decks - and it's perfectly playable without blue mana....especially as a tutorable one-of. Plus it can go get bitterblossom against removal heavy decks or act as a 5th stoneforge when you need an equipment other than batterskull. This is the swiss army knife for this deck, it's 100% playable despite being a "top-deck tutor".

I’m beginning to shift towards your thinking about 1cmc discard. I used to relish the idea of chrome moxing out a 2 drop that would immediately make up for the card disadvantage, but the format is slower now and the faster decks are better dealt with using discard.

Any changes on # of Etutor mainboard?

Also, I feel like sensei’s divining top would be a nice addition to your sort of list as well (I suppose it fights for spots with brainstorm). It works well with enlightened tutor for when you need the enchantment now, or have a small window to capitalize on a tapped out opponent or something.
Also, your sideboard definitely left you vulnerable against dredge.

[movingtonewao]

thanks so much for taking the time and energy to explain the cards to me guys, I really appreciate it. Bokwinkle, I'll be awaiting your next post about the board cards then :)

EDIT: I didn't manage to face any dredge this time round, I figured Ghostly Prison and Engineered Plague naming Spirit or Horror can hurt them quite a bit.
I am now considering Chains of Mephistopheles as an answer to card draw, but it seems rather cheesy.

Also, if its not too much trouble, hope the experienced dudes can let me know how you would change my deck around with some reasoning if possible, as I would likely be trying for the same tournament again next month with this deck (its a monthly-to-bimonthly series, with appropriate breaks during holiday months).

[bokwinkle]

So what is your suggestions on the # of wastelands to run? I have been running 3 because I have a color hungry deck, but I agree with a lot of your points..

My thoughts on wastelands? Well, it's a tough call. If you are determined to run 2 colors then wasteland generally won't hurt you (very often), so it doesn't make sense to really remove them from the list. However, their effectiveness is no longer garunteed without the use of other mana denial strategies to back them up. For instance, you could run a 1-of crucible to tutor for with E-Tutor, or run Hymns, 4 Vindicates, etc.. Mana denial is possible when combined with discard and Misstep - I just feel like it's a risky strategy to employ because it will take a up a ton of space in the deck that will potentially be dead very quickly if you don't see it at the right time.

Personally, I'd rather scrap the wastelands and go to a third color while still being relatively wasteland resistant yourself (you can run 7-8 basics and 6-7 fetches in a 3-color deck without too many issues). Even if you want to be color greedy in a 2-color build - with something like Obliterators, hymns, and/or Crusaders scrapping wasteland may prove to be more helpful than keeping it.


I’m beginning to shift towards your thinking about 1cmc discard. I used to relish the idea of chrome moxing out a 2 drop that would immediately make up for the card disadvantage, but the format is slower now and the faster decks are better dealt with using discard..

Well, honestly, I loved Dark Ritual - it was soooo good in so many games. Accelleration into something broken is how a lot of decks are winning right now - the question becomes, can we do it better than they can? I don't think we can, because our accelleration is straight up card disadvantage - whereas birds and hierarchs can be equiped, chumped, carry swords, etc.. That's not to say that accelleration is off limits to us because other decks do it better...but I'd rather focus on what we do best - which is card advantage and control through discard and removal. If we control the game in the first 1-4 turns all accelleration becomes dead and suddenly we create a situation where these decks that run accelleration have a lot of dead cards.

All of that being said - I still love the 2 mana spells that net card advantage...I'd just rather see them on turn 2, backed up by Misstep or t1 discard.


Any changes on # of Etutor mainboard? .

Everyone keeps asking me that :) Anyone that looks at my list always says I should up the E-tutors in the main deck - from Pro's to scrubs...it's pretty universal. The only person I've ever seen run a 1-of E-tutor (other than me) also posts in this forum and has Top-8'd a large event with his build of deadguy (tim the enchanter). When I was fishing his list, I loved the 1-of E-tutor so much that I felt like I had to find a way to incorporate into any DGA build that I made.

The thing with the 1-of is this - it's unobtrusive while turning all of my 1-of's into 2-of's. Ultimately E-tutor is still card disadvantage, so I like to temper how much of that I include in the maindeck...plus my targets are pretty limited too (7 total). Before the deck is brought to another big tourney this may change to a 2-of, but I haven't really streamlined it enough to tell for sure yet. I'll probably be looking to open up a couple more sideboard slots too, so this is probably one of the ways I'll do it.


Also, I feel like sensei’s divining top would be a nice addition to your sort of list as well (I suppose it fights for spots with brainstorm). It works well with enlightened tutor for when you need the enchantment now, or have a small window to capitalize on a tapped out opponent or something.

Well...Yes. The problem I have with top is that it's actually card disadvantage, and I generally don't have the patience to do it every turn...lol. There are serious upsides to top though, especially if I'm getting there with a Finkle/Bob/SoFI already, and especially when I basically run 12 maindeck shuffle effects....plus it's tutorable with E-tutor. The way I generally look at it is this: Top is awesome with Finkle/Bob/SoFI when brainstorm really starts to become poor...however, Brainstorm allows me to actually get Finkle/Bob/SoFI onto the board...and if I have one on the board (that is staying) then I'm probably already winning anyway. So top is winmore? Sounds wierd to say, but I guess that's what I'm saying.

All of that being said, top should probably be in the list somewhere, and if it was 2-colors it seems like a no-brainer.


Also, your sideboard definitely left you vulnerable against dredge.

Oh, no doubt. I new 1 crypt, 1 Prison, and 1 Plague wasn't going to get me there against dredge - especially since Prison and Plague were easilly answerable by Woodfall Primus or Angel of Despair. My thinking was that I could bounce Batterskull to get rid of crypts and I might be able to pull off a win if I could land T1 discard or misstep against early discard outlets....I was wrong...lol...and Ancient grudge was simply a beating.

---------------

By the way, my recent list and match report is in the Esperblade thread (in the established deck section).

[Anthem]

thanks so much for taking the time and energy to explain the cards to me guys, I really appreciate it. Bokwinkle, I'll be awaiting your next post about the board cards then :)

EDIT: I didn't manage to face any dredge this time round, I figured Ghostly Prison and Engineered Plague naming Spirit or Horror can hurt them quite a bit.
I am now considering Chains of Mephistopheles as an answer to card draw, but it seems rather cheesy.

Also, if its not too much trouble, hope the experienced dudes can let me know how you would change my deck around with some reasoning if possible, as I would likely be trying for the same tournament again next month with this deck (its a monthly-to-bimonthly series, with appropriate breaks during holiday months).

IMO Engineered Plague is useless. There are just better options. Deadguy has a positive matchup against Fish, Ghostly Prison does a similar job (if not better) against Goblins and Zombie tokens, etc. In that spot I would recommend Perish. Trust me, in this green-heavy format you'll love it, especially against an overextending Zoo player. 3-1 against them is game.

[bokwinkle]

IMO Engineered Plague is useless. There are just better options. Deadguy has a positive matchup against Fish, Ghostly Prison does a similar job (if not better) against Goblins and Zombie tokens, etc. In that spot I would recommend Perish. Trust me, in this green-heavy format you'll love it, especially against an overextending Zoo player. 3-1 against them is game.

I generally agree here. I've been steadilly trimming Plague from my 75 - I started with 4 and I just keep cutting them. Also, Plague's are generally only extremely effective if you land 2. Landing 1 just isn't enough to win generally...it just buys time.

However, perish's effectiveness is generally declining as well. Rock decks have taken a strong decline and zoo is going more and more red every day and some decks are utilizing Jace as a finisher. The best thing Perish has going for it is it kills Progenitus (IMHO). I've been generally unhappy with Perish these days - most times I just want a path or edict effect.

[Richard Cheese]

I generally agree here. I've been steadilly trimming Plague from my 75 - I started with 4 and I just keep cutting them. Also, Plague's are generally only extremely effective if you land 2. Landing 1 just isn't enough to win generally...it just buys time.

However, perish's effectiveness is generally declining as well. Rock decks have taken a strong decline and zoo is going more and more red every day and some decks are utilizing Jace as a finisher. The best thing Perish has going for it is it kills Progenitus (IMHO). I've been generally unhappy with Perish these days - most times I just want a path or edict effect.

Retribution of the Meek is arguably better than Perish here. No harder to cast, hits Progenitus, but also Emrakul (F-ing Hive Mind is everywhere now). The only drawback is that there will be times where you can't nail KotR or Goyf, but it's when it does hit them that they're actually threatening anyway.

[Tim the Enchanter]

Tim, mind posting your recent decklist?

Artifacts
1 Batterskull
3 Chrome Mox
1 Sword of Body and Mind

Artifact Creatures
2 Tidehollow Sculler

Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
2 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Stoneforge Mystic

Instants
1 Diabolic Edict
3 Swords to Plowshares

Legendary Artifacts
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Planeswalkers
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Sorceries
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 Vindicate

Tribal Enchantments
3 Bitterblossom

Basic Lands
1 Plains
5 Swamp

Lands
4 Marsh Flats
2 Polluted Delta
4 Scrubland
3 Wasteland

Sideboard:
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Sword of War and Peace
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Gatekeeper of Malakir
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Ghostly Prison
2 Extirpate
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Perish

[bokwinkle]

Dick, that's super secret tech that you're not supposed to be spreading! lol.

I mentioned that card to a very good local player and he started running it in his white lists...and just recently I've seen it start popping up in other sideboards as well. Everything you just said about it is absolutely true. Also, 3/4 goyfs and 3/3 Knights are pretty rare and unthreatening. Also, the thing that you didn't mention is that it kills Batterskull equipped creatures.

---------

Tim, I'm surprised you've cut E-Tutor from your 75.

[Tim the Enchanter]

Tim, I'm surprised you've cut E-Tutor from your 75.

I just didn't have enough slots for it in the board. I was having a really hard time trying to figure out the board the night before since it was a completely unknown meta. I hadn't touched the deck since Baltimore, or really played any Magic in general, and my buddies told me about the event the day before it.

With the move to Extirpate over artifact yard hate I figured E Tutor may not be as good as it used to be for me. Plus I had cut Null Rod, which after the event started and I saw like 3 Affinity decks plus MUD I wished I hadn't. I don't think I would've boarded it in that day at all though. I might go back to it and drop the Gatekeeper for a one of Phyrexian Metamorph though.

[Rizso]

I wouldnt go for Retribution instead of perish but guess it depends on meta if you dont have lot of elves or Mavericks in your meta it might be a go. But for now i prefair the Perish over the Retribution as Maverick and elves are doing good in my meta.

[bokwinkle]

Well, gravehate is important, I'm struggling with that too atm. Extirpate seems like the right card for the job, but I can't justify running it when I can tutor for Metamorph to shore up matches against reanimator, NO, or Show and Tell - and extirpate is really only good against reanimator. Plus E-Tutor gives me more outs to ANT, and can help in some of my aggro MU's...something Extirpate doesn't really do. The downside, of course, is that the dredge MU is pretty abysmal with basically one grave hate card.


I wouldnt go for Retribution instead of perish but guess it depends on meta if you dont have lot of elves or Mavericks in your meta it might be a go. But for now i prefair the Perish over the Retribution as Maverick and elves are doing good in my meta.

Well, I've heard a lot of talk of elves doing well, but I haven't actually played against them in a while. I guess my thinking is that if I can play about 10 targeting removal spells + discard and misstep elves shouldn't be a tough matchup regardless of whether or not I have perish.

[Rizso]

Extirpate and surgical extraction is fine against hive mind and dredge as well, sean won alot of games against hivemind cos he extracted on thoes intuitions. TBH crypts arent really good against dredge either, a jailer would be way better running then the crypts if really want to fight the dredge decks.

But really the board can only be 15 cards and there is just to many decks to have board against everything. So thoes card should imo be against dredge, zoo, natural order and combo with spells. Ethersworn cannonist does work against both storm and hive mind.

[Anthem]

Have people given up on Oblivion Ring? I haven't seen much of it in sideboards these days. As for Perish v Retribution of the Meek, I'm definitely going to be weighing their usefulness in the sideboards to come. That's a tough one.

I always run 3 Extirpate, and have been thinking about 4 since I can't tutor it. It ruins so much of this meta.

I've been looking at Stillmoon Cavalier again. I remember being told he wasn't optimal, but the protections and ability to Fly/First Strike seem tempting, plus the synergy with SoBM and Chrome Mox, though against Elspeth. Would it also be because he can't get across the red zone very well?

[Einherjer]

Well Ill show the list I am playing at the moment, its a bit... white :)

lets start with the Manabase:

4 Scrubland
3 Fetid Heath
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
3 Swamps
3 Plains

As an accelerator I use:

3 Chrome mox
I tried everything, mox, ritual and aether vial and I gotta say I like this most for a controldeck like this.

Creatures

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
2 Mirran Crusader

Ye, the 2 must haves: Confi and SFM, ofc a playset, and 2 Mirran Crusader as final equipbearer

Artefacts

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa´s Jitte
1 Sword of Body and Mind

I think its quite obvious: The best equips for a deck like this, maybe I add SoFaI here as a 61th card... maybe...

Discard

4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Duress
2 Inquisition of Kozilek

Ye, as said earlier I dont like Thoughtseize, thats why I split Duress and Inqui

Removal

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate

Ye, great removals, 4off each.

Specialities

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Bitterblossom
2 Mental Misstep

Both very nice cards, that can change the boardsituation completly.

What you think of this.. Its actually been working quite well, nothing was unwinnable(ok dredge and combo game 1 :) ) theres just one thing im "missing" comparing to other lists - the sac via edict or gatekeeper... How would you squeeze it in? And what would you use? What I was thinking:
-2 MM +2 Gatekeeper?
or rather - 2 Mirran Crusader + 2 Gatekeeper?
What would you suggest? Thanks and Greetings

Edit: And where to squeeze in Senseis Divining Top?

[bokwinkle]

Have people given up on Oblivion Ring? I haven't seen much of it in sideboards these days.

No, I haven't given up on it. The downside is that it's foiled by much of the same hate that our win-con's are (Qasali Pridemage, K-Grip, etc), so it's value has gone down IMHO. Also, it doesn't answer land like Vindicate does. So ultimately it's less versatility for a potentially less permenent disruption piece. It obviously has some advantages in terms of dealing with Emmy, coming in off SNT, and being tutorable though, so like I say...I haven't given up on it...but I'm having a more difficult time justifying it, especially since I'm considering removing wastelands from my 75.


I always run 3 Extirpate, and have been thinking about 4 since I can't tutor it. It ruins so much of this meta.

Yes and no. The problem I have with extirpate is that it doesn't actually answer combo. If you can make them discard a combo piece then it becomes a valuable card, but if you don't see a discard spell before your opponent goes off then the card is completely dead. Also, if they brainstorm and hide their combo pieces from your discard the extirpate value goes down even further. Also, much of the combo decks in the meta are now showing some redundancy with combo pieces - Sneak Show is one example, the idea of running NO and Show and Tell together is another, Reanimator is full of redundancy...you get the idea. So, generally being proactive against the current field of combo isn't necessarilly going to get you there - generally I'm finding that reaction is better in most situations.



I've been looking at Stillmoon Cavalier again. I remember being told he wasn't optimal, but the protections and ability to Fly/First Strike seem tempting, plus the synergy with SoBM and Chrome Mox, though against Elspeth. Would it also be because he can't get across the red zone very well?

The problem I currently have with stillmoon is that he's mana intensive in a deck that already mana intensive. Also, cards with Lightning in the title are becoming more prevelant in the meta. I think the idea that his protections don't play with Elspeth and Mom is generally irrelevent in most matchups - especially Elspeth since it's just as easy for her to make tokens and jump them instead. And in a lot of matchups mom is going to be trying to give protection from white anyway, so the fact that she can't target Stillmoon becomes highly irrelevant. Generally, IMHO, the only place where the Mom/Stillmoon interaction really impacts gameplay is against decks that run Bolts or Lavamancer (Trash, RUG, Zoo, etc)...so if you are currently running mom to shore up some of those matches then you'd need to do some re-thinking if you run stillmoon.

That being said - Bant has no way to deal with this guy, neither do any of the combo decks in the meta. If nothing else, I think that makes this card better than at least Vampire Nighthawk (who also dies to lightning and has mana issues of his own), and maybe even crusader since he at least dodges removal and offers evasion. However, that's not where the superiority ends...because the card has all of the evasion of nighthawk, plus the resiliency, plus it's easier to cast. I think the other thing to be considered is how well this card pairs with SoFI - 4 protections is nothing to sneeze at....of course that doesn't include green....but the BM sword seems like a logical choice against the bant builds anyway. Unfortunately there isn't a sword that offers pro Red and Green or this dude would be even better. Generally though, I think the Pro-Green is something that isn't that important for Stillmoon, since he can jump - and green removal isn't prevelant in legacy (yet).

More than anything I think Stillmoon really shines when there's an opposing Knight of the Reliquary - the ability to just stall the game indefinately is a definate plus for us with all of our late game card advantage.

In the current meta, with equipment, I think stillmoon is a no-brainer for anyone that is using nighthawk...but if you use him in lieu of nighthawk you need to consider the fact that you're loosing the lifelink, and therefore take another look at cards like thoughtseize and bitterblossom. Also, you should take another look at what equipment you're using, since generally you don't want to double up protections, since this is the guy that is probably going to be doing most of the heavy lifting in the deck.

I think you are absolutely correct to be looking at this guy again.


What you think of this.. Its actually been working quite well, nothing was unwinnable(ok dredge and combo game 1 :) ) theres just one thing im "missing" comparing to other lists - the sac via edict or gatekeeper... How would you squeeze it in? And what would you use? What I was thinking:
-2 MM +2 Gatekeeper?
or rather - 2 Mirran Crusader + 2 Gatekeeper?
What would you suggest? Thanks and Greetings

Edit: And where to squeeze in Senseis Divining Top?

Gatekeeper I think is generally a bad idea and greedy for a deck already running elspeth and crusader. You can always run Edicts in the board if you really think you need them, but I'm more prone to suggesting Phyrexian Metamorph anyway - it's easier to cast, has more versatility, tutorable, and answers most of the threats that you need edict effects for anyway.

If you're dying for Top then I'd probably just look for an E-Tutor package since you're already running Bitterblossom, Moxen, and 3 equipment. Also, E-Tutor makes a lot of sense in a deck that is already going to a heavier white build.

IMHO, E-Tutor is a straight swap for bitterblossom, and/or you can cut your vindicates to 2 pretty easilly as well - if you felt like you were missing the removal you could replace one of them with O-Ring. So...

-1 Bitterblossom
-2 Vindicate

+1 E-Tutor
+1 Oblivion Ring
+1 Sensei's Divining Top

You could even cut a second bitterblossom for a second tutor if you found that the deck could support it. Essentially, you still have the same chances of landing a turn 2 Bitterblossom OR the same chances of getting that permanent removal that you need to answer a troublesome Jace or equipment....all while giving you a way to run top without disturbing the versatility that your deck already has. This is one of the reasons I love E-Tutor.

This suggestion is pretty similar to what I'm doing:

1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Bitterblossom
1 E-Tutor

And the Revoker may go to the board in favor of another E-Tutor. Basically, in my deck, the Metamorph and Revoker are taking the place of Vindicates, they aren't straight up removal, but they do serve as comperable answers to many of the threats that I'm running vindicate for - but they have the added bonus of being able to carry swords, and upping the creature count in our deck is pretty crucial.

[Einherjer]

I am really sorry and I dont wanna look as I didnt appreciate your knowledge about DGA but what would you do for DiviningTop if I dont want Enlightened Tutor at all, I had him once, I dont like him sorry, what changes would you like then?

+1 Top or +2 anyways?

[bokwinkle]

There's nothing wrong with disliking E-Tutor, it's strictly a preferance call. It is card disadvantage after all, and it's relatively slow, it was a tough sell for me at first too.

If you don't want to run E-tutor at all I'd probably do a straight swap for Vindicates for them (2 for 2). I know when I first ran the deck I thought I couldn't live without 4 vindicates, but I've found that as long as I have some Path's in the sideboard that Vindicate really isn't all the important anymore (at least in my meta), since we already have wasteland to deal with troublesome lands, and discard for everything else - generally I've found that vindicates were the most sided out card throughout the past few months of me playign this deck.

[Einherjer]

Oh damnit I must sound like a little nerd...sorry...really sorry.... what if I dont wanna give out Vindicates? Because actually I cant life without them :) Too many decks in my meta where they are the only winoption preboard? Thaaank you very much :) I was thinking of -1 cc1 Discard and... maybe 1 land

[bokwinkle]

haha...yeah, discard and land were probably my next suggestion as well. Discard can probably go to a minimum of 6, but I would caution against cutting your 1cmc discard too deep - it really is extremely valuable when protecting your threats. Also, with moxen I wouldn't feel terrible about going to as few as 21 land...which could probably be 20 if you weren't running elspeth. Land is especially easy to cut when you're adding top too.

Just out of curiosity - what in your meta is so dominant and is only answerable by Vindicate?

[Einherjer]

^^ my meta contains most likely of my friends and beating Affinity without Vindicate is kinda...brutal, same for Enchantress, but ok I exegerated when saying its a 100% but you know... I bought it 1 week ago - i know its no argument but still :) Thanks for you patience bud, once Im home from Oxford where I am atm (like back on Monday) or earlier when I got time, ill post my Decklist again and yeah...
I got another question: Im trading witht he locals tomorrow evening...
They want my Merrowset... and maybe my Aether Vialset....

And yeah I need from them Scrubland, SoFaI; Top...

What should i suggest?
like Merrow+Vial= 1 Scrub 1 SoFai + 2 Top
Or what? any suggestions?

Thanks

[Rizso]

I just got my foiled Phyrexian Crusader's so time to try them out against red based aggro.

[Namida]

Yes and no. The problem I have with extirpate is that it doesn't actually answer combo. If you can make them discard a combo piece then it becomes a valuable card, but if you don't see a discard spell before your opponent goes off then the card is completely dead. Also, if they brainstorm and hide their combo pieces from your discard the extirpate value goes down even further. Also, much of the combo decks in the meta are now showing some redundancy with combo pieces - Sneak Show is one example, the idea of running NO and Show and Tell together is another, Reanimator is full of redundancy...you get the idea. So, generally being proactive against the current field of combo isn't necessarilly going to get you there - generally I'm finding that reaction is better in most situations.

This reminds me of a situation I observed a few weeks ago. I cobbled together a WB deck and gave it to my friend to play in his first Legacy Tournament. He didn't win much, but the one match that he did win...well, let me tell you. He lost Game 1, and sided in Extirpate. In Games 2-3, he won because he Extirpated Brainstorm. He thought that he was being slick by removing all the Brainstorms from his opponent's deck...But in reality, what he was actually doing was crippling his opponent by forcing the shuffle. He'd play a discard spell, and when his opponent Brainstormed in response to hide his best cards, my friend would just cast Extirpate. It was brutal. In Game 2, the friend hit a Brainstorm after casting Thoughtseize to see that his opponent had another Brainstorm in hand. The real issue was that the opponent Brainstormed his combo cards away since he had Spell Pierce in hand to counter any counterable spell, untap, cast Brainstorm to draw his combo, and have the mana to win on the same turn. In Game 3, the opponent hid two crucial lands from a Hymn to Tourach just to have them shuffled away. Is that even remotely viable as a strategy, or was it just "something that happened?"

[movingtonewao]

wow seriously that's quite a grand story! Well it's a mini 2-card combo but it sounds really neat. Until the blue players start figuring out that you're up to such a 'dirty trick', i guess there's no harm trying it out :)

[Einherjer]

Ye ive been thinking of including 2 extirpate mainboard... sometimes I cast it at 1st turn fetch :) what you think guys?

[from Cairo]

Ye ive been thinking of including 2 extirpate mainboard... sometimes I cast it at 1st turn fetch :) what you think guys?

Surgical Extraction seems better (being able to cast for free after T1 TS/IoK or T2 Hymn), it's less of a tempo hit/investment and even it still seems weak for MB slots.

[fallenphoenix]

wow seriously that's quite a grand story! Well it's a mini 2-card combo but it sounds really neat. Until the blue players start figuring out that you're up to such a 'dirty trick', i guess there's no harm trying it out :)


That's kind of an old hat though, this move has been decent vs combo since the printing of Extirpate and been executed more regularly since Thoughtseize redefined 1CC-discard.


Ye ive been thinking of including 2 extirpate mainboard... sometimes I cast it at 1st turn fetch :) what you think guys?


If you want that maindeck, I'd recommend Surgical Extraction, because it's much better to know the content of their hand before extracting. If you just extirpate a fetch you might randomly screw them, but more often than not you will just waste a card to thin their deck a little bit (especially given how enemy-fetchlands have greatly increased diversity among fetches).
With t1 discard into Surgical Extraction you at least make sure to hit a card that actually hurts them and it can all be done on turn one (tyvm, phyrexian mana).

/€dith: Going afk for half an hour will get you ninja'd, Ill tell you that... :D

Then again, I wouldn't recommend MD Extraction/Extirpate unless Dredge/Reanimator/Loam is a major compound of your metagame. Against combo there are better cards with broader application.
All of this has been discussed over and over again (for several decks) since Extirpate has been printed and overall the conclusion is that you will randomly draw it against Zoo or [insert-control-deck-du-jour-here] and it will screw you instead of the opponent.

[Rizso]

Have replaced all my mirran crusaders for phyrexian obliterators now and added phyrexian crusader in the board. Having problem finding Fetid Heaths in foil.

4 Stoneforge
4 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
2 Phyrexian Obliterator

3 Mental Misstep
2 Phyrexian Arena
4 Swords to plowshare
4 Vindicate
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Body and Mind

3 Chrome Mox
4 Swamps
4 Scrublands
4 Marsh Flats
3 Fetid Heath
4 Wastelands

board atm
3 Phyrexian Crusader
2 Perish
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Sword of War and Peace

[Einherjer]

What about saying a bit about your list? no?
Nah nvm then ill say something.
You are playing what I would consider as "new traditional DeadguyAle" much black, not much white. I personally dont like it that much but ok. How do you find 4 Gatekeepers? Isnt this a bit over the top? Id advise to play 2-3.
With such a heavyblack manabase, I think its ok running 2 Obliterators.. even though I dont consider them as useful as a Mirran Crusader, because you can just shoot them with StP (ok you can do that with mirran too) and he doesnt have that much Evasion with your Equipments, but the good point of him, even without Equipments hes kinda nice to be honest. So ye, a decent choice.
Your Discard looks pretty good aswell, and you chose Chrome Mox <3 :)
But now some other questions: What do you think of 3 Mental Misstep? Are they worth it? Do they provide enough tempo?
And why the hell 2 Phyrexian Arenas, arent 4 Confis enough?
What else I am worried about your deck is the life... You got 4 Confi ( 2 Obliterator in deck), 2 Arena and 4 TS - How does this work out? Is it ok? Or do you think it hits you too high?

Greetings

[Rizso]

Lifespan on Confidants arent the longest and I have found most matchups are won by drawing more then 1 card per turn. Obliterator got enought Evasion for equipments trample + sacrificing permanents when taking damage. As for the life, as long removing creature damage with removal and Gatekeepers it works fine. Against the red based decks I have 3 Phyrexian Crusaders and a Sword of war and Peace against them in an additional to Obliterators, batterskull and Jitte. The Obliterator dont need the swords to be good and it dont get killed by Gempalm incinerator, Grim Lavamancer or Bolt as easy unlike mirran Crusader.

Missteps are great to some degree. A card that is easy to board out when its bad and being very good when its good. The self made damage might be Suicidal but I like it. Its not like TS is good against the red Burn based decks and a few are boarded out. The curve is 1.38 so still lower then 1.5 damage per card drawn from bob as well I do run less fetchlands so will take less damage from fetching. As long as able to trade, chump and 2 for 1 them the lifeloss is ok. Using mostly the Misstep for Protection rather then Tempo. Like wont be countering a Nacatle if I have multiple sword / vindicate / Gatekeeper in my hand, chance of having more then just 1 of them is quite big.

For the Arena, if I could run 8 dark Condidants I would but now thats not legal:P

I have been liking the gatekeepers very much, having Maverick everywhere as well as random goblin, merfolk and Iona Decks I like having more then just sword for removal. It also adds to the card advantech approach the deck is following

Vindicate is by far the most card I do imprint on my Chrome early moxes.

[Einherjer]

I totally agree with you on the most points... but the Arena... Meh :) Maybe I just dont like it, why dont you add 2 Tops in this spot? Provide nice CQ and can dodge removal. Thats what Id do.

[Rizso]

Dont really run enought fetch for top nor would I like to run more fetch. And I dont want to be more affected by Missteps. Also Arena dodges Misstep but also the more importantly it dodge spellsnare wich is probly the best counter spell against me / us. It has wooping 17 maindecked targets.

[Tacosnape]

I don't necessarily dislike Phyrexian Arena here. It does sort of what Jace, The Mind Sculptor does for some BUG/Team Americaish lists. Lets your 1-for-1 game be a significantly better strategy. Conceptually, it intrigues me.

I have two questions about your list, Rizso:

1. Why are you running Fetid Heath without Mirran Crusader in your list? I can't see a reason for it unless you need to hit double white for some reason.

2. With Misstep, Thoughtseize, Arena, Confidant, no Top manipulation, and a high curve, how are you surviving your own power?

[Rizso]

The curve before with crusaders instead of the Obliterators was 1.35 and 1 .38 after.

You are indeed correct with the Heaths, They are kind of a left over from before. But they do smooth out the mana incase you have to imprint a white card onto the Chrome Mox. So might change one out for a an additional basic swamp. Also lets me cast 2 white spells from the land alone with no other white source.

I had more problems with My own health before when I ran with Bitterblossom in the list. But i choose rather then using blossoms I want to use my life points to push through a active stoneforge / Obliterator or draw extra cards then geting thoes awesome faeries.

[raharu]

Is Mother of Runes still decent? Playing a list with a lot of active distuption and a number of Mental Missteps It could lead to some decent opening plays (Mom, misstep the removal, Thoughtseise, either take the removal or don't see any, next turn Surgical Extraction > mom) and outside of walling it protects the Confidants/ lets mystic stay on the board to make Batterskull more removal-evasive. This is what I ended up with:

20 Permanents
Mother of Runes x4
Stoneforge Mystic x4
Dark Confidant x4
Batterskull x2
Sword of Feast and Famine x1
Jitte x1
Sensei’s Diving Topx2
Bitterblossoom x2


18 non permanents
Inquisition x3
Thoughtseize x3
Hymn x3
Surgical Extraction x2
Swords to Plowshares x4
Mental Misstep x3

Good, bad, trash?

[Surak]

Ez all, I'm new to the board, I read a lot of the topic, but I still have a few questions:

Is gatekeeper of malakir really that good in this deck? isn't geth's verdict / diabolic edict a better choice (I've seen it in some lists, but the question is really about the gatekeeper) isn't it to black mana expensive to play? or do the dual take good care?
I also want to run mom, good or bad choice? 3 or 4 times?

[Leto]

Main reason for Gatekeeper, you get a 2/2, your opponent looses a Creature. Board-Impact and CA in one. The costs are the other side, my deck supports it via Duals and Fetid Heath, other Decks don't. Try it out with your deck and make your decision

[Einherjer]

I wrote a primer, a bit time ago which has been totally ignored but anyways, maybe it helps you:


Ive been cruising this thread for ages, and from the begining I was wondering why this thread doesnt have a primer. So I decided to write one. Dear Moderators, if you judge this primer to be good enough to be on page 1, move it to there. Thanks!

Introduction:Lets start off with the question: "What is Deadguy Ale?"
First of all its an Controldeck. Some would say its and Aggro-Controldeck. Its build in the colors black and white.
So thats the basics. In facts its one of the sliperiest decks, because there is not, unlike in decks like Zoo or GW for example, a list to beat or just a perfect lists. You can play this deck very differently. But thats jus tthe introduction.

The basics:


Lands: What to start with when building a deck? Yeah, its the manabase.
What is a musthave at the manabase from Deadguy Ale?

1) Wasteland : Everyone knows, what this card is for, unbelieveable tempogain and can eliminate some utilitylands. Recommended to play 4 of them.

2) Scrubland : Yeah, the white-black dualland. The purposes are obvious. Play 4 of them.

3) Marsh Flats : The appropriate Fetchie. Dont play less than 4.

4) Verdant Catacombs (or any other appropriate Fetchie): Just to increase the fetchiecount, play 2 more fetchies.

5) Fetid Heath: This card is very strong, even though its not tutorable. It allows you to play T2 Hymn to Tourach, and T3 Mirran Crusader. It depens on your personal liking how much of them you play. I would advise to play 1-3

6)Basiclands: Ye of course some Basiclands, Swamps and Plains.

Creatures: I wont mention all the creatures who actually has seen play in and DGA list in any time, just the recent ones.

1) Dark Confidant: CA-Machine in person. Dont play less than 4.

2) Stoneforge Mystic: It might depend on the hype at the moment on Stoneforge Mystics, but Ive hardly seen a recent list not playing 4.

3) Mother of Runes: Some like her as a decent T1 drop. She isnt playable in all Deadguy Ale builds but especially in the Aether Vial build shes very useful. When playing her, play 3-4

4) Tidehollow Sculler: When running Aether Vial you should play him, 4 of him.

5) Mirran Crusader: When your deck has got a high white-count or runs enough Fetid Heaths, play this guy. Id recommend 2-3 of this one. When hes equipped he can kill enemies in a few rounds. Plus his protection is kinda nice.

6) Jotun Grunt: Some like him, some dont. One is for sure: He isnt weak. Preboard graveyardhate with a solid body. Nothing bad at all. When playing him play 2.

7) Gatekeeper of Malakir: When running a blackbased list or running enough Fetid Heaths (even with Fetid heaths your decks has to be deep black) take this guy. Hes a perfect CA creature. Coming into play and killing a creature- even with protection. And then he might just be an equipment bearer.

8) Serra Avenger: When running Aether Vial you can take this girl. Shes pretty decent: 2 Mana for a 3/3 flying with vigilance at T3 isnt bad at all.

9) Vampire Nighthawk: This guy is very good aswell. He is a 2/3 deathtouch lifelink for just 3 Mana. He can get you back lost lives or just chumblockes with any fattie.

10) Phyrexian Obliterator: Ok, when I said deep-black up there, I mean deepdeep-black here. But when your deck is like only black or stuff you can run this guy. If well protected hes a decent clock because not many dare to block him due obvious reasons.

11) Phyrexian Revoker: Some actually like to play him mainboard. Hes a nice answer to many cards in Legacy. Though sometimes he might just be a dead card. Your decision.

Spells

1) Hymn to Tourach: Number 1 Discard in Legacy. Always changing 1-2. Always play 4.

2) Thoughtseize: If youd like even more Lifeloss then thats your card. A great discard but 2 dmg.

3) Duress: A nice discard without any lifeloss. Can take out any noncreature nonland. Against some decks it might be bad but most of the time its very nice.

4) Inquisition of Kozilek: This card is taking most of Legacies cards in general, even though it might not take expensive finishers.

5) Swords to Plowshares: Legacies Removal number 1. Always play 4 of this one.

6) Vindicate: Thats the swiss´army knife. Hits every permanent for 3 Mana. Sometimes it helps you getting your opponent getting manascrewed, sometimes its just a removal, sometimes it destroys some random artifact/enchantment - short: great card. Play 4.

7) Smother: When you need some more creature removal, take this one.

8) Path to Exile : When you need even more creature removal and dont care about the tempobonus you give the enemy, take this one.


Artifacts and Enchantments and Planeswalkers

1) Batterskull: As everyone is playing SFM at the moment you got to play 1 of these aswell.

2) Umezawa´s Jitte: The swiss´army knife under the equips. Id always recommend playing 1.

3) Sensei´s Divining Top: Provides nice cardquality and has some nice evasion with Bob(Dark Confidant)

4) Bitterblossom: When running a creature-light deck and you need an ultimate tokenproducer, take this card. Its just amazing and wins nearly every liferace. Play 2-4

5) Sword of Fire and Ice: The most aggresive sword available, it provides nice CA when letting you draw a card and killing some weaker creature of the enemy.

6) Sword of Light and Shadow: When running alot of (Utility)-creatures this sword provides a good choice.

7) Sword of Body and Mind: This sword offers the best protection, even though its abilities are weaker than SoFaI and SoLaS.

8) Elspeth, Knight-Errant: This is another very strong finisher, once your Equipment strategy failed this card takes place in winning the game for you. Run 2 of her.


Accelerators: There are 3 kinds of accelerators, even though one is already outdated.

1) Dark Ritual: Thats the outdated acceleration, barely anyone is playing this at the moment, but still some fans of this card do so. When using it, play 4.

2) Chrome Mox: Thats the most common accelerator when playing Deadguy Ale. Even though it produces some CDA at the beginning, but alongside running Chrome Mox you can run fewer lands and even might be able to cast Hymn or SFM T1. When using it, play 3.

3 Aether Vial: Even though this card isnt an acceleration at the first point, but it develops into an accelerationmachine when reaching the late earlygame when you cast a SFM via vial and some spells via your normal mana. When using it, play 4.


Tactics: Some would call DGA a controldeck, some would say its an aggro-control and some think its an midrange-deck. Well if you ask me its a combination of everything. It totally depends on your build. And yes DGA is an midrange deck, even though its a very controllike midrangedeck.
In general your aim is it to race trough the earlygame and try to take as few damage as possible. You rape your opponents hand with discard while you produce cardadvantage via Dark confidant and SFM. Once you reached the midgame you should be able to answer everything your oponent plays with (preventive) Discard or Removal. And a Batterskull or some equipped creature should win the game for your.
Well, easier said than done. What are the problems for this deck?
First of all and mostly aggro.... aggro and more aggro. I mean you can build your deck so its well prepared against aggro but many lists arent. Its very hard to race to the midgame when you got a bunch of damn cc1/free drops (see: Zoo/Affinity) on board. If you cant handle them fast and properly you are...lets say...nearly defeated.
And to make sure things like that dont happen you have accelerators. Starting T1 with a Hymn(via Chrome Mox) or even with Hymn + Duress/Inqui (via Dark Ritual) helps alot. But you dont have such a nice hand all the time. Wasteland is doing a nice job when racing to midgame aswell.
So when everything is running well the board is kinda cleared, you have got a Batterskull down there and maybe some Faerie or Dark Confidant equipped with any Sword or with Jitte. And whatever the enemy is doing, you let him discard it by instant (Aether Vial + Tidehollow Sculler in Draw segment) or you destroy it once it landed on board. Then you start hitting and pumping your lifepoints, so you can ensure letting your Dark Confidant and Bitterblossom work. Once you reached this point of the game: lean back, relax and enjoy your enemy getting smashed.

Matchup-analysis

Zoo: Lets start off with something very brutal. Its a very strong fast Aggro(burn)deck that might be able to smash your strategie easily with his early cc1 drops and his burn. But postboard it isnt that hard to win. But still this stays one of the hardest matchups DGA players have to face.

GW-Aggro: This matchup might seem easy for the first view and sometimes it actually is but remember one thing: this deck runs 4 Qasali Pridemages and 4 GSZ - so in fact 8 artefact destroyers. When they got too many Qasalis you can pray to get a Elspeth and overhelm them on this way or just try to cope with them without Equipments - which is very hard - I know.

Landstill: When you are fast enough to land an SFM down there you might be able to win this game easily. When not its an fair game without anyone being too superior.

NO-decks: When you can stop em early enough from accelerating (Noble Hierach, Birds of Paradise) you actually might be able to rape their hand fast enough and have an easy game. If not - say hi to Progenitus.

Storm/Dredge: You cant (as most of the other decks) really beat em first game, but you have access to really great sideboardcards like Extirpate or Ethersworm Canonist.

Death and Taxes: The most fair matchup i can imagine. Mostly depens on luck or skill who wins.

Merfolk: When you got a decent start without them interrupting you it shouldnt be too hard to kill this itchy fish. When landing a soon Jitte or Batterskull they shouldnt be able to recover fast enough.

Now some lists:

1) Thats the list from Tacosnape, possible the most experienced DGA player in this forum.
4 Marsh Flats
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
4 Swamp
3 Fetid Heath
3 Wasteland

3 Chrome Mox
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

3 Mother of Runes
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Mirran Crusader

2) Thats the list I am running atm

Manabase
4 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
2 Fetid Heath
3 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Tower of the Magistrate

Creatures
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
3 Mirran Crusader

Artefacts
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Umezawa´s Jitte
1 Batterskull
3 Chrome Mox

Enchantment
3 Bitterblossom

Discard
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Duress

Removal
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate


Planeswalker
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Id be happy when you enjoyed reading this primer and maybe decided playing DeadGuy Ale now :)
Even though when you dont I hope you liked it.
If there are any mistakes or things youd like to add/mention just write an PM or post it.
Thanks, Godspeed and Farewell!

[Surak]

great primer, tnx!

I love gatekeeper btw, played it alot in my discard deck.
But I really have question with a BBB mana in combo with the white i wanna play (mirran crusader to be exact).
I might run vampire nighthawk in stead, but i like mirran more, double strike really is killer.. any suggestions?
Plannin on playing duals + Fetid Heath + marsh flats (only have it 3 times now) + verdant catacomb

any thoughts on not playing confidant, and only phyrexian arena?

[Rizso]

It wouldnt be named BW-confidant without the Confidants :P

Confidant is with stoneforge mystic the most important creature to have. Chance of winning with 1 in play is alot larger then any other creature in deck.

[Einherjer]

Guys, Ive been trying to make some strange DGA list. Its running Elspeth (WW) Mirran (WW) and Gatekeeper (BBB) and Hymn (BB) at one time.
It works really good, if the enemy is too slow to manascrew you, you have an easy game to be honest.




>>>Manabase
4 Scrubland
3 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Fetid Heath
3 Swamp
1 Plains

>>>White
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

>>>Black
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Duress
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Dark Confidant
3 Bitterblossom
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir

>>>Black and White
4 Vindicate

>>>Colorless
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Umezawa´s Jitte
3 Chrome Mox

[Tim the Enchanter]

I might run vampire nighthawk in stead, but i like mirran more, double strike really is killer.. any suggestions?
Plannin on playing duals + Fetid Heath + marsh flats (only have it 3 times now) + verdant catacomb

any thoughts on not playing confidant, and only phyrexian arena?

Nighthawk is terrible. I'm gonna stop myself right now before I go on a rant. He's bad, don't play him.

There's a reason Dark Confidant is $50 and decks splash black just for him, he's that good. The difference between two and three mana is huge in this deck, plus he carries a sword and you can get rid of him if you need to usually.

[Einherjer]

Nighthawk is terrible. I'm gonna stop myself right now before I go on a rant. He's bad, don't play him.

There's a reason Dark Confidant is $50 and decks splash black just for him, he's that good. The difference between two and three mana is huge in this deck, plus he carries a sword and you can get rid of him if you need to usually.



True words Tim, what you think of my list? BBB and WW playable?
Thanks :) Im like very keen on 4 opinions: Letos, Tacos, Bookwinkles and yours - but everyone else may feel free to comment aswell ofc.

[bokwinkle]

I'm going to agree with tim regarding nighthawk - nighthawk is generally not worth playing. For a long time I thought I was winning games with him, then I realized I was winning games because I needed a body to block/carry swords with evasion - and there are simply better creatures with those stat's IMHO.

--------------

Phillip, i have a few talking points.

First you play a lot of cards I wouldn't...lol. That's ok, though, I'm not going to get into that since I've been beating a dead horse for a while, and there are plently of winning lists that are running the cards that you (I think?), but for this reason you should definately take my advice with a grain of salt.

Second, generally I don't think you can hit your mana easilly enough - I'd just be cautious about your mana base if wasteland is prevelant in your meta. Personally, I'd never be able to run you list in my meta without dropping a couple games a night to wasteland.

Next, I'd be wary that 7 of your lands don't produce black on Turn 1 - goldfishing and playtesing will shake out the truth about if there are issues (or not), but the problem is that fixing it is not easy - without looking at the entire list and trying to make a descion about whether you want want to go heavy black or heavy white.

Also, I'd watch your quantity of turn 1 plays. There are at least a half a dozen decks in the current meta who's win percentage goes up drastically against a non-blue deck that goes turn 1, land, go. You have 7 turn 1 plays (Counting mox) - that means that you "generally" have a pretty good chance of hitting one of them on the play (90%+/-), but I think upping your count of 1 drops is probably a good idea, especially with the pressense of all of the combo in the meta.

Lastly, I generally don't like chrome Mox (personally preferance), but I understand the concept of dropping a 2-drop (on turn 1) that grants card advantage to combat the card disadvantage of the mox. What I have a problem with is when your "plan" is foiled by a bolt or a swords because your card advantage was bob or Stoneforge. For this reason, I think mox lists REALLY need to run Misstep - plus it does a lot to shore up the zoo matchup...and I feel like blue zoo is really picking up steam, so misstep seems like a no-brainer to me...plus it increases your 1 drops - where to cut for this? I'd start with vindicates and gatekeepers....but I understand you're reservations regarding cutting these particular cards...but that's where I'd start.

[Einherjer]

I wont cut vindicates, but why not gatekeepers, that would smooth out my manastuff wouldnt it? So... -3 Gatekeeper? + 3 MM? + 2 MM? what would you do? just tell me what you would do and ill try it out for sure :) Not said that ill keep it but ill try it out.

[bokwinkle]

yeah, I wouldn't even hesitate to cut gatekeepers for missteps in the current meta and dealing with mana issues - it makes T1 Hymn/misstep plays pretty back breaking too. yeah, I'd start there - normally I'd be a bit cautious about cutting dudes because you might run into issues finding dudes...but since you run bitterblossom I don't consider it that big a deal.

[Einherjer]

Good thank you, hmm are 3 Mental Missteps OK? Or should I add a 4th one? I could even add a 61st card for it. what you think?

[thefringthing]

3 is probably plenty in a deck without Brainstorm to put them away when you don't want them.

[Rizso]

Removed Tutors from the board atm. Added extra GY hate as well as a Mortarpod.

Why mortarpod? It helps against the mavericks loads of 1 toughtness creatures. Every Dread return Enabler is a 1 toughness creatures as well the token removes bridges. Makes Stoneforge mystics stronger in our matchups where we are the underdog. As well its great against NO Rug. Geting thoes nobles, Cliques, lavamancers and Dryad Armor. And newer UW versions with Spellstuttersprites. Mortarpod seem really strong 1 of to have in the 75 in the current meta. Kills Opponents Dark Confidants as well.

[bokwinkle]

I rarely find myself wanting to shuffle away missteps, but finding room for 4 will probably be pretty difficult - and without blue mana it is another life loss card, so using 4 is probably not a good idea anyway since you're already running bob and bitterblossom.

---------

Rizso - I'm not sure if it's you I keep seeing talking about Mortarpod or whether I've just seen it brought up by other people too - but I'm quite sure I've seen mention of this card in at least one other thread. Personally, I'm not sold on it, since it follows the same line of hate that deals with our win cons, but generally I'm not opposed to it either. I'd be curious to hear about actually testing results on the card if you get a chance to play with it.

[Einherjer]

I tested with 2 Mental MIsstep and I LOVE them, I might just add a 61st card for 3th of them :)

[Rizso]

As i dont play with a plain in the deck im gonna replace my marsh flats with polluted deltas just to put my oppoents at bay in game 1 might get them to think i play a combo or team america deck :P

In you version philipp only real choices for the 3rd misstep would be replacing an elsepth or a bitterblossom imo.

[Einherjer]

Duh sure good idea :)

[Rizso]

Just got home from weekly legacy tournament. 16 people got 2nd place.

First matchup GWu-Maverick
Game 1
I draw quite discard heavy hand but i dont really draw any removal or creatures. I Thoughtseizes his hand t1 i see, 2 NO, 3 lands 1 noble and a Sofaf. I pick the noble. He runs me over without much resistance.

Game 2
Im on play now. I get a t1 Dark confidant, he t1 forest + GSZ for arbor. I play wasteland and kills his Arbor and he gets mana screwed. After geting a Jitte active turn 3, He scopes

Game 3
I get a turn 1 Stoneforge for Sword of Body and Mind. He tries to get more stuff on to the board. t2 I pass my turn he swords it and I respond with puting a Batterskull on the board. T3 jitte for him. Im not afraid of it, i have my own jitte and got a perish as well as a Gatekeeper. I resolve a Dark Confidant the turn after. A gatekeeper and a perish that killed 4 creatures later the game was sealed in my favor.

Board: +2 perish, 1 mortarpod, 1 manriki-Gusari +1 Ghost Qaurters -1 Chrome Mox, 1 Hymn, 1 Vindicate 1 Thoughtseize. Ghost Qaurters i Bring in against decks with really greedy mana, Bant uses only 1 basic.

Matchup 2 Against very burn heavy zoo. Goblin Guide, Riftbolt etc.
I get a t1 stoneforge for batterskull, he burns down the token with fireblast in responce to a hymn on him. Taking 2 of his fetchlands in hand, but he had much lands. I go t4 Phyrexian Arena and start to draw cards. But he play really aggressive with his burn, I dont really got anything as I Chrome moxed my Phyrexian Obliterator, but learned my lesson :D

Game 2
I see a wonderful hand with 2x Phyrexian Crusdader, Sword of war and Peace, chrome mox, 2 lands Dark Confidant. T2 chrome mox +Phyrexian Crusadar, he plays Goblin Guide and attack with his guide + nacatle I block the Natcatl, puting the Nacatl down to a solid 1/1. Turn 3, i crash with Crusader for 2 poision and play my 2nd Crusdar. t4 I play my 3rd land play a kicked Gatekeeper and he sacrifices his Goblin guide. Turn after i play me sword Turn after i need a STP and I draw the Sword to Plowshare. Swords the nacatl and swing with crusader with a sword Equiped for 6 more poisions. Also taking my life from 6 to 9. Before this I wastelands a plateau to force him to fetch up a new plateau for his nacatl. He is playinmg searing blaze and steppelynx after all. The crusaders wins the match.

game 3.

He starts with a t1 Nacatl and i start with a t1 Fetid Heath, mox imprinting Dark Confidant playing t1 Stoneforge Mystic for a Batterskull. He searing blazes my stoneforge. and takes me down to 14 I play a t2 kicked Gatekeeper. He no longer got any creatures but he starts to burn my face. An other chain lightning takes me to 10. T3 I play my obliterator then t4 play and equip a Jitte and thats it :D

Board: +1 Sword of War and peace, +2 Phyrexian Crusaders, + 1 Mortarpod 1 Inquisition of Kozilek - 3 Thoughtseizes, -1 Hymn, 1 Vindicate

matchup vs Merfolk
I start with mulling a 0 land hand into a 0land 1 chrome Mox 6 card hand with Chrome mox, Dark Confidant, thoughtseize, Hymn, gatekeeper. This hand is pretty much a 5 hander allready. Thought with a land or 2 this hand is quite solid. I Chrom Mox with keeper and play a thoughtseize and see: loa, fow, Coralcommander islan, mutavault, wasteland, Silverguil i take the Silverguil adept. he plays a Curse Catcher I play a Dark Confidant after I topdeck a swamp. Then Bob trigger gives me a jitte and i draw wasteland. i play wasland and cast hymn he sacrifices his Curse Catcher wich I pay for then he dazes it. I dont draw any more lands so cant play either Vindicate, swords to plowshare or kicked gatekeeper.

Match 2
I start with swamp go he plays Vial i Missteps it. Then I hymn taking a Curse Catche and a Silverguil and he dont have a creature for a couple of turns. I dont really draw anything and he connects 1 then 2, 3 and then 4th lord and its over.

Board - 1 Misstep + 1 Mortarpod. What I learned from it, mull and shuffle better! :D
Played yet and other Game with 25 min left on the timer. I won this quite easy, t1 bob t2 hymn, jitte and then t4 I resolve a Obliterator with Daze mana up. Wich ended that game.

Last matchup for the day against Reanimator. I start on play.
I get a t1 hymn he forces it i then play a t2 stoneforge with batterskull. He reanimates a stupid Stormtide Leviathan that i easly swords to plowshares on my turn after i have puted in a batterkull into play. I draw yet an other sword and i start to do beat down with batterskull + stoneforge and play yet an other stoneforge and fetches Jitte. And its over 2 turns later.

I keep yet an other questional hand for game 2. wasteland, Ghost Quarters, STP, bob, gatekeeper, Relic of prog and a Obliterator. he gets a t2 Gitaxis... Next game pretty much. 14 min to time gets announced and I scoop.

Game 3 im on play yet again. I got a likable hand Inquision, Thoughtseize, Surgical Extraction, Scrubland, Pulluted Delta, wasteland and a sword to plowshares. I startout with a thoughtseize and sees mistyrain forest, Delta, Catacombs, Hapless Researcher, Animate Dead, Reanimate and Ink large guy. I take the Reanimate. He fetchs ubsea and a Hapless Researcher. I Inquision his Animate dead and his new card was Empyrial Archangel. He Hapless Research away his Empyrial and then Exhume it i Respond with Extracting his Empyrial he Misdirects it to my Thoughtseizes Wich i ofc fail to find:P Then i Resolv a Phyrexian Obliterator he smashes me for 5 im at 13 after thoes hits but i fell confident as i have a jitte in my turn. But i topdeck a gatekeeper. kicks the gatekeeper and smashes for 5 with obliterator down to 13. Then i play jitte and equip time get called but i got him down to 6 with my having 2 more turn left and attacking with obliterator with jitte with 2 counters and a Gatekeeper.

Board - 1 Sword of Body and Mind, 1 Vindicate, 1 Hymn to Tourach, 1 Gatekeeper, 2 Phyrexian Arena + 1 Inquision, 1 Thoughtseize, 1 Surgical Extraction, 1 Ghost Quarters 2 Relic of Progenitus.

3-1, Winning against matchups i find hard and / or Annoying but got so much board action against them. Lost to a favored matchup, probly cos of badly mulling. Obliterator was awesome everytime i got 1 into play and it did happend alot today. They are busy geting Confidants and Stoneforges of the board and combined with smart discarding he came down and conquered. Defently continue trying him out, might even want to have a 3 incase i need to have one of them imprited onto a Chrome Mox. Really feels like he wins matchs alone. Only card i Didnt board today was The Ethersworn Canonists.

Decklist:

4 Stoneforge mystic
4 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
2 Phyrexian Obliterator

3 Mental Misstep
2 Phyrexian Arena
4 Swords to plowshares
4 Vindicate
3 Thoughtseize
1 inquisition of kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Body and Mind

3 Chrome Mox
6 Swamp
4 Scrubland
1 Marsh Flats
3 Polluted Delta
1 Fetid Heath
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Phyrexian Crusader
2 Perish
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Relic of progenitus
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 mortarpod
1 Thoughtseize
1 inquisition of kozilek
1 ghost quarter

[Einherjer]

lets start with what I would do different, maybe you aggre:
-2 Arena +1 Obliterator + 1 thoughtseite/duress....
What you think of this? It might get your deck stronger, thats what I think....

But a very nice report (written and especially played)! Gratz to your finish.
Do you think a black version (Gatekeeper, Obliterator) is superior to a white one? (mirran Crusader, Elspeth)?
Tell me what you think, on the weekend Ill prox your list without Arena(-.-) and playtest it, and then ill tell you what i like more, black or white :)
Lemme know what you think.

Greetings

[Rizso]

I got the extra 2 Discard spells in my board. Imo 8 is enough for main deck. I really do like the arena. It doesnt get killed by creature removal or get countered by either missteps or Spell Snare. I have tested the white version I like it to but right now I prefair the blackversion as I like what Obliterator brings to the table. There isnt any good blocks against him unless they play a 0/6+ walls of some kind.

Only thing Im thinking of changing is the Ethersworn Canonists. They arent enought to win games against any potent Storm player. Probly want to increase the number of Phyrexian Crusaders to 3, as they pretty much wins zoo matches or makes it more in favor. With both Obliterators and Crusaders they cant really burn through them.

As well I think im gonna increase the numbers of Surgical Extraction as well, dont really like relics that much atm.

[Abantau]

Hi guys, Long time lurker first time poster here at the source.

Playtested with a mirror deadguy yesturday which uses aven mindcensor instead of nighthawk or mirran crusader. With our meta filled with blade control and hive mind players this birdman is a house. What do you think guys?

[Einherjer]

Ye I think he is underestimated, but he actually isnt worth a mainboard place when you ask me. If the meta allows it, play it side, but not really main, thats what I think.
Greetings nd Godspeed

[Tacosnape]

It doesn't really fix the problem Deadguy has, IMO, which is lack of a serious undercosted clock. There's a million decent disruptive guys you can run: Mindcensor, Canonist, Tidehollow, etc. But most of my Deadguy losses I take lately come because I don't have the closing speed to capitalize on my disruption.

[Einherjer]

Hopefully the new Planeswalker, Liliana will be a legacycard, and hopefully Itll be playable in DGA, then Im gonna play Walkerguy Ale with Liliana and Elspeth :)

[funyun45]

Good thank you, hmm are 3 Mental Missteps OK? Or should I add a 4th one? I could even add a 61st card for it. what you think?

I know I'm sounding like a broken record, but I strongly recommend the full compliment of Missteps. I run 6 fetches, 2 Godless Shrines, 4 Confidants, 3 Bitterblossoms, and 4 Missteps. That's a lot of life loss, yet I still think Misstep is well worth it. I haven't really found it to be a problem since it protects SFM, helping to reliably put down a turn 3 Batterskull, which then mitigates the life loss. I think you'll find against aggressive decks and vial decks that the tempo advantage from Misstep more than makes up for it being yet another source of suicide. In a lot of ways, it's straight up gaining you life in those matches. That said, don't go to 61 :tongue:

As for the mid/late-game draw concern, again I'm going to be a broken record. I love mid-game draws of Misstep. Having a clutch StP counter in hand can mean the difference between slowing your progress or ushering in the late game. I also run Mother of Runes, and in conjunction the two cards really, really hurt their removal game. And that's definitely a good thing, considering this deck runs some of the most powerful creatures in the format-- one's you desperately want to keep operational.

By the late game, this deck usually doesn't care what it draws. The "late game" for this deck typically means the board is not only stabilized, but is now yours, and the attrition war is so strongly in your favor there's really no coming back for them. If that's not the case, you're probably not actually in this deck's late game.

[Einherjer]

Hi, you arent doing anything wrong, and I respect your opinion and know youre mostly right and yeah.. I got another problem why I cant play 4 Mental Missteps... I CANT FIND SPACE ^^ Whatever Ill have to find it, may I see your list?

[Tacosnape]

If you can't find space, split your Missteps between board and main.

The thing about Misstep is that, while being the most amazingly efficient card in the history of the universe, it goes against the spirit of the deck, which is to have cards which are very versatile and decent in almost any situation. Thoughtseize and Hymn always strongly affect the opponents' hands. Vindicate always has targets to hit. Swords usually does. Confidant always provides advantage. Stoneforge always hunts up a solution or a clock. Etc. Misstep, however, is narrow. Topdecking one will do nothing to save you from a losing board, and having one in hand will do nothing to save you from a 2 or 3 CMC spell.

That said, when Misstep is good, it's mindblowingly amazing. This means that it's probably a dead cert that there should be four in your 75. And I don't think it makes a huge difference how you split them, as long as you know when and what for to take them in or out.

[Einherjer]

Thats what im doing 2-2 atm. But im playing a whiteheavy DGA list, ill be working on a..traditional Deadguy :) with white for Vindicate/Sword and SFM .. lets see whats stronger^^ once ive done it, ill post both and what i like / dislike and the estimated strenght. gimme 1 week :)

[Anthem]

Hey everyone. I just got back from Gen Con having piloted a Deadguy list into Top 64. These are some of the things that I learned about the deck:

I much prefer the creature-heavy version of Deadguy. I believe that slamming threats turn after turn is a necessity to help the deck's closing speed. I played something like Tim's list in the prelims and lost hard. Maybe it's my luck, but Chrome Mox was useless for me in the prelims, so I also cut it for the Champs. Chucking business to it was often an annoying choice.

Misstep wasn't in my sideboard (I opted for Angel's Grace to stop Hivemind) but I do wish that I had some in hindsight. Cards that I wished I had a Misstep for during the tourney were: Other Missteps targeting Vial, Grim Lavamancer, Stifle, Phyrexian Dreadnaught, Noble Hierarch, and spot removal.

I'm sold on the idea that 4 Vindicate and at least one Diabolic Edict are a necessity. Also, I take back what I said about Engineered Plague being useless; play it and say "Fairies" in some matchups. There are times where "Druid" or "Bird" would have also been cute. I should also point out that the winner of the whole thing was Merfolk, and that Goblins was prevalent (which an article on the event highlights). The guy I beat Round 2 had a variant of The Gate and played it naming "Human". 8 cards in my deck gone (MoR, Confidant) and Mirran Crusader became a 1/1.

This was my list:

Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Mother of Runes
3 Serra Avenger
3 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Mirran Crusader

Equips
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

Sorceries
4 Duress
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Vindicate

Instants
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Diabolic Edict

Non-equip artifacts
4 Aether Vial

Lands
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
2 Arid Mesa
3 Plains
2 Swamp

Sideboard
3 Perish
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Extirpate
3 Angel's Grace
1 Sword of War and Peace
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Swords to Plowshares

None of the creatures felt useless, except when I had an excess of MoR, making me wish I had her at 3 with Serra Avenger at 4. I honestly forgot how good they both are. A Serra Avenger and a MoR kept me alive against a Sphinx of the Steel Wind long enough to seal the deal against B/U Reanimator. Sword of Body and Mind did a great job; I only wished I had a different sword a few times, and that was SoFI.

Vialing in Tidehollow Sculler during their draw step is your own special Vendilion Clique and is amazing against NO Bant/RUG. The 1 IoK should probably be a single Thoughtseize, but I don't like running 4 Thoughtseize at all. Mirran Crusader rocked houses; a non-green/black creature is rarely big enough to take it, making it great in the red zone.

Any thoughts?

[Einherjer]

What i wanna know. What place did you get?
Because if you ask me, a list with vial and without chrome and with so many creatures and without HYMN cant be... strong? Or atleast not as strong as the lists running no vial but chrome + hymn.
Have you ever had T1 Hymn. It won me so often games ( especially against MUD :P ) that it is uncuttable if you ask me... And your list reminds me more of DnT even though there isnt a Mangara, but even though DnT is more aggro than we are. So.. I dont know... Maybe you write a report and maybe im wrong....

[Leto]

As it looks from a quick google-research GenCon is a rather big event with 30.000 Visitors last Weekend and Magic-Events the whole 3 Days. So I would say, as popular as Legacy is, getting Top 64 is something good ;)

To your list

-Playing Aether Vial, while everyone is tryin' out MMS in their decks seems bold ;)
How was it, and how dependent on Vial was your Deck during the Tournament. If it sticks, I'm sure its great, saving Mom and bringing in Avenger for some good blocks or Sculler as Cliques, but the Trick is to cheat it through ;)

-Special thoughts on Duress over TS?

-1 Edict, 1 Extirpate seems pretty random

-How did your swords play out, as you play the underdogs ;)

-Creature-Package are the usual Suspects for VialGuy, nothing really new on this front.

-To Phillips Comment. Vialin' in a Sculler is on par with a Hymn for me
+ No Spell Snare (I really hate this Spell) or Force
+ Targeted "Discard"
+ "Instant"
+ No Manacosts (In a hungry Deck with Equipkosts really important)
+ also a 2 for 1, you get 1 card from your Opponent (you choose!) and 1 Body (Immun to ALL black removal!)
I wont list up Hymns Pros, as everyone knows them full well, but I don't like the lucky-hymn-T1-wins-me-game-Argument, as it is, what it says, lucky. That is nothing I want to rely on, as Luck is a bitch ;)

[funyun45]

If you can't find space, split your Missteps between board and main.

The thing about Misstep is that, while being the most amazingly efficient card in the history of the universe, it goes against the spirit of the deck, which is to have cards which are very versatile and decent in almost any situation. Thoughtseize and Hymn always strongly affect the opponents' hands. Vindicate always has targets to hit. Swords usually does. Confidant always provides advantage. Stoneforge always hunts up a solution or a clock. Etc. Misstep, however, is narrow. Topdecking one will do nothing to save you from a losing board, and having one in hand will do nothing to save you from a 2 or 3 CMC spell.

I have to disagree with a qualifier here. Yes, in many ways MM is much less versatile than a lot of the cards in this deck. However, I think 1) It may still be more versatile than you're giving it credit for and 2) Despite it's lack of versatility, however large or small that quantity may be, the way it compliments the other cards in the deck makes up for it. The reason I think that's the case is because this deck has quite the capability to dictate the pace of the early game, even against aggressive decks. IoK + Mom + MM is an amazing early game tempo package; as a result, I really often don't come across the sort of topdeck situations you're describing, where it does nothing against a losing board. That's because it's so powerful at helping to stop such a thing from occurring in the first place.

As for my first point, on it's versatility: having one MM mid-game can mean countering removal aimed right at Bob or SFM, which by itself can turn a game around. That is especially true in exactly the "losing board" circumstances, where digging deeper for answers, or being able to turn the tide with a flashed-in Batterskull can make all the difference. With most cards in most decks, there are times you love turning one over and times you don't, and which one it is is always in relation to a card you would have preferred to get instead. I think the late-game drawbacks for topdecking an MM are much less pronounced than for some other cards in this deck, like, for example, Hymn. But who would argue Hymn isn't an auto-include in this deck? And they'd be right. It's one of the best CA spells in Legacy. Similarly, MM is one of the best tempo spells in Legacy. So, arguments about its topdeck viability, in my opinion, need to be taken in context with similar arguments that could be made about other cards that are, rightly, considered DA staples.

[funyun45]

Hi, you arent doing anything wrong, and I respect your opinion and know youre mostly right and yeah.. I got another problem why I cant play 4 Mental Missteps... I CANT FIND SPACE ^^ Whatever Ill have to find it, may I see your list?

May or may not be right. Just drawing conclusions from my own experiences.

My list:

// Lands (22)
Swamp (4)
Plains (1)
Marsh Flats (4)
Arid Mesa (2)
Scrubland (1)
Godless Shrine (2)
Caves of Koilos (4)
Wasteland (4)

// 0 cc (4)
Mental Misstep (4)

// 1 cc (12)
Mother of Runes (4)
Inquisition of Kozilek (4)
Swords To Plowshares (4)

// 2 cc (20)
Dark Confidant (4)
Phyrexian Revoker (4)
Stoneforge Mystic (4)
Bitterblossom (3)
Hymn To Tourach (4)
Umezawa's Jitte (1)

// 3 cc (1)
Sword of Fire & Ice (1)

// 5 cc (1)
Batterskull (1)

// Sideboard (15)
Seal of Cleansing (4)
Leyline of the Void (4)
Pithing Needle (1)
Ratchet Bomb (2)
Manriki-Gusari (1)
Deathmark (3)

[Einherjer]

Sorry didnt read it well enough then - didnt see he was actually going into the top 64!
Gratz on your finish then, nvm what i said about the strength level of this deck...
But i really like the version from funny up there... looks... brutal honestly :) Only think id change is squeezing in a chrome mox for some acceleration.
Even though the manabase is....budget?

But ok, what about Vindicate? is this supposed to be a meta-call? Or just budget aswell? A few explanations would be nice in any way.

Anyways greetings nd godspeed

[Surak]

made my build yesterday, i'll post a list when i come to think of it.
I used to play black discard, and i must say i LOVE this one!
Jitte + mirran crusader = lethal as f*** (or with any random sword that is, i play Body and mind and war & peace)
Still pondering about vindicate.. It's boarded mainly against planewalkers / non basic lands? (or am i mistaken?)
what about Mangara of Corondor? seems very suitable against planewalkers / non basic lands

Some second thought bout the deck: I'd love to play this one in the new announced format 'modern'
But 2 of the key card (in my eyes) aren't playable: Hymn & Gerrard's verdict.
Any ideas on replacing this one's with others? you have sculler, TS, duress, inquisition, .. but that's all one card..?

Peace!

[Rizso]

made my build yesterday, i'll post a list when i come to think of it.
I used to play black discard, and i must say i LOVE this one!
Jitte + mirran crusader = lethal as f*** (or with any random sword that is, i play Body and mind and war & peace)
Still pondering about vindicate.. It's boarded mainly against planewalkers / non basic lands? (or am i mistaken?)
what about Mangara of Corondor? seems very suitable against planewalkers / non basic lands

Some second thought bout the deck: I'd love to play this one in the new announced format 'modern'
But 2 of the key card (in my eyes) aren't playable: Hymn & Gerrard's verdict.
Any ideas on replacing this one's with others? you have sculler, TS, duress, inquisition, .. but that's all one card..?

Peace!

Chrom mox and jitte are quite important cards as well for the deck that is banned in Modern as well as Vindicate and wasteland not being legal. But as moderna contains lorwyn block i can see decks geting the most greeded mana bases ever made so maybe ghost quarters can sub for wasteland.

Just waiting for my 3rd foiled phyrexian crusader and my 3 Surgical Extraction.

Then I want my board to look like this :

1 Thoughtseize
1 Inquision of Kozilek
3 Phyrexian Crusader
2 Perish
3 Surigical Extraction
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Sword of war and peace
1 Mortarpod
1 Ghost Quarters

My overall board plan is
Board plan vs zoo

-2 thoughtseize
-2 Phyrexian arena
-1 Hymn to tourach

+ 1 Inquision of Kozilek
+ 3 Phyrexian Crusader
+ 1 Sword of War and Peace

And if its the slower zoo depending on what they have gsz stoneforge perish or Manriki-Gusari also comes in. GSZ i dont bring in the sword as they have less burn.

VS dredge

+ 3 Extirpate
+ 1 Mortarpod
+ 1 Relic of Progenitus
+ 1 Kozilek
+ 1 ghost Quarters if manadreadge


-4 Hymn
-2 to 3 Thoughtseize depending on manadredge or manalessdredge
-1 Sword of Body and Mind

Vs Goblin

-1 Thoughtseize
-1 Chrome Mox on play, -1 Vindicate on draw.
-3 Mental Misstep
-1 Vindicate

+1 Inquision of Kozilek
+3 Phyrexian Crusader
+1 Sword of war and peace
+1 Mortar pod

Really I dont care at all for vials I dont run counters. So only reason to run Missteps here is to get their Lackey.

NO-rug

+2 Perish
+1 Mortarpod, Kills grim lavamancer, cliques, Hierarchs and dryad Arbor
+1 Ghost Quarters

Batterskull, I feel this is a deck I dont really want Batterskull in this matchup. Really feels like they only win with either Jace, Cliques or a Progenitus against us. Really just want a creature equiped with Sword of body and mind thats it.
Ghost Quarters goes in as they have 1-3 basics only and Wastelands will make them fetch for basics making the ghost quarters into stripmines.
Even Surgical Extraction might be good in this matchup as they run very low threat count. 4 tarmogoyfs, 3-4 Cliques and 0-4 Jaces.

What goes out really depends on what i see their deck contain but combinaction of batterskull, vindicates, gatekeepers and Arena leaves the deck


Against Standstill/visions with mishra, stoneforge, clique and/or jace only as killing condition like bug still or uw stoneblade

- sword to plowshare
- gatekeepers
- Obliterator
- 1 mox
+ Surgical Extration
+ Thoughtseize
+ Ghost Qaurters
+ Inquision of kozilek
+ Sword of war and peace against maybe against uw-stoneblade.

Gameplan is simple Discard or Wasteland a killing condiction then Extract it away and look what was boarded in and out and if any other killing condiction.
Chances of them boarding out force is quite big so might want to keep the mox in the main for a t1 Bob hymn etc.

[Einherjer]

Sorry but im too pissed off from Modern. Please go to the Budget-Forum to talk about Modern.

I made another interesting list today, works very well.

4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Fetid Heath
3 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Chrome Mox

4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
2 Mirran Crusader

3 Bitterblossom
1 Jitte
1 SoBaM
1 Batterskull

4 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Duress
1 Inquisition
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach


I really like this way. The manabase isnt that stable any more but it allows me just to play good white and black spells. Ive had some great games vs NO RUG today. Testing like 6-4. That showed me - this built actually got potential.
What you think buds?

[funyun45]

But i really like the version from funny up there... looks... brutal honestly :) Only think id change is squeezing in a chrome mox for some acceleration.
Even though the manabase is....budget?

But ok, what about Vindicate? is this supposed to be a meta-call? Or just budget aswell? A few explanations would be nice in any way.

Anyways greetings nd godspeed

I'm not convinced by the arguments for acceleration from Mox. That is, I'm not convinced the tempo advantage outweighs the down card advantage as far as this deck's overall play style. But my point of view on that is based entirely off of theorycraft, and not at all off of experience. I'd have to see the Mox build in action more, I guess.

The land base is indeed budget (only 1 Scrubland), however 1) that's going to change soon and 2) it actually works fine as is. Occasionally (very occasionally) I have trouble casting a turn 2 Hymn, but I usually find that if that's my best turn 2 play I'm probably in trouble in any case, what with cards like Confidant and SFM as rival 2-drops. I think the main jump occurs from going from 0 to 1 Scrubland, and after that you get diminishing returns.

As for Vindicate...well, contemporary wisdom says Vindicate is amazing. And it is. But I think it's nowhere near $30 amazing. It should be a $10 card max. It's a big, clunky 3cc sorcery. For some reason I just don't like playing the card; it seems to have very bad tempo synergy with the deck. That said, it's hard to argue that it's one of the best resources to have available in your hand, sitting there waiting for the right target. If the card ever goes down in price, which will never happen, I'll get a playset. As it is, I just don't think it's worth the financial cost. Not with, in my opinion, more synergistic answer-alls like Revoker out there.

[Anthem]

I got 45th place going 5-4.

Funyun45 has it right; I think that the acceleration that Mox offers is not consistently good enough to offset the card disadvantage. I'd imagine that Tim the Enchanter's list relied heavily on token-producers for at least partially that reason. Combo decks don't give a shit because they're trying to kill you as soon as possible, but for Deadguy, having pitched that card often comes to bite you. Other decks that use Moxen, specifically Diamond, only do so because they also have a Loam engine. That is to say, they don't want to use a Mox without some way of getting back their investment. Additionally, I value a Turn 1 Vial or MoR FAR more than a Turn 1 Hymn against 9/10 of decks. Not joking. I believe that resolving a MoR or Vial against Zoo, Goblins, Merfolk, Maverick, Stoneblade, etc is as big of a death knell as a Hymn.

My not playing Hymn was more of a meta and build choice. For starters, I wanted more 1-drops; to have only 5-6 is asking to get them Missteped. If the only 1CMC card in your deck is StP, for instance, you're rarely going to get it where you want it against a Misstep player. I also value something more precise against combo. I'd rather have a 100% chance of snagging Natural Order than a 2/5 chance. Plus I'm nosy and like to see hands. Hymn is a good card, but it didn't fit my purposes at the time.

Four Vindicate has been a 'house' for me, particularly Game 1 when I face a smug player piloting Stax or Enchantress, or when I know my opponent is struggling for lands. It's a swiss army knife. I can often make three mana, and there were plenty of times where using it prevented me from losing the game. You cannot convince me that "Destroy target permanent" is a dead card in any practical situation. Even when using Chrome Mox, Vindicate loves to be pitched to it. Congrats, you just made a Scrubland.

To anyone critical of Vial in this meta: Mental Misstep is not enough to deter me from using it; with that logic, don't use any two drops because, oh God, Spell Snare exists. Anyone who has popped in a Batterskull at the end of their opponent's turn knows how good a Vial tempo play feels. Imagine that with a Dark Confidant, etc.

[Rizso]

I see it the other way reducing the amount of 1dropps and they are gonna board it out or they will have it stuck in their hand or brainstorm it away. Land mox into a hymn on the play or misstep backup on draw is devestating against blue decks. Against zoo its fine to go for a t1 stoneforge on play. If they are gonna use their first turn to get rid of your stoneforge you just bought yourself loads of time and then on t2 you can gatekeeper their creature if they remove your stoneforge.

There is cons and pros for both Vials and Chrome moxes. Vials requires enought creatures to run it. Creatures needs to be useful even when vials doesnt hit play. Used to play vial version as well before batterskull and Phyrexian Obliterator was printed. After Batterskull I went rather to the chrome mox version, an unanswered Stoneforge just seals the game faster then most other creatures atm. So prefair to have cards in the deck to be able to protect it before and after it hits play, Discard+ extraction and Misstep. Cant really play 20 creatures and still have all the protection in the 75. I have done many t1 2cc plays that has been really strong, t1 bob, stoneforge or hymn are all very strong. Also Vial dont work with Gatekeeper. There is alot of 2 for 1 in the chrome version to make up for it to have that 2 for 1 yourself. Also boarding out the moxes in some cases dont make the deck any worse. I dont know if i can say the same about the vial version as it relies way more on vials then chrome version does on the chrome.

On vindicate, for me it has never been a dead card at the very worst it it gets imprinted onto chrome mox for tempoplay, while in the vial version I ran max 2. Its great to have a direct removal for a resolved Jace or a random card your dont expect or got sideboard for, Sylvan Library, Confindment, Moat, humility, bloodmoon, back to basic not that back to basic is that awesome against us with more basics then most.

IMO the vial version is weaker then the mox version, thought they dont really do the same. Mox version grinds out our opponents resources while vial tries to beat down with disruption.

For me it wasnt misstep that made me want to turn away from from vial, its rather that game got slowed down and made stoneforge/ batterskull insane and ofc counterbalanced has pretty much died of.

[a-slice-of-cake]

Any thoughts on running maindeck Chains of Mephistophiles in a heavy combo/blue meta? I've been trying it out, and because my BW list runs an enlightened tutor package (it can even just be a bad stoneforge 5 and 6, if all else fails), the savage beating it gives by blanking Brainstorm, Sylvan Library, and even punishing cantrips is huge. Plus, since Bob doesn't "draw" the card, Chains doesn't affect him. It basically hampers your opponent's ability to get his outs once you ts/hymn and shred his hand, while we gobble up the CA.

Also, I see a lot of people running Mirran Crusader. Don't get me wrong, dude's cool as hell, and I have 2 in my sb because he gives Goyf such a beating. But I've had far better success using one of my personal favorite cards: Stillmoon Cavalier. No, you don't get to live the dream of double jitte triggers or sword triggers, but you also get to avoid the blowout of having an equipped crusader get plow'd or Path'd (which, let's face, happens a hell of a lot) Stillmoon is also easier to cast, can block black or white fliers all day long, flies over tarmogoyf to get in there, and can self-pump with first strike. Oh yeah, he also both gets through/blocks stoneforge and Batterskull tokens. Sure, he dies to red removal, but so does everything in this deck. Finally, he shows Chrome Mox some love.

[funyun45]

Against zoo its fine to go for a t1 stoneforge on play. If they are gonna use their first turn to get rid of your stoneforge you just bought yourself loads of time

This same tempo play against Zoo is possible by running Mother of Runes in Moxless. The difference is, come turn 2, you now have an SFM and they're down 1 removal, so you may just be able to get its ability online. Also, you're not down 1 card, which I think can be really dangerous against Zoo. As I said before, MM + IoK + Mom package has the ability to dictate the early game. Mox can too. So the midgame, turn 3+, is where the rubber meets the road in terms of either Zoo or Deadguy pulling out ahead. However, being down 1 card in the midgame versus a deck like Zoo is a huge setback, and MM + IoK + Mom does not have that disadvantage.

Wanting to cut down on 1cc spells due to Misstep is not something most decks really need to worry about doing. 15 land Dredge got hurt so badly by Misstep because it's a combo deck that utterly relied on its 1cc spells. Goblins gets hurt so bad because it's aggressiveness is completely dependent on turn 1 plays of Vial or Lackey. If an IoK or Mom gets countered by Misstep, that's not really the end of the world. And no one (I hope) is advocating running Doom Blade over StP.

[Rizso]

This same tempo play against Zoo is possible by running Mother of Runes in Moxless. The difference is, come turn 2, you now have an SFM and they're down 1 removal, so you may just be able to get its ability online. Also, you're not down 1 card, which I think can be really dangerous against Zoo. As I said before, MM + IoK + Mom package has the ability to dictate the early game. Mox can too. So the midgame, turn 3+, is where the rubber meets the road in terms of either Zoo or Deadguy pulling out ahead. However, being down 1 card in the midgame versus a deck like Zoo is a huge setback, and MM + IoK + Mom does not have that disadvantage.

Wanting to cut down on 1cc spells due to Misstep is not something most decks really need to worry about doing. 15 land Dredge got hurt so badly by Misstep because it's a combo deck that utterly relied on its 1cc spells. Goblins gets hurt so bad because it's aggressiveness is completely dependent on turn 1 plays of Vial or Lackey. If an IoK or Mom gets countered by Misstep, that's not really the end of the world. And no one (I hope) is advocating running Doom Blade over StP.

You dont go down a card from land mox into a stoneforge its a for 2 for 2 just saying.

I can see mental misstep being a problem if only removal is in form of Swords to Plowshares. Myself I run 4 swords, 4 gatekeepers, 4 vindicates, 3 Misstep and Jitte and in board perish and mortarpod.

[Anthem]

You dont go down a card from land mox into a stoneforge its a for 2 for 2 just saying.

I can see mental misstep being a problem if only removal is in form of Swords to Plowshares. Myself I run 4 swords, 4 gatekeepers, 4 vindicates, 3 Misstep and Jitte and in board perish and mortarpod.

Having more removal helps (and having 4 Gatekeepers makes B/U Reanimator and N.O. decks pretty much a bye), but keeping the 1CMC card count high enough makes sure the StP matters. If I know you're running only 4 StP/Duress/whatever, and I have 4 Missteps, I would keep my Missteps in even if it was the only 1CMC card you had. Especially if I was Reanimator or something. Literally every Misstep in my hand is protection from that one card. It turns into Shock for you, if that. One card of mine stops 4 copies of yours, guaranteed? I'd rather have my opponent make the choice between a Duress now or a StP later, etc.

I guess what I'm saying is that having only 4-6 1CMC cards is the most vulnerable to Misstep you can be. Either you make it a dead card, or you have your opponent make some tough choices like with any other counterspell. That's why for the tourney I chose to have 18 1CMC drops. Mother/Duress/2 IoK/Vial/StP. Almost a 3rd of my deck. If you're playing against a deck with Missteps and and they know your only 1CMC drop is StP, you should board your StP out for something else. They probably won't board out their Missteps.

I wouldn't be quick to say that Chrome Mox is better. They do different things. I think Tim the Enchanter included it in his build because he recognized that his deck is a little slower than traditional Deadguy, and he wanted to make up for some of that. Bitterblossom/Elspeth/Hymn also lessened the CA blow.

An unanswered Stoneforge certainly seals the deal, but I preferred to run 20 creatures because an unanswered MoR/Avenger/Revoker/Confidant seals the game as well. It's almost a philosophical issue. When you play an early Stoneforge, you get Batterskull, because it's your win con, and you have some protection. And that's fine, but it's something I believe Blue does better. When I do the same, I more often get a Sword or Jitte, because I'm about to play 3 more creatures after Stoneforge gets nuked. 20 creatures and low protection or 10 creatures and high protection has been a deckbuilding issue since Magic probably first started. They're both good, and like you said, do different things. I just think your strategy is something Blue does better, and the fact that you've instantly adopted a Blue card because it's so perfect for your strategy only aids my point.

The moment the majority of Deadguy players would rather run a playset of Misstep over a playset of MoR/Vial/More Discard, that's the moment we might as well merge to the Esperblade thread.

[Rizso]

my mana curve is:
0: 3
1: 11
2: 17
3: 7
4: 2
5: 1
Lands: 19
Creatures: 14

As tempting as Esperblade might be 3 colored mana base with wasteland and hymn just opens up to unneccesary losses to wastelands, back to basics and bloodmoons. I prefair to stay Bw and rocking out with Obliterator and gatekeepers and go for the grinding playstyle I prefair to play. Kinda like standard Jund that just 2 for 1 their opponents until there was no return.

As I said before I played both versions :P

[funyun45]

You dont go down a card from land mox into a stoneforge its a for 2 for 2 just saying.

My point wasn't that you'd be down CA vs. Zoo from having SFM killed, but rather that you'd be down CA vs. the Mom + IoK + MM build. For both decks, SFM is run, and so for both decks, SFM replaces itself. But the deck that plays Mom turn 1, then SFM turn 2 will have 1 more card in hand than a deck that plays Mox by pitching a card, drop SFM turn 1. For both possibilities, SFM is getting played, and so replacing itself. The former deck, however, is not losing a card from Mox.

Clearly, one of these is more geared towards tempo advantage and one is more geared towards card advantage. However, I don't think the Mox play is nearly as tempo advantageous as one might think. That's because it means leaving SFM vulnerable to removal. If you went and got a Batterskull, but SFM was killed, you may have made a decent CA play, since your opponent used a card to kill a card that replaced itself in your hand, but this doesn't change the fact that you accomplished nothing profitable against such an aggressive deck. So now you have a Batterskull and no way to cheat it into play. Zoo will kill you before you get the chance to. So the tempo play of getting a first turn SFM down did absolutely nothing. The reason you want to get SFM down against Zoo is not so you can tutor for a Batterskull, but so you can tutor for a Batterskull that you get to cheat into play. If the Batterskull doesn't get into play, you've accomplished nothing tempo-wise.

For this reason I think a turn slower approach is not only more card advantageous, but actually, in a lot of ways, more tempo advantageous. A turn 1 Mom or IoK will accomplish a lot more in terms of making sure that Batterskull comes down as fast as possible than a turn 1 SFM will. And running Misstep, in either build, only helps that strategy too.

[bfeingersh]

Sorry but im too pissed off from Modern. Please go to the Budget-Forum to talk about Modern.

I made another interesting list today, works very well.

snip

That's very close to what I've been running, but with 2 Tops instead of 2 Gatekeepers, Scullers instead of Crusaders, and SoFI instead of SoBaM. How do you feel about cutting Tops?

I also have the miser's Karakas, Urborg and just 1 Fetid Heath rather than the 3 you run.

[Einherjer]

How I feel about cutting Tops? I never played em longer than 5 minutes. I dont like them in Deadguy Ale, its a blue-card if you ask me^^
But i recognized something else... While Gatekeeper is a great card vs NO Reanimator and kinda decent vs alot of Aggro.... it sucks ass when playing Counterbalance... Ive been playing Counterbalance yesterday for like 3 hours and I started hating Gatekeeper, last week i killed him 5-2 without Gatekeeper, yesterday 2-6.... I think this tells us one thing: Hands off Gatekeeper when facing control - I know many of you might have known this already, just saying...

But idk what to play when cutting Gatekeepers...

[Rizso]

Tim seem to run great again. He is 5-1 after 6 rounds. Hope you go to top8!

Edit: Sadly he didnt make it. :( Thought there is 2 BW decks in the top 16, Jonathan Goanos version does looks really intersting, 2 Ghost Quarters in additional to the wastelands in the the deck and path to exile instead of swords.