[deck] RED MIRACLES

[guybrush3]

The core of the deck is the same of the WU decklist but after discussing it a bit, ppl told me it has a different mechanic and probabilly creating a thread dedicated was better.:tongue:
Honestly the control part of it is the same, what is different is the finishing part and the most direct damage aspect of it. Swords are no longer in the list but we have lavamancers (awesome in the actual metagame) to kill small creatures and miracled wraths for bigger ones.
What is really different is the erratic explosion spell. It will hit for a 5 damage force of will, 6 damage wraths, 7 damage time walk, 4 damage jace...thats pretty a lot of cards he interacts with for only 3 mana. Plus it cleans your top deck of lands. I's very good with counterbalance then...
Im sure it will be a different and maybe more versatile deck than the WU one.. still needs tests but I think deservers to be played.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=239985&type=card

So, here my list for the RU miracle deck im gonna play this week and test it a bit:

7 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 volcanic island
3 mountain
4 Misty Rainforest edit: scalding tarns, ops
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Grim lavamancer
3 Erratic Explosion
4 Thunderous Wrath
2 Bonfire of the Damned
1 Temporal Mastery
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Counterbalance
2 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell

i would like to play ancestrall visions but dont know what to cut.

[Countertoplol]

Should probably play a set of scalding tarns.

[FTW]

Counterbalance with:

3 cmc 4
4 cmc 5
4 cmc 6
1 cmc 7

Seems good.

[lochlan]

Counterbalance with:

3 cmc 4
4 cmc 5
4 cmc 6
1 cmc 7

Seems good.

Well, to be fair, the 4cmc spells are Jace, and UWx Miracles runs 3x-4x 6cmc Terminus

I very much agree that the CB curve here is pretty bad, but you're blatantly ignoring what a "normal" CB curve looks like while also implicitly suggesting (rather absurdly) that running JACE THE MIND SCULPTOR is not appropriate in a CB deck. Gimme a break.

[FTW]

Well, to be fair, the 4cmc spells are Jace, and UWx Miracles runs 3x-4x 6cmc Terminus

I very much agree that the CB curve here is pretty bad, but you're blatantly ignoring what a "normal" CB curve looks like while also implicitly suggesting (rather absurdly) that running JACE THE MIND SCULPTOR is not appropriate in a CB deck. Gimme a break.

Re A "normal" CB curve: UW Miracles is not the only CB deck. Counterbalance has been around for years, and a "normal" curve is focused between 1cc-3cc, the usual casting costs of Legacy spells. UW Miracles steps outside that to fit in other tools, tools strong enough to be worth the anti-synergy, but that doesn't make it a "normal" CB curve.

And calm down. I didn't say Jace is not appropriate in CB. Why don't you just accuse me of saying Force of Will is bad in CB? :P It's the total mana curve, not that any one card is bad. You're running Erratic Explosion to exploit your high mana curve for burn, then trying to run Counterbalance at the same time and arguing your curve is low enough...

[lochlan]

You're running Erratic Explosion to exploit your high mana curve for burn, then trying to run Counterbalance at the same time and arguing your curve is low enough...

I'm not playing this deck, do you think I'm the OP or something? Anyway I do personally play a non-Miracles CB deck so it's not useful to lecture about what a CB deck is. But it is pretty obvious that Miracles is the de facto Counterbalance list in the current format, and has been for quite some time. It is, for all intents and purposes, the "normal" Counterbalance deck at the moment.

And, yeah, you didn't say JTMS was bad explicitly, but it was obviously implied that you felt running a 4cmc card was not ok ("3 cmc 4...Seems good."). If you want to backpedal that's fine, you made a mistake. Obviously it's fine to have 3x 4cmc Jace, and I'm glad you agree.

[guybrush3]

Re A "normal" CB curve: UW Miracles is not the only CB deck. Counterbalance has been around for years, and a "normal" curve is focused between 1cc-3cc, the usual casting costs of Legacy spells. UW Miracles steps outside that to fit in other tools, tools strong enough to be worth the anti-synergy, but that doesn't make it a "normal" CB curve.

And calm down. I didn't say Jace is not appropriate in CB. Why don't you just accuse me of saying Force of Will is bad in CB? :P It's the total mana curve, not that any one card is bad. You're running Erratic Explosion to exploit your high mana curve for burn, then trying to run Counterbalance at the same time and arguing your curve is low enough...

The mana curve is the same as the UW miracle deck...maybe apart from 1-2 cards...does this make it unplayable? I don't understand your point the x4 terminus are the x4 wrath if u look at the nonplayable counterbalance synergy cmc cards. If the problem is the time walk then just suggest to cut it out for another low cmc..its a very simple matter...
:wink:


Counterbalance with:

3 cmc 4 = jace, seems very good
4 cmc 5 = force, seems super good
4 cmc 6 = wraths, terminus are well tested in UW,so its ok.
1 cmc 7 = ok, maybe it will create top deck problems...

Seems good.

Im not saying its low enough, but i think it works since its already been tested enough. :cool: So here the problem isnt that CB isnt working.

[Megadeus]

Maybe blood moon here?

[Remy]

Why are snapcaster's being run here? I see little to no actual targets for them, what is the intended target; brainstorm? counterspell? spell snare? because nothing else is plausible to play back.

Could they be replaced with something like Vendilion Clique, although I know the goal here is probably to help fill out the CMC2 slot for Counterbalance I feel Snapcaster is ill conceived and a more suitable replacement could be found. Could Burning Wish be in the consideration pool? Without Black or White the options to grab are somewhat less appealing but still could be interesting. Also as odd as it may seem, Reverberate may have a place here. It would let you copy Miracle spells for RR. and being able to dish out 10 damage off of a Reverberated Miracled Thunderous Wrath seems appealing.

On a side note - Kudos for actually running Temporal Mastery, I've always thought that card saw FAR too little play in Miracle decks.

EDIT:
Just double checked your 'low' curve and found you have
CMC@1 - 16
CMC@2 - 7
CMC@3 - 3
CMC@4 - 3

I feel like the 1 slot is somewhat passably comfortable. However 2-3 is hurting very badly. Could Erratic Explosion be replaced with Price of Progress? Obviously we then need to find a new cmc3 spell but I feel like PoP will be more reliable damage and fill out a more dominant slot on the curve.

[Poron]

in a counterTop shell with Lightning Bolt and Shrapnel Blast, SnapMage has a sense and the (whole deck too..)

[guybrush3]

Why are snapcaster's being run here? I see little to no actual targets for them, what is the intended target; brainstorm? counterspell? spell snare? because nothing else is plausible to play back.

Could they be replaced with something like Vendilion Clique, although I know the goal here is probably to help fill out the CMC2 slot for Counterbalance I feel Snapcaster is ill conceived and a more suitable replacement could be found. Could Burning Wish be in the consideration pool? Without Black or White the options to grab are somewhat less appealing but still could be interesting. Also as odd as it may seem, Reverberate may have a place here. It would let you copy Miracle spells for RR. and being able to dish out 10 damage off of a Reverberated Miracled Thunderous Wrath seems appealing.

On a side note - Kudos for actually running Temporal Mastery, I've always thought that card saw FAR too little play in Miracle decks.

EDIT:
Just double checked your 'low' curve and found you have
CMC@1 - 16
CMC@2 - 7
CMC@3 - 3
CMC@4 - 3

I feel like the 1 slot is somewhat passably comfortable. However 2-3 is hurting very badly. Could Erratic Explosion be replaced with Price of Progress? Obviously we then need to find a new cmc3 spell but I feel like PoP will be more reliable damage and fill out a more dominant slot on the curve.


snapcaster was the only x2 slot i wasnt sure about...i was thinking at a x2 punishing fire instead actually...at least the act as a draw advantage.. burning wish is quite a nice idea. i like it. The only problem is that we are loosing 2 blue cards for FoW...
Blood moon lightning bolts are of course nice..but no slots are free for them.. However I'm not here to say the deck is perfect so adjustments can be made.
Increasing Vengeance is better than Reverberate :) ..but i dont know if will be so abused... ive thought about it too but i wanted to give those x2 slots a card advantage mechanism.Snapcaster is that sort of card that gives u a creature + spell. So if we want to keep it maybe 2 lightning bolts should be added.

About erratic i would not remove it. Is one of the reasons i made this deck. I think its perfect ( dont forget he does better than a fetch in terms of cleaning your top lands). I would rather exchange a couple of 1 cmc to 2 cmc (mana leak/daze for spell snare for instance) and remove 1 grim lavamancer with another 2 cmc spell ... are 7 2cmc too low? i have seen a lot of UW lists were they run 6 - 8 copies of 2cmc cards
Price of progress is a card i would not like ti play due to his matchup against basic land opponent players and cuz it doesnt target creatures... its a strong card but erratic does so much better here.

So a recap to fill up 2cmc slots:
maybe -2 snapcaster mage
-1 grim lavamancer
-2 spell snare
+3 dazes/mana leaks/counterspells
+2 punishing fires

Or maybe if 7 are just ok i would just add a couple to the 3 cmc slots:
-2 snapcaster
+2 blood moon

plus time walk slot could be used for a cmc 3 or 2 to feed better counterbalance (maybe + 1blood moon)... even if i liked the idea of erratic explosion it to kill the opponent with 7 damages.

Ihavent discussed about sideboard but we will have time for that... red elemental blast will be sooooo happy here. :)

ps: I havent mentioned this third red miracle card Reforge the Soul ... but it might deserve his own deck!!! :eek:

[FTW]

I'm not playing this deck, do you think I'm the OP or something? Anyway I do personally play a non-Miracles CB deck so it's not useful to lecture about what a CB deck is. But it is pretty obvious that Miracles is the de facto Counterbalance list in the current format, and has been for quite some time. It is, for all intents and purposes, the "normal" Counterbalance deck at the moment.

There's a difference between being the standard Counterbalance deck of the current meta and being a "normal CB curve". Terminus is strong in Miracles, not because it helps the CB curve at all, but because a 1-mana instant board wipe is so powerful it's worth messing up the curve. That doesn't make it a good reference for what a CB curve should look like in a vaccuum. It just means the card adds a lot more to the deck than it takes away. Cost vs benefit.

But just because Terminus works doesn't make any 6-mana alternate costed card playable in CB. Why not play Spire Golem? 1-mana Lava Axe in a control deck is nowhere near as powerful as Terminus. Miracles just needs to resolve 1 Entreat to win, and can use the rest of its tools like Terminus to control the game. This deck needs to use multiple Wraths/Explosions at the dome to win the game, has less tools to actually kill things. Plus Wrath may not even be able to kill a single Goyf or Knight.


And, yeah, you didn't say JTMS was bad explicitly, but it was obviously implied that you felt running a 4cmc card was not ok ("3 cmc 4...Seems good."). If you want to backpedal that's fine, you made a mistake.

Nope, not at all. No backpedalling. Misquoted. I felt the combination of having 12 cards that cost 4 or more was not ok. That doesn't mean that individually any of them are bad. And sure, Miracles can pull it off, but Miracles also runs better cards.

If I said "4 Goblin Guide + 4 Path to Exile + 4 Wasteland... seems good", that doesn't mean Wasteland or Path are bad. It just means the deck is confused about whether it wants to play mana denial or not.

[FTW]

Punishing Fire might be a good idea. The deck lacks enough burn to both kill creatures and the opponent right now. Punishing Fire helps and rounds out the curve at 2. Just remember that Grove is going to make it a little harder to burn the opponent out.

[guybrush3]

Punishing Fire might be a good idea. The deck lacks enough burn to both kill creatures and the opponent right now. Punishing Fire helps and rounds out the curve at 2. Just remember that Grove is going to make it a little harder to burn the opponent out.

The combo PF and Grow is strong indeed but i might agree with u with the fact that terminus is a super wipe cleaning board and that the 4/4 angels are a pain in the ass... still not sure having grim lavamancers and company will make easy time for the opponent... if not blood moon as a control card would be a must add on. At this point it really only needs testing i think

update list
7 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 volcanic island
3 mountain
4 scalding tarns
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Blood Moon
4 Grim lavamancer
2 Erratic Explosion
4 Thunderous Wrath
2 Bonfire of the Damned
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Counterbalance
2 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell

counterbalance cmc cards :
1cmc 16
2cmc 6 might need at least one more...
3cmc 5

[thecrav]

Your question from the other thread:

Since im playing a red miracle deck without white i wanted to know if 2/3 blood moon would be enough as a terrific controller of the board...i will test them

Your costs are roughly 4:3 blue to red. Being that you've got that much blue, I think 3 is a good number. Two means you won't get one as often as you'd probably want and four could screw you if you don't fetch out your basic Islands early.

[guybrush3]

Your question from the other thread:


Your costs are roughly 4:3 blue to red. Being that you've got that much blue, I think 3 is a good number. Two means you won't get one as often as you'd probably want and four could screw you if you don't fetch out your basic Islands early.

thank you very much, comments always help.Have u tried with magus moons? too fragile? they could block sometimes..Ill like the idea of moons...having grim lavamancer completly kills the chance of an opponent to get around them via shamans... cool
Well ill start to test it tomorrow with friends...hope it will win some games without White. Ill study a sideboard now

[thecrav]

Have u tried with magus moons?

I actually haven't even built this deck yet, I'm still thinking in hypotheticals.

I think Magus is probably worse than Blood moon because there's more maindeck ways to answer a Magus than there are to answer a Blood Moon.

[guybrush3]

I actually haven't even built this deck yet, I'm still thinking in hypotheticals.

I think Magus is probably worse than Blood moon because there's more maindeck ways to answer a Magus than there are to answer a Blood Moon.

yes that is what i thought too of course..well if u liked my/our idea i hope u will build it and let me know...
i was looking at nonbasic based red lands just to splash in a x1 of them and maybe i think there are a few that might be nice..
to choose one:

x1 Helion Crucible no red mana but good token creator , or the Kobold 0/1 one
x1 Madblind Mountain . . . maybe is something we don't want to do..or maybe yes? :)
x2 grove ... if we think to add x3 punishing fires in sideboard....
of course they will turn into mountain with blood moon but that is why i will swap them for mountains from the list..just an idea.

it would be nice if somebody test it on cockatrice

[thecrav]

it would be nice if somebody test it on cockatrice

Be the change you want to see in the world!

[guybrush3]

Be the change you want to see in the world!

Is that a MJ song? :)
...i cant find it to download:tongue:

[thecrav]

Is that a MJ song? :)
...i cant find it to download:tongue:

It is attributed to Ghandi. Basically, what I'm saying is don't complain that no one's testing this deck - go out and test it yourself!

[UnderwaterGuy]

yes that is what i thought too of course..well if u liked my/our idea i hope u will build it and let me know...
i was looking at nonbasic based red lands just to splash in a x1 of them and maybe i think there are a few that might be nice..
to choose one:

x1 Helion Crucible no red mana but good token creator , or the Kobold 0/1 one
x1 Madblind Mountain . . . maybe is something we don't want to do..or maybe yes? :)
x2 grove ... if we think to add x3 punishing fires in sideboard....
of course they will turn into mountain with blood moon but that is why i will swap them for mountains from the list..just an idea.

it would be nice if somebody test it on cockatrice

Madblind Mountain in a countertop deck would be the absolute spiciest combo I've ever seen.


No way you're going to activate it with the only red permanents being 3x Grim Lavamancers unfortunately. Maybe add some Soldiers of Fortune to up the red count ;)

[baghdadbob]

Madblind Mountain in a countertop deck would be the absolute spiciest combo I've ever seen.

Agreed. I didn't even know that card existed. Great find.

[guybrush3]

Agreed. I didn't even know that card existed. Great find.

Thanks,that the reason why i Own and collected all magic lands and sorted them out by color mana source..its so boring to find the right non common lands by searching them since u can't just search easily what color they provide. Yes the shuffle land seems indeed very cool!!!! perfect for counterbalance.

problem are red permanents and of course the fact that blood moon transforms it. But that is a pay we are willing to trade for blood moon of course.
Red permanents are at the moment x4 grim lavamancer...i could just add +1 but not more ...x5 red permanents (if blood moon is not in play) and x2 shuffle lands seems the right choice.. im not sure how many times we will use it but it might be a good add on with not a big drawback "comes into tapped" part" ...so why not?
:smile:
about your suggested x5 card soldier of fortune : lol its val kilmer
about vintage cards i could play x1 Land's Edge :P



Valakut could also possibly be a very nice card too drop for later game..if they destroyed blood moon of course

[Piceli89]

Ciao, Guybrush3.
Some observations point by point:

- 3 Mountains with Counterspell, CB, Jace--> cut to 1.
- Erratic Explosion is a terrible card by itself unless with Draco (and still it would suck, they need to print a 20cmc card). It sucks even more in a deck where you don't want to tap out to burn some damage. It has really nothing to do with the goal of this deck.
- Grim Lavamancer is wrong. You want to minimize the impact of removals cast by your opponent game 1, and he's a slow and fragile spell--> move to sideboard, even Pyroclasm nowadays maindeck can be worth a try.
- Don't try to add cute but terrible cards. Go straight just with good, alredy-proven cards, otherwise it will be a furtherly shitty deck.


Meta-consideration: UR Countertop lacks a strong sweeper and a strong win condition, as much as Terminus and EtA are. Bonfire of the Damned is good but it's really costy, and tempo in Legacy is everything.
UR cards are not good to play the control role optimally.
Also, your Threshold matchup is miserable against a resolved tarmogoyf.

Already been there, tried in every possible form, always failed, the best you can get with such a pool is an aggro-control with Cliques, Snaps, Burn +
Jace, and it will still suck to Goyfs and PFires.

[guybrush3]

Ciao, Guybrush3.
Some observations point by point:

- 3 Mountains with Counterspell, CB, Jace--> cut to 1.
- Erratic Explosion is a terrible card by itself unless with Draco (and still it would suck, they need to print a 20cmc card). It sucks even more in a deck where you don't want to tap out to burn some damage. It has really nothing to do with the goal of this deck.
- Grim Lavamancer is wrong. You want to minimize the impact of removals cast by your opponent game 1, and he's a slow and fragile spell--> move to sideboard, even Pyroclasm nowadays maindeck can be worth a try.
- Don't try to add cute but terrible cards. Go straight just with good, alredy-proven cards, otherwise it will be a furtherly shitty deck.


Meta-consideration: UR Countertop lacks a strong sweeper and a strong win condition, as much as Terminus and EtA are. Bonfire of the Damned is good but it's really costy, and tempo in Legacy is everything.
UR cards are not good to play the control role optimally.
Also, your Threshold matchup is miserable against a resolved tarmogoyf.

Already been there, tried in every possible form, always failed, the best you can get with such a pool is an aggro-control with Cliques, Snaps, Burn +
Jace, and it will still suck to Goyfs and PFires.

SO U ARE PRATICALLY SUGGESTIONG TO CLOSE THIS THREAD? :mad: ... i would appreciate more suggestions,than only "don't use these cards cuz they ll never work" comments ... the point is not playing white here..
i think 20 damages are something this deck would be able to do... those are "the finisher" ...what i could say is to try and remove erratic explosion with some FINISHER CREATURE STUFF

[thecrav]

SO U ARE PRATICALLY SUGGESTIONG TO CLOSE THIS THREAD? :mad: ... i would appreciate more suggestions,than only "don't use these cards cuz they ll never work" comments ... the point is not playing white here..
i think 20 damages are something this deck would be able to do... those are "the finisher" ...what i could say is to try and remove erratic explosion with some FINISHER CREATURE STUFF

I think you're misunderstanding where we're coming from. You are the one who wants to build this deck so you are the one who needs to come up with this ideas.

We're not trying to tell you that your card selections are inherently wrong. Rather, we're trying to explain why we thin they are not the best selections you could be making.

You've complained a lot in this thread. First that no one was testing your ideas, and now that people disagree with your ideas. I suggest you take the initiative to test the deck and see what you think. You may find that we're right or you may find that one of your selections is a sleeper that's gonna break the metagame.

If you choose not to be proactive with the development of a deck, please don't complain that someone else won't brew it for you.

Personally, I find the idea interesting, but I am quite comfortable with my current deck choice, so it's not personally worth the time or mental effort to build a new deck from scratch.

For testing, I recommend you use Cockatrice. You can find instructions for downloading the program and the cards at http://www.woogerworks.com/ . They also run a very popular server. In my experience, there are usually 5-10 matches going on in the middle of the day, with many more once the workday has ended. If you can't find someone to test with, I'm sure much of this community would be happy to help. Try posting in the Community area looking for testing partners. I'd also try the reddit boards /r/MagicTCG /r/cockatrice and /r/playcockatrice

[thecrav]

Also, please note the following:

You're making yourself look like a bit of a fool, both in the way you write (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?7455-Site-Rules-for-MTS&p=174024&viewfull=1#post174024) and your anger.

Also, the information for this specific section of the forum: (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?7455-Site-Rules-for-MTS&p=432532&viewfull=1#post432532)

I put my deck there [New and Developmental Decks section], and everyone said its bad. What the heck?
Don’t be discouraged. Take some time to test out the new ideas the other members have presented, and see how they may improve the deck. If you decide your way was better, you are encouraged to come back with results and show them why they were wrong. One thing to make sure you don’t do, on the other hand, is to insist that your ideas are correct without any kind of testing or results to back them up. Even if an idea seems like it's great on paper, it doesn't always pan out that way in real life.

[guybrush3]

You've complained a lot in this thread. First that no one was testing your ideas
never done that. Im not complaining i just think that if u have to say that something doesnt work u should also give ideas about how to make it work... I havent complained about ppl not testing it. Ive just simply invited if someone would liked to and let us know the results. ....im very confortable with ppl comments im sorry if u read anger behind my words or emoticons..we r just talking about a card game..
However unfortunally this week i havent tested but once against a friend...won 5-2 against a non common eureka deck. ...
Will post more info when testing new cards...
peace