[Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

[Discipleoffblthp]

Been trying out different iterations of the deck in this uro/oko meta and cant decide on having chrome mox or not. What are yall thoughts on the card? Is it needed pumping out a t1 bob or sfm or t2 walker but losing a potential threat if theres no dead cards in hand to pitch?

[Reeplcheep]

Been trying out different iterations of the deck in this uro/oko meta and cant decide on having chrome mox or not. What are yall thoughts on the card? Is it needed pumping out a t1 bob or sfm or t2 walker but losing a potential threat if theres no dead cards in hand to pitch?

IMO if you plan on accelerating out a 2 drop instead of casting discard you should be playing a 4c Loam variant over dead-guy ale. Just cut the blue/red cards and you have a decent junk shell

[Discipleoffblthp]

I personally dont like the card but whenever I see the deck post a 5-0 its running 2-3. So just trying to see others thoughts/experiences with it.

Also, I've switched out my 2 vindicates for 2 anguished unmaking and even tho I loved vindicate, the instant speed of anguished has been really nice. Not being able to hit lands hasn't come up for me yet.

[CptHaddock]

I personally dont like the card but whenever I see the deck post a 5-0 its running 2-3. So just trying to see others thoughts/experiences with it.

Also, I've switched out my 2 vindicates for 2 anguished unmaking and even tho I loved vindicate, the instant speed of anguished has been really nice. Not being able to hit lands hasn't come up for me yet.

Outside of library what popular permanents are you killing with the vindicate effect that you destroying that you wouldn't get 90% of the time with eliminate? The 3 cmc vindicate effects are just old style of card that isn't playable anymore and the 3 cmc slot has become especially crowded with cards like last hope and kaya.

Chrome mox is a nice because DGA is your quintessential midrange deck, your cards really aren't that good in the late game so it you accelerate them out and maximizes their effectiveness. It's obviously a very high risk/high reward card since mulliganing with them in your deck is much worse and they are dead draws later in the game but what you're getting out of them outweighs what you are losing imo.


IMO if you plan on accelerating out a 2 drop instead of casting discard you should be playing a 4c Loam variant over dead-guy ale. Just cut the blue/red cards and you have a decent junk shell

I too love coming into the DGA thread and telling people who ask about cards to play a different deck. :cool:

[Reeplcheep]

I too love coming into the DGA thread and telling people who ask about cards to play a different deck. :cool:

Acceleration pairs more naturally with haymakers like bob & chalice than 1 for 1 cards like thoughtseize due to the inherrent card disadvantage. If you are playing chrome mox, leaning into a chalice shell would be appealing.

[Discipleoffblthp]

I've been liking vindicte/anguished unmaking as a sort of catch all card to hit 4 mana walkers, artifact hate, and just other world enchantments like counterbalance (specifically my play group). But in saying that the card is super slow and with eliminate being printed I could cut them and up my number on those, currently running 2. On the topic of chrome mox what would be the ratio of it to lands, 19-20 lands and 2 chrome mox?

[aedemiel]

Maybe we should talk about that (https://youtu.be/nTcRX8lSNzw)?

[Mr. Safety]

I have that video in my queue to watch, it looks pretty awesome. I don't know why Fatal Push is there over Swords to Plowshares, but should be fine with 4x Liliana of the Veil to clean up dudes.

[bwangeroo]

Hi, I'm the one who brewed + donated the decklist. Push instead of Plow is to make it easier on the manabase — you don't always have/want to get white mana on turn 1. But I could certainly see putting Plow there instead, having been on the receiving end of Gurmag Anglers and Hooting Mandrils with Push in hand.

I've been having a blast playing this list and hope others try it out too. Making the deck basically mono-black allows you to play Dark Ritual (>> Chrome Mox), which has been an MVP for me and allows you to more efficiently do the whole "disrupt opponents -> land must-answer threat" thing that makes Deadguy Ale tick.

[Wilkin]

Yeah, if you are going with a dedicated Opposition Agent route you almost have to do Dark ritual. Turn 1 Opposition Agent to a fetchland could be game over right there.

But a late game Agent? Sometimes it can still do stuff like another fetchland, Natural Order, a Crop rotation etc. But late game there might be not much to hit. I'm curious as to the wording. So if you snipe a fetchland you get one of their lands that you could get (ie. you can't get a wasteland off a Polluted Delta). If you get a Natural Order, you get a green creature of theirs into play? What's with the wording about casting a spell using any color of mana?

Going to have to read up on the rulings on this card. Very interesting card. Not sure where to slot it as the 3 mana slot is so cluttered in Dead guy ale.

[Reeplcheep]

In my curses agent was very good with other fast mana in a vacuum. Field of Ruin raises the floor of the card significantly if you can afford the land.

However without other mana denial or creatures it didn't fit well in the deck; it turned on all the opponents removal, it had no support so the beater value was minimal, and the mana denial effect didn't have enough backup to matter. In a DGA deck those cons are not present and so has a lot of promise.

[bwangeroo]

Yeah, if you are going with a dedicated Opposition Agent route you almost have to do Dark ritual. Turn 1 Opposition Agent to a fetchland could be game over right there.

But a late game Agent? Sometimes it can still do stuff like another fetchland, Natural Order, a Crop rotation etc. But late game there might be not much to hit. I'm curious as to the wording. So if you snipe a fetchland you get one of their lands that you could get (ie. you can't get a wasteland off a Polluted Delta). If you get a Natural Order, you get a green creature of theirs into play? What's with the wording about casting a spell using any color of mana?

Going to have to read up on the rulings on this card. Very interesting card. Not sure where to slot it as the 3 mana slot is so cluttered in Dead guy ale.

Yeah, Opposition Agent is definitely at its best turn 1, but it's still relevant later in the game. At worst it's a flash threat that pressures planeswalkers and carries a sword. I do find it to be my most frequently boarded out card though, since it seems the most matchup-dependent. Against something like Delver where it's really only fetchlands you're hitting, you don't want to rely on having Dark Ritual to make the card good.

As for the wording of the card, yeah it is a bit confusing. Anytime you're searching opponent's library you can only find things that they would've been able to find — you're right that you can't fetch Wasteland off Polluted Delta. Similarly, for Natural Order, you can only find green creatures. But it wouldn't go directly into play — Opposition Agent exiles it, and you can play it as long as it's exiled (including if Opposition Agent dies), spending mana of any color. Speaking of Natural Order, I once had the pleasure of casting a Hornet Queen off of Opposition Agent after ambushing a Natural Order against Nic Fit. It was glorious. Could've been Progenitus if I had one more land.

[Clark Kant]

I love Opposition Agent but playing a full 4 Dark Ritual is too much card disadvantage and often leads me to having multiples of them clogging up my hand midgame. I like seeing at most 1 Dark Ritual per game, even if it means I rarely have it in my opening hand.

I dont think turn 1 Agent is necessary for the deck to be good. Confidant and Hymn are as awesome as ever and black has gotten a ton of sweet new creatures and removal spells in recent sets.

I am wondering if a list along these lines could be made to work in Legacy...

4 Hymn to Tourach

4 Thoughtseize

2 Bloodchief’s Thirst

1 Fatal Push

1 Inquisition of Kozilek

1 Cling to Dust

1 Dark Ritual

1 Eliminate

1 Reanimate (or Unearth)


3 Liliana of the Veil

1 Liliana, the Last Hope


4 Dark Confidant

4 Opposition Agent

1 Nighthawk Scavenger

1 Nullpriest of Oblivion

1 Murderous Rider

1 Gatekeeper of Malakir

1 Gifted Aetherborn

1 Maralen of the Mornsong

1 Plague Engineer

1 Rotting Regisaur

1 Bitterblossom

0 Court of Ambition (or Jitte)


14 Swamp

4 Wasteland

2 Castle Lochwain

1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

1 Agadeem’s Awakening

1 Volrath’s Stronghold


Sideboard:

4 Leyline of the Void

3 Plague Engineer

3 Pithing Needle

2 Chains of Mephistopheles

2 Surgical Extraction

1 Cling to Dust


Would love to get input from the community on the list above.

Edit: Updated the list, cut the Court of Ambition for a Cling to Dust (better choice in this meta), and replaced a Dark Ritual with a swamp because this deck needed more stable mana sources.

Edit 2: After a few dozen games on MTGO, Bitterblossom, Dark Confidant, Dark Ritual and Nighthawk Scavenger have all vastly exceeded expectations. I have now adopted playing playset of all four! On the same note, the Liliana planeswalkers havent been nearly as good as I hoped. Ive ended up cutting a few.

[Captain Hammer]

Deadguy Ale is B/w, so I think the Stoneforge Mystic list that just 5-0ed is a better example. The list above is more correctly called, The Gate.

One and two ofs make sense as long as they are cards that have excellent significant impact in certain situations or against specific common matchups, and have subpar marginal utility against just about everything or are only occasionally completely useless so that you never want to see multiples of them in the same game(you can discard or Mox them away the first one fairly easily in the matchups where they prove useless).

Here is what I suggest as far as a monoblack take on Deadguy Ale (more disruption and recursion focused)...

14 Swamp
4 Wasteland
2 Castle Lochwain
1 Agadeem's Awakening
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Chrome Mox
3 Dark Ritual
2 Cling to Dust
2 Bloodchief's Thirst
2 Sinkhole
2 Smallpox
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Bitterblossom
4 Dark Confidant
2 Opposition Agent
2 Nighthawk Scavenger
2 Rotting Regisaur
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana the Last Hope
1 Reanimate
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Eliminate
1 Pox
1 Murderous Rider
1 Nullpriest of Oblivion
1 Plague Engineer

Sideboard
1 Plague Engineer
1 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Chains of Mephistopheles
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Trinisphere
1 Surgical Extraction

Just cut any 9 cards from the maindeck above (based on the local meta you face or based on your own personal experience with the cards) and you're golden. Obviously, you would want to cut the more mana hungry cards if you opt to keep the Smallpox/Pox in, and if you opt to take those out, you would want to cut a few lands and some Bitterblossoms as well.

[Captain Hammer]

This is the deadguy ale list that 5-0ed...

https://youtu.be/nTcRX8lSNzw

I think it should play a Vampire of the Diremoon to pair with the Swords equipment and with Agadeem’s Awakening.

[Wilkin]

As a 1 drop I'd rather run a Foulmire Knight or a Crypt Breaker. Or they could unban Deathrite Shaman lol.

Interesting list though.

[Pittplayer]

Deadguy Ale is B/w, so I think the Stoneforge Mystic list that just 5-0ed is a better example. The list above is more correctly called, The Gate.

One and two ofs make sense as long as they are cards that have excellent significant impact in certain situations or against specific common matchups, and have subpar marginal utility against just about everything or are only occasionally completely useless so that you never want to see multiples of them in the same game(you can discard or Mox them away the first one fairly easily in the matchups where they prove useless).

Here is what I suggest as far as a monoblack take on Deadguy Ale (more disruption and recursion focused)...

14 Swamp
4 Wasteland
2 Castle Lochwain
1 Agadeem's Awakening
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Chrome Mox
3 Dark Ritual
2 Cling to Dust
2 Bloodchief's Thirst
2 Sinkhole
2 Smallpox
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Bitterblossom
4 Dark Confidant
2 Opposition Agent
2 Nighthawk Scavenger
2 Rotting Regisaur
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana the Last Hope
1 Reanimate
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Eliminate
1 Pox
1 Murderous Rider
1 Nullpriest of Oblivion
1 Plague Engineer

Sideboard
1 Plague Engineer
1 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Chains of Mephistopheles
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Trinisphere
1 Surgical Extraction

Just cut any 9 cards from the maindeck above (based on the local meta you face or based on your own personal experience with the cards) and you're golden. Obviously, you would want to cut the more mana hungry cards if you opt to keep the Smallpox/Pox in, and if you opt to take those out, you would want to cut a few lands and some Bitterblossoms as well.

This... is a Pox deck.

[Captain Hammer]

This... is a Pox deck.

That list has a maximum of 2 Smallpox both of which can be among the 9 cards you cut from the list to bring it down to 60. My current build cut the pox and a smallpox from the list altogether along with 2 bitterblossom and a few other cards so it looks and plays identical to Deadguy Ale but with Nighthawk Scavenger serving the function that Batterskull/Stoneforge did (huge evasive threat and lifegain) while taking up fewer slots (freeing up slots for 4 Opposition Agent alongside 4 Wasteland and Sinkhole), costing less mana and losing fewer games due to being cut out from the white source due to Wasteland/Stifle/Agent effects.

Here is my current list, it feels and plays just like any other Deadguy Ale list and its been doing fantastic on MTGO, sadly fell just 1 game short of 5-0ing..

13 Swamp
4 Wasteland
2 Silent Clearing
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Agadeem's Awakening
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
2 Bloodchief's Thirst
1 Fatal Push
1 Reanimate

4 Dark Confidant
4 Opposition Agent
4 Nighthawk Scavenger
2 Bitterblossom
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana the Last Hope
1 Phyrexian Revoker/Inquisiton of Kozilek/Cling to Dust/Eliminate/Liliana the Last Hope (Testing between these 5 cards at the moment, not sure yet which of these 5 cards belongs in this slot)

Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Pithing Needle
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Plague Enginner
2 Necromentia
1 Liliana's Triumph
1 Surgical Extraction

The only reason I am testing Sinkhole is because it synergizes incredibly well with Opposition Agent/Wasteland (Smallpox also synergizes with bitterblossom). Sinkhole and Smallpox also often manage to win games all by themselves through mana screw and even take out problematic cards like Dark Depths, Field of Ruin, Maze of Ith, Ancient Tomb, Karakas, Rishidan Port or cut opponent's off from a critical color.

[Pittplayer]

That list has a maximum of 2 Smallpox both of which can be among the 9 cards you cut from the list to bring it down to 60. My current build cut the pox and a smallpox from the list altogether along with 2 bitterblossom and a few other cards so it looks and plays identical to Deadguy Ale but with Nighthawk Scavenger serving the function that Batterskull/Stoneforge did (huge evasive threat and lifegain) while taking up fewer slots (freeing up slots for 4 Opposition Agent alongside 4 Wasteland and Sinkhole), costing less mana and losing fewer games due to being cut out from the white source due to Wasteland/Stifle/Agent effects.

Here is my current list, it feels and plays just like any other Deadguy Ale list and its been doing fantastic on MTGO...

13 Swamp
4 Wasteland
2 Silent Clearing
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Agadeem's Awakening
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
2 Bloodchief's Thirst
1 Fatal Push
1 Reanimate

4 Dark Confidant
4 Opposition Agent
4 Nighthawk Scavenger
2 Bitterblossom
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana the Last Hope
1 Phyrexian Revoker/Inquisiton of Kozilek/Cling to Dust/Eliminate/Liliana the Last Hope (Testing between these 5 cards at the moment, not sure yet which of these 5 cards belongs in this slot)

Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Pithing Needle
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Plague Enginner
2 Necromentia
1 Liliana's Triumph
1 Surgical Extraction

The only reason I am testing Sinkhole is because it synergizes incredibly well with Opposition Agent/Wasteland (Smallpox also synergizes with bitterblossom). Sinkhole and Smallpox also often manage to win games all by themselves through mana screw and even take out problematic cards like Dark Depths, Field of Ruin, Maze of Ith, Ancient Tomb, Karakas, Rishidan Port or cut opponent's off from a critical color.

Ok. But you do understand this is not B/W Deadguy, which is what this thread is here for to discuss and share lists. Your deck is a Pox deck. Or, since you dispute that, a monoblack control list. Either way, it does not in any way belong on a Deadguy thread. And you are spamming the conversation.

[Captain Hammer]

Ok. But you do understand this is not B/W Deadguy, which is what this thread is here for to discuss and share lists. Your deck is a Pox deck. Or, since you dispute that, a monoblack control list. Either way, it does not in any way belong on a Deadguy thread. And you are spamming the conversation.

The list shares 90% of the same cards as Deadguy Ale, plays out the same but actually outperforms the Stoneforge Mythic version in my experience (I've played a list nearly identical to 5-0 list in the video above and this list is actually more oppressive thanks to Sinkhole).

Stoneforge Mystic isn't even good enough for Modern for a reason, its a very slow card, and splashing a color just for one slow vulnerable beatstick that takes up 7 slots no longer makes sense with the recent threats and removal printed into black the past year. But I get your point, you do not want to discuss monoblack versions of Deadguy in the thread. So I will stop posting here.

[bwangeroo]

Felt like sharing my current list after playing around with it over the past couple months:

3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
2 Swamp
1 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland

4 Dark Ritual
3 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Fatal Push

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Bitterblossom
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Opposition Agent
1 Lingering Souls
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

Sideboard

1 Rest in Peace
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Plague Engineer
2 Meddling Mage
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives

Comments on some aspects of the maindeck:

1 Bayou / 1 Underground Sea: For splashes out of the sideboard (see below).

1 Mishra's Factory: Great utility land to have – picks up equipment after your other threats have been answered, provides extra pressure against planeswalkers, and can actually profitably block 2/2's unlike the rest of your creatures. I think going up to 2 would strain the manabase a bit too much, but I'd also miss not having it at all, hence playing 1.

4 Dark Ritual: I think everybody should be playing this in Deadguy nowadays, and not just because of the synergy with Opposition Agent; if you're on Chrome Mox or no acceleration, I think you're missing out. The format is too fast for no acceleration, and your strategy isn't so overtly powerful that you can afford losing an extra card to Chrome Mox. Dark Ritual enables your most busted starts, and due to equipment isn't dead in the mid-to-late game either.

2 Swords to Plowshares / 2 Fatal Push split: All your non-colorless lands produce black, whereas only Scrublands produce white, so the split is a concession to the manabase.

1 Bitterblossom / 1 Lingering Souls split: Basically drawing two of either isn't great due to life loss and clunkiness respectively. A split has felt right to me.

2 Opposition Agent / 2 Revoker split: Your suite of disruptive creatures. Other lists might play something like Tidehollow Sculler in these slots, but I like diversifying the disruption a bit given you're already playing so much discard. You want some of each effect depending on the matchup, but don't necessarily want more than one of each, hence the split. Revoker was included in the pre-ban meta due to Oko, but in the post-ban matches I've played it's still earned its place.

Overall, I'm pretty happy with where the maindeck is at and don't foresee myself making significant changes in the near future.

Comments on some aspects of the sideboard:

2 Abrupt Decay / 1 Engineered Explosives: I've been trying a green splash for Decays over something like Vindicate, aiming to help in two categories of matchups specifically: 1) Chalice decks (because they're bad game 1 matchups) and 2) Delver (because it's popular). I do miss the flexibility of Vindicate (being able to blow up a land is surprisingly relevant a lot of the time, as well as Karn, Gurmag Angler, etc...), but it comes at the cost of speed, and you don't have that much time in the aforementioned matchups. I'm leaning towards the green splash being worth it but I think it's close. Explosives is basically the third Decay but requires a bit less of the manabase.

2 Meddling Mage: The latest thing I've been trying. I've only played 2 leagues on MTGO with it, but it's impressed me so far. In most matchups you want it, you don't have to worry about Wasteland, so castability is less a concern than it looks at first. It's of course gas against combo matchups, but it's also got utility against other decks where one key spell beats you: Punishing Fire, Uro, and Primeval Titan come to mind.

Other things I've tried that I wouldn't necessarily recommend:

Red splash for Pyroblast out of the sideboard: You're a tap out deck so it's hard to keep up Pyroblast as a counter. Didn't feel great even when Oko was everywhere and is probably even less good now.

Doomsday transformational sideboard (casting Thassa's Oracle off of Manamorphose): Took too many sideboard slots and was just super clunky.

1 basic Plains: Only tried a few games with this but it felt really bad every time I drew the Plains.

Other things maybe worth trying in the future:

– Veil of Summer, Choke, Sylvan Library in the sideboard
– Karakas, Castle Locthwain as alternative utility lands

All in all, I've probably played ~125 matches on MTGO with various iterations of this deck over the past few months (the bulk of it pre-ban) and maintained a ~60-70% match win rate. This is to say – and maybe I'm preaching to the choir here – that I think Deadguy is much better than people normally give it credit for, and more people should give it a chance. Plus, it's super fun and you always get to feel like the good guy when you're playing it :cool:

Happy to share more if anybody has questions.

[Reivaj]

Hi.

Do you think Opposition agent plan is solid right now? Lately I'm seeing a lot of delver variants and I feel it's too slow even with Dark ritual. Currently I'm running 4 Swords to plowshares and 3 Abrupt Decay to deal with Dreadhorde arcanist . Delver of secrets, Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath, etc.
Regarding Dark ritual issue I agree we need the acceleration they offer but 4 is a lot because they are horrible on multiple and as a topdeck even with equipments.
Have you tested Cling to dust?

[bwangeroo]

Do you think Opposition agent plan is solid right now? Lately I'm seeing a lot of delver variants and I feel it's too slow even with Dark ritual.

I do think Opposition Agent is solid. Of course, it's not great against Delver, but a lot of the meta isn't Delver. It's great against any deck with Crop Rotation, any deck with GSZ, hits Natural Order out of Elves as well, and is pretty good against DnT too (hitting Recruiter + Stoneforge). Snagging fetchlands, even on later turns, is pretty good against control decks that need to develop their mana. I wouldn't say that the deck has an Opposition Agent "plan" though – as it is, I'm only running two. It's a nice disruptive element to have but your gameplan doesn't revolve around it.


Currently I'm running 4 Swords to plowshares and 3 Abrupt Decay to deal with Dreadhorde arcanist. Delver of secrets, Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath, etc.

Decay is great, but I like playing it out of the board a bit better. I don't want to necessarily get stuck with too many reactive elements at the cost of my own proactive gameplan, and also it's a bit easier on the mana to only have two colors pre-board. Also, you don't have to worry about Dreadhorde Arcanist any more :).


Regarding Dark ritual issue I agree we need the acceleration they offer but 4 is a lot because they are horrible on multiple and as a topdeck even with equipments

Eh, I don't think they're actually that bad in multiples, particularly in opening hands. Like, Rit->Rit->Bob->Liliana is a terrific sequence that's absolutely worth spending the extra cards on. It's also worth noting that even in the mid-to-late game you can be strapped for mana. Plenty of decks work on Wasting/Porting your lands, Bob leads you to accumulate lots of cards in hand, bouncing + recasting Batterskull in the same turn costs 8, etc.


Have you tested Cling to dust?

Not recently; I had tried it in the mono black shell that my list grew out of. It felt OK, not great. With SFM you don't need the lifegain aspect of it as much as a monoblack shell might. As a SB option for graveyard hate I think there are more powerful options available.

[jubeininja69]

Not recently; I had tried it in the mono black shell that my list grew out of. It felt OK, not great. With SFM you don't need the lifegain aspect of it as much as a monoblack shell might. As a SB option for graveyard hate I think there are more powerful options available.

I really like your list! I have a few questions and it seems mtg the source is the only place we can talk deadguy ale.

I don't have chains in paper so what are some cards I could replace it with?

How do you feel about a single plains to hedge against blood moon?

It seems we don't have any storm hate?

Do you have any VODs or do you stream?

[Valech]

I really like your list! I have a few questions and it seems mtg the source is the only place we can talk deadguy ale.

I don't have chains in paper so what are some cards I could replace it with?

Seeing that it mostly helps against draw-y Combo decks, try Ethersworn Canonist.


How do you feel about a single plains to hedge against blood moon?

Yes. The times it screws you out of your gameplan T1 is negligeable.


It seems we don't have any storm hate?

Ethersworn Canonist :D

[Wilkin]

I run Thalia, Guardian of Thraben in the board. It can get awkward at times, making Liliana cost 4 but it's usually worth it vs a deck like Storm. Plus, with Chrome Mox, a turn 1 Thalia is pretty sweet.

[Mr. Safety]

I don't have chains in paper so what are some cards I could replace it with?

Spirit of the Labyrinth has been used in D&T on occasion, I think with mixed results. Having 1 toughness is a fairly big liability, it dies to literally every removal played in the format. I think for the same mana investment your best bet is to just play Hymn to Tourach; it isn't a lock like Chains but it attacks their hand to provide a window for getting a superior board presence. Words of Waste is an interesting option that gives you agency on when you want to draw and when you want opponents to discard, which seems really good if you have a Dark Confidant 'drawing' you a card every turn. I think it's mana cost is one too many and it's probably too conditional to actually be good, but it's an interesting card.

[Reivaj]

I'm currently on E.tutor sideboard so I play 2xEnlightened tutor, 1xDeafening silence, 1xEthersworn canonist, 2x Rest in peace and 2xSurgical extraction
I'm also playing 4xThoughtseize, 3xHymn to Tourach and 3xInquisition of Kozilek on main (plus 3xLiliana of the Veil) so combo matchups (ANT and TES) don't feel unwinnable.

[bwangeroo]

I really like your list! I have a few questions and it seems mtg the source is the only place we can talk deadguy ale.

Thanks! Yeah I kind of wish there was a DGA discord. I'd set one up but I'm not sure I want to deal with moderation and such.


I don't have chains in paper so what are some cards I could replace it with?

Hmm maybe Spirit of the Labyrinth? Other things that come to mind that might have a similar effect would be Choke off the green splash or Hullbreacher off the blue splash. But yeah Spirit probably does the most similar thing here.


How do you feel about a single plains to hedge against blood moon?

I'm not sure about it – I tried it for a couple games but it didn't feel good. It would probably have to replace a colorless land (e.g. the Factory in my build), and would be competing for Karakas in that same spot. I guess it's a meta call.


It seems we don't have any storm hate?

I haven't found storm to be a bad matchup, so I don't think you necessarily need to have dedicated sb hate for it. Having 13 mb discard effects is pretty potent already, and Opposition Agent + Phyrexian Revoker are really good against storm as well. Plus a lot of the sideboard does have some utility against storm – graveyard hate can be good, Chains can be OK, Meddling Mage is good, Plague Engineer + EE for Goblins. If you want dedicated hate I'd look at Deafening Silence. As others have mentioned Ethersworn Canonist or Thalia are good options as well.


Do you have any VODs or do you stream?

Nope. Have considered making VODS just cause I want to see more DGA content but haven't gotten around to it. You might wanna check out the Phil Gallagher stream of an earlier version of the deck here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTcRX8lSNzw) (also posted earlier in the thread).

[Reeplcheep]

The pox discord is quite active. The WB pox channel has been donated to DGA since dga is probably better than any of the pox builds. Anyways the above builds are basically pox splashing SFM anyways; there is a lot of overlap.


They also gave my curses deck a channel there. I think consolidating fair black but non-blue decks into 1 discord is preferable to fragmenting the community. And there are some possible cross-synergies.

[Reeplcheep]

Comments on bwangeroo’s deck:

Overall I think it is well thought and it’s probably the best fair non-blue thoughtseize deck.

However I don’t think the half way splashes are good. Double coloured spells are already sketchy in a deck with 5 colourless lands without splashing. 11 sources is decent but still a bit concerning. Relying on 1 dual to cast your delver with hate card seems very sketchy to me.

Three opinions of mine:
You need a very good reason to not play fow and brainstorm in a fair deck. You aren’t playing Thalia, a fast combo, or chalice. Thus the only reason DGA is not just bad Esper stoneblade is a better manabase, which you have lost with this build.

Meddling mage is good but it’s arguably worse in fair mus than Tidehollow Sculler or Kitesail Freebooter and not much better in unfair ones. I don’t think it’s worth the splash just for that card.

Decay is good vs delver, but basics vs Delver are better. Vindicate or Skyclave Apparition are both legacy playables.

I think you should either make the cuts above so you can run basic plains, castle lochwain and prismatic vista.
Or accept you have a sketch manabase and play Esper fair blue (stoneblade/vial/mentor depending on whether your favourite card is sfm or soulherder or mentor) for brainstorm, ponder, force of will which are better than any of your sideboard cards.

[Reivaj]

I also think that BW is better positioned on current meta (Delver, D&T and Loam decks). What do you think about a "core shell" like:

8 Creatures
4 Dark confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
21 Other spells
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to plowshares
4 Hymn to tourach
3 Lingering souls
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of fire and ice
1 Batterskull
22 Lands

We have 9 flex slots to tune it to the meta (more discard, removal, Opposition agent), etc.

[bwangeroo]

The pox discord is quite active. The WB pox channel has been donated to DGA since dga is probably better than any of the pox builds. Anyways the above builds are basically pox splashing SFM anyways; there is a lot of overlap.

Good to know, I'll check it out.


Comments on bwangeroo’s deck:

Overall I think it is well thought and it’s probably the best fair non-blue thoughtseize deck.

Thanks – that's quite a compliment.


However I don’t think the half way splashes are good. Double coloured spells are already sketchy in a deck with 5 colourless lands without splashing. 11 sources is decent but still a bit concerning. Relying on 1 dual to cast your delver with hate card seems very sketchy to me.

Meddling mage is good but it’s arguably worse in fair mus than Tidehollow Sculler or Kitesail Freebooter and not much better in unfair ones. I don’t think it’s worth the splash just for that card.

Decay is good vs delver, but basics vs Delver are better. Vindicate or Skyclave Apparition are both legacy playables.

You could be right. I'll continue testing them in the meantime. I think Meddling Mage is actually really good in the unfair matchups (much better than Sculler/Freebooter would be), but it's possible that that's not the best use of those slots since the unfair matchups aren't all that bad to begin with. And a similar, Dark Rit-able effect in Necromentia is available in-color. Also, I've realized through testing recently that it's not as good against certain fair strategies as I thought it would be (Uro/Punishing Fire/Loam).

Decay is a bit more reasonable, I think, given that Vindicate + Skyclave are both pretty slow. It does make the mana a bit awkward, but hitting Goblin Rabblemaster a turn later or getting your removal Dazed are both pretty bad too. That said, I have had a lot of success with Vindicate in the past and I wouldn't be surprised if I went back in that direction eventually.


You need a very good reason to not play fow and brainstorm in a fair deck. You aren’t playing Thalia, a fast combo, or chalice. Thus the only reason DGA is not just bad Esper stoneblade is a better manabase, which you have lost with this build.

What, you mean "I don't wanna play blue" isn't a good enough reason? ;)

More seriously, I do think DGA plays out quite a bit differently than something like Esper stoneblade. Whenever you play cantrips, what you gain in consistency you lose in velocity. DGA starts can often curve out brutally – e.g., thoughtseize into hymn into liliana – whereas fair blue tends to spend the first couple turns sculpting or reacting. Are the tradeoffs worth it to play cantrips? Probably yeah, but important to note that the tradeoff is there and the playstyles end up being quite different as a result.

[kinda]

Comments on bwangeroo’s deck:
Overall I think it is well thought and it’s probably the best fair non-blue thoughtseize deck.


Only*. You haven't seen the doomsday transformational sb version though I don't think. It's unfortunate they stopped posting mtgo results.

[Reivaj]

Decay is a bit more reasonable, I think, given that Vindicate + Skyclave are both pretty slow. It does make the mana a bit awkward, but hitting Goblin Rabblemaster a turn later or getting your removal Dazed are both pretty bad too. That said, I have had a lot of success with Vindicate in the past and I wouldn't be surprised if I went back in that direction eventually.

I've tested Eliminate and Vindicate on Abrupt decay slots and think the green splash is necessary because the most played decks (Grixis, UR Delver and Miracles on my local meta) play 10+ counters.

[Mr. Safety]

Green is worth the splash even for just 2 cards: Abrupt Decay and Sylvan Library. Having access to Veil of Summer and Choke out of the sideboard is pretty hot, too

[Wilkin]

got a skyclave apparition online. Man, it's expensive. Took out the Murderous Rider for it. So far, I'm liking it. Exiled a Phoenix (the 3/2 flyer for 4 mana) with it. And a goblin in another match. Double white can be hard to get at times but I think it's worth it. Plus, being able to get it back with Liliana, the Last Hope is good.

[Reivaj]

What is your prefered removal suite?
I'm currently playing 2 Abrupt decay and 1 Anguished Unmaking because I don't play Liliana, the last hope. Do you think the synergie between her and Skyclave apparition is worth? How many copies of each we should play?
Thanks.

[Wilkin]

I run 2 Vindicate, 1 Skyclave Apparition, 4 Swords to Plowshares, 1 Plague Engineer, 3 Liliana of the Veil and 2 Liliana, the Last Hope.

I think the ability to recur a creature like Skyclave is totally worth it. Only running 1 atm since the double WW isn't the easiest to cast.

[sdematt]

I run 2 Vindicate, 1 Skyclave Apparition, 4 Swords to Plowshares, 1 Plague Engineer, 3 Liliana of the Veil and 2 Liliana, the Last Hope.

I think the ability to recur a creature like Skyclave is totally worth it. Only running 1 atm since the double WW isn't the easiest to cast.

Do you guys think the new card, Fracture, could be worth including? :)

-Matt

[Wilkin]

Fracture. Not a bad card. The one I'm really thinking about though is Vanishing Verse. A more versatile removal spell imo. It does have some notable weaknesses though and certainly doesn't stack up the the GB duo of Assassin's Trophy or Abrupt Decay.

As was really hoping for a card close to Assassin's Trophy to bring my mana curve down (I play a ton of 3 drops). Verse comes very close but not quite. I may try one in the board though.

[sdematt]

Fracture. Not a bad card. The one I'm really thinking about though is Vanishing Verse. A more versatile removal spell imo. It does have some notable weaknesses though and certainly doesn't stack up the the GB duo of Assassin's Trophy or Abrupt Decay.

As was really hoping for a card close to Assassin's Trophy to bring my mana curve down (I play a ton of 3 drops). Verse comes very close but not quite. I may try one in the board though.

What are you wanting to hit with Verse?

I guess here's my train of thought, good or bad:

Fracture:

Pros:
-Hits ANY planeswalker


Cons:
-Doesn't hit creatures, but your STP's do.

Vanishing Verse

Pros:
-Exile vs. Destroy
-Exiles permanents (covers creatures)

Cons:
-Only hits monocoloured

--------

So, I guess what we have to think is, what are we hitting or not?
Vanishing Verse isn't hitting Uro, Fracture will. Verse will hit Goyf/Delver/Hoots/SCM/many creatures, but not Strix/Uro/etc. Verse will hit Marit Lage, Fracture will not.

So, I think there are pros and cons. I think if you're running STP, Fracture may be an interesting inclusion, especially if you're replacing Anguished Unmaking.

Food for thought.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

What are you wanting to hit with Verse?

I guess here's my train of thought, good or bad:

Fracture:

Pros:
-Hits ANY planeswalker


Cons:
-Doesn't hit creatures, but your STP's do.

Vanishing Verse

Pros:
-Exile vs. Destroy
-Exiles permanents (covers creatures)

Cons:
-Only hits monocoloured

--------

So, I guess what we have to think is, what are we hitting or not?
Vanishing Verse isn't hitting Uro, Fracture will. Verse will hit Goyf/Delver/Hoots/SCM/many creatures, but not Strix/Uro/etc. Verse will hit Marit Lage, Fracture will not.

So, I think there are pros and cons. I think if you're running STP, Fracture may be an interesting inclusion, especially if you're replacing Anguished Unmaking.

Food for thought.Minor point, but Fracture doesn't hit Uro, either.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[Reivaj]

I think there is one main question regarding the new cards. Which permanents commonly played in Legacy can be targeted by each one. Besides creatures (Vanishing verse) and colorless artifacts(Fracture), which planeswalker or enchantments are covered by one and not the other?
Only Teferi, Time raveler played on Miracles maybe?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Colorless isn't considered monocolored, right? That means Karn and Ugin aren't hit by verse?

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[H]

Colorless isn't considered monocolored, right? That means Karn and Ugin aren't hit by verse?

Correct, Monocolored means, in rules language, "exactly one Color" and Colorless means, in rules language, "exactly zero Colors" so Verse does unfortunately miss those things.

[Wilkin]

Essentially the Vanishing Verse would take up a spot in the sideboard. Just as another cheap removal spell (I usually have a 1 or 2 mana spell in that slot). Mostly for creatures, but in this case, Verse could hit a few other annoying things. Like Sylvan Library, etc.

Because there are some notable things it misses, I won't run it main. Unfortunately it's no Abrupt Decay or Assassin's Trophy.

The card I run atm in the board that Verse might replace is Liliana's Triumph. We'll see. Right now Triumph gets the edge over cards such as Path to Exile or Dismember because
1. I want an instant speed was of killing an Emrakul
2. Triumph has the potential of being a 2 for 1 card (If I have a Liliana in play).

But the black white removal cards are getting an upgrade.....just not quite good enough IMO. Would have been elated for a black white Assassin's Trophy. Would be tough saying goodbye to Vindicate though.

[Reeplcheep]

I have come around to the idea that vanishing verse doesn’t hit enough. Has anyone tried fracture yet? Between fracture and plow you cover ever single threat in the meta except Klothys, which is very nice in a deck without cantrips.It seems like it is the perfect sideboard card.


Bwangeroo , have you tried silverquill silencer ? Or is it still not good enough?

[bwangeroo]

I haven't tried Silverquill Silencer – I don't think it's really what Deadguy wants. It'd basically just be an aggressive beater in an otherwise not very aggressive deck. Especially in a Dark Rit build, you can't afford that many slots with white mana symbols. Plus the two-drop slot is already quite full and I don't think this is good enough to replace any two-drops we already play.

That being said, due in part to limited time I have a tendency to let theorycrafting get in the way of testing, so who knows, it could be good. I spent the longest time avoiding trying Kaya 3, Skyclave, basic Plains and Karakas due to mana considerations, but after having finally tried them I think they're all good.

ETA: I actually wonder if Silverquill Silencer would be good in a more creature-heavy build, featuring Vial, Mother of Runes, Sculler, Thalia. Most of those are humans too, so who knows, maybe stuff like Cavern and Thalia's Lieutenant as well. At that point it's not really Deadguy anymore, but could be an interesting direction.

[Clark Kant]

This list looks incredible...
https://twitter.com/ThrabenU/status/1386047144965156866/photo/1

Loving his content, just donated to Phil to get him to play a list I dub Naughty Ale...

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Hunted Horror
3 Eater of Days

2 Mother of Runes
4 Thoughtseize
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Reanimate
1 Night's Whisper

4 Dark Ritual
4 Dark Confidant
4 Hushbringer
4 Strict Proctor
3 Illusionary Mask (Torpor Orb only if Mask is still bugged on MTGO)
1 Scroll of Fate

2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Karakas
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Silent Clearing
4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Flooded Strand
1 Prismatic Vista

Sideboard (Was put together back when I was playing Enlightened Tutor maindeck):
1 Damping Sphere
1 Deafening Silence
1 Defense Grid
1 Spirit of the Labrynth
1 Chains of Mephistophleles/Leyline of the Void
1 Ratchet Bomb/Ethersworn Canonist
1 Grafdigger's Cage/Soul Guide Lantern
1 Rest in Peace
1 Serenity/Seal of Cleansing
1 Phyrexian Revoker/Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Leyline of Sanctity (Or some other card against burn)
1 Nihil Spellbomb/Relic of Progenitus
1 Ensnaring Bridge/Trinisphere/Stony Silence
1 Pithing Needle
1 Thorn of Amethyst/Tormod's Crypt/Null Rod
1 Engineered Plague

Its possible that the list needs more lands, or more disruption, looking forward to seeing how the deck performs.

[Clark Kant]

This is a great video with a cool direction to take Deadguy Ale using Witch...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=w1Oj0OlUHgY&t=9999s

Just hope the Naughty Ale list above performs this well.

[jonesypunk]

Hi Guys.

I'm going to play for the first time with the deck, I'm thinking of taking this, what do you think (specially the sideboard).
My idea is taking a very generic sideboard and use "Enlightened Tutor" to be "Generic Hate" search, because i don't know what decks i'll find.
Don't know if I'm analyzing correctly the deck, but it seams to me that he struggles against graveyard decks and Punishing Fire, but what about combo like "Dark Depths", or "Big Red".

Ideas? Thoughts?
Thanx


12 Creature
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Opposition Agent

18 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Thougthseise
4 Dark Ritual
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Fatal Push
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Lingering Souls
1 Kaya's Guile

8 OTHER SPELLS
1 Bitterblossom
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Kaya, Orzhov Usurper
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

22 LANDS
4 Scrubland
4 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Silent Clearing
4 Marsh Flats
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
3 Wasteland
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Karakas

SIDEBOARD
2 Vindicate
2 Plague Engineer
2 Containment Priest
1 Deafening Silence
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Rest in Peace
1 Oblivian Ring
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Swords to Plowshares

[Reeplcheep]

In what situations do you need the nuclear option of serenity as opposed to something like Stoney silence or seal of cleansing? It seems to have a bunch of friendly fire in your BB, batterskull, phrexian revolver deck.

[jonesypunk]

In what situations do you need the nuclear option of serenity as opposed to something like Stoney silence or seal of cleansing? It seems to have a bunch of friendly fire in your BB, batterskull, phrexian revolver deck.

True. I put it there because while searching my available options i found it and i remembered that a friend usually plays with Enchantress, but already replaced it with Oblivian Ring, it didn't make much sense to have a Serenity.

[Clark Kant]

Hi Guys.

I'm going to play for the first time with the deck, I'm thinking of taking this, what do you think (specially the sideboard).
My idea is taking a very generic sideboard and use "Enlightened Tutor" to be "Generic Hate" search, because i don't know what decks i'll find.

I absolutely love the idea of using Enlightened Tutor to grab hate cards sideboarded in, but I dont think it makes sense to have the E Tutor taking up valuable sideboard slots. This plan functions best in a list that can maindeck E Tutor because it has cards it wants to Tutor up in the maindeck as well.

Your idea helped me revise my Naughty Ale list to be much more consistent...

4 Thoughtseize
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Night's Whispers
1 Reanimate
1 Sevinne's Reclamation

4 Dark Confidant
2 Mother of Runes

3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Runed Halo
1 Oblivion Ring

Tutorable Combo - 9 of each half plus tutors
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Hunted Horror
1 Eater of Days
4 Hushbringer
2 Strict Proctor
1 Illusionary Mask
1 Torpor Orb
1 Scroll of Fate

21 Lands
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Karakas
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Silent Clearing
4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Prismatic Vista

Sideboard:
1 Damping Sphere
1 Deafening Silence
1 Defense Grid
1 Chains of Mephistophleles/Leyline of the Void
1 Ratchet Bomb/Ethersworn Canonist
1 Grafdigger's Cage/Soul Guide Lantern
1 Rest in Peace
1 Serenity/Seal of Cleansing
1 Sorcerous Spyglass/Null Rod
1 Leyline of Sanctity (Or some other card against burn)
1 Nihil Spellbomb/Relic of Progenitus
1 Ensnaring Bridge/Trinisphere/Stony Silence
1 Pithing Needle
1 Thorn of Amethyst/Tormod's Crypt
1 Engineered Plague

Universally useful cards like O Ring, Phyrexian Revoker and Runed Halo work well maindeck and can be tutored for when you really need to stop a combo deck or when you need to O Ring an Ensnaring Bridge or Chalice or something.

[Clark Kant]

The video for the above deck is up...

https://youtu.be/AQ3BwELMIBI

Glad to have donated for what was an incredibly fun to watch stream.

People are sleeping on Hushbringer and Dreadnought. Hushbringer is incidental hate against so much of the format (goblins, death and taxes, veteran explorer, academy rector, stitcher's supplier, emry, urza, thought-knot seer, doomsday/thassa's oracle, Snapcaster Mage etc).

Just an fyi but the list has evolved significantly from the list above that I first sent Phil. Like I had mentioned to Phil, the Mardu (Vaka Nought) version of the deck with a light red splash for Kroxa replacing Eater of Days is the stronger iteration of the deck. Kroxa is a far stronger card, with excellent utility even outside the combo unlike Eater of Days.

[Wilkin]

I'm not a fan of Enlightened tutor unless it's for a combo deck such as Painter's Servant or Helm of Obedience. Tutoring for a card, only for the new card to get countered really sucks.

I'd rather play more Sevinne's Reclamation in that build or a Liliana, the Last Hope.

[Wilkin]

Grief. My goodness that's a good card. A free thoughtseize. And apparently, the pitch evoke creature is a cycle. If the white one is any good, that would be nuts.

I picked up a playset of Ephemerate just in case, lol. Even if the white evoke creature isn't any good, I'm still gonna try ephemerate (just not as many). I think Reanimate main is good in a Grief deck build. You can either reanimate the creature you pick from your opponent or you can reanimate Grief to take another card. And who knows, if Ephemerate becomes a 4 of, Shriekmaw could make it back for me. :)

4 Grief
2 Ephemerate
2 Reanimate
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Skyclave Apparition
1 Plague Engineer
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of fire and ice
2 Vindicate
1 Cling to Dust
1 Kaya's Guile
2 Chrome Mox
4 Scrubland
3 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Castle Lochtwain
4 Marsh Flats
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland

[Mr. Safety]

If you end up including the white Evoke creature I don't think you can afford Chrome Mox anymore. That would be up to 10 cards in your deck that require an extra card for payment. It also depends on what the mana value of the white creature is due to the Dark Confidant interaction. Grief is already a 4-drop, a mana value you don't want too many of in a Bob deck. And you're playing Reanimate...the life loss is real with this one. We don't have the magical SDT to smooth all of this out.

[Clark Kant]

Good call on Grief and Ephermite.

If the white evoke creature ends up being as powerful as Grief, I don't think there would be any room for black as Elite Spellbinder already serves a similar role.

D and T might evolve into something like this...

Blinkers
4 Ephemerate
4 Charming Prince
4 Flickerwisp

Blinkees
4 Skyclave Apparition
4 Elite Spellbinder
4 Recruiter of the Guard
3 White MH2 Evoke Dude
1 Palace Jailer

Other
4 Aether Vial
1 Sanctum Prelate
2 Thalia
2 MoM

4 Wasteland
19 Lands

Shriekmaw and Grief as the only black cards that are synergistic with Ephermite isn't enough. White has way too many blinkees.

Something along those lines could be very effective.

It's would be a more powerful, more ETB focused Death and Taxes

[CRich3]

The Ephemerate synergy seems fun, but I don’t think it’s good enough to build around. Grief seems best in Esper Vial to me. They already have all the blinking cards.

I’m calling it now. If they make a white one if will give protection and will have flash.

[Ganfar]

I started lay some legacy again and started with this list:
https://scryfall.com/@Ganfar/decks/32fad0e6-1617-456d-887b-31e5980a533f

Opposition Agent with Dark Ritual seems great on paper but it's seems very low chance that, "I got you" moment.

I also feel the Dark Ritual is what DGA needs atm. It felt great to able to do 2 Rituals to Hyamn to Lilian of the veil.

Last Hope was great before and I would like to replace her with Kaya in main.

But I think the next plan when MH2 comes is deck that has:
4 Ephemerate
4 Grifes
4 Tidehollow Sculler

[Clark Kant]

Stoneforge Deadguy Ale just got a huge upgrade...

Kaldra Compleat {7}

Legendary Artifact — Equipment

Living Weapon

Indestructible

Equipped creature gets +5/+5 and has first strike, trample, indestructible, haste, and "Whenever this creature deals combat damage to a creature, exile that creature."

Equip {7}



Pairing it with Thoughtseize turn 1 to protect Stoneforge is going to do some damage.

[lavafrogg]

Stoneforge Deadguy Ale just got a huge upgrade...

Kaldra Compleat {7}

Legendary Artifact — Equipment

Living Weapon

Indestructible

Equipped creature gets +5/+5 and has first strike, trample, indestructible, haste, and "Whenever this creature deals combat damage to a creature, exile that creature."

Equip {7}



Pairing it with Thoughtseize turn 1 to protect Stoneforge is going to do some damage.

And the new unblockable 3/2 leyline that has upside of casting a free emrakul

[aedemiel]

... that has upside of casting a free emrakul
Completely missed that. It does cast Emmy and Grisel for free...

[CRich3]

I'm probably late, but I just found out Solitude Kills Emrakul. Any suggestions on dealing with all the card disadvantage?

[FTW]

Esper Sentinel seems good. It also happens to deal with the card disadvantage, and it's the kind of proactive turn 1 play that benefits from Unmasking them first.

Taxing the opponent could make it easier to get away with Ephemerate shenanigans too. Also imagine opponent shooting removal at Esper Sentinel and paying the tax, only to have you spend 1 mana on Ephemerate.



//Spells: 14
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Ephemerate
1 Reanimate
1 Cling to Dust
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Vindicate

//Creatures: 17
4 Esper Sentinel
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Skyclave Apparition
4 Grief
1 Solitude

//Artifacts: 3
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

//Planeswalkers: 4
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Kaya, Orzhov Usurper

//Lands: 22
4 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
3 Prismatic Vista
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Karakas


No idea if 2/2 or 3/1 split of Ephemerate + Reanimate is better. Both play similar roles in rebuying ETB abilities, insulating card engines from removal, and making permanent Grief.

There could be an argument to run Sword of Light and Shadow to gain back life, rebuy value creatures, and protect from removal. 2nd Sword makes it easier to buff Sentinel too.

Edit: Don't know if this has been covered already, but with Evoked Grief you choose the order of the triggers. Stack the discard one on top. That lets you see their hand and discard something before deciding what to do.
e.g. T1 evoke Grief. Look at opponent's hand and discard their counter or removal. With sacrifice on the stack, after seeing the coast is clear, cast Ephemerate on Grief. Grief ETBs again discarding their best card. Also 3/2 Menace. Go.
T2 if they didn't find an answer, rebound. Follow up with SFM, Bob, Hymn etc... typical DGA 2 mana plays. Should be far ahead by this point.

The other good Grief opener is with Esper Sentinel. Depending on the matchup you can either Evoke first to get rid of their answer for Sentinel, or you can play Sentinel first so you draw a card if they try to protect their hand from Grief (Force, Veil, etc).

[Wilkin]

Esper Sentinel seems good. It also happens to deal with the card disadvantage, and it's the kind of proactive turn 1 play that benefits from Unmasking them first.

Taxing the opponent could make it easier to get away with Ephemerate shenanigans too. Also imagine opponent shooting removal at Esper Sentinel and paying the tax, only to have you spend 1 mana on Ephemerate.



//Spells: 14
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Ephemerate
1 Reanimate
1 Cling to Dust
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Vindicate

//Creatures: 17
4 Esper Sentinel
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Skyclave Apparition
4 Grief
1 Solitude

//Artifacts: 3
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

//Planeswalkers: 4
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Kaya, Orzhov Usurper

//Lands: 22
4 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
3 Prismatic Vista
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Karakas


No idea if 2/2 or 3/1 split of Ephemerate + Reanimate is better. Both play similar roles in rebuying ETB abilities, insulating card engines from removal, and making permanent Grief.

There could be an argument to run Sword of Light and Shadow to gain back life, rebuy value creatures, and protect from removal. 2nd Sword makes it easier to buff Sentinel too.

Edit: Don't know if this has been covered already, but with Evoked Grief you choose the order of the triggers. Stack the discard one on top. That lets you see their hand and discard something before deciding what to do.
e.g. T1 evoke Grief. Look at opponent's hand and discard their counter or removal. With sacrifice on the stack, after seeing the coast is clear, cast Ephemerate on Grief. Grief ETBs again discarding their best card. Also 3/2 Menace. Go.
T2 if they didn't find an answer, rebound. Follow up with SFM, Bob, Hymn etc... typical DGA 2 mana plays. Should be far ahead by this point.

The other good Grief opener is with Esper Sentinel. Depending on the matchup you can either Evoke first to get rid of their answer for Sentinel, or you can play Sentinel first so you draw a card if they try to protect their hand from Grief (Force, Veil, etc).

Nice.

Forgot about Esper Sentinel. Don't know that last time there were so many good cards available for Deadguy in a single set. Grief. Dauthi Voidwalker. Sudden Edict. Esper Sentinel. etc.

Tweaked my Deadguy list to incorporate Dauthi Voidwalker. Had to cut Hero of Bladehold to do it. Felt like betraying a friend, lol.


4 Bob
4 Dauthi Voidwalker
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Plague Engineer
1 Gurmag Angler

3 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, that Last Hope
1 Helm of Obedience
2 Lingering Souls
2 Vindicate
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
3 Chrome Mox

4 Scrubland, 3 Swamp, 1 Plains, 7 fetches, 4 wasteland, 1 Karakas, 1 Castle Lochtwain

Voidwalker is nuts. So you can cast an Emrakul for free if it's one of the cards exiled with a counter on it. wow. So it's an evasion creature. With a Leyline of the Void on it so you can helm them.


Thought about Grief as well. But IMHO you have to dedicate more to make that work, adding Ephemerate and other creatures that flicker for fun times. Welcome back Shriekmaw? :)

[lavafrogg]

Nice.

Forgot about Esper Sentinel. Don't know that last time there were so many good cards available for Deadguy in a single set. Grief. Dauthi Voidwalker. Sudden Edict. Esper Sentinel. etc.

Tweaked my Deadguy list to incorporate Dauthi Voidwalker. Had to cut Hero of Bladehold to do it. Felt like betraying a friend, lol.


4 Bob
4 Dauthi Voidwalker
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Plague Engineer
1 Gurmag Angler

3 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, that Last Hope
1 Helm of Obedience
2 Lingering Souls
2 Vindicate
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
3 Chrome Mox

4 Scrubland, 3 Swamp, 1 Plains, 7 fetches, 4 wasteland, 1 Karakas, 1 Castle Lochtwain

Voidwalker is nuts. So you can cast an Emrakul for free if it's one of the cards exiled with a counter on it. wow. So it's an evasion creature. With a Leyline of the Void on it so you can helm them.


Thought about Grief as well. But IMHO you have to dedicate more to make that work, adding Ephemerate and other creatures that flicker for fun times. Welcome back Shriekmaw? :)

I think sentinel might also be worth a 4 of as when equipped it makes the tax much more likely to go through.

Like you said, too many good cards in one set

[CRich3]

I'm trying to put together a decklist so I know what to trade for when MH2 comes out in paper. I have way to many questions. Someone really should put together an updated primer.

[Clark Kant]

With all the amazing creatures...

Esper Sentinel
Voidwalker
Grief

I would be tempted to jam them all alongside Thalia and Vial and maybe even Mom for a Black and Taxes list.

Wasteland and Sinkhole work great with Sentinel and Thalia. Urborg let's Karakas and Wasteland tap for black.

The sideboard could play both Leyline and Helm to truly hate out graveyards while providing an alternative win con (might even warrant a maindeck Karn or two).

[Wilkin]

With all the amazing creatures...

Esper Sentinel
Voidwalker
Grief

I would be tempted to jam them all alongside Thalia and Vial and maybe even Mom for a Black and Taxes list.

Wasteland and Sinkhole work great with Sentinel and Thalia. Urborg let's Karakas and Wasteland tap for black.

The sideboard could play both Leyline and Helm to truly hate out graveyards while providing an alternative win con (might even warrant a maindeck Karn or two).

Yeah with all the exciting new cards you really could have really different builds of deadguy ale.

-a more creature value based deck. Grief. Ephemerate. Reanimate etc. That may use aether vial.
-a combo based version around helm of obedience, leyline , rest in peace and the new toy dauthi voidwalker.
-a hybrid of classic dead guy and either of previous 2 versions.
-a human version now that esper sentinel gives you even more card draw or an artifact based version.

[Ganfar]

I played three matched with this deck yesterday:
1 Batterskull
4 Dark Confidant
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Windswept Heath
4 Ephemerate
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Wasteland
4 Thoughtseize
4 Grief
1 Karakas
1 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Silent Clearing
3 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Marsh Flats
2 Charming Prince
2 Solitude
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Scrubland
4 Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
2 Fracture
2 Serenity (This was added later because of the new meta)
2 Sudden Edict
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Plague Engineer
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
https://scryfall.com/@Ganfar/decks/3d660d2c-5687-4fdb-88b1-0f5b944361bd

Turn 1 play with Ephemerate and Grief are SUPER strong. I was able to destroy a good 7 hands from my opponent to discard 3 of their cards. Ephemerate is very good against the removal and we get an extra trigger from most of my creatures.

One of the nasty plays was to attack with Grief and my opponent played Bolt on it, in response I played Ephemerate on Greif and took this only card left in the hand.

Recruiter of the Guard can get all the creatures and sick value with Prince and Ephemerate.

i had a lot of fun with the deck and I want to play more games to see what this can do.

[Wilkin]

Tested Dauthi Voidwalker in a dedicated Black green Helm deck and in a black white Deadguy with 1 helm in main, 1 in board.

Never drew Helm in deadguy to win. It was usually a dead weight card there, so taking it out main. Leaving 1 in board since I also have Leyline in board and for matchups where creatures can't attack through (ie. ensnaring bridge).

Voidwalker is great in a dedicated combo deck. 2 mana is a lot easier to cast then 4 for Leyline.

Walker is pretty sick with tap ability. Got to cast an Ulamog with it. Still gonna keep it in Deadguy for now.

[CRich3]

What’s the game plan for UR delver? They have a lot of early game threats and card advantage. They almost never miss their t1 creature with backup.

[Wilkin]

What’s the game plan for UR delver? They have a lot of early game threats and card advantage. They almost never miss their t1 creature with backup.

At the moment I have 2 sudden edict in board. May try a prismatic ending too.

Yeah it pretty nuts they now could run 12 1 drops (although I'm not sure they go the full playset of all 3).

[KobeBryan]

What’s the game plan for UR delver? They have a lot of early game threats and card advantage. They almost never miss their t1 creature with backup.

Play UR delver.

[Mr. Safety]

What’s the game plan for UR delver? They have a lot of early game threats and card advantage. They almost never miss their t1 creature with backup.

It seems outdated now, but my answer used to be Lingering Souls. It isn't efficient mana-wise, but as far as value it really taxes their removal and clogs up the board, especially in the air.

[bwangeroo]

I think Engineered Explosives could be good out of the sideboard right now as well. If Delver is on 12 1-drops then EE has a better chance of being a 2-for-1 or better. Also great against Affinity which has seen an uptick (bye bye all Urza's Saga Construct tokens).

[Reeplcheep]

I think Engineered Explosives could be good out of the sideboard right now as well. If Delver is on 12 1-drops then EE has a better chance of being a 2-for-1 or better. Also great against Affinity which has seen an uptick (bye bye all Urza's Saga Construct tokens).

If EE is good, isn't prismatic even better? Isn't tempo not CA the problem?

[CRich3]

If EE is good, isn't prismatic even better? Isn't tempo not CA the problem?

Unfortunately against UR delver it’s both. If I try to go 1 for 1 then I eventually lose to their card draw. So far I’ve been having my best luck with the standard Stoneforge Dark Confidant list. Want to try a Voidwalker list but I only have 1 at the moment. Also want to try Tourach.

[Cire]

I've been fooling around with the following - no real testing yet to tell you of any ups or downs, but I had slept on Prismatic Ending and completely misjudged it - its a good card.

4 BoB
4 SFM
4 Esper Sentinel
3 Voidwalker

4 STP
4 Prismatic Ending
4 Thought Seize
4 Hymn
4 Dark Ritual
3 Surgical Extraction

1 Kaldra
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte
4 Chrome Mox

4 Wasteland
4 Marshland
1 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea (for prismatic ending)
1 Plateau (for prismatic ending)

[Wilkin]

I've been fooling around with the following - no real testing yet to tell you of any ups or downs, but I had slept on Prismatic Ending and completely misjudged it - its a good card.

4 BoB
4 SFM
4 Esper Sentinel
3 Voidwalker

4 STP
4 Prismatic Ending
4 Thought Seize
4 Hymn
4 Dark Ritual
3 Surgical Extraction

1 Kaldra
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte
4 Chrome Mox

4 Wasteland
4 Marshland
1 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea (for prismatic ending)
1 Plateau (for prismatic ending)

Interesting list. But what surgical extraction mainly for? Uro? Perhaps cling to dust may be better?

[bwangeroo]

If EE is good, isn't prismatic even better? Isn't tempo not CA the problem?

I mean I'm trying out 2 prismatic ending as well in the sb, and 1 EE. But as CRich3 said both tempo + CA are an issue. They start out with a lot of virtual CA – they can operate on fewer lands, they have higher consistency due to cantrips. Then there's the actual CA – Expressive Iteration, potential Ragavan hits, potential Adventures, the whale. So just 1-for-1ing the entire game doesn't get you there. You need defensive bombs as well to keep up.

[Cire]

Interesting list. But what surgical extraction mainly for? Uro? Perhaps cling to dust may be better?

Pretty much - and other problem cards I don't like seeing - it's definitely a flex spot.

Also - definitely try Kaldra alongside Batterskull and Jittee if you're running SFM. The 7 hurts with BoB but that's a small percentage for the huge beater. Kaldra's haste is really unexpected and great - moreover it eats into their STP targets as the usual artifact hate doesn't stop it. Most people waste their STPs for your CA engine, BOB, or even Voidwalker (since you can strip and play bombs off him) and then Kaldra comes in and sweeps.

[CRich3]

I went back to the older list. I've had more success playing more of a control/midrange game. I want to replace dark ritual also, but it has been very useful vs combo. Vanishing Verse has been great vs opposing Kaldra's killing off the germ and Fracture + Damn has helped a lot vs the new affinity decks. Also went 3/2 split with Thoughtseize/Duress because I'm not as concerned with creatures as I am with card draw and counters. Right now I'm just testing if I should cut Dark Ritual or not.


// Lands: 22
6 Swamp
4 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Scrubland
2 Silent Clearing
4 Wasteland

// Creatures: 12
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
4 Opposition Agent

// Other: 26
4 Dark Ritual
2 Fatal Push
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Damn
3 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Kaya's Guile
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Batterskull
1 Kaldra Complete
1 Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard: 15
2 Necromentia
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Plague Engineer
3 Fracture
3 Rest in Peace
1 Liliana's Triumph
1 Kaya's Guile
2 Vanishing Verse

[Ganfar]

I've been fooling around with the following - no real testing yet to tell you of any ups or downs, but I had slept on Prismatic Ending and completely misjudged it - its a good card.

4 BoB
4 SFM
4 Esper Sentinel
3 Voidwalker

4 STP
4 Prismatic Ending
4 Thought Seize
4 Hymn
4 Dark Ritual
3 Surgical Extraction

1 Kaldra
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte
4 Chrome Mox

4 Wasteland
4 Marshland
1 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea (for prismatic ending)
1 Plateau (for prismatic ending)
I think to have both Mox and Dark Ritual in the same DGA list are too much.

I have played both in two different build and I have to say that I like Dark Riutal better. It's more explosive and don't require you to lose one of your other cards in you hand.

[CptHaddock]

I've been fooling around with the following - no real testing yet to tell you of any ups or downs, but I had slept on Prismatic Ending and completely misjudged it - its a good card.

4 BoB
4 SFM
4 Esper Sentinel
3 Voidwalker

4 STP
4 Prismatic Ending
4 Thought Seize
4 Hymn
4 Dark Ritual
3 Surgical Extraction

1 Kaldra
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte
4 Chrome Mox

4 Wasteland
4 Marshland
1 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea (for prismatic ending)
1 Plateau (for prismatic ending)

15 lands (19 with mox) is too few.


I think to have both Mox and Dark Ritual in the same DGA list are too much.

I have played both in two different build and I have to say that I like Dark Riutal better. It's more explosive and don't require you to lose one of your other cards in you hand.

You're down a card when you cast ritual too, the card itself doesn't do anything, it just produces mana. The reason to play ritual now is that the format is very low to the ground now and you have to both be able to answer your opponent's threats or present an threat of equal caliber.

[Wilkin]

Alright. Switched to an Opposition agent/Dark ritual build. In part to switch things up. Plus, I feel lots of people are packing artifact hate and didn't want my Chrome Moxes to die from the splash damage.

4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Opposition Agent
1 Plague Engineer
1 Gurmag Angler
1 Remorseful Cleric
1 Dauthi Voidwalker
1 Skyclave Apparition

3 Thoughtseize
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Vindicate
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Kaldra Compleat
1 Batterskull
2 Lingering Souls
4 Dark Ritual

4 Scrubland
4 Swamp
1 PLains
1 Karakas
1 Castle Lochtwain
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta

Side: 3 Leyline of the Void, 1 Leyline of Sanctity, 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, 1 Kaya, Orzhov Usurper, 1 Liliana, the Last Hope, 2 Sudden Edict, 1 Humility, 1 Toxic Deluge, 1 Serenity, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Nihil Spellbomb

-Yes, the Maindeck is 61 cards. Couldn't find what to cut. I already cut out the Hero of Bladehold so that hurt enough as it is :)

-the Remorseful Cleric and Dauthi Voidwalker are concessions to graveyard shenanigans. It's crazy to think that with all the abilities of the Voidwalker that it's still very meh. I have lived the dream of dark ritual, voidwalker, thoughtseize.....oh Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger. I'll take that to cast on turn 2. I do like that it's pretty much unblockable. But yeah, it's still just an ok creature. Maybe when etb, if it also exiled the opponent's graveyard, then it would be pretty insane.

-Kaldra Compleat is awesome vs non-white decks. In combo matchups being able to beat down with this guy is so much faster than Batterskull. And with Dark Rituals, it is realisitic to reequip or hard cast it. Flipping it to Bob sucks ,lol. Also having 2 of my 3 equipment being living weapons is nice in the face of more null rods.

-Having the Opposition Agent and Dark Ritual is pretty sweet turn 1. A way to possibly mana screw an opponent is nice and goes along great with the wastelands and Vindicate. Some searches are may though which sucks. An opponent had a Curse of Misfortunes out. It's a may search. Couldn't get one for me to give to opponent. But at least I'm getting killed by any either.

-Lingering Souls are a bit worse since it's only really Jitte I can equip to easily.

-the singleton Skyclave Apparition has been a house. Haven't really had the chance to recur it with Liliana, the Last Hope yet. And the token Skyclave leaves behind hasn't been an issue so far.

-I do miss being able to cast Stoneforge or Thalia turn 1. But the card disadvantage of Mox adds up plus with all the artifact hate creeping in, I feel not to get hit extra hard by it.


The FNM i went to was a disaster of mana flooding. Online it's been ok. Haven't lived the dream of casting Opposition Agent vs a Doomsday opponent yet.

[Valech]

I was so excited about Grief and possibly shenanigans with Cloud shift/ephemerate. Ain´t they worth playing?

[Wilkin]

I was so excited about Grief and possibly shenanigans with Cloud shift/ephemerate. Ain´t they worth playing?

Certainly worth giving it a shot. Haven't tried it yet as I only have 2 Grief atm. I really like Malakir Rebirth in that deck since it can be a land if you need it to be.

Haven't seen much of it online. Played against it a few times. Can be annoying but hard to say if it better than other versions of Dead guy.

[Valech]

Certainly worth giving it a shot. Haven't tried it yet as I only have 2 Grief atm. I really like Malakir Rebirth in that deck since it can be a land if you need it to be.

Haven't seen much of it online. Played against it a few times. Can be annoying but hard to say if it better than other versions of Dead guy.

Village Rites and Undying evil are cards to consider too, if you wanna abuse grief

[Reeplcheep]

Prismatic ending is insane, especially in a deck without cantrips. You should definitely add a splash for a 3rd colour as above.

[Wilkin]

Prismatic ending is insane, especially in a deck without cantrips. You should definitely add a splash for a 3rd colour as above.

Thanks, Prismatic Ending is a card I'm considering. Bit leery of stretching out mana base to 3 colors though.

Another on the short list is more Skyclave Apparition. A card that answers most of the cards in Legacy and is a creature that can hit for 2, wear equipment and can come back with Liliana, the Last Hope.

[Schmullan]

I have been playing around Junk Dead Guy Ale build with Mox Diamond builds. The Moxes does not only help with the strict mana requirements of the green splash, it also has some great synergy with Prismatic Ending and Urza's Saga. Mox Diamond is a 0 costing artifact that both pumps the Sage Construts and is something you can grab when the sage hits it's final stage. I've also been able to use Prismatic Ending to get rid of troublesome 4+ cmc permanents very consistently.

I have always preferred Moxes over Dark Ritual mainly because it is a temp advantage that sticks around. I also feel like moxes gives you more versatility compared to Dark Ritual. Moxes allows you leverage the power of your white cards such as Thalia and SFM on turn one, but it can also allow you to check the opponents hand with a discard spell and then decide if you wanna keep up mana for a removal spell on their turn or maybe play a wasteland instead.

It might seem a bit strange to run 8 colorless lands in a deck that is quite color intense but if you count the Moxes as tri-lands you will find that the list is running 18 black sources, 15 white sources and 12 green sources and thus a quite stable manabase.


Creature (13)
4x Dark Confidant
4x Dauthi Voidwalker
1x Spirit of the Labyrinth
4x Stoneforge Mystic


Land (24)
4x Marsh Flats
2x Verdant Catacombs
2x Scrubland
1x Bayou
1x Savannah
3x Swamp
1x Plains
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Karakas
4x Urza's Saga
4x Wasteland

Artifact (9)
1x Batterskull
1x Kaldra Compleat
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
4x Mox Diamond
1x Pithing Needle
1x Shadowspear

Planeswalker (1)
1x Kaya, Orzhov Usurper

Enchantment (1)
1x Sylvan Library

Sorcery (8)
1x Life from the Loam
3x Prismatic Ending
4x Thoughtseize

Instant (4)
2x Swords to Plowshares
2x Sudden Edict

Sideboard(15)
4x Leyline of the Void
2x Dark Blast
2x Necromentia
2x Deafning Silence
2x Choke
1x Life from the Loan
2x Void Mirror

[Valech]

I have always preferred Moxes over Dark Ritual mainly because it is a temp advantage that sticks around. I also feel like moxes gives you more versatility compared to Dark Ritual. Moxes allows you leverage the power of your white cards such as Thalia and SFM on turn one, but it can also allow you to check the opponents hand with a discard spell and then decide if you wanna keep up mana for a removal spell on their turn or maybe play a wasteland instead.


I tried a List similar to yours and liked it a lot. I cut down on the Dauthi Voidwalkers tho and I don´t find Kaya to be very impactful.
My main concern however is the mox diamonds. I rarely find myself in the position to gladly discard a land card. I ran chrome mox instead cause you can still tutor it as a pump for the constructs without having to use the imprint mechanic.
I understand that mox diamond gives you more reach with prismatic ending. I understand that you can get lands back with Lftl. I still am not convinced.

Secondly, I think dark rituals are only good with opposition agents.

[Amatsu666]

Hey, recently started playing again, mostly with friends in lgs, they play legacy and ive been wanting to try it out for a while, i played pox a long long time ago. This time ive been wanting to go with deadguy, im on a budget but ive gotten some of the basics.

Also the legacy scene seems pretty chill around here, with some people being a lil more casual about it, and its common for people to play decks that arent t1.

So far got

4x stoneforge
4x dark confidants

1x kaldra compleat
1x batterskull
1x jitte

2x lilianas of the veil

1x bitterblossom (got another one laying around)

4x inquisition of koz
4x swords
2x hymns
4x dark rituals

Dont have fetches but got 1 scrubland

This is roughly what i have atm, and wanted to finish it on a small budget just to start playing, is there anyway you could give me a hand, cant really afford thoughtseizes and fetches right away. I will eventualy keep upgrading it.

Thanks

[Wilkin]

Some budget-ish options

-Gurmag Angler. Because of Bob, you should only really run 1. I still find it great, being able to sometimes cast something and this guy in the same turn.
-Lingering Souls. I'd say it's much worse now than it's ever been. But it's still ok.
-Tourach, Dread Cantor. Since you are running a Dark Ritual build I'd consider running at least 1. With some decks, the removal of choice is Swords to Plowshares and Prismatic Ending, which Tourach laughs at.
-Dauthi Voidwalker. Not as great as I thought it would be. But it's ok. I have lived the dream and dark ritual Thoughtseize and grabbed an Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger.
-Opposition Agent. Since you are running a Dark Ritual build, IMHO you need to run him. At least 2. Being able to stifle an opponent turn 1 is sweet plus you get a land out of it, which can even help out Prismatic Ending if you run it.
-Castle Lochtwain. I'd run only 1. But it's awesome. A land that taps for B, usually comes into play untapped and is card advantage.
-Plague Engineer. Pretty bad vs Urza's saga decks. But super awesome vs Elves and Death and Taxes. Ok vs Blue red Delver.
-Liliana, the Last Hope. A threat that can recur your creatures. It's not great though, currently I'm only running 1.
-Prismatic Ending. Early game it can snag a Ragavan or an Aether Vial. If you splash a badlands (or Tri land, another dual etc.) you can get rid of most relevant cards in legacy. Plus, if you run Opposition Agents you could get the extra colors of mana you need.

Lol, and I guess if you want to go with some of my signature classics, you could try Shriekmaw or Hero of Bladehold :)

[jmlima]

Is this below even remotely competitive in an open environment like MTGO, or is it just pants:

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/4254039#online

[Reeplcheep]

The style of list you posted (pox splash SFM) is definitely the most successful pox-adjacent decks and will usually have a 5-0 once a month or so. Much better than traditional legends pox, pox splash karn, pox splash loam or pox splash kroxa.

My only qualm is that it doesn’t go far enough. It will be viable but it won’t feel great. Dark ritual isn’t particularly good at casting 2 drops like bob and sfm. Prismatic ending is amazing for non-blue control decks but you would really want 3 colours.

If you like dark ritual into big threat, then you will eventually end up at something like my curses deck.

If you like t1 bob into grind, you will eventually end up wanting Mox Diamond which turns you into junk loam. This has been doing quite well: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-abzan-loam#paper

You don’t have to run the whole gsz/KOTR package, but I do think you would want to cut dark ritual/rider/Sofai/Liliana for mox diamond/loam/sagas/shadowspear/ending

[jmlima]

...
If you like t1 bob into grind, you will eventually end up wanting Mox Diamond which turns you into junk ...

Thanks for the comments.

Interesting you mentioned junk as I actually had also looked into the two lists below (not of the mox diamond/loam/sagas/shadowspear/ending variety).

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=29044&d=428842
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=31156&d=442120&f=LE

Again, thanks for the thoughts! I can see what you mean.

[Reeplcheep]

If you want to keep it closer to your original deck, you could probably get away with just crucibles instead of loams, ending instead of rider and mox diamond instead of dark ritual. 4 Mox should be enough to support ending on 3 drops. A straight WB build makes it more reasonable to run sagas, which imo should be in every fair non-blue deck.
Retrofitter foundry is great with equipment and shadowspear is better than sofai.

[Reeplcheep]

This would be mox diamond/saga based build of your deck that I think would feel more powerful:
The main thoughts are just that Mox Diamond is better at t1 hymn/bob/SFM, and saga and wasteland are powerful cards for non blue decks. Only running 2 colours lets you support these 8 strong colourless lands.


Spells: 14
4 Swords
3 Ending
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn

Permanents: 20
4 Mox Diamond
2 Crucible
4 SFM
4 Bob
1 jitte
1 Bskull
1 Kaldra
1 Shadowspear
1 Retrofitter foundry
1 Nihil Spellbomb

Lands: 26
4 Urza’s Saga
4 Wasteland
2 Plains
6 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Karakas
2 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats

[jmlima]

Thanks, all the info is much appreciated, plenty to mull about in there!

[Reeplcheep]

Thanks, all the info is much appreciated, plenty to mull about in there!

One thing to note that might not be obvious: 26 lands is the absolute minimum for mox diamond, because mox diamond does literally nothing in a 1 lander and is the same as a lotus petal in a 2 lander hand. It really needs a 3 land hand to shine (because it lets you go 2 mana into 3 mana).

[jmlima]

One thing to note that might not be obvious: 26 lands is the absolute minimum for mox diamond, because mox diamond does literally nothing in a 1 lander and is the same as a lotus petal in a 2 lander hand. It really needs a 3 land hand to shine (because it lets you go 2 mana into 3 mana).

Thanks. I'll need to proxy this to test it first, those sagas cost a pretty penny...

[Zupponn]

Some Redguy Ale anyone? Now featuring Comet!

Creatures:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Dauthi Voidwalker
1 Tourach, Dread Cantor
1 Opposition Agent

Spells:
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Prismatic Ending
2 Hidetsugu Consumes All
2 Comet, Stellar Pup
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Kaldra Compleat
1 Batterskull

Lands:
4 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland
3 Swamp
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Badlands
2 Scrubland
1 Castle Locthwain
1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Silent Clearing


Sideboard:
2 Pyroblast
2 Deafening Silence
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Plague Engineer
2 Serenity
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Opposition Agent
1 Ashiok, Dream Render
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Faerie Macabre


I've been having some decent success at my local Legacy FNMs with this list and thought I'd share. The Space Doggie has been really good in a super grindy deck like this one and the only cards I'm not 100% on right now are the Hidetsugus in the main and the Liliana in the side. Both have been either very good or middling depending on the situation.

[Wilkin]

Only played a little bit of late. LOL, didn't miss much. Initiative decks are too much for deadguy ale to deal with, imho. Played a couple times vs it, and it's miserable. Got a game with a turn 1 thoughtseize, turn 2 Liliana of the Veil. Almost got another with Tourach, Dread Cantor until Karakas showed up. Maybe when/if I get my sideboard cards in, I'll see if that helps much.

Switched from a Dark Ritual/Opposition Agent build back into a Chrome Mox/more removal build. Also took out Lingering Souls and Cabal Therapy. Souls doesn't do much vs Initiative really and it only ok vs Delver decks. Decided to go with overloading on removal and moved the 2 Sudden Edicts from sideboard to main.

4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Skyclave Apparition
1 Dauthi Voidwalker
1 Tourach, Dread Cantor
1 Sheoldred, the Apocalypse
1 Plague Engineer
1 Gurmag Angler
1 Lion Sash

4 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sudden Edict
1 Karn's Sylex
1 Kaya's Guile
1 Batterskull
1 Kaldra Compleat
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Chrome Mox

4 Scrubland
3 Swamp
1 PLains
1 Karakas
1 Castle Lochtwain
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire

3 Leyline of the Void, 1 Helm of Obedience, 2 Serenity,1 Nihil Spellbomb, 1 Toxic Deluge, 1 Virtue's Ruin, 1 Black Knight, 1 Torpor Orb, 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, 1 Humility, 1 Leyline of Sanctity


Went 2-2 at FNM. Beat Naya Depths and Cloudpost. Lost to Miracles and Initiative.
Highlights and low lights:
-Trying out a Kaya's Guile out again. Got to Kill a Knight of the Reliquary and exile their GY. Guile replaced a Murderous Rider so it kinda did the same job.
-punted vs Miracles. Was so concerned what was in opponent GY that I could have exiled some of my things in my GY with Lion Sash and it could have gotten big enough to win.
-Dread Cantor is good vs White Initiative....until they draw Karakas. LOL, if it was my Unlimited Black Knight it might have been enough to win. Party like it's 1995.
-Assembled Dauthi Voidwalker/Helm combo vs Cloudpost.
-Faced the Cosmo pup. Pretty good card, but realistically any 4 mana walker at that point from Miracles would have been game over for me.
-didn't face against Minsc and Boo from Naya Depths. Managed to kill all their creatures and then mana screwed them in game 3.
-Got Sheoldred vs CLoudpost. Did some damage. Currently in the Hero of Bladehold slot. Lol, we'll see if Sheoldred is able to outperform Hero for me. Pretty big shoes to fill. :)
-Trying out a Singleton Karn's Sylex. Reasoning is that it's removal that can sometimes be disruption in stopping fetchlands and making some cards worse like Force of Will, Snuff Out etc.
Yes, it affects my Fetches too but hopefully when I play it, it affects opponent more.

[Notion Thief]

Only played a little bit of late. LOL, didn't miss much. Initiative decks are too much for deadguy ale to deal with, imho. Played a couple times vs it, and it's miserable. Got a game with a turn 1 thoughtseize, turn 2 Liliana of the Veil. Almost got another with Tourach, Dread Cantor until Karakas showed up. Maybe when/if I get my sideboard cards in, I'll see if that helps much.

Switched from a Dark Ritual/Opposition Agent build back into a Chrome Mox/more removal build. Also took out Lingering Souls and Cabal Therapy. Souls doesn't do much vs Initiative really and it only ok vs Delver decks. Decided to go with overloading on removal and moved the 2 Sudden Edicts from sideboard to main.

4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Skyclave Apparition
1 Dauthi Voidwalker
1 Tourach, Dread Cantor
1 Sheoldred, the Apocalypse
1 Plague Engineer
1 Gurmag Angler
1 Lion Sash

4 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sudden Edict
1 Karn's Sylex
1 Kaya's Guile
1 Batterskull
1 Kaldra Compleat
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Chrome Mox

4 Scrubland
3 Swamp
1 PLains
1 Karakas
1 Castle Lochtwain
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire

3 Leyline of the Void, 1 Helm of Obedience, 2 Serenity,1 Nihil Spellbomb, 1 Toxic Deluge, 1 Virtue's Ruin, 1 Black Knight, 1 Torpor Orb, 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, 1 Humility, 1 Leyline of Sanctity


Went 2-2 at FNM. Beat Naya Depths and Cloudpost. Lost to Miracles and Initiative.
Highlights and low lights:
-Trying out a Kaya's Guile out again. Got to Kill a Knight of the Reliquary and exile their GY. Guile replaced a Murderous Rider so it kinda did the same job.
-punted vs Miracles. Was so concerned what was in opponent GY that I could have exiled some of my things in my GY with Lion Sash and it could have gotten big enough to win.
-Dread Cantor is good vs White Initiative....until they draw Karakas. LOL, if it was my Unlimited Black Knight it might have been enough to win. Party like it's 1995.
-Assembled Dauthi Voidwalker/Helm combo vs Cloudpost.
-Faced the Cosmo pup. Pretty good card, but realistically any 4 mana walker at that point from Miracles would have been game over for me.
-didn't face against Minsc and Boo from Naya Depths. Managed to kill all their creatures and then mana screwed them in game 3.
-Got Sheoldred vs CLoudpost. Did some damage. Currently in the Hero of Bladehold slot. Lol, we'll see if Sheoldred is able to outperform Hero for me. Pretty big shoes to fill. :)
-Trying out a Singleton Karn's Sylex. Reasoning is that it's removal that can sometimes be disruption in stopping fetchlands and making some cards worse like Force of Will, Snuff Out etc.
Yes, it affects my Fetches too but hopefully when I play it, it affects opponent more.

I dig the Karn's Sylex tech. Might try that out of the board. Ive been on a sedgemoor/chain of smog list, but I think ill go back to voidwalker/helm. Also a fan of chrome mox over ritual these days, and have had to give up on lingering souls, which im sad to see go.

Ive been splashing a singleton badlands for prismatic ending reach, which lets me bring in pyroblasts (and a couple spicy deflecting palms for those depths, burn, and eldrazi players) from the board. Im not sure its "good" but it sure is fun to pull off, especially when theyre depending on a sylvan safekeeper to protect the win.

List

4 scrubland
4 marsh flats
3 verdant catacombs
1 karakas
3 swamp
3 plains
1 badlands
1 castle lochtwain
2 silent clearing

4 dark Confidant
4 stoneforge mystic
4 dauthi voidwalker
3 sedgemoor witch
1 opposition agent

4 thoughtseize
4 swords to plowshares
4 Dark Ritual
2 hymn to tourach
2 prismatic ending
3 chain of smog

1 kaldra compleat
1 sword of war and peace
1 blade of the oni

SB
1 deafening silence
3 pyroblast
3 deflecting palm
2 plague engineer
1 opposition agent
1 batterskull
3 vampire hexmage
1 hymn to tourach

List needs some work, and probably need to pick up wastelands on magic online still, but when it's firing on all cylinders it can deal with a lot of threats and win in a hurry. I kind of wish there was a good way to give my voidwalkers vigilance (besides batterskull) so i could attack and still pop them for an emergency exiled spell, but the equipment that gives that isnt very good otherwise.

Im not sure i like the sedge/smog combo better than dauthi/helm, but the witches are a good sticky evasive threat, and sometimes chain of smog when you're hellbent is just an extra (slightly worse) hymn. I dont feel like any matchups are unwinnable, but also not a lot of easy wins either.

[Wilkin]

Went 3-3 today in a 64 person legacy tournament. Saw a bunch of people I haven't seen in ages. It was fun despite the meh result.

4 Bob
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Sheoldred, the apocalypse
1 Tourach Dread, Cantor
1 Skyclave Apparition
1 Lion Sash
1 Dauthi Voidwalker
1 Plague Engineer
1 Gurmag Angler

4 Thoughseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Karn's Sylex
1 Kaya's Guile
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sudden Edict
1 Batterskull
1 Kaldra Compleat
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Chrome Mox

4 Scrubland
3 Swamp
1 PLains
1 Karakas
1 Castle Lochtwain
4 Wasteland
7 fetches

3 Leyline of the Void, 1 Leyline of Sanctity, 1 Helm of Obedience, 1 Opposition Agent, 1 Pithing Needle, 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, 1 Humility, 1 Toxic Deluge, 1 Torpor Orb,2 Serenity, 1 Nihil Spellbomb

Round 1 Reanimator win 2-1
Had the turn 1, game 1 Discard to stop Dark Ritual, Entomb and animate dead shenanigans. Cast a Stoneforge for a Lion Sash to seal the deal.
Game 2, he had a Shallow grave to deal with my 1 GY hate piece (lion sash I think) as he uses an entomb for a big fattie. Atraxa I think.
Game 3. I had the Swords to Plowshares and Sudden Edict to deal with Archon of Cruelty and Griselbrand

Round 2. Blue white control with Narset/hull breacher/day's undoing/Shark Typhoon. Win 2-1
Game 1. I almost get there with a Tourach, Dread Cantor but Jace + Narset + Day's Undoing is too much.
Game 2. I thoughtseize my opponent who kept a 1 lander being Prismatic Vista. I promptly use my Chrome Mox to power out a Pithing Needle turn 1 to mana screw my opponent. Opponent top decks.....another Vista. lol. Gotcha. Eventually opponent is able to get a different fetchland to Prismatic Ending my Needle but at that point double Bob is too much card advantage.
Game 3. Opponent is a bit mana flooded and can't keep with me spamming all 3 of my Mystics.

Round 3. 8 Cast. Lose 2-0
Game 1. Hand is way too fast game 1. Sy, turn 1 or 2.
Game 2. I first resolve a Serenity. It gets bounced and then when I try to cast it again, it gets forced. Boo urns.

Round 4. 8 Cast. Win 2-0
game 1. A much slower hand, thank goodness. lol. He has a Canoneer that I'm able to keep him 1 mana away from casting....I topdeck a Skyclave Apparition to eat a Mox Opal to make things worse. Skyclave and a Lion Sash finish the game.
Game 2. I thougthseize away a Force of Will. Opponent has stuff on board but I resolve Serenity this time and blow up at least 5 permanents. Opponent said they were a bit puzzled why I took Force at first, instead of Thought Monitor. lol, picture got a bit clearer now. He recovers a fair bit gettting a later Canoneer and a couple of Construct tokens but I have a Sheoldred (riding a Batterskull), Bob and Kaldra to win the game.

Round 5. Mono black Saga Storm. Lose 2-1
Game 1. I'm able to do enough disruption with discard and a Liliana of the Veil ultimate to win with a Tourach and a Gurmag Angler.
Game 2. Early Ad Nauseum too much for me.
Game 3. Had a Bob, but didn't draw me anything quickly enough to deal with another Ad Nauseum.

Round 6. REd Stompy. Lose 2-1
Game 1. I have 2 basic swamps so I could tolerate the turn 2 blood moon. Rode a Dauthi Voidwalker with a Jitte on it to victory.
Game 2. Too many 3 mana goblins to deal with.
Game 3. Much the same as game 2, also saw fable of the mirror breaker games 2 and 3.


Went 3-3 which is sort of dissapointing. 2 of the 3 losses went to 3 which kinda stings although I did win a really tough matchup in blue white Control. I don't do well vs fair blue control decks.
-Lion Sash was MVP today. It won a game vs Reanimator. And won a few times with it in other matchups. Is one of me tutor targets if I feel opponent has the removal for the Mystic.
-Only saw Karn's Sylex once today. And it was in a match I was already winning anyway so hard to evaluate it. It's there to hopefully screw over a fetchland, make Force worse and killing things on board is never a bad thing. :)
-Sheoldred, The Apocalypse is a house. Feels a bit like betrayal taking out the Hero of Bladehold for Sheoldred but Sheoldred is insane. No card advantage but does so many other things...makes card draw really bad for opponent, can win without combat, makes certain strategies really bad etc.
-Felt great adding Sudden Edicts to main. Having hard to counter removal was great vs Reanimator today. Also frees up a couple of spots in my sideboard.
-Saw my Leyline of the Void when I needed it. lol. Spectators laughed and wondered out loud if that was my only Leyline in my 75, which I have been famously been known for doing.
-Might take out the Humility for another Serenity or Engineered Explosives.
-Tourach, Dread Cantor did pretty well too. Almost Single handedly won a game vs Blue White Control and did some beatdown wins.

[datanaga]

Hello guys,
what do you think about build with:
4x Orcish Bowmasters
4x Staff of the Storyteller
4x Chrome Mox
as a start?

[FTW]

I've played around with BW Staff brews. Staff could be a viable card engine instead of Bob, giving you a chump blocker instead of life loss liability.

Bowmasters are a decent hatecard and token engine.

Maybe something like this


//Mana: 24
3 Chrome Mox
4 Marsh Flats
4 Prismatic Vista
4 Scrubland
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Castle Ardenvale
3 Wasteland

//Creatures: 13
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Orcish Bowmasters
3 Dauthi Voidwalker
3 Sedgemoor Witch

//Artifacts: 7
4 Staff of the Storyteller
1 Lion Sash
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Kaldra Compleat

//Spells: 16
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
2 March of Otherworldly Light
2 Sheoldred's Edict
1 Kaya's Guile
1 Sevinne's Reclamation

//Sideboard: 15
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Deafening Silence
2 Pithing Needle
2 Serenity
2 Plague Engineer
1 Tourach, Dread Cantor
1 Torpor Orb
1 Fracture
1 Sudden Edict
1 Serra the Benevolent


Advantages of Staff over Bob:

Dies to less
When it does die, it trades positively with removal (leaves behind 1/1).
Can play on 3 mana so it always trades positively with removal (draw card in response), while Bob can die before the draw
No life loss. Can't suicide you.
Removes CMC restrictions for deckbuilding
Chump block mode can block big flyers like Murktide and Marit Lage
Pitches to March/Solitude


Cons of Staff:

Uses more mana, especially white mana
Harder to get multiple draws out of it
Shut off by effects like Needle/Ouphe
Draw stopped by Hullbreacher (but not Narset)



Ways to make tokens to trigger Staff:
Bowmasters
Stoneforge -> Kaldra
Sedgemoor + spell
Kaya's Guile
Sevinne's -> Staff/Bowmaster/Sedgemoor
Castle Ardenvale
Serra

[Galad Arnor]

Hi everyone.

This is my vision of Deadguy Ale. It is based on the consideration that by now dark ritual and dark confidant have become too slow to stay in a Mid-range, so I was inspired by the classic Deadguy, plus the modern monoblack.

My game plan is no longer putting Liliana of the veil right away, because there are too many zero counters and if the deck loses its engine discart, it loses too much power.

The game plan of the deck is to suck the opponent into the darkness with manadenial.

I think it was a mistake to remove sinkhole from the deck, because over the years the cards to make manadenial have increased they have not decreased and we have not exploited them because of the Dark Confidant. We first had death Cloud which was an excellent out vs landeed, then Phyrexian obliterator which was a Zoo solution. Now we have shadow of doubt which is excellent both for manadenial and as a hate vs combo.

Sinkhole and vindicate are also great hates vs prismatic endings.

This game plan concludes with Karn, the great creator.

Regarding board control I use damn

This is my deck list.


//Manabase 21 slots

5 swamp
4 scrubland
4 godless shrine
4 silent clearing
4 wasteland

//Creatures 4 slots

4 Timeless dragon

//Planeswalker 4 slots

4 Karn, the great creator

//Spells 31 slots

4 mishra's bauble

3 nihil spellbomb
4 swords to plowshares
4 thoughtseize

4 hymn to tourach
4 Shadow of doubt

4 vindicate
4 damn

//Sideboard 15 slots

4 abolish

4 orim's chant

2 Phyrexian metamorph

1 mycosynth lattice

1 wurmcoil engine

1 the Stone brain

1 cityscape leveler

1 nihil spellbomb

[Wilkin]

Put up a few decent FNM performances in the last month. 3-1 and 4-0. Took out an Opposition Agent and a Plague Engineer main for 2 Orcish Bowmasters. And yesterday tried a Triumph of Saint Katherine (it replaced a Gurmag Angler).

-Didn't see Triumph at all yesterday. Figured I'd give her a shot. A resilient card with lifelink that could be cast for 2 mana. Awkard if I have to cast it for 5 but I do that already for Batterskull a fair bit.
-Bowmasters has been really good. Most people are smart enough to not Brainstorm blindly when I have 2 open mana unless they really need to. And even though Death and Taxes doesn't draw extra cards (outside of maybe Palace Jailer), it's been a house vs them. But there are matchups where it's kinda meh. Such as vs Initiative and most stompy decks.
-Bob has still been ok so far. lol. Only died once to an opposing Bowmasters so far. Unfortunately, there's not a good Bob substitute. Thought about Call of the Ring, but not quite good enough although I still might try one.
-Lion Sash has been really good. Got it as big as a 7/7. I'm always partial to Graveyard hate and the fact it's tutorable too is nice.
-Karn's Sylex continues to get people. I think I've had 3 opponents not respond to Karn's Sylex by using their fetchlands.

-Going to 3 Chrome Mox and 22 lands (it was 21 lands before) has been much better for me since I run quite a few 3 drops. Very rarely has my Castle Lochtwains came into play tapped. Only once or twice. And the card draw has been huge.


Galad. If the gameplan is mana denial, perhaps a Karn's Sylex or 2 could work. I've been liking it for removal, mana denial, good vs force etc. and this is in a deck that plays fetches. Your list could run it risk free.

[Galad Arnor]

Thank you for your reply. There's no need for karn's sylex anymore, because now I've replaced the fetches with mishra's bauble and the deck is better performing. Want to see the list? Now I make heavy denial. It had no sense to play mishra's bauble with more then 18 lands. Now I play 17. Also karn trasnsforms opponent's planeswalkers (and lands) into creatures and i can destroy them with STP and damn.

For drowing you could test Sorin the mirthless , it's stronger then prismatic ending.

[Wilkin]

Thank you for your reply. There's no need for karn's sylex anymore, because now I've replaced the fetches with mishra's bauble and the deck is better performing. Want to see the list? Now I make heavy denial. It had no sense to play mishra's bauble with more then 18 lands. Now I play 17. Also karn trasnsforms opponent's planeswalkers (and lands) into creatures and i can destroy them with STP and damn.

For drowing you could test Sorin the mirthless , it's stronger then prismatic ending.

Yeah sure. It's always interesting to see different takes on the deck.

[Clark Kant]

I've played around with BW Staff brews. Staff could be a viable card engine instead of Bob, giving you a chump blocker instead of life loss liability.

Bowmasters are a decent hatecard and token engine.

Maybe something like this


//Mana: 24
3 Chrome Mox
4 Marsh Flats
4 Prismatic Vista
4 Scrubland
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Castle Ardenvale
3 Wasteland

//Creatures: 13
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Orcish Bowmasters
3 Dauthi Voidwalker
3 Sedgemoor Witch

//Artifacts: 7
4 Staff of the Storyteller
1 Lion Sash
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Kaldra Compleat

//Spells: 16
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
2 March of Otherworldly Light
2 Sheoldred's Edict
1 Kaya's Guile
1 Sevinne's Reclamation

//Sideboard: 15
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Deafening Silence
2 Pithing Needle
2 Serenity
2 Plague Engineer
1 Tourach, Dread Cantor
1 Torpor Orb
1 Fracture
1 Sudden Edict
1 Serra the Benevolent


Advantages of Staff over Bob:

Dies to less
When it does die, it trades positively with removal (leaves behind 1/1).
Can play on 3 mana so it always trades positively with removal (draw card in response), while Bob can die before the draw
No life loss. Can't suicide you.
Removes CMC restrictions for deckbuilding
Chump block mode can block big flyers like Murktide and Marit Lage
Pitches to March/Solitude


Cons of Staff:

Uses more mana, especially white mana
Harder to get multiple draws out of it
Shut off by effects like Needle/Ouphe
Draw stopped by Hullbreacher (but not Narset)



Ways to make tokens to trigger Staff:
Bowmasters
Stoneforge -> Kaldra
Sedgemoor + spell
Kaya's Guile
Sevinne's -> Staff/Bowmaster/Sedgemoor
Castle Ardenvale
Serra

List looks awesome with one caveat.

Imo, the scam reanimate troll package is very strong here and a better alternative to cabal therapy with a few slots freed up by cutting some of the 1/2 ofs.

Also, you are essentially using a two card combo (Sedgmemoor Witch + Staff) to draw a card each turn, Dark Confidant or The One Ring also draw cards by themselves.

Those freed slots could instead be used to play a powerful one sided hate bear like Opposition Agent (swapping with Plague Engineer or anticombo hate card from the board for certain metas/matchups).

[Wilkin]

Dark Confidant is so bad to play these days with Orcish Bowmasters around. LOL, even before bowmasters hardly anyone played Bob anymore. I've cut down to 2 bobs atm. Replaced one with a Stoneforge Mystic (back to 4 Mystics now) and the other with....Mindblade Render. Yep, desparate times. And believe me, I looked up every 2 mana Bob Variant....and they are all crappy.

B1. Azra Warrior. 1/3. Whenever one of your opponents is dealt damage by a warrior, you draw a card and lose 1 life. So it's kind of like a bad Shadowmage Infiltrator except that it has no evasion and is 1 mana cheaper. I did happen to look up the Warrior type in black and white creatures. I've only tried out 2 of them before, Gatekeeper of Malakir and Triumph of Saint Katherine. Mindblade Render doesn't immediately die to a Bowmasters but attacking into a flash bowmaster is almost just as bad as they can trade for your render, you don't draw a card and they are left with either the Orc Army or the Bowmaster.

Tried it out a few times and it hasn't been the worst. Since I play an insane amount of removal I've been able to clear the path for the Mindblade Render to connect and draw me a card. Had it versus Painter and Maverick and was able to draw 5 cards Against painter and 3 against maverick before they found a Swords to Plowshares.

[Valech]

Dark Confidant is so bad to play these days with Orcish Bowmasters around. LOL, even before bowmasters hardly anyone played Bob anymore. I've cut down to 2 bobs atm. Replaced one with a Stoneforge Mystic (back to 4 Mystics now) and the other with....Mindblade Render. Yep, desparate times. And believe me, I looked up every 2 mana Bob Variant....and they are all crappy.


Breaks my heart, but I think Bob´s gonna go where hypnotic spectre, vampire nighthawk and nantuko shade went...

[FTW]

Bob's dead. Call of the Ring or Staff of the Storyteller are the 2cmc draw engines that are still competitive.

Mindblade Render seems pretty bad, maybe better than other Bob variants but not great either.

BW Scam is quite competitive, but it's far enough from Deadguy that it should be a distinct deck.

I'd look into Staff more.

Staffguy Ale

//CORE: 47
//Lands: 21
4 Marsh Flats
4 Prismatic Vista
4 Scrubland
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland

//Creatures: 11
4 Orcish Bowmasters
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Dauthi Voidwalker

//Artifacts: 7
4 Staff of the Storyteller
1 Lion Sash
1 Batterskull
1 Kaldra Compleat

//Disruption: 8
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares

That leaves 13 flex slots which could include the 22nd land, more removal, more discard, Grief scam package, PWs, a token package, card draw. Ex:
Prismatic Ending
March of Otherworldly Light
Hymn to Tourach
Sheoldred's Edict
Sudden Edict
Kaya's Guile
Kaya, Orzhov Usurper
Serra the Benevolent
Bitterblossom
Castle Ardenvale
Timeless Dragon
Sheoldred, the Apocalypse
Grief
Reanimate
Sevinne's Reclamation
Sedgemoor Witch
Monastery Mentor
Cabal Therapy
Cling to Dust
Call of the Ring
The One Ring

There are many potential directions to go with the other cards, but those first 47 seem like auto-includes if building with Staff instead.

[FTW]

I've been experimenting with Staff Bowmaster brews and decided to splash red:


//Lands: 20
4 Marsh Flats
4 Arid Mesa
3 Scrubland
3 Plateau
2 Badlands
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Karakas

//Spells: 17
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Prismatic Ending
2 Cling to Dust
2 Forth Eorlingas!
1 Kaya's Guile

//Creatures: 11
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Orcish Bowmasters
3 Timeless Dragon

//Artifacts: 7
4 Staff of the Storyteller
1 Lion Sash
1 Batterskull
1 Kaldra Compleat

//Enchantments: 4
4 Fable of the Mirror-Breaker

//Planeswalkers: 1
1 Comet, Stellar Pup


Tokens are all tier 1 cards:
Bowmasters
Stoneforge -> Germ
Fable
Forth Eorlingas!
Comet
Timeless eternalized

Staff should have the potential to draw a lot of cards, but none of the enablers are bad without Staff. Other card draw comes from Fable and the Monarch. So you don't need Bob, aren't fully dependent on Staff, and aren't that weak to Bowmaster. But T2 Staff does nicely curve into T3 Fable, Forth!, or Bowmasters.

Red also improves sideboard options and allows Prismatic Ending, although the mana is less stable.

[Wilkin]

Interesting idea FTW. The land count seems a bit low to me though. I've seen non blue Scam lists run 20 lands but they have 4 trolls to help out. I see there are dragons in there but you'll probably get quite a few 1 land hands imo.

Sadly, you are right about Bob, although stubborn me is still trying. Melded my Dead guy Ale list with Scam. Went 2-2-1 with it. Made a few mistakes with it but it felt alright. Feels so much better vs Initiative decks, being able to take their Chaos of Caves Adventurer and then reanimate it.

[FTW]

22 lands might be better. I got manascrewed in a few games, especially against Wastelands.

Edit:
+1 Bloodstained Mire
+1 Castle Ardenvale

-1 Lion Sash (move to SB)
-1 Fable?

[Wilkin]

Fable, sure you can cut one. I wouldn't cut Lion Sash. I find it to be very good. Had it as big as an 8/8 in games.

[Galad Arnor]

Hi.

The metagame Is very changed and this could be a God deck to build. But I wont to play It black based style.

This Is my deck list


//Manabase 18 slots

4 Marsh flats
2 swamp
4 scrubland
4 wasteland
4 godless shrine

//Creatures 15 slots

4 stoneforge Mystic
4 orcish bowmasters
4 timeless dragon
3 bitterblossom

//Equipment and artifacts 7 slots

4 mishra's bauble
1 kaldra compleat
1 batterskull
1 umezawa's jitte

//Spells 20 slots

4 Thoughtseize
4 swords to plowshares

4 hymn to tourach
4 sinkhole

4 vindicate

//Sideboard 15 slots

4 orim's chant
4 nihil spellbomb
4 dauthi voidwalker
2 toxic Deluge
1 drach'nyen



Bitterblossom Is a solution to murktide.
In side orim's chant play well vs storm, counter deck and terminus. Drach'nyen Is a solution at Emrakul.

[FTW]

I like your strategy!

The manabase could be improved. There's no reason to lose life to Godless Shrine in Legacy.


//Manabase 20 slots
4 Marsh flats
4 Prismatic Vista
4 Scrubland
2 Plains
2 Swamp
4 Wasteland

You may want even more than 20 lands with Wasteland, but that should be the minimum.

Otherwise the deck looks strong with Hymn and Vindicate.

Karakas is already a solution to Emrakul.

Bitterblossom is weak these days. You can beat Murktide with Sheoldred's Edict, Swords to Plowshares, Vindicate... easy matchup.

[Galad Arnor]

I like your strategy!

The manabase could be improved. There's no reason to lose life to Godless Shrine in Legacy.


//Manabase 20 slots
4 Marsh flats
4 Prismatic Vista
4 Scrubland
2 Plains
2 Swamp
4 Wasteland

You may want even more than 20 lands with Wasteland, but that should be the minimum.

Otherwise the deck looks strong with Hymn and Vindicate.

Karakas is already a solution to Emrakul.

Bitterblossom is weak these days. You can beat Murktide with Sheoldred's Edict, Swords to Plowshares, Vindicate... easy matchup.

Manabase Is good, I have 8 manafixer. Godless shrine Is necessary for timeless dragon. This Is a suicide. Plains? The deck no Need, it's a black based. About bblossom, stp and vindicate are not sufficient to contain murktide, marit lage, etc. I have perfectioned my deck list. I removed bowmasters becouse the deck don't wont remain open, also bowmasters have no sinergy with damn Who I play in side. So I prefear bblossom. I sobstituited mishra's bauble with cling to dust 'couse Is recursive and manabase have no problems. If I had problems remove Lion sash and duress for lands, but there isn't This necessity. This Is the new deck list.



//Creatures 12 slots

4 stoneforge Mystic
4 timeless dragon
4 bitterblossom

//Equipment 4 slots

1 kaldra compleat
1 batterskull
1 umezawa's jitte
1 Lion sash

//Spells 26 slots

4 swords to plowshares
4 cling to dust

4 Thoughtseize
2 duress

4 hymn to tourach
4 sinkhole

4 vindicate

//Manabase 18 slots

4 Marsh flats
4 scrubland
4 godless shrine
4 wasteland
2 swamp

//Sideboard 15 slots

4 orim's chant
4 damn
4 nihil spellbomb
2 toxic Deluge
1 drach'nyen

[FTW]

What if opponent has Blood Moon or Back to Basics? Magus of the Moon?

Need Plains to cast answers.

What if opponent uses Price of Progress after you suicide to Godless Shrine, Bitterblossom, Thoughtseize? Concede and go home? Basic land is good.

With 4 Scrubland + 2 Plains, Timeless Dragon does not need Godless Shrine. If you draw all Plains, cast the 5/5 for 3WW.

4 Marsh Flats
4 Prismatic Vista
4 Scrubland
3 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Wasteland
= 15 black sources, still black-based!

Easy to cast Hymn to Tourach, Damn, etc.

[Galad Arnor]

What if opponent has Blood Moon or Back to Basics? Magus of the Moon?

Need Plains to cast answers.

What if opponent uses Price of Progress after you suicide to Godless Shrine, Bitterblossom, Thoughtseize? Concede and go home? Basic land is good.

With 4 Scrubland + 2 Plains, Timeless Dragon does not need Godless Shrine. If you draw all Plains, cast the 5/5 for 3WW.

4 Marsh Flats
4 Prismatic Vista
4 Scrubland
3 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Wasteland
= 15 black sources, still black-based!

Easy to cast Hymn to Tourach, Damn, etc.

Bblossom can go on side for bowmasters. Plains Is horrible in this deck, I tested, but in some things you are right. For Blood Moon there Is no solution. A corrected list could be this:



//Creatures 8 slots

4 stoneforge Mystic
4 timeless dragon

//Equipment 4 slots

1 Kaldra compleat
1 batterskull
1 umezawa's jitte
1 Lion sash

//Spells 29 slots

4 swords to plowshares
3 cling to dust

4 Thoughtseize
2 duress

4 hymn to tourach
4 sinkhole
4 damn

4 vindicate

//Manabase 19 slots

4 Marsh flats
4 wasteland
4 scrubland
2 godless shrine
4 swamp
1 plains

//Sideboard 15 slots

4 orim's chant
4 nihil spellbomb
4 orcish bowmasters
2 toxic Deluge
1 drach'nyen


Edit. the deck draws little, it doesn't swarm, so it is preferable to play damn mains and bowmasters in the side

[Zupponn]

I decided I wanted to try and play Land Tax in Legacy and this is what I came up with:

4 Orcish Bowmasters
4 Samwise the Stouthearted
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Solitude
3 Stalactite Stalker

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
3 Land Tax
3 Raven's Crime
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Kaldra Compleat
1 Andúril, Flame of the West

4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
1 Polluted Delta
1 Takenuma, Abandoned Mire
2 Karakas
4 Swamp
3 Plains

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Deafening Silence
2 Stony Silence
2 Serenity
2 Force of Despair
2 Plague Engineer

The Stalactite Stalkers are new and replaced a pair of Reanimates and one Call of the Ring I was trying out (it wasn't very good), so I'm not sure how good they are yet. I also just swapped in the Takenuma to replace a Castle Locthwain that was underperfoming, so we'll see how good that is too. We have a Legacy league here in Milwaukee every Tuesday and this has been performing pretty well and is a ton of fun, I'm going to keep working on it for a while.

[Wilkin]

Played a small 19 person tournament yesterday. Snuck into 8th place with a 3-2 record and lost in first round. Tried out a couple of Caustic Broncos. Didn't see them much. One died to plow, one was countered and only one resolved and swung once. Will still try them out.

Positive highlights. Vs Show and tell. opponent casts show and tell and puts in an Emrakul. I put in Humility. gg.
Vs. Mud. Opponent casts a Chalice of the void for 2 to stop me from casting Serenity. I then cast a Karn's Sylex a couple of turns later to blow up his whole board except for one land.
vs Reanimator (that can board into chain of smog combo in games 2 and 3). Turn 1 pitch cast Grief to take Atraxa. Cast Reanimate on Atraxa. Get a bunch of cards, cast Chrome Mox and then Reanimate my Grief to take Animate dead. 10 power turn 1.

Humilty, Karn's Sylex and Stoneforge Mystic carried the deck.

[FTW]

Good tech. What were you running?

[Wilkin]

Most of the same crap i usually run. Other maindeck change is adding a Shadowy Backstreet and taking out a fetch. Fetchable Surveil lands are pretty nuts, which makes the Troll extra good, went up to 2. Deck is like half Scam, with a Stoneforge package. Sometimes opponent has GY hate that sometimes doesn't do much to me or has something like Meltdown which is also situational.

Other notes.
-Mystic is still pretty decent. But Jitte isn't that good atm. Lion Sash is really good as is Kaldra.
-Karn's Sylex still gets people. Whether it's fetches, Force of Will, Dismember etc. I've even been able to activate for 6 to kill a troll.


3 Grief
3 Bowmasters
3 Stoneforge
2 Troll of Khazam-dum
2 Caustic Bronco
1 Skyclave Apparition
1 Lion Sash
1 Dauthi Voidwalker
3 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn
3 Reanimate
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Plow
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Kaldra Compleat
2 Chrome mox
2 Karn's Sylex
4 Scrubland, 3 swamp, 1 plains, 1 Karakas, 1 Shadowy Backstreet, 2 Castle Lochtwain, 4 Wasteland, 6 fetches

board. 2 Leyline of the Void. 1 Leyline of Sanctity. 2 Serenity. 1 Cleansing Nova. 1 Humility. 1 Surgical Extraction. 1 Mindbreak trap. 1 Ethersworn Canonist. 1 Damn. 1 Sheoldred's Edict. 1 Unlicensed Hearse. 1 Tourach, Dread Cantor. 1 Opposition Agent.

[Wilkin]

Went to Heart of the Game in Buffalo. Was tied for top seed after swiss with a record of 4 wins and a draw. Split top 8, which I was thankful for since it took a few hours to get to Buffalo from Toronto. List is the same as last time except I took out a Canonist from the board for a Pest Control.

Round 1. MUD. Win in 2.
Both of his starts were slow. I had Karn's Sylex to wipe his board to win. In game 2, my opener had 2 Serenity and 5 lands. I think that's a keep. lol. I later drew a Karn's Sylex to wipe out more stuff. Drew a Pest Control later in the game but the game was already done at that point.

Round 2. BUG beans. Win in 3.
Game 1, turn 1 I Chrome mox and cast a Stoneforge mystic into Kaldra Compleat.
Game 2. Card advantage engine was too good for me to win
Can't remember game 3 that much. I think an Orc token as a 3/3 eventually got there in the end.

Round 3. UB Scaminator. win in 3
Game 1. He animate deads an Archon of Cruelty. GG.
Game 2. He has a Liliana of the veil (he used his Dauthi Voidwalker to cast it) on 2 and a Grief. I had a Stoneforge Mystic in play which had just tutored a Kaldra. He thoughtseizes me first. I respond with an Orcish Bowmasters to knock Lily to 1. My hand had a Kaldra, Surgical extraction and a Liliana of the Veil. He scooped at that point. Guess he felt I would have outgrinded him out at that point.
Game 3. At one point I had a Grief and he had an animate dead Grief. I was winning the race and topdecked better to win.

Game 4. Hullbreacher echo. Win in 3.
Game 1. He wins though a thoughtseize to hullbreacher echo turn 2.
game 2 and 3. At least one of them (maybe both) had a serenity kill of his permanents except 1 land. Leyline of the Void in game 3 saved me from a Hullbreacher echo loss.

Deck did well this time. Mystic was great. So was Lion Sash. Only did Grief/reanimate a couple of times. Only saw Pest Control once but didn't cast or cycle it but will continue to leave it in sideboard. Didn't see Caustic Bronco that much either. May try a Boggard Trawler or a Fell the Profane for a Castle Lochtwain.