Poll: Reserved List

[PirateKing]

With all the discussion to whether or not people would be happy or hurt over changes to the Reserved List, I wondered what the actual bulk of opinions here are. I have my hunches but I'll keep quiet until after some results.

[Ayotte]

This poll is not representative of how the magic-playing community would react. There's pretty heavy selection bias going on.

[John Cox]

It doesn't matter if there was a 90% majority or even higher. A class action suite against wizards would be a big problem for them. They're never getting rid of the reserved list. 100 people are all it's going to take to stop it from happening.

[PirateKing]

Ayotte

True, the poll is only representative of those participating.

In debates over the Reserved List, the point is always made that Chronicles upset enough players to bring about the thing in the first place, and thus, any changes or abandonment to the policy would equally upset and equal number of players. While by no means closure, I thought it to be interesting to have numbers generated by the very people I was talking to as reference.

[Lt. Quattro]

This poll is not representative of how the magic-playing community would react. There's pretty heavy selection bias going on.

The majority of the magic playing community are kitchen table/casual players. I doubt they would care about the reserved list or even know what it is.

Of the people that would be impacted by reserved list reprints, I think this poll would show it. I don't know how large the commander population is on the source, but I doubt they would bitch about the chance to get more reserved list staples.

[(nameless one)]

It will upset old collectors and players. Players that don't really buy packs. The same players Time Spiral block was made for but didn't support it (which made the block one of the biggest flops sales-wise).

So why should WotC appease to them?

I personally think WotC has fixed this problem: make cards that will cost a lot in recent sets. Look Jace, Fetchlands and other standard money cards.

This guarantees that the if you support their business; once in a while you get a pat in the back. I know a guy that drafts all the time. Back in Innistrad/Dark Ascension season, he opened enough Lilliana from draft that he had enough "money" to build the rest of his Modern (and now going to be Legacy) Jund.

That said, I still do not like the Reserved List.

I think the point I'm trying to get through is that eternal players like to complain but if WotC listens to them, they don't really support them.

[thecrav]

Agree with the problem of selection bias. You're asking players, who are more likely to want to play.

Can we just get something like this stickied so people can be thrown to it every time a thread turns into complaining about the reserved list?

[bruizar]

It will upset old collectors and players. Players that don't really buy packs. The same players Time Spiral block was made for but didn't support it (which made the block one of the biggest flops sales-wise).

So why should WotC appease to them?

I personally think WotC has fixed this problem: make cards that will cost a lot in recent sets. Look Jace, Fetchlands and other standard money cards.

This guarantees that the if you support their business; once in a while you get a pat in the back. I know a guy that drafts all the time. Back in Innistrad/Dark Ascension season, he opened enough Lilliana from draft that he had enough "money" to build the rest of his Modern (and now going to be Legacy) Jund.

That said, I still do not like the Reserved List.

I think the point I'm trying to get through is that eternal players like to complain but if WotC listens to them, they don't really support them.

I hope people realize that the fact that standard money rares are as expensive as they are, is also the reason why eternal cards are as expensive as they are. A Snapcaster Mage or Liliana of the Veil should never cost more than The Abyss or Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, so if cards like liliana of the veil become 100$ cards, guess what happens to out of print eternal staples? Sure as hell not going to trade them away for less than a standard mythic rare.

[ryO!]

I hope people realize that the fact that standard money rares are as expensive as they are, is also the reason why eternal cards are as expensive as they are. A Snapcaster Mage or Liliana of the Veil should never cost more than The Abyss or Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, so if cards like liliana of the veil become 100$ cards, guess what happens to out of print eternal staples? Sure as hell not going to trade them away for less than a standard mythic rare.

FINALLY some comon sense, damn it was about time.

i thought i was the only one thinking the same.

[PirateKing]

24 hours out and at least you have to give credit that the majority of respondents are aware of how their own views reflect those around them.
Apologies towards the indifferent, I probably should have just given you a sing choice, since I'm sure you are equally indifferent to how your opinion falls.

[kusumoto]

It doesn't matter if there was a 90% majority or even higher. A class action suite against wizards would be a big problem for them. They're never getting rid of the reserved list. 100 people are all it's going to take to stop it from happening.

I hear this a lot and it sounds silly every time.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

That's because it is silly.

[Lemnear]

That's because it is silly.

+1

A legal issue against WotC in case they "break the promise given concerning the Reserved List" has no chance. I have trust in the US law regarding such stupidity

[Malchar]

Abolishing the reserved list would cause collectors and older players to lose a huge amount of the value of their collection. All of that value would be transferred to Wizards, since they would be the ones who could make the reprints and cash in. New players would be excited to buy the previously reserved cards and also gain a lot of value by purchasing the reprint products that Wizards makes.

It sounds like a typical redistribution of wealth. Take from the players who have already invested thousands of dollars and give it to the new players. Of course, the new players aren't actually receiving valuable tangible goods. The value that they receive is the ability it play with these cards for much cheaper than normal. All the while, Wizards stands to make huge profits as long as the majority of players happen to be on the receiving end of the redistribution.

How come people don't just play with proxies? People already do proxied vintage tournaments. If legacy is really as popular as people say it is, and if the cards really are prohibitively expensive, then why not hold proxy tournaments? Go to your local game store and ask them to hold proxy legacy tournaments. They wouldn't make any more money by running normal legacy tournaments anyway since people aren't buying the cards from them.

[WorstBandNameEver]

I would rather see it modified with small, annual reprints the increase the amount of cards.

[Barook]

+1

A legal issue against WotC in case they "break the promise given concerning the Reserved List" has no chance. I have trust in the US law regarding such stupidity
Apple patented "round corners" and won the lawsuit. I think everything is possible.

[Megadeus]

I dont think we need Dual Lands to be tanked to 10 bucks, but I do think prices should come down a bit. Like has been said, it needs to be prohibitive enough that not everyone can just derp around in legacy. It's barriers of entry should block out the players who arent ready and willing to an extent.

[clavio]

I dont think we need Dual Lands to be tanked to 10 bucks, but I do think prices should come down a bit. Like has been said, it needs to be prohibitive enough that not everyone can just derp around in legacy. It's barriers of entry should block out the players who arent ready and willing to an extent.

Why? They would add more money to the prize pool without ever winning anything.

[Megadeus]

Why? They would add more money to the prize pool without ever winning anything.

I like playing against people that understand how the game works. One reason I really hate playing at prereleases is the people who are playing for their first time dont understand how the game worls...

[kusumoto]

I like playing against people that understand how the game works. One reason I really hate playing at prereleases is the people who are playing for their first time dont understand how the game worls...

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pot%20monster

[Megadeus]

Like I said. I hate playing against new people. And I suck so that definition applies to me. I just like competent players...

[CorwinB]

I wouldn't mind for them to reopen the "foil loophole", and start printing some nice Reserved List goodies for Judges (or similar limited distribution). OTOH, I would definitely be very pissed off if they went crazy with reprints.

Anyway this is very idle speculation, because they won't reprint anything. Not only because of the RL, but because I'm becoming more and more convinced that their "end game" doesn't have much room for Legacy or Vintage, because the way those formats are played don't fit into their vision of how the game should proceed, and because Eternal players don't buy enough packs.

[Mr.C]

I wouldn't mind for them to reopen the "foil loophole", and start printing some nice Reserved List goodies for Judges (or similar limited distribution). OTOH, I would definitely be very pissed off if they went crazy with reprints.

Anyway this is very idle speculation, because they won't reprint anything. Not only because of the RL, but because I'm becoming more and more convinced that their "end game" doesn't have much room for Legacy or Vintage, because the way those formats are played don't fit into their vision of how the game should proceed, and because Eternal players don't buy enough packs.

Maybe their eventual aim is to make Legacy and Vintage kind of like the Pokemon Unlimited format, where it isn't used for large events. Probably Legacy will be like Vintage; GenCon and Europe only, but nothing else sponsored by WotC.

Too bad.

[baghdadbob]

It's a b.s. idea in my opinion that the reserved list exists.
1) Beta, alpha, and unlimited cards will still be worth a piss load of money.
2) More people will be able to play eternal formats without selling their souls.
3) Wizards will make a bunch more money than they would for not reprinting.
4) It's fucking cardboard.
5) New art!

The only people that don't want the reserved list dropped are people that will be super butt hurt because they had paid 1000 dollars for a single dual land and people that dumb shouldn't be able to breed.

[baghdadbob]

I personally think WotC has fixed this problem: make cards that will cost a lot in recent sets. Look Jace, Fetchlands and other standard money cards.

...or this. However have you seen Gatecrash? :tongue:

[Lemnear]

Apple patented "round corners" and won the lawsuit. I think everything is possible.

Amazing, you can penalize 80% of all smartphone, tablet pc's, TV's, fucking batteries and sandwich-toster if that is real *facepalm*

Ok, stupid me. I already know that some people tried to put a trademark on certain words/phrases there. Why expect some sanity...

[AEnesidem]

Like I said. I hate playing against new people. And I suck so that definition applies to me. I just like competent players...

I understand what you mean, however, when i quoted you i probably meant something else with "restrictive entry". Legacy has a whole other feel than other formats. Mainly because the players are more mature. The population playing legacy is often older because a lot of money is needed to enter the format. This makes legacy tournaments often more fun to go to IMO. The price barrier and nature of the format makes it so that not every random player can jump onto the legacy train. It kind of filters out he player base.

That doesn't mean i don't want the prices to lower. Prices are insane now. I thought i already payed much when i paid 60 for my Tundra's. Certainly if i look at the poor fellows in America, man those prices are insaaaaane there.

[joretapo]

Remember that wizard uses eternal staples as dollar bills to pay judges

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Apple patented "round corners" and won the lawsuit. I think everything is possible.

That lawsuit involved 1) a loaded plaintiff, and 2) alleged damages worth billions of dollars.

It's hard enough getting the justice system to recognize the value of Magic cards at all. Private actors that don't have massive disposable incomes trying to sue a company for revising its own policy on the basis that their Magic cards lost value, real or speculative? Yeah, good luck with that.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

Anyway this is very idle speculation, because they won't reprint anything. Not only because of the RL, but because I'm becoming more and more convinced that their "end game" doesn't have much room for Legacy or Vintage, because the way those formats are played don't fit into their vision of how the game should proceed, and because Eternal players don't buy enough packs.

Yeah, there's no real incentive for Wizards to support Legacy and Vintage. It's too resource-intensive to design for these formats given the low returns; they'll spend a whole bunch of time trying (and likely failing) to design good Eternal cards or cards that won't break the format. Look at how badly they screwed up with Misstep. And every player-hour spent playing Vintage/Legacy is an hour not spent playing Standard/Limited, the big revenue driver formats. They've already got EDH as the, "Hey guys, your old cards still have value!" format...they don't need Legacy/Vintage.

But I do think they have something else guiding their policy on the Reserve List besides a method to quietly snuff out Legacy/Vintage as serious formats. Why? Thunder Spirit. I bet in nearly every set, and every core set, R&D would love a 1WW Flying, First Strike 2/2 in Limited, but the Reserve List cockblocks them. Seems likely that if the Reserve List was nothing but a "screw Legacy/Vintage" institution they would have violated it just for this...but they never have.

[Lord Seth]

Yeah, there's no real incentive for Wizards to support Legacy and Vintage. It's too resource-intensive to design for these formats given the low returns; they'll spend a whole bunch of time trying (and likely failing) to design good Eternal cards or cards that won't break the format. Look at how badly they screwed up with Misstep. And every player-hour spent playing Vintage/Legacy is an hour not spent playing Standard/Limited, the big revenue driver formats. They've already got EDH as the, "Hey guys, your old cards still have value!" format...they don't need Legacy/Vintage.

But I do think they have something else guiding their policy on the Reserve List besides a method to quietly snuff out Legacy/Vintage as serious formats. Why? Thunder Spirit. I bet in nearly every set, and every core set, R&D would love a 1WW Flying, First Strike 2/2 in Limited, but the Reserve List cockblocks them. Seems likely that if the Reserve List was nothing but a "screw Legacy/Vintage" institution they would have violated it just for this...but they never have.There are some other factors that lead me to believe keeping the list around isn't just because "well, Legacy doesn't make us money like Standard does." Such as:
1) Getting rid of the list doesn't mean they have to reprint anything on it. Mana Drain isn't on the list, it's never been reprinted. They could get rid of the list and never reprint anything on it. So why keep themselves bound? They could stand to make some money off of it without really giving any "true" support to Legacy (e.g. putting the cards in very limited edition stuff like that Commander's Aresenal)
2) Why get rid of the promo loophole?
3) Why create Modern, which ultimately has the same strikes against it as Legacy? It's also a lot harder to develop for than Standard (supposedly, they don't even try), it also can potentially take people away from Standard/Limited, etc.
4) According to Mark Rosewater, they won't be doing things like Reverberate in the future (that is, things that aren't technically violations). Fork barely sees play in Legacy and isn't worth much, so why do that?

We can really only speculate what their reasoning is, but I really don't think it's "hey, this makes it so we don't have to support Legacy" for the above reasons.

[clavio]

Like I said. I hate playing against new people. And I suck so that definition applies to me. I just like competent players...

What about competent players that aren't loaded? I'm sure there are ~17 year olds that are really good at this game but don't have thousands of dollars to make a mana base.

[baghdadbob]

Remember that wizard uses eternal staples as dollar bills to pay judges

Is that true? If it is then i'm okay with not retracting the reserved list.

[Megadeus]

What about competent players that aren't loaded? I'm sure there are ~17 year olds that are really good at this game but don't have thousands of dollars to make a mana base.

Thats rough. I am a college student who sucks at this game and I choose to spend my very limited funds to play legacy. Like I said, I think prices are a bit high at the moment, but as many have said, this game is a luxury and not everyone is going to be able to afford it. I want more people to be able to play legacy and I wouldnt mind if my few staples that I own were worth less if it meant that our Wednesday night legacy tourney got ten more people every week, but I also want to play against people that I dont need to explain every interaction to.

[Lord Seth]

Is that true? If it is then i'm okay with not retracting the reserved list.How does "Wizards gives promo cards to judges" lead to the conclusion of "Reserved List is okay"?

I'm not seeing any logical connection between these two statements.

[Mr.C]

Is that true? If it is then i'm okay with not retracting the reserved list.

All Judge foils in the last three years have been non-reserved cards.

[baghdadbob]

How does "Wizards gives promo cards to judges" lead to the conclusion of "Reserved List is okay"?

I'm not seeing any logical connection between these two statements.

You're going to have to re-read what I quoted guy because that's not even close to what he said. He said "eternal staples" which to me means duals/power 9.

[Lord Seth]

You're going to have to re-read what I quoted guy because that's not even close to what he said.I did read what he said. He was talking about promo cards for judges. Which is what I said.
He said "eternal staples" which to me means duals/power 9.That's an assumption you made, not what he said.

But sure, let's make sure we specify that eternal staples bit. "Judges get promos cards that are sometimes staples in eternal formats" does not lead to "reserved list is fine." You still haven't offered any connecting logic between these two rather unrelated statements.

[baghdadbob]

That's because I misunderstood the guy and like you said assumed incorrectly. I read eternal staples and my mind went to duals and p9, now that I know that is not true I retract my statement. Can we still be friends or would you rather step on my balls some more?

[goblinsplayer]

I would like it if they abolished the reserved list. I would not mind at all if my collection was worth less anyways. I'd guess i don't speak for most people because I'm 13 and play mono red goblins. :P

Oh, and TES, but that thing has like 3 dual lands in it.

[joretapo]

That's because I misunderstood the guy and like you said assumed incorrectly. I read eternal staples and my mind went to duals and p9, now that I know that is not true I retract my statement. Can we still be friends or would you rather step on my balls some more?

Lol ;)

[cartoonist]

If Wizards teases - blatantly - an abolishment of the Reserved List for a year or so, that would give collectors a chance to cash out. Granted, the value would come down anyway because of the rumors, but it would be something.

[DragoFireheart]

It doesn't matter if there was a 90% majority or even higher. A class action suite against wizards would be a big problem for them. They're never getting rid of the reserved list. 100 people are all it's going to take to stop it from happening.

Bullshit.

There isn't a 100 people that might file a class action lawsuit. They don't exist. They have never existed.

The real issue is WotC can't profit off of removing the Reserved List. That's why they won't ever bother with it.

[PirateKing]

The real issue is WotC can't profit off of removing the Reserved List. That's why they won't ever bother with it.

You don't think if Wizards abolished the list, announced some kind of limited print run, "Legacy Legends" or something, MSRP $7.95 a pack with mythic new art black bordered dual lands and Thoughtseize and JTMS and whatnot, that people wouldn't buy them?

As it stands there is money to be made either way, as it is now with SCG leading the way with large gains for eternal staples. Or Wizards could decide they like money too and support Legacy by printing cards that people are already willing to spend $100 for.

[Julian23]

Making a profit of abolishing the reserved list is easy as stealing from children. I mean, Legacy Masters anyone? What about a having several GPs and a PTQ season fed by Legacy Masters? This would be kind of bringing Cube into the competitive scene - everybody loves Legacy, everybody loves Cube, everybody loves more people being able to play Legacy. And what's the special #1 price for winning the first Legacy Masters GP? WotC will make you announce the reprint of the original 10 Duals in the next set - which is going to be unveilled as Urza's Timemachine.

Oh yeah baby...

[Monkey_Island]

Making a profit of abolishing the reserved list is easy as stealing from children. I mean, Legacy Masters anyone? What about a having several GPs and a PTQ season fed by Legacy Masters? This would be kind of bringing Cube into the competitive scene - everybody loves Legacy, everybody loves Cube, everybody loves more people being able to play Legacy. And what's the special #1 price for winning the first Legacy Masters GP? WotC will make you announce the reprint of the original 10 Duals in the next set - which is going to be unveilled as Urza's Timemachine.

Oh yeah baby...

I just wet my pants!

[thecrav]

You don't think if Wizards abolished the list, announced some kind of limited print run, "Legacy Legends" or something, MSRP $7.95 a pack with mythic new art black bordered dual lands and Thoughtseize and JTMS and whatnot, that people wouldn't buy them?

Unless they printed them like a real set (quantity, that is), I don't think any of those would end up in the hands of players.

[Mr.C]

Unless they printed them like a real set (quantity, that is), I don't think any of those would end up in the hands of players.

Yeah, they'd have to print it as much as RTR, and even then...

Foil duals omg... Print it in Russian and Korean too.

[DragoFireheart]

You don't think if Wizards abolished the list, announced some kind of limited print run, "Legacy Legends" or something, MSRP $7.95 a pack with mythic new art black bordered dual lands and Thoughtseize and JTMS and whatnot, that people wouldn't buy them?

As it stands there is money to be made either way, as it is now with SCG leading the way with large gains for eternal staples. Or Wizards could decide they like money too and support Legacy by printing cards that people are already willing to spend $100 for.

Nah, they make most of their money from Standard. They might get a boost at first, but once everyone got the cards they needed packs wouldn't sell anymore.

With Standard, they keep changing it and making new cards. With Legacy, most of the good cards are set in place. Also, WotC wouldn't start selling singles, less they piss of the stores that support them.

[Darkenslight]

Nah, they make most of their money from Standard. They might get a boost at first, but once everyone got the cards they needed packs wouldn't sell anymore.

With Standard, they keep changing it and making new cards. With Legacy, most of the good cards are set in place. Also, WotC wouldn't start selling singles, less they piss of the stores that support them.

...So make it a Limited print run like a typical Standard set?

[Mr.C]

Also, I think this will only happen when Magic wanes in popularity again. Eventually, the new players will quit, sales will dip, and they will have to think of a way to bring the "old players" back. Abolishing the list may be a solution, depending on how bad the dip is.

[thecrav]

A friend in chat put it really well. Just about everyone in this forum has a handful of dual lands. Even if it's only a playset of blue duals, that's 500+ USD invested, with many of us holding much more.

That being said, would you accept allA/B/U duals being banned if they printed a format-legal functional reprint to allow more players to play?

As a collector, my answer would be no.

As a player (which I am first and foremost), I say absolutely yes. The entire argument is whether we are willing to accept a reduced value of our collection in exchange for an increased playerbase.

[Lord Seth]

A friend in chat put it really well. Just about everyone in this forum has a handful of dual lands. Even if it's only a playset of blue duals, that's 500+ USD invested, with many of us holding much more.

That being said, would you accept allA/B/U duals being banned if they printed a format-legal functional reprint to allow more players to play?

As a collector, my answer would be no.

As a player (which I am first and foremost), I say absolutely yes. The entire argument is whether we are willing to accept a reduced value of our collection in exchange for an increased playerbase.The problem I have with banning the dual lands is the way it unbalances the format. Without the dual lands, everyone defaults to the shocklands, which by itself is fine. The problem is that this suddenly powers up Wasteland significantly. With the original duals, Wasteland had an important job in the format, and that was to give them a legitimate disadvantage to use them. But the shocklands (and all other dual lands) have their disadvantage built into them. So I feel that would power Wasteland up too much; you already are disadvantaged by it being tapped or taking 2 damage, no need to add Wasteland on top of that. But we can't ban Wasteland too, because then the other abusive nonbasics (Mishra's Factory, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Maze of Ith) can all run amuck much more easily.

I feel like if you were to ban the original dual lands, you'd have to ban a bunch of other stuff to keep things balanced.

[Arsenal]

The problem I have with banning the dual lands is the way it unbalances the format. Without the dual lands, everyone defaults to the shocklands, which by itself is fine. The problem is that this suddenly powers up Wasteland significantly. With the original duals, Wasteland had an important job in the format, and that was to give them a legitimate disadvantage to use them. But the shocklands (and all other dual lands) have their disadvantage built into them. So I feel that would power Wasteland up too much; you already are disadvantaged by it being tapped or taking 2 damage, no need to add Wasteland on top of that. But we can't ban Wasteland too, because then the other abusive nonbasics (Mishra's Factory, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Maze of Ith) can all run amuck much more easily.

I feel like if you were to ban the original dual lands, you'd have to ban a bunch of other stuff to keep things balanced.

I think thecrav was suggesting that Wizards ban the A/B/U/R duals from any currently legal format, abolish The Reserved List, then print functional reprints, so that we'd still have access to Swamp Island, but so would every Standard/Modern player that cracks packs that's interested in Legacy. His point was that the collectibility angle would take a hit as the A/B/U/R duals are now banned, but from a player's perspective, it would be good as it would assuredly promote growth in Legacy.

[TsumiBand]

A friend in chat put it really well. Just about everyone in this forum has a handful of dual lands. Even if it's only a playset of blue duals, that's 500+ USD invested, with many of us holding much more.

That being said, would you accept allA/B/U duals being banned if they printed a format-legal functional reprint to allow more players to play?

As a collector, my answer would be no.

As a player (which I am first and foremost), I say absolutely yes. The entire argument is whether we are willing to accept a reduced value of our collection in exchange for an increased playerbase.

First of all, they are unable to print functional reprints, or apparently even one-offs. Fork/Reverberate for example; someone somewhere "got in trouble" over Reverberate, so there can never be a Snow Dual or similarly worded functional analog without a drawback - hence those beautiful shocklands.

Second, as one of a handful of individuals on this board who has never had reasonable means to acquire any ABRU dual lands (and has already been in the unfortunate position of liquidating the bulk of his collection a few years back), I do not care if the price of duals drops to $0.05 tomorrow. The people who complain about how there's too goddamned many threads on this board regarding the Reserve Policy and the price of format staples are absolutely right - the discussion has gone on for-balls-ever and it's all moot, because unless there's a major league change of heart over as Hasbro/Wizards/whatever, things will simply continue in the direction they're headed.

Whatever that means; I'm not saying the format is going to crumble under its own entry fee. But you know, I'm just starting to get a little sick of dual lands being this carrot on a string that can only get shorter and further away. I could piss and moan about my station in life and I could get a bunch of "shut the fuck up and get a real job" speeches, but the fact of the matter is I'm gainfully employed - I just have obligations that demand priority over cardboard. I just have more and more difficulty accepting the amount of money that I should be asked to throw at some goddamned Badlands. It's just stupid. I don't like being actively priced out of the game with each passing day.

[Lord Seth]

I think thecrav was suggesting that Wizards ban the A/B/U/R duals from any currently legal format, abolish The Reserved List, then print functional reprints, so that we'd still have access to Swamp Island, but so would every Standard/Modern player that cracks packs that's interested in Legacy. His point was that the collectibility angle would take a hit as the A/B/U/R duals are now banned, but from a player's perspective, it would be good as it would assuredly promote growth in Legacy.Ah, my bad for misreading it. Sorry!

[thecrav]

I think thecrav was suggesting that Wizards ban the A/B/U/R duals from any currently legal format, abolish The Reserved List, then print functional reprints, so that we'd still have access to Swamp Island, but so would every Standard/Modern player that cracks packs that's interested in Legacy. His point was that the collectibility angle would take a hit as the A/B/U/R duals are now banned, but from a player's perspective, it would be good as it would assuredly promote growth in Legacy.

Chiming in to confirm that this is what I meant.

[lordofthepit]

A friend in chat put it really well. Just about everyone in this forum has a handful of dual lands. Even if it's only a playset of blue duals, that's 500+ USD invested, with many of us holding much more.

That being said, would you accept allA/B/U duals being banned if they printed a format-legal functional reprint to allow more players to play?

As a collector, my answer would be no.

As a player (which I am first and foremost), I say absolutely yes. The entire argument is whether we are willing to accept a reduced value of our collection in exchange for an increased playerbase.

Hell no. This is the absolute worst of all worlds. You manage to subvert the Reserved List since functional reprints are already not permitted. You absolutely tank the value of cards not only for the players, but also for the collectors, who will still have the same inclination to sue, if not more so, since this is probably even more damaging to their collection value (since their original copies are useless in Legacy). And now we have to hunt down new copies of these functional reprints, all so you can arbitrarily ban a subset of cards and reprint a new set in order to circumvent an equally arbitrary reprint policy.

If it's ever necessary to inject a greater supply of duals (and many people would argue we're already at this point or that we are nearing it), then they should just do away with the Reserved List.

[mini1337s]

Wizards could probably get a majority of people to shut up if they only reprinted duals. I think we could support dual land reprints in Commander decks in a series of 10 two-color commander decks, allowing EDH players a chance at a dual land, but giving people to option to move their 1-of for value.

[Darkenslight]

Wizards could probably get a majority of people to shut up if they only reprinted duals. I think we could support dual land reprints in Commander decks in a series of 10 two-color commander decks, allowing EDH players a chance at a dual land, but giving people to option to move their 1-of for value.

Even making each one a $50 precon with a dual of that color in would help immensely...provided ton sof dealers didn't just jack up the price on these to match the current dual price.

[kusumoto]

Even making each one a $50 precon with a dual of that color in would help immensely...provided ton sof dealers didn't just jack up the price on these to match the current dual price.

Well, of course the dealers would jack up the price.

[PirateKing]

Well, of course the dealers would jack up the price.

Not if they're printed in quantities such that every Walmart and such carry them. That would work well. Commander decks with one dual land and one fetch land for $59.95 or whatever the price of the next Call of Duty is. It would be expensive for Magic, but if you think about it, it's not that expensive really.

If you think about it there isn't really much reason for any of this to not be possible. Which more and more leads me to believe that there must be something else at work here.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

So two things on the economics of reprinting duals;

1) Private dealers don't have the power to just set market prices. Even Starcity or whatever. So they can't just "jack up" the prices unilaterally or even acting in concert (at least not with ease.)

2) Hasbro doesn't make money if people really really want to buy some new product and do so by deferring other expenses; they only make money if they raise the net number of buyers or the average monthly expenditures of their regular customers.

[PirateKing]

2) Hasbro doesn't make money if people really really want to buy some new product and do so by deferring other expenses; they only make money if they raise the net number of buyers or the average monthly expenditures of their regular customers.

I think the issue becomes that Legacy players don't buy packs. After all this time being conditioned to rely on the stupidly easy source of single cards, there is no market to Hasboro.
Even if they reprinted dual lands in some capacity, the majority of Legacy players would probably just buy them from SCG anyway.
So there has to be something else there for Hasboro to see any reason to change their policies.

Either forming their own single market for select Reserve List cards (massively unlikely) or putting a dual land in every pack such that the single price would be no different than the pack price, then there would be no point in buying singles (pretty much the same thing as before, never going to happen) or something else I can't think of (more likely) or it will never be profitable to modify the Reserved List and we're stuck here (most likely).

[Star|Scream]

I think the issue becomes that Legacy players don't buy packs. After all this time being conditioned to rely on the stupidly easy source of single cards, there is no market to Hasboro.
Even if they reprinted dual lands in some capacity, the majority of Legacy players would probably just buy them from SCG anyway.
So there has to be something else there for Hasboro to see any reason to change their policies.

Either forming their own single market for select Reserve List cards (massively unlikely) or putting a dual land in every pack such that the single price would be no different than the pack price, then there would be no point in buying singles (pretty much the same thing as before, never going to happen) or something else I can't think of (more likely) or it will never be profitable to modify the Reserved List and we're stuck here (most likely).

How does it follow that legacy players do not contribute to Wizards' profits? Just because a singles purchase doesn't immediately go into the company's bank account doesn't mean that they're not making money off of it. The only place where Wizards directly takes in money is from their distributors. However, all of the singles purchases drive demand for product, which in turn is bought and opened. Granted, they've stopped making money off of the original dual lands, but they will definitely profit off of any product they make with legacy playable cards.

[PirateKing]

How does it follow that legacy players do not contribute to Wizards' profits? Just because a singles purchase doesn't immediately go into the company's bank account doesn't mean that they're not making money off of it. The only place where Wizards directly takes in money is from their distributors. However, all of the singles purchases drive demand for product, which in turn is bought and opened. Granted, they've stopped making money off of the original dual lands, but they will definitely profit off of any product they make with legacy playable cards.

Because the money to be made would not be by Hasboro. Just look at any of the FTV sets. MSRP is $40 and the cheapest you can get them from any distributor is $100.
The cost to produce one pack is pretty universal across the spectrum. A popular set like Ravnica or Innistrad get bought up in huge numbers by Standard players and some open up foil shock lands, but other open up Volatile Rig. But despite the fact that there are more bad cards then good, they continue to buy packs. Hasboro makes money.
If they produce packs containing dual lands, distributors will buy them, open them, and sell the lands for $50 each. Any packs being sold will be for $35 each or something like that.
Meanwhile, the MSRP would have been the same, so Hasboro makes an equal profit, while SCG reaps huge gains.
So why bother changing anything? If you can make money with Dragon's Maze level shit, why bother printing anything else?

So yes Wizards would make money, but no more than they are going to make from M14 or whatever this greek thing is coming next.

[Tinefol]

There's a solution, which I think gets around the Reserved list.

Don't reprint stuff. Just release an additional print run of, say, Revised. Old frame/new frame, whatever. A great opportunity to introduce modern wordings, new artwork, fix production errors (or you can do it as close to original as possible, I don't care). Not a reprint in a letter of it, not a reprint in a spirit, just an additional print run. I guess it would even sell well.

[AEnesidem]

There's a solution, which I think gets around the Reserved list.

Don't reprint stuff. Just release an additional print run of, say, Revised. Old frame/new frame, whatever. A great opportunity to introduce modern wordings, new artwork, fix production errors (or you can do it as close to original as possible, I don't care). Not a reprint in a letter of it, not a reprint in a spirit, just an additional print run. I guess it would even sell well.

You can say it in any way you want but that's still reprinting and that will still have the effects of a reprint. Wizards would still break their promise by doing that.

Wizards apparently stated themselves they gegret it but it's a promise, they can't just break that without losing the trust of many players.

[Mr. Ages]

What about a Player's Edition? White Bordered, updated card face, updated text. Non-collectible. No rarities. Simply print in such a way that a full box of boosters would yield one card each from the set. Buy 4 boxes and you have playsets of everything from the set. This would be for the players, not the collectors. High print runs, so there is no scarcity. If you really wanted to protect the secondary market, you could make them all text only, but tournament legal. Sort of official proxies.

[Lemnear]

What about a Player's Edition? White Bordered, updated card face, updated text. Non-collectible. No rarities. Simply print in such a way that a full box of boosters would yield one card each from the set. Buy 4 boxes and you have playsets of everything from the set. This would be for the players, not the collectors. High print runs, so there is no scarcity. If you really wanted to protect the secondary market, you could make them all text only, but tournament legal. Sort of official proxies.

Chronicles says "hi". That's exactly the bullshit that brought us the reserved list!

The only Way to negate the reserved lists effect is printing "better" cards to outclass the reserved ones. WotC just can't figure out how to do that with the original Duals without "cheating" on their own promise like they did with Reveberance/Fork which caused a shitstorm while testing waters.

[Mr. Ages]

Chronicles didn't go far enough. Also, how much are Chronicles cards worth these days? Are they affecting the value of the BB version you have? Doubt it.

I'm talking about Chronicles II: The Uncollectable. What if they printed Alpha and Beta, text only, no artwork, no flavor text. 100 times the amount of printed cards they would print for a base set. All commons.

There is a way to print cards without affecting prices of existing stock.

I guess you could argue that they are functional reprints, so the R/L comes into play, but I would argue that they are not reprints, as they would no longer be collectible.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Chronicles says "hi". That's exactly the bullshit that brought us the reserved list!

The only Way to negate the reserved lists effect is printing "better" cards to outclass the reserved ones. WotC just can't figure out how to do that with the original Duals without "cheating" on their own promise like they did with Reveberance/Fork which caused a shitstorm while testing waters.

That was a pretty dull shitstorm, I missed it entirely.

Although going back to white borders/nopictures is a silly idea, they should just man up and nuke the reserve list policy.

[socialite]

I'm really happy the reserve list exists. I wish people would stop the incessant moaning and get over the ruling made by WotC. This is a hobby it is expensive as are most hobbies. Involvement in the Magic the Gathering community is completely separate from an individuals overall quality of life. I have no interest in a care bear welfare community and neither should you.

[iamajellydonut]

they should just man up and nuke the reserve list policy.
The ultimate problem with "nuking the reserved list" is that what's sacred after Wizards breaks that? People have pissed and moaned over 6th rules, 8th borders, M10 rules, mythic (which I still bitch about), but we console ourselves with the fact that there remains a foundation. What happens when the reserved list goes down? Will people invest or feel safe with their collection? I know quite a few people, a fairly good portion of the players I know, who would probably sell and run if the reserved list were nuked.

Eventually I do think something needs to be done. There was an interesting article about Candelabra a while back and an estimate of the remaining copies. However, right now is not that time, nor do I think it should ever be a "nuke".

[PirateKing]

If Wizards came out in a statement that essentially read, "we care more about the health of our formats than dumb promises we made before we knew what we were doing, and as such, we are going to print the following cards in an upcoming non-standard legal set" I'm fairly sure nobody would seriously freak out. Special Edition style, there would be fireworks and people pulling down Palpatine statues.

But that's the standard. You have to make it a responsible, white collar business decision and present it as such. Type 2 you can get away with these Daily MTG articles written all colorfully and for children, but for Legacy where we are all comfortable with 2 grand for a deck, Wizards should write to us as such.

[Kjell]

I'm really happy the reserve list exists. I wish people would stop the incessant moaning and get over the ruling made by WotC. This is a hobby it is expensive as are most hobbies. Involvement in the Magic the Gathering community is completely separate from an individuals overall quality of life. I have no interest in a care bear welfare community and neither should you.

This is short-sighted as well as incorrect. The MTG community exists within society and is fully influenced by society so it certainly does not exist "completely separate from an individuals overall quality of life", especially not since certain formats are very expensive to be involved with. The more people there are who can afford to buy an okay card pool for a format the healthier that format will be. Someone who cares about legacy as a format will want it to be widely played because otherwise it collapses.


The ultimate problem with "nuking the reserved list" is that what's sacred after Wizards breaks that? People have pissed and moaned over 6th rules, 8th borders, M10 rules, mythic (which I still bitch about), but we console ourselves with the fact that there remains a foundation. What happens when the reserved list goes down? Will people invest or feel safe with their collection? I know quite a few people, a fairly good portion of the players I know, who would probably sell and run if the reserved list were nuked.

Eventually I do think something needs to be done. There was an interesting article about Candelabra a while back and an estimate of the remaining copies. However, right now is not that time, nor do I think it should ever be a "nuke".

They could have reprinted Force of Will or Wasteland at any point, yet they haven't. They're reprinting another money card they could have reprinted at any point, Tarmogoyf, but putting it at the highest rarity in a special set with far more limited supply than ordinary sets. These things should indicate that nobody is going to flood the market with dual lands and Moats or whatever.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The ultimate problem with "nuking the reserved list" is that what's sacred after Wizards breaks that? People have pissed and moaned over 6th rules, 8th borders, M10 rules, mythic (which I still bitch about), but we console ourselves with the fact that there remains a foundation. What happens when the reserved list goes down? Will people invest or feel safe with their collection? I know quite a few people, a fairly good portion of the players I know, who would probably sell and run if the reserved list were nuked.

Eventually I do think something needs to be done. There was an interesting article about Candelabra a while back and an estimate of the remaining copies. However, right now is not that time, nor do I think it should ever be a "nuke".

Why does anything have to be sacred?

Frankly if you buy Magic cards thinking they hold some sacred immutable value, then you're an idiot that deserves whatever's coming to you.

Wizards should be more concerned about the health of the game than the delusions of some participants therein.

[Lemnear]

Why does anything have to be sacred?

Frankly if you buy Magic cards thinking they hold some sacred immutable value, then you're an idiot that deserves whatever's coming to you.

Wizards should be more concerned about the health of the game than the delusions of some participants therein.

+1 ... nuff said

[iamajellydonut]

Why does anything have to be sacred?

Frankly if you buy Magic cards thinking they hold some sacred immutable value, then you're an idiot that deserves whatever's coming to you.

Wizards should be more concerned about the health of the game than the delusions of some participants therein.
A common Magic staple, and one that's cited often in this thread with good reason, are the Dual Lands. A playset of each can run you 3700-4000 for just Revised. Are you among the people who have sets of these? How would you feel seeing your collection drop from the value of a decent car to a fraction of the value? Hell, I'm just getting back in and already I'd be pretty upset if I saw my meager staples tank. Magic has been going extremely strong for twenty years and the price of staples continues to rise at a constant pace. More than a few people do consider this an investment, and they aren't half-wrong if you remove the "greedy geek" equation.

Seeing the end of the reserved list in any slight capacity would remove all bars from all cards and ultimately betray trust. Eventually the reserved list will have to come down. But it will have to be done tactfully and it will have to be for the legitimate reason of debilitating numbers of cards left in circulation rather than the current conundrum of people unwilling to pay money for a game that costs money.

[PirateKing]

How would you feel seeing your collection drop from the value

What is more important to you, the quantity of players, the quality of decks, and the overall health of the format, or the monetary value of your investment?
I try my best not to be a doomsayer, but the two are growing mutually exclusive. Vintage has offered a glimpse of days to come, and most of us here do not care for that fate.

I can understand the sentiment that you "invested" in this game, and now as a pseudo-shareholder, you feel compelled to guard your stock. But I worry that as that case may be, Magic is not the investment you seek. For the most of us, Magic is a game, and while the pieces do indeed cost money and are traded in very commodity like ways, do not be fooled, for it is a game, meant to be played first, foremost and if I had may way, exclusively.

The Reserve List is a stopgap measure, and for both the health and economy of the format, it will become the eventual ruin of it. Having your collection lose half its value but having a high volume making it easy to cash out is a whole lot better than having your collection double in value, only to have zero buyers.

[Lt. Quattro]

A common Magic staple, and one that's cited often in this thread with good reason, are the Dual Lands. A playset of each can run you 3700-4000 for just Revised. Are you among the people who have sets of these? How would you feel seeing your collection drop from the value of a decent car to a fraction of the value? Hell, I'm just getting back in and already I'd be pretty upset if I saw my meager staples tank. Magic has been going extremely strong for twenty years and the price of staples continues to rise at a constant pace. More than a few people do consider this an investment, and they aren't half-wrong if you remove the "greedy geek" equation.

Seeing the end of the reserved list in any slight capacity would remove all bars from all cards and ultimately betray trust. Eventually the reserved list will have to come down. But it will have to be done tactfully and it will have to be for the legitimate reason of debilitating numbers of cards left in circulation rather than the current conundrum of people unwilling to pay money for a game that costs money.

You do realize whats going to happen to your precious investments should the legacy format die right?

I have a set of of dual lands, and its people like you that are going to kill the monetary value and fun factor they provide me with.

[Barook]

A common Magic staple, and one that's cited often in this thread with good reason, are the Dual Lands. A playset of each can run you 3700-4000 for just Revised. Are you among the people who have sets of these? How would you feel seeing your collection drop from the value of a decent car to a fraction of the value? Hell, I'm just getting back in and already I'd be pretty upset if I saw my meager staples tank. Magic has been going extremely strong for twenty years and the price of staples continues to rise at a constant pace. More than a few people do consider this an investment, and they aren't half-wrong if you remove the "greedy geek" equation.

Seeing the end of the reserved list in any slight capacity would remove all bars from all cards and ultimately betray trust. Eventually the reserved list will have to come down. But it will have to be done tactfully and it will have to be for the legitimate reason of debilitating numbers of cards left in circulation rather than the current conundrum of people unwilling to pay money for a game that costs money.
I agree with the previous posters.

If the format/Magic dies, your so called "investment" is boned.

Reserve list staples shouldn't be treated as investment. All you're currently doing is buying into a bubble, and like all bubbles, it's going to crash eventually.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

A common Magic staple, and one that's cited often in this thread with good reason, are the Dual Lands. A playset of each can run you 3700-4000 for just Revised. Are you among the people who have sets of these? How would you feel seeing your collection drop from the value of a decent car to a fraction of the value? Hell, I'm just getting back in and already I'd be pretty upset if I saw my meager staples tank. Magic has been going extremely strong for twenty years and the price of staples continues to rise at a constant pace. More than a few people do consider this an investment, and they aren't half-wrong if you remove the "greedy geek" equation.

Seeing the end of the reserved list in any slight capacity would remove all bars from all cards and ultimately betray trust. Eventually the reserved list will have to come down. But it will have to be done tactfully and it will have to be for the legitimate reason of debilitating numbers of cards left in circulation rather than the current conundrum of people unwilling to pay money for a game that costs money.

I own a significant number of duals and fetches and other Legacy staples. Most of these were worth much less only a handful of years ago; them being much less expensive again would be something I could live with, especially if the reason was that they were more readily available, and not that the demand for the format had suddenly collapsed, which is a real possibility if the price bubble explodes because of dumbass speculators and people that actually think this is a stable long-term investment for some God-fucked reason.

[Mr.C]

I own a significant number of duals and fetches and other Legacy staples. Most of these were worth much less only a handful of years ago; them being much less expensive again would be something I could live with, especially if the reason was that they were more readily available, and not that the demand for the format had suddenly collapsed, which is a real possibility if the price bubble explodes because of dumbass speculators and people that actually think this is a stable long-term investment for some God-fucked reason.

Pretty much this.

When the reserved list debate was raging in 2010, I was sitting on a playset of every Legacy-legal card in English, including Arabian Nights, Legends and Portal 3. I would have *loved* for them to have abolished the list. Instead they didn't, and I felt that put an expiration date on Legacy, and I cashed out. I'd still be happily playing Legacy if they had decided to push it instead of Modern.

As it stands right now, I'm debating selling the rest of my cards. Instead of a couple thousand of dollars per year from me, in the form of sealed product and drafts, Wizards is getting $0.

Edit: I'm also pretty involved in the tuning and modding scene of a large German brand of cars. This debate is like people bitching and moaning about owners buying replicas of hard to find, old parts and accessories that were made over a decade ago, or sometimes longer, because they have the original ones. That almost does not happen; in my case, I look for the originals as much as I can, but some things are pretty much unobtainium, so to speak. I don't care that one of my buddies has a set of AC Schnitzer rims that are identical to mine, except that his are made in China and mine are made in Germany. Nor does anyone else that I've spoken to so far; we are just happy that he is one more person to enjoy our hobby. Why can't it be the same for Magic? Why do people want to protect their 'investment' in little pieces of cardboard so much? The abundance of, say, replica body kits do not in any way diminish the value of the originals; in many cases, by making them available for a wider audience to acquire, interest in the original rises.

I just find this position of "I made the investment, so if you don't/can't, go play Standard or Modern" extremely petty, and what will eventually kill Legacy. Sad, really.

[Barook]

we are just happy that he is one more person to enjoy our hobby. Why can't it be the same for Magic? Why do people want to protect their 'investment' in little pieces of cardboard so much?
It's only the asshats who treat their cards as an investment instead of hobby.

There are more than enough people who say "I'm fine as long as people are playing".

[Mr.C]

It's only the asshats who treat their cards as an investment instead of hobby.

There are more than enough people who say "I'm fine as long as people are playing".

But it's a mentality that's so much more prevalent in Magic than in cars, and modding cars ain't cheap. I haven't heard anyone yet with original bodykits, for example, complain about others having replicas. I've seen people even send in original, no-longer-available, pieces to replica manufacturers to duplicate and make it available to the community at large. It's a whole different mentality, and we're talking people who spend six figures on a hobby. And they do it fully conscious that they'll never see that money again.

The problem, as always, is people viewing cards as some sort of investment that must be protected, versus what they really are: cards that are part of a game for persons 13 years or older.

[Barook]

But it's a mentality that's so much more prevalent in Magic than in cars, and modding cars ain't cheap. I haven't heard anyone yet with original bodykits, for example, complain about others having replicas. I've seen people even send in original, no-longer-available, pieces to replica manufacturers to duplicate and make it available to the community at large. It's a whole different mentality, and we're talking people who spend six figures on a hobby. And they do it fully conscious that they'll never see that money again.

The problem, as always, is people viewing cards as some sort of investment that must be protected, versus what they really are: cards that are part of a game for persons 13 years or older.
If people could, they sure would make new print runs of old, expensive cards. Except Hasbro's lawyers wouldn't like that.

[Mr.C]

If people could, they sure would make new print runs of old, expensive cards. Except Hasbro's lawyers wouldn't like that.

Sure, but the whole point of the matter is that the people who own the original thing don't care if there are "replicas", or reprints if you want to call them that.

[KntrellCL]

more replicas, less value... so why paying thousands of dolar for black lotus and then gets reprint?

[Mr.C]

more replicas, less value... so why paying thousands of dolar for black lotus and then gets reprint?

Why? My wheels are still the real deal. It's pimper, so to speak. Why would I want a cheap knock-off if I can afford the real one? My wheels aren't being made any more. They can flood the market with replicas, for all I care (and people have... This design is widely available, but real ones get snap bought at high prices).

Some people are satisfied with having a fake, a reprint, so to speak. For others, having something rare and difficult to acquire is not only 'better', but more satisfying. Why do people pay thousands of dollars for Summer rares, for example? Just buy a Revised Underground Sea, by your reasoning.

[lordofthepit]

Why? My wheels are still the real deal. It's pimper, so to speak. Why would I want a cheap knock-off if I can afford the real one? My wheels aren't being made any more. They can flood the market with replicas, for all I care (and people have... This design is widely available, but real ones get snap bought at high prices).

Some people are satisfied with having a fake, a reprint, so to speak. For others, having something rare and difficult to acquire is not only 'better', but more satisfying. Why do people pay thousands of dollars for Summer rares, for example? Just buy a Revised Underground Sea, by your reasoning.

You may not care about the value of your cards. There are thousands who do though. And of those thousands, many of them are probably willing to sacrifice some value to make the format more accessible for others, but some do not.

[Mr.C]

You may not care about the value of your cards. There are thousands who do though. And of those thousands, many of them are probably willing to sacrifice some value to make the format more accessible for others, but some do not.

So where do you draw the line? Satisfy the whiners that want to keep their investment or satisfy the whiners who want cheaper cards? Who's right and who's wrong?

This will be not the death of Legacy, but what will cause the spiral into obscurity. Just like Vintage before it.

[Zombie]

I think the investment mentality is hilarious. I own a bunch of expensive cards. Some I got cheap, some I got for lots of money. The common factor here is that I bought them for their utility - to play the game, that is - not with any intent to sell. The only value they have for me is the amount of games against others I can use them for. Reprints would decrease the monetary value substantially, yes. The hell do I care, though, because the actual utility of my abominably expensive cardboard just skyrocketed instead of dwindling by the day? I might be able to finish a couple decks way more easily and get to actually playing? What use is a 2k Lotus or something if people are only willing to pay 600 for it? Jack. What use is a 600 Lotus if I can go ask someone at an FLGS if they're up for a game of Vintage, and they're relatively likely to answer yes instead of no? A lot.

Novel, ain't it?

[baghdadbob]

I own a significant number of duals and fetches and other Legacy staples. Most of these were worth much less only a handful of years ago; them being much less expensive again would be something I could live with, especially if the reason was that they were more readily available, and not that the demand for the format had suddenly collapsed, which is a real possibility if the price bubble explodes because of dumbass speculators and people that actually think this is a stable long-term investment for some God-fucked reason.

^This

[socialite]

This investment collector notion is hilarious. As someone with a high value collection, it isn't about a drop in the value of my collection. Its about putting in the fucking work. I've spent a significant amount of time, effort, and sacrifice to get where I am. Why should others have everything handed to them on a silver platter? If you are as emotionally invested in participating in this game, as so many of you claim to be, put in the work.

[lordofthepit]

So where do you draw the line? Satisfy the whiners that want to keep their investment or satisfy the whiners who want cheaper cards? Who's right and who's wrong?

This will be not the death of Legacy, but what will cause the spiral into obscurity. Just like Vintage before it.

Everyone has a different line.

I personally wouldn't mind if dual lands and other staples got released as judge promos, or in special sets such as From the Vaults, Commander's Arsenal, or a future Legacy Masters (with a small print run). This would require getting rid of the Reserved List. It would probably cost me on the order of a thousand dollars in the short term, but it will allow more players to join. That's a sacrifice that I'm willing to make. I'd like to dial things back to when dual lands were $20-50 and Forces were $25.

On the other hand, I do not want to see dual lands printed as rares in core sets M14 through M18. Those Revised Underground Seas would probably fetch $10 instead of $150 if you could get the black bordered core set versions for $5. There are probably an outspoken few Legacy players who would be okay with this because "they never plan on selling their cards anyway". However, there are other players like me who never saw our collections as investment, but still cared (at least to a small extent) about its long-term value: there was no way in hell I would have paid $20 for a piece of cardboard (let alone three figures), if there were a significant risk that the value of the card would completely plummet in a few years.

Wizards has draw the line all the way at "no reprints". I'd like them do away with the Reserved List too, but I hope they never adopt the notion that cards are inherently worthless and that it's fair game to flood the market. The notion that "it's just a game, and these are pieces of cardboard" belies the fact that it's a trading card game and the secondary market and individual card values are essential to the long-term health of the format even among those who don't purely view it as a stock market.

Edit: The hypothetical question often posed to players (as far as I've seen since 2002 Vintage to current Legacy) is "would you rather devalue your collection or allow more players to join"? When posed as a tradeoff like that, it certainly depends on the extent to which each effect takes place. I wouldn't want to lose thousands of dollars in card value just to let two players join, for instance, but I'd gladly do that if several thousand could. However, it's worth noting that card values for Eternal staples have never been higher, while at the same time, Legacy has never been more popular or well-supported, so that hypothetical question is a bit disingenuous. There may come a time in the future when the question becomes more realistic, and I expect if that time ever comes, even those who are currently more supportive of the Reserved List will start to change their opinion.

[Lord Seth]

This investment collector notion is hilarious. As someone with a high value collection, it isn't about a drop in the value of my collection. Its about putting in the fucking work. I've spent a significant amount of time, effort, and sacrifice to get where I am. Why should others have everything handed to them on a silver platter? If you are as emotionally invested in participating in this game, as so many of you claim to be, put in the work.This sounds like one of those stereotyped old people who complain about how kids shouldn't be using calculators because back in their day, they had to put in extra work to use slide rulers. Or how people should wash and dry their clothes by hand rather than using a washer/dryer machine, because that's what they had to do when they were younger.

[Mr.C]

This investment collector notion is hilarious. As someone with a high value collection, it isn't about a drop in the value of my collection. Its about putting in the fucking work. I've spent a significant amount of time, effort, and sacrifice to get where I am. Why should others have everything handed to them on a silver platter? If you are as emotionally invested in participating in this game, as so many of you claim to be, put in the work.

Easy for you to say. Unfortunately, you (and I to an extent, although I have a hunch you make more than me :p) are the minority. Teenagers and college students and, heck, recent graduates can't really afford $100+ for a ton of staples to play the format. So you have to bring it down to something realistic, somehow.

I'd be ecstatic if prices went down to 2007-2008 levels.

[socialite]

You're all entitled to your opinion. If it were putting food on the table or a roof over the head of your family, I would agree that everyone deserves a fair shake. If you desire something non essential you need to learn to work for it.

I don't make that much money Mr. C. In fact I make less than six figures a year.

[PirateKing]

Ertai's Familiar

What are the limits of your standings regarding price maintenance? Is it that you have all the magic cards you will ever need, so if the prices rise by a factor of 10 in time, you stand to only gain? Do you foresee there being a point where you could consider the course as current being unsustainable?

I do agree that Legacy should not be cheap, there should be a genuine barrier to keep casuals and noobs those unprepared from getting hurt. I want to avoid having some kid showing up with their snowflake deck only to have it crushed by the whole field, and then decide that Magic isn't for them. A high price barrier is key to portraying the fact that Legacy is fast and unforgiving, and that are decks are highly tuned race cars that cost at least somewhat a significant amount of money.

But the way things are now just seem like flavor text to any Wish come to life. By not wanting lands at $10 each means I get them at $100 each.

[Higgs]

Hi guys,

First time poster here. I tend to agree with Ertai's Familiar and I don't think Lord Seth's example is relevant. I got into Legacy a few years back and before starting to build my collection I did my fair share of research, play testing, forum lurking and price hunting. I figured what was required to have a single deck, a single tier deck or a card pool for a range of decks. I made my plan and started building my collection, buying and trading into things and have paid a lot of attention to this game (both the metagame, printings/bannings, season cycles etc. and the financial ups and downs) to build up the collection I have today. I didn't do much speculation like buying 100 Zendikar fethces to make profit a year down the road (because I didn't have the funds) but I tried to foresee the trends and buy the things at the right time, not sell things unless I had to... I bought some sutff at the wrong time or sold others but for some things I was right on time and had to prioritize my real life expenditures to be able to make that purchase when the prices were low. Sometimes I postponed my real life purchases a month to be able to catch a good deal which could shoot up in a couple weeks. Now I have the majority of the staples for Tier 1 blue decks and can switch decks around with much less effort but I did put in the work.

Now I do realize that the prices are really high and some people will just be out of luck coming into the game this late. Someone between 16-20 who started this game last year and getting into Legacy this year may not be able afford a decent Legacy deck for years as long as the Reserve list is in place. But, there are quite a lot of players who have been playing this game for some years, all the while complaining about the prices and letting the opportunities pass them by. I've put in the work and know that it can be done. It's getting harder and harder, but if you put in the work you still can. I'm not against minor reprints like the Karakas judge foil which didn't do a single thing to the price of the original, but I don't think it's fair to the players who did the work to build up their collection, made sacrifices, planned their real life expenditures and prioritized this hobby over other things to abolish the reserve list completely.

I'm not worried about the value of my collection because I don't intend to sell it. I just agree with Ertai's Familiar that this is a CCG and Wizards should take care with players (yes not only the collectors) who've put in time and effort to build their collections while making newer players happy.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

more replicas, less value... so why paying thousands of dolar for black lotus and then gets reprint?

Magic cards are not bonds. If you're buying a card because of what you think you can sell it for later and not because of what it's worth to you, then fuck you, I hope you get hosed.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Hi guys,

First time poster here. I tend to agree with Ertai's Familiar and I don't think Lord Seth's example is relevant. I got into Legacy a few years back and before starting to build my collection I did my fair share of research, play testing, forum lurking and price hunting. I figured what was required to have a single deck, a single tier deck or a card pool for a range of decks. I made my plan and started building my collection, buying and trading into things and have paid a lot of attention to this game (both the metagame, printings/bannings, season cycles etc. and the financial ups and downs) to build up the collection I have today. I didn't do much speculation like buying 100 Zendikar fethces to make profit a year down the road (because I didn't have the funds) but I tried to foresee the trends and buy the things at the right time, not sell things unless I had to... I bought some sutff at the wrong time or sold others but for some things I was right on time and had to prioritize my real life expenditures to be able to make that purchase when the prices were low. Sometimes I postponed my real life purchases a month to be able to catch a good deal which could shoot up in a couple weeks. Now I have the majority of the staples for Tier 1 blue decks and can switch decks around with much less effort but I did put in the work.

Now I do realize that the prices are really high and some people will just be out of luck coming into the game this late. Someone between 16-20 who started this game last year and getting into Legacy this year may not be able afford a decent Legacy deck for years as long as the Reserve list is in place. But, there are quite a lot of players who have been playing this game for some years, all the while complaining about the prices and letting the opportunities pass them by. I've put in the work and know that it can be done. It's getting harder and harder, but if you put in the work you still can. I'm not against minor reprints like the Karakas judge foil which didn't do a single thing to the price of the original, but I don't think it's fair to the players who did the work to build up their collection, made sacrifices, planned their real life expenditures and prioritized this hobby over other things to abolish the reserve list completely.

I'm not worried about the value of my collection because I don't intend to sell it. I just agree with Ertai's Familiar that this is a CCG and Wizards should take care with players (yes not only the collectors) who've put in time and effort to build their collections while making newer players happy.


Can you name me a parallel to anything else in any aspect of life or the economy where anyone, ever says, "I don't want you to create later versions of things because it will ruin my enjoyment of the version I have."

I mean like this is not how it works in collectible cards for like, baseball cards. There are different versions of cards and people will pay more for a Mickey Mantle from 1950whatever than one in 2010, but no one says you have to stop making new baseball cards.

Because it strikes me as the most asinine, inane, insane and childish complaint ever conceived of.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

This investment collector notion is hilarious. As someone with a high value collection, it isn't about a drop in the value of my collection. Its about putting in the fucking work. I've spent a significant amount of time, effort, and sacrifice to get where I am. Why should others have everything handed to them on a silver platter? If you are as emotionally invested in participating in this game, as so many of you claim to be, put in the work.

Because the purpose of a game is to have fun and not to prove how much of your bankroll you're willing to sacrifice.

And because maintaining the value of older cards doesn't help Wizards at all.


Really, it's an absurd and laughable combination, preaching to newer players about personal responsibility while demanding that Wizards forgo its own best interests.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Why? My wheels are still the real deal. It's pimper, so to speak. Why would I want a cheap knock-off if I can afford the real one? My wheels aren't being made any more. They can flood the market with replicas, for all I care (and people have... This design is widely available, but real ones get snap bought at high prices).

Some people are satisfied with having a fake, a reprint, so to speak. For others, having something rare and difficult to acquire is not only 'better', but more satisfying. Why do people pay thousands of dollars for Summer rares, for example? Just buy a Revised Underground Sea, by your reasoning.

This point needs to be emphasized and re-emphasized.

The point of having a collectible isn't that you have the only edition of something and other editions hurt you somehow as a collector.

Someone that has a first printing of Tale of Two Cities doesn't shake with rage at the existence of Penguin reprints.

As far as I know it's only in Magic cards where there's this god-fuckedly stupid concept that having an M14 Candelabra of Tawnos would be some massive affront to everyone that owns an Antiquities Candelabra, and that they're entitled to the market value of that card being preserved based upon simple scarcity and demand, and not around the collectible aspects of the card, as that's understood in every other hobby.

And it's not that Magic players don't grasp this concept at its fundamentals, because they pay more for black borders and originals and misprints etc..

So I have no idea where this idea comes from.

[xfxf]

MtG is a game but Wizards comes out and says "a promise is a promise", so instead of saying "f. this bs I'll play PC games and won't gamble with my money on a game" some us see that it's either spend now or spend much more later and buy into their product. MtG is a game but when some levels of it are being played at $2000 not everything about it is a game. I'm not saying they shouldn't reprint anything (ex Karakas, quite fine) but they should be careful how they juggle this. Quite literally if after holding onto this promise for so long if they abolish it like it's nothing, that will read "screw you and your dedication to the game, who told you to play this for 10 frigging years". How do you like that signal as a long time player?

I want to see reserve list abolished but not in the sense of being nuked. I think they should find a smarter way of doing things.

[Zombie]

I'd abolish it but protect appearance. No old-frame reprints of the kind they did with Crucible. Allows access to cards, preserves clear authenticity factor.

[Higgs]

One thing I've thought of before is having MTGO tournaments (say big Modern events) with physical, new frame, new art reprints of dual lands as the prize reward. They can control the distribution of the reprints easily, use this as a bridge between paper players and their online platform, give newer players a way to acquire older cards by playing newer formats while also making players put in the work to acquire these cards. If you are a player who can't access these cards just play the game and win. This would be a much nicer way of handing people the cards than on a silver platter (a.k.a in boosters). Most people wouldn't want to sell these versions because they'd be like trophies, and the ones that start to get circulated in the market would be quite limited. This wouldn't crash the value of our cards but maybe put a cap on their increase.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

MtG is a game but Wizards comes out and says "a promise is a promise", so instead of saying "f. this bs I'll play PC games and won't gamble with my money on a game" some us see that it's either spend now or spend much more later and buy into their product. MtG is a game but when some levels of it are being played at $2000 not everything about it is a game. I'm not saying they shouldn't reprint anything (ex Karakas, quite fine) but they should be careful how they juggle this. Quite literally if after holding onto this promise for so long if they abolish it like it's nothing, that will read "screw you and your dedication to the game, who told you to play this for 10 frigging years". How do you like that signal as a long time player?

I want to see reserve list abolished but not in the sense of being nuked. I think they should find a smarter way of doing things.

So in other words, you bought in recently and think you're entitled to have that decision validated financially, even at the expense of Wizards' own profit margins and the health of the game overall.

Because news flash, plenty of people who've been playing and collecting a long time are against the reserved list, including Starcity.

[xfxf]

Yup, so am I and I do think that I'm entitled to my opinion just like everyone else.

I had my FoWs and Wastelands and Intuitions and a bunch of other staples since they were under $10 back in the day and I bought quite a number of staples recently so I'm not sure what your assumptions based on my history as a player has anything to do with anything. I always defended reprints and my vote was for the abolishing of the Reserved list. I'm saying that they can't just say fuck it and start raping the value of all these cards, they have to be smart about it because based on their so called promise an entire eco-system of collectibles market has been established over they years and around the globe. I don't think you are reading the discussion with an objective mind.

I'm still hoping that the MM will be an example of reprinting money cards without crashing their value.

[Lt. Quattro]

Hi guys,

First time poster here. I tend to agree with Ertai's Familiar and I don't think Lord Seth's example is relevant. I got into Legacy a few years back and before starting to build my collection I did my fair share of research, play testing, forum lurking and price hunting. I figured what was required to have a single deck, a single tier deck or a card pool for a range of decks. I made my plan and started building my collection, buying and trading into things and have paid a lot of attention to this game (both the metagame, printings/bannings, season cycles etc. and the financial ups and downs) to build up the collection I have today. I didn't do much speculation like buying 100 Zendikar fethces to make profit a year down the road (because I didn't have the funds) but I tried to foresee the trends and buy the things at the right time, not sell things unless I had to... I bought some sutff at the wrong time or sold others but for some things I was right on time and had to prioritize my real life expenditures to be able to make that purchase when the prices were low. Sometimes I postponed my real life purchases a month to be able to catch a good deal which could shoot up in a couple weeks. Now I have the majority of the staples for Tier 1 blue decks and can switch decks around with much less effort but I did put in the work.

Now I do realize that the prices are really high and some people will just be out of luck coming into the game this late. Someone between 16-20 who started this game last year and getting into Legacy this year may not be able afford a decent Legacy deck for years as long as the Reserve list is in place. But, there are quite a lot of players who have been playing this game for some years, all the while complaining about the prices and letting the opportunities pass them by. I've put in the work and know that it can be done. It's getting harder and harder, but if you put in the work you still can. I'm not against minor reprints like the Karakas judge foil which didn't do a single thing to the price of the original, but I don't think it's fair to the players who did the work to build up their collection, made sacrifices, planned their real life expenditures and prioritized this hobby over other things to abolish the reserve list completely.

I'm not worried about the value of my collection because I don't intend to sell it. I just agree with Ertai's Familiar that this is a CCG and Wizards should take care with players (yes not only the collectors) who've put in time and effort to build their collections while making newer players happy.

So you dropped a large chunk of change on your cards and now you don't want anyone to join your elite club unless they pay a similar price?

Want to know whats not fair to the players who love this format and who did the work to build up their collection, made sacrifices, planned their real life expenditures and prioritized this hobby over other things? Not having anyone to play with.

Wizards should take care of the players by increasing supply so that we can have local tournaments and pro tours.

There are plenty of old cards that would make EDH and casual players happy, and we all know how much new players love cracking packs.

[Higgs]

Players who already have the cards and who already are playing the format aren't going anywhere, and new players are still getting into the format. I just don't understand why people should expect things to be given them for free.

Edit: I also posted my take on a proposed middle ground solution but I guess it didn't look appealing because it involved some effort from the players wanting to play the game.

[rooneg]

Players who already have the cards and who already are playing the format aren't going anywhere, and new players are still getting into the format. I just don't understand why people should expect things to be given them for free.

That's the thing, people who have the cards and are currently playing the format DO go somewhere. Life happens, people get married, get a new job, have a kid, whatever, and then don't have the time for it that they previously had. Sometimes they cash out and their cards go to someone who will use them but a lot of the time they just put the cards down for a while. I mean who wants to have to rebuy all those dual lands when you decide you want back in? The price will be even higher then (assuming no collapse of the bubble), so if you don't absolutely need the money you just stick the binders on a shelf and the cards are out of circulation until you decide to play again. This reduces both the active players and the available card pool for new players looking to buy in. That's a problem.

[Kjell]

Why should people have to work to simply acquire the minimum essentials to even play the format, IE an actual competitive deck? This is a game. The only effort ever needed for a tournament should be making deck lists and improving your play.

[CorwinB]

Everyone has a different line.

I personally wouldn't mind if dual lands and other staples got released as judge promos, or in special sets such as From the Vaults, Commander's Arsenal, or a future Legacy Masters (with a small print run). This would require getting rid of the Reserved List. It would probably cost me on the order of a thousand dollars in the short term, but it will allow more players to join. That's a sacrifice that I'm willing to make. I'd like to dial things back to when dual lands were $20-50 and Forces were $25.

On the other hand, I do not want to see dual lands printed as rares in core sets M14 through M18. Those Revised Underground Seas would probably fetch $10 instead of $150 if you could get the black bordered core set versions for $5. There are probably an outspoken few Legacy players who would be okay with this because "they never plan on selling their cards anyway". However, there are other players like me who never saw our collections as investment, but still cared (at least to a small extent) about its long-term value: there was no way in hell I would have paid $20 for a piece of cardboard (let alone three figures), if there were a significant risk that the value of the card would completely plummet in a few years.

Wizards has draw the line all the way at "no reprints". I'd like them do away with the Reserved List too, but I hope they never adopt the notion that cards are inherently worthless and that it's fair game to flood the market. The notion that "it's just a game, and these are pieces of cardboard" belies the fact that it's a trading card game and the secondary market and individual card values are essential to the long-term health of the format even among those who don't purely view it as a stock market.

That's pretty much where I sit too, and considering the (way over the top, IMHO) caution they are taking with Modern Masters, I suspect they could probably remove the RL and process reprints with enough care that existing collections wouldn't tank overnight (even including White Bordered Revised duals). In fact, I would prefer such a solution to a patchwork of workaround nearly-functional reprints (Snow Duals and the like).

[bruizar]

trust me, the slightest infringement of the reserved list is going to have gigantic ripple effects. Without confidence/trust, markets plummet and magic is no different.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

trust me, the slightest infringement of the reserved list is going to have gigantic ripple effects. Without confidence/trust, markets plummet and magic is no different.

The problem is I don't trust you nor see any reason to think this isn't hysteric ignorant nonsense.

Without confidence speculative markets crumble; I have no doubt that prices on a number of older cards that are primarily driven by speculation would take a hit if Wizards announced an end to the reserved list policy.

But why should Wizards care about that, or anyone else for that matter? The thing about gambling on prices is that it's gambling. This whole "Why should people be given something for free" line of talk with very somber, serious faces and grave nodding of head is pretty hilarious given who's actually asking for a handout here. Hint: it's not the people saying that Wizards should reprint their own product to their own profit.

[PirateKing]

As an aside: anybody know how much Wizards is worth? Fantasizing about being a billionaire and just buying it from Hasboro and guiding it back to glory. Just wondering how much your buying price would have to be to get them interested.

[bruizar]

Probably a lot less than the price of all cards in the secondary market.

[Humphrey]

As an aside: anybody know how much Wizards is worth? Fantasizing about being a billionaire and just buying it from Hasboro and guiding it back to glory. Just wondering how much your buying price would have to be to get them interested.

Make a pledge. Every MTG Player puts 50$ on it, and then we buy WotC

[socialite]

The problem is I don't trust you nor see any reason to think this isn't hysteric ignorant nonsense.

Without confidence speculative markets crumble; I have no doubt that prices on a number of older cards that are primarily driven by speculation would take a hit if Wizards announced an end to the reserved list policy.

But why should Wizards care about that, or anyone else for that matter? The thing about gambling on prices is that it's gambling. This whole "Why should people be given something for free" line of talk with very somber, serious faces and grave nodding of head is pretty hilarious given who's actually asking for a handout here. Hint: it's not the people saying that Wizards should reprint their own product to their own profit.

If it was in their best interest to abolish the reserve list, without long term repercussions, they would have done so.

A handout is exactly what you are asking for.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

If it was in their best interest to abolish the reserve list, without long term repercussions, they would have done so.

Yes, no one ever does anything ever save that it is in their own best interests, that's a good and certainly not a morbidly stupid point you just made.


A handout is exactly what you are asking for.

Yes, suggesting that Wizards care for their own bottom line and the health of the format is certainly sponging for reasons I'm sure you'll make clear, because it's not like you're just talking out of your ass or anything like that.

[socialite]

OK Jack. You're one hundred percent correct and never wrong so I'll just cease my attempt at having a civil discussion with you. For what it's worth I always assumed businesses were out to make money, my assumption that Hasbro operated under this theory is clearly absurd.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I know, let's play a fun game of "Try to spot the fallacy"!

I assume people are trying to live long, happy lives, therefore I assume people never make decisions that are contrary to this. Because smoking is very unhealthy I therefore assume no one smokes. Clearly I have proven that no one smokes and will now scoff at anyone who suggests that smokers exist.

Scoff scoff.

[Richard Cheese]

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/250x250/37856753.jpg

[Kjell]

Hasbro usually does what will bring them the most money. This can be an example of them making a mistake or just having run some calculations and found that it would have an uncertain effect on the new format they're making a big deal out of instead.


trust me, the slightest infringement of the reserved list is going to have gigantic ripple effects. Without confidence/trust, markets plummet and magic is no different.

Tarmogoyf and Dark Confidant are both being reprinted for MM, a set with less availability than usual, for the first time. They are being printed at a higher rarity (the highest rarity) with no justification based on rules complexity, actual flavour or limited playability but only as a way to decrease the amount available and thus the impact they would have on the already established price. Force of Will and Wasteland both remain un-reprinted despite there being nothing that stands in the way of WotC doing that in the same way they are doing what they can to make as few copies of Goyf and Bob available without messing with new rarities. There is no reason to believe that WotC will flood the market with anything.

[PirateKing]

Now now, to be fair, none of us have any idea why Hasboro did what they did, or to what extent their shadowy hands pull the strings of Magic.

Even to suggest that the decision was make by a cognizance person requires some amount of faith that it wasn't one of four supercomputers orbiting the Earth. The whole discussion is steeped in supposition, which is why it can sustain itself indefinitely.

It only gets boring when there is nobody to represent the dissenting opinion, which is hard enough when they represent an established ~10%

[Aggro_zombies]

How would I feel if Wizards got rid of the Reserved List? I wouldn't care, since I would have recently used my lottery winnings to buy a private island in the South Pacific, from which I would quietly rule the world.

[Lord Seth]

Tarmogoyf and Dark Confidant are both being reprinted for MM, a set with less availability than usual, for the first time. They are being printed at a higher rarity (the highest rarity) with no justification based on rules complexity, actual flavour or limited playability but only as a way to decrease the amount available and thus the impact they would have on the already established price.Actually, I'd say those things you just mentioned are good justifications for them to be mythic rares.

Though if they make Thoughtseize a mythic, that would be for no other reason than to try to protect its price.

[lordofthepit]

Actually, I'd say those things you just mentioned are good justifications for them to be mythic rares.

Though if they make Thoughtseize a mythic, that would be for no other reason than to try to protect its price.

He's saying those justifications don't apply in these cases.

[Lord Seth]

He's saying those justifications don't apply in these cases.And I'm saying I think they do.

Side note:
So you dropped a large chunk of change on your cards and now you don't want anyone to join your elite club unless they pay a similar price?Actually, it's a bit worse than that.

The people who defend the Reserved List seem to be those who "bought in" to the format when it was cheaper. Higgs, for example, stated he did it several years ago. So it's not saying others have to pay a similar price. It's saying that others have to pay a higher price. Makes me wonder if people who defend the Reserved List on the grounds that they paid such and such for their cards would be willing to pay a yearly upkeep for how much the cards have increased in price? Because, I mean, they're asking everyone else to do it.

[mini1337s]

http://i.imgur.com/GiCV79V.png

In all seriousness, rather then focusing on one extreme of the other, couldn't Wizards agree to revise the reserved list? Rather than abolishing it completely, they could revise it to:

ABU:
Ancestral Recall
Black Lotus
Mox Emerald
Mox Jet
Mox Pearl
Mox Ruby
Mox Sapphire
Time Walk
Time Vault
Timetwister

ARB:
Bazaar of Baghdad
Library of Alexandria

ANT:
Mishra's Workshop

or something of that nature? Most of the iconic, non-legacy playable cards that hold extreme value would be unaffected.

I would assume out of all the cards AVAILABLE to be reprinted, these would be the controversial ones:

10 Dual Lands
The Abyss
Chains of Mephistopheles
Moat
Nether Void
The Tabernacle at Pendrall Vale
Gaea's Cradle, other $50+ cards from 95-99

and mostly because of their current price and the fact that they can be played in Legacy.

As long as Wizards released cards slowly, IE, we might see 1-2 of these heavy hitters in the run of a year (maybe an exception made for duals through a commander product), and the market wouldn't collapse. I'm sure there would be some initial hits of value, even before anything was announced to actually be reprinted, but with the potential for cheaper alternatives, more people would invest in legacy, values would rise, yadda yadda yadda. It would also give Wizards some flexibility in changing up modern from time to time

[Aggro_zombies]

He's saying those justifications don't apply in these cases.
Tarmogoyf is actually pretty bad in Limited. In many cases, he's worse than Elvish Warrior until later in the game, and then he's just a midsize vanilla dude.

[Lord Seth]

Tarmogoyf is actually pretty bad in Limited. In many cases, he's worse than Elvish Warrior until later in the game, and then he's just a midsize vanilla dude.I was actually referring more to complexity. (and uniqueness)

The fact is, there is no other card in the game I can think of that really does what Tarmogoyf does. Yes, there are other Lhurgoyf cards, but nothing that counts the types of cards or anything similar (everything else is just "number of <insert card type here>" rather than number of types). It's easier to just count the number of creatures in graveyards than it is to work out which number of types are represented. No other card in the game requires you to keep track of the things Tarmogoyf requires you to keep track of. It's a quite unique card, and to be honest I wouldn't have been surprised if it had been a mythic rare had said rarity existed back then (thankfully, it didn't).

[Kjell]

So okay, goyf counts card types in graveyards. That isn't very complicated. All goyf cards cares about one card type and plenty of other creatures care about card types as well. Tarmogoyf is just a slight tweak to that formula. It deserves to be a rare but not more than that.


Actually, I'd say those things you just mentioned are good justifications for them to be mythic rares.

Though if they make Thoughtseize a mythic, that would be for no other reason than to try to protect its price.

Neither goyf nor bob are crazy in limited. They're semi-playable to playable at best. Neither of them have huge impact or the kind of "woah!" flavour you expect out of a mythic. Progenitus, for example, is mythic in both mechanics and flavour. Lotus Cobra isn't super amazing in limited and only barely manages to be a mythic due to its reference to Black Lotus. Goyf and Bob don't have that sort of thing going for them. They're only good in constructed. They're amazing in the right format, sure, but so is Snapcaster and that certainly isn't mythic-worthy.

There are only two reasons for these two cards being mythic and that is either to sell more packs (as if this set could do anything but sell out rapidly) and/or to keep the secondary market prices from decreasing too much.

[Lord Seth]

So okay, goyf counts card types in graveyards. That isn't very complicated. All goyf cards cares about one card type and plenty of other creatures care about card types as well.You say plenty of other creatures care about card types as well. Name one other card that cares about card types in the same way as Tarmogoyf.


Tarmogoyf is just a slight tweak to that formula.No, it's a bit more than that. It's certainly more complex, both in terms of using (figuring out the number of different types tends to be trickier than just counting up a particular type) and in deck construction. Something like Magnivore is just "hey, stick me in a deck with a lot of Sorceries." Tarmogoyf is, if you ask me, quite a bit more complicated to build around. It's not a singular type of card you're trying to build around, it's to have as many varied types as reasonably possible. There's really nothing else in the game I can think of that has that kind of effect.


Neither goyf nor bob are crazy in limited. They're semi-playable to playable at best. Neither of them have huge impact or the kind of "woah!" flavour you expect out of a mythic. Progenitus, for example, is mythic in both mechanics and flavour. Lotus Cobra isn't super amazing in limited and only barely manages to be a mythic due to its reference to Black Lotus. Goyf and Bob don't have that sort of thing going for them. They're only good in constructed. They're amazing in the right format, sure, but so is Snapcaster and that certainly isn't mythic-worthy.Dark Confidant's ability seems reasonably mythic to me, personally, though admittedly that is a bit of a subjective matter. In terms of actual cards, they seem a bit wishy-washy about it, putting Dark Tutelage at Rare and Duskmantle Seer at Mythic. I think it's one of those cards that could really go either way reasonably.

[joemauer]

A special set like Modern Masters shouldn't even have Mythic Rares.

The reserved list sucks.
You know what else sucks?
Waiting 15 years for WotC to reprint Force of Will and Wasteland outside of a Judge promo. As soon as these reprints come then and only then will I be convinced that WotC cares at all about the Legacy community. In the mean time, I wouldn't stay up all night wondering when WotC will abolish the reserve list just because Legacy players are so swell.

[Kjell]

There's really nothing else in the game I can think of that has that kind of effect.

It isn't a mindblowing concept. It's a fairly simple evolution of the lhurgoyf effect. Mythics overwhelmingly have a feel to them that makes people perk up and take a closer look out of awe. Dictating who can win or lose, gaining tremendous amounts of life, becoming absolutely enormous Tarmogoyf is much too subtle to be a good mythic. Contrast it with Lord of Extinction, which just straight up counts all cards in every graveyard and becomes enormous due to it.


Dark Confidant's ability seems reasonably mythic to me, personally, though admittedly that is a bit of a subjective matter. In terms of actual cards, they seem a bit wishy-washy about it, putting Dark Tutelage at Rare and Duskmantle Seer at Mythic. I think it's one of those cards that could really go either way reasonably.

Dark Confidant's ability is only rare-worthy, as evidenced by Dark Tutelage which does the same thing only as an enchantment. Duskmantle Seer triggers for all players and can win just like that through its own ability by automatically and for no mana causing opponents to lose life. It wouldn't surprise me if its effects on limited had something to do with it as well.

[bruizar]

Confidant and Tarmogoyf are certainly not mythic worthy. The only reason is to sell more packs and to protect collectors. If you think that's not the case, you must either be blind or think that wotc is a charity.

[TsumiBand]

Confidant and Tarmogoyf are certainly not mythic worthy. The only reason is to sell more packs and to protect collectors. If you think that's not the case, you must either be blind or think that wotc is a charity.

How much product is there even going to be? That alone makes rarity far less applicable. As an example Command Tower is listed on the low-end as a 4 dollar common, and unlike other "only good in EDH" cards, it literally does not do anything at all outside of EDH, so it cannot be a factor of its demand in the same way like something like a Taiga is desirable in every format it is legal in. But it is listed as a common. Common compared to what? Every precon had a Sol Ring too; it's literally no 'rarer' than any other Commander product that was only printed in a precon. It's practically irrelevant.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

It isn't a mindblowing concept. It's a fairly simple evolution of the lhurgoyf effect. Mythics overwhelmingly have a feel to them that makes people perk up and take a closer look out of awe. Dictating who can win or lose, gaining tremendous amounts of life, becoming absolutely enormous Tarmogoyf is much too subtle to be a good mythic. Contrast it with Lord of Extinction, which just straight up counts all cards in every graveyard and becomes enormous due to it.



Dark Confidant's ability is only rare-worthy, as evidenced by Dark Tutelage which does the same thing only as an enchantment. Duskmantle Seer triggers for all players and can win just like that through its own ability by automatically and for no mana causing opponents to lose life. It wouldn't surprise me if its effects on limited had something to do with it as well.

Dark Confidant is not very good in limited.

[lyracian]

Magic cards are not bonds. If you're buying a card because of what you think you can sell it for later and not because of what it's worth to you, then fuck you, I hope you get hosed.Personally I find the game far to expensive unless I play "Magic the Stock Market" at the same time as playing "Magic The Gathering". Sure I could just waste money on cards but I would rather waste it on toys for my daughter. Magic is very expensive and while some players may have enough disposable income that is not true of all. I purchased my friends collection for $1000, sold 75% of it for $1200 and still have another $300 of stuff in my trade folder. I also got 2 Sorin LOI for free by buying 4 Deck Duels and selling off the rest of the cards.