[Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant) [Archive] - Page 6

electrolyze

12-23-2007, 12:30 PM

a new tourney is coming up and i wanted to test a whole different kind of build i ever played, i wanted to play a builld with descendant and more aggro in it so here's the list:

4xconfidant
4xdescendant
4xjotun grunt
3xserra avenger

4xswords to plowshares

4xvinidcate
4xduress
4xthoughtseize
4xhymn
2xgerrard's verdict

2xumezawa's jitte

4xscrubland
1xtainted field
1xgodless shrine
1xtomb of urami
4xswamp
4xplains
3xbloodstained mire
3xwindswept heath

sb:

4xextirpate
4xyixlid jailer(this guy really owns against ichorid and a bit against loam.)
4xchainer's edict
3xengineered explosives

this list is more aggro and i really like jitte+avenger

i play 4 grunt becasue i think with the amount of discard a 4th grunt can be played.

my last tourney i did really bad with my old list and only won 2 times against ichorid and 1 times against pox and last against death and taxes, white thresh, burn, counterbalance tog.

that's the reason i wanted a more aggresive build with life gain to have a better mu against burn, d and t, and more other aggro decks like loam and stuff.

im not sure if im gonna play this or my old land descturction build with tombstalker, explosives, sinkholes, etc.

does somebody have recommendents on this list?

rsaunder

12-23-2007, 12:46 PM

You're playing 15 lands with no wastes or fetches. And a list that's well under 60 cards.

I was thuroughly underwhelmed by avenger when I played it a while back. Perhaps it's because I like playing the deck more like a control deck, but i just didnt think it went with how the deck was supposed to run at all, even with jitte. I would suggest wih a build like this though, a 22 land+4 mox diamond manabase for some accel. That was one successful bit of the heavier white splash from this summer.

electrolyze

12-23-2007, 01:27 PM

sorr, i forgert to put the fetch in the above list, i'll edit it.

Hummingbird TG

12-24-2007, 01:09 PM

Lists with 12 or more discard wouldn't mind the Rack. Especially 14 discard spells, which ensures the Rack's usefulness. How good is Descendant, though, may I ask?

rsaunder

12-24-2007, 03:08 PM

Speaking of 14 discard, i bet you're gonna spend a lot of time with a nice hand full of discard and your opponent in topdeck mode. Is that much really necessary or desireable?

galeng

01-03-2008, 04:48 PM

Hi,How do u SB versus Landstill or control in general with the deck??

Do you think is a good pairing??

Thanks

You don't. Your deck wrecks landstill already enough as it is. I don't even think sbing would even help the matchup since every card in the main deck is amazing vs. landstill. Also, landstill is barely played; why are you concerned?
Deadguy vs. Landstill is like Landstill vs. a Lorwyn theme deck.

Seriously.

Emerald

01-03-2008, 05:01 PM

Then I guess that 0-2 against Landstill the last day was luck obviously. :)

rsaunder

01-03-2008, 06:41 PM

Then I guess that 0-2 against Landstill the last day was luck obviously. :)

Which 0-2 exactly? I looked back like 3 pages.

And I think I'll be playing a deadguy variant at the Winter Wonderland saturday if I go. Although I'm damn tired of finishing 11th at every tournament I bother going to. Meh. [/bitching]

Any sweet new tech I should look at/consider guys?

Hummingbird TG

01-04-2008, 04:43 AM

I'm very interested in the variant Tacosnape posted that plays The Rack a few pages ago. I haven't really tried it much, though, but it seems fun(though im unsure how good it would be)...

But definitely, one thing I think should be for sure: Play Tombstalker. He's that good.

ImaBorgerman

01-09-2008, 09:29 AM

*bounce*

The creatures in B/W confidant were kind of stapled for a long time... did any of you guys tried Oona's Prowler though?
Personally I cutted 1 hypnotic specter and a shade for it and it's doing okay (2 hypnotic, 2 shades, 2 Oona's Prowler)
Whenever my opponent dump his cards to the Oona's Prowler, it's already generating major card advantage for me... moreever with the introduction of thoughtseize and my remaining discard spells, I could rape his hand for a long time...

electrolyze

01-09-2008, 09:39 AM

JDunkin00

01-09-2008, 06:24 PM

if i would play prowler i think cut my withered wretch in my list and keep the 3 shades and 3 hippies.

here is wat the list looks like that im gonnan test:

4xconfidant
3xshade
3xhyppie
3xgrunt
2xprowler/explosives/wretch/stalker, now im gonna test prowler

4xritual
4xstp

4xsinkhole
4xvindicate
4xhymn to tourach
4xthougthseize, never played 4 because of tombstalker but now im testing without.

4xfetch
4xscrub
4xwasteland
1xgodless shrine
1xtomb of urami
7xswamp

very standart build and i think thatsa the songest build, only the 2-off slot can be debatable in my list i think.

Prowler isn't that good loam has infinate fodder as does dredge decks horrible vs goblins. it may have application vs thresh but then again it gives them ability to get thresh quicker too. So I suggest tombstalker or up the hyppie shade counts. possible even diabolic edict.

Jeroen64

01-10-2008, 08:56 AM

if i would play prowler i think cut my withered wretch in my list and keep the 3 shades and 3 hippies.

here is wat the list looks like that im gonnan test:

4xconfidant
3xshade
3xhyppie
3xgrunt
2xprowler/explosives/wretch/stalker, now im gonna test prowler

4xritual
4xstp

4xsinkhole
4xvindicate
4xhymn to tourach
4xthougthseize, never played 4 because of tombstalker but now im testing without.

4xfetch
4xscrub
4xwasteland
1xgodless shrine
1xtomb of urami
7xswamp

very standart build and i think thatsa the songest build, only the 2-off slot can be debatable in my list i think.

How did your build with the Descendant of Kiyomaro turn out actually? I've always liked this creature and I'm thinking of running and/or tweaking your previous list.

electrolyze

01-10-2008, 09:27 AM

i didnt play the descendant build in real life cause i havent finished the deck and i miss too much cards for it to lend.

i tested it on mws and it worked out really good but i dont like to play that much aggro-ish so i didnt wanted to play it on a big tourney. maybe i had to play it on my last tourney cause there were many aggro decks:laugh:

JDunkin00

01-12-2008, 01:00 PM

How did your build with the Descendant of Kiyomaro turn out actually? I've always liked this creature and I'm thinking of running and/or tweaking your previous list.

Descendant usually rocks because of hymm keeps him big and they have to dump guys in front of him. The only bad times is when you get sinkhole vindicate wasteland smallpox, because he stays small with all their spells trapped in han dbut even then any creature can walk in the red zone. Also anyone still foolish enough to run prowler will never seen him hit bonus size.

Hummingbird TG

01-12-2008, 08:49 PM

Also anyone still foolish enough to run prowler will never seen him hit bonus size.

Huh? Doesn't Prowler make them dump cards?

Jeroen64

01-13-2008, 07:25 AM

Huh? Doesn't Prowler make them dump cards?
That's what I thought as well. Another concern I have is how to deal with wastelands, in order to get the double white and double black, isn't it hard? I'll find out soon though, because I have all the cards now and will test it thoroughly. I've also toyed this the idea of combining it with green for Doran, but this doesn't really concern this thread I suppose :cool:

Emerald

01-14-2008, 02:42 AM

Which 0-2 exactly? I looked back like 3 pages.

This was my personal result against the deck, so there obviously wasn't any advantage.

However, I will definitely test tombstalker. :)

Hummingbird TG

01-16-2008, 10:42 AM

I have recently returned to trying a land destruction build(i.e. 4 Sinkhole, Vindicate and Wasteland). I would liek to find everyone's opinion, though, on how much LD should go into such a build, and how many Sensei's Divining Tops should be run? (currently running 3 Tops, to support 3 MD Tombstalkers.)

List as follows:

4 Scrubland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
6 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual

4 Dark Confidant
3 Nantuko Shade
3 Hypnotic Specter
3 Tombstalker

3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Cursed Scroll

SB

4 Engineered Plague
4 Extirpate
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Swords to Plowshares

Emerald

01-17-2008, 06:14 AM

That is exactly what I wanted to do. Well, except for Shade.
Say what you want but I don't like him in this deck. I'll definitely go for Grunt or Lynx instead.

Hummingbird TG

01-17-2008, 07:22 AM

You want to wrap up the game *fast*. Lynx is a 2/1. It takes 10 turns to kill. Maybe if you played Jitte main, it could be useful(standing up to Tarmogoyf to grab counters every turn sounds nice)...But I don't, so its not much of a question.

I personally see Specter as the real necessary evil; playing it, however, greatly increases our Landstill or other Control matchups, which may probably be the only reason to play this deck right now...

On Grunt, however, he is good against Threshold, that I won't deny, but he's easy to counter/remove too, and takes many turns to be effective(i.e., he can get removed before he even stands a chance against Tarmogoyf in combat.). Past the first turn, Shade is constantly equally effective, and constantly can combat goyf if they just survive to a combat phase.

Besides, if Jotun Grunt is your lone threat, it's slightly hard to get through to 20 itself. Shade has it much easier.

ImaBorgerman

01-28-2008, 09:26 AM

*bump*

Are you guys still developing this deck? Keep the discussion and improvements going! :tongue:

On another note, how do you guys find/or have tested Bitter Blossom?

And will cards like Mauralen of the Mornsong find a slot in our deck?

Shtriga

01-28-2008, 11:18 AM

maralen is in my opinion one of the worst designed cards ever. it will give the opponent acess to the exact card they need next turn, before it even benefits you, or it just gives them a removal spell so you won't get to benefit from it at all

if it only affected you it would probably be a house. but this way it's just stupid

and nantuko shade is very much necessary here IMO, it's the best creature bar tarmogoyf to run in a black disruption deck

electrolyze

01-28-2008, 11:32 AM

i'm still playing it and trying to improve but i think the classic list(not the first one but the one with grunts, hippies, sinkhole, etc.) is the best one to play.

here's the list:

4xconfidant
3xhippie
3xshade
3xgrunt

4xstp
4xritual

4xhymn
4xthougthseize
4xvindicate
4xsinkhole

2xopen slot(i'm testing engineered explosives right now but you can play tombstalker or wretch in it too. if you play 2 stalker i would run 2 thougthseize less for 2 duress cause you dont know when you reveal a stalker with bob. you can play top too but then you have too look to hummingbird's list casue hes always running top and stalker).

4xscrubland
1xgodless shrine
4xwasteland
4xbloodstained mire
1xtomb of urami
7xswamp

sb:

depends on your meta but i would reccomend extirpate casue its very good.

i think this kind of list works the best on a tourney and has a good mu against everything.

in the 2 open slots you can play extirpate too, whatever you want:cool:

rsaunder

01-28-2008, 03:28 PM

I'd recommend EE or at least something that can deal with counterbalance. This deck runs such a narrow curve that if you run up against VA thresh and they get going, you're fairly screwed. Blood moon is also a problem, perhaps a dedicated disenchant effect? I don't know, at least EE eats goyfs fairly efficently.

electrolyze

02-04-2008, 05:41 AM

what do you people think about the dragonstompy mu?

i test it very much and t1 moon effect can be very nasty, but when i have a hippie and a shade i can win very hard(even with the moon effect).

i've had many games that he had a t1 moon and i t1 hippie, and i won because of the discard i did from hippie and other spells. when the deck is in topdeck mode it is very bad i think.

the other thing is, there were too many games he get a t1 moon effect and i had only duals en fetch in my hand, my question now is: should i play something like smother against magus or would a basic plains and a heath or something better against this mu?

there are way too many people here that wants too play dragonstompy suddenly because its cheap and very strong. that's the reaon i want to discus how to improve this mu.

Hummingbird TG

02-04-2008, 08:00 AM

WOOT! A DTW! I can't believe I'd see the day!

Anyway. Moon isn't that bad, except when turn 1. And even then I have basic Swamps, and can try(though sometimes, to no avail) to Top for them. But I think the matchup comes down to who has the more explosive start, and for this matchup I think it goes down to who wins the coin flip. (Oh, and BTW, I believe turn 1 Thoughtseize is a good way to cripple or seriously slow down any DS hand.)

Holo_rip

02-04-2008, 11:48 AM

woot, that's good to see such a deck back on the stage.
about the LD root, it's been more than a month that i'm back to it, and i must say that i've never regret this. I can sometime be a pain cause Threshold deck can work with 2/3 land but generally it's ok, cause we compliment it with discard.
i play 3 stalker/3top with a shell of 10 creature (4 bob, 3 stalker/hyppies).
i've only few finisher but i like to control the game and to win in 3/4 turn with stalker.
i also play two smallpox and i really low them, they compliment well the LD pack and act as removal/discard/stalker food.

i'll post my list later, don't have the time now.

regard,

Holo.

rsaunder

02-10-2008, 10:40 AM

It's a shame that this deck hit DTW and then everyone decided to stop working with it (I am as guilty as everyone else here, Grim Iggy has been taking all my time).

I'm sure going 3 color has been considered by at least some here. My question is "What's the best way to do so"? Can you support tombstalker and goyf in the same deck? Can you do it with bob? if you cant run all 3, is Goyf+stalker or goyf+bob or stalker+bob better? Is it worth running top to run stalker and bob together? Would you run top for card quality anyways? Is Deed an option or is being able to set EE for 3 good enough? Can we really get away with the 3 color manabase with Magus and blood moon running around? What does the sideboard look like? Is grunt just plain out for goyf and stalker? Will it play land D?

Does any one have any lists like this (preferably ones that have made T8 or something, like the reason this is now a DTW)?

Thanks in advance everyone!

electrolyze

02-10-2008, 11:21 AM

i'm still working on the b/w but i prefer the 3 c more,

this is the list i play(it is a really hard list and i almost never lose with it):

4xgoyf
4xconfidant
4xspectral lynx
3xdoran

4xdeed
3xengineered explisves

4xswords to plowshares
4xvindicate

4xthougthseize
4xhymn to tourach

3xbayou
3xscrubland
4xheath
4xbloodstained mire
2xforest
2xplains
4xswamp(many basics because of the amount of dragonstompy here)

sb:

4xgaddock teeg
4xtormod's crypt
4xextirpate
3xjitte

i really like this list, lynx and doran are not realy good with eachother but lynx is more like a answer on mana creatures in legacy and not for the beatz.

doran and goyf are the real beaters and they beat extremely hard, goyf gets really fast big and doran makes it only better.

maybe the mass removal seems a bit overkill but i really like mass removal and it fits reallly good in it i think.

i'm going to take this list to a upcoming tourney and i think i will write a little report then.

i'm testing a list with extirpates and tombstalkers too instead of 4 lynx and 1 explosives, 3 extirpate and 2 stalkers, but i dont like stalker with goyf in this deck. and he hurt very much with a confidant on the table. i will post my test results soon.

Shtriga

02-11-2008, 08:03 AM

7 mass removal does seem a bit overkill, especially since they have no synergy at all with your own creatures :) . I'd myself run for 3-4 slots of mass removal only (maybe 4 in any combination of your choice of deed and EE), and run extirpate MD. it can give you a ridiculous advantage over any deck. as long as they have 1 copy of their most dangerous/annoying card in the GY, you can get rid of all copies of it for good. all of their goyfs, fows, stp, bridges, jittes, IGG, counterbalance, blood moon, chalice, manland of choice, etcetera etc etc, with one single cast

Holo_rip

02-11-2008, 08:03 AM

Shtriga

02-11-2008, 08:48 AM

I just played some 6 games against a cret belcher deck. lost 5-1 :( he got turn 0-1 wins left and right, even against opening hands full of discard and extirpates (before I had the mana to play extirpate even). never played any1 with such consistency. the one I won was when I extirpated wish and cast deed against 12 tokens, with 2 5/6 goyfs on the table. and he would have won if he had 1 more mana, with a topdecked belcher

what I mean is, extirpate is a lot less usseful than I thought it would be, due to the sheer speed of some decks, and playing more than 1 win condition. it can still be useful though

Hummingbird TG

02-11-2008, 12:25 PM

a thing that i'll test during my next tournament (this week) is the introduction of two enlightened tutors and 1 moat (in my version, only DC hasn't flying), what you guys think of this ? i wrench many deck, from goblim to 43 land, annoys threshold/cephalid/combo/dredge.
so, overkill or good to test ?

regard,
Holo.

If you don't play green, it's just w.r.o.n.g. to not play Nantuko Shade. He's that good.

Oh, and about Moat? It's 4 mana, double White. How do you reliably play this, especially against Gobbos, 43land, Thresh with Stifle, .etc? Especially against counters, seeing as if they counter it you've wasted 4 mana and probably a turn. Although I confess it is a good topdeck.

For my anti-aggro card, I'd rather play a few more creatures and a Jitte though. (Probably cos I'm playing Nantuko Shade)

A general question: For the graveyard hate in the Sideboard, what do we use? I take it that Planar Void is out of the question as most of us run Stalker, so Leyline or Extirpate or Jailer?

Jailer can carry a Jitte and beat down, while Extirpate can snag Wasted Duals or win-cons from some decks, and Leyline is occasionally free(but sucks to draw in multiples...)

electrolyze

02-11-2008, 01:44 PM

play in bw deadguy jailer and extirpate side and they work really good. jailer especially against ichorid, but it works also against survival, loam and some other random decks. extirpate is just ridiculous against too many decks so thats the reason i run that too.

i dont liek planar void and leyline becuase they have to be in your opening hand to be most effective and it affects your grunts and (planar void) your stalkers too.

maybe tormod's crypt is good?

Hummingbird TG

02-11-2008, 02:01 PM

Wait. Both Jailers and Extirpate? What's your sideboard like?

electrolyze

02-11-2008, 02:36 PM

this is my sideboard:

4xchainer's edict
4xjixlyd jailer
2xengineered explosives(i run there 2 main, so the other 2 side)
4xextirpate
1xstupid random slot

i realy like the edict, most people dont but i've won many games on that thing.

the jailer and extirpate are not overkill i think cause, pate is against other things better than jailer and jailer the same for pate. maybe i could run something different in the ee slots and the open slot? but i dont know what.

but in the time i played legacy i discovered i am not the best one in making sideboards. on some tourney a time ago i even played 1 bayou main not for deed or goyf but for side krosan grips and ee for 3. there were so many counterbalance decks that i wanted krosan grips side.:tongue: too bad i went 9th on that tourney, thats just the stupidest place too end on a tourney i think:tongue:

but now i'm gonna spend some time on the gbw version, so i wont be able to post new bw builds. i played too much tourneys with bw so i wanted something new:laugh:

rsaunder

02-12-2008, 02:53 PM

So what exactly differentiates this deck from "Legacy Rock" now? Is it dark confident? I don't see much difference now that both started (continued) playing green.

electrolyze

02-12-2008, 02:59 PM

i think the difference with the rock is that the rock is running more expensive creatures in mana cost and i think this deck is faster than the rock.

i like the green splash because of goyf, deed, doran, gaddok teeg, ee for 3, krosan grip, etc. i think green makes the deck more consistent en stronger against more deck than bw.

i'm not playing explosives main anymore but i replaced them for 3 extirpate, i'm runngin them side now. you people were right it was overkill and extirpates helps me alot against stupid extremely hard loam decks i cant win from without pate or good topdecks.

Hummingbird TG

02-13-2008, 10:28 AM

Well, I'm not playing green. Yet. That's probably cause Goyfs are stupid expensive and just plain annoying, though. It's also because I don't attend tournaments.

Although I think BW would be more consistent with mana and let us play Wastelands? Besides, without playing Green it isn't that bad, since we have Stalkers to make up for the Goyfs...

Whit3 Ghost

02-13-2008, 11:42 AM

So what exactly differentiates this deck from "Legacy Rock" now? Is it dark confident? I don't see much difference now that both started (continued) playing green.
The LD package, Dark Ritual and the cheaper critters all change the focus of the deack towards more of the control-sui route instead of surviving to the midgame and playing bombs.

I've always hated this deck's manabase, so I'm not sure how consistent 3 colors is going to be. If it's a straight splash for Goyf over Grunt, then we could probably pull it of pretty easily and not hurt our strength off of Rituals.

I think Teeg is a welcome addition to this deck, making control and combo both infinately more favorable, as is Grip for additional counterbalance hate.

Also, with the addition of Goyf and/or Stalker, this deck can now afford to run some number of Swords to Plowshares. However, Smallpox should still be run. That card is a house.

Shtriga

02-13-2008, 03:45 PM

I used to run smallpox but at the end dismissed it because it was a bomb sometimes, but many times it was too symmetrical for my taste. besides I don't have room for it in the deck. its a good card nonetheless

tombstalker is dangerous to run with confidants, especially with no tops

I'm keeping the LD package, I love the tempo gain it gives you

and lastly, goyf is definitely worth splashing for, but it's important to not go overboard, because the mana base is already a bit stretched and is gonna suffer against the now rampant nonbasics hate. it also makes it harder to support wastelands, and makes dark ritual largely useless. grip and deed from the SB round out the green cards I use. if it weren't for tarmogoyf (damn you, damn you!!) I wouldn't even bother with the splash

Whit3 Ghost

02-13-2008, 06:39 PM

and lastly, goyf is definitely worth splashing for, but it's important to not go overboard, because the mana base is already a bit stretched and is gonna suffer against the now rampant nonbasics hate. it also makes it harder to support wastelands, and makes dark ritual largely useless. grip and deed from the SB round out the green cards I use. if it weren't for tarmogoyf (damn you, damn you!!) I wouldn't even bother with the splash
Really? You run 12 colored spells MD, max, I don't think Goyfy would hurt you that badly. You could also just run Lotus Petal or Mox Diamond to mediate that to a point.

But yeah, I think that if you go 3 colors, you NEED either STP or some form of black targetted removal, because Magus is going to shut you down. I had problems with him running a Swords-less 2c build.

rsaunder

02-13-2008, 09:26 PM

Cutting Hippy makes lotus petal an acceptable replacement for Rit. This could solve some mana woes (color-wise) and help pump our goyfs. Just sayin.

EDIT: 22 land:
4 Delta
3 Mire
3 Bayu
3 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
5 Swamp

This ought to work, especially with petals...

EDIT#2 : I'm probably too tired to be designing decks off the top of my head.

4 Goyf
4 Bob
2 Tombstalker
2 Shade

3 Seize
3 Duress
4 Hymn

4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
2 Smallpox

2 EE

4 Petal/accel of choice (you could probably get away with diamond here)

Average cc= 72/60 (I think i counted right) = 1.x = okay hit from bob with stalker.

SB:
2 EE
2 serenity
3 Kgrip
1 seize
1 duress
4 Leyline (?)
2 Dystopia

I dunno, this prolly sucks ass.

EDIT #3: It's 74/60.

so 1.2333333333333 damage. With 2 stalkers it's about 1.25 damage a hit with bob. With 3 (replacing a 2cc) it's 1.333333333, so like +.1 damage when you replace a 2cc card with a stalker. As a basic figure.

EDIT #4 That list needs magus removal. Although petal should help.

f|i[p]

02-14-2008, 12:58 AM

@rsaunder

I like the creature base and discard, its also good that you didn't take off the land D part. I think the land D is what makes this deck very good specially that Landstill, thresh,dragon stompy and other decks are very vulnerable to it.

Although the creature kill, Id probably still stick with STP. although EE is versatile as it is,I find it slow and should probably stay in the sideboard. Small pox however I still dont agree with it, its been a long discussion about small pox and it goes pages back. sometimes its devastating for the opponent, at times it will hurt you as well because of discard and creature sacrifice which we dont really have much of. For me EE goes to the side.

So I think id go
-2 EE
-2 small pox
+4 swords to plowshare

As for lotus petals... I have no idea. It does however fix your mana and do add to tarmogoyf... I guess testing this more wold prove its worth.

As for the sideboard, I still prefer extirpate over leyline with your discard package and land destruction as you can use extirpate to remove a certain colored land from a player for the whole game, and thus screwing him more with your land D theme. Against landstill, extirpating tropical island would mean no more tarmogoyf or pernicious deed for them. Same goes for threshold and other decks who are vulnerable to land D, Unless they run basic forest which I highly doubt.

Hummingbird TG

02-15-2008, 11:59 AM

I'm wondering, for the Bw build, is it wise to splash 2 Bayous for 4 Gaddock Teeg in the board? (No Goyf, because 1. No green spells MD, 2. I hate Goyf, 3. We already have Stalker and Shade)

electrolyze

02-15-2008, 01:24 PM

i have an upcomming tourney and dont know what list to pick,

should i take the list hanni posted a time ago with a few moderations i like:

4xconfidant
4xgoyf
3xshade

4xdeed

4xvindicate
4xsinkhole
4xhymn
4xthougthseize

4xstp
3xextirpate

3xbayou
3xscrubland
3xheath
3xmire
4xwasteland
4xswamp
1xplains
1xforest

or should i take the list im testing for a long time now and has a great mu against many thing too:

4xconfidant
4xgoyf
4xspectral lynx/epochrasite(still am i tweaking between this two in the slot, lynx has a overal good mu against but epoch can be really hard against control but can come on the wrong moment or too late)
3xdoran

4xdeed

4xvindicate
4xhymn
4xthoughtseize

4xstp
3xextirpate

3xbayou
3xscrubland
4xmire
4xheath
4xswamp
2xforest
1xplains
1xmurmuring bosk/or should i take the second plains?

overall sideboard:

4xgaddok teeg
4xtormod's crypt
3xkrosan grip
1xextirpate
3xengineered explosives

i know, very weird sb but i includes all the answers i need.

first list is more land descturction and looks more like the original bw deadguy ale while the second list had more other colored cards in it but can be really fast and can be very controlly too and has less death topdecks like the first(sinkhole) and has a better mana base cause is has many fetch and no wastelands.

wich list is better in a random meta with all kind of decks you people think?

rsaunder

02-15-2008, 03:30 PM

Why don't either of the lists you posted have accel of any sort? The "1" part of your manacurve is empty (effectively only thoughtseize) and honestly, without accel for broken (d. rit) or semi broken (petal) openings, you seem to be starting in the hole against many decks.

"I'm wondering, for the Bw build, is it wise to splash 2 Bayous for 4 Gaddock Teeg in the board? (No Goyf, because 1. No green spells MD, 2. I hate Goyf, 3. We already have Stalker and Shade)"--Hummingbird

Why, if you're splashing green, would you NOT play the best goblin ever printed? He's the most cost effective creature in the game. Part of this decks problem was the lack of fat. If you're going 3 color you might as well play all the awesome (shade, stalker, and goyf) and pound it out. It's just silly to play the color in a deck that fuels graveyards like no other and not play goyf.

Whit3 Ghost

02-15-2008, 07:07 PM

After some brief testing of various lists, I've come to a few conclusions:
Your list needs to be removal heavy. The format has far too many good creatures for you to be running less then 10 removal spells. It's just going to end badly for you.
Ritual isn't as good with more than 2 colors. Lotus Petal has also sucked hard. I think our best option right now is 22-24 land and Diamond. It's a permanent, fuels Smallpox (if you're running it) like crazy and permanently gets around Wastelands and Moons. I've liked it alot in testing so far.
With all the discard and removal, it's very difficult to get a proper threat count. That's the one facet of the list that I'm not happy with, although, unlike older lists of this deck, you run 6 guys who are quite large.
With Hyppie cut, you need 10 discard spells if you really want any chance at putting pressure on them via discard.
I'm not sure what the last removal slot should be. In my list it's Smallpox, but EE, Edict, Condemn, Demise, E Plague and Smother are all viable options. I think it's a metagame choice.
The sideboard is a pain in the ass right now. I want to board the following mix of EE, Deed, Plague, Needle, Extirpate/Leyline, Dystopia and Teeg, but so many of those slots need to be 4ofs that it's difficult to determine what can be squeezed in.Anyway, here's my current list (*s mean subject to change depending on metagame):
// Lands
5 [TE] Swamp (4)
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [b] Scrubland
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [A] Bayou

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
2 [FUT] Tombstalker*
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
3 [US] Duress
3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (4)
4 [AP] Vindicate
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [TSP] Smallpox*
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top*

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle

Apologies for the somewhat spastic posting, I'm pretty tired atm.

rsaunder

02-20-2008, 08:52 PM

So sinkhole has been underperforming? I can't say I'm not surprised but what can ya do.

I love the discard suite (3 duress, 3 seize, 4 hymn) it seems really very balanced, and is the best one I've played to date. The removal suite though... is 4 smallpox too heavy? It seems like 12 is an awful lot of removal, even though all but 4 of it doubles as land/hand D. Especially with 3 colors, I'm tempted to run at least 2 EE, and that+vindicate+STP=10 removal. This gives 2 extra cards? I dunno, I'm posting this from Costa Rica where the drinking age is 18 and I've had a good 14 shots worth of rum tonight.

Meh!

Whit3 Ghost

02-20-2008, 09:51 PM

Wow, that's quite the drunkpostin' prowess. How's the trip(pin) been so far?

Anyway, the deck was built from scratch, I just didn't have room for Sinkholes. In a metagame full of control, they'd definately be coming back into the maindeck
As for smallpox I've liked it less and less the more I've tested it. EE is prolly coming back in the deck. I'm sort of nervous about going to 10 removal spells, and I think that's cutting it really close. Maybe 2 MD smother in those 2 other slots, or more creatures. I'm not really sure.

Also, EE has been realyl hit or miss for me lately, some games I lost because of it, where Petal would have worked out better. I guess more testing needs to be done.

Berzerked

02-21-2008, 03:32 AM

I personally run this setup:

4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
(4 Hypnotic Specter)

3 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Smallpox
4 Vindicate

My complete list looks nothing like yours (no Goyf/Mox/Top), but this suite has been working out well for me. EE is gold, and 2 (instead of 4) Smallpox reduces the problem of it showing up when I have board dominance. Sinkhole sucks.
I've been trying to squeeze SDT in my list somewhere but can't find the room/not willing to drop anything else. Think you can sell me on it?

Also, I don't really understand the Dark Ritual is no good with only two colors comment. I'm guessing it was a typo so I won't go on about it, but please fill me in if that was in fact what you meant to say.

arsenalpow

02-21-2008, 09:21 AM

This is a list I've been testing, its pretty balanced. I'm not sure if i'd rather have deed instead of explosives yet, but EE has been performing pretty well as a sweeper and as goyf fuel. I was also considering stripping the explosives for extra discard. The creature package has been quite strong as well. I prefer the enforcer over the Tombstalker as he hurts less when flipped by confidant, and he also doesn't interfere with goyf.

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Mystic Enforcer

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate

4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Mox Diamond
3 Engineered Explosives

4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
3 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains

Shtriga

02-21-2008, 09:53 AM

mystic enforcer, that's an interesting option I had never seen being considered. it's ultimately better than tombstalker as long as you have thresh

Whit3 Ghost

02-21-2008, 11:38 AM

Also, I don't really understand the Dark Ritual is no good with only two colors comment. I'm guessing it was a typo so I won't go on about it, but please fill me in if that was in fact what you meant to say.
I was thinking of saying Rit isn't as good with 3 colors, or is much better with 2, and combined both thoughts. I need to proofread more.

Enforcer seems really interesting, especially because without Grunt, we get Threshold pretty quickly.

arsenalpow

02-21-2008, 11:43 AM

My reasoning is this. When you cast the stalker you more than likely are eating at least 4-5 cards. Potentially this could shrink an active goyf which is what you don't want to do. Enforcer flys like tombstalker, is fatter than tombstalker, and has pro black. Enforcer also does not disrupt the graveyard.

The drawbacks are that he might be a little more difficult to cast, which means the manabase needs to be a little more streamlined. He also has the potential to die to a Deed for 4, whereas the tombstalker would be much harder to deed. He could also die to an EE for 4, but thats unlikely, whereas the tombstalker is impossible to EE.

At the moment the manabase has functioned well and the mox diamonds are sufficient accerlation, turn 1 sinkholes are fun!

Hummingbird TG

02-21-2008, 12:01 PM

On Enforcer VS Stalker:

1) Mystic Enforcer doesn't cost 2.
2) Mystic Enforcer requires both of your splash colours.
3) Mystic Enforcer can't be played under Moon easily(you need 2 Diamond to do that) unless you play Windswept Heath, and Heath doesn't fetch Basic Swamp(Therefore making you vulnerable to Wastes).
4) Enforcer doesn't hurt opposing Goyfs

And, why is everyone cutting Nantuko Shade these days?

On Shade VS Tarmogoyf

Shade
1) Shade has no reliance on the Graveyard
2) Shade only costs B to cast, therefore an early Shade doesn't open you to Wastes or Moons
3) Shade can eventually trade with or even kill a Goyf. While Goyf can never do that.

Goyf
1) Goyf doesn't require mana to become big
2) You're splashing G anyway, with Mox Diamonds, for Gaddock Teeg
3) Less vulnerable to damage-based Removal

Both
1) Become big over time

Thus I believe sticking to Shade is the correct option for us, primarily because Shade can actually kill Goyfs.

arsenalpow

02-21-2008, 12:47 PM

1) Mystic Enforcer doesn't cost 2.
Neither does Tombstalker, he counts 2+6 cards which can possibly shrink an active goyf. There have been time when i casted Tombsalker for 4-5 in order to save cards to keep goyf large. The stage in the game in which you cast him you should have 4 mana no problem.

2) Mystic Enforcer requires both of your splash colours.
This can be a problem

3) Mystic Enforcer can't be played under Moon easily(you need 2 Diamond to do that) unless you play Windswept Heath, and Heath doesn't fetch Basic Swamp(Therefore making you vulnerable to Wastes).
It can be an issue, just be smart about mana fixing early to prepare for this option later in the game

4) Enforcer doesn't hurt opposing Goyfs
Id rather vindicate or plow an opposing goyf than attempt to shrink my own GY to thwart him. Its even worse when you are playing with Goyfs as well, the effect is symmetrical.

1) Shade has no reliance on the Graveyard
but it requires a heavy commitment to resources to make him worthwhile. resources that sometimes need to be committed to other things

2) Shade only costs B to cast, therefore an early Shade doesn't open you to Wastes or Moons
Then we are comparing apples to oranges, I'm saying we use Enforcer as a finisher. You wouldnt run an enforcer out as soon as possible, why would it be any different for a shade. I've got other committments im going to try and establish early game

3) Shade can eventually trade with or even kill a Goyf. While Enforcer can never do that.
Goyfs typically dont grow past 5/6, 6/7 is rare but it happens and at that point its more than likely over, plus we have our own goyfs

rsaunder

02-21-2008, 08:18 PM

Enforcer worries me. He requires 2 off-color mana, which sort of makes him not so much difficult to cast (especially with diamond) but inconsistant. He does seem to be good at combatting stalkers and goyfs though. Definitely worth consideration!

And Whit3_Ghost:hit me up on Myspace, it's where ive been checking in frequently.

chokin

02-21-2008, 08:26 PM

Between 8 fetch and Mox Diamonds, I fail to see why Enforcer is so hard to cast. Sure Tombstalker is fat and can cost as low as 2, but we don't run 4 of Enforcer or Stalker. They are finishers...so by the time we have our boards developed, we can drop it fairly easily. With Confidant drawing us more stuff, it shouldn't be hard to get GW at all.

Osse

02-21-2008, 09:43 PM

You should be running 4 Tombstalkers, to be completely honest. He's amazing in this deck, and there's no reason "flipping him up with Confidant hurts" should be an excuse. I'm running 4 Top and 4 Confidant as my draw engine and have never come up with Tombstalker killing me from a flip. Most of the times where it would kill you, you've already lost anyways. I mean, most players won't let Confidant stick around unless they can win through it, where Tombstalker doesn't change anything either. If your confidant is killed, Your Tombstalker comes down a turn later, and you don't lose to that removal spell. Do you have Confidant and no Top? Well, you're probably winning, so taking 8 shouldn't be too much of a big deal. And even then, you can always 'sacrifice' the Confidant in an attack, or to Smallpox, or whatever. Anyways, Mystic Enforcer is worse than Tombstalker because it costs more, and that's the only reason. Everything Mystic Enforcer loses to, Tombstalker does too, but they don't have the time to get the spell down because you've been bombarding him with Removal and hand Disruption when you play Stalker two turns earlier (if not more, based on Enforcer's Colors)

Seriously, if you're going to play Enforcer, play blue to protect it. He costs 4 mana and doesn't win immediately, why do you play him over Stalker, which costs 2? This deck does not want to get to the late game at any means, so that's a terrible excuse too.

arsenalpow

02-22-2008, 07:18 AM

Smallpox is too symetrical for this deck. It wants to get ahead. There are too many situations in which smallpox isn't functional.

I would never play 4 Tombstalker just because I don't want to die off confidant because of him. Imagine you are on your way to a blowout win. You dropped a turn 1 confidant off a mox and a fetch. turn 2 you flip up a stalker and you are already at 11. you crack another fetch putting you to 10 and drop a hymn and thoughtseize on your opponent. Woops now you are at 8. Turn 3 you flip up another Tombstalker....GG you lose

Not my idea of good. Not to mention he is a finisher, why run 4 of your finisher when it will usually be a dead card from turns 1-4. I'd rather draw into my finisher than hold dead cards.

Shtriga

02-22-2008, 07:35 AM

Dilettante

02-22-2008, 08:18 AM

3 tombstalkers seems the right number to me and what I have always ran in my black decks. even with 3 sometimes you're stuck with too many in hand.

I'd still test the enforcers though. if the cost is too problematic, then I'd go back to stalkers. but in paper I like the enforcers a lot. and don't pretend like 8 damage out of your own bob isn't a lot, when there's fetching and thoughtseizes involved. SDT goes a long way in smoothing bob/stalker interaction though

In general, this is how one can think about how much of each card to include:
1: Fetchable or really expensive for the deck.
2: Expensive or situational for the deck, but want to eventually possibly draw into it, but not reliant upon it... helps a lot of it hits play.
3: Want to draw into it, but not necessarily have it in every hand.
4: Want to have it in your hand every single game.
5+: You're playing Relentless Rats. Don't.

I'd go with 3 for Tombstalkers. Having one in your opening hand is not quite win and awesome; it's quite a dead card for a while. If you clog your hand with them, you won't be able to cast. They aren't always cast for 2, though...

arsenalpow

02-22-2008, 08:43 AM

I like top alot, i just don't know what to cut to add in 4 tops. It would reduce the threat density of the deck...

chokin

02-22-2008, 12:59 PM

Would 4 tops really be the way to go? I mean, after we get the first down, we usually do not want to see another. Unless it gets nailed by a Grip. Basically, all I wanna know is if 4 is the best number. I would think 2 or 3, but even then, Tombstalker is the only thing to fear.

So that's another hit against Stalker...if you do not want to take damage from Bob flipping a Stalker, is Top a must? The main arguement of Enforcer < Stalker seems to be that Enforcer costs 2 offcolors, and is always 4 while Stalker can ideally cost 2. But the arguement that Enforcer > Stalker is that Stalker can shrink Goyf and truly costs BB+6 cards in the yard. But if you fear hitting a Stalker, you might want to run top. That's an extra 2-4 cards you need in the deck to guarantee that you won't be losing 8 life.

But I think that's why people only run 2 fat finishers. Enforcer is always easier on the life, just not the cost. Stalker is much easier to cast, may shrink goyf, but is about as nasty.

So now the question is: Which finisher and how many? And what about Top?

arsenalpow

02-22-2008, 01:43 PM

Top is a great card, but its the type of card you want to see in your opening hand so it can fix the rest of your draws for the rest of the game.

Hummingbird TG

02-23-2008, 04:30 AM

Well, I'd not need Top in my opener, for I have so many better things that are absolutely crucial to do in my first few turns. I'd rather pick up a top in the 3-4th turn, or somewhere in the mid game, where I have nothing left to cast.

electrolyze

02-25-2008, 12:18 PM

after some testing i made a new gbw build:

4xgoyf
4xconfidant
3xdoran
3xlynx(maybe not the best creature but solves some problems and survives with a deed)

4xswords to plowshares

4xdeed

4xvindicate
4xthougthseize
4xhymn to tourach

4xlotus petal(i really, really like this card i the deck, not only goyf becomes bigger but i solves you mana many times and kan be really handfull in so many times)

1xvolrath's stronghold(like his one too, against control or aggro/control it can be very iriitating for them)
5xswamp
1xforest
1xplains
4xheath
4xmire
3xscrubland
3xbayou

sb:

4xgaddock teeg
4xextirpate
4xtormod's crypt
3xeplosives/krosan grip/jitte/ whatever i want

i really like this list because it can be very quick, enough removal and big beaters.

do people have tips for me for a better side cause that's not my strongest thing:laugh:

f|i[p]

02-25-2008, 06:31 PM

I have no idea why you would run Deed.. It kills most of your creatures....kills confi, kills goyf, kills doran, kills lynx unless you regen it...and you dont even have tombstalker,at the least...

Doran was always hard to cast.... So I dont think he'd fit in.

I still think the land D. route with sinkholes and wastelands are the way to go specially, thresh and other decks in the decks to beat are very vulnerable to Land destruction...

electrolyze

02-26-2008, 01:10 AM

deed is almost the best card in the deck, i play the deck very much and i almost never blow up my creatures. and if i have many vreatures to blow up, i'm winning so i dont have to blow it up. if i'm still losing, i see no reason why i would not blow it up. i run 1 volrath's stonghold now if i need the creatures back and it works really fine.

doran is really not hard to cast, when i cast it. most of the time its mid-game so i have al the mana i need.

i played a tourney last sunday with the ld build and it really screwed me up. most of the tim ei was mana screwd cause of wasteland and the ld did really nothing to the situation. most of the decks dont bother if their landd gets kil;ed. thresh has cantrips to search for, loam plays enough lands and loam them back, goblins play vials and ld themself, ichorid can do without land still very good, and landstill wins if they get a crucible wich happens me many times. thats the reason why i cutted the ld route, it never worked for me on tourneys.

edit. i really want to run 3 stalker instead of the spectral lynx slot bur they hurt so super badly with confidant and i had really very bad expierience with this. i played bw deadguy with 2 stalkers and revealed them for almost 8 times on a tourney. thats the reason i'm afraid to run them.

Hummingbird TG

02-26-2008, 10:48 AM

Sensei's Divining Top about your Tombstalker problem. Need I say more? Oh, and where's Wasteland? That's what I hate about 3c, you lose Wasteland. (Unless, of course, you run Mox Diamond instead of fragile non-basics, but in that case you cant run deed. See?)

electrolyze

02-26-2008, 11:17 AM

i cutted wasteland cause i didnt like it, in the bw build its a must but i was so insane many tourneys mana screwd because of wasteland in opening hand or as topdecks when i needed bb that i really wanted a 3c build without it. yes i know the power of this card but i really never had luck with it.

i'm going to try to put top in the list but i want to keep the petals because of the quickness and mana solve of this card.

i'm going to try to fit 2/3 top's in the list(what's the best number?)

arsenalpow

02-26-2008, 02:00 PM

the threshold decks can run 3 tops because they run 10+ filter effects to go with it. If you plan on using the top you should run 4 or you might never see it.

Hummingbird TG

02-27-2008, 03:53 AM

GUnit

02-29-2008, 11:07 AM

So be it. That's better than seeing double Top. It's also because Top is not necessary, not critical, to have in your opening hand. Why? Cause you have to disrupt the opponent severly in your opening hand. There's hardly time or mana to Top until turn 3/4.

You do realize that you can simply draw off spare tops and fetch them away, don't you? I'm sure there are plenty of good reasons to cut a top from the deck, but redundancy really isn't an issue if you play a decent amount of shuffle effects.

Hummingbird TG

02-29-2008, 11:32 AM

Yea, 8 shuffle effects. Thats not really alot, though. The primary reason for not playing 4 tops, though, is the fact that if I see two in my opening hand, to shuffle one away I would need to spend mana to cast it, that mana which I can be using for disrupting my opponent instead, and a card in hand which could have been a disruption piece necessary.

Zappa

03-13-2008, 05:24 AM

Hello everyone, I just joined here so thought I'd say hi. Its pretty interesting on how much you can modify this deck, I see quite a bit of these types emerging on other forums I checked out.
I was kinda hoping I can get some tips, opinions and perhaps some advises about my B/W deck. I wanted to put it on a different post, but since it can/might be able to contribute I thought I'd post it here instead of making a new one.

At the moment this is what I have for my deck:

Lands (23)
4X Bloodstained Mire
7X Swamp
4X Scrubland
4X Godless Shrine
1X Tainted Field
1X Volrath's Stronghold
2X Tomb of Urami

Creatures (16)
4X Hypnotic Specter
4X Dark Confidant
4X Nantuko Shade
4X Mother of Runes

Non-Creature Spells (19)
4X Dark Ritual
4X Swords to Plowshares
4X Hymn to Tourach
4X Duress
3X Vindicate

Artifact (2)
2X Umezawa's Jitte

Side board (15)
4X Withered Wretch
4X True Believer
3X Extirpate
4X Warmth

Wasteland was taken out. While the card may add some more disruption and can slow down the opponent a great deal. Majority of the time, however, I dont have any targets for it. Non-basic lands I usually see aside from dual are, other wastelands, Ghost quarter, fetches and Flagstones.
The fact that BB is very important on turn two, its colorless mana production just slows me down actually. So I took out the Wasteland.

Volrath's Stronghold Added as a 1 off, can be useful when opponent uses Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives, Wrath of God/Damnation, and etc. Bringing back the threats, however, even though it can be pretty useful. The deck operates of alot of colored mana sources, and getting 1 on the opening hand can be problematic if you only have 1 other colored mana producing land. That means if I dont run into another colored producing land that can be the deciding factor of the match. 1 of this land seems good enough.

Tomb of Urami There are some games that I lost where I got the opponnent into top decking. But since my clock was too slow, they were able to recover in time. I was thinking that maybe the tomb can act as my alternate win condition. Getting them into top decking and making urami into a big creature pretty much translates into... find the answer now or lose.

Mother of Runes A pretty good drop for a mere 1 mana. Protects my threats from spot removal. Especially since specter, confidant, and most especially the shade... always has a target symbol on their head.

Umezawa's Jitte I think I run enough creatures to warrant the use of the card. Having more though just doesn't seem right. The life gain is not bad either after taking some life loss from confidant.

=== Some things I'm hoping I can get some thoughts on ===

1) For awhile now I've been wondering wether I should run Cursed Scroll instead of the Jitte. They can both generate card advantage, but scroll can hit the opponent. Jitte also requires a creature, and that creature also needs to be able to connect a hit. While Cursed scroll seems more reliable. However spending 3 mana a turn to deal a measly 2 damage seems inefficient for the cost. But then again Jitte can just be plain evil a well, especially when combined with Mother of the Runes.

2) Alot of people are telling me to replace either the Hymn to Tourach or Duress with Thoughtseize. I know its a good card, but even with jitte in the deck. Between the fetchlands and Confidant, I fear that I'm just going to lose way too much life. What's your opinion on Gerrard's Verdict to occupy the Duress slot?

3) For this deck, what is your opinion on Dark Ritual vs Chrome Mox?

Thanks for taking the time to read, and many thanks to those that responds.

Hummingbird TG

03-13-2008, 05:59 AM

Between the fetchlands and Confidant, you don't even lose much life. Better to pay two more life than get bashed int he head by a Tarmogoyf, though, no? But if you're really paranoid about life-loss, you can play Sensei's Divining Top.

(Although if you do do that, make sure to run at least 2 Tombstalker. By the way, where are the Tombstalkers? They're too good to drop.)

Zappa

03-20-2008, 04:34 AM

Hummingbird TG:

I did not run Tombstalker, since I am running confidant. Drawing tombstalker could very well spell game for me should I draw him via confidant. Sensei's divining top is a good card and works well with confidant but I dont want to run it just for the sake of trying to fit in tombstalker. Should the opponent be in top deck mode that's why I have nantuko shade. The tomb of urami is just there as an alternate win condition. Should there be no shades present.

I've actually started using Thoughtseize now, at a cost of losing hymn to tourach though. I am experimenting on it at the moment, wether losing the 2 for 1s for the sake of getting the critical cards. Granted Hymn can also hit that critical card plus others, however, we're talking about consistency here.
At the moment this is what I am running...

Lands (23)
4X Bloodstained Mire
7X Swamp
4X Scrubland
4X Godless Shrine
1X Tainted Field
1X Volrath's Stronghold
2X Tomb of Urami

Creatures (16)
4X Hypnotic Specter
4X Dark Confidant
4X Nantuko Shade
4X Mother of Runes

Non-Creature Spells (19)
4X Dark Ritual
4X Thoughtseize
4X Duress
4X Swords to Plowshares
3X Vindicate

Artifact (2)
2X Umezawa's Jitte

Side board (15)
4X Withered Wretch
4X True Believer
3X Extirpate
4X Warmth

I am running thoughtseize and duress together, just experimenting for now. Although I am curious about something, is 16 creatures on the deck sufficient enough to run Cabal Therapy instead of the duress?

Shtriga

03-20-2008, 08:23 AM

thoughtseize + hymn to tourach seems like the best discard package, rather than duress (as in, seize replaces duress). I was never a huge fan of therapy. I mean, it's pretty good, but I feel more comfortable with any of the above as I don't like to blindly cast a therapy

Blacktail

03-20-2008, 08:49 AM

Zappa, I really like that deck, but I have 2 recommendations for you.

1) I think you should add some deltas and wastes to the deck, that way you only have to run 3/4 scrublands and have a more stable manabase. However, what you have should definitely work, and I can understand if you don't want to pick up deltas, wastes and sinkholes (pricey as hell) The manabase definitely seems to work right now though. I know. The land D makes your discard so much more powerful.

I'm surprised that you don't have many targets for wasteland. The vast majority of decks in legacy run mostly nonbasics. The power that wasteland provides is often worth a little bit of mulliganing because you don't get 2 black sources in your hand

Land D + Hymn makes people cry, it's great synergy.

2) I really like running 8 pinpoint discard, but you need the CA that hymn provides. Especially in a deck like deadguy. You win by establishing control over your opponent, so you need to focus on whiping their lands and hands. It makes your threats go the distance unhindered much more often.

Anyway, I know this has been discussed to death, and I'm sure you've heard it before, but I recommend you test it out.

Hummingbird TG

03-20-2008, 11:16 PM

I agree about the Hymn. Run it or suffer. :laugh: But in all seriousness, Hymn, as mentioned earlier, is great CA. Also, Hymn seems nice against Control, like Landstill and the like.

Also, 4 Shades? Multiples aren't that good. Play at least one Tombstalker. 8 dmg is not GG. If you have both Confidant and Stalker, you should be in pretty good shape already, as it means 1) they don't have removal or 2) Confidant has drawn you enough gas and they aren't doing anything much, then you thrash them with Stalker eitherway, no?

Oh, and where are the E. Plagues?

thefreakaccident

03-21-2008, 04:10 AM

The funny thing about it all when it comes to this deck in particular is the original is usually the most thought out.

Here it is folks:

The top two decks in the format currently are: threshold/landstill

What do both of these decks hate to see? land disruption, this is why dragon stompy is so amazing right now.

If I was ever to play this deck again, I would play the following:

BGW

lands//22
4 wasteland
3 scrubland
3 bayou
1 forest
1 plains
2 windswept heath
4 bloodstained mire
4 swamp

creatures//15
4 tarmogoyf
4 dark confidant
4 hypnotic specter
3 nantuko shade

spells//23
4 dark ritual
4 sinkhole
4 vindicate
3 duress
4 thoughtseize
4 swords to plowshares

sideboard//
4 jotan grunt/extirpate (I would run grunt because of my meta, extirpate is better)
3 krosan grip/serenity (grip if its' thresh/landstill, serenity if stax/challice agro)
4 engineered plague (ETW, ichorid, goblins, random decks)
4 engineered explosives (thresh/fish/etw)

The sideboard is very generic, but strong... the MD is plain and simple, and is strong because of that.... you can get away with running only 22 lands, as you have he extra boost from ritual, and you have a very low curve, which pays off.

The green splash for goyf seemed bad to me at first, but it seems to be worth the splash, all the while providing decent sideboard options versatility with explosives, and it doesn't harm the manbase all that bad, as you can always fetch basics if you are expecting manabase hate.

The manabase may also seem a little odd, but it is efficient, and keeps you from getting color screwed off of magus/moon, which is gaining popularity, and you cannot afford not having access to all of your colors (well, WB for Vcate).

I kinda wish I didn't trade off my sinkholes, I should probably but some new ones soon.

idraleo

03-21-2008, 06:16 AM

You don't play Hymn to Tourach, it is motivated or you simply forgot it?
On my own, i' ve played deadguy in a 50 people tuornament placing out of top8 by rating, and loosing 2 games in swiss each on 2-1 and each by a topdeck of Back to Basic, that completely shut me down and i wasn't able to draw fetchalnds and\or basics. Here is the decklist:

// Lands
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [A] Bayou
3 [B] Scrubland
3 [TE] Wasteland
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains
2 [CS] Snow-Covered Swamp

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [TO] Nantuko Shade
2 [10E] Hypnotic Specter
2 [LRW] Shriekmaw

// Spells
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AP] Vindicate
4 [B] Sinkhole
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (4)
4 [MM] Dark Ritual

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [LRW] Shriekmaw
SB: 3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 3 [OD] Aegis of Honor
SB: 1 [TE] Warmth
SB: 2 [TE] Perish
SB: 1 [RAV] Darkblast
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void

thefreakaccident

03-21-2008, 02:59 PM

The problems I see with that previous list:

1. it has 3 basic lands: If you noticed, mine runs 6, which I think is the minimum, as you already always want access to BBGW, which is impossible off of only 3 lands.

2. If you are going to run hypnotic specter, run him as a four of... I know he starts to loose spunk as the game goes on, but he is awesome in the early turns (1,2,3, sometimes 4)... the reason he is a four of is because he can wreck oponents in the early game... it is the same premise as to why threshold runs 4 daze and not 2-3.

3. DON'T RUN HYMM, there is no reason to, you have access to better discard spells. Both of the better choices I chose to run are almost obvious, they are 1 mana less (ideal for a deck like this), they actually hit a target (unlike hymm, in which case you hope to hit what you want).

4. Shriekmaw is bad, there, I said it! Now, he isn't bad in all decks, he can be pretty good in some decks, however, when you flip him over to a DC and take 5 when your opponent has a black creature/artifact creature, or just has manlands or some nonsense, you will hate yourself, as you just lost the damage race to yourself.

EDIT:

5. Always run the full playset of wastelands, Jesus man!

I also think your sideboard needs some tuning, but that could be just me.

Shtriga

03-21-2008, 06:47 PM

hymn is great for the bit of card advantage it gives, and is good at putting the opponent in topdeck sometimes. but I suppose you're right, when running confidant and specter (and 3 colors, since hitting BB turn 2 is a tad harder), thoughtseize + duress seems like it could be a better option and worth exploring

still, hymn isn't a bad option either.

oh and the SB does look a bit random, enginered plague is very good and you probably want 4 of them. I was looking for a witty way to retort at aegis of honor, but it actually looks like tech against burn decks, as you don't have many outs other than racing and the bobs, seizes and fetches makes it a lot easier for them (as if that was possible? autopilotburn has to be the easiest deck to play ever)

thefreakaccident

03-21-2008, 07:54 PM

burn does run a very low land count though, occasionally with a quick start and some LD you can leave them boardless for you to kill them with any7 combination of your creatures... if it increases as a concern (don't know why it would), you can run COP: red or something to that extenet.

rsaunder

03-23-2008, 02:04 PM

fourleafedmonkey

03-28-2008, 04:48 PM

I think it is necessary to move away from the land destruction aspects of this deck because of the fact that goyf costs 2. Which is very easy to recover to. So I decided to switch it to more of a creature destruction type of deck.

4 Dark Confidant
4 Hypnotic Spectre
4 Spectral Lynx
2 Nantuko Shade

4 Duress/ Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Ritual
4 Vindicate
3 Swords To Plowshars
3 Smother

3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Wasteland
5 Swamp
3 Plains
4 Scrubland
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Tomb Of Urami

The creatures are pretty obvious with advantage, progreen, and a big beater in the form of Nantuko Shade.
For the spells, I prefer duress over thoughtseize due to the large amount of creature distruction.
Smother is able to hit many of the main creatures in this format.

Side Deck
3 Disenchant
3 Engineered Plague
4 True Believer
4 Planar Void
1 Random Slot

electrolyze

03-28-2008, 06:02 PM

if you run top, why dont you run tombstalker then?

and do you prefer lynx over grunt? i prefer grunt more but maybe its just me.

i would cut 4 lynx and 1 hippie for 3 grunt and 2 stalkers. the rest looks quite god to me(a 3th shade would be good:laugh: ) and i think you should cut one smother to 4 stp cause its better spot removal than smother i think.

here's mine bw list if i was still running it above bgw:

2xtombstalker
3xgrunt
4xconfidant
3xshade

4xsinkhole
4xvindicate
4xthougthseize
4xhymn

4xswords to plowshares

2xengineered explosives
3xsensei's divining top

4xwasteland
4xscrubland
4xbloodstained mire
1xtomb of urami
1xstronghold
1xgodless shrine
7xswamp

now i have one main slot over, somebody has a tip wat the best option for this is? i was thinking about maybe a 3th stalker, 3th eplosive, a smother as '5th' spot removal in it or an random extra creature.

i wanted to test mirror entity in the deck cause its sort of a shade for all your creatures and its cool against meathooks:p

my bgw list which i'm running at the moment looks like this:

3xdoran
4xgoyf
3xgrunt(maybe stalker, dont know yet)
4xconfidant

4xstp

4xvindicate
4xthougthseize
4xhymn

3xdeed

2xexplosives
3xtop

3xbayou
3xsrubland
4xheath
4xmire
1xstronghold
1xforest
1xplains
5xswamp

my sideboards of both build its always different so thats why i havent got one.

i think in the bgw version i will always put gaddok teeg in it.

Shtriga

03-28-2008, 06:11 PM

fourleafedmonkey

04-01-2008, 11:13 PM

This may sound a little off the wall, but what would someone think about Necravolver or Degavolver?

Necravolver could be a 3/3 life link creature, while degavolver could be a 3/3 regenerating creature.

Also, i think that is I added in Necravolver I would take out the sensei's because I can afford the life loss.

fetchesbasiclands

04-02-2008, 09:02 AM

Hummingbird TG

04-04-2008, 03:47 AM

I'm wondering what everyone thinks of Beseech the Queen. Ignoring the fact that it's CMC 6, I'm wondering if the effect of Tutoring a Card with CMC less than the number of lands you have in play is worth BBB......

For reference,

http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/fcpics/latest/dl31_l0isup.jpg

Shtriga

04-04-2008, 05:05 AM

almost diabolic tutor. except it can cost BBB, the same, or a lot more. I say, meh

b4r0n

04-04-2008, 10:59 AM

Grim Tutor seems like it'll always be better. And I don't think that this deck really needs a tutor anyways, since it's pretty redundant already (threats, removal, discard).

Tacosnape

04-04-2008, 11:14 AM

Why is nobody even talking about Fulminator Mage in this deck? He might be undersized, but Wasteland on a stick seems pretty hot for this deck, especially when you can throw him at a moment's notice if he's about to die.

Hummingbird TG

04-04-2008, 01:13 PM

Well, he dies to Goyf, Mongoose, Goyf, random Goblins, Goyf, Mishra's Factory, Goyf, and a million other creatures in the format, thus essentially a Wasteland for 1BB. Well, if we don't even play Sinkhole I doubt Fulminator Mage would see play...

Hummingbird TG

04-20-2008, 02:10 PM

Just to Necro this thread, how would Bitterblossom do here? It provides free Goyf chumpers, free Chump-Blockers, and 1/1 Flying Critters at the very least, if nothing else. And, if we play both, Cabal Therapy becomes hot. And, it seems to be all the rage in Standard at the moment...Too slow? Useless? Clunky? Or worth Testing?

ImaBorgerman

04-20-2008, 11:44 PM

Tried it but it doesn't impress me much... :frown:
the 2cc hinders with most of our spells too... which I believe most of us will priortize casting disruption effects over this in the first 3 turns at least...

But bitterblossom + contamination seems interesting though...

Clark Kant

04-20-2008, 11:52 PM

What are your thoughts on this build? It's been fantastic for me...

1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Ritual

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
3 Vindicate
3 Snuff Out
3 Swords to Plowshares

3 Nantuko Shade
4 Tombstalker
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Hypnotic Spectar

Between the games you win by not letting your opponent keep a single land on the table and the ones you win by seperating them from every single relevent threat, the deck feels absolutely broken in half to me every time I play it.

electrolyze

04-21-2008, 01:10 AM

yes, but this isnt deadguy ale you posted clark. deadguy ale runs confidant and youre list not:laugh:

youre list is probably an white version of eva green wich is a suicide variant.

fourleafedmonkey

04-21-2008, 02:51 AM

So I modified my list a little due to some of your comments and it performed nicely. 3-0-2.

But I did discover a few things.

Sinkhole cannot be played right now.

After playing this deck and pox for a while after the inclusion of tarm in pretty much every deck, it doesn't really do much, because the main kill condition can still be played. It is possible to keep a player of 3 lands for the longest time, but two is a very difficult feat. Therefore, I think wasteland is okay due to its ability to cause a great tempo swing. But I think that that spot is better reserved for some other form of disruption.

As for Bitter Blossom, I love it. Though I think it is a much better inclusion in a sui build, if it can be fit in the deck, it should. It is great damage and great defense. And can lead to the inclusion of negator and contamination.

Clark Kant

04-21-2008, 03:10 AM

electrolyze, I agree. But I have yet to see a typical deadguy build top 8 at any major tourney in many many months.

I thought the deck could use a reboot with cards that are more powerful and faster than Cursed Scroll/Confidant/Lynx.

Hummingbird TG

04-21-2008, 12:56 PM

I thought the deck could use a reboot with cards that are more powerful and faster than Cursed Scroll/Confidant/Lynx

You say faster? But you play a 4-off called Sinkhole, and the last time I checked it cost 2 more mana than what it was supposed to destroy...And Hypnotic Specter, which, at best, forces an opponent to discard a card on turn 2. And not even a card of your choice, so while you may land a nice hit, you may get crap, too...AND it's only fast enough for Control. Consider Smallpox, perhaps, in Sinkhole's slot, btw?

BTW, how's 4 Tombstalker doing? Won't the second one be a dead card or something?

Deviruchi

04-21-2008, 03:04 PM

Beseech the Queen: We don't use Grim/Rhystic/Infernal Tutor so why now? Why this one?

Bitterblossom: Alone this card doesn't suit here imo. Maybe in some crazy version of suicide deck (without Dark Confidant) with Braids/Contamination/Jitte.

About Sinkhole and lacking of presence in top8: I've searched deckcheck.net in order to find black decks in top8 ( 1st march - today ). 1x Bw Pox, 1x Mono Black Pox, 1x Suicide Black, 2x Bgw Deadguy. They all have 4x Sinkhole inside. Results prove they are useful.

Decklist from Saturday 4th / 32 by Sylvain Durand (from deckcheck.net):

1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
3 Polluted Delta
3 Scrubland
3 Swamp
4 Wasteland

2 Tombstalker
3 Nantuko Shade
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf

3 Pernicious Deed
3 Smother
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Thoughtseize
4 Vindicate

Sideboard:
4 Extirpate
4 Planar Void
4 Engineered Plague
3 Krosan Grip

Nice list but I still prefer Hypnotic in Tarmogoyfs place (lack of aggro in my metagame). I would definitely include 1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth to smooth the manabase. 0x SDT, 2x Tombstalker. I'm curious how ofter he revealed Tombstalker using Dark Confidant... Discuss !

Hummingbird TG

04-21-2008, 03:30 PM

If Confidant lives long enough to flip multiple cards, either you're already winning or you're in bad shape enough that Confidant's existance doesn't matter to your opponent. Therefore, an extra 8 damage to your head won't do much to tip the situation eitherway(unless against burn, but, who plays that, right?). I've flipped Tombstalker with Bob before, and still won pretty easily, on the back of the insanity of Tombstalker beatz.

Question, though. Is Pernicious Deed really that effective here? I question the need for a sweeper when we play the best creatures in the format, and hardly want to sweep them off the board (though it is possible that we are dead on the board but topdeck deed, confessedly, but how often does this turn up for you? (not rhetoric, but I'm geniunely curious) ).

Also, no accel? In a 3-color build I don't think it really makes much sense to me to not play Mox Diamond(of course, theres that Pernicious Deed thing again, but the mana here looks pretty wonky...) Also, is the deck fast enough without accel?

Which brings me to the next issue, that of mana. The manabase doesn't look very stable to me, personally. How often are you able to produce all three colors? And how often when still safe from Wasteland? Also, are the basic non-Swamps necessary, with only 2 ways to fetch them? (Also noting that those things don't produce B, and he runs Shade) Mox Diamond, being immune to Waste, seems to solve all of these problems(but of course, there's the Pernicious Deed thing, as always).

Humphrey

04-21-2008, 04:32 PM

My current Version is this one:

// Lands

4 [b] Swamp (1)
4 [b] Scrubland
2 [GP] Godless Shrine
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
3 [AP] Spectral Lynx
3 [b] Hypnotic Specter
3 [b] Black Knight
1 Nantuko Shade
1 Jotun Grunt
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 [AP] Vindicate
4 [b] Dark Ritual
4 [b] Swords to Plowshares
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (3)
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
1 [OD] Haunting Echoes

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [6E] Serenity

Shtriga

04-21-2008, 06:35 PM

1 shade and 1 grunt? you need more beaters in there. the knights are weak by today's standards, with tarmogoyf being everywhere and all

Hummingbird TG

04-22-2008, 06:36 AM

As has been previously noted, your creatures are weak. Tombstalkers are missing (for the last time, they work just fine with Confidant, so spare us the trouble of reiterating that, just run 2 or 3)...Haunting Echoes is an interesting idea, though. How has it been for you? And, Enlightened Tutor? To fetch what?

Humphrey

04-22-2008, 09:33 AM

Maybe Tombstalker is an idea, at least one.

Haunting Echoes is awesome, its unexpected and can win u the game.

Tutors to fetch the other SB cards or Jitte

Hummingbird TG

04-22-2008, 10:58 AM

1) Tutors are Card Disadvantage
2) They are slow, adding a W cost to whatever else you were paying for your spell anyway, and still taking a turn (for you to draw the spell). In other words, you can play your Plague turn 4 earliest, assuming no acceleration, for example. Not very efficient, is it?

That's why I question the inclusion of Enlightened Tutor. If it works for you, though, kindly tell us more, as i dont see, myself, how it could possibly work..

Clark Kant

04-24-2008, 12:28 AM

I was interested in trying out the Servant + Grindstone combo into a aggro black shell. Disruptive discard and tutoring goes very well with this combo.

Here is a quick untested thrown together build, it clearly needs to be optimized...

1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Ritual

4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Thoughtseize
3 Duress/Hymn to Tourach
3 Grindstone
2 Snuff Out
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Tainted Pact/Beseech the Queen

3 Nantuko Shade
4 Painter's Servant
4 Hypnotic Spectar
4 Tombstalker

The plan IS to beat the crap out of your opponent. The combo is the back up plan should that original plan fail.

Or another way to look at it, is this is a combo deck, but with an extremely strong aggro backup to distract your opponent or win through a Stifle/Gaea's Blessing.

The fact is, this deck can support both the combo and aggro routes very well. It has more than enough tools that it can consistently go with either goal in mind.

That kind of flexibility is hard to come by and in my opinion undervalued.

The one thing I will change with the list, is that I will add a singleton Lurebound Scarecrow (or Phyrexian Warbeast or Sarcomancy or Bitterblossom or Engineered Explosives or Jitte) to the list to grab with Enlightened Tutor in a pinch.

This is because Lurebound Scarecrow is a very strong and solid beater in this deck. And it can be tutored up with Enlightened Tutor should the combo route fail you thanks to an Extripate or something. Thus, the E. Tutors never become dead cards.

I didn't want to use the deadguy shell because the deadguy shell is slow, sucky and largely defunct imho.

As nice as Persecute is with a Servant on the board. It can be weak without a Servant since so many decks run upwards of three colors. And it's pretty mana intensive. I just felt Duress/Hymn was generally more disruptive.

It was important to me that the deck retained the traditional brokeness of Suicide Black. The combo is there as a backup plan, but one that you often draw into and resolve while your opponents are busy worrying about your other threats.

I'm not sure what to use as the two of tutor. Beseech is perfect but it costs a lot of mana.

Tainted Pact has the bonus of being cheaper and being an instant.

So at the end of your opponents turn, you can cast Tainted Pact, and try to tutor into either Enlightened Tutor or your second combo piece. Enlightened Tutor is an instant as well so you could cast it immediatley after too, and thus draw the card during the start of your turn. And if you have neither combo piece in hand, Pact at the end of your opponent's turn into a Thoughtseize, or more beats is a solid play as well.

Hummingbird TG

04-24-2008, 11:41 AM

When you devote so many slots to a clunky-looking combo, I doubt you can logically, or in any other way, call it a Sui Black Deck with a backup combo plan. More like a bad mixture of both. There are thirteen slots to your combo. That's alot of card slots. Also, Servant and Grindstone don't do anything alone, and other than tutoring for these cards, Enlightened Tutor does not seem to have much other use in the deck.

Tainted Pact seems interesting, though. How often do you whiff with it, with all the 4-offs in the deck?

I would also like to ask, why not Dark Confidant to draw into the combo? You could stick with 6 Tutors(though I'd prefer Pact, which can find more things than Tutor, assuming Pact actually finds stuff) or less, but cut 4 slots from between the Servants and Grindstone to make room for him (and the 4th Tombstalker, of course). Confidant has the bonus of also being useful normally while playing with a Deadguy/Sui-Black plan.

Clark Kant

04-24-2008, 06:30 PM

A long long time ago (even before the formats split), I actually ran Tainted Pact in a Suicide Black build with a lot of less than full playsets of utility cards like Reanimate. Pact is actually pretty good at getting you a threat when you need it.

I was worried about losing 8-9 life by revealing a Tombstalker off a Confidant and losing the game.

And between Tombstalker and Confidant, I MUCH prefer Tombstalker.

But the deck IS called Suicide Black.

So I guess if you want, you could go...
-1 Tombstalker
-1 Hypnotic Specter
-1 Tainted Pact/Painter's Servant
-1 Tainted Pact/Grindstone
+4 Dark Confidant

and pray that you don't wipe out half your life.

I am curious about one thing though. How often do you guys actually swing with Confidant? Isn't the damage you occasionally do with it more than made up with for the extra vulnerability it has as a creature, and the extra damage you deal to yourself. If that is the case, in a build of the deck running Tombstalker, could Phyrexian Arena be used instead of confidant? You never lose 8 life to Tombstalker or even 3 life to stuff like Specter and Negator.

So with the list I posted above, might this be more optimal?
-2 Tainted Pact
-1 Painter's Servant
+3 Phyrexian Arena

Hummingbird TG

04-25-2008, 11:13 AM

Arena is slow. It costs 3. And it has no chance of beating when you need it to, such as against Control. I've had Goyfs and Stalkers Extirpated and won through Bob beats once, for example, too. And Arena will always cost you one life (while I run 27 0cc cards AND 3 Tops). Besides, you can't kill your own Arena in a pinch.

Oh, and did I mention it cost 3?

kabal

04-27-2008, 08:47 PM

I've been testing this build out with some positive results. So far my gauntlet is somewhat limited, basically includes Ugw CB Threshold, Affinity, Belcher and White Goblins.

Any Suggestions/Thoughts?

// Lands
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Swamp
4 Bayou
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
4 Scrubland
4 Windswept Heath
1 Volrath's Stronghold

// Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Doran, the Siege Tower

// Enchantments
2 Pernicious Deed

// Spells
2 Extirpate
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
3 Vindicate

// Artifacts
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Sensei's Divining Top

electrolyze

04-28-2008, 02:59 AM

kabal, your list looks pretty solid,

my list is almost the same, the only thing u have diferent with my list is:

-1 vindicate
-1 deed

+2 extirpate

how have they been working out for you in the maindeck?

Clark Kant

04-28-2008, 04:29 PM

Kabal, one change I would test in the list is...

-3 Jotun Grunt
-4 Dark Confidant
-2 Extripate
-2 Deed

for

+4 Tombstalker
+4 Hypnotic Specter or +3 Nantuko Shade
+4 Snuff Out

Deed doesn't seem all that great here.

You are trying to do too much imo. The aggro route is the superior option to the board control route with Deed.

whienot

04-28-2008, 06:11 PM

@Clark

I don't think turning the deck into a lesser Eva-Green is the way to go. Confidant + Top will win more games than Specter + Stalker.

@ Kabal

The deck is solid. Stronghold is such a great card in this deck. I almost want to go to 2-3, but that leads to mana issues.

Have you considered Living Wish? It lets you tutor for a boarded Stronghold/Eternal Witness/Tombstalker/hate creature of choice, which seems pretty hott. It's pretty mana intensive though, possibly just a cute, uneeded trick.

Thoughts?

kabal

04-29-2008, 02:03 PM

@Clark

I don't think turning the deck into a lesser Eva-Green is the way to go. Confidant + Top will win more games than Specter + Stalker.

I totally agree with you here.

@ Kabal

The deck is solid. Stronghold is such a great card in this deck. I almost want to go to 2-3, but that leads to mana issues.

Have you considered Living Wish? It lets you tutor for a boarded Stronghold/Eternal Witness/Tombstalker/hate creature of choice, which seems pretty hott. It's pretty mana intensive though, possibly just a cute, uneeded trick.

Thoughts?

There are many times that I wish I was running > 1 Stronghold since it is so powerful. The whole mana issue as you pointed out and the fact that it is Legendary really prohibit you.

As for Living wish, that seems like some interesting tech. I like the idea of grabbing a Stronghold or Tombstalker. A Tombstalker would be some sweet sauce, since I can't run those MB. I'll have to give it a try.

Hummingbird TG

04-30-2008, 10:52 AM

Nobody says you can't. Playing both Bob and Stalker would win you more games than lose them. Flipping a Tombstalker doesn't always kill you, and doesn't even always happen. But imagine when you need a 5/5 Flyer as an out, but play none in your deck and lose an entire game from early on, because of that.

fourleafedmonkey

05-24-2008, 05:23 AM

What does anyone think about meekstone?

It would mean cutting Tombstalker, but it stops almost all relevant threats [tarmagoyf] these days while still letting your shade, hippy and bob do what they want.

Another suggestion would be runed halo, though the white commitment could be a little difficult.

Hummingbird TG

05-25-2008, 01:26 AM

What does Runed Halo do anyway? Sure, you can name Tendrils. Then TES goes for EtW, and Fetchland Tendrils, Brain Freeze. Sure thing. Or, you could name Tarmogoyf. Which would rely on your opponent to actually have to *draw* the Tarmogoyf, else Runed Halo would be dead. Proactive answers that are too specific = fail, and as a reactive answer, it's (most of the time) worse than StP. And, as you mentioned, the WW manacost. Which wrecks your manabase so much it's not funny.

Meekstone sounds interesting, though. What slot'd you put it in? Maindeck? It seems slightly narrow, though, and doesn't stop Landstill or Goblins in any way whatsoever.

In other news, if I play 4 Pithing Needle (SB), would it be advisable to play any number of Polltued Delta in addition to my 4 Bloodstained Mires (I'm definitely playing the Mires, need some fetches at least)? If so, how many?

Illissius

05-25-2008, 07:19 AM

What does Runed Halo do anyway? Sure, you can name Tendrils. Then TES goes for EtW, and Fetchland Tendrils, Brain Freeze. Sure thing.

You can name Orim's Chant. Of course, in a deck without countermagic, that's not much use.

Or, you could name Tarmogoyf. Which would rely on your opponent to actually have to *draw* the Tarmogoyf, else Runed Halo would be dead.

Obviously you're going to name whatever creature your opponent actually has in play.

That being said, this is not the right deck for Runed Halo: when you remove a creature, you don't want it to stick around to block, either. Runed Halo is best for purely defensive decks like Landstill and Enchantress.

Hummingbird TG

05-25-2008, 08:53 AM

As a reactive answer, it's (most of the time) worse than StP.

As I mentioned in my above post, though, even if you name a creature the opponent already has in play, you're better off playing StP.

fourleafedmonkey

05-26-2008, 03:26 AM

As I mentioned in my above post, though, even if you name a creature the opponent already has in play, you're better off playing StP.

Yeah, but it does stop more than just one, unlike STP.

Hummingbird TG

06-12-2008, 12:27 PM

I'm reposting this, since no one's really answered my question yet, and just to bump this thread back to the first page, but...

In other news, if I play 4 Pithing Needle (SB), would it be advisable to play any number of Polltued Delta in addition to my 4 Bloodstained Mires (I'm definitely playing the Mires, need some fetches at least)? If so, how many?

Holo_rip

06-12-2008, 01:53 PM

i'd say run white fetch, and name polluted/flooded with pithing, but that's my opinion :p
i play a split of 3/3 bloodstained / windswepth myself, and it is really stable.

Henrik

06-15-2008, 04:30 PM

electrolyze

06-15-2008, 05:25 PM

you know, that list looks very good.

i dont have to say many things about it, only,

dont you miss the 4th stp and vindicate? because its still deadguy and slower than eva green. but the only space for one extra stp is -1 explosives +1 stp.

i think i'm gonna test that list too, i will put up results if i tested it more.

Henrik

06-16-2008, 02:33 AM

I do miss the last swords to plowshares sometimes, yes.

However, when i first made this eva green/deadguy hybrid, the explosives were still 3 snuff outs, so back then i didn't have any problems with first turn lackey, or whatever it could be that scares you the most. Snuff outs gave me to much pain though. That's when I saw other deadguy builds playing explosives and i loved them.

The 3 vindicates are just enough though. Together with explosives, we can destroy pretty much anything we want on the board, and 3 is a sufficient number to complement the land destruction, if the game should take that route.

Also, we have 3 tops and 8 fetch to search for the removal we need at a given time.

Hummingbird TG

06-16-2008, 10:48 AM

I've been testing a variant of deadguy that has taken a lot of inspiration from eva green. (The sideboard is identical to the list in the first post on eva green.) This gives a really good matchup against various blue control decks such as landstill, and also a further improvement on goblins and other small-critter agro.

CREATURES (14)
3 Tombstalker
3 Nantuko Shade
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant

SORCERIES (15)
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
3 Vindicate

INSTANTS (3)
3 Swords to Plowshares

ARTIFACTS (6)
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Sensei’s Divining Top

LANDS (22)
4 Wasteland
3 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Swamp
3 Scrubland

SIDEBOARD
4 Choke
4 Engineered Plague
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Umezawa’s Jitte

I would love to hear som thoughts and comments on this list.

I don't really like it. Where is the accel? And especially when playing 4 Sinkhole(very slow cards in themselves), I suspect while on the draw you're going to get outsped by your opponents alot. I've tried a similar build, though, and I must say I don't like the manabase of any 3 color Deadguy decks(and that was even back when I ran 4 Mox Diamond as a multi-color fixer). Also, only 22 Mana? Is that even enough?

Henrik

06-16-2008, 11:42 AM

"I don't really like it. Where is the accel? And especially when playing 4 Sinkhole(very slow cards in themselves), I suspect while on the draw you're going to get outsped by your opponents alot. I've tried a similar build, though, and I must say I don't like the manabase of any 3 color Deadguy decks(and that was even back when I ran 4 Mox Diamond as a multi-color fixer). Also, only 22 Mana? Is that even enough?"
/Hummingbird

Acceleration (ritual) was what i had to sacrifice to be able to fit all the goodies in there. It's ok really, explosives makes it possible to 2 for 1 your opponent later in the game.

As for the manabase, sure I get screwed sometimes, but for how long? with two lands, you should always have BB, and either white, green or both, and of course you let the rest of your hand decide what you fetch for. It is a valid point though, if you don't like the risk that three colors bring, don't run it. I like it.

Lastly, about the sinkholes without ritual. I ALWAYS board out sinkholes if I am on the draw second or third game, whether I play suicide, deadguy, ritual or no. And if I am on the play, I don't need the rituals for sinkhole.

Clark Kant

06-16-2008, 02:29 PM

From the Eva White thread, here is my Eva White list...

1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Ritual

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
3 Snuff Out
2 Swords to Plowshares

3 Nantuko Shade
4 Bitterblossom
4 Hypnotic Spectar
4 Tombstalker

Yes I know it's a lot more aggressive than most builds here, but you guys really ought to give it a spin.

Confidants don't interact well with Tombstalker, Snuff Out and Bitterblossom, and the latter cards are very worth running IMO.

I've recently replaced Ashenmoor Gouger/Negator with Bitterblossom and I find it a great substitute for Tarmogoyf.

You can pump out 3-4 or so 1/1 flyers to beat them over the head with.

And then every 1/1 you create after that can be used to chump block Tarmogoyf until they die.

The fact that Goyf can be chumped so easily by a 1/1 is awesome.

I'm now considering playing 2 Contamination MD. I think it deserves SB slots atleast maybe.

electrolyze

06-17-2008, 12:10 PM

okay, m testing the deck again and i've some cool new things in my list:

4xdark confidant
4xshade
2xstalker

2xbitterblossom

3xexplosives
3xtop

4xritual
4xstp

4xthoughtseize
4xhymn to tourach
4xvindicate

4xwasteland
4xscrubland
3xdelta
3xmire
7xswamp
1xgodless shrine

the list looks a bit different, i've added the 4th shade because i had one open slot and i wanted it to be a creature. 3th stalker could be problematic with confidant because i also putted blossom in it. 3th blossom was too much too because when you see it once its good enough. thats why i added the 4th shade, and i really like it becasue shade is really scary in this deck.

i added blossom as my new change and it really rocks, i tested it a few games now and the games i drawed blossom, i won because it. muc is not so scary anymore as it was(shackles:mad: ) and it rocks not only against control but it can be good vs aggro-control too(block there goyfs+gooses for a long time)

the rest is clear i think only, no sinkholes anymore becasue i couldtn find space anymore for it.

what do you people think of the list?

Goaswerfraiejen

06-17-2008, 12:16 PM

How are you handling the life loss from 4 Confidant, 6 fetches, 1 Vampland, 4 Thoughtseize, and 2 Bitterblossom? It seems like waaaaaaaaaaaay too much to be safe, for me. While your Bitterblossom tokens can block my Mongoose and Tarmogoyf, it looks like all I need to do is keep attacking into them and you'll kill yourself sooner rather than later.

electrolyze

06-17-2008, 12:39 PM

yes, i know there is many life loss but most of the time i only have one confidant, and bitterblossom only at the moment i need it(so i dont lose many lifes from it). fetch is not a problem too because, i dont fetch that much 2-3 times or something in a game. only seize is sometimes too much, but most of the time i only cast seize 2 times or something.

and i have top for confidant too.

about bitterblossom, its not that i only blocks goyf and gooses, thats where i have explosives, vindicate and stp's for too. only on times there is no other change(and i think -1 from blossom is better then -4 from goyf)

Valtrix

06-17-2008, 01:18 PM

So...It's slightly different, but I don't really think it's an improvement. Bitterblossom is good, but I agree that the life loss in this deck is somewhat excessive. Seriously, do you really need that godless shrine in there? I don't think so--Just run a 7th fetch instead if you're worried about color. It's one less life and can get you a basic if you really need it. I really don't like Confidant + stalker too, but hopefully it's not going to kill you...

Also, if you take out sinkhole you lose one of the strengths of the deck to win some games just by sheer mana denial. When you take out the strongest LD in the deck, then you might as well just not run wasteland either and find something else for those slots. Wasteland gives you mana for almost nothing in the deck.

I don't think 3 explosives are worth it main deck. Because you'll probably end up killing your things just as much. Shade, confidant, blossom are all 2cc cards, and it doesn't really help your tempo to destroy your things as well as your opponent's (tarmogoyf). Maybe sideboard, or take a few out, but it just seems unnecessary to me =/ I mean, you already have 4 Stp and 4 Vindicate.

electrolyze

06-17-2008, 01:35 PM

hmmm, okay, you people probably speak the truth about the deck.

i played this deck a long time but thats a really long time ago, i only wanted to improve it because it cant really compete with the meta anymore i think.

maybe i'll just stick on my old list again:

3/4xhippie
4xconfidant
3xshade
3xgrunt

4xstp
4xritual

4xseize
4xhymn
4xsinkhole
4xvindicate

0-2xtop/exlosives(if you want to cut one hippie, then i would play on of these 2 times. then youre at 21 land what can be still enough)

4xscrubland
4xmire
4xwasteland
1xtomb of urami
1xgodless shrine(because i really wanted to see the '5th scrubland' many times)
7/8xswamp
0-1xvolrath's stronghold

i think thats still a strong list but probably not good enough to beat thresh(maybe with explosives)

i wanted to play on a tourney again with this deck because its one of my first decks i made and it seemed fun to me to play on a tourney with it again.

tips for this list then?

Valtrix

06-17-2008, 02:06 PM

I don't know, I just put this list together quickly to sort of match your build:

// Lands
2 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
7 [7E] Swamp (3)
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [REW] Wasteland
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
4 [B] Scrubland

// Creatures
3 [TO] Nantuko Shade
3 [4E] Hypnotic Specter
2 [CS] Jotun Grunt
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
3 [U] Sinkhole
3 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (4)
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [AP] Vindicate
4 [IA] Dark Ritual

Hmm, I really wanted to fit Jitte in here, and I think it's okay with 1 stronghold and 12 other creatures. However, I had to cut something for that, and I decided for 1 sinkhole (because LD is not always useful, though this weakens the mana denial plan) and 1 Stp (Since Jitte can be removal, and the lifegain can actually be hard sometimes with low threat number. Also doesn't go with grunt the best). I still think Top is very important in here to smooth out draws with bob and make sure you're always getting the most relevant cards. I also think Urborg is useful so that you don't have to crack fetches for land, and can use wastelands/stronghold for relevant mana. I don't think we can afford the -1 life for Urami, and destroying all of our lands is not useful with nantuko shade at all. In fact, I don't really like him in here because of the 17 relevant lands, but he's still pretty good. Makes dark ritual not quite a "dead" draw late game.

EDIT: You know, Jitte might be a bad idea in here, though I just don't know because I haven't tested it. I've always liked to try to fit it in these type of decks though.

Henrik

06-17-2008, 06:52 PM

I won a tournament with my homemade deck (a couple of posts up) this very day. Among the meta was aggro loam, lot of ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, cephalid breakfast, rock and quite a lot of UWx control. It was really nothing big, a local tournament with <15 players, but the fact that I won gave me more stimulation to try to make this archetype work. My opinion is that you absolutely should play three colors. What's the point of playing control suicide if your oppnonent have the biggest creature anyways. Also, tombstalker with confidant is really not an issue. just be happy you draw a stalker, it will probably win for you anyways...

Shriekmaw

06-17-2008, 07:07 PM

I believe if players want to make Deadguy into a viable deck once more, then I would suggest adding in 4 Bitterblossom into the main deck. Do you know how awesome this card would be in a control deck like Deadguy Ale.

I think Bitterblossom is what it needs to put it over the top in my opinion. Please test it out at least and get back to me on the results and if you really like the addition to the deck.

kicks_422

06-17-2008, 08:29 PM

I agree with Bitterblossom being the nuts. There's a reason why it's so darn expensive. A start of Dark Ritual into Thoughtseize and Bitterblossom puts on so much pressure, especially against aggro-control.

electrolyze

06-18-2008, 03:03 AM

okay, now i'm a bit confused, the one says blossom dot belongs int this deck and the one say it belongs in it. so now i tested again some games with 4!blossoms in it and i must say, its awesome.

here's my list:

4xconfidant
3xstalker

4xblossom

3xtop

4xthoughtseize
4xhymn
4xsinkhole
4xvindicate

4xritual
4xstp

4xwasteland
4xscrubland
4xbloodstained mire
8xswamp
1xvolrath's stronhold(because i already run not that much creatures, if one dies i can get it back)
1xurborg, tomb of yawg(a bit random, but can solve some mana problems sometimes)

side:

depens on your meta.

i think i'm gonna play on a tourney soon witht this list.

the life loss is maybe sometimes a bit high, but a good deadguy player can play around it i think(i didnt had much trouble with it)

i putted in land descturciotn again, because thats still the strongest factor of the deck, having 4 sinks, 4 waste and 4 vindicates to nuke manabases. and when you are lucky to get a turn one blossom, the land desctuction is totally nuts.

the only thing i'm not sure about is 3 stalker, i really like it, but its dangerous with bob. maybe cut it and add a 4th top, because in this deck you really want to draw a top.

my other question, i really like to fit 2 explosives in the main but i dont see space for it, should i add it and cut something important(the first card i would cut is one stalker then)

Shtriga

06-18-2008, 05:14 PM

1 godless shrine is useful so that you can have white mana after an extirpate on scrubland

Lord_Cyrus

06-19-2008, 12:44 PM

Here's the deck I've been testing extensively on MWS and building to play:

4 Scrubland
6 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Volrath's Stronghold

4 Dark Confidant
3 Hypnotic Specter
3 Nantuko Shade
3 Jotun Grunt

4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize
3 Duress

4 Dark Ritual
4 Vindicate
4 Sinkhole
3 Smallpox

SB:
4x Extirpate
3x Dystopia
3x E.Plague
3x Swords to Plowshares
2x Pithing Needle

I have to ask... why did people ever stop playing with Smallpox? This card is so amazing. Perhaps if I sift through the thread carefully I will find an answer, but any insight would be most helpful. Smallpox has been completely unfair in almost every matchup, and brutalizes Thresh so throroughly I would play it for this reason alone. Smallpox allows me to crush otherwise powerful aggro openers, particularly those involving the oh-so-feared Mongeese. 3 does feel like the right number, given that I only play 22 land and this is not a dedicated Pox deck. Still, I would not consider cutting this card.

I would call the Thresh matchup with this deck about 55/45 across the board, with UGR being slightly easier than UGW or UGB.

Needless to say with 6 one mana discard this version also devastates almost any combo. Smallpox also helps here, handily shutting down turn 2 wins by putting them down a land and a card in hand.

The major problem I am having is with landstill. How do I beat this deck?? 4 and 5 color versions are slightly easier because my massive LD + extirpate can shut them out of colors, but I have not found UW or UWB to be favorable at all.

Landstill always seems to have more answers than I have threats, and enough viable win conditions that I can't extirpate/needle them all. Should I be playing more needles or something else entirely?

Honestly Landstill seems about 40/60 right now, if not worse. Maybe I am just playing this matchup wrong? Any advice is great.

Benie Bederios

06-19-2008, 04:20 PM

I have to ask... why did people ever stop playing with Smallpox? This card is so amazing.

I'm not sure. The reason I stopped playing it, becuase it was very hard for me to take real advantage out of it.

Your opponent has to have one more of the different cards( lands/creatures cards in hand) for it to be card advantage. On top of that you don't want to play the card when your only creature is Confidant or Specter. it's also the first card that looses it's power over the course of the game. Sinkhole and Vindicate and the targeted discard can be reasonable late game for shutting of colors or stopping that StP your opponent was holding for your creature. Hymn and Small Pox both loose their power quite fast, but I find Hymn better in the early game.

This was the reason for me to cut for StP( especially with the printing of Goyf), but there might be other reasons.

BB

humppa

06-25-2008, 04:34 AM

Simple question for the players with 4x Dark Ritual - aren't 3 black mana too much?

I've got problem, because very often I have only Hymn, or only Confidant, or only sinkhole, or ... so Dark Ritual = 1 mana burn.

I have a 3 color version (BGW), so i'm thinking about mox diamonds instead of rituals. What do you think?

electrolyze

06-25-2008, 05:18 AM

i never liked mox diamond in this deck because then you had to play 24 land, so you dont have that many slots anymore for other things.

i dont know if you play deed but if you do, then mox i even worser i think.

about the mana burn from ritual, most of the time it doesnt matter because a t1 hymn or confidant is still a hard play.

besides my answer i want to put a new list i'm working on here:

its not totally deadguy ale anymore but it works quite good,

4xserra avenger
4xdark confidant
4xspectral lynx(first this card was shade, but with all the white, shade was not good enough so i putted this card in, hes good with meekstone and against our big green friend)
4xbitterblossom

4xswords to plowshares

4xmeekstone
3xjitte(this card rocks with stone, avenger and blossom)

4xthougthsezie
4xduress(no hymn, because i didnt get constant dubbel b on t2)
4xvindicate

4xscrubland
1xgodless shrine
3xheath
3xmire
3xswamp
3xplains
4xwasteland

sideboard is meta dependend.

as you can see this list is based around meekstone, but its not meekstone dependent. so you can win very good without:laugh:

Hummingbird TG

06-25-2008, 10:58 AM

Um...nice list, I must say...but whats it do against Goblins? I mean, your Meekstone doesn't work, so its dead cards. Same with Duress. Thats 8 dead cards, and a generally averagely-speedy-to-slow gameplan - does not make for a good Gobbos match, if you ask me... (though then again we never had a good Goblins match XD)

electrolyze

06-25-2008, 11:37 AM

yes, goblins is a irritating mu.

in my side there are engineered plague against it and i have jitte in the main+removal. thats the only thing i can do against it i think with my list.

but there are almost no goblins in my meta so thats not a problem.

i think if you expect goblins, you should run another build or build your sideboard to beat it.

i builded the deck especially for an aggro-control/combo meta. my meta is fulled with combo/aggro-control and most of the time control decks too. control decks like landstill are very hard too, but bitterblossom and lynx are very good here+vindicate, discard, etc.

Shriekmaw

06-25-2008, 12:42 PM

Thank you for including Bitterblossom in your list. I think this card is pretty amazing in a Dead Guy Ale variant. If more people will simply test it out, they will find very similar results to the ones that I found.

Bitterblossom could be more broken in Deadguy, then the other decks in the format that I tested it in.

Let me know how your thoughts about the inclusion of the card.

Later

Hummingbird TG

06-25-2008, 12:51 PM

I'm testing it out, but I also play Thoughtseize and Tombstalker and Confidant, so it's really, really scary for me (especially when I don't play Top with the Tombstalker, already)...it seems nice for its ability to stall Thresh, tough (though it seems it would take at least 7 turns to win on its own...

electrolyze

06-26-2008, 01:11 AM

bitterblossom is really amazing in this deck. i tested it in different builds and in every build it rocked.

that meekstone build is a testbuild, but my other build is on the previous page and then the last build.

it includes, stalker, bob, blosom, seize and fetch, but i never had trouble with this. top+bob is almost no pain anymore and youoften dont cast more than 2 seize in a game.

about bitterblossom, i played once against ugr thresh which i had to mull to 4
i was on the play and i had, fetch, land, ritual, blossom. so i putted a t1 blossom into play and he had no fow. thats why i won that game, only becasue of blossom.

so, yes i think blossom is a good card for making this deck viable again in the meta.

Hummingbird TG

06-29-2008, 02:28 PM

Could we have a discussion about the Thresh Matchup? What tools does everyone use against it? Any problems with Tarmogoyf? (personally I do find it to be a big problem, want to see what everyone thinks) What do we sideboard?

Personally I run 4 CoP Green in the SB, I would run Story Circles but they cost 1WW and W to activate each time. Though, are CoP Green to narrow?

humppa

06-29-2008, 02:42 PM

Any problems with Tarmogoyf? (personally I do find it to be a big problem, want to see what everyone thinks)
4x StP
4x Vindicate
4x Bitterblossom
4x Spectral Lynx
4x Thoughtseize

I don't believe, that Goyf is a problem... :)

Hummingbird TG

06-29-2008, 02:48 PM

Well, that is if you do run Spectral Lynx (which I personally insist doesn't do enough - it doesn't beat, it doesn't disrupt, it doesn't draw cards, it dies to StP, and what's it do? Well, it saves you about 4 life a turn for B, and...............thats about it. I don't run Jitte, so I don't see a reason to run Lynx, and running Jitte and more creatures seems to make this a different deck altogether...)

Actually, I find Bitterblossom to be part of the problem. I think running 4 Bob, 2 Stalker, 7 Fetches, 4 Thoughtseize, and on top of that, Bitterblossom, to be losing me too much life - and Bitterblossom, to me, acts as a conditional Fog every turn for 1 life; thats not what I want of a card and 2 mana - I'd rather have Smother for 1B, or Damnation for 2BB, which actually solves the problem.

electrolyze

06-29-2008, 05:13 PM

i think goyf can be a problem sometimes but in my meekstone list hes not a problem, meekstone, stp, jitte+avener, blossom, lynx and the other stuff.

but in my normal list, goyf can be a bigger problem. i think explosives and stalker fized out threshold mu the most. explosives can be irritating for you too sometimes but most of the time he's doing a insane good job for me. i would recommend at least 2 mainboard if your build is more controllish than aggro.

you can put dystopia, chainer's edict or something like that in the side too against it. i played with edict for a while and it worked really great to me.

Hummingbird TG

06-30-2008, 10:08 AM

Problem though is that Meekstone, sadly, isn't exactly viable or the best in most matchups; and even if it is useful against Thresh you have to take one swing from Tarmogoyf before it gets locked down. And thats one swing for EACH creature he plays; and coupled with the life loss we play, thats often scary enough.

EExplosives has the odd problem of making Goyfs bigger. This normally wouldn't be a problem cos the Goyf would be dead, but it also often means that the next one that comes down is bigger than your Tombstalker -- and that is really scary.

Chainer's Edict and Dystopia look good, but certainly you can only side so much removal and pray to draw it and not get it countered; and Thresh is waaaaay more consistent than Deadguy, with its cantrips et all - and personally I find that to be a major problem.

As a sidenote, what's everyone think of Exalted Angel? By turn 5 I could be turning it sideways, and it races (and thrashes ) Goyf...but it costs WW. I'm thinking, maybe one or two to share Tombstalker's slot?

Hummingbird TG

07-01-2008, 02:55 PM

Sorry to double post, though my last post was before yesterday already, but I thought I'd propose an idea I proposed many, many pages back, about running an Enlightened Tutor toolbox in the board, with Jitte, Engineered Plague, Dystopia, Needle, Scroll, and other enchanty and artifacty goodness to tutor up, thus increasing the likelihood of drawing a bomb in each matchup (and there *are* loads of good Artifacts or Enchantments waiting to be loaded up on). Besides, we're playing most of those cards (Needle, Plague, Dystopia, for example) already, no?

Bando

07-03-2008, 12:41 AM

Good, good, I see some are messing with Bitterblossom, anf from the little time I have fooled around with it in a "Pikula" type of deck, I have greatly appreciated it's "get a free 'perm' a turn" ability, and even with as strong as Thoughtseize is, I'v always felt, and seen the combined life loss from fetchs, Bob, and Blossom to be a little too much for my comfort. Though getting back to this deck with the inclusion of some of the newer stuff like Bitterblossom , and that hunk of a demon Tombstalker, has piqued my interest in the deck once again. For anyone curios/still interested in "Dead Guy", I'll show what I'v been dicking around with, so I'll throw it up down there for ya, it doesn't have anything crazy in it, as I'v been pretty straight forward in my build. Though you may want to know, most "testing" and playing has been on MWS, which I'm sure you all know is a hilarious piece of software.

Pikula Thing I'v Been Using

Lands
2 Tainted Field (I hate you so damn much Tainted Field)
4 Bloodstained Mire (FETCH!)
4 Scrubland (RUBA DUB DUB!)
9 Swamp (Swamp)
4 Wasteland (Chicago)

Creatures/Kill
4 Bitterblossom (Good shit)
4 Dark Confidant (Good shit)
3 Nantuko Shade (This NEEDS to be 4, still, works)
2 Tombstalker (2 seems just right, for me at least)

The Other Stuff
4 Duress (Pretty good shit)
4 Hymn to Tourach (Good shit)
4 Sinkhole (Good shit)
4 Vindicate (If I could run 8, I would)
4 Swords to Plowshares (Good Shit)
4 Dark Ritual (Good shit)

Sideboard
1-2 Open Slots/moar kill/yard hates/whatever ya need
3 Pithing Needle (Good shit)
2-3 Perish (Carry over from past build, need replacing)
4 Engineered Plague (Good Shit)
4 Leyline of the Void (Really Good shit)

And that's all for now folks!

Hummingbird TG

07-03-2008, 05:52 AM

I'm curious to ask a few things:

1) As I asked in my earlier posts, whats everyone think about Exalted Angel?

2) And Enlightened Tutor?

On a newer issue, how's everyone play Sinkholes? I personally find them to slow and clunky, especially when on the draw (why pay BB to blow up land when you could be doing something else, like playing a threat, neutralizing a threat, or even Exalted Angel or Jitte (if you play them), no?

About Thoughtseize: If you ask me, you're going to be losing a hell lot of more life from Tarmogoyf than if you take it out of their hands straight. Still, I've found lifeloss to be a problem, but I'd suggest Exalteds instead of Blossoms, rather than cut Thoughtseize.

Hopo

07-03-2008, 05:54 AM

4 Vindicate (If I could run 8, I would)

You almost can by running Oblivion Rings.
They are something to try.

Hummingbird TG

07-03-2008, 05:57 AM

Bando

07-03-2008, 08:14 PM

Why would you run 8, though? They're 3cc. That makes them clunky. Sure, they're utility, but they're slow, don't come down early enough, and all. I'm pretty sure you don't want to end up with 2 or more Vindicates in your opening hand instead of juice such as Thoughtseize or Hymn...

OK, maybe 6, but they be some damn good eats. How could you not want a few more?

1) As I asked in my earlier posts, whats everyone think about Exalted Angel?

2) And Enlightened Tutor?

On a newer issue, how's everyone play Sinkholes? I personally find them to slow and clunky, especially when on the draw (why pay BB to blow up land when you could be doing something else, like playing a threat, neutralizing a threat, or even Exalted Angel or Jitte (if you play them), no?

About Thoughtseize: If you ask me, you're going to be losing a hell lot of more life from Tarmogoyf than if you take it out of their hands straight. Still, I've found lifeloss to be a problem, but I'd suggest Exalteds instead of Blossoms, rather than cut Thoughtseize.

Oh, Exalted Angel, I was steering clear of it, simply due to it's cc was a chunky 6, and that and Confidant I thought would be bad, then when I made a list, I threw in, of all things with a big cc, Tombstalker for some insane reason, I feel like I'm going senile. As far as playing with the Angel, I have yet to try it.

As for Enlightened Tutor, I saw your mention of it, but ignored it :tongue: I'v been messing with the deck more, and I'm testing multiple things out, but as for me personally, I just do not want to bother with it, still stuck in the old Confidant mindset, but I'll give it a go, eventually , to see how it plays out. At least I hope to.

As for your disgust with sinkhole, I actually had the bright idea to cut them out sometime today, along with Tombstalker and dropping to 22 land. Sinkhole for me usually does 2 things, delay the inevitable drop of something annoying, or literally nothing. I found I wanted just more of the other stuff, but have not been able to settle on anything just yet. As for Thoughtseize, I've been using it and mixing with duress, someyime just using 4, so I've been alternating between 4-6 1cc Discard Spells main, I haven't hit anything concrete for myself yet though, but the life loss hasn't been so bad, and like you said, it has been quite nice, nailing threats you might not have the removal for early on.

Some things I am very sure about, are, at least the inclusion of a couple of Jittes if you are using Bitterblossom, as an equipped and unchecked 1/1 can cause quite a bit of trouble for the other player. From my limited and absolutely wonky testing, I defiantly recommend including Jitte if you so happen to like Bitterblossom. Another card I had some room for that can be of some pretty fine service, has been the inclusion of a couple of Tops in my main. These things work very nicely with Confidant, for obvious reasons, and I might, no, I will up the fetchland count to make better use of them.

So, after all that, whose up for a list? No one? Not even Benie Bederios? Well fine, but I'm posting it anyway!

What I've been using as of Late

Land
8 Swamp (Swamp)
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted delta
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland

Creatures/Kill
4 Bitterblossom
4 Dark Confidant
4 Nantuko Shade
0-2 Jotun Grunt

All That Other Shit
3-4 Thoughtseize
3 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Dark Ritual

As for this list, I was/have been alternating between one with 6 1cc Discard in the form of 3 Thoughtseize and 3 Duress, I don't know why, 6 is sexy or something, but it seems to be a bit overkill on the Discard. As for the other, I've been using straight up 4 Thoughtseize, and in the 2 empty slots remaining, running a couple of Jotun Grunt, which have been quite nice actually, as they do the things you'd think they'd do (weaken goyf, pull shit out of the other guys yard, beat for 4, etc, etc.) so as for what's been doing me good, I have personally been leaning towards the list with Grunts.

Any thoughts/flames?

thefreakaccident

07-04-2008, 07:33 PM

Bando

07-04-2008, 08:01 PM

The list looks solid... how has the pain been?

between confidant, blossom, confidant, thoughtseize, and fetches... I can see it adding up quite quickly...

I like bitterblossom, but its' added pain could be too much to handle...

The pain? Most of the time, Bad very bad, that's why I'v been trying to get away with less Thoughtseize, such as a split between 2 Dures and 2 Thoughtseize. But yea, it hurts, but it so far, it's been hurtin good! Any other thoughts? Don't forget about Jitte though, I've been tempted to toss in another Jitte, to give me a better chance of seeing them, or just in case one happens to explode, as they help with the life loss if needed, or just help beat down. Maybe cut the Grunts (another Top and Jitte would be nice)? I'll have to mess with it some more.

Hummingbird TG

07-07-2008, 03:05 PM

With regards to Eventide, I realize not much interesting cards which may be relevant have been spoiled, but I would like to bring to our attention the cards which might be slightly playable at the very least...

Divinity of Pride :bw::bw::bw::bw::bw:
Creature - Spirit Avatar
Flying, lifelink
Divinity of Pride gets +4/+4 as long as you have 25 or more life.
4/4

Now, this guy can be played in place of Exalted Angel (for those excited by Exalted Angel, that is). He gains equally much life, costs 1 less, and can be played of Rits more easily than Angel (though for all intents and purposes this doesn't matter), and can be played without a white source in play. He doesn't cost you 6 life if you flip him, too. Problems forseeable are that he doesn't Morph, so the earliest you can see him, barring Rits, is turn 5, and that he requires 5 lands (once again, barring Rit)...

Mortality Liege :2::bw::bw::bw:
Creature - Horror
Other white creatures you control get +1/+1.
Other black creatures you control get +1/+1.
Whenever you play a white spell, you may tap target creature.
Whenever you play a black spell, you may destroy target creature if it is tapped.
3/4

Now this guy isn't as bomby, and is rather slow and clunky, but interests me in the sense that every dead Duress off the top, every late game Sinkhole (should you play it) or Hymn or Rit, kills that annoying Tarmogoyf that bashed you in the face last turn. Well, he does cost 5 and not impact the game much early, though...

What's everyone think?

fourleafedmonkey

07-07-2008, 05:26 PM

The pain? Most of the time, Bad very bad, that's why I'v been trying to get away with less Thoughtseize, such as a split between 2 Dures and 2 Thoughtseize. But yea, it hurts, but it so far, it's been hurtin good! Any other thoughts? Don't forget about Jitte though, I've been tempted to toss in another Jitte, to give me a better chance of seeing them, or just in case one happens to explode, as they help with the life loss if needed, or just help beat down. Maybe cut the Grunts (another Top and Jitte would be nice)? I'll have to mess with it some more.

I agree with you a lot.

I run duress over thoughtsieze and still the pain is horrible.
I played a janky deck that did absolutely no damage to me, yet i ended the game with 4 life because of the bitterblossom and unlucky confidant draws.

Bitterblossom is one of my favorite cards, but unless we want this to be suicide we need a way to gain life or something.

Jitte may be the best bet...

moOnsteak

07-07-2008, 06:30 PM

I agree with you a lot.

I run duress over thoughtsieze and still the pain is horrible.
I played a janky deck that did absolutely no damage to me, yet i ended the game with 4 life because of the bitterblossom and unlucky confidant draws.

Bitterblossom is one of my favorite cards, but unless we want this to be suicide we need a way to gain life or something.

Jitte may be the best bet...

Run :r:
and Hide/Seek will be available (only Seek if you don't agree with red). .
Favorable removed cards are usually Force of Will, FireBlast, Tombstalker, or Siege Gang Commander. .nice enough?

Hummingbird TG

07-08-2008, 12:18 PM

That way Seek is BW, gain 5-8 life. In other words, mad card disadvantage. Besides, 5 life is what I'm losing a turn to a Goyf anyways, so Seek basically becomes a Fog for 2 mana. No thanks.

On the issue of Lifegain, why does everyone seek to ignore Exalted Angel or Divinity of Pride? I mean, you already play Tombstalker, so flipping high cc cards isn't a problem for you. Note that I'm not saying play *both* Angel and Tombstalker, but replace Tombstalker with Angel; and Angel, for one, actually races Goyf and wins. If you really don't like the WW in the Angel's cost that much, there's always Divinity of Pride which does the same thing for one less Toughness(not like that matters) and the inability to morph..

carnifex

07-11-2008, 02:51 PM

In the life gain department I've been trying Descendant, which I know has already been discussed here. I find it underwhelming, but don't like the mana curve something like Angel requires. What does everybody think of this list:

4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Scrubland
1 Godless shrine
4 Swamps
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Tomb of Urami (Debated slot)

22 land

4 Dark confidant
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Hypnotic Specter
3 Nantuko Shade
2 Descendant of Kiyomaro

15 Creatures

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Smallpox
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
3 Dark Ritual

23 Spells

The -1 dark ritual was to accomodate room for a second Kiyomaro, and because the deck runs more white than some other recent builds posted here so Dark Ritual was more often a dead card, but still lends way to explosives openings and improved clock when a nantuko hits the dome. The top, when not chaliced, helps smoothen the course of the match, but I wish I could fit a third. And yes, I've tried 3x Tombstalker in place of grunt, but the grunt helps my matchup vs gy-orriented decks tenfold (particularly thresh).

My sideboard is as such:

2x Spectral Lynx
2x Yixlid Jailer
4x Engineered Plague
4x Extirpate
3x Pithing Needle

The sideboard lacks sweeps, and the usefulness of Jailer and Lynx are debatable (useless vs some archetypes, game-savers vs others).

Any points on my build?

Linkin Pac

07-18-2008, 05:42 PM

^ I feel the Tomb of Urami should definitely be taken out, since this deck needs its black mana and usually taps it all out throughout the first 3-4 turns. If Tomb gets played, say as your second land, then that's about 3 life taken by a deck that needs to maintain its life as much as possible. Plus, sacrificing your valuable lands late game weakens your late-game beater, Nantuko Shade.

BTW, good call on the single Godless Shrine. But as you say, your deck is more white-oriented than most. If your Scrublands end up getting Extirpated, are the Flagstones and single Shrine enough to support the Descendants? I've personally always felt that this deck's lands should always be able to produce black mana, and all cards with white should only have one white mana symbol.

Hummingbird TG

07-19-2008, 03:22 PM

Angel is similar to Tombstalker in that it has an alternate cost by which it can be played - and a large number of us, if not all, would agree that Tombstalker is at least strongly worthy of consideration, if not outright playable or good.

The strengths of Angel over Descendant are thus: Angel is big. She wins games fast, in 5 turns. To knock an opponent down from 20 with a Descendant (even assuming it to be a 3/5 lifelinker) would take 7 turns (conceeded in practically that it would most likely be 6, though). Also, Angel cannot be chumped - and they ability to finish games fast before removal or sweepers can be drawn by the opponent is invaluable. Other minor benefits of Angel include being difficult to Deed, un-Explosivesable, definitely a 4/5 lifelinker, generating more lifeswing than Goyf ever will in a Thresh Matchup (Goyf can possibly reach 6/7 from Thresh's graveyard alone), and more.

The weakness of Angel is her mana cost. Either you pay 6 for her, or you pay 7 over 2 turns. I find this hardly a problem for several reasons. Normally, your opening turns are filled with plays, but in the mid to late game, you slow down in pace when you draw dead, such as Discard and LD in the mid or late game when your opponent has stabilized (and at that point in time you need powerful cards like Angel to take over the game). In those turns, you sometimes even lack plays, passing the turn with much mana up (unless you have a Bob alive, in which case you have a good chance to win already, although confessedly with Goyfs around unanswered Bobs don't = win like they used to) - and this mana can be used to cast Angel. Casting over two turns, if we negate the minor possibility that she may be killed while still 2/2, is actually largely a boon as we may not actually reach 6 lands (or 4 lands and a Rit if you play it).

The other question about Angel is its WW cost. I hold that with Magus of the Moon running amok in this format, Basic Plains is good to have around. It also allows us to run maindeck StP (for those courageous enough to run maindeck StP without basic Plains, fear t3h Gobboz and Maguses!), and other goodies. More basics also lets us fetch less duals. With a basic plains, all we need to do is fetch one Scrubland to cast Angel, therefore it is not much of a problem, if one's mana base is suitably tuned. If you still fear playing too much manasources that don't produce black, try a singleton Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth? (Though I doubt it would help much)

Angel essentially trumps most threats in the format. Tarmogoyf? Bah, what's a 5-6 life swing on the ground when I can have 8 in the air? Especially, when against Threshold, building up to 4 or 5 lands (5 to avoid Daze, or to Seize or Duress an opponent first, prior to casting Angel) is not much of a difficult task, and Angels can be protected by Thoughtseizes, Hymns, Cabal Therapies, Duresses, or a horde of other discards in this deck. Mongoose is again outshone, because, 3/3 shroud is slow when I have a big Angel in the air. Angel helps against Gobbos' assaults as she pads your life total, and Angel is as big as Arc Slogger, but flies. The only thing bigger than Angel by much (especially in terms of Lifeswing) is Dreadnought, but even then Dreadnought is played only by one deck.

In essence, I hold that not merely does Angel deserve strong consideration in a deck, but instead that *NOT* playing Angel practically requires some strong reasoning or justification as to why that is such.

P.S.: Carnifex, with 15 creatures, Jitte is teh ultimate smex. It speeds up your clock, too, by around a full turn or so.

P.P.S.: Anyone playing Deadguy Ale at the Source Tournament?

EDIT: My, do I make the longest posts in this thread, or what? XD

carnifex

07-25-2008, 11:31 PM

I've switched over to a list like this for now:

4 Wasteland
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Windswept Heath
2 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Scrubland
1 Godless shrine
4 Swamps
1 Plains
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Volrath's Stronghold

22 land

4 Dark confidant
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Hypnotic Specter
4 Nantuko Shade

14 Creatures

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Funeral Charm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
3 Diabolic Edict

23 Spells

I'm considering acquiring some jittes as has been suggested, and also abandoned the descendant route - as it was only situationally effective and hardly provided a viable clock even when it was hitting face every turn. Exalted angel is also considerable.

I've always loved tombstalker. After reading about him in this build I acquired three and really enjoyed it, until I realized the amount of Thresh and Gy-based decks around made grunt more potent. I'd really like to somehow use the stalker in its most viable setting because it's a house that requires an answer and looks cool :P.

I also really like the charm, because its always got use in my deck whether it be tossing swampwalk to a shade, forcing a little more discard or killing a multitude of 1 toughness drops. Though I have considered dropping it for jittes and an extra grunt.

I'm liking the edicts as well, but they're debatable. Also, the 1 plains and fetch have proven just enough in the few games I've played vs magus of the moon and blood moon to hold down some white mana. Though I've also had people argue that the plains is incompatible with getting out early hymns and whatnot; though as a one-of I really don't see the danger.

Hummingbird TG

07-26-2008, 02:35 PM

@Carnifex:

Hypnotic Specters without Dark Ritual would be a pretty iffy choice if you ask me, as well as running 12 discard spells (16 including Hyppie) without a way to accel into them early game. I'd not play the Charms if I were you; they do nothing against Thresh, little to nothing against Goblins, and nothing to Landstill, the main decks in the format. It doesn't even kill Painter.

About Jitte, I think it is necessary, but I'm not sure if I'd run it with only 11 non-conditional Creatures (Jotun Grunt sometimes can't, or is not beneficial, to play, no?). Maybe a 2-of or 1-of? But Exalted Angel serves all the purposes Grunt serves (i.e. owning Thresh where it hurts), so I also urge playing it over Grunt. If you do so, replace the 4 Funeral Charms with 2 Jitte and 2 Tops, or 1 Jitte and 3 Tops, I'd suggest.

11 Removal spells MD, though? Why? (Or is that based on Meta?)

carnifex

07-27-2008, 12:05 PM

So you really don't think the charms are versatile eh? I guess I can see where you're coming from since the charm offers several things - but each is only mildly effective and hardly trumps tier decks.

Yeah, the edicts were just experimental. They've panned out nicely against shroud creatures, and for ensuring that I can hold down against aggro or aggro-control like thresh, goblins, and whatnot.

Perhaps 2 Jittes and 2 Tops is the way to go. I'll try the jittes, and maybe replace the edicts with rituals?

Also I like angel, but I just feel its slow and even more unreliable if you take the risks of morphing it. Do you have a list you could show me of what you think is most optimal right now, Hummingbird?

Ghostfire45

07-27-2008, 01:08 PM

You will probably want to try Unmake. You are a :wb: deck that can cast Vindicate so :wb: :wb: :wb: should not be a problem.

Hummingbird TG

07-27-2008, 01:14 PM

I think your list would be good, -4 Shade for some land and more disruption and -3 Grunt for 3 Angel (after adding the Tops and Jittes). With Angel you definitely want to be able to have 4 lands around, and sometimes having more lands is always handy to play around Daze, in my opinion. I'd also rework the manabase slightly, I don't like Flagstones (Moon, Magus of the or Blood varieties) and you're definitely short in Fetches to support Top. I'd play 8 Fetches to run Top, or at least 7 if you're scared of lifeloss with your lands...

TheLion

07-27-2008, 02:32 PM

You will probably want to try Unmake. You are a :wb: deck that can cast Vindicate so :wb: :wb: :wb: should not be a problem.

Mortify would probably be better.

Hummingbird TG

07-27-2008, 04:01 PM

You will probably want to try Unmake. You are a :wb: deck that can cast Vindicate so :wb: :wb: :wb: should not be a problem.

Mortify would probably be better.

Both would be crappy, actually. So crappy that they wouldn't be funny. 3 mana already costs more than most threats in the format you'd be destroying, and therefore most 3 mana removal would be crappy, unless it had a large impact on the game (i.e. WoG at 4 mana), or were versatile.

And versatility is Vindicate's saving grace. Being able to destroy Jitte, Counterbalances and annoying creatures, all in one card. Take that away (even just slightly, in Mortify's case) would mean the death knell for those cards. Even Oblivion Ring (for it cannot blow up problematic lands) would be, in my opinion, unplayable. Being able to answer everything in the maindeck is necessary for a deck as slow as Deadguy Ale.

carnifex

07-29-2008, 05:33 PM

Alright hummingbird, your advice has always proven reliable for me before (yeah I've been a reader of the thread longer than a poster) so I'll give your suggestions a whirl. It seems as though you're guiding my list away from the aggro-control route, which MAY just be what this deck needs to add some consistency. This will be my first deadguy build not using shades, so I'm a bit sceptical at the moment of how angel will do on her own.

Also, why am I adding jittes if my creature base is being reduced to 10 creatures based on your suggestions. How many hippies / angels should I be running?

Hummingbird TG

07-30-2008, 03:10 PM

I'm not actually sure about the Jittes yet. It's really good when it's good, but it's a dead card when it's not. However, we have to see that discard, and to a much more visible extent, LD (should you choose to run it), has that same drawback too. So it's basically a trade between power and consistency...

I don't know which one I prefer yet, as I said, though, and perhaps flying over Thresh's ground beaters with a Hyppie carrying Jitte ftw was fun enough to sway my view slightly. But still, testing Jitte and deciding if the power is worth the dead card in some situations can't possibly hurt, I suppose, no?

As for Angel, she is t3h bomb. Moreso than Shade, definitely. Shade is succeptible to more kinds of removal (such as Smother, Lightning Bolt, EE, .etc), and doesn't have the 8 point life swing Angel has (and by the time it does you'd probably either have won or lost the game). And most importantly Angel flies. She flies over Thresh's big ground beaters, deals them damage, and gains you life. Now, this is important because Shade can't play both offense and defense at the same time (you either attack and leave yourself open, or not attack at all, but Angel can attack, and use the 4 life gained as a buffer from the attack on your opponent's turn) - and this speeds up our clock, which is necessary as we have to win before the opponent recovers from our disruption.

Furthermore, I find that having a finisher without evasion (and thus succeptible to being easily chump-blocked) sort of beats the purpose of a finisher, no?

On a completely different issue, what lands with special effects do you guys play in your manabase(such as Volrath's Stronghold, Tomb of Urami, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth .etc), and why (or why not)? I was recently considering Volrath's Stronghold, but the fact that it produced colorless (added to 4 Wastelands and 1 basic Plains, thats 6 lands out of 23 I play that don't produce black) scared me a little, as well as that it was Wasteable. Opinions?

EDIT: @carnifex: 3 Hyppies and 3 Angels, in my opinion.

carnifex

07-30-2008, 06:52 PM

And what about extra removal, as you said I should seek the aid of in a more control-orriented build.

I've been rotating between charm, diabolic edict, smother, and smallpox - each with their ups and downs. I want something more versatile but alas vindicate is already in the deck :P. Funeral charm provides the most options but none of them are particularly threatening / game changing (actually, rarely they can be). Edict gets past shroud creatures but is at risk of having fodder thrown at it. Smother deals with many integral creatures in the format but has a very real limit to it scope of targets. Smallpox can be devestating if well-timed, but I often find myself holding it for lack of an optimal situation in which to use it. It was also more appealing when I ran stalkers.

And from what I've seen with jitte in the past, it just seems like win-more, or has nothing to grab onto, or shows up too early / late. And in a build with just 4 confidants, some hippies and exalted angels / <insert win con here> its even less useful.

Hummingbird TG

08-02-2008, 03:23 AM

Jitte can speed up your clock by a whole turn or two, though. That's useful when up against decks that could just topdeck removal for your creatures, no?

As for the removal problem, who knows, after the Source Tourney some new innovations may spring up, perhaps?

carnifex

08-04-2008, 04:23 PM

Who is piloting deadguy at that tourny?

Hummingbird TG

08-05-2008, 10:56 AM

No idea, I'm wondering too. I asked on this thread before if anyone was playing Deadguy but no replies. Well, we can only hope, tho, i guess?

Valarne

08-09-2008, 01:03 PM

Hummingbird TG

08-10-2008, 04:01 PM

I'm trying to make it work, but I have some difficulties with opposing creatures, and all in all, I feel that the deck is placed in a strange middle-position, where it has decent replies to a lot a stuff, but carries to weak threats it self (maybe tombstalker should be sideboarded in instead of Grunt?). The current list I'm testing is (in part to deal with mentioned problems):

4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept
4 Bloodstained
3 Swamps
1 Plains
1 Volraths Stronghold

4 Dark Confidant
4 Jotun Grunt
4 Nantuko Shade

4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
2 Extirpate
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Engineered Explosives
2 Senseis Divining Top
1 Cursed Scroll
4 Dark Ritual

SB:
3 Engineered Plague
2 Extirpate
4 Disenchant
3 Wrath of God (should be Damnation)
2 Tormod's Crypt

To all those who complain about weak threats, I have recommended, do recommend and will continue to recommend Exalted Angel. Just try it, it won't disappoint. I've posted many arguments why Exalted Angel is win, and even compared it to Tarmogoyf (those posts are earlier in this page, I think EDIT: oops, they're on the previous page).

Cursed Scroll, I think, personally, is a bad card. It's a bad answer and a bad threat. Firstly, a bad threat - because 2 damage a turn, for 3 mana, is not economical; and nor is it fast. Then it is a bad answer - 3 mana, kills one creature a turn, and that creature must even have toughness less than 2! Perhaps in the heyday of Goblins, as a late game answer, but I wouldn't run it in the era of Thresh. While it is resilient and hard to remove, it is painfully slow and cannot impact the board much - and even when it can, only against several decks which do not compose large majorities in a non random metagame (and even then, what deck now cannot easily remove an artifact between the main or the side?). Cursed Scroll, if run, I believe, should remain in the Sideboard, and also as more than a 1-off (for in matchups where you need it it's invaluable, so you want to draw them, but Sideboarded because in other matches it's utter crap).

On Tombstalker, no point keeping him in side. You'd hardly have a game where you wouldn't want him MDed. Perhaps less Grunts/Shades for 1 or 2 Stalkers?

Wrath of God is slow and clunky. I don't like it. And why only 3 Plagues without any way to tutor for them? Also, Tormod's Crypt is only a temporary answer, and in Black, the color of permanent graveyard answers, I wouldn't play it. Disenchant is also too narrow and too seldomly board impacting, I think.

carnifex

08-11-2008, 12:07 AM

4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
4 Swamps
1 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
1 Plains
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Volrath's Stronghold

21 land

4 Dark confidant
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Hypnotic Specter
3 Nantuko Shade
2 Tombstalker

15 Creatures

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
3 Smother
3 Dark Ritual

23 Spells

SB:

4 Engineered plague
3 Leyline of the Void
3 Extirpate
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Nevinyrral's Disk

This is my current list and has seen probably the most success (obviously geared a bit more heavily towards the aggro / aggro-control matchups like thresh). Obviously having both Stalker and grunt is a bit lacking of synergy but neither are four-ofs and I've been able to pull it off so far. Jitte is awesome :D

Tombstalker has also sometimes been spectral lynx which is a fun and reliable way to stack jitte counters at least as a blocker when board position isn't optimal.

Thoughts?

Pulp_Fiction

08-11-2008, 12:27 AM

raharu

08-11-2008, 02:01 AM

If you're running 15 Creatures, why not play MoR?

Hummingbird TG

08-11-2008, 02:09 AM

Depending on your meta I would not run any more than 2x Jotun Grunt in the main. Just a rule I have because when you draw the Grunt in multiples it is just a damn nightmare. I would go something along the lines of -1 Grunt -1 Smother and +2 Spectral Lynx. The Lynx is just one of my favorite creatures and unless there is a ton of Goblins in your meta would be a perfect fit in the deck.

Lynx has too little impact on the board unless you draw Jitte, IMO. I wouldn't run it.

If you're running 15 Creatures, why not play MoR?

What creatures do you want to protect with MoR in that list? Nothing looks like it would be worthwhile enough, or fast enough, to accord another card to protect it (Perhaps Confidant, but by the time you set up Confidant after waiting for your MoR to become active, enjoy staring down a board full of Goyfs). And on it's own, MoR doesn't have much impact on the board. What're you going to cut for it, anyway?

raharu

08-11-2008, 02:14 AM

What creatures do you want to protect with MoR in that list? Nothing looks like it would be worthwhile enough, or fast enough, to accord another card to protect it (Perhaps Confidant, but by the time you set up Confidant after waiting for your MoR to become active, enjoy staring down a board full of Goyfs). And on it's own, MoR doesn't have much impact on the board. What're you going to cut for it, anyway?
A board full of 'Goyf isn't as bad as it would be without MoRs. It's just a really strong white creature that has synergy with the more creature-oriented lists. Personally I don't play BW agro-control without a playset, but I do see a problem fitting them in. Also, TS, Specter, Shade, and Confidant all look like they're worth protecting.

Hummingbird TG

08-11-2008, 02:40 AM

Well, there are other better cards that could deal with a board full of Goyfs; my point was that keeping your creatures on the board aren't as relevant as answering the pressing problem of the Goyfs - MoR doesn't answer them, she only delays the inevitable. And keeping a Confidant around for a few more turns is only worth it if you can draw something worthwhile, Specter, only if you can discard something useful (or if there are even cards in their hand in the first place). Stalker doesn't adequately deal with problems, for all he is is a beater, and if he stays to block, he doesn't beat. And he doesn't kill Goyfs either. Shade I actually like, but then I would actually have to play Shade to use MoR.

My answer of choice to Goyfs or any other situation would be the self-contained answer of Exalted Angel, which doesn't require two cards to be effective; and my answer of choice to removal would be Volrath's Stronghold (and for that matter, discard ripping that removal out of their hands).

raharu

08-11-2008, 08:15 PM

Right, right, and I like having MoR in addition to the two.

Hummingbird TG

08-12-2008, 09:07 AM

My question is, actually, what would you cut for MoR? I can't find a slot worth putting it into.

raharu

08-12-2008, 10:20 AM

That simply depends on what you feel is core to the deck. With 4x StP and 4x Vindicate I've never felt the need for Smother (on top of, in carnifex's list, 3x Edict in the side). Of course, I'm sure there are those that find it vital for some reason or another, just as there are those that don't leave home without 2x Damnation in the Side. It's a question of what non-vital card does what it does the worst, and can it be removed for what you want to put in. IMO, Smother does what it does the worst, so it can go for MoR, and perhaps another slot could be freed for the 4th MoR. Perhaps not. It's a matter of preference, I guess, and I'm inclined toward MoR.

EDIT: Just a side note, T1 Mother will make threshold's day miserable. That, or take a FoW. One of the two.

carnifex

08-12-2008, 06:19 PM

Smother is a meta choice and the edicts in the board were a last second entry. Though I don't feel inclined towards MoR so much, and so even if I cut back on the removal I would hardly want to throw in more creatures. Also, vindicate is not necessarily creature removal and I often find myself targetting various other things, which leaves STP as the only strict creature removal, so I don't think the 3 smothers are overkill - though what is debatable is whether smother is the best I could have in that slot.

Wallace

08-12-2008, 06:45 PM

morgan_coke

08-12-2008, 06:56 PM

Has anyone been looking at Stillmoon Cavalier? He's immune to all removal except lighting bolt and can first strike goblins all day. He can also fly over threshold. He doesn't pump as well as Shade does, and costs more, but still, being essentially indestructible and blocking everything not named 'Goyf all day long has to be worth something (for three mana he kills mongoose first strikey style, also, enforcer can't block him)

Also, has anyone tried Batwing Brume in the board? Goblin players know, expect, and are used to dealing with plague. Not so much with a fog that zaps them for 10 life.

I'm a TROLL

08-12-2008, 09:32 PM

To all those who complain about weak threats, I have recommended, do recommend and will continue to recommend Exalted Angel. Just try it, it won't disappoint. I've posted many arguments why Exalted Angel is win, and even compared it to Tarmogoyf (those posts are earlier in this page, I think EDIT: oops, they're on the previous page).

Cursed Scroll, I think, personally, is a bad card. It's a bad answer and a bad threat. Firstly, a bad threat - because 2 damage a turn, for 3 mana, is not economical; and nor is it fast. Then it is a bad answer - 3 mana, kills one creature a turn, and that creature must even have toughness less than 2! Perhaps in the heyday of Goblins, as a late game answer, but I wouldn't run it in the era of Thresh. While it is resilient and hard to remove, it is painfully slow and cannot impact the board much - and even when it can, only against several decks which do not compose large majorities in a non random metagame (and even then, what deck now cannot easily remove an artifact between the main or the side?). Cursed Scroll, if run, I believe, should remain in the Sideboard, and also as more than a 1-off (for in matchups where you need it it's invaluable, so you want to draw them, but Sideboarded because in other matches it's utter crap).

On Tombstalker, no point keeping him in side. You'd hardly have a game where you wouldn't want him MDed. Perhaps less Grunts/Shades for 1 or 2 Stalkers?

Wrath of God is slow and clunky. I don't like it. And why only 3 Plagues without any way to tutor for them? Also, Tormod's Crypt is only a temporary answer, and in Black, the color of permanent graveyard answers, I wouldn't play it. Disenchant is also too narrow and too seldomly board impacting, I think.

Exhausted angel is sooo good - I 2nd this statment. What would you rather draw off a topdeck? Cursed Scroll or angel?

What is MoR?

Hummingbird TG

08-13-2008, 05:50 AM

Here is the list I have been throwing around for about a month now, it works well against most decks in the current meta and doesn't have any really bad match ups.

4 Dark Confidant
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter
2 Jotun Grunt

4 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate
4 Dark Ritual
3 Bitterblossom

4 Scrubland
2 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Volrath's Stronhold
1 Urborb, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
6 Swamp

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Engineered Plague
3 Krosan Grip
2 Thoughtseize
2 Jotun Grunt

A few questions: firstly, you're playing green.........but substituting the almighty Tarmogoyf with the replacement of...Jotun Grunt? I fail to see the logic in that. The graveyards will be filled when playing Deadguy, anyway (or is it that you don't want to fetch too many lands?).

Secondly, why Bitterblossom? I tried it before, and without Jitte, it was really underwhelming. And with Jitte, it was too slow setting up. And really, one life a turn for a chump blocker a turn isn't really what I wish to be doing (as much as it slows down the opponent, it also puts a permanent clock on my life total (which regularly is only around 10-15 anyway). Perhaps with Angel it would be understandable (for the lifeloss can be made back), but else I wouldn't play it.

Also, no 4 Thoughtseize MD? I wouldn't leave home without those, frankly. Against too many decks do I need, or want, to take creatures out of opponents' hands. Not playing 4 is taking an unnecessary risk which causes your opponent to be more likely to destroy you with creatures, especially when you only have 4 real creature removal spells.

Has anyone been looking at Stillmoon Cavalier? He's immune to all removal except lighting bolt and can first strike goblins all day. He can also fly over threshold. He doesn't pump as well as Shade does, and costs more, but still, being essentially indestructible and blocking everything not named 'Goyf all day long has to be worth something (for three mana he kills mongoose first strikey style, also, enforcer can't block him)

Also, has anyone tried Batwing Brume in the board? Goblin players know, expect, and are used to dealing with plague. Not so much with a fog that zaps them for 10 life.

Stillmoon Cavalier may look almost immortal, but which slot does he go into? Confessedly, he is a clock which is rather hard to get rid of, but do we want that, especially one that is extremely slow/doesn't do enough on its own without little mana? Besides, it is not entirely accurate to say that only Lightning Bolt kills him. In red alone, Fanatic does too, as does Incinerator. In general, Engineered Explosives (which is rather widely played in control, and maybe some aggro control lists), and Pernicious Deed, just to name a few.

On Batwing Brume, a fog that deals damage is still a fog. Would we be able to damage goblins enough so much so that a Brume can kill them, or we can damage them enough after a Brume to kill them? In both cases, I believe my answer is no, for Goblins develops faster than we do; and when they have a board amassed enough to attack us with, we hardly have any way to deal damage in before dealing with the swarm.

Exalted angel is sooo good - I 2nd this statment. What would you rather draw off a topdeck? Cursed Scroll or angel?

What is MoR?

(spelling corrected)

MoR is Mother of Runes. And, I'm glad that someone agrees with me on Angel, for once. To everyone else, it can't hurt to test Angel and see, can it? You may like it, methinks.

humppa

08-13-2008, 09:15 AM

I'm glad that someone agrees with me on Angel, for once. To everyone else, it can't hurt to test Angel and see, can it? You may like it, methinks.
I like the idea of Angel, but i'm playing BWg and i'm little worry about the mana base - WW is really a lot :( I am heavy on black, so BB for a stalker is not a problem as WW for Angel could be.

Hummingbird TG

08-13-2008, 11:18 AM

I like the idea of Angel, but i'm playing BWg and i'm little worry about the mana base - WW is really a lot :( I am heavy on black, so BB for a stalker is not a problem as WW for Angel could be.

I take it G is for Tarmogoyf? I hold, however, that Angel is miles better than Tarmogoyf, and switching to BW (with more emphasis of White instead of the Green) would thereby only lose you Krosan Grip (but would gain you Exalted Angel, and tons of other cards which cost more than one W (should you desire to play them).

Why miles better than Tarmogoyf? Because when both players have Tarmos, you get a ground stall. However when you have an Angel and the opponent has a Tarmo, you can deal damage in the air and he can't block it, and gain back the life so that you don't get damaged by his return attack. Therefore Tarmogoyfs can't stall up the ground when you have Angel.

Why not Stalker? Because Stalker lacks the lifegain, and thus when you're put on defensive, such as against Thresh, you can still attack with Angel, but not Stalker as you have to keep him back to block for fear of your life total being destroyed on the return attack.

I'm a TROLL

08-13-2008, 02:48 PM

A few questions: firstly, you're playing green.........but substituting the almighty Tarmogoyf with the replacement of...Jotun Grunt? I fail to see the logic in that. The graveyards will be filled when playing Deadguy, anyway (or is it that you don't want to fetch too many lands?).

Secondly, why Bitterblossom? I tried it before, and without Jitte, it was really underwhelming. And with Jitte, it was too slow setting up. And really, one life a turn for a chump blocker a turn isn't really what I wish to be doing (as much as it slows down the opponent, it also puts a permanent clock on my life total (which regularly is only around 10-15 anyway). Perhaps with Angel it would be understandable (for the lifeloss can be made back), but else I wouldn't play it.

Also, no 4 Thoughtseize MD? I wouldn't leave home without those, frankly. Against too many decks do I need, or want, to take creatures out of opponents' hands. Not playing 4 is taking an unnecessary risk which causes your opponent to be more likely to destroy you with creatures, especially when you only have 4 real creature removal spells.

Stillmoon Cavalier may look almost immortal, but which slot does he go into? Confessedly, he is a clock which is rather hard to get rid of, but do we want that, especially one that is extremely slow/doesn't do enough on its own without little mana? Besides, it is not entirely accurate to say that only Lightning Bolt kills him. In red alone, Fanatic does too, as does Incinerator. In general, Engineered Explosives (which is rather widely played in control, and maybe some aggro control lists), and Pernicious Deed, just to name a few.

On Batwing Brume, a fog that deals damage is still a fog. Would we be able to damage goblins enough so much so that a Brume can kill them, or we can damage them enough after a Brume to kill them? In both cases, I believe my answer is no, for Goblins develops faster than we do; and when they have a board amassed enough to attack us with, we hardly have any way to deal damage in before dealing with the swarm.

(spelling corrected)

MoR is Mother of Runes. And, I'm glad that someone agrees with me on Angel, for once. To everyone else, it can't hurt to test Angel and see, can it? You may like it, methinks.

Flyring, lifelink, 4/5 is amazing. I may be biased tho becaus I play against Stax a lot

humppa

08-14-2008, 06:23 AM

I take it G is for Tarmogoyf? I hold, however, that Angel is miles better than Tarmogoyf, and switching to BW (with more emphasis of White instead of the Green) would thereby only lose you Krosan Grip (but would gain you Exalted Angel, and tons of other cards which cost more than one W (should you desire to play them).

Why miles better than Tarmogoyf? Because when both players have Tarmos, you get a ground stall. However when you have an Angel and the opponent has a Tarmo, you can deal damage in the air and he can't block it, and gain back the life so that you don't get damaged by his return attack. Therefore Tarmogoyfs can't stall up the ground when you have Angel.

Why not Stalker? Because Stalker lacks the lifegain, and thus when you're put on defensive, such as against Thresh, you can still attack with Angel, but not Stalker as you have to keep him back to block for fear of your life total being destroyed on the return attack.
I play G for Doran, Goyf, Deed and Krosan Grip

Stalker si great for his low mana cost. Angel is 4cc-2turns, or 6cc-1turn. Very expensive. With many fetchlands and fast spells (thougthseize, hymn, dures, ...) could be Stalker really cheap. Armageddon is still played.

raharu

08-14-2008, 11:36 AM

I play G for Doran, Goyf, Deed and Krosan Grip

Stalker si great for his low mana cost. Angel is 4cc-2turns, or 6cc-1turn. Very expensive. With many fetchlands and fast spells (thougthseize, hymn, dures, ...) could be Stalker really cheap. Armageddon is still played.
This. I'd love to play Angel, but she's a bit on the slow side.

Aboroth

08-14-2008, 12:00 PM

I think in a BW-control exalted angel is the best choice.

Nearly 2 years ago, I was bored by playing Shades, Specters and Dark Ritual..

So I started to envelope a version with more aggro on the table.

The result is a weenie-deck using black for dark confidant (cardadvantage) and duress (against massremovals). Also the black mana allows to use disruptionspells from sideboard.

So, this is my actual decklist:

Dark Weenie
Lands (20)
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
3 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Godless Shrine
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
1 Bloodstained Mire

Creatures (24)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Savannah Lions
4 Serra Avenger
4 Silver Knight
3 Spectral Lynx
3 Jötun Grunt
2 Isamaru, H. of Konda

Other spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Æther Vial
2 Vindicate
3 Duress
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Cabal Therapy

Sideboard (15)
4 Gerrard’s Verdict
3 Armageddon
3 Extirpate
2 Vindicate
2 Disenchant
1 Umezawa’s Jitte

Hummingbird TG

08-14-2008, 12:12 PM

Well, since I'm out of contention now (3-2-1), I might as well post my list. Report to come when the whole thing is over. However, just to tease, secret tech still stays secret, for now.

First, the List I played in the Tourney (to my opponent next round, enjoy. XD):

Enlightened Ale v 1.0

Mana

4 Scrubland
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
7 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Plains

23

Utility Creatures

4 Dark Confidant
4 Hypnotic Specter

8

Disruption and Control

4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sensei's Divining Top

19

Tutor/Bullets

3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Engineered Explosives

5

WIN

3 Exalted Angel

3

TECH

2 Super Secret Tech (no, as in, Tech, not the foil card)

2

The SB is a mess. As you can see, the manabase is horrendous. I cobbled the list together just a day before the Tourney, and i forgot to include several cards, nor did I change the manabase from my earlier 4 Pithing Needle list (which used horrendously few fetches). I'll EDIT in the Secret Tech after the tourney, which would probably make the list less like a pile.

And yes, as far as I've seen, this thrashes Thresh.

raharu

08-14-2008, 12:39 PM

@ Aboroth: Looks like an old Bunnies build. That, or something like the Bunnies/DeadGuy Ale hybrid that Citrius God was working on a while back (like, MD'd Plauged and worrying about thresold's graveyard and Flash combo old). That's not to say that it isn't playable or viable in the current metagame, it just needs to be modernized a bit.

In the course of trying to modernize Bunnies over the course of roughly a year, I eventually ended up with this:

Mana: 20
Crome Moxen x4
Windswept Heath x3
Bloodstained Mire x3
Scrubland x4
Swamp x3
Plains x3

Creatures: 18
Mother of Runes x4
Dark Confidant x4
Jotun Grunt x2
Serra Avenger x3
Tomstalker x3
2x empty slots

Equipment: 2
Jitte x2

Planeswalkers: 2
Ajani Goldmane x2

Disruption: 10
Thoughtseize x4
Duress/ Cabal Therapy x2
Gerard's Verdict x4

Removal: 8
Swords to Plowshares x4
Vindicate x4

Yep. Doesn't look anything like the old Bunnies lists. There are a few reasons for this.

1) Small creatures don't work in Legacy anymore. Savanah Lions is unplayable crap, and Isamaru isn't worth playing past turn 3. Silver Knight doesn't have any relevant abilities in this metagame, isn't large enough, and isn't cost effective (again, for this metagoyf). If it were W instead of WW I'd play it, but since it's not, I'm kinda forced to sugest against it.

2) Combo has become more resilient. A sindle discard effect isn't going to do jack anymore. If you want to beat them game one, I'd play at least 8, 4 of which being Thoughtseize without a doubt.

3) Control... is control. The only chance you really have there is to eat their hand and drop an enormous clock/ protect your a threat as it goes the distance/ be able to win a war of atrittion. MoR protects your threat(s), Tombstalker/ Avenger/ Grunt/ Jitte go the distance, Dark Confidant helps win that war of attrition, and (this overlaps into point one) Isamaru, Lions, Silver Knight don't do any of that.

tl;dr I wasn't able to make a WB Zoo deck that was viable in this metagame because WB Zoo isn't viable in this metagoyf. I'll be trying it again soon, but I don't expect better results.

Aboroth

08-14-2008, 04:43 PM

@raharu: I can follow your critique in a few points, but I'll report after the German Legacy Championships.

Carabas

08-16-2008, 05:16 AM

You don't want weenies, and for the most part, I can understand that. What about spectral lynx, though? Regenerators are always annoying to deal with, and chumping goyfs all day long wouldn't be too horrid in the current meta, would it?

Rush

08-17-2008, 06:03 PM

I've been testing this deck recently. All I have to say, is this is the best ROGUE deck I've ever seen (small joke, please tell me someone gets it). Also, Hummingbird, why do you have so few targets for Tutor; or are your "Tech" cards tutorable?

carnifex

08-24-2008, 01:05 PM

Come on Hummingbird, reveal your tech! :D

Hummingbird TG

08-24-2008, 01:18 PM

I guess I am owing everyone a list, so here is what I played:

Enlightened Ale v 1.0

Mana

4 Scrubland
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
7 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Plains

23

Utility Creatures

4 Dark Confidant
4 Hypnotic Specter

8

Disruption and Control

4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sensei's Divining Top

19

Tutor/Bullets

3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Moat

7

WIN

3 Exalted Angel

3

The SB was a wreck, basically. I can't believe I forgot to run Bitterblossom and Runed Halo in the build I played. But still, Moats FTW. Those things stop Goyfs dead.

Basically the Tournament went something like

Round 1 Stax 2-0

Round 2 UGb Thresh 2-0

Round 3 Landstill 0-2

Round 4 DRAW (opponent and I can't find time to play)

Round 5 BYE (Isamaru never pm-ed me back)

Round 6 Solidarity 0-2 (well, sometimes MWS hates me)

Round 7 DRAW (neither me nor opp pm each other)

Overall not very good a tourney, but I like the Moats in the deck very much. They stop random aggro too, as well as any creatures which cause a problem by dealing too much damage. I would run Volrath's Stronghold in the list were I to run it today though. Maybe a report to come if I can recall the matches well enough.

raharu

08-24-2008, 07:12 PM

Rush

08-25-2008, 12:12 PM

Hummingbird: Have you tried Bitterblossom in the main? I would think it would combo nicely with Moat.

Randomness: Is anyone else a fan of the actual beer Dead Guy Ale?

carnifex

08-28-2008, 01:00 AM

I really like your list a lot hummingbird. I hope I can snag some tutors and angels soon.

Bitterblossom seems almost like overkill, and the list ran smoothly already. Nobody anticipates the moat :P.

ssilver

08-28-2008, 01:38 AM

Suggestion for Hummingbird. No rituals means 3rd turn Hippie at best. Goyf comes down turn 2, and a turn 4 - whatever random discard isn't that great when Thresh can go into top-deck mode and still beat. Bitterblossom is hard to remove, grows into a larger threat the longer it is allowed to last, and is fetchable with E tutor. It's offspring stay alive when it dies, allowing to go 2 for 1 removal (if they are packing explosives) and sometimes even better.

Hummingbird TG

08-28-2008, 10:11 AM

I'm glad about the enthusiasm about my list. XD About Bitterblossom, I heavily regret not having it in the board, and I definitely should side at least one. For Hyppie, however, he has more direct impact on the game than blossom (i.e. impacts the game state immediately, being a creature that can block and attack the next turn); furthermore he is 3cc which dodges CB, and is dangerous for control decks to leave around. I wouldn't mind any flying attacker to carry a Jitte in that slot, though.

And Goyf? He doesn't get through a Moat. I don't need more creatures that can't get around a Moat...

Angels FTW, btw, as I've already said. I'm playing around with a normal Deadguy Ale build (those with Sinkholes and no fancy tricks) with Exalted Angel in Shade's slot, and I like that very much too..

ssilver

08-28-2008, 02:02 PM

@Hummingbird: What's your SB look like?

Shawon

08-28-2008, 04:56 PM

All this talk about Bitterblossom got me really interested in trying out a list of my own using Bitterblossom and Dark Confidant.

Here's what I ended up with, so far:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
5 Snow-Covered Swamp
2 Godless Shrine

4 Exalted Angel
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Dark Confidant

4 Hymn to Tourach (1)
4 Thoughtseize
4 Bitterblossom
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Chrome Mox
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Vindicate
3 Duress

The core of this deck revolves around Confidant and Bitterblossom. Thus, Chrome Mox is used as a way to fuel out possible turn 1 Confidants/Blossoms.

Obviously, you need life gain to counteract the drawbacks of DC/BB thus Exalted Angel (ironically) and Umezawa's Jitte are used.

I'm pretty sure the manabase could be tweaked even more, possibly adding a third color. Should I add an Urborg? At first I used Wasteland, but I thought it wasn't worth it, since you can't capitalize the tempo as you would with Wasteland playing a deck like Eva Green. (Also why I don't use Sinkhole.) Not to mention, the colorless mana sucks.

I was using Gerrard's Verdict in the Duress slot for a bit more punch, but I opted for Duress since it smoothes the mana curve.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

ssilver

08-29-2008, 02:41 AM

Hummingbird: If you do not make a new name/post for this B/W control deck (thats what it is in all honesty) then I will. After some testing I have found that your decklist is actually really good compared to others *nods in acquiescence.
Top is kinda funny as a 2 of, as you never want to tutor for it, and it's a bad topdeck late game. Maybe BB in that slot?

electrolyze

08-29-2008, 10:05 AM

hey hummingbird, i like that tutor list, but im more a tempo player and i like exalted angel very much. so, i really like to know what your normal list with sinkholes and stuff looks like.

about bitterblossom, the build im playing with blossom right now(actually, its the only deadguy build im playing right now because i like it very much) is:

meekguy ale:

creatures:

4xserra avenger
4xspectral lynx
4xdark confidant

enchantments:

4xbitterblossom

artifacts:

3xmeekstone
3xjitte
1xsensei's divining top(i had one slot over because i cutted a meekstone, 3 where enough, so i putted this card into the list)

sorceries:

4xthoughtseize
4xduress
4xvindicate

instants:

4xswords to plowshares

land:

4xscrubland
1xgodless shrine
4xwasteland
3xbloodstained mire
3xwindswept heath
3xswamp
3xplains

this build works really good to me and its really, really fun to play.

but im interested what hummingbirds normal list with exalted angels looks like because angel rocks:tongue:

Hummingbird TG

08-29-2008, 10:57 AM

@Electrolyze:

Normal List (this one is fun but I don't like it very much, I guess I just suck at playing it..)

Mana

4 Dark Ritual
4 Scrubland
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Swamp
1 Plains

26

Creatures

4 Dark Confidant
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Exalted Angel

11

Disruption

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
3 Extirpate

23

SIDEBOARD

1 Extirpate
4 Pithing Needle
4 Engineered Plague
4 Planar Void
2 Duress/Unknown

---

@ssilver:

I guess I may make a new thread for it, but I'm going to have to write a primer for that, right? So it may take some time. But in the meantime since it really is Deadguy Ale why not keep this in this thread? But then again about the deck I may not be the best person to start the thread since I don't test much and my results aren't really that conclusive...but I'll give it a shot anyway!

Anyway the current list I'm running:

4 B Scrubland
4 ON Bloodstained Mire
2 ON Windswept Heath
4 TE Wasteland
1 PLC Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 IN Swamp
1 TE Plains
1 SH Volrath's Stronghold
3 ON Polluted Delta

4 RAV Dark Confidant
3 10E Hypnotic Specter
3 ON Exalted Angel

3 MI Enlightened Tutor
4 B Swords to Plowshares
2 CHK Sensei's Divining Top
4 AP Vindicate
3 FE Hymn to Tourach
4 LRW Thoughtseize
2 7E Duress
1 FD Engineered Explosives
2 LG Moat
1 BOK Umezawa's Jitte
1 OPEN SLOT OPEN SLOT

SIDEBOARD

1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Moat
3 Engineered Plague
3 Extirpate
1 Planar Void
1 Runed Halo
1 Bitterblossom
2 Slots for Control Matchup -- Sinkhole??

^Above: Never again shall I copy+paste from MWS. XD 2 Tops are becuase they're really nuts with fetchlands and Tutors are shuffle effects anyway, and they save me life off Bob in the late game. And I never, never want to draw more than one Top. Hm, I might go up to 3 since I have a blank slot and few early plays though...

ssilver

08-29-2008, 01:06 PM

It seems more to me like a control type than the normal aggro LD + Hand destruction Deadguy Ale decks, but eh whatever. The only problems I run into is that I run out of gas, or can't stall until the fourth turn (critical to get angel/jitte going to regain life). Maybe an extra top will help that, as thats really the only reason to run fetchlands (more lifeloss that adds up) in the deck.

Hummingbird TG

08-30-2008, 01:19 AM

Can't stall until the fourth turn? Against what decks? Goblins? Thresh definitely can't kill you by turn 4, they're just getting started. Combo you have 9 discard spells to work with and a Hyppie to lock them out if you managed to substantially disrupt them early, though that still is a scary matchup.

EDIT: YAY 400th Post!

carnifex

08-30-2008, 06:19 PM

@ Hummingbird: maybe 1x Blossom in the mainboard to add to your enlightened tutor toolbox?

Hummingbird TG

08-31-2008, 01:15 AM

Hmm I can consider it...but it seems to be only useful against Control, and I hardly want to topdeck it... in other cases it needs Jitte to work out, but to get the Jitte (preboard), I would need to use another E Tutor as its a one-off; thus isn't Blossom a little too unreliable main?

Hummingbird TG

09-03-2008, 03:10 AM

Is Hoofprints of the Stag good? It's slow, but it's tutorable repeated threats against Landstill that aren't as inconsequential as 1/1s, and doesn't cost you life. But it's slow.

Valarne

09-03-2008, 04:15 AM

Is Hoofprints of the Stag good? It's slow, but it's tutorable repeated threats against Landstill that aren't as inconsequential as 1/1s, and doesn't cost you life. But it's slow.

I would think that it is to slow, without any extra drawing going on (Confidant ability not being a draw, obviously). And as a topdeck it is awful!

ImaBorgerman

09-10-2008, 05:23 AM

raharu

09-10-2008, 07:31 AM

is it just me whom realized there seems to be less and less people or no one pilots this deck in tournies anymore...?

Seems to me people tends to opt for Eva Green or Rock Guy variants more instead... :(

Imho, i think what makes B/W Confidant special is the land destruction route... no?
And I've personally taken Hummingbird's advice and replaced Nantuko shades with Exalted Angels and so far it seems to be quite good :) Though occasionally I'm still caught in a dilemma whether those angels should be just Tombstalkers instead.

Your thoughts?
A) Maybe it's the 'unique' LD route that's making DeagGuy less viable in the current metagame? :rooleyes:

B) You could always run both, I presume. I don't see a problem with taking the deck into a more control/ late game agressor playstyle of deck.

In what I've been working with it's entirel viable to drop LD and force a war of attrition. I don't really have a slot for angels right now (although I'm not exactly looking either), but I could see running both the Exalteds and the 'Stalkers in the near future, and I've already dropped LD from my list, unless you really want to count Vindicate.

Ghostfire45

10-11-2008, 11:08 PM

Any updates on this deck? What about Tidehollow Sculler?

Valarne

10-22-2008, 01:34 PM

Hummingbird TG

10-24-2008, 01:36 PM

Well, here is an update - or at least an input.

I use Mox Diamonds instead of chromes or rituals. The hidden feat in doing this is the EE's set for 3. Whether this mox overall is better than the chromes, I'm not sure about though, as I haven't tested chrome. I run a land count of 23 partially due to being able to play the mox regularly. List (not carved in stone though):
Lands:

4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Volraths Stronghold
1 Plains
5 Swamps

Kill:
3 Exalted Angel
2 Tombstalker
4 Dark Confidant
1 Shriekmaw

Disrupt/removal:
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Engineered Explosives

Other:
3 SDT.

SB:
3 Pithing Needle
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Helm of Obedience
3 ? (Maybe Engineered Plague?)

In general, I think that the couple of MD 1-offs are justified because of the large amount of SDT-shuffling that tend to come about. The single Shriekmaw is nice to be able to recycle through Volraths S. The singleton Helm in the side, is for the rogue-win, only brought in when the leylines go in, obviously.
I like the deck, but feel that it can be better, aimed at a versatile meta. Any ideas?

Mox Diamond might look nice on paper, but I've tried it before and I really don't like what it does. While it does give you one mana, and of any color (thereby fixing your mana), enabling EE for 3 and all, and costs 0, and thereby is an accelerant, the problem with Mox Diamond is this. It's supposed to take a Mana Source slot, but it isn't a mana Source, just an accelerant, unlike Chrome Mox or Dark Ritual. Unlike Chrome Mox or Dark Rit, Mox Diamond forces you to have an additional land in hand to discard, in order to produce mana; this means that you net no mana out of Mox Diamond, and that it just makes your mana come down a turn sooner. This is only effective if you have more than one land in hand at a time, AND at the same time have a Mox Diamond. Sounds way too conditional to me. Also, note that with two lands and a Dark Rit you can cast 4 Mana spells, two lands and a Chrome Mox 3 Mana spells, but two lands and a Mox Diamond only 2 Mana spells; in other words, Mox Diamond actually stifles your mana development, not develops it; not something you'd want in a mana card. And as an accelerant? Accelerants aren't something the deck has space for, frankly, in my opinion, since the slots are tight enough as it is (and the deck is inconsistent enough as it is).

Another issue is the converted mana cost of your deck. Which looks. Absolutely. Suicidal. Angel is bad enough, but with 3 Angel, 2 Tombstalker, 4 Thoguhtseize and 8 fetches (and a Shriekmaw), your Dark Confidants are going to be doing you a lot of damage. Now in the past we could say that sticking a Dark Confidant generally means game since the cards would pull us a victory generally...but cards recently have gotten a lot more powerful; and Dark Confidant isn't the for-all-and-end-all creature it once was; now landing a Bob means you still have to dig for answers and live long enough to land them (not landing or keeping around a Bob, however, is as good as not playing the Bob (or playing any other two mana removal magnet) -- and as Bob is the main feature of the deck, this is definitely not an option); and therefore Dark Confidant has weakened in power greatly in relation to the metagame (also one must note that with the introduction of better creatures, games of magic have gotten faster, and therefore we have less life to lose to Dark Confidant).

Which brings me to the next point I want to make (which is not about your deck, however, just this archetype in general): Dark Confidant is what makes this deck special. However, he has been less than impressive for me recently; we take too much damage for him to be able to draw many cards, and if he doesn't draw any he isn't very useful. Just drawing a few cards just doesn't cut it anymore, unlike in the past, as we need better cards to keep up with the likes of the better threats in the metagame (as well as the more consistent decks which do not repeatedly draw dead disruption when they need answers) -- and playing better threats to allow drawing fewer cards to work isn't an option -- as they all cost a lot (by this i refer to high impact cards like Tombstalker, Exalted Angel, and Moat, as examples, or Shriekmaw, as good utility). This thereby creates a sort of vicious cycle, and a deck based on a Dark Confidant engine (barring amazing tempo generators, which are not white, nor black (in fact, they are blue (FoW, CB, cantrips (which set up good draws for keeping up with consistent tempo)), and green (Goyf)) is left with a viability that is, in this metagame, at best questionable (if it was even viable in the first place).

What's everyone's thoughts on this issue?

Valarne

10-24-2008, 03:36 PM

@Hummingbird: Your thoughts on Chrome versus Diamond makes good sense. I'll test this for sure.

Lifeloss is actually rarely the biggest problem, as the angels very oftenly replenish my life. In tomorrows tourney I'll be trying 1 Runed Halo main, instead of the Shriekmaw though - considering that Shriekmaw in many cases will be targeting Goyf, and being a dead card with Geese, Noughts, Tombstalkers and Confidants - whereas the Halo (random as it is) can deal with the Ad Nauseam/Painter decks, or simply hold off one big stick.

Sidenote on Confidant: I try to wait him out if possible, and instead focus on Sinkholes, Hymns and Thoughtseizes. Thus aiming for getting the top online without losing to much life from Bob.

As you note, consistency is usually the problem. If the new TES/Nauseam decks find a firm dominant place, then maybe a modded Dead-guy can find his as well.

Hummingbird TG

10-25-2008, 04:06 AM

Lifeloss is actually rarely the biggest problem, as the angels very oftenly replenish my life. In tomorrows tourney I'll be trying 1 Runed Halo main, instead of the Shriekmaw though - considering that Shriekmaw in many cases will be targeting Goyf, and being a dead card with Geese, Noughts, Tombstalkers and Confidants - whereas the Halo (random as it is) can deal with the Ad Nauseam/Painter decks, or simply hold off one big stick.

Which actually assumes you'll get an Angel to stick or do damage. Seeing as Angel is so vulnerable to creature removal, that's not always possible (and unlike Confidant, Angel is actually a threat that's better than Goyf, therefore sticking an Angel alone should win you the game -- the problem is in cases where you don't get the Angel (Tombstalker isn't as spectacular as Angel))...

Valarne

10-25-2008, 11:41 AM

As above stated, I took Deadguy for a spin today. Changes from the list I posted a couple of posts earlier in the thread were:
Chrome Moxes instead of Mox Diamonds
Runed Halo instead of Shriekmaw
2 Hypnotic Specters and an Extirpate instead of Swamp, Swamp, Bloodstained Mire
Sideboard:
4 True Believers, 4 Engineered Plague, 1 Jotun Grunt, 3 Engineered Explosives, 3 Pithing Needle.

The tournament consisted of 26-28 players approx. My hands-down assessment of the meta was:
3-4 Ad Nauseam
1 Doomsday Combo
2 Ichorid
3-4 RGw GoyfSligh/Zoo
1 Survival
2-3 Stiflenought
1 Deadguy (me)
3-4 Non-goblin Tribal decks
2 Vial Goblins
1 Dragon Stompy
1 Burn/Counter
and some i didn't see, or forgot.

I went 4-1 in the swiss, won the quarter and lost the semi. 5-2 in all.
0-2 Ichorid
2-0 Dragon Stompy
2-0 Survival
2-1 Vial Goblins
2-0 Vial Goblins
--
2-1 RGw GoyfSligh/Zoo
0-2 RGw GoyfSligh/Zoo
The final was a mirror, and they split prizes.

From the side I enjoyed EE, EP and a bit of needle. Chrome Moxen were golden, thanks Hummingbird! The inclusion of Specters very nice as well.
SB Afterthoughts: Had I known that the newish RGw Zoo deck would have prevailed (fueled by Wild Nacatl, Lavamancers, Fanatics, Kird Apes, Goyf and 1cc burn) then Chalice of the Void would have been chosen instead of True Believer. The sideboard would then be, in this meta, really strong.

Hummingbird TG

10-26-2008, 04:06 PM

Valarne

10-26-2008, 06:57 PM

The one-of Extirpate seems random...what do you generally use it on? Your list seems nice though, I think I'll try it out... Congratulations on the Top 8, though. Sadly it wasn't enough players to qualify for a tournament for the DtB forum... Are you going to be writing a Tournament Report? XD

Thanks! I can't argue with 1 Extirpate being a bit random, but I felt that it would fit the empty spot better than the fourth STP for instance, since I was expecting TES/ANT and Ichorid, were I'm almost dead in the water Game 1. The Vindicate can serve as creature-removal in a tight spot (preferably LD), so I'm not too concerned with that. I never got to use the Extirpate really, other than to imprint on the Mox - but it did that just fine:). The single Engineered Explosives was great. It really felt good having it, and several times - blowing it up. I'll just do a superficial report here - I sadly don't have the time the next couple of days for in-depth writing.
Rd 1: Ichorid.
G1: On my heels, never got a chance. Discard and LD spells useless. Sitting duck!
G2: I actually thought I had this one - I removed some of his Bridges, and his few lands, and I was pounding several times with my E. Angel. Then he manages to dread return a Simic Sky Swallower...

Rd 2: Dragon Stompy.
G1: He mulls to five, and I easily decimate his few landdrops, while securing a strong board. Angel ftw.
G2: Again I pound his first lands and turn 1 Magus of the Moon (thanks Chrome Mox) - and continue domination, helped by him drawing to few lands. Angel ftw.

Rd 3: Survival.
G1: It seems pretty 50/50 on the board, exchanging Bobs and stuff. But his life steadily goes down, and it ends faster than I had feared. His survival gets online too late, btw.
G2: I put on the early pressure with 1st turn Mox and stuff (did that in many games). Clear two birds (EE) and two nonbasics in one turn - easy from then on.

Rd 4: Vial Goblins.
G1: I'm pretty screwed, pretty fast.
G2: Engineered Plague makes it much easier.
G3: ----"----- ( I think I had two of these bad boys in one of the games.)

Rd 5: Vial Goblins.
Rd 1: Amazingly I won this preboard dreaded Matchup. He draws a lot of Rishadan ports, so I can single out his few mountains and Vials with Sinkhole/Vindicate. Wonderful.
Rd 2: I just had to make sure that there would be Engineered Plague in the starting hand. There were two!

Quarters: RGw GoyfSligh/Zoo.
G1: On my heels. Not too happy about all his threats. Can't do much either. A brave young Tombstalker tries to fend off the inevitable. No such luck.
G2: Tight, but I manage to weasel my way out thanks to EE and Angel ftw. Landdestruction paved the way though.
G3: Much the same as G2. Tight but again Landdestruction minimized the amount of threats, so EE and Angel could seal the deal.

Semi: Again RGw GoyfSligh/Zoo.
G1: Not a chance for me.
G2: Sadly my land/mox drop stopped at two before I could sweep his horde with EE. Could have been won...

I hope this brief report is better than nothing.

Cheers!

(By the way - I'm gonna try and go for the fourth Angel in place of one of the Tombstalkers. She's almost always prefered, I think. And concerning randomness - I think that the inclusion of Chrome Mox makes one-offs/few-offs much more ok, seeing as it presents you with a choice which card to imprint. If you have a bit more of a versatile deck than just 4-offs, then that choice becomes more decisive. Useless cards have a place were they are needed! Not taking this to the extreme, only concerning a few versatile silverbullets, such as Extirpate, Jotun Grunt, Runed Halo and so on.

Valarne

10-26-2008, 07:41 PM

Another thing.

I haven't figured out what strategy, especially sideboardwise, that can handle Thresh. What is your thoughts on this? I guess that the ones with CounterTop might become prevalent, in response to TES/ANT. We can use UG Thresh for common reference - Goyf, Geese, CounterTop, FoW, Daze, Stifle main perhaps, etc.

Looking forward!

Hummingbird TG

10-26-2008, 10:13 PM

My idea is to just stick an Exalted Angel. They don't have much that deal with Exalted Angels -- the fear is just that they kill her. Now against UG we have less of a problem than, say, UGw, UGb, or even UGr, as UG can't kill an Angel except with Jitte; however the idea is generally that if you can get an Exalted Angel to sweep the board, she will probably singlehandedly dominate it (able to race two 4/5 Goyfs or one bigger Goyf ftw); and the lifegain buys us turns to draw answers to kill them with (or another Angel!) Note that CB doesn't counter Angels, either.

I still think we have a horrible Thresh matchup. Most builds with some form of removal whatsoever (e.g. UGw and it's Swords) can destroy us simply by countering whatever we have that is relevant, then killing whatever that's left. It seems to be a sad fact that we just lose to blue-based tempo decks, as they have more Free-effects than us (and theirs are more powerful that that Black would ever have -- Counter a Spell for a card or bouncing an Island, compared to the best black free-spell - which does what? Kill a nonblack guy for 4 life?) and thus generate more tempo than us and reach a state whereby they have beatz and boardcontrol faster...

EDIT: Nice report, btw. Thanks! I enjoyed reading it.

Valarne

10-27-2008, 04:28 AM

Aboroth

11-03-2008, 03:59 AM

..I'll report after the German Legacy Championships.
Sorry, no time for German Legacy Champs, because my daughter was born. :smile:

Now I took the time to play the "Gaming, Etc. Revised Dual-Constructed" Tournament at PT Berlin.

My list during tournament:

Dark Weenie (60)
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
3 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Volrath’s Stronghold (2 wins)
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
1 Bloodstained Mire

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Æther Vial
4 Dark Confidant
1 Figure of Destiny (i had only 1 :mad: )
4 Serra Avenger
4 Duress
3 Vindicate
3 Silver Knight
3 Mother of Runes
3 Spectral Lynx
3 Jötun Grunt
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
2 Ajani Goldmane (Never Seen.)

Sideboard (15)

4 Tidehollow Sculler (Next time maindeck.)
3 Armageddon
3 Extirpate
3 Disenchant
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Vindicate

______________

Matchups
UWB Fish Draw
Sui Black Win
Eva Green Win
UGR Threshold Win
Armageddon Stax Win
Dreaded Fish? Lost
UW Landstill Win
Merfolk Win