[Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

[Einherjer]

I would not play a discardheavy version with just a few removals in a meta of Maverick and RUG DelverTempo... I dont know whats the problem of combining discard+removal+boardpresence in a single deck, I mean this decks get so much more weak when youre just packing 2 of this 3 components....

Greetings

[Leto]

Traditional DGA has no board-presence beside T3-Batterskull that can be handled rather easily. It has a bunch of fragile Utility-Critters that die from looking too long at them. That is NOT board-presence.


@Tokenlist

Looks really interesting to me, I'm really waiting for some Test-Reports

[Einherjer]

I did NOT say board-HEGEMONY I said board-PRESENCE, and when youre running only discard and stuff like that you wont have more creatures than just SFM and BOB...

[Rizso]

You really dont need much removal at all against the RuG tempo deck. Vindicate is pretty much dead against the deck compared to other removals and against maverick vindicate isnt enough. After the board against rug i would bring in Engineered Explosives, Delver at 0cc or at 1 cc as well as Mongoose at 1 tarmo at 2 but swords and paths takes care of goyfs with little trubble. If a surgical would ever hit, goyf, tropical island or delver they got so little amount of killing condition that they will have problem taking you down. Key is to not run to many fetch lands in the current meta as stifle will get you.

Against maverick the Explosives goes in again in an additional to paths, perish, mortarpod and probly the second Jitte.

Really do want the discards durring the turn 1,2 and 3 so its possible to reliably to resolve a Bitterblossom or an Elspeth from all the Snapcaster, Spellsnare, Dazes and spellpierces running arround. As much as I love Vindicate i dont feel its the right choice in the current metagame with UWblade/snap, RUG, Reanimator and Maverick Metagame.

[paladin3056]

Currently testing a token version of the deck, and I must say that the combo of BB and Intangible Virtue is game winnning, and if you couple it with equipment and the likes it is very unlikely for you to loose. Can't post yet a definite build, but I can only say that I am currently using a mox build to get an early BB into play.

[Wilkin]

I've tried out Liliana of the Veil and she's insane. About time they made a good black planeswalker. I run the Chrome Mox version so I can cast her as early as 2nd turn, Living the dream is first turn thoughtseize to make sure the coast is clear. I've been running Bloodghast as well since I want to get value with her +1 ability. The thing I really like about her is that she's disruption and creature control.

What is your sideboard tech for Maverick and/or blue/white snapcaster? Those are the only decks at the moment that are giving me problems. My version of Deadguy isn't the token version. Thinking of Running a couple of Massacres in the board as well as a Perish and a Damnation... Added a singleton Lightning greaves to hopefully protect a creature before it gets STP'ed. LOL, i considered running Phyrexian Crusader.

Rug Tempo, I don't think has a good matchup vs deadguy. Their creature count is low and while they have disruption, we do too in discard and we at least play some basic lands (I play 7). And my version of deadguy has 14 cards maindeck that can kill creatures...4 swords, 4 vindicate, 1 jitte, 3 liliana and 2 gatekeeper.

[Abantau]

Here's what I'm currently testing.

I think ratchet and EE will help in the match-up against UR Delver killing all the one drop headaches: Delver, Grim Lava, Goblin guide, while you empty their hands.

Aven is there in order to prevent UW snapblade from searching on equipments.

On SB, Extirpate help prevent flashbacks from snapcaster in a UW snapblade deck.

On the downside, my land base is very susceptible to huge damage from price of progress if ever they drew on it.


Mainboard
4 Stoneforge mystic
4 Dark confidant
3 Aven mindcensor

2 Diabolic edict
4 swords to plowshares

1 batterskull
1 umezawa's jitte
1 sword of feast and famine
1 sword of fire and ice
2 sensei's divining top
2 Ratchet Bomb

4 hymn to tourach
2 thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of kozilek
2 gerard's verdict
3 vindicate

1 elspeth knight errant

4 marsh flats
2 verdant catacombs
3 wasteland
4 scrubland
2 plain
2 swamp
1 urborg tomb of yogmoth
1 karakas
1 bojuka bog
1 volrath's stronghold

Sideboard
4 mindbreak trap
4 extirpate
2 diabolic edict
3 perish
1 manriki gusari
1 vindicate

[Rizso]

Here's what I'm currently testing.

I think ratchet and EE will help in the match-up against UR Delver killing all the one drop headaches: Delver, Grim Lava, Goblin guide, while you empty their hands.

Aven is there in order to prevent UW snapblade from searching on equipments.

On SB, Extirpate help prevent flashbacks from snapcaster in a UW snapblade deck.

On the downside, my land base is very susceptible to huge damage from price of progress if ever they drew on it.


Mainboard
4 Stoneforge mystic
4 Dark confidant
3 Aven mindcensor

2 Diabolic edict
4 swords to plowshares

1 batterskull
1 umezawa's jitte
1 sword of feast and famine
1 sword of fire and ice
2 sensei's divining top
2 Ratchet Bomb

4 hymn to tourach
2 thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of kozilek
2 gerard's verdict
3 vindicate

1 elspeth knight errant

4 marsh flats
2 verdant catacombs
3 wasteland
4 scrubland
2 plain
2 swamp
1 urborg tomb of yogmoth
1 karakas
1 bojuka bog
1 volrath's stronghold

Sideboard
4 mindbreak trap
4 extirpate
2 diabolic edict
3 perish
1 manriki gusari
1 vindicate


Cant say im a fan of your mana base. I see so many forced mulls when the mana base doesnt use Fetid Heaths with lot of plains, bog, stronghold and karakas. IMO bog and karakas are to cute. Wouldnt run them in a deck without Knight of the Reliquary. Mean isnt nearly every plain + bog / karakas draw a mulligan?

Think EE is more powerful the Ratchet Bomb in that its a far faster card at the expence not able to go over 2 counters on it. But its very much castable arround spell snare and counterbalance.


My own list im been working on. Discard Heavy token list.

4 Dark Confidant
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Bitterblossom
2 Blade Splicer
2 Elspeth Knight-Errant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thougthseize
2 Inquision of Kozilek
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach

3 Chrome Mox
4 Marsh Flats
1 Polluted Delta
4 Scrublands
2 Fetid Heaths
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Swamps
1 Plains Still hate this card buts its a necessary evil :P
4 Wastelands

Sideboard
2 Path to Exile
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Perish
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Mortarpod
3 Engineered Explosives

Discard heavy might seem strange but blue decks dont really run much card draw advantech only card selection. There isnt much Ancestral Visions anymore. Discard is there to be able to resolve a 2 dropp through Snapcaster and spellsnare and token generators is there for snapcaster + swords / path/ bolt. Found with the token list, Jitte is searched for alot more then Batterskull there for there is an extra in the board. As you might see the list does lack vindicate, but imo its not that great in the current metagame. Spending 3 mana to kill 1 dropps isnt that great atm. If jace becomes more hot again the vindicates might find its way back in the 75.

An other card i have considered is Cursed Scroll, it eats delvers, snapcasters, stoneforge mystics and many other 2 or lower toughness creatures that are running arround in the current metagame.

[Mansoor]

After my first foray into actually playing Legacy this past weekend at the SCG Invitational with Show and Tell I think I've caught the Legacy bug. Although the deck I played felt very powerful and well positioned, Deadguy looks right up my alley as well as a deck that will not have many bad matchups in any kind of foreseeable metagame thanks to its glut of discard and use of Stoneforge Mystic.

As such, below is the list that I've been working with, albeit on MWS.

// Lands
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
2 Fetid Heath
1 Karakas
1 Snow-Covered Plains
3 Snow-Covered Swamp

// Creatures
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant

// Spells
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Bitterblossom

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Phyrexian Metamorph
SB: 2 Perish
SB: 4 Planar Void
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Serenity
SB: 2 Darkblast
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor

Any advice or criticism would be appreciated! The sideboard isn't exactly set in stone, but the Enlightened Tutor sideboard package seems good to me. Also, after watching many a combo and control player be dismantled by Liliana of the Veil, I certainly find myself wanting to play her, but 3 may be one too many.

As a question: Gerard Fabiano's Team Italia deck doesn't seem to be much different than the traditional Deadguy variants, but he opted for a small splash of red for main deck Grim Lavamancers and Pyroblasts/REBs in his sideboard. Are blue/combo matchups rough enough that REBs/Pyroblasts are necessary?

[fetterfool]

Hello. Long time reader, first time poster. This deck is the bees knees, but I ran into a problem...Bant with Geist of Saint Traft (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Geist%20of%20Saint%20Traft)!! I run 3 Diabolic Edict (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Diabolic%20Edict)s in the side which performs swell against Sneak and Show...but when my Bant playing opponent can just sac Noble Hierarch (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Noble%20Hierarch), Edict underperforms for sure. Phyrexian Metamorph (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Phyrexian%20Metamorph) was the first answer I could think of...but running Enlightened Tutor (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Enlightened%20Tutor) and Metamorph JUST to kill ONE guy in ONE deck seems awful. Liliana of the Veil (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Liliana%20of%20the%20Veil) would add more edicts, but that just doesn't seem like a reliable enough of a method. Open to any and all suggestions, thanks!

[Einherjer]

How about blocking the 2/2 with Gatekeeper or Nighthawk?

[fetterfool]

How about blocking the 2/2 with Gatekeeper or Nighthawk?

Nighthawk, not bad! Forgot to mention potential Elspeth flying pump (won't happen every game, but when it happens you just die..unless maybe a Nighthawk shows up, YEAH!)...and also that they are running removal, meaning that the one or two creatures this deck typically has on the field early game will be flung into exile while Geist (or at least his angel) attacks his way to victory. Nighthawk is awesome suggestion, but still vulnerable to the probably 4 swords to plowshares they are running. Definitely a starting point, but I'd be much more satisfied with a reliable way of getting rid of Geist before he even attacks. I'm not sure if that's asking too much from B/W deadguy or not, and if it is, I will definitely be siding a metamoprh and maindecking nighthawks from now on.

[Mansoor]

I don't think the Enlightened Tutor answer package is bad against these Bant decks! E-Tutor/Metamorph gives you an answer to Geist, a quasi-Stoneforge Mystic (Or Sword.. or Batterskull), a Knight of the Reliquary, or even a Goyf in a pinch!

This little package also give you outs against NO decks and Show/Sneak decks. It also seems to offer a lot of flexibility in a format where there are so many good/viable decks.

[Wilkin]

[QUOTE=fetterfool;608516]Hello. Long time reader, first time poster. This deck is the bees knees, but I ran into a problem...Bant with Geist of Saint Traft (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Geist%20of%20Saint%20Traft)

Edict effects are good. I play Liliana of the Veil and Gatekeeper.

Also good sideboard card IMO is Massacre. It's an infest (-2/-2 all creatures until end of turn) for 4 mana...but if you have a swamp and they have a plains it's free. I like free. It's good against 2 of the more popular decks out there, blue.white stoneforge/snapcaster and Maverick. The free part is awesome, I played massacre against Maverick clearing the board for Liliana to maintain control of the board.

I can deal with Maverick, it's snapcaster blue/white i gotta deal with. If only Magic would start printing Hexproof creatures in colours other than blue and green... I'm so desparate, I put a lightning greaves in the board and I looked up every Pro white creature in black. There aren't many. Boo-urns. And no one hexproof or shroud.

[Einherjer]

Whereas Maverick is a pain in the butt for me aswell, UW(B) Stoneblade-Decks are nothing im scared off. Hymn+Thoughtseize+StP+Vindicate+Bitterblossom bring home the game most of the time - because I always throw Bobs and SFMs out to catch their counters, and once Bitterblossom resolves you just gotta get a Nighthawk/Jitte and the game is over for them.

Greetings


PS:I dont even board anything vs Stoneblades

[Wilkin]

Whereas Maverick is a pain in the butt for me aswell, UW(B) Stoneblade-Decks are nothing im scared off. Hymn+Thoughtseize+StP+Vindicate+Bitterblossom bring home the game most of the time - because I always throw Bobs and SFMs out to catch their counters, and once Bitterblossom resolves you just gotta get a Nighthawk/Jitte and the game is over for them.

Greetings


PS:I dont even board anything vs Stoneblades

Ok, thanks. Hmmm....gonna take out the 3 bloodghasts and put back in the 3 bitterblossoms and see how that goes. I lose the value from pitching the bloodghast to Liliana and the ghast helps somewhat vs. counterbalance but other than that.... But while I find Punishing fire annoying, I can deal with it. At least 8-16 Plowshare/path to exile effects = annoying.

Plus, Maverick can bloodghast with plowshares as well.

[Rizso]

Whereas Maverick is a pain in the butt for me aswell, UW(B) Stoneblade-Decks are nothing im scared off. Hymn+Thoughtseize+StP+Vindicate+Bitterblossom bring home the game most of the time - because I always throw Bobs and SFMs out to catch their counters, and once Bitterblossom resolves you just gotta get a Nighthawk/Jitte and the game is over for them.

Greetings


PS:I dont even board anything vs Stoneblades

Agree, Creature decks, zoo and combo decks are way more scary then the blue decks are. Pretty much only bringing in manriki-Gusari in the UW-blade matchup. Bitterblossom is a beating for any blue decks I feel.

[fetterfool]

[QUOTE=fetterfool;608516]Hello. Long time reader, first time poster. This deck is the bees knees, but I ran into a problem...Bant with Geist of Saint Traft (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Geist%20of%20Saint%20Traft)

Edict effects are good. I play Liliana of the Veil and Gatekeeper.

Also good sideboard card IMO is Massacre. It's an infest (-2/-2 all creatures until end of turn) for 4 mana...but if you have a swamp and they have a plains it's free. I like free. It's good against 2 of the more popular decks out there, blue.white stoneforge/snapcaster and Maverick. The free part is awesome, I played massacre against Maverick clearing the board for Liliana to maintain control of the board.

I can deal with Maverick, it's snapcaster blue/white i gotta deal with. If only Magic would start printing Hexproof creatures in colours other than blue and green... I'm so desparate, I put a lightning greaves in the board and I looked up every Pro white creature in black. There aren't many. Boo-urns. And no one hexproof or shroud.

Massacre. Massacre. thank you, thank you, thank you. I started looking at black cards of the game... got through A and B and haven't gotten back to it yet... you did the work for me!! Massacre is EXACTLY what I was looking for.

And as this guy above me stated, Bitterblossom ruins U/W stoneblade. That deck has no way to deal with blockers that don't go away. Memorable game for me...1 life to 36 life...stablized (thanks to faeries) and batterskull swung me back to win the game. Seriously, if Bitterblossom resolves, Elspth is their only reasonable response, as she just mirrors your bitterblossom at that point...so just Vindicate her.

And seriously, thanks for your input about Massacre, heading to ebay immediately after hitting submit...

[TsumiBand]

[QUOTE=Wilkin;608607]

Massacre. Massacre. thank you, thank you, thank you. I started looking at black cards of the game... got through A and B and haven't gotten back to it yet... you did the work for me!! Massacre is EXACTLY what I was looking for.

And as this guy above me stated, Bitterblossom ruins U/W stoneblade. That deck has no way to deal with blockers that don't go away. Memorable game for me...1 life to 36 life...stablized (thanks to faeries) and batterskull swung me back to win the game. Seriously, if Bitterblossom resolves, Elspth is their only reasonable response, as she just mirrors your bitterblossom at that point...so just Vindicate her.

And seriously, thanks for your input about Massacre, heading to ebay immediately after hitting submit...

Doesn't Massacre wreck just about every dude in our deck too, though? Unless they are outfitted with equipment of course. Do you just play out Liliana and count on her to keep control of their side of the board? It seems like it could work, just seems like it punishes us for having a creature-heavy start too.

[fetterfool]

[QUOTE=fetterfool;609460]

Doesn't Massacre wreck just about every dude in our deck too, though? Unless they are outfitted with equipment of course. Do you just play out Liliana and count on her to keep control of their side of the board? It seems like it could work, just seems like it punishes us for having a creature-heavy start too.

I didn't even think of our side of the board, that's how bad it is when Geist hits the field. He just needs to go away ASAP.

But since you mention, hm... my expierience with the deck shows 3 main routes: 1) early sweet sweet discard heavy hand; 2) turn 1 Bob; 3) turn 1 or 2 stoneforge... or at least I should say those are the hands I think are acceptable and thusly the sort of games my Deadguy provides.

I'm really concerned with early Geist, another point I didn't think to make until now. Later Geist...either you have some faeries mulling around or batterskull has your life total or potential life total at a safe level. To be honest, I haven't even faced a later Geist, my only expierience is two games where Geist hit the field turn 2 and turn 3. But I feel like the earlier he hits, the worse off Deadguy is.

ANYWAY, with all that said... to answer your question, no, I'm not worried about wiping our own field out. Either Geist is such an imminent threat that he needs to be dealt with THIS TURN, or our field is good enough that massacre is unnecessary.

I just want to add, I have yet to even try Liliana. She seems like she would be a good addition, or at least worth testing out. For reference to my experience (which I hold at a higher value than theory, though theory is cool, I guess), I am more or less playing this deck list http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=936761

[Wilkin]

[QUOTE=fetterfool;609460]

Doesn't Massacre wreck just about every dude in our deck too, though? Unless they are outfitted with equipment of course. Do you just play out Liliana and count on her to keep control of their side of the board? It seems like it could work, just seems like it punishes us for having a creature-heavy start too.

Yep Massacre can hurt our deck too. However, my build doesn't play that many actual creatures (about 12) and whatever tokens die, i'm not concerned about. Maverick plays a lot more creatures than Deadguy and the builds I've seen get wrecked by an infest effect....scryb rangers, mom, noble hierarch, dryad arbor, pridemage etc.

Massacre I think is worth it since Maverick has more creatures and relies on them more than us to win the game. I also pack a perish for those really unfair one sided wrath effects.

Never run into Geist in Legacy yet. I'm surprised I haven't seen more of him, especially for those blue/white mirror matches as they both pack like 4 swords to plowshares and at least a few path to exiles. Yeah, massacre is awesome vs Maverick. Not quite as good vs blue/white stoneforge.

[Rizso]

On the the Massacre. In the matchups where you board in massacre, the massacre is gonna ruin your opponents board alot more then your own. Its the same as when playing Engineered Explosives or Damnation.

[bfeingersh]

Massacre doesn't look like something I want to put in DGA's sideboard. What matchups do you need it for that couldn't be solved by EE@1, Perish, Darkblast, etc.?

[fetterfool]

Massacre doesn't look like something I want to put in DGA's sideboard. What matchups do you need it for that couldn't be solved by EE@1, Perish, Darkblast, etc.?

Geist of Saint Traft, man. Perish is ok, but doesn't take care of Geist. SB slots are reeeeeeal limited. I will be trying the Enlightened tutor package with Phyrexian Metamorph/Engineered Plague/extra Jitte AND a Massacre or two at a big tournament next weekend. Will post results.

[CorpT]

Geist of Saint Traft, man. Perish is ok, but doesn't take care of Geist. SB slots are reeeeeeal limited. I will be trying the Enlightened tutor package with Phyrexian Metamorph/Engineered Plague/extra Jitte AND a Massacre or two at a big tournament next weekend. Will post results.

SB slots are limited but you're going to dedicate Tutor, Metamorph, Plague (2?), Jitte and Massacare to dealing with a mediocre card that isn't seen in many decks that is really only a threat when they have an Elspeth too?

If you really want to deal with White creatures, you can run Virtue's Ruin.

[fetterfool]

You might be on to something. I have not yet tested Massacre.

Massacre seems able to deal with Geist Bant, Maverick, and Goblins (as Damnation).

VS.

Kills all white creatures for 3 mana at sorcery:

Kills most things in Bant Geist effectivley, wipes maverick aside from ooze and any goyfs, though massacre probably won't kill those cards either. Also kills white weenies, but is that really a point worth making?

On a quick note refering back to the 'enlightened tutor package,' that is not just for Geist, should have said so...it is for tribals as well (i.e. two tutors plus plague and jitte). Also, I run 1 Planar Void and one crypt. That part of the package is for dredge.

It seems at a quick glance, Virtue's Ruin kills Knight of the Reliquary whereas Massacre doesn't.
Massacre plus all the removal/dicards guarantees victory over Goblins.
Massacre is free to play.

I have no idea which one is really better, defintely worth testing out.

[Rizso]

Not gonna play either Massacre or Ruin atm, running Engineered Explosives and Perish in my board. But I do see the power in both Ruin and Massacre. What I like about Massacre is that you can very easly to arround Spell Pierce.

My current board is:
2 Perish
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Path to Exile
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Umezawa's Jitte (2nd jitte in the 75)
1 Mortarpod
3 Engineered Explosives

The board gives alot of stuff you can put in for discard in the dredge matchup as well changing some discard for sweepers against maverick. 12 Cards that can be brought in the dredge matchup. In the uw blade matchup I like the Manriki-Gusari and the Extraction. Only card you actually want to resolve against the UW deck is Bitterblossom. So thats really the only card that actually matters. Chance of having Dark Confidant or Stoneforge against swords / path with 4 snapcasters is very low.

Against tempo rug, Presuring their hand with discard then its just a matter of time before they cant counter your removal for their delver or goyf.

Not faced any geist yet but Edicts effect is gonna have to do it for now. Not gonna open up in other matchups for something its not a certainty to be facing. Just my opinion.

[esqulax]

Any comments on my list? It has been running allright so far but it is always nice to hear what other people think

3 Serra Avenger
4 Mother of Runes
1 Jötun Grunt
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant

4 Aether Vial
3 Inquistion of Kozilek
4 Hymn To tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vindicate
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
3 Fetid Heath
2 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Marsh Flats
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Arid Mesa

SB:
3 Perish
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Planar Void
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Serenity
1 Sword of War and Peace (was meant to help with Zoo, but thinking about it I will probably fetch Jitte or Batterskull in most situations anyway, so I will likely change this, perhaps to Sword of Light and Shadow just to bring it in during the matchups where the protection is relevant)
1 Engineered Plague
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Circle of Protection Red


I was thinking about adding a single Bayou maindeck just so I can play a single Choke SB with the Enlightened Tutor package. Thoughts?

I was also considering Meekstone SB Since it only really affects my 1 Jötun Grunt, but I am not entirely sure if I want it badly enough to warrant the -1 card from Enlightened Tutor. This might just be more cute than actually effective.

[bfeingersh]

I'm not a fan of Jotun Grunt, the slight benefit you gain by having a 1-of main is not going to be reliable enough to warrant it in many of the matches you want it. It's too slow for Dredge or Reanimator, so if its whole job is shrinking KOTRs (which is a respectable job) I would just as much rather have another removal spell.

I like the idea of Choke in the sideboard.

I think you can cut your Fetid Heaths for the Bayou you want as well as a couple more basics. There's really no need to cut so short on basics.

[esqulax]

Fetid Heath is never coming out, I am abseloutly loving that card. Being able to turn the colorless from Wasteland into mana for Sculler or Hymn has been huge so far.

I have heard a lot of bad things about Grunt, but I figured I would at least give him a try. I know playing him as a one of is not exactly reliable, but it also means that I won't have to worry about ever drawing multiple of him and not being able to cast them all, and he seems like a decent beater at least.

I could perhaps cut a single fetch for the Bayou, but why do you think I need more basics? I have both WW and BB in the deck so lands that only produce 1 mana can bite me in the ass from time to time.

[Richard Cheese]

Fetid Heath is never coming out, I am abseloutly loving that card. Being able to turn the colorless from Wasteland into mana for Sculler or Hymn has been huge so far.


I don't think that's a great reason to run Heath, because at some point you'll come up against an opponent that points out the fact that you can't use colorless mana to activate Heath.

[esqulax]

Bah, Magic is less fun when people actually read the cards and make me feel stupid.

Anyway that changes a lot ^^ I can't say if it wasn't a plains I did it with to hymn turn 2 I honestly forgot, but that definitely means that I can cut back on some of those if not cut them all.

[Einherjer]

It really depends on your basic-landcount. If you play 0-1 Plains Fetid Heath is useless. But when you play more Plains Id really play 1-3 Heaths...

[Rizso]

The basic plains is the biggest reason to play Fetid Heath, plains kinda sucks for the deck. But a neccesary evil to be able to play arround wastelands. Heath makes you able to fetch plains t1 and still able to play t2 Hymn. As well as swamp, swamp wasteland into feath for an Elspeth. Imo heath's enables alot of plays no other lands in the game can offer. IMO a 2 colored deck dont really need to run thoes 8 fetchlands some puts into their Deadguys. Heaths makes you able to play more colored sources without geting into Stifles.

Wouldnt play the deck without the land.

[esqulax]

Yeah True and the downside has rarely come up for me so far. Still it probably means that Heath will be what I cut to make room for the single Bayou rather than a fetch.

Anyway does anyone else have an opinion wether or not the single Bayou for Choke in an Enlightened Tutor package is worth it?

[Mystical_Jackass]

I'm not a fan of Jotun Grunt, the slight benefit you gain by having a 1-of main is not going to be reliable enough to warrant it in many of the matches you want it. It's too slow for Dredge or Reanimator, so if its whole job is shrinking KOTRs (which is a respectable job) I would just as much rather have another removal spell.

I've used Jotun Grunt too, and I kind of felt the same. He was a desc SB against Lands for his ability, but even then not the greatest 'cause... well, swing into Maze, yay. Even for "shrinking" Goyfs and KoTR's, I specifically remember playing against a similar deck like that a while back and my opponent simply waited it out knowing Grunt essentially is like 'Fading 2', then proceeded to win. So basically you get your free swing, but he times out and you're in trouble. Maybe as a one-of he works better from your experience.

[Einherjer]

Im playing it as a 2of Mainboard. Cause in my meta there`re quite alot of BW(X) Midrangedecks, and Jotun is just the mirrorbreaker as Terravore is for Maverick. It just recycles all your destroyed and used stuff and is a 4/4 wall most of the time. I might not play him if there was more Combo to be honest.

[Rizso]

Have you seen the new Sorin? He fits the token generating version of the deck just like Elspeth does. He protects himself with 1/1 lifelinkers. The second ability however is very interesting when running bitterblossom and other token generating sources. This guy is gonna need to be play tested thats for sure.

[Qweerios]

Wow, with the new Sorin, I really feel like revamping Deadguy into Tokenguy. A white base instead of a black base for Spectral Procession would be awesome!
Check this out:


Creatures (8)
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant

Instant/Sorcery (18)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Vindicate
4 Spectral Procession

Artifact/Enchantment (8)
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Batterskull
2 Bitterblossom

Planeswalkers (4)
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Sorin, Lord of Inistrad

Lands (22)
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Windswept Heath
4 Scrubland
3 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Fetid Heath

[Leto]

Your Curve looks way to high to use with Bob
cmc1= 13
cmc2= 11
cmc3= 11 (if Spectral Procession counts in here, not sure about this)
cmc4= 2
cmc5= 1
with 8 Fetchies and PS Thoughtsize looks like a Sui-Build.

I would leave the SFM-Route and try out something more Pox-like with much permanents and tokens, breeding over a List atm

[Rizso]

Your Curve looks way to high to use with Bob
cmc1= 13
cmc2= 11
cmc3= 11 (if Spectral Procession counts in here, not sure about this)
cmc4= 2
cmc5= 1
with 8 Fetchies and PS Thoughtsize looks like a Sui-Build.

I would leave the SFM-Route and try out something more Pox-like with much permanents and tokens, breeding over a List atm

Spectral is actually 6, curve is 1.55.

[GrdiVrag]

Spectral Procession has CMC 6, so it really sucks when you flip it with Bob.

But yeah, the token route is the way to go. I'd try something like this:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic

3 Thoughtseize / Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate

4 Bitterblossom

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of X & Y (I'd pick Fire & Ice)
3 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Sorin, Lord of Inistrad
1 Liliana of the Veil

4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Swamp
2 Plains

[Mystical_Jackass]

Sorin seems kind of ridiculous. Just get Bitterblossom out and/or him, you can simply sit back and chump your way to ultimate, then just win. Who even need emblem (unless you needed Skull to trade witha Goyf or something). I'd throw in a couple E. Tutors and maybe a Ghostly Prison, make it even more aggravating.

[Honorik]

I think we can have a deck like this with the new Sorin :

4 Scrubland
4 Wateland
4 Marsh Flats
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Plains
3 Swamps
1 Karakas

3 Chrome Mox


4 Dark Confidant
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Bitterblossom
2 Intangible Virtue

3 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad

[yutang]

That list is similar to what I was thinking of running.

My list is

-2 Land
-2 Intangible Virtue

+2 Cabal Therapy
+2 Sensei's Divining Top

[Rizso]

Quite sure I would want a split between Elspeth and Sorin in the deck, 2 of each.

Token Generators:
3 Bitterblossom
2 Blade Splicer
2 Elspeth
2 Sorin

Stuff:
4 Bob
4 Stoneforge
1 Jitte
1 Sobm
1 Skull
x Discard spells, Thoughtseize, Cabal Therapy, Inquision of Kozilek, Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords
x Gatekeeper of Malakir

About 22 mana sources, scrubs, Flats / Deltas swamps, plains, Urborg, Wastelands, Heaths, Moxes.

Hate playing with tops as they require more fetchs then we actually need, also the curve is low that its not really needed.

[grim confident]

I feel that a Sorin is sufficient.
More than two Sorin doesn't make sense.:wink:

[Mystical_Jackass]

I'm not sure what people will think of this, but looking at some of the lists people are proposing so far... I almost think it needs a Green splash.

Why?

Because pulling off a win with the new Sorin, some of you are trying so hard to win.. all you need to do is simply 'not lose' the way I see it. And to borrow some key spells from Rock, Lands, etc. green gives you a lot of great options

#1 Acceleration
I'm really more and more not a fan of Chrome Mox, or pretty much most Mox. Why? Because look at your lists, 99% of your spells are 1-2cc that's just a waste of CA... and runnin 3, its like you want to see it but not really almost.
Instead, you could run Birds of Paradise or Noble Heirarch. It doesn't cost you CA and gives you a blocker if needed.

#2 Controlling Board
One thing that came to mind was Maze of Ith. Between token chumping and Maze of Ith, they simply won't be able to kill your planeswalkers. But it really isn't reasonable to just toss a Maze in your deck, so I was thinking maybe run ~3 Crop Rotation to fix mana and hold off. I've used in a G/W deck and it works well. And to add to its effectiveness, throw in like ~2 Flagstones of Trokair, its an awesome combo and I've always gotten players going "sick" when I can pull it off.

Also, simply having access to Goyf and/or Witness would be really helpful. Goyf for simply holding board control, and Witness for grabbing the stuff back that got destroyed, countered, discarded or w/e.

Sylvan Library would be worth having, but only if it fits. I would almost have it over Bob to be honest, in a deck like this.

Another spell for W that nobody mentioned that's completely busted... Mother of Runes. She's ridiculously broken in some decks, they can't remove or destroy anything when she's out, and in a deck that's trying to keep its creatures in play and chump she'd be perfect imo.

[conley1000000]

I dont think green is needed, just play Chrome Mox and a Bernal style deck. Sorin fits its idea well as it was a token based win strategy...
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=42054

[Mystical_Jackass]

I guess that's it then, hyperlink always wins. Thank god for net deck, I guess, otherwise you'd have to think outside of the box aye. :wink:

[Rizso]

I see what you are trying but I wouldnt splash for Goyf. Also its fun as hell baiting dazes with your t1 moxes on the draw. Really dont feel that green gives much to the deck tbh. Not without changing the whole deck to the rock / Junk or some other GWB colored deck. Almost sound like you want us to move over to GW-Maverick :P

The reason to go walkers and tokens is it combat the Snapcaster + removal that so many decks are playing at the moment. Im already running the token list with 2 Elspeth, 3 blossom, 2 blade Splicerd as my token Generators. IMO walkers are just a much larger threat then goyfs when you can clear the way for them with discard spells and keep them safe with multple black or white removal / sweepers.

Apart from the mana and cards that are above 1cc are cards in the deck that gives card advantech.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Sorry I'll admit I've been practicing so many games Maverick, I'm starting to think like only that.

I agree with what you said about walkers, I've been having trouble vs UW (well, who isn't everybody runs it :/) and it'd also be helpful against Jace, too. I've had a pretty reasonable time dealing with snapcaster, Batterskull, Geist, MOM, etc. but it seems like any game they land a Jace It's almost auto loss. So yeah, something that can infinitely pump out tokens it'd have a harder time dealing with once it hits play. That's one weakness of those decks, they don't really have much of any answer to enchantments like Bitterblossom or Sylvan Library if you can get them out. They seem to have a lot of answers to creatures though. It's strange when Goyf is becoming more of a liability, is Legacy turning vintage?

[Rizso]

Its that thoes 6/7 vanila creature for 2 mana just isnt enought for legacy atm! :P

Snapcaster really did hurt most creature decks alot, its pretty much the reason why Geist of Saint Traft has exploded in playability in legacy. So its not that strange maverick is also moving away from Tarmogoyfs in favor of the ooze wich kind counter snapcaster mages.

[paladin3056]

Intangible Virtue is hard to pass up, I had been testing a token version even before Sorin, and having a Bitterblossom combined with Intangible Virtue gives you a 2/2 vigilance, flying faerie which is nearly comparable to a Serra Avenger, plus with swords I have a 4/4 pro color vigilance and flying and works even better with Jitte which would generate twice as normal counters, makes your opponents think twice before attacking you if he doesn't want to make your jitte even bigger. The other good thing is that he makes our germ token into a 5/5 vigilance lifelink creature as well.

Had a couple of games where when I drop this combination gives an autowin, its hard to beat if my opponent can't attack without being chump blocked by my faeries who are also attacking as well.

But now with Sorin it gives my deck a whole new weapon to beat creatures and planeswalkers and at the same time generate more tokens, having 2/2 vigilance, lifelink tokens would net you 4 life in total (that is if you attacked unblocked and block next turn) but yeah that is a huge life swing in our favor.

[Wilkin]

Intangible Virtue is hard to pass up, I had been testing a token version even before Sorin, and having a Bitterblossom combined with Intangible Virtue gives you a 2/2 vigilance, flying faerie which is nearly comparable to a Serra Avenger, plus with swords I have a 4/4 pro color vigilance and flying and works even better with Jitte which would generate twice as normal counters, makes your opponents think twice before attacking you if he doesn't want to make your jitte even bigger. The other good thing is that he makes our germ token into a 5/5 vigilance lifelink creature as well.

Had a couple of games where when I drop this combination gives an autowin, its hard to beat if my opponent can't attack without being chump blocked by my faeries who are also attacking as well.

But now with Sorin it gives my deck a whole new weapon to beat creatures and planeswalkers and at the same time generate more tokens, having 2/2 vigilance, lifelink tokens would net you 4 life in total (that is if you attacked unblocked and block next turn) but yeah that is a huge life swing in our favor.

How many token generating cards do you run? Bitterblossom and Elspeth (and you can run Sorin 2.0 now )? IMHO, in order for Intangible Virtue to be awesome you'll need to run A LOT of token generation.

I think Virtue to be a little win more because for example Bitterblossom on its own usually puts a lot of pressure on your opponent. Same with Elspeth and Now Sorin. Also, you could run into a situation where you have virtue out and no tokens...

I say that because I run equipment and at times I have equipment out and no creature to put it on. Virtue could be the same thing, IMO where it's out and it does nothing.

[Shawon]

I kept thinking about the new Sorin card in Dark Ascension that I built up a list trying to break his synergy with him and Bitterblossom. Here's what I came up with, after some bad attempts:


4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
4 [R] Scrubland
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ZEN] Swamp (4a)
1 [ZEN] Plains (2)
1 [A] Tundra
1 [R] Underground Sea
3 [EVE] Fetid Heath
1 [SHM] Sunken Ruins
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [MOR] Bitterblossom
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
3 [DKA] Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 [MBS] Sword of Feast and Famine
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
1 [NPH] Batterskull
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (4)
3 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil
2 [AP] Vindicate
SB: 3 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
SB: 1 [MR] Ancient Den
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of the Void


The sideboard is kinda freaky, but I like the concept of using Enlightened Tutor to set up a CounterTop against combo. It may not be necessary but it felt cool to try. Haven't tried it against combo though.

The strength of this deck is being very threat-dense, or topdeck-heavy. With a relatively low curve and full playsets of Bob, Stoneforge, and Bitterblossom, with 3 Chrome Mox to boot, this deck can make some must-answer plays fast and easily.

I guess the only debate about using Sorin is that he is arguably weaker than Elspeth. I built this deck with Sorin in mind and originally I wanted to make it triple color so I could justify running Sorin over Elspeth, but now I've just reverted to BW and the deck has an easy time reaching WW so I guess I don't have a reason to prefer Sorin over Elspeth due to color reasons. I don't know, I like Sorin's ability to play defense, but I don't know if it's more needed than Elspeth being able farther out of burn range and being a better offense.

Thoughts?

[Rizso]

Whats the blue mana for?? Counterbalance really?

I would split between elspeth and Sorin, myself thinking of 2 Sorin 2 Elspeths. Also think 25 mana sources is some lands to many. Also that board of yours have wasted so many spaces. Counterbalance, tops, artifactland? Tutor or Leyline is fine but not both.. Also 3 plagues are to many when using the tutor. Also imo the blue splash puts an unneccesary strain on the mana base. Would much rather use wastelands, there are many annoying lands in the format atm. Tower of Magistrate, Maze of Ith as well the power to color screw greedy manabases. IMO there is alot better anti combo cards then counterbalance without a counterbalance shell.

For Intangible Virtue its just not that great tbh. It really doesnt do anything alone. And would require alot more then just bitterblossom and walkers for token generators.

I have play tested the Spectral Procession version of the token deck. While i like the card it makes bob alot more dangerous and forces to use Top. TBH I dont like the top at all in the deck. Its slow and take up mana, mana I would much rather use to develope the board or use to equip with. Picking between bob and spectral isnt a a hard choice exactly.

Cant wait til I get my hands on a pair of Sorins!

[yutang]

Rizso, have you considered using all 3 planeswalkers (Sorin, Elspeth and Lili) in the same deck. Say we have 5 slots open for planeswalkers, what ratio would you use them in?

I'm thinking
2 Sorin
2 Elspeth
1 Lili

or should it be 1 Elspeth and 2 Lili? It seems strong to be planeswalker heavy in a build with Bitterblossom

[Rizso]

Yes, i have considered Liliana as well a Gideon in the board. I am very open to try out new cards for the deck. Thought in the current meta i dont like 2cc or 3cc singeltarget removal. I cut vidicate for this very reason.

[Mystical_Jackass]

And we get another toy...

Vault of the Archangel
Land
T: add :1: to your mana pool.
2:b::w:T: creatures you control gain deathtouch and lifelink till the end of turn.

Yay, mystics and bobs can potentially take down Knights & Goyfs late game, and I'd love to see a token kill one too. This looks like a solid 1-of addition, which isn't horrible if you run a couple Urborgs.

[Rizso]

I really do like that land thought not sure its legacy material. Making every attack and block for my opponent is pretty awesome thought. If added to the deck it would be added as a spell not as a land. Will probly try it out even in legacy, threat of activation in that land is just so strong.

[Einherjer]

Honestly...what are you guys doing? First of all: Does Deadguy Ale have problems in the Late-Game? Rarely... Why adding lands and stuff that are only good in the Lategame - there is hardly a deck that is a threat for us once we reached the lategame safely - only NicFit and Maverick may be... I mean honestly... this land is no legacy to be honest...


But the Sorin and all the tokens list do look good :)

Greetings

[Wilkin]

I really do like that land thought not sure its legacy material. Making every attack and block for my opponent is pretty awesome thought. If added to the deck it would be added as a spell not as a land. Will probly try it out even in legacy, threat of activation in that land is just so strong.

I don't like the land for legacy... 4 mana is quite a lot to activate. Also, Deadguy already runs quite a few lands that produce colorless mana.

Eg. I run 4 wastelands in a 20 land deck. I don't even have space to run Volrath's Stronghold. If I can't fit in that card, there's no way I can fit in that new land.

I like Sorin, not sure if I'm gonna use him. Liliana IMHO is better because it can come out a turn earlier and is awesome vs creature light decks (and even does well vs Maverick from the games I've played) and vs non-graveyard combo decks. I've locked out games where I would thoughtseize first turn and then play Liliana 2nd turn (w chrome mox).

[paladin3056]

How many token generating cards do you run? Bitterblossom and Elspeth (and you can run Sorin 2.0 now )? IMHO, in order for Intangible Virtue to be awesome you'll need to run A LOT of token generation.

I think Virtue to be a little win more because for example Bitterblossom on its own usually puts a lot of pressure on your opponent. Same with Elspeth and Now Sorin. Also, you could run into a situation where you have virtue out and no tokens...

I say that because I run equipment and at times I have equipment out and no creature to put it on. Virtue could be the same thing, IMO where it's out and it does nothing.

Its true that it would require a lot of token producers to make intangible really useful so I played around the deck to make do so, I also added in chrome mox to make use of intangible if I ever draw it in my opening hand and I have no token producers.

I don't agree with intangible being a win more, it has already become quite difficult to win with just faerie tokens alone now with UW decks stuffing in SFM with the usual equipment package. Intangible gives the tokens an extra edge which our creatures definitely lack.


For Intangible Virtue its just not that great tbh. It really doesnt do anything alone. And would require alot more then just bitterblossom and walkers for token generators.

At first glance it doesn't look great at all, but really we can't just discount a card without testing of course. If I see that Intangible proves to be useless as most of you think then I would be moving on to another strategy, nothing wrong with play testing it first before dismissing.

On other news, gravedigger cage is now our new overall dredge (although doesn't stop the onslaught of zombie tokens) and reanimator hoser, stops GSZ from playing singleton goyfs and stops annoying snapcasters from abusing graveyards. And all that in one card, wizards must be giving us new arsenal to stop graveyard and library mechanics and it just costs only :1: freaking mana.

check the link here: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=385201

[yutang]

Another card for this deck: Midnight Haunting with 1B Flashback in DKA. definitely a 2-3 of in the token decks and can replace Spectral Procession.

[paladin3056]

Another card for this deck: Midnight Haunting with 1B Flashback in DKA. definitely a 2-3 of in the token decks and can replace Spectral Procession.

Definitely better than Spectral Procession, needs to be countered twice to be stopped, and doesn't cause 6 damage when flipped with Bob. Has a better card advantage than its predecessors and can be discarded with LotV to gain tempo. Too bad this is also affected by then new hoser.

[makochman]

Definitely better than Spectral Procession, needs to be countered twice to be stopped, and doesn't cause 6 damage when flipped with Bob. Has a better card advantage than its predecessors and can be discarded with LotV to gain tempo. Too bad this is also affected by then new hoser.

People will not be bringing Grafdiffer's Cage against us, it does not affect us in any other way. If they do, it's good news for us. In fact those of us that use Enlightened Tutor toolboxes could use that card. In black, Extirpates and Perishes seem better though.

The new Spectral Procession, Lingering Souls, is indeed a very welcome addition to the Deadguy arsenal. It's easier on the manabase than Spectral Procession. I must say I am more excited about it than about Sorin.

[paladin3056]

People will not be bringing Grafdiffer's Cage against us, it does not affect us in any other way. If they do, it's good news for us. In fact those of us that use Enlightened Tutor toolboxes could use that card. In black, Extirpates and Perishes seem better though.

The new Spectral Procession, Lingering Souls, is indeed a very welcome addition to the Deadguy arsenal. It's easier on the manabase than Spectral Procession. I must say I am more excited about it than about Sorin.

I actually meant when we side it in against our opponent we won't be able to get its full potential, but should just be a minor drawback I think. I would definitely use Grafdigger Cage in my enlightened tool box, it can do so much against my enemy, but of course I won't remove the usual package.

Yeah easier on the mana base and flashback makes it even better than Spectral Procession it gives 4 for 1 if you think about it. As for Sorin, I still like him, but the price on him is preventing me from getting any of it unless I get it from a booster or a box.

[Rizso]

At least you wont be needed a playset of Sorin for the deck :P Only need about 2 or so.

[TsumiBand]

Very yes to Lingering Souls being better than Spectral Procession. Basic Plains are not the greatest land for this deck to deal with and it's nice to be able to run Wasteland without kind of flinching at that ugly 2/W mana symbol. For as often as Spectral Procession would cost 2WW anyway, Lingering Souls will be (2W, 1B) and if you're running it to abuse Cabal Therapy will leave you with +1 token.

edit - ugh wait, it's 2W, flashback 1B. I dunno about that.

[paladin3056]

At least you wont be needed a playset of Sorin for the deck :P Only need about 2 or so.

Yeah, hopefully his price goes down once the hype dies down.


Very yes to Lingering Souls being better than Spectral Procession. Basic Plains are not the greatest land for this deck to deal with and it's nice to be able to run Wasteland without kind of flinching at that ugly 2/W mana symbol. For as often as Spectral Procession would cost 2WW anyway, Lingering Souls will be (2W, 1B) and if you're running it to abuse Cabal Therapy will leave you with +1 token.

edit - ugh wait, it's 2W, flashback 1B. I dunno about that.

Yeah quite perfect with Cabal Therapy. Although it would take 5 mana to get 4 tokens, having flash back is a plus to it since your opponent has to counter it twice to stop it.

[yutang]

How is this for a preliminary list with the new cards?

4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
3 Bitterblossom
2 Lingering Souls
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Liliana of the Veil
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Vindicate
3 Chrome Mox
2 Fetid Heath
4 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
2 Swamp
4 Scrubland
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Plays like a traditional Deadguy list with a token theme.

[Rizso]

Replaced 1 of my 3 Gatekeeper of Malakir with a Liliana, so running one of her atm.

[Rizso]

Gotten my hands of over a Sorin, my first impression is that he works really good in the token version of the deck. He is working side by side of my Liliana and Elspeth's :P

[igri_is_a_bk]

The tokens version of Deadguy is just awesome. I've been playing a list for two days and I'm finding a lot of success. Souls is just nuts. It's like a Squadron Hawk that puts them all into play, instead of your hand. With Sorin and SFM to find equipment, the token plan is sick.

I found that life loss was sometimes an issue, so I switched a couple Thoughtseize for IoK. I lost a couple games because I couldn't stabilize with a Jitte-equipped token or Batterskull, so reducing life loss in the early game seemed necessary.

Liliana hasn't been great so far. I started with two and she's down to one now. I could see her being awesome with Bob in play, but that hasn't happened for me yet.

I'm not sure I'd play Therapy in the token version. You don't really want to sac off your tokens to Therapy. You'd rather equip them, or chump if you have a Batterskull, or race with fliers and your removal. I'll try it out eventually, but my intuition tells me I won't like Therapy. I really want hit something turn one and a blind swing won't always get there.

Here's what I've been playing. Again, I'm really liking this version and recommend each one of you test Souls and Sorin.

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [B] Scrubland
2 [UNH] Plains
2 [UNH] Swamp
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic

// Spells
2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
2 [ROE] Inquisition of Kozilek
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach
2 [MOR] Bitterblossom
4 [DKA] Lingering Souls
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AP] Vindicate
1 [MBS] Sword of Feast and Famine
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [NPH] Batterskull
1 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil
2 [DKA] Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

[paladin3056]

The tokens version of Deadguy is just awesome. I've been playing a list for two days and I'm finding a lot of success. Souls is just nuts. It's like a Squadron Hawk that puts them all into play, instead of your hand. With Sorin and SFM to find equipment, the token plan is sick.

I found that life loss was sometimes an issue, so I switched a couple Thoughtseize for IoK. I lost a couple games because I couldn't stabilize with a Jitte-equipped token or Batterskull, so reducing life loss in the early game seemed necessary.

Liliana hasn't been great so far. I started with two and she's down to one now. I could see her being awesome with Bob in play, but that hasn't happened for me yet.

I'm not sure I'd play Therapy in the token version. You don't really want to sac off your tokens to Therapy. You'd rather equip them, or chump if you have a Batterskull, or race with fliers and your removal. I'll try it out eventually, but my intuition tells me I won't like Therapy. I really want hit something turn one and a blind swing won't always get there.

Here's what I've been playing. Again, I'm really liking this version and recommend each one of you test Souls and Sorin.

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [B] Scrubland
2 [UNH] Plains
2 [UNH] Swamp
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic

// Spells
2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
2 [ROE] Inquisition of Kozilek
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach
2 [MOR] Bitterblossom
4 [DKA] Lingering Souls
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AP] Vindicate
1 [MBS] Sword of Feast and Famine
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [NPH] Batterskull
1 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil
2 [DKA] Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

Great work on your list. The life loss has also been an issue for me in my testing, once against UR delver I had a stable play of BB and Intangible so his delvers are now useless against my flying vigilance 2/2's, but then my opponent burned me with Price of progress and Firebolt (I was down to 8 life then with 2 non basic lands). Would have won if he didn't had any burn ready.

In the side I am considering COP red, another card I'm thinking to put would be timely reinforcements, nets us 6 life and probably 3 tokens if my opponent gets a head start with the creatures.

If UR delver is prevalent in your meta I suggest dropping some fetches for basic lands because of Stifle and Price of progress. The fetches also greatly contribute to the life loss in the deck so i suggest dropping some to avoid losing too much life. In a meta full of burn and UR delver I think that life has become a very important commodity.

Edit: There fixed, got them mixed up

[lavafrogg]

Price of progress? Pillar would be a great card to bring in considering the current low cc meta game:/

[Richard Cheese]

The tokens version of Deadguy is just awesome. I've been playing a list for two days and I'm finding a lot of success. Souls is just nuts. It's like a Squadron Hawk that puts them all into play, instead of your hand. With Sorin and SFM to find equipment, the token plan is sick.

I found that life loss was sometimes an issue, so I switched a couple Thoughtseize for IoK. I lost a couple games because I couldn't stabilize with a Jitte-equipped token or Batterskull, so reducing life loss in the early game seemed necessary.

Liliana hasn't been great so far. I started with two and she's down to one now. I could see her being awesome with Bob in play, but that hasn't happened for me yet.

I'm not sure I'd play Therapy in the token version. You don't really want to sac off your tokens to Therapy. You'd rather equip them, or chump if you have a Batterskull, or race with fliers and your removal. I'll try it out eventually, but my intuition tells me I won't like Therapy. I really want hit something turn one and a blind swing won't always get there.

Here's what I've been playing. Again, I'm really liking this version and recommend each one of you test Souls and Sorin.

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [B] Scrubland
2 [UNH] Plains
2 [UNH] Swamp
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic

// Spells
2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
2 [ROE] Inquisition of Kozilek
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach
2 [MOR] Bitterblossom
4 [DKA] Lingering Souls
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AP] Vindicate
1 [MBS] Sword of Feast and Famine
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [NPH] Batterskull
1 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil
2 [DKA] Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

Why no Elspeth, the WW? I think with that list I'd almost rather run Therapy over Hymn, and drop Lilliana for Elspeth, maybe get a second one in there somewhere. That way you can lead with IoK/Duress/whatever and follow with therapy...could get really brutal since you're rarely going to be short on sac outlets.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Why no Elspeth, the WW? I think with that list I'd almost rather run Therapy over Hymn, and drop Lilliana for Elspeth, maybe get a second one in there somewhere. That way you can lead with IoK/Duress/whatever and follow with therapy...could get really brutal since you're rarely going to be short on sac outlets.

While I was building, it came down to Elspeth vs. Sorin and for the token version, I want to try Sorin for a bit. I know the power level of Elspeth, and from a traditional perspective, I think she is stronger. Although, I think Sorin has more synergy with the tokens. Life gain is really nice for us and the emblem is brutal with multiple guys out, which is usually the case.

However, it does make sense to replace the Liliana with Elspeth. Again, because she has more synergy.

[ForlornEgoist]

Hey, so, I've been playing Rock for the longest time however, as much as I love it, I have been having issues with consistency. I can't seem to play a build I like, be it GSZ or SF or just plain ol' classic control-Rock. I've been thinking that with some of the new cards available it may be time to switch back to a Deadguy build.

I'm not going to post theoretical builds as I've played Deadguy for several years and have a good understand of its mechanics so I'm just going to ask a few general questions:

Sorrin: How has his playtesting gone thus far? Is he worth the investment of $ or card capital? I wouldn't dream of snagging him while he sits at an inflated value, but have any of you been experiencING noticeable advantageS with him in the deck?

Mother of Runes: The main Rock build I currently run has 2 MoR and I've noticed that in the meta shift atm I'm dealing more with counters and less with targeted removal. So, is she less a necessity for Deadguy in the current meta? At the time I left Deadguy she was an auto 4-of but looking at some of the lists I've seen lately it seems as though Sorrin/token generation are the new hotness.

Thanks.

Forlorn Egoist

[DLifshitz]

Mother of Runes: The main Rock build I currently run has 2 MoR and I've noticed that in the meta shift atm I'm dealing more with counters and less with targeted removal. So, is she less a necessity for Deadguy in the current meta? At the time I left Deadguy she was an auto 4-of but looking at some of the lists I've seen lately it seems as though Sorrin/token generation are the new hotness.

From experience with the Aether Vial (D&T-like) list, I can say MoR is is an automatic 4-of in it for the following reasons:
- The deck relies heavily on protecting Bob and/or SFM, and on connecting with equipped creatures, most of which lack evasion. MoR enables that.
- Mother is MVP in the Maverick matchup. Especially if they play Punishing Fire, which is difficult for us to deal with. There are relatively few sweepers in the format now, so Mother is quite difficult for most non-combo decks to play around once you untap with it.
- It's good to play 1-drops to maximize the utility of Vial, and there are no other relevant 1-drops in BW colors. The combination of Vial, a low mana curve and protection from MoR allows the deck to build up a board presence very rapidly and maintain it against removal.

In the tokens list, on the other hand, most of your creatures will fly, and you are much less dependent on protecting any single creature, so I believe MoR should probably go to make room for something else. I also believe all tokens lists should play 3 Chrome Mox as their acceleration, which allows them to slant the mana curve towards 2- and 3-drops, so it seems natural that MoR doesn't go in those lists. Just my 0.02 $.

[funyun45]

From experience with the Aether Vial (D&T-like) list, I can say MoR is is an automatic 4-of in it for the following reasons:

I play a non Vial list and let me tell you, Mom belongs in those builds as an auto 4-of too. As you said, she's the only playable 1-drop creature BW has, and our creatures are the kind that need to be protected. Both of these are true regardless of whether you run Vial.

[paladin3056]

Sorrin: How has his playtesting gone thus far? Is he worth the investment of $ or card capital? I wouldn't dream of snagging him while he sits at an inflated value, but have any of you been experiencING noticeable advantageS with him in the deck?

I would say Sorin is the MVP of my deck. During my playtest, he becomes the must answer card because: one he produces lifelink tokens, this allows us to recover from continual usage Bob and TS; two the emblem he creates is very strong because it is immune to any kind of removal, so dropping at least one makes any creature we play have an extra power which is quite relevant; and finally his ultimate can answer your opponents finisher, either creature or planeswalker cough Jace cough, if sorin has 6 loyalty counter your opponent would be hesitant to drop a goyf or a jace while he is in play... But all this is just based from my Token Build, I'll try testing him in a normal build and see if it fits.

As for its value, I suggest waiting for a while and feel if its value would go down.

[Jacemindbreak]

4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Arid Mesa
2 Swamp
2 Plains

4 Signal Pest
3 Stoneforge Mystic

1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Raise the Alarm
4 Lingering Souls
3 Spectral Procession

4 Bitterblossom

2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Liliana of the Veil

I like the token build. Although Bob still needs to fit in somewhere. Any idea what to take out? And Signal Pest with a sword is funny.

[igri_is_a_bk]

I think you're overdoing the tokens output in that list. With the cards you're playing, I'd go white with a small black splash for blossom, Souls, and Sorin. I'd probably use Intangible Virtue and Leyline of the Meek, but this is Deadguy so...

...don't cut Vindicate. It's probably the best spell in the deck. Also, don't cut Dark Confidant. It's also the best spell in the deck. :wink:

There's no way Signal Pest, Raise the Alarm, and Spectral Procession win you more games than Confidant, Vindicate, Batterskull, Hymn, or Top would. I mean, just compare the cards and it should be obvious.

Bitterblossom is good as a 4-of. I'd have included more if I had space in my list. That card does work every time I cast it early.

[timmycolossus]

I also like the token build here is my list.


DeadGuy Ale
Creatures 8
4x dark confidant
4x stoneforge mystic

Sorcery 12
4x hymn to torach
4x thoughtseize
4x Vindicate

Instant 4
4x swords

Planeswalker 2
2x Sorin, lord of innistrad

Enchantment 4
4x Bitterblossom

Artifact: 8
1x batterskull
1x jitte
1x sword of war and peace
1x sword of body and mind
4x relic of progenitus

Land 22
4x wasteland
4x scrubland
4x marsh flats
2x plains
3x swamp
4x verdant catacombs
1x bloodstained mire

I might do a split of 2x sensei's top and 2x relic. Test this out and tell me what you think.

[unicoerner]

I am testing the Token version right now.
It feels that we could need 2-3 Chrome Moxes for good turn 1 plays besides discard.
I think playing without Bob might be good, because targeted removal by our is mitigated.

I play a Tutor board, but i really can't figure out what to board out.
Most times it hits the Raise the Alarm, but what else could i board out vs decks like Maverick or other kinds of aggo decks.
Its not much, but if i bring sth in, i should board some Tutors with it

[Rizso]

After almost a whole day of playtesting today i would say that Liliana is a very strong card for the deck in pretty much all the blue matchups. I did get to ultimate her against an enchanter deck. But most of the time she did her +1, she is just stripping opponents of resourses. But overall I fell like do get either mana screwed or manaflooded wich is pretty damn annoying with 20 lands + 3 Chrome Moxes. 5 Fetch and 4 wastelands. Would have won more matches if drawing some of my removal 4 swords 3 Liliana main with 2 paths 3 EE and 2 Perishes in the board.

Quite pleased with the list atm with all the planeswalkers. Might want to go up to 4 Bitterblossoms from 3. Bitterblossom is just a beating for most decks, greatly overwhelm the board over time. Did get to have some Faeries with Sorin emblem wich is pretty much as good as it sounds like :P No Sorin Ultimate as of yet but did get to Liliana ultmate that destroyed my opponents half amount of lands taking him out of reach to able to win.

A sideboard card i havent been to happy about is the Gusari-Manriki. It requires alot of setup. Need that stoneforge, needs a creature that doesnt have summoning sickness.

Still havent tried out Lingering Souls yet but it does looks quite good. Specialy when playing with Liliana. Been thinking of having a Crucible of the Worlds in the board for a while might do it.. or something more crazy like testing out Howltooth Hollow or Windbrisk Heights.

[unicoerner]

Hi,
what does your sideboard look like when playing the token version?
I seem to struggle vs aggro decks.

Any solutions? in a Tutor board>?

[Rizso]

My board is:
2 Perish
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Path to Exile
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Mortarpod
1 Manriki-Gusari
3 Engineered Explosives

Got quite good matchup again blue decks (uw-blade, RUG-delver), dredge and about even even withmaverick (really depends on their board) but below 50% against burn, UR delver / burn, zoo as well with random decks elves, random combos.

[from Cairo]

My board is:
2 Perish
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Path to Exile
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Mortarpod
1 Manriki-Gusari
3 Engineered Explosives

Got quite good matchup again blue decks (uw-blade, RUG-delver), dredge and about even even withmaverick (really depends on their board) but below 50% against burn, UR delver / burn, zoo as well with random decks elves, random combos.

Have you tested Extirpate versus Surgical Extraction? I like Surgical's casting cost when paired with Hymn to Torach and they're functionally pretty similar versus Snapcaster.dec, but versus Reanimator, Thopters and anything Loam based Split Second can be a gigantic difference in the power of the Lobotomy-effect.

Also do you find Relic of Progenitus to be needed as further graveyard hate with Surgical Extraction? Versus Dredge you have SFM -> Mortarpod and presumably some number of Liliana of the Veil to combat Reanimator.

What's the thought on the Engineered Explosives?

[Rizso]

IMO mana cost is way more important then the split second.

Thoughts for engineered explosives are quite simple loads of 0-2 cc permanents are being played atm. Being able to sweep away 2x delvers for just 2 mana in a card is quite big as well able to play arround random counterbalances and chalice of the voids. Also it splashs into the dredge matchup where it blowsup zombie tokens.

Just 3 Surgical Extractions wont be winning the dredge matchup. Deck doesnt run brainstorm and snapcaster. Really never use Surgical for the Lobotomy-effect.

Most of the board cards splashs into diffrent matchups.

Joe Bernal is 4-0 with a lingering soul powered Deadguy in the legacy open atm.

[from Cairo]

I've just started testing this archetype again recently (having played around with it a bit around Zendikar) with the new tools offered in Liliana of the Veil, Lingering Souls and Sorin, Lord of Innistrad it seems like it's gained a lot of ground.

Locally lately my meta's been: GW Zenith, UW Blade decks, RDWs, little to no combo, so my list is tuned to that. I figured I would offer it out for feedback, anyway here's what I'm currently trying...

Land 22
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
3 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Fetid Heath
2 Swamp
1 Plains

Sorceries 13
4 Vindicate
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Lingering Souls

Artifacts 8
3 Chrome Mox
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

Creatures 7
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic

Instants 4
4 Swords to Plowshares

Planeswalkers 4
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Enchantments 2
2 Bitterblossom

Sideboard 15
3 Extirpate
2 Pithing Needle
2 Perish
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Darkblast
1 Bitterblossom
1 Mortarpod
1 Nature's Ruin

Initially the Sword of Feast and Famine has felt like the loosest slot. I'm considering trying to fit a Sorin, Lord of Innistrad or Loxodon Warhammer in that slot. Having the Lifelink - provided by either - would be nice to support the combination of Thoughtseize, Dark Confidant and Bitterblossom. I'd consider Batterskull, but I feel like any time you go for it early, the SFM get's removed and it's stranded in hand for days, w/o counter/Mom protection it's hard to keep SFM on board if your opponent doesn't want it there. Loxodon Warhammer also appealed to me as a means of pushing tokens through stand offs to hit in at Planeswalkers. Looking at the Sideboard, perhaps 1 of the Perish effects would serve better as a cheaper removal spell maybe a Deathmark or Ghastly Demise. IDK, just some ideas I was looking for more input on.

[Rizso]

Do think your list needs more Bitterblossoms, its one of the strongest cards in the deck.

[from Cairo]

Do think your list needs more Bitterblossoms, its one of the strongest cards in the deck.

It's definitely very strong especially against UW Blade decks / control in general. I find it a tough card to always work with against agro.

My issue with going up on numbers of it is casting multiples is rarely desirable. I'm running somewhat heavy on pointed discard with the idea that all 7 of my discard spells can hit Spell Snare and 5 can hit Force of Will, so I can hopefully push Blossom onto the table reliably when I do get to them. I'm running the 3rd Bitterblossom to board in against control, along side Pithing Needles for Jace and Extirpate (over Plows and Chromes). I could try the 4th, but honestly the control matches, while grindy, feel pretty favored with the current threat density.

In my experience Bitterblossom can be a troublesome card to draw into in the midgame if you're in unfavorable board state as well. The fact that it takes that extra upkeep to start providing blockers can be all the difference - especially if they have a removal spell. So I've been trying the 2/2 split of it with Lingering Souls. Souls is great against Blade too, but it's immediacy can make it better against agro.

It might not be right, but that was the logic behind it anyway.

[wert]

I have not tested your deck but in most cases, I like to run three Bitterblossoms. You are right about it being a what-to-do-with-it card to draw in midgame when you are behind in health or creatures or both. Maybe with Lingering Souls. 2 would just fine.

But why Chrome Mox and Sensei's Divining Top? I am more in favour of more removal or discards or maybe even creatures. Doom Traveler? Nighthawks?

[DLifshitz]

Congratulations to Joe Bernal and Jeff Cosgrove for taking innovative BW and BWG builds into the Top 16 at Memphis today.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&start_date=2011-12-04&end_date=2012-02-26&event_ID=20&city=Memphis

I can hardly believe that a card such as Zealous Persecution has turned out to be playable in Legacy, even in the best possible deck for it and with a lot of X/1's seeing play.

At any rate, much of this Top 16 seems unusual for today's Legacy.

[from Cairo]

I have not tested your deck but in most cases, I like to run three Bitterblossoms. You are right about it being a what-to-do-with-it card to draw in midgame when you are behind in health or creatures or both. Maybe with Lingering Souls. 2 would just fine.

Yea, as admitted, I'm not sure it's correct. Versus Blade Control I go up to 3, versus 39Lands, I'd go up to 3, etc. My meta has a fair amount of RDW where frankly Bitterblossom is outright bad, as 1 copy, as 3 copies, it's bad. I mean the 2 copies come out games 2-3 as well as the 2x Thoughtseize for the 2x Timely Reinforcements and 2x Leyline of Sanctity and a couple Extirpate over Confidants. It's not perfect, but I think Bitterblossom can be a large liability against any agro decks that are packing substantial removal - Zoo, RDWs, sometimes RUG Delver etc. And as we both acknowledged Lingering Souls is no slouch against control decks, especially with Cabal Therapies.


But why Chrome Mox and Sensei's Divining Top? I am more in favour of more removal or discards or maybe even creatures. Doom Traveler? Nighthawks?

Chrome Mox is there because my curve has 10 2 drops, 10 3 drops and 2 4 drops, with Sensei's Top, Lingering Souls, the Jitte and the 2 Swords tying up more mana than there CMCs. Admittedly the deck has a lot of turn 1 play @ 16, but the deck is piled with heavier casting cost 2+ for 1s - SFM, Dark Confidant, Bitterblossom, Lingering Souls, Elspeth and powering into any of those can negate the Chrome Mox investment. Accelerating into Planeswalkers, equipment, and token producers can be great.

For Discard effects I can't see going too much higher in density of them. Conventionally lists have 8 with 4 pointed and 4 Hymns. I run 7 with 3 having Flashback. I could run Hymn to Torach, I concede that I haven't tried it in a post-Dark Ascension list. Coming off of testing with Nic Fit I liked the power of Cabal Therapy in the current meta where Delver of Secrets and Stoneforge Mystic provide free information over blind shots.

Sensei's Divining Top is there to provide some midgame dig or advantage versus control. It being 1cc and non-creature makes it a more reliable form of card quality than say Dark Confidant, that Blade Control has Spell Snare and STP for; Maverick similarly can regularly invest it's Plows into Dark Confidant with my list only having 7 creatures and SDT dodges QPM or BUG/Nic Fit's Deeds. Most of the midrange opponents are running some form of non-creature dig: Sylvan Library, Brainstorm, or Jace, the Mind Sculptor; so I think having Sensei's Divining Top provides a similar way to mitigate late game draws.

I may be running 1 too many land cards in the list. In my testing 22 has felt appropriate, I've gotten stuck occasionally and flooded occasionally, but overall it's felt appropriate getting to 5 mana over the first 4-6 turns; which feels ideal for the list that allows Equipment + Equip; Lingering FB; Vindicate/Lili + anything 2cc; etc.

I guess if the question is the combination of the two- Chrome Mox providing acceleration at the cost of cards, and Sensei's Top providing card quaility at the cost of tempo and mana. They are somewhat antisynergistic, but by the same token they help versus different matches - Chrome Mox helps catches the deck up against fast decks - Zoo, Combo, Burn, etc - versus control they come out where there is no real pressure on board and grinding out is totally viable. I haven't boarded Top out yet, I think the card quality is valuable in any match up, but it shines more in the midrange and control matches, where the game develops more slowly and one can slow-roll and sink mana into it over time - with 9 fetches and 3 Stoneforge Mystic for a dozen shuffle effects.

[paladin3056]

Congratulations to Joe Bernal and Jeff Cosgrove for taking innovative BW and BWG builds into the Top 16 at Memphis today.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&start_date=2011-12-04&end_date=2012-02-26&event_ID=20&city=Memphis

I can hardly believe that a card such as Zealous Persecution has turned out to be playable in Legacy, even in the best possible deck for it and with a lot of X/1's seeing play.

At any rate, much of this Top 16 seems unusual for today's Legacy.

Interesting BW Decklist, I was wondering why no Sorin when he fits right into the deck like a glove with mana accel like Chrome Mox you can play him by turn 3, pressuring opponent with vamp tokens, or pumping them with his emblem. Anyway I like the Zealous Persecution in the MD, pumps our guys and kills opposing X/1 creatures and weaken many others, it maybe quite significant especially against a Gob deck (with no chieftain in play) going for an alpha strike or even agaist elf combo decks. The only problem now is what to remove for it since the deck is already tight as it is.

No Thoughtseize and IoK but only 4 Cabal Theraphy and 4 Hymn to Tourach, going for quantity versus quality? I currently work with 2 Thoughtseize, 4 Inquisition of Kozilek and 3 Cabal Theraphy, works quite well especially for a token build. First turn IoK/TS, next turn Cabal for something in his hand, next turn play Lingering Souls then flashback Cabal to get rid of other possible nuisances. Quite annoying since I can strip my opponents hand by turn 3 or 4, then the token swings FTW.

Another thing I notice is the lack of Vindicates in the MD or in the SB, although it is lackluster sometimes. I was considering to move mine in the SB since drawing into it can be quite annoying when all I can Vindicate is a land.

[fetterfool]

Congratulations to Joe Bernal and Jeff Cosgrove for taking innovative BW and BWG builds into the Top 16 at Memphis today.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&start_date=2011-12-04&end_date=2012-02-26&event_ID=20&city=Memphis

I can hardly believe that a card such as Zealous Persecution has turned out to be playable in Legacy, even in the best possible deck for it and with a lot of X/1's seeing play.

At any rate, much of this Top 16 seems unusual for today's Legacy.

The top 16 decklists aren't representative of larger tournaments. I cannot find an exact attendance number, but seeing as how GP Baltimore was being held the same day as this SCG Open, I think it is safe to say this was one of Starcity's smallest turnouts. Anyway, GO DEADGUY!!

[lyracian]

The top 16 decklists aren't representative of larger tournaments. I cannot find an exact attendance number, but seeing as how GP Baltimore was being held the same day as this SCG Open, I think it is safe to say this was one of Starcity's smallest turnouts. Anyway, GO DEADGUY!!
According to the entry here there were 94 players.
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7757

Now they may have lost players to the GP but that still seems a significant turnout. There were 153 for Charlotte and 234 for DC.

[from Cairo]

Event size/field aside, I think the most interesting piece this deck brings to the table is Zealous Persecution. It's an interesting way to get more value out of the token producers and works on a tighter curve than Elspeth or Sorin. The deck also dropped Vindicate, which I guess may be in part due to the addition of Persecution, giving one a different way to get value against creatures or pump tokens to knock out a Planeswalker. While it doesn't give the utility of potentially attacking mana, I suppose the lower curve allows one to get more value out of Wasteland since it becomes much less needed as a mana source. The 8 Flashback spells seem like a good way to pad the 3 Liliana, allowing the deck to hold back a Plow or Persecution in hand while ticking up and pitching off 'half' spells.

To me it seems like a well thought out and constructed list, a bit different from the lists most of the Source had been brewing, but worth exploring.

[Rizso]

Updated my version to try out 4 Lingering souls, 4 Bitterblossom, only jitte and batterskull as maindecked equipments, 2 sorins 1 elspeth main & 1 in elspeth in the board. As well rearrange the discard suit a bit.

4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Liliana
4 Swords to plowshares

4 Bitterblossom
4 Lingering Souls
2 Soring Lord of Innistrad
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Board
1 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Perish
2 Path to Exile
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Mortarpod
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Body and Mind

[esqulax]

I like having extra spot removal in the SB, but lately I have started getting a little annoyed with Path and how bad it is at handling early creatures. I would like my removal to still cost 1 though, so the options are kinda limited.

Do you guys think that Ghastly Demise could work in this deck or is it just too unreliable having cards in the graveyard?

Also Tragic Slip crossed my mind for a brief instant seeing how it is both able to take care of early creatures and later ones for only one mana. Still it is probably way too clunky having to activate morbid.

[slikwilly]

I like having extra spot removal in the SB, but lately I have started getting a little annoyed with Path and how bad it is at handling early creatures. I would like my removal to still cost 1 though, so the options are kinda limited.

I have had some luck with Darkblast. Kills unflipped Delvers, Lavamancers, Bob. And if played during upkeep can take down a two toughness creature. If Lingering Souls increases in popularity, the ability to recur Darkblast becomes even better I think too.

That said, I'm usually satisfied w/ 4 Plowshares and 2 Vindicates.

[paladin3056]

STP and Vindicates are the norm, other than those two cards I placed into the MD a couple of Zealous Persecution, wipes out several of mavericks creatures like, Mom, hierarch and Thalia, kills goblins with 1 toughness, as well as Vendillion Clique in UW Stoneblade and Spirit Tokens in Esper. It can also allow us to save our STP's for larger creatures like Goyf's and KotR. And synergizes really well with Diabolic Edict and Liliana's edict ability (avoids allowing your opponent to sac a lesser creature).

The +1/+1 is just gravy and can be useful for an all out alpha strike as well as clears the field of X/1 blockers.

[Rizso]

I have had some luck with Darkblast. Kills unflipped Delvers, Lavamancers, Bob. And if played during upkeep can take down a two toughness creature. If Lingering Souls increases in popularity, the ability to recur Darkblast becomes even better I think too.

That said, I'm usually satisfied w/ 4 Plowshares and 2 Vindicates.


Thought Dark Blast is quite bad against Lingering souls. It requires you to use dark blast 4 times to get rid of that 1 linger souls...

Replaced all my vindicates in the deck. Might put some in the board but in the main deck I much rather have some Liliana's.

[Baldo]

Hi to all,

Need some deck improvement, here's my deck list;


5 Swamp
4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland
2 Plains
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Mother of Runes
4 Lingering Souls

4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshare
4 Vindicate

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

i used this deck but in a different build, small legacy event 2 win & 2 lost...

Win to Zenith Control and B/U Stoneblade

Lost to Hightide and R/U Delver

i need a effective sideboard?

any suggestions, Thanks!

[Oiolosse]

Your average CMC is quite high. Maybe drop a Nighthawk and a Vindicate or two and add Cabal Therapy?

[Jacemindbreak]

I have had some luck with Darkblast. Kills unflipped Delvers, Lavamancers, Bob. And if played during upkeep can take down a two toughness creature. If Lingering Souls increases in popularity, the ability to recur Darkblast becomes even better I think too.

That said, I'm usually satisfied w/ 4 Plowshares and 2 Vindicates.

Why not try Disfigure? -2/-2 is pretty good and takes out a lot of early threats.

[slaughtercult]

There is a SCG IQ this weekend near me with a legacy event on sunday. I was looking to run this list this...


4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Lingering Souls
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Liliana of the Veil

1 Darkblast
3 Zealous Persecution
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Marsh Flats
4 Plains
4 Scrubland
5 Swamp
4 Wasteland


my sideboard looks as such:

2 Aven Mindcensor
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Perish
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Serenity
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Warmth


I'm expecting a lot of maverick and stoneblade decks. Do you guys think this build would be good for such a meta?

[igri_is_a_bk]

It looks to me like Thalia is going to hurt you a lot more than help you. If you're expecting Maverick, then Thalia is definitely going to work for them more than you. It's only saving grace would be killing other Thalias from your opponent. I'd play Bitterblossom in her spot.

Edit - I'd also switch the Elspeth for a second Sorin and the Darkblast for a second Top.

[RainbowPenguin]

@Slaughtercult:

I'd agree with igri that this just isn't the deck for Thalia. I'd probably switch her out for some mother of runes (mothers of runes?) or Bitterblossoms.

Your deck seems kinda slow and top heavy, what with the planeswalkers, lingering souls and equipment, and no moxen. That's not necessarily a problem, if you don't expect a lot of fast combo. However, I would up the number of mana sources a bit. I played a somewhat similar list at the unofficial danish legacy masters this last saturday (89 players; I went 5-2, for 11th place. Report coming up sometime), playing 21 lands and 3 chrome moxen, and that was fine. If you don't like moxen, I'd go up to 23, maybe even 24 lands. Also, your mana would probably be better with + 4 fetches, - 1 swamp, -3 plains. This makes it much easier to cast early hymn.
If you think you will see lots of stoneforge mystics, Cabal Therapy is improved significantly, since you often get a free hit that way. You could cut some or all of the Inquisitions for therapy. It depends, though. If you are new to legacy, inquisition is easier to play than therapy.
I played 2 Vindicate main, and 2 SB, and I liked them a lot. Having answers to any kind of permanent is awesome in a format like legacy. At least cut the oblivion ring for a vindicate, it is just plain better a lot of the time. Yes, there is Emrakul, but that isn't going to matter very often.
I'm not sure why people want warmth over circle of protection: red. Yes, cop:r requires mana, and can be shut down by pithing needle or phyrexian revoker, but warmth is shut down by sulfuric vortex, which is played a lot more, imo, and the burn player can still possibly get there with creatures, 4-damage spells and random stuff.

Whatever you end up with, good luck!

[klaus]

Hey guys,
I've posted a deck in the N&D forum that I'd love to get some feedback on:
CLICKY (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23334-BW-Good-Stuff)
I understand that it's not very Deadguyish, but this archetype seems to have considerably developed in the direction of my take on BW.

Any crits are greatly appreciated (it'd probably make sense to post directly into my thread as to not derail into an off-topic discussion here).
Cheers!
klau[S]

[slaughtercult]

after some testing last night, i revised my list and am happy with it.

4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic

1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad

1 Batterskull
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Lingering Souls
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Zealous Persecution

1 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
4 Plains
4 Scrubland
5 Swamp
4 Wasteland

i wanna add red to the board for things like pyroblast, would the splash be worth it? Playing one less plains and one less swamp and adding a badlands and a plateau. On paper it looks good but makes me more susceptible to wasteland.

[Rizso]

I wouldnt add red to the deck tbh. TBh i think you are playing to many basic plains in your deck :P A double plain draw would be almost a force mull if there is no other lands in that hand.

If Dread of Night and night of souls betrayal starts to catch on in more decks the vindicates is gonna get into my board again. Thought 3 mana is alot but can catch everything. Zealous Persecution also means you dont have to sword the little guys from example Maverick but rather persecute the small guys away.

[rifobob]

Hey guys this is my current list:

4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
1 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Fetid Heath
4 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
2 Swamp
3 Chrome Mox

4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Mirran Crusader
3 Tidehollow Sculler

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Bitterblossom

2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast an Famine
1 Umezawa's Jitte


I'm going to take part in a local event with a basically maverick-meta. any suggestions about improvement?
I thought about testing lingering-souls and zealous persecution, would you reccomend replacing the mirran crusader / tidehollow sculler with lingering souls particularly in a g/w-matchup? I couldn't test it so far.

[Fade]

Hey guys this is my current list:

4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
1 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Fetid Heath
4 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
2 Swamp
3 Chrome Mox

4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Mirran Crusader
3 Tidehollow Sculler

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Bitterblossom

2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast an Famine
1 Umezawa's Jitte


I'm going to take part in a local event with a basically maverick-meta. any suggestions about improvement?
I thought about testing lingering-souls and zealous persecution, would you reccomend replacing the mirran crusader / tidehollow sculler with lingering souls particularly in a g/w-matchup? I couldn't test it so far.

Why would you cut Mirran Crusader when he has protection from half of the Maverick list? Zealous Persection is looking really good right now and Tidehollow Sculler isn't standing out in this list when you already have 8 dedicated discard spells.

[RainbowPenguin]

Hey guys this is my current list:

4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
1 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Fetid Heath
4 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
2 Swamp
3 Chrome Mox

4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Mirran Crusader
3 Tidehollow Sculler

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Bitterblossom

2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast an Famine
1 Umezawa's Jitte


I'm going to take part in a local event with a basically maverick-meta. any suggestions about improvement?
I thought about testing lingering-souls and zealous persecution, would you reccomend replacing the mirran crusader / tidehollow sculler with lingering souls particularly in a g/w-matchup? I couldn't test it so far.

I would reconsider those four bitterblossoms. With fetches, Bob and two thoughtseize, the bitterblossoms may be a bit too much life loss. especially four of them. Personally, I would play the fourth lingering souls before the first bitterblossom.
You probably also want a second jitte before the first batterskull, since matches between decks with lots of creatures and stoneforge mystic often degenerate into fighting over Jitte.
Sideboard, Perish/Nature's Ruin are obviously some good.
Finally, when you do get to play, try to keep an eye on how the mana base works for you. You might want a couple extra lands.

[Rizso]

Perish is better then Nature's Ruin thought. Perish beats thrun while nature's Ruin doesnt :P

[barrozo]

Hi there!
I started to follow the forum a few weeks ago, before Brazilian Legacy Season start, and now I feel I can share some useful information, begining with a report from yesterday's Legacy Qualifier.

After a disappointing 3-4 at past LQ with Maverick, I looked after another deck which could beat both Maverick and UW Blade (currently the most played decks here). Then I saw these new BW lists with hand-disruption + strong board presence (in form of Blossoms/Lingering Souls + equipment) and I decided to give it a shot.

With only 1 week for testing, I aimed to beat those decks, and after some successful results and tweaks, I registered this on Sunday (if you want to skip the report, at the end I made some comments):

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Squadron Hawk
3 Dark Confidant

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Bitterblossom
3 Lingering Souls
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vindicate
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Mox Chrome

3 Liliana of the Veil

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Fetid Heath
3 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Wasteland

SB:

2 Perish
3 Zealous Persecution
2 Disenchant
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Leyline of the Void
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Diabolic Edict

(I'm sorry, but I won't describe my SBing. Due to lack of testing, I tried lots of configs, and some of them surely were wrong)

----

Small tournament, 46 players, 6 rounds. The two finalists qualifies to Legacy Nationals.

R1 - Burn (2x1) 1-0-0

G1: Won the roll. I started strong with Land+Mox, STM to SoFI (I put him on combo on how he analyzed on his mull at 5). He goes mountain, bolt on STM, showing he was on Burn. I hit a PoP with a Therapy and I see a weak hand, so I drop my Bob without any concern. He couldn't keep the pressure and Bob+SoFI finished the job.

G2: He leads with T1 burn in face, T2 Pyrostatic Pillar. I cast STM into Jitte, which he burns while burning my face again. I cast Lingering Souls to a dangerous 6 life, to his 12. He drops another Pillar. I manage to get him on 6 life, to see him topdeck Chain Lightning. Fireblast burned me skipping the pillars.

G3: I hit Goblin Guide from Therapy, seeing a one-lander and lots of heavily-costed burn. I dropped a Hawk. He miss the land drop, I drop another Hawk, hit, and Therapy his 2x Rift Bolt I saw before. I think he burned me once, but then I finish stripping his hand with Therapy on his 2x Fireblast + Hymn to Tourach and the hawks do the trick.

R2 - GW Maverick (1x0) 2-0-0

G1: Boy, this was a long game. There was a moment where he had a Thalia+SoFI in it, a Noble and a Ooze (no creatures in graveyards), and I'm with STM, some spirit tokens, and a SoLS in my hand. I messed a whole turn by dropping Mox+Top forgetting (both me and opp) about Thalia's ability. The judges corrected the game state and I lost a turn because of it. I clog the board with hawks and spirits, and hit hard while gaining some life from the SoLS and chump-blocking his beaters. He complains about his sword not being SoLS.

G2: I keep a sketchy hand with 3 STP, 1 Lily and no creatures. I STP his accel, then he Nobles and skips his land drop, I STP it again. He finds the land and goes with Mom (I drew a Zealous the turn before). I dropped Blossom. He dropped Thalia. I wrath him with Zealous, and started the beating. Some turns later, my board was full of flyers and he has only a few beaters. Time was called, and we couldn't kill each other.

R3 - GW Maverick (2x0) 3-0-0

G1: He goes for turn 2 Noble, I drop Blossom, he goes with Reliquary. I make a Lily, we discard, and miss a Therapy, seeing an Elspeth. He drops Elspeth, which makes a soldier, and I chump-block his Knight trying to kill Lily. I Vindicate Elspeth. I keep my Lily alive with my faeries, and make some Hawks to clog the board. After he drawing some blanks, my board is very superior to his, and he concedes.

G2: This wasn't very much of a game, as he mulls to five, and I have multiple removals to his creatures.

R4 - NO RUG (2x0) 4-0-0

G1: This one I can't remember, too. I put him on Canadian, because of his lands. But until turn 3 he hadn't done much. I did some flyers, he counters a STM I guess, he slams a huge Goyf. I went to the clog+chump plan and did some spirits. He attacks, and he NO for the big hydra. Fortunately I had a Lily which saved the day.

G2: This one was not close too, as I Perished 2 Goyfs and he couldn't keep up with my pressure.

R5 - GW Maverick (2x1) 5-0-0

I was looking for IDing the next two rounds, but this opp had to win only one match to qualify to Wizards WCQ. Damn shitty ranking.

G1: I keep a sketchy hand. He accels his first turn. I drop a Marsh Flats and didn't crack it. When he makes "land go", I realize my mistake. I attempt to crack the fetch, and he lands Aven Mindcensor. I didn't find the land, and missed a Therapy to see 2x Ooze in his hand. He drops one of them, I miss a land drop. He drops the other one while beating me hard. I find a filter land, but it's too late to recover.

G2: Pretty much the same as R3,G1: Lily+clogged board seals the game. I go ult with Lily, separating Elspeth (with 12 counters, but no emblem)+Reliquary in one pile, and 4 lands in another one. He choses to keep his business, and I perish his Knight to win.

G3: He goes for T1 Mom, T2 Thalia. If I recall correctly T3 he missed a land drop, for me wrathing his board with Zealous. He drops Sylvan Library and I start to make some spirits. He goes for Witness + fetch
to refresh his library top, and another Mom. I have another Zealous, and swing for a good amount of
damage. He drops Reliquary + Maze of Ith to slow me down, but I drop a pair of Hawks to go for lethal
next turn. He couldn't find the removal for the flyers and I won in the last of 5 turns.

R6 - Goblins (ID) 5-0-1, 1st in Swiss.

I'm not sure about Goblins matchup, but I guess it's unfavorable, as neither hand-disrupt nor clogged board works against them.

Quarterfinals - Yet another GW Maverick (2x1) 6-0-1

G1: I go for T1 STM for Jitte, and he accels. I drop Hawk, and he drops his Jitte. I legend Jitte, only to see him dropping his second one and a Mom. I took a hit with Jitte, it kills some dudes of mine, but using Top I find a Vindicate for it. He drops Scryb Ranger, another Mom, and even with a SoFI token I couldn't profitably attack (I punted this game by forgetting about this, and attacking through his protected Scryb). He drops two giant Knights, and they started the beating through my tokens with Mom's help.

G2: I resolved an early Blossom, and it generates 2 faeries until he breaks it with Qasali. I dropped the second one I topdecked. He drops STM for Batterskull, which I didn't had any answer. He beats once with the germ, but he taps for a Knight and I topdeck Disenchant. Lily joins the party. He tries to kill Lily, but I manage to mantain her on board for disrupting his hand. After finding a Perish with the Top, I let him finish Lily, I perish his board and we're up to G3.

G3: I started with T1 Hawk (Mox), and he didn't have a T1 play. I make a fresh-drawn Blossom and started the beating. He lands T2 Sylvan Library, which I Vindicate only to see him casting another one. He lands Qasali, and curiously breaks the mox (instead of Blossom), leaving me with no white source and STP+Zealous in hand. He draws an extra-card with Sylvan Library, finding STM and grabbing Jitte, which for I had no answer. He connects Jitte once with a Reliquary, but after him going nuts with Sylvan Library+Surgical Extraction in my Wastelands, he was very low on life. I attacked for lethal, he tried to gain life with Jitte, but I had the Zealous Persecution to seal the game.

Semi-Finals - The same NO RUG (0x2) 6-1-1

This one was terrible.

G1: On the draw, I keep a bad one-lander with IoK + 2 Therapy. He casts a Noble, FoWs my IoK, and follows with Sylvan Library. I miss Therapy (named NO, should've named Goyf), and he lands Goyf, which beats me to death as I never drew another land.

G2: I keep a hand w/o disrupt, and he smashes me with CA provided by Sylvan. He also Dazes one SoLS, kepting me from equipping and gaining some life which would give me an extra turn against big hydra.

----

Despite the bitter taste of not qualifying, I was pretty happy with the deck's performance. Here are
some considerations I'd like to share:

- Squadron Hawk were amazing all day. They aren't as expensive as Lingering Souls, nor slow as Blossoms. I loved the 4 Hawk-3 Blossom-3 Souls config, and I never felt I lacked creatures. Also, I was skeptical in Liliana at first, but she was nuts every time I had them. I can't consider running less than 3.

- Jitte was great all the time. I'll try to fit another one, at least in SB. I wasn't impressed with the swords, though.

- This list simply wrecks Maverick. Yes it's true, despite some of my opps disagreeing with me. I wouldn't mind facing them every time. On the other hand, the deck folds to a resolved Jitte, and if 2 of my opps had SoLS instead of SoFI, I'd be in great trouble. I guess the deck needs more than Disenchant/Vindicate to deal with those equips. I will test Manriki-Gusari, not sure if it's good or just too cute.

- The SB needs tweaking, but as I hadn't tested that much against other archetypes, I don't know what I can shave/put. Will test more against other archetypes to see if there's any other problem matchups.

I'll be glad to hear any comments/suggestions/criticisms.

[igri_is_a_bk]

- Squadron Hawk were amazing all day. They aren't as expensive as Lingering Souls, nor slow as Blossoms. I loved the 4 Hawk-3 Blossom-3 Souls config, and I never felt I lacked creatures. Also, I was skeptical in Liliana at first, but she was nuts every time I had them. I can't consider running less than 3.

This isn't really true. If you're considering what you pay per 1/1 spirit, even on the first cast, it's less than the 2 mana Hawk costs. Plus, one Souls is equal to four Hawks. I'd rather pay five over two turns than eight over three. You should play four Souls before any Hawk.



- Jitte was great all the time. I'll try to fit another one, at least in SB. I wasn't impressed with the swords, though.


Definitely agree with this. I'm always happier to have Jitte than Sword of XY. And a single Jitte doesn't cut it anymore. There are way too many SFM in the format and the first one gets legend ruled quite often in my experience.

[Rizso]

Do like your list, thought not a fan of the Squadron Hawk, sword of Light and Shadow nor the tops or just having 3 bobs or lack of hymn / Batterskull.

Think Zealous Persecution should probly be maindecked atm.

[barrozo]

I agree Sq Hawk aren’t a must-have in any list, but I’ll continue with them while Maverick is the most played deck. If I were to cut them, probably I’ll go with Bob, Lingering Souls, Blossom and Vindicate/IoK in their slots.

As for Hymn to Tourach, I’d rather have them in SB against combo. I don’t feel the need to strip opp’s whole hand in every matchup, when taking just the right cards will already disrupt their plan. That’s where Therapy shines.

Also, I didn’t like Batterskull in my tests. It was more clunky than good. The deck already provides lifegain in form of Jitte and “infinite” body in form of token generators. And a 4/4 ground beater is not that exciting in a world full of equipped germs, goyfs and over-sized knights.

I’m considering to maindeck Zealous Persecution, but I don’t know what to cut. Maybe Vindicate?

[Rizso]

Myself i moved my vindicate to the board. Havent been living til you do some major Zealous Persecution blowouts :D

Lingering Souls, Bitterblossom, Elspeth, liliana and sorin has been some of the strongest cards for me.

[ArCoNisS]

Hi !

This the list i play for the moment with good results (5/47 last week) :

5 Swamp
4 Plains
4 Marsh flats
2 Wasteland
3 Scrubland
1 Arid mesa
3 Chrome mox
2 Umezawa jitte
1 Batterskull
4 Stoneforge mystic
4 Dark confidant
4 Bitterblossom
4 Inquisition of kozilek
4 Cabal therapy
4 Lingering souls
4 Vindicate
3 Zealous persecution
4 Sword to plowshare

SB :
3 Timely reinforcements
3 Perish
1 Manriki gusari
3 duress
1 Tormod's crypt
1 relic of progenitus
3 surgical extraction

Explanations :

Only 2 wasteland -> Mana denial is not the main objective and i prefer a solid mana base
Batterskull -> I think to remove it but it's a nut's vs Dredge
2 Umezawa jitte -> We want life all the time and it's a good card vs many Tiers 1
4 Vindicate -> This card is very important in many matchup, we want it all the time
Cabal + Inquisition -> Cards are synergistic. With it we know the hand of opponent and cabal is very good with bitterblossom
Zealous persecution -> A nut's vs maverik and RUG Delver, and sometimes an alpha strike with tokens


Sideboard :
3 Timely reinforcements -> Vs delver.deck ( a bad matchup for the deck), burn
3 Perish -> Vs Bant, maverik ...
1 Manriki gusari -> Vs stoneBlade
3 duress -> Vs combo
1 Tormod's crypt -> Vs combo, dredge reanimator ...
1 relic of progenitus -> Vs combo, dredge reanimator ...
3 surgical extraction -> Vs combo, dredge reanimator ...

I m thinking to test Liliana but i m not convinced for the moment :tongue:

[wizard_of_gore]

HI DEADGUYS!!!!

I'm playing deadguy ale / bw stoneblade for a long time, and this is the list i'm currently run:

4x mother of runes
4x dark confidant
4x stoneforge mystic
2x mirran crusader

4x hymn to tourach
2x inquisition of kozilek
2x thoughtseize
4x swords to plowshares
4x vindicate
3x bitterblossom
2x sensei's divingin top
1x batterskell
1x umezawa's jitte
1x sword of fire and ice

4x marsh flats
4x polluted delta
4x scrubland
3x swamp
1x plains
1x karakas
4x wasteland
1x urborg, tomb of yawgmoth

SB:

2x perish
1x diabolic edict
1x disenchant
2x enlightened tutor
1x pithing needle
1x cop: red
2x duress
2x surgical extraction
1x extirpate
1x grafdigger's cage
1x ethersworn canonist


I know many people recently build this deck around lingering souls, liliana of the veil and cabal therapy, but simply, i don't like cabal therapy being conditional. It's my personal playstile - i like thoughtseize and IOK better. Lingering souls is realy Ok card, but mirran crusader with moms in play and loads of equipment simply wins you game. As we all know, deck has massive card advantage and card quality (hymn, bob, blossom, sfm, SDT, SOFI), and almost everything you play is strong play, and blue opponent must answer EVERY card you play or he's in trouble. Mother of runes shuts down their removal, or they must spend two cards to kill your creature, they must answer on your bob, they must answer to stoneforge mystic or she will cheat batterskull in play, and for the end bitterblossom kills them. I really don't want to explaining vindicate, wasteland, hymns and other discard against that matchup. Also, deck is nightmare to maverick players, especialy against postboard (perish, disenchant), and even preboard resolved mother of runes or mirran crusader can win you game alongside with vindicates against equipments. I DON'T want to say that maverick is easy matchup - it isn't, but we have mainboard answers on their threats. The real PROBLEM Is Thalia. The worst matchups are against hyper fast combo and aggro decks, but hyper aggro is very underplayed recently. Sword of fire and ice and few slots in sideboard are meta choice, so feel free to discuss my deck ;)

I would appreciate any advise and comment

[klaus]

HI DEADGUYS!!!!

I'm playing deadguy ale / bw stoneblade for a long time, and this is the list i'm currently run:

4x mother of runes
4x dark confidant
4x stoneforge mystic
2x mirran crusader

4x hymn to tourach
2x inquisition of kozilek
2x thoughtseize
4x swords to plowshares
4x vindicate
3x bitterblossom
2x sensei's divingin top
1x batterskell
1x umezawa's jitte
1x sword of fire and ice

4x marsh flats
4x polluted delta
4x scrubland
3x swamp
1x plains
1x karakas
4x wasteland
1x urborg, tomb of yawgmoth

SB:

2x perish
1x diabolic edict
1x disenchant
2x enlightened tutor
1x pithing needle
1x cop: red
2x duress
2x surgical extraction
1x extirpate
1x grafdigger's cage
1x ethersworn canonist


I don't think you have enough creature hate. 4 Vindicate (I love Vindicate) is 1 too many. 3 is the right number imo - #4 should be replaced by something like Ghastly Demise.
SB Duresses are far better off as Canonists #2/3, since your MD is already rather well equipped against Control - those slots will be used as Combo hate.
Also what's your plan against swarm Aggro - I think the SB should adress that issue. I'd sneak in 1-2 Engineered Plague - also fitting your toolbox approach.

[barrozo]

Only 2 wasteland -> Mana denial is not the main objective and i prefer a solid mana base
While it's true that we shouldn’t focus mana-denial as a strategy, Wasteland used wisely can gain a valuable tempo. With your list not having double-colored mana requirements besides Zealous, your mana base should be quite steady. I don’t see a reason to not run 4 Wasteland.


…
I like Mirran Crusader, but only two are enough? And have you considered Elspeth? Jumping a Crusader must be the nuts. Also, how is your mana-base working for you, since you have to cast WW and BB? I’d consider a Fetid Heath.

[wizard_of_gore]

Mana base is really stable, even with double WW. Double white is not realy we want to force - it's only for crusader, and i rarely fetch for scrubland in early game. I considered elspeth for sure, but i don't know what to take out?

@klaus

As i mentioned, hyper aggro deck is problem for that deck, but against midrange creature decks i never had problems with dealing with them. Duress in sb is also for combo matchup alongside with canonist and two enlightened tutors to fetch them. I tested against TES, ANT and similar storm decks, and postboard i really don't have problems against combo in general with basic discard statement i already have in mainboard (+ sb). Of corse, it's not so favorable, but i would say it's 50:50, maybe even more for us, if we are speaking about slower combo deck.

[barrozo]

Today I practiced a little more with the deck (only change was -1 SoLS, +1 Jitte), and I'm not liking the moxen. Most of the time it would be sitting in my hand cause every spell in hand were more important than the accel. Does anyone tried both with or w/o moxen? If so, how did it went? I'll test a little bit tomorrow (luv u, holiday!) w/o them, +1 land, +1 dkblast and +1 IoK and see how it goes.

Re: Engineered Plague: if I were running the E-Tutor package, I'd include a miser, since here I can expect lots of Maverick, Goblins, Elves, and in a lesser extent. Merfolks.

[abetman]

I've been playing b/w for a while and just wanted some feedback on the list I'm planning to run.

Lands(20)
4 Scrubland
3 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Godless Shrine
1 Fetid Heath
1 Bojuka Bog

Creatures(15)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Mirran Crusader

Tool Box(8)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Bitterblossom

Spells(17)
4 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Path to Exile
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Lingering Souls


I currently don't have mirran crusaders yet and am thinking of using nighthawks at the moment. I would also be taking out 1 bitterblossom maybe for an elspeth. Just wanted to know your thoughts... Thanks!

[ForlornEgoist]

@ the Inquisitions: Unless you're faced with a great deal of combo in your meta I'd honestly rather see you run Hymns, tbh, as nixing 2 cards will, in the long run, be much more proactive in removing potential threats.

@ 1 SDT: I'd suggest bumping them up to 3, at least, so as to maximize your Bobs. Albeit the equipment helps to recover life, it makes little sense in not minimizing the amount of life lost, particularly since your build is running Bitterblossom.

I, personally, prefer Phyrexian Crusader over Mirran. The reason being that, although the Infect is rather annoying, the static color protection is much more relevant as Canadian Thresh/UR Delver and Maverick/Bant/UW Stoneblade are the DTB, so pro-White has much more utility. Heck, I myself am actually running x4 Nighthawk in the spot because he can trade with any creature and recovers life.

Not sure how I feel about the PtE. Deathmark or Go for the Throat are my preferred substitutes.

Also, considering the prevalence of Stoneforge decks I'd suggest having access to a Manriki-Gusari in either the MD or SB.

Otherwise your list is rather standard. Hope this helped.

Forlorn Egoist

[KobeBryan]

@ the Inquisitions: Unless you're faced with a great deal of combo in your meta I'd honestly rather see you run Hymns, tbh, as nixing 2 cards will, in the long run, be much more proactive in removing potential threats.

@ 1 SDT: I'd suggest bumping them up to 3, at least, so as to maximize your Bobs. Albeit the equipment helps to recover life, it makes little sense in not minimizing the amount of life lost, particularly since your build is running Bitterblossom.

I, personally, prefer Phyrexian Crusader over Mirran. The reason being that, although the Infect is rather annoying, the static color protection is much more relevant as Canadian Thresh/UR Delver and Maverick/Bant/UW Stoneblade are the DTB, so pro-White has much more utility. Heck, I myself am actually running x4 Nighthawk in the spot because he can trade with any creature and recovers life.

Not sure how I feel about the PtE. Deathmark or Go for the Throat are my preferred substitutes.

Also, considering the prevalence of Stoneforge decks I'd suggest having access to a Manriki-Gusari in either the MD or SB.

Otherwise your list is rather standard. Hope this helped.

Forlorn Egoist

With black, you dont' really need PTE or STP. you got the 2 drop removals without significant drawbacks. On another note, i'd run Smother over GFTT.

[abetman]

With black, you dont' really need PTE or STP. you got the 2 drop removals without significant drawbacks. On another note, i'd run Smother over GFTT.

@forlorn and avatar:
Thanks for the feedback I really appreciate it! :smile:
I was supposed to post my reply earlier regarding why I chose to run the cards on the list, but my phone's browser refreshed that I needed to start over.

My original post would have more detailed explanations on my choices but I am currently too lazy and pissed off that it got deleted accidentally.

Anyway I chose mirran saders with the consideration that 1. I was playing moms and would assume they would stick, giving mirran added protection from red and white if needed and 2. They are very good beaters specially if we woul be able to equip them.

On pte's and stp's over gft and smother, I just wanted to have instant speed 1cmc removal. We could beat them back the life they would be gaining from stp and not all decks run basics (dredge, mud and affinity).

[igri_is_a_bk]

Swords to Plowshares should not be cut for Smother, Go for the Throat, whatever. Deadguy is a midrange deck, and a slower one at that. Most games, you'll find yourself assuming the control role. Think about it, if you said to yourself, "I want to play BW Control" it would look very similar to Deadguy, if not the same. The life gain from Swords is not a problem.

[ForlornEgoist]

Indeed, the life gain is highly irrelevant for us. And even if you were looking for a supplemental kill spell, Deathmark would be much more efficient than either Smother or Go for the Throat. When you look at DTB, Maverick, UR Delver/Canadian Thresh, U/W Stoneblade, and Misc. Stoneblade decks are the most prevalent. Of these, Maverick is the most troublesome considering since Thalia's release they'ved upped their creature count and can now be seen running Scavenging Ooze as well. Deathmark kills all relevant creatures in the meta right now. Yeah, its sorcery speed, but considering it only costs 1and you need to consider the possibility of having to play around a Thalia, its well-worth the loss in spell speed, particularly since our deck rarely runs into mana issues.

On a side-note, Manriki-Gusari was an all-star for me last night. I very nearly went 4-0, going 3-1 instead (the loss was against Maverick; We were on game 3 and he drew the land he needed literally one turn before I drew the one I needed). The Manriki literally ended up winning me all of the other MU's. I definitely think its a card not enough decks are considering.

Forlorn Egoist

[abetman]

I haven't tested it yet but, I would be putting a miser gusari on the side board. I'm just waiting for the cards I ordered. Unfortunately, my fetid heath was omitted from the list I sent them.

Since most of you play the token list, what do you guys think of cabal therapy? I am planning to up my discard count or may be just replacing thoughseize to therapy.

I was thinking -2 thoughtseize,-1IoK, +3 therapy.
I used to run hymns, however, I would want to focus on targeted discard, hymn is prone to spell snare which sucks, specially in cases you really need to make your opponent discard.

[barrozo]

Cabal Therapy is awesome in this deck. You definitely should run all 4 copies before the first copy of IoK/Seize.

Re: Hymn vs. IoK: I'm running IoK, because of its mana cost (my list is already filled with 2-drops), of how IoK plays well with Therapy. Also, I'm running Liliana for more discard. Without Liliana, maybe I would try the Hymns instead of IoK, but right now, Therapy-IoK-Lily config has been great for me.

[fetterfool]

I think that cutting Thoughtsieze for IOK is a ridiculous idea. Legacy is a broad format with several spells costings more than 3 mana. Yes, I know, IOK hits every card in RUG Delver. Thoughtsieze hits sneak attack, Jace, batterskull, you know, cards that really suck when resolved against you. If your meta consists of nothing but RUG delver and the lone deadguy player, play IOK. If you're going anywhere else, thoughtseize is where you want to be.

Deathmark over swords to plowshares? what? just run perish in the side. White weenies still got you down at your local? run virtue's ruin.

Hymn just gives you free wins. I cannot remember a game of legacy in which i cast two Hymns before turn 5 and lost. that said, top decking hymn beyond turn 5 is probably a whiff....if you're playing chrome mox, i'd say def play hymns...as a turn one hymn can be a free win (variance included). If no moxes...there may be other routes you want to take this deck.

Some good players suggested zealous persecution, as that -1/-1 effect kills A LOT of creatures in legacy. And hell, Joe Bernal played it, and he's like the Deadguy master

[ForlornEgoist]

By no means did I ever even give a hint of advocating Deathmark> StP. I simply said that Dmark might be a better option for Swords 5 & 6 over PtE. Nor am I denying the obvious power of board sweepers like Perish or Virtue's Ruin. That having been said, not everyone is as fond of board sweepers. Perhaps some players running a high count of white creatures, or maybe they splash a 3rd color, maybe their meta is rampant with Thalia and 4cc can be unreasonable. There are a great amount of unknown variables in the equation of deciding which removal is most optimal. Yes, I neglected board sweepers, but the debate was for targeted removal, and as far as targeted removal goes, Dmark's only major downside, honestly, is that its Sorcery speed which I consider more than a justifiable drawback considering it kills every problem creature for us for a pittance B while at the same time NOT providing the benefit of a land like PtE does.

Forlorn Egoist

[fetterfool]

By no means did I ever even give a hint of advocating Deathmark> StP. I simply said that Dmark might be a better option for Swords 5 & 6 over PtE. Nor am I denying the obvious power of board sweepers like Perish or Virtue's Ruin. That having been said, not everyone is as fond of board sweepers. Perhaps some players running a high count of white creatures, or maybe they splash a 3rd color, maybe their meta is rampant with Thalia and 4cc can be unreasonable. There are a great amount of unknown variables in the equation of deciding which removal is most optimal. Yes, I neglected board sweepers, but the debate was for targeted removal, and as far as targeted removal goes, Dmark's only major downside, honestly, is that its Sorcery speed which I consider more than a justifiable drawback considering it kills every problem creature for us for a pittance B while at the same time NOT providing the benefit of a land like PtE does.

Forlorn Egoist

Well, my gooooood siiiiir. I think we all know the tradeoff in deathmark and path.

Deathmark kills off every problem creature for deadguy? You've never been killed by a flipped delver? Or two glistener elves who wait to be berserked after blockers are declared? Or...or...just stop arguing that deathmark is the way to go. You need the broadest/most efficient answer in this format.

Yes, Maverick is one of this deck's hardest matchups.

Is the fact that Deathmark hits every creature in that deck but doesn't give your opponent an extra land reason really enough to play a terrible card like deathmark? Maverick isn't going to steal the game from you because now its noble hierarchs and already existing lands got a free land for a new friend. It's going to beat you because you sided in deathmark instead of perish.

[ForlornEgoist]

Albeit I shouldn't of used an absolute like "every," as my intention was in the context of the Maverick MU, so I apologize for the vagueness of my statement. However, I hardly think its fair to essentially boil all my arguments down to saying "nope, its not as good as Path, the extra land is moot, etc. etc." If you really want to play the situation game I can easy make-up scenarios where PtE would be a liability far worse than Dmark, so please refrain from playing that game.

Secondly, albeit we're using Maverick as our example considering its current DTB status however please note that the original purpose of my posts as I stated was to discuss removal and possible substitutes for PtE which I myself am not overly fond. I provided Dmark as an alternative and then gave arguments for or against. Not once did I claim that Dmark was the best choice for the deck. Not once did I say a person should use these in their SB instead of board sweepers. The arguments I provided were merely to provide players with an alternative to PtE for their Swords 5+. I noted how it being able to nix green/white meant it could kill every creature in Maverick, meaning that for people with metas heavy with Maverick Dmark might be a good choice.
Do you honestly think I'm so provincial that I can't seem the limitations on its Sorcery speed or the other 3 colors it can't hit? Obviously there are flaws in the card. Obviously it might be suboptimal to other removal like PtE. However, the point was simply to discuss and debate, not to break Deadguy into a few card choices which were absolute.

Again I state that I understand the power of board sweepers. I myself run several Pernicious Deed in my SB specifically for dealing with board positions like that which Maverick can establish. Repeating incessantly, "Don't use X. Use a board sweeper. Don't consider X. Use a board sweeper." Isn't going to service anyone in their deck construction and theorycraft.

If you don't agree with my opinion, fine, thats your right. But please, don't discourage me or any other player from wanting to argue and debate card choices. Provide reasons in support of or against X, but don't just blithely discourage a card or strategy because in your experience its worthless.

Returning back to Magic, out of curiosity how has Sorrin been working for players? I've seen numerous lists sport him but I myself think him to be on par with Elspeth in that their cute to have but ultimately don't add any real amazing utility. Just theorycrafting, so if any players have experience please share.

Forlorn Egoist

[paladin3056]

Albeit I shouldn't of used an absolute like "every," as my intention was in the context of the Maverick MU, so I apologize for the vagueness of my statement. However, I hardly think its fair to essentially boil all my arguments down to saying "nope, its not as good as Path, the extra land is moot, etc. etc." If you really want to play the situation game I can easy make-up scenarios where PtE would be a liability far worse than Dmark, so please refrain from playing that game.

Secondly, albeit we're using Maverick as our example considering its current DTB status however please note that the original purpose of my posts as I stated was to discuss removal and possible substitutes for PtE which I myself am not overly fond. I provided Dmark as an alternative and then gave arguments for or against. Not once did I claim that Dmark was the best choice for the deck. Not once did I say a person should use these in their SB instead of board sweepers. The arguments I provided were merely to provide players with an alternative to PtE for their Swords 5+. I noted how it being able to nix green/white meant it could kill every creature in Maverick, meaning that for people with metas heavy with Maverick Dmark might be a good choice.
Do you honestly think I'm so provincial that I can't seem the limitations on its Sorcery speed or the other 3 colors it can't hit? Obviously there are flaws in the card. Obviously it might be suboptimal to other removal like PtE. However, the point was simply to discuss and debate, not to break Deadguy into a few card choices which were absolute.

Again I state that I understand the power of board sweepers. I myself run several Pernicious Deed in my SB specifically for dealing with board positions like that which Maverick can establish. Repeating incessantly, "Don't use X. Use a board sweeper. Don't consider X. Use a board sweeper." Isn't going to service anyone in their deck construction and theorycraft.

If you don't agree with my opinion, fine, thats your right. But please, don't discourage me or any other player from wanting to argue and debate card choices. Provide reasons in support of or against X, but don't just blithely discourage a card or strategy because in your experience its worthless.

Returning back to Magic, out of curiosity how has Sorrin been working for players? I've seen numerous lists sport him but I myself think him to be on par with Elspeth in that their cute to have but ultimately don't add any real amazing utility. Just theorycrafting, so if any players have experience please share.

Forlorn Egoist

I think they overacted because you where considering Deathmark over other better spot removals as a mode of comparison. Moving on, I think another good spot removal would be Dismember, technically would cost only :1:, but then again with burn running rampant in the meta this shouldn't even be considered.

As for Sorin, I think he is good, at worst he would provide unlimited supply of vampire tokens, and create an emblem to pump out your tokens. This synergizes really well with Lingering Souls which undoubtedly is one of the best cards printed in DKA. His ultimate is a good bonus to get rid of opposing planeswalkers like JTMS or creatures like KotR and goyfs (but it seems maverick doesn't play goyf nowadays) the plus side you get to control them when you destroy them, but this rarely happens since your opponent won't likely let Sorin live through his ultimate or even cast it. This is good as a 2-of in the deck, maybe as a 1 of but haven't tested that yet.

If you are considering planeswalkers, I think :Liliana of the Veil: is the way to go, discard and creature removal in one, works better in a maverick filled meta coupled with your Zealous Persecutions to wipe away those annoying X/1 creatures. And if you get her ultimate you have a pseudo vindicate in play.

[Rizso]

Compared to other planeswalkers sorin and Liliana reaches their ultimates pretty easy but that also cos of lingering souls and Bitterblossom can protect them in additional to their own protection. Have ultimated Liliana a many time but for sorin most of them time an emblem is better unless they have a something really worth destroying.

Only maindecked removal im running are 4 swords to plowshares, 3 Liliana of the Veil and 2 Zealous Persecution. Really shouldnt need more when packing Discard effects as well, also Jitte can easly win creature matchups. Avoiding 2 mana removal like the plague no reason to make Spellsnare any more useful.

Thb deathmark is fine, matchups where you would want more target removal is pretty much the maverick matchup?
Sure if not playing lilianas it might be needed to play more removal. After board i got 4 swords, 2 perish, 2 vindicate and 3 liliana + some discard effects that didnt get boarded out. Geting thoes Vindicates in for the elspeth they are gonna board in. As well boarding in my second Elspeth for the matchup.

[Justin]

The only things that jumps out to me is that Vampire Nighthawk is not very good in this deck. Some people play it in The Gate, because they need the life gain to overcome all their suicide effects. That doesn't seem like a huge problem for you. I would replace it with either:

1) Bitterblossom: To keep with the tokens theme. It's nice to be able to produce a lot of evasive guys that can pick up equipment.

2) Tidehollow Sculler: This helps against combo and control matchups and is effectively a 2-for-one. I would also run a full set of Mother of Runes to protect him.

[ubernostrum]

So, a funny thing...

I've decided I'm going to GP Atlanta, and based on the way things have been trending recently in the US, I suspect the Vials-and-hate-bears style of build may be quite good right around then.

But one thing I'm really heavily considering as I test out different configurations is running Path maindeck instead of StP. Thinking is:


When you go Vials, you basically become much more of a tempo deck. You're eking out wins and the life gain from StP is actually a factor.
Public enemy number one (RUG Delver) is a really sweet deck to have Path against.
Most of the other decks that have must-kill stuff are either also light on basics or are Maverick, which has enough acceleration already from Hierarch and Zenith-into-Arbor that it probably doesn't make too much of a difference.

[lsho]

Hi! Actually my first post as I've just started with Legacy after some years break.
Just wanted to share the list I am currently testing and assembling because I am not sure where I can optimize it:

4 Marsh Flats
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
3 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Karakas
[19 Land]

4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Mirran Crusader
[11 Creatures]

4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lingering Souls
3 Vindicate
2 Bitterblossom
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Chrome Mox
[30 Spells]

So far, I am pretty happy with this build. I've not had problems with Blade based Esper and UW decks and also Maverick was OK. The thing I am not really sure about is the Mirran Crusaders. They are cool because they block Batterskull Germ tokens any day long, they are also super awesome when equipped themselves but double-W is just hard to get sometimes. I am not really sure what could take his place.

[barrozo]

Yesterday I played another Legacy Qualifier (62 players), and it was terrible. Went 1-3 drop, winning the first one against TES, losing against Bant, Junk and Hive Mind. Lost twice to double Goyf and twice to topdecks after discard (IoK'ed X card, opp topdecked X the following turn). Mulled 6 in 8 games, got mana-screwed in two games.... sigh...
There were lots of Deadguy/Esper decks in the champ, which might suggest Stillmoon Cavalier in the SB.

Isho, I'd take a mox and add a land, as sometimes the card disadvantage can be awkward. Also, I'd take a couple of seize/iok and bring 2x Liliana. She is awesome.

[berksowl]

This deck has been doing good things for me. I'd been running The Gate for a bit before mixing in some white. Here's how it looks for now:


4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic

1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Liliana of the Veil

1 Batterskull
4 Bitterblossom
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Chrome Mox
2 Hymn to Tourach
4 Lingering Souls
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Vindicate

1 Bojuka Bog
4 Marsh Flats
3 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
4 Scrubland
4 Swamp
2 Wasteland

Sideboard
1 Serenity
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Extirpate
2 Leyline of the Void
2 Pithing Needle
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Warmth
2 Zealous Persecution

I've also been considering some other cards, but I'm feeling pretty certain they actually wouldn't improve the deck, or that there's really no card I should remove to make room for them:

Oona's Blackguard in the main.
Yixlid Jailer in the sideboard.

And then there's Mother of Runes, which would be handy but, again, I'm not sure it's worth it or, as has been said in this forum, maybe its not enough of a threat for this deck.

Overall, I'm wondering if anyone more experienced than me at playing this deck could comment on my overall balance of discard, removal, and threats. Am I getting it right?

[barrozo]

Your list seems fine, though you should run 4x Wasteland.

I don't like Oona's Blackguard, since it only pumps Blossom tokens and you have lots of discard already. Its application is too narrow and it's too weak on its own.

Jailer shuts your own Lingering Souls/Therapies. Besides, you're already running six GY hate. I don't think you need more (in qty), or more diversity.

[esqulax]

I have been running my own version of vial deadguy and I have a pretty decent win record, but the one thing
that always gets me is show and tell based combo decks. Do you guys have any advice on something I could sideboard that could improve the matchup?

My discard usually isn't enough when they pack Leyline of Sanctity or Misdirection.

[berksowl]

How to deal with Sneak and Show? That seems like the question of the hour.

Mixing in some Innocent Blood or Diabolic Edict with the Swords to Plowshares makes sense, and not just against Sneak and Show.

Karakas in the main makes sense, and it's a good fit with the Jitte's most of us are running in our Deadguy builds. ...Edited. I read the Oracle text of Karakas, and it confirms that my foundational knowledge of the game is patchy at best. :)

Leyline of the Void in the sideboard is good, against Emrakul at least. Pithing Needle is good against Sneak Attack. Extirpate, if you can get them to discard Sneak Attack or Show and Tell. And Oblivion Ring takes out Emrakul.

Also, Disenchant would be good to have for the Sneak Attacks.

But my current preferred sideboard means of dealing with Sneak and Show is Ensnaring Bridge. It's just important that they don't counter it. Hopefully discard can prevent that. Or, how cool would it be to drop it as their Show and Tell resolves, at the same time they put Emrakul or Progenitus into play?

[ubernostrum]

I have been running my own version of vial deadguy and I have a pretty decent win record, but the one thing
that always gets me is show and tell based combo decks. Do you guys have any advice on something I could sideboard that could improve the matchup?

My discard usually isn't enough when they pack Leyline of Sanctity or Misdirection.

Sneak and Show's weaknesses are the shaky mana base and a general inability to deal with artifacts and enchantments. If you're running Vials your plan should be attacking their mana -- especially their two-mana lands -- and using Revoker to shut down Sneak Attack from the main, and O-Ring and/or Metamorph in the board. A miser's Karakas also sometimes gets there.

[berksowl]

I played the following list at a medium-sized (40 or 50 people?) tournament yesterday. Got beat up pretty badly by Vial Goblins, Maverick (twice), and Dredge. Won against what seemed like an underpowered U/W Control deck. Had a bye too, so finished 2-4. Not what I was expecting...

Main
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic

1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Liliana of the Veil

1 Batterskull
4 Bitterblossom
2 Chrome Mox
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Innocent Blood
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Lingering Souls
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Vindicate

1 Bojuka Bog
4 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
4 Scrubland
4 Swamp
2 Wasteland


SB
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Extirpate
2 Leyline of the Void
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Warmth
2 Zealous Persecution

So probably what I should conclude is that my list is fine. It's not revolutionary. It's not wonderfully placed in a meta with pretty scary-fast combo decks (Dredge, Storm, Sneak/Show, Elves). But it's not a bad deck, and my failings with it show that I need to play it more, get better at playing it.

But what I'm tempted to conclude is that it needs more speed and more tricks. So here's what I'm considering...

Main
4 Dark Confidant
3 Flickerwisp
3 Grand Abolisher
4 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 True Believer

1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Liliana of the Veil

4 AEther Vial
1 Batterskull
2 Chrome Mox
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughtseize
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Vindicate

2 Arid Mesa
4 Marsh Flats
6 Plains
4 Scrubland
3 Swamp

SB
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Extirpate
2 Leyline of the Void
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Pithing Needle
1 Serenity
2 Yixlid Jailer
2 Zealous Persecution

Thoughts? I'm not doing anything too out of the ordinary here either, though I haven't seen too many decks run True Believer or Grand Abolisher. I think they could be handy, but I'm really not too sure. I want to try it.

[berksowl]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=46668

...Decent 14th place showing for BW Stoneblade at SCG Columbus. His list is interesting for its 2x Tombstalkers and its maindeck 3x Zealous Persecution. Just three Stoneforge Mystic, and the only equipment in the maindeck was 2x Jitte. 3x Thalia.

[slikwilly]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=46668

...Decent 14th place showing for BW Stoneblade at SCG Columbus. His list is interesting for its 2x Tombstalkers and its maindeck 3x Zealous Persecution. Just three Stoneforge Mystic, and the only equipment in the maindeck was 2x Jitte. 3x Thalia.

That is an interesting list to make it that far. Bob + Tombstalker seems bad. Thalia + Lingering Souls seems bad. Three Persecution seems like too many w/o Bitterblossom to me. I may have to try this build out though, if only to satisfy my own curiosity.

[Baldo]

Hi,

Play in a small tourney 16 players, made to top 4 and finish 2nd in playoffs.. win 2 booster pack, got Cavern of Souls yeah! : )

here is my deck list..


2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
3 Plains
4 Scrubland
5 Swamp
4 Wasteland

4 Dark Confidant
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Lingering Souls

2 Duress
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshare
4 Vindicate

1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sensei's Divining Top

60 Main Deck Cards

2 Perish
2 Extirpate
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

15 Sideboard Cards


Thanks!

[ForlornEgoist]

Decklist

Overall a rather standard list.

To begin, I believe your manabase runs more basics than is necessary as well as it running more lands in general than necessary. Ours is not a greedy manabase like Rock nor are we running a third color that warrants extra land slots as well as the fact we don't have to support KotR. Knowing this, I think you're manabase would be more optimized as:


4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
3 Swamp
1 Plains

The 1 Sensei's Divining Top seems moot without extra cantrip/fixing/tutors. Even if you've lucked out in drawing it previously its too strong a card NOT to run, particularly when we can scarcely justify the life loss, especially considering we're a midrange deck than can lose outright to burn or heavy aggro. Not only this, when run in conjunction with 8 fetches and 4 Stoneforge Mystic it essentially lets you reach any card in your deck you need without having to rely on cantrips or tutor spells. I'd run 3-4 SDT or none at all.

Duress/Inquisition of Kozilek/Thoughtseize I myself consider the value of removing any threat to be well worth 2 life, however, if you're looking for pragmatism then I would suggest simply going with 4 IoK. If combo is more prevalent in your meta you can perhaps justify the x2 MD Duress/TS, however beyond that I would either A) Run 2-3 Hymn instead, B) Not run them period, or C) SB them. Discard is less amazing late game whereas removal has value at nearly every point in the game. Given the RUG/Maverick meta you might just be better running extra removal.

@ Equipment:
Out of curiosity, why don't you MD Bskull? Its good against nearly every creature-based deck, it recovers life (which is absolutely necessary for ours) and it gives us a recurring threat. Given that your deck is the Souls variant I suppose its justified, but even then I would rather see you run Jitte/SoFaI/BSkull over SoLaS.

SB:
Would you care to elaborate on your meta so I can comment?


In regards to the Sneaky Show/S&T threat some people here are facing, has anyone considered Tariff? I know back when SA first started making a comeback after 5+years of inactivity Tariff had much discussion/playtesting. Not instant-speed but honestly S&T is far more prevalent a cheat than SA.

Forlorn Egoist

[berksowl]

In regards to the Sneaky Show/S&T threat some people here are facing, has anyone considered Tariff? I know back when SA first started making a comeback after 5+years of inactivity Tariff had much discussion/playtesting. Not instant-speed but honestly S&T is far more prevalent a cheat than SA.


Tariff seems good. But something like Ensnaring Bridge is a Sneak/Show answer that has the advantage of being an Enlightened Tutor target.

[ForlornEgoist]

True, but I myself have never been fond of the ET variant as I think beyond SFM our deck hardly has need of a ETutor toolbox. Honestly, how many MU is Ensnaring Bridge going to be insanely relevant? Even with ET the problem evolves that we need to gurantee we can grab that Bridge in the first several turns, and even after resolving it we still have to answer Emrakul meaning you still need to have Sac effects.

I'm not saying Tariff is the correct answer because its weaknesses are quite obvious, however barring exception to unique metas I think SA/S&T are sparce enough that they don't warrant us drastically changing our respective builds simply to accommodate an answer to "Beasties." (Prog/Emrakul/Reanimator creatures). Hell, you could even answer the threat partially by running cards which are useful in other MU but still effective against S&T. For example, runs some sac effects main/SB and then run something like Leyline of Sanctity and Extirpate. Leyline prevents Intuition from targetting you, and even if Intuition happens you can Extirpate whichever creature they pick (usually they go 3 Emmy). I'm not saying its foolproof, but my preference is to punt the match against the ocassional combo in exchange for guranteed success against more mainstream decks like Maverick and RUG Tempo.

Forlorn Egoist

[berksowl]

True, but I myself have never been fond of the ET variant as I think beyond SFM our deck hardly has need of a ETutor toolbox. Honestly, how many MU is Ensnaring Bridge going to be insanely relevant? Even with ET the problem evolves that we need to gurantee we can grab that Bridge in the first several turns, and even after resolving it we still have to answer Emrakul meaning you still need to have Sac effects.

I'm not saying Tariff is the correct answer because its weaknesses are quite obvious, however barring exception to unique metas I think SA/S&T are sparce enough that they don't warrant us drastically changing our respective builds simply to accommodate an answer to "Beasties." (Prog/Emrakul/Reanimator creatures). Hell, you could even answer the threat partially by running cards which are useful in other MU but still effective against S&T. For example, runs some sac effects main/SB and then run something like Leyline of Sanctity and Extirpate. Leyline prevents Intuition from targetting you, and even if Intuition happens you can Extirpate whichever creature they pick (usually they go 3 Emmy). I'm not saying its foolproof, but my preference is to punt the match against the ocassional combo in exchange for guranteed success against more mainstream decks like Maverick and RUG Tempo.

Forlorn Egoist

Where do I sign up for guaranteed success against Maverick?

Joking aside, I feel ya. Tutoring for artifact and enchantment answers is not consistent with the fast tempo which explains why Deadguy is so good. People call it BW Tempo afterall.

For Sneak/Show, I would board in some additional answers. I play 2 Innocent Blood in the main, plus 4 Swords to Plowshares. I'd board in 2 Ensnaring Bridge, maybe 1 Enlightened Tutor, and 1 Oblivion Ring.

Maybe I shouldn't. Maybe the sac spells and Extirpate is the best high tempo way to go.

[igri_is_a_bk]

StP is really bad in this matchup. You can side that out without much worry. We could go proactive and have additional Thoughtseize and Duress come in. That might be better than Oblivion Ring or Needle/Revoker since they won't suck against other combo.

Also, 3-4 Cabal Therapy in the main if you play Souls and Bitterblossom. That plus some number of Thoughtseize can give you a chance game one.

[ForlornEgoist]

Where do I sign up for guaranteed success against Maverick?

Lol, yeah, that was somewhat of a typo on my part. ^^' Still, I tend to be favored in this MU post-board as they usually SB in Qasali Pridemage (if he isn't already MD), or maybe a little extra removal such as PtE, and on ocassion even Leyline of Sanctity. I, however, am removing discard in exchange for Go for the Throat, Pernicious Deed, Sword of Light and Shadow, and Powder Keg. Of course there is still room for me to lose, but post-board the MU tends to swing heavily in my favor.

As for S&T the strategy I've suggested has worked fantastically for me. You'd be surprised how many Intuition players don't realize the Oracle is "Target opponent." For me, anyway, running 7 discard + 3 Extirpate/3 Leyline of Sanctity tends to more than swing the MU in my favor. Of course its not bulletproof, but sac effects tend to be far less useful against aggro which is the prevalent archetype hence my reluctance to run it. Granted, I tend to only fight 1-2 S&T at my local meta and 3-5 at the bigger month tourneys so its less a concern for me than the dozens of Mavericks and RUGs I have to fight. :p

Speaking of which, if you haven't already tried it I high suggest running Lightning Greaves MD in your toolbox (I run Jitte/Bskull/Greaves w/SoLaS & Manriki in SB). Greaves its absolutely nuts as it can let you get in fresh beats with new creatures, let you do some fun SFM shenanigans late-game (like continuously dropping a Bskull), or as is the most common scenario, protecting your Mom.

Forlorn Egoist

[nedleeds]

Top 4'ed a GPT then scooped in a friend to the finals.

4 x Mother of Runes
4 x Dark Confidant
4 x Mirran Crusader
3 x Stoneforge Mystic
4 x Tidehollow Sculler
3 x Thalia, Wrecker of Shit
1 x Stillmoon Cavalier
4 x Swords to Plowshares
3 x Inquisition of Kozilek
3 x Cabal Therapy
1 x Jitte
1 x Sword of Fire and Ice
1 x Sword of Light and Shadow
2 x Vindicate

4 x Scrubland
4 x Marsh Flats
2 x Windswept Heath
2 x Bloodstained Mire
1 x Swamp
3 x Plains
1 x Karakas
1 x Volrath's Stronghold
4 x Wasteland

5 rounds. Went 3-1-1. Beat Moat-Less Enchantress in the top 8.

My board was a bit paranoid against SnT and RUG, and concessionary to combo. I was hoping all the discard would be enough, combined with crushing clock like armed crusader.

4 x Fleshbag Marauder (crush show and tell, was randomly helpful vs. enchantress)
4 x Yixlid Jailer (crush dredge)
2 x Perish (thresh, maverick, rando loam decks)
2 x Relic (thresh, dredge, rando loam decks)
1 x Jitte (mostly to blow other jittes, or vs. walmart burn)
2 x Stillmoon Cavalier (Stoneblade, Maverick he is an invulnerable man who doubles as a flying Moat)

People playing hymn right now are just wrong. Sculler is fantastic right now. A spell pierced hymn sets you back and leaves you going into your 3rd turn with no threats. Playing turn 2 hymn with an opening hand that incudes Mother means fetching scrubland, which on the draw is fucking miserable. They bolt your mom and wasteland your scrub and you are done vs. something like internet RUG.

You play line here is way smoother, basic plains into mother, basic swamp into sculler, they've likely blown their removal on mother if not then fantastic! Sculler is safe and can tuck a card and hold weapons. He has won games holding the High Tide the combo player needed to win.

Maverick is a bye with this build, you have a little game versus SnS with 10 targeted discard effects. I've beaten High Tide game with this deck 3 times now as well. 4 Thalia is probably OK, but without broken Brainstorm to fix hands I'm always concerned about legend flood.

Cabal therapy is a finesse card but is super powerful with all the hand knowledge you can get with the other 7 peek effects. It also gets you out from under an oppressive confidant, and has random utility versus Dredge game one. I've also flashed in weapons, then sacced my now Squired SFM for brutal turn 4's where I had previous hand knowledge.

[abetman]

Last June 17, I participated in the GP - legacy side event using my most recent BW build. I've only been able to playtest this a couple of times online. I really like the feel of this build which goes like:


4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
2 Plains
2 Bojuka Bog
2 Swamp
1 Godless Shrine
4 Dark Confidant
4 Mirran Crusader
3 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Body and Mind
3 Chrome Mox
3 Bitterblossom
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Cabal Theraphy
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Lingering Souls
2 Zealous Persecution

Sideboard(15)
3 Extirpate
2 Perish
2 Thoughtseize
2 Path to Exile
2 Vindicate
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Chalice of the Void


I finished 65th (2-3-2) at a 90ish man tournanment. I know I could've done better. It's just that I was prone to misplays and wasn't able to maximize the deck's potential.

I'll do my best to recall as much as I can, so you guys could give me feedback. Here it goes:

Round 1 - Affinity

Game 1: I won the die roll and is on the play. I lay my first land and cast IoK. I wasn't really expecting to run across affinity and thought that this'll be a quick match. My main deck revokers worked wonders and was able to neutralize his cranial platings. - Win.
SB:- discard package + pte,chalice and extirpate
Game 2: Explosive start for him getting most of his 0 casting dudes accompanied by signal pest. - Loss
Game 3: both of us mulled to 5. I was able to outdo his pace by having bitterblossom + lingering souls early, keeping his dudes at bay. Somewhere along the line, I misplayed and should have taken the offensive but chose to play defense when I could have abused an attached jitte. He managed to recover and put ravager counters on an cranial plated ornithopter. I was not able to finish him off during the last 5 turns. - Draw.

Round 2 - GW Maverick

Game 1:I was able to wipe the board with ZP (zealous persecution)and overrun him with tokens. (Win)
SB - minus discard package + removal and extirpate
Game 2: misplayed into trying to STP his terravore, while he has a mother of runes when I had enough mana to cast zealous persecution then STP. Maze of ith is a real pain! (Loss)
Game 3: He was rushing the game as time was running out. I was able to revoker his KotRs and was able to land my mirrans. Close fight. (Win)

Round 3 - RB Reanimator

Game 1: Gin Taxias took the win from me. I was unable to find any kind of removal. (Loss)
SB: - discard + extirpate,cotv,pte
Game 2: mirran crusader + sofi ftw!! I managed to win without using hate.
Game 3: I thought I was going to win. I had a mom, bob and mirran out. He was already down to 8 life when he managed to reanimate Elesh Norn, wiping out my army. I was unable to recover. Sad (Loss)

Round 4 - Counter Balance Thopter Sword Combo

Game 1: Revoker + Bob beats. He had some thopters but it was still manageable. (Win)
SB: - stp,chrome mox + vindicate,extirpate,o.ring
Game 2: My revokers did not stick this time. He managed to set up counterbalance + sensei's top lock. He also managed to get back to basics + propaganda in play. Thopter spammed. (Loss)
We did not play game 3- (draw)

Round 5 - UW planeswalker control

Game 1: turn 1 IoK, getting vedalken shackles (I hate shackles!) Able to make a biiterblossom stick at turn 4 or 5? I know I was able to stall him a bit with wasteland on his manlands - mishra and colonade. he let me cast my mirran saders only to be STP'd. I lost to the attrition war between his elspeth and my bitblos. He also got a chimeric mass jace in play.(Loss)
SB: - pte,chromemox +thoughtseize,extirpate,vindicate
Game 2: turn 1 cabal therapy (was thinking of calling brainstorm but called StP instead) with him revealing shackles, 2x brainstorm, counterspell,spell snare,land,land. I had Bob,2xmirran crusader and lands in hand. My bob got snared, he managed to get shackles out, I didn't cast mirrans due to shackles. He eventually got elspeth and jace.(Loss)

Round 6 - RDW / Burn

Game 1 & 2: I got burned pretty bad. With no means of getting my life total back up, I'm pretty much screwed. I miss batterskull and nighthawk :(. (Loss)

Round 7 - Reanimator

Game 1: He got one of his targets (griselbrand) to the graveyard and passes the turn. I play bojuka bog. He puts another griselbrand to the yard which I was still able to STP. Beat him with mirran crusader and sword.(Win)
Game 2: He mulls to 5 or 6 and was able to get griselbrand to the yard. I in turn answer with bojuka bog on my turn again. Mirran crusaders win. (Win)

Overall, I like how the deck plays, I just need to be more aggressive in my plays. Need more testing and game play to practice.

Constructive criticism is very much welcome. Thanks.

[Amazingxkcd]

Constructive criticism is very much welcome. Thanks.

How was the moms working for you?

[abetman]

The moms were okay.

[Rizso]

Went 6 - 0 today in a PGtrial Ghent, splited the top 8 as im not going to the gp anyway. Didnt want to dreamcrush anyone. Won against sneak and show, maverick, rug-delver, Painter servant, bant and a UW.

List I used where:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Lingering Souls
4 Bitterblossom
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquision of Kozilek
3 Liliana of the veil
2 Sorin Lord of innistrad
1 Elspeth, Knight-errant
4 Swords to plowshares
2 Zealous Persecution

3 Chrome Mox
4 Scrublands
4 Marshflats
2 Polluted Delta
2 Fetid Heath
4 Wasteland
2 Swamp
1 Plains

Board:
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Ethersworn canonist
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Perish

As you can see, not using any Hymn to Tourach atm. I rather push through my walkers with 1 mana discard spells then having taking out 2 cards I dont have any control over. Really like the walkers, the discard package, the token generators and the persecutions. I do see alot of people removing their chrome mox but for me at least im gonna playing them still. They have saved me from blood moon vs sneak and show. Geting out faster walkers. Baiting stifles with the imprint triggers. The moxes gives much needed tempo boost that sometimes are needed and in matchups where they are less useful its always possible to remove 1 of them.

[ForlornEgoist]

Something I've begun to notice is that with the vast quantity of people adjusting their builds to answer Maverick, the deck itself has slowly but surely been pushed from the meta in favor of greater streams of combo and RUG (and come M13, mostly likely the sporadic Merfolk). I've noticed this particularly when I've been entering metas with a build designed to crush Maverick only to find myself against a RUG player where those card slots become dead.

Realizing this, I am curious to see how players here have been answering RUG. Currently my SB is situated as:

1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Manriki-Gusari
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Go for the Throat
3 Extirpate
3 Vindicate
3 Leyline of Sanctity

With 3 Zealous Persecution and Umezawa's Jitte, Lightning Greaves, and Batterskull being the relevant MD cards.

Previously the Vindicate had been Powder Keg, but once I saw less Maverick/Dredge I switched them out. Firstly, I'm considering removing Vindicate entirely from my 75. I'm loathe to do so in those random situations where its relevant, but frankily the most common threats will either be spells or creatures, either of which is answered with regular removal or discard. 3 Mana can be a hefty (and annoying) investment.
Secondly, I'm considering removing my x3 MD Hymn to Tourach in favor of possibly x2-3 Duress or Inquisition of Kozilek. Considering I run so many white sources as well as a green splash sometimes setting myself up for BB can be annoying, particularly when I want to play aggro or not fetch out all basic swamps. Also its important to note that Spell Snare is rather popular atm.
Since Stoneforge has died out I can perhaps remove the Manriki and in place of SoLaS throw in SoFaI, or possibly even SoWaP (considering it gives me the static def vs R/W removal while also netting me life).

Has Liliana been performing on par for the deck? I've always disliked Planeswalkers, however I've begun to note more and more Bx players using her (not to mention I got ROFLstomped today by a Pox player today who dropped her T1 and owned me both games -.-).

Forlorn Egoist

[Rizso]

Liliana is monster, she controls the board and she can discard through leyline of sanctaury. Not been disappointed with her.

[paladin3056]

Went 6 - 0 today in a PGtrial Ghent, splited the top 8 as im not going to the gp anyway. Didnt want to dreamcrush anyone. Won against sneak and show, maverick, rug-delver, Painter servant, bant and a UW.

List I used where:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Lingering Souls
4 Bitterblossom
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquision of Kozilek
3 Liliana of the veil
2 Sorin Lord of innistrad
1 Elspeth, Knight-errant
4 Swords to plowshares
2 Zealous Persecution

3 Chrome Mox
4 Scrublands
4 Marshflats
2 Polluted Delta
2 Fetid Heath
4 Wasteland
2 Swamp
1 Plains

Board:
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Ethersworn canonist
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Perish

As you can see, not using any Hymn to Tourach atm. I rather push through my walkers with 1 mana discard spells then having taking out 2 cards I dont have any control over. Really like the walkers, the discard package, the token generators and the persecutions. I do see alot of people removing their chrome mox but for me at least im gonna playing them still. They have saved me from blood moon vs sneak and show. Geting out faster walkers. Baiting stifles with the imprint triggers. The moxes gives much needed tempo boost that sometimes are needed and in matchups where they are less useful its always possible to remove 1 of them.

Great news, hoping for a detailed report on match ups, especially those against RUG and Sneak and Show. This is almost basically my deck with a few numbers changed around.

Questions:
1. Does the lack of vindicate lessen the decks effectivity?
2. Hows the Planeswalker package? Is the current number enough? Which walker is lackluster?
3. Have you considered using Entreat the Angels plus SDT?

Thanks!

[berksowl]

Great news, hoping for a detailed report on match ups, especially those against RUG and Sneak and Show. This is almost basically my deck with a few numbers changed around.

Questions:
1. Does the lack of vindicate lessen the decks effectivity?
2. Hows the Planeswalker package? Is the current number enough? Which walker is lackluster?
3. Have you considered using Entreat the Angels plus SDT?

Thanks!

I've considered Entreat the Angels. But I was talked out of it by an experienced player whose opinion I respect. As the argument goes, getting a Top online and then casting it at its miracle cost producing two or more 4/4 creatures means its already turn 3 -- that's if you've not cast any other spells. Wouldn't you rather have played a 1cc discard spell, a Bob, and Lingering Souls at that point?

Or you might view it as a late-game winner. But I'd argue that Deadguy doesn't need more late game winners. It's got plenty of late game winners. It's surviving the early game that it needs. So if you're alive long enough to cast Entreat even at its miracle cost you probably don't need it.

[Rizso]

Great news, hoping for a detailed report on match ups, especially those against RUG and Sneak and Show. This is almost basically my deck with a few numbers changed around.

Questions:
1. Does the lack of vindicate lessen the decks effectivity?
2. Hows the Planeswalker package? Is the current number enough? Which walker is lackluster?
3. Have you considered using Entreat the Angels plus SDT?

Thanks!

A:
1. I currently run 0 vindicates in my 75, its not cos of money as i have 4 of them. But at 3 mana i rather play a Liliana or play more then 1 spell. I do however play 1 oblivion ring in the board. For a match like sneak and show I board out the swords to plowshares, persecutions and a stoneforge, bring in more discard and the Surgical Extractions and a oring. This matchup you wont be winning by stp any creatures afterall. But rather take them out from the hand or the enablers or mana screw them with wastelands.

In the rug matchup Vindicate doesnt do anything either. Spellpierce, cheap creatures, mongoose and vindicate is quite expensive in mana cost to kill creatures with. Against Rug i have found wrecking their hand is one of the best way to beat them. They dont have anything to recover lost cards they only have cantrips. Once they are out of resources they will be in topdeckmode. Clearing their hand of threats and responces to your more powerful and bit more expenive planeswalkers or dark confidants. Rug wont be dealing with any planeswalkers without a struggle. Liliana is pretty crushing in the matchup when setup properly. Never be afraid of using terapy flashback on a bob if that means landing a walker :P

2: I run 3 Liliana of the Veil, 2 Sorin lord of innistrad and 1 elspeth main and 1 in the board. For me all the 3 walkers have done serious work. Wouldnt even imagine playing the deck without Liliana, such a backbreaking card when the format has so little played amount of card draw.

3. Have thought about it but without brainstorm / Jace Miracles is gonna be less useful. Also do not like top in the deck, uses way to much mana and requires more fetchland something I tend to avoid. Unneccessary damage taken. Rather have life spent on bob or bitterblossoms.

[Aadz0r]

Hey Guys, I just ran Rizso's list with some minor tweaks to top 8 in a GPT here in the Netherlands. I actually went 5-1 but ID'd game 4 after winning it to give my friend the opportunity to still go in the top 8. (I'm not going to Gent anyway) Report:

Match 1 - Pox
Game 1: Turn 2 Bitterblossom is nuts against Pox. He still got me to 1 by just Edicting my tokens for 5 turns, but in the end I get there.

Game 2: He keeps a hand with 2 wastelands, Mishra's Factory, Crucible but no black sources. He doesn't draw any and I win with Bitterblossom and Lingering Souls.

2-0 (1-0)

Match 2 - Weird Bant list with Knights, Stoneforge, Hierarchs and loads of counters.
Game 1: Longest game I ever played. I wasn't going to lose after stabilizing as I had Sorin and Liliana both on a lot of counters but I couldn't get rid of his Batterskull. I just kept chumping it and when he had about 5 cards left in his library I finally found a Vindicate and was able to make him return it to his hand and discard it with flashback Therapy. At that point he had about 60 life. I took his Knight of the Reliquary with Sorin ultimate who at that time was around 15/15, equipped it with a Jitte which had 9 counters on it and after 3 turns he was dead.

Game 2: We barely got this one started when they called time.

1-0 (2-0)

Match 3 - Esperblade
Game 1: Very long game as well. I stabilize after getting a Bitterblossom online with a Jitte which he couldn't get rid off. I won that one.

Game 2: He gets a Jitte and a bunch of tokens. I get some tokens myself and legend-rule the Jitte. He plays Academy Ruins and I couldn't find any answer for his recurring Jitte.

Game 3: I mull to keep a marginal 6 card hand with discard, Surgical Extraction and some lands. I can't find any business and he gets himself a bunch of tokens + 2 Snapcasters to win.

1-2 (2-1)

Match 4 - Doomsday
Game 1: This match was against a buddy of mine so I know what he was playing and I keep a hand with 2 Confidants + Lingering Souls. He mulls to 6, and I hope I get enough time to draw some business with Confidant. First turn nothing. Second turn I get Cabal Therapy but he silences me in my upkeep and gets the combo going the next turn.

Game 2: I get turn 1 mox into Confidant. Turn 2 Liliana, and I draw into more discard. I win.

Game 3: I keep a hand with 2 Therapies, hit my first on Brainstorm, 2nd hits a Tutor, I play Lingering Souls and Flashback a Therapy to hit 2 Doomsdays. Then I proceed to draw Liliana and a Thoughtseize. Pretty brutal for him.

I decide to ID after the match, see reason above

1-1 (2-1-1)

Match 5 - Dredge
Game 1: He tries to go nuts with LED, Faithless Looting with a dredger, but he dredges very very poorly. I can play Chrome mox into Stoneforge and after a while I get a lot of tokens with Batterskull, while he keeps dredging crap. I get the unlikely win and with 7 hate cards vs dredge: 2x Grafdigger's Cage, 3x Surgical Extraction, 2x Extirpate I guess I can definitely win the next one.

Game 2: He mulls, and so do I. I keep a hand with 1 Extirpate and Confidant and I don't really expect him to have a nuts hand. I was wrong, he starts with Land, LED, Faithless Looting and a Dredger, and finds business. He Therapies me after going nuts with 4 Bridges in his grave after dredging 15 cards, and I scoop in response.

Game 3: He mulls twice and I keep a hand with a Surgical Extraction. I play Thoughtseize turn 1 and see 2 land, 1 Krosan Grip, 1 Bridge and a Dread Return. I draw into another Surgical Extraction and an Extirpate and I easily win.

2-1 (3-1-1)

Match 6 – Goblins
Game 1: He starts with Vial. My turn 1 Therapy doesn’t get anything but sees 2 Ringleaders, a Lackey, Pyrokinesis and Stingscouger. I am able to flashback the Therapy, get the Ringleaders and win this one with Elspeth + Sorin.

Game 2: He mulls to 5 and keeps a marginal hand. I have 2 Chrome Mox and am able to discard his removal and cast Stoneforge Mystic. Next turn I get Batterskull and when he finally finds a Matron to get Tuktuk, he forgets the bounce ability on Batterskull. Next turn I thoughtseize and see that he is holding Shattering Spree. I discard it and he scoops it up.

2-0 (4-1-1)

So I go to top 8, but my friend loses his last match and doesn’t get in. I find out there are 2 RUG decks, 3 Sneaky Show, 1 Merfolk and 1 UW Blade. I have to play RUG.

Top 8 – RUG
Game 1: He finds 2 Goyfs, 4 Delvers and 1 Mongoose in the first 5 turns. I almost stabilize thanks to him not flipping his Delvers for about 7 turns, but in the end I draw 3 lands in a row and he flips Lightning Bolt, to fly his delver over my tokens and wins.

Game 2: He keeps his 6. I turn 1 Therapy naming Brainstorm. He is holding 2 with only 1 land. I waste next turn and he can’t find land the next 3 turns and scoops.

Game 3: I mull to 5, get into land trouble and he beats my face with Delver.

1-2

So, in the end a fine result, but I could have done better. RUG should be a very positive matchup, and I just hate losing to it. I don’t really mind however since I’m not going to Gent anyway and in the end my top 8 opponent got the byes, so good job to him.

[danpo]

Hi all,

I went 10-2-3 with B/W Stoneblade at GP: Atlanta this past weekend, finishing 42/905. List and a lazy rundown of match-ups is here:

http://sexyteamofdudes.blogspot.com/2012/07/sherman-had-right-idea.html

Good luck have fun,
-Dan

[Rizso]

Used same list as before went 3-0-1, Won against RUG-delver, Sneaknshow and burn and drawed vs full english breakfast.

vs delver I continued my plan with clearing his hand and controlling the board with liliana and zealous persecutions. Killed 2 nimbles with 1 Persecution. Won it pretty simple with some tokens from 2x bitterblossoms. Othergame was almost the same cleared his hand of any creatures, he had resolved a bob, who drew me a loads of Lingering souls then resolving a sorin going -2 for an emblem game over.

vs sneak and show
Cleared his hand of a brainstorm on a naked therapy on t1 seeing 2 missdirections 1 fow and some lands and drawing multiple wastelands from my part but a high restrain on him. He never really recovered bob beats with some tokens takes in down. Next game he starts with a leyline of sanc. but no lands but he had a petal. He then on goes for a Show and tell with emrakul wich encounters my o-ring, then i resolve a liliana and liliana pretty much alone kills of his hand. When he goes for intuition i have my surgicial extraction ready for it, 2nd of the game. And he scopes.

Vs Breakfast it was some really strange and long games both games Liliana was the vip clearing the board and ruin his hand. my liliana is on 2 counters and he got a en-kor in play but i use +1 kinda want my liliana to remain active but his last card was a limduls vault and he goes to find the cephalid mills his deck dread return on The Mimeoplasm wich removes a Lord of Extinction and a Triskelion and do loads of damage.

Game 2 once again a strange match but liliana was once again a keyplayer removing his hand and board. I draw very little treats but manage to get a bitterblossom online at 12 hp. Finish of the game with a couple of tokens when he scoops to try to get to play a game 3 but there was less then 1 min left so a draw.

VS burn I Inquisition him taking a lightning bolt seeing him have 1 Mauraders and 1 elemental other then the bolt. Could play a stoneforge on turn but decided to save the mana for a sword for the elemental he instead casts an other mauraders. t3 i cast stoneforge for jitte had drawn the batterskull. He kills the stoneforge and i sword the elemental. Draw and other stoneforge resolve stoneforge jitte he doesnt find anything for the stoneforge so i the next turn puts the skull in the game and equips the jitte and he scoops when he cant find anything the next turn.

game 2 he goes land chain my facego. I inqusion him seening an other chain and a bolt and a flame rift. I take the bold he uses flamerift i therapy him for the chain. Then on my turn 3 i land mox removing my bob from hand nad land a sorin lord of innistrad and makes a lifelinking token. he shots me some times more with an other 3 damage spell i then land a liliana and makes us both discard a card he then responce with sacrificing 2 lands to the fireblast he had in his hand but by doing so he enabled me to waste his only land, barbarian ring. Game over. Managed to get a couple of life from the lifelink tokens and the game ended with me having 2 life lef.

[Rizso]

New week with the same list went 3-1.

Won vs mirror. my wastelands > his lands, My tokens > his tokens. My Dark confidant with sword of fire and ice > him. 2-0

Reanimator. 1-2
First match he goes get a turn 2 Griselbanned. yea need to say more? :D
Game2 keep a 3x lingering souls hand with no hate... and it gets there :D Get sword for his eleshnorn and cabal therapy through to a win. Game 3 is a very long one almost going to time but active griselbanned is quite to much to handle with him on 2 lifes he goes get elesh norn and a angel to kill my liliana. QUite close but not enought.

BUG 2-0
First game was pretty much a discard race in the start then into a 5/6 tarmogoyf vs lingering soul tokes race that i win with a zealous persection execution :D
Game 2 i keep a 5 card hand with 3 lands 1 wasteland stoneforge. He starts with a inqusion. I draw mine think i pick of a tarmogoyf. I waste his land. to keep him of hymn. I draw stoneforge he fows removing jace, i draw stoneforge he snares, i draw bob he snares. Then i resolve a elspeth and she ends it.

Sneaknshow 2-0
I win the roll. Starts out with a 1 mana discard and start pick of his hand. casting cabal therapy for fow removing 2 fow's, flashback for emrakul removing 2 of them and cast 1 cabal therarpy to take his last card wich is griselbanned. Lingering souls token + pump from elspeth then finish of the game. Next game. he starts with a volcanic wich i insantly destroys with a wasteland forcing him to brainstorm in responce. Then i start to pick his hand of with inqusion into a cabal therapy. Resolving a bitterblossom. Cabal therapy for emrakul gets 2 of them with trigger on the stack i surgical extract them. Got oblivion ring ready in my hand incase a show and tell would be happening. Some tokens and bob beats him dead.

Went 3-1 in our weekly legacy. 2 people went 4-0 Olle Råde with Thalia goblins and other was a RUG deck. Goblins might be on its way back, thalia looks strong in the deck.

So far im pretty pleased with the numbers in the deck. Only card im actually thinking of start playing is Disenchant.

[ForlornEgoist]

Well, I wrote out this hella long extensive post however I somehow managed to exit out of the browser when typing thus losing my post. -.-' Well, heres a rough summary of what I said:

Recently I've been noticing the meta shift to RUG. My previous build had been built to answer Maverick (running Goyfs/Nighthawks/Stalkers w/Deed and other board sweepers in SB). I believe many decks took similar routes and thusly Maverick essentially got metagamed out. This has left a vacuum in power which RUG has filled quite promptly. RUG is Deadguy's worst MU in this meta in my opinion and I wanted to rebuild my deck to answer it. During the beginning stages of my deck development I had intended to keep essentially the original shell but simply add Phyrexian Crusader + Sword of Fire and Ice as well as Choke in the SB. A friend, however, pointed out an alternative route I could take: Gravecrawler. Here is a list I've been considering:

4 Mother of Runes
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Gravecrawler
2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshare
3 Lingering Souls
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

4 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Scrubland
4 Mutavault
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Swamp
1 Plains

As you'll notice, this build focuses more on where many of your builds have been centered: token production with equipment support. However, this build takes that idea a step forward with the Gravecrawlers. Running it with x4 Mutavault assures us not only an extra beater but also that we can always have access to a Zombie for 'Crawlers recursion.

If you notice the CMC of the deck it works out so that Liliana is the only card with BB in its cost, everything else only requires 1 color. Thusly, this means we can have some leniency with the manabase, running more fetches as well as Mutavaults. Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth will help to minimize our fetches drawbacks.

Some people aren't as big fan of Sword of Feast and Famine (I myself being one of them) however this is a build that can actually maximize its untap effect. Running Cabal Therapy + Gravecrawler means we have actions to make during the 2nd main phase. I am still hesitant to sacrifice the Lightning Greaves in my toolbox however consider the vast amounts of recursion in this build I believe it less necessary to protect every creature.
I'm not overly concerned with the SB at this moment because, frankly, the deck still requires testing. However, I think its safe to say the SB will essentially boil down to S&T hate, Leyline of Sanctity, possibly Vindicate, and maybe 1-2 extra equipment.

Anyway, I just wanted to post the current list I'm playtesting. Its not so far removed from some of your lists so sorry if some of you feel as if this is a dastardly new concept, however, considering my list has focused more on a Rock-style with lots of fixing and big beats, this is definitely a new deck strategy for me.

Forlorn Egoist

[Baldo]

Hi,

Play in a small tourney 80+ players, finish top 11 standing 5-2..

1st; 2-1 win to RDW
2nd; 2-1 win to Dredge
3rd; 2-0 win to UR Delver
4th; 1-2 lost to RUG Delver
5th; 2-0 win to UR Delver
6th; 2-0 win to Sneak and Show
7th; 1-2 lost to The Gate

here is my deck list..

2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
3 Plains
4 Scrubland
4 Swamp
4 Wasteland

4 Dark Confidant
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Lingering Souls

2 Gerrard's Verdict
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshare
4 Vindicate
2 Diabolic Edict

1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Umezawa's Jitte


60 Main Deck Cards

2 Perish
3 Extirpate
2 Faerie Macabre
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Phyrexian Crusader
2 Darkblast
1 Batterskull


15 Sideboard Cards



Some change's in Sideboard:

2 Darkblast to 2 Engineered Explosives
2 Phyrexian Crusader to 2 Kor Firewalker

Changes in main deck:

1 Lingering Souls add 1 more Thoughtseize

and add 2 more fetch land Arid Mesa less 1 Swamp and 1 Plains or 1 Wasteland

and 1 Sword of Feast and Famine to 1 Sword of Light and Shadow

that's all for the moment, until next legacy tourney..

Thanks!

[berksowl]

In the Seattle-area meta, Deadguy doesn't seem well-placed right now. Sure, I may not be the most-skilled player with this deck. But at SCG Seattle at the beginning of the month, it was tough going. Lots of combo match-ups. I actually thought RUG Delver was one of the easier matchups I faced all day, and I lost one of those and drew one. And against Maverick, I've had a very hard time.

I've been playing mono-white Death and Taxes a bit, for a change. But I'm curious about BW Stoneblade still, and I'd like to find a way to make it work better.

It seems like its an in-between deck right now. It lacks the speed to race the faster combo decks. And it lacks the control to stabilize, and then claw its way back, against Goblins or Maverick or Merfolk.

I'm seeing some more creature-heavy lists on here, and I'm intrigued by that development. Vampire Nighthawk seems like a great Turn 3 answer. Gravecrawler is an interesting one to see in someone's list. I'm not too sure about Gravecrawler , which seems to have real synergy with only one other card in that list. But the idea of more creature threats seems good, and it seems like it would make the deck faster. The list I'd been playing had 8 creature cards (just Bobs and Mystics), plus 4 each of Lingering Souls and Bitterblossom. Bitterblossom is awesome, if it lands early. But you almost need it to be in your opening hand, or the momentum it can bring you never really takes off. I'd rather draw a Vampire Nighthawk to begin Turn 3 than draw a Bitterblossom.

What do other people think this deck needs most in a meta that seems to have at its core decks like Maverick, RUG and RU Delver, Merfolk, UW Control (Miracles, Counter-top, etc.), Griselbrand Reanimator and Griselbrand Sneak Show, and various Stoneblade decks (UW, Esper, and Death & Taxes especially)?

[Rizso]

If you want to play with gravecrawler then you probly need a couple of more zombies, like Tidehollow Sculler.

IMO RUG, maverick are quite good matchups. As well i feel sneak and show is quite favored. Reanimate is also pretty close, its faster then sneak but weakness against gravehate but very little threat from discard, sneak is very vulnarble against discard, so probly gonna put some Demystify in the board against leyline of sanctity, sneak attack and Animate Dead.

Dredge should be unfavored same with storm combo. Havent faced any goblins or merfolks as of yet. But I think merfolk is very much handable, got no islands, lots of removal and basiclands, they have dont have much of card advantech or removal in their deck and their creatures are only good in numbers. As of goblins, Goblin Ringleaders are for sure gonna be troublesome, card search with matron and goblins working as removal. But if they get more popular there is many options for metaswitch cards in the board. Cant say much about the miracle deck no faced it at all yet.

Not afraid of counterbalance really, to many 3 and 4 dropps in the deck. And with cavern of souls poping up in the meta for goblins, maverick etc I doubt its gonna be a major force. We will see.

Best part about BW is that is barely on anyones radar.

[ForlornEgoist]

As far as more Zombies is concerned, I had intended originally to run Tidehollow Sculler however my lists have traditionally always run several Nighthawks/'Stalkers, so I've just become use to running SDT in my list as well as relying on it to pull me out of tough situations. I'm unsure as to whether or not I wish to sacrifice my ability to filter draws in exchange for a slight addition to recursion, particularly when Top/Bob can help me did into those extra zombies. I'll still have to playtest it, of course. In this argument I'm far less concerned with life loss as the 2 Liliana are my highest cc.

As far as "what our deck needs most," I think redundancy is the best answer. For example, more and more people have begun forsaking their Hymns in exchange for secondary targeted discard (therapy/IoK/Duress). We've also noticed that Vindicate has few relevant targets in this meta and this, too, has begun to see less and less play in lists. Not only this, Many lists have been sporting Lingering Souls as well as varying degrees of Bitterblossom. Realistically, I think this deck is right where it needs to be in terms of development. From this point onward the goal is to simply fine tune select cards and ultimately decide how best to build our respective SBs.

Maverick is slowly dying out. Its doubtful Tribal will return (although I'm sure the new Merfolk lord will spark some playtesting). RUG is the forerunner (of which my above list are my first steps into answering this MU). This really only leaves combo decks (Reanimator/Dredge/SA/S&T) of which can easily be answered with tuning your SB once you find an appropriate MD to answer the other sections of the meta.

Forlorn Egoist

[Zrobass]

Main Deck:
3x Mother of Runes
4x Nip Gwyllion
3x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Dark Confidant
2x Liliana of the Veil

3x Vindicate
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Cabal Therapy
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Hymn to Tourach

4x Bitterblossom
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Chrome Mox

3x Verdant Catacombs
4x Marsh Flats
2x Plains
5x Swamp
4x Scrubland

Sideboard:
1x Darkblast
1x Disenchant
1x Diabolic Edict
1x Perish
1x Engineered Plague
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2x Path to Exile
2x Zealous Persecution
3x Surgical Extraction

This is my current version of the deck. The idea is really to chrome mox turn one (hopefully with Nip Gwyllion and play one of my 2 drops. The deck seems pretty efficient this way.

Please visit my deck's thread at:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24282-Orzhov-Mox-Stoneblade

[Wilkin]

Nip Gwylllion seems kind of underwhelming imo. There are many other creatures I would try instead of that one.....Jotun Grunt, Gatekeeper of Malakir, Tidehollow Sculler etc.


For sideboard, I've tested out Big Game Hunter against Sneak+show and Reanimator decks. It's really good. Right now it kills any creature either deck plays as Reanimator doesn't play Inkwell or Empyrial Archangel that muich anymore. PLus, being a creature it's harder to counter from Griselbrand drawing them a ton of cards. What I try and do to Griselbrand decks is to Extirpate their Force of will...Usually their other COunter magic is Misdirection, Daze, Spell Pierce which BGH dodges for the most part. I've beaten a few players with BGH.

THe only sucky part is BGH doesn't really apply to any other decks. He only kills Tarmogoyf and maybe Ooze against Rug delver. Most of the creatures in Maverick are tiny.

[Zrobass]

Nip Gwylllion seems kind of underwhelming imo. There are many other creatures I would try instead of that one.....Jotun Grunt, Gatekeeper of Malakir, Tidehollow Sculler etc.


For sideboard, I've tested out Big Game Hunter against Sneak+show and Reanimator decks. It's really good. Right now it kills any creature either deck plays as Reanimator doesn't play Inkwell or Empyrial Archangel that muich anymore. PLus, being a creature it's harder to counter from Griselbrand drawing them a ton of cards. What I try and do to Griselbrand decks is to Extirpate their Force of will...Usually their other COunter magic is Misdirection, Daze, Spell Pierce which BGH dodges for the most part. I've beaten a few players with BGH.

THe only sucky part is BGH doesn't really apply to any other decks. He only kills Tarmogoyf and maybe Ooze against Rug delver. Most of the creatures in Maverick are tiny.


THANKS! Dude yeah I'm gonna test with Tidehollow over Nip because outside from under the Mox Tidehollow has actual value, the lifelink seemed to be what my deck wanted originally but seems very minute now.

Main Deck:
3x Mother of Runes
4x Tidehollow Sculler
3x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Dark Confidant
2x Liliana of the Veil

3x Vindicate
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Cabal Therapy
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Hymn to Tourach

4x Bitterblossom
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Chrome Mox

3x Verdant Catacombs
4x Marsh Flats
2x Plains
5x Swamp
4x Scrubland

Sideboard:
1x Darkblast
1x Disenchant
1x Diabolic Edict
1x Vindicate
1x Engineered Plague
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2x Path to Exile
2x Zealous Persecution
3x Surgical Extraction

[Rizso]

Went 2-1-1 in our weekly legacy tournament today. Same main deck 3 cards diffrence in the board instead of 3 ethersworn canonists, I use 1 humility and 2 Seal of Cleansing.

First match was against zoo won with 2-0. Resolving walkers just wins the matchup. Second was against my friend with his rug-delver 1-2. A very tight match in the last one where I thoughseize and sees 2 dazes 1 fow and 3 lands after he mulls. I pick 1 of the dazes. He managed to top deck a blue card later after when I played my liliana. It was just his day today he went 4-0. After a very tight battle he takes it.

3rd game is against a show and tell / omniscience / griselbrand, very cool deck. First game he starts with a very counter heavy hand while i start with a heavy discard hand. The hands pretty much is like fire and water taking out each other. I resolve 2 bitterblossoms. He then resolves a griselbrand with a show and tell. I cast liliana but he got a fow for her sadly. But i got enought tokens and got enought maindecked cards against brand that is isnt over yet. He then some turns later resolves a show and tell into omniscience. He goes burning wish a spell that cost 5 mana look at 3 cards then you either draw 3 or return it to your hand. He cast this one alot of times til he finds and other burning wish he then storms me out.

Next game i starts with a 0 landhand but got chrome mox, surgical, humility, oblivion ring, liliana, zealous persecution and something more. Im bit startled on land but the hand just got the stuff for show and tell. Some turns later i draw a land cast blossom he counters i then continues to cast 2 more bitterblossom the following 2 turns. Takes this games with very little resistance. Last games we have less then 5min left. He goes for show and tell with omniscience and gives the turn over he doesnt get and gas at all whiel i have started to beat with some tokens but it ends with a draw.

Last game is against a homebrew with elementals. Win first game pretty easy discard clearing pretty much his whole hand with 2 cabal therapies and the board with zealous persecution and liliana. Games 2 I hit cabal therapy on the elf that can be tapped for mana for each color you have as permanents. I resolves bitterblossom and lingering souls but he resolves a lark then an other lark but I draw humilty with an actives jitte game over :P

After playing and talking over with rug players I find the matchup being in my favor. Active planeswalker / humility against it is really game winning against them. With smart pinpointed discard effects its very possible to get through thoes important planeswalker / humilty and thoes will win the game. Rug doesnt have any card draw after all. Cantrips arent carddraw they just filters and searchers.

IMO the deck is really good positioned right now where it has good matchup against both blue decks like RUG and as well creature decks like maverick, zoo and bant etc. Worst matchups are the ones where discard and removal arent useful or has little use, Dredge, reanimator and storm decks.

[Wilkin]

Went 2-1-1 in our weekly legacy tournament today. Same main deck 3 cards diffrence in the board instead of 3 ethersworn canonists, I use 1 humility and 2 Seal of Cleansing.

First match was against zoo won with 2-0. Resolving walkers just wins the matchup. Second was against my friend with his rug-delver 1-2. A very tight match in the last one where I thoughseize and sees 2 dazes 1 fow and 3 lands after he mulls. I pick 1 of the dazes. He managed to top deck a blue card later after when I played my liliana. It was just his day today he went 4-0. After a very tight battle he takes it.

3rd game is against a show and tell / omniscience / griselbrand, very cool deck. First game he starts with a very counter heavy hand while i start with a heavy discard hand. The hands pretty much is like fire and water taking out each other. I resolve 2 bitterblossoms. He then resolves a griselbrand with a show and tell. I cast liliana but he got a fow for her sadly. But i got enought tokens and got enought maindecked cards against brand that is isnt over yet. He then some turns later resolves a show and tell into omniscience. He goes burning wish a spell that cost 5 mana look at 3 cards then you either draw 3 or return it to your hand. He cast this one alot of times til he finds and other burning wish he then storms me out.

Next game i starts with a 0 landhand but got chrome mox, surgical, humility, oblivion ring, liliana, zealous persecution and something more. Im bit startled on land but the hand just got the stuff for show and tell. Some turns later i draw a land cast blossom he counters i then continues to cast 2 more bitterblossom the following 2 turns. Takes this games with very little resistance. Last games we have less then 5min left. He goes for show and tell with omniscience and gives the turn over he doesnt get and gas at all whiel i have started to beat with some tokens but it ends with a draw.

Last game is against a homebrew with elementals. Win first game pretty easy discard clearing pretty much his whole hand with 2 cabal therapies and the board with zealous persecution and liliana. Games 2 I hit cabal therapy on the elf that can be tapped for mana for each color you have as permanents. I resolves bitterblossom and lingering souls but he resolves a lark then an other lark but I draw humilty with an actives jitte game over :P

After playing and talking over with rug players I find the matchup being in my favor. Active planeswalker / humility against it is really game winning against them. With smart pinpointed discard effects its very possible to get through thoes important planeswalker / humilty and thoes will win the game. Rug doesnt have any card draw after all. Cantrips arent carddraw they just filters and searchers.

IMO the deck is really good positioned right now where it has good matchup against both blue decks like RUG and as well creature decks like maverick, zoo and bant etc. Worst matchups are the ones where discard and removal arent useful or has little use, Dredge, reanimator and storm decks.

I find the most difficult deck to deal with right now is Sneak attack. Reanimator isn't too bad since we have access to removal in both colours, have Karakas and pinpoint discard is good against them. PLus if you are like me and pack tons of GY hate Reanimator and dredge for that matter are decks I don't fear at all.

Sneak attack is harder to hate out. Leyline of Sanctity is annoying since it stops sacrifice effects (unless it's innocent blood) and targeted discard. PLus they have blood moon for Karakas. I've managed to beat Sneak attack but it's because they went ahead and cast show and tell instead of waiting for Sneak attack or Through the Breach.

Yeah, RUG delver is IMHO favoured for us since some Deadguy decks pack more removal then they have creatures.

Zrobrass: If you are worried about life loss you could just add a Sword of Light and shadow to your main deck. And I would suggest taking out a plains and putting in a Karakas, as your maindeck doesn't need WW.

[Zrobass]

Zrobrass: If you are worried about life loss you could just add a Sword of Light and shadow to your main deck. And I would suggest taking out a plains and putting in a Karakas, as your maindeck doesn't need WW.

Main Deck:
Creatures
3x Mother of Runes
3x Tidehollow Sculler
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Dark Confidant

Planeswalkers
2x Liliana of the Veil

Instants/Sorceries: Removal
3x Vindicate
4x Swords to Plowshares

Instants/Sorceries: Discard
1x Cabal Therapy
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Hymn to Tourach

Enchantments/Artifacts
4x Bitterblossom
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Batterskull
4x Chrome Mox

Lands
3x Verdant Catacombs
4x Marsh Flats
1x Karakas
1x Plains
4x Swamp
4x Scrubland


Sideboard:
1x Darkblast
1x Diabolic Edict
1x Disenchant
1x Engineered Plague
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Vindicate
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2x Path to Exile
2x Zealous Persecution
3x Surgical Extraction

Thanks man! I've been testing this list and I really like it a ton better. Thanks for the suggestions :smile:

[thommoi]

THANKS! Dude yeah I'm gonna test with Tidehollow over Nip because outside from under the Mox Tidehollow has actual value...

I hope you realize that you cannot pitch Tidehollow Sculler to Chrome Mox, since he's an artifact. :)

[berksowl]

I hope you realize that you cannot pitch Tidehollow Sculler to Chrome Mox, since he's an artifact. :)

Never thought of that, the Tidehollow Sculler with the Chrome Mox. It's not a colorless card, but it is an artifact, and Mox says "non-artifact card."

I don't like Tidehollow Sculler that much in this deck anyway. I think there's plenty of threats without it, and plenty of hand destruction too. It was featured in this deck back when Lingering Souls and Liliana of the Veil were not an option.

[DLifshitz]

Never thought of that, the Tidehollow Sculler with the Chrome Mox. It's not a colorless card, but it is an artifact, and Mox says "non-artifact card."

I don't like Tidehollow Sculler that much in this deck anyway. I think there's plenty of threats without it, and plenty of hand destruction too. It was featured in this deck back when Lingering Souls and Liliana of the Veil were not an option.

Tidehollow Sculler works best if you're playing Aether Vial. That way you can Vial it in during an opponent's draw step, in response to a Miracle trigger, in response to a SFM activation, etc. Otherwise, it's neither disruptive enough nor threatening enough.

[_Fortune_]

I've been playing the tokens version of Deadguy for a few weeks (Riszo's list -1 Elspeth, -1 Bitterblossom, +2 Ghastly Demise) and I'm loving it. I feel like I have game against the entire field and the deck is a ton of fun (love reaching into a box w/5 kinds of tokens in it).

I recently started testing 1 Vault of the Archangel. I've only drawn it twice, but in both instances it was a terrific threat. In one game, it allowed me to pull far ahead against goblins, who couldn't deal with the swarm of lifelinking fae and spirits.

Has anyone else tried the tokens list (you should), and, in either case, what would make you play the more creature-based lists (with mother of runes, crusader, etc) over the token builds.

Thanks guys!

[berksowl]

I've been playing the tokens version of Deadguy for a few weeks (Riszo's list -1 Elspeth, -1 Bitterblossom, +2 Ghastly Demise) and I'm loving it. I feel like I have game against the entire field and the deck is a ton of fun (love reaching into a box w/5 kinds of tokens in it).

I recently started testing 1 Vault of the Archangel. I've only drawn it twice, but in both instances it was a terrific threat. In one game, it allowed me to pull far ahead against goblins, who couldn't deal with the swarm of lifelinking fae and spirits.

Has anyone else tried the tokens list (you should), and, in either case, what would make you play the more creature-based lists (with mother of runes, crusader, etc) over the token builds.

Thanks guys!

Is "fae" the corrent plural form for faerie? Hmm. Interesting.

I've played the tokens build a fair bit, the one with Bitterblossom, Lingering Souls, and Elspeth. I played only eight creature spells in my build: four each of Bob and Stoneforge Mystic.

I tested various other creatures: Thalia, Tidehollow Sculler, Mom. But my conclusion was that this deck will always want to leave room for disruptive spells, like removal and discard, to which it has access to the best in the game. It also wants to leave room for a Stoneblade package of a Jitte, a Batterskull, and another Sword of something something. The token generators Bitterblossom and Lingering Souls are versatile and cheap to cast. They're great to attach equipment to, and they're good to chump block when you're in need. And then the overall utility of Bobs and Stoneforge Mystics are central to your gameplan with this deck. So I can't really justify including additional creatures in this build.

But if I had to pick one to include, it would be Mother of Runes.

[Rizso]

If I would go for more creatures then i would probly go for something crazy like adapting the Blade Splicer / Restoration Angel Strategi that is in standard or Hero of Bladehold that team italia has started to play.


Vault of the Archangel does look very intresting thought the total of 5 lands to have it going is a bit sketchy to me. Maybe in the board.

[_Fortune_]

If I would go for more creatures then i would probly go for something crazy like adapting the Blade Splicer / Restoration Angel Strategi that is in standard or Hero of Bladehold that team italia has started to play.

I tried out Hero of Bladehold in place of Sorin, and I immediately missed having planeswalkers in testing against UW miracles.

I'm currently using cabal therapy (awesome with tokens), over hymn to tourach as discard spells 4-8 (running a 2-2 split of thoughtseize and inquisition).

[Wilkin]

I tried out Hero of Bladehold in place of Sorin, and I immediately missed having planeswalkers in testing against UW miracles.

I'm currently using cabal therapy (awesome with tokens), over hymn to tourach as discard spells 4-8 (running a 2-2 split of thoughtseize and inquisition).

I've only played against UW miracle once and yeah having a planeswalker or a bitterblossom does help a lot when they cast Terminus.

I would definitely recommend Cabal Therapy over Hymn to Tourach right now as some blue decks run Misdirection main (especially Sneak show).

I still run Liliana as she's good against most combo and creature decks. I've taken out elspeth since I find a lot of people running Spell Pierce and Sulfur Elemental. In her place I've been running Phyrexian Obliterator. STP and Path are annoying but if they don't have those....he's a house. I beat a Maverick deck at SCG Buffalo that had Knight of the Reliquary and mom out. Obliterator is devastating against RUG Delver, especially ones that don't run stifle anymore.

[Rizso]

Gonna twick some of my numbers in the deck. Cant say I really need 4 stoneforge mystics in the deck atm, I board some out pretty much in all matchups. And Sword of Fire and Ice is defently geting out of my board it has pretty much no purpose.

I am gonna test out a Phyrexian Tower as it will jump me to higher casting costs of walkers or hardcasting batterskulls. Changing the lonely sword of fire and ice for a timely reinforcement.

[_Fortune_]

Riszo, would you mind posting your updated list? Are you still running Elspeth main?

[Rizso]

Just got back from our weekly legacy serie we have, we where 41 players in a 4 round. Went 3-1. 2-0 rug-delver, 1-2 rug-delver, 1-0 esper-artfacts 2-0 elves.

match 1
Game1
Starts out with a naked cabal therapy, naming brainstorm and he got 2. And then procced to win the game pretty easy with some spirit tokens and an elspeth.
Game2

He starts with volcanic island into delver. I go waste he volcanic island play - mox into a thoughtseize picking his brainstorm oh yea. I resolve a bitterblossom match is tight i chump with token against the delver draws a sorin and resolves it and make emblem. My token trades with his delver. I then make vampire token he bolts it i go down to 1 make and then makes an other emblem and lifelinks away to safty :D Sorin saved my ass.

Match 2
He starts, he goes t1 delver I go polluted delta into swamp into thoughtseize, and he had 2 brainstorms and goyf, i pick the goyf. He delver flips. But I draw no more lands this game so i decide to not show him anything more of my deck but scooping. All he knew was delta swamp, thoughtseize and figured i was probly playing a storm deck.
Game 2 I won pretty easy when he went for his antistorm plan! :D

Game3 He resolves 3 delver this game if they would have been goyfs or nimbles / oozes my perish i had in my hand would have done it.

6 turn of 1/1 delver beating my from 20 to 10. Had alot of cards i wanted to resolve but i knew he had both fow, daze and pierce in his hand. Had Elspeth, humility in my hand i wanted to resolve. when at 10 i cast bob. Next turn he naked flips his 2 remaining delvers taking me to 4, bob reveals timely reinforcement but he had both daze and pierce to take care of it. Card after was ofc the Zealous Persecution 1 turn to late. It would had killed 3 delvers. Well cant win all delver matchs. Still got about 75% duals wins against them. From weekly legacy tournament i have now 14-4 against rug-delver. Did no missplays here except maybe should have mulliganing in the first game.

Game 3 Esper artifact / tezzerate thingy
It was a causal deck but thoes are the stranges matchs for the deadguy deck. It toke 39 min to win the first game..
He starts land go i start land thoughtseize, taking mana leak, next turn i go cabal therapy for oblivion ring. Then mox into stoneforge into batterskull. He cast dispellers capsual, I put batterskull with my stoneforge into play then sac stoneforge to flashback cabal therapy for phyrexian metamorph. He trades his capsual for my skull. I play an other stoneforge geting jitte. Then at 5 mana he casts tezzerate the seeker and starts to search up executioner capsuals. game was to long to put everything into here. But a highlight was playing a zealous persecution when attacking with 3 1/1 flier tokens into his tezzerate when he is blocking with a 2/2 flier and a 2/3 flier taking down of his creatures and his walker. Casting 2 lingering souls and flashbacking them without leaving priority to play arround his maindecked Tormods crypt. With loads of tokens I attack with 10 tokens for 3 turns then its over. With 1 min left on the clock.

Last game vs elves, this match is a frighning deck to play against. The deck doesnt need much to just win or just flood the board. His deck was awesome looking with pretty much all the elves being in foil :D ANd i do love the foils.
Anyway he starts out with a forest - Quirion Ranger I go fetch inquistion seeing sentinel, pact and 3 forests. I pick the sentinel. He plays forest - llanowar go. I go sword his llanowar into mox into stoneforge for jitte. He then tries to go off with but only geting 3 cards he scoops for a active jitte.

I mull my 7 as it has no removal, no discard just lands and creatures. Thats not gonna win the matchup. I mull to a 6 with 1 swamp, 1 thoughtseize, 1cabal therapy, 1 stoneforge 1 Perish 1 Lingering Souls. He starts with forest Quirion Ranger again. I go swamp thougthseize Seeing, Birchlore ranger, visionary, nettle, symbiot and a grip. I Take the ranger. He then plays Nettle and symbiot. I dont draw a land but do cabal therapy for the visionary. next turn i draw a scrubland and play my stoneforge for a jitte. He had a gsz that found a elf lord that makes toke the turn before. My stoneforge chumped, I draw a dark confidant and i play it im at 9. All i need is a land to perish. I block with my confidant he uses his symbiot to save his craeture i block. But that lets my keep my confidant. Confidant gives me the land. I play land perish his board he saves his nettle with the symbiot but I have my therapy in my gy ready for it. Sacrificing my Bob to therapy and seening he got only Grip and shaman in his hand with only 2 forests in play. Next turn i play lingering souls Then the turn after Jitte Equip. I use jitte to have the board cleared for every elf i can see. I tak 1 counter to gain 2 life to thoughtseize picking glimpse. He finaly draw his 3rd forest to play a shaman to get rid of jitte but i have my 2nd jitte in my hand. I play jitte and equip and kill his elf. Him at 4 life i got active jitte 4 lingering souls tokens and him only having 3 land in play game over.

Decklist:
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Bitterblossom
4 Lingering souls
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Zealous Persecution

3 Chrome Mox
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Fetid Heath
4 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
4 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Seal of Cleansing
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Timely Reinforcement
1 Elspeth, knight errant
1 Humility
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Thoughtseize
2 Perish
4 Surgical Extraction

Didnt get to test the Phyrexian Tower yet, happy with other numbers and cards except maybe going down to 3 stoneforge as im no playing swords atm. Stoneforge mystics are currently pretty much sacrifical lambs to Therapy's atm, once they have found my jitte im done with them :P. Cabal Therapy is just the best discard spell there is for the deck, its so strong, by far the best discard spell.

Hope you enjoy reading as much as i enjoy writing :P

[Leto]

some quick question, played long time no DGA

- How neccessary is Chrome Mox in the token-List? Before Lili I tested them and was not that impressed, managed to do cool stuff in some games, in others they were really bad
- with BB and Bob its quite a bit of Lifeloss, can the deck compensate it with Jitte, Skull and Sorin? Used top long time for reduced loss by Bob, but maybe to mana-intensive with so much cc3-4

looking forward to play DGA again :)

[Rizso]

# Right now I wouldnt play without the moxes. They are really good when you are on the draw. You can really catch up on the tempo. The earlier you can play lingering souls and walkers the easier it is to stabalize and win the game. Not to mention they give you the little extra speed you need against combo to get the things going. Always possible to side out a mox in some games when being on the play. The diffrence Moxes makes it possible where you can go t1 discard + cabal therapy, into t2 lingering souls flashback cabal therapy. Now the hand is pretty much wrecked. The deck as multiple ways to get out lot of card advantech but its at the 2 -4 cc and moxes makes that happend alot faster and wasteland proof. May think its just 1mana to wait but 1 mana makes alot diffrence in a format where everything is so explosive and volotile. Games are very swingy games can turn 180 in matter of plays.

# Sure there is Thoughtseize, bob, bb and fetchland that do self inflicted damage but the damage from bob and bb are pretty much always worth it. If the triggers from thoes killed you then you would have died even harder without them as you couldnt chump block or get the right cards to survive or win the game. The curve in the deck is low, 22 at 0, 12 at 1, 11 at 2, 7 at 3, 3 at 4, 1 at 5 wich makes it an average of 1.2 damage per bob trigger as long as you dont fetch to much :P

Not to mention lingering souls did give the deck alot faster clock then it had before lingering souls. Also it gave the possibility to stall out games so you can use your life more as a resource then just being a punching bag or just finish of the oppoent before life starts being an issue. Stall with tokens til resolving walkers then ride the walkers to victory.

# On the Divining top, tbh i dont like the card. It requires play uneccesary amount of fetchlands in a rug delver infested meta and its very mana draining. The plan isnt to ride on dark confidants constant card advantech but rather have it long enought to find resources to be able to resolve a walker. That means the bob is probly gonna be sacrificed to cabal therapy to clear the way for the walker. The bob will win that game but not through damage but rather making it possible to find the stuff i need. Its very rare to have dark confidants alive for a long time, they do tend to have a large target over their head just like Stoneforge Mystics got.

[Wasteland]

Personally i never would cut the Senseis Top, due it does 3 absolutely necessary things in this deck:
1.) As in every deck, it stabilizes you and lets you draw, what you need
2.) It makes your Confidants way better in not letting him flip multiple Planeswalkers, Souls etc. ...
3.) and this is the most important thing: In contrary to any blue deck that uses tops, you dont want to draw discard spells in the midgame, when both players play from the library (while blue-based decks have no problems with drawing multiple force of wills...)

Here's my list that went 4:0 and 3:2 in Nuremberg (lost twice to punishing fire control, both matches quite close)

"Lost Souls"

//lands (21)
4x scrubland
4x wasteland
4x swamp
1x plains
2x polluted delta
1x flooded strand
4x marsh flats
1x karakas

//creatures (8)
4x dark confidant
4x stoneforge mystic

//disruption (14)
3x inquisition of kozilek
4x hymn to tourach
4x swords to plowshares
3x zealous persecution

//other spells (17)
3x chrome mox
3x sensei's divining top
1x umezawa's jitte
1x batterskull
3x liliana of the veil
2x sorin, lord of inistrad
4x lingering souls

//sideboard
1x umezawa's jitte
3x duress
4x surgical extraction
3x oblivion ring (>vindicate / disenchant, cause you can put them with show and tell, which can rly be nasty if they start with leyline...)
2x ghastly demise (i dont like path to exile as additional removal in the board but you need some against certain decks) => i dont think the deck needs necessarily perish in the board, sinde persecution clears the board vs. elves, progenitus can be handled by liliana and demist is more flexible in most matchups (just think about having perish vs. delvers...)
2x aethersworn canonist

Here my main question: You think Cabal Therapy is better then hymn to tourach?

Greetz from Germany,
Marius Hausmann

[Rizso]

#Yes i do think Cabal Therapy is way better then Hymn to Tourach atm. Hymn can be misdirected but cabal therapy doesnt do anything if it gets misdirected. Also cabal therapy makes it alot easier to push through your spells then hymn does. Imo the best discard spells in order is Cabal Therapy>Thoughtseize> Inquisition of Kozilek > liliana > hymn. Cabal Therapy is one of thoes high risk high reward cards and requires alot from the player that is playing it. Your own personal intuition as well know exactly what cards you need to take at the current moment. Also knowing when want to flashback it and when not flashback it.

#Tbh Perish is just to good of a black card not to have a couple in the 75. Perish do kill all the other creatures delver decks do play. Really cant have to many sweepers against maverick or elvesm, elves can have a miser lord to blank the Persecution. Its just one of thoes card that just turns the game and let you win the game.

# Yea, oblivion ring is better then Vindicate at this moment. The decks where you want oblivion ring vindicate doesnt do everything. The show and tell Matchups.

# Some do like top but I dont. Against blue decks the midgame discard spells are fine, against more creature decks some discard spells will be boarded out. Need to push through counters. As for the top it does require more fetchlands as well as fetching more. I would much rather spend life on cards or tokens then fetching lands. Fetching out a land also increases your average mana cost in the remaining library. Also this comes back to cabal therapy where you can have multiple dark confidants get a couple of cards out of them then get rid of some to get some real business out.

[Leto]

Whats your shot on the big tribals (Merfolk, Elves, Goblins) atm? In Germany they getting quite popular again after print of CoS and Krenko. Esspecially Krenko is really scary in action.

Elves seems pretty clear, denying their Combo and Perish them to hell.
Merfolk and Goblins seems to me more difficult. Merfolk have 16-20 Lords, more than 2 or 3 on the Table at the same time and we are in trouble and they have Countermagic to protect them. Goblins has the same Card-Advantage we have and is way faster than we are, plus saccing tokens for direct Damage.

[Rizso]

I would say goblins is the harder of the 2. The stoneforge package is really strong against merfolk but against goblins they have maindecked scrappers most of the time. So my plan against goblins is to tokens going the more token generators the bettter and resolving Humility asap. If goblins would start to see more play then probly some more humility to the board and or some Torpor Orbs. Why torpor orb? Against goblins it hinders everything dangerous they can do... no matron, no ringleader, no scrapper and no seigegang as well catching Clique, Snapcaster and stoneforge mystics.

As for elves its a very scary matchup way more scary then the other tribal matchups. They only need a couple of elves to get going. But praying that 2 persecutions, 2 perish 4 swords, 3 liliana, 10 discard spells and 2 jittes will be able to handle them before they overwhelm or instagib you.

[Aadz0r]

Hey guys, I've been running the deck myself for quite some time and liking it a lot. I just had 2 questions.

1: How is the Miracle match up? I don't have any buddies playing the deck and haven't faced it in tournaments so far. It seems like a pretty scary match in which Bitterblossom is key, which leads me to my second question.

2: Is Bitterblossom still necessary, I'm siding it out more often than not. It's awesome against Esperblade and midrange decks but I feel like both match ups are already in my favor, and in every other match you have to have it turn 1/2 or it's way too slow. The only problem I have with cutting it is that I feel like I have so few other threats in the deck. What are your thoughts on it?

[Sughayyer]

Hi guys, I have a question. I am usually a The Rock player, but sometimes I tinker with deadguy ale, because I like this deck very much. Well, on to the question:
Is is viable to replace stoneforge package with intangible virtue (would make room for more cards) or is just plain stupid? When I played this deck, I did run the sfm package (1 jitte, 1 sowrd ur, 1 sword bg) and I also ran 1 ajani goldmane (because he's just great weith the tokens). What do you think of it?

[Rizso]

# Against miracle deck
I have personally not played against the current list yet but its pretty much a counterbalance list with sweepers. So should be played against like that. Geting in some disenchant effects from the board. Playing arround that terminus, resolving token generators and not flashbacking lingering souls when you dont really need to. With minimal creatures they play they are gonna have some issues with interacting with planeswalkers.

# Have not been disapointed with bitterblossoms in many matchups but the burn, and instagib combos like elves & storm etc. Personally my bitterblossoms arent going anywhere. What exaclty matchups do you feel the bitterblossoms are bad in?

# I do not believe in replacing the stoneforge but think its probly fine going down to 3 stoneforges. While i havent tried out the virtues i do have a problem with the card that it is depending on other cards to anything. Also the list is very tight atm. Room for the virtues are very few.

[Rizso]

An other weeekly legacy tournament done. Went 3-1 again. Went against bant, storm, dreadstalker and lastly maverick.

#matchup 1: Bant. This one is a quite good matchup, geting heavy discard / removal hands in both game and takes out out every threat while tokens beats or to active walker. He scoops in both of the games.
2-0

#matchup 2: Storm. Terrifying matchup. Not a matchup I would like to see.
Game 1 I rip his hand to pieces and resolve a stoneforge into batterskull and starts to beat while i keep taking cards from his hand.

Game 2 I mull to 6 with 3 land, cabal therapy, thoughtseize, inquisition of kozilek
He starts with duress taking my cabal therapy. I draw thoughtseize nr2 cast thoughtseize taking his brainstorm, seeing tutor, tutor, cabal ritual, and a fetch. He draws ponder and plays ponder I go land thoughtseize, inquisition taking his dark ritual and cabal ritual. Next turn he draws yet an other infernal tutor and search for an other cabal ritual. On my turn I cast lingering souls and flashback my cabal therapy taking his 2 infernal tutors. He goes draw go I draw a bob play bob and flashback lingering souls. Start to beat with tokens. When he is at 6 life he uses his last resources to and tendrils me for 6 taking me from 13 to 7. He was hoping for my bob to give me hits but he only gives me 2 hits total and its over.
2-0

#Matchup3 Dreadstalker, Delver, dreadnought stifle, torpororb, tombstalker etc.
I start playing thoughtseize taking the nought, he inquision taking my zealous persecution as my other cards where wasteland, lingering souls, lingering souls and a sorin. I draw bob, play wasteland and play bob. I draw waste cast waste. double wastes his lands he stifles one. But im doing the beats so thats fine. draw land draw land cast bitterblossom into lingering souls and swords his tombstalker he drew. Cast sorin for emblem and its over.

Game 2 i mull to a solid 5 with Fetid heath, mox, thoughtseize, cabal therapy and liliana. He starts out with a ponder I draw a none black card. PLaying Heath mox imprinting liliana, tap for 2x black mana, casting thoughtseize, seeing Engineered Explosives 2x, tombstalker, nought, Delta, stifle, nought. Taking Dreadnought and play cabal therapy on explosives. He do draw land go I do draw go he fetches and go for a tombstalker for 2 mana. I draw and play bob. he attacks me down to 14. I attack him for 2 taking him to 17. I flashback cabal therapy on stifle. His only card left is a force of will. I play chrome mox and fetchland finding a scrubland and play humility. Next turn I resolve bitterblossom and swords his tombstalker and goes back up to 18 from 17. I cast lingering souls and start to beat down for real and he got nothing for humilty.
2-0

#Last matchup Maverick
First game mull to 4, 3 hands with no lands or moxes gg. The hand is 2x zealous persecutions, plains and a jitte i think it was. He starts with karakas for Mother of runes. I go plain go He goes cavern of souls naming humans Thalia I go wasteland on his cavern, afraid of knight of the reliquary as have nothing against it in my hand. i Draw swamp and play stoneforge finding batterskulle. He plays linvala game over. Where not even in the game really. Maybe the wasteland was a miss as i had 2x persecutions in my hand that could have wiped the board.

Next game I i keep, thoughtseize, bob lands and something more. I start out with a thoughtseize seeing: Noble, zenith, Ooze, Wasteland, cradle and savannah I Grap the zenith. He goes land noble I go land bob and he goes jitte. I play bitterblossom. I trade my bob for his noble equiped with jitte. Against jitte its a very uphill battle. I try to stall out the game with bitterblossom tokens and lingering souls tokens. But I dont draw the stoneforge, jitte, perish or swords to plowshares. When i top deck the humilty he got the krosan grip ready for it and attack for lethal. Next card on the deck is ofc perish...
0-2, its a quite favored match. But winning with a 4 hand on the draw against mor + thalia is or winning against active untouched Jitte is quite impossible.

[Aadz0r]

Good result once again! Too bad on the Maverick match, since it's actually very favourable. I was wondering if it's not too much trouble, what is your sideboard plan against the tier 1 decks? I often have trouble figuring out what to take out.

And another question on a situation that came up a while ago. I was playing vs Bant Stoneforge, and I had been controlling the board in the early game and getting down planeswalkers in the late game, but he had already resolved a Batterskull in the meantime. Now the problem was that he had about 9 lands in play so he could return it to his hand and replay it whenever he had to, and I couldnt win through all the life he was gaining. At the time I was running Vindicate so I was waiting until I could vindicate his batterskull and when he returned it to hand I could flashback therapy. Now perhaps I was missing something else I could have done, but how do you deal with that, since you don't run Vindicates?

[Rizso]

Ok, some fast sideboard pointers:

RUG-delver: want my perish, my extra thoughtseizes, Humility and the extra jitte I take out Batterskull, some stoneforges, 1 chrome mox as rug will most likely bring in some Ancient Grudge and stoneforges will get burned down before it will be able to put down the batterskull. The remaining stoneforges are just there to find the Jittes. Plan is still clean their hand and the resolve walkers.

GW-Maverick: Humility, perish, jitte, Timely Reinforcement, Elspeth. However after playing against it yesterday, seal of cleansing / Oblivion Ring should be probly be in there as well as active Jitte is pretty much the biggest reason to lose against the deck. With 4 sweepers are the board 2 Perish 2 zealous Persecution after the board. Discard spells are quite weak against the deck and some will be board out for some stronger spells as well a chrome mox, some stoneforges and batterskull. They will bring in some more artifact hate against the stoneforge package so best thing is to lower the impact of thoes cards.

Sneak and show. I bring in all the 2 thoughtseizes, 4 Surgical Extraction, 2 Seal of Cleansing, 1 oblivion Ring, 1 Humility, 1 Elspeth, 1 jitte, Bring out 4 swords to plowshares, 1 batterskull,1 Bitterblossom, 2 stoneforges, 2 sorin, 2 zealous persecution. Have to defeat them through their hand as going for their creatures arent gonna work already lost if 1 of them enters the game.

Storm: Bringing all Surgical Extraction and the extra Thoughtseize, Taking out the swords and persecution

Nothing is ever set in stone. No everyone is having the same sideboard.

[Sentient6]

Hello guys,

I am new to this deck, but I always wanted to play it. Now I am slowly building it. I wanted to test/run a list with Aether Vial. I know that the token/walker list is really popular atm, but I wanted to ask if my list is also viable. And if yes, what changes could or should be made to improve it. I'm also not too sure about what to include in the sideboard, so it's just a rough idea. Here is the list I intend to run, keep in mind that I haven't been playtesting it yet since I am still missing some cards, especially considering the mana base:

Lands (20):

4 x Marsh Flats
2 x Polluted Delta
4 x Scrubland
2 x Fetid Heath
1 x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 x Swamp
2 x Plains
4 x Wasteland

Creatures (19):

4 x Dark Confidant
4 x Stoneforge Mystic
4 x Tidehollow Sculler
4 x Serra Avenger
3 x Mother of Runes

Stoneforge Toolbox (3):

1 x Batterskull
1 x Umezawa's Jitte
1 x Sword of Light and Shadow

Other Spells (18):

4 x Aether Vial
2 x Thoughtseize
2 x Inquisition of Kozilek
4 x Swords to Plowshares
2 x Liliana of the Veil
4 x Lingering Souls

Possible Sideboard Choices:

- Leyline of the Void or Extirpate
- Ethersworn Canonist or Thalia
- Duress
- Vindicate
- Perish or Deathmark
- Maybe one Manriki-Gusari


What do you think of this approach? Thanks in advance. :smile:

[Megadeus]

Thalia in this deck seems too good to not play. She is pretty good against everything other than Maverick for the most part. She is good vs RUG, Control, combo especially.

[Sentient6]

Yeah, you are right.. Talking about Mainboard here? If yes, what to cut?

[Hardcore]

serra avenger doesn't look so hot, even with vial in the deck

[Sughayyer]

Talia seems good with the vial + creatures version, but I don't like it in blossom + souls version. It delays your planeswalkers, hinders your removals and also your discards. That said, I usually play the rock, not deadguy, so maybe I'm wrong.

[Aadz0r]

If you run vials I'd say cut Liliana. Even though she is awesome and can win games on her own, if you have a vial in play you usually want to get your creatures in play in your opponents turn so her +1 ability is horrible, and like the others already said, run 3 Thalia. I also dislike Lingering Souls in that build. Too much of a mana sink for too little value, but I might be wrong, it's been quite some time since the last time I played the Vial build. Also, switch the numbers on Mom and Serra Avenger, and I'd run 3 Phyrexian Revoker. You lose to Pernicious Deed, and it's great to be able to neutralize cards like Top and Jace that give your opponent a big advantage. Put your discard in the sideboard, turn 1 you want to play either Mom or Vial or you just delay yourself a turn which can be crucial.

On a different note, I ran Riszo's list with -1 Elspeth, -1 Bitterblossom and +1 land, +1 Vindicate, and sideboard quite different, in a local 40 man tourney yesterday and went 3-2-1.

Round 1: Stormcombo,
Game 1 I mulled twice, he kept a hand with a couple of cantrips but no business. He didn't find any and I was able to get Confidant going. In the end he had to try Ad Nauseam, but didn't find anything and I won.
Game 2 he held a Therapy in hand when he knew I had a Mindbreak Trap in hand. In my turn I topdecked my own Therapy and made him discard his. After that he couldn't get rid of my Trap and I won.

2-0
(1-0)

Round 2: UBg Landstill
Game 1: Turn 1 we both did nothing. Turn 2 he gets a standstill. After that we draw and play lands for a couple of turns. I waste 2 Factories and when he has 7 cards in hand I crack the Standstill in his turn. I get a couple of creatures in play but he plays Deed, gets rid of everything I have and then has counters for my business and lands Jace.
Game 2: Went a little better, I stick Confidant turn 2 and he draws me into some business. Then he has counters for everything else I try to play and plays Deed, and I lose
0-2
(1-1)

Round 3: RUG Delver
Game 1: Made a horrible mistake somewhere turn 3 where I forget to get my Batterskull in play at the end of my opponents turn. It almost lost me the match but luckily she wasn't able to topdeck Lightning Bolt and so I was able to win it after all
Game 2: Took me just a little too long to stabilize, and when I set up lethal for next turn I was on 2 life. She had no cards in hand but topdecks Bolt to win the game.
Game 3: I kept a pretty bad hand with 2 wasteland, 3 other lands, 1 relic and 1 surgical. I find business the next couple of turns and wasn't going to lose after stabilizing, but there was very little time left in the round and she started to slow play. I tried to get the win with Batterskull and some other good stuff in play, but she started chumping with 1/1 creatures just so long to get the draw which was pretty annoying. Oh well, it happens I guess, and I was still able to go top 8 with 3 more wins.
1-1
(1-1-1)

Round 4: Hypergenesis
Game 1: I discard his entire hand by turn 2 with 2 thoughtseize and 1 Therapy and after that he finally finds a show and tell when I already have more than enough to win through that.
Game 2: I keep a hand with 1 Thoughtseize, 2 Therapies and Lingering Souls hoping to get his entire hand when he starts with Leyline of Sanctity. I don't do anything the first three turns and he show and tells Progenitus, and I don't find Liliana or Humility.
Game 3: I keep a hand with Inquisition, Humility, Confidant and lands. He show and tells, and puts Emrakul in play while I obviously put down Humility. Then I surgical his show and tell and see that he doesn't run any card to destroy my Humility, so I win.
2-1
(2-1-1)

Round 5: MUD
Game 1: He mulls and I start with turn 1/2 discard to get his entire hand. Get sorin to 6 when he has 3 artifacts including the one where you can sac 3 artifacts to find one in your library and put it into play. He finds the one where your life total can't change (I'm sorry I don't know the names of the cards :P) and I almost lose, but I get Jitte to 10 counters just in time, because he also had Blightsteel Colossus. I give his guy -8/-8 and get in for lethal.
Game 2: Keep a hand with discard and 2 path to exile, but he starts with turn 1 chalice and after that I can't do anything noteworthy.
Game 3: Long game but I'm able to mana screw him and at one point I I had Liliana on 6, but he lands a revoker and has Lightning greaves. he takes 3 turns to destroy Liliana when I find Sorin. I have 2 Path to Exile in hand and he plays a second revoker on Sorin. Then he tries to equip his Greaves to the other Revoker. In response I kill it, and when he tries to equip back I kill the other one. Turn after that I topdeck Liliana and win easily.
2-1
(3-1-1)
So win the next one and I'm in top 8

Round 6: Miracles (I dreaded this match up since I've never played against it and it seems very tough to play against)
Game 1: I mull once and have to keep a marginal 6. He starts with top. my turn 1 nothing, After that I start resolving 2 Confidants, but he finds 2 plows in a row. Then he proceeds to counter most of my stuff. After a while I do get a couple of tokens and Stoneforge in play but he finds Terminus and then resolves Jace. I keep trying to fight my way out but it's no use. I scoop when he has 5 cards in hand, Jace and countertop active in play to not waste more time.
Game 2: This game was more exciting. He has a turn 2 top, but I got a Bitterblossom for which he had no answer, Then I resolve Sorin and the game looks to be in my favor, but he finds a Terminus and plays Jace. Then he finds a way to stall my attacks for long enough to protect his Jace and when he gets Entreat the Angels at my end of turn for a lot, he can get me for lethal.
0-2
(3-2-1)

So unfortunately I didn't make top 8 but I do still really like the deck. The only issue I have with the deck is that while it has a lot of favorable match ups, more controllish decks seem to be really tough especially once they resolve Jace. I think I'll add a couple of Needles to the board to counter Top, Jace and Deed, because Miracles seems to be indeed a very tough match and the deck is so much worse when they don't have Top. Do you guys have any other tips to beat these decks besides not to overextend?

[Rizso]

Did you get to use your Vindicate at all?

Can you please post your board.

[Sentient6]

Thank you for your feedback. Following your suggestions I would make these changes:

- 1 Serra Avenger
- 4 Thoughtseize/Inquisition
- 2 Liliana
+ 1 Mom
+ 3 Thalia
+ 3 Revoker

I want to try Souls in the deck before I decide if I want to cut it. Considering running discard in the sideboard: Wouldn't it be the best to run Duress since I'd mainly board it vs combo I think?

[Aadz0r]

Did you get to use your Vindicate at all?

Can you please post your board.

My board was:
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Disenchant
2x Humility
3x Path to Exile
3x Surgical Extraction
2x Relic of Progenitus
3x Mindbreak Trap

Usually there are no Traps in the board, but I already knew there would be quite some combo and during testing I found that discard + Mindbreak Trap = pretty positive match up, so that's why I included 3. I expected quite some aggro decks, because last time the field was pretty soft and a lot of people ran homebrew decks, so I figured 3 Path to Exile would be fine against random aggro decks. I was wrong on that, there were more controllish decks, but it still came in useful vs RUG Delver. Relic and Surgicals are my usual graveyard hate. I also expected quite some Show and Tell decks so that's why there are 2 Humility and 1 Oblivion Ring.

I was quite happy with the board, had something for just about every matchup. I'll just get a couple of Pithing Needles in there instead of the Traps.

The only card we need Vindicate against is basically Jace, and something like Lingering Souls or Elspeth would be at least as good. The two times I tried to use Vindicate it was countered, and I can see why you removed it entirely. I think I'll follow your example and replace it with Elspeth.


@Sentient6: Duress is fine for the board altough I prefer Thoughtseize to get rid of fatties in decks like Sneaky Show, but I doubt it'll matter that much. Let me know how the deck is working out. I was also wondering how the vial build would do in this meta, but because of the succes I've been having with the Token build I'm hesitant to switch back.

[Sentient6]

Sure, once I got all the cards I need and got some practice I will take it to some local tournaments and see how it goes. Till then I will have to use my UWr Stoneblade :)

[Rizso]

Did go 2-1-1 in weekly legacy. While not being the best score i did get to play against some new decks.

Just gonna write very short about each match

First match UW-Miracle
This one lasts for at least 35+ min of the 40 min round. Battle of the stoneforges. bitterblossom tokens chumps a clique with batterskull equiped so my liliana can stay alive. I draw the wasteland i waste his karakas then force him to sac his ultron clique then i swing with my batterskull. And he scoops then its time like 2 mins later.

1-0

match 2 vs storm with cunning wish for adnaus
I start with seize taking the tutor knowing he got a wish. He play ponder i play bob he goes preordrain into ponder into cunning wish sacing led playing adnaus from the board. I die.
Game 2 I naked cabal therapy saying tutor, seeing 2x led, petal cabal ritaul delta and strand. He top decks infernal tutor and goes off. I respond to his tutor surgical extracting his leds. He resolves adnaus and goes down to 3 into a illgotengains taking tutor, dark ritual dark ritual on the gains and search for tendrils and i die.
0-2 Shit happends

Game 3 Enchantress. I Know his deck is slow really slow so i keep me 3 cabal therapy, 1 wasteland, 1 thoughtseize, liliana, Lingering souls on a the draw. He starts with nonebasic land into a land aura. I draw a none land and waste his land. We both misses our next land dropp.. He draws land i dont. for a very many turns. i scopp as he starts to get angels.
I rip his hand into pieces kills his argothian with liliana while beating with bob and tokens.
He mulls to 3 He starts land go. I go mox removing a black card into thoughtseize taking his only none landcard and play wasteland. Then wasteland his none basic land and play bob. Game over he never gets to play magic.

UW- miracle
First game is a solid 30min or so. Its really back and forth he resolves jace i resolve a elspeth while he manages to keep the elspeth from killing jace i resolve a liliana and ultimates her spliting the piles into 1 jace, 1 polluted delta plains vs 5 island 2 tops. He picks the jace pile He draws an other fetch I put into a play a token He miracles for an angel. I +3/+3 my guy attacking his jace he chumps with his angel i resolve a sorin. He then scopps. Durring this match Waste fetch as i felt the fetchland there was just to powerful to remain as he can filter away with jace. After the match he revealed to me he had setup to be able to play a elspeth and a miracle that where on top durring that time. Forcing him to shuffle them both away.
Game 2 He go island top, I go fetchland geting swamp. He goes counterbalance. I go land chrome mox. He reveals a brainstorm. This is where I think i did wrong Instead of resolving a bitterblossom I had in my hand I desided to resolve a Liliana. My thought at that time was i wanted to ultimated her. Next turn tick her up to 5 he discards brainstorm then play snapcaster and flashbacks that brainstorm. then taking my liliana down to 3. I then resolve a sorin makes a guy and kill his snapcaster with the liliana and he goes eot miracle for 2 angels and attack killing my 2 walkers. I play lingering souls. He resolves stoneforge. I scoop without knowing the time remaining as it was pretty much a hopeless sitaution with skull, 2 angels and stoneforge on the board with top and a counterbalance all i had where a couple of 1/1 spirits. Next game i rip his hand apart but time gets called and its a draw.

My conclusion about uw miracle is: Im not gonna put in any addictional cards in my board for the deck. Why? The deck is just way way to slow. As long as you dont face it match 1 or 2 the chance of facing it goes down alot. The deck just draws to much. The maindeck is already quite powerful against the deck, planeswalkers, lingering souls and bitterblossoms are really strong against the deck. As long as you win the first game. Then its probly going to time short after. I have my 2 seal of cleansings, 1 Oblivion Ring, 4 Surgical, 1 Elspeth, 1 Thoughtseize I can Bring in.

As for the storm decks. As long as they arent going off on t1 or 2 through discard effects the matchups is very much winnable even without traps, canonist. Canonists doesnt do that much really, without mother of runes they will just bounce it then kill you or wish then kill it then kill you.

Deck change was phyrexian Tower changed to an extra swamp going upto 3 swamps. Changing a stoneforge mystic to a thoughtseize. Going down to 3 stoneforges maindeck and up to 3 maindecked thoughtseize with 1 in the board. Board change was a thoughseize into a Torpor Orb. Torpor Orb is for the goblin matchup its neutralizes their most powerful cards, goblin ringleader, matron, seigegang commander, scrapper and marshals. As well it shuts down snapcasters, cliques, stoneforges, topterfoundry with more!

[gpowerone]

My take on this deck is in a slightly different direction. I really like the power level of Etched Champion and the fact that some B/W confidant builds already run a lot of artifacts makes me want to go in that direction:

4x Thoughtseize
2x Aether Vial
3x Nihil Spellbomb
3x Sensei's Divining Top

3x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Dark Confidant
4x Ethersworn Canonist
4x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Fiend Hunter
4x Etched Champion

2x Oblivion Ring
1x Cranial Plating
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Batterskull

4x Scrubland
4x Marsh Flats
4x Vault of Whispers
2x Ancient Den
4x Cavern of Souls
1x Swamp
3x Wasteland
1x Mox Opal

27 artifacts including artifact lands and Mox Opals. Champion + Plating gives the deck a very fast end-game clock. Exact numbers are debatable. Not sure about 4 Revokers and only 3 Bobs/Mystics. You really need an answer for Engineered Explosives though, or it means GG.

The deck is oriented towards Humans/Soldiers, making the Caverns very relevant. Being able to resolve Canonist/Bob through counter magic can win games if the opponent is relying too heavily on Force or Spell Snare. Cavern also makes Champion into an almost invulnerable threat.

There are some other interesting choices, such as the spellbombs. They really help G1 versus the graveyard matchups and Maverick. Debated Jotun Grunt, but spellbomb is an artifact with neutral card advantage.

Not sure about the sideboard totally, but this is what I am thinking:

2x Oblivion Ring
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Enlightened Tutor
3x Faerie Macabre
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Wasteland
1x Karakas

Anybody else doing something like this?

[Rizso]

I do see where you are going with that build. Stoneforge isnt as importat in that build it could still use an extra dark confidant. Batterskull doesnt really fit into the deck either so could remove skull some stoneforges get more Cranial platings and bobs. But imo the deck feels like a affinity deck without the good blue card.

EE doesnt take your lands but still need the revokers for thoes deeds if they are played. Not having swords to plowshares feels wrong as well or even dispatch as its more heavy on artifacts. If still going that route then its gonna need some more tuning. It should probly run 4 vials as well.

A card Im actually thinking of testing out is Cursed Scroll. This ancient relic synergieses with the Lilianas and chrome mox with them lowering my own handsize. Able to kill active mother of runes, Flibbed delver, Clique, Many of mavericks creatures, pinging walkers, a threat that wont be miracled away or flash creatures cant take down. It also makes you able to use your mana when you get flooded and when you are in topdeck mode. Cursed Scroll used to be Deadguy staple once and might be worth trying out again. The speed of the format is quite slow atm and slow cards like walkers and scroll seem perfect.

[gpowerone]

Good points Rizso. I never really was sure about Batterskull and always wanted to play more Platings. I like Cursed Scroll a lot too, since this deck sometimes floods, especially on discard-heavy hands. I'm not sure about the Tops - this deck just might be too aggro for them. Perhaps I will try some scrolls. I want to runs Swords to Plowshares/Dispatch but didn't find room. Still think Stoneforge is too good not to play, especially with the ability to fetch and sneak in Plating. (with Stoneforge it is possible to play an uncounterable plating and equip all at instant speed).


But imo the deck feels like a affinity deck without the good blue card.


I actually built this deck after thinking that Thalia and Bob would be ideal cards to play in Affinity in addition to Canonist (which is one of Affinity's best outs to combo). IMO, Thoughtcast is only good in the heavy-aggro versions of that deck, whereas this B/w Confidant build is more midrange. I like black in Affinity-type builds also because the disruption package helps the deck significantly in unfair matchups.

[Rizso]

Went 3 - 1, won against esper-blade, burn and merfolk but lost to the same maverick player as last time i faced maverick. The maverick deck isnt just a normal he runs captain sisay with legendary package and mained decked phyrexian Revokers.

As for changes to the 75 im thinking of adding more anti maverick cards, the maindeck is pretty strong against most other none-dredge / combo decks.

As for the matchups:
Discard effects are really strong against the deck same with bitterblossom and lingering souls. Not much more is needed. The seal of cleansings, torpor orb, jitte and thoughtseize gets boarded in. What gets boarded out really depends on how the esper deck loooks like.

Burn: not the hardest matchup its all about surviving their first 7 card hand. Discard spells are strong against the deck in the start of the game. Bringing in extra jitte, timely reinforcement and maybe seal of cleansing as they might bring in the anti lifegain enchantment. Planeswalkers do alot against burn especially liliana and sorin.

Merfolk: A strong deck against decks with islands but no islands in the deck and its packed with removal and chumpers from tokens. Not a deck that will change my board change directly from.

Maverick: This deck has as much threats as a deck can be filled with. And most threats arent just normal vanilia creatures but all hatebears and distruptive. The deck isnt hyperfast but it will severly punish lose keeps. I am gonna put more anti maverick cards in the board like +2 cards. And the card im looking atm is the Card Dystopia.

[Esper3k]

Went 3 - 1, won against esper-blade, burn and merfolk but lost to the same maverick player as last time i faced maverick. The maverick deck isnt just a normal he runs captain sisay with legendary package and mained decked phyrexian Revokers.

As for changes to the 75 im thinking of adding more anti maverick cards, the maindeck is pretty strong against most other none-dredge / combo decks.

As for the matchups:
Discard effects are really strong against the deck same with bitterblossom and lingering souls. Not much more is needed. The seal of cleansings, torpor orb, jitte and thoughtseize gets boarded in. What gets boarded out really depends on how the esper deck loooks like.

Burn: not the hardest matchup its all about surviving their first 7 card hand. Discard spells are strong against the deck in the start of the game. Bringing in extra jitte, timely reinforcement and maybe seal of cleansing as they might bring in the anti lifegain enchantment. Planeswalkers do alot against burn especially liliana and sorin.

Merfolk: A strong deck against decks with islands but no islands in the deck and its packed with removal and chumpers from tokens. Not a deck that will change my board change directly from.

Maverick: This deck has as much threats as a deck can be filled with. And most threats arent just normal vanilia creatures but all hatebears and distruptive. The deck isnt hyperfast but it will severly punish lose keeps. I am gonna put more anti maverick cards in the board like +2 cards. And the card im looking atm is the Card Dystopia.

If you're not running Perish, I'd recommend that against Maverick over Dystopia simply because Perish will be completely onesided whereas Dystopia can hurt you as well.

[Rizso]

Im gonna run both. Dystopia can kill Garruk / elspeth unlike perish. Also Dystopia does have a upkeep that doesnt have to be paid and the enchantment will be gone if needed to resolve a white permanent.

Added my 4th copy of Thoughseize to the main now and going down to 3 Bitterblossoms.
Cards that gets boarded in alot should probly be maindecked while cards that get boarded out alot should probly not be in the maindeck. Reason to go down in bitterblossoms while the card is really great its not good in numbers and its way harder for most decks to remove then other cards.

Deck with current tuning:
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
4 Lingering souls
3 Bitterblossom
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Zealous Persecution

3 Chrome Mox
3 Swamps
1 Plains
1 Fetid Heath
4 wasteland
4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
2 Polluted Delta - Has won me a match where I got mana screwed and only played delta into swamp thoughtseize and he thought i was playing storm and he boarded in antistorm cards.

Sideboard
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Seal of Cleansing
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Humility
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Perish
2 Dystopia

They board is pretty anti maverick atm But really anti storm cards wont do much against them and will hope that the 10 maindecked 1cc discard spells will slow them down enought then able to surgical extract them out of the game. As for dredge its just a bad matchup and even if i had 8+ cards against it would still be a bad matchup. Hope against dredge is cabal therapy exiling bridges, surgical important targets and swording their ichordids, moebas or bloodghasts or stoneforge for skull / jitte, Skull bouncing exiles bridges wich is nice.

[eirirlar]

1 Ancient Tomb
1 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
2 Polluted Delta
3 Rishadan Port
4 Scrubland
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
4 Aether Vial
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Aven Mindcensor
3 Mangara of Corondor
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
3 Vindicate
2 Nether Void
1 Batterskull


Could someone please post some opinions on this decklist?

[Valech]

1 Ancient Tomb
1 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
2 Polluted Delta
3 Rishadan Port
4 Scrubland
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
4 Aether Vial
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Aven Mindcensor
3 Mangara of Corondor
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
3 Vindicate
2 Nether Void
1 Batterskull


Could someone please post some opinions on this decklist?

Hi,
Your deck seems a bit mixed up to me. There are several cardchoices I do not understand.
First of all, Aether Vial indicated, that you wish to play the vial variant of DGA. Charactaristical for that variant is a high amount of creatures with the same CMC and neat enter-the-battlefield abilities. Common choices are Serra Avenger, Jötun grunt, Tidehollow Sculler, Stoneforge Mystic, Dark Confidant, Thalia and Phyrexian Revoker. Furthermore you often see a Playset of Mother of Runes in those builds.
Mangara and Mindcensor do not support that plan of throwing quickly some hatebears in your opponent´s face. They raise the manacurve or, in the best case, force you to add a counter on your vial.
Then, why not a full playset of Confidant? He´s amazing and should be cut last. next point would be the monstrous stoneforge package. 2 swords, a batterskull and a jitte? If you want to dig that deep in such a toolbox at least 4 Mystics are needed. Or cut those swords (the equippment, not the instant); that would be my plan. Those three tiny inquisitions do look a bit random. Beside your scullers, nothing supports your discard-disruption plan.
Your manabase looks strange, too, starting with Rishidan port. Together with wasteland and ancient tomb you have 8 lands, which won´t porduce any colored mana. Not to speak of cavern of souls, which is even more irritating, because most of your creatures dont share a type. You will ideally cast those creatures via vial anyway, which makes them uncounterable. Karakas is a fine card. But three of them? You will draw in every midgame-duel at least 2. A dead card for your. Last but not least I don´t see any basics in your board. Recurring Wastelands will simply make you lose the game.
I think the idea behind Nether Void is to prevent opponents from recovering, while you play your beaters via vial. I also think, that the one off Tomb is for accelerating that plan. All in all that seems to be a slick idea, but it won´t work in most of games. Either it will be too slow (only 1 Mana accelerator) or your void will simply get a counter/removal to its face.

So, my suggestion:
- 2 Karakas
- 3 Rishidan port
- 3 Mangara of Condor
- 2 Aven Mindcensor
- 2 Nethervoid
- 1 Ancient Tomb

+ 1 Dark Confidant
+ 1 Stoneforge Mystic
+ x Phyrexian Revokers

The rest is up to you.

[eirirlar]

Hi,
Your deck seems a bit mixed up to me. There are several cardchoices I do not understand.
First of all, Aether Vial indicated, that you wish to play the vial variant of DGA. Charactaristical for that variant is a high amount of creatures with the same CMC and neat enter-the-battlefield abilities. Common choices are Serra Avenger, Jötun grunt, Tidehollow Sculler, Stoneforge Mystic, Dark Confidant, Thalia and Phyrexian Revoker. Furthermore you often see a Playset of Mother of Runes in those builds.
Mangara and Mindcensor do not support that plan of throwing quickly some hatebears in your opponent´s face. They raise the manacurve or, in the best case, force you to add a counter on your vial.
Then, why not a full playset of Confidant? He´s amazing and should be cut last. next point would be the monstrous stoneforge package. 2 swords, a batterskull and a jitte? If you want to dig that deep in such a toolbox at least 4 Mystics are needed. Or cut those swords (the equippment, not the instant); that would be my plan. Those three tiny inquisitions do look a bit random. Beside your scullers, nothing supports your discard-disruption plan.
Your manabase looks strange, too, starting with Rishidan port. Together with wasteland and ancient tomb you have 8 lands, which won´t porduce any colored mana. Not to speak of cavern of souls, which is even more irritating, because most of your creatures dont share a type. You will ideally cast those creatures via vial anyway, which makes them uncounterable. Karakas is a fine card. But three of them? You will draw in every midgame-duel at least 2. A dead card for your. Last but not least I don´t see any basics in your board. Recurring Wastelands will simply make you lose the game.
I think the idea behind Nether Void is to prevent opponents from recovering, while you play your beaters via vial. I also think, that the one off Tomb is for accelerating that plan. All in all that seems to be a slick idea, but it won´t work in most of games. Either it will be too slow (only 1 Mana accelerator) or your void will simply get a counter/removal to its face.

So, my suggestion:
- 2 Karakas
- 3 Rishidan port
- 3 Mangara of Condor
- 2 Aven Mindcensor
- 2 Nethervoid
- 1 Ancient Tomb

+ 1 Dark Confidant
+ 1 Stoneforge Mystic
+ x Phyrexian Revokers

The rest is up to you.

Thanks for the feedback.

I've incorporated some of your advice in a new decklist:

1 Ancient Tomb
3 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
2 Polluted Delta
3 Rishadan Port
4 Scrubland
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
4 Aether Vial
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Mangara of Corondor
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Vindicate
2 Nether Void
1 Batterskull


Mindcensors were removed because of the casting cost mismatch.

Number of equipment reduced to 2. Number of Stoneforge Mystics increased to 4.

Dark Confidant increased to 4.

Increased number of Inquisition of Kozilek to 4, and number of Tidehollow Scullers to 3. The main thing with these is to rip away low casting cost spells from opponents hand while he's under pressure from Wasteland/Port/Vindicate/Mangara/Thalia and eventually Nether Void.

Decided to stick with the 3 Ports, because:
- While it's true that they disrupt the manabase, it is partially countered by low dependency on colored mana (Aether Vial, mostly W or B + 0 or 1 casting cost spells).
- In the first few rounds of the game, while waiting for Aether Vial to grow counters or getting enough lands for Vindicate/Mangara, the Port stalls the opponent.
- Under Nether Void, when I don't need the mana from my lands so much anymore, they're good.
- I don't go for 4 ports because while it's really nice to have in the opening hand, it's not so good to have 2 on the opening hand.

You guessed right on the Nether Void and Tomb. Removal and counterspells is partially countered by tapping his lands with Port the turn before playing it, and having Thalia in play. Once Nether Void is online, i have at least one creature in play and it should be really hard for the opponent to get out of that lock. I included only 1 Tomb because they disrupt the mana balance a lot.

Karakas is not so good to draw multiples of, that's true. But it's really good with Mangara. To have any hope at all of getting the combo online i believe I need at least 3 of each (winning Death and Taxes decks plays 4 of each). I agree that Mangara has an off casting cost, but usually the Vial has already done it's job for one CC 2 creature. If I have another CC 2 creature in my hand or draw into another one, I can hard-cast it. Or maybe I even draw another Vial, I have 4.

Regarding Cavern of Souls, agreed. It's utility does not outweight the situations where it's just annoying.

Basic lands: the plan is to apply pressure on the opponents manabase so much that they don't get a waste-lock online. While this will not always work, I believe it will work sufficiently often.

Comments still appreciated :)

[Wilkin]

Thanks for the feedback.

I've incorporated some of your advice in a new decklist:

1 Ancient Tomb
3 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
2 Polluted Delta
3 Rishadan Port
4 Scrubland
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
4 Aether Vial
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Mangara of Corondor
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Vindicate
2 Nether Void
1 Batterskull


Mindcensors were removed because of the casting cost mismatch.

Number of equipment reduced to 2. Number of Stoneforge Mystics increased to 4.

Dark Confidant increased to 4.

Increased number of Inquisition of Kozilek to 4, and number of Tidehollow Scullers to 3. The main thing with these is to rip away low casting cost spells from opponents hand while he's under pressure from Wasteland/Port/Vindicate/Mangara/Thalia and eventually Nether Void.

Decided to stick with the 3 Ports, because:
- While it's true that they disrupt the manabase, it is partially countered by low dependency on colored mana (Aether Vial, mostly W or B + 0 or 1 casting cost spells).
- In the first few rounds of the game, while waiting for Aether Vial to grow counters or getting enough lands for Vindicate/Mangara, the Port stalls the opponent.
- Under Nether Void, when I don't need the mana from my lands so much anymore, they're good.
- I don't go for 4 ports because while it's really nice to have in the opening hand, it's not so good to have 2 on the opening hand.

You guessed right on the Nether Void and Tomb. Removal and counterspells is partially countered by tapping his lands with Port the turn before playing it, and having Thalia in play. Once Nether Void is online, i have at least one creature in play and it should be really hard for the opponent to get out of that lock. I included only 1 Tomb because they disrupt the mana balance a lot.

Karakas is not so good to draw multiples of, that's true. But it's really good with Mangara. To have any hope at all of getting the combo online i believe I need at least 3 of each (winning Death and Taxes decks plays 4 of each). I agree that Mangara has an off casting cost, but usually the Vial has already done it's job for one CC 2 creature. If I have another CC 2 creature in my hand or draw into another one, I can hard-cast it. Or maybe I even draw another Vial, I have 4.

Regarding Cavern of Souls, agreed. It's utility does not outweight the situations where it's just annoying.

Basic lands: the plan is to apply pressure on the opponents manabase so much that they don't get a waste-lock online. While this will not always work, I believe it will work sufficiently often.

Comments still appreciated :)

Your list is more like Death and Taxes than Deadguy.
-17 creatures is a bit low for a Aether Vial deck. Look at Goblins, Merfolk or D+T. They run more than 20. I think Goblins is close to 30.
-No Basics is a bit scary. I would try and fit in at least 1 plains and 1 swamp.
-While Vindicate and NEther Void are great cards...you run 3 Thalia and only 22 land (6 fetches). I used to run Thalia in my board...and I found that while it hard my opponent, it sometimes hurt me just as much.
-I understand the 3 Karakas in there. That's fine.

So I'd cut the 2 Nether Void and 3 Vindicate and put in say 2 Jotun Grunt, 1 Tidehollow Sculler and 2 Serra Avenger.
-I'd cut the Ancient Tomb and a Fetch for a basic plains and swamp
-That way your Thalia isn't going to hurt you at all. The Ancient Tomb was interesting but since most of you deck is coloured spells, I don't feel the need for it, plus you already have 4 wasteland and 3 Port.

[Valech]

Hi everyone,
first of all, im currently running the following list:

4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Lingering Souls
4 Bitterblossom

3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughseize
4 Cabal therapy

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa´s Jitte
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
3 Intangible Virtue

3 Chrome Mox
4 Marsh Flats
2 polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
1 Plains
1 Fetid Heath
4 Scrubland
3 Swamp


Sideboard:
2 Timely Reinforcement
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Leyline of the void
3 Extirpate
3 Pithing Needle
1 Umezawas Jitte


With this list I have participated in a local, small Tournament and want to share my notes.

Round 1 against generic Guy with Goblins.
Never saw that guy here around, neither did others I know in that store. He later told me he´s only visiting his Aunt and took the chance to play his deck in unknown terrain.
Anyway, G1 he seems to hold a bad hand, cause he neither dropped Vial/Lackey T1 nor dropped a second land on T2. No friend of mulligan I see. I get some buisness but he stabilizes around 5 Life. We both build up a pretty slick army soon, then I draw a second Virtue, emblem with Sorin, Swords to one of his Lords and simply overrun him. GG.
G2 he boards like eight cards and drops Vial T1. I board Timely Reinforcements cause i tend to drop pretty low against goblins usually and won´t trust in a lucky start again. I make him discard a lackey, get online a Liliana via Chrome Mox T2. Cause no bigger threat is on his side of the field, I +1 her and discard Lingering Souls. He discards a Mountain. I flashback Lingering Souls and play Mystic Turn 3. I dig for Jitte and attack T4 with and equipped spirit token. Quite a perfect start, he won´t stabilize and I take the first win.
Afterwards he told me, that he hadn´t any sideboardcards against me, so he simply acted like he changed cards. Don´t know if thats somehow not legal, but I fell for it and laughed. Psychological warfare.

Round 2 against Michael with Dredge
First of all, I can´t decide if I hate Dredge more than I like Michael or vise versa. He´s a nice guy (with seemingly a huge purse, owns several Legacy Decks with each having Sets of Duals for their own) and a competent player. Never saw him playing dredge thou.
So, G1 I don´t know what im up against. I hold a hand with two Cabal Therapy but I don´t like blind shots against decks I dont know. Not much to say here, after I realize what he is doing T2 ge quickly overruns me with a zombie horde. GG
G2 I board all of the Leylines and Reinforcements. I board out the two thoughseize and three cabal therapy. I´m never sure what to take out against Michael, cause it strangely seems like I am always missing the cards I board away. Anyway, I hold a lucky hand with 2 leylines and he ain´t seeing land that game. Nothing special to mention here, he simply doesn´t find an answer.
G3 he boards some Graveyard-hate-hate (I guess) and I start with an okay hand but no leylines. He starts with an mediocre hand as well it seems, cause it takes him surprisingly long to get going. T4 I draw a Leyline which I am luckily able to play. Seems gamebreaking, cause I can handle the few threats with Swords and liliana. My tokens make the race.

Round 3, last one already, against Sarah with Combo Elve. Don´t ask me how she came that far, i asked her and even she didn´t know.
I knew what she was playing through some other player´s irritated verbal outbursts when they faced her but I never played against Combo elve and hardly knew the mechanics.
G1 she simply goes off T2 with emrakul and concordant crossroads. No deck to get distracted against. That was scary and quick.
G2 I boarded my beloved canonists, my Needles and my Extirpates. And indeed I was able to drop Canonist T1 with Mox. Not much to say after that point. She dropped some elves for stalling i guess but to some point i equipped a flyer with jitte and batterskull and well... got revenge for g1.
G3 almost ended with a timeout. G2 seemed to be longer than it felt. I didn´t see any canonists the whole game, but i managed to make her discard a glimpse of nature. then I needled that "tap three untapped elves" guy and, gamewinningly, I Extirpated her glimpse T5. Win. GG. Dance hard techno.

After all I left the store as the winner, what doesn´t make me freak out much considering it´s only a very small local thing. I know, that maverick and Miracle decks were out there, but I seem to have missed them. Don´t know if that was my luck, but I would have loved to see Miracle cause I never played against it.

Some thoughts in the end. Timely Reinforcements is a monster. I would have simply ignored that card if it wasn´t mentioned here. Thanks for that. Intangible Virtue was a great card when I played it. Of course Zealous Persecution would have probably done it against Gobbos as well, but the option to attack AND chumpblock next turn is very neat to my eyes. Did I mention, that Virtue is a permanent?
last but not least, cutting Hymn and Vindicate was a good idea. They slowered the deck and despite of their possible great impact on the game I don´t see them return soon to dga.

Sorry for my english, and I hope I´ll find out soon how to tag cards^^

[Wilkin]

Made top 8 in a 39 man tournament in Mississauaga, Ontario. It's called Untouchables.

Will be posting on the Tournament report part of the forum. Went 4W-1L and 2 draws.

Gatekeepers and Cabal Therapy were insanely good today.

[rei4u2005]

Hi I need help. I am a B/W player and in desperate need to beat a splash goblin deck (R/b/g). Is there any good sideboard to beat this annoying goblin deck ?

Currently his goblin deck is like this

4 Aether Vial

Creatures
4 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Mogg War Marshal
3 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

Tribal Sorceries
1 Warren Weirding

Basic Lands
4 Mountain

Lands
3 Arid Mesa
2 Badlands
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga

Sideboard:
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pyroblast
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip
2 Perish
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Skirk Prospector

Is there any suggestion ?

My deck is
4 StP
3 Zealous Persecution
4 Lingering Souls
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize

4 Dark Confidant
4 Stone Forge Mystic
3 Thalia Guardian of Thraben
2 Tombs Stalker

3 Liliana of the Veil

2 Umezawa Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sensei Divining Top

2 Scrubland
2 Plains
4 Swamp
4 Marsh Flat
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Arid Mesa
4 Wasteland

My Sideboard
2 Perish
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Timely Reinforcements
1 Serenity
1 Cop Red
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Engineered Explosion
1 Oblivion Ring

My current meta is Aggro everywhere

[conley1000000]

Hi I need help. I am a B/W player and in desperate need to beat a splash goblin deck (R/b/g). Is there any good sideboard to beat this annoying goblin deck ?

Currently his goblin deck is like this

4 Aether Vial

Creatures
4 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Mogg War Marshal
3 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

Tribal Sorceries
1 Warren Weirding

Basic Lands
4 Mountain

Lands
3 Arid Mesa
2 Badlands
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga

Sideboard:
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pyroblast
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip
2 Perish
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Skirk Prospector

Is there any suggestion ?

My deck is
4 StP
3 Zealous Persecution
4 Lingering Souls
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize

4 Dark Confidant
4 Stone Forge Mystic
3 Thalia Guardian of Thraben
2 Tombs Stalker

3 Liliana of the Veil

2 Umezawa Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sensei Divining Top

2 Scrubland
2 Plains
4 Swamp
4 Marsh Flat
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Arid Mesa
4 Wasteland

My Sideboard
2 Perish
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Timely Reinforcements
1 Serenity
1 Cop Red
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Engineered Explosion
1 Oblivion Ring

My current meta is Aggro everywhere

Enlightened Tutor likes to look for Engineered Plague?

[rei4u2005]

Well for Engineered Plague, the Goblin deck need at least 2 Engineered Plague to be really sealed the battlefield and The Krosan Grip because of the Instant and split second kill the active jitte and Engineered Plague and the moment the goblin is free right in an instant he do a combo goblin haste to kill me off (especially the pile driver for insane damage)

[conley1000000]

Have you tried Burrenton(spelling?) Forge-Tender?

[conley1000000]

And I'm not convinced you would need multiple plagues on board as you have 3 ZP in your main, that plus plague should wipe the board?

[rei4u2005]

Well Yes I do have tried it but I to gotten kill in the next turn because of the overwhelming goblin on the play. That's why i tried to switch to Timely Reinforcement to get a extra life and token to chump block but with sharpshooter around it still tough

"And I'm not convinced you would need multiple plagues on board as you have 3 ZP in your main, that plus plague should wipe the board?" Hmm you got a point there I really never tried the E. Plague with zealous as backup

[Asthereal]

Burrenton Forge-Tender is a nice option indeed. Try three of those.
Also, one Engineered Plague instead of the Zealous Persecution should help.

For the main, I would suggest -1 Jitte, +1 Sword of Fire and Ice.
Equipments are usually too slow against goblins anyway, so if you have the time to set one up, SoFaI will seal the win more quickly, killing guys and drawing into more removal.

I don't really see why the Zealous Persecution would be all that good anyway, even though they are quite strong against Goblins. Perhaps Disfigure would be okay in their place. The trick is to prevent Goblins from running rampage with Lackey/Instigator. The rest is actually not that fast, it just comes in great numbers. Disfigure is another way to blow up Lackeys turn one.


Last suggestion: Infest works like a Wrath of God for only three mana against Goblins. Also Infest is pretty strong against Elves, Maverick. Perhaps -2 Perish, +2 Infest? Swords to Plowshares will take care of the remaining creatures that suvive Infest anyway.

[nedleeds]

Pretty sure Infest is a great card to play against Deaduy Ale.

[conley1000000]

Zealous Persecution is really good vs decks like elves, goblins and maverick early(mom cant protect herself against it), really stellar against unflipped delvers and non thresholded mongeese. Its really awesome combat math blowout with lingering souls tokens. No its not the best removal but it works two ways by pumping your things as well. It shines really good in the Chrome Mox version where you can imprint it for access to either color...

[Asthereal]

Pretty sure Infest is a great card to play against Deaduy Ale.
Timing is everything. Goblins/Maverick/Elves play some dudes while you Top and Hymn/Seize them. Then you blow up their board with Infest, and the turn after go SFM > Batterskull. Next game? :cool:

I can see why Zealous Persecution could work, but it feels suboptimal to me. Then again, I'm not really an expert Modern Pikula player. :tongue:

[Baldo]

Try to add this in you SB,

2x Phyrexian Crusader
2x Darkblast

i been using phyrexian crusader in my SB and it win the game vs goblin and UR delvers, the protection from red and first trike is the best control vs goblins..

[rei4u2005]

@Asthereal
I'm still prefer 2 Perish and add 2 Infest because in my current meta there still roaming Maverik and Elves. Heck sometime I face 2 deck burn and 2 Merfolk. Hmm I'll try to MB the SoFI to replace the Jitte

@nedleeds
Yes i try to sideboard the infest

@conley1000000
Yes I agree with you 100% zealous is good against the 1 toughness utility creature deck it really kill elves I tell you. I tried the chrome mox version and I think its make the deck unstable

@Baldo
F*** it against control deck or combo deck I'll try to add 2x darkblast and 2x phyrexian crusader to beat aggro deck like Goblins thank you Baldo

[rei4u2005]

BTW what is the best card in B/W deck against U/R deck (besides phyrexian crusader) and Junk ?

[LDX]

Hi, quick question, how important are the Chrome Mox? What purpose do they serve, is it critical to have them?

[berksowl]

Hi, quick question, how important are the Chrome Mox? What purpose do they serve, is it critical to have them?

Chrome Mox is there for one reason: mana acceleration. So you can cast a first turn Dark Confidant or Stoneforge Mystic. Play two of them so you give yourself a good chance of drawing one in your opening hand. And if you don't get one in your opening hand, it's usually going to be a dead draw.

Some people play three. I'm not sure I'd do that.