[Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant) [Archive] - Page 5

Tha Gunslinga

08-02-2007, 01:33 PM

Here's what I'm playing:

// Lands
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [B] Scrubland
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [4E] Swamp (1)
4 [PT] Plains (2)
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
3 [SOK] Descendant of Kiyomaro
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [CHK] Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 [TSP] Serra Avenger
3 [CS] Jotun Grunt

// Spells
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [AP] Vindicate
4 [US] Duress
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (1)

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [MR] Rule of Law
SB: 3 [A] Wrath of God
SB: 3 [TSB] Disenchant
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void

I've been doing extremely well vs Goblins and Thresh, and I can usually take care of random decks. Assault-Loam can be somewhat difficult preboard, as can 4-color LandStill. And yes, I pack it up to Burn. Otherwise it's been working pretty well for me.

Hummingbird TG

08-06-2007, 01:47 PM

The list uses a more WW creature base than the standard black one; its more effecient in dealing damage, but less disruptive as it loses Hyppie; Also, is the larger emphasis on white worth it in comparison to how much it damages the mana base?

Also: Wrath over EPlague? Why?

Bane of the Living

08-06-2007, 10:49 PM

Also: Wrath over EPlague? Why?

My guess is Tarmagoyf. Decendant of Kiyomaro is really good. I have a friend who plays this build but also opts to run Gerards Verdict to assure a :1::w::w: Exalted Angel.

Hummingbird TG

08-07-2007, 09:45 AM

I've run Gerrard's before. It's too slow; we need to do more in the early game to sufficiently disrupt the opponent. I'm running Unmask in the slots currently.

cheddercaveman

08-09-2007, 11:54 AM

I would say that unmask is unnecessary personally. Back when flash was running around all crazy I could see the point. Also, if the deck was pure black I could see the point then too. Gerard's Verdict is 2 cards for 2 mana, with potential for lifegain, seems pretty good to me.

Hummingbird TG

08-09-2007, 12:39 PM

You said it, 2 mana. Thats abit too much for this deck to afford in the early gae, where it needs to bombard the opponent with disruption to survive.

electrolyze

08-16-2007, 01:35 PM

hello, im new to the forum and wanted to post 2 of my lists and know what you people think of them.

here it is:

my first list is a random list that works well against many decks and i use it when i dont know how the meta is:

creatures:

3xnantuko shade
4xhypnotic specter
3xjotun grunt
4xdark confidant

instants:

4xstp
4xdark ritual

sorceries:

4xhymn
4xduress
4xvindicate
4xsinkhole

land:

4xwasteland
1xtainted field
1xtomb of urami
4xscrubland
4xbloodstained mire
2xpolluted delta
6xswamp

sb:

4xwithered wretch
3xdisenchant
4xchainer's edict
4xengineered plague

i think my card choises are very clear,

i think chainer's edict is better then diabolic edict because in most of my games i get the mana to pay the flashback and that makes the 4xedict, 8x edict:tongue:

my nex list is very different and i use it in a more aggro and probably fast combo meta:

creatures:

4xdescendant
4xdark confidant
4xjotun grunt
2xwithered wretch

instants:

4xfuneral charm
4xstp

sorceries:

4xvindicate
4xduress
4xhymn
3xgerrard's verdict

artifacts:

2xumezawa's jitte

land:

2xtainted field
1xtomb of urami
3xswamp
3xplains
4xscrubland
2xwindswepth heath
4xbloodstained mire
2xwasteland

sb:

2xwithered wretch
2xperish
3xdisenchant
4xengineered plague
4xextirpate

this list looks a bit different but it works really good against goblins en many other aggro decks. against fast combo it works better too becasue of the many discard spells, but against aggro-control(wich are the most decks here i think) it lose many times because i dont have really big creatures like nantuko shade and i dont have much land destruction(wich is good against thresh i think). but the other thing this list has and the other dont is many special and unexpected abilities and cards like jitte, wretch, funeral charm.

does somebody has tips or commends about the 2 lists?

greetings, electrolyze

ps, i dont know if my english is 100% because it is not my first language.

Daeniel

08-17-2007, 02:45 PM

The list that I use currently is almost identical to your first deck; however, I've cut one Sword and one Specter to play two Cursed scroll, as they can be quite awesome and win game by themselves in some situation.

Against some archetypes 2 damages can kill almost every creature (e.g., goblin); they are a pleasant addition, try them! :wink:

electrolyze

08-17-2007, 06:00 PM

thanks for the reply.

about the scrol, i will try them but they look really bad to me on paper and what the people were saying about the card in this deck.

i definetely gonna try them and post my results.

greets, electrolyze

Hummingbird TG

08-18-2007, 12:20 AM

I personally wouldn't play so many StPs main...Sure, I run 4 in the board, but I wouldn't run so many cards dead against Combo...

EDIT: Just read hi-val's article on SCG...what's everyone think about running Lynx in the board?

electrolyze

08-18-2007, 04:12 AM

i think lynx is a very good creature because it is a permanetnly blocker of ghoyf and that kind of fatties abd you can beat with it.

i would personnally run it in my ideboard but i dont know how mych. ithink 3/4 times would be great.

Hummingbird TG

08-18-2007, 05:51 AM

It can also chump Piledriver indefinitely... I guess it's worth consideration, but what to cut for them? Definitely not Swords or Dystopia, but then what?

electrolyze

08-18-2007, 06:16 AM

in my build i'm thinking of cutting 4xchainer's edict for 4xlynx in side.
or i can play it 2xmain and 2xside because thresh and loam decks are in my meta the most played decks and it works wel against other decks too.

Hummingbird TG

08-18-2007, 09:14 AM

Chainer's Edict is very crude...really costs too much to be effective. Although I do have to confess it does get rid of Mongoose. Why no Dystopia in Board?

electrolyze

08-18-2007, 11:01 AM

yes, i was already thinking about dystopia in my sideboard but i dont have them on this moment so i putted the edicts in the board. i think perish might work as well but that effect is but for one time and it only affects green creatures.

but what do you think wich card is better for side, lynx or dystopia?

lynx can beat and block the creatures but dystopia kills them so you can also beat with shades and grunts without getting them blocked.

thefreakaccident

08-18-2007, 07:33 PM

I have a quick question for you guys...

why don't you play ghostly prison in the board?

with a mana denial strategy such as your own, wouldn't that be a strong card to have?

I may be incorrect, but I think it at least deserves some consideration.

Hummingbird TG

08-19-2007, 02:13 AM

Well, it would be good, although the mana denial is getting a little clunky sometimes, especially against combo, so I can't really advocate even Sinkhole these days.

electrolyze

08-20-2007, 02:14 PM

hello,

i've tested with cursed scrol the last week and i think it works quite good.
after testing with the scroll i was gonna test 2xspectral lyns main and -1 hippie and -1stp and that works much better, especially in the meta we have here with al the thresh. the scroll is very good but we have too much big creatures in our meta(and they are all green:laugh: ) so the scroll is not very usefull and the lynx hit for 2 like the scroll so thats the reason why i choose lynx above scroll.

here is my new list(it has not much difference):

creatures:

3xnantuko shade
3xhypnotic specter
3xjotun grunt
4xdark confidant
2xspectral lynx

instants:

3xstp
4xdark ritual

sorceries:

4xhymn
4xduress
4xvindicate
4xsinkhole

lands:

4xwasteland
1xtainted field
1xtomb of urami
4xscrubland
4xbloodstained mire
8xswamp

sb:

4xwithered wretch
3xdisenchant
4xchainer's edict
4xengineered plague

i use only 4 fetch because now i topdeck more land and that is useful because i have tomb of urami and then chainer's edict is more usefull in my sideboard. from my test results i think the edict is more usefull then dystopia because edict works agianst more colors and you dont lose life.

i'll hope this list is going to do very good on the tourney i have next month.

greets, electrolyze

TheFatalOne

08-20-2007, 03:16 PM

I'm thinking of picking this deck up currently. After testing it proxied it was quite good. Anyone have a good non-scroll list?

Hummingbird TG

08-21-2007, 06:14 AM

Why specifically non-scroll?

TheFatalOne

08-21-2007, 09:45 PM

I'm not a big fan of the card. Maybe I should look at it again and test.:tongue:

electrolyze

08-22-2007, 01:15 AM

i think the card is really good nut woth so many thresh, loam and fast combo decks here i think it isnt very usefull. but thats just my meta, maybe yours is much aggro-isher, because then is scroll better i think.

JimmyC27

08-22-2007, 08:15 PM

I'm thinking of picking this deck up currently. After testing it proxied it was quite good. Anyone have a good non-scroll list?

I've had success with this list:

3 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Windswepth Heath
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
1 Godless Shrine
4 Wasteland

4 Dark Confidant
3 Spectral Lynx
3 Serra Avenger
3 Descendant of Kiyomaro
2 Jotun Grunt

4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Dark Ritual
3 Umezawa's Jitte

SB:

4 Engineered Plague
4 Dystopia
4 Disenchant
3 Pithing Needle

I probably need to spend some time modifying my SB, but this list should serve as a decent starter for you. It's a fun deck, enjoy. :)

Hummingbird TG

08-23-2007, 09:07 AM

Above list looks more like Bw Fish than Bw Confidant...

JimmyC27

08-23-2007, 07:03 PM

I never thought about it like that, but I agree. I dropped some of the things like Sinkhole, Specter and Shade for Avenger, Descedent and Lynx.

JimmyC27

08-25-2007, 02:02 AM

This question is posed based off the list posted above. There are only 12 mono-black cards in the deck (Duress, Hymn, Dark Confidant), which makes me question if the deck needs to run Dark Ritual? Would it make more sense to drop Dark Ritual for Gerrard's Verdict? Basically, is there anything that makes the deck more optimal by dropping Dark Ritual.. :)

Hummingbird TG

08-25-2007, 03:51 AM

I would prefer Chrome Mox if dropping Dark Ritual. I think an Accelerant should be dropped for an accelerant.

Jak

08-25-2007, 04:13 AM

I liked this deck when it was a control deck. Only running like 7 beaters. Does anyone still run those lists?

Hummingbird TG

08-26-2007, 01:27 AM

7? The deck always ran at least 11, even in Pikula's original list (4 Dark Confidant, 4 Hypnotic Specter and 3 Nantuko Shade)

thefreakaccident

08-26-2007, 01:50 AM

The funny thing about it all, is no matter how much discussion about this particular deck and all the lists that are thrown out there, none of them get any better than the original.

Sure some of them may have a better combo or aggro matchup... but they sacrifice another matchup, while the original was right in the middle.

For example against decks A and B, you will change the deck so you can have a 80/20 against deck A, but will then have a 20/80 against deck B... then you look at the original list and it had a 60/40 against both decks A and B.

that is actually a great comment, the one about the BW fish... that is exactly what it looks like... and is in fact no longer pikula. Pikula is a LD based aggro-control w/ discard & creature control as backup disruption so it can seal the deal.

you guys are running dark ritual, even though you are taking out some of the only reasons you would want to have it... examples being hippie, plague, shade, scroll, and all the broken first turn openings it allowed.

I love to get a first turn duress + Hymm, then follow it up with a sinkhole the next turn.... then follow that up with a confidant to keep it going, a hypnotic specter to keep them down, or the shade to kill them while they are totally off balance.

Whenever I play this deck I use the original list, the only difference between mine and chris' is the manabase... I run a few more fetches and 2 godless shrines (no field or caves).

Jak

08-26-2007, 02:12 AM

7? The deck always ran at least 11, even in Pikula's original list (4 Dark Confidant, 4 Hypnotic Specter and 3 Nantuko Shade)

I said beaters, not draw. 2/1s are not beaters, unless they pump to become some.

Hummingbird TG

08-26-2007, 05:41 AM

Eh? By that logic, Hypnotic Specters aren't beaters too, then. Then the deck ran minimum of 3(3 Nantuko Shade). The more controlling versions max out at 6, iirc(3 Shade 3 Grunt).

Hummingbird TG

08-26-2007, 05:45 AM

JimmyC27

08-27-2007, 03:05 PM

What is your ideal Deadguy Ale list, Hummingbird?

Hummingbird TG

08-28-2007, 08:25 AM

Well, I'm currently testing a Smallpox list, but its still in testing, so...

My old list is as follows:

Mana 26

4 Scrubland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
5 Swamp

4 Dark Ritual

Creatures 12

4 Dark Confidant
3 Nantuko Shade
3 Hypnotic Specter
2 Jotun Grunt

Other 22

4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Unmask
4 Vindicate
2 Cursed Scroll
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Engineered Plague
2 Sensei's Divining Top

electrolyze

08-28-2007, 02:00 PM

here's my new anti-gro meta list:

4xdark confidant
3xhippie
3xnantuko shade
3xjoutun grunt
3xspectral lynx

4xdark ritual
4xstp

4xhymn to tourach
4xduress
4xvindicate

3xengineered explosives

4xbloodstained mire
4xscrubland
8xswamp
1xtainted field
1xtomb of urami
4xwasteland

sb:

4xchainer's edict
3xdisenchant
4xwithered wretch
4xengineered plague

i think with the 3xee and the 3xlynx and with sb chainer's edict i have a really strong gro mu and still a good combo mu and a not that aggro mu because of the explosives.

i have cutted the sinkholes because the card did not much in my deck angainst many decks and the explosives are much better against many decks.

the only thing i was thinking about is to cut one lynx for a stp. what do you peole think of this?

Hummingbird TG

08-29-2007, 07:48 AM

A little tip: I believe Hypnotic SPecter is too slow in the current meta.

Versus

08-29-2007, 11:28 AM

There's so much LD and disruption here for the control element wouldn't Gator main deck in place of Hyppy be a soild choice?

Hummingbird TG

08-29-2007, 12:37 PM

If not for the fact that Gator is smaller than Goyf, and would merely worsen our Goblin matchup, it could be considered...Perhaps when the meta switches to control? I'm trying out a different black fatty at the moment, though...

Versus

08-29-2007, 01:34 PM

Hmmmm, I'm guessing a certain Sliver or a Swamp fetching Legend??

I've been wanting to test Hunted Horror myself. The drawback seems dealable.

electrolyze

08-29-2007, 03:44 PM

i've been testing a buid with horror and it works quite well.

here it is:

deadguy ale:

3xspectral lynx
3xnantuko shade
3xjotun grunt
4xdark confidant
2xhunted horror

3xengineered explosives

4xswords to plowshares
4xdark ritual

4xhymn to tourach
4xduress
4xvindicate

4xscrubland
4xbloodstained mire
1xtomb of urami
1xtainted field
8xswamp
4xwasteland

sb:

4xchainer's edict
4xwithered wretch
3xdisenchant
4xengineered plague

i cutted sinkholes and hippies for explosives, horror and more lynxes and the horror/lynx combi works good and with explosives you dont have trouble with the centaurs.

thefreakaccident

08-30-2007, 12:11 AM

The great thing is that explosives is actually quite affective in the current meta game, it will strengthen your combo MU and your aggro-control MU.

Good idea!

electrolyze

08-30-2007, 01:17 AM

i've tested a bit more with this list and i think explosives are really a ubergood card for this deck right now. the lynxes works really good too.

but the horror was not that good as i think because my opponent had most of the time too much destruction agianst the horror and i havent got the lynx or explosives in eacht game so the horror was actually a dead card in my hand.

i'm gonna try some other fatties instead of the horror but i dont know wich i should take. i was thinking of plague sliver but it is not a good combo with dark confidant because you lose too much life.

has somebody suggestions about wich creature i should take?

Tacosnape

08-30-2007, 03:19 AM

Lynx, for what it's worth, is insane tech. UGR Threshold has a nightmare getting rid of it once it hits the table, and it'll fence with Tarmogoyf all day long.

The problem with fatties and Dark Confidant is that there aren't many super fatties that have low Converted Mana Costs. Tarmogoyf isn't in our color scheme, Jotun Grunt sucks, Phyrexian Negator's insanely risky, and Flesh Reaver's just godawful.

I think an option is to just go the speed route with your guys. Like, here. This is sort of the hybrid of Stark Black, Red Death gone White, and Deadguy Ale.

4 Scrubland
1 Godless Shrine
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
7 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual

4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Vindicate

4 Carnophage
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Dark Confidant
4 Nantuko Shade
3 Spectral Lynx

SB:
4 Planar Void
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Plague
2 Pithing Needle
2 Meekstone (This could be, I dunno. Serenity? Geddon? Explosives? Anything metagamey.)

I've had good luck with this list lately. It borrows Stark Black's strength of being able to ritual out and equip a Jitte on turn two, plus here you can open with Rit-Duress-Confidant, Rit-Carnophage-Hymn, or whatnot. Planar Void is amazing nowadays, as it singlehandedly causes nightmares for a horde of decks and keeps Tarmogoyf off of you if it comes out early. Three Plagues and 2 Needles gives you solid versatility. The Meekstones seem very cool in this build, but they may or may not earn their keep. I need to test it more.

Thoughts?

Sigar

08-30-2007, 05:14 AM

Hummingbird TG

08-30-2007, 08:44 AM

Personally my testing build MDs Tombstalker(s) and Sensei's Divining Top. The top should reduce the instances one gets hit for 8.

Versus

08-30-2007, 11:16 AM

That does look interesting. Suicide Grey!

These Fetch lands freak me out though. Taco has 6 listed in his deck and some have 7, but the ones that have 4. If that get's Needled you're gonna be sitting there trying to get those 4 Scrubs just to play half your cards.

Obviously I don't know shit about it cause I never really tried it (other than a few games proxied), but why have Pain Lands (then RAV Shocks) completely fallen out of the good graces of Legacy players?

All I can gather is Wasteland...?

Hummingbird TG

08-30-2007, 11:53 AM

Because to tap them for colored mana, pain lands cost more life over the course of a game than Shock lands. Also, they're unfetchable

Versus

08-30-2007, 12:08 PM

Because to tap them for colored mana, pain lands cost more life over the course of a game than Shock lands. Also, they're unfetchable

Sure, that's understandable. The Ravnica Lands are though, but those cost 2. It's obviously not a risk having Fetches Needled. I'm just shocked that some run so few mana sources for their splash colors. Don't get me wrong. I see the value in them completely. I was just expecting land lists would look more like:

4 Duals
4 RAV Shocks
4 Fetch
8 Main color

Red Death run 6/7 Fetch and 3 Duals and NOTHING else that creates splash mana. At least Pikula has the full set of Duals and a Tainted Field.

Alright, I won't derail the thread any longer. I was just curious.

Tacosnape

08-30-2007, 02:13 PM

Looks super cool,

but I would maindeck StP over Cabal Therapy

And I would also like to see some kind of evasion on that list.

Mistral Charger, Serra Avenger, Hyppe, Skirge?

I also think Descendant of Kiyomaro is hot in a B/W discard deck.

You could easily maindeck STP over Therapy depending on your metagame.

As for evasion, I agree it would be nice. Serra Avenger's WW is too risky without a playset of fetches and several Godless Shrines involved (Compromising Shade with basic Plains is never my favorite idea), and although Avenger and Jitte are pretty hot together, I really want to get my Jitte online before I can play Avenger. I hate Skirge and Mistral Charger blows. Hpnotiq Specter's playable, but I've always felt he blows if you don't hit a Ritual. I'd want Chrome Moxes before I attempted him.

Spectral Lynx, for what it's worth, sort of fills the evasion role, as green creatures are usually the guys you most need to evade. Shade semi-evades for fear of a pump, and Jitte just lets my guys barrel through.

But I think if I were to edge a flyer in here I'd just go with Stromgald Crusader. Pro-STP and Pump are icing on the cake.

Sure, that's understandable. The Ravnica Lands are though, but those cost 2. It's obviously not a risk having Fetches Needled. I'm just shocked that some run so few mana sources for their splash colors. Don't get me wrong. I see the value in them completely. I was just expecting land lists would look more like:

4 Duals
4 RAV Shocks
4 Fetch
8 Main color

Red Death run 6/7 Fetch and 3 Duals and NOTHING else that creates splash mana. At least Pikula has the full set of Duals and a Tainted Field.

Alright, I won't derail the thread any longer. I was just curious.

I don't think this is derailing the thread. I think it's a highly valid point to bring up. The manabase is the heart and soul of a deck.

Pikula ran a total of nine black sources (4 Scrubs, a Field, and four fetchlands (All Mires)) for the following reasons:

1. His Deadguy Ale ran a lot of Land Destruction, and he wanted the option of needling Polluted Delta to contribute to this. From his own words, he expected there to be Psychatog decks which would run this.
2. He wanted to be wary of his life total with 4 Dark Confidants. This is a wise stance, but one I can afford to be riskier on as I maindeck 4 Jitte. Pikula had a mere two Gerrard's Verdicts to recover life.
3. As far as I can remember, Godless Shrine had not yet been printed / was not yet legal.
4. Pikula's deck functioned almost flawlessly without white. Other than Vindicate and Gerrard's Verdict, a total of 6 cards, nothing else maindeck required white. I can't say the same with my deck. I frequently will lead with Isamaru, Puppy of Konda, so I want white on turn 1 as frequently as possible. If 11 chances to hit white proves to be too low, I'll go to 4 Mires.

As for why we run Fetchlands over Shocklands, Fetchlands get you what you need for one less life total, evade Land Destruction in a pinch, and provide a shuffling effect (And a negligible thinning effect, though I've never felt this was reason enough alone to run them.) You'll notice I do run a single Godless Shrine, though, which is there strictly for the purpose of opposing decks not being able to Extirpate Scrubland and shut me off from a color permanently.

Versus

08-30-2007, 03:29 PM

Finn

08-30-2007, 03:35 PM

Hey, folks. I am guessing that Hunted Horror will not pan out, but a good card with it might be Oblation

Oblation 2w
instant
target nonland permanent's controller shuffles it into his library and then draws two cards.

...or something like that

Anyway, it works rather well with the centaurs since they are yours.

The Rack

08-30-2007, 05:51 PM

You don't control the tokens created by the horror. You own them but don't control them.

Tacosnape

08-30-2007, 06:26 PM

Thanks for clarifying that. I see it, I'm just still trying to get my mind out of Urza Block and into today's game. I'm getting there.

Your mana base and Pikula's seem more responsible, for lack of a better term. In the event there are Needles or Extirpates it's always good to have a back up. I guess my biggest issue was looking at Red Death. If someone did extirpate their Badlands or grabbed one out of the hand or LD'd it, they would be without red for the game.

As you said, it has to do with the deck itself and how vital the splashed cards are to your game. Also how too many Fetches can affect you life wise if there are other "suicidal" factors involved.

Red Death, in large part, doesn't have to worry about things like Extirpate on Badlands because Red Death just wants to kill you as fast as humanly possible. If a deck gets to the point where it has time to hit a Badlands and Extirpate it, it's already reached stability and Red Death's not happy by this point (Although there are exceptions, I think I'm still the only person who has ever decked someone while piloting Red Death.)

No variant of B/W Confidant will ever have the aggressive speed Red Death does. What it gets in place are better control cards like STP and Vindicate. This makes it a little more versatile, a better home for Confidant, but a bit slower and more controlling, meaning a greater need for a more stable manabase.

As a general rule, the slower your deck is to kill, the more resilient your manabase needs to be.

thefreakaccident

08-30-2007, 07:13 PM

so, for a mainly aggro-control meta... with little bits of every thing else, what build would you guys suggest?

I recently lost my sinkholes, so I have been running smallpox... which hasn't been half bad for me so far.

here is the current list (not that different from classic Ale)

lands//23
5 swamp
4 scrubland
2 godless shrine
4 bloodstained mire
4 polluted delta
4 wasteland

creatures//11
4 dark confidant
4 hypnotic specter
3 nantuko shade

spells//26
4 duress
4 hymm to tourach
4 small pox
4 dark ritual
4 vindicate
3 extripate
3 cursed scroll

sideboard// (changes always)
generally speaking

4 engineered plague
4 engineered explosives
4 withered wretch
3 swords to plowshares

The addition of extripate seems to be helping a lot (make them discard a FoW and never see it again)... it also screws with poeple's manabases when you extripate a dual. Vindicate a critical part of their deck and extripate it.
the cursed scroll helps against control... it is harder to remove than a creature (plus it is pretty solid against goblins).

wretch helps against decks that require the grave (looking at ichorid, loam, breakfast, and survival here)... EE takes care of many problem cards the deck might face + ETW tokens.

tell me what you guys think about this current list of mine.

Hummingbird TG

09-01-2007, 01:57 AM

4 Smallpoxes are too many dead cards, IMHO.

Citrus-God

09-01-2007, 07:10 AM

Gahh.... Well, I'll update my Aggro build I guess....

// Mana 23
3 Chrome Mox
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
4 Scrubland
1 Godless Shrine
5 Swamp

// Creatures 18
4 Carnophage
4 Spectral Lynx
4 Dark Confidant
3 Nantuko Shade
3 Aven Mindcensor

// Spells 19
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
3 Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard 15
4 Yilix Jailer
4 Engineered Plague
3 Meekstone
4 Engineered Explosives

Why isnt Dark Ritual in here? Because Chrome Mox does it better. Deadguy Ale tends to have very explosive starts with Ritual, but it turns into a Giant Growth for Shade later as the game progresses... This is bad... Chrome Mox can at least do this; 1st turn Hymn, 2nd turn Vindicate. Dark Ritual can never produce a 2n turn Vindicate.

Also, Mindcensor was tech Hanni and I used for awhile. He moved into Rockguy, but I stuck around with Confidant.

Another list I have is a more controlling list. The deck wins by disrupting to stall time, and has tons of efficient creatures to wall myself in, meanwhile Aven Mindcensor and Hyppie go in for the kill...

// Mana 26
4 Dark Ritual
4 Wasteland
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
4 Scrubland
1 Godless Shrine
8 Swamp

// Creatures 18
4 Spectral Lynx
4 Dark Confidant
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Nantuko Shade
3 Aven Mindcensor

// Spells 16
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate

// Sideboard 15
Undecided yet

Hummingbird TG

09-01-2007, 08:34 AM

Why cutting the Jotun Grunts? Is the Lynx that much better against Thresh? It doesn't beat other than for 2, it doesnt hose the grave, but both can be removed...or is that extra blocker so important?

Citrus-God

09-01-2007, 09:38 AM

Why cutting the Jotun Grunts? Is the Lynx that much better against Thresh? It doesn't beat other than for 2, it doesnt hose the grave, but both can be removed...or is that extra blocker so important?

It's just that, this is a late game deck that loves late game advantages. I never saw anything wrong with Lynx standing back while Avens and Specters beat them to a bloody pulp.

Persoally, I dont like Aven Mindcensors very much, but it's good against Combo and fetchlands. But right now, I might cut Mindcensors for Grunts.

electrolyze

09-01-2007, 04:09 PM

tomorrow i have a tourney and i'm gonna play this list:

creatures:

2xspectral lynx
4xdark confidant
3xnantuko shade
3xjotun grunt

artifacts:

3xengineered explosives

sorceries:
4xhymn
4xduress
4xsinkhole
3xvindicate

instants:
4xdark ritual
4xswords to plowshares

land:
1xtomb of urami
1xtainted field
4xbloodstained mire
4xscrubland
8xswamp
4xwasteland

sb:

4xchainer's edict
4xwithered wretch
4xengineered plague
3xdisenchant

are there any things that can be better because the tourney is tommorow and i expect much aggro-control and especially thresh/gro so i think i have a better change to win with this list from that decks.

Hummingbird TG

09-02-2007, 12:10 AM

The 4th EE? Some Dystopia? Those are some good against Thresh. So is Smallpox, if you can resolve it...

Hummingbird TG

09-09-2007, 11:34 AM

I guess it's fast, how this deck falls to second page... Anyone can advise me further on this list? It's got two missing slots, which used to be sinkholes...

Mana

4 Scrubland
4 Bloodstained MIre
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Ritual
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Volrath's Stronghold
5 Swamp

Creatures

4 Dark Confidant
3 Nantuko Shade
2 Jotun Grunt
2 Tombstalker

Other

3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Unmask
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate
1 Chainer's Edict/Diabolic Edict

Sideboard

4 Leyline of the Void (or should I run Planar Void?)
4 Engineered Plague
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Dystopia

Maindeck total 58...

LordEvilTeaCup

09-09-2007, 01:09 PM

Well the White Death show must go on! I will just throw up the list Suckerpunch had in his thread.

White Death

//Disruption
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole

//Creatures
4 Dark Confidant/Nantuko Shade/Smallpox
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Phyrexian Negator
3 Jotun Grunt

//Other
4 Dark Ritual
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate

//Lands
5 Swamp
4 Scrubland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland

//Sideboard
3 Jitte
3 Tormod’s Crypt
4 Engineered Plague
1 Darkblast
4 Ghostly Prison

I was thinking that it is still viable to have Dystopia in the Sideboard if the only white permanent is the Grunt. Also, I think Nantuko Shade would be the best card outta Dark Confidant and Smallpox.

Hummingbird TG

09-09-2007, 01:11 PM

If you're cutting Dark Confidant, this isn't the thread for you. The thread is freakin' named B/w Confidant for a reason.

thefreakaccident

09-09-2007, 01:17 PM

Confidant is the single card that makes the deck good... otherwise My build would simply run out of gas (meaning I go in TD mode). If you were to cut anything, cut the grunt for shade, that would make dystopia much better.

List looks alright besides that.

electrolyze

09-09-2007, 01:21 PM

i think you have to play more removal for negator because you dont want your negator to be blocked. i think hypnotic specter is not that good in our meta so i prefer spectral lynxes over hyppie's.

i think engineered explosives is a very strong card in the deck.

here's my latest build:

4xdark confidant
3xspectral lynx
3xnantuko shade
2xjotun grunt

4xstp
4xdark ritual

3xengineered explosives

4xsinkhole
4xhymn
4xduress
3xvindicate

1xtomb of urami
1xtainted field
4xwasteland
4xscrubland
8xswamp
4xbloodstained mire

sb:

4xchainer's edict
4xengineered plague
4xwithered wretch
3xdisenchant

i've becomed 9th on my last tourney with this list(i had been in the t8 if i hadnt drawed the last round:wink: because after i drawed, we played a game wich i won:tongue:

my matches wee against:

pox-2-0
aggro elves-2-0
meathooks-0-2
kavu stompy-2-0
kavu stompy-draw(but actually i won with-2-0)

and in all the matches my spectral lynxes and explosives were very usefull and i didnt need my hyppie's all the time.

it was a tourney with 40 people so i was very happy about the results.

maybe i change 3xlynx and 2xgrunt to 3xgrunt and 2xlynx becuase there were but only 2 or 3 gro/threshold decks.

Hummingbird TG

09-09-2007, 01:37 PM

Congrats on the nice finish. But, why only 3 Vindicate?

LordEvilTeaCup

09-09-2007, 01:40 PM

If you're cutting Dark Confidant, this isn't the thread for you. The thread is freakin' named B/w Confidant for a reason.

Heh, unfortunately there isn't much choice in that regard. The White Death topic was locked... It would be cool if they were two different topics, but I don't think that will happen now. With that said, White Death does not need the confidants as much as Deadguy Ale does. Still, Confidant could still be better in White Death. Shade and Confidant discussions usually go in circles so I respect either decision.

electrolyze

09-09-2007, 01:45 PM

Congrats on the nice finish. But, why only 3 Vindicate?

i used but 3 vindicates because i play engineered explosives too.
i know vinidcate is really good but i discovered most of the time i destroy with vindicate the same thing that i can destroy with explosives too.

and i have confidant so i have more change to draw a vindicate and i dont needed it more then explosives in the games i played(most of the time i play against goblins, belcher and threshold)

Hummingbird TG

09-10-2007, 11:15 AM

Anyone has comments / suggestions on my build posted above?

electrolyze

09-10-2007, 11:41 AM

the list looks very strong but very different from other lists.

i like the top-confidant synergy in your deck but how works the single edict and the unmasks for you.

i really like volrath's stronghold in your build and im gonnan test him too i think.

maybe you should test tomb of urami because it is a really good card as a 1-off land and is has synergie with grunt and tombstalker too.

Hummingbird TG

09-11-2007, 06:51 AM

True. But I think having an opponent StP me of all my lands it abit dangerous...especially when I'm running Tombstaler already for a big beater and rarely have trouble casting the 'Stalker... The single edict is because I don't want to run Swords to Plowshares maindeck, for these reasons: 1) It doesn't pitch to Unmask 2) Scrublands are Wasteable 3) It doesn't hit Mongoose. Although I may probably change my mind about running words in future if edict doesn't test well. Edict is a recent addition, after all.

Unmask is Dark Ritual 5-6 against Combo, where I desperately need to cast turn 1 Disruption. It also lets the deck go aggro against control with the right hands, in theory. The fact that it isn't dead against Gobbos and can get Tarmogoyf/Goose never hurts.

Discussion:

Planar Void or Leyline of the Void? Is the chance to play it for free and uncounterably worth more than the fact that it can potentially be a dead draw and hurt you when revealed to Bob? Does the fact that opening hand Leylines are uncounterable help against Breakfast and Thresh?

jebus

09-11-2007, 09:34 PM

Mana

4 Scrubland
4 Bloodstained MIre
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Ritual
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Volrath's Stronghold
5 Swamp

Creatures

4 Dark Confidant
3 Nantuko Shade
2 Jotun Grunt
2 Tombstalker

Other

3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Unmask
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate
1 Chainer's Edict/Diabolic Edict

Sideboard

4 Leyline of the Void (or should I run Planar Void?)
4 Engineered Plague
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Dystopia

Even with SDT, I think 8 fetches are a wee bit too much. 6 should be fine, and 7 is pushing it. Also, I don't think you should run Tombstalker and Jotun Grunt together, as they just get in each other's way. Personally, I'd run just the Grunts - it messes with Tarmogoyfs and doesn't slap you for 8 life when you pull it off the top with a Confidant. Sure, SDT will fix your draws so you can avoid this, but accidents do happen.

If you're going to run the Stalkers and/or Grunts, then Planar Void is a no-go.

With 2 slots left, you could go up to 3 Edicts, or +1 EE +1 Edict. OR you can remove the Edict and fit some Sinkholes back in.

thefreakaccident

09-11-2007, 09:43 PM

Wallace

09-11-2007, 09:44 PM

I am currently testing this list and it seems to work great!

3 Scrubland
3 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Swamp

4 Dark Confidant
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Hypnotic Specter

4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate
4 Sinkhole
2 Cursed Scroll
2 Sensei's Divining Top

jebus

09-11-2007, 09:52 PM

With everybody weakening their manabases, I think this deck should simply refocus on what it used to do... land destruction + discard + beats, I feel that if this were played at the next DLD it would probably place very high.

I'm not so sure if it will place that well, but it will be nasty. Especially a build with 2-3 Smallpox maindeck just to bring the LD/discard over the top while providing some creature kill as well.

Maybe something like:
18 Swamp/Fetch/Scrubland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Wasteland
4 Ritual
3 Smallpox
4 Vindicate
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn
4 Duress
4 Confidant
3 Shade
3 Grunt
4 Slots: Hyppie? Scroll? EE?

EDIT: I just realized that with Smallpox maindeck, Hyppie (or some other creature) becomes a must, just to assure you have enough threats. The Stronghold helps in that department as well.

Sacearuse:
Your build is actually similar to another deck in the Established Decks Forum, Rockguy: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6238

Wallace

09-11-2007, 10:24 PM

I'm not so sure if it will place that well, but it will be nasty. Especially a build with 2-3 Smallpox maindeck just to bring the LD/discard over the top while providing some creature kill as well.

Maybe something like:
18 Swamp/Fetch/Scrubland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Wasteland
4 Ritual
3 Smallpox
4 Vindicate
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn
4 Duress
4 Confidant
3 Shade
3 Grunt
4 Slots: Hyppie? Scroll? EE?

EDIT: I just realized that with Smallpox maindeck, Hyppie (or some other creature) becomes a must, just to assure you have enough threats. The Stronghold helps in that department as well.

Sacearuse:
Your build is actually similar to another deck in the Established Decks Forum, Rockguy: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6238

Small Pox does just thst, Kills your Confidant and one of your already sparce alnd, and makes you lose a card out of a hand that is already sure to be low. It should be ok though cuz your oppenent is not playing blue right? :cry:

jebus

09-11-2007, 10:38 PM

Wallace

09-11-2007, 10:42 PM

The land count is up to 23 in my sample build to accomodate Spox. And what's the problem if he is playing blue? If it gets countered then nothing lost. And anyway, Spox is primarily the finisher for your disruption, making it that much more difficult for an opponent to recover.

You could easily go -3 Spox -1 Land, and combined with the 4 undecided cards, you have 8 slots to fit in added threats (Negator / Hyppie / Lynx), creature control (Scroll / Plague) and utiliy (SDT / EE).

What I ment with He's playing blue is He will just draw more cards while you sit there and recover from your own spell. You really need to hit your curve with this deck. Missing a land drop or having a land blow up reaqlly disrupts the decks flow.

jebus

09-11-2007, 10:48 PM

I do agree that a desperation Spox, when you're even with or behind your opponent in resources, is a very bad idea, especially against Blue. But as I said, Spox should come at the tail end of your disruption, when all the Hymns/Sinks/Vindicates have given you a decided advantage. It's basically kicking your opponent while he's already down, to keep him down where he belongs. It's all in how you time it (a similar discussion on when to time disruption actually came up in the Vaka Pox thread).

Hummingbird TG

09-12-2007, 08:51 AM

You don't need to keep in Smallpoxes as the final blow to a disrupted opponent. Tombstalker and Grunt and Shade allow you to kill him fast, hopefully before he recovers, and remember, Tomstalker flies.

jebus

09-12-2007, 09:09 AM

My bringing up Smallpox is just in response to thefreakaccident's suggestion to go back to the deck's basics - particularly landkill - in response to the current trend of weakening manabases. If you don't like it, then don't run it. All I'm saying is that it does have a place in the deck if you want to go back to focusing on disruption.

By the way, Hummingbird_TG, I posted comments on your deck on the previous page.

Hummingbird TG

09-12-2007, 09:52 AM

Even with SDT, I think 8 fetches are a wee bit too much. 6 should be fine, and 7 is pushing it. Also, I don't think you should run Tombstalker and Jotun Grunt together, as they just get in each other's way. Personally, I'd run just the Grunts - it messes with Tarmogoyfs and doesn't slap you for 8 life when you pull it off the top with a Confidant. Sure, SDT will fix your draws so you can avoid this, but accidents do happen.

If you're going to run the Stalkers and/or Grunts, then Planar Void is a no-go.

With 2 slots left, you could go up to 3 Edicts, or +1 EE +1 Edict. OR you can remove the Edict and fit some Sinkholes back in.

Oh, yes. Thanks for the advice on Planar Void. I had forgotten it does that! Silly me.

The two empty slots in the list I posted, though, you see, were initially Sinkholes. But I never liked them against many decks, as they only answer lands, not really affecting threats most decks pose(43 land is a different story).

6 Shuffle effects are too few for SDT. Furthermore, it would never hurt(fine, other than 1 life) to give fuel to Grunt and Stalker. And I'd pay 1 life anyday to pay :1: of Tombstalker's manacost.

jebus

09-12-2007, 11:46 AM

Hummingbird TG:
I do suppose 6 may be spreading your fetches a bit too thin... Have you tried 7 fetches with 2 U,ToY instead of the 8/1 configuration?

I really don't like Grunt and Stalker together, as the two just clash. Drawing one if you've already played the other will simply suck. Again, SDT may present a solution to this by simply filtering your draws to assure that things go smoothly, but I'd rather not be too dependent on it. It's always better to have cards that generally work well with each other, regardless of circumstance. I'd go -2 Stalker, +1 Grunt.

That's 1 extra slot... adding your 2 already open slots, as well as the dubious 1-of Edict, gives you 4 slots to work with. Those can be any combination of Sinkhole, Hyppie, Mindcensor, Lynx, Scroll, Negator, Edict, or additional copies of Shade / EE.

Hummingbird TG

09-12-2007, 12:06 PM

Grunt is worse than Tombstalker, because Leyline of the Void simply shuts it of games 2 and 3 against Thresh anyway. The reason its still in there is because 4 Tombstalkers are too risky. Also, in a case that I have two, just playing one would be enough, as they're enough of a threat to force the opponent to answer them asap or lose.

And as for the two empty slots, I'd reckon I'll go +1 EE and +1 Death Cloud, to test out Death Cloud for a few days...

Hummingbird TG

09-13-2007, 07:12 AM

Well, I dunno what I was thinking, Death Cloud is a stupid idea...

Anyway, anyone think Exalted Angel would be good in racing Tarmogoyf? Like Tombstalker, we have the Top so we can avoid taking insane amounts of damage.

jebus

09-13-2007, 07:25 AM

Well, I dunno what I was thinking, Death Cloud is a stupid idea...

Oh god this one cracked me up :laugh: but yeah, the 1 extra slot is better served as either a 2nd Edict or a 4th Shade.

Well if you're wary of putting in the 3rd and 4th Tombstalkers, then adding Exalted Angel should amount to the same thing. Why not test the 2 slots Tombstalker already takes up in the deck as a hypothetical Exalted Angel/Tombstalker split card, and see which side is the one you end up playing / needing / wanting more?

Hummingbird TG

09-13-2007, 09:02 AM

Oh god this one cracked me up :laugh: but yeah, the 1 extra slot is better served as either a 2nd Edict or a 4th Shade.

Well if you're wary of putting in the 3rd and 4th Tombstalkers, then adding Exalted Angel should amount to the same thing. Why not test the 2 slots Tombstalker already takes up in the deck as a hypothetical Exalted Angel/Tombstalker split card, and see which side is the one you end up playing / needing / wanting more?

Well, thats a good idea. I'd try that one out.

Hummingbird TG

09-24-2007, 10:07 AM

So what's everyone think a post Thoughtseize list should look like? Personally, I'd go with 8 Duresses. What's everyone think?

Sample List:

Mana (27)

4 Scrubland
4 Bloodstained MIre
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
6 Swamp

Creatures (11)

4 Dark Confidant
3 Nantuko Shade
3 Tombstalker
1 Withered Wretch(or anything else, really. I couldn't think of any good black creature to run here.)

Other (22)

4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Vindicate
1 Diabolic Edict
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard (15)

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Engineered Plague
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Haunting Echoes (well, it's fun...and may be good against Control, too)
1 Dystopia

Well, what's everyone think? Thoughtseize kills Tarmogoyf dead...

Maveric78f

09-24-2007, 10:18 AM

Thoughtseize justifies the MD of extirpate, even if I realize that you don't even play them in SB, which is according to me a big mistake.

Hummingbird TG

09-24-2007, 10:40 AM

I would play Extirpate, but Leyline is just so much more powerful against Thresh unless you get a Goyf before they cast one...And since Thresh is the dominant deck right now, I think we should gun for it, not for Grave Combo or others.

thefreakaccident

09-24-2007, 04:46 PM

lands//23
4 scrubland
4 bloodstained mire
4 polluted delta
1 urborg tomb of yawgmouth
4 wasteland
5 swamp
1 godless shrine

creatures//11
4 dark confidant
4 hypnotic specter
3 nantuko shade

spells//26
4 vindicate
4 thoughtseize
4 duress
4 extripate
4 sinkhole
3 diabolic edict
3 cursed scroll

sideboard//
4 engineered plague
4 tormod's crypt
3 engineered explosives
1 diabolic edict
3 disenchant/serenity

I don't think that hymm is all that important anymore, because you usually want to pick and choose from what your opponent has in their hand. Sometimes I would hymm people and just miss all the goodies and then have to face those things accross from the table the next turn. With the addition of thoughtseize, the deck almost beggs for the inclusion of extripate seeing as you can tear a creature out of the opps hand then ex it. The edicts are there simply because they actually send the creatures to the yard, so you can extripate them. I also tend to see a lot of thresh, making my swords a little less appealing every time. The one godless shrine is there for extra color help (although it has rarely been an issue).

Extripate is additional LD as well, seeing as you can ruin a manabase by extripating a duel, or simply extripating a deck's few wincons. I have won many games against both thresh and landstill by simply extripating either the dudes (mishra/conclave/monastary for landstill... goose & goyf for thresh), or their duels (both of these deck require colored lands to opperate, makes your LD more devastating)... you can always extripate countermagic spells as well.

I like the new discard spell, being an answer to all first turn drops on the play, creature control, and still be able to rip a counter out of an opponents hand is simply broken (in my eyes at least).

I think that there are better cards than specter for this deck, but he is still good and I keep him in their out of preference.

The openings this deck can have are rediculous now (rit into like any 2 spells in the deck).

Hummingbird TG

09-25-2007, 06:56 AM

@thefreakaccident:

I'm really liking Extirpate in your build. I can just imagine what it'd do to Thresh; however, why Sinkhole? The entire deck is meant to be versatile, but Sinkhole only does one thing, and that is destroy lands at 2 mana. Not a very good proposition.

Why only 8 discard spells? The 3 Cursed Scrolls seem clunky as it's hard to use multiples effectively. Maybe drop to 2, and cut something else for 2 EE? I like having an MDed answer to EtW.

Benie Bederios

09-25-2007, 07:06 AM

The openings this deck can have are rediculous now (rit into like any 2 spells in the deck).

How do you Ritual without Ritual in the deck?

EDIT: ow yeah, and wasn't Hymn used because of its card advantage?

Hummingbird TG

09-26-2007, 09:12 AM

Profane Command XBB

Sorcery
Choose two - Target player loses X life; or return target creature card with converted mana cost X or less from your graveyard to play; or target creature gets -X/-X until end of turn; or up to X target creatures gain fear until end of turn.

What's everyone think? Could be nice card advantage against Goblins, is versatile, does random things and can force through a ton of damage...(Give fear to Shade + Stalker.etc, or give Shade fear in lategame then ping)

It's not really good at any one thing, sucks at killing Tarmogoyf, but does kill Gobbos all. Although it's not really efficient.

kicks_422

09-26-2007, 09:15 AM

I'm guessing it would be too expensive to actually see play here. And besides, you shouldn't be thinking of improving your Goblins MU right now with them on the decline.

Hummingbird TG

09-26-2007, 09:24 AM

True. Guess I was a little too enthusiastic...But it can return a Shade from graveyard to *play* and ping for 2, just for 4 mana...I still think it could be useful lategame as an extra threat...not very likely, but its still an option.

LordEvilTeaCup

09-26-2007, 10:48 PM

I'm guessing it would be too expensive to actually see play here. And besides, you shouldn't be thinking of improving your Goblins MU right now with them on the decline.

I am not so sure. I think Goblins with the Black splash will be in force. Thoughtseize and the few good black goblins could change things.

jebus

09-26-2007, 11:32 PM

thefreakaccident:
Why cut Hymn and keep Sinkhole? But yes, Extirpate is very good here. Maybe it has finally found a home in Deaguy and its variants?

Hummingbird_TG:
How is Profane Command card advantage against Goblins? It only kills one target creature... or can you choose the same option twice?

But yeah, it simply is too expensive.

kicks_422

09-27-2007, 12:41 AM

I am not so sure. I think Goblins with the Black splash will be in force. Thoughtseize and the few good black goblins could change things.

I don't think any of the new Goblins would find a home in Legacy. They're all either win-more, overshadowed by another, or just plain useless - though Black Goblins with Thoughtseizes as the only black card would be a viable option in the future, I agree.

Besides, 4 Plagues in the SB is enough hate for that MU. There's really nothing more you can do about it.

Hummingbird TG

09-27-2007, 06:28 AM

Hummingbird TG

09-29-2007, 09:13 AM

electrolyze

09-29-2007, 11:57 AM

i've never tried extirpate but i think it only makes youre combo mu better.

this would be the main reason to play extirpates for me.

here's my list:

4xdark confidant
3xspectral lynx
3xnantuko shade
2xjotun grunt

4xstp
4xdark ritual

3xengineered explosives

4xsinkhole
4xhymn
4xthoughtseize
3xvindicate

1xtomb of urami
1xtainted field
4xwasteland
4xscrubland
8xswamp
4xbloodstained mire

sb:

4xchainer's edict
4xengineered plague
4xwithered wretch
3xdisenchant

as you can see i have for everything a answer in this list.

maybe i could cut 1engineered exlosives, 1lynx, 1xstp for 3xextirpate main. and one extirpate side instead of an edict, because then i have in the first game already an answer on loam decks and a better combo mu.

Shriekmaw

09-29-2007, 01:06 PM

To keep this on first page:

On Extirpate:

Just to inquire what everyone thinks.

Maindecked? Sideboarded? How many? 4? How much discard must we play to successfully use it? If we're running it, do we run Leyline in the board? What do we Extirpate anyway?

Discuss please.

I don't think that Extirpate belongs in the main deck of deadguy at all. I can see a few copies in the board if you expect a lot of control/combo. I really wouldn't bother with the card for 2 reasons: first it just improves your good matchups and second I would rather have cards in the board to help fight aggro since those are your weaker matchups.

bondafong

10-01-2007, 11:22 AM

I don't think that Extirpate belongs in the main deck of deadguy at all. I can see a few copies in the board if you expect a lot of control/combo. I really wouldn't bother with the card for 2 reasons: first it just improves your good matchups and second I would rather have cards in the board to help fight aggro since those are your weaker matchups.

Agree.
I would much rather play 4 duress, 4 thoughtseize and 4 hymn.
More hand-disruption aren't needed - and 12 discard-spells should be enough to screw with most combo-decks.
I would consider to pack 3-4 in the sideboard if the local metagame have a lot of caphalid breakfast, or other gy-based strategies.
But even there i feel that 4 Planer Void is better.

Hummingbird TG

10-06-2007, 11:18 AM

To inject some life into this dead thread, and get this back on page 1 where it belongs:

On Tombstalker: what's everyone think?

Pros

-Evasion
-Beats for 5, basically costs 2, but doesn't require constant mana investment like Shade

Cons

-Can't play Planar Void
-Can't be played for an early blocker, unlike Shade
-Is painful to reveal to Bob

One thing to note is that against Thresh, Tombstalker should be bigger than Goyf, and thus able to block/trade with it.

So, Tombstalker or no?

electrolyze

10-06-2007, 12:03 PM

i think when you run tombstalker, you must run top too and then you have too cut too much good cards in the deck for just one creature. and instead of wich other creature you wan to run it because shade can kick most of the time harder, grunt is even better against thresh.(grunt+tombstalker is a really bad combination)

and i play spectral lynx instead of tombstalkers because i really like them and they have won many games for me. tombstalker may be much bigger, but it is target no1 for your opponent.

enough about tombstalker, im testing volrath's stronhold at this moment as a 1-off and it works really good for me. should i keep this card int he deck, because i think its a very good card to get your creatures back and play them again and again.

greets, electrolyze

Hummingbird TG

10-06-2007, 08:21 PM

IMO, depends. Personally, my list is rather black heavy(Shades, Stalker, Hymn cost BB and alot of thge rest have B in their manacosts), so I personally wouldn't want to go above 4 colorless lands. However, if your list is less color-intensive, or you run more Urborgs, go ahead, I guess.

About Tombstalker: Isn't Grunt too one of Thresh's first targets? But at least Tombstalker is black, which is easier to manage than white with Wastelands floating around and such...Also, against weenie decks, Grunt can be Chump-blocked, and eitherway takes 5 turns to kill, while Tombstalker takes 4 turns.

JimmyC27

10-06-2007, 10:02 PM

Hey guys, I was debating between 2 Jotun Grunts, or extra copies of Specter and Shade.. hopefully someone has some useful insight for me. :)

22 Land

4 Dark Confidant
3 Nantuko Shade
3 Hypnotic Specter
2 Jotun Grunt (Possibly -2 Grunt, +1 Shade, +1 Specter ???)

4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Ritual
4 Vindicate
4 Sinkhole
3 Sword to Plowshares

Hummingbird TG

10-07-2007, 02:06 AM

4 Specters is too much. I would run 1 Shade and 1 Grunt/Tombstalker over 2 Grunts.

Hummingbird TG

10-10-2007, 07:25 AM

Anyone played this at the Epic DLD? Any news about this deck, at all? Reports? Certainly someone must have...

Wallace

10-10-2007, 10:12 AM

Anyone played this at the Epic DLD? Any news about this deck, at all? Reports? Certainly someone must have...

As far as I know there were two Dead Guy decks, a Sui Black and a Red Death. I played one of the dead guy builds round one and lost. He sided in 4 x Seal of Clensing and drew them all FTW. O' well.

rsaunder

10-10-2007, 03:14 PM

As far as I know there were two Dead Guy decks, a Sui Black and a Red Death. I played one of the dead guy builds round one and lost. He sided in 4 x Seal of Clensing and drew them all FTW. O' well.Whit3_Ghost beat nightmare with my almost-most-recent-list round like 3 or something.

Hummingbird TG

10-11-2007, 08:57 AM

Whit3_Ghost beat nightmare with my almost-most-recent-list round like 3 or something.

Ah. Could we see the list? For discussion purposes or something? Or is there going to be a report? Thanks!

rsaunder

10-11-2007, 04:21 PM

Ah. Could we see the list? For discussion purposes or something? Or is there going to be a report? Thanks!

SB was jank, MB was pretty standard, 3 grunt, 3 hippy, 3 shade, 4 bob creature base with sinkholes and 3 smallpox. Also, 1 other card I'd rather not release if it's managed to stay secretish so far main. If I found it leaked elsewhere, I'll toss it up here too, but for now I think it's still secret. I don't know about a report, it may be in the Announcements/reports section?

Oh yeah, and you're playing a bad deadguy variant if you're running less than 3 grunts main. It IS necessary.

rsaunder

10-11-2007, 09:11 PM

Thoughtseize. What are our thoughts on it? I picked up a playset at the EPIC and have been playing them in here a bit to see how it rolls.

Truth be told, from a purely agressive standpoint, thoughtseize rounds out the manacurve perfectly (I cut sinkhole for it in the trial version), bringing you up to 12 solid turn 1 plays. It also nabs goyf, which is really smexy.

Problem is, this deck already did almost as much damage to it'self as it could and not lose games before losing 2-4 life a game from thoughtseize. Life always seems like an expendable resource, but at some point, it becomes a primary concern. With 4 Bob, 4 thoughtseize and 6-8 fetches in the deck, that's a lot of damage, 6-8* damage in my testing (goldfishing) on average each game. That's hardly acceptable, starting the game at 13. Any opponent with reach should be able to finish off whatever life you have left after you stabilize.

*Bob averages about 1 damage a turn in my build.

Now, there seem to be a couple sollutions to this. One is don't run thoughtseize; the 1cc card I know I, as a deadguy player have been waiting for since I picked up the deck. Another is cut down on other life loss: Bob and thoughtseize are okay, but imho, saclands make it too much. Can we rework the manabase? Bob certainly can't go... The third option is to run life gain. But what life gain doesn't suck? Verdict was abandoned by all but some sketchy builds due to its difficulty to cast, and it might not even net you any life unless you hit two of your own lands last game. Renewed faith can either cantrip or gain a really significant amount of life, but once again, does it suck too much? What other life gain is there? Descendant of Kamarawhatever means the manabase goes up in flames to hit double white. E. Angel seems out of our manacurve, requires WW and makes bob a liability (but it's soooo damn goooood...). Uhh, healing solve ftw?

So has anyone else experimented with this next logical step? Had similar results? Have any ideas on how to fix it?

EDIT: Ghostly prison to make less creatures attack you and therfore life not be as much of a problem? I dunno, I'm grasping for ideas here.

LordEvilTeaCup

10-11-2007, 10:36 PM

A crude solution would be to run 3 thoughtseizes and 1 duress as a singleton. Its kinda of counter-intuitive, but it lowers the probability of seeing multiple seizes at a time. I doubt that this is optimal, but at least it is a start.

Whit3 Ghost

10-11-2007, 11:05 PM

Hummingbird TG

10-12-2007, 12:49 AM

As White Ghost suggested, we could run some finisher. But how good is Negator when he's in a meta with Tarmogoyf, where every large 2-mana beater played(well, almost) outclasses him? I suggest Tombstalker+ Top; he flies over Tarmogoyf, at 5/5 he's likely to be bigger than Thresh's at 4/5. He also costs 2...and Tombstalker closes games so fast it does reduce the damage you take, or he stalls thresh for a moment untill you find EE or Vindicate or something to clear their attackers, then beat them in the air for 5.

Galroth

10-12-2007, 01:12 AM

I've come across this problem of life-loss several times whenever I try one of my endless attempting to splash a secondary color into any sort of discard oriented black deck. The dual colors almost always requires fetches, confidant, and thoughtseize. It does hurt alot, but I'm fairly certain the benefits of these options outweighs the pain of life loss. That said, how can we mitigate that life loss with other cards.

A few ideas:

1: Spinning Darkness and/or Soul Spike - both of these cards really aren't good unless the rest of your deck is designed to work with them. An idea, but not a feasible one in my opinion for Deadguy

2: Rework your manabase to support double white. This one has been mentioned, and it isn't a horrible idea. I've never been fully satisfied with Deadguy's creature base anyways. Thoughtseize will buy you a half turn more than this deck is used to. Exalted as a 2-of would be hot. Descendant of Kiyomaro was always a cool idea. It's a bit rough on the double black costs, but to make room I could easily see dropping to 3x of Sinkhole or Hymn or both. Plus ritual helps make up for your double black needs.

3: Sensei's Diving Top - this has been the best I've tested thus far. It syncs quite naturally with fetches, lets you order your draw off of Confidant usually yielding considerably less life loss, and it files away Thoughseize when Discard isn't what you need late game. Plus, it takes precious few deck slots and no other real significant changes, while offering several benefits. The real question is usually what to cut. In essence you're cutting business spells for deck manipulation.

Hummingbird TG

10-12-2007, 01:38 AM

Well, my SDT list is as folows:

Mana

4 Dark Ritual
4 Scrubland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
6 Swamp

Creatures

4 Dark Confidant
3 Nantuko Shade
3 Tombstalker
1 Withered Wretch <--yes, it's random. But I'm not running Grunts, anyway; 3 Tombstalkers are enough late=game cards.

Other

4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Vindicate
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Diabolic Edict
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Top is quite good in filtering your draws, it also enables you to run big scary monsters like Tombstalker.

rsaunder

10-12-2007, 02:56 PM

Why in the nine hells are people cutting grunt for tombstalker again? I realize that it is an amazing finisher and all but come on now, 2 for a 4/4 that destroys graveyards and replenishes your threat density? In today's meta? I think that grunt is absolutely necissary.

A couple of tops could be fit into the deck easily (-1 duress -1 thoughtseize?) and the discard could be dropped that way as well. That retains the 1-drop count (4 rit, 3 duress, 3 seize, 2 top), eliminates some of the pain from bob (I'm guessing an average of 1/2 points a game, as you don't always have mana open and certainly dont always draw top.) I personally like it, although I may be reworking the manabase to have more tainted field and less sac-land after some testing this weekend.

@The Big Creature Finisher: We went over this in this thread a while back (like a loong while) and realized that it didn't really work like that. Creatures in deadguy have to serve two distinct purposes; to disrupt and to attack. Now, obviously, shade is in clear violation of these rules, but he is the deck's "Fat finisher" and deals with any resolved big threats later game. Adding other fatties should take shade's slot, as you don't want to cut control elements to run sub-par creatures (...negator...), even if it does speed up the goldfish. In this meta, you are not playing a goldfish and will sac your board to negator on a regular basis. If you want to sac everything to a 5/5, I'd suggest tomb of uruami as it can eat into land slots. Back when this was discussed, negator was dismissed for just that reason and interestingly, Juzzam came up as a favorable replacement. Then came the whining about the pricetag and then came plague sliver. Then everyone realized that these guys can get chump blocked into oblivion and the lack of evasion killed it. Now since I'm too lazy to look back, I'll take you on my own personal mental voyage. I thought of adding avatar of discord, but the problem with lightning bolt made him as bad as negator. I thought of every crappy creature, and shade is the best because he isn't totally useless early game and gets bigger than anything else late game. I also ended up adding a songleton Tomb of Uruami, which everyone on my team seemed to love. Perhaps you could run two if you feel like you need to seal the deal faster? And tombstalker requires you cut grunt. That is logic enough not to even consider it, imho. Perhaps in other splashes.

Spinning Darkness: I found this bad boy too last night, and a couple problems come up. One is the lack of synergy with grunt. Another is the deck's inability to target it's own creatures in an emergency. Another is that 3 targeted damage doesnt acually kill anything worth killing in this format. The 6cc not withstanding, I think it's out.

I'll be running my list -1 duress -1 seize +2 top this evening and report back before tomorrow's tournament.

lolosoon

10-12-2007, 03:38 PM

(Great weel-argued post)
Totally agree with you @ Grunts. They have to be ran as a 3-of imho. They help a bit vs Goyf (still, this monster lives longer than the Grunts) and are great beatdown meat.

I'm waiting for your report !!

My critters base has been 4xBob, 4xHippies, 3xShades, x3Grunts for a while. Still, I wonder about the Hippies count and presence, but SpellSnare resiliency and brokeness of an unanswered Ritual+Hippy 1st turn make them stay in.

With the addition of ThoughtSeize, and the fact that Jitte became too slow (and less of a use since Goblin see less an less play in my meta), I've put back 3x Gerrard's Verdict MD for the LifeGain//Added Disruption.

For now, Hymns, Thoughtseize, Duress and Verdicts run smoothly, with great 1st and 2nd turn guaranteed disruption.

I've had good results with this list :
4 Dark Ritual
4 Scrubland
5 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Tainted Field

4 Dark Confidant
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Nantuko Shade
3 Jotun Grunt

4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize
3 Duress
3 Gerrard's Verdict
3 Vindicate
4 Sinkhole
4 Sword to Plowshare

SB:
4x PlanarVoid
4x Dystopia
4x E.Plague
3x Pithing Needle (or 1xDuress 2xEE when there's storm combo in the air...)

With no Tombstalker, I'm not in need of SDT tricks. Bob and heavy discard are enought CA imho, and I dislike Tops ain't disruption//threat by themselves. I may miss something, but I don't miss them for now...

Whit3 Ghost

10-12-2007, 08:16 PM

Fit and you Know It: A Quick EPIC DLD Report
List:
5 Swamp
7 Fetch
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Ritual

4 Duress
4 Hymn
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
4 Confident
3 Smallpox
3 Grunt
3 Hyppie
3 Shade
2 Anaba Grunt

SB:
3 Dystopia
2 Anaba Grunt
4 Planar Void (complete piece of shit waste of a slot, it should have been Tsabo's web/pithing needle)
3 Extirpate
1 Perish
2 Serenity

Round One: Guy I Don't Know(actual source name) with LANDS! splash black.
Game 1: He ports me to oblivion and gets an active loam. I don't get black mana and am unable to get a Grunt on board to give me a chance.

Game 2: Hyppie and Bobs combined with LD go the distance although he very nearly stabilized.

Game 3: I get some early beats/disruption and he Mulches into the win.
Note: I would like to apologize for sloppyness and general asshatery in this match. Hopefully I can not suck next time we play.

Round Two: IDK Name, 3 Color Goblins
Note: I am assigned a gameloss for a misregged deck, but it was actually a miscount and I get the GL removed, so nuts to all of those who cried out 59 card landstill.

Game 1: I play the disruption route and am able to keep him off of mana despite him drawing 3 AEther Vial (one was duressed, the other met a Vindicate and he was dead before the third mattered). I chump with guys while Hyppie flies over things and keeps him from holding guys. Grunt crashes the party and puts the game away.

Game 2: I make a stupid play mistake and die to a Keg taking out my Bob and Shade. Whatever, we go to game 3.

Game 3: He mulls to 4 and I have a turn 1 Hyppie and a turn 2 Hymn. Urami rises from the dead to finish this one.

Round 3: TheBirdMan with crazy survival
Game 1: He beats me to death with a bunch of little guys and a Magus of the Moon. I smallpox a swamp instead of a nonbasic and proceed to not draw another one.

Game 2: I extirpate squee and he topdecks a creature to go nuts on my face with Akroma. Magus also keeps me off of white for the second time.

Round 3: Nightmare with Eternal Garden
Game 1: Top goes nuts on my face, but he plays a Trinisphere and I lock him under it with 15 LD spells.

Game 2: He gets a turn 2 Mage on Vindicate, turn 3 Chalice at 2. I can't draw Hypnotic Specters to block.

Game 3: This is the worst game ever. He keeps a hand with one land and 2 diamond. I rit out a Hyppie and Duress taking a Smokestack or something of the sort. He topdecks a Maze of Ith, but instead of discarding it to Diamond and Loaming it back, he simply plays it and passes turn. He then forgets to activate the Maze on the Specter and that's all she wrote.

Round 5: Nantuko Shady with Belcher
Game 1: ETW for a million, I can't find an answer.
Game 2: I keep a hand of Duress, Anaba Grunt and a Vindicate. I draw 6 lands and lose to a Belcher.

Round 6: Jim with Death Cloud
Games 1: Kokusho beats my face in as he is able to answer my first few threats.
Game 2: He chumps an early Grunt into oblivion and is able to overwhelm me under midgame threats and a resolved Crucible.

My one thought is to sideboard Pithing Needle. It would have been the nut high in so many of my matchups.

Hummingbird TG

10-12-2007, 10:55 PM

Hm...regarding Tombstalker VS Grunt:

If you run Leyline or Planar Void postboard, Grunt is a dead card. However, Tombstalker+Leyline means your opponent's Goyfs become very sad. And, even with Leyline out it's still a fine finisher; compared to Grunts.

Grunts are also a 5 turn clock. Without evasion. Against decks that don't use the graveyard much, he's just a chumpable 4/4. Tombstalker is a 4 turn clock, which saves you a full turn, and he blocks most flyers that see play in the format too. Also he doesn't die to Deed or Smother(becoming very popular with Goyf around) or EE@2 which otherwise rapes this deck.

Tombstalker and Shade serve the same purpose, almost. They disrupt the opponent's plan to beat you in the face.

About Rsaunder's argument about finishers, whatever he points out about Djinn and Sliver don't apply to Tombstalker. How often does one find flyers chumping Tombstalker, unlike a ground-based 5/5? Tombstalker, too, doesn't cause you lifeloss on its own. Tombstalker, also, unlike Tomb, doesn't cause you to lose to a StoP, and, isn't Wasteable or cause you to lose life, as earlier mentioned.

On Engineered Explosives: I can't see why a control deck wouldn't run this. 4 mana Wraths away Bear and Goyf, 3 Vengeances away Lackey and Vial, and also kills Goose. It can be played fr BBW to kill Counterbalance(since when does Thresh run 3cc?) too. It's versatile enoguh to be what the deck wants to do, run cards that achieve as many things as possible. Compared to StP which can't kill Goose and is pretty limited in tis role, I personally believe EE is a better main choice.

@Whit3_Ghost: why was Planar Void useless? Can elaborate a little on this one?

Whit3 Ghost

10-12-2007, 11:23 PM

@Whit3_Ghost: why was Planar Void useless? Can elaborate a little on this one?
I didn't play against Ichorid or Breakfast. Against survival it would have been nice, but it would have been good in multiples only. He knew my decklist and I know that he had maindeck removal for it.

Needle would have been better in every way shape and form.

lolosoon

10-13-2007, 07:11 AM

@Hummingbird : I agree that Leyline + TombStalker >> Grunts when facing Goyfs and other GY strategies. But when I MD Grunts, I have a body AND GY hate coming at the cost of two, not at a theorically freaking twelve lifepoints loss with confidant out.
Still, if you're running 3xSDT MD, which I don't (the free slots for Tops are hard to find), I can see why you prefer your proposed disruption package. That and the fact Tombstalker is a better finisher by itself.

@Engineered Explosives/StP : I like beeing the beatdown when playing Magic, even with Deadguy which I agree is a more controlish deck by essence. Thought, I hate to see my threats beeing held in respect by bigger critters or good blockers (like Goyfs mainly, and Lynx in the mirror).
Sure, EE is a more versatile card, but it doesn't permit your threats make their way through opp's defense like StP does. Wiping away Bears & Goyfs with one card is hot, having to sac your own Confidant and Shades (and Grunt in my case) doing this is not. Furthermore, StP get rid of (one of-)them for W, not BW2, it slows my tempo less down. That and that and the fact that Daze, Stifle and SpellSnare do nothing to the instant-speed white removal spell.
I don't care of mongeese, their bodies aren't fat enough, Shades and Grunts take care of'em for me.
Sure, beside of Threshold, getting rid of Survival, Vial, Needle and the like among other things is impossible with StP, but early Discard and Vindicate are already packed in for that.
In short, I think I fear EE is too much redundancy for my build... even if sometimes redundancy means consistency.

Errr... I'm certain sb has already ask it, but why DeadGuy Ale doesn't belong to the DTB/DTW thread ? Due to its less popularity, T8 results or of a non-commonly agreed decklist ?!?

(I hope I made my statements understable and grammatically correct as English is a foreign language for me...)

Hummingbird TG

10-13-2007, 08:18 AM

SpellSnare does nothing to EE. Instead of paying BW for it, I just pay BBW.

Also, on DTB/DTW, probably due to lack of popularity/t8s.

Whit3 Ghost

10-13-2007, 10:21 AM

Also Anaba Grunt =/= Plague in my list.
In other words, I beat Goblins without Plagues. Even with him mulling to 4, if he kept a hand of 7 I still feel that I would have won the game.

Hummingbird TG

10-13-2007, 10:32 AM

Ooh. BTW, @Whit3 Ghost:

I think we've had everyone's but your argument on Tombstalker VS Grunt...any opinions?

rsaunder

10-13-2007, 10:58 AM

Whit3 Ghost

10-13-2007, 11:08 AM

Ooh. BTW, @Whit3 Ghost:

I think we've had everyone's but your argument on Tombstalker VS Grunt...any opinions?
I'm currently on the fence.

Grunt is an incredibly good utility creature and is a bomb against Goyf. However, Tombstalker's abilities as a finisher cannot be overlooked. I can distincly remember matches where a Stalker would have won me the game. I'm not sure if he's good enough to run things like Sensei's top with, however or if getting burned for 8 is worth it.

Whit3 Ghost

10-13-2007, 11:10 AM

OOh, I love this deck again. Top is excellent. I destroyed white thresh all night pre and post board and red splash was even before board, then I won post board:tongue:

...And now i crush randomness instead of losing to it...
Get on AIM.
What's your list?

Stalker is pretty obscene. I sort of got converted as I've been writing my response. Also, you will now see Rsaunder playing this deck again instead of myself. :cry:

Hummingbird TG

10-13-2007, 11:18 AM

Heh. If you guys don't mind, could you guys, like, um...spare us your that run top or something?

But, yea. Deadguy is probably the best deck in the format that everybody disregards...

rsaunder

10-13-2007, 06:49 PM

Heh. If you guys don't mind, could you guys, like, um...spare us your that run top or something?

But, yea. Deadguy is probably the best deck in the format that everybody disregards...What did the first part of that mean again?

Yeah, I agree, deadguy is by far the best "OMG, why are you playing that" deck in the format.

I've been running top, and I like it.

Even with it, tombstalker requires you cut grunt. If you cut grunt, then just cut white and run goyf. Then play deed, and you never lose to thresh again!

Whit3 Ghost

10-13-2007, 11:16 PM

In other words, post your list.

My problem with Grunt and Green is this: I don't want to lose Vindicate. I'm probably being overly paranoid, but I enjoy the ability to take out lands that are going to ruin my day. Deed seems a little slow here, but that will be seen with testing and if it gets the nod I think I would like to see Sinkhole run again.

Hummingbird TG

10-14-2007, 05:08 AM

I don't want to lost StP either. Deed seems by far easier to Daze, costs more than 3 mana, and doesn't answer a first turn Lackey(that deck is still good, I'd believe...)

Furthermore, we already have EE to do Deed's job, and against Thresh, it's cheaper, no?

Whit3 Ghost

10-14-2007, 10:40 AM

Furthermore, we already have EE to do Deed's job, and against Thresh, it's cheaper, no?
Yeah, but Deed hits things over 2cc, which is important. It also allows you to play the control role and take out the small army of threshed guys that can hit the board against you.

Hummingbird TG

10-14-2007, 12:25 PM

If you're just talking about Threshhold I don't see the point about 2cc...EE hits everything they've got. For the rest, I have Edict and Vindicate...and SBed StPs.

If you'e talking about random Aggro, Tombstalker > them.

If you're talking about red aggro, both Deed and EE suck anyways...

rsaunder

10-14-2007, 07:17 PM

I dunno about you, but I don't even SB STP's. EE pops@2 for 4 mana. Deed pops for 5. Pretty much the same mana for a more thurough sweeper that can hit for more than 2cc. I am in no way advocating the green splash, just saying that if you're going to run tombstalker over grunt, that it might make more sense. Goyf+Deed>Vindicate+nothing.

My list eh?

4 bob
3 hippy
3 shade
3 grunt

4 hymn
3 Duress
4 Thoughtseize (I agree that this should be a 3-of, but something else ought to get put in instead, and I'm not sure what.)
4 Vindicate
2 Smallpox
2 EE
2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 dark rit
4 waste
4 scrub
3 mire
3 delta
1 tomb
7 swamp

sorry about the abbreviations and such i just kinda burned the hell out of my thumb with a firework and it hurts like hell to type with it

Whit3 Ghost

10-14-2007, 08:12 PM

I think you can safely go down to 23 Land and add in the third Smallpox.
Also, I think Tombstalker might be better then Grunt here as well. He's so damn big. There were a lot of games at EPIC I played where I think that he would have made the difference instead of Grunt.

And if you want 10 discard spells, run the Third top, cut a land and run Sinkhole as a 2 of, or run a 1-of Tombstalker or something. This is in addition to the thought of the third Pox.

Hummingbird TG

10-15-2007, 12:09 AM

Whit3 Ghost

10-15-2007, 03:39 PM

@Rsaunder: Why no SB StPs?

Also, white splash > green splash because Scrublands look far, far better than Bayous. Really. Besides, if I'm correct, you have 4 BB Scrublands, but not 4 BB Bayous, right?

@Whit3 Ghost:

Why Sinkholes? They do too little; they are slow against Thresh, do nothing against Gobbos and Belcher and TES, and can be dead cards many times even in matchups where they may see use...
No, we have BB Duals, I believe. And by we I mean he.

Sinhole was really good in every matchup I played except Belcher. Things like Maze of Ith can be a real pain when you have to deal with manlands and possibly Crucibles.

It's better against Goblins then you think, especially when you are able to neutralize AEther Vial. It's possible to have them stall out on 2-3 mana

rsaunder

10-15-2007, 04:11 PM

I picked up a set of BB bayus, mostly for Aluren but they make me so much less biased when looking at different splashes. Anything I build looks pretty sexy now:tongue:

No SB STPs was a decision I reached a while back (and I have beta ones I like to play, so no "it's too expensive to pimp" factor here [/bragging]) when goblins thresh and solidarity made up the metagame. I always looked at shat I wanted to board in against certain decks and realized that I was boarding in way too many cards. That made me look at everything and figure out exactly what I was boarding out against each major deck. Against thresh dystopias came in for sinkhole, against goblins plague came in for duress. Cutting anything else for STP in these matchups was just the wrong play. Eventually it dawned on me as I constantly stuck STP in the board for my "extra random slot" that I unerringly had, that I never sided it in. It was always too narrow, didn't do enough, or would replace something with an alomst-as-desireable effect, and in that case, it was better to put the SB slots to some better use, either hating the big decks more or prepping with more specific hate (perish, or storm hate for example.)

My other problem with STP is the life gain. I usually win my games against aggro by a narrow margin, and if my removal can avoid giving them life, well then jolly good!

So my conclusion about STP was that it was impossible to justify when something more effective at what I wanted it to do could be in it's place. I think that's about what Pikula said about the 2 MB E. Plagues he ran; "I only had 2 slots for removal, so I wanted them to be [heavy hitters]" (or something to that effect.)

@Sinkhole: It sucks against Thresh and Fish and is pretty bad against storm combo. That is my justification for not running it. I agree that it's good against goblins (I always kept 4 post-board) and against controll is pretty nuts, but those can be won without it (heavy discard is nice for controll and although it's a trade off against goblins, discard is still useful). I just don't think it diserves MB slots in an "ideal" meta right now. Perhaps in an aggro-control heavy meta (non thresh-fish) and aggro, it would be a choice, but right now I'd rather run more smallpox.

I still strongly disagree with tombstalker. Sure it's better than grunt against some decks, but grunt as a 3-of is so devistating to thresh and survival and any control that likes to use the 'yard (and it restocks your deck) that I don't think he can be cut right now. I like tombstalker, he's a nice guy and cheap enough to play realistically but he just doesn't do it for me. Also, an answered tombstalker is way harder on your position than an answered grunt, especially if they wait for your attack step.

Hummingbird TG

10-17-2007, 05:43 AM

Why'd you ever want Hymn against Thresh with 8 Duresses?

Also, about the small life margin against Aggro, do you think a big finisher like Tombstalker would affect that, just asking?

rsaunder

10-17-2007, 07:29 AM

Why'd you ever want Hymn against Thresh with 8 Duresses?

Also, about the small life margin against Aggro, do you think a big finisher like Tombstalker would affect that, just asking?Hymn just helps take out creatures initially. I don't know if it's the right play now (-4 hymn, -1 Hippy +1 seize +4 dystopia) but at the time it was correct. And now, adding dystopia#4 seems way more important than swords#1.

[confusing rant]In theory, a big finisher would end the game before life would become a problem, but in this case I don't think tombstalker would really help the "life problem". Forgetting for a second that it flips for eight, it once again biols down to the opportunity cost for running stalker: cutting grunt. In nearly game I play against aggro, grunt is an amazing asset, always at least 1-for-1-ing the opponent, usually more. Now, tombstalker can play defensively like this too, but while he's chumping smaller creatures, he isn't sending business back into your deck or removig your opponent's graveyard. I realize that has nothing to do with life in the short run, and that a finisher like him, if you were attacking before the point that grunt would have been equally good (a race with blockers), then he could be amazing. This strikes me as just too situational, though, to sacrifice grunt.[/confusing rant]

EDIT: I guess my point there was: When playing defensively, like I almost always am with the deck, tombstalker isn't that much better than grunt as a pure beatstick finisher.

lolosoon

10-17-2007, 10:46 AM

I guess my point there was: When playing defensively, like I almost always am with the deck, tombstalker isn't that much better than grunt as a pure beatstick finisher.
The more I read through this thread, the more I feel I misplay the deck : when most of you play the deck Control/Aggro, I play it Aggro/Control. =/

If I was playing the MD EExplosives and SmallPoxes Rsaunder runs, I would definitly dislike the fact my early Shades and Confidants could be sent to oblivion...

One last point :
With the addition of Thoughtseize, and the fact that most builds run 4 bobs and ~6 fetchlands (and smallpox), has lifeloss been a matter and costs you some games ?
No Jittes, no Verdicts, no StP (on your own confidant) = no Life Gain. Sure SdT can make bob's drawback less painful, but I'd hate doing half my opp's job on my own.

rsaunder

10-17-2007, 02:57 PM

The more I read through this thread, the more I feel I misplay the deck : when most of you play the deck Control/Aggro, I play it Aggro/Control. =/

If I was playing the MD EExplosives and SmallPoxes Rsaunder runs, I would definitly dislike the fact my early Shades and Confidants could be sent to oblivion...

One last point :
With the addition of Thoughtseize, and the fact that most builds run 4 bobs and ~6 fetchlands (and smallpox), has lifeloss been a matter and costs you some games ?
No Jittes, no Verdicts, no StP (on your own confidant) = no Life Gain. Sure SdT can make bob's drawback less painful, but I'd hate doing half my opp's job on my own.
@Life: It hasn't decided many games yet for me (i.e. I've lost games by waaay more than seize/whatever damage). In fact, the only game that leaps to mind was one against UGr thresh when the game went on 45 turns, he had to topdeck fire to win, and I was on grunt#5. So it had been sort of up in the air. I'm going to redo the life-loss-situation-average (how many damage I take in an average game) tonight, but it looks like 5-7 right now, which, imho is a lot, but surmountable.

@Killing your own stuff: It's all about timing. I don't just smallpox away my creature to kill anything, you play it when it's beneficial to you. Snag the draw off confident, attack with it, then smallpox away the goose. Beat with shade, then pop EE to kill off the 2 goyfs that look like they're gonna eat your face next turn (if the opponent isn't holding counter of course). Use sensei's divining top before blowing EE for 1:cool:

lolosoon

10-17-2007, 03:20 PM

@Killing your own stuff:(...)
I think I got it : Use your brain before using your cards ^^;

Still, I'll test playing more control cards like EE and SPox and try getting used to them and their subtilities.

Thanks for you answer, I'm looking forward to those lifeloss calculations !!

Hummingbird TG

10-18-2007, 12:56 PM

Hymn just helps take out creatures initially. I don't know if it's the right play now (-4 hymn, -1 Hippy +1 seize +4 dystopia) but at the time it was correct. And now, adding dystopia#4 seems way more important than swords#1.

[confusing rant]In theory, a big finisher would end the game before life would become a problem, but in this case I don't think tombstalker would really help the "life problem". Forgetting for a second that it flips for eight, it once again biols down to the opportunity cost for running stalker: cutting grunt. In nearly game I play against aggro, grunt is an amazing asset, always at least 1-for-1-ing the opponent, usually more. Now, tombstalker can play defensively like this too, but while he's chumping smaller creatures, he isn't sending business back into your deck or removig your opponent's graveyard. I realize that has nothing to do with life in the short run, and that a finisher like him, if you were attacking before the point that grunt would have been equally good (a race with blockers), then he could be amazing. This strikes me as just too situational, though, to sacrifice grunt.[/confusing rant]

EDIT: I guess my point there was: When playing defensively, like I almost always am with the deck, tombstalker isn't that much better than grunt as a pure beatstick finisher.

How often for you has the 'Grunt restocking your deck' part been relevant for you? Personally, I think that only against Control ion a long game would it be relevant; and against Control, there would be a million and one ways for them to kill Grunt, that it would hardly be expected to stay on the board for long.

Also, for Tombstalker: Against Wasteland decks I find that holding Grunt and another white card, I can only play one of the two, causing a dead card in my hand, because of the Wasteland which would destroy my Scrubland the moment I fetch it. Therefore I prefer Tombstalker, to reduce the white count in the deck.

Also, For StoP against Thresh: I think -4 Hymn, -4 Sinkhole, -3 Duress + 4 Leyline of the Void +1 Dystopia +2 Diabolic Edict + 4 Swords to Plowshares would work, no? Converting to Board Control to obtain card advantage through Dark Confidant, preferably involving a Leyline(which wins games.period.), seems better than relying on the conventional disruption strategy against Thresh(seeing as they would just cantrip into the stuff they want to see anyway, so our discard isn't that good...)

Holo_rip

10-18-2007, 02:11 PM

Okay, so i've been playing tonigh (here in france) with a friend with my brand new confidant build against two of his deck : CRET Belcher and BUG Threshold (since it wrench others thresh in the mirrors he choose it over the other version). His CRET list is similar to what we find in this forum, and this is the list he have as a BUG Threshold :
4 polluted delta
4 flooded strand
4 underground sea
4 tropical island
1 island
1 swamp

3 sensei's divination top
2 counterbalance
4 Force of will
3 daze
4 smother
3 ghastly demise
4 brainstorm
4 serum vision
3 stifle
2 engineered explosives

4 tarmagoyf
4 dark confidant
2 tombstalker

and then, my version of deadguy :
4 scrubland
2 bloodstained mire
2 windswept heath
4 wasteland
1 urborg, tomb of yaugzebul
1 tomb of urami
1 plains
6 swamp

4 dark confidant
3 nantuko shade
3 hypnotic specter
3 jotun grnut
1 tombstalker

4 dark ritual
4 hymn to tourach
3 thoughtseize
3 duress
2 sensei's divination top
4 sinkhole
3 vindicate
3 sword to plowshare

SB :
4 engineered plague
3 dystopia
3 planar void
3 chalice of the void
2 cursed scroll (forgot to buy some EE)

First we have done 5 quick match against belcher.
i litterally wrench him, going 4-1 (the only kill being a turn one belcher / activate).
Then, the big one.
10 match pre and post board. 5 of wich i was on the go, 5 others on the draw.
and here are the stat : 12 - 8 for threshold.
pre board: 5-5 and postboard : 7-3.
he have sided nothing all the time. i have side in 3 planar void for 3 duress.

My point of view is that the best bet you can do win facing threshold is attacking their manabase. Nearly all my win were due to LD backed up by some discard. Jotun was really the MVP. stalker wasn't that impressive, same as tomb of urami (smother i hate you) though i've won one game due to a urami token. stalker force me to run SDT too, so i think that i'll change this -1 stalker -2 SDT +3 engineered explosives.
Countertop just wrench this deck, i've lost many game only due to a resolved counterbalance. that's why i think EE is the way to go. Moreover it help for other matchup such as combo or aggro, and act as a removal.
Thoughtseize help a LOT, it is a must to take a tarmagoyf with it, saving so much life. I don't think i'll run more fetchland, cause with bob, fetch and thoughtseize, the life loss can be sometime revelant.
So here are my though, you can ask me question about this particular matchup (belcher and BUG threshold).

in addition to this, i must adapt my SB to my meta (80 % of threshold, some combo, 1 life, 1 enchantress, 2-3 goblin and random deck like MBA, MBC, land!...).
i don't know if chalice of void is worth the SB slot, cause i already wrench combo.
some thought about a SB for such a meta ?

Holo.

rsaunder

10-18-2007, 03:05 PM

I disagree with Holo on "how to beat thresh". Land D has always seemed like a golden priority against them, but really it's not all that effective because they only need like 2 lands. I always go for more of a board controll strategy against thresh (like Hummingbird) with EE and other removal complimented by discard followed up by beats. I generally don't even waste lands after like turn 3 unless I'm in a position to completely cut him off of a color of mana. If I hadn't posted my anti-thresh, it was looking like -4 hymn -2x (dark rit/bob/really depends on the thresh) +4 Dystopia +1 thoughtseize +1 duress.

I gave up on graveyard hate other then grunt after the EPIC DFD when planar void royally shit the bed and leyline just proved too inconsistant (and running 4 of them was restrictive). Haven't you found that thresh sides in grip expecting the leyline anyways? I wasn't impressed with it against goyf either, they always got at least 3/4 on MY yard anyways. *shrug* One more instance where I perfer grunt for the job.

@Grunt Restocking: I don't know, quite simply. It seems like good practice, though, to during you upkeep put business on the bottom and then pop a fetch. It also makes it so running out of threats in longer games is a non-issue. And yes, this happens against thresh/fish for me relatively frequently. Shuffling more grunts in is especially intense against decks like that (<3 preboard hate).

@Grunt getting removed: Hopefully they won't have a hand for it in any case, but I'd much rather lose 1 of 3 grunts (and know I might get to reshuffle it later) than 1 of 2 stalkers and most of my 'yard with no shot at getting it back.

@Wasteland&White Count: Playing a manabase like ours well is a work of art, and I'm sure everyone who has really played the deck will say the same. I've rarely had a problem with being able to play one, not the other. Perhaps it's just me and how I play my manabase, but I never have troubles with white mana outside of the "trips vindicate and no scrubs or sacs for 10 turns" scenareo. It always depends on the game state, but most of the time people waste me, it's late game and I'm holding a scrub baiting the waste. Early game, I never lose lands to wastes because my opponent is so hard up for resources anyway. If they do waste, generally the land lost will give me time to find another or seal the game with my other draws.

@Tomb: It should be there for emergencies. If mo opponent has a hand, I'll almost never pop it. Too riskay.

Holo, my SB right now is:
1 duress
1 thoughtseize
4 Dystopia
3 Extirpate
4 E. Plague
2 Serenity
Which has a fairly good game against thresh. Not 100%, but more than positive enough.

For mostly thresh, you could combine my hate and HummingBird's and go both 'yard hate and board control:
4 Leyline
4 Dystopia
7 *doesn't matter*
Should rape them. That alongside grunt and EE MB=you kinda win. Try siding out your sinkholes, I think you'll like how it plays out better. As for chalice, I stopped siding them in. With 8 duress post-board you should be fine.

So I think I like SDT without tombstalker. I reserve the right to take it out at any point though and not look like an idiot:wink:

n00bas4urus_r3x

10-18-2007, 03:10 PM

Stalker force me to run SDT too, so i think that i'll change this -1 stalker -2 SDT +3 engineered explosives.
Countertop just wrench this deck, i've lost many game only due to a resolved counterbalance.

Do you think +1 Vindicate, +2 EE would be better? Standard Thresh lists, be it UGr, UGw, or BUG can't counter 3cc spells with Counterbalance, so saving Vindicate for Counterbalance might be your best option. EE is still amazing, but still easier for them to counter off of Counterbalance.

As for the board, have you thought about Pithing Needle? It can shut off Top against *****, and is good against tons of other stuff.

Holo_rip

10-18-2007, 03:21 PM

thanks all for the feedback. After some thought, i think that i'll try this :
4 wasteland
4 scrubland
4 swamp
1 plains
2 bloodstained mire
2 polluted delta
2 windswept heath
1 urborg, tomb of yaugzebul
1 tomb of urami

4 dark confidant
3 hypnotic specter
3 nantuko shade
3 jotun grunt

4 dark ritual
4 duress
4 thoughtseize
4 sinkhole
3 vindicate
3 sword to plowshare
3 engineered explosive
2 sensei's divination top

SB :
4 engineered plague
4 leyline of the void
4 dystopia
3 serenity

All in all, now i must test this list.

Holo.

lolosoon

10-18-2007, 04:57 PM

Standard Thresh lists, be it UGr, UGw, or BUG can't counter 3cc spells with Counterbalance
As Hummingbird said, they can't CounterTop EE if you paid BBW for it. Still, it cost an additionnal 2 to activate.

I've tested 3xEE 2xSmallPox MD (dropping Verdicts and StP). The Explosives were great during playtest session (UGr Thresh -no MD needles- , UG Madness , Dredge Ichorid), the SPox were not.

I often draw them belong extra gas in hand which I didn't want to discard. Smother//StP//SDT will replace them I think.

@Holo_Rip : I like the 1x plain, 2x windswept heath of your build for wasteland-proof. But don't the basic plain without Urborg makes your shades less effective sometimes ?
And did you miss the Hymns now that you run Thoughseize ?!?

rsaunder

10-18-2007, 06:58 PM

Cutting Hymn is the wrong play in any deck that runs discard; Like this one. I'd reconsider that choice.

Hummingbird TG

10-19-2007, 01:08 AM

Not really; I would cut Hymn if they printed another Thoughtseize. Besides, Hymn is proving to be far too slow at times. For example, against Thresh, and sometimes even against combo its too inconsistent.

porcupinetreeman

10-19-2007, 10:18 AM

Cutting Hymn is the wrong play in any deck that runs discard; Like this one. I'd reconsider that choice.

I would agree with this. Against Control, Hymn discarding lands is often game over. Thoughtsieze can easily replace duress in metagames with a lot of goyfs/goblins/creatures. This deck should be running at least 2 maindeck Jitte's with all the life loss now.

Hummingbird TG

10-19-2007, 10:35 AM

Jittes equipped to what, with 11 creatures?

rsaunder

10-23-2007, 03:48 PM

Hummingbird TG

10-24-2007, 09:03 AM

Rsaunder: How did the games against the burn decks go? Can give us an idea on how to play the matchup?

Also, whats everyone think of running Morningtide in the board? It doesn't hurt Tombstalker if you run it, therefore it's not as painful to yourself as it is to a Thresh opponent; However, it doesn't hurt Ichorid or Breakfast much.

rsaunder

10-24-2007, 02:39 PM

lolosoon

10-24-2007, 06:50 PM

My list averages 5 damage a game. Never less than 2 damage, but never more than 10.

That being said, my deck (not list, my deck it'self) got played last weekend at our local place and 4-0'd against two burn decks. So...not much of a problem?
Ok, many thanks for this feedback Rsaunder !!

I can easily imagine that you've actually never took a lot of damages from Bob thanks to the 2 SDTs maindecked though...

Any report from the 4-0 result ?!

ClearSkies

10-24-2007, 06:54 PM

Wouldn't Persecute be a powerful card versus burn? Will it fit as a narrow card?
It is good versus Goblins, Solardarity (That reset/brain freeze combo), Death/Taxes, Angel Stompy, and basically all the mono-color decks...

lolosoon

10-24-2007, 07:03 PM

Wouldn't Persecute be a powerful card versus burn? Will it fit as a narrow card?
4cc is not great with this deck's mana curve imho.
Moreover, if you don't ritual into Persecute, your opponent will probbly have less than 3 cards in hand by the time you cast it. So Hymn would be more efficient, and leaves you with enough mana open to play more disruption/threats the same turn...

rsaunder

10-24-2007, 07:32 PM

Any report from the 4-0 result ?!That was just against burn. He turned around and lost to some storm combo (piloted by CaptLyle of BZK). He lost 0-2, game 1 to 14 goblin tokens first turn with no EE. Game 2 he surprised me by SBing correctly and proceding to rip the storm deck's hand apart and laying an e-plague on goblin. Storm ended up winning off of tendrils though. I'm not sure of anything more specific than that. That being said, the man piloting the deck (rsaunder Sr.) had essentially just picked it up and I'm impressed he played it as well as he did.

Anarky87

10-24-2007, 10:12 PM

When I use to play Deadguy, I don't ever remember burn being a bad matchup. I just Duress'd and Hymn'd their hand away and then Sinkhole'd and Vindicated their lands. Usually ended the game with a Grunt equipped with Jitte. Rsaunder is right. Just nuke their hand and lands.

Burn is essentially a bad combo deck that folds in the face of disruption and burns (no pun) itself out by turn 5 or 6, if it hasn't won.

Hummingbird TG

10-25-2007, 08:19 AM

Against burn, destroy lands. Waste nonbasics if they play them, vindicate away, and smallpox if it looks like they might stall. Side out confidents. Nantuko shade ftw.

Why is morningtide better than tormod's crypt?

Well, I guess only in the Thresh matchup...but Morningtide makes Tarmogoyf 0/1. Tormod's Crypt just gives Tarmogoyf +1/+1.

emidln

10-25-2007, 01:09 PM

Well, I guess only in the Thresh matchup...but Morningtide makes Tarmogoyf 0/1. Tormod's Crypt just gives Tarmogoyf +1/+1.

Err, no. Morningtide makes Goyf a 1/2. Morningtide also turns off your Jotun Grunts should you happen to topdeck one next turn.

Hummingbird TG

10-29-2007, 09:07 AM

Well, my latest list; it seems to deal with Thresh quite well...

Mana 27

4 Dark Ritual
4 Scrubland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
5 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Wasteland

Creatures 10

4 Dark Confidant
3 Nantuko Shade
3 Tombstalker, the absolutely badass against Red Thresh. Who can't deal with him. Really.

Other 23

3 Sensei's Divining Top(I like this very much)
4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Vindicate
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Diabolic Edict

Sideboard 15

2 Swords to plowshares
2 Diabolic Edict
4 Engineered Plague
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Damnation

Against Thresh:

-4 Duress, -3 Hymn
+2 Swords, +2 Diabolic Edict, +3 Damnation,

for a removal suite of:

Removal [16]

4 Swords to plowshares
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Vindicate
3 Damnation

Against White Thresh, Enforcer is always ugly, but we *do* have Edict and Damnation and StP...

Hummingbird TG

10-31-2007, 07:28 AM

Any suggestions or comments on my list above? None at all?

Mesercus

10-31-2007, 09:49 AM

Any suggestions or comments on my list above? None at all?

Hi.
I really think you have to run at least 3x Jotun grunt it's one of the best creatures in legacy (so important fight the graveyard nowadays). Two tombstalkers are enough even if i don't like it.
Choose duress or thoughtseize and replace the other with cabal therapy if you want to run many discards and absolutely use 4x tourach!
Sensei it's bad and i suggest 4X Vindicate.
You could use one less land for another stp.

Eldariel

10-31-2007, 10:04 AM

Against Goyf, Planar Void is the card you want. It's the one card that really shuts Goyf down. However, if you use the Void, you can't really be using Grunts, so it's a tradeoff. Sticking to mono-black creaturebase might just work though as it gives you the freedom to use Dystopia too, which is an absolute beating against Threshold.

Tao

10-31-2007, 10:10 AM

My creature configuration is VERY similar to Hummingbirds, I also run 4 Confis and 3 Tombstalker, the only difference is my 4th Shade. I also run 3 Tops to back uo Confidant and avoid revealing Tombstalkers. Top is very strong on its own, too, when both decks are in topdeck mode, which happens quite often with Deadguy Ale.

But I agree with Mersercus that "4x Hymn" is not openm for discussion. All decks fear the Hymn. And don't side them out against Thresh, really.

Hummingbird TG

10-31-2007, 10:37 AM

@Mesercus:

What? Cabal Therapy? With 10 Creatures? Seems iffy to me... And Sensei's Divining Top is awesome. Playtest it and you'd learn why; it's insane. You win topdeck wars you need. You don't draw Thoughtseize or other discard or creature kill when you don't need them; you don't lose to Confidant...

@Eldariel:

Void shuts down Tombstalker; I'm not inclined to do that unless I can find another good black creature. Which hardly exist. Dystopia costs me life, and I'm not keen on that. But then again, my removal suite already rapes Thresh.

@Tao:

Not to side them out against Thresh? But why? Normally Hymns and Discard against Thresh seem too slow to stem the threats alone; because of that(and imagine the horrible topdeck Hymn is!) I side them out for a more reliable plan of removing their threats when they hit play(which is harder for Thresh to escape); Siding into an MBC-ish deck also bumps the matchup against thresh up quite nicely...

Also, could I see your list, please, Tao? Thanks!

lolosoon

10-31-2007, 11:32 AM

Normally Hymns and Discard against Thresh seem too slow to stem the threats alone; because of that(and imagine the horrible topdeck Hymn is!) I side them out for a more reliable plan of removing their threats when they hit play
To me, Hymns are gold vs thresh. They know you've got plenty of SB hate for them and use their countermagic carefully.
Thresh pack 8-12 threats with what, 11-14 countermagic backup vs your 6-8 SB cards ?

Mid-game (say, with 3+ lands) topdecked discard get rid of held countermagic like, say, Daze + FoW (unless they kept SpellSnare this long) and clear the way for next turn hate (Dystopia, Vindicate, EE, SPox, Damnation etc...).

Dropping 7 discard effect vs Thresh could lead your drawn Damnation dazed or StP Forced imho.

Hummingbird TG

10-31-2007, 12:19 PM

11-14 Countermagic? What? Okay, so I see 4 Force, 4 Daze, and if my opponent is straight U/g, 3-4 Spell Snares, if not, 2-3 Counterbalances...Where's 14? Besides, Spell Snare only hits 3 of my removal out of 16, and does nothing against Stalker(CB folds to Vindicate, and EE, too. And cant counter Stalker either).

lolosoon

10-31-2007, 02:48 PM

11-14 Countermagic? What?

Yes, call me paranoïd but I do think (http://www.germagic.de/dc/deck.php?id=10960) that several (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=172301&postcount=796) builds (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2300275&postcount=3) of Threshold (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=174047&postcount=759) pack a minimum (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=173501&postcount=797) of 4xFoW+Daze and 3xStifle//Spellsnare//CounterBalance.

UGr builds (http://www.germagic.de/dc/deck.php?id=10894) often pack a li'l more (http://www.germagic.de/dc/deck.php?id=10886) (like Stifle AND SpellSnare for ex.), and UGw (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=174256&postcount=1) also have access to MD/SB Meddling Mage (http://www.germagic.de/dc/deck.php?id=10719) or Needle (which aren't really "countermagic" I concede) so they don't have to care countering stuff like EE or whatever you bring in.

Now, if it works well for you, great. I'm just arguing that when you side out discard vs decks packing countermagic you're running a risk that your sideboarded cards won't impact 2nd and 3rd game due to the fact they'ld be countered.
(And UGb run some discard too)

Has this never happened to you with this SB strategy ?!

Hummingbird TG

11-01-2007, 07:20 AM

Well, there's a ton of redundancy in the deck, as I have 16 removal cards, 3 super-blockers(Shade) and 3 cards red-Thresh can't deal with and that are pains for White Thresh to deal with(Stalker), so I don't think they can counter all. I still have 4 Thoughtseize maindeck, which can pick out creatures and counters, too.

However, I think I could consider siding out Dark Rituals instead of some number of Duress or Hymns. What do you think?

electrolyze

11-12-2007, 03:10 PM

here's my latest build for a tourney upcoming saturday:

creatures:

4xconfidant
2xspectral lynx
3xnantuko shade
2xjotun grunt

instants:

2xextirpate
3xswords to plowshares
4xdark ritual

sorceries:

4xsinkhole
2xduress(havent got the other thougthseizes so this is my replacement)
2xthougthseize
4xhymn
3xvindicate

artifacts:

3xengineered explosives

land:

1xtomb of urami
4xscrubland
4xmire
1xtainted field
12xswamp

sb:

4xchainer's edict
3xdisenchant
4xwithered wretch
4xengineered plague

i really like this list, it has a really good aggro-control mu, a decent aggro mu and a good combo mu.

maybe i could fit some more discard in it(2 verdicts, funeral chamr or duress)

i play main extirpate becuase i excpect there will be loam decks and controll decks like lanstill. hes good too against combo.

i never lost against thresholg with this list so that wil be okay.

does somebody has to say something about this lsit because the tourney is saturday and im not 100% sure about the list.

rsaunder

11-12-2007, 06:36 PM

Why spectral lynx? There are better things for that slot, and you should already have goyf covered. And vindicate should be a 4-of. No exceptions ^_^

electrolyze

11-13-2007, 03:06 AM

i think youre right about the lynx, on my last tourney i had no profit from the lynx so i think i cut it for 1 vindicate and 1 jotun grunt.

what about the extirpates?

are they really good enough to play it main or shal i cut them for some more discard or something like that?

Hummingbird TG

11-13-2007, 06:42 AM

I personally favor a suite of 4 Duress 4 Seize. If you can't get 4 Thoughtseize, stick with the two you have, but run 4 Duress anyway. Also, my personal view is that Sinkhole is far too slow for the current meta. And, if you're runnign Sinkhole, why no Wasteland?

For the Spectral Lynxes, I think you can replace them with Tombstalker, who is absolutely asatounding against Thresh(he kills everything they have, and flies so they can't block him, and only White Thresh doesn't have a very hard time killing him)

IMO, Extirpate main is hardly necessary. Especially with the little discard that you run. I think you can cut it to run more Duresses.

Also, I like a singleton Volraths stronghold very much, especially when recurring threats against Control.

electrolyze

11-13-2007, 08:44 AM

oops, sorry forget to type it but i play wastelands.

i think tombstalker hurd too much with confidant so i dont play em but i will test it.

sinkhole has let me won too many games for me to cut it but in a loam, thresh and combo meta it isnt necessary so i think i will cut it for more discard and other disruption. maybe i could fit in a 4th jotun grunt?

yes, the volrath is very good too so i will play it once.

i shal post my new list when its more tested.

Hummingbird TG

11-13-2007, 09:15 AM

I see you running Sinkhole without Sensei's Divining Top, though. As well with several other cards which can be situational(e.g. Swords to Plowshares). Perhaps, you could consider running top to reduce the number of dead cards you draw?(if you do, run 4 Polluted Deltas too; the lifegain isn't much.)

Also, if you run Top, I believe you can safely run Tombstalker.

electrolyze

11-13-2007, 09:43 AM

i will test with the top but i dont have top now and the tourney is saturday so i will play it without. im gonna test without sinkholes but i think i will keep them becasue i really like them.

thanks for your advise and if i end up t8 i will write a tourney report.

greets, electrolyze

Tao

11-13-2007, 09:48 AM

I agree that Tombstalker is a mustplay in this deck. And Top is good, too. You have to accept to lose 1 of 20 games by revealing a Stalker when on low life. But he will win many games that other creatures could never win. He has evasion like Specter and when he attacks the opponent is in great trouble, too. And once he is down, he will not die like Jotun Grunt. Grunt is good, too but for obvious reasons you can't run both in the same deck. And Stalker is just that much better. Usually bigger than Goyf, usually unburnable, wins races.

My creature configuration would be like this:

4x Confidant
4x Nantuko Shade
3x Tombstalker

0-3 Meta Slots (Withered Wretch, Spectral Lynx, Black Knight)

Hummingbird TG

11-13-2007, 10:00 AM

About your creaturebase, Tao: don't you find that too many creatures? Instead of running 11-14, personally I run 10, and prefer to fill out the remaining slots instead with creature removal or disruption...

electrolyze

11-13-2007, 04:20 PM

ok, this is my new list without sinkholes and a little exlplosives tech(dotn know if it really works well but i see a lot of staxx too and crucible is a pain in my ass so explosives on 3 would be great):

4xconfidant
3xgrunt
3xshade

2xextirpate
4xstp
4xdark ritual

4xvindicate
4xduress
2xthoughtseize
4xexlposives
4xhymn

1xcity of brass
4xscrubland
4xbloodstained mire
1xtomb of urami
4xwasteland
8xswamp

this list im gonna play saturday i think, as you can see i run a lot of ramoval and more discard then earlier. in my meta i think extirpate are good but i dont know if i put some more creatures in my list instead of extiprate because i run all the threaths a want to run so i dont have to put more disruption in it.

my real list contains stronghold, more thoughtseizes but i cant get them before saturday so this is my list for now.

i know tombstalker is a good creature but i dont think this list need it very hard becuase i play enuogh removal to beat with my grunt and shades.

i hope there wont be many staxx decks and ohther decks like that because then sinkhole is really good aginast those decks.

what about the city of brass/explosives interaction? i really want to see how this works out but dont know if its really neccesary. in my old list i was runnning one tainted field and i think im only gonna use it 2 or 3 time mid/late game so it wont hurt a lot and city is often usefuller then tainted field.

Hummingbird TG

11-13-2007, 11:12 PM

4 Engineered Explosives? Don't get me wrong, I like EE, but there *are* some matches when it's dead and all...however if that doesn't occur much in your meta its fne.

Also, City of Brass seems like nice tech, but why don't you instead run 4 Polluted Deltas, and then run Underground Sea, Bandlands or Bayou? A third colour easily fetchable is always good, IMHO better than a random one off.

electrolyze

11-14-2007, 01:14 AM

in all the matches i've played exlosives wasnt a death card and i really want it to topdeck against many decks, actually there is just one deck from te 15 different decks i played with this build i dont had to use them.

like i said, im still testing them 4x so maybe i will change it to 3 and youre right about the city but i wanted to have a land that made white, because a badlands would be a nonbasic swamp for me and that is just really bad aainst many cards. the reason why the field in the deck was for extra white and i wasnt fetchable too. but as i said, i shal try it.

thanks again for the advise

Deviruchi

11-14-2007, 04:10 PM

4xconfidant
3xgrunt
3xshade

2xextirpate
4xstp
4xdark ritual

4xvindicate
4xduress
2xthoughtseize
4xexlposives
4xhymn

1xcity of brass
4xscrubland
4xbloodstained mire
1xtomb of urami
4xwasteland
8xswamp

I would go:
-1x EE / +1x Extirpate
-1x City of Brass / +1x Bayou (or Badlands/Underground Sea)
-1x Swamp / +1x Urborg (great with wastelands/tomb of urami/ v.stronghold)
-1x Swamp / +1x Godless Shrine (this +1 BW Dual saved me so many times, try it)

Maybe I would use 2 more fetchlands (fuel for Jotun Grunt). What is your sideboard or meta ?

electrolyze

11-14-2007, 05:04 PM

sb:

4xchainer's edict
3xdisenchant
4xplague
4xwithered wretch

my meta consist of many aggro-control and combo decks, thats the reason why i cutted sinkholes and putted more discard ans explosives in.

the problem is that i dont have more fetch then 4xmire:p

the reason of tainted field was extra white so i think im gonnan run plateau then instead of a black based dual for explosives.

maybe maindeck withered wretch 2x is fun too because hes really good against laom, and thats the only deck i have a real problem with.

rsaunder

11-15-2007, 02:50 PM

City of brass should be something else. I know you want the possibility of hitting EE for 3, but what are the chances of having an unfetchable 1-of land and an EE when you want to? If you really are into that, replace swamps with other duals; at least they don't do you damage every time you tap them and can get fetched.

electrolyze

11-15-2007, 03:37 PM

youre right, i play bayou now and i like it, i've putted krosan grip side now because i can make green now. i dont want to make it deadguy rock so dont say, 'why dont you make it deadguy rock becuase of your green splash'.

i only play the grips over disnchant for counterbalance, back to basic, shackles and other irritating arti/enchantments in counterdecks.

should i add one extra bayou or not?

Hummingbird TG

11-16-2007, 04:02 AM

For your question, how many bayou are you already playing? And, if you're only running 4 green cards and 7-8 cards that run green, I don't think, personally, you need more than one. Depends, though, especially on how many Wastelands there are in your meta...

About Jotun Grunt, I really dislike him. He only shines against Thresh(for his brand of Graveyard hate is faaar too slow against other decks, and Loam can dodge it by dredging up the loam and not keeping it in the Grave during your upkeep), and against Thresh I'd rather have a guaranteed 5-turn clock in Tombstalker(including the turn you play him, where he has summoning sickness); Tombstalker also flies where Jotun Grunt gets chumped by 1/1 Mongeese, then Bolted out of play(or, otherwise, just chumped by /1 Mongeese).

Against other decks, Grunt is merely a 4/4 for two that dies easily. Why not the possibility of a 5/5 for two that flies, can't be EE'd/Powder Keg'd, can't die on its own, as compared to a 4/4 which hoses one deck and is merely subpar against the rest of the meta(Tombstalker is at least as good as Grunt against Thresh, for the reasons I have mentioned)?

lolosoon

11-16-2007, 09:00 AM

Jotun Grunt, I really dislike him.
(...) I'd rather have a guaranteed 5-turn clock in Tombstalker
You're not the only one who run Tombstalker in place of Grunt. Still, Sensei's Top was added beside the Stalker in my deck to minimize le LifeLoss risk with confidant.

HERE (http://www.germagic.de/dc/deck.php?id=12022) is a list played at GP Krakow (http://www.planetmtg.de/articles/artikel.html?id=3389&typ=2&action=comments) and made top8 in a 47 player sideEvent.

I'm not fond with the Flooded Strand and basic Plain as 1-of's thought. Fetching a basic plain with only 4xStP and 4xVindicates when running 3xShades is not that hot, evenmore with only one way to fetch it.

Idem for the lone Thoughtseize. I can understand a 3/2 split between Duresses and Seizes due to life loss problems, but I'd rather play Duress as Thoughtseize #4-5 than run a Thoughtseize as Duress #4-5.

Meta choice I suppose ?

Deckbreakdown:
Goblins: 6
Burn: 4
Grow: 4 (2 R, 1 W, 1 U/G)
Belcher: 3
IGG (Iggy Pop): 1
Solidarity: 4
Dredge: 3
Ying Yang: 3
Landstill: 2
43Land.dec: 2
Terrageddon: 1
AngelStaxx: 1
Affinity: 1
Survival: 1
AyB.aseruption: 1
BDW: 1
Rogue: 9

cann0nfodder

11-16-2007, 09:12 AM

I was just looking at your side event breakdown and what the heck is yin-yang? I hope it is not some fancy name for B/W pikula.

lolosoon

11-16-2007, 09:42 AM

I was just looking at your side event breakdown and what the heck is yin-yang? I hope it is not some fancy name for B/W pikula.
Yup, Germans (and even Sourcers) call DeadGuy Ale YingYang.

I think (but I'm not certain) that YingYang was in fact B/W disruption.dec before GP:Philly and Chris Pikula success with his Homebrew deck.

Well, YingYang, Pikula.dec, Deadguy, B/w Confidant... who cares ?! It's the deck and the pilot which really matter, not the (fancy) name.

electrolyze

11-18-2007, 11:11 AM

now, i becomed 9th(again, just like the tourney before this:tongue: ) on my tourney last saturday and this were my mu's:

1xelf beatdown, 1-2
1xr/g beatz, 2-0
1xtes, 1-2
1xvaka pox, 2-1
1xmirror(deaguy ale with descendants), 2-1

next weekend the dutch national championship is coming and i want to play this list:

4xconfidant
2xtombstalker(you people are totally rigth, this creaure is awesome instead of grunt)
3xshade
3xspctral lynx(you may say what you want about this but i have won so many games with this creature and hes super good against too many decks)

4xstp
4xdark ritual

4xvindicate
4xsinkhole(i putted this card back because i really like it and i was missing it for many times on my tourney last saturday)
2xduress
2xthoughtseize(because otherwise i lose too much life i've discovered so i've choosed for the 2/2slpit with duress)
4xhymn

3xengineered explosives

4xscrubland
4xmire
1xgodless shrine
1xtomb of urami
4xwasteland
7xswamp

sb:

3xdisenchant
4xegineered plague
4xchainer's edict(this card is really awesome against almost every aggro-control/aggro deck, i won many games on this card too)
4xwithered wretch

i dont splash any color for more counters on ee and grips side becasue it made my mana base really unstable.

i think this list has good mu against every deck and especciale aggro-control decks.

any suggestions?

Wallace

11-18-2007, 11:15 AM

Wow, good luck man, this list looks solid, just pray you don't hit Tombstalker off of Bob. Be sure to post your results on this list, I have always loved dead guy and I am looking for a list that can compeat in the current meta.

electrolyze

11-18-2007, 11:25 AM

thank you very much, i think this list is really good in the current meta because with 8 dicard and trhe enigneered explosives i always have a good combo mu(okay, i lost to tes but it was the first time i play aginast that deck and really didnt know how to play against it and he was a very expierienced player so..). against thresh i have a supergood mu because i play too much answers on their creatures and my stalkers are bigger(and i always have a 3th stalker for whenever you need it:p tomb of urami)

and against aggro i usually win(and i thougth fast aggro was really bad for this deck but it seems not) but swarm aggro liek elves are realy difiicult, especially with the new lorwyn elfs. i had 2xplagues and they still can win.

i'm really excited how im going to play on the champs, i hope i get to the t24(then i have a price:p)

if i have a good prestation on the champs i wil write a report.

Hummingbird TG

11-19-2007, 04:55 AM

2xtombstalker(you people are totally rigth, this creaure is awesome instead of grunt)

This man talks sense. Why doesn't *everyone* convert to Stalker? Grunt is history.

Also, what's everyone think of the TES matchup? Even with 11 discard(3 Hymn, 4 Duress, 4 Seize) (but no Hyppies), and 3 Engineered Explosives main, I still seem to be losing...badly...Advice/suggestions anyone?

electrolyze

11-19-2007, 07:35 AM

maybe you could put orim's chant into the sideboard, its a very good card against this kind of combo. you can play it after a iggy, tutor or whatelse tes have to search for the kill.

i'm going to test them but i dont have them in real life so i dont think a can play them at the champs if i like them in the sb.

about my sb:

4xwretch
4xchainer's edict
3xdisenchant
4xengineered plague

i want to cut something for extirpates(or chants) but i dont know what?

i dont need the disenchant that much against many mu's and the plague not too much too. should i cut one disenchant and one or 2 plague for 3 extirpates or 3 chants? maybe a 4th chant or 4th extirpate instead of a wretch? what do you think what is better?

rsaunder

11-19-2007, 03:55 PM

This man talks sense. Why doesn't *everyone* convert to Stalker? Grunt is history.

I still disagree. Especially while goyf is still huge, grunt is still playable and perhaps preferable.

electrolyze

11-19-2007, 04:17 PM

i know that grunt is good against ghoyf but stalker is good against goyf too when it is 4/5. and with all my maindeck removal and lynxes there is no reason i would play grunt over tombstalker against thresh.

i know grunt it is really good against loam decks but many loam decks win on there creatures and if you have a bigger creature with evasion you can kill much faster then he kills you.

except for 43 land but you probably dont win this mu except if your opponent is mana screwed:laugh: not funny:tongue:

Wallace

11-19-2007, 04:26 PM

maybe you could put orim's chant into the sideboard, its a very good card against this kind of combo. you can play it after a iggy, tutor or what else tes have to search for the kill......

I have been testing chant in the main board for a few weeks now and it is awsome!!! I still prefer Grunts to Tombstalker, after loseing 8 life, twice in one game and once in the next game I will bprob. not play Stalker any more.

electrolyze

11-19-2007, 04:57 PM

i'm glad to hear that chant works realy good, but main?

i'm really interested in your list?

about the stalker, i've one revealed the stalker against thresh and i've won that game because of the beating of stalker.

Wallace

11-19-2007, 05:04 PM

My current Dead Guy list:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Nantuko Shade
3 Spectral Lynx
3 Jotun Grunt
1 Withered Wretch

4 Thoughtseize
3 Duress
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Smother
4 Orm's Chant
4 Vindicate
2 Extirpate
1 Seal of Cleansing

4 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
5 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold

SB:
4 E. Plague
2 Extirpate
1 Smother
3 COP Red
2 Withered Wretch
3 Seal of Cleansing

EDIT: Match Up's:

Goblins: This is a tough match, game one you will lose 85% of the time. After the board comes in you will have 4 x E. Plague 4 x Smother, 4x STP and 2 x E.E. and the game is a little eaiser. This is prob. one of your tougher match ups, COP red is in the board and will come in handy.

Combo: Belcher, Breakfast, TES and Icorid: Combo is always a strange MU, I think deck has the advantage. With the 7-8 main board :b: discard spells, the 2 main deck Extirpate and the Orm's Chants all of these matches should go well for you.

Thresh: Haven't really played this match much. Tarmogoyf is no problem due to the 7 ways to kill him main decl. Mongoose presents a small problem but if you can get a Grunt or Wretch going then the match gets much eaiser. The board can provide more help with Wretch, Layline of the Void and Extirpate all available to you.

Landstill: Another deck you need a good start against, the MB Duress and Seize will help alot. The fact that the deck doesn't play conventional creatures makes the STP's and Smother's a little less valuable. Wasteland is big here, knocking out there slim manabase and keeping there Factories at bay. You opponents wastelands can hurt, you need to play smart and make sure you only fetch Scrub's when ya really need them.

Goyf Sligh: This match can go either way, its tough though. This match is prob. wose than goblins, you don't run Hymn so the little bit of discard you do play is key. Thoughtseize will prob. come out for C.O.P. Red, this match up is the reason COP red is in the board. Make sure you always know what your life total is, Goyf Sligh can alpha Strike for a lot of damage at any time, be carful with your Bob's and Thoughtseize's.

electrolyze

11-19-2007, 05:18 PM

that list looks really quick and solide but i would cut the 1-off seal and put or a duress or a wretch extra in it. otherwise i should change it to a one of engineered explosives because it can kill nasty arti's and enchantments(and a bunch of goblin tokens, mongoose, goyfs, etc.) too.

really like to hear what kind of mu's you already played and how'd you preformed against this decks because the list looks more faster because of the 1c cards and more slots because you cutted, rituals, and play less land.

electrolyze

11-26-2007, 07:54 AM

the dutch championship was not so really good for me, i ended up 4-3 for a 43 place from the 125 participants.

my mu's were:

mono red aggro(really bad deck) 2-0
wild zombies 0-2
iggy pop 2-0
deadguy rock 0-2(i was really mana screwd otherwise i had win this game)
burn, 1-2
empty the slogger(kind of dragon stompy) 2-0
angel staxx 2-0

i played this list:

4xconfidant
3xshade
2xstalker
3xspectral lynx

3xengineered explosives

4xdark ritual
4xstp
2xextirpate

4xhymn to tourach
4xduress
2xthougthseize
4xvindicate

4xscrubland
1xgodless shrine
4xmire
4xwasteland
1xtomb of urami
7xswamp

sb:

3xdisenchant
4xwretch
4xplague
4xchainer's edict

i really like this list and i see no changes for now, i had just really bad luck against burn and deadguy rock because normally i always win this match.

the dutch championships are won by a german:confused: but this decks were in the t8:

1 4cfish
2 tes
3 survival
4 ichorid
5 deadguy ale
6 deadguy rock
7 engineered CALL(a loam deck with seismic assault)
8 dragon stompy

Deviruchi

11-26-2007, 01:32 PM

Nice decklist from dutch championship top8:

Quarter-Finalist: Ziming Chen

Deckname: Pikula’s Homebrew

Maindeck:
4 Wasteland
3 Scrubland
1 Godless Shrine
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tainted Field
7 Swamp
4 Dark Confidant
3 Jötun Grunt
3 Nantuko Shade
2 Withered Wretch
3 Hypnotic Spectre
4 Sinkhole
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate
4 Dark Ritual
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard:
4 Engineered Plague
2 Masticore
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
3 Extirpate
2 Withered Wretch
2 Pithing Needle

[all top8 -> http://www.kvdeckmasters.nl/Forum/index.php?topic=9554.msg172285#msg172285 ]

As we can see Ritual -> Hypnotic is still strong, also Sinkholes.

electrolyze

11-26-2007, 01:50 PM

yes, ive cutted hippies a long time ago but after being on this tournament i see that hes still really good with ritual.

sinkhole is good too because there were many 3c or 4c decks.

maybe i'm really going back to the old build. but explosives are so uber good.

wretch main looks good too because there were many grave depending decks in the tournament.

rsaunder

11-26-2007, 07:53 PM

What was the meta like where this did well?

electrolyze

11-27-2007, 01:11 AM

the meta was really variated but the most decks were aggro-control.

and there were many loam decks as wel.

rsaunder

11-27-2007, 02:54 PM

the meta was really variated but the most decks were aggro-control.

and there were many loam decks as wel.
So saying "mostly like Goyf based aggro with a smattering of loam and almost no combo" would be accurate?
I'm not trying to be a dick, just seeing what works against what.

electrolyze

11-27-2007, 02:58 PM

there was many combo as well, but the most decks were indeed goyfs based aggro control decks.

electrolyze

12-01-2007, 02:37 PM

ok, after more testing with the old build and my own build i decided to play sinkholes again because they can be really good against almost every deck.

about hippie, i still dont know what i should do with it. most of the time i actually casted a hippie he get killed or countered and the games he actually stayed in play for a few turns he did not so many really good things. the people were i play against say that hippie is too good to not be played.
i like hippie bu i really miss spectral lynx in the build wich i liek really much because it did so many good thing for me.

btw, heres my new list:

4xconfidant
3xhippie
3xshade
2xtombstalker

4xdark ritual
4xswords to plowshares

4xvindicate
4xsinkhole
4xhymn
2xthoughtseize
2xduress

3xengineered explosives

4xscrubland
1xgodless shrine
4xwasteland
4xbloodstained mire
1xwindswept heath
1xplains
5xswamp

sb:

4xengineered plague
4xchainer's edict
4xwithered wretch
2xextirpate
1xengineered explosives

i like this list but i think im gonna cut hippie for spectral lynx or withered wretch.

i play one plains and one heath for the plains becasue of that irritating ..moon
cards. now i can actually play a explosives for 3 when a moon is played:laugh:

does someone has reccomments on this list?

Tao

12-01-2007, 03:55 PM

i like this list but i think im gonna cut hippie for spectral lynx or withered wretch.

I would go with 4 Thoughtseizes. Especially in a deck like Ale that's most feared card type is "creature" adding that card type to the spell is worth 2 life.

Add the 4th Shade before you start adding Lynxes.

Tacosnape

12-03-2007, 02:25 AM

Alright, so, since Sinkhole becomes less and less useful the more that Legacy develops, and Thoughtseize is freaking sweet, I've been wanting to remake this deck packing playsets of Duress, Thoughtseize, Hymn, and Verdict for complete hand annihilation. This would also include H-Speck, Confidant, Shade, the ever versatile Vindicate, and some form of noncreature kill, either a 2/2 split of Scroll/Something else, or just 4 copies of The Rack.

I suppose a sample list of what I'm assembling might be something like this.

4 Scrubland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
8 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual

4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Gerrard's Verdict
4 Vindicate

4 Dark Confidant
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 The Rack (Or 2 Scrolls, 2 Explosives, or something of that nature)

SB:
4 Engineered Plague
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Extirpate
3 Pithing Needle

So I guess I'm mostly curious if anyone's really reinvestigated the possibility of a discard-heavy build since the printing of Thoughtseize.

rsaunder

12-03-2007, 09:48 AM

Problem is, even with my current discard suite (of 3 duress, 3 seize, and 4 hymn) they're completely dead after like turn 4. Especially without land destruction to keep your opponent from playing their topdecks, more discard will almost certainly translate into more dead draws late game.

There are remidies to this (top, etc.) but nothing spectacular. Have you tried it? How did it work?

Shtriga

12-03-2007, 10:08 AM

cheddercaveman

12-03-2007, 10:32 AM

@Taco - Instead of the Rack, Scroll, EE why not run Jotun Grunt? Seems better at dealing damage than The Rack, and it hoses any 'goyf that flew under the radar. I think it seems like a better quality card for a deck like this.

Hummingbird TG

12-03-2007, 11:08 AM

Screw Grunt. Play Stalker. Thresh isn't the world, and Stalker is miles better against almost everything else.

@ Taco:

No offense, but your build seems horrible against Thresh; the discard isn't fast enough, and you don't have any real answers. There isn't even Dystopia in the board...how does the Matchup play out?

@Everyone:

What do you think about Shriekmaw in the deck? He's versatile and evasive(although slow...), and kills every creature in Thresh...

electrolyze

12-03-2007, 11:50 AM

i dont like shriekmaw because i play stalket too and shriekmaw hurts too much with confidant if youre running stalker and vindicate too.

this is my new list:

3xlynx
4xconfidant
3xshade
2xtombstalker

4xstp
4xritual

3xexplosives

2xduress
2xthougthseize
4xhymn
4xvindicate
4xsinkhole

4xscrubland
1xgodless shrine
4xwasteland
7xswamp
1xtomb of urami

sb:

4xchainer's edict
4xwinthered wretch
2xextirpate
1xexplosives
4xengineered plague

i play sinkholes again because i really like them and there even good againt loam decks if you play it right.

i moved my 'pates to the sideboard becuase they did not very much in the mainboard. i think i'll cut the 1 explosives side to a 3th extirpate but on this moment i own but 2 extirpates.

the only thing my build sucks against is a resolved ...moon, i have almost no answers on this except for beating harder then he does. i already play with a plains in the mainboard and a single heath but it really sucked. maybe smother or something in the main would be good?

Tacosnape

12-03-2007, 12:44 PM

Keep in mind I haven't even played my above build but like, thirty or forty games.

Threshold, or all two matches I played against it, only seems to turn awful if I cut The Rack, which is a large reason of why I'm running it. The Rack is good against Threshold. I went 0-2 without it, and 2-0 with it, though it's fair to say the two games I lost were blowouts and the two I won were fairly close. The main reason I win games against Thresh is by managing some serious hand disruption, a Confidant or Specter, The Rack, and usually some ground stalling against Tarmogoyfs via Nantuko Shade or Vindicate. (I literally won game one by topdecking a Hymn with two Racks on the table after chump blocking a Goyf/Mongoose combination.)

As for the discard being dead midgame, I'm aware. I might downgrade a Duress or two after some more testing.

I'm not playing Jotun Grunt because Jotun Grunt is awful. It can improve Threshold or Ichorid matchups all day long and it's still a bad card.

@Shriekmaw and Tombstalker: These are not a good idea with Dark Confidant. Although you might get away with this if you had Sensei's Divining Top.

Hummingbird TG

12-03-2007, 01:49 PM

@Shriekmaw and Tombstalker: These are not a good idea with Dark Confidant. Although you might get away with this if you had Sensei's Divining Top.

Actually, I do run Top. I find it makes the deck run far smoother. Besides, I already run Bob and fetches, so why not?

On the Rack: What if you don't draw it/don't draw enough? The way you put it, the Thresh matchup seems to basically be based on drawing 1 of 4 cards fast.

Wallace

12-03-2007, 03:04 PM

Why would anyone play the rack in legacy, a format where Brainstorm, standstill and/or FOF are in like 75 % of decks? The rack really needs your opponents hand to be empty to work, not to mention the fact that if you play sinkhole it will leave more cards in there hand.

Top is nice to have in dead guy, it's really nice if you run Tomb Stalker.

Hummingbird TG

12-03-2007, 03:55 PM

Because when Tacosnape talked about the Rack, he was discussing its use in a deck with 16 discard spells, 8 of which discard 2 cards.

Emerald

12-03-2007, 04:24 PM

...

No offense, but your build seems horrible against Thresh; the discard isn't fast enough, and you don't have any real answers. There isn't even Dystopia in the board...how does the Matchup play out?

...

Don't you kill yourself running Dystopia? I mean, the damage isn't that low.

Tao

12-03-2007, 04:35 PM

You destroy one creature, a Goyf or a Goose for 0 life, which is fair. Then in your upkeep you decide if you want to destroy another Goyf for 1 Life which is usually fair too. Then in your next upkeep, if your opponent still has a creature left, which is unlikely, you pay 2 life to destroy a 3rd creature which is still very fair. And if he somehow manage to still have a creature left, you kill a 4th creature for 3 life unless you'd kill yourself or you'd go down to 3 against Red Thresh and could handle the creature with your board and hand cards, too.

Hummingbird TG

12-03-2007, 04:36 PM

Personally I prefer Damnation. It's generally a surprise, they don't expect it.

Eldariel

12-03-2007, 05:47 PM

Regarding Dystopia: Actually, you destroy one creature without cost. 2 creatures for 1 life, 3 for 3 life. 4 would cost 6 life, but when has Thresh had 4 creatures out? If they do, chances are you're happy to pay it knowing they just lost half the threats in their deck.

Regarding The Rack: The Rack is actually awesome against Brainstorm-decks. Brainstorm doesn't increase your card count nor does anything else in Threshold-style decks (cantrips just increase your card quality and guess what? Discard-deck doesn't care about your card quality, every card is equal to discard-effects), so every card they play, and every discard-spell is -1 cards in their hand, thus activating the Rack real quick as they replenish much more slowly. It's not perfect against control, but it's quite good against midrange, and you can empty just about any deck's hand with that discard suite. Remember that if someone holds cards back, they're playing right into your hands, so the optimal route is to fill up the board, else they're just giving you use for your discard-spells. The potential MUs where the Rack might be a lackluster are Goblins and board control (which you should do very well against to start with).

Tao

12-03-2007, 06:06 PM

You are right, my bad. I player that card on tourneys, and I played it right, then. Sorry for the confusion. I edited my post.

I don't agree with the rack. While threats like Shade, Tombstalker and Confidant and also cards like Spectral Lynx or Cursed Scroll help to fight to gain control over the board, the rack is doing nothing except dealing damage. That only works if you are in the offense and your opponent can't outrace you, In times of Goyf it is not unlikely that he will be just faster than you.

Galroth

12-03-2007, 06:07 PM

@ Tacosnape

I've played around with alot of discard variants - if you splash white it ultimately ends up looking like Deadguy. General advice, if you're going heavy discard, keep your mana curve low as possible. Also you want to keep your threat count high as possible. If you can afford a splash, then you probably want a way to fix your draws.

Recommendations:

1) As much as I love vindicate, it comes on a bit late and when it finally does, it's almost always will take a full turns worth of mana. I'd cut 1x. Seems so insignificant, but you never want 2x in your opening hand.

2) Threats! Tombstalker is worth a thought, not great synergy with Confidant but I'd atleast consider it for a moment. A better inclusion if you're going Discard Heavy: Nezumi Shortfang, probably against as a 2-of. Another rack effect, recurring discard - the drawback, he needs to be brought online a little slowly. The last thing you want to do with your turn 2 play is drop this guy. Cursed scroll is another good edition.

3) Card Manipulation - Sensei's Diving top. If you're going to run Confidant and Fetches, then this is practially a must for Discard. Those late dead draws into discard are shuffled away and you can mitigate any life loss effects the majority of the time. This, in my opinion is probably the most important development to the deck.

Really though, I have to ask why anyone would play discard with a white splash (i.e. deadguy with heavy emphasis on discard) over other variants? As much as I love discard, it's weak in this form. The reasons to run white: Stp (which is sideboarded - and rightly so I think in your deck), Vindicate (the real reason, but not nearly as powerful as when it was complimented with Sinkhole and legacy's environment was a bit different), and Verdict, which is the weakest discard spell hear. Cabal Therapy is debateably better, especially when you're running both Thoughtseize and Duress.

That's my two cents. Best of luck. I like the innovation if nothing else. A sidenote: I'd really recommend the discard with burn variants if you want a splash. In my opinion, they're strictly better than that incarnation. Good luck whatever you choose.

Hummingbird TG

12-04-2007, 02:22 AM

Any suggestions or comments on Shriekmaw, anyone? I personally find it fine, it's not dead against creatureless decks much either.

electrolyze

12-04-2007, 04:04 AM

i really like shriekmaw in many decks but i think, if youre not running top, shriekmaw hurts too much with confidant, especcially when youre running tombstalker too.

may i see youre list because im really interested now.

Tao

12-04-2007, 07:42 AM

I don't like Maw, too. You already have better spot Removal with Swords and even Smother would be superior as a removal to Maw beacuse it hits Bob and Ravager.

Getting 5 Mana and then having an opponent who has an unprotected, targetable creature is unrealistic. It won't happen with consistence, maybe once every 7 games. I've played some tourneys with GBW Survival now and I have NEVER hardcasted my Shriekmaw in them.

And even with Top in the deck you shouldn't overload Bob with High CC spells, 3 Stalker are enough.

Hummingbird TG

12-10-2007, 08:47 PM

Wallace

12-10-2007, 09:06 PM

All depends on the deck you are playing against. If you are playing against Combo then a turn one Seize is the right call, after thatit's really up to you. If the match calls for card advantage then cast the Arena, or just play bob and then you can drop the Seize and the card drawer. Hope that helps.

rsaunder

12-10-2007, 09:07 PM

A question on playing Thoughtseize: Is there any situation where playing a Thoughtseize in hand turn 1 is not the right play? (examples, please, too)

Say, if I have a hand of Land, Land, Rit, Arena, Thoughtseize, Stalker, Vindicate/Swords or something, would the better turn one play be Rit-> Arena or Thoughtseize?My first thought would be that someone messed with my deck because I'm playing arena. That being said, I almost never get hands with my build that don't have a good 2cc card to drop off of a rit along with a duress/seize. That being said, if I do have such a hand, especially game 1 the look at my opponent's hand is something that can't be overlooked, especially if I can then procede to destroy it.

If I know my opponent is playing a deck that has no relevent plays untill turn 3, I'd considering ritting into something else, but even then, it's up in the air.

Galroth

12-10-2007, 09:10 PM

If you're hand is Dark Ritual, Hypnotic Specter, it's game 2 and you know what your opponent is playing, and it's unlikely they're packing any more removal than 4x swords. Sometimes going for broke is the best option. Turn 2 random discard plus Thoughtseize plus whatever else 1 mana will buy you is game ending the majority of the time. Same argument could apply to Negator if you run him.

Otherwise Thoughtseize is absolutely ridiculous (practically on par with Dark Ritual).

Hummingbird TG

12-11-2007, 12:18 AM

My first thought would be that someone messed with my deck because I'm playing arena. That being said, I almost never get hands with my build that don't have a good 2cc card to drop off of a rit along with a duress/seize. That being said, if I do have such a hand, especially game 1 the look at my opponent's hand is something that can't be overlooked, especially if I can then procede to destroy it.

If I know my opponent is playing a deck that has no relevent plays untill turn 3, I'd considering ritting into something else, but even then, it's up in the air.

I'm thinking about running 1 Arena 3 Bob because of the high cc cards in my deck, coupled with the fact that I never want more than one Bob at one time(3 Maw, 2 Stalker). About the 2cc cards, I find myself increasingly afraid of Spell Snare...but I still do have a number of them, namely 3 Bob, 3 Shade, 3 Evoked Shriekmaw, 3 Hymn to Tourach. Is that too little?

rsaunder

12-11-2007, 04:21 PM

I honestly can't believe you're cutting hymns. But I guess that's beside the point. My list plays 4 bob, 3 shade, 3 grunt (that doesn't really count for our little example), 3 smallpox, and 4 hymns. So your numbers look good (if not better than mine for 2cc count). The problem is that evoked shriekmaw doesn't really help the hypothetical situation you set out, so I don't know. Is your curve otherwise sound? If so it shouldnt matter.

electrolyze

12-13-2007, 02:07 PM

ater some testing work this is my new list that im probably gonna play at the belgium championships:

4xconfidant
3xshade
3xgrunt
2xstalker

3xexplosives

4xvindicate
4xsinkhole
4xhymn
2xduress
2xthoughtseize

4xstp
4xritual

4xscrubland
1xgodless shrine
4xwasteland
4xbloodstained mire
1xtomb of urami
7xswamp

sb:

4xwretch
4xedict
4xplague
3xextirpate

i've cutted lynxes because they were too weak and slow compared with grunt, grunt does in a other way the same thing, it irritates thresh and even loam decks and he has a 4/4 body wich can block most angry things and can kick much harder than the lynx.

i play 21 lands because i dont want to cut something for a 22th land, its maybe more risky but i'll take the risk for running more threaths.

i know stalker+grunt isnt so good but they are both too good and i really want to run them both so thats the reason there both in the deck and i can play it good enough too let them work toghether even they dont are a good combination:p

what do you people think of this list?

greets, electrolyze

lolosoon

12-13-2007, 03:11 PM

@electrolyze: I like your list, really. Seems solid.

Still, Grunts and Stalker are really inherently counter-productive when run together when Goyf+Stalker is not. That's why I splashed green in my build.

I don't want to mess with this thread by beeing off-topic but I just want to share my recent experience with the Bgw build.

My critter base is the same as yours, beside the Grunt<=>Goyf switch :
When you've taken the reins of the game, your 2cc beatsticks have the best power/cost ratio affordable in this colours (minus Negator, but he's currently unplayable imho) and are a 4turns clock for your opponent.

Frightened of the 8 lifeloss of Tombstalker revealed on Confidant, I've packed 2 Sensei's Divining Top MD :
With Confidant, Fetchlands (I play 4 Mires, 3 Deltas) and Top, my draws are never painfull nor useless. I do think Top is worth MD material.

I feel that Dark Ritual is not that needed :
You don't have Hyppies for "awesome" T1 plays. Sure it permits huge start with the discard and black critters you're packing, but I'd rather play an consistant deck than a deck with random explosiveness.
Furthermore, without Shade (or Tomb of Urami) in play it's an awful TopDeck.

I'd drop the rituals for 1xThoughtSeize, 1xLand, 2xSensei's Top personally.

With Top, I would sneak in some Deltas :
First, they're food for your Grunts and Stalkers. With Top, the shuffling effect is stellar. Sure, It's a bit painful, but Top avoid further pain when active.

Finally, no Smothers ?!
Don't you think that the lifeGain of the 4 StP you're packing could be too much of a help for your opponent when you're already pinging yourself with Confidant and Thoughtseize ? I've dropped 1 Sword to Plowshare for 1 random Smother now. Plus, Smother don't require splash colour to get rid of pesky critters like, say, Magus of the Moon ?!
Dunno if it's a good call, but I think you can see the logic behind this choice.

Good luck with the deck at Mol (where the tourney will take place) by the way, maybe I'll make the trip from Lille and see you there !!

Regards,
Soon.

Wallace

12-13-2007, 03:31 PM

@electrolyze

So you're running Grunt and Stalker, how have you found the work together? Seems to me that they would be counter productive...

electrolyze

12-14-2007, 01:18 AM

@loloson, thanks for the comment and i know the green splash is better but i dont have the money for bayou, deed, goyf, deltas now so i'll keep it bw.

smother is a good card too and i already considerated it but there was no place for me in the deck. and im running vindicate and explosives as removal too. and after side i run the edict wich has won me a lot of games.

i really like dark ritual because i still play hymn, duss/thoughtseize, sinkhole, engineered explosives can be explode earlier, vindicate turn 2, shade to pump fatter, tombstalkert to play earlier, even confidant to play on turn one if its needed. i think i will keep them.

besides, i'll hope your coming too mol too, more people is always a good thing:laugh:

@sacearuse and other people

i know stalker and grunt are bad but i think a big flyer is needed because its a good finisher and a good blocker for many think like angel, i can kill goyf many times too, and many other things. im already searching for other good flyng creatures and the only 2 creatures i have in mind are avengern ans exalted. exalted hurts less then stalker with confi and have the life gain ability wich is super with confi. avenger is 2 mana so it dont hurts with confi and flying and vigilance is awesome i think. i will post results here after testting.