How viable are the burn/discard decks now?

[zulander]

With the ability to play up to 8 Lavamancers now (DRS), how viable are the traditional burn/discard decks? I was thinking of something like this:

Mana: 19
8 b/r fetches
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Badlands
2 Dragonskull Summit
2 Lavaclaw Reaches

Creatures: 21
4 Grim lavamancer
4 Deathrithe Shaman
4 Vexing Devil
4 Geralf's Messenger
2 Anathemancer
2 Tombstalker
1 Olivia Volderan

Disruption: 20
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Forked Bolt/Chain Lightning/Other Removal
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn
4 Blightning

Obviously this is a very raw list that could use some fine-tuning, but the main point is to play early shockers like DRS/Lavamancer, along with hand disruption. Usually decks like this lose gas towards the late game which is where cards like Geralf's Messenger, Tombtalker, and Olivia shine.

Any thoughts on if this would be viable?

Other options I've thought of including were Phyrexian Obliterator, Exava, Liliana of the Veil, and some other large beaters.

[imnotbrown]

The deck seriously needs some draw. Your average casting cost is 2.3, which would hurt a lot with Bob. If your strategy is all in enough, blood scrivener could maybe be used. Or maybe phyrexian arena, though it hasnt been popular lately.
You don't need the summits, because there is a chance they would be plaeyd first turn tapped. I'd swap them out for more basic swamps. You need to be able to hit 3 black for messenger, and summits are just not good enough. I'd add a bayou or two so that more value can be attained from shaman, particularly if you use said draw.

[Poron]

these decks today are non competitive.
they can't get out of a Counterbalance or a Leyline of Sancity / Moat / whatever.

Cards that are so common.. next season for aggro (perhaps)

[imnotbrown]

these decks today are non competitive.
they can't get out of a Counterbalance or a Leyline of Sancity / Moat / whatever.

That too

[ahg113]

these decks today are non competitive.
they can't get out of a Counterbalance or a Leyline of Sancity / Moat / whatever.

Cards that are so common.. next season for aggro (perhaps)

Counterbalance -> Vexing Shusher, REB/Pyroblast
Leyline -> gotta swing with beat and control the field. DRS doesn't target
Moat -> gotta swing with flyers, Vexing Devil is a dead card
Humility -> that card makes you sad

There's answers to most things. Get creative.

[zulander]

these decks today are non competitive.
they can't get out of a Counterbalance or a Leyline of Sancity / Moat / whatever.

Cards that are so common.. next season for aggro (perhaps)

Who plays counterbalance in a field where Jund/Miracles/Esper/RUG exists?

[KazinMtg]

Who plays counterbalance in a field where Jund/Miracles/Esper/RUG exists?

I tend to run into quite a few miracles decks that play counterbalance.

[aluisiocsantos]

I like it, though I think you are almost forced to run Fireblast i nany deck where you mean to burn something down.

[zulander]

hmm interesting. I can't remember the last time I played against CB, mainly because the meta is so diverse where I play.

It's really not hard to play against control decks, you just board in 4x sulfuric vortex.

[TsumiBand]

I've wondered a lot about this too. B/R has never quite come together as viable in Legacy, especially recently with all the good Jund stuff that requires Forests to cast it's harder to make an argument for, but I wouldn't mind trying.

This color combination has a metric ass-ton of 2/2s for 1. Truly, there's not the reliability of Nacatl, but there's Goblin Guide, Vampire Lacerator, Rakdos Cackler, other stuff maybe not worth considering like Diregraf Ghoul (ETB tapped, boo) and bigger still Vexing Devil is always a possibility though I've not followed up on its effectiveness since it was spoiled.

The prevalence of castable 2/2s for 1 in Black makes me feel like there's something there, some kind of deck willing to Ritual out 6 power on turn 1 and then follow it up with some Burny McDiscard. Also, I might be cracked, but in Standard I played just such a deck for a minute (obviously minus any Legacy tech) and Dreadbore was always much much stronger than people seem to give it credit for. For all burn's flexibility, obviously there are times when burn spells and attacking are suboptimal methods of removal. Sending a burn spell and a Goblin Guide after Jace is 5 damage that should have gone to the opponent's face; Dreadbore answers x/4s and all kinds of lame-ass walkers with a considerably lower risk of card disadvantage than multiple burn spells, and doesn't punch you in the tempo for attacking a walker when it shoulda been a player. I virtually never didn't want to see it in my opening hand, and it nearly always caught the opponent off-guard. I only rocked 2x of it, but goddamn it was strong.

[zulander]

I've wondered a lot about this too. B/R has never quite come together as viable in Legacy, especially recently with all the good Jund stuff that requires Forests to cast it's harder to make an argument for, but I wouldn't mind trying.

This color combination has a metric ass-ton of 2/2s for 1. Truly, there's not the reliability of Nacatl, but there's Goblin Guide, Vampire Lacerator, Rakdos Cackler, other stuff maybe not worth considering like Diregraf Ghoul (ETB tapped, boo) and bigger still Vexing Devil is always a possibility though I've not followed up on its effectiveness since it was spoiled.

The prevalence of castable 2/2s for 1 in Black makes me feel like there's something there, some kind of deck willing to Ritual out 6 power on turn 1 and then follow it up with some Burny McDiscard. Also, I might be cracked, but in Standard I played just such a deck for a minute (obviously minus any Legacy tech) and Dreadbore was always much much stronger than people seem to give it credit for. For all burn's flexibility, obviously there are times when burn spells and attacking are suboptimal methods of removal. Sending a burn spell and a Goblin Guide after Jace is 5 damage that should have gone to the opponent's face; Dreadbore answers x/4s and all kinds of lame-ass walkers with a considerably lower risk of card disadvantage than multiple burn spells, and doesn't punch you in the tempo for attacking a walker when it shoulda been a player. I virtually never didn't want to see it in my opening hand, and it nearly always caught the opponent off-guard. I only rocked 2x of it, but goddamn it was strong.

I was never a fan of the zoo like approach to b/r simply because zoo does it much better.

[KazinMtg]

How about something like this:


4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Dark Confidant
3 Deathrite Shaman

4 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Fireblast

2 Sulfuric Vortex

4 Badlands
1 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
3 Mountain



It's basically a burn/discard that's a little more traditional with the card choices. I still don't love it honestly, but I think it's a step in the right direction. Deathrite doesn't feel right in this deck frankly, and if it were me, I'd probably take them out for some more burn and the other 1-2 vortex's, and a couple flame rifts. Why not, you'll kill them really quickly anyways.

[TsumiBand]

I was never a fan of the zoo like approach to b/r simply because zoo does it much better.

I don't think it has to be a Zoo clone, but I think being able to have a fast, non-trivial board presence is worthwhile whereas traditional Sligh or Burn just falls behind and then you start wasting resources by controlling the board. (eww i was just saying this very thing in the m14 spoiler thread)

The ability to play discard means that it's never a truly Zoo-esque strategy anyway; when it comes to a proactive answer, Thoughtseize beats the piss out of things like Qasali Pridemage, for example. Plus that same Thoughtseize means you aren't obligated to 2-for-1 yourself whenever a creature with a 4 in the corner hits play.

[Madmankevinx]

Aside from Chaos Warp in your sideboard, Leyline of Sanctity is often just game over for a burn/discard deck.

[dontbiteitholmes]

If your deck leans heavily on burn you should be running Price of Progress IMO.

It's probably the best burn spell in the format.

[ahg113]

Aside from Chaos Warp in your sideboard, Leyline of Sanctity is often just game over for a burn/discard deck.

While the discard part is more true than not, Leyline of Sanctity is most likely going to be creature light, so swinging in the red zone will still be valid. DRS doesn't target either, Lavamancers are used to kill opposing blockers, hopefully.

Agree that Price of Progress is an excellent burn spell, usually netting at least 4 dmg for 2 cmc, and potentially much better.

What kind of sb do you intend to run? It could help fill some hypothetical gaps with the hate most likely to be seen.