[Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

[yougo]

Im getting more and more attracted by this deck lately and due to stoneforger mistyc i think it deserve some spot

what do you all think

creature 16

4 dark confidant
4 stoneforger mistyc
3 mother of rune
3 gatekeeper of malaki
2 abyssal persecutor

disrupt 10

4 thoughseize
4 sword to plowshare
2 vindicate (looking forward for adding a third one)

spell

4 bitterblossom
4 dark ritual
1 solas
1 sofi
1 basilik colar
1 umezawa's jitte
1 crucible

land 21

1 plain
1 ghost quarter
4 wasteland
6 fetch
4 scrubland
5 swamp

sideboard 15

3 engineered plague
3 yixlid jailer
4 extirpate
3 sadistic sacramwnt
2 ethersworn canonist ( might be runed halo)

I really didnt really had a bad matchup with this deck i find it hard againts specific card thaught: spell snare is one of them, the worst i guess

the odd choice explanation

mother of rune: to me equipement simply scream,Mother! it seem the logical choice

abyssal persecutor: this guy has no drawback he his in fact a 6.6 flying trample for 4 and i gotta say, ive never loose while my opponant had is live in negative ive always find a way to kill it, its in fact very easy and its a big hot potato turn 2 out of a dark ritual

gatekeeper of malakir: im always happy to see this guy a diabolic edict on a stick is the perfect creature for this kinda deck...he can be equip!!! very powerfull<

1 crucible of world: well im trying this one and so far it has been very good againts control matchup mostly but still in testing.

so what do you think.

[Mono_Thematic]

@yougo
I haven't playtested your build, but two things jump out at me immediately.
1. 6 of your lands can't produce B, and yet you're playing Gatekeeper who is essentially BBB.
2. Only 4 sources of discard. IMO its discard/landestruction that separates this deck from the other aggro heavy decks. So if you're not going to maximize this advantage then it seems like you'd be better off playing zoo or dark-sligh.
=that being said, if its working for you then who am I to say. Personally I'd do...
-2 stoneforge mystic (you should have more equipment then mystics)
-1 SoLaS
-1 crucible (I don't like 1-of's that can't be tutored for)
+4 Inquistion of Kozilek or Hymn to Tourach

I do agree with you about Abyssal Persecutor. He's ideal in Deadguy because we have redundant means of removing him (StP, gatekeeper, vindicate) and he puts the opp on a fast clock while still recovering from hand/land disruption.

[yougo]

i made a small tournamant today 3 round 35 persons

i finish second, i want 3-0

wr astral slide 2-1

somehow pretty random deck he still manage to win game 1 and game 2 and 3 i simply wreck him

1 land belcher 2-1

agressive mulligan to see a thoughseize wich gave me a pretty solid 6 card hand thoughtseizing out etw out of a ritual and bob then mistyc and quick beatdown

game 2

turn 1 ritual plague turn 2 canonist but still somehow he had the chance of playing belcher and win the very next turn lucky baste...

game 2

agressive mull to 5 and keed a bullet proof hand agaits this shit, thoughtseizex2 plague ritual scrub
and jt gave me the game


elf combo 2-1

game one go off turn 3 to solid fr me i guess

game 2 plague for the win

game 3 jitte for the win

thats about it looking foward for next week

ho and i removed the only crucible from the deck and replace it with a vindicate

[Deady]

So how does the deck compare to Eva Green?

Deadguy seems to do very well again, with beasty results against various tier 1/1.5 decks. I'm kind of getting sick of Eva Green; it remains to be a problematic deck that doesn't have any space, nor the strategy to run Bob and/or some kind of library manipulation. The main problem is that the deck is way too draw dependent to be called a 'solid deck' and the lifeloss (sui principle) is just bad as well with many zoo and other agressive decks around these days.

Is it true that Deadguy lives up again? I'm thinking about switching from Eva to Deadguy!

[Mono_Thematic]

@Deady
Here's my list and opinions on DGA verse Eva-Green
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=207793&page=3

In summary, DGA has consistency while Eva Green has explosiveness. The choice comes down to your play-style and meta.

[Deady]

Mono_Thematic: most DGA builds run Dark Confidant (mostly as a 4-off), you don't...do you have any reasons for not playing him?

[colo]

I'm contemplating running a variant of Deadguy in a few upcoming local tournaments, and my first take on a list is the following:



Mystic Pikula by colo:
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

2 Spectral Lynx
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Mother of Runes
4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Oona's Prowler
2 Stromgald Crusader
4 Dark Confidant
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize 4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Urborg
4 Wasteland

SB:
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Aura of Silence
1 Engineered Plague
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Faerie Macabre

The plan is simple: Moderate to heavy disruption, card advantage via discard and Dark Confidant, combined with Stoneforge Mystic-powered beatdown.

The curve is intentionally low; Æther Vial will settle for two counters and make you worry less about how to resolve critters to do business.

Some cardchoices explained:

Oona's Prowler - while it's a welcome discard outlet for, e. g., Reanimator, I thing this could really be worth a shot, esp. once a Sword of Fire and Ice or Sword of Light and Shadow has been strapped onto it - discarding thee cards for preventing the Swords' trigger from going off isn't something one can afford too many times. Plus, it has evasion, beats for three, and fits the deck's curve just perfect.

Stromgald Crusader - grinds Iona-beatdown to a halt if she does hit the board naming White. Immune to Path to Exile and Swords to Plowshares, which makes it a monster with Sword of Fire and Ice against just about anything. Evasion and pump on demand. I think it can be awesome in today's meta.

Thoughtseize - played over Inquisition of Kozilek and/or Duress because of its superior versatility. Due to Umezawa's Jitte and Sword of Light and Shadow, life loss (see also: Dark Confidant) isn't supposed to matter much.

Spectral Lynx - this was made to be played in a list like this. Umezawa's Jitte + regeneration spells doom to opposing critters, no matter how fat they are. Can get around Nimble Mongoose, Tarmogoyf, Rhox War Monk, Quasali Pridemage, Terastodon, Progenitus et. al. all day long.

Mother of Runes - protects the equipment-wielding critter of the day from unfortunate mishaps.

Jotun Grunt - hates on graveyards (shrinking Tarmogoyf and Threshold-y stuff), vials in as a fat surprise blocker, beats for four, works fine with discard.



The board is modelled to be flexible enough to adapt to most threats in today's metagame in an efficient manner, without hating out a single matchup too much by not affecting many of the others.

Some SB card choices explained:

Faerie Macabre - esp. good against graveyard-based strategies (answering Exhume by discarding this, exiling your opponent's reanimation target(s), is indeed hilarious). Assumes a beating role if need be.

Diabolic Edict - handles otherwise next-to-unanswerable threats.

Enlightened Tutor - doubles as any of the enchantments and/or artifacts in the board. Also tutors for equipment if there's no hate you wish for. One of White's strongest SB options ever, imho.

Engineered Plague - Tribal's worst nightmare.

Thorn of Amethyst - significantly slows down Storm Combo and/or Belcher.

Ethersworn Canonist - see above. Best-of-class hate in conjunction with Mother of Runes (barring the occasional Virtue's Ruin).


I'm not sure if Hymn to Tourach is warranted. Sure, it's one of the best cards ever printed, but maybe a split between, e. g., Inquisition of Kozilek and another critter would be a better fit for the rest of this list. I'm quite sure that not running Dark Ritual is the right choice for the list, as consistentcy matters more than potential explosiveness in today's Legacy imho.


Comments appreciated :)

[Mono_Thematic]

@Deady concerning Bob:
Bob takes up all your mana on T2 for a 2/1 body. If he survives two turns you get two cards, maybe deals 4 damage, and you lose x life.
Night's Whisper takes up all your mana on T2 and immediately gets you two cards and you lose 2 life.

So it comes down to how much you value that 4 damage. My build runs 'stalkers (a 4 round clock) and persecutors (a 3 round clock), so dealing 4 damage doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot to me. What does matter to me is consistantly hitting my 3rd land drop, digging into disruption, and getting beaters onto the table while the opp. is still reeling from the discard. For all these things Night's Whisper/Sign in Blood is just plain better.

Granted I have a LOT of burn/aggro/aggro-burn in my meta, and it is because of this that I have no faith in Bob's ability to last even a single round, let alone 2. Some people say that he still serves a purpose by soaking up removal spells like a sponge, but my response to that is I play 12 sources of discard for that role (and it works just fine).

Bob is to Hippie as Night's Whisper is to Hymn (I'll probably get destroyed for typing that, but oh well).

[jrsthethird]

Here's a deck I've been running for the past couple months. Seems like Deadguy Ale to me! hahaha

22 Lands
4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
7 Swamp
3 Plains
4 Wasteland

16 Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Abyssal Persecutor
3 Tidehollow Sculler

4 Equipment
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

18 Spells
3 Bitterblossom
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
3 Duress

Sideboard
4 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Lightning Greaves
2 Innocent Blood
2 Perish

Not sure on the board, I see more Lands than I'm comfortable with and Greaves is good there, but I'm not sure if Perish is overkill or not.

So far from just reading the past few posts I don't see any Bitterblossom. It's stolen me many games by giving me chump blockers or just letting me swarm through the air. I originally designed this as a variant of 'The Gate' that splashes for STP and Stoneforge Mystic, and this is what happened over time.

I was thinking about Spectral Lynx today, he seems really good in a deck like this. I want to put a Basilisk Collar on him and stare down Goyfs all day. With decks like New Horizons consistently Top 8-ing where I play this seems like a good way to fight larger stupid guys. Also, I was thinking about using Retribution of the Meek instead of Perish in the board (possibly main). We don't really run any power-4-or-greater creatures (except when carrying a Sword), so it will usually take down an army of Goyfs, but also hits stuff like Inkwell and Emrakul, which are other problem cards, and even Tombstalker. I also haven't tested Aether Vial, but it might be a good call. I played in a small local event today and lost 2 matches to terrible land draws (3 Wastelands and 1 colored land, and both against mono-colored decks to boot!) Aether Vial would help me get around that. Also, Vialing in Sculler at the end of opponent's draw step seems really good (especially after something like a Mystical Tutor). Also I might try running Hymns instead of Duress (I really like Cabal Therapy, and has good synergy with Persecutor and against Dredge).

[EssKay]

I just want to chime in to say that I just won a small Vintage tournament with my Legacy version of Deadguy running the Hexmage/Depths combo. I think this version of the deck may merit some discussion, as it gives the deck some explosiveness without interfering with the disruption/control angle much. Here's my list (I believe I posted it several pages back, but don't want to make everyone go digging for it):


Lands
7 Swamp
4 Scrubland
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
3 Wasteland
4 Dark Depths

Creatures
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Tombstalker
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir

Spells
4 Dark Ritual
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Vindicate
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
2 Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Engineered Plague
4 Extirpate
3 Ethersworn Canonist


--Selected card choices--
Depths/Hexmage: Everyone already knows how this combo works. The combo is fairly fragile, but is not the core of the deck so if it gets disrupted or you never see it, not a big deal. It does help with some otherwise bad matchups by giving you a potential T3 win though. Depths is completely useless on it's own, but Hexmage can deal with all kinds of things like Planeswalkers, Gemstone Mine, Chalice, EE, etc.

Nighthawk: I hate to let my beloved Hippies go, but Nighthawk has really proven to be more versatile. It can stall while you look for the combo or a Tombstalker, gain life to offset Bob, or sometimes just beat for the win.

Bob + Tombstalker: Yes, this is often considered crazy. I have flipped 8 damage several times, but just as many times I've won off of one or both of these guys. This deck can fill the yard easily, so multiple Tombstalkers is rarely an issue. I would like a slightly better chance of not killing myself though, so I have some alternatives in mind.

SDT: I've been told to replace these with Jittes, but when they hit play they're just so useful. Digs for the combo and makes Bob your friend again.

Land count: It's pretty low, but is rarely an issue with the low curve + ritual. The main drawback is that you really can't keep an opening hand with less than two lands, the numbers just aren't in your favor.

Extirpate: I feel like I don't see this card used much anymore and I really don't understand why. There are enough removal/discard effects in here that you can easily break their whole game plan very early. Remember it can hit nonbasic lands, which can be totally devastating against some decks. I mainly board it in against control, but it's great against a lot of decks.


--Potential Alternatives--
The biggest changes I'm considering now are:
-2 Tombstalker
+2 Abyssal Persecutor
-2 Thoughtseize
+2 Cabal Therapy

I feel like this could make the deck a bit less Suicide-ish. I also see graveyard hate sided in against me in most matchups, so this could help with that.

--Bad Matchups--
Zoo is bad because of how quickly they can deal damage, combined with the amount of damage you can deal yourself. The depths combo helps a lot here, just try to wait until you have StP backup, as they usually have PtE. Going to 40 doesn't guarantee the win, but you have a better mid/late game.

Merfolk isn't great, Plagues help but getting them to stick before you get killed is tough

Combo is probably the worst matchup, they can usually go off before you can swing with Marit Lage. Canonist helps but doesn't really guarantee anything. Sometimes a turn one Ritual->Nighthawk can keep you out of Tendrils range though.

Reanimator is bad. Well, I guess it's bad b/c I haven't had a chance to test against it yet. I think the SB makes games 2 and 3 possible, but I still think this has to go in the bad category.

Stax is rough, especially when they go first. There just aren't that many permanents to try and race them with.

--Good/Even Matchups--
Control is fairly even, but if played correctly seems to be slightly favorable. I generally side out the entire Depths combo for Extirpates and Leylines if the opponent is Canadian Thresh. If you bide your time and lead with discard, they can rarely do anything about a couple Tombstalkers. Most only run a few creatures, so Extirpate can win games.

Aggro Loam is slightly favorable b/c of all the graveyard hate in the SB, same with Lands but slightly less so for some reason. It seems to draw into more answers even without the Loam engine running. I usually board out most of the discard here.

Goblins is interesting, game one is usually something like 70/30 in their favor, but an early Gatekeeper/swords and a lot of discard can sometimes slow them down enough. Much better after boarding in E. Plagues.

Dredge is usually auto-lose game 1, but auto-win games 2 and 3. Board in Extirpate and Leyline in place of all the discard, since they'll be boarding in bounce effects, Extirpate gives you a little extra protection. Note that you can sometimes pull off game one with Hexmage, they can usually recover though.


I play this deck like proactive control, leading with as much discard as possible before dropping critical things like Bob or the combo. If the combo is disrupted, there's usually a Tombstalker waiting to follow. It's a blast to play, and I hope this list can inspire some new ideas and maybe convert a few more Deadguy players.

[jrsthethird]

Might be worth keeping in Thoughtseize on the play against Dredge. If they keep a hand with only 1 enabler (Tribe, Imp, Breakthrough), you can really slow them down. Side them out if you're on the draw, because then they're useless.

Why no Urborg? Seems a necessity with 4 non-mana-producing lands. Also stops Wasteland from color-screwing you and I found out today from experience that Urborg + fetchlands saves you some key life points against Zoo.

Anyway, in response to my earlier post, here's a new list I'm going to try out, after a bad performance today. Mystic package doesn't seem to fit as well as I had hoped:

22 Lands
4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Wasteland
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

15 Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Nantuko Shade
4 Tidehollow Sculler

23 Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Darkblast
4 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Meekstone
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Card choices:

Bob, Nighthawk - best creatures for black at 2cc and 3cc, no question.
Nantuko Shade - seems like a good finisher, doesn't hurt with Bob (nothing in deck is greater than 3cc)
Tidehollow Sculler - always loved seeing him, in many matchups, almost as good as Thoughtseize, but on a stick! I was rarely upset to see him before.

Dark Ritual - acceleration
Swords, Vindicate - removal
Inquisition/Duress/Hymn - Trying out a 2/2 split since I don't have Thoughtseize.
Sensei's Divining Top - Vastly improve card quality after the first few turns, fetchlands help to send unwanted cards back.
Jitte - sick equipment

Sideboard:
Faerie Macabre - Reanimator, other GY decks
Darkblast - Goblins, Dredge, Zoo, anything else that runs x/1's.
Ethersworn Canonist - Storm, any matchup where you want more dudes
Meekstone - Zoo, Bant, Reanimator, whatever, most decks that win by attacking do it with 3+ power guys.
Tormod's Crypt - Dredge, other GY decks
Jitte - an extra against other decks that run it.

Sideboard is really iffy, I tried to emulate Pikula's list, and fill in where I felt his comes up short for today's meta (some sideboard stuff, Top, Nighthawk, etc.)

Will be testing this and I have a couple big tournaments in the next couple weeks so hopefully it goes well (and I can get the cards! I'll probably play Seizes if I can get them).

[EssKay]

I don't run Urborgs for a couple reasons. Mainly it's because I don't have any and I'm trying not to buy any cards at the moment. Second, it's Legendary so you either run 4 to have a good chance of getting it but risk dead draws on the multiples, or run 1-2 and risk never seeing it, in which case the deck has to be able to work properly without it anyway. I just see it as something that would be "nice" but not essential.

A friend of mine was running a version with Weathered Wayfarer so he could avoid running multiples of Depths. I like the idea but I'm wary of adding more white cards since the deck is so dependent on producing black. I generally only play/fetch a Scrubland if I have Swords/Vindicate in hand, or if I want to try and bait a Wasteland.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Nice List. I'm not running rit, mainly to avoid losing the 2-for-1 wars, But what's your opinion on Jotun Grunt vs Nighthawk in this deck? That's been a big decision for me, since I love both for different reasons.

[jrsthethird]

I did terrible at the Philly Open with this, abandoned it. =/

[markbris]

I did terrible at the Philly Open with this, abandoned it. =/

What list did you run, what'd you play?

[jrsthethird]

1 Urborg
4 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
1 Bloodstained Mire
8 Swamp

4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Nantuko Shade
3 Withered Wretch

3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Gerrard's Verdict
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard
3 Meekstone (seemed great against all the cheated fatties in the format)
4 Sadistic Sacrament
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Darkblast (I realized right after round 1 how bad this was, it should have been Engineered Plague, which I even picked up but didn't run)
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Consuming Vapors (thought it would be good against Zoo, was never relevant)

Round 1 - UWr(g?) Landstill - player was not very good, kept bad hands and made terrible misplays. I win 2-0
Round 2 - Lewis Laskin's UGBw Landstill that was featured on the SCG Deck Tech - Game 1 he stuck a Jace and rocked me with it, eventually getting Counterspell on Isochron as well as Life from the Loam + Forbid. Game 2, I had to mull to 5, kept a hand of Urborg, Bob, 3 Dark Rit, he Forced my turn 1 Bob and Wasted the Urborg. I ripped some disruption and lands off the top and managed to kill his hand, but he ripped a Jace that I couldn't answer since I couldn't draw threats.
Round 3 - Mono-U fish. I forget how this played out but I lost game 1. Game 2 I boarded in Meekstone, since he runs like 14 lords, but made the mistake of playing it turn 1, so he beat me down with Silvergills and Mutavaults and Vialed in a lord to pump and kill me. I should have waited for him to commit to lords and swing, then leave them all tapped.
Round 4 - Dredge. Game 1, I stick a turn 2 Wretch, but it's too slow and I make the mistake of letting him crack a Coliseum because I always forget how good it is. Game 2, I 1st turn Sadistic Sacrament, removing his Ichorids, and stick a turn 2 Wretch. I remove everything relevant, but Wretch is too slow to keep him from Dredging, he eventually gets a full set of Narcomoebas on board (hardcasting 1 of them), I can Vindicate 1 but no other removal, Nighthawk, or Jitte in sight and I lose to Narcomoeba beatdown.

After that, I was very frustrated with the deck, as well as the abysmal 2-4-1 I went the day before in Standard, so I dropped because I couldn't stand to play any more Magic and waited out the day for my friends to finish.

[EssKay]

I think any deck playing black needs to have 4 Leyline of the Void in the sideboard, it's relevant against too much of the format not to.

[Iare]

Well seeing as a bunch of recent decks posted here lack bob I think this is the place I want to be. It would appear that deadguy ale has completely and totally fallen off the map and I'm quite interested in discussing why that is. The deck has access to some sick card advantage and tempo boosts. I've had a bit of luck with the decklist below, but from piloting the deck and reading parts of this thread I would like to suggest that the biggest issue is threat density and quality. I find it hard to win the game swinging for 2 damage a turn with weenies which led me to trying to go more classic sui aggro/control route with this :

Lands - 20
4x Scrubland
6x Fetchlands
9x Swamp
1x Plains

Creatures - 13
4x Gatekeeper of malikar
4x Tombstalker
3x Nyxathid
2x Nantuko shade

Instant- 12
4x Dark Ritual
4x Smother
4x Swords

Scorcery- 15
4x Duress
1x Thoughtsieze
4x Hymn to tourach
3x Gerrard's Verdict
3x Reanimate

Sideboard - 15
4x Faerie Macabre
4x Vindicate
4x Mindbreak trap
3x Inquisition

Thoughts on my deck as its built now:
I love reanimate all day everyday except when its completely and totally useless. Sometimes its just dead weight but at least the picture is uplifting ;) I still feel theres not enough threats but I'm unsure as to what to cut and what I should add in. I don't believe adding in more weenies is what is required but more fat and more reliable fat at that.

[EssKay]

Reanimate seems to have bad synergy with Tombstalker. I win as many games off that guy as I do off Depths. How do you find Nyxathid? I thought about picking some up but wasn't sure what I would remove to put them in...what would you say his P/T usually is?

[Lord_Cyrus]

@ Iare

I love Deadguy, and I am saddened to say this - but I also think it is no longer competitive. I think the reason this deck has fallen off the map have to do with a few long-term issues it is having, as well as the recent metagame.

As to the long-term issues; it seems to me like this deck cannot figure out what it wants to be. Does it want to be beatdown, LD, Aggro-Control? Builds vary so wildly that it is hard to have a coherent list to talk about anymore. The poor synergy between TS and Bob has been an issue for a few years now, and yet nobody has come to a really satisfying solution.

Also, discard is not as good as it used to be. This might seem like a pointless generalization, but it has really bad results for this deck. What is the point of discard against reanimator? Against Counter-top decks and New Horizon decks playing tons of topdeck fixing cantrips and Sensei tops? None of these decks need to worry about our creature base; if they get out just a few of their best men, they can easily beat us. They see more cards and better cards per game, on average. Also, they play nearly as much disruption as we do.

Sadly, it seems like we as Deadguy Ale pilots are quickly running out of reasons not to play Green, or just to play a stronger deck if we want to compete. I would love for somebody to show up at a tournament and prove me dead wrong, but I don't see it happening anytime soon. If anything, this deck needs strong new printings in B and W that bring the archetype back to life. Barring that, I think we can put the tombstone over Deadguy as a truly competitive deck.

[jrsthethird]

The following list placed 8th at SCG Seattle. It's really close to what I was running before, but decided to change for some reason after a bad performance. The main difference is that he ran Dark Ritual, which I didn't while testing a Stoneforge Mystic build:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=33312

[Diavolo]

A few things I don't like about that deck:

1. More Mystics than Equipment
2. The lone Inquisition
3. DARK RITUAL

I feel like Dark Ritual is terrible when all you accelerate into are creatures that get Bolted (Sworded), Equipment that goes on creatures that get Bolted in response, etc. Dark Ritual is better in versions that play Tombstalker.

I sort of like Grim Discovery as a slightly better Night's Whisper though.

[jrsthethird]

Yeah, my build ran 3 Mystic, 4 Equip (2 Jitte, 1 each of the Swords), and no Dark Ritual, but Grim Discovery does seem really good. Also his sideboard might have been better.

[markbris]

Yea I think he had 1 too many mystic.
I don't think you need SOLS either.
The lone inquisition is weird.
I thought grim discovery seemed bad at first but getting back wastelands and maybe a creature seems good. I'll try it out.
His sideboard does seem not very good, I dunno why on earth he would have 4x cop red in there, the rest I can see the inclusion.

I have a similar version of the deck and will probably take out dark ritual, without sinkhole and hippies I just feel like its not near as strong in the deck, and since I dont really like sinkhole or hippy in the deck, it should probably get cut. I need to do testing though.

[markbris]

dbl post apparently

[jrsthethird]

SOLS proved to be very useful for me. The lifegain helps with Bob, as well as getting back dudes.

[Iare]

I find nyxathid to be too good not to include the only time I've had him out as less than a 4/4 is when my opponent has an active loam. I generally board him out against aggro loam and hope to either kill them with tombstalker or reanimate one of their many juicy targets. Another note on nyxathid is I run gerrards verdict to help support him though I'm starting to wonder if I should put inquisitions in their place to lower my curve and help against blue decks/combo.

Questions to those trying to use mystic, don't you find it a tad bit slow and vulnerable? Seems by the time you get your equipment active a tombstalker would be a much better option.

[Mystical_Jackass]

I've only used Ale twice, and I really think the deck has a lot of potential. Here's the list I'm currently gonna tempt:

Land (21)
2 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Scrubland
2 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Windswept Heath
5 Swamp
1 Plains

Disruption (12)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Gerard's Verdict

Distruction/Removal (14)
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshare
1 Pernicious Deed

Creatures (14)
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Jotun Grunt

Draw (2)
2 Sensei's DT
~~~~~~~~~

I really want to try Grunt. He's 2cc for a 4/4 beat stick, something this deck deffinitely needs while being able to keep Confidant which is a huge plus. His drawback actually seems like it would work to our benefit considering how many top decks rely on their yard from Stalkers, Goyfs, dredge, loam decks, etc. So basically, keep their hands empty & gy empty.. then it's simply making sure we can control the board, and with the removal and land denial in the deck on top card draw of confidant I think it's a pretty danm good start.

I also want to mention, the second time I played.. running Sensei's... huge improvement. I honestly don't think I could go without running at least 2-3, it's a life saver as the game goes on and you're fighting top decks.

[jrsthethird]

No Goyf in that G-splash list. =(

[Iare]

The deck is 63 cards, This makes baby Jesus cry :(

[jrsthethird]

Ugh......any more than 61 cards and it's not a real deck. (Unless it's a Battle of Wits deck)

[Lord_Cyrus]

This deck looked OK to a first glance but then... what? Are you really trying to make Deadguy worse than it already is? Please tell me you made a mistake in posting and that isn't your actual list... As mentioned above, no goyf, not 60 cards, and other glaring problems make this a hideous pile.

[Mystical_Jackass]

There's 62 cards actually. My mistake, I think I miscounted that wasn't intentional :wink:

-2 Gerard's Verdict. there

There's no mistake. This is what I was planning on running. deckcheck, there's been lists in the pasts running "No Goyf" using Jotun Grunt that have been successful. I was gonna maindeck 1x Deed, but my plan was to have 3 extra for SB against some matchups, that was my idea splashing green, but I can always remove... I noticed one player who T8 ran a single Deed in his list, thought that was a descent idea.

I'd appreciate some constructive criticism. I already explained my deck plan, to disrupt opponent as much as possible and overtake them with CA while shutting down their gy as well.

[jrsthethird]

Grunt seems ok, I just feel like if you're going to extend your mana to include Bayous, Goyf is better. Grunt is too easy to play around for Reanimator/Survival (plus against Survival, the cards you give them will be very much live), and it's too slow to matter against Dredge. Only good thing is that it will give Lands players a headache and consistently control Goyf/Terravore size, but if you run Goyf this hurts you, and Goyfs will eat up Grunts unless you've had a couple turns to set it up.

I would suggest cutting the Scullers for Goyfs, maybe 4 Goyf/2 Grunt. If you like the Grunt you can put 2 more in the board, it will definitely help Bant matchups and be a thorn in the side for GY decks, but it shouldn't replace regular GY hate since it's so slow and not instant-speed.

[Lord_Cyrus]

Ok, constructive criticism, where to start...

Don't splash G if you aren't willing to play Goyf. Just because a list has succeeded "in the past" doesn't mean it will today, or even that it is superior in any way. A singleton Deed is also likely to be ineffective.

Inquisition is just poor here. There is no real reason not to run Thoughtseizes. Always take their best card.

Grunts are solid, 2-3 is correct. But I think you may be overestimating their power. Try running this deck against the Tier 1's and I think you'll see what I mean. The ability is very strong, but it can be slow, and it can also be played around. As your best man in the deck, he also wears a big fat target, and without countermagic he is hard to protect. Expected to see him Plowed. Often.

Without Vampire Nighthawks you probably don't have a legit chance against Zoo or Tribal. Vindy is a terrible answer to Aether Vial.

I probably have more thoughts, but that's it for now.

[jrsthethird]

I forgot he wasn't running Nighthawks. Your creature suite should be something like:

4 Goyf
4 Bob
2-4 Nighthawk
2-4 Gatekeeper

[Mystical_Jackass]

Thanks for the feedback.

I have a playset of Nighthawks, could deffinitely throw him in. Don't own any Goyfs atm <insert frown> but I'll do my best to see if I can borrow a set. If I'm not able at least for the next week, I'll unsplash green

I'll maybe cut back a couple Scullers... I think I only ran 2x last time anyways, but I liked him, he did good taking out their removal and providing a stick :smile: I'll play test a little, like you mentioned I might just end up taking 'em all out :wink:


Inquisition is just poor here. There is no real reason not to run Thoughtseizes. Always take their best card.
I was considering trying it out, I used thoughtseize last time... the life loss sorta started to become a lot, against some decks that splashed red too, I figured I'm packing so much card removal I could spare some life, but I'll test and if it just sucks I'll go back to seize.


As your best man in the deck, he also wears a big fat target, and without countermagic he is hard to protect. Expected to see him Plowed. Often.
mm... well, I shouldn't think to see that much like you said. He'd just about always come out after the initial disruption, and if I can't take out their removal effectively with sculler, seize/inquisition, hymns, it seems that that would be more a failure on my part, ya know.


Without Vampire Nighthawks you probably don't have a legit chance against Zoo or Tribal. Vindy is a terrible answer to Aether Vial.

I deffinitely agree with this... I think maybe upping to 2x Jitte with Nighthawk would be pretty helpful, what you think?

[Lord_Cyrus]

Now this thread has actually got me thinking... If I were to play Deadguy these days, it might look something like this:

Men (18)
4 Goyf
4 Bob
4 Nighthawk
4 Gatekeeper
2 Stoneforge Mystic

Gear (2)
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Disruption (19)
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn
4 Sinkhole
4 Sword
3 Vindicate

Mana (21)
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
4 Scrubland
2 Swamp
3 Wasteland

SB (15)
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Extirpate
3 Krosan Grip
3 Engineered Plague
3 Choke//Ghostly Prison

I'm not totally sold on the SB yet, it needs testing of course. In theory it seems solid at shoring up the deck's bad matchups, Counterbalance/Bant in particular. If you expect more ANT, you'd probably want to fit in 2-3 Duress, if you expect more Tribal, you obv. want the 4th Plague, and Choke could come out for Ghostly Prison. Anyhow, it's more like a suggestion than a solid list.

The maindeck is strong, flexible, and decent against Aggro. You disrupt them, you get down a man, and then you get Jitte on that man ASAP. You should be beating them both in the ground and in the air, while gaining a good amount of life. Bob is an asset in this deck - not a requirement. Board him out in matches where he's no good.

[Mystical_Jackass]

I like it, it actually looks very close to the one I updated... but I see Stoneforge Mystics, that's an awesome idea! Can't believe I never thought of that, I just might go ahead and copy that now heh. :wink:

I'm glad you threw in Stronghold, too, I found it to be really helpful late-game. Let me know how it works having 4-colorless sources, I went 2x wastes so I wouldn't get mana screwed so let me know how that works for you.

Sure you wouldn't maybe cut back like -1 Hawk, -1 Gatekeeper for like +2 Verdict? I guess they could always be SB, I just love the multiple 2-for-1's to shut people down, Verdicts deffinitely nowhere near Hymn but I'd generally follow up with a verdict once they're down to 2-3 cards in hand making it more painful. In rare situations late game, you can target yourself with it discarding 2 lands to stay alive... meh, all around a descent backup hymn.

Funny enough, my SB was very similar lol. I also ran 2x Extirpate, 3x Kgrip, 3x Plague, Voids... crazy, only difference is I threw in Sadistic Sacraments against some of those oddball matchups... maybe like Lands, Enchantress, or some Combo. Never needed to use them yet, not gonna lie, so couldn't really tell you how effective lol.

[Lord_Cyrus]

I'm glad you liked the list. I should have said, Deadguy was my first real Legacy deck, so I've been playing around with it for a while now...

I think 4 colorless is OK in a 3 color deck. Any more than that, and you might start losing to your own manabase. It is possible that this deck needs 22 lands in a meta with a lot of wastelands, and that would probably be, -1 Nighthawk, +1 plains. Gatekeeper I see as too important against Reanimator and Bant decks in particular. Edict effects are really helpful right now.

As to Verdict, I have played it over the years, of course. But I have to say I don't think it makes the cut anymore. Not in a world where Thoughtseize is the best discard spell. Letting them choose the discards is too risky for a deck like this, that only wants to disrupt key cards from their hand and then beat them down really hard. This is basically a beatdown deck, never forget that if you play my list. Play only enough of the discard to stop yourself from losing to their opening hand, and then play your best creatures every turn till you get Jitte online. If you draw into a hymn and get a good chance to cripple them again late game, that's great. But only if your men are in place and you at least have board parity.

Honestly I've given serious thought to cutting Hymn altogether, as Inquisition is a decent backup to Thoughtseize (but NOT a replacement for it). This deck really, really wants to disrupt on the first turn with a 1 mana discard to take out the most threatening card they have, unless you have a jucy wasteland target to cut off their mana. Overall Hymn may simply be too good to cut as a 2-for-1 in a deck that badly needs good card advantage.

IMO this is the real reason for running Stoneforge Mystic. Not only is it Jitte 3-4, but it is great CA! You get a body and your deck's best finisher for 2 mana. 2-for-1's make this deck come alive in the mid to late game, but you need to be careful how many you run. This deck is already seriously clogged at the 2 drop and is in danger of becoming too slow. That's why I don't think Verdict is efficient enough to play - because Hymn is already borderline in my book, and that card is just so much worse than Hymn.

If you decide to test a similar list, let me know how it turns out.

Edit: I had one other kinda crazy idea, but it makes the deck a bit more WG-centered: Knight of the Reliquary over Nighthawk as your big 3 drop. That takes this deck in more of an aggro-rock direction, but in theory the ability to tutor lands should be at least as strong here as it is in the Bant decks, and probably more powerful than in Zoo. Finding Volrath's Stronghold is a pretty back-breaking play. You get other spicy choices like Bojuka bog and Karakas as well, to make Reanimator's life totally miserable. Just a thought I had.

[Iare]

Mystical jackass - If you are going to run with sinkholes for land destruction I think its in your best interest to go all out tempo orientated. I would begin testing something like this


Lands -21
The usual + 4 wastelands

Creatures- 13
4x Bob
4x Gatekeeper of malikar
3x Jotun Grunt
2x Nyxathid

Instant- 4
4x Swords

Sorcery-21
4x Thoughtsieze
4x Inquisition
4x Hymn to tourach
4x Sinkhole
4x Vindicate
2x Grim discovery

I havn't done any testing with something like this but if I did I would be thinking about :
1. Do I need smother?
2. Can I make use of reanimate (I put grim discovery in to add to the land destruction package but reanimate is a tempo stealer)
3. Is land destruction working out? lol

Really all I'm 100% sure on is it doesn't make any sense to run sinkhole without the full 4 wastelands

[Mystical_Jackass]

Great Feedback again. I'ma shoot for something like Lord_Cyrus' and see how that runs, I suppose. If I can't get ahold of goyfs.. might have to modify a bit, ironically I own exactly 2x Nyxathid lol, that would make a desc backup plan.

I hear what you're saying about the wastelands Iare. I guess I'm still a little skeptical running a full playset... I lost two games the last time in game 3 where I literally lost to myself lol (mana screwed 'cause I couldn't get the colors till too late, and I had a god hand one of the times, just a sucky way to lose).

Correct me, I may be wrong, but would the better play usually be something like...

Turn1: Swamp, Thoughtseize/Top
Turn2: Fetch/Scrubland, Sinkhole
Turn3: Confidant/Hymn, Wasteland

I may be incorrect, but running 4x Wastes, increasing the chance having to lead with it, be the not as good play?

[Lord_Cyrus]

Iare, you have some good points. I've been unhappy with the power level of the 2CC spells in this deck for a while - Hymn and Sinkhole are both very old cards that simply lose in pure efficiency to newer cards/strategies. Sinkhole is a fairly unique effect in Magic as a 2CC stone rain, but in a format of fetchlands, brainstorm, ponder, Sensei Top, etc., it is reasonable to ask how well any "stone rain" holds up to its 4-of slot in the maindeck. It's simply not as easy to manascrew people as it once was, and even Stifle, which when you think about it says "U, instant, spoil target fetchland" is talked about as being 'too weak' in a lot of modern decks.

Really, what I am concerned with is making this deck hit much harder and faster than it has in the past. It's too hard to compete with Zoo and Bant strategies when all their creatures rock yours, and when you can't disrupt them fast enough to prevent them establishing a strong board and a strong hand. Once they do that, their decks will just out-power ours, because they litterally beat us down so freaking hard. Goyf is a big part of this - it's hard to justify not playing him.

If you are then playing 3 colors, playing 4 wastelands can be a serious liability. If that then makes Sinkhole too poor to play, then it makes more logical sense to cut Sinkhole and go to something like this for the disruption suite:

4x Thoughtseize
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4 x Hymn

That's 12 strong discard spells, and 8 ways to hit them on turn 1, which is the most important thing you can do. Then the 3x wastelands become less of a real LD strategy, and more of a way to fight problem lands that would otherwise kill us. If you see the chance to color-screw them, obv. you should go for it, but that's not the primary objective anymore. The primary objective is to disrupt early, then play threats out until the opponent is overwhelmed. Additional disruption should only be played as necessary to support the beatdown strategy.

@Mystical: If you are going to use something like my list, here is the real gameplan against most decks except for combo:
Turn1: land, thoughtseize/inquisition
Turn2: land, goyf (or best 2 drop creature you have)
Turn3: land/wasteland, Best 2 or 3 drop you have in hand
Turn4: either smash their board or hand, with a hymn/vindy/sword, some combo thereof, and swing in with the team
turn4+: Same as turns 3 and 4: either add to your team, or support your team so they won't get outclassed. Keep up the beatdowns.

Obviously against combo (inc. reanimator) this changes: Instead you want to keep disrupting them until you feel confident they can't win, and then establish your beatdown clock.

[Mystical_Jackass]

My thoughts on Us vs Zoo:


The primary objective is to disrupt early, then play threats out until the opponent is overwhelmed. Additional disruption should only be played as necessary to support the beatdown strategy.

Is it possible for a deck like ours to overwhelm Zoo off the bat? That was my only thought.

I'm almost thinking Sinkhole would be very helpful in this matchup, I know you said mana denial more of a backup. But if you smash Zoo's mana base, the overpowered Nactl's and Kird Apes become lowly 1/1's early on. Zoo's game is always gonna be playing the biggest creatures, but our deck can win off pure CA. Our constant 2-for-1's and superior draw (Confidant, SDT?) should pull through as soon as we equilibrate after taking a few early hits...

- Gatekeeper
- Stoneforge Mystic
- Dark Confidant
- Hymn

...They're losing CA in the long run, they have amazing top deck but having more answers than they can top deck will make them lose in the long run. I run the card Drop of Honey in a G/W build, totally messes up decks like this early tempo buying you more time to affect them.



Really, what I am concerned with is making this deck hit much harder and faster than it has in the past. It's too hard to compete with Zoo and Bant strategies when all their creatures rock yours, and when you can't disrupt them fast enough to prevent them establishing a strong board and a strong hand. Once they do that, their decks will just out-power ours, because they litterally beat us down so freaking hard. Goyf is a big part of this - it's hard to justify not playing him.

I agree a lot, this was my experience against some decks too, even played a Rock deck running Kitchen Finks and Troll Ascetic's, just too difficult for me to compete unless I can Sword.. Vindicdate was utterly useless, I lacked that "Big" creature like Goyf to turn the tide of the game. Despite what I said, I think you pretty much hit the nail on the hammer, the deck needs to hit much harder....... btw, don't run Exalted Angel, I ran 2x last time, although I won with it one game it 'caused me to murder myself off confidant another game lol.

[Uly Van Hammer]

Hey! I'm new to these forums and I would like to post my build. Ive had alot of Top 8's playing this archtype at local Power9 tournaments. Since the printing of stoneforge mystic, and the pressense of so many decks that utilize/manipulate the graveyard, I have taken out Hymn from the maindeck. It may go back into the sideboard for my next tournament depending on how much merfolk or zoo I see.



Here is my current list:




6 Swamp

1 Plains

1 Karakas

4 Wasteland

4 Marsh Flats

4 Scrubland



3 Vampire Nighthawk

4 Dark Confidant

4 Gatekeeper of Malikir

3 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Tidehallow Sculler



4 Path to Exile

4 Vindicate

4 Dark Ritual

4 Thoughtseize

1 Inquisition of Kozilek



1 Umezawa's Jitte

1 Sword of Fire and Ice

1 Sword of Light and Shadow

2 Pithing Needle



Sideboard:

4 Leyline of the Void

4 Faerie Macabre

3 Engineered Plague

3 Perish

1 Pithing Needle



Sculler is great against control.. The downside to him is decks with heavy removal pretty much just turn him into castigate. If they have 2 removal spells in hand it is best to take whatever one is weakest. Hopefully they will use their better spell to kill him, getting their weaker spell back. Also, if you are really in a crunch, you can use instant speed removal in response to his "enter's the battlefield" trigger to remove something from their hand forever (Not very practical, but hey it works...).



Vampire Nighthawk is a powerhouse. He is better than Hippy these days. He can take out any creature (short of progentus, but that's why you have Gatekeeper), and when he connects it's a 4 point life swing.



When you play Vindicate, most of the time you will be destroying lands and tarmogoyfs. This card should be side boarded out against reanimator. Iona makes it a dead card.



Stoneforge Mystic is a champ. I hate drawing equipment without a body to put it on, this solves that problem. Also, when playing against blue, unless you are 100% possitive they have no countermagic, dont cast equipment, it's worth not attacking to vial in a sword or jitte.



Some people have told me they built my deck but opted dark ritual in favor of Hymn to Tourach. For me Hymn is to risky these days. there are alot of popular decks that manipulate the graveyards, and dont mind having their loam, iona, or bridge from belows sent to their yards. I love ritual for the turn 1 plays. Thoughtseize + Dark Confidant is the decks strongest turn 1 play. I dont think I could give it up.



Against Pro-Bant (Best matchup) you should control the board as much as possible while keeping a gatekeeper in hand, only for Progenitus. Wasteland the Dryad arbors, and path anything that moves until they have one creature and you can safely kill the big badass.



I could go on and on. this is my favorite deck these days. It's worst matchup is probably zoo and goyf sligh. Im tinkering around to flip it in the decks favor (Probably putting hymn in the board), so I'll let you know when I do.

[Lord_Cyrus]

@Uly Van Hammer: Welcome to the Source! That's not a bad 2 color build, but as you say, it is poor against Zoo. I'm wondering if we can really afford that liability anymore? PRO Bant is still a top deck, but it seems like it is less common at the top tables these days, where as Zoo is everywhere in the Top 16. Also, IMO Sculler isn't strong enough, only being good against decks that we should already be beating. And Jitte + Sword of Light and Shadow are probably the only 2 equips good enough to run, currently. This deck already has a draw engine: his name is Bob! (just saying) Also pro-white is probably more important on the whole.

@Mystical: Can we overwhelm zoo? Not if we keep thinking back in the stone ages, when B/W alone was good enough, and Nantuko shade and Hyppie were great creatures. The real answer? Play better men. The disruption package needs to be paired with the best possible creatures. Read on...

Ok so, I did some more theorycrafting (and some testing) about Knight of the Reliquary. And I've come to the conclusion that if you play 3 colors, he is probably just too damn strong not to play. Want to win the Zoo matchup? Blanking their Bolts as efficient removal goes a long way towards beating them in combat.

But in all seriousness, if you get to untap with a Knight in play at a decent lifetotal, you usually just win the game. I love Nighthawk, but can you really say that about him? The combination of massive beater/wall and card selection advantage through the use of the Knight's land searching is so strong that he can win games all by himself.

If we include Knight, then the deck starts to look and play quite differently; IMO for the better. When you start playing with creatures this powerful, cards like Sinkhole seem to just clog the hand and slow you down. They also make the mana more tricky, where you want BB on turn 2, and then GW on turn 3. That's unnecessarily hard in a format where Sinkhole needs a lot of good synergy to be effective.

I'm not sure this is really Deadguy anymore - but for the matchups I want to win, it is a step in the right direction. So I present to you...

Dark Knight (BWG Beatdown!)

4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Dark Confidant
4x Gatekeeper of Malakir
2x Stoneforge Mystic

2x Umezawa's Jitte

4x Thoughtseize
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Hymn to Tourach
2x Vindicate
4x Swords to Plowshares

1x Karakas
1x Volrath's Stronghold
3x Wasteland
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Marsh Flats
2x Windswept Heath
3x Bayou
2x Scrubland
1x Savannah
2x Swamp
1x Plains

SB:

4x Leyline of the Void
2x Bojuka Bog
3x Engineered Plague
3x Krosan Grip
3x Choke (or Ghostly Prison, as before)

You could also ideally play a Tabernacle in the side if you are expecting a ton of Tribal. But let's face it, not everyone can afford to buy that card.

Edit: Mana base might need work also. Some concern about kicking your Gatekeeper reliably, but testing should show if more black mana is needed.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Nice. I love the SB bogs, instant speed GY removal anyone!? :cool:

I'd considered splashing white for Pridemage at one point, so :1::g::w: seems like it could work... especially, considering once he gets out you got all the mana correction you need with him. Without getting too cute, I was almost thinking maybe run 1x Lightning Greaves, some synergy between Mystic and Reliquary to protect him and get to fetching/swinging quicker? What you think?

Dark Knight looks like a great new version, maybe like 3 steps ahead of where I'm at now lol.. I'ma go for the more traditional to test out next tourney then maybe I'll come back and take a look at the G/W splash a little more, aye.

[EssKay]

@Uly Van Hammer: Welcome to the Source! That's not a bad 2 color build, but as you say, it is poor against Zoo. I'm wondering if we can really afford that liability anymore? PRO Bant is still a top deck, but it seems like it is less common at the top tables these days, where as Zoo is everywhere in the Top 16. Also, IMO Sculler isn't strong enough, only being good against decks that we should already be beating. And Jitte + Sword of Light and Shadow are probably the only 2 equips good enough to run, currently. This deck already has a draw engine: his name is Bob! (just saying) Also pro-white is probably more important on the whole.

@Mystical: Can we overwhelm zoo? Not if we keep thinking back in the stone ages, when B/W alone was good enough, and Nantuko shade and Hyppie were great creatures. The real answer? Play better men. The disruption package needs to be paired with the best possible creatures. Read on...

Ok so, I did some more theorycrafting (and some testing) about Knight of the Reliquary. And I've come to the conclusion that if you play 3 colors, he is probably just too damn strong not to play. Want to win the Zoo matchup? Blanking their Bolts as efficient removal goes a long way towards beating them in combat.

But in all seriousness, if you get to untap with a Knight in play at a decent lifetotal, you usually just win the game. I love Nighthawk, but can you really say that about him? The combination of massive beater/wall and card selection advantage through the use of the Knight's land searching is so strong that he can win games all by himself.

If we include Knight, then the deck starts to look and play quite differently; IMO for the better. When you start playing with creatures this powerful, cards like Sinkhole seem to just clog the hand and slow you down. They also make the mana more tricky, where you want BB on turn 2, and then GW on turn 3. That's unnecessarily hard in a format where Sinkhole needs a lot of good synergy to be effective.

I'm not sure this is really Deadguy anymore - but for the matchups I want to win, it is a step in the right direction. So I present to you...

Dark Knight (BWG Beatdown!)

4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Dark Confidant
4x Gatekeeper of Malakir
2x Stoneforge Mystic

2x Umezawa's Jitte

4x Thoughtseize
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Hymn to Tourach
2x Vindicate
4x Swords to Plowshares

1x Karakas
1x Volrath's Stronghold
3x Wasteland
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Marsh Flats
2x Windswept Heath
3x Bayou
2x Scrubland
1x Savannah
2x Swamp
1x Plains

SB:

4x Leyline of the Void
2x Bojuka Bog
3x Engineered Plague
3x Krosan Grip
3x Choke (or Ghostly Prison, as before)

You could also ideally play a Tabernacle in the side if you are expecting a ton of Tribal. But let's face it, not everyone can afford to buy that card.

Edit: Mana base might need work also. Some concern about kicking your Gatekeeper reliably, but testing should show if more black mana is needed.

Congratulations, you've managed to build The Rock, with an even less reliable manabase. If you really want to run that deck, I'd swap out Gatekeepers for Edicts in a heartbeat, and probably still kick that Savannah and those Heaths to the curb. You're also running 12 discard spells, which are going to turn into dead draws against Zoo pretty fast. Finally, you've opened yourself up to graveyard hate, which basically every deck in the format runs now. All that, and I don't see how you've improved the Zoo matchup at all. Most Zoo lists also have KotR and Goyf, plus a bunch of other creatures that are more efficient than yours, plus enough burn to win the creature war every time.

IMO, Deadguy should be about consistency and control. If you want to try to disrupt early then blitzkreig with a few big bombs, play Eva Green or Suicide Black. If you just want to beat Zoo, play AnT. If you want to play a mishmash of "good" cards, play The Rock. I don't agree that B/W is dead, and it certainly doesn't just roll over to Zoo. The Zoo matchup isn't great, but not really the toughest matchup, which is definitely combo, AnT moreso than Reanimator. I don't think my Bw list is perfect, but it's very consistent and has been doing well in tournaments so far.

[Lord_Cyrus]

Well if you notice I said the manabase needed work. I'm not claiming anything for this deck yet. And yes it could be described as a form of Aggro-Rock. I have played Eva Green in the past, as well as many different forms of The Rock, but I can't get past the fact that all these decks are still losing hard to the top tier strategies. I'm trying something different here, the major new element being KoTR.

If your B/W list is performing so great, I'd like to see it. It's also one thing to claim good tournament results, but quite another to back them up with hard data.

Honestly as much as I love both Deadguy and Rock style strategies (Deadguy Ale was my first Legacy deck), I wouldn't consider bringing either of those to a major tournament at the moment. Until I'm convinced that the strategy is once again viable, I'll stick to playing the decks I've been performing well with: Bant and Merfolk.

[SMR0079]

Ulysses,

Cut those god aweful Scullers already! Path over StP when you run Waste and Vindicate - nonbo ;)

Try CoP REd and Perish in your board - it really helps against Zoo. Is everyone afraid of flipping Tombstalker to Bob? What about Elspeth? Anyone tried BitterBlossom in place of Bob?


Hey! I'm new to these forums and I would like to post my build. Ive had alot of Top 8's playing this archtype at local Power9 tournaments. Since the printing of stoneforge mystic, and the pressense of so many decks that utilize/manipulate the graveyard, I have taken out Hymn from the maindeck. It may go back into the sideboard for my next tournament depending on how much merfolk or zoo I see.



Here is my current list:







Sculler is great against control.. The downside to him is decks with heavy removal pretty much just turn him into castigate. If they have 2 removal spells in hand it is best to take whatever one is weakest. Hopefully they will use their better spell to kill him, getting their weaker spell back. Also, if you are really in a crunch, you can use instant speed removal in response to his "enter's the battlefield" trigger to remove something from their hand forever (Not very practical, but hey it works...).



Vampire Nighthawk is a powerhouse. He is better than Hippy these days. He can take out any creature (short of progentus, but that's why you have Gatekeeper), and when he connects it's a 4 point life swing.



When you play Vindicate, most of the time you will be destroying lands and tarmogoyfs. This card should be side boarded out against reanimator. Iona makes it a dead card.



Stoneforge Mystic is a champ. I hate drawing equipment without a body to put it on, this solves that problem. Also, when playing against blue, unless you are 100% possitive they have no countermagic, dont cast equipment, it's worth not attacking to vial in a sword or jitte.



Some people have told me they built my deck but opted dark ritual in favor of Hymn to Tourach. For me Hymn is to risky these days. there are alot of popular decks that manipulate the graveyards, and dont mind having their loam, iona, or bridge from belows sent to their yards. I love ritual for the turn 1 plays. Thoughtseize + Dark Confidant is the decks strongest turn 1 play. I dont think I could give it up.



Against Pro-Bant (Best matchup) you should control the board as much as possible while keeping a gatekeeper in hand, only for Progenitus. Wasteland the Dryad arbors, and path anything that moves until they have one creature and you can safely kill the big badass.



I could go on and on. this is my favorite deck these days. It's worst matchup is probably zoo and goyf sligh. Im tinkering around to flip it in the decks favor (Probably putting hymn in the board), so I'll let you know when I do.

[Iare]

I'm still working on this since I'm sick of playing burn/sligh/all out aggro I punt combo while I'm shuffling so without further ado I would like comments on this pile :

Lands - 20
4x Scrubland
9x Fetchlands
3x Badlands
3x Swamp
1x Plains

Creatures - 16
4x Gatekeeper of malikar
4x Dark Confidant
4x Jotun Grunt
4x Steppe Lynx

Instant- 8
4x Lightning bolt
4x Path to exile

Scorcery- 16
4x Duress
4x Hymn to tourach
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Reanimate
2x Rift Bolt


Sideboard - 15
4x Faerie Macabre
4x Vindicate
4x Mindbreak trap
3x I'm not sure yet

[Mystical_Jackass]

With that build, I'd almost suggest run Weathered Wayfarer with the Lynx. You can crack a fetch then activate his ability to get more fetches to abuse, also makes it easy to splash Karakas or Wastes, Maze in SB?

Maybe...
+4 Wayfarer
-1 reanimate
-2 rift
-1 grunt

Maybe even try to fit in like 2x Jitte, cut a couple Duress. That's all I got.

[EssKay]

Well if you notice I said the manabase needed work. I'm not claiming anything for this deck yet. And yes it could be described as a form of Aggro-Rock. I have played Eva Green in the past, as well as many different forms of The Rock, but I can't get past the fact that all these decks are still losing hard to the top tier strategies. I'm trying something different here, the major new element being KoTR.

KotR has been in The Rock forever, it was Rock lists here that prompted me to buy them back when they were $1 each


If your B/W list is performing so great, I'd like to see it. It's also one thing to claim good tournament results, but quite another to back them up with hard data..

Honestly I totally agree with this. I haven't posted any results with the deck in a long time because I moved and there just aren't any regular Legacy events here, although as I said before I did win a local vintage event with it, against Oath, some Painterstone/Tinker deck, and UWG Fish. Before I moved, once I finalized on the list I posted before, I was coming in 2-6 pretty regularly. Not super results, but I'll be the first to admit that I'm bad for making stupid play errors, and it took me a while to really figure out how the deck needs to be played.

That said, I've been really happy with how the deck has shaped up, and now that I have a better feel for it, I'll be taking it to the 5K in Denver, and I'll see how it does. I'll be watching tournament reports closely to see if it's worth pulling the Canonists from the SB in favor of Damnation or possibly just Smother. If I ever get around to installing a Windows in a VM and then MWS, I'd be happy to put it together and do some testing.

[Mystical_Jackass]

KotR has been in The Rock forever, it was Rock lists here that prompted me to buy them back when they were $1 each

I think he meant new to Deadguy Ale.. not that they were new to The Rock. :wink:

[Uly Van Hammer]

Here's an article about the SCG 5k Seattle (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/19563_Ideas_Unbound_Blocking_Warriors_in_Seattle_A_StarCityGamescom_Open_Report.html)

I played max round 2 with deadguy. It was an ok day. I went 3-0 from the get-go, only to be ate by ANT. I played Jeff Cunningham's Reanimator the next round. I should have won, however the "heart" of the cards wasnt with me.

[Lord_Cyrus]

I think he meant new to Deadguy Ale.. not that they were new to The Rock. :wink:

That's correct... I haven't been keeping up with The Rock for a few years now, so I had no clue they were using KoTR. In this respect my "tech" does seem kinda old. I still think it could work, but I'm not sure how. I'll keep working on this one, but honestly my main energy now is going to be towards figuring out the new meta with the decks that I am actually playing at tournaments.

Banning Mystical Tutor may have finally made this deck viable again. ANT was a pretty terrible matchup for us, so maybe things will get easier for Deadguy to live at the top tables now. I may disagree with what the DCI did, but if it can revive a deck I loved, maybe that's not so terrible. We'll see what happens.

[EssKay]

@Cyrus: You should really check out the Rock thread and post your list there too then. They may have better advice for Bgw lists.

@Iare: Why splash red for 6 spells here? Bolt is always nice but Flame Rift? Also I just don't see the point of reanimate, especially if you plan on keeping Jotun Grunt in play for a while. You'd be better off running Vindicate maindeck and Leyline over Macabre

I don't know why everyone seems to be giving up on Tombstalker...just because of Bob? Honestly I'd take the 8 life to have a 4-turn clock with evasion that shrinks goyfs and doesn't afraid of Counterbalance. Alternatively, most Deadguy lists have lots of spot removal, how about Abyssal Persecutor?

[Uly Van Hammer]

@Cyrus: You should really check out the Rock thread and post your list there too then. They may have better advice for Bgw lists.

@Iare: Why splash red for 6 spells here? Bolt is always nice but Flame Rift? Also I just don't see the point of reanimate, especially if you plan on keeping Jotun Grunt in play for a while. You'd be better off running Vindicate maindeck and Leyline over Macabre

I don't know why everyone seems to be giving up on Tombstalker...just because of Bob? Honestly I'd take the 8 life to have a 4-turn clock with evasion that shrinks goyfs and doesn't afraid of Counterbalance. Alternatively, most Deadguy lists have lots of spot removal, how about Abyssal Persecutor?

Pesecutor hmm... he's good with gatekeeper, vindicate, path/swords. What about Cabal Therapy?

Also, about Reanimate. Unearth is better.

[Lord_Cyrus]

Persecutor is interesting... but 4 cc I find scary in this format. Any 4 cc has a lot to live up to. He's been good in Ext for sure, just not convinced I suppose. Of all the options to get rid of him, Cabal therapy /innocent blood are probably the best two out there.

Tombstalker is amazing. Bob (can be) even more amazing. Together they create all kinds of terrible... so many people have tried and failed. In a format with a lot of Zoo and burn, Tombstalker probably wins, though, just for having a fat ass of Moti proportions. And he does cause a lot of testicular goyf shrinkage muahaha!

[Iare]

Esskay I've been successfully running Magic Work Station in Wine under linux for some time. The only issue is the cards don't render quite right but it is usuable without a virtual machine, just scroll mouse over cards and read the popup of what they are.

Weathered wayfarer was a great card many years ago and It still is in slower formats like EDH or multiplayer magic. I just think its far to slow for tournament legacy .

Reanimate > unearth because for the most part you want to steal your opponents goyf or knight of reliquary rox war monk or renaimators fatties ect ect ..

The red splash is mainly for bolt, this was actually a metagame call in response to sligh/zoo decks. But, I've found bolt being good against just about every deck in the format (barring stax where it sucks) Rift bolt really hasn't been spectacular, but chain lightning is a liablity against red decks and there alot of those around me.

As For the deck I find tombstalker more important than bob as suggested above, and I missed dark ritual too much from the last list. This is what I'm going to test.

Revised Testing list
Lands - 20
4x Scrubland
9x Fetchlands
3x Badlands
3x Swamp
1x Plains

Creatures - 14
4x Gatekeeper of malikar
4x Tombstalker
4x Steppe Lynx
2x Nyxathid

Instant- 12
4x Dark Ritual
4x Lightning bolt
4x Path to exile

Scorcery- 14
4x Duress
4x Hymn to tourach
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Reanimate



Sideboard - 15
4x Faerie Macabre
4x Vindicate
4x Mindbreak trap
3x Pithing needle <-- still not sure this is the right choice but I'm gonna try it mainly to name sensei's diving top

[EssKay]

Iare: are you running it with Wine?

[Iare]

Esskay: Yes under ubuntu 10.04 using the latest development version of wine from the software center.
Edit if you are running on a mac you can probably get the latest development release and compile it or whatever you mac people do =/

[Mystical_Jackass]

As For the deck I find tombstalker more important than bob as suggested above, and I missed dark ritual too much from the last list. This is what I'm going to test.

Revised Testing list
Lands - 20
4x Scrubland
9x Fetchlands
3x Badlands
3x Swamp
1x Plains

Creatures - 14
4x Gatekeeper of malikar
4x Tombstalker
4x Steppe Lynx
2x Nyxathid

Instant- 12
4x Dark Ritual
4x Lightning bolt
4x Path to exile

Scorcery- 14
4x Duress
4x Hymn to tourach
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Reanimate



Sideboard - 15
4x Faerie Macabre
4x Vindicate
4x Mindbreak trap
3x Pithing needle <-- still not sure this is the right choice but I'm gonna try it mainly to name sensei's diving top

Not bad I guess. Taking out the Vindicates & Bob and/or Sinkholes, it's really shifted to more of a Sui Ale or Eva White for better or for worse. You'll lose out in the CA taking out Confidant and running ritual, which is sorta an all out strategy.. they get removed your in a really crappy position, they don't you put them on a really quick clock. :smile:

I actually have a pretty descent idea, since you're running the ritual I'd really swap the Nyxathid out for Nantuko Shades. Not only do they make better work of mid-late game rituals but they come out quicker and I don't really think you're running enough discard, honestly, to make Nyxathid maximum effective. That's all I got, rest looks good.

[EssKay]

That's correct... I haven't been keeping up with The Rock for a few years now, so I had no clue they were using KoTR. In this respect my "tech" does seem kinda old. I still think it could work, but I'm not sure how. I'll keep working on this one, but honestly my main energy now is going to be towards figuring out the new meta with the decks that I am actually playing at tournaments.

Banning Mystical Tutor may have finally made this deck viable again. ANT was a pretty terrible matchup for us, so maybe things will get easier for Deadguy to live at the top tables now. I may disagree with what the DCI did, but if it can revive a deck I loved, maybe that's not so terrible. We'll see what happens.

If the changes really do impact the popularity of AnT and Reanimator, I'll probably be dropping Thoughtseize for Inquisition of Kozilek, which is way better in the Zoo matchup. Might also find some room in the SB for perish, since every other creature that sees play in Legacy is green now. Do we have any answers to the Lands matchup?

[Whit3 Ghost]

Extirpate is some good, last I heard. Barring them drawing into their lone Smokestack or a Scapeshift or something random without anything that resembles a draw engine, you should be ok if you can resolve it.

[Lord_Cyrus]

The best answer to 43 Lands, in my experience, is Extirpate/Leyline. Our best chance is to shut down their loam and crush their Mazes and Factories with our LD suite. If they get to loaming and gain significant CA from it, you're better off scooping to save time. The most frustrating thing for me about playing against a (quality) Lands player is how they abuse the time limit to their advantage. Winning against them always seems to take way too long, and if they can sneak by with a draw in what can be a difficult matchup for them, they will do it every time. Sneaky bastards! ;)

Ok so, I've resurrected my Deadguy and sleeved it up for testing, with some interesting results. The deck isn't so bad as I remembered - I think in the past I didn't play it very well perhaps.

I've come to a few conclusions:

(1) Momma IS the real sickness against Aggro!! Oh my god, how could I be so blind for so long. Mother of Runes belongs in this deck, she rapes and destroys as literally the best 1 drop in Legacy (maybe tied with Nacatl, but I don't think so). If they can burn/path her, they must do so. Otherwise she will crush them... In my test games she was MVP, the best turn 1 play possible, and one of the 3 best topdecks (others were Jotun Grunt and Stoneforge Mystic)

(2) Sinkhole is pretty poor unless backed up by an early Wasteland. I don't know what else to say here... Sinkhole's stock has been plummeting for quite some time.

(3) Stoneforge Mystic is probably a better 2-for-1 than Hymn against any deck playing creatures. I think any decent player knows that there is an inverse relationship between time passed and the power of discard. In later turns, drawing a Hymn against zoo is much the same as drawing a dead card. Stoneforge, on the other hand, rocks the world unless she is stifled. But stifle has been moving out of the format for quite some time now.

(4) Deathmark is an outstanding sideboard option atm. So is Perish. Perish is absolutely crushing, and one of the (few) major reasons I can think of to keep this deck B/W only.

(5) Vindicate is either amazing or terrible, depending on the matchup and the situation. Usually these days, it's terrible. When effective threats cost SO little (Nacatl, Steppe Lynx) Vindicate is an awful tempo loss that puts you into the tank.

That's all I've got for now... I'll post a list and some more thoughts later.

[Oiolosse]

Quick question, has anyone tried Stillmoon Cavalier? Great against removal and wear jitte beautifully! I will post my full list later, just wanted to know what y'all thought. Thanks!

[Lord_Cyrus]

Given that Bolts are almost as common as Swords for removal, and that Smother doesn't see much play, I'd honestly rather have Vampire Nighthawk. His lifelink and deathtouch are amazing for his cost.

[jrsthethird]

I tried running Mom, it was the worst decision I ever made. Zoo always had the removal for her before I could use her, and every time I wished I had something that did more than just sit there and take a Bolt.

[Lord_Cyrus]

I'm OK with her getting bolted. It's a tempo loss for them, and means one less bolt headed for our other creatures. But that sounds like poor luck... other similar decks find her such a house, like DnT. I don't think people would be talking about that deck very much without Momma. There are other good interactions in the deck, but she holds it all together.

[Iare]

Alright I'm back again with a bunch of testing done :) First thing is first Steppe lynx is good some of the time with bob + bolt. Problem is bob never sticks which in turn makes Steppe lynx a steaming pile of chump block 50% of the time >.< Even though bolt helps a ton in the zoo/merfolk/goblin matchups for gaining tempo and helping drop stalker weakening the manabase probably isn't worth it. As an aside Dark Boros is probably a good deck I might build it sometime :D

Revised Testing list ... again ... if anyone cares :P

Lands - 20
4x Scrubland
9x Fetchlands
4x Swamp
1x Kor Haven
1x Urborg Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Plains

Creatures - 13
4x Gatekeeper of malikar
4x Tombstalker
3x Nyxathid
2x Nantuko shade

Instant- 12
4x Dark Ritual
4x Smother
4x Swords

Scorcery- 15
4x Inquisition of
4x Hymn to tourach
3x Reanimate
3x Gerrard's Verdict
1x Night's Whisper

Sideboard - 15
4x Faerie Macabre
4x Vindicate
4x Mindbreak trap
3x Perish < --- Oh look what I should have had here the whole time -.- Seriously this has been a house when I need it. Only other thing testing well here is extirpate, I may swap them in for macabre so I can hit loam.

Seems this deck only functions well as a faster more consistent rock deck. And, I'm quite ok with that its been doing very well for me as of late. Gerrard's Verdict is the weakest card in the deck atm but is needed to enable nyxathid which is often the best card (Its him or tombstalker taking it home for me 90% of the time) Though gatekeeper has slowly pinged people to death. Added a kor haven and an Urborg for its and giggles, makes me more vulnerable to wasteland and kor haven has poor synergy with shade and gatekeeper but I'm gonna see how it goes anyway.

[EssKay]

The best answer to 43 Lands, in my experience, is Extirpate/Leyline. Our best chance is to shut down their loam and crush their Mazes and Factories with our LD suite. If they get to loaming and gain significant CA from it, you're better off scooping to save time. The most frustrating thing for me about playing against a (quality) Lands player is how they abuse the time limit to their advantage. Winning against them always seems to take way too long, and if they can sneak by with a draw in what can be a difficult matchup for them, they will do it every time. Sneaky bastards! ;)

Ok so, I've resurrected my Deadguy and sleeved it up for testing, with some interesting results. The deck isn't so bad as I remembered - I think in the past I didn't play it very well perhaps.

I've come to a few conclusions:

(1) Momma IS the real sickness against Aggro!! Oh my god, how could I be so blind for so long. Mother of Runes belongs in this deck, she rapes and destroys as literally the best 1 drop in Legacy (maybe tied with Nacatl, but I don't think so). If they can burn/path her, they must do so. Otherwise she will crush them... In my test games she was MVP, the best turn 1 play possible, and one of the 3 best topdecks (others were Jotun Grunt and Stoneforge Mystic)

(2) Sinkhole is pretty poor unless backed up by an early Wasteland. I don't know what else to say here... Sinkhole's stock has been plummeting for quite some time.

(3) Stoneforge Mystic is probably a better 2-for-1 than Hymn against any deck playing creatures. I think any decent player knows that there is an inverse relationship between time passed and the power of discard. In later turns, drawing a Hymn against zoo is much the same as drawing a dead card. Stoneforge, on the other hand, rocks the world unless she is stifled. But stifle has been moving out of the format for quite some time now.

(4) Deathmark is an outstanding sideboard option atm. So is Perish. Perish is absolutely crushing, and one of the (few) major reasons I can think of to keep this deck B/W only.

(5) Vindicate is either amazing or terrible, depending on the matchup and the situation. Usually these days, it's terrible. When effective threats cost SO little (Nacatl, Steppe Lynx) Vindicate is an awful tempo loss that puts you into the tank.

That's all I've got for now... I'll post a list and some more thoughts later.

Realized after I posted that I already run plenty of Lands hate. Cyrus you might be interested in this deck: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16595-[Deck]-DepthsFarer&highlight=depthsfarer which is the brainchild of a friend of mine. It uses Mom in a Deadguy shell and has some cool interactions going on.

Have you really found Stoneforge to be good against Zoo? Seems like their Pridemages have no problem dealing with the opposing Jitte, and she's not really a threat by herself. I agree that Vindicate isn't that great in the Zoo matchup...definitely a good SB swap for Perish. I also agree that Sinkhole is losing ground. Blue decks will always daze/spell pierce it, and the Zoo manabase is somehow so resilient that they can easily recover.

I'm wondering if Bitterblossom can improve the Zoo matchup at all. I've noticed that their burn/paths make it hard to get the full effectiveness from Nighthawk and Tombstalker, but I'm not sure if the extra life loss is worth it.

[Lord_Cyrus]

@ Iare: Glad you like the Perish. It's crazy good, no? That's a really interesting build - I will have to try it. I like the Nyxathid/TS split. Seems like some very strong beats. I would be interested to see what happens if you added a few more Night's Whisper.

@ Esskay: Yeah, SFM is still great. The thing is, you need to kill their Pridemage before you play it. With this build (below) that's not hard. If you need more evidence, look at the Zoo pilots running SFM to beat the mirror. If she's good enough for them, she's more than good enough for me.
I think your friend's deck is pretty interesting. Mom + vial + wayfarer engine is always solid. I worry that the deck is trying to be way too cute and that the various shenanigans won't hold up under fire. I might try it but I don't see how it is inherently better at doing what it does than, say, UW Tempo or DnT. I don't think that many people are caught with their pants down to Dark Depths combo anymore.

*********************************************************

So, I am kind of going in the opposite direction now, with a much more "traditional" build, only including a few unusual card choices. I built this list for my friend, because he loves playing Deadguy above all other decks. So far he's been rocking pretty hard with it. I played quite a few games against him with my Bant Aggro deck (pretty standard build) and it felt slightly uphill, maybe 60-40 his favor. Jotun Grunt was incredibly annoying to play against, and everytime I landed a big creature he had the removal for it.

Yo Dead Momma

4x Mother of Runes
4x Dark Confidant
4x Vampire Nighthawk
3x Jotun Grunt
3x Nantuko Shade (could become Nyxathid?? Not sure.)
2x Stoneforge Mystic (still amazing)

2x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Light and Shadow

4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Smother
4x Swords to Plowshares


4 Scrubland
7 Fetches
3 swamps
1 plains
4 wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Urborg

SB:
4 Leyline
2 Extirpate
3 Perish
3 E. Plague
3 Vindicate

Notes: No Dark Rits because they kept setting me up in terrible situations of disadvantageous 2-for-1's against me. Without rits, Gatekeeper was underperforming. I kept thinking "Damn, I really wish this was a Smother" so now it is. Vindicate only worked well against Counterbalance, so it moved to the board.

This deck still feels like it wants some accel, and now that it plays so many dudes and the curve is so lovely, Aether Vials might be nice. I'm going to try them out next.

[Iare]

@Lord Cyrus I would love to add more night's whispers to the deck I'm never unhappy to see the one I'm running now. Problem is I can't figure out what I can do with cutting from the deck. Only thing I can think of is to cut one gerrard's verdict and a nyxathid but I'm not sure it would be a better deck? Edit: maybe a single reanimate but they are so good against bluegreen.deck. I've had some form of sui assembled since I can remember and I'm convinced 12 discard spells is the right number.

[Mystical_Jackass]

*********************************************************

So, I am kind of going in the opposite direction now, with a much more "traditional" build, only including a few unusual card choices. I built this list for my friend, because he loves playing Deadguy above all other decks. So far he's been rocking pretty hard with it. I played quite a few games against him with my Bant Aggro deck (pretty standard build) and it felt slightly uphill, maybe 60-40 his favor. Jotun Grunt was incredibly annoying to play against, and everytime I landed a big creature he had the removal for it.

Yo Dead Momma

4x Mother of Runes
4x Dark Confidant
4x Vampire Nighthawk
3x Jotun Grunt
3x Nantuko Shade (could become Nyxathid?? Not sure.)
2x Stoneforge Mystic (still amazing)

2x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Light and Shadow

4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Smother
4x Swords to Plowshares


4 Scrubland
7 Fetches
3 swamps
1 plains
4 wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Urborg

SB:
4 Leyline
2 Extirpate
3 Perish
3 E. Plague
3 Vindicate

Notes: No Dark Rits because they kept setting me up in terrible situations of disadvantageous 2-for-1's against me. Without rits, Gatekeeper was underperforming. I kept thinking "Damn, I really wish this was a Smother" so now it is. Vindicate only worked well against Counterbalance, so it moved to the board.

This deck still feels like it wants some accel, and now that it plays so many dudes and the curve is so lovely, Aether Vials might be nice. I'm going to try them out next.

I missed the tourney this week :cry: I was sick as a dog

That's awesome to hear Grunt is a solid card, my list's running 3x and I got 3x Mothers thrown in too! I'm running 2x Vindicate... good just to have, I think 2 fits pretty well with the curve... and it's such a damn cool card, it's like our theme card for this deck I'd be sad to not use it :smile:

You know, I only own 1x Gatekeeper and I'd been meaning on getting a playset, but I don't run rits either so now that you say that maybe I'll stick to my original plan running Nighthawks, Grunts, MOM, Condfidant and (2x) Tombstalker (yeah, I'm going for it lol--but I'm running 2x Top so I'm hoping that will save me, 'cause Top was house when it came out)

Anyways, keep letting me know how that decks performing cause I really want to know what are the good matches, which ones suck, and what you're boarding in... cheers

[SMR0079]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=33312

I'm surprised there hasn't been more discussion on the list above, asit's the only B/W list to top eight a SCG in a long time.

I don't like the Grim Discoveries, and cut them for Grunts instead. I also run Elsepeth.

Here's my board:

3 cop red
3 Perish
3 Return to Dust
4 Leyline
2 Extirpate

Zoo is your toughest match by far, even with cop red and perich, they still can bolt nearly all your threats. getting a Sword of Fire and Ice equiped can keep you in the game but it's an uphill struggle.

[Lord_Cyrus]

I mean, that's not a bad list but looking over the matchups I feel like he got sorta lucky. I've been pretty worried about Zoo for a long time, if you go back several pages - I felt like Zoo was such a terrible M/U that this deck was dead in the water.

But with my newest list I feel like I have a shot. Mom can really swing the game around, especially when she is guarding a grunt or nighthawk holding a Jitte. Yeah Bolts are bad news for us. Yeah, Zoo runs 8 or more. But they don't always have one - and when they don't, my list above is able to capitalize on that and stay in the game.

I don't feel like running atrocious cards in the SB such as COP red do anything to help the matchup. If you really want to win this one against the Sligh-type builds, you need a bomb like Kor Firewalker. But mostly what I can recommend is running a full 8 maindeck removal, and Mom. And then practice it a lot. It will never be one of your better matchups but it is winnable. If you can survive their early game and trade removal to keep the board under control, you can get there.

[Mystical_Jackass]

And wasting Zoo's mana base while getting our creatures PtE aint so bad.. I'll take my land drop back plz ;)

I've also had some success with Dystopia, using mono black control lists. Just making sure you remove their Pridemages, if you can keep it out for 2-3 turns and take a small life hit I've often equilibrated at like 5-8 life and won since they lose so much momentum.

[EssKay]

Esskay I've been successfully running Magic Work Station in Wine under linux for some time. The only issue is the cards don't render quite right but it is usuable without a virtual machine, just scroll mouse over cards and read the popup of what they are.


Ok so I finally got around to installing MWS via Wine, and everything seems great except that MWSPlay crashes ALL THE TIME. Still, better than nothing I guess.

[Fons]

Ok so I finally got around to installing MWS via Wine, and everything seems great except that MWSPlay crashes ALL THE TIME. Still, better than nothing I guess.

What distro?

[SMR0079]

As long as you are playing black based disruption you are going to have a bad Zoo match (and struggle against red in general) no matter what you do. At best, you are trying to make the match winnable. Cop Red stops you from getting burned out or straight rushed by Gobos, but it does nothing to stop your creatures from getting burned out. I'll try out Mother, but I have suspicion that you are pissing in the wind, at least against Zoo.

Here is my recent build:

BitterBlossom, Tombstalker, Nighthawk, Gatekeeper, Stoneforge Mystic, Elspeth
Dark Ritual, Thought seize, Hymn, StP, Vindicate, Jitte, Sword of Fire Ice/Shadow and light
SB: Perish, CoP Red, Leyline, Return to Dust

It's been giving every blue deck fits, and aggro loam, but still struggles against Zoo and Gobos.

BiiterBlossom and tombstalkers over bobs has been a definite improvement, especially against Zoo and Gobbos. Bitterblossom goes well with the equip plan and provides much needed blockers. Tombstalker provides a must deal with threat that requires more then one bolt to finish.

Thoughts?

[EssKay]

What distro?

Gentoo. MWS seems to be working fine, but MWSPlay has all sorts of problems.

[klaus]

The list below fares pretty well against aggro.dec as Kitchen Finks AND Nighthawk do their job kinda neatly. It might seem kinda overkill to have 8 lifegainers after boarding but I'm positive that tribal-aggro numbers will explode now that combo has suffered a fatal blow.

Also, Vial is a must here. With all that mana-hungry equipment it really shines as a pseudo mana source.
Most choices are proven and the SB is quite self-explanatory. If there's anything you find odd about the list let me know.

On a sidenote - Mother of Runes made me consider Tidehollow Sculler again - what do you think?


>>BW_2.1<<

4 Aether Vial
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Dark Confidant
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Kitchen Finks
4 Mother of Runes
3 Serra Avenger
3 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Swords to Plowshares

3 Vindicate
4 Thoughtseize

4 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Plains
2 Swamp

SB:
3 Perish
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Relic of Progenitus
4 Duress

[EssKay]

So I've been trying to test out a few changes, mostly trying to improve the Zoo matchup, and have come to a few preliminary conclusions:

1. Nyxathid is totally underwhelming in play. Even if you open with a lot of discard, he doesn't seem to get much bigger than 5/5, and KotR is usually bigger. All they have to do is wait a turn or two to break the stalemate, unless you can constantly hit them with discard.

2. Abyssal Persecutor is decent, but that cmc4 really makes a difference sometimes, will try a 2/2 split with Tombstalker

3. I'm really torn about Gatekeeper of Malakir. On the one hand Edict + guy seems really good. On the other, I find myself either holding him waiting for them to play a creature, having a Wasteland instead of the third :B: , or wishing I could target that huge Knight/Goyf when they have 3-4 creatures on the board. I'm really considering just running smother instead. It hits everything relevant (besides Tombstalker), costs less, and is instant. Either that or I may drop the Wastelands for more swamps.

I haven't tested post-board, but I think it could actually be pretty favorable if done properly. As Zoo has moved to more graveyard dependance with KotR, Goyf, and Grim Lavamancer, Leyline has gotten much better (always surprised how many matchups that card improves).

Other things I'm going to be trying out: 2/2 split of Tombstalker and Bitterblossom. I used to run 3x Bitterblossom main, and it's amazingly good if not answered quickly. Also will try more testing of Arena vs. Bob. Last time I decided I didn't like it almost immediately, and I think I need to try again. I feel like somewhere in here is a magical combination of control + threats that is just waiting to be found.

[kramer733]

Hey i'm new to this forum and i raelly want to get into legacy. This deck seems like it's pretty cheap and easy to make as well. I only need 4 more duals and 3 nantuko shades, and 1 sword of Fire and Ice then i'm done. Can somebody check if my deck is alright? Right now, i don't raelly have anybody to play legacy with but i'm trying to find people.

4 Dark Confidant
2 Nantuko Shade
1 abyssal persecutor
4 vampire nighthawk
2 Stoneforge Mystic >> 13

1 Elspeth, Knight - Errant

2 Sensei’s Divining Top
3 swords to plowshares
1 path to exile
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Sword of fire and ice
4 Dark Ritual
4 Oblivion Ring
>> 25

4 wasteland
3 swamps
3 plains
4 scrublands
6 fetches
2 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth >> 22

[MrShine]

If you guys are having trouble against aggro I would suggest trying Elspeth (I noticed some people have been including her in the lists), either out of the board or maindeck, as a 2 of; She is great when you have any sort of removal because they have to over extend like crazy to gain any advantage which you can then capitalize on (with, say, Perish). That, and Kitchen Finks w/ SoLS for recurring lifegain is the nuts.

Targeted discard is good against goblins - if you can remove their Vial, Matron or Ringleader you should be OK in the first few turns (which matter most in this matchup) until you can find Jitte or SoFI (which shouldn't be too hard with SFM - this guy is too good vs aggro not to run). I think it is a big mistake not to be capitalizing on the Stoneforge plan here, it is one of the best sources of reliable card advantage in white right now and allows you to play a toolbox type package for various matchups (protection vs various colours eg blue vs merfolk, or Lightning Greaves out of the board for matches like Lands).

I'm also of the opinion that Smother should be good here too, especially over Gatekeeper; the majority of threats played these days ARE CMC 3 or less (New Horizons, Merfolk, Zoo). It's also an Instant, which is nothing to sneeze at.

[Osmin]

Lists with vials resemble UW Tempo with B instead of U. But UW Tempo is fast deck with only 16 or 17 lands. And I think counters are more useful than discards.
May be someone can find some useful info from UW Tempo thread :))

[Libeck]

You have probably gone through this already but why is this deck evolving more towards a B/W midrange equipment deck then the original Pikkula LD version???

[EssKay]

LD just isn't as effective as it used to be. You've got LED/Chrome Mox/Mox Diamond seeing a lot of play, better draw manipulation via Top/Cantrips, things like crucible, counterbalance, and spell snare running around, and most importantly, most decks just don't need that much land to run. Combo and Dredge run off almost nothing, and everything else tends to have a curve that maxes out at cmc3. Sometimes you can keep your opponent off one color for a turn or two, but practically every deck out there is quick to re-stabilize.

At this point I think Vindicate is still valid because it can blow up just about anything, although it feels slower and slower, but Sinkhole just doesn't have much impact on the average game, unless you're going for a more dedicated disruption route like Pox.

[Libeck]

But you have tons of answerers to LED/Chrome Mox/Mox Diamond don't you?
i am finding the hardest matches against AEther vail...

i am using this

4 Scrublands
4 Wastlands
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained mire
1 tainted Field
7 Swamp

4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Dark Confidant
3 Jötun Grunt
3 Nantuko Shade

4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
4 Sinkhole
4 Dark Ritual
4 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares

i really want to discuss this so i can get a better understanding of things and mabey contribute with some things of my own.

[dirtyapes]

@ Libeck
I think your list would benefit from running at least a single Plains and Marsh Flats instead of Deltas/Mires. This would remove the need for the Tainted Field which I have always felt was underwelming when running this deck. I always wanted it to be a Swamp or Fetchland everytime I drew it. Other than that, your list is quite similar to the list I run when I play this in B/w. I would like to know how you do with it in the next tournament you play in.

[Libeck]

@ Libeck
I think your list would benefit from running at least a single Plains and Marsh Flats instead of Deltas/Mires. This would remove the need for the Tainted Field which I have always felt was underwelming when running this deck. I always wanted it to be a Swamp or Fetchland everytime I drew it. Other than that, your list is quite similar to the list I run when I play this in B/w. I would like to know how you do with it in the next tournament you play in.

Will do =)
I just love the synergy between Discard and LD

[kramer733]

Um just a request but can somebody look at my decklist and give me pointers on this deck? I have jotun grunts as well.


4 Dark Confidant
2 Nantuko Shade
1 abyssal persecutor
4 vampire nighthawk
2 Stoneforge Mystic >> 13

1 Elspeth, Knight - Errant

2 Sensei’s Divining Top
3 swords to plowshares
1 path to exile
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Sword of fire and ice
4 Dark Ritual
4 Oblivion Ring
>> 25

4 wasteland
3 swamps
3 plains
4 scrublands
6 fetches
2 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth >> 22

[EssKay]

Um just a request but can somebody look at my decklist and give me pointers on this deck? I have jotun grunts as well.

Deck

Try out Inquisition of Kozilek instead of Thoughtseize. I've been testing with it and it seems much better against aggro decks. Other than that I would find room for the last Hymn, maybe take out a PtE or O.Ring, consider replacing the O.Rings with Vindicates.

[GUdrus]

I am testing a list similar to one that top8ed in SCG Open Seattle (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=33312)

54 MD cards that I am more or less firm about:

Deck
4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
1 Godless Shrine
1 Plains
6 Swamp
4 Wasteland
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Jotun Grunt 4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

That leaves 6 more slots for creatures, and I can't decide what to put in. Possible options:

2 Abyssal Persecutor, 4 Gatekeeper of Malakir - a very strong creature that I can cast as early as turn 2, stronger than Tombstalker and with less possible life loss from Confidant. With 12 removal to kill it + Jitte as a last resort, I should not have problem to get rid of him.

3 Vampire Nighthawk, 3 Gatekeeper of Malakir - original package from TOP8 deck. I feel this creature package is lacking a punch, thought I might be wrong.

4 Nantuko Shade, 2 Gatekeeper of Malakir - Shade is still a top creature when used in a right deck

3 Nantuko Shade, 3 Vampire Nighthawk - a strong punch against aggro.

Currently, I am leaning most to ether 2 Persecutor/4 Gatekeeper package or 3 Shade/3 Nighthawk pacakge.

Comments on this issue?

[Oiolosse]

I am testing a list similar to one that top8ed in SCG Open Seattle (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=33312)

54 MD cards that I am more or less firm about:

Deck
4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
1 Godless Shrine
1 Plains
6 Swamp
4 Wasteland
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Jotun Grunt 4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

That leaves 6 more slots for creatures, and I can't decide what to put in. Possible options:

2 Abyssal Persecutor, 4 Gatekeeper of Malakir - a very strong creature that I can cast as early as turn 2, stronger than Tombstalker and with less possible life loss from Confidant. With 12 removal to kill it + Jitte as a last resort, I should not have problem to get rid of him.

3 Vampire Nighthawk, 3 Gatekeeper of Malakir - original package from TOP8 deck. I feel this creature package is lacking a punch, thought I might be wrong.

4 Nantuko Shade, 2 Gatekeeper of Malakir - Shade is still a top creature when used in a right deck

3 Nantuko Shade, 3 Vampire Nighthawk - a strong punch against aggro.

Currently, I am leaning most to ether 2 Persecutor/4 Gatekeeper package or 3 Shade/3 Nighthawk pacakge.

Comments on this issue?

3 Nighthawk and 3 Stillmoon Cavalier. If you are going to dump mana into a creature (Shade) then might as well dump it into a creature with three forms of evasion and first strike. It pumps, but slowly. It carries equipment better and with sword of fire and ice it is basically unkillable.

[GUdrus]

Stillmoon cavalier lacks the immediate board presence other options at similar cost have.

[Iare]

Oiolosse, 4x Gatekeepers are a must they are so good against other aggro control decks after that I would go with a 3rd Jotun Grunt and a shade maybe?

[EssKay]

Anyone in here keeping an eye on the thread for The Gate? Zoo and other fast aggro seems to be our weak point, but is one of the best matchups for the Gate. To sum it up for those that haven't been following it, The Gate is a mono-black deck that aims to disrupt early with discard and sac effects, then dominate the midgame with Abyssal Persecutor. Does anyone else think we can tap into some of their aggro hate without losing the versatility that the white splash allows for?

For reference, the lastest Gate decklist is here:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16885-[Deck]-The-Gate/page21

[Deviruchi]

Hi

A month ago in my town we have finished our second Legacy League which was a cycle of six tournaments (~25 players / tournament, diverse metagame with many tier1 decks). In general statistic I was placed 2nd (in first League I got 8th place with chances to top4 but I had to miss last tournament). Obviously I used again six times Deadguy Ale so I thought it would be important to write about it [I won 2x (reports somewhere on previous pages), finished in money 3x, I could have finished 5x but I'm just a human and I did few mistakes, also played 1 tournament with high fever so...]. In pre ban world when both players play at their top level this deck was losing badly only to AdN and Dragon Stompy, other matchups were ~ok or good, +advantage was because I tested A LOT more vs. them then they vs. Deadguy Ale ;)

To help others who like this kind of deck these are the biggest problems for this deck now:

- Iona white (use SB Edict like Nelson, singleton MB and 1 SB like me or try Gatekeeper of Malakir with proper manabase. Damn, I even tried Sudden Spoiling vs. Iona/Progenitus/Eldrazi but it was too conditional and narrow).
- Combo decks - play ~100 games from their sides and learn their weaknesses. Try to exploit them and get better draws then combo pilot cause you don't have much chance with even draws. Remember about EE or E.Plague (EtW).
- Zoo - test a lot. Try to use Perish and EE like me. E.Plague is nice vs. Cat version. Bad matchup but winnable.
- Dragon Stompy - ask judge to make new pairings. Your worst matchup. Could get better if you use Edicts & basics with any chance to find them.
- If you know your metagame very well you should try 1-2x E.Tutor + toolbox SB, this strategy is very effective.


8th place of Brad Nelson at GP Columbus (he should defeat Saito if he knew better how to play vs Merfolks) who used Brian Kowal's another evolution from his GP Chicago deck, proves that this kind of deck can do well.

Brad Nelson’s 8th place decklist (if you haven’t seen it yet):

2 Bayou
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
1 Plains
3 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Gerrard's Verdict
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Mox Diamond
1 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
4 Vindicate

Sideboard:

3 Diabolic Edict
3 Duress
4 Engineered Plague
3 Extirpate
2 Pernicious Deed

About differences in Nelson's / my list:

+ KotR / - Tombstalker
+ Mox Diamond / - Dark Ritual
+ Gerrard's Verdict / - Smother/Edict
+ Deed in SB / - EE in SB
+ KotR manabase / - more stable manabase

Different creature’s angle but the same structure and even proportion. His SB looks very nice for GP metagame. The only thing I miss is Perish but I suppose he just can't use it with 8 green creatures, with 4 in my list it's not a problem.

I abandoned this deck for a while trying something different but GP top8 (cause of DQ but still) proves that Deadguy Ale is still playable in good hands. If you have any questions feel free to ask, it's my pet deck for more than 3 years.

Deviruchi

[Angels]

I remember the old Pikula deck that ran Sinkholes. I believe that we can slow the tempo having pretty much land destruction cards (Wastelands, Vindicates, Sinkholes).

[EssKay]

@Deviruchi - That sounds way more like the rock than Deadguy Ale to me. The strategies are similar but Deadguy tends to forego the green splash for fatties/deed in favor of consistency with a predominantly black list and white splash. They are definitely both disrupt early -> dominate strategies, but I think lists with green added need to stick to the Rock thread, as card choices and matchups can be significantly different.

[Whit3 Ghost]

Except the Rock runs a bunch of mid-lategame bombs and the list from the GP doesn't. Whether a list has Tarmogoyf or not doesn't affect what type of deck it is. Goyf/Knight/Diamond is just way more cost-effective and powerful right now than say, Shade/Stalker/Ritual. They play the same way. It's absolutely Deadguy.

[Oiolosse]

Oiolosse, 4x Gatekeepers are a must they are so good against other aggro control decks after that I would go with a 3rd Jotun Grunt and a shade maybe?

I choose to run Cabal Therapy which is annoying along side Jotun Grunt. I have nixed grunt altogether for more spot removal.

[Justin]

I've been going with this list for BW disruption (Deadguy Ale). I really love Stoneforge Mystic and her ability to tutor for equipment and then cheat it into play. The equipment gives this deck some power and puts the opponent on a faster clock. I also like the idea of this deck as "Hander Lander." Including the versitile Vindicate in all these categories, it has 12 land destruction cards, 12 hand destruction cards (including Hymn which gets two for one), and 11 creature removal (13 if you count Jitte and SoFI). The deck also generates a lot of card advantage. Gatekeeper, Mystic, Tidehollow, Hymn, and Confidant all give you a two for one, while Confidant can generate more card advantage than that (as can the swords). I've only tested this version a little bit, but it's smashed Merfolk for me a couple times.

// Lands
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
7 Swamp
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
1 Plains

// Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tidehollow Sculler

// Spells
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Sinkhole

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Engineered Plague
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 Sadistic Sacrament
SB: 4 Perish

[EssKay]

Here's my most recent list, an attempt at a hybrid between the Gate and Deadguy:


4 Dark Confidant
4 Innocent Blood
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtsieze
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Bitterblossom
3 Vampire Hexmage
3 Dark Depths
3 Vindicate
2 Umezawa's Jitte

9 Swamp
4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Perish
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Engineered Plague
2 Extirpate


Basically I'm trying to take what I think gives the Gate a good aggro matchup and combine it with the versatility we get from the white splash. Basically the idea is to control the early game with cheap removal and discard, while amassing jitte holders or finding Marit Lage. The DepthsMage bit could easily be replaced by Abyssal Persecutor/Cabal Therapy.

I think the interesting (controversial?) thing here is not what's in the list, but what's been taken out, namely Dark Ritual and Wasteland. Both are usually considered staples in black lists, but after running them for so long, I'm beginning to question their utility when it comes to my overall strategy.

Ritual allows for early explosiveness, but can be a frustratingly dead draw in the mid to late game unless you're trying to crank out multiple Tombstalkers. I do still miss them on occasion if I have an opening hand with Hymn + Thoughtseize, but overall I'm finding Innocent Blood to be a fine replacement.

Wasteland I'm still a bit unsure about. It can be a backbreaker to the opponent that keeps a greedy hand. Conversely, it can also be nothing more than a 1-turn setback for both players, and at worst it can be a terrible topdeck if you're trying to hit BBB early for Gatekeeper, and just as bad mid-game when both players have all the land they need anyway. I decided to take it out because I was finding it to be pointless or bad more often than great, and land destruction is really fairly pointless unless you're going to dedicate a fair portion of the deck to it.

So far testing results have been good, I've mostly been testing against Zoo and the matchup seems to have improved considerably. I'm still on the fence about Thoughtsieze Vs. Duress Vs. Inquisition of Kozilek, and wondering if I need to cut something to put in the fourth Bitterblossom. Questions/Comments are welcome.

[yougo]

First question, how hexmage have been for you for me it seems good but im not sure right now if its more of a shananigan?

Second question: what is the goal of this deck ??? i was reading the thread a couple page before this one and someone ask this question, and is a fucking great question i must say.

i would like your reflexion on this cause i feel this deck need a general direction for me i could see this deck in the tier 1 it has so much power so much potential but first, is it a control deck, aggro, tempo, disruptive deck ??? I think we must focus on this first and after that we could start a solid primer

I personaly think this deck has the potantial to be all of the ''3 sphere'' aggro control combo i think the real power of the deck is to be the most resiliant deck ever taht has virtually no bad match up nor than no auto win match too. With the card pool we got we can do this

First the direction: resiliant is the word, does the hexmage depht is that solid? cause if so, we cant run wasteland cant we?

Second card selection : im awaiting your suggestion but lets not waste time here, some auto include card

4x swords to plowshare
4 x dark confidant
stoneforge mistyc (for those who did not try this card IT'S JUST DEADLY)
bitterblossom ?

so im awaiting your suggestion let's stop posting some list and star focusing on the direction and your point of view of the BW archetype.

Awaiting your post.

Sincerly yougo

ps. sorry for my poor writing:eyebrow:

[EssKay]

First question, how hexmage have been for you for me it seems good but im not sure right now if its more of a shananigan?


Depths/Mage is surprisingly decent. Around here my only opportunity to play the deck is in Vintage tournaments, so there aren't as many StP/PtEs running around, but Wasteland and counters are everywhere, and it still manages to get there 80% of the time. The important thing to remember is that it's too fragile to try and use as a primary win condition. The deck is resilient enough to win without seeing either piece, but the combo allows you to occasionally pull a T4 win out of nowhere. Against Zoo I always try to wait until I have StP backup, so that if they try to Path Marit Lage, I can at least net 20 life off it.



Second question: what is the goal of this deck ??? i was reading the thread a couple page before this one and someone ask this question, and is a fucking great question i must say.

i would like your reflexion on this cause i feel this deck need a general direction for me i could see this deck in the tier 1 it has so much power so much potential but first, is it a control deck, aggro, tempo, disruptive deck ??? I think we must focus on this first and after that we could start a solid primer


I think it depends how you want to play it. Personally, I play it primarily as a control deck. I've found that going with as much discard as possible makes it easier to stick everything, especially Bob. Lists running Ritual and Tombstalker may be more geared for an explosive early game, like the original Pikula list. It all comes down to card choices and your preferred style. Personally though I feel like the more aggro lists aren't fast enough to compete with Zoo, but can run out of steam just as fast.



I personaly think this deck has the potantial to be all of the ''3 sphere'' aggro control combo i think the real power of the deck is to be the most resiliant deck ever taht has virtually no bad match up nor than no auto win match too. With the card pool we got we can do this

First the direction: resiliant is the word, does the hexmage depht is that solid? cause if so, we cant run wasteland cant we?

Second card selection : im awaiting your suggestion but lets not waste time here, some auto include card

4x swords to plowshare
4 x dark confidant
stoneforge mistyc (for those who did not try this card IT'S JUST DEADLY)
bitterblossom ?

so im awaiting your suggestion let's stop posting some list and star focusing on the direction and your point of view of the BW archetype.

Awaiting your post.

Sincerly yougo

ps. sorry for my poor writing:eyebrow:

Well here's my two cents: I think the deck needs to move towards a control archetype. A stable manabase and lots of sac and discard effects can let you ride out the early game, destroying the card advantage of control decks and running aggro lists out of steam. Cards like Gatekeeper, Hymn, Bitterblossom, and Jitte all help to generate card advantage and board position. Faster lists trade consistency and draw quality for explosiveness, but I would personally rather have better draws and slowly dominate the board.

[yougo]

yeah im pretty sure your quite right the control sphere looks more appeiling and i start to see some devlopement

skeleton number 1:

creature 12

4 dark confidant
4 gatekeper of malakir
4 stoneforge mistyc

disrupt 11

4 sword to plowshare
4 thoughtseize
3 vindicate

spell 7

4 bitterblossom
1 jitte
1 solas
1 sofi

30 cards that im pretty are what the deck should always run so now the big question are comming: more disruption? more aggresive? hexmage combo? let's brainstorm on those basis

[EssKay]

yeah im pretty sure your quite right the control sphere looks more appeiling and i start to see some devlopement

skeleton number 1:

creature 12

4 dark confidant
4 gatekeper of malakir
4 stoneforge mistyc

disrupt 11

4 sword to plowshare
4 thoughtseize
3 vindicate

spell 7

4 bitterblossom
1 jitte
1 solas
1 sofi

30 cards that im pretty are what the deck should always run so now the big question are comming: more disruption? more aggresive? hexmage combo? let's brainstorm on those basis

Nighthawk and Hymn should also be auto-includes.

[Oiolosse]

I'll post my list later but it is pretty much control heavy deadguy ale. Elspeth is incredible. Also, cabal therapy is insane with bitterblossom, elspeth and bob.

[yougo]

Whats your point of view over wasteland dark depht or a classic control suited land package that is my speed bump right now

[EssKay]

AFAIK, I'm the only person running the Depths/Mage combo in Deadguy. For those that don't like that, I'd suggest putting in 3x Abyssal Persecutor and 3x Cabal Therapy instead. I felt like Wasteland was only great in matches where the opponent was greedy. Most of the time, it was just a minor speed bump in the early game, and totally pointless late. My opinion is that if you're going to try to disrupt your opponent's manabase, you have to dedicate a good portion of the deck to doing so for it to be an effective strategy. If you run 4x Vindicate, Wasteland, and Sinkhole, that's one thing, but less LD than that starts to become pointless.

[sporenfrosch1411]

Here is what im thinking about right now (y im kinda interested in this thread now, congratulations to esskay :D )

As u can see, its too much.
To be precise its 62 Cards :)

4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Dark Confidant
4 Abyssal Persecutor
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir

4 Vindicate
4 Innocent Blood
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Bitterblossom
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

2 Elspeth, Knight Errant

4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
3 Wasteland
8 Swamp
2 Plains


Some Notes:
Duress over Thoughtseize because creatures should be no problem regarding that i have innocent blood, gatekeeper and vindicate
Stoneforge as a 3 off, cause i only could make room for 3 equippments....maybe i make a mistake here ;)
Elspeth....well i kinda asked myself looking at her "it feels like a bitterblossom, a vulnerable bitterblossom"....that can pull tricks MAYBE... im very unsure if she is needed (yy her ulti is good, but hey, it takes an eternity...)
3 Wasteland, because i dont go LandDestruction but rather need to have an answer on some tool-lands.
It may sound stupid, but i think about if its possible to get the list without duals (so no wasteland can hit me, i just LOVE how my TheGate can avoid that ;) )

Give me some feedback, rant my decisions :)
(PS: first time for me to participate in any deadguy-discussion / thinking process , so dont be too hard on me)
At first glance, i must say the list appeals to my eye though

[yougo]

i think it's simply impossible running 4 persecutor thaught i know its a good card i did played it a while ago and it serve me great but i was running dark ritual at the time without it you will most likely winning or losing with some in your hand

and for what i know of bitterblossom, i would always use the whole playset its giving you the game againts control

this is my list so far tell me about it

creature 14

4 dark confidant
4 stoneforger mistyc
3 vampire nighthawk
3 gatekeeper of malakir

disrupt 17

4 swords to plowshare
4 thoughseize
4 hymn to tourach
2 gerrads verdict
3 vindicate

spell 7

4 bitterblossom
1 solas
1 sofi
1 jitte

land mana 22

4 wasteland
4 scrubland
7 fetch
2 bojuka bog
4 swamp
1 plain

sideboard

3 extirpate
3 perish
2 pithing needle
2 doom blade
2 bojuka bog
3 elspeth


in this build im running wasteland, i actualy like wasteland with vindicate and extirpate in board it can give you game. but i agree
with EssKay taught

whitout dark ritual to explode wasteland seems a bit pointless and you always need to see that second land so most of the game you have to forget about disrrupting your opponant mana and if you do it and he still drop a land at is turn your just screwd most of the time

the bojuka bog seem somehow bizzare i guess but i like them againts so many deck this comes out of nowhere and screw their plan' maybe i like them bcause they didnt fuck me over well in that case further testing are required

i gotta say that i like that abyssal persecutor but dont find spot in the board to play them, but i think i would run only 2 of them you never wanna get stuck with 2 in your hand anyway 2 seems like the right number . ho and by the way i dont think you really need a sacrifice outlet with the persecutor i was running it without anything like cabal therapy and i never lost a game with it in play its just almost impossible for your opponant to win over an abyssal when hes in nega

so im thinking right now to cut the wasteland putting land (bojuka bog maybe? i dont know)and maybe add a couple of abyssal persecutor or try some elspeth in the main board

I'll be back

[sporenfrosch1411]

I dont understand your point against Persecutor. He is good even without Dark Ritual (look @ TheGate).....
Wasteland btw doesnt ONLY serve a manadenial plan, its also nice versus some tool lands. Imo Wasteland is no "4 or nothing", you can perfectly play 3 and be sure to draw one along the first 3 turns... which should be enough to take care of e.g. Maze of Ith, Tabernacle or w/e else :)
If we´d go LandDestruction, you´d had to add Sinkhole anyway, but we are not just because we play Wastelands

[Oiolosse]

Here is what im thinking about right now (y im kinda interested in this thread now, congratulations to esskay :D )

As u can see, its too much.
To be precise its 62 Cards :)

4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Dark Confidant
4 Abyssal Persecutor
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir

4 Vindicate
4 Innocent Blood
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Bitterblossom
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

2 Elspeth, Knight Errant

4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
3 Wasteland
8 Swamp
2 Plains


Some Notes:
Duress over Thoughtseize because creatures should be no problem regarding that i have innocent blood, gatekeeper and vindicate
Stoneforge as a 3 off, cause i only could make room for 3 equippments....maybe i make a mistake here ;)
Elspeth....well i kinda asked myself looking at her "it feels like a bitterblossom, a vulnerable bitterblossom"....that can pull tricks MAYBE... im very unsure if she is needed (yy her ulti is good, but hey, it takes an eternity...)
3 Wasteland, because i dont go LandDestruction but rather need to have an answer on some tool-lands.
It may sound stupid, but i think about if its possible to get the list without duals (so no wasteland can hit me, i just LOVE how my TheGate can avoid that ;) )

Give me some feedback, rant my decisions :)
(PS: first time for me to participate in any deadguy-discussion / thinking process , so dont be too hard on me)
At first glance, i must say the list appeals to my eye though

Does Bob eat your heart out in that list?

[sporenfrosch1411]

Since i have Jitte, Nighthawk and SoLaS for lifegain and enuff stuff to get rid of him (if i ever want to) -> nope, he is fine, though i cant deny he can hurt A LOT.

But hey, what 2 Cards would you cut to go down on 60 :) ?

[EssKay]

I would consider cutting the following:

Elspeth/Persecutor: you really don't want 6 cards at cmc 4. The double white in Elspeth's cost is going to be a pain to manage, but she is really good. Even without her I'd drop to 3 Persecutors.

Stoneforge: Yeah she's a great utility/card advantage creature, but 3 is overkill because she isn't really a threat on her own, run 2 max

Vindicate: 3 has been working well for me. It's an answer to everything, but a slow, expensive answer. I generally only need it to pop annoying enchantments or plainswalkers.

Also, I would try to find room for StP in there. In transitioning from the Gate, you've dropped Deathmark, and in my opinion having a cmc1 removal spell is essential to surviving the initial onslaught of fast aggro.

Finally, Bojuka Bog in the main seems bad. You have no way to tutor it up, can't fetch it, and have access to much better graveyard hate for your sideboard. Leyline of the Void is practically a free pass through any round against Dredge, Lands, Aggro Loam, etc. that you can afford to lose game 1.

[RichardK]

What about decklists running no Wasteland?

I've found this recent decklist that won a smaller tourney: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=37411

It has no Wastelands. Any reason for that?

[EssKay]

What about decklists running no Wasteland?

I've found this recent decklist that won a smaller tourney: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=37411

It has no Wastelands. Any reason for that?


Read the last couple pages of this thread, posts like http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?2597-%5BDeck%5D-Deadguy-Ale-%28B-w-Confidant%29&p=481404&viewfull=1#post481404 should help you out

[Oiolosse]

Since i have Jitte, Nighthawk and SoLaS for lifegain and enuff stuff to get rid of him (if i ever want to) -> nope, he is fine, though i cant deny he can hurt A LOT.

But hey, what 2 Cards would you cut to go down on 60 :) ?

Yeah, 3 Vindicate should be fine. Also, 4 Persecutor seems way too high.

SoLS could be Basilisk Collar. Basilisk Collar with Elspeth and Bitterblossom is nuts in my testing. Jitte and Collar are best with Bitterblossom imo. I run 4 BB though, it's just that good.

I agree with StP, I run 4 and will never, ever run less.

[Justin]

I would consider cutting the following:

Elspeth/Persecutor: you really don't want 6 cards at cmc 4. The double white in Elspeth's cost is going to be a pain to manage, but she is really good. Even without her I'd drop to 3 Persecutors.

Stoneforge: Yeah she's a great utility/card advantage creature, but 3 is overkill because she isn't really a threat on her own, run 2 max

Vindicate: 3 has been working well for me. It's an answer to everything, but a slow, expensive answer. I generally only need it to pop annoying enchantments or plainswalkers.

Also, I would try to find room for StP in there. In transitioning from the Gate, you've dropped Deathmark, and in my opinion having a cmc1 removal spell is essential to surviving the initial onslaught of fast aggro.

Finally, Bojuka Bog in the main seems bad. You have no way to tutor it up, can't fetch it, and have access to much better graveyard hate for your sideboard. Leyline of the Void is practically a free pass through any round against Dredge, Lands, Aggro Loam, etc. that you can afford to lose game 1.

I agree that it would be nice to fit Elspeth in here, but I think the double white is too much of a problem. Resolving her against mana denial decks is difficult.

Stoneforge Mystic is the MVP of the deck and I would run no less than four. It is a threat because it grabs equipment and essentailly turns your entire team into potential threats. Often times, whether I win or lose with this deck depends on whether or not I drew a Mystic.

I go with Swords to Plowshares and Vindicate, both with four copies. The removal that they provide is too good.

[Justin]

One underrated cards that I've been impressed with lately is Tidehollow Sculler. It significantly improves your combo matchup. It's also outstanding against any deck that doesn't run a ton of spot removal (like Zoo). It's strong against Control and Merfolk. It's also powerful if you draw multiple of them and it picks up equipment nicely.

[yougo]

wow this is nice to see some action in that thread

I will totally test a version without wasteland gatekeeper seems way more powerfull and abysssal and elspeth seem way more playable too.By the way why not a 2|2 split 6 spoell with cmc 4 is too much but 4 seems okay

The fact that now we can see path to exiled in the sideboard againts zoo tribal (gobbos and fishman) seems very powerfull.

In my older list i was playing the colar and it was absolutly nuts againts reanimator but i dont see the point now that reanimator is dead.

Iv'e never like tidehallow sculler thaught i always like things that can get rid of problem now instesd of putting them for later
and as for the combo argumant i will say wich combo? Well maybe not you but since the ban of m tutor i dont see any combo deck in my meta if this situation had to change i will adapt for it in the sideboard but for now i dont think the scullar is such a geat idea

4 stoneforge mistyc is i think a stapler i would never run less than 4 period:cool:

ho by the way guys have you seen the spoiler of the sword of body and mind

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=108819&stc=1&d=1281004484

seems like a new recruit how do you feel about it (it has protection againts tarmogoyf:wink:)

[caiomarcos]

You better have pro-goyf, because it is going to be huge. It also comboes very well with Jötun Grunt.

[EssKay]

I agree that it would be nice to fit Elspeth in here, but I think the double white is too much of a problem. Resolving her against mana denial decks is difficult.

Stoneforge Mystic is the MVP of the deck and I would run no less than four. It is a threat because it grabs equipment and essentailly turns your entire team into potential threats. Often times, whether I win or lose with this deck depends on whether or not I drew a Mystic.

I go with Swords to Plowshares and Vindicate, both with four copies. The removal that they provide is too good.

Do you not have trouble with people blowing up the equipment, leaving you with just an extra 1/2?

[yougo]

hey justin, are you playing with wasteland or not?

this is my major question right now wasteland or not we should do a vote:eek:

4 vindicate yeah i get it but do you stomp land often with it or not ?

cause if yes then wasteland seems good paired with vindicate, the fact is if you c an screw your opponent the turn he miss a land drop well wasteland give you game but againts tribal aggro or 2 color or eaven 1 color deck wsteland is just a colorless source wich is not good

for myself i like wasteland give me game quite often but the deck curve at 2 and if we let wasteland down we have new path open for us elspeth or abyssal that help the control and the aggro matchup for the second one

we need to clear the mana source wasteland or not that is the question it would be awsome if all the people who are interested by this thread vote and give the pros and the cons of it

so people wasteland or not???

and also sword of body and mind playable for you??? and why

[yougo]

sorry for the double posting but i forgot a major quetion: how many land would you play and why and what is you ideal curve???

[sporenfrosch1411]

Sword of Body and Mind is a nice option to add as a one-off that can be fetched via Stoneforge Mystic. Prot:green (goyf, KotR) and Prot:blue (merfolk) is not bad imo.
I also would not underestimate the power of getting 2/2 Bears for every hit the opponent takes. It improves your board position while u mill 10 cards - which is not to be underestimated as well. If not for the bears, i think the sword would be too weak, but getting the sword on any kind of evasive creatures is a huge problem for some decks. You are more variable with the choice u fetch, thinking of all 3 swords and 1 jitte, you have a really nice toolbox variety. I think its a nice addition, and i would play it.

Vindicate is a 100% must play imo. Whether you play 3 or 4 kinda depends on your meta i guess. Vindicate IS slow, cause of its 2colored 3casting cost. Still i would never consider going below 3 because it is an answer to almost everything that hits the board.

Wasteland.....hm....sure it destabilizes your manabase, but it can screw your opponent. I would allways see the fourth Wasteland as a spell, while the 3 others i count to my landcount (e.g: you play 21 Lands, 4 of which are wasteland, so i would call it 20 Lands - just a mindgame ;) )
Especially with Vindicate i would not cut all wastelands.
When we look at the Decks to Beat (in general, nothing too meta-like) we can assume that a wasteland is very nice except versus Merfolk (and Vial-Goblins). I would much rather add a fetchie or two to stabilize the manabase before i´d cut wasteland below 3.

[Justin]

My full list is posted on the previous page. I do play a set of Wasteland, in addition to Sinkhole, and Vindicate. Mana denial is one of the major reasons to play this deck.

I like Sword of Body and Mind as a one-of that Stoneforge Mystic can fetch. A 2/2 guy is fine, especially in a deck that runs a lot of equipment. The mill effect might even win you games when you are playing against Dredge and Loam decks because it can remove their entire library.

[sporenfrosch1411]

let me point out something else that can be regarded obvious but needs to get spoken out:
Sword of Body and Mind produces guys that it can be attached to. That in fact IS great in my opinion ;)

I´d NOT consider it good versus dredge though. They will win instantly once u milled 10 cards ;)
Loam is the same thing, it will EXPLODE after having u mill 10-20 cards. 100% board em out versus those 2 decks :)


@Sinkhole
I really dont know about sinkhole. Sure its THE best Land Destruction, together with vindicate and wasteland it CAN be devastating. But after round 3 or 4 it often turns out to be a horrible draw :/
Its the kind of card you want to play turn 1 and 2 (just like ritual often is) and kinda NOT want to topdeck further on...

[caiomarcos]

When we look at the Decks to Beat (in general, nothing too meta-like) we can assume that a wasteland is very nice except versus Merfolk (and Vial-Goblins). I would much rather add a fetchie or two to stabilize the manabase before i´d cut wasteland below 3.

Wasteland is the best thing against Mutavault since Strip Mine. Jokes aside, I do think that Wasteland is very nice against merfolk, a little narrow but a very good answer for a difficult to deal and very annoying threat.

[sporenfrosch1411]

Lol yeah, ofc mutavaults :)
Kinda forgot about them, getting stomped so often by Coralhelm Commander, Lord of Atlantis and Cursecatcher (was it cursecatcher, not sure about name atm :D )

You are right, it is also good versus merfolk.

Which underlines my point even more i guess...

Dont cut wastelands :D

[EssKay]

Basically all LD is dead late in the game unless you're dedicating so much of the deck to it that you can keep them from stabilizing for multiple turns.

So, if you want to run Sinkhole and Wasteland, you should gear your deck more towards an explosive start and speed, and hope to win before you get drawn into a situation where half your deck is dead.

[keys]

I've been reading this thread and I like the card choices, especially SFM here. I tried cutting down what I thought were the frivolous cards to the get the core:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk
3-4 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Sword to Plowshares
4 Inquisition of Kozilek/Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Taurach
3 Vindicate

3-4 Bitterblossom
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Scrubland
6 Swamp
1 Plains

This looks pretty solid to me. I don't see a need for Abyssal Gatekeeper or Dark Depths... flyers and equipment should be sufficient to deal lethal. I really like the 11 maindeck removal (not including equipment) which should make for a strong aggro matchup. The deck probably has trouble against CounterTop with no 1 drops and a low curve, although Vindicate helps.

[Mono_Thematic]

@Keys:
The flavor side of me love the list, but the practical side of me thinks that its going to suffer greatly against Zoo, Burn/Sligh, and any Combo deck in G1.
-Zoo has more than enough removal to handle all of your weenie threats (including BB), and so long as they can land one decent beater through your removal you'll be done with
-Other Burn heavy decks can't handle your BB so you have an advantage there (especially with equipment) but 8 fetch, Dark Confidant, BB, and especially thoughtseize all put yourself into burn range very quickly.
-Deadguy has no answer to T1 Trinisphere, CotV @1, or the nutz draw from ANT/DDFT/ect. But your list is especially vulernable as you only run 4 T1 discard spells, which means they can (potentially) go off on T1 or T2 against you. Seeing as how Show-Tell-Eldrazi is getting more popular I think you'd need to respect these MU's and increase the discard package (and cross your fingers if your on the draw).

Personnally I'd make the following changes:
- 4 Vampire Nighthawk -> + 3-4 Abyssal Persecutor (I've run 4 APs before using StoP, Gatekeeper, Vindicate package for removal and it worked fine. Just remember to never play more than one at a time [you usually never need more than one anyways]).
- 1 SFM/-1 BB/-1 Jitte -> + 2-3 Duress/TS/IoK. Consistantly having first turn action will help out tons against... everything except Dredge.

Just my thoughts is all.
-Mono

[sporenfrosch1411]

Why would you cut Vampire Nighthawk ?!
They are pure evilness and win games (especially with jitte) oO

[yougo]

i agree you dont want to cut vampire nighthawk i would recomand you to try it first, me too at first i was sceptical but nighthawk equip make you win the game is that easy:cool: so much deck cant awser him with solas and just give you the game its way too brockenb to be remove

ho and im happy to officialy declare wasteland as a stapler to the deck:laugh:

i think my next step is to try a 4th vindicate main and some precise card againts control and aggro in sideboard instead of md

ex: elspeth... wich i think is very good but you cant run it while your running wasteland i would say againts control (lanstill, supreme blue) it seems like the bomb

i think keys list start to look exactly like the deck should look like maybe some little tweak here and there but i think thats about it

but i would say this: me as soon as sobm is release im switching a jitte for one of these

and one change i was thinking about, i was considering of cutting 1 nighthawk for i vindicate from keys wich i think start to look like a real primer to me

[Humphrey]

Im currently working on a more controlish version of picula, like i used to play years ago with exalted angel.

my current list is this:

// Lands
5 [4E] Swamp (2)
1 [MM] Plains (3)
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [GP] Godless Shrine
4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
4 [A] Scrubland
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire

// Creatures
3 [M11] Baneslayer Angel
4 [ZEN] Vampire Nighthawk
4 [ZEN] Gatekeeper of Malakir
2 [SOK] Hand of Cruelty

// Spells
4 [JGC] Vindicate
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [DDE] Phyrexian Arena
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
3 [IA] Dark Ritual
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (2)
2 [AP] Gerrard's Verdict

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [US] Duress
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [WL] Null Rod
SB: 3 [OD] Innocent Blood

I couldt test to much, but i beat Countertop, TES and Merfolk (after SB) with decent results. Baneslayer Angel is very nice :)
But i have some troubles with Wasteland against me, since I need BB or BBB on Turn3 along with W for STP

[4eak]

After dozens of evolutions, I've actually found a build I like. It works well for me, and perhaps you might like it as well. List first, explanation after:

// Mana Sources -- 24
4 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
2 Flooded Strand
5 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual

// Draw Engine -- 12
4 Dark Confidant
4 Dark Tutelage
4 Sensei's Divining Top

// Battlefieldsex-- 14
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

// Disruption -- 12
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
4 Hymn to Tourach

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Engineered Plague
SB: 4 Pithing Needle
SB: 4 Duress
SB: 4 Faerie Macabre

As many notice while playing these sorts of decks, games with a Bob (which sticks around) differ greatly from those without Bob. One-sided howling mines win games in attrition formats like Legacy. I like to see the effect with consistency, so I went for the full 8. Tutelage's easy mana-coloring requirements are extremely nice in a 2-color, low-land count deck.

The deck revolves around generating card advantage; you should snow-ball into it. The win-conditions themselves offer good board control and life-gain for the draw engine. They are perhaps weak in that they aren't very large creatures, but that is acceptable given the card advantage.

It probably seems weird not to have a 1cc discard effect (and some would be tempted to replace Hymn with it). Hymn is card advantage, supports the LD-gameplan sometimes, and it hits everything, which is wonderful. Duress can be sided in when necessary.

Generally, I've foregone the combo match (as is usual). I think this archetype is generally weak against well-played combo though, and even 12 1cc discard spells just isn't enough.

Some may consider E-tutor with less Tutelage and more Bitterblossom/Oblivion Ring/SB options, but against decks playing blue, I've generally preferred just dropping bombs without E-tutors card disadvantage.




peace,
4eak

[Corax]

Heres my current list and i am wondering what other 4 creatures to use:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 (undecided)

4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate
4 Thoughtseize
4 Dark Ritual
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
5 Swamp
1 Karakas

For the undecided creature slot, at the moment i had Nantuko Shades in there, but im still playing around with other stuff, such as Stoneforge Mystics and maybe Jotun Grunts, also i am wondering if i should just go ahead and splash green for Tarmogoyfs because it seems like there is no reason not to other than not being able to dark ritual them in, but i'm used to that having played Eva Green. I don't think splashing green for Tarmogoyf and perhaps Pernicious Deed makes this into a different deck because it is still very disruption centric and you would just be using Tarmogoyf as a win condition.

I also thought about just putting 4 Sinkholes in that slot to make it 4 Wastelands, 4 Sinkholes, 4 Vindicates, but can this deck be fast enough to be that kind of a tempo based deck? i think i might have to take out Gatekeepers and put something more aggressive in.

[colo]

You want -1 Jitte, +1 Sword of Fire and Ice, +1 Sword of Light and Shadow, +3 Stoneforge Mystic in there.

@4eak: why Dark Tutelage instead of Phyrexian Arena? I didn't do any calculations, but i'd be surprised if the average CMC of the cards in your list were below 1. The majority of permanents you play are CMC 2, so that change would also make an opponent's Engineered Explosive potentially less hurtful.

[jrsthethird]

Tutelage combines with Top to allow free cards.

[Corax]

if you only use dark tutelage or dark confidant to get extra lands and take no damage then you aren't playing the deck to it's fullest all of the time. you should want to lose life to play more threats at least some of the time. I think having 8 cards in your deck for card advantage might be a bit much, i haven't play tested with your list but sometimes i barely have enough threats as it is.

[4eak]

@ colo


@4eak: why Dark Tutelage instead of Phyrexian Arena? I didn't do any calculations, but i'd be surprised if the average CMC of the cards in your list were below 1. The majority of permanents you play are CMC 2, so that change would also make an opponent's Engineered Explosive potentially less hurtful.

I'm not completely against Arena. I've tried them both enchantments. I have an active top in most games, and I take slightly less lifeloss from Dark Tutelage on average in my opinion. Avg CMC= 1.35. Arena's predictable lifecost can be very nice. Dark Rutelage has lower mana-color requirements, which comes up often enough in the first couple turns (which is when I want to drop the card most often). Feel free to change it up.


@ Corax


if you only use dark tutelage or dark confidant to get extra lands and take no damage then you aren't playing the deck to it's fullest all of the time. you should want to lose life to play more threats at least some of the time. I think having 8 cards in your deck for card advantage might be a bit much, i haven't play tested with your list but sometimes i barely have enough threats as it is.

As I said in my previous post, games with an active Bob and those without are markedly different. Drawing extra land (alongside spells) is perfectly acceptable when it snow-balls into more card advantage and the ability to play what you are drawing. You rarely draw "dead" mana sources (note that I play 20 land, 4 Rit). The appearance of a low-threat count is deceiving if you don't consider the sheer consistency with which the deck can draw 2 (or even 3) cards a turn. There are 14-creatures in total, which is quite acceptable for heavy control/CA variants of the deck.

Try the deck out, you may find it plays differently than you anticipated.



peace,
4eak

[Corax]

4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate
4 Thoughtseize
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
3 Bayou
4 Wasteland
3 Swamp
1 Karakas

This is the current version of my deck and i have been liking the green splash, you use Tarmogoyfs and ditch Dark Rituals for Pernicious deed giving you a better late game which is what this deck is designed for in the first place. Try it out.

[Shiku]

Hi All,

First post here ! New to legacy and going with this deck !

Two newb questions:

- where does the name Deadguy Ale comes from ??
- what do ppl think of Grim Discovery with wastelands and gatekeeper ???

Thx !

[Justin]

Rogue Deadguy Ale is the name of a pretty tasty craft beer from Oregon. Chris Pikula played a BW disruption deck at one of the very first Legacy Grand Prix a number of years back(finishing second) and named the deck: Deadguy Ale: A Homebrew. Since it was a "rogue" deck at that time, "Deadguy Ale" was meant to indicate that. I'm not sure if Pikula was the first Magic player to call a rogue deck "Deadguy Ale", but the name stuck on his Legacy version.

I'm not a huge fan of Grim Discovery, as it can be a dead card a lot of the time. I think there are better cards to fit in the deck. I do love Gatekeeper in this deck and think he is a must play.

[Shiku]

Thank you !!!!!

So another question: What to buy first ??

Wastlands, bobs or Jitte ???

My manabase uses godless shrines and verdant catacombs as well as tainted fields, so I think I can hold before buying duals.

Any thoughts ??

[Mystical_Jackass]

So I've put my Deadguy Ale deck together after a few months. Generally I've run Sensei's in the past and went for a more slower & consistent route to win the attrition wars, but now I'm actually thinking of pushing for an even more aggressive and explosive start with Rituals and mana denial like the classic MBC.

The new Scars creature Leonin Arbiter came to mind, it just seems perfect in this kind of deck. To be able to set them back with wasteland then drop the cat.. if my opponent ends up drawing fetches you could easily mana screw them before they can recover. I'm thinking with all the top builds running Survival, fetchlands, Knight and the works would really be thrown back. The deck idea would be to get the early jump on them and finish them before they're able to fully recover, anyways I was thinking something like this to start...


Land (21)
4 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
4 Caves of Koilos
5 Swamp
1 Plains

Creatures (17)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Tombstalker

Removal/Draw (22)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
2 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshare

I wanted to get some feedback, what do you guys think about more of an aggro-mana denial approach?

[badjuju]

@4eak

Interesting list. I'm intrigued by the archetype, mostly because I don't see it around much anymore. Can you tell us how your matchups have been going, namely against anything that isn't combo?

[Deviruchi]

Thank you !!!!!
So another question: What to buy first ??

Wastlands, bobs or Jitte ???


Jitte is not obligatory in this deck. I didn't use it, I was happy with that and results showed me it was a good choice. Buy Wastelands and Bobs for sure.




I wanted to get some feedback, what do you guys think about more of an aggro-mana denial approach?

I don't like this angle but maybe your metagame is better for this version. Mana denial version with only 2 Vindicates? I mean, any version with only 2?

[AggroSteve]

i like this new route, but i have to say the same thing about vindicate, it should be 4

[Justin]

Thank you !!!!!

So another question: What to buy first ??

Wastlands, bobs or Jitte ???

My manabase uses godless shrines and verdant catacombs as well as tainted fields, so I think I can hold before buying duals.

Any thoughts ??

Yeah, Jitte is not a must buy for this deck. My version runs Stoneforge Mystic so I run a single Jitte, along with singles of the Darksteel swords.

I would definately buy or trade for a set of Wasteland first. This is pretty much a staple if you want to play Legacy. There are some relatively cheap decks that you can run Wasteland for such as mono-red goblins and mono-blue Merfolk. Bob, however, is a must-run 4 for this deck and you should get a set of him as well.

[bleuisforwhimps]

@Mystical_Jackass :I know you're going for the mana denial plan but after playing a similar deck i've found sinkhole not all that good, its good if its in your opening hand but after that its just crap, cut them for 2 more vindicates and perhaps 2 gatekeeper of malakir, these guys are really good.
If you topdeck a sinkhole its 80% of the times useless, if you topdeck a vindicate there's always something useful you can destroy. As for gatekeeper of malakir imagine this;oponnent is going show and tell second turn with force backup, he shows Emrakul, you Tombstalker and pass. You go duress, dark ritual, gatekeeper with kicker, it happened to me and its enough reason to play 4 for me.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Hey Blue,

The question I have then is, did you run Dark Ritual in your list when you tried using a Waste/Sinkhole gameplan?

[GUdrus]

Hello. I am prepparing for a big Legacy tournament in my city and was wondering, what would you suggest as a 60th card for my deck. Here are the remaining 59 and SB:

22 lands
2 Scrubland
2 Godless Shrine
2 Caves of Koilos
4 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
9 Swamp
1 Plains

4 Dark Confidant
1 Jotun Grunt
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Abyssal Persecutor

3 Dark Ritual
1 Cabal Therapy
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

SB:
1 Jotun Grunt
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Basilisk Colar
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Dystopia
3 Engineered Plague
3 Extirpate
3 Thorn of Amethyst

I am currently running Path to Exile as my 60th card, but I don't like how it advances my opponents game plan if cast early. Don't like 4th Vindicate ether, because it is a bit to slow. And 2nd Jotun Grunt seemed not good in a lot of maches, because you really don't want to see both in a single game and offen enought don't want to see 1 ether.

What do you think about a Mother of Runes as a singleton? It would be a good blocker, carry equipment and provides cover for my Dark Confidant or Vampire Nighthawk.

[dirtyapes]

@ GUdrus I think you would benefit from moving the Grunt to the SB and moving the other Therapy to the MD. You need ways to get rid of your Persecutor and therapy seems the best way to do it. I would also consider removing the Dark Rituals from the MD. Having 3 seems like it doesn't help enough when you need it to. They are a dead draw late game and if they aren't in your opening hand, they lose a lot of their power. I would try maybe 3 Tops in their place. They help fix your draws and reduce the amount Confidant does to you.

[Magicsk8ngenius]

Is it just more or do you guys really seem to not like Tainted Field? In this type of deck - mainly one running the Arbiter, I find this to be one of the more optimal alternate B/W land drops. I like it more than cave of koilos and it seems to be best maybe running 3 with 1-2 godless shrines as your other duals.

[dirtyapes]

Is it just more or do you guys really seem to not like Tainted Field? In this type of deck - mainly one running the Arbiter, I find this to be one of the more optimal alternate B/W land drops. I like it more than cave of koilos and it seems to be best maybe running 3 with 1-2 godless shrines as your other duals.

Tainted Field would be better for a build with Arbiters than the Caves. I would still keep the count as low as possible though because they are awful to have in a starting hand if the only other land is a Wasteland.

[Eldariel]

Is it just me or is Cursed Scroll good again? It's a house against Merfolk, does decently against Goblins and allows your random bears to tangle with almost anything, while also pinging at things like Wild Mongrel, Rootwalla and company from Vengevine Survival after the Survival-aspect is dealt with and breaking the face of stupid control decks with difficulty removing artifacts.

Also, now if ever seems like a fine time to play Bojuka Bogs given just how much graveyard reliance decks have and how much of that Vengevine crap you can RFG with just one good Hymn + Bog. They aren't all that bad against Knight of the Reliquary, Tarmogoyf and company either.


Initial, off-the-top list broadly implementing said concepts:
// Lands
2 [9E] Swamp (2)
3 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
1 [SOK] Tomb of Urami
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [A] Scrubland
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs

// Creatures
2 [FUT] Tombstalker
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [ALA] Tidehollow Sculler
4 [ZEN] Gatekeeper of Malakir

// Spells
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
2 [JU] Cabal Therapy
1 [PLC] Extirpate
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [AP] Vindicate
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (1)
3 [TE] Cursed Scroll

[bleuisforwhimps]

I like your list a lot, in the current metagame I think we will see a rise in these kind of decks because of the positive match-up against merfolk and madness. Have you tested it? Because at first glanse it could maybe use a few more solid beaters. Maybe dark ritual instead of chrome mox so grave titan would be an option, the guy is just nuts.

[DrNojman]

Eldariel, how is your testing of the list going? I've always been tempted to run 2 Tombstalkers with Bobs (and without SDT), so I'm curious about your results. Also, I've got some suggestions for your list. I don't think Chrome Mox is a good option for this deck, good old Dark Ritual would be better, especially with Tombstalker. Also, I think that with 4 Bojuka Bog you lose too much tempo, Jotun Grunt can take care of Goyfs and Knights. And how is Cursed Scroll performing? For me the best answer to merfolk is just getting a Sword of Fire and Ice and slice through'em :cool:

[Eldariel]

Eldariel, how is your testing of the list going? I've always been tempted to run 2 Tombstalkers with Bobs (and without SDT), so I'm curious about your results. Also, I've got some suggestions for your list. I don't think Chrome Mox is a good option for this deck, good old Dark Ritual would be better, especially with Tombstalker. Also, I think that with 4 Bojuka Bog you lose too much tempo, Jotun Grunt can take care of Goyfs and Knights. And how is Cursed Scroll performing? For me the best answer to merfolk is just getting a Sword of Fire and Ice and slice through'em :cool:

So far Cursed Scroll has performed about on par with expectations. It's been surprisingly good against GW Survival; it feasts on Hierarchs, Mommies, Qasalis (if there's no mana open), Goyfs/Knights after Bog, and Fauna Shaman. It isn't perfect but it definitely makes Gatekeeper hit harder. Against Merfolk they just really don't want it to resolve. First it kills all their guys and then it kills them. Between your removal and discard, you can generally get rid of enough lords to make it efficient, though Aether Vial complicates matters as always. The one awesome thing about it is that it gives you reach too; goes over the top to the face if e.g. Survival finds its namesake and starts to stabilize after you've been beating them down, or if Goblins generate a roadblock.

And sometimes when all threats trade and only Scroll remains, it's a perfectly reasonable way to finish the game especially after cleaning the board up. Most decks have a hard time removing artifacts and bringing arti removal in for 3 scrolls alone makes you feel stupid when they don't show up (sure, you can destroy Moxes but whatever; by the time they are destroyed you've generally drawn the extra land anyways).


I'm actually pretty happy with Chrome Mox. I definitely like it a lot more than Ritual. First, I want to accelerate to 2 mana, not 3. You might notice how e.g. Hippie is conspiously absent. I don't really have anything at 3cc I care about that early. What I want is 2 mana ASAP especially in Seizeless/Therapyless hands. Second, I really don't want to devote deckspace to accelerants that don't stick around. I tried Mox Diamond but most of the time I was barely using it for anything but an unwasteable source of white (Plains may be right but BBs and 5 sources that don't produce black feels bad especially since you always want to cast Hymns ASAP *shrug*).

Though I do feel that the deck needs more beef. Grave Titan seems too expensive no matter how I look at it; the deck just doesn't get to 6 mana in normal games, Ritual or no. Abyssal Persecutor seemed slightly more interesting especially with all the removal in the deck being 100% capable of killing him aside from Cursed Scroll. And I was considering the Stoneforge Package. But I'm not at all sure what you'd want to give up for it. It takes a lot of deckspace with at least 2 pieces of equipment and 3 Stoneforges. That would make the 2/2s much more of a threat and give you more expendable bodies for Therapy, that's for certain.

But yeah, basically everything in the deck is a 2-for-1. Like, obviously Stalker, Vindicate, StP, Seize, Therapy and Extirpate (usually) aren't. But Hymn is a 2-for-1, Sculler can be a 2-for-1 (if not removed; Merfolk and Vengevine Survival notably tend to have trouble efficiently removing creatures), Dark Confidant just draws infinite cards, Gatekeeper is a 2-for-1 & Cursed Scroll generates incremental advantage. And actually, Bojuka Bog can often hurt people real bad.


I agree it can be a bit problematic but it's really the optimal 3rd land to play. The amount of damage it does after Hymn or Seize+Therapy or even just after removal against anything green (basically anything green is graveyard based unless it's Elves; Tarmogoyfs, Knights of the Reliquary, Terravores, Vengevines, you name it) is just huge. That mono-black control list that Top 8d ran 4 Bogs which caused me to test it a bit more; I think there's something to that. Sure, it's sometimes inconvenient especially since it's Wasteable but many times I've simply won games due to correctly timed or topdecked Bog. Heck, between Bog and Tombstalker it's not rare to see Goyfs revert to 0/1s. Bog is basically a free, uncounterable spell that taps for B after you've played it. That's good in my books.

[therorschach]

"I am currently running Path to Exile as my 60th card, but I don't like how it advances my opponents game plan if cast early. Don't like 4th Vindicate ether, because it is a bit to slow. And 2nd Jotun Grunt seemed not good in a lot of maches, because you really don't want to see both in a single game and offen enought don't want to see 1 ether.'

Since path is not doing it for you, I think the best answer is Gerrard's Verdict as a fifth Hymn to Tourach.

[ForlornEgoist]

I've had MBA for quite some time now (the build which ran x4 Dark rit, x4 Tombstalker, x4 Snuff Out, x4 Shade) and frankly I've felt it's time to move on. The problem I often ran into was that I was so control-oriented that when it got into late-game I would either lose to planeswalkers or lose to my opponents cantrips. Naturally I attempted to solve this problem by adding Bob. Afterwards, however, the deck wasn't at all how I liked it. I had to remove the Snuffs, lower Stalker down to 2-3, and add SDT to even make it viable. I wasn't pleased with the result.

I then moved onto Pox which, while fun, ultimately was lacking. You had to keep constant checks on the game state to make sure Pox was being used fully, and you had to minimalize the creature-count to maximize your pox effects. The pox effects, while amazing, denied you amazingly useful cards like Bob, Thoughtseize, and so on.

I also took a look at The Gate which solved the issues of running Bob with an Evasive flyer, but I still found myself desiring targeted removal and a way to deal with Planeswalkers.

So, I've currently moved onto Deadguy Ale to see if it has what I'm looking for.

The build I've put together thusly is as follows:


4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
3 Swamp
1 Plains

4 Mother of Runes
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk

4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshare
4 Deathmark
4 Vindicate

2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Umezawa's Jitte

3 Dystopia
4 Powder Keg
4 Engineered Plague
4 Leyline of the Void

Lands
8 fetches gurantees that A) I hit a Scrubland, and B) that I make full use of Bob/Top.

I'm considering running 1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth as I run 12 non-mana producing sources. My meta has next to none Stifle's, and I'm the only Dragon Stompy player, so the fetches are for all intensive purposes guranteed to suceed. It may be smart, however, to have a back-up plan should I need to be more frugal with my life.

Creatures
There is a lot of aggro/Bant in my area, and Mother of Runes assures me that I can either negate and attacking creature, or shield a creature from a potential StP or PtE.

I'm currently running no Tombstalker for the sole reason I couldn't fit him into the deck. That having been said, I think it is important to have a solid, evasive beater that can be a game finisher if need be. What I may end up doing is dropping the 4 Deathmark and adding 2 Tombstalker and 2 Sensei's Divining Top.

I also played arround with Serra Avenger, but inevitably decided that the :w: :w: was hard enough to cast, and that if I was going to be running her I may as well assemble Death & Taxes and then just splash :b: for Vindicate. :tongue:

Spells
I'm not sure how I feel about the Deathmark. It's a solid :1: killing spell that hits majority of what I would need it to, however my meta is starting to see more and more Merfolks, as well as a Dreadstill deck. In which case Smother may be a more viable option. As stated above, I am also considering dropping them entirely for 2/2 Stalker/SDT.

Artifacts
This deck isn't The Gate. My SB runs alot more 3cc than The Gate does, so deck manipulation is necessary. SDT provides me this, works great with the 8 fetches, and it provides me some mid-late game assistance when I enter topdeck mode.

The purpose of Jitte in this deck, similar to The Gate, is to offset the lifeloss guranteed by 8 fetches/4 Bobs/ 4 Seize. My build runs more lifeloss that other versions, but our deck can remove majority of the threats needed. A Stoneforge toolbox, while cute, is unnecessary and forces us to pay above our mana curve for abilities that do little to assist the game state. Jitte is cheap and all 3 of it's abilities are viable in any MU rather than being conditional like the 3 Swords are.

Sideboard

Dystopia- this is for the Enchantress MU. Myself included, there are 3 Enchantresss players in our meta. Anytime I play a different deck I loan my deck out, so I can almost always count on there being 1-2 Enchantresses. True, I run 7 creatures that have the possibility of being fodder to this card, but it is also the best way for black to screw over Enchantress early-game.

Powder Keg- Useful for Tribal/Zoo who have a lot of 1-2cc, and in the Enchantress MU it hits Argothians/Angel tokens.

Engineered Plague- Useful for Tribal/Enchantress MU (if you don't know, you name DRUID).

Leyline of the Void- I'm actually considering taking these out for Extirpate. When my meta was infested with Dredge they really sparkled, but with the absence of Dredge the only time I've ever needed to side them in is the Enchantress MU/Bant when they get and EE-lock. Extirpate will provide a targeted effect that can neuter my opponent of a key card, and the 1cc stays right in line with Bob.


So that's the current list I'm running. I have yet to playtest it since I'd like to finalize a list before assembly, but gimme you're thoughts and opinions.

Forlorn Egoist

[colo]

You should really diversify your equipment package, since especially Sword of Fire and Ice can be quite a lot better than Jitte when battling the appropriate deck. Especially if you strap it onto a Nighthawk (which is a very solid creature to run these days).

From my experience with the archetype (and a rather similar deck at that), you will find Gatekeeper of Malakir sitting around in your hand for too long, waiting for yout to be able to shell out BBB in a single turn.

Deathmark is debatable, as the Gate thread has already shown quite well. If your meta packs Goblins or Merfolk, you should opt for something else. I really like Doom Blade these days; how many relevant black critters are there these days that you don't run yourself and your Swords can't handle?

For reference, that was the list I played up until about 3 months ago:

1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Æther Vial

2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Jotun Grunt
2 Spectral Lynx
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Stillmoon Cavalier
4 Mother of Runes
4 Dark Confidant

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
4 Vindicate

4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
3 Wasteland
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Flooded Strand
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Burrenton Forge-Tender and Spectral Lynx are questionable choices for most, but the first answers Progenitus (at least for a turn, indefinitely if you have a Sowrd of Light and Shadow on someone of your team), Dredge and Goblins quite nicely, and the latter was a meta choice (Bant Survival and especially Firespout everywhere) back then. I'd probably run Bitterblossom over it now.

[Erdvermampfa]

Hi, id like to introduce you to my current bgw list.
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [A] Scrubland
3 [US] Swamp (2)
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
4 [A] Bayou
3 [OD] Plains (4)

// Creatures
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [ALA] Tidehollow Sculler
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ZEN] Vampire Nighthawk

// Spells
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [AP] Vindicate
4 [DS] AEther Vial
1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [AP] Vindicate
SB: 2 [FNM] Duress
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 4 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate

1st, id like to point out that my meta contains tons of blue controldecks, so i decided to add 4 Aether vial which ought to do a great job against those decks. Vial also accelerates the deck in a proper way, so in a way, its solves the problem about the slow start. Tidehollow Sculler got the simple advantage to Hymn that its a creature and can be equiped with on of these Swords. Still, im not satified with the number of Vindicates. 21 lands were not enough since I run no Sensei's Divining Top or other cards which can dig for lands, so i had to remove 1 Vindicate for the 22th land. Im even thinking about the 61th card, but i doubt that this is the way to go. Perhaps u can suggest the cut for the 4th Vindicate.
Thx in advance for ya answers.

[miko]

I've played this list three times. Two times 1st one time 4-2. It is a straight forward attempt on getting control over the board and drop a Confidant/Stalker and go for it.

Mainboard: (60)

3 Polluted Delta
1 Plains
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
5 Swamp
4 Marsh Flats

1 Faerie Macabre
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Tombstalker

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Diabolic Edict
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Sinkhole

Sideboard: (15)

1 Faerie Macabre
3 Perish
4 Engineered Plague
3 Duress
4 Leyline of the Void

This list is especially good against all kinds of threshold. And beats Control frequently. It can also win against VV-Survival. First of all: I chose not to play Jitte/Mystic because I don't want to draw it against any kind of control. Against Aggro I've got enough removal.
Inquisition is better in this list because of mana-denial (Sinkhole, Waste, Hymn, etc.) and Confidant. I lost a lot of games against any aggro-list just because of Thoughtseize and Confidant.
Four Senseis is the right number, because it is the decks key card. We have 9 Fetchlands that can shuffle away the second or third Top.
Faerie Macabre is in the flexible slot, because I have one SB slot and one maindeck to make it less random.
Any thoughts or ideas?
Comments?

[Oiolosse]

You use Inquisition which hits only one Planeswalker so four Vindicate is the right number here. Your mana denial plan is strong which lessens other forms of removal. Creature removal. I think Damnation is in order. This feels like a heavy board control variant, mass removal is needed MD.

[miko]

What matchup do you need damnation for? You certainly beat Tribal after sideboarding. I already have 10 removal spells main deck...
Inquisition is the way to go. I don't need to take away Plainswalkers just because opponents rarely have more than 3 lands in play.

[Gvaelbur]

I use the next deck for some tournaments in our city:

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [UNH] Plains
4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
2 [R] Scrubland
1 [EVE] Fetid Heath
4 [OD] Swamp (2)
2 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
1 [U] Scrubland

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [FUT] Tombstalker
4 [UL] Mother of Runes
4 [ZEN] Vampire Nighthawk

// Spells
2 [AP] Gerrard's Verdict
1 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [SH] Mox Diamond
2 [AP] Vindicate
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (1)
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [6E] Perish
SB: 2 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 [SOM] Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
SB: 2 [M10] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [FUT] Aven Mindcensor


what do you think about it?

[Leto]

you have only 6 Removal (4 Swords 2 Vindicate), for me not enough to feel comfortable, but I don't know what your opponents play, so maybe this is enough :wink:

maybe you could describe your local meta a bit, cause i don't know where you are from, and for instance german and american legacy differs a lot.

[Oiolosse]

@Gvaelbur: Mother of Runes looks a bit out of place here. She's there to protect Confidant, Tombstalker? Your 10 discard MD should do that just fine. I'd look into more pinpoint removal (meta depending of course). I'd raise the Vindicate count to at least three. Also, one Elspeth, really? I'm not a fan of one-ofs outside of combo. Sure, you have BoB and 8 fetches+top but I feel 2 is the right number. Mox Diamond is interesting. I am a huge fan of that card but have never tested it in Deadguy. Is first turn Hymn the only reason? Very different from my build but looks better against combo.

[JadeOberg]

I have been playing Deadguy since September. The deck has put up amazing stats for me. Lots of x-1's with top fours. The deck can compete with anything it faces. The list I've been running as follows. This deck is packing some serious card advantage. 2 for ones with hymn. Tidehollow takes one as I play one. Mom locks down the battlefield. BOB draws forever. SFM refills your hand. and the swords draw you cards or pull out of the yard.

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Mother of Runes
3 Tidehollow Sculler

1 Jitte
1 SoFI
1 SoLS

4 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize

4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
2 Urborg Tomb of...
4 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Swamp
1 Plain

Sideboard per meta Usually been running 4 extirpate and 2 Fae Mcabre, 4 pithing needle, 3 Duress, 2 Perish

Just some thoughts on Matchups. I have not lost to storm combo yet. Tidehollow helps shore up that matchup. Survival has been 50/50 independent of build. Enough graveyard hate in its best form really helps...Needles as well. SFM is the nuts...she is the best top deck in any situation. I use to run gatekeepers instead of bobs...mistake...bob is nuts...plus triple black is difficult to get. The deck in this form is very dependent upon drawing equipment, but that has rarely been a problem for me with bob and 7 ways to get equipment. Has anyone else tried something similar to this build? A note about Nighthawk...he keeps you in games you have no business being in....Today a second turn iona was resolved against me...I dropped a nighthawk and was able to fend off iona for over 7 or so turns... He just beats some decks by himself...also with an active mom it makes for some awkward combat situations for the opponent.

[Oiolosse]

4 confidants is a must but do you really need all four Mystics? With just three targets I would think it would be dead from time to time. I go back and forth on Sculler. I love the flavor, the cost, the whole package. I just hate when I remove a key card and he gets zapped eot. You have Mom to protect it but she really needs to be protecting Bob and Nighthawk.

Also, have you seen that new white knight spoiled? Looks pretty sick here. WW is tough since you run Hymn but pro green and doublestrike is exceptional, eps since you run all four Mystics.

[JadeOberg]

I have never questioned the 4th mystic. One will usually get countered. Plus the deck is low on p/t quality creatures so it is dependent on the equipment and SFM #4 maximizes drawing them for me. The deck basically runs just enough disruption to buy you the time to get equipment out and start creating insane card advantage.

[Gvaelbur]

To Leto, Oiolosse: my meta is very different, but the most frequantly are agro decks

Ideas:

4 stp +2 vindi: I use vindicates not for removal, but for killing Jace and other walkers, and for destroing arts,enchantments and so on, 10 discard spell anough to stop agro plan

3 mox diamonds: its not only faster start, but also they give us posibility to use more lands that dont give colour mana such as mishra factory,wasteland, fetid heath

mother of runes is a perfect creature, it protects our confidants and other warriors from removals, and perfectly blocks enemy boys

single elspeth is a deck keeper and sudden win condition for many games

[Oiolosse]

I understand using Vindicates for Planeswalkers, artifacts, enchantments and trouble lands but then that leaves you with just 4 Swords for spot removal. If your meta is aggro heavy then I don't see how just 4 stp will hold it back. Discard does do a good job against all sorts of spells, creatures included, but it is a proactive solution against proactive opponents, which doesn't fare too well in my experience. Gerrard's Verdict doesn't do much good games 2 and 3 when all the opponent saw in way of removal game 1 was stp.

I would give EE a shot in place of Verdicts. You will blow out your Mother of Runes and your Confidants from time to time but you'll at least have MD answers to EtW and Tribal decks.

Elpseth has proved to be amazing in my build. But then again I have an unconventional list that better utilizes her.

[Leto]

Vindicate is one of the "Swiss Knifes" (hope you know what i mean, cause dont know if its the fitting Term in english^^) off the Deck, that grants you to get no real bad matchups. But as Oiolosse sad, if your meta is heavy aggro you need more removal, one good Topdeck of your opponent and no discard can rescue you (since all is Sorcery-Speed) and an Tarmo comes around.

On Elspeth i aggre with you, she is god in most matchups, stalls against Zoo infinite or pumps your equipped guys to a 3-rund clock (which is badass). Ulti is cool too :wink:

EEs got a place in my deck just yesterday after testing and realizing I need some sort of Sweeper. Worked pretty well in the last 5 or six games. Maybe provokes a grip to save your Sticks played on next turn^^

// Lands
2 Plains
4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
6 Swamp
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Flooded Strand

// Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Vampire Nighthawk

// Spells
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Diabolic Edict
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Engineered Explosives

// Sideboard
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Jotun Grunt
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Relic of Progenitus


this is the list I run at the moment, set up mainly to rip apart Zoo and other aggro-decks (goblin-mu is not bad either when you catch the lackey on the play with inquisition or on the draw with sword)

the number of Cards is maybe a bit uncommon but worked out pretty well for me and is constantly evolving

sideboard is pretty much against everything beside aggro, hymns against control, Canonist to fist combo and Jotun+Relic against Dredge, Thresh, Loam...

[Gvaelbur]

Hmm....I thought that Thoughtseize and Wasteland are very useful in these kinds of decks, why dont you use it?

[Leto]

I play Inquisition above TS at the moment cause I play mainly against all kinds off aggro and the Inquisition picks (nearly) all relevant Critters without the "pay 2 Life" which CAN break your back in some games. This is one of the main reasons for Else > Bitterblossom too, with this deck i can stabilize on really low life and beat my opponent with nearly all options my deck has, only Confi is risky (but makable with Top online)

But I know from some other Discussion that not few Players see it TS > Inqui cause you can pick really everything and I respect that, but I havent yet the moment where I thougt "goddamn, give me that TS" maybe when that moment pops up, I change the slots or play split^^


Wastelands are not included to hold the manabase as stable es possible. I have heavy coloured Manacosts with triple-B, double-B or double-W and simply cannot use colourless mana for most the time, so hand with Wasteland+Land+goodstuff is crap most of the time. This is a major problem. In a deadguy relying heavily on LD/Manadenial feat. Vindi+Sinkhole+ maybe Smallpox and Loam I would play it for sure, but weaken my manabase heavily for a random Screw once a time is not appealing for me (in my experience you get most of the games with an randomscrew in your hands anyway, maybe not so fast and secure but you would get it)

this is only my opinion as an Legacy-noob but as far it worked out^^

EDIT: What do you guys think about the spoiled white guy, doublestrike + protection from vegetables and pointremoval sounds like the perfect carrier for our Swords (double-trigger *yummiÜ). Supporting WW wasn't big trouble until now and gets with him even more interesting. With SoFaI he hits for 12, draws 2 cards and has prot from everything, except white. That is badass^^

[JadeOberg]

I won't be playing the new guy....Double white will be hard to get. I like Nighthawk In my 3cc slot as well, he just does so much...but who knows, until the new guy is tested not much can be said.

[JadeOberg]

Short tourney report from a weekly. 18 people. Very diverse meta.

R1 Sneak Show

g1 turn one discard and turn two tidehollow after he mulls. He scoops after a few turns
g2 Thoutseize and hymn on turn two gg

1-0 2-0

r2 goblins

g1 I'm able to hold him off for 5 turns with removal and discard until I get a SOFI online.
g2 More of the same..SOFI is too much, especially with Nighthawk.

2-0 4-0

r3 Bant Surviva a vine

g1 He mulls to five...sees one land in first 3 draws, I vindicate his land, then another the next turn.
g2 I have a lackluster hand, so does he and I lose to pumped up rootwallas because all of my guys are bears without equipment
g3 We both build an impressive board, I'm swinging with Nighthawk with SOLS to negate his double vengevine attacks. Eventually I perish the board and swing in for the W

3-0 6-1

r4 ooze survival

g1 Bob gets me down to 3 life and he fauna shamans on triskelion to finish me...I had double nighthawk and was going to be swinging with equipment the next turn
g2 Progenitus turn 3 with no answeres

3-1 6-3

top 8 bw control (kind of a mirror except not)

g1 takes about 40 minutes as we each anwer everything...eventually I stick a nightwak with both swords and finish him
g2 he dominates from the get go with double hymn
g3 we decide to draw because it is midnight and we want to go home

3-1-1 7-4


Nighthawk one me a few games...Bob won me a few games....SFM is the nuts....Mulliganned only once all night

[Leto]

gz to your performance, makes me even more eager to get the missing parts of my deck together^^

[DrNojman]

Congratulations Jade! Could you share your list?

[from Cairo]

Sideboard per meta Usually been running 4 extirpate and 2 Fae Mcabre, 4 pithing needle, 3 Duress, 2 Perish


Really like your MD, any thoughts on a post-Survival sideboard? There probably isn't as much a demand for 6 'yard hate spells and 4 Needle, though I'm not sure what would be best. Maybe some extra removal to stall versus Tribal and Zoo while you get equipment online? Some sort of 'Disenchant' type effects might be nice too if expecting a resurgence in CBT and Enchantress (possibly Affinity too depending what the rest of this block brings).

This deck still seems positioned well though, so hopefully it continues to be tuned and do well.

[JadeOberg]

First off, huge props to Gene for top 8ing in Kansas City this past weekend. Gene and I are in the the same play group. We play slightly different lists of Deadguy but his worked nicely as he went 7-1 in swiss and loss in the quaterfinals during a sudden death game 3 against Goblins. His opponent was on the play in game three and showed him the turn one lackey, so Gene mulled down to two to find and answer and couldn't... and ended up losing under unusual and unfortunate circumstances...his deck dominates goblins with no time restraints..... Anyhow. Deadguy will get a little more attention maybe after his placing. Star City games has his deck list.

@Dr.Nojman my list is about 5 posts up.

@cairo Post survival....I think I'll cut the graveyard hate down to 5 cards...however since the banning I've seen Dredge in both tournaments I've played in (one I lost playing with Faeries...the other I won playing Zoo) I think I am going to run 4 Mcabre and 1 extirpate in the board...Mcabre is so sick...allowing us to be aggressive and tapping out while still being able to remove their stuff at instant speed and without being countered. Neddle is so amazing against everything that I think I will always play 3 or 4 in my board...with increase in CB decks, top will always be hit.... I name deed, or EE or planeswalkers, or belcher, seigegang, or vial or anything really. I'll keep atleast two duress for Combo. Additional permanent hate would be ideal...Needle takes care of a lot of these, but i understand the disenchant effect desire. I'm going to just settle being comfy with vindicate and and my discard. I think that Newhorizon will see some more play now (since it was argueably the best deck between reanimator and survival) so perish should still be well positioned...at that will usually get two zoo animals for you. I don't think the board needs major changes at this point. We crush goblins and merfolk...and they were each well represented in Kansas City. I still really like this deck and will play it at larger tournaments. For now I'm playing anything with Price of Progress :) at my local shop. Lots of Duals running around.

[JadeOberg]

Another thing we should consider is with the increase in CB decks...is Aether Vial going to become an auto include? Gene's list may indicate that...I'm excited to read his matchup reports

[rickythejerk]

I’ll try to answer any questions for a week until I disappear into stalking these forums again.

I apologize for grammar, spelling, and other mistakes – writing this with 4 hours of sleep and 10-12ish hours of magic. I feel I owe the MTG online community for my Top 4, so here is my report for Starcitygames Legacy Open: San Jose.

An intro about myself. My name is Ricky and I mainly play legacy casual, and I stalk these forums because I like Legacy. I hate Mulligans and SBing. My friends convinced me to go along with them even though I was really hesitant, especially when I had to wake up at 6:30 AM to prepare for the trip. I was choosing between Death and Taxes and Deadguy Ale (with or without Vials).

I made Deadguy Ale last weekend and play tested for like 4-6 hours with my friends, mainly playing against Counter Rebel, Pox, and Elves, and some casual decks. I did get in 3 games each against Merfolk and Goblins. One of my friends, Denny, played Counterbalance but we never got to play each other (he was focusing on the goblin and merfolk matchups). I didn’t really get to play deadguy ale a lot, but it’s somewhat similar to DnT. Less tricks, but better removal and hand disruption. In the end I chose Deadguy because I love hand disruption and like to know what is in another person’s hand.

The day before the tournament, I was mulling over to play something similar to JadeOBerg’s list or the one that Top 8thed in Kansas City. I decided to go with JadeOBergs because I think Vial is only good with tricks and the only trick Vial I think was good for was Sculler during their draw step. Otherwise we have a bunch of grizzly bears with some awesome abilities which don’t change the board presence at all, unlike flickerwisp and mangara. The way I see it, Deadguy Ale with Vial is more like DnT, but with a weaker creature base combined with hand disruption. And Nighthawk is the bomb because you will lose a lot of life due to Thoughtseize and Dark Confidant and Fetches. Also, people say Vial will help you with Counterbalance, but with so much hand disruption we have, I wasn't too worried about Counterbalance (also vindicate). And Needles can come in against Counterbalance and Vial decks.

Here was the list I ended up playing and notes of why I picked them. A combination of JadeOBerg's points and my love of DnT. I expected tribal mainly and combo and never expected counterbalance (3 made top 8, and my friend was placed 9th). But either way, I don’t think I have enough experience with any matchup with this deck, so I just went with the flow.

Creatures

4 Mother of Runes - Good to protect your other dudes who have awesome abilities. If it gets to tap, it is a lot of CA
4 Tidehollow Sculler - The reason I picked Deadguy Ale, I love this card just by reading it and discard is awesome. However, it can be underwhelming at times if they have 2 removal spells and its basically a grizzly bear
4 Dark Confidant - Black = BoB of Tombstalker, and I had BoBs and no Tombstalkers)
4 Stoneforge Mystic - I agree with JadeOBerg here. The P/T of creatures in this deck suck. Equipment is needed to win.
4 Vampire Nighthawk - This vs Serra Avenger, but without Vial, Nighthawk came in.

Spells

1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Swords to Plowshares –
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Diabolic Edict
4 Vindicate

I initially ran 3 duress over the inquisitions and diabolic edict. But since I expected tribal, I opted for inquisition to stop their aggroness. Diabolic edict is there for random emrakuls, progenitius, and random stuff.

Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrublands
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Karakas
5 swamp
3 plains

Some people like fetches, but I like basics. 14 black – 12 white ratio seems okay to me.

Sideboard
4 Pithing Needle
4 Faerie Macabre
3 Engineered Plague
1 Path to Exile
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Duress

Honestly I didn’t know what to pick for my sideboard so I went for the generic stuff. Needle is good against random targets. Faerie Macabere vs the Artifact GY Hate – I like hatebears more because I can easily swap creature for creature instead of having to decide on what to side out. Plagues are for elves and goblins – not so well against merfolk when they have 12 or more lords. Removal for aggro and duresses for control and combo.

Random thoughts –
Nighthawk was good, but 4 may be too much because 1) It never comes down turn 3 unless I had nothing else to play. Can clog up hands.
Tidehollow Sculler – Either a champion or a dead card depending on what you see in their hand.

Equipment Package + Mystics – really mana intensive. Can slow you down and you will lose or help you win.

Diabolic Edicts – Underwhelming today. No emrakul or progenitus and maybe that was a good thing.

Faerie Macabre – Only mattered in 1 match up, but I either played it wrong or it wasn’t enough.

Friend recommended Elspeth, Knight-Errant, but this deck have mana problems the first few turns of the game.

I fetched SoFI unless I can equip a Jitte next turn that can swing. SoLS was when I needed life.

Here were my matchups based on recollection. I apologize if I forget anything. I’ll edit this post if I remember more. I apologize if I spell your name wrong. I’ll try to include my SB decisions if I remember correctly and they may be wrong so don’t take this as a guide. Also, I don’t really know how to SB and I am too impatient for mulligans. Shuffling the deck drives me crazy sometimes…so I tend to keep playable, and not stellar hands.

Match 1 New Horizons (Saw Knight, Goyfs, and Terravore) – Ryan (won die roll)

G1 (w)
I destroyed his lands with Wasteland and Vindicate and stalled out until I beat with SoFI

G2 (L) - Inquisitions for Path and Edict.
He stifled my wasteland and wastelanded my only land.

G3 (w)
I started with hand disruption with MoM protecting me until I drew removal. Interesting note was that I casted a Mystic fetching SoFI. I believed he drew 2 stifles afterwards and stifled the ability twice. Didn’t really get to land the SoFI until 3-5 turns later.
Confidant = super card advantage.

Match 2 – Dredge – Andy (won die roll)

G1 (w)
Tidehollow sculler and mainboard discard stalled him until I landed a SoFI.

G2 (L) - Moms for faerie macabres, and stp for needles. Removal stp was a mistake.
I had hand disruption + dark confidant on opening hand. I discarded his Cabal therapy, but he drew another one right after, and he made me discard my stoneforge mystic. Confidant allowed me to draw Faerie Macabre, but he had 2 bridges and 2 dread returns in his GY, a discard outlet, and 2 more bridges in his hand. While 2-3 Narcomoebas were on the stack I chose the 2 bridges but he dread returned and beat me in the face with a giant Troll.

G3 (w) STP came back in.
He beats me with a threshold putrid imp and recurring ichorids. Vampire Nighthawk + Dark Confidant gave me time and outs against him. I was down to 3 life at one point and Confidant revealed another Bob and put me at 1, but I had Jitte and SoLS on a Nighthawk for the win.

Match 3 – Rock/Junk – Brian (won die roll)

G1 (w)
I won die roll thoughtseized him. He had plains, top, mox diamond,2x thoughtseizes , hymns, goyf. I wanted to protect the Confidant in my hand, so I made him discard the diamond. He didn't top into another land for awhile

G2 (w) - Either inquisitions or thoughtseizes for path and edict.

He double hymned me this game, but I had removal for his creatures. He drew a bunch of land while I drew threats and removal.

Match 4 – Affinity – Tom (lost die roll)

G1 (w)
I had removal for his creatures and Bob gave me the CA to win.

G2 (w) - inquisitions for path and edict

He mulls down to 5 or 6 with a 1 land hand with a springleaf drum. I wasteland his land and vindicated the drum.

Match 5 – Counterbalance – Vidianto (won die roll)

G1 (L)
He locks me with Balance + Top, and kills me with a Vendilion Clique.

G2 (L) - stp for needles. 1 inquisition and edict for duresses. Should not have removed all my removal. Never played against counterbalance so was unsure what to do.
I kept a 1 land hand with Thoughtseize and Pithing Needle. He essentially ignores them and resolves a vendilion clique and beats me down. I eventually draw more lands, but they were wastelands (had 2 nighthawks and 1-2 vindicates in my hand...).

Match 6 – Merfolk – Eric (won die roll)

G1 (w)
I thoughtseized him first, but he FoW pitching FoW. He plays wasteland into Vial. I assumed he doesn’t have any more FoWs so I stoneforge mystic into a SoFI and wins shortly.

G2 (w)- Thoughtseizes for Needles. Inquisitions for Edict/Path
He mutavault into aether vial. I pithing needle Aether Vial. He doesn’t draw lands and concedes.

Match 7 - Burn – Bel

G1 (w)
He weenie beats me with Goblin Guides, Hellspark Elemental, and Lavamancers combined with Burn. Eventually I bait enough burns on my creatures and resolve a nighthawk with SoFI or Jitte on it and that won me the game.

G2 (L) – thoughtsiezes for duresses and 2 needles.
He destroyed me. Grim Lavamancer stopped my dudes and he burned me to death.

G3 (w)
I was down to 3 at one point, but Nighthawk + Equipment wins me the game.

Match 8 – Counterbalance – Gerry
I was placed third so far in the tournament and we decided to ID.

Top 8.

Match 1 – Goblins (R/G) – Stefan (lost die roll)

G1 (L)
All I remembered was he had 1 wasteland 2 mountains and an active vial. It was my turn 3 and he was tapped out. I can choose between vindicate, dark confidant, or stoneforge mystic. I opted to vindicate his wasteland because I had a scrubland and I felt that if he wasted me, I would be mana screwed. Deadguy ale curves out at 3, but its pretty mana intensive with equipments, equipping, and removal. He shortly overran me.

G2 (w)– Vindicates and diabolic edict for 3 plagues and 2 needles
I mull down to five to a 3 land hand with stp and engineered plague. I stp his lackey. He plays vial. I draw a stoneforge fetching SoFI, and he can’t stop it because Gempalm Incinerator does nothing with no goblins. I engineered plague him the next turn after. He tinstreet hooligan my SoFI after I beat with it once. But Plagues stall out until I draw another plague + equipment.

G3 (w)
I kept a double engineered plague hand with a sculler. He plays vial. I fetch a land and end. I didn’t really get to start dropping the engineered plagues for awhile because he kept porting my land. Eventually I landed a mystic. He opted to cast a ringleader (revealing 3 lands and a vial) eventually over porting me. From there, I dropped an engineered plague, but I was down to 7 by then with a plague and Sculler with a SoFI. He has a Vial at 5 and brings in Siege Gang and double shocks me bringing me down to 3. I cast my 2nd plague and the match ended shortly afterwards.

Match 2 – Goblins (R/B) – Ian (lost die roll)
Vindicates and diabolic edict for 3 plagues and 2 needles
G1 and G2 (L and L) – He destroyed me with explosive starts while I mull into playable, but not great hands. Goblins is scary. G1, he had triple lackey. G2, he lackey into matron for ringleader. Lackey into ringleader also revealing warchief, 2 piledrivers and something else, while I only had two tidehollow scullers on the board.

[workingdude]

Congrats on your finish! I've been playing deadguy since it had sinkholes and am glad some sort of version is seeing some success. Although with your matchups/luck, mana denial seems to be a theme.

A quick question: Game 1 vs Brian in match 3. Thoughtseizing mox diamond... was that to mainly color-screw the opponent? I can see the hymns being shut off for a couple of turns because of no mox, but if you wanted to cut him off on lands, I'd have chosen top. This way he cannot dig for lands, and if he wants to use diamond, he has to discard a land anyways.

[rickythejerk]

@ workingdude.

I made a mistake. He had 2 thoughtseizes and a hymn in his hand actually (goes to edit), and I wanted to protect my hand which contained a Dark Confidant. Resolving BoB and having him stick a few turns will most likely give me more removal and threats.

And I wouldn't say mana denial is the main goal of the deck. I never really tried to keep someone off color because I never had the vindicate / wasteland at the right time to do it. To me right now, wastelands are good against mutavaults, other wastelands, maze of iths, ports and other annoying lands, while Vindicate is used as a swiss army knife that can do anything for you, including mana denial. If I really wanted to play mana denial, I would play sinkholes, but many legacy decks can still operate smoothly with 1-2 lands, vials, or dig for more lands with tops/cantrips. My DnT side wants to say mana denial is awesome if you play Vial because you just get to port/waste them while you Vial in creatures.

[Justin]

Great job, but I'm curious as to why you did not play Hymn to Tourach. It's always been a staple in Legacy black decks. The random two-for-one for two mana seems to good to leave out. Maybe it would go in the in the Inquisition and Edict spots?

Also, you seemed less than thrilled with Nighthawk. What other creature might go in the slot? Maybe Gatekeeper of Malakir if you think you can hit the triple black.

[JadeOberg]

Congrats Ricky! Excellent finish and tourney report. I am flattered that my list was influential in your card decisions. I am very happy that you did so will with Deadguy, the deck is seriously good. Just a couple questions based on your report.

How was karakas? bounce anything of their's? or mostly just a wasteland target for opponents?

Do you think Nighthawk should be cut to 3? it seems like he was really good for you, and he is okay in multiples....as long as you curve out.

Would you run Hymn to Tourach next time? or was always having turn one disruption key for you?

I find myself fetching SoFI just like you do, and will only get Jitte if I too can cast and equip next turn.

Running only 4 fetches, did you ever encounter a problem finding your color?

@ Justin I ran Gatekeeper for a long time and absolutely loved him. I needed to upgrade to 2 urborgs to support him though. Triple black is actually tough. However, he was cut for BOB a couple months ago. We already have 8 removal spells at the minimum...discard which will hit creatures....equipment that kills creatures...and Nighthawk who trades with anycreature. And nighthawk plus MOM makes your opponent feel real awkward. So unless your meta is full of NO PRO and emrakul, I dont think he is good enough right now.

One more thing, I totally agree with you about Tidehollow. I love that card and how he can just win games for you by offering a clock, disruption, and a body to hold a sword.

Congrats again Ricky! way to play! I hope you stick with the deck. Isn't it fun bashing with huge equipment?

[rickythejerk]

@Justin & JadeOberg - my explanations may be wrong since I'm not an expert.

1) Karakas was alright. I didn't really need it with the matches I played and I just used one in place of a regular plains. I will probably take it out because the chances of 1 karakas saving me is unlikely.

2) Seeing two nighthawks in my opening hand made me sad sometimes. But having two in play is awesome because you have a deadly blocker while you swing in for some life gain and hopefully some equipment triggers. The question I ask myself is if I remove 1 nighthawk, what will take its place? And I don't know the answer to that. It has to be a creature because we need creatures for equipment to be effective and playing a singleton creature is not my style.

3) I will most likely not run hymns even though its a 2 for 1. I prefer to directly remove cards that can harm me and see what is in their hand. For example, I can remove their removal so I can stick a bob or counterspells to land a mystic. And having a first turn discard followed by mystic/bob/sculler is a pretty cool play and it happened often. See below also.

4) The only time I felt mana or colored screwed was when I was wastelanded/ported, which is why I tend to play more basics. Perhaps the reason I didn't feel mana screwed was because I never needed double black second turn for a hymn. Or I was just lucky.

4.5) Non Marsh Flats fetchlands would mean fetching either a scrubland, giving them an opportunity to wasteland us, or a swamp/plains at the cost of 1 life. I feel every point of life matters for this deck because we are hurting ourselves via Marsh Flats, Thoughtseizes, and Bobs. On top of that, we usually do not block with Bob or Tidehollow Sculler unless we have to or have a Mother out (but Mom can block by herself).

5) Diabolic edict is a good removal spell until you are up against elves or goblins because they swarm you. I might take it out for another inquistion/duress or a path to exile. I don't think diabolic edict is a good answer to Emrakul or Progenitus because Natural Order decks or Elf decks will have another creature out. We have discard against Show and Tell or Sneak Attack. Perhaps Retribution of the Meek is a better answer because our creatures are so tiny unless they have equipment on them, and even then, MoMs and Mystics still survive. Oh snap, I think I will replace my edicts with Retributions.

6) I agree that Gatekeeper is an amazing card, but triple black is hard to come by, especially when we want to fetch out basics (if possible) against unknown opponents or people playing wasteland.

Note - Since I am a legacy casual player, I don't get to play magic often, and playing against tier 1-2 decks are even rarer for me so I may be just be pulling shit out of ass. In the meantime, I'll be brainstorming a deck with Aether Vial, Tidehollow Sculler, and Flickerwisp.

Oh yeah, I totally forgot to thank you JadeOBerg for your list and suggestions, so here I am thanking you. Thank you!!!

[Rainbow Maker]

Congratulations ricky!!! Did you have a friend that played r/b goblins and had beef jerky?

[annoiato]

@rickythejerk: congratulation for the result! What is your sideboard strategy against G/W/B Junk?

[rickythejerk]

@ Rainbow Maker - Yes I had a friend playing r/b goblins but I did not know he had beef jerky. He wore glasses and a wool hat and is called Anh.

@ annoiato - I do not have much experience against junk since I only played against it once, but I believe my SB choices were correct with the list I had. They play goyfs, knights, and bobs for sure, and their other "threat slots" range from pridemages to Elspeth, which means their creatures simply outclass ours even if we have equipment. Discard will not do us much good when they land one of their beefy creatures that outclass ours in terms of P/T. More removal on the other hand will help. And discarding on the play is not as effective because they run a discard suite also (thoughtseize and hymn with mox diamond).

I can also SB in needles and faerie macabres, but I don't think they're needed. Faerie macabres can shrinky goyfs and knights, but our creatures P/T are so small in the first place that I don't think it will matter. Needles on the other hand can be used against knights, top, elspeth, pridemages, deeds, and maze of iths, but what will you side out for them? The only cards that can come out for needles is the discard suite, but I see needles as very ineffective cards against Junk. Needle can affect tops, knights, maze of iths, pridemages, deeds, and elspeths, but they only play 1-2 of each except top and knights, and Junk will most likely be unaffected when we needle those cards. Needle also doesn't affect their other cards much either because they only play 1-2 of each, so we will end up holding the needle in our hands or randomly naming something hoping that it stops something instead of being a dead card. Because of that, I would rather still run some discard mainboard over needles. Oh yeah, thoughtseize should come out first before inquisition because they also curve out at 3 besides elspeth.

Turn 1 discard followed by turn 2 mystic/sculler/bob is such an awesome play that I will most likely bump up the inquistions to 3 in the mainboard.

[InResponseForceOfWill]

If I run 4x Sinkhole, do you think it is a necessity to run Dark Rituals? I love Sinkhole, but it's an underwhelming late game draw, and I shed a tear everytime I draw a Dark Ritual after turn 3 or 4.

My current list:

5 Swamp
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
2 Tainted Field
1 Plains

4 Dark Confidant
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir

3 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Stoneforge Mystic

1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice


I'd like to squeeze in 2 or maybe 3 Sensei's Divining Tops. Possibly -4x Sinkhole, +3x Top +1x Inquisition?
I kinda wanna test out Mother of Runes too.
Opinions on Gerrard's Verdict? I ran it before and liked it. But I removed them for Mystics.

[Justin]

There is a thread on why Sinhole is not so good in the current meta here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19707-[SCD]-Sinkhole

As for Dark Ritual, you probably don't want to run it in Deadguy Ale anymore. The card disadvantage usually hurts worse than the advantage of the tempo gain. It's also a pretty terrible topdeck most of the time. Its best use is for combo decks or maybe in some decks that play Tombstalker.

[InResponseForceOfWill]

Other than StP and Gatekeeper, what are the better creature removal cards? I've seen some use Path to Exile, Innocent Blood, or Diabolic Edict. My noob might be showing, but what about Grasp of Darkness?

[Greenpoe]

Smother, Snuff Out, Shriekmaw, Vendetta, or even Cabal Pit are some other choices. Snuff Out is my favorite for black removal.

[InResponseForceOfWill]

Smother, Snuff Out, Shriekmaw, Vendetta, or even Cabal Pit are some other choices. Snuff Out is my favorite for black removal.

Snuff out is definitely awesome, but I'd be hesitant to use it with Dark Confidant. You could lose 4 life on the draw for its cc, then another 4 life to cast it. Consuming Vapors would be nice to use too, but again, 4cc meh. Grasp of Darkness might appear to be a crappy common, but I think it might be a valid removal spell. I'm going to consider testing it. My list would look like:

5 Swamp
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
2 Tainted Field
1 Plains

4 Dark Confidant
4 Vindicate
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir

3 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Stoneforge Mystic

2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Gerrard's Verdict/Grasp of Darkness/Chainer's Edict/Diabolic Edict/Innocent Blood

1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Do you think 3 Tops is better than 2?

Opinions? Criticism?

[Rebirth]

The sinkhole tactic is a bit random in my opinion. What i like about my half proxy Deadguy deck is that you play relevant cards all the time that get you card advantage. I really enoy the disruption, removal, awesome creatures and CA power it has and thanks to the equipment package, you can turn every creature you have into a serious danger! yes even a gatekeeper :) Though i am not sure which deck i want to play, this or Merfolk... i don't want to spend too much money on different legacy decks, want one that can win tournemants, obviously merfolk is already proven, yet i like Deadguy... and soon the Phyrexian Crusader is also available as a sideboard/mainboard card.

Lands: 20
4x Scrubland
4x Fetid Heath
4x Marsh Flats
5x Swamp
2x Plains
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Creatures: 19
4x Dark Confidant
4x Gatekeeper of Malakir
4x Tidehollow Sculler
4x Vampire Nighthawk
3x Stoneforge Mystic

Sorcery: 12
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Vindicate

Instants: 4
4x Swords to Plowshares

Artifacts: 5
2x Sensei’s Divining Top
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Sword of Fire and Ice

[TheSocMethod]

I know Sword of Body and Mind hasn't really found a home in Deadguy, as I've only seen one build ever running it, but I'm interested to hear people's thoughts on the newly spoiled Sword of Feast and Famine: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/20990_The_Magic_Show_218_Spoilers_Besieged.html

It seems strictly worse than SoFI, SoLS and Jitte, but does anyone have any other thoughts on it, or is this just plain inferior/unsuitable/unusable?

[Rebirth]

I know Sword of Body and Mind hasn't really found a home in Deadguy, as I've only seen one build ever running it, but I'm interested to hear people's thoughts on the newly spoiled Sword of Feast and Famine: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/20990_The_Magic_Show_218_Spoilers_Besieged.html

It seems strictly worse than SoFI, SoLS and Jitte, but does anyone have any other thoughts on it, or is this just plain inferior/unsuitable/unusable?

Bad, both the new swords have no purpose in the deck. We have enough disruption with hymn, inquisition and darkhollow sculler. Fire and Ice gives us more damage that can be used as removal or direct damage to the opponents face and it has the card draw part. Light and Shadow gives life gain which is good against aggro and good in general to cover dark confidants life loss and it brings back creatures, our creatures are all CA machines, like Confidant, Gatekeeper and Sculler, so bringing them back is double the CA.

I firmly believe the version i posted is the strongest and the only thing Mirrodin Besieged has given Deadguy Ale is Phyrexian Crusader as a Sideboard card for goblins, zoo and burn!

[makochman]

I firmly believe the version i posted is the strongest and the only thing Mirrodin Besieged has given Deadguy Ale is Phyrexian Crusader as a Sideboard card for goblins, zoo and burn!

Phyrexian Crusader dies to Warren Weirding, and because of Infect, he's little better than a wall. Maybe if you could Dark Ritual him turn 1 and just keep beating.


What do people think of the Aether Vial'd version? It seems to me that the Equipment toolbox and Vial are natural additions to this deck.
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/20973_Aether_Vial_or_Buy_This_Format.html

[Leto]

In my opinion, the Mirran Crusader is superior to the Phyrexian (Poison in a non-poison Deck is shit). Prot: Tarmogoyf, Knight of the ... and a good handful of Removal + Doublestrike to Trigger our Equipments twice is it worth to achieve Double-W (which I need to hit anyway, cause I play Elspeth^^)

By the Way, what do you think of the Needle-Man

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/9651/phyrexianrevoker.jpg

valid sideboard-option?

[Rebirth]

Are you guys trying to troll or are you simply dumb?

Nighthawk will still be a better MB card than both of the crusaders, however when it comes to SB, Phyrexian Crusader is superior. What the hell do you want mirran crusader? to get it bolted, lightning healixed, pathed, swords to plowshare? The Phyrexian Crusader = Zoo Killer, Goblin Killer and is handy vs Burn decks. The Infect and First Strike are not important, the PRO RED AND WHITE are important. Mirran Crusader is garbage compared to Phyrexian Crusader, also the Phyrexian Crusader dies to Warren Weirding? Lol, since when does Zoo, goblins and burn play that? goblins maybe, if they are splashing and they have that card, most goblin builds that splash, splash black for disruption.

[LegacyDan]

Lands: 20
4x Scrubland
4x Fetid Heath
4x Marsh Flats
5x Swamp
2x Plains
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Creatures: 19
4x Dark Confidant
4x Gatekeeper of Malakir
4x Tidehollow Sculler
4x Vampire Nighthawk
3x Stoneforge Mystic

Sorcery: 12
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Vindicate

Instants: 4
4x Swords to Plowshares

Artifacts: 5
2x Sensei’s Divining Top
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Sword of Fire and Ice

So where is the SB? And why two random SDT in the main? You only have 20 lands in a deck that is kinda mana intensive and requires equip costs. Its seems like those two slots will be best as lands. Example: Gobbos, Merfolk, and D+T all run as few as 21 lands, but they all have Aether Vial to cheat dudes into play. And they don't even have two different colors in their decks (outside of splashes for the SB).

[ForlornEgoist]

So where is the SB? And why two random SDT in the main? You only have 20 lands in a deck that is kinda mana intensive and requires equip costs. Its seems like those two slots will be best as lands. Example: Gobbos, Merfolk, and D+T all run as few as 21 lands, but they all have Aether Vial to cheat dudes into play. And they don't even have two different colors in their decks (outside of splashes for the SB).

Well, SDT is an MVP when it comes to fixing draws, particularly with Bob (and fetches), since as you'll look his build is running 10 3cc, so being able to fix draws is invaluable, particularly in MU's where you really don't want to see Hymns/Inquisition (TS/Dur). Although if you're going to be running top I'd push it up to 3. My build runs 4, however I also run Tombstalkers so I need to gurantee a Top.

As for lands, the deck can function perfectly well on just 20 even with equips because Stoneforge let's us cheat them in for :1: cheaper. Also, the reason the decks you mentioned run more than 20 is that they run 8 lands that don't produce colored mana (Waste/Rish/Muta) whereas we only run 4 Waste and are able to dig through our decks for land via Bob. Many builds also opt for Urborg which turns our fetches into mana while doing nothing for the opponent (since, let's face it, no-one who wants to make a Top 8 plays black :P).

Forlorn Egoist

[LegacyDan]

Even then, this dude should really either be running 3-4 SDT or none at all. I have run this deck in the past,and I must say you either use Top or you don't. Bob gets you enough draws, and the rest of the deck should be focused on punching in damage while keeping your opponet off balance. Hell, those two spots can easily become Jotun Grunts to help cycle your hate and attack their graveyard while hitting their face.

I am also currious as to this dudes reason for running Fetid Heath over Wasteland. Does he not encounter other Wastes? Or Mazes? Vindicates can attack opposing lands that slow you down, but Wasteland allows you to use your Vindicates on more important threats. At the very least least get rid of the heaths for +1 Urborg ToY, +1 Volrath's Stronghold, +2 Fetches to help solve some of this decks problems.

And I am very familiar with Stoneforge Mystic, my main deck is Death and Taxes afterall. Mystic is a great tutor, but even with her ability, it still costs 6 mana to play her/cheat into play/equip an attacker. Using "extra" mana on a top is hard to come by when you are dumping mana into the equipment package. My honest suggestion is to go with the SDT package OR the Mystic package, not both.

[makochman]

Warren Weirding? [...] goblins maybe, if they are splashing and they have that card, most goblin builds that splash, splash black for disruption.

Please have a look at recent Goblin decks at deckcheck.org and don't brandish your ignorance like that.

[Rebirth]

Please have a look at recent Goblin decks at deckcheck.org and don't brandish your ignorance like that.

I did and i see many variations. I see mono red, i see splashes with green and black. I saw some lists who used 2x Warren Weirding in their entire 75, and they ended up way LOWER than the other variations of the goblin deck, also not all black splashes had Warren Weirding!! Warren Weirding won't be encountered that much and if it happens, you get to choose what to sacrafise, not them, honestly smother would have been more frightning. I am not brandishing my ignorance, it is simply that you are delusional if you think Phyrexian Crusader, a card that rapes 3 decks, will be overshadowed by Warren Weirding, a card that is played as 2-3 off in one of the many variations of one of those 3 decks! Maybe it is time to consider playing another game? apparantly you don't understand it that well and brand people who disagree with you as Ignorant, the irony.

I don't really mind if you disagree with me, after 1 month everybody will realize the power of Phyrexian Crusader, Mirran Crusader is garbage, get bolted/path/plowshares 24/7.

@LegacyDan and ForlornEgoist:

I have been switching between 2-3 stoneforge mystics and 3-2 sensei's divining top, sensei's divining top is great and all, but multiple copies are dead cards imo, you can get that fixed with fetches though and 3 tops is more consistant. So it comes down to what you prefer and i am not sure what i prefer yet... lol.

About Wasteland; I am running 20 lands and i need them all to produce colored mana. Merfolk that runs 20 lands including 4 wasteland is a mono coloured deck and has vial, deadguy ale doesn't.

About "not enough land"; I play Deadguy Ale because of it's disruption, when i am going to equip creatures and all, the game is not in a "Race mode". I like deadguy because it has awesome disruption for the start of the game, Inquisition, Hymn, Sculler. So start, disrupt, destroy creatures or permenants with path, gatekeeper and vindicate. A dark confidant and you will win with the raw CA or a stoneforge mystic and fetch an equipment and win with that. I don't know how you guys decide on taking mulligans or not, but if i don't have early game disruption, i am more tempted to take a mulligan.

[LegacyDan]

Dude, those kind of comments are not good for discussions on open threads. I have noticed that several of your previous posts are rude, calm down.

[Rebirth]

Dude, those kind of comments are not good for discussions on open threads. I have noticed that several of your previous posts are rude, calm down.

Updated my post with a reply to you and the other guy about your questions.

[LegacyDan]

Just because something dies to removal doesn't mean it shouldn't be tested. Hell, if that was the case, NONE of your current critters should be in the deck. Doublestrike and Pro: G/B is nothing t sneeze at. He gets around Goyf and a lot of the little black dudes in the format (not including the random flyers). Now, I currently run another deck with the Mystic package and 2x Kor Duelists and I must say, doublestrike (no matter the critter) is AMAZING on an equiped creature.


The main thing I do not like about Phyrexian Crusader is the Infect. It might as well be Wither, that would be better for the deck. Putting a SoFaI on him is nice, but sadly the sword deals the extra damage not the Crusader. I would much rather get one a successful MC w/ SoFaI in (12 damage, 2 cards) than a PC (4 poison, 2 damage, 1 card).

[Rebirth]

Just because something dies to removal doesn't mean it shouldn't be tested. Hell, if that was the case, NONE of your current critters should be in the deck. Doublestrike and Pro: G/B is nothing t sneeze at. He gets around Goyf and a lot of the little black dudes in the format (not including the random flyers). Now, I currently run another deck with the Mystic package and 2x Kor Duelists and I must say, doublestrike (no matter the critter) is AMAZING on an equiped creature.


The main thing I do not like about Phyrexian Crusader is the Infect. It might as well be Wither, that would be better for the deck. Putting a SoFaI on him is nice, but sadly the sword deals the extra damage not the Crusader. I would much rather get one a successful MC w/ SoFaI in (12 damage, 2 cards) than a PC (4 poison, 2 damage, 1 card).

I will keep my Nighthawk as my MD 3cmc beater/finisher. Phyrexian Crusader is going in my sideboard for burn, goblins and zoo. It is true that the infect on it makes it worse, however with wither instead of infect it would be the most broken black 3cmc creature ever printed (imagine nighthawk having 3 power instead of 2 that would be overpowered, both this nighthawk and phyrexian crusader are strong, but not overpowerd, sadly black doesn't get the love blue and green get lol). Mirran Crusader and Vampire Nighthawk, landing an equipment on them and pwning is awesome and all, but vs burn, zoo and goblins they can easily respond to your equipment with a removal, especially ZOO. Phyrexian Crusader won't be removed, can't be blocked and destroys their creatures if needed...

[Nidd]

P Crusader with SoFaI kills the opponent by connecting 3 times.
M Crusader with SoFaI kills the opponent by connecting 2 times.

That alone should make the decision for you very easy.

Phyrexian Crusader, while having a badass artwork, is not made for any deck that tries to win by reducing the opponents life total to 0.

[Rebirth]

P Crusader with SoFaI kills the opponent by connecting 3 times.
M Crusader with SoFaI kills the opponent by connecting 2 times.

That alone should make the decision for you very easy.

Phyrexian Crusader, while having a badass artwork, is not made for any deck that tries to win by reducing the opponents life total to 0.

Mirran Crusader will get bolted, swords to plowshares, path, goblin incinerator, chain lightning etc etc 50% of the time, while Phyrexian Crusader has immunity.

[CorpT]

Mirran Crusader will get bolted, swords to plowshares, path, goblin incinerator, chain lightning etc etc 50% of the time, while Phyrexian Crusader has immunity.

It's going to be sweet when you get your opponent playing zoo to 1 life and 8 poison counters.

[LegacyDan]

I am still curious to see what his SB looks like.


It's going to be sweet when you get your opponent playing zoo to 1 life and 8 poison counters.

lolz

[TheSocMethod]

Hey just wanted to type a quick tournament report for anyone who may be interested. Small 15 person tourney for a Library of Alexandria. Went 3-1, just missing top 4. I got paired first round against the eventual winner of the Library, who was my only loss.

4x Scrublands
4x Marsh Flats
2x Verdant Catacombs
2x Windswept Heath
4x Wasteland
4x Swamp
2x Plains

4x Mother of Runes
4x Vampire Nighthawk
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Dark Confidant

4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
1x Gerrard's Verdict
4x Vindicate
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
2x Elspeth, Knight Errant

Sideboard (expecting storm/belcher and Emrakul. Ironically, there was plenty of both, but I didn't see any)
4x Pithing Needle
4x Faerie Macabre
4x Duress
3x Diabolic Edict


Round 1: Death and Taxes (0-2)
Game 1: I mull to five and have to keep a shaky manabase. He shuts me off white with timely Wastelands. Eventually he gets an active Jitte on a Serra Avenger and I lose with three StPs and a SFM in hand.
Game 2 (+3 Needle -1 Elspeth -1 Verdict -1 Hymn): More of the same. I first turn Pithing Needle naming Vial. Second turn cast SFM fetching Jitte. He then plays a Needle naming Jitte. We stalemate for a few turns, but he manages to again shut me off white with a Wasteland, Mangara and Port. I cry at my inability to topdeck anything useful.

Round 2: Mono black Dark Depths (2-0)
Game 1: He wins die roll and rituals into duress, which completely misses, then hymn which hits two of my lands. I cry inside and think "three times in a row." I proceed to peel two lands in a row, never missing a land drop. I waste his DD and active Mom clogs up the board until I can beat in with Elspeth tokens for the win.
Game 2 (+4 Needle -1 Verdict -1 Elspeth -2 Hymn): More of the same. He first turn Inquisitions my needle but I manage to stick a Nighthawk with Vindicate and Swords back up. He never finds an answer and I beat 10 turns in a row FTW.

Round 3: Burn (2-1)
Game 1: I was confused until turn three because he is normally a goblins player and I thought he was playing some weird build with Guide and Bolt... (I'm not very sharp). I manage to get two active Moms but can't handle three Hellspark Elementals and never find a Jitte, Nighthawk or SFM. Two Bobs sat in my hand the whole game.
Game 2 (+4 Needles +4 Duress -2 Thoughtseize -4 Bob -2 Vindicate): He starts fast and gets me to 2 life. I stabilize with Nighthawk equipped with Jitte and put it out of reach.
Game 3 (same): Another fast start for him (he is playing burn after all) and gets me to 6 life. I land and equip a Jitte to a SFM with active mom on the board and think the game is won, forgetting about Sulfuric Vortex which he inconveniently topdecks. I go 4 at upkeep, crack a fetch to go to 3 and play/equip SoFI to try and dig for that damn Vindicate I cut down to 2. Swing in with SoFI and lo and behold I peel Vindicate off the trigger. I still have to pray he doesn't draw business on his next turn but he draws and plays Blood Moon. I cast Vindicate and he concedes shortly after. Very lucky.

Round 4: R/b Goblins (2-0)
Game 1: The matchup I've wanted all day. First turn Mom. Second turn SFM snagging Jitte. He can't handle the active Jitte.
Game 2 (+3 Needles -2 Elspeth -1 Verdict): I name vial with needle. He wastelands at an inopportune time, shutting himself off the 1 mana he needs to ringleader and I'm sandbagging a land anyway. I wasteland, and vindicate his Jitte, and by the time he recovers I have an active Jitte on Nighthawk. He eventually swarms and lands SGC but it's too little, too late. Didn't see a first turn Lackey either game, but had answers anyway.

While I missed top 4 and a shot at the Library, I was overall happy with the deck's performance. Deadguy feels like it has decent game against everything and great game against the two tribals, which are everywhere now. I'm definitely going to cut Elspeth and Gerrard's Verdict since they were automatic cuts every time I boarded anyway. Will try Tidehollow Sculler in their place. If you want you can check out Tim's report on his D&T deck as it is finely tuned: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?6775-[Deck]-Death-and-Taxes/page82

Also, I'd appreciate any thoughts on my list.

[Rebirth]

It's going to be sweet when you get your opponent playing zoo to 1 life and 8 poison counters.

That wil suck indeed :( ...


I am still curious to see what his SB looks like.

Sideboard: 15
4x Engineered Plague
3x Relic of Progenitus
3x Perish
3x Extirpate
2x Duress

[Iranon]

I think the right number for Sensei's Divining Top is one, very roughly analogous to Sylvan Library in Zoo. It's strong enough to warrant the spot in a deck that depends on having the right threats, answers, disruption or support cards at the right time and plays fetch lands; smoothing out Bob draws is a nice bonus. Since multiples are bad and you're not gaining spectacularly from seeing one early, one is enough.
It may look ugly and random, but right is better than pretty.

[Rebirth]

I think the right number for Sensei's Divining Top is one, very roughly analogous to Sylvan Library in Zoo. It's strong enough to warrant the spot in a deck that depends on having the right threats, answers, disruption or support cards at the right time and plays fetch lands; smoothing out Bob draws is a nice bonus. Since multiples are bad and you're not gaining spectacularly from seeing one early, one is enough.
It may look ugly and random, but right is better than pretty.

If i have a Top out, double Confidant won't be a problem, infact it is awesome! I don't think playing 1 Top is a good idea, it won't come up that often, i would atleast play 2 or non at all.

[ForlornEgoist]

If you're running the SFM package (most builds are) then that means you're running at bare minimum 10 3cc. You're also most likely running 4 TS and 8 fetch, not to mention the damage you'll be taking from the new influx of tribal and zoo via combat. Add in Bob damage and it's overkill. Top maximizes threat density while minimizing life loss, and it also gurantees you drawing the cards you need. Fixing your draws is much more necessary IMO than an extra body (eg. Tidehollow) or an extra spell (Verdict). I would set the bare minimum at 3, although I think 4 is perfectly justifiable if you want to gurantee you see it.

Forlorn Egoist

[Rebirth]

If you're running the SFM package (most builds are) then that means you're running at bare minimum 10 3cc. You're also most likely running 4 TS and 8 fetch, not to mention the damage you'll be taking from the new influx of tribal and zoo via combat. Add in Bob damage and it's overkill. Top maximizes threat density while minimizing life loss, and it also gurantees you drawing the cards you need. Fixing your draws is much more necessary IMO than an extra body (eg. Tidehollow) or an extra spell (Verdict). I would set the bare minimum at 3, although I think 4 is perfectly justifiable if you want to gurantee you see it.

Forlorn Egoist

The only thing my list doesn't have is 8 fetches, i run 4 and 8 duel lands lol... It works for me, but i am interested if there is a reasoning behind 4 duels and 8 fetches that gives an advantage over 4 fetches and 8 duels. If there is one, please feel free to enlighten me.

Lands: 20
4x Scrubland
4x Fetid Heath
4x Marsh Flats
5x Swamp
2x Plains
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Creatures: 18
4x Dark Confidant
4x Gatekeeper of Malakir
4x Tidehollow Sculler
4x Vampire Nighthawk
2x Stoneforge Mystic

Sorcery: 12
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Vindicate

Instants: 4
4x Swords to Plowshares

Artifacts: 6
3x Sensei’s Divining Top
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Sword of Fire and Ice

Sideboard: 15
4x Engineered Plague
3x Relic of Progenitus
3x Perish
3x Extirpate
2x Duress

I do switch between 2-3 SFM and 3-2 SDT to see what i prefer, but that is not that important.

[JadeOberg]

The only thing my list doesn't have is 8 fetches, i run 4 and 8 duel lands lol... It works for me, but i am interested if there is a reasoning behind 4 duels and 8 fetches that gives an advantage over 4 fetches and 8 duels. If there is one, please feel free to enlighten me.
.

I play 9 fetches and 4 duals so that I can fetch basics and play around wasteland...when I need to curve out at three, I cannot afford to get wastelanded. If you have a meta with zero wasteland...I can understand your rationale.

[JadeOberg]

Hey just wanted to type a quick tournament report for anyone who may be interested. Small 15 person tourney for a Library of Alexandria. Went 3-1, just missing top 4. I got paired first round against the eventual winner of the Library, who was my only loss.

4x Scrublands
4x Marsh Flats
2x Verdant Catacombs
2x Windswept Heath
4x Wasteland
4x Swamp
2x Plains

4x Mother of Runes
4x Vampire Nighthawk
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Dark Confidant

4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
1x Gerrard's Verdict
4x Vindicate
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
2x Elspeth, Knight Errant

Sideboard (expecting storm/belcher and Emrakul. Ironically, there was plenty of both, but I didn't see any)
4x Pithing Needle
4x Faerie Macabre
4x Duress
3x Diabolic Edict



Also, I'd appreciate any thoughts on my list.

Nice Job Matt! Which do you think is better against GOBOS, Jitte or SOFI....i guess it depends where in the game you are and if you are behind or not. I think you will like the Tidehollows. Did you ever wish you had an Urborg at any point?

[Rebirth]

I play 9 fetches and 4 duals so that I can fetch basics and play around wasteland...when I need to curve out at three, I cannot afford to get wastelanded. If you have a meta with zero wasteland...I can understand your rationale.

Nah, we got plenty merfolks and goblins. I'll try out your tactic and see how it go's :cool:

[rickythejerk]

@ sensei's divining tops - If you play tops, you should play more fetches to shuffle away dead draws.

@ mana base - although this deck curves out at 3, I like playing 4-5 lands per game because we want to drop a threat and removal/disruption especially when we draw more cards with bob. I hate being stuck on 2-3 lands and deciding between threat/equipment/removal. However, I do think all mono colored / dual colored decks should play wasteland because you can always fit them in and sometimes it can single handedly win the game for you.

@ new critters - I'm not sure if I want to dedicate sideboard slots for either. Mainboard wise, I still like nighthawk more because of the lifelink and flying. The new pithing needle creature might replace needles or a split between them...

@ sword of feast and famine - too situational. you will either need bob or sofi in play already to take advantage of the untapping. And I don't think the discard ability comes in fast enough.

@ Rebirth - maybe its your meta, but how are the inquistions doing for you compared to thoughtseizes? Natural orders scare me and discarding a FoW to land a mystic is pretty bomb.

@ TheSocMethod - Congrats and how do you like elspeth?

[Rebirth]

@ Rebirth - maybe its your meta, but how are the inquistions doing for you compared to thoughtseizes? Natural orders scare me and discarding a FoW to land a mystic is pretty bomb.


It hits 90% of the cards that are relevent. the one it doesn't hit and which sucks is goblin ringtard, but i can take those with hymn and sculler so np. No life loss really makes a difference when you are casting your second or even third Inquisition :)

[TheSocMethod]

@Jade: Jitte is so versatile. The fact that you can swap it onto a blocker after attacks and have that alone be a deterrent to them attacking is huge against goblins. Yes, you can do that with SoFI, but I think 2 more Jitte counters is far scarier to a Goblin slinger than just a guaranteed kill of one of their dudes. Actually, it was white I was shut off of :) Seriously though, Urborg can save you 3-4 life sometimes and make your Wastelands more versatile, but it's another target to be wasted. I would be uncomfortable keeping a hand with urborg, scrubland, fetch/wasteland, and it seems like you could run into that sort of thing alot... but I haven't tried it out much...

@ricky: Thanks. Would've been nice to crack top 4 though because I had favorable MUs. The best technical player won though, so I can't complain too much. I found Elspeth to be a win-more. She was the first thing I boarded out in every MU. I'm cutting her and the singleton Verdict for 3 Scullers. I think my list is now identical to Jade's, land choices notwithstanding. I think he's got the list right if you don't want to run Vial or Top.

@Rebirth: The TS or IoK debate is what I go back and forth on the most when I put this list together before every tournament. If my meta wasn't infested with so much damn combo I'd probably run a split, but I need to frequently grab tendrils, ad nausem, charbelcher, EtW, etc. The life loss of multiple TS's does add up at an alarming rate in this deck since we give away life like crazy already, but we do have 6 pieces of life gain. And, most importantly, IoK completely whiffs on cards we really want to grab, like the aforementioned combo pieces, Good Jace, Sneak Attack, Humility, and to a lesser extent, FoW. Yes, we have Vindicate to deal with Jace and the like, but I'd much rather he never hit the board. I don't want to take the 1 in 3 chance of hitting their business with Hymn. Sculler is a house against combo though :)

[Rebirth]

@Rebirth: The TS or IoK debate is what I go back and forth on the most when I put this list together before every tournament. If my meta wasn't infested with so much damn combo I'd probably run a split, but I need to frequently grab tendrils, ad nausem, charbelcher, EtW, etc. The life loss of multiple TS's does add up at an alarming rate in this deck since we give away life like crazy already, but we do have 6 pieces of life gain. And, most importantly, IoK completely whiffs on cards we really want to grab, like the aforementioned combo pieces, Good Jace, Sneak Attack, Humility, and to a lesser extent, FoW. Yes, we have Vindicate to deal with Jace and the like, but I'd much rather he never hit the board. I don't want to take the 1 in 3 chance of hitting their business with Hymn. Sculler is a house against combo though :)

Yeah, i know what you mean. Slightly off topic rant, but this always happens to black, while they print over the top cards for green and blue (recently, prime titan, vengevine, jace 2.0) they always manage to make black cards just good enough without it being "awesome". I don't know if i am the only one here, but i think the 2 lifeloss on thoughtseize is totally overdone and shouldn't be there :rolleyes: but yeah i am biased when it comes to black :tongue:

I have 2 duress in my SB aswell so that is around 10 disruption to hit important stuff with hymn and sculler, luckily not much tendrils decks here :)

[maximumcarnage]

I'm one of the guys who really likes the looks of Mirran Crusader in this deck. I can't shake this obsession with a doublestrike dude carrying an equipment. I was thinking something like this...

4x Scrubland
4x Marsh Flats
2x Verdant Catacombs
2x Windswept Heath
4x Wasteland
3x Swamp
2x Plains

4x Mother of Runes
4x Dark Confidant
4x Stonforge Mystic
4x Vampire Nighthawk
4x Mirran Crusader

4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Vindicate
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow

The more I think about it, I also seem to want to find a way to shove Sensei's Divining Top in here too.

Something like this maybe? -1 Mom, -1 Hymn, -1 Mystic; +3 SDT

I know a lot of you don't like Mirran Crusader, but any suggestions would be nice.

[InResponseForceOfWill]

Something like this maybe? -1 Mom, -1 Hymn, -1 Mystic; +3 SDT


Agreed. Or rather, -1 Mom, -1 Mystic, -1 Nighthawk. I think I'd rather garauntee a Hymn over a Nighthawk. Or even cut a land. I've found 20 is fine, especially since you'd be dropping 5cc or 6cc in cards for 3cc.

[TheSocMethod]

I'm one of the guys who really likes the looks of Mirran Crusader in this deck. I can't shake this obsession with a doublestrike dude carrying an equipment.

Obviously, nothing can be conclusively said without testing. That said, I think Crusader will turn out to be an example of a win-more card. Yes, four counters on Jitte or two triggers from the swords (especially SoFI) is extremely appealing, and sounds damn fun. However, if we have a stick equipped to a dude, chances are we're already winning, which is why I think the slot is better served by Tidehollow Sculler or more disruption. Which MUs do you think Mirran Crusader can improve?

Also, and this is less of an issue, but getting double white can sometimes be difficult, which is a big reason I stopped playing Elspeth. If you're running top though, that will smooth out your mana development... I personally wouldn't cut SFM. She's the best topdeck we have.

[maximumcarnage]

@ InRespnseForceOfWill-

Yeah Nighthawk could be a good choice to cut instead of Hymn, especially if we're adding another heavy-hitter finisher. However, I do often times find Nighthawk's lifelink to be HUGE mid to late game with all of the life I give away. But a second turn Hymn can be really crippling. I don't know. We'll just have to tinker around with it a little and see where it goes.

@TheSocMethod-

True. A lot of the time we are already ahead by the time we get a dude equipped. But not always. Crusader could end up being that eplosive game changer when we find ourselves in a hole.

As far as which MU's he could help improve, I think he could make us better in every MU we're already decent or competative in. And he may end up being just a win more, we'll just have to see. Like you said, we can't really know anything until we test him.

And I agree with you about the Mystic. We probably should try to find a better cut. Suggestion?

[Justin]

Obviously, nothing can be conclusively said without testing. That said, I think Crusader will turn out to be an example of a win-more card. Yes, four counters on Jitte or two triggers from the swords (especially SoFI) is extremely appealing, and sounds damn fun. However, if we have a stick equipped to a dude, chances are we're already winning, which is why I think the slot is better served by Tidehollow Sculler or more disruption. Which MUs do you think Mirran Crusader can improve?

Also, and this is less of an issue, but getting double white can sometimes be difficult, which is a big reason I stopped playing Elspeth. If you're running top though, that will smooth out your mana development... I personally wouldn't cut SFM. She's the best topdeck we have.

I have my doubts about Crusader, but it can improve matchups with decks that run black and green creatures. For example, you could be playing Zoo and facing down a big Goyf or Knight of the Reliquary. Crusader can carry equipment right by them, while a smaller creature might be too little to get past the big green creature, even with a +2/+2 bonus from a sword. I think the problem with Crusader is that he eats red and white removal spells, which are the most popular in the format. You spend three mana on a creature that dies to a one mana removal spell (StP, Bolt, etc.). Most of the other three drops in the format are big enough to be out of bolt range (Knight, Rhox War Monk), or give you some kind of benefit as they hit the battlefield (Vendilion Clique). However, there are certain circumstances, such as the one I described above, in which Crusader could be very helpful.

[maximumcarnage]

I'm not flaming anyone here, but I don't see how eating it to Swords and Bolt makes the Crusader worse than Nighthawk. Nighthawk does this as well.

I understand he doesn't have any of Nighthawk's abilities, which are all awesome, but he does have 2 relevant protections built-in and the doublestrike is nothing to sneeze at even when he's not equipped.

[Parax]

Why isn't Stillmoon Cavalier used at all? Pro White/Black is good. And i'm tired of "It dies to Bolt" cause everything else here does too technically.

If you equip a SoFI its basically untouchable. So why is it not used?

[DrNojman]

Stillmoon Cavalier isn't widely used because he's competing with Nighthawk for the 3-drop slot, who is certainly superior. Despite that he could be good in a black/white heavy meta.

[Angelfire]

My decklist post Mirrodin Besieged.

4x Scrubland
4x Marsh Flats
1x Bloodstained Mire
4x Wasteland
2x Swamp
2x Plains
1x Tomb of Urami : This has won me so many games. Synergy with Mox.
1x Karakas - Because I own one.
1x Urborg - Smooths out my Black, making Hymm easier to cast.
2x Mox Diamond - Moxes are underused in non-combo decks. I can easily recover the card loss and need the tempo boost.

4x Mother of Runes
4x Dark Confidant
4x Stonforge Mystic
3x Mirran Crusader - Vampire Nighthawk doesn't close the door. He gives your opponent too many topdeck opportunities (this has always been one of two huge problems for discard). Crusader is a 2 Swing clock with SoFI, Jitte, or a large Bonehoard. He is also deadly with no equipment and has protection from Goyf, black removal and other useful threats.

4x Inquisition of Kozilek - The life loss on Thoughtseize sucks and hurts tough match-ups for us.
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Gerrard's Verdict - Basically Hymm 5-7, but also is random life gain and in an emergency can hit myself.
4x Vindicate
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Bonehoard - With SFM you have a tutorable and uncounterable creature for very cheap. Not to mention it is potentially huge in size and even when killed stays on the field as a deadly piece of equipment. Great synergy with Discard.


My SB is a work in progress. I know there will be GY hate as a 4 of and probably Phyrexian Revoker x 4.

[maximumcarnage]

LOL! I enjoyed your expaination for why you run Karakas, Angelfire.

[Angelfire]

LOL! I enjoyed your expaination for why you run Karakas, Angelfire.

I was gonna wirte the whole "it deals with legendary creatures like Emrakul and Iona", but I figured that was better rationale :)

[boneclub24]

Does my deck count as Deadguy? Or is it more a just a generic BW Tempo deck?

Deck *
Land: 22
4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland
4 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath

Creatures: 16
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Mirran Crusader
3 Serra Avenger
2 Jotun Grunt

Spells: 22
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Anyway, I have been fiddling with the Crusader with good results. Not sure if he's better than a Nighthawk, though.

[Kolhell]

Anyone taken a look at leonin relic-warder yet?

[JadeOberg]

Anyone taken a look at leonin relic-warder yet?


I have and decided I can't play it in my build due to...

1. Double white mana, when I'm running 8 double blacks (Nighthawk and Hymn)
2. I'm not running vial. Which would make him really good.
3. He's a little reactionary where I'm trying to be proactive in build...I can see some people maybe taking out scullers for him..but scullers are way more proactive. Sure, both of these guys may miss on their abilities from time to time...but the new guy will miss way more. IMHO.

@ boneclub....yes Dead guy...pretty much anything midrangy aggro with black and white and dark confidant