[Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

[berksowl]

BTW what is the best card in B/W deck against U/R deck (besides phyrexian crusader) and Junk ?

Against RU Delver, discard spells are pretty good. Batterskull is also good, because it cannot be killed by a Lightning Bolt, and because its got Lifelink.

Junk will likely have some easy way to kill tokens (Germs, Spirits, Faeries), so Stoneforge Mystic into Jitte is a pretty solid play. Sword of Light and Shadow is also pretty good.

[Wilkin]

I still play 3 Chrome mox, although without Hymn to Tourach (my meta now has more Misdirection in it), I can see people switching to more lands.


I like being able to cast thoughtseize and a cabal therapy turn one. Turn one Bob or Mystic is alright of course but what I really like with Chrome Mox is being able to cast Liliana of the Veil turn 2. Turn 1 discard followed by turn 2 Liliana is pretty devastating against a lot of decks. Also since i personally play a bunch of 3 drops, being able to play them turn 2 is nice.

[Wilkin]

Against U/R delver, whenever I land Obliterator that's nice. lol. I usually side in more creature hate and take out some thoughtseizes and bitterblossoms. I leave in all 4 Bobs, since A. card advantage is awesome even in this matchup and B. lol, they usually kill him anyway.

Phyrexian Crusader is a bit narrow imo. Maybe another Jitte in the board or say a Timely reinforcements.


Against Junk, i side in my Relics of Progenitus making Goyf and Knight of the Reliquary more managable. And an explosives. Since they are usually creature light, I have enough creature removal to handle them.

[rei4u2005]

@Wilkin, berksowl
Thx for the suggestion guys

[Rizso]

Sadly I havent been able to play legacy for 2weeks. But U/R and burn arent a matchup im gonna devote my board much for. Running 2 Timely Reinforcements in the board and an extra jitte.

Board for me is mostly for maverick and combo. Maindeck is pretty solid against blue decks. 1cc Discard spells are quite strong against blue decks atm.

Board im running atm is:
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Seal of Cleansing
2 Timely Reinforcement
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Humility
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Perish
2 Dystopia

[Sughayyer]

Hi guys. I've been playing bw deadguy for a few weeks now (I used to play the rock), and what I like most about this deck is the sheer card advantage it provides. Right now I'm running:

3 cabal therapy
3 inquisition of kozilek
1 thoughtseize
4 swords to plowshares
3 o-ring
3 dark confidant
3 stoneforge mystic
4 lingering souls
3 bitterblossom
1 jitte
1 sword of fire & ice
1 batterskull (used to run a sword of feast and famine, but battersull proved much more useful agains merfolks and goblins)
2 liliana of the veil
1 ajani goldmane
3 zealous persecution
lands:
4 marsh flats
2 verdant catacoms
3 scrublands
1 karakas
4 wastelands
4 swamps
4 plains

on sideboard:

2 enlighteened tutor
1 pithing needle
1 conversion
1 intangible virtue
2 surgical extraction
1 extirpate
2 engineered plague
1 path to exile
3 duress
1 faerie macabre

I won 3 consecutive tournaments at my local store (meta includes omniscience, burn, esper blade, miracles, tes, merfolks, goblins, elves, affinity, reanimator and a few more that eventually show up)
what do you think of this list?

[Rizso]

first question how has the ajani goldmane been working out?
And for numbers what made you want only 3 dark confidants, 3 Bitterblossoms, 3 Stoneforge Mystics?

How have the sword of fire and ice been for you? for me it has been bit to slow.

Whats up with the conversion in the sideboard?

Maindeck Oblivion Rings? Reasons would be nice.

why so many plains but only 3 scrublands is it cos of a budget? Just asking as i have found that plains are the worst card in the deck and is pretty much only in the deck to be able to play arround wastelands.

Lastly whats your filosofi about your discard spell splits as i see you run 7 maindecked and 3 extra in the board. Whats the reason you dont max out thoughtseizes before even starting to go into duresses? Just looking at your numbers you rank therapy and IOK equal then duress then lastly thoughtseizes.

[Sughayyer]

First of all, thanks for the interest. On the answers:
ajani is great. If I have a few threats, his -1 ability devastates most opponents (more than once my opponent scoops after he sees how his ability works). His +1 is decent as well, we pay so much life playing this deck...
O-rings: these are "generic" removal, they deal with most permanents and give me a fair shot against omniscience even on g1
the ur sword: often better than batterskull (I only resorted to it due to the merfolks match, otherwise I'd still be using the bg sword).
The numbers: before batterskull, stoneforge was just a tutor for jitte/sword that I pinched to cabal therapy right after casting (I still do it often). I don't need more than 3.
Same goes for blossom, 1 on the field is enough (blossom is already brute card advantage if you think of it). It's not very easy to remove, since opponents must usually chose if they remove blossom or an equipment. I'd like to fit the 4th bob, but I don't want to give up in any of the cards on the list.
About the discard suite: cabal therapy is really fantastic, and is also a ridiculous card advantage. But I feel I need 4 pinpoint discard spells, and inquisition does that. The 1-of seize is just because it hits things IoK can't. The duresses are on the side against combo - this is a MU where I don't have enough pressure, so I must consistently disarm him while I build my board position. Conversion is there for the burn MU. CoP: red can be needled, warmth does nothing against sulfuric vortex, this card makes them scoop.

[rei4u2005]

@Sughayyer
Btw about Conversion card how you manage to 4 land drop if your opponent is faster than you lets say Burn Deck ?

[Sughayyer]

@rei4u2005
this is not a big problem in a deck that runs 7 discard spells (and at least one is going to be cast twice) and liliana. Note that there's jitte as well. Against burn I also keep ajani because of the lifegain. Post side there are the duresses too. All this deck has to do against burn is make him waste 3 cards from his hand (not hard at all) while you fetch and cast conversion.

[Wilkin]

Sword of Fire and Ice is really good for me. I used to run Light and shadow and it's not as good for me, especially since i only run 12 creatures main. Shock and draw is insane and the the amount of removal and Bitterblossom tokens around it's awesome. Also there are more Goblin and Merfolk decks around.

Conversion seems kind of bad to me. If burn is that bad, I'd rather run more Jittes or Aegis of Honor in the board. Or even a COP:red.

Yeah, I'd definitely run 4 Bobs. The card advantage he gives is nuts. As for the life loss, it's neglible. I've only lost 2 by Bob killing me in tournament play. Twice, and I almost always play Confidant. Besides, he usually gets countered or killed anyway...

[Valech]

So, what do you guys think about possible new toys from Return to Ravnica? Being out of town for quite a while I just managed to skim through the spoiler and stumbled over two cards which may be worth considering.

First of them would be Precinct Captain.
I´m not too excited about him, but he may be a solid early-drop. plays along the token-theme going around. Obvious downsides are double W, and his ability only triggering if he connects to a player. just curious what you think.

Then, when i almost lost hope for new shiny things, i saw Deathrite Shaman. I´m honestly considering splashing one or two Bayous for that guy. running seven fetchies and seven (quite expensive) walkers he would provide needed manaacceleration, especially combined with mox. Sorin could become a T2 drop. not to talk about his auto-built-in graveyard-hate abilities. he may eat up goyfs, kotrs and fuel for tombstalkers. eva green seems to like him. your thoughts?

[rei4u2005]

@Valech
For Sure We must collect this
-Sundering Growth W/G W/G (Disenchant then populate the token nice)
-Judge Familiar W/U (Bird with Cursecatcher ability) combo this with Thalia against another control deck for devastating effect
-Dryad Militant G/W (Exile resolve instant like brainstorm so snapcaster can not target it with 2/1 body so she can be a beater in earlier turn)
-Deathrite Shaman B/W (This guy can go for mana ramp, graveyard hate, and reach to opponent also the cc is B/G, what downsize in that ?)

And this list is for maybe we should collect
-Slitherhead (Cheap scavenge effect)
-Desecration Demon (Better than Abysmall Persecutor and a fix 4 mana than tomb's stalker with trample and 6/6 body and flying. I say this card is a nice beater for our kind of deck)
-Soul Tithe (Semi removal for non-land permanent with high CC)
-Phantom General (Our token King +1/+1 to all token we control)
-Rest In Peace (Leyline of the void with cheap mana cost 1W)
-Rootborn Defense (Engginered explosive with zero counter ? sure I dare you to crack it and than BAM our token is indestructible and we gain another token nice huh)

Well for Sorin Markov in T2 I don't count on it. Too many card dependent

[Rizso]

@Valech
For Sure We must collect this
-Sundering Growth W/G W/G (Disenchant then populate the token nice)
-Judge Familiar W/U (Bird with Cursecatcher ability) combo this with Thalia against another control deck for devastating effect
-Dryad Militant G/W (Exile resolve instant like brainstorm so snapcaster can not target it with 2/1 body so she can be a beater in earlier turn)
-Deathrite Shaman B/W (This guy can go for mana ramp, graveyard hate, and reach to opponent also the cc is B/G, what downsize in that ?)

And this list is for maybe we should collect
-Slitherhead (Cheap scavenge effect)
-Desecration Demon (Better than Abysmall Persecutor and a fix 4 mana than tomb's stalker with trample and 6/6 body and flying. I say this card is a nice beater for our kind of deck)
-Soul Tithe (Semi removal for non-land permanent with high CC)
-Phantom General (Our token King +1/+1 to all token we control)
-Rest In Peace (Leyline of the void with cheap mana cost 1W)
-Rootborn Defense (Engginered explosive with zero counter ? sure I dare you to crack it and than BAM our token is indestructible and we gain another token nice huh)

Well for Sorin Markov in T2 I don't count on it. Too many card dependent

TBh only maindeckable card thats a bit interesting in rtr is the deathrite shaman. Maybe even worth geting a bayou into the deck just for it. Rest in peace is a very interesting sideboard card against dredge thought.

[lyracian]

@Valech
-Desecration Demon (Better than Abysmall Persecutor and a fix 4 mana than tomb's stalker with trample and 6/6 body and flying. I say this card is a nice beater for our kind of deck)

Nice summary; Desecration Demon does not have Trample though.
I will try out Sundering Growth but not sure on the WW casting cost.

[Valech]

@Valech
For Sure We must collect this
-Sundering Growth W/G W/G (Disenchant then populate the token nice)
-Judge Familiar W/U (Bird with Cursecatcher ability) combo this with Thalia against another control deck for devastating effect
-Dryad Militant G/W (Exile resolve instant like brainstorm so snapcaster can not target it with 2/1 body so she can be a beater in earlier turn)
-Deathrite Shaman B/W (This guy can go for mana ramp, graveyard hate, and reach to opponent also the cc is B/G, what downsize in that ?)

And this list is for maybe we should collect
-Slitherhead (Cheap scavenge effect)
-Desecration Demon (Better than Abysmall Persecutor and a fix 4 mana than tomb's stalker with trample and 6/6 body and flying. I say this card is a nice beater for our kind of deck)
-Soul Tithe (Semi removal for non-land permanent with high CC)
-Phantom General (Our token King +1/+1 to all token we control)
-Rest In Peace (Leyline of the void with cheap mana cost 1W)
-Rootborn Defense (Engginered explosive with zero counter ? sure I dare you to crack it and than BAM our token is indestructible and we gain another token nice huh)

Well for Sorin Markov in T2 I don't count on it. Too many card dependent



Sundering Growth: If you run disenchant in your sideboard you will probably exchange them.
judge´s familiar: not sure about him. i dont play thalia and i dont know if he fits the deckplan in any kind. we´ll see.
Dryad militant: i dont see her ability in use very often. it feels like dga is already in favor against decks running snapcaster mage. perhaps winmore.
deathrite shaman: feels like a viable maindeck choice. the downside i mentioned wasnt his cost but its g ability. i will add a bayou for him.


slitherhead: does not fit the deckplan. you may want 1 or two in early game but never in lategame. simply not gamebraking enough.
desecration demon: i dont play big clocks like abyssal, tombstalker or desecration demon. i rely more on the token-theme. i find costy walkers more helpful than clocks.
soul tithe: id rather think about abrupt decay IF i thought we needed more removal. if we cast soul tithe on a key card he will simply pay the cost. if he doesnt pay the cost its nothing more than a stp for 2 mana.
phantom general: too expensive
Rest in peace: will be my future graveyard hate.
rootborn defense: usefulness too dependant on special card constellation. too expensive for its effect.

i didnt mean sorik markov. i meant sorin, lord of innistrad.

[paladin3056]

@Valech
For Sure We must collect this
-Sundering Growth W/G W/G (Disenchant then populate the token nice)
-Judge Familiar W/U (Bird with Cursecatcher ability) combo this with Thalia against another control deck for devastating effect
-Dryad Militant G/W (Exile resolve instant like brainstorm so snapcaster can not target it with 2/1 body so she can be a beater in earlier turn)
-Deathrite Shaman B/W (This guy can go for mana ramp, graveyard hate, and reach to opponent also the cc is B/G, what downsize in that ?)

And this list is for maybe we should collect
-Slitherhead (Cheap scavenge effect)
-Desecration Demon (Better than Abysmall Persecutor and a fix 4 mana than tomb's stalker with trample and 6/6 body and flying. I say this card is a nice beater for our kind of deck)
-Soul Tithe (Semi removal for non-land permanent with high CC)
-Phantom General (Our token King +1/+1 to all token we control)
-Rest In Peace (Leyline of the void with cheap mana cost 1W)
-Rootborn Defense (Engginered explosive with zero counter ? sure I dare you to crack it and than BAM our token is indestructible and we gain another token nice huh)

Well for Sorin Markov in T2 I don't count on it. Too many card dependent

The only cards I would be considering in RTR would probably Deathrite Shaman, Abrupt Decay and Rest in Peace.

Deathrite Shaman - for its ability to hate cards currently in the meta like snapcaster, kotr, dredge, threshold etc. It would reliably improve our match ups against such deck increasing our winning percentages, which is something that this deck needs

Abrupt Decay - splashing green to get uncounterable semi vindicate/smother which hits nearly every card in the meta, nuff said

Rest in Peace - like what you said

Precinct Captain is my honorable mention which would probably work in an aggro version of BW. Semi Hero of Bladehold at a cheaper cost and reliable ability.

[Valech]

The only cards I would be considering in RTR would probably Deathrite Shaman, Abrupt Decay and Rest in Peace.

Deathrite Shaman - for its ability to hate cards currently in the meta like snapcaster, kotr, dredge, threshold etc. It would reliably improve our match ups against such deck increasing our winning percentages, which is something that this deck needs

Abrupt Decay - splashing green to get uncounterable semi vindicate/smother which hits nearly every card in the meta, nuff said

Rest in Peace - like what you said

Precinct Captain is my honorable mention which would probably work in an aggro version of BW. Semi Hero of Bladehold at a cheaper cost and reliable ability.



So, what would you cut for deathrite shaman? how many would you run? and will you include abrupt decay?

[sherko7]

Question to all you B/W players out there, how does this deck play out against a meta with decks like below (popularity in descending order):

Sneaky Show (and all variants)
U/R Delver
RUG Canadian
U/W Stoneblade
U/W Miracles
Maverick
Dredge
Goblins
Merfolk
Death and Taxes
Reanimator
Zoo
Enchantress
T.E.S.
Pox (and MBC variants)


I am currently choosing between this deck and Nic Fit to slowly invest in. Our meta does not change that much as most players have "their" decks.

[Valech]

Question to all you B/W players out there, how does this deck play out against a meta with decks like below (popularity in descending order):

Sneaky Show (and all variants)
U/R Delver
RUG Canadian
U/W Stoneblade
U/W Miracles
Maverick
Dredge
Goblins
Merfolk
Death and Taxes
Reanimator
Zoo
Enchantress
T.E.S.
Pox (and MBC variants)


I am currently choosing between this deck and Nic Fit to slowly invest in. Our meta does not change that much as most players have "their" decks.


(following my experience, no claim for accuracy)

Sneaky Show (and all variants) - g1 is hard. bring ethersworn canonist if you have. hard matchup imo.
U/R Delver - In our favor. we run a decent amount of removal and they are hit hard by early hand disruption. furthermore they only run a few threats. you will want to side in more removal. i win most of the games against delverdecks.
RUG Canadian - no idea
U/W Stoneblade - well balanced at best. they tend to be quicker when it comes to throwing big threats and have decent protection through counters.
U/W Miracles - well balanced to good. play around terminus and wreck his hands. flash lingering souls only if really needed. they also run very few threats. if you can disrupt his hand aim for stuff thats enables miracle trickery, i.e. brainstorm and tops
Maverick - first game quite hard, winable but hard. but dystopia and/or perish will make it a lot more easier. i do board out slow stuff like bitterblossom, cause this matchup is won in earlygame. not too sure about that at all.
Dredge - preboard quite bad - like almost every deck is preboard bad against that deck. perhaps deathrite shaman from rtr will lighten that up. bring all the hate postboard and spare your stp/ptw for his ichorids.
Goblins - they are quick. if they start rolling you probably wont recover. aim t1 for vials or, more important lackeys. if you run zealous persecution, it will help a lot. bring some more removal. sofai feels like winmore, but is definitly nice to have
Merfolk - if you let them drop more than 2 creatures youll lose. decimate and decimate always their threats. liliana is gold, every removal is gold. hate them thou.
Death and Taxes - only played very few games. dystopia will shine here.
Reanimator - if they drop griselbrand, and they will try that, itll get dire for you. take out hymns if you still run them, take out midrange threats like bitterblossom, wreck his hands if possible early and most important put in graveyardhate.
Zoo - loads of threats. same as maverick. dystopia, more pinpointremoval and hope for being a bit lucky.
Enchantress - again, dystopia shines golden. sometimes enchantress takes a shitload of time to set up. use that time. dont try to fight it out when they are loaded with stuff already. some ppl like to run 1 or 2 disenchant or the new and better disenchant from rtr.
T.E.S. - i hate stormcomboplayers. they weren´t breastfed. i swear. i run a set of ethersworn canonists only for those ..people.
Pox (and MBC variants) - well balanced. if you manage to survive their boardsweeping and to exile their recurring threats like netherspirit and bloodghast it will be golden. mox is nice here because pox wont affect it. they usually dont run lots of threats and sometimes you will see them deal damage through rack. if you run vindicate (or plan to splash g for abrupt decay) get rid of those threats.


again, just my opinion.

[sherko7]

(following my experience, no claim for accuracy)

Sneaky Show (and all variants) - g1 is hard. bring ethersworn canonist if you have. hard matchup imo.
U/R Delver - In our favor. we run a decent amount of removal and they are hit hard by early hand disruption. furthermore they only run a few threats. you will want to side in more removal. i win most of the games against delverdecks.
RUG Canadian - no idea
U/W Stoneblade - well balanced at best. they tend to be quicker when it comes to throwing big threats and have decent protection through counters.
U/W Miracles - well balanced to good. play around terminus and wreck his hands. flash lingering souls only if really needed. they also run very few threats. if you can disrupt his hand aim for stuff thats enables miracle trickery, i.e. brainstorm and tops
Maverick - first game quite hard, winable but hard. but dystopia and/or perish will make it a lot more easier. i do board out slow stuff like bitterblossom, cause this matchup is won in earlygame. not too sure about that at all.
Dredge - preboard quite bad - like almost every deck is preboard bad against that deck. perhaps deathrite shaman from rtr will lighten that up. bring all the hate postboard and spare your stp/ptw for his ichorids.
Goblins - they are quick. if they start rolling you probably wont recover. aim t1 for vials or, more important lackeys. if you run zealous persecution, it will help a lot. bring some more removal. sofai feels like winmore, but is definitly nice to have
Merfolk - if you let them drop more than 2 creatures youll lose. decimate and decimate always their threats. liliana is gold, every removal is gold. hate them thou.
Death and Taxes - only played very few games. dystopia will shine here.
Reanimator - if they drop griselbrand, and they will try that, itll get dire for you. take out hymns if you still run them, take out midrange threats like bitterblossom, wreck his hands if possible early and most important put in graveyardhate.
Zoo - loads of threats. same as maverick. dystopia, more pinpointremoval and hope for being a bit lucky.
Enchantress - again, dystopia shines golden. sometimes enchantress takes a shitload of time to set up. use that time. dont try to fight it out when they are loaded with stuff already. some ppl like to run 1 or 2 disenchant or the new and better disenchant from rtr.
T.E.S. - i hate stormcomboplayers. they weren´t breastfed. i swear. i run a set of ethersworn canonists only for those ..people.
Pox (and MBC variants) - well balanced. if you manage to survive their boardsweeping and to exile their recurring threats like netherspirit and bloodghast it will be golden. mox is nice here because pox wont affect it. they usually dont run lots of threats and sometimes you will see them deal damage through rack. if you run vindicate (or plan to splash g for abrupt decay) get rid of those threats.


again, just my opinion.


Thanks for the feedback! That does sound like the deck will not play too well in my meta though :frown:

I really like Dark Confidant and I am looking for a deck that can abuse/utilize him and be good in the above meta I mentioned. Hmmmm...

[Rizso]

Sneaky Show (and all variants) g1 is easier then game 2 tbh. Discards win game 1. Combination of thoughtseize, cabal therapy and maindecked lilianas makes game 1 very much winnable. Game 2 they should bring in leylines against the discard makes the matchup much harder. But geting in the seal of cleansing, oring and humility does make swing it a bit as well. like 55/45 in our favor.

U/R Delver a bit in their favor before board. 45/55% in their favor preboard. Afterboard with timely reinforcment the favor is back in our favor

RUG Canadian yet an other 50/50 matchup Its really tight matchup. ist just a couple of %ages in either favor.

U/W Stoneblade
U/W Miracles first game will last 30min at least and its in our favor planeswalkers are really strong against the deck. imo its in our favor with couple of %.

Maverick its a good matchup but maverick will punish any bad hands.

Dredge Greatly in their favor discard and walkers has little to no effect against them and it needs to much dedicated hate for being worth have a good matchup against it.

Goblins deck do contain alot of removal and tokens and trade with them very good.

Merfolk Again lot of removal and creatures in our deck that has to die bob and stoneforge also deck doesnt have and islands or forests great advantech to us. And they have minimal amount of removal like 2 dismembers..

Death and Taxes havent face the deck

Reanimator like dredge is in their favor but this one you can attack with discard and lilianas. And gravehate like surgical extraction is good.

Zoo Kinda like burn but more creatures fetching smart for basics playing arround pop and having enought removal in the deck to really lower the damage you take from them so you can overwhelm them with bob advantech. After the board Timely Reinforcements make the matchup alot easier so does the extra jitte.

Enchantress Their deck is really slow and Liliana can break the deck and so can dystopia from the board. Discard spells makes you able to pick of their hand and seal of cleansing getins boarded in as well. leyline is always a threat.

T.E.S. matchup in their favor same as with dredge need to many board cards to make it a favorble matchup. Even with Ethersworn canonist they will probly eot bounce or pact then go of and kill you. Hopefully surgical extraction and discard spells will buy enought time to beat trhem down but its doubtful.

Pox (and MBC variants) never faced. But surgical extraction, seal of cleansing, tokens and discard spells makes smallpoxes a bit less powerful. Seal of cleansing hits cursed scroll or crucibles of world.


Have had a bit diffrent results against thoes. For me alot of matchups are very close. There isnt a matchup that is a clear blowout but really no deck that just blows you out except maybe dredge but if drege is really infected the area then board can be changed accordingly so can it in a storm combo meta.

[Wilkin]

Here's how I see Deadguy stacking up (well, my version at least).

UW Miracles. Good for me. Haven't lost to it yet. Liliana, Bitterblossom and Vindicate are huge in this matchup. Bob less so, as he gets swords or countered. I usually bait out Confidant hoping he gets countered and then land Bitterblossom or Liliana.

Sneak attack. Not good. 35-65. They can combo off turn 1. I find game 1's easier but if they play Leyline of Sanctity it's friggin hard.

RUG Delver. Ok. 55-45. I have more removal then he has guys (maindeck 16). I also have RElics to deal with Goyf and Mongoose.

Goblins. Really good. Again, I have removal and one mana discard. Sword of Fire and Ice and Jitte are devastating against them.

Merfolk. ok 50-50. SOFI not as good vs them as it is vs Goblins.

Storm. ok. 50-50. If they get the turn 1 kill, nothing I can do about it. If they stumble, they're dead.

Enchantress. Good. I can deal with the 0/1 creature with edict effects.

MUD. Good. Played it 3 times, haven't lost. Scary deck though.

Dredge. Good. I lose game 1 but I have 5 GY hate in board with a tutor for 2 of them (relics).

Reanimator. Really good. 60-40 at least. I have removal in both colours and tons of GY hate and Show and tell cards.

Never faced Omniscience but I assume it's as bad as Sneak attack, probably worse as they don't solely rely on dudes to kill you.

Maverick. Good. Game 1's are close. Damnation and Liliana, gatekeeper, shriekmaw, jitte etc. usually too much for them to handle.


I have decent matchups but I don't have any slam dunk ones but some bad ones. Tried a different deck recently (2 combos in one, Painter combo and Leyline combo) and I must say it's nice to have matches that are almost auto-wins. lol. It's fun to land ensnaring bridge vs Merfolk game 1...

[sherko7]

@ Wilkin and Rizso

Thank you for your feedback! Your feedbacks vary, I guess it all comes down to what list you play. Can you further help me by showing me your list/s? Thanks!:tongue:

[Valech]

@ Wilkin and Rizso

Thank you for your feedback! Your feedbacks vary, I guess it all comes down to what list you play. Can you further help me by showing me your list/s? Thanks!:tongue:

currently this one:

4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Lingering Souls
4 Bitterblossom

3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughseize
4 Cabal therapy

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa´s Jitte
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 ajani goldmane
2 zealous persecution

3 Chrome Mox
4 Marsh Flats
2 polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
1 Plains
1 Fetid Heath
4 Scrubland
3 Swamp


Sideboard:
2 Timely Reinforcement
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Leyline of the void
3 dystopia
3 Pithing Needle
1 Umezawas Jitte

[GrimLavamancer]

Guys, I need a few advices:

I currently run this list:
Creatures (8+4)
4 Bob
4 Stoneforge
4 Lingering souls

Removal (9)
3 Vindicate
4 Swords To Plowshares
2 Zealous Persecution

Equips (3)
2 Jitte
1 Batterskull
Walkers (5)
3 Liliana of the veil
2 Sorin Lord of Innistrad

Hand Disruption (8)
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Inquisition of kozilek

Manabase (23)
3 Chrome Mox
4 Swamps
2 Plains
3 Scrublands
1 Isolated Chapel
3 Wasteland
1 Arid Mesa
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh flat

Sideboard
4 Surgical Extractions
3 Timely Reinforcement
2 Ethersworn canonist
1 Thalia, guardian of thraben
5 Random slots


Basically I would like to hear some suggestion on the sideboard, like:
Why seal of clansing vs show and tell? I guess it can be put into play to deal with emmy (like oblivion ring), but can it do something to omniscence? (I still have some doubt about what happens when you put stuffs into play by show and tell, it's not a match up I have often any way (very rare).

I also saw some debate (not here) about RtR new GY card, Rest in peace: But I don't see myself cutting Surgical, they can simply help vs lot of decks, removing their spells or even lands... what's your thought about it though? Guess if dredge is really heavy some room can be made for them, but otherwise...

Also, I really ended up liking sorin in this build, but I can't seems to find room for Bitterblossom:
They were slow and bad topdeck, specially since I play mostly vs aggro stuffs (that's why I run two jitte maindeck).
Is it also safe to drop one land? I always felt like I can't do without the extra plain, but it seems I am an exception among us :D

I really hope the orzhov's charm and others stuffs will have something useful for us :laugh:

[Rizso]

Reason for seal of cleansing instead of something like a disenchant is cos of flusterstorm and misdirection.

You can dropp down to 1 plain. plains are the worst land in the deck its just there really to avoid wastelands. With dazes, misdirection, flusterstorm and spellpierces everywhere power of vindicate is really diminished. Scrubland should be 4of and as a 5th dual land i run a Fetid Heath, it really does fix the mana when you are stuck with the sucky plain in play or a white card on your mox. IMO thoughtseizes are just better then inquisions of kozilek. If not wanting to play 4 thoughseizes they should at least split some for them. They are just so much better. They are the second best discard spell in the game after cabal therapy. I found myself board them in way to much when i ran 2 inquisions 2 thoughtseizes and are now playing 4 thoughtseizes, 4 Cabal Therapy and 2 inquisions main.

Rest in peace would be into trhe board as a supplement to surgical vs dredge, not replacing. Surgical extraction works in other matchups as well.

[GrimLavamancer]

thanks for the explanation, now they make sense :tongue:

Guess will drop one plain and will take changes into account regard to the metagame evolution (here isn't like in usa thankfully)

[paladin3056]

So, what would you cut for deathrite shaman? how many would you run? and will you include abrupt decay?

Currently working on a tentative decklist that would work with Deathrite Shaman while splashing green to get abrupt decay (uncounterability is invaluable especially in a meta full of blue). If I where to cut a card it would probably be Sorin, and vindicates (moved to the side). Will have a legacy tourney in a few weeks and would probably test it there.

[fetzonk]

Hi,

i am fairly new to this deck and legacy at all. I am using a deck very similar to rizso, which was kind of a blueprint for the first version of my deck.

Having little experience with legacy, i would like get some advice for sideboarding against other decks. Unfortunately i have very little time during the weekends. I cannot participate in tournaments very often. So i have to learn a lot by reading, watching, thinking, theory-stuff....

First of all her is the decklist:

Artifacts
2x Chrome Mox
2x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Batterskull

Creatures
4x Dark Confidant
4x Stoneforge Mystic

Enchantments
3x Bitterblossom

Land:
1x Godless Shrine
4x Scrubland
1x Karakas
1x Bloodstained Mire
4x Wasteland
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Arid Mesa
4x Marsh Flats
2x Plains
2x Swamp // maybe i should swap to 3 swamps, 1 plains?

Planeswalkers:
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3x Liliana of the Veil
1x Sorin, Lord of Innistrad

Spells:
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Cabal Therapy
1x Zealous Persecution
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Lingering Souls



Sideboard:
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Darkblast <- I am thinking about using ghastly demise above this, but in most cases darkblast was awesome.
2x Perish
2x Seal of Cleansing
2x Humility
3x Extirpate
1x Zealous Persecution
1x Surgical Extraction
2x Duress

Overall the sideboard is quiet ok. I don't want to change it (only exception is darkblast).

I made a sideboard plan against the most used decks in my meta and the typical decks to beat. My meta is very heavy on creatures. Maybe you can help me out using the existing sideboard more efficient. I would really appreciate any advice.

Sideboard-Plan:

Combo-Elves:
+1 Umezawa's Jitte, +1 Darkblast, +2 Perish, +2 Humility, +1 Zealous Persecution
-4 Cabal Therapy,-1 Liliana of the Veil,-1 Inquisition of Kozilek,-1 Batterskull

I think this matchup is very favorable, but i am not sure, if sideboarding card denial out, is the right choice here. This is still a combo deck. Is Humility too expensive? I did really well with this sideboard-plan, though. I won game 2+3.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Maverick:
+1 Umezawa's Jitte, +1 Darkblast, +2 Perish, +2 Humility, +1 Zealous Persecution,+1 Seal of Cleansing
-1 Chrome Mox, -4 Cabal Therapy,-3 Inquisition of Kozilek

I concentrate on destroying the creatures here. Again I take out most discard-spells. I can afford sideboarding out chrome mox, i think. Maverick is not that fast. I faced Maverick a lot of times. After sideboarding my odds were definately better winning the game. Overall 50/50
----------------------------------------------------------------------
TES:
+2 Duress, +3 Extirpate, +1 Surgical Extraction,+2 Seal of Cleansing
-4 Swords to Plowshares,-1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant, -1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad, -2 Liliana of the Veil

I won the only matchup i had. He won the 2nd game with a T1-kill. In the 1st and 3rd game, i destroyed his hand and killed him with batterskull.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Goblins:
+1 Umezawa's Jitte, +1 Darkblast, +2 Humility, +1 Zealous Persecution,+1 Seal of Cleansing
-1 Chrome Mox, -4 Cabal Therapy,-1 Inquisition of Kozilek,-1 Liliana of the Veil

Not sure about taking Liliana out, but she is quiet expensive and goblins are fast and use ports and wastelands. I am really not sure what is best here. Had some matchups against goblins. 50/50
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Omniscience:
+2 Duress, +3 Extirpate, +1 Surgical Extraction,+2 Humility,+2 Seal of Cleansing
-4 Swords to Plowshares,-1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant, -1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad, -1 Stoneforge Mystic,-1 Zealous Persecution,-2 Bitterblossom

I lost this one. He won the coinflip and killed me in game 1 and 3 in turn 2. The problem was in both games, that he tucked his good spells away with brainstorm in response to my discardspells. I think, that the sideboard is pretty strong against Omniscience nevertheless. I think i would have won, if won the coinflip.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
UWB-Stoneblade:
+2 Duress
-1 Liliana of the Veil,-1 Chrome Mox

Never played against it, so i don't know if it's right.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
rUG Delver:
+2 Duress, +2 Perish,+1 Umezawa's Jitte
-2 Stoneforge Mystic, -1 Chrome Mox, -1 Liliana of the Veil, -1 Batterskull

Never played against it, so i don't know if it's right. I am sure it is not the best plan. There are definately other options.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sneak and Show:
+2 Duress, +2 Seal of Cleansing, +2 Humility,+3 Extirpate,+1 Surgical Extraction
-4 Swords to Plowshares,-1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant, -1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad, -1 Stoneforge Mystic,-1 Zealous Persecution,-2 Bitterblossom

It's basicly the same sideboard like the one for Omniscience. I think this matchup is easier for us.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
UW Miracle
+2 Duress,+1 Zealous Persecution,+1 Umezawa's Jitte
-4 Swords to Plowshares

Never played against miracle, i don't know.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dredge
+3 Extirpate,+1 Surgical Extraction,+1 Umezawa's Jitte,+1 Zealous Persecution,+2 Duress
-3 Liliana of the Veil,-Cabal therapy,-4 Swords to Plowshares

My sideboard is pretty helpless against dredge i think. Never faced Dredge in my meta, though.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Merfolk
+1 Umezawa's Jitte, +2 Humility, +2 Seal of Cleansing
-4 Cabal Therapy,-1 Inquisition of Kozilek

Again, never played against it. Seal of Cleansing for Standstill, Vial.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Reanimator
+1 Surgical Extraction,+3 Extirpate,+2 Duress,+2 Humility
-1 Zealous Persecution,-2 Stoneforge Mystic,-1 Umezawa's Jitte,-4 Cabal Therapy

Never played against reanimator. Don't know if this sideboard-plan works. Maybe keeping cabal therapy is the better choice? Dropping Bitterblossom?

As I said. Feedback appreciated.



Reason for seal of cleansing instead of something like a disenchant is cos of flusterstorm and misdirection.

Also it's nice to have your hand empty if you choose to +1 your liliana.

I had a Seal of Cleansing in a Omniscience-Matchup. So i ShowandTelled the Seal and destroyed his Omniscience. Unfortunately the opponent still had priority and cast another Omniscience, which kind of ended the game.

I watched other games of this omniscience deck and the guy couldn't put the gameending-threads into play most of the times. In most cases he had to tutor first (burning wish etc.). If you can response to this by destroying his omniscience, he has to start all over again. I think Seal of Cleansing is really nice in this matchup.


edit: added card-tags

[Viridia]

Just quickly hopping in here, why board in Seal of Cleansing vs TES? Hoping to get the LED they played to stop it from discarding? I haven't checked your list very well if you just have so many things to board out, but i wouldnt board in Seal of Cleansing usually

[fetzonk]

Just quickly hopping in here, why board in Seal of Cleansing vs TES? Hoping to get the LED they played to stop it from discarding? I haven't checked your list very well if you just have so many things to board out, but i wouldnt board in Seal of Cleansing usually

Hi, yes, that's actually my intention. I know the seal isn't that great against LED. There are so many dead cards in the main deck and i think the seal is better than nothing. Maybe you are right and keeping liliana in the deck and using the +1 discard ability is the better option?

[Rizso]

You dont want to remove the cabal therapy against dredge as the flaskback will remove the bridges. also it will never ever force them to discard a dredge card as long as you arent naming it for some odd reason.

The seal is fine against storm cos when you play with discard spells they tend to cast the mana artifacts to be able to save them without brainstorm.

As for lands imo it should be 3swamp / 1 plain as basics and 4 scrublands, 4 marshflats and 2 other black fetchlands myself run 2 polluted delta it. Just doing something simple as delta into swamp thoughtseize can against an unknown opponent think you are playing a storm deck and it can really tilt his gameplan against you. I have done it against a rug player. I stumbled on my 2nd land after doing the delta, swamp thoughtseize. But stumbled so long that i just gave up. Then he boarded in anti-storm cards wich isnt exactly effective against me then winning the 2 games after the stumble. Sure polluted deltas are bit more expensive then the BG or the BR fetch.

[Valech]

@ Fetznok

I would suggest
-1 Stoneforge
+1 Chrome Mox

I dont like Top in the Deck, but thats only my opinion.

Split Inquisition/Thoughtseize.

[fetzonk]

@Valech: I will test using a 3rd Chrome Mox. I am not sure if it really works out for me. In almost all matches the Stoneforge Mystic was really important for me, because in the creature-heavy meta, the livegain and the pressure from the equipment helped a lot. With another Chrome Mox i would add another mana slot to the deck.

Yes, thoughtseize is probably the better option. It's prize unfortunately went higher and higher. I will check, if have the money for 1 or 2 of them.

I really like to play with the top, in any deck :). And it saved me quiet often from a manascrew, kept the pressure up in the late game and saved me from being killed by my own confidant. I know that the top lacks the tempo in the first turns though.

@Rizso:
You are right, cabal therapy definately has to stay vs dredge. I never actually read the wording of the bridges completely.

I will swap one plain for a swamp and swap the arid mesa with a polluted delta. I am not sure about getting another 2 polluted delta. They are quiet expensive. I would like to have one for my EDH-Deck anyway. So I buy one.

Thx for the suggestions, everyone!

p.s.:
i think will switch one seal of cleansing with an oblivion ring. the only deck i sideboard both seal of cleansing in is showandtell/omniscience-decks (there are some in my meta). oblivion ring is better there i think.

[rei4u2005]

@Rizso
May you share your current B/w Confidant deck ? I'm really interested on the way you breakdown your deck

[Wilkin]

My list is on the tournament reports. Yeah, although Rizso and I (and everyone else here, lol) are playing Deadguy Ale since the builds differ so do the matchups.

Rizso's list is more token based whereas my only tokens come from Bitterblossom. I probably play more removal than him or most people for that matter. I do like the Timely Reinforcements, if my meta had more burn in it, I'd consider it.

Debating whether to play only 2 Thoughtseize. I used to play 4 Thoughseize, 4 bob and 3 Bitterblossom but at times I had "dead cards" in hand since I only want to have one bitterblossom in play and only more than one Bob vs Combo matchups. I cut down to 3 thoughtseize, 2 Inquisition and 3 Cabal Therapy at the moment.

Reasoning is the life loss eventually matters and against most decks I take something that Inquisition would have taken anyway (like Delver of Secrets).

Will definitely play a Rest in Peace in the board. So good vs Threshold. Heck, I'm going to build a Rest in Peace/Energy Field/Helm of Obedience deck sometime. Lol, at a tournament recently I played Leyline of the Void main with Helm in conjunction with Painter Servant Combo. Made top 4.

[FortyThree]

Hey guys,

I've been following this thread pretty closely for the last little while, while I gathered thew cards I needed to play this deck. Yesterday I finally managed to get everything for it, and it's a blast! I've put together Riszo's version, with a few minor changes (mostly moving around the discard suite, since I don't have any thoughtseizes).


However, I'd like a bit of advice about the sideboard. I've been thinking I'd like to run an enlightened tutor sideboard, but I'm wondering whether this would be a good idea, or whether relying on tutoring would be too slow.

I'm thinking about something along the lines of:

2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Humility (sneak and show, maverick, death and taxes, merfolk, goblins, etc.)
1x Oblivion Ring (sneak and show, omnisciense, etc)
1x Chalice of the Void (storm, delver variants)
1x Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice (there's quite a few goblins, merfolk, and rug delver in my meta)
1x Seal of Cleansing
1x Ethersworn Cannonist (storm)
1x Pithing Needle
2x Perish
1x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Surgical Extraction


Would that make sense, or am I wasting my time with the tutors and should just replace them with something else?

Thanks for reading!

43

[Rizso]

Dont think you should go way overboard with the tutor board.

If i would do a tutor board right now it would be like:
enlightened tutor
dystopia
Rest in peace
humility
oblivion ring
canonists

Really dont want the tutors in any matchups that is a grind. But really as good as rest in peace is i think i just rather play more of the rest in peace then bothering with the tutors. The board for the deck is afterall very flexible. It should contain: maverick hate, gravehat and the rest of the cards should be against the meta.

[Valech]

So, has anyone made experiences with deathrite shaman and/or abrupt decay? I agressivly made room for deathrite shaman maindeck and run two decays sideboard. I also added an extra Bayou. I am not underwhlemed by deathrite shaman´s performance, but i think four of them is too much. 2-3 will feel better, especially because it makes room for abrupt decay maindeck, which was a hammer everytime i drew it.

My observation was, that i often couldnt decide weather to play Shaman or ts/inqui T1, when I had cc3 spells in my hand. Another hard decision was, if I should keep my hand with shaman and chrome mox. Felt a bit like too much mana acceleration.
On the other hand i had some sweet moments with shaman as well. Against graveyard-related decks it´s a gift. Also, Goyfs and KotRs don´t really see much land against that guy. I also had two matches in which he slowly beat my opponent´s healthpool after ensnaring bridge stalled me.
Abrupt decay saw more game time then other cards in my sideboard. Which is why I look for a maindeck spot for it. CB-players cry, its useful against fast aggro decks and controlly decks in general don´t like it.

Any thoughts on this?

[Gaka]

So, has anyone made experiences with deathrite shaman and/or abrupt decay? I agressivly made room for deathrite shaman maindeck and run two decays sideboard. I also added an extra Bayou. I am not underwhlemed by deathrite shaman´s performance, but i think four of them is too much. 2-3 will feel better, especially because it makes room for abrupt decay maindeck, which was a hammer everytime i drew it.

My observation was, that i often couldnt decide weather to play Shaman or ts/inqui T1, when I had cc3 spells in my hand. Another hard decision was, if I should keep my hand with shaman and chrome mox. Felt a bit like too much mana acceleration.
On the other hand i had some sweet moments with shaman as well. Against graveyard-related decks it´s a gift. Also, Goyfs and KotRs don´t really see much land against that guy. I also had two matches in which he slowly beat my opponent´s healthpool after ensnaring bridge stalled me.
Abrupt decay saw more game time then other cards in my sideboard. Which is why I look for a maindeck spot for it. CB-players cry, its useful against fast aggro decks and controlly decks in general don´t like it.

Any thoughts on this?

I've had the same basic experiences as you. I run 3 Deathrites and 2 Decays main, with a Pernicious Deed Side, as a good bonus for the barely green splash.

I tried the deck with moxen and without, thinking that deathrites would let me skimp out on mana for business. Which of course turned out to be bull. I'm totally fine with 3 deathrites, 2 moxen for mana acceleration, and I upped my fetchland count to improve both my manabase (splashing for two bayous) and deathrites.

I've ditched the bitterblosssoms, which I have always been 50/50 on. Sometimes they're amazing, and other times they're crap. It's looking more and more like a sideboard card, but it's not worthy of that. So let's just get rid of them altogether.

Versus graveyard decks (loam, dredge, comes to mind) deathrite suddenly turns from a black manadork into your wincon. It's so good I can't begin to describe how effective it is to shut off loam's loaming, and dredge falters when I'm eating at the dredgers, punishing them for a slow hand that only gets better post board.

In short, I love deathrite, and decays make a lot of iffy matchups much, much better.

[paladin3056]

I've had the same basic experiences as you. I run 3 Deathrites and 2 Decays main, with a Pernicious Deed Side, as a good bonus for the barely green splash.

I tried the deck with moxen and without, thinking that deathrites would let me skimp out on mana for business. Which of course turned out to be bull. I'm totally fine with 3 deathrites, 2 moxen for mana acceleration, and I upped my fetchland count to improve both my manabase (splashing for two bayous) and deathrites.

I've ditched the bitterblosssoms, which I have always been 50/50 on. Sometimes they're amazing, and other times they're crap. It's looking more and more like a sideboard card, but it's not worthy of that. So let's just get rid of them altogether.

Versus graveyard decks (loam, dredge, comes to mind) deathrite suddenly turns from a black manadork into your wincon. It's so good I can't begin to describe how effective it is to shut off loam's loaming, and dredge falters when I'm eating at the dredgers, punishing them for a slow hand that only gets better post board.

In short, I love deathrite, and decays make a lot of iffy matchups much, much better.

I run 4 Deathrites and 3 Decays (no Chrome Mox, can't justify the loss of CA from it), having multiples of Deathrites is not bad at all, I had this game against Merfolk with his GY full of creatures and some instants and sorceries and I have 3 Deathrites in play, and him with LoA and a few merfolks. I had 2 Deathrites gaining me life and 1 shocking him each turn and won via deathrites killing him, it was mazing how he can affect the game state. It is also good against Dredge in the 1st game which would have been an auto loose for us, but deathrite changed it all, its an easy win if your opponent can't dredge fast enough. Against RU Delver it was a hit, 1st turn Deathrite, 2nd turn Thoughtseize SFM, 3rd turn Hymn and SFM into jitte/Batterskull can stop it in its tracks, thus an unanswered Deathrite can boost out our early game a whole lot, even hardcasting a batterskull or equipping into it was even possible in this deck. The only decks which this doesn't do much is combo decks, currently looking into getting more discard into the deck as fodder for Deathrite, I am even considering Nezumi Shortfang, instant discard and can transform into a rack on legs is not a bad option.

I think Chrome Mox and Deathrite Shaman is lot of acceleration, I would rather go into Deathrite and drop chrome mox because top decking into Deathrite is a whole lot better than top decking into a chrome mox since it can do much more :laugh:

[Wilkin]

IMHO, Deathrite Shaman is bad vs dredge. Milling one card a turn (and not even on the turn you cast him) is usually way too slow vs Dredge.

Even Extraction and Extirpate are only ok cards but they are at least instant speed. But Deathrite is too slow IMO. If you are going to splash green, I'd much rather go for Scavenging Ooze or Knight of the Reliquary. Creatures that are beaters but can also affect the graveyard.

Shaman might me alright vs. say a Threshold deck (although i doubt it) or say an Aggro loam deck. But honestly the card from the new set that is awesome is Rest in Peace. Not only does it nuke both graveyards but further cards can't enter the graveyard. That is far better against Dredge, Reanimator, Thopter Combo, Threshold decks than Shaman. A 0/1 Goyf and 1/1 Mongoose are far easier to handle....for Shaman to do that, he would have to live for a long while.

[Valech]

I run 4 Deathrites and 3 Decays (no Chrome Mox, can't justify the loss of CA from it), having multiples of Deathrites is not bad at all, I had this game against Merfolk with his GY full of creatures and some instants and sorceries and I have 3 Deathrites in play, and him with LoA and a few merfolks. I had 2 Deathrites gaining me life and 1 shocking him each turn and won via deathrites killing him, it was mazing how he can affect the game state. It is also good against Dredge in the 1st game which would have been an auto loose for us, but deathrite changed it all, its an easy win if your opponent can't dredge fast enough. Against RU Delver it was a hit, 1st turn Deathrite, 2nd turn Thoughtseize SFM, 3rd turn Hymn and SFM into jitte/Batterskull can stop it in its tracks, thus an unanswered Deathrite can boost out our early game a whole lot, even hardcasting a batterskull or equipping into it was even possible in this deck. The only decks which this doesn't do much is combo decks, currently looking into getting more discard into the deck as fodder for Deathrite, I am even considering Nezumi Shortfang, instant discard and can transform into a rack on legs is not a bad option.

I think Chrome Mox and Deathrite Shaman is lot of acceleration, I would rather go into Deathrite and drop chrome mox because top decking into Deathrite is a whole lot better than top decking into a chrome mox since it can do much more :laugh:




I won´t play without my Moxens anymore. The point is, that the manaacceleration of Deathrite Shaman only accelerates CC3+ cards. Unfortunatley we, or at least I, play mostly CC2 cards, namely Bob, Mystic, Bitterblossom, Canonist Sideboard, Abrupt Decay and Jitte. perhaps I forgot a few. Of course I like doing several things T2 like cc2 + discard/StoP but even more I love dropping a must-handle T1 (T1 = only-FoW-will-stop-you). Thats why I run two Mox. If you don´t draw them right away, you probably won´t in the rest of the game. If you draw 1 right away, chances are even smaller that you will draw the other one. If you start with both... well, then you are an unlucky man.
Of course I see the utility Shaman may provide, but saying topdecking him midgame is better then topdecking Mox doesn´t mean it´s good to topdeck him.
Even examples like your merfolk-match can´t convince me of him being worth a playset. If you were able to drop three creatures agsinst merfolk without being countered or overrun long before, game was yours anyway.

Conclusion: I will stay with two Mox and three of Shaman. Perhaps cut Shaman to two.


@ Gaka:
I´d like to see your list or at least know about your walker-setup.

@ Wilkin:
So how is it desireable to nuke both graveyards if you run cards with flashback, e.g. Lingering Souls and Cabal Therapy?
Shaman indeed is slow. But milling one card a turn is better than milling none. Ooze would be more of a sb card to me.

[paladin3056]

I won´t play without my Moxens anymore. The point is, that the manaacceleration of Deathrite Shaman only accelerates CC3+ cards. Unfortunatley we, or at least I, play mostly CC2 cards, namely Bob, Mystic, Bitterblossom, Canonist Sideboard, Abrupt Decay and Jitte. perhaps I forgot a few. Of course I like doing several things T2 like cc2 + discard/StoP but even more I love dropping a must-handle T1 (T1 = only-FoW-will-stop-you). Thats why I run two Mox. If you don´t draw them right away, you probably won´t in the rest of the game. If you draw 1 right away, chances are even smaller that you will draw the other one. If you start with both... well, then you are an unlucky man.
Of course I see the utility Shaman may provide, but saying topdecking him midgame is better then topdecking Mox doesn´t mean it´s good to topdeck him.
Even examples like your merfolk-match can´t convince me of him being worth a playset. If you were able to drop three creatures agsinst merfolk without being countered or overrun long before, game was yours anyway.

Conclusion: I will stay with two Mox and three of Shaman. Perhaps cut Shaman to two.

As much as I like the Moxen (Turn 1 Bob, SFM and Hymn) which is definitely a tempting play, but not a play that we would often play into, then having to top deck a mox into mid to late game gave me some bad experiences so I had to drop it, but its your choice we do have different opinions and deck list while mine is still in the works. But I think if it were in yours you can just drop deathrite all the same, they definitely work better in multiples since I had games where i would definitely like to draw more to get more value. Keep the abrupts, they are worth the splash until we get into Gatecrash which I am very hopeful we would get instant discard via Orzhov Charm and more goodies.

[Gaka]

IMHO, Deathrite Shaman is bad vs dredge. Milling one card a turn (and not even on the turn you cast him) is usually way too slow vs Dredge.

Even Extraction and Extirpate are only ok cards but they are at least instant speed. But Deathrite is too slow IMO. If you are going to splash green, I'd much rather go for Scavenging Ooze or Knight of the Reliquary. Creatures that are beaters but can also affect the graveyard.

Shaman might me alright vs. say a Threshold deck (although i doubt it) or say an Aggro loam deck. But honestly the card from the new set that is awesome is Rest in Peace. Not only does it nuke both graveyards but further cards can't enter the graveyard. That is far better against Dredge, Reanimator, Thopter Combo, Threshold decks than Shaman. A 0/1 Goyf and 1/1 Mongoose are far easier to handle....for Shaman to do that, he would have to live for a long while.

Deathrite isn't playable simply because it interacts with dredge. Yes, it can be slow against dredge, but game 1 against dredge is pretty shitty right now. Deathrite turns that game 1 from bad to possibility of winning. For a black manadork. Seems reasonable to me. It's playable because it's versatile.

He helps the original 56 along with his ramp, gives us some reach, and helps offset bob's lifeloss. It's reasonable for a single hybrid mana.

For barely doing anything other than slipping in a Bayou (maybe even a Dryad Arbor to facilitate more fodder for Cabal Therapy or Jitte) it's a good choice.


I won´t play without my Moxens anymore. The point is, that the manaacceleration of Deathrite Shaman only accelerates CC3+ cards. Unfortunatley we, or at least I, play mostly CC2 cards, namely Bob, Mystic, Bitterblossom, Canonist Sideboard, Abrupt Decay and Jitte. perhaps I forgot a few. Of course I like doing several things T2 like cc2 + discard/StoP but even more I love dropping a must-handle T1 (T1 = only-FoW-will-stop-you). Thats why I run two Mox. If you don´t draw them right away, you probably won´t in the rest of the game. If you draw 1 right away, chances are even smaller that you will draw the other one. If you start with both... well, then you are an unlucky man.
Of course I see the utility Shaman may provide, but saying topdecking him midgame is better then topdecking Mox doesn´t mean it´s good to topdeck him.
Even examples like your merfolk-match can´t convince me of him being worth a playset. If you were able to drop three creatures agsinst merfolk without being countered or overrun long before, game was yours anyway.

Conclusion: I will stay with two Mox and three of Shaman. Perhaps cut Shaman to two.


@ Gaka:
I´d like to see your list or at least know about your walker-setup.

@ Wilkin:
So how is it desireable to nuke both graveyards if you run cards with flashback, e.g. Lingering Souls and Cabal Therapy?
Shaman indeed is slow. But milling one card a turn is better than milling none. Ooze would be more of a sb card to me.

I totally understand where you're coming from in terms of not wanting to drop moxen. That two mox/three shaman set up is identical to what I'm running, and it's been working well. I dropped the moxen initially, thinking the extra boost from shaman would allow me to cut them... but it doesn't. It's a totally different sort of acceleration, and both are perfectly reasonable. Late-game topdecks can be pretty bad with moxen, but hopefully you have any one of your engines or beatsticks on board and can afford one. If you have a Liliana out mox isn't a terrible topdeck, either. You know what you're discarding.


Right now the list I've settled on is...

1 Batterskull
2 Chrome Mox
2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Dark Confidant
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic

2 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Zealous Persecution

3 Cabal Therapy
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
2 Vindicate

3 Liliana of the Veil

2 Bayou
4 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
4 Scrubland
1 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath

And I'm still testing parts of the board, but am running this right now:

2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Humility
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Serenity
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Timely Reinforcements

I'm not totally sold on Serenity, Deed, or the reinforcements, with the straight BW build Timely was great and serenity was occasionally really useful, but the green splash might add toys that could replace them.

I was running Engineered Explosives for a time.

[Wilkin]

I won´t play without my Moxens anymore. The point is, that the manaacceleration of Deathrite Shaman only accelerates CC3+ cards. Unfortunatley we, or at least I, play mostly CC2 cards, namely Bob, Mystic, Bitterblossom, Canonist Sideboard, Abrupt Decay and Jitte. perhaps I forgot a few. Of course I like doing several things T2 like cc2 + discard/StoP but even more I love dropping a must-handle T1 (T1 = only-FoW-will-stop-you). Thats why I run two Mox. If you don´t draw them right away, you probably won´t in the rest of the game. If you draw 1 right away, chances are even smaller that you will draw the other one. If you start with both... well, then you are an unlucky man.
Of course I see the utility Shaman may provide, but saying topdecking him midgame is better then topdecking Mox doesn´t mean it´s good to topdeck him.
Even examples like your merfolk-match can´t convince me of him being worth a playset. If you were able to drop three creatures agsinst merfolk without being countered or overrun long before, game was yours anyway.

Conclusion: I will stay with two Mox and three of Shaman. Perhaps cut Shaman to two.


@ Gaka:
I´d like to see your list or at least know about your walker-setup.

@ Wilkin:
So how is it desireable to nuke both graveyards if you run cards with flashback, e.g. Lingering Souls and Cabal Therapy?
Shaman indeed is slow. But milling one card a turn is better than milling none. Ooze would be more of a sb card to me.

I run Cabal Therapy but not Lingering Souls. Nuking both GY's are worth it if you can nullify your opponents creatures (like Goyf) or gameplan entirely like Dredge. I don't run Lingering Souls as I find it too many intensive for the amount of mana I run in my deck (23) and a lot of people in my meta run either Sulfur Elemental or Dread of Night. I already play a ton of 3 drops and I find Bitterblossom usually does the job.
As for the Mox argument, I can see both sides. I will say that since Hymn To Tourach isn't as good (with so much Misdirection around) it makes that turn 1 Chrome Mox play not as optimal. I still run Mox myself but the best plays I've done aren't Hymn anymore...it's a Thoughtseize and a Therapy turn 1...or Thoughtseize turn 1, Turn 2 Liliana.
Perhaps the Shaman can change it and be the Deadguy version of Noble Hierarch. Lol, too bad Abrupt Decay wasn't black/white. I wonder if Gatecrash is going to bring a 2 mana removal in black/white that's on par with Decay or Dreadbore.

[paladin3056]

Deathrite isn't playable simply because it interacts with dredge. Yes, it can be slow against dredge, but game 1 against dredge is pretty shitty right now. Deathrite turns that game 1 from bad to possibility of winning. For a black manadork. Seems reasonable to me. It's playable because it's versatile.

He helps the original 56 along with his ramp, gives us some reach, and helps offset bob's lifeloss. It's reasonable for a single hybrid mana.

For barely doing anything other than slipping in a Bayou (maybe even a Dryad Arbor to facilitate more fodder for Cabal Therapy or Jitte) it's a good choice.



I totally understand where you're coming from in terms of not wanting to drop moxen. That two mox/three shaman set up is identical to what I'm running, and it's been working well. I dropped the moxen initially, thinking the extra boost from shaman would allow me to cut them... but it doesn't. It's a totally different sort of acceleration, and both are perfectly reasonable. Late-game topdecks can be pretty bad with moxen, but hopefully you have any one of your engines or beatsticks on board and can afford one. If you have a Liliana out mox isn't a terrible topdeck, either. You know what you're discarding.


Right now the list I've settled on is...

1 Batterskull
2 Chrome Mox
2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Dark Confidant
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic

2 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Zealous Persecution

3 Cabal Therapy
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
2 Vindicate

3 Liliana of the Veil

2 Bayou
4 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
4 Scrubland
1 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath

And I'm still testing parts of the board, but am running this right now:

2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Humility
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Serenity
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Timely Reinforcements

I'm not totally sold on Serenity, Deed, or the reinforcements, with the straight BW build Timely was great and serenity was occasionally really useful, but the green splash might add toys that could replace them.

I was running Engineered Explosives for a time.

Yes Deathrite improves the match ups, like from completely unwinnable to a slight chance of winning. There was this one game against dredge where I won game 1, I had 2 deathrites in play putting the matchups in my favor.

As for the Moxen, I'll look if I'll test it in my build and see how it goes. Its been a long time since I last played with it though.


I run Cabal Therapy but not Lingering Souls. Nuking both GY's are worth it if you can nullify your opponents creatures (like Goyf) or gameplan entirely like Dredge. I don't run Lingering Souls as I find it too many intensive for the amount of mana I run in my deck (23) and a lot of people in my meta run either Sulfur Elemental or Dread of Night. I already play a ton of 3 drops and I find Bitterblossom usually does the job.
As for the Mox argument, I can see both sides. I will say that since Hymn To Tourach isn't as good (with so much Misdirection around) it makes that turn 1 Chrome Mox play not as optimal. I still run Mox myself but the best plays I've done aren't Hymn anymore...it's a Thoughtseize and a Therapy turn 1...or Thoughtseize turn 1, Turn 2 Liliana.
Perhaps the Shaman can change it and be the Deadguy version of Noble Hierarch. Lol, too bad Abrupt Decay wasn't black/white. I wonder if Gatecrash is going to bring a 2 mana removal in black/white that's on par with Decay or Dreadbore.

Yeah, Misdirect would now be the SB of choice for blue players since it can hit Abrupt Decay making Hymn a whole lot worse to play. Yeah I'm praying for a decent 2cc removal for BW in Gatecrash and a very nice Orzhov Charm.

[Mirrislegend]

What do people use as their "scary big guy" in this deck? When I play Junk, Knight of the Reliquary is a perfect example.

I'm designing a Deadguy list (in case Junk fails me again) and I've got 2 slots open for bigger beats or higher cost. Given that I'm not playing Vial (so no Serra Avenger) and I'm trying to avoid graveyard useage (meaning no Lingering Souls or Tombstalker), the best choices I've seen so far are Vampire Nighthawk, Mirran Crusader, and Hero of Bladehold.

Does anyone have a preference (among those, or other choices) and why?

[Gaka]

What do people use as their "scary big guy" in this deck? When I play Junk, Knight of the Reliquary is a perfect example.

I'm designing a Deadguy list (in case Junk fails me again) and I've got 2 slots open for bigger beats or higher cost. Given that I'm not playing Vial (so no Serra Avenger) and I'm trying to avoid graveyard useage (meaning no Lingering Souls or Tombstalker), the best choices I've seen so far are Vampire Nighthawk, Mirran Crusader, and Hero of Bladehold.

Does anyone have a preference (among those, or other choices) and why?

You should really rethink no Lingering Souls, it's by far the best way to win in the deck. I can't imagine not running less than 3, and I'd only cut one if something better were to pop up. It's the best card against tempo decks and control decks who can't afford to counter it without the flashback biting on them. If they counter the flashback'd version, you got a 0-1, two if they force.

Also, I don't think you really need any "big scary guys" at all. If you're running bob, each card needs to pull weight at least equal to the amount of damage it will do you when you flip it, because you will.

[Mirrislegend]

I love LSouls, I really do. But my experiences with Junk have taught me that sometimes you need to put something on the board that just makes your opponent shit their britches. The dejected tone of voice and various colorful expressions that I've received after sticking a Knight of the Reliquary are just priceless.

LSouls does the same thing that the rest of the deck does. Trades raw power for card advantage and utility. But facing down a team of Geese and Goyfs with Confidants and Stoneforges is not exactly desirable from an defensive or an offensive perspective

[scottjmorrow]

I love LSouls, I really do. But my experiences with Junk have taught me that sometimes you need to put something on the board that just makes your opponent shit their britches. The dejected tone of voice and various colorful expressions that I've received after sticking a Knight of the Reliquary are just priceless.

LSouls does the same thing that the rest of the deck does. Trades raw power for card advantage and utility. But facing down a team of Geese and Goyfs with Confidants and Stoneforges is not exactly desirable from an defensive or an offensive perspective

I'm running four copies of Mirran Crusader, who is a good meta call (if you can protect him -- I'm running Mom) and who is a house with Jitte. He's even better with Sword of War and Peace, but I've cut that for now. I'm on a phone at the moment, but I'll post my list soon.

[scottjmorrow]

Okay, so this is the list that I'm tentatively running for the SCG Open in Indy this weekend. I'm kind of torn on the discard package, specifically Tidehollow Sculler. I like that he holds a sword, and he's better in this list with Mother of Runes and Thalia...but even if I have to pay two mana for a discard spell, maybe it's better to deal with a card completely? I could pull him and split the slots with two regular discard spells (Inquisition) and maybe a pair of O-Rings or copies of Mana Tithe. I like Tithe for the WTF? factor, but maybe regular discard spells are better. I also could go with Hymn, but it's so much less devastating after turn two.

Also, I've only tested this a bit, but I'm liking Judge's Familiar so far. As has been discussed, the bird into Thalia is a big game early, and the flying is great with Jitte or other equipment.

4 Mother of Runes
4 Judge's Familiar
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Mirran Crusader

4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Batterskull

4 Scrubland
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Marsh Flats
2 Arid Mesa
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Plains
1 Swamp

SB
2 Duress
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Spectral Lynx
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Rest in Peace
1 Serenity
1 Warmth
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Oblivion Ring

I'm still tweaking the sideboard. I want to fit a Pithing Needle in there, maybe another sword, Rule of Law, and Manriki-Gusari -- probably switching out the Forge-Tenders and something else.

[Mirrislegend]

How has the ORLY owl been for you? That guy looks juicy in LD builds.

You make an excellent point about metagame calls: my meta is full of RUG, so my special threat needs to survive bolt. Hence, no Mirran Crusader or Vampire Nighthawk. Hero of Bladehold it is!

[evilGod]

I've been playing Sculler for awhile now in a lower creature build than yours, and he's been an all star for me. Most decks that you really want to be taking cards from tend to ignore creatures, and the ones that do interact he can hold a sword or pull removal away from Stoneforge/Confidant.

And you're usually happier top decking one than a Hymn after turn 3.

[Valech]

Okay, so this is the list that I'm tentatively running for the SCG Open in Indy this weekend. I'm kind of torn on the discard package, specifically Tidehollow Sculler. I like that he holds a sword, and he's better in this list with Mother of Runes and Thalia...but even if I have to pay two mana for a discard spell, maybe it's better to deal with a card completely? I could pull him and split the slots with two regular discard spells (Inquisition) and maybe a pair of O-Rings or copies of Mana Tithe. I like Tithe for the WTF? factor, but maybe regular discard spells are better. I also could go with Hymn, but it's so much less devastating after turn two.

Also, I've only tested this a bit, but I'm liking Judge's Familiar so far. As has been discussed, the bird into Thalia is a big game early, and the flying is great with Jitte or other equipment.

4 Mother of Runes
4 Judge's Familiar
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Mirran Crusader

4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Batterskull

4 Scrubland
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Marsh Flats
2 Arid Mesa
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Plains
1 Swamp

SB
2 Duress
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Spectral Lynx
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Rest in Peace
1 Serenity
1 Warmth
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Oblivion Ring

I'm still tweaking the sideboard. I want to fit a Pithing Needle in there, maybe another sword, Rule of Law, and Manriki-Gusari -- probably switching out the Forge-Tenders and something else.


Well, Sculler is quite nice, a good example for a hatebear: solid body, solid utility. what bugs me is, that he really shows his full potential within vial builds. dropping him in your opponents draw step feels like playing a clique. also, you run quite some cc2 drops, why dont you run vial at all?

im curious about your cc1 drops. you run 12 of them, not counting the StoPs because they are rather reactive. Never get into trouble what you drop first? I think familiar is a bit misplaced because it feels like another kind of controle, aside from discarding-controle. i may be wrong.

[scottjmorrow]

How has the ORLY owl been for you? That guy looks juicy in LD builds.

You make an excellent point about metagame calls: my meta is full of RUG, so my special threat needs to survive bolt. Hence, no Mirran Crusader or Vampire Nighthawk. Hero of Bladehold it is!

Honestly, if we you want a good 4-drop that lives through Bolt, go with Restoration Angel. Both Angel and Hero can get Dazed, but surprising a Delver is a big deal, and you can reset Stoneforge, Jötun Grunt (if you play it), and Sculler (if you want to switch cards), or, obviously, save a dude from removal. I ran three (along with three Aven Mindcensor) when I was playing a mono-white (non-D&T) build, and I enjoyed it. Also, it flies over the top of Tarmogoyf, which is important, and it carries a Jitte well.

As for Crusader, he's still sweet against RUG if you can protect him -- hence Mother of Runes. But running discard also gives you an idea of whether he'll live. Also, very importantly, note that Crusader kills in two swings with Jitte. Against a non-combo deck, dropping Mom into Stoneforge into Crusader is game over. Of course, that's living the dream...


Well, Sculler is quite nice, a good example for a hatebear: solid body, solid utility. what bugs me is, that he really shows his full potential within vial builds. dropping him in your opponents draw step feels like playing a clique. also, you run quite some cc2 drops, why dont you run vial at all?

im curious about your cc1 drops. you run 12 of them, not counting the StoPs because they are rather reactive. Never get into trouble what you drop first? I think familiar is a bit misplaced because it feels like another kind of controle, aside from discarding-controle. i may be wrong.

Yeah, Vial is great, especially with so many two-drops. I just don't know what I'd cut for it. You can play around counter magic to some degree, so even though the tempo boost is awesome and I love screwing counters, I don't like being down a card, especially if I draw multiples. I like Judge's Familiar in its place for now because I anticipate having a harder time against combo, but maybe that's incorrect. Like I said, flying is sweet, and its tax/counter ability really puts a deck like RUG in a bind. Then again, Vialing in the bird to counter a spell seems amazing. Maybe I could daringly go to 20 lands and cut two more cards to run three?

I haven't had trouble in casting the one-drops yet, but I'm still getting acclimated to this build. I have 16 ways for T1 W and 13 for T1 B.

Re: control / discard / disruption, I liked the current numbers because it's eight disruptive dudes (bird + Thalia), eight discard spells (Sculler + Thoughtseize), eight means of card advantage (Stoneforge + Confidant), four protectors (Mom), four beaters (Crusader), and then the removal and equipment. It seemed like a good balance, but it easily could be off. I like that bird, Thalia, and Crusader all wear Jitte like champs.

[scottjmorrow]

How has the ORLY owl been for you? That guy looks juicy in LD builds.

Oh, and the ORLY Owl seems solid, but I really haven't tested enough to know. (That's what this weekend is for!) I'm sure that s/he shines in LD builds, as you mentioned, so this isn't the most optimized home, but Thalia and Wasteland help. And I've gone back and forth on including a few Glowriders in the board for extra fun.

[Wilkin]

How has the ORLY owl been for you? That guy looks juicy in LD builds.

You make an excellent point about metagame calls: my meta is full of RUG, so my special threat needs to survive bolt. Hence, no Mirran Crusader or Vampire Nighthawk. Hero of Bladehold it is!

Considering Hero of Bladehold and Desecration Demon in my flex 2 slots. Lol, hoping Gatecrash gives me something good there. We'll see. I'm personally hoping for a WWBB 4/4 that when it comes into play destroys a mono colored permanent and has a "throwaway ability" like First strike.


Phyrexian Obliterator is in my current build. You can only really run him in a heavy black build. Against RUG or RU Delver, when I resolved him, it was gg. In one game against RU delver I had Obliterator equipped with Batterskull. Gain 9 life, thank you very much. Against creature decks he's insane. Sure there's always STP or Path to worry about but if they don't.... I beat affinity with him with SOFI on it, it didn't matter that he drew Etched Champion for 3 turns as they promptly died to the SOFI activation.

[Rizso]

For scary finishers i prefair planeswalkers elspeth / sorin in a token version. Havent been able to pickup deathrites into the deck yet as im quite focused on standard atm. Also waiting a bit til i can get foiled out deathrites shamans :P

[JanoschEausH]

Hello guys,

i have been silently reading this thread so far, but now i would like to contribute my personal list of DGA or better BW-Stoneblade. Some people were recently arguing about Mirran Crusader, a card which i am really fond of. I think Mirran Crusader represents a formidable clock in the actual metagame, if you can protect him from red sources.

My build is kind of different, compared to most of the lists presented here, because i don't play a lot of tokens and no Liliana. I simply feel that tokens are much too slow right now, and whithout Lingering Souls i find it difficult to +1 Liliana reliably. My metagame is full of Maverick, Omni-Tell, RUG and some other combo decks, which led me to playing said Mirran Crusader and Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. The latter seems to play very well with my creature base, but can be a pain in the ass when casting Vindicate.
Nevertheless, i am really happy with my list and strongly recommend you try out Mirran Crusader + MoR + Thalia.

BW-Stoneblade

Artifact
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of War and Peace

Creatures
4x Dark Confidant
3x Mirran Crusader
4x Mother of Runes
2x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

Instant
4x Swords to Plowshares

Land
2x Isolated Chapel
1x Karakas
4x Marsh Flats
4x Plains
2x Scrubland
4x Swamp
4x Wasteland
2x Windswept Heath

Planeswalker
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Sorceries
3x Hymn to Tourach
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Vindicate


Sideboard
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Rest in Peace
2x Enlightened Tutor
3x Extirpate
2x Zealous Persecution
1x Hymn to Tourach
2x Perish

Notes: 2x Isolated Chapel are budget reasons, but they work well for me. Some might think Thalia interferes with my numerous Spells, which is true to some point, but which is also the reason i run 23 lands and the full set of Wasteland. Wasteland + Thalia + Vindicate are really good in terms of mana denial.
I could imagine taking out Thalia and adding more discard, or maybe Aven Mindscensor. But for now i will be settling with this list and hopefully play it to some success in the next few upcoming tournaments in my area.

[Rizso]

With a such humanbased creature base you should really play with a couple of cavern of souls. Do you know whats better then a thalia? An uncountable thalia! I would change you mana base thats for sure.

6 fetchlands
4 scrubland
1 Karakas
3 Cavern of souls
4 Wastelands
2 Plains
2 Swamp

Feel that 22 lands is more then enough. ANd change the hymns to an other 1cc discard spell like cabal therapy or thoughseize. Its better for the mana as well as its easier to play arround daze, spell pierce, snare etc.

[scottjmorrow]

Hello guys,

i have been silently reading this thread so far, but now i would like to contribute my personal list of DGA or better BW-Stoneblade. Some people were recently arguing about Mirran Crusader, a card which i am really fond of. I think Mirran Crusader represents a formidable clock in the actual metagame, if you can protect him from red sources.

My build is kind of different, compared to most of the lists presented here, because i don't play a lot of tokens and no Liliana. I simply feel that tokens are much too slow right now, and whithout Lingering Souls i find it difficult to +1 Liliana reliably. My metagame is full of Maverick, Omni-Tell, RUG and some other combo decks, which led me to playing said Mirran Crusader and Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. The latter seems to play very well with my creature base, but can be a pain in the ass when casting Vindicate.
Nevertheless, i am really happy with my list and strongly recommend you try out Mirran Crusader + MoR + Thalia.

...

Notes: 2x Isolated Chapel are budget reasons, but they work well for me. Some might think Thalia interferes with my numerous Spells, which is true to some point, but which is also the reason i run 23 lands and the full set of Wasteland. Wasteland + Thalia + Vindicate are really good in terms of mana denial.
I could imagine taking out Thalia and adding more discard, or maybe Aven Mindscensor. But for now i will be settling with this list and hopefully play it to some success in the next few upcoming tournaments in my area.

I'm glad to see someone else running Mirran Crusader. The guy is a beast. And it's funny that you made the comment about Thalia and Mindcensor, because I'm considering the exact same thing, perhaps with one Bitterblossom too. I always could run a mix of Hymns again. I'm just terrified of taking her out and then getting paired against Storm or Ad Nauseum.

Concerning my previous list and comments about four-drops, I ended up talking myself back into running Restoration Angel. I cut Sculler for regular discard and the Judge's Familiars for three Resto. and a Sword of War and Peace.

For the moment, here's my list, potentially with a swap for Thalia:

4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Mirran Crusader
3 Restoration Angel

4 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Batterskull

4 Scrubland
3 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
2 Arid Mesa
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Karakas
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Plains
2 Swamp

SB
2 Spectral Lynx
1 Path to Exile
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pithing Needle
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Rest in Peace
1 Warmth
1 Serenity
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Rule of Law

I went back to four equipment both because I like having plenty and because I added Restoration Angel, which can reset Stoneforge. I might be living on the edge with 21 mana sources...

[Rizso]

I'm glad to see someone else running Mirran Crusader. The guy is a beast. And it's funny that you made the comment about Thalia and Mindcensor, because I'm considering the exact same thing, perhaps with one Bitterblossom too. I always could run a mix of Hymns again. I'm just terrified of taking her out and then getting paired against Storm or Ad Nauseum.

Concerning my previous list and comments about four-drops, I ended up talking myself back into running Restoration Angel. I cut Sculler for regular discard and the Judge's Familiars for three Resto. and a Sword of War and Peace.

For the moment, here's my list, potentially with a swap for Thalia:

4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Mirran Crusader
3 Restoration Angel

4 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Batterskull

4 Scrubland
3 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
2 Arid Mesa
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Karakas
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Plains
2 Swamp

SB
2 Spectral Lynx
1 Path to Exile
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pithing Needle
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Rest in Peace
1 Warmth
1 Serenity
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Rule of Law

I went back to four equipment both because I like having plenty and because I added Restoration Angel, which can reset Stoneforge. I might be living on the edge with 21 mana sources...



16 humans and no cavern of souls. You should really try out them, the land is insane. Uncounterable moms and bobs will win games.

[scottjmorrow]

16 humans and no cavern of souls. You should really try out them, the land is insane. Uncounterable moms and bobs will win games.

You have a good point. I might toss two in there. The drawback for colored spells is real, but at least those are all one mana and the artifacts are colorless (obviously). Also, nothing in my sideboard requires more than one colored mana. Thanks for the suggestion.

[Wilkin]

For scary finishers i prefair planeswalkers elspeth / sorin in a token version. Havent been able to pickup deathrites into the deck yet as im quite focused on standard atm. Also waiting a bit til i can get foiled out deathrites shamans :P

I used to run Elspeth and for the most part she was awesome. My meta eventually played more Spell Pierce and Sulfur Elemental. Not specifically for me of course but the splash damage hurt.

[scottjmorrow]

I used to run Elspeth and for the most part she was awesome. My meta eventually played more Spell Pierce and Sulfur Elemental. Not specifically for me of course but the splash damage hurt.

I like Elspeth, especially with Mirran Crusader, but I've found her to be underwhelming at times. Maybe I just haven't given her enough of a chance. Jumping a dude with Jitte is real nice.

[JanoschEausH]

Yes, i agree! My manabase is pretty aweful. But sadly, i don't have the money for another pair of Scrublands or Caverns (seriously that land is costy and is only played in goblins...) I will be testing it though!
I like my hymns, but they are really bad with Thalia... Probably i should replace them with Duress or more Inquisitions. I will be trying that, too!

@scottjmorrow: Regarding Elspeth, i love her too combined with Mirran Crusader and i felt like my MU against Control was getting really poor without her. Elspeth just kills Jace in every aspect. That planeswalker is a beast and by far the second best after JTMS. So i am sticking with her. But i can see your point. Sometimes she is just a fat CMC4, which rots in your hand after several Wastelands or so...

[Wasteland]

I really think the developement of this deck is going into the wrong direction... Lingering souls was the card that made the deck playable again, since its great against control-strategies, flyers are excellent equipment-carriers and beneath that the tokens have a good synergy with cabal therapy as well...
Lists that do not use souls but critters like Thalia (wich is good vs. combo, i know that) and mirran crusaders (wtf? This card is awful without exalted as long as it has no equipment on it) won't win major tournaments, simply because they are too fair - don't get me wrong, they might be funny to play but you can't expect to win vs. fast aggro decks with cc4 angels that loose vs. tarmogoyfs... Nor will you win against decks like nic fit, that clear the board 1 time with pernicious deed and play fatties after...
Here now my list on which i worked for more then 3 months and which was quite successful in Nuremberg (mostly 4:1, sometimes 4:0:1 but never worse then 3:2 with older, worse configurations of the deck):

"Sp.e.c.t.r.e" (special executive for counter-intelligence, terrorism, revenge and extortion - tribute to James Bond :-) )

//lands (21)
4x scrubland
4x marsh flats
2x polluted delta
1x flooded strand
4x wasteland
3x swamp
1x plains
1x godless shrine (8. fetchland possible if you dont like this land)
1x karakas

//creatures (11)
4x dark confidant
4x stoneforge mystig
3x mother of runes (tried several options, from bitterblossom over nighthawks - mothers were the most solid card, exspecially with dark confidant)

//other spells (28)
4x lingering souls
4x swords to plowshares
4x inquisition of kozilek
3x cabal therapy (thoughtseizse possible in this slot but i still think therapy is the better card with tokens)
2x zealous persecution (great card in any creature-based matchup, in worst cases it deals some extra-damage with souls or imprints into =>)
2x chrome mox (gives acceleration, since you dont want to draw a second i think 2 is the correct amount of them)
2x sensei's divining top (great card with OR without confidant, wished i had 3. in the deck but no place for it...)
2x liliana of the veil (nice synergy with lingering souls, even without that 1 of the best cards vs. control and combo)
2x sorin, lord of inistrad (super flexible, since it creates jumpblocker OR helps to finish games fast with the emblem
2x umezawa's jitte (earlier i had 3 persecutions and only 1 jitte but it proofed to be too good to have another of theese after the first traded with the 1 of your opponent)
1x batterskull

//sideboard (15)
3x aethersworn canonist
3x surgical extraction
2x rest in peace (a bit anti-synergetic with lingering souls, but way too good not to play against dredge, reanimator and even canadian (as long as it does not get stifled))
3x oblivion ring (i just hate omni-show, without this MU theese slots would probably be vindicates)
2x perish
2x duress

Some words for the matchups:
Generally, the deck should crush any other creature-based deck or have at least positive mu's against them: Naming Maverick, Goblins, Elves, Canadian, death and taxes etc.. Problematic seams to be primary UW Terminus, against which i must admit the deck looses quite often, but as long, as they have no counterbalance online, dark confidant and the own planeswalkers can still make the day (not to forget a massive disruption via souls / cabal therapy).
Against storm-decks the matchup preboard is slightly negative (i admit, here thalias would be great but they fit not really in the deck-concent), postboard the matchup gets much better, thanks to additional discard and the canonists. Same is true for the omnishow-matchup.
After all i think the sideboard can be built very meta-dependant, but here the combination of black and white offers great options for any metagame.
For any questions about the deck, its matchups or special card-choices (hoping for gatecrash to make this a tier 1 deck :-) ) PM me or post in this threat.

Greetz from Germany

Marius Hausmann

[Valech]

I really think the developement of this deck is going into the wrong direction... Lingering souls was the card that made the deck playable again, since its great against control-strategies, flyers are excellent equipment-carriers and beneath that the tokens have a good synergy with cabal therapy as well...
Lists that do not use souls but critters like Thalia (wich is good vs. combo, i know that) and mirran crusaders (wtf? This card is awful without exalted as long as it has no equipment on it) won't win major tournaments, simply because they are too fair - don't get me wrong, they might be funny to play but you can't expect to win vs. fast aggro decks with cc4 angels that loose vs. tarmogoyfs... Nor will you win against decks like nic fit, that clear the board 1 time with pernicious deed and play fatties after...
Here now my list on which i worked for more then 3 months and which was quite successful in Nuremberg (mostly 4:1, sometimes 4:0:1 but never worse then 3:2 with older, worse configurations of the deck):

"Sp.e.c.t.r.e" (special executive for counter-intelligence, terrorism, revenge and extortion - tribute to James Bond :-) )

//lands (21)
4x scrubland
4x marsh flats
2x polluted delta
1x flooded strand
4x wasteland
3x swamp
1x plains
1x godless shrine (8. fetchland possible if you dont like this land)
1x karakas

//creatures (11)
4x dark confidant
4x stoneforge mystig
3x mother of runes (tried several options, from bitterblossom over nighthawks - mothers were the most solid card, exspecially with dark confidant)

//other spells (28)
4x lingering souls
4x swords to plowshares
4x inquisition of kozilek
3x cabal therapy (thoughtseizse possible in this slot but i still think therapy is the better card with tokens)
2x zealous persecution (great card in any creature-based matchup, in worst cases it deals some extra-damage with souls or imprints into =>)
2x chrome mox (gives acceleration, since you dont want to draw a second i think 2 is the correct amount of them)
2x sensei's divining top (great card with OR without confidant, wished i had 3. in the deck but no place for it...)
2x liliana of the veil (nice synergy with lingering souls, even without that 1 of the best cards vs. control and combo)
2x sorin, lord of inistrad (super flexible, since it creates jumpblocker OR helps to finish games fast with the emblem
2x umezawa's jitte (earlier i had 3 persecutions and only 1 jitte but it proofed to be too good to have another of theese after the first traded with the 1 of your opponent)
1x batterskull

//sideboard (15)
3x aethersworn canonist
3x surgical extraction
2x rest in peace (a bit anti-synergetic with lingering souls, but way too good not to play against dredge, reanimator and even canadian (as long as it does not get stifled))
3x oblivion ring (i just hate omni-show, without this MU theese slots would probably be vindicates)
2x perish
2x duress

Some words for the matchups:
Generally, the deck should crush any other creature-based deck or have at least positive mu's against them: Naming Maverick, Goblins, Elves, Canadian, death and taxes etc.. Problematic seams to be primary UW Terminus, against which i must admit the deck looses quite often, but as long, as they have no counterbalance online, dark confidant and the own planeswalkers can still make the day (not to forget a massive disruption via souls / cabal therapy).
Against storm-decks the matchup preboard is slightly negative (i admit, here thalias would be great but they fit not really in the deck-concent), postboard the matchup gets much better, thanks to additional discard and the canonists. Same is true for the omnishow-matchup.
After all i think the sideboard can be built very meta-dependant, but here the combination of black and white offers great options for any metagame.
For any questions about the deck, its matchups or special card-choices (hoping for gatecrash to make this a tier 1 deck :-) ) PM me or post in this threat.

Greetz from Germany

Marius Hausmann




I really enjoyed reading what you are saying about DGA. Not only because your list is very similar to mine, but also because your conclusions about cardchoices seem to fit my experiences.
Now, I´d like to know a bit more about a few cards you are or aren´t using. First of all: Bitterblossom. I experienced, that an early resolved Blossom wins a lot of games against controledecks, which are about a third of the decks, that are played in my area. At its worst it produces cheap flying chumpblockers and therapy fodder, at its best it brings up an army of flying jitte-carriers. Any other thoughts about it but "mother was better"? I´d really aprecciate.
I never was sure about zealous persecution. Sometimes it won games, sometimes it just get stuck in my hand. It roughly gains you a round against controle or combo and is more like a winmorecard against aggro. Nice imprint for mox thou, i admit.
In how many games do you want to see/draw a second jitte? Does it justify the fourth mystic?
Are you satisfied with 2 lilianas or would you add one if you had the space?

And finally, about your sb. What do you think about angel of despair instead of o ring if its mostly against omnitell? Do you prefer o ring because of its versatility? And what do you think about Dystopia > Perish?

[TPurcell]

I really enjoyed reading what you are saying about DGA. Not only because your list is very similar to mine, but also because your conclusions about cardchoices seem to fit my experiences.
Now, I´d like to know a bit more about a few cards you are or aren´t using. First of all: Bitterblossom. I experienced, that an early resolved Blossom wins a lot of games against controledecks, which are about a third of the decks, that are played in my area. At its worst it produces cheap flying chumpblockers and therapy fodder, at its best it brings up an army of flying jitte-carriers. Any other thoughts about it but "mother was better"? I´d really aprecciate.
I never was sure about zealous persecution. Sometimes it won games, sometimes it just get stuck in my hand. It roughly gains you a round against controle or combo and is more like a winmorecard against aggro. Nice imprint for mox thou, i admit.
In how many games do you want to see/draw a second jitte? Does it justify the fourth mystic?
Are you satisfied with 2 lilianas or would you add one if you had the space?

And finally, about your sb. What do you think about angel of despair instead of o ring if its mostly against omnitell? Do you prefer o ring because of its versatility? And what do you think about Dystopia > Perish?

I also play a remarkably similar list and was wondering how you guys do against MONO RED Burn. I went as far as putting in 4 copies of Leyline of Sanctity to the sideboard to have a decent game 2 and 3 but still find that this match up is not in out favour. Oh and I go with Angel of Despair in my side vs Omnitell, and even with the possibility of Dark Confident hitting it and taking 7, I wouldnt play without 3 copies in the side.

[Valech]

I also play a remarkably similar list and was wondering how you guys do against MONO RED Burn. I went as far as putting in 4 copies of Leyline of Sanctity to the sideboard to have a decent game 2 and 3 but still find that this match up is not in out favour. Oh and I go with Angel of Despair in my side vs Omnitell, and even with the possibility of Dark Confident hitting it and taking 7, I wouldnt play without 3 copies in the side.

Vs Burn it really depends on how they draw. usually they get me to approx. 5 until im able to recover. if they have significant good hands (what happens rather often with burn) they win. because burn is quite simple to play and to understand, it´s easy to say: if they run out of fuel before you run out of life chances are good, that you will win. we have a few options to recover life: jitte, batterskull, sorin, and nothing bugs a burnplayer more than lifegain. disrupt them early through discard (i run 3 duress sb + 4 inqui/3therapy maindeck) and fetch for basics to be immune to price of progress.

[JanoschEausH]

Hey guys i just won my last local tournament with BW-Stoneblade. (referring to this (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?2597-Deck-Deadguy-Ale-(B-w-Confidant)&p=680287&viewfull=1#post680287) list)
I just replaced the Hymn to Tourachs with Duress and one Inquisition of Kozilek. It worked really well!

It was only 4 Rounds, but we have some really good players there (a guy going 11-0 at Day 1 at Grand Prix Ghent for example), so it wasn't a cakewalk! ;)

Round 1 vs. Team America (BUG Delver) 2:0

Two easy games. He wasn't able to stop my Dark Confidant in G1 and was beaten down by a Mirran Crusader with Jitte. (This guy is really unfair against BUG...)
In G2 i was able to strip his hand with alot of discard and colorscrew him with Wastelands and Vindicates.

Round 2 vs. Bant 2:0

Two easy games again. Discard takes his threats and Elspeth goes all the way through.
G2 was more of a fight. He beats me down with an exalted Dryad Arbor because i want to keep my Mother of Runes up for protection. Elspeth enters the battlefield and wins from there. He couldn't play his own Elspeth because of my totally random Phyrexian Revoker on "Noble Hierarch" in Turn 2, which payed me later in the game by screwing his mana when he really needed it.

Round 3 vs. Smallpox 1:1 draw

My opponent is a good friend of mine and we both are the only people with 2:0. We decide to draw and play for fun.
I lost this match 1:2 and i have to say that this matchup is a real grind. If you can stick a planeswalker or more than 2 creatures against Pox, you are pretty safe. It sounds easy, but it isn't. In the end, the win is a matter of topdecks, which i lost eventually.

Round 4 vs. Goblin Bombardement 2:1

This guy plays a really strange token-based combo deck, which uses Spontaneous Generation, Fecundity and Goblin Bombardment to kill you really fast.
G1, i won easy with double wastelanding his Duals and landing a Thalia.
G2, i was stuck with 6 black cards in my hand without finding a black source after several turns. He comboes me around turn 5
G3 was really grindy again. I could get ahead with Phyrexian Revoker on his Bombardements and a Sword of War and Peace which dealt him 6-7 extra dmg per hit.

Of course such a small tournament is not representative at all, but maybe it could be helpful material for those of you considering Thalia and Mirran Crusader maindeck. I am really happy with my aggressive creature build and would never play a token-based DGA over this at any point right now.

[Wasteland]

Thx for the interest about the deck. Here some statements about the cardchoices:
For bitterblossom: I tested this card and it never convinced me. Primary its a 2mana card that has no impact on the game as it comes into play - you have way better cards in the 2mana slot to play second turn or 1. turn with chrome mox. Mother of runes makes the deck faster, since it is a card that most decks HAVE to handle immediatly, if they don't want to loose vs. a protected dark confidant. Beneath that mother is a card that allows a fast flashback of cabal therapy which might be important in certain matchups. The only thing bitterblossom did in the tournaments i played was either imprint into chrome mox to cast something better OR make me loose vs. canadian with goyfs that got pumped by enchantment AND tribal...
For zealous persecution: i think its a great card in the momentary metagame - sure you can fill the slots with other cards but it was never dead when i hat it: in best cases it killed up to 2 hierarchs 1 mother and 1 thalia, in worst cases it dealt 2 dmg more with lingering souls (beneath that it's always funny to see enemy faces "fall down" that play enchantress, which gets killed by the persecution :-) (of course there are some matchups whare it will be boarded out but i think there are much more mu's, where it facerolls the enemy...
For the second Jitte: Thats 1 choice i would neverever take back. In nearly every matchup the Jitte wins the game and even with a drawn second one its normally no problem to have it in your hand, since the 1 on dhe board wins the game alone.
For the 2 Lilianas: I'd rather have a 3 one since the card is just great but i just don't have enough place :-)
Now for the sideboard!
Perish clearly over dystopia. It kills elves and it does not loose to qasali pride-mage while 1-2 knights kill you...
For the oblivion rings: you are certainly right that the angel provides you with a clock vs. show and tell but oblivion ring is much more flexible - you can board it in vs. miracle etc., while the angel is only good for ONE matchup. (beneath that i dislike the option to take 7 dmg via dark confidant, even vs. omnishow...)

[Valech]

Of course such a small tournament is not representative at all, but maybe it could be helpful material for those of you considering Thalia and Mirran Crusader maindeck. I am really happy with my aggressive creature build and would never play a token-based DGA over this at any point right now.


I think there are two directions in which DGA is developing. On the one hand the more agressive creature build with - sometimes - vials and on the other hand the slightly more controlly token-build. Both have their flaws. I think it depends on your own preferences and playstyle, which kind you chose. I for example like to win mid- or lategame. Just because it´s a good feeling to literally take over controle. And because playing agressive decks feel very head-throug-wallish to me. Again, just my very humble opinion.
Despite this quite opposing decks, I hope for a few nice cards in Gatecrash. Like one of the posters before me, I´m very curious about the orzhov Charm and perhaps a new slick discard spell.

[Wilkin]

Thx for the interest about the deck. Here some statements about the cardchoices:
For bitterblossom: I tested this card and it never convinced me. Primary its a 2mana card that has no impact on the game as it comes into play - you have way better cards in the 2mana slot to play second turn or 1. turn with chrome mox. Mother of runes makes the deck faster, since it is a card that most decks HAVE to handle immediatly, if they don't want to loose vs. a protected dark confidant. Beneath that mother is a card that allows a fast flashback of cabal therapy which might be important in certain matchups. The only thing bitterblossom did in the tournaments i played was either imprint into chrome mox to cast something better OR make me loose vs. canadian with goyfs that got pumped by enchantment AND tribal...
For zealous persecution: i think its a great card in the momentary metagame - sure you can fill the slots with other cards but it was never dead when i hat it: in best cases it killed up to 2 hierarchs 1 mother and 1 thalia, in worst cases it dealt 2 dmg more with lingering souls (beneath that it's always funny to see enemy faces "fall down" that play enchantress, which gets killed by the persecution :-) (of course there are some matchups whare it will be boarded out but i think there are much more mu's, where it facerolls the enemy...
For the second Jitte: Thats 1 choice i would neverever take back. In nearly every matchup the Jitte wins the game and even with a drawn second one its normally no problem to have it in your hand, since the 1 on dhe board wins the game alone.
For the 2 Lilianas: I'd rather have a 3 one since the card is just great but i just don't have enough place :-)
Now for the sideboard!
Perish clearly over dystopia. It kills elves and it does not loose to qasali pride-mage while 1-2 knights kill you...
For the oblivion rings: you are certainly right that the angel provides you with a clock vs. show and tell but oblivion ring is much more flexible - you can board it in vs. miracle etc., while the angel is only good for ONE matchup. (beneath that i dislike the option to take 7 dmg via dark confidant, even vs. omnishow...)

I agree with the Perish over Dystopia, mainly because it affects the board faster. Plus there aren't a ton of white/green enchantments that are devastating...it's mostly about the green creatures...

[godofallu]

Is Mirran Crusader really better than Lingering Souls? I remember back in standard I would grab SOWP over batterskull since Crusader was in hand and going to be played next turn. Then he would get killed/countered and the entire game was ruined.

Souls resists discard, have natural evasion, and work better with liliana and cabal therapy.

Also I am assuming Vampire Nighthawk has been tried by someone. Any thoughts on it over vindicate? Both are functionally 3 drop removal.

[Wasteland]

I don't think you can compare nighthawk with vindicate... Nighthawk isn't that much removal (it can only kill creatures and can be killed itself) but a excellent equipment-carrier, while vindicate hits all permanents, but will never carry an equipment...
Some more contra for Dystopia: You don't really want to sacrifice your own white permanents (stoneforge / souls-token / Sorin (!) )

[ForlornEgoist]

@Mirran Crusader: Personally, I always preferred Phyrexian Crusader considering the static Pro R/W means that not only will it punch through KotR/Mom/Goblins but is also immune to the major forms of removal in this format: burn/StP. Albeit green creatures are still a problem as are counters, however being pro-removal as well as deal with Gobos and KotR all day is nothing at which to snuff. I'm not particularly advocating either to be run over LS, however, Phyrexian seems to have more benefits. Albeit the Infect is quite annoying, however when running SFM variants a Crusader + equip can mean a 2-3 turn clock.

@ Dystopia: I'm not sure what MU people are using this for.... honestly the only time I've ever considered this a noteworthy card was several years ago during CounterTop's prevalence when Enchantress still liked to appear in tournaments. Dystopia is an excellent card choice against Enchantress as the Upkeep cost is essentially negligble. That having been said, with the amount of burn, with the lack of Enchantress, as well as the newer pool of cards to choose from, I hardly see any reason to be running Dystopia in a SB anymore.

ForlornEgoist

[Rizso]

Just got my foiled playset of Deathrite shaman, so its time to experiment with them. Do think im gonna run 4 shamans and 2 moxes.

[Oiolosse]

Just got my foiled playset of Deathrite shaman, so its time to experiment with them. Do think im gonna run 4 shamans and 2 moxes.

DO you plan on splashing green? I haven't played too many games since I've added the Shamans but considering all of the lifeloss I take I have found that tapping for +2 life would be awesome. I like my mana base and don't want to splash for green...unless a miser bayou? Let me know if you run into the same dilemma.

[Rizso]

Planning to only have a bayou for green mana.

[Valech]

I tried a greensplash and it was only mediocre. I run 8 Fetchlands of which 4 are Verdant Catacombs and simply added a Bayou and cut a swamp. I mainly splashed for Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay. My Conclusion was, that Deathrite Shaman does NOT accelerate mana, for our most important spells are cmc2. He often eats removal cause somehow a lot of people are scared of him. His recurring 2 dmg/life is quite okay and he turns horrible round 1 match-ups like dredge into winnable match-ups - winnable, not easy nor surely winnable. In the end i removed him from the deck. I figured other cards would fit better: A second jitte, perhaps moms, perhaps blossoms, perhaps persecutions. He was okay, but as we all know, "okay" is just the little sister of "bad".
Abrupt Decay was a bit longer in my deck. Mostly you traded stability for utility - means: When i drew it and had access to G it was great. Turns CB match-ups into gold. The problem is, that G is not optional for Abrupt Decay like it is for Deathrite Shaman. If your Bayou gets wasted (or you didn´t fetch for Duals the first few rounds, cause you know that your opponent runs Wastelands) you will have 2-3 useless cards in your deck. After some testing I also dropped Abrupt Decay again, fixed my Manabse (added a Karakas) and I´m currently very happy with my deck´s performance.
But I encourage everyone to test that/those cards themselves, I´m always open for other results.

[TPurcell]

I tried a greensplash and it was only mediocre. I run 8 Fetchlands of which 4 are Verdant Catacombs and simply added a Bayou and cut a swamp. I mainly splashed for Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay. My Conclusion was, that Deathrite Shaman does NOT accelerate mana, for our most important spells are cmc2. He often eats removal cause somehow a lot of people are scared of him. His recurring 2 dmg/life is quite okay and he turns horrible round 1 match-ups like dredge into winnable match-ups - winnable, not easy nor surely winnable. In the end i removed him from the deck. I figured other cards would fit better: A second jitte, perhaps moms, perhaps blossoms, perhaps persecutions. He was okay, but as we all know, "okay" is just the little sister of "bad".
Abrupt Decay was a bit longer in my deck. Mostly you traded stability for utility - means: When i drew it and had access to G it was great. Turns CB match-ups into gold. The problem is, that G is not optional for Abrupt Decay like it is for Deathrite Shaman. If your Bayou gets wasted (or you didn´t fetch for Duals the first few rounds, cause you know that your opponent runs Wastelands) you will have 2-3 useless cards in your deck. After some testing I also dropped Abrupt Decay again, fixed my Manabse (added a Karakas) and I´m currently very happy with my deck´s performance.
But I encourage everyone to test that/those cards themselves, I´m always open for other results.

Ive tested with Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman but had to drastically change my mana base and drop the chrome moxes for more mana. If you want to give the green splash a try (I actually run 4 decay and 4 shaman now) give this mana base a try.

4 Bayou
4 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 swamp
1 plains
4 wastelands
4 verdant catacombs
4 mash flats

Having the 4 Decays in the main actually give you more of an edge against RUG and going with a little more than just a splash of green opens the door up to throw a Sylvan Library or 2 in the main , and a better selection of cards for the side. Ive had great success and unless gatecrash gives us some stronger W/B options then I think the green splash is needed to keep this deck more competitive in an increasingly dominate RUG Delver META

[Valech]

Ive tested with Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman but had to drastically change my mana base and drop the chrome moxes for more mana. If you want to give the green splash a try (I actually run 4 decay and 4 shaman now) give this mana base a try.

4 Bayou
4 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 swamp
1 plains
4 wastelands
4 verdant catacombs
4 mash flats

Having the 4 Decays in the main actually give you more of an edge against RUG and going with a little more than just a splash of green opens the door up to throw a Sylvan Library or 2 in the main , and a better selection of cards for the side. Ive had great success and unless gatecrash gives us some stronger W/B options then I think the green splash is needed to keep this deck more competitive in an increasingly dominate RUG Delver META




So, I do see the purpose of Abrupt Decay. But for what reason do you run Shamans? For Manaacceleration, damage/life or to hate graveyard-based decks?
Also, dropping both Moxens would again slower the deck (which sometimes formerly was reffered to as BW Tempo) to a point, where real quick, aggro-oriented Decks could easily feast on it. More than unsure bout that.
Last but not least, adding additional green cards like perhaps Library or Deed would give the Deck another playstyle. I don´t mean another playstyle like "I-dont-run-Hymns-anymore" but more like "This-aint-Deadguy-anymore".

[TPurcell]

So, I do see the purpose of Abrupt Decay. But for what reason do you run Shamans? For Manaacceleration, damage/life or to hate graveyard-based decks?
Also, dropping both Moxens would again slower the deck (which sometimes formerly was reffered to as BW Tempo) to a point, where real quick, aggro-oriented Decks could easily feast on it. More than unsure bout that.
Last but not least, adding additional green cards like perhaps Library or Deed would give the Deck another playstyle. I don´t mean another playstyle like "I-dont-run-Hymns-anymore" but more like "This-aint-Deadguy-anymore".

As my build sits right now, it looks similar to more of a Team Italia build using green in place red but to be honest the current token builds of deadguy is essentially Team Italia without the red anyway so to say that I'm not staying true to the original idea of the deck could have been said to Rizzo who made the token style Deadguy a viable option on this form in the first place. Personally I think Rizzo actually made Deadguy viable and exciting again but to each their own.

Here is a team Italia build

4 Dark Confidant
4 Grim Lavamancer
3 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Ajani Vengeant

1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Chrome Mox

1 Plains
1 Plateau
1 Swamp
3 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland

here is a token Deadguy build

4x scrubland
4x marsh flats
2x polluted delta
1x flooded strand
4x wasteland
3x swamp
1x plains
1x godless shrine
1x karakas

//creatures (11)
4x dark confidant
4x stoneforge mystig
3x mother of runes

//other spells (28)
4x lingering souls
4x swords to plowshares
4x inquisition of kozilek
3x cabal therapy
2x zealous persecution
2x chrome mox
2x sensei's divining top
2x liliana of the veil
2x sorin, lord of inistrad
2x umezawa's jitte
1x batterskull

Now doest the token Deadguy list look similar to Team Iltlia without the splash of red? My Token Deadguy is similar to this Team Itilia build only changing Lavamancers for Deathrite shamans and vindicates with Decays. Ive made a few other changes to accommodate my playstyle but that is essentially the foundation.
To answer your 1st question, I really went into using Deathrite just to see how he would do, but he really is like the swiss army knife of the deck. He's not excellent at anything but he does so much very well that your opponent will not have him sit on your side of the table long. He's life gain, he's a clock in a long game, and he's a mana fixer (not mana acceleration). He's a good way to have a lavamancer/Ooze like effects in your deck and also a good way to draw removal out of your opponents hand so they are not using it on your Stoneforge or your BOB. The decision to drop Moxes was a hard one. To often I was trying to actually trick myself into thinking that this deck should be played out rather fast and having a first turn BOB, Stoneforge, or even dropping a Sorin a turn earlier was essential. However the more and more I played the deck I found myself looking at the card I used to imprint on Mox late in a game and said to myself "that ENTER CARD NAME HERE" would be pretty handy right now. The fact of the matter is that token deadguy plays a long game as often as a quick one, and to have some of your gas stuck behind a mox seems pretty pointless later in the game and you cant tell me that that added acceleration on turn one will be enough to tip the scales in your favour dramatically against any of the current tier one decks out there. Against rug a turn one BOB or Stoneforge just means his 1st play is a lightning bolt rather than a delver. Anyway thats my 2 cents. Call the deck Team Deadguy if you so choose hahaha

[TPurcell]

As my build sits right now, it looks similar to more of a Team Italia build using green in place red but to be honest the current token builds of deadguy is essentially Team Italia without the red anyway so to say that I'm not staying true to the original idea of the deck could have been said to Rizzo who made the token style Deadguy a viable option on this form in the first place. Personally I think Rizzo actually made Deadguy viable and exciting again but to each their own.

Here is a team Italia build

4 Dark Confidant
4 Grim Lavamancer
3 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Ajani Vengeant

1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Chrome Mox

1 Plains
1 Plateau
1 Swamp
3 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland

here is a token Deadguy build

4x scrubland
4x marsh flats
2x polluted delta
1x flooded strand
4x wasteland
3x swamp
1x plains
1x godless shrine
1x karakas

//creatures (11)
4x dark confidant
4x stoneforge mystig
3x mother of runes

//other spells (28)
4x lingering souls
4x swords to plowshares
4x inquisition of kozilek
3x cabal therapy
2x zealous persecution
2x chrome mox
2x sensei's divining top
2x liliana of the veil
2x sorin, lord of inistrad
2x umezawa's jitte
1x batterskull

Now doest the token Deadguy list look similar to Team Iltlia without the splash of red? My Token Deadguy is similar to this Team Itilia build only changing Lavamancers for Deathrite shamans and vindicates with Decays. Ive made a few other changes to accommodate my playstyle but that is essentially the foundation.
To answer your 1st question, I really went into using Deathrite just to see how he would do, but he really is like the swiss army knife of the deck. He's not excellent at anything but he does so much very well that your opponent will not have him sit on your side of the table long. He's life gain, he's a clock in a long game, and he's a mana fixer (not mana acceleration). He's a good way to have a lavamancer/Ooze like effects in your deck and also a good way to draw removal out of your opponents hand so they are not using it on your Stoneforge or your BOB. The decision to drop Moxes was a hard one. To often I was trying to actually trick myself into thinking that this deck should be played out rather fast and having a first turn BOB, Stoneforge, or even dropping a Sorin a turn earlier was essential. However the more and more I played the deck I found myself looking at the card I used to imprint on Mox late in a game and said to myself "that ENTER CARD NAME HERE" would be pretty handy right now. The fact of the matter is that token deadguy plays a long game as often as a quick one, and to have some of your gas stuck behind a mox seems pretty pointless later in the game and you cant tell me that that added acceleration on turn one will be enough to tip the scales in your favour dramatically against any of the current tier one decks out there. Against rug a turn one BOB or Stoneforge just means his 1st play is a lightning bolt rather than a delver. Anyway thats my 2 cents. Call the deck Team Deadguy if you so choose hahaha


Heres a Team Italia list that came in 3rd at an SCG open that looks even closer to a token deadguy build

Artifacts
1 Batterskull
2 Sensei's Divining Top

Artifact Creatures
2 Tidehollow Sculler

Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Grim Lavamancer
3 Stoneforge Mystic

Instants
4 Swords to Plowshares

Legendary Artifacts
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Planeswalkers
3 Liliana of the Veil

Sorceries
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Lingering Souls
3 Thoughtseize
3 Vindicate

Basic Lands
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Lands
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
1 Plateau
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland

Team Deadguy perhaps? hahaha

[paladin3056]

Here's an interesting list from SCG:


Maindeck:

Artifacts
1 Batterskull
1 Chrome Mox
1 Sensei's Divining Top

Artifact Creatures
2 Tidehollow Sculler

Creatures
2 Aven Mindcensor
4 Dark Confidant
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Hero of Bladehold
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Stoneforge Mystic

Enchantments
2 Oblivion Ring

Instants
4 Swords to Plowshares

Legendary Artifacts
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Planeswalkers
4 Liliana of the Veil

Sorceries
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
3 Thoughtseize

Basic Lands
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Lands
2 Arid Mesa
1 Bayou
1 Godless Shrine
3 Isolated Chapel
4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
2 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard:
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gatekeeper of Malakir
1 Engineered Plague
1 Rest in Peace
1 Darkblast
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Perish

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=50521

A basic DGA build with the inclusion of Deathrite Shaman a full set of LotV and MD Oring (must be for the Show and Tell match up).

[Wilkin]

Yeah I saw that list from St.louis too.

So I tried 2 Hero of Bladehold today in a legacy tournament....went 3-1-1 in swiss to make top 8....and then promptly lose. lol. But Hero is the real deal. I used to try Obliterator but Hero won me games. In all of my 3 match wins, Hero of Bladehold won a game. A 1 turn clock in one instance since I already had Stoneforge Mystic and Dark Confidant on board (he was at 9 life).

Since my deck has a ton of removal, it's not out of the question to have Hero on an empty board or close to it. 7 damage and then 11 damage the next turn is pretty awesome.

The problem I had with Deadguy is that you can't really put them on a fast clock. Hero can do that.

[JanoschEausH]

I tested this list too, but i felt like it was a bit slow... It has no mana disruption in form of Wasteland, Thalia or Vindicate. Especially in a metagame, where 3-Color-Decks increase in popularity, mana denial is a really strong tool to win matches against bad matchups. You can clearly see on this list that it's creator loves random 1-offs. It may be personal preferance, but i think its better to concentrate on the important cards instead of throwing one exemplar of any card you like into the mix... I have to test Hero of Bladehold tho! This guy seems awesome in a creature-heavy build.

[Wilkin]

I tested this list too, but i felt like it was a bit slow... It has no mana disruption in form of Wasteland, Thalia or Vindicate. Especially in a metagame, where 3-Color-Decks increase in popularity, mana denial is a really strong tool to win matches against bad matchups. You can clearly see on this list that it's creator loves random 1-offs. It may be personal preferance, but i think its better to concentrate on the important cards instead of throwing one exemplar of any card you like into the mix... I have to test Hero of Bladehold tho! This guy seems awesome in a creature-heavy build.

I didn't test the exact Starcity build. I still love my wastelands. lol. I also like Vindicate and couldn't cut that either.

I just added 2 Heroes and a Deathrite Shaman to the deck. Shaman didn't do much. The highlight with Shaman is someone surgically extracted him. :D. I'm like sure, here's my hand and here's my library, that's the only one in the deck. The Heroes were awesome. A much faster clock and can be devastating as most Deadguy decks have other token generation....Bitterblossom, Lingering Souls, Elspeth, Or Sorin.

[JanoschEausH]

I am seriously considering Lingering Souls over Thalia, when i add Heroes of Bladehold. It will be weakening my combo matchup a lot, but in most cases a Thalia wont stop the comboman anyways. So im testing testing testing testing. And hoping for sweet stuff from Gatecrash :)

[igri_is_a_bk]

I dunno why you wouldn't play Bitterblossom right now. It's amazing against RUG and Miracles, which aren't going anywhere for a long time. I dunno why you'd play less than four SFM, either. I mean, Mirran Crusader? That's such a terrible trade.

This isn't the deck for Thalia. Most of the spells you play should be non-creature. They're just more powerful, and combo isn't bad with T1 and T2 discard. Thalia can stay on the sidelines.

[Wilkin]

I dunno why you wouldn't play Bitterblossom right now. It's amazing against RUG and Miracles, which aren't going anywhere for a long time. I dunno why you'd play less than four SFM, either. I mean, Mirran Crusader? That's such a terrible trade.

This isn't the deck for Thalia. Most of the spells you play should be non-creature. They're just more powerful, and combo isn't bad with T1 and T2 discard. Thalia can stay on the sidelines.

I still go with Bitterblossom over Lingering Souls because Souls is more mana intensive. And as you say it's better vs Miracles.

I don't like Thalia in this deck since we play so many noncreature spells. I used to play it in the board but i realize it ends up hurting me just as much. Also, whenever I faced Thalia, I found it really really annoying.

I run 3 Mystic. I don't go with four because we don't have Brainstorm to put a Batterskull back in the library....I really don't like situations where Mystic is just a squire. I guess I could run more equipment or run a Grunt (to recycle).

[Valech]

I still go with Bitterblossom over Lingering Souls because Souls is more mana intensive. And as you say it's better vs Miracles.

I don't like Thalia in this deck since we play so many noncreature spells. I used to play it in the board but i realize it ends up hurting me just as much. Also, whenever I faced Thalia, I found it really really annoying.

I run 3 Mystic. I don't go with four because we don't have Brainstorm to put a Batterskull back in the library....I really don't like situations where Mystic is just a squire. I guess I could run more equipment or run a Grunt (to recycle).


It really hurts me to say this, but I think LS is at the moment indeed more viable than BB. The huge disadvantage of BB is, that is has no direct impact on the game. The huge advantage of LS is, that they rarely will be countered. You are able to play around terminus and it has direct influence to the board. BB is a steady but slow threat, which, in the best case, grows. LS is an offensive threat and needs to be handled NOW.

@ Mystic: I play two Jittes and one Skull. Rarely have an obsolete Mystic in hand.

[Wilkin]

[QUOTE=Valech;685173]It really hurts me to say this, but I think LS is at the moment indeed more viable than BB. The huge disadvantage of BB is, that is has no direct impact on the game. The huge advantage of LS is, that they rarely will be countered. You are able to play around terminus and it has direct influence to the board. BB is a steady but slow threat, which, in the best case, grows. LS is an offensive threat and needs to be handled NOW.

@ Mystic: I play two Jittes and one Skull. Rarely have an obsolete Mystic in hand.[/

For sure, Souls is less likely to be countered and is something that needs to be dealt now. I find though that for my deck, it would add too many 3 drops cards in the deck. I already play Vindicates, Gatekeeper and Liliana. I find it hard in some games to reach 3 mana... I also used to play Hymn to Tourach but switched to single mana discard (mainly because of Misdirection) and found that to be really helpful in reducing the mana curve.

I notice some builds don't run Vindicate. I can understand not running a playset but having a catch all is too hard for me to pass up.

[Valech]

[QUOTE=Valech;685173]It really hurts me to say this, but I think LS is at the moment indeed more viable than BB. The huge disadvantage of BB is, that is has no direct impact on the game. The huge advantage of LS is, that they rarely will be countered. You are able to play around terminus and it has direct influence to the board. BB is a steady but slow threat, which, in the best case, grows. LS is an offensive threat and needs to be handled NOW.

@ Mystic: I play two Jittes and one Skull. Rarely have an obsolete Mystic in hand.[/

For sure, Souls is less likely to be countered and is something that needs to be dealt now. I find though that for my deck, it would add too many 3 drops cards in the deck. I already play Vindicates, Gatekeeper and Liliana. I find it hard in some games to reach 3 mana... I also used to play Hymn to Tourach but switched to single mana discard (mainly because of Misdirection) and found that to be really helpful in reducing the mana curve.

I notice some builds don't run Vindicate. I can understand not running a playset but having a catch all is too hard for me to pass up.

I currently do not run Vindicates as well. I clearly see your point, but I made the experience, that threats, which need to be dealt with immediatly and solely can be dealt with by Vindicate, are either very rare or they hit the field several times. Vindicating is too much like reacting to a threat then building up pressure. Cause, let´s be honest, no match-up will be won through only destroying their pieces. It will surely slower them. But the question is, if it would put them into more trouble if they had to face a threat themselves instead of facing the minor nuissance of finding that piece again.

I furthermore dont´play gatekeepers anymore. 3 Lilianas, 4 StoPs, a bunch of flying jittecarriers and protection through mother are enough to stand against aggro-oriented decks. two edicts and three perishs in sb seal it off.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Deadguy is so dense with good cards that counterspells are not a problem. I'm not weighing the strength of a card based on whether or not it will be countered. Bitterblossom would affect the board the same turn as Souls. And it's so good as stopping RUG's early beats since it makes fliers. If you can block their Delver each turn, it's like they never flipped him. It also stops Mongoose from attacking until they have Thresh. Against Miracles, it's awesome against Swords and survives to make more tokens after Terminus. And for the record, I'm not saying play BB instead of Souls. I play both because I only play eight creatures.

As for creatures, I don't see any making the cut besides Confidant and SFM. Why play Mom? There is such a low creature count here. And you really don't need to protect your guys. That slot should fill an aggressive role.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Deadguy is so dense with good cards that counterspells are not a problem. I'm not weighing the strength of a card based on whether or not it will be countered. Bitterblossom would affect the board the same turn as Souls. And it's so good at stopping RUG's early beats since it makes fliers. If you can block their Delver each turn, it's like they never flipped him. It also stops Mongoose from attacking until they have Thresh. Against Miracles, it's awesome against Swords and survives to make more tokens after Terminus. And for the record, I'm not saying play BB instead of Souls. I play both because I only play eight creatures.

As for creatures, I don't see any making the cut besides Confidant and SFM. Why play Mom? There is such a low creature count here. And you really don't need to protect your guys. That slot should fill an aggressive role.

[Valech]

Deadguy is so dense with good cards that counterspells are not a problem. I'm not weighing the strength of a card based on whether or not it will be countered. Bitterblossom would affect the board the same turn as Souls. And it's so good at stopping RUG's early beats since it makes fliers. If you can block their Delver each turn, it's like they never flipped him. It also stops Mongoose from attacking until they have Thresh. Against Miracles, it's awesome against Swords and survives to make more tokens after Terminus. And for the record, I'm not saying play BB instead of Souls. I play both because I only play eight creatures.

As for creatures, I don't see any making the cut besides Confidant and SFM. Why play Mom? There is such a low creature count here. And you really don't need to protect your guys. That slot should fill an aggressive role.

Don´t know in what kind of meta you play, but my confidants or my mystics, after searching a batterskull, eat removal all the time. A little bit of protection really annoys my opponent. Which I like.
Also, how does BB affect the board the same Turn as LS? BB: T1 Play it, T2 produce Token, T3 attack. LS: T1 Play it + 2 Tokens T2 attack, T3 play it perhaps again. So when you, at its best, attack with two creatures Turn 4 ill attack with four creatures Turn 4. You´ll catch even in Turn 6.
Additionally it´s very nice drop two creatures at once. Jace cant return two creatures in one turn. Liliana cant make me dacridice two in one turn. Scroll cant hit two at once. How often did I witness that my opponent somehow deals with my Faerie-tokens one after another while I had to deal with the lifeloss + a jitte, that waswaiting unused on my side of the board.

Again, I do not consider BB a weak card. I do like it more than LS in terms of Playstyle. It just fits me more. But currently it would be the card i board out in most situations.

[TPurcell]

Don´t know in what kind of meta you play, but my confidants or my mystics, after searching a batterskull, eat removal all the time. A little bit of protection really annoys my opponent. Which I like.
Also, how does BB affect the board the same Turn as LS? BB: T1 Play it, T2 produce Token, T3 attack. LS: T1 Play it + 2 Tokens T2 attack, T3 play it perhaps again. So when you, at its best, attack with two creatures Turn 4 ill attack with four creatures Turn 4. You´ll catch even in Turn 6.
Additionally it´s very nice drop two creatures at once. Jace cant return two creatures in one turn. Liliana cant make me dacridice two in one turn. Scroll cant hit two at once. How often did I witness that my opponent somehow deals with my Faerie-tokens one after another while I had to deal with the lifeloss + a jitte, that waswaiting unused on my side of the board.

Again, I do not consider BB a weak card. I do like it more than LS in terms of Playstyle. It just fits me more. But currently it would be the card i board out in most situations.

Exactly how are you playing LS on turn one? I don't know what kind of build your running but to cast a 3cc spell on turn 1 with deadguy is pretty impressive. If you have to drop 2 chrome moxes on turn one to play a lingering souls, you may want to rethink your play style hahaha

[igri_is_a_bk]

Would you play Aether Vial in this deck? No. That's the same reason you don't play Mother of Runes. The fact you have a creature to protect does not justify Mom. Nearly all Legacy decks have creatures they'd like to protect. But when your creature (and threat) count is low, you can't, nor want, to waste space on Mom. The way you annoy your opponent is discard, board destruction, and superior card advantage to bury them once they get behind. It isn't giving your Confidant pro-white. That is what Maverick does because they don't play black. Use your first turn to take their removal out of hand, and play out your creature turn two.

As for BB, you can play it or not. Obviously it's your choice. It's a boss against the two biggest decks, and will definitely be in my 60. I'm not sure how this confused you, but what I meant is Lingering Souls makes tokens on turn three, and BB starts to make tokens on turn three. Additionally, I'm not sure how this is relevant to discuss because I'm not trying to replace one with the other.

Why do you say you'd board out BB most of the time? You need to give some reasons to back up a claim like that.

[Valech]

Exactly how are you playing LS on turn one? I don't know what kind of build your running but to cast a 3cc spell on turn 1 with deadguy is pretty impressive. If you have to drop 2 chrome moxes on turn one to play a lingering souls, you may want to rethink your play style hahaha

Durr. It´s from the point of view when it hits the battlefield. If they hit the field simultanously LS is stronger. If you argue, that BB can hit the field one Turn earlier I´d answer, that I like a T2 Confidant or mystic more.
Oh, and even IF you play Bitterblossom one Turn earlier you still will need to wait to Turn 5 to draw even in terms of Tokens.

@ Igri:
Especially ina deck with low creature count you try to protect your creatures. they usually serve a purpose aside from beating an opponent senseless. Sure, the generic Aggro player will want to protect his Goyf, too, but if we destroy it it isn´t like there ain´t other threats in his hand. How do you plan to bury your opponent through superior card advantage when your confidant ate a StoP?
My point is, that you need mother to enhance the things in your deck you need to annoy your opponent.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Durr. It´s from the point of view when it hits the battlefield. If they hit the field simultanously LS is stronger. If you argue, that BB can hit the field one Turn earlier I´d answer, that I like a T2 Confidant or mystic more.
Oh, and even IF you play Bitterblossom one Turn earlier you still will need to wait to Turn 5 to draw even in terms of Tokens.

@ Igri:
Especially ina deck with low creature count you try to protect your creatures. they usually serve a purpose aside from beating an opponent senseless. Sure, the generic Aggro player will want to protect his Goyf, too, but if we destroy it it isn´t like there ain´t other threats in his hand. How do you plan to bury your opponent through superior card advantage when your confidant ate a StoP?
My point is, that you need mother to enhance the things in your deck you need to annoy your opponent.

The value you place on Mother of Runes is completely wrong. It's because you play even fewer threats than I do if you don't use BB. Between BB, Souls and Sorin, I don't care as much about spot removal. If it hits my SFM or Confidant, then fine. Such is legacy. I'm not wasting slots to potentially protect eight cards. This is still assuming you didn't strip the removal from their hand turn one. Besides, I get Jitte more often than Batterskull because my deck is heavily token oriented so the damage is already done with SFM.

I bury my opponent with cards like SFM, Confidant, Souls, Therapy, BB, Jitte, Liliana, and Sorin. Then the same efficient one for ones everybody plays.

You never answered my question about BB, either.

[TPurcell]

Durr. It´s from the point of view when it hits the battlefield. If they hit the field simultanously LS is stronger. If you argue, that BB can hit the field one Turn earlier I´d answer, that I like a T2 Confidant or mystic more.
Oh, and even IF you play Bitterblossom one Turn earlier you still will need to wait to Turn 5 to draw even in terms of Tokens.

@ Igri:
Especially ina deck with low creature count you try to protect your creatures. they usually serve a purpose aside from beating an opponent senseless. Sure, the generic Aggro player will want to protect his Goyf, too, but if we destroy it it isn´t like there ain´t other threats in his hand. How do you plan to bury your opponent through superior card advantage when your confidant ate a StoP?
My point is, that you need mother to enhance the things in your deck you need to annoy your opponent.

I actually like LS a lot more than BB at this point and agree that it is more useful in almost every situation at the moment. On turn 2 (or turn 1 if your using a Chrome Mox) I want to be casting SFM or BOB with a hopefull SFM activation turn 3. BB is most dominant against a more control oriented deck but LS is useful in any matchup.

[Valech]

The value you place on Mother of Runes is completely wrong. It's because you play even fewer threats than I do if you don't use BB. Between BB, Souls and Sorin, I don't care as much about spot removal. If it hits my SFM or Confidant, then fine. Such is legacy. I'm not wasting slots to potentially protect eight cards. This is still assuming you didn't strip the removal from their hand turn one. Besides, I get Jitte more often than Batterskull because my deck is heavily token oriented so the damage is already done with SFM.

I bury my opponent with cards like SFM, Confidant, Souls, Therapy, BB, Jitte, Liliana, and Sorin. Then the same efficient one for ones everybody plays.

You never answered my question about BB, either.


First of all, "Such is Legacy" is neither a good reason nor an excuse for losing keycards to spotremoval. Second, "strip the removal" sounds like a) they only run few removals, at least less than I run removal and b) that the scariest thing in their hand is the removal. third, I don´t care about my Spirits/Vampires/Faeries being removed, I care about important cards being removed. I don´t see why one wouldn´t want to protect them. Did I mention, that Mother at its worst still means to be able to block goyfs, knights and co. without loss of your blocker?

To answer your question, which I have sadfully overread, if I ask myself what I need against certain deck I of course also ask myself what I need to board out. When it came to BB the answer often was "too slow", "no additional lifeloss", "won´t have much impact against combo", s"creams for spellpierce" or simply added up "won´t help as much as other cards".

[igri_is_a_bk]

First of all, "Such is Legacy" is neither a good reason nor an excuse for losing keycards to spotremoval. Second, "strip the removal" sounds like a) they only run few removals, at least less than I run removal and b) that the scariest thing in their hand is the removal. third, I don´t care about my Spirits/Vampires/Faeries being removed, I care about important cards being removed. I don´t see why one wouldn´t want to protect them. Did I mention, that Mother at its worst still means to be able to block goyfs, knights and co. without loss of your blocker?

To answer your question, which I have sadfully overread, if I ask myself what I need against certain deck I of course also ask myself what I need to board out. When it came to BB the answer often was "too slow", "no additional lifeloss", "won´t have much impact against combo", s"creams for spellpierce" or simply added up "won´t help as much as other cards".

I know it looks appealing to protect SFM and Confidant, but you really don't need it. Your discard should do her job already, while being good against combo. I don't want StP and Mom in my Deadguy deck. That's too many potentially dead cards for game one. Your creatures need to be high impact when you play so few, and Mom is not individually good. Mom is only good turn one, followed up by SFM or Confidant turn two. The odds for that happening are approximately 26%. You can double check that to make sure I did it right. [(1-0.3464)*(1-0.6005) = 0.2611]. You can obviously top deck the SFM or Confidant later, but if that Mom had been BB in those vacant turns then your board position would be a lot stronger.

I think the slots you're putting Mom is the same slots I'm putting BB. I just don't see how you can possibly cut threats.

[Valech]

I know it looks appealing to protect SFM and Confidant, but you really don't need it. Your discard should do her job already, while being good against combo. I don't want StP and Mom in my Deadguy deck. That's too many potentially dead cards for game one. Your creatures need to be high impact when you play so few, and Mom is not individually good. Mom is only good turn one, followed up by SFM or Confidant turn two. The odds for that happening are approximately 26%. You can double check that to make sure I did it right. [(1-0.3464)*(1-0.6005) = 0.2611]. You can obviously top deck the SFM or Confidant later, but if that Mom had been BB in those vacant turns then your board position would be a lot stronger.

I think the slots you're putting Mom is the same slots I'm putting BB. I just don't see how you can possibly cut threats.


I will try BB instead of Moms. I will try to be as unbiassed as possible. i´ll return with results.

[attemanden]

Hey Guys, this is my version of deadguy. i like the creaturebase pretty much, since you put a bigger presure on the opponent. mixed with discard this give you pretty good control over the game. anyone have any oppinions they like to share? :)... feel free to comment on both main and SB please.

one thing i am questioning is tidehollow sculler, for me it doesnt seem so strong?... easy to kill with both spells and creatures. it seems like you play it, steal a card and nothing more, since you cant attack without have it getting killed. and you cant block for the same reason. whats the thing with this card?...
second. why is mirran crusader such a big deal? i mean 3 cc is pretty heavy in my oppinion. what makes it so good that it fits into legacy? :)
NB. im bringen one more thoughtseize into the deck, dunno yet instead of what. hymn probably going out.
bring your comments :)

Creatures: 18
4x dark confidant
3x mother of runes
3x stoneforge mystic
3x thalia, guardian of thraben
2x hidehollow sculler
3x Serra Avenger

artifacts 8
2x sensei top
1x batterskull
1x jitte
4x Æthervial

Instans: 4
4x plowshares

Sorceries: 8
1x Thoughtseize
3x Inquisition of kozilek
2x hymn to tourach
2x vindicate


Planeswalkers 2
2x Liliana of the veil


lands 20
4x wasteland
4x scrubland
4x flat marsh
3x bloodstained mire
2x plain
3x swamps


sideboard: 15
2x Tormods crypt/relic of progenitus/rest in peace
2x Extirpate
2x Duress
1x Sword of feast and famine
1x sword of fire and ice
2x Engineered plague
2x Oblivion ring
1x perish/ghastly demice/path to exile
1x hymn to tourach
1x pithing needle

[JanoschEausH]

Hey Guys, this is my version of deadguy. i like the creaturebase pretty much, since you put a bigger presure on the opponent. mixed with discard this give you pretty good control over the game. anyone have any oppinions they like to share? :)... feel free to comment on both main and SB please.

one thing i am questioning is tidehollow sculler, for me it doesnt seem so strong?... easy to kill with both spells and creatures. it seems like you play it, steal a card and nothing more, since you cant attack without have it getting killed. and you cant block for the same reason. whats the thing with this card?...
second. why is mirran crusader such a big deal? i mean 3 cc is pretty heavy in my oppinion. what makes it so good that it fits into legacy? :)
NB. im bringen one more thoughtseize into the deck, dunno yet instead of what. hymn probably going out.
bring your comments :)


I really like your list! It looks like Death 'n Taxes with black. I will test it for sure!
I would actually drop the hymns. Even if you play 4 Scrubland and 7 Fetches, it can be hard to have BB turn 2. I would exchange the Hymns with more CMC1 discard.
Concerning your question regarding Mirran Crusader: This guy is a really big clock, which is, what this deck is missing at the moment. He dies to STP and red removal, which is the reason why i play Moms to protect him. Did you ever attack with Mirran Crusader carrying a Jitte or Sword? Its basically GG when he connects.

I know, most people in this thread favour token-based strategies and i acknowledge that there is no space for a 3drop Mirran Crusader in their lists, but speaking for myself, i did very well with him in countless testgames and a few tournaments.

I guess Serra Avenger takes Mirran Crusaders space in your list in terms of function.

[Rizso]

Call me a bit crazy but a couple of sideboard cards im thinking of playing is Memoricide / Cranial Extraction Nevermore cost they are strong against against Miracles / show and tell. Against miracles hit either jace / miracle will greatly remove the chances of them able to comeback in a game. Pinpoint Discard into nevermore is pretty sweet, kinda like the old Finkula deck from 2001/2 where you went duress into meddlingmage.

Totally worth trying it out.

[Wilkin]

Call me a bit crazy but a couple of sideboard cards im thinking of playing is Memoricide / Cranial Extraction Nevermore cost they are strong against against Miracles / show and tell. Against miracles hit either jace / miracle will greatly remove the chances of them able to comeback in a game. Pinpoint Discard into nevermore is pretty sweet, kinda like the old Finkula deck from 2001/2 where you went duress into meddlingmage.

Totally worth trying it out.

Cranial Extraction is four mana right? That's a little too high to stop a combo deck IMO. Nevermore...maybe especially if you play accelerates like Shaman or Chrome Mox.

Against Miracles I haven't had a problem yet. I play Revoker and Engineered Explosives to deal with Top and tokens. Bitterblossom is awesome against a Terminus since i will regain my army slowly.

Show and tell i have more problems....if only Gatekeeper were able to work off a show and tell, like Fleshbag Marauder or Shriekmaw. Too bad Shriekmaw is non black and non artifact. I've hit Emrakul with Shriekmaw on a few occasions off a show and tell....lol, the looks on their faces is priceless.

[igri_is_a_bk]

I'm not very fond of your strategy for Miracles. Revoker shutting down Top is really nice, and probably the best way to slow them down. The problem is that he's a creature, and Miracles is packed full of ways to deal with creatures. Have you tried Pithing Needle, as a comparison? It might be a more reliable card in the match up.

As for SnT decks, play Oblivion Ring. It is a (mostly) functional replacement for Vindicate, and just happens to work against a top combo deck right now. You can also play Seal of Cleansing in the sideboard, instead of Disenchant. I'm not sure if it's worth dropping the instant-speed yet. I'm still trying it out.

Has anybody tried Shaman here? I know we don't have green, but that's not the end of the world. He provides more reach, which is something we are lacking, and accelerates without being terrible in the late game, like Chrome Mox. I know he doesn't play so nicely with Therapy or Souls, but since your opponent's graveyard is also fair game, I think he could work.

[evilGod]

In the limited testing I've done, without green DRS isn't quite worth it. Being a black manadork that blocks Lackey and pings for 2 is good, but being inconsistent at the mana ramp isn't quite worth a slot. When you can activate the ability to eat creatures you can fight Dredge/Reanimator G1, and gain some critical life against fast Aggro, he really starts to shine. It's like playing a creature Liliana, he's almost always gonna be good for something.

[Rizso]

If storm combo is gonna go off turn 1 or 2 through discard there isnt anything you can do anyway. If you however able to stall them from going of by a couple of turns its very much possible to extract enought cards out with surgicals / Cranials / Nevermores. By Removing the enablers its very much possible to make them unable to win.

Extracting a miracles jaces and banning the entreats they will have very little to no killing condictions left.

Against show and tell kind want to hit either show and tell or burning wish. hiting the wish means they cant go inf with omni into storm you out.

Accels like mox and deathrite makes it much easier to hit the correct number of mana.

[paladin3056]

In the limited testing I've done, without green DRS isn't quite worth it. Being a black manadork that blocks Lackey and pings for 2 is good, but being inconsistent at the mana ramp isn't quite worth a slot. When you can activate the ability to eat creatures you can fight Dredge/Reanimator G1, and gain some critical life against fast Aggro, he really starts to shine. It's like playing a creature Liliana, he's almost always gonna be good for something.

Then why not spash green, adding a couple of Bayou's or maybe a single forest just for Shaman and a couple of Abrupts is well worth it. As for the abilities, I definitely agree that DRS is an all around card, almost like a Swiss army knife which can wreck several decks at the same time is bad to a few like SnT (Show and Tell DRS is the worst possible combination).

I'm just waiting for Gatecrash just to see what goodies Orzhov will get, and hopefully the Charm will be doing something good as well like discard / exile creature / etc (I can dream :tongue:)

As for the SB options, Nevermore is quite interesting, and maybe worth testing, the good side about it is that if you are running a Mox build then its quite easy to imprint Nevermore to it if you don't need it.

[abetman]

I haven't tried this list yet but am thinking of running:

Lands(20)
3 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
3 Scrubland
3 Swamp
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Murmuring Bosk

Creatures(17)
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Aven Mindcensor

Artfiacts/Enchantments/Planeswalkers(6)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
2 Bitterblossom
1 Liliana of the Veil

Spells(17)
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Lingering Souls

SIDEBOARD(15)
2 Extirpate
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Choke
2 Perish
2 Engineered Plague
2 Vindicate
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Thoughts? :)

[Wilkin]

I'm not a huge fan of Aven Mindcensor. It's a decent card but since you are splashing green.....can't you play Tarmogoyf? I would also try and increase Liliana to 3 if you can. She's that good, I've won many a game with her on the board.

I might also cut the Bosk for a dual land. I know why you are playing it but you already have Bojuka Bog, having 2 come into play tapped lands isn't that good imo. 20 lands and 2 shaman is a bit low mana wise I think. Right now I'm running 20 lands, 2 Chrome Mox and a Shaman (lol, I know who the heck plays just one shaman?) and I find sometimes I can have mana problems.





As for someone commenting on Revoker. Yeah I know Miracles can kill it easily but I still prefer Revoker over Needle because he's a dude. My deck doesn't run as many creatures as other builds so if my hate cards can do some damage, even better. Miracles so far for me isn't that bad of a matchup. I run Bitterblossom which is a house against them. The only tier 1 deck I have trouble against is Show and tell. I even considered making Team Italia, in order to be able to use REB's and Pyroblast.

[abetman]

I'm not a huge fan of Aven Mindcensor. It's a decent card but since you are splashing green.....can't you play Tarmogoyf? I would also try and increase Liliana to 3 if you can. She's that good, I've won many a game with her on the board.

I might also cut the Bosk for a dual land. I know why you are playing it but you already have Bojuka Bog, having 2 come into play tapped lands isn't that good imo. 20 lands and 2 shaman is a bit low mana wise I think. Right now I'm running 20 lands, 2 Chrome Mox and a Shaman (lol, I know who the heck plays just one shaman?) and I find sometimes I can have mana problems.





As for someone commenting on Revoker. Yeah I know Miracles can kill it easily but I still prefer Revoker over Needle because he's a dude. My deck doesn't run as many creatures as other builds so if my hate cards can do some damage, even better. Miracles so far for me isn't that bad of a matchup. I run Bitterblossom which is a house against them. The only tier 1 deck I have trouble against is Show and tell. I even considered making Team Italia, in order to be able to use REB's and Pyroblast.

I don't have goyfs and am running bosk coz I don't have a third bayou. :) I was supposed to run mirran crusader for the censor's slot, but decided to run censor for a change.

[Leto]

Hi guys, after a long time i decided to play DGA again, heading into the GP Bochum Legacy-Championship. Below u see my List, but nothing to exciting or innovative here:

Manabase (22 Karten)
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Karakas
Creatures (8 Karten)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
Discard (9 Karten)
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach
Removal (7 Karten)
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Ghastly Demise
Token (7 Karten)
4 Lingering Souls
3 Bitterblossom
Planeswalker (5 Karten)
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
Equipments (3 Karten)
1 Umezawas Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
Sideboard (15 Karten)
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Engineered Plague
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Silence
3 Cursed Totem

MUs were
vs. ANT 2:1
vs. UW-Control 1:1
vs. BUG Tempo 0:2
vs. Maverick 2:0
vs. Aluren 2:1
vs. Canadian 0:2
vs. Goblins 2:0
vs. Dredge 0:2
finally 4:3:1 and Place 32/132. Not the World, but I was quite surprised how well the List felt. Changes will be cutting Hymns (maybe +2 Zealous +2 TS), changing up Graveyardhate in the Board and looking for an replacement for Ghastly Demise, i had several Situations where i could not shot down a Deathrite Shaman or other black creature and lost because of this.

[ForlornEgoist]

Originally I had intended to post this in Sui-Black but as said deck tends to be heavier on the aggro side, I figured Deadguy was a better place.

Does anyone still consider the old Bitterblossom + Contamination a viable lock anymore?

Based on the present meta my immediate assumption is "no." Not only is the lock hard to set-up (not only in drawing into it but as well as resolving it) but the lock can be quite difficult to sustain against the heavy aggro meta. Still, back during the days of CounterTop I recall this being a prevalent lock MBA used. It was one of my favorite locks to run at the time and I was curious to see if any players here presently use it or if they consider it still a viable option.

Forlorn Egoist

[Wilkin]

Originally I had intended to post this in Sui-Black but as said deck tends to be heavier on the aggro side, I figured Deadguy was a better place.

Does anyone still consider the old Bitterblossom + Contamination a viable lock anymore?

Based on the present meta my immediate assumption is "no." Not only is the lock hard to set-up (not only in drawing into it but as well as resolving it) but the lock can be quite difficult to sustain against the heavy aggro meta. Still, back during the days of CounterTop I recall this being a prevalent lock MBA used. It was one of my favorite locks to run at the time and I was curious to see if any players here presently use it or if they consider it still a viable option.

Forlorn Egoist

Never tried that combo before but I'm going to say probably not. Combo decks like say Belcher, Sneak/show, ANT should combo off before you play the combo. Other decks like say Canadian Threshold should be able to counter one of the cards of the combo.
But who knows? I would say that it isn't expected so if someone isn't prepared for it, you may catch some people with their pants down.

[Tokugawa]

Originally I had intended to post this in Sui-Black but as said deck tends to be heavier on the aggro side, I figured Deadguy was a better place.

Does anyone still consider the old Bitterblossom + Contamination a viable lock anymore?

Based on the present meta my immediate assumption is "no." Not only is the lock hard to set-up (not only in drawing into it but as well as resolving it) but the lock can be quite difficult to sustain against the heavy aggro meta. Still, back during the days of CounterTop I recall this being a prevalent lock MBA used. It was one of my favorite locks to run at the time and I was curious to see if any players here presently use it or if they consider it still a viable option.

Forlorn Egoist

I would say "No".

Most combos are faster than this. And mana fixer, like Noble Hierarch and Deathrite Shaman, is popular currently.

[Rizso]

Have left the moxes behind no longer playing with chrome moxes.

20 lands where 7 of them are fetchs and 4 wastelands and with 4 deathrite shamans and 5 duals 4 scrub / bayou.

Sideboard got changed a bit as well:
2 Perish
4 surgical extraction
1 Inquisition of kozilek
1 Memoricide
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Nevermore
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Seal of cleansing
1 Humility
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Nevermore / cranial and memoricide are for miracle matchups.

[Wilkin]

Have left the moxes behind no longer playing with chrome moxes.

20 lands where 7 of them are fetchs and 4 wastelands and with 4 deathrite shamans and 5 duals 4 scrub / bayou.

Sideboard got changed a bit as well:
2 Perish
4 surgical extraction
1 Inquisition of kozilek
1 Memoricide
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Nevermore
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Seal of cleansing
1 Humility
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Nevermore / cranial and memoricide are for miracle matchups.

I would try and fit in more lands imo. You do have 4 Deathrites and that's good but you still need a colored mana to cast them and then hope it doesn't get bolted.

I'm running 20 lands, 2 chrome mox and (lol) one shaman. I may try more shamans but IMO i would also have to increase land count and the deck is better being Junk.....if you are going with some green sources might as well go with stuff like Decay and Knight of the Reliquary. The mana is a bit tight the way it is now. I am liking going with only 2 Chrome Mox as I'm less likely to draw it late game it seems. I do like the Shaman when I do see and use him.

Hard for me to let go of using Chrome Mox. In a tournament on Saturday I did a Thoughtseize and an Inquisition first turn VS. RUG. I took away a Mongoose and a daze. Liliana and Bitterblossom soon followed. Also against Omniscience combo I had a first turn Thalia. Turn 2 I wasted his one land and then played Dark Confidant. GG.

Too bad there isn't a Thragtusk like creature available in black/white....Terminus is really annoying. My best answer for that right now is Bitterblossom. My other suggestion for Miracles is Pithing Needle on Sensei's Diving Top. They can still brainstorm and Jace but they have to work a lot more to Miracle.

[igri_is_a_bk]

I've been using Bitterblossom, and I also use a Lumincarch Ascension in my sideboard for Miracles. That, plus Pithing Needle and EE make the matchup much less terrible.

[Wilkin]

I've been using Bitterblossom, and I also use a Lumincarch Ascension in my sideboard for Miracles. That, plus Pithing Needle and EE make the matchup much less terrible.

Luminarch....Interesting. How does that work out vs Miracles? And do you use it against anyone else?

I run a couple of EE myself. It's great not only for the Angel tokens but you can use to it to try and kill Counterbalance.

[igri_is_a_bk]

It's incredible against Miracles. They can't Terminus or Swords it away, and it forces them to find an EtA quickly, which means fewer angels. Or they don't find it, and lose to one card.

I haven't used it against anybody else yet. It's obviously good against any deck that doesn't chip away at your life. It could be good against a slow BUG deck, and it would definitely rock against Lands. I would bring it in against combo too, other than Dredge. You can disrupt them, play Luminarch, and hope they can't rebuild in four turns. Not ideal, but it's better than keeping StP or BB in.

[fogxanic]

Any1 tested Judge's Familiar in this deck? Results?

[FortyThree]

Hi everyone,

I've been following this thread for a long time now and it's helped me a lot. I'd like to thank Riszo and Valech and all the rest for all your thoughtful discussions.

For the last few weeks, I've been running a version of this deck close to Riszo's pre-Deathrite Shaman version, and I've been having a blast. The deck is quite versatile and a lot of fun.

Now, a quick digression about myself: I've been playing Legacy (and magic, for that matter) for about 6 months now. I started in June with pretty much no cards, and built The Gate to begin with, since I wasn't quite up to spending so much in one chunk. From that, I moved on to DeadGuy Ale, which I've been playing for about 6 weeks now. Now, since I started playing DGA, I've found I really enjoy stepping into the control role. With that in mind, and since I always want to have a plan for what to acquire next, my next longish term goal is to build Esper Stoneblade.

However, the manabase for Esper Stoneblade is quite an investment (4 Tundra, 3 U Sea and Karakas =/), so I have been looking at options for a stepping stone between DGA and Esper Stoneblade that will let me play some blue while I acquire all the stuff for Esper Stoneblade. From the Blade Control thread in DTB, I found a link to the following deck: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=998894

Now, there are a few things I don't like too much about this list, and I'd like to hear your opinions about it.

1. I think 4 Bitterblossoms is too much. I run 3 in my current DGA build, and seeing 2 is almost never a good thing, and seeing three is downright bad.
2. I don't want less than 3 stoneforge mystics. These are just so good, especially when I can have some countermagic to protect him
3. No Batterskull makes me a sad panda. I want Batterskull in.
4. I _really_ like Sensei's divining top. Top + Bob is just amazing.
5. I have a hard time justifying Gitaxian Probe. Yes, it cantrips and gives you information, but I'd rather run other stuff.

With that in mind, here's my attempt at a DGA list with a blue splash. My intention is to make a deck that moves a bit more towards the control side of things, and has a bit more resilience than classic DGA against combo (which can be problematic due to lack of permission):

Planeswalkers:
2x Liliana of the Veil
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Creatures:
4x Dark Confidant
3x Stoneforge Mystic

Spells:
4x Brainstorm
4x Lingering Souls
3x Bitterblossom
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Cabal Therapy
2x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Spell Pierce
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Batterskull
1x Zealous Persecution

Manabase:

2x Chrome Mox
3x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
4x Marsh Flats
2x Island
2x Swamp
1x Plains
2x Scrubland
1x Underground Sea
1x Tundra

Sideboard:
2x Perish (RUG Delver, Maverick, BUG Tempo)
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Ethersworn Canonist (Storm, Elves, Belcher)
1x Engineered Plague (Goblins, Maverick, Elves)
1x Humility (Show and Tell, Maverick)
2x Oblivion Ring (Show and Tell, others)
1x Rest in Peace (RUG Delver, Dredge, Reanimator, BG Pox)
2x Flusterstorm (Combo, Burn?)
2x Supreme Verdict (Goblins, Maverick, Merfolk, Elves, Affinity)
1x Umezawa's Jitte (Maverick, other matchups with their own Jitte)


What are your thoughts?

Thanks in advance,

FortyThree

[Valech]

Hi everyone,

I've been following this thread for a long time now and it's helped me a lot. I'd like to thank Riszo and Valech and all the rest for all your thoughtful discussions.

For the last few weeks, I've been running a version of this deck close to Riszo's pre-Deathrite Shaman version, and I've been having a blast. The deck is quite versatile and a lot of fun.

Now, a quick digression about myself: I've been playing Legacy (and magic, for that matter) for about 6 months now. I started in June with pretty much no cards, and built The Gate to begin with, since I wasn't quite up to spending so much in one chunk. From that, I moved on to DeadGuy Ale, which I've been playing for about 6 weeks now. Now, since I started playing DGA, I've found I really enjoy stepping into the control role. With that in mind, and since I always want to have a plan for what to acquire next, my next longish term goal is to build Esper Stoneblade.

However, the manabase for Esper Stoneblade is quite an investment (4 Tundra, 3 U Sea and Karakas =/), so I have been looking at options for a stepping stone between DGA and Esper Stoneblade that will let me play some blue while I acquire all the stuff for Esper Stoneblade. From the Blade Control thread in DTB, I found a link to the following deck: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=998894

Now, there are a few things I don't like too much about this list, and I'd like to hear your opinions about it.

1. I think 4 Bitterblossoms is too much. I run 3 in my current DGA build, and seeing 2 is almost never a good thing, and seeing three is downright bad.
2. I don't want less than 3 stoneforge mystics. These are just so good, especially when I can have some countermagic to protect him
3. No Batterskull makes me a sad panda. I want Batterskull in.
4. I _really_ like Sensei's divining top. Top + Bob is just amazing.
5. I have a hard time justifying Gitaxian Probe. Yes, it cantrips and gives you information, but I'd rather run other stuff.

With that in mind, here's my attempt at a DGA list with a blue splash. My intention is to make a deck that moves a bit more towards the control side of things, and has a bit more resilience than classic DGA against combo (which can be problematic due to lack of permission):

Planeswalkers:
2x Liliana of the Veil
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Creatures:
4x Dark Confidant
3x Stoneforge Mystic

Spells:
4x Brainstorm
4x Lingering Souls
3x Bitterblossom
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Cabal Therapy
2x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Spell Pierce
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Batterskull
1x Zealous Persecution

Manabase:

2x Chrome Mox
3x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
4x Marsh Flats
2x Island
2x Swamp
1x Plains
2x Scrubland
1x Underground Sea
1x Tundra

Sideboard:
2x Perish (RUG Delver, Maverick, BUG Tempo)
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Ethersworn Canonist (Storm, Elves, Belcher)
1x Engineered Plague (Goblins, Maverick, Elves)
1x Humility (Show and Tell, Maverick)
2x Oblivion Ring (Show and Tell, others)
1x Rest in Peace (RUG Delver, Dredge, Reanimator, BG Pox)
2x Flusterstorm (Combo, Burn?)
2x Supreme Verdict (Goblins, Maverick, Merfolk, Elves, Affinity)
1x Umezawa's Jitte (Maverick, other matchups with their own Jitte)


What are your thoughts?

Thanks in advance,

FortyThree



Well, the only thing I don´t like about your list is that I like your list >< It seems indeed like it is more controlly that way, whichfore I surely will playtest it, but it simply has lost its light-darkness-good-evil-style -.- What originally was the reason for me to give this deck a try.
Well, that being said, I would have some minor suggestions depending the list. I would want a third Liliana and a third Inquisition. I would drop both Tops for that, although you said you like them. The reason for that is, that we gain other means of exploiting Confidant (read: brainstorm) and that we don´t want to be outtapped in the crucial phase of the duel, which would be the beginning.
Regarding you manabase I won´t discuss Moxen. Just too preferential. What I would do is to drop an Island and add an Underground Sea (I know, costy :/).
And last but not least, exchance O-Ring with Detention Sphere. It has awesome.

[FortyThree]

Well, the only thing I don´t like about your list is that I like your list >< It seems indeed like it is more controlly that way, whichfore I surely will playtest it, but it simply has lost its light-darkness-good-evil-style -.- What originally was the reason for me to give this deck a try.
Well, that being said, I would have some minor suggestions depending the list. I would want a third Liliana and a third Inquisition. I would drop both Tops for that, although you said you like them. The reason for that is, that we gain other means of exploiting Confidant (read: brainstorm) and that we don´t want to be outtapped in the crucial phase of the duel, which would be the beginning.
Regarding you manabase I won´t discuss Moxen. Just too preferential. What I would do is to drop an Island and add an Underground Sea (I know, costy :/).
And last but not least, exchance O-Ring with Detention Sphere. It has awesome.

Thanks for your reply. I'm glad that I at least was not so off the mark with my attempted changes =)
I'll address your points one by one:

Regarding Liliana, Inquisition and top:
I agree. I'd like to have both of these. Whilst I don't feel there is a need for 9-10 pieces of discard like in a normal DGA build, I feel 4 is slightly on the lower end. Liliana is simply a beast when in a control position, so no arguments there. However, I'm really apprehensive towards getting rid of the tops. I think you're right that you don't want to be tapped out in the early parts of the game, but in my experience I have no problems with waiting until the mid game to begin using the top. At that point, Bob can be used pretty much indefinitely, and it helps a lot when needing to dig for particular answers. I think what I might do is remove the zealous persecution and put a third inquisition or third liliana in. Whilst zealous persecution works really nicely for me in DGA, its purpose is mostly as a sweeper against tons of X/1 creatures, and I feel like this list has good answers to that sort of threat already.

Regarding Chrome Mox:
I actually have found myself not quite liking Chrome Mox so much in DGA, and have been thinking about switching them out for lands. It seems like in the early game it's never an easy decision to lose a card, and in the mid/late game it becomes quite worse than drawing a land. I think I might switch them out anyway. As for switching an Island for an U Sea, I agree 100%, but I will not be doing that until later on.

Regarding O-ring/detention sphere:
Agreed. Totally forgot about Sphere =P


Regards,

FortyThree

[Valech]

Thanks for your reply. I'm glad that I at least was not so off the mark with my attempted changes =)
I'll address your points one by one:

Regarding Liliana, Inquisition and top:
I agree. I'd like to have both of these. Whilst I don't feel there is a need for 9-10 pieces of discard like in a normal DGA build, I feel 4 is slightly on the lower end. Liliana is simply a beast when in a control position, so no arguments there. However, I'm really apprehensive towards getting rid of the tops. I think you're right that you don't want to be tapped out in the early parts of the game, but in my experience I have no problems with waiting until the mid game to begin using the top. At that point, Bob can be used pretty much indefinitely, and it helps a lot when needing to dig for particular answers. I think what I might do is remove the zealous persecution and put a third inquisition or third liliana in. Whilst zealous persecution works really nicely for me in DGA, its purpose is mostly as a sweeper against tons of X/1 creatures, and I feel like this list has good answers to that sort of threat already.

Regarding Chrome Mox:
I actually have found myself not quite liking Chrome Mox so much in DGA, and have been thinking about switching them out for lands. It seems like in the early game it's never an easy decision to lose a card, and in the mid/late game it becomes quite worse than drawing a land. I think I might switch them out anyway. As for switching an Island for an U Sea, I agree 100%, but I will not be doing that until later on.

Regarding O-ring/detention sphere:
Agreed. Totally forgot about Sphere =P


Regards,

FortyThree



I used to play a DGA List without Tops at all and never lost a match due to confidant-caused lifeloss. Even with Batterskull and two Sorins. Thats why I never found that the Confidant-Top-Synergy was a big deal. Although of course I have to admit, that negligable damage is still worse than no damage at all. Whichfore I understand your point. Furthermore I think cutting Zealous Persecution is the right way if you insist on keeping Top.

[JadeOberg]

Hi everyone,

I've been following this thread for a long time now and it's helped me a lot. I'd like to thank Riszo and Valech and all the rest for all your thoughtful discussions.

For the last few weeks, I've been running a version of this deck close to Riszo's pre-Deathrite Shaman version, and I've been having a blast. The deck is quite versatile and a lot of fun.

Now, a quick digression about myself: I've been playing Legacy (and magic, for that matter) for about 6 months now. I started in June with pretty much no cards, and built The Gate to begin with, since I wasn't quite up to spending so much in one chunk. From that, I moved on to DeadGuy Ale, which I've been playing for about 6 weeks now. Now, since I started playing DGA, I've found I really enjoy stepping into the control role. With that in mind, and since I always want to have a plan for what to acquire next, my next longish term goal is to build Esper Stoneblade.

However, the manabase for Esper Stoneblade is quite an investment (4 Tundra, 3 U Sea and Karakas =/), so I have been looking at options for a stepping stone between DGA and Esper Stoneblade that will let me play some blue while I acquire all the stuff for Esper Stoneblade. From the Blade Control thread in DTB, I found a link to the following deck: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=998894

Now, there are a few things I don't like too much about this list, and I'd like to hear your opinions about it.

1. I think 4 Bitterblossoms is too much. I run 3 in my current DGA build, and seeing 2 is almost never a good thing, and seeing three is downright bad.
2. I don't want less than 3 stoneforge mystics. These are just so good, especially when I can have some countermagic to protect him
3. No Batterskull makes me a sad panda. I want Batterskull in.
4. I _really_ like Sensei's divining top. Top + Bob is just amazing.
5. I have a hard time justifying Gitaxian Probe. Yes, it cantrips and gives you information, but I'd rather run other stuff.

With that in mind, here's my attempt at a DGA list with a blue splash. My intention is to make a deck that moves a bit more towards the control side of things, and has a bit more resilience than classic DGA against combo (which can be problematic due to lack of permission):

Planeswalkers:
2x Liliana of the Veil
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Creatures:
4x Dark Confidant
3x Stoneforge Mystic

Spells:
4x Brainstorm
4x Lingering Souls
3x Bitterblossom
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Cabal Therapy
2x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Spell Pierce
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Batterskull
1x Zealous Persecution

Manabase:

2x Chrome Mox
3x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
4x Marsh Flats
2x Island
2x Swamp
1x Plains
2x Scrubland
1x Underground Sea
1x Tundra

Sideboard:
2x Perish (RUG Delver, Maverick, BUG Tempo)
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Ethersworn Canonist (Storm, Elves, Belcher)
1x Engineered Plague (Goblins, Maverick, Elves)
1x Humility (Show and Tell, Maverick)
2x Oblivion Ring (Show and Tell, others)
1x Rest in Peace (RUG Delver, Dredge, Reanimator, BG Pox)
2x Flusterstorm (Combo, Burn?)
2x Supreme Verdict (Goblins, Maverick, Merfolk, Elves, Affinity)
1x Umezawa's Jitte (Maverick, other matchups with their own Jitte)


What are your thoughts?

Thanks in advance,

FortyThree

I don't think you need a blue splash to beat combo. We have access to Thalia, discard, and mana disruption. Between those I have never had a problem with Slower combo (show and tell) or Ant/TES. I run 4 Thoughtseize/3 Inquisition, 3 Thalia, 4 Tidehollow. 4 moms protect my dudes. Not only is Tidehollow great against combo, but it is sensational with 1 mana discard to back it up. It is a huge tempo card in the creature matchups as well. Finding a hand with 2 pieces of disruption in the opener will usually get there, unless ofcourse they go off first turn on the play. Even then, you are less than 50% to have the Force of Will anyway.

Also, testing 2 Deathrites main with 1 Bayou and 9 Green Fetches. All for Grips and Chokes in the board. Seriously, Choke is where you wanna be at right now. Have not had any issues getting green when I need it.

Cheers

[fogxanic]

I just made new deck list. I'll report test results later.

Creatures: 15

4x Dark Confidant
2x Deathrite Shaman
1x Serra Avenger
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Tidehollow Sculler Spells: 25

1x Abrupt Decay
1x Batterskull
1x Bitterblossom
2x Cabal Therapy
2x Duress
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Liliana of the Veil
3x Lingering Souls
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Sylvan Library
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Vindicate

Land: 20

1x Bayou
1x Forest
1x Karakas
4x Marsh Flats
1x Plains
1x Savannah
3x Scrubland
2x Swamp
2x Verdant Catacombs
3x Wasteland
1x Windswept Heath

Side: 15

1x Engineered Plague
2x Extirpate
1x Humility
1x Jötun Grunt
3x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Perish
2x Pithing Needle
2x Serenity
1x Timely Reinforcements
1x Zealous Persecution

[igri_is_a_bk]

If everyone is going to add green, you have no reason to keep the Deadguy cards. You might as well play Rock, and get Knight and Tarmogoyf.

[JadeOberg]

If everyone is going to add green, you have no reason to keep the Deadguy cards. You might as well play Rock, and get Knight and Tarmogoyf.


While I admit that Goyf is great and easily splashible, it doesnt provide enough utility to a deadguy deck. Just by playing Deadguy we are already putting ourselves at a disadvantage by playing an inferior deck. To compensate for this I want to play creatures that "do" something besides beating and blocking. Eventually it just gets to the point where there is no room for Goyf. I have a plan to "out card advantage" and out tempo my opponent when playing DGA. Either discard their removal and stick a bob. Protect a bob with mom. Get 2 for 1's with Tidehollow, SFM, BoB. Mana Denial with thalia, vindicate, and waste.

Sure you can do a lot of these things in a Rock deck, play GSZ with utility, but I think the game plan Is a lot more focused with DGA. Sometimes this is good, sometimes it is bad, depending on the deck you are facing.

So splashing green for sideboard hate makes sense because it involves a minimal change in the DGA gameplan while also shoring up bad matches for the deck.

[igri_is_a_bk]

If you're going to add green to the extent that he did (I mean, he has a basic Forest), you should just play Goyf and Knight.

Let me be clear, too. I'm in support of adding one Bayou to play Deathrite. It's nonessential that Deathrite exiles creatures for us though. That's a bonus, and one worth the small splash. I like him because he accelerates, while providing reach. That's where his true strength shows through most of the time.

Deadguy Ale

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [B] Scrubland
1 [B] Bayou
3 [UNH] Swamp
2 [UNH] Plains
1 [LG] Karakas
3 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
3 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
2 [MBS] Hero of Bladehold

// Spells
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
1 [ROE] Inquisition of Kozilek
2 [MOR] Bitterblossom
4 [DKA] Lingering Souls
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
2 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [NPH] Batterskull
4 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [TE] Perish
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [RAV] Darkblast
SB: 2 [ARB] Zealous Persecution
SB: 1 [MBS] Sword of Feast and Famine
SB: 1 [ZEN] Luminarch Ascension
SB: 2 [SOM] Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [ALA] Tidehollow Sculler

Currently trying out CalebD's Hero of Bladehold. It's been really good at applying pressure in the early to mid-game, which has only been done with Batterskull in the past. The discard spells are being tested in different numbers right now, but Cabal Therapy has still been the strongest. CalebD also suggested the removal of Wasteland, but I think he is wrong. The card can just flat out win you the game. And its still a colorless land in a deck with quite a few colorless symbols that also abuses DRS. It's not a card on the chopping block for me.

The sideboard is really good, if I do say so myself. Haha :tongue: Those are all cards I've wanted dearly at one time or another in relevant match ups. Zealous Persecution is my personal favorite, and it has performed as a one-sided WoG as often as Perish.

[Sughayyer]

@JadeOberg

I don't see a deck full of card advantage (souls, blossom, sfm, bob, therapy) as an "inferior" deck. I usually play the rock, but sometimes I switch to dga, and while both decks have different strenghts/weaknesses, many hard MUs for rock are really easy for DGA.
In fact, if I would play in a larger tournament, I'd rather go with DGA.

[JadeOberg]

@JadeOberg

I don't see a deck full of card advantage (souls, blossom, sfm, bob, therapy) as an "inferior" deck. I usually play the rock, but sometimes I switch to dga, and while both decks have different strenghts/weaknesses, many hard MUs for rock are really easy for DGA.
In fact, if I would play in a larger tournament, I'd rather go with DGA.

I was referring to DGA relative to the decks in the DTB section, not specifically compared to the Rock. I agree that DGA definitely has its +/- matchups, but it doesn't have nearly the success that the DTB do. Optimistically I hope that this is because hardly anybody plays DGA, but if you look at the data, you have a better chance of winning a large tournament with blue in your deck.

It would be awesome to see DGA as even 5% of the Meta of a huge tournament to see the results it would put up, instead of just 2 or 3 people jamming it.

[Tokugawa]

If you're going to add green to the extent that he did (I mean, he has a basic Forest), you should just play Goyf and Knight.

Let me be clear, too. I'm in support of adding one Bayou to play Deathrite. It's nonessential that Deathrite exiles creatures for us though. That's a bonus, and one worth the small splash. I like him because he accelerates, while providing reach. That's where his true strength shows through most of the time.

Deadguy Ale

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [B] Scrubland
1 [B] Bayou
3 [UNH] Swamp
2 [UNH] Plains
1 [LG] Karakas
3 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
3 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
2 [MBS] Hero of Bladehold

// Spells
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
1 [ROE] Inquisition of Kozilek
2 [MOR] Bitterblossom
4 [DKA] Lingering Souls
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
2 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [NPH] Batterskull
4 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [TE] Perish
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [RAV] Darkblast
SB: 2 [ARB] Zealous Persecution
SB: 1 [MBS] Sword of Feast and Famine
SB: 1 [ZEN] Luminarch Ascension
SB: 2 [SOM] Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [ALA] Tidehollow Sculler

Currently trying out CalebD's Hero of Bladehold. It's been really good at applying pressure in the early to mid-game, which has only been done with Batterskull in the past. The discard spells are being tested in different numbers right now, but Cabal Therapy has still been the strongest. CalebD also suggested the removal of Wasteland, but I think he is wrong. The card can just flat out win you the game. And its still a colorless land in a deck with quite a few colorless symbols that also abuses DRS. It's not a card on the chopping block for me.

The sideboard is really good, if I do say so myself. Haha :tongue: Those are all cards I've wanted dearly at one time or another in relevant match ups. Zealous Persecution is my personal favorite, and it has performed as a one-sided WoG as often as Perish.

Wasteland is the bread and water of every Deathrite-shaman deck. Of course it cannot be cutted.

If you have 2 jittes MD, you can cut 1 SFM for the full copies of DrS.

[Wilkin]

Yeah, Caleb is a great player and deck builder.....but I still can`t cut wasteland. Being able to disrupt an opponent`s game plan by either mana denial or discard is essential to the strategy. I did try Hero of Bladehold though and I love it. She has ended many games in one or 2 hits.

To an earlier poster, never tried Judge`s Familiar. It`s too low impact imo. I would much rather play Thalia, and I do in the sideboard.

Putting one Pithing Needle in board and taking out a Canonist. Needle mostly for the Miracle matchup but it has uses against most decks (Sneak attack, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Charbelcher).

[Rizso]

I dont play Pithing needles in my board but i do play a nevermore instead. Hits more card and has good synergi with the discard spells in the deck.

[raikenxy]

has anyone thought about running MD surgicals in their builds, i've been tempted to test it out just because of the interaction with turn one discard. you could nueter the opps. strategy on turn two. Im thinking about using it now jsut to try it out as i dont like zealous persecution in my build and im not too sure what i want to add.

[EggShen]

I tried running a couple main deck prior to Deathrite Shaman being printed. It was actually pretty decent. In conjunction with Wasteland and Vindicate, it can rip a large % of lands out of opposing decks, although that's more of a corner case. Because the power level in Legacy is so high you'll always have a decent target. In some match-ups it's a game winner. Overall, I was pleasantly surprised by it and felt it earned its spot. But now I'm on the Deathrite train and have therefore cut it.

[JadeOberg]

has anyone thought about running MD surgicals in their builds, i've been tempted to test it out just because of the interaction with turn one discard. you could nueter the opps. strategy on turn two. Im thinking about using it now jsut to try it out as i dont like zealous persecution in my build and im not too sure what i want to add.

I don't think we can afford to spend a slot on a card that does nothing to actually progress our game state, unless of course you get lucky and hit a copy in their hand...but too corner case IMO. Now in a Pox build where that is your main goal...maybe.

[Wilkin]

Going to the Toronto GP (seeing as I'm from Toronto) to play Modern....although since i don't follow the format I expect to get my ass kicked. That and I hate the format so i don't really care.

I will be playing Legacy 8 man tournaments there though. I don't think they have any bigger ones there, I think the bigger side events are all limited or modern.

My main deck is mostly the same, expect I added one Bayou and one shaman. Personally, I find Shaman to be just a Noble Hierach so far although that's still awesome. The times I do use his black ability, I'm usually already winning anyway. The green splash is for when I do really need it against Reanimator or I really need that 2 life. Taking out a Damnation for a Humility in the sideboard. Only time Damnation has done anything of late is when I cast it to Kill both of my Dark Confidants as I was at 8 life and had 9 cards in hand. LOL, I think I had enough cards. Plus humility is good against a lot of decks and while Damnation is still good it's a one time thing.

I did read up on an interesting thing about Miracles in that if they use the miracle ability, the card is still technically in their hand so you can extract the one in their GY to fizzle the ability. Nice. Lately, Miracles having been 50/50 matches and I've been looking for some kind of edge. Considering adding an Abrupt Decay or 2 in the board as I find counterbalance so annoying.

[TheXile]

It's incredible against Miracles. They can't Terminus or Swords it away, and it forces them to find an EtA quickly, which means fewer angels. Or they don't find it, and lose to one card.

I haven't used it against anybody else yet. It's obviously good against any deck that doesn't chip away at your life. It could be good against a slow BUG deck, and it would definitely rock against Lands. I would bring it in against combo too, other than Dredge. You can disrupt them, play Luminarch, and hope they can't rebuild in four turns. Not ideal, but it's better than keeping StP or BB in.

Or detention sphere....

[igri_is_a_bk]

Or detention sphere....

Your comment is a waste of space. If you ever find the need to post a single card as an argument, don't. It's not a real point. They play one. Maybe.

[TheXile]

Your comment is a waste of space. If you ever find the need to post a single card as an argument, don't. It's not a real point. They play one. Maybe.

Ya..a card that U/W Miracles plays as a 2+ of when he's specifically talking about the matchup that plays them is a waste of space..Thanks for you're valuable input to the game. And they play more than 1...between 2 and 3 usually and PLENTY of ways to find it (top/brainstorm/fetches). Next time..don't be a pompous ass.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Ya..a card that U/W Miracles plays as a 2+ of when he's specifically talking about the matchup that plays them is a waste of space..Thanks for you're valuable input to the game. And they play more than 1...between 2 and 3 usually and PLENTY of ways to find it (top/brainstorm/fetches). Next time..don't be a pompous ass.

I'll do what you did then.

Or Vindicate or O-ring....

Look how I won the argument and nothing was accomplished?

[Wilkin]

I'll do what you did then.

Or Vindicate or O-ring....

Look how I won the argument and nothing was accomplished?

I agree for the most part. Miracle decks do pack at least one detention sphere but that's not the point.

Every deck needs some sort of gameplan against Miracles since it's a top tier deck. I've personally never tried Luminarch but I do play Bitterblossom and that usually does well since Sphere/O. Ring really is there only answer aside from countermagic of course.

Sure, they play Sphere but literally anything in Magic has an answer to it. Such a defeatist attitude. For example, I have Abrupt decay in the board for Counterbalance (which they play). One could say they could Misdirect it.....sure, hey if they got it, they got it. There are outs to almost any situation if you think about it. But it's a solution I have to it, and it's usually a decent choice.


Oh played some Legacy at the Toronto GP. Split the final of an 8 man single elimination for a box of Return to Ravnica. Beat Stoneblade/Miracle Variant.....Turn 2 Liliana and then turn 3 Vindicated and Wasted his only 2 lands. I was wrong about Shaman, he's insane. 2nd opponent was Burn, Hero of Bladehold won the race, all the burn he had left were Flame Rifts so he couldn't cast them. Split with an Epic Storm player.
Next day was a 40 man for some duals. 3-2 drop. Highlight was beating u/g Enchantress. So many 2 and 3 for 1's it's awesome. Vindicate was usually on land with a Sprawl or Wild Growth on it. Engineered Explosives was usually at one to take out all the mana acceleration. Lost to Goblins and High Tide. Didn't draw well against High tide.....I played 2 bobs in game 3. Drew one discard the entire game....and I drew 3 cards a turn for like 3 turns. Goblins was rough, though it did go to 3 games. Is Zealous Persecution any good against them? Or am i going to have to go the Engineered Plague route? Humility was great against them though.

[fetzonk]

I test a lot against goblins, because a friend of mine plays them. zealous persecution is devastating for the goblin deck. paired with some spirits or faeries on the board you can wipe out the entire goblin army.

i just took humility out of my sideboard, its a great card and extremly effective in this deck, but i think a sideboard card for 4cc is too expensive. I would use zealous persecution AND engineered explosives against goblins. it's nice that the explosives can answert both creatures and the vials.

[bohr2000]

Went to a local tournament en went 4-1-1 and went 2nd in the tournament.
18 participants
lost to esper stoneblade (later champion)
draw with a pox deck
won from goblins, RUG delver, pox, reanimator


here's my deck:

Creatures:11
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic

Spells:27
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Lingering Souls
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Vindicate
1 Batterskull

Lands:22
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Karakas
3 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
1 Plains
4 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath

Sideboard:15
2 Duress
1 Path to Exile
1 Pithing Needle
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Ratchet Bomb
3 Rest in Peace
1 Mirran Crusader
2 Perish
2 Timely Reinforcements


mirran crusader wil be replaced by sofaf.
I was thinking about adding mox diamond for some accelleration and mana fixing.
Will add 4th wasteland then

[Valech]

Went to a local tournament en went 4-1-1 and went 2nd in the tournament.
18 participants
lost to esper stoneblade (later champion)
draw with a pox deck
won from goblins, RUG delver, pox, reanimator


here's my deck:

Creatures:11
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic

Spells:27
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Lingering Souls
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Vindicate
1 Batterskull

Lands:22
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Karakas
3 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
1 Plains
4 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath

Sideboard:15
2 Duress
1 Path to Exile
1 Pithing Needle
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Ratchet Bomb
3 Rest in Peace
1 Mirran Crusader
2 Perish
2 Timely Reinforcements


mirran crusader wil be replaced by sofaf.
I was thinking about adding mox diamond for some accelleration and mana fixing.
Will add 4th wasteland then


Some thoughts on this.
Running three pieces of equippment will make a forth Mystic a wise choice. You will almost always have use for him, when you draw it. I also run three equippments and never had a dead Mystic in my hand, of which I run four.
Furthmore, I think a second Jitte is currently stronger than any SoXaY. It wins Jitte-wars and will surprise enemies boarding in artifact hate. It´s just a personal thing, but it always felt to slow when had to hardcast a Sword, then qeuipp it and then have a creature with which you could swing.
I´d exchange Hymn to Tourach with Cabal Therapies. While Hymn provides an amazing 2-for-1, Cabal Therapy can, if used well, kill even more threats. It´s even less likely, that it´s a bad topdeck lategame, cause you still can use it wisely if you somehow manage to know what you opponent drew.
I´d also exchange that Vindicate with an O-ring. Gives you a slight chance against Show and Tellish Decks.

[Wilkin]

Some thoughts on this.
Running three pieces of equippment will make a forth Mystic a wise choice. You will almost always have use for him, when you draw it. I also run three equippments and never had a dead Mystic in my hand, of which I run four.
Furthmore, I think a second Jitte is currently stronger than any SoXaY. It wins Jitte-wars and will surprise enemies boarding in artifact hate. It´s just a personal thing, but it always felt to slow when had to hardcast a Sword, then qeuipp it and then have a creature with which you could swing.
I´d exchange Hymn to Tourach with Cabal Therapies. While Hymn provides an amazing 2-for-1, Cabal Therapy can, if used well, kill even more threats. It´s even less likely, that it´s a bad topdeck lategame, cause you still can use it wisely if you somehow manage to know what you opponent drew.
I´d also exchange that Vindicate with an O-ring. Gives you a slight chance against Show and Tellish Decks.

I've been a fan of Therapy ever since i made the switch. Not only does it lower the mana curve, but you can sacrifice your Bobs when your life total is too low.

Yeah I run 3 equipment and 3 Mystics. I like it the way it is right now. I find Sword of Fire and Ice to be awesome though. Since we all play some sort of flying tokens, it's not hard for it to connect.The card draw is awesome too since it's the only thing besides Bob that draws extra cards.

[bohr2000]

I've been a fan of Therapy ever since i made the switch. Not only does it lower the mana curve, but you can sacrifice your Bobs when your life total is too low.

Yeah I run 3 equipment and 3 Mystics. I like it the way it is right now. I find Sword of Fire and Ice to be awesome though. Since we all play some sort of flying tokens, it's not hard for it to connect.The card draw is awesome too since it's the only thing besides Bob that draws extra cards.

The Cabal therapys are to skill intensive for my taste. The loss of tokens is also losing a lot of pressure. With the equipment these tokens are almost always winning me the game.
Hymn is so much more easy and in the early game always à killer.
À missing therapy is a wasted card. Losing a token in response will de increase this difference between the two cards even more.
3 stonforge en 3 equipment is fine with me. The sofai gives an extra piece of removal wich is pretty good late game.
The Life loss by bob is no problem with the shaman as à additional lifegainer.

[Rizso]

The Cabal therapys are to skill intensive for my taste. The loss of tokens is also losing a lot of pressure. With the equipment these tokens are almost always winning me the game.
Hymn is so much more easy and in the early game always à killer.
À missing therapy is a wasted card. Losing a token in response will de increase this difference between the two cards even more.
3 stonforge en 3 equipment is fine with me. The sofai gives an extra piece of removal wich is pretty good late game.
The Life loss by bob is no problem with the shaman as à additional lifegainer.

Well opponents gives of signals all the time. The creature I sacrifice the most to Cabal Therapy is Stoneforge Mystics. There are so many cards that reveal information as well as diffrent plays. Cabal works wonder combined with thoughtseize and Inquision of Kozilek. Against most unknown I Cabal Therapy for Brainstorm, blue players tend to keep hands with brainstorm. I against known players / decks I pick keycards to take against unrevealed hands but cabal therapy gets loads better after the first revealed hand. Cabal Therapy is worth practice with. Its way more rewarding and safe then hymn.

[Wilkin]

Well opponents gives of signals all the time. The creature I sacrifice the most to Cabal Therapy is Stoneforge Mystics. There are so many cards that reveal information as well as diffrent plays. Cabal works wonder combined with thoughtseize and Inquision of Kozilek. Against most unknown I Cabal Therapy for Brainstorm, blue players tend to keep hands with brainstorm. I against known players / decks I pick keycards to take against unrevealed hands but cabal therapy gets loads better after the first revealed hand. Cabal Therapy is worth practice with. Its way more rewarding and safe then hymn.

I agree totally. It is skill intensive but it can be game breaking. Knowing what deck your playing against, what can beat you and what your opponent is mostly likely to keep/have in their hand is crucial for a therapy to hit. Plus, there are a lot of cards that reveal cards like Delver, Stoneforge, Merchant Scroll, Dark Confidant. I've taken as many as 4 cards off of a Therapy and Flashback (sacrificed a Faerie token) in a turn.

Hymn is great right now since A. less spell snare around B. Less Misdirection right now too. But I find on the draw, Hymn to be pretty bad. Therapy is still really good on the draw since it's a 1 mana spell. Plus it's a 2 mana black spell, I found it really helped my curve and manabase by replacing them a combination of Therapy, Inquisition and Thoughtseize.

I only find therapy to be lacking when I play home brew weirdness or sub par decks. I remember playing against burn and naming Lightning Bolt and missing and seeing he had Flames of the Blood Hand. lol. Well, and of course there's the mind game if you already know some of the cards in his hand....therapy a turn later and they respond with brainstorm......

[Rizso]

I agree totally. It is skill intensive but it can be game breaking. Knowing what deck your playing against, what can beat you and what your opponent is mostly likely to keep/have in their hand is crucial for a therapy to hit. Plus, there are a lot of cards that reveal cards like Delver, Stoneforge, Merchant Scroll, Dark Confidant. I've taken as many as 4 cards off of a Therapy and Flashback (sacrificed a Faerie token) in a turn.

Hymn is great right now since A. less spell snare around B. Less Misdirection right now too. But I find on the draw, Hymn to be pretty bad. Therapy is still really good on the draw since it's a 1 mana spell. Plus it's a 2 mana black spell, I found it really helped my curve and manabase by replacing them a combination of Therapy, Inquisition and Thoughtseize.

I only find therapy to be lacking when I play home brew weirdness or sub par decks. I remember playing against burn and naming Lightning Bolt and missing and seeing he had Flames of the Blood Hand. lol. Well, and of course there's the mind game if you already know some of the cards in his hand....therapy a turn later and they respond with brainstorm......

Well everytime they have to use brainstorm to hide cards thats 1 lose bs to filter out cards you dont need. The brainstorms that replaces 2 crapcards then shuffled away are way stronger then the protect my current cards brainstorms. Spell pierce and envolpe are preetty much everywhere right now in either mains or boards. Not to mention its easier to play arround daze with cabal therapy and its less devastating if it actually does get dazed as it still has a flashback to use.

[Rizso]

Hopefully we get some cool spoilers soon so we can get some discussion going in the thread, the latest year of releases haven given the deck alot depth to it. Evolving the deck might happend fast with the next set it doesnt have to be mu cu for it to be very strong just look at deathrit shaman he looks so innocent but he has pretty much kicked noble heirarch down from the top spot of beigh a mqna dork.

[raikenxy]

hey everyone. im currently in the process of building this deck and wanted to get some advice on the current list im putting together.

lands

4 scrublands
4 marsh flats
3 verdant catacombs
2 swamp
2 plains
1 bayou
1 godless shrine
3 wasteland

creatures

2 deathrite shaman
3 mother of runes
3 mirran crusaders
4 dark confidant
4 tidehollow sculler
4 stoneforge mystic

instants/sorcery

2 cabal therapy
4 inquisition of kozileck
1 duress
3 lingering souls
4 swords to plowshares
3 vindicate

artifacts

batterskull
jitte
sword of war and peace (based on my meta)



constructive criticism towards the lsit is always appreciated and def some help building a sideboard would be wonderful. anybody have any feelings on abrupt decay being in the SB for this list ?

[Valech]

hey everyone. im currently in the process of building this deck and wanted to get some advice on the current list im putting together.

lands

4 scrublands
4 marsh flats
3 verdant catacombs
2 swamp
2 plains
1 bayou
1 godless shrine
3 wasteland

creatures

2 deathrite shaman
3 mother of runes
3 mirran crusaders
4 dark confidant
4 tidehollow sculler
4 stoneforge mystic

instants/sorcery

2 cabal therapy
4 inquisition of kozileck
1 duress
3 lingering souls
4 swords to plowshares
3 vindicate

artifacts

batterskull
jitte
sword of war and peace (based on my meta)



constructive criticism towards the lsit is always appreciated and def some help building a sideboard would be wonderful. anybody have any feelings on abrupt decay being in the SB for this list ?


Cut a plains, add a swamp/wasteland/bayou. It´s the worst card to draw, one is sufficient to play around wastelands. Exchanging Vindicates with O-rings proves to be very helpfull against show and tellish matchups. Since Sinkhole isn´t very viable anymore, the ability to shoot lands is often quite obsolete. I´d prefer a third Cabal Therapy over the Duress, but I guess that´s just a minor point. Neither do I like Mirran Crusader due to its Double W Manacost nor do I like Tidehollow Sculler in vialless builds. Also, I was a fan of Mother of Runes as well and did defend her rigorously here, but in the end she wasn´t as neat as I thought. My two Cents. Looks like a solid build over all.

[Rizso]

Deathrite Shaman is really insane atm. Fixes mana draws removal clears gy gain life and adds reach to the reachless as wel as blocks lackeys and smashes face for 1! A onedropp many waited for. Should really try as a 4 of.

Cant preach cabal therapy enought its just the best one mana discard spell there is, it takes alot of practis and research against the format but it will greatly reward the player that does goes the extra mile.

[raikenxy]

Deathrite Shaman is really insane atm. Fixes mana draws removal clears gy gain life and adds reach to the reachless as wel as blocks lackeys and smashes face for 1! A onedropp many waited for. Should really try as a 4 of.

Cant preach cabal therapy enought its just the best one mana discard spell there is, it takes alot of practis and research against the format but it will greatly reward the player that does goes the extra mile.


i'm a pretty avid dredge player so i like to think im pretyt good with cabal therapy haha. i think im cutting the duress and just making therapy a three of. i like deathrite shaman, but i only have two and just for some reason can't pull the trigger on cutting mom or not. i do like how deathrite makes casting crusader easier tho as im still undecided on hero of bladehold. im tempted now though to cut the sword of war and peace and make it sword of light and shadow, seeing as it works well with therapy. and should i put the vindicates in the sideboard and maindeck o-ring ?

[Wilkin]

Went 3-1-2 today. Made top 8 undefeated only to lose to in the top 8. Boo-urns.

Round 1. BUG, no wastelands. Not the tempo version ....it had Natural Order for Progenitus, Jace the Mind Sculptor. Won 2-1. Lost game 1 since I couldn't kill Jace.....the Natural Order for Progenitus finished me. Game 2, I inquisitioned away his Deathrite Shaman....he kept a 1 lander. So greedy. lol. Game 3. Inquisition and Therapy destroyed his hand.

Round 2. Junk. Won 2-1 i think. Highlight was Game 3. He was on the play....played a land and passed. I play a land and cast Cabal Therapy naming Dark Confidant....he reveals 2 and the other non-land card was Pridemage. Shriekmaw was good in this matchup...mostly killing Tarmogoyf and hardcasted a Shriekmaw to kill Knight of the Reliquary.

Round 3. RUG Tempo..Canadian Threshold. Game 1 was quick since I had 3 wastelands in a row and he had no turn 1 dude. Game 2, rest in peace. gg. Well, that and 6 tokens and a Jitte.

Round 4 and 5 ID.

Round 6. lost 2-0 to BUG tempo. Daze back to back on my Hero of Bladeholds sucked for me. Hymn to Tourach was devastating too.


Notes:
23 players today.....I swear half the decks in the meta today had Deathrite Shaman in them. Also noticing that some decks either cut down on Force of Will or don't even bother. Which is bad for us.
-I only saw a few combo decks....one High Tide, One ANT, and one Food Chain.
-RUG and BUG were everywhere.
-No show and tell which is surprising since we usually have at least 2 players every time.
-No Miracles either, which is interesting since again there's usually a few people playing that deck.
-Hymn is so annoying. Thinking of crap to board in to deal if the Hymn/Liliana trend continues. Any suggestions? Wilt-Leaf Liege seems good. Unfortunately I don't have any and they are hard to find because of crappy Modern.
-When Hero resolved she was great. In one game even though she only swung once, she made 2 dudes for me.
-because of the meta the way it was.....My anti-combo hate was useless, I also never boarded in Zealous Persecution. It was mostly Engineered Explosives and Rest in Peace.
-Shriekmaw was good today. Mostly a crappy 2 mana terror but if it resolves it can buy time vs. a tempo deck. Was able to hard cast it twice.
-Therapy was awesome taking 2 Bobs blind and a Lightning bolt blind against RUG.

[fetterfool]

Have not tried but....Mirran Crusader seems awesome against BUG. Play around Daze if you haven't seen your opponent's hand (which you should have). Other than daze, Jace is their only real way to deal with Crusader..

Unfortunately Crusader sucks against RUG, the other rampant deck at tournaments. Maybe he should be in the sideboard or some sort of mainboard/sideboard split would work.

[Wilkin]

Have not tried but....Mirran Crusader seems awesome against BUG. Play around Daze if you haven't seen your opponent's hand (which you should have). Other than daze, Jace is their only real way to deal with Crusader..

Unfortunately Crusader sucks against RUG, the other rampant deck at tournaments. Maybe he should be in the sideboard or some sort of mainboard/sideboard split would work.


Normally, I would try and play around Daze....but I couldn't. He had an active Liliana and I was down to top deck mode....so it's either Cast Hero and risk it getting countered or hold onto Hero and let it get discarded.

Crusader as a sideboard for BUG is an interesting option. The only creature that could block it is Delver so Crusader is essentially unblockable. Liliana is the only way they could really kill it. And as you said, while Crusader would be the bomb against BUG, against RUG....not so much.

[Barook]

And as you said, while Crusader would be the bomb against BUG, against RUG....not so much.
Sure, they can burn it. Doesn't take away the fact that Crusader makes RUG's creature base his bitch. Delvers die and Mongoose & Goyf can be blocked all day long while they can't block Crusader. Having a Mom to protect him from burn certainly helps, though.

[JanoschEausH]

I have played 3 Mirran Crusaders for a long time an various tournaments. I aggree, that he is a good choice against alot of decks, but only paired with Mother of Runes. I recently swapped him out in favour of Hero of Bladehold. Hero is a beast. Really. Its the best clock one could imagine in this kind of deck. Try him out!

For reference, this is my list (i know, my manabase is not perfect at all...):

Artifact

1 Batterskull
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Creature

4 Dark Confidant
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Hero of Bladehold
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic

Land

2 Isolated Chapel
1 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
5 Swamp
3 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath

Instant

4 Swords to Plowshares

Planeswalker

2 Liliana of the Veil

Sorcery

1 Duress
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Hymn to Tourach
4 Lingering Souls
2 Vindicate

[Rizso]

Spoiler season is ongoing. Maybe we will get some goodies. The Orzhov cards has been pretty sweet so far but on the higher curve where legacy is a bit to fast and wasteland vulnerable.

[Wilkin]

Spoiler season is ongoing. Maybe we will get some goodies. The Orzhov cards has been pretty sweet so far but on the higher curve where legacy is a bit to fast and wasteland vulnerable.

The angel is interesting but nothing even remotely legacy playable imo.

The 6 mana thrull has a decent recursion ability but six mana is too much.
Alms Beast is terrible. It doesn't beat out Hero of Bladehold or Elspeth Knight-Errant. Heck, I think Persecutor is still better than the beast.
The new Ghost Council is too much at 5 mana but I'm sure it will see standard play....and in limited it's an uber bomb.
The High Priest isn't really playable...I lol'ed when someone posted that an active Jitte is good on this guy. lol, pretty much any creature is good with an active Jitte.


So far I'm kind of meh over the set. Still, there are a ton of cards to spoil as I heard that there won't be basic lands in this set. So just under 200 cards to go....Maybe the hybrid black/white card will be good. Still crossing my fingers that the Cozen (sp) make an appearance as a 187 creature. A good one. lol.

[Rizso]

Alms beast is awesome, just not for legacy :P

The high priest does work great with the either sword of light and shadows and sword of fire and ice.

[Wilkin]

Alms beast is awesome, just not for legacy :P

The high priest does work great with the either sword of light and shadows and sword of fire and ice.

Oh for sure, any sword on him is great, especially SOFI. I just feel that since he needs some sort of equipment (IMO) to really work, it's not worth it. In my games, my equipment usually don't last long so that priest would essentially be a smaller version of Phyrexian Obliterator. In other words, I can't always rely on equipment sticking around long enough for him to really shine.

Some people have mentioned he would be good in a Death and Taxes style deck that has black for him and bob. Sounds good. But not my style of deck since that is a really grindy deck. Deadguy Ale isn't a fast deck at all, I can't play a deck slower than that. lol.

[Kpicco]

Happy New Years all.
First time poster here. Just built this deck with my over-time holiday bonus / trade ins. What do you think of my list? Any suggestions?

Also, I've begun to call this deck Deathrite Ale. Cards too good.

Lands
3 Scrubland
1 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
1 Karakas
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
3 Swamp
1 Plains

Artifacts
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Enchantments
3 Bitterblossom

Instants
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Zealous Persecution

Sorceries
4 Lingering Souls
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Vindicate
3 Thoughtsieze

Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Deathrite Shaman

Planeswalkers
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad

Any tips appreciated. :)

[Kpicco]

^ Guess I should have included my sideboard

Sideboard
Duress 4
Karakas 1
Umezawa's Jitte 1
Sword of Fire and Ice 1
Extirpate 3
Zealous Persecution 2
Rest in Peace 2
Vindicate 1

[Rizso]

Dont you miss not playing Liliana? She has been fantastic for me.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Turn one Deathrite, turn two Liliana is one of the scariest sequence of plays we can make. I'm actually playing 4 Deathrite and 2 Mox right now to increase the chance of dropping her on the second turn. She is an automatic 4-of in my Deadguy list for the foreseeable future.

@Kpicco. With Maverick on the decline, I would say definitely put your Z. Persecution in the sb. I'd also drop the Tops to make room for 4 Liliana.

[Rizso]

With counterspell on its way down it might be time to adopt the blade splicer and restoration angel with maybe a or 2 cavern of souls.

[nottz]

If counterspells are on there way down why play the caverns?

[Rizso]

If counterspells are on there way down why play the caverns?

Force of wills are on its way down thought daze and counterbalance is still there.

[Raggedjoe]

Hi there! I've been playing a more control-oriented BWg list for a while, and was wondering if this was the proper place to discuss it, or if this thread is really for aggro oriented decks. My most recent list is:

Creatures:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
2 Phyrexian Revoker

Artifacts:
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

Planeswalkers:
4 Liliana of the Veil

Spells:
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Vindicate
3 Lingering Souls

Lands:
3 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Scrublands
1 Bayou
3 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Forest

Sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Manriki-Gusari
3 Bitterblossom
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Tidehollow Sculler

[Valech]

I would cut a Plains and add a Scrubland. Or even better the Forest, cause it is simply the worst card you could draw. The drawback of the latter would of course be to have no certain access to G for Abrupt Decay. That´s why I don´t play Decay. But I can see its appeal.

Revoker is a very strong card in vialbuilds cause it can be (uncounterably) brought in in response to something. I dont clearly see its place in this build. It´s just a expensive Needle with a weakness to removal.

Tops are an on/off card for me. Can´t really decide. Sometimes they save your lategame, sometimes they just stretch the time until you lose.

Three Thoughseizes may be a bit much. Try to split them with Inquisition. Four Lilianas are one too much for my taste, but she´s undeniable a beast.

[Raggedjoe]

I dunno. I keep going back and forth on that Forest. Sometimes fetching it is really really good. Revoker is something I thought I'd try out because we are a bit weak to 'walkers if we don't draw Lingering Souls early. I chose it over Needle because I figured another Body might be nice, and in my experience discard and DRS draw out enough removal for it to be worthwhile. Plus I think 12 bodies is a little low, especially when you don't really want to be swinging with 8 of them.

We got a top 32 at Columbus: http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/43301

[Rizso]

Finally arrived a card gatecrash thats interesting. Orzhov Charm, what makes this card interesting? Not only can it kill a creature it can also bring back creatures. Creatures that makes the card more interesting is Death's Shadow. Been thinking of that card before but never really hit the fan before.

[Wilkin]

Finally arrived a card gatecrash thats interesting. Orzhov Charm, what makes this card interesting? Not only can it kill a creature it can also bring back creatures. Creatures that makes the card more interesting is Death's Shadow. Been thinking of that card before but never really hit the fan before.

It's an interesting card for sure. I had to read it again, it can kill any creature. LOL, I'm so used to it saying non-black, monocoloured, converted mana cost 3 or less, nonartifact etc. etc.

I wish it was CMC 2 or less to bring back but that would be crazy being able to bring back Bob or Mystic. But even at 1 it's alright. Deathrite Shaman or Mother of Runes.

The first ability is alright being able to save a guy, although I can't think of any auras that are playable. All in all, I think it's a decent card, I'll probably put one in the board. I was hoping the first ability was a duress like ability instead of being so creature centric. Still, it's a good card being able to kill any creature or bring back Deathrite Shaman.

As far as Death's Shadow is concerned....not a huge fan of it. I know some blue/black versions of it did ok but I just know the minute I try that deck I'm going to run into burn all day. But maybe that deck could slash white for this card. And someone in another post mentioned Dreadnought. Hmmm......now that's intriguing.

[Rizso]

It's an interesting card for sure. I had to read it again, it can kill any creature. LOL, I'm so used to it saying non-black, monocoloured, converted mana cost 3 or less, nonartifact etc. etc.

I wish it was CMC 2 or less to bring back but that would be crazy being able to bring back Bob or Mystic. But even at 1 it's alright. Deathrite Shaman or Mother of Runes.

The first ability is alright being able to save a guy, although I can't think of any auras that are playable. All in all, I think it's a decent card, I'll probably put one in the board. I was hoping the first ability was a duress like ability instead of being so creature centric. Still, it's a good card being able to kill any creature or bring back Deathrite Shaman.

As far as Death's Shadow is concerned....not a huge fan of it. I know some blue/black versions of it did ok but I just know the minute I try that deck I'm going to run into burn all day. But maybe that deck could slash white for this card. And someone in another post mentioned Dreadnought. Hmmm......now that's intriguing.

Just being on the defensive will take you below 13 hp. Thoughtseize, bitterblossom, dark confidant, opponents attacking you.

[fetzonk]

I am not convinced by the new charm. It's nice, but in my Deck there is no card that is weaker than the charm. There is no slot the charm can really improve. In many matches the liveloss that is connected to the 2nd ability would have simply killed me (sometimes a turn later).

Seldom i have 2 mana open in my opponents turns, so the 1st ability is rarely playable to rescue my threats.

Recurring a 1-Drop isn't that great either. Not enough targets in our Deck.

I have no experience if Death's Shadow, but i think the inclusion would make a whole different deck.

[Lormador]

Greetings Deadguy Ale community.

I have been playing the Caleb Durward list for a few months now, since it appeared pretty much, and now it's by far the deck I enjoy playing most. I have altered the main deck slightly. The list I am currently working with is here.


Creatures (17)
2 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Dark Confidant
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Hero of Bladehold
2 Mirran Crusader
3 Stoneforge Mystic

Planeswalkers (4)
4 Liliana of the Veil

Lands (20)
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Arid Mesa
1 Bayou
1 Windswept Heath
3 Isolated Chapel
4 Marsh Flats
3 Scrubland
3 Verdant Catacombs

Spells (19)
1 Batterskull
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Oblivion Ring
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
3 Thoughtseize

This is the same as the Nov 4 6th place Hendricks SCG finishing one, except for:
-1 Chrome Mox
-2 Aven Mindcensor
+1 Stoneforge Mystic
+1 Plains
+1 Inquisition of Kozilek

There are also some small differences in the mana. I have 3 Scrublands so I use an extra fetch, I hate Godless Shrine so I use an extra basic. The mana base changes will have to stick, I'm not buying another dual. I don't think that's too important.

The Mindcensors seemed high on the mana cost and I like equipment, there's also lots of combo in Beijing and besides, I really like seeing the other player's hand on turn 1 and mapping out my strategy. Have I made the deck worse with this change? If so, how much and in what way?

I don't like messing with the main much, but the sideboard I enjoy tinkering with. I'm running this. I'll note which have proven themselves and which require testing and explanation. If anyone would care to comment on the board, or the deck, I would very much appreciate the insight.

Sideboard
1 Gatekeeper of Malakir (in Durward's list)
1 Shrieking Affliction (tested, surprisingly useful)
1 Perish (from 2 in Durward's list)
1 Zealous Persecution (from 2 in Durward's list)
1 Honor of the Pure (new addition, untested)
1 Rest in Peace (original)
1 Ethersworn Canonist (original)
2 Enlightened Tutor (+1 from Durward's original)
1 Luminarch Ascension (Durward recommended from PM re: Miracles)
1 Pithing Needle (original)
1 Sword of War and Peace (original)
1 Sword of Feast and Famine (original)
1 Ratchet Bomb (new addition, untested)
1 Cursed Scroll (new addition, untested)

It's a bunch of 1-of cards because, first, all but 3 of the cards can be tutored for, and second I don't like to board in more than a few cards in most matchups, just to remove whatever less useful cards were in the main. The main is strong and flexible.

With this list I'm off 1 each on Zealous Persecution and Perish, I'm down a Relic of Progenitus, an Engineered Plague, and a Darkblast. I would be down another Inquisition, but that's in the main now. I'm up an Enlightened Tutor, Shrieking Affliction, Honor of the Pure, Luminarch Ascension, Ratchet Bomb, and Cursed Scroll. I'll explain my opinions for each, and anyone else is welcome to explain why I'm a complete idiot for taking perfectly good cards out and putting in this rubbish.

Luminarch Ascension was recommended to me against Miracles, or any slower control deck. No argument there, this card has the stamp of approval.

Honor of the Pure is a recent addition. The best players in my area have been using Sulphur Elemental and Engineered Plague (Spirits) against my Lingering Souls token army. Those tokens are my Plan A, a large and otherwise resilient force. Honor will protect them from that stuff and buff almost all of my other creatures too: while costing less than the effects they counteract. I can deploy it at my convenience, and tutor for it. It amuses me that my Luminarch angels will be bigger that the Entreated ones with this bad boy.

Ratchet Bomb for three reasons. 1) I can't get color screwed off of the needed destruction level, 2) it can hit 4 CC, thus Jace, and 3) primarily this defends against Entreat tokens. Engineered Explosives is the usual card here, this is the same vs tokens, slower but more flexible against the rest. Also it's amusing for opponents to try and anticipate at what number you'll eventually crack it. EE is known to all immediately.

Cursed Scroll is the Darkblast replacement. A lot of bad things have happened to my Darkblasts in my graveyard, and what with the Swords + Deathrite + discard it's not always absolutely needed turn 1. Scroll is much slower and more ponderous, but ultimately does a lot more. It picks off Shaman and Mystic, flipped Delver, Mother of Runes, pressures Walkers... It pings Jace post-Terminus. Amazing with Liliana, this is a play from the Pox book.

Shrieking Affliction looks completely ridiculous at first. What this does, in addition to just being lethal with Liliana, is land easy damage when the board is locked down for whatever reason. Again, from the Pox play book. Liliana, plus this, will get around Leyline of Sanctity, Energy Field, Humility, and Moat combined. Every match tends to grind with Deadguy, and devolve into a topdeck war. If creatures generally aren't performing, Affliction comes in. I stole a match against a Prison deck that otherwise eats Deadguy for lunch. Miracles depletes their hand very quickly between discards, lands, and Force of Will in addition to permanents. Affliction punishes them for it. It's like a baby Luminarch that ignores Energy Field.

[Valech]

Thank you for posting that List Lormador. Cause it seems like you have quite some experience with it I´d like to ask you some questions.

Has one Bayou been enough for you or were there cases in which you have wished for another green manasource? Also, did you add a second plains for crusader and hero?
Then, how were the scullers for you? I played them some time ago and they never seemed to be overwhelmingly good in a vial-less build. Comparing my build to you, I mainly switched them with a fourth Mystic and a fourth Shaman.
Do you think the Top is good as a one-off? I usually played at least two of them. Same for Cabal Therapy. I´d cut a thoughtseize and add a second Therapy.
Im very interested in your response, because I was tweaking my deck in the very same direction.

[fetzonk]

Hi Lormador,

welcome to the board :). For reference, my current list...


Artifact (5)
1x Batterskull
1x Chrome Mox
2x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Umezawa's Jitte

Enchantment (2)
2x Oblivion Ring


Creature (17)
4x Dark Confidant
4x Deathrite Shaman
2x Hero of Bladehold
2x Mirran Crusader
3x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Tidehollow Sculler

Instant (4)
4x Swords to Plowshares

Planeswalker (4)
4x Liliana of the Veil

Sorcery (9)
1x Cabal Therapy
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Lingering Souls
2x Thoughtseize


Land (19)
1x Bayou
1x Bloodstained Mire
2x Isolated Chapel
1x Karakas
4x Marsh Flats
1x Plains
4x Scrubland
1x Swamp
2x Verdant Catacombs
2x Windswept Heath


Sideboard (15)
SB: 1x Engineered Explosives
SB: 1x Pithing Needle
SB: 1x Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1x Sword of Feast and Famine
SB: 1x Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1x Aura of Silence
SB: 1x Engineered Plague
SB: 1x Rest in Peace
SB: 1x Darkblast
SB: 1x Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2x Zealous Persecution
SB: 1x Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2x Duress





You will notice that my list is also based on Caleb's. In my opinion the mana-curve in his should be flattenend a bit. Well, we only have 20 reliable manasources.
My differences to Caleb's list

Out
-2x Aven Mindcensor
-1x Thoughtseize
-1x Umezawa's Jitte
-1x Godless Shrine
-1x Isolated Chapel



In
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Karakas
1x Bloodstained Mire




The exclude of the Thoughtseize is a budget-decision. Top and Deathrite for more stability, Karakas against Sneak and Show and opposing Thalia's, the extrafetch to have a better use of the extratop.

So overall, we have a pretty similar approach to the maindeck. I tend to agree with you on the exclusion of the chrome mox. Sometimes it generates an insane first and second turn, but awesome as these starts are, they are also quiet risky and later in the game the chrome mox is just terrible. Not sure what to take yet, but i think i will switch chrome mox with some land.
Also Caleb's build is pretty light on discard for a DGA Deck. I understand bringing in an extra IoK.

My Sideboard:
I made sideboard plans for approx. 25 established Decks (+DtB) and found that caleb's sideboard, that i mostly kept, was very versatile. Very often i had the problem that i could board in 5-10 cards, but only could board out much less cards. Sideboard-Cards that looked very nice on it's own, often had no place in the main deck in certain matchups, because there were better(faster) alternatives already boarded in or in the mainboard. Maybe some more narrow and powerful hosers would be an idea.
I thought, that caleb's sideboard was a little too slow/disruptive against combo. That's why i put in the 2 Duress. As a sideboard-card Duress imo is better discard than IoK. It can hit Jace, Sneak Attack and lots of other stuff i don't remember yet. Against Elves it's not playable though. But against Elves the sideboard is already nuts.
The missing Jitte from the maindeck went into the sideboard and I added an Engineered Explosives instead of the 2 Perish of Caleb's list. Against the Decks that pack green creatures, there are already such strong cards in the main and sideboard. I think perish isn't necessarily needed.

Your Sideboard:
1 Gatekeeper of Malakir (in Durward's list):
-The Gatekeeper is really solid. Because our mana-base is that fragile i happen to search mostly for the only two basics i have (plains/swamp) in the first turns. Playing a non-basic before turn two was often some kind of gamble. Because of this hitting the BBB-Manacost was tricky at times. The decks i would bring this creature in against, mostly pack 4 Wastelands (Sneak and Show being the exception). As you have 4 basics in the list you don't have this problem. Good card.

1 Shrieking Affliction (tested, surprisingly useful):
-Not sure about this one. It's kind of a lategame-card for 1 mana and only wanted if the opponent has 1 or less cards in hand, no dangerous threads on the board or we have stalemate. Often just having a big finisher like Hero of Bladehold would do the same in such situation. With liliana on the battlefield, this card would be kind of win more. Against which matchups would you bring Shrieking Affliction in? What to board out?

1 Perish (from 2 in Durward's list):
-Playing perish is reasonable. If i would bring perish back in to my sideboard, i would only use 1 too.

1 Zealous Persecution (from 2 in Durward's list):
-I don't agree here. Zealous Persecution is so devastating against some decks. I would keep 2. Often this card just won the game (combat phase tricks, against pyrokinesis, sweep the weenies)

1 Honor of the Pure (new addition, untested):
-Hmm, we don't have that many creatures. There are games, where we will see no Lingering Souls at all. Honor of the Pure isn't powerful on it's own. It has to rely on creatures. I say, get rid of annoyances like Engineered Plague or Sulphur Elemental with stuff like Engineered Explosives, Creature Removal, Oblivion Ring.

1 Rest in Peace (original):
-Only had it online against RUG Delver. Was devastating for my opponent. Absolut must against graveyard-oriented decks.

1 Ethersworn Canonist (original)
-Never used it, but is a staple.

2 Enlightened Tutor (+1 from Durward's original):
-I am not sure, if i want two. It's still card disadvantage. But with so many tutor targets definately playable. It's kind of weak against blue.

1 Luminarch Ascension (Durward recommended from PM re: Miracles):
-It's great. I am not sure, if we really need it though. I had it in my sideboard too, but thought that we already have some decent cards against miracles (batterskull being one). In my meta there aren't much miracle decks, so have never really looked into it.

1 Pithing Needle (original):
-Versatile staple

1 Sword of War and Peace (original)
1 Sword of Feast and Famine (original)
-I know, both swords are from Caleb's list. I only run SoFaF and i am not sure, when to use it. I am sure that is correct to board it in against reactive Decks and Combo, but against creature decks like Maverick, Team America and Rug Delver i am not. The swords often feel slow and the livegain/creaturehate from jitte is needed. Against Maverick, i want to legendary rule their jitte. I am totally undecided here and would be happy on any advice, when to use both swords and what to board out for them in those matchups.

1 Ratchet Bomb (new addition, untested)
-Ratchet Bomb is really slow if you draw it later in the game and need to answer. I am running Engineered Explosives instead

1 Cursed Scroll (new addition, untested)
-I like this a lot. Played pox myself for a while. Often Cursed Scroll sealed the game. I have to test it though. Maybe i take darkblast out for this one.

Disclaimer:
I am aware that i could be wrong in my assumptions because i am pretty new to this kind of "Dead Guy"-Deck. Before i used a more reactive build (Plainswalkers+Bitterblossom). I have given a lot of thought especially into the use of the sideboard cards, but definately lack the tournament-experience with this deck. I did quiet a lot playtesting, but there are still some matchups, where i am not definately sure, which sideboard-card to bring in.
Please excuse if i sound harsh or impolite, its not intended. That's mostly the language barrier. I am not used posting in english forums anymore. I read a lot though :).

[Lormador]

Thank you both very much for your replies!

@Valech
I don't have that much experience with this deck. I entered BW in October, discovered the Durward list in November and became enthralled by it. Gradually, it became the only list I will play. I have taken it to 2 local tournaments (about 20 players) since (the only opportunities my job allowed me at the time), split 1st at one of them and barely made top 8 at the most recent. Now it is the only deck I play.

Re: the second Plains, I added to replace Chrome Mox, thinking of all the double white mana costs and because Beijing is insane for Wasteland. I think I will go back to the Chrome Mox. I have to admit it is a good card in some matchups, combo in particular. I've also never lost with an opening grip containing Chrome Mox. I'm going to put it back in.

Re: the Bayou, there has only been one time I really wanted life from the Shaman, and my Bayou was enough. Commonly the deck I want to gain life against is RUG, and DRS is not something they will allow to live. The land I would change is my Arid Mesa. This should really be a Windswept Heath so it could fetch the Bayou.

Re: Tidehollow Sculler, I simply love him and often wonder why I'm not playing 3. He helps so much against a lot of decks. Great for combo, aggro has to remove him, control hates him... If I tried to list all the uses for him my post would be too long. When do you board him out? I keep him in against everything. Mystic is great too, but a bit cold to combo. A 4th DRS is nice to have as well, still cold to combo though.

Re: Top, I'm always happy to see it and it only comes out vs Miracles. I'm sure running 2 is fine. It can be a bit slow however, and rarely leads to disaster. I kept a one Plains hand with Top... No land with the top 5 cards, and I lost quickly. In an Aggro deck the threat density needs to be high. Top is great when we are the control deck. When we need to be aggressive I do not like it much. It's great as a 1-of, that's how the original Durward list had it.

Re: Cabal Therapy, I hate making Therapy calls without information, but this could be really crushing. Perhaps my extra discard spell should be a Therapy instead of an Inquisition. I'll give this a try. Certainly it is nice against Stoneforge Mystic. I don't think cutting a Thoughtseize is right though, I'd rather cut Inquisition. Miracles is the hardest matchup I've found, they've got enough CC4+ cards that a Brainstorm can hide all the targets for Inquisition!

...

@fetzonk

Thank you for your reply! Don't worry, your comments aren't rude at all. If I didn't want a critical response, I wouldn't have posted my deck. I'll get down to it.

In the main deck, we seem to have a similar direction... Mindcensors out, an extra Mystic, we both did that. I really like Thoughtseize against our worst matchup (in my experience), Miracles. They are adapting to Abrupt Decay and coming right back into the meta. Another Top I'm sure if fine, especially if you expect to grind a lot.

Two things I don't think will help are cutting a Jitte and adding a Karakas. I don't really think the Karakas is worth it at 19 land. As for Jitte, I consider our most reliable (because resilient) route to victory a Jitte-equipped Spirit token army. Bad things happen to the Jitte, and what then? Why have 3 Mystics but only 2 targets? I really think the second Jitte is important.

Our approaches to the main deck are indeed similar. We are both lowering the curve a little and adding a Mystic, anyway.

...

Now for the sideboard. The best results I ever got with this were using Caleb's original board. When I changed it, I did badly. I read this great article and reworked everything: http://http://www.wizards.com/sideboard/article.asp?x=sb20001220b. I read this years ago, but was so into combo then that I only paid attention to the transformative board section!

After going through the process described in the article I came up with this. I've played enough in my meta to make a list of the local decks, and that's what I'm trying to beat so forgive me if it seems skewed away from what the general community is doing.

All the local decks being played right now are pretty much these: DnT, Miracles, mirror match, Merfolk, Jund, RUG, Storm, Nic Fit, Elves, S&T, Junk, Esperblade, and BUG.

My entirely new sideboard is this:
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Manriki Gusari
1 Cursed Scroll
2 Pithing Needle
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Shrieking Affliction
1 Honor of the Pure
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Rest In Peace
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Runed Halo
1 Enlightened Tutor

Ratchet Bomb is going in for DnT, Merfolk, Storm, Miracles, and BUG. Storm might seem silly, but it's less dead than StP. Against DnT and Merfolk I really only need it at 1-2 counters. Storm needs it at 0. Miracles and BUG want it either at 0 or at 4. So in most situations where I'd be using Ratchet Bomb, it's barely slower than Explosives and also offers that X=4 option to kill Jace.

Shreiking Affliction is going in for Miracles, Esperblade, Jund, and BUG. Vs. Miracles it's not as good as Luminarch Ascension, but Ascension is cold to the other matchups. It's fine against Jund. They can't Bolt it, it's resistant to discard, and most everything on the board is usually destroyed. It's better than the Thoughtseizes and Chrome Mox it's going in for.

My specific board in those MUs it this:
Miracles:
- StP, -Chrome Mox, -Top (6 cards)
+2 Pithing Needle, + Ratchet Bomb, + Cursed Scroll, +Runed Halo, +Shrieking Affliction

Esperblade:
-2 Inquisitions, Thoughtseize, Chrome Mox (6 cards)
+Relic of Progenitus, +Manriki, +Honor of the Pure, +Ethersworn Canonist, +Cursed Scroll, +Shrieking Affliction

Jund:
-Thoughtseize, Cabal Therapy, Chrome Mox (5)
+Ethersworn Canonist, Cursed Scroll, Shrieking Affliction, Runed Halo, Relic of Progenitus

BUG:
-Thoughtseize, Chrome Mox (4)
+2 Pithing Needle, Shrieking Affliction, Ratchet Bomb

Not sure if all this is right, like I said I need help with my board.


Zealous Persecution is a card I'd like to run more of, but it's only really good in DnT, the mirror, and Elves. Most of the deck is live against those matchups though, and I have enough other good SB cards to include that if I brought more Persecutions, it would be an overcommitment of resources.

Honor of the Pure comes in for the mirror, Esperblade, Jund, and RUG. This is how I plan to win the mirror, and RUG's most threatening SB card is Sulphur Elemental. Maybe not the most crushing card, but it's not too bad and it's better than what it's replacing in each case. I know there are a lot of players who wouldn't want to try such conditional cards as this (it needs a white creature to do anything), but the benefit of running this vs. removal is that this one is proactive. Plague/Elemental/Dread of Night is quite likely to wipe me. Removing the offender later leaves me with sharply reduced forces.

Cursed Scroll is my new Darkblast, the weakness of which ( I realized) is it getting Needled. This will go in against a full 7 of the local decks I mentioned. Against, it might not be the hottest tech ever, but it's clearly better in those grindy matchups the center on smallish creatures than spending 2 life and a mana to score a discard.

I am concerned that the drawback might be big though. 3 mana to get online, must have 1 card in hand... it'll take awhile for the investment to pay off, whereas Darkblast is awesome from turn 1. On the other hand, this can come in against control. I'll try it.

...

In general when I followed the procedure of the article I noticed huge mistakes in my sideboard. Durward's original SB is great, I'm sure, for the meta the deck did so well in and it's fine for mine. Now that I know what people are playing with, I think this will be even better. I'm still going to have a pretty tough Miracles matchup and I don't really have that much experience with the BUG game. I was surprised to find myself cutting the Swords of XnY, but they just don't really do enough in this field.

...

Edit: I think I need to work more on the Jund matchup. What should we take out for it? I was thinking all the discard spells + Chrome Mox, but they may keep Hymn. I just went 0-2 MD against Jund. Two questions.

1. Is the hand of fetch, fetch, Scrubland, Isolated Chapel, Chrome Mox, Liliana, Liliana (on the draw) keepable? I mulled this, wound up going to 5, and was soundly beaten. I'm wondering if I should have kept it.

2. What's the best play for this hand, on the play this time (mull to 6).
Verdant Catacombs, Isolated Chapel, Bayou, Top, Stoneforge Mystic, Dark Confidant

I fetched a Plains and played the Top. Opponent dropped a Badlands and passed. I drew a Mirran Crusader, played Stoneforge -> Jitte and passed. Opponent played a Bayou and Abrupt Decayed the Mystic.

On T3 I untapped, drew a Marshlands, played the Marshlands and the Mirran Crusader. Opponent played a Badlands, Bolted the Crusader, and cast Hymn to Tourach. Here I made the mistake which would (I think) cost me the game, I failed to realize I could draw with Top and greatly increase my chances of saving either Bob or the Jitte. Instead I lost them both, and later the game.

I wonder, should I have played the Confidant before the Crusader? Or the Jitte before either? Once I had the mana to Top, I easily found a Lingering Souls, but by then I was facing Tarmogoyf, then Bloodbraid Elf, Dark Confidant, Grim Lavamancer... I lost.

I feel I had a great hand, what did I do wrong?

[fetzonk]

Hi, unfortunately i dont have much time. I am on mobile. Just want to point out that you played in both situations corrctly. A hand just with lands and lili is bad, you got unlucky. 2nd situation: you had a great hand(though lacking discard), played correctly, but the opponent had all the answers...a even better hand. I think jund is overall a bad matchup for us. Direct damage kills almost every creature in our deck.
I am thinking about playing less creatureheavy deck. More reactive, maybe thats the way to go in a jund meta. I dont have sideboard answers yet.

[Lormador]

That's curious. I haven't felt it to be a bad matchup, though certainly a close one, and the Jund primer on this very forum lists Deadguy Ale as a bad matchup for Jund.

I'm completely sure not drawing with Top in response to his Hymn was a mistake. Either Jitte, with Lingering Souls close at hand, or Dark Confidant with an empty board (and a Top on the library to boot) would have been a far stronger position than what I ended up with: a land in hand and a Top for a board. If my opponent made the same play but I'd played Confidant, I could have spun the top for Lingering Souls to put that into my hand instead of a random card.

I also think playing the Mirran Crusader before the Dark Confidant was wrong. My opponent had just Decayed a Mystic and I had a Top out. If Bolt had been his only removal spell, Mirran would have been far more threatening. If he Decayed or Pulsed the Confidant, that's one less removal that can hit Jitte and that's too much mana to Hymn the same turn.

Part of my personal problem with this deck is that it seems to put me ahead. I saw that hand and thought it was sure to win. When I think I'm ahead, I get sloppy. I play out the flashy Mirran Crusader instead of the more correct Dark Confidant. I fail to notice possibilities in that crushing moment when my advantage evaporates (the Top draw). Afterward, I might fight back but I may be too far behind, or the match may go to time. I lost top 8 match to RUG due to similar mistakes, and there's no question that matchup favors us.

...

I realize that Jund can remove either of these cards with their removal, but Rest in Peace combined with Cursed Scroll kills every creature in their deck. Cursed Scroll is enough by itself against everything except Goyf.

Also, you're right fetzonk, Ratchet Bomb is too slow. I managed to trade for one last night, so it's going in.

That Jund player was very pleased to show off the Dread of Night in his sideboard. I don't understand how it can be right to just try and remove this after it hits play. If Jund plays the Dread, killing 1 of my creatures, and I respond with E.E. @1 killing nothing except his Dread, did I not just get 2-for-1ed? In practice he may kill more with that Dread, and I'm likely to destroy more of my own things with EE@1, as well as his.

[Karang029]

Hey guys. I'm a long time Nic-Fit player and I'm planning on this to be my next project.

Here is the decklist I'm testing.

Creatures:14
3x Dark Confidant
3x Deathrite Shaman
3x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Hero of Bladehold
2x Mirran Crusader
2x Tidehallow Sculler

Instant/Sorcery:15
3x Swords to Plowshares
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Lingering Souls
3x Hymn to Tourach

Artifacts:4
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte
2x Chrome Mox

Planeswalkers/Enchant:5
3x Lilana of the Veil
2x Bitterblossom

Land:22
3x Scrubland
1x Bayou
1x Forest
3x Wasteland
4x Marsh Flats
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Plains
3x Swamp

I currently don't have a sideboard but considering my combo heavy meta(hence the overhaul of discard) I almost want to find room for a three of Thalia in either the main or sideboard.

[Lormador]

Maybe these things are fine, but it's quite unconventional to run less than 4 Confidants, to mix Therapy with Hymn, and to play a basic Forest without Abrupt Decay.

Lately I've been thinking hard about Hero of Bladehold. Is he really worth 4 mana? Sure, I've won with him and there are times when he is great. But 4 is a lot when all engines should be firing on turns 2-3. He isn't often bigger than Goyf, at half his cost. I thought of Wilt Leaf Liege as a replacement, which seems good, except 4 is still a problem. I want something cheaper, I do not want another Mystic but a creature with immediate impact. Honestly I'm wondering if Paladin en-Vec might come out of retirement. He has protection from Jund.

[Greenpoe]

Maybe these things are fine, but it's quite unconventional to run less than 4 Confidants, to mix Therapy with Hymn, and to play a basic Forest without Abrupt Decay.

Lately I've been thinking hard about Hero of Bladehold. Is he really worth 4 mana? Sure, I've won with him and there are times when he is great. But 4 is a lot when all engines should be firing on turns 2-3. He isn't often bigger than Goyf, at half his cost. I thought of Wilt Leaf Liege as a replacement, which seems good, except 4 is still a problem. I want something cheaper, I do not want another Mystic but a creature with immediate impact. Honestly I'm wondering if Paladin en-Vec might come out of retirement. He has protection from Jund.
Paladin en-Vec, or Mirran Crusader? Tried Percy? If you want straight beef + evasion, he's good. Anyway, all of these choices dodge Abrupt Decay, which is nice.

[fetzonk]

@Lormador:
Maybe i am wrong about jund being a bad matchup. haven't played against it at all and did only a very few tests against it.

as for your line of play in the 2nd situation: you cannot possibly know which cards the opponent has in hand at that time. if he held a creatureheavy hand (without furter disruption) the early crusader with a jitte one turn later would be game. about not using the top in response you might be right. but what if you only have the jitte in hand after the resolved hymn? your next draw would be the top, probably that turn is lost by replaying the top and using it. there are so many ifs and whens in that situation (not knowing the next cards in your library, not knowing the opponents hand) even having the top in play being empty handed could have been ok. but overall i agree. using the top in response would be better.

I am not sure about both bigger threads we have in the deck. Mirran Crusader is so weak against red and i think he really dependant on the current meta. Hero of Bladehold is great, because he boosts our tokens, but he cannot save us, when we are in defense. What i am concerned about is the double-white in the mana cost. With these replaced, using wastelands would be possible, while still having a stable mana base. Percy is indeed a nice idea, i am thinking about it.

@Karang029:
As Lormador said, i wouldn't mix cabal therapy with hymns. cabal therapy works better with targeted discard. Having Dark confidant and Sword to plowshares (without using abrupt decay) not as a 4of is unconventional. Overall a nice list.

[Lormador]

I've been running 2 Hero of Bladehold since I first saw the decklist, and it took quite a few games before I even drew him. I was very excited to see him included. Opponents have always been surprised to see him. He has helped out sometimes: swinging for 7 on an empty board is no joke.

I've occasionally been very fond of him, but now I'm really starting to have my doubts. Goys swings for 6 'on an empty board' when he's powered up, for half the mana cost. Hero's tokens don't help on defense, not immediately. The fact is Hero is a slow threat: a really slow threat. His immediate impact is as a 3/4 with no evasion. I want something cheaper, and I want something that can swing the tide of battle when I wasn't already ahead.

I'd like to make a list of contenders in the 2-3 CMC range. I don't want to run more than 3 Mystics, DRS, or Tidehollow. Aven Mindcensor doesn't have the Red Zone impact I'm looking for. Let's just throw stuff out there.

Paladin en-Vec (I really did mean the old 2/2 First Strike Pro Black+Red...)
Mirran Crusader
Vampire Nighthawk
Gatekeeper of Malakir
Serra Avenger

...any other candidates? None of these have the raw damage potential Hero does... but Mirran can roll with the format's biggest beaters, Vampire Nighthawk kills anything and helps stabilize, Gatekeeper helps secure creature advantage for our team, and Serra Avenger is fairly efficient.

[fetzonk]

It's always possible to go green ourselves. Including Abrupt Decay and Tamogoyf on our own. If we don't have WW-manacost in our decklist we can afford a greener manabase.

[Lormador]

We could always run Goyf ourselves, I'm a little concerned that such a combination of Deathrite Shaman, Lingering Souls, and Tarmogoyf would give us too much reliance on the graveyard. I wouldn't feel comfortable with RIP in my board using Tarmogoyf. He's a great beater, I'm just not sure if this is really his rightful home.

At the moment, I'm thinking Gatekeeper of Malakir might be what I'm looking for. That's the sort of card that's useful when one is behind on the board.

[Wilkin]

I've been running 2 Hero of Bladehold since I first saw the decklist, and it took quite a few games before I even drew him. I was very excited to see him included. Opponents have always been surprised to see him. He has helped out sometimes: swinging for 7 on an empty board is no joke.

I've occasionally been very fond of him, but now I'm really starting to have my doubts. Goys swings for 6 'on an empty board' when he's powered up, for half the mana cost. Hero's tokens don't help on defense, not immediately. The fact is Hero is a slow threat: a really slow threat. His immediate impact is as a 3/4 with no evasion. I want something cheaper, and I want something that can swing the tide of battle when I wasn't already ahead.

I'd like to make a list of contenders in the 2-3 CMC range. I don't want to run more than 3 Mystics, DRS, or Tidehollow. Aven Mindcensor doesn't have the Red Zone impact I'm looking for. Let's just throw stuff out there.

Paladin en-Vec (I really did mean the old 2/2 First Strike Pro Black+Red...)
Mirran Crusader
Vampire Nighthawk
Gatekeeper of Malakir
Serra Avenger

...any other candidates? None of these have the raw damage potential Hero does... but Mirran can roll with the format's biggest beaters, Vampire Nighthawk kills anything and helps stabilize, Gatekeeper helps secure creature advantage for our team, and Serra Avenger is fairly efficient.

I would say Mirran Crusader. He hits for the most out of what you mentioned and protection from black and green is nice. lol, too bad it didn't include pro red, the ultimate anti-Jund card. Not a huge fan of Avenger unless it's in a Vial deck. You could always play Junk to have access to Goyf and Decay. However, since Deathrite Shaman is everywhere, I wouldn`t run Knight of the Reliquary right now.

I saw the Jund Primer. :) I know the OP author, in fact we play against each other quite often. I still get a kick out of him fearing Hero since I'm the only guy in our area that plays it and therefore don't see the need to be worried about it. He used to run aggro loam and has now moved to Jund. I've only faced Jund twice, both him. 1-1, both matches went to 3. I would say the Jund matchup is 50-50. Whoever can gain the quick advantage wins, whether it`s Liliana or Bob. Sideboard can make a huge difference....lol, he had Obstinate Baloth and I had Wilt-Leaf Liege. Aside from say Relic of Progenitus (deals with Grim Lavamancer, Goyf, Shaman) or Wilt-Leaf Liege, I`m not sure what you can bring in specifically against Jund that can really hose them. I guess that`s what makes the deck so great in Modern.

[Lormador]

I like the idea of another pair of Crusaders... at first en-Vec honestly tempted me, despite his unimpressive damage and inability to stand up to the Goyf beaters. Two more Crusaders, that's pretty nice, and since Jund has relatively few ways of dealing with it (Bolt, Liliana, Grim Lavamancer) we stand a better chance of overwhelming their answers. The last thing they want to see is another Mirran Crusaderafter they bolt the first one. It's a MD change, too, and the effect of increasing G1 % in such a tense matchup is very welcome to me.

...

Edit: Mirran Crusader testing session 1 (with the Crusader and another Mystic substituted for the Hero of Bladehold slots) has been promising. Although I was only able to test today against a Goblins deck, ...and this may well skew the results due to the extraordinary degree to which Jitte. Besides it's a positive matchup if we can avoid a surprise blowout by Pyrokinesis that leads to a Lackey / Piledriver connection.

That said, Mirran Crusader's ability to turn 2 Jitte counters and clear path through the Red Zone into 16 damage was extraordinary. He simply must be blocked or removed, that much damage (with another 2 counters ready for the next turn) is more than double what Hero was providing.

I'm sure he'd be nearly as impressive with a Batterskull.

[raikenxy]

hey everyone. I've been working on putting this deck together for some time and i've finally got all the pieces together. the current list im running is

creatures

4 dark confidant
4 stoneforge mystic
2 tidehollow sculler
3 mirran crusader
4 deathrite shaman

sorceries/instants/enchantments

4 swords to plowshares
2 oblivion rings
1 vindicate
4 inquisition of kozileck
3 cabal therapy
3 lingering souls

artifacts

1 batterskull
1 jitte
1 sword of light and shadow

planeswalker

3 Liliana of the Veil

Lands

3 wasteland
4 scrubland
1 fetid heath
2 plains
2 swamps
4 marsh flats
3 verdant catacombs
1 bayou

currently the sideboard is under construction but wanted to get some general feedback on the proposed list. I've been tempted to make it more creature heavy by adding aether vials , more scullers, and mom's but idk, i feel like this list is pretty solid, it's performed well i testing for me at least

[Valech]

I really like that list but I´d tweak some minor slots a bit.
First of all, I would add a fourth Wasteland and a fourth Lingering Souls. Both of them made it easy for me too often to cut them even slightly. Then I´d have a look at your Manabase. I would go for a Shockland instead of Fetid Heath. If your T1-dual gets wasted in T2 you´re stuck on a colorless mana producing land. I guess a Filtirland like Heath provides great utility for the WW or BB spells, but I made some bad experiences with that. Furthermore I´d splitt IoK with Thoughtseize. At least 1:3. I guess your SoLaS is a Metagame decision.

If you want to add Vials, you have to be aware, that your deck will turn into something completly diffrent. Even thou you are playing right now a lot of beaters, vialbuilds will feel even more aggrolike. You will lose a lot of Deadguy´s controlly abilities. If that is more your style go for it! I´d suggest some Phyrexian Revokers and perhaps one or two Jötun Grunts as cheap beaters.

[Sughayyer]

I may be wrong, but I think if you go the path of vial, you can benefit more at a death and taxes-like build... Like serra avenger, revoker, and since most creatures are cmc 2, you can also add a mana denial pckage (rishadan port, thalia). However this seems counter-productive with the possibilities that black can give you (like, discard spells for example).
I like tokens in the bw list, cards lik souls, blossom and bob are still pure card advantages - or must-answer cards. This coupled with stoneforge and liliana can give you total control of the board.

[Wilkin]

Raikenxy.

My only suggestions really are to make it 4 wastelands and perhaps change the sword to Fire and Ice. Wastelands are so good, sometimes even one wasteland can mana screw an opponent. I used to run Sword of Light and Shadow but I found that I couldn't always maximize if it connected. gaining 3 life is nice but I wouldn't always have a guy to bring back....whereas drawing an extra card is obviously great and you will always be able to shock something. And right now, in most metas there are plenty of weenie dudes that die to a shock.

And even if there's not, shocking your opponent is not a bad thing. Always felt SOFI affected the board and game state better than Light and Shadow.

[Rizso]

Meekstone + Blind Obeidience does looks really solid tbh.

[Valech]

Meekstone + Blind Obeidience does looks really solid tbh.

Thou I always tried to find a viable way to tinker around with extort, I doubt that the benefits of those two cards would be overwhelming. How many decks can you name, that would be heavily shut down by that cardcombo? Greenbased aggrodecks with Goyf and Mongoose? They´d suffer from that, but I´d rather play Perish. Merfolk? Didnt play against Merfolk for ages. Against Show and Tellish decks I play Duress, O-Rings and Needles Sideboard, which provide great utility on their own. I simply neither see Meekstone´s nor Blind Obedience`s place in either my sideboard or especially in my main 60.

But feel encouraged to go further into detail. Perhaps I have forgotten something.

[JanoschEausH]

What do you guys think about High Priest of Penance as a way to deal with the Jund-Menace? They have no way to deal with him without investing 2 cards to kill 1. Unless they shock him on an empty board. Since Lingering Souls is pretty bad right now, maybe this guy deserves some tryouts for that slot.

[Barbed Blightning]

What do you guys think about High Priest of Penance as a way to deal with the Jund-Menace? They have no way to deal with him without investing 2 cards to kill 1. Unless they shock him on an empty board. Since Lingering Souls is pretty bad right now, maybe this guy deserves some tryouts for that slot.

... Abrupt Decay?

[Sughayyer]

Please explain why lingering souls is bad.
It nullifies liliana's 2 first abilities, gives a hard time to most jace-decks, and even jund has trouble with it.

[igri_is_a_bk]

High Priest is just a wall that will one for one them unless they run an x/1 creature into him. It's not very good. And please don't say "it's good with Jitte".

Frankly, why do we need a sideboard aimed at Jund? Think about it. We already have sideboard cards that are applicable to the match up. Plus, it's mostly a mirror, except we have the better StP where they have Bolt. And their Goyfs and BBEs are not great against Souls.

SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [TE] Perish
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [ARB] Zealous Persecution
SB: 1 [MBS] Sword of Feast and Famine
SB: 1 [ZEN] Luminarch Ascension
SB: 2 [SOM] Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [ALA] Tidehollow Sculler

This is my sideboard right now, and I didn't consider Jund at all while building it. However, there are some obviously good cards against them: Sword of FF, Perish, and Canonist.

[JanoschEausH]

In my opinion, Lingering Souls is just a sorceryspeed Midnight Haunting against Deathrite Shaman. During my last two tournaments i found Lingering Souls to be the most mediocre card in my 75. This deck has no way to deal with Punishing Fire, besides boarding Rest in Peace, which they can always destroy with Decay... I see now why the Hight Priest isn't such a good idea against Decay...But nevertheless i will test him.

[Sughayyer]

In my opinion, Lingering Souls is just a sorceryspeed Midnight Haunting against Deathrite Shaman. During my last two tournaments i found Lingering Souls to be the most mediocre card in my 75. This deck has no way to deal with Punishing Fire, besides boarding Rest in Peace, which they can always destroy with Decay... I see now why the Hight Priest isn't such a good idea against Decay...But nevertheless i will test him.

[evilGod]

Jund is a good matchup for us. Really the only thing they have that gives them a chance is PFire, and if you really fear it that much save your Wastelands for Grove and run some 'yard hate, it's good against goyf and Deathrite anyway.

Outside of a bad hand, as long as you play your game you'll outpace them in cards with Misty coming down much earlier than Bloodbraid, and evasive guys with equipment being fantastic as always. They only have 4 Abrupt Decay, if they do have that game where they draw everything they need then they got lucky. It happens, this is Legacy.

[Rizso]

Pretty much the only card in jund thats a large problem is the bloodbraid elf and the punishing fire combo.

All cards that are strong against bloodbraid elf but discard Abrubt Decay clears. But for the punishing Fire combo, Vindicate gets alot better again, with wastelands there is now up to 8 ways to take out the groves.

I have been thinking of increasing the amount of lands in the deck and start play some more 3+ dropps. Some cards im looking at is blade splicer, Restoration angel as well as Obzedat with Shizo, Death's Storehouse.

The format has been slowed down and the one with the biggest unawnsered threat wins.

[Valech]

I never had huge problems while dealing with jund. Even a lost g1 turned into an easy g2 after boarding in Rest in Peace and Perish.

I do agree with Vindicate getting stronger again, which is why I swapped my two Heroes of Bladeholde out for them. Not sure if I want to/can fit in more. Perhaps I´ll lower Lingering Souls to 3 and add a third Vindicate.

I do not agree with the format having become slower.For example, even though his devastating potential Hero felt a bit clumsy. Not to speak of Obzedat, which does cost even more. Blade Splicer could fit in fine, but I can´t see Resoration Angel´s potential. Just a 3/4 flying with flash? Or do you have something special in mind, regarding her triggered ability?

Of course the biggest unanswered threat wins. But that´s self-explanatory.

[evilGod]

I'm still running BW, and I've been happy with 2 Vindicate main. Presto Angel is interesting for evasion, flash, and possibly saving a Bob from removal or re-triggering Misty, but she seems clunky with the amount of times you'd have to choose between her and losing a spirit or forcing an equipped creature to drop it's Jitte. Worse case is having to exile your own germ.

If you want to go over the top, Hero or Elspeth have my votes. Anything else just seems like it would get awkward too easily.

[Kich867]

I never had huge problems while dealing with jund. Even a lost g1 turned into an easy g2 after boarding in Rest in Peace and Perish.

I do agree with Vindicate getting stronger again, which is why I swapped my two Heroes of Bladeholde out for them. Not sure if I want to/can fit in more. Perhaps I´ll lower Lingering Souls to 3 and add a third Vindicate.

I do not agree with the format having become slower.For example, even though his devastating potential Hero felt a bit clumsy. Not to speak of Obzedat, which does cost even more. Blade Splicer could fit in fine, but I can´t see Resoration Angel´s potential. Just a 3/4 flying with flash? Or do you have something special in mind, regarding her triggered ability?

Of course the biggest unanswered threat wins. But that´s self-explanatory.

You sort of answered your own question there: "Blade Splicer could fit in fine" + "do you have something special in mind, regarding [Restoration Angel]'s triggered ability?"

In standard, the UW decks were abusing the hell out of Blade Splicer and Resto Angel. You apply pressure with a 3/3 first strike, and when they attempt to remove the splicer, you flash in resto angel, save it, and now have 10 power on the board, 3 of which flies, 6 of which has first strike.

[Valech]

You sort of answered your own question there: "Blade Splicer could fit in fine" + "do you have something special in mind, regarding [Restoration Angel]'s triggered ability?"

In standard, the UW decks were abusing the hell out of Blade Splicer and Resto Angel. You apply pressure with a 3/3 first strike, and when they attempt to remove the splicer, you flash in resto angel, save it, and now have 10 power on the board, 3 of which flies, 6 of which has first strike.

Uh, that´s neat indeed. How many of each did you run in Standard?

[Sughayyer]

I supposdly post a reply today earlier, but my stupid phone browser cut half of the text leaving only the quote. I'll post again when I get home, though most of what I was going to say was already said.

[Rizso]

Uh, that´s neat indeed. How many of each did you run in Standard?

In standard i ran 4 of each. The power it gave with t1 mana dork t2 splicer and t3 restoration angel.

The format is slower but thats cos the amount of removal in decks has increased alot. Decks used to run about 4 removal in their deck, pretty much only bolts and swords. The amount of removal has slowed down the format.

[nedleeds]

she seems clunky with the amount of times you'd have to choose between her and losing a spirit or forcing an equipped creature to drop it's jitte. Worse case is having to exile your own germ.

may.

[evilGod]

That's what I get for thinking of it like Flickerwisp.

I still feel of you want to flash guys in, UW(b) with Clique is probably where you want to be. Blinking Splicers and stuff sounds cool, but leaving up 4 mana isn't something I usually find myself doing.

[igri_is_a_bk]

A card that is going back in my sideboard is Faerie Macabre. Maybe as many as four. I have a feeling that Tinfins is going to rise in popularity in the upcoming weeks.

[Wilkin]

A card that is going back in my sideboard is Faerie Macabre. Maybe as many as four. I have a feeling that Tinfins is going to rise in popularity in the upcoming weeks.

It could be. I have that deck built and it's fairly consistent. In testing I usually win turn 1-3. I would diversify the hate a little bit as Tinfins does play Cabal Therapy. So maybe run a few Surgical Extractions....I found that to be the most annoying card to deal with so far in testing Tinfins.

As far as the Jund matchup goes, in reply to another poster....I usually side in some mass GY hate like Rest in Peace and Relic of Progenitus and then mass removal like EE. I find RIP and Relic to be really good vs Jund as it effects Lavamancer, Goyf, Ancient Grudge flashback, and Deathrite shaman. Even though I have a winning record vs Jund, I do find it to be a tough matchup and would say Jund would be favored. Also in terms of Deathrite Shaman and Lingering Soul interaction.....if you have 5 mana you can play and flashback the Souls as you have Priority. Not a great plan but it's there.

Oh, I recently took out all the Bitterblossoms and haven't looked back. I do miss it but.....
1. I have died to bitterblossom quite a few times. WAY more than Bob. I think in tournament play I have lost to Bob only 3 times. Bitterblossom it's closer to 10.
2. I won't miss making Goyf +2/+2 bigger. lol.

[Sughayyer]

@wilkin
can you post your list, or link us to it?
Thanks!

[Wilkin]

Went 3-2 drop at Tournament for a Lotus. 72 people I believe...7 rounds. There was a TON of Sneak and Show...so my sideboard was a good call.....although i didn't face any of those decks.

Decklist....
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Hero of Bladehold
2 Shriekmaw
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Lingering Souls
2 Chrome Mox
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
4 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Caves of Koilos
1 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
3 Swamp
1 Plains

3 Surgical Extraction
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Rest in Peace
2 Humility
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Thoughtseize
1 Zealous Persecution
2 Engineered Explosives

Match 1. Christopher with RUG durdle control. lol. Last time I played him he was Epser Blade. Not so fortunate this time.
This deck has Punishing Fire, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Academy Ruins, Life from the Loam and Engineered Explosives. Lost 2-0
I did have a good start game 1.....if he was Canadian Threshold. lol. Turn 1 Hymn to Tourach via Chrome Mox. Turn 2 Stoneforge Mystic. Turn 3 Liliana of the Veil (Mystic was killed).
Sided in Rest in Peace, Relic of Progenitus and an Extraction. Didn't matter as his deck has inevitability. LOL, my copious amount of GY isn't enough.

Match 2. VS Affinity. Won 2-1. Aggro decks tend to give me problems. Game 1 he pukes out his entire hand. Boo urns. Sided in an Edict, Persecution and both explosives...taking out the Shriekmaws and 2 Vindicates. His start isn't as fast as he's stuck on one Springleaf Drum and one Ancient Tomb. Game Changed in game 2 was he had a Pithing Needle on Mystic. So I blow up the explosives at 1, taking out the Drum and Needle.....using Mystic to bring in Batterskull and then wasting his only land. Game 3 he was mana flooded. He later tells me he sided out Thoughcast against me for Whipflare. Whipflare is an awesome card but I can't see how you would side out Card Advantage like Thoughtcast.

Match 3. vs Goblins. Steve Tomik. Won 2-1. A bad matchup as I haven't used Engineered Plague in a while. Game 1.....Double Lackey and Vial. Game 2. Sided in the Explosives, Persecution, Revoker and both humility. Batterskull gets there. Game 3. I was down to 2 life for the longest time....a few timely Thoughtseizes were huge....He had a Vial out but I had Revoker naming Vial...So twice he would Matron for a Ringleader (not enough mana to cast both) and then I would thoughtseize it away. Eventually I was able to bring in Batterskull and Persecution was huge....he had a Lackey, Matron and Ringleader out...I had Batterskull with Germ, Stoneforge and Revoker. Zealous Persecution then did a pretty big swing. Close game as I was at 1 life....a Siege gang Commander or Tuktuk Scrapper and I'm done.

Match 4. BUG Control. Lost 2-0. LOL, turns out Beating Liliana and Jace at the same time is impossible. Put in another Thoughtseize and a Revoker but it didn't help....

Match 5. Affinity. Won 2-1. Again. Ugh. Turn 1 he pukes his hand out. I only play a swamp and then strategically scoop. Same sideboard as the other affinity. Batterskull and Jitte go there game 2. Game 3 was a blowout for me...at the end it was Batterskull, Jitte, SOFI, Mystic, Bob, 2 Lingering Soul tokens and then I played Hero to seal the deal. Or Overkill, whatever works. Persecution was big in game 2 killing a Signal Pest and Memnite. He later mentions he had a Jitte in sideboard but didn't put it in against me.....


I drop since I didn't have a chance at top 8 and more importantly played in the Legacy Side event playing Tin Fins. Finished 2nd (9 people) and it was fun being able to kill someone turn 1 which I did twice. I also beat Jund with an active Shaman and Nihil Spellbomb by playing Show and tell.

Observations.
-Zealous Persecution is niche (ie. wouldn't side it in against a lot of opponents) but against the opponents you need it against it can be a huge swing for only 2 mana.
-Phyrexian Revoker was good....Shutting down Cranial Plating or especially Aether Vial. I realize he's uber Fragile, especially in comparison to Pithing Needle but I find Needle to be just as vulnerable in games 2 and 3 since the opponent knows we play (assuming I don't snap scoop lol) lots of juicy equipment. Plus being a bear is nice as it's a beater and can pick up a sword.
-Explosives was alright....2 for 1'ed Affinity a couple of times. And slowed down Goblins a bit.
-I still like Chrome Mox. Was able to turn 1 Hymn to Tourach twice.
-Shriekmaw is usually good for me.....today was bad as only Goblin matchup was relevant.
-Only saw Hero of Bladehold in my hand twice today. Which sucks since she usually does end the game when I cast her.
-Punishing Fire is uber against us. LOL, once upon a time I played Phyrexian Obliterator when Punishing Fire was everywhere. Against white decks he sucked, against red decks he was boss. Hehe, they need to make a better Crimson Acolyte or Absolute Law.

May take out Thalia for Another Revoker. I find Thalia can hurt me just as much....even in matchups against Storm sometimes. Revoker, while fragile can at least name something in most peoples decks....from Cranial Plating to Jace to Sneak Attack. Why couldn't they make the Revoker a 2/2.

[Kring]

Punishing fire combo is not as cracked up against us. They have to waste 4 mana to kill 2 lingering souls tokens? Excuse me, but thats terrible.

If you are running a heavy tokens based BW build, you should win vs jund...

[JanoschEausH]

I made 12th out of 65 people in Hannover (Germany) with DeadGuy. Went 4-1-2.

Round 1: vs. GBw Nic Fit; 2-1 win
G1: I have removal for his creatures. Veteran Explorer actually helps me playing my own threats.
G2: Deed. More Deed. He eventually finishes with Baneslayer Angel.
G3: I recover from several Deeds because Lingering Souls is awesome. We go into turns. I deal him exactly 16 damage in the 5th and last extra turn of the game, because of tokens equipped with Jitte and Sword. (He was at 16 obviously).

Round 2: vs. Death n' Taxes; 1-1-1 draw

Friend of mine. We I.D. and played for fun. I would have won that match.

Round 3: vs. Punishing Jund; 2-1 win
G1: Masses of Spirit tokens overwhelm him.
G2: Jund does what Junf does. Playing threat after threat, while cascading into other threats, while removing your permanents.
G3: I am able to discard most of his important cards. He gets mana flooded. Bob stays on the field for several turns = win.

Round 4: vs. RUG Delver; 2-0 win
G1: I start with discarding his Mongoose after he has taken two mulligans. Bobs and Stoneforge Mystics get there. Winning on 5 cards with RUG seems not to be easy.
G2: I can handle his creatures with Swords and Spirit tokens. Hero of BLadehold represents a big clock, although he stifles the soldier trigger twice. He cant keep up with my token army and i win.

Round 5: vs. LED-Dredge; 2-1 win
G1: I cannot stop Zombie and Ichorid beats.
G2: Surgical Extraction on his Bridges followed by Rest in Peace is crippling him. Jitte gets equipped and connects. Win.
G3: Most epic match of the day. I start with discarding his Bridges and exiling all of them with Extraction. He dredges quite well and threatens to overwhelm me with Ichorid and Ashen Ghouls. I am able to stabilize with one Deathrite Shaman and one Mother of Runes on 1 life without a green mana source, but with an equipped Jitte. He destroys the Jitte with Nature's Claim, which nets me 4 life. I am able to fetch on a green source now and manage to survive, while slowly exiling his Ichorids and Ashen Ghouls with my DRS. Shortly before turns, he dies because his library is empty.

At this point i know that top 8 is in reach, and i am 3rd or 4th in standings.

Round 6: vs. Sneak Show; 0-2 lose
G1: Turn two Emrakul yada yada.
G2: My board is not well prepared for this matchup. I cannot find any discard spells while mulliganing deep. Sneak Attack finishes me off.

This match was over after 10-15 minutes. :(

Round 7: vs. Cabal ANT; 1-1-1 draw
G1: I know what he is playing, because he played right next to me in Round 6. I try to mulligan on discard spells, but can't find any. He goes off.
G2: Turn 1 Mother of Runes. Turn two Ethersworn Canonist.
G3: I am able to discard a lot of his important spells. Sadly, he discards my Rest in Peace, so his Cabal Rituals stay active. He keeps pondering over his decisions and time goes by without him doing anything relevant. I find an Ethersworn Canonist and stall him until extra turns begin. He can bounce my Canonist EOT on Extra Turn 4, but realizes, that he needs one more turn to go off safely. In the end he uses Burning Wish to get a Gitaxian Probe to find one out of two relevant cards on top of his deck (Ill Gotten Gains, or Past in Flames). He draws a mana source and we shake hands.

I am happy, because i am sure that i would have lost G3 here, if my opponent could get another turn.

In the end, i finished at 12th place and win 2 Green Sun's Zenith.

Decklist

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Mother of Runes
2 Hero of Bladehold
2 Tidehollow Skuller
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant

4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Isolated Chapel
4 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Scrubland
1 Savannah
4 Plains
4 Swamps

2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Lingering Souls
2 Vindicate

Sideboard
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Rest in Peace
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Duress
2 Perish

Note: Normally i would have played without Isolated Chapel and with Wastelands. But i lend them to my friend who played Death n' Taxes.

[feline]

LCL 2013 - Marzo
Number of Players : 106
Date: March/16th/2013
~7th place - Pedro Posada
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=10423&iddeck=76022
Creatures [12]
3 Dark Confidant
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
Instants [7]
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
Sorceries [15]
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Lingering Souls
3 Thoughtseize
3 Vindicate
Planeswalkers [3]
3 Liliana of the Veil
Artifacts [2]
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Lands [21]
1 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland
Sideboard [15]
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Choke
3 Perish
1 Pithing Needle
4 Rest in Peace
2 Zealous Persecution

As you can see though, this version has a splash of green in it for Abrupt Decay & Deathrite Shaman, as well as sideboard Choke, but the deck is still focused in heavy disruption that is this type of strategy. In either case, it was a recent placing I came across and thought I'd share it. ^.^

[Arsenal]

There's almost nothing seperating Deadguy Ale decks that splash green for Abrupt Decay, full usage from DRS, and green SB cards and Junk decks. Deadguy Ale is literally 4 Goyfs away from just being a Junk deck. What are Deadguy players' thought on that?

[igri_is_a_bk]

There's almost nothing seperating Deadguy Ale decks that splash green for Abrupt Decay, full usage from DRS, and green SB cards and Junk decks. Deadguy Ale is literally 4 Goyfs away from just being a Junk deck. What are Deadguy players' thought on that?

This isn't true. Green gives you Goyf, Knight, Decay, GSZ and Library. Those are all staples of Junk, so you'd be changing about 25% of the deck, excluding lands.

I think if you're going to play Deadguy, you can play a single Bayou for DRS, but that's the extent you should go into the green splash. Otherwise, you should do as you're suggesting and play Junk.

[Arsenal]

This is my Junk build:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay

1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Lingering Souls
4 Thoughtseize

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

1 Sylvan Library

3 Liliana of the Veil

1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Scrubland
4 Bayou
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Now, comparing what I've been running for Junk for the past month (dominating other grindy decks with ease), there's almost no difference between my Junk list and Deadguy Ale lists than 4 Goyf.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Your Junk list is very different from the others. Most of those lists have at most 2 SFM because of GSZ. In your singular case, yes, it's pretty much Deadguy with Goyf and Decay.

[Sughayyer]

This is my Junk build:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay

1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Lingering Souls
4 Thoughtseize

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

1 Sylvan Library

3 Liliana of the Veil

1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Scrubland
4 Bayou
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Now, comparing what I've been running for Junk for the past month (dominating other grindy decks with ease), there's almost no difference between my Junk list and Deadguy Ale lists than 4 Goyf.

For me it's a real dilemma. Goyf is fantastic, so is bitterblossom. Each one for it's reasons.

[Kayradis]

Played Deadguy Ale for a while last winter. I love the list. But I'm not convinced with the current list....I still believe it could be a Tier 1 deck.

Im not 100% sure about the green splash. Yes, it does open the deck to amazing utility cards (DRS and Decay, and Im not even talking about library, goyfs and such) but I always saw my MO as going turn 1 hymn or T1 thoughseize.

Correct me if im wrong.

[Arsenal]

When I look at Junk and Deadguy, one of the main strengths Deadguy has over Junk is the ability to run a ton of basics; this makes Deadguy more consistent than Junk due to not having to care about your Jund opponent opening with 2x Wasteland. Everything else though, Junk can do as well as Deadguy (Junk can run a similar disruption suite, similar creature suite, etc), and sometimes do it better due to having access to green (Abrupt Decay/Maelstrom Pulse > Vindicate, sideboard becomes stronger with green cards like Gaddock Teeg, Choke, etc). Once people start "splashing" green, they cut down on their basic land count, which takes away one of the advantages of playing Deadguy over Junk.

So I ask this: assuming access to cards isn't the issue, why would you run a substantial amount of green mana (3x Bayou in that list feline posted) and not run Goyf? I can't think of any matchup where I'm disappointed to see 2x Goyf in my opener; it's a clock versus combo, a clock versus control, can help stabilize versus other Goyf decks, and it trumps other creature decks that don't run Goyf.

[Oiolosse]

Arsenal: I think some people may play Deadguy because they don't own Goyfs for Junk. That's me at least. I know that there are Junk lists out there that don't run him, but I think that is overall wrong. I think that Deadguy supports SFM much better than Junk, esp the variants running Bitterblossom and Souls. All those fliers are awesome with SFM. I have recently made a splash for DRS but that's it. As much as I like Abrupt Decay I feel that I should just play GSZ, Knight and the other good green cards...so, Junk.

[Arsenal]

Right, but card availability aside, is there a competitive reason to run Deadguy over Junk if Deadguy is going to start splashing for green (like the list feline posted)? As a Junk player, I say "no", but I'm interested in hearing if Deadguy players have a different take.

[cartothemax]

Right, but card availability aside, is there a competitive reason to run Deadguy over Junk if Deadguy is going to start splashing for green (like the list feline posted)? As a Junk player, I say "no", but I'm interested in hearing if Deadguy players have a different take.

I will weigh in with my two cents on this.

In August I began playing a stock list of Deadguy Ale with Vindicate, Tidehollow Sculler, and a couple Chrome Mox. When Return to Ravinca was released I made the changes that are reflected in the majority of lists here now. Vindicates turned into Abrupt Decay, Tidehollow got diminished to make room for Deathrite (DRS also replaced Mox sort of.) Bayous were brought in. I coined it as "Junk Blade" and the list looked like this.

x4 Dark Confidant
x4 Stoneforge Mystic
x4 Deathrite Shaman
x2 Tidehollow Sculler

x2 Sensi's Divining Top
x2 Thoughtseize
x2 Inquisition of Kozilek
x2 Cabal Therapy
x4 Swords to Plowshares
x4 Abrupt Decay
x3 Liliana of the Veil
x3 Lingering Souls
x2 Jitte
x1 Batterskull

x4 Verdant Catacombs
x4 Marsh Flats
x2 Bayou
x4 Scrubland
x4 Wasteland
x2 Swamp
x1 Plains

Now I've been playing this list for a couple months is all, but I did feel it was lacking. I found myself looking for solutions to the problems this deck has. I would ask questions like... what would be a pre-board graveyard answer or had how could I combat opposing beefy creatures. At first I considered more discard, but his ended up not being enough. The window for when discard is REALLY potent is pretty small it needs to get in early and fast. Having a permanent answer is just more practical. Clearly for this list above simply dropping a few cards and you can add Tarmogoyf easily and, in my opinion, it would make the deck stronger in a lot of match-ups and cement others.

In the end though the lines are blurring between the two archetypes. It's just different flavors that give here and take there. Some roll with Hymn to focus on resource denial, others focus on ground beaters, and some the equip route. People have playing preferences and GWB has such great card selection to support many styles.

Having not played a list with Goyf my opinion matters little. My gut tells me it's better though. It lets the deck turn from Control to Aggro easily and that's something that only SFM-> Batterskull could previously accomplish or I guess Lingering Souls could do.

[Arsenal]

Although 1WW, I've always viewed Mirran Crusader as Deadguy Ale's "Goyf". As in, he swings in for 4 points by himself (gets even more bonkers once you factor in equipment) and he can serve as a Goyf-wall if you need to play defense. Obviously, he's not as good as Goyf is (3cc vs 2cc, dies to Lightning Bolt for free, etc), but if you're going to be sticking with straight BW colors, then why aren't more people running this guy?

[cartothemax]

I would say the short and sweet answer is he dies to Bolt. Hero of the Bladehold was the other finisher that has been tried out with some success.

With Crusader though he really shines when he picks up equipment (dudes a beast with a SoFaI)

EDIT: should add that double white can stress the manabase at times too.

[AryaStark]

BW Stoneblade is more resistant to wasteland and Price of Progress effects than Junk. I like being able to toss down a fair amount of land so I can do multiple things in one turn without worrying(or emptying hand before activate Lili). I also have a unnatural dislike for combo. In that case Sculler is better than Tarm (sometimes i run sinkholes/extra vindicates just to crush the hopes of spiral tide players :) ). And really I prefer targeted discard over too many deathrite. Deathrite is awesome, but really does zippo to TES, ANT, SI, sneak/show etc.

In order to be resistant to non-basic hate you have more swamps, which means no reliable mirran crusaders.

That is my basic answer to the two questions floating around here. Of course that is my opinion and I would never say that playing Junk is bad or worse than BW. There is a difference, though.

[Arsenal]

I get why people play the straight BW version, but my question was more for the Deadguy players that are splashing green (fairly heavily if the list feline posted is any indicator).

[Kich867]

I would say the short and sweet answer is he dies to Bolt. Hero of the Bladehold was the other finisher that has been tried out with some success.

With Crusader though he really shines when he picks up equipment (dudes a beast with a SoFaI)

EDIT: should add that double white can stress the manabase at times too.

Under what circumstance is it even possible for double white to stress the manabase in a two-color deck with duals of the only two colors that you run? I don't think I've ever heard of this, experienced this myself, or spoken to any individuals (including my roommate, who plays BW Deadguy Ale) who have had such issues.

Deadguy can fetch / play exclusively basics and be completely fine.

Mirran Crusader is also about 100 times better than Hero of Bladehold, who is extraordinarily slow. He's even a better lategame creature with a batterskull out or something, you plop bskull on him and are swinging with a 6/6 double strike, vigilant, lifelinking, pro black / green creature.

[razvan]

Mirran Crusader is also about 100 times better than Hero of Bladehold, who is extraordinarily slow. He's even a better lategame creature with a batterskull out or something, you plop bskull on him and are swinging with a 6/6 double strike, vigilant, lifelinking, pro black / green creature.
On an empty board, Mirran Crusaders comes down one turn earlier. So he will take 5 turns to kill someone. You need to find 4 more damage some place for him to take 4.

Hero of Bladehold takes 3, and it's much likelier he needs 2, since she does do 18 damage.

So empty board, Hero is faster, sometimes significantly so. She just comes out one turn later.

Now, the vulnerability. Neither gets hit by Abrupt Decay, a big plus for both. However, at least against Jund, Crusader dies to Bolt, dies to a single Punishing Fire, dies to Lavamancer... hell, it even dies to Fire/Ice and Forked Bolt from RUG.

Both creatures kill everything in RUG/Jund except goyf, which will kill Hero most often, but not Crusader.

The batterskull comment is a bit random. Yes, he's awesome with batterskull on, so would the Hero be.

I like both, but Crusader is not 100 times better, and I would maintain he is arguably less effective.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Mirran Crusader is also about 100 times better than Hero of Bladehold, who is extraordinarily slow. He's even a better lategame creature with a batterskull out or something, you plop bskull on him and are swinging with a 6/6 double strike, vigilant, lifelinking, pro black / green creature.

Mirran Crusader with a bskull attached is your argument for keeping him? Imagine Hero in the same situation. I'm 100% convinced you haven't tried it because you wouldn't be promoting Crusader if you had.

We really don't care about pro green with StP, Vindicate, and Lili in our starting 60. What Deadguy needs is a faster clock and Hero provides that on her own. Things get silly with Souls or Faeries already in play.

[BlackPurple]

Hello guys, I'm new on this site and this is my first comment. :cry:
( sorry for any mistakes , English isn't my first language.)

I'm playing Deadguy Ale for a while now, I love to play this deck, and recently I splash green to try the list with Deathrite and Abrupt D.
Deathrite is so multi-functional that it would be a shame to not take advantage of this creature. ( To win some life against Burn, to deal some crucial life, to make Snapcaster, tarmo, KoR weaker, to accelerate our game early on, or to remove some pieces against combo,..)
These changes make Deadguy Ale even more flexible.


The list:

1 Batterskull
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Dark confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay

3 Lingering Souls
3 Vindicate
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy

2 Bitterblossom

2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Swamp
2 Bayou
2 Plains

Sideboard

2 Perish
2 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Rest in piece
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Ensnaring Bridge ( in test )
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Serenity ( in test )
1 Engineered Plague



IMO, Crusader is not so good in this list,and I personaly think Hero is too slow, that why I prefer to play Elspeth ''random''.
I tried also Tidehollow Sculler, who I think is much less interesting without Vial.
I tried SoFi and I thought that it can be really good but too slow too. ( I always want Jitte or Batterskull )