[Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

[maximumcarnage]

I have been fiddling with the Crusader with good results. Not sure if he's better than a Nighthawk, though.

Glad to hear the Crusader has been working well. It seems like you could really maximize his potential in a build that uses Stoneforge Mystic to dig up equipments. Have you tried this? I would almost say Nighthawk seems strictly better without equipments but I haven't had a chance to test it. Just curious.

[warai]

After several games with this deck here is my thoughts:

Should we use Sensei's Divining Top?
Althought this card is an awesome mid/late game drop for this deck, it needs at least 2 slots
that this deck currently can't afford. Perhaps it goes against the deck synnergy of putting pressure with
equiped utility creatures.

Why Aether Vial?
I think this is almost a meta decision. This card is great in a Counterbalance meta.
Also, it allows to put pressure on the adversary allowing us to drop creatures and cast disruption spells.

Serra Avenger vs Vampire Nighthawk?
Avenger : A body, fly ability, vigilance. Enters the battefield quickly with vial.
V.Nighthawk: Lifelink and deathtouch plus fly gives an enormously versatility.
In my opinion Vampire wins.

4 Stoneforge Mystic vs 3 Stoneforge Mystic?
With the card advange generated by Mystic I would say 4. I would only use 3 if there's a need to add another
destruction spell (+1 Vindicate or +1 Go for the Throat/Edict).

Mirran Crusader?
If your meta is full of Rock/Dark Horizons sure, add it to your sideboard.

Go for the throat vs Diabolic Edict?
There aren't many creatures currently playing in legacy with shroud/indestructible.
I would say Go for the Throat is an auto include (+2 Go for the Throat -2 Diabolic Edict).


Worst matchups?
Every deck that uses Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives or Counterbalance is a serious threat.
4 Pithing Needle sideboard is essential. Another solution can be adding 2 Inquisition of Kozilek main deck.

[maximumcarnage]

@ warai-

IMO, yes to SDT. For me, it's just too powerful with Bob not to be included.

Are you asking why not Aether Vial? I just don't know where we'd make room for it. All of our other card choices just seem better.

I think you're right about Nighthawk over Serra Avenger. The lifelink is huge with all of the fetching, Thoughtseizeing, and peeling we do with Bob.

I'd say 4 Mystics. I'm now convinced that it's about the best top deck we can see.

You may end up being right about the Crusader. But we haven't had enough of a chance to test him yet to definitively say whether or not he's worth it.

Go for the Throat vs. Diabolic Edict? Why run either when we already have StP, Vinicate, and can snag creatures out of hands with Thoughtseize and Hymn? If you're gonna run one though I'm a fan of Go for the Throat.

[blue_mage]

Hi guys kindly comment on the list I'm planning on testing. My build centers on playing phyrexian crusader. I original was testing it on a BG shell. It was doing well because i could play it on turn one via dark ritual. It was good agaisnt big zoo and bant decks. But was not that satisfied so I'm planning on testing it on a BW shell since it has better probability of attaching an equipment to phyrexian crusader.





20 lands

4 Marsh flats

4 Scrubs

2 Plains

4 Swamp

4 Wasteland

1 Urborg

1 Karakas



22 Creature

4 Confidant

4 Mother of Runes

4 Phyrexian Crusader

4 Vampire Nighthawk

3 Stone Forge

3 Gatekeeper of malakir


18 Spell

1 Sofi

1 Sols

1 Jitte

4 STP

3 Totsieze of kozilek

4 thoughtsieze

4 Vindicate

[Angelfire]

Running Phyrexian Crusader is a horrible strategy unless you plan on dealing nearly 100% of your damage with Infect creatures. Nighthawk, Bob, SFM and Mom very often will deal damage that is completely worthless or more likely Phyrexian Crusader will get some number of poison counters on your opponent and then you will lose the game.

Also, no Hymm to Tourach?

[CorpT]

This is the list I am currently running. It is basically Deadgy + Goyf. It has been very solid for me in testing and weekly tournaments.

3 Mother of Runes
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Serra Avenger
4 Tidehollow Sculler

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Aether Vial
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
4 Scrubland
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
4 Engineered Plague
4 Path to Exile
2 Duress
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Krosan Grip
1 Mother of Runes

Some card choice explanations:

Knight of the Reliquary, Vampire Nighthawk, etc... were intentionally left off in favor of 2 drops to make Vial more reliable. Nighthawk is probably better than Serra Avenger, but having to take a Vial to 3 and limiting it's use is just not worth it. That being said, I believe that some form of flying is crucial. Squadron Hawk is also being considered and tested.

Sword package: SoFaI has been underperforming for us. If we want to kill creatures, Jitte is better. If we want protection from removal, SoLaS is better. SoFaF is being tested. The idea is Pro-Goyf and untapping to move equipment around is a good thing. This is still being tested as the overlap of Pro-Black is not ideal. SoLaS has been very solid, but it may be that a SoFaI/SoFaF split is correct to cover the most colors. However, losing Pro-White would not be ideal either. I doubt 4 is the correct number of equipment, but that is possible.

3/1 Mother of Runes split. Mom has been amazing in lots of MUs and abysmal in others. This led us to putting one in the board for creature based MUs, but only running 3 for combo and control MUs. It's not terrible against control, but certainly not optimal.

I believe that the inclusion of Goyf is worth it. The mana is not signifcantly impacted as I can run a full set of Wastelands without having mana issues. Vial is a tremendous help here. Green also open you up to good sideboard cards like Teeg and Grip.

Sculler: Just amazing. The ability to curve out with Thoughtseizes into Scullers into equipment has been great.

The sideboard likely needs some work. Teeg, Grip and Plague have all proved very valuable in my local meta. Path is a nod to some of the local Affinity decks that require lots of removal. Duress has been solid, but perhaps IoK would be good too.

[warai]

This is the list I am currently running. It is basically Deadgy + Goyf. It has been very solid for me in testing and weekly tournaments.

3 Mother of Runes
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Serra Avenger
4 Tidehollow Sculler

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Aether Vial
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
4 Scrubland
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
4 Engineered Plague
4 Path to Exile
2 Duress
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Krosan Grip
1 Mother of Runes

Some card choice explanations:

Knight of the Reliquary, Vampire Nighthawk, etc... were intentionally left off in favor of 2 drops to make Vial more reliable. Nighthawk is probably better than Serra Avenger, but having to take a Vial to 3 and limiting it's use is just not worth it. That being said, I believe that some form of flying is crucial. Squadron Hawk is also being considered and tested.

Sword package: SoFaI has been underperforming for us. If we want to kill creatures, Jitte is better. If we want protection from removal, SoLaS is better. SoFaF is being tested. The idea is Pro-Goyf and untapping to move equipment around is a good thing. This is still being tested as the overlap of Pro-Black is not ideal. SoLaS has been very solid, but it may be that a SoFaI/SoFaF split is correct to cover the most colors. However, losing Pro-White would not be ideal either. I doubt 4 is the correct number of equipment, but that is possible.

3/1 Mother of Runes split. Mom has been amazing in lots of MUs and abysmal in others. This led us to putting one in the board for creature based MUs, but only running 3 for combo and control MUs. It's not terrible against control, but certainly not optimal.

I believe that the inclusion of Goyf is worth it. The mana is not signifcantly impacted as I can run a full set of Wastelands without having mana issues. Vial is a tremendous help here. Green also open you up to good sideboard cards like Teeg and Grip.

Sculler: Just amazing. The ability to curve out with Thoughtseizes into Scullers into equipment has been great.

The sideboard likely needs some work. Teeg, Grip and Plague have all proved very valuable in my local meta. Path is a nod to some of the local Affinity decks that require lots of removal. Duress has been solid, but perhaps IoK would be good too.

I like your list but have some questions in my mind:

1 - Why no Sword of Fire and Ice main deck?
2 - I suppose you use Vial as a main answer to Countertop decks. But why no Pithing Needle SB?
3 - Adding Tarmogoyf have given you instability with the green mana (wastelanded)?
4 - You only have 4 spells of creature spot removal Main Deck, is it enough for you?

[CorpT]

I like your list but have some questions in my mind:

1 - Why no Sword of Fire and Ice main deck?
2 - I suppose you use Vial as a main answer to Countertop decks. But why no Pithing Needle SB?
3 - Adding Tarmogoyf have given you instability with the green mana (wastelanded)?
4 - You only have 4 spells of creature spot removal Main Deck, is it enough for you?

The Sword split is what we're struggling with most right now. 4 might even be the right number just so you always have the right sword for the right situation. All of them have their benefits and limitations.

The sideboard is still fairly up in the air right now. In all likelihood, Needle will go in. We were discussing that last night. The deck is better against CB than I would have thought though. Significant disruption and Vial help a lot.

So far, there has been only one situation where I had to mulligan a hand I wanted to keep but couldn't because of mana. It was a Savannah, Plains, Wasteland hand with Black spells. In general, the mana has not been an issue at all. Vial helps a ton.

It hasn't been an issue so far. Even against creature rush decks like Goblins or Affinity. The combination of Mother, Swords, Mystic and Equipment go a long way to handling creatures. An active Jitte is usually game against those decks.

[makochman]

This is the list I am currently running. It is basically Deadgy + Goyf. It has been very solid for me in testing and weekly tournaments.


IMO there should Vindicates in the mainboard. Without them, a lot of stuff is very difficult to deal with once it hits the table. I also believe that 4 StP + 4 PtE, and 4 Thoughtseize + 2 Iok + 4 Sculler + 2 Duress is slightly excessive.

The sideboard could probably use some gravehate, unless you know it's not needed in your metagame.

[CorpT]

IMO there should Vindicates in the mainboard. Without them, a lot of stuff is very difficult to deal with once it hits the table. I also believe that 4 StP + 4 PtE, and 4 Thoughtseize + 2 Iok + 4 Sculler + 2 Duress is slightly excessive.

The sideboard could probably use some gravehate, unless you know it's not needed in your metagame.

What is it you need to kill with Vindicate?

[Solar Ice]

What is it you need to kill with Vindicate?

Stuff that come to mind : Jace, Counterbalance, Opposing Equipment, Moat, Humility.
Vindicate is almost never a useless card in this deck.

[CorpT]

Stuff that come to mind : Jace, Counterbalance, Opposing Equipment, Moat, Humility.
Vindicate is almost never a useless card in this deck.

Just because it isn't useless doesn't mean it should be run. 3 CMC is a lot in a deck that wants to play out a lot of disruption and creatures as well as equip creatures. Jace is fairly easily dealt with through attacks. Counterbalance can be dealt with with Vial. Moat and Humility are pretty rarely run.

I understand that there are targets for Vindicate. I don't think that they necessarily require Vindicate to be run to be dealt with.

So, what is it you need to kill with Vindicate?

[makochman]

What is it you need to kill with Vindicate?

EVERYTHING.

OK, this is a weird question because a lot of decks have good Vindicate targets, many of which are difficult to deal with otherwise. Turn 1-2 discard can of course prevent problematic stuff from hitting the table, but something is bound to get through. Also discard can be a bad topdeck later on, while Vindicate is almost always relevant.

There's also Maelstrom Pulse, which is very good, except when you want to kill an opponent's Tarmogoyf without also killing your own.

@Keiichi

I understand what CorpT is asking... The answer is that everything can be dealt with in other ways, but they're much less versatile, so why bother when you can have Vindicate. It shines in almost every matchup. I don't really see much point in discussing the usefulness of Vindicate any further, since I am certain it is going to devolve into "You can kill Jace by attacking with Mother of Runes!" or "Block KotR 5 times with Phyrexian Crusader and it will die!"

[Keiichi]

EVERYTHING.

OK, this is a weird question because a lot of decks have good Vindicate targets, many of which are difficult to deal with otherwise. Turn 1-2 discard can of course prevent problematic stuff from hitting the table, but something is bound to get through. Also discard can be a bad topdeck later on, while Vindicate is almost always relevant.

There's also Maelstrom Pulse, which is very good, except when you want to kill an opponent's Tarmogoyf without also killing your own.

He's not asking what Vindicate is ABLE to kill. He's asking: What will you see across the table that can't be dealt with given what's in his deck, but that MUST be dealt with? "What makes Vindicate a necessary inclusion?", not "What is Vindicate able to kill?".

[warai]

You don't need to use Vindicate since you have very problematic creatures for your opponent to deal with(Tarmogoyf, equipped big guy). Vindicate is at the top of the curve in this deck and is supposed to help you win the match (clearing the way in order for your creatures pass and give the necessary damage). You have better solutions. Moat/Enchantress is a small percentage of the legacy metagame.

The only good thing about Vindicate is the versatility this card gives you. For example, disturbing your opponent manabase. But it is only an alternative solution since you want to disrupt your opponents hand and kill him.

[Nidd]

He's not asking what Vindicate is ABLE to kill. He's asking: What will you see across the table that can't be dealt with given what's in his deck, but that MUST be dealt with? "What makes Vindicate a necessary inclusion?", not "What is Vindicate able to kill?".
Basics.
Jace.
Counterbalance.
Creatures.

In short, permanents that are in your way to beer, booty and bounty.

[CorpT]

Basics.
Jace.
Counterbalance.
Creatures.

In short, permanents that are in your way to beer, booty and bounty.

So I guess we should run force of will as well because there are some spells that get in the way, right?

[Nidd]

So I guess we should run force of will as well because there are some spells that get in the way, right?
Do you suggest to ignore the stuff I mentioned or do you suggest to run narrow hate against it?

[Qweerios]

So I guess we should run force of will as well because there are some spells that get in the way, right?

Most definitely, assuming that force of will card you speak of is black/white.

[maximumcarnage]

Vindicate is far too versatile not to be included, IMO.

The only time I'm ever unhappy to see Vindicate is when I'm sitting at 3 life and peel it with Bob. Which is not very often.

CorpT, you seem pretty against it. Have you tried it?

[CorpT]

Vindicate is far too versatile not to be included, IMO.

The only time I'm ever unhappy to see Vindicate is when I'm sitting at 3 life and peel it with Bob. Which is not very often.

CorpT, you seem pretty against it. Have you tried it?

I'm not dead set against it, but in all the games I've played the only time I ever wanted it once when I had sided out my removal and flyers and my opponent sided in predator that I didn't expect. Battled through jace, counter balance, creatures, land, and moat. Put something in vindicate's place and see if you miss it. No one denies it's versatility. I just don't think it is needed.

[Leto]

Is it not one of Deadguy's strongest points, that its so flexible, that you play Cards that have more than one function?

I love my Vindicate's, cause they grant me the possibility to react game 1 on nearly everything my opponent put against me (Utility-Lands, Planeswalker, Enchantments, things that black traditionally can't handle)

[Namida]

I would argue that playing flexible cards is more of a tradeoff because your deck sacrifices focus, speed, and power for your flexible cards. So, concerning Vindicate, the question becomes "Is the tradeoff he makes by not playing Vindicate an equivalent one? Is he gaining something from not playing Vindicate?" From his replies, I'd definitely say yes. According to him, where he plays, he doesn't need to be reactive in game 1 because his deck can handle anything it encounters out of the decks he normally plays against. Honestly, I love Vindicate, but being proactive and killing your opponent with big creatures seems so much better than having Vindicates when the cards you have no other way of handling are not played.

CorpT, if you were taking this to a big tournament, would you play Vindicates?

[maximumcarnage]

I would argue that playing flexible cards is more of a tradeoff because your deck sacrifices focus, speed, and power for your flexible cards. So, concerning Vindicate, the question becomes "Is the tradeoff he makes by not playing Vindicate an equivalent one? Is he gaining something from not playing Vindicate?" From his replies, I'd definitely say yes. According to him, where he plays, he doesn't need to be reactive in game 1 because his deck can handle anything it encounters out of the decks he normally plays against. Honestly, I love Vindicate, but being proactive and killing your opponent with big creatures seems so much better than having Vindicates when the cards you have no other way of handling are not played.

CorpT, if you were taking this to a big tournament, would you play Vindicates?

Ok, that's fine. If your local place is such that you don't need Vindicate and you become more of a threat by running something else in its place, great.

But that's a great question you posed at the end there. I think if you're going to a large, competative tournament where you're likely to run into a wide range of different stuff, I don't know that you can afford to leave behind the versatility that Vindicate provides.

[maximumcarnage]

I love my Vindicate's, cause they grant me the possibility to react game 1 on nearly everything my opponent put against me (Utility-Lands, Planeswalker, Enchantments, things that black traditionally can't handle)

Exactly.

[DrNojman]

Come on guys, get serious. Vindicate is one of the main reasons for moving from Suicide Black/MBA to Deadguy, and the only (playable) spell in the game that can hit all types of permanents.

[Namida]

But that's a great question you posed at the end there. I think if you're going to a large, competative tournament where you're likely to run into a wide range of different stuff, I don't know that you can afford to leave behind the versatility that Vindicate provides.

Why is the versatility that Vindicate provides necessary for this deck? For instance: Would Merfolk play Vindicate if it could? Would Goblins? Zoo? Bant? Some of the answers there are obvious, yes. But all of those decks are capable of performing without Vindicate. So, is it that the aforementioned decks all have something that this deck lacks which needs to be shored up by Vindicate?

[CorpT]

I don't see any reason to use Vindicates in a larger tournament, no.

I really think people need to try it without them. Yes, they are flexible. Yes, you can kill anything with them. Yes, they're the greatest spell ever. But replace them with something else for some games. Try IoK if you're not running a lot of discard. Run Tarmogoyf if you are. See if you miss them. It's very easy to tell if you want Vindicate when you don't have them, but when you have them in your hand, it's hard to know if you need them. If you're playing against a Jace, if you have a Vindicate, you're probably going to use it to blow up Jace. But could you attack Jace as well? Could you ignore Jace and just kill your opponent? If you don't have Vindicate in your deck, you'll probably figure out a way to win without it. Or maybe you stripped it from their hand already because you're playing more disruption now. Or maybe they don't get a chance to play it because you've applied more pressure now.

Or everyone could just say that it's flexible in a few more posts.

[DrNojman]

Please, stop trolling. If you really think Vindicate isn't needed in this type of deck, maybe you should think about quitting Magic and go play Pokemon. The arguments that Merfolk, Goblins, Bant, Zoo and so on wouldn't play Vindicate if they could are the biggest pile of nonsense I have read lately. They obviously wouldn't run it cause they have a different play style and strategy. Or am I missing something and Deadguy has started playing Lords, countermagic, big creatures and burn?

[Bignasty197]

If you don't have Vindicate in your deck, you'll probably figure out a way to win without it.

What if they drop a Moat or Ensnaring Bridge on you? You probably won't win after that. Vindicate is a necessary card for this archetype and removing it would be a huge mistake.

[CorpT]

What if they drop a Moat or Ensnaring Bridge on you? You probably won't win after that. Vindicate is a necessary card for this archetype and removing it would be a huge mistake.

How many times has that happened to you? And you do play fliers to get around Moat. It's real easy to come up with all sorts of scenarios where your opponent has a Helix Pinnacle in play with 100 counters on it and is going to win during his upkeep unless you draw your Vindicate, but really... how often are you playing against Ensnaring Bridge?

[Bignasty197]

Not the point. Vindicate is such a versatile card that you cannot afford to cut it.

[CorpT]

Not the point. Vindicate is such a versatile card that you cannot afford to cut it.

Got it. Versatility >>>>>>>>> everything. Why not run Desert Twister too? It could be Vindicate 5-8.

It doesn't matter that you're planning on versatility for decks you've never played against, versatility is the most important thing there is.

It doesn't matter that you're playing an aggro deck and not a control deck, because versatility is the more important thing.

Good luck guys. I'm out. Enjoy your versatility.

[TossUsToLions]

Please, stop trolling. If you really think Vindicate isn't needed in this type of deck, maybe you should think about quitting Magic and go play Pokemon. The arguments that Merfolk, Goblins, Bant, Zoo and so on wouldn't play Vindicate if they could are the biggest pile of nonsense I have read lately. They obviously wouldn't run it cause they have a different play style and strategy. Or am I missing something and Deadguy has started playing Lords, countermagic, big creatures and burn?

He's not trolling, nor should he quit Magic. I'm playing a B/W tempo style deck and I'm not running Vindicate either. It's a great card, but in some builds it is just too slow, especially for a deck that relies on tempo to win. I'd rather add more removal, discard, or threats than a 3-cc sorcery

[Solar Ice]

Got it. Versatility >>>>>>>>> everything. Why not run Desert Twister too? It could be Vindicate 5-8.

It doesn't matter that you're planning on versatility for decks you've never played against, versatility is the most important thing there is.

It doesn't matter that you're playing an aggro deck and not a control deck, because versatility is the more important thing.

Good luck guys. I'm out. Enjoy your versatility.

What is wrong wth versatility? Did you never get into a situation where an opponent dropped something like Solitary confinement or Moat/Bridge (not to mention a random topdecked Goyf) with lethal (or close to it) on your side of the table? That Vindicate in your hand would/could have won you the game, but instead you are left staring at the IoK in your hand. Do you really not feel it's important to have answers to potentially crippling stuff, even in G1? Chalice @ 1, especially T1 on the draw, can be very painful and you can't play a single CMC 1 spell the entire game because you don't have arifact destruction in the entire deck. No way to remove a resolved Cranial Plating? Uphill battle for the rest of the game.

Sure, you can argue that you can fly over Moat/attack Jace for instance but don't forget that the opponent is playing removal, or at least a way deal with creatures most of the time, so when that Serra Avenger/Nighthawk that you are relying on suddenly meets a Swords/PtE/GftT/Bolt, your path to victory is shut down. A resolved Vindicate would have allowed you to go on as you were.

Imho, Vindicate is a very important card in this deck and should not get cut. Versatility is also extremely important for a successfull deck.

[rogue.nine]

Imho, Vindicate is a very important card in this deck and should not get cut. Versatility is also extremely important for a successfull deck.

I have to agree with his viewpoint here.

He's not saying don't ever play vindicate because its a weak card. He's saying vindicate is one of those cards that needs to be evaluated in context (like most cards). Is it worth it "being prepared", being "versatile" to win that 1/100 match against random hoser card like moat etc. Or would you rather have streamlined but less flexible solutions because the majority of the games that vindicate would have been better off as spell x? I hate to say it but: "its a meta call" as in evaluate what vindicate does for you in the matchups you play and decide if its worth it. Most of you seem to think so yes and thats fine, its an awesome card but you can't treat it like some sacred cow that defines the deck and can never ever ever be cut because its "flexible".

A card having a subjective attribute isn't an argument. Saying that it fulfills a specific function against the matchups you play that another card does not is an arguement.

Also lots of successful decks are not versatile. Merfolk and storm combo off the top of my head are pretty linear and one dimensional but obviously decks to beat. Goblins, from my laymens perspective, is a powerful card advantage deck but doesn't really appear all that versatile at first glance. Zoo as well. Iuno >.>

[Leto]

it depends not only on your opponent but on your own deck and playstyle if Vindicate shines, or not.

My deck for instance is pretty reactive, slow and tries to control and exhaust my opponent. When he's out of gas, I finish him off with equipped creatures, Else... In my Gameplan Vindicate is really important to shut of things like Vial, Else, Bitterblossom... that helps my Opponent to stay in the game. Randomscrew here and there included ;)


If you are aiming for fast kill, Vindicate is maybe not the way to go (dunno cause I don't play like that^^)

[Nidd]

Is a swiss army knife a tool that demands a specific situation to be of use?

I don't think so, that's why I think Vindicate definitely has to be played - at least as a 2-of. I mean, it ALWAYS has targets and it adds a big amount of flexibility to the deck, giving it outs to every permanent your opponent manages to play.

[Namida]

Do decks like this perform so poorly in general that Vindicate is essential to the deck's game plan? I don't know about you guys, but for me, it's just an overcosted creature removal spell that often is too expensive to help me, and rarely is the only card I could've played to save me.


Is a swiss army knife a tool that demands a specific situation to be of use?

When it costs more than every proactive spell in your deck, I would think it requires the specific situation of "giving an out to a certain (heavily played) permanent the deck would otherwise not be able to deal with" to warrant inclusion. People wouldn't play Force of Will if it actually cost five mana, for example. Another example: Do TES decks play Chain of Vapor in the maindeck? Playing cards that don't actively win you the game slow you down unless you know for a fact that you will encounter something that requires interaction from your end. Look at the deck in question that we're debating the merits of playing Vindicate in. The only person here who I would wager has even tried the deck out said himself that he only ever needed Vindicate as a crutch for his shoddy sideboarding. Building your deck to answer everything makes it slow, and his deck was supposed to actually capitalize on disrupting the opponent with better creatures and more speed from Aether Vial. When he asked why he needed to play Vindicate, he was confronted with nothing but "It does everything" responses, and got frustrated and left because no one was willing to give an example of why one needs a card that "does everything" when it's higher on the curve in your deck than every other card in the deck.

The only good argument for why Vindicate is vital are problem permanents that prevent you from killing your opponent (Not Counterbalance, but Solitary Confinement, Moat, etc). The deck plays proactive disruption, so you are not even dead in the water to your opponent having these cards. The creator of the deck has a knowledge of his metagame that makes him comfortable with conceding to one of those cards resolving, because a very marginal amount of the people in his meta would ever even have those cards. I would even wager that the metagame in a big tournament would be similar to such an extent that my deck would be objectively worse for playing this card in games where my opponent did not resolve a Moat. I would not slow my deck down with this card if I built my deck to be fast. And if you really fear that you'd play against those decks, there's always the sideboard. And even then I think I'd rather play Qasali Pridemage or something.

But in the end, I concede that I might just be running my mouth because CorpT's deck may not exactly be Deadguy. So, I ask: What is the goal of Deadguy? Is the goal to be as versatile as possible? Is resolving Vindicate how the deck wins its games? Is the aim of a Deadguy deck different than the goal of CorpT's deck? If you want to be able to deal with everything, why are you trying to play an aggro deck? (Is this deck an aggro deck?)

[Angelfire]

I look at Vindicate as a way to Stabalize the board or answer threats and if that doesn't need to be a done, as a solid way to disrupt my opponent (ussually blasting a Land). It also gives you the flexibility and outs to not scoop to almost any deck game 1 and a way to deal with everything from problematic Enchantments, Artifactss/Equipment and Planeswalkers.

However, this Vindicate argue seems to be going nowhere. If someone doesn't want to play Vindicate, its their loss. I already think calling this deck Deadguy without running Sinkhole is a stretch. If you take out Sinkhole it is definitely a whole nother thing. A deck is not the same as another one if card choices vary greatly and/or the "path to victory" has changed a lot (and it has).

[DrNojman]

It is clear that neither of us isn't near of an expert like you, but doesn't TES run sumtnih' like Burning Wish that can grab win conditions and things like Shattering Spree, Deathmark, Eye of Nowhere, and so on? Pretty versatile, doncha think? Besides that, I think it's really dumb to compare TES to Deadguy..
Also, care to explain how a Counterbalance doesn't stop you from winning? If they have a Daze in the top 3 cards, you can't really cast much, can you?

On Vindicate, there are certain situations where they don't do much, and where we board them out, like against tribal aggro you are better off with plagues, against Threshold you'd rather see Gatekeeper of Malakir od Diabolic edict, against Belcher... If your metagame consists of Elves, Goblins, Threshold and so on, then you're better off with Smother, but against anything else Vindicate shines.

[Namida]

I look at Vindicate as a way to Stabalize the board or answer threats and if that doesn't need to be a done, as a solid way to disrupt my opponent (ussually blasting a Land). It also gives you the flexibility and outs to not scoop to almost any deck game 1 and a way to deal with everything from problematic Enchantments, Artifactss/Equipment and Planeswalkers.

However, this Vindicate argue seems to be going nowhere. If someone doesn't want to play Vindicate, its their loss. I already think calling this deck Deadguy without running Sinkhole is a stretch. If you take out Sinkhole it is definitely a whole nother thing. A deck is not the same as another one if card choices vary greatly and/or the "path to victory" has changed a lot (and it has).

Is it a mistake then, to assume that the deck can be built with a threat density that makes you the person that needs to be answered instead of the other way around? Can we build this so that we have a enough raw power that we don't require a card to stabilize the board? Is attempting to go this course a futile effort? Is it straying too far from what Deadguy is supposed to do? What was the path to victory before, and how has it changed?


It is clear that neither of us isn't near of an expert like you, but doesn't TES run sumtnih' like Burning Wish that can grab win conditions and things like Shattering Spree, Deathmark, Eye of Nowhere, and so on? Pretty versatile, doncha think? Besides that, I think it's really dumb to compare TES to Deadguy..
Also, care to explain how a Counterbalance doesn't stop you from winning? If they have a Daze in the top 3 cards, you can't really cast much, can you?

On Vindicate, there are certain situations where they don't do much, and where we board them out, like against tribal aggro you are better off with plagues, against Threshold you'd rather see Gatekeeper of Malakir od Diabolic edict, against Belcher... If your metagame consists of Elves, Goblins, Threshold and so on, then you're better off with Smother, but against anything else Vindicate shines.

There's no need to try to insult me, is there? I'm clearly not an expert; I'm not making myself out to be an expert. I'm merely explaining my opinion, and attempting to ask questions to facilitate a conversation that is more complex than the shouting match that was ensuing prior. I'm literally so far from being an expert that I'm literally begging you to answer my questions so I can understand where you're coming from. I'm not entirely sold on cutting Vindicate either, but before he got all pissed off and left, CorpT made a more compelling argument for trying it his way than others did by basically repeating the text of the card over and over again and flipping out, acting like people who are willing to try the deck without Vindicate are illiterate or something.

Maybe my comparison between TES and Deadguy was dumb. Keep in mind that I just asked you what Deadguy is supposed to be doing. Please answer that so that I may have a better idea of why my comparison was dumb to you. Until then, however...I don't think my comparison is completely dumb in the sense that I'm not comparing the decks card for card and acting like they try to win the exactly same way. I'm comparing the two decks in the sense that I assume they both aim to win, and as a result should have more cards that make you win instead of help you not lose. In this way, I was hoping to make the train of thought more understandable, that you don't want your deck filled with reactive cards just because they're versatile. TES plays Burning Wish. Yes, you're right, it's versatile. I suppose my analogy fell short if all you see is that Burning Wish exists and is versatile. However, I'd like to point out that Burning Wish is played because it is four cards that when played will cause you to win--not because it is four cards in your deck that are devoted to killing hatebears and Trinispheres. It'd still be a good card for the deck if it couldn't grab Tendrils or Empty the Warrens, but it probably wouldn't be in the main deck.

Counterbalance doesn't stop you from winning if you're already ahead, if you've resolved an Aether Vial, or it's in your opponent's graveyard because you made your opponent discard it. The point is that your opponent can't just drop Counterbalance and go "Oh you lose no matter what else is going on because *this* is in play." You can fight though a Counterbalance. You still have to fight through a Counterbalance if you have Vindicate in your deck, too, so I'm afraid that I don't understand what your point was as it concerns the inclusion of Vindicate.

I'm also not understanding how Vindicate shines against the "everything else" you mentioned. How does Vindicate "shine" against these decks more so than Thoughseize or creatures would? How big of a percentage is the "everything else" to warrant inclusion over all of the other spells that are better against the decks you outlined Vindicate being bad against?

[Rebirth]

Unnecessarily rude remark removed. Just because you disagree with someone doesn't mean they're stupid. Keep it civil. - zilla

Cutting Vindicate? wow... I'll cut vindicate when Merfolks cut FoW :cool:

Anyway, are there people who don't waste their time with trolling and coming up with stupid ideas (aka CorpT) and do something productive?

I think we should be talking about Mirran Crusader, Phyrexian Crusader and Vampire Nighthawk.

Phyrexian Crusader survives 90% of the removal spells out there, though when you have beaten your opponent to low live with other creatures it can be worse than a nighthawk or mirran crusader.

Mirran Crusader eats bolt, chain, helix, path and swords like nighthawk and has no lifegain, though it is a 2 turn clock with equipment attached to it and it dodges goyfs etc.

Nighthawk still overal strong and balanced.

[Tao]

I am sure CorpT was not trolling. His arguments against Vindicate in his list were good. One problem is that his list is not Deadguy Ale but most of the lists aren't anymore. In a Hymn to Tourach/Sinkhole/ style with tons of disruption and only a few synergetic but weak win conditions deck you certainly want 3-4 Vindicate, there is no doubt.
It functioned as flexible removal for whatever your opponent had left after the onslaught of Discard and LD was over. You could get the Vial or Goyf while Confidant drew you cards and the LD part was obviously more often useful when backed up by Hymn and Sinkhole.

But as soon as you move to a more creature based list with Mother of Runes, Stoneforge Mystic or similar creatures like most people seem to be doing it is a good idea to test if Vindicate is still needed. The LD part is obviously worse once you remove the other LD spells from your deck and it is certainly not obvious that the versatility is worth enough to pay 2 more Mana if you use it as an additional StoP ~90% of the time anyway.

His list actually looks good. I don't think Tidehollow Sculler is good enough though. In my previous testing with that card it is almost never a 2 for 1 because it can't fight. It is usually just a 2 Mana Thoughtseize that more often than not can be undone by Removal if he chooses so. Tarmogoyf, Rhox War Monk, Nacatl, Qasali Pridemage, Lavamancer, Silvergill Adept, Mishra's Factory, Trygon Predator, Tin Street Hooligan, something is way too often preventing it from doing what you want him to do.

[CorpT]

His list actually looks good. I don't think Tidehollow Sculler is good enough though. In my previous testing with that card it is almost never a 2 for 1 because it can't fight. It is usually just a 2 Mana Thoughtseize that more often than not can be undone by Removal if he chooses so. Tarmogoyf, Rhox War Monk, Nacatl, Qasali Pridemage, Lavamancer, Silvergill Adept, Mishra's Factory, Trygon Predator, Tin Street Hooligan, something is way too often preventing it from doing what you want him to do.

Sculler is very good. It does sit back and do not much a lot of the time, but the ability to flash it in during a players Draw step is very powerful. It works well in two ways against decks though:

Against aggro creature decks with removal: You can take their creatures to slow down their progress and leave removal in their hand. This forces them to use their removal on it instead of Goyfs or Bobs. Not only are you slowing them down, but they're using removal on one of your weaker creatures.

Against control decks, you get to take their removal and make all of your creatures better. Or you can take their Jace or something, but you're going to take their removal a lot of the time.

Against combo, it's just another thoughtseize that gets to attack. That's pretty sweet.

I was really surprised how well Sculler played out. But that's when you back him up with Thoughtseize and IoK and curve into him beautifully.

[makochman]

Sculler is very good.


There is a caveat though: he really needs to be in a list with Vial. But yes.

Many people are suggesting Phyrexian Crusader. Consider this: most of the time, he's a wall. A resilient wall, certainly, but all too many decks have ways of dealing with it, or attacking past it. Consider this also: so far we've had four Swords giving protections from enemy colors: Swords of Light and Shadow (WB), Fire and Ice (RU), Body and Mind (UG) and Feast and Famine (GB). A new Sword is bound to come out in the next set (whatever it's called) to complete the cycle, one that will give protection from white and red. Do you really want to experiment with Phyrexian Crusader as a stopgap measure, when it's almost certain a far superior solution will become available in a few months?

[eternaldarkness]

Whenever I play B/W Deadguy, I always use 4 Vindicates. But after reading through the past few posts, I have been reconsidering whether Vindicate is truly needed. Yes its flexible, but honestly most of the time against Zoo and Tribal, I've just been using it as a 3cc spot removal for creatures...which is far from efficient. People saying that it can hit problematic stuff like Moat and Humilty, well you don't see those cards that often nowadays leading me to think that Vindicate is better used in the sideboard.

The pro-Vindicate stance is certainly not helped by the flippant attitude over anti-Vindicate arguments. Most of the proponents of cutting Vindicate give well-reasoned thoughts behind the change while most of the pro-Vindicate posters are borderline flaming. People are treating Vindicate like it's a sacred cow and it's getting annoying. I personally love Vindicate and, like I said, I have always played this deck with Vindicate but in this aggro meta I too am beginning to question if 3cc removal is the optimal choice.

[Justin]

Well said. Also, the choice is not necessarily between four Vindicate and zero Vindicate, which is how it's being framed on this thread. You could cut Vindicate, say down to two, and use those free slots to improve your deck. This way, your hand won't get clogged up with a bunch of 3cc removal spells, but you will still have "outs" in your deck if you need to kill Moat of Humility, etc.

[FieryBalrog]

Vindicate is good for the same reason FoW is: it serves as a maindeck "out" to many things which are otherwise huge problems. I agree that it might not be needed as a 4-of in an aggro-controlish deck like Deadguy- the question of whether you're running Vial or not also changes things, although maybe we don't want to call it Deadguy if it is running Vial. More of a semantic issue.

However Vindicate is more relevant than ever with the rise of Jace 2.0 decks, and I think running 2 maindeck is still a good idea. There's also an interesting choice of adding Mangara with Vial and moving towards a D&T shell, which definitely allows you to cut Vindicate maindeck.

[maximumcarnage]

I've been able to do some testing, although not that extensive yet, with a 3-3 split between Mirran Crusader and Nighthawk.

So far Nighthawk seems better overall. The Crusader is sooo explosive when equipped, but Nighthawk is more dependable and has been better when not carrying a stick.

The heaviest testing so far has been against Goblins, which has been about 50-50. I think Nighthawk as a 4-of is where I want to be in this match-up. However, Crusader did turn the tide for me in one game where I started out in a huge hole. Double trigger on SoFaI spells disaster for Gobs.

Anyone else done any testing with this?

[Uly Van Hammer]

I thought I'd throw in my 2c on this vindicate discussion. The cards a catch-22. I almost always side them out game 2 for my hate cards. The only match-up I dont side them out is against Counter Top (I take out bobs and put in tombstalkers). Let's look at your average match ups. N.O. Decks. You will be taking these out for Perish every time. TES... What the hell are you going to Vindicate, I take it out for Extripate (it's not the strongest card in this match, but it's slightly better than vindicate here). Ichorid... out for Extripate. Merfolk/Goblins, out for either STP or plagues.

I guess what I am saying is that it's a very good rounded card to have game 1 where it's going to be, at very least, decent. But depending on your board, you will replace it with much more focused cards.

My board right now:
4 Tombstalker
3 Perish
3 Engineered Plague
3 Extripate
2 Pithing Needle/ STP (Depends on if the field looks CT, or aggro heavy)

The real question that you have to ask yourself is this: What will I run that is better than Vindicate, game 1, every time?

Edit: Please keep in mind that at large tournaments, each round is a gamble. You may go in expecting the turnout to be 40% aggro, but get crushed by a moat 1st round. Vindicate is sort of like insurance in the 1st game. It's better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.

[Kolhell]

I thought I'd throw in my 2c on this vindicate discussion. The cards a catch-22. I almost always side them out game 2 for my hate cards. The only match-up I dont side them out is against Counter Top (I take out bobs and put in tombstalkers). Let's look at your average match ups. N.O. Decks. You will be taking these out for Perish every time. TES... What the hell are you going to Vindicate, I take it out for Extripate (it's not the strongest card in this match, but it's slightly better than vindicate here). Ichorid... out for Extripate. Merfolk/Goblins, out for either STP or plagues.

I guess what I am saying is that it's a very good rounded card to have game 1, where it's going to be, at very least, decent. But depending on your board, you will replace it with much more focused cards.

My board right now:
4 Tombstalker
3 Perish
3 Engineered Plague
3 Extripate
2 Pithing Needle/ STP (Depends on if the field looks CT, or aggro heavy)

The real question that you have to ask yourself is this: What will I run that is better than Vindicate, game 1, every time?

I agree wholeheartedly. People argue about versatility vs focus... that's what the SB is for. Even if you side out vindicate in 100% of the matches you play it does not make this card replaceable.

[chegvr]

I thought I'd throw in my 2c on this vindicate discussion. The cards a catch-22. I almost always side them out game 2 for my hate cards. The only match-up I dont side them out is against Counter Top (I take out bobs and put in tombstalkers). Let's look at your average match ups. N.O. Decks. You will be taking these out for Perish every time. TES... What the hell are you going to Vindicate, I take it out for Extripate (it's not the strongest card in this match, but it's slightly better than vindicate here). Ichorid... out for Extripate. Merfolk/Goblins, out for either STP or plagues.

I guess what I am saying is that it's a very good rounded card to have game 1, where it's going to be, at very least, decent. But depending on your board, you will replace it with much more focused cards.

My board right now:
4 Tombstalker
3 Perish
3 Engineered Plague
3 Extripate
2 Pithing Needle/ STP (Depends on if the field looks CT, or aggro heavy)

The real question that you have to ask yourself is this: What will I run that is better than Vindicate, game 1, every time?

Great post .. pretty much sums up everything essential about vindicate

SB can always come in game 2/3 .. but vindicate improves your game 1, which is the difference between winning and losing the match

One of the advantages of playing BW together is to use the power and vesatility of vindicate. In my 7 or so years of using the card, I cant recall a situation where I was upset to see it in my hand/topdeck it .. and that cant be said for many other cards (if any at all).

With that said, I do see what the others are saying however. 3 mana creature removal is not good (especially at sorcery). Its neither good as an enchantment/artifact removal. If you know your meta well, and feel that an additional set of Path to Exiles will serve better, than so be it. But in a deck as a whole, facing uncertain metas in its lifespan in various tournies, I would always want vindicates in there.

[makochman]

My board right now:
4 Tombstalker
3 Perish
3 Engineered Plague
3 Extripate
2 Pithing Needle/ STP (Depends on if the field looks CT, or aggro heavy)


No matter what you play in the main, 4x Tombstalker in the sideboard is not a good idea.

[Elvtyrr]

I have actually found that the four vindicates were not doing enough for me either, though my meta is absolutely aggro dominated. it is my intention to go into the next tournament cutting down to 2 vindicates and finding another card to cut for a 3-pack of Retribution of the meek. In order to make it as one sided as possible I have cut my equipment down to just the jittes. Testing will tell but As others have said In my meta Vindicate is a nice catch-all but usually ends up being a worse StP.

[Uly Van Hammer]

No matter what you play in the main, 4x Tombstalker in the sideboard is not a good idea.

Um thanks for the very vague advice. Any reasoning whatsoever? Or did you just feel compelled to say this with no actual explanation.

If found it to be a great way to beat the very poor counter-top match up.

[CorpT]

Um thanks for the very vague advice. Any reasoning whatsoever? Or did you just feel compelled to say this with no actual explanation.

If found it to be a great way to beat the very poor counter-top match up.

Because you're taking out a good card for a mediocre card. Bob against CB is very good. Tombstalker is ok, but still dies to Swords after a fairly substantial investment of card in GY.

[makochman]

Um thanks for the very vague advice. Any reasoning whatsoever? Or did you just feel compelled to say this with no actual explanation.


It's obvious it's a bad idea to waste 4 sideboard slots on a beater that can't normally be cast before turn 5 and sucks in multiples. You're just making other matchups worse for yourself.

[eternaldarkness]

Then go replace it with w.e you want, just don't come preaching to us that we should do it aswell. If you want to play a shit deck and call it deadguy, you are free to do so. :cool:

I'm not preaching. All I'm saying is that your stance is not supported by statements like this. Why would cutting vindicate turn the deck into shit? Is Vindicate the defining card of this deck such that cutting the card automatically makes this deck not Deadguy? Which match-ups will vindicate help in? I'm asking because the top decks right now are Merfolk, Goblins, Zoo, TES, Bant aggro. Do these decks run the previously cited cards which are the usual Vindicate targets such as Moat, Humility and Solitary Confinement? I can only make arguments based on my experiences, and in my experience Vindicate is almost always overcosted creature removal.

Of course, I could be completely way off-base and Vindicate may actually be necessary. Care to enlighten us with your own experiences which has lead you to believe that Vindicate is 100% required? I'm genuinely curious and I truly wish to hear your side and not engage in a flame war with you as you seem to wish.

[JadeOberg]

There is a caveat though: he really needs to be in a list with Vial. But yes.
?

About Sculler, I have to respectfully disagree. I played him without vial for months and still found him absolutely back breaking for my opponent. First turn Thoughtseize into a Sculler is so huge. First turn mom to protect a second turn sculler is equally huge. I believe he has application in this deck even if you can't vial him in during the opponents draw step.

[Greenpoe]

I took a unique approach to the deck after playing it for a while. I constructed this version on a few principles:
1.I wanted to limit the number of white cards to resist weakening the manabase, especially since BBB is necessary for Gatekeeper.
2.I wanted to maximize the potential of Dark Ritual. The usual issue with Dark Rit is that it's dead in the mid or late game. In my build, Rit is rarely a dead card. Beyond the obvious benefit you get for explosivity, the equipment, Stoneforge Mystic, Dark Confidant and Shriekmaw all benefit from Dark Ritual by letting you equip/cast Shriekmaw/cast cards drawn off Confidant/activate Volrath's Stronghold. Plus, since you can gain CA from Garza's Assasin, Dark Ritual helps you re-cast him.
3.I wanted creatures that double as removal. Throw together 20 creatures that deal with other creatures, and you've got some seriously strong control over their ability to play creatures. I actually cut the maindeck StP in favor of bears that kill creatures, including targeted (Shriekmaw and Garza's Assasin) sacrifice effects (Gatekeeper) and good ol' Nighthawk, giving me more total creature removal than most builds. I cut the maindeck Vindicate because I usually found myself using it deal with creatures.
No Mother of Runes because the discard often undercuts her usefulness. Plus, she's slow compared to other turn 1 plays (Dark Ritual & Thoughtseize), and turn 2 and after, I'd rather be moving on to Hymn, Confidant or Stoneforge rather than worrying about protecting my creatures.

// Lands
1 [JGC] Bloodstained Mire
7 [6E] Swamp (3)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
1 [LRW] Plains (2)
2 [R] Scrubland
4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats

// Creatures
4 [ZEN] Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 [ZEN] Vampire Nighthawk
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [REL] Shriekmaw
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [CS] Garza's Assassin

// Spells
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach
4 [U] Dark Ritual

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [BRB] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 4 [AL] Dystopia
SB: 4 [JGC] Vindicate
SB: 4 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker

Overall, I'm not sure if this list is better than a more traditional list, but it's a ton of fun to play. I may cut one of the Jittes for something else.

[colo]

2 Umezawa's Jitte with 4 Stoneforge Mystics sure are too much. I'd run Swords to Plowshares main, and while I think Garza's Assassin is a nice find and an original card, I'm not convinced it's worth it.

[Leto]

I'm a bit unsure about the Assassin. The Recovercosts hurt more than a bit, and with tripple B its not a cheap creature as well.

also, your Curve is pretty high for using Bob, with 4 Cards at 5 and 10 at 3 Mana, could break your back if you can't win really fast, mainly cause you don't feature top to prevent you from commiting suicide^^



What came on my thought last night was, we win with one, maybe to equipped beater, what about the new black Zenith

Black Sun's Zenith

[Greenpoe]

The curve, at least in relation to Bob, hasn't hurt me much. Nighthawk helps, and I've never been forced to grab a SoLS or Jitte just for the sake of gaining life. My opinion is that if they don't kill Bob, I win off the CA. Since there's so much removal, their creatures have a hard time getting through anyway. Since there's few cards that use white in the build, hitting BBB is pretty easy with Ritual and only one basic plains. As for Garza's Assassin, he's definitely an interesting card. On the positive side, I love his versatility. He's targeted removal that can carry equipment or you can play him and just have him wait around until you need to destroy something. The usefulness of the recover ability is matchup dependent, but it can be a lifesaver in the mid/late-game where you're low on cards in hand and at 9 life with a 5/6 goyf about to swing at you, or a 7/7 Knight of the Reliquary. Still not sure if he's worth it or not, but he's an interesting addition. He competes for the same slot as Gatekeeper, so it's worth consideration.

[maximumcarnage]

This is the list I am currently running. It is basically Deadgy + Goyf. It has been very solid for me in testing and weekly tournaments.

[cards]3 Mother of Runes
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Serra Avenger
4 Tidehollow Sculler

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Aether Vial
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
4 Scrubland
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland



Doesn't quite seem 100% Deadguy, but I came back and looked at this list and liked it. Had a few thoughts I wanted to run by you.

How about Pridemage? Makes Vial even more efficient, plus the exalted and the ability to deal with troublesome artifacts/enchantments seems good.

Also thought I'd want to include Hymn. instead of Inquistion/Sculler?

In my mind it looks like this.

4x Bob
4x Goyf
4x Mystic
4x Avenger
3x Pridemage

4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn
4x StP
4x Vial
1x Jitte
1x SoFaI
1x SoLaS

Manabase is the same as yours but -1 Scrudland, +1 Forest.

Really wanted to try and fit some Tops in there, but wasn't quite sure where I wanted to start or if it was even necessary.

[Voxplayer]

I have been running Bitterblossom along with Vampire Nighthawk recently and although I like them, I have been paying attention to Mirrian Crusader. I think Bitterblossom is the go to card against control once you sneak it in but if I am anticipating a more agro field, would the crusader be a better choice? If so, what would I drop Bitterblossom for? Am I investing too much salt into Bitterblossom? Here is what I am running now but I am also new to the format (not magic though).
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thoughseize
3 Hym to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate
3 Bitterblosom
4 Sinkhole
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Rishadan Port
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marshflats
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
1 Plains
5 Swamp

It is also possible that I am really jacking this list up as it seems to be more centered against control and open to agro (sinkhole, bitterblosom, etc). Any help would be greatly appreciated since there has always been a special place in my heart for the Black White combination.

[maximumcarnage]

I don't know about Bitterblossom in here, man. We already have a lot of stock in killing ourselves as it is.

[Tao]

Sculler is very good. ...

When you take their cretures and make them burn Sculler it is almost exactly like another Inquisition that took the removal, only that you pay 2 Mana/ a Vial activation and they 1 instead if 1 Mana and 0. Except that the creature wouldn't come back with Inquisition if the opponent chooses so. When you take their removal it is also like Inquisition. On the other hand it beats and carries equipment. To me the disadvantages were too much. Especially that it gets killed by "collateral damage" like Firespout, Explosives or Qasali Pridemages/ Grips with no other good target.

On a general note, in lists with Vial and Mystic, I recommend playing Epochrasite. It is a great Equipment carrier, has nice synergy with Vial and is a great blocker vs. Aggro and survives Explosives, Deed and Firespout vs. control.

[Qweerios]

I'm not sure if my B/W deck qualifies as a Deadguy Ale but it uses many similar cards and puts en emphasis on lands destruction and card advantage. I have posted a thread about it on developing competitive but it didnt spark many ideas. This is the deck I have been playing for the past week:


Creatures (18)
2 Mother of Runes
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Abyssal Persecutor

Spells (18)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Gerrard's Verdict
4 Vindicate

Artifacts (2)
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands (22)
4 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
4 Godless Shrine
4 Tainted Field
6 Swamp

Sideboard (15)
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pithing Needle
3 Perish
4 Duress
2 Engineered Plague


Playing two colors and being completely stifle proof feels great. So far the combo matchup is quite good, the aggro matchup is OK but wish I could stabilize quicker against zoo, and the aggro/control matchup is surprisingly good. Notable problems are the lack of first turn plays, opposing Aether Vials, and Wastelocks. Anything running 6+ fetchlands or little to no basic lands usually dislike the deck. Also, opponents seem to never have enough removal to get rid of Percy as most of it is spent on MoR, Bob, and Arbiter.

[makochman]

I'm not sure if my B/W deck qualifies as a Deadguy Ale but it uses many similar cards and puts en emphasis on lands destruction and card advantage. I have posted a thread about it on developing competitive but it didnt spark many ideas. This is the deck I have been playing for the past week:


This is like The Gate with white :)

The only thing I would suggest is to find room for Thoughtseize (or Inquisition of Kozilek), since targeted discard is so good.

Edit: I realized that you don't have uncounterable discard outlets. This could be a problem in the control matchup. Maybe 2x Cabal Therapy?

[Leto]

This is like The Gate with white :)

I thought the same^^

I would cut the Moms and Gerrards Verdict for TS. Gerrards hits two, but as said above, targeted Discard is really good

[Uly Van Hammer]

I hate to stir up the vindicate pot again but... There has been a lot of show and tell floating around. Is O-Ring a better option if you expect to be looking strait down the barrel of Emrakul? I main deck 1 Karakas, but I cant waste SB spots on more and I really dont want to get crushed by that guy. Thoughts?

[ForlornEgoist]

The issue with O-Ring is that it's too slow for us to deal with Emrakul. After he's cast they'll have a chance to atk and use his Annihilator. This deck isn't like Enchantress where they can afford to lose 6 permanent before casting O-Ring. I would suggest maybe 3 Duress and 3 Dibolic Edict. Duress helps in the combo MU and against decks like Show and Tell (letting us ping their cheat cards) and then the Edict actually let's you get rid of Emrakul.

Beyond that there's not much you can do.

Forlorn Egoist

[CorpT]

The issue with O-Ring is that it's too slow for us to deal with Emrakul. After he's cast they'll have a chance to atk and use his Annihilator. This deck isn't like Enchantress where they can afford to lose 6 permanent before casting O-Ring. I would suggest maybe 3 Duress and 3 Dibolic Edict. Duress helps in the combo MU and against decks like Show and Tell (letting us ping their cheat cards) and then the Edict actually let's you get rid of Emrakul.

Beyond that there's not much you can do.

Forlorn Egoist

They only get the extra turn if they cast Emrakul. Show and Tell puts Emrakul into play. Additionally, you get to put something into play as well.

[wilson]

So you put Oring into play via their show and tell naming Emmy.. thats priceless ;) gotta love it

[therorschach]

I would actually remove sinkhole for Thoughtseize. I would much rather be able to remove a spell than get rid of one land.

[TheSocMethod]

@Uly: I completely agree with Forlorn Egoist. Sneak and Tell and Hive Mind decks have been very prevalent in my meta for a long time, and Diabolic Edict is our best answer to the huge dudes. If you expect to see it, I'd recommend 3-4 in the board. Oblivion Ring is useless against Sneak Attack, as any semi-savvy player won't drop it until they can get at least one activation, and your land is all gone by the time it's your turn again...

[novatinhu]

Guys Im having huge problems agains Folks anyone have any SB card really strong to manage this match ?

[CorpT]

Guys Im having huge problems agains Folks anyone have any SB card really strong to manage this match ?

Engineered Plague, Thoughtseize, Swords, Dark Confidant, Jitte and SoFaI are not enough?

[novatinhu]

Engineered Plague, Thoughtseize, Swords, Dark Confidant, Jitte and SoFaI are not enough?


E. Plague: only if you put 2 on table and against 8 counters its hard.

Swords: Against 11 counters not make too much diference

Jitte: i have 1 in Deck, Folks runs 3 after SB

SoFaI: the real 1 that makes diference but when you put into game Folks probably will have a massive table than you.

Seize: i run IoK and its good but not win games.

[TossUsToLions]

Mother of Runes and Stoneforge Mystic wreck folk. Vial in a SFM, then activate the SFM to put in a SoFI and start beating. Also, running at least 6 removal spells is good against them

[novatinhu]

Mother of Runes and Stoneforge Mystic wreck folk. Vial in a SFM, then activate the SFM to put in a SoFI and start beating. Also, running at least 6 removal spells is good against them

But you need to have Vials in your deck and i think vial is crap in Deadguy

[CorpT]

But you need to have Vials in your deck and i think vial is crap in Deadguy

It sounds like if you want to beat Folk, you should run better cards like Thoughtseize, Vial and SFM. And learn to play around counter spells.

[TossUsToLions]

i agree 100%. The deck that i am playing, which plays vials, isnt really "Deadguy Ale". I just posted this here because it seems like half of the decks in this thread aren't really Deadguy decks.

[Nizmox]

But you need to have Vials in your deck and i think vial is crap in Deadguy

Results speak for themselves, this guy beat Folk twice

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/20957_Drinking_from_the_Deadguy_Ale_Making_Top_8_of_SCG_Legacy_Open_Kansas_City.html

[InResponseForceOfWill]

I played in a tourny this Sunday and there were 3 DeadGuy decks. This one guy was running 4 Aether Vials with 4 Vampire Hexmage. He also ran 4 Dark Depths. One game he attacked me with an indestructable, flying 20/20 turn 3. :( I wouldn't run this combo, but I was surely intrigued.

[Parax]

Old Combo is old :P

It was played out crazy like in extended last season. Its why DD went from dollar bin to 20 bucks overnight.

[Leto]

went to my first legacy-tournament today (both, with Deadguy and in general^^), 56 people (+/-2) and went 3-3. Not really amazing but I'm happy with it and would like some suggests to my list.

Played this



2x Plains
6x Swamp
4x Scrubland
4x Marsh Flats
4x Bloodstained Mire

4x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Duress
3x Hymn to Tourach
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Go for the Throat
2x Vindicate

4x Dark Confidant
4x Vampire Nighthawk
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Gatekeeper of Malakir

2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant

1x Sword of Fire & Ice
1x Sword of Light & Shadow
1x Umezawas Jitte
2x Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard

3x Deathmark
2x Duress
2x Diabolic Edict
3x Planar Void
4x Extirpate



Meta: I had no clue what to expect, since it was my first Tourney. From talking with Friends and searching the Inet I expected a lot of UGx, Sneak Show and Dredge, some tribal/zoo and a few Combo-players

My Expectations were fullfilled, got paired against UGR Sneak Show, Dredge (1 with, 1 without Led), Zoo with NO, UGB-Thresh and RG-Sligh. Tribals and Combo were there, but not as much as I feared.

Sideboard was designed to get dredge with early planar Void and Extirpate and UGx with Deathmark, Duress and Edict. Worked quite well, but I'm not very happy with no outs against Combo and hope you have some ideas about it.

Short Report about the games (sorry for the bad writing, english is not my first Language)

Marco with UGR Sneak Show
G1: He has Turn 3 Progenitus, I can't hit the third B for Gatekeeper
Boarded Edict for 'the Throat
G2: He draws bad and I can handle his threads. Gets beaten by Stoneforge+Jitte
G3: I get double Bob and reveal lucky while he Show&Tells Emrakul in. I play Nighthawk and he hesitates for 3 Rounds (I think) to attack. Both go down, all but 1 land of me were destroyed. I recovered with 2 Bobs+Top while he draws crap. Bobs took the victory on 4 life^^
2:1

Zen (hope i got the Name right) with Led-Dredge
G1: He dredged really bad and I beat him with Nighthawk
Boarded Planar+Extirpate. Out Duress, Hymn and 2 Inquisition
G2: No hate in sight, Turn 3 for 24 in my face
G3: Not proud of this, but I bought International Edition Scrublands a week ago, not knowing they were not legal in Legacy. Judge declared Loss and I was happy not to be DQed (again no bad intention on my side. I tried later to feel it through the sleeves, must have numb fingers, felt nothing. A friend of mine lend me a playset legal ones.)
1:2

Denis with Zoo+NO (or NoBant he was not sure^^*)
G1: I killed everything touching the Table but he had more creatures than I removal
Boarded Deathmark, not knowing he had NO
G2: Natural Order -> Progenitus. 3 Gatekeeper in hand, 4 Mana but no BBB -,- (second time)
0:2

Patrick with RG-Sligh
G1: Got burned to 8 then stick nighthawk, SoLaS and Elspeth and won
G2: He droped saying he don't think he can win the second
2:0

Sebi with UGB-Thresh (Friend ho lend me Scrublands and some more)
G1: He had everything, full load of force, stifle, Daze... Goyf+Moongoose= Kill
Boarded in Duress and Deathmark, no clue what left, think Vindicate and ???
G2: I had everything, Removal for the lonely Critters and loads of Disruption. Nighthawk kills
G3: Got nothing on the Table, Moongoose beats me to 13 without Thresh -,-
1:2

Richard with Ledless Dredge
G1: He got lethal on Turn 2/3
In Gravehate, out Discard
G2: Mull to 5, no hate, drop a top, upkeep next turn found Planar Void in it. He had nothing against it
G3: Early Extirpate on Bridge and Ichorid. Then follows a war of Atrittion as he throws Aquamoebe and Golgari Thug at me and I get rid of them. Jitte and Nighthawk won me the game.


Pros:
- went 3-3
- Nighthawk is awesome
- Deadguy has a pretty solid matchup against the whole "I cheat a fattie into play"-faction that is popular here
- went best in our car although I lost to Sebi

Cons:
- Tripple B is harder to get if you need it -,-
- I need defined Boardingplans^^*
- International and Collectors Edition are not Tournament-legal

hope you have some suggestions to my list

[Barbwire]

I recently built a variation to this deck for a friend of mine not knowing it was already an archtype. My build runs Thoughtseize over Inquisition, with PTE's instead of STP's. It also runs no Gatekeepers but runs Serra's avengers and Grunts with no Nighthawks. I'm also running four mother of runes. I haven't played it in any real tournaments but in testing it holds its own against zoo/fish, goblins can be to quick at times and ANT...welll ANT either wins or it doesnt anyway.

[Greenpoe]

Leto, here's my thoughts on your list: Why no Mother of Runes? Mom+Equipment=win. With Mom, there's less of a need for removal since she makes such a great wall. I would drop the 2 Duress for +1 Hymn, +1 Vindicate. Lategame Hymns are much better than lategame Duress/Inquisition. Since you're lategame should already be strong with Top, Equipment, and Confidant, I would swap out Elspeth for Serra Avenger. Consider Snuff Out over Go for the Throat. Since you're not running Thoughtseize, the lifeloss from Snuff Out isn't a big deal compared to the tempo gain. Perhaps even change out the Gatekeepers for Mother of Runes; that way, you can add in Wasteland and the Mothers work well with the equipment.

[ForlornEgoist]

the lifeloss from Snuff Out isn't a big deal compared to the tempo gain.

So, you expect him to possibly pay 8 life all so he can kill 1 creature, assuming said spell resolves? This in addition to 4 Bobs, 8 fetches, and combat damage/shennanigans from the opponent? Yea, I miss Snuff Out from my MBA days, but we don't run it because realistically you don't want to hard cast it ever and drawing it off of Bob is essentially a game loss.

@ Leto:

Sorry to hear that about your Scrubs. I almost did the same thing too, but luckily the store noted: "Not Tournament Legal."

I assume that your running Go for the Throat as a substitution for the x2 Vindicate so I won't mention anything in regards to that. However, I would suggest upgrading the IoK to Thoughtseizes. Really the lifeloss is something we can recover from, and being able to rip any threat would serve to help your combo MU as well as ripping other cards IoK can't, for example: FoW, Moat, Smokestacks, Humility, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Sneak Attack, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Progenitus, Ad Nauseaum, etc.

I would also suggest upgrading your SDT to 3-4 (my preference is 4, but it is a perfectly arguable point to run 3). SDT is incredibly synergetic with the deck. Including the SFM's, we run on average 11-12 shuffle effects, so SDT gives our deck a very good chance of fixing the draws we need. Not to mention minimizing the life loss from Bob is always relevant.

Mom is definitely something your going to want to consider running in place of Gatekeeper of Malakir. White has little if any efficient beaters, and a lot of our deck is varying types of removal so in a variety of your MU's you'll be wanting to stall out into the mid-game. Mom is perfect in that she acts as essentially an unkillable blocker (situations like Zoo where you'll name green to block 'Goyf and they burn/PtE her aside), or shielding other creatures to keep them alive/let them get direct damage with an equipment. Gatekeeper is a decent piece of removal, but ultimately I've found that while BBB is attainable, it often isn't always realistic in a game where I'm fetching Scrubs subject to nonbasic hate or basic plains. My list in particular is unforgiving of Gatekeeper as I run 4 Wasteland.

Wasteland, I'm assuming, is a budget necessity for you, so when you're able to get a playset I would suggest running them. I won't list arguments for it since their in every primer for decks that run it.

Hymn to Tourach should be an automatic 4-of because grandma always said, "Never leave home without yer 2-for-1's." :tongue:

Serra Avenger, I've found, to be preferrable when you have Vial. Yea, the Vigilance is nice when you want to atk with a piece of equipment and then block next turn, but w/o equipment she's a vanilla 3/3 body that doesn't even sit above burn range. I've been MDing x2 Tombstalker, but that's because I'm willing to run the risking of revealing 8 off Bob for a creature that puts them typically on a 3-turn clock by the time I cast him. I also run x4 SDT to help minimize the risk of Bob reveal, but keeping him sitting under 3 usually means that with 11 fetch effects I'm likely to see him in a MU but not so much that he clutters my hands or pings me off of Bob. Ultimately I just felt like the deck lacked solid, "Oh snaps," beater which sad to say are just sometimes necessary, so I opted for him happily at the risk of potentially lethal Bob life loss.

Those are my suggestions. Hope you have more success with the deck. ;)

Forlorn Egoist

[Parax]

Hymn to Tourach should be an automatic 4-of because grandma always said, "Never leave home without yer 2-for-1's." :tongue:

\Forlorn Egoist

And to think, i always thought my grandma was the only one that said this.

[Leto]

nice to see some life in her ;)

@Gatekeeper

I really want to cut him, but I hesitate cause at the Tournament, everybody and their Mum played UGx+Progenitus&Emrakul and it is really good at the moment, to steal game 1 from them (my first opponent hated me for this^^). Maybe I Maindeck Edicts and Moms in Split or something. Need to think and test this more

@IoK

I really need to Upgrade them^^

@Mom

I can really see her in Gatekeepers Place, Problem is as mentionend that Gatekeeper right now is a Metacall.

@Wasteland

Without the Keeper is Wasteland a viable Choice. (Looks like my Savings are in serious trouble right now)


@Lack of Serious Beats

I thought the same and came to Abyssal Persecutor. Lesser Ping, bigger Damage and most important, trample. No more hangin around with the Bitterblossom-Crew. Tested this against a friend of mine and worked out pretty well, the deck has enough options to kill the guy after the work is done.


Thanks for your Suggestions, i work my list over and present it soon

[Wiseman4]

How does the deck beat Affinity?

[colo]

Remove every threat they got and start beating down?

[ForlornEgoist]

@ Leto

Thoughtseize takes priority for you over Wasteland at the moment, however I would suggest getting Wasteland eventually as it is a necessary staple. If you absolutely want the sacrifice effect MD then run 3 Diabolic Edict instead. Essentially they kill the same creatures, it's instant speed so you don't waste your own turn, and it's only 1B which is incredibly more reasonable for us that BBB.

@ Abyssal Persecutor
If you really want to run him then I suggest taking a look at The Gate thread. Makes apt use of him. We can't run him because he'd change the deck style too much. Ultimately I'd rather have Bob and the White splash for StP/Vindicate than a slightly faster clock on our opponent.

As for Affinity, this is definitely a tough MU. Depending on how dedicated you want to be for Affinity hate, here are my suggestions:
3-4 Powder Keg
3-4 Null Rod

Keg @ 0 destroys Ornithopter/Artifact lands, and Null Rod shuts off Artifact lands/Arcbound Ravager/Cranial Plating/Springleaf Drum

As for playing them, I don't really have too much to say since it's absent from my meta, but here are a few suggestions:
In regards to Wasteland targets, ignore Great Furnace and go for either Glimmervoid or Vault of Whispers. With TS your primary target should be Cranial Plating. We have several ways of dealing with a creature, but if they drop this and we don't have a Vindicate then you're in topdeck mode to find one. Be wary, as I've picked up on some Affinity lists running Stoneforge Mystic. Part of Affinity's weakness is that they burn out really fast, so if you can last the first few turns your prospects begin to look better.

Sorry I can't provide more help with this MU, but I honestly have little if any experience with this MU beyond my MBA days. I'll do some research and get back to ya.

Forlorn Egoist

[2Rach]

@ Abyssal Persecutor
If you really want to run him then I suggest taking a look at The Gate thread. Makes apt use of him. We can't run him because he'd change the deck style too much. Ultimately I'd rather have Bob and the White splash for StP/Vindicate than a slightly faster clock on our opponent.
I ran a BW deck with Stoneforge Mystic for Grafted War-gear and the usual suspects. Very minimal change, you already run Stops and Vindicates. It isn't as bad as it sounds. Just putting it out there for people who might want to try it.

[Spacemagic]

@ beating affinity, if it's prominent in your meta, SB some kataki, war's wage, maybe some disenchant??

[deezy]

@ beating affinity, if it's prominent in your meta, SB some kataki, war's wage, maybe some disenchant??

Thats the shitiest advice ever...hey guys this guy sucks I kick his ass every week....lmao....
No seriuosly kataki is boss against affinity...

[Angelfire]

If people think Aether Vial should be included... Doesn't that make this deck some kind suboptimal of Death and Taxes hybrid? For Vial to be good you want to run 20+ creatures.

[Spacemagic]

lol, sup deezy

seriously though, i'm brand new to this deck...just kinda fell into most of it and decided to build it...

list

4x Scrubland
4x Marsh Flats
4x Wasteland
3x Swamp
3x Plains
1x Karakas
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Bojuka Bog

4x Aether Vial
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow

4x Mother of Runes
3x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Serra Avenger
4xDark Confidant
4x Tidehollow Sculler

4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Vindicate

62 cards...looking to cut 2. I'm currently looking at going down a Stoneforge Mystic and possibly a land (Bojuka Bog to sideboard) chime in, gimme some valid reasons at your suggestions, otherwise my head's gonna 'splode, also i have toyed with the idea of dropping the 4 vials for another land (mishra's factory, horizon canopy, or another fetch) and the 4th Vindicate. holla back

[Leto]

your list looks very similar to the List Gene Richtsmeier played in Kansas City SCG here (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/20957.html)

maybe you find something helpful in it.

[Spacemagic]

That was actually an article i read a couple times for some insight, however i couldn't justify not running hymn to tourach, especially after seeing the final match from SCG Edison. granted that was BWG Rock, but these decks play a similar disruption game, also i had to change the manabase up a bit. On a side note, i know a lot of people don't like vial in this deck or claim that it's not deadguy with vial...why? Even though i don't know if i want to keep vial in, it is VERY nice to have instant speed targeted disruption from sculler.

[Leto]

this is what I am testing at the moment



// Lands
6 [HOP] Swamp
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [P2] Plains
4 [R] Scrubland
4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats

// Creatures
3 [UL] Mother of Runes
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [GTW] Vampire Nighthawk

// Spells
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
2 [MBS] Go for the Throat
3 [ARE] Diabolic Edict
2 [JGC] Vindicate
1 [GPX] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant



biggest changes are no gatekeeper and 3 moms 3 edicts for that. IoK switched against TS.

Will provide you with testing results later

question I asked myself lately, are Swords really superior to paths in this deck. I mean getting the opponent a basic land is huge (especially when you are running Wasteland) but stalling back our beat-down plan isn't this good either, cause our guys aren't biggest folks around (no one more than 2 Power means 2-3 hits to set back the lifegain of a sworded Goyf).

[CorpT]

this is what I am testing at the moment



// Creatures
3 [UL] Mother of Runes
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [GTW] Vampire Nighthawk
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant



question I asked myself lately, are Swords really superior to paths in this deck. I mean getting the opponent a basic land is huge (especially when you are running Wasteland) but stalling back our beat-down plan isn't this good either, cause our guys aren't biggest folks around (no one more than 2 Power means 2-3 hits to set back the lifegain of a sworded Goyf).

Swords is far better than Path. There shouldn't be much debate there. The problem is not Path v Swords, but why aren't you running Goyf? It looks like you're very low on creatures. I've found decks like this require the perfect mix of creatures and disruption. Too little disruption and your creatures die to their control. Too few creatures and your lack of pressure means they can get back into the game after your disruption.

You have 9 spells that only kill creatures. That seems far too excessive to me. Especially in a deck with 2x Vindicate and Jitte to boot. I would expect you to run out of creatures and sit there with removal/disruption in hand wishing you could use the equipment in play.

Play more and better creatures and you'll see that the life gained by Sword is insignificant and your equipment isn't sitting around doing nothing because you have no creatures.

[Spacemagic]

so does no one consider spectral lynx anymore? it can chump any goyf or knight all day, can't be blocked by progenitus, shrugs off firespout, and regenerates for cheap...plus they're like 50 cents each. I considered them at first to fight creature decks, lynx plus a sword or mom would be a headache.

[Angelfire]

so does no one consider spectral lynx anymore? it can chump any goyf or knight all day, can't be blocked by progenitus, shrugs off firespout, and regenerates for cheap...plus they're like 50 cents each. I considered them at first to fight creature decks, lynx plus a sword or mom would be a headache.

I feel like paying one extra mana for Mirran Crusader is justified. You gain Pro-Black, a toughness and Double Strike (you do lose Regen, but w/e).

[TheArchitect]

I would think Phyrexian Crusader would be better than Mirran crusader if your looking for a resilient beater. Pro red and white (immune to the vast majority of removal) and in combat he makes creatures smaller before they can even do damage. The infect is kinda annoying outside blocking though :/

EDIT: I didn't think of the swords effects stacking for mirrian crusader. Thats pretty ridiculous and probably makes him a better option if you need a 3cc beater. The phyrexian crusaders probably still a better option if your looking for resilience though. I guess the real question is: are either crusader better than Vampire nighthawk? Cause I'm assuming you would have to replace him, not make room for another 3cc creature elsewhere.

[Spacemagic]

excellent point, the double strike would cause some ridiculous equipment triggers also.8 damage + gain 6 life+2 creatures back SoLaS or 4 damage+2 cards drawn SoFaI...hmm that sounds quite tasty the loss of regen would hurt vs. zoo or gobbos w/o mom or sword, but w/e i'm just throwin out ideas anyways, thanks for the insight

[The Pharmacist]

I understand that this isn't really Deadguy Ale, but it kinda is also. I've been testing this list I put together and it's been running really good.
The Sign in Blood and Beseech the Queen is great in this deck!



3 Gerrad's Verdict
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize

4 Phyrexian Crusader
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Squadron Hawk

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate
1 Damnation

2 Liliana Vess
2 Reanimate

3 Sign in blood
3 Beseech the Queen

2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Marsh Flats
10 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Scrublands
2 Plains

[CorpT]

I understand that this isn't really Deadguy Ale, but it kinda is also. I've been testing this list I put together and it's been running really good.
The Sign in Blood and Beseech the Queen is great in this deck!

No. No, it's not. This deck is terrible and not even close to competitive.

[Bignasty197]

No. No, it's not. This deck is terrible and not even close to competitive.

At least we are all being constructive.

[Spacemagic]

Did some playtesting last night. Seems the deck does great against GWB Rock, which should be good since SCG Edison had 4 in the top 16 and 3 in the top 8. Watch out for explosives and deed (duh) the one bojuka bog i MD was relevant as the games went long enough to draw it and shrink goyf/knight.

I was trading games with goblins (mom+SoFaI are your outs) though i still feel disadvantaged in this matchup

didn't do so hot vs. zoo.

will continue the gauntlet later vs. spring tide, merfolk, belcher, and dredge.

how is everyone else's matchups for this archetype and what cards do you feel are relevant in the even or less favored matchups to pull them out?

[InResponseForceOfWill]

but why aren't you running Goyf?

This comment made me think up this list:

4x Dark Confidant
4x Tidehollow Sculler
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Vampire Nighthawk
3x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Mother of Runes

4x Vindicate
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Aether Vial
3x Inquisition of Kozilek/Thoughtseize
1x Umezawa’s Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow

4x Wasteland
4x Scrubland
4x Marsh Flats
3x Verdant Catacombs
2x Swamp
1x Bayou
1x Plains
1x Forest


Easily splashes a tiny hint of green for Goyf, but mainly I imagine he'll get Vialed in. I'm gunna try this. Anyone here experimented with something similar? If so, what were your results and opinions?

[The Pharmacist]

No. No, it's not. This deck is terrible and not even close to competitive.

Wow so all the testing and games that I won must mean nothing. Next time I'll just send you my deck list and ask what you think.

[CorpT]

This comment made me think up this list:

4x Dark Confidant
4x Tidehollow Sculler
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Vampire Nighthawk
3x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Mother of Runes

4x Vindicate
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Aether Vial
3x Inquisition of Kozilek/Thoughtseize
1x Umezawa’s Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow

4x Wasteland
4x Scrubland
4x Marsh Flats
3x Verdant Catacombs
2x Swamp
1x Bayou
1x Plains
1x Forest


Easily splashes a tiny hint of green for Goyf, but mainly I imagine he'll get Vialed in. I'm gunna try this. Anyone here experimented with something similar? If so, what were your results and opinions?

This is very similar to what I'm running. Very similar in deed. I absolutely love it. I'm still not sure about going with a 3cmc vs a 2cmc in your Nighthawk slot just to keep my Vial active the whole game, but that's up in the air.


Wow so all the testing and games that I won must mean nothing. Next time I'll just send you my deck list and ask what you think.

Testing against sealed pools and SoM block decks doesn't count.

There is no way a pile like that is doing anything against real decks. Let's see what problems there are:

Phyrexian Crusader in a non-Poison deck. Check.
Lillian Vess. Check
18 Land in a deck with Vess and plenty of 3 drops. Check.
1 whole Scrubland in a deck that wants to cast white spells. Check.
Sign in Blood. Check.
Beseech the Queen. Check.
No Bob. Check.
Random Singletons. Check.

There's no fixing this deck without starting over. It looks like a pile of the Black and White cards you had laying around. If you want to send me a decklist for approval, feel free, but don't be surprised when I tell you it's bad.

[InResponseForceOfWill]

I'm still not sure about going with a 3cmc vs a 2cmc in your Nighthawk slot just to keep my Vial active the whole game, but that's up in the air.

I feel the same way. I would prefer to run a 2cc creature there, but I believe the lifelink is very necessary, especially if you run Thoughtseize over IoK. (I currently use IoK b/c I don't own TS. Gunna wait til they rotate out of Extended)

I mentioned this a few pages ago, but I played a guy who ran 4x Dark Depths and 4x Vampire Hexmage. That's about the only thing I'd consider dropping the Nighthawks for, but even still, it's probably inferior. Sure is fun though...

What other 2cc drops might contend for the spot? Too bad you can't vial in a gatekeeper AND kick it :)

Also, I want to squeeze 2x Sensei's Divining Tops back in. Ideas how? I'd probably go -1 Vindicate to SB, -1 Nighthawk?


Edit: Oh yah, Serra Avenger would go well there.

[maximumcarnage]

What other 2cc drops might contend for the spot?


Serra Avenger. Epochrasite could be sexy, too.

[CorpT]

Squadron Hawk has been surprisingly good for me. The ability to keep spitting out dudes is really nice. It makes the deck more equipment reliant, but Jitte on a hawk is still two jitte counters.

[Richard Cheese]

I think it's still too early to count out Phyrexian Crusader just yet. Strictly compared to his Mirran counterpart, he looks pretty good:

-better protection colors
-still a 5-turn clock
-survives combat with a 3/3 instead of trading

So far in testing, PC has been an absolute house against Zoo, a much better defensive choice than Nighthawk so far. MC has been nuts once equipped, the problem is how much removal he tends to eat in response to equipping.

[The Pharmacist]

This is very similar to what I'm running. Very similar in deed. I absolutely love it. I'm still not sure about going with a 3cmc vs a 2cmc in your Nighthawk slot just to keep my Vial active the whole game, but that's up in the air.



Testing against sealed pools and SoM block decks doesn't count.

There is no way a pile like that is doing anything against real decks. Let's see what problems there are:

Phyrexian Crusader in a non-Poison deck. Check.
Lillian Vess. Check
18 Land in a deck with Vess and plenty of 3 drops. Check.
1 whole Scrubland in a deck that wants to cast white spells. Check.
Sign in Blood. Check.
Beseech the Queen. Check.
No Bob. Check.
Random Singletons. Check.

There's no fixing this deck without starting over. It looks like a pile of the Black and White cards you had laying around. If you want to send me a decklist for approval, feel free, but don't be surprised when I tell you it's bad.

Phyrexian Crusader- May not be the best call. He" pro red and white. Seams good to me
Liliana Vess- It's a 2of. You play her late game. Why is she bad again??
18 land- You have 3 draw spells and 3 tutor spells. Then you have 4 Squadron Hawks and if 1 hit's the table he thins you deck by 3 more cards. Seams good to me
1 Scrubland- I guess you never lost to Wasteland. You must be the only play that hasn't. Some day you'll understand tho
Sign in blood- It's draw you 2 cards. That's good isn't it? How many cards do you draw off Bob? Maybe one because someone always kills him.
Random Singlrtons- You play tutors go get it.

Don't tell me that the deck can't win. That a bunch of BULLSHIT. You people need to try new ideas.

[Leto]

@Goyf

as I ran no Vial i don't see the big advantage in splashing a third color, wasteland is in BW annoying enough (yes I know how good Goyf is, as I play on regular base against it). I for myself play around with Jötun Grunt atm. playing 2-3 in Main would open some sideboardslots that are designated to gravahate.

@Nighthawk

I wouldn't dare cutting him, he won me so many games, he lets you stabilize on really low life maybe having Bob out, kills every Creature without Firststrike and Power 3 and has flying.

@Phyrexian Crusader

In the "The Gate"-Thread was that Creature discussed some Pages long. Didn't made the cut in it. I see it in Deadguy similar. You don't want your Opponent at end of game on 9 Poison and 1 Life (worst case but who cares). He's in 90% a Wall of Denial without flying that will be killed by most Goyfs. Great

@Mirran Crusader

Mentionend him right after he was spoiled in here but he sits in the same spot as Nighthawk and Nighthawk is in my eyes far more versatile and fullfiles way more roles in the deck than Mirran could. Additionally with the Swords you need to hit the Player, which you can't garanty at most times. But as always, you need to test it in your meta.

@the Pharmacist

if you try to avoid Wasteland you play no Nonbasics, not one. Why one Scrubland, i find no reason in it.
Sign vs Bob = 0:1, Bob has drawn me an insane amount of cards, singlehandly killed opponents and can carry equipment. If you are worried that it get killed, play Dark Tutelage or Phyrexian Arena. He is not for nothing one of the most played Cards in Black
Beseech: I find Tutors outside from Combo or the Trinketmage-Toolbox a bit odd, never wished to had one during play
btw. for what exactly do you play reanimate?

If you would give us some insight in your choices and your overall gameplan you would get more serious and helpful answers, but at the moment i can unterstand CorpT cause it looked like he said it, a pile of white and black Cards

[Parax]

Phyrexian Crusader- May not be the best call. He" pro red and white. Seams good to me
Liliana Vess- It's a 2of. You play her late game. Why is she bad again??
18 land- You have 3 draw spells and 3 tutor spells. Then you have 4 Squadron Hawks and if 1 hit's the table he thins you deck by 3 more cards. Seams good to me
1 Scrubland- I guess you never lost to Wasteland. You must be the only play that hasn't. Some day you'll understand tho
Sign in blood- It's draw you 2 cards. That's good isn't it? How many cards do you draw off Bob? Maybe one because someone always kills him.
Random Singlrtons- You play tutors go get it.

Don't tell me that the deck can't win. That a bunch of BULLSHIT. You people need to try new ideas.

You play Phyrexian Crusader cause you like the Protection of colors, why not just play Stillmoon Cavalier instead? Pro black/white makes it pretty good, also can have evasion. But then again it gets bolted. However it gets bolted just as much as Crusader gets whacked by Smother/For the Throat/Any other removal. Both also fight for spot with Vampire Nighthawk, which has evasion built in.

What are you using Lilianna Vess for? Turn 6 discard? Turn 7 tutor? Does this even sound good? There is better tutors and better dicard than this shaff.

If you are playing around Wasteland, you might as well go play standard. You are weaking your deck because you don't want a wasteland to blow up a land. If you play the Stifle-Proof mana base mentioned a while back, its pretty sturdy, and should be a little more Wasteland resilant. I think you need to just admit that the reason your not playing the set of scrublands is cause you don't have them.

Squadron Hawk is good, but i don't think you know why. "Thins your deck, wah wah wah". I have a problem with this for two reasons. People who are smarter than me have done the math that shows "Thinning your deck" isn't as good as you'd think. Besdies the fact most people thin their deck of lands (a commoditiy that you need earlier in the game, not as much at the end) to get to their business. You are adding in a creature that really is suboptial but gives you multiple flying threats, which is why its good, not the fact it thins your deck.

And really saying that Bob will only get you 1 card, and sign in blood is better, shows that you've never played with bob.

[TheArchitect]

Playing Sign in blood is like playing cancel when counterspell exists. Regardless of the fact that 98% of the time Bob and phrexian arena are better options, theres even Night's Whisper to make sign in blood obsolete.

Also Beseech the queen? Again its like playing cancel since grim tutor exists.

And lilian vess is just terrible. If you want a 4cc planswalker bomb elspeth is defiantly the way to go.

Its not even a matter of not testing things. There are just infinity better options than the cards you have chosen.

As for phyrexian crusader, I didn't read the discussion on the gate, but I have read much of that thread to know that it is indeed a similar idea to this one. So if its not worth it there it probably isn't here either.

[bokwinkle]

Ok, I'm not saying Pharmacist has developed the end-all be-all dead guy list, but when's the last time dead guy top-8'ed a major event? Is it time for someone to think outside the box? sometimes you have to work through the stupid cards and the "chaff" (not shaff) to find that golden nugget that simply wins games.

I'm sorry, but I just playtested the pharmasist list against reanimator and won by tutoring up sign in bloods and nighthawks with liliana vess while he had an archon and iona on the table. Sign in Blood is a direct damage spell OR draw against a lot of decks and can simply get you there in close games....but I guess there are no close games in legacy *rolls eyes*. If you play duals and fetches in a deck that only runs one or 2 plains there is no reason not to run sign in blood over night's whisper - it's simply a better card.

As for the bob vs Sign in blood comparison...if you really want you can play hawks and mystics and bob and just loose to firespout if you want - have fun with that. Honestly, you have to plan on seeing firespout and you simply cannot plan on making ANYONE discard it because of the pressense of Jace 2.0, Brainstorm and Top. Against a good Multi-color control player the deck simply folds without generating some sort of card advantage that doesn't depend on a 2/2 hanging out for multiple turns. If nothing else, sign in blood can ensure a turn 3 land drop and draw into things like Thoughtseize or duress. Sure Bob will *just win games* against people that don't bother with removal...but honestly against those people you can win with a grizly bear too.

As for Vess - she's a win con, a tutor, AND discard. She's a freaking house. if nothing else she's a tutor or discard and a fog as people swing wildly at her to try and keep you from just ending the game. Sure she's 5 mana...and there's 2 in the deck. Look at the Dead-guy list...it's control. Control needs a finisher. She doesn't die to swords, firestorm or any of the dominant removal in the format and she just ends games...plus she enables tool-box approaches for singleton cards to get you out of tight spots.

I love the beseech vs grim tutor comment - again, if you run duals and fetches in a deck that only runs one non-black land why is grim tutor better than Beseech? because beseec $0.10 and cheap cards don't win games? lol - as for whether tutors belong in a deck like dead-guy...who knows. I mean tool-boxes have been used successfully in non-combo legacy decks for ages...let me think of a good example...well, I guess Stoneforge mystic must suck too because he's a tutor for non-combo. I guess stuff like wish boards don't work either. And Green Sun's Zenith must also suck. Give me a break. Bottom line, tutors are used to enable consistency and provide outs to difficult situations - IN ANY DECK. Just because noone is doing it in Dead Guy right now doesn't mean it's right to ignore it - again, when's the last time dead guy top 8'ed?

And Reanimate is a house when you run 10 discard spells too...Reanimate Thrun or Iona just once and all of a sudden it doesn't seem like such an odd choice. The beauty behind the 2-of in a tool-box approach is that it won't really even hurt you in a game against combo or something where reanimate isn't optimal....because it's just 2 cards.

again...not saying that everyone should run out and spend $5 on a set of beseech and vess (LOL) but honestly - why dismiss something so completely out of hand without at least looking at the card selection and asking questions first...or even going through the motions of loading it onto a program that can goldfish hands for you? Dismissing new ideas is how a deck stagnates.

[Greenpoe]

As for the bob vs Sign in blood comparison...if you really want you can play hawks and mystics and bob and just loose to firespout if you want - have fun with that. Honestly, you have to plan on seeing firespout and you simply cannot plan on making ANYONE discard it because of the pressense of Jace 2.0, Brainstorm and Top. Against a good Multi-color control player the deck simply folds without generating some sort of card advantage that doesn't depend on a 2/2 hanging out for multiple turns. If nothing else, sign in blood can ensure a turn 3 land drop and draw into things like Thoughtseize or duress. Sure Bob will *just win games* against people that don't bother with removal...but honestly against those people you can win with a grizly bear too.

Bob is the best creature in the format. You're underestimating the power of SoFI and/or SoFF +Stoneforge with Mother of Runes and Bob. That's a total of 10 ways to protect your Bob against a Firespout, and that's not even counting the 8-10 discard spells. It's not even just dekcs that don't bother with removal, but all the decks that only give 4 slots for spot removal. What if they don't draw one of those 4? Bob reads "kill me or win." Plus, once you drop an equipment, you can turn him into a serious threat, even a "protection from Jace and Firespout" threat with SoFI.

[CorpT]

Ok, I'm not saying Pharmacist has developed the end-all be-all dead guy list, but when's the last time dead guy top-8'ed a major event? Is it time for someone to think outside the box? sometimes you have to work through the stupid cards and the "chaff" (not shaff) to find that golden nugget that simply wins games.


Indy and San Jose? Seriously?

Beseech the Queen means you can't play Bob. I really don't think I should have to defend Bob on a competitive Legacy forum.

Good luck playing garbage decks. The deck is clearly playing sub-par cards. Maybe create a new thread somewhere else to discuss the amazing Beseech the Queen card. It has nothing to do with thinking outside the box or not testing. These are sub-par cards. If we had to test every single card, we'd still be working our way through Visions. Instead, we discard chaff and focus on good cards.

[Parax]

I was just about to mention this Greenpoe. Mom+Swords. And the deck DOES have win conditions. It has Nighthawk equiped and Serra Avenger Equiped. Once Equiped they both are out of Firespout range. If they get it off before you equip them, you still have Mom to keep them alive until you can get it.

You said yourself, tutors are great, thats what SFM is in here for. It tutors up the tool to get the job done.

Liliana tutor is horrible. You have to put it on the TOP of your library. And who really is thinking on turn 6 "Man i wish i had a discard spell" The list that you played was it his exact list? Or did you tweak the mana-base some? Cause that'd be the place where i would start.

[bakofried]

CorpT, we have our disagreements sometimes, like when we're discussing a certain mono-black midrange deck, but you do play plenty, more than me, and I totally agree with you on this. And I don't even play the deck, which means I'm relying on theorycraft, which means that said deck fails at the theorycraft point, let alone playtesting.

Goblins is a deck that has arguably much better options for cheating the curve than this one. The low count on lands for that deck is 21 - 17 if you don't count Wasteland. The average is 22. That is a deck packing Aether Vial, Goblin Lackey, and Goblin Warchief. To sum it up, you need more lands than that.
You're playing Vess in Legacy. Here's the thing: all of the planeswalkers have really good abilities, period. It's their cost that is prohibitive. If you gave me Vess at 3 or even 4 mana I would ride the Legacy train with her all night long. But she costs 5. She's competing with cards that are cheated into play, or are able to leverage such internal synergy, that they win the game or turn it around. Vess is neither of those two. The CA she provides is subpar, her ultimate is subpar, and her tutor ability is (guess what) subpar! In Standard, she may be worth it, extended, even. But she does not make the cut here.
Phyrexian Crusader, even in a non-poison deck, is something that I may understand. It's a house against Zoo, Goblins, and 4c Counterbalance. And it provides a decent (if slow) win-con. The problem is, they'll find a way to deal with it. After you've swung 3 or 4 times. And then you'll topdeck a non-poison creature. So, after a protracted resource battle, they still have 20 life, and you don't. You are now in the losing position. And don't say "but Vess tutors up a second!" because you do not run subpar cards to justify this need. That combo is nowhere near synergistic enough to warrant that.
Deck thinning has been debunked. If you can't deal, then happily run a subpar deck.
And I will happily report you for trolling if you cannot provide a well thought out and lengthy answer for the following question:
How is Sign in Blood a superior card than Dark Confidant? Let alone within the confines of this deck, how is Sign in Blood ever the competitive option when Bob is available?

[bokwinkle]

I was just about to mention this Greenpoe. Mom+Swords. And the deck DOES have win conditions. It has Nighthawk equiped and Serra Avenger Equiped. Once Equiped they both are out of Firespout range. If they get it off before you equip them, you still have Mom to keep them alive until you can get it.

You said yourself, tutors are great, thats what SFM is in here for. It tutors up the tool to get the job done.

Liliana tutor is horrible. You have to put it on the TOP of your library. And who really is thinking on turn 6 "Man i wish i had a discard spell" The list that you played was it his exact list? Or did you tweak the mana-base some? Cause that'd be the place where i would start.

I agree SFM is great, and I find it hillarious that a guy that said tutors are worthless in everything but combo was playing a maindeck tutor and bullet package.

After a multitude of fishing I tweaked the mana base and subbed some duress for verdicts to up my 1cmc spells and make my curve more realistic. I also did things like immediately ditching Beseech...lol. But after testing I understood WHY it was in there, which I couldn't figure out from fishing or just looking at the list. My point though was that I made plenty of use of Lilliana and sign in blood. I'd like to see the current dead guy lists find a way to play through archon and iona...

Again, not saying the list is optimaly, but I just don't understand how people can be so quick to dismiss ANY idea. Frankly if I can take a couple hours to test the deck without Bob I find it hard to believe that other people can't do the same. And we aren't testing every card in the format - we're testing what - 5 cards?

As for liliana - her tutor is great. Dead guy is control, getting to turn 6 isn't all that uncommon and getting exactly what you need to win at that point is helpful. Plus if you can do combat math you can quickly figure out if they need to swing out at Liliana or if you're just asking to be swung through and killed. She's a fantastic card...but again, not something I'd play with bob....so you have to start there. However, if you want to talk about late game tutor being useless...how about late game draw? If you play discard on turns 1 and 2, removal on turn 3...Bob doesn't see the board until turn 4 and doesn't draw you cards until turn 5, it isn't until turn 6 until he draws you the 2 cards that sign in blood gets you....and all that is without ANY cards to actually protect bob. If you play your protection before you play bob then you don't discard as much, or take more damage from creatures as you attempt to set-up...meaning bob's damage from his draw hurts even more.

I guess if you feel like you simply cannot play without bob then you need to drastically limit the card pool you use and therefor hamstring your deck and force an auto-loose to counterbalance strategies and a host of other issues. Bob is a great card - there's a reason he's expensive and played, but his use immediately restricts your options...which is fine if you don't want to do a lot of testing and tuning. But I thought this was the thread where testing and tuning was discussed...I guess the reality is that this is the thread where we all just talk about how great bob is...lol

Dead Guy in it's orign is based on mana denial, combined with the best discard in the format (thoughtseize and Hymn), combined with the best removal in the format (swords and Vindicate)...I think we can all agree with that premise. land destruction has become worse as a strategy in Legacy for a host of reasons so everyone is struggling to figure out what fills that void, while still maintaining the best discard with the best removal and maintaining the competitive edge.

In the deck's original form there was no need to protect bob because the land destruction and discard did it for you. Since the land destruction isn't viable and discard alone can't consistently protect bob alone most lists run a host of cards that are dedicated to protecting Bob - Mom, SoFI, SoFF, SFM, etc. I could make a case that these choices have even forced vial. Running cards to protect bob does not win you the game. Bob does NOT win you the game all on his own (despite people's comments)...he needs backup, the cards that he draws are what wins the game. When you include 10-20 cards to protect bob all you do is protect bob so that you can draw more cards to protect bob (taking damage the entire time).

What pharmacist has done is taken bob out the formulae in an attempt to still use the best discard and removal in the format and open the deck up to other options. With that in mind, his approach makes sense - some of his card choices are suspect, I agree, but reconsidering the approach to the deck is not wrong.

[Leto]

the thing is, I tested alot without Bob, in every Deck I made that was B(xxx). Simply cause I didn't have them and didn't want to spend the money, cause I thought it was overrated. After lending some from a friend and some testing in the Net I realized just how good he is. And yes, to play Bob dedicates how the rest of the Deck looks. But in my opinion he's worth it, he generates drastic CA+can swing for damage (with the high count on removal in the deck he connects quite often).

If you want to play more slowly/have a higher Curve you could play Arena. 1 Mana more, but far more resilient and lower lifeloss on high Curve's (flipping Tombstalker, Persecutor, FoW or Else sucks with Bob ;) ). That would be a viable option in my eyes, especially when you want to stall the game out. Would make Liliana better too, but you need to find ways to keep the whole Bunch of Aggro in check.

Why can Deadguy not play around Blazing Archon? We have plenty of Removal, for Iona the same but in two colours, if you have much Reanimator (here in Germany is not much Reanimator left, after MT-Bann, as I read) and fear her, add some Gravehate/Runed Halo/Brittle Effigy...


PS: Yes I failed on the Tutor-thing, I was just back from work and tired, shame on me

[bokwinkle]

Dead guy can play around archon - can you play around archon AND iona (naming white) on the board at the same time in game one? Good luck. Isolated incident...but still, I'm just trying to make a point that Sign in Blood and Lilliana are versatile cards that can get you out of pickle situations that stuff like Bob simply cannot.

One of my qualms with bob or Arena type effects is that they are easily dealt with by maindecked cards throughout the format and generally slow to yeild their CA - ESPECIALLY in dead-guy, because we really want to be landing our discard spells in the early turns when it matters most - not trying to resolve draw spells and make them stick to gain their advantage.

If the deck was aggro and it's goal was turn 1 Vial or Mom into turn 2 bob every game then things would be different. But if that is the goal then why do we run 7-8 removal spells and 8-10 discards spells? Generally I feel as though people are trying to force this deck into a counter-aggro strategy, trying to use discard spells as the countermagic - which doesn't work because discard is not a reactive control tactic...it's a proactive control tactic.

PS: I forgive you on the tutor thing...but it was funny.

[bokwinkle]

... And I will happily report you for trolling if you cannot provide a well thought out and lengthy answer for the following question:

How is Sign in Blood a superior card than Dark Confidant? Let alone within the confines of this deck, how is Sign in Blood ever the competitive option when Bob is available?

Sorry I missed this.

The hope it gets there approach:
T1: Discard
T2: Discard
T3: Vindicate
T4: Bob
T5: Draw a card from bob (assuming they didn't have removal)
T6: Draw Second card from bob (again, assuming they didn't have removal)

The "what about bob" approach:
T1: Vial
T2: Discard, Mom off vial
T3: Discard, Bob off Vial
T4: Draw a card from bob
T5: Draw a card from bob

Sign In blood:
T1: Discard
T2: Discard
T3: Vindicate
T4: Threat
T5: SiB, Threat

Sign in Blood alternate:
T1: Discard - Oh snap I'm playing against ANT!
T2: Discard
T3: threat
T4: Threat, SiB my opponent

The difference? With sign in blood I could inflict direct damage to a tendrils player faster OR play threats faster in the early turns rather than just setting up my draw spells. While you're using your turns to set up your draw engine with Bob, SiB allows you to use your turns to set up your win condition or simply apply pressure to your opponent.

Feel free to report me for suggesting that new ideas be playtested....lol.

[Leto]

Archon + Iona (white) = depends on what you hold, if Sword + Black Removal shoot down Iona first, sword Archon, only an Edict, play it and see what happes ;) when you dont have removal, throw out an Gatekeeper or Nighthawk, does the same. Don't see where this gets any more complicated as Deadguy is more capable of dealing with creatures than most decks^^ (Iona on black is in my opinion far more worse as you can play nothing but Swords)


The 2 damage on an Opponent are nice, but with Sorceryspeed its not good enough i think. In Instant it would be so great to fuck the Comboplayer who goes with AdNauseam to 2, but in Sorcery its subpar. And giving an Opponent (especially Comboplayer) 2 Cards for 2 Lifepoints is something, i wouldn't be happy about.

And the Argument that with Bob is easily dealt, doesn't go so well. Goyf is easily removed too. Doesn't bother all the Goyfplayers. Same goes for the vast amount of Critters. SiB lies full on CB, Spellsnare... its the same

[bokwinkle]

See....but that's the point, Goyf is not easilly dealt with - he doesn't roll over to firespout. Also the decks that he goes in are either threat heavy (a bunch of little aggro dudes) or counter heavy. He's usually at least a 3/4, and a 4/5 or 5/6 isn't all that uncommon, and he is the win condition, not a guy that might go find the win condition. When you pool your rescources to protect your draw spells you inherently have less room for resources that protect your win condition. I don't want to protect my draw spell, I want to protect my win con - my goal is not to draw cards, my goal is to win games.

I'm not saying that Bob is bad because "he dies to removal" I hate that argument -that's a dumb argument and I agree. I'm saying that the likelyhood of you gaining benefit from bob hinges on the fact that he won't die to removal in a late game situation - or you have to all but abandon the discard first strategy of dead-guy to take advantage of him. It's just counter-intuitive.

[Greenpoe]

Bokwinkle, you're saying that you have to choose between discard and playing Bob? That's like saying 4c CB has to choose between going aggro or control. The reality is that for many decks, you do have to choose between being the control player vs. the aggro player. Even Goblins sometimes has to resort to the control role (that's why they play Port). You say that you're relying on Bob not to die to removal in the lategame, but that's like saying Jace decks rely on Jace not to die after 2 turns. If you're staring down Jace or Bob, you have to kill it or they'll just mow you down in CA. Plus, Deadguy is fantastic at protecting Bob (again, discard+Mom+equipment package). It sounds like your basic argument is that Bob is too slow, but compare it to Eva Green. Eva Green is faster with a strong early/mid game while Deadguy thrives more toward the mid/late game (because of the equipment), but even Eva Green runs Bob. Heck, the most successful Affinity build I ever ran played Bob, and in that deck, you would often win by turn 3 or 4, but on the games you didn't, you generally had a weak hand OR a hand with a win-con that got countered/killed. Bob would either suck up a counter/removal that would hit Cranial Plating/Master of Etherium/etc., or he'd draw me cards so I could re-establish a win-condition. Even Vintage combo decks play Bob.

[CorpT]

My favorite part is the argument that Sign in Blood can shock someone but disregarding the fact that Bob can attack. It can even do 2 damage without letting the opponent draw cards! How novel!

[The Pharmacist]

My favorite part is the argument that Sign in Blood can shock someone but disregarding the fact that Bob can attack. It can even do 2 damage without letting the opponent draw cards! How novel!

So you attack with Bob? It must be nice to be able to play Bob and have it never die. Then your opponents must never play men because you can swing with him too.

This will be my last post in this thread for 2 reasons

1st no one in this thread wants to try new things

Edited. Threats of violence towards other members, joking or otherwise, are absolutely not tolerated here. Consider this an official warning. - zilla

[Zoomer3989]

So you attack with Bob? It must be nice to be able to play Bob and have it never die. Then your opponents must never play men because you can swing with him too.

This will be my last post in this thread for 2 reasons

1st no one in this thread wants to try new things

2nd If I keep reading CorpT post, I may really have to beat the shit out of him.

It's more the fact that your arguments are pretty weak and your card choices are so far out there that it is actually difficult to take them seriously. Have you actually posted results with your build? A tournament report or something?

The question I have with this thread is: if the Tarmogoyf splash is so good, why aren't we just playing Junk instead? It seems like a case of being a bad version of another deck, rather than an actual separate strategy.

[Leto]

@Pharmacist

Would be cool if you would explain your choices and strategy, rather than posting a pile and sayin its good and won games. Look how Bokwinkle does it, he ARGUES, nothing seen from you, that looks like you try too


I don't think Goyf is this huge in Deadguy, with Percy and Grunt we have strong Beater that smoke him up

[colo]

Dark Confidant is probably the best creature in the format. If your deck can afford to run him (due to not too punishing an average CMC, and overal synergy) and doesn't, chances are astonishingly high that you built it wrong - that is, with suboptimal cards in it.

[bokwinkle]

Bokwinkle, you're saying that you have to choose between discard and playing Bob? That's like saying 4c CB has to choose between going aggro or control. The reality is that for many decks, you do have to choose between being the control player vs. the aggro player. Even Goblins sometimes has to resort to the control role (that's why they play Port). You say that you're relying on Bob not to die to removal in the lategame, but that's like saying Jace decks rely on Jace not to die after 2 turns. If you're staring down Jace or Bob, you have to kill it or they'll just mow you down in CA. Plus, Deadguy is fantastic at protecting Bob (again, discard+Mom+equipment package). It sounds like your basic argument is that Bob is too slow...


Yes, this is where I'm going...sort of. My argument is that I have to make the decision between aggro and control, but bob is good at neither in this particular deck. I know this sounds rediculous since Bob is obviously a good card that does some wonderful things and I make it sound like he's just not good at all...but that's not my intent. I'll give a situation:

I need to be the aggro deck:

I run out bob early (turn 2 or something) to force some aggro following a T1 Thoughtseize. Now, I have a bear to beat with that may draw me some cards. However, what i draw is one of 4 things - Protection for my bear, discard, removal, or Land. You see, bob is not a win-con. Playing an early bob just puts me in a situation where I can try and force control harder...it doesn't signficantly advance me into an aggressive board position.

If I need to be the control deck:

I run out my discard and removal early and the play bob late (turn 4 or 5 or something). My opponent has seen between 11 and 20 cards (depending on match-up) in order to get the one piece of removal he needs before I can establish the protection for bob.

Now, if I'm playing against an aggressive deck I'm probably facing down a board of creatures and my life total is probably already depleated from attacks and/or thoughtseize, so ripping any 2+ CMC card from bob is goign to suck pretty hard, so bob puts me in a pickle to play a very close game - even getting thoughtseize is a lighting bolt.... If i'm playing against a control deck then chances are they have found at least one piece of removal, meaning I won't be seeing the extra cards I need to fight a top-deck war against a deck with better card quality.

You see when I play SiB over bob I also gain all of the spots in the deck that are currently being used to protect bob - so I can make the deck more threat dense and versatile and get more garunteed draw of those cards regardless of what my opponent is playing - putting me in a better situation to play either aggro OR control. With bob I have basically one choice - protect bob.

As for CorpT, the argument is not that SiB is better than Bob because it can shock. The argument is that SiB is better than Night's Whisper because it can shock. The argument that SiB is situationally better than bob is because you're garunteed 2 cards for less life loss with no worry about the fragility of the creature - therefore opening your deck up for more options - and that is only a very miniscule part of the argument. If you didn't have such a financial and emmotial tie to any particular card, and an insistence that you're deck is the end-all be-all of Dead-Guy lists then you could actually take a couple minutes to read the posts.

As to Pharmacist's non-responsiveness regarding his list. He posted it looking for input. Not all people have the disposition to sit and argue card choices with people that regard them as idiots before they even evaluate the deck. Sometimes people are just going to get pissed off and leave. He offered the ideas, what everyone does with them is what separates winning players from people who just play the same list week after week into mediocrity.

This thread is the most viewed active thread on the source among established lists, and yet the changes in the list are minimal at best. there is so much time and man-power here that it's not unreasonable to question EVERYTHING. Obviously starting with questioning Bob is tough nut - there is noone posting here that doesn't think the card is fantastic. Force of will is good too...but it doesn't belong in every blue deck.

[CorpT]

As for CorpT, the argument is not that SiB is better than Bob because it can shock. The argument is that SiB is better than Night's Whisper because it can shock. The argument that SiB is situationally better than bob is because you're garunteed 2 cards for less life loss with no worry about the fragility of the creature - therefore opening your deck up for more options - and that is only a very miniscule part of the argument. If you didn't have such a financial and emmotial tie to any particular card, and an insistence that you're deck is the end-all be-all of Dead-Guy lists then you could actually take a couple minutes to read the posts.


I have no idea what you're talking about. I have no financial or emotional tie to anything in the deck. I am perfectly willing to try new things. I'm not willing to try obviously sub-par cards.

Here's my problem with SiB. When I want CA, I want lots of CA. SiB doesn't do that. For 2 mana, it draws you one extra card. With Bob, not only can I Vial it in for 0 mana (at end of turn no-less to dodge some removal), but it keeps drawing me cards.

Let's look at real MUs instead of hypothetical aggro or control MUs.

CB/Top: This is where Bob is the best. No question. After Vial, Bob is the card I want to land against CB. They have some CA, but we can have as much or more. CA is what wins this MU. SiB is barely CA. Bob is real CA. And can be Vialed in.

Goblins: This is another grind. They can explode, but it doesn't happen as often as people make it out to be. Most of the time it's a Ringleader grind. Guess what, CA is good in a grind. SiB looks pretty stupid when compared to Ringleader. Additionally, Bob can block and kill a Piledriver. Yes, they can kill it, but getting 1 card isn't the answer. Sticking one and getting lots of cards is.

Combo: These are difficult to lump together, but the general idea is to get hate and then a quick clock. Bob doesn't exactly shine here, but neither does SiB. My ideal start to a combo MU is a Vial into Thoughtseize/Wasteland. Outside of that, it's Thoughtseize into some beats. Dark Confidant isn't the best here, but it is a beater that provides more beaters or hate.

Rock: Again, CA is the key here. Yes, Bob dies. But if/when it doesn't, it wins games.

I think that's the point that everyone is trying to make. Bob wins games when he sticks. So, if they have removal, you spent either a turn with Vial or 2 mana and they spent some amount of mana and a card. Usually that's a fair trade. But if they don't have removal, the card drawing will enable you to win. I have no idea how or why you think Bob isn't a win condition. He certainly lets me win games. CA wins games. SiB draws one whole extra card for 2 mana. That doesn't win games.

[Leto]

ok, assuming you see SiB in the Spot of Bob, reducing the total Creaturecount to 12 (?) (Gatekeeper, Nighthawk, and?)

i would like to see a list, that would be much better to discuss, cause we both construct here examples in our favor, getting no step forward^^

[bokwinkle]

Ok, after doing some research on the recent (January) winning deadguy lists that CorpT so kindly point out there are a few things I want to point out (that many of you may already know).

First: The winning lists are no longer running mass discard...no Hymn, only Thoughtseize, and maybe a couple of IoK's and perhaps a couple of duress in the board. So instead of the 8-10 that the list originally ran, now they run 4-6 1cmc discard spells.

Next: Sinkhole has been replaced by wasteland - which makes perfect sense.

Last: with the ellimination of sinkhole and discard from the lists they now run 20+ creatures (Mom, Bob, Serra Avenger Or Nighthawk, SfM, and Sculler). It's an aggro list - which as I said above, is good for bob. He's good in a threat-dense deck, because you can turn him sideways and his draws can accellerate you into aggro. Also the ellimination of hymn means that T2 is reserved for bob and forcing aggro strategem. It's clean, simple aggro - and it's nowhere near the original decklist...but it wins.

I guess I'm just not satisfied with Pure Aggro and I still have a desire to play Hymn.

[Zoomer3989]

Ok, after doing some research on the recent (January) winning deadguy lists that CorpT so kindly point out there are a few things I want to point out (that many of you may already know).

First: The winning lists are no longer running mass discard...no Hymn, only Thoughtseize, and maybe a couple of IoK's and perhaps a couple of duress in the board. So instead of the 8-10 that the list originally ran, now they run 4-6 1cmc discard spells.

Next: Sinkhole has been replaced by wasteland - which makes perfect sense.

Last: with the ellimination of sinkhole and discard from the lists they now run 20+ creatures (Mom, Bob, Serra Avenger Or Nighthawk, SfM, and Sculler). It's an aggro list - which as I said above, is good for bob. He's good in a threat-dense deck, because you can turn him sideways and his draws can accellerate you into aggro. Also the ellimination of hymn means that T2 is reserved for bob and forcing aggro strategem. It's clean, simple aggro - and it's nowhere near the original decklist...but it wins.

I guess I'm just not satisfied with Pure Aggro and I still have a desire to play Hymn.

I think part of the problem is that DGA is not really designed as an Aggro Deck or Control Deck - in reality, it is a Tempo deck that has attributes of the former ideas, yet runs enough goodstuff cards to do either job adequately.

The reason why this deck is effective is that it actually can do both. You can open with Mom and Vial in Tidehollows and use removal, or you can immediately Stoneforge into Swords and a stick to equip to, or it can just play creatures, and out card-advantage people with Bob and Swords.

[CorpT]

IMO, the discard package should be:
4x Thoughtseize
4x Tidehollow Sculler

Sculler also has the advantage of not only being able to be Vialed in during their draw step or end step, but also hiding things outside of their GY and hand. That was very big against Dredge as a dredger in the yard is bad, but amazing under a Sculler.

The problem with Hymn and Sinkhole is that they are not always the right card for the situation. You remember those games where the Sinkhole blew someone out of the game, but forget the games where you spent a whole turn and 2 mana doing basically nothing as they had plenty of land in their hand. The same thing with Hymn. Sometimes you crush their hand and ride it home. Other times you draw it after they've played their threat you can't deal with, and it's a 2 cmc stuck in your hand doing nothing. The variance is my problem with those cards. You have no control over how many lands they draw so it is very hard to judge if Sinkhole will be useful or not.

The recent BW lists aren't pure aggro either though. They're built on being a balanced deck that has consistent draws and plenty of CA.

You play enough removal to deal with threats and push your guys through. You play enough disruption to stop combo and control decks. You play enough CA to grind out mid range decks. You play enough threats to aggro everyone quickly.

IMO, that's what makes this deck so good. It's not about being the best at destroying someone's hand. It's about being balanced so you can do all of them well enough. The key to that is bringing beats with everything which is why I play Goyf. You need to kill quickly so the disruption you play is enough, but you're not an aggro deck like Zoo either. If you play it like that, you probably won't have much success either.

[Parax]

Just to point out that mom (I recommend if you have two out) can create Psedo-Evasion by giving bob protection and just swinging through a one colored army. It happens more than you think.

Befor i got hooked on this, i was a HUGE UWT fan, but have found that this is a deck that takes care of business better than UWT. (I miss Vexing Sphinx, but we do have Bob).

CorpT's list is interesting, because i'm still not sold on Vial. Perhaps you can help me with this as it seems you play a Vial list. Do you use the Vials to play the extra stuff you draw? Is that your reasoning behind them?

[Spacemagic]

I'm of the 12 disruption spell camp, especially since combo will be on the rise for a bit
4x thoughtseize
4x hymn to tourach
4x tidehollow sculler

@ the Tarmogoyf argument- if you wanna play goyf, may as well play BWG/Junk/Rock/Dark Horizons (why does this deck have 4 names???), personally i like Reliquary over goyf, but there's no reason to dilute the 2 color manabase with one card when you can change 10 cards and play Rock or go Junk & Taxes...

back to my posts a couple pages back---what does everyone use to battle zoo?? vampire nighthawk? my problem is that the zoo player in my playgroup also plays NO/PRO combo in it...techy bastard

what does everyone run in theire SB??

i'm looking at
3x extirpate
3x ethersworn canonist
3x yixlid jailer
2x jotun grunt
2x diabolic edict
2x pithing needle

other cards considered: runed halo, perish, duress, peacekeeper, silence/orim's chant, cop:red, wrath of god/damnation, kitchen finks, engineered plague, mindbreak trap, ravenous trap

[koba]

I am experimenting with an WBG deck as well. I wanted to play the best creatures I could think of in a deck with vial and came up with this thing:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark confidant
3 Mother of runes
3 Stoneforge mystic
4 Knight of the reliquary
4 Tidehollow sculler

4 Thoughtseize
2 Vindicate
1 Umezawa’s jitte
1 Sword of fire and ice
4 Swords to plowshares
4 Aether vial

4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Horizon canopy
3 Scrubland
1 Savannah
2 Bayou
4 Marsh flats
2 Verdant catacombs
2 Windswept heath

It is greedy because green is more than just a light splash, but the deck has proven to be quite powerful so far. IMO knights are just too powerful not to play if you’re playing with green anyway. All the potential replacements pale in comparison. I am not sure about the two vindicate slots; they could be anything from qasali pridemages, an extra land and sword, some more discard, etcetera…
Sideboard is a combination of combo hate (canonists and discard), graveyard hate, creature hate and stuff that can blow up enchantments.

Anyone tried out something like this (CorpT?) or has something to say about it? (besides pointing out that I may as well play junk).

[bokwinkle]

Ok, I have a few more thoughts here.

First off, I'm now firmly in the 22 land camp, and firmly against splashing for a third color. Wasteland is the most played card in the format, and playing colored spells can already be difficult with 4 wastelands. You can't dodge wasteland, and you may be able to play around it, but adding the third color really isn't necessary - Goyf is a house and all, but we really just need someone to carry a big stick - and honestly I'd rather have a flyer do that anyway...which there is no shortage of in black and white.

However, if I play 22 lands I dont' think I can play vial - which is fine with me, I hate drawing late-game vials or being so easilly shut out by pithing needle - Which they are already bound to board in against wasteland, Mom, and fetch lands. Plus it leaves me the freedom to play Nighthawk without worrying about impacting synergy on a card I don't really like anyway. Also it leaves 2 more spots to include those last 2 1cmc discard spells that I want to fill out my curve and disruption package. Generally I loose some ability to play through control and my scullers loose some functionallity, but I feel like just playing Nighthawk is enough to make up for that - I really think he is that good. The reasoning is my own, but the strategy is already established in one of the winning lists.

[CorpT]

I think there are a few common decision points and a few things that are universal when looking at this deck:

Universal:
4x Dark Confidant
3-4x Mother of Runes
3-4x Stoneforge Mystic
2-3x Equipment w/1 Jitte
4x Wasteland
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Thoughtseize

These are the cards that I've seen that are almost in all the decks and powerful enough to span all metas.

Decisions:
3rd Color (aka Green):
Pros: Tarmogoyf, Knight of the Reliquary, sideboard options like Gaddock Teeg, Krosan Grip, etc...
Cons: Weaker mana base and more susceptibility to Wasteland.
IMO: Worth it. The mana base is very lightly impacted because the splash is fairly light. It becomes even easier with Vials. Additionally, Goyf and KotR allow you to kill quickly so you can race creature and combo decks.

Vials:
Pros: Allows you to work around Counter Balance. Allows you to play curve out while disrupting at the same time.
Cons: Weak top deck late in the game.
IMO: Worth it. One of the most powerful cards in Legacy right now. The ability to curve out so well in the early game by playing creatures and disruption while still having mana to equip. The downside of being a bad late game top deck is tempered by the fact that we're hopefully out card advantaging them with Bob and/or Equipment.

Tidehollow Sculler:
Pros: Hand disruption and body.
Cons: Not permanent hand disruption.
IMO: Worth it. Improved tremendously by Vial. Not as impressive without Vial, but still a good call most of the time.

Vampire Nighthawk:
Pros: Flier, Lifelink, Deathtouch.
Cons: 2/3 for 3.
IMO: Possible, but not worth it. Personally, I like to keep my Vials active by sticking with 2 drops in the creature slot.

Knight of the Reliquary:
Pros: Huge beater. Allows for running of specialty land (Maze, Karakas, Horizon Canopy)
Cons: Requires green splash. Three drop instead of two drops. No evasion.
IMO: Not worth it. This is probably the card I would most go to a 3 drop for. Again, for me this comes down to a Vial issue.

Vindicate:
Pros: Kills anything. Anything.
Cons: That's all it does. Three mana.
IMO: I'm playing 2 now and they've been fine. I don't often need them, but they are generally nice when I get them. Not sure what I would play in their place. Possibly Qasali Pridemage.

Serra Avenger:
Pros: Flys. Vigilance. 3/3 for 2.
Cons: Hard to play natural for both WW and turn restriction.
IMO: Ok, but must play Vials to be truly effective. Worse in a 3 color deck as well.

Equipment Package:
Umezawa's Jitte
Sword of Fire and Ice
Sword of Light and Shadow
Sword of Feast and Famine

Jitte: Cannot imagine the deck without it.
SoFaI: IMO, the best equipment. Drawing cards and extra, assignable damage is great. Protections are not particularly important except against Firespout, Vendillion Clique and Jace.
SoLaS: Good against Swords. Better protections (aka Swords), but not as useful of abilities. Creatures tend to not to go to GY. Life gain is useful, but 3 at a time is not a lot.
SoFaF: Weakest abilities, but good protections. Pro-Tarmogoyf is very powerful.

Land Count:
20: IMO too few even with 2 Colors or Vial.
21: IMO Possible with Vial and/or 2 Colors.
22: IMO Better without Vial and/or more 3 drops, especially KotR.
23: IMO Probably too much unless a significant amount of specialty lands like Maze, Karakas, etc...

Fringe cards:
Qasali Pridemage: Exalted and ability to destroy Artifacts and Enchantments is powerful. Better with Vial. Still a Creature. Potentially hard to cast.
Hymn to Tourach: IMO, very weak. BB requirement is steep. Bad top deck. Powerful, but unreliable.
Sinkhole: Even worse than Hymn for all the same reasons.
Squadron Hawk: Testing this out. I really like the CA engine. An unrestrictive, easy to cast flier on 2 fits with my keep-all-creatures-on-2 theme.

Those are the cards as I see them. I can certainly understand the arguments for cards like Knight and Nighthawk, but IMO, the 3rd color is well worth it. I am completely sold on Vials as well. They have been crucial in both getting through CounterTop and making the mana work so much better. Keeping my creatures on 2 means that I can play without Vial, but everything is much better with it.

[Spacemagic]

Great write-up, just a few things im looking at:

Slow combo is good right now (ANT, Tide, Show) which means hymn is good right now.
Rock is good right now because it has game against slow combo.
We have a good matchup vs. Rock and we can play hymn.
We should play hymn at the moment.

Counterbalance is in decline right now due to the diverse metagame-it can't focus on particular "top decks"
Aether Vial is good vs. counterbalance, but doesn't play well with Vampire Nighthawk.
Serra Avenger is a tough call w/o Aether Vial.
Squadron Hawk is evasive, can carry equipment, and provides C/A.
We should drop Vial and Avengers for now and run twin 'hawks (NightHAWK and squadron HAWK) you like that huh, lol

realize these are metagame observations people, this is my point of view and i prefer vial+avenger+hymn all in my MD...

[CorpT]

I can definitely see arguments for Hymn, but I'm still not sure about it. It's unreliablity is my issue with it. That being said, I think that Vial makes Hymn even better. The ability to drop a Vial on turn 1 and Hymn on turn 2 is exceedingly powerful. Turn 1 Thoughtseize, Turn 2 Hymn sounds powerful, but you have literally nothing but land on the board. Without pressure, slow combo like High Tide has plenty of time to build their hand back up. But, if you've got a Vial, you can start laying creatures quickly to keep the pressure up while disrupting them at the same time. IMO, Vial isn't just an anti-CB card, but also an amazing Tempo card.

I really like Hawk. It's been very powerful for me. Not only does it get itself out of the deck to help with Bob activations, but it carries equipment very well. I like going up to a 3/3 SFM/Equip split with Hawk to make sure that I always have an equipment for him.

[bokwinkle]

I'm actually debating sideboard Vials against counterbalance. Against any other match-up the card just seems sub-par to me. I know it's good with sculler, but honestly I'm already finding myself wanting to go to 3 scullers.

However, if I were to play vial I'd probably play a couple Jotun Grunt as well - he plays really well with Squadron Hawk while still fitting in nicely in the 2 cmc spot and avoiding firespout. Plus he adds some main-deck utility against grave-happy decks like dredge and reanimator - who both have issues dealing with creatures.

I'm firmly in the camp of squadron hawk over serra avenger at this point...with or without vial. The card advantage is really all I'm looking for - as long as the creature can carry a stick I don't really care. Getting a dude into play early and swinging is pretty key. Waiting for a vial activation on turn 3 or waiting for a the turns restriction to pass to turn 4 is simply a pain in the rear end and is contradictory in purpose because it upsets our tempo...which is really all we have.

Hymn...I'm back and forth on. I really like it, but it changes the face of the deck a bit and really messes with the mana base. When the deck originally ran Hymn there were almost no white cards in it...now at least 1/2 of the deck is white and the mana base has changed substantially. At this point I'd consider verdict as a poor substitue, but I don't think I could support hymn.

[Zoomer3989]

Is this in the build with Goyf? And if so, what did you cut to fit in Squadron Hawks?

The version I'm running is similar to Gene R.'s build with Vial/Avenger, but I cut the Edicts for more creatures. I like the Goyf idea, but wouldn't Savannahs be more useful then Bayou?

In regards to Hawk, I really like being able to Vial in a 3/3 flyer or 4/4 in against something like Merfolk or Goblins to act as free removal, but the card advantage is important. I'd like to try running both Avenger and Hawk.

[CorpT]

However, if I were to play vial I'd probably play a couple Jotun Grunt as well - he plays really well with Squadron Hawk while still fitting in nicely in the 2 cmc spot and avoiding firespout. Plus he adds some main-deck utility against grave-happy decks like dredge and reanimator - who both have issues dealing with creatures.

That's a really awesome point. I had started with Grunt and ended up a little disappointed in them because they kept dying on me. But that was before I tried Hawk. I think I'm going to go back and try them again. That's just an awesome interaction.


I'm firmly in the camp of squadron hawk over serra avenger at this point...with or without vial. The card advantage is really all I'm looking for - as long as the creature can carry a stick I don't really care. Getting a dude into play early and swinging is pretty key. Waiting for a vial activation on turn 3 or waiting for a the turns restriction to pass to turn 4 is simply a pain in the rear end and is contradictory in purpose because it upsets our tempo...which is really all we have.

Agreed.



Is this in the build with Goyf? And if so, what did you cut to fit in Squadron Hawks?

The version I'm running is similar to Gene R.'s build with Vial/Avenger, but I cut the Edicts for more creatures. I like the Goyf idea, but wouldn't Savannahs be more useful then Bayou?

In regards to Hawk, I really like being able to Vial in a 3/3 flyer or 4/4 in against something like Merfolk or Goblins to act as free removal, but the card advantage is important. I'd like to try running both Avenger and Hawk.

This is my current list:

3 Mother of Runes
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Squadron Hawk
3 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Aether Vial
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vindicate
1 Umezawe's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

4 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
4 Scrubland
1 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland


Possible considerations:
-2 Vindicate
+2 Qasali Pridemage

Something for Grunt? Not sure what yet.

[bokwinkle]

That's a really awesome point. I had started with Grunt and ended up a little disappointed in them because they kept dying on me. But that was before I tried Hawk. I think I'm going to go back and try them again. That's just an awesome interaction...

Yeah, I'd been playtesting Grunt without Vial and just generally was dissapointed with them - Mostly because they have similar disadvantages to avenger because of their play restrictions, and I already mentioned that I felt play restrictions are bad for this deck. I feel like a 2-of is about as much as I'd run. I like the synergy, but I feel like unless you can drop them on your opponent's end step and avoid sorcery speed removal they will never have a chance to use their ability or attack. Ultimately you just have to playtest them extensively.



...Something for Grunt? Not sure what yet.

He's a 4/4 - honestly, he takes the goyf spot IMHO, and you ramp up to 4 SfM's and add another removal spell (probably vindicate).

One other thing...I'm finding Go for the Throat to be better than Edict. There's just too many birds and or Hierarch's running around for my taste to run edict. Also, it's better against the goblin and merfolk matchup to deal with lords and/or siege-gang. The only match-ups where I see Edict helpful are against decks that run Emmy...but I generally feel those are just matchups we have to dodge at this point...I feel we simply cannot pack enough discard and hate for those decks.

[TossUsToLions]

Grunt with Tarmogoyf is awful synergy. I like Grunt a lot in the b/w version, but when splashing green, i would avoid him

[bokwinkle]

It only seems like aweful synergy, but the reality is that if either of them stay on the board then you are winning, so it doesn't really matter. However, I don't think there is room for both of them.

[deezy]

I cant beleive people are actually considering squadren hawk....lol and disscussing dropping bob in this thread...lol....WACK!!!
That s a trip..I didnt get into legacy to play squadren hawks...What happens when they keep you off you equipment and stick a fatty what the hell is a squadren hawk gonna do...Its not all about card advantage people its card power...And hawk is weak....Bob is powerhouse he must be answered.....plus you run equip so he can be a threat...

[bokwinkle]

even if they keep you off equipment you can drop 2-3 hawks a turn between vial and lands - and noone plays significant flyers in legacy...so they still put your opponent on a clock. If you didn't start playing legacy to play hawks that's fine...don't.

As for the dropping of bob - if you don't question everything the deck will stagnate...end of story.

[deezy]

even if they keep you off equipment you can drop 2-3 hawks a turn between vial and lands - and noone plays significant flyers in legacy...so they still put your opponent on a clock. If you didn't start playing legacy to play hawks that's fine...don't.

As for the dropping of bob - if you don't question everything the deck will stagnate...end of story.

3 hawks will put the opponent on like a 20 turn clock one ass kicker puts them back on top...And all you got is 3 turns to chump while you scramble to find something to answer with...I applaude the pushing developemental boundries but at the same time we are talking about a squadren hawk..The deck already has problems finishing without equipment and hawk would just compound the problem...Just my opinion....

[bokwinkle]

First off, it's very hard to keep us off of equipment if we run 3-4 pieces plus 3-4 Stoneforge. Secondly, our finishers are limited by Bob and or the need to play around wasteland. Our options are really limited to Serra Avenger unless we dip to a third color - and if someone drops a goyf on t2 on the play and I have a hand full of land, Avenger, Sculler, Discard, Bob, Stonforge Mystic I'm simly going to loose. Even Avenger is a chump blocker against goyf.

and 4 1/1's isn't a 20 turn clock - it's a 5 turn clock - assuming you have -0- equipment and they haven't taken any damage..which is never the case. Also, pulling together a few turns with chump blockers can also give you several extra draws with bob or you can simply draw answers or additional threats because the deck is loaded with answers (8 or 9 is pretty common).

[Leto]

I agree with deezy here, I don't think that gettin 3 poor Creatures in your hand after dropping 1 poor Creature in the important CC2-Section is the top play. If you want 1/1-Flyer, get Bitterblossom, spits out a flyer a turn for 1 Life and blocks ol' bad Tarmogoyf til the game is over (by the way never had this big problems with goyf, Deadguy has enough bullets for him).

[deezy]

thing is your gonna sink 8 mana and multiple turns into 4 1/1 flyers its just not good enough...atleast avenger is 3/3 and has vigilance...
And everyone one of your equipment can be shut down by a null rod so its really not that hard to keep you off it...That card is gonna see some board play due to the rise in midrange aggro decks trying to utilize equipment and affinity...
Ands its not gonna be easy to get rid of if theyre playing control or dissruption exspecially if you are one of the guys only running 3 vindicates...You need a real threat...
Hell my buddy mentioned spectral linx and even he is better than hawk...He has pro green and regenerates...

[bokwinkle]

Ok...let me use a more common example.

You have a piece of equipment on the board and one creature in hand - your opponent has one piece of removal in hand.

If that one creature is not squadron Hawk you're f'd.

Squadron hawk forces your opponent to answer your creature AND your equipment. Avenger give your opponent a multitude of tempo advantages in addition to opeing up to leaving your equipment on the board doing nothing.

I understand that your argument is that people will now just answer the equipment instead...however, after one game of playing people will not know that they just have to answer the equipment, and also it's not like they can board out their removal since you still play bob and sculler and a nighthawk.

[Mr. Safety]

Aether Vial makes Squadron Hawk good...you have to look at them together, IMHO. When you are gettinga FREE 1/1 flyer that also fishes out 3 more FREE 1/1 flyers and puts them into your hand? Nice. Aether Vial is the cats ass in Deadguy, no doubt. Getting dudes for free and then getting 3 more in hand means you can be assured you have a dude to equip, which is what the deck needs: a dude to equip. It also has built in evasion, which Deadguy Ale has a problem with (Bob and Mystic both have this problem un-equipped.) Solid pick IMHO.

I'd be really interested to see what Stillmoon Cavalier could do for this deck. It has pro: B + W right out of the gate, can be equipped, and can be pumped (making it a great use of late-game mana) It has protection from all non-burn sources of removal in the format, including the 2 best (Swords/Path) and the runners up (Smother/Terminate). I'd be interested to see what he could do for the deck.

I also think that Jotun Grunt is a somewhat better choice than Serra Avenger. You can support it fairly weill by utilizing early game disruption (Wasteland, Thoughtsieze) and fetchlands, and it can control/profitable trade with other early threats (Wild Nacatl, sometimes Goyf, Goblin Lackey) Getting cards back into your deck via Grunt + fetchlandd shuffle means Bob can really give fresh options every turn. Not to mention it shrinks goyf to profitably block/trade and hoses threshold. Probably a better 'risky' play than Serra Avenger, but both seem decent.

[TheArchitect]

Granted I haven't tested him at all, Squadron hawk just seems inferior to bitterblossom. Bitterblossom is a single turn, 1 time investment of 2 mana where squadron hawk is going to take 8 mana or 4 turns with vial. In a longer game bitterblossom will get you more 1/1 fliers and you can even have multiple bitterblossoms out at once but you will never get more than 4 squadron hawks.

Squadron hawk has the advantage of not putting all your eggs in one basket but I think if im going to cost 8 mana to get 4 power, I'd rather just invest my mana in a basket that will never drop (something that can't be removed easily). A 2 drop with shroud, or protection could fill this role but that will unlikely amount to 4 power. Thats why I think bitterblossom is probably a better option, vindicate and QPM are about the only MD enchantment hate most decks run so your chances of having a unanswered bitterblossom I think are pretty good.

I like the idea of having something that can poop out little guys that don't care about removal, but personally I think elspeth 1.0 is probably the best for the job, then bitterblossom seems like a really solid choice too and then squadron hawk is kinda meh.

[colo]

Stillmoon is amazing against anything that isn't red. I used to run it as a three-of back when Reanimator was huge, and its versatility and power is truly underestimated. My cousin recently won a match he had actually fubared two turns earlier by topdecking a Stillmoon with my borrowed Pikula list against a single Elspeth (plus Token) on his opp's side. Pro-white and the turn-on-evasion really are strong.

[Mr. Safety]

Granted I haven't tested him at all, Squadron hawk just seems inferior to bitterblossom. Bitterblossom is a single turn, 1 time investment of 2 mana where squadron hawk is going to take 8 mana or 4 turns with vial. In a longer game bitterblossom will get you more 1/1 fliers and you can even have multiple bitterblossoms out at once but you will never get more than 4 squadron hawks.

Squadron hawk has the advantage of not putting all your eggs in one basket but I think if im going to cost 8 mana to get 4 power, I'd rather just invest my mana in a basket that will never drop (something that can't be removed easily). A 2 drop with shroud, or protection could fill this role but that will unlikely amount to 4 power. Thats why I think bitterblossom is probably a better option, vindicate and QPM are about the only MD enchantment hate most decks run so your chances of having a unanswered bitterblossom I think are pretty good.

I like the idea of having something that can poop out little guys that don't care about removal, but personally I think elspeth 1.0 is probably the best for the job, then bitterblossom seems like a really solid choice too and then squadron hawk is kinda meh.

The difference is that Bitterblossom is NOT a late game option. I have been playing Faeries in legacy for awhile now (trying anyways, lol) and Bitterblossom is ONLY good in the early game, or in the control matchup. Squadron Hawk, on the other hand, would be good at all stages of the game. Remember that I qualified my remark by saying that Aether Vial makes it good...it isn't good in a vaccuum. You need it to be free, and to be able to get the other 3 in hand for free. This thins your deck and allows you several opportunities to get an equipped offense going.

Also, I would say the amount of times I've had 2 Bitterblossoms on the table at once was very rare...it is usually just too risky. You usually want to land one and let it do it's thing while you concentrate on controlling the board or setting up your offense/equipments with your mana. Playing a second one is usually more risk than it's worth. That's just been my experience, take it or leave it.

@colo: yeah, Stillmoon is criminally underplayed ATM...

[CorpT]

Bitterblossom has the additional advantage of not needing to be run as a 4 of. It has the downside of requiring 2 turns to be useful though.

The way I see it:

Bitterblossom:
Pros: Continuously generates creatures without mana investment. Does not need to be run as a 4x.
Cons: Costs life. Slower to come on line. Cannot be vialed in. Can be removed.

Squadron Hawk:
Pros: Immediately active. Reduces 2cmc in deck for Bob triggers. Can be vialed in. Potential great interactions with Grunt.
Cons: Drawing multiples is pretty bad. Costs mana/vial activations to play.

For all the anti-Hawk folk out there, I was surprised how well Hawk worked for me. I understand the arguments against Hawk because Hawk does look pretty silly. But I'm playing this pretty much as an equipment deck. In that case, Hawk shines. I do have some concerns about Bitterblossom chewing up life, but willing to give it a try. IMO, the best part about it is that I don't have to run it as a 4x. I'll probably try 3x Bitterblossom this week and see how it does.

[Spacemagic]

squadron hawk forces you to overcommit to the board or get set back by disruption. you play 1, then draw 3. If you hold them, they will be hit with discard. if you play them out to get a fast clock you set yourself up for Engineered Explosives/Pernicious Deed shenanigans. squadron hawk is a 1/1 flyer for 1W that gets you 3 more 1/1 fliers for 3WWW. thats 4WWWW for FOUR 1/1 FLIERS. thats shit. play Ranger of Eos if you want C/A. you can at least go get 2 Moms that way.

aether vial it in!! then you get 4 free creatures!!!. have fun with that. I'll vial in my serra avengers and go to work on your face.

don't use the "but if i put equipment on it, and it doesn't get answered..." argument. thats shit too. ANY creature w/ at least 1 power unanswered will eventually win the game with no roadblocks.

bad squadron hawk is bad. 4 bad squadron hawks is still bad.

[CorpT]

They're going to Therapy you? I'm ok with that. It means something else isn't getting Therapied. I like having Hawk in my hand for a Hymn.

It's really not as bad as you're making it out.

I'm not sure how Serra Avenger is any better against EE or Deed than Haw though...

[InResponseForceOfWill]

Does anyone here run Vial AND Gatekeeper? I want both, but they're ugly together. :(

[Spacemagic]

a single avenger is an equal clock to three squadron hawks. three for 1 vs 1 for 1. thats how it's better.

[Mr. Safety]

Hawk gives you consistency. So you have 3 hawks in hand...what makes you think you need to play them all? They are now in your hand rather than randomly in your library. If your board get's P-Deeded, guess what...you need a creature so you can get your strategy going again. Oh yeah, I have 3 just waiting in my hand...

Not to mention it's a seemingly 'bad' play...meaning it won't get Sword-ed or FoW-ed. If it DOES, well, that's great! Now your important spells can get into the game.

Deadguy Ale isn't a FAST deck...it's a TEMPO deck. You want to be disrupting your opponent and controlling the board in the early game, not worrying about how many threats you have. You eventually need a threat to equip and attack with...but your disruption buys you the time to do it.

That being said...I wouldn't leave Serra Avenger out. It's just really good when Vial-ed into play. I would have to agree that Serra Avenger is better (in a vacuum).

Bitterblossom vs. Squadron Hawk would probably have to be a meta-game call IMHO. Neither is better than the other, it's just what you need to accomplish in the majority of your matchups. Bob + Bitterblossom could net a pile of life loss that you do to yourself...in an aggro heavy metagame, this would be suicide, and not in a good 'Suicide Black' kind of way.

[ForlornEgoist]

Does anyone here run Vial AND Gatekeeper? I want both, but they're ugly together. :( There wouldn't be a point. Gatekeeper's sac effect is dependant on it's kicker cost being paid. If you Vial it in, you're not paying the kicker hence no sac effect. Granted you could still run it with the plan of hard casting it, but the arguments against doing such in the past have been that while we reasonably can cast BBB, often times we're stuck on a Waste or need to fetch out white sources, so BBB isn't always something we want to see. Not that you couldn't run it, mind you, but unless your meta is rampant with Show and Tell I wouldn't suggest against it.

Forlorn Egoist

[Mr. Safety]

There wouldn't be a point. Gatekeeper's sac effect is dependant on it's kicker cost being paid. If you Vial it in, you're not paying the kicker hence no sac effect. Granted you could still run it with the plan of hard casting it, but the arguments against doing such in the past have been that while we reasonably can cast BBB, often times we're stuck on a Waste or need to fetch out white sources, so BBB isn't always something we want to see. Not that you couldn't run it, mind you, but unless your meta is rampant with Show and Tell I would suggest against it.

Forlorn Egoist

If your metagame is rampant with Show and Tell/creature cheater type of decks, than Fleshbag Marauder or Diabolic Edict is probably what you want.

[bokwinkle]

Safety! good to see you cross boards...haha.

I do not like bitterblossom for multiple reasons, but this reason is an odd one that many may not think about - it gives you 4 more targets for K-Grip, and gives them more reasons to board it in. Right now your oppoenent may not even see equipment in game 1. Granted, most intelligent legacy players will understand that you play equipment, but if they don't see it in the first game they may question the effectiveness of brining in artifact/enchantment hate. It simply opens you up to loosing the sideboard war.

The other reasons include all the ones that have already been talked about: Vial, Slowness, Lifeloss...etc.. This card primarlilly falls victim to the same constraints as Serra and Grunt - it's a card that can't be utilized to change board position and gain tempo in the early part of the game - in a deck that is supposed to manage tempo. I'd never run Vial AND bitterblossom because you're adding 7 or 8 late game dead draws to the deck that already has issues finishing. If you're not running vial...you better be running Nighthawk and maindeck Sword of light and Shadow if you plan on playing this AND bob AND Thoughtseize - Just too suicide for my taste...my meta is way to aggro for this to work.

Stillmoon I feel is a fantastic creature that may have a place in the deck - but at the moment he would simply have to go in the Nighthawk spot if you don't play vial, and there is no room if you do play vial. Replacing a set of 2-drops with him simply raises the curve too much for Bob to stomach. Vindicates, Thoughtsiezes, and Nighthawks are enough Lightning bolts for me. Shocks aren't great, but I don't feel Stillmoon bridges the gap between the other card choices after you consider life loss. The only reason I currently run Nighthawks is because they can gain some of the life back and stabalize the game.

I'm not going to argue hawks anymore since none of the current winning lists run him - and I'm sick of arguing for it. You don't like it...don't play it. If a 1/1 flyer for 2 that draws 3 cards isn't good enough for you...well, ok play avenger on turn 4.

[ForlornEgoist]

If a 1/1 flyer for 2 that draws 3 cards isn't good enough for you...well, ok play avenger on turn 4.

Or you could just be cool like me and run Tombstalker. :3

Forlorn Egoist

[bokwinkle]

First of all - I love tombstalker in this deck. I've played with him and absolutely love him.

Secondly - I refuse to even bring him up because bob is in the deck and noone wants to talk about playing with cards that are bad with bob - despite the fact that bob rarely draws you cards...lol.

[ForlornEgoist]

Tombstalker is a perfectly legitimate creature to run, but I know arguing this will open up a can of worms. ^^'

As for the whole, "Bob," debate, I think it really boils down to preference. I prefer dragging things out to mid-late game with this deck, in which case Bob is a preferred option. However, in more aggro-oriented decks Sign in Blood is something I can see being used as it nets you cards upon resolution as opposed to Bob who draws you said cards 2 turns later. Also there is the conveinance of not being confined to a low mana curve so as to avoid being bolted each turn by Bob.

As for the Hawks, I'm actually intrigued by the idea of running them for aforementioned benefits, although I honestly have not playtested them nor even heard about running them until last night. I'll have to see how this plays out.

Forlorn Egoist

[bokwinkle]

the primary reason I've stopped aruging against Bob is because the parenthesis at the top of the the thread (B/w Confidant) - if bob isn't in the deck it is definately no longer Deadguy Ale. There may or may not be a real deck without bob, but ultimately it is not deadguy.

Tombstalker was an absolute house though in my playtesting and there was always cards to Delve - especailly if I ran real discard isntead of sculler. But ultimately I just hate the idea of sticking bob (essentially meaning that "i'm now winning") and then taking 8 from tombstalker and putting me within lethal or outright killing me and going from winning to loosing.

*winning when I say it is meant in the typical old definition - not the Charlie Sheen version of "winning"

[ForlornEgoist]

I've been running x4 Top/x2 Stalker and this has been working out for me thus far. Yeah, granted, taking 8 off a blind Bob sucks, but sometimes you just need to go balls-to-the-wall and risk it for the chance to drop a creature that will essentially kill them unless they can either counter it or remove it in 3 turns or less. I'm just the type of player who likes to play High Risks/High Rewards. Heck, I even spent countless hours remodling MBA/Deadguy so I could run Phyrexian Negator. LOL. But hey, my meta also has no Sligh/Zoo, and is primarily compossed of Tribal/Control (Merfolk/Land/Loam/Rock/Deadguy) so I can afford to be a little bit more risky than other people can with their list.

Forlorn Egoist

[markbris]

Safety! good to see you cross boards...haha.

I do not like bitterblossom for multiple reasons, but this reason is an odd one that many may not think about - it gives you 4 more targets for K-Grip, and gives them more reasons to board it in. Right now your oppoenent may not even see equipment in game 1. Granted, most intelligent legacy players will understand that you play equipment, but if they don't see it in the first game they may question the effectiveness of brining in artifact/enchantment hate. It simply opens you up to loosing the sideboard war.

The other reasons include all the ones that have already been talked about: Vial, Slowness, Lifeloss...etc.. This card primarlilly falls victim to the same constraints as Serra and Grunt - it's a card that can't be utilized to change board position and gain tempo in the early part of the game - in a deck that is supposed to manage tempo. I'd never run Vial AND bitterblossom because you're adding 7 or 8 late game dead draws to the deck that already has issues finishing. If you're not running vial...you better be running Nighthawk and maindeck Sword of light and Shadow if you plan on playing this AND bob AND Thoughtseize - Just too suicide for my taste...my meta is way to aggro for this to work.

Stillmoon I feel is a fantastic creature that may have a place in the deck - but at the moment he would simply have to go in the Nighthawk spot if you don't play vial, and there is no room if you do play vial. Replacing a set of 2-drops with him simply raises the curve too much for Bob to stomach. Vindicates, Thoughtsiezes, and Nighthawks are enough Lightning bolts for me. Shocks aren't great, but I don't feel Stillmoon bridges the gap between the other card choices after you consider life loss. The only reason I currently run Nighthawks is because they can gain some of the life back and stabalize the game.

I'm not going to argue hawks anymore since none of the current winning lists run him - and I'm sick of arguing for it. You don't like it...don't play it. If a 1/1 flyer for 2 that draws 3 cards isn't good enough for you...well, ok play avenger on turn 4.

How about this? What matchups do you feel squadron hawk improves? Hes terrible against goblins, zoo, combo etc. I guess hes better in the junk matchup but meh.

[CorpT]

How about this? What matchups do you feel squadron hawk improves? Hes terrible against goblins, zoo, combo etc. I guess hes better in the junk matchup but meh.

He was very good for me against Goblins. Not so much against Combo. Basically any deck that has a limited amount of removal and doesn't play fliers... That's his job. He's there to make it so that the removal that they draw is fairly ineffective. They cycle an Incinerator to kill a Hawk.. ok, I've still got 3 more. Swords a Hawk... ok, I've still got 3 more. He's there to carry equipment, so anything that equipment is good against, he's good against. That's a surprisingly large section of the meta.

[Spacemagic]

Tombstalker. that's an idea i could get behind...

[bokwinkle]

Truthfully I play far more standard and EDH than I do Legacy, and I don't like squadron hawk in standard either...so it was a pretty hard sell for me to run them in Legacy....but for the sake of trying everything, I decided to give the hawks a test rather than theory craft them out of playability. I was surprised how many *sighs* I drew from my opponents when I played them - they're really annoying. You do have to watch for Deed and Maelstrom Pulse - but no more than if you were playing one big dude with one piece of equipment.

Generally, they are the last card in my hand that I play - so I know their selection is questionable anyway, but also I typically go from 1 card to 3 cards and my opponent knows that they have to deal with my board position AND my hand because my hand is not just a bunch of land and non-threats. It forces your opponent to think about clock and speeding up their win con, can force bad plays, and generally makes them have to consider playing things like firespout before all of my creatures are on the table...or it makes them consider holding firespout while they just sit there and die. It puts you in a situation to outplay your opponent - which IMHO is a good thing. It's a much more complex play than just laying a threat and saying "go".

As for tombstalker - like I said, the guy was an absolute house when I tested him, especially since Bob dies either the turn he comes out or the following turn. But being in a winning board state and immediately loosing to your own cards just sux.

[Mr. Safety]

I think we are missing some ideas that can tie Bob + Tombstalker: Innocent Blood and Sensei's Divining Top

Innocent Blood can remove a blocker and you can sack Bob (once you have tombstalker available, you should be on the downhill part of the game...) It's a way prevent Bob from killing you AND dealing with an opposing threat. Cheap way to deal with Progenitus, too. It's a Gatekeeper without the 2/2 body, but with the benefit of only costing B.

Sensei's Divining Top can also give you some great synergy, but it's obvious that there aren't that many flex spots. You can work around the 8-life loss by doing this: Top at EOT, put Tombstalker 2nd in line, get your first card for little/no lifeloss, then draw Stalker. Bingo, no 8 life loss. The same argument works for Stillmoon Cavalier, just make sure the land/cheaper mana spell is what Bob grabs and your normal draw gets the higher costed card. Junk uses this synergy to great profit. SDT isn't bad mid-late game like Vial is either...good value throughout the game. Top can make your Wastelands do double duty as mana sources rather than just LD, too.

Thoughts? Does anyone use Tops in Deadguy?

[bokwinkle]

Personally, if I'm going to run Innocent blood and look for a finisher I'm going to run Abyssal Persecutor.

Tops are a possiblity, but not one I'm personally willing to run. The curve is so tight that I hate to be sinking mana into top every turn. I'd be more prone to splash green for sylvan library - but then I wouldn't need a finisher because i could just use 'Goyf. Generally, it can be done, I just feel like it makes the deck slower and takes some of the tempo away by trying to combo with a card that almost never survives more than a turn...lol. Probably the best way to run top is to run it in place of Vial (since you're already compromising the 2 CMC spot and making vial less active). Which goes from switching to a card that accellerates you to a card that slows you down...Top is just better is straight control than a tempo deck.

If we had more ways to protect Bob I'd probably give it more thought, but generally I feel like the only deck that currently supports that build is Dreadstill because of the availablity of countermagic. Just my $0.02...

[Mr. Safety]

So if (in your metagame) Bob only survives a turn...why risk a creature? Sign in Blood or Night's Whisper will both accomplish the same thing with the 'one turn' mentality. This allows you to support Tombstalker with a lot less risk, and also serves to get one more card in the yard to delve. *virtual shrug* just a note, take it or leave it...

[bokwinkle]

Oh...it's been discussed...lol.

Also Saftey - the deck you're talking about is "the Gate" Persecutor, Bob's, innocent Blood, Top's. It's good, it's more aggro and less tempo though.

[Mr. Safety]

Yeah, I'm familiar with the Gate. It doesn't usually use Stalkers though, and I thought the conversation was revolving around how to use Bob + Stalker in the same deck. The whole idea IMHO with Deadguy Ale is to have the best removal (Swords, Vindicate) along with Vial-ed in bears (Sculler, Bob) with a mana-denial/disruption package (Thoughtsieze, Wasteland) and an equipment 'finisher'. Am I missing anything? I don't see how Tombstalker is a bad option in this style of deck.

The Gate is all aggro, playing some disruption (Wasteland, Thoughtseize) but with a greater emphasis on better threats, enabled by Dark Ritual. To my knowledge, I don't think the Gate uses Tops...Junk emphasizes Bob/Tops quite a bit, but if I remember right, the Gate doesn't. Am I off base?

[bokwinkle]

heh, no you're on track as usual :tongue: with the exception that the gate is now starting to turn towards tops and dead-guy doesn't necessarilly run vial - Minor issues, both.

IMHO the biggest difference between the Gate and Deadguy is the inclusion of a second color and choices of finishers - other than that the decks can be extremely similar - They run Hymn and we run Tidehollow. They run Ritual and we run Vial (sometimes...lol). They run Persecutor and we run Stoneforge Mystic. We both run thoughtseize and wasteland...etc. The comparisons are there throughout.

I think when you start to step away from 2 or 3 CMC threats you grow away from deadguy and grow into a 2-color Gate as you start looking for ways to protect yourself from bob and climb away from vial. Again, just opinion.

[Leto]

I don't agree here, Vial in Deadguy is a newer way of playing the deck, not the typical one (no judgement from my side if its good or bad to play it). With the inclusion of Vial the way to build the deck changes and you include more utility-critter like Tidehollow instead of spells like hymn.


I for example play Bob+Top and no Vials with a slightly higher curve (ending on 4 with 2 Elspeth and 2 Abyssal) and it works pretty well for me. But my meta has really few Countertop-Players, so the need for Vials is much lower on my side. If Countertop would be a huge factor in my area, I would also tend to the Vial-List.

[Rainbow Maker]

i don't really play this deck that much in legacy anymore... here are my thoughts.
@hawk: it isn't pay 2 draw 3, it's pay two potentially search your library for overcosted 1/1s. when i played this deck i had found the deck to be too reliant of the equipments. if you're not splashing a third color look at all your creatures. they can create tempo for you, but it's very hard to capitalize on their loss of tempo because you don't have many fatties. if hawk was a 1/1 for 2 flying that said draw three cards or draw two cards, i would play him. He would be so nuts.

i like top in these lists. people see top as being clunky and expensive. It's virtual CA. It turns dead late game topdecked seizes into something else.

Bob stalker comes down to personal preference. I wouldn't be comfortable with running them together at least at the moment, if you do that's really good. Together they are amazing.

[Parax]

looks like we got safety on this thread now too! Yes!

[Mr. Safety]

I got hooked in when I saw Bokwinkle had put up some cool comments.

@Leto: seeing Aether Vial only as a way to play around Counterbalance is just flat out ridiculous. Vial is one of the best tempo engines in the history of magic, regardless of opposing countermagic/control. Deadguy sits on a creature curve of 2 mana (essentially bears, some hatebears, some utility bears like Mystic/Bob). So what can Vial do for this deck? Put threats/control into the game for free, allowing your mana to be open for disruption/control. How awesome does it feel to Vial in Tidehollow Sculler, rob their removal, and still have 2 mana open to play Bob (and most likely KEEP Bob!!!)????? Yep, absurd. It takes a dedicated turn 1-2 Vial to pull off...but you can use early game Wastelands to get Vial into play. Popping Wasteland turn 1 isn't always a good play (in fact, I think it's HARDLY EVER a good play) because you are only re-setting the game state back to turn 1. If you can get Vial turn 1, then pop off Wasteland turn 2, you are now advancing your game while stifling your opponents. Goblins do it, Merfolk do it, hell it's just GOOD PLAY.

Concering Sensei's Divining Top...I would only play Bob + Stalker with Tops. Sample list (pick it apart, please!)

4x Dark Confidant
4x Tidehollow Sculler
3x Serra Avenger
3x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Tombstalker
4x Vindicate
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Aether Vial
3x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Thoughtsieze
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
4x Scrubland
4x Marsh Flats
2-4x Alternate Fetchlands
4x Wasteland
1-3x Mutavault/Mishra's Factory
Swamp/Plains to get to 21 lands

The slots that I see as questionable right now are probably the Mutavaults (but with an emphasis on Vial for dudes and Top for filtering, you could allow more colorless lands). It's also questionable whether or not 4 targeted discards is enough...I think I'd feel more comfortable with 5-6, so Sculler is supported more. I also feel like Stillmoon Cavalier could work in this list, but dammit, there's just NO ROOM, lol. Serra Avenger is still superior, simply because you get a 3/3 flyer for 2 mana. I think it's a metagame call, but Stillmoon has so much promise with the built in protection. Putting on a Sword of Fire and Ice makes the guy impervious to spot removal, unblockable, and lets be honest, just a fucking house.

[makochman]

Sample list (pick it apart, please!)

IMO Tombstalker doesn't fit very well into the Vial'd version simply because you don't Vial it in.

I agree with your assessment of Aether Vial, it's acceleration, countermagic dodging and combat tricks. Speaking of which - perhaps it's time to make a new thread, entitled BW Tempo, for the version with Vial and Mystic package? The deck has changed a lot since 2005, and a new thread is always a catalyst for discussion, and a means to bring together experience from playtesting and tournament results.

[Spacemagic]

4x Aether Vial
4x Thoughtseize
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Hymn to Tourach
2x Vindicate

1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow

4x Mother of Runes
4x Dark Confidant
3x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Tidehollow Sculler
4x Serra Avenger

4x Scrubland
4x Marsh Flats
4x Wasteland
3x Swamp
3x Plains
1x Karakas
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Bojuka Bog

This is my current maindeck. it's doing well against my testing gauntlet. This deck is hard to shift cards around in because there's so many options. I would love to go up to a 4th Hymn and 3rd Vindicate, but Sculler is more important than Hymn in this build, and Vindicate was the clunkiest spell (albeit the most powerful). I considered dropping a Mother of Runes in the spot of one of them, but decided i needed the creature count high enough for the equipment to matter. The manabase has been boss for me, I wouldn't change a card in it.The specialty lands all produce on-color mana for the deck and have great utility. The Bojuka Bog, even though you have to draw it the old-fashioned way, is a game swinger vs. Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary because you can stall it out long enough to draw it, and catch a large graveyard , and if you are lucky enough, you can catch Dredge with it 2nd or 3rd turn, but that is definitely not a reliable crutch. Urborg is sweet against basic land heavy decks as it turns all your wastelands into swamps, and allows you to not have to pop fetchlands vs. Zoo or Gobbos (unless white is needed, of course) Karakas is Karakas, a better plains and random Emrakul and Iona hoser.

[bokwinkle]

Alright let me do this in some sort of order here....

First off, spacemagic's list:

I can't get on board with Hymns anymore. In playtesting them they were "iffy". Generally they were tough to support in the mana base and they enabled stupid stuff like Vengevine and Reanimation. I'd much rather have that 3rd vindicate and a couple more targeting discard spells in the disruption package. I prefer to use my discard like a counterspell to ensure that I can get spells through - and hymn just isn't reliable in doing that. I'd like hymn better if we had more discard for multiple cards, but as it stands it just "seems" subpar atm.

Next...Ok, so since saftey started it, I feel the need to push it a bit further - I don't like Mom. And it's not related to childhood issues. She's the only "mom" I know that isn't agressive enough. I know we're on the "protect bob" boat here, but I just can't justify such a passive card in a deck that is lacking threats and finishers. I really feel this is the spot that will enable us to be agressive. If you replace Mom with something agressive you do offer bob some protection in that they will need their removal for your threats, as opposed to just letting mom hang out all day - it's not going to let you draw you more cards, but it may get you there in the "W" column.

Lastly - Vial. Oh how I love to hate thee...

It's slow, it restricts deck construction, it's a bad late game topdeck, and you dont' need it to win. The two recent winning lists vary essentially only in that one runs vial with 20 lands and one doesn't run vial with 22 lands and 2 more discard spells. It comes down to taste. Personally I feel as though vial helps you in the mid-game (turns 3-5) when this deck needs the least amount of help since I can run Perish and other mass removal in the board in addition to swords and vindicate. Also, not running vial means that I can play pithing needle naming vial...lol. More than anything it comes down to taste - some people absolutely love vial, others are...more like me.

[TossUsToLions]

I agree with your assessment of Aether Vial, it's acceleration, countermagic dodging and combat tricks. Speaking of which - perhaps it's time to make a new thread, entitled BW Tempo, for the version with Vial and Mystic package? The deck has changed a lot since 2005, and a new thread is always a catalyst for discussion, and a means to bring together experience from playtesting and tournament results.

I agree. B/W Tempo is a completely different deck, and a lot of ideas immediately get turned down in this thread because they aren't "Deadguy"ish.

[Parax]

[QUOTE=Mr. Safety;529655]......

4x Dark Confidant
4x Tidehollow Sculler
3x Serra Avenger
3x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Tombstalker
4x Vindicate
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Aether Vial
3x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Thoughtsieze
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
4x Scrubland
4x Marsh Flats
2-4x Alternate Fetchlands
4x Wasteland
1-3x Mutavault/Mishra's Factory
Swamp/Plains to get to 21 lands

QUOTE]

I could confortably run 2 Vindicate and be happy about it,it might be the weakest card in the deck in my opinion. Most versatile yes. Its a late game spell, that more or less will be used to get rid of something big in your way or as a late game stone rain. Ya its good, but some people even cut it all together, which i would not do actually. So maybe for IoK 2 more discard for you. Its interesting that you would cut Vampire Nighthawk. I know this is a time to innovate, but i really like him in general. It more or less negates the drawback of Bob once he is on the board.

I really liked the Moms too and i think that without them and with the Tombstalkers your deck becomes a little more aggressive (which could be good, we'll have to talk through this)

[Mr. Safety]

Alright let me do this in some sort of order here....

First off, spacemagic's list:

I can't get on board with Hymns anymore. In playtesting them they were "iffy". Generally they were tough to support in the mana base and they enabled stupid stuff like Vengevine and Reanimation. I'd much rather have that 3rd vindicate and a couple more targeting discard spells in the disruption package. I prefer to use my discard like a counterspell to ensure that I can get spells through - and hymn just isn't reliable in doing that. I'd like hymn better if we had more discard for multiple cards, but as it stands it just "seems" subpar atm.

Next...Ok, so since saftey started it, I feel the need to push it a bit further - I don't like Mom. And it's not related to childhood issues. She's the only "mom" I know that isn't agressive enough. I know we're on the "protect bob" boat here, but I just can't justify such a passive card in a deck that is lacking threats and finishers. I really feel this is the spot that will enable us to be agressive. If you replace Mom with something agressive you do offer bob some protection in that they will need their removal for your threats, as opposed to just letting mom hang out all day - it's not going to let you draw you more cards, but it may get you there in the "W" column.

Lastly - Vial. Oh how I love to hate thee...

It's slow, it restricts deck construction, it's a bad late game topdeck, and you dont' need it to win. The two recent winning lists vary essentially only in that one runs vial with 20 lands and one doesn't run vial with 22 lands and 2 more discard spells. It comes down to taste. Personally I feel as though vial helps you in the mid-game (turns 3-5) when this deck needs the least amount of help since I can run Perish and other mass removal in the board in addition to swords and vindicate. Also, not running vial means that I can play pithing needle naming vial...lol. More than anything it comes down to taste - some people absolutely love vial, others are...more like me.

tes-ti-FY, brutha! As for the Hymn argument, I use the same reasoning for not running an awesome 2-mana 3/1 flyer in my faeries deck (Oona's Prowler) because the potential for helping dredge/Vengevine builds is too risky. I want to, it looks so good on paper...but it just doesn't pan out. ho hum...Targeted discard is what you want.

The mom discussion...we can't get too far in the control camp without giving up a way to actually win the game, lol. It's tempo...slow 'em down, then kick their teeth in so they can't get up. If all you do is slow them down...they'll eventually just play the slow game and slow-roll your ass into the losers camp. That's kind of what drove my comment about 4 targeted discards not being enough...playing 5-6 seems better. Why the hell are we worried about life loss with Bob? The life isn't the point...it's the CARDS. Again, this goes back to not going too far into the control camp. I'd rather play Hypnotic Specter than Mom (or better yet, something aggressive like Elite Vanguard or Vampire Lacerator that can beat early, then get equipped to beat MORE face mid-late game). And out of left field...Figure of Destiny!!!

I hear you on the Vial comments...the sample list I put up had all bears, save Stalkers. Parax already mentioned the obvious lack of Nighthawk, which, quite frankly, is one of the best black threats in the format.

You have 2 options:

-A slavish Vial + Bears strategy
-A curved out threat base (going on both sides of the bears with early aggression and then 3 mana threats like Nighthawk)

The sample list is reliant on Vial to push tempo...but you can do the same thing with targeted discard and early threats along with some card advantage. Here is yet ANOTHER sample list, using some unconventional card choices (Vanguard, Stillmoon). I see no reason to use Serra Avenger without vial...if you can't cheat it, it's just not as good as an earlier beater that gets equipment. In some cases, a threat played on turn 1 can mean the difference between winning and losing.

4x Elite Vanguard
3x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tidehollow Sculler
3x Vampire Nighthawk
3x Stillmoon Cavalier
3x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Thoughtseize
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Vindicate
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
3x Wasteland
4x Scrubland
4x Marsh Flats
2x Verdant Catacombs
8x Swamps/Plains

[CorpT]

Just an FYI: Sam Black is now claiming that Squadron Hawk is Legacy playable.

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/21399.html

[bokwinkle]

Just an FYI: Sam Black is now claiming that Squadron Hawk is Legacy playable.

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/21399.html

I don't care who makes the claim - it seems obvious to me that when a common foil card that is still in print sees $20 (yes really - not a playset, just one copy) on ebay that it's being played by more people than just standard folks.

It's a card that forces your opponent to run mass removal and it also plays around mass removal...it's just good....just watch out for cabal therapy and Maelstrom Pulse.

...ok, I think I already said I was going to stop arguing for this card...oops....moving on.

As for Nighthawk - I really wanted to hate this card originally, I thought it was pretty underpowered in standard when it saw play there. But after playing it repeatedly, it just shuts down soooo many tactics. This card alone is almost to consider equipment like fireshrieker and Sword of Vengeance (almost...lol) - he even makes bad cards seem good. He will never come out of this build for me, unless they make the same exact card as a 2/1 for 2cmc with all the same abilities...lol.

I'm still debating replacing 2 of my 3 moms with Tombstalker - there's something really appealing about all of my threats having flying.

[Parax]

I think that the deck either wants Stillmoon or Nighthawk, not both. This brings the curve a little too high. I'm a big fan of Stillmoon with SoFI on it. What are you going to do play Desert Twister?

Why the Elite Vanguards and not Savannah Lions? Funny story Lykos asked me today why i'm not playing Lions in my list, said they are good beats. My response more or less was i didn't want dumb beats. I'd rather have a 1/1 that can counter removal, than a 2/1 that just attacks.

In the late game, equip Mom and she swings basically just as well as the Vanguard. Both die just as easily.

[Nizmox]

4x Aether Vial
4x Thoughtseize
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Hymn to Tourach
2x Vindicate

1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow

4x Mother of Runes
4x Dark Confidant
3x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Tidehollow Sculler
4x Serra Avenger

4x Scrubland
4x Marsh Flats
4x Wasteland
3x Swamp
3x Plains
1x Karakas
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Bojuka Bog


This is very similar to my current list...

4x Aether Vial
4x Thoughtseize
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Hymn to Tourach
2x Vindicate

1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow

4x Mother of Runes
4x Dark Confidant
3x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Tidehollow Sculler
4x Serra Avenger

4x Scrubland
4x Marsh Flats
4x Wasteland
3x Swamp
3x Plains
2x Verdant Catacombs

I really think that 20 lands is enough, in fact usually I end up flooded. With Bob and Vial the deck doesn't seem to have a problem. Also its very easy to play around wasteland with the number of basics and only being two colours.

I know Hymn has been getting a bad rap, but I honestly think that Aether Vial makes Hymn a very strong turn 2 play. Some of the plays you can land are an absolute beating. For example...
T1. Vial
T2. 1 counter on Vial, Hymn
End of Opponents turn Vial in Mother of Runes (Hopefully they've tapped out and have no removal)
T3. 2 counters on Vial, Cast Bob
Opponents Draw Step, Vial in Sculler

Discarding 3 cards from your opponent and both Bob and Sculler are protected by Mother of Runes.

I'm still deciding how to best build my sideboard, but I feel that maximising the number of creatures that cost 2cc is the way to go. These can be vialed in and protected by Mom. The cards I'm testing are...
Ethersworn Canonist (Combo)
Yixlid Jailer (Graveyard Hate)
Jotun Grunt (Graveyard Hate / Goyf)
Phyrexian Revoker (Deed, Explosives)
Perish (Anti Green)

[Leto]

short question, who the fuck pays 20$ for Squadron Hawks O.o costs 2 Cent here, even an really expensive Online Store lists it for 14 Cent

[makochman]

short question, who the fuck pays 20$ for Squadron Hawks O.o costs 2 Cent here, even an really expensive Online Store lists it for 14 Cent

A playset of foil Hawks is supposed to be worth $20 at the very least.

I don't think the Hawk is strong enough to see Legacy play. IMHO it's inferior to Bitterblossom, because paying 1 life to get a 1/1 is better than paying mana or a Vial activation. And Bitterblossom was strong enough to dominate Standard and see heavy Extended play, but made relatively little impact on Legacy.

[Leto]

ah, shiny cards, kay^^ wouldn't pay money for that, but thats something everyone needs to decide for himself


something I am concerned about, is that the deck becomes way to dependent from Vial and that if the opponent shuts the Vial down, the deck sinks like a stone.

[TsumiBand]

Besides being compatible with Aether Vial I don't see why Squadron Hawk is measurably better than like Spectral Procession. You want them to blow a Firespout? Let them do it now instead of waiting turn after turn of you dropping bad Hawks; why didn't you just Thoughtseize it anyway? And if they don't have it, you have 3 more power of fliers in the air, for WWW. There's a lot of talk in the thread about "3-mana threats" or whatever, and I keep seeing stuff about Nighthawk and Stillmoon... I dunno, kill two birds with one stone. Procession is a 3-mana spell that seems like it does all those things. Procession + MoR = 2 attackers and one awesome chump blocker. Procession + equipment = SoFI / SoFF with evasion, and you win the future.

If you're slow-rolling it, drawing only 1 more Hawk after you play the first, etc... then you're doing just that, playing 1/1s for 2 that don't do anything to your opponent's resources the same way a MoR or Tidehollow or even a lifelinker does, I don't see any tempo control there.

And if you search for every Hawk in the deck immediately you're setting yourself up for discard to wreck you, aforementioned things like Cabal Therapy or Maelstrom Pulse FTL. I guess I can see how packing a bunch of 'fetch' effects into your deck can lead to you slowly beginning to draw more business spells - Hawks, SFM, fetchlands etc - but that's still the slowest of slow things you can do in a format which is sort of a ton faster than your 1/1s. Even if they get equipped they're still eating up your mana and I would venture to guess you'll find yourself with a ton of Hawks in hand and choosing the business spells (Hymn/Vindicate/O-Ring/etc) over the grip of shitty Hawks.

Wow I just ranted a lot about Squadron Hawk. O_o

[JadeOberg]

A lot of good discussion going on in this thread, thought I would just throw in my 2 cents.

I've played a non-vial version of Deadguy on and off for the last 8 months. Regarding Mother of Runes, this deck just needs her. As mentioned above, she counters removal, clears the way for equipped creatures to get sword triggers, and holds equipment herself. So many decks are unprepared to beat her. I know we talked about first turn Mom and second turn BoB...pretty sick... What about active Mom with a nighthawk. The opponent cannot attack into that.

Nighthawk... Another card that puts the opponent into so many awkward situations combat situations, usually resulting in them skipping their combat phase. And holding a sword means you are going to win.

I think Vial and Non vial is pretty up in the air. I've never felt like I've wanted vial...But I can understand how Vial is so good in the mid game where you are deploying threats AND playing spells. 20 lands seems good with vial...and as mentioned above, I run 22 lands with no vial. I do like wasteland and vial...disrupting their gameplan while advancing your own.

About Hymn, I could get on board with cutting hymn for more targeted discard. I was playing against a rock deck with my Sneak Show deck last month....He hymned my 6 card hand...left me with a sneak attack. and I killed him next turn. So, yeah, targeted discard may just be superior...plus this deck would love more 1 drops. Especially my NON vial deck.

What would you guys prefer...Duress or Inquisition?

Squadron Hawk...This deck is filled with card advantage...SH is card advantage. I just dont know what to cut for the hawks. Flying is relevant for carrying swords but I just cant see them in my deck. Could be good though, warrants testing, Maybe in a more controlled build?

Played in a tourney today, played my standard list seen a few pages back, minus SOFI and plus SOBM

0-2 Sneak and Show
2-0 Reanimator
0-2 Zenith Order Bant
2-1 Jace Deed Still
2-1 4 color Counterbalance

Vial def was not needed against the blue decks today. Progenitus Got there for Bant.

One thing about this deck is that we are trying to play "fair Magic" against a field that does a bunch of broken unfair things. We are counting on early disruption to get there with wasteland/discard and buy us some time to get a dude equipped. My first three matchups were against decks cheating huge monsters into play. And this seems to be a trend. Maybe targeted discard would help?

One last note.....What are you guys using for equipment now...I tested Body and mind today and it was awful....but what do you all think?

[TsumiBand]

Another thing to consider with the S-hawk thing is that this deck isn't using the Brainstorm/Jace trick with it - instead of using a grip of Squadron Hawks to turn Brainstorm into a weird Ancestral Recall, we just.. play them. And if we are indeed playing 'fair Magic' while everyone else is busy going broken, I don't at all think that Squadron Hawk closes the fairness gap.

What part of the greatness of the Hawk am I not getting here, because it seems like since this deck doesn't play Jace, to include the Squadron Hawk means we're just playing the lousy half of the 'combo'.

[Leto]

I must admit that I like the whole cheat-fraction atm alot. Natural Prey for Deadguy with its maindeck sacc-effects.

To the Equips, I play the usual 3 including, Jitte, SoFaI and SoLaS. I thought about Bonehoard for a while, it is potentially huge against tribal and Zoo and can be vialed in with SFM for the usual 2. The lack of Special abilities is what holds me back atm.

[JadeOberg]

Yeah, main deck sac effects are great against sneak/show and reanimator. However when the bant player already has out a Noble and a Goyf and decides to NO...I just cry. Usually means I didn't have the discard or he top decked it.

I wanted to add one more comment about MOM. When she hits the battle field against anything non-combo, the opponent either sighs because they can't deal with her right meow, or they immediately send her to the field or bolt her. I think that is a great argument for her inclusion in the deck. Kinda like BOB is a must answer and SFM is a must counter. Hell, I've even had Tidehollow Forced.

[Leto]

jupp, was on a tourney today, and Tidehollow Sculler was forced, firespouted (with him being alone on my side^^). Definately a good critter


played this



4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
7 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Dark Confidant
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Vindicate
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Sideboard
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Extirpate
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Ethersworn Canonist



and went 3-3. But I'm thankful cos I totally failed at predicting the meta -.-

forgot pencil&paper, so report is short and without names

vs. UGB Control or Thresh
1: Disrupted him, Nighthawk + Jitte ftw
2: On 3 Life (I have only Nighthawk on the field and no hand) he topdecked Jace and bounced my nighthawk for 3 Round, smashing me with a Creeping Tar Pit
3: Same as 2, Both on lowlife, he gripped my SoLaS when I want to equip Gatekeeper (If that had happened I had won^^*) and kills again with Creeping Tar Pit (that thing is so damn good)
0-1

vs. Goblins played by Stef (buddy of mine who was our driver)
1&2: Killed me on Turn 4 or 5 in both games -.-
0-2

vs. Mono Black Discard Oo
1: He disrupted me heavily on T1 with TS+Hymn but than went out of Gas, 1 of my Critters beats him down then
2: T1 IoK T2 Sculler T3 Hymn + Top was to much for him
1-2

vs. Merfolk
1: I beat the shit out of him with Sculler, Gatekeeper and Jotun
2&3: with Merrow Reejerey he puts 4 or 5 Fish in one turn into play, that was simply to much for me
1-3

vs. Mono Black Discard (again -.-)
1: Mulligan of Doom (on 4) for my opponent, I play two IoK on him, rest nothing interesting
2: Equipped Percy stomped him after 20 minutes of topdecking on both sides (he had Sensei's, me not). Only cool thing was me stabilizing on 3 Life with active Bob through SoLaS^^
2-3

vs. UGR Thresh
Won both, but they were very long and so back and forth I cannot say what happened exactly, but in both games Jotun performed pretty well, second won equipped Percy for me.
3-3


Standing I don't know (wasn't interested in waiting for it, cause they post it in 2-3 days on their Website), guessing something in 25 of maybe 40-50 Players




Best performed: Sculler and Jotun, those two were amazing. Sculler catched important stuff all the time and then saved Bob or Nighthawk from removal. Jotun did some serios beats and hosed Threshplayers and Goyfs several times.

Worst: The meta. I and a friend of mine expected much combo and Sneakshow, I got 2 Tribal, 2 Discard (wtf?) and 2 UGx. I will get my Engineered Plagues again -.-


Nice to know, a Deadguy-Player took the first place, I will post the List when I get it.

[InResponseForceOfWill]

Has anyone here considered or tried running Knight of Meadowgrain?

Does anyone sideboard Vampire Hexmages?

[bokwinkle]

Ok, so I played my list on saturday at a 100+ man tourney....

Round 1: Recurring LED/Spellbombs - Painter/Grindstone

Game one I'm on the go and I play turn 1 thoughtseize and see Brainstorm, fact or fiction, Ponder, Enlightened Tutor, Ancient Tomb, Volcanic Island, and Scalding Tarn. At this point I have NO IDEA what he's playing. I've mentioned before that I'm relatively new to the format, so I was cluless here. I pulled the enlightened tutor and say go. I didn't see any more discard or Vindicates and I end up loosing to Painter/Grindstone.

Game 2 I quickly realize I have -0- cards in my board that can deal with a combo deck - which really pisses me off. I also still have no idea that this is a graveyard recursion deck (since I didn't see many cards) so I don't board in any of my 4 Relic's. He wins game 2 by recurring LED's and Spellbombs. An early tidehollow proves worthless against the blue spellbomb.

At this point I've seen all 3 of my stoneforge Mystics in both games...Of course against a deck that doesn't care about slow equipment.

Round 2: Merfolk

Game 1 he see's almost no counter magic and I have answers for all of his lords. Moving on...

Game 2 I board in my engineered plagues, play around daze, resolve a stoneforge mystic for SoFI and absolutely decimate him.

Round 3: Storm Combo

Game 1 I land a turn 1 Mom and Turn 2 Sculler and get in some quick beats, but it isn't enough - despite him having to mull to 5 (although I did mull to 6)

Game 2 Again, I curse myself for not running ANY combo hate...was really wishing for a cannonist at this point. I mull to 5 on the play, manage to discard his only tutor in his opening hand with sculler and proceed to slowly beat him down with sculler/nighthawk.

Game 3 He mulls to a good 5 on the play and decimates me. I had a chance at one point on turn 4 when I know he has 2 Lotus Petal and 1 burning wish in a 5 card hand with double underground on the board. I had the choice between playing vindicate on his land OR playing Nighthawk to try and force damage. I was going through the possible scenarios in my head and decided to take a chance that he wouldn't have ad-naus in hand or draw it (since the deck usually runs 1 or 2 of them) and that I had at least a turn since he'd have to wish for it - so I played hawk in an attempt to try and force some damage. One of the cards in his hand that I didn't know was LED and he drew Ad-Naus. GG

Discard doesn't work against storm combo without land destruction to back it up, it just doesn't.

Round 4 Some sort of Naya deck (runs waste/crucible, KotR, 'goyf, bolt etc...this is what you get in the 1-2 bracket, lol)

This is the round that I realize I haven't seen any wastelands all day...and upon fetching I realize that I didn't include them in my list. They probably would have been really good against combo...lol. Oh well.

Game 1 He keeps a 1 land hand, doesn't draw a second before I vindicate the first. By the time he see's a second land I have a second vindicate...not really a game.

Game 2 he gets mana flooded and I have answers to his very few threats.

Round 5 G/W Loam

Early thoughtsiezes take Knight of the Reliquary in both of these games and I have answers to his remaining threats and get there with Squadron hawks equiped with Swords...wee. In both games the deck performed EXACTLY as it was supposed to. It helps that I landed bob in both games after my discard spells revealed no removal in hand.

Round 6 show and tell/sneak attack

Game 1 I have no idea what he's playing and I keep a pretty subpar hand of Edict, Sculler, 3 land, Squad Hawk, Nighthawk - no turn 1 plays and generally pretty slow with the only piece of subpar removal in my deck, but I'm on the draw and figure that I have 10 1-drops in the deck and I can probably get there...I draw land and play swamp-go. His turn 2 he plays ancient tomb and show-and-tell into progenitus. I completely ignore my hand for a minute and I'm pretty pissed off that I'm playing combo for a 3rd time that day already with no combo sideboard. Then I look at my hand and see my one edict and a sculler in hand and laugh pretty hard. I show sculler looking for countermagic, find none, and take sneak attack out of his hand. I proceed to cast the only edict in my deck and walk to a quick and easy win.

Game 2 My board is completely useless...I actually debated running perish to get rid of progenitus...lol. However, the magic gods smiled upon me and I end up casting Thoughtsieze into t2 Sculler into a t3 Sculler and Duress. The game is slow and he eventually puts woodfall primus into play with the second sneak attack he draws but he couldn't recover from the early discard. This game was an absolute pounding.

Round 7 Storm Combo (Bryant Cook)

Well...I knew how this was going to go. Fortunately I don't mind loosing to Bryant since I've played a lot of standard with him and we get along pretty well. We spent most of the time just talking smack to each other and generally having fun. Discard without wastland just wasn't enough against a guy that topdecks all of his wins...lol. These games went pretty fast and both times I kept pretty subpar hands because I didn't feel like dragging out the misery. At this point I REALLY wish I had cannonist. If I would have had any real outs against I would have mulled more aggressively.

-------------

Overall I felt pretty good about the deck, despite finishing out of the prizes at 4-3. I would immagine that a person more familar with the format that actually included their wastelands and had a proper sideboard built could have easilly got into prizes. The deck was VERY consistent though, I rarely had to mull, and the curve allows for some pretty aggressive play.

I found that when I landed Bob he just sat on the table all day. Everyone really wanted to answer him, but noone could because of the discard and mom. He ate removal maybe twice all day. This is important to me because I thought for sure he was going to get answered a lot, and it means that my disruption to threat ratio is pretty good in order to run bob.

I found Squadron hawks to be "ok". They weren't stellar, but I didn't see firespout all day either - come to think about it, I didn't even see it get played in any games I watched. I think the dominance of combo has generally forced people to play something other than mass removal. I will say that they were never bad. I was never wishing that they were something else - because we are generally a midrange deck, by the time we're playing threats we've probably already stabalized and are winning anyway, so which threat we lay is generally un-important. The flying was nice to carry a sword...but even that was less than crucial to winning. I'm actually debating replacing these with something like Revoker or maindeck cannonist. This opinion may change if I start to see more creature hate.

Mom was "ok" as well. Her protection seemed "meh" in most games and more often she just filled a 1-spot as a beater. In testing I have had games where protecting a nighthawk made a difference...but I didn't see that all day in the tourney - especially since I run 2 swords with 4 different protections. If I replace her it will have to be with a one drop...I'm not sure what I'd run yet, but I doubt it will be something like savannah lions...although that does have it's appeal.

I was never really wanting Vial. I guess against storm combo it may have got me a couple extra damage in, but I don't think it would have got me there. The other thing is that I really didn't see much countermagic all day...so this is probably a pretty limited experience to draw from....or maybe it's meta driven, I don't know.

[Leto]

lol, maybe we should swap opponents, you got all the combo I was expecting^^

to Squadron Hawks, after yesterday my opinion on them is slightly better than before. There were to much games where me and my opponent just topdecked all day long in order to find something to beat with, against thresh I had 10 cards left in the lib. Oo Getting a hawk out and the other 3 in hand would be good at that point. But I have to much cards that are just better than them, so they won't get any spots just now.

[Mr. Safety]

Dude...what were you thinkin' not bringing combo hate?!?!?

Realistically, that's why I feel more comfortable with 5-6 targeted discards. They theoretically give you a better g1 vs combo. Leyline of Sanctity, Ethersworn Canonist, and Mindbreak Trap are fairly decent sideboard weapons against combo.

Savannah Lions/Elite Vanguard both have A LOT of appeal for me, and here's why: they are the best aggressive 1-drop you can get in w/b. Vampire Lacerator and Carnophage aren't worth considering because the 2 toughness instead of 1 is negligable. I've said it before: I'd rather have turn 1 targeted discard which sets up a more reliable turn 2 Sculler. Before you go for 4 1-drop dudes, I'd get up to 8 targeted discards in there first, but hey, that's just me. It's about the only option you have outside of Aether Vial for playing a 'fair' deck.

Bitterblossom seems like it could work...but I'd want Gerard's Verdict to go with it.

[Nizmox]

Has anyone here considered or tried running Knight of Meadowgrain?


No, but it does seem like a very good card to test. More so for the builds running vial since you tend to keep your counters at 2.
I might give that a try in my flex slot (currently Hymn).

[bokwinkle]

well, I was expecting counter-top and 43 land...and saw neither. I think I just need to resign myself to loose the counter-top matchup and move on with my life - because almost noone is playing it since vial is so prevelant. My main and side will defenately be different the next time i play...I'm just not sure how drastic I want to go with either of them. I'm not sure if counter-top will make a come back with all of the rock decks or not...we'll see.

Edit: Knight of Meadowgrain - awesome creature, tough to play in this deck. The double white is prohibitive if you want turn 1 discard spells. However, if you play vial he becomes a real option....I do not, so my testing of the card was poor...he ended up often being a turn 4 or 5 drop when I got double white...and if I'm going to do that then I'm going to play Serra Avenger to gain the evastion and extra power.

Edit 2:


...Savannah Lions/Elite Vanguard both have A LOT of appeal for me, and here's why: they are the best aggressive 1-drop you can get in w/b. Vampire Lacerator and Carnophage aren't worth considering because the 2 toughness instead of 1 is negligable. I've said it before: I'd rather have turn 1 targeted discard which sets up a more reliable turn 2 Sculler. Before you go for 4 1-drop dudes, I'd get up to 8 targeted discards in there first, but hey, that's just me. It's about the only option you have outside of Aether Vial for playing a 'fair' deck...

Personally, I'd rather have all of my 1 drops be black. It makes the deck much more consistent. Between 5 fetches, 4 scrublands, and Urborg Tomb the ability to esentially play a scrubland on turn 1 is pretty high, but against a deck that runs wastelands I'd like to be able to fetch a basic on turn 1 if I can - and I'd like it to be black. So I've been looking for a creature that I can play on turn 1 for black mana... There's a couple options but the versatility of the creatures is pretty minimal. I don't love Mom...but I can't find a good replacement for her. Honestly, the extra 1 power isn't enough to justify changing to anything else. My frustration is that many times she's just Memnite.

[ForlornEgoist]

So I've been looking for a creature that I can play on turn 1 for black mana...

Carnophage/Sarcomancy! Plus, if you ran them you could also run Phyrexian Totem! Ah, the MB-Suicide player in me yearns for the days of Dark Rits and Phyrexian Negator and Flesh Reaver. =(

Forlorn Egoist

[bokwinkle]

oddly enough...I actually gave sarcomancy some thought since we already have sculler and Stillmoon still isn't ruled out. You don't realize how much I'm actually avoiding tribal zombies right now. The casual player in me is trying to claw it's way out...lol

[Greenpoe]

Savannah Lions/Elite Vanguard both have A LOT of appeal for me, and here's why: they are the best aggressive 1-drop you can get in w/b. Vampire Lacerator and Carnophage aren't worth considering because the 2 toughness instead of 1 is negligable. I've said it before: I'd rather have turn 1 targeted discard which sets up a more reliable turn 2 Sculler. Before you go for 4 1-drop dudes, I'd get up to 8 targeted discards in there first, but hey, that's just me. It's about the only option you have outside of Aether Vial for playing a 'fair' deck.

If you're taking that route, run at least 1-2 Isamaru, Hound of Konda or even Akrasan Squire. Still, I think the important thing here is the difference between Deadguy and Evagreen. Evagreen wants to explode with Dark Ritual, while Deadguy seeks is much stronger later in the game once you get your equipment out.

[Derayler]

Im guessing we all forgot about Vampire Lacerator for 1 drop black guys.

[Mr. Safety]

Savannah Lions/Elite Vanguard both have A LOT of appeal for me, and here's why: they are the best aggressive 1-drop you can get in w/b. Vampire Lacerator and Carnophage aren't worth considering because the 2 toughness instead of 1 is negligable. I've said it before: I'd rather have turn 1 targeted discard which sets up a more reliable turn 2 Sculler. Before you go for 4 1-drop dudes, I'd get up to 8 targeted discards in there first, but hey, that's just me.

I am quoting myself about 4 posts up. I think getting 8 targeted discards into the deck is better than a 1-drop creature. Bokwinkle brought to light that your first land, if it isn't Wasteland, should be producing black mana. That means Scrubland or Swamp...making a black 1-drop the ideal place to look. I just don't like the idea of MORE self-directed lifeloss. Bob hits you with lifeloss as well as fetchlands...this makes your aggro matchup worse, and I don't really like that. If I'm going to take consistent damage it had better be for card advantage, which is why Bob and Bitterblossom are good.

I say forget the 1-drop dude and play 4x Thoughtseize and 3-4x Inquisition of Kozilek/Duress.

EDIT: Flayer Husk???

[bokwinkle]

I can't get on board with that much discard. It's just too dead in the lategame when people are topdecking threats and we're topdecking discard - especially in a vial list where you already have 4 late-game dead-draws. Bitterblossom is another card that I think belongs on this list - good in your opening hand, bad on the topdeck. The primary reason I haven't cut mom is that she can have a significant impact on board position immediately - which is something that a lot of 1 cmc dudes simply cannot claim.

I think we need 3-4 1 drop dudes in the deck to help curve, but they have to be worth drawing in the late game - which a dumb beater simply is not.

[Mr. Safety]

Flayer Husk??? If that isn't an option, then I think you're limited to Vampire Lacerator or Sarcomancy. Both have conditional lifeloss clauses. I'd say play 6 targeted discards (most likely 4 Thoughtseize/2 Inquisition) and then work in 3-4 Vampire Lacerators.

[bokwinkle]

These are the guys I was considering:

Guul Draz Vampire
Heap Doll
Quag Vampires
Signal Pest
Zulaport Enforcer

The problem is that none of these cards are even remotely in the same league as Mom...she's just far superior - mother superior, fantastic.

[Leto]

well, personal the only one I can imagine from your list is Guul Draz Vampire, Signal Pest is alone useless, Level Up and Multikicker are most times way to expensive. Heap doll could be useful against dredge or loam but that was it.

[Greenpoe]

Fume Spitter is decent. Against Dredge, you can target himself with his ability to remove Bridges. He'll kill a Cursecatcher in case you don't want your Thoughtseize countered. He'll kill those annyoing Hierarchs, Lackeys, and most importantly, enemy Confidants as well.

[tarus]

I was looking for a 1c man until I get get some moms. How would Nip Gwyllion or Rimebound Dead stack up? I think I might even try out Benevolent Bodyguard.

[bokwinkle]

of those 3 nip has the most potential in the late game witg equip....but I'd be prone to run more targeting discard with vials instead of trying to find a replacement for Mom in the no-vial list. If you're just toying with the deck until you have all of the cards I'd just use some number of these cards:

Mom
Bob
Vial
Equipment
Thoughtseize
Vindicate
Duress
Inquisition of Kozilek
Vampire Nighthawk
Stoneforge Mystic
Serra Avenger
Swords to Plowshares
Diabolic Edict
Squadron Hawk
Jotun Grunt
Tidehollow Sculler

Basically, as long as you have a minimum of 13 1cmc cards to smooth your curve and gaurentee you a turn 1 play from among the cards listed above, with a bunch of 2-drops that include Bob, and Vindicate you'll basically be playing dead-guy. once you run a few locals with it and try it out you may not even want mom to be honest...

[CorpT]

What are you people cutting to put in these terrible cards? This is Legacy where you don't have to run bad cards.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I propose THIS (: http://www.mtgvault.com/ViewDeck.aspx?DeckID=162739) list. It's something I have been working on for a little while now. Tell me what you think. Run a few sample hands, get a feel for it. I have this list in what feels to me like a very streamlined list that demonstrates how versatile the list can bee (heheh).

I know I'm a first-time poster on the thread, but I've been a long-time reader.


Hope you like it,

--ABC

EDIT: If the link doesn't work, here is the link:

http://www.mtgvault.com/ViewDeck.aspx?DeckID=162739

[Leto]

several things came to my mind when I saw the list

-Why only 3 Scrublands, not 4?
-How good is Phyrexian Crusader in your deck? I don't like Poison in a nonpoison Deck.
-For what the 3 Rituals? If you want it on the Starthand I would play 4 to get it as safe as possible
-Only 4 Discard seems a bit low.
-Why Vials in the Side?
-Why the Equipments in the Side?


You have no chance against Combo, and no good outs against tribal ( I learned it on the last Tourney, don't go out without some Tribalhate like Engineered Plague, EE, Firespout...), two Decks that you will encounter on most Tourneys


(hope that doesn't sound to harsh, that were only questions I would like to answer you, so that I understand your deck better)

[sdematt]

Hey all, you may know me from such threads as the Rock thread. Point being, I've also been playing some Deadguy, and I've built my own build. It's basically B/W The Gate.

Went to a tournament tonight, and obviously took it down playing a new list. It's pretty Deadguy.
The list:

4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
2 Polluted Delta
1 Plains
4 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Scrubland


2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Umezawa's jitte
1 SoFI
3 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Dark Confidant
4 Phyrexian Revoker


4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Top
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
1 IoK
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Dark Ritual

Sideboard:
4 Engineered Plague
1 Retribution of the Meek
3 Tariff
2 Perish
3 Duress
2 Serenity

Round 1: Dave with Merfolk

Game 1:
A newcomer to Legacy, Dave was playing Merfolk. I get stuck on two lands, he lands Lord, Jitte, Reejery, Reejery. I die.

Board in: 4 Plague, Out: 1 Hymn, 1 Revoker, 1 Thoughtseize, 1 Random

Game 2:
A little different story. I grind him out with Revoker on Vial, then push with heavy discard and run out a Vampire Nighthawk with Jitte. I get there. Nighthawk is SO freaking good here.

Game 3:
I open a hand of Marsh Flats, Swamp, 2 Dark Ritual, Vampire Nighthawk, 2 Abyssal Persecutor. I run out T1 Nighthawk with T2 Persecutor. He dies shortly.

Score: 2-1 in games, 1-0 in matches

Round 2: Matt with Merfolk

Game 1:
He mulls to five, but I get stuck on two lands with all three drops. I scoop to save time after he triple Standstills.

In: 4 Plague, Out: some discard

Game 2:
I ritual into T1 Engineered Plague. He doesn't have Force, but shows me the Daze without the Island down. I get there by discarding his Lords and beating face.

Game 3:
I wreck him with another T1 Plague, but he fights through it. It gets to about turn 15 when I've finally got complete control with a singleton Nighthawk online. He Echoing Truths my Plague, then spits out Lords and other goodies with Force backup. I reply back with Swords of Fire and Ice, Jitte, and Plague from my hand. He can't counter them all, Nighthawk gets there so hard.

Score: 4-2 in games, 2-0 record.

Round 3: Chad with the mirror

The reason I built this was I helped a friend get into Legacy after 15+ years out of the game. This deck was cheap enough to build, and fun to play. His list was my list with no Stoneforges, but Vindicates and Innocent Bloods.

Game 1:
The mirror here is absolutely horrible. We play a 50 minute game of lay a threat, RFG it. It comes down to a Top war, but I basically run out of cards. Literally, I basically died by milling. Ugh.

Game 2: I quickly get there, but he decides to give me the 2-0 so I can crush the finals if I cut him into the prize. Seems good, so I do that. No boarding here.

Round 4: Mani with R/B Painter (Caleb's list)

We decide to draw it, but I forget to ask what he's playing before we draw. I decide to take the draw but we play it out. suffice to say, I fucked his shit up.

Game 1:
He lays a Grindstone early on, but I hit him with heavy discard. The first game was T1 Ritual into Hymn and Top, hitting his Painter and Intuition. I lay a T2 Revoker on Grindstone. He can't counter, and tries to slow roll with Welder. I Edict it, and lay Confidant which is countered. I try Nighthawk, he forces again. I land another threat and he scoops.

I ask him while sideboarding how the Emrakul plan works out, and he says pretty good. I board in Tariffs, Retribution, and Serenity.

Board in: 1 Retribution of the Meek, 3 Tariff, 3 Duress. Out: Abyssal Persecutor, useless cards. At this point, I was threat light with all answers.

Game 2:
He tries to slow roll the Grindstone again, but I Revoker him. He switches to the Show and Tell plan to try and blow me out. He Intuitions for 3 SnT, I Top draw another land for the lols. I'm holding a Tariff and 2 Serenity. I Tariff it away to the crowd's "WTF?" statements, and pay for my Revoker. Afterwards, I try to push, but he counters many threats with Painter on blue and pitching lands to Force. He goes for 3 Emrakuls with another Intuition, making his new Welder useless. I Tariff away the second Emrakul and proceed to lay fat Nighthawk beats.

I receive $25 store credit for my efforts, and buy most of the deck which I was borrowing :)

Record: 8-2 games, 4-0 rounds

Props: Equipment, and Tariff was a fucking champ.

Slops: Not bringing most of my cards, and the store selling me a Beta dual.

All in all, a good day :)

-Matt

[bokwinkle]

What are you people cutting to put in these terrible cards? This is Legacy where you don't have to run bad cards.

Once upon a time people thought that dual lands were terrible cards too - cursing them every time they opened one instead of a shivan dragon. People also used to trade moxen for basic lands.

A card's value is conditional, and I will maintain that cards are worth testing.

[deezy]

For the meta they played in they probably were turds....Shivan used to be boss...lol

[CorpT]

Once upon a time people thought that dual lands were terrible cards too - cursing them every time they opened one instead of a shivan dragon. People also used to trade moxen for basic lands.

A card's value is conditional, and I will maintain that cards are worth testing.

I'll assume from your non-answer that you're removing good cards like Bob to play bad cards.

FYI: It's not 1995 anymore. Most people have a much better handle on card evaluation and Magic theory.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

several things came to my mind when I saw the list

-Why only 3 Scrublands, not 4?
-How good is Phyrexian Crusader in your deck? I don't like Poison in a nonpoison Deck.
-For what the 3 Rituals? If you want it on the Starthand I would play 4 to get it as safe as possible
-Only 4 Discard seems a bit low.
-Why Vials in the Side?
-Why the Equipments in the Side?


You have no chance against Combo, and no good outs against tribal ( I learned it on the last Tourney, don't go out without some Tribalhate like Engineered Plague, EE, Firespout...), two Decks that you will encounter on most Tourneys


(hope that doesn't sound to harsh, that were only questions I would like to answer you, so that I understand your deck better)

Scrubland: I don't need a lot of white, and it's only a 2-color list. I think it's just a bit too redundant with Urborgs turning all of my plains into scrublands, as well as the fairly high amount of basics I run. I don't want recurring wastelands to ruin my day when it doesn't have to. Also, they are fetchable, so it's not like I'm not going to be able to find one if I need it.

Phyrexian Crusader: Pro Red and White is insane against removal. I understand that poison in a non-poison list in unconventional, but if I could just point your attention to the Fireshrieker, you will notice one or two things. First, Double-strike is awesome because damage in the form of -1/-1 counters as a first striker allow you to get the counters on the blocking creature before it strikes. Also, this allows for a total of 4 (or more) poison counters unblocked, which is not difficult because of the other equipment in the list, and easily unblocked via mother of runes. Furthermore, -1/-1 counters on a goyf is actually really good to reduce damage until removal can be found. Also, Jitte is a beast, each counter removed equals 2 more poison counters.

3x Dark Ritual: My testing buddy was arguing with me about this point as well, and it's a good question. Best answer? It's one of the worst topdecks in the list, especially after turn 3. I want to see one a game mostly. I have played pretty much only storm lists for the past year +, and I understand how often you topdeck them, and also how often you see multiples. However, it is good at 3 for the reason that my 3cc slot is fairly saturated, I can play a Gatekeeper on turn one kicked to rid the board of a lackey or any other threat, drop it unkicked for a 2/2 body and throw down a thoughtseize turn one, which is a lot of fun (tempo killa), Rit, thoughtseize, bob, turn one Hippy/N-Hawk/Crusader, I mean it has a lot of application, it's just not necessary as a 4-of, especially with wastelands and plains being about half of my mana. On a side note, Dark Ritual is good (really good) against Spell Pierce.

Only 4x Discard: Not true, 3x Duress in the side for the combo matchup, plus hippies and the ability to swords my own critters to maintain a high enough life that the storm player has to really sculpt his hand. This plus lifelink and hypnotic specter is fairly solid. Also, Disruption + anything with legs + Jitte is awesome because of the lifegain. Also, the pump is good if you are playing against Ad Nauseam lists because the lower in life you get them, the more apt they are to fizzle/die.

Vials in the side: These are in the board for the simple reason that sometimes you have to be less aggressive and be more about resolving important creatures through a counterbalance. There is also vialing in critters at the end of a turn, or during combat, which with infect creatures is good, and so is vialing in Mystic. It's for when you need more tempo, and less explosiveness, I now speak to threat density. They are really important IMO against Merfolk.

Equipments in the Side: This is a personal choice, and if you don't like or have my playstyle, they can be open slots for the things you spoke of my sideboard lacking. I don't like removal for tribal because this list runs 25 creatures, all with either 2/3 cc's or with x/2 toughness, which really sucks. Flying and Lifelink is often what wins games, along with Infect. If Fireshrieker isn't a relevant card in the matchup I'm in, I will side it out for another swords, vice versa. This speaks to threat relevance. Say I'm up against a BG Evagreen. Sword of Fire and Ice will need to come out for a SoLS for the simple fact that it's simply the better choice, and exactly opposite against Goblins/Fish, trading out SoLS for a second SoFI. I try to keep this extremely focused.

The questions were expected, I hope my answers help you understand my list and it's potential. It takes a slightly different approach than most of the lists I've seen on this thread.

--ABC

[bokwinkle]

I'll assume from your non-answer that you're removing good cards like Bob to play bad cards.

FYI: It's not 1995 anymore. Most people have a much better handle on card evaluation and Magic theory.

I fundementally disagree with your assessment of "most people". If "most people" have such a handle on card evaluation and Magic theory and were able to so quickly and easilly discern card value in any given deck we wouldn't need forums and there would only be one version of every deck, and quite possibly only one deck ("the best deck"), because those same people would be able to figure out what the "best deck" is - which is clearly not the case.

And you're right, it's not 1995 anymore, there are a lot more cards, a lot more stragies, and a lot more playstyles and factors that play into what card is "the right card". Bad cards can be good cards - hell people were saying stoneforge mystic was bad too...even 'Goyf was a $5 rare (or less) when he came out - how do you explain that with all of the Magic theory super beings wandering around? lol

My contention is that Mom is too reactive and needs a replacement, and the deck needs a better finisher. I'm actively looking for those cards...although I can't help but just rule a few out (for a multitude of reasons). Through my handle on magic theory I've deduced that the deck has issues that can be corrected, and I'm using card evaluation and *gasp* playtesting *gasp* to find these cards - does that make you feel better?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Well, if you two are quite through being off-topic and effectively trolling, and are also in the mood for *gasp*card evaluation and playstesting*gasp*, maybe you would be interested in giving my new list just a couple posts up a few goldfishes.

Just a thought.

--ABC

[bokwinkle]

Fair enough - although I think that we're both pretty on-topic...although trolling would be an adequate term :rolleyes:

Artifacts
1x Fireshrieker
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Umezawa's Jitte

Creatures
4x Dark Confidant
4x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Hypnotic Specter
4x Vampire Nighthawk
2x Gatekeeper of Malakir
4x Phyrexian Crusader
4x Mother of Runes

Land
2x Plains
2x Swamp
1x Arid Mesa
4x Marsh Flats
3x Scrubland
4x Wasteland
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Spells
3x Dark Ritual
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Thoughtseize
2x Vindicate

In fishing this list I've found the disruption to be a little light for my taste - but I will say that the rituals provided some additional offense that I found interesting, and gave the ability to force the offensive against decks that I'd normally want the disruption against (fish, rock), therefore helping matchups by forcing these decks into the control role. Ultimately though I felt like the card disadvantage that dark ritual provides just make the card unapealing...plus it opens the deck up to 2 for 1's against control opponents - which is a good reason to have vials in the board (but I'll talk more about that in a minute). Also, running 3 rit's and 18 land ended up with some god-aweful opening hands for me - especially with the volume of 3 drops in the deck (14?). Generally if I didn't have an opening hand rit and a couple of land I felt like the hand was too slow and I needed to throw it back.

That being said, I think the number of 3-drops that you have in the deck supports the rituals and card disadvantage, since it won't be often that you play 2 spells on turn 3 like the more common deadguy builds. As a result, getting a turn 1 rit-specter play forced or dazed won't mean that you run out of cards on turn 3, because you're playing slower.

I'm still not crazy about Crusader's infect ability - but he does have the right protections at the right CMC for you build - goldfishing isn't enough for this guy, I'd have to actually playtest him.

It's definately an interesting build, and it tries to push what is a mid-range deck into an aggro deck, but I don't think it gets there - it's just too dependant on ritual (which there is only 3 of, and opens you up to card disadvantage). There are just too many decks that are cheating Emmy and Progenitus into play right now to just have 4 discard spells and too few ways to deal with either of those creatures once they hit the board. Turn 1 Rit-specter seems pretty lame compared to turn 2 Emmy....

We basically have a choice right now - sit in the midrange deck category with a 13-15 card disruption suite and creatures that add additional disruption, become an aggro deck with 4-8 pieces of disruption, or become a control deck with 25 pieces of disruption and bigger finishers. I don't think Black and/or white have the right card compliment (even in legacy) to be anything but midrange and be competitive - I'm still looking for someone to prove me wrong, but I haven't found it yet.

There's some additional little things here, like I don't like an 8-card mystic package (I generally feel it's too heavy), and I don't like a second Urborg Tomb, but most of these items are based on personal preferance more than anything.

Sideboard
4x Æther Vial
3x Pithing Needle
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Smother
1x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Duress
1x Vindicate

A couple things here...

Again with the mystic package - I think 8 cards being dedicated to the main is already too much...another 3 cards in the board definately feels overkill, especially in a deck that is trying to go more aggro, when this approach is a very slow finisher. Generally, in any build of dead-guy that I play I almost never want for MORE equipment. Even swapping out of equipment seems unnecessary...it's more likely that I'm looking for more dudes to swing a stick, rather than a different stick. An opening hand SfM or equipment always feels dead to me against aggro or fast combo - which is a lot of the field right now....there just isn't a ton of control or mid-range (though Rock is making a comeback).

Vial - I like vial in the board, I tend to think that is where it belongs. But you pretty much have to run 4 and your deck should really be made to run it, so it takes a lot of spots, so that's already one strike. Currently your mix between 1cmc, 2cmc, and 3cmc is prohibitive to running vial (this could change out the board...but since you have no creatures in the board it's most likely that your creature count will just go down while your vial count increases, so it's unlikely.) I think the situations where you reach for vial out of the board are pretty slim anyway - unless there's a ton of counter-top in your meta, which you won't be that weak against anyway since so many of your guys are 3cmc.

Needle's a good board card, but I'd be more likely to run Revoker - especially if you want to run vial out of the board. The additional beats that a revoker can offer tend to outweigh the CMC difference IMHO, and the situations where you run either needle or Revoker against a heavy-removal deck are pretty slim.

Lastly, Duress and Vindicate. I don't think this gets you there against combo. You don't have enough main-deck hate to allow 4 more hate cards to make a difference.

Just my $0.02

[Mr. Safety]

I'm still pulling for Stillmoon Cavalier...ESPECIALLY if you're trying to pull off Dark Ritz.

[TsumiBand]

I have to say that at a glance, the equipment package is significantly weaker if you're trying to get the most out of Infect Knight - I don't like the notion that there's only one creature that becomes markedly better with one piece of Equipment in the deck. Like, even a Mother of Runes with a Sword of Fire and Ice is a 3/3 that draws cards and shoots things. In short - again, just as an observation - it looks like trying to pack a Cool Thing in the deck makes the overall capacity weaker. Phyrexian Crusader has no synergy with actual combat damage, and there absolutely will be times when you have an opponent who stabilizes with X health and N poison counters, and you'll wish that X + N = one fucking win condition. And let's say you've got one Hypnotic Specter and one Phyrexian Crusader in play, and one Fireshrieker - who do you give it to? They don't win the game for the same reasons, and not only that but Fireshrieker offers no protection from anything like the Swords or even a loaded Jitte can.

I also think that running Dark Ritual pushes the deck in a different direction. It's not like a first turn Hypnotic Specter doesn't look pretty good with a second turn Tidehollow Sculler, but there are going to be times when you wished your White spells were Black because you're holding two lands and a Ritual and can't accelerate into anything.

So yeah, I think the Fireshrieker and Rituals and Hyppies and Infect Knights should all go into a different deck, and then we should make *that* deck win games, because really it feels like a whole different plan of attack altogether.

[warfordium]

hi all.

i've been back to Magic about 3 months after last playing as a teen. i decided to build deadguy as it was closest to what i used to play back when Strip Mine was a 4-of and Wastelands were afterthoughts. oh, and when you had Vampiric and Demonic Tutors available. and when Icy Manipulator and Jayemdae Tome were hot tech.

but back to the present: i've been lurking for a while, and i'm still getting used to the deck, but maybe my impressions can be of some value.

my list:

Lands

1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Plains
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Wasteland
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
5 Swamp

Spells

3 Dark Ritual
2 Innocent Blood
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate

Creatures

4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Abyssal Persecutor

Artifacts

3 Sensei's Divining Top

first up: i've been playing around with Dark Rituals. i've been reading the Gate thread a bit, and there's debate over the explosiveness vs. card disadvantage. my take on it is this: when it works well, it works very very well. when it works poorly—you get the idea. T1 Thoughtseize + Hymn is good, or Thoughtseize + Cabal Therapy + Top is nice, but T1 Nighthawks or T2 Persecutors are usually dealt with.

the whole reason i went in that direction was my horrible game 1s against speed and tribal—anything slower like Team America or Rock, Aggro Bant, even counterbalance or thresh, i'm good against, but Vial Goblins or Merfolk just overwhelm you, often even with a seemingly good hand. (ugh, dont get me started on Affinity.) i think part of this is down to my still-not-quite-there mulligan discipline (never, never keep a hand without discard! how many times!!), but the deck lacks explosiveness in a certain sense. somewhat counterintuitively, this weakness is exploited if T1 Hymn hits redundancies or less-than-critical pieces of the opponent's hand. waiting for t2 or even t3 (while risky against the fast decks) lets the opponent's hand 'concentrate', with the less-critical pieces and land often on the board.

with this in mind i'm mulling over losing the Dark Rituals, adding more targeted discard—Duress, Inquisition of Kozilek, and Tidehollow Sculler, for example—and going all in with 4 Wastelands with a view to getting to the mid-game.

second issue is what happens when a T1 threat IS landed. take a T1 Lackey or Vial. adding the 2 innocent blood to the 4 swords to plowshares in the deck has helped in the first instance, but a resolved vial tends to spell the end for me in the second, especially against merfolk (counters for plowshares, edicts, and vindicates). by T3 when the catch-all Vindicate or stabilizing Nighthawk shows up, the tide has already turned. post-board hate (in the form of 4 Engineered Plague, usually) has thus far failed to get me there.

against tribal, i'm thinking about Ghostly Prison in addition to Engineered Plague in the board, and perhaps Pithing Needle board or Phyrexian Revoker maindeck for the vials. i also cast my mind back to Wrath of God... or Damnation, but would they be too slow?

speaking of pithing needle and pithing beetle, i feel i need an answer to Affinity and Forgemaster/Painter's Servant combos. Pithing Needle or Phyrexian Revoker would do the trick now (naming Cranial Plating, Greaves/Forgemaster/Voltaic Key/Grim Monolith, or Grindstone)—but teenaged me maindecked 4 disenchant, and i'm beginning to wonder if thats not so crazy, despite being narrow hate. it would also help with vials, and boarded-in Leylines of Sanctity..... short that, Serenity in the sideboard is some nice tech.

and while on the topic of sideboard tech, i absolutely love playing against dredge. its almost serene knowing you'll drop game 1 by accelerating them into their graveyard, only to board out all discard and in all the grave hate (Leyline of the Void, Relic of Progenitus, and Extirpate). a single relic gets you there most of the time, and a second one is game over.

the last issue is what to do against the snuck-in/accelerated fatty (Emrakul, Blightsteel Colossus, Progenitus). in Show-n-Tell an Edict or Innocent Blood should be the ticket, but in an NO, elves, or Forgemaster matchup the presence of other creatures combined with untargetability is a pickle. a friend's take on the deck (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19432-%5BDeck%5D-The-Rock&p=531345&viewfull=1#post531345) has Tariff and Retribution of the Meek in the board for just those situations.

given that i'm catching up on 15 years of increased diversity with the Legacy playables of dozens of new sets to learn, i hope i'll soon think less in term of the sideboard and more about how some smarter, more skillful play can increase my success with the deck and minimize its weaknesses against the array of strategies out there.

but, until i get some more play experience under my belt, how can we improve the versatility of the deck against non-aggro, cheating, and fast tribal?