[Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

[Collman]

Congrats on the finish, looking forward to the report!

[maharis]

Congrats Wilkin! Great job. In hindsight I think this was the best non-blue non-meta deck and I wish I had played it. Someone from my LGS was 5-1 with it at one point, I wonder if he was the other "white-black stoneblade" player.

[Megadeus]

Congrats man. Good to see this deck is still able to win. I'm hoping to get us a win at the end of the month at SCG ATL. I'm thinking the best way to trump the raw advantage that treasure cruise provides is to play an unanswerable threat

[nedleeds]

... or Chains?

[Tokugawa]

Can't afford $350 chains…personally I would run spirit of labyrinth(die to bolt) as a cheap replacement.

[Rizso]

Can't afford $350 chains…personally I would run spirit of labyrinth(die to bolt) as a cheap replacement.

Price to pay for beating the couple dollars worth of cruise and brainstorm :P

[ljackstar]

Hey, I was talking to some of my friends at FNM on friday and we where wondering what resto angel is doing in this deck. Obviously it has a pretty cute interaction with stoneforge, but 4CMC hurts in a deck relying on bob for card advantage. That being said, none of us are really that familiar with this deck, and so any input is obviously appreciated.

[Wilkin]

Tournament report is up.

Well, Megadeus plays Angel so he is probably best to answer that. Being able to save a Spirit of the Labyrinth or Bob from a Bolt or Plow must be nice. And even as a just a flash 3/4 blocker can ambush a smaller creature.

But 4CMC or 5 isn't that bad really. I play 2 Shriekmaws, a Batterskull and a Hero of Bladehold and it works for me.

[Megadeus]

I have no qualms over saving up for a chains if it comes down to it, I just like spirit since it is a man. I guess dying to every removal in the game is tough, but sometimes you Gotta take the chance of that happening. Also just doing something and being a man in the non blue MU is relevant

Also the Angel is alright in testing. I've not really had too much issue with Bob. If he's flipping things, you are probably winning. Angel has been nice to eot just put man who can go blow for blow with true name is nice. And ambush blocking is fun. Saving a man with her has been rare, but it's certainly not irrelevant. I've cut to three Bob for locals so I can try out a tomb stalker. Like I said, one way to fight card advantage is to simply slam a man who they just can't answer.

[Ralf]

Tournament report is up.

Well, Megadeus plays Angel so he is probably best to answer that. Being able to save a Spirit of the Labyrinth or Bob from a Bolt or Plow must be nice. And even as a just a flash 3/4 blocker can ambush a smaller creature.

But 4CMC or 5 isn't that bad really. I play 2 Shriekmaws, a Batterskull and a Hero of Bladehold and it works for me.

Have you never revealed a Shriekmaw to Bob ? I know uncounterability is a thing but well...
How was the 1-of Council's judgment compared to a 3rd vindicate ? I cannot see a common use case where CJ > Vindicate (except a resolved Emrakul, hexproof guy which I consider mostly as a corner case) but maybe I'm missing something here.
I read your report and it seems that stone raining people have worked like a "charm".

I'm glad Bladehold shows up. I'm playing Sorin, LoI in its place to add further % against control & grindy matches.

I also like your SB, pretty well tuned against TC decks. After the GP, would you make changes, if any ? I'm playing with a second chains of Mephi because it synergizes so well with "Bob + Stone rain".

[Tokugawa]

Have you never revealed a Shriekmaw to Bob ? I know uncounterability is a thing but well...
How was the 1-of Council's judgment compared to a 3rd vindicate ? I cannot see a common use case where CJ > Vindicate (except a resolved Emrakul, hexproof guy which I consider mostly as a corner case) but maybe I'm missing something here.
I read your report and it seems that stone raining people have worked like a "charm".

I'm glad Bladehold shows up. I'm playing Sorin, LoI in its place to add further % against control & grindy matches.

I also like your SB, pretty well tuned against TC decks. After the GP, would you make changes, if any ? I'm playing with a second chains of Mephi because it synergizes so well with "Bob + Stone rain".
Council's judgment is for TNN-hate.

[Ralf]

Council's judgment is for TNN-hate.

3 liliana & 1 SOFI & Lingering are already nice answers to TNN.
But you might be right, I was overthinking anyway since I'm used to playing with 2 diabolic edict MD instead of shriekmaw, so that TNN is rather a non issue.

[Wilkin]

Sure, I have revealed Hero, Shriekmaw and Batterskull to bob. It happens. Even still, in the 5 or so years playing Dead Guy, I've died less than 7 times to Bob. He's won many more games than I have lost. And Shriekmaw is there for the "removal curve". lol. I don't play decay so I wanted a kill card at 2 mana. And I also wanted something that could be a threat, in this case a late game threat because I don't play that many threats.

Council's Judgment is a catch all for a few things like True Name, Emrakul etc. Also nice since it can get around MOther of Runes or Goblin Welder. Having said that, there were more instances where I wish the Judgment was a Vindicate than the other way around. With the meta the way it is now, people are less afraid of wasteland and land destruction in general.....so they are either skipping on land counts and/or not afraid of playing out all non-basics first. That's how I beat the First UR Delver guy. He ran out Delver off of a Volcanic Island turn 1....most people do that thinking the other guy probably won't waste it with a threat out. LOL, I'm not most people. My first competitive Magic deck had 4 Sinkholes, 4 Strip Mine, 4 Icequake, and 4 Ice storm.

I'm also guessing that's why the 2 12-post guys did well (I faced one late day 1 and the other day 2), less wastelands around is better for them in general.

I like Sorin, Lord of Innistrad. Considering adding one to board. Good for the grindy matchups and lifegain is alright. Elspeth probably better but Dread of Night and especially Sulfur Elemental are out there...

Changes to board.....Hmmmm..... Not sure. Treasure Cruise is a beating. It seems to me, whatever answer you try to run is inferior to the threat (Cruise). In game play, Relics and Deathrites were probably the most effective in reducing the Cruise Threat. Chains was ok but doesn't do much else than stop the draw silliness, and with many cards in hand already Bob Huang was able to use Cruise as a Faithless Looting esque kind of effect anyway. Didn't put Teeg in that much, except against the Sneak attack deck.

In hindsight, probably should have had a Firewalker or 2 and maybe less combo hate cards for more Delver hate. But if I played the GP again, my opponents could have been completely different. I played against One combo deck and one miracles. Lucky I only had to play against one burn and I heard there were a ton of MUD players. And I'm sure there were more stompy builds since Chalice of the Void was sold out.

[Ralf]

Sure, I have revealed Hero, Shriekmaw and Batterskull to bob. It happens. Even still, in the 5 or so years playing Dead Guy, I've died less than 7 times to Bob. He's won many more games than I have lost. And Shriekmaw is there for the "removal curve". lol. I don't play decay so I wanted a kill card at 2 mana. And I also wanted something that could be a threat, in this case a late game threat because I don't play that many threats.

I like Sorin, Lord of Innistrad. Considering adding one to board. Good for the grindy matchups and lifegain is alright. Elspeth probably better but Dread of Night and especially Sulfur Elemental are out there...

In hindsight, probably should have had a Firewalker or 2 and maybe less combo hate cards for more Delver hate. But if I played the GP again, my opponents could have been completely different. I played against One combo deck and one miracles. Lucky I only had to play against one burn and I heard there were a ton of MUD players. And I'm sure there were more stompy builds since Chalice of the Void was sold out.

I guess our variance is very different. Bob seems to always reveal the highest CMC card in my deck at a perfect timing....for my opponent.
Elspeth might be better save the mana requirement.
But as you point it out, I wanted to have other "non white" threats. You are playing Shriekmaw and me "Diabolic Edict", so Sorin was a must include as I am lighter on endgame threats. Not to mention, the lifelink ability of the generated token which has, a non zero amount of time, made me crawl back from behind. Even chain blocking until Sorin could use his ultimate has been stellar in some MU. At last, the synergy with Lingering has to be mentioned. Once, I was dead on board raced by a TNN, Sorin showed up, pumped 4 spirit tokens and I swang for lethal.

By the way, impressive performance.
Congratulations.

[Megadeus]

I'mwith Wilkin. The Times I've died from Bob (and it wasn't a desperation play off of like playing him to chump at 1 life) just by flipping over a pile of 4 amd five drops is almost 0. He'll hurt you, but generally if he gets active andyou aren't at like 5 life from the get go, he's awesome. Just remember, Greatness. At any cost. ANY COST.

I could see edict being solid, but I already have liliana. I'm also main boarding a single persecution now as well. Not only can it sweep an opponent nicely, but it can protect from nasty 2 for 1 forked bolts. I have honestly been wanting for another 1 drop removal. Deciding between either a path or a disfigure.

[Mirrislegend]

I guess our variance is very different. Bob seems to always reveal the highest CMC card in my deck at a perfect timing....for my opponent.
If you have room, try Sensei's Divining Top. Really smooths things out.




I'mwith Wilkin. The Times I've died from Bob (and it wasn't a desperation play off of like playing him to chump at 1 life) just by flipping over a pile of 4 amd five drops is almost 0. He'll hurt you, but generally if he gets active andyou aren't at like 5 life from the get go, he's awesome. Just remember, Greatness. At any cost. ANY COST.

I could see edict being solid, but I already have liliana. I'm also main boarding a single persecution now as well. Not only can it sweep an opponent nicely, but it can protect from nasty 2 for 1 forked bolts. I have honestly been wanting for another 1 drop removal. Deciding between either a path or a disfigure.

Go with a disfigure. It hits almost everything in the format and doesn't have a direct drawback. The few things it cannot hit (Goyf, Emrakul, reanimator targets) all get managed in a different way anyways.

[Ralf]

I'mwith Wilkin. The Times I've died from Bob (and it wasn't a desperation play off of like playing him to chump at 1 life) just by flipping over a pile of 4 amd five drops is almost 0. He'll hurt you, but generally if he gets active andyou aren't at like 5 life from the get go, he's awesome. Just remember, Greatness. At any cost. ANY COST.

I could see edict being solid, but I already have liliana. I'm also main boarding a single persecution now as well. Not only can it sweep an opponent nicely, but it can protect from nasty 2 for 1 forked bolts. I have honestly been wanting for another 1 drop removal. Deciding between either a path or a disfigure.

We have 1 to 3 liliana MD.
I play with:
3 liliana
2 Diabolic edict
4 Swords
3 Vindicate

This a lot of spot removal. Unless, if you are (like me) stone raining people, a lot.
Zealous Persecution MD is something I have to think about. Might be a very good call, right now.

[Megadeus]

My friends always berate me for using my vindicates as stone rain... I just like to get aggressive! I always waver on two or three of them..

As for liliana, I don't think I've ever changed from 3. It just seems right. The card is versatile and fine in almost every match up. And I'm usually against running persecution main because it is awful against the hard control decks and often the non elves combo decks, but I think it just feels right at the moment

My current removal suite:
4 STP
3 liliana
2 Vindicate
1 Zealous Persecution
SoFaI and Jitte have the ability to be removal.

Sb:
2 Perish
1 ZP
1 Shriekmaw
2 Disenchant

[Ralf]

If you have room, try Sensei's Divining Top. Really smooths things out.

Well, I used to be playing with top as a 2-of.
Then, I saw (six or seven months ago), Wilkin, playing with chrome mox.
I tested it out, never looked back:

T1:
DRS + Dual out -> enable wasteland + swords
T1 -> Bob / SFM
T1-> discard + swords
T1 -> HTT

or T2:
SFM / Bob daze proof -> Opponent brainstorm -> Discard (note you won't catch a competent player here but well...) !
T2 -> vindicate (stone rain) after a T1 discard
T2 -> Liliana

Etc..

Speed vs Consistency (Card quality).
I guess we could argue for hours. But, Wilkin has a lot of solid performances with it and I have yet to see a "top build" showing up such good results.
Sometimes, you have 2 mox in your opening hands and it sucks -> mulligan.
But overall, the deck needs free wins with such good T2 plans that are Bob/SFM or even, sometimes you have that kind of land denial & control opening hand that just needs to be beefed up to blow out your opponent. Chrome mox is just a huge boost in these particular cases.
Boost which tends to lead to victory most of the time you have it.

[Rizso]

Gonna start play maindecked Chains of Mephistophel. As well fixing the mana so that Abrupt Decay is able to be cast most of the time. There is afterall less wastelands then ever. Abrupt Decay is really strong right now.

[Megadeus]

I'm not denying the strength of chrome mox. I like it in theory, I just haven't tested it and I have had success with my build so I'm hesitant to change what has worked

[Rampart]

I'm not denying the strength of chrome mox. I like it in theory, I just haven't tested it and I have had success with my build so I'm hesitant to change what has worked

My brother was the other Deadguy deck that made day two and he also runs a pair of chrome mox's and swears by them. The speed the deck up and stabilizes the mana issues (he is not running DRS) this deck can have sometimes. I think it just creates some super powerful plays that he feels necessary. If he doesn't get them early he discards them to Liliana or filters them away with Top.

I would test them to see if you like them or not, whats the worst that could happen at your local weekly event, you go 1-3 or whatever for the week? Not saying i would just jam them at a large SCG event or the like. But it doen't hurt to explore different options

[maharis]

Wilkin's latest results have convinced me to give this deck a go with Chrome Mox + less lands. I probably won't play Liliana main but I'm definitely having her in the board, and playing ZP main and possibly Orzhov Pontiff. Also Hero of Bladehold. And maybe Blood Baron of Vizkopa. Could you imagine dropping that thing against BBD's list, haha. Nice Bolt, STP and Batterskull. But that's probably a pipe dream.

4 Souls seems like the place to be too, since most decks are playing x/1s and no way to beat x/1s for some reason. Could also see Pack Rat having a place. Wilkin has 7 discard main... 21 lands and 2 Chrome Mox... at least one Pack Rat to make those un-chaff seems OK. I might only do 5-6 discard main anyway. I like Therapy with Bob and 4 Souls.

On 1 cmc removal... Darkblast? You can do tricks with it to kill Delver, SFM and DRS. Wish we had something as cool to do with our GY as Cruise though. Delve doesn't play well with Bob unfortunately. Seems good with Matt's Reanimate/Unearth though. Discard their SFM, reanimate, get our skull, nice. Or mill our SFM, reanimate it. You can also use it with Top hilariously. Next 3 look like garbage? Tap, dredge, kill your Pyromancer, fresh 3 under SDT.


My brother was the other Deadguy deck that made day two and he also runs a pair of chrome mox's and swears by them. The speed the deck up and stabilizes the mana issues (he is not running DRS) this deck can have sometimes. I think it just creates some super powerful plays that he feels necessary. If he doesn't get them early he discards them to Liliana or filters them away with Top.

I would test them to see if you like them or not, whats the worst that could happen at your local weekly event, you go 1-3 or whatever for the week? Not saying i would just jam them at a large SCG event or the like. But it doen't hurt to explore different options

Can you get his list? No DRS is very interesting.

[Rampart]

Can you get his list? No DRS is very interesting.

its something like this I think, He moves the chrome mox count up and down from 1 to 2 a lot. not sure the exact qty for the GP

1 Chrome Mox
2 Tops
1 Batterskull
1 Fire and Ice
1 Jitte
4 STP
2 Vindicate
1 Darkblast
4 Liliana
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy

3 Lingering Souls
3 Grunt
3 Mom
3 Stoneforge
4 Dark Confy

21 Lands
2 Karakas
1 Urborg
2 Swamp
1 Plains
7 Fetch
4 Scrublands
4 Wasteland

Some sideboard crap

[Wilkin]

My brother was the other Deadguy deck that made day two and he also runs a pair of chrome mox's and swears by them. The speed the deck up and stabilizes the mana issues (he is not running DRS) this deck can have sometimes. I think it just creates some super powerful plays that he feels necessary. If he doesn't get them early he discards them to Liliana or filters them away with Top.

I would test them to see if you like them or not, whats the worst that could happen at your local weekly event, you go 1-3 or whatever for the week? Not saying i would just jam them at a large SCG event or the like. But it doen't hurt to explore different options

At first I was like "How do you know only 2 deadguy decks made day 2?". And then I read the metagame 2 breakdown on wizards. Hmmm.....black/white stoneblade. Well, at least it's better than Washington, I was listed as Junk. And my list from that year had only Deathrites and Bayou, not even a Gaddock Teeg.

[Rizso]

Once again thinking of trying out Cursed Scroll. With less knights and tarmogoyfs. Scrolls kills alot more creatures nowdays. Thought smash to smithereens is quite a card right now.

[Teluin]

A long time ago I talked about playing Bitterblossom in this deck. The card's awesome and can just win games. It gets even better later on if you've boarded in Zealous Persecution to fight Young Pyromancer decks - they're kinda popular. I know Souls is 'faster' but not by much if they're in your opening hand since BB costs 1 less to cast (by T3 when you cast Souls for 2 tokens, BB would have 1 token in play). GY hate and a higher CMC vs. a 2 cost that just keeps on giving is something to consider.

[Wilkin]

Used to play Bitterblossom. Once I went to Lingering Souls I never went back.

-Souls does cost more but it's like 2 spells in one. If they counter it the first time, you can just flashback. If they counter Bitterblossom it's gone.
-Growing opposing goyfs by 2 with Bitterblossom sucked. Really sucked.
-Lingering Souls has an immediate board impact whereas you have to wait a turn with Bitterblossom and also once you get the token it can't attack that turn.
-I've died to Bitterblossom more times than I have with Dark Confidant. And I haven't played Bitterblossom in like 2 years.


It's a good card for sure but I feel that Lingering Souls kicked it to the curb.

[Rizso]

I like Sorin, lorde of innistrad way more then elspeth in the deck. The emblem is beast with Lingering Soul.

I used to play bitterblossom as well. Great card when ahead worst card when behind. Lightning Bolts are everywhere. Engineered Plague is a card again with it removing 8/12 creatures from ur-delver. Dont want the faeries to be 0/0s :P

Gotten my hands on 3 chains of meph so time to rock them out :P

[tescrin]

I'd mostly run Bitterblossom if you're running Goyf. I use Sculler (partly) for the same reasons. If you *are* running goyfs, things like Sculler/Blossom beef him up to *huge* extremely fast. When you're 2-drop is outsizing reanimator targets, you know you're doing something right :)

[Megadeus]

Tested a bit versus Elves and a punishing RUG Delver variant. The Angel was solid against delver, forcing him to have to 2 for 1 to kill it off. Tomb stalker was decent as well, just not when he had a jace... Might just go back to more Angel or something. Containment Priest was solid against elves, except he still just had the nut glimpse hand to draw his deck and kill me. Derp. On a 2/2 split of him and spirit in the main. I probably should cut stalker for something and put the 4th Bob back

[Jon]

Tested a bit versus Elves and a punishing RUG Delver variant. The Angel was solid against delver, forcing him to have to 2 for 1 to kill it off. Tomb stalker was decent as well, just not when he had a jace... Might just go back to more Angel or something. Containment Priest was solid against elves, except he still just had the nut glimpse hand to draw his deck and kill me. Derp. On a 2/2 split of him and spirit in the main. I probably should cut stalker for something and put the 4th Bob back

I really think you should try atleast Hero of Bladehold. That guy seems insane, one man army.

[Teluin]

Used to play Bitterblossom. Once I went to Lingering Souls I never went back.
...
It's a good card for sure but I feel that Lingering Souls kicked it to the curb.

Fair enough. Back then I had been talking about it instead of Bob, but it's been a long time since I played the deck. Also, with everyone talking about blue's filtering being so key - how has Sensei's Divining Top not become a 4-of in non-blue decks such as this one? It smooths draws, works with fetchlands, can even draw a card when you want it to and is great with Bob.

[Megadeus]

For me, I'd rather not durdle with top. I'm tapping out almost every turn. I'd rather play Sylvan Library to be honest.

[Madmankevinx]

I decided to try something silly on thursday at my local.... I wanted to have some form of card advantage to keep up with u/r delver which is everywhere. I only have 4 duals atm, 4 fbb scrubland, so I can't splash. I added 4 Squadron Hawk to hang with my 4 Lingering Souls. I am not gonna lie, it worked. I ran 4 equipment main also to avoid trying to win off the back of a 1/1 flyer. Jitte, SoLaS, SoFaI, and BSkull. I faced U/r delver twice and only lost when I double mull'd and faced 2 wasteland T2 and T3. I'm not saying I just cracked the code, but it won me a lot of games all night. I also ran 3 Vindicate main deck with 1 Council's Judgment next to my 4 StP and they did work all night too. Got some "WtF!!-s" all night with my Paladin en-Vecs out of the board haha! Yep. Hawk atack. Win.

[Wilkin]

I decided to try something silly on thursday at my local.... I wanted to have some form of card advantage to keep up with u/r delver which is everywhere. I only have 4 duals atm, 4 fbb scrubland, so I can't splash. I added 4 Squadron Hawk to hang with my 4 Lingering Souls. I am not gonna lie, it worked. I ran 4 equipment main also to avoid trying to win off the back of a 1/1 flyer. Jitte, SoLaS, SoFaI, and BSkull. I faced U/r delver twice and only lost when I double mull'd and faced 2 wasteland T2 and T3. I'm not saying I just cracked the code, but it won me a lot of games all night. I also ran 3 Vindicate main deck with 1 Council's Judgment next to my 4 StP and they did work all night too. Got some "WtF!!-s" all night with my Paladin en-Vecs out of the board haha! Yep. Hawk atack. Win.

I'm curious about the Paladin. Why that over say a Kor Firewalker? Well Squadron Hawk is card advantage. I'm surprised it doesn't see more play. Like the Vindicates. Seems a lot of the Delver decks are not only having less Spell Pierces, but less lands as well.

Going forward, I'm wondering if Hymn to Tourach should be replaced with Sinkhole or a one mana discard. Crossing my fingers that they ban Cruise but since I think there were only about 10 copies in the top 8, that may not happen.

Even considering splashing blue for Notion Thief. Or maybe more green for Choke in the board. Anyone try Choke? A friend of mine who plays Elves tried Choke and didn't really like it.

[Megadeus]

I liked choke as a tutor target. Don't think I lost a game where I resolved it. I generally didn't bring it in against delver though. Mostly just the mid range blue decks. And miracles

[Madmankevinx]

The Paladin en-Vecs should be Firewalkers but I actually didn't have any handy at the time. It was relevant however against Abrupt Decay vs. BuG, and a Germ blocking wall against Batterskull.

[Tokugawa]

No reason to play squandron after printing of Lingering souls.

Comparing to the standrad caw-blade deck which dominate the format in 2010-2011…they have Jtms, so they put hawks back, resolve the 1 copy in hand, and get cda again and again.

We cannot do that.

[Rizso]

No reason to play squandron after printing of Lingering souls.

Comparing to the standrad caw-blade deck which dominate the format in 2010-2011…they have Jtms, so they put hawks back, resolve the 1 copy in hand, and get cda again and again.

We cannot do that.

Its better against terminus! :D

[Bahra]

Hi guys first time posting in this thread. I usually play D&T but I have played Deadguy Ale before, both on MODO and in +100 player tournaments. But I have still not nearly the experience with Deadguy Ale that I have with D&T. So I'm looking to learn the deck better as I believe it's well positioned right now.

I play a lot on Magic Online (currently playing 2-3 legacy dailies a day). And the list I've come up with for right now is as follows:

20 lands:

3x Bloodstained Mire
1x Flooded Strand
4x Marsh Flats
1x Karakas
1x Plains
2x Swamp
4x Scrubland
4x Wasteland

20 Creatures:

4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Serra Avenger
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tidehollow Sculler
4x Mother of Runes

20 other:

3x Thoughtseize
3x Swords to Plowshares
4x Aether Vial
4x Hymn to Tourach
1x Zealous Persecution
2x Council's Judgement
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Batterskull

Sideboard:

1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Perish
2x Zealous Persecution
1x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Enlightened Tutor
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Rest in Peace
1x Spirit of the Labyrinth
1x Engineered Plague
1x Absolute Law
1x Circle of Protection: Red

I think this is good for the current MODO meta which consists of a lot of Stoneblade with True-Name Nemesis, a lot of burn and a good deal of miracles.

I also think that Choke is fantastic for the current meta so I will be testing a Deathrite Shaman version as well, but I am not settled on a list at all.

I hope I can help you guys find a great list for the UWR stoneblade infested meta we're going in to. And likewise that you can help me find a great list.

[Madmankevinx]

Maybe it's me but I just feel that Thoughtseize is awful right now. I'm preferring hymns mixed with cabal therapy atm. Hymn hits land and cabal can do serious work with lingering souls.

[Megadeus]

See I'm more on the train that Hymn isn't as good anymore. I'd rather have targeted discard to make sure I hit the equipment they find with Stoneforge

[Bahra]

Maybe it's me but I just feel that Thoughtseize is awful right now. I'm preferring hymns mixed with cabal therapy atm. Hymn hits land and cabal can do serious work with lingering souls.

Considering Stoneforge is everywhere right now, I like Thoughtseize enough to play it. It's not good against UR delver but that is on a decline, and Thoughtseize is excellent against UWR stoneblade and miracles which is two of the decks I'm targetting.

I'm not sure about Hymn to Tourach but I'm gonna test it before I dismiss it. Normally, what sucks about Hymn to Tourach, is that you tap out on turn 2 to do add nothing to the board. But with Aether Vial you still develop your board and mana despite using 2 mana on a discard spell, so I think I like it.

[sdematt]

Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapy are what you want to be playing if you're good enough, and Marc, you're good enough. I'd like it more if you were on the Souls plan, but if you're on a BW Vial list, you want Cabal. Hymn is kind of stinky right now.

-Matt

[maharis]

Hey Bahra, cool to see you here in the DGA thread. I've been a big fan of your stream for a while as it helped me get through a number of touchy naptimes when my son was teething, congrats on breaking through in paper last week!

I actually just watched the last two rounds of the daily you played tonight. I think your black & taxes approach is cool but it seems very subject to variance. When you can Vial into Wasteland-Thoughtseize-Mom into Hymn-draw step Sculler, it's great. But a lot of the time otherwise I feel like Sculler, Hymn, and Vial are underwhelming cards without some of the cooler D&T synergies (mono-color manabase and Rishadan Port).

I agree that we can be the best Zealous Persecution deck in the format. Because of that I really think Lingering Souls is a very strong card. I like it better than Avenger because it's resistant to Lightning Bolt (and there are always more Lightning Bolts than Forked Bolts) and can trade with Delver while still giving you bodies even without playing a ZP. Flying over the top with equipment is a huge bonus.

Personally I would rather have some combination of Top, Souls and Cabal Therapy over Vial, Sculler, and Hymn. Therapy + Souls can help rip the cards you're the most scared of, and Therapy + Top are both outs to Bob killing you (sometimes relevant). Thoughtseize into Therapy is very often game over against any deck to be honest.

If you like Avenger I think it's fine to keep as a 2-3 of for a late-game beater. There are lots of other options for such a slot, though: Wilkin likes Hero of Bladehold, Megadeus likes Restoration Angel, I've tried a bunch of stuff in there. Honestly Avenger having flying seems super important in a Young Pyromancer/TNN world, so I could see myself trying that as well.

I really like Council's Judgement right now too because of TNN. ZP can help us mop up Pyromancer spam but I always die miserably to TNN. How has 2 mainboard been for you? Would you make any other changes to the deck?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

If you are interested in Black and Taxes, I highly recommend looking into Richard Cheese's version of it. I'm not sure but I think he put up a tourney report with it a while back, just do a quick search. It's a good starting point imo.

[Megadeus]

I played it a few months ago. I think it's good enough to at least test out. I just don't have access to, and therefore don't play it enough to know if it's good enough. It's probably not terrible with an optimal player and list though

[Wilkin]

Interesting Death and Taxes hybrid list. Unfortunately, Hymn to Tourach isn't that good right now because of Treasure Cruise. If I were to build a list it would look like this...

4 Dark Confidant
3 Thalia, Guardian Of Thraben
4 Mother of Runes
2 Brimaz
2 Orzhov Pontiff
3 Flickerwisp
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Stoneforge Mystic

4 swords to plowshares
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Council's Judgment

22 Lands.
4 scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland
3 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Karakas
4 more fetches.

Sideboard
4 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
2 Containment Priest
1 Council's Judgment
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Rest in Peace
2 Kor Firewalker
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Zealous Persecution



Tried to fit in Chrome Mox somehow. lol. Casting Thalia first turn vs Storm is awesome. But I couldn't. In the board, maybe some more spot removal like Disfigures or something as Sulfur Elemental is a beating. I feel right, now if you are going with a hybrid build that Pontiff is really good right now. Killing Elemental tokens, Young Pyromancer and True Name is great, and possibly being able to do it again either with Haunt or Flickerwisp is very enticing.

Couldn't really fit in Hymn. And as long as Treasure Cruise is around, Hymn isn't that good. But with a couple of Spirits main, there's an answer maindeck to Cruise.

[Wilkin]

Also considered Hero but Brimaz is much easier to Vial in, and in a Taxes Build you can afford to run more Karakas.

[Bahra]

I played 2 dailies so far with the list, in the first daily I beat ANT and UR Delver, and lost to ANT and TES for 2-2. Then I played another one and beat UWR stoneblade, UB Tezzeret, a standard deck (yes) and MUD for 4-0. I'm fairly happy with the list, I like how it plays against Stoneblade and I really liked Hymn to Tourach but I had trouble casting it a lot of the time. I also wouldn't have 4-0'd if not for the main deck Zealous Persecution.

I don't believe in that Hymn to Tourach is just bad because of Treasure Cruise, it's not as simple as that. They're not just gonna draw Treasure Cruise off the top every time and it's a ridiculous notion that they would.

I think Thoughtseize is better than Cabal Therapy because I have nothing I really want to sacrifice to it, and on top of that, I want to Thoughtseize on turn 1 often so Cabal Therapy is not optimal.

Next I'm gonna test a Deathrite Shaman version with Choke in the sideboard. I will have to come up with a list first though. I will try Lingering Souls in this list.

[Rizso]

Just as hymn goes both ways. It also a way to fight against the card advantech. They are gonna be able to cast the cruise for cheap mana with or without your hymn anyway so.

[rickster]

I really liked Hymn to Tourach but I had trouble casting it a lot of the time.

If you like Frank Karsten's math, you should have close to 20 black sources to cast turn 2 hymn as opposed to 14.

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/frank-analysis-how-many-colored-mana-sources-do-you-need-to-consistently-cast-your-spells/

[Megadeus]

Yeah I'm not a fan of 20 lands . I'd be closer to 22

[Bahra]

Yeah I'm not a fan of 20 lands . I'd be closer to 22

I'm trying the Deathrite Version now and I'm up to 22 lands but I don't know what to cut. I'm also not sure about the manabase. But this is my decklist so far:

Main deck (62!!!):

Spells (40):

4x Mother of Runes
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Lingering Souls
4x Dark Confidant
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Tidehollow Sculler
4x Deathrite Shaman
3x Cabal Therapy
3x Swords to Plowshares
1x Zealous Persecution
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Batterskull

Lands (22):

1x Bayou
4x Scrubland
1x Savannah
1x Plains
2x Swamp
1x Karakas
4x Marsh Flats
1x Windswept Heath
3x Verdant catacombs
4x Wasteland

Maybe 4x Lingering Souls is too much? Also keep in mind that there's a lot of storm on modo currently.

[Wilkin]

I agree that therapy isn't as good without some sort of token generation. At the same time though, having one or two in board is fine if u expect a heavy mystic meta. For my dead guy cutting a hymn for a chains and adding a pontiff to the board. Still hard to totally cut hymn as I have the chance to turn 1 cast it.

[Wilkin]

If there's a lot if storm you could cut a mystic. I only run 3 since I hate casting her without anything to find (I run same equipment package). Hmmm....I suppose other cut is a souls or mother?

[Bahra]

If there's a lot if storm you could cut a mystic. I only run 3 since I hate casting her without anything to find (I run same equipment package). Hmmm....I suppose other cut is a souls or mother?

Well there's just no way I'm cutting a mystic or a mom. But cutting a souls and a hymn seems more realistic.

[maharis]

This is what I came up with last night:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Pack Rat
1 Hero of Bladehold

4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lingering Souls
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Darkblast
1 Council's Judgment

1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire & Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland
3 Scrubland
2 Swamp
2 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Karakas
1 Mishra's Factory

2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Pithing Needle
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Disenchant
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad

Might give it a shot tomorrow at the weekly if I can resist the lure of Veteran Explorer and Siege Rhino.

I feel like Wasteland isn't as good as it used to be at the moment given all the cantripping and basic lands and lack of greedy manabases like deathblade and BUG. I'm thinking about going to 2 Wastes and 3 Mutavaults for even more Pack Rat madness. Pack Rat is in there to find a way to generate virtual card advantage with dead draws late and keep up with the cantrip cartel. I don't own any mutas at the moment, hence the Factory, but I do love me some manlands.

[Wilkin]

Well there's just no way I'm cutting a mystic or a mom. But cutting a souls and a hymn seems more realistic.

Cool.

What else is the meta on MODO? I haven't the slightest clue since I only play paper magic. Oh and I must say that was so entertaining, watching your match vs Joe Lossett at SCG Richmond. Beating an Entreat and a Baneslayer. Vial in response to Miracle Trigger... sweet.



As for Pack Rat, still wondering if there's a home for it somewhere. I tried it in Reanimator sideboards and it was ok there. A guy I know put the Rat in a Loam Shell. That seems so wicked....Loam for 3 lands, discard a few to Rats. Rinse. Repeat. I guess Pack Rat could also find a home in Sam Black's Goblin Bombardment deck.

[Bahra]

Cool.

What else is the meta on MODO? I haven't the slightest clue since I only play paper magic. Oh and I must say that was so entertaining, watching your match vs Joe Lossett at SCG Richmond. Beating an Entreat and a Baneslayer. Vial in response to Miracle Trigger... sweet.



As for Pack Rat, still wondering if there's a home for it somewhere. I tried it in Reanimator sideboards and it was ok there. A guy I know put the Rat in a Loam Shell. That seems so wicked....Loam for 3 lands, discard a few to Rats. Rinse. Repeat. I guess Pack Rat could also find a home in Sam Black's Goblin Bombardment deck.

You can see the "winning meta" here: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/legacy#online

Basically it's all Miracles, UWR stoneblade and ANT right now + a few guys playing some rogue decks.

[Wilkin]

You can see the "winning meta" here: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/legacy#online

Basically it's all Miracles, UWR stoneblade and ANT right now + a few guys playing some rogue decks.

Ah ok. The only matchup I hate to face for sure is Miracles and maybe the Stoneblade deck if they run Counterbalance/Top in board. Otherwise, the meta looks favourable.


What is your gamplan against Miracles? For me, it's running a few extra discard, Revokers, Teeg and Engineered Explosives.

[Megadeus]

Sorry guys. Couldn't get the balls up to play dead guy today. But top 8'ing was also nice.

I think miracles is favorable though. Souls does work, and barring a random eantreat it's tough to lose imo if you don't draw garbage.

[Rizso]

This is what I came up with last night:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Pack Rat
1 Hero of Bladehold

4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lingering Souls
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Darkblast
1 Council's Judgment

1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire & Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland
3 Scrubland
2 Swamp
2 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Karakas
1 Mishra's Factory

2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Pithing Needle
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Disenchant
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad

Might give it a shot tomorrow at the weekly if I can resist the lure of Veteran Explorer and Siege Rhino.

I feel like Wasteland isn't as good as it used to be at the moment given all the cantripping and basic lands and lack of greedy manabases like deathblade and BUG. I'm thinking about going to 2 Wastes and 3 Mutavaults for even more Pack Rat madness. Pack Rat is in there to find a way to generate virtual card advantage with dead draws late and keep up with the cantrip cartel. I don't own any mutas at the moment, hence the Factory, but I do love me some manlands.

With the rats mutavault gets stronger then factory.

[maharis]

Yeah I agree. After a little playtesting last night I think I'm definitely shaving the wastes for some manlands. Either mishras and spirits of the labyrinth or Mutas and pack rats. We are definitely the control deck against URx and manlands seem pretty good against them since they don't run wastes and have to burn/STP our value creatures.

[MBSegal]

I 3-0'd split a DE with this a few weeks ago. Lent it to a friend on Sunday and he went X-2 cashing at SCG ATL after never playing Legacy before.

4 DRS
4 Bob
4 SFM

4 Liliana
4 Thoughtseize
4 STP
3 Lingering Souls
3 Hymn
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Vindicate
1 Disfigure
1 Jitte
1 SoFaI
1 Batterskull

4 Scrubland
2 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Wasteland
2 Isolated Chapel
4 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bloodstained Mire

SB:
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Garruk Relentless
2 Humility
1 Disenchant
1 Duress
2 Rest in Peace
2 Ethersworn Cannonist
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Absolute Law

Basically what I have cashed a few invitationals and opens with just with a different sideboard since not many other decks play discard. Probably would cut Absolute Law for another Zealous Persecution.

[Wilkin]

Like the build MBSegal. UR Delver and Burn look like byes.

Garruk is an interesting choice, I'm guessing you went with Garruk over Elspeth or Sorin, Lord of Innistrad because Garruk can kill a creature the turn in comes into play whereas the other 2 can't.

[maharis]

Played my list above last night, except I couldn't get my hand on any mutavaults before the tournament so I played 2 Spirit of the Labyrinth, 2 Mishra's Factory, and 3 Wasteland.

Rd. 1 BW rack pox win 2-1. Nothing to say here, the guy was a returning player who had Hypnotic Specter in his deck. I lost game 2 when he ritualed into hymn and IoK turn one. Guess I should play Force of Will. Other games equipment and Lingering Souls were bad for him.

Rd. 2 miracles lose 1-2. I won game 1 when he had two pyroblasts trapped in his hand and never drew a Brainstorm. Sic semper tyrannis! I don't remember what happened in game 2. I scooped to him in turns in game 3 rather than make him take a draw when I had no chance to break out of his lock and win when he could've Jaced me out eventually. So this was probably closer to a draw than a loss theoretically but I did willingly concede.

Rd. 3 storm lose 0-2. I had a lot of thoughtseizes and a bob game one, and I flipped hero of bladehold allowing him to tendrils me out for like 5 storm. Thanks for nothing Wilkin :laugh: Game 2 I kept Thoughtseize, 2 Souls, Swamp, 2 Wasteland and Nihil Spellbomb. I thought if he had a non-basic, thoughtseize into waste would give me time to find a plains. Plus I had Spellbomb in case his line took him to PiF. And I didn't want to mull into no interaction. It didn't work out that way. I seized a Cabal Ritual, but he had a probe, saw I had nothing I could really do, and knew to fetch basics. But his Ad Nauseum flipped Tendrils early. Unfortunately for me he had the ability to do a value tendrils then a second one to finish me off because he boarded in a second copy. tech!

Rd. 4 jeskai stoneblade (BBD) lose 0-2. I did manage to Zealous away a TNN in game one but I already knew he had a batterskull. Didn't find a discard spell. I attempted to resolve a Spirit of the Lab at some point and he snap forced. Game 2 he cast a lot of treasure cruises but I kept hanging on. Eventually I resolved Hero of Bladehold, attacked into his batterskull, Pyromancer and a couple tokens, he said he knew what was coming but blocked anyway. I zealoused the shit out of his board, but he untapped and played a TNN that picked up the batterskull and carried it to victory.

I felt that the games were very close, despite the fact that I went 1-3 I like the deck. There are some things I learned:

—Wasteland is declining in power in the UR(W) meta, which I define as including the jeskai blade deck, UR(w) delver, miracles. Those decks have lots of fetches, card draw, Gitaxian Probes, and basics. Getting them a turn closer to Treasure Cruise at the expense of your own land drop and board is just ugly. And because Wastelend isn't played in many decks, manlands gain a lot of power. Ones that don't CIP tapped like Factory and Mutavault especially seem good in a deck without many heavy color requirements. Something to apply pressure with, pick up equipment, flash back therapy. I really think I want at least 3, and two Wastelands as panic buttons. Sure wish I had a way to find those Wastes when I want them though.

—I really wanted more ways to kill artifacts. I guess the answer is more Council's Judgment. Also might toss a Dispeller's Capsule in the board to grab with E-tutor. Wish Vindicate killed TNN somehow.

—You can never have too many Zealous Persecutions. I think I might toss in an Orzhov Pontiff as well.

—Darkblast was kind of meh. I used it to kill a Snapcaster Mage. I like knowing it's there, didn't get to live the dream with Top. Maybe on the chopping block.

—Definitely wish I had some way to recur from the graveyard. I feel like every other deck gets insane value from all zones and we are just living off the top. Gonna look into that as well.

[nedleeds]

Sure wish I had a way to find those Wastes when I want them though.


http://magiccards.info/scans/en/on/59.jpg

As far as abusing your yard, you can run Grunt and put gas back in ... doesn't pair great with Souls though, but doesn't die to bolt and keeps people off cruise. There's the obvious Light and Shadow, which in a world where opponents are bolting your men isn't bad and it can stand off a Griselchimp with a token / angel / mindcensor.

[Rizso]

Wayfarer kinda need horizon cananopy's / cyclelands to be really useful.

[tescrin]

Wayfarer kinda need horizon cananopy's / cyclelands to be really useful.

I guess. You can active in response to wasting someone (or fetching) when you have parity on land drops (I.E. if you went first and do it on their turn) and grab another waste/thing. It's card advantage either way and you have the (very good) benefit of wasting someone up to 4 times without caring. If you have a remotely usable hand you can simply play a 2-drop as soon as they miss a land drop. I may try to figure him out in my Junk brew since I'm so heavy on 2-drops. A CA-engine at 1-mana that only requires fetches and W seems pretty boss.

CA is CA is my point. If you activate him twice in response to fetches (or just being behind) you have TC levels of CA, so I wouldn't call him useless just because you didn't actually "Draw cards"

[Rizso]

He requires alot of time tho. Have tried to get him work for while. But he is hard to play with. Thought not really tried him out with deathrite shaman.

[MBSegal]

Like the build MBSegal. UR Delver and Burn look like byes.

Garruk is an interesting choice, I'm guessing you went with Garruk over Elspeth or Sorin, Lord of Innistrad because Garruk can kill a creature the turn in comes into play whereas the other 2 can't.

Well, some of it was I don't own the other two. It is ok against D&T, Miracles and on the play against Elves. Not going to pretend it was a well thought out decision, just I like Garruk Relentless. I think Absolute Law should be containment priest, just I didn't know that card existed until Sunday (I have not played in 4 months or more).

[tescrin]

He requires alot of time tho. Have tried to get him work for while. But he is hard to play with. Thought not really tried him out with deathrite shaman.

He could be useless for other reasons still ;P
Like I said, I think I'll try to figure him out in Junk a bit and let people know if I have any success with it. He may just be too conditional or the CA may be too low quality.


EDIT:
How do people feel about Batterskull vs. Sword#2? I think I want to try some more BSK again, but maybe it's just not meant for non-Mom decks.

[Rizso]

He could be useless for other reasons still ;P
Like I said, I think I'll try to figure him out in Junk a bit and let people know if I have any success with it. He may just be too conditional or the CA may be too low quality.


EDIT:
How do people feel about Batterskull vs. Sword#2? I think I want to try some more BSK again, but maybe it's just not meant for non-Mom decks.

I like the batterskull as all the creatures in the deck are so small by themself. Batterskull is a way to make them bigger. Just like dnt batterskull do sometime gets equiped.

[Megadeus]

As I've said, I like Sorin over Garruk because it's ultimate means that miracles can't ever play out a jace with him on board, but Garruk isn't terrible by any means. As for skull vs 2nd sword, I like skull because all of our men are small and terrible in combat. Skull is the opposite

[MBSegal]

I would cut the 4th Bob far before I cut the 1st Batterskull.

[Mr. Safety]

Played my list above last night, except I couldn't get my hand on any mutavaults before the tournament so I played 2 Spirit of the Labyrinth, 2 Mishra's Factory, and 3 Wasteland.

Rd. 1 BW rack pox win 2-1. Nothing to say here, the guy was a returning player who had Hypnotic Specter in his deck. I lost game 2 when he ritualed into hymn and IoK turn one. Guess I should play Force of Will. Other games equipment and Lingering Souls were bad for him.

Rd. 2 miracles lose 1-2. I won game 1 when he had two pyroblasts trapped in his hand and never drew a Brainstorm. Sic semper tyrannis! I don't remember what happened in game 2. I scooped to him in turns in game 3 rather than make him take a draw when I had no chance to break out of his lock and win when he could've Jaced me out eventually. So this was probably closer to a draw than a loss theoretically but I did willingly concede.

Rd. 3 storm lose 0-2. I had a lot of thoughtseizes and a bob game one, and I flipped hero of bladehold allowing him to tendrils me out for like 5 storm. Thanks for nothing Wilkin :laugh: Game 2 I kept Thoughtseize, 2 Souls, Swamp, 2 Wasteland and Nihil Spellbomb. I thought if he had a non-basic, thoughtseize into waste would give me time to find a plains. Plus I had Spellbomb in case his line took him to PiF. And I didn't want to mull into no interaction. It didn't work out that way. I seized a Cabal Ritual, but he had a probe, saw I had nothing I could really do, and knew to fetch basics. But his Ad Nauseum flipped Tendrils early. Unfortunately for me he had the ability to do a value tendrils then a second one to finish me off because he boarded in a second copy. tech!

Rd. 4 jeskai stoneblade (BBD) lose 0-2. I did manage to Zealous away a TNN in game one but I already knew he had a batterskull. Didn't find a discard spell. I attempted to resolve a Spirit of the Lab at some point and he snap forced. Game 2 he cast a lot of treasure cruises but I kept hanging on. Eventually I resolved Hero of Bladehold, attacked into his batterskull, Pyromancer and a couple tokens, he said he knew what was coming but blocked anyway. I zealoused the shit out of his board, but he untapped and played a TNN that picked up the batterskull and carried it to victory.

I felt that the games were very close, despite the fact that I went 1-3 I like the deck. There are some things I learned:

—Wasteland is declining in power in the UR(W) meta, which I define as including the jeskai blade deck, UR(w) delver, miracles. Those decks have lots of fetches, card draw, Gitaxian Probes, and basics. Getting them a turn closer to Treasure Cruise at the expense of your own land drop and board is just ugly. And because Wastelend isn't played in many decks, manlands gain a lot of power. Ones that don't CIP tapped like Factory and Mutavault especially seem good in a deck without many heavy color requirements. Something to apply pressure with, pick up equipment, flash back therapy. I really think I want at least 3, and two Wastelands as panic buttons. Sure wish I had a way to find those Wastes when I want them though.

—I really wanted more ways to kill artifacts. I guess the answer is more Council's Judgment. Also might toss a Dispeller's Capsule in the board to grab with E-tutor. Wish Vindicate killed TNN somehow.

—You can never have too many Zealous Persecutions. I think I might toss in an Orzhov Pontiff as well.

—Darkblast was kind of meh. I used it to kill a Snapcaster Mage. I like knowing it's there, didn't get to live the dream with Top. Maybe on the chopping block.

—Definitely wish I had some way to recur from the graveyard. I feel like every other deck gets insane value from all zones and we are just living off the top. Gonna look into that as well.

I've been tesing Volrath's Stronghold in place of the 4th Wasteland. I always think knight is an option with one of lands but honestly vs is fine on its own. I also splash green, a bastardized junk/deadguy list.

[maharis]

I thought about Wayfarer, but it's so weak/conditional. I guess what I'm trying to figure out is if it's worth running only 2 wastelands in a deck without really meaningful library manipulation. At least the Karakas produces white mana. I don't think mana denial is an effective strategy in this deck at the moment with curves so low and cantrips abundant. The main cards I want to hit with it are Gaea's Cradle, Rishadan Port, Cloudpost, and Tabernacle. Running a true land toolbox with cycling lands also seems like a good way to get stuck with bad openers. Horizon Canopy is the best one of those cards, and even it's kind of meh. The problem I'm facing is running out of threats, and that's where Factories come in. I had two Wastelands in play at the end of a miracles matchup and I think had they been Factories I could've pulled it off.

I do think Jotun Grunt is very interesting right now, though. It does a good job of keeping them off Cruise and there's always a ton of fuel. Getting a sword on it is the key since it lacks evasion.

I played Garruk Relentless in Nic Fit. It's pretty underrated, but I don't think we're green enough here to cast him reliably. It's gross in nic fit, you either pump out dudes or kill one of their dudes, pump out dudes, then start tutoring with those dudes. Sorin is great vs miracles, I unfortunately didn't get him down against it. Maybe should have more than one.

Batterskull vs. Sword of Light & Shadow... SoLaS gives us some much needed card advantage/selection, and it blocks opposing Batterskulls. A Kor Firewalker wearing that thing would be sick. On the other hand, untapping with an SFM when you have Skull in hand is close to an autowin.

Edit:


I've been tesing Volrath's Stronghold in place of the 4th Wasteland. I always think knight is an option with one of lands but honestly vs is fine on its own. I also splash green, a bastardized junk/deadguy list.

Yes, I thought of this card last night and forgot. I think it's really good right now. Definitely need Knight for it though. Or it scores another point for Wayfarer because this is a card that can flip a matchup around.

[tescrin]

My testing with VS some months back (march-ish?) was underwhelming. Plows/DRS/Scooze are obnoxious and sometimes the only guys you can get back are a confidant or something. At the time I had no mystics/equips so I'm sure it was worse since I needed fat (I was using KotR in Junk.) There's just enough psuedo-gravehate in good cards (as mentioned above) that anything outside of RUG or UR has ways of interacting with your ability to get stuff back. Doesn't mean it's bad, but after my experience with it I've avoided it. I'd be glad to find out if my super-cool tech card was actually good :p.

But...

I've also had little luck with SoLaS getting me dudes back. When it does it's sweet that you have unlimited sword carriers, can fight through Lily discard, can chump endlessly.. etc. but I've mostly been running SoLaS because Pro-removal is pretty sweet and I think having all ground dudes and no-mom makes me like an out to D&T. (In junk I stopped running my -1/-1 effects because Delver decks were causing me problems.)

I also protest cutting wastes. Bahra, for example, (a D&T player) speaks about how he basically won Richmond off of wasting 4-5 people out. Wastes have always been sometimes-dead; but they're too good to start moving around I think.

[Rizso]

My testing with VS some months back (march-ish?) was underwhelming. Plows/DRS/Scooze are obnoxious and sometimes the only guys you can get back are a confidant or something. At the time I had no mystics/equips so I'm sure it was worse since I needed fat (I was using KotR in Junk.) There's just enough psuedo-gravehate in good cards (as mentioned above) that anything outside of RUG or UR has ways of interacting with your ability to get stuff back. Doesn't mean it's bad, but after my experience with it I've avoided it. I'd be glad to find out if my super-cool tech card was actually good :p.

But...

I've also had little luck with SoLaS getting me dudes back. When it does it's sweet that you have unlimited sword carriers, can fight through Lily discard, can chump endlessly.. etc. but I've mostly been running SoLaS because Pro-removal is pretty sweet and I think having all ground dudes and no-mom makes me like an out to D&T. (In junk I stopped running my -1/-1 effects because Delver decks were causing me problems.)

I also protest cutting wastes. Bahra, for example, (a D&T player) speaks about how he basically won Richmond off of wasting 4-5 people out. Wastes have always been sometimes-dead; but they're too good to start moving around I think.

Problem I would have with solas in the main is that there is quite few creatures overall in the deck. However Shriekmaw pretty damn awesome if running that sword. The seconds sword I like the most atm is Sword of Feast and Famine.

[maharis]

My testing with VS some months back (march-ish?) was underwhelming. Plows/DRS/Scooze are obnoxious and sometimes the only guys you can get back are a confidant or something. At the time I had no mystics/equips so I'm sure it was worse since I needed fat (I was using KotR in Junk.) There's just enough psuedo-gravehate in good cards (as mentioned above) that anything outside of RUG or UR has ways of interacting with your ability to get stuff back. Doesn't mean it's bad, but after my experience with it I've avoided it. I'd be glad to find out if my super-cool tech card was actually good :p.

But...

I've also had little luck with SoLaS getting me dudes back. When it does it's sweet that you have unlimited sword carriers, can fight through Lily discard, can chump endlessly.. etc. but I've mostly been running SoLaS because Pro-removal is pretty sweet and I think having all ground dudes and no-mom makes me like an out to D&T. (In junk I stopped running my -1/-1 effects because Delver decks were causing me problems.)

I also protest cutting wastes. Bahra, for example, (a D&T player) speaks about how he basically won Richmond off of wasting 4-5 people out. Wastes have always been sometimes-dead; but they're too good to start moving around I think.

Yeah, it's hard to cut Wasteland. 3 feels like too many and 2 feels like too few. Should be noted that D&T also plays port and thalia, though, which puts more pressure on manabases.


Problem I would have with solas in the main is that there is quite few creatures overall in the deck. However Shriekmaw pretty damn awesome if running that sword. The seconds sword I like the most atm is Sword of Feast and Famine.

That is cool, but for that to work you need to have already killed a creature with shriekmaw and gotten through with a sword, which means you're probably already ahead. I wish SoLaS engines were more viable in terms of coming from behind, which is what I'm looking for. SoLaS is good because each hit undoes a Delver/bolt and lets you get back a creature that they have already used removal on like SFM or Bob or DRS, I think.

SoFaF is really good at times as well. Being able to do two things a turn is the difference between life and death. I try to keep it in my board if I think BGx will be a thing.

[Teluin]

Went 4-0 tonight. I can try to do a report if you guys want.

[Valech]

Went 4-0 tonight. I can try to do a report if you guys want.

Sure, especially if there were hard match ups.

[Teluin]

This was my first time playing at the newest game store in town so I had no idea what the meta was. We have 3 different stores at each end of the region that fire Legacy each week, and there were a lot of faces I hadn't seen at the other stores.

* Note, this is all from memory and some things are a bit of guesswork. Some things happened, but might've been in a different game of the match. I didn't take notes, etc.

The deck:

Deadguy Ale

Land:

4 Scrubland
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Swamp

2 Plains
1 Karakas

Total: 22

Creatures:


4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant

Total: 8



Spells:


2 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Liliana of the Veil

3 Bitterblossom
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
1 Engineered Plague
1 Umezawa’s Jitte

1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Rest in Peace
1 Helm of Obedience

Total: 31

Siderboard:

2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Vindicate
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Engineered Plague
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Leyline of Sanctity

Matches:

UR Delver

He wins the die roll and is on the play.

Game 1 he plays a land and passes the turn. I cast IoK, take a Forked Bolt leaving a Lightning Bolt. He seemed a bit confused and plays Delver. I play RiP and he seems very confused about what I'm playing but admits it's nice vs his Cruises. Next turn I played Bitterblossom. Yep. His Delver blind flips - which they did every time during our games. Every. Time. Anyway, Bitterblossom keeps me alive and discard keeps his hand empty. He has 1 card in hand, and I cast Helm. He draws, no answer, on to game 2.

Game 2 we fight a bit for board position. He gets a Delver and a Young Pyro on board. He has 4 tokens out, a Pyro and a Delver. I have an RiP on the board and play Engineed Plague naming human. His Insect is now tiny on the board and he draws a Young Pyromancer. I had Helm in my hand, and when I knew the coast was clear from counterspells, I cast it for the win.

1-0

W/U/B/G Slivers - apparently this thing Top 8'd an SCG event not long ago??

He wins the die roll.

Game 1 I surprise him with the RiP and Helm combo. He thought RiP was just there for Treasure Cruise, as I'd told him I was expecting it tonight. Was my first time at the place so no clue what the meta was. Apparently my Round 1 opponent was the only one playing U/R Delver.

Game 2 he gets out 3 Pump Slivers fast thanks to Vial and destroys me.

Game 3. I IoK him and see Muscle Sliver and 3 Galerider Slivers - take the Muscle. He beats down with 3 Galerider Sliver before I cast Engineered Plague. I have a Bob, an RiP, Engineered Plague and a Top on the board. He has a Predatory Sliver and a Hibernation Sliver. I make him discard a Harmonic Sliver. Nice! He then starts just top-decking lands. He keeps double attacking then bouncing the Predatory Sliver - I block with Bob before he uses Vial to put it back in before damage. His EoT I'm down to 3 life, use Top and find Helm with 5 mana on the board. He asks if I have the combo since he wins next turn if I don't. Untap and win. Sweet!

2-0

Death & Taxes

I roll snake eyes and he wins the die roll. Seriously??

Game 1 He plays a land and says go. I T1 IoK and grab Mother of Runes. He plays Thalia and says go. I cast Karakas and bounce his Thalia. Sweet Time Walk! Next turn I cast SFM and I win via SFM into Batterskull/keeping his hand empty of threats via discard.

Game 2 he wins via MoR, Thalia and Serra Avenger stopping my Faerie tokens from blocking.

Game 3 was so epic. I seriously thought he had it, he T2 SFM's getting Batterskull. I cast T2 Bitterblossom for some serious chump blocks. He goes to 28 I think? I hardcast SoFaI, equip it and take out the 2 SFM's he has on the board, then cast LotV to have him sac the Batterskull token. I'm building an army of faeries but am losing life and he was at 20-something. I use LotV to control the board but if he can get some blockers against my Sword wielding faerie then it could be trouble (he had Vial in play). I topdeck a Zealous Persecution and hit him for 10 with the SoFaI/all the tokens. I am at 4(?) when I finally manage to get him to 0. Great game!

3-0

Burning Reanimator Tendrils

I win the die roll! YES!

Reanimator deck and I'm on the play? NICE. I play Fetchland, pass with a land and a RiP in my hand - note, at this point I do not know what he's playing. He T1 Griselbrand's… Gah! He then decides to be fancy and uses Burning Wish to combo win. Gotta show off the sweet deck!

Game 2 he mulls and I think I do too. He doesn't have the T1 win, I cast Rest in Peace. Yes! I then cast SFM into Batterskull and beat him for 5 a turn and that's game.

Game 3 he mulls to 5. I play fetch land, he casts T1 Petal and LED. Oh crap am I dead? Nope, he was scared of discard. Smart man - I Hymn him. I then get an RiP into play and Bitterblossom tokens with a SoFaI for the win.

4-0

RiP was awesome. It's amazing vs Cruise but also good against Tarmogoyf, DRS, etc. Most decks use the GY in some way, and if they don't - it's not a dead card thanks to Helm. RiP is also why I played Bitterblossom instead of Souls. This version is more control-y and true to the original Deadguy Ale deck so BB is great for keeping mana open as it generates offense/defense.

[maharis]

I love it. Very cool idea and nice run.

Have you thought about using something like Chrome Mox to accelerate into a T1 2-drop? You can pin extra RIPs or discard to it, and it gets you closer to casting Helm.

What about Enlightened Tutor instead of/in addition to SDT to find your bullets?

[Teluin]

I love it. Very cool idea and nice run.

Have you thought about using something like Chrome Mox to accelerate into a T1 2-drop? You can pin extra RIPs or discard to it, and it gets you closer to casting Helm.

What about Enlightened Tutor instead of/in addition to SDT to find your bullets?

I'd considered Mox but the deck would lose some of its control for speed and speed's not really what it's about. BB's so great because it is both offense and defense in the now and later. Tutor's the same thing - don't know what I'd cut. Maybe a LotV for one, but even then - Helm is a secondary win con despite the #s it gave last night and RiP's a 4-of.

[Mirrislegend]

I've been pondering RiP for a long time. I just have a hard time believing that sacrificing Deathrite Shaman and Lingering Souls would be worth it. And how was LotV without Lingering Souls?

[Teluin]

I've been pondering RiP for a long time. I just have a hard time believing that sacrificing Deathrite Shaman and Lingering Souls would be worth it. And how was LotV without Lingering Souls?

LotV was great. Because of Bitterblossom making threats, you can discard decent-ish cards to keep your opponent's hand empty/their board clear. She was often used as creature removal as well.

The way I saw it, RiP hurts most decks in the meta. If you make it not hurt you by removing a few cards, then it's a 1-sided effect. Removing DRS and Souls did that, and made it a 2 colour deck thus enabling Swamps and Plains which are an added bonus vs Blood Moon type decks.

[danpo]

Seems like a sweet build -- I like the mainboard Rest In Peace a lot.

Quick question: How do you sideboard against Burn? I played a Deadguy-ish build at my local this past Monday and lost to Burn twice, having left Leyline of Sanctity at home and failed to consider Circle of Protection: Red as an Enlightened Tutor target from the sideboard.

With your list, I can see boarding out 2x Thoughtseize and the Engineered Plague, but what else? Seems like you want the 4x Leylines and maybe also maybe Vindicate as an extra out against permanents that do 4-6+ to us like Eidolon and Sulfuric Vortex...

Part of my reluctant to bring Leyline was fear of flipping it up with Bob. So yeah, thoughts?

[Mirrislegend]

@danpo: Timely Reinforcements is a lot stronger than it looks at first glance. Especially if your build is low on creatures, Timely really stops a lot of decks dead in their tracks.

[tescrin]

Will be trying out weathered wayfarers in the next day or two.
EDIT: He's complete garbage. If the game becomes more mid-rangey and such I could see it.. maybe. Still, he's a weak topdeck and a do-nothing about half of the games. I saw him nearly every game of a 4-round tonight and he fetched maybe two lands; both in games where I was already stable; which is a problem. if I have stable mana, why do I need a durdley 1-drop who draws me lands?

[Ganfar]

Hey! Iam from Sweden(Sorry for maybe bad english) and have played Deadguy Ale for three years

I playde this list at "Eternalkungen", one of the large legacy-tournaments i sweden. There were 75 and hall of fame Olle Rade was one of them! I went 5-1-1 and got to top 8. We split the prizes at top8, the clock was 2:00 a.m. and everyone was tired.

Main:
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Thoughtseize
3 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Council's Judgment

3 Zealous Persecution
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Lingering Souls
2 Mirran Crusader
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Batterskull
4 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
4 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Bayou
3 Wasteland
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains

SideBorad:
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Tormod´s Crypt
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Garruk Relentless
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Duress
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Garruk Relentless are in the main deck but the meta was UR-delver and Elves so 3 Zealous Persecution in main was metacall.

Why I have [card] in deck?

3 Tidehollow Sculler

I really like this card. The EU is more unfair and more combo so Tidehollow Sculler works in the meta. I like it more then Hynm. Hynm can't not carry a sword and is dead in late game.

2 Mirran Crausader
The big beater in the deck. Really good at carry swords and wins games. AB can't kill him and elves can't stop him. I have outrace a Progenitus with a Mirran with Jitte.

1 Council´s Judgement
I had 3 Abrupt Decay before but AD can't take big threat like Jace. 1 Council´s Judgement so you can take care of Jace.

3 Lingering Souls
This is my favorite card and it's really strong card. It good against delver decks and carry swords. A must I think in this deck.

3 Zealous Persecution
Zealous is only batter with lingering souls and other creatures. I have won many games against elves with this card or a combat trick to finsh the game with spirit tokens,

Sideborad
3 Leyline of Sanctity
Combo and burn is really bad matchup. Leyline stops both decks.

1 Garruk Relentless
This usally is in main but a quick meta call I have to switch places for one more Zealous Persexution. I have not played with Garruk a lot but I have always like Garruk even i have not played him. He make wolfs and punch a creature to the face to transform! I have seen Sorin, lord of innistarnd in other deadguy ales. I like Garruk more because Sorin only make dudes and make them stronger. Garruk can kill creatures witch sorin can without ulti.

The matches

It was a while and I remember some of what happen.

Match 1. Vs Elves

I met one of my friends at the first match. We both know our 75 cards and what the match-ups is about: Elves make quicky NO or combo of. The Deadguy Ale: Kill everything and have not four mana for NO. I took care of the little green men in both games so 2-0 to me.

Match 2. VS RUG delver

Lingering Souls is really good in this match up. There was some mistakes from my oppoent that led me to 2-0.

Match 3. Vs UR Delver


I met Olle Rade himself!

The first game I Thoughtseize and saw Delver, Bolts, Land and Treasure Cruise.
"Treasure Cruise" I told meself.
"Ah, you pick Treasure Cruise" said Olle Rade. *Puts the card in the graveyard*
"Wait, i didn't pick that."
*10 sec later*
"I pick Treasure Cruise"

I don't think the matchup is bad for my deck. I can grind them out. The biggste problem is Treasure Cruise.

Later in the game I played all of my Stoneforge Mytic and Olle can't stop a Batterskull to enter the battlefield.

Game 2:

I don't remenber but he flips Delver and hits me.

Game 3:

This game was really close. I SoP the wrong gut in the end, SoP Young Pyro instand for Grim Lavamancer. Really good games!

Match 4 Elves.

I met another Elves player and I was more experienced in this matchup.

Game 1:
I got all the removel so no eleves for NO.

Game 2: He got a greater start and start to combo off. He NO for Craterhoof, but when he search the deck he coundln't find it. The only Craterhoof in the main was in the graveyard and he sideboraded out the other one. He finds Reclamation Sage to kill my Batterskull. But i won the race with help with ZP.

Match 5 Bug Pod Nic-Fit.

In this game Mirran really shines! In Game 1 Nic-fit player has a Beast token and a Grave Titan. But I got a Mirran ith a Sword of Fire and Ice and wins the race. What can Nic-Fit do agasint a Mirran?

Game 2 I Got Mirran round 3 and Sword of Fire and Ice Equip on Mirran round 4. I won that game-

Match 6. MUD

One of my other friends, so I know what he was playing. MUD is not a bad match if you know it´s MUD in game 1. Void on 1 can be a problem but you can play around it. There were no good games. He mulls to 5 in both games with no action at all.

Match 7. ???

We draw to make top 8.

I really like my deck but it was ups and downs. I went 0-4 in GP Stockholm Day 2 Legacy.

I hope you enjoy and hope you have some opinion about the deck.

[tescrin]

I just wanted to post that my 3xTidehollow Sculler has been fantastic even against fair decks. He helps delay the game or key plays and with D&T being a premier fair deck and Delver decks often needing burn to finish you off; being able to make them waste it or get straight CA is nice.

[Ganfar]

I just wanted to post that my 3xTidehollow Sculler has been fantastic even against fair decks. He helps delay the game or key plays and with D&T being a premier fair deck and Delver decks often needing burn to finish you off; being able to make them waste it or get straight CA is nice.
I agree. Tidahollow Sculler don't die often, for me anyway. It's has given me a good advantage when I play it.

[Mr. Safety]

I've been on 2-3 sculler for ages, one of my favorites. Currently on 2 because I feel Stoneforge is a stronger white 2 drop overall and I am squeezing in a 3rd.

[sdematt]

I'll be trying this when I finally get done with exams...

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Tidehollow Sculler

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughtseize
2 Zealous Persecution
3 Cabal Therapy

3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Lingering Souls
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

4 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland
3 Scrubland
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Windswept Heath
1 Bayou



SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Timely Reinforcements
SB: 1 Zealous Persecution
SB: 1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Chains of Mephistopheles
SB: 1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
SB: 1 Absolute Law

[Megadeus]

Seems like a lot of high costing non creatures for a Thalia deck

[sdematt]

I agree, which is why I'm trying it. But, Thalia is SO good against the Cruise decks...I'm wondering if it is worth the sacrifice. Lingering Souls and Thalia are obviously a non-bo, but they're ideally for different matchups.

Thalia could go back to board to come in for Souls against UR, but what to fill the hole with in the main and then what to take out of the side? Playing Timely maindeck might just be too deep, but...

-Matt

[Megadeus]

No. I see where you where coming from. I've been hotly thinking about 3x Thalia in the main to fight cruise/combo, I just haven't had the balls to try it (also our meta is too weird to give an accurate description). I thought about it earlier tonight, but I think I'm going to try Scullers since everyone Seems to be very high on it right now. I'm glad that I'm not the only one with this same thought process though. I've also toyed with the idea of playing Thalia with ancient tomb just to "offset" her ability recently.

[tescrin]

If you're doing that, I'd use a Moxen (either Diamond if you squeeze 1-2 loam, or Chrome because stuff.) You're in a bob deck and T1 Bob/Thalia/DRS+Discard are all stellar openers.

I really like Thalia + Lily against combo; it's just really hard to swing in a fair MU. Chrome may be alright as a 2-of; as some posters a few pages ago were saying. I remember the MtgSalvation primer says it's the differentiation between BW Deathblade and DGA; so it must've worked at some time.

[Megadeus]

Your testimonies about Sculler have spurred me to try him again. Here's the list I'm going to test. The Darkblast was awesome in modern so I'm trying it out here. The spell bomb was from Kotters article suggesting it. I think it might be alright as a 1 of.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Dark Confidant
2 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Tomb stalker

4 Thought seize
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Darkblast
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Vindicate
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawas Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
3 Lingering Souls
1 Zealous Persecution

3 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
1 Bayou
2 Isolated Chapel
2 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Wasteland

SB:
3 Kor Firewalker
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Rest in Peace
1 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Perish
2 Disenchant
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Orzhov Pontiff

[tescrin]

I'm a big fan of Spellbomb in the side; I'll be interested if it treats you well in the main. I know I liked Bojuka Bog when I was running a KotR deck; so it can't be that bad. I too have been fiddling with singleton Darkblast; usually if I'm in a list that feels weak to D&T. When I saw an opposing Delver deck use it on a Bob, the VCA against me was a big deal. I imagine it's better as a VCA device than a kill card; except maybe against elves where they have no choice.

[Megadeus]

I'm a big fan of Spellbomb in the side; I'll be interested if it treats you well in the main. I know I liked Bojuka Bog when I was running a KotR deck; so it can't be that bad. I too have been fiddling with singleton Darkblast; usually if I'm in a list that feels weak to D&T. When I saw an opposing Delver deck use it on a Bob, the VCA against me was a big deal. I imagine it's better as a VCA device than a kill card; except maybe against elves where they have no choice.

Right. It's like punishing fire. Against us, fire is a real beating. idk. I don't get too test much anymore, but I think it seems alright in theory. The more I think about fire walker, the more I like it. It's a man who not only gains some life versus burn, but it also doesn't die to punishing fire or bolt, plus carries a weapon past elemental tokens

[maharis]

I'm a big fan of Spellbomb in the side; I'll be interested if it treats you well in the main. I know I liked Bojuka Bog when I was running a KotR deck; so it can't be that bad. I too have been fiddling with singleton Darkblast; usually if I'm in a list that feels weak to D&T. When I saw an opposing Delver deck use it on a Bob, the VCA against me was a big deal. I imagine it's better as a VCA device than a kill card; except maybe against elves where they have no choice.

Darkblast + Top + Souls + Therapy is such a sweet package, I am trying to find the optimal numbers of each.

Also I am super jealous that you have the time to play Legacy and be in a power metal band, cool stuff! My 3-year-old is really into putting Rhapsody on iTunes and pretending to hunt a cave monster (played by me), so that's about as close as I get.

[Megadeus]

So I went 3-1 with my list tonight. Beating Fish, UR Delver, and UB Tez. Losing a tight one to burn. I'm honestly considering cutting Bob entirely. I only played 3 tonight and it never really did much. I also crushed DnT about 5 times in a row before the tournament in testing. Am I being blasphemous? Darkblast was insane. I'm debating going to 2 Blast, 2 Stalkers, and maybe something else? Fourth lingering souls. I don't know. Bob has just been underwhelming.

[maharis]

So I went 3-1 with my list tonight. Beating Fish, UR Delver, and UB Tez. Losing a tight one to burn. I'm honestly considering cutting Bob entirely. I only played 3 tonight and it never really did much. I also crushed DnT about 5 times in a row before the tournament in testing. Am I being blasphemous? Darkblast was insane. I'm debating going to 2 Blast, 2 Stalkers, and maybe something else? Fourth lingering souls. I don't know. Bob has just been underwhelming.

I agree that Darkblast is an insane card right now and it's time to examine some synergies with it. With regard to Bob, I definitely think it's worth looking at what Rock decks in Modern have been doing and sdematt's latest Legacy Rock build:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19432-Deck-The-Rock&p=855065&viewfull=1#post855065

Basically you try to out-value the blue decks instead of out-attrition them if that makes sense? The decks you played against are always good matchups for us, I think, Fish doesn't get the benefit of islandwalk, UR Delver can't beat equipment/souls, and Tezz can be clunky. It's when we're up against blue Stoneforge decks that things get wonky. It's also worth noting that Maverick doesn't play bob and has been putting up results.

There are some interesting packages that could replace Bob IMO:

4 DRS
4 SFM
4 Pack Rat
2 Tombstalker

Lots of discard + removal
3 Phyrexian Arena
3 Souls
Equips

Pack Rat gets value out of every draw (superfluous discard vs. fair decks, superfluous removal vs. combo) and Phyrexian Arena keeps the engine going. Plus you discard junk to Rat and then delve it out for Tombstalker. Could also play Mutavault with Rats though Wasteland is a good card for delve. And of course Darkblast feeds Tombstalker.

Or:
4 DRS
4 SFM
X Jotun Grunt
X something else (kitchen finks? blade splicer?)
2-3 Restoration Angel

Grunt is good against Treasure Cruise decks that are filling their GY rapidly, though more than 2 of them is a little scary. Restoration Angel can reset it and if you get another good ETB card in there you're always getting lots of value. Draw/selection engine here should probably be Top + Darkblast so you can ensure you hit your land drops to cast Restoration Angel and dredge away stuff you don't need to feed the Grunt.

Could also play Mom alongside Bob.

[Megadeus]

Good point. I do like grunt, but having to eat your own yard with it will come up then make Stalker tough to cast. I'll have to try some stuff. Maybe a third Sculler. I agree that I played some positive match ups. Even with his main board Smash to Smithereens (somewhat suspicious since the guy randomly happened to have a main board Grafdiggers cage against his round one dredge opponent), I still felt good. I'm not a huge fan of pack rat, but maybe it's alright. Mainboard fire walker is probably a bit weak

[Rizso]

Considering try out the card Oppression in my sideboard combining with chains and Spirit is really punishing against the lowtreat heavy cantrip strategies.

[GrimDog]

So I went 3-1 with my list tonight. Beating Fish, UR Delver, and UB Tez. Losing a tight one to burn. I'm honestly considering cutting Bob entirely. I only played 3 tonight and it never really did much. I also crushed DnT about 5 times in a row before the tournament in testing. Am I being blasphemous? Darkblast was insane. I'm debating going to 2 Blast, 2 Stalkers, and maybe something else? Fourth lingering souls. I don't know. Bob has just been underwhelming.

You did not crush me 5x in a row jerk face :tongue:


But yea...fuck darkblast

[Megadeus]

Sorry. Maybe like 4 times... The single main board ZP was pretty good. I can't think of a match up that I don't want to see (barring the turn 1 combo decks). Maybe burn, but fire walkers help out. The Deck seems well positioned, especially after you get a couple of Scullers in there.

[sdematt]

FYI: I've cut Bob from Junk and so far it's been testing very well. He's too fragile in a meta FULL of Forked Bolts and Electrickeries. I've been riding the Phyrexian Arena high and it's been splendid.

I'll be trying out:

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Beefier creature, no idea yet

3 Phyrexian Arena
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine/Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Lingering Souls
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Zealous Persecution
2 Darkblast
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy

-Matt

[Megadeus]

FYI: I've cut Bob from Junk and so far it's been testing very well. He's too fragile in a meta FULL of Forked Bolts and Electrickeries. I've been riding the Phyrexian Arena high and it's been splendid.

I'll be trying out:

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Beefier creature, no idea yet

3 Phyrexian Arena
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine/Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Lingering Souls
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Zealous Persecution
2 Darkblast
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy

-Matt

Similar to my list. I'm Still on liliana at the moment and 2 Tomb stalker as my beefy man. Batterskull is pretty alright at being a "beefy threat". I'm not completely sold on arena yet though. Abd in place on therapy, I'm running Scullers

[Ganfar]

FYI: I've cut Bob from Junk and so far it's been testing very well. He's too fragile in a meta FULL of Forked Bolts and Electrickeries. I've been riding the Phyrexian Arena high and it's been splendid.

I'll be trying out:

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Beefier creature, no idea yet

3 Phyrexian Arena
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine/Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Lingering Souls
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Zealous Persecution
2 Darkblast
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy

-Matt

Maybe 3 rhinos? I have thought to test sieges rhino in deadguy, maybe work with your list.

[MBSegal]

I'm honestly considering cutting Bob entirely. I only played 3 tonight and it never really did much. I also crushed DnT about 5 times in a row before the tournament in testing. Am I being blasphemous?

Hehe. Go back like ten months when I said that about Bob and everybody said I was being dumb. Also, DnT has always felt like a bye to me as long as your StP can hit their Mirran Crusaders or Serra Avenger. Not sure how many Zealous Persecutions you play though.

[tescrin]

I was quite happy with Bob before cruise shuffled everything up. It's basically only decks like TA (and even they are running more removal now) and D&T that I can reliably get him to trigger. I was thinking of adding Moms in my Lily slots before my hiatus (I'll be playing again in a couple weeks.) The issue with running Mom + Bob I think is that you're adding yet-more 1-toughness to guard against the 1-toughness meta problem.

I think the general DRS + SFM + Sculler is the new "base", where we stick to a bunch of x/2s (and bigger) to stay above water. I worry about Matt's removal config and his Miracles game. I've been playing around with Thopters a bit and I could see matt's list with an extremely lite blue splash, 1x Sword of the Meek, 3 Thopters in the slots missing. (I realize that's a bit blasphemous as well.) Maybe those take up Lingering Slots and the Beef slots stay the way they are. I just think Thopters >>> Souls and if you're not greedy about the splash you won't feel it. It's a serious trump card to Miracles where Souls is a speed bump.

Otherwise, I could see Warden of the Beyond (4/4 vigilance for 3) possibly taking up the beefy slot. It's not amazing, but it's color light almost-batterskull on paper. I think Tombdaddy is well positioned for this slot as well.

I think the ZP should be a Pontiff; just because he's less useless in games that go weird, can hit twice, and can carry a sword. ZP is an easier to use card, but I think Pontiff (as far as 1-ofs go) is better. The haunt trigger is better/easier than it looks next to a Jitte or something. He also triggers easily off of therapy (SEGWAY!) I've been looking at therapy more and I think Matt's list looks good for it. It's just disruption density (2-in-1) that makes it attractive, turning something useless into a thing. Time to start getting good at the game I guess.


I'm surprised he's had success with arena. I guess I can dig mine out (I bought them for Invasion Block Junk in Block Wars :P.) I hope they shake up the ban list come January, as I know I'm not the only one deeply saddened to see Bob start falling off of the last lists he truly belongs in.


Given the above I think I'd modify it to:

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Tombstalker
1 Orzhov Pontiff

3 Thopter Foundry
3 Phyrexian Arena
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Darkblast
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
2?


It's worth noting that Pontiff being a 1/1 also synergizes with Foundry (sometimes you lose your sword and have to card-neutral it back out), and Foundry can turn Sculler into Perma-exile or give you a 1/1 in place of just losing him flat out to removal.

EDIT: It looks like 39 cards + 22 lands would be the config; can't tell.

[sdematt]

I was quite happy with Bob before cruise shuffled everything up. It's basically only decks like TA (and even they are running more removal now) and D&T that I can reliably get him to trigger. I was thinking of adding Moms in my Lily slots before my hiatus (I'll be playing again in a couple weeks.) The issue with running Mom + Bob I think is that you're adding yet-more 1-toughness to guard against the 1-toughness meta problem.

I think the general DRS + SFM + Sculler is the new "base", where we stick to a bunch of x/2s (and bigger) to stay above water. I worry about Matt's removal config and his Miracles game. I've been playing around with Thopters a bit and I could see matt's list with an extremely lite blue splash, 1x Sword of the Meek, 3 Thopters in the slots missing. (I realize that's a bit blasphemous as well.) Maybe those take up Lingering Slots and the Beef slots stay the way they are. I just think Thopters >>> Souls and if you're not greedy about the splash you won't feel it. It's a serious trump card to Miracles where Souls is a speed bump.

Otherwise, I could see Warden of the Beyond (4/4 vigilance for 3) possibly taking up the beefy slot. It's not amazing, but it's color light almost-batterskull on paper. I think Tombdaddy is well positioned for this slot as well.

I think the ZP should be a Pontiff; just because he's less useless in games that go weird, can hit twice, and can carry a sword. ZP is an easier to use card, but I think Pontiff (as far as 1-ofs go) is better. The haunt trigger is better/easier than it looks next to a Jitte or something. He also triggers easily off of therapy (SEGWAY!) I've been looking at therapy more and I think Matt's list looks good for it. It's just disruption density (2-in-1) that makes it attractive, turning something useless into a thing. Time to start getting good at the game I guess.


I'm surprised he's had success with arena. I guess I can dig mine out (I bought them for Invasion Block Junk in Block Wars :P.) I hope they shake up the ban list come January, as I know I'm not the only one deeply saddened to see Bob start falling off of the last lists he truly belongs in.


Given the above I think I'd modify it to:

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Tombstalker
1 Orzhov Pontiff

3 Thopter Foundry
3 Phyrexian Arena
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Darkblast
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
2?


It's worth noting that Pontiff being a 1/1 also synergizes with Foundry (sometimes you lose your sword and have to card-neutral it back out), and Foundry can turn Sculler into Perma-exile or give you a 1/1 in place of just losing him flat out to removal.

EDIT: It looks like 39 cards + 22 lands would be the config; can't tell.

Thopter Foundry seems interesting. I think everyone is so used to running it in blue shells that we haven't broken ground running it in solid black white. Interesting. Let us know how it goes! I think Thopters is very well positioned.

-Matt

[Megadeus]

The one unfortunate thing about foundry isthat you needblue mana to cast it

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Won't DRS suffice the majority of the time? This is where Chrome Mox is straight junk.

[Megadeus]

Won't DRS suffice the majority of the time? This is where Chrome Mox is straight junk.
I mean, you don't have consistent access to blue mana, and you're playing three of them. You obviously simply can play some blue duals, but the thing I love about this deck is getting to play basics.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

You only really need one blue source one time, right? Run one dual and/or run a basic Island and go heavy on blue fetches.

[Megadeus]

Meh. I'm not saying it's bad. But if you're going through that trouble you should be playing another fairly decent blue card that I won't mention.

[tescrin]

Meh. I'm not saying it's bad. But if you're going through that trouble you should be playing another fairly decent blue card that I won't mention.

I kinda agree, but there is something to be said about blue counts. If you run a mere 3 cards you only need a couple of lands outside of fetches. If you want to run 7 cards the number of times you need blue goes up drastically. I don't disagree that it'd be weird to not go full-bore (and that it's super obnoxious that the card requires blue) but there is something to be said for not needed blue and merely using it (maybe.)

I think the argument of:
-Run 3 Foundry
-Well.. you're in blue so run 4 BS
-Well... you're 7 cards deep, that's only 4 other cards that aren't FoW to support it
-Well... you're 15 cards deep, you should swap a couple of non-blues to make FoW reliable

While the Slippery Slope argument is a fallacy; it tends to be true when building decks in Legacy (because the mana bases are so manipulable. Even so, I really only want to swap 2-3 basics with their blue versions and get a card that deals with Miracles. Then again, that slippery slope looks immediately attractive for Cruise.

C'est la vie.

EDIT: My point is merely, I think we can do it without going full Esper Deathblade.

[Rizso]

Monastery Mentor looks like a quite a card especially if playing with Top, probe / therapy in the deck.

[sdematt]

Monastery Mentor looks like a quite a card especially if playing with Top, probe / therapy in the deck.

I agree, I think he's really interesting. He doesn't fit into a blue cantrip shell, as Shawn was suggesting, but might not be terrible with Therapies and stuff. I approve.

-Matt

[Rizso]

If ever untap with 2 tops and the monk is GG :P

[Megadeus]

I agree, I think he's really interesting. He doesn't fit into a blue cantrip shell, as Shawn was suggesting, but might not be terrible with Therapies and stuff. I approve.

-Matt
That man is awesome. Excited to try him out

[Rizso]

Yet an other strong human for Cavern of Souls

[tescrin]

So I tried out my goofy list to a 2-0-2 finish against BUG Fit, RUG Delver, D&T, and Lands; which is alright.

Thoughts:
-Arena needs 2 draws to be as good as Bob untapping once. Why? Because Bob does something (attacks, equips, etc..) Arena helped but I don't know about it. It seems quite bad. I was never happy to see two and thinking back, I'm sure there were situations where I could've equipped and not being able to costed me. Being unable to set up the draws to avoid life loss is a bit annoying too. Also, extremely relevant is that it gets hit by Notion Thief and SotL, both of which happened last night. I'd avoid this card if I were you.

-Being able to run Tombstalker is awesome. He is quite the critter. Landed him every MU and (except when fighting Lage) he was great. If you're not running Bob, I think it's time to run this guy. His huge CMC played a big role as did his flying.

-I still like Pontiff over ZP for a 1-of. He does much of the same thing but with the bonus of sometimes doing it twice or carrying a sword.

-I'm not a fan of having such low counts of removal, especially one as conditional as Darkblast. It may be better in a large tournament..

-BSK is a nice thing but I have a very hard time knowing when to fetch him vs. Jitte vs. Meek. It always feels wrong and games I win with it, it'd be fine as almost any sword. My meta carries an ok amount of things that he trumps (and quickly) but I think the opportunity cost is not worth it if you have other big beaters.

-Thopter combo came out almost every game (except one that I stalled 7-ish turns against active Marit Lage and needed it or a Plow badly.) It was not always a winner due to SoFaI/Revoker or Deed, but I liked the tricks with Sculler, Top, and itself as a way to eek out mild value in odd situations. The life gain is quite relevant

I don't know what Arena will become. I think the list wants planeswalkers so I might head to Tezz-town or something (in which case I'll report elsewhere.)

[Rizso]

Quite sure im gonna try out the Elder Pyromancer with tops. Havent really liked top just for the sake of them but with that guy drawing 2 tops will pretty much take over the game and end it the turn after.

[Ricflairwoo]

So I tried out my goofy list to a 2-0-2 finish against BUG Fit, RUG Delver, D&T, and Lands; which is alright.

I still like Pontiff over ZP for a 1-of. He does much of the same thing but with the bonus of sometimes doing it twice or carrying a sword.

I don't know what Arena will become. I think the list wants planeswalkers so I might head to Tezz-town or something (in which case I'll report elsewhere.)

Thanks for the pontiff suggestion! I have a b/w list I've been playing on mtgo and it's been an awesome addition.

I'd try chains instead of arena. I've been very impressed with it in my week and a half of testing on mtgo.

Here's my list.

2 Ancient Tomb
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
1 Swamp
2 Plains
3 Cavern of Souls
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Baneslayer Angel
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Containment Priest
2 Flickerwisp

3 Lingering Souls
2 Council's Judgment
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
2 Enlightened Tutor

1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

3 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Moat
1 Parallax Wave
1 Engineered Plague

2 Rest in Peace
1 Pithing Needle
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Trinisphere
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Tower of the Magistrate
1 Absolute Law
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Engineered Plague
1 Containment Priest
1 Grafdigger's Cage

[maharis]

Pontiff is freakin insane. What a card.

[MBSegal]

Funny how people often shoot out untested stuff and then this bombshell of a deck does alright on MTGO and nobody brings it up :)

Leaving it here for y'all to look at. Really interesting decisions going on.


http://www.starcitygames.com/article/30077_Daily-Digest-Confusing-Ale.html

[Wilkin]

Funny how people often shoot out untested stuff and then this bombshell of a deck does alright on MTGO and nobody brings it up :)

Leaving it here for y'all to look at. Really interesting decisions going on.


http://www.starcitygames.com/article/30077_Daily-Digest-Confusing-Ale.html

I don't play MTGO so I don't know the strange brews that happen there, especially if they stay on MTGO.

But it has maindeck Shriekmaw so it can't be all that bad. :) I approve. Too bad it can't really fit in Bob anywhere (guessing human or elves are the most likely names with Engineered Plague) and Phyrexian Arena is a definite no no with 3 Chains and a Spirit main.
It's definitely worth having a look at it. Especially if there are no changes to the Ban/unban list.


Played at a local FNM. Anyone who goes 4-0 gets a dual land. Went 3-1. Boo urns. Tried a maindeck Chains. It was awesome. Lot of combo running around, i unfortunately went heavy anti-delver and promptly didn't face any. Hero of Bladehold is still a machine. And Shriekmaw was awesome vs Burn. Eidolon of the Great Revel. That's nice. Tried a Pontiff in the board, never saw it vs Jeskai Ascendancy (my loss).

So probably going to add more hate bears to the board. Not sure which ones.

[Ricflairwoo]

I cut the shriekmaw after the 1st week of testing. I think if i cut the cute 4 drops it could fit a few to make it work. Plague could be sb, and honestly I don't think I really want dark confidant against u/r delver. It could be great in some other match ups. I'm in the daily right now and I'm 2-1. Testing -2 revoker -1 land -1moat +2 spirit, +1 mana tithe +1 priest(back to 3 mb). I cut back down to 24 lands but I added an ancient den to be able to grab off of e-tutor. As cute as parallax wave seems, it's actually been really good. I'm interested in trying hero of the bladehold. I think I might cut baneslayer and give it a try in the 4:30 daily.



I don't play MTGO so I don't know the strange brews that happen there, especially if they stay on MTGO.

But it has maindeck Shriekmaw so it can't be all that bad. :) I approve. Too bad it can't really fit in Bob anywhere (guessing human or elves are the most likely names with Engineered Plague) and Phyrexian Arena is a definite no no with 3 Chains and a Spirit main.
It's definitely worth having a look at it. Especially if there are no changes to the Ban/unban list.


Played at a local FNM. Anyone who goes 4-0 gets a dual land. Went 3-1. Boo urns. Tried a maindeck Chains. It was awesome. Lot of combo running around, i unfortunately went heavy anti-delver and promptly didn't face any. Hero of Bladehold is still a machine. And Shriekmaw was awesome vs Burn. Eidolon of the Great Revel. That's nice. Tried a Pontiff in the board, never saw it vs Jeskai Ascendancy (my loss).

So probably going to add more hate bears to the board. Not sure which ones.

[Wilkin]

Hero is awesome. I have one main and its usually a 2 turn clock. Won four games with her at grand Prix jersey.

[Valech]

After a few weeks of abstinence I just wonder if I get it right, that the current motion is to drop the bob?

[Wilkin]

I'd say no Valech. For that deck that was posted on Starcitygames by Gerry T, it totally makes sense to drop Bob since Engineered Plague is very likely to name Human. I would say if you are doing a prison like build, Bob should be cut, unless you like to live dangerously with 4 drops and Ancient Tombs.

But I will say Bob is not as good right now because of UR Delver decks. A burn deck with Forked Bolts kinda hurts. I also find Lingering Souls to be not as good in the meta at the moment. Crap, Liliana of the Veil and Hymn to Tourach too.

On the bright side, Stoneforge is still awesome :). And Shriekmaw and Hero of Bladehold for me are still very good.

[Valech]

I'd say no Valech. For that deck that was posted on Starcitygames by Gerry T, it totally makes sense to drop Bob since Engineered Plague is very likely to name Human. I would say if you are doing a prison like build, Bob should be cut, unless you like to live dangerously with 4 drops and Ancient Tombs.

But I will say Bob is not as good right now because of UR Delver decks. A burn deck with Forked Bolts kinda hurts. I also find Lingering Souls to be not as good in the meta at the moment. Crap, Liliana of the Veil and Hymn to Tourach too.

On the bright side, Stoneforge is still awesome :). And Shriekmaw and Hero of Bladehold for me are still very good.

thank you for the reply. Out of stoneforge, bob, lili and hymn I´d pick stoneforge as my least favorite :/ But as always it´s just a matter of time till they print something, that breaks the meta and may make my favorite cards a bit more playable again.

[ironclad8690]

Hey guys,

I don't know if this qualifies as Deadguy Ale, but I have been playing it on Cockatrice and it has been doing surprisingly well:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Spirit of the Labyrinth
2 Hero of Bladehold

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Zealous Persecution

3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Lingering Souls

3 Liliana of the Veil

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Mox Diamond
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

2 Swamp
2 Plains
3 Scrubland
1 Savannah
4 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Ancient Tomb

SB: 2 Council's Judgment
SB: 3 Choke
SB: 3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 3 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Engineered Plague


Anyone want to help me work on this deck?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Creatures

Spells

Land

Sideboard

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

[ironclad8690]

Alright, update from my earlier post.

I have tuned the list a little bit and removed some of the nonbos.

Here is my current list:

Ale Stax/Ale Stompy/Deathstax/Deadblade/Aleblade/Spirit Stompy

Creatures: 16
4 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
4 Lingering Souls

Equips: 3
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Removal: 6
4 Abrupt Decay (could be Orzhov Charm for increased stability, but I haven't run into mana problems yet)
2 Zealous Persecution

Disruption: 11
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Hymn to Tourach (I think there has to be something better in this slot, might try Revoker or Tidehollow Sculler)

Ramp: 2
2 Mox Diamond

Lands: 22
2 Swamp
2 Plains
3 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
4 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
3 Ancient Tomb

Sideboard:
3 Choke
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Engineered Plague (probably should be something else)
2 Council's Judgment

The deck is very fun and plays a little bit like Sylvan Plug, but with more traditional Rock/Deadguy Ale influences. It looks piss poor on paper but give the deck a try. You will be surprised. I am currently trying to fit in a Karakas and perhaps a basic Forest.

Current testing records:

Miracles: 2-0
Grixis Control: 2-1
Reanimator: 2-0
BUG Delver: 2-0
RUG Delver: 1-2 (lost the roll, nut draw game 3 with 2 dazes and a Force to protect 2 Jeff Goldblums).

[maharis]

I like the deck. I've tinkered with some similar ideas but never gone too far.

Urborg seems like a good way to turn off Ancient Tomb if you need and cast Liliana/Hymn?

[ironclad8690]

I like the deck. I've tinkered with some similar ideas but never gone too far.

Urborg seems like a good way to turn off Ancient Tomb if you need and cast Liliana/Hymn?

That would be solid!

Also, Dark Deal (http://i.tcgplayer.com/95379.jpg) from Fate Reforged might be better than Hymn to Tourach considering how many Spirit of the Labyrinths we play. Of course the dream is curving Spirit into Dark Deal against any deck that cares about it's hand size, but Dark Deal is also quite good against Stoneforge Mystic (they play mystic, fetch equip like Batterskull, you can Dark Deal the equipment away on your turn 2/3).

[Rizso]

That would be solid!

Also, Dark Deal (http://i.tcgplayer.com/95379.jpg) from Fate Reforged might be better than Hymn to Tourach considering how many Spirit of the Labyrinths we play. Of course the dream is curving Spirit into Dark Deal against any deck that cares about it's hand size, but Dark Deal is also quite good against Stoneforge Mystic (they play mystic, fetch equip like Batterskull, you can Dark Deal the equipment away on your turn 2/3).

If 2 mana is to much then defenetly 3 mana is to much.

[ironclad8690]

If 2 mana is to much then defenetly 3 mana is to much.

It's not a matter of too much mana, it's a matter of "has enough of an effect vs combo".

[Wilkin]

Treasure Cruise is banned. Oh yeah.


Dark Deal? Sounds bad since it's a bad card by itself and is only good if you have Chains/Spirit out. To get rid of the Batterskull in hand, I'd much rather have a one mana discard spell. Although.....if you were to brew a Black/white prison deck, you could maybe have a Dark Deal out and see how it goes.

[Valech]

Treasure Cruise is banned. Oh yeah.


Dark Deal? Sounds bad since it's a bad card by itself and is only good if you have Chains/Spirit out. To get rid of the Batterskull in hand, I'd much rather have a one mana discard spell. Although.....if you were to brew a Black/white prison deck, you could maybe have a Dark Deal out and see how it goes.

Banned like in... banned banned? Today is a good day.

[Wilkin]

Yep Treasure Cruise is banned. Worldgorger Dragon is unbanned.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Yeah, they had to do something to get Stifle back in the format.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

[Rizso]

welcome back the power of Wasteland, Lililana, Hymn and Thoughtseize to its former glory :D

[Klirre]

Hi!

I'm quite new to the forum, but I've been playing Deadguy and competitive legacy for around 6 months now. It all started several years ago when i wanted a BW deck to use among friends and since then I've collected most of the useful cards for the deck.

The reason I'm posting here is that I, like many others, want some feedback on my current list. Since TC was introduced I realised how hard it was to play with hymns etc, so I modified my list more towards DnT. Now with the recent ban the hymns are back in maindeck but I still quite like Thalia, mom and the rest.

My list looks like this:

Creatures (21)
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
4 Mother of Runes
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Mirran Crusader
3 Serra Avenger

Instants/Sorceries (11)
3 Thoughtseize
2 Council’s Judgment
2 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares

Artifacts (7)
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa’s Jitte

Lands (21)
4 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
2 Karakas
2 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland

Sideboard(15)
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Warmth
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Rest in Peace
1 Pithing Needle
1 Absolute Law
2 Containment Priest
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

1 Empty SB slot (atm. it's a mindbreak trap, but just 1 is not very efficient)

The board is made for my local meta, which consists of BUG, RUG, DnT, Storm, miracles, Reanimator, Omnitell, Elves, Burn, Patriot and lately some maverick and infect.
Since I'm not a veteran of any kind I lose quite a bit to all of the decks, but somehow it feels that the faster decks like burn and rug are hard to beat. BUG is also a tricky one, since it's attacking me from all directions at once (discard, destroy etc).

The big question for me right now if it's worth keeping the deck in this form, maybe adjust the number of some cards, or modify it completely. The two ways of changing the deck as I see it is either continuing the transition toward mono white DnT or go back to my previous junk-coloured builds using DRS, Decay, maybe sylvan library and so forth.

In which way have you improved your decks? Do you have any opinions about mine?

[Wilkin]

Hmmmm...a hybrid of Death and Taxes and Deadguy. I've always considered building something like that... So your list, 21 lands isn't that much, especially if say you have a Thalia out and you want to cast Council's Judgment.

-Also 21 creatures seems a bit light for an Aether Vial deck. I would suggest taking out the Council's judgment and the Hymns. And maybe move the Thoughtseizes to the board. As for creatures to put in. Flickerwisp and Phyrexian Revoker are 2 good ones. A brimaz as well perhaps.
Curious, you still lose to burn even with Warmth and Absolute Law? Wow. I don't play anything that hateful. Burn still isn't a great matchup for me but I do alright.



With Cruise out of the picture, the meta is kind of what it was just before that. I expect more Deathrites, so I added a Disfigure to the board. Worked out great. I considered having another Zealous Persecution but having another one mana removal is better for the curve. Plus, I play plenty of board wipes anyway.

[Klirre]

Hmmmm...a hybrid of Death and Taxes and Deadguy. I've always considered building something like that... So your list, 21 lands isn't that much, especially if say you have a Thalia out and you want to cast Council's Judgment.

-Also 21 creatures seems a bit light for an Aether Vial deck. I would suggest taking out the Council's judgment and the Hymns. And maybe move the Thoughtseizes to the board. As for creatures to put in. Flickerwisp and Phyrexian Revoker are 2 good ones. A brimaz as well perhaps.
Curious, you still lose to burn even with Warmth and Absolute Law? Wow. I don't play anything that hateful. Burn still isn't a great matchup for me but I do alright.



With Cruise out of the picture, the meta is kind of what it was just before that. I expect more Deathrites, so I added a Disfigure to the board. Worked out great. I considered having another Zealous Persecution but having another one mana removal is better for the curve. Plus, I play plenty of board wipes anyway.

Thanks for your input! I made a preliminary list based on your ideas:

Creatures (26, prev. 21)
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
4 Mother of Runes
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Mirran Crusader
*2 Serra Avenger (reduced from 3)
*3 Flickerwisp
*3 Phyrexian Revoker

Instants/Sorceries (4, prev. 11)
4 Swords to Plowshares

Artifacts (7)
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa’s Jitte

Lands (23, added two basics)
4 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
2 Karakas
3 Plains
2 Swamp
4 Wasteland

Sideboard(15)
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Warmth
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Rest in Peace
1 Pithing Needle
1 Absolute Law
2 Containment Priest
2 Zealous Persecution
3 Thoughtseize

I removed the hymns and CJ:s, moved thoughtseizes to SB and removed one Serra Avenger since Flickerwisp has flying. 3 wisps and 3 revokers + 2 basics added to main.

I removed the Sword of Feast and Famine and Grafdigger's Cage from SB since both have similar copies in main or SB (SoFaI and RiP).
I will test this version on cockatrice, and probably buy the cards I need since it's only a couple of revokers and flickerwisps. I decided to keep the burn hate for now, maybe it's just me doing bad decisions while facing the deck :P

[dragonwisdom]

Your dead to combo with this list. I mean if you don't drop Thalia, you just die. And skuller is also too slow to stop combo in legacy

I would dump vial all together and add a few lands

I would not cut hymm and thoughtsieze. I would even add Inquisition in addition. I would put back Council Judgement and perhaps add Vindicate.


If your plan is to feast on fair decks and then beat combo in the board, I can get behind the list, but otherwise I always have a balanced game1 approach.

But everyone has a different strategy.

[Megadeus]

Sculler + Thalia + Revoker ? You have game against combo. Maybe add like 3 Thought seize and you'll be fine. Seize also helps in the match ups against blade decks

[Klirre]

I've still got the seizes in the board but if you'd rather have them in main, what should be moved to SB?

Thanks to everyone for thier input, I had no idea that my deck would get so many comments :)

[dragonwisdom]

I've still got the seizes in the board but if you'd rather have them in main, what should be moved to SB?

Thanks to everyone for thier input, I had no idea that my deck would get so many comments :)



The top 4 combo decks in today's meta
Storm/Belcher, show and tell, Reanimator and Infect


You need to disrupt these decks on turn 1. Remember there are no counterspells in Dead guy, so it is a must to disrupt these decks on turn1. Currently, your deck disrupts them on turn 2 when your on the play and worse if you are on the draw. You could be dead by then or facing an Eldrazi or Griselbrand.

Def Cut sword of fire and ice and 2 flicker wisp for thoughtseize. I would cut aether vial, personally and then add Inquisition. Also 2 karakas is a bit greedy.

If you are not interesting in fighting these decks in gm1 effectively, than concentrate on Delver and it's variants, BUG, RUG, Jeskai Delver, Elves, Death and Taxes

[Klirre]

The top 4 combo decks in today's meta
Storm/Belcher, show and tell, Reanimator and Infect


You need to disrupt these decks on turn 1. Remember there are no counterspells in Dead guy, so it is a must to disrupt these decks on turn1. Currently, your deck disrupts them on turn 2 when your on the play and worse if you are on the draw. You could be dead by then or facing an Eldrazi or Griselbrand.

Def Cut sword of fire and ice and 2 flicker wisp for thoughtseize. I would cut aether vial, personally and then add Inquisition. Also 2 karakas is a bit greedy.

If you are not interesting in fighting these decks in gm1 effectively, than concentrate on Delver and it's variants, BUG, RUG, Jeskai Delver, Elves, Death and Taxes

Ok, thanks for your input. I think I'm going to try out the list I posted and see how things go. I only play in my local game store and I've never been killed T1 by any deck. Sure, no one is playing belcher, which might be one reason why. If I cut vial I'll make room for more discard, but then all my spells are open to counterspells from all the delver decks. a more detailed rundown of the local meta is something like this (last week at least):
Combo (6):
2 Infect
1 Omnitell
2 ANT
1 Elves

Delver/DnT etc (10):
1 DnT
2 RUG
1 Miracles
3 BUG
1 Maverick
1 Green Stompy
1 Patriot

With my current list (further up on this page) I met BUG - loss, Patriot - win, Infect - loss and RUG - loss. The infect match was the one I was closest on winning of the three lost ones.

One last question, how does DnT manage so well against combo? Is it the dedicated mana-denial plan (rishadan port)?

[Mirrislegend]

With the bannings, I'm reverting to a typical Deadguy splash green for Deathrite, Abrupt Decay, and SB options. I'm looking for some input in SB stuff.

My SB used to consist of:
3 Choke
3 Thalia
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Zealous Persecution
1 Manriki Gusari
2 Council's Judgement

With Pyromancer no longer running amok, I can probably cut one Persecution. However, it is a one card blowout vs Maverick, DnT, and Elves; swings most aggro matchups (which are rare, but possible); and beats Empty the Warrens hands from combo decks. So I'm loathe to cut more than one.

Anyways, I'm having trouble with BUG primarily. So I'll probably go -1 Zealous Persecution, +1 Mirran Crusader.

Does anyone have any lower CMC SB suggestions or just general advice for handling BUG?

[sdematt]

What's your maindeck like?

Also, Shardless BUG or BUG Delver? I assume since Shardless BUG is back moreso than Delver, you're talking about Shardless. The main problem with Shardless is Tarmogoyf is bigger than all your guys, they have sweepers in the form of Toxic Deluge, and Visions can have them pull very far ahead.

My suggestion is to run the Sword of Fire and Ice and the Sword of Feast and Famine. It gets around Goyf and all of their removal, essentially. With SoFF, you swing past EVERY creature in their deck, you can connect, and then untap all your stuff and keep running out more threats.

I'm not sure if you can truly be the grindier control deck than they are, so try to avoid their stuff: Maybe run Tasigur/Baneslayer to blank most of their removal, Lingering Souls is a great way to outgrind them, etc. I'm going to try the following:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughtseize
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Lingering Souls
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Council's Judgment

2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

4 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland
3 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Bayou

SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
SB: 2 Containment Priest

Thoughtseizes in the main could even just be more removal or something, since 6 pieces of discard should be enough in game 1, and you could always have something come out of the board.


-Matt

[Wilkin]

What's your maindeck like?

Also, Shardless BUG or BUG Delver? I assume since Shardless BUG is back moreso than Delver, you're talking about Shardless. The main problem with Shardless is Tarmogoyf is bigger than all your guys, they have sweepers in the form of Toxic Deluge, and Visions can have them pull very far ahead.

My suggestion is to run the Sword of Fire and Ice and the Sword of Feast and Famine. It gets around Goyf and all of their removal, essentially. With SoFF, you swing past EVERY creature in their deck, you can connect, and then untap all your stuff and keep running out more threats.

I'm not sure if you can truly be the grindier control deck than they are, so try to avoid their stuff: Maybe run Tasigur/Baneslayer to blank most of their removal, Lingering Souls is a great way to outgrind them, etc. I'm going to try the following:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughtseize
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Lingering Souls
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Council's Judgment

2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

4 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland
3 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Bayou

SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
SB: 2 Containment Priest

Thoughtseizes in the main could even just be more removal or something, since 6 pieces of discard should be enough in game 1, and you could always have something come out of the board.


-Matt



You may need to tweak the manabase. I only see only one green source, Bayou. Tasigur needs at least another green to activate his ability. Sure, you have Deathrites but you can't always count on them living.

As far as Shardless is concerned. It's a tough matchup. For me it's Lingering Souls and Hero of Bladehold that do the most damage vs them or a turn one Bob. LOL, maybe if they make a white hate bear that's either a Magus of the Moon or Back to Basics effect it would make things better.

[Wilkin]

I play with a Toxic Deluge and find it pretty good at wiping the board vs Shardless BUG. However, since you are going to use it to kill a Tarmogoyf, I can only really recommend playing one.

Never tried Mirran Crusader but I imagine it would be very scary for bug to deal with.

If your meta is infested with Shardless, maybe consider splashing blue in board for Notion Thief? I considered that when Treasure Cruise was running around. It's probably a very janky idea but it does answer Brainstorm, Jacestorming or Visions.

[maharis]

BUG is a tough matchup because they are playing a strong attrition game like us, but they have the additional power of Tarmogoyf and Brainstorm. They are a stronger Hymn deck to boot, and Hymn is really bad for us. However, we do have multiple tools that can help.

1) Wasteland -- these decks are super greedy so Wasteland is great against them. Conversely, we aren't as susceptible to wasteland as a 2 color deck

2) Lingering Souls -- this is a good weapon against their discard, and gives us a way to kill a Delver and/or fly over a TNN/Goyf with equipment

3) Mirran Crusader -- if you have a lot of BUG in your meta, I definitely recommend having a couple of these in your 75 as it forces their hand since they will die to it in a couple turns, especially if you have any equipment out

4) Sword of Feast & Famine -- makes every creature into a Mirran Crusader. Abrupt Decay is a pain, but if they are decaying your sword, other stuff is alive.

5) Tasigur -- a threat that can go toe-to-toe with Goyf. You might never activate his other ability though.

Another thing to note is that these decks tend to be threat-light, running only 12-14 creatures and nothing like Pyromancer, Souls or Stoneforge that pumps out combat value. STP & Liliana can keep their armies at bay. Not letting them have a Deathrite Shaman is paramount (or controlling theirs with ours). Creeping Tar Pit can be a thing, but requires them to tap 4 lands to activate (and we have 4 Wasteland).

Alternatively, you could just have them never draw anything good on camera like Megadeus did.

[BTY]

BUG is a tough matchup because they are playing a strong attrition game like us, but they have the additional power of Tarmogoyf and Brainstorm. They are a stronger Hymn deck to boot, and Hymn is really bad for us. However, we do have multiple tools that can help.

1) Wasteland -- these decks are super greedy so Wasteland is great against them. Conversely, we aren't as susceptible to wasteland as a 2 color deck

2) Lingering Souls -- this is a good weapon against their discard, and gives us a way to kill a Delver and/or fly over a TNN/Goyf with equipment

3) Mirran Crusader -- if you have a lot of BUG in your meta, I definitely recommend having a couple of these in your 75 as it forces their hand since they will die to it in a couple turns, especially if you have any equipment out

4) Sword of Feast & Famine -- makes every creature into a Mirran Crusader. Abrupt Decay is a pain, but if they are decaying your sword, other stuff is alive.

5) Tasigur -- a threat that can go toe-to-toe with Goyf. You might never activate his other ability though.

Another thing to note is that these decks tend to be threat-light, running only 12-14 creatures and nothing like Pyromancer, Souls or Stoneforge that pumps out combat value. STP & Liliana can keep their armies at bay. Not letting them have a Deathrite Shaman is paramount (or controlling theirs with ours). Creeping Tar Pit can be a thing, but requires them to tap 4 lands to activate (and we have 4 Wasteland).

Alternatively, you could just have them never draw anything good on camera like Megadeus did.

If you are just looking for a cheap body to beat/evade tarmogoyf tombstalker seems pretty good, especially if you don't think you will ever activate tasigurs other ability.

[maharis]

If you are just looking for a cheap body to beat/evade tarmogoyf tombstalker seems pretty good, especially if you don't think you will ever activate tasigurs other ability.

Right, Tasigur domes you for slightly less off of Confidant but Tombstalker is probably still better.

I don't think I'd be playing Confidant though... while I'm convinced Lili, Wasteland, and Hymn are back I'm not convinced Bob. Segal might have been right about that even before TC.

[Megadeus]

BUG is a tough matchup because they are playing a strong attrition game like us, but they have the additional power of Tarmogoyf and Brainstorm. They are a stronger Hymn deck to boot, and Hymn is really bad for us. However, we do have multiple tools that can help.

1) Wasteland -- these decks are super greedy so Wasteland is great against them. Conversely, we aren't as susceptible to wasteland as a 2 color deck

2) Lingering Souls -- this is a good weapon against their discard, and gives us a way to kill a Delver and/or fly over a TNN/Goyf with equipment

3) Mirran Crusader -- if you have a lot of BUG in your meta, I definitely recommend having a couple of these in your 75 as it forces their hand since they will die to it in a couple turns, especially if you have any equipment out

4) Sword of Feast & Famine -- makes every creature into a Mirran Crusader. Abrupt Decay is a pain, but if they are decaying your sword, other stuff is alive.

5) Tasigur -- a threat that can go toe-to-toe with Goyf. You might never activate his other ability though.

Another thing to note is that these decks tend to be threat-light, running only 12-14 creatures and nothing like Pyromancer, Souls or Stoneforge that pumps out combat value. STP & Liliana can keep their armies at bay. Not letting them have a Deathrite Shaman is paramount (or controlling theirs with ours). Creeping Tar Pit can be a thing, but requires them to tap 4 lands to activate (and we have 4 Wasteland).

Alternatively, you could just have them never draw anything good on camera like Megadeus did.
Having your opponent draw poorly is a sound strategy that I fully agree with.

That said, I think stalker is a great man against BUG. I haven't played much in a couple of months but what is the meta looking like? I can imagine it being pretty similar to the pre cruise meta for the most part.

[Mirrislegend]

I used to play Goyf in Deadguy and it felt pretty useless, even against BUG.

Rogue thought: Bring in Zealous Persecution out of the SB to counteract their Toxic Deluge?

[tescrin]

I used to play Goyf in Deadguy and it felt pretty useless, even against BUG.

Rogue thought: Bring in Zealous Persecution out of the SB to counteract their Toxic Deluge?

Not worth it IMO. As someone who loves using Deluge, I typically overpay on life by at least 1 (handles almost any pump even remotely playable in legacy.) It'll only work on a given opponent once while you're going to get the benefit of them paying extra life every game for the rest of your life. Equips deal with deluge pretty well if you have multiple (or the right one) since your threats are going to trump theirs (and they deluge'd to catch up/control.) I'd focus on getting equips down over trying to counter deluge.

[sdematt]

Agreed. Beat them with tricky stuff, even Perish could work

[Rizso]

Probly going back to my packrat concussion deadguy :p

Still want to run spirit of the lab and chains to punish the 70% of the format that still is gonna play blue.

[Wilkin]

Agreed. Beat them with tricky stuff, even Perish could work

Dang. Forgot about Perish. That's a good one too, only creature maindeck it doesn't kill is Baleful Strix. Well, I guess Tasigur too if they play it. A friend tried one in Shardless, it's really good.

And no Bob? It's still the MVP for me, especially when I get play it turn 1. That deck on Starcity I can totally understand it playing without Bob since Engineered Plague is likely to name human. Still hard for me to not play 4 Bobs since we don't really play any other forms of card drawing and/or manipulation.

Played a bunch after the Cruise banning. It's back to the same old same old. Canadian Threshold, Bug Delver, Shardless BUG, Miracles etc. Which I'm fine with. Played on camera at a Trios tournament back home (On a team where one person each plays Legacy, Modern and Standard). Beat Junk. Hopefully they covered some of my match....though I'm guessing they covered more of the Modern Match. Boo urns.

[jmlima]

Couple of questions, on which help is appreciated:

a) What is the consensus about the bad match-ups for this deck?

b) Can Cabal Therapy play a role in this deck? Or is it confined to versions that use a token strategy (ie Bitterblossom / Lingering Souls)? (reason for asking is that ANT for example, even without token generators still uses Cabal Therapy).

Thanks!

[tescrin]

Couple of questions, on which help is appreciated:

a) What is the consensus about the bad match-ups for this deck?

b) Can Cabal Therapy play a role in this deck? Or is it confined to versions that use a token strategy (ie Bitterblossom / Lingering Souls)? (reason for asking is that ANT for example, even without token generators still uses Cabal Therapy).

Thanks!

a) Combo, in general, is usually at best a 50/50 for non blue decks. They can simply "have it" and if you're interaction is too slow you lose. The fact you can't cantrip to powerful disruption is the other factor; leaving you heavily in the hands of the RNG.

b) There is misunderstanding here. ANT/TES use cabal therapy because they typically use Ad Nausium. With a deck who's average card cost is ~.75; losing 2 life is ~= 3 cards. Cabal Therapy is a Thoughtseize that hits multiples and occasionally gets use twice, while not costing them life. They can't use Duress due to hatebears, they can't use IoK due to FoW or Mindbreak Trap (and other similar cards) so they use Cabal therapy.

Further, they can guess what you're likely to have that actually interacts with them based on your colors, the meta, etc.. so they don't miss as often as you'd hope. They also run Probe to mitigate the issues of CT.


For DGA/Junk/etc.. having a 1-2 Cabal Therapy is fine next to the "stock" 4 thoughtseize. If you run Tidehollow Sculler you can actually support a 4/3/2 split and see their hand reliable before using cabal therapy. You'll often see CT lists use Probe due to it's obvious synergy; and I can say from experience that if you're using Delve creatures, (Tombstalker) the Probe->Therapy combo is very effective at filling your grave.

Therapy is at it's best in SFM/Delver metas where you can get free information and pin someone with it, especially late game where they get that SoFaI and you draw a DRS. Just play him, sac him, eat the sword, and buy a bunch of time.

Still, as powerful as the card is, you have to be a bit careful with the number of copies. It's something like:
# Hand-view effects : # Cabal Therapy's
4 : 1
7 : 2
10 : 3
11 : 4

if you want a 90% chance of having a Hand-View effect in your opener *given* you have a Cabal Therapy in your opener.

[Disclaimer: This may be wrong by a bit as I'm abusing the "cumulative multivariate hypergeometric distribution" found here (http://bopmtg-bopmtg.rhcloud.com//misc/mana-tables). Having not done the math myself, I'm merely "confident" that I can abuse the values both ways (by replacing "# lands" and "# colored cards" with "# hand view effects" and "# cabal therapy" and viewing the first "turn 1" table, since you care more about your opener. Anecdotal experience seems to imply that this abuse of their math works for other decks I've built)]

[hovercraft]

Honestly, you can play Cabal therapy really well without many hand view cards if you know your meta and opposing decks well. And remember that cabal therapy itself is a hand view card, even if your first one whiffs. It does definitely get better with tokens and such to sac for the flashback though.

Good article on it on CF from 2012:
http://www.channelfireball.com/home/legacy-weapon-therapy-session/

[Wilkin]

The only combo decks I really fear are the ones that consistently kill turn 1 like Belcher or oops. Storm is about 50/50. Reanimator and sneak are in my favor. As far as other problem decks. Burn, shardless bug and lol, anyone running punishing fire. As far as therapyvus concerned, I play one and it's fine. Used to play more but missing sucks.

[tescrin]

Honestly, you can play Cabal therapy really well without many hand view cards if you know your meta and opposing decks well. And remember that cabal therapy itself is a hand view card, even if your first one whiffs. It does definitely get better with tokens and such to sac for the flashback though.

Good article on it on CF from 2012:
http://www.channelfireball.com/home/legacy-weapon-therapy-session/
I agree, though I prefer to have information against fair decks since they're holds are less predictable and the Card Disadvantage from missing is a bigger deal


The only combo decks I really fear are the ones that consistently kill turn 1 like Belcher or oops. Storm is about 50/50. Reanimator and sneak are in my favor. As far as other problem decks. Burn, shardless bug and lol, anyone running punishing fire. As far as therapyvus concerned, I play one and it's fine. Used to play more but missing sucks.

I agree on the T1's, though if you go first and have TS/IoK/CT (and hit) you're typically fine IME. I stopped caring since Needle and 6 T1 discard deal with them, not to mention that they get hated out by the delver's anyway.

I agree on Storm (if your deck and side have the proper hate) and Reanimator. My experience with S&T varies heavily. My current usage of Revoker + Lily makes me more confident in the MU. (I've been using him since D&T was everywhere in my meta and him + Lily is basically as good as Karakas + Revoker.)

Elves also vary quite a bit for me. My occasional 1-of Pontiff, usage of Charms/ZPs, or Deluge have all contributed to varying degrees. That reclamation sage hurts though.

[jmlima]

Thanks for the info guys. Very informative and plenty of food for thought.

I play a BWg version, but very budget compared to other builds I see in here, since I do not have Wastelands or Lilianas, which is probably causing some issues with deck performance as I can get to a stalemate (amazingly even against fast combo), but very rarely can I win the grueling race to the end.

[MBSegal]

As far as bad match ups go, it really depends on your list.

I have played in six events in the last nine months, which is not a great sample size. But my only six losses were Elves, Elves, Belcher, Reanimator, Elves, Elves.

I found that D&T, Delver and Shardless are basically impossible to lose to if you play well as you just have higher impact cards and don't have a set up cost to anything other than Stoneforge Mystic, which still equalizes a card if they kill it.

Sneak Attack and Reanimation are about 50-50, Much harder to beat a Show & Tell than the other methods of putting a fatty into play.

A lot of people in this forum typically say Elves is a good match-up, and I think it is about 50-50 at best. Probably lower. As you can see here, I lose because the raw power of Natural Order and Glimpse of Nature... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoapntukBwQ

Also, Cabal Therapy sounds all fine and dandy, but I doubt you'd ever want it in the MD. In the SB, maybe, but they're are more hard-hitting answers.

[maharis]

As far as bad match ups go, it really depends on your list.

I have played in six events in the last nine months, which is not a great sample size. But my only six losses were Elves, Elves, Belcher, Reanimator, Elves, Elves.

I found that D&T, Delver and Shardless are basically impossible to lose to if you play well as you just have higher impact cards and don't have a set up cost to anything other than Stoneforge Mystic, which still equalizes a card if they kill it.

Sneak Attack and Reanimation are about 50-50, Much harder to beat a Show & Tell than the other methods of putting a fatty into play.

A lot of people in this forum typically say Elves is a good match-up, and I think it is about 50-50 at best. Probably lower. As you can see here, I lose because the raw power of Natural Order and Glimpse of Nature... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoapntukBwQ

Also, Cabal Therapy sounds all fine and dandy, but I doubt you'd ever want it in the MD. In the SB, maybe, but they're are more hard-hitting answers.

Do you play against Miracles often? If not, how do I find the events you play in?

[MBSegal]

Do you play against Miracles often? If not, how do I find the events you play in?

I find that Miracles is a match-up that revolves around two cards: Sword of Fire and Ice and Liliana of the Veil. I initially had a losing record against the deck, but once I learned the match-up, I have not lost since. There is a video somewhere of me playing against Joe Losset on his stream and winning actually. The match-up may be worse now that they have Dig Through Time, but if they continue to cut Entreat the Angels then I think we may be in business. It is probaby 45-55% in their favor. Revoker helps a lot postboard though.

[sdematt]

Are you playing Revoker over Needle because of Combo, because against Miracles, you likely REALLY want Needle.

-Matt

[Rizso]

Used to split Revoker with needle but moved to 2 needles and a stoney Silence instead. Reason for stoney its a wide card. Enchantment is a better permanent typ then artifact as stoneforge is artifact based anyway. Most needle targets are artifacts against many decks, stoney has the advantech to hose them random affinity decks but its mostly to hit both LED and Petals with just 1 card.

1 mana vs 2 mana for needle vs revoker is a big diffrence. Prefere needles, needles dont get massacred from reanimator decks or sworded / wrathed from a miracle deck.

[Wilkin]

Used to split Revoker with needle but moved to 2 needles and a stoney Silence instead. Reason for stoney its a wide card. Enchantment is a better permanent typ then artifact as stoneforge is artifact based anyway. Most needle targets are artifacts against many decks, stoney has the advantech to hose them random affinity decks but its mostly to hit both LED and Petals with just 1 card.

1 mana vs 2 mana for needle vs revoker is a big diffrence. Prefere needles, needles dont get massacred from reanimator decks or sworded / wrathed from a miracle deck.

So you do you side out a few equipment when you side in Stony Silence? Yeah, would definitely say it would a surprise if I were the opponent.

Needle is for sure much better vs Miracles than Revoker, which a Resolved Needle Miracles' only options are Wear/Tear or Council's Judgment. But for me it's hard to resist playing Revoker in the board. Disruption on a dude, hard to pass up for me. I've done alright lately vs Miracles but it's still annoying to play against. What's more annoying than that is one of the Miracles opponents' was new to Legacy. Geez. New to legacy and you try that deck?

And here is some evidence on why I think my matchup vs Elves is favorable. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFt0vxLfiqI
I usually lose game 1 vs Elves but win games 2 and 3. Game 3 ended with him having no permanents in play.

[Echelon]

And here is some evidence on why I think my matchup vs Elves is favorable. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFt0vxLfiqI
I usually lose game 1 vs Elves but win games 2 and 3. Game 3 ended with him having no permanents in play.

Because you had one round where your deck worked as planned and your opponents' didn't, twice?

By that logic my Manaless Dredge has an incredible MU vs. ANT, b/c I had this one round where I beat it... And so on vs. anything running RiP & friends in their SB. Uhm... Yeah... OMG, seriously.

[Wilkin]

Because having one round where you happen to draw whatever you need vs. an opponent that doesn't, twice is the only data you need for such an analysis?

In that case my Manaless Dredge should be the best deck ever vs. ANT, b/c I had this one round where I beat it... And so on vs. anything running RiP & friends in their SB. Uhm... Yeah... OMG, seriously.

Wow, someone's a bit hostile.

I rarely get to play on camera so I can't post any more streams/matches against Elves or anyone else. I'm favored over Elves. MBSegal posted that he hasn't done that well vs Elves, whereas I have. On the other hand, he's stated he's done very well Vs Miracles, whereas I haven't.

[Echelon]

Wow, someone's a bit hostile.

I rarely get to play on camera so I can't post any more streams/matches against Elves or anyone else. I'm favored over Elves. MBSegal posted that he hasn't done that well vs Elves, whereas I have. On the other hand, he's stated he's done very well Vs Miracles, whereas I haven't.

Meh, I just find your statement incredibly silly. Do remember I'm used to dealing with Lemnear over at the Elves!-thread (no offense, lol).

[Wilkin]

Ok, so while the match shown isn't typical of exactly what happens vs Elves, I do usually end up winning. I'm favored over Elves, I don't see why that statement is silly in the least. I usually don't beat the deck leaving them with no permanents but the end result is the same.


Trying out a COP:Red and an Enlightened Tutor for now as Burn is getting a bit more popular right now where I am. Do people here prefer COP:Red or Kor Firewalker? I went with COP: Red since I can tutor for other things in other matchups.

[Klirre]

Ok, so while the match shown isn't typical of exactly what happens vs Elves, I do usually end up winning. I'm favored over Elves, I don't see why that statement is silly in the least. I usually don't beat the deck leaving them with no permanents but the end result is the same.


Trying out a COP:Red and an Enlightened Tutor for now as Burn is getting a bit more popular right now where I am. Do people here prefer COP:Red or Kor Firewalker? I went with COP: Red since I can tutor for other things in other matchups.

Either COP:R or Absolute Law are the ones I've tried (both in Deadguy and DnT with black splash). I've found Absolute Law to be really good since it doesn't take any mana to protect my dudes. Sure, the burn player can still throw bolts in my face, but jitte or batterskull usually gains me enough life to win. Tried Warmth a while as well, but it only tends to drag out the games leaving me without creatures.

I have a question for you: Have you considered Mox Diamond instead of Chrome Mox? Pros/cons? Right now I'm thinking about running a coup of Tasigurs, but maybe a couple of moxes are better...

[Wilkin]

OK. Cop red can be a bit if a mana sieve. But I am worried about being burned out and people maindeck vortex...hoping to use vortex against them with cop red. Warmth and absolute law interesting too.

I only run 21 lands so I can't really run Mox diamond. I used to run mox diamond in junk and I felt u need at least 24 land to run that. I'm fine with chrome Mox, I only run 2. Used to run 3 but cut one out because deathrite took its spot. Drawing it late sucks but the early game acceleration is worth it.

Against merfolk I had turn 1 mystic both games for sofi.

[tescrin]

Trying out a COP:Red and an Enlightened Tutor for now as Burn is getting a bit more popular right now where I am. Do people here prefer COP:Red or Kor Firewalker? I went with COP: Red since I can tutor for other things in other matchups.

I wouldn't. Just make sure you have your SFMs, discard, Lilys, and Plows handy and you should be fine. They aren't a deck that's worth sideboard space and my experience has been that if you run a couple of basics/fetches and play well then you'll eek out your wins at a 60/40 or so. Make sure to plow your own guys if one is big and you're teetering and make sure that Lily/Jitte/Discard all get the nod. Play creatures in a way that makes them *need* to kill them as well. Early DRS, Sculler, SFM->BSK, whatever you need so they waste cards on the wrong targets.

I've also found that they're running less PoP's because the meta got messed up during Cruise and newbs are probably dealing with too much conflicting information.

[MBSegal]

A lot of hostility. Jeesh. I would not be surprised if Wilikin* has better Elves match up. He plays cards like Shriekmaw if I remember correctly. I play a much leaner list since Invitationals are often more combo and miracles heavy. As I said, depends a lot on your list.

[Mirrislegend]

I find that Miracles is a match-up that revolves around two cards: Sword of Fire and Ice and Liliana of the Veil. I initially had a losing record against the deck, but once I learned the match-up, I have not lost since. There is a video somewhere of me playing against Joe Losset on his stream and winning actually. The match-up may be worse now that they have Dig Through Time, but if they continue to cut Entreat the Angels then I think we may be in business. It is probaby 45-55% in their favor. Revoker helps a lot postboard though.

Could you please elaborate? I find that my dudes carrying SoFI get removed consistently and Liliana doesn't matter when they're playing off the top of their deck anyways. It's a rough matchup for me.

[sdematt]

You need SoLaS ideally, and Liliana against good players tends to be too late most of the time.

-Matt

[dragonwisdom]

Warmth is great against burn

[datanaga]

Hello all,

here is my current list based on cards I actually own, it is far from optimal:

main:
4x stoneforge
4x confidant
3x tidehollow sculler
2x mirran crusader
3x mother of runes

3x lingering souls
2x elspeth, knight errant
3x inquisition of kozilek
3x hymn to tourach
4x swords to plow
2x disfigure
1x zealous persecution
1x vindicate

1x jitte
1x batterskull
3x chrome mox

2x plains
2x swamp
4x marsh flats
4x scrubland
4x wasteland
1x urborg
3x windswept heath

sb:
3x helm of obedience
4x dark ritual
2x rest in peace
4x leyline of the void
2x enlightened tutor

I would like to hear your advices for the BW list.
Now I have feeling that my list is worse death and taxes list.

My long future plan is to cut moxes, add 1x bayou (actually dont have any) and 1x savannah (have two) and play deathrites instead. Is there any reason to play moxes over deathrites? Is it possible to play deathrites without any bayou?
I also would like to purchase 3 lilianas and play them over elspeths. Maybe council over vindicate too.

Thanks.

[Ralf]

Hello all,

here is my current list based on cards I actually own, it is far from optimal:

main:
4x stoneforge
4x confidant
4x tidehollow sculler
2x mirran crusader
3x mother of runes


I would play phyrexian crusader over mirran any day in your list. It will improve drastically your matchup against Red & White decks.
Even more if you are planning to go deeper in "black" with Lili's.

I know double strike is nothing to laugh about. But one shall not scorn at being bolt + plow + punish proof, as well.

It would mainly depend on your meta.

[datanaga]

I would play phyrexian crusader over mirran any day in your list. It will improve drastically your matchup against Red & White decks.


Sorry, I dont get it. How is phyrexian crusader good against RW decks? Which decks do you exactly mean? Burn, DnT, UWR stoneblade/delver, Boros burn, UWR miracles? To win with poison counters with power 2 creature is slow as hell. I would never play this creature in my list. Btw I play mothers to save my creatures from bolts and plows.
Did not you mean phyrexian revoker? It makes much more sense to me:)

My tournament meta is pretty wide, lot of tier 1 decks. ANT, DnT, various delvers, elves, some miracles too...
I have never played this deck in real tournament yet, because is unfinished in my eyes, I only tested it on cockatrice where BUG delver is really popular now.

[Wilkin]

Sorry, I dont get it. How is phyrexian crusader good against RW decks? Which decks do you exactly mean? Burn, DnT, UWR stoneblade/delver, Boros burn, UWR miracles? To win with poison counters with power 2 creature is slow as hell. I would never play this creature in my list. Btw I play mothers to save my creatures from bolts and plows.
Did not you mean phyrexian revoker? It makes much more sense to me:)

My tournament meta is pretty wide, lot of tier 1 decks. ANT, DnT, various delvers, elves, some miracles too...
I have never played this deck in real tournament yet, because is unfinished in my eyes, I only tested it on cockatrice where BUG delver is really popular now.

I agree. Since you play Mom, playing Mirran Crusader is fine.

So your list has Chrome Mox and has a ton of GY hate in the board. Love it already. lol. You could always have a miser Karakas in the main. Also maybe instead of the Vindicate you could have an Oblivion Ring as you have Enlightened Tutors in board.

You could always have Deathrites and Chrome Mox. I do. I love it and you have even more things to cast turn 1 like Sculler. You don't need the Bayou but I would highly recommend playing one if you do play Deathrites. It's something to consider (having Deathrites) since you have quite a few 4 drops. Since Treasure Cruise is gone it's back to the attrition wasteland, stifle etc. games.

Other than that, list seems fine to me. I've always wanted to put in the Helm kill in the board, let me know how it goes.

[Seraphix]

Looking for some feedback on this WBg list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Monastary Mentor

4 Throughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Lingering Souls
3 Liliana of the Veil

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire & Ice

4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
3 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Wasteland

SB wasn't tested and is purely speculative right now but the Green cards being considered are G. Teeg, Choke with E-tutor, and Krosan Grip.

The main looked ok to me on paper but we ran a few games and it felt...well, awful. It always seemed like I was drawing awkward combinations of cards. I don't know if it is because of poor deck design, inexperience (never played this archetype before), or too small a sample size. The deck went 0-6 against RUG and 2-1 against Miracles in pre-board games. Even the few games I won were like "how did I win this game?".

The Monastary Mentor is probably a bit dodgy, which I suspected going in, he's quite slow and when he's unopposed on the board you're often hellbent. Unfortunately I can't find another "bomb"-y card to fit in this slot. I tried Mirran Crusader (great man) but hitting WW was difficult. Other cards I'm considering here are Stillmoon Cavalier, Siege Rhino (Rhinos in every format?) or just more Souls. Maybe I'm undervaluing Souls but I want to play RIP in the board.

The mana in general doesn't seem great with the Green splash so maybe that has to go, it's sometimes hard to get Abrupt Decay mana and I ditched the 4th Wasteland for Urborg because I wasn't getting enough Black mana. Abrupt Decay seems too good not to play, though I know a lot of people here aren't.

I hope this doesn't come across as too scatterbrained or salty but I would appreciate any advice here.

[thefreakaccident]

If you're hellbent but want tokens, brimaz, king of oreskos could be to your liking.

[datanaga]

I agree. Since you play Mom, playing Mirran Crusader is fine.

So your list has Chrome Mox and has a ton of GY hate in the board. Love it already. lol. You could always have a miser Karakas in the main. Also maybe instead of the Vindicate you could have an Oblivion Ring as you have Enlightened Tutors in board.

You could always have Deathrites and Chrome Mox. I do. I love it and you have even more things to cast turn 1 like Sculler. You don't need the Bayou but I would highly recommend playing one if you do play Deathrites. It's something to consider (having Deathrites) since you have quite a few 4 drops. Since Treasure Cruise is gone it's back to the attrition wasteland, stifle etc. games.

Other than that, list seems fine to me. I've always wanted to put in the Helm kill in the board, let me know how it goes.

Thanks for advice. Yesteday I played this deck at small LGS tournament (14 people) for the first time, with these changes:

mb:
-1 mirran crusader
-1 vindicate
-1 inquisiton of kozilek
+ 1 oblivion ring
+ 1 tidehollow sculler
+ 1 polluted delta
sb:
-1 dark ritual
+ 1 zealous persecution

finished 3:1
lose to ANT, win against JUND, manaless dredge (mulligan to leyline is autowin) and RUG delver

about sb helm combo) my maindeck is favorable against fair decks, but there are many combo decks in my meta, in G2 and G3 I want to side out a lot of cards (mothers, swords, disfigures, elspeths, lingering souls etc.) so I prefer this type of combo sb now, still not sure about it and need more testing, maybe it is more cute than useful, for example I did not complete it yesterday, but RIP alone is very good against many decks.

[Mirrislegend]

The main looked ok to me on paper but we ran a few games and it felt...well, awful. It always seemed like I was drawing awkward combinations of cards. I don't know if it is because of poor deck design, inexperience (never played this archetype before), or too small a sample size. The deck went 0-6 against RUG and 2-1 against Miracles in pre-board games. Even the few games I won were like "how did I win this game?".

The Monastary Mentor is probably a bit dodgy, which I suspected going in, he's quite slow and when he's unopposed on the board you're often hellbent. Unfortunately I can't find another "bomb"-y card to fit in this slot. I tried Mirran Crusader (great man) but hitting WW was difficult. Other cards I'm considering here are Stillmoon Cavalier, Siege Rhino (Rhinos in every format?) or just more Souls. Maybe I'm undervaluing Souls but I want to play RIP in the board.

I use Batterskull as my bomb of choice. You could consider playing an extra one (or two) for this purpose. Also, Lingering Souls can carry the RUG matchups on its own, and turn your lonely equipments into game winners in the late game. So for your list, I would go -2 Monastery Mentor, +1 Batterskull, +1 Lingering Souls.

If you need a bomb to clock your opponent, rather than just control the board, Hero of Bladehold is a faster and Abrupt-Decay-proof Brimaz.

[Zllig]

I really wanna figure out a shell for Monastery Mentor. I already like putting Sensei's Top in Deadguy Ale, so he seems like the perfect fit for my kind of deck. So far I have this list and wanna try and tighten it up a bit.

Lands (21)
1 Bayou
1 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
3 Scrubland
2 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath

Instants/Sorceries (17)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Inquisition of Kozilek

Planeswalker (2)
2 Liliana of the Veil

Creatures (17)
3 Monastery Mentor
4 Mother of Runes
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang

Artifact (3)
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Things that I am suspect of:
-Gitaxian Probe, seems sweet with Cabal Therapy and Mentor but might be too cute. Worth noting it helps fuel delving Tasigur as well.
-Tasigur, powerful card however probably never going to activate it's ability. Really just running it as a black 1 mana Tarmagoyf, bit of a nonbo with Bob though
-Discard numbers, figure with 4 Probe and 3 Mentor I want to take advantage of the synergy with Therapy, but not sure about 3 Hymns and 2 IoK (IoK over Thoughtseize since I'm taking a lot of damage from Probe already)
-Wasteland, obviously an insanely good card but I have no real way to take advantage of the mana screw without Daze, Port, Thalia etc. It's also good with Tasigur, but maybe I just want more secure mana. Possibly mess with some Ancient Tomb/Urborg/Man lands for quick Mentors and Tasigurs. Also I don't have 4 Wastelands so I certainly wouldn't be unhappy about losing them for something else.

Gonna run the list through some games online see how I feel, haven't actually jammed any yet but I'm liking the way it looks so far.

[sdematt]

Ive been trying mentor with an Alesha shell in Dega and so far it hasnt been terrible. Its not crazy fast like in a probe shell, but the recursion is nice.

[Zllig]

This is what I ended up with after spending a few hours jamming games.

Lands (21)
1 Bayou
1 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
3 Scrubland
2 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath

Instants/Sorceries (17)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Inquisition of Kozilek

Planeswalker (2)
2 Liliana of the Veil

Creatures (17)
3 Monastery Mentor
4 Mother of Runes
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Gurmag Angler

Artifact (3)
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard:
1 Circle of Protection: Red
2 Containment Priest
2 Disenchant
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Zealous Persecution

Angler turned out to be better than Tasigur since I can't really ever reliably activate Tasigur, plus the Angler eats other Tasigurs and Goyfs so that was pretty sweet, basically just acted as a black Goyf. I got to combo off with Mentor and Tops a few time and it was fucking insane. I had 5 mana made a Mentor and 2 dudes, then next turn attacked for 19 damage (7/7, and 2 6/6s). Probes were insane when I had Therapy as expected, but were whatever when I didn't. Never really came up with Mentor. Still not sure about the discard suite, Hymn is really powerful but the 2 drop slot is so crowded. IoK was good, but I think it's just because I wanted more 1 mana things to do. Top was great as always and I was glad to have all of them, it is nice to make this deck less top deck dependent. I kind of wish I had some more spot removal, I really wish I had the option to play Abrupt Decay but I don't really want to have a worse mana base and turn into some junk deck. And as always I sure wish I could play ~8 Deathrite Shamans! (but who doesn't)

I very haphazardly threw the sideboard together and it was fine. I think going forward I might cut the Hymns for the 4th Mentor, since I found myself wanting to find him very often, and for 2 more IoKs. However, it was annoying to get my Mentor Force'd so I might switch back to Thoughtseize though that damage is going to add up. However, in the end I played against a few Grixis decks with Young Pyro and Cabal Therapy and they sure just felt better than what I was doing. That might just be because playing Brainstorm and Ponder is better than playing shitty white and black cards, who knows I'll probably just continue forcing something that is sub par.

[Seraphix]

If you're hellbent but want tokens, brimaz, king of oreskos could be to your liking.


I use Batterskull as my bomb of choice. You could consider playing an extra one (or two) for this purpose. Also, Lingering Souls can carry the RUG matchups on its own, and turn your lonely equipments into game winners in the late game. So for your list, I would go -2 Monastery Mentor, +1 Batterskull, +1 Lingering Souls.

If you need a bomb to clock your opponent, rather than just control the board, Hero of Bladehold is a faster and Abrupt-Decay-proof Brimaz.

I like both Brimaz and Hero but they require WW, which was hard to hit when I was looking to have BB + Green source every game.

I think I will try cutting Hymns for Scullers. Sculler isn't as devastating as Hymn but is still disruption and is a man/can carry a weapon. Furthermore this will make the mana more amenable to a WW creature. I will also look for a spot for the 3rd copy of Souls.

[tescrin]

I like both Brimaz and Hero but they require WW, which was hard to hit when I was looking to have BB + Green source every game.

I think I will try cutting Hymns for Scullers. Sculler isn't as devastating as Hymn but is still disruption and is a man/can carry a weapon. Furthermore this will make the mana more amenable to a WW creature. I will also look for a spot for the 3rd copy of Souls.

I only finally dropped my Scullers and that's in a *blue shell* I was still running them. They're quite nice. Anything none blue that can run them I think they're worth it. You'll be running SFM and disruption with a Sword is good stuff. They're a little lackluster for D&T/Maverick, but as long as you can CA them out of the game he's quite good in most other MUs; especially if they are low on removal and you're high on threats (deckwise.) E.G. Delver, Combo, and to a degree Shardless and friends. He's horribad against Jund or similar, but what can you do..?

There's a chance he's better in a Maverick shell if you have to deal with Jund, since KotR is such a house against them.

[Ralf]

Sorry, I dont get it. How is phyrexian crusader good against RW decks? Which decks do you exactly mean? Burn, DnT, UWR stoneblade/delver, Boros burn, UWR miracles? To win with poison counters with power 2 creature is slow as hell. I would never play this creature in my list. Btw I play mothers to save my creatures from bolts and plows.
Did not you mean phyrexian revoker? It makes much more sense to me:)


No.
I did mean "Phyrexian crusader" to your question about going deeper in "black". Cutting double W mana costs from your shell should be a starting point.
Save the Mom (that I would actually cut for DRS), phyrexian crusader is not as easy to remove as mirran crusader.

Is it really better to race life point instead of poison counter ?

At the first sight, one could say. Yes ! Definitely. Your opponent play fetches, you will always sneak a couple of damage points through a dark confidant, a SFM, a token, "you name it". But, your legacy opponent can also gain some life during a game 's life :
- you play STP
- your opponent could play some life gaining spells/equip (BSK)

Does legacy general meta is about removing poison counters ? No.

So basically, as much as I do get the point about life vs poison, all in all I would rather have a "hard to remove" creature in my legacy pack (regarding the meta) instead of racing life points at all costs. Why ?
- you'll never know what opponent you are going to face and poison counters will always be far harder to remove than gaining a bunch of life (legacy speaking)
- DGA has NO REACH. Period. Racing life point is more than often, useless, save the combo MU.
- Jitted Crusader could also be a T2 kill (if there were counters on it) or a T3 kills. I wouldn't call that SLOW.

Ok let's now look at phyrexian crusader vs mirran crusader (legacy wise):

1) Mirran hits harder because of the life race
2) Mirran is better with jitte equipped -> more counters on jitte
3) Mirran is better with BSK -> more life gain
4) Mirran can block Tarmo
5) Mirran can block BSK
6) Mirran is immune to decay
7) Mirran is immune to disfigure
8) Mirran is better against combo (life race)
9) Mirran cannot be blocked by green & black creatures

a) Phyrexian is immune to lightning bolt
b) Phyrexian is immune to forked bolt
c) Phyrexian is immune to punishing fire
d) Phyrexian is immune to chain lightning
e) Phyrexian is immune to path to exile and STP
f) Phyrexian is immune to pyroclasm/searing blaze/tarfire/rift bolt
g) Phyrexian can block Thalia
h) Phyrexian cannot be blocked by white and red creatures

Mirran has the better clock. No contest.
Phyrexian has the better immunity. No contest.

What I think:
- Regarding the black path you want to take, phyrexian would be easier to cast because you'll need a blacker mana base to be able to cast liliana.
- You should be playing combo (Helm + LLOV) MD not in the side. A friend of mine used to play the helm + LLOV combo. The combo is better MD. Why ? Because your opponent might anticipate another combo coming from the sideboard (Doomsday, Reanimator) or some anti hate card. You'll catch him harder on G3 by playing a fair deck
- DRS is better than MoM if you are playing the combo MD.

I guess my suggestions are way more documented, now.

In any case, have fun.

[datanaga]

No.
I did mean "Phyrexian crusader" to your question about going deeper in "black". Cutting double W mana costs from your shell should be a starting point.
Save the Mom (that I would actually cut for DRS), phyrexian crusader is not as easy to remove as mirran crusader.

Is it really better to race life point instead of poison counter ?

At the first sight, one could say. Yes ! Definitely. Your opponent play fetches, you will always sneak a couple of damage points through a dark confidant, a SFM, a token, "you name it". But, your legacy opponent can also gain some life during a game 's life :
- you play STP
- your opponent could play some life gaining spells/equip (BSK)

Does legacy general meta is about removing poison counters ? No.

So basically, as much as I do get the point about life vs poison, all in all I would rather have a "hard to remove" creature in my legacy pack (regarding the meta) instead of racing life points at all costs. Why ?
- you'll never know what opponent you are going to face and poison counters will always be far harder to remove than gaining a bunch of life (legacy speaking)
- DGA has NO REACH. Period. Racing life point is more than often, useless, save the combo MU.
- Jitted Crusader could also be a T2 kill (if there were counters on it) or a T3 kills. I wouldn't call that SLOW.

Ok let's now look at phyrexian crusader vs mirran crusader (legacy wise):

1) Mirran hits harder because of the life race
2) Mirran is better with jitte equipped -> more counters on jitte
3) Mirran is better with BSK -> more life gain
4) Mirran can block Tarmo
5) Mirran can block BSK
6) Mirran is immune to decay
7) Mirran is immune to disfigure
8) Mirran is better against combo (life race)
9) Mirran cannot be blocked by green & black creatures

a) Phyrexian is immune to lightning bolt
b) Phyrexian is immune to forked bolt
c) Phyrexian is immune to punishing fire
d) Phyrexian is immune to chain lightning
e) Phyrexian is immune to path to exile and STP
f) Phyrexian is immune to pyroclasm/searing blaze/tarfire/rift bolt
g) Phyrexian can block Thalia
h) Phyrexian cannot be blocked by white and red creatures

Mirran has the better clock. No contest.
Phyrexian has the better immunity. No contest.

What I think:
- Regarding the black path you want to take, phyrexian would be easier to cast because you'll need a blacker mana base to be able to cast liliana.
- You should be playing combo (Helm + LLOV) MD not in the side. A friend of mine used to play the helm + LLOV combo. The combo is better MD. Why ? Because your opponent might anticipate another combo coming from the sideboard (Doomsday, Reanimator) or some anti hate card. You'll catch him harder on G3 by playing a fair deck
- DRS is better than MoM if you are playing the combo MD.

I guess my suggestions are way more documented, now.

In any case, have fun.

Thanks for interesting thoughts. Playing helm MD is something I have never considered, because it seems bit fragile and inconsisten, also relaying on 5 mana spell (helm + activation) is scarry. Maybe it needs full playset of helms, rituals and also some ancient tombs. With helm MD it makes much more sense to play phyrexian crusader over mirran crusader.

[thekmind]

Hi everyone! First time posting here and hoping for you guys to help me out on my list.
I'm more on the control style of play with Deadguy and I think my list reflect that.

I won a little 8 man local tournament today winning against Merfolks, Miracle, Maverick and Dredge, losing only against BUG, but I think my list could be much better. No storm deck so far in my meta.

Here's my list (I haven't played for over a year so my list is kinda old):


4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
3x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Hero of Bladehold

2x Thouthseize
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Lingering Souls
2x Vindicate
4x Swords to Plowshares

3x Liliana of the Veil
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant

2x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Batterskull

4x Wasteland
4x Scrubland
1x Bayou
3x Swamp
2x Plain
1x Forest
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Marsh Flats
1x Karalas
1x Urborb, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Current sideboard is almost all Tutor package:
3x Enlightened Tutor
2x Choke
2x Rest in Peace
2x Humility
2x Leyline of the Void
1x Circle of Protection: Red
1x Oblivion Ring
2x Abrupt Decay

Hero is nice, but a bit slow and hurts when I flip her from a Confidant without the top, but it happened very rarely so far. I saw the Mirran Crusader suggestion above and might be the card to make the clock quicker once I get a soft "lock" on my opponent.
1 additional Elspeth might be good since I rarely draw her and when I do I almost always end up winning or just nailing the coffin.
Vindicate could be replaced by Abrupt Decay mainboard, but I just love blowing basiclands on turn 3.
I could swap a Kozilek for a third Thouthseize for a better catch-all but I hate to pain myself even more.
CoP:R in my sideboard is for the burn deck we have here.

Humility was my MVP today against almost every matchup except Miracle. I just love the card (I usually side out Heros for them)

Opinions?

[datanaga]

Hello all,

are we able to build something to be called BWg deadguy "stock list" regardless to any specific meta - like others established archetypes?

There are big differences between lists posted here which confuses me a lot, because Im fan of netdecking and playing full playsets:)

I may try it, but I dont have enought experience with this exact archetype, please help me identify numbers of FLEX slots .

CORE cards are (in my eyes):

4x deathrite shaman
4x dark confidant
4x stoneforge mystic

4x swords to plowshares
3x liliana of the veil
3x lingering souls
1x umezawas jitte
1x batterskull

1x sword of X and Y

? x other creatures
? x thoughtseize
? x hymn to tourach
? x inquisition of kozilek
? x cabal therapy
? x abrupt decay (vindicate, council of judgement)

4x wasteland
4x scrubland (only 3x maybe)
1x bayou
1x savannah
8x fetchland (4x marsh flats)
2x swamp (or 1x swamp and 1x urborg)
2x plains (or 1x plains and 1x karakas)


differences between other JUNK archetypes:

Maverick plays thalias, zeniths and knights - more aggro route
Rock plays tarmogoyfs - similar route
Nic fit plays veteran explorers, therapies, deeds and rhinos - more control route

[datanaga]

My last MD configuration, thoughts are welcomed:

4x deathrite shaman
4x dark confidant
4x stoneforge mystic
3x tidehollow sculler
3x mother of runes
1x mirran crusader
--------------
19 creatures

4x swords to plowshares
3x liliana of the veil
3x lingering souls
3x inquisition of kozilek
3x hymn to tourach
1x umezawas jitte
1x batterskull
1x sword of fire and ice
--------------
19 noncreature spells

4x wasteland
4x scrubland
1x savannah
1x bayou
8x fetchland (4x marsh flats)
2x swamp
1x plains
1x urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
--------------
22 lands

[Dihensoeur]

Hi all,
I'm new and finished 15/89 players (5-2) in a big tournament with this list (I think it can be called Deadguy Ale because it's BW Confidant no?):

1 Scrubland
2 Karakas
2 Swamp
2 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Marsh Flats
4 Plains

1 Hero of Bladehold
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Mirran Crusader
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Rest in Peace (should be Sensei divining top but no received from mail)
2 Disfigure
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek

Sideboard:
1 Cataclysme
1 Containment Priest
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Disenchant
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Council's Judgment
1 Duress
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Pithing Needle
1 Thoughtseize

R1: Grixis (0-2)
R2: Jund (2-1)
R3: Patriot (0-2)
R4: Death&Taxes (2-1)
R5: UR Delver (2-0)
R6: Burn (2-0)
R7: Omnishow (2-0)

Regards,
Dihensoeur

[Tokugawa]

Goyf get reprinted. :wink:

Personally(already MD decays), I would stop pretending to believe MCrusader/Brimaz/Hero are good clocks, then fit 3-4 goyfs into the deck.

[datanaga]

Goyf get reprinted. :wink:

Personally(already MD decays), I would stop pretending to believe MCrusader/Brimaz/Hero are good clocks, then fit 3-4 goyfs into the deck.

If its price will drop significantly, I would like to do same, how many bayous and stfm you will be playing?
With goyf in deck it is not deadguy anymore but rock.

[sdematt]

Feel free to stop by The Rock thread ;)

-Matt

[DudeItsCorey]

It's funny how the lines are blurred between all the Abzan decks. I blame Return to Ravnica with Deathrite Shaman being printed, along with Abrupt Decay to a certain extent. The lists are as follows

G/W/b- Maverick
W/B/g- Dead Guy Ale
G/B/w- The Rock/Junkblade.

[Tokugawa]

If its price will drop significantly, I would like to do same, how many bayous and stfm you will be playing?
With goyf in deck it is not deadguy anymore but rock.

Have 2 Bayou 1 Savannah now, could adjust to 2/2. Would keep 4 copies of Sfm, but cut 1 lingering souls(from 4 to 3).

What is the difference between traditional "junk" and "rock" decks? Even with goyfs put in, green would still be the 3rd color of our deck.

[Krimson Viper]

Hello all,

are we able to build something to be called BWg deadguy "stock list" regardless to any specific meta - like others established archetypes?

There are big differences between lists posted here which confuses me a lot, because Im fan of netdecking and playing full playsets:)

I may try it, but I dont have enought experience with this exact archetype, please help me identify numbers of FLEX slots .

CORE cards are (in my eyes):

4x deathrite shaman
4x dark confidant
4x stoneforge mystic

4x swords to plowshares
3x liliana of the veil
3x lingering souls
1x umezawas jitte
1x batterskull

1x sword of X and Y

? x other creatures
? x thoughtseize
? x hymn to tourach
? x inquisition of kozilek
? x cabal therapy
? x abrupt decay (vindicate, council of judgement)

4x wasteland
4x scrubland (only 3x maybe)
1x bayou
1x savannah
8x fetchland (4x marsh flats)
2x swamp (or 1x swamp and 1x urborg)
2x plains (or 1x plains and 1x karakas)


differences between other JUNK archetypes:

Maverick plays thalias, zeniths and knights - more aggro route
Rock plays tarmogoyfs - similar route
Nic fit plays veteran explorers, therapies, deeds and rhinos - more control route


I'm interested in this answer as well?

[sdematt]

Maverick is midrange, typically with Knight as the backbone (not Goyfs), with a large GSZ package and lots of small support creatures.

Nic Fit is what I'd consider most Rock - big bomby threats, lots of removal, and not much else. Doesn't usually play typical threats like Goyf or Knight.

Junk is the BGW midrange deck usually with Goyf, SFM, Dark Confidant, Sylvan, Hymn, etc. Essentially Jund, but white instead. Could be considered a Maverick-like deck with more removal and fewer threats.

Deadguy is what I'd say the most aggro out of all of the decks. Back in the day, you'd play a really great tempo game with Ritual, Sinkholes, Negators, STP, Shade, etc. Nowadays, it has shifted more into the midrange saddle. You run more small creatures like Maverick, but similar disruption to Junk but without or with little green. Deadguy and Junk are likely the closest.

-Matt

[datanaga]

Hi, yesterday I played this list at my weekly LGS legacy tournament:

4x deathrite shaman
4x dark confidant
4x stoneforge mystic
3x tidehollow sculler
3x mother of runes

4x swords to plowshares
2x abrupt decay
2x thoughtseize
2x inquisition of kozilek
2x hymn to tourach

3x liliana of the veil
2x lingering souls

1x umezawas jitte
1x batterskull
1x sylvan library

4x wasteland
4x polluted delta (suboptimal i know:)
4x windswept heath
4x scrubland
1x bayou
1x savannah
2x swamp
1x plains
1x urborg, tomb of yawgmoth

SB:
2x hymn to tourach
2x canonist
1x teeg
2x surgical extraction
1x nihil spellbomb
1x cataclysm
2x zealous persecution
1x disfigure
1x sofi
1x revoker
1x abrupt decay

I dont remember all decks, but what I know for sure there were about 20 people and meta was like:

3x punishing jund
2x ant
2x miracles
2x burg delver
1x ur delver
1x uwr delver
1x bug delver
1x burn
1x mud
1x 12post
1x death and taxes

dont rememember details of each game but resut was
R1: MUD
2:1 - lili is the best here

R2: punishing jund
2:0 - i was lucky as heaven, because this is nightmare matchup, punishing fire punish all my small creatures

R3: punishing jund again
0:2 - as expected, no close games

R4: burg delver
2:0 - my list is pretty good against delver decks
--------------------------------
total 3:1

Next time I need more extirpates/surgicals in my SB for punishing fire, or maybe RIP.

btw I lent my typical burn deck to my friend and he also finished 3:1 (I was really afraid of got paired with him:)
he played against ur delver (win), uwr delver (win), burg delver (win) and ANT (loose)

[DudeItsCorey]

So I have all the parts to build pretty much any Green, White, Black deck and a friend of mine convinced me that Dead Guy Ale is a very underrated deck and could catch people off guard. I ran punishing Jund last week and there was so much burn that it was a nightmare. I was thinking of going back to Maverick (old faithful for me), but still wanted to play with Lily, hymn, bob, etc. I wrote up a Junk Blade list, but as I mentioned, my friend convinced me to try dead guy ale and this is what I have put together. I believe our worst matchups are Punishing Jund, Storm, Elves, Turn 1 decks (opps all spells, beltcher, Tin Fins) and Burn, which is what I catered my sideboard towards. The Mirran are there because BUG is the "deck to beat" and swinging with him when equipped is the greatest thing ever. Let me know your thoughts:

4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland
2 Bayou
2 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Karakas
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Savannah

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
2 Mirran Crusader

4 Swords to Plowshare
4 Lingering Souls
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

SIDEBOARD
2 Rest in Peace
2 Duress
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Choke
1 Perish
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Chains of Mephistopheles

[sdematt]

Instead of COP Red, which uses up all your mana, I might suggest playing Timely Reinforcements, even if over 1 Lingering Souls. 6 Life is a huge swing, especially against Burn.

I'd definitely play Rest in Peace over Extirpate/Surgical, especially if you're trying to nuke Punishing Fires. They can return the Fires and since it's a trigger, it gets around Extirpate. Just be careful. Once they have two Groves, it shuts off your Extirpates. It also neuters their Goyfs, so no big deal there.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Lingering Souls
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

4 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland
3 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Bayou


SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad/Elspeth
SB: 2 Containment Priest

This is what I drafted right around Treasure Cruise getting nerfed. Even with all the spells, I don't think Thalia's a bad card. Even if, it's easily switched for the Decays between main and board.


-Matt

[Valech]

For which Matchups do you board in SOrin and what do you board out?

[Tokugawa]

You can target Groves instead of Punishing fire with your Extirpate:wink:

[datanaga]

I'd definitely play Rest in Peace over Extirpate/Surgical, especially if you're trying to nuke Punishing Fires. They can return the Fires and since it's a trigger, it gets around Extirpate. Just be careful. Once they have two Groves, it shuts off your Extirpates. It also neuters their Goyfs, so no big deal there.
Thanks for information, I did not know this.

decklist)
Not sure if 20 lands is enought for 61 cards, because with Thalia in play your curve is bit higher.
If you want to activate Tasigurs ability, I would definitely add more green sources and also Karakas could be useful with all your legends.

[pocari79]

Went to a legacy tournament this weekend. Only 15 players showed which I kind of expected as there were 4 other tournaments the same day which is kinda insane. Decided to play deadguy and copy wilkin's latest and greatest:

4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
3 Swamp
2 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bayou
1 Plains
1 Karakas
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Shriekmaw
1 Hero of Bladehold
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Lingering Souls
2 Vindicate
1 Council's Judgment
1 Cabal Therapy
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Chrome Mox
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Duress
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Disfigure
1 Containment Priest

Yes the sideboard feels like a mess but apparently it's working so I can't say much about it. I really wanted a Pithing Needle the entire day though so we could -1 Phyrexian Revoker, +1 Pithing Needle. It was also my first tournament with the deck so I wasn't too sure how well I would do as I've never played with Stoneforge until now.

Anyway, 15 player so it was cut to top 4.

Round 1 - Punishing Jund (Loss 1-2)
Wow this matchup felt super bad. Felt like he had removal whenever he needed it and Bloodbraid always cascaded into something relevant.

Round 2 - UR Landstill (Win 2-1)
This matchup also felt super bad but I felt like I was super fortunate. Game 2 I was on the play and was able to resolve a turn 1 Stoneforge and it actually lived to the 2nd turn and I landed a turn 2 Batterskull. Game 3 he landed a standstill and I had to break it with a Thoughtseize and saw that he didn't draw that great so played a Dark Confidant. He kills the Dark Confidant on his turn and I slam a Stoneforge on my turn and he had no counter or removal for that.

Round 3 - Infect (Win 2-1)
Game 1 was miserable as all the spells I played were 3cc so all of his dazes and pierces became live. Don't really remember game 2 as I felt I was always in control. Game 3 ended with him never drawing colored mana and he conceded the game with 0 permanents on board at around turn 4~5ish.

Round 4 - Mono Green Chalice/Ramp (Win 2-0)
Got another turn 1 stoneforge, turn 2 batterskull in game 1 and killed him before he could cast Primeval Titan. Game 2 he was able to cast a Chalice on 2 stranding a Hymn and Stoneforge in my hand but I was able to waste his land, blow up his Crucible and discarded all relevant spells in his hand and he just conceded.

So went 3-1 and ended up 6th. SAD TIMES. Need to stop losing round 1 cause my tiebreakers were horrible. On the other hand, the other 3 people in my car all made top 4 so that was pretty good. But other than that, the deck feels great and I'm loving the chrome moxes.

[Wilkin]

Of note, unfortunately there was a bit of a mishap, it's actually +1 Inquisition of Kozilek main, and -1 Hymn to Tourach. So we weren't carbon copies at the tournament, but 74/75 is pretty close. :D Went to same tournament, 3-1, made top 4 split.

Sideboard is a bit wacky but it worked out great for me.

Oh and I also feel a bit of vindication when I was told Pocari79 imprinted Vindicate on Chrome Mox at least 4 times. Pocari and my other friends always make fun of me when they see me do that. Maybe a little less now. Feels good to cast Stoneforge turn one eh?

[Sunday Funday]

Of note, unfortunately there was a bit of a mishap, it's actually +1 Inquisition of Kozilek main, and -1 Hymn to Tourach. So we weren't carbon copies at the tournament, but 74/75 is pretty close. :D Went to same tournament, 3-1, made top 4 split.

Sideboard is a bit wacky but it worked out great for me.

Oh and I also feel a bit of vindication when I was told Pocari79 imprinted Vindicate on Chrome Mox at least 4 times. Pocari and my other friends always make fun of me when they see me do that. Maybe a little less now. Feels good to cast Stoneforge turn one eh?

Will continue to make fun. Will still question the inclusion of chrome mox in the deck even if it leads to turn 1 stoneforge.


lol.

[PBorn]

Hi folks,

Long time reader of the forums, first post! I'd like to share my list with you, and hope you can give me some feedback on card choices and especially the sideboard.
This is the list I'm running at the moment. (I have no idea if the card tags will work, bear with me)


4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Scrubland
1 Isolated Chapel
3 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Wasteland
1 Bayou

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tidehollow Sculler

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Council's Judgment
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Lingering Souls
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

Sideboard


2 Engineered Explosives
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Path to Exile
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Containment Priest
2 Perish
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

Now, I'm fairly happy with the main board. The misers Sensei's Divining Top has been good, and the times I've tried playing with more it has felt unnecessary. I'm not sure if Council's Judgment or Vindicate belongs in the deck, so I might just split them 1-1 and see which I prefer. I ran Vindicates before the printing of Judgment, and I really liked the vindicate + wasteland turns.
Sorin, Lord of Innistrad is a new addition, and I've only had him in play a few times. Still on the fence, especially as a 1-off in a deck without blue. Have you guys tested with him, and did he perform?

In regards to the sideboard, I'm not entirely convinced of the Path to Exile. I've tried Disfigure and Deathmark, but I'm not really sure which one to go with. Guess it very much depends on the decks you face on the day. Still, I like additional removal out of the board. I've also considered switching the Isolated Chapel for a Savannah and go with a pair of Abrupt Decay.
Finally, the Surgical Extraction looks a bit iffy with no Snapcaster Mage, but I like the interaction with Cabal Therapy.

[Tokugawa]

Hi folks,

Long time reader of the forums, first post! I'd like to share my list with you, and hope you can give me some feedback on card choices and especially the sideboard.
This is the list I'm running at the moment. (I have no idea if the card tags will work, bear with me)


4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Scrubland
1 Isolated Chapel
3 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Wasteland
1 Bayou

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tidehollow Sculler

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Council's Judgment
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Lingering Souls
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

Sideboard


2 Engineered Explosives
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Path to Exile
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Containment Priest
2 Perish
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

Now, I'm fairly happy with the main board. The misers Sensei's Divining Top has been good, and the times I've tried playing with more it has felt unnecessary. I'm not sure if Council's Judgment or Vindicate belongs in the deck, so I might just split them 1-1 and see which I prefer. I ran Vindicates before the printing of Judgment, and I really liked the vindicate + wasteland turns.
Sorin, Lord of Innistrad is a new addition, and I've only had him in play a few times. Still on the fence, especially as a 1-off in a deck without blue. Have you guys tested with him, and did he perform?

In regards to the sideboard, I'm not entirely convinced of the Path to Exile. I've tried Disfigure and Deathmark, but I'm not really sure which one to go with. Guess it very much depends on the decks you face on the day. Still, I like additional removal out of the board. I've also considered switching the Isolated Chapel for a Savannah and go with a pair of Abrupt Decay.
Finally, the Surgical Extraction looks a bit iffy with no Snapcaster Mage, but I like the interaction with Cabal Therapy.
Decay is awesome, could try to MD it if you have 2 or more G duallands.

Perish is a bit narrow. Zealous Persecution or Toxic Deluge would be better boardwipe choice, good against DnT/TNN/Maverick while still funtional against Elves.

[PBorn]

Decay is awesome, could try to MD it if you have 2 or more G duallands.

Perish is a bit narrow. Zealous Persecution or Toxic Deluge would be better boardwipe choice, good against DnT/TNN/Maverick while still funtional against Elves.

I don't think I'd main deck Abrupt Decay. I ran it for a while with an additional Bayou and a Savannah, but then it just felt wrong not to go all-in and go with Tarmogoyf or Knight of the Reliquary as well. Still, I think I should have a few in the board, a few matches where they really do some work. I just don't know what to cut, the 1cc removal seems rock solid.

Perish might be a bit narrow, but Toxic Deluge wipes all my own creatures and Zealous Persecution does nothing against Shardless BUG, RUG Delver and the like. I ran Zealous Persecution when UR Delver was a thing, but now I really feel I need the big bomb against the green guys.

I haven't had much trouble with TNN so far, with plenty of discard, Liliana and Sword of Fire and Ice. Engineered Explosives can help as well from the board I guess, but haven't tried that yet.

[maharis]

Wilkin got second at the IQ

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=82337

[Tokugawa]

Congratulations to Wilkin(and his personal mascot shriekmaw)!

[Will_L]

Wilkin has been rockin' those two Shriekmaws since the dawn of time

[Megadeus]

Needs moar CHOOOOKKKEE. But for real. Good stuff. Wish I still had dead guy stuff but cruise made me sell out of it.

[Wilkin]

Thanks. My goal was to make at least top 8 so getting 2nd was nice. LOL, and my janky decklist shows up yet again on Starcity too. My sideboard is even more wacky now than previous versions. I made a last minute decision to take out the duress and put in a Gaddock Teeg. Didn't really make much of a difference as I think I only cast him once.

I'll post a tournament report shortly...

[Ganfar]

Thanks. My goal was to make at least top 8 so getting 2nd was nice. LOL, and my janky decklist shows up yet again on Starcity too. My sideboard is even more wacky now than previous versions. I made a last minute decision to take out the duress and put in a Gaddock Teeg. Didn't really make much of a difference as I think I only cast him once.

I'll post a tournament report shortly...

I don't like the burn MU and Circle of Protection: Red seems like a good sideborad card. What´s your experience with that card?

[lyracian]

Thanks. My My sideboard is even more wacky now than previous versions. I made a last minute decision to take out the duress and put in a Gaddock Teeg. Didn't really make much of a difference as I think I only cast him once.

Once might be all that was needed! Congratulations on finally getting a Top 8, looking forward to the report

[Einherjer]

@Wilkin: It's been years since I played this deck or was active in this thread, but I still enjoy looking back at this outstandingly amusing deck that I started Legacy with. This thread, and you including, taught me a lot! I immediately recognized your name when I saw you placing 2nd with Deadguy Wilkin. Congratulations and keep on rocking with Deadguy Ale!

Greetings

[Tokugawa]

Thanks. My goal was to make at least top 8 so getting 2nd was nice. LOL, and my janky decklist shows up yet again on Starcity too. My sideboard is even more wacky now than previous versions. I made a last minute decision to take out the duress and put in a Gaddock Teeg. Didn't really make much of a difference as I think I only cast him once.

I'll post a tournament report shortly...

They show some respect to the history of the deck this time? :tongue: At least they didn't sort your deck to something like "Abzan deathblade", just like the unpleasant names such as "Jeskai miracles" or "Sultai delver"...

[Megadeus]

My deck got classified as BW Deathblade... :mad:

[Wilkin]

Got 2nd at SCG Syracuse Legacy. 107 players I believe. 7 rounds swiss, cut to top 8. My goal was to top 8 this time, the closest at a SCG event for me was 13th at Detroit last year.

4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Shriekmaw
1 Hero of Bladehold
3 Thoughtseize
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Vindicate
1 Council's Judgment
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
3 Lingering Souls
2 Chrome Mox
4 Scrubland
1 Bayou
3 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
2 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs

SIDEBOARD: 2 Engineered Explosives, 1 Thalia, 1 Gaddock Teeg, 1 Containment Priest, 1 Phyrexian Revoker, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Enlightened Tutor, 1 Leyline of the Void, 1 Relic of Progenitus, 1 Surgical Extraction, 1 Toxic Deluge, 1 Zealous Persecution, 1 Disfigure, 1 Circle of Protection: Red.


Round 1. Douglas Wilson. Punishing Jund. Win 2-1
Game 1. I kept a meh hand that had Deathrite and Bob and one removal spell (Lilly). He's on the play and discards away Lilly. He plays his bob....and then Punishing Fire combo. I see Goyf and Library. GG. I was at 20 life and him at 10 but he had soooooo much going on there's no chance for me to claw back into the game.
Game 2. I open with Leyline of the Void. LOL, mise. He has Punishing Fire but I don't care now that it's a more expensive shock.
Game 3. I have Relic in my opener and land an early Mystic for Batterskull. He's a bit mana light and I make it worse by Wasting some lands.

Round 2. Timur. Blue/white. Mystic, jace. etc. Win 2-1.
Game 1. He has Batterskull, I don't. I think he has a Jace out too.
Don't remember much from Game 2 or 3 except....My Gaddock Teeg is in play game 2 but he sides out his forces and Jaces so Teeg actually hurts me more as I have an Explosives in hand.
Also I kill him with Hero of Bladehold in game 3.

Round 3. Josh. Sneak Show. Win 2-0.
Game 1. He's on the play. Island pass. I have 2 thoughtseize, Chrome mox, Dark Confidant, land, Karakas, and Liliana in hand. I top deck a Deathrite. I thoughtseize and see. 2 lands including at least one sol land, Emrakul, Griselbrand, Show and Tell and a Sneak Attack. I take the Show and tell with 1 Thoughtseize and the Sneak attack with the other (mox imprinting Deathrite). I was very tempted to leave him with Show and tell and Emrakul....but he could topdeck Griselbrand and he can't possibly cast Show and tell in to Emrakul.....I figure He would know that I have some sort of answer for the Spaghetti monster. He topdecks a few ponders but doesn't do much as I start casting Bob and Liliana to close out the game. LOL, i also draw Shriekmaw soon after for added insurance. He's able to cast Sneak Attack but no open Red mana....I Vindicate it on my turn.

Game 2. I mull to 6 with Bob, Revoker, Mox, thoughtseize and 2 lands (Unfortunately none of them were Karakas, can't lucksack all the time). He opens with Leyline of Sanctity and Ponders I think. I imprint Thoughtseize on Mox and cast Bob on my turn 1. Resolves. He ponders and shuffles again. I start wasting lands and casting 2 mana dudes like Mystic and Revoker naming Sneak Attack. 2 mana dudes and Batterskull get there. For some strange reason he doesn't side in Pyroclasm against me. I found that odd.


Round 4. Adam Quinlan. Death and Taxes. Win 2-0.
Funny thing. I played against him in the Legacy Challenge the day before. I was playing MUD....and got wrecked.
Game 1. I'm on the play. Fetch, swamp...Deathrite. I laugh. The gig is up....I'm not MUD. I land Bob and Mystic for Skull early. He floods a fair bit but has Thalia and Mom out. He has a Vial at 3 and a Karakas too, 1 card in hand. So I swing, he block bounces Thalia. I cast Therapy on him naming Thalia....the other card in hand is another Thalia. I did have a plow in hand, which I'm assuming he thought I would have in hand since Mom was active and Bob was around for 3 draw steps. So I eventually get a Lingering Souls, equip one to skull.

Game 2. He has mom turn 1. Me turn 1 Shaman. He casts a Jitte turn 2. I cast Lilian turn 2. Bye Mom. He then casts Brimaz tapping out which is great since one of those lands is Karakas. On my turn I then Shriekmaw his Brimaz, which got a few laughs and a Bob. I don't activate Liliana for a few turns since I'm worried about Liege. Turns out, I check his decklist as he made 9th....no Liege. I then get a Jitte online and Bob and Jitte and Liliana are too much.


Round 5. Ronald Mackenzie. Miracles. Lost 1-2
Game 1. He's very mana light, I think I vindicated a land to add to those problems. I have I liliana, 2 Souls and a Sword of Fire and Ice.
Game 2. I knock him down to 13 but he entreats for 3 Angels and has a Clique out.
Game 3. Turning Point. I have active Liliana. He has 3 lands out, 2 cards in hand and a top. I cast Pithing Needle. Resolves. Top is still in play. I tank for a bit as usually players draw with top. But he doesn't. I think about naming Jace, the Mind Sculptor but don't. On his turn...Jace. I think I goofed. I'm eternally worried about top/counterbalance lock. In addition Top obviously gives him better card selection than me.....Entreat the Angels etc. However, I shouldn't be as worried about Counterbalance lock at that time. IMO, active Liliana is a big threat that Counterbalance obviously can't stop. and as long as Lilly is around...I can eventually separate his lands and Counterbalance and Top....dealing with Counterbalance. However, an active Jace trumps Liliana, especially on an empty board, which it was.

Nice guy. He's part of a group of Ottawa people that came over to play. Which includes Ted McCluskie, who beat me in round 14 of GP Washington on his way to top 8 there.

Round 6. James. Black/Green Removal? lol. Won 2-0.
Game 1. So his deck is black green with Top. Tons of discard and tons of removal. Like tons of removal. More than me. Innocent Blood, Pernicious Deed, Maelstrom Pulse, Damnation, Liliana. Lingering Souls is the MVP here. I cast one half of Lingering Souls and beatdown. He casts Deed. I swing again, he pops deed. I flashback Souls, for some reason he didn't know that or remember it.
Game 2. He plays Urborg and Sensei's Diving Top. I waste his land. He plays another Urborg and looks at top 3. I waste again. I keep him down to 2 lands, I think I may have Vindicated a land as well. I beatdown with Souls again I think. He shows me his hand after.....lots of 3's.

So he tells me a couple of earlier Delver opponents just scooped because of the amount of removal. lol. I can appreciate someone who plays that amount of removal. So he plays Karn Liberated and Grave Titan. Can't remember what else he told me. Glad he didn't land Titan game 1 as he did have the mana to cast him.

Round 7. ID Draw.


I make top 8. 6th seed. We split. I know there are at least 2 Miracle opponents and Shardless Bug (Ted) so I don't like my chances so I'm happy for the split. $425 each. If we don't split and I lose in top 8 it's only $200.

Round 8. Jacob Shannon. Burn. 2-0.
Game 1. He has turn 1 Goblin Guide and doesn't flip a land for a while. Fortunately, I have 2 Deathrites and 2 Mystics which eat his removal. I'm able to get a Jitte online and equip to a Lingering Soul. It also helps he is stuck on 1 mountain, which I promptly Stone Rain.
Game 2. Early Grim Lavamancer and Goblin Guide. I Shriekmaw the Goblin Guide. Again, I'm able to have Mystic, 2 Souls and Jitte. He still has Lavamancer but not enough food in yard and stuck on 2 lands for a while....which LOL I make the situation worse for him as I Vindicate a land again, leaving him on 1 land. I was as low as 1 life. He shows me a price which I felt he should cast anyway....would have dealt only 2 damage as I have 2 wastelands out but better than nothing, I'm at low life, and more food for Lavamancer is good.

Round 9. Jason Smith. Grixis Pyromancer. Win 2-1.
Game 1. So it a deck with Snapcaster, Strix, Dack Fayden, Dig through Time, Thought Scour, Cabal Therapy. I land an early Liliana and wreck his hand. He has a Tasigur in hand but doesn't cast it for a long time because of Liliana. Liliana has as many as 11 counters on her...so I ultimate separating 2 Undergrounds in 1 pile, 2 Volcanics and a fetch in the other. He chooses to keep the 2 undergrounds. Take that Sundering Titan. lol. Can't remember what actually killed him.

Game 2. Dack Fayden steals Batterskull with a Strix out. I vindicate the Strix and swing The Germ into Dack Fayden killing him. But he casts a Snapcaster and beats me with it equipped to Skull. Boo urns. He also Digs Through Time numerous times.

Game 3. I don't remember him doing much....and Then Hero of Bladehold lands. Jason and the Judge both laugh when they see that. She swings with 2 dudes, he bolts a soldier so he goes from 19 to 14. I then cast Lingering Souls. He plays nothing and then I swing again and cast Zealous Persecution. Seems like super overkill (lol I didn't bother doing that math until after) but 3 soldiers, 2 souls and a Hero is only 13 damage normally. Zealous gets me that extra point of damage and then some.


Round 10. David Melendez. Jeskai Stoneblade. Lost 0-2.
I put him on Miracles. Not quite. It has Terminus and Top but no Counterbalance or Entreat. I knock him down to 5 life in game 1 but I can't compete with the amount of removal, in particular Terminus. Game 2 he has Jace out gg.

He was very amused I tried to hardcast Shriekmaw to kill Snapcaster Mage. He forced it. I showed him Hero of Bladehold after as well.

Here it is. copy and pasted from Tournament Report. I can further explain Sideboard if you want. I realize it does look like a pile.


Very happy with finishing 2nd. Sideboard was alright. Saw the Leyline when I really needed it versus Punishing Jund. I had Circle of Protection: Red vs. Burn but I never saw it. I usually see my one ofs but not in this case....and when I do see COP:red against Burn I'm usually winning. Sideboard does look like a pile but a lot of the cards do similar things. Eg. creature kill...Engineered Explosives, Toxic Deluge, Zealous Persecution and Disfigure. Needle and Revoker are very similar. Graveyard hate is Leyline, Relic and Surgical.


Thanks, Einherjer. I read your posts on Miracles. LOL, not to play it but how to beat it. Still an uphill battle for Deadguy to beat Miracles for me.

Notes:
-Surprised Starcity actually called my Deck by the proper name. Dead Guy Ale. Especially seeing Jeskai Stoneblade or Sultai Delver on there.
-Hero of Bladehold kill count. 2. The one woman army only showed up twice but she closed out the game both times.
-I'm still going to run COP:RED as I barely beat burn without it. I haven't been able to test much against burn since the switch to COP:Red.
-switched from 2 Revokers to a split of 1 needle and 1 Revoker. Now that I've done that, I see both more now then when it was Just 2 Revokers. lol.
-Leyline of the Void showed up when I needed it against Punishing Jund. I didn't see it vs Grixis Pyromancer, which would have been nice but still got there.
-Choke is an interesting thought. Actually never casted it before.
-Vindicate was great. Stone Rain quite a few times. Maybe I should make it 3 Vindicates again. It's quite fun reducing your opponent to zero permanents in play.

[Wilkin]

Thanks Einherjer. I read the Miracles board from time to time. For a while at Jersey I was at the top tables, almost had to face you (I ended up at the table beside you in round 12 I think). You may or may not remember there was a judge call by Bob Huang asking about Chains of Mephistopheles. And we both looked at each other when the Judge's explanation wasn't too clear. I then had to clarify what the Judge said to Bob. I'm still amused Bob asked me how many byes I had after the match. I figured he thought my deck was a pile, was hoping he would do a tournament report but he only covered one match he played.

Oh and traded a bunch of extra cards at the event for $56 and a German Bayou. Now my dual lands for Dead Guy Ale are all FBB German ones. Lol, that also means I have enough cards to make 2 Dead Guy Ale decks.

[Einherjer]

Ohhh, yeah I remember you now! That's amazing, hehe!

Keep rocking Deadguy, I appreciate this dedication! :)

Greetings

[Tokugawa]

Are there some matchup analysis against current mainstream decks? Just like the "20 matchup" section in newer primers.

[datanaga]

I'm having problems against punishing jund, which is the most played deck in my meta right now:

My current creatures configuration is:

3x mother
3x sculler
4x sfm
4x drs
4x confidant

discard package:
3x thoughtseize
2x hymn to tourach

What do you think about this exchange:

-1 mother
-3 sculler
+2 jotun grunt
+2 cabal therapy

and my discard package will be:
3x thoughtseize
2x hymn
2x cabal therapy

[Wilkin]

Jotun Grunt is a decent creature but I find it will probably only live about 3 turns. Is there that much Punishing Jund in your meta? I'd probably just put in sideboard cards than mess with your main deck.

It is a very tough matchup. I've faced it a couple of times in the last 2 tournaments I played in. I side in a few Graveyard hate cards and call it a day. I'm so weak to Punishing Fire game 1 that I feel it's not worth changing my main deck to try and beat it game 1.

[sdematt]

If you want to beat Punishing Jund, Rule of Law is pretty good to do that. As with Sword of Feast and Famine.

-Matt