[Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

[Hummingbird TG]

Sorry, no time for German Legacy Champs, because my daughter was born. :smile:


Now I took the time to play the "Gaming, Etc. Revised Dual-Constructed" Tournament at PT Berlin.

My list during tournament:

Dark Weenie (60)
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
3 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Volrath’s Stronghold (2 wins)
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
1 Bloodstained Mire

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Æther Vial
4 Dark Confidant
1 Figure of Destiny (i had only 1 :mad: )
4 Serra Avenger
4 Duress
3 Vindicate
3 Silver Knight
3 Mother of Runes
3 Spectral Lynx
3 Jötun Grunt
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
2 Ajani Goldmane (Never Seen.)

Sideboard (15)

4 Tidehollow Sculler (Next time maindeck.)
3 Armageddon
3 Extirpate
3 Disenchant
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Vindicate

______________

Matchups
UWB Fish Draw
Sui Black Win
Eva Green Win
UGR Threshold Win
Armageddon Stax Win
Dreaded Fish? Lost
UW Landstill Win
Merfolk Win

Congratulations on your daughter!

About the deck though, you may want to go through a few card choices which seem slightly suspect, and perhaps a tournament report to give us an idea how the deck works? For one, I'm not sure what Ajani does in there (I know you said you never saw them, but what was your original intention for them?), nor how this wins other than by Jitte advantage...

Looking forward to a reply!

--Regards,

HummingbirdTG

[Aboroth]

@Hummingbird: Sorry, swaddling our baby is atm more important than writing a detailed report. :wink: But you're right, playing ajani was only a test without any results. And I'm convinced that it doesnt work. The effects are not good enough for 4 mana. But actually I think about another Planeswalker: Elspeth, Knight-Errant... My intention with ajani was to use life and the "overrun effect" against aggro and the avatar effect against control.

In the majority of cases you dont need a jitte. 2 Bears ore one Avenger/grunt are enough.

Which card choices seem suspect to you? Please give reasons.

[raharu]

@Hummingbird: Sorry, swaddling our baby is atm more important than writing a detailed report. :wink: But you're right, playing ajani was only a test without any results. And I'm convinced that it doesnt work. The effects are not good enough for 4 mana. But actually I think about another Planeswalker: Elspeth, Knight-Errant... My intention with ajani was to use life and the "overrun effect" against aggro and the avatar effect against control.

In the majority of cases you dont need a jitte. 2 Bears ore one Avenger/grunt are enough.

Which card choices seem suspect to you? Please give reasons.
I've always been happy to see Ajani when I've run it. Making Confidants and Mothers into actual threats is always nice. Personally, from that list I'd consider something like this:

-1 Avenger, +1 Mother of Runes (I could never consider playing less than 4. MoR just makes things happen, and the 4th Avenger seems like it could clog your opening hands a lot.)
-3 Silver Knights, -1 Figure of Destiny/ Lynx, +4 Tidehollow Sculler (more disruption can't possibly be a bad thing, with 2/2s it generally doesn't matter if they have first strike, as they typically end up blocking larger creatures, and Knight's better Jitte-wielding is offset by the fact that if you have an active Jitte, it's going to be good wherever you put it. Personally, I'd keep the Lynx and drop the Figure, but I presume that's a personal/ meta call).

Outside of that, I really like the list and if I get back to testing the BW confidant agro archetype I'll prolly start from your list.

[Aboroth]

raharu: Note, you cant have enough avenger. With vial it comes earlier into play. And its one of the most effective creatures in this deck.

I played Silver Knight because of Gobbos. But today I think, I dont need them.

4 Mothers would clog my hand. Its a creature to support the others, but it doesnt kill my opponents. 3 are enough.

Now I nhave this List:

4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
3 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Volrath’s Stronghold (2 wins)
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
1 Bloodstained Mire

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Æther Vial
4 Dark Confidant
4 Serra Avenger
4 Duress
3 Figure of Destiny
3 Vindicate
3 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Mother of Runes
3 Spectral Lynx
3 Jötun Grunt
2 Umezawa’s Jitte

Sideboard (15)

3 Armageddon
3 Extirpate
3 Disenchant
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Vindicate

There are 4 cards missing in SB. Any ideas?

[ebbitten]

plague?

[Blitzbold]

I would strongly consider Cabal Therapy to strengthen your combo-matchup. Plague might be good, but you have to know for yourself which tribal you're afraid about.

Disenchant seems to be a bit old-school, but there aren't very many alternatives. And why don't you play the 4th Vindicate MD?

[Hummingbird TG]

@Hummingbird: Sorry, swaddling our baby is atm more important than writing a detailed report. :wink: But you're right, playing ajani was only a test without any results. And I'm convinced that it doesnt work. The effects are not good enough for 4 mana. But actually I think about another Planeswalker: Elspeth, Knight-Errant... My intention with ajani was to use life and the "overrun effect" against aggro and the avatar effect against control.

In the majority of cases you dont need a jitte. 2 Bears ore one Avenger/grunt are enough.

Which card choices seem suspect to you? Please give reasons.

Well, first, as you mentioned, Ajani. But more importantly I think Figure of Destiny (where'd you get the mana for it to make it good?), 3 Jotun Grunt main (I'm not sure if you have enough graveyard action to feed him...). Also, the bears like Spectral Lynx and Silver Knight seem only good with Jitte (especially Spectral Lynx; else all he is is a wall for Goyf...)

I also don't understand the Duress over Thoughtseize. Is there any special metagame reason or other reason for this?

[Aboroth]

@blitzbold: Plague is an idea. Elves are comming back.^^
I'll never miss disenchant. You need instant speed (stick). And vindicate is too slow for affinity or stiflenought.
The 4th vindicate is in the most cases too expensive for this manabase. Only against slower decks it makes sense.
I like cabal therapy, but duress is more useful in my strategy.
CU @ Rostock next time?

@hummingbird: Figure of Destiny bashed for victory 8/8 against armageddon stax. Earlier I played Savannah Lions and Isamaru. You cant compare them with FoD. Its even better. In Lategame you have 3 white Mana.

3 Jotun Grunt main (I'm not sure if you have enough graveyard action to feed him...) No, but my opponents. Its a metachoice. Over 30% in Germany are Threshold.

Spectral Lynx blocks mongoose and goyf and runs through them and walls. Also the regeneration works well against burn and Deed.

Silver Knight was matchwinner against gobbos. But today there are not much gobbos.

[Tao]

I think this is the wrong thread for the discussion. B/w Deadguy is a Sinkhole/Hymn/Ritual - disruption based heavy black deck with a light W splash for Vindicate and maybe Swords. The deck you are discussing is a White Weenie deck with a B Splash for Confidant and a bit disruption. Don't get me wrong, I am not criticiuzing the lists - I just think they do belong in a different thread.

What do you think about the White Version (compared to Eva Green) in the current Meta? Nearly all decks in the Meta play with Tarmo/Stalker/Dreadnought so StoP and Vindicate are good solutions.

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [R] Scrubland
1 [GP] Godless Shrine
4 [TE] Wasteland
6 [R] Swamp (1)

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [TO] Nantuko Shade
3 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
4 [MI] Dark Ritual
4 [A] Sinkhole
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (4)
4 [AP] Vindicate
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
3 [4E] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 [CS] Jotun Grunt

[rsaunder]

The problem with the white version compared to the green one is goyf. Yes, STP and vindicate are amazing, but goyf is just so nuts that it's worth splashing green in a deck like this for him. Any deck that starts off:

4 goyf
4 vindicate
4 STP

Will probably win games.

The other problem is confidant. Tombstalker is amazing, and prevents you from running your him as your draw engine. Adding SDT doesnt fix the problem, I know because I've tried. SDT is a tempo black hole in a tempo deck like this, as is Bob.

[raharu]

The other problem is confidant. Tombstalker is amazing, and prevents you from running your him as your draw engine. Adding SDT doesnt fix the problem, I know because I've tried. SDT is a tempo black hole in a tempo deck like this, as is Bob.

That's explicitly a matter of opinion.

[Tao]

The problem with the white version compared to the green one is goyf. Yes, STP and vindicate are amazing, but goyf is just so nuts that it's worth splashing green in a deck like this for him. Any deck that starts off:

4 goyf
4 vindicate
4 STP


I think making this deck 3-colored has been proven impossible by now. Eva Green would be improved by StoP and Vindicate and this would be improved by Tarmo but the deck concept requires 4 Wasteland which makes splashing 2 colors too unconsistent.



The other problem is confidant. Tombstalker is amazing, and prevents you from running your him as your draw engine. Adding SDT doesnt fix the problem, I know because I've tried. SDT is a tempo black hole in a tempo deck like this, as is Bob.

There is no big problem with Stalker and Confi. The average mana cost is even with Stalker pretty low and chances that you reveal one without Top are very slim and even that won't lose immediately (though it is definetely not good).
I know that SDT is bad for the tempo and I can understand that some people will cut it. But on the other hand it synergizes with the Resource Denial because you often get both players into Top deck mode and Top keeps the pain taken from Bob in check. Top can also change dead draws in midgame like Discard or LD into the the disruption or threat you need.
Another recent advantage of the BW version is being immune against Snuff Out which sees more and more play.

[Whit3 Ghost]

I think this is the wrong thread for the discussion. B/w Deadguy is a Sinkhole/Hymn/Ritual - disruption based heavy black deck with a light W splash for Vindicate and maybe Swords. The deck you are discussing is a White Weenie deck with a B Splash for Confidant and a bit disruption. Don't get me wrong, I am not criticiuzing the lists - I just think they do belong in a different thread.

What do you think about the White Version (compared to Eva Green) in the current Meta? Nearly all decks in the Meta play with Tarmo/Stalker/Dreadnought so StoP and Vindicate are good solutions.

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [R] Scrubland
1 [GP] Godless Shrine
4 [TE] Wasteland
6 [R] Swamp (1)

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [TO] Nantuko Shade
3 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
4 [MI] Dark Ritual
4 [A] Sinkhole
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (4)
4 [AP] Vindicate
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
3 [4E] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 [CS] Jotun Grunt
This is pretty much what I was going with with my last crack at deadguy as well. However, I made the changes of
-1 Land
-3 Top

+1 Swords
+3 Smallpox

Top was underwhelming when I was testing it a while ago and the additional utility brought by Smallpox has been very nice.

[raharu]

Sidenote: Deadguy ale isn't a tempo deck, it's a resource denial deck and a board control deck. Calling it tempo is incorrect, so saying that SDT is bad for tempo is irrelevant because the deck isn't trying to produce tempo. SDT is strong in the late game where you're having issues finding what you need to maintain board position, or you need to dig for a threat, or removal, and giving you access to resources 3 turns away, on top of letting you see 6 cards with a shuffle effect (that's one tenth of your starting deck count, in case you somehow think 6 cards isn't a fuckton of cards) is a huge boon to a deck such as this.

[Aboroth]

I think this is the wrong thread for the discussion. B/w Deadguy is a Sinkhole/Hymn/Ritual - disruption based heavy black deck with a light W splash for Vindicate and maybe Swords. The deck you are discussing is a White Weenie deck with a B Splash for Confidant and a bit disruption. Don't get me wrong, I am not criticiuzing the lists - I just think they do belong in a different thread.
It's OK. You're absolutly right. But thanks for your input.^^

I moved to this Thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10981&page=2&highlight=weenie)

[ToxicToast]

So, Tidehollow Sculler. Amazing or what? The list I've been working with is much more similar to the earlier builds that were heavy black and heavier resource denial instead of the more modern white heavy aggro-ish builds.

I think I need help with the sideboard, as it stands it's kind of weak and I never know what to board out.

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [R] Scrubland
7 [SHM] Swamp (1)

// Creatures
4 [CS] Jotun Grunt
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [ALA] Tidehollow Sculler
4 [10E] Hypnotic Specter

// Spells
4 [CST] Dark Ritual
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [AT] Hymn to Tourach
4 [U] Sinkhole
4 [AP] Vindicate
3 [CST] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [TSB] Disenchant
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

[Valarne]

So, Tidehollow Sculler. Amazing or what? The list I've been working with is much more similar to the earlier builds that were heavy black and heavier resource denial instead of the more modern white heavy aggro-ish builds.

I think I need help with the sideboard, as it stands it's kind of weak and I never know what to board out.

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [R] Scrubland
7 [SHM] Swamp (1)

// Creatures
4 [CS] Jotun Grunt
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [ALA] Tidehollow Sculler
4 [10E] Hypnotic Specter

// Spells
4 [CST] Dark Ritual
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [AT] Hymn to Tourach
4 [U] Sinkhole
4 [AP] Vindicate
3 [CST] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [TSB] Disenchant
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

Is your creature setup working for you? I would think that, besides Confidant, all your beaters are a bit conditional. I run a couple of Specters, Scullers, playsets of Exalted Angels and Confidants (and 1 Tombstalker). Angels for good beats.
Sideboard: I understand Jitte, since you're not running Angel, needing to consider lifegain. Leyline and Plague are good all-round answers as well.
Disenchant I'm not convinced about though. For what use?
I use Engineered Explosives, as an extra SB-permanent-removal besides Vindicate, I find it much more useful.

Siding out: This is hard to answer. Besides the games where we have obviously bad cards, such as discard against Ichorid, then I think it can be useful thinking through your decks gameplan, against your opponents. Early disrupting power that we do have, shouldnt be compromised in sideboarding, if it theoretically damages the opponent. Only insert really key sideboard cards, and remove only cards that either aren't central in your own strategy, or are unimportant in the match-up.

[rsaunder]

Sidenote: Deadguy ale isn't a tempo deck, it's a resource denial deck and a board control deck. Calling it tempo is incorrect, so saying that SDT is bad for tempo is irrelevant because the deck isn't trying to produce tempo. SDT is strong in the late game where you're having issues finding what you need to maintain board position, or you need to dig for a threat, or removal, and giving you access to resources 3 turns away, on top of letting you see 6 cards with a shuffle effect (that's one tenth of your starting deck count, in case you somehow think 6 cards isn't a fuckton of cards) is a huge boon to a deck such as this.Quite honestly, I don't think classic resource denial works now. Destroying lands and hands isn't all that effective since almost every deck in the format runs enough cantrips to use your discard as simply tempo against you and fetchlands to play around sinkhole. This deck likes to disrupt its opponent enough to land a creature or two and then remove the opponent's creatures and try to prevent them from stabilizing. If this isn't how the deck works anymore I guess it's been a while, but to me that's tempo in its most basic form.

If the deck was really purely resource denial like that, I'd suggest smokestack and crucible of worlds.

[Hummingbird TG]

@Valarne, what's your latest list? The previous one posted don't use Tidehollow Scullers, it seems...are they useful? It seems to me that the opponent can just kill them and instantly they have their best card back, so it's just a removal magnet, and you can hardly even use it to block for fear it dies and you give your opponent back their card...

@ToxicToast: Do you have a problem hitting white mana with so many sources that only produce black (especially against an opponent playing Wasteland to deter fetching Scrubland), seeing as you run 8 creatures which need white, 4 of which want to come out early, and total of 15 cards white? (If so, consider white fetches and a single plains?)

[Valarne]

@Valarne, what's your latest list? The previous one posted don't use Tidehollow Scullers, it seems...are they useful? It seems to me that the opponent can just kill them and instantly they have their best card back, so it's just a removal magnet, and you can hardly even use it to block for fear it dies and you give your opponent back their card...

@ToxicToast: Do you have a problem hitting white mana with so many sources that only produce black (especially against an opponent playing Wasteland to deter fetching Scrubland), seeing as you run 8 creatures which need white, 4 of which want to come out early, and total of 15 cards white? (If so, consider white fetches and a single plains?)

Hi Hummingbird. Well I'm tweaking in different ways these days. Trying to tune-up before going to an approx 100 people tournament next weekend. I'm expecting a lot of ANT, 3c Zoo/Sligh, StifleNought and a decent amount of Thresh, Ichorid and Goblins, as they always seem to show up. Besides that, I'm kinda anticipating a lot of semi-rogue stuff and burn, so in short I want to be maindeck prepared for stuff that usually hurts; combo, swarms of critters and Thresh. StifleNought I usually have spot-removal enough for, as it is. Sideboard is right now:
4 Chalice, 4 Engineered Plague (these ones pretty much carved in stone)
2 Relic of Progenitus, 2 Pithing Needle, 2 Engineered Explosives
1 Extirpate (!)

Maindeck notes: I tested Sculler for some weeks, but because of my high artifact-count in the SB, I became a bit tired of the dissynergy between Chrome Mox and Sculler. I do believe it can be viable though. Cut for now. This leads to my current, and not-so-tested oldschool tech of running 3 Gerrards Verdict. These are thought of as Mox fodder early-game, and midgame forcing opponent to go topdeckmode, plus with these as manafix, I allow myself to run 17 lands. I think its gonna be good. I'm trying out no Tombstalker at all, and instead 2 Jotun Grunt for beats alongside the playset of Angels, trying to improve Thresh MU, and lowering the CC of the deck, so that SDT might be boarded out in some matches, with less peril. Last tweak-in-progress: Running 2 Engineered Explosives main - this is to ward of hordes especially. Not sure about 1 or 2 though. I tested 1 and 2 Extirpate main-deck, with default use as taking fetches and duals. I am unsure wether I should test more. What is your experience with this? The 1 Extirpate in the SB is gonna be either 2 or 0, dont know yet.

List:
4 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
1 Volraths Stronghold
1 Swamp
1 Plains

4 Exalted Angel
4 Dark Confidant
2 Hypnotic Specter
2 Jotun Grunt

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Gerrards Verdict
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Senseis Divining Top
4 Chrome Mox
2 Engineered Explosives

[raharu]

About the Extirpates in the main: I would only run them in the main if you think that you're going to have considerable problems against control and you want to have stronger games against them. Considering that you didn't mention any control, you don't really want Extirpate for Ichorid, and you ought to have a strong enough threshold match without them, I'd consider not playing them in the main, or at all. Personally, I'd take those two slots and play 2x Relics in the main, because it neuters grave-based strategies, makes Crucible of Worlds significantly weaker, if not useless, in the control match (in regards to Landstill), and give you a sliver of hope against Ichorid G1, while allowing you to play more graveyard hate in the sideboard. I would suggest Yixlid Jailer or Crypts if you're doing it exclusively for Ichorid, or more Relics, or another Needle and something else, most likely more grave-hate. I would play a sideboard like this, were I to put 2x Relics in the main:


2x Something (I don't like EE, but it's fringe hate for Ichorid, so... go ahead? Nerfs CB as well)
2x Pithing Needle
3x Crypt
4x Chalice
4x Plague (are you certain that you wouldn't want Jitte/ Ghostly Prison/ Ajani (FOR THE LOVE OF GOD EVERYONE PLAYING MORE THAN 12 CREATURES TEST THIS) in these slots, considering that Plague is just about only good against Goblins, where your change from Tombstalker* to Grunts makes the deck weaker against agro in general anyway, while Jitte is additional lifegain to negate Confidant's lifeloss, makes your creatures significantly larger after the first activation, and, on a winmore/ fringe note, makes an Angel swing a 16 point life total differential. Or just Prison, because it gives you time to get an Angel and have it still be relevant).

Continuing my ramblings in stream-of-thought format, about the aggro match: Why wouldn't you play 4 Swords to Plowshares? Seriously, you're trying to better the aggro match and you're playing only 3 Swords to Plowshares? It's mitigated by the presence of a playset of Vindicate, but I would certainly take out one of the 2x discard spells (Hymn or Verdict) for the 4th StP, and possibly consider taking two more out for 2x Smother/ Shriekmaw (although the 5cc of Shriekmaw makes me sad), considering that discard will become dead in the lategame, and 10x spot removal that you can definitely cast on a reliable basis (referring to the presence of basics and Chrome Moxen) will put the brakes on agro fairly fast, even in the face of manabase disruption, or, at least leave them with a Kird Ape or whatever that is either easily blocked + killed, or ignored.

Well, hopefully that helped.

@rsaunder: Well, initially the deck was straight resource denial. It worked because decks were more reliant on lands and card advantage, so when you could out-land and out-draw them, you would most likely win (note the use of the past tense). That's what the deck did. It would deny resources to the opponent for an extended period of time, and crush their skull after a while with a Xbox Heug Nantuko Shade, or 'burn' them out with Cursed Scroll after cleaning up the board. Since then, the decks have become significantly more threat heavy (compare the current threat base of the contemporary builds to the threat base of yore, and you'll see what I mean. 4 Angels and 2 Grunts in Valarne's list, and 4 Shades and 3 Tombstalkers in Tao's list, to the 3 Shades of the initial concept and it's obvious) or taken in entirely different directions (for example, Aboroth's Death&Taxes/ Bunnies/ 'modern' Deadguy Ale Hybrid, and Anti-American/ Citrus God's Bunnies-esque lists from the Goblins era) and less concerned with denying resources than with keeping the playing field tipped in their direction, or at least un-leveled, than keeping the opponent off of anything significant, because decks have become less Card Advantage-centric, and more bomb-heavy and cantrip-heavy, so while card advantage will win games, there are times where you'll be burnt out, and they'll be burnt out, and you're ahead because of Confidant, but you're still top-decking because you have to play 2 spells a turn to keep them locked out, and then a enormous DoJ, or a Nimble Mongoose, or a resolved Haunting Echoes, or a Morphling or some such other stupid shit resolves and you're left looking at a Sinkhole and a Chrome Mox from your Confidant + natural draw going "wtf is this shit", and it's because resource denial has effectively been negated as a strategy.

You have to deny the opponent a relevant amount of a relevant resource and advance your board in a relevant fashion at the same time (because relevance is the key factor of this format). The deck 'became' tempo because it needed to operate in a smaller window of time. At the moment, the window is too small for it to effectively operate in, which is why this deck, that was once so prolific, is now underplayed. Sinkhole, Vindicate, Wasteland, Thoughtseize, and Hymn with a slow-to-start clock pale in comparison to Sinkhole, Stifle, Wasteland, Thoughtseize, Force of Will and Daze with the two best and fastest threats in the game (outside of Tendrils/ other storm cards and Painter's Servant + Grindstone), but that's mostly because the first set of control cards is slower, by trips and falls, than the other at doing the exact same thing. That, and it's hard to multi task when all of your spells cost mana. Deadguy Ale is like Suicide, but with slower threats, i.e. less effective. To say that Deadguy Ale is Tempo is effectively admitting that it has seceded it's role as a relevant metagame force to fasted decks with essentially the same game-plan. Personally, I really don't think it's tempo because of that (since Deadguy Ale is obviously something that people prepare for if they know it's in the meta, and it still does well, if not excellent, when it is played), but that it obviously fills a different niche.

[Ectoplasm]

Hello :) I'm pretty newbie when it comes to this deck, and I was wondering some things. First of all: What's the difference between deadguy ale and Pikula? Second, why doesn't deadguy ale run Tombstalker?

Thanks in advance!

[raharu]

Hello :) I'm pretty newbie when it comes to this deck, and I was wondering some things. First of all: What's the difference between deadguy ale and Pikula? Second, why doesn't deadguy ale run Tombstalker?

Thanks in advance!
Deadguy Ale and Pikula are, to my knowledge, the same thing, and some decks are, in fact, doing experiments with Tombstalker, but the reason it hasn't gained more momentum is because of the negative synergy with Dark Confidant, namely the chance of revealing Tombstalker with Confidant, which, while it is a fringe chance, some people are still concerned about.

[Ectoplasm]

That makes sense, thanks.

[Tao]

When Chris Pikula finished 2nd on the first Legacy GP
a) Pikula called the deck "Deadguy Ale/A Homebrew" - so there is no difference between deadguy and Pikula and
b) Tombstalker was not printed so he couldn't run it. I think Tombstalker does belong in Deadguy Ale without a doubt as you can see here:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=291872&postcount=1509

[Ectoplasm]

Pretty cool, running SDT seems like a good way to avoid taking 8 to the face with bob :)
Deadguy Ale seems like a pretty cool deck, I'm looking for a new deck to build and play besides my aggroloam and goblins. So far I'm caught up between landstill, Eva Green and Deadguy Ale.

Any reasons why I should pick Deadguy Ale over Eva Green as my next deck?

[Valarne]

@Raharu: Good idea to put RoP in the main. I'm gonna try just 1 out for starters(instead of 1 GV), as I'm not too happy having potential dead cards main. Then again it cantrips! Great thing.
Engineered Plague is actually tremendous in a lot of ways. Goblins it always mashes completely, otherwise unwinnable matchup almost. But any tribe, and I always seem to meet some, are either neutralized or killed by the plague. But it also comes in handy in unforeseen ways, when facing the odd deck, using some key toughness 1 critter. It also goes in against Ichorid, not optimal but quite ok still, either taking out Ichorid himself, Narcomoebas or Zombies, in that order. Ghostly Prison could be cool - I'll certainly give it thought. Jitte I cant see even testing, as Angels provide lifegain, and I only run 12 critters. Ajani would require some beats active before he would be stellar, right? Again a problem with only 12 beaters. The fourth Sword would go in instead of an EE, but against 3c Zoo especially, I'd rather have EE, plus it opens up the SB a bit. Between the 3 STP and Vindicates, I rarely feel in need of more spot-removal. The maindeckproposal of Relic is almost this though, seeing as Goyf is still dominating the meta.

When I play Deadguy - it feels like early-game control. When it works, I start of with turn 1 discard, turn 2 more discard or LD, maybe the same and removal turn 3. Maybe a Confidant, and an Angel the next turn. When I win, its usually sealed in the early midgame. Tempo not at all, and not heavy control either. Aggro-control in its own permanent-removing way.

Tombstalker: I've been playing a couple of these main a lot, but I always found that I rather would have had an Angel - because this deck often takes a bit of a beating before it starts to attack. Angel can make you go the distance, even though the opponent has a couple of bears that swing at you. Thanks to Hummingbird for emphasizing Angels value, by the way!

[raharu]

On Ajani: It doesn't require active beaters to be effective in certain matches, although it certainly is nice to have blockers for it in the agro match-up. Personally I've never been unsatisfied with it in most matches outside of combo, because it either makes whatever you have on board into a serious threat and gives you blockers for the turn (second ability), or lets you gain some life to mitigate whatever pressure the opponent is applying (first ability). It isn't that hard to sustain (although it would become much harder in your build. Considering the threat base, I 100% would not drop Ajani until I had a non-Confidant creature on the field [lulz, almost said unConfidant]}). It's a monster against control, makes the threshold matchup easier, and in long-winded games, it's nice to be able to get to far ahead on life that what they do has incredibly limited relevance, and then drop a giant dick with teeth/ avatar token and just cave skull. Then again, without more creatures... Not so good. Personally, I forsake the Land Destruction route to add more discard and threats. Something like 8 spot removal, 8-10 discard, 16-18 creatures, some number of Ajani, Jitte, and SDT. I liked it a bit better and it made threshold cry. Not the best selling point, but I'm not exactly selling anything, am I? :laugh:

Anyway, has anyone thought about testing Runed Halo? All things considered, it sounds pretty sick. It's good against agro, combo, control, well... everything. Thoughts?

[rsaunder]

@raharu: I agree with your assesments of the deck, 100%, although I don't remember the last time a version that played out like you're describing top8'd anything meaningful. I guess my question at this point would be whether or not the deck needs a complete re-working due to this change. It cannot play the tempo game with Team America and loses the sui role to Eva all day long. So this leaves resource-denial-as control as the deck's only niche? Sounds like stax, quite honestly.

What would be the best way to make this into more of a long-term board control deck? As much as I mentioned them in jest before, crucible and smokestack fill that role very nicely. They aren't tempo in any sense of the word, just inevitability personified (card-sonified?).

I don't think this will go anywhere, but it's an interesting thought exercise.

Or hell, I might just be dead wrong and the versions that are being worked on are far more effective than I give them credit for.

[raharu]

@raharu: I agree with your assesments of the deck, 100%, although I don't remember the last time a version that played out like you're describing top8'd anything meaningful. I guess my question at this point would be whether or not the deck needs a complete re-working due to this change. It cannot play the tempo game with Team America and loses the sui role to Eva all day long. So this leaves resource-denial-as control as the deck's only niche? Sounds like stax, quite honestly.

What would be the best way to make this into more of a long-term board control deck? As much as I mentioned them in jest before, crucible and smokestack fill that role very nicely. They aren't tempo in any sense of the word, just inevitability personified (card-sonified?).

I don't think this will go anywhere, but it's an interesting thought exercise.

Or hell, I might just be dead wrong and the versions that are being worked on are far more effective than I give them credit for.

Well, I don't really think that resource-denial is the best direction either, and I really dislike a Staxxx approach with Smokestacks. I've really liked the list I was playing (before I dropped it), but I've never got to play it in a tournament for lack of said tournaments. I presume it'd be nice to post the list:

Mana: 18
Windswept Heath x4
Bloodstained Mire x4
Scrubland x4
Swamp x3
Plains x3

Creatures: 18
Mother of Runes x4
Isamaru, Hound of Konda/ Ashling, the Extinguisher/ Spectral Lynx** x2
Jotun Grunt x2 (this most likely should be replaced)
Dark Confidant x4
Serra Avenger x3
Tomstalker x3

Artifacts: 6
Sensei’s Divining Top x3
Jitte x3

Planeswalkers: 2
Ajani Goldmane x2 (if you’re playing white and creatures you HAVE TO PLAY THIS. I’m not even kidding, it just wins all over the place. Try it).

Disruption: 8
Thoughtseize x4
Cabal Therapy x4 (this should most likely be something else. I was experimenting with -2 Therapy, -2 Free creature slot, +4 Gerard's Verdict, and it was nice)

Removal: 8
Swords to Plowshares x4
Vindicate x4

In retrospective, it'd be a good idea to make revisions such as these:

-2 Cabal Therapy, -2 Grunt, +4 Gerard's Verdict: personally, I think that Grunt is worse than Tombstalker, and Tombstalker and Grunt have negative synergy, so I'll keep Grunt and replace it with more disruption. I'm thinking another -2 Cabal Therapy and +2 Duress/ Runed Halo, but, well... Eh. Cabal Therapy should definitely be something else, though.

-2 variable creature slots, +2 Runed Halo. Those creatures are kinda weak, and Halo is strong in a number of matches. It's lame that there are only a few aggressive creatures left, but Halo might be good. It'd be nice to have more beaters, though. Perhaps -4 Verdicts, +4 Tidehollow Scullers, needs testing.

And that's about it. I'm not really sure what to say it's role is, it just plays the one that the Opposing deck doesn't (as in, "Who's the Beatdown?").

[Hummingbird TG]

If you play Exalted Angel (which you really *should* be playing, and the only reason to not play it is that it costs 2 White mana, which Ajani coincidentally also happens to cost), there is no real reason to play Ajani. What slots does he go in? If not Angel's, you risk playing too much white. Or too much threats. (In which case, you're in the wrong thread, sir.) If you are, you ought to rethink Angel vs. Ajani. Ajani gains you two life a turn. Exalted Angel gains you 4, WHILE doing damage. Ajani needs another creature around to pump it, but Angel doesn't need another creature. Finally, Ajani gives you an avatar token. Which has p/t equal to your life total. Which is going to be very low already, since you'll be taking hits from all sorts of random things. Or he could just use his Tarmogoyfs as removal for Ajani, which doesn't work for Goyf vs. Angel (in fact, Angel does beat Goyf).

(In other news, how many +1/+1 counters do you want to give something before it can fight a Goyf head on?)

[raharu]

That's kind missing the point. In a build with more creatures like the one suggested, Ajani is better because it lets you swing harder while maintaining a strong defensive line, and gives you additional win-conditions, in addition to more support against agro.

[rsaunder]

Oh, I agree, smokestacks would be godawful. The deck doesn't have enough permanants to support them at all.

I'm pretty sure I could be tempted to look at something in the current meta that played 4 vindicate, 4 STP, 3 Crucible (with wasteland, duh), 4 sinkhole, 4 thoughtseize, and a few copies of Eseph (that planeswalker that makes creatures). Throw in green for a couple deeds and goyf and I think you have a removal-heavy land-destruction based control deck. It's definitely not deadguy (neither is the list you posted), but it might be the logical evolution considering that the deck is dying hard right now.

[Hummingbird TG]

That deck looks to have the same (if not similar) failings that Deadguy has, namely being slow. Deadguy is fine in the midgame if you can get off enough disruption and fast, but many times almost every deck outspeeds it, so you do nothing; and that, I think, is the problem we should be working towards addressing.

[rsaunder]

That deck looks to have the same (if not similar) failings that Deadguy has, namely being slow. Deadguy is fine in the midgame if you can get off enough disruption and fast, but many times almost every deck outspeeds it, so you do nothing; and that, I think, is the problem we should be working towards addressing.
Isn't that a problem that board sweepers fix pretty effectively? the basic gameplan would be disrupt in the early game, then sweep the board and the next turn play some fat creature.

Deadguy in its most classic form (think back a few years before all of these Wb weenie decks popped up) had inevitability over almost nothing. Goblins, given time would regain their feet and outdraw deadguy. Thresh would stabilize, as would landstill. Solidarity just has inevitability over everything ever. This deck had to survive early game, had a strong midgame, then got outdrawn again in the late game. I really don't think much has changed now, except hymn to tourach is now a somewhat lesser piece of disruption. Couldn't we just add soft locks to give deadguy inevitability? I mean, no one has presented a recent relevant T8 with the deck so something has to be able to change.

[Tao]

It cannot play the tempo game with Team America and loses the sui role to Eva all day long.

But, in a 1-1, Deadguy Ale beats both Team America and Eva Green. Ale has 7-8 Removal Spells for each of their creatures while they have exactly Zero if you only play black creatures. Plus you have a card drawing machine in Confidant that wins by itself in these mirrors.


Isn't that a problem that board sweepers fix pretty effectively? the basic gameplan would be disrupt in the early game, then sweep the board and the next turn play some fat creature.

Play IBA's Truffle Shuffle then. This is Deadguy Ale.


Pretty cool, running SDT seems like a good way to avoid taking 8 to the face with bob :)

It is not only to get Confidant running. It is often that you get players into a Topdeck war and then Top wins. I am still torn between 4 Stalker, 2 Top and 3/3. I see no other card to cut or reduce.



Any reasons why I should pick Deadguy Ale over Eva Green as my next deck?

- You have Dark Confidant
- You have Vindicate (2nd LD and 2nd Removal)
- Your removal works against Tombstalker
- You are immune against Snuff Out and Ghastly Demise

[raharu]

That deck looks to have the same (if not similar) failings that Deadguy has, namely being slow. Deadguy is fine in the midgame if you can get off enough disruption and fast, but many times almost every deck outspeeds it, so you do nothing; and that, I think, is the problem we should be working towards addressing.

It's slow, but it has enough relevant actions to take in the late game alongside enough relevant things to do in order to stall that it's speed doesn't matter. It's more threat-heavy and every play in the deck feels like a bomb, so you won't have random topdecks that make you go :frown:, outside of discard, which is good in the mid- and Late-game against control and combo anyway.

[rsaunder]

In theory, you're correct about the matchups against Eva and TA, but in practice you're wrong. Eva plays the tempo role very effectively against us, and most of our removal is nullified by sinkhole and wasteland. They also play 4x tombstalker and goyf, which outclass everything we play. Team America does the same thing, except they also have stifle to cut off fetches and daze does a number on this deck when backed up by goyf. I played this deck for years to so many 10th and 11th place finishes it was maddening. I might know a little about the theory behind it, so let's please not oversimplify arguments on my account.

As for the comparison to truffle shuffle, that's not what I was getting at remotely. But thanks for dismissing my point all the same.

[Tao]

I played this deck for years to so many 10th and 11th place finishes it was maddening. I might know a little about the theory behind it, so let's please not oversimplify arguments on my account.

I did not mean to attack you personally. But I've played the deck a lot, too, since a long time.


In theory, you're correct about the matchups against Eva and TA, but in practice you're wrong. Eva plays the tempo role very effectively against us, and most of our removal is nullified by sinkhole and wasteland.


Just out of curiosity: How many lands do you run? (could only find a 3C list with 22 lands from you, the thread is a bit long).

Imo 19 Lands, 4 Wastelands always was and still is the correct number of lands. There are so many 17 lands, 4 Wasteland lists which are all horrible because they don't supply BB regularly on turn 2. Of course people lose against the first Wasteland when their lists have only 21 lands (not even taling about that 18 lands, 2 Ajani list).



Team America does the same thing, except they also have stifle to cut off fetches and daze does a number on this deck when backed up by goyf.
They also play 4x tombstalker and goyf, which outclass everything we play.

Maybe with all the Stifles in the Meta we could play more Godless Shrine and 1-2 Fetid Heath to play around it (Fetid Heath is slightly superior to Tainted Field if you want to cast two White spells on one turn).

I play Stalker, too. Everyone should. So Stalkers will neutralize themselves. Without any enchantments or artifacts in both decks Shade will be able to take down a Goyf for 3 Mana (and with all these Stalkers around sometimes for 2 Mana).




As for the comparison to truffle shuffle, that's not what I was getting at remotely. But thanks for dismissing my point all the same.

That is exactly where you are getting when you start playing sweepers. Once you play Board Sweepers there won't be any need for Dark Ritual and then you play big creatures and end at Finn's Dirt or IBA's Truffle Shuffle.

[raharu]

Imo 19 Lands, 4 Wastelands always was and still is the correct number of lands. There are so many 17 lands, 4 Wasteland lists which are all horrible because they don't supply BB regularly on turn 2. Of course people lose against the first Wasteland when their lists have only 21 lands (not even taling about that 18 lands, 2 Ajani list).

That's just a biased opinion. Due to the fact that I'm not running Wasteland, I don't have any need for more than 18 lands since I'm not burning them off, and trying to say that that my manabase (you know, the one with 8 Fetches and 6 Basics?) gives a flying fuck about a single Wasteland is just biased opinion. That, and the fact that I don't have to cast Sinkhole, and the fact that I'm not feeding Nantuko Shade, and the general fact that my manabase requirements, as a whole, are less strenuous than the contemporary lists that you're accustomed to, mean that Wasteland isn't as relevant to me as you want to give it credit for. There are so many basic mana sources and ways to get at them that Wasteland doesn't matter. Team America is going to eat it, but then again Team America devours most things, and asks for seconds, so that's not really a relevant argument.

It's a different list that plays different, and looses some of the drawbacks of the contemporary lists, such as needing to lean on excess lands because the spells need the manabase to do absurd contortions just to play Magic. Evaluate it as such.

On a different note, is there really a whole lot of reason keeping one from just playing BW control?

[rsaunder]

@Tao: It's been a while since I played anything deadguy-ish competitively. I think my last Bw list played 22 land, with 4 wastes as the manabase. That Bwg list played out very well, oddly enough, but I don't want to get started on how useful the green splash is just now.

Why is it so sacreligious to suggest playing sweepers? If the deck still retains its overall game plan and just focuses in on more better creatures (E. Angel and stalker instead of hippy+whatever which I think are just too small now for use as beaters). It ends up being slower, of course, but better prepared for the meta is not a bad thing. The deck still focuses on winning the long-game through land destruction and mana-denial, although it gets more effective tools to do so.

[Whit3 Ghost]

I've currently settled on a list similar to Tao's with a few minor changes of
-1 Land
-3 Top

+1 Swords
+ 3 Smallpox

However, Smallpox has been all sorts of meh. I don't like it when I'm behind in the creature race, as it it usually places far too much of a burden on my resources. I don't like it when it needs to be removal, because it will usually take out my lone threat and I don't like it when it needs to be disruption, because it hurts my board creature wise and I usually have a few cards in hand I want to hold on to. In a nutshell, the situation is that when it's good, I feel like there are other things that could have done it's job, and when it's bad, it's really frustrating.

Problem is, I don't know what I can run instead. If I could, I'd run 5 Sinkhole 5 Vindicate and 5 Swords.

[chokin]

@raharu - Your deck looks kinda like BW Aggro with some Deadguy elements, but not quite Deadguy (maybe call it that). An interesting idea. But I think that Wasteland is a necessary card for Deadguy. It makes Sinkhole better in a way, because it gives you 8 land destruction effects (unless you Hymn some).

@Whit3 Ghost - Smallpox is probably not the right direction for the deck. Edicts would be better even though you're probably running it for the combination of removal, discard and land destruction. Maybe Rancid Earth in that slot? It still covers a land kill and kills small creatures. Otherwise run stuff that comes back like Epochrasite (meh) or Nether Spirit (meh) or whatever to support Smallpox.

[Tao]

I've currently settled on a list similar to Tao's with a few minor changes of
-1 Land
-3 Top

+1 Swords
+ 3 Smallpox

My experiences with Smallpox were like yours: I didn't like it.
I know that you played and dismissed Top so I try to explain why I run it. An active Top is a better card Quality base than Team America's cantrips. I just played a game on MWS against a BGW Rock deck. In game 3 on the play I mulligan to six and he Thoughtseizes my Hymn away leaving me with a StoP and 4 Lands. Next draw step I draw a Top and from then on I win even though he had a solid draw. Top helped me stabilizing against his Goyf / Hierarch and then made me win the Topdeck war without many problems.



Why is it so sacreligious to suggest playing sweepers? If the deck still retains its overall game plan and just focuses in on more better creatures (E. Angel and stalker instead of hippy+whatever which I think are just too small now for use as beaters).

As I said I think Mass Removal would turn the deck too much into a control deck. I also see no need for it. Against other threat-light decks like Thresh or Team America a Spot Removal does nearly the same because they won't play a second creature into BBBB if they already beat for 5/turn. Against Goblins you lose on the long run anyway with or without Mass Removal because of Ringleader. And against Combo or Control Mass Removal is traditionally weak.

I don't play Hippie, it is outclassed by Stalker in nearly every way. I don't like Exalted Angel for many reasons:
- with Exalted + Stalker you can't play Confidant anymore
- Shade, Confidant and Stalker are all must-answers, too and they are much easier to play
- Exalted Angel makes you vulnerable against Snuff Out and Ghastly Demise

[Hummingbird TG]

@Tao:

I don't play Stalker because Stalker doesn't block as well as Angel. Stalker is meant to be aggressive, and playing aggro against some decks, namely Thresh and anything else faster than you, is suicide. Angel trumps Thresh with an 8 point life swing a turn, something Tombstalker can't do. I'm not saying play BOTH Angel and Stalker, I'm saying play Angel over Stalker. One drawback, however, I confess, is that Angel does cost a lot more mana, and especially a lot more white.

@Rsaunder:

Running sweepers cost mana. Turning this deck into a control deck does, too. This requires us to play more lands. however, with the poor quality of search available in these colors, playing more lands would result in drawing dead lategame (or doing many tricks with Top, which again cost mana, and thus slow you down even further, requiring you to spend mana to make land drops or spend mana to draw useful spells which you then lack mana to cast).

On inevitability, I'm not saying Deadguy necessarily has good inevitability. However, it does at least have Exalted Angels, which are a fast clock, and, if necessary, Volrath's Stronghold to recur them is a viable option (assuming they aren't StPed); and with fast clocks and a bit of inevitability in the form of Stronghold, Deadguy can actually possibly benefit from the tempo gains it creates.

@Whit3 Ghost: I agree wholeheartedly on Smallpox. Most lists nowadays don't play it often though.

[Valarne]

Yesterday I reached the top 8 in the Danish Legacy Nationals (although called Grand Tournament due to some Wotc decision or something.)

I'll be posting a report in a few days or so, but for this threads interest, I can say that notable plusses were:

4 Exalted, 3 Grunts (and 4 BOB). This creaturebase worked like a charm for me. I never felt like I had too few or too many, and the grunts came in handy a lot, while the Angels did their thing, racing stuff.

4 Hymn, 4 Gerrards Verdict. I really liked this, but in retrospect would have taken 1 GV out, for the fourth STP. I didn't hit any ANT though, and in this MU 8 2-for-1's is golden.

Ichorid matchup was quite decent postboard, with 4 Ghostly Prison, 4 RoP and 3 EE from the side. Won two rounds against Ichorid.

[Hummingbird TG]

Congratulations on the top8, Valarne! It's been a long time since Deadguy Ale top 8-ed anything! How many people were in the tournament, btw? (Oh, and what's an RoP?)

About the deck, though, isn't running so much white taxing on your manabase (i.e. forcing you to fetch Scrublands aggressively)? And is Ghostly Prison (which costs 3 mana) too slow in the Ichorid matchup? You also didn't seem to mention Leyline of the Void, even though it was in your list the last time you posted it, if I remember correctly...was it taken out?

Hmm Congratulations anyway!

Regards,

Hummingbird TG

[Valarne]

Congratulations on the top8, Valarne! It's been a long time since Deadguy Ale top 8-ed anything! How many people were in the tournament, btw? (Oh, and what's an RoP?)

About the deck, though, isn't running so much white taxing on your manabase (i.e. forcing you to fetch Scrublands aggressively)? And is Ghostly Prison (which costs 3 mana) too slow in the Ichorid matchup? You also didn't seem to mention Leyline of the Void, even though it was in your list the last time you posted it, if I remember correctly...was it taken out?

Hmm Congratulations anyway!

Regards,

Hummingbird TG

Thanks! I think there was about 86 players.
Manabase: Well it really helps bringing in 8 B/W cards (Verdict and Vindicate), to feed the Mox. There was a few games were I got landdisrupted, and that was a problem - but mostly because I was sitting with a Wasteland or Stronghold along with one land, and a bad hand for it. Getting WW wasn't generally an issue.
RoP is Relic of Progenitus. I used this instead of Leyline because it is a bit more versatile, and not a dead topdeck. Its quite ok against Ichorid, and useful against Thresh, which is a tough matchup.

I actually didn't draw any Ghostly Prisons, because I had hands with RoP and/or EE and Grunt. But they would have been awesome I'm sure. It can hit the table by turn 2, and of course this can be too slow, but when its accompanied with other anti-threats, then I think its fine. Remember that, if it resolves, then its probably GG, considering the 12 Landdestruction effects in Deadguy. All that aside, I was aiming for a versatile SB, and the Prisons would be useful in a lot of other tough matchups, such as Zoo, which was/is rampant in the Danish meta.

[braccobaldobau]

Congratulations for your top8!!
Can you post yuor decklist? Because I don't know it and I would like see it.
tnx

[Valarne]

Thanks, and sure. The list was:

4 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
1 Volraths Stronghold
3 Swamp
1 Plains

4 Exalted Angel
4 Dark Confidant
3 Jotun Grunt

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Gerrards Verdict
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Senseis Divining Top
4 Chrome Mox

SB:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Engineered Explosives

[Valarne]

Here's the report:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11978

[BlindMage]

Thanks, and sure. The list was:

4 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
1 Volraths Stronghold
3 Swamp
1 Plains

4 Exalted Angel
4 Dark Confidant
3 Jotun Grunt

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Gerrards Verdict
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Senseis Divining Top
4 Chrome Mox

SB:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Engineered Explosives

This looks like a good list, but I have a few questions. First, how does it do against decks with CounterTop, particularly Threshold variants and Dreadstill? Looking strictly at the cmc spread of the deck, it would seem like CounterTop would be a big, fat, game-ending kick in the junk. On the other hand, I could see them having to get past so much discard and LD in order to get CB on the table that they would be basically out of cards when they did, and their CB would just suck a Vindicate. Which is it? Also, how is the AggroLoam matchup? Finally, is it really worth it to sideboard Engineered Explosives when the highest it can go is 2? What matches do you bring it in for, and how has it been?

EDIT: Another question: Do you have issues with threat density?

[Valarne]

This looks like a good list, but I have a few questions. First, how does it do against decks with CounterTop, particularly Threshold variants and Dreadstill? Looking strictly at the cmc spread of the deck, it would seem like CounterTop would be a big, fat, game-ending kick in the junk. On the other hand, I could see them having to get past so much discard and LD in order to get CB on the table that they would be basically out of cards when they did, and their CB would just suck a Vindicate. Which is it? Also, how is the AggroLoam matchup? Finally, is it really worth it to sideboard Engineered Explosives when the highest it can go is 2? What matches do you bring it in for, and how has it been?

EDIT: Another question: Do you have issues with threat density?

Well, CounterTop doesn't seem to be too popular anymore, in the metas I run into. It can be tough, as always, but I still fell that theres a decent spread between the 1, 2, and 3 cmc, too allow one to play around it - and yeah having 4 Vindicates relieves the stress of seeing Countertop, or Chalice at 1 AND 2, which I tried once in the tourney.
Thresh is a tough matchup, worse than StifleNought I think, because their beats are so solid and persistant, while I have a lot of removal for the one Nought that tend to see the table.
AggroLoam can also be bad, preboard, but isn't played enough to really scare me as such. EE is so versatile, especially against tokens, and Counterbalance for instance. Primarily though for Zoo, which presents too many threats, but all ranging at 1cc or 2cc.
The threat density was a problem, but I felt that it improved vastly when I just ran 3 Grunts, because they are solid once they hit - and I don't want to play any creatures until I have severed their hand, and hopefully their land as well - feeding the grave, and giving Grunt a long life.
Thanks for the questions!

ps: Yea, when the deck is running smoothly, it can really hold people off having permanents, which is nice:)

edit: heres the top8 decklist: http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?event=Danish+Legacy+Champs+2008

[Ziilot]

First post to source :) Yai.
So.. I have recently played with this kind of list:

5 Swamp
4 Scrubland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath
1 Tainted Field
1 Volrath's Stronghold
21
4 Dark Confidant
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Nantuko Shade
2 Tombstalker
13
4 Hymn To Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
4 Dark Ritual
3 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
1 Disenchant (Random)
26


I have been very satisfied with Tombstalker. I really would like to play three of them but can't do that because of Confidants. I have also tried Jitte's and Sofais but those just doesn't work for me.

What do you think about Tidehollow Sculler? Sounds pretty good to me.
Tomb of Urami?

I think that Goblins and Sligh are quite bad matchups :/
Also Countertop is annoying against this deck. Gotta try changing Disenchants to Dismantling Blows.

-Ziilot

[Valarne]

First post to source :) Yai.
So.. I have recently played with this kind of list:

5 Swamp
4 Scrubland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath
1 Tainted Field
1 Volrath's Stronghold
21
4 Dark Confidant
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Nantuko Shade
2 Tombstalker
13
4 Hymn To Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
4 Dark Ritual
3 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
1 Disenchant (Random)
26


I have been very satisfied with Tombstalker. I really would like to play three of them but can't do that because of Confidants. I have also tried Jitte's and Sofais but those just doesn't work for me.

What do you think about Tidehollow Sculler? Sounds pretty good to me.
Tomb of Urami?

I think that Goblins and Sligh are quite bad matchups :/
Also Countertop is annoying against this deck. Gotta try changing Disenchants to Dismantling Blows.

-Ziilot

Hello then!

Why Dismantling Blows, when youre playing no blue manasources (unless I'm missing it)? Simply because of CounterTop? How about Engineered Explosives instead? This can be set to your desired manacost, and take other stuff than just Counterbalance.

[Hummingbird TG]

Bleh I had to dig to page 2 to get this thread. Looks like it's time for a bump to the first page eh?

Anyway what I'm posting about is the Threshold matchup, or rather a question on it. It appears to me that we're strictly outclassed by Threshold in terms of deck strategy and execution thereof (Our disruption costs us mana, their disruption costs US mana (and is free for them); their search/draw is better than ours (Cantrips v. 4 Dark Confidants); and they have a lock against almost everything we play (and it's hard to kill them fast enough before they set it down).

So how do we play this matchup? And how do we side?(I'm playing Valarne's list, btw.) I presume we side in Relic of Progenitus, but then what do we take out? Should we play additional outs to CB, btw?

[Valarne]

Bleh I had to dig to page 2 to get this thread. Looks like it's time for a bump to the first page eh?

Anyway what I'm posting about is the Threshold matchup, or rather a question on it. It appears to me that we're strictly outclassed by Threshold in terms of deck strategy and execution thereof (Our disruption costs us mana, their disruption costs US mana (and is free for them); their search/draw is better than ours (Cantrips v. 4 Dark Confidants); and they have a lock against almost everything we play (and it's hard to kill them fast enough before they set it down).

So how do we play this matchup? And how do we side?(I'm playing Valarne's list, btw.) I presume we side in Relic of Progenitus, but then what do we take out? Should we play additional outs to CB, btw?

Yeah Thresh is really a pain. Well, being a DTB for a long time has its reasons. If the Thresh-player is running CounterTop, we could bring in some EE, along with maybe 2-3 Relics. We shouldnt compromise to much of our own strategy, but I'm thinking that siding out the Sinkholes should be ok. It really weakens our LD, but against Thresh, this rarely seems game-ending anyway (because of their low cmc). Our gameplan would then switch from heavy-LD to spot-removing their few threats.
EE is a tool against CounterTop, but also their oftentimes onesided table of Goyfs or Geese.

[Hummingbird TG]

So -4 Sinkhole +2 Relic +2 EE? I'd personally like more EEs, though...

How about game one, btw? It seems we just lose that game... (Thresh has the amazing ability to play so many cards in its deck that wreck us, such that just topdecking one after all our disruption means it can win...

By the way, why not side in CotV at 1 (stops Swords to Plowshares, and Cantrips, and if it drops before Top, stops CB lock)? (But of course there's the problem as to what to side out...)

[Valarne]

So -4 Sinkhole +2 Relic +2 EE? I'd personally like more EEs, though...

How about game one, btw? It seems we just lose that game... (Thresh has the amazing ability to play so many cards in its deck that wreck us, such that just topdecking one after all our disruption means it can win...

By the way, why not side in CotV at 1 (stops Swords to Plowshares, and Cantrips, and if it drops before Top, stops CB lock)? (But of course there's the problem as to what to side out...)

As to game one; As you pointed out earlier in the thread (if my memory serves me) getting an Exalted Angel to stick and perform beats, should be able to do the trick. In general its tough, as you point out, because their deck is more consistent than ours. If we know the opponent is playing Thresh, then we can't allow for a semi-weak hand, but really have to make sure that we can put some pressure from the beginning(bearing Daze in mind still).
I considered CotV at some point, and it might be good, but should we then board out Thoughtseize and STP? Those are great in this matchup as well. Plus we kinda force our selves to mull for land, Chrome and Cotv, because we have put so much of the decks energy in this direction (which can be forced or dazed, if it is pursued so aggressively).
It might work, but on paper (havent tested sufficiently), i'd prefer some mix of EE and Relic. Maybe more could be sided out for more EE, maybe some Gerrards Verdict. EE certainly is a bomb, as they have no recursion, and few ways to deal with a Grunt or Angel holding of Geese or shrinking Goyfs.

[Hummingbird TG]

My biggest problem with the stick an Angel gameplan is that Thresh always seems to have Swords to Plowshares somewhere, else it'd just shuffle its deck with fetches and do a bit of Topping, and voila. Chalice stops that. Of course, we have to side out swords, but we can side them out for the Engineered Explosives we're bringing in, so we aren't short on removal. We can then, as you suggested, side out the Verdicts for Relics. (I wouldn't oppose to keeping in thoughtseizes though. Turn 1 Thoughtseize Turn 2 Chalice sounds amazingly attractive).

I don't actually propose that we should mull for Chalice (We have enough problems finding a keepable hand with adequate disruption and mana anyway, and I don't think we need to increase those problems). However, Chalice is a must counter, meaning they have one less counter for our Angels, Bobs and Grunts when they do come down (sadly when CB is down this all means nothing). And preferably, their counters would have been worn down removing our earlier disruption/creatures.

On a tangent, what's your opinion on running Maindecked Chalice, as opposed to maindeck StP? Of course, we're going to have to fit in alternative removal somewhere, maybe EE... Would this increase our Artifact Count too much for Chrome Mox? And is this idea even tenable?

---

EDIT: I made a new post for the following, but discovered it took up a new page, so I moved it here instead and deleted that.

I had a sudden brainwave:

How about siding Sudden Spoiling for Threshold? It makes all their creatures lose to our creatures, and it can't be countered.

Although I do have to admit that against Thresh even having creatures is extremely lucky, so i guess it may not solve anything at all...

[Valarne]

I guess Sudden Spoiling would be good in some cases, but only superior to other types of removal if the opponent has two or more creatures, and you have two as well, engaging in combat. Offhand it seems a bit too shaky, but its worth a try! Split Second is always sexy.

CotV main: If we ran this main, then a lot should be changed for it to be synergistic and fully utilizing the power of CotV, and I think we would be looking at a kind of Angel Stompy build pretty soon.

Edit: Sideboard thoughts: Siding in 4 EE, and 3 Relics for 4 Sinkholes and Verdicts sounds good, but as you point out, there might be issues with the Moxen. Well, since Relics are cheap and cantrip, and a large chunk of the 2cc cards are sided out, then it would be worth a try siding out maybe 2 Chromes, and adding the fourth Relic and something tech (Diabolic Edict/Sudden Spoiling?)
All this Thresh-siding reminds me of wanting to fit more creatures from the side when boarding Relics, such as Serra Avenger, that maintain the board more than Grunts, who are hurt under Relic. To be able to do this severely changes the sideboard though. CotV could be cut, giving something like this:
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Engineered Explosives
2 Serra Avenger
1 Diabolic Edict?

CotV improves matchups such as ANT, and Zoo, but these should be doable anyway, plus CotV hurts some of our own stuff. Heavy discard for ANT and EE and Ghostly for Zoo make these decent matchups I'd think.

A boardplan against Thresh could then be:
-Sinkholes 4
-G. Verdicts 3
-Chrome Mox 2
- Hymn to tourach 2

+EE 4
+ Relic of Progenitus 4
+ Serra Avenger 2
+ Diabolic Edict 1

[Hummingbird TG]

Yeah I guess both suggestions I made yesterday don't seem to make much sense on hindsight, they're to situational... I can't think of non-situational answers for Thresh, though, somehow (CotV out of SB is situational too, seeing as it doesn't always work and depends on Thresh to have some cards, right?)

[Deviruchi]

@Valarne: Gratz to your top8 finish :)

@topic:

I'm not familiar with Valarne's build (only ~20 games yet) but I think Perish can help. I can see around me a rise of Rock and Elves (Glimse / Survival) and in those matchups Perish is very helpful and surprising. Other card that won me few games vs Thresh is Dystopia [but terrible in your build (I use only black creatures in my BWg version)].

About Split Spoiling - I've been thinking about this card for a long time and still can't find place and use for it in Deadguy. It can be gamebreaking but I usually fail to have blockers when I have it. There were too few perfect situations during testing to abuse it, usually I wanted to have additional removal (mostly Vindicate or something 1 for X like EE or Perish).

Greetings.

[Hummingbird TG]

@topic:

I'm not familiar with Valarne's build (only ~20 games yet) but I think Perish can help. I can see around me a rise of Rock and Elves (Glimse / Survival) and in those matchups Perish is very helpful and surprising. Other card that won me few games vs Thresh is Dystopia [but terrible in your build (I use only black creatures in my BWg version)].

Against Thresh I find that the problem is not generally that you have to answer their creatures (though you do eventually), but more pressingly and urgently, that you cannot play any other spells due to CB + Top, and their card quality resulting in you being overwhelmed. Perish may answer Thresh, but it may only do so temporarily, and so often does Thresh have another creature in its hand or at or near the top of its deck, such that it cast the other after you deal with whatever it currently had; and even in the case that it did not, it present you a counter for the Perish anyway (though I acknowledge that Perish has its strengths over Swords in this matchup, i.e. Mongoose and inability to be Counterbalanced).

However, Perish is often too narrow, and I ask what you would cut in the Sideboard for it; for its use is often against Thresh alone.

Furthermore, Perish being a Temporary answer, doesn't solve the eventual problem of the backbreaking advantage that Counterbalance brings, your only out to that being Angel or Vindicate (or EE), which the Top would have brought the Thresh player plenty of answers for.

[Umezete]

Well I felt like posting my b/w aggro deadguy deck here as it seems differant enough from the current lists being discussed. Please note that I admit the deck probaly is a mess because 1) its recently constructed and 2) legacy isn't easy to playtest in my area.

What I do like about my deck though is the amound of ld in it which seems to hurt at least the local threshold decks quite a bit.

Here is what I use

Creatures
4 tombstalker
3 jotun Grunt
4 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Weathered Wayfarer

Spells
4 Vindicate
2 Gerrald's Verdict
4 Sinkhole
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
4 Mana Tithe

Artifacts
2 Cruicible of Worlds

lands
1 Dust bowl
2 Mishira's Factory
4 Wasteland
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Windswept Hearth
4 Scrubland
3 Godless Shrine
1 Plains
1 Swamp

sb
don't know, I'm probaly going to read this thread and come up with one based on previous sbs for this deck.
(here is a random one anyway)
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Natuko Shade
1 Orsov Pontiff
2 Engineered Explosives
4 rancid earth

Anyway the biggest thing here is I cannot figure out how to add confidant. I'm not quite willing to risk bad luck and tombstalkers in this deck as it isn't the fastest deck in the world. In the end I took the finisher over the card engine for sake of threat density.

Tidehollow sculler- love him, he proactively disrupts while providing a decent body and is without a doubt the perfect card to complement the hand disruption used.

Weathered Wayfarer- I love this guy, I don't comprehend how he doesn't see any more play. As soon as the opponent has one more land than you you can search your libray for factories, wastelands, heck even dust bowl, tomb of the Urami (I might add that by the way so thanks to whoever mentioned it) and vorath's stronhold. The recursive search just seems sick.

Cruicible of worlds- Only a couple seem to fit but I really like how this deck can punish nonebasic useres something aweful.

[Hummingbird TG]

@Umezete:

First up, on your manabase: Godless Shrine is unnecessary and only causes you more pain and vulnerability to Blood Moon (not that you are otherwise immune to it, or that it doesn't otherwise hurt, but Shrine does nothing effectively for you; and thereby it's presence serves to only weaken your deck rather than strengthen it); in fact, the fetching ability of Bloodstained Mires/other Fetchlands more than provides the necessary colors for efficient functioning of the deck.

Onto the deck proper:

Weathered Wayfarer is cool. I liked the idea of Wayfarer tricks in U/W Nogoyf.dec; however, here it seems though that it only consumes mana. There Wayfarer could destroy the opponent's colored mana sources while being protected by blue free disruption. Here all our disruption is proactive as opposed to reactive. In other formats, this might mean spending less mana, but in legacy, whereas reactive disruption is free, proactive disruption costs mana, as can be evidenced from our land and hand disruption spells. This causes Weathered Wayfarer to seem more slow and clunky to me in this sort of deck. How does it work for you?

In other news, the lack of Dark Confidant (while understandable due to the presence of Tombstalker and other CA engines, e.g. Wayfarer) stands out. How often do you miss having Dark Confidant? The rest of the deck looks standard, except Mana Tithe, which I find to be clunky due to being extremely conditional and requiring holding open one mana.

Also I would suggest running some utility lands in the sideboard, such as Maze of Ith, for Weatherer to fetch; and Sensei's Divining Top looks interesting, seeing as Wayfarer provides free shuffling of your deck for you. You may want to look into some answers for Counterbalance in the sideboard, too (more than just 2 EE, I think); for Counter-Top shuts of most of your disruption and lets Thresh/Dreadstill Force your Tombstalker. The deck also seems slow, does it race well with Goyfs?

[Umezete]

@Umezete:

First up, on your manabase: Godless Shrine is unnecessary and only causes you more pain and vulnerability to Blood Moon (not that you are otherwise immune to it, or that it doesn't otherwise hurt, but Shrine does nothing effectively for you; and thereby it's presence serves to only weaken your deck rather than strengthen it); in fact, the fetching ability of Bloodstained Mires/other Fetchlands more than provides the necessary colors for efficient functioning of the deck.


Point taken, I'll end up dropping those for some basics when I reximine the deck tomorrow. I might keep one due to an irrational fear of extirpate but that's it.



Onto the deck proper:

Weathered Wayfarer is cool. I liked the idea of Wayfarer tricks in U/W Nogoyf.dec; however, here it seems though that it only consumes mana. There Wayfarer could destroy the opponent's colored mana sources while being protected by blue free disruption. Here all our disruption is proactive as opposed to reactive. In other formats, this might mean spending less mana, but in legacy, whereas reactive disruption is free, proactive disruption costs mana, as can be evidenced from our land and hand disruption spells. This causes Weathered Wayfarer to seem more slow and clunky to me in this sort of deck. How does it work for you?

To be honest its very good on the draw as it gets me an extra card every turn for a couple of turns. I have enought disruption at 1 to not feel too alarmed by tieing up those lands. Plus getting two or three wastelands from my deck for just one w each over the course of a few turns is just great. I do feel that "clunky" play to him occasionally though never when on the draw. Though this does bring up the intresting point of adding blue to the deck which is what I originally intended but realized that it just consumed too much of the deck space.




In other news, the lack of Dark Confidant (while understandable due to the presence of Tombstalker and other CA engines, e.g. Wayfarer) stands out. How often do you miss having Dark Confidant?

I still miss him but do not feel like he is as necisary as the set of stalker is. Both crucible and wayfarer are to mitigate the loss of confidant as they are almost as good at producing disruption as confidant is. Tombstalker is just too good of a creature against threshold and other varient decks as the evasion flying and fast clock really hurts those decks. In the end I think I'd basically say I don't really feel like something is missing when I play the deck without confidant but every time I try revising the idea of this deck I end up trying to add confidants. That may be more for my love of bob more than any nagging need for it though as I try to put confidant in any deck I build that isn't combo. (threshold for example though I'll probaly take that apart to build a more mainstream thresh)


edit: sorry for the rambling, I look over this tomorrow and see if I can't make it a little more coherent as I'm posting kinda late with some serious lack of sleep build up.

[Hummingbird TG]

Another couple of thoughts, but why Gerrard's Verdict over Hymn to Tourach? There doesn't seem to be specific need for the lifegain, since you don't run Bob, and I don't see the difficulty in getting BB...

Also on Mana Tithe could you explain its inclusion and use abit? Thanks.

As for Jotun Grunt and Tombstalker, do you often have enough cards in graveyards to feed both? And with both of these, would it be wise in the sideboard (if I wanted to) to run Relic of Progenitus, or should we stick with Crypt/Extirpates?

And how about a singleton Volrath's Stronghold somewhere to fetch? They seem like they could be useful to recur dead creatures...

[Umezete]

Another couple of thoughts, but why Gerrard's Verdict over Hymn to Tourach? There doesn't seem to be specific need for the lifegain, since you don't run Bob, and I don't see the difficulty in getting BB...

To be honest the only real reaon verdicts are in there is that I saw them in more lists than hymn and wasn't quite sure why but didn't necisarly want to change them right away. If that is the reaon why the verdicts are run then I'll convert to hymn instantaneoulsy.


Also on Mana Tithe could you explain its inclusion and use abit? Thanks.

Originally this deck was U/B/W with a similiar stradegy and list to team america+ vindicate. Eventually I gave up on three colors and dropped U altogether which caused me to miss my countermagic. Mana tithe, while certainly no force or daze does tend to snag spells especially if you focus of ld for the first few turns of the game. This deck tend to try to short the opponent on mana and I feel mana tithe is the best way to abuse this without re adding blue for daze and co.


As for Jotun Grunt and Tombstalker, do you often have enough cards in graveyards to feed both? And with both of these, would it be wise in the sideboard (if I wanted to) to run Relic of Progenitus, or should we stick with Crypt/Extirpates?

Honestly there is not a good representation of the legacy meta in my area and I basically end up playing against decks like threshold (all older players run a form of thresh varient) or burn (easy to build and easy to run but the graveyard fills up fast). In these situations I often find I have plenty of fodder for these guys and in fact against the myraid of tarmogoyfs I have the play against they certainly seem to work.

The problem is any ichoroid deck, they utilize their resources far faster than these critters can eat them often so I'd probaly recomment crypt the most as a sb graveyard hoser and then I'd let the meta decide the outcome of the second. I'm more afraid of shenanigans than goyfs though so I'd prefer the stronger combo hoser of extripate than relic.


And how about a singleton Volrath's Stronghold somewhere to fetch? They seem like they could be useful to recur dead creatures...


I'm showing how new I'm here again but I never ever even heard of this card until I started reading these threads. I'd probaly md either this or tomb of the urami depending on what the results of both cards are. The tomb I have now though wheras I'll have to go looking for a stronghold.

[Hummingbird TG]

I don't think I've seen many lists of Deadguy Ale (or any, if at all) running Gerrard's Verdict but no Hymns to Tourach. Perhaps you're talking about all those White Weenie/black builds which get posted in the thread as well? (I suspect that in addition to the life gain, for those decks they play Gerrard's Verdict as the mana would be easier for them to hit, as opposed to the BB of Hymn to Tourach).

Tomb of Urami seems strong if you can keep a Wayfarer out, but how long do you generally get Wayfarer to stick in games? Otherwise, without Wayfarer, wouldn't it be dangerous to sacrifice all your lands in a 22-land deck?

On Mana Tithe, I see your reasoning, and I think I'd run the deck a little on MWS to test it out or something...

[Umezete]

I don't think I've seen many lists of Deadguy Ale (or any, if at all) running Gerrard's Verdict but no Hymns to Tourach. Perhaps you're talking about all those White Weenie/black builds which get posted in the thread as well? (I suspect that in addition to the life gain, for those decks they play Gerrard's Verdict as the mana would be easier for them to hit, as opposed to the BB of Hymn to Tourach).

This is the first time I've seen the deadguy ale archtype so yes it was based off me modifing a W/B weenie deck.


Tomb of Urami seems strong if you can keep a Wayfarer out, but how long do you generally get Wayfarer to stick in games? Otherwise, without Wayfarer, wouldn't it be dangerous to sacrifice all your lands in a 22-land deck?

If their smart not often and yes it is. The only redeeming fact to the tomb is it combos nicely with crucible of worlds. However this is an idea I recently had and have not playtested the inclusion of either stronghold or tomb. Though overall I do think the stronghold is probaly the superior card.


On Mana Tithe, I see your reasoning, and I think I'd run the deck a little on MWS to test it out or something...
That would be awesome, I'd love to see if someone else can support this deck because legacy isn't quite my strong suite. overall I'm new to the format and still cannot metagame well.

Anyway, thanks for all the advice; I'll edit the decklist to include the changes you recommended.

new list
Creatures
4 tombstalker
3 jotun Grunt
4 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Weathered Wayfarer

Spells
4 Vindicate
2 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
4 Mana Tithe

Artifacts
2 Cruicible of Worlds

lands
1 Dust bowl
1 Volrath's Stronghold or tomb or urami depending
2 Mishira's Factory
4 Wasteland
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Windswept Hearth
1 Godless Shrine
4 Scrubland

1 Plains
2 Swamp

sb
still don't know here
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Natuko Shade
1 Orshov Pontiff
2 Engineered Explosives
4 tormod's crpt

[Deviruchi]

We have a top8 result in Meandeck Open (12/28/08) [55 players] with BWg build. 7th place took great player Cedric Phillips:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmagoyf
4 Mesmeric Fiend
3 Tombstalker

4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Sidebaord:
4 Duress
3 Extirpate
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Infest

It has 4x Bob, 3x Tombstalker, 3x SDT combo, Sinkholes became Mesmeric Fiends, no Shades/Hypnotics just Tarmogoyfs. Still we don't know the metagame so its hard to determine how his build was good in meta. We just know that he lost to 42land.dec in top8.

This build is quite elegant I must say. Maybe I would try to fit 1x EE and 1x Urborg somewhere. Change SB a bit (like everyone for his meta). I'm not familiar with Mesmerics, I've never played them so I need to test them. What do you guys think about Cedric's deck?

[Hummingbird TG]

We have a top8 result in Meandeck Open (12/28/08) [55 players] with BWg build. 7th place took great player Cedric Phillips:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmagoyf
4 Mesmeric Fiend
3 Tombstalker

4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Sidebaord:
4 Duress
3 Extirpate
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Infest

It has 4x Bob, 3x Tombstalker, 3x SDT combo, Sinkholes became Mesmeric Fiends, no Shades/Hypnotics just Tarmogoyfs. Still we don't know the metagame so its hard to determine how his build was good in meta. We just know that he lost to 42land.dec in top8.

This build is quite elegant I must say. Maybe I would try to fit 1x EE and 1x Urborg somewhere. Change SB a bit (like everyone for his meta). I'm not familiar with Mesmerics, I've never played them so I need to test them. What do you guys think about Cedric's deck?

That list is nothing special, I wouldn't call it a work of elegance or anything. Seems more to me like standard BWg Deadguy; my only remarks are that it loses to Thresh, as does all Deadguy, and most probably Dreadstill too. The only decks in the meta that conventional Deadguy can hope to beat is Landstill, and I am curious to see how this deck top 8'ed... any Tourney Reports from the pilot, or anything?

[Valarne]

@Deviruchi: The Mesmeric Fiends should probably be Tidehollow Scullers instead - this is certainly something that should be tested (only possible predicament in this would be the inability to Dark Ritual it in turn 1)

Gratz to your friend.

(by the way, isn't it rare to hear of 43land.dec T8'ing as well?)

[Hummingbird TG]

I have really not been pleased with Tidehollow Scullers (and the same goes for Mesmeric Fiends): If we take out threats/cards important to the opponent's game plan, it's too simple for them to trade a removal spell for it; and thereby it's just 2cc removal bait (if we take a removal spell, it still is 2cc: trade with a removal spell). Worse still, while it's a 2/2 body, it dies to almost anything, and therefore isn't even a Castigate effect (I would like a Castigate with a 2/2 attached, though); and therefore I hardly dare to attack with it (most decks play either Goyfs, Factories, or some other creatures of some sort, and Scullers are so fragile I don't dare to attack into anything...

[pi4meterftw]

Here is my list:

// Lands
5 [7E] Swamp (3)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [TE] Wasteland
4 [U] Scrubland
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [4E] Plains (1)

// Creatures
3 [CS] Jotun Grunt
3 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
2 [TE] Cursed Scroll
3 [AP] Gerrard's Verdict
2 [FNM] Engineered Plague
2 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AP] Vindicate
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (3)
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CS] Jotun Grunt
SB: 2 [FNM] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
SB: 4 [FNM] Withered Wretch
SB: 3 [OD] Sphere of Law
SB: 3 [ARE] Duress

Some explanations: I have excluded dark ritual because hypnotic specter is not in the deck. Ritual just seemed to be inconsistent with the good hands becoming really good hands and the bad hands (and situations) just becoming worse. I'd rather regress to the mean as a player with confidence in my abilities.

Hypnotic specter hasn't been included because it's too slow. The control decks can easily answer it, some combo decks have already won. The aggro decks have probably either already burned out their resources or have made the 2/2 rather insignificant.

Nantuko shade: I found I hardly ever had the mana for this. One of the complaints about jitte is the mana investment, in addition to the lack of creatures to put it on. Similarly, nantuko shade didn't work for me for the first reason.

Weathered wayfarer: unlike nogoyf.dec, this deck cannot play off of 1 or 2 lands.

Reasons for some inclusions:

Oblivion ring: This deck can just scoop up to an active goyf or a tombstalker. Even with 8 removal spells, one can reasonably expect your opponent to have more creatures than you have removal, and unlike in nogoyf.dec or perhaps other aggro decks, the only way to deal with a creature in this deck is to remove it. Sure, grunt can trump goyf, but that's about it. Our creatures are small.

Kitchen finks: This guy is the worst card in the deck IMO, is there a better life-gaining beater? Exalted angel is a confidant liability, as well as an easy loss of tempo for any removal spell.

Sensei's divining top: this thing is unbelievable. Especially with confidant, but it finds confidant, and with 8 sacs this is pretty good.

The sideboard is really wide open.

Any suggestions? Anticipated bad matchups that need sideboard attention? I think this will be my alternate deck when Forbiddian is playing nogoyf. (We share the cards.)

[Hummingbird TG]

@pi4meterftw:

Your list has some cards that are hardly seen on the thread, namely Kitchen Finks and Oblivion Ring. While you justify Finks as follows


Kitchen finks: This guy is the worst card in the deck IMO, is there a better life-gaining beater? Exalted angel is a confidant liability, as well as an easy loss of tempo for any removal spell.

I must mention that I am never disappointed (except when I lack 4 mana) to see Exalted Angel. Perhaps that may be a problem, running only 21 lands as your list does, but that is surely one of the only drawbacks of Angel. We are in topdeck mode searching (or rather, praying) for relevant cards often enough for Angel's tempo loss upon removal to not matter often.

The strengths of Angel, however, are numerous. She boosts your lifetotal to support Confidant (such that even if you reveal her often you just start gaining life next turn, and shrug it off); and when she hits, Thresh either presents StP, Enforcer, or moves to scoop phase. She, unlike any other threat yet available to us (even the potent Tombstalker) races Goyfs like no tomorrow with a large 8-point lifeswing. She finishes the game in 5 turns, unlike 7 turns for Finks, and without Grunt's drawbacks.

Of course, there is one fault of Angel, and that is necessity to play more lands to hit 2WW often, a problem I shall freely confess -- and that makes topdecking worse, which is a critical problem with this deck (topdecking here is horrible without Dark Confidant, and merely passable even with it).

Oblivion Ring is understandable as it trumps CB-Top, unlike Swords, and I think it merits testing, but I think 6 Maindecked removal spells are too few, seeing as creatures are getting bigger and bigger, and it is necessary to draw a removal spell fast to kill them off before they kill us. Perhaps accompany it with EE (for a CB-immune removal suite), or is that too slow?

I agree with your assessment on Specter and Shade, but I am unsure of your reasoning on Cursed Scroll, seeing that it suffers the same problems that you pointed out with Shade, namely mana consumption. I would prefer BBB for +3/+3 on Shade, than the same for Scroll (though acknowledgedly BBB is harder to hit than :3:); what does 2 damage hit in today's Legacy? 2 Engineered Plague too seems awkward after the decline of Goblins.

Also, is having Wastelands still relevant without running Sinkhole? How often are you able to randomly manascrew the opponent?

And on Gerrard's Verdict, 11 discard seems 1 too many.. you may want to stick with 10?

[pi4meterftw]

If the topdecking is that terrible, why aren't people running phyrexian arena? People freely confess that a 2/1 is not a significant beater, and I'd actually call it a liability. True that it costs "B" more, but you can't run 6 confidants, sorry... And there's plenty of times when I wish my confidant couldn't be targetted by creature removal.

Also, why was sinkhole ever good? It seemed like the exact thing a deck packing lots of discard should not do is run land destruction, and vice versa. Halfhearted screwing your opponent out of lands and spells does not seem like a good strategy.

Anyhow, I am thinking about
// Lands
6 [7E] Swamp (3)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [U] Scrubland
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [4E] Plains (1)

// Creatures
3 [CS] Jotun Grunt
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [ON] Exalted Angel

// Spells
4 [AP] Gerrard's Verdict
2 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AP] Vindicate
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (3)
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [AP] Phyrexian Arena

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CS] Jotun Grunt
SB: 2 [FNM] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
SB: 4 [FNM] Withered Wretch
SB: 3 [OD] Sphere of Law
SB: 3 [ARE] Duress

The reason for so much discard is that I can top it away, but I believe that it can help angel to actually connect if I can force my opponent to discard their answers. (Or, if the timing is ill, perhaps they shall "only" discard their threats, which is good also.)

The sideboard has remained unchanged. As it is, I see myself having Oring in a similar way Chris had wretches. One just boards them in when there's dead cards maindeck. I was runningwasteland to deal with the off hand land that causes problems like factories under standstill or maze of ith, but I suppose that's an allowable sacrifice to make sure I always have WW. (I now run 16 ways to get a hold of W, 18 ways to get a hold of B, and a solid 8 basic lands.)

Though the color demands are so specific here that the basic land option will probably sometimes be impossible. Anyway, I added in the 1x phyrexian arena just because I thought 5 draw an extra card per turn effects seemed to be the right amount. Between that and 4 top, I don't see how the drawing can be poor. Between wretch and grunt both x4, and now angel as well, it seems like the thresh matchup is in the bag, but I haven't tested this. Could someone tell me why it's so bad? With so much discard, it's not like we'll have trouble getting our hate to resolve, and then they can have fun with their 2/3 goyfs, 1/1 mongeese, and 3/3 enforcers.

[jebus]

I have really not been pleased with Tidehollow Scullers (and the same goes for Mesmeric Fiends): If we take out threats/cards important to the opponent's game plan, it's too simple for them to trade a removal spell for it; and thereby it's just 2cc removal bait (if we take a removal spell, it still is 2cc: trade with a removal spell). Worse still, while it's a 2/2 body, it dies to almost anything, and therefore isn't even a Castigate effect (I would like a Castigate with a 2/2 attached, though); and therefore I hardly dare to attack with it (most decks play either Goyfs, Factories, or some other creatures of some sort, and Scullers are so fragile I don't dare to attack into anything...

I have to agree with this. Scullers and Fiends seem interesting because they provide disruption with a body, but they don't really do either well. They don't eliminate your opponent's options (as a true discard spell would), they just delay its availability, and being 2/2 and 1/1, respectively, they don't present a real threat and are easy to remove.

It would be better to simply choose which one you want: disruption, or a threat? If the former, then play Duress. If the latter, you have lots to choose from: Shade, Angel, Avenger, even a G splash for Goyf. And if you really want a combination of both, Hyppie still exists, and is strictly better than Scullers or Fiends - it has evasion, can actually come out earlier with a Ritual, has a truly disruptive effect effect, and can singlehandedly win games if unanswered.

Actually, now that I think about it, why not run 2-4 Duress to go with 4 Seize, instead of stuff like Fiends or Scullers (or even Verdicts)? It gives you a stronger opening turn even without Ritual, makes sure you are more consistently disruptive, and in later turns can be filtered through with SDT and fetches. When Seize was printed, it seems like everyone forgot how good Duress can be - fine, Seize is a lot better, but that takes nothing away from Duress. If extra disruption is what is needed (and the lists with Fiends and Scullers suggest that; after all, they're nearly worthless as creatures), then look no further.

[Hummingbird TG]

If the topdecking is that terrible, why aren't people running phyrexian arena? People freely confess that a 2/1 is not a significant beater, and I'd actually call it a liability. True that it costs "B" more, but you can't run 6 confidants, sorry... And there's plenty of times when I wish my confidant couldn't be targetted by creature removal.

Probably because the potential to cast Bob on turn 2 is too important to not have, I guess (or turn 1 with Chrome Mox, for those who run that). Although confessedly Arena does get around Counter-top, and it's harder to remove (but it's harder to kill off if need be, though (not that that often arises, but when staring down a nimble mongoose...) I suppose it would be fine as a 1- or 2- off though...

@ your new list:

My opposition to more discard is this: If you run too much, even if you Top it away, it's still chaff stuck on the Top 3 cards, reducing the number of useful cards you see with each subsequent use of Top (until you reach a Fetchland or Shuffle Effect, at least). The problem with discard is that the decks packing Top can just hide their answers on the top of their decks, and same for with Brainstorm; and Landstill can just afford to topdeck into one of the many answers for Exalted Angel that it plays, Goblins would just ignore Angel (1 Angel wouldn't be enough, probably), and that's about the DtBs. As janky as it seems, Extirpate on StP seems almost hawt here, except that it may take too long to set up (and end up getting overrun by a horde of large green creatures)...

As for the Sideboard, 2 Engineered Plague seems 2 too few -- the main strength of Plague seems to be 2 Plagues on Goblins for many time walks, and with only 2 you wouldn't see them often enough... Also, what do you SB out for Withered Wretch?

You overstate the strength of Grunt and Wretch, btw, I believe. In no way does Wretch rape graveyards as much as you think it does -- and shrinking Goyfs as much as you suggested would take 2-3 turns of mana; and a 4/5, then next turn a 3/4, and then a 2/3, is still 9 points of damage. I dunno about you, but when playing Deadguy our life total is spent so fast that I don't want to waste a single point of it... Grunt can be easily killed by Swords and the cantrips they play enable them to quickly find another Swords, before you find another equivalent threat.

@jebus:

Refer to above argument on more discard. The thing is, we need more discard that has a use outside of just being a discard spell, since Discard spells are so often dead cards. Being a creature is one such possibility, although Sculler and Fiend are definitely not it, since they're so conditional as disruption (and hardly effective). It's not beaters we need, nor is it discard. It's utility, or hybrid discard AND some other effect, to provide versatility, as discard as a strategy is so conditional it's hardly funny. And that is probably what the deck lacks (as discard is so dead against Goyf).

EDIT: Off-topic, I know, but in a WWb build with Vial (like the ones posted on this thread a while back), I'm wondering if Sculler is playable, the rationale being that he can be played off an AEther Vial?

[jebus]

@jebus:

Refer to above argument on more discard. The thing is, we need more discard that has a use outside of just being a discard spell, since Discard spells are so often dead cards. Being a creature is one such possibility, although Sculler and Fiend are definitely not it, since they're so conditional as disruption (and hardly effective). It's not beaters we need, nor is it discard. It's utility, or hybrid discard AND some other effect, to provide versatility, as discard as a strategy is so conditional it's hardly funny. And that is probably what the deck lacks (as discard is so dead against Goyf).

Well, I did say IF extra disruption is needed. :tongue: Sculler and Fiend are just so... meh. They're slower than Duress, and they're lightning rods for removal. If you're running them (sans Vial, which you've suggested), you're better off with Duress.

As for the need for utility... what do you want to do with the deck, anyway? The decks aims to disrupt your opponent, play cheap threats, and reload with Confidant. That's what the deck is, and judging by how it current matchups are, this strategy might just be a bit outdated. If you're looking for something more, then it's either (1) take the deck apart and rebuild it from the ground up, or (2) splash another color / strategy in. B and W just don't provide enough muscle (that is, muscle that is fast enough) to make the deck more dangerous, and they lack the type of utility this deck needs. Right now, the only card off the top of my head that augments this decks strategy while providing utility is Extirpate, and I'm sure that has been covered extensively already.

Personally, the Bwg version, with 4 Goyf and 2-3 Deeds maindeck, plus Krosan Grip / Choke in the SB, plays out a lot better than a straight Bw build does.

Also, on Confidant vs Arena: I've always thought turn 2 Confidant is a weak play, as you haven't disrupted your opponent enough to ensure its survival. Arena also plays nice with Tombstalker, and does not need SDT just for it to not kill you.

[Hummingbird TG]

To clarify, on utility: When I said utility, I meant cards that serve multiple purposes at once, thereby adding to the deck's versatility. Naturally, those cards would have to serve one or more (preferably more) of the deck's main needs, namely Hand destruction, Land Destruction, Permanent Destruction, draw, or threats, rather than some niche slot which hardly does anything on its own (and preferably, even at the above aspects still be powerful in its own right).

Some examples of the versatility in the deck would be Dark Confidant (good draw/bad threat), Vindicate (Creature Destruction/Land Destruction/Arti/Enchantment Destruction), Hyppie (though it is hardly played nowadays) (Hand Destruction/threat), Jotun Grunt (weakens Goyf/threat).

As we notice from the above, there isn't any hand destruction card with any side purpose. As of now, I don't think one that is playable even exists. However, hand destruction is, as mentioned in my earlier post, very conditional -- and thus, even a good discard spell like Thoughtseize makes a horrible topdeck late game - a problem which could be solved if some effect were tagged on at no cost to the potency of the spell itself (that is, I would definitely play a 2/2 Castigate, assuming it did not come with a condition, like the Sculler).

On Confidant versus Arena, Turn 2 Confidant is good against a number of decks after a turn 1 Thoughtseize, should that resolve, namely Thresh (assuming we push past their counters), since they spend some turns cantripping and we desperately need the extra draw for creatures.

In other news, a radical proposal, I know, but what about playing Duress instead of Thoughtseize? Yes, Thoughtseize can get creatures, but with newer builds playing so much removal, I question the need to lose 2 life. I'm not saying, of course, that if we regularly take creatures away with Thoughtseize we should swap it for Duress just to gain the 2 life, but that if we only take Creatures rarely (and in the DtB forum, for example, against most of the decks there we would rather take cards other than creatures if those exist (such as Counterbalance, Top, creature kill (in Landstill's case), and such). Do we take creatures often enough to justify Thoughtseize?

And about the AEther Vial and Sculler thing, what I meant was, is Sculler playable EVEN with AEther Vial to play him for free, or would I do better with another "real" creature instead? (Not that I'm suggesting AEther Vial in Deadguy of course, just an off topic question...

[jebus]

I guess if you maindeck StP then dropping Thoughtseize for Duress would be defensible. I'm testing 4 Seize 2 Duress right now, I could do a 3/3 split to see which performs better more consistently.

Anyway, that was what I was driving at... what the deck needs is not to be found in its current card pool. Grunt and Hyppie are perhaps the best of all those multifunctional options, but they've been in and out of the deck already.

[Captain Hammer]

Also, on Confidant vs Arena: I've always thought turn 2 Confidant is a weak play, as you haven't disrupted your opponent enough to ensure its survival. Arena also plays nice with Tombstalker, and does not need SDT just for it to not kill you.

I think you make a solid point about Arena. It really is rather underused compared to confidant.

Unlike Confidant, it doesn't need a 2 card 3cc combo of Top + Confidant in order to not kill you with Tombstalker.

By playing Arena, you also get away with playing higher cc cards and even cards like Snuff Out if you felt inclined to try the card.

[Hummingbird TG]

In my experience, even without Confidant, the deck is slow enough to not want to lose 4 life in any case. Besides, Snuff Out contends with Swords to Plowshares, Oblivion Ring, Vindicate, and EE, for removal slots, and not only is the ability to kill Tombstalker (for StP, O-Ring, and Vindicate), and CB (O-Ring, EE, Vindicate), relevant, but Snuff Out is just narrow and doesn't fit the needs of the deck (versatility).

I'll also agree with Jebus and pi4meterftw on Arena, but mainly for the fact that it's uncounterable by CB than the worry of taking 8 from Stalker, who is worse than Angel in most modern builds often, anyway.

[Tao]

Also, on Confidant vs Arena: I've always thought turn 2 Confidant is a weak play, as you haven't disrupted your opponent enough to ensure its survival. Arena also plays nice with Tombstalker, and does not need SDT just for it to not kill you.

It is never Confidant vs. anything. Confidant is strictly a 4-off in this deck called B/W Confidant. Removing or reducing Confidants makes it a different deck which would need an own thread.

[Hummingbird TG]

In a way you could say that, but Confidant has become so weak in this current Legacy Format, that a list without Confidant could actually be posited to be the evolution, perhaps natural evolution, of this deck.

[Tao]

but Confidant has become so weak in this current Legacy Format.

Why is he weak? Confi is only bad against Red, and currently Red is no longer in the Format except for Goblins.

[Joon]

And Goyf Sligh. And Red Thresh.

But I don't see how you can cut Confidants in a deck that's named "BW Confidant". But if you want to go in that direction check out "Eva White".

[Valarne]

Nice with all this activity!

And a lot of interesting things discussed.

@ Phyrexian Arena: It does sound like it should merit some testing (I certainly will try a single one in my Doran Rock). I don't think that Confidant is weak though. In a format with a lot of Fanatics, he would be, and if Zoo goes rampant, then yeah maybe he should be replaced. But oftentimes he draws you a lot of cards, and perform some beats as well. And I rarely worry when he is without SDT on the table. The notion of adding 4 Tombstalkers, and going Arena instead of Confidant is interesting though, and should be tested.
By the way, SDT is always a good card when you're running fetches. So calling SDT/Confidant a combo seems unfair.

On the discussion of discard and land destruction: Hymns and Verdicts can be ld as well, and removing a guys hand because he is mana screwed, isn't a bad thing as such. That aside, it would be interesting to see how a deck focused on discard and non-land permanent destruction, would do (Path to Exile might go in here).

Good points on the different types of discard. I have yet to find the time to actually test Sculler - but I certainly want to do it, before it is shrugged of.

[Hummingbird TG]

Just a random thought: for a build without Wasteland, is Mishra's Factory playable, perhaps as a 2-or 3-of? Mongeese get annoying, and Factory can trade with them and can't be countered (and if they Swords it that's one less Swords that goes on Angel or Grunt). It can also attack, especially when you're trying to topdeck something worthwhile and end up only ripping disruption off the top, which happens often.

[pi4meterftw]

I don't get why all the decks are running so few threats. The clear response to the (valid) concern of the deadness of discard is to weaken them with discard, then play a big guy and end the game before they start ripping finishers off the top.

I think tombstalker and angel are both warranted. This would probably encourage shifts away from Confidant to arena. Confidant is not an early cast anyway. I never cast it on turn 2, unless I draw like 3. MAYBE 2. But definitely not if I "only" draw 1 which is the vast majority of the time when you do even draw it. As such, in a way I almost think of arena now as strictly better than confidant, since the 2/1 body is a bad thing, not a good one.

But you do want more than 4 phyrexian arenas, so I think the addition of a few confidants may be justified. Furthermore, as I hinted earlier, if you run tombstalker and angel, a few unlucky rips with confidant could actually end the game, whereas before not so much. Also, i may be looking at nantuko shade again as a 1x or 2x. I think cursed scroll was good in the old build, but theoretically seems to be bad in a deck running say 10 creatures instead of 7. (I would not run 4 Tombstalkers, for the negative interactions among them.) Engineered explosives and plague are both too conditional in my limited testing. I like swords/vindicate/oring.

[Valarne]

I don't get why all the decks are running so few threats. The clear response to the (valid) concern of the deadness of discard is to weaken them with discard, then play a big guy and end the game before they start ripping finishers off the top.

I think tombstalker and angel are both warranted. This would probably encourage shifts away from Confidant to arena. Confidant is not an early cast anyway. I never cast it on turn 2, unless I draw like 3. MAYBE 2. But definitely not if I "only" draw 1 which is the vast majority of the time when you do even draw it. As such, in a way I almost think of arena now as strictly better than confidant, since the 2/1 body is a bad thing, not a good one.

But you do want more than 4 phyrexian arenas, so I think the addition of a few confidants may be justified. Furthermore, as I hinted earlier, if you run tombstalker and angel, a few unlucky rips with confidant could actually end the game, whereas before not so much. Also, i may be looking at nantuko shade again as a 1x or 2x. I think cursed scroll was good in the old build, but theoretically seems to be bad in a deck running say 10 creatures instead of 7. (I would not run 4 Tombstalkers, for the negative interactions among them.) Engineered explosives and plague are both too conditional in my limited testing. I like swords/vindicate/oring.

Yeah, your reasoning around Confidant/Arena is sound. I never prefer to play Confidant until turn 3 or 4, using the first turns to disrupt, and therebye make it easier for him to survive. This would go for Arena as well, but Arena would have a much better chance of resolving and surviving. It usually would bypass Counterbalance and most activated Explosives - and Spell Snare is out of the picture - and of course all the creature removal is irrelevant.

By the way, if this discussion turns out to move Phyrexian Arena in Dark Confidants place, I don't think that this should merit a new thread. Things change, and this thread is long, and display a lot of thought given to a B/W strategy of discard/LD and beats. In half a year the metagame could change, and Confidant might be first pick again.

[pi4meterftw]

Let's also not forget that phyrexian arena keeps the drawn card a secret. Information and secrecy is kind of a "virtual" plus with benefits only because the opponent is imperfect and because of the idiosyncracies of the game; nevertheless, it is not worthless.

[jebus]

pi4meterftw:
Exactly what I was thinking regarding the Arena / Confidant situation. You get to run the big guys (and steer your threats clear of Counterbalance in the process), your lifeloss is controlled even without Top, you don't let your opponent in on what you're packing, plus an enchantment is harder to remove than a 2/1 creature that never comes out on turn 2 (making the CMC difference irrelevant) and is never really a factor offensively anyway.

This definitely merits extensive testing. The question is, though, do we still play SDT's, and if so, how many?

[Valarne]

pi4meterftw:
Exactly what I was thinking regarding the Arena / Confidant situation. You get to run the big guys (and steer your threats clear of Counterbalance in the process), your lifeloss is controlled even without Top, you don't let your opponent in on what you're packing, plus an enchantment is harder to remove than a 2/1 creature that never comes out on turn 2 (making the CMC difference irrelevant) and is never really a factor offensively anyway.

This definitely merits extensive testing. The question is, though, do we still play SDT's, and if so, how many?

My hunch tells me, that packing more threats or disruption is the way to go, instead of the 3 Tops (that I run). That said, the top has taken me out of so many tight corners and almost-lost games, so it might be the wrong place to cut, and therefore playing 2 might be the better.

Threatwise, I have been toying with the idea of Calciderm to supplement Exalted and Tombstalker. As one of you guys noted, we need to drop a bomb, around turn 4, after disrupting, and I think Calciderm is underrated. It has shroud, and it is big enough to mess with a big part of the Goyfs (especially if we can control our yard with a preceding Stalker). Jotun Grunt is of course still the most obvious choice after Angel and Stalker, but I thought it would be nice to test a setup, that is completely Counterbalance-proof, and the dissynergy between Stalker and Grunt might become a problem. Plus this would make it much more valid to run 4 Relic of Progenitus out of the board, to completely dominate Goyfs.

Having only threats that demand double white and black in the cc, might be a small problem though. Any better ideas?

[pi4meterftw]

I still play 4 tops because I still run 2 dark confidants. I wanted 6 arenas. This might change, however.

[Hummingbird TG]

I've been recently thinking of running Extirpates in the main (maybe in the side); in many matchups we need to get rid of some cards in the opponent's deck that we just don't want to see. Against each popular deck there seems to be at least one card which can cripple them against us, that we can take. I do of course realize the controversial-ness of Extirpate (some really hate it, I'm aware), and this is yet an untested suggestion, but here's what I've been thinking, on paper:

Against Thresh: Swords to Plowshares or Mystic Enforcer(or if non-White, Tarmogoyf or Nimble Mongoose) -- reason being, these two cards stop Exalted Angel, your main plan to victory. Otherwise, you can just use a discard spell to clear the way for Exalted Angel, and barring extreme circumstances, you've won there and then.

Against Dreadstill: If we can get it into the graveyard, Phyrexian Dreadnought -- once it's gone all they're doing is playing a bad Landstill deck. Did I mention they can't stop Exalted Angel (backed by discard)? Of course, if we can't, we can always take Counterbalance, opening the door to 4 more of your removal spells (I play 4 Vindicate, 4 StP, 2 EE, 2 O-Ring (thanks pi4meterftw for suggesting O-Ring!)), making it 12 spells that can kill the Dreadnought should it hit.

Against TA: One of their threats. Preferably, Tombstalker; blocking Angel is scary. Else you may want to take Snuff Out, which kills Exalted Angel.

Against Combo: I have no experience here, but I'm guessing there are some cards that you would want to take, but I'm not sure which.

Against Landstill: Well, I guess you do have me stumped here. I suppose take a creature removal spell, like StP? Seeing as Humility can be removed by 6 of your cards. Alternatively you could take Humility, as that card is always scary, and EE@3 kills Oblivion Ring, or take P Deed. Else taking Mishra's Factory seems hawt. Their deck is just critical mass of the same thing, though, unlike the more cantrippy Aggro Control Decks dominating the formal now, so Extirpate's worse against it (and other control decks (and Aggro decks too)).

So what's your conclusion on Extirpate? Would be delighted to hear from you all!

In other news, isn't 4 Sensei's Divining Top excessive? I know it's always good to see one, but you never want two...(and even if you Top it away it still clutters your top 3...)

P.S.: Is Elspeth, Knight-Errant a good SB card against Landstill? She's immune to Humility, hard to kill (EE@4 or Decree of Justice seems to be the only spells that kill her (and of course Manlands)), and can kill in 5 turns with luck. Perhaps Valarne if you want a CB-proof curve you can try her over Grunt, instead of Calciderm? (though confessedly Elspeth is far worse against Thresh...)

[Valarne]

@Hummingbird: Your rundown of Extirpates possible use against some main matchups is relevant, but when I tested it main, some time ago, I found it a bit to conditional, for it to matter. Plus in many circumstances, it doesnt really influence the board or hand of the opponent. It can of course be useful, but oftentimes, the way we have put for instance a Goyf away, is through StP.

Plus maindecking requires taking something else out:) But if you try it out, I am curious to hear of your results.

On Elspeth: It can be powerful, and I will certainly keep it in mind!

[pi4meterftw]

// Lands
6 [7E] Swamp (3)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [U] Scrubland
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [4E] Plains (1)

// Creatures
3 [CS] Jotun Grunt
2 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [ON] Exalted Angel
3 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
2 [AP] Gerrard's Verdict
2 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AP] Vindicate
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (3)
4 [AP] Phyrexian Arena
2 [ARE] Duress
2 [LRW] Thoughtseize

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CS] Jotun Grunt
SB: 2 [ARE] Duress
SB: 2 [OD] Sphere of Law
SB: 4 [LRW] Burrenton Forge-Tender
SB: 4 [FNM] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst

The list has already been justified by my previous posts

[thefreakaccident]

So... I know that this archtype is just about dead, and that everyone and their mother hates braids, but this decks was hellafun back in the day:


Braids Control

lands//23
4 scrubland
4 wasteland
4 polluted delta
1 bloodstained mire
8 swamp
2 mishra's factory


creatures//13
3 braids, cabal minion
2 nantuku shade
4 dark confidant
4 hypnotic specter

spells//24
4 swords to plowshares
4 vindicate
4 sinkhole
4 thoughtseize
4 hymm to tourach
4 dark ritual

Back when I used to play this, thoughtseize would have been duress... but whatever.

I don't know why I posted this, but I did, so enjoy!

[Valarne]

I just had a positive experience with Phyrexian Arena yesterday, so I thought I'd mention it here.
Just a small 16-man tournament, me running a build emphasizing on Ld, and Duress-effects, no Hymn. Tried Fulminator Mages, but they're out again for now. I felt that I had too little in the 1cc and 2cc range to make a nice curve up to Arena's 3cc.
Arena was a bomb. Only once was it removed (by Vindicate), besides being countered once or twice - so it was stellar card-advantage. The matches:
mono-B Sui - 1-2
SwansThresh 2-0
Merfolks 2-0
Eva Green 2-1
The Rock 2-0
--
UGw Thresh 2-1
Split prizes in the final (MossNought).

[Hummingbird TG]

I'm eager to know how some of the matches (namely, 2x Thresh, and Eva Green) went...is a report coming up soon please?

Congrats on the finishing though!

[Valarne]

I'm eager to know how some of the matches (namely, 2x Thresh, and Eva Green) went...is a report coming up soon please?

Congrats on the finishing though!

Thanks. Well I have plenty of spare time today, so why not? I kinda thought that it wasn't interesting reading material because of the relative few players, but I guess the separate match-ups are as interesting in small tournaments, as in bigger ones. I guess I should chalk up the decklist as well:

23 lands, Scrubs, Wastes, 4 Mire, 4 Windswept, 2 Swamps, 2 Plains, 2 Urborg - ToY, 1 Volraths Stronghold (I didn't need that second Urborg, and probably none at all. The manabase is pretty strong at 23 and only two colors. And I don't want to help the other guy too much)

4 E. Angel
3 Tombstalkers
3 Shriekmaw
4 Fulminator Mage

4 Sinkhole, Vindicate, Stp, TS, P. Arena
3 Duress

Side: 4 Relics, EE's, G. Prisons and 3 Needle.

The next time I sling this deck, I'll try cutting the Mages for 2 SDT, the fourth Shriekmaw and something else, probably Tidehollow Sculler x2, minus 1 Duress. Scullers just fit the cc, and Grunts won't work with Tombstalkers, and Relics from the side. I'm considering testing Duskrider Peregrine as well.

Ok.


First round: A guy i didn't know playing Mono B sui.

First game went my way pretty easily. His gas ran out, using double Ritual on double Hymn. Nasty, but threatless. The next two games I had troubles dealing with his Specters and Shades, and especially in game 3, I was drawing land constantly. (From the board: Prisons for Shriekmaws - a pathetic board - maybe should have been EE, but they would only have hit Shades)

Second round: A quality player, with SwansThresh.
Both games similar. I managed to disrupt his combo with Duress/TS, and Tombstalkers, I believe, raced his green critters (Angels were sworded or Bolted). It was pretty close and brutal, with a lot of meat (creatures) on the table. This, and the other separate games against Thresh and other Goyfs, I really enjoyed having some strong threats (7+3), and the Shriekmaws were marvellous in tight spots lategame, were it is critical to disrupt, but also to present a threat. (From the board Relics instead of Sinkholes maybe, not sure, maybe Mages)

Third round: Again a good player, with a strong Merfolk build.
These two games went my way, I must admit. First game I managed to hit his key lords and such, and put on a pressure with Angel, that he couldn't compete with. Second game he is in manatrouble, and its a walkover - EE sealed the deal. (Board: EE's for Sinkhole/Mages? Lousy memory)

Fourth round: One of the guys playing Eva Green.
Game 1 manadenial works for me, and Goyfs are eaten by Shriekmaws.
Game 2 he is too fast.
Game 3 is much like game 1. Board: EE's for Sinkholes probably.

Fifth round: One of the regulars as well, playing The Rock.

Manadenial is my friend once again, and I have answers for his threats. Key in these matches, were probably that I could hold him off too many Finks/Witness tricks, in part because I TS'ed them, and in part because of manadenial. Board: Relics for Mages)

Semi: One of the strong players again (Danish nationals finalist last two years) running UGw Thresh.
These were 3 long games, and we would certainly have gone to time, if played in the swiss. I lost the first game to two Mongeese, which I couldnt reply. He held me from applying Angel-pressure, with Swords and Counters.
Games 2 and 3 I managed to win on the back of Relics. I knew that with one or two of these bad guys online, he would have a weak pressure, so I could sit back and prepare a hand, that could defeat his counters and Swords. Shriekmaws and EE's were key-players as well. Board: EE's and Relics for Sinkholes and Fulminator Mages)

As you can read, my memory is tainted, but in general I felt that I had a strong hand, when I had an Arena, because it is foolproof strong by itself, and almost certain to stick to the table. Once or twice, I lured out Counterspells with Angels, so to stick the Arena. Any questions, feel free to ask!

[ScatmanX]

Valarne, may I ask how Sinkholes have been playing for you? Since I noticed you have boarded them out in problabily 4 games. I an not a Deadguy Ale player myself, but a friend of mine is, and he asked for help with the deck. I was suggesting him to cut the Sinkholes, because in my view, it's a little outdated route in Deadguy, and I guess your bording out them agrees with me. Please let me know what you think.

Also, I read that Arena is that good. Just wondering if 4 Arena and 0 Confidant is the way to go.
Thanks.

[Valarne]

Valarne, may I ask how Sinkholes have been playing for you? Since I noticed you have boarded them out in problabily 4 games. I an not a Deadguy Ale player myself, but a friend of mine is, and he asked for help with the deck. I was suggesting him to cut the Sinkholes, because in my view, it's a little outdated route in Deadguy, and I guess your bording out them agrees with me. Please let me know what you think.

Also, I read that Arena is that good. Just wondering if 4 Arena and 0 Confidant is the way to go.
Thanks.

I don't think that Sinkholes are outdated, and they oftentimes contribute to a win for me. Its just that most good players, in game 2 and 3, actively only hold hands with solid manabases, and fetch for basic lands as well. So the land destruction route becomes weaker, plus, there often is something stronger in the side, something that actively tries to handle their primary win-con or so.
I haven't tried running both Arena and Confidants, because if I run Arenas, I want to run all the high-cc bombs, that I otherwise opted to leave alone because of Confidant (Such as Tombstalkers, Shriekmaw and in part Arena itself)

[jebus]

Valarne:

why no Hymn? It goes better with your heavy LD plan (although you are abandoning that by cutting the Fulminators) than Duress/TS does. Anyway, based on the cuts you're planning to make, maybe you should try +4 Hymn, -2 Sculler, -2 Duress, just to see how it fits.

[Omega]

If this deck could remove the Dark confidant, there might actually be a chance to revive the deck

Phyrexian arena is a good idea, i believe.

First, why cut Dark confidant? To play better beater. If you want to play tombstalker, you have to cut dark confidant. Period.

assuming that you want to keep it only BW...

12
4 tombstalker
4 nantuko shade
4 hypnotic specter

removal 11
4 vindicate
4 stp
3 sinkhole

discard 8
4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach

other 8
4 dark ritual
4 phyrexian arena

mana 22
4 wasteland
4 scrubland
6 fetchland
8 swamp


this could be decent. I havent tested, obviously. Just suggesting. Tombstalker are definately a better threats than most creature played before. If the deck could splash green too, tarmogoyf would have to be in. I probably would cut the shade or specter for goyfs

Robert

[Hummingbird TG]

@Valarne: Without any acceleration of any sort, though, your list looks a little slow if you are on the draw...Thoughtseize/Duress become far less powerful when an opponent gets to play a land (they can Brainstorm in Resp, or Daze it, or whatever), and your LD comes in a turn later and such...is there anything I'm not seeing here?

[ScatmanX]

I asked myself the same question here. No D. Rituals and no Mox.
Then again, maybe the curve isn't bad.
1cc: Duress, TS, STP
2cc: Shierkmaw, Sinkhole.
3cc: go nuts.

But i guess i would try to find room for a couple or 3 Chrome mox.

[MSC]

Of cause, in most cases, you can just replace 3 Lands with Chrome Mox. The Problem is the Card-Disadvantage.
Can your Deck perform better by a margin, that is worth 1 Card?

Clearly, going First Turn Confi or Hymn is great, but how good is this Play on the Draw? Running your Hymn in a Daze is still a Problem, but you are allready 1 Card behind.

I still like Chrome Mox more than Ritual, cause you can at least use it more than once.

[Valarne]

This build, without any acceleration, or Hymns, plays out pretty controlish. It doesn't have to be fast, but it does need to play important disruption in the first few turns. I really like Hymns, and I have played with 7-8 Hymn-effects before, really digging it. But as someone proposed earlier in this thread, Hymn is in a way counterintuitive when you're manascrewing your opponent, and he is sitting with 5-7 cards in hand. Duress-effects are still good at this point in the game, because you can search out the card in his hand, that is either gonna counter your keyspell, or that he is most likely to play when he draws his land. And Duress-effects are cheap, so they are gentle on your mana-needs, plus powerful first-turn plays. Besides, if a guy Dazes my Duress/TS, its cool with me.

I'm not saying that not running accel, is better than doing. It becomes a different deck - and which is better I don't know yet. Its also quite meta-dependant. I would say, that the build I am testing at the moment, is partially built to beat a Goyf-meta. The cc of most of the key cards is hard to Counterbalance or Spell Snare , and it packs a lot of Goyf-removal. In general, I don't think that accel is necessary, because of the great disruption available, but lifegain is, and thats one reason why I love Exalted Angel.

P.S: I would love to play Kitchen Finks, maybe two main two side, and I'm gonna try at some point, but the 3cc slot is too clogged for the moment, i believe. Tricks with either Shriekmaw or Finks and Volraths Stronghold is just great to have available, even though its lategame tricks.

[Deviruchi]

If you want to play tombstalker, you have to cut dark confidant. Period.


I have to disagree with you. I tried 4Bob+1Stalker, 4Bob+2Stalker+2SDT, 4Bob+3Stalker+2SDT and 4Bob+3Stalker+3SDT setups. I can't remember flipping Stalker AND killing myself in the last ~230 testing games. Bob gives me strong opening and SDT asures me that in the middle game I will have best draws.

I'm not saying that Bob is a must right now. In my opinion there is no perfect decklist so you have to adapt to your metagame. Yeah nothing new but still. I can't decide which version is the best: Angel / Stalker, BoB / Arena ? I prefer BoB.

@EDIT About Sinkhole: I still like to have them in game one. I often side them out for game2&3 but not always. It all depends in what mathup you are. Now I;m trying to determine is it better to have additional discard/thread or sinkhole.

[Tao]

I had the same experience with 4 Bob, 3 Stalker and 3 SDT in one deck. 4 things have to come together tomake you lose by flipping Stalker:

1. You have to have a Confidant in play. And nearly any opponent will try to keep it off the board by any means.
2. That has to be combined with the odds for not having a Top in play together with the Confi.
3. If you are in that situation you have to hit a Stalker then ( odds for that are 3/60).
4. And finally the lost life of the flipped Tombstalker has to make you lose the game.

So overall you will very, very rarely lose a game due to flipping Stalker. Imo Confidant is the best card in the deck and Arena is much worse.

[jebus]

1. You have to have a Confidant in play. And nearly any opponent will try to keep it off the board by any means.
2. That has to be combined with the odds for not having a Top in play together with the Confi.
...
Imo Confidant is the best card in the deck and Arena is much worse.

Your first two points show exactly why Confidant can be called into question.

1) a 2/1 creature is VERY easy to remove, especially when compared to an enchantment. We want to have those two cards per turn, and Arena is more likely to stick around than Confidant.

2) Confidant needs Top in order to be good, particularly if you want to run cards which are definitely worth having in the deck if not for it (ie, Tombstalker, Exalted Angel, Shriekmaw... even flipping a Vindicate or Hyppie is painful). Arena pings you for one regardless of what's on top of your library, and using Top/Fetch becomes a luxury, not a necessity.

[Valarne]

Your first two points show exactly why Confidant can be called into question.

1) a 2/1 creature is VERY easy to remove, especially when compared to an enchantment. We want to have those two cards per turn, and Arena is more likely to stick around than Confidant.

2) Confidant needs Top in order to be good, particularly if you want to run cards which are definitely worth having in the deck if not for it (ie, Tombstalker, Exalted Angel, Shriekmaw... even flipping a Vindicate or Hyppie is painful). Arena pings you for one regardless of what's on top of your library, and using Top/Fetch becomes a luxury, not a necessity.

Well said.

[Hummingbird TG]

Sad thing is, Arena still pings you for 1 each turn, and sometimes, when your opponent has beaten you around abit with a Goyf or so, it's hard to survive long enough to kill them before your Arena kills you, seeing most opponents have many answers to our threats (which hardly have any protection themselves, I must mention)...

[jebus]

Sad thing is, Arena still pings you for 1 each turn, and sometimes, when your opponent has beaten you around abit with a Goyf or so, it's hard to survive long enough to kill them before your Arena kills you, seeing most opponents have many answers to our threats (which hardly have any protection themselves, I must mention)...

You can always Vindicate your Arena if you're that desperate. And Confidant also still pings you once in a while even with an active SDT. Both cards trade life for cards; the question is, which one does it better given this metagame and the current cardpool for this deck?

I just believe that Arena should be given a shot in this deck, as Legacy has long since adjusted to Confidant, which, aside from dying as easily as Kenny, also has lost synergy with what the deck wants to run now. Originally, the deck was full of cheap, versatile cards (Cursed Scroll, Hypnotic Specter), but now designs are leaning towards more expensive and explosive cards (Tombstalker, Exalted Angel, Shriekmaw), which has terrible synergy with Confidant. Sure, SDT improves this a lot, but this just means that two cards are doing the work of one.

[Hummingbird TG]

I was thinking, if we play a Phyrexian Arena build (that is to say, without Bobs), would it be advisable to side out against Thresh Tops for Pithing Needle to name Top? (or should we keep it in anyway just because it is that powerful; and if so, what do we cut for Needle (if at all?)?)

[Valarne]

I was thinking, if we play a Phyrexian Arena build (that is to say, without Bobs), would it be advisable to side out against Thresh Tops for Pithing Needle to name Top? (or should we keep it in anyway just because it is that powerful; and if so, what do we cut for Needle (if at all?)?)

I wouldn't want to board in the Needles. I'd rather focus on hitting their low number of threats. They have a lot of cantrips either way, so disabling their Top won't hurt them enough, I think. They run a maximum of around 10 creatures. 4 of them needs Edict or mass-removal. Relics and EE make sure that what they have is small, and is removable. Swords and whatever we have (Shriekmaw) can take care of stray Goys. By the way, in the Arena build, I think Wrath of God or Damnation is a good sb-card. Aggro is tough, and while EE and Wrath aren't too fast, they are still devastating when they hit - hopefully we have been able to Sword and 'Maw some early threats before this. Wrath becomes the sweeper at a time, when we are sure to have a Stalker or Angel ready in hand.
Actually I'm considering ditching Needles in the side, in favor of 3 Kitchen Finks. The stuff that Needles go in against, is often something we can deal with already (Vindicate and EE). Finks should improve aggro and burn-matchups (the latter almost an autoloss), and they can always come in, if something in the main seems weak. Finks is also tech against Mongeese. Running say 18 creatures post-board with Volraths Stronghold, and a lot of removal, makes it tough on Thresh. Only worry is the clogging of the 3cc slot.
Enough jabbering, I'll have me some breakfast!

[Hummingbird TG]

My point of naming Top, actually, was to stop the CB+Top lock, which disables StP (though confessedly, I have to admit that in these builds, CB Top hardly stops anything else (perhaps except sometimes when we want to use discard to remove their counters)-- Although without StP we cannot deal with Enforcer), and the Pithing Needles let me Pith any stray Vedalken Shackles, which win against us instantly. This allows us to save our Vindicates for other threats, and also give us more answers than their threats, increasing redundancy against FoW and the like.

But I can see the purpose of boarding in EE against Mongeese and such, that's very tempting. Gives Goyf +1/+1, though (and against Tempo Thresh, can be Stifled).

[Tao]

1) a 2/1 creature is VERY easy to remove, especially when compared to an enchantment. We want to have those two cards per turn, and Arena is more likely to stick around than Confidant.

2) Confidant needs Top in order to be good, particularly if you want to run cards which are definitely worth having in the deck if not for it (ie, Tombstalker, Exalted Angel, Shriekmaw... even flipping a Vindicate or Hyppie is painful). Arena pings you for one regardless of what's on top of your library, and using Top/Fetch becomes a luxury, not a necessity.

You are missing the point. Of course Arena is the better draw engine - it costs more Mana (that is a huge difference like Sinkhole to Rancid Earth or Hymn to Stupor, I am giving that example so that no "only one Mana" answers come) and cannot deal damage to the opponent.

Arena and fast creatures / Rituals does not fit into one deck so you play expansive creatures and no Shades and no Rituals. Now compare Confidant and Arena from the point that you play them and don't have them.

If you play the Confidant build and don't get a Confidant to stick, then you still play a decent suicide deck with Ritual into Hymn/Sinkhole disruption backed up by Seize, Wasteland and Vindicate with quick finishers like Tombstalker and Nantuko Shade.

But if you play the control version with Arena and all those expansive creatures don't get an Arena onto the table then you play a bad control deck that will randomly draw creature removal, LD or discard.

Another problem of Arena versions is that you will have problems to fulfill the control role against many decks. You have no real answer to burn decks burning you out (they'll kill Exalted when morphed), you can't play a long game against Goblins, a resolved Survival will usually beat a resolved Arena and fighting the long game against Landstill will also play into their hands.

[jebus]

Arena and fast creatures / Rituals does not fit into one deck so you play expansive creatures and no Shades and no Rituals. Now compare Confidant and Arena from the point that you play them and don't have them.

If you play the Confidant build and don't get a Confidant to stick, then you still play a decent suicide deck with Ritual into Hymn/Sinkhole disruption backed up by Seize, Wasteland and Vindicate with quick finishers like Tombstalker and Nantuko Shade.

But if you play the control version with Arena and all those expansive creatures don't get an Arena onto the table then you play a bad control deck that will randomly draw creature removal, LD or discard.

Another problem of Arena versions is that you will have problems to fulfill the control role against many decks. You have no real answer to burn decks burning you out (they'll kill Exalted when morphed), you can't play a long game against Goblins, a resolved Survival will usually beat a resolved Arena and fighting the long game against Landstill will also play into their hands.

Wait... why would adding Arena immediately transform it into a control deck?

What I've been looking to test (no time recently) is replacing the 6-8 slots used by Bob/Top with 4 Arena and using the extra 2-4 slots freed up to go up to 4 Tombstalkers and putting in some bigger threats (Shriekmaw, which pulls double duty, or Nyxathid, or Exalted Angel, etc), rather than counting on 2/1's and 2/2's. The shell of the deck - mana accel to fuel disruption and threats, backed up by a draw engine to restock on said disruption and threats - would still largely be the same.

[Reaver027]

since today is prerelease i think it should be ok to discuss a card from conflux.

i was thinking about Nyxathid as my main threat.
to make him strong i was thinking about 12 - 16 discard spells.
Seize, Hymn and Verdict as 4 ofs and perhaps even Hyppie.
if i dont play Hyppie i could play the Grunt who would be good with all the discard spells i play anyway.

my main deck would look like this:

Creatures 10
4x Dark Confidant
3x Nyxathid
3x Hypnotic Specter / 3x Jötun Grunt

Spells 28
4x Dark Ritual
4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Sinkhole
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Gerrard's Verdict
4x Vindicate

Land 22
6x Swamp
2x Plains
4x Scrubland
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Windswept Heath
4x Wasteland

Sideboard 15
4x Engineered Plague
4x Jötun Grunt / 1x Jötun Grunt
3x Pithing Needle
4x ??? / 7x ???

atm i think i like the version with Grunt better. but that would mean i got 15 spells with white mana needed. hope that wont be a problem. on the other hand that leaves me with 7 more sideboard options. and i got really no idea what else to play. Warmth could be a good card in my meta cause there is always one or two burn decks around.
any other good ideas on the sideboard ? and what do you think about the deck and especially about Nyx?

edit: one more thing. do you think 2 Plains and 2 Windswept Heath too much?
edit2: oh and what do you think about Path to Exile? since many decks dont run that many basic lands it could be a nice addition to Swords. i am still torn if it could be a good fit for the deck.

[raharu]

With Nyxatide or whatever, I would certainly play 4 Hyppies. I predict that you won't want to see the former without the latter active.

The real question is why you're considering playing that over this (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/72.html).

[Reaver027]

i am a little afraid of too high casting costs with Bob on the table.
thats why i dont play the Stalker in the first place and relied mostly on Shade.
and Nyx just gets bigger and got the possibility to kill a big Goyf. and finally i think Nihilith would get online too late most of the time.

i know Nyx is dangerous. but with 12 discard spells, 8 of them that get rid of 2 cards, and the mentality of legacy to empty your hand down to 2 pretty fast he could be a star.

he needs testing that is for sure.

[Squee_6]

Hello altogether, I'm new at this board and I'm from Europe so please excuse if my english is not as well as it should be ;-)

I'd like to show you my version of Deadguy Ale, it plays 4 Grunts main because it uses many discard options and we've got lots of Goyfs here. At the moment, I'm searching for Vindicate, so you won't find them in the list. My alternative is the Oblivion Rings in the SB.
Please tell me, what I should change:

Mainboard:

4x Jotun Grunt
3x Nantuko Shade
3x Hypnotic Specter
4x Dark Confidant

4x Duress (No Thoughtseize at the moment)
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Sinkhole
4x Dark Ritual
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Gerrard's Verdict

1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Wasteland
4x Polluted Delta
4x Scrubland
4x Caves of Koilos
4x Swamp


Sideboard:

4x Spectral Lynx (Hello Mr. Goyf hrhr)
4x Oblivion Ring (my "Vindicate light")
4x Engineered Plague (vs. Gobbo, Faerie, whatever...)
3x Seal of Cleansing (vs. Mono-U-Control Shackles, BtB)

[Valarne]

Hello altogether, I'm new at this board and I'm from Europe so please excuse if my english is not as well as it should be ;-)

I'd like to show you my version of Deadguy Ale, it plays 4 Grunts main because it uses many discard options and we've got lots of Goyfs here. At the moment, I'm searching for Vindicate, so you won't find them in the list. My alternative is the Oblivion Rings in the SB.
Please tell me, what I should change:

Mainboard:

4x Jotun Grunt
3x Nantuko Shade
3x Hypnotic Specter
4x Dark Confidant

4x Duress (No Thoughtseize at the moment)
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Sinkhole
4x Dark Ritual
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Gerrard's Verdict

1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Wasteland
4x Polluted Delta
4x Scrubland
4x Caves of Koilos
4x Swamp


Sideboard:

4x Spectral Lynx (Hello Mr. Goyf hrhr)
4x Oblivion Ring (my "Vindicate light")
4x Engineered Plague (vs. Gobbo, Faerie, whatever...)
3x Seal of Cleansing (vs. Mono-U-Control Shackles, BtB)

Welcome fellow european.

Seeing as you don't have Vindicates, you could consider dropping your land-destruction plan, and go for the new guy Nyaxitid or whats his name. Maybe insert some´Diabolic Edicts or something. Other than that, it looks good. What would you side Oblivion Ring in for? Is it not something, that Engineered Explosive could do better?

Edit: Oh yea, exchange your Caves of Koilos' for more fetches.

[Squee_6]

Oh, i like the Sinkholes. The Goyf Decks usw many nonbasic lands, so I try to "cut" one opponents color completely by using wastelands and sinkholes.

The Oblivion Rings might be the Edicts you want me to add, I like the effect, that my opponent MUST use another card from his hand to destroy the oblivion ring. and most decks don't run enchantment removal in their main deck, so when I board the rings in the second round (normally for the verdicts) I have a nice advantage.

Explosives are nice, but 2 should be the most useful number of counters in legacy, but then i kill my creatures too. 3 isn't possible atm because of the mana base. and 1? what is it good for..? I don't think that they're a good decision for this deck.

more fetchies are possible.

Nyaxitid sounds nice but what should i cut? And imo he is hard incalculable.


edit:

Alternate plan for edicts: Smother.
smother kills nearly everything: goyf, tog, grunt, confi, whatever.
I've also thought to cut the rings for smother.

at least it is a meta game question, if i play verdicts or smother/ oblivion ring main

[Reaver027]

and thats why i want to playtest nyxathid. he could be so good but het can also end up so bad.
but with the right discard outlet (for me i will try seize, verdict hymn) he could really shine. as much i would like to run hyppie over verdicts in my current meta hyppie dies far to easy. and verdict try forces them to discard no land cand. and with the ld back up plan (wasteland, vindicate, sinkhole) i can punish them even more.
sure this is just playing with the deck in my mind but it sounds just too good. and grunts are always a good backup choice to beat someone down.

well i got one more question. can anyone tell me what the right amout of mana and fetchlands is ?
atm i play 22 lands and 6 fetches. would it be a good idea to increase the amout of fetches to 10 and just cut 4 swamps ?

edit: oh and while i am at it. anyone got a few ideas for my last sideboard slot ?
atm i am playing :
4x Engineered Plague (gobbos and that kind of stuff)
1x Jötun Grunt (more graveyard hate)
3x Pithing Needle (vs all kind of nasty tricky stuff especially lands)
3x Warmth (at least one red burn deck in my area i tend to get paired against it all the time)
4x ??? (any ideas for this slot? got 2 chains of mephistophiles here but they never really worked for me)

[Squee_6]

4x Spectral Lynx?

So in the end the choice could be -3x Hyppie & + 3x Nyxathid?
Another interesting creature is Oona's Prowler. Also perfect with the mass discard strategy. Maybe these two creatures could be combined?

10 Fetchies seem to be too much. Atm I play 4 and the Deck runs good, sometimes screwed, sometimes too many lands. But at all, its good. Maybe I test 6 or 8 Fetchies in the future.


edit/
When you say, the Hyppie dies fast... Oona's Prowler has only 1 strength. But only 1B. What do you think about that?

[Reaver027]

oona's prowler is a great card imho.
but iam not sure it has a place in a lagacy deck. hyppie is just so much better.
well i say hyppie dies fast because it will either be counterd or dealt with within 1 turn. sure it draws them a counter or a removal and perhaps even discards a card but i think that i could get better results with vedict,

i was playing without verdict, with only 2 grunts main, 4 hyppies and 3 shades. i just want to test something different.
nyxathid replaced shade as the main beater and i added 1 more grunt to abuse the discard theme a bit more. its really just a test build. but i am i got no time to test cause of exams.

good thing about nyxathid is that it doges counter balance better than shade.
perhaps i will even put back in the hyppies for the grunts and move them to the board. only testing can tell. but i really want nyxathid to work cause i want him to be good :D perhaps i am alittle obsessed with it atm. it he turn out to be bad... well i can go back to shade or try something else.

oh and i think that 6 fetches is minimum. i run 2 hights to be able to fetch a basic plains. comes in handy from time to time :D

edit: what about orim's chant in the sb to improve the combo matchup a little. i know it delays them only a turn but that could be enough to draw that discard spell and make them discard their engine or win con.

[Valarne]

I think that a build with approx. 12 discard (7-8 2for1's) has a great combo-matchup as it is, and the sideboard should really focus on other stuff.

Its gonna be fun to see how builds with heavy discard, and finishers like Nyaxatid, Grunt and Tombstalker will fare. Certainly potent. Rituals should probably be included.

[Squee_6]

I think that a build with approx. 12 discard (7-8 2for1's) has a great combo-matchup as it is, and the sideboard should really focus on other stuff.

Its gonna be fun to see how builds with heavy discard, and finishers like Nyaxatid, Grunt and Tombstalker will fare. Certainly potent. Rituals should probably be included.


Rituals are already part of my deck.

In the end the Nyaxatid doesn't convince me, normally he shouldn't be greater than a Grunt and I'd prefer at the moment the Shades.

What do you think about that board:

3x Spectral Lynx
3x Seal of Cleansing (I think, they're very good)
3x Oblivion Ring
3x Smother
3x Engineered Plague

[Skeggi]

Just an FYI guys, the card you're referring to is called Nyxathid.

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/cfx/49.jpg

[Squee_6]

Thx for your correction Skeggi. I think, now I've found my perfect "no-Vindicate-but-Mortify-Version":


4x Jötun Grunt
3x Nantuko Shade
3x Hypnotic Specter
4x Dark Confidant

4x Duress
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Sinkhole
4x Dark Ritual
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Mortify

1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Wasteland
4x Polluted Delta
2x Bloodstained Mire
1x Godless Shrine
4x Scrubland
6x Swamp


SB:
4x Spectral Lynx
4x Gerrard's Verdict
4x Oblivion Ring
3x Engineered Plague

[ScatmanX]

Why do you want to play a no-Vindicate-but-Mortify-Version? Not destroying lands and artifacts (read Crucible) kind of sucks, right?
(sorry if you have already explained that...)

[Charlatan]

Exchange mortify for vindicate and u will have a good tempo peckage (waste, sinks & vindicate).

Ans sry about this question, but why did u opt for duress instead of seize?


Ty

[Squee_6]

Mortify Choice:
Atm I don't have Vindicates because they are hard to get/ imo too expensive to buy. So I had to find an alternative. Mortify seemed to be good, it's even an Instant (OK, this is not a real advantage for Deadguy Ale, normally I use all my mana during MY turn...).
I know about the problem, that I can't target artifacts and lands... I try to trade Vindicates but thats not easy at the moment.

Duress Choice:
Deadguy Ale has got a kind of suicide style and I think Confidant and the damage from the opponent is enough, its hard to handle all the life loss in combination with Thoughtseize.

[Skeggi]

Mortify seemed to be good, it's even an Instant (OK, this is not a real advantage for Deadguy Ale, normally I use all my mana during MY turn...).
You can Mortify Mistbind Cliques in your upkeep! Yay! :cool:

[Squee_6]

Ah, thx. You remind me of the reason why I really chose the Mortify... :tongue:

[durin86]

This is my version of deadguy:

http://www.deckcheck.net/stats.php?id=59487&saved=true

creature [16]

4 Dark Confidant
3 Hypnotic Specter
3 Jötun Grunt
3 Nantuko Shade
3 Tombstalker

instant [8]

4 Dark Ritual
4 Swords to Plowshares

sorcery [16]

4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Thoughtseize
4 Vindicate

land [20]

4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
4 Scrubland
4 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland

sideboard[15]
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Engineered Plague
3 Circle of Protection: Red
2 Seal of Cleansing

Classic non-creature base, Imo a solid manabase und 3 Stalker to win the game!

[swarm187]

Has anyone seen results with Nyxathid? There are quite a few posts referring to him, but no one has said whether he worked out or not.

Also, I don't have any Bobs so I've been running a straight substitution with Phyrexian Arenas in his place. I like this for several reasons:

First, although Bob is potential damage, there is a lot more creature removal out there than enchantment hate. I'm not saying there aren't answers to Arena, but they are far more limited, and thus more valuable, to your opponent.

Secondly, with finishers like Tombstalker and Exalted Angel being touted in this deck, Bob's drawback may be a real concern. Especially against burn or fast decks like Thresh, eating 8 damage from a top-decked Tombstalker is not a play I feel like making more than once.

Also, the difference in a guaranteed value on the life I lose per turn is worth the extra one mana to me. This may just be a personal style choice, but I'll always take the sure thing over the questionable potential game breaker. While Bob is a great card, I feel like people defend him a lot because of his perceived value. He fits in the deck, don't get me wrong, but I think Arena may be a better call here.

One point that I don't think gets a lot of credit is that fact that you don't have to reveal the card you draw with Arena. This is a huge deal, IMO, because your opponent has no idea what cards you're holding. Even if they know the deck and the cardlist, with Bob, there are no surprises. With Arena, you're gaining an incremental piece of strategic advantage and that's a win in my book.


So, I'm still playtesting both, looking to make a firm decision on which I like better. I mean, double Bob usually means GG, but a first turn Dark Rit. into Arena is pretty amazing too.

[Squee_6]

The Bob can hit, its one mana cheaper and there's no double black mana needed.
Another interesting version is Bob+Divining Top when your playing cards like Exalted or Tombstalker. My Version uses no Tombstalker, but 4 Dark Confidant.

Maybe you should try it the other way: 4 Tombstalker, 4 Arena, maybe in combination with Night's Whisper. Sounds good but the I think all the Pro Players know, why they play the Confidant.

[jebus]

On Arena (again, as this has already been discussed):
Double black is not an issue in a deck with cards like Hymn, Sinkhole, Shade, Hyppie, etc. And the one mana is also not an issue, as you'd only play Confidant when he has a chance to survive anyway, not asap. As far as it's status as a beater, 2/1 isn't really much of a threat, and the fact that it's a creature means it's a lot easier to remove than Arena - which means you won't be able to draw as much off it as you would Arena (and that's what it is in the deck for, right?).

It's simple: if you can make the deck work with Confidant (ie no spells over 3cc, even though those already suck to flip), then the fact that it pulls double duty (draw and beats) makes it more attractive than Arena.
BUT if you'd want to run the bigger, more explosive cards (Tombstalker, Exalted Angel, Shriekmaw) OR if you want a more consistent source of draw, then run Arena.

And, after running this deck with either SDT+Bob or Arena (my version has Tombstalker and sometimes Shriekmaw), I find that Arena is better simply because you don't need two cards to make it work.

[Reaver027]

well i will take my deck to a local legacy event this saturday. normally there are around 14 - 20 players. so i hope that will be a good testing ground for nyxathid.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=315231&postcount=1624 this is my deck. will run the grunts main cause i expect lots of graveyard abusing decks. i will also add 3 warmth to the sideboard cause there is always that burn deck that i am always paired against :D

that leaves me with 4 more sideboard options. peerhaps i should take a big beater for decks that run too much draw ? perhaps 2 or 3 nantuko shades and 1 or 2 tombstalkers ? perhaps some mass removal like wrath of god or damnation ?

[Hummingbird TG]

Wrath/Damnation seems good as an uncounterbalanceable answer to Thresh creature swarms...Tombstalker doesn't do enough to stop those. I say, go Damnation. Else, side in Exalted Angels. Those are always amazing.

[Valarne]

well i will take my deck to a local legacy event this saturday. normally there are around 14 - 20 players. so i hope that will be a good testing ground for nyxathid.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=315231&postcount=1624 this is my deck. will run the grunts main cause i expect lots of graveyard abusing decks. i will also add 3 warmth to the sideboard cause there is always that burn deck that i am always paired against :D

that leaves me with 4 more sideboard options. peerhaps i should take a big beater for decks that run too much draw ? perhaps 2 or 3 nantuko shades and 1 or 2 tombstalkers ? perhaps some mass removal like wrath of god or damnation ?

Beating decks with a lot of draw shouldnt be an issue by itself - but of course they are better of against you than others. Consider some Leylines or the like for Dredge and Loam.

I'm looking forward to hearing how Nyx performs.

[Deviruchi]

@Reaver027:

I'm very curious to see your results with Nyxathid as you run 4 additional discard spells in your build (verdicts). I like to have some flying creatures so I suggest to test Tombstalker+SDT or Exalted Angel (maybe in sb for your red matchups).

About Damnation: It dodges CB but it also kills your army. I was using Perishes but now with the raise of Trygon Predator/Pancakes in Treshes it is so much harder to avoid CB trap. If it suits your game plan than play Damnation :)

Random idea: When I saw that Dreadstill is playing Crucible for mid/late game I started to play 1x mb + 1xsb myself and I can say its very useful. Also it allow me to play some 'fetch-ritual-crucible' hands. It's hard to find slot for Crucible but it gives me nice pressure.

[Reaver027]

so i am back. i went 2-2-1... at least one loss was unlucky cause i was stuck on 2 lands in game 3 with a god hand and was just not able to stop the elves player to pump out his creatures due to lack of mana. otherwise i could have won that match i belive. the draw was vs a white/black aggro deck and i didnt win that cause game one i didt draw any creatures and went out of time in game 3 with his hand already gone after 3 turns.
the other loss was vs a gwu counter top deck. first game took us 30 min with advantage shifting back and forth. got himd own to 6 live but then he was able to recure engeneered explosives so many times i had no chance any more.
game 2 went quick and swft in his favour.

but i think the most you are interested in is nyxathid. i only had 2 to play with so i didnt draw him as much as i would like for a test. but when my discard plan worked nyxathid was awesome. most of the time he was a 5/5 sometimes a 4/4 or 6/6. never a 7/7 tho. but a 5/5 for 3 is great. if he had some kind of evasion i would rate him one of the best creatures ever. but without he is just a very effective beater. he won me several games.

mvps of my deck were nyxathid, grunt, hymn and verdict. suprisingly thoughtseze was the weakest card in my deck. not cause of the life lost but it just felt weak compared to hymn or verdict. perhaps i need to finde something new there.

the biggets problem this deck got is recurring removal and swarms of creatures on teh other side of the table. so yeah this deck needs mass removal in the board.

i can only tell you to test nyxathid yourself. i liked him a lot and will continue to play it over shade.

[bowvamp]

Hmm, is that so?
I personally H-A-T-E Nyxathid (it's the opposite of a pet card for me). The reason why I find Nyxathid so bad is that if the opponent has no disruption in hand at all, they'll just draw him down to a 0/0. It's possible. No matter how much discard you run, it'll never get very big. Maybe against an unsuspecting opponent. But if you ever do get him really big, that also goes without saying that the opponent can't respond to him. This means that you could be running anything and it could act as a 'Nyxathid'. I find that when someone plays a nyxathid against me he usually is just dazed or (if I'm playing pox) killed asap. Yes, he is a must-answer threat but only because he CAN get big, not necessarily will.
Oh, for thoughtseize, try duress. Perhaps you just got really lucky with verdict or played someone who didn't know how to properly deal with it. 1st turn duress KILLS combo like no tomorrow. It could've been that you played no combo. But I think that your counter-top deck you speak of is Threshold.

[Reaver027]

Big edit to make it more readable:
The Counter Top deck i played had no ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh cards at all (and i dont count Goyf as one).
It seemed nearly every deck i faced was playing Life from the Loam. Very annoying card to play against. Especially if the opponent got a Wasteland in his graveyard.
The thing with Nyxathid is that you should only play him after you disrupted your opponent.
That will force him to play creatures he draws to block Nyxathid. You do not play him when your opponent has 4 or more cards in his hand.
With all the discard in your deck you can bring your opponent down to 2 cards fast. That will ensure thet Nyxathid will always be a big threat.
Nyxathid is "harder" to handle than Goyf ("graveyard hate" and "kill target non black creature" will not hurt Nyxathid).
Let them draw cards and keep them in hand if they want to make Nyxathid weaker. While they do that you can beat them down with Nyxathid or Grunt. Or you could play more discard.

So in conclusion Nyxathid worked freat for me yesterday. When my discard plan worked out he was always a big threat.
He won me serveral games and i will continue to playtest him.

On Verdict: I gained a total of 12 life over 5 matches. Half of that was me targeting myself and discarding 2 lands once. I played Verdict about 10 or more times in these 5 matches.
On Thoughtseize: Yes that might be the reason. I did not face a single Combo deck this time.

Start using proper punctuation and spelling or get out of this site. Consider yourself watched. - Nihil Credo

All edits made by a Moderator are still in. I hope this post is easier to read now..

[scrow213]

Hmm, is that so?
I personally H-A-T-E Nyxathid (it's the opposite of a pet card for me). The reason why I find Nyxathid so bad is that if the opponent has no disruption in hand at all, they'll just draw him down to a 0/0. It's possible. No matter how much discard you run, it'll never get very big. Maybe against an unsuspecting opponent. But if you ever do get him really big, that also goes without saying that the opponent can't respond to him. This means that you could be running anything and it could act as a 'Nyxathid'. I find that when someone plays a nyxathid against me he usually is just dazed or (if I'm playing pox) killed asap. Yes, he is a must-answer threat but only because he CAN get big, not necessarily will.
Oh, for thoughtseize, try duress. Perhaps you just got really lucky with verdict or played someone who didn't know how to properly deal with it. 1st turn duress KILLS combo like no tomorrow. It could've been that you played no combo. But I think that your counter-top deck you speak of is Threshold.


This all seems like faulty reasoning to me. Draw him down to a 0/0? So while you beat with a 5/5, then 4/4, then 3/3, then 2/2, then 1/1, and they are playing no spells, no lands, etc, how do you not win?

No matter how much discard you run he never gets big? How is he small if you Duress then Hymn? Assuming, of course, your opponent plays lands and plans to try winning at some point. Otherwise, again, they are not playing anything so they are in bad shape anyway.

He gets Dazed? Then why would you walk right into a Daze? Smart players see blue mana and plan for Daze. That's just stupid.

Come on now, you are being far too hasty with him. He is a huge beatstick that they have to answer. If they don't remove him, either they take a savage beating trying to find an answer, or they waste turn after turn trying to fill their hand.

[Holo_rip]

one of the big downside of this creature is that, with brainstorm in every competitive blue deck, it can be relatively easy to kill him juste by drawing card.
But yeah, still have to test this guy.

[TimeTwister]

Ahoi,

I don't think that this issue with brainstorm could happen, because the draw and put back of Brainstorm is part of one effect.

State based effects wouldn't be checked as long as the effect of brainstorm isn't handled completly.


regards
TimeTwister

[Deviruchi]

Cedric Phillips changed sb (-4 Infest, +4 E. Plague) from his 7th finish on Meandeck Open, gave his decklist to Brian Kowal and we can see Deadguy in top8 of GP (i cant see how this deck can be called Eva Green but whatever). I was looking to see Kowal vs Nassif battle but Brian forgot to flip card from Conficant :/

EDIT: Hehe, they changed the name of Kowal's deck on deckcheck from Eva Green to Dead Eva :D

[Mono_Thematic]

I see sinkholes, wastelands, and vindicates, but I don't see Magus of the Tabernacle. Why don't I see MotT? He's got a big butt for bounce goblins into the GY, his cost is mostly colorless, and it's not like your deck runs so many creatures as to be inhibited by his ability either.
Mostly just curious,
-Mono

[Squee_6]

I played yesterday a Legacy Side Event at the Grand Prix ind Hannover/Germany with my Deadguy Ale (Discard: 4x Duress, 4x Hymn).

When I remember all the game situations, I must say, that Nyxathid is absolutley unuseble. My Shades rocked, where a Nyxathid would have been 1/2 or 2/2.

[aTn]

A friend of mine played a variant of Deadguy Ale at a local tournament about a month ago and did very well: 55 players, he split the finals.

Since Landstill and Merfolk were rampant, he opted to play Vials and a more aggro build. He also made some good meta calls (for example, Unicorn and Kami, as well as Epochrasite). Here's the list. I realize it's über-aggro, but anyhow don't dismiss it on that account... the deck is pretty impressive IMO (since it looks like a pile but does well); I've seen it rip through Threshold, Landstill and Merfolk (at the aformentioned tournament and at other tournaments also).

Creatures (28)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Epochrasite (A recurring 4/4 is annoying for control; it's also good with Vial)
4 Jötun Grunt
4 Serra Avenger (Was MVP all day; especially post board when Jitte was sided-in; maybe Jitte should be MD - taking out the CScrolls for it)
4 Mother of Runes
1 Kami of Ancient Law (CB, Standstill, Humility, Deeds, etc.; especially good since you can Vial them on the board)
2 Ronom Unicorn

Acceleration (4)
4 Aether Vial

Removal (4)
4 Swords to Plowshares

Mana Denial (4)
4 Sinkhole

Other (5)
3 Pithing Needle (Top, EE, Shackles, Deeds, etc.)
2 Cursed Scroll (Should be Jitte IMO)

Mana (20)
2 Plains
3 Swamp
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scrubland

SB (15)
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pithing Needle
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Disenchant

[Mono_Thematic]

After much playtesting I've found this list to be the most reliable and resilient...
4 scrubland
2 bloodstained mire
2 polluted delta
2 windswept heath
2 Godless Shrine
4 swamp
2 plains
4 wasteland

Disruption
4 Thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
4 sinkhole
4 vindicate
4 swords to plowshares

Misc.
4 dark ritual
4 Phyrexian Arena

Creatures
2 Kitchen Finks
3 Serra Avenger
4 Hypnotic Specter
2 Tombstalker

(NO SB in our meta)

Godless Shrine really stabilizes the colored mana of an otherwise very demanding deck (even as just a 2 of.) With this stability the deck is able to run Finks to offset the lifeloss, and Avenger (which is just gorgeous in this deck as the first few turns are going to be spent on disruption anyways.)
I don't run Confidant because he's too fragile to ever swing with, the life loss is not fun, and I don't have room to play SDT in order to ensure safe draws every turn. Arena on the other hand is easy to protect with TS and LD, and the lifeloss is never too much for me to out race with my beaters.
-Mono

[pingveno]

Whew, first post in a very long while. I've been playing this deck for a few weeks in my really wacky meta; including RGW survival, trix, goblins, MUC, alluren, and some elves. All I can say is that Nyxathid has been very solid, almost tombstalker good but it can end games even quicker. The fact that it doesn't have evasion is usually moot because your opponent doesn't have a hand or favorable board position. The plus that tombstalker has is that it can come down in losing positions and actually do some good to win the game, more so than nyx, but that all being said: Nyxathid is worth playing if you want another solid threat that can end the game fast after some serious hand/land disruption. He is certainly at home in this style deck.
For reference, here is my list:
Lands (21)
4 Scrubland
3 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
1 Cave of Koilos
1 Plains
7 Swamps
Creatures (18)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Nantuko Shade
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Nyxathid
2 Tidehollow Sculler
Spells (21)
3 Thoughtsieze
2 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
4 Dark Ritual

Tidehollow sculler is just something I am toying with, he has been OK but I will probably switch it back up to more traditional discard.

[lordofthepit]

Is the archetype more or less dead, with Eva Green being the preferred splash? Or would you consider running a Bgw Dead Eva variant like Brian Kowal did?

[TestMonkey]

Why run Tidehollow Sculler over Mesmeric Fiend? Sure the slight bump in power and toughness is good but it removes the likelyhood of broken opening turns with dark ritual. I'm running Kowal's decklist and I'm not seeing the need for change.

[Mystical_Jackass]

What does this deck do that Pox doesn't do better?

[Gibbie_X]

Why run Tidehollow Sculler over Mesmeric Fiend? Sure the slight bump in power and toughness is good but it removes the likelyhood of broken opening turns with dark ritual. I'm running Kowal's decklist and I'm not seeing the need for change.

He swings for 2

[Hummingbird TG]

What does this deck do that Pox doesn't do better?

Everything, ranging from winning the game, not dying as often to shitty topdecks, playing Exalted Angel, and more ways to capitalize on blowing up your opponent's cards. Oh, and your cards are not as situational as Pox's. By a huge margin.

[snorlaxcom]

Why run Tidehollow Sculler over Mesmeric Fiend? Sure the slight bump in power and toughness is good but it removes the likelyhood of broken opening turns with dark ritual. I'm running Kowal's decklist and I'm not seeing the need for change.

He helps against goblins and in the mirror he beats fiend.

[Deviruchi]

I've been testing Kowal list and this is my conclusions:

1. I prefer Mesmeric Fiend than Tidehollow Sculler. In many situations I had Wasteland/Swamp + Bayou. Having 2cc card that I can't always play really bothers me.

2. I'm trying to verify is Hypnotic Specter better than Fiend/Sculler. Testing shows that it does more but also he slows deck a little but without fast ritual.

3. I think deck needs 1 more 1cc discard so I added 1x Duress in place of 1x Hypnotic/Fiend/Sculler. At this moment results are nice.

[Pomaxx]

coming back to the arena/confi issue i would like to add that some cards remind me of a 3CC Keeper deck i used to play in Vintage back in the days.

so i would like to toss one card into the round when it comes to a "draw engine":

Skeletal Scrying

the life loss might easily be compared to the one caused by Dark Confidant or P. Arena, but when paired with Exalted Angel (that was the synergy in old 3CC too) its not that big of a penalty. the only thing that might become annoying is the fact that you have to make sure that your graveyard size fuels Tombstalker at the same time as Skeletal Scrying.

[coraz86]

I'm trying to verify is Hypnotic Specter better than Fiend/Sculler. Testing shows that it does more but also he slows deck a little but without fast ritual.

One thing to watch is making this deck too vulnerable to EE and Deed; I've had that problem with Eva Green before. (Take nothing from aTn down there, I've never tried the aggro build you suggested, but it looks like a blast to play.)

[Linkin Pac]

I'm considering picking up Kowal's version of the deck since it seems remarkably consistent and not too dependent on either Green or White, but I have one question: Are the Tombstalkers that big of a problem in a deck with Confidants? I'm sorry if this has already been answered, but I know Confidant is the main drawing engine and center of the deck. Without Tombstalkers in the deck, there is no harm in getting a Confidant out quickly and just going from there without a Top. With the Stalkers, must you always wait for the Top before the Confidant? This seems like the only questionable thing about the deck. I do realize the major advantages provided by the Stalkers, though.

[dirtyapes]

I'm considering picking up Kowal's version of the deck since it seems remarkably consistent and not too dependent on either Green or White, but I have one question: Are the Tombstalkers that big of a problem in a deck with Confidants? I'm sorry if this has already been answered, but I know Confidant is the main drawing engine and center of the deck. Without Tombstalkers in the deck, there is no harm in getting a Confidant out quickly and just going from there without a Top. With the Stalkers, must you always wait for the Top before the Confidant? This seems like the only questionable thing about the deck. I do realize the major advantages provided by the Stalkers, though.
I play a deck similar to Kowal's but I use Sinkholes and no fiends plus 1 more Top. The Tombstalkers have never been a problem for me with 4 Tops and only 3 in the deck. I have only hit one like once or twice and I needed the extra card drawing regardless of if I hit a TS. I don't mind the gamble but if you don't like it then you may want to try Shades in it's place.

[keys]

Why play Shade when there's Spectral Lynx?

[beastman]

Spectral Lynx is amazing in this format. If only swords gave you a chance to regenerate...

[Patrunkenphat7]

Shade wins games fast after you play your disruption, and Lynx is an ultimate defensive tool who can slowly sneak by a goyf for damage. I'd personally go with Shade in this deck, but I guess it depends on how you wanna play it.

[Patrunkenphat7]

By the way, I have not yet posted in this thread. I've been posting in Eva Green, although I run a B/w/g version. I've been seeing a good amount of these Eva/Deadguy hybrids lately, and they are definitely not Rock decks even though that's what the Starcity decklists refer to them as; Rock's strategy is completely different.

[Mono_Thematic]

I've got a meta full of burn, sligh, aggro, ect. And after taking quite a few beatings I've ended up with the following deck. I was just wondering what people are thinking about ''Gatekeeper of Malakir'' from Zendiker as a two-of against such an aggro heavy environment.

Land:
4 Scrubland
4 new enemy fetches
2 tainted field
5 swamp
1 plains
4 wasteland
Instants:
4 stp
4 dark ritual
Sorceries:
2 raven's crime
3 thoughtseize
4 hymn
4 sinkhole
4 vindicate
enchantments
4 phyrexian arena (I'm settled on this so don't try to convince me about bob)
Creatures:
4 kitchen finks (yes there's that much burn around here)
3 Tombstalkers
2 Gatekeeper of Malakir (?)

[dirtyapes]

I've got a meta full of burn, sligh, aggro, ect. And after taking quite a few beatings I've ended up with the following deck. I was just wondering what people are thinking about ''Gatekeeper of Malakir'' from Zendiker as a two-of against such an aggro heavy environment.

Land:
4 Scrubland
4 new enemy fetches
2 tainted field
5 swamp
1 plains
4 wasteland
Instants:
4 stp
4 dark ritual
Sorceries:
2 raven's crime
3 thoughtseize
4 hymn
4 sinkhole
4 vindicate
enchantments
4 phyrexian arena (I'm settled on this so don't try to convince me about bob)
Creatures:
4 kitchen finks (yes there's that much burn around here)
3 Tombstalkers
2 Gatekeeper of Malakir (?)

I would -2 Raven's Crime and +2 Gerrard's Verdict. It serves as disruption and can be cast on yourself if you really need the life. I would rather use Chainer's/Diabolic Edict over the Gatekeeper because one can be used twice and the other is instant speed which is better than the Gatekeeper.

[jebus]

I've got a meta full of burn, sligh, aggro, ect. And after taking quite a few beatings I've ended up with the following deck. I was just wondering what people are thinking about ''Gatekeeper of Malakir'' from Zendiker as a two-of against such an aggro heavy environment.

Land:
4 Scrubland
4 new enemy fetches
2 tainted field
5 swamp
1 plains
4 wasteland
Instants:
4 stp
4 dark ritual
Sorceries:
2 raven's crime
3 thoughtseize
4 hymn
4 sinkhole
4 vindicate
enchantments
4 phyrexian arena (I'm settled on this so don't try to convince me about bob)
Creatures:
4 kitchen finks (yes there's that much burn around here)
3 Tombstalkers
2 Gatekeeper of Malakir (?)

Actually, if burn and aggro are both problems, is it still worth running Thoughtseize? Sure, it can hit creatures, but you have ways to deal with them anyway. I'd consider replacing Thoughtseize with either Duress or Verdict (as stated above), and adding more removal. Perhaps
-2 Raven's Crime
-3 Thoughtseize
+4 Duress
+1 Gatekeeper

or if Gatekeeper is meh, then
-2 Raven's Crime
-3 Thoughtseize
-2 Gatekeeper
+4 Duress
+1 Tombstalker
+2 Edict

[Mono_Thematic]

thanks for the feedback, but bare in mind that I'm only running 9 threats in the deck. So having Gatekeeper serve double duty as creature disruption and kill-con (tho I'm not sure if 2 damage a turn is really a realistic clock in legacy anymore) is ideal.
As for TS verse Duress, I still favor TS since it hits Blood Knights, Blastoderms, Troll Aesthetics, and any CitP creatures before they are a problem. Plus 4 StP, 4 Vindicates (too slow to realistically use against sligh for creature control), and 2 Gatekeepers isn't really that much creature disruption.
I'm experimenting with Raven's Crime right now. I like it in theory cause it gives late game land draws purpose (I don't need more than 3) and helps build a GY for Tombstalker to eat. I'd forgotten about Gerrard's Verdict, but I really need all 5 of my 1cc spells to stay on task and maximize a Dark Ritual.

edit:
For those that were wondering, the deck now looks like this.
4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland
3 Tainted Field
5 Swamp
1 Plains

2 Tombstalker
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Ashenmoor Gouger

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Dark Ritual

3 Duress
3 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate

4 Phyrexian Arena

[vlz-]

A 2 damage body can make a huge difference, look how often trinket mage gets there.

[snorlaxcom]

thanks for the feedback, but bare in mind that I'm only running 9 threats in the deck. So having Gatekeeper serve double duty as creature disruption and kill-con (tho I'm not sure if 2 damage a turn is really a realistic clock in legacy anymore) is ideal.
As for TS verse Duress, I still favor TS since it hits Blood Knights, Blastoderms, Troll Aesthetics, and any CitP creatures before they are a problem. Plus 4 StP, 4 Vindicates (too slow to realistically use against sligh for creature control), and 2 Gatekeepers isn't really that much creature disruption.
I'm experimenting with Raven's Crime right now. I like it in theory cause it gives late game land draws purpose (I don't need more than 3) and helps build a GY for Tombstalker to eat. I'd forgotten about Gerrard's Verdict, but I really need all 5 of my 1cc spells to stay on task and maximize a Dark Ritual.

edit:
For those that were wondering, the deck now looks like this.
4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland
3 Tainted Field
5 Swamp
1 Plains

2 Tombstalker
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Ashenmoor Gouger

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Dark Ritual

3 Duress
3 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate

4 Phyrexian Arena

Why not max out on the fetchlands?? They feed the stalker and look better in a starting hand than waste tainted field and spells. Running finks instead of bob here, so lifeloss is not an issue and you may be able to up the stalker count.

[Mono_Thematic]

With as much burn+sligh+aggro running around here, every life point is precious hence only 4 fetches + no bob + max finks.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Hi.

I got to try a deck like this a little while ago, and I really liked playing it. A friend helped throw it together pretty quickly before a tourny so it wasn't exactly polished lol, but the deck played very solid.

What does everyone think about a list like this?

***********
Deadguy Ale *
***********
v1.1
Land (22)
4 waste
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
4 Scrubland
7 Swamp
1 Plains

Creatures (10)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Hypnotic Specter
2 Exalted Angel

Sorcery (22)
4 Dark Ritual
2 Armageddon
4 Vindicate
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Duress

Instant (6)
2 Extirpate
4 Swords to Plowshare

=SIDEBOARD=
4 Leyline the Void
4 Engineered Plague
4 Engineered Explosives
3 Circle of Protection: Red

Last time I'd used shades & bitterblossoms, which weren't quite as helpful, maybe it was just the matchups.. however, I did use extirpate which got a LOT of use and literally saved my arse a few games lol. I also had used factories over wastelands... and didn't run sinkholes either.

This time I'm sorta thinking of going the other way, total mana denial route. This isn't really too far off from most lists I saw actually, but my idea was to make it so they have a tough time playing their spells, get ahead with BOB/Specter, then Armageddon and ride that ftw.

Any thoughts?

[dirtyapes]

Hi.

I got to try a deck like this a little while ago, and I really liked playing it. A friend helped throw it together pretty quickly before a tourny so it wasn't exactly polished lol, but the deck played very solid.

What does everyone think about a list like this?

***********
Deadguy Ale *
***********
v1.1
Land (22)
4 waste
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
4 Scrubland
7 Swamp
1 Plains

Creatures (10)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Hypnotic Specter
2 Exalted Angel

Sorcery (22)
4 Dark Ritual
2 Armageddon
4 Vindicate
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Duress

Instant (6)
2 Extirpate
4 Swords to Plowshare

=SIDEBOARD=
4 Leyline the Void
4 Engineered Plague
4 Engineered Explosives
3 Circle of Protection: Red

Last time I'd used shades & bitterblossoms, which weren't quite as helpful, maybe it was just the matchups.. however, I did use extirpate which got a LOT of use and literally saved my arse a few games lol. I also had used factories over wastelands... and didn't run sinkholes either.

This time I'm sorta thinking of going the other way, total mana denial route. This isn't really too far off from most lists I saw actually, but my idea was to make it so they have a tough time playing their spells, get ahead with BOB/Specter, then Armageddon and ride that ftw.

Any thoughts?

I would use Marsh Flats instead of Mires/Deltas. I am also a fan of SDT with Bob. I might cut the Dark Rituals for them because with my experiences with Dark Ritual. They are a great card in the first 2-3 turns, then becomes a dead draw after that. Top does take away from some explosiveness but I would prefer consistency over explosiveness.

[thefreakaccident]

run baneslayer angel... its just straight up better than exalted angel in every way.

[Maveric78f]

My take on Bw confidant lists. First I was designing a Vampire deck but I finally got disappointed with the Dark Depth combo, then with bloodghasts (very good against control, but so bad against aggro...). So that I finally kept only the MVP Gatekeeper of Malakir and Vampire Nighthawk. Let's finish talking. I'm here right now:


// Lands
6 [P2] Swamp (3)
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [AT] Plains (1)
4 [B] Scrubland
2 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats

// Creatures
4 [ZEN] Vampire Nighthawk
4 [ZEN] Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 [ALA] Tidehollow Sculler
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
2 slots
3 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant

// Spells
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
2 [ZEN] Grim Discovery
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [AP] Vindicate
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [6E] Perish
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [GP] Mortify
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [US] Planar Void
I want 2 slots of creatures I could sacrifice without much problem. I tried Orzhov Pontiff, but it's too weak in too many MUs. I could run also Raise the Alarm. It's not bad as a surprise blocker in quite a lot of MUs and as jitte carriers. Jotun Grunt might be the obvious choice: after the last attack, I sac it to cabal therapy. Mother of Runes looks also like a nice option. I really can't make my mind on what's best. I even considered Temple Acolyte as good jitte carrier, and a creature I could sacrifice easily to cabal therapy. What's your oppinion about this?

[adrieng]

I want 2 slots of creatures I could sacrifice without much problem. I tried Orzhov Pontiff, but it's too weak in too many MUs. I could run also Raise the Alarm. It's not bad as a surprise blocker in quite a lot of MUs and as jitte carriers. Jotun Grunt might be the obvious choice: after the last attack, I sac it to cabal therapy. Mother of Runes looks also like a nice option. I really can't make my mind on what's best. I even considered Temple Acolyte as good jitte carrier, and a creature I could sacrifice easily to cabal therapy. What's your oppinion about this?

What about mother of the rune ? It can protect dark or tidehollow

[Joon]

Yep, Mother of Runes or some persisting creature come to mind. I would add a lone Volrath's Stronghold too.

[Maveric78f]

I tested a lot Volrath and it was more a problem of not having B than a use in long games. I'm not even decided for plains#2.

Finks is maybe another option (but it's a bit expensive). Yesterday I tried a bit Jotun but I've never drawn it, so difficult to say what I would have liked to see.

The deck does not have a lot of good turn 2 play:
- Tidehollow
- DC
- Top (play and activate it)

It odesn't even make it good againt spell snare since I play a lot of 2CC that I don't want by turn 2 (jitte, Grim Discovery, Gatekeeper of Malakir and Jotun if I play it).

Other ideas in these 2 slots:
- Withered Wretch
- Nantuko Shade

Maybe 1 of each, as they are bad in multiple, very mana extensive and both face Tarmogoyf with not much of a problem.

[Valarne]

I like your setup of utilizing Therapy and Jitte. It looks good. As to turn two - I would say a decent and realistic play would be Therapy, Swords -if you ran it. I'm sure you have tested and rejected Swords, but are you sure it doesnt fit? Maybe cut back on Vindicates?
How does Grim Discovery feel? Is it stellar or decent or?

I think your list looks a bit heavy on the 3cc + Elspeth, especially running 21 lands. Maybe cut 2 of the 3cc critters, and thereby make room for both full Swords and Vindicates? This of course collides with your desire of getting more creatures in the mix. Raise the Alarm, or if your manabase could support it, Spectral Procession, seems good.

Edit: What about Bitterblossom?

[lorddotm]

5 SwampThresh
4 WastelandThresh
4 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats

4 Tombstalker
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Dark Confidant

4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Torach
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
3 Sensei's Divining Top

[ScatmanX]

...
Oh my god! A Decklist!

[Maveric78f]

// Lands
6 [P2] Swamp (3)
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [AT] Plains (1)
4 Scrubland
2 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats

// Creatures
4 [ZEN] Vampire Nighthawk
4 [ZEN] Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 [ALA] Tidehollow Sculler
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
[b]2 [CS] Jötun Grunt
3 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant

// Spells
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
2 [ZEN] Grim Discovery
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [AP] Vindicate
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [6E] Perish
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [GP] Mortify
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [US] Planar Void
Jotun Grunt is definitely what I needed. It's good against aggro/sligh, being a tempo factor (it's a 4/4 wall during 2 turns at least). The time I find and play my best cards (Nighthawk, jitte and Elspeth). It's good against control, because it prevents graveyard recursion (or at least it makes it more difficult). It can also end a game pretty fast with Elspeth on the board.

Moreover, it's ok with cabal therapy (because I can sacrifice it after the last strike) and with Grim Discovery (since I can resurrect it once it's dead).

I'm really enjoying this list. It played a LOT of anti-creatures and it has really nice weapons to beat control (discard + Vindicate + Elspeth). The MU against combo are clearly its weakness. I've already experienced several times that 12 targetted discards were not enough. I would need some SB solutions, trinisphere and canonist are probably the best options, but as my meta has almost no combo deck, I prefer to keep it as it is.

[miko]

You are almost exclusively running cc2 creatures. Would not Vial be an interesting addition?
Would even make a green-splash (2 Bayous - 4 Goyfs) supportable.

[Maveric78f]

With 12 discard spells and 2 Grim Discovery, I don't really fear counterspells on creatures and Gatekeeper is definitely not combo with vial. Moreover, my expensive spells are noncreature, meaning that vial could only replace active spells (and not lands). Definitely not a vial deck.

[Mono_Thematic]

@Maverick: How are you finding Vampire Nighthawk as compares to Hypnotic Spectre? I ended up dropping Hippie due to fragility in my burn heavy meta, but since I like new shiny things Nighthawk caught my eye as a possible replacement.
-Mono

[Morgothar]

Hello,
greeting all.

As I have said in “Introduce yourself here”, I play this deck for about four years. With it I went to Eurovino4 of Milan (tournament of 300 players around), more sympathy for it, because I was really convinced to win, in fact I had already almost finished the Eva Green deck building: in Italy long is the conviction that Deadguy is no longer competitive now.

Instead, although the tournament has gone wrong, I was very surprised by the performance of the deck. I lost because I haven’t assembled Tormod’s crypt, & I chose to use the version Bw with nantuko shade, instead of Bwg version, with Tarmogoyf. The nantuko shade is a useful card only around the fifth turn, therefore it’s unable to deal all new fast beaters of the format.

For this reason I decided to try again to develop this project, but since in Italy it does not receive consideration, I hope to find in you the most interested speakers.

I ask only one thing: you don’t tell me to give up hypnotic specter & sinkhole, without a very good argument, becouse for this reason I decided to get away by Brian Kowal deck-list (top 8 to Chicago GP).

In summary, the deck builds its cards on four areas:

- Mana-denial (sinkhole, vindicate, wasteland)
- Hand-denial (hymn to tourach, thoughtseize, hypnotic specter)
- Board control (swords to plowshares, vindicate, hypnotic specter)
- Manabase.

For this reason it has a bad top deck, becouse it will always statistical average of one good card on four, however the deck remedy it, because, for same average, I will be sure to drow at least 2-3 game-breaker spells in ten cards of first three turns of game.
In this card advantage strategy, specter & sinkhole have the merit, for various reasons, to have a constant trend in the deck even in advanced stage of the game; I have tried many lists without specter & sinkhole, but the deck has proven to be unable to compete with the strategies of metagame's card advantage.

Actually I had already taken countermeasures to improve the drow-engine in mid-late game:

1_ Sensei’s divining top: there is not much to say about this card.

2_ A Nassif-style sideboard: this kind of sideboard can add to 7-8 cards in each match up. More particulary Deadguy can maximize this side to get 2 benefits:

One quality, because it improves the drow-engine.

One in time optical, becouse it adds one or two bombs to be used in early-mid game.

After Eurovino 4, the last point concerned the addition of Tarmogoyf. Even this case I don’t think I have to many explanations.

This is my deck-list:

MANA: 21 slots

4 marsh flats
3 bloodstained mire
3 swamp
1 plains
3 scrubland
3 bayou
4 wasteland

BEATERS: 13 slots

4 dark confidant
4 tarmogoyf
4 hypnotic specter
1 tombstalker

SPELLS: 26 slots

1 engineered explosives
4 thoughtseize
4 dark ritual
3 swords to plowshares
2 sensei’s divining top
4 hymn to tourach
4 sinkhole
4 vindicate

SIDEBOARD: 15 slots

2 engineered plague
2 infest
2 extirpate
1 perish
1 duress
1 tomb of urami
1 enlightened tutor
1 bitterblossom
1 tormod’s crypt
1 circle of protection: red
1 umezawa’s jitte
1 trinisphere/sadistic sacrament

I don't think have to much explanation, in the sense that many choices are intuitive, like having 2 extirpate, 1 enlightened tutor, 1 tormod’s crypt vs Ichorid or 1 duress, 2 extirpate, 1 enlightened tutor, 1 trinisphere vs Ad nauseam. I explain the most important choices (and relevant doubts):

- Infest: Engineered Plague needs a support in the Merfolks match up. Infest is also very useful against Kira and Magus of the moon.

- Tomb of Urami: is one of the most important cards of my side, for that I believe we need a minimum of interaction with the manabase. It function is to set the manabase vs. time-deck (also vs. Stax and Loam) with 22 slots, allowing one hand to circumvent the manadenial to Stifle & Wasteland, and on the other side to death cards like daze (with mana more advancing in each round), spell snare (with dropp 1 and 3), possibly it get out tombstalker from Relic of Progenitus. Urami is not necessary, but often have a chance to activate the demon in response to a fetch, with ritual, or maintain 2 or 3 lands between the hand and the top of the library. I consider it the best mana-fixer available, but now I use a tricolor list & I ask if basic swamp is better.

- Bitterblossom: I need another hate to support Tarmogoyf vs aggro.deck. Some time I used Jotun Grunt, but its slow collides with a Nassif-style sideboard.
I was thinking of using it vs Landstill, Dragon Stompy, Stax & Zoo, but for now I am not able to test it.

- Trinisphere: I need a new combo-hate, some time I used thorn of amethyst, it worked very well, but it was the failure to raise the converted mana cost of Vindicate. Sadistic sacrament does not exploits enlightened tutor, but I haven’t tested it.

[Mono_Thematic]

@Morgothar:
Your deck looks solid to me so I'm just going to throw out some possible substitutions that you could try...
Mirri's Guile instead of Sensei's Divining Top
(-) its easier to disrupt
(+) less mana investment
Gargoyle Castle instead of Tomb of Urami
(-) smaller creature, more mana to activate, doesn't make B, doesn't fill GY for tombstalker or tarmogoyf
(+) doesn't wipe out your lands

Thats all I got...

[workingdude]

@Morgothar:
Your deck looks solid to me so I'm just going to throw out some possible substitutions that you could try...
Mirri's Guile instead of Sensei's Divining Top
(-) its easier to disrupt
(+) less mana investment
Gargoyle Castle instead of Tomb of Urami
(-) smaller creature, more mana to activate, doesn't make B, doesn't fill GY for tombstalker or tarmogoyf
(+) doesn't wipe out your lands

Thats all I got...

I would agree with mirri's guile for most decks, but he runs a decent amount of fetches and Top is infinately better once the SB comes in as it can get the tutored object for on that turn.

[Morgothar]

Thank you for answers,

sensei is very important for my manabase, because it isn't color-intensive.

The same thing is the tomb of Urami: I chosen it, because it gives black mana and it will not enter tapped; his drawback is not a problem, because I use it only in mana-flood case.

I think Gargoyle Castle is better in a crucible of worlds-deck.

Well, doubt on this card does not come for his drawback, but because I ask if may have a better response to Dragon Stompy in that slot. I ask if I can let unchanged the setting, use 4 swamp main deck & 1 plains in sideboard, or change Urami with a swamp. In the last 2 cases, however, I will not have a remedy to the mana-flood.

Finally, I would ask you if you have tested Bitterblossom vs Aggro match up already.
My questions are if to have 2 Jotun Grunt is better (I remove 1 Tormod's Crypt), or to have 1 more engineered explosives in sideboard.

[Maveric78f]

@Maverick: How are you finding Vampire Nighthawk as compares to Hypnotic Spectre? I ended up dropping Hippie due to fragility in my burn heavy meta, but since I like new shiny things Nighthawk caught my eye as a possible replacement.
-Mono

I'm not really a Deadguy Ale player os I won't be able to compare with hyppie, but you definitely want to see nighthawk against burn. The deck in general is very good against burn with 6 MD spells that gain life and a lot of basic lands.

[Deviruchi]

You are almost exclusively running cc2 creatures. Would not Vial be an interesting addition?
Would even make a green-splash (2 Bayous - 4 Goyfs) supportable.

Vial is not needed. It's better to have in this kind of aggo-control deck cards that do something that ONLY put creatures into play.


@Maverick: How are you finding Vampire Nighthawk as compares to Hypnotic Spectre? I ended up dropping Hippie due to fragility in my burn heavy meta, but since I like new shiny things Nighthawk caught my eye as a possible replacement.
-Mono

I have been playing 4x Hypnotic Specter for a long time and started to cut them (now I play 2 of them). In my build now 2 Hypnotics do more than 2 Nighhawks. It's just my choice of creature that do the most for me.


@Morgothar:
Mirri's Guile instead of Sensei's Divining Top
(-) its easier to disrupt
(+) less mana investment

Mirri's Guile is worse than Sensei in many ways. You often want to search for basics and having Guile on first hand is a counter to this strategy. Also there is no option to manipulate during turns which is huge drawback.



Finally, I would ask you if you have tested Bitterblossom vs Aggro match up already.
My questions are if to have 2 Jotun Grunt is better (I remove 1 Tormod's Crypt), or to have 1 more engineered explosives in sideboard.

Hmm, I think that in order to improve aggro matchup we need:

a) more creatures+jitte
b) more removal

Now I play +1x Smother [better than 1x Diabolic Edict in (my)meta at this moment] and +1x Pernicious Deed MB and 2x Engineered Explosives SB. Works good now. 1x Bitterblossom would be in SB maybe if I see that meta diversed to a state when Enlightened Tutors + 1x's in SB is a way.

Last Saturday I won a small (25 people) tournament. We played five rounds and then split in top4.

1st round: 2-1 Reanimator
2nd round: 2-1 Zoo (should be 2-0 but I made a mistake)
3rd round: 2-1 nonLED-Dredge - finished 2nd
4th round: 2-1 Aggro Loam - finished 3rd
5th round: 2-1 UW Fish

Top4 decklists: http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?event=Legacy+League+-+Poznan+14%2F11

My decklist:

4 Scrubland
4 Bayou
4 Marsh Flats
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
2 Swamp
1 Plains

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Hypnotic Specter
3 Tombstalker

4 Dark Ritual
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Smother
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate

1 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard:

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Engineered Plague
3 Krosan Grip
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Choke
1 Perish

My meta was quite blue and grave dependant, 0 combo. I chose to play this kind of SB than some staples + E. Tutors+Silver Bullets this time.

[Morgothar]

Hmm, I think that in order to improve aggro matchup we need:

a) more creatures+jitte
b) more removal

I agree, in fact I have slightly modified my deck-list, but umezawa’s jitte is very difficult to keep in battlefield for qasali pridemage. I added 1 more perish & engineered explosives in sideboard. The MU vs aggro deck is not very bad, except Zoo. Post side, however, with 2 EE and 2 Perish, I believe that it can become playable. Unfortunately, until mid-December, in my area there will be not tournaments, so I must work much play testing with my team.



Now I play +1x Smother [better than 1x Diabolic Edict in (my)meta at this moment] and +1x Pernicious Deed MB and 2x Engineered Explosives SB. Works good now. 1x Bitterblossom would be in SB maybe if I see that meta diversed to a state when Enlightened Tutors + 1x's in SB is a way.

Last Saturday I won a small (25 people) tournament. We played five rounds and then split in top4.

1st round: 2-1 Reanimator
2nd round: 2-1 Zoo (should be 2-0 but I made a mistake)
3rd round: 2-1 nonLED-Dredge - finished 2nd
4th round: 2-1 Aggro Loam - finished 3rd
5th round: 2-1 UW Fish

Decklist:

4 Scrubland
4 Bayou
4 Marsh Flats
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
2 Swamp
1 Plains

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Hypnotic Specter
3 Tombstalker

4 Dark Ritual
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Smother
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate

1 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard:

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Engineered Plague
3 Krosan Grip
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Choke
1 Perish

My meta was quite blue and grave dependant, 0 combo. I chose to play this kind of SB than some staples + E. Tutors+Silver Bullets this time.

Compliments.

I have some notes for you.

1. Place 2 more Hypnotic Specter instead of 2 tombstalker.

A) I understand that the stalker is very, very strong, but we need to minimize the probability of self-lose. With a tricolor manabase, we have high chances of going to screw in 1 match on 10. If we add our other 2 stalker, would increase the chances of losing because of the dark confidant.

B) Hypnotic specter is an excellent partner for Tarmogoyf; if it is used in the first round, we can protect hands with so many duals, because the opponent will be forced to break it, instead of going through wasteland. These probabilities are not marginal, because the chances of the deck manabase tend to have (for the worse in the first 10 cards) or 3 land or 2 dark ritual & 1 land.

C) A lower presence of stalker allows you to play 1 land less (I shall return to this point).

In the extreme case, if your metagame is very aggressive, you could try this configuration of creatures:

2 dark confidant
4 tarmogoyf
4 hypnotic specter
2 tombstalker

+1 umezawa’s jitte/engineered explosives


2. I think Engineered Explosives is better than Pernicious deed on this deck: it is more flexible, fast and not affected by the color screw (we haven’t manafixers of TheRock). It allows you to select the best permanent to be destroyed.

3. I think that 22 lands are too many: 'Goyf in comparison with Nantuko Shade and Tombstalker has lowered considerably the virtual speed and manacurve of the deck. I think we can maximize manabase bringing to 4 the swamps, so you have 8 sources of black mana (with Dark Ritual).

[EssKay]

Did fairly well last week with a Deadguy shell running the Hexmage/Depths combo. I also posted this in New/Developmental decks but that thread seems more focused on decks centering around the combo, whereas this one just has it as an alternate win condition. Here's the list:

4 Vampire Hexmage
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Tombstalker
4 Dark Confidant

4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
3 Vindicate
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
8 Swamp
3 Wasteland
4 Dark Depths

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Engineered Plague
4 Extirpate
3 ??

I had just switched from a green splash, so the ?? was 2 Disenchants and a Sadistic Sacrament to replace 3 Krosan Grips, but I'm thinking those spots need to go towards stopping or slowing down combo, maybe Thorn of Amethyst or something. If you don't think this belongs in the Deadguy thread, let me know and I'll delete it.

[keys]

You would benefit from a couple Urborgs, I think.

[Fexor]

Hi guys i have been out of Magic for quite a while and i really would like to play in a tournament in january. I would like to play a B/W Handdestruction Deck likewise the Pikula Deck but i really don't know what cards should be in it so please comment and exucse my bad english iam not a native speaker.

Creatures:

4 Vampire Nighthawk ( should i play Hypnotic Specter? )
4 Oona's Prowler
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Dark Confidant
2 Withered Wretch

Spells:

4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Duress ( i would prefer Thoughtseize but i have no money left )
4 Vindicate
4 Dark Ritual
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Sinkhole/Smother/Swords to Plowshares ??!?!?! Don't know what to put in

Manabase:
8 Swamps
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland (should i play 4 with all of this bb cost's )
4 Bloodstained Mire

Sideboard: ( just a first idea, i really don't know )

4 Null Rod
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Engineered Plague
2 Withered Wretch
1 Sinkhole/Swords to Plowshares/Smother

I think the idea should be clear, massive disruption and then beat him to the ground. I don't know if i should play Vampire Nighthawk or Hypnotic Specter but i guess Nighthawk is much better in the lategame. Anymore i don't know wether Oona's Prowler is a good choise but i think he is still a 3/1 Flyer and supports the Deck.I love Sinkhole but i don't know if i should play something else instead. So please just say what you think about the Deck i think i really need help with the sideboard.

[EssKay]

You would benefit from a couple Urborgs, I think.

I would do or two if I had them, but I don't think it's essential. Between Bob, Top, and Ritual with the low curve, I rarely get mana screwed.

[LegacyDan]

@ Fexor: I would honestly play Hyppie in place of the Oona's Prowler.

[Deviruchi]

I again played Deadguy Ale in our legacy league to a nice finish. After six rounds I was first. In top8 we played one round which I also won and made a split in top4.

1st round: 2-0 W Stax
2nd round: 0-2 Pro Bant
3rd round: 2-1 Rg Goblins
4th round: 2-0 Affinity
5th round: 2-0 UBW Trinket-Stalker
6th round: 2-1 Wishless Loam
top8: 2-0 Burn

Decklist (the same):

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=30920

:)

[mmmetaphor]

Hi guys i have been out of Magic for quite a while and i really would like to play in a tournament in january. I would like to play a B/W Handdestruction Deck likewise the Pikula Deck but i really don't know what cards should be in it so please comment and exucse my bad english iam not a native speaker.

Creatures:

4 Vampire Nighthawk ( should i play Hypnotic Specter? )
4 Oona's Prowler
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Dark Confidant
2 Withered Wretch

Spells:

4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Duress ( i would prefer Thoughtseize but i have no money left )
4 Vindicate
4 Dark Ritual
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Sinkhole/Smother/Swords to Plowshares ??!?!?! Don't know what to put in

Manabase:
8 Swamps
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland (should i play 4 with all of this bb cost's )
4 Bloodstained Mire

Sideboard: ( just a first idea, i really don't know )

4 Null Rod
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Engineered Plague
2 Withered Wretch
1 Sinkhole/Swords to Plowshares/Smother

I think the idea should be clear, massive disruption and then beat him to the ground. I don't know if i should play Vampire Nighthawk or Hypnotic Specter but i guess Nighthawk is much better in the lategame. Anymore i don't know wether Oona's Prowler is a good choise but i think he is still a 3/1 Flyer and supports the Deck.I love Sinkhole but i don't know if i should play something else instead. So please just say what you think about the Deck i think i really need help with the sideboard.



Definitely I think Hypnotic Specter is superior to Vampire Nighthawk in this deck. You want disruption not life gain. Plus its a must answer card... a darkritual into specter 1st turn is often game over if the opponent can't kill it immediately.

Also I'd try to find a way to add the last sinkhole... maybe -1 jitte (move it to SB) and +1 sinkhole.

[IrishLegend]

@ Deviruchi
if this is the list you posted Ive got some questions for ya...
4 Scrubland
4 Bayou
4 Marsh Flats
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
2 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Hypnotic Specter
3 Tombstalker
4 Dark Ritual
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Smother
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate
1 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top

1. Out of Curiosity why are you playing with 1 smother?
2. Why only 1 Deed? is that a meta call?

[EssKay]

Definitely I think Hypnotic Specter is superior to Vampire Nighthawk in this deck. You want disruption not life gain. Plus its a must answer card... a darkritual into specter 1st turn is often game over if the opponent can't kill it immediately.

Also I'd try to find a way to add the last sinkhole... maybe -1 jitte (move it to SB) and +1 sinkhole.

Personally I really like Nighthawks because they always seem useful, when Hippie is really best early game. Even with just 4x Hymn and 4x Thoughtseize, I often find discard to be a dead draw in the mid/late game against a lot of decks. At that point Hippie is usually just a chump blocker, whereas Nighthawk is at least creature removal with a couple extra life.

[Deviruchi]

@ Deviruchi

1. Out of Curiosity why are you playing with 1 smother?
2. Why only 1 Deed? is that a meta call?

Hi

1. Some time ago I was playing with +1 Duress because I needed more 1st turn disruption. Now I feel I need 1 more removal:

a) to target something big and scary (when there is P.Dreadnought and T.Mage/M.Factory so no Diabolic Edict).
b) to target Dark Confidant (so no Snuff Out).
c) to kill something without giving any shuffle and mana advantage (so no Path to Exile).

It works well and also is a suprise when you have no white mana or tapped. My metagame is full of aggro-control and aggro. Sometimes I wish I have D.Edict vs. Iona [naming white (Swords+Vindicate) or vs. Ninja of the Deep Hours but as a +1 removal Smother works better than Edict. I don't need and can't affort to cut 1-2 more cards to replace Smother and add more D.Edicts. Also there are more situations where Smother shines over Edict and I need +1 removal so this selection was purely economical.

2. Yes, this is part of solution to the metagame but also the cure for some tough moments. I always felt this deck needs sweepers (vs. Empty the Warrens, Nimble Mongoose, aggro and so on). Some time ago I was using EE and I also added G color to have the opportunity to cast EE for 3 mana and for Krosan Grip. Then I started testing Deed as a 1x MB and 1-2x SB. EE in SB works better in a variant without E.Tutor, and in metagame I see around me & on MWS. I left 1 Deed MB as an option to:

a) not be scared about fast aggro (and after SB +2EE)
b) have some nice option vs. Affinity which is always around me
c) have an option to suprise opponent and blow Deed killing own Sensei which gives Goyf +2/+2.
d) blow the world and cast 2x Tombstalkers
e) and so on... there are many many situations.

Both this options are reasons of the metagame I see. Maybe I'm wrong so I hope someone will test my ideas. I'm always open to discussion here or on PM because I know this deck needs so much work to be able to survive in the metagame ;)

Deviruchi

[Fexor]

Yes i also think that Nighthawk is better than Hyppie because he is stronger in the lategame moreover he is incredible strong with Jitte. Also the lifegain is very good because with fetchlands/Confidant and thoughtsize you really beat yourself in the a..

Another Idea for the Sideboard:

4 Powder Keg
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Engineered Plague
4 Swords to Plowshares

[Olesch]

Regarding sideboard options, what would you prefer of Lyeline, Crypt or Relic as boarding for grave decks. Any thoughts?

[nodahero]

What kind of "grave" decks do you mean?

[LegacyDan]

Regarding sideboard options, what would you prefer of Lyeline, Crypt or Relic as boarding for grave decks. Any thoughts?

Leyline is easily one of the best for stopping opposing graveyard combos, but I have also been having some decent results with Ravenous Trap although so far its not enough to outright replace Leyline.

I usually run Relic if I don't care about my own yard though. I do not like running them along with cards such as Tombstalker or various reanimation spells.

[Olesch]

What kind of "grave" decks do you mean?

Sorry,

I am refering to mainly Ichorid/dredge but then also Loam, landstill and reanimate.

Leyline seems obvious, however the purpose of this is to have it in play as early as possible (mailnly from the start). But I have made some thinking, what if early bounce? There are more enchantment denial nowdays in decks and there are even decks maindecking krosan.

Then the thought came to crypt, relic, extirpate.

Since I am running Goyf and Stalker in my deck, relic has too much impact to my deck so this is a no.
Crypt is a free remove target graveyard which is very good, but you have to release it at the right time. Crypt is good, but can also be played around by most decks. Ichorid/Dredge usually can do this.

Extirpate seems like moderate, however against Loam this is perfect. It is also good against landstill. Against dredge/ichorid, sideboarding in two anit grave cards (crypt, extirpate) is a real pain in the ass for them. Extirpate is also good against ANT combo (disrupting mystical fetch and removing mana such as ritual)

I dont really know what to run in my sideboard running 8 anti graveyard cards might be to much, but I dont really know.

If looking at stats and tourney breakdowns, the meta seems like much dredge/ichorid, merfolk, goblins, some *****/loam. Reanimate is quite new and I dont really know how common it will be.

My deck looks like this:

// Lands
4 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
2 Verdant Catacombs

// Creatures
4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Gatekeeper of Malakir

// Spells
4 Dark Ritual
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Vindicate
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Pernicious Deed

My sideboard might look like this:

4 Engineered Plague
4 Tormods Crypt
4 Extirpate
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Gatekeeper of Malakir

Or:

4 Engineered Plague
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Duress
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Gatekeeper of Malakir

[alphastorm]

Ok I've gone thru a completely different route with creatures. Basically I am using Necrotic sliver as another vindicate to try and control the game. Let me know what you guys think.

Creatures:
4x Necrotic Sliver
4x Sinew Sliver
4x Metallic Sliver
4x Frenzy Sliver
4x Dark Confidant or Gatekeeper of Malikir

Spells:
4x Vindicate
4x Hymm to Tourach
4x Sinkhole
4x Dark Ritual
3x Unearth

Land:
4x Marsh Flats
4x Scrublands
4x Wastelands
6x Swamps
3x Plains

Sideboard:
4x Tormods crypt
4x Negator
3x Engineered Plague
4x duress

[Deviruchi]

Regarding sideboard options, what would you prefer of Lyeline, Crypt or Relic as boarding for grave decks. Any thoughts?

IMO
1) Leyline of the Void
2) Extirpate
3) Trap
4) something else

I use Leyline of the Void and I'm happy with it. The problem is people are aware of it and sometimes (mostly when I draw badly) I want something else. I will try to fit in 1-2 Extirpate to asure my gy&combo hate package.

[popeye79]

so i think i may have posted in the wrong thread previously. maybe this belongs here? help would be appreciated...

so eva green doesn't use bob. vesper green does use bob, but doesn't use sinkhole , and deadguy ale does use bob and sinkhole.

did i get that right?

i've been testing a new deck to pretty good results and i'd like to hear everyone's input. i guess you could say it's a cross of doran sui + deadguy. i've been having pretty good percentages across the field really. i can take negitive feedback, but please before anyone bashes it, please sleeve it up or test on workstation. anyway, here's the list with explanations choices and amounts to follow.

3 bobs
3 vampire nighthawks
4 goyfs
3 doran
1 terravore

4 dark rits
2 duress
4 thoughtseize
4 hymn
4 sink holes
3 vinidcate
3 swords
2 shadow of doubt

4 verdant catacombs
2 marsh flats
2 swamp
1 murmuring bosk
4 bayou
4 scrubland
4 wasteland

sb (not firm on this)
1 choke
3 krosan grip
3 extirpate
2 ravenous trap
2 gaddox teeg
3 pernicious deeds
1 shadow of doubt

61 cards i've been a fan of for a while, especialy with a mana base like this. you can chnage if you'd like, but don't even bother trying to change my mind on this one, at least not in this deck.

3 bobs is the right number because you're busy disrupting early. nothing costs more than 3cmc, so i've not been afraid to play out 2 or even all 3. they really give you the gas you need after you're done nuking there hand and lands (though i still don't like him in a more straight forward eva green suicide deck, because i really like snuff out and tombstalker better than doran/vindicate/swords here)

3 vampire nighthawks have been amazing for me. helps with bobs pain, get bigger with doran, versitile removal similar to vindicate, though i may drop down to 2, as i'd rather draw something else than a second or third one of these.

3 swords- best removal. with nighthawks, vinidcates and discard i didn't feel the full set was needed. low cmc helps with bob, as well as being able to hit your own creature in a pinch.

3 dorans due to legendary and wanting to run out threats, in addition to color requirents. this 5/5 goes toe to toe with pretty much everything. this bomb makes it ok to drop tombstalker for bobs sake.

1 terravore due to color requirement, but it's a bomb with all the LD, and with bob you'll draw it more often than not. it's pretty easy to play him as a 12/12, and trample is just cake.

2 dures ensures a good durn one play, especialy with dark rit.. clears away removal, and i face a lot of control. maybe want to add a third?

3 vindicates- color reqirment and you'll never want to play it early anyway. you always wait until you've disrupted and figure out your opponents game plan.

2 shadow of doubt- this one will probably be the hardest one to sell, but i swear it's pimp juice. not only is it LD, but it replaces itself, and most importantly it's great vs natural order, gifts, ect. i even have a third one in the board. but 2 sylivan librarys might work here.. there really are a lot of things you could put in these slots. however i urge you to try it before you knock it.

single choke because you're not gonna want to see more than one, and it's not really needed when running this much LD.

extirpate and trap vs ichorid. but if you know someone's not playing basics, extirpate a color source can be hard too.

i know deeds is slow, but it's great vs enchantress. helps vs ichorid tokens. pretty good with zoo and elves. and mops the floor with afinity (yes, i actulay have to play these match ups).

2 gaddox teeg is the only good white card i could think of for the board. good vs sweepers, force, natual order, tendrils, ad nauseum, ect ect.

are there any other good white board options i may not have thought of?

so, what does everyone think?

[maximumcarnage]

Is it possible for Abyssal Persecutor to be good in a BWG build?

Or maybe even Death's Shadow?

Thoughts?

[maximumcarnage]

I'm thinking something like this:

4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Dark Confidant
2 Hypnotic Specter
2 Death's Shadow

4 Sinkhole
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate
4 Path to Exile/Sword ??

2 Umezawa's Jitte

Could this be good?

[AcidFiend]

popeye79: Most dead guy lists I've seen run 22 lands, so I'd probably up the number by one there. Any reason to run Murmuring Bosk? You really do not want a tapped-land in a deck so focused on early game/tempo. I'd swap it for something else.

Changes:
+1 Swords
+2 Gerrard's Verdict
+1 Dark Confidant
-2 Duress
-2 Shadow of Doubt

4 Swords is minimum IMO. I kind of like GV because its an extra source of life-gain, helping you support 1 Bob longer (or even two); some people don't like it though, fair enough. I'd keep Duress before I kept SoD. A lot of Blue decks debate whether its worth their while to run Stifle. This card is narrower and costs double-black. I know, different deck and purpose, but honestly it doesn't see play for a reason. You want to be casting Hymn and Sink Hole and Bob, not leaving 2 mana open hoping they crack a fetch land.

[Mono_Thematic]

Lately I've been thinking that Deadguy Ale needs to concede the fact that Eva Green is strictly better at Tempo and the Rock is strictly better at control. Thus for Deadguy Ale to be successful it needs to focus on Ramping, by which I mean building a mana-curve that that maximizes each turn at the cost of having random explosive first turns. Under this idea, I think the first thing to cut is Dark Ritual and then as a consequence of this Tombstalker has to go (if you can find a way to reliably get him on the board w/o ritual then I'm all ears). This opens up roughly 7 spots in the deck for easing out the mana curve with more 1 cc drops. I've been leaning toward 6 targetted discard (3 TS + 3 Duress) and 3 Mother of Runes, as all nine of these function to protect the real work horse of the deck, Dark Confidant. Resolving Bob on turn 2 and keeping him alive is almost always the critical element that determines whether or not I win.
Additional, without Tombstalker in the deck SDT can be removed (unless you really like it) to make room for additional kill-cons and control elements.
Anyways thats the rational behind the choices I've made to my deck, but since I haven't been able to do any live-testing with it, I'm hoping to get some constructive criticism about where you think this direct will lead.
List:
4 scrubland
4 marsh flats
2 caves of koilos
3 wasteland
7 swamp
1 plains

3 mother of runes
4 dark confidant
4 gatekeeper of malakir
4 vampire nighthawk

2 elspeth, knight-errant

2 umezawa’s jitte

3 duress
3 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
4 sinkhole
4 vindicate
4 swords to plowshares
SB:
4 leyline of the void
4 ethersworn cannonist
4 pro-red white weenie from WW (?)
3 engineered plague

[dirtyapes]

@ Mono
Deadguy isn't supposed to win quickly with Tombstalker. It's there to win you the game after you gain control so it's not very hard to play without Dark Ritual because you should be playing Duress/Thoughtseize, Hymns, and Sinkholes early game to gain tempo which puts a lot of cards in the GY. With respect to your list, I would run all 4 Wastelands. and I would rather have extra fetchlands over the Caves but I run TS and Tops. I think I would rather run Tainted Fields to produce both mana over Caves.

[dirtyapes]

@ Mono
Deadguy isn't supposed to win quickly with Tombstalker. It's there to win you the game after you gain control so it's not very hard to play without Dark Ritual because you should be playing Duress/Thoughtseize, Hymns, and Sinkholes early game to gain tempo which puts a lot of cards in the GY. With respect to your list, I would run all 4 Wastelands. and I would rather have extra fetchlands over the Caves but I run TS and Tops. I think I would rather run Tainted Fields to produce both mana over Caves.

[Mono_Thematic]

This thread ain't gonna die on my watch.

Taking a page from the UW Tempo thread, what do we think of Stoneforge Mystic in Deadguy Ale. She fits the curve, is instant card advantage, helps make weak critters (Bob and Gatekeeper) into proper threats, and most importantly is both ''Cool and New''.
Looking at my previous deck-list I'm thinking:
-4 Vampire Nighthawk
-1 Jitte
+3 Stoneforge Mystic
+1 other equipment (Sword of blah and blah, Bonesplitter, Lightning Greaves, ect.)
+1 Wasteland
Thoughts...

[dirtyapes]

Taking a page from the UW Tempo thread, what do we think of Stoneforge Mystic in Deadguy Ale. She fits the curve, is instant card advantage, helps make weak critters (Bob and Gatekeeper) into proper threats, and most importantly is both ''Cool and New''.
Looking at my previous deck-list I'm thinking:
-4 Vampire Nighthawk
-1 Jitte
+3 Stoneforge Mystic
+1 other equipment (Sword of blah and blah, Bonesplitter, Lightning Greaves, ect.)
+1 Wasteland
Thoughts...

Based on your previous list, I think that the Nighthawks are your strongest creature and the Gatekeepers are the weakest as far as what they will do for you so I would cut Gatekeepers and keep Nighthawks. I would cut 1 Swamp and add the Wasteland anyway. I would remove a Jitte but also maybe a Duress to add in a SoFI and SoLS to have more of a toolbox type list since you have a search in the Mystic.

[Elvtyrr]

Hey I absolutely love this deck type from testing it out with proxies. Anyways I built a budget list out of what I own or could easily borrow from a teammate. Here it is...


Land
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Marsh Flats
2x Overgrown Tomb
2x Godless Shrine
1x Temple Garden
1x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
4x Swamp
1x Plains
1x Forest

Utility Creatures
4x Dark Confidant
3x Tidehollow Sculler
2x Quasali Pridemage

Beaters
3x Doran the Siege Tower
3x Vampire Nighthawk
2x Joten Grunt

Disruption
4x Hymn to Tourach
2x Gerrard's Verdict
2x Duress

Removal
3x Path to Exile
2x Swords to Plowshares
2x Oblivion Ring
2x Pernicious Deed

Card Advantage / Manipulation
2x Skeletal Scrying
2x Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard
3x Hypnotic Spector
2x Duress
10x TBA


I hate how random the decklist looks on paper with all of those 2 of's but it plays well despite all of the low numbers. The deck runs more than enough removal to handle any aggro deck, just watch your life total carefully against decks with reach, looking at you zoo. With eight pieces of hand disruption main board and more in the side combo, mostly storm, should be winnable preboard and favorable post board. It should have a good game against control by combining the disruption and the beats.

[Mono_Thematic]

@Elvtyrr:
I've play tested Tidehollow Sculler alot, and found that most decks have no problem killing him off and getting their card back. So I'd strongly suggest trading him in for some duress/thoughtseizes if you want more discard, or kitchen-finks if you want some utility.
O-Ring and Pernicious Deed don't look like they are going to play together too nicely. Surely Vindicate, Maelstrom Pulse, mortify, putrify, or more deeds are in your price range.
Skeletal Scrying and Jotun Grunts also seem a bit contradictory. Granted there is only 2 of each, but with 4 Bobs do you really need Skeletal Scrying at all?

[Hummingbird TG]

To add to these queries, I'd first like to support the point Mono_Thematic made about Sculler; I haven't playtested him much, but my initial impressions after playing games with him seems to concur with Mono's views... Furthermore, in this format, a 2/2 isn't going to do much anyway - which leads to:

Why no Jitte? He's like Vampire Nighthawk, except that he costs abit more, dies far less easily... and can win you the game fast. Downside of course is that it does nothing on its own, but that's a fair tradeoff probably for a game-swinging equipment. Also, he makes Tidehollow Sculler better than Castigate, for Sculler now becomes far more dangerous to block or attack into...

Also, on Skeletal Scrying: I haven't really tested this card before so I'm not really sure (I've tried it once or twice but ended up dismissing it), but I'd like to ask if you often have enough life to play Scrying with, by the time you can cast it for a decent amount to make it better than Night's Whisper? (often by then you're at low health, and casting the Scrying would be suicidal, which led me to toss the card from the list) How often has it been effective?

[Elvtyrr]

@ Mono_Thematic: Yeah, the Tidehollow sculler used to be Descendant of kyimaro but the three slot was really crowded so I switched him out for now but yeah I can see what you mean about him being fragile... I will switch the O rings out for Vindicates, because of the anti-synergy with Deed.

@ Hummingbird TG: Well, until after the Columbus GP I will probably not have any jittes. I would run vampire nighthawk even if I had the jittes.

Regarding the Skeletal Scrying: Between the fetches and the spell count having a big graveyard is no problem, though it does occasionally clash with Joten grunt. This is not a card that I would intend to cast before turn four in almost any situation, I see it as a great late game draw spell. Most lists that I have seen on deckcheck.net run 4 bobs, 2 sylvan libraries and 2 skeletal scryings. I prefer top to the libraries because of the synergy with bob and lack of even more life loss.

[OneBigSquirrelGod]

Hey I absolutely love this deck type from testing it out with proxies. Anyways I built a budget list out of what I own or could easily borrow from a teammate. Here it is...


Land
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Marsh Flats
2x Overgrown Tomb
2x Godless Shrine
1x Temple Garden
1x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
4x Swamp
1x Plains
1x Forest

Utility Creatures
4x Dark Confidant
3x Tidehollow Sculler
2x Quasali Pridemage

Beaters
3x Doran the Siege Tower
3x Vampire Nighthawk
2x Joten Grunt

Disruption
4x Hymn to Tourach
2x Gerrard's Verdict
2x Duress

Removal
3x Path to Exile
2x Swords to Plowshares
2x Oblivion Ring
2x Pernicious Deed

Card Advantage / Manipulation
2x Skeletal Scrying
2x Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard
3x Hypnotic Spector
2x Duress
10x TBA


I hate how random the decklist looks on paper with all of those 2 of's but it plays well despite all of the low numbers. The deck runs more than enough removal to handle any aggro deck, just watch your life total carefully against decks with reach, looking at you zoo. With eight pieces of hand disruption main board and more in the side combo, mostly storm, should be winnable preboard and favorable post board. It should have a good game against control by combining the disruption and the beats.

Doran, Nighthawk and Grunt seem good..... But I'm thinking there is a better creature you could be running.... Oh, that's it, Tarmogoyf! Why not? Did I miss something in the thread that says Tarmogoyf is Bad?

[Elvtyrr]

Doran, Nighthawk and Grunt seem good..... But I'm thinking there is a better creature you could be running.... Oh, that's it, Tarmogoyf! Why not? Did I miss something in the thread that says Tarmogoyf is Bad?

Yeah the word "budget", in my post not the thread in general. I was honestly going to put out for Goyf this year but for some reason his price jumped from ~45 USD, last years price on troll and toad, to ~100 USD. I'm not paying $100 a piece for a creature that doesn't have the text "You win the game" in his text box, no matter how good or broken he is. Maybe when the extended season is over his price will fall but when push comes to shove he is nothing but an insanely expensive vanilla beat stick. Yeah he is hella awesome but I just can't justify buying him right now.

[3ktor]

B/W TEMPO

4 Mother Of Runes
4 Dark Confidant
3 Jötun Grunt
4 Serra Avenger
2 Spectral Lynx
2 Sliver Knight
2 Ronom Unicorn
2 Gatekeeper Of Malakir

4 Swords To Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
2 Vindicate

4 Aether Vial
3 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Marsh Flats
3 Plains
1 Swamp

SB
4 Extirpate
1 Jötun Grunt
2 Vindicate
2 Absolute Law
2 True Believer
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Relic of Progenitus

[Elvtyrr]

For a straight B/W build I'm currently testing this list:

20x Landbase

4x Dark Confidant
2x Joten Grunt
2x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Vampire Nighthawk
4x Descendant of Kiyomaro

2x Thoughtseize
2x Duress
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Gerrard's Verdict
2x Vindicate
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Skeletal Scrying

3x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Jitte
1x Sword of Light and Shadow

[LegacyDan]

I was honestly going to put out for Goyf this year but for some reason his price jumped from ~45 USD, last years price on troll and toad, to ~100 USD. I'm not paying $100 a piece for a creature that doesn't have the text "You win the game" in his text box, no matter how good or broken he is.

You might want to re-read the card then.

[Elvtyrr]

The price of goyf aside I think that this deck can be successfully ran as a straight B/W without really hampering us.

Anyways I am running perish in my sideboard and am wondering if you think it is worth it to side in against a zoo player.

[3ktor]

there is no need for perish m8..

just 4 jotan grunt + 4 stp :)

[3ktor]

there is no need for perish m8..

just 4 jotan grunt + 4 stp :)

[3ktor]

Deadguy Ale

4 Dark Confidant
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Nantuko Shade

4 Dark Ritual
4 Sword's To Plowshares

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn To Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate

2 Engineered Explosives

4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland
3 Polluted Delta
1 Plains
6 Swamp

//Sideboard

4 Leyline Of The Void
4 Engineered Plague
4 Smother
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Seal Of Cleansing



Dead Eva

1 Duress
1 Diabolic Edict
4 Dark Ritual
4 Swords To Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn To Tourach
4 Vindicate

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Withered Wretch
3 Tombstalker

3 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Plains
3 Swamp
3 Bayou
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
3 Polluted Delta
4 Marsh Flats

//Sideboard

2 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Engineered Plague
4 Leyline of the void

[Peter_Rotten]

I'm sorry, did you just post a list with no explanation what-so-ever?

We frown on that here.

I also see that you have negative rep already with only 18 posts. Clean up your act or your time here will be short.

[Arsenal]

EDIT: Ninja'ed by the mod.

[3ktor]

I'm sorry, did you just post a list with no explanation what-so-ever?

We frown on that here.

I also see that you have negative rep already with only 18 posts. Clean up your act or your time here will be short.

o m f g after 124.843 posts what to explain !?

MOREOVER can i post my final opinion of this deck or ? it could be here some1 who has read the whole thread and know about the deck...i suppose^^

[Zilla]

o m f g after 124.843 posts what to explain !?

MOREOVER can i post my final opinion of this deck or ? it could be here some1 who has read the whole thread and know about the deck...i suppose^^

bye lol

[C Rayz Walz]

I've been testing with the following build and I'm curious as to what you guys think.

//Creatures (14)

2 Tombstalker
3 Hypnotic Specter/Vampire Nighthawk
3 Nantuko Shade
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Spectral Lynx

//Artifacts (6)

4 AEther Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

//Other Spells (20)

4 Night's Whisper
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize

//Lands (20)

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Some explanations are in order: The idea of this build is to disrupt the opponent's mana base with Sinkholes, Wastelands, Ports, and Vindicates, while using Vial to simultaneously drop threats. So far I haven't had a problem with running 4x Wasteland and 4x Port. Urborg helps, and Vial keeps you from having to play creature/spell on one turn (which requires a lot of B mana usually).

The creature base is somewhat up in the air.

I have a problem with Confidant because he seems to die very easily, especially against Zoo which I see a lot of. He typically gets me 1 extra card, and he also has terrible synergy with Tombstalker (which I think is almost a necessary card given the size of the beaters we're up against in other decks). So I run Night's Whisper instead. If Confidant must go in, I think Mother of Runes must go in as well.

I like Spectral Lynx main because I see a lot of Zoo (regenerates from burn and blocks Goyf et al). Lynx is solid really against any deck that runs Goyf, as I feel a problem we inherit by sticking to B/W is dealing with an early large Goyf. If possible, we want to save our Vindicates for lands and use other cards to answer Goyfs/Necatls, and Lynx helps with that.

I've been using Hypnotic Specter, but I could see him replaced by Vampire Nighthawk. Without Dark Ritual, Hypie isn't so strong, and there's not much other discard in the deck. Alternatively, maybe a different 2 CC creature would be better here to fit with the Vial. Jotun Grunt comes to mind although I've never been a huge fan. Other ideas?

Nantuko Shade needs no explanation.

Lastly, I think Stoneforger Mystic has potential, since with Vial you can get Jitte/Sword by counterspells. It also gives you easier access to those equipments, which are often needed to keep up with Zoo/Goblins and the like.

I don't have anything substantial for the board yet. Ethersworn Canonist seems good.

Thoughts?

[Elvtyrr]

Ummm.. why do you disagree with perish in the sideboard? It is good versus every thresh and all of the NOPro builds that are running rampant right now. I am just trying to figure out if it is worth it to bring her in versus zoo as well?

[Deviruchi]

Necro time !

Even though I test few other and more successful decks I just can’t let this deck go so I sleeved it up and used again last week in our small local tournament. Here is the decklist:

4 Scrubland
3 Bayou
4 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Forest
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Hypnotic Specter
3 Tombstalker
4 Dark Ritual
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Smother
1 Enlightened Tutor
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard:
1 Enlightened Tutor
3 Leyline of the Void
3 Engineered Plague
2 Krosan Grip
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Perish
1 Nether Void
1 Tormod's Crypt

1st round: Dream Halls with Stifle (Magister Sphinx-Searing Wind-Tendrills of Agony kill)

First turn Thoughtseize shows me lands, Conflux and Trinket mage. I discarded Mage because I had more disruption and didn’t want him to get Sensei. Confidant get me CA & disruption and Stalker enough pressure to finish him fast.
Second game I kept hand with E.Tutor, Hymn, Confidant, Krosan Grip + lands. He played Island. I played Scrubland. He played Island, Petal, Show&Tell -> Dream Halls -> Conflux -> Magister Sphinx + Searing Wind.
Third game I started with Thoughtseize: Man-o'-War, Progenitus, Show&Tell, Stifle, Sapphire Medalion, 2 Islands. I discarded Man-o'-War (I had Perish for Progenitus). He played lands and Medalion. I played Hypnotic Specter which trigger he Stifle’d once. Then he went (don’t know why he waited one turn but it scared me as hell) for Show&Tell (he: Progenitus, me: Tombstalker). I attacked and played Perish. He was trying to draw something relevant but he found only S&T + Magister Sphinx which I Vindicated.
1-0, 2-1 in games.

2nd round: BG Dark Depths version with Chalice of the Void, without Crop Rotation.

First game he Sinkhole’d 3 of my lands but I had Sensei to find more of them. I was always ready with Wasteland for his combo. I managed to stick Confidant for a few turns (I removed 3 his, he couldn’t find removal for my third). He tried to go off but I had enough to stop him three times.
Second game was more brutal because I had multiple Wastelands and Swords for his combo and he couldn’t draw any disruption, only combo pieces.
2-0, 4-1 in games

3rd round: Reanimator

I opened with Ritual which resolved, and Thoughtseize: 3x Fow, Iona, Exhume, Lands. I chose Exhume and played Sensei which he countered. He had 2 fetches in play for a long time. I resolved Dark Confidant, but failed to resolve Vindicate (to cut him off mana after Wasteland -> fetch) and Tombstalker. When I managed to do it successfully again he responded with Entomb for Empyrial Archangel + Exhume. 3 Brainstorms + fetches help him nicely. I played Tarmogoyf and was ready to kill his creature but on upkeep Confidant killed me revealing the only left in deck card that could have killed me: Tombstalker.
Second game was so epic! I drew 3 ritual and 4 lands, mulligan into 2 wastelands, plains, 2 goyfs, stalker. Mull to 5 has lands to play so I kept. Soon after I saw thoughtseize-entomb-Iona-exhume combo. Good game. This was like 4th or 5th game in a row in which after SB I can’t find any graveyard hate piece even after mulligan to 5 and 4 draw steps later.
2-1, 4-3 in games

4th round: Fearie Stompy

He opened with Island. I resolved Ritual -> Hymn (Cloud of Fearies, FoW), Sensei. He played City of Traitors and Chalice of the Void. I played Hymn again (Sea Drake, Serendib Efreet). I played some creatures, he stole one using Sower of Temptation but I had Vindicate ready.
During second game he mulligan to 5 and I even drew Thoughtseize as a first draw and discarded Sower leaving lands and fows. I had cards he had to FoW and soon he was with nothing in hand and only 2-3 Islands because I wastelanded 2 or 3 two mana lands. Confidant + 2 Goyfs was enough.
3-1, 6-3 in games

5th round: UW Tempo

During this match I wasn’t focused as much as I should. I wasted my Wasteland trying to keep him off white when he had morph, 2 islands and tundra in play. I was like 115% sure it was Exalted Angel. Soon after he showed me Fathon Seer and I had to facepalm myself. I had Stalker and Goyf, he had Mother, Seer, Stoneforge Mystic + Sword of Fire & Ice. I was trying to rush him so I attacked with Stalker. He was trying to keep up the race so he tried to pro green Mystic to get me but I stopped him with StP. He was so shocked. Soon after game was over.
Game two he had 2 early Vials and 2 Dazes. I Plague’d clerics to kill Mom and Weathered Wayfarer. I had Deed out but for some sick reason I thought he was playing Stifle in No Goyf… So I wasted like 3 turns eating dmg waiting for discard or for him to tap out. When I cleared my mind and the board he turn later emptied his hand putting 2 Serra Avengers into play which I StP’d and Smothered in EOT. Two turns later I played Tombstalker. I was drawing lands from this time and he drew 3 FoW’s and clerics… so Stalker ate him. He didn’t draw any of his 6 StP/Paths all game and any of Wastelands both games (this was irrelevant).
4-1, 8-3 in games.

After 5 rounds top4 was:
Reanimator , BG Dark Depth, me, RB Goblins – everyone with 4-1 result

I had great time playing my favorite deck in Legacy and my opponents were friendly. 4-1 is very nice for a abandoned and forgotten deck ;) Only loss was vs. Reanimator which had 4 FoW’s and 3 Brainstorms to help him. I wasn’t even sad I saw Stalker after Confidant trigger. I won so many games using both this cards in the same deck so I just know sometimes I have to loose. He FoW’d my Sensei, what can you do. Not drawing graveyard hate and shitty mulligans was more frustrating. I couldn’t win that second game even using different cards in deck cause he had in hand Misdirection for Edict and FoW for Gatekeeper and N. Claim, R. Silence and E. Truth sided in as M.Tutors targets. My only chance was using Fearie Macabre cause he hadn’t Pithing Needles but even though this matchup is uphill battle. Some says it’s the best deck so ;P

I wanted to test singleton Forest and E. Tutor but I haven’t cast it all day. Forest was ok but possibly scary as a land on first hand. Singleton Smother and Deed were golden as usual. Nether Void was in SB cause I love this card and in game 2-3 I had 2 Tutors to find it. Without them I guess it would be S. Sacrament. Specters are ??? When I test 2 Gatekeepers in these slots I always want Specters and vice versa. They are nice mainboard help vs Iona naming white and Progenitus but mostly I want a little bit of disruption help that Specters provide. I’m on crossroad I guess.

Sorry for wasting your time ;P

~Deviruchi