[Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

[Kayradis]

IMO, Crusader is more a SB card. Seems like everybody is scared of bolt. He also dies to : StP, PtE, Punishing Fire and all the other option named above. The format was, is, and will be removal intensive. We are talking here about a format that let us play all the best cards ever printed.
Play around removals. We all did, and we all gonna do it again.

Let's simply say that if you can equip that bastard with SoFaI,BSkull or any other of the shiny swords, the clock get really fast for the opponent.

@BlackPurple
I do like your list. Really.

[Wilkin]

I've played Both Crusader and Hero and I like Hero a lot more, especially since I don't play Mother of Runes.

Hero is usually a turn 2 clock since Deadguy usually plays a ton of removal. 4 mana is a lot but she does ends games for me. Even if she gets to swing just once and dies, you still have 2 1/1 soldiers which is awesome. I've tried so many creatures as "finishers". Nyxathid. Phyrexian Obliterator. Mirran Crusader. I've found Hero of Bladehold to be the best of the bunch in black/white.

[Rizso]

There are quite a few cards i want to try out in the deck. Like Cursed Scroll, recurring nightmare, bladesplicer and restoration angel. And if dragons maze teysa is great the also shinzo land that gives legends fear.

[Tokugawa]

When I look at Junk and Deadguy, one of the main strengths Deadguy has over Junk is the ability to run a ton of basics; this makes Deadguy more consistent than Junk due to not having to care about your Jund opponent opening with 2x Wasteland. Everything else though, Junk can do as well as Deadguy (Junk can run a similar disruption suite, similar creature suite, etc), and sometimes do it better due to having access to green (Abrupt Decay/Maelstrom Pulse > Vindicate, sideboard becomes stronger with green cards like Gaddock Teeg, Choke, etc). Once people start "splashing" green, they cut down on their basic land count, which takes away one of the advantages of playing Deadguy over Junk.

So I ask this: assuming access to cards isn't the issue, why would you run a substantial amount of green mana (3x Bayou in that list feline posted) and not run Goyf? I can't think of any matchup where I'm disappointed to see 2x Goyf in my opener; it's a clock versus combo, a clock versus control, can help stabilize versus other Goyf decks, and it trumps other creature decks that don't run Goyf.
I agree. DGA is never in lack of 2-for-1 or many-for-1 spells(bob,souls,SFM,etc).

The main problem of our deck is how to deal high damage. Namely, the ability to stop goyf in combat without equipements.

Take goyf ourselves is one answer to opponent's goyfs(althrough maybe not a best). Personally, the only reason for me to not take 2 copies of goyf is the $130 price tag.

[Sughayyer]

I agree. DGA is never in lack of 2-for-1 or many-for-1 spells(bob,souls,SFM,etc).

The main problem of our deck is how to deal high damage. Namely, the ability to stop goyf in combat without equipements.

Take goyf ourselves is one answer to opponent's goyfs(althrough maybe not a best). Personally, the only reason for me to not take 2 copies of goyf is the $130 price tag.

Why does a deck that runs around 7 removal spells, does a lot of x for 1, and has creatures with evasion should be afraid of goyf? Plus we can use batterskull, however (I know I'm gonna be pounded now) sword of fire and ice is SO much better... killing critters, giving cards, etc... paired with the flying tokens it's simply fantastic.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Why does a deck that runs around 7 removal spells, does a lot of x for 1, and has creatures with evasion should be afraid of goyf?

This, but it's more like 10 removal spells.


Plus we can use batterskull, however (I know I'm gonna be pounded now) sword of fire and ice is SO much better... killing critters, giving cards, etc... paired with the flying tokens it's simply fantastic.

You're comparing the wrong equipment here. The correct comparison is Jitte vs. Sword of Fire and Ice.

[Zeph]

Hey everyone!

I've been following this thread for almost a year now, ever since I started playing Dead Guy and I finally decided to make an account so I can share my decklist (open to criticism/suggestions):

Lands:

3 Swamp
1 Plain
4 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Arid Mesa
1 Fetid Heath
4 Scrubland
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland

Creatures:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tidhollow Sculler
1 Hero of Bladehold

Planeswalkers:

4 Liliana of the Veil

Spells:

1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Lingering Souls
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vindicate

Equipment:

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

SB:

2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Bitterblossom
1 Humility
1 Engineered Plague
1 Rest in Peace
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Perish
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Surgical Extraction

Let me know what you guys think! Usually I playtest with my buddy that plays UWr stoneblade, but he's made the switch over to Miracles. In the UWr stoneblade, it was a pretty good match up and now it's more of a 50/50.

I've also playtested against Junk decks (and mirror), burn, merfolk, bombardment, SI, 12 Post. I really wish I could playtest against more combo decks like ANT, TES or Blecher, so if anyone has insight on those match ups that'd be great.

[Arsenal]

Why does a deck that runs around 7 removal spells, does a lot of x for 1, and has creatures with evasion should be afraid of goyf? Plus we can use batterskull, however (I know I'm gonna be pounded now) sword of fire and ice is SO much better... killing critters, giving cards, etc... paired with the flying tokens it's simply fantastic.

But my point is that everything Deadguy Ale does (2-for-1s, creature threats, discard, equipment, Souls, etc), Junk can do as well PLUS Junk has Goyf. So again, assuming that card availability/price isn't a factor, why do Green splashing Deadguy Ale players run Abrupt Decay, DRS, Green sideboard cards, but not Goyf?

[Zeph]

But my point is that everything Deadguy Ale does (2-for-1s, creature threats, discard, equipment, Souls, etc), Junk can do as well PLUS Junk has Goyf. So again, assuming that card availability/price isn't a factor, why do Green splashing Deadguy Ale players run Abrupt Decay, DRS, Green sideboard cards, but not Goyf?

From my understanding of the two decks, I think one of the biggest reasons why deadguy decks don't run goyf because it allows them to have a more consistant mana base.

I think it's just if goyfs were added into the deck along with the abrupt decays, then that would probably warrant a main deck forest.

Before rock decks were mostly with the GSZ package of creatures but now there's more of a shift towards LS + SFM. I think that was one of the main differences between the two decks but now it's more blurred.

[Arsenal]

From my understanding of the two decks, I think one of the biggest reasons why deadguy decks don't run goyf because it allows them to have a more consistant mana base.

I think it's just if goyfs were added into the deck along with the abrupt decays, then that would probably warrant a main deck forest.

Before rock decks were mostly with the GSZ package of creatures but now there's more of a shift towards LS + SFM. I think that was one of the main differences between the two decks but now it's more blurred.

I already acknowledged the advantage of BW Deadguy Ale having a more consistent manabase than Junk, but if players are going to go BWg Deadguy Ale, then that consistency is weakened due to the inclusion of Bayou (the list feline posted a page back only played 3x basics).

If you're going to forgo the one advantage you had (manabase) over your closest cousin (Junk), why not go all in? This is what I'm trying to understand from the BWg Deadguy Ale players; why not just play Junk?

[Zeph]

I already acknowledged the advantage of BW Deadguy Ale having a more consistent manabase than Junk, but if players are going to go BWg Deadguy Ale, then that consistency is weakened due to the inclusion of Bayou (the list feline posted a page back only played 3x basics).

If you're going to forgo the one advantage you had (manabase) over your closest cousin (Junk), why not go all in? This is what I'm trying to understand from the BWg Deadguy Ale players; why not just play Junk?

Then the only reason why people haven't made the transition over to just playing junk is because of the financial costs. I see no other reason why people don't just play junk over deadguy :P

Green historically has better SB cards than just BW, plus by having green deadguy players will have access to goyfs and libraries. I see no reason for anyone playing BWg to just not have a junk list. The only reason my list isn't playing goyfs is because I only included 1 bayou in my list, so it's an extremely light splash of green. :)

[Sughayyer]

I already acknowledged the advantage of BW Deadguy Ale having a more consistent manabase than Junk, but if players are going to go BWg Deadguy Ale, then that consistency is weakened due to the inclusion of Bayou (the list feline posted a page back only played 3x basics).

If you're going to forgo the one advantage you had (manabase) over your closest cousin (Junk), why not go all in? This is what I'm trying to understand from the BWg Deadguy Ale players; why not just play Junk?

Arsenal you are not wrong.

What I'm advocating is: don't run shaman at all on deadguy. The deck never needed it. Look at how many modifications you have to do in the deck to add shaman, and does deadguy REALLY need it?
Even in The Rock I'm considering cutting it (as I said on that thread).
The argument that "it's a good card" won't work, jace is a good card, and if you put it in deadguy it becames esper blade - you'll do a lot of changes not only to acommodade jace but also to really USE the added color to it's maximum potential.
Same goes for green, if you are adding it, throw in goyf, decay, all the good things, and make the splash really worthwhile. But deadguy strenght comes in that almost every card is worth at least 2 - or demands an immediate answer.

[Zeph]

Arsenal you are not wrong.

What I'm advocating is: don't run shaman at all on deadguy. The deck never needed it. Look at how many modifications you have to do in the deck to add shaman, and does deadguy REALLY need it?
Even in The Rock I'm considering cutting it (as I said on that thread).
The argument that "it's a good card" won't work, jace is a good card, and if you put it in deadguy it becames esper blade - you'll do a lot of changes not only to acommodade jace but also to really USE the added color to it's maximum potential.
Same goes for green, if you are adding it, throw in goyf, decay, all the good things, and make the splash really worthwhile. But deadguy strenght comes in that almost every card is worth at least 2 - or demands an immediate answer.

Without drs in a deadguy deck, would it be better just to play the vial version? Or would you still advocate playing with the same set of cards just - the drs?

I always thought that drs improved our matchups against reanimator, burn, and gave us reach in grindy match ups. And the amount invested in adding drs isn't too costly is it? I'd like to know your thoughts on this!

[Sughayyer]

Without drs in a deadguy deck, would it be better just to play the vial version? Or would you still advocate playing with the same set of cards just - the drs?

I always thought that drs improved our matchups against reanimator, burn, and gave us reach in grindy match ups. And the amount invested in adding drs isn't too costly is it? I'd like to know your thoughts on this!

Yes, deathrite gives deadguy an adge against decks like reanimator, lands and dredge. But don't we usually run 3-4 cards on the sideboard that improves this match already? Is it good to improve these matches and make the deck lose it's consistence and one of it's most appealing traits?
It's been a while since I played deadguy, but my list was the following:

3 inquisition of kozilek
3 cabal therapy
1 thoughtseize

4 swords to plowshares
3 oblivion rings (those were vindicates, and vindicates ARE better, but this was when S&T was a real plague in my meta)
3 zealous persecution (too many GW and lingering souls decks, it also made me win vs goblisn and elves... and they can make you kill your opponent pretty fast)

3 dark confidant
3 stoneforge mystic
3 bitterblossom
4 lingering souls

2 sensei's divining top
1 umezawa jitte
1 sword of fire and ice
1 batterskull

2 liliana of the veil
1 ajani goldmane

4 wasteland
4 verdant catacombs
4 marsh flats
3 scrublands
1 isolated chapel (I thought this was better than the shockland)
3 swamp
3 plains

sideboard:

2 enlightened tutor
1 conversion
1 grafdigger's cage
1 intangible virtue
1 diabolic edict
1 extirpate
2 kitchen finks
3 duress
2 surgical extraction
1 sword of feast and famine

A few times I removed 3 lands and threw in 3 chrome moxen, when I know there was going to be more combo decks.
Ajani may seem LOL but he's just fantastic - he helps you aggro-out your opponent while protecting you (and himself) with the +1/+1 counter and vigilance. gaining 2 life is cool as well, but most of the time the opponents folded when he landed.

Nowadays, zealous persecution isnt't THAT powerful anymore, so I'd advocate running hero of bladehold. It works wonders against jund, since they can't remove it (and a smart jund player will side-out liiana in this MU). Also, the sideboard is pretty outdated. And maybe get vindicates back since the ammount of S&T decks lessened a bit, and O-Ring can go to the sideboard.

Other insteresting card I'd like to play is tidehollow sculler, but I think I just use it wrong, 'cause the few times I tried it was underwhelming.


EDIT: the numbers on the discard spells were switched

[Zeph]

That looks looks pretty interesting, cause it's actually a BW list (no green, haha)

I'm interested to see how this deck would fair against fair decks like rock/junk/jund/stoneblade variants? What would you board in/out? Also, have you considered playing ensnaring bridge in the board since you have the e-tutors anyways.

I thought that tidehollow would be a subpar card but after testing it against some decks, I find it actually pretty useful. Worse case scenario, it's a bear that can hold equipment. Or it can be a follow up to t1 discard which is pretty devastating to the opponent. If your opponent wants that card back then theyre going to have to waste a removal spell on them, which is good because you want your sfm or bobs to sit on the table.

[Wilkin]

Yes, deathrite gives deadguy an adge against decks like reanimator, lands and dredge. But don't we usually run 3-4 cards on the sideboard that improves this match already? Is it good to improve these matches and make the deck lose it's consistence and one of it's most appealing traits?
It's been a while since I played deadguy, but my list was the following:

3 inquisition of kozilek
3 cabal therapy
1 thoughtseize

4 swords to plowshares
3 oblivion rings (those were vindicates, and vindicates ARE better, but this was when S&T was a real plague in my meta)
3 zealous persecution (too many GW and lingering souls decks, it also made me win vs goblisn and elves... and they can make you kill your opponent pretty fast)

3 dark confidant
3 stoneforge mystic
3 bitterblossom
4 lingering souls

2 sensei's divining top
1 umezawa jitte
1 sword of fire and ice
1 batterskull

2 liliana of the veil
1 ajani goldmane

4 wasteland
4 verdant catacombs
4 marsh flats
3 scrublands
1 isolated chapel (I thought this was better than the shockland)
3 swamp
3 plains

sideboard:

2 enlightened tutor
1 conversion
1 grafdigger's cage
1 intangible virtue
1 diabolic edict
1 extirpate
2 kitchen finks
3 duress
2 surgical extraction
1 sword of feast and famine

A few times I removed 3 lands and threw in 3 chrome moxen, when I know there was going to be more combo decks.
Ajani may seem LOL but he's just fantastic - he helps you aggro-out your opponent while protecting you (and himself) with the +1/+1 counter and vigilance. gaining 2 life is cool as well, but most of the time the opponents folded when he landed.

Nowadays, zealous persecution isnt't THAT powerful anymore, so I'd advocate running hero of bladehold. It works wonders against jund, since they can't remove it (and a smart jund player will side-out liiana in this MU). Also, the sideboard is pretty outdated. And maybe get vindicates back since the ammount of S&T decks lessened a bit, and O-Ring can go to the sideboard.

Other insteresting card I'd like to play is tidehollow sculler, but I think I just use it wrong, 'cause the few times I tried it was underwhelming.


EDIT: the numbers on the discard spells were switched

Ajani is interesting. At that point still partial to either Hero or Elspeth, Knight-Errant. But hey if it works....

I would say if you are in a heavy combo meta I would have less Inquisition's and more Thoughtseize and Therapy. Thoughtseize loses some life but your Bobs aren't likely to hurt since you play 2 tops and you have a Jitte, Batterskull and Ajani to gain life back.

Why no Karakas in the 75? I'd find a spot for at least one, especially in a meta of show and tell. I play one main and one in board now and I love it against show and tell (I do play other cards that are good against it in my 75...lol, not relying totally on 2 Karakas). Heck I even put in the extra Karakas against mana denial decks.

What decks is Conversion for? Jund? Burn? Lol, it's good game if you can play that against burn unless they have their Barbarian Ring out or if they have board position.

Intangible Virtue is a good card since you are very token heavy but..... in your board? What matchups do you side it in against? The token mirror? I'd rather have Virtue be something that could help you in a bad matchup. Since you play Enlightened Tutor board, I'd suggest Phyrexian Revoker or Pithing Needle. So many things you can name that can help you out.....Jace, Sneak Attack, Goblin Charbelcher, Aether Vial etc. etc.
I'd also suggest Engineered Explosives, but you only play 2 colours, a lot of deadguy decks now splash green because of Deathrite Shaman.

[Sughayyer]

Ajani is interesting. At that point still partial to either Hero or Elspeth, Knight-Errant. But hey if it works....

I would say if you are in a heavy combo meta I would have less Inquisition's and more Thoughtseize and Therapy. Thoughtseize loses some life but your Bobs aren't likely to hurt since you play 2 tops and you have a Jitte, Batterskull and Ajani to gain life back.

Why no Karakas in the 75? I'd find a spot for at least one, especially in a meta of show and tell. I play one main and one in board now and I love it against show and tell (I do play other cards that are good against it in my 75...lol, not relying totally on 2 Karakas). Heck I even put in the extra Karakas against mana denial decks.

What decks is Conversion for? Jund? Burn? Lol, it's good game if you can play that against burn unless they have their Barbarian Ring out or if they have board position.

Intangible Virtue is a good card since you are very token heavy but..... in your board? What matchups do you side it in against? The token mirror? I'd rather have Virtue be something that could help you in a bad matchup. Since you play Enlightened Tutor board, I'd suggest Phyrexian Revoker or Pithing Needle. So many things you can name that can help you out.....Jace, Sneak Attack, Goblin Charbelcher, Aether Vial etc. etc.
I'd also suggest Engineered Explosives, but you only play 2 colours, a lot of deadguy decks now splash green because of Deathrite Shaman.

that list is a bit outdated.
Yes, conversion was for burn. I think it would be funny against jund too :D intangible virtue was to fight dread of night, night of soul's betrayal and engineered plague (e.plague for faeries hurts. A lot.)

[dballard]

If I were a junk player that uses Lingering Souls, Stoneforge and equips (which I am not as I play a GSZ package) I'd probably go straight dead guy. The addition of Bitterblossom and being able to totally abuse Cabal Therapy would be hard to resist, plus the more reliable mana base. Something pretty close to sug's list would play well I think.

[Tokugawa]

Even excluded all the green mana from your manabase, shaman is still worth a 4-of. Just play him as a mono-black,2-abilities creature:

"Deathrite Apprentice"

Creature — Elf Shaman 1/2, B

{T}: Exile target land card from a graveyard. Add one mana of any color to your mana pool.

{B}, {T}: Exile target instant or sorcery card from a graveyard. Each opponent loses 2 life.



All our 3CC or 3CC+ spells(lili,souls,vindicate,etc. There are fewer 3CC spells in DGA before the print of Lingering Souls) thirst for acceleration, like for air and water. Can you imagine a GW or GWu aggro deck run 0 Hierarch?

Some BWg list run only 1 bayou as the green land, and I cannot see the adjustment of only 1 land reduce "deck consistance" at any level.

[Zeph]

Even excluded all the green mana from your manabase, shaman is still worth a 4-of. Just play him as a mono-black,2-abilities creature:

"Deathrite Apprentice"

Creature — Elf Shaman 1/2, B

{T}: Exile target land card from a graveyard. Add one mana of any color to your mana pool.

{B}, {T}: Exile target instant or sorcery card from a graveyard. Each opponent loses 2 life.



All our 3CC or 3CC+ spells(lili,souls,vindicate,etc. There are fewer 3CC spells in DGA before the print of Lingering Souls) thirst for acceleration, like for air and water. Can you imagine a GW or GWu aggro deck run 0 Hierarch?

Some BWg list run only 1 bayou as the green land, and I cannot see the adjustment of only 1 land reduce "deck consistance" at any level.

This is basically the main reason why I have drs as a 4-of in my list (refer to the previous page for my list :laugh: )

And I'm sure it's been mentioned countless times, but he improves our goblins MU as well. Blocking that lackey is pretty amazing lol

[Wilkin]

This is basically the main reason why I have drs as a 4-of in my list (refer to the previous page for my list :laugh: )

And I'm sure it's been mentioned countless times, but he improves our goblins MU as well. Blocking that lackey is pretty amazing lol

lol, yeah. So nuts they made Deathrite a 1/2. As if his 3 abilities, hybrid casting and graveyard manipulation wasn't enough. That was one card I was totally wrong on. Deathrite is insane. Being able to accelerate into a Vindicate or Liliana is crazy.

[Tokugawa]

This is basically the main reason why I have drs as a 4-of in my list (refer to the previous page for my list :laugh: )

And I'm sure it's been mentioned countless times, but he improves our goblins MU as well. Blocking that lackey is pretty amazing lol
Yes, he blocks lackey, and also survive the turn2 before-combat Incinerator/Mogg Fanatic, which often used to clear the way for lackey.

He reversed the MU himself.

[Sughayyer]

Yes, he blocks lackey, and also survive the turn2 before-combat Incinerator/Mogg Fanatic, which often used to clear the way for lackey.

He reversed the MU himself.

Yes let's take away a card that is already working on de deck to add another so we can make an already good match even better and make others worse.
Also, do we need T3 acceleration? I thought stoneforge mystic, bob, tidehollow, bitterblossom were great cards to cast on turn 2. Liliana and vindicate can wait the third turn.
Attempting to create a deck that "wins more" often results in a deck that gives unfaithful draws.

[Tokugawa]

Yes let's take away a card that is already working on de deck to add another so we can make an already good match even better and make others worse.
Also, do we need T3 acceleration? I thought stoneforge mystic, bob, tidehollow, bitterblossom were great cards to cast on turn 2. Liliana and vindicate can wait the third turn.
Attempting to create a deck that "wins more" often results in a deck that gives unfaithful draws.

You have never strucked or wasteland-ed on only 2 lands? Ok, congratulations! I meet that almost everday.

[Wilkin]

You have never strucked or wasteland-ed on only 2 lands? Ok, congratulations! I meet that almost everday.

Hehe, i Agree with ya. Deathrite isn't a win more. Even if you aren't casting Liliana, souls, Vindicate etc. turn 2, having that extra acceleration is nice to have.

Even though the deck is 2 colours, we do play a fair number of non-basics including fetches so we can still be hit with stifles and wastelands. Also having an extra mana to be able to play around a daze is nice. Or say being able to Thoughtseize your opponent and then dropping a Mystic turn 2 is awesome.

And of course, it does something which I'm a fan of, screwing with graveyards.

[Wilkin]

Woops wrong thread......posted something that I thought was in Tin Fins ended up here....

Wondering, any of you guys try Aura of Silence yet? Trying it out as a one of in the board.

[JanoschEausH]

Having green for Deathrite is really important. It improves your reanimator and dredge matchup alot. Just sayin.

[Zeph]

Yes let's take away a card that is already working on de deck to add another so we can make an already good match even better and make others worse.
Also, do we need T3 acceleration? I thought stoneforge mystic, bob, tidehollow, bitterblossom were great cards to cast on turn 2. Liliana and vindicate can wait the third turn.
Attempting to create a deck that "wins more" often results in a deck that gives unfaithful draws.

I think that having drs in your opening 7 is never a bad thing as well, that means you'll most likely play that T1 (or discard if you have it. Drs allows for more T1 plays anyways). If he's out T1 then there's a good chance he's going to draw removal as well! That makes room for our key T2 creatures ala bob or sfm.

I've been testing with him ever since he came out and it's been great. I haven't been to a tournament but I frequently play with my friends and there's a pretty diverse meta.

I'd like to ask a question: What does everyone think about sensei's divining top? Should we include some? If so, how many?

[Zeph]

Woops wrong thread......posted something that I thought was in Tin Fins ended up here....

Wondering, any of you guys try Aura of Silence yet? Trying it out as a one of in the board.

Aura of silence is interesting indeed, I was wondering which match ups you would bring it in?

[evilGod]

When would Aura of Silence be used that you wouldn't rather have O-Ring or Serenity? I can't think of any matchups offhand where having the taxing effect would be better than just wrathing.

[Wilkin]

When would Aura of Silence be used that you wouldn't rather have O-Ring or Serenity? I can't think of any matchups offhand where having the taxing effect would be better than just wrathing.

Hmmm....good points. Especially on O-Ring.

In my meta there's a bit of Affinity going around, although Serenity answers that better than Aura of Silence. There's a couple of Hive Mind going around too. Doesn't stop Show and Tell but does affect Grim Monolith and Hive Mind.

In the one tournament I had an Aura, I put it in against Sneak Attack/show. I sided in 3 Surgicals, 1 Ensnaring Bridge, 1 Thalia, 2 Phyrexian Revoker, 1 Karakas, 1 Diabolic Edict and the one Aura of Silence. In theory, It was a way to tax Sneak attack and if there was only one Leyline of Sanctity out there....sac it to take it out, worried that he could have misdirection for Vindicate. In the actual game 2 (I won in 2), he had 2 Leylines out...lol. I also saw Karakas and both Phyrexian Revokers, one naming Griselbrand and the other naming Sneak Attack. Didn't see the Aura, but even if I did it wouldn't have helped as there were 2 Leylines out and Sneak Attack was nullified.

Hm.....may go back to a Serenity although that card won't be in against Sneak attack.....

[Zeph]

Hmmm....good points. Especially on O-Ring.

In my meta there's a bit of Affinity going around, although Serenity answers that better than Aura of Silence. There's a couple of Hive Mind going around too. Doesn't stop Show and Tell but does affect Grim Monolith and Hive Mind.

In the one tournament I had an Aura, I put it in against Sneak Attack/show. I sided in 3 Surgicals, 1 Ensnaring Bridge, 1 Thalia, 2 Phyrexian Revoker, 1 Karakas, 1 Diabolic Edict and the one Aura of Silence. In theory, It was a way to tax Sneak attack and if there was only one Leyline of Sanctity out there....sac it to take it out, worried that he could have misdirection for Vindicate. In the actual game 2 (I won in 2), he had 2 Leylines out...lol. I also saw Karakas and both Phyrexian Revokers, one naming Griselbrand and the other naming Sneak Attack. Didn't see the Aura, but even if I did it wouldn't have helped as there were 2 Leylines out and Sneak Attack was nullified.

Hm.....may go back to a Serenity although that card won't be in against Sneak attack.....

Usually against the Sneak and Show match up I bring in humility, but it seems too slow. Maybe having aura would be better to slow them down enough for us to get there.

It's not like our deck has a fast clock though, so maybe it's better to have a permanent answer to their dudes instead of a taxing effect.

[Wilkin]

Usually against the Sneak and Show match up I bring in humility, but it seems too slow. Maybe having aura would be better to slow them down enough for us to get there.

It's not like our deck has a fast clock though, so maybe it's better to have a permanent answer to their dudes instead of a taxing effect.

My reasoning for Aura of Silence was a 5th way to get rid of a pesky enchantment, namely Leyline of Sanctity and preferably one that couldn't be Misdirected. Being able to tax Sneak Attack being cast is a side benefit. Aura doesn't affect anything else vs that deck but I feel I have enough other cards like Karakas, Revokers, Shriekmaw, Edict effects etc.

I hear ya about Humility. It's a bit slow to cast. Thinking of only running one in the board, replacing Ensnaring Bridge. Going with the Humility since I've tested it against Goblins (a few Goblin decks where I'm at) and it worked. But what I like about Humility or Bridge for that matter against Sneak/show is that they have to get rid of it. With Karakas, they can beat that with Sneak attack.

[Mr. Safety]

Can someone set me up with a fairly current, streamlined list? I'm tempted to play Deadguy Ale, having been a long-time Junk player. I feel like playing Lingering Souls with Hero of Bladehold is really badass, so I'm tempted to do it.

[Valech]

Core cards:
4 Dark Confident
3-4 Stoneforge Mystic
3-4 Deathrite Shaman
3-6 CC1 Discards (Combination out of Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek, Cabal Therapy)
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
4 Swords to Plowshare
2-4 Liliana of the Veil

Often played:
2-4 Lingering Souls
2-3 Bitterblossom
1 SoFaI

Discussed Cards:
2-4 Mother of Runes
2-3 Tidehollow Sculler
1-3 Mirran Crusader
1-3 Hymn to Tourach
1-3 Sensei´s Divining Top
2-4 Vindicate
1-2 Hero of Bladeholde
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2-4 Abrupt Decay (G-Splash)

Rarely Considered:
2-3 Vampire Nighthawk
2-3 Gatekeeper of malakai
2-4 Tarmogoyfs
1-3 Clocks (Abyssal Persecutor, Tombstalker)
1-3 Chrome Mox



Might have forgotten some. Of course one might see cards in other categories than I do.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Here is my list, which is pretty standard from what I've seen.

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [B] Scrubland
1 [B] Bayou
3 [UNH] Swamp
2 [UNH] Plains
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
2 [MBS] Hero of Bladehold
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman

// Spells
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [AP] Vindicate
1 [NPH] Batterskull
3 [DKA] Lingering Souls
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
2 [FE] Hymn to Tourach
2 [MOR] Bitterblossom

The only cards I'd consider swapping are the BBs and Hymns if they're bad at your LGS. Otherwise, it's all very solid.

[Zeph]

Here is my list, which is pretty standard from what I've seen.

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [B] Scrubland
1 [B] Bayou
3 [UNH] Swamp
2 [UNH] Plains
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
2 [MBS] Hero of Bladehold
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman

// Spells
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [AP] Vindicate
1 [NPH] Batterskull
3 [DKA] Lingering Souls
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
2 [FE] Hymn to Tourach
2 [MOR] Bitterblossom

The only cards I'd consider swapping are the BBs and Hymns if they're bad at your LGS. Otherwise, it's all very solid.

Yeah I would say that this list is pretty standard. If you were to start building a dead guy ale, this would be the go to list.

However, there is a vial version of this deck and it becomes much more creature based (moms, scullers, serra avengers, revokers or thalia if you want a pseudo death and taxes theme going). With that they forego lingering souls, bitterblossom, heroes, hymns, and probably cut down on some lilianas and vindicates. That deck is much more aggro based, compared to the standard dead guy list which is aggro control.

[BlackPurple]

Here is my list, which is pretty standard from what I've seen.

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [B] Scrubland
1 [B] Bayou
3 [UNH] Swamp
2 [UNH] Plains
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
2 [MBS] Hero of Bladehold
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman

// Spells
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [AP] Vindicate
1 [NPH] Batterskull
3 [DKA] Lingering Souls
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
2 [FE] Hymn to Tourach
2 [MOR] Bitterblossom

The only cards I'd consider swapping are the BBs and Hymns if they're bad at your LGS. Otherwise, it's all very solid.


Hello,

That's a pretty good base.
But I think 4 Stoneforge for 2 equipments is too much, I know it's always good to draw it in early game but 3 is a better number.
I think if you really want to run Hymn to Tourach it's minimum 3, to increase your chance to have it early in the game, or at worst in the middle, but after that, you will never want to draw them.
I also think that 4 Thoughtseize is too much, you don't run Sensei's Divining top for Bob, and your mana curve is a little high, so I would run a combination between Cabal, IOK, Thoughtseize, to reduce the loss of life.
Bitterblossom is amazing against a bunch of match-ups.

Have a good day :smile:

[Zeph]

Hello,

That's a pretty good base.
But I think 4 Stoneforge for 2 equipments is too much, I know it's always good to draw it in early game but 3 is a better number.
I think if you really want to run Hymn to Tourach it's minimum 3, to increase your chance to have it early in the game, or at worst in the middle, but after that, you will never want to draw them.
I also think that 4 Thoughtseize is too much, you don't run Sensei's Divining top for Bob, and your mana curve is a little high, so I would run a combination between Cabal, IOK, Thoughtseize, to reduce the loss of life.
Bitterblossom is amazing against a bunch of match-ups.

Have a good day :smile:

Playing with bitterblossom really depends on your meta. It's amazing against other control decks but against tempo/midrange decks like bug or rock/jund it doesn't do anything. It's going to get abrupt decayed pretty quickly and once it's in the yard, it's going to grow their goyf two-fold (tribal/enchantment). But it really depends on what you're playing against. I can't argue that bb is amazing, but I'd be careful when to stick it in your main and when it goes into the board.

Cabal with souls is insane, so I would definitely recommend trying that out. But being able to play with cabal therapy takes a lot of knowledge, so if don't feel like you're up to it just run some ioks instead :D

[Wilkin]

I took out Bitterblossom about a month ago...haven't missed them at all. It's an awesome card but Lingering Souls completely took its spot in my deck.

The main reason being is that I've died to Bitterblossom...more so than Dark Confidant. As mentioned before, it's better in a Control meta and making Goyf +2/+2 bigger is a bad thing. lol.

Also, Bitterblossom has no immediate board presence. You have to wait a turn for a dude to show up and even then that faerie is summoning sick. In my meta there's a lot of Canadian Threshold and BUG Tempo, which makes Souls a better choice than Bitterblossom. Getting Blossom countered sucks, Souls not as much especially since you can cast it again.

Bitterblossom is still a good choice though. I imagine a deck with Bitterblossom, Lingering Souls and multiple Zealous Persecution could be pretty insane.

[Zeph]

I took out Bitterblossom about a month ago...haven't missed them at all. It's an awesome card but Lingering Souls completely took its spot in my deck.

The main reason being is that I've died to Bitterblossom...more so than Dark Confidant. As mentioned before, it's better in a Control meta and making Goyf +2/+2 bigger is a bad thing. lol.

Also, Bitterblossom has no immediate board presence. You have to wait a turn for a dude to show up and even then that faerie is summoning sick. In my meta there's a lot of Canadian Threshold and BUG Tempo, which makes Souls a better choice than Bitterblossom. Getting Blossom countered sucks, Souls not as much especially since you can cast it again.

Bitterblossom is still a good choice though. I imagine a deck with Bitterblossom, Lingering Souls and multiple Zealous Persecution could be pretty insane.

Those are good points, I used to play a "token" build of dead guy, that ran a set of souls, 3 bb, 2 heroes of bladehold and 2 sorin, lord of innistrad lol

As you can image once sorin came down it and his -2 ability was activated, the game didn't last much longer than that. But the main problem with that deck was the speed. It was wayyyy to slow against combo and a nightmare against tempo/aggro decks. In control match ups it was great, but yeah... not so good.

It was a really fun deck to play, but I just ended up moving to a tradition deadguy deck. Only thing that's prolly different from other stock lists is my singleton hero and 3 hymns. I find hymns so strong and having drs helps cast it.

[Tokugawa]

There are quite a few cards i want to try out in the deck. Like Cursed Scroll, recurring nightmare, bladesplicer and restoration angel. And if dragons maze teysa is great the also shinzo land that gives legends fear.

You need not test Teysa now.:frown:

[Rizso]

Probly have to wait an other 10 years before we get something exited like Vindicate level for the deck again. :P Mean the 2 last years have given so much in form of liliana, lingering souls, stoneforge.

[Wilkin]

Probly have to wait an other 10 years before we get something exited like Vindicate level for the deck again. :P Mean the 2 last years have given so much in form of liliana, lingering souls, stoneforge.

Deadguy has got a few good ones in the last few years for sure. I can only complain that Gatecrash which had Orzhov colours gave us nothing. But those cards you mentioned plus Deathrite have definitely given the deck a boost.

Disappointed with the new Teysa. Now, I didn't think they would make a Legacy viable one, but she isn't even as good as the original one. 7 mana? Dang. I wouldn't consider her to be even a good EDH commander, which I thought they would at least make her in mind for.

[Zeph]

Deadguy has got a few good ones in the last few years for sure. I can only complain that Gatecrash which had Orzhov colours gave us nothing. But those cards you mentioned plus Deathrite have definitely given the deck a boost.

Disappointed with the new Teysa. Now, I didn't think they would make a Legacy viable one, but she isn't even as good as the original one. 7 mana? Dang. I wouldn't consider her to be even a good EDH commander, which I thought they would at least make her in mind for.

Yeah Teysa was a huge disappointment.... but at least only around 20 cards have been spoiled so far.

Here's to hoping the split/fuse cards for orzhov will be playable!

[Mr. Safety]

Here is my list, which is pretty standard from what I've seen.

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [B] Scrubland
1 [B] Bayou
3 [UNH] Swamp
2 [UNH] Plains
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
2 [MBS] Hero of Bladehold
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman

// Spells
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [AP] Vindicate
1 [NPH] Batterskull
3 [DKA] Lingering Souls
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
2 [FE] Hymn to Tourach
2 [MOR] Bitterblossom

The only cards I'd consider swapping are the BBs and Hymns if they're bad at your LGS. Otherwise, it's all very solid.

Just for some reference, here is my Junk list (which is eerily similar):

4x Deathrite
4x Confidant
3x Goyf
2x Sculler
2x SFM
2x KotR

3x TS
2x IoK
4x StP
2x Lili
3x Decay
3x Souls
1x Jitte
1x BSkull
1x SDT
1x Sylvan Library

22x Lands (7 fetches, 5 duals, 4 Wastes, 4 Basics, 1 each of Horizon Canopy/Treetop Village)

So I think you can see why I'm tempted to play Deadguy...it's really close to my list. I play some other Deadguy tricks in the board like Zealous Persecution, another Liliana, and a Vindicate. The only thing I'd miss really is Pernicious Deed...but with Deathrites, it's still an option even if all I do is splash green for Shaman activation and/or Abrupt Decay.

[Rizso]

Sure Teysa was a let down but Blood Scrivener defenetly wasnt im stocked. Dark Confidant 5-8! Guess i have to get thoes annoyingly expensive foil senseis Divining tops now.

[Wilkin]

Sure Teysa was a let down but Blood Scrivener defenetly wasnt im stocked. Dark Confidant 5-8! Guess i have to get thoes annoyingly expensive foil senseis Divining tops now.

What to take out.....hmmmm......but the card advantage potential is pretty insane. Bob, Scrivener and Tops.

Still like Bob because you will get an extra card for sure but the "Fixed" Bob is pretty good too. Since Deaguy decks usually play Liliana, it shouldn't be that hard to be hellbent, well assuming you don't have Bob in play already but LOL, if he's and play and he's not dead you are usually happy with that.

I can definitely see Scrivener being legacy viable. Jund, Junk, Deadguy etc. I would say though that maybe BUG Control a little less likely since they play some countermagic. I guess you could always hide counterspell on top of your deck with Top, but Forcing by pitching a card is a bit harder to do and still benefit from Scrivener.

[Rizso]

Top and scrivener works anytime even with bob in play as long as you can empty your hand before taping the top for more cards. Havent been this exited for a card for a very long time, cant sleep! :D

With 8 bobs, 2-3 tops 3-4 stoneforge, Cabal Therapy / singering souls / liliana looks like its gonna have so much card advantech.

[Valech]

I can´t figure something out. Let´s assume we have both on the field, Scrivener and Confidant. You are down to 0 cards. Upkeep. Bob triggers. What exactly happens now? You reveal the first card, perhaps lose it´s CMC as life and then draw it and another card? Or does Scrivener replace Confidant´s effect entirely cause it states "instead", thus, you wouldn´t lose life?

[evilGod]

Scrivener seems situational to win more. You've played/Lili'd your hand out and don't have Bob but your opponent can't remove an x/1? I feel like you win there anyway. Or you're doing top tricks which are fun but if you draw 3 and one is the top again which you have to replay to start filtering I'm not sure you're really ahead.

And @Valech, Bob doesn't draw cards so Scrivener doesn't interact at all. You get your Bob reveal, then you draw for turn.

I'm just gonna hope for the B/W fuse card to be at least a board option.

[Rizso]

Scrivener seems situational to win more. You've played/Lili'd your hand out and don't have Bob but your opponent can't remove an x/1? I feel like you win there anyway. Or you're doing top tricks which are fun but if you draw 3 and one is the top again which you have to replay to start filtering I'm not sure you're really ahead.

And @Valech, Bob doesn't draw cards so Scrivener doesn't interact at all. You get your Bob reveal, then you draw for turn.

I'm just gonna hope for the B/W fuse card to be at least a board option.

Thought splitcards doesnt work good with dark confidant as you take damage from both sides.

[JanoschEausH]

I think the Blood Scrivener has more value in Burn- or Pox Style decks. I can't see, how we could utilize this card. If you have Bob on the field, the new "Bloody Bob" will do nothing. Going hellbent is nothing you should be striving for in Deadguy as a midrange deck. This deck lives from its CA and various possibilities to deal with problematic cards (STP, Discard). I would rather hold my STP in hand, than waste it on the wrogn creature just to draw an extra card out of "Bloody Bob".
"Bloody Bob" also shines in decks, which can dump their hand when they want (possibly some Buried-Ooze lists, or a madness-style deck).

[Rizso]

Bloodbob works with top even with dark confidant in play. Also cant count on having dark confidant being alive or even resolved. Having more bobs will never hurt, he is the best card in the deck afterall.

[evilGod]

I know split cards aren't ideal, but if the combined cost is 4 at most there are effects that could be worth playing. Probably not main, but after B/W didn't get an uncounterable, the Charm isn't worth playing, no B/W one drop... gotta hope for something out of all this for those of us that don't splash.

[JanoschEausH]

Bloodbob works with top even with dark confidant in play. Also cant count on having dark confidant being alive or even resolved. Having more bobs will never hurt, he is the best card in the deck afterall.

But at one point you have to empty your hand, so you can use the top. And emptying one's hand can be problematic, if you want to hold some key-spells for later. I think its really bad, to go hellbent just to draw 2 cards off top, and then being forced to draw top itself as the next card...

[Rizso]

Then the top will draw you 2 cards again! If you already got the keycards do you really need more then? What they both do is makes it possible to find the keycards faster.

[JanoschEausH]

Then the top will draw you 2 cards again! If you already got the keycards do you really need more then? What they both do is makes it possible to find the keycards faster.

The top will only draw you two cards again under the premise you can empty your hand again. What if you draw 3 lands in the process?
Let go of the thinking, that Blood Scrivener is Bob 5-8. It is not. If you want Bob 5-8 play Dark Tutelage... Blood Scrivener is even worse than that card in Deadguy...

[Rizso]

Cant sacrifice Dark Tutelage to Cabal Therapy, something you can with the new bob. Low curve with low amount of lands will greatly reduce the landpocket draws. Bloodbob gives cards when you need the most when behind durring topdeckmode, thought with top you can get the effect directly when you play it rather then wait a turn. Low curve and liliana brings us quite fast down to the hellbent stage.

[Kring]

In my opinion, we can't just pass on card advantage, which this card is. I am really interested in this card - BUT not as 4of. 3 of at maximum, and only because you have cabal therapy.

[evilGod]

Test it. I'm skeptical of it actually pulling a game up on it's own, but I've been wrong before. I find that I'm rarely top decking, usually holding back a StP or creatures in case of sweep or something, and when I am top decking it's because Lili's taken over the game already.

And for the record, we can totally pass up card advantage. So many people already don't use Bitterblossom, and at least that's consistently an extra 'card' per turn. This can BloodBob can easily just be a worse bear, especially early game when we're looking to have an impact.

[JanoschEausH]

Test it. I'm skeptical of it actually pulling a game up on it's own, but I've been wrong before. I find that I'm rarely top decking, usually holding back a StP or creatures in case of sweep or something, and when I am top decking it's because Lili's taken over the game already.

And for the record, we can totally pass up card advantage. So many people already don't use Bitterblossom, and at least that's consistently an extra 'card' per turn. This can BloodBob can easily just be a worse bear, especially early game when we're looking to have an impact.

I aggree! This Bloodbob might be good in TopDeck mode. You don't want to cast it Turn 2. Therefore it would have been better if he had a more solid body (like 4/4 for 4). I have tested him a bit on cockatrice (which i can recommend to you - just modify the cards.xml!) I found him clearly underwhelming in this deck. BUT i'm excited to test this guy together with Wild Mongrel and Lotleth Troll! :)

[Kring]

You might be correct dave. Im testing it as 2- of right now. Ill check back for news.

[Raistlin Majere]

I feel like the new Bob is a little lacking especially considering you have to be Hellbent in a deck that runs four Bobs which is the best card in the deck. If you have one in your opening hand along with a real Bob it is going to be a long while until you even get any use out of bloodbob. It just seems like a card that would be great in a small window of opportunity. Also what would be cut from the deck for two or three of this guy?

[Rizso]

I feel like the new Bob is a little lacking especially considering you have to be Hellbent in a deck that runs four Bobs which is the best card in the deck. If you have one in your opening hand along with a real Bob it is going to be a long while until you even get any use out of bloodbob. It just seems like a card that would be great in a small window of opportunity. Also what would be cut from the deck for two or three of this guy?

You first bob will be dead or have a huge target over its head just a matter of time before its exiled or bolted.

[Zeph]

I feel like the new Bob is a little lacking especially considering you have to be Hellbent in a deck that runs four Bobs which is the best card in the deck. If you have one in your opening hand along with a real Bob it is going to be a long while until you even get any use out of bloodbob. It just seems like a card that would be great in a small window of opportunity. Also what would be cut from the deck for two or three of this guy?

With your argument, I'd want to add that having bloodbob in your opening 7 is effectively a deadcard unless you want to cast it before you're hellbent. He just looks embarrassing sitting there waiting to be online. I think he might be good as a 1 or 2 of AT MOST. We already have 4 bobs in our deck, and running another 4 pseudo bobs isn't what this deck is looking for.

This guy's an amazing top deck and works extremely well in conjunction with top (being able to spin, tap and draw two cards). Then if you can actually play both cards in your hand you end up hellbent again, so when you draw your top next turn you can get another activation. And from there you can repeat the entire process again, which effectively lets you draw 3 cards per turn.

I'm sure this sounds great theoretically , but it has to be tested to see if it runs as smoothly as we expect him to.

Maybe I'll proxy some and try it out.... time to put my tops back into this deck :P

[Raistlin Majere]

Not to take away the discussion of Bloodbob but I was wondering what do you all think are the best storm hate cards Deadguy can run in the SB? I was thinking of cards like Ethersworn Canonist and more discard.

[Rizso]

Not to take away the discussion of Bloodbob but I was wondering what do you all think are the best storm hate cards Deadguy can run in the SB? I was thinking of cards like Ethersworn Canonist and more discard.

Canonists, discard and surgical extractions. Trying out cards like Nevermore as well.

[Raistlin Majere]

Nevermore doesn't seem very good against storm. Against decks like TES they run two tutors and three win cons in, Empty the Warrens, Tendrils, and Grapeshot. What would you name against that deck? I feel if you want to run a three mana enchantment against them Rule of Law would just be better, wouldn't it? What do you guys think about Leyline of Sanctity? I know it is not the greatest card but you can actually cast it turn three if you have DRS in the opening two turns and it causes them to try and kill you with goblins, which Zealous persecution or EE could mop up.

[Zeph]

Nevermore doesn't seem very good against storm. Against decks like TES they run two tutors and three win cons in, Empty the Warrens, Tendrils, and Grapeshot. What would you name against that deck? I feel if you want to run a three mana enchantment against them Rule of Law would just be better, wouldn't it? What do you guys think about Leyline of Sanctity? I know it is not the greatest card but you can actually cast it turn three if you have DRS in the opening two turns and it causes them to try and kill you with goblins, which Zealous persecution or EE could mop up.

Leyline of sanctity could be a possibility if you're running e-tutors in the SB. This is my SB right now:

2 Abrupt Decay
2 Surgical Extraction
2 E-tutors
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Humility
1 SoFI
1 O-Ring
1 Rest in Peace
1 E-Plague
1 Bitterblossom
1 Perish

Against TES I'd probably bring in 2 surgicals, 2 e-tutors, 1 ethersworn and 1 e-plague. The plague can handle goblins while I still have targeted discard, hymns, and scullers to attack their hand. Getting ethersworn online is also pretty good at slowing them down.

The only problem is I don't know what I would replace for the leyline. I can see how leyline's good against other decks too, but it seems like my board is too tight as it is.

[BlackPurple]

Leyline of sanctity could be a possibility if you're running e-tutors in the SB. This is my SB right now:

2 Abrupt Decay
2 Surgical Extraction
2 E-tutors
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Humility
1 SoFI
1 O-Ring
1 Rest in Peace
1 E-Plague
1 Bitterblossom
1 Perish

Against TES I'd probably bring in 2 surgicals, 2 e-tutors, 1 ethersworn and 1 e-plague. The plague can handle goblins while I still have targeted discard, hymns, and scullers to attack their hand. Getting ethersworn online is also pretty good at slowing them down.

The only problem is I don't know what I would replace for the leyline. I can see how leyline's good against other decks too, but it seems like my board is too tight as it is.

Can we see your list? it will be easier for helping you.
Thanks

[Zeph]

Can we see your list? it will be easier for helping you.
Thanks

Sure thing! Here's my list atm:

4 Scrublands
1 Bayou
3 Swamps
1 Plains
1 Fetid Heath
4 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Arid Mesa
4 Wasteland

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Hero of Bladehold

3 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vindicate
3 Lingering Souls
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

[Wilkin]

My Personal View on Leyline of Sanctity. IMHO, it's a great sideboard card if you are a combo deck....less so for us. Unless your meta is full of Burn and Belcher I wouldn't use Leyline of Sanctity.

Leyline is great for combo decks to help protect from the first/second turn Thoughtseize and then going off. We don't have that luxury. Secondly, you need at least 3 Leylines in the board....and that means more damage from Bob. Taking 4 for Hero or Elspeth is fine because it could win you the game.....taking 4 to help prolong the game with Leyline....I would say it's not worth it.

[BlackPurple]

My Personal View on Leyline of Sanctity. IMHO, it's a great sideboard card if you are a combo deck....less so for us. Unless your meta is full of Burn and Belcher I wouldn't use Leyline of Sanctity.

Leyline is great for combo decks to help protect from the first/second turn Thoughtseize and then going off. We don't have that luxury. Secondly, you need at least 3 Leylines in the board....and that means more damage from Bob. Taking 4 for Hero or Elspeth is fine because it could win you the game.....taking 4 to help prolong the game with Leyline....I would say it's not worth it.

I totally agree with you. I was just writing the same response as you.

[BlackPurple]

Sure thing! Here's my list atm:

4 Scrublands
1 Bayou
3 Swamps
1 Plains
1 Fetid Heath
4 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Arid Mesa
4 Wasteland

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Hero of Bladehold

3 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vindicate
3 Lingering Souls
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte



Nice list.
I'm not a huge fan of Tidehollow Sculler without Vial though, but why not. Does that work well?

[Kayradis]

When I ran the list this summer, I was playing Tidehollow without the vials.
A T1 Sculler when your hand lacks hand distruption to go T2 Stoneforge/Liliana is pretty bonkers!

[Valech]

How do you T1 Sculler without Mox?

[Kayradis]

How do you T1 Sculler without Mox?

I was running 4 Moxen main.
I should have mentionned that!

Edit : When I say The List, I ment B/W Dead Ale Guy.

[evilGod]

My meta has enough combo that I need to be ready for it, but I've been playing Sculler for months now with no complaints. At his worst, you get perfect info and a 2/2. At best, he's Castigate with a 2/2 attached. Occasionally just him being a lightning rod for removal can allow Misty or Bob to run away with the game. And all of my testing is without Vial. Don't think I've gone worse than 2-2 without giving someone the win.

[Kayradis]

My meta has enough combo that I need to be ready for it, but I've been playing Sculler for months now with no complaints. At his worst, you get perfect info and a 2/2. At best, he's Castigate with a 2/2 attached. Occasionally just him being a lightning rod for removal can allow Misty or Bob to run away with the game. And all of my testing is without Vial. Don't think I've gone worse than 2-2 without giving someone the win.

That, sir, is a statement I totally get behind!

[JanoschEausH]

I have played Tidehollow Sculler for some time, too. He was awesome, especially in the conjunction with cabal therapy, because he gives us information.
But as of lately, i noticed, that he is a problem against the fair decks, because discard effects are not that good against such types of decks (Maverick, Jund, Junk, Goblins...) Also, he makes opposing Tarmogoyfs (and our own, if we play some) alot bigger - being an artifact. I replaced him with Phyrexian Revoker. Revoker suffers similiar problems in terms of blocking and being an artifact, but in testing he offered enormous flexibility. Against combo, there is always something you wanna name (LED, Lotus Petal, Griselbrand or even Sneak Attack). You can drop him with Show and Tell and then name your card, before your opponents gets the chance to activate Grisel or Sneak in response (because its not a triggered ability and doesn't use the stack).

And as a bonus: He shuts off Gempalm Incinerators and Vials against Goblins AND is a colorless creature and can block any creatures despite protection.

Regarding the Sideboard:

2x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Rest in Peace
1x Humility
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Zealous Persecution
2x Cabal Therapy
2x Perish

thats what i'm playing. I have to mention, i run 2x Oblivion Ring main and 4x Discard. I think my Sideboard is well suited for combo-opponents and i never felt like being inferior to them in tournaments. I'm playing 3x RIP because i wanted to have a way to beat Jund postboard. Hard. Besides, RIP is also good against Storm and Dredge (common in my meta).

[evilGod]

You realize that Jund lists us as one of the worst matchups for them, right? And personally, across several different configurations over the past 2 years, I have lost 1 match to TRIBAL. And it wasn't even Goblins, it was Elves.

The combo decks I play against tend to be storm or Omni/Halls. Revoker does nothing to the second, but Sculler does work against both, so I've stuck with him. Playing in an event tonight, if I learn anything I'll share tomorrow.

[Mr. Safety]

My meta has enough combo that I need to be ready for it, but I've been playing Sculler for months now with no complaints. At his worst, you get perfect info and a 2/2. At best, he's Castigate with a 2/2 attached. Occasionally just him being a lightning rod for removal can allow Misty or Bob to run away with the game. And all of my testing is without Vial. Don't think I've gone worse than 2-2 without giving someone the win.

I've been trying to convince folks over at the Rock thread of this for ages...I at one time played all 4 copies of Sculler, in Junk of all decks. I think I play Junk like Deadguy Ale really, I just splash green for Decay, Goyfs, and a pair of Knights. I wish I could play 3 maindeck Scullers, but I have found that the only flexible slot is Lingering Souls (for junk anyways) and right now, playing 3 Souls seems right with only 2 Scullers.

I'll be lurking around this thread, but I may stick to my 'Deadguy Junk' list rather than going all-in on Deadguy Ale.

[Zeph]

Everyone's already posted the reasons why I'm playing sculler in my main! He's such a good card against combo and at worst he's a bear that can hold equipment. And the fact that it draws removal means less to worry about on all your other creatures.

If I had the cards, I'd definitely try to splash green more heavily and play goyfs and abrupt decay main. I would definitely want to try kotr as well but I think the 3-drop slot is already tight enough as it is (lili, LS, vindicate) and it's going to get too clunky. I've never tried this so I could be completely wrong and it works out great in practice. I guess it just depends on how many of each card you put in.

All in all, I think that sculler is a great card and it should be played more (Just like hymns)!

[JanoschEausH]

Everyone's already posted the reasons why I'm playing sculler in my main! He's such a good card against combo and at worst he's a bear that can hold equipment. And the fact that it draws removal means less to worry about on all your other creatures.

If I had the cards, I'd definitely try to splash green more heavily and play goyfs and abrupt decay main. I would definitely want to try kotr as well but I think the 3-drop slot is already tight enough as it is (lili, LS, vindicate) and it's going to get too clunky. I've never tried this so I could be completely wrong and it works out great in practice. I guess it just depends on how many of each card you put in.

All in all, I think that sculler is a great card and it should be played more (Just like hymns)!

Personally, I think Hymn is a bad card. It shines against Combo and is bad against all others. Turn 2 you wanna lay down bob or mystic. The BB casting cost can be problematic, too. And it's by far one of the worst topdeck cards in the lategame. I would play Sculler/Revoker over Hymn all day.

[evilGod]

Made top 4 last night running straight B/W, can post list later if people want it.

Round 1 - Burn (win, 2-1)
Game 1 I mull to 5, Goblin Guide reminds me why his initial's are GG. I take note of the main board Sulfuric Vortex. Game 2 he needles my top, I slam Cop out Red, follow up with Liliana. Game 3 Guide shows him Cop out on top of my deck before it eats a StP, he Spikes and Fireblasts me that turn leaving himself with nothing. No idea why. Stoneforge into Batterskull plus still having 11 life and side tech takes the match.

Round 2 - Canadian Thresh (win, 2-0)
Friend of mine, and having played this before we know how it goes. He gets a good start, but I Plow Delver and flood the board with souls on 8 life. Sculler with SoFaI holds off Mongoose until I draw Sorin, make a few tokens to gain life, and slowly drain life in the air until he's low enough for Emblem alpha strike to be lethal. Game 2 I kill his T1 delver, land Rest in Peace, and make more tokens.

Round 3 - Dredge (loss, 0-2)
Game 1, dredge is dredge. Game 2 I mull into double RiP, and he gets the Therapy before I can cast one.

Round 4 - UR Burn (intentional scoop, 2-0)
I get paired down to another friend who's on 4 points, we all think it's 4 rounds because of the turnout not realizing that the TO has decided to do 5 anyway, and he scoops to me with us thinking he has no shot.

Round 5 - UR Control (ID, 0-0-3)
So I draw with another friend who would'be made top 4 last round anyway, the other two who would've been top 4 draw, I buy my UR Burn playing friend a soda and candy because I feel bad, and we wait around for another 30ish minutes to actually split top 4.

Nothing spectacular, but figured the more I talk about this the more we can try and get others involved.

[Kring]

Made top 4 last night running straight B/W, can post list later if people want it.

Round 2 - Canadian Thresh (win, 2-0)
Friend of mine, and having played this before we know how it goes. He gets a good start, but I Plow Delver and flood the board with souls on 8 life. Sculler with SoFaI holds off Mongoose until I draw Sorin, make a few tokens to gain life, and slowly drain life in the air until he's low enough for Emblem alpha strike to be lethal. Game 2 I kill his T1 delver, land Rest in Peace, and make more tokens.

.

Post the list man, im interested - after seeing you are using sorin!!!!

[Mr. Safety]

Everyone's already posted the reasons why I'm playing sculler in my main! He's such a good card against combo and at worst he's a bear that can hold equipment. And the fact that it draws removal means less to worry about on all your other creatures.

If I had the cards, I'd definitely try to splash green more heavily and play goyfs and abrupt decay main. I would definitely want to try kotr as well but I think the 3-drop slot is already tight enough as it is (lili, LS, vindicate) and it's going to get too clunky. I've never tried this so I could be completely wrong and it works out great in practice. I guess it just depends on how many of each card you put in.

All in all, I think that sculler is a great card and it should be played more (Just like hymns)!

I play zero hymns. Liliana is a much better option for discard-based advantage. She is good as soon as you can play her and she's fantastic at any stage of the game. Hymn is really only good in the early game (for the most part) and is a disappointing top-deck in the late game. I play 2 Liliana's in the main, 1 in the sideboard.

Like I said in the Rock thread: I'd play 4 Liliana's before I played 1 Hymn right now. That may change, but I doubt it.

[evilGod]

I'm still running slightly budget (I will get that last Bob and some Thoughtseizes eventually) but this was my list.

3 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tidehollow Sculler

3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lingering Souls
2 Bitterblossom
1 Cabal Therapy
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Zealous Persecution
2 Vindicate

2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

2 Plains
3 Swamp
4 Scrubland
1 Flooded Strand
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland

2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Circle of Protection: Red
2 Rest in Peace
1 Serenity
1 Humility
1 Engineered Plague
1 Cursed Totem
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Armageddon
2 Duress
1 Perish

Last night was the first time I tested Sorin, he's a response to the Miracle decks that have ben showing up in my meta more often. The Zealous is for the Goblins/Elves players that randomly pop in, along with the mostly non-existent Maverick/Bant decks. I have used it as a combat trick a few times, but I wouldn't run it just for that.

I was running - Therapy -Zealous +2 Duress in the main, but most of the heavy combo players didn't show and I figured I'd try something else out. I also feel that Hymn is only really good against control decks like UWx blade, which you should be beating anyway.

[Zeph]

I'm still running slightly budget (I will get that last Bob and some Thoughtseizes eventually) but this was my list.

3 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tidehollow Sculler

3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lingering Souls
2 Bitterblossom
1 Cabal Therapy
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Zealous Persecution
2 Vindicate

2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

2 Plains
3 Swamp
4 Scrubland
1 Flooded Strand
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland

2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Circle of Protection: Red
2 Rest in Peace
1 Serenity
1 Humility
1 Engineered Plague
1 Cursed Totem
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Armageddon
2 Duress
1 Perish

Last night was the first time I tested Sorin, he's a response to the Miracle decks that have ben showing up in my meta more often. The Zealous is for the Goblins/Elves players that randomly pop in, along with the mostly non-existent Maverick/Bant decks. I have used it as a combat trick a few times, but I wouldn't run it just for that.

I was running - Therapy -Zealous +2 Duress in the main, but most of the heavy combo players didn't show and I figured I'd try something else out. I also feel that Hymn is only really good against control decks like UWx blade, which you should be beating anyway.

Sweet list, I used to run a very similar list as this one (bw token themed). I never had zealous main but I did have 2 in my board.

I wanted to ask about your armageddon in the board. Why do you have that there? Do you bring it in against midrange/grindy match ups where once you've established a board presence you just wrath the lands? I'd like to know your thoughts on it.

[evilGod]

I guess that would confuse people, should've explained it.

We have had not 1 but 2 Turbo Eldrazi decks played with extreme consistency over the past 2 months. Our deck does not beat Turbo Eldrazi, and with 14-30 people in a tournament I can't just dodge the matchup.

[Zeph]

I guess that would confuse people, should've explained it.

We have had not 1 but 2 Turbo Eldrazi decks played with extreme consistency over the past 2 months. Our deck does not beat Turbo Eldrazi, and with 14-30 people in a tournament I can't just dodge the matchup.

Oh okay that makes more sense. I would think that armageddon is basically autowin against them even if you have any type of threat on the field.

Against turbo eldrazi what do you usually aim to do? I think having a resolved liliana against them is pretty devastating, so do you try to get that out as soon as possible? Or do you keep dropping threats like sfm -> batterskull + other equipment (since it doesn't die to o-stone or all is dust, conveniently lol)

[evilGod]

If they don't drop Needle naming wasteland you have a chance. Otherwise, it really doesn't matter what line you take. They hardcast Eldrazi, and if Primeval Titan ever hits the board there's no coming back. They don't care about anything our deck does.

If you can call this a line, it would be Wasteland into early Liliana (with all the anti synergy that requires) into more wastelands and Vindicate until you can ult Lili. And this line folds to Needle on Lili or wasteland, or them getting O-Stone, or Show & Tell into Prime Time.

It's the worst matchup I've ever played. You probably have better chances of beating Belcher than you do of winning a match against a solid Turbo player. It's not impossible, but it's incredibly unlikely.

[Tokugawa]

If they don't drop Needle naming wasteland you have a chance. Otherwise, it really doesn't matter what line you take. They hardcast Eldrazi, and if Primeval Titan ever hits the board there's no coming back. They don't care about anything our deck does.

If you can call this a line, it would be Wasteland into early Liliana (with all the anti synergy that requires) into more wastelands and Vindicate until you can ult Lili. And this line folds to Needle on Lili or wasteland, or them getting O-Stone, or Show & Tell into Prime Time.

It's the worst matchup I've ever played. You probably have better chances of beating Belcher than you do of winning a match against a solid Turbo player. It's not impossible, but it's incredibly unlikely.

They could maindeck 3~4 needles, since every Wasteland in every deck is a threat to them.

Is winter orb in sb useful?

[Zeph]

Winter's Orb is a viable strategy actually... We should probably test that :o

[Wilkin]

I've only faced Turbo Eldrazi 3 or 4 times but I haven't lost to them yet. I usually side in a couple extractions, revokers, humility, Karakas and Explosives vs them...

Armageddon is interesting if it's that bad of a matchup for you.

Hehe, looking up weird cards....Eye of Singularity looks funny. When Eye of Singularity enters the battlefield, destroy each permanent with the same name as another permanent, except for basic lands. They can't be regenerated. Whenever a permanent other than a basic land enters the battlefield, destroy all other permanents with that name. They can't be regenerated.

So...I guess that means when it comes into play....if he has more than 1 glimmerpost or 1 cloudpost they are toast. After that, if he plays 2 of the same non-basic land the previous one is destroyed. Same mana cost as Armageddon and it stays on the battlefield, ready to mess with your opponents mana base. Yours as well but aside from wasteland and Scrubland you should be ok. Well, Lingering Souls becomes a crap card with this in play but the sacrifice may be worth it?

[Tokugawa]

Winter's Orb is a viable strategy actually... We should probably test that :o

Ensnaring Bridge or Humility could also help, but since 12-post decks usually have 4*Repeal MD, I'm afraid that our permanent-type answer is not effective when they have enough(easily reach 10+)mana.

[Mr. Safety]

If they don't drop Needle naming wasteland you have a chance. Otherwise, it really doesn't matter what line you take. They hardcast Eldrazi, and if Primeval Titan ever hits the board there's no coming back. They don't care about anything our deck does.

If you can call this a line, it would be Wasteland into early Liliana (with all the anti synergy that requires) into more wastelands and Vindicate until you can ult Lili. And this line folds to Needle on Lili or wasteland, or them getting O-Stone, or Show & Tell into Prime Time.

It's the worst matchup I've ever played. You probably have better chances of beating Belcher than you do of winning a match against a solid Turbo player. It's not impossible, but it's incredibly unlikely.

I would sideboard in such a way as to have a full 4 Liliana's available, or at least work in additional edict effects. If your mana-base can handle it, try taking a note from The Gate and using Gatekeeper of Malakir. The sorcery speed is a problem though...

This is where Junk can be superior. KotR and Loam allow you to get a waste-lock pretty early.

[Rizso]

As suspected the orzhov split cards are quite bad... zealous persecution for 6mana fuse! other is vault of the archangel so pretty bommer. If they is gonna be some other cards for the deck its gonna be commons uncommons or the last black rare but dont think there will be more.

Bloodbob is the only card so far thats interesting.

[Zeph]

As suspected the orzhov split cards are quite bad... zealous persecution for 6mana fuse! other is vault of the archangel so pretty bommer. If they is gonna be some other cards for the deck its gonna be commons uncommons or the last black rare but dont think there will be more.

Bloodbob is the only card so far thats interesting.

Even then, the bloodbob isn't that good for us.... He's much better in Sam Black's Zombardment deck :P He's a zombie for gravecrawler recursion and they go hellbent pretty quickly.

Anyways, I'm updated my list and decided to remove the hymns to add more consistency in my cards (eg. +2 top, +1 iok) and I also took out the bitterblossom from my board for a sorin, lord of innistrad.

I don't know if you've tried him, but he's a boss against control/grindy decks. People always compare him with elspeth and say how she's better, but Sorin is easier to cast, and his anthem is a big deal since your opponent can't get rid of it. Whenever I play him, I usually +1, then -2, then +1, then -2 him depending on how long he lives. Once you have 1 or 2 anthems out there your lingering souls basically become flipped delvers that's pretty sweet. Anyone else been trying him out lately?

I also got a chance to play against TES this weekend with someone at my LGS. We played 3 matches and I won 2 of them. One was pre board and one was post board. It was nice to finally get a feel on how to play against combo and what kind of mulligan decisions to make!

[Wilkin]

Might try Sorin if the meta gets more grindy. Seems in my area that Jund is played less now. Which is nice since I hate playing against Jund.

Played 3 tournaments in the last 2 weekends. Today 4-2. Boo urns. Last week 4-2-1, lost my win and in to the top 8 which sucks and 4-1-2...making top 8 and punting my playoff match.

Seems there's a lot of Sneak attack where I'm at. I went 3-1 versus that deck. Against 2 of my opponents my opening hands in each game had a Karakas AND a Shriekmaw. My Second awesome moment was beating Reanimator. I had 12 cards to side in against him for games 2 and 3. So yeah I won those matches.....my sideboard plan was to heavily slant towards Graveyard hate and Show and tell hate which Reanimator gets hit with...

Yeah I must say I am annoyed with the "fixed" Zealous Persecution. Not even from just a Legacy viable standpoint but couldn't they have made a unique black/white card? Like say white exiling 2 cards in the GY and black everyone sacrificing a creature. The new bob is interesting but I can't find a space for it and it kinda sucks that Dark Confidant and Blood Scrivener don't really work together well. If you have no cards in hand, Bob gives you a card....so then Scrivener doesn't trigger. I'm sure they thought of that when they designed that card.

[Tokugawa]

Bob is much more superior. Bloodbob need us to empty the hands ASAP, which we usually won't. Maybe he would be effective in pox or bombardment decks.

[Rizso]

Thought you only need one of them online to win. Also top helps them both thought blood bob goes crazy when having 2 top going.

I for one will rewamp my deck with tops and bloodbobs. Bloodbob also makes any mulligans less punishing when the deck contains 8 bobs even when opponents have their removal ready för your first.

[razvan]

Might try Sorin if the meta gets more grindy. Seems in my area that Jund is played less now. Which is nice since I hate playing against Jund.

Played 3 tournaments in the last 2 weekends. Today 4-2. Boo urns. Last week 4-2-1, lost my win and in to the top 8 which sucks and 4-1-2...making top 8 and punting my playoff match.

Seems there's a lot of Sneak attack where I'm at. I went 3-1 versus that deck. Against 2 of my opponents my opening hands in each game had a Karakas AND a Shriekmaw. My Second awesome moment was beating Reanimator. I had 12 cards to side in against him for games 2 and 3. So yeah I won those matches.....my sideboard plan was to heavily slant towards Graveyard hate and Show and tell hate which Reanimator gets hit with...

Yeah I must say I am annoyed with the "fixed" Zealous Persecution. Not even from just a Legacy viable standpoint but couldn't they have made a unique black/white card? Like say white exiling 2 cards in the GY and black everyone sacrificing a creature. The new bob is interesting but I can't find a space for it and it kinda sucks that Dark Confidant and Blood Scrivener don't really work together well. If you have no cards in hand, Bob gives you a card....so then Scrivener doesn't trigger. I'm sure they thought of that when they designed that card.
I don't know, you seem to have trashed me pretty good in our 'round 6' on Saturday. Even the one game you conceded, I think it was premature, you could have topdecked a removal for Bob. I think Jund is annoying, but overall, you are just slightly better.

Sorin is pretty sick with the amount of crap you seem to throw on the board. Even just using it for the Emblem once is pretty good. How many 4-drops do you have now, and what would you drop for him?

No, Wilkin, I am not going to switch to Deadguy, although your deck does seem very fun. How many SFMs are you running now anyway?

ps: I think that I just want to play something that can play Perish. In the past 5 tournaments I lost to Show and Tell, my own stupidity, and nothing that Perish wasn't gonna fix.

[Mirrislegend]

Is anyone else having issues with having an insufficient early clock? I can disrupt my opponent in the early game, but without an immediate clock (LSouls, Stoneforge, Mishra's Factory are too slow, Hero is too late) to back it up they have time to rebuild.

[Kring]

The card you are looking for is tidehollow sculler!

[Arsenal]

T1 discard, T2 sculler is tough. Turn 3 anything (lilina, souls, etc) is backbreaking.

[Mirrislegend]

Ugh, I have no room for Sculler >_<

[Valech]

Ugh, I have no room for Sculler >_<

Then where would you have room for an early clock?

[Wilkin]

I don't know, you seem to have trashed me pretty good in our 'round 6' on Saturday. Even the one game you conceded, I think it was premature, you could have topdecked a removal for Bob. I think Jund is annoying, but overall, you are just slightly better.

Sorin is pretty sick with the amount of crap you seem to throw on the board. Even just using it for the Emblem once is pretty good. How many 4-drops do you have now, and what would you drop for him?

No, Wilkin, I am not going to switch to Deadguy, although your deck does seem very fun. How many SFMs are you running now anyway?

ps: I think that I just want to play something that can play Perish. In the past 5 tournaments I lost to Show and Tell, my own stupidity, and nothing that Perish wasn't gonna fix.

LOL. Yeah, and I shouldn't have swung with Hero of Bladehold until a turn later when I could have swung with her and some Lingering Tokens. The 4 drops I use are 2 Hero of Bladehold. Sorin's a good card but Hero represents a much faster clock. But Sorin does improve those grindy matchups. I also have a Batterskull and 2 Shriekmaw for 5 drops. I like Shriekmaw.....at worst it's a 2 mana terror. Late game it's a 2 for 1 with evasion and living the dream is a show and tell playing Emrakul and me landing Shriekmaw. Got Sammy T with that in Barrie, killed his Emrakul and on my next turn swung with Phyrexian Revoker (naming Sneak attack) and Shriekmaw, then wasted 2 of his lands.

Only run 3 Stoneforge. I used to run 4 with 3 equipment but I hate casting Stoneforge with nothing to search for, which happened from time to time. So I run 3 Stoneforge with a Jitte, SOFI and a Batterskull and haven't gone back. Considering running a Feast and Famine in the board for combo but it's probably way too slow.

Show and tell. Yeah it's annoying to deal with. My record against that deck is only really good because of awesome luck and very hateful sideboarding. Right now it's 9 cards. Lol, Perish eh? Esper Stoneblade perhaps? I'm thinking of playing a different deck too.....tried Tin Fins once. Got to say, winning turn 1 drawing the entire deck is a refreshing change.

[Zeph]

LOL. Yeah, and I shouldn't have swung with Hero of Bladehold until a turn later when I could have swung with her and some Lingering Tokens. The 4 drops I use are 2 Hero of Bladehold. Sorin's a good card but Hero represents a much faster clock. But Sorin does improve those grindy matchups. I also have a Batterskull and 2 Shriekmaw for 5 drops. I like Shriekmaw.....at worst it's a 2 mana terror. Late game it's a 2 for 1 with evasion and living the dream is a show and tell playing Emrakul and me landing Shriekmaw. Got Sammy T with that in Barrie, killed his Emrakul and on my next turn swung with Phyrexian Revoker (naming Sneak attack) and Shriekmaw, then wasted 2 of his lands.

Only run 3 Stoneforge. I used to run 4 with 3 equipment but I hate casting Stoneforge with nothing to search for, which happened from time to time. So I run 3 Stoneforge with a Jitte, SOFI and a Batterskull and haven't gone back. Considering running a Feast and Famine in the board for combo but it's probably way too slow.

Show and tell. Yeah it's annoying to deal with. My record against that deck is only really good because of awesome luck and very hateful sideboarding. Right now it's 9 cards. Lol, Perish eh? Esper Stoneblade perhaps? I'm thinking of playing a different deck too.....tried Tin Fins once. Got to say, winning turn 1 drawing the entire deck is a refreshing change.

That's pretty sweet, do you mind posting your list? Do you run any scullers in your main 60?

[Wilkin]

That's pretty sweet, do you mind posting your list? Do you run any scullers in your main 60?

Pretty sure I've posted it before but sure...... and no Scullers in the 75.

4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Hero of Bladehold
2 Shriekmaw

2 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Hymn To Tourach
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Vindicate
4 Swords to PLowshares
3 Lingerings Souls
2 Chrome Mox
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

4 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Caves of Koilos
3 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland


I like Sculler but can't find a spot for him plus I hate the fact that opponent gets the card back when he's gone. I have a good games vs most decks I think. Decks that give me the most problems are burn, turn 1 combo decks and decks that can cast many creatures early (zoo, goblins etc.), Jund is annoying too especially the Punishing Fire version. The tier 1 decks I prey on the most are Sneak/show and RUG threshold. Shriekmaws have killed plenty of Emrakuls of late.

Can't let go of Chrome Mox. Beat Storm recently casting a first turn Thalia. Beat BUG casting a turn 1 Bob....and then wasting his lands the next 3 turns so he couldn't Abrupt Decay him. Haven't done a first turn Hymn to Tourach in a little while but have done thoughtseize and therapy which is nice.

And to answer another poster....As far as creatures with a fast clock......in black/white there aren't any really. Big creatures with low cost are either Green or Delver of Secrets or Phyrexian Dreadnought. White's good creatures all seem to be hate bears. And black's aren't big either. The 3 closest (3 mana or less) would be Death's Shadow, Nyxathid or Nantuko Shade. I tried the latter 2. Not good enough. I rarely got Nyxathid to be big enough....usually it was a 4/4. And Shade is a mana sieve. I'd rather be spending mana on other things. And death's Shadow in the right deck (Gerry T's list) is good but not here, unless you really want to build around it.

Also tried Phyrexian Obliterator. He only really shined vs Red decks. I once had an Obliterator with Batterskull vs UR Delver. Now that's win more. lol. Then after seeing Caleb Durward use Hero, I gave it a shot. It's good. Elspeth or Sorin are better in grindfests but if you want to threaten a 2 turn clock....in black/white I can't see anything better. 4 mana is A LOT though but I don't see any better options.

[razvan]

LOL. Yeah, and I shouldn't have swung with Hero of Bladehold until a turn later when I could have swung with her and some Lingering Tokens. The 4 drops I use are 2 Hero of Bladehold. Sorin's a good card but Hero represents a much faster clock. But Sorin does improve those grindy matchups. I also have a Batterskull and 2 Shriekmaw for 5 drops. I like Shriekmaw.....at worst it's a 2 mana terror. Late game it's a 2 for 1 with evasion and living the dream is a show and tell playing Emrakul and me landing Shriekmaw. Got Sammy T with that in Barrie, killed his Emrakul and on my next turn swung with Phyrexian Revoker (naming Sneak attack) and Shriekmaw, then wasted 2 of his lands.

...

Show and tell. Yeah it's annoying to deal with. My record against that deck is only really good because of awesome luck and very hateful sideboarding. Right now it's 9 cards.
My problem with Shriekmaw is that non-black clause. The inability to smoke Griselbanned is very annoying. That's why i like Big Game Hunter a lot. I never draw him except when it doesn't matter, but the few times he was relevant... was he ever relevant. Sure it cannot kill certain things... like HERO OF BLADEHOLD. Seriously.

I found myself winning that match-up with less hate. Stuff like discard and Surgical Extraction is pretty sweet, and enchantment removal, coupled with a clock. I find myself playing for luck... such as not worrying whether they have it or not, and just trying to race.

May I ask what 9 cards? So far mine is just 3 Pyroblasts, 2 BGH, 2 Surgicals, 3 Enchantment destruction (Grip, Pulse and Golgari Charm, and possibly 2 Helms. So 12 I suppose. It's generally fun!

thinking of playing a different deck too.....tried Tin Fins once. Got to say, winning turn 1 drawing the entire deck is a refreshing change.
Well, it generally smokes SnT straight up, and other decks not prepared for it. I cannot say that it's bad to play unfair decks. Seems tons more fun that SnT anyway.

Only run 3 Stoneforge. I used to run 4 with 3 equipment but I hate casting Stoneforge with nothing to search for, which happened from time to time. So I run 3 Stoneforge with a Jitte, SOFI and a Batterskull and haven't gone back. Considering running a Feast and Famine in the board for combo but it's probably way too slow.
I think that Feast/Famine is not really for combo as you said. I think it's more for grindy matchups against Junk and Jund and the like. Fire/Ice is nice but it's blockable, and even if you don't use either Feast or Famine, and just use it as a +2/+2 unblockable, you can still get there.

Eh. I am thinking of just switching to Junk. Matt Pavlic's new list is pretty cool with Sigarda, and of course I managed to take out some stuff and slide in SFM/equipment.

[Wilkin]

Yeah Shriekmaw can't hit Griselbrand which kinda sucks. I go with Shriekmaw main over Big Game Hunter (which btw I have tried) since it's a 2 mana kill spell at worst vs other decks, whereas BGH is 3 mana. 1 mana in certain circumstances i guess but that never came up when I tried it.

9 cards for Sneak/show at the moment.
1 humility
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Phyrexian Revokers
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Karakas

It used to be 10, I had a Diabolic Edict. lol.

Sigarda is awesome but what is it 5 mana? Considering how much combo and tempo decks there are around , not sure on Sigarda.....if the meta shifts back to Esperblade and Jund wouldn't hurt to give her a shot.

[Zeph]

When you guys side in against show and tell or combo decks, do you bring enlightened tutors in? Or do you guys even have tutors in your board?

I have 2 right now but I feel like overkill, but I do have a lot of 1 ofs that can be tutored (like oring, ethersworn cannonist, humility, pithing needle). And against gy decks I only have 2 surgicals and 1 rip, but 2 tutors. Maybe I should go -1 tutor and +1 rip...

[Wilkin]

I don't play Enlightened Tutor. It's a great card but it is card disadvantage plus topdecking it when you need to answer immediately kinda sucks. I have 9 cards in board for show and tell plus some relevant maindeck cards like Liliana, Shriekmaw and Karakas.

3 cards for GY decks seems a bit low, although if you play Deathrite Shaman it's not too bad. I play 5 GY hate in board. 2 surgicals and 2 RIP are fine for board. I board in surgicals vs decks like Dredge of course but also any combo deck. RIP, I put in against Thresh decks. Goyf and Mongoose are more managable as 0/1 and 1/1. :D

[Rizso]

Playing shriekmaw really screams for playing with recurring nightmare in conjuction.

Have thought much about new list with. dragonsmaze get released. Numbera are never final but still.


4 bob
4 bloodbob
3 - 4 tops tops do turn into ancestrals when having 2 bloodbobs in play so.

That would be my draw engines.
Stoneforge package i like the current i use
3 stoneforge
1 jitte
1 batterskulle
With an extra jitte in the board.

Actually think im gonna stay with the 4 thoughtsize and cabal therapy discard suid after as well. For finisher im probly gonna split between hero and sorin so many choices atm.

[JanoschEausH]

I'm playing 2 O-Rings main, so Enlightened Tutor is good, cuz it virtually doubles my O-Ring amount in G2 + G3. Against Jund and SnT i also board a copy of Humility. Besides that im packing 2 Phyrexian Revoker main. It's alot SnT-hate and makes that matchup like 50/50 again. Against other Combo (Aluren, Storm, Elves, Dredge), i side in Surgical Extractions, Ethersworn Canonist, Rest in Peace, 2x Cabal Therapy and occasionally (against Elves) Zealous Persecution and Perish. I think my Sideboard is really well suited to fight Combo. Therefore i weaken my "fair" matchups a bit.

[Raistlin Majere]

I just started playing this deck last week and was able to get Top 4 this week at my local shop after going an abysmal 1-2 the week before. Just wanted to do a little tournament report and post my deck list to see what you all think.

Deck List:

Creatures:
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark confidant
3x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Hero of Bladehold

Instants:
4x Swords to plowshares
2x Abrupt Decay

Sorceries:
4x Lingering Souls
3x Inquistion of Kozilek
3x Cabal Therapy
1x Vindicate

Artifacts:
2x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Batterskull
1x Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice

Planeswalkers:
3x Liliana of the Veil

Lands:
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Marsh Flats
4x Scrubland
4x Wasteland
1x Bayou
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Swamp
2x Plains

Sideboard:
3x Duress
2x Perish
2x Zealous Persecution
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Ethersworn Cannoist
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Diabolic Edict

Round 1: Team Italia

Game one: I win the roll and keep a pretty slow hand of four lands, lingering souls, jitte, and Liliana. I never got going in this game but his Bob deals him 13 damage through the game and I am able to flashback a lingering souls and cast a deathrite once he is at two from Bob triggers and fetching and he scoops.

I don't know this match up at all and only bring in Nihil Spellbomb and Oblivion Ring, forgot what I took out.

Game two: I take a good hand with Hero and Deathrite Shaman and some other cards, I play turn one Shaman and pass. He swords my shaman and passes back, I play Bob and pass turn he plays Grim Lavamancer and passes back. Reveal a land off of Bob and draw my second Hero of Bladehold, I play a land and pass back to him. He shoots my Bob with lavamancer and then takes a Stoneforge out of my hand with an Inquisition. I draw Sword of Fire and Ice for the turn and just start slamming bombs at this point because he has one card in hand. I play Hero and pass, he top decks Liliana and make me sac, I play my second Hero and pass, he swords to plowshares it and passes. I slam Sword of Fire and Ice and he finally doesn't have an answer, he floods out and can't deal with my lingering souls tokens after I kill his Lavamancer.

1-0

Round 2: Punishing Jund

Game one: I'll make this one short and sweet, I get nothing going and he steam rolls me, looking at the life sheet I did nothing to him and the only damage he took was from fetching once.

Bring in Sword of Feast and Famine, Nihil Spellbomb, and 2x Perish. Take out Sword of Fire, one Bob, a Cabal therapy and another card I don't recall.

Game Two: I lead off with top and pass, he plays Deathrite Shaman. Many turns later we are both top decking and he has the punishing fire engine going, I spin my top end of his turn to find a wasteland for one of his groves. Next turn I find another wasteland for his second grove and then play a Deathrite Shaman, next turn I find Stoneforge into Feast and Famine followed by lingering souls and it was my game from there.

Bring in two surgicals take out two other cards.

Game three: Go down to six with my hand being four lands Liliana and Lingering souls. I draw literally all lands until the final two turns where I draw Top after he has already played Pithing needle naming Top and then abrupt decay when it was too late.

1-1

Round 3: Mono-White Stax

Game One: I win the roll and keep my seven. I play land go, and he plays Mox Diamond into City of Traitors into Trinisphere. Luckily I have a bunch of three drops in my hand so it didn't really effect my game plan. I play a land and pass and he plays ghostly prison and passes back. I cast lingering souls and pass turn, he plays another Mox Diamond and passes back. I then hit turn four and get to play Hero of Bladehold, which I heard is pretty good against Ghostly Prison. I get to swing for 9 with Hero and a soul token. He then O-rings my hero and passes back. I then play sword of fire and ice and equip, from there I swung two more times and won.

Brought in 3x Duress and 1x O-ring. Took out 3x Inquisiton and 1x Jitte.

Game Two: He starts off with land into Mox diamond and passes turn. He doesn't play anything else the rest of the game and I win. I was able to vindicate his mox diamond and then waste his Savannah then next turn.

2-1

Round 4: UWR Miracles

These games went on for almost the whole round and were very fun but I forgot most of the details. I will come back and add to this section later on when I can review my notes. I won in three games.

3-1

Top 8: Bant Maverick

Game One: I was the top seed so I got to choose to be on the play. I keep my seven and he mulligans, I start off with Deathrite Shaman and he plays Noble Heirarch. I then play turn two Liliana and have him sac his noble and I pass turn. He plays another noble and passes back. I tic up Liliana and then play a turn three Hero of Bladehold and he wasn't able to beat that.

Brought in 2x Perish and 1x Feast and Famine. Took out 1x Sword of Fire and Ice, 1x Liliana and something else I can't remember.

Game Two: I mull down to six and keep a hand with turn three perish. He leads off with noble and passes, I play a land and pass back. He plays and land and then cast a Knight of the Reliquary. I play a second land and pass back, he plays another noble and cracks a fetch land and swings for 5 and passes back. I play my third land and cast perish and from there he is out of gas and I just beat down with Lingering souls and Batterskull.

4-1


Sorry if this tournament report kind of sucked, it is my first one and I play on writing better notes from my games. Let me know what you guys think of my list.

[Valech]

Twas a nice report. Currently I´m just curious about the Miracle Game in round four.

I´m also thinking to move my playlist a little bit closer to what you are playing at the moment. How is a single Bayou with two Death and Decays?

[Raistlin Majere]

Thank you, I will add more to that game later either today or tomorrow. The one Bayou can get annoying against wasteland decks, because you don't want to fetch it up until you need it and sometime you only get one use from it. The four DRS really help with the lack of green mana though.

[JanoschEausH]

Sorry if this tournament report kind of sucked, it is my first one and I play on writing better notes from my games. Let me know what you guys think of my list.

I really like your decklist! It's similiar to what i tested as a GBw-controlish-build. I also like you tournament report! Always nice reading detailed reports!

A few things i noticed:

1. Boarding: Against fair decks i would always board out discard (Inquisitions first, then Cabal) and bring in hate or more gas. I would never ever board out a bob (bob wins games!!!!)
2. Sideboard: I would add more graveyard hate (like RIP or Relic of Progenitus) - i have ~5 pieces in my sideboard which proved to be good over several tournaments.
Also drop the duress's for other combo hate (permanent based against storm, you have enought point-discard). I would suggest a 2nd Ethersworn canonist. 1-off Thalia seems strange to me. I suggest Gaddock Teeg (functions as storm hate, SnT hate and Miracles hate)
Which brings me to Show and Tell. If its nonexistent in you meta ignore the following: Play at least 1x Karakas in your 60! Discard is not enough in that matchup (with Hero as your only clock you need resilient hate!) If you dont want to be a bye for that deck you should be packing 1-2 Oblivion Rings maindeck in my opinion. They can be backed up by other hate from the sideboard G2 and G3 (like Pithing Needle or Humility (which is also awesome against Jund btw.)) Diabolic Edict is super situational - i would drop it for the said hate.
3. Maindeck: Not much i can say (besides the O-Rings). I really like your maindeck. The only thing i would suggest is playing a 2nd green source (like Savannah or Bayou). And maybe cut the Sword of Fire and Ice for a second Jitte. You could also cut it completely to get more slots.

I hope i could inspire you! Keep up the good work! This deck is awesome :)

[Valech]

How is Gaddock Teeg SnT hate? Would be really interested cause I´m planning to get a pair.

[Zeph]

How is Gaddock Teeg SnT hate? Would be really interested cause I´m planning to get a pair.

I think he's only for sneak attack, as far as I can see. And once it goes to board if they bring in leylines but don't get it in their opening hand it just ends up being a dead card.

I think against snt having a karakas in the main + humility is really going to help. They basically don't get to draw their deck with humility online but they can still take an extra turn with a 1/1 lol. The only issue is having to wait till T4 (or 3 with drs) to get humilty online.

[Raistlin Majere]

I really like your decklist! It's similiar to what i tested as a GBw-controlish-build. I also like you tournament report! Always nice reading detailed reports!

A few things i noticed:

1. Boarding: Against fair decks i would always board out discard (Inquisitions first, then Cabal) and bring in hate or more gas. I would never ever board out a bob (bob wins games!!!!)

That's very fair, I just started playing this deck two weeks ago so I wasn't too sure of how to board. Thanks for the advice.


2. Sideboard: I would add more graveyard hate (like RIP or Relic of Progenitus) - i have ~5 pieces in my sideboard which proved to be good over several tournaments.
Also drop the duress's for other combo hate (permanent based against storm, you have enought point-discard). I would suggest a 2nd Ethersworn canonist. 1-off Thalia seems strange to me. I suggest Gaddock Teeg (functions as storm hate, SnT hate and Miracles hate)
Which brings me to Show and Tell. If its nonexistent in you meta ignore the following: Play at least 1x Karakas in your 60! Discard is not enough in that matchup (with Hero as your only clock you need resilient hate!) If you dont want to be a bye for that deck you should be packing 1-2 Oblivion Rings maindeck in my opinion. They can be backed up by other hate from the sideboard G2 and G3 (like Pithing Needle or Humility (which is also awesome against Jund btw.)) Diabolic Edict is super situational - i would drop it for the said hate.

I have the duress's because there is a lot of combo in my local meta and it also really helps against the control match up. Something I didn't say in the tournment report is against miracles I boarded in my duress and took out inquisition and game 3 hit his singleton moat which ended up winning me the game. If I had thoughtsieze I would totally agree with you. The Thalia is there because I didn't have a second canonist and my friend didn't have any extra to let me borrow. I will have to try out a couple of O-rings, what should I take out though?


3. Maindeck: Not much i can say (besides the O-Rings). I really like your maindeck. The only thing i would suggest is playing a 2nd green source (like Savannah or Bayou). And maybe cut the Sword of Fire and Ice for a second Jitte. You could also cut it completely to get more slots.

I agree with you about a second green source, I'll probably add a second Bayou. I really like the sword of fire and ice, it races and gives me card advantage and also does a lot of what Jitte does while giving me extra cards.

Thank you for your advice and feedback, I really like playing this deck and hope to continue to do well with it.

[carnifex]

Hey everyone. On Saturday (April 20th) I went to a WMCQ event in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. The WMCQ main event was, of course, standard, but there was a substantive side-event in legacy that ended up with 67 players competing for a foil JTMS / Mox Sapphire, and for some revised duals to the other top 8 players.

I took this list to a 3rd place finish, finishing with a 6-2 record:

Hey everyone. Today I went to a WMCQ event in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. The WMCQ main event was, of course, standard, but there was a substantive side-event in legacy that ended up with 67 players competing for a foil JTMS / Mox Sapphire, and for some revised duals to the other top 8 players.

I took this list to a 3rd place finish, finishing with a 6-2 record:

Deck
Lands - 22:
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Scrubland
2 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Karakas

Creatures - 12:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Deathrite Shaman

Instants / Sorceries - 15:

4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Lingering Souls
Artifacts / Enchantments - 4:

1 Sylvan Library
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Planeswalkers - 5:

4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
Sideboard:

3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Extirpate
1 Life from the Loam
2 Rest in Peace
1 Humility
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Engineered Plague
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Pithing Needle

Overall I was very satisfied with the list. Everything in the board worked as planned although I don't think I ever sided Ethersworn Canonist. Still, it does its duty in the right settings (High Tide and T.E.S were present) and I wouldn't leave home without one.

Here is my report:


Round 1 - RUG Delver:

He wins the die roll and begins with telling me that he was not well experienced in the legacy circuit. I take this with a grain of salt since people will undersell themselves even when they don't need to, for strategic reasons or just to keep themselves humble. In any case, he does not seem to draw much in the way of counterspells and my removal pings off all of his delvers; liliana takes care of his mongoose and I never see a goyf. Batterskull rides to victory.

Game 2 is essentially the same, him on the play yet again with no daze backup, and I wasteland him out of the game with plenty of gas and a late jitte on a spirit token to clock him.

2-0.


Round 2 - RUG Delver:

Another RUG delver player, more experienced (clearly), wins the die roll and somehow manages to get smashed by hymns and lilianas in the same fashion. Game 2 proceeds the same way, with me managing to stick a rest in peace to shrink his goyfs and mongeese into oblivion.

2-0.

Round 3 - Sneak & Show:

Game 1 he wins the die roll and wrecks me. Not knowing what he is playing, I keep a hand with all 3x abrupt decay, figuring it will be stellar or awful depending on the match-up. Turns out it's awful.

Game 2 I mulligan to 4, having sided in a bunch of hate (all my e-tutors, ensnaring bridge, o-ring, humility, etcetera) and see none of it. I keep at 4 with a stoneforge mystic, LFTL, and 2x bayou, fully expecting to lose but not willing to go to 3 cards. I proceed to topdeck thoughtseize, hymn to tourach, karakas, and eventually the e-tutor to lock him out the game. He tells me he had not sided in echoing truths because he didn't know what my hate was going to look like.

Game 3 I keep a more respectable hand and eventually grind him out with a humility, o-ring, and batterskull after taking some beats from his vendillion clique.

2-1.

Round 4 - BUG Control:

Game 1 he does what my deck does but with brainstorms and a jace resolved. Game over.
Game 2 he does the same thing. Wrecked.

0-2.

Round 5 - Infect Stompy:

Game 1 I keep and double-hymn him. He sticks a blighted agent but I have already put all of his pumps in the graveyard and he scoops after I waste his only colored land and STP his agent.

Game 2 I board in a very unimpressive 2 e-tutors and 1 engineered plague, figuring that elspeth is too slow, sylvan library is too slow, and sensei's top is too slow. The engineered plague is just supposed to be a really bad 1-for-1 with whatever 1-toughness infect guy he may drop, and I know it's going to be a rough game. He gets me to 9 poison quickly with 2 glistener elves and then loses to my top-deck engineered plague naming elf, unable to push through the last damage. He is understandably frustrated after he concedes, and tells me that the matchup is very much in his favour. I am not so convinced.

2-0.

Round 6 - Goblins:

Both of us are in the 4-1 bracket, fighting for a lock to top 8. Turns out we couldn't go 4-1-1 to lock in so we had to play it out. I am confident about the matchup and win the die roll, keeping him off gas with multiple lilianas in game 1. He never really gets there and a jitte seals the deal.

Game 2 I side out all my hymns and a few other slow cards, bringing in all the good hate from the board. Humility, engineered plague, ensnaring bridge, and jitte all smash him and he loses handily in a grindy game that I never really lose control over despite him having multiple vials and a ringleader drop in mid-game. Two very timely STPs keep me out of lethal range and I stabilize in the aforementioned way.

2-0

Round 7 - Dredge:

First round of top 8. I stick a turn 1 deathrite and exile the only dredger (stinkweed imp) that he is able to land in his yard off of putrid imp. The game goes slowly, me feeling semi-confident on deathrite's back. I grab a jitte and try to stabilize against a few bridge-tokens left behind by ichorids but he eventually rips what he needs and dread returns griselbrand into play. I scoop it up.

Game 2 I board in everything except ethersworn canonist, life from the loam, oblivion ring, and COP: Red. My keep is the nuts and I rest in peace with e-tutor backup to grab the second one. A later extirpate assures victory even though he never manages to keep me off of my rest in peace.

Game 3 I do the same drill, getting everything I need to stop him from playing solitaire.

2-0.

Round 8 - RUG Delver:

This rug delver player is decidedly more skilled with the deck. He also happens to rip the dream opener of double mongoose with counter backup. A third mongoose followed by a topdeck goyf finishes me off brutally.

Game 2 is a grindy game that I eventually win with rest in peace in play and the necessary batterskull clock. He never manages to ancient grudge me.

Game 3 is a close game that I struggle to keep hold of, thoughtseizing a goose out of his hand first turn and keeping him threat light for a while via removal. . At one point I extirpate myself off of liliana to shrink a goyf that is going to put me within bolt range, and manage to use the shuffle off of extirpate to fish for the STP and exile the goyf (using sensei's top), keeping myself at 4. A final mongoose shows up, beats me to one, and he brainstorms + ponders to dig into the necessary burn. We shake hands.

All in all, a great time. The RUG player in the top 8 goes on to win the tournament. I leave with a mint revised underground sea and a NM / SP revised savannah as prizes.

[Tao]

Nice report. Gratz.

Why did you side in Extirpate against RUG Delver in the last round? Seems like a bad card in that matchup.

[Raistlin Majere]

Nice report. Gratz.

Why did you side in Extirpate against RUG Delver in the last round? Seems like a bad card in that matchup.

Because if you can go turn one blacksource into turn two wasteland their Tropical Island and then extirpate it they have to beat you without any green mana.

[JanoschEausH]

Because if you can go turn one blacksource into turn two wasteland their Tropical Island and then extirpate it they have to beat you without any green mana.

Thats why a lot of RUG players have started splashing a singleton Taiga or Breeding Pool into their lists. (At least in my meta.)

[carnifex]

Extirpate can be good in more situations than those mentioned (although the ideal does involve extirpating an essential land). Extirpating nimble mongoose is among the better plays. Hitting opposing wastelands is also good. Further, hitting ancient grudge had the potential to be relevant.

In addition, it shrinks yards (marginal) and felt better as a daze-proof early play (when I was on the draw) than something bad for my tempo like hymn to tourach. The wisdom of extirpate's inclusion is, of course, questionable, but it felt right having a few handy.

[Tokugawa]

Just finished 4th in a 20+person LGS tournament. Won a Belcher deck in quarterfinal, and lost to mirror in semifinal. Some thoughts:

Against RUG delver decks, Deathrite shaman is our hero. He crushed opponenet's daze-wasteland(-stifle) system single-handly.

And extirpate is an effective sb choice against RUG delver. I have extirpate a tropical island at turn2, and directly won. Surgical extraction, however, is less reliable.

Jund is a fairly hard matchup. In fact all the aggro decks which is backed with many "Burn" spells would bring problem to us...but since Zoo fell out of the radar, Jund is the typical example.

Sculler is not popular in MD ,but in sb he may be better than extra discard spells. Opponent cannot misdirection or spellpirece the effect,and cannot flashback that disabled card.

[evilGod]

I've been running B/W since Delver was printed, and I've never had any trouble with Delver outside of their god hands. Only lost 2 matches and drawn one due to my own misplay. I'm sure Deathrite helps, but he's not necessary to win this matchup.

I'm surprised Jund's giving you trouble. The matchup seemed very winnable, and the Jund primer lists our deck among it's worst matchups. Similar game plans, but we've got better removal in StP, resilance to discard in Souls, and generally a better manabase.

[Tokugawa]

I've been running B/W since Delver was printed, and I've never had any trouble with Delver outside of their god hands. Only lost 2 matches and drawn one due to my own misplay. I'm sure Deathrite helps, but he's not necessary to win this matchup.

I'm surprised Jund's giving you trouble. The matchup seemed very winnable, and the Jund primer lists our deck among it's worst matchups. Similar game plans, but we've got better removal in StP, resilance to discard in Souls, and generally a better manabase.

Print of Lingering souls in DKA has already improve the matchup, but it and lili are both 3cc spells, our deck were still vulnerable to mana disruption kits at that time.

[Tokugawa]

My Personal View on Leyline of Sanctity. IMHO, it's a great sideboard card if you are a combo deck....less so for us. Unless your meta is full of Burn and Belcher I wouldn't use Leyline of Sanctity.

Leyline is great for combo decks to help protect from the first/second turn Thoughtseize and then going off. We don't have that luxury. Secondly, you need at least 3 Leylines in the board....and that means more damage from Bob. Taking 4 for Hero or Elspeth is fine because it could win you the game.....taking 4 to help prolong the game with Leyline....I would say it's not worth it.

Agree with you. Even against this 2 decks mentioned, Leyline of Sanctity is not effective.

Belcher deck typically has 11 win-condition, 4 belcher + 4 wish + 3 EtW. Althrough the deck is called "belcher", belcher only has about 36%(even less than that, since blecher need 4+3 =7 mana to work, wish+EtW need 6, EtW casted from hand need 4) apperance in a successful "Blah!".They would mostly win from goblins. Zealous Persecution is more effective.

And if we really need to consider Burn, ring of protection + tutor is the best answer,along with any lifegain cards. To resist Griselbrand, many burn decks have been tweaked to have 3~4 Sulfuric Vortex. I can't see Leyline of Sanctity do anything about this.

[Rizso]

I do have a crazy idee and direction for the deck im gonna test out when my Blood Scriveners arrives to me. Plan involves Death's Shadow as well. Been wanting to play with gitaxian Probe with Cabal Therapy for a while but havent had a real reason to have them in the deck. But with Blood Scrivener you draw 2 cards for 3 lifes and no mana wich is pretty damn good. As the deck is gonna have so much life payment Death's Shadow is gonna be quite reliable large creature. Playing Death's Shadow also allows for Orzhov Charm. While the idee is wild imo I have to try it out.

[beez]

I love your sideboard, I have a deck similar to Deadguy that has a board almost exactly like that. I actually maindeck all four tutors and fetch a bitterblossom asap. Let us know how that board does for you in different situations.


I just started playing this deck last week and was able to get Top 4 this week at my local shop after going an abysmal 1-2 the week before. Just wanted to do a little tournament report and post my deck list to see what you all think.

Deck List:

Creatures:
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark confidant
3x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Hero of Bladehold

Instants:
4x Swords to plowshares
2x Abrupt Decay

Sorceries:
4x Lingering Souls
3x Inquistion of Kozilek
3x Cabal Therapy
1x Vindicate

Artifacts:
2x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Batterskull
1x Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice

Planeswalkers:
3x Liliana of the Veil

Lands:
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Marsh Flats
4x Scrubland
4x Wasteland
1x Bayou
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Swamp
2x Plains

Sideboard:
3x Duress
2x Perish
2x Zealous Persecution
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Ethersworn Cannoist
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Diabolic Edict

Round 1: Team Italia

Game one: I win the roll and keep a pretty slow hand of four lands, lingering souls, jitte, and Liliana. I never got going in this game but his Bob deals him 13 damage through the game and I am able to flashback a lingering souls and cast a deathrite once he is at two from Bob triggers and fetching and he scoops.

I don't know this match up at all and only bring in Nihil Spellbomb and Oblivion Ring, forgot what I took out.

Game two: I take a good hand with Hero and Deathrite Shaman and some other cards, I play turn one Shaman and pass. He swords my shaman and passes back, I play Bob and pass turn he plays Grim Lavamancer and passes back. Reveal a land off of Bob and draw my second Hero of Bladehold, I play a land and pass back to him. He shoots my Bob with lavamancer and then takes a Stoneforge out of my hand with an Inquisition. I draw Sword of Fire and Ice for the turn and just start slamming bombs at this point because he has one card in hand. I play Hero and pass, he top decks Liliana and make me sac, I play my second Hero and pass, he swords to plowshares it and passes. I slam Sword of Fire and Ice and he finally doesn't have an answer, he floods out and can't deal with my lingering souls tokens after I kill his Lavamancer.

1-0

Round 2: Punishing Jund

Game one: I'll make this one short and sweet, I get nothing going and he steam rolls me, looking at the life sheet I did nothing to him and the only damage he took was from fetching once.

Bring in Sword of Feast and Famine, Nihil Spellbomb, and 2x Perish. Take out Sword of Fire, one Bob, a Cabal therapy and another card I don't recall.

Game Two: I lead off with top and pass, he plays Deathrite Shaman. Many turns later we are both top decking and he has the punishing fire engine going, I spin my top end of his turn to find a wasteland for one of his groves. Next turn I find another wasteland for his second grove and then play a Deathrite Shaman, next turn I find Stoneforge into Feast and Famine followed by lingering souls and it was my game from there.

Bring in two surgicals take out two other cards.

Game three: Go down to six with my hand being four lands Liliana and Lingering souls. I draw literally all lands until the final two turns where I draw Top after he has already played Pithing needle naming Top and then abrupt decay when it was too late.

1-1

Round 3: Mono-White Stax

Game One: I win the roll and keep my seven. I play land go, and he plays Mox Diamond into City of Traitors into Trinisphere. Luckily I have a bunch of three drops in my hand so it didn't really effect my game plan. I play a land and pass and he plays ghostly prison and passes back. I cast lingering souls and pass turn, he plays another Mox Diamond and passes back. I then hit turn four and get to play Hero of Bladehold, which I heard is pretty good against Ghostly Prison. I get to swing for 9 with Hero and a soul token. He then O-rings my hero and passes back. I then play sword of fire and ice and equip, from there I swung two more times and won.

Brought in 3x Duress and 1x O-ring. Took out 3x Inquisiton and 1x Jitte.

Game Two: He starts off with land into Mox diamond and passes turn. He doesn't play anything else the rest of the game and I win. I was able to vindicate his mox diamond and then waste his Savannah then next turn.

2-1

Round 4: UWR Miracles

These games went on for almost the whole round and were very fun but I forgot most of the details. I will come back and add to this section later on when I can review my notes. I won in three games.

3-1

Top 8: Bant Maverick

Game One: I was the top seed so I got to choose to be on the play. I keep my seven and he mulligans, I start off with Deathrite Shaman and he plays Noble Heirarch. I then play turn two Liliana and have him sac his noble and I pass turn. He plays another noble and passes back. I tic up Liliana and then play a turn three Hero of Bladehold and he wasn't able to beat that.

Brought in 2x Perish and 1x Feast and Famine. Took out 1x Sword of Fire and Ice, 1x Liliana and something else I can't remember.

Game Two: I mull down to six and keep a hand with turn three perish. He leads off with noble and passes, I play a land and pass back. He plays and land and then cast a Knight of the Reliquary. I play a second land and pass back, he plays another noble and cracks a fetch land and swings for 5 and passes back. I play my third land and cast perish and from there he is out of gas and I just beat down with Lingering souls and Batterskull.

4-1


Sorry if this tournament report kind of sucked, it is my first one and I play on writing better notes from my games. Let me know what you guys think of my list.

[Tokugawa]

Huge rules change.

"Let's play 4 Liliana"

[Megadeus]

Just went 2-1 (SPlit top 8 because we wanted to go home) with my buddies copy of the deck.

G1 Modern Kiki Pod

I got massacred. That is all I can say. G1 I just died to the beats of persist dudes, restoration angels, and Murderous Red Caps. G2 He again got pod, but he topdecked well and got combo pieces and I died.

G2 UBw Tezzeret

Not much here either. G1 I drew a bunch off of confidant, and ligering souls brought the pain. DRS finished the job by dealing a bunch of damage. I did get to Ultimate Liliana splitting up his ensnaring bridge and Engineered Explosives from his lands. He died because he never got to actiuvate the EE.
G2 Hero of Blade hold brought the pain. After I played it he enlightened tutors for an ensnaring bridge. My turn I Vindicate the bridge and swing for a bunch.

G3 Mono Blue SnT
G1 I cast a SFM on T2 and kept a pretty bad hand of 5 lands, SFM and STP. He kills me with ETI on T3.
G2 I board in 3 Duress, 2 O RIngs, 2 Surgicals, 2 Silence (Testing it out), a Sword of FaF, and Ethersworn Canonist. Canonist keeps him off of multiple cantrips while therapies tear his hand to shreds. A surgical on Cunning Wish means he cant win so he scoops
G3 He keeps a double White Leyline no lander hand. My hand was like 2 Cabal Therapy, 2 Bobs, A Liliana, Duress and a single land. Uh Oh. Turns out he doesnt draw a land the whole game while I beat with bobs and a canonist.

Split Top 8 With Maverick.

Overall the deck was an interesting one to play. I always wanted to try it out. I would probably play 3 Ethersworn Canonist next time and drop the silences (though silencing my TES opponent after he cracks an LED sounds SWEET). Ive never been a fan of discard + surgical as a way to beat combo, but in this instance it actually did the job. Hero of Bladehold was alright. While it did swing for a bunch, I played a side game and just like in Standard it is still just god awful vs Jace.

[Valech]

Huge rules change.

"Let's play 4 Liliana"

Well, that means I´ll drop the second Jitte for Jitte wars^^

[Rizso]

Well, that means I´ll drop the second Jitte for Jitte wars^^

Probly means we need to putback the equipment killer equipment again. Jitte is such a insane card even with the legendary rule :P

But thats not the most power thing you can do with new legendary rule. Now you can Thespian's Stage and Dark Depths with the new legendary rule :P

[Tokugawa]

Probly means we need to putback the equipment killer equipment again. Jitte is such a insane card even with the legendary rule :P

But thats not the most power thing you can do with new legendary rule. Now you can Thespian's Stage and Dark Depths with the new legendary rule :P
Stage is even slower than Vampire Hexmage....and nobody plays Hexmage combo.

[Rizso]

Stage is even slower than Vampire Hexmage....and nobody plays Hexmage combo.

Uncountered at turn 3 with only lands if they dont have wasteland its bad luck!

Anyway lol :D Probly 4 lilianas in the deck.


Im very much for playing death's shadow with varolz atm.

[BlackPurple]

Here is my updated list

MD

2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abupt Decay

1 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Lingering Souls
3 Vindicate

1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Liliana of the Veil

2 Bayou
2 Plains
3 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland


Sideboard

1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Perish
2 Rest in Peace
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Extirpate
1 Serenity
1 Circle of Protection : Red
1 Ethersworn Canonist


If you have any comment, please let me know.
Even if my meta is pretty varied, BUG and RUG are very well represented and can give me some trouble.:mad:

[miko]

Here is my updated list

MD

2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abupt Decay

1 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Lingering Souls
3 Vindicate

1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Liliana of the Veil

2 Bayou
2 Plains
3 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland


Sideboard

1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Perish
2 Rest in Peace
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Extirpate
1 Serenity
1 Circle of Protection : Red
1 Ethersworn Canonist


If you have any comment, please let me know.
Even if my meta is pretty varied, BUG and RUG are very well represented and can give me some trouble.:mad:

Have you played in tournaments with your list yet? Which of the most popular decks do you like to play against, which not? Why do you think so?
I'm so very interested to keep this archetype alive. But since there are so many fast combo decks, we can only cross our fingers and hope to have good draws.

[BlackPurple]

I play this deck almost every week in tournaments for a while, and I can say that to perform with this list , skills and luck have to be present.

I have great results against Blade control, tribal, Jund, the Rock,.. but RUG, BUG, combo (as you said) can be really tough to deal with, often give me problems . (playing between counterspells, bolt, Jace, Brainstrom,... without playing blue can be hard)

But I love to play this deck, it's a lot of fun and I like every single card inside.

I like to play 3 Vindicate, Cabal and Thoughtseize against Jace, the gamestealer.:eyebrow:

[Zeph]

I play this deck almost every week in tournaments for a while, and I can say that to perform with this list , skills and luck have to be present.

I have great results against Blade control, tribal, Jund, the Rock,.. but RUG, BUG, combo (as you said) can be really tough to deal with, often give me problems . (playing between counterspells, bolt, Jace, Brainstrom,... without playing blue can be hard)

But I love to play this deck, it's a lot of fun and I like every single card inside.

I like to play 3 Vindicate, Cabal and Thoughtseize against Jace, the gamestealer.:eyebrow:

The best way for this deck to deal with JTMS IMO is lingering souls. Being evasive, but playing 3 vindicates almost guarantees that you'll draw it throughout the course of the game :P It does become a dead card though against combo...

I personally wouldn't play 3 vindicates though, cause that + LS + liliana and your elspeth, has that ever been too clunky?

I used to be an avid player of Dead Guy until I made the transition over to the Rock, but glad to hear that there's still people interested in developing this deck!

[Qweerios]

What does Deadguy have over The Rock if it doesn't pack cards that can abuse its stabler manabase? Isn't Hymn better for this deck since it complements Vindicate and Wasteland in the LD package? Seems to me that until you start packing cards that Rock cannot play smoothly, there is no point choosing Deadguy over it. Hymn, Elspeth, Mirran Crusader, Phyrexian Obliterator, and even Mishra's Factory are good examples of such cards.

[BlackPurple]

The best way for this deck to deal with JTMS IMO is lingering souls. Being evasive, but playing 3 vindicates almost guarantees that you'll draw it throughout the course of the game :P It does become a dead card though against combo...

I personally wouldn't play 3 vindicates though, cause that + LS + liliana and your elspeth, has that ever been too clunky?

I used to be an avid player of Dead Guy until I made the transition over to the Rock, but glad to hear that there's still people interested in developing this deck!


I agree with you, LS to beat Jace, but BUG players (in my meta) play Deathrite Shaman, Pernicious Deed (or even sometimes Darkblast for the most control version) main deck in addition to the counterspell pack, LS is starting to be less interesting ( i didn't say useless:tongue:).

You're right against combo, Vindicate does nothing (you can still target a land if he has mana problem:rolleyes:), like StP, Abrupt Decay, and half of the deck.:wink:

I know 3 Vindicate is maybe too much with Liliana and elspeth but I'm trying to find a way to play with that with Sensei's Divining Top.
I'm thinking of trying Hero of Blade... in the place of Elspeth, to see how that can work.

How's it going with The Rock?

[BlackPurple]

What does Deadguy have over The Rock if it doesn't pack cards that can abuse its stabler manabase? Isn't Hymn better for this deck since it complements Vindicate and Wasteland in the LD package? Seems to me that until you start packing cards that Rock cannot play smoothly, there is no point choosing Deadguy over it. Hymn, Elspeth, Mirran Crusader, Phyrexian Obliterator, and even Mishra's Factory are good examples of such cards.

That's a very pertinent comment. I can only agree with you.
When I look at the last big tournament lists, I see that the bordeline between DGA and The Rock or even Junk is thin.
I tried Hymn when I didn't have all bi-lands but now I have everything in the list , you make me want to try it again, will see. The big problem with Hymn or even discard spells in general, is in my meta 90% of the decks play Brainstrom or ponder, Jace... so they can rebuild their hand pretty quickly, compare to us.

Crusader seems a better card for sideboard though.

[Zeph]

Playing the Rock so far has been good, it's just a change from playing straight BW stoneblade haha.

You're right about a lot of cards being dead against combo MUs, but the list I used to play before played 4 targetted discard along with 4 hymns, AND 4 lilianas. Post board I was also able to bring in the ethersworn cannonists + surgical extractions to really mess them up.

I played against shardless bug and aggro/tempo bug a couple times with my dead guy deck and all I gotta say is that top goes a long way in that match up. It's also really important to hit their lands with the set of wastelands that you have. You can do really janky things like wasting their usea and then surigcal/extripate to cut them off of all u/b sources. Other play is that if they hide cards in response to the brainstorm, then you can surgical the 2 cards they put back away, assuming there's a card in the yard for you to take. Hymn also kills them if they don't have a counter for it and even though they can rebuild their hand again with bs/jace/ponder, it's never a bad thing to 2 for 1 them. In the shardless bug match, hymn is almost always going to hit 2 relevant cards against us (whether it's shardless/strix or jace). You should definitely try to put hymns in your deck if you have the proper duals. I won't say it'll turn the entire match up around because a big portion of it still relies on judgment but it's always good to take 2 threats out of their hand and get some "oops, I win" games.

My old list also used to run hero instead of elspeth, the main reason i opted for hero is because she's a faster clock, and that's something that this deck really needs. Our games tend to go long and having something that can deal 7 and then 9 is nothing to laugh at. Hero also dodges spell pierce if your meta is heavy on that, but then it just eats stps like a boss.

[miko]

I would at least play 3 Liliana and 4 Hymn to Tourach. As Qweerios said, if we want to play BW, we have to use the strongest cards of this color combination. Hymn and Liliana are (very) good in matchups which we do not want to play (e.g. combo). Vindicate - since we have Liliana as well as Abrupt Decay (at least 3 times!) - can be dropped. And as you say the difference of BW and The Rock is marginal because of Deathrite Shaman, who is the way to go at the very moment.
I would play:

Discard:
4 Thougthseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
(3-4 Liliana)

Removal:
4 Swords
3-4 Abrupt Decay
(3-4 Liliana)
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Library Manipulation:
2-3 Sensei's Divining Top

Core-Creatures:
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Lingering Souls

Lands:
2 Swamps
1 Plains
3-4 Scrublands
2 Bayou (not more - it's just a green split)
8-9 Saclands (very important to shuffle with Top on board and you can shuffle away Tops as well)
4 Wastelands

Perhaps we should play more basics.
Mirrian Crusader and Hero of Bladehold look interesting. We should give them a try.
What about Sword of Fire and Ice or other additional equipment?


And more interesting, what about the sideboard?

[Tokugawa]

I would at least play 3 Liliana and 4 Hymn to Tourach. As Qweerios said, if we want to play BW, we have to use the strongest cards of this color combination. Hymn and Liliana are (very) good in matchups which we do not want to play (e.g. combo). Vindicate - since we have Liliana as well as Abrupt Decay (at least 3 times!) - can be dropped. And as you say the difference of BW and The Rock is marginal because of Deathrite Shaman, who is the way to go at the very moment.
I would play:

Discard:
4 Thougthseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
(3-4 Liliana)

Removal:
4 Swords
3-4 Abrupt Decay
(3-4 Liliana)
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Library Manipulation:
2-3 Sensei's Divining Top

Core-Creatures:
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Lingering Souls

Lands:
2 Swamps
1 Plains
3-4 Scrublands
2 Bayou (not more - it's just a green split)
8-9 Saclands (very important to shuffle with Top on board and you can shuffle away Tops as well)
4 Wastelands

Perhaps we should play more basics.
Mirrian Crusader and Hero of Bladehold look interesting. We should give them a try.
What about Sword of Fire and Ice or other additional equipment?


And more interesting, what about the sideboard?
2 Bayou can NOT support 4 Decay. You can disagree with this conclution, and waste some time to test.

[Teluin]

2 Bayou can NOT support 4 Decay. You can disagree with this conclution, and waste some time to test.

Not to mention any green spells make this no longer Deadguy Ale.

[Wilkin]

Not to mention any green spells make this no longer Deadguy Ale.

I also don't like just 2 equipment in the deck. Granted, that list plays Top, but I would play one more equipment.

Since Deadguy doesn't win fast you could very well cast Stoneforge Mystic as a squire. That's really bad. I would definitely recommend Sword of Fire and Ice. Shock and draw is huge plus we play some sort of fliers and lots of removal to help push the equipped creature through.

Yeah, I've seen people put lists that have Knight of the Reliquary and Goyf. That's no longer deadguy IMHO at that point. It's junk or rock. A fine deck but it's not Deadguy.

[Valech]

Not to mention any green spells make this no longer Deadguy Ale.

I cannot agree with you. People tend to be against changes for the reason, "that that is not the old deck I used to know".

I don´t link deck names with colors but with playstyle. Deadguy Ale for example is a aggro-controle deck, strong in mid-range and against creature based decks. If splashing green serves this concept I am willing to do so and still call it DGA.

[Rizso]

Deadguy has always been a heavy discard deck with Wasteland and Dark Confidant to refil resources. Rock is more the midrange deck that has existed sense like tempest or so. with overall higher cc and mana acc. While modern has been on controlling the board with deed and creatures with resources tide to them sakura tribe elder, wall of blossom and baloths. Rock is a green based deck while deadguy is a blackbased deck.

Adding a couple of greenspells doesnt make the deadguy into rock.

[Teluin]

Adding a couple of greenspells doesnt make the deadguy into rock.

Doesn't make it Deadguy either though. Anyway, don't really want to debate this.

[Valech]

Doesn't make it Deadguy either though. Anyway, don't really want to debate this.

Well, you brought it up.

[Zeph]

I feel like that playing just BW for deadguy in a more grindy aggro control shell is not as effective as playing other BWx decks. I'm talking about playing esper stoneblade or the rock. I've been playing deadguy (just BW) for over a year now and it's still fun and solid as a deck, but I think that if you want play attrition-based games deadguy can only take you so far. In esper decks they have jaces and brainstorms to get their cards back, rock as sylvan library/tops and bobs. We have tops and bobs. I just think that they have more options at their disposal, but at the cost of having a shakier mana base.

In my opinion, if I were to play deadguy again, I would play the vial based decks. The deck that runs tidehollow sculler, phyrexian revoker, etc etc. I think that deck is absolutely bonkers because it's so much more aggressive and always pressures multiple threats each turn while destroying their hand/mana base as well. However, that deck is more volatile and can have those nut hands but also mulligans a lot worse. I think the only down side is that you don't get to play lingering souls :( that card is so good. If anyone has a recent vial-based deadguy list that they would like to share, that'd be great! I'd love to see what people have and what their SB is for that style of play.

[miko]

2 Bayou can NOT support 4 Decay. You can disagree with this conclution, and waste some time to test.

True. That is why I added Deathrite Shaman. Having 8-9 Saclands is good as well.

[Astrus]

Hello, I am new to Legacy and The Source. I just played Dead Guy with a green splash in my first competitive Legacy event over the weekend. I got crushed mostly due to my inexperience i believe, but here is my list. Any suggestions on cards or play methods would be more than appreciated. I should also mention that I am still on a relatively budget list.

Lands:
Bayou x1
Scrubland x2
Godless Shrine x1
Marsh Flats x4
Verdant Catacombs x4
Plains x1
Swamp x7
Wasteland x2

Creatures:
Deathrite Shaman x4
Dark Confidant x4
Stoneforge Mystic x4
Tidehollow Sculler x2
Hero of Bladehold x1

Instants and Sorceries:
Swords to Plowshares x4
Cabal Therapy x2
Inquisition of Kozilek x3
Hymn to Tourach x2
Abrupt decay x2
Lingering souls x3
Vindicate x1

Artifacts:
Umezawa's Jitte x1
Batterskull x1
Sword of Fire and Ice x1

Planeswalkers:
Liliana of the Veil x2
Sorin Lord of Innistrad x1


Sideboard:
Duress x1
Oblivion Ring x1
Cabal Therapy x2
Surgical Extraction x2
Perish x1
Engineered Plague x2
Enlightened Tutor x1
Zealous Persecution x1
Pithing Needle x1
Ensnaring Bridge x1
Rest in Peace x1
Relic of Progenitus x1

As I said, in my first tournament I got crushed. I got the by round one then proceeded to lose the next three rounds.

Round 1
By

Round 2: Miracles 0-2
I played against my friend who was playing UWr Miracles. Even though our games outside tournaments seem to go only about 40-60 in his favor I lost the first two games. The only notes that seemed relevant concerning these games were: "got Jaced." Usually if he sticks a Jace against me the game is over unless my board state can outrace unsummon. This is rare due to his accessibility to Terminus. My sideboard plan for game two(which went essentially the same way regardless) was:

Out: StP x4, Hero of Bladehold x1, DRS x2
In: Duress x1, Cabal Therapy x2, Pithing Needle x1, Enlightened Tutor x1, Surgical extraction x2

Round 3: Zombardments 0-2
He pretty much out raced, out removaled me, and in both games I ended up scooping once he landed his namesake enchantment. I cannot remember which game the most eventful plays occured but in one of the games I played a Tidehollow Sculler onto an empty board, he revealed Sculler, LS, and Bombardments. I took the Bombardments and proceeded to waste his only white source. He then top decked a fetch and then a swords to plowshares. One game I got myself two-for-oned because I forgot to play around the Cabal Therapy that he named SFM with. My sideboard plan for game two, which ended up being irrelevant for lacking of seeing any of the cards as well as not seeing any DRSs, went like this:

Out: Inquisition x3, Therapy x2, Hymn x2, Swamp -- Not sure if this is right, but discard seems bad against his deck so I went for it. The swamp is because I manage to flood myself frequently, which leads me to believe that I should cut a land.
In: RIP x1, E. Tutor, Engineered plague x2, Relic of Progenitus x1, Surgical x2, Zealous Persecution

Round 4: OmniTell 1-2
In game one and game three he was simply able to go off unopposed. Game two, which I managed to take, went how I expected a good game of DGA v. Combo to go. I cast hand disruption spells and killed him with Batterskull. The sideboard was something similar to:

Out: Sword of Fire and Ice x1, Jitte x1, SFM x1, StP x4,
In:Duress x1, Oblivion Ring x1, E. Tutor x1, Cabal Therapy x2, Surgical x2

The most disappointing part of the tournament was getting the by round one. I really enjoy Legacy thus far and just wanted to play, so missing out on round one was not ideal.

[Valech]

Hey Astrus,
just a few minor things.
Drop the Scullers. They are good, but not as exploitive as in the vial version. Add two Scrublands and a Bayou, drop the Godless Shrine. Add two Wastelands. Add at least 1 Liliana and decide between Sorin and Hero of Bladehold.

[Astrus]

Hey Astrus,
just a few minor things.
Drop the Scullers. They are good, but not as exploitive as in the vial version. Add two Scrublands and a Bayou, drop the Godless Shrine. Add two Wastelands. Add at least 1 Liliana and decide between Sorin and Hero of Bladehold.

That all sound right. I was having a hard time deciding about sculler. All the other things you mentioned I planned on changing with time (and money). I think I like Sorin better as control has a harder time with him than Hero. Hero is also awful vs. Jace decks. Would sticking a second Sorin in instead be good, or should I just cut that slot all together?

What do you think is a suitable/cheap temporary replacement for scullers?
Also do you think that the Vial version is better? (I may have access to vials)

[Rizso]

TBh just save up and get thoughtseizes nothing is as strong as them.

[Astrus]

TBh just save up and get thoughtseizes nothing is as strong as them.

Do you think that Hymn to Tourach would be alright temporarily Instead of Sculler?

[Zeph]

Hello, I am new to Legacy and The Source. I just played Dead Guy with a green splash in my first competitive Legacy event over the weekend. I got crushed mostly due to my inexperience i believe, but here is my list. Any suggestions on cards or play methods would be more than appreciated. I should also mention that I am still on a relatively budget list.

Lands:
Bayou x1
Scrubland x2
Godless Shrine x1
Marsh Flats x4
Verdant Catacombs x4
Plains x1
Swamp x7
Wasteland x2

Creatures:
Deathrite Shaman x4
Dark Confidant x4
Stoneforge Mystic x4
Tidehollow Sculler x2
Hero of Bladehold x1

Instants and Sorceries:
Swords to Plowshares x4
Cabal Therapy x2
Inquisition of Kozilek x3
Hymn to Tourach x2
Abrupt decay x2
Lingering souls x3
Vindicate x1

Artifacts:
Umezawa's Jitte x1
Batterskull x1
Sword of Fire and Ice x1

Planeswalkers:
Liliana of the Veil x2
Sorin Lord of Innistrad x1


Sideboard:
Duress x1
Oblivion Ring x1
Cabal Therapy x2
Surgical Extraction x2
Perish x1
Engineered Plague x2
Enlightened Tutor x1
Zealous Persecution x1
Pithing Needle x1
Ensnaring Bridge x1
Rest in Peace x1
Relic of Progenitus x1

As I said, in my first tournament I got crushed. I got the by round one then proceeded to lose the next three rounds.

Round 1
By

Round 2: Miracles 0-2
I played against my friend who was playing UWr Miracles. Even though our games outside tournaments seem to go only about 40-60 in his favor I lost the first two games. The only notes that seemed relevant concerning these games were: "got Jaced." Usually if he sticks a Jace against me the game is over unless my board state can outrace unsummon. This is rare due to his accessibility to Terminus. My sideboard plan for game two(which went essentially the same way regardless) was:

Out: StP x4, Hero of Bladehold x1, DRS x2
In: Duress x1, Cabal Therapy x2, Pithing Needle x1, Enlightened Tutor x1, Surgical extraction x2

Round 3: Zombardments 0-2
He pretty much out raced, out removaled me, and in both games I ended up scooping once he landed his namesake enchantment. I cannot remember which game the most eventful plays occured but in one of the games I played a Tidehollow Sculler onto an empty board, he revealed Sculler, LS, and Bombardments. I took the Bombardments and proceeded to waste his only white source. He then top decked a fetch and then a swords to plowshares. One game I got myself two-for-oned because I forgot to play around the Cabal Therapy that he named SFM with. My sideboard plan for game two, which ended up being irrelevant for lacking of seeing any of the cards as well as not seeing any DRSs, went like this:

Out: Inquisition x3, Therapy x2, Hymn x2, Swamp -- Not sure if this is right, but discard seems bad against his deck so I went for it. The swamp is because I manage to flood myself frequently, which leads me to believe that I should cut a land.
In: RIP x1, E. Tutor, Engineered plague x2, Relic of Progenitus x1, Surgical x2, Zealous Persecution

Round 4: OmniTell 1-2
In game one and game three he was simply able to go off unopposed. Game two, which I managed to take, went how I expected a good game of DGA v. Combo to go. I cast hand disruption spells and killed him with Batterskull. The sideboard was something similar to:

Out: Sword of Fire and Ice x1, Jitte x1, SFM x1, StP x4,
In:Duress x1, Oblivion Ring x1, E. Tutor x1, Cabal Therapy x2, Surgical x2

The most disappointing part of the tournament was getting the by round one. I really enjoy Legacy thus far and just wanted to play, so missing out on round one was not ideal.

It's okay if you didn't do well this tournament, everyone has to start somewhere!

My initial suggestions to your deck list would be to cut down on the number of swamps you have and play at least 2 plains if you can. Also try to get wastelands as your main priority because they are just so good against any deck. You can still play the BW shockland if you're on a budget because most of the time it won't matter, unless you're playing against hyper aggressive decks. I would also add another GB shock (or bayou, if you have one :P) so that you dont have -close-to-dead- abrupt decays once they waste your only bayou.

The creature list you have is pretty solid, but if you're going to play tidehollow sculler I would first recommend you switch over to the vial verison as stated above, or if you want to play him but don't want to play vials at least play a set of it. Personally though I would just cut the 2 scullers in place of 2 more hymn to tourachs. Hymns are so powerful and everyone seems to underestimate this card, but always getting 2 for 1 is a good deal! I think that having 5 targeted discard and then 4 hymns along with 2 lilianas should be pretty good at keeping opponent's hands to a minimum. I'd like to make a note that if you're relatively new to playing legacy, it's pretty hard to get blind therapies accurately so I would either complete the set of inquisitions, or get thoughtseizes. I think that Sorin is more a SB card than being in the main 60, so I would put him in the SB. With that slot freed up you can replace that with either another vindicate or liliana.

As for your SB, I would definitely replace the duress with another enlightened tutor so that you can fetch for your key enchantments more frequently if you need them. Also since you already have 2 more therapies in the board I think having 8 targeted discard is too much, when you have hymns and lilianas. I would also try to get humility and ethersworn cannonist in the board if you are going for the e-tutor package because they are very relevant cards in combo match ups (humilty for snt, ethersworn for TES, ANT, SI, etc)

In the miracles match up, I would've brought in the oblivion ring for sure because they don't really have an answer to that if it resolves. You can use it to get Jace and ends up being one less to worry about. Post board miracles will generally side out most of their counterspells so bringing in the oring definitely helps. Your board doesn't have too much dedicated to any controlling/grindy match ups so I would suggest putting in another sorin in the board if you can make it fit!

Your boarding for zombardment was 100% correct, taking out the discard is generally what you want to do because most of the time they will get value out of it. I would've taken out the hymns instead of cabals so that I can at least try to blind cabal their stps or bombardment instead of randomly discarding a gravecrawler and bloodghast :( Obviously the etutor will be rip most of the time because that basically neuters the entire deck, but I guess you weren't lucky enough to get either of them. This match up shouldn't be too hard because we have lots of ways to win against them. rip kills them, plagues kill them, active jitte stops them, batterskull makes the game out of reach for them.

The Omnitell match up is very strange because it's either they have it or they don't. Bringing in all the discard seems correct while taking out the obvious dead cards. Liliana is a boss in this match up, she just annihilates the opponent like no other.

That's all I got for now, if you have any questions or discussions lemme know! Hope this feedback helps!

[Zeph]

Oh and here's my list for reference if you need it :) I've moved on to playing the rock but I still have all the cards to assemble this deck if need be haha.

Lands:

2x Bayou
4x Marsh Flats
1x Plains
4x Scrubland
2x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
1x Karakas
22

Creatures:

4x Dark Confidant
4x Deathrite Shaman
3x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Hero of Bladehold
13

Planeswalkers:

4x Liliana of the Veil
4

Spells:

3x Thoughtseize
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Inquisiton of Kozilek
1x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Lingering Souls
2x Vindicate
1x Batterskull
2x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Hymn to Tourach
21

SB:

2x Abrupt Decay
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Perish
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Pithing Needle
1x Rest in Peace
2x Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1x Engineered Plague
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Humility
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
15

[Astrus]

It's okay if you didn't do well this tournament, everyone has to start somewhere!

My initial suggestions to your deck list would be to cut down on the number of swamps you have and play at least 2 plains if you can. Also try to get wastelands as your main priority because they are just so good against any deck. You can still play the BW shockland if you're on a budget because most of the time it won't matter, unless you're playing against hyper aggressive decks. I would also add another GB shock (or bayou, if you have one :P) so that you dont have -close-to-dead- abrupt decays once they waste your only bayou.

The creature list you have is pretty solid, but if you're going to play tidehollow sculler I would first recommend you switch over to the vial verison as stated above, or if you want to play him but don't want to play vials at least play a set of it. Personally though I would just cut the 2 scullers in place of 2 more hymn to tourachs. Hymns are so powerful and everyone seems to underestimate this card, but always getting 2 for 1 is a good deal! I think that having 5 targeted discard and then 4 hymns along with 2 lilianas should be pretty good at keeping opponent's hands to a minimum. I'd like to make a note that if you're relatively new to playing legacy, it's pretty hard to get blind therapies accurately so I would either complete the set of inquisitions, or get thoughtseizes. I think that Sorin is more a SB card than being in the main 60, so I would put him in the SB. With that slot freed up you can replace that with either another vindicate or liliana.

As for your SB, I would definitely replace the duress with another enlightened tutor so that you can fetch for your key enchantments more frequently if you need them. Also since you already have 2 more therapies in the board I think having 8 targeted discard is too much, when you have hymns and lilianas.


In the miracles match up, I would've brought in the oblivion ring for sure because they don't really have an answer to that if it resolves. You can use it to get Jace and ends up being one less to worry about. Post board miracles will generally side out most of their counterspells so bringing in the oring definitely helps. Your board doesn't have too much dedicated to any controlling/grindy match ups so I would suggest putting in another sorin in the board if you can make it fit!

Your boarding for zombardment was 100% correct, taking out the discard is generally what you want to do because most of the time they will get value out of it. I would've taken out the hymns instead of cabals so that I can at least try to blind cabal their stps or bombardment instead of randomly discarding a gravecrawler and bloodghast :( Obviously the etutor will be rip most of the time because that basically neuters the entire deck, but I guess you weren't lucky enough to get either of them. This match up shouldn't be too hard because we have lots of ways to win against them. rip kills them, plagues kill them, active jitte stops them, batterskull makes the game out of reach for them.

The Omnitell match up is very strange because it's either they have it or they don't. Bringing in all the discard seems correct while taking out the obvious dead cards. Liliana is a boss in this match up, she just annihilates the opponent like no other.

That's all I got for now, if you have any questions or discussions lemme know! Hope this feedback helps!


I have gotten screwed by having two plains fairly frequently, but I will test some more with one. Picking up and Overgrown Tomb, Sorin, and E Tutor should be do-able before The next Tournament I'm going to. I will switch in the Hymns for Scullers and regarding the therapies, I plan on practicing with them over the next month. I almost cut them because I also was not sure I was ready for them. I will put the 4th Inquisition in if i still don't feel the therapies by the next tournament.

Thanks for the in-depth reply. It helped a ton!

[Rizso]

Do you think that Hymn to Tourach would be alright temporarily Instead of Sculler?

Ye they are fine but Thoughtseize and cabal therapy is in an other league of hymn atm. You want to he specific card not random, not pun inteded.

Lingering souls makes Cabal Therapy so much better then it was before lingering souls was in the deck. And Sorin is more then fine in the deck it has won me many games. The emblems do quite a bit when all our creatures are just 2/1 and 1/2 or 1/1 fliers. :P I do like sorin and hero split. Sorin is easier to cast then hero.

[nedleeds]

What does Deadguy have over The Rock if it doesn't pack cards that can abuse its stabler manabase? Isn't Hymn better for this deck since it complements Vindicate and Wasteland in the LD package? Seems to me that until you start packing cards that Rock cannot play smoothly, there is no point choosing Deadguy over it. Hymn, Elspeth, Mirran Crusader, Phyrexian Obliterator, and even Mishra's Factory are good examples of such cards.

This. Everyone splashing green isn't playing Deadguy. Seriously, how fucking hard is this to figure out.

The advantages of B/w or W/b or even B/W over 3-colors are as follows

- No graveyard reliance allowing you to play the best yard hoser ever printed in Rest in Peace (or others like Relic)
- 2 color mana base means you can run 4+ basics making the deck almost Wasteland proof. It also gives space to run utility lands that can't be run in a 3-color configuration -- at least that can't be run without biting you in the ass during a 9 round tourney
- BB WW ... point two means if you want you can run spells requiring BB and WW and probably get away with it if you ratio properly and carefully fetch. The only other decks that can do this are the decks running 4 brainstorm to cheat potential mulligans into keeps and to see a higher ratio of lands compared to the actual number in the deck
- Hosers. 2 color allows you to run one sided Wrath of God in Perish / Nature's Ruin.

This isn't to say you can't run Deathrite shaman as even if you sharpie over his nug a man ability he's still pretty insane.

You can debate whether the constraints are worth these benefits but how hard do you have to look / research / think to really see the benefits?

[Astrus]

Riszo- I am working on Thoughtseizes and 2 more Wastelands next
Thanks for the input on Sorin v. Hero

Zeph- Do you not like Abrupt Decay even though you are splashing green?

[Rizso]

Riszo- I am working on Thoughtseizes and 2 more Wastelands next
Thanks for the input on Sorin v. Hero

Zeph- Do you not like Abrupt Decay even though you are splashing green?

I would say if playing Abrupt as well i would have a second bayou, many matchups where you want abrupt Decay got their own wastelands, RUG, bug and many blade variants. But the matchups where you really need to to use the exile a creature with deathrite dont really play wastelands, dredge reanimator, so bit safer to just play 1 bayou there. Playing horizon canopy might also work, not tried it out yet thought.

The higher number of fetchlands increases the wasteland protection but makes stifle more threatening. But stifle is something I would rather be weak against as its pretty bad against rest of the deck tbh.

[Zeph]

I would say if playing Abrupt as well i would have a second bayou, many matchups where you want abrupt Decay got their own wastelands, RUG, bug and many blade variants. But the matchups where you really need to to use the exile a creature with deathrite dont really play wastelands, dredge reanimator, so bit safer to just play 1 bayou there. Playing horizon canopy might also work, not tried it out yet thought.

The higher number of fetchlands increases the wasteland protection but makes stifle more threatening. But stifle is something I would rather be weak against as its pretty bad against rest of the deck tbh.

To reply to Astrus: I do like abrupt decay and I think it's very good (hence I have 2 in the sb) but I don't think it warrants md slots because they are harder to cast even with the 2 bayous + drs. I totally agree that abrupt decay is strong in match ups where you need the extra bayou, so the important thing is to keep your drs alive.

Also, don't play horizon canopy, the card is a pile.

[Astrus]

Okay, I was also wondering if Bob or SFM was typically the a better second turn play. I know it probably depends on the match up, but some insight would be handy. =)

[Zeph]

Okay, I was also wondering if Bob or SFM was typically the a better second turn play. I know it probably depends on the match up, but some insight would be handy. =)

It really depends on the MU, but in most cases I would play t2 sfm instead of bob. The only time I would play t2 bob is if I had t1 discard to see their hand, making sure they have no removal. Another case i would play bob first is if i know i'm playing against a deck that doesn't interact with our deck (aka combo). Even then it's still a hard decision because playing sfm means you'll have a fast clock starting t4 (might already be too slow against combo), but at least with a t2 bob you'll have a steady stream of cards.

The reason I would opt to play sfm first is because she'll fetch us an equipment and then probably eat removal via stp or decay or bolt/pfire. If they don're removal her than that's also fine cause then we'll cheat in batterskull have start ramming in for 4 a turn. I believe that bob and drs are the best cards in the deck and they are the ones that will win you the game. If they snap kill the sfm then that's one less removal you have to worry about for bob. Bob is also the main source of CA in this deck so it's critical for him to stay alive as opposed to any other creatures in this deck.

[Rizso]

I would play stoneforge everytime on turn if their hand is unknown.
Stoneforge is way more expendable the bob. Early unkilled bob wins games.

[Astrus]

Where does Hymn come in on turn two priority? I know it is probably top against combo.

[Zeph]

Where does Hymn come in on turn two priority? I know it is probably top against combo.

For me, I always play hymns as early as possible. That's when you can potentially deal the most damage to them. As you probably know the later hymns are the less effective they are. So you want to cast them on turn if you have sfm or bob in your hand.

[Wilkin]

For me, I always play hymns as early as possible. That's when you can potentially deal the most damage to them. As you probably know the later hymns are the less effective they are. So you want to cast them on turn if you have sfm or bob in your hand.

Yep, totally agree.

I still play Chrome Mox, hoping to live the dream by casting Hymn To Tourach first turn. If it hits you could mana screw your opponent which is devastating. Fortunately, people don't play Divert and only a few people play Misdirection...

The only time I remember having the choice of casting Bob or Hymn first and going with Bob was against BUG cascade. I cast Bob turn one with a Mox. The reasoning was if it wasn't Forced, Bob would live for a while since I had 2 wastelands in hand, against a deck that didn't likely have a 1 mana removal card.

[uncletiggy]

people play divert more so now then ever as an answer to abrupt decay and in probably more sideboards then misdirection... still rare and in no way a reason not to run out hymn as early as possible, but still a relevant card worth keeping in mind Vs anything playing a delver.

[Raistlin Majere]

Just a bit curious but how many of you are playing Hymn in your builds now? I do not play Hymn at all, instead I run 2 IoK, 3 Cabal Therapies, 2 Liliana of the Veil and 3 Tidehollow Scullers.

[Valech]

I am currently running three Hymns due to the sudden rise of combo decks in my meta. But considering how devestating Hymns can be against all decks, I don´t think I will cut them anywhere soon, even if the combo decks vanish again. I played Tidehollow Sculler before and found them strong, but underperforming without vials.

[Wilkin]

Went 4-2-1 at the Toronto PTQ legacy side event (the standard ptq had 367 players.) wow. Legacy had 27 or so. lol.

Finished in the top 4 and got a Force of Will for my trouble. My main is the same as it always is.


Round 1. Tin Fins. 2-1. I see Underground sea and Ponder.....so I think Storm? So I cast Hymn to Tourach on him and he discards Griselbrand. LOL, well it's still technically a Storm deck just not the one I was thinking. Games 2 and 3, I side in 11 or 12 cards. I hate Sneak show and I hate GY decks so a deck like Tin fins gets double the hate. Games 2 and 3, I cast Rest in Peace both games.

Round 2. Merfolk. 2-0. First turn Mystic (via Chrome Mox) gets me Fire and ice. He plays Island and Vial. I had Batterskull in hand so yeah....6/6 beats. Game 2 he has a Cursecatcher, Lord of Atlantis and 2 vials. I have Enginereed Explosives to 3 for 1 him. I also had a turn 2 Bob out that didn't die and flipped 4 lands. Another thing to note, he sides in Surgicals and Relics of Progenitus against me. I told him after that's really bad since I don't rely on GY, he mentions he could waste a land and extract it....but I think that play is too cute....I think he sided out 4 merfolk for those cards.

Round 3. Nic Fit. 1-0...he had a game loss after deck check. I didn't even know he was nic fit until I made him discard Primeval Titan. All I saw at that point were Jund Lands and Scavenging Ooze. I had a Shriekmaw out with SOFI on it to swing through his Thrun. GG.

Round 4. UR Landstill. Lose 2-0. Bolts, Spell Snare, Snapcaster, Standstill. All so annoying. I've only beaten this deck as a Deadguy deck once...it was an Aether Vial version.

Round 5. ID.

Round 6. 2-0 vs Esperblade. First Turn Mystic again into Batterskull. He keeps a one lander Brainstorm hand. He casts his Mystic for a Jitte but I therapy it away...seeing 2 more mystic. LOL, yeah those guys didn't stay in his land for very long. Game 2. He's mana screwed again and Hero of Bladehold and a few Lingering Soul tokens end the game.

Round 7. UR Landstill.....again. 0-2. Boo-urns.


-Still love the Chrome Mox (i play 2). Being able to Hymn, cast Bob or Mystic etc. is really good.
-I probably play too much GY hate but it got the job done vs Tin Fins.
-Don't really have anything for Nic Fit or UR landstill but luckily those aren't played by too many people.
-Experimented with a singleton Enlightened Tutor...didn't see it although it was only sided in against Tin Fins.
-Even though I didn't get to Kill an Emrakul with him, Shriekmaw was pretty good. People give me strange looks when they see that card and wonder why I don't play Terror/Go for the Throat etc.. Well...
-Early game it's a Sorcery Terror. Helps the mana curve for that IMO as after Swords to Plowshares my next removal cards cost 3 (Vindicate and Liliana of the Veil)
-Late game it's a 2 for 1 187 creature that has evasion.
-I have lived the dream vs Sneak/show and got to kill Emrakul when they Show and Tell.
-I still play 4 Vindicate. It was alright blowing up Grove of the Burnwillows and some Merfolk and mana screwing Tin Fins in games 2 and 3.

[Sunday Funday]

Went 4-2-1 at the Toronto PTQ legacy side event (the standard ptq had 367 players.) wow. Legacy had 27 or so. lol. This got me confused little bit. 27 players but 7 rounds? Then I realized by round 6 you mean top 8 and round 7 top 4.


Round 1. Tin Fins. 2-1. I see Underground sea and Ponder.....so I think Storm? So I cast Hymn to Tourach on him and he discards Griselbrand. LOL, well it's still technically a Storm deck just not the one I was thinking I lol'd.


Games 2 and 3, I side in 11 or 12 cards. lol, typical Wilkin


I hate Sneak show.... Why? what did I ever do to you?! lol



Even though I didn't get to Kill an Emrakul with him, Shriekmaw was pretty good. People give me strange looks when they see that card and wonder why I don't play Terror/Go for the Throat etc I'm one of those people.

You need to write a report on your janky 3-combo-in-one deck!

[Wilkin]

This got me confused little bit. 27 players but 7 rounds? Then I realized by round 6 you mean top 8 and round 7 top 4.

I lol'd.

lol, typical Wilkin

Why? what did I ever do to you?! lol


I'm one of those people.

You need to write a report on your janky 3-combo-in-one deck!

Oh the janky combo deck I played at Worlds Collide. It was just 2 combos in one deck, not 3. I did consider having a third combo in the board, but I figured that was too janky even for me. Just went with one-two punch of Painter Grindstone and then Thopter Foundry/Sword of the Meek.

Yeah, Shriekmaw is a fringe card but when it kills an Emrakul it's heaven. :D And yeah it was fun siding in almost my entire sideboard vs Tin Fins. I hate GY shenanigans and I hate Sneak/show so that deck got double the hate.

Sure, I won't only write a report (only played 4 actual matches though) but probably start a new Developmental deck too.

[Wilkin]

I know a few of you guys have tried Nevermore in the sideboard. How do you guys find it? I'm thinking of using it against Show and Tell decks, well mostly against the Omnitell ones, I have a decent match vs the Sneak show decks. Hoping they print a WW meddling mage at some point.

[Valech]

I tried Nevermore for SnT variants but I found it bad. The true "unfair" situations against SnT are when they are able to bring in down T3. Unless you had the start or played a DRS earlier, it´s the same turn as you could play Nevermore. Too often it happened, that I had Nevermore in my opening hand but was simply a turn to late. I found Ethersworn great against Omniwhatevs decks.

[raikenxy]

after quite some time i've finally got the cards for this deck put together and am ready to start taking it out to locals for testing

Creatures (18)

4 Deathtrite
4 thalia
4 Confidant
3 Stoneforge
3 mirran crusader

Spells (16)

4 swords to plowshares
2 oblivion ring
3 Inquisition of kozileck
2 cabal therapy
2 lingering souls
3 Liliana of the Veil

Artifacts (4)

1 batterskull
1 jitte
2 chrome mox

Lands (22)

4 scrubland
1 bayou
4 marsh flats
3 verdant catacombs
2 plains
3 swamp
4 wasteland
1 godless shrine

Sideboard

3 pithing needle
4 rest in peace
2 surgical extractions
1 vindicate
2 zealous persecution
3 Empty slots


some quick notes, I have oblivion rings maindeck because sneak and show is very prevelant aroud here and i often see it at my local game store, i've found the maindeck oblivion rings to be very useful in the vindicate slot, especially since i've moved thalia to the maindeck when i originally planned on her being in the board. chrome mox to accelerate our 2 drop to turn one is self explanatory. 22 lands seems about right with main deck thalia, i've tried with 21 and 20 lands before and felt myself often relying on confidant to dig for lands. 22 seems t be working fine.

anyway, my questions for the thread is what should i put in the empty three slots in the board, and if anyone can give me some tips on playing against maverick, junk and esper it would be greatly appreciated

[Sughayyer]

after quite some time i've finally got the cards for this deck put together and am ready to start taking it out to locals for testing

Creatures (18)

4 Deathtrite
4 thalia
4 Confidant
3 Stoneforge
3 mirran crusader

Spells (16)

4 swords to plowshares
2 oblivion ring
3 Inquisition of kozileck
2 cabal therapy
2 lingering souls
3 Liliana of the Veil

Artifacts (4)

1 batterskull
1 jitte
2 chrome mox

Lands (22)

4 scrubland
1 bayou
4 marsh flats
3 verdant catacombs
2 plains
3 swamp
4 wasteland
1 godless shrine

Sideboard

3 pithing needle
4 rest in peace
2 surgical extractions
1 vindicate
2 zealous persecution
3 Empty slots


some quick notes, I have oblivion rings maindeck because sneak and show is very prevelant aroud here and i often see it at my local game store, i've found the maindeck oblivion rings to be very useful in the vindicate slot, especially since i've moved thalia to the maindeck when i originally planned on her being in the board. chrome mox to accelerate our 2 drop to turn one is self explanatory. 22 lands seems about right with main deck thalia, i've tried with 21 and 20 lands before and felt myself often relying on confidant to dig for lands. 22 seems t be working fine.

anyway, my questions for the thread is what should i put in the empty three slots in the board, and if anyone can give me some tips on playing against maverick, junk and esper it would be greatly appreciated

Why the miser vindicate on the board? Might as well be another o-ring and maximize your chances against show&tell decks. zealous is a beast against maverick, consider adding another one.
Junk is a deck that can be built in so many different ways that is hard to give tips, but they usually pack fewer creatures and you can try adding more removal, discarding key cards from their hands that might disrupt your plan, etc
Esper also has a lot of builds. Esperblade? BWU control? Deathblade? Miracles with B? Each one works differently. Deathblade is like Junk, but with jace. Esperblade usually has lingering souls, but those are usually nullified by your zealous persecutions.

Another thing: imho, chrome mox is not needed with deathrite shaman around. Might try replacing for something like bitterblossom, for example? (they give you an edge against controllish decks).

[Wilkin]

Why the miser vindicate on the board? Might as well be another o-ring and maximize your chances against show&tell decks. zealous is a beast against maverick, consider adding another one.
Junk is a deck that can be built in so many different ways that is hard to give tips, but they usually pack fewer creatures and you can try adding more removal, discarding key cards from their hands that might disrupt your plan, etc
Esper also has a lot of builds. Esperblade? BWU control? Deathblade? Miracles with B? Each one works differently. Deathblade is like Junk, but with jace. Esperblade usually has lingering souls, but those are usually nullified by your zealous persecutions.

Another thing: imho, chrome mox is not needed with deathrite shaman around. Might try replacing for something like bitterblossom, for example? (they give you an edge against controllish decks).

I actually don't mind having 2 chrome mox in his build. There's no turn 1 Hymn to Tourach but there is turn 1 Thalia. I did that once to a Storm deck....i won that game. lol. And of course, there's also the turn 1 Bob or Mystic.

As for the sideboard....i Dunno. Depends on what your meta is. You did mention Show and Tell. Is it the Sneak attack kind or the Omnitell? As the other poster mentioned, another Oblivion Ring may help. Not only for Emrakul but as a way to get rid of Leyline of Sanctity. Persecution is awesome, I would also suggest Perish. Hurts Maverick and affects Junk.

And I would take out a Plains for a Karakas. It's a miser with no way to tutor for but it's there. I haven't regretted adding a Karakas in the main and one in the board.

As for tips..... against Esperblade...I always name with Therapy stuff that gives CA. Usually I name Snapcaster Mage. Stoneforge Mystic 2nd. Therapy is awesome in this matchup IMO. They don't puke out their hand like say Affinity and when Mystic gets something you have a turn usually to Therapy it away. It's a grindy grindy matchup. I would maybe (sideboard) suggest another Persecution to win the Lingering Soul wars and an Elspeth, Knight-Errant. She's great at killing Jace, the Mind Sculptor.

[blindspotxxx]

This list seems very interesting



Creatures [23]
3 Mirran Crusader
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

Instants [6]
2 Disfigure
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sorceries [6]
2 Vindicate
4 Thoughtseize

Artifacts [3]
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte


Lands [22]
1 Bayou
1 Karakas
1 Swamp
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Plains
2 Windswept Heath
3 Scrubland
3 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Marsh Flats

1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Blind Obedience
2 Duress
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Perish
1 Pithing Needle
3 Rest in Peace
2 Zealous Persecution

It seems to have all of the must kill good stuff for your opponent although i'd like to tweak something's like vindicate and the disfigure for maybe some abrupt decays?

[Zeph]

This list seems very interesting



Creatures [23]
3 Mirran Crusader
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

Instants [6]
2 Disfigure
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sorceries [6]
2 Vindicate
4 Thoughtseize

Artifacts [3]
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte


Lands [22]
1 Bayou
1 Karakas
1 Swamp
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Plains
2 Windswept Heath
3 Scrubland
3 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Marsh Flats

1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Blind Obedience
2 Duress
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Perish
1 Pithing Needle
3 Rest in Peace
2 Zealous Persecution

It seems to have all of the must kill good stuff for your opponent although i'd like to tweak something's like vindicate and the disfigure for maybe some abrupt decays?

You could probably add abrupt decays in, or imo you could just drop those for aether vials. Then this deck would be more aggro... Also I would recommend playing Sword of Light and Shadow over SoFI (or at least have SoLS in the board) cause you run 23 creatures so it's bound to be able to recur something.

This list just looks like B/W DnT without vials and ports tbh, still cool though!

[Valech]

This list seems very interesting



Creatures [23]
3 Mirran Crusader
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

Instants [6]
2 Disfigure
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sorceries [6]
2 Vindicate
4 Thoughtseize

Artifacts [3]
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte


Lands [22]
1 Bayou
1 Karakas
1 Swamp
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Plains
2 Windswept Heath
3 Scrubland
3 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Marsh Flats

1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Blind Obedience
2 Duress
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Perish
1 Pithing Needle
3 Rest in Peace
2 Zealous Persecution

It seems to have all of the must kill good stuff for your opponent although i'd like to tweak something's like vindicate and the disfigure for maybe some abrupt decays?

In such a creature heavy build Vials would be golden. You could consider to drop the Crusaders and add Tidehollow Scullers and/or Serra Avengers. There was plenty of discussion regarding such builds a couple of pages before. It plays diffrent then the DGA decks I like to play, but it certainly is viable. Dropping Thalia to 3 might also be worth a thought. Also, I don´t like Disfigures. If I feel like I need more creature removal I´d either run PtE, Darkblasts, Geth´s Verdicts or Chainer´s Edicts SB.

[blindspotxxx]

I'm pretty sure the deck creator knows about Aether Vials but really the list is too tight. So -2 Disfigure and -2 Vindicate for 4 Aether Vials?

The deck already has 4 Cavern of Souls

[Valech]

I'm pretty sure the deck creator knows about Aether Vials but really the list is too tight. So -2 Disfigure and -2 Vindicate for 4 Aether Vials?

The deck already has 4 Cavern of Souls


You dont need the vials for making creatures uncounterable - that´s only a nice side effect. It´s useful for unfair plays like serra vaenger turn 2 or tidehollow sculler in resp to drawstep.

[uncletiggy]

not to nit pick but you can't play serra avenger off vial till turn three... even then she's outclassed by other options at this point bob, tidehollow, thalia or stoneforge are all better options once vial hit's two.

[Valech]

Yes, these are better options. I was just making examples. Regarding Serra Avenger you are wrong. She cannot be CAST within the first, second or third turn. But she can be brought into game by other means.

Edit: Oh, I got what you mean. Misunderstanding from my side. Yes, not until turn three. Still one turn earlier then hardcasting.

[necrowil]

Most of the decks listed seem along the lines of Death and Taxes. Pikula’s deck was more monoblack with white in it. You guys have gone monowhite with black in it. Pilula started 10 discard spells, Specter, Shade, Scroll, no Swords to Plowshares even Sinkhole and Vindicate and 25 land. He only had 6 cards with White starting in the deck and 2 more in the sideboard. Later he said he would have put two more Swords in the sideboard. Wow. Obviously the field has changed since then, but I find myself asking would Pikula play any deck even close to what this thread has become here? I seriously doubt it. I think the 10 discard spells are definitely a defining characteristic of the deck backed up by 4 Hypnotic Specter, that’s 14 plus wasteland and Sinkhole and Verdict that’s 22 disruptive elements starting. Why? Read his report. Here is a quote from the article.

Pikula: “…my first instinct was to build a deck that had the following cards:

Dark Confidant
Hypnotic Specter
Hymn to Tourach
Duress
Sinkhole
Wasteland

That was the core of my plan. I was also pretty certain the deck should contain Dark Ritual.” He also talks about the cards have dual roles like Specter is discard AND a threat.

With that in mind I built the following:
4 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
4 ghost quarter
4 marsh flats
4 wasteland
4 scrubland
2 swamp
1 plains
4 dark ritual
4 hymn to tourach
3 hatred
3 liliana of the veil
3 umezawa's jitte
4 deathrite shaman
4 tidehollow sculler
4 dark confidant
4 hypnotic specter
4 vampire nighthawk

I’m pretty sure Pikula would include Shaman as it has multiple roles and is consistent with his theme. Sculler also falls under the same lines. Nighthawk is somewhat but is nice with Hatred which is a personal choice. Ghost Quarter replaces Sinkhole and has some additional purposes. And I’m pretty sure Liliana would be in his build somewhere if not the sideboard. Jitte obviously has multiple purposes as well. So if you count Quarter, Hymn, Sculler, Wasteland and Specter that’s 20 disruptive elements or 23 with Liliana. Anyway, take it for what its worth but that’s my two cents. And more along the lines I would think this thread should become. It’s a black deck that splashes white. Not the other way around. I definitely would like to see what a thread like that would look like. I have definitely have been testing Mother or Runes, Stoneforge Mystic and Batterskull along with Swords main and it definitely changes what the deck was intended to do. For one its no where near as disruptive and aggressive which is a major drawback. Just my two cents.

[Valech]

You aware, that decks develop and Pikula actually said that years ago? options have changed massively. To pick cards like Specter and leaving out Stoneforge mystics is... nostalgic at best. And you are wrong about what´s the core of a deck: It´s not the ratio between black and white. It´s the way it is played. DGA is a midrange aggro-controle deck with many early disruptions and a quite stable manabase due to being twocolored. These two colors happen to be Black and White. Find the best options of those colors to fit the deckplan. Don´t integrate cards "because white should only be a splash because someone said so years ago".

No offence, but it always gets me startled when someone steps miles back, not to grasp the concept but to replace recently made development with nowadays unuseable cards.

[evilGod]

Stoneforge Mystic is basically the best thing to happen to this deck ever, and that includes Liliana. Turn 3 Batterskull seems more than aggressive enough for me, and Hatred just feels like I'm asking my opponent to 2-for-1 me. (3-for-1 if you ritual into it).

The deck has evolved to be efficient above all else. StoP is the most efficient removal, Bob is CA and a beater, as is Mystic. If you want to splash W in a B deck, take a look at The Gate and work from there, but there's no way you'll get those of us who have played these cards is this meta to run Hatred, Hippie, or drop Mystic without some amazing top 8 showings.

[Wilkin]

Stoneforge Mystic is basically the best thing to happen to this deck ever, and that includes Liliana. Turn 3 Batterskull seems more than aggressive enough for me, and Hatred just feels like I'm asking my opponent to 2-for-1 me. (3-for-1 if you ritual into it).

The deck has evolved to be efficient above all else. StoP is the most efficient removal, Bob is CA and a beater, as is Mystic. If you want to splash W in a B deck, take a look at The Gate and work from there, but there's no way you'll get those of us who have played these cards is this meta to run Hatred, Hippie, or drop Mystic without some amazing top 8 showings.

Agree for sure.

I am nostalgic towards Hypnotic Specter since I started playing around 1995 and Dark Ritual/Hypie first turn was pretty sick. But it's 2013 and Specter is outclassed. Hatred is another card that used to see tons of play but it too is no longer viable.

Yeah Stoneforge and Liliana both really make Deadguy so efficient. Mystic gives Batterskull and other equipment...which is so vital since most of the creatures in deadguy are tiny. Tokens aren't that scary unless one of them is holding a Jitte. Liliana really made the deck so deadly. A 3 mana planeswalker that is disruption and removal at the same time. Many time I have cast her turn 2 or 3 and it's GG.

I honestly can't see a deadguy version without Stoneforge. I could see a version without Liliana if you are going with an Aether vial/Thalia gameplan.

[raikenxy]

anyone have any tips for playing against shardless bug, game one i always feel like it's fifty/fifty with thalia and mirran crusader but games two and three have been impossible for me lately

[Wilkin]

anyone have any tips for playing against shardless bug, game one i always feel like it's fifty/fifty with thalia and mirran crusader but games two and three have been impossible for me lately

I generally do alright against that deck, although I do see why it can be a tough matchup. I usually side in Engineered Explosives and maybe Rest in Peace vs them. Perish is also a good one. Since they have so much card draw I take out my Hymns but leave in the Thoughtseize and therapies.

Basically, you try and side in cards that are 2 for 1's. Hm.....I'd figure Mirran Crusader would be deadly vs them since most of the creatures are green and most of their removal doesn't affect Crusader.

If your meta is full of this deck....perhaps something like Imp's Mischief? It's a wacky thought I know. You can redirect their Abrupt Decay to kill one of their dudes or living the dream would be to Imp's Mischief the Ancestral Visions to target you.....lol, you draw 3 and take no damage since the CMC of visions is 0.

[Mirrislegend]

I brewed up what I feel is a good list. But I have one point where I'm certain. I'd like some input:

3 LSouls, 1 Mirran Crusader and 1 SB LSouls
or
4 LSouls and something else in the SB

Thoughts?

[Sughayyer]

I brewed up what I feel is a good list. But I have one point where I'm certain. I'd like some input:

3 LSouls, 1 Mirran Crusader and 1 SB LSouls
or
4 LSouls and something else in the SB

Thoughts?

A single mirran crusader on the main deck won't do you much good - you are losing a more consistent lingering souls and gaining a total uncertainity about crusader.
But show what else you've got for your main deck.

[Mirrislegend]

I intend to take this to an event on Saturday:

4 Deathrite
4 Confidant
4 Stoneforge
3 Lingering Souls
1 Mirran Crusader

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Liliana of the Veil

3 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Hymn to Tourach

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of War and Peace

1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
4 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath (should be 2)
3 Verdant Catacombs (should be 2)

SB:
3 Zealous Persecution
3 Thalia
3 Teeg
1 Lingering Souls
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Disfigure

Yea, Sword of War and Peace is very unusual. But back when I often played Stoneforge in Legacy, one of my biggest issues was closing the game promptly. SoWaP provides a significant clock in a small package. SoFI always sucked for me. I'm considering SoLaS or SoFaF for evasion purposes, but their abilities are either sub par or less relevant in this deck..

[Sughayyer]

@Mirri

You are so comitted on green that you might as well be playing the rock. It has goyf and knight :p

Anyway, I would remove the single mirran crusader, the single hymn to tourach and one land (you are running 23... I ran a similar list on 21 comfortably, try 22).
This will make room for cabal therapy which is a good addition to your list. I also don't agree on the RW sword over the UR, but then it's just me. I personally like drawing more cards and distributing shocks.
Why the maelstrom pulse on the side? If you're afraid of tokens, zealous will do. You could use o-rings - they remove the same permanents that pulse, and also work very well against show & tell.
I also don't understand disfigure. You got 7 removal spells + jitte, plus board swipers from the side.

Of course, I am arbitrarily saying stuff here... what do you expect to find at the tournament?

[Mirrislegend]

@Mirri

You are so comitted on green that you might as well be playing the rock. It has goyf and knight :p

Anyway, I would remove the single mirran crusader, the single hymn to tourach and one land (you are running 23... I ran a similar list on 21 comfortably, try 22).
This will make room for cabal therapy which is a good addition to your list. I also don't agree on the RW sword over the UR, but then it's just me. I personally like drawing more cards and distributing shocks.
Why the maelstrom pulse on the side? If you're afraid of tokens, zealous will do. You could use o-rings - they remove the same permanents that pulse, and also work very well against show & tell.
I also don't understand disfigure. You got 7 removal spells + jitte, plus board swipers from the side.

Of course, I am arbitrarily saying stuff here... what do you expect to find at the tournament?

I WAS playing Rock. But KotR is not the brick house that she once was (Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman really pulled the rug out from under her feet). And once you trim her, the only really mighty thing you get from green (that this deck doesn't have) is Goyf. And many many decks have proven that Goyf isn't necessary.

Yea, I'm concerned about the land count. I could probably trim one. But 23 allows me to Wasteland with abandon and tends to pad my hand with excess lands for opposing Hymns and Lilianas on both sides of the table and I can still hardcast Batterskull (or double LSouls around graveyard hate) after. Between Confidant and Top, I can probably keep from getting flooded. More testing is definitely needed on that aspect.

Without the 4th LSouls, I don't think I can abuse Cabal Therapy properly. Maybe -1 Inquisition, +1 Therapy

I doubt I can find a SoWaP for the event, so it'll probably be SoFI. ::Shrug::

Pulse is for Jace mostly :mad: and his damn angel tokens. This deck probably has a much better matchup against raw control than ye-olde Rock deck did, so these SHOULD be O-Rings. Thanks for pointing that out.

Disfigure is because I HATE spending StPs and Decays on Deathrite. Yet so many matchups ride on Deathrite! Also, Disfigure kills every single creature (excepting Geist and Goyf, obviously) in the best recent creature decks: Deathblade, BUG, and Death and Taxes (Also Jund!).

[Teluin]

Disfigure is because I HATE spending StPs and Decays on Deathrite. Yet so many matchups ride on Deathrite! Also, Disfigure kills every single creature (excepting Geist and Goyf, obviously) in the best recent creature decks: Deathblade, BUG, and Death and Taxes (Also Jund!).

MD RiP. It hoses a lot of cards/decks. Tarmogoyf, DRS, Mongoose, Snapcaster, etc etc.

[Mirrislegend]

MD RiP. It hoses a lot of cards/decks. Tarmogoyf, DRS, Mongoose, Snapcaster, etc etc.

I brewed a version of this deck a long time ago that had MD RIP. Losing Lingering Souls was not worth it :(

[Sughayyer]

Mirri, swap pulses for o-rings. Those will help out show & tell shenanigans.
Nevertheless, the misers hymn and crusader are doing you no good at all.
There was a time when I was playing this deck, I used to run bitterblossom main deck (maybe that's where I got more value at the therapies), as well as an ajani.
Another thing you might want to try is a 2-of (or maybe 3) hero of bladehold. It DOES make jund and most bug decks cry.

Also, I disagree on your opinion about knight. I'm still playing it and it seldom lets me down.

[Megadeus]

Mirri, swap pulses for o-rings. Those will help out show & tell shenanigans.
Nevertheless, the misers hymn and crusader are doing you no good at all.
There was a time when I was playing this deck, I used to run bitterblossom main deck (maybe that's where I got more value at the therapies), as well as an ajani.
Another thing you might want to try is a 2-of (or maybe 3) hero of bladehold. It DOES make jund and most bug decks cry.

Also, I disagree on your opinion about knight. I'm still playing it and it seldom lets me down.

Hero of Bladehold is a hell of a card in this deck. The only issue is opposing Goyfs easily getting bigger and blocking her, but overall she is a great threat, and with a weapon like Sword of FaI or FaF she is almost unstoppable. Being Decay and Bolt prrof is just icing.

[Mirrislegend]

In the past, Hero was not great for me. But I am worried about Jund and it seems like a fantastic answer. It fills the role that I had for Crusader (clock). I am loathe to cut the miser's Hymn; I'll decide last minute. My list for the event will now be:

4 Deathrite
4 Confidant
4 Stoneforge
3 Lingering Souls
1 (2) Hero of Bladehold

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Liliana of the Veil

3 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1(0) Hymn to Tourach

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of War and Peace

1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
4 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath (should be 2)
3 Verdant Catacombs (should be 2)

SB:
3 Zealous Persecution
3 Thalia
3 Teeg
1 Lingering Souls
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Disfigure

Quick sideboarding question: I can't quite remember, do I keep LSouls in or board LSouls out against Jund? Punishing Fires technically trumps Spirit tokens, but it takes quite a lot of time and resources (which is what LSouls is often about). However, LSouls does make Maelstrom Pulse better, and they'll definitely board that in against us.

[Sughayyer]

In the past, Hero was not great for me. But I am worried about Jund and it seems like a fantastic answer. It fills the role that I had for Crusader (clock). I am loathe to cut the miser's Hymn; I'll decide last minute. My list for the event will now be:

4 Deathrite
4 Confidant
4 Stoneforge
3 Lingering Souls
1 (2) Hero of Bladehold

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Liliana of the Veil

3 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1(0) Hymn to Tourach

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of War and Peace

1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
4 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath (should be 2)
3 Verdant Catacombs (should be 2)

SB:
3 Zealous Persecution
3 Thalia
3 Teeg
1 Lingering Souls
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Disfigure

Quick sideboarding question: I can't quite remember, do I keep LSouls in or board LSouls out against Jund? Punishing Fires technically trumps Spirit tokens, but it takes quite a lot of time and resources (which is what LSouls is often about). However, LSouls does make Maelstrom Pulse better, and they'll definitely board that in against us.

When I paly against jund I keep souls. Thay'll have to deal with shaman and souls. There's a limited number of times they can p. fire you in a turn unless they have a shitton of mana, and you are forcing them to make many decisions (because they must remove every creature you cast, since they all trump their gameplan).
Also jund players usually keep liliana after board, and that is good for you (it's the first card you side out against souls decks).

Now about your sideboard... why the last lingering souls? And also, since you really want to bring disfigures, can I suggest taking 1 disfigure and 1 souls and adding, say, one edict and another kind of black removal? When you face an Iona for white before you get to play liliana you'll understand what I mean.

AH one thing I forgot! Red decks like rug, ur delver, goblins and black decks like to bring things like sulfur elemental, dread of night, night of souls betrayal, etc. For that reason I used to keep 2 intangible virtue when I played with more tokens. I'm just throwing this info 'cause it might be helpful.

[Wilkin]

In the past, Hero was not great for me. But I am worried about Jund and it seems like a fantastic answer. It fills the role that I had for Crusader (clock). I am loathe to cut the miser's Hymn; I'll decide last minute. My list for the event will now be:

4 Deathrite
4 Confidant
4 Stoneforge
3 Lingering Souls
1 (2) Hero of Bladehold

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Liliana of the Veil

3 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1(0) Hymn to Tourach

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of War and Peace

1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
4 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath (should be 2)
3 Verdant Catacombs (should be 2)

SB:
3 Zealous Persecution
3 Thalia
3 Teeg
1 Lingering Souls
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Disfigure

Quick sideboarding question: I can't quite remember, do I keep LSouls in or board LSouls out against Jund? Punishing Fires technically trumps Spirit tokens, but it takes quite a lot of time and resources (which is what LSouls is often about). However, LSouls does make Maelstrom Pulse better, and they'll definitely board that in against us.

Fine list. How do you find War and Peace? I've never played it in Legacy.... Do you use it to protect against Swords and Bolt? I've found Sword of Fire and Ice to be awesome, better than any other equipment not named Jitte or Batterskull, at least for Deadguy (feast and famine is better for decks with Countermagic). And the reason is the amount of removal in typical Deadguy lists. I play so much removal and Lingering Souls that it isn't too hard to connect with SOFI.
Since you play Souls, I would recommend a Cabal Therapy or 2 main.

A souls in the board could be something else IMO. And aside from the Shamans you don't have much Graveyard hate. Against Jund, I've found Engineered Explosives to be ok and Rest in Peace to be really good.

[Rizso]

Currently tweeking a death's shadow version of the deck atm. It isnt going so fast atm to much work XD. But trying out Ranger of Eos as 1 so far its been quite awesome to get multiple death's Shadow's and / Deathrites. Also trying out one of Orzhov Charm. Figured out that Linginer souls belongs in the deck very much still. Probes are the reason I went for the death's shado, they make cabal therapy stronger. Its a bit diffrent lowers the converted mana cost and adds killing condiction that isnt costing 4 mana, sorin elspeth hero etc.

[Wilkin]

Ranger for 2 Death's Shadow. Interesting.

Went to Legacy Tournament in Toronto Primrose Hotel. Made Top 4. 37 players. 6 rounds of swiss. Went 4 wins and 2 draws in the swiss....1-1 in the playoffs. Main list is the same.....in the board I put back in Zealous Persecution and tried out a Golgari Charm.

Round 1. Goblins. 2-1. Batterskull and Sword of Fire and Ice get there. Ringleaders get there game 2 for him. Massive removal for me wins game 3. Highlight....he has a Goblin Sharpshooter, Warchief and a Prospector. I have a Stoneforge, Bob and Revoker (it had named Prospector since that was there from turn 1). He attempts to shoot Bob, and in response I cast Zealous Persecution.....killing his Prospector and Sharpshooter and sparing Bob.

Round 2. Reanimator 2-0. I thoughtseize on the play seeing 2 Lotus Petal, Entomb, Reanimate, animate dead, exhume and Show and tell. Take the entomb.....I win but cringing every time he draws a card since he`s 1 card away from winning. Game 2. I side in 11 cards (LOL). He mulls to 4, which allows me time to get humility out.

Round 3. Merfolk. 2-0. I thoughtseize him seeing Adept, 2 lords and a Spell pierce. I take the adept. I play a Hero of Bladehold shortly after...and then another. He manages to kill the first one by blocking with Lord of Atlantis and a Cursecatcher. But I play another Hero.....so I have a Hero, 2 soldier tokens and a Deathrite Shaman....to nothing on his side...gg. Game 2. he has some lords out and a Kira but I have a Batterskull with Jitte on it. GG.

Round 4. UR Delver 2-1. With Young Pyromancer. Lost game 1 to said Pyromancer. Too many little 1.1`s to deal with. Game 2, Hero is too much for him to handle. And game 3 Batterskull gets there.

Round 5. ID
Round 6. ID

Round 7 playoffs. BUG Tempo 2-0. First turn Hymn to Tourach via Chrome Mox. Followed quickly with Deathrite and Vindicate his only land.
Game 2. Hero of Bladehold wins the top deck war.

Round 8. Canadian Thresh. 0-2. I usually do well vs them....not that day. Honey Badgers get there.

-Hero won my at least 5 games on her own. I know people are skeptical on this card but I tell ya, she`s insane. Since I play so much removal, it`s not too hard to clear the path.
-Never saw the Golgari Charm. Only played it against Goblins and UR Delver. It there in theory to deal with little creatures, especially Elves and as a 5th way to kill Leyline of Sanctity.
-Revoker was good, shutting down Siege-gang Commander.
-Shriekmaw was ok, actually got to cast it for 5, against Goblins.
-Happy I put back in the Zealous Persecution. Saving Dark Confidant and killing 2 guys with a 2 mana spell is pretty sweet.
-I was the only one in the top 8 that wasn't blue. UR delver, 2 Bug Tempo, UR Landstill, Merfolk, 2 Canadian Thresh.....and me.
-Not much show and tell today from what I saw. Heard there were 3 Tin Fins decks.

[raikenxy]

Took 2nd at my local gaming store tonight with my own take on this archetype. My list is below

Creatures: 18

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia
3 Mirran Crusader

Instant/Sorcery: 13

3 Lingering Souls
1 O-Ring (needs to be a vindicate, just need to get one)
1 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 cabal Therapy
2 Inquisition of Kozileck (needs to be thoughtseize)

Planeswalkers/Artifacts: 7

3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Chrome Mox
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte

Lands: 22

3 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Plains
4 swamp
1 Bayou

Sideboard:

2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 surgical extraction
2 rest in peace
2 zealous persecution
2 oblivion rings
1 duress
1 inquisition
1 thalia
1 day of judgment
1 path to exile


Matches:

Burn: 2-0
BUG: 0-2
Scape Fit: 2-1
4-Color Chandra (sweet ass deck) 2-0

I wound up getting second as the the BUG pilot wound up winning. I'm rlly liking the list so far. A couple things i've begun to notice lately is that it doesn't feel like traditional deadguy ale at all. The inclusion of deathrite, chrome mox, thalia and liliana make it more of a tempo deck. Hastening your two drops with chrome mox has lead to a bunch of games where I drop a turn one thalia/bob/mystic that just need to be answered... and often times even when they are answered I just play another must answer two drop. I used to run four thalia and three mystics mainboard but have switched back to three thalia main and four mystics main with the last thalia in the side. Thalia is a really strong maindeck card and i strongly suggest running her even with the anti-synergy it has with a lot of the sorceries/instants/planeswalkers.

Some deck thoughts...

- I need to get two thoughtseize and an extra vindicate... cabal therapy is an all-star card even turn one blind.
- I like running only three scrublands, im told i should run a fourth but have found i never rlly am in trouble for running three
- I need to get a singleton karakas
- i like the higher then average number of basics, it's lead to me surviving turn one blood moons and wasteland screws several times
- I really want to try a Singleton Elspeth in the mainboard, not sure what to take out though
- the deck feels more like b/w tempo then deadguy ale. Any time i've gone deathrite, wasteland into bob/mystic or turn two liliana or turn one bob/mystic/thalia i've pretty much won all those games.
- the deck feels very flexible
- im debating about adding another bayou to the list and running two chokes in the sideboard to shore up my matches against BUG and Stoneblade variants.

some troubles i've had now...

- Esper stoneblade/Deathblade i have found to be a very nigh unwinnable match up for myself outside of having easily the perfect opening hand. These two decks effectively do the same things you do while also running blue... where I run thalia and mirran crusader, they run brainstorm and Jace... and the lists that run engineered explosives lead to some hard blowouts
- the decision tree with deck is a lil more shifty then i've given it credit before in the past... it has a really bad overrealliance on two-drops and choosing which one to play first is really tricky. im hoping with practice these decisions get easier as I've just started to get used to the deck. Tonight I've noticed that running bob out first usually isn't a smart play... If i run out stoneforge or thalia first and they day thats fine. Bob can easily find me more of them if they die, bob is what gets you into the late game if your unable to put the nails in the coffin within the first three or four turns. in short i think playing bob later is more beneficial to the decks overall game plan... tho turn one bob off of chrome mox is fucking awesome

[Mirrislegend]

The changes and decisions I need help with are subtle but important:

4 Deathrite
4 Confidant
4 Stoneforge
3 Lingering Souls
2 Hero of Bladehold

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Liliana of the Veil

3 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
4 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath (should be 2)
3 Verdant Catacombs (should be 2)

SB:
3 Thalia
3 Teeg
1 Lingering Souls
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Disfigure
2 Duress
1 ______

- I decided to go with 2 Hero of Bladehold. It's dead in many matchups, but it is CRITICAL in many others. Given that it fills some of the deck's real weaknesses, I feel like its a very justifiable choice. The alternative was a second Batterskull. However, that loses to all the expected hate.
- I cut Zealous Persecution because of the decrease in Maverick. Also, most matchups where it was relevant, the Disfigures are great also
- I can't figure out what to put in the last slot. I'm torn between Life from the Loam (for RUG and long game control matchups) or Manriki-Gusari (all equipment opponents).

Input, please!

[Wilkin]

The changes and decisions I need help with are subtle but important:

4 Deathrite
4 Confidant
4 Stoneforge
3 Lingering Souls
2 Hero of Bladehold

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Liliana of the Veil

3 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
4 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath (should be 2)
3 Verdant Catacombs (should be 2)

SB:
3 Thalia
3 Teeg
1 Lingering Souls
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Disfigure
2 Duress
1 ______

- I decided to go with 2 Hero of Bladehold. It's dead in many matchups, but it is CRITICAL in many others. Given that it fills some of the deck's real weaknesses, I feel like its a very justifiable choice. The alternative was a second Batterskull. However, that loses to all the expected hate.
- I cut Zealous Persecution because of the decrease in Maverick. Also, most matchups where it was relevant, the Disfigures are great also
- I can't figure out what to put in the last slot. I'm torn between Life from the Loam (for RUG and long game control matchups) or Manriki-Gusari (all equipment opponents).

Input, please!

What is your meta consist of? Without that info it's hard to say....
What's the extra Souls in the board for? I'd probably cut that. Noticed that aside from the Deathrite Shamans, you don't have any GY hate. Assuming there's no Tin Fins or Dredge in your meta.

For RUG, I find Relic of Progenitus, Rest in Peace and Engineered Explosives to be pretty good vs them. Loam is nice in that it can Wastelock them, however if they have any kind of board presence already....Life might not help. And of course, Perish is another option.

[igri_is_a_bk]

If you're bringing in the Oblivion Rings specifically for Show and Tell then you might as well use Angel of Despair. I can't think of any other MU you would look to O Ring to turn the tide in your favor, so you might as well play the best answer you can for that niche.

[Mirrislegend]

Careful sifting of my meta reminds me that equipment is not nearly as prevalent as other strategies. So that settles that argument!

The Lingering Souls in the SB are debatable, but I think it's time to try it without them.

LftL was mostly for RECOVERING from RUG's Wastelands and Stifles. But it is even more tempo loss against an already tempo deck.

Oblivion Ring is viable vs any control deck or any matchup where you absolutely NEED more removal. Angel of Despair does not provide that.

Graveyard hate is something I always mean to fit in. Given that Stifle is in so many decks these days, Relic of Progenitus and Tormod's Crypt are vulnerable. So I guess Rest In Peace it is!

SB:
3 Thalia
3 Teeg
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Disfigure
2 Duress
2 Rest in Peace

[raikenxy]

im thinking of adding an elspeth knight errant and 2 mindcensors to my list was wondering what people's experiences with her in the deck were ?

[Teluin]

I have 1 MB - nothing but good things to say.

[raikenxy]

what about mindcensors ?

[nedleeds]

They are really good when you respond to your opponents search effect with them. :eek:

[Rizso]

Like the new srylands might try out some. Anything to increase consistency.

[Mirrislegend]

The scry lands do not belong in this deck (to be honest, I'm not sure they belong in ANY legacy deck). CIPT in this format better come with a HUGE bonus. If you need increased consistency, play Bob and/or Top.

[Wilkin]

Those scry lands aren't Legacy viable imo. If they were fetchable.......perhaps as a 1 of. I'm more annoyed that they are rares, why couldn't they be uncommon? The Zendikar tap lands are duals that gain a life.....sure Scry 1 is better than 1 life but not that much better.

Any sideboarding help vs Jund or Junk decks? I find those matchups to be 50/50, LOL despite what fellow poster Razvan thinks, he just seems to have the uncanny ability to face down Hero of Bladehold on empty boards.

Tried out Mangara in the board....didn't see a matchup where he'd fit in. Maybe it should have been a Gatekeeper of Malakir instead....
Beat Rug Delver and Tezzeret Thopter foundry. Lost to rug, Jund, and Junk.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Oblivion Ring is viable vs any control deck or any matchup where you absolutely NEED more removal. Angel of Despair does not provide that.

Tell me specifically the MUs you consider control. In other words, when are you the aggro? Just so we have no miscommunication. I ask so we can have a discussion about your other sb cards. Because in my experience, Thalia and Teeg are better than O Ring against the traditional elements of a control deck. So if you have more than six slots to take out, then O Ring will make the cut. And you may, between five discard and four StP, but I dunno your exact sb plan.

[Rizso]

Those scry lands aren't Legacy viable imo. If they were fetchable.......perhaps as a 1 of. I'm more annoyed that they are rares, why couldn't they be uncommon? The Zendikar tap lands are duals that gain a life.....sure Scry 1 is better than 1 life but not that much better.

Any sideboarding help vs Jund or Junk decks? I find those matchups to be 50/50, LOL despite what fellow poster Razvan thinks, he just seems to have the uncanny ability to face down Hero of Bladehold on empty boards.

Tried out Mangara in the board....didn't see a matchup where he'd fit in. Maybe it should have been a Gatekeeper of Malakir instead....
Beat Rug Delver and Tezzeret Thopter foundry. Lost to rug, Jund, and Junk.

Scrying for free on land is very powerful, is smooths out mana flooding and mana screwing. Scry 1 on lands that gives 2 diffrent colored mana is way stronger then it looks. Thought probly not legacy viable anyway! But still gonna test!

[Valech]

Scrying for free on land is very powerful, is smooths out mana flooding and mana screwing. Scry 1 on lands that gives 2 diffrent colored mana is way stronger then it looks. Thought probly not legacy viable anyway! But still gonna test!

The problem is, at least for me, that I splashed green and cannot afford another B/W land. It´s 4 Scrubland, 2 Bayou for me, since I wanna have some basiclands in my deck.

[Wilkin]

Thinking of adding Sorin, Lord of Innistrad in the sideboard. Most likely, I'm probably gonna use Elspeth but wondering have any of you tried Sorin? What do you think of him?

[Valech]

Thinking of adding Sorin, Lord of Innistrad in the sideboard. Most likely, I'm probably gonna use Elspeth but wondering have any of you tried Sorin? What do you think of him?

I play him instead of Hero twice mainboard. Sometimes he just seals the deal by pumping a horde of 1/1 Spirits and at his worst he stalls by pumping out a token each turn. Also a nice source of jitte carriers in late game. I only had the pleasure to ultimate him twice during tournament situations, but usually it´s a win against creature based decks. It´s priceless to see the face of a designated aggro player when he realizes, that he cannot stop you from grabbing his precious goyf. Granted, that happens rarely, but I found him versatile enough to make him my second planeswalker aside lili.

Edit: Dont forget his -2 stacks, is permanent and affects creatures which enter the field after.

[Rizso]

I did play with sorin as soon as him and lingering souls go released, he was in the deck with Elspeth but later removed Elspeth. Sorin is easier to cast and has better synergy with lingering souls thought Elspeth got more synergy with her pump abiltiy with the small dudes of the deck. The Emblem making of Sorin is very strong when everything in the deck has such a low power. Making 1/x into 2/X or 3/x increases the clock with very large %.

Cards i have thought trying out is:

Lifebane zombie, with deathrite it comes down rather fast, Green and white creatures are quite common after all. And even if you dont get a card you have a 3/1 with evasion for your equipments.

Sin Collector same as the zombie, its one of thoes 2 for 1 creature that I like. Thought got stiff competition from Tidehollow Sculler wich seem to be a very strong card.

Taking the deck with some diffrent aproach with Flagstones combined with Dustbowl. Why this? Flagstones does kinda work like fetchlands with the new legendary rule and using it with dustbowls means they will do 2 for 1.

As for new cards in theros not much looks to be intersting except agent of fates when using Dark Blast with him. Ashen Riders for the board against Show and Tell. Also testing out the scry lands. Many cards will get scrapped of the list.

[Tokugawa]

I did play with sorin as soon as him and lingering souls go released, he was in the deck with Elspeth but later removed Elspeth. Sorin is easier to cast and has better synergy with lingering souls thought Elspeth got more synergy with her pump abiltiy with the small dudes of the deck. The Emblem making of Sorin is very strong when everything in the deck has such a low power. Making 1/x into 2/X or 3/x increases the clock with very large %.

Cards i have thought trying out is:

Lifebane zombie, with deathrite it comes down rather fast, Green and white creatures are quite common after all. And even if you dont get a card you have a 3/1 with evasion for your equipments.

Sin Collector same as the zombie, its one of thoes 2 for 1 creature that I like. Thought got stiff competition from Tidehollow Sculler wich seem to be a very strong card.

Taking the deck with some diffrent aproach with Flagstones combined with Dustbowl. Why this? Flagstones does kinda work like fetchlands with the new legendary rule and using it with dustbowls means they will do 2 for 1.

As for new cards in theros not much looks to be intersting except agent of fates when using Dark Blast with him. Ashen Riders for the board against Show and Tell. Also testing out the scry lands. Many cards will get scrapped of the list.
The lifebane zombie's ability is too narrow in legacy. Even against creature heavy decks, you still have low chance to hit early threats, like shaman, goyf and mongoose.

And we have many way to deal with green(and white) creatures. When you could perish their whole board, exile one is not that awesome.

If it says "white or green card", it may be our perfect "Black Clique",with 3 power, evasion and disruption...unfortunately, it says "white or green creature card".

[Wilkin]

Won a GPT for Washington. Getting 2 byes is pretty sweet. Beat Sneak attack, Death and Taxes twice, Maverick and BUG Tempo. Only loss was to Belcher.

Zealous Persecution was the sideboard MVP by far. A potential 2 mana Plague Wind vs Death and Taxes..pretty good. Tried a singleton Elspeth in the board...put it in against BUG Tempo and Maverick, never saw it, probably gonna take it out.

Still got strange looks from seeing Shriekmaw. Lol, that wasn't the weirdest card out there that day. One guy I saw played Jin-Gitaxias, Dark Confidant and Inkmoth Nexus.....in the same deck. Wtf? There was also a Stiflenought deck and a Cephalid Breakfast deck out there. Suffice to say, I didn't see any of those guys in the top 8.

Definitely going to up Persecution to 2. Seems to be more Death and Taxes around in my meta. And Elves too.

[raikenxy]

Won a GPT for Washington. Getting 2 byes is pretty sweet. Beat Sneak attack, Death and Taxes twice, Maverick and BUG Tempo. Only loss was to Belcher.

Zealous Persecution was the sideboard MVP by far. A potential 2 mana Plague Wind vs Death and Taxes..pretty good. Tried a singleton Elspeth in the board...put it in against BUG Tempo and Maverick, never saw it, probably gonna take it out.

Still got strange looks from seeing Shriekmaw. Lol, that wasn't the weirdest card out there that day. One guy I saw played Jin-Gitaxias, Dark Confidant and Inkmoth Nexus.....in the same deck. Wtf? There was also a Stiflenought deck and a Cephalid Breakfast deck out there. Suffice to say, I didn't see any of those guys in the top 8.

Definitely going to up Persecution to 2. Seems to be more Death and Taxes around in my meta. And Elves too.



i've been running a singleton elspeth in my list too and she's like sooooo good... she shines against decks like bug and maverick and have loved her when paired with liliana, her giant growth ability is awesome since most of the creatures we run are on the weeny side... turn two mirran crusader into turn three elspeth against bug is just ridiculous lol. you know your list better then i do though, im just saying i think she pulls work as a one of

ps great job on the finish!!! i love seeing deadguy do well

[Valech]

Wilkin, would you mind posting your current list, i.e. the list you won the GPT with? Especially your sideboard would be interesting for me. Or is it just the last list you posted somewhere in the thread?

[Wilkin]

Wilkin, would you mind posting your current list, i.e. the list you won the GPT with? Especially your sideboard would be interesting for me. Or is it just the last list you posted somewhere in the thread?

The main is the same as I posted before...except it's 3 Shaman and 3 Vindicate now....

sideboard always varies....here's what it was at the GPT...

2 Thalia
2 Revoker
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Golgari Charm
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Humility
1 Mangara of Corondor

[Wilkin]

Went a disapointing 4-2 to place 14th in a 40 person or so tournament. Just finishing out of prize (top 12 get duals).

Round 1 Belcher 0-2.

I know what he's playing as he was my only loss in my GPT. I thoughtseize him to get rid of belcher. I can't follow that up with anything and Empty the Warrens wins.
Game 2. I therapy away CharBelcher only to lose to top deck Empty.

Round 2. MUD 1-2.
My Batterskull and his mana screw wins game 1. Game 2, I didn't have a Sword to Plowshares for his Metalworker....wurmcoil pukage ensues. Game 3, I mull to 4 and see no lands so I pack it in.

ROund 3. bye

Round 4. RUW Helm 2-0
Overwhelm him with Soul Tokens game 1. Game 2, I ultimate Liliana.....so I separate his permanants into Volcanic, Island, Plains in one pile. Tundra, Counterbalance and Blood Moon in the other. He chooses to keep his 1 land, counterbalance and blood moon. A bit surprising to me. Also he made a bit of a mistake. In game 1, he has counterbalance with Top out and is tapped out. I cast Deathrite expecting him to draw with top and put top on top. Nope, it resolves. Got a few activations with deathrite before it gets Terminus.

Round 5. Omnitell 2-0
Game 1, I Therapy and Blind name Show and Tell...taking 2 of them. Sweet. Game 2, he has 2 Leylines of Sanctity out. After a Surgical on one of his cards I see he's got Show and Tell, Omniscience and Enter the Infinite in hand. He has 2 lands in play so I start Vindicating his lands...a single sol land and It's GG. He doesn't get his land...so I bought enough time to kill him.

Round 6. BUWG. 2-0
Good stuff.dec. Had Delver, Stoneforge, Deathrite as the creature package. Game 1, we traded stuff 1 for 1 and go into top deck mode. I top deck Lingering Souls and the 1/1 beatdown ensues. Game 2, he opens with Delver off of a Tundra. I end up casting a Bob with Jitte on it and waste his only colored land. He's a bit mana screwed and Bob with Jitte was enough to take it down. It was a Strange Brew indeed, 4 colors and it had basic lands and Wasteland. Seems kind of bad for the manabase.

May have to pack some Leyline of Sanctity or Mindbreak Trap to deal with silly Storm Shenanigans.

[ragamuffinvb]

hey everyone. longtime lurker and first time poster. i took my list of deadguy to a big local the other day. Our playgroup has been getting massive lately and last week we had 14 people show up for our tuesday night magic local tourni. Pretty decent turnout, i used to rock dredge a lot in the meta but my deadguy list is my pet deck i've been piloting a lot over the past couple months outside of big tournaments. I ended up going 3-1 taking 3rd in the event.

my list

Creatures (19)

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia
3 Mirran Crusader
1 Aven Mindcensor

Goodstuff (15)

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Lingering Souls
2 Vindicate
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Inquisition of Kozileck (need to be thoughtseize)

Artifacts (4)

1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
2 Chrome Mox

Lands (22)

4 Scrublands
4 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland
3 Swamp
3 Plains

Sideboard
1 thalia
1 lilliana
1 engineered explosives
1 kataki's war's wage
2 Rest In Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
1 duress
2 oblivion ring
2 phyrexian revoker
1 path to exile
1 perish

our group's been gearing up for the GP and tonight was no different as everyone tries to squeeze in some last minute testing.

Round 1 vs Burn

They lead off with a goblin guide, it attacks revealing a therapy on top and im at 18. I play a plains and pass. They play a land, bolt me, and attack, i plow the guide in response and they play a grim lavamancer and pass. I fetch a swamp, cast my first therapy naming sulfuric vortex as it's honestlythe scariest card for me in the whole deck, they reveal a hand of lavamancer, flamerift, and some other nonsense. I play a bob and pass, and my burn opponent kills it with grim lavamancer, gets me to near red zone on their turn and is now hellbent with two lavamancers and not enough cards in the graveyard to activate either. I stick a stoneforge mystic, and my burn opononent topdecks a land and proceeds to die to batterskull.

Game two

+2 O-Rings
+1 Duress
+2 Phyrexian Revoker
+1 Thalia
-2 Chrome Mox
-1 Inuisition
-2 Lingering Souls
-1 Elspeth

They open with goblin guide and swing, i get a swamp off the top and they pass. I play my swamp and cast cabal therapy naming sulfuric ortex again, they reveal a hand of two lava spikes, two rift bolts, and one flamerift. On their turn they play a land, followed by a guide they topdecked and spike me and swing for four, i get one land off the top. I draw a swords, cast another therapy I had in my hand for rift bolt and rip both from their hand, and then play a plains. They topdeck a land, swing with both guides one dies to swords to plowshares and i slowly take over the game by getting stoneforge into batterskull.

Round 2 vs Merfolk

I've been building merfolk lately so i'm getting used to this match up. Their mana is horrible and they are over reliant on aether vial, as long as i play around daze and force and expect the aether vial shenanigans i feel the match up is greatly in our favor.

I lose the die roll and he goes first. My hand is like two fetches, a swords to plowshares, stoneforge, liliana, confidant and chrome mox. He drops an island and plays an aether vial. On my turn i draw a mirran crusader, I'm looking at a turn one stoneforge and decide to just slow roll it. I play my fetch and pass. he ticks his vial up to one, plays a land and casts silergil adept revealing a reejery, and draws a card then passes. I draw a vindicate, play my second land , fetch twice and cast bob trying to bait out a daze or force, bob resolves and i'm at this point just certain he has neither. On his turn he plays a land, his vials at 2, hard casts a reejery and vials in a master of the pearl trident. He swings for four, i let it go through and he passes. On my turn bob reveals a land and i draw a mirran crusader. I play the chrome mox exiling crusader, cast the stoneforge getting batterskull and hold back a swords to plowshares. On his turn he keeps ial at two, vials in a silvergirl, and plays master of the pearl trident and swings for a lot, i plowed one of the lords and take some damage. On my turn bob flips another vindicate. But stoneforge and batterskull soon take over this game and i wrap it up.

Game two

+1 Path to Exile
+ 2 Phyrexian Revoker
+ 1 Liliana
+1 oblivion ring
- Aven Mindcensor
- 2 chrome mox
-2 inquisition

Me and my oponent are joking about how this deck is a new try for him. He normally plays a deadguy/junk list like myself but he said he wanted to try out merfolk tonight and he started joking about how horrible he was doing lol. We began talking about the decks mana issues and he says he hopes it won't affect him this game. He elects to go first and we draw our opening hands. He mulligans and my opening seven is fetch, fetch, sword, revoker, wasteland, path to exile, stoneforge. I say im def keeping mine and he says he is reluctantly going to try his and laughs it off. He starts by playing wasteland, aether vial and passing.... i look at his board realize he's going to get mana screwed sooooooo hard and laugh along with him as we both know he can't hard cast anything in his hand. He passes, i play a fetch land and pass the turn. He draws, laughs, plays a second wasteland haha, and another aether vial 0.o.... i'm looking at the baord look at him and say i hope u hae a force of will, on my turn i play a land and play revoker on aether vial... he vials in a cursecatcher in response and is throughouly blown out the rest of the game lol. in hindsight path to exile i'm not sure if i like in this match up or not... i'm not keen on giving a deck with horrible mana a free basic.

Round 3 vs Maverick

One of the better players in the group, me and her usually have pretty good games. Sadly i get steamrolled hard by her both games. Not much to report, other then that knight of the reliquary made me her bitch both games. My opponent here wound up winning the whole local so i'm not too dissapointed about the result.

Round 4 vs Deathblade

Game i keep a sketchy hand with like swords to plowshares, a cabal therapy, batterskull, elspeth and some lands. He lead's off by thoughtseizing me and taking batterskull. I respond by therapying him for stoneforge, nail one and he reveals like a bob another thoughtseize and a brainstorm and some lands. He thoughtseizes me again and takes elspeth. On my turn i draw a deathrite and play it. he plays bob, i plow it. I soon get double deathrite going and start getting into the red zone with both. we eventually get into a board state where i have two deathrites and an unactive jitte on baord and he has a deathrite. He top decks a batterskull and plays it and im like hella fucked unless i can top deck an asnwer. I top a liliana, swing with my euiped deathrite, kill his shaman then make him sack the batterskull token and take over the game from their.

- 2 inquisition
-2 chrome mox
+2 oblivion ring
+2 revoker
Game two his plays go deathrite, stoneforge, play batterskull where as my plays just don't get there lol. my attempt to vindicate his batterskull got spell pierced and my only out to the game then was gone. i manage to stall for fie or ten minutes with soul tokens but eventually just concede.

Game three, my opening hand is deathrite, mindcensor, crusader and some business. I lead with deathrite and pass. He apparently had kept a one lander, played his land and brainstormed, smiled as he found more land and passed. On my turn i play a second fetch and pass, he plays a fetch land, cracks it and in response i flash in aven mindcensor. Mindsensor keeps him land and on my turn i play mirran crusader and bash for two in the air. His turn he draws a fetch, cracks it and fails to find a land again and passes. My turn i play a second crusader, bash for six and pass. He top decks a land and plays stoneforge mystic, batterskull isn't in the top four and he see's the writings on the wall. I bash again and he takes six, blocking one of the crusaders. he draws then concedes.

[Wilkin]

hey everyone. longtime lurker and first time poster. i took my list of deadguy to a big local the other day. Our playgroup has been getting massive lately and last week we had 14 people show up for our tuesday night magic local tourni. Pretty decent turnout, i used to rock dredge a lot in the meta but my deadguy list is my pet deck i've been piloting a lot over the past couple months outside of big tournaments. I ended up going 3-1 taking 3rd in the event.

my list

Creatures (19)

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia
3 Mirran Crusader
1 Aven Mindcensor

Goodstuff (15)

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Lingering Souls
2 Vindicate
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Inquisition of Kozileck (need to be thoughtseize)

Artifacts (4)

1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
2 Chrome Mox

Lands (22)

4 Scrublands
4 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland
3 Swamp
3 Plains

Sideboard
1 thalia
1 lilliana
1 engineered explosives
1 kataki's war's wage
2 Rest In Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
1 duress
2 oblivion ring
2 phyrexian revoker
1 path to exile
1 perish

our group's been gearing up for the GP and tonight was no different as everyone tries to squeeze in some last minute testing.

Round 1 vs Burn

They lead off with a goblin guide, it attacks revealing a therapy on top and im at 18. I play a plains and pass. They play a land, bolt me, and attack, i plow the guide in response and they play a grim lavamancer and pass. I fetch a swamp, cast my first therapy naming sulfuric vortex as it's honestlythe scariest card for me in the whole deck, they reveal a hand of lavamancer, flamerift, and some other nonsense. I play a bob and pass, and my burn opponent kills it with grim lavamancer, gets me to near red zone on their turn and is now hellbent with two lavamancers and not enough cards in the graveyard to activate either. I stick a stoneforge mystic, and my burn opononent topdecks a land and proceeds to die to batterskull.

Game two

+2 O-Rings
+1 Duress
+2 Phyrexian Revoker
+1 Thalia
-2 Chrome Mox
-1 Inuisition
-2 Lingering Souls
-1 Elspeth

They open with goblin guide and swing, i get a swamp off the top and they pass. I play my swamp and cast cabal therapy naming sulfuric ortex again, they reveal a hand of two lava spikes, two rift bolts, and one flamerift. On their turn they play a land, followed by a guide they topdecked and spike me and swing for four, i get one land off the top. I draw a swords, cast another therapy I had in my hand for rift bolt and rip both from their hand, and then play a plains. They topdeck a land, swing with both guides one dies to swords to plowshares and i slowly take over the game by getting stoneforge into batterskull.

Round 2 vs Merfolk

I've been building merfolk lately so i'm getting used to this match up. Their mana is horrible and they are over reliant on aether vial, as long as i play around daze and force and expect the aether vial shenanigans i feel the match up is greatly in our favor.

I lose the die roll and he goes first. My hand is like two fetches, a swords to plowshares, stoneforge, liliana, confidant and chrome mox. He drops an island and plays an aether vial. On my turn i draw a mirran crusader, I'm looking at a turn one stoneforge and decide to just slow roll it. I play my fetch and pass. he ticks his vial up to one, plays a land and casts silergil adept revealing a reejery, and draws a card then passes. I draw a vindicate, play my second land , fetch twice and cast bob trying to bait out a daze or force, bob resolves and i'm at this point just certain he has neither. On his turn he plays a land, his vials at 2, hard casts a reejery and vials in a master of the pearl trident. He swings for four, i let it go through and he passes. On my turn bob reveals a land and i draw a mirran crusader. I play the chrome mox exiling crusader, cast the stoneforge getting batterskull and hold back a swords to plowshares. On his turn he keeps ial at two, vials in a silvergirl, and plays master of the pearl trident and swings for a lot, i plowed one of the lords and take some damage. On my turn bob flips another vindicate. But stoneforge and batterskull soon take over this game and i wrap it up.

Game two

+1 Path to Exile
+ 2 Phyrexian Revoker
+ 1 Liliana
+1 oblivion ring
- Aven Mindcensor
- 2 chrome mox
-2 inquisition

Me and my oponent are joking about how this deck is a new try for him. He normally plays a deadguy/junk list like myself but he said he wanted to try out merfolk tonight and he started joking about how horrible he was doing lol. We began talking about the decks mana issues and he says he hopes it won't affect him this game. He elects to go first and we draw our opening hands. He mulligans and my opening seven is fetch, fetch, sword, revoker, wasteland, path to exile, stoneforge. I say im def keeping mine and he says he is reluctantly going to try his and laughs it off. He starts by playing wasteland, aether vial and passing.... i look at his board realize he's going to get mana screwed sooooooo hard and laugh along with him as we both know he can't hard cast anything in his hand. He passes, i play a fetch land and pass the turn. He draws, laughs, plays a second wasteland haha, and another aether vial 0.o.... i'm looking at the baord look at him and say i hope u hae a force of will, on my turn i play a land and play revoker on aether vial... he vials in a cursecatcher in response and is throughouly blown out the rest of the game lol. in hindsight path to exile i'm not sure if i like in this match up or not... i'm not keen on giving a deck with horrible mana a free basic.

Round 3 vs Maverick

One of the better players in the group, me and her usually have pretty good games. Sadly i get steamrolled hard by her both games. Not much to report, other then that knight of the reliquary made me her bitch both games. My opponent here wound up winning the whole local so i'm not too dissapointed about the result.

Round 4 vs Deathblade

Game i keep a sketchy hand with like swords to plowshares, a cabal therapy, batterskull, elspeth and some lands. He lead's off by thoughtseizing me and taking batterskull. I respond by therapying him for stoneforge, nail one and he reveals like a bob another thoughtseize and a brainstorm and some lands. He thoughtseizes me again and takes elspeth. On my turn i draw a deathrite and play it. he plays bob, i plow it. I soon get double deathrite going and start getting into the red zone with both. we eventually get into a board state where i have two deathrites and an unactive jitte on baord and he has a deathrite. He top decks a batterskull and plays it and im like hella fucked unless i can top deck an asnwer. I top a liliana, swing with my euiped deathrite, kill his shaman then make him sack the batterskull token and take over the game from their.

- 2 inquisition
-2 chrome mox
+2 oblivion ring
+2 revoker
Game two his plays go deathrite, stoneforge, play batterskull where as my plays just don't get there lol. my attempt to vindicate his batterskull got spell pierced and my only out to the game then was gone. i manage to stall for fie or ten minutes with soul tokens but eventually just concede.

Game three, my opening hand is deathrite, mindcensor, crusader and some business. I lead with deathrite and pass. He apparently had kept a one lander, played his land and brainstormed, smiled as he found more land and passed. On my turn i play a second fetch and pass, he plays a fetch land, cracks it and in response i flash in aven mindcensor. Mindsensor keeps him land and on my turn i play mirran crusader and bash for two in the air. His turn he draws a fetch, cracks it and fails to find a land again and passes. My turn i play a second crusader, bash for six and pass. He top decks a land and plays stoneforge mystic, batterskull isn't in the top four and he see's the writings on the wall. I bash again and he takes six, blocking one of the crusaders. he draws then concedes.

Hmmm.......Thalia maindeck with Lingering Souls, Liliana and Elspeth. Interesting. Not a fan of it though.

How do you find it? I play Thalia's only in sideboard. I find paying 4 mana for a Lingering Souls or Liliana to really suck. I only put in Thalia vs decks that play even less creatures than me and it's fine.

Also for sideboard, I'd recommend Zealous Persecution somewhere. True Name Nemesis will be everywhere, plus it's great vs some decks like Death and Taxes, Elves etc.

[ragamuffinvb]

Hmmm.......Thalia maindeck with Lingering Souls, Liliana and Elspeth. Interesting. Not a fan of it though.

How do you find it? I play Thalia's only in sideboard. I find paying 4 mana for a Lingering Souls or Liliana to really suck. I only put in Thalia vs decks that play even less creatures than me and it's fine.

Also for sideboard, I'd recommend Zealous Persecution somewhere. True Name Nemesis will be everywhere, plus it's great vs some decks like Death and Taxes, Elves etc.

in theory it does seem pretty clunky, but i don't really notice an issue half the time. i look at her as anti-removal/lightning rod, as sticking a bobor stoneforge is of much greater priority. Deathrite shaman and chrome mox help with mana taxing as well to an extent. i run her main deck for the simple reason as she's really annoying for control decks like bug and deathblade to deal with and every now and then two of our players in our group come with T.E.S to storm people out. Overall it's just a personal preference i guess running her main deck. i will acknowledge it does not look or sound efficient in any way shape or form, but i'm ok with it lol... thalia just has her uses.

Regarding zealous persecution, i completely agree. I used to run two in the board actually, but they came out for engineered explosives and kataki as affinity was giving me some problems. Now that the affinity players have moved on to decks with true-name nemesis im definitely putting them back in.

[Tokugawa]

Since Dnt and Elves have won some main tropies in recent months, and Progenifish becomes hot topic today…

I recall the days we packed zealous persecution maindeck. In that days mavrick flooded everywhere.

[Wilkin]

Went to GP Washington. 1698 players. Placed 45th with a record of 11-3-1. Playing....Deadguy Ale of course, I suck at playing tier 1 decks....the only other decks I can even do ok with is janky combo homebrews.

Decklist.
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Shriekmaw
2 Hero of Bladehold. Yes, hero of bladehold
3 Thoughtseize
1 Cabal therapy
3 hymn to tourach
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Vindicate
4 Swords to PLowshares
2 Chrome Mox
3 Lingering Souls
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
4 Scrubland
1 Bayou
3 swamp
1 plains
1 Karakas
4 wasteland
4 Marsh flats
2 verdant catacombs
1 Bloodstained mire

SIDE. 2 Humility. 2 Engineered Explosives. 2 Zealous Persecution. 2 Phyrexian Revoker. 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. 2 Surgical Extraction.
2 Rest in Peace. 1 Duress


Round 1. BYE. GPT trial Oshawa
Round 2. BYE GPT Trial Oshawa

Round 3. 2-1 vs Sneak and Show. Herndon.
He gets a game 1 loss for showing up late. Game 2. He show and tells in sneak attack and Emrakul....GG. Game 3, I apply pressure with Batterskull and lingering SOuls.....he casts Show and tell. I put in Humility....he puts in Emrakul. He immediately concedes since he didn't board in bounce vs me.
Sided in.....2 humility, 2 revoker, 2 thalia, 2 surgical and 1 duress.

Round 4. 2-0 vs. blue black storm. Michael.
I have way too much discard for him to handle and then in game 2....a RIP seals the deal.

Round 5. 1-2 vs UR Delver. Raymond.
I'm ok with these matchups but sometimes they can ride the delver to victory. Key play for him is game 3, he flips bolt to delver (he pondered turn before), allowing him to kill bob and Liliana. Boo urns.

Round 6. 0-2. Dark Maverick. Jacob.
Didn't have a chance here. He had too many threats for me to handle. Knight of Reliquary with mom and SOFI. Uh.....yeah.

Round 7. 2-0. RUW Delver. Li.
Delver game 1 beats me down to 8. Tried Swords...counter. Vindicate....counter. Vindicate....counter. Finally Liliana. resolves. Bout time. Able to stablize. Game 3 key play was we both had Batterskull out....but Bob flips and gives me a Vindicate. At this point, my sideboard plan for these delver decks is completely overload with removal. So in goes EE, and Zealous Persecution and RIP vs the goyf and goose decks and out goes Hymn to Tourach and a Hero. Stifle and wasting me sucks but with no dudes applying pressure I can survive.

Round 8 2-1 Elves. Francis.
Game 1, He has enough for Craterhoof Overrun. Game 2 and 3, I kill every creature on board. Shriekmaw, EE, Jitte, etc. etc. Got him with Humility game 3.

Round 9. 2-1 MUD. Joe.
He plays a buried ruin....so I put him on mud and I cabal therapy him naming Metalworker. I nab it and see 2 thran Dynamo. He had to mull to 5 so with not much action I get him. Game 2. Wurmcoil beats. Game 3...
OK, so he's got a Chalice on 2. He casts a Grim monolith....we both miss the trigger....the monolith allows him to cast a Wurmcoil engine. To his credit he realizes the error and we call a judge. Judge rules that he gets a warning but he keeps the monolith and Wurmcoil in play. I appeal. But nothing. I did have the Swords to plowshares in hand but still. I'm able to pull it out with 4 Lingering Soul tokens and vindicating mana sources so he can't cast another fatty.

7-2 record. Pretty tense since I had to go 3-0 to get there.

DAY 2
Round 10. BYE. 235 players made day 2. So one of us gets a bye. It was me.

Round 11. 2-0 RUG Delver. Justin.
I have too much removal for him to handle. Winning play in game 2 was.....I had rest in peace out. He just cast goyf as a chump blocked for my Mystic with a SOFI on it. I topdeck Zealous Persecution to not only allow me to kill Goyf but give me +1/+1 to win.

Round 12. 2-1 Reanimator. Ken.
He scoops a bit early game 1. Funny thing was he has no lands in play and when I cast Hymn to tourach on him, a griselbrand was pitched. I have a Mystic out that just got a Batterskull. I try and Thoughtseize him and he scoops, saying he doesn't want to reveal what he is playing. :)
Sided in 11 cards. lol. only things I didn't put in were Zealous and EE.
Still, he's able to show and tell Griselbrand out game 2.
Game 3. I have a Liliana, 2 Deathrite, 1 bob and Humility out. On 2 occasions he calls a judge to talk to him privately. Ken later tells me that he asks how creatures like Elesh Norn, Ashen Rider and Tidespout are afffected by Humility. He realizes his only out is to bounce Humility, which he doesn't find in time.

Round 13. 2-0 Merfolk. Eric.
Game 1. Turn 1 thoughtseize I see. 1 island, 2 lords, 2 vials, 1 adept and 2 true name. I take a true name. And take the other True-name with another thoughtseize, turn 2. I'm able to bring out a stoneforge mystic that tutored for SOFI and already have a hardcast Jitte in play. He does have 2 mutavaults so he's able to double block and kill stoneforge. his other lords were killed by removal. so we go into top deck mode and brick on lands until I land Bob....and then GG>
Game 2. Key play was I'm able to kill 2 True-Name Nemesis with Zealous Persecution. Felt great. Soon after I have Humility out with a Batterskull. Funny thing was he casts a 4mana creature and laughs since it's pretty useless with Humility out. I go...oh yeah? On my turn I cast Shriekmaw for 5 mana (I might add the only time I cast him for 5 mana the entire tournament).

Round 14. 0-2 Shardless BUG. Ted, who would go onto top 8.
I can't beat Shardless BUG. Only time I ever beat that deck was when I cast bob first turn and flipped nothing but wastelands. Too much value in Shardless for me to deal with. Apparently there were like 4 Shardless in the top 16, so I'm fortunate to avoid the matchup for the most part.

Round 15. ID. Hugo
I want to place in top 64 badly. I was 50th going in. Opponent offers the draw, I accept. Plus I was getting really tired, didn't sleep much since I was so jacked up from knowing I made day 2.

All in all, very happy with the result. My goal was to make day 2 and I did. And record was as good as 11-2, which at that time was 26th place I think. LOL, pretty sure I was only guy who was playing Hero of Bladehold. I never got to cast her AT ALL. Either didn't see her or couldn't cast her. Maindeck MVP was Bob. Sideboard MVP was Humility. It beat Sneak, Reanimator, Elves and Merfolk.
Probably guessing I was one of only a few Deadguy players there. Speaking of which, I saw Chris Pikula quite often walking around. No, he wasn't playing Deadguy lol. Think he was on RUG Delver.

[Tokugawa]

Went to GP Washington. 1698 players. Placed 45th with a record of 11-3-1. Playing....Deadguy Ale of course, I suck at playing tier 1 decks....the only other decks I can even do ok with is janky combo homebrews.

Decklist.
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Shriekmaw
2 Hero of Bladehold. Yes, hero of bladehold
3 Thoughtseize
1 Cabal therapy
3 hymn to tourach
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Vindicate
4 Swords to PLowshares
2 Chrome Mox
3 Lingering Souls
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
4 Scrubland
1 Bayou
3 swamp
1 plains
1 Karakas
4 wasteland
4 Marsh flats
2 verdant catacombs
1 Bloodstained mire

SIDE. 2 Humility. 2 Engineered Explosives. 2 Zealous Persecution. 2 Phyrexian Revoker. 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. 2 Surgical Extraction.
2 Rest in Peace. 1 Duress


Round 1. BYE. GPT trial Oshawa
Round 2. BYE GPT Trial Oshawa

Round 3. 2-1 vs Sneak and Show. Herndon.
He gets a game 1 loss for showing up late. Game 2. He show and tells in sneak attack and Emrakul....GG. Game 3, I apply pressure with Batterskull and lingering SOuls.....he casts Show and tell. I put in Humility....he puts in Emrakul. He immediately concedes since he didn't board in bounce vs me.
Sided in.....2 humility, 2 revoker, 2 thalia, 2 surgical and 1 duress.

Round 4. 2-0 vs. blue black storm. Michael.
I have way too much discard for him to handle and then in game 2....a RIP seals the deal.

Round 5. 1-2 vs UR Delver. Raymond.
I'm ok with these matchups but sometimes they can ride the delver to victory. Key play for him is game 3, he flips bolt to delver (he pondered turn before), allowing him to kill bob and Liliana. Boo urns.

Round 6. 0-2. Dark Maverick. Jacob.
Didn't have a chance here. He had too many threats for me to handle. Knight of Reliquary with mom and SOFI. Uh.....yeah.

Round 7. 2-0. RUW Delver. Li.
Delver game 1 beats me down to 8. Tried Swords...counter. Vindicate....counter. Vindicate....counter. Finally Liliana. resolves. Bout time. Able to stablize. Game 3 key play was we both had Batterskull out....but Bob flips and gives me a Vindicate. At this point, my sideboard plan for these delver decks is completely overload with removal. So in goes EE, and Zealous Persecution and RIP vs the goyf and goose decks and out goes Hymn to Tourach and a Hero. Stifle and wasting me sucks but with no dudes applying pressure I can survive.

Round 8 2-1 Elves. Francis.
Game 1, He has enough for Craterhoof Overrun. Game 2 and 3, I kill every creature on board. Shriekmaw, EE, Jitte, etc. etc. Got him with Humility game 3.

Round 9. 2-1 MUD. Joe.
He plays a buried ruin....so I put him on mud and I cabal therapy him naming Metalworker. I nab it and see 2 thran Dynamo. He had to mull to 5 so with not much action I get him. Game 2. Wurmcoil beats. Game 3...
OK, so he's got a Chalice on 2. He casts a Grim monolith....we both miss the trigger....the monolith allows him to cast a Wurmcoil engine. To his credit he realizes the error and we call a judge. Judge rules that he gets a warning but he keeps the monolith and Wurmcoil in play. I appeal. But nothing. I did have the Swords to plowshares in hand but still. I'm able to pull it out with 4 Lingering Soul tokens and vindicating mana sources so he can't cast another fatty.

7-2 record. Pretty tense since I had to go 3-0 to get there.

DAY 2
Round 10. BYE. 235 players made day 2. So one of us gets a bye. It was me.

Round 11. 2-0 RUG Delver. Justin.
I have too much removal for him to handle. Winning play in game 2 was.....I had rest in peace out. He just cast goyf as a chump blocked for my Mystic with a SOFI on it. I topdeck Zealous Persecution to not only allow me to kill Goyf but give me +1/+1 to win.

Round 12. 2-1 Reanimator. Ken.
He scoops a bit early game 1. Funny thing was he has no lands in play and when I cast Hymn to tourach on him, a griselbrand was pitched. I have a Mystic out that just got a Batterskull. I try and Thoughtseize him and he scoops, saying he doesn't want to reveal what he is playing. :)
Sided in 11 cards. lol. only things I didn't put in were Zealous and EE.
Still, he's able to show and tell Griselbrand out game 2.
Game 3. I have a Liliana, 2 Deathrite, 1 bob and Humility out. On 2 occasions he calls a judge to talk to him privately. Ken later tells me that he asks how creatures like Elesh Norn, Ashen Rider and Tidespout are afffected by Humility. He realizes his only out is to bounce Humility, which he doesn't find in time.

Round 13. 2-0 Merfolk. Eric.
Game 1. Turn 1 thoughtseize I see. 1 island, 2 lords, 2 vials, 1 adept and 2 true name. I take a true name. And take the other True-name with another thoughtseize, turn 2. I'm able to bring out a stoneforge mystic that tutored for SOFI and already have a hardcast Jitte in play. He does have 2 mutavaults so he's able to double block and kill stoneforge. his other lords were killed by removal. so we go into top deck mode and brick on lands until I land Bob....and then GG>
Game 2. Key play was I'm able to kill 2 True-Name Nemesis with Zealous Persecution. Felt great. Soon after I have Humility out with a Batterskull. Funny thing was he casts a 4mana creature and laughs since it's pretty useless with Humility out. I go...oh yeah? On my turn I cast Shriekmaw for 5 mana (I might add the only time I cast him for 5 mana the entire tournament).

Round 14. 0-2 Shardless BUG. Ted, who would go onto top 8.
I can't beat Shardless BUG. Only time I ever beat that deck was when I cast bob first turn and flipped nothing but wastelands. Too much value in Shardless for me to deal with. Apparently there were like 4 Shardless in the top 16, so I'm fortunate to avoid the matchup for the most part.

Round 15. ID. Hugo
I want to place in top 64 badly. I was 50th going in. Opponent offers the draw, I accept. Plus I was getting really tired, didn't sleep much since I was so jacked up from knowing I made day 2.

All in all, very happy with the result. My goal was to make day 2 and I did. And record was as good as 11-2, which at that time was 26th place I think. LOL, pretty sure I was only guy who was playing Hero of Bladehold. I never got to cast her AT ALL. Either didn't see her or couldn't cast her. Maindeck MVP was Bob. Sideboard MVP was Humility. It beat Sneak, Reanimator, Elves and Merfolk.
Probably guessing I was one of only a few Deadguy players there. Speaking of which, I saw Chris Pikula quite often walking around. No, he wasn't playing Deadguy lol. Think he was on RUG Delver.

Nice report!

What cards would you like to tweak, after the GP experience?

[Wilkin]

Hmm....May make it 1 Hero and 1 Mirran Crusader. But i don't know. Lightning Bolt still annoying.

May take out Thalia's so that I'm not destroyed by -1/-1 effects. But most of list is alright. Thought about playing Toxic Deluge in the board but found Humility, Engineered Explosives and Zealous Persecution to kill or neuter creatures to my liking. Humility was insane. It won me 4 matches.

Was able to deal with the new boogeyman of the format in True Name Nemesis. Might add a Manriki-Gusari in board if it becomes popular. 3 damage a turn is manageable....3 damage a turn with Jitte on it....not so much.

[Rizso]

Should really get them Ensaring Bridges they are very strong atm. With Liliana its quite easy to control it, most creatures in the deck are 1 or 2 power anyway.
Have increase the land count in my deck to 23. Testing it out.

4 Scrubland
1 Bayou
4 Marshflats
3 Polluted Delta
1 Fetid Heath
2 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Wasteland
1 Dust Bowl
2 Swamps
1 Plains

4 Deathrite Shamans
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull

4 Thoughtseize
3 Inquision of Kozilek
3 Lingering Souls

4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Disfigure
1 Zealous Persecution

board
3 Abrubt Decay
1 jitte
1 Pithing Needle
3 Surgical Extraction
1 zealous Persecution
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Ashen Riders
Last card not chose atm :P Might be a massacre.

Reason for increase mana is quite simple i rather be flood and have something to do with the extra land then not be able to play my spells or having to muligan to much. Disfigure is quite good atm. Takes folk lords, flipped delvers, DRS and other fast dropps while being only 1 color and 1 mana. The decays are mainly for Counter Balance. Persecutions and Pontiff has their use against dnt and ofc true name.

Mana base is a test out for flagstones with Dust Bowl. Dust Bowl is also a way to get rid of unwanted lands when flooded. Karakas and chains of Meth are cards considering in the main as well, 1 of each.

[Wilkin]

Should really get them Ensaring Bridges they are very strong atm. With Liliana its quite easy to control it, most creatures in the deck are 1 or 2 power anyway.
Have increase the land count in my deck to 23. Testing it out.

4 Scrubland
1 Bayou
4 Marshflats
3 Polluted Delta
1 Fetid Heath
2 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Wasteland
1 Dust Bowl
2 Swamps
1 Plains

4 Deathrite Shamans
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull

4 Thoughtseize
3 Inquision of Kozilek
3 Lingering Souls

4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Disfigure
1 Zealous Persecution

board
3 Abrubt Decay
1 jitte
1 Pithing Needle
3 Surgical Extraction
1 zealous Persecution
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Ashen Riders
Last card not chose atm :P Might be a massacre.

Reason for increase mana is quite simple i rather be flood and have something to do with the extra land then not be able to play my spells or having to muligan to much. Disfigure is quite good atm. Takes folk lords, flipped delvers, DRS and other fast dropps while being only 1 color and 1 mana. The decays are mainly for Counter Balance. Persecutions and Pontiff has their use against dnt and ofc true name.

Mana base is a test out for flagstones with Dust Bowl. Dust Bowl is also a way to get rid of unwanted lands when flooded. Karakas and chains of Meth are cards considering in the main as well, 1 of each.

Oh....right, that's why you play Flagstones of Trokair. With Dust Bowl. Hmm.....how late do your games go usually? I used to play Dust Bowl a long time ago. It's ok, but only really effective in the long grindy matchups. IMO, I wouldn't bother.

I would also suggest a Sword of Fire and Ice main. Being able to swing through a True-Name Nemesis is fairly relevant. Worked wonders at the GP for me. Not a huge fan of Ashen Riders for our deck because of flipping it to Bob. Couldn't you have another Humility and/or Oblivion Ring in those spots? And you can realistically hard cast those if needed.

The Pontiff.....I like. Zealous Persecution on a dude, well close enough. LOL, what's better than giving your opponents creatures -1/-1? Doing it again with the same card.

Also, not sure if your mana base can handle 3 Abrupt Decays. I know you have Deathrites and 1 Bayou, but not sure it's enough. Is it mostly for Counterbalance? Might be ok there, since that deck usually doesn't have wasteland.