[Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress) - Former DTB

[74-1123039401]

I think the honden idea is a very silly one, but has a metric fuck load of potential. the only problem is, that it gives you a much slower clock, and less solidarity/spring tide hate in the main. But regardless, I'm still gonna be testing the hell out of the idea...the awsomefuntastic idea :p

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

True, you lose Words, but if you can resolve an early black Honden you should be in a decent situation. Plus extra black Hondens in the board seems like a decent SB against Solidarity.

The main problem I'm having with the idea is the mana base; fetch-lands are pretty awesome. I'm toying with playing City of Brass.

[74-1123039401]

yeah... words are kind of good againts high tide decks, the other week I resolved a turn 2 words of war, I then proceed to win with a 50 card grave.

I doubt the black honden is gonna do anything against solidarity, it may be an inconvenience, but not an answer. And if you are planning on useing supression field, then fetches are a bad idea. Well, it's time to dig some hondens out of my big box-o-commons™

[ho_master]

My best solution for Solidarity is to maindeck In the Eye of Chaos, but that would push your 4 color honden win to 5 color honden with no fetches. I wanted to put suppression field in here, but it also messes with Sterling Grove. That would push it to the protection role in this deck instead of tutoring, so maybe you'd need Enlightened Tutors?

Hondens also slow the clock down significantly, allow Akroma's Vengeance to just wreck house while you slowly build up your hondens. I like the idea of inserting Suppression Field, I just don't see how the Hondens are a good substitute for the Words/Mesa approach.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

My best solution for Solidarity is to maindeck In the Eye of Chaos, but that would push your 4 color honden win to 5 color honden with no fetches. I wanted to put suppression field in here, but it also messes with Sterling Grove. That would push it to the protection role in this deck instead of tutoring, so maybe you'd need Enlightened Tutors?

Hondens also slow the clock down significantly, allow Akroma's Vengeance to just wreck house while you slowly build up your hondens. I like the idea of inserting Suppression Field, I just don't see how the Hondens are a good substitute for the Words/Mesa approach.
But most players seem to be moving away from Vengeance and towards Disk, which is hurt by Suppression Field(though it takes multiples). Perhaps Aura of Silence could also go in the MD.

The Black Honden by itself does very little to Solidarity, but in conjunction with another Honden, it does.



Edited By SpatulaOfTheAges on 1127925650

[MattH]

I had the same idea, but the poor interaction with Grove is what really turned me off of Field. Paying for Words shouldn't be a problem if you have Mesa going.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

The problem isn't one Field; the problem is that they're stronger cumulatively, and Words becomes unplayable with two out. And Grove still applies its first ability under Fields, and isn't that expensive to use under them.

[74-1123039401]

silly idea, but what about second sunrise as a bad replenish? against boardsweeps.

[ho_master]

For me, it's a 50-50 when I play a landstill player nowadays of what mass removal they're using. Usually, they run both Vengeance and Disk, and I have to bait out the 1st Vengeance by casting a mesa and generating mucho tokens while holding back 2 enchantress effects and a rofellos's gift. I'm technically less worried about Disk because Seal of Cleansing has been more than enough to handle that (despite the Landstill player's trickery, you can always one up them with your other outs, the 3 other Seals and the X number of Rofellos's Gifts). That reminds me, Suppression Field also hinders Seal of Cleansing. Not a good thing.

How has your goldfish been with the new hondens vs. Solidarity? Getting to 4 mana, in particular 1 black without using fetches, seems pretty dicey. On top of that, you're hoping to have the 2nd honden to back that up the next turn. I see the earliest possible turn to get out two hondens is by turn 3 (1st turn wild growth, 2nd turn ESG), thus two hondens will be active by turn 5. And this is only the best case scenario; on average I think that Solidarity will still be faster.

[Slowbad]

Well the day of the tournament has come and passed and it never happened. Turns out alot of people were out of town or had something else to do and we didnt' even get 8 people. Turns out that everyone in top 4 would have gotten a FoW and 1st place would of recieve a playset of Tropical Islands. Sorry about not being able to deliver a report. I did a little playtesting with those that showed up. Goblins (smashed), U/r Landstill (Really wierd deck, had spiketails and lavamancers and didn't run counterspells and 4 pyroclasm main.) and this other B/W deck. I lost to him one game because of a first turn hippie with some vindicate support. Anyway I'm going to continue playtesting this deck and possibly Rabid Wombat. If they try to run the tournament again I'll try to show up again and get some acual results.

[74-1123039401]

considering control matchups, in general, tend to take along time, do you scoop it up game1 and side in abunch of hate for games two and three (all they have to do is counter your three win conditions). or do you MD hate for the control matchup. I'm gonna be testing different cards to MD that don't hinder your non-control matchups. for ex., I've considered cuting a mesa or words of wilding for a decree. there has to be a way to win this match before time is called (urza's rage anyone :p )

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

I've considered it, but control is far from unwinnable. There are situations where scooping is advisable; if they have a full hand and you have no threats in hand or in play, for instance, scooping might save you time, and your SB is obviously quite strong against control.

[PunkRocker1134]

With aggro (Goblins) being dominant now. What do you do? Solidarity and Goblins and the decks to beat in my opinion. Iknwo there is an option to ether use Solitary Confinement or Races Solidarity but what about Goblins. IS the plan to get SOlitary Confinement as fast as possible. I think for thsi deck to make a come back Soldarity and Goblins have to beat. Then work on the Landstill match.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

You should all ready be beating Goblins due to Elephant Grass stalling into a Confinement. Solidarity is close to a an auto-loss game 1, but you have a lot of SB options that also answer Landstill, like City of Solitude, Gaea's Blessing, and Choke.

[Zirilian]

What's your SB at the moment then?
Btw, is Landstill still moving away from Vengeance?
If they are, this should be very good for us.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

For the standard list the first page is my SB, though Blessings can switch to Presences if there's no Solidarity around.

And I believe that they're switching more to Disk over, Vengeance, which is much better for Enchantress.

[Zirilian]

Why is there so little discussion on the deck at the moment?
It seems to be very able to beat the top decks (Gro is easier than landstill, Gobs remains beatable, and we should be able to beat Homebrew by letting them die slowly at the hands of Bob).

[Galroth]

@ Zirilian - Unfortunately I disagree with part of your assessment. I fear Solitaire will see even less play than it has. While I don't know if Solitaire has an easier game against Gro than it does against Landstill, Solitaire absolutely scoops against Homebrew. Pikula's deck packs way too much disruption for Solitaire to handle. Whether or not Homebrew will die from Bob while hiding behind solitary confinement is really never a question. Between discard and land destruction you will seldom see a solitary confinement ever operating, much less is it safe due to vindicate. Bluntly stated Solitaire is a combo deck, and Pikula's deck is disruption, which kicks combo in the junk.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

I think he was referring to Elephant Grass, actually.

While I know that Gro is a terrible match-up, I'm not so sure about Homebrew. Sylvan Library and Grass are both good against them, they have no way of dealing with an Argothian, and only Vindicate to answer Presence. And then there's Elephant Grass.

Other possible up-notes; the meta is trending away from Solidarity due to Gro and black, and if that trend continues, Enchantress will no longer have to fear the near auto-loss to Solidarity. That also could theoretically give Survival a more solid place in the meta-game, since it beats black aggro-control decks like Homebrew, and theoretically should beat Gro. If that happens, Enchantress would have two good match-ups in Goblins and Survival, one bad match-up in Gro, and one (for now, without much testing) iffy match-up in Pikula.

But this is mainly speculative and I haven't been playing much Magic lately. There aren't that many people who play the deck because it plays differently than most decks and its fairly expensive, meta-game concerns aside, so I'm not surprised that nothing has happened with the deck in the past couple months.

I also disagree with the assertion that Gro is an easier match-up than Landstill. I've found the opposite to be the case. Landstill is slightly unfavorable, but Gro is very much so.

[MattH]

they have no way of dealing with an Argothian
They do have Engineered Plague.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Touche. That's still a bit slow though, and it's a 2x.

[hacksign]

What do you think about the list that top 8ed in the Japanese extended GP?

Here there is another discussion going on at the mana drain:

GREEN:27
Argothian Enchantress: 4
Enchantresses Presence: 4
Sylvan Library: 4
Ground Seal: 4
Wild Growth: 4
Exploration: 4
Elephant Grass: 2
Abundance: 1

WHITE:10
Sterling Grove: 4
Seal of Cleansing: 2
Solitary Confinement: 2
Word's of Worship: 1
Sacred Mesa: 1

MANA:23
Forest: 11
Savannah: 4
Windswept Heath: 4
Serra's Sanctum: 2
Flodded Strand: 1
Plains: 1

SIDEBOARD:15
Compost: 3
Choke: 3
Elephant Grass: 2
Aura of Silence: 1
Aura Fracture: 1
Sacred Ground: 1
Karmic Justice: 1
Holistic Wisdom: 1
Night Soil: 1
Gaea's Blessing: 1

A note about some of the card choices:
Exploration: was originally Gaea's Touch, and when I first tested this build, it performed very well for me, the advantage being able to "cycle" it out mana-wise, or draw a card in midgame with no loss of mana. Also getting some mana from under prison, or the occasional randomness like contamination. Though as many of you may have guessed, there were just SO MANY spells competing for turn 2, that the speed factored in, along with the "basic forest" draw back, so Exploration took those slots, and have performed consistently better for me.

Sylvan Library: is so powerful (especially in combination with Word's of Worship and Abundance) that I made the jump to 4 in the MD. I won't lie, there are times I trip over them, but I personally feel its early game power, versus both control and aggro, out-way this occasional drawback.

Abundance: may seem like a "win more card", though it can break a game open for you. Even by itself it is a strong filtering mechanism, especially in combination with Sylvan Library. It also serves as a pseudo win condition, to stop from decking.

Word's of Worship: started as a 2nd Sacred Mesa but after I gave it a try, it grew on me. It works as a way to control how many cards you are drawing per turn, can work as a stalling component against fast aggro. Specicfily I am speaking of aggro that does not allow a lot of setup time, and it would be less than optimum to lay an early Solitary Confinement locking down your draw and forcing your hand. When combined with Sylvan Library, especially in online play, when this gets going, the opponent often becomes disheartened, making them concede

Choke or Carpet of Flowers?? I tested both in this sideboard slot, and though Carpet of Flowers was strong, it can really accelerate the early game, in a manner most blue mages can not keep up with. In the later game, Choke made a much bigger impact on the game, and usually a must counter. I suggest testing both, but for me, right now, it's Choke.

Aura Fracture: is experimental, it's left over from my old Keeper days, and I only ever used it once... but I can not make myself let it go, it seems like it may be pivotal in the mirror, along with Aura of Silence

Holistic Wisdom: will come in versus discard and control, one more must counter, and may be a surprise since game 1 will have seen those non-synergistic Ground Seal's.

TEH TECH:
Night Soil has been an MVP versus survival, and even though this deck sports 4 MD Ground Seal's Recursion MD still present a problem. Night Soil does not target the cards in a graveyard, allowing both cards to be in use at the same time.

Gaea's Blessing: could come in against discard and control, but is mainly used as a surprise versus High Tide.

Please let me know what you guys think.

-Freddie

http://freddieart.homeip.net

[Slay]

Considering how that list loses to a single Force of Will game 1, it doesn't seem taht competitive.

What makes it better than the already accepted list, except the far more fragile win conditions.
-Slay

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

I like 4x Ground Seal with Life from the Loam running around.

Theoretically that list can win just by decking, with either Abundance or Words of Worship. But then you run into time constraints.

What I don't like is only 2x Grass.

[Lego]

Is 4 Sylvan Library the standard now? I've never run more than three. I suppose they have synergy with Words of War (right? I think?) but after the first they're all just useless, and 3 usually seems like enough to drop it turn two with some frquency.

[dontbiteitholmes]

So whats the hot tech on solitaire now adays. I think the days of wild growth are at an end thanks alot to goblins running ports, which is quite the bitch when this is the matchup you most need to shoot out the gate in. I have been testing my list quite a bit and can't decide if I want Swords or not. They really are shit against gobos unless you get them in your opening hand and burn off a lackey with them, but they just suck late game. Then there's the part where they are better then expected against thresh, especially in taking care of Mages and flying creatures or making the opponent choose between countering or getting slowed down and either way risking you going combo nuts. Also they would be nice to have against some random aggro/reanimator or if anyone has the testes to run welder/titan.

Also how is it that Solidarity owns Solitaire. I mean is it just me or is grove/solitaire game over as long as you can keep it up. Add to that the fact most people suck at playing Solidarity and I'm not saying this is a favorable matchup but is it really as unwinnable as people make it sound. Also if your like me you stick a couple rule o' laws in your sideboard which in theory really gums up their deck (and is not all that fun for you but hey it reallly hurts them and all you need at that point is grove and they are looking at one hell of a mess). I haven't looked at a list for solidarity in a while so someone please tell me how accurate this all is or if solid. has new tech to handle such bussiness.

[Zilla]

Also how is it that Solidarity owns Solitaire. I mean is it just me or is grove/solitaire game over as long as you can keep it up.
It would be game over, if they didn't consistently win before you set it up.

[Mad Zur]

No, it wouldn't be. They play multiple Wishes and multiple bounce spells in the board.

Two Groves and a (supported) Confinement is game over, unless they're playing Hibernation. Almost none do now, though.

[Lego]

Confinement/Grove isn't enough because it doesn't stop them from going off, except for the Freeze. By the time they're ready to cast the Freeze, they should be able to Wish, Twincast it, or just Wish twice, and bounce both before Freezing for the win. It's even worse against Spring Tide, because in the process of going off, they'll just go infinite and bounce all your permanents before stroking for the win.

That's why the matchup is so bad, you need to put on more pressure.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Makes sense maybe I will back up the count on those SB rule of laws. Another reallly bad matchup is Rifter (and prolly Wombat too), anyone got any sideboard tech that might make this a little better. So far I run Holistic Wisdom MD and a single Second Sunrise in the side (for a late game anti-board sweeper). I could see Suppresion Field but it fucks me as hard as it does them and doesn't answer my main problem of board sweeping effects. There prolly is no way to make this a possitive matchup. Also back again to why don't people run Moats MD?

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

I disagree. They have virtually no disruption and you can kill them before the turn 6 at the earliest Vengeance, which is your only concern. Either that or save a good hand to re-establish your board after a Vengeance. Post-board you bring in Karmic Justice, which wrecks their only game plan against you.

The deck's bad match-ups are Solidarity and Gro, which are prevalent enough to make the deck not a very good meta-choice.

Against Solidarity, my SB for a while was Null Chamber(naming Wish) + Gaea's Blessing, plus City of Solitude and Choke as back up. Some of that stuff was somewhat effective vs Threshold too; Blessing could kill threshold itself, and City and Choke worked like they're supposed to. But having so many bad game 1 match-ups in the field is a big deterant.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Ah yes Karmic Justic, I totally forgot. Also I never win pre-turn 6 which prolly has a lot to do with me not running wild growth, which prolly has a lot to do with me not wanting to lose to Ports... Fuck lackey ban port :wink:. Yeah i guess when I can make them have to justice for a fuckton or bassically armageddon themselves by which time I should have won anyways. The thing that was really getting me was rifter kept pyroclasming away my early enchantresses and then having 2x disenchant when I had a presence under a grove :( bad times.

[dontbiteitholmes]

OK top 8 at Duel for Duals amidst some bullshit (I mean I've been playing Magic since revised was making way for 4th and I have never, ever in over a thousand games + have i dropped exactly one card at my foot and not noticed while shuffling my deck but w/e). Anyways real quick lots of people wrote off enchantress as a crap deck, but it's because they think of it as a combo deck when it's actually a control deck with a sick draw engine. Here's my list.
-Land-
4x Windswept Heath
4x Savannah
1x Plateau
1x Taiga
3x Plains
7x Forest
2x Serra's Sanctum
-Creatures-
4x Argothian Enchantress
1x Eternal Dragon
-Spells-
1x Karmic Justice
4x Enchantress Presence
1x Holistic Wisdom
4x Exploration
4x Sterling Grove
4x Elephant Grass
4x Solitary Confinement
2x Seal of Cleansing
1x Ghostly Prison
2x Sacred Mesa
2x Moat
2x Mirri's Guile
1x Words of War
1x Sylvan Library

-Sideboard-
1x Seal of Cleansing
1x Aura of Silence
2x Karmic Justice
1x Sacred Ground
1x Parallax Wave
3x Choke
1x Humility
1x Null Chamber
2x Rule of Law
2x City of Solitude

So I'll go over a quick rundown of some of the (non-obvious) choices.
Eternal Dragon- Yeah it was not the right idea in hindsight. I thought I had a tech move in here somewhere but it should have been a MD Parallax Wave to take care of random creatures (Mages, those random gobos and such).
Mirri's Guile- Shits on Sylvan Library, no doubt.
Ghostly Prison- Holy crap, this one of won me more games then basic lands!!! It's still best left a one of though.
Moat- MD enchantment hate is at an all time low, Moat shuts down... All but Hippies in Pikula, all but Crusader or Dragon in Thresh, and puts Goblins in burn me mode. Basically Moat on the board is good times.
Elephant Grass- So good, buys the time you need to get board position.

At any rate aside from the last round bullshit it was a good tourney. A special props to the one dude who quit to let me win so one of us would have a chance at the top 8 (a draw was death at this point). In the stun of fucking myself/getting fucked out of a win I forgot to find you but next time I see you at a tourny get at me man you made my top 8 possible when most people would have been a dick. I didn't forget what I told you after our match and I intend to stick to that, and slops to your friend for testing my patience, but whatever I can't blame you for that.

[MattH]

Nice to see this deck get some love.

Guile: I don't understand your comment. Could you just not find more Libraries or what?

How did you like the Words of War? This has always seemed less flexible to me than Words of Wind and I never really liked the idea of splashing for just one enchantment anyway. Especially with Guiles over Libraries, how did you feel about this slot?

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Congratulations.

I like the MDed Moats in the enviroment.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Mirri's Guille
-PROS-
1: Drops first turn. This is soooo huge for this deck meaning you get a ghetto quasi-brainstorm every turn for the rest of the game.
2: Works with Confinement in play.
3: Has sick synergy with sac lands. Upkeep Mirri's Guile, look and if you see nothing good break a sac land before draw or draw the good card then break land setting up 3 new cards next turn.
4: Costs 1 mana, which comes in handy when you want to draw enchantress cards off it.
-CONS-
1: No "synergy" with Words of War.
2: Can't pay life to draw the extra cards as with Library.

Sylvan Library
-PROS-
1: Can draw extra cards in a pinch.
2: So called synergy with Words of War.
3: Provides needed dig for the deck (but so does Mirri's)
-CONS-
1: With Confinement in play it's just eye candy.
2: Costs 2 which means it's a turn 2 thing (unless you run ESG shame) and is not as good a guile when you are going off.
3: Turn 2...... I mean really what more can I say.

Forreal 99/100 times I deal damage with Words of War I already have them locked down Solitary + Grove + Enchantress x2 (atleast, more like 3-5 though really). For me it's no contest as to Mirri's just being 1000x better. I mean, you want to drop either that or Exploration turn 1 most of the time then turn 2 you are ready to get into some Enchantress, Grove, or enchantment stall action (Elephant Grass maybe). The so called synergy of Library + Words is garbage. If anyone can name a deck that is actually played where they are going to let you dick around for 3 or so turns with Words and Library without Solitary out I'd love to hear it. So yeah turn 1 drop, in the end what more can I say.

As far as Words of War this deck is slow as it is, without Words of War I have one REAL win condition that is slow as crap and bends at the waist for Goblin Sharpshooter. Playing Words of War then just winning is nice when there's like 2 mins. left in the round and your opponent is fine with a draw.

[Lego]

I always found that Holmes is right, and Sylvan Library didn't do much with Words of War. With the Wilding it wasn't bad, as pumping out 3 2/2s every turn against Control will usually win you the game, but if you're stuck there, you're probably losing.

Props on the finish, I love Moat in this environment. Yes, Shame on the Dragon, but we all make mistakes. How did your Sideboard work for you? It looks pretty good, although I'm not always sure what would come in/go out in certain matchups.

What were your hard/easy matches for the day? Props again!

[Hoojo]

How is Holistic Wisdom working out? I like the idea of turning late game unneeded cards into already used goodies, but how often did you really use it.

[dontbiteitholmes]

How is Holistic Wisdom working out? I like the idea of turning late game unneeded cards into already used goodies, but how often did you really use it.
Well the I only used it in one (maybe two I forget) games the whole tourny but it saved me the game I remeber using it, and the only reason I didn't use it more was because I didn't need to. Okay so the one game I did use it I had Confinement out and letting it die would have quickly ended the match, I had Holistic Wisdom and Sterling Grove in play and some lesser enchantment in my hand with 3 untapped mana. End of opponents turn I sacced the Sterling Grove to put enchantress Presence on top and used Wisdom to get Grove back in my hand. I untapped replayed Grove, drew Enchantress, sacced grove again to put another Enchantress on top and played the Enchantress from my hand. All that sure made winning the game a lot more solid then coming off the top looking for enchantments to keep Confinement out. In the end I wouldn't take Holistic Wisdom out of the main (I think I may have also used it in one game to get back a Serra's Sactum that had been Wasted but that may have been playtesting it was a long day) When you run 3 main win conditions being able to get them back is pretty house, also Wisdom lets you pull lots of janky plays that you really shouldn't be able to otherwise as well as giving you something good to do with late game Mirri's Guile's and such.

More to the point I think Dragon needs to come out of the deck, but as to what to replace it with I'm not sure. I was thinking adding Paralax Wave to the main would be nice against Thresh especially the Meddling Mage version as the deck currently has no MD answer for Meddling Mage naming Words and Sacred Mesa. I will be working hard to find a MD list that gives me a good game against UWG Thresh while not hurting other matchups.

[Slay]

Have you considered Decree of Justice? It's always been great for me when I've drawn it.
-Slay

[dontbiteitholmes]

Have you considered Decree of Justice? It's always been great for me when I've drawn it.
-Slay
Yeah but it has ultrapoor synergy with Moat so it's not MD material, I have been tooling this deck slightly trying to work out something to make the game against Thresh stronger and it's possible that the answer may lie in Decree in the SB. My sideboard strat for Thresh was (-2 Moat, -2 Mirri's Guile, -1 Sylvan Library, -1 Seal of Cleansing, -1 Solitary Confinement, +2 City of Solitude, +3 Choke, +1 Parallax Wave, +1 Humility) The Guile's and Librarys come out because I don't need dig as much as I need to drop as many "must counter" spells as possible, the Humility and Wave give me options against Mages as well as just being good in gerenal for this matchup and while Humility has bad synergy with Enchantress they only have 12-14 creatures so blocking one to buy time is only so bad. Choke has awesome synergy with Elephant Grass and Ghostly Prison which is key. If I could manage to make 2 more board slots for Decrees I would have 2 uncounterable/unmagable win conditions which would make me sleep a lot tighter and would have synergy with Humility.
All in all though it looks as though Solidarity will be a problem matchup in the future due to the strength of Remand which is bad news for this deck.

***Also wow I just realized there is an errata on Mirri's Guile that makes it's effect a "begining of upkeep" effect. This means you can stack so you look at the top 3 cards before you decide whether or not to discard to Confinement. This should cement Mirri's Guile as 100x better then Sylvan Library***

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Has anyone tested Faith's Fetters?

[Slay]

Fetters would be damn good against Mystic Enforcer, but it strikes meas the very definition of a narrow card.

@dontbiteitholmes' sideboard: have you completely just given up any cahnce of winning against combo decks?
-Slay

[dontbiteitholmes]

Fetters would be damn good against Mystic Enforcer, but it strikes meas the very definition of a narrow card.

@dontbiteitholmes' sideboard: have you completely just given up any cahnce of winning against combo decks?
-Slay
If by Combo decks, you mean IGGy Pop, Beltcher, and that gay shit with the eggs then my gameplan is to hope people are smart enough not to play them or to get into the winning brackets quick so I don't have to play them. If you mean Solidarity I have Choke, City of Solitude, Rule of Law, and Null Chamber against them. Not that this is anywhere near enough to make this a good matchup but at the same time it's not quite rolling over and playing dead which is what most other control decks are going to do when facing down this deck. It's pretty much a given I'm going to be going first game 2 which means laying down any of my sideboard cards turn 2 before he gets into Remand range is very possible, and from there I just hope for a quick Sterling Grove I guess to give me an inch to go off with. If anyone has a better idea for what to do for this matchup without making sideboard slots that are totally wasted on the rest of the format, and are better then Rule of Laws (which currently are my anti-Solidarity sideboard slots that are totally wasted on the rest of the format), and don't require another color splash, then please let me know. I mean there's nothing I'd like better then to run In the Eyes of Chaos or even Mana Breach but that's just not gonna happen as Words of War wins me more games (that I would draw with Words of Wind) then I plan on losing to Solidarity. Not to mention only 3-4 people have the skills to play this deck in such a manner that they will make it to round 4 or so and still be in a possition to make top 8.
Basically any deck is going to have really bad matchups. Luckily for me my bad matchups are 3-4 combo decks that suck and are terrible metagame calls, and one combo deck that is really fucking good and will probobaly beat my ass no matter what I do with my sideboard. (But only a handful of people have the skills to play without sucking) In the end I'm more worried about UWG Thresh as it's a matchup I'm going to run into more often and is still a really hard matchup. That being said I have been working aggresively on making this deck better against UWG and addressed the matter of them being able to Mage away both my win conditions leaving me looking stupid game 1. In modding my sideboard for this matchup I also managed to make a sideboard where I could side out all of my dead cards against Solidarity (where I had left in 2 Elephant Grass previously). I will work on it more and continue to test and wait 'till I am sure I like my changes before I post them here.
[edit]- Also Solidarity is still only a marginally good meta game choice (unless you are ultra-sick with it). Note that Gearhart dodged Thresh and Deadguy all the way to top 8 (both of which are marginal/bad matchups for him), I on the other hand have somewhere between 40/60 with Thresh and game against Deadguy that is better then most people are willing to believe. I made a play error G1 (then he dropped 2 Confidants that stayed around for about 10 turns and he took all of 5 damage off them) and lost then beat it G2 for the draw after the match he was like, "Everything in your deck says screw Deadguy." (Exploration, Elephant Grass, Moat, Sterling Grove, Confinement, Karmic Justice, Sacred Ground, and of course Enchantress draw engine, yeah I couldn't agree more)

Has anyone tested Faith's Fetters?
Parrallax Wave, Moat >>>>>>>> Faith's Fetter's

[Slay]

Mana Breach is pretty good, if you're willing to cut the red and go for the blue. It's good with Exploration and is also pretty neat against Gro.
-Slay

[dontbiteitholmes]

Mana Breach is pretty good, if you're willing to cut the red and go for the blue. It's good with Exploration and is also pretty neat against Gro.
-Slay
I wouldn't even side it in against Gro, they run such a tight mana curve now adays it would hurt me more then them. Also I have no plans to cut red as I feel time constraints are working against me as it is and not everyone is going to scoop the moment you bounce all their permenants.
[edit] My new plan is to pimp out Mana Breach as a good sideboard card for Thresh to run against Solidarity. It's better then wasting my sideboard slots on it.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Neither Parallax Wave nor Moat answer Disk, Survival of the Fittest, or Tradewind Rider. Faith's Fetters seems worth testing because it can answer creatures as well as most artifacts and enchantments.

[scrumdogg]

Originally Posted by Slay
Have you considered Decree of Justice? It's always been great for me when I've drawn it.
-Slay

Yeah but it has ultrapoor synergy with Moat so it's not MD material


Ummmmm....the cycling ability has poor synergy with Moat, but hardcasting it via Serra's Sanctum has been quite good here in Woosta every time I have either played against the deck or seen the games. That can be a retarded number of Anegls... Also, you aren't going to have Moat active every game nor do you need to maintain it if you just cycled for a bazillion soldiers, it doesn;t seem optimal to Seal your own Moat, but if it wins you the game.... It is also a fine play to cycle after your opponent handily spends resources Naturalizing/Disking/Disenchanting/etc etc your Moat. I would experiment some more as 2x Decree has been very effective to date up here.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Originally Posted by Slay
Have you considered Decree of Justice? It's always been great for me when I've drawn it.
-Slay

Yeah but it has ultrapoor synergy with Moat so it's not MD material


Ummmmm....the cycling ability has poor synergy with Moat, but hardcasting it via Serra's Sanctum has been quite good here in Woosta every time I have either played against the deck or seen the games. That can be a retarded number of Anegls... Also, you aren't going to have Moat active every game nor do you need to maintain it if you just cycled for a bazillion soldiers, it doesn;t seem optimal to Seal your own Moat, but if it wins you the game.... It is also a fine play to cycle after your opponent handily spends resources Naturalizing/Disking/Disenchanting/etc etc your Moat. I would experiment some more as 2x Decree has been very effective to date up here.
Decree has poor synergy with Moat and I am going to want to drop Moat in the majority of my matchups. Me coming out from under a Moat is usually going to force me to break all my Groves and then Seal my own Moat. This is something that is just not going to happen as most games coming out of Moat = death. However one thing I have been testing is putting 2x Decrees in the sideboard and taking out my Moats for Humility against Gro. This Takes care of my Mage problem as they can't Mage everything (Wave, Humility, Words, and the million other things it would be a good Idea to Mage) and gives me 2 uncounterable win conditions that become beat ass when Humility drops (and I find they usually try to counter my early enchantments so they will either run out of counters or have let important lock elements drop by this point). This will take more testing but in theory it seems very promising because Moat is not needed as much game 2 with Choke having such sick synergy with Elephant Grass and Ghostly Prison. Also hardcasting Angels doesn't address the fact that Gro runs counters which is why Decree is such a good choice in the first place (it can't be countered).

Neither Parallax Wave nor Moat answer Disk, Survival of the Fittest, or Tradewind Rider. Faith's Fetters seems worth testing because it can answer creatures as well as most artifacts and enchantments.
Under Sterling Grove, Parrallax Wave answers Tradewind Rider. Seal of Cleansing answers Disk and Survival of the Fittest more handidly then Fetter's and can be Holistic Wisdomed back to my hand at the first sign of trouble while Fetter's would still be on the permanent waiting to be disenchanted.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Under Sterling Grove, Parrallax Wave answers Tradewind Rider. Seal of Cleansing answers Disk and Survival of the Fittest more handidly then Fetter's and can be Holistic Wisdomed back to my hand at the first sign of trouble while Fetter's would still be on the permanent waiting to be disenchanted.

But none of those cards answers all of those threats. My point isn't that the card is busted, but due to the flexibility of threats that it can answered, I don't see why it doesn't deserve testing before being dismissed.

[dontbiteitholmes]

But none of those cards answers all of those threats. My point isn't that the card is busted, but due to the flexibility of threats that it can answered, I don't see why it doesn't deserve testing before being dismissed.
Well I just wrote up my whole new list complete with explanations for all the card choices and my computer decided to freeze up while I was on the 2nd to last card so we'll just do it like this.
//NAME: Controlling Bitch
// land
4 Savannah
1 Plateau
1 Taiga
2 Serra's Sanctum
3 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
7 Forest
// 1cc
4 Elephant Grass
3 Mirri's Guile
4 Exploration
// 2cc
1 Seal of Cleansing
4 Sterling Grove
4 Argothian Enchantress
// 3cc
1 Karmic Justice
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Words of War
4 Solitary Confinement
2 Sacred Mesa
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Holistic Wisdom
4 Enchantress's Presence
// 4cc
1 Parallax Wave
2 Moat
// sideboard
SB: 1 Aura of Silence
SB: 1 Seal of Cleansing
SB: 1 Null Chamber
SB: 2 City of Solitude
SB: 2 Rule of Law
SB: 3 Choke
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 2 Decree of Justice
SB: 1 Karmic Justice
SB: 1 Sacred Ground

Here's the list I have been working with since Monday. It stills needs work but is slightly improved from Sunday's list I feel, which on a related note should have left Levin crying. If you have any questions on my card choices I would love to field them, also if you have any input on what to cut for Fetter's in testing I would like to hear your what/why.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

I have a few qualms with the list;

1. Squee; the card only works with Confinement, and is otherwise useless. Even then, without the Enchantress engine, you're screwed if they draw an answer. And with only 1, the odds of supporting Confinement lock with him alone aren't worth the additional dead draw versus control.

2. 4x Solitary Confinement; I've never found aggro to be much of a problem with 4x Elephant Grass, so I can only assume this is for combo? But with aggro-control and control signifigantly more prominent than combo, we come back to the issue of dead draws.

3. I would test Fetters over either Ghostly Prison or Moat #2. Honestly I'd try Wave over Prison at any rate.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I have a few qualms with the list;

1. Squee; the card only works with Confinement, and is otherwise useless. Even then, without the Enchantress engine, you're screwed if they draw an answer. And with only 1, the odds of supporting Confinement lock with him alone aren't worth the additional dead draw versus control.

2. 4x Solitary Confinement; I've never found aggro to be much of a problem with 4x Elephant Grass, so I can only assume this is for combo? But with aggro-control and control signifigantly more prominent than combo, we come back to the issue of dead draws.

3. I would test Fetters over either Ghostly Prison or Moat #2. Honestly I'd try Wave over Prison at any rate.

1: Here's the thing, many people don't run MD disenchant effects (pretty much all good Gobs and Gro players) so Squee under Confinement is game over (which happens more often then you would believe). It's kind of a hard aspect of the deck for me to explain but I know you have skills in Magic so you will know as much as I do you can usually verbally ask someone if they run any disenchants MD and thier face will answer for you. It's also a needed answer against Gro or any other deck that has the power to save all it's counters for your 4 "win conditions" (Holistic Wisdom, Words of War, and Sacred Mesa). Now if they manage to counter all those a Confinement + Squee is GG, and of course is one of the first things to leave the main Game 2. Not to mention its extremely marginal synergy with Elephant Grass and Ghostly Prison.
2: No this is here for Aggro. I had it at 3 Confinements main but bumped back up to 4 after testing. Confinement lock is game over against Aggro 99% of the time game 1. There's nothing worse then having enough cards to sustain lock and not have Confinement. Also it's easy enough to take 1 out of the main if you feel it necisary when you go to the side. It's worth noting that many times Aggro will have you hanging onto life by a thread when you get lock out and often have burn or abilites to finish you off with even with a Moat down.
3: All I can say is test with and without Prison before you talk about taking it out. This won me 3-5 games in the tourney alone, and I'm not even joking. Prison is good times often keeping them choosing between casting threats, playing burn, using land hate, or attacking and all without a cumulative upkeep. Seriously Prison is such a key card in this deck (as a one of) and Moat is practically a lock against so many decks. The life gain from Fetter's is not really an issue so much since I just need to live long enough to get Confinement lock down against Aggro then the game is basically over. Fetter's is a pinpoint answer to the shotgun blast effect of the cards you suggest I take out to include it. At least that's how I see it. I mean your example to including Fetter's was I only have 1 MD answer each to Tradewind, Nev. Disk, and Survival when I faced all of 4 Survivals total out of all of those cards the whole tourney. A much more real threat is a bucket full of angry Gobs, and a much more real answer to that is Prison/Moat/Confinement lock.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

1. I've seen a lot of threshold with MD answers, actually. Either Explosives or some kind of Disenchant effect. That's probably the chief concern. The only deck that I would feel safe assuming doesn't have an answer is Goblins. If I didn't think Grasses, a Moat, and a Wave(what I've been testing with) were sufficient back up to Confinement, I'd keep upping the Ghostly Prison count long before I considered Squee. If the universally accepted Gro lists that didn't include any answer for Confinement, I might feel differently, but I don't believe that's the case. I could be wrong.

2. The thing is that it kind of makes it harder to substain a Confinement when you keep upping the count of expensive enchantments. In a way, 4x Confinements makes Confinement weaker. The other thing is that with 3x Confinement and 3x Grove I've seldom had an issue getting Confinement out when the engine was in place, and you're running 4x Grove so I think its an extraneous slot.

3. Its not just Survival; for instance, Mystic Enforcer/Fledgeling Dragon is answered neither by Prison nor Moat. Neither is straight burn, Disk, or Survival. I honestly think that only facing 4x Survival that day is kind of besides the point; against Gro, Survival, Landstill, Vault, and a variety of other decks, Fetters would prove more useful than the additional Moat or the Ghostly Prison.

Again, all I'm saying is that its worth testing. How about this; I'll test Prison, and you test Fetters?

[Hoojo]

I just want to say, I agree with Spatula. 4x Confinement seems a little too much with 4x Sterling Grove. I don't like the Squee slot either, but I haven't tested it.

I want to touch on the fact that you still have Words of War maindeck, but no Sylvan Library. Words of War as a win condition only seems viable to me if you have Sylvan Library, preferably in multiples. 2x Sylvan Library and a Words of War is 10 damage during your draw phase.

I like the Moats in the deck, and 4x Elephant Grass, 2x Moat, and a Ghostly Prison aren't enough protection, I would probably go the extra Ghostly Prison.

I'm glad to see this deck being reworked, and think it still has potential.

[MattH]

Fetters seems like a good idea, although it IS also one of those "expensive enchantments" which make Confinement stall. I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Fetters seems like a good idea, although it IS also one of those "expensive enchantments" which make Confinement stall. I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand.

That's true, but lacking an engine, it does something on its own, whereas Confinement is only a fog. That difference is critical against aggro-control, which is my main reason for suggesting it.

@Hoojo - I actually kind of agree with his reasoning behind Guile vs Library. The WoWar + Library rarely came up, and being able to go first turn Guile is probably more relevant, plus its lack of anti-synergy with Confinement.

[Hoojo]

I agree that Mirri's Guile is an excellent card choice, and I would include at least two in any build. My point is that I would not use Words of War without Sylvan Library, particularly when including four Solitary Confinements. Seems to me, when utilizing an enchantment that makes you skip your draw phase, a win condition that relies on drawing cards isn't a good choice. Seems Goblin Bombardment would be more fitting.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

But without the Enchantress engine in place, Confinement is unsupportable, so in order for you to win, you need to be drawing cards. So Words of War still works.

Goblin Bombardment would work except that it requires you to resolve both your win conditions, which is an unnecessary liability against control.

[Hoojo]

This may be too expensive, but has anyone tested Broken Fall/Molting Skin? With a single creature in play on either side of the board, you could regenerate and replay for multiple card draws that could be burned with Words of War under a Solitary Confinement without emptying your hand...

[Moby Dick]

@library vs. guile- have a SDT effect is cute, i would much rather be able to draw extra cards agains control, and the combo with words won me a few to many games not to run it.

@squee- if you really want a squee confinment lock, just run a few eternal dragons as an alt. win against control + land search.

i've been testing solitaire with e.tutor along with afew silver bullet artifacts in the board, andx its been doing really well with a few tournament wins so now im tesing it with out them.

i've been testing urza's rage in the board, and it's pretty much turns my worst match ups into near auto wins.
rage is better than decree because it get around orims chant and doubles as removal, like an uncounterable bolt for those pesky tradewind riders

EDIT: most people know this, but i just realized ground seal hits LftL, yippi...

[Moby Dick]

ok, this deck has good matchups against anything but thresh/gro. i always seem to be losing to those decks, what can solitaire md or sb to help these matchups- yard disruption just isnt eneough

[ho_master]

What I'm wondering is how did wild growth go the wayside...but I see the need to increase the number of actual answers to other decks (more elephant grasses, more moats [blegh, pricey]). However, I can't get enough of Utopia Sprawl. This card kicks Wild Growth's ass in ever way possible in this deck and allows you to broaden your card search on Gatherer or SCG or whatever for all enchantments to splash. If you wanted to be crazy, you could run ALL (okay, not the black words) the damn Words in your deck with Utopia Sprawl turning your Forests into Bayous or Tropical Islands or Taigas or your Savannahs into SUPER duals. Basically, this just stabilizes manabase very well for cheap and furthers the enchantment cause.

Alright, I really can't tell yet whether or not the deck would benefit more from cutting these mana accel slots for more relevant cards, but I just love the fact that you can expand a little with Utopia Sprawl. I've been waiting all of Ravnica block for new enchantments that would help out, and I'm more than a little surprised that the one I'd be the most interested about would be a better Wild Growth.

I think new splashables could be In the Eye of Chaos, Engineered Plague, Parallax Nexus, Price of Glory (say good night, Solidarity), all very relevant cards. If you could tweak the manabase more to support more of the double off-color enchantments, then maybe more can be found, but this is off the top of my head. Maybe Teferi's Moat for a cheaper (monetary) Moat or something.

And I really don't think that the "Enchant Forest" part is going to be a problem considering about 80% of your lands are Forests (including heaths-->forest/dual)

Searching through Gatherer:
Natural Emergence 2RG
When Natural Emergence comes into play, return a red or green enchantment you control to its owner’s hand.
Lands you control are 2/2 creatures with first strike. They’re still lands.

I always wanted to try this, but this could be just as good a finisher. Cast it 3rd turn to have 3 2/2's ready to rock and roll and stomp all over werebears and...stuff. By the same token, has anyone seriously attempted to use Opalescence? Are these approaches not favored because staying out of combat with WoW is superior?

[dontbiteitholmes]

What I'm wondering is how did wild growth go the wayside...but I see the need to increase the number of actual answers to other decks (more elephant grasses, more moats [blegh, pricey]). However, I can't get enough of Utopia Sprawl. This card kicks Wild Growth's ass in ever way possible in this deck and allows you to broaden your card search on Gatherer or SCG or whatever for all enchantments to splash. If you wanted to be crazy, you could run ALL (okay, not the black words) the damn Words in your deck with Utopia Sprawl turning your Forests into Bayous or Tropical Islands or Taigas or your Savannahs into SUPER duals. Basically, this just stabilizes manabase very well for cheap and furthers the enchantment cause.

Alright, I really can't tell yet whether or not the deck would benefit more from cutting these mana accel slots for more relevant cards, but I just love the fact that you can expand a little with Utopia Sprawl. I've been waiting all of Ravnica block for new enchantments that would help out, and I'm more than a little surprised that the one I'd be the most interested about would be a better Wild Growth.

I think new splashables could be In the Eye of Chaos, Engineered Plague, Parallax Nexus, Price of Glory (say good night, Solidarity), all very relevant cards. If you could tweak the manabase more to support more of the double off-color enchantments, then maybe more can be found, but this is off the top of my head. Maybe Teferi's Moat for a cheaper (monetary) Moat or something.

And I really don't think that the "Enchant Forest" part is going to be a problem considering about 80% of your lands are Forests (including heaths-->forest/dual)
First I'd have to say if you can't afford Moats you may want to try a different build or deck. Not only does Tefari's Moat require a splash it also costs 5 which can be a killer. Wild Growth has only "fallen by the wayside" in that I didn't run it and did well without it. Allowing your opponent to effectively shutdown 2 mana sources with 1 spell/hatelands not only sets you back a lot but also gives them 2 for 1 card advantage. Not only that but it really isn't needed. Adding Wild Growth effects makes your matchup worse vs. Goblins and way worse vs. Pikula while not improving Gro and only marginally improving Combo (but you still prolly lose). The day may be coming where this deck will need to be reworked in response to the combo players who are drooling at the chance to play with the new tutor. This may make this deck suck for a while since such a meta technically makes Goblins worse and UWG Thresh more popular as well as combo which is bad news for this deck. So put this deck on ice until people realize combo still sucks (hopefully).

[Rastadon]

I'd think combo would be easy for this deck. Rule of Law is in your color and you can back it up easily with Grove. Is it simply speed when it comes down to it?

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

I disagree with the assertion that Wild Growth makes goblins a harder match-up. There was an argument to be made when Port was being run, but Port is a pretty rare sight these days; Burrows seems much more common.

And looking at Wild Growth by a match-up basis is flawed; its a proactive card, not a reactive one. There aren't many specific decks and cards that directly impact the strength of Wild Growth in Enchantress. The main failing of the card is against control, where it's often fluff. On the other hand, it can accelerate you and let you try to take advantage of the early game.

And to address the original thought, I think Utopia Spawl should definitely replace Wild Growth.

[ho_master]

I guess I've been out of the loop a while to not know that Goblin Burrows is the new tech. Ehh...I don't get it, but I'm not a gobbo player.

I love Moat, but I feel that Humility gets the job done better and easier. Coupled with Elephant Grass, you stall for eternity against aggro/aggro-control and stop Meddling Mages in whatever deck they're in from hosing you. Bad synergy with Argothian Enchantress be damned; Mystic Enforcer is a worse problem.

How does sticking in a 1 of for Karmic Justice/Ghostly Prison work out? Also, I think Holistic Wisdom has never really worked out for me, and I'd rather run Rofellos's Gift for any sort of recursion. There are cute tricks you can do if Solitary Confinement is going down and you're about to eat it, but in all honesty, tying up 3 mana on a prior turn to cast that probably was a factor in getting into that situation.

I would love to see if it is possible to run +1 Bayou and -1 Plains, cutting Moats and Ghostly Prison for Engineered Plagues (possibly). Utopia Sprawl needs to be in, of course, and the meta would have to be heavy goblins. Against silly Gro decks, I'm going to just say the most obvious thing that occurred to me: run Circle of Protection: Green. Granted, it doesn't stop Meddling mages from plinking you, but let's be honest, what are you worried about most: 4/4 and 6/6 and 3/3 fatties stomping on your face or a couple of 2/2's? It'll buy you time to find the concrete Solitary Confinement, and they'll only have so many disenchant effects. I guess the only downside is MD Pithing Needle in Gro hoses you even more, and they're not likely to side it out in Game 2 if you side in CoP:Green. But hey, that's why we have Seal of Cleansing, eh? If you want to be real cute, you can run Sphere of Duty or...

Protective Sphere:
2W
1, Pay 1 life: Prevent all damage that would be dealt to you this turn by a source of your choice that shares a color with the mana spent on this activation cost. (Colorless mana prevents no damage.)
[Gro's creature colors = Savannah]

Another possibility might be Web of Inertia:
2U
At the beginning of each opponent’s combat phase, that player may remove a card in his or her graveyard from the game. If the player doesn’t, creatures he or she controls can’t attack you this turn.

Or shoot, last possibility I can think of to stop Gro is Worship. Argothian is untargetable, so no StP to save them. But, if they're running Explosives, then that's no good.

By the way, my deck currently has both E. Tutors and Sterling Groves to fetch for Enchantments (like Moby Dick incidentally). I have mixed feelings about it since drawing a tutor sure does suck compared to drawing an actual answer, but I benefit much more game 2 after siding in an answer to whatever I'm playing against (faster access to Null Chamber, Spiritual Focus, City of Solitude). Anyone have any thoughts on Tutor vs. no Tutor?

[Atwa]

My current list is the following:

6 Forest
4 Savannah
3 Windsweapth Heath
2 Plains
2 Serra's Sanctum
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Taiga
1 Mountain

4 Argothian Enchantress
3 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Enchantress' Presence
4 Elephant Grass
4 Exploration
4 Wind Growth
4 Sterling Grove
3 Solitary Confinement
2 Seal of Cleansing
2 Words of War
2 Mirri's Guile
1 Sylvan Library
1 Karmic Justice
1 Words of Wilding
1 Holistic Wisdom

I know I run a lot of mana acceleration (Wild Growth, Exploration, ESG), but I simply want an enchantress effect in play on turn 2. 1 Library seems silly, but I hate the fact it doens't work onder Solitary Confinement and Guile costs me 1 mana less. It can be tutored for if needed.

I also swear by Holistic Wisdom. Even though the card costs a lot, it has saved my ass more than once. Wisdom can be tutored for if needed and it cantrips most of the time, making it easier to use, because most of the time you need it, you'll have the cards in your hand for it. Wisdom's also able to return destroyed Sanctums (a trick I sometime use involves playing the second Sanctum, only to be able to return it to my hand, giving me a huge manaboost).

CoP: Green is an idea worth testing, altough I already play a Worship in my SB.

Note that I have totaly abandoned the use of Sacred Mesa (there is a copy in the sideboard though), since I hate to spend 2 mana for a 1/1 creature. You can't use it for quick defense, since you'll have to pay an upkeepcost to keep it in play. Basicly the card costs me 5 mana without getting any benefit of it, which I think is way to expensive.

4 Solitary Confinements is way to much, specially if you also play 4 Sterling Groves (you should!), too often you'll draw the card when everything is fine except a Confinement.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I disagree with the assertion that Wild Growth makes goblins a harder match-up. There was an argument to be made when Port was being run, but Port is a pretty rare sight these days; Burrows seems much more common.

And looking at Wild Growth by a match-up basis is flawed; its a proactive card, not a reactive one. There aren't many specific decks and cards that directly impact the strength of Wild Growth in Enchantress. The main failing of the card is against control, where it's often fluff. On the other hand, it can accelerate you and let you try to take advantage of the early game.

And to address the original thought, I think Utopia Spawl should definitely replace Wild Growth.
Well I think you'll find at the next large tourney that 4x Ports is still a noobs best friend. Also my beef with Grove is not so much as it makes matchups worse (which it does) but that it doesn't REALLY make many matchups that much better. You could run them and it's certainly been done before I just don't think it's as strong as running 4x spells that actually do something and it will undoubtably bring you down a notch against Pikula which is actually a fairly good matchup with my build (and one that will be common at large tourneys for some time I feel).

I guess I've been out of the loop a while to not know that Goblin Burrows is the new tech. Ehh...I don't get it, but I'm not a gobbo player.

I love Moat, but I feel that Humility gets the job done better and easier. Coupled with Elephant Grass, you stall for eternity against aggro/aggro-control and stop Meddling Mages in whatever deck they're in from hosing you. Bad synergy with Argothian Enchantress be damned; Mystic Enforcer is a worse problem.

How does sticking in a 1 of for Karmic Justice/Ghostly Prison work out? Also, I think Holistic Wisdom has never really worked out for me, and I'd rather run Rofellos's Gift for any sort of recursion. There are cute tricks you can do if Solitary Confinement is going down and you're about to eat it, but in all honesty, tying up 3 mana on a prior turn to cast that probably was a factor in getting into that situation.

I would love to see if it is possible to run +1 Bayou and -1 Plains, cutting Moats and Ghostly Prison for Engineered Plagues (possibly). Utopia Sprawl needs to be in, of course, and the meta would have to be heavy goblins. Against silly Gro decks, I'm going to just say the most obvious thing that occurred to me: run Circle of Protection: Green. Granted, it doesn't stop Meddling mages from plinking you, but let's be honest, what are you worried about most: 4/4 and 6/6 and 3/3 fatties stomping on your face or a couple of 2/2's? It'll buy you time to find the concrete Solitary Confinement, and they'll only have so many disenchant effects. I guess the only downside is MD Pithing Needle in Gro hoses you even more, and they're not likely to side it out in Game 2 if you side in CoP:Green. But hey, that's why we have Seal of Cleansing, eh? If you want to be real cute, you can run Sphere of Duty or...

Protective Sphere:
2W
1, Pay 1 life: Prevent all damage that would be dealt to you this turn by a source of your choice that shares a color with the mana spent on this activation cost. (Colorless mana prevents no damage.)
[Gro's creature colors = Savannah]

Another possibility might be Web of Inertia:
2U
At the beginning of each opponent’s combat phase, that player may remove a card in his or her graveyard from the game. If the player doesn’t, creatures he or she controls can’t attack you this turn.

Or shoot, last possibility I can think of to stop Gro is Worship. Argothian is untargetable, so no StP to save them. But, if they're running Explosives, then that's no good.

By the way, my deck currently has both E. Tutors and Sterling Groves to fetch for Enchantments (like Moby Dick incidentally). I have mixed feelings about it since drawing a tutor sure does suck compared to drawing an actual answer, but I benefit much more game 2 after siding in an answer to whatever I'm playing against (faster access to Null Chamber, Spiritual Focus, City of Solitude). Anyone have any thoughts on Tutor vs. no Tutor?
I feel that Humility is better stuffed in the side in most metas but that's really your call. The lone Ghastly Prison won me so many games it was house, the lone karmic Justice is in there to make sure MD board sweepers don't own you (sure you can Deed my stuff but you will get Obliterated). Cutting Moats for Plague seems really bad. You should beat Goblins like 80% of the time so you don't need to make other random matchups worse and break your mana base.

[dontbiteitholmes]

This deck was put on the shelf due to it's bad matchup against Threshhold and Combo, enter Drop of Honey power Errata...
Drop of Honey
OLD ORACLE
At the beginning of your upkeep, destroy target creature with the least power. It can’t be regenerated. (If two or more creatures are tied for least power, target any one of them.)
When there are no creatures in play, sacrifice Drop of Honey.
NEW ORACLE
At the beginning of your upkeep, destroy the creature with the least power. It can't be regenerated. If two or more creatures are tied for least power, you choose one.
When there are no creatures in play, sacrifice Drop of Honey.

Could Drop of Honey in the sideboard indeed be the key to breaking the Threshhold matchup? Could there be enough sideboard slots to address the terrible matchup that is Solidarity? Discuss...

[ho_master]

No, and only for one reason: Argothian enchantress is 0 power and will always eat it first. Judging from the recent tourney (the D4D), the deck would be better off fixing its solidarity matchup.

[Rastadon]

Why is the Solidarity matchup so bad? Doesn't Confinement + Grove seal games?

[Meister_Kai]

Hey people.

Been lurking around this forum for awhile, reading stuff. Anyway, instead of starting a new thread, I guess I will just post my build of the deck here (hadn't seen this thread in quite sometime). Anyway:


Land:
4 Windswept Heath
4 Savanna
4 Tropical Island
4 Forest
2 Plains
2 Island
2 Serra's Sanctum

Creatures:
4 Argothian Enchantress
2 Cloud of Faeries

Enchantments:
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Exploration
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Sterling Grove
3 Solitary Confinement
3 Sylvan Library
3 Seal of Cleansing
2 Words of Wind
1 Holistic Wisdom

Other:
3 Living Wish
1 Stroke of Genius

Sideboard:
3 City of Solitude
3 Elephant Grass
2 Karmic Justice
2 Gaea's Blessing
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Eternal Witness
1 Cloud of Faeries
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Serra's Sanctum


I'm sure most of the people here know why the cards that are in the deck are in there, so please save me the trouble of writing a paragraph on why Argothian Enchantress is in the deck. Basically what you do is get a lock with WoW ASAP. Once thats established, do what you please, as there is not much an opponent can do with only 1 mana per turn.

I always found the WoW version to be superior, not only because it can lock up the opponents board in one turn with 2 Libraries out (instead of doing 10 damage), but because it can actually race combo (Solidarity/Igg can't win with 1 land).

I was also never a fan of the builds that sport so many one of's, seeing as my opponents would do things such as counter my one-ofs, then procede to play Pithing Needle naming Holistic Wisdom, leaving Living Wish + Eternal Witness tricks as the only way to get stuff back.

Uhh, lets see, 3 Seal of Cleansing, mostly because it hardly ever lacks targets, and about 60%+ of the time it reads "1W, Enchantment, Draw 3+ cards".

Elephant Grass is in the SB, seeing as you basically beat aggro once you get a confinement (you basically have 7 confinements game 1, then you have 10 games 2&3).


Personally I have never had much of a problem with Solidarity. Most people that play the deck seemingly don't know how to play around 2 Blessing, and the ones that do can't ever get past the hate games 2+3 (Confinements, Sterlings, CoS's, Blessings), even though it looks like they should be able to on paper. Seriously, the number of times they can actually get enough mana to stroke you AFTER they try winning another way is really really low, dispite what the paper/statistics say.

However, this deck's (at least my decks) horrible problem matchup goes to Deadguy. It basically just rapes it hardcore. While its not huge in my meta (one person plays it basically, too much aggro), I really hate having to play against it in tournys. If this becomes too big of a problem, mabey we should try Spreading Algae in the SB, as it has worked much better than Compost in my testing.

Anyway, thats my .02 cents, any comments/help would be awesome. Oh ya, anyone try Counterbalance yet? Seems like it would work well with Sterling Grove/Library etc.

[ho_master]

If you put the elephant grasses in the sideboard, you're not only ruining your matchup against goblins, but basic aggro has a shot at you. It may seem like confinement is more than enough, but it really isn't. Goblins will chew you up before you can go turn 2 grove, turn 3 unsupported confinement. Even if you do have an enchantress effect, it's not going to stop you from getting pounded.

The cloud of Faeries is cute, but unnecessary, as is the stroke. You're better off using sacred mesa as the kill (or even decree of justice), because once you put down WoW, you're more often than not going to make him pick up everything that turn, which is essentially a "win" as people will scoop and not bother to suffer the rest of the game. The mesa is also still on theme of enchantment, so it's fetchable as opposed to stroke.

If you play against decent solidarity people, then blessings really don't help you. It'll take time for you to play a confinement AND a grove AND an enchantress, so they have all the time in the world. Plus, death by stroke isn't all that unreasonable when you have twincast in the main or the side, or they have a basic concept of how to put triggers on the stack.

For deadguy, you'd probably be better off using karmic justice, sacred ground, and spiritual focus. Those, and elephant grass are more than sufficient to halt deadguy in their tracks.

One thing about Words of Wind is that I think in tournaments, if you can prove that you can set up a lock on your opponent, and he has no answer for that, then you can just go to the next game and you be declared the winner. You'd have to bargain hard with the other person to prove to them that they have no one mana solution to stopping your soft lock, but it's probable.

[Meister_Kai]

If you put the elephant grasses in the sideboard, you're not only ruining your matchup against goblins, but basic aggro has a shot at you. It may seem like confinement is more than enough, but it really isn't. Goblins will chew you up before you can go turn 2 grove, turn 3 unsupported confinement. Even if you do have an enchantress effect, it's not going to stop you from getting pounded.

Very few aggro decks to my knowledge (goblins, scrubs etc) have an answer to Confinement-Living Wish-Squee game one. Game two brings in Elephant Grass and seals the deal.


The cloud of Faeries is cute, but unnecessary, as is the stroke. You're better off using sacred mesa as the kill (or even decree of justice), because once you put down WoW, you're more often than not going to make him pick up everything that turn, which is essentially a "win" as people will scoop and not bother to suffer the rest of the game. The mesa is also still on theme of enchantment, so it's fetchable as opposed to stroke.

The Faeries is for the infinite mana combo, but you probably already knew that. Also, they have saved me in games where I need more mana off of a Utopia Sprawl'ed land, or Serra's Sanctum. I don't know about changing the win condition, as casting Stroke on myself for about 5-7 as saved me games against discard and control. I was actually trying to find room to fit another one in. Also, if given the choice between Mesa and Decree, I would use decree.


If you play against decent solidarity people, then blessings really don't help you. It'll take time for you to play a confinement AND a grove AND an enchantress, so they have all the time in the world. Plus, death by stroke isn't all that unreasonable when you have twincast in the main or the side, or they have a basic concept of how to put triggers on the stack.

Its really hard for them to win when you go turn 1 land, Utopia Sprawl/Exploration, turn 2 land Library, turn 3 land Words. Try as they might, but Solidarity just can't win on one land worth a hell. With the rising of Deadguy, I see Solidarity being played less and less, seeing as Deadguy rapes combo. The fact that no one in my area plays it right is also sort of relevent, but we are talking tournament stuff so your aurgument is valid.


For deadguy, you'd probably be better off using karmic justice, sacred ground, and spiritual focus. Those, and elephant grass are more than sufficient to halt deadguy in their tracks.

I have been really liking Spreading Algae so far, but Spiritual Focus is something thats always been nice. However, Seeing Algae can quickly cause them to have no land, I have seen it as the right choice. Have you tested it yourself?


One thing about Words of Wind is that I think in tournaments, if you can prove that you can set up a lock on your opponent, and he has no answer for that, then you can just go to the next game and you be declared the winner. You'd have to bargain hard with the other person to prove to them that they have no one mana solution to stopping your soft lock, but it's probable.

The only people that usually don't scoop immedatly are people running MD Disenchant and some sort of mox, but the thing is is that I usually just play a Grove or something as soon as one turns up. And if I can't, I have lots of ways of getting on back.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Why is the Solidarity matchup so bad? Doesn't Confinement + Grove seal games?
2x Grove + Confinement is game but you have to be able to sustain the Confinement. Not like 2x Grove + Confinement isn't hard enough to get on it's own.

[nightshade81]

I was looking online fore enchantress variants and saw the Donate Enchantress (not very good) and the 4 Force of Wills intrigued me. I have been a fan of enchantress for a long time but have been severely frustrated when playing against control (which is sadly heavily played in my format {such a bad deck} - I have wreaked with sligh and Zoo but you can only play those for so long without getting bored) because they counter you 1 or 2 win conditions and then cast Disk/Vengeance. I know I could have just added in main deck control hate but you must understand I have a serious fetish for Force of Will and wanted to see if this could work. Plus Force in never dead unlike specific aggro/control hate.

So I have decided that I wanted to create an anti-control version of enchantress. This is what I came up with.


// land
3 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Serra's Sanctum
4 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
3 Forest
1 Islands
1 Plains
// 1cc
3 Elephant Grass
4 Brainstorm
4 Exploration
// 2cc
2 Brain Freeze
1 Seal of Cleansing
3 Sterling Grove
4 Argothian Enchantress
// 3cc
1 Karmic Justice
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Words of Wilding
3 Words of Wind
3 Solitary Confinement
1 Sacred Mesa
4 Enchantress's Presence
// 5cc
4 Force of Will

The deck's main finish is with Words of Wind + Brain Freeze. The extra Words of Winds (more then 2) are in the deck because I really wand one to resolve and they are commonly countered. Also they up the Blue count for Force of Will, actually the count is still really low (13). It's low enough not to consistently counter something in the first 2 turns but is high enough to protect the combo consistently when drawn. Wilding + Brainstorm have a mini combo which is nice once in a while and can turn a loosing game around.

The deck has a positive control match-up but not severely so (like I wanted).

This deck also has a positive Solidarity match-up at least I think. In they few games I played with it I forced him to go off on the my 5th turn w/ Words of Wind and then I Brain Freezed him in response to Meditate with 12 spells have been played that turn. Most of the other games were similar but I never forced him to go off unless I had a Confinement in play or Brain Freeze in hand.

I was just wondering what people would think of this version. I don't think Brain Freeze is necessary though after initial testing but does offer some interesting stuff to happen and is the only real reason the Solidarity match is improved significantly. Though if Brain Freeze is cut I don't think this deck could continue to support Force unless it added more blue spells.

Tell me your thoughts

[MattH]

You could always run with Seal of Removal.

[Atwa]

Could anyone please tell me what the bennfit is of running blue in Enchantress?

I like and play the deck a lot, but I've always played the WRG verion of the deck. Why add blue to the mix? In my experiance Words of War is the best killcondition the deck has, sometimes dealing over 30 damage a turn.

[Lego]

I like and play the deck a lot, but I've always played the WRG verion of the deck. Why add blue to the mix? In my experiance Words of War is the best killcondition the deck has, sometimes dealing over 30 damage a turn.

The blue version adds a few more options, and basically changes the win condition from Words of War to Words of Wind. It lets you go infinite with Cloud of Faeries and Words of Wind, which can be nice, but other than that I don't think it's any better than the regular Words of War kill. The older decklists that played that kill were just fine, the problem is that two of the hardest matchups are Threshold and Solidarity. Doesn't bode well for the current metagame...

EDIT: Maybe with the new Teferi, the blue splash could give you some game against Solidarity and/or Thresh. Worth testing...

[nightshade81]

Has anyone tested with Parallax Tide? If you can resolve this turn 3 against Solidarity the game is over. Plus I'm my crazy version two MD Parallax Tides and 1 MD Parallax Wave might warrant Stifle MD, just a thought.

At a Teferi card what one are you referring to? Teferi's Realm? Because that card would hoes Solidarity but I don't see how you could win with it in play.

[Atwa]

He was refering to the new to release teferi card (look it up on mtg.com, mtgsalvation.com, our community forums, anyplace devoted to magic updated the last week).

I never really saw the bennefits of a blue splah, maybe I'll try it.

[dontbiteitholmes]

He was refering to the new to release teferi card (look it up on mtg.com, mtgsalvation.com, our community forums, anyplace devoted to magic updated the last week).

I never really saw the bennefits of a blue splah, maybe I'll try it.

Tefari doesn't require a blue splash so much as a blue overhaul. I mean UUU go figure. At any rate I see the power in a blue splash especially in the sideboard (In The Eye Of Chaos OMG) but I think people who add the blue splash seem to go overzelous into it by saying hey Cloud of Faeries + WoW = FTW, when in reality you don't need Faeries as Exploration + Serra's Sanctum does the same thing in effect while not sucking while you lack WoW not to mention having zero targets for opposing Swords is good instead of having it break your combo. Sigh, maybe I need to take another shot at Enchantress with blue I just don't like the idea of eliminating the card that wins the turn after it comes into play 90% of the time but maybe it's worth it to fix the sideboard.

[Lego]

I was just thinking that it might be worth it to have a shot versus Thresh/Solidarity. I agree that Cloud of Faeries probably doesn't belong there, although it's always something to be considered. I basically gave up the deck when Threshold gained a strong hold in the meta, and now that Solidarity is gaining a footing as well, the deck seems like it needs some sort of major overhaul to be competitive. *Shrug* Maybe some of these blue cards could do that...

[nightshade81]

I don't think Tefari is worth it; City of Solitude does the same job at a lower cc and hey it's also an enchantment – um enchantments are good right? The only advantage of Tefari is being able to cast it at instant speed. City draws you cards (most likely), is untargetable (maybe), and searchable (definitely). Even though I have been advocating the blue splash I don't think Tefari is the way to go.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

I've been playtesting a 4c version lately with Living Wish. Utopia Sprawl makes splashing rather a low commitment affair; I'm running 1 Taiga and 1 Tropical island. Right now I'm trying Words of Wind and War MD and Meddling Mage as a wish target, but there have been other possible wish targets.

This is the list I'm running

4x Presence
3x Argothian

4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Exploration
4x Elephant Grass
4x Living Wish
3x Ground Seal
3x Sterling Grove
3x Solitary Confinement
1x Moat
1x Seal of Cleansing
1x Aura of Silence
1x Karmic Justice
1x Words of War
1x Words of Wind

2x Elvish Spirit Guide
1x Serra's Sanctum
3x Savannah
4x Windswepth Heath
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Plains
1x Tropical Island
1x Taiga
6x Forest

Possible SB:

Wish Targets:
Squee, Gobin Nabob
Serra's Sanctum
Argothian Enchantress
Meddling Mage
(random kill condition(something STP-proof(Simic Skyswallower?)))

4x Spreading Algea
4x Chalice of the Void
2x Gaea's Blessing

[Happy Gilmore]

I've been playtesting a 4c version lately with Living Wish. Utopia Sprawl makes splashing rather a low commitment affair; I'm running 1 Taiga and 1 Tropical island. Right now I'm trying Words of Wind and War MD and Meddling Mage as a wish target, but there have been other possible wish targets.

This is the list I'm running

4x Presence
3x Argothian

4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Exploration
4x Elephant Grass
4x Living Wish
3x Ground Seal
3x Sterling Grove
3x Solitary Confinement
1x Moat
1x Seal of Cleansing
1x Aura of Silence
1x Karmic Justice
1x Words of War
1x Words of Wind

2x Elvish Spirit Guide
1x Serra's Sanctum
3x Savannah
4x Windswepth Heath
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Plains
1x Tropical Island
1x Taiga
6x Forest

Possible SB:

Wish Targets:
Squee, Gobin Nabob
Serra's Sanctum
Argothian Enchantress
Meddling Mage
(random kill condition(something STP-proof(Simic Skyswallower?)))

4x Spreading Algea
4x Chalice of the Void
2x Gaea's Blessing


hmm, I hate to say it, but if you are running Words of Wind in the main.... maybe 1x Cloud of Faeries in the board? Atleast with Living Wish you can choose not to get it.

[nightshade81]

I like the version that SpatulaOfTheAges posted and I really like the suggestion from Happy Gilmore to go infinite if needed. Which gave me the idea of a living wish side board maybe? Things like Eternal Witness & Viridian Zealot. Just a thought. I gives us utility but then again do we really need it?

Anyways I had another random thought but has anyone considered Obliterate against Solidarity and Gro? To Solidarity it saw go off now or loose and probable should have one peace of hate in play when casting it. To Gro it sets them pretty far back since they have like 4 land (fetchable) left in there deck. I was wondering can they still daze Obliterate just for the alternate cc? If so it might not be as good, though they still loose their creatures. I know I am a bad player for suggesting it but I was wondering if any one else had considered it.

[MattH]

Is ESG really worth it? Do you ever need a Grey Ogre compared to say Lotus Petal or Chrome Mox?

I suppose there's Chalices in the board, but still.

[Shadow]

Is ESG really worth it? Do you ever need a Grey Ogre compared to say Lotus Petal or Chrome Mox?

I suppose there's Chalices in the board, but still.

The option is always nice.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Is ESG really worth it? Do you ever need a Grey Ogre compared to say Lotus Petal or Chrome Mox?

I suppose there's Chalices in the board, but still.

a)Chalice
b)In a low mana source hand, ESG doesn't get Duressed
c)Instant speed means it's better against Daze.
d)Chump-blocker.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Why did the mods move Enchantress out of Open, but leave FEB, ATS, Weld-Sur, and NDW?

Is this a sick joke?

Necro'd for a reason:

Zack got 2nd at a 50+ tournement with a control-heavy build of Solitaire! W00t!

Hopefully he'll post his decklist; I know he was running without Ground Seals, and with more threats, which was a good call in a control and aggro-control heavy enviroment. He was running Guile over Library, and a MD Moat, Prison, City of Solitude, and Holistic Wisdom.

He also beat Solidarity 2-0. Thoughts?

[Atwa]

Why did the mods move Enchantress out of Open, but leave FEB, ATS, Weld-Sur, and NDW?

Is this a sick joke?

This is because I've asked Nightmare if he could bring those decks back from the archives. You can't say ATS, Weld-Sur and FEB are new decks, can you?


Necro'd for a reason:

Zack got 2nd at a 50+ tournement with a control-heavy build of Solitaire! W00t!

Hopefully he'll post his decklist; I know he was running without Ground Seals, and with more threats, which was a good call in a control and aggro-control heavy enviroment. He was running Guile over Library, and a MD Moat, Prison, City of Solitude, and Holistic Wisdom.

He also beat Solidarity 2-0. Thoughts?

That's nice. I quit playing Enchantress because of the rise of Solidarity. MD Moat, Prison (although they shouldn't be nessesairy with 4x Elephant Grass), City and Holistic Wisdom are all choises I can understand. However I refuse to replace Library with Guile. Library rocks too much when playing any of the Words as wincondition.

I'd like to see his list, since discussing a deck is hard when not having all the data.

[Whit3 Ghost]

Mana Base(20):
Serra’s Sanctum x2
Plateau x1
Plains x2
Forest x3
Windswept Heath x4
Savannah x4
Taiga x4

1 Mana Cantrips/Acceleration(10):
Utopia Sprawl x4
Exploration x4
Mirri’s Guile x2

Draw(8):
Argothian Enchantress x4
Enchantress’ Presence x4

Utility(8):
Sterling Grove x4
Aura of Silence x1
Seal of Cleansing x1
Holistic Wisdom x1
City of Solitude x1

Lock(11):
Ghostly Prison x1
Elephant Grass x2
Moat x2
Solitary Confinement x4
Squee, Goblin Nabob x2

Win (3):
Words of War x1
Sacred Mesa x1
Form of the Dragon x1

Sideboard(35):
Elephant Grass x2
Sacred Ground x1
Karmic Justice x2
Choke x3
Null Chamber x1
Rule of Law x3
Seal of Cleansing x2
City of Solitude x1

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5114

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

This is because I've asked Nightmare if he could bring those decks back from the archives. You can't say ATS, Weld-Sur and FEB are new decks, can you?

True, but I wouldn't call Enchantress "new" or "developmental" either.


That's nice. I quit playing Enchantress because of the rise of Solidarity. MD Moat, Prison (although they shouldn't be nessesairy with 4x Elephant Grass), City and Holistic Wisdom are all choises I can understand. However I refuse to replace Library with Guile. Library rocks too much when playing any of the Words as wincondition.

I kind of agree. Library is much better in the match-ups where either is good; combo/control. Being able to grab extra cards can help support a Confinement more than being able to dig during your upkeep. I've been pondering a 2/1 split of Library/Guile though, since both can be useful, but Guile is dead in multiples, where Library can pumps Words.

I also think his mana base is kind of questionable. 5 non-green sources and only 3 basic forests is rather risky. We talked about that a little at GAGG; when you're on the play and you want to drop land + Sprawl/Growth, you really want that land to be a basic forest, because Wasteland has the chance to 2 for 1 you.

Form of the Dragon is cool as hell, but the problem is that it's only useful as an alternate kill condition for when you don't have your engine set up, and that's likely only to come up vs control, which usually has flyers or some kind of reach.

[Nightmare]

Didn't realize it was here. Moved.

[Zach Tartell]

Ok, here are my thoughts. And mind you, they're worthless. I'm a new magic player familiar with like maybe a third of the top two tiered decks, and I just made a good meta call and rocked the shit out of it. My list is posted above, so I'll detail particular card choices. (On a side note, how do you expect new players to realize that Solitary = enchantress)

1st and foremost:
-A million red sources. I know, I know, non-basic hate is terrible to be up against. I played goblins twice, and only ran into two wastelands in 4 games. The Duck Hunt (UB landstill) had one, but I sealed his crucibles before he could do anything with it both times, both games. The only reason I ran so much (I was planning 1 taiga 1 plateau and then utopia sprawls for red) was form of the dragon. I wanted an un-needle-able win condition. And let me tell you, ain't nobody gonna name "Form of the Dragon" on a meddling mage.

-That kind of explains the FOTD. It got boarded out against goblins in both games that I was able to board it out - I don't care if I dont' see white in your deck, I am NOT gonna cross my finners and hope that I can sit at five life before you chuck goblins at me/fanatic me to death. Siege-gang commander is better than everyone thought he is. Fo' sho. And even against non-red decks I was resitant to drop it without confinement and at least one grove on teh table. Five life sucks.

-No library: Well, I'll be really honest. I could only get a white boardered one trading with the scrubs I play with at my student union. I really hate cards with the little tiny writing under the artist's name. This (combined with the fact that the kid who got me into magic had two guiles) made me run guile. I don't feel bad dropping guile turn one if I have like a one land hand, on account of how likely I am to hit another land. Maybe if I knew more math I'd fret a bit more, and I usually don't keep one-lander's unless the rest is nuts, or if I know I have pleanty of time to build up control (against like the angel stompy game 2, and Nat's survial in round five game one). Library also gets pwnt with confinement out, which was my game plan alot. Nobody maindecks enchantment hate, 'scept for TES players who carbon-copy WastedLife with the one tranquility in the board to b. wish for.

-Squee: He's tits with a confinement against, say, red death. or angel stompy. or anything with out mainboard bounce/enchantment removial.

-No wishes: I tested with them. It certainly took away the headache of sanctum-as-my-only-land hands. But it made it tough to hit an enchantress effect (I put one in the board to wish for). And it's a dead card in that I can't draw off of it. I dont' see a reason to run Living Wish, and won't, until somebody can give some hard evidence that it's worth it.

-Only two e-grass: I already have alot of hate for Goblins: Moat x2, ghostly prison, confinements (play it as fog let it die during my turn). I odn't need to run four. And, to my understanding, e-grass was just a 1cc cantrip instead of a lock against dumb re-animator and gobbos. Two in the board is pretty nice.

-Mainboarded city of solitude: Blue sucks to play against. I learned to play competitively on a UGRB thresh, so I've seen the way it wrecks shit you can't deal with. Lots of counterspells go monstor dead if this hits the table. Or you can use it to bait a counter then drop moat or something. I think it's worth it. Or, at least, you can side it out against goblins.

-Double moat: Dudes, I tallied like seventy bananas on these puppies, and I wanted to rock 'em. I saw a couple lists that ran only one, and I think it makes your goblins matchup the suck without two. Unless your name is bennet toms, and you can snipe 'em before I drop them on turn 3 FTW

-Holistic Wisdom: I never ran this testing on MWS, and I think that I got used to not having it. But letting an elephant grass die, then pull it back (or flack back a countered city or EP) is pretty tech.

-Choke in the board: I'm not sure if anyone's gonna point out that this kind of sucks against solidarity, but I have to say it's huge. Against UGW or UGR or U-anything thresh, it's a bomb. Game two against Scott's Landstill the only two lands he had untapped were two mishra's factories. Badass.

-Null CHamber in the board: Ok, I konw that a smart opponent can pwn you with this guy. But against TES, you need to stop them wishing for answers. Burning wish is hot. Or on city of brass, maybe. I think it's cool that it's "any non-basic land card." And if he does name a card you need, be patient, get out a seal and houlsitic wisdom, waste the chamber, play your bomb, then pull it back and play it again.

-No Ground Seal: I picked two up at the dollar box, but I'm not sure why we'd play it. I sure as hell don't see a need. If phyrexian furnace is played agasint me,

I was a little inspired by Gearhart's red for mage removial. I have switched my deck around a little (dropping the dangerous but oh-so-cool FOTD) and it is as follows: (gimme a second - I need to grab my backpack)

Mana, why not? (20):
Savannah x4
Taiga x2
Plateau x1
Serra's Sanctum x2
Windsweapt Heath x4
Forest x5
Plains x2

Utility(8):
Sterling Grove x4
Seal of Primordium x1
Aura of Silence x1
City of Solitude x1
Holistic Wisdom x1
Karmic Justice x1

Lock(10):
Ghostly Prison x1
Elephant Grass x2
Moat x2
Solitary Confinement x4
Squee, Goblin Nabob x1

Win(3):
Words of War x1
Sacred Mesa x2

Draw(8):
Argothian Enchantress x4
Enchantress' Presence x4

Mana Acceleration and such (10):
Mirri's Guile x2
Exploration x4
Utopia Sprawl x4

New Hottness(1):
Seal of Fire x1 (don't whine, hold your breath for like thirty seconds and read the rest I have to say)

Sideboard(35):
E-Grass x2
Sacred Ground x1
Spreading Algae x1
Choke x3
Null Chamber x1
Rule of Law x3
City of Solitude x1
Seal of Primordium x1
Seal of Fire x2
Unglued Pegasus Token x20

Reason for Seal of Fire:
Eats Magi, lackeys. I know that STP might do it better, but there isn't a seal of STP. Shock is the best I could ask for. I can cantrip off of it, I can drop it turn 1 after land + exploration + red source. I don't like letting that lackey connect turn 2. That's why I lost so hard to Bennett: I chump blocked with an enchantress turn two game two in order to put off the turn 2 siege-gang commander. From what I hear that's tough to come back from. It gets boarded out against combo (even though it counts as a shock when it gets played), and against a bunch of stuff. Helps so much agianst agro decks.

Possible other stuff:
-More Spreading Algae in the board
-Dropping a Choke, maybe, for other stuff. One is all you need, afterall, and Sterling Grove can tutor for it.
-A Trop and an Eye in the Chaos maybe.
-Dovescape! Dovescape pwns everything in the format but goblins. And Thresh, maybe. I haven't tested it, but I don't own one.

Throughts?

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

(On a side note, how do you expect new players to realize that Solitary = enchantress)

That's a good point. Could a mod clarify the thread title?

Form of the Dragon -


And even against non-red decks I was resitant to drop it without confinement and at least one grove on teh table. Five life sucks.

That's what I'm getting at. I actually played that guy when he came out, but he's really win more. Needle isn't really a reasonable fear; you're running 2 different disenchant effects, so unless they have 5 Needles, Mesa + Words + Seal + Aura should be enough. On top of City of Solitude and Holistic Wisdom, I'm doubtful you even need another kill condition.

Library vs Guile; I think I could go either way on this. Library is better vs control and sometimes vs combo, and can combo with Words if need be, and Guile can mana fix and work around Confinement. I'm going to try a split and see how it goes.

Wish - I'm testing the Wish build now, I'll let you know how it goes. I'm up in the air; the ability to get Squee without running him situationally dead MD, and to get Sanctum at will without risking it in your opening hand, plus being strong against control, may outweigh it not being an enchantment. But it may not.

Elephant Grass & Moat - Moat is really more for random aggro-control decks. It's not as good against Goblins because 4 mana and double white can be slow vs 4 Ports, and 4 Wastes. Elephant Grass cost 1 mana, and it's green; this is important not only because it can be dropped earlier, but that extra 3 mana is huge when you're either digging for an answer you need right away, or you're tutoring for it. I really think 3-4 Grass and 1 Moat is stronger than 2&2.

Wisdom and City seem good right now; getting back Enchantress, Auras, and Sanctums is pretty hot, as is MD Solidarity hate.

Choke can be good against Solidarity if it's preceeded by a City of Solitude. That's a hot play.

Null Chamber - Also remember that if you expect a deck to SB in one card that wrecks you, this can cover your ass. IE, Armageddon vs WW or AS, or Pernicious Deed.

Ground Seal's cantrip ability is the main motive for playing it. When you're stuck on only one Enchantress effect, Ground Seal accelerates you rapidly into a second, and gives you a better chance of stabilizing an early Confinement. The ability to randomly trump decks is less than it was when Dragon was in the format.


Mana, why not? (20):
Savannah x4
Taiga x2
Plateau x1
Serra's Sanctum x2
Windsweapt Heath x4
Forest x5
Plains x2

I still don't see the need for all the non-green sources. Plateau at least seems to add very little.


Utility(8):
Sterling Grove x4
Seal of Primordium x1
Aura of Silence x1
City of Solitude x1
Holistic Wisdom x1
Karmic Justice x1

I think you may find yourself drawing into Grove too often. They're hard to cast, and relying too heavily on the tutor plan can backfire in terms of card advantage and tempo. It's 3 mana and -1 CA to grab an enchantment without an Enchantress, and with one you're usually better of relying on your draw engine than tutoring.

Seal of Fire - The Hatfields liked it. I'm kind of iffy. I guess it slows down some aggro and kills Mage/Confidant/Hyppie. I'm not sure on relying on a tertiary color for your creature control.


Possible other stuff:
-More Spreading Algae in the board
-Dropping a Choke, maybe, for other stuff. One is all you need, afterall, and Sterling Grove can tutor for it.
-A Trop and an Eye in the Chaos maybe.
-Dovescape! Dovescape pwns everything in the format but goblins. And Thresh, maybe. I haven't tested it, but I don't own one.

Throughts?

How is Rule of Law working? It seems to kind of thwart your strategy too.

[Lego]

I just read a double post twice. Didn't even notice that it was a double post until the very end when I read the Plateau thing again. I agree with taking that out, BTW.

A friend of mine has had much success with Genju of the Cedars.

[Zach Tartell]

I def. read through the second one about half way too, before looking back at the first one.


How is Rule of Law working? It seems to kind of thwart your strategy too.

It's pretty good. I mean, I can shock you for two or four or six for ten or five or three turns. After I have the lock, all I have to worry about is gearhart pulling two tundras out of his ass and burning wishing for akroma's vengance.


I just read a double post twice. Didn't even notice that it was a double post until the very end when I read the Plateau thing again. I agree with taking that out, BTW.

A friend of mine has had much success with Genju of the Cedars.

As for the genju, I haven't tried him, and I don't think he's so great. Moat kind of makes him pointless (though the blue one would be nice, if I could put up with the fourth color[not gonna happen]), and I don't see so much of a reason to cut the second one. I'll fetch in for basic plains if I have to, but moat makes the cut for me. It ravages random-aggro.dec, and deals with every single tier one creature ('scept maybe enforcer or fledgling dragon), and has no upkeep. Granted, it costs more (both in aquiring it and casting it), but it's worth it.

Haha. All that just to talk down on Genju. I mean, he could be good turn two, I guess. Like Land Exploration utopia sprawl; land genju on the un-sprawled land. But that's hard to come by. And it can just be port-ed in the only deck that it's mad necessary to pull it out on.

[Lego]

('scept maybe enforcer or fledgling dragon)

And Exalted Angel.

I'm thinking Cait probably relies too much on Genju, but I gather that it's been winning him a lot of games. I wasn't advocating for it, just mentioning it.

[Jak]

Well Congrats on the performance man. I was always eager to pick this deck up and now I know I will. I can not affod Moats right now, so I tried to make up for it with another Elephant Grass, Ghostly Prison, and Decree. It may be bad, but I just wanted another win condition and from playing Rabid Wombat it is great to make surprise blockers. Thoughts? Also is only one Squee good? I haven't tested, but when this deck wants to get the Confinement Lock, you really need him. Do you guys reliably get him? Well here is the list I plan to put together.

Lands
2 Serra's Sanctum
4 Savannah
3 Taiga
4 Windswepth Heath
2 Plains
5 Forest

Draw/Manipulation
4 Presence
4 Argothian
2 Mirri's Guile

Win
1 Decree of Justice
1 Words of War
2 Sacred Mesa

Mana Accel
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Exploration

Control
3 Elephant Grass
4 Solitary Confinement
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob

Utility
3 Sterling Grove
1 Aura of Silence
1 Karmic Justice
1 City of Solitude
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Holistsic Wisdom

SB
1 Elephant Grass
2 Seal of Fire
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Spreading Algae
1 Sacred Ground
1 Null Chamber
3 Choke
4 Rule of Law
1 City of Solitude

I plan to start testing ASAP. I took a lot from your build lonelybaritone because I think it is really strong. Any suggestions?

[Zach Tartell]

Drop two utopia sprawls - you're mainboarding six. Drop a side-boarded ROL (three is pleanty - you can tutor for it and all kinds of nasty tricks). With the three main-boarded E-grass, you can drop to one or none ghostly prisons. Ground Seal, maybe? In case you run for Squee/confinement and some nub drops a withered wretch on yo' ass. As Spatula mentioned, they double cantrip.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

If you're going to play a Genju, white is best. His ability stacks, so each time you activate it, assuming he hits something, it's 2 life.

I've been thinking about the poor man's Moat that's sometimes better; Parallax Wave. It doesn't stick around forever. But it does take down Enforcers and Mages, as well as Confidant, Rofellos, Glowrider, or other utility creatures. Or maybe run both? But that's awfully expensive. Anyway, a thought.

[Zach Tartell]

That's quite a thought. Maybe one and one? I wish there was only an enchantment that did something in addition to adding fading tokens. If wishes were horses, we'd all be eating steak. It'd certainly eat piledrivers for dinner, let meddeling magi not matter, and slide out various fliers. I think I'll run a 1/1 spilt. 'Course, this dropping one moat makes me positive I'm not dropping any of my groves.

Seems to me that the only times that these genjus are good is when there aren't creatures to block 'em. And the only time that we have time to waste time activating a forest to swing in FTW would be against an aggro deck (when we aren't going balls-out for the confinement lock). Doesn't seem too amazing.

[Lego]

I've been thinking about the poor man's Moat that's sometimes better; Parallax Wave. It doesn't stick around forever. But it does take down Enforcers and Mages, as well as Confidant, Rofellos, Glowrider, or other utility creatures. Or maybe run both? But that's awfully expensive. Anyway, a thought.

I used to board this against those utility creatures. It's pretty good with Holistic Wisdom.

[Jak]

Those 2 Sprawls were supposed to be Mirri's Guiles. So I fixed the list. Does it look alright?

[Zach Tartell]

I don't like runing Decree of Jusitce. I'd drop that in place of . . . something else. Why don't you drop all red stuff and go for Words of Worship + Test of endurance. It'd help your goblins matchup tremendously, on account of getting five life for each draw can get pretty nuts, then drop test FTW. And you don't have to worry about three colors as much. Maybe main board like three STP. Aydunno.

[Jak]

Well I don't really need to worry about red. I am not sure if you are talking about mana screw/wasteland or budget, but I have Taigas and Wooded Foothills, so budget is not the problem with red. I just want the power of the basic Enchantress. Decree was there for a fast, uncounterable win condition. It has not been bad yet. It helps a ton versus threshold. I just like words of war, so I really don't want to cut it.

[dreamscape]

Hi all!

Exciting to see a lot of new ideas about this archetype being bandied about! I'm not an avid Legacy player, and new to The Source, but in preperation for an upcoming local tournament, I have come up with this decklist:

Manabase (24)
4 Windswept Heath
4 Brushland
2 Serra's Sanctum
2 Temple Garden
1 Savannah
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
8 Forest
2 Plains

Draw/Manipulation (12)
3 Mirri's Guile
1 Sylvan Library
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence

Win (3)
1 Words of Wilding (pretty terrible...)
2 Sacred Mesa

Accel (4)
4 Exploration

Control (9)
4 Elephant Grass
1 Island Sanctuary
3 Solitary Confinement
1 Moat

Utility (8)
4 Sterling Grove
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Aura of Silence
1 Elfhame Sanctuary
1 Holistic Wisdom


Sideboard (15) *a lot of one ofs....
3 City of Solitude
2 Multani's Presence
2 Karmic Justice
1 Choke
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Parallax Wave
1 Aura of Silence
1 Aegis Of Honor (Burn is big here...)
1 Rule of Law (Combo is not...)
1 Sacred Ground
1 Ground Seal

The deck is largely based on work done by Spatula and a few others in this forum, but I'd like to share with you a few possibly card choices and get your collective opinion on possible sideboarding options. Unfortunately, there are a few restrictions in card choices: I am unable to ascertain G/R fetches or duals, and have only a lone Savannah. Having to replace Words of War with Wilding is regretable, but unfortunately its a necessity, as is the unfortunate compromise of 4 Brushland. As for the predicted metagame, I expect there to be mainly aggro and control, with little or no combo to speak of. Most likely some mixture of Goblins, Affinity, and Threshold with some Landstill, Burn and Truffle Shuffle thrown in.

Elfhame Sanctuary: Initial testing has proven it a worthwhile inclusion given its synergy with Solitary Confinement/Island Sanctuary, Mirri's Guile (for the shuffle effect), and as anti-wasteland/mana-screw tech. However, it doesn't accomplish too much on its own...

Island Sanctuary: In an aggro-heavy meta, Sanctuary is sometimes just as good as Confinement, whilst costing one less. It has its cons however, as it doesn't actually start working until your next turn.

Mikokoro, Center of the Sea: Super synergy with Solitary Confinement!


I have a few questions regarding optimal decklists when facing aggro, namely the inclusions of maindeck Ghostly Prisons/Parallax Wave. I find Prison to be a tad slow, but I haven't tested Wave main. It certainly would be nice against Meddling Mage...but against most aggro you need that confinement lock as fast as possibly. Are they potent enough against aggro to warrant their inclusion? Any other advice for possible sideboarding options?

I'm also intrigued by the lists which run only 20 land and are accellerating with exploration/utopia sprawl. Perhaps I shall test something more along the lines of 22 land, 4 exploration, 2 sprawl/wild growth. I'm just surprised that the deck can consistently find enough land, running so few.

Thanks!

[Zach Tartell]

Manabase (24)
4 Windswept Heath
4 Brushland
2 Serra's Sanctum
2 Temple Garden
1 Savannah
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
8 Forest
2 Plains

Draw/Manipulation (12)
3 Mirri's Guile
1 Sylvan Library
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence

Win (3)
1 Words of Wilding (pretty terrible...)
2 Sacred Mesa

Accel (4)
4 Exploration

Control (9)
4 Elephant Grass
1 Island Sanctuary
3 Solitary Confinement
1 Moat

Utility (8)
4 Sterling Grove
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Aura of Silence
1 Elfhame Sanctuary
1 Holistic Wisdom

As for the predicted metagame, I expect there to be mainly aggro and control, with little or no combo to speak of. Most likely some mixture of Goblins, Affinity, and Threshold with some Landstill, Burn and Truffle Shuffle thrown in.

I have a few questions regarding optimal decklists when facing aggro, namely the inclusions of maindeck Ghostly Prisons/Parallax Wave. I find Prison to be a tad slow, but I haven't tested Wave main. It certainly would be nice against Meddling Mage...but against most aggro you need that confinement lock as fast as possibly. Are they potent enough against aggro to warrant their inclusion? Any other advice for possible sideboarding options?

I'm also intrigued by the lists which run only 20 land and are accellerating with exploration/utopia sprawl. Perhaps I shall test something more along the lines of 22 land, 4 exploration, 2 sprawl/wild growth. I'm just surprised that the deck can consistently find enough land, running so few.



DUde, you need utopia sprawls. And it's possible to run on just twenty (I'm testing an 18 land build right now that isn't ending too well for me). THe ideal start is land + exploration + land + utopia sprawl. That's a potential of 5 mana turn two (but if it is, that means you kept at least a three land hand, or had sanctum in yoru hand). That means insane plays from the start. Turn two or (more likely) three moat, getting two or three enchantress effects out before turn 5, putting lock pieces down against goblins. . . Sprawl is amazing.

Which leads me to your brushlands. Drop them. If you have taigas, run them with out the GR fetch - I do, and that ended pretty well. Red isn't necessary, but it might help alot. Words of Wilding + moat = bad for you too. And relying only on Sacred Mesa is a bad play.

Also, when you speak of only a smattering of combo and goblins, where do you live, and can I move in with you? For real dude, those are the deck's biggest fears. That might justify running 4 main-decked elephant grass, but I'm not sure about that. Ghostly prison is pretty sweet against random-aggro.dec. It's online as early as turn two, and is a pretty good answer to goblins.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

I've toyed with Island Sanctuary, but the problem is that it stops neither SGC, nor Disciple of the Vault, nor Mystic Enforcer. Really it gives too many outs for me to want to give up my draw step.

Utopia Sprawl/Wild Growth are really essential to the deck; setting up a turn 2 Presence, or Argothian + whatever, is pretty big in tempo, as is cantripping for free in the mid-game and quickly building up Sanctum.

As for Elfhame Sanctuary, it looks interesting. Let us know how it goes.

Wave is ok against aggro; it's better against aggro-control, generally.

[Jak]

I have been hearing of an Enchantress deck with the ProsBloom combo. Even if it is an older list I would love to see it. Thanks.

[Lego]

I have been hearing of an Enchantress deck with the ProsBloom combo. Even if it is an older list I would love to see it. Thanks.

There's another thread for it, but I think it may have been archived. It was called "Argothian Agony" if I remember correctly. It wasn't even close to this list though. This is a bit like a control-prison deck, where ProsBloom Enchantress is pretty much simply balls-to-the-walls combo.

So baritone, any thoughts on the deck after another couple of strong showings? Are you going to keep both Moat, or is one becoming a Parallax Wave? How about foily foreign Sterling Groves... I mean, do you recommend them? :wink:

Did you win more often with Words of War or Sacred Mesa? (and yes, I'm guessing you just "won" more with Confinement :smile:) Do you really need two Mesa?

[Zach Tartell]

I placed between 5th and 8th day one with a slightly different list, being second only to anwar playing BR combo (Red death), then scrubbing out against Wastedlife's TES in top eight. Day 2 I placed third or fourth after loseing to Watcher's triple duce (actual name?). I'll post a thorough deck list and both day tourney report later on monday or tuesday.

And, I think it should be said, that Foil Italian Sterling Groves did win it for me.

[Soto]

Since the deck runs a few Serra's Sanctum, couldn't you also run Decree of Justice as a win condition. It seems pretty good in the late game.

[Anarky87]

Since the deck runs a few Serra's Sanctum, couldn't you also run Decree of Justice as a win condition. It seems pretty good in the late game.

Sacred Mesa is essentially the same thing, except better, because it's reusable every turn and the tokens fly...And they're friggin pegasuses for God's sake, and that just pushes the card over the top.

[noobslayer]

@k u j a: He's running moat. It's good to have a win condition that doesn't force him to remove one of his greatest stall pieces. Also, it's got the added bonus of being an enchantment.