[Deck] Aluren

[Fry]

The thing with Deputy though is that it targets. Very easy to disrupt targeting abilities.

[yoshipwnz]

To everybody arguing for Quickling, is the 1 mana worth Flash or should you guys just be playing Faerie Imposter?

[redstripe509]

Hey Everyone. Been slowly putting the deck together and now that I've played it, I've been having a lot of trouble. My list is pretty standard except for a funky eldritch evolution sideboard.

What do you look for in opening hands and how do you guys side against grixis delver?

How are people finding it overall in today's meta?

[ESG]

Hey Everyone. Been slowly putting the deck together and now that I've played it, I've been having a lot of trouble.

What are you losing to?

[redstripe509]

What are you losing to?

So far I've been losing to silly combo and beating miracles which both makes sense.

The part I'm struggling with is I seem to have a lot of trouble with Delver. Particularly grixis, only having Strix as an answer to Gurmag Angle seems problematic. I'm playing on MTGO and the meta is a bit wacky I suppose, but there are all these 4-Gurmag Angle/Thought Scour delver decks where it just seems hopeless.

[Weebo]

To everybody arguing for Quickling, is the 1 mana worth Flash or should you guys just be playing Faerie Imposter?Shrieking Drake is another flier, has less of a chance to get you 2-for-1'd than either Faerie, and plays nicer with Shardless Agents. I think if you're going for most impactful outside of combo, flash is worth the extra 1 mana. Inside of combo, they're all going to play the same anyways.

Arctic Merfolk's bounce as cost is still my favorite option for the Guardian builds. I think the only reason to move away from that is if you're trying to shift more midrange.

[wos1337]

Shrieking Drake is another flier, has less of a chance to get you 2-for-1'd than either Faerie, and plays nicer with Shardless Agents. I think if you're going for most impactful outside of combo, flash is worth the extra 1 mana. Inside of combo, they're all going to play the same anyways.

Arctic Merfolk's bounce as cost is still my favorite option for the Guardian builds. I think the only reason to move away from that is if you're trying to shift more midrange.

I agree with Merfolk and its cast trigger being invaluable at times. I haven't really had an issue with grixis aggro, but i can see how it can be a hassle provided they can take over the game pretty quick... I can usually combo off before they kill me, so I have had a pretty good record against them..though my match ups here are limited.

Early disruption with cabal therapy can be very useful in slowing them down and removing their combo disruption. I try and keep a cabal therapy in the GY to flashback before going for the combo to make sure the coast is clear. Also, I think shardless agent would shine in a control match up, especially against miracles. I mean, Shardless Bug has a favored match up against Miracles, right?
In my match ups against Miracles i have been able to keep them off counter/top thanks to early Cabal therapies, and abrupt decay allowing enough time to establish the combo. Running a main deck Reclamation Sage has also been very useful. Rec-Sage usually slips by counter/top lock, and can be recurred with eternal witness or Volrath's Stronghold to really even up the field.

Among the delver lists, the most annoying to play against has been RUG.. those stifles and tempo plays can be excruciating.

[TTX]

Hey guys, here is my version of the Veteran Explorer Aluren Deck.
Let me know what you think of the card choices.


4 Recruiter of the Guard
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Cavern Harpy
1 Eternal Witness
1 Arctic Merfolk
1 Coiling Oracle
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Shardless Agent
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Parasitic Strix
3 Baleful Strix

2 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library
4 Aluren
4 Cabal Therapy

2 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea

SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
SB: 1 Orzhov Pontiff
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Bone Shredder
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 3 Force of Will


So far, I've found the deck to be very powerful. The Veteran/Phyrexian Tower interaction allows for the occasional turn 2 kill.
Turn 3 is quite common with discard protection.

[Cartesian]

I know Deathrite Shaman is a good card, but I feel like it might underperform in a list with 7 fetchlands, 0 wasteland, and 9 instant/sorceries (not counting Therapies).

Edit: It appears that Elves run similar numbers, so I could be wrong. I just don't see it consistently generating mana in the early turns of every game, which is the primary function in this deck.

[Weebo]

DRS is eating opposing lands and instants/sorceries at least as often as it's eating your lands. Probably more often. It's not like fetches are a rare sight in legacy lists. I expect those numbers work out fine for the most part. I would still prefer to be running closer to 10 fetches for fixing purposes and feeding DRS given that the deck is three colors splashing a fourth, but that's a lot less relevant in an Explorer list.

TTX: How has the manabase been working out? 1 Savannah/1 Plains seems like it could put a little strain on your lands, particularly after boarding. I might also consider ditching oracle in favor of the full 4 Strix. You're only running 17 lands, you're pulling them with Vets, and you're at least as heavy in B as you are in G. How often are you hitting a land with Oracle, and how often would you be better served with the otherwise higher impact creature?

[adrieng]

What about playing academy rector it can be fetched by the recruiter and it adds redudency to find aluren ? We can sac it with cabal therapy. Looks good to me.

[TTX]

TTX: How has the manabase been working out? 1 Savannah/1 Plains seems like it could put a little strain on your lands, particularly after boarding. I might also consider ditching oracle in favor of the full 4 Strix. You're only running 17 lands, you're pulling them with Vets, and you're at least as heavy in B as you are in G. How often are you hitting a land with Oracle, and how often would you be better served with the otherwise higher impact creature?

Hey,

So I've found that the Explorer list helps a lot against the D&T and Tempo. I have changed the list slightly from what I had posted earlier.
Here's what I've changed it too. I'm coming from Nic Fit land, so my first knee-jerk reaction was to put many basics in. This is unnecessary,
and I have changed it abit. I have substituted in 2 Merfolk to mirror the 2 Dream Stalkers, this provides almost complete protection while comboing.
I'd argue that Merfolk is actually better for the Imperial Recruiter lists because you keep priority while returning the other creature with the kicker cost.
The blocking capacity of Dream Stalker I don't think is that relevant. I trimmed 1 Veteran Explorer too since there are only 4 lands to get. You need only
resolve 1 Veteran trigger anyway for this deck to function properly.


4 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Cavern Harpy
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
2 Arctic Merfolk
2 Shardless Agent
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Parasitic Strix
3 Veteran Explorer
4 Baleful Strix

2 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Sylvan Library
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Aluren

1 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Polluted Delta
1 Phyrexian Tower

SB: 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 1 Orzhov Pontiff
SB: 1 Sedraxis Alchemist
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 3 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Bone Shredder
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 3 Force of Will
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay


Here's my sideboard plan as the list exists currently. I am not sure still about all of the numbers and identities.
Let me know what you guys think. The opposing decklist not considered below is likely a cakewalk that requires minimal
sideboarding.

Miracles +2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, +1 Null Rod, +2 Carpet of Flowers, +1 Abrupt Decay
-3 Veteran Explorer, -2 Thoughtseize, -1 Baleful Strix

Delvers and Shardless Decks +2 Toxic Deluge, +1 Bone Shredder, +2 Carpet of Flowers, +1 Abrupt Decay
-1 Reclamation Sage, -2 Thoughtseize, -2 Shardless Agent, -1 Sylvan Library

Storm +3 Force of Will, +1 Null Rod, +2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
-2 Sylvan Library, -2 Abrupt Decay, -1 Reclamation Sage, -1 Veteran Explorer

Reanimator +3 Force of Will, +2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, +1 Sedraxis Alchemist, +1 Bone Shredder
-2 Abrupt Decay, -2 Shardless Agent, -2 Sylvan Library, -1 Veteran Explorer

Elves +1 Sedraxis Alchemist, +1 Bone Shredder, +3 Toxic Deluge, +1 Orzhov Pontiff, +1 Abrupt Decay
-1 Reclamation Sage, -2 Sylvan Library, -2 Shardless Agent, -1 Arctic Merfolk

D&T +1 Orzhov Pontiff, +1 Abrupt Decay, +1 Bone Shredder, +1 Null Rod, +2 Toxic Deluge
-2 Thoughtseize, -1 Cabal Therapy, -2 Shardless Agent, -1 Eternal Witness

Lands +1 Abrupt Decay, +2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, +1 Sedraxis Alchemist
-2 Shardless Agent, -2 Thoughtseize

Eldrazi +1 Abrupt Decay, +1 Sedraxis Alchemist, +1 Bone Shredder, +3 Toxic Deluge
-1 Eternal Witness, -1 Shardless Agent, -2 Sylvan Library, -2 Thoughtseize

[paradaxarada]

4 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Arctic Merfolk
3 Baleful Strix
1 Cavern Harpy
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Parasitic Strix
2 Shardless Agent
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Reclamation Sage

3 Intuition
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm

4 Aluren

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

1 Bayou
1 Flooded Strand
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Marsh Flats
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath

SB: 1 Orzhov Pontiff
SB: 1 Wasteland Strangler
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 3 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Tsabo's Web

[Fry]

4 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Arctic Merfolk
3 Baleful Strix
1 Cavern Harpy
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Parasitic Strix
2 Shardless Agent
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Reclamation Sage

3 Intuition
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm

4 Aluren

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

1 Bayou
1 Flooded Strand
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Marsh Flats
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath

SB: 1 Orzhov Pontiff
SB: 1 Wasteland Strangler
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 3 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Tsabo's Web

The Stoneforge Mystics don't make any sense in this deck, I think you would be better served in making Pact of Negation a 3 of, add the 4th Baleful Strix, and add a Sylvan Library or something.

SFM doesn't align with what Aluren wants to do, which is to combo out an win on the spot. Sure the deck needs to just bash face and win that way, but that's not its main goal.

With all that said, I am interested in as to why you put them in your list, it just confuses me some because it doesn't seem to help the actual combo in any way via protection, filtering, or other combo pieces.

[paradaxarada]

I'm trying to not go "all in" on the combo mode, by keeping a hand with stoneforge mystic you can have a good midrange gameplan, and believe me, you're always tempted to keep a hand with Stoneforge. What I'm saying is, the presence of stoneforge on the deck turn our plan B in a safe plan, without compromising the resilience of our combo.

But I can be completly wrong, all this is in a test mode, and you also should try it someday to make sure if it's a bad idea.

[yoshipwnz]

I would like to remind everyone that Aluren isn't, nor has ever been, a true Combo deck. It is a far worse combo than actual Combo decks, so we must balance the Midrange and the Combo aspects of the deck.

[redstripe509]

I've been thinking about Stoneforge as well, but the fact that it's just a good way to win in a midrange game with straight damage is what has turned me away. For the approach I'm taking, each creature/spell has to have some sort of disruption attached to it or some way to further the combo plan, lastly they do need to just help you play in the midrange. Either way I'd be curious to see how your testing turns out.

Here is the list I've got right now:

2 Arctic Merfolk
4 Baleful Strix
1 Cavern Harpy
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Parasitic Strix
1 Reclamation Sage
4 Recruiter of the Guard
3 Shardless Agent
1 Academy Rector

4 Aluren
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Sylvan Library
2 Thoughtseize

1 Savannah
1 Swamp
2 Polluted Delta
1 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold


Sideboard
1 Abrupt Decay
3 Eldritch Evolution
2 Force of Will
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Peacekeeper
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Yixlid Jailer

[Weebo]

I would like to remind everyone that Aluren isn't, nor has ever been, a true Combo deck. It is a far worse combo than actual Combo decks, so we must balance the Midrange and the Combo aspects of the deck.Agreed. There are faster and more compact combos available, so Aluren should occupy a different spot in the metagame. Having a combo more resistant to removal and a decent midrange plan as a backup is good. Something like Pact of Negation that's not helpful before the combo turn and doesn't support the midrange plan at all doesn't have a place in this deck.

For the SFM list, I have to question the manabase. There are a lot of black sources for a relatively light splash. Shifting to a more bant focused manabase is going to be a lot less awkward than being a true 4C deck without a central color. I think Intuition is unnecessary. Embrace the midrange elements a little more and take advantage of the fact that you're attacking on two very different axes. If you go hard on the combo, it's easier for your opponent to interact, mulligan, and SB. You're not going to race a lot of decks out there anyways. On that note, I'm also wondering how the smaller disruption suite is working out. You really only have the Forces and neither Aluren nor SFM midrange is quick. I feel like you're going to drop a lot of games to faster decks because you don't have a way to stop them. I like the SFM idea, but it seems a little unfocused right now.

[wos1337]

Excited to see more people agree with the Vet. Explorer build of Aluren, using Phyrexian Tower :) I have been tinkering with it for a little while now and have really enjoyed it. Especially when my opponents are like, "Oh, you're playing Shardless Bug, i know what to do", or "Oh...nic-fit..great"... then i drop an aluren on turn 2 and they just drop their jaws xD fun stuff. I also love all the synergies!

[wos1337]

Seems Okay-ishhhh, but Im testing out a more Mid-range SB. Pern. Deed to control the board, and Tireless tracker for insane value, companied with the new Nissa to take advantage of those land drops, and that 5/5 Haste on a freshly swept board is nice :)

Land (19)

2x Bayou

2x Forest
1x Island
3x Misty Rainforest
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Plains
1x Savannah
1x Swamp
1x Tropical Island
1x Underground Sea
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Volrath's Stronghold

Creature (23)

2x Arctic Merfolk
2x Baleful Strix
1x Cavern Harpy
4x Deathrite Shaman
1x Eternal Witness
1x Parasitic Strix
1x Reclamation Sage
4x Recruiter of the Guard
3x Shardless Agent
4x Veteran Explorer

Sorcery (6)

4x Cabal Therapy
2x Diabolic Intent

Instant (7)

3x Abrupt Decay
4x Brainstorm

Enchantment (5)

4x Aluren
1x Sylvan Library

Sideboard (15)

1x Bone Shredder
2x Carpet of Flowers
1x Containment Priest
2x Nissa, Vital Force
1x Orzhov Pontiff
2x Pernicious Deed
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Tireless Tracker
2x Toxic Deluge

[kaluma]

hey y'all. not sure how much this forum overlaps with the /r/mtglegacy crowd, but I posted a tournament report there that you might enjoy. Cheers!

https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/52b4jz/aluren_tourny_report_monthly_legacy_challenge_on/

with this list: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/472965#online

[adreena]

Nice write-up. I'm very new to the deck (and legacy), but had a couple of questions if you don't mind.

Your side-boarding strategy for Miracles is very different from what Martin Goldman-Kirst suggested in his Channel Fireball article from December 2015. He just brings in Carpet of Flowers and the artifact and enchantment hate/removal. From the limited number of times I've played the match-up on MTGO, comboing off has still been easy and Cabal Therapy has been one of the best cards in the deck against them. I guess your side-boarding is more relevant to the Miracles deck of today, faster with Monastery Mentor etc? Isn't Garruk a card Shardless sometimes brings in against delver decks? Why not just cast an Aluren instead? Yes it's potentially a 1 card win condition, but it seems a bit slow.

Have you found that Pernicious Deed has been fast enough against decks like Elves, Eldrazi, Shardless etc? Compared to the seemingly more popular Toxic Deluge.

Revoker looks good. I saw that you brought it in against Miracles, Elves and Storm. Would you mind explaining what other match-ups you would bring it in for?

Thanks!

[kaluma]

So in theory miracles should be a solid matchup, and for the most part it is, but i've lost enough times to random mentors/ entreats/ jace that I like to have enough sideboard space devoted to make it firmly a good matchup, since miracles is very popular online. My plan, as outlined in the post, is to remove the discard and most of the alurens and plan on grinding while they have to devote deckspace to disrupting our combo. Discard is good early in the game, pretty bad once they've established anything, and mostly ineffective once they land a top. It's also cold to counterbalance, which we sometimes can't answer or don't answer to save decays for things like mentor. Therapy is, however, nice for clearing the way for your combo late game, but my plan has been to rely less and less on the combo. You're still a little cold to mentors getting out of hand or random entreats, though, so I might change my plan a little in the future to leave in 2 alurens to see it more often. Revokers are OK here, but usually just die without creating value, so something like: -2 aluren, -2 thoughtseize, -3 cabal therapy, -1 baleful strix, +2 carpet of flowers, +1 revoker, +1 null rod, +1 garruk, +1 rec sage, +1 deed, +1 plague. I used to have bloodbraid elf to bring in here to fight jaces, but took it out.

Garruk Relentless is great, and i like its versatility. It's a solid threat against miracles that doesn't overcommit you to terminus, but can also be a removal spell against creature decks that grinds out value afterwards. I've even used the flip side to tutor for the combo after landing aluren. Against delver, I try to just not get tempo'd out and die. Especially against grixis, where they have discard and counters it's hard to rely on landing aluren and winning. Garruk is something that you can topdeck to immediately stabilize or get you ahead, without relying on other cards. It doesn't matter if it's slow if it kills their last threat or can block an angler indefinitely. I play these matchups much more like a midrange deck than a combo deck - just survive and cascade into removal/ value. This is why i love carpet of flowers so much, as it helps you cast your spells and not get run over.

Pernicious deed is a solid card and can do a lot of things that deluge cannot. I like having it on board against miracles to guard against entreat/ counterbalance/ mentor/ blood moon (sometimes). Against the small creature decks it can mop up all the dudes and equips/vials/chalices/other nonsense. While it's a little slower you don't have to pay life, which is a pretty big deal. Elves is a tough matchup, and deed was too slow in the legacy challenge, but that guy's hand was absurd that game ;). Eldrazi I don't worry about too much, since I run 4 baleful strix to go with the other value guys. Deed is not at its best there, though. Keep in mind deluge is not an allstar here either, because it's real situational when it's good; if you're clearing all the eldrazis like thought-knot and smasher then you're likely at real low life. I like deed better against shardles, too, bc again you don't want to pay 5-7 life to kill tarmogoyfs. Ultimately, I wouldn't blame anyone for playing deluge instead, but even just it's benefits against miracles make me learn towards pernicious deed.

Revoker meanwhile is pretty great. It seems a lot of people go overboard in their recruiter targets, especially really narrow ones that go against combo. I.e. are you really going to have time to recruit a faerie macabre against reanimator and is that a matchup you expect to face often?? Revoker, on the other hand, is versatile enough to be worth it. It hits most combo decks (storm and sneak attack mainly) but also has side applications against other decks. I bring them in against death and taxes (mom, equips, vial), elves (birchlore rangers, symbiote, heritage druid, quirion ranger), miracles (top, jace... i'm thinking now you only want 1 here), painter (grindstone, top). I've also brought them in against planeswalker heavy lists of shardless, but that might be wrong.

Hope this helps! If others want to chime in on their miracles plan I'd love to hear it :)

[swoop]

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/127/400/200/283/636094527450562696.png

Aluren, This, recurring artifact creature with cmc <3

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/127/395/200/283/636094519340813494.jpeg

Works with White Rec

[Weebo]

Fireweaver: Can this be made more compact than the existing kill? I don't think there's a CMC <= 3 artifact creature that can work alone and including one as part of the Cavern Harpy loop is more complex than just killing with Parasitic Strix. I don't think occasional pings off of Baleful Strix and Agent are worth enough to make the combo kill more complicated.

Mechanic: Not blue or black, so it can't be part of the combo kill.

[Fry]

As Weebo said, the Mechanic doesn't play well with Cavern Harpy

The Fireweaver is interesting, but only think I can think of is something corny and rather bad in Genesis Chamber. There's not a way to consistently make the artifacts for the Fireweaver without needing to change the combo to something different. Cool card, but I don't think it's for this deck.

[swoop]

Rec for aviary for rec for white rec for rec for dream Stalker bounce rec for Stalker for harpy.... What a at?

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[dte]

Rec for aviary for rec for white rec for rec for dream Stalker bounce rec for Stalker for harpy.... What a at?

What the point of running two bounce-crea then? in this scenario you are vulnerable to a decay/StP on Dream stalker. If you have two blue bounce-crea you are not.

[swoop]

What the point of running two bounce-crea then? in this scenario you are vulnerable to a decay/StP on Dream stalker. If you have two blue bounce-crea you are not.

I know i'm rambling.

[wos1337]

I know i'm rambling.

Pretty sure there are more synergistic alternative combo kill creatures then the one newly spoiled in KLD. And as for the new bounce creature - it doesn't work because its not blue and has no synergy with Cavern Harpy. Im playing with the new recruiter and my Vet Explorer Aluren build, and im still heavily impressed and in favor for Arctic Merfolk. I'd be pleased to see them print a blue x/2 dream stalker type creature though! ...I still love the cast "trigger" for Arctic Merfolk though. I was playing against goblin sharpshooter when trying to combo, and the fact i could bounce my recruiter before they killed it was insanely powerful - so much so it won me the game.

[TTX]

I agree with Arctic Merfolk being amazing-awesome priority rules abuse. I switched back to the non Vet list for now though. I just felt it was somewhat clunky and less efficient that the heavy Shardless Agent and Thoughtseize list. I really enjoy saccing Vet to Therapy, but we're not short on creatures for that and the pay off is not the same as GSZ. I think Noble Hierarch may be better in the new Bant/Sultai build


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[wos1337]

I agree with Arctic Merfolk being amazing-awesome priority rules abuse. I switched back to the non Vet list for now though. I just felt it was somewhat clunky and less efficient that the heavy Shardless Agent and Thoughtseize list. I really enjoy saccing Vet to Therapy, but we're not short on creatures for that and the pay off is not the same as GSZ. I think Noble Hierarch may be better in the new Bant/Sultai build


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Don't abandon us now!
Im testing out the new (good) nissa and tireless tracker sideboard for a more midrange transformational SB, as well as Pernicious Deed. it's been fun so far :) naturally you cant take advantage of all that vet builds have to offer, but the synergy as you know is still there. So much value being able to flashback therapy off vet, clean out their disruption - and with the extra two lands being able to cast Aluren for the win.

I will agree the vet build has its pro's/con's, and maybe we're just waiting for the right complimentary cards to be printed. The more conventional list certainly has its merits. I have had great luck using Diabolic Intent in my build. Cascading into that, sacing vet to search out recruiter/aluren is the dream ;)

[TTX]

I totally agree on those points, but I dislike how much Explorer helps Burn, Storm, and Death and Taxes, some of our worst matchups.


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[wos1337]

I totally agree on those points, but I dislike how much Explorer helps Burn, Storm, and Death and Taxes, some of our worst matchups.


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I agree. This definitely makes it tough. I have been able to pull through fairly consistently against DnT, and Storm we have SB answers to. I can agree that Burn present a very real problem, but if you're lucky you can just combo them out the turn before they kill you? haha. I feel like burn is generally a bad much up for us anyway..

Im still trying to weight out the benefits of the vet build, and i agree with your points. I hope I can find a solution to these issues :)

Burn: Do we need to side in Finks? lol Clunky builds FTW!

[Dutch253]

I've heard people talking of cutting Imperial Recruiter for Recruiter of the Guard adding white to the deck. Has anyone seen any lists going around for something like that? I'm sort of new to Legacy so I'm not sure how to build something like this from the ground up, especially the mana base and combo pieces.

[TTX]

I've heard people talking of cutting Imperial Recruiter for Recruiter of the Guard adding white to the deck. Has anyone seen any lists going around for something like that? I'm sort of new to Legacy so I'm not sure how to build something like this from the ground up, especially the mana base and combo pieces.

You should check out previous pages of this thread before turning it into yahoo answers


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[Dutch253]

You should check out previous pages of this thread before turning it into yahoo answers


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Pardon me for trying to avoid pouring through dozens of pages of text rather than asking a quick question.

[swoop]

Just go for past 4-5 pages m8 the ask questions...

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[J.Black]

Pardon me for trying to avoid pouring through dozens of pages of text rather than asking a quick question.

There is indeed a list with the new recruiter:

OUT: Imperial recruiter + Dream Stalker + whatever red dual you were using

IN: Recruiter of the Guard + Arctic Merfolk + Whatever white dual you have available

Switching from R to W does give access to more hate in the sideboard but it's not yet clear what is best to run - wait until the meta setlles after the latest releases.

There are lists that run both recruiters but, as I am neither made of money nor have I got a masochistic approach to mana bases, I haven't built one.

[lordofthepit]

Thoughts on this Recruiter-less list? http://www.starcitygames.com/article/33686_Daily-Digest-Legacys-Allure.html

This was on MTGO, so the lack of Recruiters is unlikely to be due to budget constraints.

[TTX]

It's interesting for sure. It does eliminate dead draws like Dream Stalker/Arctic Merfolk, however I suspect it will surely durdle worse than a regular Shardless BUG deck. For that reason I'd rather keep the 2 card combo of Recruiter/Aluren


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[Nonex]

Both Recruiters force you to run 4 colors, which translates to a mana base weaker to nonbasic hate. They also promote the inclusion of Deathrite Shaman, which allows graveyard hate (including opposing Deathrite Shamans) to nullify a mana accelerator and fixer. They force you to run Dream Stalker or Arctic Merfolk, both terribly bad creatures. Both Recruiters are mere 1/1s for 3 mana in a world of Goyfs, Delvers, Pyromancers, Nemesis, etc. which makes them rather underwhelming. Both are tutors that can't find Aluren, Cabal Therapy, Force of Will, Abrupt Decay, or most of the typical sideboard cards.

Both Recruiters basically suck, especially without Aluren, for all the reasons above. But ever since Portal Three Kingdoms became legal in Legacy, people have only wanted to see the "it's a 2-card combo" part. It's been like this for years, and now that Recruiter of the Guard has eliminated the money issues, people are more convinced than ever that Aluren isn't viable without Recruiters. As you have surely guessed by now, I disagree wholeheartedly. But the good thing is that Aluren may get more popular now, which could lead to new lists, or at least help people realize Recruiters aren't as hot as they look on paper. For now, every time I've discussed them with friends or known players in my area and explained my points above, the closest answer ressembling a rebuttal has always been "but it's a 2-card combo!".

[yoshipwnz]

It's super strange to me that your argument boils down to:

1) Recruiters are bad because they are clunky
2) Recruiters are bad because they make you another colour, thus weaker to non-basic hate
3) Recruiters make you play Dream Stalker or Arctic Merfolk

Then you play 4 Cavern Harpy (which are far clunkier and worse without Aluren than Recruiters or Dream Stalkers are), 4 Coiling Oracles which are as "Useless" as the Recruiters are, and play the same number of basics as other lists leaving you just as vulnerable (since if you cast Recruiters generally you find it the turn you cast it).

[dte]

Then you play 4 Cavern Harpy (which are far clunkier and worse without Aluren than Recruiters or Dream Stalkers are), 4 Coiling Oracles which are as "Useless" as the Recruiters are, and play the same number of basics as other lists leaving you just as vulnerable (since if you cast Recruiters generally you find it the turn you cast it).

Cavern harpy & coiling/shardless/baleful are a draw engine, harpy can still kill delvers and easily block-bounce tarmogoyfs and is immune to removal. It is not that clunky.
I am not saying that recruiterless lists are better in the actual metagame (I do not know), but there is some points at saying that recruiterless can be interesting.
It is noteworthy that a number of lists have played without recruiter, including the ones which have started this very thread, while globally the options were not that dissimilar (I would even say that imperial could have seem better then, as the three aforementioned creature which create CA with harpy were not available then, and raven familiar is probably much more clunky).

manabasewise, only comparing the number of basics is wrong, as if you play one less colour, you do not need to fetch dual that often.

[mistercakes]

after playing the bug opposition deck for 17 matches in paper, i think the massive amount of consistency brought from all the cantrip guys will provide a lot of stability for the aluren deck. i think cartesius' version merits a lot of exploration before changing it.

[Nonex]

It's super strange to me that your argument boils down to:

1) Recruiters are bad because they are clunky
2) Recruiters are bad because they make you another colour, thus weaker to non-basic hate
3) Recruiters make you play Dream Stalker or Arctic Merfolk

Then you play 4 Cavern Harpy (which are far clunkier and worse without Aluren than Recruiters or Dream Stalkers are), 4 Coiling Oracles which are as "Useless" as the Recruiters are, and play the same number of basics as other lists leaving you just as vulnerable (since if you cast Recruiters generally you find it the turn you cast it).

Cavern Harpy is clunky, yes. In fact, Cavern Harpy is the main reason Recruiters are bad. Imagine if it was green and returned any creature without color restrictions. Oh boy. I've been waiting for something to replace it for years, but nothing so far has been released.

Anyway, the reason you can (but don't have to) run 3-4 Harpies is if all or most creatures in your deck are blue or black. That means you can hardcast them and always have something to return. In the old Extended lists most creatures were green, so Harpy was way more useless. Also, I'd take an unkillable flying 2/1 (which I can't leave out anyway) over a 1/5 every time.

Coiling Oracle is not useless at all. I don't see how a cantrip creature can be. This one even has an added synergy with library manipulation to accelerate you. I'm not saying it's the second coming of Jesus, because it obviously isn't, but it has pretty good value.

I'm not judging Recruiters from a theoretical standpoint. I bought 4 Imperial Recruiters around 8 years ago and played them extensively in Aluren and other decks. I tried every list I could think of, with 4 Recruiters and 2 Arctic Merfolk, with just 2 Recruiters, with 4 and 0 Merfolks, with Tinder Wall, with Veteran Explorer, with and without Chain of Vapor, with and without Taiga, with Living Wish... The cost of putting Recruiters in the deck (color, Stalkers/Merfolks, tempo) is too much. Being unparalleled with Aluren resolved never compensated for me.

Then again, I've never been a pro player - maybe it's me who sucks. But please, take into account that Recruiters do have disadvantages, and that being a 2-card combo may not blow them out of the water.

EDIT: I just realized you might have mistaken me for the guy from that link - I'm not. I personally never played Aluren with less than 6 basics, Veteran Explorers or not, and I don't see the point of running more than 1 Parasitic Strix.

[Togores]

Question for experts!

I looked at the 1st page but its outdated.

With recruiter + aluren how can you conbo off and how many spot removal cards can you play around?

I know you can play around some buy how many is this and how you do it?

Thanks

[dte]

Question for experts!

I looked at the 1st page but its outdated.

With recruiter + aluren how can you conbo off and how many spot removal cards can you play around?

I know you can play around some buy how many is this and how you do it?

Thanks

I am no expert but can easily answer that. One removal does nothing if you hold only one recruiter, two wrecks you if catches you unaware and you play one harpy and two bounce creatures.

You start by chaining recruiters. Then, while having 3 on board, you fetch a bounce creature. You play it, it does not target so spot removal does nothing, bounce a recruiter, play it for a second bounce creature, bounce recruiter, fetch harpy. Then as an answer to harpy on the stack, if there is two removals for both your blue bounces creatures, you're wrecked. If you play a third bounce creature, you are fine to play against two removals.
Later on, you play your strix only with all your bounce creatures in hand and the harpy bounce on the stack.

A third bounce creature on SB can be useful against decks that play StP-SCM and REBs, as SCM is made free by aluren.

[Parcher]

I am no expert but can easily answer that. One removal does nothing if you hold only one recruiter, two wrecks you if catches you unaware and you play one harpy and two bounce creatures.

You start by chaining recruiters. Then, while having 3 on board, you fetch a bounce creature. You play it, it does not target so spot removal does nothing, bounce a recruiter, play it for a second bounce creature, bounce recruiter, fetch harpy.

You're mostly correct up to here. What you want to do at this point is:

1. Play Cavern Harpy, if they pass, goto 2. If they target(1) Stalker 1 in response to casting Harpy, allow the removal to resolve.

2. With the gating trigger on the stack, you play the second Stalker. If they target(2) Harpy in response to you casting Stalker 2, or the gating trigger, pay a life to return Harpy. If they target either Stalker, just bounce the other one. Allow the trigger of Stalker 2 to resolve. If they target it with the trigger on the stack, re-cast Harpy. If they then have the third(3) removal for Stalker in response to you casting Harpy again you're done unless you have a 3rd effect somewhere. You then just use the Stalker 2 trigger after it dies to Recruiter it up. Usually E. Witness. Otherwise, you return Stalker, re-cast Harpy, and again with the gating trigger on the stack, re-cast Stalker. This time, get Recruiter for Strix. Pay a life. Rinse. Repeat.

So they have to be able to play 3 instant speed removal effects on 3 separate targets in one phase. And sweepers at best still count as one. And even that's no good if you have a Witness available unless all 3 are Plow.

[dte]

You're mostly correct up to here. What you want to do at this point is:

1. Play Cavern Harpy, if they pass, goto 2. If they target(1) Stalker 1 in response to casting Harpy, allow the removal to resolve.

2. With the gating trigger on the stack, you play the second Stalker. If they target(2) Harpy in response to you casting Stalker 2, or the gating trigger, pay a life to return Harpy. If they target either Stalker, just bounce the other one. Allow the trigger of Stalker 2 to resolve. If they target it with the trigger on the stack, re-cast Harpy. If they then have the third(3) removal for Stalker in response to you casting Harpy again you're done unless you have a 3rd effect somewhere. You then just use the Stalker 2 trigger after it dies to Recruiter it up. Usually E. Witness. Otherwise, you return Stalker, re-cast Harpy, and again with the gating trigger on the stack, re-cast Stalker. This time, get Recruiter for Strix. Pay a life. Rinse. Repeat.

So they have to be able to play 3 instant speed removal effects on 3 separate targets in one phase. And sweepers at best still count as one. And even that's no good if you have a Witness available unless all 3 are Plow.

I do not get it. If they have two removals, they play it at your two stalkers, responding to the ETB effect of the second one, and you are screwed before having access to cavern harpy.
We agree that you start by chaining recruiters, then the two stalkers before grabbing the harpy, right? Otherwise they will need only one removal.

So two removals are enough if you start with only 1 recruiter in hand and only two stalkers in the deck.

Or did I miss something?

[Parcher]

You play the Stalker 2 after Harpy has resolved, but with it's gating trigger unresolved. If they target either Stalker at that time, with Harpy's gating trigger still on the stack you pay a life to return Harpy. Then with their removal on the stack you replay Harpy, putting another gating trigger on the stack, which will resolve before their removal.

[dte]

You play the Stalker 2 after Harpy has resolved, but with it's gating trigger unresolved. If they target either Stalker at that time, with Harpy's gating trigger still on the stack you pay a life to return Harpy. Then with their removal on the stack you replay Harpy, putting another gating trigger on the stack, which will resolve before their removal.

How do you grab harpy before playing stalker 2?

If you:
1) chain recruiters
2) play stalker 1, bounce rec, play rec
3) fetch and play harpy with stalker 2 in your library

You just lose to one removal (played on stalker as an answer to harpy on the stack). I cannot see how to beat one removal if not by grabbing harpy after the 2 stalkers.

Can you elaborate your exact sequence, starting with only aluren on play and one recruiter in hand? I probably fail to see something here.

[Parcher]

You're right in that you have to have either one Stalker, Harpy, or Witness in hand already for this to work. Sorry for the confusion.

[dte]

You're right in that you have to have either one Stalker, Harpy, or Witness in hand already for this to work. Sorry for the confusion.

Always good to try to figure out other sequences, even when none exists :)

So, I guess the global answer to Togores's question is that they need as much removal as you have stalkers, plus one if you have either rec, harpy, stalker, witness in hand additional to the one that started the combo.

[Parcher]

Right. I missed the "only Recruiter' part of the question. And it's plus one for each of those in your opening hand, since you can respond with any of them once you have the first Stalker.

[Darkenslight]

I do not get it. If they have two removals, they play it at your two stalkers, responding to the ETB effect of the second one, and you are screwed before having access to cavern harpy.
We agree that you start by chaining recruiters, then the two stalkers before grabbing the harpy, right? Otherwise they will need only one removal.

So two removals are enough if you start with only 1 recruiter in hand and only two stalkers in the deck.

Or did I miss something?

That's why you chain recruiters first - so that you can get the hard-combo into your hand. If you can get it to the point where you have two blur gating triggers on the stack, they have to have play their removal on all three of your gatings in response ot all of the triggers. If they do not, you can chain your combo again for nothing, as none of your triggers target.

[Fry]

Someone should probably make a flowchart image of how to combo off with the deck and just post it every so often when people ask how it works.

[Tantarus]

Someone should probably make a flowchart image of how to combo off with the deck and just post it every so often when people ask how it works.

That is a good idea, also maybe update the first post with a new primer that reflects what the deck is now not was like 5+ years ago.

[btm10]

I'm cross-posting this to the Food Chain thread to see more opinions.

I've viewed recent incarnations of Aluren and Food Chain as being quite similar for the past few years and I've always considered giving them a try but never pulled the trigger. I'd like to take one of them for a spin at my weekly soon, but I'm having trouble deciding between them. What are the major pros and cons to Aluren from your perspectives?

[Weebo]

That's why you chain recruiters first - so that you can get the hard-combo into your hand. If you can get it to the point where you have two blur gating triggers on the stack, they have to have play their removal on all three of your gatings in response ot all of the triggers. If they do not, you can chain your combo again for nothing, as none of your triggers target.Opponent can still respond to the Harpy cast by removing the two bouncers, which is what was being said earlier. The combo is always at it's most vulnerable while Harpy is on the stack. You can only play around as many removal spells as you have bouncers unless you started with more than a single Recruiter in hand. That's typically enough, given that you're also running countermagic/discard to disrupt.


Someone should probably make a flowchart image of how to combo off with the deck and just post it every so often when people ask how it works.I had some time to kill. Fair warning, it's intentionally pretty dry and the number of steps means it's fairly large. I went for the most removal resistant path. It obviously doesn't take everything that could be going on (interaction from your opponent, needing to find EWit, having a low life total/playing around burn, etc) into consideration, but it should give anyone interested at least some idea of how the combo kill works.

Posting a link rather than an image out of consideration for the thread: http://i.imgur.com/6vJalPt.png

[Nonex]

I'm cross-posting this to the Food Chain thread to see more opinions.

I've viewed recent incarnations of Aluren and Food Chain as being quite similar for the past few years and I've always considered giving them a try but never pulled the trigger. I'd like to take one of them for a spin at my weekly soon, but I'm having trouble deciding between them. What are the major pros and cons to Aluren from your perspectives?

Major cons:

- Bad matchups in fast combo decks (ANT), prison decks (Eldrazi / Painters / Stax), and mana denial + early discard and pressure (BUG)
- Counterbalance destroys you (I maindeck 4 Decays because for it)
- Tier 2 at best (very restrictive on creatures both by cost and colors, no alternatives to Cavern Harpy)
- Not managing to resolve Aluren can leave you with an okay-ish to crappy deck, depending on your choice of creatures

Major pros:

- Many players have never seen the deck or barely aknowledge its existence, they don't know how it works
- Very few specific answers for it in people's sideboards, if any

[dte]

Right. I missed the "only Recruiter' part of the question. And it's plus one for each of those in your opening hand, since you can respond with any of them once you have the first Stalker.

Right. And we can also add that any number of either shardless agent, baleful strix and coiling oracle in your hand and/or in play helps turning around more removal, provided you have a couple of life points to spare.

Overall, you can sum it up by saying that barring specific conditions, aluren is not really vulnerable to creature removal, except the not really played sudden shock.

[Fry]

I had some time to kill. Fair warning, it's intentionally pretty dry and the number of steps means it's fairly large. I went for the most removal resistant path. It obviously doesn't take everything that could be going on (interaction from your opponent, needing to find EWit, having a low life total/playing around burn, etc) into consideration, but it should give anyone interested at least some idea of how the combo kill works.

Posting a link rather than an image out of consideration for the thread: http://i.imgur.com/6vJalPt.png

Thanks for doing the chart, unfortunately the link didn't work for me when I tried to open it.

[Weebo]

Thanks for doing the chart, unfortunately the link didn't work for me when I tried to open it.The link changed somewhere in there and I missed it. Try http://i.imgur.com/c3Dzld7.png instead.

[Pdf]

Seems like white could bring enlightened tutor which can be extra alurens, libraries, and some of the creatures (strixes and shardless). Not to mention helping out with many of the board tools. Looking forward to when it comes online to try this out although it'd be nice to have more white sources.

Also I'm wondering a bit why ponder doesn't appear in many of the winning lists, too much durdling? Seems like most blue decks play some number from rug to miracles so I would have expected a non zero quantity in aluren. Anyone have experience running em? Gonna probably give em a whirl too :-)

[yoshipwnz]

When comparing Aluren to other decks, compare it to Shardless BUG instead of anything else (save perhaps Food Chain, but IDK). The reason Ponders don't get run is because it is fairly slow, cascading into it sucks, and we don't need the help later in the game to have manipulation to draw useful cards as we generally have plenty to do with our mana.

[Tantarus]

The link changed somewhere in there and I missed it. Try http://i.imgur.com/c3Dzld7.png instead.

What is the purpose of stacking gating triggers then moving to Strix? Does that play around something?

[TTX]

Yes, it plays around removal (except spells with split second).


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[maraxusofkelds]

Seems like Aluren is on the comeback. Won the past 2 Card Kingdom 1k's, and now top 8 at scg indy.

[Brendelton]

TTX is the individual who played the Aluren at SCG Indy, his list is way more resilient then most other lists due to the veteran/cabal therapy interaction. I played elves and placed 12th (was dream crushed for top 8). I watched Aluren (TTX) vs Joe Losset on miracles, the games were incredible, no mistakes made on either side, I will let TTX describe game three (it was sick!!!). TTX should have been placed higher but had to leave to catch a bus.

When I tested non-veteran Aluren (recruiter of the guard version) vs elves I won most games easily. Once the veteran explorer was added to the deck our games went 55:45 in his favor. It is brutal to see a turn 2 Aluren, all I can do is play reclamation sage in response to the recruiter trigger, and with one reclamation sage it does not happen that often. Also he will just grab eternal witness with recruiter trigger, obtain Aluren and I just cry.

The crazy thing about the veteran build is that no one knows what deck you are playing until Aluren comes down, which by that time is usually GG. Turn one deathrite: could be many decks, Turn one veteran: assume nic fit. Also playing turn two or three shardless agent throws another wrench in deck disguise.

[Weebo]

What is the purpose of stacking gating triggers then moving to Strix? Does that play around something?Elaborating on TTX's answer, you're only really vulnerable to removal when Harpy is on the stack and you have no other bounce creatures in hand. If you don't stack any gating triggers, you end up with Strix on board and Harpy on the stack repeatedly, which leaves openings for removal. Stacking the triggers and ending with Harpy on board means that you can respond to a removal spell on Strix by bouncing and replaying Harpy. My flowchart actually skipped gating all of your bounce creatures back before playing Strix as well, which lets you play around as many removal spells as you have bouncers, because I was after the most straightforward kill. If you have enough life for that it's typically a good step to add in before you start with Strix.

Realistically, as long as you're bouncing and replaying Harpy at least once with the gating trigger on the stack before you think about Strix you're alright (and you'll definitely have to do that at some point). It makes the ending part of the loop a little more complicated, but you're not really giving up any protection if your chain is Harpy → stack gating trigger → bounce Harpy → Harpy → stack gating trigger → Strix → gate Strix → repeat the last 5 steps. What you are doing is giving yourself more of an opportunity to make a mistake and the only thing you're playing around is burn. You're dodging most removal either way and countermagic can catch all of the same parts of the combo either way (though you're almost never going to see anything other than Mindbreak Trap once you get that far - most competent opponents are going to counter Aluren). Unless there's some factor that forces the more complex line I would rather stack a bunch of gating triggers and then bounce Strix in and out until the opponent is dead.

[yoshipwnz]

What do you mean "more resilient?" Do you mean far less consistent but more potentially powerful? We have 4 sac outlets in the entire deck which isn't even close to enough to consistently sacrifice him. Nic Fit runs like 8-10 and still has issues with it. Sure it gives you better perfect hands, but on average it is a 1 mana 1/1 do nothing.

[TTX]

What do you mean "more resilient?" Do you mean far less consistent but more potentially powerful? We have 4 sac outlets in the entire deck which isn't even close to enough to consistently sacrifice him. Nic Fit runs like 8-10 and still has issues with it. Sure it gives you better perfect hands, but on average it is a 1 mana 1/1 do nothing.

More resilient to Wasteland and/or simply not drawing lands. I have played both the normal version and the Veteran version. Veteran adds speed and consistency, a turn 2 win is not unusual in my build. It also improves your game against aggro decks since no one will attack into a Veteran. I only play 3 because yes, it sometimes is a 1/1 do nothing, and I only need to resolve 1 Vet trigger. Also, most Nic Fit shells have the same number of sac outlets as my list...

[adreena]

Would you mind writing up a brief sideboarding guide for your list?

And any changes you would make now?

[TTX]

Here's my list and an updated sideboard guide for those that are interested.
Storm, Lands, Elves, and Reanimator are the toughest match-ups. Overall the deck was amazing at Indy.
I may get around to a tournament report.


4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Veteran Explorer
4 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Cavern Harpy
1 Eternal Witness
2 Arctic Merfolk
3 Shardless Agent
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Parasitic Strix
4 Baleful Strix

4 Aluren
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library
1 Thoughtseize

1 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Polluted Delta
1 Phyrexian Tower

SB: 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 1 Orzhov Pontiff
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Bone Shredder
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 3 Force of Will
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Thoughtseize



Miracles +2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, +1 Phyrexian Revoker, +2 Carpet of Flowers, +1 Abrupt Decay
-3 Veteran Explorer, -1 Thoughtseize, -1 Baleful Strix

Grixis Delver +2 Carpet of Flowers, +1 Abrupt Decay
-1 Reclamation Sage, -1 Thoughtseize, -1 Sylvan Library

BUG/RUG Delvers and Shardless Decks +1 Toxic Deluge, +1 Bone Shredder, +2 Carpet of Flowers, +1 Abrupt Decay
-1 Reclamation Sage, -1 Thoughtseize, -2 Shardless Agent, -1 Sylvan Library

Storm +3 Force of Will, +1 Phyrexian Revoker, +2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, +1 Thoughtseize
-1 Sylvan Library, -3 Abrupt Decay, -1 Reclamation Sage, -2 Veteran Explorer

UB Reanimator +3 Force of Will, +2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, +1 Bone Shredder, +1 Phyrexian Revoker
-3 Abrupt Decay, -2 Shardless Agent, -1 Sylvan Library, -1 Veteran Explorer

Elves +1 Containment Priest, +1 Bone Shredder, +2 Toxic Deluge, +1 Orzhov Pontiff, +1 Abrupt Decay
-1 Reclamation Sage, -1 Sylvan Library, -2 Shardless Agent, -1 Arctic Merfolk, -1 Thoughtseize

D&T +1 Orzhov Pontiff, +1 Abrupt Decay, +1 Bone Shredder, +1 Phyrexian Revoker, +2 Toxic Deluge
-1 Thoughtseize, -1 Cabal Therapy, -1 Shardless Agent, -1 Eternal Witness, -1 Veteran Explorer, -1 Deathrite Shaman

Lands +1 Abrupt Decay, +2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
-2 Shardless Agent, -1 Thoughtseize

Eldrazi +1 Abrupt Decay, +1 Bone Shredder, +2 Toxic Deluge
-1 Eternal Witness, -1 Shardless Agent, -1 Sylvan Library, -1 Thoughtseize

Infect +1 Bone Shredder, +2 Toxic Deluge, +1 Orzhov Pontiff, +1 Abrupt Decay
-1 Reclamation Sage, -1 Thoughtseize, -2 Shardless Agent, -1 Sylvan Library

Nic Fit +1 Containment Priest, +1 Bone Shredder, +1 Toxic Deluge
-3 Veteran Explorer

Burn +1 Abrupt Decay, +2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, +1 Bone Shredder
-1 Thoughtseize, -1 Sylvan Library, -2 Shardless Agent

[fapsik]

Here's my list and an updated sideboard guide for those that are interested.
Storm, Lands, Elves, and Reanimator are the toughest match-ups. Overall the deck was amazing at Indy.
I may get around to a tournament report.


4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Veteran Explorer
4 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Cavern Harpy
1 Eternal Witness
2 Arctic Merfolk
3 Shardless Agent
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Parasitic Strix
4 Baleful Strix

4 Aluren
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library
1 Thoughtseize

1 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Polluted Delta
1 Phyrexian Tower

SB: 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 1 Orzhov Pontiff
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Bone Shredder
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 3 Force of Will
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Thoughtseize



Miracles +2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, +1 Phyrexian Revoker, +2 Carpet of Flowers, +1 Abrupt Decay
-3 Veteran Explorer, -1 Thoughtseize, -1 Baleful Strix

Grixis Delver +2 Carpet of Flowers, +1 Abrupt Decay
-1 Reclamation Sage, -1 Thoughtseize, -1 Sylvan Library

BUG/RUG Delvers and Shardless Decks +1 Toxic Deluge, +1 Bone Shredder, +2 Carpet of Flowers, +1 Abrupt Decay
-1 Reclamation Sage, -1 Thoughtseize, -2 Shardless Agent, -1 Sylvan Library

Storm +3 Force of Will, +1 Phyrexian Revoker, +2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, +1 Thoughtseize
-1 Sylvan Library, -3 Abrupt Decay, -1 Reclamation Sage, -2 Veteran Explorer

UB Reanimator +3 Force of Will, +2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, +1 Bone Shredder, +1 Phyrexian Revoker
-3 Abrupt Decay, -2 Shardless Agent, -1 Sylvan Library, -1 Veteran Explorer

Elves +1 Containment Priest, +1 Bone Shredder, +2 Toxic Deluge, +1 Orzhov Pontiff, +1 Abrupt Decay
-1 Reclamation Sage, -1 Sylvan Library, -2 Shardless Agent, -1 Arctic Merfolk, -1 Thoughtseize

D&T +1 Orzhov Pontiff, +1 Abrupt Decay, +1 Bone Shredder, +1 Phyrexian Revoker, +2 Toxic Deluge
-1 Thoughtseize, -1 Cabal Therapy, -1 Shardless Agent, -1 Eternal Witness, -1 Veteran Explorer, -1 Deathrite Shaman

Lands +1 Abrupt Decay, +2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
-2 Shardless Agent, -1 Thoughtseize

Eldrazi +1 Abrupt Decay, +1 Bone Shredder, +2 Toxic Deluge
-1 Eternal Witness, -1 Shardless Agent, -1 Sylvan Library, -1 Thoughtseize

Infect +1 Bone Shredder, +2 Toxic Deluge, +1 Orzhov Pontiff, +1 Abrupt Decay
-1 Reclamation Sage, -1 Thoughtseize, -2 Shardless Agent, -1 Sylvan Library

Nic Fit +1 Containment Priest, +1 Bone Shredder, +1 Toxic Deluge
-3 Veteran Explorer

Burn +1 Abrupt Decay, +2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, +1 Bone Shredder
-1 Thoughtseize, -1 Sylvan Library, -2 Shardless Agent


Thanks for your decklist, I'm looking forward to the report :-) anyway, I have two questions:

1) How do you feel about the single W-color source (+ DRS), when you play so many white cards in SB?

2) Have you met Eldrazi? What was your strategy towards them? Is 2x Toxic Deluge enough?

[Xod]

Veteran adds speed and consistency, a turn 2 win is not unusual in my build
Just to be sure, your turn 2 win is only possible with Tower + DRS/Vet. Because Vet + Therapy will give you 4 lands but only 3 mana on turn 2. Nevertheless, I'll test your build on Friday.

[TTX]

Thanks for your decklist, I'm looking forward to the report :-) anyway, I have two questions:

1) How do you feel about the single W-color source (+ DRS), when you play so many white cards in SB?

2) Have you met Eldrazi? What was your strategy towards them? Is 2x Toxic Deluge enough?

I haven't had problems with the single Savannah + 4DRS to produce white. I tried a list that ran a single plains as well, and I've seen a list that ran a Tundra and Savannah.
I never felt like I couldn't get white when I needed it. Most of the cards you side more white cards in against are light on land destruction/removal (except Death and Taxes).
The beauty of the list is that you can always play around Wasteland, and when you need a dual land, just search it up and use it. Almost anything you do will result in card advantage.

I haven't played many games against Eldrazi Stompy (Turbo Eldrazi is essentially a cake walk because they have no clock and their disruption is orthogonal to Aluren's win condition).
Chalice, WW, TKS, and Jitte are the problematic cards they play. Chalice is brutal if you're on the draw. But on the play sometimes I just ignore it. TKS is really good if it hits your Harpy or Parasitic Strix for obvious reasons. My general strategy against Eldrazi is largely dependent on the opener. Veteran Explorer is very powerful against them, as it equalizes their sol lands with your basics (nullifies their acceleration) Cabal Therapy is very strong since they have no hand manipulation (a few card advantage sources for them are Matter Reshaper, Reality Smasher, Jitte, and Endbringer [TKS is temporary card advantage]), Baleful Strix is very powerful too. As many of you know, sometimes Eldrazi nut draws that almost no deck can deal with, so I'm not too concerned with this deck, since they also suffer from a huge amount of inconsistency. Bone Shredder is great if you can get it out. Generally attack their hand if possible and attempt to stall the board with creatures until you can cast Aluren. Remember Aluren will allow an Eldrazi pilot to cast Mimics and Reshapers for free. Every other creature, even with Eye of Ugin in play still must be cast at sorcery speed for full retail.


Just to be sure, your turn 2 win is only possible with Tower + DRS/Vet. Because Vet + Therapy will give you 4 lands but only 3 mana on turn 2. Nevertheless, I'll test your build on Friday.

Yes, a turn 2 win is dependent on Phyrexian Tower. However, you will be amazed how much better the deck plays when you use the Veteran/Therapy interaction. Many matches I won were simply due to shredding my opponents hand, then I would chill out with upside down agents and owls.

[Francisco Pires]

Is the recruiter of the guard version better than imperial recruiter?

[TTX]

Yes, because Arctic Merfolk is better than Dreamstalker, Sideboard options are better with white, and White Recruiter is ~10x cheaper than the red Recruiter


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[Tantarus]

Yes, because Arctic Merfolk is better than Dreamstalker, Sideboard options are better with white, and White Recruiter is ~10x cheaper than the red Recruiter


Umm no? Dreamstalker is a solid early blocker. And the white version get owned by some sideboard cards meant for death and taxes such as Dread of Night and Sulfur Elemental.

I think in a world where prices are not an issue, red is the more solid choice.

[J.Black]

Umm no? Dreamstalker is a solid early blocker. And the white version get owned by some sideboard cards meant for death and taxes such as Dread of Night and Sulfur Elemental.

I think in a world where prices are not an issue, red is the more solid choice.

You're right on the first bit but i've not found it to be a common occurence; I think the kicker on the merfolk is about the same value-wise.

Dread of Night and the Elemental are a small bump in the road, like many sideboard cards you have to play against... they certainly don't 'own' the deck.

[TTX]

Stalker is a better blocker, but Merfolk is a better attacker...the real difference is Merfolk does not pass priority when bouncing a Recruiter, or whatever else.
Dread of Night? RecSage
Sulfur Elemental? Bone Shredder.


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[TTX]

Double post

[Weebo]

Stalker being better on defense is very relevant when plan A is a combo kill. I've won games where Stalker walled off an attacker for several turns and Merfolk can't do that. Merfolk's bounce as cost is more or less irrelevant during the combo but much better outside of that and 2 power is worth something when you're on a midrange beats plan. One is not clearly better than the other.

White definitely gets better SB options. I feel that that's less important for a splashed fourth color, though. BUG isn't exactly hurting for options. White is vulnerable to a couple more commonly played SB options, but there are numerous answers to them, they only hit a small portion of the deck, and the deck is based in part around a 4-of tutor.

Cost of one Recruiter over the other has no bearing on how powerful the cards are. It might affect how prevalent each build is and that's it.

I would rather have Dream Stalker than white's board options, so I'm sticking with Imperial.

[Brendelton]

If you want to use red for imperial recruiter (horrible price) go ahead. I have had no troubles beating the imperial recruiter build with elves, delver, storm. The white version has been a pain to play against. Dream stalker is a great blocker and a great argument for running the imperial recruiter build. As of now it seems to be personal preference until more results filter in.

[yoshipwnz]

Yes, because Arctic Merfolk is better than Dreamstalker, Sideboard options are better with white, and White Recruiter is ~10x cheaper than the red Recruiter


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This is laughable because the Red version could run Arctic Merfolk if it wanted, you argue price, and claim 0 specifics about sideboarding. The versions are different, and nobody has run a true "full analysis" of which sideboard is better that I have seen.

[TTX]

This is laughable because the Red version could run Arctic Merfolk if it wanted, you argue price, and claim 0 specifics about sideboarding. The versions are different, and nobody has run a true "full analysis" of which sideboard is better that I have seen.

Whatever dude, play the deck you want. I already gave my list and sideboard guide and I posted the result to back it up. You haven't done anything but troll.


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[Brendelton]

This is laughable because the Red version could run Arctic Merfolk if it wanted, you argue price, and claim 0 specifics about sideboarding. The versions are different, and nobody has run a true "full analysis" of which sideboard is better that I have seen.

I have seen lists running red with arctic merfolk. There is nothing wrong with that, personal preference.

Price is a thing for people who can not afford stupid cardboard. I think we want people to play legacy and get them into the format, but I guess arguing over whose gadget is bigger is more important. If you are so great at Aluren why not post your results? Post your list, your side board guide, and then you can actually start to argue with someone who did all the work already and put up great results. You can also ask questions in an appropriate manner and not be a turd sandwich.

TTX built a different Aluren list and put up results, I think we should appreciate someone who plays this deck and makes significant changes to the overall strategy (nic fit like).

[NATO]

Is there any reason to use reclamation sage over qasali pridemage since we now have access to white?

I will be running Explorer Aluren in an IQ tomorrow and was wondering about a substitute at a lower cost with the added benefit of exalt.

[Weebo]

If you want to use red for imperial recruiter (horrible price) go ahead. I have had no troubles beating the imperial recruiter build with elves, delver, storm. The white version has been a pain to play against. Dream stalker is a great blocker and a great argument for running the imperial recruiter build. As of now it seems to be personal preference until more results filter in.What's been giving you trouble out of the white version?


Is there any reason to use reclamation sage over qasali pridemage since we now have access to white?

I will be running Explorer Aluren in an IQ tomorrow and was wondering about a substitute at a lower cost with the added benefit of exalt.No additional mana investment with Aluren down seems like the big one. You can ignore some disruptive permanents until going off and Sage lets you deal with them for free mid-combo. QP is arguably better outside of combo situations.

[barcode]

Is there any reason to use reclamation sage over qasali pridemage since we now have access to white?

I will be running Explorer Aluren in an IQ tomorrow and was wondering about a substitute at a lower cost with the added benefit of exalt.

Pridemage is WG and needs mana to activate. Reclamation Sage costs 2G and no mana to activate.

[btm10]

after playing the bug opposition deck for 17 matches in paper, i think the massive amount of consistency brought from all the cantrip guys will provide a lot of stability for the aluren deck. i think cartesius' version merits a lot of exploration before changing it.

Since people are debating the merits of the various Recruiters and splashes, I'm going to argue for the straight BUG version now that I 've got a decent number of reps with it. Like the the SCG article on the MODO list pointed out, the deck plays out a lot like Omnitell with Dig Through Time in that while you technically have a many card combo, the bar for winning on the spot is incredibly low once Aluren resolves. Coiling Oracle + Cavern Harpy is a better Yawgmoth's Baragin with Aluren in play since you get to also make mana off of each land you draw. The "worst" card to have alongside the real combo of Aluren + Harpy is Shardless Agent, and even it is pretty good at finding what you're missing.

[yoshipwnz]

Perhaps before you come at me saying I'm ignorant, you actually read more than 3 pages in this thread.

[lavafrogg]

Does anyone have any real testing in with the Shardless version without any recruiters?

[barcode]

I played this deck to the finals of a local 1k yesterday, where I chopped it with a friend. Mid-20s turnout on this Thanksgiving weekend here in Canada.

I played a deck based on kaluma's MTGO decklist (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/466913)'s, swapping a Carpet of Flowers for a Flusterstorm.

I went 3-0 (burn, some deck I forgot - maybe delver? ,burn) then double drew into top 8. Then beat a newbie grixis delver player and a white eldrazi deck to move to the finals.

Garruk Relentless is really really good. I only brought it in for the white Eldrazi semifinal match but it took over both sideboard games.

Dream Stalker being a 1/5 was extremely relevant in multiple matchups. If it was an Arctic Aven I would have been rolled over by a Thought-Knot Seer.

[.dk]

Played Aluren to T8 of an IQ yesterday in Denver. Deck was amazing all day. I played TTX's list from last weekend, with a couple of changes. I really wanted a second white source, so... I played a Tundra as the 61st card. I know, I know... I should have cut Volrath's Stronghold probably, but it was a last minute decision. I also swapped Thoughtseize in the board for Scavenging Ooze. I was expecting more graveyard decks - ended up that there weren't any. Anyway...

Going from memory here, so only a few specific details

R1 - Handily Beat Grixis Delver (I remember him countering veteran explorers Game 2, allowing carpet of flowers to resolve. woo!)

R2 - Barely beat burn in 3. Very very close match.

R3 - ANT. This match I remember. He was the only storm player there today (very odd for Denver, as it's usually pretty heavy on fast combo, but then again I'm usually in those ranks)

Game 1, I kept a pretty good hand - a deathrite, balefix strix, brainstorm, decay, and 3 lands. He's not super fast - probe, into volcanic, into ponder. I'm thinking Grixis Delver maybe? Maybe storm? If it's storm I'm in trouble, but Grixis I'm in good shape. Next turn, he plays a land, and top... either something goofy or ANT... Following turn he gets there off of a very mediocre Ad Nauseum, while I did not manage to draw, strix, or brainstorm into aluren. Die.

Game 2, I keep a great hand with Thalia, Revoker, Recruiter, Aluren, and lands. Just have to hope he doesn't turn 1 me - but it's ANT! So less likely than TES anyway. I play Trop and pass, saying, "Don't turn 1 me bro!" Well, he does. Sea, Rit, Rit, LED, LED, Tendrils for 10. Crack LED's for black and red, flashback past in flames, I'm dead. Well shit. I didn't mull to the Force of Will hand. :(

R4 - Crush 12 post

R5 - Beat Grixis in a closer matchup

R6 - ID

T8 - Same burn player as Round 2. I'm a higher seed, so I'm on the play at least. I believe I mulligan to a hand with Aluren, Recruiter, lands, and brainstorm or something. No decay or therapy though. Maybe he doesn't have Eidolon? Nope, he does. Turn before I'm dead, I cast Aluren and pass. EOT he flashes in another Eidolon - well shit balls. Respond with Recruiter to Rec Sage the other Eidolon. He draws one of 15 cards or whatever to kill be on the next turn.

Game 2, I keep a strong fast hand with Therapy. Therapy away his Eidolon, and proceed to kill him on T3 or 4 or something. Don't remember what exactly.

Game 3, I mulligan to 6, keeping a 2x Brainstorm hand with Strix and Thalia, I think. Hand may have been a trap... I do my best to slow him down, but it's not enough through Goblin Guide, 2 swiftspears, and some burn spells. I made 1 incorrect block with Thalia against a Swiftspear when I should have blocked Goblin Guide saving 1 damage... I would have lived for 1 more turn. But the top of my deck was trash anyway so it wouldn't have actually mattered. Oh well.

Burn seems like a very tough matchup. Do you just mull to fast hands? Worth dedicating another slot to if you're expecting a lot of burn? Kor Firewalker or Auriok Champion or something? Or am I just bad? :)

[barcode]

Burn seems like a very tough matchup. Do you just mull to fast hands? Worth dedicating another slot to if you're expecting a lot of burn? Kor Firewalker or Auriok Champion or something? Or am I just bad? :)

The most important cards in the matchup are Deathrite Shaman and Cabal Therapy. Get rid of Eidolon and then get rid of the 4 mana burn spells. Eat your dead creatures and you'll win.

[.dk]

The most important cards in the matchup are Deathrite Shaman and Cabal Therapy. Get rid of Eidolon and then get rid of the 4 mana burn spells. Eat your dead creatures and you'll win.

That's fair. So probably just need to mulligan better.

[barcode]

Whoops, my shame: four damage burn spells, not the four mana ones.

[.dk]

Whoops, my shame: four damage burn spells, not the four mana ones.

I think we knew what you meant. Didn't see a need to call it out. ;) Vortex isn't a problem when running Rec Sage maindeck, so this makes sense.

[TTX]

Thanks for giving the deck a go, .dk. I'm glad I can reciprocate after you showed me the ropes of TinFins.
The Scavenging Ooze is definitely what you want against burn. I assume you are playing that matchup correctly-assault their creatures and their hand.
It's always close. Thalia usually helps a lot vs. them, and each point counts, I usually end up winning with my life at <5. It may seem strange, but I usually keep
Thoughtseize in against Burn because almost every card they have hits for 2 or more, and stripping an Eidolon is well worth the 2 life up front. Remember
to take advantage of their Goblin Guide by Bstorming to lands on top of deck. Because burn usually needs lands early, don't use a Veteran unless you have to flashback
a therapy (to strip an Eidolon) or you are going to play Aluren and win. Giving Burn two free mountains is too nice to them.

Storm is pretty tough, but luckily Burn and Storm both have similar sideboard cards. You have to be really good with that Therapy...

[.dk]

Thanks for giving the deck a go, .dk. I'm glad I can reciprocate after you showed me the ropes of TinFins.
The Scavenging Ooze is definitely what you want against burn. I assume you are playing that matchup correctly-assault their creatures and their hand.
It's always close. Thalia usually helps a lot vs. them, and each point counts, I usually end up winning with my life at <5. It may seem strange, but I usually keep
Thoughtseize in against Burn because almost every card they have hits for 2 or more, and stripping an Eidolon is well worth the 2 life up front. Remember
to take advantage of their Goblin Guide by Bstorming to lands on top of deck. Because burn usually needs lands early, don't use a Veteran unless you have to flashback
a therapy (to strip an Eidolon) or you are going to play Aluren and win. Giving Burn two free mountains is too nice to them.

Storm is pretty tough, but luckily Burn and Storm both have similar sideboard cards. You have to be really good with that Therapy...

Indeed - the Legacy community is grand, no? :) The deck is a blast (and actually reignited my interest in Legacy), and much better positioned than Storm or Tin Fins right now, I think.

You think Scavenging Ooze is better than some other more dedicated hoser? It's certainly more flexible, as it comes in vs. dredge and reanimator as well. I wasn't sure how powerful it was vs Burn though, and didn't really see a great card to cut for it. I was considering something like Auriok Champion as it is also unreal against Grixis (not that we really need much help there). Maybe that just goes to far.

My side boarding strategy vs. burn was:

-1 Thoughtseize, -1 Sylvan Library, -2 Shardless Agent
+1 Decay, +2 Thalia, +1 Bone Shredder

So, to your post above (and assuming no additional thought seize in the board), leave the Thoughtseize in, maybe bring in Ooze instead of Bone Shredder, and board out a Veteran Explorer? Or maybe bring Bone Shredder in and take out 2 Veteran Explorers. Although, that seems like it may give you too many mana problems vs. their insta-kill of your Deathrites. I was being conservative with my Explorers though - at least a couple games ended with them in my hand. So maybe 2 is right. Will have to test that matchup a bit and see how it goes. We've got a few burn players at my LGS, so it will definitely come up...

Some other things I noted - never drew Volrath's Stronghold all day. That could easily be the second white source, I think. The Tundra I was playing as the 61st card was pretty amazing, allowing me to not have to fetch the single white source into wasteland a couple of times, as well as giving me more flexibility with Brainstorm and Recruiter in hand. If I did end up running a WW casting cost hoser in the board, was considering still running 61 with 3 white sources: Savannah, Scrubland, Tundra, and 0 Volrath's Stronghold.

Aside from that - absolutely loved the deck. Veteran Explorer was gas just about all day - I don't think I'll go back to playing a version without him soon. Didn't get to live the T2 dream with Phyrexian Tower though. :(

[TTX]

Ya, Burn is rough. Bone Shredder ain't great against Burn, if you have access to Scooze out the board that's probably better.
I'm fine with a Burn player hitting my DRS, that's less burn for my face.
I like the Explorers as a 3-of against them, since it accelerates your our game plan.
All I'm saying about that is be careful of Fireblast and Exquisite Firecraft.

I have found Volrath's Stronghold to be amazing at getting through grinding games and board stalls. The obvious
interaction of Baleful Strix and Stronghold, especially with Aluren already in play is a nightmare for almost every deck.
I still have had no issue with a white source, as I usually keep it in the deck unless I absolutely need it.

[DNSolver]

Me and a friend split the BUG version of this deck on MTGO. We admit to blatantly copying Cartesian's decklist and sideboard without having a clue what to do with it. Played three rounds together and went 3-0, then tonight I finished the last two rounds to 5-0 our first league with the deck. Really impressed by how subtly powerful these Alara commons are. By the way, I vote for re-naming this Primer "A Guide to Giving Your Opponent the Bird."

R1: Infect 2-0

R2: Abzan Stoneblade 2-1
G3 our opponent did very little, only tried to stop our combo with a flashed-in Ethersworn Canonist but we comboed on top of it due to our second Cavern Harpy.

R3: Stoneforge+Mentor Miracles 2-0

R4: Predict Miracles 2-1

R5: Grixis Delver 2-1
Notes: Opponent misclicked in G2 and killed his own Gurmag Angler instead of our Baleful Strix with his Dismember. We probably would have lost the game if it was played correctly, and with it the match. However, we still had live draws and weren't completely. G3 I resolved some cantrips and baited out two Dazes, then landed Carpet of Flowers -> Baleful Strix. Carpet did work on fixing our mana alongside our basic lands and we out-valued enough that he conceded.

Overall, the deck feels very powerful and the idiots are surprisingly effective. We may have gotten a large advantage from our opponent Forcing our Cavern Harpy / Parasitic Strix because they thought they were the only copy in our deck. I have no idea how to sideboard and, looking on the thread, I don't see much discussion on the sideboard. So, here are my thoughts:

2x Blue Elemental Blast: seems good for fighting Burn...but that's about it. Maybe against 4 Red blast decks?
2x Echoing Truth: good for tokens, which are the only things that trade favorably with our freaks. Also bounces annoying hatecards.
1x Glissa, the Traitor: This card is a meme for this deck. I'm guessing it gets around something I'm not thinking of. We just boarded it in where we wanted a first strike creature...
2x Cabal Therapy: for combo, didn't play against it
2x Carpet of Flowers: for Delver? Could also be used against Miracles or Shardless BUG or something I guess?
4th Decay: Feels like it could be maindeck, but I didn't play against combo so...
2x Tormod's Crypt: Might not be anti-unfair enough, feels like it could be Surgical Extraction to hit Show and Tell decks potentially...
1x Dread of Night: for Death and Taxes. We brought it in against Miracles to hit Mentor.
1x Jitte: We brought it in for all creature matchups as a random good 2 drop to Transmute for. Powerful.
1x Zuran Orb: Burn and Delver...?

Decklist: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/480328#online

[.dk]

Ya, Burn is rough. Bone Shredder ain't great against Burn, if you have access to Scooze out the board that's probably better.
I'm fine with a Burn player hitting my DRS, that's less burn for my face.
I like the Explorers as a 3-of against them, since it accelerates your our game plan.
All I'm saying about that is be careful of Fireblast and Exquisite Firecraft.

I have found Volrath's Stronghold to be amazing at getting through grinding games and board stalls. The obvious
interaction of Baleful Strix and Stronghold, especially with Aluren already in play is a nightmare for almost every deck.
I still have had no issue with a white source, as I usually keep it in the deck unless I absolutely need it.

Well, I'll try scooze over bone shredder next time. Need to find one more card to board out though if I'm leaving thoughtseize in though.

I guess I haven't run into a super grindy game like you describe yet - admittedly I haven't played this deck much in general. 22 matches total...

[HoneyT]

You're learning .dk. Veteran Explorer is love, Veteran Explorer is life.

See you at Eternal Weekend now huh?

[.dk]

You're learning .dk. Veteran Explorer is love, Veteran Explorer is life.

See you at Eternal Weekend now huh?

lol indeed. Not the first time I've played them - but it's been a while. Last time was back in an old deck called ZeRO when I was playing around with the manadorks. I forgot how amazeballs the card can be. That said... seems WAY better in this deck anyway.

And no, unfortunately. :( New job and moving are getting in the way.

[phazonmutant]

In Seattle, Aluren has won the past 3 1ks, with a mirror in the finals in the last, and two in top 8 in the penultimate. All have been playing the red version with Dreamstalker. I'm not convinced that the sideboard options are a noticeable improvement. It also opens you up to Dread of Night and Massacre. Is the real reason budget?

But on the white version, I really don't get Arctic Merfolk over Quickling. Dreamstalker bounces when it comes into play, so it's not like that should disqualify Quickling. Protecting your creature from removal, blocking Delver, and beating in the air are all extremely relevant. What's the thought there?

I saw earlier that someone claimed Veteran Explorer made the deck "more resilient". That doesn't make much sense - most of your creatures produce value and are good sacrifice fodder. Is adding a creature that gives you lands actually helping more than another discard spell or maindecking a utility creature, or just playing Ponder?

[.dk]

In Seattle, Aluren has won the past 3 1ks, with a mirror in the finals in the last, and two in top 8 in the penultimate. All have been playing the red version with Dreamstalker. I'm not convinced that the sideboard options are a noticeable improvement. It also opens you up to Dread of Night and Massacre. Is the real reason budget?

But on the white version, I really don't get Arctic Merfolk over Quickling. Dreamstalker bounces when it comes into play, so it's not like that should disqualify Quickling. Protecting your creature from removal, blocking Delver, and beating in the air are all extremely relevant. What's the thought there?

I saw earlier that someone claimed Veteran Explorer made the deck "more resilient". That doesn't make much sense - most of your creatures produce value and are good sacrifice fodder. Is adding a creature that gives you lands actually helping more than another discard spell or maindecking a utility creature, or just playing Ponder?

With regards to Merfolk vs. Quickling, I don't really have an opinion. It's nice that they can't respond to the bounce - but I have no idea if that is better than flash and flying.

But as far as explorer goes - it does help in a few ways. It's great acceleration, and is a great blocker. He also makes it a lot easier to cast Aluren through Daze and Pierce after you've stripped Force of Will. And of course there is the god draw of a T2 kill with Tower, but that's not a real reason.

I ran the white version strictly to acces Orzhov Pontiff, Thalia, and containment priest as I have both sets of recruiters. Particularly Thalia and priest though, usually lots of ANT, reanimator, and some elves in the Denver area, and less tarmogoyfs lately which is where Dream Stalker would really shine. Seemed like a better choice to me, really.

As far as dread of night goes - you can always rec sage or decay it. Doesn't seem that backbreaking to me.

[adreena]

Quickling has several problems. If you Shardless into it with an empty board it sacrifices itself. Arctic Merfolk would at least give you a 1/1.

Also if you use Quickling for value to bounce a Shardless or Strix and it's the only thing on your board, your opponent could use removal on your creature, again making the Quickling sac itself. Arctic Merfolk gives them no opportunity to do the same, but of course it can't be flashed in without Aluren the way Quickling can.

Dreamstalker is by far the better card, but I think the sideboard options that white gives are pretty huge.

I took TTX's exact 75 to GP London and played a side event with the deck. I'm new to Legacy and have only played about 20 games of red Aluren on MTGO, so this was my first time playing paper Legacy.

In the first match I got turn 1-ed by Tin Fins, then turn 2-ed in the second game. I kept Brainstorm and DRS in my opening hand, but didn't play the DRS turn 1 out of fear of getting turn 1-ed again. Played the DRS turn 2 but the Brainstorm didn't find a force. Probably should have mulled/played the DRS turn 1.

Match 2 was against what felt like an inexperienced burn player. I've found burn quite easy on mtgo and much the same here, winning 2-0. Cabal Therapy got some decent cards and DRS kept my life up. There was a time where I had a Veteran Explorer in my hand but I didn't want to play it as I had a strix down to block and didn't want to give him mountains for Fireblast.

The third match was against a Storm player. I definitely got lucky as he chain bricked both games. In game 1 he died to DRS after a failed Ad Naus and then died to combo in game 2. I definitely named some pretty bad cards with Cabal Ritual, (naming Dark Ritual instead of LED in g1, and 2 x Cabal Ritual instead of Ponder g2, when I knew full contents of hand) but it worked out. I didn't see any sideboard cards, which is a shame, as this is a match-up surely hugely improved by the white splash.

In the last match I played against Eldrazi. He thought I was on Nic Fit at first after seeing the Veteran Explorer. Cabal Therapy followed and hit his TKS. Got the combo fairly quickly thanks to the lands from the Vet. Game 2 started off fine, taking him down to few cards in hand, but a couple of top decked Reality Smashers finished me off. Game 3 was more grindy, with Volrath's Stronghold and 2 x Veteran Explorers being amazing. Opponent had a quick start with a TKS taking an Aluren and had to fight through Pithing Needle naming Cavern Harpy, but just Recruiter'd for Rec. Sage. A Toxic Deluge hit 3 of my opponent creatures. Ended up with so much mana that I could use Recruiter to find a Bone Shredder, cast it then return whatever I needed with Volrath's Stronghold. Hit double Dismembers with a flashed back Cabal Therapy, which could have stopped the combo. And then shortly after drew into Aluren.

So went 3-1 and liked the deck a lot. I do feel a bit uneasy with the 3 Forces being in the sideboard and there probably not being enough blue sources for them in general. Cartesian's recruiter-less version on mtgo looks interesting for metas where you really need Force main deck.

[Rook1e]

So I finally decided to chime in despite lacking a bit on the experience playing Aluren. I have been playing the deck for the last few weeks and unlike what seems to be the (vocal) majority here I don't like Explorer and have opted for Noble Hierarch instead.

Last night I managed to get in some games against Omni Sneak (the new hybrid thingy), Storm, Elves and Jund and I was generally pleased with the performance of the deck. For reference this is the list I played yesterday:

Creature (26)
2x Arctic Merfolk
4x Baleful Strix
1x Cavern Harpy
4x Deathrite Shaman
1x Eternal Witness
3x Noble Hierarch
1x Parasitic Strix
4x Recruiter of the Guard
4x Shardless Agent

Sorcery (4)
4x Cabal Therapy

Land (19)
2x Bayou
1x Forest
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Polluted Delta
1x Savannah
1x Swamp
2x Tropical Island
2x Underground Sea
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Volrath's Stronghold

Instant (7)
3x Abrupt Decay
4x Brainstorm
2x Lim-Dûl's Vault

Enchantment (4)
4x Aluren

Sideboard (15)
1x Reclamation Sage
2x Carpet of Flowers
1x Children of Korlis
1x Containment Priest
2x Flusterstorm
1x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Meddling Mage
1x Orzhov Pontiff
1x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Toxic Deluge

Prior to yesterday I made the following changes:

+2 Lim-Dûl's Vault
-1 Reclamation Sage (Moved to SB instead of Bone Shredder)
-1 Academy Rector

As mentioned above, I was quite happy with how the deck performed. However, I did miss Rector some times, yet I am still not convinced it is good enough. I am considering trying out an 'Rector Optimized' list including 1 Deed and 1 Library as additional targets for Rector.

I REALLY like Noble in the Explorer Spot as they help our scrawny creatures battle as well as being good without Therapy. Further, the addition of LDV was great. I actually got the idea from the Recruiter-less lists popping up. Cascading into one with Agent just feels great and even just EoT LDV setting up for the win the following turn several times.

However, I am not completely sold on Volrath's Stronghold yet, especially after Shardless BUG begun to up their Wastelands count and more often than not the colorless mana hurts or make for awkward openers.

Well, that was my 2 cent - now tell me how wrong I am...

[solnox]

Hello I'm coming from Nic Fit and saw that you guys sometimes play Vet Exs. Can you guys point me to a list? I have most of the BUG cards and wanted to try something new.

[TTX]

[Deck] Aluren

Here's my list and an updated sideboard guide for those that are interested.

Storm, Lands, Elves, and Reanimator are the toughest match-ups. Overall the deck was amazing at Indy. I top 8d again with this list today at NerdRage. Still very pleased with the deck.


4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Veteran Explorer
4 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Cavern Harpy
1 Eternal Witness
2 Arctic Merfolk
3 Shardless Agent
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Parasitic Strix
4 Baleful Strix

4 Aluren
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library
1 Thoughtseize

1 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Polluted Delta
1 Phyrexian Tower

SB: 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 1 Orzhov Pontiff
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Bone Shredder
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 3 Force of Will
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Thoughtseize






Miracles +2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, +1 Phyrexian Revoker, +2 Carpet of Flowers, +1 Abrupt Decay

-3 Veteran Explorer, -1 Thoughtseize, -1 Baleful Strix



Grixis Delver +2 Carpet of Flowers, +1 Abrupt Decay

-1 Reclamation Sage, -1 Thoughtseize, -1 Sylvan Library



BUG/RUG Delvers and Shardless Decks +1 Toxic Deluge, +1 Bone Shredder, +2 Carpet of Flowers, +1 Abrupt Decay

-1 Reclamation Sage, -1 Thoughtseize, -2 Shardless Agent, -1 Sylvan Library



Storm +3 Force of Will, +1 Phyrexian Revoker, +2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, +1 Thoughtseize

-1 Sylvan Library, -3 Abrupt Decay, -1 Reclamation Sage, -2 Veteran Explorer



UB Reanimator +3 Force of Will, +2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, +1 Bone Shredder, +1 Phyrexian Revoker

-3 Abrupt Decay, -2 Shardless Agent, -1 Sylvan Library, -1 Veteran Explorer



Elves +1 Containment Priest, +1 Bone Shredder, +2 Toxic Deluge, +1 Orzhov Pontiff, +1 Abrupt Decay

-1 Reclamation Sage, -1 Sylvan Library, -2 Shardless Agent, -1 Arctic Merfolk, -1 Thoughtseize



D&T +1 Orzhov Pontiff, +1 Abrupt Decay, +1 Bone Shredder, +1 Phyrexian Revoker, +2 Toxic Deluge

-1 Thoughtseize, -1 Cabal Therapy, -1 Shardless Agent, -1 Eternal Witness, -1 Veteran Explorer, -1 Deathrite Shaman



Lands +1 Abrupt Decay, +2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

-2 Shardless Agent, -1 Thoughtseize



Eldrazi +1 Abrupt Decay, +1 Bone Shredder, +2 Toxic Deluge

-1 Eternal Witness, -1 Shardless Agent, -1 Sylvan Library, -1 Thoughtseize



Infect +1 Bone Shredder, +2 Toxic Deluge, +1 Orzhov Pontiff, +1 Abrupt Decay

-1 Reclamation Sage, -1 Thoughtseize, -2 Shardless Agent, -1 Sylvan Library



Nic Fit +1 Containment Priest, +1 Bone Shredder, +1 Toxic Deluge

-3 Veteran Explorer



Burn +1 Abrupt Decay, +2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, +1 Bone Shredder

-1 Thoughtseize, -1 Sylvan Library, -2 Shardless Agent

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Emtgthesource%2Ecom%2Fforums%2Fshowpost%2Ephp%3Fp%3D972718&share_tid=2599&share_fid=74084&share_type=t&share_pid=972718


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[lordofthepit]

In Seattle, Aluren has won the past 3 1ks, with a mirror in the finals in the last, and two in top 8 in the penultimate. All have been playing the red version with Dreamstalker. I'm not convinced that the sideboard options are a noticeable improvement. It also opens you up to Dread of Night and Massacre. Is the real reason budget?

But on the white version, I really don't get Arctic Merfolk over Quickling. Dreamstalker bounces when it comes into play, so it's not like that should disqualify Quickling. Protecting your creature from removal, blocking Delver, and beating in the air are all extremely relevant. What's the thought there?

I saw earlier that someone claimed Veteran Explorer made the deck "more resilient". That doesn't make much sense - most of your creatures produce value and are good sacrifice fodder. Is adding a creature that gives you lands actually helping more than another discard spell or maindecking a utility creature, or just playing Ponder?

In addition to Dread of Night and Massacre, Sulfur Elemental and Blood Moon are also compelling reasons to play red over white, although there are certainly reasons to play white instead.

During my brief stint dicking around with the deck (white in paper, red online), I am starting to see the merits of Arctic Merfolk over Quickling. Opponents will often board in Pyroblast effects or Spell Snare against Aluren, and the difference between Merfolk and Quickling means sticking two extra 2/2 bodies and an extra value creature in these situations. Granted, Quickling and Dream Stalker have different upsides, and I'm not convinced yet whether one is clearly superior. I will say that in a weird meta where you might expect to see a lot of mirrors, Quickling becomes more attractive.

[.dk]

Burn +1 Abrupt Decay, +2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, +1 Bone Shredder

-1 Thoughtseize, -1 Sylvan Library, -2 Shardless Agent



Not to nitpick, but this is different than what we were talking about above. I realize you don't have Scooze in that list, but you mentioned leaving your Thoughtsieze in. Might that merit actually bringing in the other thoughtseize in your list?

[TTX]

Not to nitpick, but this is different than what we were talking about above. I realize you don't have Scooze in that list, but you mentioned leaving your Thoughtsieze in. Might that merit actually bringing in the other thoughtseize in your list?

Sorry about the inconsistency. You are correct. Yesterday I actually had a key Thoughtseize (snagging a Sulfuric Vortex) that I was not likely to name with Cabal Therapy. Because burn is so fast, and you don't need to guarantee a Veteran dying (they'll gladly attack into a Veteran) perhaps the best course of action is to
+1 Thoughtseize, +2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, +1 Bone Shredder, +1 Abrupt Decay
-1 Sylvan Library, -2 Shardless Agent, -2 Cabal Therapy.

I lost to Thalia/Eldrazi Stompy in the quarterfinals 1-2 yesterday.
Here's the vid https://www.twitch.tv/nerdragegaminglive/v/95404261 begins in minute 50.

[.dk]

Sorry about the inconsistency. You are correct. Yesterday I actually had a key Thoughtseize (snagging a Sulfuric Vortex) that I was not likely to name with Cabal Therapy. Because burn is so fast, and you don't need to guarantee a Veteran dying (they'll gladly attack into a Veteran) perhaps the best course of action is to
+1 Thoughtseize, +2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, +1 Bone Shredder, +1 Abrupt Decay
-1 Sylvan Library, -2 Shardless Agent, -2 Cabal Therapy.

I lost to Thalia/Eldrazi Stompy in the quarterfinals 1-2 yesterday.
Here's the vid https://www.twitch.tv/nerdragegaminglive/v/95404261 begins in minute 50.

Interesting - I see merit in leaving all discard in for the matchup. However, I wouldn't know what else to cut. Is Bone Shredder better than Therapy? Think I might prefer Therapy in that case. I could see something like...
+1 Thoughtseize +2 Thalia +1 Decay
-1 Sylvan Library -2 Shardless Agent -1 Volrath's Stronghold (grinding them out with Stronghold will never come up in this matchup)

Or possibly -1 Veteran Explorer instead of Stronghold.

Regardless, your Veteran Explorer's are always dying in this match, making mana less of a problem.

Just a thought, anyway.

@lordofthepit - I'm not sure you're that worried about Blood Moon if you're running Veteran Explorer. You also have Deathrite as well - seems like between the basics with Explorer and Deathrite, you should be ok regardless. Sulfur Elemental and Dread of Night are indeed problems though. I mean, you can deal with them, but you just don't have that exposure when playing red. I suppose the same is true about Blood Moon, but I don't think that card even hurts us that much to begin with.

[solnox]

Is there an updated primer on how to play this deck? I've been trying it and have been scratching my head. I get the drain with strix kill but so many lines escapes me :(

[sumbahdy]

Hi guys. Longtime lurker here and avid fan of Aluren. I have access to both red and white recruiters and was wondering what is the main reason for the White build? Am willing to give it a try as I am also a fan of Nic Fit. Could it be possible to have a transformational board into full Nic Fit to dodge hate?

Currently in the Imperial build of Martin Goldman-kirst by the way. Trying to figure a sideboard guide as well for an open field. Would you guys recommend the White one or the Red one?

Edit.

I will try to sleeve up TTX's list to get s feel of the White version too

[adreena]

I'm still new to Legacy, but I've been playing red Aluren on mtgo and white in paper.

Red is no doubt better as the game 1 deck, because Dream Stalker is better than Arctic Merfolk. Merfolk does have some advantages, but Dream Stalker being able to bounce any permanent, survive a bolt and block Thought-Knot Seers and goyfs is pretty huge.

Where white has an advantage, and it could be a big one, is the sideboard options. I think Aluren is already good against goyf decks and Eldrazi, so losing a little there for much better sideboard options for your tougher match-ups, could well be worth it.

White gives you access to Thalia, Meddling Mage, Containment Priest and various other cards for the match-ups that are actually tough: faster combo decks than us.

[ParkerLewis]

Hi everyone,

I have a very old (circa 2007...) decklist sleeved up :


// Lands
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [P3] Island (1)
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [R] Bayou
4 [R] Tropical Island
5 [OV] Forest

// Creatures
3 [SH] Wall of Blossoms
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [SH] Spike Feeder
3 [PS] Cavern Harpy
3 [VI] Man-o'-War
4 [UL] Raven Familiar
4 [MI] Wall of Roots

// Spells
4 [TE] Aluren
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
2 [ON] Chain of Vapor
3 [TE] Intuition
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SH] Wall of Blossoms
SB: 1 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 2 [OD] Divert
SB: 2 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 3 [TE] Eladamri's Vineyard
SB: 2 [4E] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [OV] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [DIS] Loaming Shaman


I've always liked the deck and would like to dust it off. After reading some of the last pages, I see that the current main changes / options are :

- The dig engine has changed, revolving around BS+Ponder, Baleful Strix, Agent instead of BS, Intuition, Wall of Blossoms and Raven Familiar.
- Adding a fourth color (either W or R) for Recruiters, or staying BUG
- Playing Veteran Explorer or not
- Parasitic loop has replaced Spike Feeder loop.

TTX's list seems to be a good starting point for a White Recuiter + VetEx option.
Cartesian's list gives an example of a non-Recruiter, non VetEx build.

I have some question, the answer of which I have not found in the ~10 pages i've dug or so, probably because these matters have been resolved too long ago, so please let me say I'm sorry about that. I'd appreciate it if you could enlighten me on any of them, or even just point me to existing answers.

1) Can you explain the main advantages of the new dig engine compared to the old one, and what have historically been the reasons to change it ?

2) What is the main draw to play Recruiters ? I get that they allow you to tutor both bounce critters and Harpy. But getting to 4c instead of 3c is not a neutral decision (even though we do also get more SB options).Are there other less obvious consequences (both good or bad) to this approach ?

3) In the lists posted I tend to see either Recruiter + VetEx or none at all. Are other combinations (recruiters wo VetEx, or VetEx wo recruiter) not as potent and if so, why ?

4) Lists with Recruiter (+ VetEx) lose FoW in the MD. Hasn't that been an issue ?

5) Lists without Recruiters (well, Cartesian's one at least) have lost Therapy MD and the Eternal Witness recursion engine. Hasn't that been an issue ? Does the new kill, being more diffcult to disrupt, makes the FoW/CT recursion through EW less useful ?

5) On the other hand, the new Parasitic kill seems obviously much better than the old one (instant speed kill, no need to to go in the red zone). Just to be sure, are there any other upsides to note that I would be missing ?

I guess these are my main questions, trying to understand the evolutionary changes the game has gone through in the last (gosh, almost 10) years, and how do these new building options fare against each other and against "classic" decklists.

Thanks a lot for your help.

[adreena]

- Can you explain the main advantages of the new dig engine compared to the old one, and what have historically been the reasons to change it ?
- What is the main draw to play Recruiters ? Do they really make the deck better, and in what way ? Getting to 4c instead of 3c is not a neutral decision (even though we do also get more SB options).
- In the lists posted I tend to see either Recruiter + VetEx or none at all. Are other combinations (recruiters wo VetEx, or VetEx wo recruiter) not as potent and if so, why ?
- Lists with Recruiter + VetEx lose FoW in the MD. Hasn't that been an issue ?


Again, I'm new to Legacy, so my knowledge is limited at this point.

For the dig engine, in some cases it's just better cards replacing older ones. Baleful Strix is a huge upgrade over Wall of Blossoms. Raven Familiar digs deeper than Shardless, but Shardless casts the card for free and doesn't have an echo cost to pay. It seems the current version of the deck focuses less on the combo and more on a suite of creatures that can apply more pressure on their own. You don't rely on the combo to win with Aluren, just the chip damage from Deathrite Shaman and the pressure Shardless can put on your opponent can be enough.

Recruiters give you a 2 card kill. Cast Aluren, cast Recruiter for free and then probably win. Without it, you need to do some digging until you get your 2 card combo. Recruiter also lets you tutor up creatures for certain match-ups, such as Reclamation Sage and the various sideboard options. Splashing the 4th colour isn't really a problem, thanks to Deathrite Shaman.

The core version of the deck is Martin Goldman-Kirst's version, played here by Sam Pardee:

http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-pardee-time-legacy-aluren/

But this was before Recruiter of the Guard came out. You can just swap the Recruiters, the dual land and Arctic Merfolk for Dream Stalker to have essentially the same deck. But white definitely gives you some extra sideboard options. I think Veteran Explorer is fairly new and increases the potential speed of the combo.

The BUG version played here: http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-pardee-time-legacy-blue-aluren/

has been putting up very good results on mtgo the past couple of months. I think it's decent, but the Recruiter versions feels a lot more powerful to me.

Losing main deck Force of Wills could be a problem for certain metas. But on mtgo, the top 5 most popular decks are Miracles, Grixis Delver, Eldrazi, Shardless BUG and Storm. You only really want Force against one of those decks. If your meta is more combo orientated, having Force main deck would be a good idea.

Aluren has definitely become more popular in recent months, partly thanks to the printing of Recruiter of the Guard. It's worse match-ups are faster combo decks, but does pretty well against anything else.

[Nonex]

1) Can you explain the main advantages of the new dig engine compared to the old one, and what have historically been the reasons to change it ?

The main role of Wall of Roots and Wall of Blossoms was to block the format's most promiment threats, which at its time were Goblin Lackey, Nimble Mongoose and Werebear. It all changed with Tarmogoyf, which became ubiquitious and starts small but then grows until your Walls can't contain it anymore. The first adaptation was to add Tarmogoyf yourself, which was good as a Wall and as an alternative finisher.

Then Delver of Secrets replaced Tarmogoyf as the mainstream threat, which Baleful Strix answers. And then came Deathrite Shaman, which works as a finisher just like Tarmogoyf, but also serves as a mana accelerator and fixer (taking Wall of Roots' role) and provides some maindeck graveyard hate. Since Deathrite Shaman is here to stay (very ubiquitous too), graveyard shenanigans aren't as reliable anymore, which makes Intuition subpar, Eternal Witness much less hot, and singletons like Volrath's Stronghold undesirable. Unless you play in a meta where people play little to no Deathrite Shamans, you shouldn't count on your graveyard as a resource.

Shardless Agent can dig into the library deeper than Raven Familiar and forces people to confront cards now that shouldn't have come until much later. The board presence is generally larger and stronger and your creatures don't suddenly die for no reason. You lose the flying part, which is a bummer with so many Delvers around, but generally it compensates. The synergy with Sensei's Divining Top is also notorious. That doesn't mean Raven Familiar is 100% outclassed in every list conceivable, but on most of them it would be included as Shardless Agent 5-8 at most, which is rarely the case.


2) What is the main draw to play Recruiters ? I get that they allow you to tutor both bounce critters and Harpy. But getting to 4c instead of 3c is not a neutral decision (even though we do also get more SB options).Are there other less obvious consequences (both good or bad) to this approach ?

When Imperial Recruiter got legalized, Aluren got a kind of a stigma. People saw that on paper Aluren + Recruiter = win, so they didn't look any further. But since Imperial Recruiter was (and is) so expensive, most people didn't try any list with Recruiters because they couldn't afford them. They also saw no point in testing it with proxies, because "why test a deck I'll never be able to play at tournaments?", which has its logic. Thus, the stigma: everyone thought of Recruiter as better than anything else and thus essential in Aluren, but no one had any actual evidence to back it up. As a result, no one played Aluren without Recruiters, because "obviously", those lists were worse. So the few results Aluren got these years were all Recruiter lists from the few players who had them.

With Recruiter of the Guard being a functional copy at a decent price, the deck is getting played quite a bit more, but the stigma largely remains. In fact, it got arguably stronger because now "there's no excuse" to play without Recruiters.

(+) With Aluren, Recruiter alone = win

(-) Forces a fourth color
(-) Almost forces Deathrite Shaman (though Deathrite Shaman is good)
(-) Recruiter itself is lackluster without Aluren
(-) Forces Dream Stalker, Arctic Merfolk or similar creatures, all of them outright bad without Aluren

Except for the Deathrite Shaman part, I found these cons by getting a playset of Imperial Recruiters years ago and trying all variations I could think of. You talk about these cons to people and they mostly ignore them by saying "but it's a two-card combo" or call them irrelevant. It sounds exaggerated, but no one, either on forums or in real life, has ever refuted them to me yet.

That said, Imperial Recruiter is red and red sideboard options are rather limited, according to my experience. Recruiter of the Guard being white opens a new world of possibilities, and that's something I haven't tried yet. Perhaps Recruiter of the Guard isn't that underwhelming by itself thanks to these options. But Legacy literally died in my area and my job gets in the way, so I can't really advance my position.



3) In the lists posted I tend to see either Recruiter + VetEx or none at all. Are other combinations (recruiters wo VetEx, or VetEx wo recruiter) not as potent and if so, why ?

I think people are simply trying different variations to see what works and what doesn't. No specific configuration is blatantly stronger than others yet. The deck is kind of awakening after years of hibernation and has found a world it barely recognizes.



4) Lists with Recruiter (+ VetEx) lose FoW in the MD. Hasn't that been an issue ?

With the release of Abrupt Decay and in conjunction with Cabal Therapy, you can take care of everything that could deserve a FoW from your part. This is true regardless of how you build the deck. Which is a good thing overall, since you've never really wanted to exile anything to FoW.



5) Lists without Recruiters (well, Cartesian's one at least) have lost Therapy MD and the Eternal Witness recursion engine. Hasn't that been an issue ? Does the new kill, being more diffcult to disrupt, makes the FoW/CT recursion through EW less useful ?

I partly answered this before, but the reason you can't rely on your graveyard anymore is Deathrite Shaman. Though to me that's no excuse to stop running Cabal Therapy, I still run the full playset maindeck and never regretted it. You can certainly renounce to graveyard recursion, even if it's just out of necessity.



5) On the other hand, the new Parasitic kill seems obviously much better than the old one (instant speed kill, no need to to go in the red zone). Just to be sure, are there any other upsides to note that I would be missing ?

Actually, instant speed kill and no combat required are irrelevant, though people adopted Parasitic Strix the moment it was printed because they thought it's better. Quick analysis:

Spike Feeder:

(+) Useful by itself with life gain and shenanigans with +1/+1 counters
(+) Immune to Swords to Plowshares and Path to Exile
(+) Killable on demand, useful niche against Dredge to exile copies of Bridge from Below
(+) Reusable outside the combo with Eternal Witness and bounce

(-) Requires Wall of Roots and creatures with bounce abilities to combo
(-) Graveyard shenanigans aren't safe anymore

Parasitic Strix:

(+) Doesn't need anything other than itself and Cavern Harpy to combo

(-) No utility without Aluren
(-) Vulnerable to all forms of removal

Spike Feeder is way better by itself, to the point of never being a dead card. However, Parasitic Strix's upside is enormous, because it allows much more freedom when building lists, and Spike Feeder's pieces fell out of the meta quite a while ago anyway, so Parasitic Strix is the winner in the current circumstances. Also, if you run Shardless Agent, you have a Strix equivalent in Kalastria Healer to cascade directly into it, so Harpy + Agent = win.

[Cartesian]

Nonex: Interesting history lesson, thanks. I did not play Aluren back then.


Also, if you run Shardless Agent, you have a Strix equivalent in Kalastria Healer to cascade directly into it, so Harpy + Agent = win.
Aside from the fact that Kalastria Healer is almost a dead draw without Aluren, this kill is practically impossible on Magic Online because there is no shortcutting, so there will be serious time issues and risk of mouse damage with this solution.

Securing the kill with Harpy + Agent is one the main challenges with "my" version, because sometimes cascading into cantrips alone doesn't get the job done. Generally you want to keep the deck's total number of dead cascade targets as low as possible (that is why I am reluctant to include more than 1-2 Cabal Therapies, because it is dead when comboing). The solution needs to be 2cc, and not be useless without Aluren.
Possible solutions that I have considered, and many of them tested, presented here for your amusement and as a tribute to the depths of Legacy:

Shrine of Piercing Vision
Kalastria Healer
Grapeshot
Qarsi Sadist
Plunge into Darkness
Lim-Dûl's Vault
Diabolic Intent
Living Wish
Whirlpool Rider
Contraband Kingpin
Glint-Nest Crane
Traverse the Ulvenwald

They all have their pros and cons. The first three are not practical on Magic Online.
If there are other options that I have overlooked, please share.

[ParkerLewis]

Thanks a lot for you detailed and thoughtful answers. They are tremendously helpful and interesting.


Since Deathrite Shaman is here to stay (very ubiquitous too), graveyard shenanigans aren't as reliable anymore, which makes Intuition subpar, Eternal Witness much less hot, and singletons like Volrath's Stronghold undesirable. Unless you play in a meta where people play little to no Deathrite Shamans, you shouldn't count on your graveyard as a resource.

Good point : I totally get how it isn't reliable anymore to count on EW to get back a card that would have been sitting sevral turns in the yard. Still, when Aluren is out, our shenanigans (typically recurring FoW and CT to ensure protection) are instant speed, so an opposing DRS shouldn't matter *at this point* (?). Isn't that aspect alone enough to justify EW anymore ?


Shardless Agent can dig into the library deeper than Raven Familiar and forces people to confront cards now that shouldn't have come until much later. The board presence is generally larger and stronger and your creatures don't suddenly die for no reason. You lose the flying part, which is a bummer with so many Delvers around, but generally it compensates. The synergy with Sensei's Divining Top is also notorious. That doesn't mean Raven Familiar is 100% outclassed in every list conceivable, but on most of them it would be included as Shardless Agent 5-8 at most, which is rarely the case.

I think I'm missing something about Agent. Looking, for example, at Cartesian's decklist (maybe it's a bad decklist, I have no idea) :

If you're looking for Aluren : Agent might very well just get a 1-card opprtunity (from Oracle, Baleful Strix), or even 0 (if you get DRS). Best you can *hope* for with Agent is cascading into a BS/ponder, thus really getting only 3 (or 4 with Ponder) opportunities to find Aluren instead of a systematic 4 with RF. This is strictly (far) worse than RF at digging, unless I am missing something.
If you're looking for Parasitic Strix : same thing.
If you're looking for Cavern Harpy : well, at least you might cascade directly into it, but on average it seems like RF would still do a much better job ?

edit :


Securing the kill with Harpy + Agent is one the main challenges with "my" version, because sometimes cascading into cantrips alone doesn't get the job done.

That's exactly what I was fearing and was trying to express above. Bascially I don't see why Agent is more desirable than RF ? Ok, you get to cast the card for free and on the spot (if you're looking for Harpy, otherwise and at best you'll still only get into hand). But RF seems so much better (to me) at actually giving the card I do want that it seems better to me ?


The deck is kind of awakening after years of hibernation and has found a world it barely recognizes.

This is also a good description of what I feel like :)


With the release of Abrupt Decay and in conjunction with Cabal Therapy, you can take care of everything that could deserve a FoW from your part.

I partly answered this before, but the reason you can't rely on your graveyard anymore is Deathrite Shaman. Though to me that's no excuse to stop running Cabal Therapy, I still run the full playset maindeck and never regretted it. You can certainly renounce to graveyard recursion, even if it's just out of necessity.

That's a point I wanted to discuss. Isn't CT less reliable now if DRS is so ubiquitous in the format (going back to the first point you made) ? If you can't reliably count on flashbacking (at the time you would have chosen to do so, not only as forced reaction to a DRS trigger on the stack), it loses a lot of its merits ?


Spike Feeder is way better by itself, to the point of never being a dead card

IIRC, until you have at least Aluren + Harpy + a bouncer and can recur it for infinite life, it's still completely useless. Well ok you can use it once as a blocker once (and gain 4 life from it), but any other creature could also chumpblock ?

You're right it can kill itself to evade being rfg'ed, but that only applies before the combo is out (when it's out, you can do that anyway with any creature), and playing SF before the combo is out seems like asking for trouble anyway (especially since as you pointed out, even sending it to the GY isn't safe anymore due to DRS).

Don't take me wrong, I like the little guy. Also, basically what I liked about the deck is that it was not a combo deck, but rather a control deck (with a potent combo finish). Compared to the old lists, I wonder if new lists haven't shifted more on being combo decks rather than control decks (typically losing FoW or CT). I have no idea if this is simply a natural evolution due to meta etc and it simply is better in today's metagame, or if the initial justification and strength of the deck is being lost this way.

[Cartesian]

Bascially I don't see why Agent is more desirable than RF ? Ok, you get to cast the card for free and on the spot (if you're looking for Harpy, otherwise and at best you'll still only get into hand). But RF seems so much better (to me) at actually giving the card I do want that it seems better to me ?
Shardless Agent, as opposed to any of the Recruiters, is just a very powerful card on its own - cascading into Baleful Strix or Abrupt Decay can win games.
Raven Familiar is somewhere in between Agent and Recruiter, not a real tutor, and not totally useless as a creature either, although the echo cost really is a pain in my experience.

[ParkerLewis]

Ok, I think I see your point. Maybe I was the one thinking too much about the combo when favoring RF over SA. As a control deck, it's not a big deal if it takes a little time to assemble the combo. Hence, it's not a big deal if SA is less powerful than RF at directly finding pieces. SA's advantage however, is its average better impact on the board, thanks notably to the possibility of getting another additional creature (thus giving us more time). No echo cost also means it's easier to reuse (or keep as a future blocker) if you don't already have a Harpy to bounce SA/RF. As emphasized earlier, we are a control deck, so these advantages are more important than being worse at finding the combo pieces in a vacuum, and the consensus has generally shifted from RF to SA. Is that the point being made ? Have I correctly summed up what you meant ?

This probably also was what Nonex was referring to, thanks for helping me connecting the dots.

[AngryTroll]

The Aluren history/summary on this and the last page is excellent. I played around with Recruiter-less Aluren a year ago, but there was very little interest in the deck at all back then, and especially the pure BUG lists.

A few things jump out at me about the BUG list (http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-pardee-time-legacy-blue-aluren/). First of all, the Dimir Infiltrators look really underwhelming. They do grab two of the three pieces of the combo in an uncounterable fashion, but at sorcery speed, and they look completely useless outside of the combo. Second, the three Parasitic Strix in the maindeck seem pretty bad.

What about taking that list and going -3 Parasitic Strix, -2 Dimir Infiltrator, +4 Living Wish (and -1 Cavern Harpy)? The sideboard would then get one of each combo piece, Cavern Harpy, Coiling Oracle, and Parasitic Strix, as well as a few answers, Reclamation Sage, Bone Shredder, and Eternal Witness. Finally, the Living Wishes give you a bit of extra game-one help against Eldrazi, Miracles, and grindy decks in the form of Glissa, the Traitor and Creeping Tar Pit.

Moving to Living Wishes in the maindeck frees up a few extra slots. I'd propose filling them with 2 Vendilion Clique. Clique works as disruption, improves the grindy non-combo option, and serves as a combo piece if you have one extra card in hand.

Proposed List:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
4 Shardless Agent
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Cavern Harpy

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Living Wish
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Aluren

1 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Savannah
3 Bayou
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea

-----Sideboard-----
1 Cavern Harpy
1 Coiling Oracle
1 Parasitic Strix
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Bone Shredder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Glissa, the Traitor
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Meddling Mage
3 Force of Will

Running a Savannah in the maindeck allows us to run Meddling Mage in the sideboard both as a Living Wish target and to board in against Storm and Sneak and Show. You could also run a silver bullet for Show and Tell, if you so desired.

Finally, I'm tempted to play with the Ponder slots. Adding 3 Coiling Oracles and a 21st land in place of these four slots increases the number bodies for Cabal Therapy, increases the number of cards that serve as a combo piece (although the deck already has 4 Strix, 4 Shardless Agent, and 2 Cliques for this role), and is synergistic with Cavern Harpy without Aluren. It also offers some buffer against opposing Liliana of the Veil, which is very relevant against us. The downside, of course, is that the deck is rather heavy in the 2-CC slot.

One last thought: If we run 3 Coiling Oracles, the weakest link are the four copies of Aluren. There are a couple of cards that could fill a similar role in the deck. The most obvious is Jace, the Mind Sculptor. This deck is particularly well set up to protect a Jace while he either digs to assemble the combo or fateseals the opponent. On a crazier approach, there's another deck floating around that uses Opposition with some success; that could also fill the roll as pseudo-Aluren number 5.

[Whippoorwill]

2 copies of Aluren in the top 8 at SCG today including the winner!

Both Recruiters are represented as well (each build is running one or the other).

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=3&start_date=2016-10-23&end_date=2016-10-23&event_ID=36&city=Milwaukee&state=WI&t_num=1&limit=8&start_num=8&start_num=0&limit=16

Edit: Just looked at the bracket and they played each other in the quarterfinals.

[yoshipwnz]

2 copies of Aluren in the top 8 at SCG today including the winner!

Both Recruiters are represented as well (each build is running one or the other).

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=3&start_date=2016-10-23&end_date=2016-10-23&event_ID=36&city=Milwaukee&state=WI&t_num=1&limit=8&start_num=8&start_num=0&limit=16

Edit: Just looked at the bracket and they played each other in the quarterfinals.

Yeah I played vs him final round of Swiss then in QFs as well. He was pretty new to the deck and made a few mistakes that I capitalized on

[emplosion]

One last thought: If we run 3 Coiling Oracles, the weakest link are the four copies of Aluren. There are a couple of cards that could fill a similar role in the deck. The most obvious is Jace, the Mind Sculptor. This deck is particularly well set up to protect a Jace while he either digs to assemble the combo or fateseals the opponent. On a crazier approach, there's another deck floating around that uses Opposition with some success; that could also fill the roll as pseudo-Aluren number 5.

Hi guys, I'm new to posting. Though have lurked for maybe 6 or so months. I've tried all bug lists before aluren reprint while saving for imperial recruiters, then white recruiter came out, and am currently using that. I came to a similar conclusion, and have tried both 2 copies of Jace, and Opposition after seeing the same deck list you are referring to. Opposition to me felt way more powerful. That being said I am playing the new Tamiyo in it's slot, and have been enjoying it.

Unsure weather I like it more than opposition, but it does do something when no creatures are on the field.

[Whippoorwill]

Yeah I played vs him final round of Swiss then in QFs as well. He was pretty new to the deck and made a few mistakes that I capitalized on

Congrats on the win! Wish they would have had video coverage for the top 8, the meta seemed quite diverse based on the top 16 decklists.

[btm10]

I've been working with Cartesian's lists lately and I've started to feel like 20 lands is too many. Flood is the most common reason I'm dropping games, and with 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, and 4 Coiling Oracle as well as additional basics (I've tried as many as 5 and didn't have problems) I feel like the deck can get away with going down to 19 lands.

I'm planning on testing Whirlpool Rider, Vendilion Clique, Glint-Nest Crane, and Kalastria Healer in thr slot. Thoughts?

[sumbahdy]

Yeah I played vs him final round of Swiss then in QFs as well. He was pretty new to the deck and made a few mistakes that I capitalized on


Hey man. Congrats on the win. Would you mind posting your sideboard plan for the deck? How was Blood Braid Elf and what was it for?

[yoshipwnz]

Hey man. Congrats on the win. Would you mind posting your sideboard plan for the deck? How was Blood Braid Elf and what was it for?

If you mean a full sideboarding guide, then I can probably get one up by/during Thanksgiving. If you mean a tournamnet report including the actual sideboarding that I did, I will have one up next week at some point. As for BBE, he's for any grinding matchup (obviously). Shardless, Miracles, Stoneblade, Jund, and whatever other random control matchups that you run into is where it shines because oftentimes the opponents fear Aluren too much and will leave up a way to interact with it and then get BBE'd. It can, of course, come in for other matchups when you have too many cards to come out, but it is there primarily for Shardless and Miracles. Its other uses include matchups where you believe that you will just be attacking them to death rather than combo'ing because you understand your opponent's skill level and how much interaction they have with Aluren itself. It has been very good at what it does, and I plan on continuing to run it.

[lavafrogg]

In the white version: would tidehollow sculler be a good card for disruption as not only does it protect the combo, it also combos with Aluren and strix to remove the opponents hand from the game at instant speed.

[NATO]

If you mean a full sideboarding guide, then I can probably get one up by/during Thanksgiving. If you mean a tournamnet report including the actual sideboarding that I did, I will have one up next week at some point. As for BBE, he's for any grinding matchup (obviously). Shardless, Miracles, Stoneblade, Jund, and whatever other random control matchups that you run into is where it shines because oftentimes the opponents fear Aluren too much and will leave up a way to interact with it and then get BBE'd. It can, of course, come in for other matchups when you have too many cards to come out, but it is there primarily for Shardless and Miracles. Its other uses include matchups where you believe that you will just be attacking them to death rather than combo'ing because you understand your opponent's skill level and how much interaction they have with Aluren itself. It has been very good at what it does, and I plan on continuing to run it.
I like the highlander sideboard, but why no force of will?

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[TTX]

I like the highlander sideboard, but why no force of will?

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I really like yoshipwnz's sideboard too. I agree on removing the FoW, since it's inconsistent to even have the ability to 2-for-1 yourself.
The mainboard 3 Thoughtseizes is very strong against the fast combo matchups anyway, I.
I really like Skylasher, it always catches people off guard.

[Fsk]

Hey guys, i'm very interested in the BUG list talks going on lately since i have been working on the deck for a while. Not sure if it is better than recruiter versions, but pure BUG lists are funnier to combo out with!

This is my latest list, has some nice synergies and is fun to play since you have a lot of possibilities with all the tutoring and the 3 distincts game plans (aluren combo ~50%, aggro/crl ~35%, depths combo ~15%). I'm having very decent results on MTGO with it and i can tell i'm far from playing it perfectly.

Some remarks :
- deck is built to flood out as little as possible (18 lands) but between with deathrite, explorer, traverse, wish and 7 basics it has a very stable manabase (wasteland and bloodmoon are no problem)
- there is a lot of synergy going on when comboing, i rarely whiff when comboing out (FE therapy to sacrifice strix/agent put 2 types in graveyard to activate delirium, you can get mana during your combo by cascading into therapy and/or explorer, allowing you to cast your brainstorm/traverse/wish when you start your combo with no mana, ...)
- dark depths is a cool plan C againt some type of disruption (canonist, chalice, etc ..). I stole quite a few game against eldrazi with it
- deck is somehow budget friendly (only 2 duals, no underground no fow)

Let me know if you want me to explain anything, i would love to see some of you try it and return me some advices :)

-----Deck-----
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Baleful Strix
4 Shardless Agent
1 Cavern Harpy
1 Parasitic Strix
1 Eternal Witness

4 Aluren
4 Brainstorm
4 Traverse The Ulvenwald
4 Living Wish
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay

1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian Stage
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
3 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp

-----Sideboard-----
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian Stage
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cavern Harpy
1 Parasitic Strix
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Bone Shredder
1 Eternal Witness
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Thoughtseize
1 Null Rod

[J.Black]

Damn that looks like a fun list!

I can see it being a real nightmare to play correctly though....

I'll sleeve this up for sure next time we have an FNM legacy and let you know how it goes :wink:

[adreena]

I've played about 10 games on mtgo with it. Definitely a fun take on Aluren. Won several games thanks to the Dark Depths combo. Having 8 ways to tutor for either piece of the combo makes it a real threat for your opponent.

Are there any card decisions you made based on budgetary reasons? Would you play Underground Sea and Force of Will?

I definitely found side-boarding a bit tricky. For example, if you are up against a deck where you want artifact/enchantment removal, do you actually side in the Rec. Sage, or leave it there as a Living Wish target? It seems to me to be easier to pay 2 for wish and grab the sage than to pay 1 for Traverse and hope you have delirium active.

Because of this, the only cards I ever really sided in were Carpet of Flowers, Thoughtseize and Null Rod, giving you effectively a 5 card sideboard. But of course those other 10 are tutor-able with Living Wish.

I'd probably like more hate for faster combo decks, like Storm.

Which match-ups do you side out Veteran Explorers? There's definitely some cases where you help your opponent more than you gain.

Also, is Carpet of Flowers really needed in the sideboard? With 4 Veteran Explorers and so many basics to make you safe from Wasteland, it doesn't feel the deck needs any extra fast mana.

[Absolutflipz]

I've recently picked this deck up in preparation of GP Louisville as the deck is sweet and one with a good Miracles match-up.

I've seen discussion on the Imperial Recruiter vs. Recruiter of the Guard for sideboard options, but I've got a couple of thoughts.

I like the idea of some of the white hate cards like Thalia, Containment Priest and Orzhov Pontiff, while Red could give you access to Magus of the Moon/Blood Moon, Sulfur Elemental, etc, but I'm wondering how feasible it really is to rely on such sideboard cards, whether White or Red, given that your opening plays and ones even on turns 2, 3 are going to heavily require UB followed by G.

Sure, you have many fetches and thereby typically 10-12 ways to get your one White or Red dual, but does that get more in the way of the rest of the deck's gameplan in getting established in the early (i.e. important) turns of the game?

As a note, I've only been able to play with Imperial Recruiters as I've played it online and Guard isnt on there yet.

Also, any thoughts given to Leovold in the board? Seems like another great card where you focus less on the combo and play more like a Shardless BUG deck grinding it out.

[Fry]

Also, any thoughts given to Leovold in the board? Seems like another great card where you focus less on the combo and play more like a Shardless BUG deck grinding it out.

I've actually taken to replacing my Shardless Agents with Leovold, it's crazy good and I absolutely love it. Helps against most things, D&T (Wastelands/Ports/StP), Elves (Glimpse), Combo decks (cantrips), Reanimator (Griselbrand)... It helps against the vast majority of the field in some way.

I put in the Mesmeric Fiend as hand disruption from the board that can be Aluren/Instant speed mid combo, and they can be nasty with Cavern Harpy gating triggers to perma-remove pesky things before you go and get Parasitic if you're up against a lot of spot removal. Fantastic "free" hand disruption over needing additional mana for Therapy, Duress, Thoughtseize, etc.

Main Board:
4 Brainstorm
2 Dream Stalker
1 Parasitic Strix
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Aluren
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Sylvan Library
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Baleful Strix
1 Cavern Harpy
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
1 Taiga
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp

Side Board:
1 Bone Shredder
3 Mesmeric Fiend
1 Minister of Pain
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Ground Seal
2 Krosan Grip
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Null Rod

[fapsik]

Hey Aluren Fellows,

watch this video that covers one of the most important matchups in the current metagame.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=7hjjiU8IjNo

Ross Merriam showed some excelent plays I have to say, that can be useful for us all.

Have fun!

[dameus]

Seems like a 1 of Academy Rector would have served him well. Although he did well already.

[.dk]

Took a slightly modified version of my list here (http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21497&iddeck=164910) to my local last night. I tried replacing all of the Shardless Agents maindeck with Leovold. Holy shit that card is bonkers! It just shuts decks down by itself, and demands removal as soon as it hits - and still replaces itself (except for sweepers). Sucks that it's not recruiterable, but at least based on the games I played, I think it's a fair bit stronger than Shardless.... most of the time. They are both really good against miracles, for different reasons. So I was thinking that I would go to 1 Shardless maindeck (recruiter target), 2 Leovold maindeck, and 1 Leovold and 1 Shardless in the board replacing the Carpet of Flowers. I haven't had mana problems much - and against most decks, it's not so bad to leave in Veteran Explorer.

Anyway, curious if anyone has had tried Leovold much and what your results and thoughts were.

[adreena]

I think the main issue is that you can chain cast Shardless with a Cavern Harpy once Aluren is in play to find the win. Leovold does nothing when you cast him. I can see him as a decent sideboard slot when you want to out-grind blue decks.

[Fry]

Took a slightly modified version of my list here (http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21497&iddeck=164910) to my local last night. I tried replacing all of the Shardless Agents maindeck with Leovold. Holy shit that card is bonkers! It just shuts decks down by itself, and demands removal as soon as it hits - and still replaces itself (except for sweepers). Sucks that it's not recruiterable, but at least based on the games I played, I think it's a fair bit stronger than Shardless.... most of the time. They are both really good against miracles, for different reasons. So I was thinking that I would go to 1 Shardless maindeck (recruiter target), 2 Leovold maindeck, and 1 Leovold and 1 Shardless in the board replacing the Carpet of Flowers. I haven't had mana problems much - and against most decks, it's not so bad to leave in Veteran Explorer.

Anyway, curious if anyone has had tried Leovold much and what your results and thoughts were.

Here's my current list and I have absolutely been loving the 3 Leovold that replaced my 3 Agents. I haven't regretted the switch up even once, the Agent cascade is nice with Brainstorm or Library set up, but it can hit things that just don't matter when you're trying to go off.

Main Board:
4 Brainstorm
2 Dream Stalker
1 Parasitic Strix

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress

4 Imperial Recruiter

4 Aluren
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Sylvan Library

3 Abrupt Decay
4 Baleful Strix
1 Cavern Harpy
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Forest

Side Board:
1 Bone Shredder
2 Mesmeric Fiend
1 Minister of Pain
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Ground Seal
2 Krosan Grip
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Null Rod
1 Tsabo's Web

[.dk]

Here's my current list and I have absolutely been loving the 3 Leovold that replaced my 3 Agents. I haven't regretted the switch up even once, the Agent cascade is nice with Brainstorm or Library set up, but it can hit things that just don't matter when you're trying to go off.

Main Board:
4 Brainstorm
2 Dream Stalker
1 Parasitic Strix

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress

4 Imperial Recruiter

4 Aluren
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Sylvan Library

3 Abrupt Decay
4 Baleful Strix
1 Cavern Harpy
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Forest

Side Board:
1 Bone Shredder
2 Mesmeric Fiend
1 Minister of Pain
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Ground Seal
2 Krosan Grip
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Null Rod
1 Tsabo's Web

I liked the idea of still having a Shardless as a recruiter target, hence the split. Both because it's a different kind of card advantage, as well as the reason adreena mentioned above.

Also, @adreena, Leovold is great outside of blue matchups too. You get value off port, wasteland, punishing fire, flickerwisp, swords to plowshares - just to name a few that are frequently played in non-blue decks. He's also better against Storm (even though he's slow) I think, by turning off cantrips. My take anyway.

[Flower_Power]

Fairly new to the deck, but looking to try out a white splash list, so forgive the noobiness, but since I haven't really been following the deck until now, why have we started running Veteran Explorers, but still not a WHOLE lot of basics? I thought the deck was supposed to be basically Shardless BUG with an "oops I win" button. I suppose Food Chain has that role? But if one were to forgo running Explorers for whatever reason, would it be a good idea to run Forces in the main?

[Cyanhur]

Hi People,

I'm preparing for a tournament, and i need your help to make a choice.

I like a version with veteran it's more explosive combo deck but i think i can not ignore leovold. Someone have deck list with veteran+leovold main deck? or when we have leovold in the deck we can not play a veteran version? what about Garruk Relentless is it fine?

I am training with this version :

http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21497&iddeck=164910

And my question is : For a tournament with around 80-100 people, what is the best version? Because i do not know the dominant meta game.

I am afraid of loosing a piece of the combo, because now we can find a lot of remove all in the sideboard of many deck.


That's why I am interested in a different version, maybe this : http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21627&iddeck=166091

Thanks for your anwser.

Sorry for my bad english:frown:

[Whippoorwill]

And my question is : For a tournament with around 80-100 people, what is the best version?

The best version is going to be the version that you're the most familiar with. You'll win more games by knowing your deck well and opponents not knowing your deck than you will by having a "best" version. I think most of us have played different versions throughout the years with good results.

[ParkerLewis]

I think the main issue is that you can chain cast Shardless with a Cavern Harpy once Aluren is in play to find the win.

Just to put some perspective here. I dont think it's that big a deal.

First, you have to be in the case of having Aluren + Harpy + Shardless without having seen any Recruiter / Parastic Strix (the sum of which is a 5-of). Not seeing a 5-of in the first ~12 cards (a few turns + one BS/Ponder is more) is like a ~30% only. Additionnaly, finding you 1-of Harpy in these 12 cards without a Recruiter means we're already talking about ~6% chance occurence here. Plus you have to have Aluren and a Shardless and we're down to like sub-2% levels.

On a sidenote, Shardless for the win is not a dream solution anyway, as non-Recruiter versions sometimes experience. Shardless cascading chances are typically something like (exact numbers depending on your list but work with me here...)

- 20% DS : 0 chance to get Parasitic
- 20% Baleful Strix : 1 chance to get Parasitic
- 20% Brainstorm : 3 chances to get Parasitic
- 20% Ponder : 4 chances to get Parasitic
- 20% Decay : 0 chance to get Parasitic

So on average you get to see 1.6 cards per life spent. You probably have ~47 cards in Libray at the beginning.

If the kill is played as a 4-of, that means spending 1 life gets ~13.6% (~17% if 4 recruiters + 1 parasitic) chance of getting a card you want [and slightly more after a few times, up to 15-17% when the Library thins a bit].
All in all, these are odds you can be okay with when at 15+ life ((86.4/100)^14 = 13% to fail, which is not glorious), but troublesome at like 10 life ((86.4/100)^9 = 27% chance to fail). Even less and the you might as well flip a coin.

With the kill as a 5-of, it's a bit better though.

[Cyanhur]

The best version is going to be the version that you're the most familiar with. You'll win more games by knowing your deck well and opponents not knowing your deck than you will by having a "best" version. I think most of us have played different versions throughout the years with good results.

Thanks for your anwser.

Is it possible to have your opinion about this deck list :

Ceratures

1 Reclamation Sage
4 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Eternal Witness
1 Parasitic Strix
1 Shardless Agent
2 Arctic Merfolk
1 Cavern Harpy
4 Baleful Strix
3 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman

Spells

4 Aluren 0
1 Sylvan Library
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
1 Thoughtseize

Lands

1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard

1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Bone Shredder
1 Containment Priest
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Force of Will
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Thoughtseize
1 Phyrexian Tower




I have a question beetween artic merfolk and Dream Stalker. Artic merfolk is better no? because when you kick it the opponent can not play something? while Dream Stalker the opponent can destroy the target for bounce?

Thanks for your anwser.

[TTX]

Thanks for your anwser.

Is it possible to have your opinion about this deck list :

Ceratures

1 Reclamation Sage
4 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Eternal Witness
1 Parasitic Strix
1 Shardless Agent
2 Arctic Merfolk
1 Cavern Harpy
4 Baleful Strix
3 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman

Spells

4 Aluren0
1 Sylvan Library
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
1 Thoughtseize

Lands

1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard

1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Bone Shredder
1 Containment Priest
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Force of Will
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Thoughtseize
1 Phyrexian Tower




I have a question beetween artic merfolk and Dream Stalker. Artic merfolk is better no? because when you kick it the opponent can not play something? while Dream Stalker the opponent can destroy the target for bounce?

Thanks for your anwser.

Neither target. Merfolk cannot be responded to. Stalker is a much better blocker. There's a detailed pros and cons list a couple pages back. It comes down to whether you play red or white.

I would not recommend playing FoW in the current configuration, as getting enough other blue cards to pitch can be challenging. Things like Thoughtseize Thalia or Aegis of the Gods, Scooze I think is a more proactive and less card intensive solution.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Whippoorwill]

Thanks for your anwser.

Is it possible to have your opinion about this deck list :

-list-

I have a question beetween artic merfolk and Dream Stalker. Artic merfolk is better no? because when you kick it the opponent can not play something? while Dream Stalker the opponent can destroy the target for bounce?

Thanks for your anwser.

Take my response(s) with a grain of salt since I haven't played Legacy since GP Seattle. Though the meta hasn't really changed since then.

I'm not really a fan of Leovold in the list (at least in the main deck). He doesn't do enough to help you win the game compared to the rest of the creatures. I like him better post-board if you know it's going to be a drawn out game since his card draw will matter more there. I would rather have the extra Shardless Agents since they also can help with the combo.

I'm not sure about the 2nd Phyrexian Tower in the board since I can't think of a situation where you would want to bring it in. If you're worried about the first one getting destroyed, Loam is better since you can chain Loam > Stronghold > Witness to get back any card.

TTX covered the last question.

[.dk]

I'm not really a fan of Leovold in the list (at least in the main deck). He doesn't do enough to help you win the game compared to the rest of the creatures. I like him better post-board if you know it's going to be a drawn out game since his card draw will matter more there. I would rather have the extra Shardless Agents since they also can help with the combo.


Seriously? Have you played with him in the main? He changes the direction of the deck slightly, but I think makes it better as you have 2 must answer cards that attack from different angles. Leovold can practically shut down the game against a lot of decks if gone unanswered - he prevents your opponent from filtering (outside of top), makes their wastelands, ports, discard, and removal spells much worse while beating down for a fair amount of damage. He's drawn force of wills for me, as well as opponent's just casting ponder anyway just to try to filter to an answer the following turn. I've found him to be absolutely stellar and won't leave home without him.

[Whippoorwill]

Seriously? Have you played with him in the main? He changes the direction of the deck slightly, but I think makes it better as you have 2 must answer cards that attack from different angles. Leovold can practically shut down the game against a lot of decks if gone unanswered - he prevents your opponent from filtering (outside of top), makes their wastelands, ports, discard, and removal spells much worse while beating down for a fair amount of damage. He's drawn force of wills for me, as well as opponent's just casting ponder anyway just to try to filter to an answer the following turn. I've found him to be absolutely stellar and won't leave home without him.


Take my response(s) with a grain of salt since I haven't played Legacy since GP Seattle. Though the meta hasn't really changed since then.

I'm sure he'd good, but Aluren is primarily a combo deck, not a midrange deck with a combo backup plan. That's why my preference would be for him in the side and not in the main. If he's really been as good as you say, then you should be running at least 3 to make sure you draw him early. There's really no point in running a single Shardless Agent in the previously mentioned list, so that can change to Leovold #3.

[Fry]

As I stated a little bit ago, I have found Leovold to be an amazing card, well worth dropping my 3 Shardless Agents for them. As just mentioned above, they do all sort of awesome things and I would consider a 4th, but as a Legend and needing other cards to help the combo itself, there isn't really much room for a 4th, mainly the Legend part keeps me away from 4. Single handedly won me a game against Omnitell.

[HSCK]

Has anyone tested the blue version with Leos and Shardless much? I really like the look of it.

[mgrinshpon]

Has anyone tested the blue version with Leos and Shardless much? I really like the look of it.

I tried that in the local weekly legacy event playing against that 64th place GP Chiba UW deck (0-2, losses due to play errors), Jund Sneak Attack (2-1; loss due to Emrakul wiping my board), Grixis Delver (2-0), and Sneak and Show (1-2; losses due to g1 nut hand and mis-boarding games 2 and 3 due to unfamiliarity with both decks). Summary: the deck is amazing and Leovold is amazing. The board could use work, though. Zuran Orb in particular felt awful.

Exact 75:

2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Aluren
4 Baleful Strix
4 Brainstorm
4 Cavern Harpy
2 Coiling Oracle
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Force of Will
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Parasitic Strix
3 Ponder
4 Shardless Agent


1 Abrupt Decay
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Dread of Night
2 Echoing Truth
1 Glissa, the Traitor
2 Hydroblast
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Zuran Orb

[Mapson]

I tried that in the local weekly legacy event playing against that 64th place GP Chiba UW deck (0-2, losses due to play errors)

I'll rematch you whenever you want :cool:

[Cartesian]

The BUG version with 4 Harpy seems to be gaining a lot of steam lately. :)
I scrubbed out in the Legacy Challenge but Hayseed got a 5-2 result. https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-ubg-32441#online
I don't agree with the double basic Forest that I am seeing in some lists. I think double basic Forest is going to be awkward in many situations where you need more blue and black.
And I would include at least 1 Glint-Nest Crane, or something similar (see the list of options I made earlier) to make the Shardless kill more reliable.

[btm10]

I tried the Crane and liked it as a 1-of. I think I said this a few pages back, but there's also some merit to running a Traverse in the main, probably over the third/fourth Ponder. Agent and Strix make it easy to get Delirium, and with Delirium it's basically a one-mana Recruiter.

[Cartesian]

I tried Traverse the Ulvenwald as well, and yes it is certainly a valid option. And it is not useless without delirium, even if the basic land search can feel underwhelming at times.
I want back and added it to the list (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?2599-Deck-Aluren&p=975076&viewfull=1#post975076) of weird solutions.

[DireLemming]

The BUG version with 4 Harpy seems to be gaining a lot of steam lately. :)
[...]
And I would include at least 1 Glint-Nest Crane, or something similar (see the list of options I made earlier) to make the Shardless kill more reliable.
Isn't Kalastria Healer strictly better here? It works with Agent out of the box and as a bonus doesn't target.

[Cartesian]

It gets the job done, but is a mediocre card to say the least when not comboing off. Which is important.
Also, trying to kill someone with that card online would result in repetitive strain injury.

[barcode]

How are folks dealing with Death & Taxes? They're playing their own recruiter now which makes Aluren a real hazard.

I'm thinking about just removing all of the Alurens from the deck for games 2 and 3 and just playing a Shardless BUGr deck. I've also thought about Dread of Night too.

[TTX]

How are folks dealing with Death & Taxes? They're playing their own recruiter now which makes Aluren a real hazard.

I'm thinking about just removing all of the Alurens from the deck for games 2 and 3 and just playing a Shardless BUGr deck. I've also thought about Dread of Night too.

I haven't found their Recruiter to be a liability. The only thing they can search up to meddle with you is Revoker naming Harpy. You can just crack back with Rec Sage on their Revoker. Or you should just side Sulfur Elemental [emoji57] to deal with their Mothers, TGT, and Wisp


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[barcode]

I haven't found their Recruiter to be a liability. The only thing they can search up to meddle with you is Revoker naming Harpy. You can just crack back with Rec Sage on their Revoker. Or you should just side Sulfur Elemental [emoji57] to deal with their Mothers, TGT, and Wisp


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Ethersworn Canonist?

By the time Aluren can get online they will have a clock. Plus, we must answer Mother of Runes (potentially) to get through Canonist.

Sulfur Elemental seems good, I like it. Maybe Dread of Night works better though?

[TTX]

Ethersworn Canonist?

By the time Aluren can get online they will have a clock. Plus, we must answer Mother of Runes (potentially) to get through Canonist.

Sulfur Elemental seems good, I like it. Maybe Dread of Night works better though?

Ah yes, Canonist is answerable with Sage without a Mother in play. I play Orzhov Pontiff in my white version to deal with Mothers.
All I can say is Therapy them into oblivion before casting Aluren.


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[btm10]

I tried Traverse the Ulvenwald as well, and yes it is certainly a valid option. And it is not useless without delirium, even if the basic land search can feel underwhelming at times.
I want back and added it to the list (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?2599-Deck-Aluren&p=975076&viewfull=1#post975076) of weird solutions.

I definitely agree that the find a land mode is relevant. I've tried the deck with as few as 18 lands (4 duals, 5 basics, 9 fetches) and while that felt a little light, 19 + Ponder + Traverse worked pretty well.

[barcode]

Ah yes, Canonist is answerable with Sage without a Mother in play. I play Orzhov Pontiff in my white version to deal with Mothers.
All I can say is Therapy them into oblivion before casting Aluren.


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Is therapy good in the matchup? I've taken the discard spells out for things like Izzet Staticaster, 2 Revokers, Pernicious Deed and a Null Rod.

[TTX]

Is therapy good in the matchup? I've taken the discard spells out for things like Izzet Staticaster, 2 Revokers, Pernicious Deed and a Null Rod.

I keep Therapies in. I take out 2TSieze, 4 Baleful Strix. I put in Containment Priest, Revoker, Pontiff, 2 Toxic Deluge, Scooze.
Against Death and Taxes I go for the t3/t4 kill or prepare for the super long game. Leovold helps a lot against them, making their Ports, Wastes, and StPs cantrip for you. I like Deed a lot against them, I just don't side it.


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[yoshipwnz]

Vs D&T, discard is generally bad. The sideboarding depends on your exact list, but the general philosophy that I use is understanding that you can outgrind them, and combo them eventually if you need to. The ways that they beat you are by: 1) Locking you out with mana denial; 2) Jitte active when we have no way to destroy it; 3) Mirran Crusader hitting us with no chump blockers; 4) Cataclysm (if they decide it is good to bring in). I value mana as the most important part of this MU and am willing to keep mana-heavy hands. In my list, I take out 3 Seize, 1 EWit (nothing dies and using our mana efficiently is important), 1 Library, and 2 Therapies. The number of Therapies depends on how many cards that we bring in. I bring in 1 Disfigure, 1 Dread of Night, 1 Decay, 1 Null Rod, 1 Scavenging Ooze, 1 Reclamation Sage, and 1 Minister of Pain.

[neckfire]

So i finally bought back into legacy last night. Played my first match since 2013.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/524480#online been playing this list.

I have a few questions, I remember enough about alluren to know the lines but I have no clue how to sb this deck. I'm using the old Supreme blue lines for SB out FOW but has anyone done enough work with this deck to know how to sb this version?

[Whitefaces]

So i finally bought back into legacy last night. Played my first match since 2013.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/524480#online been playing this list.

I have a few questions, I remember enough about alluren to know the lines but I have no clue how to sb this deck. I'm using the old Supreme blue lines for SB out FOW but has anyone done enough work with this deck to know how to sb this version?

I'm very interested in some SB advice too as I've just picked up the deck online and almost finished it irl, can't wait to start playing it properly.

A question about Force of Will and Cabal Therapy. Is there a reason to run one main one board, as in, are they pretty interchangeable based on play style or format knowledge? Therapy is my favourite card and I've played it for years in a bunch of different decks so am quite confident with it, would this be enough reason to play it over FoW MD and move them to the board? I played a few two mans and games against some friends last night and they felt pretty horrible (played vs both fair and unfair decks fwiw).

[Cartesian]

So i finally bought back into legacy last night. Played my first match since 2013.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/524480#online been playing this list.

I have a few questions, I remember enough about alluren to know the lines but I have no clue how to sb this deck. I'm using the old Supreme blue lines for SB out FOW but has anyone done enough work with this deck to know how to sb this version?

Welcome to the dark side!
I would say that I have some experience with that particular version of Aluren. Any specific matchups you had in mind?


I'm very interested in some SB advice too as I've just picked up the deck online and almost finished it irl, can't wait to start playing it properly.

A question about Force of Will and Cabal Therapy. Is there a reason to run one main one board, as in, are they pretty interchangeable based on play style or format knowledge? Therapy is my favourite card and I've played it for years in a bunch of different decks so am quite confident with it, would this be enough reason to play it over FoW MD and move them to the board?
A mix of maindeck FoW and Therapy would be fine. The main reason you don't want too many discard spells in this version is that your main winning line involves reapeatedly casting Shardless Agent into some kind of win. And discard spells mostly just cost you 1 life and do nothing else when you are doing that, since your opponent already let you have Aluren and execute your main game plan, so there is no use for discard spells at that point, generally speaking. But 1-2 maindeck discard would be fine, I think.

[neckfire]

Honestly just in general. Like I said I'm rusty when it comes to legacy.
So like the general meta.
Delver, miracles, storm, elves, eldrazi, D&T
stuff like that.

[yoshipwnz]

Why doesn't the BUG version (at least most I've seen) run Kalastria Healer? Am I missing something or is everyone just copying a sub-optimized build? I fully assume I'm missing something.

[neckfire]

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/527906#online
this list went 5-0 today, not sure if the guy who runs it is in the forums but I'm confused about some of the SB choices. okay not so much as confused as just curious,
Powder keg? is it amazing vs eldrazi and stuff? or am I looking to far into it.

[barcode]

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/527906#online
this list went 5-0 today, not sure if the guy who runs it is in the forums but I'm confused about some of the SB choices. okay not so much as confused as just curious,
Powder keg? is it amazing vs eldrazi and stuff? or am I looking to far into it.

That's a value Aluren deck and not comboing?

[btm10]

Why doesn't the BUG version (at least most I've seen) run Kalastria Healer? Am I missing something or is everyone just copying a sub-optimized build? I fully assume I'm missing something.

I think a big part of it is that it puts up more results on MODO than in real life, and on MODO the extra clicks required to combo with Healer are worse than the extra clicks required if you have to Agent into X into Parasitic Strix.

[neckfire]

That's a value Aluren deck and not comboing?

Theres clearly a combo in that deck. In fact its set up to find it easier once you are going

[lordofthepit]

The BUG version with 4 Harpy seems to be gaining a lot of steam lately. :)
I scrubbed out in the Legacy Challenge but Hayseed got a 5-2 result. https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-ubg-32441#online
I don't agree with the double basic Forest that I am seeing in some lists. I think double basic Forest is going to be awkward in many situations where you need more blue and black.
And I would include at least 1 Glint-Nest Crane, or something similar (see the list of options I made earlier) to make the Shardless kill more reliable.

I've had a lot of fun playing your BUG deck. Went 5-0 my very first time playing it, then haven't achieved that result as I tried making more changes. I wonder if I can infer anything about my deckbuilding skills from that! :laugh:

I'm interested in how the Glint-Nest Cranes have treated you. Compared to the Recruiter builds of Aluren, I find that I'm often boarding out the entire combo against aggressive decks because the actual win is much less reliable at lower life totals. In turn, this means that I am much softer to (non-flying) "evasive" creatures like True-Name Nemesis, Mirran Crusader, and anything with a Sword of Fire and Ice. Do you find that the Cranes allow you to reliably combo off even at low life totals?

[neckfire]

I've had a lot of fun playing your BUG deck. Went 5-0 my very first time playing it, then haven't achieved that result as I tried making more changes. I wonder if I can infer anything about my deckbuilding skills from that! :laugh:

I'm interested in how the Glint-Nest Cranes have treated you. Compared to the Recruiter builds of Aluren, I find that I'm often boarding out the entire combo against aggressive decks because the actual win is much less reliable at lower life totals. In turn, this means that I am much softer to (non-flying) "evasive" creatures like True-Name Nemesis, Mirran Crusader, and anything with a Sword of Fire and Ice. Do you find that the Cranes allow you to reliably combo off even at low life totals?

Using the list I linked above with 2 cranes I've gone 4-1 twice with it. Both of my losses I attribute to lack of knowledge of the format as its been 5 years since I've played legacy.
The cranes definitely have helped me with the combo and they actually are a decent creature vs a lot of decks.

[Cartesian]

Honestly just in general. Like I said I'm rusty when it comes to legacy.
So like the general meta.
Delver, miracles, storm, elves, eldrazi, D&T
stuff like that.
Just some basic ideas, none of this is set in stone, just based on my latest list:
Delver: -1 Aluren -1 Harpy -2 FoW +2 Carpet +1 Decay +1 Leovold
Miracles: -1 Ponder -1 FoW +1 Decay +1 Leovold (sometimes other stuff)
Storm: -3 Decay -1 Aluren -1 Harpy +1 Leovold +2 Cabal +2 T.Crypt
Elves: -2 Decay -1 Aluren -1 Harpy +1 Leovold +2 Cabal +1 Powder Keg
Eldrazi: (not sure, still working on this) +1 Decay
D&T: -4 FoW +1 Decay +1 Dread of Night +1 Powder Keg +1 Karakas


https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/527906#online
this list went 5-0 today, not sure if the guy who runs it is in the forums but I'm confused about some of the SB choices. okay not so much as confused as just curious,
Powder keg? is it amazing vs eldrazi and stuff? or am I looking to far into it.
You are sort of looking too far into it.
When I test a card I usually include a least two to make sure that I draw it. Right now I have 1 Powder Keg in the SB (and one Dread of Night).


I've had a lot of fun playing your BUG deck. Went 5-0 my very first time playing it, then haven't achieved that result as I tried making more changes. I wonder if I can infer anything about my deckbuilding skills from that! :laugh:

I'm interested in how the Glint-Nest Cranes have treated you. Compared to the Recruiter builds of Aluren, I find that I'm often boarding out the entire combo against aggressive decks because the actual win is much less reliable at lower life totals. In turn, this means that I am much softer to (non-flying) "evasive" creatures like True-Name Nemesis, Mirran Crusader, and anything with a Sword of Fire and Ice. Do you find that the Cranes allow you to reliably combo off even at low life totals?
Hey man, glad to hear it. I am sure your deckbuilding skills are just fine, it ultimately all comes down to variance and luck :)

The Crane is one of the best options available for the combo because it ignores Thalia/Thorn effects, has a good chance to find one of the two Strixes even at low life total, and it is almost a playable card on its own when you are not trying to combo, which is important for all cards in this version. When cast blindly, it is often just a 1/3 flyer for 2. Not bad, not great. I wish there was something better. Excellent at finding Tormod's Crypt is a bonus.

[lordofthepit]

Just some basic ideas, none of this is set in stone, just based on my latest list:
Eldrazi: (not sure, still working on this) +1 Decay


Any consideration for Meekstone? Would further improve the Delver matchup while stalling TNN in the matchups where your combo is slow to develop.

Also, can you explain Powder Keg over Ratchet Bomb? I can't imagine manlands and artifact lands being a significant issue, and Ratchet Bomb's flexibility seems much stronger unless you're planning to tick it up to four regularly with Aluren still in play.

[neckfire]

Just curious, why powder keg instead of ratchet bomb? I understand functionally same card
Also thanks for the sb guide I've been running the deck and having a blast with it

[neckfire]

Cartesian can you post your latest list? or are you referring to the one you wen't 5-0

[Fry]

Powder Keg can hit Inkmoth Nexus amongst other manlands, Ratchet Bomb cannot. I don't know if that's the consideration between the two, but that's the only reason that I can think of as to use this one over the other.

[Cartesian]

I had not considered Meekstone, maybe I will. Normally I can handle Delver with all the Strixes and Decays, but Meekstone might buy some extra valuable time in some cases.

I use Powder Keg because I want a "many for one" effect in some matchups, Elves and D&T among others. I also use it against Delver. I choose Keg because it can also destroy Inkmoth, and because it does not destroy my own Carpet of Flowers/Dread of Night. But there is no big difference between Ratchet Bomb and Powder Keg, so use what you prefer. Pernicious Deed might also be an option.

I got another 5-0 result last night (five times 2-1, hehe). Same list with a few changes: -1 Crane +1 Traverse the Ulvenwald, SB: -1 Powder Keg +1 Dread of Night.

[Arsenal]

Does Trophy Mage have any room for consideration in that Glint Crane/Coiling Oracle slot? It demonic tutors Shardless and Parasitic.

[neckfire]

Does Trophy Mage have any room for consideration in that Glint Crane/Coiling Oracle slot? It demonic tutors Shardless and Parasitic.

We'd need to have access to the card first to test it if its better than anything else

[Whippoorwill]

I had not considered Meekstone, maybe I will. Normally I can handle Delver with all the Strixes and Decays, but Meekstone might buy some extra valuable time in some cases.

I use Powder Keg because I want a "many for one" effect in some matchups, Elves and D&T among others. I also use it against Delver. I choose Keg because it can also destroy Inkmoth, and because it does not destroy my own Carpet of Flowers/Dread of Night. But there is no big difference between Ratchet Bomb and Powder Keg, so use what you prefer. Pernicious Deed might also be an option.

I got another 5-0 result last night (five times 2-1, hehe). Same list with a few changes: -1 Crane +1 Traverse the Ulvenwald, SB: -1 Powder Keg +1 Dread of Night.

Just wanted to say that I think your list is currently the best Aluren list out there. Being able to remove the 4th color that was there mainly for (either) Recruiter seems like a huge boost for the deck's mana base. Plus it looks like the perfect home for Leovold since everyone is saying how good he is.

[Cartesian]

Just wanted to say that I think your list is currently the best Aluren list out there. Being able to remove the 4th color that was there mainly for (either) Recruiter seems like a huge boost for the deck's mana base. Plus it looks like the perfect home for Leovold since everyone is saying how good he is.
Thanks, man. I don't know if it's the best Aluren but I think it is certainly a valid alternative, and competitive. Yes Leovold is very good, and a godsend for this deck. It forces the opponent to have removal against him, and that same removal is often ineffective against Aluren itself. I am looking at the possibility of going up to 3 maindeck Leovold, but I think that would require going down to 1 Parasitic Strix.

[Philipp2293]

Also started playing the BUG Version. In my 3rd game in my 1st league I already faced the mirror. How do you board there? I assume all Aluren out and just the value game? I won G2 because I had Carpet on the board and could replay my stuff more often :smile:

[Whippoorwill]

Jeff Hoogland is on Aluren for the SCG Player's Championship. He's currently 1-0, but I'm not sure what version he's on.

[neckfire]

Using cartesian BUG lists I just went 4-1 in a league. My loss was to sneak and show because I did not know they play blood moon. I attribute it to lack of knowledge of the format. I could of easily played around it and gotten abrupt decay if need be.
I beat reanimator, elves, miracles and another sneak and show deck.
Leovold was amazing each and every time.

Also to answer what hoogland is on for the PC he is on the white recruiter version. SCG has posted decklists on their website. http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/3945_legacy_decklists.html

[grizzle_grizzle]

I got another 5-0 result last night (five times 2-1, hehe). Same list with a few changes: -1 Crane +1 Traverse the Ulvenwald, SB: -1 Powder Keg +1 Dread of Night.

I picked this list up today to test for the GP. Traverse won me two games tutoring for the combo. I also lost twice to D&T with Dread on the board. I'm brand new to this archetype though, so i have no idea what i'm doing.

[Cartesian]

Also started playing the BUG Version. In my 3rd game in my 1st league I already faced the mirror. How do you board there? I assume all Aluren out and just the value game? I won G2 because I had Carpet on the board and could replay my stuff more often :smile:
Yes, I would do the same.


Using cartesian BUG lists I just went 4-1 in a league. My loss was to sneak and show because I did not know they play blood moon. I attribute it to lack of knowledge of the format. I could of easily played around it and gotten abrupt decay if need be.
I beat reanimator, elves, miracles and another sneak and show deck.
Leovold was amazing each and every time.
Well done.
This version is not particulaly weak to Blood Moon, because we have basics, Deathrite, FoW, and Decay - all maindeck.
Still, Blood Moon gets me too every now and then. Remembering that Blood Moon exists, knowing who might have it, and playing around it is a skill.


I picked this list up today to test for the GP. Traverse won me two games tutoring for the combo. I also lost twice to D&T with Dread on the board. I'm brand new to this archetype though, so i have no idea what i'm doing.
Nice. Which part of the combo did you search for? Could a Dimir Infiltrator have done the same by tutoring for either Harpy or Glint-Nest?
D&T is a difficult matchup. Not necessarily bad, but they attack this deck's strategy from more than one angle. Getting to 4 mana (or 5 under Thalia) is difficult enough. If you land Aluren they still have some tricks left, but many of them don't actually stop you but only slow you down.

[grizzle_grizzle]

Once Dimir Infiltrator would have done it by searching for Glint Nest. the other time i had five mana and needed to cast Aluren + Traverse to win before dying on the back swing. In the D&T m/u it seemed like i was always 1 mana behind. They also just had everything. Both Thalia's, Cannonist, Revoker on Harpy, and Sanctum on 2 mana. it was pretty brutal.

[Cartesian]

OK, yes I also think 1 Traverse might be correct in that slot. It has the extra bonus of finding Karakas in some matchups where that card is key.
On the D&T lock bears:
Thalia 1 makes Aluren cost 5, and you have to pay more life to combo because you can't cast cantrips. The Crane will take it home though if you can hit that.
Thalia 2 does nothing against the combo.
Canonist stops the instant win but you can still gain a lot of value just by playing Harpy on his turn, then Shardless on your own turn.
Revoker is similar in that is does stop the instant win but is does not stop chaining together e.g. Shardless into Harpy, then Shardless into Baleful Strix.
Sanctum on 2 stops Abrupt Decay and nothing else.
All of them together? That does sound rough. In paper tournaments you could try Virtue's Ruin.

[adreena]

What match-ups are the Hydroblasts in the sideboard for? Sneak Attack, Blood Moon, Burn, Big Red decks?

Would Blue Elemental Blast be fine as a replacement?

Also, how are you coping without Toxic Deluge which seems to be a common sideboard card for the deck?

[grizzle_grizzle]

i've now gone 3-2 in two leagues, and 3 of the losses involved being locked out of Abrupt decay + a needle on harpy. I'm kind of feeling like krosan grip or some other piece of removal is necessary. Powder keg has been kind of lackluster, but i definitely see the merit in having an EE like sweeper. I do really like how the BUG build is positioned in a field of Eldrazi and Miracles as those have felt heavily in our favor. (also infinite harpy blocks on inkmoth is GAS). The only change i've made to Cartesian's list is Sylvan library in the SB over Leovold #3, it's been OK. Mostly didn't want to drop another 30+ tix on a 3rd leovold.

[btm10]

D&T and Soldier Stompy are the only decks where I'm scared of being locked off of the combo frequently. I've been running 2 Glint-Nest Crane in my list lately and that's allowed me to just minimize the combo against those decks postboard by bringing in a Jitte and Sword of Fire and Ice of my own alongside the typical SB cards like Minister of Pain and Rec Sage, and they typically can't answer both the combo and fliers + Equipment at the same time. Sedraxis Alchemist provides me with a maindeck out to all sorts of nonsense, too.

[Cartesian]

What match-ups are the Hydroblasts in the sideboard for?
Sneak Attack, Painter, UR Delver, and Burn primarily.
If you don't face any of these decks often, you might want something else, or cut down to 1.

[neckfire]

Sneak Attack, Painter, UR Delver, and Burn primarily.
If you don't face any of these decks often, you might want something else, or cut down to 1.

and yes you can use Blue elemental blast if you do not have hydro. We do not have one of the cards that cares about being able to cast it.

[grizzle_grizzle]

vs omitell both times he cast show and tell I put in aluren. cast a couple of bait spells for his counters and then combo off in response to wish/intuition :cool: this deck is too much

[lordofthepit]

and yes you can use Blue elemental blast if you do not have hydro. We do not have one of the cards that cares about being able to cast it.

BEB is better against Misdirection, which is slightly relevant, but being able to cast Hydroblast for no effect does come up when you cascade into it while comboing off and want to ensure you don't accidentally cascade into it again.

[Cartesian]

Also started playing the BUG Version. In my 3rd game in my 1st league I already faced the mirror. How do you board there? I assume all Aluren out and just the value game? I won G2 because I had Carpet on the board and could replay my stuff more often :smile:
Just a word of caution here: Leovold versus Carpet of Flowers is ridiculous, because Carpet targets the opponent every time it triggers. So the Leovold player gets to draw 1 free card every turn.
And if the Leovold player has no Islands in play he will draw two cards per turn! So if you play Carpet against a deck with Leovold, make sure that you win fast.

[Mapson]

Just a word of caution here: Leovold versus Carpet of Flowers is ridiculous, because Carpet targets the opponent every time it triggers. So the Leovold player gets to draw 1 free card every turn.
And if the Leovold player has no Islands in play he will draw two cards per turn! So if you play Carpet against a deck with Leovold, make sure that you win fast.

minor correction, the carpet of flowers player can choose to use the ability even if it results in 0 mana so they only have to target the leovold player once a turn as it won't trigger in the second main.

this interaction actually just came up at my legacy weekly a few weeks ago

[grizzle_grizzle]

Any advice for the lands match-up? I boarded +Karakas + 2 Tormod's crypt for - FOW -2 baleful. Fetched for basics to avoid getting wasted out of the game, but i kind of felt like a stole one with a combo in game one when my opponent didn't know exactly what i was on. I definitely would have lost g1 if he went for loam-> tabernacle instead of going for Stage/DD the turn before i could play aluren. pulled out g2 w/ a t1 crypt hitting ghost quarter fetched for 3 basics cast leovold then ground it out w/ drs eventually hard cast parasitic styx for the win. Sphere of resistance is a real pain though

[Philipp2293]

Any advice for the lands match-up? I boarded +Karakas + 2 Tormod's crypt for - FOW -2 baleful. Fetched for basics to avoid getting wasted out of the game, but i kind of felt like a stole one with a combo in game one when my opponent didn't know exactly what i was on. I definitely would have lost g1 if he went for loam-> tabernacle instead of going for Stage/DD the turn before i could play aluren. pulled out g2 w/ a t1 crypt hitting ghost quarter fetched for 3 basics cast leovold then ground it out w/ drs eventually hard cast parasitic styx for the win. Sphere of resistance is a real pain though

I would absolutely bring in the 3rd Leovold, as he is a real pain for lands if they don't have a quick kill and have to play a grindy game involving wastelands and punishing fires. Also the Faerie Macabres, it's not great, but sometimes hitting that fire or combo peace is enough time to set up our own combo.

[Cyanhur]

Hi,

I was at the belgium cup with a white recruter version.
I look forward to the bug version because i lost 8 games only without the right color mana. I was totally unlucky.
And when i had some mana that was easy win turn 3 or. 4.

Cartesian, i saw you are testing the creature to convok for artefact. Is-it fine?

[Cartesian]

Cartesian, i saw you are testing the creature to convok for artefact. Is-it fine?
I think of it as a 5th "mini-Aluren" because it can help cast (and recast) artifacts creatures that create card advantage. But it is probably not synergestic enough with the deck as a whole.
Traverse the Ulvenwald or a Coiling Oracle is probably better in that slot.

[grizzle_grizzle]

@philip2293 i would definitely have brought in the 3rd leovold, but i haven't picked it up yet on MODO. That card is 30+ tix, and I wasn't 100% sure if i was playing this at the GP yet or not. I'm going to get it for sure though. i have 3 in paper already

@Cartesian I've just been playing a 2nd crane in the MD instead of traverse or oracle, and it's been alright. I like being able to pitch the first one to FOW and it can kind of help find your jitte or crypts after SB. Do you think that coiling oracle is just better in that slot? i haven't actually played the deck w/ oracle.

[Nocley]

I jammed a few matches with Chief Engineer the other night - was not impressed with it at all. It was just tempting me to overextend more, when I'd rather be digging deeper in that 2 drop slot. Same with Glint-Nest Crane, I didn't like what I was grabbing enough.

I'm running some weird list with a bunch of 1-ofs to force a grind gameplan - that includes a singleton traverse, and a 1-1 split of Kalastria Healer versus Parasitic Strix. The cascade dig seems really nice, given that's one of our most powerful bounces during the combo turn. Weird interaction of note - Kalastria Healer doesn't target against opposing leovolds while Parasitic does.

[dredge90]

Has anyone tried testing living wish anymore?

[Cartesian]

minor correction, the carpet of flowers player can choose to use the ability even if it results in 0 mana so they only have to target the leovold player once a turn as it won't trigger in the second main.
I don't think so? It specifically says "if you haven't added mana..." so if you added zero mana the first time it will trigger again.


Any advice for the lands match-up?
I usually board something like this against Lands:
+1 Karakas +1 Leo +graveyard hate -4 FoW -1 Shardless -1 Decay.


@Cartesian I've just been playing a 2nd crane in the MD instead of traverse or oracle, and it's been alright. I like being able to pitch the first one to FOW and it can kind of help find your jitte or crypts after SB. Do you think that coiling oracle is just better in that slot? i haven't actually played the deck w/ oracle.
I played two Cranes for a while as well, but I think the best number is 1 because it really isn't that good as a creature.
And Coiling Oracle is even worse (as a creature) so I think I prefer 1 Crane + 1 Traverse, which is what I have been playing.


I'm running some weird list with a bunch of 1-ofs to force a grind gameplan - that includes a singleton traverse, and a 1-1 split of Kalastria Healer versus Parasitic Strix. The cascade dig seems really nice, given that's one of our most powerful bounces during the combo turn. Weird interaction of note - Kalastria Healer doesn't target against opposing leovolds while Parasitic does.
Nice, I always wanted to try the Healer but I dislike the thought of drawing it when not on the combo plan.
On the topic of opposing Leovold: This can also be dealt with by playing your own Leovold, then you can target away. :)


Has anyone tried testing living wish anymore?
I have tested Living Wish before, and it is nice and elegant.
The downside is that you decrease the number of maindeck creatures, and risk awkward scenarious where you resolve Aluren with Living Wish in hand, and proceed to lose.
You also have to give up some sideboard slots in order to make Living Wish do something rather than nothing when playing a fair game.

[Mapson]

I don't think so? It specifically says "if you haven't added mana..." so if you added zero mana the first time it will trigger again.


adding zero mana still counts as adding mana.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

adding zero mana still counts as adding mana.


This doesn't seem right. Damage isn't dealt if the damage is reduced to zero (e.g. Umezawa's Jitte), so how does Carpet of Flowers get to say nothing is actually something?

[neckfire]

Just getting a general consensus. When vs storm in the dark what's best to name with cabal therapy? I have to believe I named some loose ones to lose my match today to them.
Also has anyone done any recordings with this deck outside of the cfb one?

[area]

This doesn't seem right. Damage isn't dealt if the damage is reduced to zero (e.g. Umezawa's Jitte), so how does Carpet of Flowers get to say nothing is actually something?

The case of 0 damage being no damage is an explicit rule (119.8), which makes me lean towards zero mana counts as adding mana for Carpet, as I can't find a corresponding rule for mana...

[Whitefaces]

I asked a friend who is a judge.

'If you've already added mana, it won't trigger at all, as the intervening if clause won't be met.'

[Cartesian]

'If you've already added mana, it won't trigger at all, as the intervening if clause won't be met.'
I don't see how that helps us answer the question of whether or not mana has been added, in the case of 0 mana added.
Anyway, I think this discussion belongs in the Rules forum, and not here.

[Whitefaces]

I don't see how that helps us answer the question of whether or not mana has been added, in the case of 0 mana added.
Anyway, I think this discussion belongs in the Rules forum, and not here.

Ah, I misunderstood the question. I'll ask about this.

Maybe, but it's quite relevant to our deck!

EDIT:

'If zero mana is added in main phase one due to the lack of islands the opponent controls, will it trigger in the second main phase even if you choose 'yes' from the may when it triggers first?'

'Adding no mana is the same as not adding mana in this case, it will trigger again in the 2nd main phase.'

[Mapson]

Ah, I misunderstood the question. I'll ask about this.

Maybe, but it's quite relevant to our deck!

EDIT:

'If zero mana is added in main phase one due to the lack of islands the opponent controls, will it trigger in the second main phase even if you choose 'yes' from the may when it triggers first?'

'Adding no mana is the same as not adding mana in this case, it will trigger again in the 2nd main phase.'

It says right in the oracle: You can add less than X mana if you want, even zero.

I'm also a judge btw

[Whitefaces]

It says right in the oracle: You can add less than X mana if you want, even zero.

I'm also a judge btw

Sure, but the confusion was if no mana was added, even zero as chosen, then Carpet will trigger in the second main phase.

[TTX]

I was told by a judge that you must target an opponent every main phase with Carpet. The only way around is if they have Leyline of Sanctity or some effect invalidating your target. The choice of mana addition is irrelevant.


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[Fjaulnir]

Play Enchantress with maindeck Carpets on Modo and can confirm: if you click 'yes' but then proceed to choose '0' as the amount of mana of the chosen colour, it *will* trigger again in the second main phase. (I have actively used adding 0 mana when accidentally on auto-yield/auto-yes, to be able to trigger it again in 2nd main)

Unless there would be a reason why it works "wrong" online, I am 100% sure adding 0 counts as not using Carpet at all.


Eta: RE TTX: if you have used the mana main phase 1 it won't trigger again though on Mtgo. So I think you can't take that statement about triggering every main phase literal.

[Absolutflipz]

Carpet of Flowers has been one of my favorite/best SB cards, but I'm really wondering if it's worth it going forward due to the Leovold interaction and most places you want Carpet, are decks that play Leovold. (doesnt apply to Storm or Miracles)

Leovold appears to be the key in these midrange mirrors, too.

Thoughts?

I also like the BUG version without Recruiter - makes your mana much better and you're not as terrible against wasteland.

[barcode]

I've been testing the straight BUG version and can I just say how miserable Cavern Harpy is in multiples? Yech!!

[btm10]

It becomes pretty great with any of the other non-Deathrite creatures.

[barcode]

It becomes pretty great with any of the other non-Deathrite creatures.

My board was: Every mana producing land. My hand was: 3 Cavern Harpy.

I regret my sideboarding :(

[btm10]

My board was: Every mana producing land. My hand was: 3 Cavern Harpy.

I regret my sideboarding :(


:( Sounds like the problem was more than just the Harpys.

My biggest issue with Aluren is definitely flooding out, though.

[MiraclesWizard]

Joe Lossett is sounding the alarm that Aluren is getting heavy play heading into GP Louisville

[Whitefaces]

Joe Lossett is sounding the alarm that Aluren is getting heavy play heading into GP Louisville

On his stream?

[MiraclesWizard]

On his stream?

twitter yesterday

[barcode]

twitter yesterday

BRB, packing 4 Leovolds main...

(kidding)

[btm10]

Since we're talking about the 3-drops in BUG anyway, what are everyone's thoughts on Vendilion Clique? It's not quite as good at assembling the combo as Shardless Agent since you can't cycle lands away with it, but it gives us a nice little Legends+Karakas/Harpy package alongside Leovold, and gives the BUG version access to a discard-like effect in the main. I've been happy with it as a 1-of, but has anyone else tried it?

[TTX]

Since we're talking about the 3-drops in BUG anyway, what are everyone's thoughts on Vendilion Clique? It's not quite as good at assembling the combo as Shardless Agent since you can't cycle lands away with it, but it gives us a nice little Legends+Karakas/Harpy package alongside Leovold, and gives the BUG version access to a discard-like effect in the main. I've been happy with it as a 1-of, but has anyone else tried it?

I haven't considered it, but it has great synergy with Leovold. Great how it can filter your own hand too.


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[swoop]

Used to play it back in the day. Decent utility and a beater, possibly sb or depending on your meta, MD.

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[mistercakes]

I haven't considered it, but it has great synergy with Leovold. Great how it can filter your own hand too.


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That is a really cool synergy I hadn't noticed. Good catch.

[lordofthepit]

Since we're talking about the 3-drops in BUG anyway, what are everyone's thoughts on Vendilion Clique? It's not quite as good at assembling the combo as Shardless Agent since you can't cycle lands away with it, but it gives us a nice little Legends+Karakas/Harpy package alongside Leovold, and gives the BUG version access to a discard-like effect in the main. I've been happy with it as a 1-of, but has anyone else tried it?

I've run two copies in the SB, over the slots usually dedicated to Cabal Therapy. It's cute when it works, but I've since cut it to make room for other cards. Not completely unreasonable, and I'd probably play that before I play discard.

[ashent]

Hey guys,

I've recently picked up Aluren and while I have a slightly better matchup against Burn with it than my normal deck, Shardless, there have been quite a lot of Burn players showing up recently. I ran into it twice at a 3 rounder today, and back to back last week at a 4 rounder also. What can I do with the sideboard? I'm packing those 2 Hydroblasts, but can I reasonably add two Chills here? My first instinct is to take the 2 Cabal Therapies out and replace them with Chill, which is cheap and cascadable. Any other thoughts? Maybe something I can hit with Traverse?

[Manipulato]

Hey guys,

I've recently picked up Aluren and while I have a slightly better matchup against Burn with it than my normal deck, Shardless, there have been quite a lot of Burn players showing up recently. I ran into it twice at a 3 rounder today, and back to back last week at a 4 rounder also. What can I do with the sideboard? I'm packing those 2 Hydroblasts, but can I reasonably add two Chills here? My first instinct is to take the 2 Cabal Therapies out and replace them with Chill, which is cheap and cascadable. Any other thoughts? Maybe something I can hit with Traverse?

2 Umezawa's Jitte in the SB are really solid vs burn and also vs any other creature based MU.
It's also cascadable with Shardless...

[barcode]

2 Umezawa's Jitte in the SB are really solid vs burn and also vs any other creature based MU.
It's also cascadable with Shardless...

I have been eyeing Umezawa's Jitte for the sideboard for a long time, but it's getting a little packed. Right now I have Engineered Plague in that slot, which does good work for the Recruiter mirror, D&T, Elves, Mentor Miracles and Goblins.

[btm10]

4-0'ed FNM last night with the following list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
4 Cavern Harpy
4 Shardless Agent
2 Glint-Nest Crane
2 Parasitic Strix
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Sedraxis Alchemist
1 Eternal Witness
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Coiling Oracle

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Ponder

4 Aluren

3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Underground Sea

Sideboard
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Minister of Pain
1 Reclaimation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Dismember

Eternal Witness was bad, but it didn't matter since I only played against favorable matchups (4c Loam, Eureka-Tell, Shardless, Nic Fit). Noble Hierarch over the 19th land was great, and I got one turn 3 kill in each match except against Shardless, where I won the value game both times (I did combo him on like turn 10 of game 1, but I was probably going to win on board the next turn anyway). I'm definitely changing up the sideboard a bit, and will be adding 2 copies of Leovold somewhere once I get them. I'm hesitant to add them to the main since I seem to be able to combo on turn 4 very consistently with this list and might be happier going up to 4 Brainstorm/4 Ponder just to maximize consistency in game 1, then have a better grinding plan from the board. The SB equipment package has continued to be great against Delver and D&T in testing.