[Deck] Aluren

[Pulp_Fiction]

I know, I am so fucking sick of hearing about how good Goyf is and how every deck needs him but really ... he is that good and he is an early wall. The acceleration from Wall of Roots is just simply better than drawing a card from Wall of Blossoms, no argument there. Perhaps a 3/2 or 3/3 split of them would be good? I doubt it but it might be worth testing. But really if you are unable to stick Aluren this deck just does .... nothing and it really is nice to have it if only for the reason of stopping your opponent's Goyfs. This deck can't function very well without Aluren and Goyf just helps it along. Why would you need to draw your whole deck? Recruiter + Aluren = win, why would Wall of Blossoms drawing your whole deck be a good thing if you could just win anyway?

[Frenkill]

Even if you are not playing any win option, you don't need Spike Feeder.
If I have all creatures in play after the combo the total power is:

3 Imperial Recruiter = 3x 1/1
1 Shrieking Drake = 1/1
1 Man-o'-War = 2/2
1 Cavern Harpy = 2/1
1 Kitchen Finks = 3/2
1 Eternal Witness = 2/1
and the Walls

= Total Power of 13

+ 4 Tarmogoyf = 4x */*+1

Tarmogoyf must be only 2/3 to make 21 Damages in one attack.
That means Feeder is not needed.


Just saw your build and noticed you didn't have FoW in, imo that is a big mistake.

What shall I cut for 4 Force of Will? Thoughtseize? Living Wish?

Is the Amount of blue cards enough to play 4 FoW? There are 4 Brainstorm, 4 Intuition, 3 other FoWs 1 Stalker or Man o War and maybe Chain of Vapors to pitch.

[Funky-kun]

My guess would be to cut the Thoughtseizes and 1-2 more cards for 3 FoW and some amount of Ponder.

[Pulp_Fiction]

The Recruiter version does not need Force of Will. The hand destruction is better. If you are playing the Recruiter version why would you ever cut Living Wish? That is Recruiters 4,5,6,7, never cut that, Force is not necessary. As far as Spike Feeder goes, I think he is amazing and strictly better than Auriok Champion or Essence Warden in that it is not a totally dead card without Aluren in play.

The Goyf plan is nice but I have been playing Wall of Blossoms in his spot and I do really like it. It is not necessary and Goyf is probably a lot better in that slot but I am liking Wall of Blossoms a little more in that spot especially against something like Affinity.

[Vetinari]

A big plus for Essence Warden is that it reduces combo to 3 pieces: Aluren, EW and Man-o'-War or Harpy. With the meta speeding up this can be very relevant. Not to mention all the little niceties like buying you a turn against EtW tokens.

[honz]

Lets not forget essence warden's biggest ability, that of making their turn 1 chalice at 1 not only a factor, but a huge problem. Also, despite everyone saying he can save you life by dropping him early, one StP later that doesnt seem like a great plan.

Stick with feeder, he dodges chalice and StP. He chumps, and gains you 4 life in the process. Don't forget that spike feeder can make your goyfs bigger than their goyfs, which is oh so nice. If aluren cannot be found, it can also be used (by hard casting witness / harpy + man-o-war) to pump up a flyer, so you can play shitty faerie stompy for a round.

I see no reason to run warden. He is worse in every situation, except opening with turn 1 warden against ETW. I would rather duress / sieze / therapy / brainstorm looking for FoW or one of those cards.

[kkoie]

I don't understand why people are still going gaga over recruiter-aluren rather than any other build. Yes the recruiters make the combo more streamlined and consistent. But it makes it a weaker deck over all.

I would just like someones responce to the following cons

- if you do not splash red in your mana base, then you have 3-4 dead draws until you are ready to combo off.

- I've noticed a lot of recruiter builds ignore familiars, which are a vital draw mechanism, as well as being pitchable to fow, not to mention that they fly.

- if you splash red in the mana base to not make recruiters dead draws, it makes for a really bad mana base.

- if a goblin player has a goblin sharpshooter in his deck, then you better pray you have a fow when you go off, because if you don't then you lost as soon as your dream stalker hits the stack.

- I also noticed a lot of recruiter builds cutting down on the # of harpies. Having more than one in hand is very handy when you need to respond to someones hate.

Most of these points were the main reason why I abandoned recruiter aluren 2 years ago.

[Nonex]

Greetings eveyone :smile:

This is my first post here, I've been navigating through various forums and this is the first time I see a thread about Aluren 13 pages long. I had to register because I couldn't resist.

I've read the entire thread and found lots of ideas, so I'd like to add some of mine just in case they could seem useful.

I've been playing a non-Recruiter version for some months (hoping to become years), starting from the list Toad showed in his article and adapting it to my tastes:


3 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
3 Windswept Heath
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
3 Island
1 Underground Sea
5 Forest

4 Wall of Blossoms
4 Wall of Roots
2 Man-o'-War
4 Raven Familiar
3 Cavern Harpy
1 Spike Feeder
2 Eternal Witness

2 Chain of Vapor
4 Aluren
2 Chord of Calling
4 Brainstorm
2 Intuition
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed

Sideboard:

1 Cabal Therapy
4 Force of Will
3 Hydroblast
1 Harmonic Sliver
2 Research/Development
4 Offalsnout


- Mana base: I've always been obsessed with Wasteland, so I like to have as many basic lands as possible. Besides I saw that having to fetch a Bayou when I just needed :b: could be an unnecessary risk sometimes, so I added a Swamp. Not all fetchlands here can find it, but I think it's still important. I was also playing with 4 Tropical Islands until I had to play in a tournament with only 2 and didn't notice any difference. That Underground Sea looked good on paper for cases where you may need both colors for the following turns, and I fetch it sometimes indeed. 2 Bayous are okay for me.

- Creatures: mostly unchanged, I made room for the last Wall of Blossoms I usually saw in the sideboard. Even being an explanation for that, I've always thought it's rather pointless anyway. IMHO an additional Wall maindeck shouldn't hinder our development.

- Other spells: after sideboarding Force of Will out in all 7 rounds in a tournament for Pernicious Deeds in 6 of them, my conclusion is that Deeds maindeck should win me more games that Force of Will maindeck and I made the change. I think it depends on the metagame, though, but I'm more satisfied with this configuration. I also made room for 2 Chord of Calling and I like them as well. The fact that they put the creature directly into play is amazing and it's key to winning in many situations, especially when you search a Harpy.

- Sideboard: Harmonic Sliver is a dead card without Aluren in play, but I don't think we need it before that. Besides it can come into play via Chord of Calling. I use it as an answer to general hate in the form of artifacts and enchantments (Pithing Needle, Engineered Plague, Rule of Law, etc.) because it's easy to bounce and replay as many times as needed. Force of Will can't be cut entirely because it's necessary against fast combo decks. I started playing Research / Development a long time ago mainly to recover extirpated Alurens, although it could also bring sideboard cards if necessary; now that Extirpate doesn't appear x4 in every sideboard in my metagame, this card is getting gradually useless to me. I'd run just 1 now, or even cut it out completely. Offalsnouts are there to answer Ichorid decks since they're increasing in numbers; I think Leyline of the Void could be equally effective.



About Imperial Recruiter, when I started to see Aluren lists with it I didn't like them. Almost all my main reasons have already been explained, Recruiter is red and adding another color makes the mana base more vulnerable to Wasteland, but what I don't really like is that in contrast to Chord of Calling, the creature you search with a Recruiter goes to your hand. That's a serious drawback for me, since I've won several games thanks to the creature being put directly into play. You can always try building a stable 4-color mana base, but Recruiter's ability can't change.

Despite all of it, I ended up guessing I had to give it a try. A friend of mine had bought 4 Recruiters a long time ago (when they were a lot cheaper) and lends me them if necessary, so I just had to think of a decklist I'd like. I started from the previous list and thinking the lesser elements I cut completely, the better. After looking at some lists again and with some cards I previously knew, I ended up with this:


2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
5 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Volcanic Island

4 Tinder Wall
1 Cavern Harpy
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Wall of Roots
1 Spike Feeder
2 Eternal Witness
3 Raven Familiar
2 Arctic Merfolk
1 ??? (Ghitu Slinger / Etched Oracle / Man-O'-War / Bone Shredder)

3 Cabal Therapy
4 Aluren
4 Brainstorm
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Intuition
3 Pernicious Deed

Sideboard:

1 Cabal Therapy
1 Harmonic Sliver
3 Force of Will
2 Offalsnout
3 Hydroblast
3 Pyroblast
2 Etched Oracle


- Mana base: the changes are minimal because red is here just as a little splash. The only card I see as mandatory is Volcanic Island since it's the only interesting Mountain that all fetchlands in the deck can find. That Taiga is there because :r: :g: is interesting, but I think we could replace it with another Tropical Island or fetchland and nothing would happen.

- Creatures: I refuse to run less than 7 Walls, but now that :r: is something more than colorless mana, Tinder Wall is okay to me. It's a Wall that drops earlier than others, blocks any creature except those from Threshold decks if they get big, and kills, for example, any goblin it blocks. Besides it allows almost any other card to be played on turn 2 and I think it's our best weapon game 1 against Ichorid since it removes Bridges from Below pretty easily. I may be wrong cutting Wall of Blossoms though. Apart from that its :r::r: may allow us to cut the Taiga. Regarding that unknown creature that is Arctic Merfolk. Its main duty in the combo being an additional cost makes this Merfolk superior to Dream Stalker IMHO. It's immune to counters and Stifle and its ability has Split Second. Other than that it's a 2/2, worse than 1/5, but I replace that miss with Tinder Walls. Finally there's that slot I don't know what to fill it with. All those listed cards are useful to me, but I don't know if any of them is actually okay.

- Other spells: I miss Chord of Calling, however Recruiters aren't bad substitutes, despite that drawback I'll never like. The rest stays the same. Pernicious Deed still helps, especially against aggro-control.

- Sideboard: I feared cutting Offalsnout completely, but I think I should do it and add the last Force of Will again. IMHO Pyroblast is good against Ichorid, Landstill and maybe IGG, but I must test it. Etched Oracle should be good against discard decks, but still don't know. Most new cards here are untested yet.



About the cons just listed above:


- if you do not splash red in your mana base, then you have 3-4 dead draws until you are ready to combo off.

Agreed.


- if you splash red in the mana base to not make recruiters dead draws, it makes for a really bad mana base.

I think it doesn't have to. Red as a splash needs just 1-2 lands, and other duals aren't necessary enough to run more than 2 copies. I play with 6 fetchlands, 8 basic lands, 6 duals, and with 8 Walls that produce additional mana. IMHO it's good for a 4-color deck.


- I've noticed a lot of recruiter builds ignore familiars, which are a vital draw mechanism, as well as being pitchable to fow, not to mention that they fly.

Completely agreed, it's important not to cut one of the few creatures with flying. Recruiters don't obsolete Ravens since they can find noncreature cards and still combo out if Recruiters aren't there for some reason.


- if a goblin player has a goblin sharpshooter in his deck, then you better pray you have a fow when you go off, because if you don't then you lost as soon as your dream stalker hits the stack.

It depends on how many goblin decks are in a tournament, how many of them run Sharpshooters, and how many times the opponent gets to play them. Highly relative situation I guess.


- I also noticed a lot of recruiter builds cutting down on the # of harpies. Having more than one in hand is very handy when you need to respond to someones hate.

IMHO Harpies curse the deck. It's paradoxical that the most dead card in the deck while not comboing is also the first one we want to have in hand when Aluren is in play. Aluren should read "When Aluren comes into play, search your library for any number of cards named Cavern Harpy, reveal them, and put them into your hand. Then shuffle your library" in addition to its actual ability. I guess Recruiter versions can run just 1 if they want and do so because they prefer running 1 and play it after all other creatures (thus risking to lose) than running 3 and risking to have some dead in hand long before comboing. I think both ways are correct and both are incorrect. Since we can't reach a middle point with the cards we have right now, we'll have to choose one until Wizards release some sort of a solution. For now I prefer 1 Harpy and use Arctic Merfolk to help.


P.D: Excuse my bad English :tongue:

[kkoie]

I like your first list the most, obviously :smile:

It's interesting about your comments concerning deed. A friend of mine who also plays aluren came to the same conclusion and replaced forces with deed. It will be interesting to see how that plays out.

[honz]

I have actually been considering maindecking 2 deeds for a while, and never got around to trying it out. Its a decent idea, if your meta calls for it. The only problem i see is that relocating forces to the SB might lead to alot of problems. Despite the shortcomings of the card, it is a key piece of the deck.

I plan on trying out something like:

1 Spike Feeder
1 Eternal Witness
2 Cavern Harpy
2 Man-o'-War
1 Dream stalker
2 Wall of Blossoms
1 Wall of Roots
4 Raven Familiar
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Aluren

1 Chain of Vapor
3 Intuition
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm

4 Duress / thoughtsieze
2 Pernicious Deed

If you run deed in the main, your already putting a heavier reliance on black, so why not just run duress / thoughtseize as well. One main issue with these in place of FoW is that reliance on black, but with deed it almost justifies it. You need to switch up the mana base a little, but it looks decent in theory.

[Davetradint]

Hi everyone,
though I'm not an Aluren master, I made two finals recently (imperial version of the deck) in small tournaments and would like to share some thoughts.

First of all, do not play spike feeder, ghitu slinger or any other kill in the MD.
It is a dead draw, you never want to draw it when you could get the aluren, a winning intuition, etc...
I usually have a Maggot Carrier in the SB and it works fine. Unaffected by BEB, makes no target to your opponent and kills the turn you go off...

Second thing: Harmonic Sliver in MD is a MUST: They play their Needle and name "Harpy", give turn and then you win, easy!! E.g: Play aluren, recruiter, stalker, bounce, recruiter again, harpy, bounce stalker, bouncer recruiter, play harmonic, send Needle to hell, win...

Imperial recruiter does not make your deck worse, NEVER. It may seem a dead draw, but playing 3-4 harpies is too, they have some functions, but your recruiters will serve to combo (first guy) and response (all others).

The version is so stable, that you can win smartly against many decks. As said before, I'm not the best Aluren player, but I see the power of this deck. Abut the mana base, I lately added one Taiga ans one Savannah, just to play Recrs without Aluren and Sliver against Noughts (this case is still under testing)

ALWAYS play FoWs, I tried a japanese build with 3-4 therapies and 4 duress and it sucks, really. What if they manage to drop the Humility? The first turn Trinisphere.... there are many autolosses.... Play Fow, for God's sake!!
FoWs make the difference between autoloss and a smart win, seriously!

Bouncers: one copy of CoV or Echoing T. is okay, plus a coule of Harpies (I find myself sometimes pitching it to a Fow..), and the wonderful Dream Stalker. These guys make no target, so if they ask "what do you bounce?", please answer: "whatever I want". It makes the going off far safer. I strictly recommend playing them.

Final thought: Intuition = Road to victory / Their Fow plus blue card say byebye. They always should counter your Intuitions, you could make the 3x therapy play, unstoppable for any control deck, or search 3 aluren to go off, 3 recruiters, 3 fetchs to thin deck... amazing card, I do not play 4 because it could make it too dependable...

For reference, this is the list I took to a 44 people tournament:
Imperial Aluren

4x Aluren
3x Cabal Therapy
3x Fow
4x Brainstorm
1x Lim-Dûl's Vault
3x Intuition
1x Echoing Truth (maybe I'll change it for a Chain of Vapor)
3x Living Wish

4x Wall of roots
1x Wall of Blossoms
3x Imperial Rcruiter
2x Dream Stalker
1x Man-o'-War
2x Cavern Harpy
2x Eternal Witness
1x Harmonic Sliver

3x City of Traitors
4x Polluted Delta
2x Wooded Foothills
2x Windswept Heath
3x Forest
2x Island
1x Swamp
2x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
1x Taiga
1x Savannah

Sideboard:
1x Imperial Recruiter
1x Eternal Witness
1x Maggot Carrier
1x Bone Shredder
1x City of Traitors
4x Leyline of the Void
3x BEB
3x Research/Development

As I said, Taiga and Savannah could be cut off, I'm just giving them a try.
Comments, replies and doubts are welcome!

[Nonex]

Spike Feeder isn't a dead draw IMHO. It's a 2/2 that can chumpblock and gain 4 life (which is nice against aggro) or make another creature slightly stronger. Besides your list can't gain infinite life so you can't use Maggot Carrier to kill, for each 1 life your opponent loses, you lose 2 (Harpy + Carrier). Gaining infinite life is GG against most decks, only ones that kill through milling have a chance, and they are those with Brain Freeze (who no one play right now and even then you just use your Maggot Carrier or go off with a creature that can attack this turn) and the recently created Painter's Servant + Grindstone combo (which runs Force of Will and possibly Daze so you should Cabal Therapy your opponent's hand to clean Aluren's path, neutralizing the combo as well their countermagic).

Maggot Carrier is bad BTW. The only creature removal you should fear is Swords to Plowshares, against any other thing (including Blasts) you just use Eternal Witness and resume the process. In fact creatures that kill this turn aren't necessary, this is because Spike Feeder is good enough, you gain infinite life and it makes other creatures monsters, so you can pass the turn and win anyway. I think creatures that kill this turn could enter the deck only if they are good by themselves and help while not comboing, Ghitu Slinger kills some interesting creatures but Maggot Carrier does nothing. A second Man-O'-War could make more sense than them though.

You should play Chain of Vapor over Echoing Truth, it's cheaper and that helps more than one would think, in addition to being immune to Spell Snare. IMHO you could replace that lone Lim-Dûl's Vault by a second CoV. They are a valid answer against Trinisphere, Pithing Needle, Humility and other hate forms, possibly better than Force of Will due to the costs.

In case you cut the Savannah, I suggest you replace all Windswept Heath with additional Wooded Foothills, then Volcanic Island will be the way to go because all fetchlands will be able to find it.

[Vetinari]

CoV does something no other bounce can; it enables you go off with only a Raven and another creature (e.g. a Wall).

[Davetradint]

Hey, thanks for comments, I forgot to type the Auriok Champion!
Some lists show Soul Warden but I think Champ fits better.

The issue with the duals is really interesting, I only tohught of a situation in which I needed the savannah, which is hardcasting the Sliver against a 'Nought, but it's so limited...

Another god point about CoV is that you can bounce twice per CoV, and lately I see no tokens in my local meta, which will make me cut ET for the CoV. Trinisphere is horrible in the way it makes yo tap 3 for everything. CoV or Echoing T, you have to pay anyway....

Lim-Dûl's has something good, which is used at end of opp.'s turn, you dive throguh the deck and prepare it, but... if something goes worng later... the cards you draw are the ones you wanted in the previous scenario... I still have to test it more.

The thing about the feeder is that you pass the turn (with a hand full of blue cards and fows, and maybe a therapy or intuition), and expect to kill aggro style, but ... I really feel safe using the Maggot carrier... The debate here is killing this turn or next one... anyway you are going to kill for sure....But I will give a try to the feeder, possible cut the champion and the carrier....Would you add the second man-o-war seriously? I really like the way Stalkers gate in, and maybe adding a Raven familiar could help too...

Please, comments are welcome!!
Thanks everyone!

[honz]

Harmonic Sliver? Honestly?

In case you forgot, you already run the colors for pernicious deed. By running only 1 sliver, and only 1 land that can cast it, the chances of you playing it without aluren is almost nothing. Once you have aluren, i can't think of any enchantment that matters which can't be handled by deed or CoV.

Maggot Carrier? Auriok Champion? Sould Warden?

I can't say any of these cards belong anywhere near this deck. I have never lost a game after passing the turn with infinite life. All this does is add one more uneeded dead card to the deck. Spike feeder does fine by itself. I would actually run essence warden if chalice wasn't such a problem.

If you really find yourself encountering alot of problems which your MD can't answer, i would suggest 1 Rishadan Cutpurse in the SB. There are very few matches that actually require you to destroy your opponent's entire board, but at times you just have to (ensnaring bridge, solitary confinemt).

By the way, how did you place at the 44 person tournament? What were the weaknesses you noticed?

[Davetradint]

The point with the sliver is that you can find it easily with the recruiters, stopping the needle that reads "Harpy", which is the most often play I faced.
If you do not have Aluen on the table, it's really hard to cast the sliver, so the main purpose was to use it in this scenario (post aluren).
If aluren hits the table, it's easier to get the sliver rather than a chain of vapor, which you must search or simply draw....

Many people play stifles here, and deeds are expected, while sliver is not. You may think this is really geek, but it works! Moreover play aluren, and then play deed, and then activate... how much mana do you need? how many turns? I'd like to try deeds, but Humility is the only enchant I can think of right now that stops sliver from rockin'.

I began (copypasting) a version of the deck played in japan, without FoWs and I simply changed cards after cards until I got this, not using Feeder before is just some lack of testing, but I think it can work very good. As you stated too, it makes more free slots...

I do not face many chalices here... random meta perhaps?
I took the deck to two finals in 25 people tournaments, then at the 44 ppl, I sucked, ended 12 or 13, I just did a horrible play while going off, still don't know how, and messed it up, losed the game and the match. It was by round 3...My 2-0 turned into 2-1 and then I went on doing crap all day long.. lol!!

The hardest play I had to face was 3 extirpate in a row. Someone forced the mulligan to 4 and got land, extirpate, extirpate, something.... That's why I added Research...
Stax make me suffer a lot too, if they open by land, mox, trinisphere...does anyone know how to survive??

Would you use Deeds MD? Can anyone post a similar list? Someone has any experience with a deck alike? Comments welcome!!

[lavafrogg]

I play the oracle version due to the fact that card advantage is better against thresh and other control decks and also I run 3 chain of vapors main.

Oracle Aluren

3 Wall of Roots
4 Coiling Oracle
2 Cavern Harpy
3 Raven Familiar
2 Eternal Witness
2 Man O War
2 Spike Feeder

4 Aluren
3 Intuition
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Deep Analysis
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm

2 Polluted Delta
3 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Islands
3 Underground Seas
3 Bayous
2 Forests
1 Island
1 Swamp

Board
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Bob
4 Thoughtsieze

The good part about deed is that it answers everything and helps when your deck craps out on you and throws you under the bus. Aslo it answers the slew of permanates thatstaz can throw at you.

When you have an Aluren on the board and recruiter in hand you win anyway. If they have the stifle for the deed then they have the stifle for the sliver activation and you are still stuck were you left off.

I run more chain of vapor, more draw and a alternate way to combo in leau of a tutor system that allows you to win automatically.

There have been few situations that an Aluren is on the board for either build that wasnt an auto win but with the ability to regrow many chain of vapors I can bounce the opponents board(non land in one fell swoop).

Chalice has never been a factor due to the deck costing 1,2,3 and 4 with the combo at 2,3,4 disruption at 1 and force of will overseeing the whole thing.

Short story...deed shines against any prision matchup

[Vetinari]

Is there an error in the list or are you actually running 63 cards?

On a bit more constructive note; how is Deep Anal. treating you? Why choose it over say Fact or Fiction?

[Nonex]

Would you use Deeds MD? Can anyone post a similar list? Someone has any experience with a deck alike? Comments welcome!!

I've been playing 3 Pernicious Deeds MD for two months more or less, and I'm still satisfied with them, the Threshold matchup is now easier, I've seen a Deed blowing 2 Mongeese and a 4/5 Tarmogoyf and winning me the game where Force of Will would have failed. I'm still testing the Recruiter version, but I made some changes recently (you can see the original list, plus a non-Recruiter version, in the previous page):

-1 Tinder Wall
-3 Wall of Roots
+4 Wall of Blossoms ---> they must come back

-1 Taiga
+1 Volcanic Island ---> it needs testing, but the sideboard seems to ask for it


Sideboard:

-1 Harmonic Sliver
+1 Stern Proctor ---> still valid, on-color, synergy with Cabal Therapy, pitchable to Force of Will

-2 Offalsnout
+2 Reroute ---> unexplored tech against Wasteland, Grindstone, Cephalid Coliseum, Goblin Charbelcher... easy to play with Tinder Wall, but possibly too narrow

The list now looks like this:

3 Polluted Delta
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Volcanic Island
5 Forest
2 Island
1 Swamp

1 Cavern Harpy
3 Raven Familiar
2 Arctic Merfolk
4 Imperial Recruiter
1 Spike Feeder
2 Eternal Witness
3 Tinder Wall
1 Wall of Roots
4 Wall of Blossoms
1 ??? (*)

3 Cabal Therapy
4 Aluren
4 Brainstorm
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Intuition
3 Pernicious Deed

Sideboard:

1 Cabal Therapy
1 Stern Proctor
3 Force of Will
2 Reroute
3 Hydroblast
3 Pyroblast
2 Etched Oracle

(*) Ghitu Slinger, Etched Oracle, Man-O'-War, Bone Shredder, an additional copy of a creature already there...

[Guy I Don't Know]

vomit.

Force seems good except that the card you are pitching is usually better than the one you are countering. Use Recruiter or use cavern harpy, raven, and fow, do not use both.

[lavafrogg]

Deep anal is there so resolving and intuition is game breaking against thresh/control and when you have no hand due to discard.
The combo is multiple pieces so a fact or fiction will get you one combo piece but you still have to mise the other whereas deep anal will help you draw a shit ton of cardsperiod(intuition for witness, anal, anal)

[Willoe]

Deep anal

Sorry for spamming, but seriously, is this intended or just a wierd name for Deep Analysis? I'd just like to say, like P_R just made an announcement where he said that t r e s h will be censored to ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh. Can't we do that so Deep Anal will be censored to Deep Analysis? Goddamn, even though it's funny, it's pissing me off that squids that research artificial killer-lions can be related to something vulgar xD

Okay, this is off-topic and might cause a spam-warning, but still, it's just so you know.

Keep on the discussion about the deck, I have no intentions of hi-jacking the thread, just recommending a censorship of Deep Anal.

[honz]

If you dont see any problems with chalice, i would suggest using essence warden. Assuming you have aluren + recruiter + bounce (man-o-war, harpy, CoV, echoing truth, intution, vault) in hand, you can play around needle naming harpy like so:

recruiter for recruiter
recruiter for dream stalker
dream stalker, returning recruiter
recruiter for harpy
harpy, return stalker
stalker, return recruiter
recruiter for essence warden
play warden
bounce harpy
harpy, return harpy
harpy, return harpy...etc for infinite life

This might not happen very often, but it is something to keep in mind. With infinite life, you can just wait to topdeck deed / CoV. You could also just win with harpy beats. Pithing needle is another reason why the non-recruiter version is better. In non-recruiter, a needle on harpy only slows you down. You just drop ravens, man-o-wars, and goyfs until you can over run their defense.

Im not sure deep analysis should ever be played over lim-dul's vault. Although vault is not card advantage, it finds what you need much more reliably.

[Guy I Don't Know]

against pithing needle u just sideboard in one stern proctor and then it was like pithing needle was never there...

[Davetradint]

Defitanely I'm cutting both Auriok Champion from MD and Maggot C. from the SB. No one names Spike Feeder with a Needle, so you free up a SB slot (you change AC for SF in Maindeck, and as many of you have stated before, it serves for the infinite life loop, as a chumpblock, can be hardcasted...
Needle is not a problem anyway, Harmonic Sliver or even better Stern proctor solve the situation as soon as you go off.

Trinisphere is a problem, so Stax is a bad matchup IMHO, Deeds are asking me to be included MD...or at least, a couple sideboarded.

About Coiling Oracle... I think I'm pro-Blossoms. Why do you want that card to be blue, if you want to use it while going off.. it means you surely can/may pitch it to FoW. Pitch it and then.... try to get it with a Wish? Whatever it is, Wall or Oracle, you do not want to pitch it, because you want to use it later.

Recruiters may seem dead cards, but they stabilize the combo liek no other card. I agree with all of you who state they are useless without the Aluren, but they are good, very good...And adding a Taiga and a Volcanic Island does not make your mana base crap, the most important is to keep a couple of basic Forests...

I'd like to try Tarmogoyfs MD, sure they work as a Lure and "Plan B", if anyone can give us a report or comment...

[Guy I Don't Know]

Does trinisphere make it so you can't cast crits off aluren for free or not?

also tarmogofs are good cuz they block goyfs

[THEchubbymuffin]

Does trinisphere make it so you can't cast crits off aluren for free or not?

Yes it does.

[honz]

All i ever play is non-recruiter, because i think its better, and i cant afford recruiters if i wanted them. I'm sick of recruiter or not debate, so im just gonna talk about non-recruiter.

As much as i hate to say it, goyf is great in this deck. It does so many things at once, its hard to see any reason not to run it. For starters, it draws counters and StP like none other, which clears the way for your combo. The walls and oracles simply do not draw the same amount of hate that goyf does; i have never had a wall eat a StP. Goyf can also block goyfs, another thing that your walls just can't do. Goyf + another creature can kill a goyf. Against decks like thresh, this leads to a stalemate, which ultimately favors you. The final reason goyf is good, is because it offers a secondary win-con. If the hand presents itself (against the right deck), don't be afraid to go offensive with forces, therapies, goyfs, CoV and man-o-wars. They have really been great for me.

I think oracle just makes this deck too vulnerable to creatures.

Stax ussually comes down to a race between deed and armageddon. Your only chance G1 is a force heavy hand. G2 you want all your duress / thoughtsieze, deeds, therapies, and forces. With these 14-15 cards, you should be able to win g2-3. Learn to love you basics, and hold some lands in your hand. If you just counter armageddon, and wait for deed you should win.

[Nonex]

About Trinisphere, creatures can still be played at instant speed. Besides :3: rather than normal mana costs let you administrate lands so you can leave certain colors open when you normally couldn't. I'd say there could be nastier permanents on the board (like Blood Moon).

[worsel]

honz... can u pls post ur decklist with SB?

[Cacks]

Hi. I'm new to these threads, but used to play aluren in the extended PTQs, and remember the fond joy of the life matchup... ;-)

I've not been playing for some time, but hope to make a legacy event in a couple of weeks in London. I have been fiddling with an aluren build which has evolved from Pat Chappin's, but with a much more anti-control / anti-aggro control build. It therefore surrenders ground on the pure aggro matchups. In addition I have always felt concerned by the disproportionate number of 2 and 3 drops in aluren builds, so have slimmed down the mana costs significantly. The result, which appears fairly solid in testing is as follows. I don't promise that this is perfect, but it certainly represents a different approach with a more 'type 1 combo' feel (i.e. brainstorms, ponders, and disruption):

3 force of will
4 brainstrom
3 ponder
3 thoughtseize
3 cabal therapy

4 wall of roots

4 imperial recruiter
1 dream stalker
1 cavern harpy
1 spike feeder
1 etched oracle
2 eternal witness

2 CoV / EE / githu slinger / stern proctor

4 aluren

2 bayou
3 tropical island
1 taiga
1 volcanic island
1 underground sea
2 forest
2 island
1 swamp
4 polluted delta
4 wooded foothills

You'll see that I have cut the combo as hard as possible, although maintained the instant kill with etched oracle. It can be disrupted, but only with STP or two burn spells sufficient to kill a dream stalker. With the disruption in the deck that normally seems rare. I'd probably have 1 dream stalker in the side for matchups where this is a problem.

There are lots of 3s rather than 4s. That is because I'd prefer 4 thoughtseize 2 therapy in the abstract, but the intuition for 3 therapy is too powerful not to be able to do. 3 FoW simply because the deck struggles on card advantage, and can dig like mad, and seems OK in testing. I acknowledge that this may be wrong though. Finally I can't fit in the 4th ponder.

Sideboard is still up for grabs, but certainly 4 leyline of the void, 2 other any graveyard cards, deeds / E.E. and 1 rishadan cutpurse.

I can't say I know enough to enter into the long standing familiar or recruiter debate, although I like the streamlined recruiter build personally, especially for this more anti-control build.

I do, however, cry on the inside when I see builds with many 3 drops and only 18 lands, as I my testing I found that many games with my earlier builds turned upon mana control - in particular against some landstill builds, 42 land (a surprisingly good deck when properly pilotted and not to be dismissed), black decks (always a horror) and good goblin builds. Even with my brainstorm / ponder package I still think 21 is low as you are aiming for 4 or even 5 mana in play.

Anyway, all comments appreciated.

[Cacks]

Oh - sorry I missed 3 intuition out of that list.

[kkoie]

I'll be honest, though I'm sure many disagree with me, the biggest weakness of your deck, is the reliance on Imperial Recruiter. Yes it streamlines the combo, but the problem is, recruiter is a bad card until Aluren hits the table. And when Aluren hits the table, the deck was already winning, even before people started using Imperial Recruiters. I had tested imperial recruiters for a year before the innovator stumbled upon it, and I came to the same conclusion that Toad came too, quite a bit of time before I did : Imperial Recruiter is not good for Aluren. For one thing, you have to splash red, and the mana base gets horrible when you do that. Far too suseptable to land hate. I also notice that people seem to think that they don't need raven familiar, but it is far too good in aluren to not run familiars. For one thing they have evation for when you need to go the beatdown route (and even if you are running the combo ver. of aluren, there will be times when you have to go beatdown).


My suggestion is, take your ver. and run it against a gauntlet of your hardest matchups. Then take the recruiters out, put more harpies and the raven familiars back in, and run the same gauntlet. I'd be willing to bet that in the end, the non-recruiter ver. would fair better.

Also, I would suggest replacing the oracle with wall of blossoms. No walls don't get your land into play, but they live a lot longer against aggro decks like goblins.

For a good list, I would suggest searching the forums for Toads latest suggested build. He's considered the expert for most aluren decks. Though he doesn't like the combo ver. I would think taking his build and alering it slightly for the combo win would not be difficult.

[Guy I Don't Know]

saying that recruiter is bad is a little misleading. It is quite good in the deck, but not the way that you have been testing. First of all, the deck he proposed doesnt play living wish (i guess you could play like eladamris call if you didn't like the wish.) so instead of having 7 recruiters you have 4, so yes i would say his build is worse then a good familiar harpy version, but his version is not tuned. Second who said you have to play red? I agree it messes up the mana base and is uneeded.

These are the props I see to Familiar/Harpy:
*Supports FOW better
*More subpar creatures to sac to cabal therapy
*cheaper

Slops
*Have to draw three different cards to basically win while recruiter needs only 2 and so less likely to be able to go off turn 3-4
*Living Wish is excessive so usually not played (could be played but usually isnt) so no tool box

Props of recruiter:
*Faster
*More redundant
*Can support living wish easier for toolbox
*ONly need two cards in hand to win- More god hands exist where you win as long as they don't kill you before your third turn.

Slops
*Less blue cards to pitch to force
*less shitty creatures to sac to cabal therapy



I personally feel that the non-recruiter version is better vs combo decks because it can support FOW while recruiter version is better vs anything that wont kill you on turn 1-2 because recruiter version can be better vs. hate like discard, and counter spells, while the harpy/familiar version is better at disrupting other people's strategies.

[kkoie]

Familiars also provide more draw pre-aluren, recruiters do not. I do not see how recruiter is better vs. hate. Aluren did not have any serious issues with targeted creature hate without recruiter. At least with myself and other experienced players I know of. Recruiter does not help dig, like familiars do, when you have, for example, a pithing needle or meddling mage on board. It does not help you dig for a much needed therapy or force of will. Recruiter really does virtually nothing for the deck, except allow you to run fewer harpies. When I was playing with the recruiter ver. I actually found myself trying to fit the familiars back in, so I could have more draw for answers against the hate.

The reason I used the blanket statement that recruiter is bad, is because it does nothing but stream-line the combo. A combo that is slower than most other combo decks. It does not help the control plan, you can't use it like you can a familiar to dig for answers pre-aluren and when aluren is on the table.

I suppose listing my reasons is ultimately fruitless, because I doubt it will change anyones opinion. Just be assured that a decent number of players, beyond myself, who have been playing aluren for several years, agree with me when I say recruiter is bad. Aluren is a combo-control deck, and recruiter while stream-lining the combo, adds no help to the control side.

[Guy I Don't Know]

u have some valid points, but imperial recruiter combo can get around hate because first of all, naming pithing needle on harpy (or anything for that matter) is useless after sideboard or if you run a viridian shaman or stern proctor mainboard, you can just combo off, and get rid of the needle mid combo. Second imperial recruiter is better vs discard because it is then a two card combo, when drawing off the top after they get rid of your hand is crucial.

Im not saying that recruiter is better, but im saying that recruiter and harpy/fam have different qualities that are better in different situations, recruiter isnt strictly worse,

[Illissius]

I'm not experienced with Aluren, but from an outsider's perspective, the advantage of Recruiter is that it turns Aluren from a more-card combo into a two-card combo. Two specific cards are much easier to find and protect than more than two specific cards.

[Davetradint]

I've faced a Needle naming "harpy" many times, and once aluren+rec. hits the table, I win. No need to dig with a familiar and bounce bounce bounce. Once you have familiar + harpy you easily dig many times and get solutions too, but I need one less card, and use Stern proctor MD (I used to pack a Harmonic sliver before), Needles are useless if they name harpy, but if they name, e.g: spike feeder..... it's much worse for them :)

The most disgusting thing is a Trinisphere, or maybe a Chalice set at 2, but hey... guess what, instead of X slots divided amongst harpies and familiars, I added Recruiters and bouncers, blue pitchable cards. I may have lost 4 pitchable cards, but if we use cards only thinking about pitching them... maybe this is not the way....

I agree with those who say Rec. is bad card pre-aluren, because it does nothing like drawing, digging, okay! but instead, you can balance its weakness using those free slots it gave to you! The familiar+harpy version offers variety, but you pay a price. This happens too with the other version, it's high time we distinguish between the controlish raven familiar version and the bit-more-aggresive Recruiter version.

I'm giving a try to a hybrid MD:
3x Imperial R.
2x Cavern Harpy
2x Raven Familiar
2x CoV

Familiars are nice, really! but having multiple choices is good too, I would never get rid of my Recs. right now, cannot say in the future....

Sometimes I think people just criticise Rec. just because they are (unfairly) expensive. If Rec. are bad, time will tell.... they will not hold for much time if economy laws rule...if nobody wants them, they will go down for sure...

This is only an opinion, still would like to test familiar-heavy versions and many choices....

[Guy I Don't Know]

would u have a list that you would like to share? fow in rec seems good.

[Davetradint]

Hey, of course!
I'm still improving the deck, as I need more testing, my latest build, which I'm taking to a tournament this very Sunday:

Imperial Aluren

2 City of Traitors
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
21 Lands

4 Aluren
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Intuition
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Living Wish
22 Spells

3 Wall of Roots
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Spike Feeder
2 Eternal Witness
2 Cavern Harpy
3 Imperial Recruiter
2 Dream Stalker
1 Man-o'-War
1 Stern Proctor
2 Raven Familiar
18 Creatures

Sideboard:
1 Imperial Recruiter
1 Bone Shredder
1 Eternal Witness
1 City of Traitors
3 Duress
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Research/Development
3 Pernicious Deed

I finally changed Auriok+Maggot for a Spike Feeder, I see the point in it, so thanks to those Spike feeder supporters, it frees a slot in the deck and works okay. About Harmonic Sliver vs Stern Proctor MD, how often is a Chalice set at 2? I played some games against a White Stax and the guy really put me into trouble with that Chalice@2, luckily, we have Chains of Vapor...

As you can see, there are 20 blue cards, I added a second harpy because sometimes I had to pitch the only one I had... Maybe this hybrid or Rec. version is a little more aggro than the familiar raven one, so maybe our FoWs should be used only for emergency situations or just to protect the Aluren. I have found that once Aluren hits the table, you're almost on the win. The Rec. thing is almost unstoppable (ok, krosan grip is a pain in the *ss), since many times you have a Rec in hand and thus you only need to drop the enchantment...

I also have some doubts about City of Traitors, it gives a nice boost for a 3rd turn aluren or a second turn play: 1st turn forest, turn, city, wall of roots + wall/wish, but apart from that, it's the "never want to draw this" card, especialy mid/late game.

Comments, suggestions, changes,help and techs all welcome!

[Cacks]

One thing you could consider with the recruiter build is expanding the silver bullet options - which is a point that I think is an advantage often overlooked by many non-recruiter build players. Recruiter can find, for example, etched oracle (4/4 plus potential ancestral, if your mana base survives... plus enables the instant kill, although I am not sure how important this really is unless facing brain freeze), duplicant, triskelion (which also allows the instant kill). The latter two in particular taking out troublesome tarmogoyfs. These are top heavy in terms of casting cost, not blue cards so not pitchable to FoW, and I am definitely not saying that this is optimal, but rather put it forward as something to consider.

I agree with your comments on city of traitors. In my experience they are occasionally great, but often horrible. I have tried a more rock-like black heavy build, which used sensei's divining tops and ancient tomb, which was in fact surprisingly good, save for the inevitable loss of FoW protection in the very early game, which finally ruled it out.

Just one question on CoV generally. I often see people playing just one - do they not have problems finding it when needed, as it is not tutorable like, say, stern proctor?

[Lego]

Even if you're playing the Imperial Recruiter version, Tarmogoyf is huge in this deck. He gives you an alternate means to win, and often while people are spending time killing Tarmogoyf, you're winning with Aluren.

There's virtually no reason I can fathom to play the non-Recruiter version basically ever.

And also, SDT is hot in Aluren. Try it out.

[Guy I Don't Know]

yea, tarmogoyf is really good, thresh and gobs can beat down on you while you try to get your pieces, but goyf halts that pretty good.

The wish sideboard seems like it could be expanded, especially a viridian shaman, but i would move proctor to side and main a shaman if possible, if you are worried about chalice

[Vetinari]

And also, SDT is hot in Aluren. Try it out.
The problem I had with it in testing is that I seldom had mana to spin it. I find Ponder strictly better as it digs deeper, shuffles crap away and is more mana efficient. Out of curiosity, what did you cut for SDT?

[freakish777]

2 City of Traitors
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
21 Lands

4 Aluren
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Intuition
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Living Wish
22 Spells

3 Wall of Roots
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Spike Feeder
2 Eternal Witness
2 Cavern Harpy
3 Imperial Recruiter
2 Dream Stalker
1 Man-o'-War
1 Stern Proctor
2 Raven Familiar
18 Creatures

Sideboard:
1 Imperial Recruiter
1 Bone Shredder
1 Eternal Witness
1 City of Traitors
3 Duress
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Research/Development
3 Pernicious Deed

For starters, Wall of Blossoms for the most part isn't as good as Wall of Roots. The latter gives you more potential for a turn 3 Aluren which is good against decks not running Force of Will (additionally, you'd be surprised the number of times people will play Daze completely forgetting that it makes the last mana to push Aluren through). Additionally, Goyf is a 4/5 about 75% of the time or so (Instant, Sorcery, Land, and either creature or Enchantment), so the 1 extra point of toughness is good (a lot of decks running Goyf also happen to be running Force of Will, so here speed isn't the key, but rather not dying to Goyf, Wall of Roots forces them to blow a Swords to Plowshares or find another Goyf to get around it, so it should almost always be a Time Walk or two against those decks).

Stern Proctor doesn't seem like a good maindeck card at all. I would rather have the 4th Force of Will. Additionally it seems like you should be able to squeeze 2 Ponders in somewhere.

Research/Development seems absolutely terrible. I would replace these with something like Viridian Zealot (ie, more Wish targets that do what you wanted Stern Proctor to do).

[Davetradint]

Actually I'm thinking about the Tarmogoyf issue, wall vs Tarmo... The only point that I would miss from the walls would be the mana fixing, it's too cool!

About Wall of Blossoms, i have cut it, since I have added raven familiars, i need the wall no more, i just use the familiar once i'm going off, digging and getting only what I need, without drawing too many cards. Moreover I get a free slot.. If I added Tarmogoyfs... what should I take out? Walls? Instead of blocking I'd be attacking, wich is cool, since it can be a "B" Plan, i still have to test....

Some of you suggest SDT and Ponder but the point with brainstorms, is that I can hide cards from disgusting duresses or thoughtseizes... ponder does not... and as Vetinari said, it's hard to arrange mana enough to use and abuse it.

The 4th FoW cannot be included, There is almost no more room, and we have not so many blue cards.. i find 3 are okay, since we are not planning to be FoWing and pitching cards, IMHO.

The anti-artifact card, Harmonic Sliver, Stern Proctor, Viridian Shaman is included MD just to laugh at pithing needle (if they drop 2, begin to prey instead), I had some doubts between 2 chain of vapor or 1 chain and 1 echoing truth...but finally included 2 chain and the Stern, but maybe I'll change for a Viridian Shaman, it's not blue but hardcastable, and skips trinispheres and chalices@2. Viridian Zealot.... i cannot afford drop him and pay, 4 mana...it can force me to give a turn and if they are packing hate, giving a turn means giving another chance to drop more hate....

The sideboard is the product of a changing mind. I added the R/D because of nasty extirpates. If they manage to take it from your hand into your grave...
BEB are added because of my local meta, where you can find a couple of slighs, Dragon Stompy, Aggroloam....I would cut it but what can i get into the SB? Pernicious deed are a must, since they sweep for good and duress.. what if I took them out and added Extirpates?

Comments welcome! Thanx!

[Guy I Don't Know]

i have found deeds to be too slow vs aggro decks like aggroloam to be effective, and why in the world would you want extirpate?

[Vetinari]

Because it ends many annoyances like recurring Wastelands and Glacial Chasms, their Extirpates and so on. Remember we are running discard witch makes Extirpate even more potent.

[Ben Lundquist]

Hey, of course!
I'm still improving the deck, as I need more testing, my latest build, which I'm taking to a tournament this very Sunday:

Imperial Aluren

2 City of Traitors
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
21 Lands

4 Aluren
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Intuition
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Living Wish
22 Spells

3 Wall of Roots
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Spike Feeder
2 Eternal Witness
2 Cavern Harpy
3 Imperial Recruiter
2 Dream Stalker
1 Man-o'-War
1 Stern Proctor
2 Raven Familiar
18 Creatures

Sideboard:
1 Imperial Recruiter
1 Bone Shredder
1 Eternal Witness
1 City of Traitors
3 Duress
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Research/Development
3 Pernicious Deed

I finally changed Auriok+Maggot for a Spike Feeder, I see the point in it, so thanks to those Spike feeder supporters, it frees a slot in the deck and works okay. About Harmonic Sliver vs Stern Proctor MD, how often is a Chalice set at 2? I played some games against a White Stax and the guy really put me into trouble with that Chalice@2, luckily, we have Chains of Vapor...

As you can see, there are 20 blue cards, I added a second harpy because sometimes I had to pitch the only one I had... Maybe this hybrid or Rec. version is a little more aggro than the familiar raven one, so maybe our FoWs should be used only for emergency situations or just to protect the Aluren. I have found that once Aluren hits the table, you're almost on the win. The Rec. thing is almost unstoppable (ok, krosan grip is a pain in the *ss), since many times you have a Rec in hand and thus you only need to drop the enchantment...

I also have some doubts about City of Traitors, it gives a nice boost for a 3rd turn aluren or a second turn play: 1st turn forest, turn, city, wall of roots + wall/wish, but apart from that, it's the "never want to draw this" card, especialy mid/late game.

Comments, suggestions, changes,help and techs all welcome!

can someone explain to me how this deck actually wins the game? i see how you gain infi life, draw your whole deck, and get infi mana but how do you actually get a win out of the combo? are you making a creature super big with spike feeder and then attacking? if thats the case, why give them an extra turn, as you probably won't have a creature that has been in play since the previous turn. i know the list i used to play in extended used maggot carrier, which i agree is pretty poor, but its better than just not playing a win condition at all.

also, someone else posted how etched oracle is a instant speed win, and i just don't see it happening in the list they presented. what am i overlooking?

[Jaynel]

can someone explain to me how this deck actually wins the game? i see how you gain infi life, draw your whole deck, and get infi mana but how do you actually get a win out of the combo?

also, someone else posted how etched oracle is a instant speed win, and i just don't see it happening in the list they presented. what am i overlooking?

Spike Feeder makes all your creatures very large, then you fill your hand with Force of Wills before passing the turn.

[Vetinari]

Although to be honest, the most common path to victory is concession. People tend to assume that somewhere in all the infinite shenanigans you have some way of killing them.

[Davetradint]

Hahahahah!!!!!
I have won some game because of:
"ok,ok, so you do the combo thing..
-Yes, (although my win condition has been RFG....) yes...
-okay, yours... next game.."

I used to play the auriok+maggot, but after reading some posts and comments, I see the point in Spike feeder, one more free slot, nobody names it with a needle, and if they do... foolish plan, then there is no problem in giving turn, since they way you give it, it's a win: 3 Fow + 3 blue cards + any card.
The only problem could be when time ends and you have 5 turns...

Turning back to the deck, i think I'll cut the 2 CoT and replace them with a basic forest and another land. Replace also the Proctor with an Uktabi orangutan/viridian shaman (unaffected by chalice@2 and hardcastable, but not pitchable to Fow).

And the damned sideboard:

1x Imperial Recruiter (you get this 9 of every 10 wishes)
1x Eternal Witness (sh*t happens and this lady has saved me from hell a couple of times, maybe not so useful after many changes in the deck)
1x Bone Shredder (kill the mage, kill Gaddok, similar to Man-o'-war, arguable... of course)
1x City of Traitors/whatever land... or a critter, just something that helps¿?
3x Pernicious Deed (Stax is almost an autolose game, I think these bombs can help, just to mention one pairing)
3x Extirpate (too many sweet things to remove... cabal therapy + extirpate can be painful)
2/3x Duress (more discard but I don't know if we really need it)
2/3x Research/Development (I added these because of "Extirpate ->Aluren", something BW Pikula does, and could BGW Rock too.. I do not have Tarmogoyfs right now so I do not have a B plan...)

Please, some thoughts about sideboard?

[IndyTerminator]

also, someone else posted how etched oracle is a instant speed win, and i just don't see it happening in the list they presented. what am i overlooking?

Its not actually instant unless Etched Oracle is already in play. Once Oracle is in play, you use Spike Feeder to put counters on him and deck your opponent without having to pass the turn.

[honz]

When someone actually looses a game after going off for infinite life, twenty 3000/3000 creatures, and 20 force of wills, then we can talk about an instant win condition. Until then, just run spike feeder and enjoy the extra slot.

Just run tarmogoyf. If you have tested at all, you would realize how much better goyf is than a wall.

Someone asked me for a list, so this is what i would run:

2 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Polluted Delta

2 Island
5 Forest
4 Tropical Island
3 Bayou

4 Aluren
1 Spike Feeder
4 Raven Familiar
2 Cavern Harpy
3 Man-o-War
1 Dream Stalker

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Wall of Blossoms
1 Wall of roots

4 Brainstorm
3 Intuition
2 Chain of Vapor

4 Force of Will
3 Cabal Therapy

Sideboard:
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Divert
4 Extirpate
3 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Cabal Therapy

I just have a few things to say about my list. First, the mana base is the most solid i have found. I think 2 islands is a must, as a good portion of the deck needs blue to function. The mana-base is aimed at performing under waste-lock, and blood moon as best as possible.

I play blossoms over roots for a couple reasons. If you play right, the only thing that should hurt your mana-base is sinkholes + wastes + vindicate. There are decks that play that, but thats where FoW, therapy, and divert come in. Blossoms allows you to draw into your combo pieces, or stall pieces while stalling itself. That 1 card can be the difference in the game. Also, you can go off necropotence style with man-o-war, harpy, and blossoms. Also, CoV with familiar, and wall is pretty sick. Make sure to play atleast 1 wall of roots, because spike feeder needs mana to pump your creatures.

The lone Dream Stalker is there to play around pernicious deed / bounce lands to reuse / be a wall. I might cut a man-o-war for a 3rd harpy, if i do that then dream stalker would have to be a man-o-war. So, i'm thinking about:
3 harpy
3 man-o-war
0 dream stalker

For the sideboard, deed is there for when you need it. Extirpate helps your combo MU, as well as loam, ichorid, waste-lock, control. BEB against blood-moon decks, combo, gobbos. The 4th therapy for control / combo. The diverts are for discard, sinkhole, counterspells (i play aluren, they counterspell, i divert counterspell to target divert, aluren resolves).

You might want grips in the board

[Guy I Don't Know]

can we split this forum into imperial recruiter version and non-imperial recruiter versions of aluren? They play totally different, we have different threads for different colors of thresh...

In the imperial recruiter version, isn't having infinite life good enough?
Using Auriok Champion and Maggot Carrier, I am wondering if jsut Auriok Champion is needed, You can gain life and then wait for a living wish for carrier or just beat down (having harpy and stalker out means you can attack every turn and then bounce them all and then play them all again so they are really hard to kill) the only problem with not playing carrier is time concerns, because you will most likely win, it will just take awhile.

What decks can beat a deck with infinite life?

[Nonex]

Agreed with the topic split.

About the list, the only thing I'd change right now is -1 Dream Stalker +1 Wall of Blossoms, and possibly find room for 1 Swamp if Wasteland is everywhere. Do you miss any artifact or enchantment specific removal?

I'm trying Stifle in the sideboard. If I get any relevant results I'll post them.

[Guy I Don't Know]

stifle? what is stifle for? I would go with engineered explosives if you are trying to go against combo, because it is relevant other places, and usually if they are fast enough to go off it is through ETW tokens, Getting up to storm count ten is a lot harder, and usually they storm 5 make tokens and 10 you til your dead.

in this vain, are there any creatures that kill ETW tokens for less than four mana?

[Vetinari]

in this vain, are there any creatures that kill ETW tokens for less than four mana?
There is Plague Spitter and Crypt Rats (both probably still too slow) or if you are red the bad-ass Bloodfire Dwarf.

edit: another interesting (if janky) option is Festercreep, especially for people already playing Feeder.

edit2: facing an army of angry goblins it's a pretty safe bet Death's-Head Buzzard will need to do some blocking and die a vengefully death.

[Nonex]

Necroplasm looks faster and can do some tricks with Spike Feeder.

I'm trying Stifle just to see if it's any good as a sort of disruption. No one plays Empty the Warrens around here but if someone does I run Pernicious Deed MD. Anyway I'm taking Engineered Explosives into account. Thanks for pointing that.

[Guy I Don't Know]

necroplasm seems like the best, totally forgot about that card. You can even intuition/living wish for it and it comes back

Hmm Pernicious Deed maindeck... That card seems pretty good, I have two slots open maindeck and considering duress, EE, or Deed. Deed can be a little slower
Heres the specs:

for Deed
0 CC 3 mana
1 CC 4 mana
2 CC 5 mana
3 CC 6 mana
4 CC 7 mana

for EE
0 CC 2 mana
1 CC 3 mana
2 CC 4 mana
3 CC 5 mana

The benefit for deeds is that decks that run multiple threats such as trinisphere and chalice of the void, it is better against. It is also better vs goblins in theory cuz it kills all the creatures. and can kill 4+ CC permanents. also it can kill lands.

EE on the other hand, Can evade counterbalance, while still blowing it up, is 1 mana cheaper, and is fast enough vs ETW. If the opponent makes 10+ guys turn 1 on the play, then Deed is too slow, while EE can destroy them still.

I have found that aluren has such a good late game vs any deck that plays to the late game that the deeds or EE may not be needed, if it is losing, it usually loses to quik combo, or disruptive permanents. Duress is good vs both of these options.

[Vetinari]

Wouldn't Thoughtseize be strictly better since it can hit Magus of the Moon, Vexing Shusher, Xantid Swarm, Painter, ...

[Guy I Don't Know]

I am playing the a version similar to the ones that did well at worlds, with recruiters and four thoughtseiz already.

[arsenalpow]

in this vain, are there any creatures that kill ETW tokens for less than four mana?

Not on color but maybe orzhov pontiff?

Card type: Creature

Creature type: Human Cleric

Power/Toughness:1/1

Casting cost: 1BW

Card text: Haunt (When this card is put into a graveyard from play, remove it from the game haunting target creature.)
When Orzhov Pontiff comes into play or the creature it haunts is put into a graveyard, choose one - creatures you control get +1/+1 until end of turn; or creatures you don’t control get -1/-1 until end of turn.

[Davetradint]

I agree with the split issue of the topic, anyway...

I went to a tournament last Sunday, only 17 people attended so it cannot be considered a real battlefield, but just for reference I played against Cephalid (losed 0-2), Landstill (won 2-0), Ichorid (won 2-1), Thresh (with the swann combo, Won 2-0) and then got enough points for the top8, where I met the same Cephalid, this time I won 2-1, then semifinals against the ichorid, won 2-0 and final against Survival, where I could have won, but a mixture of stupidity and bad luck made me end with 1-2.

I managed to pack in a playset of Tarmogoyfs and... they rool!!!
I'm addicted now to those green folks, they put pressure like nobody else, and helped me winning in quarterfinals beatdown mode and some other games. With Walls, this could never happen... As I play Rec. version, and as others state, the deck acts in a little different way, but I would even change the mana base and try something like Honz has commented. Had I met Stax in Swiss rounds, I would have suffer a lot.

My mana base right now is:
4x Polluted Delta
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Forest
3x Island
2x Swamp
2x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
1x Taiga

I usually want to play my basics firstly and then, if possible, drop the tropicals, I suppose non-recruiter goes the same way. As said in other posts, still need more testing. I've been playing this deck for only a couple of months, and there are people here who have played aluren for years, they will agree with me (i agree with them is more correct) in the power and stability that this deck has. I have made 3 consecutive finals in small local tournaments and if I had tested more, I would have won any of them (it's me the crap, not the deck :P ). This deck is possibly one of the best underplayed decks of the format, and needs knowledge about the stack and its own tricks. I am still discovering some amazing thigns the deck can do.

About sideboard, I used:

1x Imperial Rec.
1x Bone Shredder (needed it only a couple of times)
1x Eternal Witness (think I never needed her... maybe I'll cut it)
3x Divert (funny to misdirect opponent therapies, they helped)
3x Duress (used them only one time)
3x Pernicious Deed (helped a lot, one of the things i'll probably never cut)
3x Extirpate (one the most evil cards ever printed, I love them!)

What do you usually side in-out, guys? and one last thing, can Faerie Macabre see play in the deck/ SB?

[Guy I Don't Know]

I was looking at your deck to see what you would side out , and saw that you only play 21 lands and not 4 wall of roots... how do you get four mana!!! I play 22 lands and four walls, and am considering it to be on the light side. Plus what is the reason for the second harpy? Ok, i guess if you want to run raven familiar you can, (i don't) but that second harpy is practically useless in this version, except letting you pitch one to FOW. I guess what I am trying to say is that your deck looks really janky IMHO and I am wondering what some of the card choices are for. Also, maindeck, viridian shaman is so much more versatile that it is worth having less blue cards in the deck to play it over stern proctor. Also, why play FOW? I know it is a good card, but do you realize that it gives you card disadvantage? FOW is only good in a deck that plays insignificant blue cards like brainstorm, ponder, stifle, etc. that it doesnt matter that you are pitching a card. Look at Thresh for example, the situational counterspells and cantrips are prime cards to pitch to FOW. In Aluren Fow is either pitching a tutor like intuition, brainstorm or a creature needed to combo. All the other cards are there to support FOW and are otherwise subpar. Chain of vapor for example is only really good vs certain decks that play CotV, Trinisphere, Humility, etc. and otherwise piss poor fodder to FOW. Why not play thoughtseize, and instead of a second blue card needed to be pitched to FOW, you pay one mana and one life? This also eliminates shackles on the deck to support FOW and lets you play less blue cards. If anything I would play FOW in the sideboard against combo where it really shines. If you want to play FOW play the non imperial recruiter version because that is where it is really good against. and btw this forum needs to be split, badly.

Mana base wise, how do you play your spells? with so many basics you are losing turns to manascrew that you could be going off. But if it works for you good for you. I think if you are going to play so many few lands than it is good you are playing basics.

And about aluren being good, yes, it is good versus any deck that tries to play magic. It has a week spot for decks like burn and TES that have no interaction. The reason it is not played more is that people cant get the cards. This deck plays duals, thoughtseizes goyfs, recruiters, fetches, all the expensive cards so basically you need to have been playing thresh and then somehow picked up some recruiters.

For what to sideboard, that is hard because you have some unusual sb choices. What decks were you wondering on how to sideboard?

I was looking into faerie macabre as a sideboard wish target and every time i played it, it seemed underpowered. You can try it but it did not work for me.

Honestly Leyline of the Void is such a good Antigraveyard card, i can't see playing it over any other graveyard card in an open environment. While other cards are good vs certain decks, Leyline is decent or the best sb graveyard card usually. For instance against aggro loam, it can prevent goyf, vore, and crusher from getting big, while shutting of loam and wasteland recursion. compared to extirpate that gets rid of life from the loam, this is not the same.

[Davetradint]

I took out the proctor before the tournament, shaman works fine.

I had no problems getting 4 mana into the table, but I'd prefer having 22 lands instead of 21... Wall of roots: I kept one and added Tarmogoyf, as the mana base is stable, believe it or not, I buy time by playing the goyfs, and as i said, had no problems in getting the four manas...

The second harpy is, as you guessed, for pitching in an emergency case, I had to pitch my lonely harpy sometimes and it screwed me.

FoW is card disadvantage or stopping an opponent's bomb. You will not always have the Chain of Vapor in hand so as to bounce disgusting things, sometimes they go first and you have your nice thoughtseizes doing nothing, that's card disadvantage! I really prefer having 3 fow not to counter everything, but to stop THE card which is preventing me from winning. I played the thoughtseize version and the fow version and sometimes Seizes are not enough...And Chain of Vapor is not used only to bounce opp's things, you can bounce your critters too...

As I imagine, you are playing the 3-4 therapy + 3-4 thoughtseize version. IMHO there is a misunderstanding of the deck. Playing so aggresively does not improve the deck's performance. You cannot run as fast as other decks, although I think that rec. version is a little faster than the other one. I started playing that too, but my local meta differs from the one that usually meets Koizumi, the japanese guy who made several top8s with that version. I don't say seizes are bad, on the contrary, they are really good, but the situations i usually find here made me took them out and add the fows in.

I also found that replacing wall of blossoms for raven familiar made the deck less dependant to the recruiter engine, although it's the axis of the deck. It's pitchable, helps you digging, evades chalices @2....therefore I am playing some kind of hybrid deck.

Basic lands are a must! I'd like to see your list, friend! Play no basics and get paired to a Dragon Stompy.. Let's see what happens if they play turn 1 Magus or Moon...and of course, without Fow...Losing to such things is unaffordable, if you go first and are able to take their magus, ok. But I don't like luck playing such an important role in the deck.

About Leylines, I've been using them for a long time and they work great, but I gave a try to the Extirpates and they also worked fine. I agree leylines are bomb against ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, loam, waste-lock, also Ichorid...anyway, both are okay, BUT leylines force you to mulligan in search of the opening hand with it. Both cards are good, but sometimes one has to choose...

Maybe the thread shoul be splitted into the raven+harpy version, the recruiter version and maybe some hybrid, but i think I'm the only geek doing this at the moment...

[Obfuscate Freely]

Maybe the thread shoul be splitted into the raven+harpy version, the recruiter version and maybe some hybrid, but i think I'm the only geek doing this at the moment...
I've been testing a build with both Familiar and Recruiter. I see this as a superior alternative to running Living Wish, and it baffles me to see that you run all three of these cards.

Here's my list:
//16
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
3x Cabal Therapy
3x Intuition
2x Chain of Vapor

//4
4x Aluren

//7
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Wall of Blossoms
1x Wall of Roots

//12
4x Imperial Recruiter
2x Dream Stalker
2x Raven Familiar
1x Man-o-War
1x Cavern Harpy
1x Eternal Witness
1x Spike Feeder

//21
4x Wooded Foothills
3x Polluted Delta
1x Windswept Heath
3x Tropical Island
3x Bayou
2x Taiga
3x Forest
1x Island

Basically, it's Toad's old list, replacing four Walls with Tarmogoyfs, and replacing two Harpies and two Familiars with Recruiters. It's certainly possible to cut the Famliars entirely, in order to fit in more (less mana-intensive) search, or more Walls, or something else that would help the deck survive prior to going off.


Why, again, should the topic to be split? Adding Recruiter doesn't change the deck's strategy at all.

[Michael Keller]

Are the four Recruiters really necessary? I've seen some lists run three and the extra Harpy. They do, however, give you consistency as a tutor effect.

[FoolofaTook]

I've been toying with Gravelgill Duo and Cavern Harpy in an Aluren shell. It's not really optimized but it is a three card combo (Aluren/Gravelgill Duo/Cavern Harpy) gives you an infinite beater with fear at the cost of nothing additional as it's going off.

The problem is it's a two turn process. Turn one of the process you drop Aluren during your turn and Gravelgill Duo at the end of theirs and then turn two you just keep playing the Cavern Harpy and bouncing it back to your hand until the Gravelgill Duo is big enough to kill.

[IndyTerminator]

I've been toying with Gravelgill Duo and Cavern Harpy in an Aluren shell. It's not really optimized but it is a three card combo (Aluren/Gravelgill Duo/Cavern Harpy) gives you an infinite beater with fear at the cost of nothing additional as it's going off.


Then why not use Spike Feeder to put infinite +1/+1 counters on a creature with evasion if you are that worried about a blocker. Once you go off, you win except in extreme cases. Adding this card to the maindeck does not help your plan with Aluren or without it. Aluren still has problems with winning when you can't get Aluren on the table and playing another crappy creature (without going off) is not going to help that. This is why people have went to Tarmogoyf.

I really don't feel that this thread should not be split between the recruiter and non-recruiter builds. I don't see how it would stimulate discussion about either version.

[Bahamuth]

I've been testing a build with both Familiar and Recruiter. I see this as a superior alternative to running Living Wish, and it baffles me to see that you run all three of these cards.

Here's my list:
//16
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
3x Cabal Therapy
3x Intuition
2x Chain of Vapor

//4
4x Aluren

//7
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Wall of Blossoms
1x Wall of Roots

//12
4x Imperial Recruiter
2x Dream Stalker
2x Raven Familiar
1x Man-o-War
1x Cavern Harpy
1x Eternal Witness
1x Spike Feeder

//21
4x Wooded Foothills
3x Polluted Delta
1x Windswept Heath
3x Tropical Island
3x Bayou
2x Taiga
3x Forest
1x Island

Basically, it's Toad's old list, replacing four Walls with Tarmogoyfs, and replacing two Harpies and two Familiars with Recruiters. It's certainly possible to cut the Famliars entirely, in order to fit in more (less mana-intensive) search, or more Walls, or something else that would help the deck survive prior to going off.


Why, again, should the topic to be split? Adding Recruiter doesn't change the deck's strategy at all.

Why would you run those Chain of Vapor? Do they ever help in the combo? Or are they just there to remove hate? Wouldn't Echoing Truth be better?

Why 2 Blossoms 1 Roots? Isn't Roots more important?

By the way, by adding Goyfs, this deck just became the most expensive legacy deck of all times....

[freakish777]

Why would you run those Chain of Vapor? Do they ever help in the combo?


Yes.

Here's the Scenario:

You tap 3 lands and add a -0/-1 counter to Wall of Roots on turn 4, leaving a blue producing land open, to play Aluren. Play Familiar for free. Familiar into Man-O-War/Dream Stalker/Familiar. (Re)Play Familiar into Chain of Vapor. Play Chain of Vapor with your last blue mana, making some copies by sacrificing lands you don't need. Get 2 or more Familiar comes into play effects.

Sometimes you bounce 3 or 4 of your own guys with :u: and sacrificing some lands. When you do, you win the game (barring Krosan Grip from your opponent).

[Guy I Don't Know]

Chain of Vapor is what pushes the non imperial recruiter version over the edge, when going off if you hit chain of vapor, then it is seldom that you can not find the combo pieces.

[FoolofaTook]

Then why not use Spike Feeder to put infinite +1/+1 counters on a creature with evasion if you are that worried about a blocker. Once you go off, you win except in extreme cases. Adding this card to the maindeck does not help your plan with Aluren or without it. Aluren still has problems with winning when you can't get Aluren on the table and playing another crappy creature (without going off) is not going to help that. This is why people have went to Tarmogoyf.

I really don't feel that this thread should not be split between the recruiter and non-recruiter builds. I don't see how it would stimulate discussion about either version.

The only reason I've been looking at Gravelgill Duo is that it makes for a 2 card combo once Aluren is on the table.

[Guy I Don't Know]

raven familiar + Cavern harpy is a better two card combo. Also imperial recruiter is a one card combo. Gravegill, I can't really see any perks to it.

[Muradin]

I've been trying Obfuscate Freely's list a bit and have to say, that it works out quite well. The recruiters make the Combo much less vulnerable and the goyfs are also quite nice in many situations, as they make you less dependant on Aluren itself. But this list has lost one of the most important aspects of the older Aluren lists: It can't chain walls in the early game and has lost a lot of consistency. I often encounter difficulties at finding 4 Mana to cast Aluren without Wall of Roots and I am really missing Wall of Blossoms because they used to provide important card advantage and smoothed out our draws very well combined with the ravens.
Furthermore I feel like if the Manabase has seriously been hurt by the addition of the Taigas to cast the Imperial Recruiters pre combo.
Nevertheless I think, that especially in matchups like ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh playing Recruiter for Eternal Witness or Wall of Blossoms can be a really good alternative to stall until you can combo off safely.

So in my oppinion the Recruiters are really good in this deck and should be played if they are not too expensive for you.
But I still have mixed feelings about Goyf. On the one hand he provides you with a secondary game plan and makes you less dependant on resolving Aluren, but on the other hand he takes away a lot of conssitency, especially as you are supposed to play the control deck in some matchups and walls are much better at helping you to do so than Goyf.

Then I'd still have another question concerning the matchup anlysis in the opening post. It says, that Landstill is very favorable for Aluren, but the modern Landstill builds are all boarding some kind of graveyard removal, like Extirpate, Leyline of the Void or something else.
This makes the plan of therapying their disruption away muss less effective, especially combined with giving them good targets for their otherwise next to useless removal in the form of goyfs. A Landstill player won't sword a Wall of Blossoms/Roots, but definitely a Goyf. This takes away a lot of precious ways to flashback Cabal Therapy as I often don't want to "waste" my goyfs for this purpose. Is the Landstill matchup still favorable taking all those issues into account?
Should Goyf really find a place in Aluren or is it just the normal "hey, let's fit some goyfs into this deck.trend?"
Imho he simply takes away too much consistency, but I am not sureconcerning that.

[Guy I Don't Know]

I had wall of blossoms in my deck for a long time and then this weird thing happened. They would play a goyf at 4/5 and attack. What should i do? block with wall of blossoms? After switching to goyfs, instead of being on a 5-6 turn clock, They would have to remove the goyf before they could attack with their on goyf. This is the main reason that I play goyf over wall of blossoms, goyf can block the most commonly played creature, goyf, all the time. Having a wall of blossoms that cannot block the most played creature seems subpar. You may think that wall of blossoms is better because it draws a card, but what you have to take into consideration is what goyf would do in the best and worst case scenarios. In the worst case scenario is that goyf gets swords to plowshares (they could get smothered or demised but I would think that stp is a more representative case) and you gain life, then they attack you to bring you back to your original lifetotal. so you fog for a turn and get to draw one more card. Wall of blossoms is played, you draw a card, and then they swords it and beat for damage. Net gain is that you draw an extra card and take a turns worth of damage. The net gain is the same in life and cards for both if killed immediately with swords. In best case scenario goyf blocks goyf indefinitely and you therefore stem damage and are able to draw multiple cards. If goyf is big enough to kill wall of blossoms, best case scenario is that wall of blossoms draws an extra card and blocks a turn of damage. I personally would like to block more than a turn of damage so I choose Tarmogoyf, but if you think wall of blossoms will be big enough to block creatures and survive, play wall of blossoms because you end up with one extra card.


Also, for recruiter version i have taken out cabal therapy. it is bad I hit with cabal therapy usually 80% of the time and i would still not play it(people give away their hands by how they play and who doesnt hold force of will for alluren when playing for alluren). you dont have familiars (and in my case blossoms) to sacrifice so their use is diminished. Boarding in Shushers versus them is a good idea vs landstill. It wastes there time and in the late game, only Krosan grip can stop unless you have duress and then if they have stp it gets tricky, anyways, board in shusher and dont worry about therapy, you never have more than 1-2 creatures out usually anyway, and sacrificing them isnt fun. I must admit that the matchup is one of the only times that i would like to have cabal therapy.

[FoolofaTook]

Should Goyf really find a place in Aluren or is it just the normal "hey, let's fit some goyfs into this deck.trend?"
Imho he simply takes away too much consistency, but I am not sureconcerning that.

That's an excellent question.

I'll bet it applies to a bunch of decks that have added Goyf just because he was so good. Maybe even Threshold.

[honz]

The reason we play goyf, is because without playing it we have no answer to an opponents goyf. There is no cheaper and more versatile spell in these colors that can conistantly answer tarmogoyf other than tarmogoyf. Its just an added bonus that you can go aggro against certain decks, and that goyf eats hate like none other.

[Cacks]

I agree that the goyf is a real problem with this deck. Aluren has historically tended to crush aggro decks as the 4 - 8 wall package stopped the large part of their offence and gave you many turns to set up. With the 'goyf, however, the walls are often relegated to mere chump blockers. So I can see the logic of adding goyfs, as little more than an overcosted (in a $ sense) but bigger wall, plus potential plan B.

[Guy I Don't Know]

i have won countless games where they were focused on the combo, they thoughtseized, then fetched a few times, and then extirpated alluren and with the life loss, goyf made short work of them... when you think about it, thresh only plays 4 goose 4 goyf and maybe an enforcer or something, you can have more beaters than that... the only thing i am wondering right now is what is better, 3 goyfs and 4 wall of roots or 4 goyfs three wall of roots...

[adrieng]

I am testing aluren with survival of the fittest into it, and it has worked very well for me. It improves matchup with discard, aggro decks, threshold etc...
I am now playing also a 3 off krosan grip maindeck I have found them more useful than chain of vapor, in particular against counterbalance and humility,
with survival you don't need anymore chain of vapor to combo off you have walls to make mana and tutoring for the combo.

Here is the list I am playing :


4 wall of roots
4 raven familier
4 tarmogoyf
2 man'o war
2 cavern harpi
1 eternal witness
1 shriekmaw
1 genesis
1 squee
1 spike feeder

4 brainstorm
3 cabal therapy
4 aluren
4 survival of the fittest
3 krosan grip

3 bayou
3 tropical island
4 wooded foothils
4 polluted delta
5 forest
1 swamp
1 island


the side is in progress

4 EE
4 blue elemental blast
2 Yixlid
2 tormod's crypt
1 cabal therapy
1 wonder ( against humility+manlands)
1 trygon predator

[Dark_Cynic87]

I hate to say it, but I don't know if you guys forgot or what, but back in the day Aluren players used that little guy that cost 2B, had flying and echo, and when it came into play, you destroyed target non-b, non-art. critter. Is this no longer acceptable? I mean, you can even bounce it for multiple uses and to keep from having to pay the echo. It's obviously worse without Aluren, but I'd say it's cheaper than tossing in 4 goyf-walls. With Aluren it's free mass removal.

Also, why is the brain freeze win not used anymore? I put the deck down for 1 damn year and everything goes back to before. I need an explanation. I was un-needle-able storm turn 4 with Force of Will back-up protection, and some of you even run Cabal Therapies in conjunction. I don't get it.


By the way, by adding Goyfs, this deck just became the most expensive legacy deck of all times....

Pce,

--DC
Actually, I think old IGGY POP lists had this beat...4x Grims, 8x fetches, Several blue fetches, Intuitions, LED's, and more...I think it's pretty close though, Recruiters are a bitch.

[Nonex]

Well, while Bone Shredder is still good, the point of Tarmogoyf is that it can win the game if the board is empty and it attracts all sorts of creature removal and countermagic that would otherwise hinder the combo.

Brain Freeze is unneeded since you can just win by attacking with infinite/infinite creatures and most decks run out of options when you reach infinite life. Besides Merrow Witsniper (http://magiccards.info/scans/en/mt/40.jpg) is just an example of a card you can use to win through milling without any extra mana.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Brain Freeze: You can win instantly, though. You don't have to swing or wait a turn. When Aluren hits, you can win that turn. At instant speed. In response to them winning (this would only really be against Solidarity) even.

Also I'll again point out that it's not a needleable win-con. Stifle, but you can counter it/Therapy it, or you can Eternal Witness infinitely to get it back.

Also, keeping walls instead of Goyfs lets you drop Aluren turn 3, not turn 4.

Also, I don't play the Recruiter version, as that's rediculously high priced for a creature. Goyf would be a better investment, especially at less than 1/2 the price per playset. I'm fine with familiars and intuitions. Props to those with Recruiters, I'm not one of them.

Pce,

--DC

[Nonex]

Brain Freeze: You can win instantly, though. You don't have to swing or wait a turn. When Aluren hits, you can win that turn. At instant speed. In response to them winning (this would only really be against Solidarity) even.

Also I'll again point out that it's not a needleable win-con. Stifle, but you can counter it/Therapy it, or you can Eternal Witness infinitely to get it back.

I still don't get your point. Pithing Needle usually names Cavern Harpy and you need Chain of Vapor or Pernicious Deed to get rid of that and go off, that includes storm for Brain Freeze. If you are in a situation where you can make infinite storm for Brain Freeze, you can play and bounce and replay and rebounce Merrow Witsniper instead and get the same effect without worrying about Stifle nor Pithing Needle and without having to save :1::u: first. But even then I would like you to explain what's so bad about having to wait 1 turn once you go off when the only decks still unaffected by the combo are the ones that kill through milling and you can win them by abusing Cabal Therapy.


Also, keeping walls instead of Goyfs lets you drop Aluren turn 3, not turn 4.

If you are worried about dropping Aluren sooner than it should, play 4 Tinder Wall and you'll drop it turn 2. Apart from that I think everyone play Wall of Roots, because it's just needed to get infinite mana for Spike Feeder and while Aluren is not in play it means extra mana.

The problem with Tarmogoyf is that neither Wall of Roots nor Wall Blossoms can contain it since it eventually becomes 5/6 or more, that's when your own Tarmogoyf becomes necessary. It's also good against aggro since it serves as an additional Wall as well, and able to kill creatures it blocks.

[Toad]

I kept working on Aluren after the release of Future Sight. Tarmogoyf really changed a lot of things for Aluren.

Tarmogoyf started out as a great thing for Aluren. With Aggro-Control being able to drop a 2/3 by Turn 2, or 3/4 by Turn 3 instead of tiny 1/1 guys, Goblins was pushed out of Legacy, and "Mono" Black Aggro-Control was also severaly weakened. Goblins was a slightly favourable matchup for Aluren but Goblins could always win the way Goblins sometimes do with a first turn Goblin Lackey, and Black based Aggro-Control was basically an auto loss for Aluren. Nevertheless, Tarmogoyf also meant Wall of Roots and Wall of Blossoms were not really enough to delay Aggro-Control until Aluren could go off protected.

The obvious change to Aluren is to add Tarmogoyfs. Aluren is a Legacy deck like all the others : regardless how good your deck actually is, Tarmogoyf will make it better. The real question is about which Wall should be cut to make room for these. Cutting Wall of Blossoms removes some card draw, and cutting Wall of Roots removes a combo component as well as a mana fixer. Wall of Roots really shined against Goblins (Rishadan Ports) and Black decks (Sinkhole), while Wall of Blossoms was good against pretty much everything else, so I ended up cutting Wall of Roots. This modifies the combo part though, as you lose a way to go infinite. That barely modifies the Control matchup. Before Tarmogoyf, Control had to use their Swords to Plowshares on your Walls or else Cabal Therapy would simply wreck them, and it still does. After Tarmogoyf, they have to use their Swords for Tarmogoyf, but actually need to spend ressources to found these. If they focus on Goyf, you combo off, otherwise you kill with Goyf. This turns Aluren into a true Control-Combo-Aggro deck (see Bomberman for example), and winning with Goyf happens fairly often.

1 Island
1 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Bayou
4 Tropical Island
6 Forest

1 Essence Warden
1 Eternal Witness
1 "X"
2 Cavern Harpy
3 Man-o'-War
3 Wall of Blossoms
4 Raven Familiar
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Aluren

2 Chain of Vapor
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Intuition
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

The Spike Feeders cannot be used anymore without Wall of Roots enabling infinite mana combo. The Feeder got cut for Essence Warden. This allows the deck to get infinite life very easily with either Man-o'-War or Cavern Harpy, and infinite life pretty much equals winning right now.

Since Man-o'-War becomes a win condition on its own with that change, I was able to cut down another Cavern Harpy, which is great because Cavern Harpy is an ugly card. This card is listed as "X" in the list above, because it can be a lot of things. With Tarmogoyfs, winning using regular beatdown is doable, so you do not really need a dedicated win condition in the deck. This means that slot can be a 4th Wall of Blossoms, for example. I've had good success with Mesmeric Fiend, which is very solid before going off and turns into a win condition on its own too after going off. Rishadan Cutpurse is another option, but is rather weak on its own before you want to win.

Sideboarding is very tricky now. With Goblins out, the Blue Blast plan is not really needed anymore. Nevertheless, with Ichorid and Aggro Loam being the best decks in the format, you need serious weapons against these because these decks are very though matchups. 4 Leyline of the Void seems to be mandatory in the SB. Offalsnout or Heap Doll are other options since they remove Bridge from Below efficiently and can be found using Brainstorm. They are better than Faerie Macabre and Tormod's Crypt. You'll also need Pernicious Deeds, as usual, these are good as a 3-off. Other slots are metagame dependent, I would recommend the 4th Cabal Therapy against Control and a few Blue Elemental Blasts (the remaining Goblins, Countryside Crusher and Devastating Dreams).

Oh, and Tarmogoyf is another reason to stay away from Imperial Recruiter.

[Guy I Don't Know]

wall of blossoms over wall of roots seem subpar because wall of blosoms is rarely big enough to stop tarmogoyf... a tarmogoyf is usually a 4/5 with an instant, sorcery, creature and land in the graveyard... wall of roots can block it but wall of blossoms can not.

[Toad]

Against Threshold variants, Aluren is not going to play spells for a good part of the game. This means that, unless Threshold plays Black for Thoughtseize or Duress, the only card types in graveyards will be Instant, Sorcery and Land (and if Threshold wants to blow Force of Will on a Wall of Blossoms or a Tarmogoyf, fine for me). Wall of Blossoms is good at dealing with 3/4 Tarmogoyfs. Engineered Explosives will change the deal in the end, and even there a Wall of Blossoms is still double Time Walk when facing a 4/5 Tarmogoyf. This along with Man-o'-War was enough to warrant the inclusion of Wall of Blossoms over Wall of Roots. This is good since Wall of Blossoms is better than Wall of Roots in pretty much every single other matchup.

[honz]

I would really advise against playing essence warden. Even if you don't play wall of roots, i would still go with spike feeder. The fact is, chalice of the void is a very common card, and setting it at 1 is the automatic play 90% of the time. You have no MD answer to this (short of FoW), and your sideboard only has 3 deeds. If their chalices are in the side, you may not even think to bring in the deeds.

I do agree that wall of blossoms is better. I love the necropotence combo, and the ability to draw into what you need. Since i do run the feeder, i use 2 blossoms, 1 roots. The roots does act as an extra land, at the very least, and has a decent sized body. I have been happy with it as a singleton.

My list is pretty much the same as toads. In that x slot, i would suggest running a 3rd wall of blossoms, or a singleton dream stalker. Stalker is big enough to block most goyfs, and its set-back is ussually an advantage for the deck. Re use all your utility creatures, replenish a wall of roots, or bounce a land if you missed a land drop. Stalker also acts as a 4th man-o-war when going off, which is nice when you only have 2 harpy. Most importantly, stalker allows you to play around an opponent's deed. In the land-still MU, this is important, as they can easily force a deed onto the board before you combo off. Normally, you would have to try to force a chain of vapor through, with stalker you can just bounce all your things (including aluren) back into your hand, in response to deed's activation. You only end up loosing a man-o-war, or something equally useless.

I never tried mesmeric fiend, does it really have an effect as a 1-of?

In regards to the sideboard, where are the diverts? I have really loved this card, as it is great against counters, discard, and land destruction. Also, leyline has always been terrible for me. You can't honestly expect to mull into leyline, and still have a playable hand with this deck. I would run extirpate over leyline, offalsnout, doll, crypt, and macabre. Extirpate is also useful in the combo and control MUs.

Toad, have you looked into lim-dul's vault at all? The life loss seems kinda trivial compared to the huge advantage you get from it. The only real problem, is its casting cost. A 1-2 land swing would solve that. I have really liked it in the little testing i have done, with the only problem being a weakened mana base.

[Toad]

Chalice of the Void @ 1 is a concern for the deck, but mainly because it stops Brainstorm, Chain of Vapor and Cabal Therapy. Against the common Ancient Tomb Aggro-Control decks packing Chalice of the Void, if you manage to drop Aluren out, you will usually go Necropotence with Wall of Blossoms and Raven Familiar in order to drop a few Tarmogoyfs out, return their fat guys home with Man-o'-War recursion and use Force of Will to stop these if needed. Then you win through standard beatdown. You would need a bit of life to do so efficiently, but this is still a very solid B-plan when facing Chalice of the Void. Tarmogoyf really opened a lot of options for Aluren, and Chalice of the Void @ 2 is much more problematic (fortunately, Chain of Vapor works fine there). Pernicious Deeds come in pretty much all the time.

Mesmeric Fiend is just here for situations where you do not feel safe passing the turn after going off (very unlikely), as it allows you to Mind Twist the opponent. Its advantage over other cards is that it is not dead before going off, it will act as another Cabal Therapy if you want to clear Force of Will, and will then make your real Therapies better.

SB is still pretty random. I'm not sold on Leyline of the Void either, which is why I mentionned Heap Doll or Offalsnout. Extirpate works fine too.

I do not like Lim Dul's Vault. UB is indeed a serious concern, as well is the card loss off it. I'd run the 4th Intuition over Lim Dul's Vault if I had room for that, or even an Impulse or the old Chord of Calling tech we had at GP Lille.

[Guy I Don't Know]

cotv for 1 is a joke, at least forme cuz i huse recruiters and have auriok champion... cotv for 1? ok ill gain a lot of life... mesmeric fiend seems excessive seeing how you can therapy and mindtwist their hand also.

[Vetinari]

How can Mesmeric Fiend Mind Twist (assuming x > 1) an opponent. Won't they get their card back after each bounce (returning to hand does trigger "leaves play" trigger, doesn't it)?

[Hopo]

How can Mesmeric Fiend Mind Twist (assuming x > 1) an opponent. Won't they get their card back after each bounce (returning to hand does trigger "leaves play" trigger, doesn't it)?
Yes, it does trigger the leaves play -ability. But if you bounce it while CIP-trigger is on the stack, the "leaves play" ability triggers and resolves first. After that, the CIP-trigger resolves, removing a card from opponent's hand from the game and the stack is now empty.

[Toad]

You respond to the come into play trigger by returning the Mesmeric Fiend to your hand. This way the leave play trigger will resolve before the card is actually removed from their hand and the cards you remove afterwards will never be returned.

Imperial Recruiter was bad before Tarmogoyf, and Tarmogoyf made it worse. Auriok Champion is pure trash. Playing cards which are only good when you have won already seems like a poor concept in a Control deck. And if you want to play a Combo deck, why bother with a 2GG Enchantment when you could play a 2BB Storm Sorcery instead?

[FoolofaTook]

And if you want to play a Combo deck, why bother with a 2GG Enchantment when you could play a 2BB Storm Sorcery instead?

Aluren seems very combo-ish to me on most finishes. I do play Brain Freeze though and a lot of the finishes are just: lay down Aluren, drop Cavern Harpy and pick it back up about 20 times, play Brain Freeze. The infinite life loop usually takes longer to setup so it requires more control.

[Toad]

The combo finish does not mean the deck is not a Control deck by heart. The overall synergy between Raven Familiar and Cavern Harpy is too slow to be fit into a real Combo shell. Dark Ritual and Lion's Eye Diamond exist for this.

[FoolofaTook]

The combo finish does not mean the deck is not a Control deck by heart. The overall synergy between Raven Familiar and Cavern Harpy is too slow to be fit into a real Combo shell. Dark Ritual and Lion's Eye Diamond exist for this.

I run a ton of cantrips to find the pieces and then combo off once I have the answer in hand. There are so many ways to combo that the average opponent can't respond adequately in many cases, even if they have sideboarded in hate against what they saw last time. Usually if the game goes 7 or 8 turns I'm going to lose but one of the combos tends to come out pretty reliably by turn 4 or so. That's why I see this more as a combo deck and less as a control deck. I do play an offbeat version of Aluren but it tends to beat Aggro decks handily, combo decks most of the time and has some trouble against dedicated control. This is the list I've been playing around with.

4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Impulse
3x Intuition
3x Raven Familiar
2x Cavern Harpy
2x Man-o'war
1x Eternal Witness
1x Essence Warden
1x Storm Entity
2x Living Wish
3x Aluren
3x Cabal Therapy
2x Pernicious Deed
2x Chain of Vapor
1x Brain Freeze

4x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand
4x Tropical Island
2x Underground Sea
1x Bayou
1x Volcanic Island
3x Island
1x Forest

Sideboard

1x Raven Familiar
1x Essence Warden
1x Eternal Witness
1x Cavern Harpy
4x Leyline of The Void
4x Extirpate
3x Pithing Needle

[honz]

I have to simply disagree about running essence warden. The decks dropping chalice at 1 are fast aggro decks, capable of direct damage (aggro loam, red 5/3, dragon stompy, faerie stompy). Simply dropping 2-3 goyfs, and 4-5 utility creatures is not going to get you the win. Against these decks, you really need infinite life if you want to win.

I really like stalker, and im not sold on fiend at all. Pre-combo it has little effect unless you have a therapy to accompany it. Having 2 black sources in play at once is rare, making fiend + therapy a 2 turn combo. Post-combo, i can't see it doing anything 30 force of wills can't.

@foolofa, goblins would rip that list a new one. The mana-base also seems shaky. 20 lands in all, with 4 basics, 6 fetches, and the deck having a heavy need for all 3 colors. Also, the claim to combo faster must be a joke when running a 62 card deck, with 3 aluren, 3 ravens, 2 man-o-wars, 2 harpy, and random living wishes. I would suggest you try out a list like me or toad runs, and you will quickly realize some of the shortcomings of yours.

[FoolofaTook]

@foolofa, goblins would rip that list a new one. The mana-base also seems shaky. 20 lands in all, with 4 basics, 6 fetches, and the deck having a heavy need for all 3 colors. Also, the claim to combo faster must be a joke when running a 62 card deck, with 3 aluren, 3 ravens, 2 man-o-wars, 2 harpy, and random living wishes. I would suggest you try out a list like me or toad runs, and you will quickly realize some of the shortcomings of yours.

First of all it's 60, not 62.

Secondly, have you never run a deck with 12 real cantrips and 6 more pseudo-cantrips? Believe me when I tell you that finding things is not a problem at all. Goblins is a 50/50 match, actually a bit better because they often can't resist the urge to try to control the mana with Rishadan Ports and the cantrips dig for more of it faster than they can shut it down. This creates a silly number of extra early turns which they can't afford to give up because they are going to wind up with me at infinite life or trying to chump block a 50/50 Storm Entity sooner than they realize.

[Guy I Don't Know]

Goblins should be an easy matchup, not a 50/50 because they only have four wastelands and 4 ports for disruption. Ok, maybe if the play earwig squad it could get messy if he resolves, but other than that, it should be easy. Test the different variations and see what one you like the best and play that. At the very least you will be able to play against the other versions of alluren better.

[FoolofaTook]

Goblins should be an easy matchup, not a 50/50 because they only have four wastelands and 4 ports for disruption. Ok, maybe if the play earwig squad it could get messy if he resolves, but other than that, it should be easy. Test the different variations and see what one you like the best and play that. At the very least you will be able to play against the other versions of alluren better.

With my variation goblins speed can be problematic, which is why it's 50/50. I need turn 4 to go off and often turn 5 or even 6. Other aggro themes are much more manageable with the exception of mono-black and BW variants which are ust a bad matchup.

[Nonex]

Dreadstill seems to be a problem if Counterbalance comes into play. Any suggestions? I find 3 Krosan Grip in the sideboard to be almost the only way to go.

[honz]

My mistake, it is indeed 60 cards, however only 18 of them are lands. Between port, sinkhole, bloodmoon, wasteland, stifle, vindicate, mulligans, and mana-screw, i am wondering if you ever have 4 mana on turn 4. I can't see the deeds ever being cast either.

If you think the deck should run more cantrips, that is a reasonable idea. If you want people to take this idea seriously, you need to develope a decent list and present some testing results with that list. Explain some of the pluses and minuses of each list, and the match ups where each does better. Simply posting a janky list and saying it is better will not get any one any where.

Splashing the fourth color (red) in a deck running 18 lands and 0 pseudo-lands, for a card like storm entity is just stupid. Along side the storm entity, you have a random brain freeze. I must point out again that you are running 2 man-o-wars, 2 harpy, 3 aluren, 3 ravens, and 2 random living wishes. Why would you ever run less than 4 alurens in a deck where you are trying to drop aluren as soon as possible?

I suggest you try out toad's list, and you will quickly realize which is better. Fix your mana-base, take out the jank, and come back with an improved list and some testing results.

Dreadstill is a hard matchup. I think the best plan is just to play aggresively, if you can. Use your therapies as soon as you can, and try to drop some creatures to put pressure on their life. Remember that chain of vapor is an amazing card here too. Postboard you have deeds, and extirpate. I have tried 2-3 grips in the board, but i never really liked them. Have you tried extirpates?

[Toad]

I have to simply disagree about running essence warden. The decks dropping chalice at 1 are fast aggro decks, capable of direct damage (aggro loam, red 5/3, dragon stompy, faerie stompy). Simply dropping 2-3 goyfs, and 4-5 utility creatures is not going to get you the win. Against these decks, you really need infinite life if you want to win.

These decks are more Aggro-Control than fast Aggro, and they will usually not play a lot of creatures. If Chalice of the Void for 1 is out - preventing you from casting Essence Warden for example -, the main plan is to get a few Tarmogoyfs out and then use your Man-o'-Wars to return their guys to their hand. Then Force of Will them if needed. This usually works fine. It "simply" demands a tad more life than if you could cast Essence Warden. This is only a real concern Game 1 because of Pernicious Deeds after boarding.

Counterbalance is not a really huge problem for Aluren because of the very diversified mana curve. You need to "test it" whenever you feel like doing something relevant. Krosan Grip is a bad solution to Counterbalance IMHO, it is too narrow and the SB slots are very precious. Pernicious Deed is great and versatile. Engineered Explosives works fine too and perfectly plays around Counterbalance if you ramp to 4+ lands.

[Maveric78f]

Counterbalance is not a really huge problem for Aluren because of the very diversified mana curve. You need to "test it" whenever you feel like doing something relevant. Krosan Grip is a bad solution to Counterbalance IMHO, it is too narrow and the SB slots are very precious. Pernicious Deed is great and versatile. Engineered Explosives works fine too and perfectly plays around Counterbalance if you ramp to 4+ lands.

I'm not convinced about this. Countertop is very difficult to control as soon as they find a 2CC card on top. Chalice@2 is a real problem actually, if you can't find chain of vapor, countertop@2 is even more since it can be at 1 at the same time. It may be too slow or too narrow to justify a SB slot other than deed, but don't say it's not a "huge problem".

[Toad]

With Counterbalance locked on a 2CC (on Chalice at 2), you can still use Chain of Vapor, Cabal Therapy, Raven Familiar, Force of Will, Aluren and Man-o'-War. This is really all you need if you are attempting to go off. Blocking the 2CC slot is actually pretty useless unless you can do this before a Tarmogoyf is out and apply serious pressure afterwards. They also need to keep that 2CC on top, so they need Sensei's Divining Top too. All these parameters make me say that Counterbalance is definitly not a huge problem.

Counterbalance and Chalice @ 3 are a completely different story, but these should not happen to often.

[Guy I Don't Know]

i personally have found pernicous deed too vulnerable and slow for the format... against the decks with disruption and that are quick, It is too slow, and the slower decks usually pack stifle or counterspells to deal with it. I have just been playing vexing shusher versus dreadstill because they usually only have four outs versus him (maybe more but not many) and he protects the combo pretty well. Also I have found versus dreadstill the easiest plan is to board out goyfs and wall of roots because they can't block nought effectively and get countered by counterbalance. I then board in more three drops like uktabi orangutan and such... it seems to work and the matchup does not turn out to be too bad. I have only played versus Uw dreadstill and the Ug dreadstill seems more of a problem with goyfs in there.

[FoolofaTook]

My mistake, it is indeed 60 cards, however only 18 of them are lands. Between port, sinkhole, bloodmoon, wasteland, stifle, vindicate, mulligans, and mana-screw, i am wondering if you ever have 4 mana on turn 4. I can't see the deeds ever being cast either.

When you have somebody actively trying to kill your mana base you're going to lose most of those games with the standard Aluren lists as well as my list. That's one of the few bad matchups for the archetype.

Mulligans happen very rarely, because like Threshold there are very few opening hands that don't look manageable and like Threshold there are very few nuts draws to fish for. The average opening hand in this list is 2 cantrips, 2 land and 3 of something else, that's almost always playable.

18 lands is what the list I put up supports. Go ahead and add a few lands to it and then look at your average hand on turn 4 and realize you are long on lands most of the time.

I realized after I posted the list that it really did not belong here and started a thread down in the New and Developmental decks forum. The use of cantrips and the flow of play that that creates makes this too different from the standard Aluren decks for comparisons to really work well.

[Guy I Don't Know]

very true, I play 23 lands, that isn't a minor thing. maybe a difference in lands by 2, but 5 ?!?! best of luck foolofatook wherever you post.

On another note, what are good sb cards vs dreadstill, i was thinking choke (yes ik i play islands) but they most likely side in krosan grips anyway so it would not be that helpful. Im currently playing shusher but that guy doesnt stop grip and gets shackled or stp a lot. Ik it sounds bad, but what about mind shatter? could that work?

[Davetradint]

I'm playing the deck again within a couple of weeks and was considering using some slots in the SB for graveyard hate but...
which one would you use, guys? Leylines or Extirpates? Do Faerie macabre or offalsnout deserve any slot?

I've added 4 goyfs t the deck, so i'm less afraid of opp's extirpates than before, anyway extirpate seems being nice, but leylines are so painful for them...

[honz]

I use extirpates in my board over leyline. There are a couple reasons for this. Mainly, leyline is essentially useless unless it is in your opening hand. Since this deck doesn't mulligan too well, trying to mull into leyline is a deathwish. Hardcasting leyline is another problem. This deck will have a hard time getting BB on turn 4, like it or not. So, if you are going to hard cast it, we're talking about turn 5-7. By this time you will have already lost against many of the decks you want leyline against (aggro loam, survival, ichorid, combo, other loam decks, thresh). Decks like loam, survival, and ichorid can also get rid of leyline very easily, as leyline is a common problem for them.

Extirpate has that unexpected quality that allows it to hit things that your opponent doesnt expect to be hit. With leyline, they can simply play around it. Extirpate also can come in against control decks, hitting force of will, counterspell, StP. Extirpate and therapy are a sick combination as well.

[Guy I Don't Know]

i use leyline of the void but only side it in versus dredge and RBG Loam for the most part. Id rather play a different card but i found the Loam matchup very hard without it. You really want to have graveyard disruption before the game begins, and you have it much later than turn 3, it doesn't even matter. Thats why i mulligan into leyline or keep a turn 3 win hand (unless i have an unusual keepable hand). The reason i can see no alternative to leyline at the present is that the main function of leyline is to slow the deck down, if you do so, then you can combo off. Versus RGB Loam, leyline is the best because it counteracts countryside crusher, and tarmogoyf. CC is just a 3/3 and tarmogoyf doesnt get that big, and you can control how big he becomes. Also, with leyline, without access to lftl the deck can run out of gas very quickly. This was the main reason I play leyline, you draw it, you win... even if they deal with it, you have a lot of time. tormod;s crypt and extirpate did nothing for me because they did not stop the big creatures beating me down and they still had the option of devastating dreams for 4 and keeping their guy. Against Dredge, i don't see how you can say leyline of the void is bad because they are prepared for it... The reason that they are prepared for it is that it crushes them, they can't do anything until they draw chain of vapor or ray of revelation. Other options like crypt are not long lasting and they more cards against (needle) and extirpate is not a autowin because you may have extirpated a card like bridge from below, but they still can beat you down pretty handily, especially on the back of disruption via cabal therapy. I don't know if you ever did this, but going first against dredge with leyline of the void and a discard spell is game over (well technically they could have chain of vapor off the top). Keep in mind that metas vary and a certain card may be better for your meta but leyline is far superior in mine.


on a different note, i am playing imperial aluren and have living wish, vs dreadstill i am trying a sideboarded maze of ith. they do not have many creatures and this card can be a pain. wasteland is very good versus it though and i already have uktabi orangutan in the side. can anyone clarify the difference between nought decks and thresh, is just one card, nimble mongoose, and a few more trickbind? Not many people play it in my area saying it is a bad deck and they rather vomit than play it, but that makes it hard to test.

[Davetradint]

The Maze of Ith sounds good, I think I do not use properly my SB for my living wishes, but most of the time I'm only getting the 4th Recruiter, sometimes a Witness and the least, a Boneshredder... I should include a Maze, but I feel my slots are really precious right now:
1 Imperial Recruiter
1 Eternal Witness
1 Boneshredder
1 Maze of Ith (I copy your idea, sorry :P)
1 More Wish targets?
4 Extirpate (I don't expect many Aggro loams and maybe 1-2 Dredge)
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Divert (funny thoughtseizes and therapies)

Sometimes I feel the SB Witness is somehow useless, except if you are fighting some nasty war and need to reuse cards....

What about painters? Can Aluren side something in to stop them or gain some time?

[Guy I Don't Know]

play a uktabi orangutan or viridian shaman in the board... it can be wished for and if you know they are siding in needles you can put it in the mainboard g2 and g3 so you can still combo off. Is divert really that good? I never even considered putting that in, because i am more concerned of them playing counterbalance or having krosan grip, i play 7 discard spells main (4 thoughtseize, 3 duress) so you can take their discard if necessary going first and they would be able to make you discard anyway going second.

These are some of my wish targets:

Stern Proctor
Uktabi Orangutan
Vexing Shusher
Maze of Ith
City Of Traitors
Boneshredder
Eternal Witness
Imperial Recruiter

I sideboard these cards a lot in certain matchups where the card is good versus a deck ,but i would not wish for it.


I have tried pernicious deeds in the past and have been dissatisfied with them. They would usually get stifled or be too slow, or it would not be synergistic with the rest of the cards and I would lose because I was not focusing on comboing off.

How do you deal with counterbalance and them having the stifle for deed? Stifle is already good versus you because they can stifle imperial recruiter.

Ive been searching for a sideboard card that deals with the these cards, Krosan Grip , Stifle, Force of Will, Counterbalance. I have been playing Vexing Shusher, but they kill it or have a hand of grips and stifles. What do you think of sideboarding in the abyss versus thresh? they have to deal with it sometime or you can sit there all day and sculpt the perfect hand.

[Davetradint]

I have exchanged my viridian shaman for a harmonic sliver.
I never played the shaman pre-aluren because I always had somethign better to play (or more necessary, i.e: intuition) so I would always use it post-aluren, and then...if it doesn't need to be played using mana, why not using sliver, which is superior given these conditions?

Maze of Ith looks like unexpected tech against dreadnoughts, still have to test it, and the othe cards you mention, to be honest, I just get the recruiter most of the time.

Do you play without Fows? There was some discussion about them and I stand as pro-fow, I recommend you to use them (3x). This is the best way of dealing with many things that duresses and therapies cannot. Anyway Krosan Grip must be taken out with therapies. I always name it, because their Fows can be fought and swords are useless when going off (except when they have 2 and are clever).

Counterbalance + SDT is a real pain in the *ss! But most of the time they will free counter your therapies, brainstorms and tarmogoyfs, so you need to focus on dropping aluren with Fow in hand (if you don't pack fows... ¿?), it works for me, as they usually do not have the 4cc there and have to use their fow...

Stifle is really dangerous since we need all our mana and they love to ruin our fetchlands; if they also use them on our recruiters it's hard to go off, but you only need to gather 2 or more combo pieces: more recruiters or stalkers just to bounce and repeat process.

The shusher looks like another swords to plowshares target, but hey! let them waste their swords there, then your goyfs can do the job!

Against ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh I would side in 4 leylines and maybe some duresses. Deeds would clean the way, but the graveyard is, IMHO, the way to deal with it.

Maybe our metas and builds are rather different, I'm afraid I cannot help too much...

[Guy I Don't Know]

i can resolve Aluren pretty easily but i cant win after that because cavern harpy costs 2 mana. Counterbalance counters two mana spells. It might sound counterintuitive, but has anyone tried choke versus thresh? that card they can not deal with and your lands can basically untap anyway except trops and islands.

[Nonex]

The Abyss can't stop Nimble Mongoose, that's its major problem.

IMHO Krosan Grip, Force of Will and Stifle are easy to deal with, just Cabal Therapy is needed and you run Thoughtseize as well. Counterbalance protects them all from discard spells, so the solution must be something against Counterbalance. As Toad pointed out, Engineered Explosives looks like one of the best answers against it. I like Reverent Silence as well, but it will hardly be useful against other decks.

[Davetradint]

What do you all think about Wheel of sun and moon as a sideboard option?
It can stop annoying Extirpates if you target yourself and it stops dredge decks, as well as dilute ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh and aggro loam. The problem is that it does not begin in play as leyline does, and also can be countered/destroyed, plus it would be put into play by second turn...or later.

[honz]

Wheel of sun and moon is actually not a bad idea. I would run wheel over leyline any day. However, i still like extirpate better because it comes unexpectedly, completely removes one piece of their deck, and has value in the control / combo MU.

[FoolofaTook]

Wheel of Sun and Moon can also be cast on yourself to protect against Extirpate and to really screw Brain Freeze over, not to mention it makes Jace Beleren a sad panda.

[Guy I Don't Know]

jace beleren! now i have the answer! I will never be sabotaged again!

If we are looking for two mana cards that do things, we can also look at ground seal seeing how it draws a card but does not stop as much things. I don't know about you, but I am usually already dead by my third turn against ichorid, not to mention they could have a ray in the graveyard by then, it does stop extirpates towards you as long as they haven't gotten aluren into the graveyard yet.

[Davetradint]

As we all agree in decking goyfs, extirpates are a little less annoying, but are still a problem if Aluren hits the grave. The first ideas I had were Research/Development, but it's only useful when your cards are removed, then I thought about including Extirpates too, but in this scenario you have to use baits first.

Is really E.E. better than Deeds? I see the point in the speed it gives, can be played 1 turn earlier or even set at zero, which will blow up tokens and chalices...

[Vetinari]

As we all agree in decking goyfs, extirpates are a little less annoying, but are still a problem if Aluren hits the grave. The first ideas I had were Research/Development, but it's only useful when your cards are removed, then I thought about including Extirpates too, but in this scenario you have to use baits first.
If you are that worried, there is Riftsweeper. At least it's a Grizzly Bear for when you don't need his services.


Is really E.E. better than Deeds? I see the point in the speed it gives, can be played 1 turn earlier or even set at zero, which will blow up tokens and chalices...
To me, it's main strength is it's easier to stick through a Counterbalance, but having said that I usually run a mix of both.

[Davetradint]

Hi,
Played a small tournament today (17ppl), was 1s after 5 round swiss: 3-0-2, but got smacked in quarterfinals by dreadstill. My bad, I lost against countertop lock. Thinking about including shushers as someone suggested. There were a couple of countertops, and we don't see them very often in our little random meta. What do you all usually use to face these cards? Is the Shusher enough?

[Vetinari]

Hi,
Played a small tournament today (17ppl), was 1s after 5 round swiss: 3-0-2, but got smacked in quarterfinals by dreadstill. My bad, I lost against countertop lock. Thinking about including shushers as someone suggested. There were a couple of countertops, and we don't see them very often in our little random meta. What do you all usually use to face these cards? Is the Shusher enough?
Shusher is sort of useless considering how Aluren is an "infinite" deck. What's wrong with Deed or EE?
Besides, you should be able to go off at least partially (or in response to something when they are tapped out. Don't forget, you are the control, it's perfectly reasonable to slow-play it) since Dreadstill doesn't run many 3cc spells (and they need their Trinket Magi making it unlikely they will float them).

[Nonex]

The main problem I see with such board sweepers is that they must be activated. Stifle ruins the day, so we should get rid of them first, but our only way is through Cabal Therapy. Counterbalance works pretty well against CMC 1.

I'm pretty busy these days, but I'll test Engineered Explosives, Krosan Grip, Vexing Shusher and Reverent Silence when possible. Dreadstill versions I see around here are U/G and U/G/r, the red splash is for Fire/Ice and Firespout.

[Guy I Don't Know]

Im playing krosan grip at the moment.It is good at random things like humility and everything... the only thing is that it can be dead sometimes. EE or deed is never really dead. right now i am going to be using grips because yea, EE and deed are good, but you have to resolve them and they usually have FOW and stifle to do that with. Grip is only countered with counterbalance and you can play around it because it is impossible to have a 3 drop on top at all times. Did i mention how good grip is versus landstill? noughts are practically useless so they have only goyfs. The only thing i do not like about grips is that they could be useless, but shrug, what can you do.

[Dark_Shakuras]

Does anyone have the current standard Recruiter and None Recruiter builds?

If you do, would you mind sharing? Posting here, or a PM would be appreciated.

Cheers!

[Davetradint]

There used to be a nice discussion here about Imperial VS non-imperial lists, anyway both decks work in a different way. I have also seen some kind of hybrid decks, using only a couple of Recruiters. Just take your time and read the whole thread, you can get much info! (At least, I did)
My list, played this very Sunday, 45 ppl, 8th after swiss (4-1-1), died to Burn.

Imperial Recruiter:

3x Polluted Delta
3x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
3x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
1x Taiga
4x Forest
2x Island
1x Swamp

4x Aluren
4x Brainstorm
3x Intuition
3x Cabal Therapy
3x Force of Will
3x Living Wish
1x Echoing Truth

4x Tarmogoyf
3x Imperial Recruiter
2x Dream Stalker
1x Cavern Harpy
1x Spike Feeder
2x Eternal Witness
1x Raven Familiar
1x Wall of Roots
1x Vexing Shusher
1x Stern Proctor

Sideboard:
1x Imperial Recruiter
1x Boneshredder
1x Man-o'-war
2x Vexing Shusher
1x Gilded Drake
3x Pernicious Deed
3x Extirpate
3x Krosan Grip

This sideboard somehow stinks, I expected tons of CBs and Dreadnoughts, moreover a shusher could be cut off and some kind of mana fixer/ random utility could be added.

I hope this helps you and we can "reanimate" the thread again!

[Skub]

At the Worlds 2007, Jelger Wiegersma played his own version of Aluren with Imperial Recruiter. His deck can be found here:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=12287

He did very well and I think this is an excellent build. Stable manabase, enough land and a nice wish sideboard. I really like this deck. I agree that the Recruiter build is better after reading the discussion in this tread about Imperial Recruiter vs Cavern Harpy builds. I have only tried other ALuren versions on MWS, with different engines. I like Jelger's deck most because you could play more agressive (due to use of discard) and the use of City of Traitors and Living Wish, which in my opinion make the deck more consistent. I would really like to give this deck a try but can't afford the Imperial Recuiters. Therefore I tried to use the Cavern Harpy engine in his deck:

Lands

3 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Island
3 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
3 Tropical Island
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
3 City of Traitors

Creatures

3 Cavern Harpy
1 Eternal Witness
2 Man-o'-War
4 Wall of Roots
3 Wall of Blossoms
1 Spike Feeder
3 Raven Familiar

Spells

4 Aluren
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Intuition
4 Living Wish
3 Thoughtseize
2 Chain of Vapor

Sideboard

1 City of Traitors
1 Cavern Harpy
1 Eternal Witness
1 Man-o'-War
1 Raven Familiar
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Stern Proctor
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Bone Shredder
4 Leyline of the Void

Of course this deck is much weaker and slower. Not to forgot the problems with Pitching Needles naming Harpy :rolleyes: After reading this thread, my questions are:

1) Does this deck stand a chance?

2) What are the best things to do against a Pitching Needle on Cavern Harpy
or Spike Feeder? (apart from using Chain of Vapor)

3) What are the funniest plays you have had when playing Aluren?

4) What advice can you give to a person trying out Aluren for the first time? (After playing Legacy for quite a while, I would like to try a new deck. Before I have been playing Welder Survival and FEB)

Thanx!

[Nonex]

1) It doesn't seem to be tier 1, but IMHO it's still good enough.

2) Ignore Pithing Needle until you're prepared to drop Aluren, especially if it's naming Spike Feeder. Your list can get rid of it when necessary by Living Wish for Stern Proctor and it also has Engineered Explosives post-sideboard. I run Pernicious Deed maindeck, which is valid as well.

3) After getting infinite life and infinite +1/+1 counters, Man-o'-War targets one of my opponent's creatures and Cavern Harpy returns it to my hand in response to its own ability. I repeat this process until the stack is full of triggered abilities targeting my opponent's creatures. In response I play Chain of Vapor on Aluren, so the targeted creatures will return to the hand after Aluren leaves play. This gets the board rid of chumpblockers since my creatures don't have trample.

Chain of Vapor is great when I haven't found Cavern Harpy yet. I bounce a Raven Familiar, sacrifice a land, make the copy target another creature (Wall of Blossoms, for example) and I replay the Raven Familiar in response to the copy. The copy bounces Wall of Blossoms, I sacrifice a land, the new copy targets Raven Familiar and I replay Wall of Blossoms in response, and so on.

I remember a game against a strage Doran Rock with Extirpates maindeck that removed my Man-o'-Wars from the game (I don't run Living Wish). My graveyard was full of creatures, I had an Aluren, seven lands and a 2/6 Wall of Blossoms (it had two +1/+1 counters from a dead Spike Feeder to block his 5/6 Tarmogoyf) in play, and only a Chain of Vapor and a Cavern Harpy in my hand. I drew Brainstorm, so I played it and I found the second Eternal Witness (I run two). I played it and returned the other Witness from the graveyard, which returned the Spike Feeder (I was at 5 life). Then I sacrificed the Feeder (+4 life) and I started recurring both Witnesses this way. When I ran out of lands, my hand had only an Eternal Witness, while in play there were the Aluren, the 2/6 Wall of Blossoms, a 0/4 one, two Walls of Roots, two 5/6 Tarmogoyfs, the other Eternal Witness, a Raven Familiar and the Cavern Harpy from my hand, and I was at 13 life.

I'm currently trying Gilded Drake. It's cool as a weapon without Aluren in play when you have Cavern Harpy and Man-o'-War to recover the Drake. I've managed to steal a Serra Avenger, a Gaddock Teeg and a Tarmogoyf from another Doran Rock deck this way. It should probably be a sideboard card though.

4) The Imperial Recruiter version is faster, but the non-Recruiter one is stronger. The combo is always safer when Cavern Harpy is the first one to enter play because you play the Raven Familiar in response to the Harpy's triggered ability and then let it resolve; if your opponent tries to kill the Raven you just pay 1 life and replay the Harpy so he or she needs another removal spell. The Recruiter version rarely does this because it usually starts by playing Recruiters and blue creatures that bounce them so Cavern Harpy is the last one to come. You've probably read this already in the thread though.

If you're playing against aggro, your primary goal is to stop early pressure with Walls (1-2 should be enough), then search Aluren with Brainstorm or Intuition. Against control you don't have to hurry up, you can sculpt your hand and reach mid-late game where your discard spells will be the key to get rid of Counterspells and such. Against aggro-control I find that Pernicious Deed wins me the game unless that deck runs Counterbalance and/or Phyrexian Dreadnought. These are very general ideas so Toad's article (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/12726.html) should help you more than this. You should run 3-4 Tarmogoyf by the way.

[TheLion]

Unfortunately I can't answer your questions, but I want to link you to this build (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21650) which recently (yesterday apprently) made place 1 on a large event. Without Recruiters.
I'm always glad to see (kinda rogue!?) creaturebased combo decks like Aluren, Welder Survival and FEB. Seems like we have the same playstyle :-)
Is someone still working on ATS, btw?

Btw: Isn't Trinisphere a bigger issue against Aluren than Needle?

[DireLemming]

I'm currently trying Gilded Drake. It's cool as a weapon without Aluren in play when you have Cavern Harpy and Man-o'-War to recover the Drake. I've managed to steal a Serra Avenger, a Gaddock Teeg and a Tarmogoyf from another Doran Rock deck this way. It should probably be a sideboard card though.
Without Aluren, Harpy can't recover your Drake because it bounces only creatures you control.

[Nonex]

However, the Harpy can recover the Man-o'-War that has just recovered the Drake from your opponent's control. Actually you just need Man-o'-War, the Harpy is necessary only to repeat the process.

[honz]

@ TheLion's link: a fairly standard non-recruiter build, with 2 small changes, and an interesting board. His maindeck runs auriok champion over spike feeder, with a feeder in the board. I can only assume this is used to trick people into playing chalice at 2. Honestly, i think its a poor choice. He also opts to play a 3rd CoV instead of the traditional 3rd man-o-war. I have done the same myself, off and on. Basically it is a meta choice.

A very aggresive SB, clearly aimed at speeding up the deck if needed. I don't agree with the feeder or wall in the board, but the other choices are very solid.

To be honest, i just don't think this deck is competative. In order to win, you have to get the right match-ups and the right draws. My big problem with the deck is that it doesn't have alot of 50-50 match ups, and it just doesn't recover from a poor start. Most the time you will either win big, or loose horribly. That's just my $.02

[georgjorge]

Sorry for not reading the whole thread...I'm currently trying to build a version of Aluren that basically only has Aluren + Recruiter as the combo (with two Dream Stalkers instead of Man-O-War to protect against removal), cutting most of the other creatures for dig and protection. The combo package would only be

4 Aluren
4 Recruiter
2 Dream Stalker
1 Cavern Harpy
1 Spike Feeder
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Eternal Witness (I'd play this one anyway)

You still have a two-card four-mana combo, which is better than Painter (and harder to disrupt), and better than Breakfast as well. Combo-control with Walls is a valid direction, but a build that can consistently find and resolve its combo by turn three or four can often disregard creatures on the other side of the board. Some-one wrote on a previous page


And if you want to play a Combo deck, why bother with a 2GG Enchantment when you could play a 2BB Storm Sorcery instead?

but the answer would be that it doesn't autolose to CBalance/Chalice/Trinisphere, and that you don't need to fill up your deck with Rituals, LEDs and Petals in order to use Aluren.

I'd fill up with something like

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Thoughtseize/Duress
4 Force
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Lim-Duls Vault
2-3 Impulse, or maybe Spell Snares

If you think that exact build has already been discussed before, just point me to the appropriate post or page please.

[Nonex]

Just a minor suggestion; the less things passing through the stack, the better. Since you don't want to have a control side you don't care about Dream Stalker's P/T, right? If that's the case I suggest Arctic Merfolk instead.

[DireLemming]

@georgjorge: provided you aren't overly concerned about Chalice or eating a StP, Essence Warden is much better than Feeder because you can then go [partially] off with just Harpy or Stalker/MoW/whatever.

[Davetradint]

@Nonex: Are we talking about a Recruiter version? If not, please don't take this seriously. The Merfolk kicker issue is nice, but IMHO we are improving nothing, because it won't help against counters or stifles.
If they have to counter something, it will be Aluren. If they don't, maybe the first recruiter. No clever opponent will let you go off until the point that you get the first blue bouncer.
If they want to stop you using Stifle, they will stifle the first recruiter, and if they wait until you get blue bouncer, they can stop the Dreamstalker's ability, but not the merfolk's, BUT then you have to play one of your recruiters again, so they will cast Stifle right then.
From my point of view, although Arctic Merfolk has this kicker cost, I don't see the point in playing them.

@Direlemming: You can win infinite life from Warden, but you win that turn if you get the Feeder. Pre-Aluren Warden can win you a couple of life points, and then be targeted by StP, so your win condition gets removed...
Feeder can be sacrificed to avoid StP, and once you have Aluren, and go off, both can be saved, but only of them pumps your critters...

Just my opinion...

[DireLemming]

To use the pumping ability you need another piece (Wall of Roots) while georgjorge wants a minimal version. And if you want a kill-now mechanism it probably makes more sense to run Ghitu Slinger since you are already red for Recruiter or even Brainfreeze.

[Davetradint]

To use the pumping ability you need another piece (Wall of Roots) while georgjorge wants a minimal version. And if you want a kill-now mechanism it probably makes more sense to run Ghitu Slinger since you are already red for Recruiter or even Brainfreeze.

Totally agree (I pack only 1 Wall of Roots and 4 Tarmogoyf instead of the typical 8x wall config, it takes too many slots and sometimes you can't go off with every card available).

Another issue that worries Georgjorge is playing Pernicious Deeds MD instead of SB, and replacing Walls with these Deeds. Maybe it works great against some decks, but I feel comfortable with a 2nd turn drop like a wall or goyf. Deed will be played 3rd turn or later, and an opponent who opens Mountain, Lackey can give you some headache. This is just some thought, anyway I'd try the Deeds MD too!
So if anyone has any results or experience, please share them!

[DireLemming]

Speaking of kill-now, Conflux has a lovely present for us:

Parasitic Strix 2u
Common
Artifact Creature - Bird
Flying
When Parasitic Strix comes into play, if you control a black permanent, target player loses 2 life and you gain 2 life.
2/2

The only downside compared to Essence Warden is you effectively need Harpy to go off, but than again, Harpy is also the only thing you need. I will be testing a build that eschews Man-o'-War for a playset of Harpies and Essence Warden for this.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Wow...a Tendrils of Agony for Aluren. That looks like it just made the build a lot simpler. It almost makes me want to play this again...

Pce,

--DC

[TheRock]

My initial impression is that the card is complete garbage unless you are willing to run more than one of it because it could then serve as a FoW target at that point. It is a terrible creature on its own because it doesn't even impact the board like Ghitu Slinger (and that card is already bad), Essence Warden (which could give you the turn you need to survive EtW), or Spike Feeder (which can win an Aluren mirror all by itself or block and give you 4 life).

It doesn't help georgjorge's build unless he doesn't have anything in his graveyard, and it still doesn't prevent a non-Recruiter build from being a 3-card combo. Right now, I just don't see it being useful.

[DireLemming]

My initial impression is that the card is complete garbage unless you are willing to run more than one of it because it could then serve as a FoW target at that point. It is a terrible creature on its own because it doesn't even impact the board like Ghitu Slinger (and that card is already bad), Essence Warden (which could give you the turn you need to survive EtW), or Spike Feeder (which can win an Aluren mirror all by itself or block and give you 4 life).
Slinger is bad because it's off-colour and effectively adds another piece to the combo (since you can't count on always being on >10 life). Strix solves both of these problems and as a bonus makes Harpy better by being a gating target.

True, Warden is good against EtW but since EtW is not played anymore that's not much of a plus.

An optimal build with Strix would probably run some black permanents (I'm currently trying Dark Confidants in place of Wall of Blossoms), making it's ability useful even before going off and further reducing the benefits of the options you outlined.

A mute point but since you brought up Aluren mirror, Strix is actually very good as it flies and survives altercation with Raven (making your bears bigger then theirs is the reason why Feeder advantage is key).

[honz]

An optimal build with Strix would probably run some black permanents (I'm currently trying Dark Confidants in place of Wall of Blossoms

Yes, dark confidant goes great in a control type deck that revolves around aluren (4cc), and is supported by force of will (5cc). Better yet, lets remove 1/3 of the anti-creature cards in the entire deck (walls) to make room for confidant.

On a less sarcastic note, confidant does not belong in a deck running FoW and revolving around a 4cc enchantment. Strix, on the other hand, is interesting. I think TheRock is probably right, it would be pretty bad unless you are running 3-4 harpy and 3-4 strix.

Regardless, this deck cannot consistantly win in the current meta, and strix does nothing to change that.

[FoolofaTook]

3 harpies is probably the optimal number and is what many decks run. Strix would give the deck another win con of a different type and really would not be needed as more than a 1-of to add that flavor and potential versatility to the deck. The obvious thing that strix gets around is damage prevention.

All of that said, you still have the problem that honz brought up which is that the problem with Aluren is not that it can't combo off at some point fairly reliably, the problem with Aluren is that it just doesn't do that quickly enough and it's control subset is too weak to maintain the game against tier 1 decks until it's ready to go off.

[DireLemming]

Yes, dark confidant goes great in a control type deck that revolves around aluren (4cc), and is supported by force of will (5cc). Better yet, lets remove 1/3 of the anti-creature cards in the entire deck (walls) to make room for confidant.

On a less sarcastic note, confidant does not belong in a deck running FoW and revolving around a 4cc enchantment.
Pity Sadin didn't get that memo when he build his GP-winning deck (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=8385). But I concede, it wasn't built around a 4cc enchantment, it was build around a 7cc creature, clearly a much more reasonable proposition.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Parasitic Strix is interesting because, like Spike Feeder, it can be used both to gain infinite life and to kill the opponent. This alone sets it apart from suboptimal cards like Ghitu Slinger and Essence Warden.

However, I'm not sure that Strix is better than Feeder. The latter seems like a much better card to draw before Aluren resolves, and you don't have to protect it from Swords to Plowshares (since it can always kill itself).

It's also worth mentioning that Strix' trigger targets, so a Runed Halo or Solitary Confinement stops it. With Spike Feeder, these cards are largely irrelevant (Halo almost completely so) once Aluren lands, because you can gain life, draw your deck, and remove them at your leisure. However, with Strix, an untargetable opponent will prevent you from gaining life, which limits your ability to dig for (and protect) your removal for the enchantments.


There are some important potential benefits to running Parasitic Strix, though. The obvious one is that Aluren, Cavern Harpy, and Strix combine to win immediately, without needing any Raven Familiars, Man-o-Wars, or Walls of Roots. Thus, you can occasionally win games by just drawing that combination of cards, when drawing Spike Feeder instead might do nothing.

The other big advantage to Strix is that Wall of Roots and Man-o-War don't have to be in the deck at all. I'm not saying that cutting either of them is necessarily correct, but I have tested builds of the deck with only a single copy of Wall, and that single copy was only there because it had to be for Spike Feeder to work.

[Wobbles The Goose]

Speaking of funky Conflux cards that seem good in aluren:

Sedraxis Alchemist 2b
Creature - Zombie Wizard Common
When Sedraxis Alchemist comes into play, if you control a blue permanent, you may return target nonland permanent to its owner's hand.
2/2

This other member of the Strix sub-cycle seems great. He combos off as well as hitting halos, confinements, trinisphere, and meddling mage/cannonist.

This deck is certainly getting a lot of interesting toys. It will be interesting to see the builds in Chicago.

[TheRock]

Parasitic Strix is interesting because, like Spike Feeder, it can be used both to gain infinite life and to kill the opponent. This alone sets it apart from suboptimal cards like Ghitu Slinger and Essence Warden.

However, I'm not sure that Strix is better than Feeder. The latter seems like a much better card to draw before Aluren resolves, and you don't have to protect it from Swords to Plowshares (since it can always kill itself).

It's also worth mentioning that Strix' trigger targets, so a Runed Halo or Solitary Confinement stops it. With Spike Feeder, these cards are largely irrelevant (Halo almost completely so) once Aluren lands, because you can gain life, draw your deck, and remove them at your leisure. However, with Strix, an untargetable opponent will prevent you from gaining life, which limits your ability to dig for (and protect) your removal for the enchantments.


There are some important potential benefits to running Parasitic Strix, though. The obvious one is that Aluren, Cavern Harpy, and Strix combine to win immediately, without needing any Raven Familiars, Man-o-Wars, or Walls of Roots. Thus, you can occasionally win games by just drawing that combination of cards, when drawing Spike Feeder instead might do nothing.

The other big advantage to Strix is that Wall of Roots and Man-o-War don't have to be in the deck at all. I'm not saying that cutting either of them is necessarily correct, but I have tested builds of the deck with only a single copy of Wall, and that single copy was only there because it had to be for Spike Feeder to work.

This is not a completely correct statement. There are only three decks in this format that can beat Aluren-Harpy-Warden and this is the main reason why I feel that going to Strix simply isn't worth it unless you are willing to devote extra slots to it. Warden was never the suboptimal card to Feeder because it never required you to play Man-O'-War or Wall of Roots (and Feeder doesn't require Wall either). However, to be completely fair, I always used Eternal Witness and I wouldn't mind cutting it.

I do believe that removing somewhat redundant creatures is a REALLY important advantage though. It's not like we need to be bouncing Meddling Mages all over the place like we did years ago. There is one other advantage to running two life-gaining cards in a non-Recruiter Aluren build - you can get out of tight spots against aggro decks or fast clocks a whole lot more (whether they pitch or have other effects or not). This may make any argument against Strix moot.

Flying in an Aluren mirror does help though - I don't think Warden is going to do that much there. :smile:

[honz]

Pity Sadin didn't get that memo when he build his GP-winning deck. But I concede, it wasn't built around a 4cc enchantment, it was build around a 7cc creature, clearly a much more reasonable proposition

Did you honestly just compare aluren to hulk-flash? This is why i hate people...

On a more productive note, i would advocate running at least 1 sedraxis in the main, in place of a man-o-war. Its ability to bounce halo, counterbalance, needle, confinement, deed, or your own aluren is very relavent. It is also functionaly the same as man-o-war mid combo. In general, man-o-war is better, but there are certainly times you want sedraxis.

After some thought, strix seems better than feeder. Although feeder is better when drawn alone, the extra 2 life it gives you is irrelavent 99% of the time. And if you have the presence of mind to not play strix when your opponent has white, the StP problem is also irrelavent. The ability to randomly win off harpy + strix is tempting. Perhaps running 2 strix would be best. That way you dont worry about StP, and your chances of random wins would double. Just some thoughts.

Has anyone actually been able to put up good numbers with this deck? In my experience: if countertop lands you will loose, decks actively attacking mana bases (loam, TA, tempo thresh) just overwhelm you, and combo randomly beats you a little too much. Has this been everyone else's experience? Can this deck expect to compete in a competative meta? In my eyes, it can't.

[Wobbles The Goose]

Has anyone actually been able to put up good numbers with this deck? In my experience: if countertop lands you will loose, decks actively attacking mana bases (loam, TA, tempo thresh) just overwhelm you, and combo randomly beats you a little too much. Has this been everyone else's experience? Can this deck expect to compete in a competative meta? In my eyes, it can't.

You've got tools to fight all of those matches. One of the main reasons this deck doesn't have better exposure is that the price of Imperial Recruiters significantly hampers it's viability. No one wants to spend $600 on a playset you can use in only one deck. The mana disruption is a valid point, but as there doesn't seem to be a consensus list, there seems to be plenty of room for innovation on that. The decreasing of slots with these new creatures makes chrome mox look better and better.

Given the fact that certain pros already have Recruiters or have better sources for such cards than you average joe, expect this to see considerably more play in Chicago than current tourniment t8's suggest.


I don't really see how a single swords to plowshares does anything to stop you from going off. Cast a Imp Recruiter, fetch an Imp Recruiter, etc, fetch 2x dream thief, fetch harpy, fetch Strix, play strix with harpy gating on the stack, kill them. I guess this doesn't work if you're at 1 life, but otherwise you can just bounce the harpy and replay it if they ever target the strix with swords. You might still want to run an eternal witness, but at least now you don't have too.

[Nonex]

Parasitic Strix looks like Ghitu Slinger to me, it's just on-color and does nothing useful on its own without Aluren. I don't run Slinger and I don't expect to run Strix anytime soon.

About Sedraxis Alchemist, I'll give it a try when Wizards change the rules and lands become the same colors as mana they produce. Until then I think it's useless without Painter's Servant, and I personally don't plan on running either.

I've been testing the non-Recruiter build while trying to strengthen its control role. It looks a little like The Rock now:

4 Polluted Delta
3 Windswept Heath
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Volrath's Stronghold
6 Forest
3 Island
1 Swamp

2 Cavern Harpy
4 Raven Familiar
3 Man-o'-War
1 Spike Feeder
2 Eternal Witness
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Wall of Roots
4 Wall of Blossoms

4 Aluren
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Intuition
2 Chain of Vapor

- Volrath's Stronghold has sinergy with Eternal Witness, Raven Familiar and Wall of Blossoms, although any other creature is equally useful. It helps me a lot if I have to get to late game.

- Sensei's Divining Top is better than Brainstorm in this deck. Apart from the cantrip creatures we need some sort of constant card filtering since we don't get real card advantage. It can also help while comboing.

- I run 10 basics against Wasteland, so Threshold shouldn't be that much of a concern. Devastating Dreams and Sinkhole are still problematic, though. Wall of Roots may partially solve those problems if it manages to resolve and isn't killed too soon.

Suggestions?


combo randomly beats you a little too much

We need to define "combo". Depending on which decks we talk about we could do something.

[Davetradint]

This new creature is, IMHO, better than Feeder, since you no longer need to create the 500/500 critter army. You simply go off and win on the very same turn.

StP is not a problem!!! With one StP the combo cannot be stopped at any time. Wobbles The Goose has explained it (maybe a little too fast), but he's right!!

I'll take out Feeder and try this new guy. And Maybe I'll take out goyfs, since I do no longer need an army to win, and I'll deck in some Pernicious Deeds (georgjorge proposed this idea).

About the other new guy, the one who bounces permanents, it's nice too, but more conditional than a stern proctor, which I use because is fetchable to FoW, and not too difficult to hardcast.

To be honest, I haven't played the deck for a couple of months, if anyone is testing it, please share experience about most problematic cards (Counterbalance hurts, sure), games against ANT or TES, how do you find the matchup against fast decks...
Thanks!

[exaltedgod]

I was wonding why no one plays Living Wish any more? This card gets around Extripate and can get back cards that have been StP. I used to play a tool box board and a one of Volrath's Strong hold in the board as well.

By no means am I saying its must by any means, just asking why.

[Davetradint]

I was wonding why no one plays Living Wish any more? This card gets around Extripate and can get back cards that have been StP. I used to play a tool box board and a one of Volrath's Strong hold in the board as well.

By no means am I saying its must by any means, just asking why.

I still play Living Wish, but you cannot recover an extirpated Aluren :(
Anyway, wishes for me serve as Recruiter #4, #5 and #6, as well as some SB options.

Extirpate is a big pain, so one must consider a plan B, such as goyfs...
I've been thinking of including a land in the SB. But never made up my mind if it had to be a land so as to produce mana or some special tool.

[Dark_Cynic87]

If you fear extirpate, why not use Ground Seal or Planar Void? Sure, you still can't get the Aluren back, but at least you still have 3x in your library. Sounds like a decent plan since people mentioned not needing EW. If you ran E. Witness (I would never drop E. Witness from the 75, but if you did...), you could board it out when you brought these in and it would still run smoothly.

Pce,

--DC

[Davetradint]

During a short time, I used to use Research/Development in the SB.
But I found that goyfs were another path to victory.
I haven't played the deck for months, so no idea how te meta would treat it...
That's why any comments or reports are welcome!

[exaltedgod]

During a short time, I used to use Research/Development in the SB.
But I found that goyfs were another path to victory.
I haven't played the deck for months, so no idea how te meta would treat it...
That's why any comments or reports are welcome!


I like Gofy just like any other person but I dont think that its really needed in the deck. Its a combo deck and should be left as such. I am not saying that it shouldnt have a back up. I used to play the version that won Worlds against Cephaliod Life. The thing is with the meta here in NY Thresh and control is just about the only deck that is played. (Again not say its the ONLY deck out there). I have tried to move towards a more protective deck but moves a lot slower than what it used too. A turn three win happened more often then not but by turn three: FoW, Krosan Grip, Extripate, Daze, and Spell Snare makes this deck scoop.

R&D is a tech that I never thought about..... hmmmm I might have to think abut that.

Edit: Oh... I forgot Canonist too.

[Tangle.Wire]

Hi guys, i am about to try my first aluren deck for the next days but cause of some money problems i have to try it with an U/G build, first i want to post my idea of a Decklist then discuss some questions, so..

Creatures:

3 Cavern Harpy
2 Coiling Oracle
2 Man-O-War
1 Eternal Witness
1 Spike Feeder
1 Essence Warden
4 Raven Familiar
4 Birds of Paradise (i know walls are even better but i need the mana acceleration)
1 Ghitu Fireslinger
1 Mesmeric fiend

Spells:

4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Chain of Vapor
4 Aluren

Lands:

4 Gemstone Mine
3 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept heath
4 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
2 Island
5 Forest

Sideboard:

4 Meddling Mage
3 Mesmeric Fiend
3 City of Solitude
1 Star Proctor
4 Propaganda

At least i dont even have therapies or intuitions so i am not sure to give black a try at all.

When i was reading some posts in this thread i got some pretty hard minds on following threats by the opponent:

Krosan Grip
Extirpate
Trinisphere <- it kills this Deck or am i wrong?

-For the Sideboarding i had the idea (at least it was not my own but i liked it very much) to put some ground seals to the Sideboard against the extirpate or even against the hardly often played loam decks.

-Also i was thinking about Xantid Swarm and/or City of Solitude against the Counter Control Matchup like Landstill, Counter top anything, Muc etc. by just going off in the own turns.
=> It works very good against the Split Second cards aslong your able to drift into the combo the same time by putting the Aluren into play.

-I liked the Idea of splashing white for the Meddling Mages as they can shut down other combo decks, or again save from Extirpate or Krosan grip even Trinisphere aslong its not in the game at all.

-How good are blockers against Aggro matchups like Dredge, Affinity, Goblins or the other kinds of Aggro-Decks really? i think Aluren beeing able to generate 3 Mana on turn 2 (maybe on a build with tinder wall, wild cantor or birds) it will be able just to drop a Propaganda which nearly stops most of those Decks.

I'd like to know how you guys think about, but dont get to angry with me by building a Aluren without the typical black part (i will play therapies as soon as possible) and without the intuitions. I think it still should be able :rolleyes:

[Davetradint]

I suggest, if it's possible for you, to add black as soon as you can.
Cabal Therapy will help you in many scenarios, for instance, naming Krosan Grip just before you cast your Aluren, or removing other threats/counters.

Extirpate is a pain, but you can go aggro style if really needed. Ground Seal will stop their Extirpates, but I'm afraid we cannot stop Loam recursion with it.

Trinisphere stops your combo, it really wrecks this deck, that's the reason I've always wanted to play Force of Will. You cannot simply lose to their: Mana, Mox, Trinisphere, go...

Anyway have a look at Toad's list and see how the Recruiterless version has evolved, there are many great players using those lists who can help you more.

[Nonex]

Ground Seal works against Life from the Loam because it targets the lands. It also works against Dredge (Dread Return). The question is if it's really necessary. You don't lose to extirpated Alurens, even without Research / Development.

Trinisphere is nasty, but you can count on Chain of Vapor, Force of Will and/or Pernicious Deed. Also Krosan Grip post-board.

Propaganda looks nice, but against aggro Walls are more apropiate since they aren't useless with Aluren in play. That's why Wall of Blossoms is better than Coiling Oracle and Wall of Roots is better than Birds of Paradise. Tarmogoyf usually counts as a Wall, too.

[Davetradint]

Ground Seal works against Life from the Loam because it targets the lands.

That's right! (I messed up with it).

The problem we have with Trinisphere, is that we must survive the push of a D.Stompy or Armageddons from a White Stax. Moreover our FoW cost 3, so the sphere must be bounced / destroyed at all costs.

Has anyone good experience with K.Grips post-boards? How does it work dealing with Counterbalances and spheres?

[Nonex]

Trinisphere doesn't have much to say. Against Counterbalance there are two ways: play another annoying spell first to ensure the top card has CMC different than 3, then Krosan Grip (which is a bad 1x2 if the first spell is countered); or wait until the opponent's upkeep when he/she is about to draw, then Krosan Grip still in the upkeep. Since we have so many CMC 3 spells the opponent shouldn't want to draw the CMC 3 card, so he/she should leave another card on the top before the draw step.

[exaltedgod]

Trinisphere is nasty, but you can count on Chain of Vapor, Force of Will and/or Pernicious Deed. Also Krosan Grip post-board.


I might be missing something here but I dont think that Trinisphere has an affect on creature spells played by Aluren.

Trinispere
http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=43545

Aluren
http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=4747

The rulings on Aluren doesnt state that it reduces the cost. It even states that when the card is played it still has its CMC while on the stack. So if we follow the rulings right... Play any spell 3 or less via Aluren, Trinisphere applies it affects due to it being less than three if it is, however three is still the magic number for Aluren so you may choose not to pay anything.


If I am wrong, I would hope someone would explain the correct rulings for me. lol On another note. I think that black really isnt all thats needed. The only real plus is Cabal Therapy.... maybe Deed but I found Deed to me more harmful then helpful and with Stifle being in almost every deck it hold nothing more than a burnt spell. I really think that the GU is more the way to go. It holds more of the control aspects compared to needing to lose a creature for a mishit Therapy.

[honz]

trinisphere does affect aluren. Aluren says "Any player may play creature cards with converted mana cost 3 or less without paying their mana cost", and trinisphere states "each spell that would cost less than three mana to play costs three mana to play." Since you are still playing the cards, and they are costing less than 3 mana, trinisphere makes them cost 3.

Cabal therapy, deed, extirpate/leyline, and hard casting harpy are all important elements to this deck. Deed might get stifled, but thats 1 less stifle for dreadnaught, fetches, raven, recruiter, witness...etc. Deed also comes in against decks w/o stifle, like zoo and stax.

Regardless, i haven't been able to consistantly win much of anything with this deck anymore. Conflux has done nothing to change that.

[exaltedgod]

trinisphere does affect aluren. Aluren says "Any player may play creature cards with converted mana cost 3 or less without paying their mana cost", and trinisphere states "each spell that would cost less than three mana to play costs three mana to play." Since you are still playing the cards, and they are costing less than 3 mana, trinisphere makes them cost 3.

That doesnt reduce nor imply that the cost is now zero. Its just saying that the spell can be played without paying for it compared to having the cost reduced or replaced to zero. These are two different things.
In my entire time of playing this deck I have never played: Leyline of the Void in the sideboard nor main decked, Extirpate, and I NEVER hard casted a Harpy in my 4 years of playing Aluren... not once. lol

There are a lot of things this deck can do with a more multi-colored base but I think it can hold more of its own with more of the control and digging aspect to it which is needed more than saying "Let me see your hand in hopes I named something right." or "Hey here is another enchantment that either you do something about or you dont play anything... oh you Stifled, Trick Bind-ed, or K-Gripped, or even better... countered it... dam." I would rather put something in that spot that solidifies it going through and making dam sure that I get Aluren on board and I win that turn. I am sorry but black is really not needed if your not playing the Recruiter version.

[Esper3k]

That doesnt reduce nor imply that the cost is now zero. Its just saying that the spell can be played without paying for it compared to having the cost reduced or replaced to zero. These are two different things.


Yes, but Trinisphere only cares about how much mana was paid when playing a spell. If that cost is < 3, then it bumps hte cost up to 3.

Force of Will is worded similarly to Aluren and its cost is increased to 3 by Trinisphere as well...

[Davetradint]

Trinisphere could be considered the scourge of Aluren. That's why Nonex recommended dealing with it by bouncing, countering or even sweeping the board.
The real danger of it is that by the time you can deal with it, they are casting armageddon and sealing the game.
IMHO, sphere is the most dangerous artifact, more than chalice set at 1 or pithing needle.

Many people have abandoned the deck and now play more "consistent" choices. My question would be if Aluren can still perform okay in our metas. I know there's so much debate with extirpate and speed / consistancy of the deck. Cost of the recruiter version is another reason many people take into account to not even try the deck.
Comments?

[exaltedgod]

Trinisphere could be considered the scourge of Aluren. That's why Nonex recommended dealing with it by bouncing, countering or even sweeping the board.
The real danger of it is that by the time you can deal with it, they are casting Armageddon and sealing the game.
IMHO, sphere is the most dangerous artifact, more than chalice set at 1 or pithing needle.

Many people have abandoned the deck and now play more "consistent" choices. My question would be if Aluren can still perform okay in our metas. I know there's so much debate with extirpate and speed / consistency of the deck. Cost of the recruiter version is another reason many people take into account to not even try the deck.
Comments?

I think that it all depends what your meta game is to be honest. I know in NY it would be rather hard to play unless you have a heavy control aspect in it to make sure everything gets online. With ANT (and all similar versions) going off on the first three turns and Thresh being stable by turn two and standstill being able to balance everything on the opening hand it would be hard indeed. Extirpate is a nasty little card but from what I have seen isn't really all that played. The cards to really fear are: Chalice set at 2, apparently Trinisphere, Counter-Top online, and the biggest killer of the deck is Krosan Grip.

I feel that the Wish version could prove to be more stable against these decks mostly because you can always find an answer in the tool box board. I really do feel you on the recruiter version which is just dumb how expensive they have gotten. I really wish I got into the Portal series more. lol

If anything deckcheck.net seems to hold all of the versions that are being played. The only difference I have seem so far are complete overhauls and each one is virtually different from each other save one or two with a couple differences. Thats all I really got.

[Nonex]

The cards to really fear are: Chalice set at 2, apparently Trinisphere, Counter-Top online, and the biggest killer of the deck is Krosan Grip.

Krosan Grip is easy to answer via Cabal Therapy or playing all creatures in your hand one in response to the other, without passing priority, just after resolving Aluren. Chalice and Trinisphere are problematic, but they don't seal the game by themselves since you eventually draw the answer to get rid of them. The biggest killer is Counter-Top because it can stop your development while protecting itself from your removal.

[exaltedgod]

You wont be able to announce anything thing if they say "I am K-Gripping your Aluren." Split Second is a bitch. Granted you might draw an answer but by that time I am sure they will have an answer as well. Thast why I am saying a person will have to cram pack the deck with control to make sure anything that could even be a considered anykind of a threat can be dealt with.

[DireLemming]

You wont be able to announce anything thing if they say "I am K-Gripping your Aluren." Split Second is a bitch.
When Aluren resolves you as the active player retain priority. For your opponent to play a SS spell, she still needs priority which you don't pass until after you played all the creatures in your hand.

[Davetradint]

When Aluren resolves you as the active player retain priority. For your opponent to play a SS spell, she still needs priority which you don't pass until after you played all the creatures in your hand.

Maybe I'm confused, but this means you can safely play all critters from your hand and resolve triggered abilities but you don't get more critters. We cannot go off because they get the chance to play their spells. So if I'm right, at least, we can play plenty of creatures but not go off...

Intuition for 3x Cabal T. is a nice move, so you can try to scr*w their hand twice if you have a wall or a goyf online. Aproblem would be faced if Counterbalance were online too...

[DireLemming]

Maybe I'm confused, but this means you can safely play all critters from your hand and resolve triggered abilities but you don't get more critters. We cannot go off because they get the chance to play their spells. So if I'm right, at least, we can play plenty of creatures but not go off...
Sort off. It goes like this

you: put Aluren on the stack (=play)
you: pass priority
opp: pass priority
[Aluren resolves (=comes into play), you get priority]
you: put Goyf on the stack, "and without passing priority"
you: put MoW on the stack, "and without passing priority"
you: put Raven on the stack
you: pass priority
opp: put Grip on the stack targeting Aluren
opp: pass priority
you: :(
you: pass priority
[Grip resolves, you get priority]
you: pass priority
opp: pass priority
[Raven resolves, it's CiP ability goes to stack, you get priority]
you: pass priority
opp: pass priority
[Raven's CiP ability resolves, you get priority]
you: pass priority
opp: pass priority
[MoW resolves, it's CiP ability goes to stack, you choose Raven as the target, you get priority]
you: pass priority
opp: pass priority
[MoW's CiP ability resolves, you get priority]
you: pass priority
opp: pass priority
[Goyf resolves]

As a convenient shortcut, you implicitly pass priority after each play. Therefore you need to explicitly inform you opponent when you wish to retain priority for several consecutive plays.

[welten]

I've been playing Aluren since Toad's first post on TMD with his Aluren build. Usually I don't post here but since this Thread has been getting some activity lately I'd like to show you my latest build that has done fairly well last weekend (~25 players) and in testing. I might want to play this in a medium sized tournament on saturday so maybe you guys have some further input for me.

4 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills

4 Tropical Island
3 Bayou
1 Underground Sea

2 Forest
2 Island
(21 Lands)

4 Aluren
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm

4 Intuition
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Sensei's Divining Top
(24 Spells)

4 Wall of Roots

2 Eternal Witness
1 Sedraxis Alchemist

4 Raven Familiar
3 Cavern Harpy
1 Parasitic Strix
(15 Creatures)

There are definately some odd choices here I should explain:

Top was also suggested a few days ago and it has been awesome. For some time I had Ponder in this slot but Top was clearly superior in testing against controllish decks (against non-disruptive decks we probably already have a good matchup). Top is very good under a Standstill, we might win against Landstill anyways but Top really makes sure we can sculp out our hand, find those therapies etc. It also fills the 2cc slot pretty good (tempo-wise) which is kind of slim since I run no goyfs.

I usually was insecure whether I should play Wall of Roots or Blossoms but with Top it's clearly Wall of Roots since it synergizes pretty well. (Turn 2 WoR + Top and spinning it in the opponents turn is pretty strong. And mid-combo you might drop a Top and use it with 2 Walls.) Wall of Roots has an easier time blocking goyfs as well.

I ran no goyfs because it seems to me that all my worse matchups are trained to handle goyfs easily so I decided to strengthen the control route instead. After all I used the slots for Top, not sure if that's exactly control..
A point might be made for playing only 3 Intuitions then but I think it's a must counter and can also search for 2xWitness 1xSedraxis against counterbalance. The blue permanent required for Sedraxis was not an issue since I only need the Sedraxis when I wanted to combo out and that means I have a Raven in hand.
I don't really miss man-o-wars because with the old I had to keep then in my hand for the combo a lot anyways.
The single Strix was usually enough in the maindeck, against aggro/combo I boarded in a second one. Maybe two in the maindeck are better but probably not required in a control-heavy metagame.

The numbers I'm not sure about are the 4-of Intuition and the 1-of Strix. Also I don't really know how good the witnesses are but if I cut them down I might need to adjust the amount of Strix/Sedraxis (or cut the latter). Chain of Vapor is worth a discussion as well: sometimes I cast them eot on a counterbalance and they put Top on their library and I can combo out.. but if they have enough mana open they are pretty useless. (Obviously they help a lot to combo out usually but in those matchups different choices might be just as good)

I hope you guys share some testing results and advice now. I also have some questions to you guys:

How do you combat CB post-board? Grip or rather Deed? And how many fetchlands are optimal for Top? (not aluren specific maybe)
Did someone already test Volrath's Stronghold which was suggested as well?

I think some boarding plans in general might be interesting since the maindeck is already pretty tight..

[DireLemming]

@welten: great post to step from the shadows of lurking!

I strongly feel 4 Intuitions are the right choice. They smooth everything nicely and are a must counter for anything relying on counterspells for disruption.

Furthermore I swapped 1 land for Life from the Loam and another for Volrath's Stronghold which makes Intuition even more tempting (see ITF). This achieves several things:

1) it strengthens my game against mana denial.

2) it improves mana consistency. Let's face it, getting to 4 mana in a timely manner can sometimes be an issue even without any help from the opponent According to my Monte-Carlo simulation, 20 lands (9 of which are fetches) with LftL is roughly equivalent to 23 lands in terms of getting to 4 mana as soon as possible.

3) strengthens my game against discard.

4) Turns Raven's drawback (echo) into an asset by making it reusable. In a way Stronghold effectively acts as ~1/2 of a Raven. Consequently I can use the Raven slightly more aggressively to dig and/or block before going off.

5) strengthens my game against control.

6) allows me to run only 1 Witness and still be able to Intuition for anything (albeit slower).

7) Better library manipulation: dredging + Stronghold or Witness makes for pseudo tutoring. Reusing fetches means more land thinning. You can shuffle or dredge away Brainstorm crap (even better with Top).

With Strix, Chain is even better as you can randomly kill without Harpy (probably more relevant for versions running Goyf).

I used to strongly prefer Deed over Grip, but I am not so sure anymore. The problem is Grip. Hoping for 5 mana to pop it immediately is a somewhat daring proposition, especially since CB tends to restrict my ability to dig.

[FredMaster]

Chain of Vapor is worth a discussion as well: sometimes I cast them eot on a counterbalance and they put Top on their library and I can combo out.. but if they have enough mana open they are pretty useless.
First of all, I haven't played Aluren too much till today but I noticed one thing.
The three most problematic cards for this deck are Trinisphere, Counterbalance and Chalice (@2) - although the last one is negligible.

Beside the obvious problem of Chain of Vapor just being countered CB easily, is that it will cost 3 mana anyway under Trinisphere, so I figured you could also just run Rushing River which can bounce an additional target.

Am I missing an important aspect of Chain of Vapor?

[DireLemming]

Am I missing an important aspect of Chain of Vapor?
Yes, it allows you to massively dig with Raven (provided you have another creature out) when searching for Harpy (or are at 1 life and can't use it). Also, if you play Strix, you can use it for what a storm combo player would term "mini-Tendrils" (i.e. going off, doing some damage but not actually killing your opponent).

[welten]

Beside the obvious problem of Chain of Vapor just being countered CB easily, is that it will cost 3 mana anyway under Trinisphere, so I figured you could also just run Rushing River which can bounce an additional target.

Am I missing an important aspect of Chain of Vapor?

The important aspect of Chain is that it is not only a solution against Trinisphere and Chalice (and sometimes Counterbalance by forcing them to put their Sensei on top of their library) but it instead is also a very strong combo piece after resolving Aluren.
(You can bounce a Raven and copy Chain to bounce another of your own creatures, replaying the Raven in response. After that you resolve and copy chain again targeting the Raven, etc. Netting you a couple of Raven triggers is usually enough to find more combo pieces. This is because Chain is copied when it resolves and not when it's announced.)

However in the matchups where we have to race the opponent like burn, combo or similar, I often don't have a spare U mana when I have to combo out. Also Chain is only useful against Counterbalance if the opponent is a bit short on mana or taps out. Besides that it streamlines an already consistent combo a lot which may or may not be worth it. So I started testing Wipe Away but I am not sure if giving up consistency for better control matchups is really worth it. Don't get me wrong Chain is definately awesome against random decks but we should usually beat those.. so how much do we want to give up just to be better in the not-so-good matchup department?

[Clark Kant]

Do you guys think the Natural Order Progenitus combo might work in this deck as an alternate win condition if you don't get an Aluren?

[DireLemming]

Do you guys think the Natural Order Progenitus combo might work in this deck as an alternate win condition if you don't get an Aluren?
I don't see anything that would make Aluren particularly suitable for it. I would sooner go for Stifle-Nought as a secondary combo than this (that's not to say that is a direction I would advocate).

[Davetradint]

If we can't combo, we should have access to another way to victory: direct damage or attacking with creatures.
That's why some players add goyfs to their lists (Aluren). It's not a wall that provides mana, but it can handle opp goyfs and also attack. I have won many games that were already lost, thanks to them.
Adding stifle-nought can change drastically the decklist. I don't see that fitting into the deck.

Has anyone tried to add Counterbalance + Top?
I see some of you tried Top and you liked it, please anyone share some comments!

[Nonex]

I'm testing 3 Counterbalance SB against storm combo and discard decks, since I don't run enough blue cards to support FoW anymore. It's ok against the second but looks slow against the first. My next step will be 2 Counterbalance and 4 Chalice of the Void.

[Aj-capra]

HI friends, Im testing aluren.

This is my build:

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
6 [ALA] Forest (1)
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [B] Tropical Island
2 [B] Bayou
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
3 [CHK] Island (3)
1 [US] Swamp (2)

// Creatures
4 [SH] Wall of Blossoms
3 [MI] Wall of Roots
3 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [CNF] Parasitic Strix
1 [CNF] Sedraxis Alchemist
2 [FD] Eternal Witness
3 [PS] Cavern Harpy
4 [UL] Raven Familiar
1 [ST] Man-o'-War

// Spells
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [TE] Aluren
2 [AP] Pernicious Deed
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [TE] Intuition
2 [ON] Chain of Vapor
1 [SC] Brain Freeze

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [FUT] Tombstalker
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [AQ] Energy Flux
SB: 4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 3 [UL] Defense Grid

I prefer to play tarmo maindeck because i can win with it if my oppo drop my aluren. Freeze is the third win condition and I like play it.

[exaltedgod]

Is Counter Top really playable as an alt in here? Like that would be ubber sweet. I think I might have to go and draft up a listing... lol

[honz]

4 Intuitions...furthermore I swapped 1 land for Life from the Loam and another for Volrath's Stronghold
This has got to be the first intelligent thing i have heard in a long time. Full boat of intuitions with loam/stronghold/witness sexyness sounds damn good. Really helps the control MU.

@ Sensei's top: I think this is a solid option, especially with loam/4 intuition. I think 3 may be too many, but 2-3 sounds about right. However, dropping goyfs for tops sounds horrible.

@ Counter-top: aluren may go the way of landstill here, because we run alot of 3-4cc cards. A deck like thresh is running almost exclusively in the 0-2 cc range, which is why they play it so effectively.

@welton's list: I got to say that dropping man-o-wars and goyfs for set-up spells doesn't seem like a great idea. It helps the control match-up, but the aggro MU suffers alot. I do like the list though, i plan on testing that list with these changes:

(slightly diff mana base, but still 21 lands)
-1 land
-1 top
-1 wall
+1 volrath's stronghold
+1 man-o-war
+1 loam

I think you need atleast 2 man-o-wars to combo off consistantly (1 sedraxis, 1 man), even with running strix. 3 tops seems like overkill with 4 intuition, 4 brainstorm, 4 raven (+witness/stronghold to recur), and loam. Your sideboard needs to be heavy combo/aggro hate if you plan on pulling this off...

[exaltedgod]

@ hontz: Good call the pick up of the Stronghold is definately needed for a more consistant win.

Has anyone thought about using a more wish board via Living Wish? I know back in the day I wished for a Maggot Carrior as the kill and other goodies to help ensure my success. I really dislike the new Conflux cards that rely on each other. Also having an "infinite life" is another version of an "out." Maybe Auriok Champion?

[Tangle.Wire]

Is it possible to play the court hussar in this deck for a second Raven? I mean if aluren is in play cant we put the cip onto stack and just kick back the hussar with man-o-war or harpy? :rolleyes:

For the main disgussion:

-I dont like playing goyfs, it blocks well but it never wins a Game. No opponent will stop you combo off but wont be able to handle the gofy as well, i think the alternate way to win with this deck is the painter combo :D or just something non creature based stuff.

-Counterbalance wont work in the main Aluren decklist, you dont have the time/mana to keep the balance aktive + tutoring for the combo so just cut it off.

-i think the Grip is the better sideboard solution, as its nearly unstopable (split second) and can handly everything you have to fear, cb and chalice at 2 or even the trinisphere. Deed almost works against aggro decks but will also kill most cards on your board so i think keeping the walls in play and take the grips is a better choice.

[Davetradint]

-I dont like playing goyfs, it blocks well but it never wins a Game.

Maybe you have not won any with them, but I have many times. Opponents may simply focus on stopping your engine and they aren't able to handle goyfs too. If they can stop your combo and deal with anything you play, just reconsider playing this deck.

A well played Aluren deck can be very hard to stop. Opponent will bite off more than he can chew most of the time.

About Counterbalance, I'd agree but need more testing. The point here is that the deck is not pure controllish, so it's hard to fit in.

[Tangle.Wire]

Whats about the Court hussar? doest it work if i play it with aluren and flip it back after putting the CIP onto the stack? so we could have like 8 Ravens here.

[DireLemming]

Whats about the Court hussar? doest it work if i play it with aluren and flip it back after putting the CIP onto the stack? so we could have like 8 Ravens here.
It does, but good Aluren builds tend to shy away from situational cards such as this.

It's rare that you fizzle when going off and even if you do, it doesn't mean you outright loose.

[welten]

Most important Court Hussar isn't as good as Raven because with Raven you can do the usual play Harpy, CIP Trigger on stack, play Raven in response and dodge a single removal. This doesn't work with Hussar because his sac trigger would resolve before the harpy's gating.

You can still play Hussar as a worse Raven with Aluren and respond to his sac trigger with your Harpy but you won't dodge the random removal.



I think you need atleast 2 man-o-wars to combo off consistantly (1 sedraxis, 1 man), even with running strix. 3 tops seems like overkill with 4 intuition, 4 brainstorm, 4 raven (+witness/stronghold to recur), and loam. Your sideboard needs to be heavy combo/aggro hate if you plan on pulling this off...

I ran 1 Sedraxis and 3 Harpies with Strix which should have slightly higher consistency than the 2 Man-o-War 2 Harpies suggested by Toad earlier in this thread. Assuming his experience with the deck, I'm fine with my setup.

3 Tops seemed overkill to me as well but I used only 2 in the preliminary testing and I always wanted to draw a Top. Personally I rather think of going down to 3 Intuitions again but I'll wait for the testing results of you guys (of course 4 seems to be right if you also want to run Stronghold/LftL and similar).

Further I have no idea why I'd need heavy aggro hate in the board. I play a 2nd Strix in the board, but that's been enough so far. Combo is another chapter which is more about disruption I think and I'm not quite sold for a boarding strategy against AnT/fast combo. How do you approach that Matchups post-board?


Maybe you have not won any with them, but I have many times. Opponents may simply focus on stopping your engine and they aren't able to handle goyfs too.

I've won a lot of games with Tarmogoyfs too, but that was quite some time ago and usually against BW-Discard or random decks. It worked because they didn't have strong threads and boarded something like Duress, Extirpate, Grip and took out removal and pressure.

I don't know which matchups you are refering to here, but by now I think most of our problematic matchups are tuned to deal with goyf stalemates(fire/ice, bolt, swords,..) or don't care about a single goyf. Especially against decks with counterbalance they won't board much more than a set of Krosan Grips, so imo they do NOT only focus on stopping the combo.

This makes me think we might need different solutions, more in the direction of EE or Deed making this deck more controllish. I doubt we can take the aggro-control route with goyfs in the current metagame, but please share your experience in which MUs goyfs helped out!

[Davetradint]

I haven't played the deck for months. Meta has changed, undoubtedly.
Moreover I play the recruiter version, so I'm afraid we cannot compare both engines because they perform well (despite what ppl say), but work differently.

The basis of the deck is the same, and we must focus on winning with our plan A. Should we fail, then we'd need plan B, be it goyfs, or another combo.

The worst matchups I had to face were fast decks like Burn or Dreadstill putting me on 2 turn clock. If the deck can survive 4 turns, we hace many chances of winning. Counterbalance is a real pain, but I tend not to add many cards with CMC of 1 or 2, because that helps them a lot. Harpy is the key, because a chalice @2 really hurts. I still use Stern Proctor, since i can get him while going off, but I couldn't play it with a chalice online.. I don't like Sedraxis, we need a blue permanent, it's harder to cast, since our primary colors are green and blue, we cannot pitch it to FoW, etc...

About EE or Deed, IMHO we need something consistant to stop Dreadnoughts, fast clocks, or tokens. If someone can help or share experiences, that'd be really cool.

[exaltedgod]

You know here is my listing and I think that its really solid for what it has so far.
Any opinions would be wonderful. I have been playing this for about the last 3 or so months. No major tournies as I like to bring ANT to them lol Irony I know. Well here it is.

3 Cavern Harpy
2 Eternal Witness
3 Wall of Roots
4 Brainstorm
4 Aluren
3 Raven Familiar
1 Man-o'-War
2 Pact of Negation
4 Force of Will
3 Living Wish
3 Coiling Oracle
1 Essence Warden
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Brain Freeze

2 Flooded Strand
2 Wooded Foothills
9 Forest
4 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Bayou
6 Island


Sideboard:

1 Raven Familiar
1 Gaea's Herald
1 Brain Freeze
1 Cloud of Faeries
1 Eternal Witness
1 Bone Shredder
1 Man-o'-War
1 Spike Feeder
1 Stonecloaker
2 Vexing Shusher
1 Dosan the Falling Leaf
1 Meddling Mage
1 Cavern Harpy
1 Uktabi Orangutan

[exaltedgod]

Okay I got a few games in but with very limited results. :/ Almost everyne is trying to play Banefire which is kind of dumb IMO. lol Anyway I was able to combo off even against a T1 Thoughtseize. Burn is a bit of a bitch so the "infinte" life out prevailed when I wished off for a Auriok Champion. (I decided to use it instead of Spike Feeder as I can bounce my own Cavern Harpy or Mo'W.) Wishes are a life saver from control aspects and Wit can get anything back. Any other thoughts?

[gottfrid]

Hi, veryone Im new here but Ive been playibng aluren for some time and I always wondered why everyone here plays 3 harpies?

They usually do nothing without aluren, except pitch to FoW. When I go off I always find it anyway, although sometimes 1 turn later because you need to untap to play intuition/brainstorm/vault.
Instead i am playing full playset witnesses, which allows for great card advantage with recursion of Fow and therapy, and can push aluren out through discard/countermagic. Here is my current list for reference:

CREATURES (18)
1 Spike Feeder
4 Wall of Roots
2 Wall of Blossoms
4 Eternal Witness
2 Man-o’-War
4 Raven Familiar
1 Cavern Harpy
ENCHANTMENTS (4)
4 Aluren
SORCERIES (3)
3 Cabal Therapy

INSTANTS (15)
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Intuition
2 Lim-Dul’s Vault
2 Chain of Vapor
LANDS (20)
4 Tropical Island
4 Windswept Heath
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
2 Island
2 Forest
1 Swamp

SIDEBOARD
3 Tormod’s Crypt
3 Mind Harness
2 Krosan Grip
3 Duress
4 Disrupt

[Cacks]

Re: Davetradint's comment on Deeds, E.E.s etc for the current meta, I am playing a (recruiter) version which is significantly more controlling than many (4 Fow, 3 EE, 3 Thoughtsieze), and also incorporates an intuition / loam / cycling lands package to give a card advantage engine in games that go long. It contains only the aluren win condition pre-board, although post board can bring in 'goyfs or recursive etched oracles. I have also included the academy ruins / EE recursion engine, and have sought to absolutely minimise the dead cards. Really it is a bit like ITF meets Aluren. The current list is:

4 FoW
4 Intuition
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

1 Life from the Loam
3 E.E.
3 Thoughtsieze (could be cabal therapy, but I prefer these as they are more useful in the abstract, and I can still go for a back breaker intuition against control with the loam package)

4 Aluren
4 Recruiter
1 Dreamstalker
1 Cavern Harpy
1 Spike Feeder
2 Eternal Witness
1 Cloud of Fairies (given that I have no walls, this allows infinite mana, and with cycling and eternal witness recursion enables me to draw the deck)
1 Man'o'War
1 Vexing Shusher

3 Chrome Mox
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
1 Volcanic Island
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Polluted Delta
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Polluted Mire
1 Adademy Ruins (one could try Volrath's Stronghold instead, which may potentially be better)

Board (currently...):

3 Grip
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Tormod's Crypt (Relic cannot be recycled with Academy Ruins)
1 Raven's Crime
1 Thoughtsieze
1 Etched Oracle
1 Bone Shredder
1 Ghitu Slinger
1 Uktabi Orangutan
1 Fairy Macabre
1 Stern Proctor

The sideboard has obvious tools to shore up aggro matchups ('Goyf) and counterbalance (grips), with raven's crime added to the loam / intuition engine for any glacial control decks, and then a selection of recruitable creatures to tweak the other matchups.

If anyone has tried anything similar I'd be interested to see where they got to.

[DireLemming]

@gottfrid: with 4 Witness and 4 Ravens wouldn't it make sense to play a full set of Therapies to maximise the use of Ravens?

[Aj-capra]

This is the list who im testing now

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
5 [ALA] Forest (1)
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [B] Tropical Island
2 [B] Bayou
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
3 [CHK] Island (3)
1 [US] Swamp (2)

// Creatures
4 [SH] Wall of Blossoms
3 [MI] Wall of Roots
1 [CNF] Parasitic Strix
1 [CNF] Sedraxis Alchemist
2 [FD] Eternal Witness
3 [PS] Cavern Harpy
4 [UL] Raven Familiar
1 [ST] Man-o'-War
1 [MR] Viridian Shaman
3 [TO] Mesmeric Fiend

// Spells
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [TE] Aluren
2 [AP] Pernicious Deed
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [TE] Intuition
2 [ON] Chain of Vapor

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 3 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 3 [MR] Chalice of the Void

MD : Mesmeric is very very good vs control deck and I play it w/out aluren too. Viridian because in my metagame there're a lot of various stax decks and
I must play it versus trinisphere.

Cloud of faeries is a good idea to win with freeze and to have a 2nd win condition md!!!

[P-AiR]

Hey guys,

I understand you would play Cavern Harpy and in response to her triggered effect - you would play raven familiar for an added protection from removal since it would take at least 2 removal spells instead of 1 to get rid of a single raven familiar this way.

However, I have noticed recently in this thread, people have been fielding Strix. Can we still play strix in response to Cavern Harpy's triggered effect? Does it count as already being in play? If you play Strix in response to Harpy's effect, does it mean that Strix comes into play first? Hence there would be no other black creature in play since Harpy would come into play after Strix comes into play?

Any suggestions on a substitution for Intuition - these things are hard to get my hands on! I was wondering what your opinions are for a temporary replacement. Can any of these fill in the 3x - 4x slot for intuition?

Gifts Ungiven
Ponder
Impulse
Lim Dul's Vault

[DireLemming]

However, I have noticed recently in this thread, people have been fielding Strix. Can we still play strix in response to Cavern Harpy's triggered effect? Does it count as already being in play? If you play Strix in response to Harpy's effect, does it mean that Strix comes into play first? Hence there would be no other black creature in play since Harpy would come into play after Strix comes into play?
Harpy's gating triggers when she comes into play, ergo you have a black creature for Strix in play. Even if you need to bounce the Harpy to thwart removal, it still works because by the time your opponent gets priority to throw something at Strix it's CiP effect had already gone onto stack and before it resolves Harpy will be back in play satisfying the check on resolution.



Any suggestions on a substitution for Intuition - these things are hard to get my hands on! I was wondering what your opinions are for a temporary replacement. Can any of these fill in the 3x - 4x slot for intuition?

Gifts Ungiven
Ponder
Impulse
Lim Dul's Vault
Gifts: useless, the primary use for Intuition is finding Aluren or a crippling triplet of Therapies. Gifts can't do either.

Ponder: not bad.

Impulse: haven't tested it myself, but it should be decent (Ponder is probably still better since it's cheaper and more flexible).

Vault: underwhelming. It's slow and the colours are less than ideal.

Sensei's Divining Top: best of the bunch (just make sure you run plenty of fetches).

[Bahamuth]

Okay, I'm interested in this deck. The Loam + Cycle land idea is obviously brilliant, props for that. I've tried to build a version of this deck which essentially looks alot like the controllish versions of LftL decks like ITF of Giftstill. I'm playing a Recruiter version since I belive the card not only improves the consistency of the combo, but also gives the ability to efficiently utilise a toolbox, which is very important, especially with a Loam engine and Volrath's Stronghold. I belive the stronghold is a very good addition for this deck, since it can really give us the edge in control and aggro-control matchups. Here is the rough draft of a decklist.

// Lands
1 [ON] Lonely Sandbar
1 [U] Swamp (1)
1 [5E] Island (3)
2 [9E] Forest (3)
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
1 [EVG] Tranquil Thicket
1 [R] Volcanic Island
1 [U] Taiga
2 [A] Bayou
4 [A] Tropical Island

// Creatures
4 [P3] Imperial Recruiter
1 [PS] Cavern Harpy
1 [TSP] Dream Stalker
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [CFX] Parasitic Strix
1 [PT] Man-o'-War
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [UL] Bone Shredder

// Spells
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [TE] Intuition
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [FNM] Cabal Therapy
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [TE] Aluren
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed

This deck looks really strong. It has a decent chance against any forms of aggro-ish strategy's thanks to Deed and Goyf, and the very likely possibility of a turn 4 win. Stuff like Turn 2 Goyf, Turn 3 Intuition Turn 4 win isn't even that unlikely.

My deck uses the following combo:

Recruiter --> Recruiter --> Dream Stalker (bounce Recruiter) --> Recruiter --> Harpy (bounce Stalker) --> Stalker (bounce Recruiter) --> Recruiter --> Stix (gain 2) and from there on continue to bounce and play Harpy and Stix. This combo uses a minimal amount of 3 creatures mainboard, is possible to do at 1 life and wins through creature hate.

As for Deed, the card has much better possiblities of blowing op dangerous cards than EE. As we've seen in ITF, running Deed together with other permanents is by no means bad, so it shouldn't be for this deck either.

I am unsure of the toolbox in the deck as off now. It seems that this deck will at least need one creature to kill other creatures, and preferably that dies itself, for recursion with Stronghold (this gives the possibility of Intuition to Loam, Stronghold and the creature, which gaurantees blowing up a creature every turn). The 2 creatures that are most suitable for this, Fleshbag Marauder and mainly Shriekmaw, both have 3 power, which makes them unable to be searched for by Recruiter. The only other option I saw was Bone Shredder. I am unsure wether it's necessary to have the option to search for hate with the Recruiter, because Shriekmaw is much better than Shredder.

I hope to hear some opinions. Also, could someone explain why I would run Familliar + Harpy over Recruiter?

[DireLemming]

Something worth considering with Shredder is it's free under Aluren.

Raven pros: one colour less, can be used to dig for Aluren or answers to hate (this is by far the most important), reusable via echo, blue for FoW,...

[Davetradint]

Turn 4 win is more likely than you can imagine. But it's not so easy, you must be careful with opposing K.Grips (we play Therapy or seize due to this) and Extirpates, as well as Chalices/3spheres.

The combo you explain is able to dodge 1 creature-hate card. i usually pack 2x Stalker, but that's only a personal choice. Maybe adding man-o'-war can give more flexibility.

Fast decks gave me problems some time ago, so Deed may be slow (3rd turn at least and then activate...) while EE can blow something up earlier and could be included in a Loam+EE+Academy Ruins pack which I'm going to try tomorrow in a small tournament. Maybe I can try Volrath's S. +Loam +Witness +Deed engine.

As DireLemming says, Bone Shredder costs only 3 (aluren) and has strength 1, it also flies, so it can chumpblock in the worst scenarios, and recurrable to Witness.

About Raven Familiar, all DireLemming is right, just add price of Recruiters, difficulty to be found, and consistancy of the non-recruiter version. So many players feel comfortable with that build (and it works really good).

I used to pack in a Raven Familiar, to get whatever form my library when going off; and a Wall of Roots, so as to get mana...but Cacks has found a piece which, IMO, shines in this deck: Cloud of Faeries. So we free 1 slot, still have a blue card pitchable to FoW, searchable with recruiter, free under aluren, able to chumblock and can be cycled to get cards and untap lands, which give you mana from any color they can produce...
Needless to say that once you go off, this little faeries will rock!

By the way, try adding the second Witness, just in case the one you pack is removed...

Anyone could share his/her sideboard? What are you guys playing lately?

[Bahamuth]

Thanks for the suggestions. I just found out I run too few cards for FoW, so I'm gonna have to change some stuff. For that reason alone it might be good to switch to a version with Familliars, although I am still not very convinced on it. Something I was also thinking about was cutting the Threrapy's. I'm unsune on wether I really need them, and wether I can effectively use them, since Goyf is really the only creature I'll have in play pre-combo (and maybe Recruiter sometimes). SB will definitely have a Raven's Crime, which can forfill a very similar role against Control.

The Bone Shredder seems fine indeed. The chump block is pretty important, and the fact that it actually dies on it's own is great as well. I just wish it would also kill Dreadnought and Tombstalker. This alone may be enough reason to run a Man-O-War, or that other new creature.

I see why I'm only able to go through 1 creature hate, which is hate on my Dream Stalker. I doubt most players would realise that is the best play though. I might play some more SB, but I don't think I'd have the room for it mainboard. Same holds true for the 2nd Witness.

My siderboard almost certainly contains some discard to hopefully help out the combo matchup a little, some Grips and a toolbox for the Recruiter (if I play them). I'm very unsure about the rest so far.

[Davetradint]

I see why I'm only able to go through 1 creature hate, which is hate on my Dream Stalker. I doubt most players would realise that is the best play though. I might play some more SB, but I don't think I'd have the room for it mainboard. Same holds true for the 2nd Witness.


I can dodge only 1 hate card too. The fact is:
Recruiter -> Recruiter#2 -> Stalker +Bounce a Recruiter (no target, so no useful answer), Recruiter again - > Bouncer #2.....and then would repeat the bouncing and recruiting for a Harpy.

But, if opponent has 1 swords (for example), there's no way of stopping the combo (one has to be careful when playing Harpy and the bouncer to be able to bounce harpy itself and not losing the creature). If opponent has 2 pieces of hate, he/she will kill both bouncers. No matter if they target or not.

If the bouncer targets your critter, they will use their hate card on your chosen recruiter. So that's why I use 2x Stalker :frown: But I'd like to try a MoW Mainboard.

To choose among these, Shrieking Drake costs only 1, but I don't like having too many 1CMC, Arctic Merfolk is cool because it's a cost and not a CiP ability, so uncounterable, but Man-o'-War can bounce opponent's critters.

To go off more safely, we need to do some work with discard or being protected with FoW. Test your build until you get comfortable with the amount of blue cards.

The classic Intuition ->3x Therapy is good. If you read the game and plan to do that, don't hesitate to play any critter just to sac it. Clearing the way to victory is key. Sacrificing a Goyf, or even a recruiter is okay, as long as you ensure your 4th turn aluren for the win. Maybe Raven's crime deserve a try, but it will need lot of testing.

As far as Familiars are concerned, if desired, try a hybrid build: 2/3 Familiar + 2/3 Recruiter. I've seen people with this in top8s, so it has to be good.

I've been testing the Loam engine and it really rocks! On the other hand, fast decks are hard to beat. I find problems dealing with Ichorid and Burn; and I'm afraid TES and ANT can be hard too.

About Sideboard, I'm using 4 slots for Living Wish targets and
4x BEB
3x Tormod's Crypt/Relic of Progenitus/Extirpate (still have to decide)
3x Krosan Grip
1x Pernicious Deed (I pack 1 MB)

Comments are welcome!

[Cacks]

Although I do love me an Aluren deck, and it is deceptively disruptive and powerful, I do have concerns about its viability in a meta as seen in Chicago. Does anyone have any input on how to maximise the deck, or play strategies, against hosts of swords, counterbalances and tops?

Has any tried Reverent Silence in the board - it is essentially uncounterable with counterbalance (cc = 4), cannot be realistically dazed (as in fact costs 0 mana), nor spell snared, but without tying up the mana of grip (which is also often attacked by the opponent by flaoting a 3 cc card on their library). That leaves only force of will, which is going to be carrying a lot of work in the matchup anyway. Finally it can also take out more than one counterbalance, in the odd event that two hit the table.

[honz]

Although I do love me an Aluren deck, and it is deceptively disruptive and powerful, I do have concerns about its viability in a meta as seen in Chicago. Does anyone have any input on how to maximise the deck, or play strategies, against hosts of swords, counterbalances and tops?

It is really very easy. You just play a transitional board into eva-green, since apparently that wins everything these days.

[Bahamuth]

It is really very easy. You just play a transitional board into eva-green, since apparently that wins everything these days.

I'm not sure if you're serious about this, but it's kind of what I've been discussing with some teammates. The LftL list I posted a couple of posts earlier is really similar to It's The Fear. I think that it would realistically be possible to board out the Aluren engine for more control-ish cards to kind of transform into ITF. Perhaps CB + Top sb might be strong enough, since it's a very decent board plan against combo. (actually it's very strong).

[ChokeSeemsGood]

I have been playing this deck for some time now and this is my current list.

Creatures:
1 Cavern Harpy
1 Eternal Witness
1 Man-O-War
1 Ghitu Slinger
1 Parasitic Strix
2 Dream Stalker
3 Imperial Recruiter
4 Wall of Roots
4 Tarmogoyf

Instants/Sorceries:
4 Brianstorm
4 Living Wish
4 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Intuition

Enchantments:
4 Aluren

Lands:
4 Tropical Island
4 Bayou
1 Volcanic Island
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Poluted Delta
3 City of Traitors
1 Forest
1 Island

Sideboard:
1 Carvern Harpy
1 Ghitu Slinger
1 Eternal Witness
1 Dream Stalker
1 Imperial Recruiter
1 Man-O-War
2 Stern Proctor
2 Vexing Shusher
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 City of Traitors
3 Leyline of the Void

Questions/Comments
Thanks

[Davetradint]

Sideboard:
1 Carvern Harpy
1 Ghitu Slinger
1 Eternal Witness
1 Dream Stalker
1 Imperial Recruiter
1 Man-O-War
2 Stern Proctor
2 Vexing Shusher
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 City of Traitors
3 Leyline of the Void

Questions/Comments
Thanks

Hi,
I see many sideboard slots are Wish tools. You should add 3x Krosan Grip at least, and try reducing the Critter SB. Moreover, if a creature you control gets buried, you can recover it by Witness. If the creature gets RFG, you get it with Wishes, so there's no need to add a #2 in SB.
Have a try!

[P-AiR]

Hey guys,

been testing out Aluren for a couple of hours and I have a few play/rule questions to ask you.

1) With Aluren in play :: You play Harpy then in response play Manowar then pop in a Spike feeder - is the feeder able to remove both counters to gain 4 life before it returns to your hand? Is that play legal?

2) Usually when I have 4 mana I just play Aluren with force of wills in hand to back it up but only to draw many Cabal Therapies, intuition, etc. They're all in my hand while I'm going off because I cannot play them due to the fact that I've tapped out for my Aluren and since Wall of Roots does not produce blue or black I cannot play any of those cards while I'm going off (it feels unsmooth).

To get ready to go off with Cabal Therapy / Intuition before you actually play Aluren to better prepare yourself? Giving up speed for efficiency and safety?

A solution to this would to play Coiling Oracle so you could play multiple lands when you're going off then cast cabal therapy, use Volrath's Stronghold's ability, cast intuition, etc since you would have the mana on the turn you're going off. However, I do understand that Coiling Oracle lacks versatility unlike Wall of Blossoms that acts as a block and draw, hence it is a dead cardish when you're not going off.

What strategies do you play with?



3) Gating questions: I was wondering if someone could clarify this excerpt from an old article for me: "Due to the way gating works, by the time your opponent lets you choose which creature to return, they can't respond (you choose on resolution). Since you have three Recruiters in play, if they try to kill one in response to you casting Dream Stalker, simply choose a different Recruiter. Replay the Recruiter."

Is that the same way with Harpy and if I had multiple Familiars in play?

I can simply choose another one?


Thanks for your time.


Cheers,
Pierre

[Nonex]

1- Spike Feeder dies as a state-based effect as soon as you remove the second counter. You either remove only one and gain 1 life with each loop (-1 from Harpy +2 from Feeder) or remove both and include Eternal Witness in the process.

2- That depends on the deck you're playing against. If it's aggro (like Zoo) you may need Intuition turn 3-4 to find the missing pieces and go off the next turn (or not). Against aggro-control or pure control (with blue), you need Cabal Therapies to make sure Aluren hits play (you're not trying to play it turn 4 anyway, these pairings need time, patience and plenty of mana).

I don't think you actually need Coiling Oracle nor Cloud of Faeries, but the last one is more versatile.

3- Since Harpy doesn't target, you wait until your opponent has done anything he/she wanted to do (like killing some of your creatures) and let the ability resolve, then you choose any blue or black remaining creature you control.

[honz]

I agree with nonex, but i would just like to add

1. You want to play harpy, then in resp to its CIP ability play raven or whatever. That way, they need 2 StP instead of just 1 to break it up. Also, don't remove two counters, that just opens you up to grave hate.

2. I try not to play aluren until i have atleast 1 therapy or force, and some relevant creature (raven or harpy+man+wall of blossoms or harpy + raven). However, if you are on 2 life, and your opponent has 4 creatures on the board, you might wanna just cross your fingers and go for it.
Post-board, you really should expect anyone playing green to board in 4x krosan grip.

3. Harpy can bounce itself. If you have no other blue/black creatures in play, harpy just returns itself.

[P-AiR]

Thanks for everything guys..

Played casually against Survival and Thresh and had favorable turnouts.

Got stumped with Pithing need (cavern harpy) so I couldn't go off.

I already had Aluren in play, so if I played Chain of Vapors to target needle and he targetted back my aluren I would still not be able to go off since in order for the chain to go off to bounce the needle I would have to bounce my aluren in response?

Another inquiry for Chain of Vapors - someone had an idea in a couple pages back to bounce all the creatures of the opponent with man o war then vapors our own aluren to make sure they don't come back into play any time soon. However, can't the opponent just replay them in response to you vaporing the Aluren?

I'm just having trouble dealing with non creature permanents that are already in play that slipped through my therapies / FoW?

Is Chain of Vapor really the answer? I guess it's time to run 2-3x Pernicious Deeds?

[DireLemming]

You copy the Chain upon resolution: the Needle is bounced and your opp chose to copy it. The copy goes onto stack and the opp chooses your Aluren as it's target. Now you have priority again and can play instant speed spells before the copy resolves taking your Aluren away. In other words, it is quite possible to go completely off whilst an effect to remove Aluren is on the stack.

[Nonex]

In fact Krosan Grip is annoying because split second doesn't let you go off in response.

The trick with bouncing your opponent's creatures while making sure they don't come back immediately is filling the stack with Man-o'-War triggers using the interaction between it and Harpy, then play Chain of Vapor on Aluren. By the time those triggers are ready to bounce the opposing creatures, Aluren is back in your hand.

Chain of Vapor is the cheapest and most versatile answer to noncreature permanents. If you run specific creature tutors (like Chord of Calling or Imperial Recruiter) even Stern Proctor is an option. However, Pernicious Deed is still important in case of problematic permanents in multiples and/or with shroud. For example, I run 2 Chain of Vapor and 2 Pernicious Deed (and 3 Krosan Grip SB).

[DireLemming]

The trick with bouncing your opponent's creatures while making sure they don't come back immediately is filling the stack with Man-o'-War triggers using the interaction between it and Harpy, then play Chain of Vapor on Aluren. By the time those triggers are ready to bounce the opposing creatures, Aluren is back in your hand.
While cute this is quite risky. A good opponent won't replay his creatures but simply let the MoW triggers bounce all of yours.

EDIT: this is wrong on multiple levels; see below.

[honz]

While cute this is quite risky. A good opponent won't replay his creatures but simply let the MoW triggers bounce all of yours.

You don't understand what he is saying. You play man-o-war, its CIP ability (targetting their creature) goes on the stack. You then activate harpy, play harpy, bounce man-o-war (its CIP ability still on the stack). Then repeat this process till you have any number of man-o-war's CIP abilities on the stack. Then, with the CIP abilities still on the stack, you play Chain of Vapor (targetting aluren). Chain resolves first, aluren goes to hand. All the man-o-war abilities resolve, bouncing their creatures. Aluren is no longer in play, so their hand is full of creatures and they all cost mana to play.

remember, the stack is your friend.

[DireLemming]

That obviously makes much more sense. For some reason I was still operating under the assumptions of the original question and to make matters even more embarrassing even that was wrong as MoW's ability targets so there no your opponent can force you to bounce your own. Thinking before posting is tech.

[P-AiR]

You don't understand what he is saying. You play man-o-war, its CIP ability (targetting their creature) goes on the stack. You then activate harpy, play harpy, bounce man-o-war (its CIP ability still on the stack). Then repeat this process till you have any number of man-o-war's CIP abilities on the stack. Then, with the CIP abilities still on the stack, you play Chain of Vapor (targetting aluren). Chain resolves first, aluren goes to hand. All the man-o-war abilities resolve, bouncing their creatures. Aluren is no longer in play, so their hand is full of creatures and they all cost mana to play.

remember, the stack is your friend.

Interesting, I guess I better read up on how the stack works because it makes sense when they are able to in response replay their creatures. No matter how many times you bounce them with man o war they should be able to replay.

Unless you're chaining the aluren in response to bouncing all his creatures. So he would have no chance to bring them back out because they wouldn't have been in their hand yet? Did I get it?

Strix is interesting because you only need 3 cards to kill your opponents but without the harpy and aluren it's kinda of a dead card?

Thanks for being so patient and willing to help guys.


Cheers.

[DireLemming]

Unless you're chaining the aluren in response to bouncing all his creatures. So he would have no chance to bring them back out because they wouldn't have been in their hand yet? Did I get it?
Yes.


Strix is interesting because you only need 3 cards to kill your opponents but without the harpy and aluren it's kinda of a dead card?
It still flies, beats for 2 and blocks.

[Nonex]

Strix is interesting because you only need 3 cards to kill your opponents but without the harpy and aluren it's kinda of a dead card?

I think so. A 2/2 flying for :2::u: doesn't look interesting to me, even if you have a black permanent. The combo is already the interaction between three cards (Aluren + Harpy + Raven) and Strix only changes the way you kill once you've already won. It's better than Spike Feeder if time runs out and you must win in 2-3 turns, otherwise it's worse.

[Cacks]

I think so. A 2/2 flying for :2::u: doesn't look interesting to me, even if you have a black permanent. The combo is already the interaction between three cards (Aluren + Harpy + Raven) and Strix only changes the way you kill once you've already won. It's better than Spike Feeder if time runs out and you must win in 2-3 turns, otherwise it's worse.

I agree with Nonex. Although Strix gives you a kill on the board, it is worse than feeder in most other situations - against beatdown the ability to drop feeder as a chump blocker, gaining 4 life and killing a piledriver (etc) can often be really useful. To my mind it is 'win more' - if you are going off you should win anyway, even with the feeder 'kill'.

Edit: Actually I am an idiot. Playing Strix gives a one card kill to the combo. This frees up (in my recruiter build) a main deck space by replacing feeder and the mana generator (in my case, cloud of fairies) needed for the feeder to create infinite +1/+1 counters. That allows an additional card, probably a recruiter target, main which is worth the slight loss of fexibility.

[Davetradint]

Edit: Actually I am an idiot. Playing Strix gives a one card kill to the combo. This frees up (in my recruiter build) a main deck space by replacing feeder and the mana generator (in my case, cloud of fairies) needed for the feeder to create infinite +1/+1 counters. That allows an additional card, probably a recruiter target, main which is worth the slight loss of fexibility.

Not so idiot. Strix requires being able to target the opponent, while Feeder doesn't. You don't need to draw many cards because when you're going off, you're winning. You can just recover your FoWs and hand disruption to protect your next turn and attack for the win.
You need: Aluren + Feeder + Bouncer + Harpy

Otherwise you have a 2 piece combo that do not need Recruiter specifically.
You need: Aluren + Harpy + Strix
Feeder has a couple of tricks and the chumpblocking is really cool. Strix is only a flying chumpblocker with no ability.
Freeing a slot in recruiter build has always been a priority for me. I used to pack Wall of Roots + Raven Familiar + Feeder. Now, with Strix, I do not need mana (1 free slot), but I'd like to keep the Raven, since it can help finding things.

Anyway, the fact that Feeder can win the game without worrying about S.Confinements, Runed Haloes and so on, is a point to keep in mind...
I'll post an updated list this week and explain there my choices.

About SB: What do you guys use against graveyard strategies?

[Tangle.Wire]

Hi, against Graveyards i used crypt and it worked very good, relic of progenitus would be a bit better i think. :rolleyes:

Anyone thought about Leyline of Lifeforce against counterbalance or chalice ? even Counterbased decks at all!

[DireLemming]

You guys are worrying about non-issues. How many decks pack Solitary Confinement or Runed Halo? And even if, you can always bounce them.

[Nonex]

About SB: What do you guys use against graveyard strategies?

It depends on the strategy. Against Aggro Loam I don't think we need graveyard hate since only Devastating Dreams (and to a lesser degree, Seismic Assault) is really dangerous and Hydroblasts are enough. Against Ichorid we already have some tools maindeck, since Spike Feeder, Cabal Therapy, Raven Familiar and Pernicious Deed take care of the tokens, Walls stop Ichorids all day long, against a huge reanimated creature we have Chain of Vapor, Man-o'-War and Force of Will, and our Tarmogoyfs are 6/7 at the very least. These are the graveyard decks I see most often, although I have 2 empty slots in the sideboard and I'm currently filling them with Relic of Progenitus until I find something more appropiate.


Anyone thought about Leyline of Lifeforce against counterbalance or chalice ? even Counterbased decks at all!

I tried, it and it's too dependant on luck with opening hands, like all Leylines. Krosan Grip is better against Counterbalance. Chalice @ 1 can almost be ignored since your important spells cost 2, 3 or 4; unless you have to face Chalice @ 1 and @ 3 (Chain of Vapor and Pernicious Deed are your main answers) I wouldn't worry too much.

[e1567]

Greetings everyone,

I have decided to build aluren and I am thinking of trying a little twist on it. I have done no testing yet at all so I personally have no clue how it might work so please be kind and give some constructive criticism here is the list:

4 Force Of Will
4 Brain Storm

3 Cabal Therapy

3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Aluren
4 Counter Balance

4 Raven
3 Harpie
1 Strix Parasite
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wall of Roots
1 Eternal Witness

4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
3 Bayou
4 Forest
3 Island

I know there has been some talk about the counter top package being put in the sideboard but I was curious if the addition of the counter top package would give some resilience to the deck. Maybe the addition of countertop might take away from aluren but could make it stronger. Am I missing somthing crucial here? The curve seems good for countertop a little high but still good.

Any suggestions or criticisms, I am going to buy the cards with my GP winnings so I have some time before I get it but I have my eyes set on this deck, with or without the countertop but I am unwilling to put the cash into the imperial recruiter. So any suggestions?

[DireLemming]

Without Intuition is Therapy worth it? First and foremost it severely compromises your mana development since you alerady need to commit to blue early for CB. The nature of hate Aluren faces has greatly changed, nowadays it's mostly Grip and with the abundance of 3cc spells CB can take care of it just fine in most cases. Same in other situations. (e.g. facing hard counters) CB is either good enough or better.

On the other hand what your list is severely lacking is some way of getting rid of hateful permanents. That's why I recommend you change the Therapies to 2x Chain of Vapor and 1x Top. The latter is to maximise CB and minimise the void left by Intuition.

EDIT: LftL is probably worth playing even without Intuition. I would cut a land for that and upped the fetchland count to 10+. Doing so would also make Top better. It makes no sense whatsoever to play Flooded Strand over Polluted Delta.

It may also be worth it to play Volrath's Stronghold despite cutting down on black.

Are you sure Wall of Roots is better than Wall of Blossoms (without Intuition cantripping is even more important)?

[P-AiR]

Without Intuition is Therapy worth it? First and foremost it severely compromises your mana development since you alerady need to commit to blue early for CB. The nature of hate Aluren faces has greatly changed, nowadays it's mostly Grip and with the abundance of 3cc spells CB can take care of it just fine in most cases. Same in other situations. (e.g. facing hard counters) CB is either good enough or better.

On the other hand what your list is severely lacking is some way of getting rid of hateful permanents. That's why I recommend you change the Therapies to 2x Chain of Vapor and 1x Top. The latter is to maximise CB and minimise the void left by Intuition.

EDIT: LftL is probably worth playing even without Intuition. I would cut a land for that and upped the fetchland count to 10+. Doing so would also make Top better. It makes no sense whatsoever to play Flooded Strand over Polluted Delta.

It may also be worth it to play Volrath's Stronghold despite cutting down on black.

Are you sure Wall of Roots is better than Wall of Blossoms (without Intuition cantripping is even more important)?

How does Wall of Roots or Wall of Blossoms affect Intuition?

[e1567]

He is suggesting that wall of blossoms will allow you to draw into Aluren more consistently.

I personally think that therapy is still worth it without intuition. I am a Ichorid player and I know the power of blind calls and just depending on two therapies to clear the way. I think 3 is good with the raw digging power of the deck. I like the wall of roots for the excel it gives. It has awesome synergy with top and can still allow a turn 3 win and helps against LD tactics (all in theory of course I have still not tested this deck).

I might actually try a list without cabals but I think they fill a vital role in a control matuchup allowing us to win CB wars.

I am glad you think that CB might work in the deck I saw at least one aluren deck at the GP but it didn't do so hot and ran a chord of calling list with coiling oracle. I know the guy (by sight) and I know he didn't make day two which is sad since I really do like this deck.

Thanks for the critic DireLemming what do you think of the manabase is 22 too much or too little, so no flooded strands huh damn I was hoping to get the cheaper fetches but since I do have underground seas I might as well use them right. How about this mana base

4 Polluted delta
4 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
3 Forest
2 Island

This land base is with the assumption that I am not running cabals.

[DireLemming]

In my testing 21 lands was more than enough, especially if you are running Wall of Roots and Top. In my latest builds I even went down to 20 lands + LftL.

As for your manabase it probably has too much black still. I would cut a Sea and Bayou for one more Forest and a fetchland/LftL/Stronghold/Top. Also at least one Strand should be a Wooded Foothills.

[P-AiR]

What does everyone think about living wishes?

They're awesome when you're going off but when you're not and you're in a pinch, it may slow you down a turn.

Spending two mana could be a difference of dropping a man-o-war to bounce a big boy on their end or play living wish to wait until next turn to respond with a creature.

Thanks.

[ChokeSeemsGood]

Pesonally i love living wish in the deck and wouldnt play without it. I have never really used one when going off though it has been mostly used to set up for combo on turn three.

[exaltedgod]

I use Living Wishes for my Maggot carrior. I run a more tool box board just for them and they can help solve almost any problem.

I really dont think that 4 of CB is really needed. CounterTop only plays like three max an even some listings I have seen play only 2.

On a personal note I felt that top just slowed down the deck with waht the intention really is. To be honest in my meta there needs to ne some serious protection from the nase up to the actual "win". Again this is just due to my experience.

[e1567]

On a personal note I felt that top just slowed down the deck with waht the intention really is. To be honest in my meta there needs to ne some serious protection from the nase up to the actual "win". Again this is just due to my experience.

Yes I think you are right 3 probably would be a better choice, I put four in because and the GP most decks ran 4. Also I think that counter top actually does give protection from the base up. With counter top you have the option of actually countering krosan grip and protecting the combo. Again counter top might not belong I still feel like it needs some testing. But since I do not have the CB package as of yet I am going to hold off buying the pieces until after March 20th just in case they ban SDT, like they did in extended.

What does a living wish board look like and how does that reflect the main board, obviously you do not run recruiter, I am just curious how it looks and in your opinion how is it stronger than not running it?

[P-AiR]

Hey guys,

Been playing Aluren hardcore at joints near my house and I'm quite impressed the way it handled Goblins. Being a goblin player myself, the walls slowed the goblins enough for me to go off on them.

However, in the earlier threads, I did get the impression that this deck's worst enemy are the Pikula Black Suicide decks? Discard and fast black creatures really does wreak havoc on this deck. Are there any measures that can be taken against them? I guess there's not much decks can do against a first turn hyppie.

I have not played control decks yet (packed with counterspells and removal), I was wondering in your own experiences how does Aluren fare against them? Are there specific things you do different? I guess always carrying a force in hand while casting Therapy before you go off is a safe measure.

Cheers.

[Nonex]

The entire Pikula strategy is bad for Aluren, but the worst aspect is mana denial (Wasteland + Sinkhole + Vindicate). Wall of Roots and being careful with your Fetchlands is key.

Against control, as you said, Cabal Therapy is everything and that's why resolving Intuition will win you many games. Remember that you don't plan on going off as soon as possible, you're the control deck here.

[DireLemming]

Top helps quite a bit against discard. Having a lot of fetchlands and craking them at the last possible moment (preferably to cast Aluren) is some good against LD.

[P-AiR]

However, no one uses both Tops and Intuitions right? ;)

[Nonex]

I run 3 Tops and 2 Intuition, why?

[P-AiR]

Good! How goes it?

Didn't see any of those two together in the lists for this thread.

[Nonex]

Intuitions are ok since I've always run 2. 4 Brainstorms evolved into 3 Tops and 1 Wall of Roots. They're better to me. You can see some lists with both cards in the last 4 pages.

[e1567]

Does 3 tops really do better than 4 brainstorms? May I see your list, do you run force of will? Do you find that top is a little mana intensive when we kinda need to spend our turn 2 and 3 setting up for an aluren or an intuition, with top you want to spend a mana a turn. I can see wall of roots really help with this but only 2 intuitions seem a little slim too but I guess top helps. I am just interested to see your deck list.

[Nonex]

My current list is:

4 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Volrath's Stronghold
5 Forest
4 Island
1 Swamp

1 Cavern Harpy
4 Raven Familiar
3 Man-o'-War
1 Spike Feeder
2 Eternal Witness
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Wall of Roots
4 Wall of Blossoms

4 Aluren
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Intuition
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Chord of Callling

SB:
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Counterbalance
3 Krosan Grip
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast

This deck has always run Brainstorm instead of Top and played accordingly. That's why I think you shouldn't let Top "dominate" you, giving it the lowest priority. That is, you should plan what to do every turn as though Top wasn't in play. Only if your plans need less mana than available you could start manipulating your library. At least that's the philosophy I'm trying to follow.

[P-AiR]

Looks like a solid list, and I understand that you included only 1 harpy on purpose.

But don't you ever find yourself praying for a harpy and the only things in your hand are the familiars and man-o-wars?

Or do the tops / intuition + eternal witness help overcome it?