[Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

[Ganfar]

Played this to a riveting 1-3-bye

2 Siege Rhino
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant

2 Chrome Mox
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Vindicate
1 Council's Judgment
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Lingering Souls
1 Collective Brutality
3 Thoughtseize

2 Liliana of the Veil

1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
4 Scrubland
3 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath

SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Diabolic Edict
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge


I tried Rhino and some other things in that slot online. Seemed like a resolved Rhino always played better for me. Might go back to -2 Rhino +1 AD +1 Elspeth, Knight Errant but really, int he matchups I had, AD got put on Chrom Mox more than played due to lack of targets. Got asked I've tried Fatal Push. I have but like AD, Fatal Push really only infect to target. I faced 2 Emmy/Grizz decks and then BR Reanimator so...
Thanks for shareing this list. I have some feedback and questions? You had 2 Bad matchups (BR and Nic-Fit), 1 ok (Show and Tell) and one good (Infect)

Has Collective Brutality in main be good to you? This card is really nice but I would avoid it if there are lot of Daze and Delvers in the meta.

I think replace Siege Rhino with a planeswalker and AD is correct. I think you should have either Garruk Relentless or Sorin, Lord of Innistard.

Are there a lot of burn in your meta? Circle of Protection: Red seem very narrow and I would rather have one more Collective Brutality.

I have remove 1 Choke from my SB to a Planeswalker instead. Choke is bad when you are behind and in the matchups you want to borad it in with (Miracles) a planeswalker is just better.

[Tokugawa]

Thanks for shareing this list. I have some feedback and questions? You had 2 Bad matchups (BR and Nic-Fit), 1 ok (Show and Tell) and one good (Infect)

Has Collective Brutality in main be good to you? This card is really nice but I would avoid it if there are lot of Daze and Delvers in the meta.

I think replace Siege Rhino with a planeswalker and AD is correct. I think you should have either Garruk Relentless or Sorin, Lord of Innistard.

Are there a lot of burn in your meta? Circle of Protection: Red seem very narrow and I would rather have one more Collective Brutality.

I have remove 1 Choke from my SB to a Planeswalker instead. Choke is bad when you are behind and in the matchups you want to borad it in with (Miracles) a planeswalker is just better.

BFZ Gideon may be a better choice in that slot: could always generate 2/2s, extremely hard for BUG decks to remove. If your opponent has no StP in hand, he could also kill most PWs in 1 swing, which provide some abilities we are short of.

[Ganfar]

BFZ Gideon may be a better choice in that slot: could always generate 2/2s, extremely hard for BUG decks to remove. If your opponent has no StP in hand, he could also kill most PWs in 1 swing, which provide some abilities we are short of.

True, his manabase support WW. He is a beast

[harbingerofthevoid]

@Ganfar

BR reanimator was a good match up actually. Even beat it pre-board. He didn't explode out of the gate though so G1 might have been his bad draws and my drawing a lot of StP.

On Collective Brutality, can't really. I only drew it once and it just 1 mode killed a Glistener Elf. Only saw 1 Daze vs SnT and took it with a Thoughtseize (hand was I think Daze, FoW and some lands).

For Burn, I always seem to end up seeing it R5. Well, in the last 3 sizable tournaments before this one I have. Got the 5th round bye this time so who knows. There were 4 Burn players out of 31, so that's what, 12% of the field? It was Kor Firewalker, last minute switch.

Choke is probably just one of my go-to sb cards if playing green. It could easily be removed. Never saw it vs SnT and would have been alright for games 1 & 2 as they went long. Easily replaceable.

I guess I'll pick up a Gideon. Of all the tons of crap I have, I don't have one of those.

[Ganfar]

@Ganfar

BR reanimator was a good match up actually. Even beat it pre-board. He didn't explode out of the gate though so G1 might have been his bad draws and my drawing a lot of StP.

On Collective Brutality, can't really. I only drew it once and it just 1 mode killed a Glistener Elf. Only saw 1 Daze vs SnT and took it with a Thoughtseize (hand was I think Daze, FoW and some lands).

For Burn, I always seem to end up seeing it R5. Well, in the last 3 sizable tournaments before this one I have. Got the 5th round bye this time so who knows. There were 4 Burn players out of 31, so that's what, 12% of the field? It was Kor Firewalker, last minute switch.

Choke is probably just one of my go-to sb cards if playing green. It could easily be removed. Never saw it vs SnT and would have been alright for games 1 & 2 as they went long. Easily replaceable.

I guess I'll pick up a Gideon. Of all the tons of crap I have, I don't have one of those.

I think the BR reanimator just keep bad hands and could have mulligan. They can easliy get a turn 1 Grizzelbrand and then you are basicly dead. Even if the matchup is bad, you can still win sometimes.

More testing for Collective Brutality then :)

If there are 5 burn players in 31 people, then pure burn hate is good in the sideborad.

Don't sideborad in Choke against SnT. They can just wait until they get 3 mana and play SnT. Does nothing.

You can still have 4 mana elspeth until you get a Gideon.

[harbingerofthevoid]

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?2597-Deck-Deadguy-Ale-(B-w-Confidant)&p=995863&viewfull=1#post995863

MD -2 Rhino, -1 C. Brutality. +1 Elspeth KE, +1 AB +1 Hero of Bladehold

SB -1 Choke, +1 C. Brutality

I'm travelling and stopped by the locdl Wednesday Legacy. 14-16 people. Went 2-2.

R1 Maverick 2-1
Can't remember who won G1. Doesn't matter too much. Two fair decks. After SB I just had more removal. Elspeth + Spirit tokens wins.

R2 Miracles 2-1
G1 I get Jaced. G2 had 2nd turn Batterskull (good boy Chrome Mox). Third turn Confidant started drawing me good stuff. G3 He drops EE on 1. I drop EE on 0. He pops EE to kill my shaman. I vindicate Jace. He concedes when Elspeth sticks with 4 Spirits in play.

R3 Burn 0-2
Burn did Burn. G2 mulled to 4 looking for CoP:red. Nope. Screw it.

R4 Elves 1 -2
G1 a lot of draw and little elves plink me to death. G2 I pull all the removal. He Glimpses and biunces andd plays like 5 dudes and draws like 7 cards. I play Toxoc Deluge for 2 and waste his Bayou. Had an active liliana at 7 but all he had was a single forest. I just kept hands at 0 and DRS him to death. G3 mulled to 5. He Natural Orders and hoofs me enough that even Batterskull has a chance. Oh well. Awesome opener G2, shit G3. Happens.

Never played Hero. Only saw it once and I had to mull that hand. Going back to Elspeth was cool. I won every game I played her.

[Wilkin]

Scg Worcester. 7-2 day 1. I'm in for day 2. Lost my camera match vs elves ( Andrew Jessop). In 3 games. I lol that apparently commentators didn't know what my deck does.

[CptHaddock]

Scg Worcester. 7-2 day 1. I'm in for day 2. Lost my camera match vs elves ( Andrew Jessop). In 3 games. I lol that apparently commentators didn't know what my deck does.

Grats, it's a shame that you're not playing blue as with traditional abzan stoneblade lists. :tongue:

[barcode]

Scg Worcester. 7-2 day 1. I'm in for day 2. Lost my camera match vs elves ( Andrew Jessop). In 3 games. I lol that apparently commentators didn't know what my deck does.

I tried to correct them on Twitter!!

[Wilkin]

Finished 10-5 for 37th place. $100 for my troubles. Got a camera match too so there's that.

[Ganfar]

Scg Worcester. 7-2 day 1. I'm in for day 2. Lost my camera match vs elves ( Andrew Jessop). In 3 games. I lol that apparently commentators didn't know what my deck does.

So you were the one on Abzan Stoneblade on stream? I have to see that match when I come home.

[Wilkin]

Decklist, I did lol at the commentary. Didn't they have my decklist in front of them? No blue cards at all. And I clearly wrote Dead Guy Ale.

4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Shriekmaw
1 Hero of Bladehold

3 Thoughtseize
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Vindicate
1 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
3 Lingering Souls
2 CHrome MOx

4 Scrubland
1 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Polluted Delta

Side. 1 Leyline of the Void, 1 Rest in Peace, 1 Surgical Extraction, 1 Engineered Explosives, 1 Toxic Deluge, 1 zealous Persecution, 1 Sanctum Prelate, 2 Gaddock Teeg, 2 Abrupt Decay, 1 Gideon Ally of Zendikar, 1 Humility, 1 Ensnaring Bridge, 1 Pithing Needle.


Round 1. 2-0 Czech Pile? Jacob Ryan
Game 1. 6 Lingering Souls are too much for him to deal with
Game 2. Sofi + Batterskull = gg

Round 2. 2-1. Bant. with Gideon, Jace, Knight of the Reliquary etc. Raphael Mark
Game 1. My Bob is very nice to me which is good since I'm under a lot of pressure from a Goyf. I'm able to bring my Jitte online
game 2. He has a Jitte and a Gideon. Yeah I'm dead.
Game 3. He kept a 1 lander with Brainstorm and locks himself. I eventually land a Liliana and Gideon in play.

Round 3. 2-0. Doomsday Storm. Leland Curtis.
Game 1. I hardly see anything game 1. I see Brainstorm, Ponder, fetchland, underground sea (which I wasted). I have a bob in play and he scoops in response to a Thoughtseize. Turns out he was just off (one mana source or something) from just killing me.
Game 2. I only board in a Sanctum Prelate as I didn't see enough. Off a thoughtseize I see Ideas Unbound and then realize what he is playing. I'm able to knock him off of all permanents and kill him with 8 Lingering Soul tokens.

Round 4. 2-1. Miracles. Anderson Boone
Game 1. I lose game 1 to Counterbalance and Jace fun times
game 2. I surgical his Swords to Plowshares in response to his Snapcaster trying to target it. He was a bit surprised I boarded that in.....I look at his deck and see he boarded in From the Ashes. Now I'm surprised
Game 3. I have 4 Lingering Souls on the beatdown plan. He's not able to deal with them (and no top in play). He casts From the Ashes vs me but I still end up with 2 swamps and a PLains as my lands in the end. So I can still cast a lot of my deck and doesn't affect the board.

Round 5. 1-2. Elves. Andrew Jessup.
I watched a bit of this on camera. A bit annoyed that they think my deck has been called Abzan Stoneblade for a while. Uh.....no. I did notice a few posters on chat knew what deck and also that it's me. I did lol at someone saying I don't care about bad matchups.
game 1. My hand is a bit slow. I do know of Andrew Jessup but didn't know what he plays. Oops. I lose game 1 like I usually do.
Game 2. I know some people don't like Humility vs Elves but I love it. Sure the base Power and Toughness doesn't change much from what it was before but now those creatures don't...
1. draw cards.
2. protect each other
3. Make mana
4. kill my artifacts and enchantments
5. don't gain and power toughness and trample.
6. Screw with my graveyard (namely eating Souls) and drain my life

Sure, it's possible to get the motley crue beatdown of 1/1's but I do have Lingering Souls, Batterskull and mass removal to combat that. I'd rather take my chances with Humility.

I did make a double error with Mystic and Jitte. I figured he had the Abrupt Decay so I didn't bother equipping Stoneforge and wasting 2 mana, so I felt casting 2 Shamans was a better use of my mana. But I attacked anyway,..... 1. forgetting the untap ability of Sentinel 2. the 1 damage even if it went through is largely irrelevant 3. I played around Decay at first (by not using mana on equip) and then I didn't play around Decay because of forgetting about Sentinel interaction.

Game 3. I didn't cast Gaddock Teeg since I wanted to land Humilty. I probably should have cast it anyway. and hopefully he attacks with a Nettle Sentinel so I can block with Gaddock Teeg, so Teeg would have bought me a turn to topdeck a mana source for Humility. I felt humility was my only out and for some reasoning I thought Andrew would see that Teeg was more of a hindrance to me rather than to him (also he had draw engine of Visionary and Symbiote to still drown my in card advantage so he still had a ton of plays even without being to cast a couple of spells if Teeg was out).


Round 6.0-2 Burn. Daniel Setzer
Ugh. From losing to on camera to losing to burn. Pretty tilting. The funny play...... So I have a Santcum prelate out (naming 1 but that not relevant). He has an Eidolon. I'm at 6. I cast a Jitte, knocking me down to 4 (which he remembers). I go to attacks with an equipped Prelate (no counters on jitte obviously).....and he fireblasts......the Prelate. I through that prelate in the bin so quick. lol. I still died to the eidolon attack and random burn spell but I did ask why he didn't Fireblast me. He realizes and laughs.

Round 7. 2-1. Mono Red Sneak Attack. Henry.
Game 1. He's on the play. I kept a mediocre hand with a lot of one mana spells. He does Chalice on 1 turn 1. Chandra, Torch of Defiance on turn 2. GG. All he say from me is a Polluted Delta. So he puts me on Storm. LOL. I love big tournaments, people not knowing what I play. Refreshing.
Game 2. I see he has Trinisphere for me thinking I'm Storm. Nope. I'm able to disrupt his deck and slow beatdown with Bob.
Game 3. Much the same although he know knows what I'm on and doesn't have sphere post board.

Round 8. 2-0 Tezzeret Painter. Louis Gentile.
I have too much removal for him to deal with. He makes a mistake in game 2, he has an ensnaring bridge in his top 3 cards (he knows because of Top). For whatever reason he cracks a fetch, losing his bridge. That would have gone a long way in stabilizing the game. I'm not sure how much black he was running, I think it was only a splash for Tezzeret.

Round 9. 2-1. BUG Delver. Dairusz
Game 1. His Deathrite and True Name are too much for me.
Game 2 and 3. I'm able to out attrition him, through countermagic. So in one game he has a Delver, Shaman and a True Name Nemesis. I know he has a Force (reveal from delver). He casts the Nemesis and then attacks with Delver. I zealous Persecution and he tanks...and counters it with Force. I then Cast an explosives for 1 killing the Deathrite and Delver. And the turn after I use Liliana to kill TNN.

Round 10. 0-2 Czech Pile. Noah Walker.
At least with this Starcity player that I know, I do remember what kind of decks he plays unlike Andrew Jessop. Really nice guy. And I get stomped with Card advantage. I don't have many notes. Lol, actually hardly any.

Round 11. 2-1 BUG I think it had Delver. Adam Snook.
Attrition matchup. Whoever had Deathrites live and had more wastelands won. In game 1 I had a Deathrite that lived and like 3 wastelands in a row. He's mana screwed game 3, 3 wastelands in a row to him trying to ponder for lands. His hand at end of game 3 was 2 decay, 2 goyf and 2 daze but just wasteland as mana.

Round 12. 2-0 Mono-REd Sneak Attack. Timothy.
Game 1. I go land go. He goes Mountain go. I'm a bit confused, for some reason I think he may be burn so instead of casting Dark Confidant I cast Hymn to Tourach. He has 7 cards. I get Seething Song and Ancient Tomb. Nope, not burn. LOL. I dodged a huge bullet. Since I cast and uptick with Liliana next turn I see Emrakul, Worldspine Wurm and Through the Breach over the next few turns. I was dead except my Hymn To Tourach saved me. Big Time.

Game 2. Variance happens and his deck draws blanks to my disruption.

Round 13. 0-2 Czech Pile. Edgar Magalhes.
A local player where I'm at. Luckily he's not on his usual deck Sneak Show. He beat me recently with that deck but is very gun shy of casting Show and Tell since I have killed many an Emrakul with good old Shriekmaw.
He's able to out attrition me pretty badly both games. I didn't see Lingering Souls which is my best card in the matchup according to Edgar. I agree since it did great vs the last Czech Pile player I faced in Swiss.

Round 14. 0-2. Aluren. Kyle Dorgan.
I don't draw enough Disruption in either game. I really like the BUG version over the other Aluren Versions as it can out grind fair decks better. Well, at least I think so from experience facing those decks. I did LOL. So he faced the other Dead Guy Ale player in the previous round. I'm like....what? Another Dead Guy Ale player is here? I'm not the only one apparently. I did see the day 2 meta game breakdown......2 Abzan Stoneblade. Well, I guess at least they didn't lump me in with the other Stoneblade variants.

Round 15. 2-1. Czech Pile. Ted Felicetti
Game 1. From what I remember. I Inquisition of Kozilek or Thoughtseize (with a Therapy in the bin) and take a card leaving him with 2 Strix in hand. I then cast a Stoneforge...get an equipment and then sacrifice the Mystic to get the 2 Strix.
Game 2. I lose TNN and Deathrites I think.]
Game 3. Things are looking bad as there are 2 TNN and 1 Deathrite on his board and 2 Deathrite and some Lingering Souls on my side. I topdeck Engineered Explosives to kill both TNN and win the game.

So I end up at 10-5 which is good for 37th. Good for $100. And I got on Camera. Which is nice. And yes, despite what people think, I've played vs the Elves Matchup ALOT (playing Dead Guy for 6 years or so) and it's actually favored for me. Just like I think Mono REd Sneak Attack is a matchup I think isn't that good for me and definitely one I don't want to see, yet I somehow beat it twice at Worcester.

[Megadeus]

Nice camera match even though you lost. My buddy messaged me while I was at work and said there was a guy on stream playing Hero of Bladehold. I immediately knew who it was. Good to see people still championing this deck

[Ganfar]

The biggest issue with Humility is the manacost. 4 mana can be too slow against Elves.

I usally boardout Lingering Souls in that matchup also.

[Wilkin]

Funny enough Megadeus, I found out about your feature match when I was at home and a friend messaged me that some Dead Guy player is using Shriekmaw. LOL, I knew it had to be you.

Hmm....I leave in Lingering Souls mainly because of equipment. Usually Jitte on anybody is good but if Elves has Quirion Ranger/Arbor or Symbiote/any Elf they can block bounce all day long. LOL, the fact that Lingering Souls is hilarious with Humility is just icing on the cake.

[Megadeus]

I like keeping a number of souls for the flying to connect with equipment as well. I think looking at your list against Elfs I'm going -1 Dark Confidant, -1 Hero of Bladehold, -2 Liliana, -2 Vindicate, -1 Lingering Souls, +1 Humility, +1 ZP, +1 Deluge, +1 Pithing Needs, +1 Engineered Explosives, +2 Gaddock Teeg though I'm not sure how great it is. Could see keeping a Vindicate or Lily if I suspect Progenitus. It's not a match up I would love to play but I think it's beatable. I guess ensnaring bridge is also fine as well and maybe better than needle or take out maybe batterskull for it

[Ganfar]

I like keeping a number of souls for the flying to connect with equipment as well. I think looking at your list against Elfs I'm going -1 Dark Confidant, -1 Hero of Bladehold, -2 Liliana, -2 Vindicate, -1 Lingering Souls, +1 Humility, +1 ZP, +1 Deluge, +1 Pithing Needs, +1 Engineered Explosives, +2 Gaddock Teeg though I'm not sure how great it is. Could see keeping a Vindicate or Lily if I suspect Progenitus. It's not a match up I would love to play but I think it's beatable. I guess ensnaring bridge is also fine as well and maybe better than needle or take out maybe batterskull for it

Vindicate can't target Progenitus. That sideboard seems good.

Even if Humility cost 4, it felt like "I won" card when you resolved it in game 2.

[Wilkin]

That's pretty close to how I boarded. I put in the Decays I think upping it to 3. They aren't great but a big reason why they are there is for Null Rod. Course, it turns out I don't think he was running that in the board.

Yeah Humility was a chance I was willing to take. I already lost my Jitte and SOFI earlier but I had Lingering Souls and Batterskull in my library so I'm willing to roll the dice that I'm going to draw the later 2 cards eventually. Lol, too bad I don't run a Liliana, the Last Hope.

[Ganfar]

That's pretty close to how I boarded. I put in the Decays I think upping it to 3. They aren't great but a big reason why they are there is for Null Rod. Course, it turns out I don't think he was running that in the board.

Yeah Humility was a chance I was willing to take. I already lost my Jitte and SOFI earlier but I had Lingering Souls and Batterskull in my library so I'm willing to roll the dice that I'm going to draw the later 2 cards eventually. Lol, too bad I don't run a Liliana, the Last Hope.

Maybe tryout a split? 1 Last Hope and 2 Veil in mainboard

[Wilkin]

Maybe tryout a split? 1 Last Hope and 2 Veil in mainboarf

Nah. Liliana of the Veil is too good vs both fair and unfair decks. If I were to fit in Liliana, the Last Hope it would be in the sideboard. Too bad the new Liliana, Death's Majesty is one mana IMHO too high for us to play. I'd still rather run Gideon, Ally of Zendikar and probably also Elspeth, Knight-Errant over her.

Saw Andrew Jessup's Tournament report. Unfortunately he didn't go over match by match. But he did note he only lost 4 games in the swiss. So I was one of the few players to take it to a game 3. Makes me feel less bad for losing on camera.

[Ganfar]

Nah. Liliana of the Veil is too good vs both fair and unfair decks. If I were to fit in Liliana, the Last Hope it would be in the sideboard. Too bad the new Liliana, Death's Majesty is one mana IMHO too high for us to play.

Last Hope in sideboard seems nice. In more grind matchups with lots of x/1s. Like elves and D&T

I went 3-2 with my deck a few days ago. Same list that I have posted.

2-1 4 color pyro delver

Game1: Got wasteout and had only two lands. He played wrong he could won faster.
Game2: I get a stoneforge with batterskull. Batterskull won me the game
Game3: solid keep. Waited to fetch because of stifle. He didn't flip delver for 3 turns. Fetch to test the water to plow his delver. I get a Bob out and grind him out

0-2 UR Prowess
Game1: I almost get stable with a batterskull but two Stormmages get prowess 5. Killed tidehollow to bring back fireblast
Game2: we trade cards 1-1. Liliana was good to strip the hand and I got to kill both strom and grim the next turn.
After he kill my liliana he drew devil and draw 3 cards. I was behind the game after that

1-2 4-color delver
Game1: keep a hand with wasteland and scrubland goodstuff. But he waste my colorlands and draw only wasteland
Game2:
Deathrite to wastland bob. He has only a delver out. Bob draws me cards and i win. Lingering souls were good but he had EE
Game 3:
2 ChromeMox in starthand. Should mulligan

2-1 four grxixs delver

Game1: dont remember
Game2: Pass the turn, plays delver. I sword it but got daze. Get to play turn 2 bob. Starts to take over the after that

2-1 BR reamintor

Game1: Keep a hand with 2 deatrhrite, lingering souls, thoughtseize, chrom mox and two lands.
Plays dearthrite. I was thinking to play chrom mox on deathrite to thoughtsezie. Big mistake, Turn 1 griselbrand. I sword it but but he gets another one. I just stall the match
Game2: he unmask me and see surgial and bridge. He scoops
Game3: he mulls to 5. He plays his whole hand to reimat griselbrand. i have surgial and feire macbreber. He scoops

This tourment went alright. I can win against 4-color delver deck if I can get to keep my lands. I usally win ifI get 4 lands out. I keep hands with only two landers and didn't draw my 3rd one in time.

Chrome Mox has been good sometimes but most of the time it's worst then a land. I will test my deck with thorse changes:
-2 Chrome Mox
-Karakas
-batterskull
+ 2 Grim Flayer
+ Savannah
+ windswpt hearth

https://deckstats.net/deck-12886188-cf6ba840a42ef720657d324a57f0a383.html

[Ganfar]

The banning seems to affect few deadguy ale players main.

Mirakels was still 50/50 matchup for us and hold back some combo decks and elves. I don't know if the meta change will affact us. Some think midrange will be worst with more combo decks rising.

We will see more elves at least so a ZP in main is not a bad idea.

[Tokugawa]

We lost SDT too. Maybe bringing in a Library is acceptable.

If fewer players have maindeck full 4 Abrupt Decay, then our LSouls and equipments would be stronger.

[Valech]

I am so glad right now, that I decided against using sdt when I updated my decklist a few months ago. Tough luck for all of you who used it :/

[Zauzich]

I have been running Deadguy with 2 Tops for some time and the time issue was a real struggle for me. I'm almost relieved.

Has anyone messed around or thought about Smuggler's Copter to fill in as card selection? I'm trying to avoid green beyond DRS activation, so no Sylvan Library.

[CptHaddock]

We will see more elves at least so a ZP in main is not a bad idea.

Need to go back to 4 dark rituals, 2 maindeck e-plagues like original pikula honestly

[Megadeus]

Need to go back to 4 dark rituals, 2 maindeck e-plagues like original pikula honestly

I'm down

[MDHackbert]

I was planning to take this list (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/26-04-17-deadguy-ale/) to my Legacy 4-rounder tonight. The Chrome Mox idea intrigues me. What looks good to cut If I wanted 1-2 Moxen?

[Ganfar]

We lost SDT too. Maybe bringing in a Library is acceptable.

If fewer players have maindeck full 4 Abrupt Decay, then our LSouls and equipments would be stronger.
I have a Library in my main for a while now. That card has been gas and it will stay in main for a while

I have been thinking of Smuggler's Copter. The issue is that with Stoneforge, equips are better to have. But feel free and try Copter :) Just tell me the result afterwards


I was planning to take this list (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/26-04-17-deadguy-ale/) to my Legacy 4-rounder tonight. The Chrome Mox idea intrigues me. What looks good to cut If I wanted 1-2 Moxen?

I have tried Moxen in 2-3 tourment and I feel it's okey. If the meta is lot of combo and fast decks, the mox would be good. But if the meta is grindy, I wounldn't play with mox.

What is To The Slughter in sideboard? Is Diabloic Edict just better?

[MDHackbert]

TtS can hit lone PW. If i don't see much, that would def. become another D. Edict.

Sent from mobile using Tapatalk

[Sleepy_Eyes]

I'm very excited to see what happens to our deck moving forward.

I'm a bit sad that I'm having to re-buy most of my stuff after a brutal car-jacking... the assholes ended up with my Scrublands/Bayou and other shit. Set me back quite a bit but I have still been tuning/brewing. :cool:

Question: Does Bitterblossom have any room in the list these days? (as a two or three-of max)

I used to run it as a two-of along side three L-Souls and they definitely added some resilience to the deck but that could have just been in my local meta which seemed to be Delver-heavy so spot removal was a real thing. BB helped out quite a bit in keeping the pressure on through the field of snipers.


(Also - would anyone here be able to help me put together the strongest list possible from the cards I currently own? Not looking at a tier deck by any means, just something solid I can jam with against my bro's FoW decks. I can PM my stuff and we can mash something together. Having my cards stolen has been a massive heart & headache... :eek: anyway, it'd be greatly appreciated!)

::ninja vanish!::

[Tokugawa]

I'm very excited to see what happens to our deck moving forward.

I'm a bit sad that I'm having to re-buy most of my stuff after a brutal car-jacking... the assholes ended up with my Scrublands/Bayou and other shit. Set me back quite a bit but I have still been tuning/brewing. :cool:

Question: Does Bitterblossom have any room in the list these days? (as a two or three-of max)

I used to run it as a two-of along side three L-Souls and they definitely added some resilience to the deck but that could have just been in my local meta which seemed to be Delver-heavy so spot removal was a real thing. BB helped out quite a bit in keeping the pressure on through the field of snipers.


(Also - would anyone here be able to help me put together the strongest list possible from the cards I currently own? Not looking at a tier deck by any means, just something solid I can jam with against my bro's FoW decks. I can PM my stuff and we can mash something together. Having my cards stolen has been a massive heart & headache... :eek: anyway, it'd be greatly appreciated!)

::ninja vanish!::

I love Bitterblossom, but I won't take it unless Abrupt Decays in the meta begin to decrease significantly.

It was no longer "very hard to remove" after RTR, and fuel enemy Goyf badly.

[Tokugawa]

I was planning to take this list (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/26-04-17-deadguy-ale/) to my Legacy 4-rounder tonight. The Chrome Mox idea intrigues me. What looks good to cut If I wanted 1-2 Moxen?

As miracles gone, Kaya seems subpar. Liliana LH is OK, but better in sideboard.

[Sleepy_Eyes]

True. Guess I'm jumping the gun a little bit in expecting less Decays.
I guess our she'll hasn't changed much in a while, so experimenting won't be such a pain.

Kaya has always performed when I've run her in various B/W builds. She does almost everything we'd want her to do. Lili, Last Hope has been a huge boon against creature decks and has single-handedly given me wins VS the usual suspects (D&T, elves, etc). Big fan of no more than 2x in the 75. Shit, even her middle ability can get some mileage if we absolutely need to use it, but that's not really Plan A.

Someone suggested trying Brimaz in Bladehold's slot but he always has been rather slow feeling. I just can't see wins coming from a resolved Brimaz like Bladehold... going all-in with a stuck Bladehold usually shakes the board up at worst.

I love the idea of Dashed Hopes though. That card makes me a happy caster. Will have to play around with it here.

Also, since my Bayou was jacked, any hardcore downside to replacing it with the BG shock for the time being? I only ran 1x so I don't mind using a single shock as a placeholder until a time to get another Bayou.

[Ganfar]

TtS can hit lone PW. If i don't see much, that would def. become another D. Edict.

Sent from mobile using Tapatalk

What match with planeswalker will you sideboard in against? Sharless BUG that have lots of cretures.

When you sideborad a edcit, it's against a deck with BIG cretures (12-post, mud, sneak attack and reminator). They usally don't play with any planeswalkers.

[tescrin]

Question: Does Bitterblossom have any room in the list these days? (as a two or three-of max)


I always like Blossom, but you have two options when running it:
-Run Goyf
-Run delve dudes

The pump is real and that's honestly it's main drawback. IME it's better than Souls most of the time. Souls has minor tempo gain, works with discard, etc.. but they each have advantages. Blossom, in a world that is going to have loadsa sweepers again, doesn't die to sweepers (except deed lol.)



My experience with Esper the other day was that Tombstalker is amazing. I really *really* recommend going that way. No one is running flyers and everyone is capitalizing on TNN. Problem with TNN is it doesn't block a flying 5/5. Neither does Infect or any of the other fat people are pushing.

Tombstalker beats or trades with every dude in the format, ignores all but White removal, which is pretty handy at the moment, and the only flyers you have to deal with are in D&T and Delver decks (or DGA/Junk..) I'm recommending Tombstalker all over the place right now because his castability and performance was the real deal. Flying is a big deal at the moment, and being the biggest baddy never hurts.

[hovercraft]

I agree on Tombstalker. As long as your deck can get BB, he's a house. Not great to flip to Dark Confidant though. I always found it odd that Grixis Delver was all about Gurmag Angler over Tombstalker but I guess they don't run enough black sources for BB?

[tescrin]

I agree on Tombstalker. As long as your deck can get BB, he's a house. Not great to flip to Dark Confidant though. I always found it odd that Grixis Delver was all about Gurmag Angler over Tombstalker but I guess they don't run enough black sources for BB?

I think they've gotten bitten enough times in Delver V Delver MUs or something. Some of them run it.
Personally I had no issues in Esper yesterday, with my black sources being DRS, 3 USea, and a Scrubland. Casted him every time I saw him. Sadly, one bit the dust blocking a Noble Hierarch (Invigorate, as the Hierarch could potentially present Lethal.)

[Wilkin]

I'm probably going to cut an Abrupt Decay in the sideboard for a Fatal Push. It's not a huge change but I want another 1 mana kill spell for Deathrite Shaman. Not sure what else I'm going to do until I see how things change.

I do wonder if people are going to try out Soothsaying in place of Sensei's Divining Top in Miracles. I may also cut a Shriekmaw for something else as I think there could be more Shamans in mana decks. Elves. Czech Pile. Food Chain. Aluren.

[Tokugawa]

I'm probably going to cut an Abrupt Decay in the sideboard for a Fatal Push. It's not a huge change but I want another 1 mana kill spell for Deathrite Shaman. Not sure what else I'm going to do until I see how things change.

I do wonder if people are going to try out Soothsaying in place of Sensei's Divining Top in Miracles. I may also cut a Shriekmaw for something else as I think there could be more Shamans in mana decks. Elves. Czech Pile. Food Chain. Aluren.

There is too huge raw card-powerlevel gap between SDT and Saying. Such direct replacement would only make a...tier 5 deck.

[Wilkin]

There is too huge raw card-powerlevel gap between SDT and Saying. Such direct replacement would only make a...tier 5 deck.

Yeah most likely. I will watch Caleb Durward's matches anyway, since he apparently was trying that out.

[Ganfar]

I'm probably going to cut an Abrupt Decay in the sideboard for a Fatal Push. It's not a huge change but I want another 1 mana kill spell for Deathrite Shaman. Not sure what else I'm going to do until I see how things change.

I don't think that is a bad idea. I run myself two AD in main and 1 in the sideborad.

I don't know if I want to down to one AD for a Fatal Push. Is one AD in main enough?

[Wilkin]

I only play one Bayou main, hence only one Abrupt Decay main.

The Decays in the board were mainly for Counterbalance. I would sometimes but them in vs other decks that didn't actively try to destroy my manabase. Like UR Delver. Infect. Burn. Decks like that.

I may take out the other Decay in the board for a Collective Brutality or a Duress. I expect not only more Deathrites, but also more combo and burn. Which Brutality can help out a bit.

[Ganfar]

I only play one Bayou main, hence only one Abrupt Decay main.

The Decays in the board were mainly for Counterbalance. I would sometimes but them in vs other decks that didn't actively try to destroy my manabase. Like UR Delver. Infect. Burn. Decks like that.

I may take out the other Decay in the board for a Collective Brutality or a Duress. I expect not only more Deathrites, but also more combo and burn. Which Brutality can help out a bit.

I have 2 Bayou and 2 Shvannas to support 3 AD and 2 Grim Flayers.

Jeff Hoogan sharde a deadguy list on twitter: https://twitter.com/jeffhoogland/status/859503324005117956

That deck seems ready for a combo meta. No Deathrite Shamans.

[CptHaddock]

I have 2 Bayou and 2 Shvannas to support 3 AD and 2 Grim Flayers.

Jeff Hoogan sharde a deadguy list on twitter: https://twitter.com/jeffhoogland/status/859503324005117956

That deck seems ready for a combo meta. No Deathrite Shamans.

Not sure if I agree with his no DRS choice but his list looks solid otherwise. My only question is if the first fatal push is better than just playing path to exile.

[Ganfar]

Not sure if I agree with his no DRS choice but his list looks solid otherwise. My only question is if the first fatal push is better than just playing path to exile.

Me too. I made a comment on that, Deathrite is broken. Fatal Push is the new cool thing I guess.

[maharis]

I can see a rationale for not playing DRS (as good as it is there are other ways to build decks). But I don't think this is the optimal build. I don't think there's enough combo to justify going this hard after it.

I think he should be playing Thoughtseize over IoK so he can hit Force and Jace with it (if you want to power your two-drop through you need to be able to clear Force). And I think he needs a little more late-game power with a big PW or something, like one of the Sorins to soup up the Lingering Souls. Thalia with 9 non-creature 3 drops is a little counter-intuitive as well.

Also yes push is better than path. Never let your opponent untap with a DRS. Path doesn't stop what the worst part is about DRS in the early game, which is the ramp. If you let them get ahead and drop some horror like TNN or Leovold on turn 2 against your tapped Scrubland you are in for a world of hurt.

[tescrin]

Also yes push is better than path. Never let your opponent untap with a DRS. Path doesn't stop what the worst part is about DRS in the early game, which is the ramp. If you let them get ahead and drop some horror like TNN or Leovold on turn 2 against your tapped Scrubland you are in for a world of hurt.

I half agree; more so since you're speaking in non-blue context; where in blue you may get to Daze the nastiness that they actually kept their hand for. In the case of a lot of these decks it's fair to note that they often run a single basic; making running more paths better than a singleton and also opening an ok chance that they'll actually have the basic in hand.

I think Path is better against Delvers and maybe a few other things like Reanimator. I don't have an issue with Push; though hitting Gurmags/Tombstalkers/Griselbrands is helpful. I like that Fatal Push solves the biggest issue I had with running no-white cards in BUG or Grixis, but it's nice that White's removal is still superior coverage.

[Wilkin]

I'm not a fan of no Deathrites in Jeff's list. I do like Smuggler's Copter better in this meta with Miracles either gone or reduced by a lot. I also don't like only 2 equipment in the deck. In UW or Deathblade lists, you could brainstorm away the equipment if you had to, in order for Mystic to find it again. In Deadguy you don't have that option. I used to play 4 Stoneforges and 3 equipment but I sometimes had a Mystic that couldn't get anything, which sucked. So I cut down to 3 Mystics and have been happy with that mix.

[Megadeus]

I personally will not be playing without DRS in a non combo meta because the card is bonkers. As for Hooglands list it seems fine otherwise, and I agree push is the way to go. You have STP for the big dudes, and even Liliana. Very rarely will path be better than a push and when you have that as your removal spell against a DRS T1 you will be kicking yourself. In a DRS deck right now I want probably 5-6 1 CMC clean removal spells just because I want to be winning the deathrite mirror, especially ina mana denial deck liek ours with wastes and Vindicates.

[Ganfar]

I'm not a fan of no Deathrites in Jeff's list. I do like Smuggler's Copter better in this meta with Miracles either gone or reduced by a lot. I also don't like only 2 equipment in the deck. In UW or Deathblade lists, you could brainstorm away the equipment if you had to, in order for Mystic to find it again. In Deadguy you don't have that option. I used to play 4 Stoneforges and 3 equipment but I sometimes had a Mystic that couldn't get anything, which sucked. So I cut down to 3 Mystics and have been happy with that mix.

I think he have to go down to 2 equipments because of 2 Copter. Copter is kind of "equipment".

Jeffs list could cut one Stoneforge because he has only two cards to get Stoneforge with.


I can see a rationale for not playing DRS (as good as it is there are other ways to build decks). But I don't think this is the optimal build. I don't think there's enough combo to justify going this hard after it.


Combo? 4 DRS and 1 Bayou, Done.

[Zauzich]

I think he have to go down to 2 equipments because of 2 Copter. Copter is kind of "equipment".

Jeffs list could cut one Stoneforge because he has only two cards to get Stoneforge with.


How much do Copter's "haste" and zero mana "equip cost" differentiate it from regular equipment, though? I think it may be quite a lot. I've been the guy with two swords in play and no creatures. It's not a good feeling. Being in the same scenario with Sword + Copter or 2 Copters seems way better. Looting away extra equipment or blank Stoneforge also helps solve itself. Maybe?

I'm tempted to overload with like 3 Copters and the full 4:3 SFM package just to see what happens.

[maharis]

How much do Copter's "haste" and zero mana "equip cost" differentiate it from regular equipment, though? I think it may be quite a lot. I've been the guy with two swords in play and no creatures. It's not a good feeling. Being in the same scenario with Sword + Copter or 2 Copters seems way better. Looting away extra equipment or blank Stoneforge also helps solve itself. Maybe?

I'm tempted to overload with like 3 Copters and the full 4:3 SFM package just to see what happens.

Vehicles got a huge boost when Top was banned because now it's nearly impossible to Terminus on your turn. I can see them creeping into Legacy now.

I actually had a mostly black deck that used Smuggler's Copter that I was quite fond of, but it also played three Tops so... needs a rework.

[tescrin]

While this list isn't Green enough, I think having an Arbor to fetch makes Copter better. I think Copter gets *quite* good with Bitterblossom, making the token that can't do anything potentially active instead. It's also not a bad way to utilize SFM while she's SSick and it flies over TNN, which is a big thing.

I could see just swapping tops you had for Copters. Psuedo-haste is pretty ok.

[maharis]

While this list isn't Green enough, I think having an Arbor to fetch makes Copter better. I think Copter gets *quite* good with Bitterblossom, making the token that can't do anything potentially active instead. It's also not a bad way to utilize SFM while she's SSick and it flies over TNN, which is a big thing.

I could see just swapping tops you had for Copters. Psuedo-haste is pretty ok.

I had both. List from gate thread: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16885-Deck-The-Gate&p=990543&viewfull=1#post990543

I forgot about Yahenni's Expertise, that's a pretty good wrath against the BUG and blade decks. You can drop Liliana after to clean up anything it didn't hit. Maybe worth looking into again but not sure if BW is right.

[Sleepy_Eyes]

I can say that Bitterblossom + Copter is actually pretty brutal.
Had them both down the other day playing a UW spirits/blade pile and I felt kind of bad for the chap.

The ability to be out-drawing blue is the bee's titties and made that particular match hopeless for my opponent.

Once I realized how far ahead Hymn got me - I was able to ride those two cards to victory since they kept pressure down and allowed me not to over extend.

Been testing sans green and have damn near fallen in love with a piece of gear called "Conqueror's Flail". With DRS it's usually a decent buff but having the "opponents can't cast spells..." effect that's tutorable via SFM has been quite sexy.

Anyone else tried playing around with the Flail before? I'm growing more & more fond.

[tescrin]

I had both. List from gate thread: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16885-Deck-The-Gate&p=990543&viewfull=1#post990543
No Percy or Obliterators!?!

What kind of madman are you. :p. I feel like the entire reason to play that deck is to play giant 4-drops. Though I guess they both got a lot worse with fatal push? lame.

[Tokugawa]

There isn't any solid reason for not playing 4 DRS in a Black-based fair deck. Even if DRS is printed without its Green-half abilities, it is still an auto-include 4-of in deadguy.

[Emurian]

So I took this deck out for its first day on a local tournament with 10 people and ended up shared first place. [other dude needed to leave in the end and thus split the money]

List:
Creatures:
4 Deathrite shaman
4 Stoneforge mystic
4 Dark Confidant
1 Kambal
1 Sanctum prelate
1 Hero of bladehold
15

Spells:
3 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition to Kozilek
2 Hymn to tourach
1 Abrupt decay
1 Vindicate
4 Swords to plowshares
3 Lingering Souls
16

Other:
3 Liliana of the veil
1 Chrome mox
1 Sylvan library
1 Sword of light and shadow
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
8

Lands:
3 scrublands
2 bayou
2 swamp
1 plains
4 marsh flats
1 polluted delta
2 bloodstained mire
2 karakas
4 wasteland
21

SB
2 Ethersworn canonist
1 kambal
1 sanctum prelate
1 gaddock teeg
1 surgical extraction
1 circle of protection red
1 humility
2 zealous persecution
2 abrupt decay
1 pithing needle
1 RIP
1 Containment priest

Meta was: TES, Lands, DnT red splash, Grixis control, merfolk, infect, bant, zombie brew? [didnt see the games] Stax and me
Top 4 Me and Lands 1st place, merfolk bant 3/4th

G1 TES: 2-1

R1Never seen the guy, kept a hand with 2 discard and kambal which proved to be relevant, topdecked turn 2 or 3 sanctum prelate. I shredded his hand and beat him to death. .
R2 Early thoughtseize on burning wish, go DRS t2 into sanctum prelate T3 on 4. He starts going off at some point, has 8 storm, goes burning wish for grapeshot, clears my board, then some turn later he goes off again for his pif into wish into tendrils.
R3 Early canonist for me, eats AD, play kambal into prelate on 4 again. Get some equipment online through SFM and beat him to death.

Cards in Canonist, kambal, prelate, surgical, rip
out removal

Dude tipped me after the game to put prelate on 2 next time I face TES as he needs to wish to his board for tendrils.

G2 Lands: 1-1 draw
R1 He wins after some grinding with marit liege
R2 Longgrinding match with humility into RIP into batterskull, at some point he is at 1 life for a long time with 1 maze of ith and 2 thespian stage copies for my creatures. I have liliana which he held of couple of times with punishing fire, I end up ulting her splitting his pile into 1 maze of ith or the rest and kick him to death.
R3 We had 3 minutes for this round +5 rounds, he tried to go fetch, taiga exploration + barbarian ring gamble. I get his DD that he found, he has thespian I get peedle down and a prelate on 2, wasted his taiga. Time ended there, but imo I had better board state vs his no green sources or engine online =s.
In: Rip Peedle Sanctum Kabal Surgical Humility COP Red
Out: -2 STP, shaving on SFM lingering, hymns

G3: Bant 2-1
R1: Outgrind and value him, removing everything early.
R2: 2 TNN come online with jitte gg
R3: He mulls to 5, I have 2 discard at start and DRS, shred his hand and beat him to death.
In: Zealout persecution, humility, kambal, decay
Out: SFM hymn + x

G4: Grixing control 2-0
R1: Cant remember the first round tbh but it was rather quick [8 min?]
R2: I had 13 cards left in my deck at the end of the match. . I managed to succeed in cutting him off black and green entirely as I was afraid for another DRS. In the end he scoops as he sees no more outs with my online DRS and lingering souls that cause a stalemate.
In: COP red, surgical, kambal, prelate, AD
Out: Shaving allround SFM hymn lingering souls vindicate

G5: Merfolk Draw (2-0)
We decide to draw to end in top 4 but play both games for fun.
R1: T1 Dark confidant with mox followed by discard/removal on every merfolk is gg as she has no board.
R2: She gets me down to 8 pretty fast through TNN before I stabilise with SFM into Bskull, remove the 2nd merfolk she has, play liliana and -. Go back up to 20+ life again,play sylvan library to get me more cards.
In: AD Peedle Humility Zealout persecution
Out: Kambal, Prelate, SFM

Semi finals: Bant 2-0
Both games I outgrinded him again, 2nd game he had no blue creatures only DRS mystic Bskull vs my light and shadow Bskull that got through for free + defense =D.

Finals: Split

So can't be happier really with the first result. I still want another chrome mox but none in my area has the card. . bought a Toxic deluge for the deck after the tournament.

The thing that suprised me was how little I had to mulligan throughout the tournament [once] Granted I had 1 or 2 games where I kept a sketchy bayou DRS hand which was somewhat greedy but it worked out.

My Dark confidants where also insane in terms of how often they got me lands. Cant deny that I was very lucky statisticly on that front.

Aside of that, no complaints, good run, loved playing the deck and the grindy 35-40 turn match vs grixing control lol.

[Wilkin]

Nice. Yeah not only does PRelate on 2 stop Burning Wish and Infernal Tutor but it also stops stuff like Abrupt Decay (assuming though Storm might still run it, I suppose they might not since Miracles isn't a thing) and Pyroclasm. I guess the extra Karakas is to increase chances of saving Kambal and/or Teeg? That and maybe there are some opponent legendary dudes you wanna bounce.

I'd still prefer a Sword of Fire and Ice to the Sword of Light and Shadow


Went 4-2 on my local sunday Tournament. Beat Burn, Bug delver, Elves, and a weird blue/green Show and tell deck that had Tinder Wall. Lost to Turbo Depths and Food Chain. Punted a bit vs Depths. I knew 2 of his 3 cards (CMC high, one was Not of this World) so I didn't bother casting Inquisition of Kozilek. I cast Confidant that got Decayed. Boo. Might have pulled out of the Game 3 if Bob had lived. Tried Collective Brutality and Fatal Push in board. Didn't see the Fatal Push at all. I saw Brutality only once vs Show and Tell. I cast it just for the discard ability getting one out of 2 Flusterstorms in his hand (the last card in his hand was a land).

Going to leave in Brutality for now.

As a side note, a friend of mine who plays Deadguy from time to time because of me got me a Foil Hero of Bladehold. LOL. It's even graded too. Didn't know they would grade a card like that.

[Ganfar]

How much do Copter's "haste" and zero mana "equip cost" differentiate it from regular equipment, though? I think it may be quite a lot. I've been the guy with two swords in play and no creatures. It's not a good feeling. Being in the same scenario with Sword + Copter or 2 Copters seems way better. Looting away extra equipment or blank Stoneforge also helps solve itself. Maybe?

I'm tempted to overload with like 3 Copters and the full 4:3 SFM package just to see what happens.

Ofc both equipments and Copter is bad when you don't have any cretures out.

What I am saying is that the equips is better you can tutor them with Stoneforge AND get it into play without casting it. Copter have less syngeri.

I am going to make a deck list base on Jeff list. He has updatede it: https://twitter.com/jeffhoogland/status/860964161035145216

+ 4 Deathrite and 1 Bayou, 3 Tidehollow Scruller

-Gideon
-Stone forge
-linger souls
-2 lands (Don't what yey, Arid Mesa?)
-3 Thalia

[Emurian]

I guess the extra Karakas is to increase chances of saving Kambal and/or Teeg? That and maybe there are some opponent legendary dudes you wanna bounce.

I'd still prefer a Sword of Fire and Ice to the Sword of Light and Shadow


Reason for 2 karakas is because I expected Show and Tell and Reanimator to be present. At our shop I tend to bump into quite a large amount of legendary creatures. Seeing as I own 7 karakas I decided to bump the count from 1 to 2 as my mates could still utilise the others I have left.

Said day Karakas saved kambal once, but thats more because I simply didn't care to much about losing him in said boardstate at that time.

I was really torn the day before of either wielding Fire and Ice or light and shadow, initial draft I had a fire and ice in my SB. In the end I cut it to make room for other stuff.
The L&S surely did save my ass in the grixis control matchup as I needed lifegain, recycling creatures was also really relevant in the mid-end game. [Returning DRS, kambal multiple times] Likewise in the semi finals R2 as noted it made the difference that game between winning and losing with my Bskull w/sword vs his board. [Granted though I was lucky he didn't peel a TNN of his deck]

The reasoning why I took Light and shadow is of the lifelink and I figured I already had build in card draw with confidants in this deck.

This might also sound a bit weird but when designing my SB I tried to pick hate cards that where creatures at the same time as I felt this deck is slightly low on creatures [I am used to playing Elves and DnT] thus it also meant that I could recur the hate bears with the sword.

[Zauzich]

Ofc both equipments and Copter is bad when you don't have any cretures out.

What I am saying is that the equips is better you can tutor them with Stoneforge AND get it into play without casting it. Copter have less syngeri.


For sure. I was thinking of the particular case where copter is sitting in play and a topdeck creature can come down and crew right away where a sword would not have impact until the next turn + paying to equip. The flip side being if you do have an active creature a topdeck sword can be cast equiped and swing same turn. Legacy scene in my town is in infancy so I don't have any experience yet to judge which of these scenarios is more common/relevant.

Looks like Jeff has a stream session with Deadguy up on youtube. Gonna check that out and see if it comes up.

[tescrin]

For sure. I was thinking of the particular case where copter is sitting in play and a topdeck creature can come down and crew right away where a sword would not have impact until the next turn + paying to equip. The flip side being if you do have an active creature a topdeck sword can be cast equiped and swing same turn. Legacy scene in my town is in infancy so I don't have any experience yet to judge which of these scenarios is more common/relevant.

Looks like Jeff has a stream session with Deadguy up on youtube. Gonna check that out and see if it comes up.

They're different by wide margins for other reasons. Copter takes half the mana, copter just deals damage but SoFaI/Jitte often just win the game [copter vs. SoFaI/Jitte against Infect is a telling way to think about it.]

Comparing it to equips is like comparing it to enchantment auras IMO, there are similarities, but there are major differences that aren't accounted for very well. I'd just try it out (even in casual or something) and see what fits. Copter can still impact the bfield the turn it lands by being a 3/3 flyer defensively, and infact may screw up your opponent if they're bad at rules.

[Scott]

Jeff Hoogland 5-0'd (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2017-05-09-0) on MTGO today with his take on Deadguy.

// Planeswalker (5)
2 Gideon of the Trials
3 Liliana of the Veil

// Creature (12)
4 Dark Confidant
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

// Sorcery (10)
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Lingering Souls
2 Thoughtseize

// Instant (5)
1 Fatal Push
4 Swords to Plowshares

// Artifact (6)
1 Batterskull
2 Chrome Mox
2 Smuggler's Copter
1 Umezawa's Jitte

// Land (22)
1 Arid Mesa
1 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
3 Scrubland
3 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Batterskull
SB: 1 Fatal Push
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Council's Judgment
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction

[Ganfar]

Awesome to see 5-0 with that list.

Spirit of the Labyrith seems anti-Ledovold and combo for me.

2 Gideon of the Trials i main! He made a comment it was both good against delver and strom, that are not many card that are like that in Legacy.

I have made a first draft with Jeff deck as a base and added Deathrite:

https://deckstats.net/deck-13088645-ed56cf60077208e39654afa8bc814f67.html

The sideborad for my localmeta, lots of grindy decks and few strong combo decks (Strom and BR reanimator)

[Dan Pyre]

Regarding Hoogland lists:

Obviously Thalia is a powerful card in Legacy. However, with 26+ noncreature spells maindeck how is it possible to play this card without losing a large amount of games to self mana denial? It seems incredibly greedy. I'm learning the deck myself in paper with the DRS version but the Thalias seem like they would mess with the mana curve heavily. Thanks!

[Ganfar]

Regarding Hoogland lists:

Obviously Thalia is a powerful card in Legacy. However, with 26+ noncreature spells maindeck how is it possible to play this card without losing a large amount of games to self mana denial? It seems incredibly greedy. I'm learning the deck myself in paper with the DRS version but the Thalias seem like they would mess with the mana curve heavily. Thanks!
Yes, but I would say it was a meta call. In the video he played this deck, he meet two Strom decks. Thalia was a big help for him there.

That's way I want to try Tidehollow instead. Still a anticombo card but dont taxs your mana.

[MrFrowny_]

Yes, but I would say it was a meta call. In the video he played this deck, he meet two Strom decks. Thalia was a big help for him there.

That's way I want to try Tidehollow instead. Still a anticombo card but dont taxs your mana.

Or you could run Deathrite Shaman since you're using fetchlands. It's ramping you so the Thalia tax doesn't screw you over as much.

[Ganfar]

Or you could run Deathrite Shaman since you're using fetchlands. It's ramping you so the Thalia tax doesn't screw you over as much.

That is true. But I am a big Tidehollow Sculler fan so I want to run Sculler instead.

We all know that Deathrite is broken ;)

[MrFrowny_]

That is true. But I am a big Tidehollow Sculler fan so I want to run Sculler instead.

We all know that Deathrite is broken ;)

Oh I agree, I like Tidehollow Sculler also :P

[CptHaddock]

Regarding Hoogland lists:

Obviously Thalia is a powerful card in Legacy. However, with 26+ noncreature spells maindeck how is it possible to play this card without losing a large amount of games to self mana denial? It seems incredibly greedy. I'm learning the deck myself in paper with the DRS version but the Thalias seem like they would mess with the mana curve heavily. Thanks!

Just from watching a bit of his stream/vods it looks like he runs into this problem quite a bit of the time even though he's running more lands than your usual DGA list (22 with 2 moxes, I think his latest is 23 with 1 mox).

In general Hoogland's list is kind of weird, I feel like he's very threat light and banking on all of his threats landing and surviving to do serious work. Which is reasonable since your threats are all pretty good on their own but not my cup of tea. I still don't like Gideon, seems like Game 1 against storm you have a free win if you make the emblem and they're not running wishes but against stuff like Delver or TNN.dek he pretty much only saves you 3 life. Regardless i'm glad that this deck is getting some attention again, it's a fantastic deck (even if it does play chrome mox!).

As a shameless self plug, I decided to bite and buy into DGA online since I had most of the expensive pieces already. I'll be streaming (https://www.twitch.tv/affinityformountains/videos/all) infrequently. I'm going to stick to the wilkinfather's list for the time being as it's been forever since I last played this deck and wilkin's list has done some work for me in paper.

[DeadguyHugh]

The list I've been running:
22 Lands:
4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Polluted Delta
1 Karakas
1 Bayou

14 Creatures:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tidehollow Sculler

24 Spells:
2 Chrome Mox
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Lingering Souls
3 Vindicate
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

Okay, that's my updated list as of right now. I typically like to run 61 cards. I don't know why but it's just something I like to do. It's my play-test spot, usually. Lately it's been Gideon, AoZ. However, I've been thinking about moving Gideon to the SB in favor of Tasigur, the Golden Fang. Has anyone had success running him? I feel like my deck needs to hit the gas pedal sometimes and Tasigur would take advantage of all the spells and lands that we can't re-use. I just think it's almost weird that we aren't utilizing the graveyard at all. Especially after game one, you know they won't have any GY hate against us.

Which brings me to my next question, I recently took out 2 copies of Abrupt Decay out of the Main and adjusted the mana base accordingly. Has anyone been wishing they had more green sources in their deck? I know I'm just running DRS but it would be a pain to want to Exile someone and not be able to. Oh well, let's just hope I have to DRS online and then it won't be an issue. Though, as I'm reading this I might add one more source if I choose to add Tasigur.

As for the sideboard...what does everyone think is a "Must Include" now that Miracles is dead? What should we be expecting? I like to keep something like this (mostly a meta choice):
2 Phyrexian Revokers
2 Collective Brutality
2 Zealous Persecution
3 Toxic Deluge
2 Fulminator Mage
2 Leyline of the Void
2 Leyline of Sanctity

I'm sure you can see the decks I'm trying to hose. Are there better options? Is anyone going to keep a green source or two in the sideboard to keep Abrupt Decay around?

Any advice is greatly appreciated!

[tescrin]

The list I've been running:
A)
22 Lands: [4 scrubland]
2 Chrome Mox
2 Surgical Extraction

B)
Okay, that's my updated list as of right now. I typically like to run 61 cards.

C) Tasigur.

D)
As for the sideboard...what does everyone think is a "Must Include" now that Miracles is dead? What should we be expecting? I like to keep something like this (mostly a meta choice):
2 Phyrexian Revokers
2 Collective Brutality
2 Zealous Persecution
3 Toxic Deluge
2 Fulminator Mage
2 Leyline of the Void
2 Leyline of Sanctity

Any advice is greatly appreciated!
At the bottom there, you asked for it ;)

A) That's too much mana. I think dropping two sources is mandatory, and three recommended. I'd drop one of your scrubs, as a personal thing I would rather not have 4 of the same dual since drawing three often feels weird/bad. Also, surgicals are CDA and probably not worth it in the main unless you are *infested* with Reanimator.

B) 61 is fine IMO. It basically puts you inbetween, statistically, running X lands vs X+1. This means I usually split the difference between the two preferred amounts of lands and get a free business card. [As in, this deck tends to run between 20 and 21 IIRC, so F.E. I'd run 21 lands, but a 61st card, making it ~20.5 lands]

C) Meh. Tasigur is the cheapest and least used for good reasons. First, you'll have a hell of a time using his ability here, so I would probably not go that route. Second, he loses to Goyf, Gurmag, and Karakas; while having no evasion for TNN, tokens, or similar. So he's a goyf sized beater with a 4-mana ability that may get you basically nothing, while being able to be karakas'd which makes your life quite difficult. He's occasionally seen in BUG decks but even then, not if D&T is around I don't think.

D) I honestly *don't* see what you're targeting; though I think a lot of people have a hard time understanding other people's sideboards. Mine looks like (in UWx):

SB:
2 Submerge
2 Containment Priest
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Rest in Peace
1 Phrexian Revoker
1 Pithing Needle
1 Humility
1 Chill
1 Engineered Plague

which hits Infect, Aluren, Storm, Sneakshow, Reanimator, Dredge, and has some light hate for Green, D&T, etc.

Your side:
2 Phyrexian Revokers
2 Collective Brutality
2 Zealous Persecution
3 Toxic Deluge
2 Fulminator Mage
2 Leyline of the Void
2 Leyline of Sanctity

Fulminator seems unnecessary. I suppose it's there for greedy colored decks, but you have 4 wasteland and 3 vindicate. I don't think you'll need more land hate, especially as a sideboard card and 3 mana. Choke, Tsunami, Sinkhole, or similar are better slots here IMO; and only if you *really* want it.

Ley of the Void wants 4 copies, as does Sanctity. They do something in your opening hand, or you lose. Having 4 only gives you an ok chance of getting one, having 2 is definitely subpar IMO.

5 -1/-1 effects seems fine, though I'd swap the Persecutions to the Main for the surgicals. They'll do work there between TNNs, Pyros, Elves, and D&T. Personally going with 1-2 Cage, 1-2 Rips, 2 Canonist gives you Aluren, Food Chain, Goyf Deck, Infect, Dredge, Elves, Storm, Lands, Reanimator, and other decks protection. That's quite a bit. Canonist is one of the best sideboard cards in the game right now because it messes with Infect, Storm, Aluren, Food Chain, and to a lesser extent, Elves and Burn; before splash usage as just a dude. Quite good.

I vastly prefer the ETutor board and find it to be the main reason to be in white (right next to SFM and Plow :p)

[Ganfar]

I played Big Legacy tournament yesterday with 30+ people. I went with this list:


1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Chrome Mox
2 Smuggler's Copter

4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Fatal Push

1 Bayou
4 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
3 Scrubland
3 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas

3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Gideon of the Trials

2 Lingering Souls
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek

SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
SB: 1 Zealous Persecution
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Fatal Push
SB: 1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Council's Judgment
SB: 2 Thoughtseize

This deck is based on Jeff Hooglands 5-0 deck but now with Deathrite and Tidehollow Sculler. I wanted to test the new 3-mana Gideon and Copter

http://magic.wizards.com/en/section-articles-see-more-ajax?l=en&fromDate=01/02/2017&f=9041&sort=DESC&word=&offset=30#jeffhoogland_-

Match 1: BUG Midrange(Snapcaster)

Game 1.

I know that the player is on some kind of BUG. I keep a not so good hand with Tidehollow sculler, Fatal Push? and 4 lands. He starts with a Deathrite and on my turn I remove it.

He plays a Thoughtseize and he discard my Tidehollow sculler.

My turn I draw my Linger Souls, the best card in the match up. I pass the turn. He does nothing special and pass the turn.

I plays Linger Souls. I see what every bug player do. They signs and let it resolves.

Next turns I draw discard removel his Force and play Jitte. He scoops

Sideboard:
-2 Chrome Mox
-1 IoK

+1 Fatal Push
+1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
+1 Toxic Deluge

Game 2.

I mulligan and keep a very bad hand with 5 lands and Tidehollow Scruller. He gets Deathrite turn 1 and turn 2 Hymn. I never recover and scoops when he has snap, deathrite and TNN in play.

Game 3.

I keep a hand with some lands, Bob and Stoneforge. I starts with lands and pass the turn. He plays a ponder and pass the turn.

I get my Bob out. He plays ponder again and plays delta pass the turn. Bob gives me another card and I play Stoneforge and get a Jitte. I waste a land for him

He goes on think-tank during his turn and AD my Stoneforge. I revel a Lingering Souls and plays linger souls for the turn.
I don’t remember what happens but Stoneforger had died and I have 3 spirit with jitte. He plays a Dread of the night and kills all my Spirit. I get to play my Gideion of the Trails. I have also a batterskull.

Gideon gets in the turn after with Jitte. My opponent gets brainstorm and kills both my jitte and Gideon. I get my Batterskull and a Deathrite, I equip Batterskull on Deathrite and take over the game.

I remember also I had Bob and wastelanded his black lands.

1-0

Match 2: Duke BUG?

Game 1:

I keep a hand with Liliana, Chrome Mox, Stoneforge, Hymn and Bob and two lands.

I start with land go. He starts with a Deathrite Shaman. My turn I play a stoneforge and get a Jitte. Pass the turn

He plays a ponder and plays his land. Passes the turn.

I have a hard dession. I have 3 lands. I have Bob, Hymn , Jitte, Liliana, Mox on hand. I want to play Hymn or Bob AND have mana to get a Jitte out with Stoneforge on the same turn. I play ChromeMox with Hymn and play a Bob. My thought was that Bob is going to be more value and he has to answer it. If Stoneforge would die that I would have no creature for Jitte.

He plays a AD on EoT and then plays a Liliana. After that he hymn and then gets a TNN. The TNN gets a Jitte and he has a Deathrite and Snap in play. I scope

Sideborad:
-2 ChromeMox
-1IoK
+1 Toxic
+1 Gideon, Ally
+1 Fatal Push

Game 2:

I keep a bad hand with Copter, both the equips and 4 lands. I was hoping that I would draw a creature for the Copter.

I land go and he starts of with Deathrite. I draw a Hymn and hymn him but he has a Daze.

He plays his turn with a land. Pass the turn.

I draw a Liliana of the veil and plays it. He response with Brainstorm and found another Daze.
He plays his land and deathrite and pass the turn. I play Copter and wasteland. He takes over the game with Liliana that strips my hand and get 3 Death rite. A Gideon or Toxic could save the game. But he get the other TNN and kills me

1-1

Match 3 Storm

I know this guy usually plays Strom

Game 1:

He mulliganed to 6 and I mulligans 5. I discard both hands with no lands or not interact with Strom.

My 5 is Hymn, Thoughtseize, Liliana, Fetch and Karakas.

I starts with Thoughtseize. Tarn, Past, Badlands. Don’t remember what I took. He has ponder and then pass the turn. I get hymn and get badland and cabal.

He plays a louts petal and has a island in play. Passes. I get a Liliana of the veil and discard.

I had her on 7 loyaliy and then cast the Gideon of the trails, then he scoops.

Sideborad:
-2 Copter
-2 Linger Souls
-1 Fatal Push
-4 Swords to Plog

+2 Thoughtsezie
+3 Surgical
+1 Kambal
+1 Thalia
+1 Ether Sworn
+1 Zealous Persecution

Game 2:

I keep a hand with deathrite, thoughtseize, iok, stoneforge, chrome mox and two lands.

He starts with a land and pass.

I played IoK och see Past In Flames, Dark Ritual, Massacre. I take the Ritual and pass the turn.
He plays a land and passes the turn.

I play the Thoughtseize. The only new card is a Probe and I take the Massacre. I cast Chrome Mox and imprint the Stoneforge. I cast Spirit of the Library and pass the turn.

His turn is land go.

I draw Surgical Extraction and cast my Deathrite.

His turn plays a Probe to see my hand. He gets 7 cards in the graveyard and cast Cabal Ritual. I response with Surgical on his Dark Ritual and he reveals his Past in Flames. His plan was to get mana to cast Massaure to kill all my creatures. But after the Surgical have been resolved he has 6 cards in the graveyard and only gets 3 mana. He pass the turn.

After that I took control over the game and won.

2-1

Match 4: Strom
I know he is on strom. He even confirms it when he shuffle and reveals Dark Petition.

Game 1:
He wons the dice roll
I mulligan to 6. I have two lands and Spirit of the Lab. I just hope that he is didn’t have turn 2 kill. He goes off with Ad Nauseam but he don’t kill me. He has Probe me and Cabal my Spirit of Lab and then keep a 7 that can win next turn.
I draw nothing relevant and pass the turn and dies.

Sideborad:
-2 Copter
-2 Linger Souls
-1 Fatal Push
-4 Swords to Plog

+2 Thoughtsezie
+3 Surgical
+1 Kambal
+1 Thalia
+1 Ether Sworn
+1 Zealous Persecution

Game 2:

I keep a good 7 with Deathrite, Hymn, Cannonist, Liliana, Bob, Wasteland and Marsh Flats.

I play Deathrite and passes the turn.

He fetches a island and plays a Brainstorm. Then passes the turn.

I play my wasteland and then Hymn him. My line here is to Hymn his hand to his hand worse and discard his removal. Get his Bayou and Ad..

He then goes of with Past in Flames and Ad. He reveals Massure on the top and then gets the storm for wins.

I was bit mad that I didn’t play Cannonist but he had Massure so hymn was better here.

2-2

Match 5 GW/B Maverick

Game 1:

He goes turn 1 Mother, Turn 2 Deathrite, Turn 3 Knight of the Reliquary and turn 4 Thespian's Stage.

I got a Bob out and 1 plains. Rest is black lands. I have 2 plow to kill 20/20 but only one plains scoops.


Sideborad:

+ 1 Fatal Push
+ 1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
+ 1 Toxic Deluge

- 2 Chrome Mox
- 1 Tidehollow Scruller
(I should sideboard in ZP because of Mother of Runes)

Game 2:
I keep a hand with Copter, Tidehollow, Liliana, Gideon of the Trails, Toxic deluge and 2 fetch.

I play land go.

He plays Mother and passes

I play the Copter and pass the turn.

He green suns for Deathrite and passes.

I get my Gideon of the Trails out. This was one of the sweets plays i did this day. Makes Gideon to creature and Craw the copter. INTO THE CHOPPA!

He plays a Knight and passes the turn.

He has no lands so I play Toxic on 2. I kill his whole board.

He AD my Gideon but then I play my Gideon, Ally of Zendikar and I win after that.

Game 3:

He plays Mother and passes.

No removal but I get a Deathrite out

He plays his second land and passes the turn.

I play my Bob and passes. He AD my Bob on my end of the turn.

He plays Stoneforge to Jitte and wasteland my land. This was really bad for me because I was so behind in mana because of this.

I play my Stoneforge and get Batterskull. I have already the Jitte on my hand.

He goes to thinktank for a while. He then plays another mother and Noble. He plays a Gaea's Cradle taps for 4 and get the Jitte out and equips on Stoneforge. He hits me and use the Jitte to kill my Stoneforge.

My turn, I have Jitte, Batteskull, plog and Liliana. He has to many dudes and he has only one card in the end. I play out my Lilana and +1 her to discard a card. I discard my Batteskull and his last card.

He hits liliana to 1 and passes. He then plays a Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. I draw my Gideon, Ally of Zendikar but can’t play because of Tahlia. I have to play my Lialina and -2.

He kills Liliana and hits me. I draw Karakas and return Thalia to his hand to play my Gideon. But Mother is broken and he kills my Gideon. GG


Summery:

I think my deck was good for this meta. This list was better for combo like Storm with more Hymn, Gideon of the Trails and Liliana. I only miss AD sometime but I like really like to have more basic lands. There are many BUG decks in the meta and they have greedy mana base. To have Deathrite and lots of basic to able to not be wasted out. The games I lost to Storm and BUG I needed to mulligan my hand, they were too bad or too slow.

The deck was good for the tournament but I was not.

Comments on some cards in the deck:

Spirit of the Labyrinth: I know the meta was going to be BUG and Combo. Spirit of the Labyrinth seems to fit well in the meta. Disable cantrips and Leovold don’t make him draw extra cards. Spirit of the Labyrinth can also trade with Leovold in worst case.

Chrome Mox: Chrome Mox felt better when we are in less colors. However, I want to try out how one Chrome Mox feels. Drawing two feels sooo bad

Fatal Push: It was nice to have 1 mana removal to kill Deathrite instead of GB.

Smuggler's Copter: I have only played a few matches with it and I really like it. To hit and lot feel really strong. The only issue is it’s the two drop I want least to play out first. All my other 2 drops affect the board right away. Bob will give me extra card, Stoneforge will get my a equipment and Tidehollow will discard the best card. Playing Copter after thorse cards feel bad because it will not affect the broad right away. It can still use to block. I like to crew with my Tidehollow so I don’t need to attack them.

Gideon of the Trials:
Gideon was… just alright. He was not bad but he didn’t do anything special. He can stop a creature to deal damage sure but it don’t remove the issue. It just keeps it in check until you get your removal. He “only” becomes a 4/4 can still be blocked by most big thing in Legacy.

I think he fits better in a deck with some WoG effects. A control deck with Suprme Verdit. I think he is only great in the Storm matchup, the emblem is really hard for them to beat. I think Jeff like this card because he meets a lot of Strom on Magic Online. If your meta has lot of Storm, you should play Gideon of the Trails.

Kambal, Consul of Allocation:

I never got to cast him but he seems really sweet against many combo decks and Delver.


Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
This card seems really sweet against most of the BUG decks.
Changes with the deck for next time:

I have talked with some of the guys on the tournament and looked on Jeff lastes list and I want to play this:

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Chrome Mox
2 Smuggler's Copter

4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Fatal Push

1 Bayou
4 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
3 Scrubland
3 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas

2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana of the Last Hope

3 Lingering Souls
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek

SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
SB: 1 Zealous Persecution
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Fatal Push
SB: 1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Council's Judgment
SB: 2 Thoughtseize


Liliana of the Last Hope seems really nice because she can win the game. Veil only remove all the resources from our opponent but don’t win. Last Hope adds a Loyalty when killing a creature and that can be really nice.

I have remove a Chrome Mox. I really don’t want both on my hand never. I have Deathrite in my deck so I don’t really need a extra land. I add my 3rd Tidehollow.

Back to 3 Lingersouls. The card is awesome :D

I made a split on Revoker and Pithing Needle. Revoker can take more cards against Storm and the only land card I want on Needle is Stage.

I am really excited about this list and I want to play more to try out all the new cards.

EDIT:
Missed a card that I sideboraded against Storm

[DeadguyHugh]

At the bottom there, you asked for it ;)

A) That's too much mana. I think dropping two sources is mandatory, and three recommended. I'd drop one of your scrubs, as a personal thing I would rather not have 4 of the same dual since drawing three often feels weird/bad. Also, surgicals are CDA and probably not worth it in the main unless you are *infested* with Reanimator.

B) 61 is fine IMO. It basically puts you inbetween, statistically, running X lands vs X+1. This means I usually split the difference between the two preferred amounts of lands and get a free business card. [As in, this deck tends to run between 20 and 21 IIRC, so F.E. I'd run 21 lands, but a 61st card, making it ~20.5 lands]

C) Meh. Tasigur is the cheapest and least used for good reasons. First, you'll have a hell of a time using his ability here, so I would probably not go that route. Second, he loses to Goyf, Gurmag, and Karakas; while having no evasion for TNN, tokens, or similar. So he's a goyf sized beater with a 4-mana ability that may get you basically nothing, while being able to be karakas'd which makes your life quite difficult. He's occasionally seen in BUG decks but even then, not if D&T is around I don't think.

D) I honestly *don't* see what you're targeting; though I think a lot of people have a hard time understanding other people's sideboards. Mine looks like (in UWx):

SB:
2 Submerge
2 Containment Priest
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Rest in Peace
1 Phrexian Revoker
1 Pithing Needle
1 Humility
1 Chill
1 Engineered Plague

which hits Infect, Aluren, Storm, Sneakshow, Reanimator, Dredge, and has some light hate for Green, D&T, etc.

Your side:
2 Phyrexian Revokers
2 Collective Brutality
2 Zealous Persecution
3 Toxic Deluge
2 Fulminator Mage
2 Leyline of the Void
2 Leyline of Sanctity

Fulminator seems unnecessary. I suppose it's there for greedy colored decks, but you have 4 wasteland and 3 vindicate. I don't think you'll need more land hate, especially as a sideboard card and 3 mana. Choke, Tsunami, Sinkhole, or similar are better slots here IMO; and only if you *really* want it.

Ley of the Void wants 4 copies, as does Sanctity. They do something in your opening hand, or you lose. Having 4 only gives you an ok chance of getting one, having 2 is definitely subpar IMO.

5 -1/-1 effects seems fine, though I'd swap the Persecutions to the Main for the surgicals. They'll do work there between TNNs, Pyros, Elves, and D&T. Personally going with 1-2 Cage, 1-2 Rips, 2 Canonist gives you Aluren, Food Chain, Goyf Deck, Infect, Dredge, Elves, Storm, Lands, Reanimator, and other decks protection. That's quite a bit. Canonist is one of the best sideboard cards in the game right now because it messes with Infect, Storm, Aluren, Food Chain, and to a lesser extent, Elves and Burn; before splash usage as just a dude. Quite good.

I vastly prefer the ETutor board and find it to be the main reason to be in white (right next to SFM and Plow :p)


Thanks so much. I'm working on getting Lilianas as we speak. My meta is basically Reanimator, Affinity, Lands and Burn. The others I'm not too concerned with. You bring up great points about Tasigur and Fulminator Mage. I think FM is more of a pet card for me but you are right. I think I'll be better suited with RIP and I forgot about Stony Silence. I have been feeling Mana Flooded in some games. Thanks for co-signing on my taking a few out lol! Which list do you run?

[tescrin]

Which list do you run? I was a Junk/DGA/Jund/4c-non-blue/Nic Fit guy for few years, but it's true that if you taste brainstorm it's hard to get by without it. Without top I'd have a harder time coming back. I'd start with Wilkin's list if I could find it.

That said, I don't own Lili's anymore [sold them when they first went high], so I'd have to brew a bit. So again, I'd recommend looking for Warden or Wilkin's list, and adjust it to taste (it may have been pre-top banning.) I was always more of a Junk guy, so we'll see what shakes out over the next couple minutes.

-18-
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Mother of Runes**
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tidehollow Sculler

-3-
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

-12-
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Lingering Souls
2 Zealous Persecution
3 Vindicate
2 Kaya, Ghost Assassin [I haven't gotten to test her, but a wincon + 2-CA when she drops seems great]

-22-
1 Chrome Mox
4 Wasteland
3 Marsh Flats
3 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Scrubland
1 Bayou
2 Swamp
2 Plains
[Land base would be adjusted after looking at others' lists]

**This list seeks to protect Bob, Sculler, and SFM with Mom. SFM + BSK is much better with a mom around, and so are Bob/Sculler (unless they have deluge/ZP ready to go.) I've lost a couple games where they guy went "Mom->Sculler->SFM->BSK" for his first 3/4 turns, and I just couldn't catch up. Mom is a 1-drop that demands removal and grinds well, the fact that 11 other cards synergize well here and that TNN is a big thing right now, seems good.

Again, could use some adjustments and I'd defer to Wilkin's list. Personally I'd want to drop a few cards, move to Junk, include Goyfs, swap Souls to BitterBlossom, add 1-Entomb and 1-Loam and test there. I like having big beaters that end the game, and a 6/7 for 2 because your opponent was worried about tokens.. well.. that's just swell. I also like wasting people out of the game haha. I would then swap my Vindicates to Pridemages for extra aggro, the Scullers would move to Thalias I think.. you get the picture. I have a hard time no going into green man!

I didn't put Blossoms here because pumping opponent's Goyfs without Daze/Force/Tombstalker seems a bit scary. I wouldn't feel right recommending Tombstalker next to Bob, though I know some crazy folks do it. Sideboard would be the one I posted, except I'd drop the Submerges for something; probably Planeswalkers, more E-Plagues, or Deluges. E-Plague is pretty good right now, and has a lot of extra benefit against Infect and being tutorable. The fact it usually gets a dude or two, then requires an answer is also nice, since it'll likely mean a 2-for-1.

[Ganfar]

Another version of Jeffs deck:

https://twitter.com/JeffHoogland/status/864532633807708160

He seems to play with Tombstalker as a big finnisher. It's anti-bob with 8 mana and I have only seen him played it once to be killed by a Dismember. I think Mirran Cruser is better. Mirran can't be target by most removel now and carry Jitte like a Boss.

I don't know about Recuriter either. None of the cretures are a "Toolbox" and we can't do anything broken like DnT does.

Many ask Jeff why no Deathrite. His response was it don't solve any problems that the deck has.

I agree on that that but Deathrite just makes overall better. Manaramp, gain life, deal 2 and graveyard in one creture. Broken AF.

[CptHaddock]

Another version of Jeffs deck:

https://twitter.com/JeffHoogland/status/864532633807708160

He seems to play with Tombstalker as a big finnisher. It's anti-bob with 8 mana and I have only seen him played it once to be killed by a Dismember. I think Mirran Cruser is better. Mirran can't be target by most removel now and carry Jitte like a Boss.

I don't know about Recuriter either. None of the cretures are a "Toolbox" and we can't do anything broken like DnT does.

Many ask Jeff why no Deathrite. His response was it don't solve any problems that the deck has.

I agree on that that but Deathrite just makes overall better. Manaramp, gain life, deal 2 and graveyard in one creture. Broken AF.

Recruiters seem reasonable to get the silverbullets in the side, or the scullers in the main although it's kind of slow. I don't like mirran crusader though, he gets hit by all the red removal spells that grixis/4c delver decks are playing in abundance and the 1 off dismember that decks might run. Other than that both are pretty much immune to the same spells: decay and push. I don't know why he's so opposed to running a SoFaI, i've noticed that there are a lot of games where he is just flat out stonewalled by a TNN.

What is the best option for burn? A dedicated hate card like cop:red or a more general "answer" like kambal? I've been running into both ur delver and burn online a lot and each time I keep a hand that isn't mono removal spells I tend to lose. I was thinking about SoWaP too but I think that is just too slow and kind of clunky when you're not running a Dead Guy Taxes style of deck.

edit: Forgot that Blessed Alliance was a card, going to try that I think, that seems like a very good all purpose card for a bunch of decks.

[Ganfar]

Recruiters seem reasonable to get the silverbullets in the side, or the scullers in the main although it's kind of slow. I don't like mirran crusader though, he gets hit by all the red removal spells that grixis/4c delver decks are playing in abundance and the 1 off dismember that decks might run. Other than that both are pretty much immune to the same spells: decay and push. I don't know why he's so opposed to running a SoFaI, i've noticed that there are a lot of games where he is just flat out stonewalled by a TNN.

What is the best option for burn? A dedicated hate card like cop:red or a more general "answer" like kambal? I've been running into both ur delver and burn online a lot and each time I keep a hand that isn't mono removal spells I tend to lose. I was thinking about SoWaP too but I think that is just too slow and kind of clunky when you're not running a Dead Guy Taxes style of deck.

edit: Forgot that Blessed Alliance was a card, going to try that I think, that seems like a very good all purpose card for a bunch of decks.
In my meta there are more BUG then Grixis and ther he has been amazing. They can't kill him or block him.

He has no Linger Souls or SoFaI to get past TNN. TNN is not the pouplar has it used to but still a good card in legacy.

If you really have a issue with Burn and UR Delver then you should try out Collective Brutality. The issue with burn they are faster then you and many of the cards in the hand will not do anything. You need the tempo to to him.

All three modes are great against burn. You kill a creture, removel their burn spell AND drain them for two. This can be done on turn two. This card has killed burn as a Tier 1 deck i modern.

[tescrin]

Burn is usually a combination of 2-3 of the following when you get a win:
* Hymn/Liliana -> these munch 3-6 hp off of their clock. Burn draws about 2 damage per turn when you average it's lands in, meaning that a hymn or Lili can buy you as much as 3 turns by themselves.
* DRS activations [each one is 2/3rds of a card, or about a turn extra you get to live by the above logic]
* Jitte/SoLaS/BSK, depending what you run. Jitte is an easy win if it actually lands/equips on T3; which you can do with a DRS->SFM draw. [each swing is about two time walks]

and a trick this deck doesn't usually get to do is plow a fat-dude on your own side. That said, people could run Tombstalker/Gurmag in the side against burn, since DC is terrible. note: thoughtseize is also usually bad, but is doable so you can keep Sulfuric or Eidolon off the board.

I tried ETutor + 1x Warmth and was happy enough with it. Thalia's, Canonists, and other tools to slow them down are fine too. You can go deep with Aegis of the Gods [also tutorable] and use it to force them to burn dudes.

Sculler is OK, if you take a Searing effect with Sculler, they will often have to use a real burn effect on him, buying you time/hp.

[jraniga]

Hi everyone,

I have never played Deadguy Ale, and very rarely played against it, but came across it and noticed it's one of the few fair decks that actually play Chrome Mox.

I have a few questions about that particular card, I'm looking to try it out in Punishing Jund. Apologies my knowledge of DGA is very limited so some of these questions may appear to be stupid.

Whats the usual/maximum number this card is played? Is it actually the norm or the exception to run it?

Why does this deck play it?

When do you side it out?

Those who have extensively played with it, how often has the card disadvantage mattered? What mechanisms do you have to recoup the card loss?

[menph]

hi there Confidants,

i didn't played Deadguy yet, but it's a deck i'm looking at and would like to try in the future
i'm a Goblin player playing 3x Chrome Mox, so i have some experience with the card


Whats the usual/maximum number this card is played? Is it actually the norm or the exception to run it?
in fair decks i believe you can play up to 3 copies, depending on how efficiently you can cover the card loss over the game and how much acceleration you need. probably in Deadguy i would never play more than 2x
i don't think it's a necessary card in fair decks, but the format is fast atm and acceleration could help to fight properly. i think DRS would be probably better here or in your deck



What mechanisms do you have to recoup the card loss?
Confidant and SFM since they generate CA. in your list punishing fire+ groove achieve the same point
a good inclusion in Chrome Mox-heavy lists could be Lingering Souls since you generate 4 pieces out of one single card



Those who have extensively played with it, how often has the card disadvantage mattered?
when you are forced to mulligan lower than 6 and you are on the play could be hard.
it also matter when you cannot generate CA during the game (Bob being removed quickly and no SFM fetching)
Revoker could be annoying too, since he can target the Mox and you loose 2 cards and a mana source at the same time. Hymn to Turach + Wasteland, anyone?

[CptHaddock]

I have a few questions about that particular card, I'm looking to try it out in Punishing Jund. Apologies my knowledge of DGA is very limited so some of these questions may appear to be stupid.


Just my 2 cents, I don't think that Chrome Mox is the type of card that Jund wants to play. Throwing away a card for acceleration doesn't seem like something Jund wants to be doing.



Whats the usual/maximum number this card is played? Is it actually the norm or the exception to run it?

Why does this deck play it?

Anywhere from 0-3 seems right now that DRS is a card. It used to be the norm since this deck really thrives on out tempoing the opponent early game and then taking over the midgame. I think DRS accomplishes the same thing without giving up the disadvantage, I still like having the opportunity to just blow my opponent out via turn 1 SFM/Confidant/Hymn/Double DRS/Etc so I run 2.



When do you side it out?


Never. Chome mox is basically a land drop, any matchup where you feel you can cut land is where you could potentially cut a few.



Those who have extensively played with it, how often has the card disadvantage mattered? What mechanisms do you have to recoup the card loss?

menph covered this. It sucks when you have to mulligan down and you keep a hand with a chrome mox (which is basically another free mulligan). Generally your chrome mox plays are recovering some CA. Turn 1 Hymn is basically a 3 for 2, Bob draws cards if he survives, SFM replaces herself, any hatebear played is a hatebear played earlier than the curve and you have the potential to removal + wasteland your opponent's first turn play.

[menph]

Just my 2 cents, I don't think that Chrome Mox is the type of card that Jund wants to play. Throwing away a card for acceleration doesn't seem like something Jund wants to be doing.

also not the best target to hit with cascade i guess

[jraniga]

hi there Confidants,

i didn't played Deadguy yet, but it's a deck i'm looking at and would like to try in the future
i'm a Goblin player playing 3x Chrome Mox, so i have some experience with the card


in fair decks i believe you can play up to 3 copies, depending on how efficiently you can cover the card loss over the game and how much acceleration you need. probably in Deadguy i would never play more than 2x
i don't think it's a necessary card in fair decks, but the format is fast atm and acceleration could help to fight properly. i think DRS would be probably better here or in your deck

Confidant and SFM since they generate CA. in your list punishing fire+ groove achieve the same point
a good inclusion in Chrome Mox-heavy lists could be Lingering Souls since you generate 4 pieces out of one single card

when you are forced to mulligan lower than 6 and you are on the play could be hard.
it also matter when you cannot generate CA during the game (Bob being removed quickly and no SFM fetching)
Revoker could be annoying too, since he can target the Mox and you loose 2 cards and a mana source at the same time. Hymn to Turach + Wasteland, anyone?

I do run DRS in jund, but my biggest issue with the deck is that apart from DRS it doesn't have any other proactive plays on turn 1, and with the format being pretty fast right now I wanted to experiment with other options.

I run quite a bit of CA in jund, bob, hymn, punishing fires, BBE, 2 sylvan library and 2 kolaghans command main. While mox isn't a good cascade I think with two copies it's a risk worth taking. I've just played 4 rounds with 3 moxes in jund and wanted to optimise the list for further testing.

With the other fair decks that are popular now, Bug delver and grixis delver, being decent matchups for jund I thought running a bit of acceleration to help with the other decks might be worthwhile.



Just my 2 cents, I don't think that Chrome Mox is the type of card that Jund wants to play. Throwing away a card for acceleration doesn't seem like something Jund wants to be doing.


Anywhere from 0-3 seems right now that DRS is a card. It used to be the norm since this deck really thrives on out tempoing the opponent early game and then taking over the midgame. I think DRS accomplishes the same thing without giving up the disadvantage, I still like having the opportunity to just blow my opponent out via turn 1 SFM/Confidant/Hymn/Double DRS/Etc so I run 2.



Never. Chome mox is basically a land drop, any matchup where you feel you can cut land is where you could potentially cut a few.



menph covered this. It sucks when you have to mulligan down and you keep a hand with a chrome mox (which is basically another free mulligan). Generally your chrome mox plays are recovering some CA. Turn 1 Hymn is basically a 3 for 2, Bob draws cards if he survives, SFM replaces herself, any hatebear played is a hatebear played earlier than the curve and you have the potential to removal + wasteland your opponent's first turn play.

Thanks for your comments. It seems like jund also has similar potential to gain early tempo with bob, library, hymn, dbl DRS etc, only thing missing is SFM. Also the ability to more consistently cast turn 2 lili or turn 3 BBE seems useful in Jund.

Again it's just an idea I want to test for Jund, it could be completely wrong but I wanted to hear from people who have experience with the card in fair decks. I will continue my testing in the coming weeks and decide whether it's worth pursuing for Vegas.

[DeadguyHugh]

I've been watching Hoog's streams on YouTube and he has a ton of questionable choices. I took some notes lol. I asked him about the DRS on twitter and he basically said what Ganfar said. I think the most questionable choice he makes is the SFM package. He has Jitte and Batterskull (sometimes 2 but only 1 main deck). No Sword at all (which someone mentioned the unfortunate run ins with TNN). Yet he always keeps 4 SFM in the main deck. I've seen him play a 1/2 for 2CMC a few times and it seemed brutal. Also not having DRS lost him a few games. Especially to Goblins which DRS would have hosed the Lackey. He tends to see a lot of Storm, Delver decks and Sneak/Show which I think Shaman would help in all of those match ups. He also goes heavy on the planeswalkers. He started out with Lili of the Veil and New Gideon but in the more recent streams I've seen Gideon AoZ, Lili Last Hope and Kaya. I really liked the way Kaya was playing out. Also Shambling Vent made an appearance which did very well for him. I have still yet to see him drop a Recruiter of the Guard.

Anyone have any experience with some of these card choices? What works and what doesn't? I don't play Magic Online so are his card choices specific to the online meta?

[CptHaddock]

I've been watching Hoog's streams on YouTube and he has a ton of questionable choices. I took some notes lol. I asked him about the DRS on twitter and he basically said what Ganfar said. I think the most questionable choice he makes is the SFM package. He has Jitte and Batterskull (sometimes 2 but only 1 main deck). No Sword at all (which someone mentioned the unfortunate run ins with TNN). Yet he always keeps 4 SFM in the main deck. I've seen him play a 1/2 for 2CMC a few times and it seemed brutal. Also not having DRS lost him a few games. Especially to Goblins which DRS would have hosed the Lackey. He tends to see a lot of Storm, Delver decks and Sneak/Show which I think Shaman would help in all of those match ups. He also goes heavy on the planeswalkers. He started out with Lili of the Veil and New Gideon but in the more recent streams I've seen Gideon AoZ, Lili Last Hope and Kaya. I really liked the way Kaya was playing out. Also Shambling Vent made an appearance which did very well for him. I have still yet to see him drop a Recruiter of the Guard.

Anyone have any experience with some of these card choices? What works and what doesn't? I don't play Magic Online so are his card choices specific to the online meta?

Yeah the newer versions of his list are kind of questionable although I think that summarizes DGA as an archetype :tongue:. The weird thing to me is that he isn't running any mana acceleration when the deck's sweet spot is 2 and he's trying to curve out to 4 cmc walkers.

Haven't tried Kaya but she looked like she is okay in the midrange mirrors. Lili is solid against D&T, Elves and to a lesser degree pyromancer and the tokens that he makes. I don't like the new Gideon, he's good against storm since game 1 is usually a free win if you land him and make an emblem and postboard he's basically another hatebear that only gets removed by bounce or decay. I don't like him in any other matchup, I guess he buys you 3 life against a delver opponent. I've been thinking about running recruiter for some silver bullets but I don't think that is great without aether vial.

I've encountered a good smattering of things on MTGO but for the most part it's a bunch of delver decks (grixis > bug > ur), elves, storm and show and tell.

[DeadguyHugh]

Yeah the newer versions of his list are kind of questionable although I think that summarizes DGA as an archetype :tongue:. The weird thing to me is that he isn't running any mana acceleration when the deck's sweet spot is 2 and he's trying to curve out to 4 cmc walkers.

Haven't tried Kaya but she looked like she is okay in the midrange mirrors. Lili is solid against D&T, Elves and to a lesser degree pyromancer and the tokens that he makes. I don't like the new Gideon, he's good against storm since game 1 is usually a free win if you land him and make an emblem and postboard he's basically another hatebear that only gets removed by bounce or decay. I don't like him in any other matchup, I guess he buys you 3 life against a delver opponent. I've been thinking about running recruiter for some silver bullets but I don't think that is great without aether vial.

I've encountered a good smattering of things on MTGO but for the most part it's a bunch of delver decks (grixis > bug > ur), elves, storm and show and tell.

Lili the Last Hope seems cool because we really don't have anyway to get our threats back. One way I think our deck can improve is by manipulating the GY with a delve spell or something. I mean, we do have DRS but I feel like we could do a little more.

I have a couple copies of Recruiter and I find it interesting in this deck. I run it in my D&T deck for the insane value. What silver bullets would you run in this deck? Prelate seems to go hand in hand. Revoker is a solid post board dude but anything main deck? Kambal seems to be a popular choice too. I love Recruiter but I don't know if we should be running her. I think I would rather run E-Tutor and have a package for that in the SB. Could even help manipulatr the damage that Bob does.

[Ganfar]

Lili the Last Hope seems cool because we really don't have anyway to get our threats back. One way I think our deck can improve is by manipulating the GY with a delve spell or something. I mean, we do have DRS but I feel like we could do a little more.

Last Hope has a really good ultimate that can win games. Just +1 every turn and you will soon get a horde of zombie.

Jeff has removed Lingering Souls from his deck. That is one of the main reason I start playing this deck lol. He didn't like because deathrite can exile it. Sure, but it force the other player to use deathrite that turn. The oppment can't get extra mana from deathrite that turn and have to think of a new plan.

Sure it sucks that lingering souls get exile but can still meds up for the oppment. Two bodys to carry jitte that you don't care dies is good to

[CptHaddock]

Lili the Last Hope seems cool because we really don't have anyway to get our threats back. One way I think our deck can improve is by manipulating the GY with a delve spell or something. I mean, we do have DRS but I feel like we could do a little more.

I have a couple copies of Recruiter and I find it interesting in this deck. I run it in my D&T deck for the insane value. What silver bullets would you run in this deck? Prelate seems to go hand in hand. Revoker is a solid post board dude but anything main deck? Kambal seems to be a popular choice too. I love Recruiter but I don't know if we should be running her. I think I would rather run E-Tutor and have a package for that in the SB. Could even help manipulatr the damage that Bob does.

I was thinking recruiter for sideboard cards mostly e.g. canonist, revoker, containment priest, teeg but I think that is just too slow. She unfortunately can't get Kambal. Jeff posted his newest list and it looks heavily geared towards beating delver decks.


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DAcsXYwWAAAybJY.png:large

[Ganfar]

I was thinking recruiter for sideboard cards mostly e.g. canonist, revoker, containment priest, teeg but I think that is just too slow. She unfortunately can't get Kambal. Jeff posted his newest list and it looks heavily geared towards beating delver decks.


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DAcsXYwWAAAybJY.png:large

1 Brutality in main. I like that card but I don't want ot get Daze'ed whwn I discard another card when I cast it.

I still miss Lingering Souls in his deck. Deathrite could help him ramp in to his planeswalkers.

What do you guys think of the second Batterskull in SB? He seems to love it but I am not so hype about myself. Maybe I should try it out but I just got rid of my second Batterskull.

[tescrin]

One way I think our deck can improve is by manipulating the GY with a delve spell or something. I mean, we do have DRS but I feel like we could do a little more.

The deck has always been lacking in the "beater" department. Just make 1-2 "beater" slots Tombstalker and call it a day. If you have color screw issues, go to Gurmag *maybe*; but I really have come around to Flying being a difference maker.

Another way to go about it is to be weird and run some Relic of Progenitus. Your DRS will be turned on most of the time anyway, and you can hose grave-based opponents. This has been a tried and true "I don't use the grave and I need to figure out 2 card slots" way to go for a long time. We've seen it in early iterations of Miracles, newer iterations, a newer iteration of Painter, etc. It probably never feels good to put those in the main, but people do it to success so maybe it's worth the experiment to hose other graves if you don't need your own. Keeping Mags, Stalkers, Goyfs, and KotRs in check is fine too.

[Megadeus]

I've always been a fan of a stalker. I mean, if you flip it off Bob then fuck it.

[tescrin]

I've always been a fan of a stalker. I mean, if you flip it off Bob then fuck it.

I keep forgetting about Bob when I'm in here! bah!
Jotun Grunt!?

....actually.. :confused:
Hm..

[Megadeus]

I keep forgetting about Bob when I'm in here! bah!
Jotun Grunt!?

....actually.. :confused:
Hm..

I've never personally played the grunt, but he seems pretty eh. He really can't be a turn 2 play sadly. Maybe he's good enough but idk. I think I'd rather a delve guy. I've played stalker with Bob. It's fine. Odds are low you flip him, and with DRS and jitte and BSkull you've got a non zero amount of life gain

[Ganfar]

If you want a beater you have Mirran Crusader.

He with a Jitte ends games really fast.

[Zauzich]

Hoogland was featured in round 7 of the recent SCG Louisville Open multi-format team event.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/146845778

Would DRS improve the lands match up on balance? The commentary said Jeff think's it's an auto-lose. The benefits of being basic-heavy in his pure b/w list show up in this set but DRS attacking the opposing graveyard as well as having a higher density of good turn one plays in general (particularly with no chrome mox) outweighs, I think.

[Ganfar]

Hoogland was featured in round 7 of the recent SCG Louisville Open multi-format team event.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/146845778

Would DRS improve the lands match up on balance? The commentary said Jeff think's it's an auto-loose. The benefits of being basic-heavy in his pure b/w list show up in this set but DRS attacking the opposing graveyard as well as having a higher density of good turn one plays in general (particularly with no chrome mox) outweighs, I think.

Deathrite have save me many times against Lands match up. If it comes in early it can stop the land player a lot.

[CptHaddock]

Hoogland was featured in round 7 of the recent SCG Louisville Open multi-format team event.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/146845778

Would DRS improve the lands match up on balance? The commentary said Jeff think's it's an auto-lose. The benefits of being basic-heavy in his pure b/w list show up in this set but DRS attacking the opposing graveyard as well as having a higher density of good turn one plays in general (particularly with no chrome mox) outweighs, I think.

Yes without a doubt. I'm very surprised that Jeff isn't running Absolute Law for the punishing fire matchups since his list doesn't have many ways to interact with that card outside of just lose to it.

Imo the matchup isn't that bad, if the game goes super late it's very hard to win but there are a significant amount of tools that we have access to postboard that deal with the matchup. Also vindicate is great as wasteland 5-6.

[MDHackbert]

I've played 4 Deathrite with 4-5 basics, and I never had issues with mana outside of the occasional miss on mana # 4 or 5. Sad Hero or Batter in hand. I endorse DS in this archetype.

[Megadeus]

Yes without a doubt. I'm very surprised that Jeff isn't running Absolute Law for the punishing fire matchups since his list doesn't have many ways to interact with that card outside of just lose to it.

Imo the matchup isn't that bad, if the game goes super late it's very hard to win but there are a significant amount of tools that we have access to postboard that deal with the matchup. Also vindicate is great as wasteland 5-6.

Agreed. I've cut lands off of green sources a non zero amount of times, especially post board when I brought in disenchant for mox diamonds

As for Deathrite, I think it's just hoogland trying to be an innovator. The card is absurd. The real only reason to not play it is if you're worried about Deathrite showdowns where your opponent can cut you off of mana with their own

[tescrin]

Agreed. I've cut lands off of green sources a non zero amount of times, especially post board when I brought in disenchant for mox diamonds

This is my approach to Lands in any deck at this point. Have a Rip/ETutor in the side, and most of the rest of the MU is just playing chicken with their Manabase while advancing your board in such a way that they want to respond in more ways than they are able to.

Also, Blossom counters Lands pretty well. Winning may be difficult, but they can't counter it with PFire very well (the fire replaces your health), it blocks Lage all day, and it overwhelms maze. We can talk all day about the weird boardstates, but pure and simple, it takes a lot for them to beat blossom without a decay/grip.

[Ganfar]

Yes without a doubt. I'm very surprised that Jeff isn't running Absolute Law for the punishing fire matchups since his list doesn't have many ways to interact with that card outside of just lose to it.

Imo the matchup isn't that bad, if the game goes super late it's very hard to win but there are a significant amount of tools that we have access to postboard that deal with the matchup. Also vindicate is great as wasteland 5-6.

Surgical can remove Punishing Fire. I would side them in if I saw P.Fire.

Lands is a very grindy matchup. You have to stop Life from the Loam.

[DeadguyHugh]

Sorry about being MIA the last few days!

@Ganfar: I agree. Lingering Souls is a great card and I use three copies. If DRS hoses it once, that's still 8 more tokens that can come out with 2 on the board. I also love Collective Brutality. I was curious about 1 in the main of his new deck list. I've been running 2 in the SB.

@CptHaddock: Oops, didn't even see Kambal had a 3 toughness. Is it even worth running a one of if Recruiter can't target it?

@Tescrin: Yeah I figured maybe we could open a discussion about Beaters for this deck. Tombstalker would fill the void in looking for as a beater that gets turned online early from all of our cheap discard and kill spells. However the Big Fish and Stalker do not play nicely with Bob. Right now, other than Batterskull I've been using Gideon AoZ as a big dumb beater. I just get nervous when playing against STP. I also found your BB play against PFire decks very interesting. Thanks for that!

@Zauzich: I feel like Jeff is being stubborn with DRS. It would definitely help in the Lands match up. However, RIP or even Surgical Extraction could come in and change the game. I just don't see a reason not to use DRS if the Mana allows for it. I also run 2 Fulminator Mages in the SB that I bring in against Lands and Infect. They also carry a Jitte very nicely

Has anyone had any success with Yahenni's Expertise? I feel like it might be solid against decks that run TNN. It's 1 Mana more than Toxic Deluge but you can slam down a threat for free that can only be Stifled. I haven't seen too many copies of Stifle being run either

[tescrin]

@Tescrin: Yeah I figured maybe we could open a discussion about Beaters for this deck. Tombstalker would fill the void in looking for as a beater that gets turned online early from all of our cheap discard and kill spells. However the Big Fish and Stalker do not play nicely with Bob. Right now, other than Batterskull I've been using Gideon AoZ as a big dumb beater. I just get nervous when playing against STP. I also found your BB play against PFire decks very interesting. Thanks for that!

Has anyone had any success with Yahenni's Expertise? I feel like it might be solid against decks that run TNN. It's 1 Mana more than Toxic Deluge but you can slam down a threat for free that can only be Stifled. I haven't seen too many copies of Stifle being run either

[beater]
I was just trying to help you figure out a way to use the grave. I do think Mirran Crusader is a good choice, but he still gets stalled by TNN. One that dodges all non-red removal is Stillmoon Cavalier, and he gets passed Lage, TNN, Goyf, KotR, Gurmag, Stalker, Grisel, D&T, and more. The most he hits for without Equips is ~4, but he dodges Plow, Push, Decay, Vindi, Pulse, and Lily-Lost-Hope. He *does* make you weaker to -1/-1 effects so that should be considered. That said, that doesn't stop the TNN brigade and he's 75% of a non-blue TNN (can't block goyfs/kotrs, etc.. dies to Bolt/Forked Bolt/PFire.)

Personally I'm using Elspeth + Blossom tonight [gideon seems ok, but hear me out.] I've been having issues closing out Fair MUs, so I have those + Moorland Haunt in Esper to see if that's enough god-damned tokens to seal the deal. Elspeth is basically Equips 4 and 5, but creates dudes and beats Jace. The +3/+3 and Flying is pretty relevant when you send a SFM roundhousing through the air as a 4/5 or something. By using repeat-token-makers I don't feel threatened by Charms/ZP's because the best they can do is clear the board this turn at CDA, and then try to make up for it. Even if you give it to a flyer you have already, a 5/6 Spell Queller or a 4/4 Fae Token is an unfortunate reality for the opponent.

[sweepers]
I haven't thought of doing that yet, but seems ok. Massacre is also fine. Cast it for free against TNN decks while covering your Maverick/D&T MUs. No one runs massacre outside of storm because they want to hit Elves/Infect I think; but if you want to ruin someone's day, Massacre for 0 mana and dropping a threat seems OK. Yahenni's could be better though since it'll hit Leo. Depends if you run any X/3's that could survive it I guess.

If I'm honest, I use E-Plague. Name Merfolk and call it a day. Applicable to every deck you want -1/-1 effects, tutorable, and they have to answer it or they can't play another TNN/whatever. This makes it reliable CA, versatile as an answer to TES Gobbos, etc.. while I only (quite literally) dedicate a single card of hate for it (because I can run a tutor.) If I consistently have problems maybe I'll find a second/third effect to combine with it, like some ZPs that would fit with my token spam if it looks like it has legs. It's a brutal card that also deals with dumb shit like Thopter Foundry, Lingering Souls (since I'm running Fae/Soldiers), D&T (humans or whatever annoys me) and similar.

Worth considering. Against me instead of spirit you'd name Fae and call it a day as BB saps me a life a turn for no reason. You get the idea

[Emurian]

This might just be me being new tot he deck and not having enough matches under my belt but when I played at my local shop I didn’t feel the need in a single game to have a heavy beater. I faced fish and 2x Bant that day using TNN. I simply went for my DnT instinct: Race it with flyers + equipment.

Was using Light and Shadow that day so a ground fight was not an option, that aside, I won every race easily except one game where my opponent had 2 TNN online, one of them carrying a Jitte. The 3 lifegain from the sword basically invalidates the single TNN on their side whereas I got damage through + recurred stuff like Kambal and Sanctum prelate on a regular basis.

If things got to much out of hand I just slammed down Humility. I was actually surprised said day how often I boarded in Humility. (might actually add a 2nd one to the SB if it keeps giving me positive results) The card feels really natural to this deck in combination with Lingering souls.

I drew the Hero of bladehold twice that day, so I can’t really commend the card to much yet, its also the reason why I keep him in the deck for now to test him more before I start drawing conclusions. I did however, had a game where I drew him and was thinking to myself that I rather would have had a Mirran crusader at that point.

You guys also seem to have bigger balls then me when advocating tombstalker stuff in a Dark confidant list. When I tested shriekmaw a couple of games it instantly backfired on me 3 out of 4 games on average, maybe I was unlucky, but I cut the card before the tournament and didn’t regret doing so. Taking 3+ damage in the face is just a bit to much for me =s.

Little sidenote: Kambal does not look like it but hes actually a beater on his own, the dude deals 6-8 damage on average in the games that I put him down, being able to recur him with the sword was also neat. He might be to slow to be considered an anti storm card, but versus more fair decks that cantrip allot hes a beast.

[JeffHoogland]

As for Deathrite, I think it's just hoogland trying to be an innovator. The card is absurd. The real only reason to not play it is if you're worried about Deathrite showdowns where your opponent can cut you off of mana with their own

I'm not trying to innovate anything, just trying to apply good deck building as always. I spent a good deal of hours logging games with and without Deathrite. Adding Deathrite to this deck does not solve any problems we have. If anything it makes the occasional times we flood out happen more often because we are effectively adding a mana creature to our deck. Sure - it can drain some life, but that is kind of low upside. Unlike a lot of the fair decks in Legacy jamming Deathrite, we aren't trying to waste people off of their lands or play a pile of colors so we don't benefit from the fixing.

The real hard match ups with Deadguy are Lands and Elves. It sometimes helps against lands, but more often than not just dies to Punishing Fire, while also making our mana worse against wasteland.

In general I try to have reasons for the deck building choices I make. I top 8'd the MTGO Legacy challenge over the weekend with a BWg build splashing 2x Teeg in the board since that card is very good against Elves while also having applications against Storm and Miracles: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2017-05-29#decklists

[Megadeus]

I'm not trying to innovate anything, just trying to apply good deck building as always. I spent a good deal of hours logging games with and without Deathrite. Adding Deathrite to this deck does not solve any problems we have. If anything it makes the occasional times we flood out happen more often because we are effectively adding a mana creature to our deck. Sure - it can drain some life, but that is kind of low upside. Unlike a lot of the fair decks in Legacy jamming Deathrite, we aren't trying to waste people off of their lands or play a pile of colors so we don't benefit from the fixing.

The real hard match ups with Deadguy are Lands and Elves. It sometimes helps against lands, but more often than not just dies to Punishing Fire, while also making our mana worse against wasteland.

In general I try to have reasons for the deck building choices I make. I top 8'd the MTGO Legacy challenge over the weekend with a BWg build splashing 2x Teeg in the board since that card is very good against Elves while also having applications against Storm and Miracles: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2017-05-29#decklists

I don't know about how you play the deck, but I very aggressively attack mana bases with 4 wasteland + multiple vindicates and deathrite cutting opposing deathrites off. I found it to be a fairly common game plan. And the fixing isn't the upside, it's the ramp of a black mana dork, combined with incidental grave hate, combined with the ability to close a game without attacking. I know people have played the deck without it, but it's too good for me to pass up.

[JeffHoogland]

If you look at the deck list I top 8'd the challenge event with you'll see I'm down to just two wastelands. The configuration I'm playing is essentially a Black-White midrange deck, no Vindicates either. Most of the fair decks in the format are playing Deathrite which makes cutting them off mana difficult and the unfair decks don't need much mana to go off, so attacking their mana is a not great plan most of the time in my experience.

[Zauzich]

Thanks for the insights JeffHoogland.

One thing you said in the testing replays that struck me is your philosophy on the deck being about lining up specific answers to what the opponent is doing and NOT about generically grinding them down. I've always been very much on the attrition plan, it's what I most enjoy, but I can see how your approach leads to choices like no DRS, main deck Gideon of the Trials, and 4 Scullers 0 Hymn. The deck is clearly flexible enough to accommodate either style and each can call for different lines even in identical lists/draws/board-states, something I'll try to keep in mind rather than auto-defaulting to grind mode.

[Wilkin]

Interesting build Jeff. I can't imagine playing without Deathrite but you are putting up numbers.

Did pretty bad last Saturday at a qualifier for Eternal Weekend. 2-3. Beat 4 Color Delver and Blue White Lantern Control (Field of Dreams in 75). Lost to Blue Black Landstill, Blue Red Delver and another deck I can't remember.

Highlight was vs Landstill. So I lose game 1 badly and I see a Spell Snare. In game 2, I land a turn 1 Bob via a Chrome Mox. It resolves. He goes land go. I go land, cast Cabal Therapy blind. It resolves. I name Spell Snare since I have a Stoneforge in hand I want to resolve. It hits a Spell Snare and I see Brainstorm in hand as well. I proceed to get Fire and Ice and win game 2. Funny thing....I only play 1 Cabal Therapy and he only plays one Spell Snare. lol. My singleton beats his singleton.

[tescrin]

To support mega's point and counter jeff's: Yes there are a lot of DRS right now, but having a suite of Vindis, Wastelands, and your own DRS to stall their mana is a big deal. These decks are *stitched* together by DRS, and have shoddy all-duals manabases a lot of the time. The greed is palpable. Capitalizing on opponent's greedy plays is a route to free wins. In DGA they often can't even waste you back to effect, so they have more dead draws that don't actually cast their UU, GB, GBU, BB and other nonsense mix.

It's also not a plan you *have* to use. It's a route to winning that you get to use if you see your opp stumble on mana. Seeing them miss land drop 3 with a waste + vindi in hand, 2 lands and a DRS on board.. I mean.. that's a beautiful sight. Drop them to 0; have 3 mana on board with pressure, and a hand full dudes or equips or something. That may not happen every day, but I assure you it happens and when it does, you win with no effort. It creates a non-game where your opponent is top decking just to play their hand while you deal 4 a turn off a hatebear and a DRS or something.

That style of deckbuilding gives you options that are opportunistic, rather than having to conform to a linear plan. Vindis also happen to be a catch all against the menagerie of disruptive permanents.

EDIT: and it should be said that when you lack the selection of blue, versatility and raw power is good.

[Ganfar]

My greatast fear in Legacy now is the opponent goes deathrite turn 1 on the play.

I play a dualland and play a one drop.

My opponent kills my 1 drop and wasteland me. Gets to play teo thing on thier turn and I am far behind.

I always want to fetch a basic to avoid this. Dearthrite cab really make you far ahead in the game.

I will test tomorrow without Deathrite. Need to try it out

[Notion Thief]

I've been running a deathrite-less version of this deck similar to Jeff's since the demise of miracles and I haven't missed DRS at all. The deck runs on a low curve, and struggles to close out games enough that I'd rather have more threats/answers in the DRS slot.

Bitterblossom to stuff Lands is a great idea , I'll have to try that out since that matchup is pretty brutal.

[tescrin]

I've been running a deathrite-less version of this deck similar to Jeff's since the demise of miracles and I haven't missed DRS at all. The deck runs on a low curve, and struggles to close out games enough that I'd rather have more threats/answers in the DRS slot.

Bitterblossom to stuff Lands is a great idea , I'll have to try that out since that matchup is pretty brutal.

Bitterblossom is the real deal, especially when dropped T2. I've been vouching for it for a couple years. I pay no mind when someone opposite drops an early souls; you'll take like 4ish damage and then have board advantage. It also lets you consider things like Dread of Night. It is good against Topless, way better against D&T barring Crusader, hoses lands/depths, and is a maze of ith when you're behind. It's often must answer for fair decks and the advantage it accumulates takes over games. It's better against delver if you get to untap with it, and while a bit slow; it's a 7/8 turn clock by itself; on par with Delver/TNN/Clique.

It sucks that it pumps Goyf, but with Decays on the downswing it's even better than it was when I first started using it. Saying to your opponent "answer this or lose" is always a good thing, and Blossom is often difficult for your opponent to answer. Following blossom up with SFM->whatever is a good way to put them on the ropes. I've had blossom perform against Food Chain, Depths/Lands, D&T, DGA, Delver decks of all kinds, and even as the only card I got cast against old miracles and one of the only cards I got to cast against Moon Stompy decks.

I really think people underestimate it because it's slow; but it's also 3 mana less and causes far more pain.

[Megadeus]

My greatast fear in Legacy now is the opponent goes deathrite turn 1 on the play.

I play a dualland and play a one drop.

My opponent kills my 1 drop and wasteland me. Gets to play teo thing on thier turn and I am far behind.

I always want to fetch a basic to avoid this. Dearthrite cab really make you far ahead in the game.

I will test tomorrow without Deathrite. Need to try it out

I agree with this. I don't play combo so I always gear my deck (maybe overly so) with plenty of ways to kill a deathrite on the draw with a basic land

[Notion Thief]

Bitterblossom is the real deal, especially when dropped T2. I've been vouching for it for a couple years. I pay no mind when someone opposite drops an early souls; you'll take like 4ish damage and then have board advantage. It also lets you consider things like Dread of Night. It is good against Topless, way better against D&T barring Crusader, hoses lands/depths, and is a maze of ith when you're behind. It's often must answer for fair decks and the advantage it accumulates takes over games. It's better against delver if you get to untap with it, and while a bit slow; it's a 7/8 turn clock by itself; on par with Delver/TNN/Clique.

It sucks that it pumps Goyf, but with Decays on the downswing it's even better than it was when I first started using it. Saying to your opponent "answer this or lose" is always a good thing, and Blossom is often difficult for your opponent to answer. Following blossom up with SFM->whatever is a good way to put them on the ropes. I've had blossom perform against Food Chain, Depths/Lands, D&T, DGA, Delver decks of all kinds, and even as the only card I got cast against old miracles and one of the only cards I got to cast against Moon Stompy decks.

I really think people underestimate it because it's slow; but it's also 3 mana less and causes far more pain.

Pumping goyf rarely concerns me. I play 4 plow, 1 push, 2 Gideon, 1 deluge, 2 councils judgment main (I play in a creature heavy meta) so I can hold off goyf just fine. I loved playing bitterblossom vs old miracles, but moved away from it when that phased out, not really thinking of how well it works vs lands.

BB plus Bob can be a little rough without top/library to smooth draws but it might be worth the pain. Overall it does exactly what I want cards in my list to do, create virtual card advantage. I'll have to figure out what I could cut for it though.

[Zauzich]

On the topic of Bitterblossom: Another small thing I enjoy is synergy with enightened tutor. I feel like the e-tutor sideboard package has fallen out of favor recently but I have always used one. A single "fun-of" BB in the main deck can be a somewhat consistent thing post board in the matches where it's exelent, as well as be a not embarrasing tutor target if you natual draw the hateful stuff first.

[Notion Thief]

On the topic of Bitterblossom: Another small thing I enjoy is synergy with enightened tutor. I feel like the e-tutor sideboard package has fallen out of favor recently but I have always used one. A single "fun-of" BB in the main deck can be a somewhat consistent thing post board in the matches where it's exelent, as well as be a not embarrasing tutor target if you natual draw the hateful stuff first.

I'm on a 2 enlightened tutor sideboard plan, so a fun-of bitterblossom sounds perfect. I'm tempted to run two BB anyway because it's not a bad natural draw most times (unless you're already dead on board, in which case you're not in great shape anyway)

[tescrin]

I'll admit, I actually tutored it both SB games against Turbo-Depths last time as my best tutor target even with Lage on the field. I handily won both games :laugh:

Two is a comfortable number if you're dead set on being worried about drawing a second one. I've always played three when I'm in black for those couple years. I did it in Junk, Esper, BUG. IMO, if you have DRS, BSK, and Jitte, you probably have enough life gain to not care. Adding a SoLaS if you're worried is fine too.

Two mana is a big deal. It allows much more aggressive Vindicating/Wastelanding your opponent because you're not paying 5 mana for your dudes. It lessens the 3-drops in your deck, so you can potentially play more powerful cards or keep your curve lower. You can run it next to Thalia if you so desire, since it's 3 instead of 7 mana.

I ran it next to Bob in Junk, and it *will* kill you some games. But.. it can't be Charmed/ZP'd/Deluged/Terminus'd to good effect either, and if you get locked out (as I mentioned against Moon decks) it will happen to win you the game a non-trivial amount of times there too haha.

[Jain_Mor]

Speaking of 1/1s, has anyone ever tried smugglers coptor? If so how did it go?

[Notion Thief]

Speaking of 1/1s, has anyone every tried smugglers coptor? If so how did it go?

Some of Hooglands previous lists ran it and I tried it out for a bit as a one-of. I loved it in the dnt matchup because it makes mom/Thalia a lot less scary in combat. It helps keep pressure after a terminus as well. That said sometimes it gets "turned off" by them killing your creatures which let's opponent's semi 2-for-1 you with removal which can hurt. I think it's fringe playable depending on your style but have cut it from my own list with some hesitation

[Notion Thief]

I'll admit, I actually tutored it both SB games against Turbo-Depths last time as my best tutor target even with Lage on the field. I handily won both games :laugh:

Two is a comfortable number if you're dead set on being worried about drawing a second one. I've always played three when I'm in black for those couple years. I did it in Junk, Esper, BUG. IMO, if you have DRS, BSK, and Jitte, you probably have enough life gain to not care. Adding a SoLaS if you're worried is fine too.

Two mana is a big deal. It allows much more aggressive Vindicating/Wastelanding your opponent because you're not paying 5 mana for your dudes. It lessens the 3-drops in your deck, so you can potentially play more powerful cards or keep your curve lower. You can run it next to Thalia if you so desire, since it's 3 instead of 7 mana.

I ran it next to Bob in Junk, and it *will* kill you some games. But.. it can't be Charmed/ZP'd/Deluged/Terminus'd to good effect either, and if you get locked out (as I mentioned against Moon decks) it will happen to win you the game a non-trivial amount of times there too haha.

I'm pretty sold on BB as anti-lands tech. I'm used to the prospect of killing myself with damage, as I've played double Bob any number of times which makes BB seem quaint by comparison.

I'm not as heavy on the land destruction plan as some , and don't run vindicate, instead opting for councils judgment. I also don't run DRS in my list so my life gain is relegated to jitte and batterskull. Might add solas to the list if I go the bitterblossom route .

Either way BB definitely needs to be in my 75 somewhere in some quantity

[tescrin]

I've considered it as a way to make sick SFM/DRS/Blossom tokens better; but I don't like that it's not really a threat. I think I'd rather have Lightning Greaves in it's place, because Greaves has brutal combos by itself too and makes all those guys active/protected.

Coolest Greaves interaction IMO: SFM->Tutor BSK, attach greaves, drop BSK, attach greaves to BSK, swing.
4-mana in a single turn, but not vulnerable to Daze, and a hasted skull comes out of nowhere. This is actually the fastest you can get a BSK swinging without Moxen. (DRS->Greaves or SFM->SFM or Greaves and attach to skull)


The biggest issue with either of these is that it requires a dude on board, and 3-equip-thingys seems to be a good limit to stop because they are practically mulligans you didn't take. Because of that, I'd rather run SoFaI. While Copter is very mana-mild and can maybe go in the old SDT slots, I'd be wary of having too many and I'd probably be wary of your equip numbers at that point.

[Jain_Mor]

Cool thanks guys, you're right I should think of it as a very cheap equipment that can't be found by SFM.

Also, I haven't played enlightened tutor in years. What's a typical sideboard with that look like these days?

[Notion Thief]

Cool thanks guys, you're right I should think of it as a very cheap equipment that can't be found by SFM.

Also, I haven't played enlightened tutor in years. What's a typical sideboard with that look like these days?

It's pretty meta dependent but my personal choices are ethersworn canonist, story circle (should really just be cop-red but I have a nostalgic fondness for story), rest in peace, phyrexian Revoker, engineered plague, as of this thread possibly a bitterblossom.
Rest of the board is 3x surgical, 2x zealous Persecution, 1x toxic deluge, 1x sword of fire and ice.

Depends on what you're looking to beat I suppose

[tescrin]

Cool thanks guys, you're right I should think of it as a very cheap equipment that can't be found by SFM.

Also, I haven't played enlightened tutor in years. What's a typical sideboard with that look like these days?

Small note: I've been floating mostly in Esper at the moment, so YMMV. That said, I would only alter this by 2-3 cards if I was in Junk/DGA, and it was almost identical when I was in Bant. I've been very happy with this Sideboard only making the noted adjustment and playing with the two "fair deck flex slots."

2 Containment Priest
1 Darkblast
___
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Pithing Needle (was original 1/1 Split with revoker, but I want needles vs. Lands more than I want Revoker vs. LED/Heritage/etc.)
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Rest in Peace
1 Humility
1 Chill
1 Dread of Night (recently added as I saw a large uptick in D&T a couple weeks back, and the GP confirmed suspicions)
1 Engineered Plague

The flex slots at the moment are the second Needle, DoN, Darkblast, and Humility. I think it's probably mildly weak to BR reanimator, but I'm in a deck with Forces/Plows/DRS/Blossoms (which are relevant if it's not Elesh Norn), so I don't care much if all my "you lose" hate is T2. I haven't seen the deck *ever* in my history of legacy, so I'd rather have cards that shut down Elves/Goyfs/Dredge/etc than cards that still lose to a Chancellor of the Annex. My meta just contains maybe one player on it and they're new; every other time I've faced Reanimator it's been UB (and mot of them have moved away or moved to other decks.)

That big disclaimer out of the way, this has treated me very well. I feel like Fair games are often high variance* and you have a long time to do your fair-game good-stuff. I want to tear combo in half every time I meet it and win fair MUs on the back of good play; so I don't have much for fair decks (just DoN) that isn't also applicable elsewhere, and DoN shuts down mentor, so is still relevant there against Topless.

*[High Variance in how they play out since your opening hand only somewhat influences the game. Combo MUs are much more about your opening hand, so I cram everything I can so i don't have to mull to oblivion. It's true that a Combo MU is actually higher variance since you draw less cards, blah blah. But what I mean is how the game actually plays out. If your opener is good, you probably win or have at least a competitive game. Having a bad opener in a fair MU is hard to judge, because Plow Plow Fetch, Basic, 3-drop 3-drop is basically just as good as DRS, 3-drop, fetch, fetch, dual, Brutality. It plays different, but in all likelyhood you'll both be at an empty board ~T3 and topdecking. ]

DoN is in part because since I'm running Blossom and the main way fair decks successfully grind with me is Souls/Mentor, may as well also screw D&T at the same time :D. This should be something like a ZP or EE for you.

[Notion Thief]

Small note: I've been floating mostly in Esper at the moment, so YMMV. That said, I would only alter this by 2-3 cards if I was in Junk/DGA, and it was almost identical when I was in Bant. I've been very happy with this Sideboard only making the noted adjustment and playing with the two "fair deck flex slots."

2 Containment Priest
1 Darkblast
___
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Pithing Needle (was original 1/1 Split with revoker, but I want needles vs. Lands more than I want Revoker vs. LED/Heritage/etc.)
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Rest in Peace
1 Humility
1 Chill
1 Dread of Night (recently added as I saw a large uptick in D&T a couple weeks back, and the GP confirmed suspicions)
1 Engineered Plague

The flex slots at the moment are the second Needle, DoN, Darkblast, and Humility. I think it's probably mildly weak to BR reanimator, but I'm in a deck with Forces/Plows/DRS/Blossoms (which are relevant if it's not Elesh Norn), so I don't care much if all my "you lose" hate is T2. I haven't seen the deck *ever* in my history of legacy, so I'd rather have cards that shut down Elves/Goyfs/Dredge/etc than cards that still lose to a Chancellor of the Annex. My meta just contains maybe one player on it and they're new; every other time I've faced Reanimator it's been UB (and mot of them have moved away or moved to other decks.)

That big disclaimer out of the way, this has treated me very well. I feel like Fair games are often high variance* and you have a long time to do your fair-game good-stuff. I want to tear combo in half every time I meet it and win fair MUs on the back of good play; so I don't have much for fair decks (just DoN) that isn't also applicable elsewhere, and DoN shuts down mentor, so is still relevant there against Topless.

*[High Variance in how they play out since your opening hand only somewhat influences the game. Combo MUs are much more about your opening hand, so I cram everything I can so i don't have to mull to oblivion. It's true that a Combo MU is actually higher variance since you draw less cards, blah blah. But what I mean is how the game actually plays out. If your opener is good, you probably win or have at least a competitive game. Having a bad opener in a fair MU is hard to judge, because Plow Plow Fetch, Basic, 3-drop 3-drop is basically just as good as DRS, 3-drop, fetch, fetch, dual, Brutality. It plays different, but in all likelyhood you'll both be at an empty board ~T3 and topdecking. ]

DoN is in part because since I'm running Blossom and the main way fair decks successfully grind with me is Souls/Mentor, may as well also screw D&T at the same time :D. This should be something like a ZP or EE for you.

I had grafdiggers until I decided to add bitterblossom today. Might keep it and drop to 2x surgical. Humility is one of my all-time favorite cards and I only don't run it because in a deathrite-less build 4 Mana is a lot. That said it's super cool with scullers once they've eaten a card because if they die under humility the card doesn't come back. Also just hoses sneak-show , elves, and reanimator if you can resolve it in time. Think it's best in Deathrite/chrome mox builds but when it's good, it's really good in an equipment deck.

Dread of night is great if you run BB and no lingering souls, but I prefer Zealous for the flexibility, and especially the ability to wipe true names and young pyro armies off the board.

[tescrin]

humility stuff
Yeah, I mostly have it so I can tutor it up and "turn off" show and tell. Between that and EDIT: [Needles] you can put them in a very narrow "Through the Breach" area. Priest of course shuts everything down, but if you have no better T1 or T2 play, tutoring humility before your next draw step isn't the worst; especially since Priest doesn't work well with S&T unless you have mana open.

I also used it against Czech Pile a bit to good effect, and it's probably fine against any durdley deck. It's definitely the most fringe of the cards in the side, given that I only bring it in in very rare MUs, where most of the others come in a lot.

[Notion Thief]

stuff you said in response.

I usually lean on heavy discard, Karakas, and councils judgment to stop sneak show. T1 show and tell is a problem that humility definitely fixes, but outside of the nut draw the deck is manageable. Czech pile is a pretty neat use for it. Leovold is less scary as a 1/1 with no ability. I've always enjoyed the synergy of jitte and humility because it breaks all but the craziest ground games wide open. It also makes elves a slam dunk win most times when it resolves

I want to find room for it but need to see how my current list fares for a bit before I swap it in for something. Anything that makes leovold less awful is worth a look though.

[CptHaddock]

These sound a lot like Joe Bernal's DGA list (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=44245) from way back in the day.

I'm still not buying the no DRS argument. Imo DRS does exactly what this deck wants/needs. She fixes your mana (somehow this deck still has the worst manabase out of any 2.5 color deck) while ramping you allowing you to do tempo plays such as turn 2 kill drs -> hymn/wasteland/deploy threat and is also a not so clunky threat. There are going to be games where you run into the more creature based decks where you won't have cards to eat in the yard but that seems like such a bad reason not to run the card. I guess I can see cases where more removal or threads like scullers is better but in my experience you have enough removal/discard to take care of things and sculler is basically a 2 mana peak.

[Notion Thief]

I'm still not buying the no DRS argument. Imo DRS does exactly what this deck wants/needs. She fixes your mana (somehow this deck still has the worst manabase out of any 2.5 color deck) while ramping you allowing you to do tempo plays such as turn 2 kill drs -> hymn/wasteland/deploy threat and is also a not so clunky threat. There are going to be games where you run into the more creature based decks where you won't have cards to eat in the yard but that seems like such a bad reason not to run the card. I guess I can see cases where more removal or threads like scullers is better but in my experience you have enough removal/discard to take care of things and sculler is basically a 2 mana peak.

So my particular take on DGA is pure 2-color, so manafixing is less of an issue. While t2 waste+hymn is great, in such a fast format I find t1 thoughtseize/Inquisition is often invaluable game 1, especially on the play (if I had space I'd board Deathrite in on the draw). I occasionally need WW for Gideon and councils judgment, or BB for Lili, but everything else in the deck requires a single mana of any color so I can run pretty smoothly on plains, swamp, (x) where I slightly prefer x to be a white source. That makes my Manabase pretty resilient to waste/blood moon effects already. Where I play, Deathrite is super prevalent so leaning on it to smooth my own Mana curve out is risky and I'd rather just build the deck in a way that doesn't rely on DRS.

Deathrite is clearly one of the most powerful creatures ever printed, but I find curving out naturally with this deck t1 thoughtseize/plow/Inquisition into t2 stoneforge/sculler with near perfect information about your opponent's hand works just fine. If I know what lands they have in hand/on the battlefield I can decide to waste to keep them off a color or Mana screw them, or I can play another card that disrupts their plan better if they have a lot of Mana and/or one drops on hand. Deathrite-> waste/hymn VS thoughtseize/Inquisition -> sculler/SFM/collective brutality both have merits, dunno for sure if no-DRS is right yet, but so far the deck runs really well for me and I haven't run into Mana issues. No Deathrite is more geared to stopping fast combo like elves, ANT, sneak-show while Deathrite versions are probably better vs death and taxes, miracles, burn (although this matchup isn't bad in general) etc. Think both versions are great vs delver decks so I think it depends on which decks you're hedging against as to which form you'd prefer

[Ganfar]

Some of Hooglands previous lists ran it and I tried it out for a bit as a one-of. I loved it in the dnt matchup because it makes mom/Thalia a lot less scary in combat. It helps keep pressure after a terminus as well. That said sometimes it gets "turned off" by them killing your creatures which let's opponent's semi 2-for-1 you with removal which can hurt. I think it's fringe playable depending on your style but have cut it from my own list with some hesitation

The biggest issue with Copter I had it was the worse two drop in the deck. I would rather play Bob, Stoneforge or Tidehollowsculler on turn 2. Copter don't make any boardpressen like the other two drops.

[Notion Thief]

The biggest issue with Copter I had it was the worse two drop in the deck. I would rather play Bob, Stoneforge or Tidehollowsculler on turn 2. Copter don't make any boardpressen like the other two drops.

It was a situational card for sure, is only play it if I had 2+ creatures on the board. It was most useful in situations where I had to deluge the board clear since I could drop a creature and crew immediately after to maintain pressure, but early game it costs you pressure and that's something this deck can ill afford to do given it's already slightly anemic clock at times.

[Zauzich]

A big pull to DRS is that I want a high density of unconditional turn one plays. With SDT banned (2 slots) I went up from 4 to 5 one mana discard (3TS/2IoK from 4TS) to go with 4 DRS. The 9 still seems like enough, and of cource we have 4 STP, but you can't plow a ponder. Leaving that first mana to go fallow feels bad. Maybe it's insignificant in the long run of a game but grinding out of a tempo hole feels way harder than when I keep pace early.

Sculler can be nice tempo as well. I get a strange looks on occasion when I take a two drop and leave the removal spell but that one turn speed-bump lingers. I almost always would rather them spend an answer on sculler now than keep an answer in the bank for them to get back later.

[tescrin]

I disagree on both points, but it depends on the 2-drop. If you're letting them kill your sculler to get their Goyf back, that's just bad I think; but you're letting them pump their goyf and cast it. Instead I'd take the removal because you both net board presence but you know that they have to dig for removal or let you be a card ahead.

Sculler, just like Queller (a card I use 4 of right now), is Temporal-CA. If you win while he has a card, he had net CA. You want CA. Therefore taking removal to gain CA until your opponent finds a (potentially nonexistent) answer, is very good. Queller is *a lot better* (counterspell vs. discard, except this is better than a normal counterspell, evasion and 3 toughness are both big too) but I still like Sculler quite a bit.

Regardless; without being able to take high advantage of the tempo play (such as landing Liliana and garnering a soft lock due to an empty board) you take the "temporary CA" route every time. This is why he's so good against Combo (because he's CA) and why people are meh on him in normal decks (same thing.)

_____

All that said, I'm not sure that Sculler is good if you have a Leo meta-game. It's not a "may" ability and thus he'll actually grant negative CA if Leo is on the field, meaning he's either a dead card in hand or that he's actively bad.

Also, I do think it'd be reasonable for people to try out Wasteland Strangler again. I tried him next to Queller and my only issue was that he was sorcery speed, which screws up the way my deck works; but in a WB deck; I think it's quite good. Plow + DRS + 2-3 Sculler is enough, and you can go heavier if you want.

[Notion Thief]

_____

All that said, I'm not sure that Sculler is good if you have a Leo meta-game. It's not a "may" ability and thus he'll actually grant negative CA if Leo is on the field, meaning he's either a dead card in hand or that he's actively bad.

Also, I do think it'd be reasonable for people to try out Wasteland Strangler again. I tried him next to Queller and my only issue was that he was sorcery speed, which screws up the way my deck works; but in a WB deck; I think it's quite good. Plow + DRS + 2-3 Sculler is enough, and you can go heavier if you want.

I've played with strangler before, and it's great if you have a lot of dnt , Maverick and the like in your meta. It's an excellent follow up to sculler and plow (even without DRS). My meta is just less creature heavy so I'm not running it right now but I agree it's a solid card .

Leovold is definitely annoying. The only plus is they draw before scullers ability resolves so if they're hell-bent you get to mill them for one and it's still a 2/2 body. Overall though leovold eats removal at all costs as fast as I can find it. That card is bad news.

[Zauzich]

Yea, maybe I got carried away with "almost always" regarding leaving them removal in hand to kill sculler. I get the card advantage arguement but the extra card you get is a 2/2 with the special ability of drawing them a removal spell when it dies. There are situations where that's a fine card to have, but in the early turns of fair matchups I'd just as soon get the predictable one for one out of the way rather than have the swing back hanging over my head. I expect having blue cards to forstall or prevent that eventuality makes a difference.

[tescrin]

I'd say if you're going to do that, running Mom is prudent. Mom + Sculler is pure gas imo

[Mr. Safety]

I'd say if you're going to do that, running Mom is prudent. Mom + Sculler is pure gas imo

This is where I got the idea to use her in Rock/Junk. Posting to say thanks for the inspiriation. ;)

[Jain_Mor]

So I won a 6 round + top 8 tournament. Insane games, don't know how. I think my deck was flawed but I've been running all sorts of Bwg variants well recently and am now at 19-7 (~73%) winrate accross last 3 competitive tournaments I've played. So I must be doing something right. I'll write a report and decklist sometime later this week. I played 3 Chrome Mox, they were sweet.

[tescrin]

So I won a 6 round + top 8 tournament. Insane games, don't know how. I think my deck was flawed but I've been running all sorts of Bwg variants well recently and am now at 19-7 (70%) winrate accross last 3 competitive tournaments I've played. So I must be doing something right. I'll write a report and decklist sometime later this week. I played 3 Chrome Mox, they were sweet.

3 Mox seems high, but I'm very curious to hear the list! I think you can run more Mox next to Brutality since it make use of the extras. Can't wait

[Ganfar]

After play some matches with Liliana of the Last Hope, I think Last Hope is more of a meta card or sideborad card.

If the meta is lot of Elves, DT and Young Pyro, Last Hope is amazing. Thorse kind of matchups when Veil is less good (They have many cretures about and no cards in hand)

But Last Hope is very medicore against control and combo decks. Veil can always do some impact in every match up and is good aganist the combo decks, our true worst match up.

I would like to add Last Hope in the sideborad but I have already Gidedon, Ally of Zendikar and Kaya in the sideborad against grindy decks. Don't if I want to cut them.

Anyone tested Gideon of the Trails? I think he has been okey for me mostly

[CptHaddock]

After play some matches with Liliana of the Last Hope, I think Last Hope is more of a meta card or sideborad card.

If the meta is lot of Elves, DT and Young Pyro, Last Hope is amazing. Thorse kind of matchups when Veil is less good (They have many cretures about and no cards in hand)

But Last Hope is very medicore against control and combo decks. Veil can always do some impact in every match up and is good aganist the combo decks, our true worst match up.

I would like to add Last Hope in the sideborad but I have already Gidedon, Ally of Zendikar and Kaya in the sideborad against grindy decks. Don't if I want to cut them.

Anyone tested Gideon of the Trails? I think he has been okey for me mostly

Tried Gideon, I liked him against storm and that is about it. I don't really have enough games with him against Delver to say if he's good enough or not, he does buy you a turn from being attacked by the creatures they normally play. I agree about Last Hope but I think she's really good in the midrange/control matchups where she can basically rebuy creatures and threaten her ultimate. Still haven't tried Kaya, I should probably do that.

[Notion Thief]

Anyone tested Gideon of the Trails? I think he has been okey for me mostly


Ive been running 2x Gideon of the Trials for a while now. Its obviously good vs storm, and it helps the burn matchup by eating burn spells, nerfing eidolon, or just stopping a swiftspear. I keep it in vs any deck with goyfs or knights, and dont forget it can stop sword of fire and ices 2 damage ability directly as well, which helps stop an opponent on stoneblade from sniping your board away. I've found it to be surprisingly versatile, and sometimes the ultimate buys you the extra turn or two you need to turn a game around. If you're not starting down open white Mana, he's a pretty effective beater that can pick up a jitte or sword. Just watch out for swords to Plowshares.
Also remember if your life total is negative vs death and taxes, flickerwisp will ruin your day. Can confirm from experience.

[Jain_Mor]

Okay, sorry for the delay. I find it difficult to think enough about magic to write a report write after playing it for a whole day.

TL;DR: I defeated everyone that I played. Chrome mox is sweet if you can make up the card loss while capitialising on the tempo. Green spells are sad now (I'm cutting the two I played), unless they also happen to be hybrid black mana.

So I moved off of junk to one of its cousins, deadguy, because:

a) I wanted to play a 2 colour mana base for hymn to tourach, it's one of the best "get-em" cards we (bgw mages) have access too, that's effective in most matchups

b) I felt like goyf was getting worse because of the TNNs, Pyro tokens, anglers and strixes going around. I love having the fast clock against combo, but...

c) Decay is no longer a necessary card because of top ban

These three points led me to drop green (sad_face.jpg) to a light splash for deathrie shaman. Ontop of those points I knew lingering souls was going to be my mvp (ignores most of the cards that mess with goyf + can race TNN) and that I wanted to try and shore up one of the weakest components of junk decks, which is tempo. Our distant blue realtives and delver have free counter spells, combo has fast mana, the chalice/stompy decks have sol lands, and we got.. nothing. So I wanted to give chrome mox a shot (I don't like mox diamond, if you're going to play that many lands and flood out every game, play lands, its a good deck).

With that in mind I set my self the tournament goals of: cast turn 1 bob, cast turn 1 hymn and cast turn 1 sfm. I acheived all 3, though the hymn didn't resolve, so I'm not sure it counted. The others won me their respective games.

This was my list:

21 zero-drops
4 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Scrubland
2 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Wasteland
3 Chrome Mox

13 one-drops
4 Thoughtsieze
4 StP
4 DRS
1 Mirri's Guile

15 two-drops
4 Hymn
2 Collective Brutality
1 Sylvan Library
4 Bob
4 SFM

8 three-drops
4 Lingering Souls
3 LotV
1 Council's Judgment

3 equipment
1 Jitte
1 SoFaI
1 BSK

Sideboard
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Duress
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pithing Needle
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Spirit of the Labia
1 Containment Priest
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Rest in Peace
1 Engineered Plague
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Humility

Quick note, the Mirri's Guile, Sylvan Lib and fourth Lingering Souls were a last minute addition on the day. I'd been testing 3 Bitterblossom in those slots as another proactive 2 mana spell. However in testing the night before the event, I played a bunch of games against death and taxes (were I thought BB would be good) and it just lost me lots of life, then chump blocked a bunch before I died nearly every time. So I added the souls (which are great) and the guile + library to be cards good against midrange/control that aren't useless against combo.

SO, the tournament:

Round 1: Bye. Sad_Face.jpg Record: 1-0 (0-0 in games)
I was pretty dissapointed to be honest. I came to play first, win second.

Round 2: RUG Delver (Mandrills, no Mongeese). LOSS, Record: 1-1 (1-2 in games)
G1 (draw): We trade cards and I finish with a BSK.

Sideboard: -2 Bob, -1 Library. +1 Tutor +1 RIP, +1 Bridge

G2: I end up with no white mana after some wastelands and stifles, with all white cards in hand and he mandrills me over 5 painful turns.

G3: Wow this was a good one. We trade cards and after a hymn he is really low on resources, I resolve a souls, and then a Jitte, with another souls and SFM in hand. I honestly believe I'm comfortably 90% to win. He is cantripping fruiously. Comes to my turn, I equip jitte to spirit and attack, he casts sulfur elemental and my world crashes around me XD He bolts my later SFM and forces a liliana, then sulfur elemental gets there over 4 painful turns. Heart broken, but great game.

Round 3: Eldrazi Stompy. WIN, Record: 2-1 (3-3 in games)
G1 (draw, a common theme): He gets two 2/1s in play on turn 1, I thoughtsieze a endless one and he can't play his thorn because he lands are eye and temple. I waste temple and play drs, next turn cast souls. He offers trade, I happily accept. A hymn + wasteland later and a SFM seals the deal as he flounders on mana.

Sideboard: -2 Collective, -1 Guile, -1 Library. +2 Tutor, +1 Bridge, +1 Humility

G2: He casts T1 chalice and I have a hand of one drops and a bob, do not get there.

G3: I T1 Bob, he stays in play for a game that lasts 13 turns or so. I end up with an ensnaring bridge in play and 3 chrome moxes doing work keeping my hand size down. Careful drs activations keep me at 2 life while i desperately cast all the spells i draw so his army can't attack me. Eventually Jitte does its job in extra turns. Sweet game.

Round 4: Grixis Delver. LOSS, Record: 2-2 (4-5 in games)
G1 (draw): We wasteland each other a lot, trade resources on shamans, I run out of mana and he rides a delver and a daze to victory.

Sideboard: -2 Bob, -1 Library. +2 Tutor, +1 Plague

G2: I T1 SFM get BSK, and it goes all the way.

G3: Close game, but after wastlenads I dont have 3 mana to cast lili, and ancient grudge kills my BSK as TNN kills me slowly.

Round 5: BR Reanimator. WIN, Record: 3-2 (6-5 in games)
G1 (draw): He loots with a simian, no creature in GY, plays land to thoughtsieze me, takes StP instead of my own TS and then plays petal and passes with two cards in hand. I'm suprised he took my StP since if reanimates a griselbrand it does next to nothing, so I can only assume my TS in hand is useless because he is hoping to topdeck something because he has an entomb in hand perhaps. Anyway, I draw a DRS for my turn and say a small prayer of thanks to Pikula. I hesitate, thinking about casting my TS but then cast DRS becuase I'm convinced my TS will do nothing. EoT he entombs grisel as I suspected, and now I assume the other card in his hand is a land or mana and he just wants to draw a reanimation spell. He draws and sighs and passes back to me. DRS wins the game. It turns out he had animate dead in his hand and he was hoping for a land, so I have no idea why he didn't take my TS *shrug* Playing reanimator is so intense.

Sideboard: -1 Library, -4 SFM, -3 Equip, -4 Souls. +2 Surgical, +1 Duress, +1 Needle, +2 Tutor, +1 Canonist, +1 Spirit, +1 Priest, +1 RIP, +1 Bridge, +1 Humility

G2: I T0 surgical to stop him from griselbranding, TS away another reanimation spell leaving him with nothing, a canonist begins beats and then a drs joins to seal the deal.

Round 6: Mono Red Sneak Attack. WIN, Record: 4-2 (8-5 in games)
G1 (play finally): Discard and Bob stops most of his wrath, a StP eats a hasty Worldspine Wurm, and then a SFM + SoFaI finshes him while an ulted Lili eats his sneak attack.

Sideboard: -2 SFM, -1 Jitte, -4 Souls. +1 Duress, +2 Tutor, +1 Priest, +1 Teeg, +1 Bridge, +1 Humility

G2: Chrome mox beats blood moon, chalice on 1 is ignored with my great two drops, I draw enough land to ignore trinisphere too. At one point a StP eats another worldspine wurm, as me and my opponent forget his chalice. I eagrely ult Lili to secure the game, getting rid of his sneak attack and chalice for 1...

Top 8, also known as, "Time to redeem my delver matchup".
I'm the lowest seed, so by the end of the tournament I only got to play first for 1 of my 8 rounds. That's magic :) Notably, I won every game I was on the play.

Quarter Finals: UR Delver. WIN, Record: 5-2 (10-5 in games)
G1 (draw): He keeps 7, I mull to 5, and think "not like this". My hand is, land land mox jitte stp. I StP a delver, resolve the jitte. Draw and cast a lingering souls, use a hymn and ride jitte to victory. At one point I casually don't block his prowess dudes while at 12 life and then realise to my horror that two bolts would kill me. He didn't have it. Great.

Sideboard: -4 Bob. +1 Duress, +1 Tutor, +1 Canonist, +1 Spirit

G2: We grind all the way down until I have a BSK, Guile and Mox in hand with 5 lands in play against his two cards, which must be reactive, and 3 lands. I decide to play around daze and cast mox, imprinting guile and then casting BSK. He Forces pitching daze (cool) and then we both have nothing. I get to draw liliana though and later on a drs for the win.

Semi Finals: RUG Delver. Win, Record: 6-2 (12-6 in games)
G1 (draw): So this is the same guy that blew me out with the sulfur elemental. He just does what delver does and I'm on the back foot throughout the first game, a mox would have been great.

G2: We trade wastelands, I get a SFM powered out by a mox, fetching BSK. He dismembers her but can't answer the second SFM or the BSK. Eventually it trades with a mandrills but I'm already too far ahead.

G3: I waste his T1 Volc and he stifles it, uh oh. That's okay, he still struggles on mana and I end up with a SFM and a Bob in play while he cantrips a bunch after I answer a few of his threats, and he can't keep up. A sulfur elemental does come down at some point, but it doesn't do much thanks to SFM now being a 2-1.

Finals: Grixis Delver. WIN, Record 7-2 (14-7)
So these matches were crazy awesome, the same guy I played in round 4. Hence I can claim I defeated everybody that I played, despite actually losing twice, since I then beat them when it really mattered.

G1 (draw): We trade resources and creatures, but he ends up with a DRS and we continue to trade out while he drains me to death.

G2: I have a swamp and DRS in play, there's only one land in my graveyard and none in his. He has a flipped delver in play, and I know he has a TNN and angler in hand from a TS the previous turn, he then flipped delver to ponder, cast it, shuffles and played the dual land he drew. He has 4 cards in his graveyard. I have a collective brutality in my hand and some three drops I can't cast. The obvious choice is to cast collective brutality can kill the delver and then hope he doesn't draw any land, a gprobe, or cantrip in to anyland since I have no way of answering the angler or the TNN for next few turns (unless I draw really lucky). Alternatively I can eat a cantrip from his graveyard and then he can't cast angler next turn unless he draws a fetch or cantrip in to fetch but I take my delver beats. For some reason I take option 2, I'm pretty sure it's wrong, or high risk high reward. He draws and casts ponder and find a dual land, so he can't cast Angler or TNN, I take my delver medicine and then draw hymn. Wow. Exile the only land in graveyards, hymn his two threats away, and then take my delver medicine again next turn. Eventually I find mana to cast brutality and take the game with DRS plus liliana after e-tutoring for a chrome mox at some point to get more mana, and choosing to tick liliana up to 3 pitching a bsk (hard choice).

G3: The Decider, also known as "The Rollercoaster". We trade removal spells for our DRSs and wastelands for each others lands. He draws an extra shaman though and I have two swamps and a wasteland while only drawing white cards after he forces my lili. He ends up with a flipped delver, an unflipped delver and an active deathrite shaman against my swamp x2 wasteland x2, 6 life and 3 white cards in hand (Souls, SFM, SFM). My friend comes over, looks at the board state, my life total, cards in hand and then walks away to get his stuff, this won't take long he imagines.

I prayed once again to Pikula, and drew a marsh flats. I fetch plains and cast and flashback lingering souls. Now two key things happen. 1) He fetches eot to find a second underground sea to drain me with shaman (he tapped the other for the unflipped delver for some reason) and finds a tropical island instead to gain 2 life. He forgot that I wasted his first underground sea way back at the start of the game and clearly has no more black mana for shaman except the one in play. In his upkeep delver flips to a revealed ancient grudge. His only card in hand. Makes my SFMs look bad. He attacks the two flipped delvers into my souls, and we trade off (a mistake for him) and passes with an underground sea, trop, volc, drs and ancient grudge in hand. I draw something irrelvant (I think a mox), I waste his sea, he drains me to 3, I'm dead to any future bolts. I waste his trop and then play sfm getting BSK. He draws and casts forked bolt, killing my SFM and attacks for 1, I'm at 2. I draw SoFaI, play my second SFM get Jitte. He plays a volc and passes. I draw collective brutality, pitching mox and SoFaI, killing his shaman, discarding his ancient grudge and draining him for 2 so I'm out of bolt range. He no longer has access to any black or green mana, so can't flash back grudge or cast any shamans, anglers or therapies. I get BSK out and suddenly I'm winning. It felt really great to punish one of these greedy 4 colour decks.

Conclusion
Deck was interesting, hymn, bob and drs are as powerful as ever, mox gave me the tempo I was looking for. I'd play 4 if I could get rid of them with a smuggler's coptor or something (but I don't think copotor is good enough, especially in multiples), brutality serves a similar role. Lingering souls did exactly what I wanted in the meta and SFM fixed my end game and aggro match ups. I was worried that artifact removal would be abundant, and it was kind of, my BSK was killed a few times but I guess "dies to X" isn't new.

Bob, hymn, SFM and Souls made up for chrome mox card disadvantage, chrome mox and brutality are great tempo plays, I wish I drew brutality more often.

Negative aspects: Found hard to find a plains and I needed more mana. I realised that chrome mox usually makes black mana since I have way more black spells than white, so my fetchlands should be able to find my plains so I can play around wasteland and blood moon better. As a result -3 Verdant, +4 Windswept Heath. That way you have 9 sources of black mana that get around nonbasic hate, and 9 for plains.

The guile and sylvan library, made my mana worse (as I feared) and were irrelvant in most of my matchups. However I didn't play midrange or control. But for now I'll be cutting them both for the 22nd land (a windswept or a karakas if you like), and the 3rd brutality because that card impressed me so much.

Of note, I really wish I had a toxic deluge or two. Perhaps enlightened tutor is unecessary, or that the council's judgment should be a deluge main. I'm not sure to be honest.

Powerful deck though despite the above isssues. I'll be playing it going forward for now.

Happy to answer any questions and discuss all ideas. Cheers!

You can find mine and the other top 8 lists here:
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=16108&d=299261&f=LE

[Notion Thief]

Congrats on the great run. I saw this list on Top8 and was really curious about the road to victory there. Thanks for the detailed report.

I tried moving away from chrome mox for a bit, but i think youre right that the t1 plays it allows let you get out in front in a way thats critical to this deck and its worth the card disadvantage. You mentioned that your chrome moxes often only make black mana due to the color distribution. What are your thoughts on tidehollow sculler slotting in in the place of library/guile? It pitches nicely to chrome mox, can be tutored for, and helps out-tempo opponents and carries swords just fine.

I like the e-tutor board plan a lot. For some reason the idea of running an ensnaring bridge in the board had not occurred to me before now. Is that your go-to board option vs turbo-depths/lands (besides surgical i assume)?

Were there any cards you wish you had in your 75 during the tournament? (Besides deluge main)

[Zauzich]

Sculler is an artifact cant pitch to chrome.

[Notion Thief]

Sculler is an artifact cant pitch to chrome.

+10 read the f#$_ing card points for me!

My absentmindedness aside, whats the current opinion on sculler? I have a lot of arguments with a friend about whether the card is good or not in this deck. Im in the pro-camp but not sure if im in the minority there.

[tescrin]

I know that the deck doesn't see a lot of Top8s at major tournies, but the one that got it from my area ran 3. It's very good with mom and 1-CMC discard as a way to just keep putting your opponent off balance. Going to a Liliana right after can be GG as your opp can be basically out of cards at that point and it may be that by the time they get their card back, you just tick up liliana anyway.

I think his synergy with Strangler (and that cards' ability to really sway the D&T/Maverick MUs) makes it that much better. The fact that Sculler can eat PFire, Loam, or other recurring cards without them recurring is a big deal too, if you're fortunate enough to grab one of them.

IMO the core of this deck should look like:

4 DRS
4 Mom
2-3 Sculler
4 SFM
4 Bob

1 BSK
1 Jitte

4 Plow
5 1 CMC discard (Iok, Therapy, TSeize)
3 [Decay or Kolaghan's]

and fill from there. This is tried and true, and you'll be hard pressed to make the deck significantly better. That gives you 4-6 slots to screw around with (Lili, Strangler, Souls, Blossom, another equip, Thalia, Shriekmaw, Hero, etc.) and you're set. It sounds like an exaggeration, but the above wins games and has a reasonable enough combo game that if they don't T1 you, you have a substantial chance to win. DGA is probably better than D&T in the current meta if people played it much, simply on the back of better CA, less susceptibility to fast combo, and mainable (and in color) sweepers for Elves. Unlike D&T, DGA can hold its own against Elves just with sideboard/mainboard cards it's already happy to run for other reasons.

D&T's major thing is that it has a leg up in the Delver MU, but this deck is no slouch there either. But a mix of no one playing it and the feel-bad draw-deads it gets leaves it as a relatively obscure deck.

[Notion Thief]

I think the lack of top8s was at least partially a function of miracles being an infuriating matchup. With it getting knocked down a peg i think deadguy moves a few rungs up the ladder. Strangler tech is something i totally forgot about, and im going to revisit that when i play this weekend. I think Collective Brutality has a place in the core cards list now. I run 2 and its useful vs just about everything.
Ive been playing with thalias main for a couple weeks but i think im cutting them at this point. They jam up my game as badly as my opponent, and the deck is intrinsically full of combo-fighting goodness anyway. Bitterblossom is in my 75 somewhere because lands is kinda prevalent in my area.
The biggest challenge in building this deck for me is that there are so many cards i want to play in so few flex spots.
Councils judgment, toxic deluge, gideon of trials, sword of fire and ice, hymn, the list is endless for a handful of flex slots. Think Ill just run deadguy battle of wits and have it all!

[tescrin]

I think the lack of top8s was at least partially a function of miracles being an infuriating matchup. With it getting knocked down a peg i think deadguy moves a few rungs up the ladder.

I think Collective Brutality has a place in the core cards list now. I run 2 and its useful vs just about everything.

The biggest challenge in building this deck for me is that there are so many cards i want to play in so few flex spots.
[..]sword of fire and ice[..]

- I agree that Miracles was a big problem for the deck; I think this deck would see some Tops if it were played more

- I agree that Brutality is quite good. I wouldn't think running even 3 is a problem, since it can pitch itself against most MUs and still be useful.

- I think SoFaI should be mandatory, but I know some will disagree. Colorless removal that turns any idiot into a brutal huge clock and has the potential to swing 2-CA every turn (even more if you decide to run Crusader) and that's just insane. 2-CA is often the difference between a win and a loss, and it can get it every turn

[Jain_Mor]

First, Mini report:

Played a 26 player legacy fnm (Cardiff, UK). Went 3-1 for second place, beating UW standstill/helm 2-1 (close-stuff, bob and discard doing work), Deadguy mirror 2-0 (thanks to mox and souls breaking it) and Junk Nic fit 2-1 (thanks to souls, hymns and T1 Bobs) and losing to OmniShow 0-2. I'm quite comfortable with normal Sneak&Show, but OmniShow has been getting me for a long time now. I've realised its beause they 1) play more tutors (wish and intuition) 2) can cast emrakul to get turn trigger, meaning liliana and council's do nothing and 3) he got around my humility by relesing the ants..

So, including FNMs im 24-9 at the moment (~73%). Pretty silly. Want to play on modo, but lilianas is $70... Might attend some of the MKM series in europe too.

Second, Responses:

@Notion Thief, Thanks :) I love tidehollow sculler, it's one of my favourite cards in all of magic. But I don't think you can play him without mom, and thats probably a different deck, more like D&T splash black, with no discard but thalia, bob, sculler and vial etc. Probably wasteland dude as well. Does sound fun mind you... but without mom he doesn't get to attack for much against non-combo decks and just sits there until they remove him :/

Ensnaring bridge is great when your main threats are a bunch of 1/1s :P yea I board it in, along with humility, against marit lage decks, reanimator, showntell, eldrazi, and sometimes midrange decks as a psuedo sweeper.

Any cards I wish I had? Hmm.. it really was mostly Toxic Deluge. I think there's a good midrange/control deck that can be built using that card as a 2-4 of. I'ts been on my todo list for quite a while. People just don't respect sweepers in G1 in legacy, especially against non-UW decks.

I obviously miss decay, being able to hit chalices and other oddities is relly useful. The lack of a decent clock against combo is a weakness too, so goyf is missed there. But that's it really. They're just weaknesses made up for by the power of chrome mox and hymn imo.

@Zauzich, lol thank you, I also hadn't realised that. That said I hadn't stuck them in the same deck yet, but I had considered it XD Cheers. Really wish I could pitch a jitte to a mox.. or a mox itself for that matter, but I see why the designed the card that way.

@tescrin, I'd call the core Bob and SFM, discard, removal and a better mana base then 3 colour decks. I'm not a fan of mom because she doesn't do anything on her own, unlike the rest of the deck. You want to trade down resources with you opponent a lot. That said, I haven't really given her much of a chance, and I will be trying her again soon. Maybe I'll fall in love, who knows. I'm also a big fan of SoFaI

I'd really recommend lingering souls in the meta right now, them and bob.

[Ganfar]

Second, Responses:

@Notion Thief, Thanks :) I love tidehollow sculler, it's one of my favourite cards in all of magic. But I don't think you can play him without mom, and thats probably a different deck, more like D&T splash black, with no discard but thalia, bob, sculler and vial etc. Probably wasteland dude as well. Does sound fun mind you... but without mom he doesn't get to attack for much against non-combo decks and just sits there until they remove him :/


I have played Tidehollow for years and it has always been good. Don't need mom.

Bob can't either attack into big cretrues. Tidehollow can take away removel and threats. It's not often he gets removel andcwhen it does it gone down hill away ways. Tidehollow is great against combo, that is our worst matchup.

[Jain_Mor]

@Ganfar, You don't care if bob can't attack. He just sits there and threatens to win the game if they can't answer him. You don't care if SFM can't attack, you're already up a card and she can make big creatures that can attack. You don't care if Shaman can't attack, he gives you a mana advantage and drains your opponent. Spirits usually can attack.

You care if Sculler can't attack because otherwise he's a two mana discard spell that trades 1 for 1 at your opponents leisure with a 1 mana removal spell. If most of the meta was combo, I'd play 4 in a heartbeat, but it's not. Collective brutality sits in the same kind of slot, is easier to cast, is permanent discard, removal and a way to race, relevant in more matchups etc.

Also if you're saying when the opponent ever gets to cast a single removal spell on one of your creatures, then "the game has gone down hill anyway" then you reaaaallyy want mom to stop that right?

I'd play Sculler in sideboard, but there are better hatebears.

Where as if you are playing mum and Vial, then you want as many disruptive creatures as possible and then Sculler becomes an extremely powerful card. My opinion.

[Wilkin]

Got 2nd in a very small tournament today. 13 people. 5 rounds, cut to top 4. $200 credit for my troubles. Went 3-1-1 in Swiss. Beat 3 Variations of Delver and lost to Elves.

Beat Delver in Swiss and lost to Elves again in finals.

Tried Bontu's Last Reckoning today. It's ok. I don't want 2 Toxic Deluges, so going with a split. There is a real cost involved if it resolves but at same time i'm usually happy it cleared the board for at least a turn.

Going to keep it in for a while. Happy I did ok today, was on a bit of a dry spell.

[Ganfar]

Got 2nd in a very small tournament today. 13 people. 5 rounds, cut to top 4. $200 credit for my troubles. Went 3-1-1 in Swiss. Beat 3 Variations of Delver and lost to Elves.

Beat Delver in Swiss and lost to Elves again in finals.

Tried Bontu's Last Reckoning today. It's ok. I don't want 2 Toxic Deluges, so going with a split. There is a real cost involved if it resolves but at same time i'm usually happy it cleared the board for at least a turn.

Going to keep it in for a while. Happy I did ok today, was on a bit of a dry spell.

You have Chrome Mox in the deck right? Should work well with Bontud's Last Reckoinig

[Notion Thief]

Thats a pretty nice prize pool! I went 2-1 this week in my local legacy grinder. Beat ANT and BR Reanimator, lost to TES. Very combo heavy day, but the beauty of this deck is really that it doesnt fold to anything (except maybe belcher, but that doesnt count). Ive retutned to running Deathrite, i really wanted the deck to not need him, but its just too strong to not include. Gideon continues to impress me. Bontus last reckoning seems neat but since im chrome mox-less it seems a bit too clunky, although i am intrigued by playing it and gideon side by side. Might give it a shot when my preorder comes in.

[Jain_Mor]

fjaulnir went 5-0 with a modified version of my list on modo (cut a mox for a karakas, cut a souls for a mirris, cut a lotv for a last hope and made some sideboard changes we discussed)

Twitch video of it here: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/159156728

however, he kept the awful mtgo UI sounds on so... I muted it and put it on 2x speed :P
I've invited him to join us here

[Fjaulnir]

Yeah sorry about those sounds, it was the 1st video I ever recorded so I had no clue what I was doing and the sound thing really backfired with most people it seems.



I'll copy my Reddit comment on the Last Hope:

I have access to all cards I need so the Liliana, the Last Hope was just to try it out and not a budget choice. Because in Pox I've been really happy with a 3-1 split between Veil-Hope, so I wanted to see if it was worth it here as well. Sadly I don't think I ever drew her in the league?

The potential upside is big: killing Pyromancers/Elves/Strixes/DnT critters while not needing to minus, and having the potential to rebuy your Confidant or Stoneforge Mystic, and milling into a random Lingering Souls doesn't seem bad either (although I wouldn't minus her until I already have a useful creature to buy back).

Because the deck already has problems with True-Name preboard (compared to Pox who can kill a TNN in 10 different ways) it may not be worth it here, but I like experimenting with cards.
(I've already tried leagues with Horizon Canopy, Urborg etc but decided to cut these, the Karakas is the only land chance that stuck around because it did win me a lot more games than losing me due to being wasteable/nonblack; the others were a pain in the ass more often due to their drawbacks)


EDIT: but yeah this has been one of the more fun decks I've played recently - I'm not always a fan of the fair Deadguy Ale decks, but Chrome Mox to ramp out turn 1 Hymns is what's really making it work for my playstyle :wink: I'm around 16-9 with versions of it on Magic Online.

[CptHaddock]

EDIT: but yeah this has been one of the more fun decks I've played recently - I'm not always a fan of the fair Deadguy Ale decks, but Chrome Mox to ramp out turn 1 Hymns is what's really making it work for my playstyle :wink: I'm around 16-9 with versions of it on Magic Online.

I need to get your luck with DGA, everytime I play a league with DGA I get to lose to 3 elves players in a row. Regardless thanks for making some DGA content, always happy to see more.

[Fjaulnir]

I need to get your luck with DGA, everytime I play a league with DGA I get to lose to 3 elves players in a row. Regardless thanks for making some DGA content, always happy to see more.

Ouch. Siding or maindecking some Zealous or more Deluges an option maybe? A lot depends on time zone as well, by choosing to play during daytime or late at night I can kinda pick a more unfair or a fairer meta depending on which regular grinders are usually on at the time.

[Jain_Mor]

@ Fjaulnir, your finish with my/your/our list made it to the mothership :)

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=16200&f=LE

@Cptn, yea whats your sideboard like? I/we play Spirit, canonist, teeg, containment priest, eng plague, needle, tutor and deluges, plus chrome moxes to get a quick start.

[CptHaddock]

@Cptn, yea whats your sideboard like? I/we play Spirit, canonist, teeg, containment priest, eng plague, needle, tutor and deluges, plus chrome moxes to get a quick start.

Eh it's not that bad, just exaggerating. I seem to draw really poorly against elves for some reason, I guess that is the life of a nonblue player.

2 Bayou
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Swamp
2 Polluted Delta
3 Scrubland
4 Dark Confidant
4 Wasteland
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Hero of Bladehold
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Lingering Souls
2 Chrome Mox
4 Thoughtseize
1 Batterskull
1 Plains
1 Fatal Push
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Karakas
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Marsh Flats

1 Engineered Explosives
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Containment Priest
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Pithing Needle
2 Collective Brutality

[Wilkin]

Yeah, guaranteed payout is nice. Turned $30 credit into $200 credit.

Actually got to cast Collective Brutality a few times. I seem to whiff quite a bit on the discard ability. Still gonna keep it though. Very versatile card and a nice Tempo play. Still waiting for the day cast it vs Burn. LOL, kill your Goblin Guide, discard their Lightning Bolt and drain life for 2.

[Ganfar]

I'll copy my Reddit comment on the Last Hope:

I have access to all cards I need so the Liliana, the Last Hope was just to try it out and not a budget choice. Because in Pox I've been really happy with a 3-1 split between Veil-Hope, so I wanted to see if it was worth it here as well. Sadly I don't think I ever drew her in the league?

The potential upside is big: killing Pyromancers/Elves/Strixes/DnT critters while not needing to minus, and having the potential to rebuy your Confidant or Stoneforge Mystic, and milling into a random Lingering Souls doesn't seem bad either (although I wouldn't minus her until I already have a useful creature to buy back).

Because the deck already has problems with True-Name preboard (compared to Pox who can kill a TNN in 10 different ways) it may not be worth it here, but I like experimenting with cards.
(I've already tried leagues with Horizon Canopy, Urborg etc but decided to cut these, the Karakas is the only land chance that stuck around because it did win me a lot more games than losing me due to being wasteable/nonblack; the others were a pain in the ass more often due to their drawbacks)

Liliana, the Last Hope is great in some matchups but with combo and Mircales controll, Veil is much better. Liliana of the Veil is still okey in most match up in Lergact.


Yeah, guaranteed payout is nice. Turned $30 credit into $200 credit.

Actually got to cast Collective Brutality a few times. I seem to whiff quite a bit on the discard ability. Still gonna keep it though. Very versatile card and a nice Tempo play. Still waiting for the day cast it vs Burn. LOL, kill your Goblin Guide, discard their Lightning Bolt and drain life for 2.
Collective Brutality is also never a dead card in matchups. Either removel agianst cretures or discard against combo. To kill an elf AND take thier Order/GreenSun is great.

[Fjaulnir]

Another Deadguy Ale with 2 Chrome Moxen, but with Thalia maindeck instead of Collective Brutality like the list I played last week:

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2017-07-19

[Jain_Mor]

Awesome. Deadguy on the rise. Casting lingering souls or chrome Mox with a Thalia out sounds painful, and less than 4 bob seems wrong to me, but I guess enough of online meta are spell based that it's worth it.

[Fjaulnir]

That's exactly why I never liked Thalia in Mox - Souls builds, I played some of them on Cockatrice back in the days and Thalia just made everything awkward after you resolved her. I do think I'd want even a few more extra land if playing her.

[Ganfar]

Another Deadguy Ale with 2 Chrome Moxen, but with Thalia maindeck instead of Collective Brutality like the list I played last week:

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2017-07-19

What deck do you need Choke against? The matchup you bring in Chock is grindy matchup and I would rather have a planeswalker. I have played with Choke before and it has not been so impressiv against BUG or UW controll

[Fjaulnir]

It's not my deck so I don't know what he wanted them for :-)


It used to be very good against Miracles, so I guess now it's good against slower blue midrange-control decks like Grixis Control / 4c Czech Pile?

[Jain_Mor]

Like I've said before, I think there is a second great build that's like d&t featuring black, with vial, mom, Thalia, Sculler, bob, revoker, SFM etc

It's encouraging to see different varieties of the deck do well though because it means we can say the archetype is inherently powerful enough, and it can only get stronger as we hone in on a standard list or two.

edit: agreed choke is bad in a meta full of DRS and miracles bringing in disenchants against us

[Thunderknight]

Howdy.

I've been playing Maverick for the past year, and I'm starting to dabble into Junk DeadGuyAle/Junk Deathblade.

I have some questions to help build the variant that I want.

1.) could someone, in detail, discuss the main difference between IoK, Thoughtseize, Duress, Cabal Therapy, Collective Brutaility, and Hymm. I know they all serve the discard role, but I feel that some discard are better in certain match-ups than the other.

2.) Has anyone tried Grim Flayer? I feel like this card wasn't explored enough, and I think in Junk wants this card, for filtering the top cards in the library, and also another threat to have. It can discard cards like Lingering souls to cast them faster...I don't know.

3.) How about Delve cards like Murderous Cut/tasigur/Angler? Even though the deck runs bob, we have ways to gain back the life. There's also the idea of running Death's Shadow to provide more aggression, but again I don't know.

4.) How many Chrome Mox should a deck run?

[Ganfar]

It's not my deck so I don't know what he wanted them for :-)


It used to be very good against Miracles, so I guess now it's good against slower blue midrange-control decks like Grixis Control / 4c Czech Pile?

Choke is only good if you are ahead your oppement when you resolve it. Choke doesn't do anything agansit a already resolved Jace or a Deathrite. Gideon or Kaya helps will help the board pressent better and create value.


Howdy.

I've been playing Maverick for the past year, and I'm starting to dabble into Junk DeadGuyAle/Junk Deathblade.

I have some questions to help build the variant that I want.

1.) could someone, in detail, discuss the main difference between IoK, Thoughtseize, Duress, Cabal Therapy, Collective Brutaility, and Hymm. I know they all serve the discard role, but I feel that some discard are better in certain match-ups than the other.

2.) Has anyone tried Grim Flayer? I feel like this card wasn't explored enough, and I think in Junk wants this card, for filtering the top cards in the library, and also another threat to have. It can discard cards like Lingering souls to cast them faster...I don't know.

3.) How about Delve cards like Murderous Cut/tasigur/Angler? Even though the deck runs bob, we have ways to gain back the life. There's also the idea of running Death's Shadow to provide more aggression, but again I don't know.

4.) How many Chrome Mox should a deck run?

1.) All the DGA list runs at least 3 Thoughtseize but most of the time 4 in main. The best discard spell in magic but in some matchup the lost of life is too big cost(Burn).

IoK is the "fith" thoughtseize if you want more then 5 one mana discard spells in main. The most played cards in Leagcy are under mana cost of 3 so IoK can still have lot of targets.

Duress is more for the sideborad if you really want a one mana discard spell against spellbased combo decks.

Cabal Therapy: I don't like it personlly in this deck but other does. If you really know the Legacy Meta well, you can take two cards with Cabal Therapy. Good with other discard spell to see the hand before play Cabal. I don't like to flashback my cretures with Cabal Therapy.

Collective Brutaility are more a hybrid card then a pure discard spell. This card is very flexiable and is usefully in all matchups. Use it as a removel spell against elves or a discard spell against Show and Tell. Discarding extra lands or Linger Souls for extra value. Also makes one of our worst matchup "Burn" a better matchup.

Hymn: Hymn is very powerful in the early game. Some version of DGA can cast it on turn 1 and win the game from there. I would play it in meta there there are many combo decks and grindy decks like Sharless Bug.

I have to talk about Tidehollow Sculler. A really good card against our worst matchup, combo. Exile the best card in thier hand AND gets a 2/2 beater to have a clock. A disupter and a clock is what you need to win against combo.

2) I have tired Grim Falyer for some tourments and really like it. To get a Grim Flayer trigger and put three lands in the graveyard. However, Grim Flayer don't solve anything issue that DGA has. The best thing with Grim Flayer is to be able to filter the top cards. Grim Flayer don't make any matchup better. The mana cost of GB makes it really hard to the mana base. The biggest issue I had with it I had to rebuild my manabase to able to cast my Tidehollow Scruller, Stoneforge and Bob.

3) DGA don't play any cantrips so we don't fill up the graveyard that fast. It's still hurts alot to get 7 dmg from a bob trigger. We have already Plow so Murderous Cut is not nessary. Better to play Fatal Push instead. Death Shadow has not been test that much in Leagcy but it's worst. LEgacy don't play with shockland to damage youself and Plow is played that gain life.

4) 1 is too few, you never see it in the starthand where you want it. 2 is the best I think, you only want to see one Mox per game. 2 Moxes gives the bigger chance to get it in the start hand and still not many enought you draw more of them.

Hope it helps :)

I am going to Prauge next week for Magic CardMarket Tourment. It's going to be a nice trip!

[Wilkin]

The Grand Prix is in Toronto this weekend and there is a Legacy Showdown Saturday and Sunday.

Saturday went well for me. 75 players. 7 rounds. 4-1-1 in Swiss. Made top 8, lost in quarters to be 8th.

Didn't keep great notes here.... 3 Variants of Delver were my first 3 opponents. Hero of Bladehold won a couple of games. Lingering Souls was also great here.

Faced Jund in round 4. Interesting build, No Dark confidants or Punishing Fires. Had Grim Flayers in it. Won that match too.

Lost to Delver in round 5.

My round 6 opponent was my friend, also on Deadguy. We hated the mirror match so much we decided to Intentional draw so that we both had a win and in, in the final round. My round 7 opponent was on lands. Killed him hard in game 2 (i won in 2). I have a Bob in play and he makes a Marit lage token main phase.....I have a Humility and Karakas in my hand. GG.

Was the 6th seed going in but lost to my quarters opponent.....My friend on Deadguy. Getting my Hero of Bladehold killed be a Shriekmaw does kind of suck. lol.


Lingering Souls and Hero were the MVP's main. A ton of my sideboard cards saw no play like Gaddock Teeg. Going to play in the Sunday Showdown too.

As far as some of the questions posed.....

1. I don't go 4 thoughtseize since the life loss does begin to add up. I love the singleton Therapy. I'm pretty good at naming cards in players hands and has the potential to be a 2 for 1 (perhaps even more although that has been very rare). Plus having a way to kill Dark Confidant at low life is nice.

Hymn to Tourach is awesome but i often take it out in game 2....in order to overload on removal or the draw.

2. Grim Flayer is nice card and all but i like a Stable Manabase and can't really support doing that. At least for me. I still have 1 Decay main and 2 Teeg in the board but that's it.

3. Angler is a very good card but flipping a 7 to Bob sucks. I personally don't have the guts to go that far. 5 is enough for me.

4. I like 2 Chrome Mox. I used to play 3 but I find 2 to be the perfect number. If i have it in opener (the ideal obviously) that means there will only be one more chrome mox and therefore dead card. Hopefully you can have an active Liliana of the Veil to pitch it.

[Hmmm_Really?]

The Grand Prix is in Toronto this weekend and there is a Legacy Showdown Saturday and Sunday.

Saturday went well for me. 75 players. 7 rounds. 4-1-1 in Swiss. Made top 8, lost in quarters to be 8th.

Didn't keep great notes here.... 3 Variants of Delver were my first 3 opponents. Hero of Bladehold won a couple of games. Lingering Souls was also great here.

Faced Jund in round 4. Interesting build, No Dark confidants or Punishing Fires. Had Grim Flayers in it. Won that match too.

Lost to Delver in round 5.

My round 6 opponent was my friend, also on Deadguy. We hated the mirror match so much we decided to Intentional draw so that we both had a win and in, in the final round. My round 7 opponent was on lands. Killed him hard in game 2 (i won in 2). I have a Bob in play and he makes a Marit lage token main phase.....I have a Humility and Karakas in my hand. GG.

Was the 6th seed going in but lost to my quarters opponent.....My friend on Deadguy. Getting my Hero of Bladehold killed be a Shriekmaw does kind of suck. lol.


Lingering Souls and Hero were the MVP's main. A ton of my sideboard cards saw no play like Gaddock Teeg. Going to play in the Sunday Showdown too.

As far as some of the questions posed.....

1. I don't go 4 thoughtseize since the life loss does begin to add up. I love the singleton Therapy. I'm pretty good at naming cards in players hands and has the potential to be a 2 for 1 (perhaps even more although that has been very rare). Plus having a way to kill Dark Confidant at low life is nice.

Hymn to Tourach is awesome but i often take it out in game 2....in order to overload on removal or the draw.

2. Grim Flayer is nice card and all but i like a Stable Manabase and can't really support doing that. At least for me. I still have 1 Decay main and 2 Teeg in the board but that's it.

3. Angler is a very good card but flipping a 7 to Bob sucks. I personally don't have the guts to go that far. 5 is enough for me.

4. I like 2 Chrome Mox. I used to play 3 but I find 2 to be the perfect number. If i have it in opener (the ideal obviously) that means there will only be one more chrome mox and therefore dead card. Hopefully you can have an active Liliana of the Veil to pitch it.


But you didn't mention Bontu's Last Reckoning?!

[Wilkin]

Oh, well I'll mention Bontus's Last Reckoning. In testing it's ok. I did a couple of board wipes and my opponents next turn in those cases didn't slam a threat. Toxic Deluge is better obviously but for me I couldn't run 2 Deluges....too much life loss when combined with Bob, thoughtseize etc.

Top 8 again at the Sunday Legacy Showdown in Toronto. I believe I was the only one to top 8 both days. Go Dead Guy. lol. 57 players. 6 rounds. 5-1 in swiss. Won my quarterfinals match and lost in the semi-finals.

Round 1. Aluren. Won 2-1
Game 1. The lingering Soul beat down happens. I didn't see much aside from Shardless Agent and Baleful Strix. So I assumed he was Shardless Bug. Oop.s
Game 2. He has Aluren out with Cavern Harpies out. He doesn't combo me out.....but he doesn't have to. My removal is blanked and 3 2/1 flying dudes is good enough.
Game 3. He has a Leovold out which is annoying but Lingering Souls plus Jitte prove to be too much.

Round 2. Jund. Lose 2-1
Game 1. I Inquisition him and see A bloodbraid Elf, Goyf and other card (bolt i think). I take the Goyf. He plays a land and passes. I cast therapy on my turn to name Bloodbraid Elf....I hit 2 of them. GG. I win the attrition war.
Game 2. A bit mana screwed is enough for me to lose.
Game 3. Bloodbraid into Goyf. Then another Bloodbraid Elf into Goyf. No Toxic Deluge or Bontu's Last Reckoning to save me from the onslaught.

Round 3. Jund. Win 2-0
Can't remember much here. I faced 3 Jund decks today....it all becomes a blur.

Round 4. Jund. Win 2-1
This version plays Grim Flayer. Lingering Souls again won me the game.

Round 5. Maverick. Win 2-1
Critical point was in game 3, where he has a Scryb Ranger, Mother of Runes, Deathrite Shaman and an unequipped Sword of Fire and Ice. I have 2 Soul tokens out. He attempts to equip the Ranger and I zealous in response, killing mom and ranger. He is able to equip the Shaman and swing but he only has 2 other lands and can't cast too much. I spam Lingering SOul tokens. I had 8 at the end of game 3.

Round 6. Burn. win 2-1
Had to play the last round due to bad breakers and at least 10 players live for top 8. MVP was Sanctum Prelate naming 1...plus him not drawing 2 mana cards that were relevant such as Searing Blaze. Had Prelate in games 2 and 3. Go singletons. lol.

I'm the 4th seed going in. I faced Shardless and beat it in 2. Again Lingering Souls was MVP here. I lost to Delver in the finals. A healthy amount of mana screw and mulling all 3 games (one for opponent, 2 for me).

Souls was MVP by far. Sanctum Prelate was really good naming 1 vs burn.

[Ganfar]

@Wilkin. Your meta seems super fair and it's a perfect place for DGA.

Do you have a update list what you played? I didn't find it in this thread.

[Wilkin]

Maindeck hasn't changed since the last time i posted it.

Sideboard
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Relic of Progentius
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Bontu's Last Reckoning
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Humility
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Collective Brutality

Yeah meta really fair where I am. There are a ton of Lands decks around but I'm favoured vs them. I think for whatever reason most people are going to think we are dead to Lands but I've played a lot vs lands (Hmmm, that's probably why I can't find a Tabernacle lol) and I do very well.

I did have a lot of time scouting and there were combo decks there like Sneak/show, Storm and Belcher but not in big numbers. And not many of them made the top 8. I know a lot of people seemed to think with Miracles mostly gone that they thought the sky would be falling and it would be just combo everywhere but Delver decks are still pretty darn good at beating most combo decks.

[Ganfar]

Maindeck hasn't changed since the last time i posted it.

Sideboard
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Relic of Progentius
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Bontu's Last Reckoning
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Humility
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Collective Brutality

Yeah meta really fair where I am. There are a ton of Lands decks around but I'm favoured vs them. I think for whatever reason most people are going to think we are dead to Lands but I've played a lot vs lands (Hmmm, that's probably why I can't find a Tabernacle lol) and I do very well.

I did have a lot of time scouting and there were combo decks there like Sneak/show, Storm and Belcher but not in big numbers. And not many of them made the top 8. I know a lot of people seemed to think with Miracles mostly gone that they thought the sky would be falling and it would be just combo everywhere but Delver decks are still pretty darn good at beating most combo decks.
Yes, I agree. Delver are much better against combo then Miracles. Delver can get a fast clock and get access to Daze and Force of Will.

Sure, Miracles could close the deal with Counterbalance and Top but they will not win the game, just not lose this turn.

[Notion Thief]

I played deadguy to a rough 2-3 this past weekend(should have had a shot at taking g3 vs elves but tilted myself hard). Beat infect and death and taxes handily, got crushed by two god hands vs BR reanimator, and lost to topless miracles to miss the top 8 cut. Still having a lot of fun playing the deck at the moment.

One matchup Ive found especially tricky though is aggro-loam. That seems borderline unwinnable to me, but maybe im just not playing my lines right. Anyone else find this matchup painful?

[Jain_Mor]

The few times I've played aggro loam I've ignored everything they were doing, saved wastelands for their marit lage and then slowly killed them with lingering souls tokens and equipment. We have basics and moxes, so can't get waste locked. Waste, Shaman and SoFaI (+GY board hate) can stop punishing fire. Chalice is a pain but not that detrimental when you're playing bobs, hymns, brutalities, SFM, souls and lilis

How were you losing? What were you struggling against?

[Wilkin]

I've played vs Aggro Loam a fair bit and for me, it's in my favor. Punishing Fire is annoying but manageable most of the time. Plus I play a ton of GY hate and creature removal. Chalice is hit and miss. Sometimes it's super annoying, other times I don't draw a 1 mana card, or lol I have one but I throw it on Chrome Mox. Plus, I have a Decay, 2 Vindicate and an explosives to deal with it.

When I tried Palace Jailer it was insane, lol. Exile your Knight of the Reliquary and eot draw a card. Any creature he played promptly gets killed since I'm drawing 2 cards a turn now.

[CptHaddock]

I've been pretty 50/50 in my matchups, postboard it gets way better. Most of my games have been like your standard rock vs rock games where you just toss things at each other until something sticks and that person usually wins the game. Imo the best way to attack Aggro Loam is to attack the threat base (Liliana, Bob, Knight, the random silver bullets) and you generally win the match. Palace Jailer seems nuts against that deck.

[Wilkin]

I've been pretty 50/50 in my matchups, postboard it gets way better. Most of my games have been like your standard rock vs rock games where you just toss things at each other until something sticks and that person usually wins the game. Imo the best way to attack Aggro Loam is to attack the threat base (Liliana, Bob, Knight, the random silver bullets) and you generally win the match. Palace Jailer seems nuts against that deck.

Yeah, unfortunately I cut Palace Jailer. Too many True Name Nemesis and flash creatures like Snapcaster for Jailer to be viable IMO.

Still, Dead guy (or at least the pile I play with lol) is good vs Aggro Loam. Game 1 can be a bit rough at times but games 2 and 3 are fine.

[Sleepy_Eyes]

What is the preferred way to share a deck list for review?

I have been playing & tuning for a while and would like some empathetic feedback on my current pile of that's okay by you's guys. :cool:

[Ganfar]

What is the preferred way to share a deck list for review?

I have been playing & tuning for a while and would like some empathetic feedback on my current pile of that's okay by you's guys. :cool:

I think Jeff Hoogland did a good breakdown with this artical:

http://articles.mtgcardmarket.com/breaking-down-deadguy-ale/

[Notion Thief]

Interesting, i wonder why im finding aggro-loam so rough...maybe just variance not swinging my way? Do you guys run leyline of the void/RiP or surgical extraction (or both)?

Ive been running surgicals in the board but am thinking of going back to leyline because its unaffected by chancellor of the annex vs BR reanimator, and is harder to play around with loam/pfire than a deathrite.

[Mr Boltagon]

Quick and dirty tourney report on a ~20 man at my LGS over the weekend. There was a heavy representation of Blade and Delver which is actually pretty unusual for our meta, usually at least a couple DnT players, of which none turned up. Mostly dodged the ape matchups; there was one RB Reanimator, at least two SnS and two Eldrazi. Felt good to face zero equipment decks having just cut Manriki. Nailed it.

List, basically Jain's 75.

Creatures 12
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic

Spells 29
3 Chrome Mox
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
3 Collective Brutality
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Council's Judgment
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Lingering Souls
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

Lands 19
1 Bayou
4 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
2 Scrubland
3 Swamp
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath

Sideboard 15
1 Containment Priest
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Rest in Peace
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Gideon of the Trials
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar

R1 L 1-2 – BUG delver w/ TNN & Leo
Crushed the first game with an unanswered Lili, six spirits closed things out.
Post board games were close and interactive, never resolved a Deluge and needed to draw more Souls.
Feels bad to lose first round, however op was friendly and games were fun.
 

R2 W 2-1 – Grixis Delver w/ Pyro/Therapy
G1, Not much to comment on here, drew and cast multiple Souls, they did their job.
G2, Delver on the play did Delver things. Got nailed with a Daze that I should have played around after Moxing for a two drop (I think an escalated CB), then decided to play into Daze hoping there wasn’t one. There was. Daze, daze, daze, lose.
G3, see G1. ZP got me there a turn faster.

R3 W 2-0 – LED Dredge
He was clearly tired and tilted, only saw one bridge and it was in the post SB game so I had it on lock with surgical, I was also in a position to attack into it and a Jitte online to pick off my SFM.
G1, all I remember is that his dredges gave me enough time to suit up a spirit with SoFaI for max beats.
G2 he had two Firestorms in hand, lead with confluence and passed, snapped off waste on his only land with a surgical in hand.

Felt the lack of a second green source in this match as I assembled double DRS in both games, ultimately didn’t matter however – not sure if the ability to hold up double activation of DRS is even a reason to play a second G source without any actual G spells.
Side note; I’ve never been impressed with this deck, especially with RB in the format. People should just play Burn if they want a linear budget(ish) deck.

R4 W 2-1 – Turbo Depths
G1, quick token was answered by Lili with a NotW dead in hand (had the full 4, not sure this is stock?), wasn’t able to reload.
G2, I was in control most of the game with wasteland and discard, he only just snuck the combo through.
T1 Needle, didn’t crack Flats in response but whatever. T2, Depths, Needle on Waste. Hymned a 2nd Depths into the bin and surgical’d, then had double swords for when he eventually cracked the on board Depths with Stage and Cropped for Sejiri Steppe.

R5 ID – Deathblade variant (not 100% on build)
ID to Deathblade variant, 7th seed on 3-1-1

Qtr Final L 1-2 – Grixis Delver w/ Pyro/Therapy
Lost to a bit of a noob lucker, He was new to Legacy and made some new-to-Legacy plays – end step Brainstorm FTW. I swear I’m not salty. I swear.
G1, again, cast lots of Souls vs Delver and won – I think I see a pattern emerging. Lili did some work, Souls blocked some fish and then carried a SoFaI across the line.
G2 was pretty sweet; he landed a TNN and started pecking away while SFM found and slammed a Batterskull, he made a big fish. I was just behind in the race with a DRS helping out. He ended up taking BS with a Grudge that was Hymned and I was left chumping with spirit, DRS keeping me on life support. I went to 5 end of his turn, knowing I had one draw step, ripped Deluge, put myself to 7 with DRS, cast Deluge for 5. Spell Pierced with one mana up, scoop.
G3 mulled a medium 6 w/ 1 land, had TS forced, never drew a second land, end of tournament.
 
Final thoughts
I definitely made a few misplays, worst of which were mechanical; missed Bob triggers and end step DRS activations. Also, boarded out TS a bit aggressively in the Delver games leaving myself with few one drops – however I still don’t love it in the matchup.
Didn’t play against any tiered spell combo decks, both Dredge and Depths feel like good matchups – wouldn’t leave home with less than 3 Surgicals in the side. This also might lead me to over value Souls as they’re so good in the fair matchups, but I’ll be sticking with four for the time being.
Judgement main felt pretty bad all day, WW is tough. I never got to board them in, but after having done some further thinking on Therapy I don’t think they have a place in the SB. The matchups that you want it, you won’t have any incidental creatures to flashback with. I’ll be sleeving up at least a split with Duress in the future. Still unsure on two vs three Mox, never had an issue with the third copy however my experience is still a very small sample size – but I love me some fast mana gotcha.

Changes to my list;

MB
-1 Council’s Judgement, +1 Vindicate
I still like the idea of having a catchall main, even though it doesn’t tag TNN. I’m not wholly convinced this is correct use of the flex slot. I had toyed with adding IOK, but we’re already so heavy on discard. Might procure a Guile and see how that feels.

-1 Swamp, +1 Savanah
Didn’t value the basics as much as I thought I would. Necessary if I end up with a Guile main.

SB
-2 Cabal Therapy, +1 Duress, +1 Blackmail
Duress is great – as long as it’s the Urza’s Saga printing. Blackmail is a bit of a pet card, I like taking peoples lands. Don’t judge me. Should probably be a Pithing Needle, that’s what I have next for addition to the SB.

-1 Ensnaring Bridge, +1 Damnation
Bridge is terrible, everyone brings in shatters vs SFM. I do however like having another answer to creatures, possible that the third Deluge is just better but multiples against delve threats can get very painful. The split seems fine.

[Jain_Mor]

@Boltagon, thanks for running the list and + report, congrats on going 3-1-1 in swiss

I'm happy that you ended up reverting some of the changes you made back to what I had originally (2 G lands, Duress in the side etc), adds more data/testing to the list. And glad you didn't have problems with 3 moxes. Regarding bob triggers, I always put my bob next to my library whenever he is on the field, so I look at him before I draw and after 4-5 years it becomes second nature I guess.

I agree on Council's but I feel like it's a necessary evil. Maybe TNN can be answered with racing and lilianas and so Vindicate is just better. Love that it can hit lands obviously. It's for a similar reason I hesitate on Gideons, WW is tough.

Regarding bridge, you don't side it in for fair matchups that have shatter and disenchant, but for the unfair creautre decks like eldrazi, reanimator, depths and Show n Tell.

@Thief, I run 2 extracts, 1 RIP and 1 Etutor

@Sleepy, any format is fine, as long as it is cost sorted and presented in some kind of logical fashion. If lands, cmc1 and cmc5 spells are all mixed together, I don't read it. I prefer lists presented on here, than on secondary websites, but thats me.

[Fjaulnir]

Another list similar to what we've been playing did well in a 50-man tourney in England/London this weekend:

https://thelibraryatpendrellvale.com/london-legacy-monthly-july/

[Jain_Mor]

Another list similar to what we've been playing did well in a 50-man tourney in England/London this weekend:

https://thelibraryatpendrellvale.com/london-legacy-monthly-july/

Yea that is our list, well spotted. I wonder if they know about the source. Tournament report please if you see this...

[Whitefaces]

Yea that is our list, well spotted. I wonder if they know about the source. Tournament report please if you see this...

I'll point Niklas in this direction.

[Jain_Mor]

I'll point Niklas in this direction.

Cheers! I guess I'll be even happier if he came to the list independently

[CptHaddock]

Cheers! I guess I'll be even happier if he came to the list independently

Lol that seems a weird thing to say seeing as wilkin has been rocking a similar list for ages (http://tcdecks.net/results.php?nombre=Wilkin%20Chau).

[Fjaulnir]

Lol that seems a weird thing to say seeing as wilkin has been rocking a similar list for ages (http://tcdecks.net/results.php?nombre=Wilkin%20Chau).

Wilkin seems to be more of the spicy additions though? (Hero of Bladehold, Shriekmaw, Cabal Therapy), while the one Jain and me had been working on the last 1-2 months is a bit more straightforward without the typical Wilkin Chau cards.

The list that placed in London seems to be more in line with
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=16268&d=300471

than with f.ex.
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14546&d=287271&f=LE

is what I think he meant.

[Jain_Mor]

Lol that seems a weird thing to say seeing as wilkin has been rocking a similar list for ages (http://tcdecks.net/results.php?nombre=Wilkin%20Chau).

Any example of any deadguy list doing well is good and interesting to us, but we are also interested in the card choices between lists too, right?

I think it's safe to say you can differentiate between Hoogland's, Wilkin's, mine, yours and others' style of list. Given the no nonsense 4 ofs, the brutalities, lack of decays, council's and e tutor sideboard you have to admit it's likely that Niklas read one of my reports or saw Fjaulnir's report/mtgo posting. If that is so, then its great that the list is spreading and doing well for people, and thereby giving more weight to the card choices (in comparison to other builds). If that isn't the case, then he came to those card choices without our influence, and that lends more weight to them imo (convergent evolution etc), hence my comment.

I mean the goal here is to develop the most powerful builds of deadguy for the current metagame that we can all muster, right? To the point were we can nail down 95% of the card slots for each kind of build, in the same way the more populated decks in tier 1 do. That's my aim anywho, I'm here because I think this is the best non-blue midrange deck in the format right now (it wasn't previously imo), and I want to wreck with it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to claim I invented deadguy by myself; but when I decided to drop green from my junk builds, I knew what cards I was interested in playing and that talking to you guys would be the best thing to do (confirming bitterblossom and coptor aren't where we want to be for example), but the lists I saw floating around here weren't consistent enough for me or had other issues (like no DRS), so I made a build I consider leaner.

That's my thoughts anyway. Am I making sense, or am I talking out of my arse? XD Apologies if I came off in a different way though.

[CptHaddock]

Any example of any deadguy list doing well is good and interesting to us, but we are also interested in the card choices between lists too, right?

I think it's safe to say you can differentiate between Hoogland's, Wilkin's, mine, yours and others' style of list. Given the no nonsense 4 ofs, the brutalities, lack of decays, council's and e tutor sideboard you have to admit it's likely that Niklas read one of my reports or saw Fjaulnir's report/mtgo posting. If that is so, then its great that the list is spreading and doing well for people, and thereby giving more weight to the card choices (in comparison to other builds). If that isn't the case, then he came to those card choices without our influence, and that lends more weight to them imo (convergent evolution etc), hence my comment.

I mean the goal here is to develop the most powerful builds of deadguy for the current metagame that we can all muster, right? To the point were we can nail down 95% of the card slots for each kind of build, in the same way the more populated decks in tier 1 do. That's my aim anywho, I'm here because I think this is the best non-blue midrange deck in the format right now (it wasn't previously imo), and I want to wreck with it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to claim I invented deadguy by myself; but when I decided to drop green from my junk builds, I knew what cards I was interested in playing and that talking to you guys would be the best thing to do (confirming bitterblossom and coptor aren't where we want to be for example), but the lists I saw floating around here weren't consistent enough for me or had other issues (like no DRS), so I made a build I consider leaner.

That's my thoughts anyway. Am I making sense, or am I talking out of my arse? XD Apologies if I came off in a different way though.

Fair enough. I guess I misread what you were trying to say, sorry!

For those of you that run prelate in your board, is it a card that you bring in for the delver matchups?

[Mr Boltagon]

@Boltagon, thanks for running the list and + report, congrats on going 3-1-1 in swiss

I'm happy that you ended up reverting some of the changes you made back to what I had originally (2 G lands, Duress in the side etc), adds more data/testing to the list. And glad you didn't have problems with 3 moxes. Regarding bob triggers, I always put my bob next to my library whenever he is on the field, so I look at him before I draw and after 4-5 years it becomes second nature I guess.

I agree on Council's but I feel like it's a necessary evil. Maybe TNN can be answered with racing and lilianas and so Vindicate is just better. Love that it can hit lands obviously. It's for a similar reason I hesitate on Gideons, WW is tough.

Regarding bridge, you don't side it in for fair matchups that have shatter and disenchant, but for the unfair creautre decks like eldrazi, reanimator, depths and Show n Tell.

Honestly my pleasure in running the list – I’m just happy to put my Bobs and Wolf Hymns to work. Also huge fan of Souls and think it is criminally underplayed in Legacy – one of the reasons I think it is great right now.

Assuming we’re locked on the rest of the MB (obviously Fjaulnir has opened up some extra slots w/ 3 Souls, 3 Hymn) and agree that the one flex slot needs to deal with TNN, wouldn’t Deluge be better? We agree that Council’s is clunky and awkward, and I think Deluge is also more impactful vs some of our rougher to 50/50 matchups – Elves, DnT – also a great answer to the Leo decks and Pyro (however painful Deluge for 5 is to murder a fish).

On the SB Gideons, Trials is there just for testing (never cast it), it might be terrible but can at least buy some time and doesn’t hurt to have another way to turn the corner. Ally, is extremely impactful in the matchups he’s brought in, admittedly he was better when Miracles w/ Top was in the format. Post board it’s going to be a little grind-ier, with more opportunity to make land drops to get WW. Again, it’s also nice to have a big beat stick to close with or the option to -4 with Souls on board. Will always run at least one in my SB till proven wrong (I also run 1-2 in my DnT board).

Following that trend, happy to be proven wrong and sorry if Bridge has been discussed in detail earlier in the thread. I understand that it’s for the unfair matchups, even though I was a little cheeky and boarded it vs Delver. Punished. Of course.

To provide comment on each deck you listed;
Eldrazi – sweepers are arguably better even if Damnation is a little slow. I guess they can also…ratchet bomb on three…sure.
Reanimator – they’re snapping of 4 Wear//Tear, 3/4 Decay when boarding against us as they’ll have all the targets, plus fear of RIP/Leyline. And Bridge doesn’t stop them from drawing 14 cards for a shatter.
Depths – Again, their Decays are coming in. Generally a 3 off? I think this matchup is good enough, especially with three Surgicals, which I would advocate strongly.
Show n Tell – I can see an argument here, as they don’t tend to play that many U bounce effects (however they are tutor-able). We’re going to feel pretty bad when revealing Bridge vs Omniscience and then dying to Release the Ants. I have no experience with this matchup, how bad is it?

Is the experience of the players overwhelmingly in favour of Bridge? How much better is it when on the E Tutor plan?

[Sleepy_Eyes]

This list is not geared towards any one meta or particular playgroup because i'll be travelling a bit for the rest of 2017.
She plays well but I'm torn between 2x and 3x L-Souls and decided to run 2x until the MB Gideons have been through their paces (so far, so very good).

List:
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
4x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Chrome Mox
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
1x Batterskull
1x Cabal Therapy
1x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Thoughtseize
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Hymn to Tourach
2x Lingering Souls
2x Vindicate
2x Gideon of the Trials
3x Liliana of the Veil
1x Karakas
1x Windswept Heath
2x Bloodstained Mire
2x Polluted Delta
4x Marsh Flats
2x Plains
3x Swamp
2x Scrubland
3x Wasteland

SB:
1x Cabal Therapy
1x Grafdigger's Cage
4x Surgical Extraction
1x Containment Priest
1x Zealous Persecution
2x Collective Brutality
2x Rest in Peace
2x Toxic Deluge
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar

Hymn is fun and makes my pants tighter but I think the third copy should turn into the third L-Souls while I test lil' Giddy. He has been nothing but pretty solid. He's a lame-looking board staller of modular goodness usually but I've hardly lost if he sticks. That said, I bench him without rhyme or reason in MU's I haven't tested him against much to make sure he's doing work.

Any word on the 3-2 split of Hymn and L-Souls? I feel 2-3 split is probably right but didn't want to muddy the 3CMC slots with Gideon's sweaty muscles taking up temporary residence.

Considering cutting the fourth Extraction for maybe another C-Priest/another value threat (Spirit of Labyrinth, Crusader), another Brutality maybe?

Peace

[Jain_Mor]

@Cpt, cool


Honestly my pleasure in running the list – I’m just happy to put my Bobs and Wolf Hymns to work. Also huge fan of Souls and think it is criminally underplayed in Legacy – one of the reasons I think it is great right now.

Assuming we’re locked on the rest of the MB (obviously Fjaulnir has opened up some extra slots w/ 3 Souls, 3 Hymn) and agree that the one flex slot needs to deal with TNN, wouldn’t Deluge be better? We agree that Council’s is clunky and awkward, and I think Deluge is also more impactful vs some of our rougher to 50/50 matchups – Elves, DnT – also a great answer to the Leo decks and Pyro (however painful Deluge for 5 is to murder a fish).

...

Following that trend, happy to be proven wrong and sorry if Bridge has been discussed in detail earlier in the thread. I understand that it’s for the unfair matchups, even though I was a little cheeky and boarded it vs Delver. Punished. Of course.

To provide comment on each deck you listed;
Eldrazi – sweepers are arguably better even if Damnation is a little slow. I guess they can also…ratchet bomb on three…sure.
Reanimator – they’re snapping of 4 Wear//Tear, 3/4 Decay when boarding against us as they’ll have all the targets, plus fear of RIP/Leyline. And Bridge doesn’t stop them from drawing 14 cards for a shatter.
Depths – Again, their Decays are coming in. Generally a 3 off? I think this matchup is good enough, especially with three Surgicals, which I would advocate strongly.
Show n Tell – I can see an argument here, as they don’t tend to play that many U bounce effects (however they are tutor-able). We’re going to feel pretty bad when revealing Bridge vs Omniscience and then dying to Release the Ants. I have no experience with this matchup, how bad is it?

Is the experience of the players overwhelmingly in favour of Bridge? How much better is it when on the E Tutor plan?

Thanks, and agreed on hymn and souls, that's why I'm playing 4 of each: I consider them integral to my gameplan, and are the main cards that are gaurenteed to recoup the card disadvantage from moxes in the matchups that that matters.

Regarding the council's slot, because we aren't playing decay or counterspells I get quite uncomfortable not having at least one card maindeck that can answer an onboard jace, equipment or a random permanent, that's why it isn't a toxic deluge and judgment/vindicate instead. That said Deluge is so strong right now, that it might be fine to play 1 or 2 maindeck.

Regarding bridge, it is not by any means a sacred cow, I'm not even sold on it completely myself, I was playing it because of etutor, which you arent running. So it's fine not to run it, but I dont think you're giving it as much respect as it deserves. Your points:
Eldrazi, I think its better than a sweeper because it answers their creatures in play as well as the hasty reality smasher they are casting next turn etc.

Reanimator, that's fair, but it's still a card you will bring in for the matchup as opposed to a deluge or a damnation, when you're siding out all those souls and SFMs etc

Depths, again, its better than many cards and its good to make them need their answer, it's not like you're blanking their decays with your bobs, lilis and other hate anyway.

Show n Tell as you've said. I find the non-omiscience versions to be fair to favourable, and the omniscience versions to be unfavourable because of hastey emrakuls, more tutors, sweepers and ants as you said.

@Sleepy, As I've said, I think one of the main points of the deck right now is having a mana base that supports hymn and lingering souls. Is baby gideon better than souls? I'm trying to test him but I never draw the damn card -.-

Also, can someone explain to me sideboard collective brutality? Isn't the main feature of the card that it's a great maindeck because it does multiple things poorly (thereby increasing consistent interaction G1), why would you waste sideboard slots on a weak/slow card? What am I missing?

[Wilkin]

'typical wilkin Chau' cards. Lol, that was amusing to read. I do like seeing the variations in the lists. Shows that different decks can work.

For loam decks I side in, 1 surgical, 1 leyline, 1 relic, 1 deluge, 1 explosives, 1 bontu's last reckoning and a prelate. Haven't actually seen the reckoning but the rest works well vs that deck.

I like bridge for show and tell, reanimator and eldrazi. I also board in the sweepers for eldrazi. Works great in conjunction with each other.

Brutality in board is a catch all I board in vs various matchups. I don't put it in main, it getting dazed must suck. Lol. I like boards with versatile answers, in most matchups I board in a ton of cards.

[Jain_Mor]

What decks do you sideboard brutality against then? Do you not side it in against delver?

[Wilkin]

What decks do you sideboard brutality against then? Do you not side it in against delver?

-Burn. I did leave the dream recently by killing his Goblin Guide, making him discard a bolt and draining for 2. unfortunately, neither card discarded was a Lingering Souls but I was still happy with the outcome.
-Most Combo decks. Like say Storm or Sneak Show. Mostly as a crappy Discard spell.
-Elves. mostly for the Kill creature and hopefully to make them discard Natural Order, Abrupt Decay or Glimpse of Nature.
-I do board it in sometimes vs Delver. But I rarely do it for other than the -2/-2 effect.

[Sleepy_Eyes]

@Jain Mor: the main deck baby Gideons are waaaay less fun than Hymn and L-Souls (all of us here know this is a scientific fact)!

They are on point currently because A.) I want to feel out the texture of the card, both positive & negative. and B.) Gideon is a frat house try-hard with an aversion to risk-taking or fun-having so I'd rather bench him without second guessing myself VS bringing him in for game 2 and end up with the feel-bads about the card because I made all the wrong choices when boarding.

He is a very obtuse card but in a way that makes him hard to mitigate. If he sticks, he WILL rue part of your opponent's plan for a turn or two at minimum with zero thought required. He doesn't hose any one card or hate out any one strategy with cunning but maybe being 3CMC with a list of abilities that are perfectly non-specialized/lame is why I feel like he works at all (at least in Legacy).

I don't have my notes with me but he has definitely tilted burn way in our favor. They smash our equips and feel proud, if we disrupt their hand & take their bolts.. slam this guy and insta-emblem they usually can't gain tempo back without some serious luck.

So far his +1 has been a blast... going from being cast as a 4/4 beater one turn to reading your opponent's Big Value Creature of Win for your first time ever to then endlessly prevent it's damage while we are Hyming and sniping lands. That's an easy thing to agree with in theory!

I'm not 100% sure if I'll keep him as an all-time pick but we acquired a very unique card. Most decks have to plan out ways to stall if needed while ours can cast him, beat down, hose their gameplan until answered all while potentially never seeing their deck before.
LotV and this guy on the field together are two peas in a pod.

I can't compare it to anything right now because he's just a very dumb, surprisingly annoying card that has had more effect in my games than its rules are simple.

[Ganfar]

@Jain Mor: the main deck baby Gideons are waaaay less fun than Hymn and L-Souls (all of us here know this is a scientific fact)!

They are on point currently because A.) I want to feel out the texture of the card, both positive & negative. and B.) Gideon is a frat house try-hard with an aversion to risk-taking or fun-having so I'd rather bench him without second guessing myself VS bringing him in for game 2 and end up with the feel-bads about the card because I made all the wrong choices when boarding.

He is a very obtuse card but in a way that makes him hard to mitigate. If he sticks, he WILL rue part of your opponent's plan for a turn or two at minimum with zero thought required. He doesn't hose any one card or hate out any one strategy with cunning but maybe being 3CMC with a list of abilities that are perfectly non-specialized/lame is why I feel like he works at all (at least in Legacy).

I don't have my notes with me but he has definitely tilted burn way in our favor. They smash our equips and feel proud, if we disrupt their hand & take their bolts.. slam this guy and insta-emblem they usually can't gain tempo back without some serious luck.

So far his +1 has been a blast... going from being cast as a 4/4 beater one turn to reading your opponent's Big Value Creature of Win for your first time ever to then endlessly prevent it's damage while we are Hyming and sniping lands. That's an easy thing to agree with in theory!

I'm not 100% sure if I'll keep him as an all-time pick but we acquired a very unique card. Most decks have to plan out ways to stall if needed while ours can cast him, beat down, hose their gameplan until answered all while potentially never seeing their deck before.
LotV and this guy on the field together are two peas in a pod.

I can't compare it to anything right now because he's just a very dumb, surprisingly annoying card that has had more effect in my games than its rules are simple.

What I think makes him good is that he can be a autowin against Strom on game 1 and he can be okey card against delver decks.

I played in MKM Prague this weekend and played with this list:


EDIT: Added the missing cards
// Deadguy Ale

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tidehollow Sculler

4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Bayou
4 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
3 Scrubland
4 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Windswept Heath

1 Gideon of the Trails
3 Liliana of the Veil

2 Toxic Deluge
2 Lingering Souls
2 Collective Brutality
4 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek


// 15 Sideboard

SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
SB: 1 Kaya, Ghost Assassin
SB: 1 Council's Judgment
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage

Match 1 Lands 1-2

Gah Lands!

Game 1
He keeps his 7 and I mull to 5 with 4 lands and a Gideon. Scry a land to the bottom

He gets a 20/20 turn 3.

Sideborad:
-2 Toxic Deluge
-1 Gideon
-1 Swords to Plowers
-2 Collective Brutality

+2 RiP
+1 Needle
+ 3 Surgical

Game 2
My two first turns was discard hsi Explolareation and Gamble.

He don't get any action, only lands in hand (huhu).

I get two Dark Confidant out with beatdown. I have to pay 1 mana per turn to keep them alive.

He gamble for a card and discard Molten Vortex. He scoops

Game 3
I keep a 6 with lands, discard and plow. He gets his 20/20 on turn 3 and I plow it. He return his 3 lands. I draw my RiP that is one turn too late

0-1

Match 2 Lands 0-2

Lands... again

Game 1
Mull to 5

He gets a turn 1 Molten Vortex and I have only one response to it in my deck. I consacde on turn 5 becasue there were no way I could win that game.

Sideborad:
-2 Toxic Deluge
-1 Gideon
-1 Swords to Plowers
-2 Collective Brutality

+2 RiP
+1 Needle
+ 3 Surgical

Game 2
I mullgan to okay 6 but lands are too good.

0-2

Match 3 Sneak and Show 2-1
I think this matchup is okey for our deck

Game 1
I keep a slow hand 6 with Brutaility, Gideon and Jitte. He counter my discard and gets a Omni out

Sideborad:
-2 Lingering Souls
-1 Gideon of the Trails
-2 Toxic Deludge
-1 Stoneforge
-1 Jitte

SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 1 Council's Judgment
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction

Game 2

I keep a hand with IoK, Ethersworn, Bob and Needle.

Starts of with IoK to discard his Show and Tell. Then the second turn play Ethersworn and thrid turn bob to Needle. He had only cantrips and didn't find what he needed

Game 3
He keeps his 7. I play a Thoughtseize turn 1. He has lands, Show and tell, Emmkrul and Griselbrand. I get his SaT.

He play his Tomb and pass the turn.

The only think the could kill em was a Sneak attack with Lotus so I played my Deathrite and wated his tomb

He goes land go and I play out my Thalia. The next turn my Bob comes out.

I get the beatdown and pass the turn. I use Deathrite to loss life and he want to response with Cunning Wish. However, Thalia makes everything cost extra and he can't play Kozileks Return

1-2

Match 4 UR Prowess 2-1

Another swede that I didn't know was in the event a nice guy.

Game 1
He is on the play and plays a Tarn to Ponder. This makes me think he is Show and Tell. This makes me fetch to duals.

I Thoughtseize and he daze it. This makes me still thin he is on combo (Show and Tell don't play Daze?)

I think I win this game after get a Jitte out and take over the game

Sideborad:
- 4 Bob

SB: 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 1 Kaya, Ghost Assassin
SB: 1 Council's Judgment

Game 2

I keep a hand with SoFaI and later draw Batterskull and Stoneforge.

He gets Delver and TNN. No removel and I lose.

Game 3
It become a tight game. I have response to his flip Delver. I don't get anything to response to his Strom Mage and goes down to 7 life.

I get a linger souls the goes to chumpblock duty. I have a token left I draw Stoneforge with 6 mana in play. I play it and get a Jitte. My opponent signs so I know he has no response. I play out my Jitte and equip. I get a hit and after that I take over the game.

2-2

Match 5 Maverick 0-2

This should be a good matchup if I am not get wastelanded out

Game 1
I keep a hand with Scrubland, Karakas, Horizon Canpy, Thoughtseize, Bob and Brutality

I am the play and Srucland, Thoughtseize. I see Aether Vail, Brids, Knight, Wasteland, 2 lands.

I take Aether Vial and hope he play his Birds instead of wasteland me.

He wasteland me and I didn't draw any land in 4 turns.

Sideborad:
- 2 Collective Brutality
+ 1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
+ 1 Kaya, Ghost Assassin

Game 2
I keep land with 1 Srucbland, fetch, Bob and Stoneforge.

No play turn 1 for me
He gets outs a Brids.

I get a Bob out.

He gets a Pridemage and Plow my Bob.

I had to fetch for a second scrubd and think he can't double waste land me. I get my Stoneforge and get a Jitte.

He gets a wasteland and wasteland me. Gets a Railer and wasteland me again.

I didn't draw a land in 4 turns and I tiled. He really had the nut draw

2-3 Drop

Summery:
I felt a bit unlucky when I have to meet 2 lands in my two first games. There were only 9 lands of 288 people.
I don't know if I want 2 Toxic Deludge. Maybe one more Judgement instead?
Colltive is nice but after played casual with my friend with Jund, I missed Hymn.

I was lucky against the Show and Tell at least.

Otherwise the deck felt alright. I need to play with this version more.

Hopefully I will not meet Lands in the first two round in the next tourment

[Jain_Mor]

Unlucky on your run, Ganfar (I once played and lost to burn 3 times in a row at GP Kobe, was not happy (with a different deck)). Yea I think I would play hymns before brutality, and I would play brutalities before sculler, but that's me. Also your list is missing cards.

@Wilkin, I guess I see that most of the format falls into the "playing X/2s" or "playing instants and sorceries we want to take" camps so it serves better being available G1, 2 & 3 as opposed to just 2 & 3. I get flexible sideboard cards, but I still want my sideboard cards to be game-changers, which brutality isn't (except against burn.. but that's just burn).

I guess we just chalk it up to different play styles?

[Mr Boltagon]

Regarding the council's slot, because we aren't playing decay or counterspells I get quite uncomfortable not having at least one card maindeck that can answer an onboard jace, equipment or a random permanent, that's why it isn't a toxic deluge and judgment/vindicate instead. That said Deluge is so strong right now, that it might be fine to play 1 or 2 maindeck.

Regarding bridge, it is not by any means a sacred cow, I'm not even sold on it completely myself, I was playing it because of etutor, which you arent running. So it's fine not to run it, but I dont think you're giving it as much respect as it deserves. Your points:
Eldrazi, I think its better than a sweeper because it answers their creatures in play as well as the hasty reality smasher they are casting next turn etc.

Reanimator, that's fair, but it's still a card you will bring in for the matchup as opposed to a deluge or a damnation, when you're siding out all those souls and SFMs etc

Depths, again, its better than many cards and its good to make them need their answer, it's not like you're blanking their decays with your bobs, lilis and other hate anyway.

Show n Tell as you've said. I find the non-omiscience versions to be fair to favourable, and the omniscience versions to be unfavourable because of hastey emrakuls, more tutors, sweepers and ants as you said.

That's a fair assessment, being able to just murder a Jace is a really nice upside in favour of Judgment/Vindicate.

Again, all fair points. I think maybe another way to look at it is -1 Bridge, +1 Surgical - if that makes sense.
I definitely want another sweeper, because that's all you want to draw in the matchups that you bring them in. However I think Bridge is a less impactful SB card overall and I would advocate the extra Surgical over any of my other changes.

How much of the SFM package do you board vs Reanimator? Our SB cards are crushing but we still need a way to turn the corner - given enough time they can draw out of it.

[Ganfar]

Unlucky on your run, Ganfar (I once played and lost to burn 3 times in a row at GP Kobe, was not happy (with a different deck)). Yea I think I would play hymns before brutality, and I would play brutalities before sculler, but that's me. Also your list is missing cards.


I think people underrade sculler. A discard spell AND 2/2 for two is really good against combo decks. The issue when you meet combo is either you don't have discruption OR get the presure. Tidehollow does it both.

But I think I will slide in two Hymn next time I play the deck.

[Mr Boltagon]

I think people underrade sculler. A discard spell AND 2/2 for two is really good against combo decks. The issue when you meet combo is either you don't have discruption OR get the presure. Tidehollow does it both.

But I think I will slide in two Hymn next time I play the deck.

This is probably true, however Hymn is a more powerful card over all, it;
Is a 2-for-1 therefore plays into our attrition plan;
Supplements our Wastes for more powerful mana denial;
Can be imprinted if you're playing 2-3 Mox and helps make up for the card disadvantage/tempo loss;
Is better against resource intensive combo decks (however obviously worse vs SnS, arguably the best combo deck in the format);
Better with Surgical.

[Mr. Safety]

I think people underrade sculler. A discard spell AND 2/2 for two is really good against combo decks. The issue when you meet combo is either you don't have discruption OR get the presure. Tidehollow does it both.

But I think I will slide in two Hymn next time I play the deck.

+1

Sculler also exiles, which is super relevant in Legacy. Storm, Lands, and Reanimator variants all want access to their graveyard. Against Storm, it can slow down the Past in Flames plan. Against reanimator you don't have to take their reanimator effect (like with Thoughtseize), you can just take the Griselbrand/fatty. Taking a lands player off of Loam can sometimes buy you multiple turns. FYI, big Sculler fan lol.

[Notion Thief]

I tried moving council's to the board and immediately missed having it. There have been a number of game 1s ive had to scoop because i knew i didn't have that catch all answer. Its so good vs planeswalkers, mother of runes, True Name, equipment, and a slew of other cards that are huge problems when they hit the table. I definitely will be re-mainboarding 1-2 of them.

As for Gideon of the Trials, i consider him nearly untouchable in the main after a few weeks of testing. That card does so much heavy lifting for me. Its a maze of ith that can swing for 4 (or more if you voltron him up) buy you extra turns or win outright vs combo, stops sword of fire and ice from wrecking your board, and makes repeating damage sources like chandra and ajani vengeant less imposing just to name a few. I think its one of the best swiss army knives in the deck.

Some of that may just be my play style, since i like to run CJ, Gideon, and Collective Brutality main i guess i like having a plan for everything game one.

[Mr Boltagon]

I tried moving council's to the board and immediately missed having it. There have been a number of game 1s ive had to scoop because i knew i didn't have that catch all answer. Its so good vs planeswalkers, mother of runes, True Name, equipment, and a slew of other cards that are huge problems when they hit the table. I definitely will be re-mainboarding 1-2 of them.

As for Gideon of the Trials, i consider him nearly untouchable in the main after a few weeks of testing. That card does so much heavy lifting for me. Its a maze of ith that can swing for 4 (or more if you voltron him up) buy you extra turns or win outright vs combo, stops sword of fire and ice from wrecking your board, and makes repeating damage sources like chandra and ajani vengeant less imposing just to name a few. I think its one of the best swiss army knives in the deck.

I find WW extremely difficult to maintain vs Delver, this makes me very hesitant to run 2-3 WW spells main. Do you play in a Delver heavy meta?

[Hamhams]

Hello all. I have a bigger version of Dead Guy that runs Rhino and Kaya instead of souls and brutality. I went 4-0 at my shop last night against manaless dredge, grixis delver, aluren, and eldrazi. Kaya was the MVP by making a huge impact every time she hit the board. Even got her and Lili at the same time, felt good. I'm not the biggest fan of my sideboard but I posted it anyway.

Land (20)
4x Marsh Flats
2x Plains
1x Savannah
3x Scrubland
3x Swamp
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Wasteland
4x Windswept Heath

Artifact (3)
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte

Creature (19)
4x Dark Confidant
4x Deathrite Shaman
2x Siege Rhino
4x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Tidehollow Sculler

Sorcery (9)
2x Council's Judgment
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Thoughtseize
1x Toxic Deluge

Instant (4)
4x Swords to Plowshares

Planeswalker (5)
1x Gideon of the Trials
1x Kaya, Ghost Assassin
3x Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard (15)
1x Ashen Rider
2x Containment Priest
2x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Faerie Macabre
2x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Spirit of the Labyrinth
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
2x Zealous Persecution

[Zauzich]

Heading to a small local unsanctioned event with Deadguy. I'll be trying out some recently discussed things.

list:

19 Land
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Bayou
3 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire

12 Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic


29 Spells
2 Chrome Mox

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

3 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kosilek
4 Hymn to Tourach

2 Collective Brutality
3 Liliana of the Veil

4 Lingering Souls
1 Bitterblossom

4 Swords to Plowshears
1 Vindicate

Sideboard
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Zealous Persicution
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Pithing Needle
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Rest in Peace
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Crucible of Worlds

Comments:
I've been a big fan of Tidehollow Sculler so the recent discussion of Collective Brutality in that slot has me intrigued. I'm trying the swap to see if I can glean anything.

I added Chome Mox, which I never really played, as recent results seem to speak strongly for it. The swap from Sculler to Brutality helped alleviate some apprehension on that well. Cut to 21 mana sources from 22.

That's what's new for me. The rest should be within range of stock but I'm happy to comment on any specific choices. Wish me luck and for a good turnout. I'll do my best with notes/report. =]

[Wilkin]

Jain_mor: Yeah I can understand wanting the sideboard cards to be bombs rather than just utility. I feel a decent chunk of my sideboard does that. And I feel Brutality in the board helps plenty of matchups from Storm to a deck like Burn.

CptHaddock: I only really board in Sanctum Prelate vs UR Delver (out of the Delver variants). I feel this version has the most 1 drop non-creature spells out of the lot. I've won a couple of games vs UR delver. Naming 1.


Sidenote: So my backup deck right now is black white Bomberman. And I recently watched a SCG match which was Trios that covered Bomberman vs Death and Taxes. Matthias Hunt and Ryan Overturf joked that Bomberman might be mistake for a weird Deadguy Ale deck. Those were the same guys that called my deck Abzan Stoneblade at SCG Worcester. So they did know what the actual deck name was...or i guess figured it out later on.

[Notion Thief]

I find WW extremely difficult to maintain vs Delver, this makes me very hesitant to run 2-3 WW spells main. Do you play in a Delver heavy meta?

My meta is very delver-light. I dont run hymn so lili is my only BB card, so i often play a swamp and plains for my first two land drops so i can fetch for a scrub and play whatever i want even through wasteland. Deathrite helps too. I havent found WW that bad, probably because indont run a lot of BB

[Notion Thief]

Land (20)
4x Marsh Flats
2x Plains
1x Savannah
3x Scrubland
3x Swamp
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Wasteland
4x Windswept Heath

Artifact (3)
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte

Creature (19)
4x Dark Confidant
4x Deathrite Shaman
2x Siege Rhino
4x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Tidehollow Sculler

Sorcery (9)
2x Council's Judgment
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Thoughtseize
1x Toxic Deluge

Instant (4)
4x Swords to Plowshares

Planeswalker (5)
1x Gideon of the Trials
1x Kaya, Ghost Assassin
3x Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard (15)
1x Ashen Rider
2x Containment Priest
2x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Faerie Macabre
2x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Spirit of the Labyrinth
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
2x Zealous Persecution

I used to run a pretty similar main board. Any reason for no Bayou or just cost effectiveness? Kaya is a beast if they cant kill her in one shot, and plays really nice with rhino . Ive found thalia and walkers awkward at times due to mana constraints, but she definitely is great mainboard vs storm.

Hard to comment on the board without knowing the meta, but 2 priest, 2 canonist, 2 zealous is where most of mine start. I favor surgical over macabre personally but it deepends what flavor of graveyard deck you run into most often. How is SoFaF working for you? I tend to prefer light and shadow in my board, as equipment is usually a bit slow against decks where the discard of feast and famine matters.

[Hamhams]

I used to run a pretty similar main board. Any reason for no Bayou or just cost effectiveness? Kaya is a beast if they cant kill her in one shot, and plays really nice with rhino . Ive found thalia and walkers awkward at times due to mana constraints, but she definitely is great mainboard vs storm.

Hard to comment on the board without knowing the meta, but 2 priest, 2 canonist, 2 zealous is where most of mine start. I favor surgical over macabre personally but it deepends what flavor of graveyard deck you run into most often. How is SoFaF working for you? I tend to prefer light and shadow in my board, as equipment is usually a bit slow against decks where the discard of feast and famine matters.

Thalia can be awkward and I have had to not play her right away to cast my other spells, but there are some storm players so it is hard to take her out as a 1 of. As for the Bayou, it is mostly because of cost but im not sure if Bayou would increase my win % that much anyway.

I do like me some Feast & Famine since there is a strong elf and bug presence in my LGS. The reanimators here also have a lot of angels so I find the macabres are better there since it doesn't cost any mana to cast so I can do it on turn 0 even with the trigger.

[Notion Thief]

Thalia can be awkward and I have had to not play her right away to cast my other spells, but there are some storm players so it is hard to take her out as a 1 of. As for the Bayou, it is mostly because of cost but im not sure if Bayou would increase my win % that much anyway.

I do like me some Feast & Famine since there is a strong elf and bug presence in my LGS. The reanimators here also have a lot of angels so I find the macabres are better there since it doesn't cost any mana to cast so I can do it on turn 0 even with the trigger.

Yeah bayou seems slightly more effective with Deathrite but it's probably not gonna be an earth shattering difference most of the time.

Chancellor is a good reason to run macabre (or leyline but macabre is removal proof as well which is nice) . I like my surgicals because aggro loam and show and tell can be tough without them, but the more i think about it now the more i think i might want 1 or 2 macabre in my board

[Ganfar]

+1

Sculler also exiles, which is super relevant in Legacy. Storm, Lands, and Reanimator variants all want access to their graveyard. Against Storm, it can slow down the Past in Flames plan. Against reanimator you don't have to take their reanimator effect (like with Thoughtseize), you can just take the Griselbrand/fatty. Taking a lands player off of Loam can sometimes buy you multiple turns. FYI, big Sculler fan lol.

I think both Hymn and Scruller are good discard cards in diffrent way. I would like have both in the deck but probablly more Tidehollow then Hymn


Thalia can be awkward and I have had to not play her right away to cast my other spells, but there are some storm players so it is hard to take her out as a 1 of. As for the Bayou, it is mostly because of cost but im not sure if Bayou would increase my win % that much anyway.

I do like me some Feast & Famine since there is a strong elf and bug presence in my LGS. The reanimators here also have a lot of angels so I find the macabres are better there since it doesn't cost any mana to cast so I can do it on turn 0 even with the trigger.
Thalia is best against the combo deck with lot of cantrips like Strom and Sneak and Show. There Thalia hurt them more then you do.

I have tested Feast & Famine a bit but I like Fire and Ice better against the Jace decks. They can't bounce a equip Fire and Ice and force them to dig to find answers.

[Hamhams]

I have tested Feast & Famine a bit but I like Fire and Ice better against the Jace decks. They can't bounce a equip Fire and Ice and force them to dig to find answers.

Yeah, I have fire and ice in my main and feast in the sideboard.

[Mr Boltagon]

My meta is very delver-light. I dont run hymn so lili is my only BB card, so i often play a swamp and plains for my first two land drops so i can fetch for a scrub and play whatever i want even through wasteland. Deathrite helps too. I havent found WW that bad, probably because indont run a lot of BB

Ah, makes sense, WW seems fine without Hymn. What is your split on Fetchs?

[Notion Thief]

Ah, makes sense, WW seems fine without Hymn. What is your split on Fetchs?

4 marsh flats, 2 windswept heath, 2 verdant catacombs if i remember correctly.

[CptHaddock]

4 marsh flats, 2 windswept heath, 2 verdant catacombs if i remember correctly.

No hymn seems like a weird choice. I've found that besides the obvious combo matchups it can give you the edge you need to win against midrange/control. What does your list look like?

[Notion Thief]

No hymn seems like a weird choice. I've found that besides the obvious combo matchups it can give you the edge you need to win against midrange/control. What does your list look like?

From memory, i think my current list is:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Serra Avenger

2 Collective Brutality
4 Thoughseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Council's Judgment
2 Lingering Souls

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawas Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

2 Gideon of the Trials
2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland
3 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Karakas
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Forest

SB
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Leyline of the Void
1 Humility
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Containment Priest
1 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Phyrexian Revoker

It's still a work in progress, but I've had decent results so far

[Zauzich]

We had 7 Players and played Round Robin 6 rounds.

Deadguy Ale
Burn
UW Blade
4c Blade
Elves
RUG Delver
Lands

I liked both Collective Brutality and Crome Mox first time out and will continue with 2 of each.

Round 1, Burn
Win 2-1
L 1: Both boards kept clear until SoFaI on spirit starts race vs. their topdeck. I'm at 7,4,1 and they brick a few times. Spirit hits them down to 4 and the trigger draws Jitte which I tap swamp, Karakas, and two wastelands to cast and equip post combat in a total punt that I realize as it's happening. Topdeck Price of Progress duly punished.
W 2: Early Batterskull goes unanswered a few turns and I'm out of reach. Faerie Rogues finish him.
W 3: Collective Brutality early into equipment wins.

Round 2, UW Blade
Loss 0-2
L 1: Long grinding joy of a game. I can't turn corner as EE takes out my Jitte.
L 2: I mull 6 spells+Mox and then 5 Spells+Wasteland. My 5 card hand is never in it, overwhelmed by Jace, Skull Etc.

Round 3, 4c Blade
Win 2-1
W 1: We waste each other low. IoK takes Tnn he can't deploy. Jitte closes before he can rebuild.
L 2: Opponent mulls to 5 and plays T1 DRS. I chose T1 Thoughtseize over Deathrite fearing turn 2 TNN but it was on top with the scry. I hold Liliana waiting to find spot removal for elf or a sweeper but they never show up* and 2nd TNN joins to finish me.
W 3: Discards cripples him into Lilliana and he can't fend off Batterkull for long.
*After the match I realized I played games 2 & 3 with 53 cards, having sided cards out but nothing in. Judge said leave it and opponent was agreeable.

Round 4, Elves
Loss 1-2 (notes and memory sketchy)
L 1: Turn three on the draw after Hymning I have choice to Wasteland his cradle, play Liliana that would die to elf beats, or cast Lingering Souls. I go with souls planning to waste and play Liliana with blockers next turn. He goes for glimpse and finds 2nd cradle into eventual Hoof.
W 2: Kept a 6 with Plains, Mox, Jitte, Lilliana, Brutality, and Souls. Scry reveals Thoughtseize. So many lines off this open but I went with scry TS to bottom, imprint Liliana on Mox cast Jitte. I would then be able to escalate brutality with souls on 2 to kill his first guy and discard with flashback on souls to get Jitte going t3. I hit the land T2 and he hadn't played a guy so I decided to just front-side the souls. A few turns late I've gotten a hit in with Jitte and he's found his rec Sage. I keep him contained and pressured enough that he has to try off on long odds and doesn't get there. Souls swing in for lethal.
L 3: 2 plows is not enough disruption and I can't close before I die to a very ho-hum Cradle into Cradle hardcast hoof.

Round 5, Rug Delver
Win 2-0
W 1: I was down to the skin of my teeth, 1 life, until Collective Brutality drain up to 3 let me cast Bitterblossom. Two turns later I'm at one again and a blossom token is swinging in for counters.
W 2: We both developed large boards but Batterskull was trump equipped first to SFM vs 5/6 goyf and then on a flyer to win. Earlier discard hit would have been lethal bolts while he was stuck off red.

Round 6, Lands
Loss 0-2
L 1: He's got a good open with explore and loam, finds a waste to waste my waste and 20/20 token kills me.
L 2: This was quite epic with opponent winning with 6 cards left in deck. Molten Vortex and P Fire keep my board clear until I find an opening to equip a spirit with SoFaI. He soon finds Maze of Ith and starts going for Leige but I've built up to three plows in hand by now and topdeck Karakas in time to answer 4th. We spend some turns fighting over Ith (wastes/vindicate) and he's been burning down Lilianas and creatures the whole time . He's running out of deck to dredge when I finally draw a sideboard Surgical but squander it removing Dark Depths when my Karakas and Wasteland probably had it covered. Vortex starts pointing at me. I find E Tutor into needle to shut it off but PFire chips me to zero in time.

End 3-3
The group's plan is to play twice per month.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

So against Burn in game one, I don't understand the mistake you are saying you made...

[Notion Thief]

So against Burn in game one, I don't understand the mistake you are saying you made...

If he kept two wastes up and just played tye jitte without equipping, he could have saved himself from price of Progress, although this seems like a 20/20 hindsight sorta thing since if his opponent topdecked any other burn spell and he hadnt gained 4 off the jitte he'd be dead. Mostly just a guessing game that he guessed wrong as far as i can tell.

[Ganfar]

If he kept two wastes up and just played tye jitte without equipping, he could have saved himself from price of Progress, although this seems like a 20/20 hindsight sorta thing since if his opponent topdecked any other burn spell and he hadnt gained 4 off the jitte he'd be dead. Mostly just a guessing game that he guessed wrong as far as i can tell.

From what I understood is that he was on 1 and any burn spell could kill him. Sure he could wastelanded down to 1 Swamp and hope to draw a land from the top. He seems screwed anyways.

[pettdan]

By not tapping out he would have played around a topdecked Price of Progress, right? And tapping out to equip post-combat didn't improve his odds in any way.
Now if he had other lands available he could have tapped those instead of the Wastelands, but that's too obvious and probably not the case.

[Zauzich]

I had just the 4 lands in play and hit the opponent down to 6 that turn in combat, plus the SoFaI trigger knocks them down to 4 and draws the Jitte, so no chance to get counters that turn. A Collective Brutality had actually gotten me back up to 3 in the meantime so Guide/Swiftspeer were not good enough either.
If I live to next turn spirit + sword + trigger kills them anyway. The Jitte still never gets counters that matter.

The thing that made it so bad was Price of Progress was already on my radar. Opponent had fireblasted a germ early so was on just one land for a lot of the topdecking. When they played a second land I realized price was now live and I should keep the self-wasteland play available.

I just got too exited for the Jitte. I knew they were dead anyway but some sort of showoff/overkill instinct crossed with "look what I drew now that it's too late to help" emotion came over me and I had tapped my lands and announced "cast equip jitte" before I knew what was going on. The card was on the table and sliding it over toward the spirit when my brain caught up and I even said out loud right then "shit. too late. That was a mistake. Now Price of Progress is an out."

This was at a house, pizza and beer type setting. There were spectators. People cheered/"oh my gosh"ed. Good times.

[Sleepy_Eyes]

I managed to play a lot with my brother and our buddy over the weekend and I really cannot figure out how I want my pile to work.

-Part of me really wants to maybe run 2x Bitterblossom in the 75 somewhere. I haven't really had many Goyfs across from me in a while + I have a soft spot for the thing. Maybe 1x main deck with 1x sideboard? We know she can grind it out but could it worth an L-Souls slot as a 2-1 split with Souls and Blossom for generating some flying threats and the virtual card advantage?

-Two mox or not two mox? I played a lot this weekend sans our Chrome (plus a land and another Inquisition or a Fatal Push) and I felt naked knowing those explosive starts weren't even a possibility. I'd like some feedback here because I've also considered playing 3x but haven't made that jump yet. Any thoughts about 0x and/or 3x Chrome a in particular?

-How many Planeswalkers are you comfortable running in your mainboard? While LotV is our bae, we have some solid options available to us. Gideon Trials, Liliana Last Hope and Kaya are solid main deck options various reasons. Any of you have particular spice in main deck Walkers for your particular metagame?

-Are there any creatures you like playing with in addition to our core (DRS, Bob, SFM)? Sometimes I find myself missing some type of fancy breaker which is why I support the 1x Bladehold idea (plus I'm a token addict). Obviously Sculler is a friend of ours so, excluding the ferryman, are Spirit of the Labyrinths or Mirran Crusaders and the like where my head should be if I want to experiment with some scrappy creatures?

-Last but not least... any feelings about Smuggler's Copter in our deck? It is one of the cards that has been floating in and out of my lists since it released. I tend to like it when I can pilot with a token or SFM. If GY hate has been played, hopping into the Copter is one of the better things for a bored DRS to be doing. Witch doctors and helicopters... that's f*cking metal.

Sorry for the questions. Don't really have anyone around me that understands the nuance of our deck (let alone even know what Deadguy is) so I really appreciate the feedback.

[Notion Thief]

your questions and stuff

k.

Hey, ill add my 2 cents worth (note i dont play a stock list for deadguy)

I run a bitterblossom in the board, and 2-3 souls main. It generates threats slower but more consistently than souls so i think its great to bring in in control/prison matchups but it takes a turn to get you any value so its a bit slow for general matchups for my tastes. I think it goes in the 75 for sure, but if you dont face a lot of lands/miracles decks its best served as a sideboard card.

I run zero mox, as my general deck philosophy is to go one-for-one until we're in topdeck mode and 2 for 1-ing myself turn 1 doesnt keep with that plan. If you run hymn i think mox becomes a lot more appealing though, my list is kinda non-traditional. 3 feels like too many to me though, its a bad late game topdeck and you dont want 2 in your opener.

I run 2 Lili, 2 Gideon, and occasionally sideboard Kaya depending on what i might be facing. Shes quite good once she gets rolling, but my curve runs a bit high so i avoid the 4 drop. New Lili seems great if you play against a lot of fair decks, and id consider a 2-1-1 split replacing a gideon if my meta shifted to more dnt-type decks.

My weird creature choice is Serra Avenger (,2-of). Vigilance plus jitte is amazing, it gives evasion and good p/t without being a bob headache, and the first few turns i usually spend setting up the board with discard, removal, and bob/sfm anyway so the 4 turn thing has rarely been an issue. With Sculler, Mother of runes is also great for keeping their card away and it helps get damage through. Gideon also acts as a great beater mid-to-late game.

Ive played around with copter. Its occasionally great. If you have space for a one-of, have some fun with it. Id only run 2 equipment main if youre running it though, it essentually functions as equipment, so its a potentially dead topdeck if you have an empty board. Still it won me some games (it can stonewall a thalia with mother of runes backup which is huge vs dnt). I dont like it for my particular build but i think it's viable in small numbers.

[Sleepy_Eyes]

@Notion Thief - I more or less have a big collection of white/black stuff and am always changing my list. Luckily, my two play groups are solid and we try to explore when we can so I don't have to alllllways show up with a pile of 1CMC good-stuff w/ Delvers. So thanks for the empathetic reply! kek

I feel the BB/L-Soulz comment. It's slower, yes, but it's constant. Your "bit slow" caveat can be instantly felt in the games where it feels bad. Also, cards that kill you are fun! Bob + BB + Tombstalker... greatness, at any cost!

About Mox: My first love in MTG, lightning bolt. Second would be hymn. Third.. deranged hermit! Hymn into Wasteland from T2 on? Absolutely. Haven't looked at Mox "tied" to Hymn. I'll keep the rocks around for meow to live the dream.

I love Kaya & Liliana the Last Hope. In fact I think a split between Veil and Hope is correct more times than not.. If a lot of board control is desired our main, I dig a 3-1 Lili split + Deluge to taste.

About Copter: I tend to view it the same way. I have had it in/out. I think it's a great toy for our Shamans and our tokens. I think the card really pops with a Bitterblossom out. Copter is definitely the family truckster.

The Avengers seem like a lot of fun. I've wanted to try them out and always forget to bust 'em out. Thanks for the reminder, my man.

Edit: Forgot to ask if y'all had any opinions on Conqueror's Flail. It is easy hardcast and is annoying for all them fancy instant-casting folk. With DRS alone its a +2 and with any white nonland permanent makes it a +3 while keeping the opponent off defensive Brainstorms.
It's not the most bad ass effect but being further rewarded for for having DRS is incredibly goofy in its own right. If there's not a big prize pool and Fire/Icing people is too business-forward, Flail brings the fun and DRS beats.

Keep your filthy Dazes, blue mage scum!

[Fjaulnir]

I'm a big fan of the 1-off Lili the Last Hope like here
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/700933#paper

Have been advocating a 2-1 or 3-1 split in Deadguy and even Pox for a while now.

Haven't had time to test Copter tho

[Ganfar]

@Notion Thief - I more or less have a big collection of white/black stuff and am always changing my list. Luckily, my two play groups are solid and we try to explore when we can so I don't have to alllllways show up with a pile of 1CMC good-stuff w/ Delvers. So thanks for the empathetic reply! kek

I feel the BB/L-Soulz comment. It's slower, yes, but it's constant. Your "bit slow" caveat can be instantly felt in the games where it feels bad. Also, cards that kill you are fun! Bob + BB + Tombstalker... greatness, at any cost!

About Mox: My first love in MTG, lightning bolt. Second would be hymn. Third.. deranged hermit! Hymn into Wasteland from T2 on? Absolutely. Haven't looked at Mox "tied" to Hymn. I'll keep the rocks around for meow to live the dream.

I love Kaya & Liliana the Last Hope. In fact I think a split between Veil and Hope is correct more times than not.. If a lot of board control is desired our main, I dig a 3-1 Lili split + Deluge to taste.

About Copter: I tend to view it the same way. I have had it in/out. I think it's a great toy for our Shamans and our tokens. I think the card really pops with a Bitterblossom out. Copter is definitely the family truckster.

The Avengers seem like a lot of fun. I've wanted to try them out and always forget to bust 'em out. Thanks for the reminder, my man.

Edit: Forgot to ask if y'all had any opinions on Conqueror's Flail. It is easy hardcast and is annoying for all them fancy instant-casting folk. With DRS alone its a +2 and with any white nonland permanent makes it a +3 while keeping the opponent off defensive Brainstorms.
It's not the most bad ass effect but being further rewarded for for having DRS is incredibly goofy in its own right. If there's not a big prize pool and Fire/Icing people is too business-forward, Flail brings the fun and DRS beats.

Keep your filthy Dazes, blue mage scum!

I never wanted BB over tidehollow sculler myself. I think it can be a good sideborad card against some matchups. You can also discard souls to Liliana and the flashback it.

Chrome Mox: I have tried Chrome Mox but never like it. It can be dead card in late game and I hate cards that are totally dead. My list is not good with Chrome Mox either, can't inprint Tidehollow. If you run Chrome Mox you should have 4 Hymn.

Kaya has been great for me in the grindy match ups where she is needed. I want to have Last Hope as well but I can't fit her in i my 75. Gideon, Ally of Zendikar is bigger and powerful. Last Hope is great when there are lot of decks with X/1

Copter is good but not better two drop then Bob, Stoneforge and Tidehollow Scruller. All three of them will do soemthing when they enter the battlefiled or next turn. Copter does do anything on turn 2.

I don't feel the need for Conqueror's Flail. We are not a combo deck that need to prevent the oppnemnt to intergate. It don't solve any issues the deck has.

[Wilkin]

Played in another small 14 player tournament. Prizes was still a 1k which was nice. I won the tournament, top 8 split $125 each. 4 round swiss with a cut to top 8. List is still the same, I haven't changed much since Sensei's Diving Top got banned

Round 1. Miracles. Win in 2.
Unexpectedly absent is annoying but I'm able to power through it. Lingering Souls was king here, being able to apply pressure. Also Explosives was key in game 2, where I blew up 2 Angel tokens and a Monk token.

Round 2. Eldrazi. Win in 2.
Fortunately, in neither game did my opponent cast a Chalice on turn 1. Fun play was in game 1 where he cast a Thought Knot Seer and sees....3 lands. I proceed to topdeck a Shriekmaw. Kill a creature and draw a card? Yes, please. Shriekmaw was MVP here. Not only killing Eldrazi left and right, but only his Mishra's Factory is able to block it. I cast 2 Shriekmaw in game 1, one at 5 mana and at least a Shriekmaw at 5 mana in game 2. I have a Humility and Ensnaring Bridge in game 2, luckily he didn't side in Ulamog. Endless one is annoying but I got around that with Bontu's Last Reckoning.

Round 3. Sneak Show with Omniscience. Win in 2.
He's able to Show and tell a Griselbrand in. I cast a Liliana and he draws 14....and whiffs on a Force of Will. Game 2, he plays a land and ponders. I cast Therapy. Resolves. I name Show and Tell. I hit one....and promptly Surgically extract it. LOL. Game is much easier knowing that Omniscience isn't likely going to happen.

Round 4. Merfolk. ID. We are both easily locked in top 8

Round 5. Top 8. Czech Pile. Win in 3.
I win games 1 due to 3 wastelands. He wins game 2 with TNN, Angler, Shaman and friends. Game 3, he stumbles on his mana base. Again. He has 2 Volcanic Islands...and I proceed to cast Lingering Souls, Gideon, Sword of Fire and Ice....etc.

Round 6. Dark Depths Black green. Win in 2.
I thoughtseize his Hexmage turn 1 (he had Urborg and Dark depths in hand). My Dark Confidant turn 2 draws my fun stuff to win. Game 2 is a grind fest. He's able to discard my answers for Marit Lage and makes one. He swings for 20, knocking me down to 2. My topdeck...is Humility. Suddenly my Stoneforge Mystic and Shamans are able to block and also go on the offensive. The match takes a while since neither of us draw much (or lol can't do much either) since he cast Lost Legacy on me, taking my Lingering Souls.

Round 7. Sneak show with Omniscience. Win in 2.
I'm able to disrupt him large, plus I have a Bob and Karakas in play. He's at low enough life that he can sneak Griselbrand in but not draw cards. Liliana is able to force the issue and I vindicate his Sneak attack to get a concession. Game 2. He casts a turn 2 blood moon, I fetch for a swamp and can only cast Dark Confidant turn 2 and Turn 3 Sword of Fire and Ice. Luckily both resolve. I'm able to hit a few times. He casts a Show and Tell. He puts in Omniscience, I put in Humility. He can cast Emrakul for an extra turn but it's still just a 1/1. Emrakul still has to chump block my Dark Confidant or possibly die. He's able to ponder and brainstorm but isn't able to find a Cunning Wish.

So I get an invite to a year end tournament at one of my local stores. Nice. Next tournament at this store is even better, since it's a trial for Eternal Weekend. One, I really want to win.
Humility was MVP here. Slowed down Eldrazi. Stole a game vs Dark Depths. Won my game 2 vs Sneak Show.

[Notion Thief]

Nice run there, have a list?

[Wilkin]

Nice run there, have a list?

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/this-week-in-legacy-reinvigorated-archetypes-and-cancon-2017-legacy

That's the maindeck listed there.

Board is similar.
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Bontu's Last Reckoning
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Collective Brutality
1 Humility
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar

[Ganfar]

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/this-week-in-legacy-reinvigorated-archetypes-and-cancon-2017-legacy

That's the maindeck listed there.

Board is similar.
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Bontu's Last Reckoning
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Collective Brutality
1 Humility
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Great to hear you win! I think Show and Tell is the better combo matchup for this deck.

I have you ever cast Leyline btw? You want either have 3-4 to have it in the start hand or none. Turn 3-4 Leyline can be to slow for the good graveyard decks.

How do you feel with playing with 3 Stoneforge and 3 equips? I have heard you should have one more Stoneforge then number of Equips in a deck.

[Wilkin]

Great to hear you win! I think Show and Tell is the better combo matchup for this deck.

I have you ever cast Leyline btw? You want either have 3-4 to have it in the start hand or none. Turn 3-4 Leyline can be to slow for the good graveyard decks.

How do you feel with playing with 3 Stoneforge and 3 equips? I have heard you should have one more Stoneforge then number of Equips in a deck.

I'm not sure what you mean about show and tell. For me, Sneak show without Omniscience is favored for me. If they have Omniscience they are favored. I'm usually a sitting duck if they have Omniscience out, whereas I can deal with big fattie creatures most of the time.

Yeah, I've cast Leyline before. I'm a lot luckier than most people so that's why I only run 1. lol. But even casting it for 4 is good against Punishing Jund.

I used to run 4 Mystics but I'd have it happen where a resolved Mystic has nothing to search for. Which obviously sucks. That's why I cut one and I find it's great for me.

[Ganfar]

DeadGuyAle was displayed in MTG GoldFish:

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/this-week-in-legacy-july-statistics

I think I saw the same list on page 286

[Fjaulnir]

Wilkin how did the Bontus Last Reck work out; were you satisfied with it when you drew it, and was it better in those situations than a second Toxic Deluge?

[CptHaddock]

Wilkin how did the Bontus Last Reck work out; were you satisfied with it when you drew it, and was it better in those situations than a second Toxic Deluge?

I think he's covered this before in this thread. 2 deluges tend to be a lot of life loss. I'm currently playing 2 Zealous Persecution instead.


Got 2nd in a very small tournament today. 13 people. 5 rounds, cut to top 4. $200 credit for my troubles. Went 3-1-1 in Swiss. Beat 3 Variations of Delver and lost to Elves.

Beat Delver in Swiss and lost to Elves again in finals.

Tried Bontu's Last Reckoning today. It's ok. I don't want 2 Toxic Deluges, so going with a split. There is a real cost involved if it resolves but at same time i'm usually happy it cleared the board for at least a turn.

Going to keep it in for a while. Happy I did ok today, was on a bit of a dry spell.

[Wilkin]

Yeah I thought I covered that before on Bontu's Last Reckoning. It's ok. I only run one, Multiple Deluges would be too much life especially vs a deck like say Eldrazi.

As far as playing it last Sunday. I cast it once vs Eldrazi. He was at 1 life with a 9/9 endless one (8/8 plus the 1/1 from Humility), Eldrazi Mimic and Thought Knot Seer. I had 2 creatures out with Ensnaring Bridge and Humility out. I had 8 mana out in a long stretched out game so I first cast Reckoning to clear the board and then cast Hero of Bladehold. lol, it's only a 1/1 but a threat nonetheless.

My opponent top decked a dude to stalemate again. A later Lingering Souls provided the amount of dudes I needed to win.

[Sleepy_Eyes]

If a majority of the creature decks you run into tend to run x/1s and x/2s would Bontu's be on your radar?
I could definitely see at least one in sideboard some where if I ran into dudes that were a little on the beefy end though.

Speaking of cards from Devastation... I'm always looking for things to add to my B/W toolbox and the new zombie crocodile demon looks fun enough. Any thoughts on Ammit Eternal? Would just jamming in an Angler or Tombstalker be more effective?

[Notion Thief]

If a majority of the creature decks you run into tend to run x/1s and x/2s would Bontu's be on your radar?
I could definitely see at least one in sideboard some where if I ran into dudes that were a little on the beefy end though.

Speaking of cards from Devastation... I'm always looking for things to add to my B/W toolbox and the new zombie crocodile demon looks fun enough. Any thoughts on Ammit Eternal? Would just jamming in an Angler or Tombstalker be more effective?

Zombie croc is interesting. Afflict is a surprisingly good form of pseudo evasion from my brief experiences with it because it makes combat math really weird. I image it would often end up just trading with an opponents creature and dying while doing 3 damage. However it's a great topdeck if your opponent is hell-bent, but then again so are lots of things. Seems like a card that is super game state dependent but is potentially powerful if you don't just try to use it like your standard run of the mill beater. I plan to test with it at some point, although i suspect it may be a little too fragile in a world of cantrips and force of will/daze.

[Ganfar]

Zombie croc is interesting. Afflict is a surprisingly good form of pseudo evasion from my brief experiences with it because it makes combat math really weird. I image it would often end up just trading with an opponents creature and dying while doing 3 damage. However it's a great topdeck if your opponent is hell-bent, but then again so are lots of things. Seems like a card that is super game state dependent but is potentially powerful if you don't just try to use it like your standard run of the mill beater. I plan to test with it at some point, although i suspect it may be a little too fragile in a world of cantrips and force of will/daze.

The issue I see with Croc is that he is only a big beater. It's smaller and cost more then Mr. Gofy. You can cast more spells in legacy so the croc will die agaist strom.