M14 - Slivers - Possible Sliver Queen Reprint - Reserved List?

[Aggro_zombies]

The essay implies that the color pie is balanced or matters. It clearly doesn't; or is only applied when attempting to design Red cards. But has no limitation on the other 4 colors.
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one, then. I think Magic would be a significantly less interesting game if they threw the color pie out the window and let every color do everything equally well. It would be like a terrible version of chess because it would include luck as a factor.

[Mewens]

To be "fair" (irony quotes and a thunderous eyeroll), Wizards has been pushing red's envelope here and there. They tried to make it the color of sorceries for about 4 years (Onslaught - 9th, give or take) and you're seeing cards that push aggression in a way other colors don't get (Helldriver, this new Chandra – she's meant to break creature stalemates).

I think the major problem is twofold:

1) While they've given everyone really efficient and good 1- and 2-drops, they've been reluctant to spread the love on card selection. I don't mind blue being the color of raw card draw, but I'm not entirely sure why other colors – especially red – are still left out in the cold when it comes to sculpting their hands. (The recent red looter effect is a perfect example: casting costs are too high, costs to use are too high. Really, what version of R+D's red is going to want to go in on a 3-drop shitty looter effect?) I actually like Chandra's blind draw, and would welcome it if they put it on a number of other red cards so it was somewhat common – but not at the mana and opportunity costs they seem to like saddling the color with.

2) I don't know why, but many of the latest designers seem to fall for the trap of, "Is this a smart effect? Maybe unusual? MUST BE BLUE!" I mean, Courtly Provocateur? Redirect? Void Stalker? Isn't there a strong argument that those cards should be red or black; red; and white, respectively? There's dozens of these bizarre examples littered throughout recent sets. I mean, Innistrad: I get they didn't want red zombies, but isn't Rooftop Storm flavorfully red: Lightning and free mana? Isn't the effect as written just straight-up black: Free, never-ending small dudes? This isn't a power argument – but if you keep giving blue all the toys, then, yes, the other colors will suffer. Every once in a while, one of these overcosted-but-interesting tools shows promise, and if it's already a blue ability because reasons, that doesn't help black's tournament showings one iota.

A quick note about the exchange re: color pie: There's no reason why each color can't have its own way of doing basic tasks the game demands. Each color should have card selection, combat chops, ways to push the game in a favorable direction and responses to opposing plays. That doesn't mean each color gets Divination; blue can have that, green can keep tutoring for dudes, we could shoehorn scry into some color, etc.

[Aggro_zombies]

I actually think the prime issue with the color pie right now is that blue is still framed as the color that is best at magic...in a game about magic. That means that blue is really the only one that can interact on the stack; all the other colors are either preemptive (black with discard) or focus on effects on the board. This space really needs to be broken up. White can handle Mana Leak- or Force-Spike style taxing counters in small number, blue can get hard counters with or without targeting restrictions, and red can get something along the lines of, "As an additional cost to play spells, players must [do X]" or a Threaten for spells if straight-up counters are too reactive (MaRo has said R&D considers them to be out of flavor for red).

OTOH, you can just make the stack matter less by power creeping the shit out of creatures, which seems to be the route they've chosen instead.

[Koby]

(MaRo has said R&D considers them to be out of flavor for red).

I believe I found the chief among the village of idiots.

[Aggro_zombies]

I believe I found the chief among the village of idiots.
Counters are usually concepted as being a bit more contemplative: you get to pick and choose what can and can't happen, which makes sense in blue but not so much in red. A spell Threaten would be great, though - impulsive Goblin mage sees a sweet new spell and thinks, "Gimme!" and takes it. Red can already manipulate the emotions - there's no reason you can't use that to manipulate your opponent (supposedly a planeswalker, presumably with emotions) into doing something stupid with his spells in a moment of passion.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one, then. I think Magic would be a significantly less interesting game if they threw the color pie out the window and let every color do everything equally well. It would be like a terrible version of chess because it would include luck as a factor.

I agree, but some colors certainly get a larger portion of the color pie, or benefit a lot more from "top-down", "flavor-based" designs. Blue is the largest offender here. Even though hand-disruption isn't in it's part of the color pie it can still do some (V. Clique) because it's the "mind" and "trickery" color. And it can straight up kill creatures too because transforming things into 3/3 tokens is justified by "top-down" design.

Red has tons of mechanics that are horribly underutilized or never pushed because...honestly, I don't know.

*Better random effects. Chaos Warp is an excellent example of randomness done right, much better than the godawful "Flip a coin: If you win, do something. If you lose, lol @ you for wasting cards/mana" style of design. Maybe make cards that are okay if you don't win the flip, but excellent if you do. Make the EV of the effect a little higher than what you might normally get for the cost to offset the fact that you can't control how good it will be. Or get more creative like the aforementioned Warp. If Blue hadn't already gobbled up the idea of a "Polymorph for Spells", I'd say that would make a great Red counterspell. Which segues nicely into...

*More stack interaction. Red is the other color that is supposedly "good with spells"...time to prove it. Give Red some ability to counter Instants/Sorceries unconditionally (like 1R: Counter target Instant or Sorcery), give it more copying effects and maybe even some ability to "steal" Instants/Sorceries off the stack. Blue has enough of the color pie that this won't harm the greediest color nor the integrity of the whole pie.

*More recursion of Instants/Sorceries. Red already does this, as displayed recently with Past in Flames and Charmbreaker Devils...expand upon it.

*Buff Red's looting style. Make the discard a part of the effect rather than a cost. This would basically turn all Red looters into Archivists when you have no cards in hand, but it does seem fitting to reward the very Red activity of going all in.

*More activated abilities that pertain to the combat step. Red is supposed to only be matched/outdone by White in terms of controlling the combat step, but Red's creatures don't really display many interesting abilities to make the combat step more complicated for opponents.

Red has a ton of potential, but Wizards never really explores it in the way they do for Blue and to a lesser degree Green and White.

[Aggro_zombies]

I like the discard first, then draw of red looting - it makes looting firmly in red since it's a gamble whether you'll be upgrading the cards you tossed or not. That said, they could lower the costs on it pretty well.

I like the idea of white as the color of soft counters and casting limitations (i.e., Rule of Law), blue as the color of hard counters, and red as the color of spellfuckery - Forking, Redirecting, stealing, whatever.

[Richard Cheese]

Maybe red's looting could look more like Ideas Unbound, like Chandra's +0 sort of is. It would vibe with the whole raw power/lack of restraint thing.

Also, they could bring back land destruction/manipulation in red if they could just stop printing 8-mana bombs for a couple sets. No chance of that in Theros, but maybe someday? Maybe if someone just bombards Rosewater with some of the stuff from threads like these that pop up with every new set, he'll eventually resign or something.

[TsumiBand]

Red should draw cards and it should be as plan-proof as possible. If it weren't for all the goddamned fetchlands and other shit slowing down the game it could be like

BrainstromThurmond

:r::r: - Sorcery

Shuffle your library, then draw a card, then shuffle your library, then draw a card.

I mean you could just about never guarantee what you'd draw with such a card, so it would be bad with Blue deck stacking junk, but it would be good because it was both Red and card drawing.

Random doesn't have to be an Un-mechanic. I don't know why they shy away from that shit and cost it out of playability.

[JanoschEausH]

Why can't they print an enchantment WITHOUT the word "creature" in the rules text. Thats so boring...

[Lemnear]

Why can't they print an enchantment WITHOUT the word "creature" in the rules text. Thats so boring...

Are you refering to the BBB enchantment, the YmtC crap or the Oath of the Ancient Wood spoilered today? Erm ... you are right on every one of it.

50% of cards in a set are creatures due to playing limited. That and MaRo's Vision of the game being for lil kids crying over their baloths being killed with Fire, Lightning and Black Magic, is the reason everything in M:TG today evolves around creatures ... and because the concept of "countering" isn't clear as day to lil boys and they complain full-throat at prereleases that you are cheating on them Casting a counterspell on their fatass creature, making me think WotC printed a hidden line of rules Text on every counterspell;


1UU - Cancel - Instant

Counter Target Spell. The controller of the spell countered this way may summon his angry parents without paying their manacost.

1st Hand experience. He played ALL his cards from the draft in one deck and I caught him having 3 extra cards by the end of turn 4. Sure he did not get DQ'ed with the patents around, and not playing by the rules all day. My last prerelease in town

/rant caused by bad Weekend

[Erdvermampfa]

What most of you veterans and professionals haven't noticed is that WotC intentionally keeps printing more and more simple cards because it offers those MtG freaks an opportunity to devalue others who allegedly don't understand complexe cards whereby they can increase their self-esteem and stay in the game.

[TsumiBand]

What most of you veterans and professionals haven't noticed is that WotC intentionally keeps printing more and more simple cards because it offers those MtG freaks an opportunity to devalue others who allegedly don't understand complexe cards whereby they can increase their self-esteem and stay in the game.

Go on.

[Richard Cheese]

http://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Witchstalker-M14-Spoiler.jpg

Nobody talking about this guy yet? Good enough for Legacy? Only with GSZ? Why the hell does it look like some kind of pigdog?

[Aggro_zombies]

http://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Witchstalker-M14-Spoiler.jpg

Nobody talking about this guy yet? Good enough for Legacy? Only with GSZ? Why the hell does it look like some kind of pigdog?
Comparable to Great Sable Stag, though I'm not sure if the comparison is favorable to that card or this one. On the one hand, it can just be countered if it poses any sort of real threat to a UB player...but on the other hand, it dodges StP and Lightning Bolt, two cards easily capable of disposing of GSG that are also not uncommon in decks with blue and/or black.

[Barook]

Nobody talking about this guy yet? Good enough for Legacy? Only with GSZ? Why the hell does it look like some kind of pigdog?

I fail to see why it would be good enough for Legacy. Yes, it has hexproof and a conditional grow, but for 3 mana, that doesn't seem too exciting for an otherwise vanilla beater. Could be wrong, though.

[Mewens]

Yeah, I think hexproof is really only scary when it comes with aggressive dudes. I mean, 3/3 trades with a lot of things, but it doesn't race them particularly well when they cost 2 mana less. ... If it had Quirion Dryad's ability, then we might be talking; I can't see this guy getting big enough to trade with 'goyf in most games.

By the way, what black spell gets played during an opponent's turn? Terror variants in Standard? Diabolic Edict once every 32.6 Legacy games? It's a weird card, now that I think about it ... not like you're going to be Terroring this guy to begin with.

[TsumiBand]

http://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Witchstalker-M14-Spoiler.jpg

Nobody talking about this guy yet? Good enough for Legacy? Only with GSZ? Why the hell does it look like some kind of pigdog?

My dog makes these goofy "nnngh, nnnf nnfff" noises when you scritch her ears. We call her Pigdog when she does it. Ha.

I don't think this card is that big a deal. It's a lottery ticket - a 'poor tax' for new players. Like Great Sable Stag before it; a lousy trick card that appears on its surface to address every "control" matchup in the eyes of a desperate aggro player with no finer sense of the game.

[FTW]

http://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Witchstalker-M14-Spoiler.jpg

Nobody talking about this guy yet? Good enough for Legacy? Only with GSZ? Why the hell does it look like some kind of pigdog?

This card is already available for 1 mana:
Nimble Mongoose

If green wants to play a dork that loses to Goyf in a barfight but dodges removal, RUG's already doing it for 2 mana less.

inb4 "bbbut there's another line of text": Lorescale Growtl and Growrian Dryad have shown just how good slow-grow is in Legacy, and those ones you can at least control. I mean, does anyone play Mold Adder?

[Barook]

Tidebinder Mage :u::u:
Creature - Merfolk Wizard (R)
When Tidebinder Mage enters the battlefield, tap target red or green creature an opponent controls. That creature doesn't untap during its controller's untap step for as long as you control Tidebinder Mage.
2/2

This actually doesn't seem too shabby. Takes out enemy green fat, Lavamancers, DRS and other annoying creatures.

[Koby]

Tidebinder Mage :u::u:
Creature - Merfolk Wizard (R)
When Tidebinder Mage enters the battlefield, tap target red or green creature an opponent controls. That creature doesn't untap during its controller's untap step for as long as you control Tidebinder Mage.
2/2

This actually doesn't seem too shabby. Takes out enemy green fat, Lavamancers, DRS and other annoying creatures.

What a clever blue card. I bet R&D took a lot of time deciding its finer points and where it fit in its vaulted color pie. I bet this will see more play than Witchstalker.

Good thing there so many red burn spells to deal damage to this creature-pacifism. Lets hope they print more deal damage spells just in case.

[Aggro_zombies]

What a clever blue card. I bet R&D took a lot of time deciding its finer points and where it fit in its vaulted color pie. I bet this will see more play than Witchstalker.

Good thing there so many red burn spells to deal damage to this creature-pacifism. Lets hope they print more deal damage spells just in case.
...? Tapping down creatures for an extended duration is a blue tradition harking back to, well, Stasis. Red and green are blue's enemy colors. What's the problem with this card?

[FTW]

Tidebinder Mage :u::u:
Creature - Merfolk Wizard (R)
When Tidebinder Mage enters the battlefield, tap target red or green creature an opponent controls. That creature doesn't untap during its controller's untap step for as long as you control Tidebinder Mage.
2/2

This actually doesn't seem too shabby. Takes out enemy green fat, Lavamancers, DRS and other annoying creatures.

Hmm, could this make Fish a thing again? No more awkwardly splashing for removal to win the Goblins matchup. On colour, vial-able viable solution to lots of traditional roadblocks for the 'folk.

This is also a fantastic answer to Thragtusk this summer. THANK GAWD. Maybe Standard will get interesting and not just about casting big dumb 5cc guys that gain you life and piss off sligh decks (remember Baneslayer Angel.format? Batterskull anyone? Wurmcoil Engine clones.dec?)

[ActionJunkie]

Gotta love you can Phantasmal Image Tidebinder Mage too ;).

[Gheizen64]

...? Tapping down creatures for an extended duration is a blue tradition harking back to, well, Stasis. Red and green are blue's enemy colors. What's the problem with this card?

A bit too much of the color's pie have been traditionally blue, what he's saying is that this effect lately has been showed to be more white (Yosei, blinding Beam etc...) and still we get a playable blue card instead out of it. First playable card in the set, blue merfolk hatebear ok? Granted, as a white tap red/black it wouldn't have been near as good, but blue getting 2cmc 2/2 with relevant abilities zzz.
I'm hoping it's a cycle and the RR hoser is somewhat playable... like RR 2/2 that ping everytime white/blue spells are casts? I'd dream about a manabarbs for islands/plains in this format at 2 or even 3 cmc...

[Filth]

this effect lately has been showed to be more white

The only white card printed in the last five years that's remotely similar is Kor Hookmaster. Meanwhile, blue has Dungeon Geists, Tamiyo, and a few Claustrophobia variants.

I don't like the color blue either, but this particular card isn't an example of Wizards feeding that color more abilities without precedent.

[Barook]

I don't like the color blue either, but this particular card isn't an example of Wizards feeding that color more abilities without precedent.
I think the issue here is powerlevel disparity. Blue should not have efficient creatures. An efficient creature with virtual CA tacked on is just another case of "Blue can deal with everything, fuck the other colors, especially red and black!"


I'm hoping it's a cycle and the RR hoser is somewhat playable... like RR 2/2 that ping everytime white/blue spells are casts?
Probably 1 damage if a white/blue cast spell is cast during your turn - that would be shitty enough to be a real design.

[Koby]

I think the issue here is powerlevel disparity. Blue should not have efficient creatures. An efficient creature with virtual CA tacked on is just another case of "Blue can deal with everything, fuck the other colors, especially red and black!"


Probably 1 damage if a white/blue cast spell is cast during your turn - that would be shitty enough to be a real design.

Ogre Pariah - RR
Creature - Ogre
If an opponent controls a white or blue creature, Ogre Pariah gets +1/+1 and haste.
When a white or blue creature attacks, deal 1 damage to that creature's controller.
0/1

Would not bat an eye if that was printed as part of the cycle.

[Gheizen64]

Ogre Pariah - RR
Creature - Ogre
If an opponent controls a white or blue creature, Ogre Pariah gets +1/+1 and haste.
When a white or blue creature attacks, deal 1 damage to that creature's controller.
0/1

Would not bat an eye if that was printed as part of the cycle.

We need to go deeper

Sewer Moggs RR
Creature - Goblin
If your opponent control no islands, Sewer Mogg can't attack.
Sewer Moggs can't be blocked by white creatures.
Crappy (this card can't be casted via islands and can't be pitched to force of will)
2/2

And since we're here already, here's Black version

Blue shade BB
Creature - Shade
B: +1+1 until EOT. Use this ability only if your opponent control a white or green permanent
2/2

Strictly better nantuko shade guise!

[TsumiBand]

It isn't even real removal, guys. It's a fucking Pacifism, except it beats for 2. If Tidebinder Mage is worth pooping the bed over, then we gotta go back and re-evaluate dumb shit like Arrest and Cagemail and all kinds of other similarly bad "removal" effects that don't kill the creature.

[Barook]

It's a fucking Pacifism, except it beats for 2. If Tidebinder Mage is worth pooping the bed over, then we gotta go back and re-evaluate dumb shit like Arrest and Cagemail and all kinds of other similarly bad "removal" effects that don't kill the creature.
Except the "has an efficient body attached to it" is the most important part of the card.

[Koby]

It isn't even real removal, guys. It's a fucking Pacifism, except it beats for 2. If Tidebinder Mage is worth pooping the bed over, then we gotta go back and re-evaluate dumb shit like Arrest and Cagemail and all kinds of other similarly bad "removal" effects that don't kill the creature.

I was going to post something about R&D but they don't care about Legacy, and in turn I don't care about them. It's an impasse.

Mostly, from the colors it hoses:

Green - has no good way to remove it outside of combat. Thus, it's effectively a removal spell. Only option is to race. Imagine this guy pinning down a Tarmogoyf.
Red - has plenty of options to remove it. Unfortunately, it only reinforces the theme of "Red = burn", which is overplayed and a lazy design philosophy.

[Piceli89]

It isn't even real removal, guys. It's a fucking Pacifism, except it beats for 2. If Tidebinder Mage is worth pooping the bed over, then we gotta go back and re-evaluate dumb shit like Arrest and Cagemail and all kinds of other similarly bad "removal" effects that don't kill the creature.

Except it beats for 2 while costing 2, it is blue, it is a Merfolk, and it provides utility against creatures Merfolk is notoriously weak to.

[TsumiBand]

LOL what the hell is going on. Did I like fall through a crack in the Universe? Did I skip a Magic The Cards lesson somewhere that makes this guy so much better than I'm giving it credit for?

Koby why does mono-Green have anything to do with anything? I presume we're still talking about Legacy right, so outside of like Elves, what deck are we concerned about? White for StP/PtE, or Red for every dumb burn spell in the book + REB + Pyroblast + whatever the fuck else.

And even if mono-green DID need to remove a creature or whatever, they have this shitty removal mechanic called Fight, which the blue creature does nothing to defend against. I mean as long as we're talking about answers with such limited scope as "target green or red creature doesn't untap during its controller's untap step, because those are Christmas colors and man I hate Christmas" then maybe MGA can start putting Pit Fight on the board so it can respond in kind. Actually I take it back, Fight isn't terrible because it's color-blind, unlike the Merfolk guy.

Just no, you guys. It is not going to be a thing.

If people are sadmad that it is the wrong color -- well, that I can understand. It should have been White probably. But if it had been, people would just go "Oh look, a White creature that will just die to removal" and that would have been the end of it. Force of Will doesn't make bad creatures any better.

Compare it to like... Journey to Nowhere or Fiend Hunter or even like Faceless Butcher. Take a look at things like Tidehollow Sculler which even has Mother of Runes to protect it most of the time -- the consistent complaint about all of these guys is their return clause, and how easily it is triggered because it is a permanent. Faceless Butcher has other problems, it costs :2::b::b:, but I mean... what the actual fuck. There is nothing to see here.

Ice Floe costs :0: and nobody really cares about Ice Floe. Hands of Binding could lock down the creature in the same way and it could be Ciphered onto any creature at all, big deal. Controlled Instincts has been around forballsever at half the cost. Gatherer is replete with shitty shitty cards that do this. Making it a Merfolk doesn't mean anything, except that it's going in a deck that is falling out of favor and is going to go "man fuck I wish this were a Dismember instead of a durdlemuffin".

I'm so confused. Whatever I have to walk my dog.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

I think the issue here is powerlevel disparity. Blue should not have efficient creatures. An efficient creature with virtual CA tacked on is just another case of "Blue can deal with everything, fuck the other colors, especially red and black!

Back when Wizards was seriously starting their push towards a more Creature-centric Magic, a few critics sagely noted that this would interact poorly with the color pie, as some colors were balanced out by having a poor selection of creatures to compensate for their other strengths. They predicted that either Wizards would have to shaft those colors (unlikely) or that certain colors would suddenly have it all. I think their prediction came true, as Blue, gaining access to efficient creatures (and effective means of dealing with opposing creatures before even considering the splash opportunities more easily afforded to Blue on account of a virtual monopoly on card draw/selection) has very few weaknesses anymore. They have aggressive creatures, they have an excellent tribal aggro suite, they have value creatures, and they have excellent "bomby" creatures. Their only weakness is in specifically "midrangey" creatures, where Green and White win out, but their history of excellent Planeswalkers helps to balance that out (not so much for Black, which has only one competitive walker and as for Red...yeah).

Basically, over time the color has gotten most of it's weaknesses patched up, while other colors still have crippling faults from back in the day. Wizards really should have, at the very least, redistributed a few of Blue's good mechanics to other colors to compensate for it's newfound acquisitions. Assuming color parity is actually a goal they have, of course.

[Aggro_zombies]

And people were getting mad about blue getting the Merfolk...

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=143588&d=1372910482

...since when does blue get to give itself better-than-Terminates? For all the opponent's creatures, no less? Christ.

The black entry into the enemy color hosing creature cycle has decent stats but a very weak ability. A pity - if the discard had been something like, "Whenever an opponent casts a green or white creature, he or she discards a card" it might actually have been interesting, though still weaker than Perish/Virtue's Ruin because the Tempest color hosers were ridiculously over the top.

[Barook]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=143587&d=1372910461

Less shitty than expected. Legacy-playabe? Doubt it, there should be better cards against those colors, but I might be wrong. 3 power + evasion doesn't sound too shabby, either. Reminds me a bit of Clique.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=143586&d=1372910457

Comboes rather well with Meekstone, just like Blind Obidience, but without the suck. I would watch out for this one.

[Aggro_zombies]

Why is Blind Obedience worse than the Sovereign? Obedience is hard to get rid of and the bleed is probably more relevant over the course of a game than a 2/1 in most cases. Plus, Obedience hits artifacts, which can be randomly relevant against stuff like Lotus Petal.

[Gheizen64]

I honestly like the zombie. 3/1 evasion + discard a card is a solid package when you can ritual it T1. Sorta like Gatekeeper, but you can play it on an empty board and has more aggressive stats. And against more than half the format he will exile a card.

[Lemnear]

I honestly like the zombie. 3/1 evasion + discard a card is a solid package when you can ritual it T1. Sorta like Gatekeeper, but you can play it on an empty board and has more aggressive stats. And against more than half the format he will exile a card.

Dunno, Green/white creature only is pretty limited. I would go that far and say it's even worse than hypnotic spectre

[Barook]

Oh wait, it says creature card. I missed that before. Well, it kinda sucks, then.

@Aggro_zombies: Obedience has no body (for better or worse), so I don't think it necessarily has maindeck potential. And as a SB card, I would rather have other stuff against storm.

I would probably try to jam it into this shell (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=52861) or the updated version by Carsten Kotter (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/25717_Eternal-Europe-ndash-Diamonds-In-The-Rough.html). Soverein also works better with Vial, Thalia and equipment.

T1 Meekstone into T2 Soverein seems like a gigantic "Fuck you!" to quite a few decks, especially Sneak&Show.

@Dismiss into Dreams: Is it just me, or are two of the dogs fucking each other? :eyebrow: Reminds me of Uktabi Orangutan.

[Mewens]

ha ha ha ha, I just realized that Dismiss Into Dream is EDH's answer to equipment + hexproof.

"Uril Miststalker? More like Urine Pisstaker, amirite?"

Weird effect. One of those things, I guess – "We don't want to invalidate auras or equipment at 2 mana, but we don't want to let this idea go."

[JanoschEausH]

I like the new Imposing Sovereign. It hoses sneak attack, which is awesome, but doesnt do anything against Omniscience... So i guess its mostly fringe playable.

[Barook]

I like the new Imposing Sovereign. It hoses sneak attack, which is awesome, but doesnt do anything against Omniscience... So i guess its mostly fringe playable.
The combo with Meekstone turns off a good chunk of the creatures in Legacy, though.

Sure, it sucks against Omnitell, but there's Thalia + Canonist for that.

[Zinch]

The combo with Meekstone turns off a good chunk of the creatures in Legacy, though.

Sure, it sucks against Omnitell, but there's Thalia + Canonist for that.

Are we reaching the point of a viable Hatebear Deck? Maybe something like this:

4 Thalia
4 Ethersworn Canoninst
4 Imposing Sovereing
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Meddling Mage

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Daze/Spell Pierce/Mother of Runes
4 Brainstorm
3 Meekstone
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Aether Vial

4 Wasteland
15 Lands

[Barook]

Are we reaching the point of a viable Hatebear Deck? Maybe something like this:

4 Thalia
4 Ethersworn Canoninst
4 Imposing Sovereing
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Meddling Mage

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Daze/Spell Pierce/Mother of Runes
4 Brainstorm
3 Meekstone
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Aether Vial

4 Wasteland
15 Lands
If you run Meekstone, Goldmeadow Harrier might be an option to get rid of unwanted, untapped creatures.

Although I would run a few combat-relevant creatures like Mirran Crusader or Serra Avenger to increase the clock.

[nedleeds]

Honestly ... WotC would that zombie have been just so fucking format warping to make it a Green or White (STP) card? Christ man what the hell is standard like these days that a card like that; narrower than worm shit is a rare and presumably considered playable?

Meanwhile we have double lord of atlantis. FU R&D.

[nedleeds]

And since we're here already, here's Black version

Blue shade BB
Creature - Shade
B: +1+1 until EOT. Use this ability only if your opponent control a white or green permanent
2/2

Strictly better nantuko shade guise!

A better version of that already exists as:

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/mm/132.jpg

It's not good enough and it's fuckin' free.

Harbinger of AIDS - BB
Creature - Zombie Wizard

Sacrifice a Zombie creature: Target player discards a card from their hand. This shit is a sorcery mother fuckers.

0/3

[TsumiBand]

A better version of that already exists as:

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/mm/132.jpg

It's not good enough and it's fuckin' free.

Harbinger of AIDS - BB
Creature - Zombie Wizard

Sacrifice a Zombie creature: Target player discards a card from their hand. This shit is a sorcery mother fuckers.

0/3

As a totally unrelated aside, I hate the "play this only when you could sorcery" wording they use for that. It would be way cleaner if they would just do like:

{Keyword [Timing] - Cost: Effect}

So like Unearth would look like --

{Unearth[Sorcery] - 2B: Return this creature from your graveyard to the battlefield. It gains haste. At the beginning of your end step, exile it.}

I think the Comp Rules even support it, or at least, they could with really minimal modification. It removes like 10 words from the card and makes it read a lot more like a minified card -- like think about the way people explain cards quickly to people that haven't heard of them. "Abrupt Decay(keyword), it's an Instant(timing), costs a Green and a Black(cost), destroy target nonland permanent that costs three or less(effect)."

That has nothing to do with anything, I just wanted to share.

Lifebane Zombie has the same set of problems as the Merfolk guy. It's like a Slithery Stalker that gets around protection, but only if you beat them to the punch. Still... it's got evasion, such as it is. Maybe it can round out the Sin Collector // Tidehollow Sculler thing, but that stupid color restriction will keep it from becoming ubiquitous.

The White creature is interesting but it is half of Blind Obedience, and the problem with that card is that it isn't a full Kismet, right? Maybe in concert with Thalia it will be a thing, but I dunno. I'd love to see a hatebear-get-there deck that sported Meddling Mage though. That poor card has been almost good enough for like 12 years :(

[TsumiBand]

So now it's my turn to talk about cards that probably don't matter.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=143561&stc=1&d=1372824041

It's no Batterskull, so maybe that's /discussion. Assuming there were a board sweeper worth playing, it could exist in play and then creature up, which is something Batterskull can't do - the Germ token would die and you'd have to bounce it. You could also activate it and then play a creature and then... things. Yeah. Dunno.

[Gheizen64]

So now it's my turn to talk about cards that probably don't matter.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=143561&stc=1&d=1372824041

It's no Batterskull, so maybe that's /discussion. Assuming there were a board sweeper worth playing, it could exist in play and then creature up, which is something Batterskull can't do - the Germ token would die and you'd have to bounce it. You could also activate it and then play a creature and then... things. Yeah. Dunno.

Don't rag on UU hatemerfolk if u want to praise a worse chimeric idol afterward :D

I like the card, if only because of the nice flavor and balance. But with Batterskull around, this will never see play.

[nedleeds]

Equip cost could be 1 and it still wouldn't get played. Please continue to perform CCG Scat into our mouths WotC. Thx.

[lyracian]

So now it's my turn to talk about cards that probably don't matter.
It's no Batterskull, so maybe that's /discussion. Assuming there were a board sweeper worth playing, it could exist in play and then creature up, which is something Batterskull can't do - the Germ token would die and you'd have to bounce it. You could also activate it and then play a creature and then... things. Yeah. Dunno.
I find it interested. What puts me off is that is does not create a token to equip but becomes a creature itself. So like all creatures it just dies and you do not get to reuse it like batter skull. It is a nice touch that Stoneforge can find and play it but it just does not seem good enough for Legacy since you still have to pay the equip cost

[TsumiBand]

Don't rag on UU hatemerfolk if u want to praise a worse chimeric idol afterward :D

I like the card, if only because of the nice flavor and balance. But with Batterskull around, this will never see play.

Who's praising? I said the card probably will never matter. :D

I talk about cards that are bad all the time, especially if I like them. When they printed Blazing Torch I thought it was a big flavor win - I knew it to be unplayable shake.

[ReAnimator]

http://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Witchstalker-M14-Spoiler.jpg

I know i'm late to this party but why in good gravy was there any discussion on this rather than someone just posting this and being done with it?



http://8e8460c4912582c4e519-11fcbfd88ed5b90cfb46edba899033c9.r65.cf1.rackcdn.com/sales/cardscans/MTG/CMD/en/nonfoil/TrollAscetic.jpg

[Barook]

Nothing interesting today. They took Wasteland and slapped a :4: cost to the nonbasic kill.

[Megadeus]

Jesus every card spoiled today is like a worse version of existing cards. wasteland that cost 4 to activate, one mana goblin bombardment that costs a mana everytime you activate it, and a reassembling skeleton that only can return when it dies. IS IT SO MUCH TO ASK FOR REASSEMBLING SKELTON.

[from Cairo]

Jesus every card spoiled today is like a worse version of existing cards. wasteland that cost 4 to activate, one mana goblin bombardment that costs a mana everytime you activate it, and a reassembling skeleton that only can return when it dies. IS IT SO MUCH TO ASK FOR REASSEMBLING SKELTON.

Nailed it. This set keeps looking worse and worse. I acknowledge that it's core set, but even for a basic level set it's embarrassingly bad.

[FTW]

Assuming color parity is actually a goal they have, of course.

Huh? I thought their priority was to maintain the secondary market value edge of Beta Islands. Have you seen anything they've done in the last 4 years???

[FTW]

LOL what the hell is going on. Did I like fall through a crack in the Universe? Did I skip a Magic The Cards lesson somewhere that makes this guy so much better than I'm giving it credit for?

Koby why does mono-Green have anything to do with anything? I presume we're still talking about Legacy right, so outside of like Elves, what deck are we concerned about? White for StP/PtE, or Red for every dumb burn spell in the book + REB + Pyroblast + whatever the fuck else.

And even if mono-green DID need to remove a creature or whatever, they have this shitty removal mechanic called Fight, which the blue creature does nothing to defend against. I mean as long as we're talking about answers with such limited scope as "target green or red creature doesn't untap during its controller's untap step, because those are Christmas colors and man I hate Christmas" then maybe MGA can start putting Pit Fight on the board so it can respond in kind. Actually I take it back, Fight isn't terrible because it's color-blind, unlike the Merfolk guy.

Just no, you guys. It is not going to be a thing.

If people are sadmad that it is the wrong color -- well, that I can understand. It should have been White probably. But if it had been, people would just go "Oh look, a White creature that will just die to removal" and that would have been the end of it. Force of Will doesn't make bad creatures any better.

Compare it to like... Journey to Nowhere or Fiend Hunter or even like Faceless Butcher. Take a look at things like Tidehollow Sculler which even has Mother of Runes to protect it most of the time -- the consistent complaint about all of these guys is their return clause, and how easily it is triggered because it is a permanent. Faceless Butcher has other problems, it costs :2::b::b:, but I mean... what the actual fuck. There is nothing to see here.

Ice Floe costs :0: and nobody really cares about Ice Floe. Hands of Binding could lock down the creature in the same way and it could be Ciphered onto any creature at all, big deal. Controlled Instincts has been around forballsever at half the cost. Gatherer is replete with shitty shitty cards that do this. Making it a Merfolk doesn't mean anything, except that it's going in a deck that is falling out of favor and is going to go "man fuck I wish this were a Dismember instead of a durdlemuffin".

I'm so confused. Whatever I have to walk my dog.

You do play Legacy, right? Merfolk decks already run cards like Submerge and Mind Harness SB to deal with pesky green Lhurgoyfs and the like. This dude seems like a step up from that. Yes it "dies" to stuff, but you forget the point. It's not about being an unanswerable answer. It's about efficiency, the same reason Goblins gets value out of MD Stingscourger against decks other than Reanimator. An on-tribe 2/2 for 2 that buys you tempo, even temporarily, is just what the tribal aggro deck ordered. Sure this guy dies. But are you going to Bolt HIM or the Master of Pearl Trident or Lord of Atlantis standing next to him? The more "must kills" Merfolk has, the tougher time you have stopping them with spot removal.

Fiend Hunter sees no play because it's a 1/3 for 3. If it was efficiently costed (e.g. a 3/3 or 3/x evasion) AND took out a creature, then it would probably see play in Death and Taxes. None of the other creature removal examples you listed were Y/Ys for Y mana, and many were not creatures at all. I mean, that would be like comparing Burning-Tree Emissary to "1R - Instant - Add RG to your mana pool". Having an efficient body with it is VERY RELEVANT in an aggro/fish deck. It's why Dark Confidant is worth $50 and Phyrexian Arena/Dark Tutelage very little.

[HammafistRoob]

1) Merfolk decks already run cards like Submerge and Mind Harness SB to deal with pesky green Lhurgoyfs and the like. This dude seems like a step up from that. Yes it "dies" to stuff, but you forget the point. It's not about being an unanswerable answer. It's about efficiency, the same reason Goblins gets value out of MD Stingscourger against decks other than Reanimator. An on-tribe 2/2 for 2 that buys you tempo, even temporarily, is just what the tribal aggro deck ordered. Sure this guy dies. But are you going to Bolt HIM or the Master of Pearl Trident or Lord of Atlantis standing next to him? The more "must kills" Merfolk has, the tougher time you have stopping them with spot removal.

Fiend Hunter sees no play because it's a 1/3 for 3. If it was efficiently costed (e.g. a 3/3 or 3/x evasion) AND took out a creature, then it would probably see play in Death and Taxes. None of the other creature removal examples you listed were Y/Ys for Y mana, and many were not creatures at all. I mean, that would be like comparing Burning-Tree Emissary to "1R - Instant - Add RG to your mana pool". Having an efficient body with it is VERY RELEVANT in an aggro/fish deck.

2)It's why Dark Confidant is worth $50 and Phyrexian Arena/Dark Tutelage very little.

1)+1, was thinking pretty much the same thing when I read that post.

2) Actually it's probably more on the fact that he's a two drop. But your point stands nonetheless.

[TsumiBand]

You do play Legacy, right? Merfolk decks already run cards like Submerge and Mind Harness SB to deal with pesky green Lhurgoyfs and the like. This dude seems like a step up from that. Yes it "dies" to stuff, but you forget the point. It's not about being an unanswerable answer. It's about efficiency, the same reason Goblins gets value out of MD Stingscourger against decks other than Reanimator. An on-tribe 2/2 for 2 that buys you tempo, even temporarily, is just what the tribal aggro deck ordered. Sure this guy dies. But are you going to Bolt HIM or the Master of Pearl Trident or Lord of Atlantis standing next to him? The more "must kills" Merfolk has, the tougher time you have stopping them with spot removal.

Fiend Hunter sees no play because it's a 1/3 for 3. If it was efficiently costed (e.g. a 3/3 or 3/x evasion) AND took out a creature, then it would probably see play in Death and Taxes. None of the other creature removal examples you listed were Y/Ys for Y mana, and many were not creatures at all. I mean, that would be like comparing Burning-Tree Emissary to "1R - Instant - Add RG to your mana pool". Having an efficient body with it is VERY RELEVANT in an aggro/fish deck. It's why Dark Confidant is worth $50 and Phyrexian Arena/Dark Tutelage very little.

Fiend Hunter and Faceless Butcher are creatures that remove a threat only to return it if they leave play. In this respect I'd say they are a better apples-to-apples than Submerge and Mind Harness, even though both are too expensive to be seriously played. Merfolk Guy keeps the creature in play, meaning it is terrible against any deck that can just untap creatures at whim (Elves) or just plays reasonable removal like, I dunno, Abrupt Decay (Jund) or Punishing Fire (Jund) or anything that doesn't care about counterspells. Shit even Maverick plays a ton of things that are just bad for it like StP and Mother of Runes and SFM -> Jitte, all kinds of stuff.

It just seems like this card comes pre-answered and isn't any stronger than Submerge or Mind Harness. If temporary tempo is that crucial to you then Mind Harness is far and away the better answer - why would I ever tap a Tarmogoyf or KotR when I could just steal it?

[nedleeds]

Nothing interesting today. They took Wasteland and slapped a :4: cost to the nonbasic kill.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHHAHAAHAHAAHAHAH ... I'd love to read the play test notes about how 3 made it too powerful.

"WE isn't havin' funs gettin our lands stoned rained on turn 5!" - WotC R&D

[Koby]

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHHAHAAHAHAAHAHAH ... I'd love to read the play test notes about how 3 made it too powerful.

"WE isn't havin' funs gettin our lands stoned rained on turn 5!" - WotC R&D

"For those asking, we did test it at 3 mana but found the Market Research results were reporting 'unfun' as a factor. The 4 mana makes it so players can still cast Thragtusk by turn 5." - R(etarded) & D(umb) department.

[FTW]

Fiend Hunter and Faceless Butcher are creatures that remove a threat only to return it if they leave play. In this respect I'd say they are a better apples-to-apples than Submerge and Mind Harness, even though both are too expensive to be seriously played.

Already addressed those. They're not Y/Ys for Y. One is a 1/3 for 3, the other is a 2/2 for 4, and neither is part of a relevant Legacy tribe. We're not just evaluating the ability in a vacuum, but the ability + cost + combat stats + tribal synergy. This guy has a slightly worse ability but is MUCH better on cost and combat stats and tribal synergy.

Tribal synergy is important. Stingscourger would suck in Burn and Zoo. But it gets a lot of value in Goblins, where you can tutor for it, cheat it out, give it haste, pump it, sac if for value. Being on tribe counts for a lot! That's how tribal decks work. Stingscourger is the only relevant comparison since it's the only one that is also efficiently costed and on-tribe.



meaning it is terrible against any deck that can just untap creatures at whim (Elves)
But Mind Harness and Submerge and Abrupt Decay and Swords to Plowshares and pretty much any removal are equally questionable against an active Symbiote, since all you can do is hit the Symbiote or force them to bounce something. Symbiote > spot removal. Your point?


or just plays reasonable removal like, I dunno, Abrupt Decay (Jund) or Punishing Fire (Jund) or anything that doesn't care about counterspells.

Why on earth would I counterspell the removal on this guy even if I could?

Jund can Bolt it for all I care. Even if this guy is killed instantly Goyf is still tapped down for a turn and can't block, which means I can still alpha strike with my team. I don't really care if Goyf untaps next turn. The fact that he's tapped now means I got a 1.5:1 trade out of that removal (net profit from the free tap) and can now safely send my Lords into the red zone because they're not exactly dying to Bob or DRS. At that point, if you kill my tapper I deal more damage than if you kill my Lord... so go for it!!!



It just seems like this card comes pre-answered and isn't any stronger than Submerge or Mind Harness. If temporary tempo is that crucial to you then Mind Harness is far and away the better answer - why would I ever tap a Tarmogoyf or KotR when I could just steal it?

Because you can't attack with Mind Harness or Submerge, because they're dead cards when opponent doesn't have any creatures (and OOPS now you can't create any pressure), because they can't be Vialed in as a trick, and because boarding them in means boarding important stuff OUT and diluting your deck. Mind Harness is decent but ties up your mana which is awkward when you also want to Waste things or activate Mutavault. Tribal aggro decks need a critical mass of tribal creatures to pose any threat - otherwise you are just casting Grizzly Bears and Gray Ogre. If Mind Harness or Butcher or any of those other effects came attached to aggressive Merfolk bodies, they would be better no question. But they don't. Being on-tribe matters.

Anyway, let's see if the Merfolk guys can crank some value out of him.

[nedleeds]

"For those asking, we did test it at 3 mana but found the Market Research results were reporting 'unfun' as a factor. The 4 mana makes it so players can still cast Thragtusk by turn 5." - R(etarded) & D(umb) department.

to make it worse ... I misread it. It's 4, T (sacrifice shitbox land): so it's an effective 5 mana wasteland. This will really reign in those mana bases in Modern ... I'm so far removed from standard I look at these cards and can't even imagine playing a constructed game with them. It just looks awful.

What's the big evil non-basic Maze of Ith land that this steaming pile addresses? Because at 5 it doesn't do anything to disrupt color. Unless standard is a turn 9 format now.

[Koby]

Gavony Township (creature pumps)
Desolate Lighthouse (looter)
Kessig Wolf-run (Berzerk)

And a host of greedy mana bases. All these were answered by Ghost Quarter for the low low cost of <land drop>.

I suppose with M14 Mutavault will be an issue too. Because you know, it's impossible to kill a 2/2 creature in the combat step or something...

[nedleeds]

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/aq/71.jpghttp://magiccards.info/scans/en/aq/71.jpghttp://magiccards.info/scans/en/aq/71.jpghttp://magiccards.info/scans/en/aq/71.jpg

Kids today need to toughen the F up. I played STANDARD when the above was legal. We had fun. We played unsleeved. We cast balance.

[FTW]

Unless standard is a turn 9 format now.

Standard is a format where the best creature is a 5-drop green beast and the best spell is an X spell....

A format where ramp decks can win by HARDCASTING Omniscience or, god forbid, activating Door to Nothingness.

[Gheizen64]

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/aq/71.jpghttp://magiccards.info/scans/en/aq/71.jpghttp://magiccards.info/scans/en/aq/71.jpghttp://magiccards.info/scans/en/aq/71.jpg

Kids today need to toughen the F up. I played STANDARD when the above was legal. We had fun. We played unsleeved. We cast balance.

You know what'd like? A Waste variant that work only if you control another land with the same name. That would be still bad, but it'd be hilarious when you can run 4 of these + 4 vesuva + 4 wastes mana base :D

Or a variant that work not sacrificing itself, but a basic land. So that'd be promoting basic in your decks + basic in your opponent. I'd like to see more monocolors or colorless splashing color decks.

[Koby]

I think Dust Bowl would have been a fine inclusion in place of Encroaching Wastes, personally.

[FTW]

I think Dust Bowl would have been a fine inclusion in place of Encroaching Wastes, personally.

But how is Timmy gonna cast Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker if you have a card that lets you destroy a land this turn AND next turn. That's just not fair Magic!

[Gheizen64]

But how is Timmy gonna cast Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker if you have a card that lets you destroy a land this turn AND next turn. That's just not fair Magic!

Something like

Dust wastes
Land
Comes into play with a dust counter on it
T: 1 colorless
Sacrifice a basic land, remove a dust counter, T: destroy target non-basic land

Basically instead of trading your worse land to trade for their best, you trade a much more valuable one. Wasteland is so elegant why not just reprint it sigh...

[Gheizen64]

Speaking of other things, in the article today he briefly talked about the new Theros duals, and while he said he was very excited to show those, he also heavily implied they weren't as good as shocks, so i think Legenduals are out (i'm not surprised they could be printed only as a commander variant unless they want to ruin modern for good).

[Barook]

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHHAHAAHAHAAHAHAH ... I'd love to read the play test notes about how 3 made it too powerful.

"WE isn't havin' funs gettin our lands stoned rained on turn 5!" - WotC R&D
These are the people who think that Stone Rain is too good for Standard and needs to cost 4 mana. Let that sink into your head for a moment.

Hell, Acidic Slime sees tons of play in Junk Reanimator because it's 5 mana LD (that can be recurred by different means).

[Amon Amarth]

The pseudo-Wasteland is so bad. It's a bad Tectonic Edge.

If Goblin Bombardment + Enduring Renewal + Ornithopter is too good for Modern, I don't even know what to say. Are we regressing here?

[Koby]

The pseudo-Wasteland is so bad. It's a bad Tectonic Edge.

If Goblin Bombardment + Enduring Renewal + Ornithopter is too good for Modern, I don't even know what to say. Are we regressing here?

There is not even a need for Bombardment + Ornithopter. Just replace it with Blood Artist + Wild Cantor.

[Amon Amarth]

There is not even a need for Bombardment + Ornithopter. Just replace it with Blood Artist + Wild Cantor.

That the combo is already legal hurts my brain. So either they're dumb or ... urgh, ARGh, brain no worky.

[Koby]

Just to make it works, I looked up Enduring Renewal and it is not a replacement effect meaning that Death triggers.

[FTW]

I think the interaction they're worried about is:
Goblin Arsonist+Goblin Bombardment in Standard.

That's just unfair magic! How is Timmy ever gonna cast his 7cc fatties?

EDIT:
Given that Zombardment is a deck in Legacy, there might be good reason to think zombies + Lingering Souls + Bombardment + Blood Artist is too good for Standard, even just for 3 months.

[Megadeus]

meh zombardment, like RUG Delver, would probably get run over by a standard deck. Those decks are built for legacy. I doubt it would even be thatgood

[Koby]

I think the interaction they're worried about is:
Goblin Arsonist+Goblin Bombardment in Standard.

That's just unfair magic! How is Timmy ever gonna cast his 7cc fatties?

EDIT:
Given that Zombardment is a deck in Legacy, there might be good reason to think zombies + Lingering Souls + Bombardment + Blood Artist is too good for Standard, even just for 3 months.

It kind of is? At least Aristocrats are a deck designed on much of the same basis.

[Julian23]

A format where ramp decks can win by HARDCASTING Omniscience or, god forbid, activating Door to Nothingness.

You know, first time I heared people were playing a deck called "Fogdoor" in T2, I was joking that it would most likely be a deck with Fogs and Door to Nothingness.

Then I looked at the decklists.

:eek:.......:confused:.......:rolleyes:........:cry:

[FTW]

You know, first time I heared people were playing a deck called "Fogdoor" in T2, I was joking that it would most likely be a deck with Fogs and Door to Nothingness.

Then I looked at the decklists.

:eek:.......:confused:.......:rolleyes:........:cry:

I stand corrected. Standard is a turn 10 format:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1ux6lkU9IA

Apparently you can also win with Maze's End. And they think Dust Bowl would be overpowered in this format...

[ReAnimator]

You guys are seriously misinformed about T2.

It is a format dominated by fast aggro and midrange, with a little bit of control. Those decks you are talking about are not real decks.

Here is the top 16 of GP Miami from last weekend. That is what the format actually looks like, 7 archetypes in the top 8.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=1&start_date=2013-06-23&end_date=2013-06-30&start=1&finish=16&event_ID=3&city=Miami&state=FL&country=US

Everyone thinks the new Techtonic edge is silly. It will mostly see play in control decks so they can have outs to Wolf run and opposing drown yards and that's it.

[nedleeds]

AHAHAHAHHAHA the winning deck actually plays 4 bonfire to just ... sack into it's miracle cost. #soakedinskill

[Barook]

AHAHAHAHHAHA the winning deck actually plays 4 bonfire to just ... sack into it's miracle cost. #soakedinskill

To be fair - Miracles are designed to be THE lucksack incarnate mechanic.

On a different note: Looks like people are already start to complain about the power level of M14, especially considering it's the third regular set that sucks in a row. What the hell are they thinking?

[Megadeus]

To be fair - Miracles are designed to be THE lucksack incarnate mechanic.

On a different note: Looks like people are already start to complain about the power level of M14, especially considering it's the third regular set that sucks in a row. What the hell are they thinking?

I'm just annoyed at how blatantly obvious it is that these cards are literally the same thing as older cards but with higher mana costs andsuch

[Barook]

I'm just annoyed at how blatantly obvious it is that these cards are literally the same thing as older cards but with higher mana costs andsuch
They're continuing the trend of GTC and DGM with it.

I fear that they're gonna make Theros a legendary block with tons of overcosted legends to fuel Commander.

But I doubt they could continue this trend of overcosted shit much longer. Both MM and Kamigawa blocked costed them dearly in terms of sales.

[GoblinSettler]

I'm just annoyed at how blatantly obvious it is that these cards are literally the same thing as older cards but with higher mana costs andsuch

Was true of dragon's maze, too. Aetherling, etc.

[Aggro_zombies]

Was true of dragon's maze, too. Aetherling, etc.
At least Dragon's Maze had a few interesting cards in it. This set is just shitty all around once you look past Mutavault (a mid-value reprint, wooo!).

[Megadeus]

At least Dragon's Maze had a few interesting cards in it. This set is just shitty all around once you look past Mutavault (a mid-value reprint, wooo!).

Theres Scavenging Ooze as well I suppose, but there isn't much that really jumps out. I guess the new Garruk I could see seeing some modern play? Maybe theres like a dramatic entrance deck with 4x Progenitus and 4x Worldspine Wurm? Lol

[TsumiBand]

Honestly I think it was a mistake to announce that the Core Sets would be 50% reprints 50% original cards. The Core Set shouldn't be subject to that much fluctuation; it should pick up relevant shit as it progresses, always sort of being that "you must be this tall to ride" set where Standard pap like the taplands and oldie-but-goodie removal like I dunno Terror and/or Path to Exile or whatever just live. Changing it to be half new cards all the time opens them up to dumpy shit like this, where they need to come up with these plane-less, theme-less cards.

[JanoschEausH]

I think m14 is way better than Gatecrash and Dragon's Maze together. There are at least some cards that could be potentially playable + some good reprints.

[Polish Tamales]

I think m14 is way better than Gatecrash and Dragon's Maze together. There are at least some cards that could be potentially playable + some good reprints.

At this point, the only worth while card in Dragon's Maze is Bambi on roids. Everything else seems to be Standard playable. Even Ral doesn't even see play in Modern.

[Aggro_zombies]

The entire set is up now. (https://www.wizards.com/magic/tcg/article.aspx?x=mtg/tcg/magic2014coreset/cig)

Bland and forgettable even by Core Set standards. I feel like the difference with M13 is jarring - M13 was actually a pretty good Core Set and relatively fun to draft. But this set? I get the feeling it's one of those sets you'll be able to draft by pick order...

[FTW]

AHAHAHAHHAHA the winning deck actually plays 4 bonfire to just ... sack into it's miracle cost. #soakedinskill

Meh, smart meta-gaming. 4 Bonfires + 2 MD GROUND SEAL WTFWTF seems smart against a top16 full of aggro and Reanimator

WOTC clearly went overboard on the "leave something behind" creatures if Thragtusk & Voice of Resurgence & Angel of Serenity means that an UNCOUNTERABLE 4CC WRATH and a 1 MANA HALLOWED BURIAL qnd Sphinx's Revelation isn't good enough to get a single control deck into the top 16. Weird.

[Zinch]

What about Mindsparker?

Each brainstorm, ponder, swords... means a free shock and it has a decent body (and first strike) for its cost...

[Aggro_zombies]

What about Mindsparker?

Each brainstorm, ponder, swords... means a free shock and it has a decent body (and first strike) for its cost...
What deck would want to play it? It has no relevant tribal typing, has no built-in protection, and is only just a Shock for white and blue spells.

[Gheizen64]

Imho it's probably the best card in the set, but i'm not sure it's Legacy playable. Costing 3 really kill it. At least it kills Mongooses all day long.
Problem is that 3 in red is a shitty mana cost, think about Countryside Crusher, and even that isn't played, like, ever. White instant and sorceries are also pretty rare, aside from swords and Lingering Souls.

[Barook]

I'm hoping it's a cycle and the RR hoser is somewhat playable... like RR 2/2 that ping everytime white/blue spells are casts?

Probably 1 damage if a white/blue cast spell is cast during your turn - that would be shitty enough to be a real design.

I don't think we were off too much. A bit more mana, a little better stats and more damage with another restriction.

Edit: Funny how blue is the only one that breaks the cycle by being the only 2cc card. :rolleyes:

[Lemnear]

This expansion should not be named "M14" but "How many booster does Mutavault sell?"

[Barook]

Why is Mutavault a moneycard anyway? Isn't Merfolk the only deck that runs it? And there isn't much Merfolk around, neither in Legacy nor Modern.

[Kayradis]

IMHO, Mutavault is still a staple.

In an unknown meta, Merfolks is still a fairly good deck to play.
I used to travel a lot around Canada and the US, and I always had merfolks with me if I couldn't gage the metagame I was walking into.

The deck runs 12 counterspells all together with a fairly good amount of beatdown.

Can't be that bad!

Edit: The only thing Im looking forward to play with again is Trading Post. There is gotta be a way to abuse it again!

[Megadeus]

trading post is back? oh man yes

[Gheizen64]

Why is Mutavault a moneycard anyway? Isn't Merfolk the only deck that runs it? And there isn't much Merfolk around, neither in Legacy nor Modern.

I heard 2/2 manlands are pretty good. Especially with slivers around i think.

By the way we have our third muscle sliver now. Cavern of Souls Sliver with 12 muscle, 3 new winged slivers, cristalline sliver, plated sliver, that's already 23 slivers that are pretty good, mutavault for 4/4 flying manlands.

[Aggro_zombies]

This expansion should not be named "M14" but "How many booster does Mutavault sell?"
More like, "How can we remake Seventh Edition without actually reprinting Seventh Edition?"

This set looks so simple and straightforward that it almost feels to me like there was a meeting at some point early in its design with Hasbro execs where one of them said, "We want you to make a set that moves the largest number of people picked up by Duels of the Planeswalkers into the paper game. Something simple but not too simple - something that appeals to the Call of Duty crowd, you know? Gamer-friendly." I would almost accept that as the reason behind this set looking like ass even by Core Set standards...except for the fact that both Gatecrash and Dragon's Maze had a similar, phoned-in, make-Magic-cards-by-numbers feel to them. I'm honestly not sure if WotC is running out of ideas at this point or if they've just fallen asleep at their jobs or their focus testing now exclusively uses ten year olds with ADHD or what.

[TsumiBand]

More like, "How can we remake Seventh Edition without actually reprinting Seventh Edition?"

This set looks so simple and straightforward that it almost feels to me like there was a meeting at some point early in its design with Hasbro execs where one of them said, "We want you to make a set that moves the largest number of people picked up by Duels of the Planeswalkers into the paper game. Something simple but not too simple - something that appeals to the Call of Duty crowd, you know? Gamer-friendly." I would almost accept that as the reason behind this set looking like ass even by Core Set standards...except for the fact that both Gatecrash and Dragon's Maze had a similar, phoned-in, make-Magic-cards-by-numbers feel to them. I'm honestly not sure if WotC is running out of ideas at this point or if they've just fallen asleep at their jobs or their focus testing now exclusively uses ten year olds with ADHD or what.

This is why they never should have dicked around with the Core Set. Honestly, the expectation to put out new shit in the mXX sets has just turned them from "Eh it's meh, they do it to keep painlands/Duress/Counterspell in Standard" to "hey look, some oddly designed Slivers"

I mean some cool things have come out of it, but nothing says those cards couldn't have just been part of the expansion of the same Standard season. It just seems like trying to apply too much creativity to the Core Set defeats the purpose.

[Arsenal]

I heard 2/2 manlands are pretty good. Especially with slivers around i think.

By the way we have our third muscle sliver now. Cavern of Souls Sliver with 12 muscle, 3 new winged slivers, cristalline sliver, plated sliver, that's already 23 slivers that are pretty good, mutavault for 4/4 flying manlands.

Slivers hasn't been a thing in Legacy for ages, so I'm not quite sure why Slivers existing makes Mutavault "better". Mutavault is played in exactly 1 Legacy deck and it's a Tier 2 deck at that. There's no logical reason it should be a $20+ card anymore, but Magic card prices rarely follow logic, so...

[Gheizen64]

Slivers hasn't been a thing in Legacy for ages, so I'm not quite sure why Slivers existing makes Mutavault "better". Mutavault is played in exactly 1 Legacy deck and it's a Tier 2 deck at that. There's no logical reason it should be a $20+ card anymore, but Magic card prices rarely follow logic, so...

I answered a guy that asked why Mutavault was a money card, and legacy isn't the only format in this game.

[Barook]

I'm honestly not sure if WotC is running out of ideas at this point or if they've just fallen asleep at their jobs or their focus testing now exclusively uses ten year olds with ADHD or what.
I blame Maro and his team of yes-sayers and bootlickers.

"New Chandra still sucks? You're underestimating her, she's amazing!" :rolleyes:

[dunk]

More like, "How can we remake Seventh Edition without actually reprinting Seventh Edition?"


Please don't hate on 7th because it was one of the better core sets. Yeah, it felt more like Portal than Magic, but at least it was including actual format staples. And making the core set feel like Portal is no concern for me, as long as includes format defining cards.

... M14 however... I didn't expect to make a core set worse than 5th Edition. But they did. Again, while 5th had a lot of terrible cards, it had a lot of cards anyway so there still were enough Standard defining cards included. But m14 is the biggest failure ever. I remember when core sets were developed to form a base of Standard and not tryed to be as terrible as possible. No birds. No wrath. No duals. Nothing. Mutavault, Ooze, some slivers and some random hatecards. The new Garruk shines like a star next to random flashy noob Mythics. If a random green fattie that's not worth getting show and telled into play is the most expensive card of a set you know that something went wrong.

The only credit I give this set is that it features a reprint of Blessing. Which feels weird though, putting the shade ability on a white card feels so Planar Chaos - esque.

[Koby]

Don't you dare diss on Portal. It had actual playables in it.

Pyroclasm (you are long missed from Core sets...)
Wrath of God
Armageddon
Sleight of Hand
Natural Order
Nature's Ruin / Virtue's Ruin (holy removal this set was loaded)
Hurricane / Earthquake
Wood Elves (holy shit we're really getting hosed with core sets)
Boiling Seas & Flashfires & Stone Rain & Rain of Salt
...

Can we petition WotC to allow Portal to be Standard legal?

[ReAnimator]

Don't you dare diss on Portal. It had actual playables in it.

Pyroclasm (you are long missed from Core sets...)
Wrath of God
Armageddon
Sleight of Hand
Natural Order
Nature's Ruin / Virtue's Ruin (holy removal this set was loaded)
Hurricane / Earthquake
Wood Elves (holy shit we're really getting hosed with core sets)
Boiling Seas & Flashfires & Stone Rain & Rain of Salt
...

Can we petition WotC to allow Portal to be Standard legal?

I'm not sure if you are serious but almost all of those cards were in normal sets first!

[Koby]

I'm not sure if you are serious but almost all of those cards were in normal sets first!

All the more reason why newer Core Sets suck. But alas, it's not in line with "feel goods" Modern design.

[Gheizen64]

Don't you dare diss on Portal. It had actual playables in it.

Pyroclasm (you are long missed from Core sets...)
Wrath of God
Armageddon
Sleight of Hand
Natural Order
Nature's Ruin / Virtue's Ruin (holy removal this set was loaded)
Hurricane / Earthquake
Wood Elves (holy shit we're really getting hosed with core sets)
Boiling Seas & Flashfires & Stone Rain & Rain of Salt
...

Can we petition WotC to allow Portal to be Standard legal?

A dude noted that out of 245 or so cards of M14, 187 of them are creatures or have creature in their text. Oh how time changes...

[Oiolosse]

A dude noted that out of 245 or so cards of M14, 187 of them are creatures or have creature in their text. Oh how time changes...

This would be okay if the expert level sets started focusing on spells and the stack.

[rufus]

I blame Maro and his team of yes-sayers and bootlickers.

"New Chandra still sucks? You're underestimating her, she's amazing!" :rolleyes:

I thought she was OK until I realized the 'without paying it's mana cost' is missing from the second ability.

[FTW]

A dude noted that out of 245 or so cards of M14, 187 of them are creatures or have creature in their text. Oh how time changes...

20 are basic lands with multiple pictures, so they don't really count. I counted 47/249 cards that aren't basic lands and don't have the word "creature" on them (I accepted "noncreature" like Duress and Bramblecrush). Of these 47, several of these still primarily interact with creatures (Indestructibility, Fog, Ratchet Bomb), 5 are Staff of the Magus Janks and 2 are lands.

Yep, this set is aimed at new players. WotC thinks we're all satiated with Modern Masters and they can make M14 extra janky.

[Arsenal]

I agree that M14 is janky. Although, could it be that they're trying to ramp down the Core Set power level like what they did from Urza's block to Masques block?

[Megadeus]

Well at least Nightmare got reprinted. Now if only Beta ones werent 70 bucks... :(

[Koby]

I agree that M14 is janky. Although, could it be that they're trying to ramp down the Core Set power level like what they did from Urza's block to Masques block?

Even Masques had free spells (Misdirection, Gush, Daze, Submerge, Foil, Thwart...) Ok bad example.

Think Mirrodin -> Kamigawa instead. That makes more sense considering how bad 8th / 9th was in perspective as well (relatively speaking...)

[nedleeds]

Well at least Nightmare got reprinted. Now if only Beta ones werent 70 bucks... :(

Cavern of Horses? The exhilaration of opening a Nightmare back in December of 1993 was pretty sweet. Opening one now with it's dogshit art and having been reprinted 400 times seems really underwhelming. Why not just make a new interesting card ... ?

[Aggro_zombies]

Don't you dare diss on Portal. It had actual playables in it.

Pyroclasm (you are long missed from Core sets...)
Wrath of God
Armageddon
Sleight of Hand
Natural Order
Nature's Ruin / Virtue's Ruin (holy removal this set was loaded)
Hurricane / Earthquake
Wood Elves (holy shit we're really getting hosed with core sets)
Boiling Seas & Flashfires & Stone Rain & Rain of Salt
...

Can we petition WotC to allow Portal to be Standard legal?
I started playing the game with Portal. Still one of my favorite sets in terms of art.

[Megadeus]

Cavern of Horses? The exhilaration of opening a Nightmare back in December of 1993 was pretty sweet. Opening one now with it's dogshit art and having been reprinted 400 times seems really underwhelming. Why not just make a new interesting card ... ?

Mono black in standard with Corrupt and Nightmare! That old art is SEXY. Too bad all the black bordered copies are at least 69 more dollars than I want to pay for a 6 mana almost vanilla dude lol.

But yeah they could have made a new card. Though I do remember when M10 first came out and I saw Nightmare (when I was new to the game) I loved it. It seemed like such a badass card!

[dunk]

Cavern of Horses? The exhilaration of opening a Nightmare back in December of 1993 was pretty sweet. Opening one now with it's dogshit art and having been reprinted 400 times seems really underwhelming. Why not just make a new interesting card ... ?

Probably because they wanted to have some nostalgia theme in. I'm sad Mahamoti didn't make it in :/

@Megadeus: You could get some cheap European bb ones.

[Barook]

Even Masques had free spells (Misdirection, Gush, Daze, Submerge, Foil, Thwart...) Ok bad example.

Think Mirrodin -> Kamigawa instead. That makes more sense considering how bad 8th / 9th was in perspective as well (relatively speaking...)

I just don't get who exactly benefits from this. It pisses off people, who buy less packs, which hurts Wizards.

Innistrad block had a decent power level, but nothing absurd like Mirrodin or Urza. Powering several sets down like this seems unjustified. If I felt like playing overcosted jank creatures, I would play more Momir Basic.

[Megadeus]

Probably because they wanted to have some nostalgia theme in. I'm sad Mahamoti didn't make it in :/

@Megadeus: You could get some cheap European bb ones.

Genius. But dat flavor text :'(

[nedleeds]

You could get some Koreeeen horseys.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-V3Z9MiZfRYI/UDRZOnZkFqI/AAAAAAAAAnU/MabgiDRwSAM/s912/IMAG0292.jpg

[Gheizen64]

Genius. But dat flavor text :'(

?? Italian Nightmares had Edgar allan Poe Flavor text i'm pretty sure. You dissing Edgar Allan Poe?

A lot of cards in Black bordered revised had classical flavor text, especially black cards had some amazing quotes. Gonna check it now for nostalgia.

Man...

Emily Dickinson, from Soul Barrier

Sadly i forgot that i sold most of my revised collection alongside all my duals ages ago so i can't check but i'm pretty sure Nightmare and Will o' Wisp had classical quotes, and there were many other in Revised.

And old art was so amazingly better than this damn post-filtered shit that looks like it has no real color in it.

[nedleeds]

Old magic cards in general has sweet flavor text. Not just the planeswalker of the fucking month talking shit.

"Strength it has, but at the cost of a continuous supply of energy. Such failure can bear only one result."

—Execution order of Endrek Sahr, master breeder

Greven il-Vec lifted Vhati off his feet. "The fall will give you time to think on your failure." ... the flavor text is one dude murdering another dude ... just awesome

He raged at the world, at his family, at his life. But mostly he just raged.

"One cannot cleanse the wounds of failure." —Karn, silver golem

These days, some wizards are finding that they have a little too much spell left at the end of their mana.

[TsumiBand]

Old magic cards in general has sweet flavor text. Not just the planeswalker of the fucking month talking shit.

"Strength it has, but at the cost of a continuous supply of energy. Such failure can bear only one result."

—Execution order of Endrek Sahr, master breeder

Greven il-Vec lifted Vhati off his feet. "The fall will give you time to think on your failure." ... the flavor text is one dude murdering another dude ... just awesome

He raged at the world, at his family, at his life. But mostly he just raged.

"One cannot cleanse the wounds of failure." —Karn, silver golem

These days, some wizards are finding that they have a little too much spell left at the end of their mana.

Heh, yeah that is pretty much what all the flavor text is now.

"Why would you ever prgkfhkfl ONE kfmqrowel, when you can prgkfhkfl them ALL?" - every walker ever about everything every other walker is doing right now

Also, unrelated, I just went to the pharmacy to get a script refill and some fucking computer somewhere is broken so no one can submit requests to just my insurance company and no one can do anything about it and so I bought candy instead and it's those Lem and Mel things and they are not very good. I strongly discourage all Magic players from buying them. Hot Tamales are strictly better.

[Mewens]

Yeah, old flavor text was generally miles better than today's. I think it's because old Wizards wasn't so worried about brand-building; they didn't need to include X number of Garruk quotes, f'rexample, and could freely mine all manner of classics and do any number of one-and-done cards. (I'm still amazed that WotC nixed real-world references at one point; one of the stupidest decisions from creative.)

For reference, I think the current era of terrible flavor text began with Weatherlight. Homelands is easily the worst set in terms of flavor text, but Mirage, Ice Age and older sets all have some real charmers; especially in the period from Onslaught on, puns have been almost the height of Magic writing, and it's sad to see. It's like the writers gave up on ambition because they were too busy meeting their "badass main character" and "mysterious rival/villain" and "sultry confused female victim" quotas. (The fact that we've exchanged those for "mysterious Jace musings," "badass Garruk ramblings" and "sultry Liliana angst" is not an upgrade.)

... that and I think many of the original designers were just genuinely better writers. Type "Garruk" into gatherer's flavor text engine and it's all cliches, repeated ideas, throwaway lines; there's nothing of any depth. Garruk smash, Chandra burn, Jace smirk, we get it. (We're supposed to, you know, like one of these characters, aren't we? Or are we operating on the principle that the trope is enough?)

Re Mindsparker: HOLY SHIT KOBY. YOUR TRIBAL TROLL WAS TOO GOOD FOR M14.

[Megadeus]

Karakas has an Emily Dickinson quote... Righteousness had a sweet quote if I remember. I thought the card was sweet because of the flavor text and I played it as a 1 of in my old casual soldiers deck.

Found it:
"I too shall be brought low by death, but until then let me win glory."
—Homer, Iliad, Book XVIII
Fifth Edition

[Koby]

Re Mindsparker: HOLY SHIT KOBY. YOUR TRIBAL TROLL WAS TOO GOOD FOR M14.

Yes too good.

Tunnel Ingus
Ash Zealot
Mindsparker

Even the red hate bears are getting worse. No Hope.

[Megadeus]

Lol at Tunnel Ungus. I thought that card would kill Valakut...

[ReAnimator]

For reference, I think the current era of terrible flavor text began with Weatherlight.

So current era and Weatherlight belong in the same sentence now? ok then.

[HammafistRoob]

Goblin Welder has the best flavor text. I'll let you look it up in hopes that the magic community as a whole burns a few calories.

[Mewens]

So current era and Weatherlight belong in the same sentence now? ok then.

In terms of flavor text? Damn straight. They canned real-world references around that time, so no more of the Bard, Dickinson, King James Bible, etc. They also abandoned their alternating approach of nebulous world-building that had served them so well in Legends and encapsulated story-telling that made Antiquities and Fallen Empires cards a pleasure to read; instead, they decided to obsessively build worlds with open-ended stories.

They departed from those paradigms in Weatherlight, and they'd essentially created the modern template by Tempest. Look at the sliver flavor text, and the italics on Meditate: It's full of action snapshots that lack context, or idiotic throw-away lines that would look ridiculous in a comic book (and wouldn't ever be said in real life, natch). Look at the cards in any of the Mxx core set: null-context fight scenes and braindead fan-fic-level quotes.

The game itself has evolved and changed massively from those times, but we're stuck with the same drool-covered writing that was ushered in 16 years ago.

(A quick note: There are some gems in the new sets, and there's a place for groan-inducing puns like those on Goblin Offensive and Werebear. The problem isn't the mere existence of trash posing as scene-setting imagery; it's that the by-the-numbers nonsense has almost entirely replaced the inspired bits.)

[Aggro_zombies]

The action shots in Tempest block "lack context" because you have to assemble them in the right order. Tempest is basically the only block where it is possible to deduce the entirety of the block's story from the cards' flavor texts.

Unfortunately, that went over badly because players, "lack[ing] context," couldn't figure out what was happening unless they opened a huge volume of cards and sifted through them all to figure out the correct chronological order - which wasn't happening. By the time Odyssey rolled around, WotC had largely abandoned that model in favor of focused world-building and pithy one-liners because they didn't need context to make sense but would nevertheless help flesh out the world.

[phonics]

In terms of flavor text? Damn straight. They canned real-world references around that time, so no more of the Bard, Dickinson, King James Bible, etc. They also abandoned their alternating approach of nebulous world-building that had served them so well in Legends and encapsulated story-telling that made Antiquities and Fallen Empires cards a pleasure to read; instead, they decided to obsessively build worlds with open-ended stories.

They departed from those paradigms in Weatherlight, and they'd essentially created the modern template by Tempest. Look at the sliver flavor text, and the italics on Meditate: It's full of action snapshots that lack context, or idiotic throw-away lines that would look ridiculous in a comic book (and wouldn't ever be said in real life, natch). Look at the cards in any of the Mxx core set: null-context fight scenes and braindead fan-fic-level quotes.

The game itself has evolved and changed massively from those times, but we're stuck with the same drool-covered writing that was ushered in 16 years ago.

(A quick note: There are some gems in the new sets, and there's a place for groan-inducing puns like those on Goblin Offensive and Werebear. The problem isn't the mere existence of trash posing as scene-setting imagery; it's that the by-the-numbers nonsense has almost entirely replaced the inspired bits.)

I had to do a double take, but m14 has cards with quotes from Shakespeare (Pay No Heed) and from the Art of War (Zephyr Charge). I thought they had stopped with real world quotes for a while, I dont know if this is a change with m14, or if some previous 'modern era' cards have quotes from real world literature as well.

[Aggro_zombies]

I had to do a double take, but m14 has cards with quotes from Shakespeare (Pay No Heed) and from the Art of War (Zephyr Charge). I thought they had stopped with real world quotes for a while, I dont know if this is a change with m14, or if some previous 'modern era' cards have quotes from real world literature as well.
They show up more-or-less exclusively in Core Sets now and usually only a few times per Core Set.

[ReAnimator]

In terms of flavor text? Damn straight.

I guess i'll just have to disagree with you. I think Magic has gone through multiple huge creative shifts since that time, including their approach to flavour text.

[Stan]

Goblin Welder has the best flavor text. I'll let you look it up in hopes that the magic community as a whole burns a few calories.

THIS. After all these years, that card still has the best flavour text ever.

[Zinch]

THIS. After all these years, that card still has the best flavour text ever.

I disagree... This title goes for the Lhurgoyf (yes, the ol' good lhurgoyf)

And one personal favorite of mine is Vindicate (the card as a whole is a pretty wonderful card)

[Mewens]

I guess i'll just have to disagree with you. I think Magic has gone through multiple huge creative shifts since that time, including their approach to flavour text.

K. How do you think flavor text has changed over that time? (I'm being honest here; this isn't some ironic, I-wanna-spar line of questioning.) I'll be the first to say that I take things too seriously (I tremble with anger every time I see the moist stupidity that is Jilt), so I'm more than willing to check myself against other's ideas and experiences – but can't do that with one-liner rejoinders.

[Richard Cheese]

In terms of flavor text? Damn straight. They canned real-world references around that time, so no more of the Bard, Dickinson, King James Bible, etc. They also abandoned their alternating approach of nebulous world-building that had served them so well in Legends and encapsulated story-telling that made Antiquities and Fallen Empires cards a pleasure to read; instead, they decided to obsessively build worlds with open-ended stories.

They departed from those paradigms in Weatherlight, and they'd essentially created the modern template by Tempest. Look at the sliver flavor text, and the italics on Meditate: It's full of action snapshots that lack context, or idiotic throw-away lines that would look ridiculous in a comic book (and wouldn't ever be said in real life, natch). Look at the cards in any of the Mxx core set: null-context fight scenes and braindead fan-fic-level quotes.

The game itself has evolved and changed massively from those times, but we're stuck with the same drool-covered writing that was ushered in 16 years ago.

(A quick note: There are some gems in the new sets, and there's a place for groan-inducing puns like those on Goblin Offensive and Werebear. The problem isn't the mere existence of trash posing as scene-setting imagery; it's that the by-the-numbers nonsense has almost entirely replaced the inspired bits.)

This is absolutely correct, and it's one of the reasons I stopped playing for a long time. The introduction of "main characters" and a more defined story line in Weatherlight has always pissed me off. My problem is not even so much about the quality of the flavor text going down, but an excess of exposition. You used to get bits and pieces of lore from card names and flavor text, but it was largely left for the player to fill in, and left you with as many questions as answers, as great art tends to do (anyone who has played Demon's/Dark Souls knows exactly what I'm talking about).

When Weatherlight came out, the game still played well, but everything just seemed to be force-fed. The art, the flavor text, the rulebooks, everything wanted you to get behind the plucky crew of the Weatherlight and their fight to save the universe and all that, but none of them were really well-developed or relatable, just a bunch of tired hero cliches. It's pretty obvious they're still working from that template, because it serves to market comics and books and all that. The core planeswalkers are the new Weatherlight crew, and despite being completely generic personifications of how R&D sees each color, everything has to revolve around these assholes.

At this point for me, the game has ceased to be about fantasy/story/lore/etc., it's just about gameplay and the Legacy community being generally awesome.

[ReAnimator]

K. How do you think flavor text has changed over that time? (I'm being honest here; this isn't some ironic, I-wanna-spar line of questioning.) I'll be the first to say that I take things too seriously (I tremble with anger every time I see the moist stupidity that is Jilt), so I'm more than willing to check myself against other's ideas and experiences – but can't do that with one-liner rejoinders.


Well the creative departments as well as the writers have changed from set to set and over the years so has the general creative direction of the game in that time. We are talking about 16 years, for a game where literally everything except the card backs has changed, but the onus is on me to prove that this one aspect of the game has changed? Like ok, granted that flavour text is a pretty static concept like it is just cool tibits of flavour on cards so i suppose it hasn't changed that much in that it is still the same thing just approached differently. You can read about a million articles on the mother ship about Wotc's approach to design flavour world building, integration of design and flavour. If you read all that and still think their approach and execution is the same then that's your opinion. I don't even have that much of a problem with their approach to world building with flavour text, i didn't like the weatherlight saga approach as it was way to heavy handed, but i thought that it got better with time starting with Odyssey block onward and has been steadily improving, and has been really good in the last couple of blocks.
You stated that they got rid of real world quotations which isn't true there are just way less of them, but they never went out of the core set. You praise Fallen empires (which was sweet) yet it's really similar to the style of flavour world building they did after that.
The linear story telling of Tempest backed off a bit in subsequent blocks and changed quite a bit in their approach to ODY and ONS blocks. The more modern era with Innistrad integrating the flavour and story more with the world building and setting i thought was fantastic.

[Aggro_zombies]

This is absolutely correct, and it's one of the reasons I stopped playing for a long time. The introduction of "main characters" and a more defined story line in Weatherlight has always pissed me off. My problem is not even so much about the quality of the flavor text going down, but an excess of exposition. You used to get bits and pieces of lore from card names and flavor text, but it was largely left for the player to fill in, and left you with as many questions as answers, as great art tends to do (anyone who has played Demon's/Dark Souls knows exactly what I'm talking about).

When Weatherlight came out, the game still played well, but everything just seemed to be force-fed. The art, the flavor text, the rulebooks, everything wanted you to get behind the plucky crew of the Weatherlight and their fight to save the universe and all that, but none of them were really well-developed or relatable, just a bunch of tired hero cliches. It's pretty obvious they're still working from that template, because it serves to market comics and books and all that. The core planeswalkers are the new Weatherlight crew, and despite being completely generic personifications of how R&D sees each color, everything has to revolve around these assholes.

At this point for me, the game has ceased to be about fantasy/story/lore/etc., it's just about gameplay and the Legacy community being generally awesome.
Magic's worldbuilding is probably some of the best it's ever been. Sure, the stories are ass, and the characters are forgettable cardboard cutouts, but there's a lot of actual work that goes into fleshing out the worlds Magic visits. The Planeswalker's Guides on the Mothership are some of my favorite parts of spoiler season because they usually contain much more depth and variety than makes it onto the cards. A pity, really.

[Koby]

Magic's worldbuilding is probably some of the best it's ever been. Sure, the stories are ass, and the characters are forgettable cardboard cutouts, but there's a lot of actual work that goes into fleshing out the worlds Magic visits. The Planeswalker's Guides on the Mothership are some of my favorite parts of spoiler season because they usually contain much more depth and variety than makes it onto the cards. A pity, really.

I agree with this, and I think Zendikar hit the nail on the head. Innistrad's top-down flavor was also a big big hit. However, recycling old Planes pretty much makes it boring and lame (Mirrodin, Ravnica) .

[Mewens]

@Aggro_zombies
That's definitely a fair point – and it has to be said, branding's a ton of hard work. I totally get why there's 73,318 variations of Garruk growling, "Civilization is turrible," and I'm sympathetic – even as I'm critical – to the writers who have to work within those constraints. I write headlines for a living, and there's times when you just want to mash your keyboard against the wall because there's only so many ways to say "Disaster strikes."

I mean, as much as I love the feel of Ice Age block, it's a conceptual mess; I can't say that of Invasion block, no matter how much I want to stomp on the Apocalypse italics.

But man, "Civilization is fertilizer"? C'mon guys, that just reeks of "took 20 seconds to finish my 'Garruk hates cities' quota."

[DLifshitz]

Magic's worldbuilding is probably some of the best it's ever been.

I dunno. Over the last three years, every block was very rigidly supported by some "crutches." An old block and an even older block (Mirrodin and Urza blocks), then every gothic tale and horror movie ever, then another old block. I think that counts as skillful adaptation at best.

[Richard Cheese]

Magic's worldbuilding is probably some of the best it's ever been. Sure, the stories are ass, and the characters are forgettable cardboard cutouts, but there's a lot of actual work that goes into fleshing out the worlds Magic visits. The Planeswalker's Guides on the Mothership are some of my favorite parts of spoiler season because they usually contain much more depth and variety than makes it onto the cards. A pity, really.

That's part of my point though. You used to have to flesh a lot of stuff out for yourself based on hints here and there. The reason for the brothers' war, how it led to the ice age, the rise and fall of various factions and leaders, who holds what kind of power, and so on (of course now we know because they went back and made a card for every character that was so much as mentioned in flavor text). I'm actually looking for less depth, not more. I want some mystery, some debate. I mean maybe I'm on about nothing and all this was made really clear in books or something, but I always considered those to be more fan-fiction and not so much part of the MtG canon.

Edit: At least according to Wikipedia I'm not crazy, and the events of Antiquities were just described in flavor text, until the book came out in '98. What year did Weatherlight come out? '97! When did Tempest come out? Later in '97! What was Rosewater's first lead design role? Tempest!!!! Coincidence!? I think not!

Also I just learned Rosewater used to write for Rosanne. Everything is coming into focus now.

[FieryBalrog]

Time Spiral block, unsurprisingly, has a good amount of sweet flavor text. But like many other things with that block, being good means being unappreciated, and "did not sell as well" means "design & creative failure".

Blood, bone, and sinew are magnified, as is the rage that drives them. The brain, however, remains unchanged—a little bean, swinging by a strand in a cavernous, raving head.

"The only perfect world is an empty world, with no one to sin or wage war."

"In my dreams, I hear the voices of my future selves who have died in times yet to come. I use that knowledge to avoid those dark futures and continue my search for peace."

Wind time's watch, and watch time unwind.

"A rift opened, and our arrows were abruptly stilled. To move was to push the world. But the sliver's claw still twitched, red wounds appeared in Thed's chest, and ribbons of blood hung in the air."

[Aggro_zombies]

I vaguely remember there being a Geordie Tait article at some point complaining about how shitty flavor text was getting printed, but I can't be bothered to find it because then I'd have to read a bunch of Geordie Tait articles.

[TsumiBand]

I vaguely remember there being a Geordie Tait article at some point complaining about how shitty flavor text was getting printed, but I can't be bothered to find it because then I'd have to read a bunch of Geordie Tait articles.

+1

[Stan]

I disagree... This title goes for the Lhurgoyf (yes, the ol' good lhurgoyf)

And one personal favorite of mine is Vindicate (the card as a whole is a pretty wonderful card)

Lhurgoyf is a good one too, but in that block, I prefer Orcish Cannoneers.

[Stan]

Another oldie but goodie is Floodgate from Mirage. There should be a thread about the best flavour text on cards.

[dunk]

Mirage had one of the best flavor ( - text ) anyway. Even though you can spot a theme and distinguish the cards from other sets, the art doesn't look as generic as it does today and there are some silly / cool ones in there though, which are very rarely seen these days.

[Stan]

Both Mirage and Ice Age had that epic feel to them, yes. They sucked you into an imaginary world. Fallen Empires had this too (together with awesome flavour text on several cards).

Compare that to recent blocks: Fallen Empires was a retrospective view of several ancient civilizations struggling to survive, and perishing one by one. Ice Age was about a world in which people were fighting for survival, because of a conflict that happened centuries earlier. Like Fallout meets the Viking Age. Mirage was set on perhaps the most beautifully conceived world in this game, and had an epic war which involved an entire continent.

recent blocks: the new Mirrodin block had a cool feeling, but that was only because Phyrexia is back. Innistrad: a bunch of scary critters eat humans, but suddenly the most lame deus ex machina in the history of the game happens, some angel breaks free, and everything is alright again. I bet the twilight books have better stories than that one. Return to Ravnica has an even lamer story, with a few planeswalkers (Jace and Gideon) dicking around for no particular reason, and a bunch of boring legends walking around the city, apparantly looking for some maze. But what is the maze? Nobody knows. Five year old kids can come up with better stories.

/endrant

[Koby]

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/mr/338.jpg

Classic.

[Stan]

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/mr/338.jpg

Classic.

I totally forgot about that one. I change my vote from Goblin Welder to this.

[Barook]

Jaya Ballard had some sweet flavor texts, too. I like Inferno, for example.

Now they're trying to rehash her with Chandra, but fail miserably.

Edit: While we bitch about M14 being shitty - remember that Tom LaPille is back and worked on the set.


Tom is also vigilant in making sure the designs make flavor sense, which is extra important for a core set.

That explains alot.

[Richard Cheese]

Jaya Ballard had some sweet flavor texts, too. I like Inferno, for example.

Now they're trying to rehash her with Chandra, but fail miserably.


Yes, Jaya is the original sassy pyromancer, and so far she's still the more powerful of the two as well.

Just for nostalgia's sake, here's a card that can never exist again:
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/ai/113.jpg

Great art, great flavor, reasonable cost, blows things up, red. Shit was clearly way overpowered.

[Koby]

Yes, Jaya is the original sassy pyromancer, and so far she's still the more powerful of the two as well.

Just for nostalgia's sake, here's a card that can never exist again:
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/ai/113.jpg

Great art, great flavor, reasonable cost, blows things up, red. Shit was clearly way overpowered.

For starters, the original printed wording was the correct templating. Bury should have never been removed as a game action. "What happens when a creature dies? You bury it in the graveyard." Flavorful and succinct.

[Lord Seth]

recent blocks: the new Mirrodin block had a cool feeling, but that was only because Phyrexia is back. Innistrad: a bunch of scary critters eat humans, but suddenly the most lame deus ex machina in the history of the game happens, some angel breaks free, and everything is alright again.
Enh, the deus ex machina ending of Avacyn Restored was rather annoying, but the Innistrad set itself had really great flavor. I just wish Avacyn Restored hadn't gone so far with the deus ex machina, especially because things supposedly weren't super special awesome even when Avacyn was originally around, it's just that her being gone made things a lot worse. It would've been better if Avacyn's return just caused a restoration of the way things used to be, rather than "oh snap everything is awesome now."

I've never really gotten all the hate the Weatherlight saga got. I thought it was really cool, and was disappointed when they stopped doing things like that.

[dunk]

For starters, the original printed wording was the correct templating. Bury should have never been removed as a game action. "What happens when a creature dies? You bury it in the graveyard." Flavorful and succinct.

Since Wotc started to shorten things with stuff like "Exile" instead of rfg or "dies" instead of when x goes to graveyard from play, I could see them bringing back bury at some point. Depends on whether or not they are still on their "instead of allow regen, exile it anyway or sacrifice it" - trip.

[rufus]

Since Wotc started to shorten things with stuff like "Exile" instead of rfg or "dies" instead of when x goes to graveyard from play, I could see them bringing back bury at some point. Depends on whether or not they are still on their "instead of allow regen, exile it anyway or sacrifice it" - trip.

Bury could just be a 'put it into the graveyard'. That would be clean, but a functional change from 'destroyed without regeneration' for stuff like indestructable.

[TsumiBand]

Nah, I doubt that they'd re-shorten "destroy XXXX. XXXX can't be regenerated." back to 'bury'. Especially since it would really alter the way Indestructibility works against all those effects. Anyway, they appear to want regeneration to matter, and that's hard to do when things are being 'buried' on the regular. So subverting indestructible and regeneration without just using a tuck effect like Hallowed Burial or Terminus is probably a thing they would not do, at least not on a single card, anyway.

The thing that is stupid about "dies" is that it strictly applies to creatures. It's the same game action that applies to every other permanent, but creatures get a unique label for it. I cannot fucking stand that when it happens in real life - jargon and nomenclature are some of my most lethal opponents. Inasmuch as Magic is concerned, it matters because when game actions change around then there are things that you may used to be able to do which you no longer can.

These are pithy examples of the case at hand - I'm not the one with questions about whether or not these work, but I could understand a person's resultant confusion if they were comparing old cards against new text. Take the handful of cards with "Gravestorm" on them - in plain English terms, a creatures that dies is also "a permanent put into a graveyard from play this turn". But do the rules of the game consider that to be the same action? It used to be 100% clear because they were called the same thing, but now because they are called different things, someone might wonder. Boggart Shenanigans also still uses the "into a graveyard from play" wording, because sometimes Goblin permanents are not creatures.

Wishes are probably a better example - when "RFG" turned into "exile" it was no longer genuinely outside the game, so Wishes can't wish for things that Scavenging Ooze eats. I suppose by the by, a lot of cards that used to RFG and now just exile legitimately work differently too, it just matters less because 99% of the time, being removed from the game and being in exile are the same.

A certain amount of that is *fine*, but after a while it makes it seem like everything's a corner case. I realize that there's nothing ungoogleable about any of these rules changes // non-changes - but I also dislike any hint of a trend towards requiring Internet access to play Magic correctly. I think if XBox users around the world can bitch about not being able to play games unless their XBox can connect every 24 hours, I can pitch a fit if my cardboard is expected to connect to the Internet every time Lotus Vale enters the battlefield. So when things don't have to be renamed but totally are and then a wild rules question appears, or when cards get 'original functionality errata' to work the way they were 'supposed to', and people have to run to Gatherer to figure out wtf is going on, I kinda hates it.

[dunk]

I realize that there's nothing ungoogleable about any of these rules changes // non-changes - but I also dislike any hint of a trend towards requiring Internet access to play Magic correctly.

Everyone has internet, everywhere. At least in the parts of the world where people don't have enough real sorrows so they can afford to play a childrens card game. The problem, however, is that Wotc is totally unable to communicate nearly anything in an apropriate way. Usually it's random Twitter announcements... if we are lucky.

[FieryBalrog]

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/mr/338.jpg

Classic.

Maro mentioned that he wrote this on his most recent podcast. I have to give him props for that.

He also apparently wrote the flavor text for Pacifism, which is one of the classic crowd-pleasers:
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/mr/236.jpg