SCD- Notion Thief

[menace13]

Ban it, my love of Brainstorms and Jace can't handle this. Have you seen the blowouts on SCG?

[Grand Superior]

I saw both of them and man, the first one was savage. Basically got a 6 for 1 and turned the entire game around for Nolan. The second one was more of a nail in the coffin, but it was hilarious how Uppal cascaded into a Brainstorm and got Notion Thief'd.

As for discussion on Notion Thief, I'm still unconvinced that it's a good card to have because the blowouts, as awesome as they were, don't seem like things which could happen often without the stars aligning for you. Still, I'm trying a one-of in my Esper Stoneblade sideboard just for fun and I'm not taking it out until I get someone's Jace with it.

[menace13]

Yeah it is a savage beating. I dont know how good the card is at 4mana, although 2/1 for 3cc would have been much better for Legacy, it is still a major brainstorm/jace/visions hoser. Also random value vs hi tide and Omni.

If there is a SCD for Notion Thief sorry. I checked last 2 pages of threads and 1st page of google. Was convinced it did not exist after extensive search.

[Julian23]

At BoM I totally blew out my opponent be flashing in Notion Thief against his eot Brainstorm. Best part? He untapped and cast Ponder.

Notion Thief is one of the very best cards to have in the Shardless BUG Mirror Matches. Abrupt Decay cant remove it and people tend to side out Forces. Flash is pretty good protection from Jace and Liliana anyways. Still, I'd only want it as a 1off.

[Zombie]

Still feels so silly to have a blue hoser in blue. But I guess that's life.

[jamis]

I think the card's going to get bigger as people realize how good it can be, but then fade away once people learn how easy it is to play around it. If your opponent passes the turn with four lands untapped and cards in hand, its probably not a good idea to cast that brainstorm. Learning how to hold onto your brainstorms is something a lot of people have been needing to learn for a while.

[twndomn]

http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/405522193

at 12:27:30

[thecrav]

http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/405522193

at 12:27:30

Osyp: "That is the single greatest thing that has ever happened"

[jamis]

Osyp: "That is the single greatest thing that has ever happened"
Gotta push them sales

[Barook]

13:05:20

The look on Justin's face in G2 was even better when he cascaded into a BS while having Vision with one counter left, just to meet another Notion Thief.

It didn't really matter anymore with the board state in that situation, but damn, he looked really pissed off.

[TsumiBand]

It works today, but it probably won't work tomorrow. There cannot be that many cromulent spells that tap for 2UB, that an opponent with a Jace is going to just go "sure why not, brainstorm". Funnier than hell, though.

It has nothing to do with anything, but I love the "RTFC" trope that's been established regarding cards that wreck people. They HAVE to pick it up and read it - I do it, you do it, everyone just does it. It's like when a guitar player forgets the chords of a song and so they go back over the same lyric over and over trying new chords and they all suck. "(C)Puff the Magic (Em)Dragon (F)lived by the (C)sea... and (Dm)frolicked, wait...... (Bb)frolicked, nope......(G7)frolahhh. (Am9)FROL... (Ebmaj7#11)FROL... God dammit."

[Fossil4182]

Notion Thief is what I wish Chains of Mephistopheles could be - personal rank aside.

I don't think this is the second coming of Red Elemental Blast, but its definitely something. I really like this card because it seems to combat Brainstorm, Jace, and the Vision decks that are in the top tier right now. More over, its an interactive card, rewards smart tactical play, punishes sloppy play, and will lead to some great stories :-) At four mana, its certainty cast-able on turn three, but as a 3-4 play, it should impact match-ups without dominating them.

What I don't like about this card is appears borderline oppressive. Its really difficult to break out of from under this card if you don't have an immediate way to remove it. Though I supposed this notion splits both ways as it really does punish decks that rely on cantrips, Jace, and Visions. Given how power the draw effect of those cards are, an effect that counters it would have to be exceptionally powerful in its own right.

I don't know if this will push a lot of the blue decks out of the top tier. I could see the blue decks cannibalizing themselves by engaging in a sort of "break the mirror" arms race which would open up space for something else to emerge. At best Notion Thief could certainly curtail the use of blue card draw and change the metagame at the top. At worst, it means people will be much more cautious about how and when they play those cards. I think the reality will be closer to the latter, but it will be fun (and hilarious) to watch.

[dontbiteitholmes]

What I don't like about this card is appears borderline oppressive. Its really difficult to break out of from under this card if you don't have an immediate way to remove it. Though I supposed this notion splits both ways as it really does punish decks that rely on cantrips, Jace, and Visions. Given how power the draw effect of those cards are, an effect that counters it would have to be exceptionally powerful in its own right.


LOL WUT?

Oppressive? A 4 drop with an ass of 1 that does basically nothing against non-blue decks and can be killed by literally any removal spell that isn't Abrupt Decay?

That's like someone playing Enchantress and complaining that Reverent Silence is "oppressive" because it doesn't allow them to carelessly throw out 10 enchantments a turn and lock down the board.

[Mr. Safety]

I think the card's going to get bigger as people realize how good it can be, but then fade away once people learn how easy it is to play around it. If your opponent passes the turn with four lands untapped and cards in hand, its probably not a good idea to cast that brainstorm. Learning how to hold onto your brainstorms is something a lot of people have been needing to learn for a while.

Now just imagine a deck that will almost ALWAYS play draw-go and leave lands untapped. Do you play around Notion Thief or do you try to simply play your game? Just curious because making Brainstorm a dead card is pretty amazing. When your opponent has dead cards to shuffle away and they can't even rely on Brainstorm then Thief is pretty good at creating virtual card advantage. I hear Brainstorm is a fairly common card to face, too. You can't always hold onto your Brainstorms, it just isn't feasible. Sometimes its your only play, albeit typically a damn good one. Learning how to play Brainstorm is now MORE difficult if Thief becomes a thing. Now it isn't just a matter of timing Brainstorm correctly but also making sure your opponent doesn't have 4 spare mana to rip a Thief.

I predict Notion Thief will find it's home and stick around. It won't be tier 1 (I don't think) but it's in Legacy to stay, at least on the fringes. Lots of 4 mana cards come and go in popularity (see: Natural Order, Elspeth Knight-Errant, etc.) Just because it isn't as omnipresent as Jace doesn't mean it isn't going to be a card that sees Legacy play for the foreseeable future.

[Dark Ritual]

LOL WUT?

Oppressive? A 4 drop with an ass of 1 that does basically nothing against non-blue decks and can be killed by literally any removal spell that isn't Abrupt Decay?

That's like someone playing Enchantress and complaining that Reverent Silence is "oppressive" because it doesn't allow them to carelessly throw out 10 enchantments a turn and lock down the board.

Agreed. It's like saying gaddock teeg is oppressive against storm combo, however teeg does actual nothing against aggro decks.

Notion thief is a fuse card that must be fused. It reads as follows:

1U: Draw 3 Cards 1B: Target player puts two cards on top of their library. It isn't really surprising that hymn + ancestral recall on one card makes it legacy playable despite it being 4 mana.

I just want to notion thief someone so badly now. Feel bad for Uppal, that was gnarly. Draw all the cards.

[jamis]

Now just imagine a deck that will almost ALWAYS play draw-go and leave lands untapped. Do you play around Notion Thief or do you try to simply play your game? Just curious because making Brainstorm a dead card is pretty amazing. When your opponent has dead cards to shuffle away and they can't even rely on Brainstorm then Thief is pretty good at creating virtual card advantage. I hear Brainstorm is a fairly common card to face, too. You can't always hold onto your Brainstorms, it just isn't feasible. Sometimes its your only play, albeit typically a damn good one. Learning how to play Brainstorm is now MORE difficult if Thief becomes a thing. Now it isn't just a matter of timing Brainstorm correctly but also making sure your opponent doesn't have 4 spare mana to rip a Thief.

I predict Notion Thief will find it's home and stick around. It won't be tier 1 (I don't think) but it's in Legacy to stay, at least on the fringes. Lots of 4 mana cards come and go in popularity (see: Natural Order, Elspeth Knight-Errant, etc.) Just because it isn't as omnipresent as Jace doesn't mean it isn't going to be a card that sees Legacy play for the foreseeable future.

Yeah, I agree. It'll be a card you have to watch out for, but it won't be the card you have to watch out for. When your oppoent has you dead, and you need to cast brainstorm to dig for an out, of course you still cast it; if they have Notion Theif, they have Notion Theif. But some people will be ahead on board, and cast Brainstorm just because they have it, Notion Theif punishes that. And that's kind of a negative I see against it, its either win more or it punishes bad plays.

[Fossil4182]

LOL WUT?

Oppressive? A 4 drop with an ass of 1 that does basically nothing against non-blue decks and can be killed by literally any removal spell that isn't Abrupt Decay?

That's like someone playing Enchantress and complaining that Reverent Silence is "oppressive" because it doesn't allow them to carelessly throw out 10 enchantments a turn and lock down the board.

Hmmm... Youre 100% correct. Guess that's why I called it borderline oppressive instead of oppressive. Thanks for accurately quoting me :)

Ya, Notion Thief does "[die] by literally any removal spell that's not Abrupt Decay" but I think that's over simplifying the discussion. Most decks don't run a critical mass of removal spells (only 4-7) because they can reliable cantrip into their answers and Snapcaster Mage lets them cheat on the spell count. Resolving Notion Theif with Brainstorm on the stack or in response to a Jace activation creates a five card swing. Besides stealing three draws, forcing them to put two on top of their deck is what pushes this card from cute / cool to blowout levels. That's why removal isn't a guarantee because in most instances, they may be putting it back on top of their library or the player with Notion Theif would of drawn into protection. That's why it's borderline or "situationally oppressive" - its not always good, but when top 16s are littered with Brainstorm.dec (like last week where 14/16 we running Brainstorm), then a card like Notion Theif will lead to some blowouts. All I'm claiming is that when its blowout good, it's almost impossible to recover which combine with the frequency of Brainstorm and Jace, can make it borderline and situationally oppressive. Which, BTW, fine and probably healthy for Legacy.

[bruizar]

It's not a 5 card swing. It's a 5 card swing + 2 time walks.

[PirateKing]

It's not a 5 card swing. It's a 5 card swing + 2 time walks.

Unless the intention was to BS and fetch like a good player.

Then it's still just a 5 card shift.

[bruizar]

Then it's a 5 card swing + 1 damage :D


In all seriousness, I do expect Notion Thief to be a card in UB Planeswalkers if the room can be found for yet another 4 drop. That deck has the potential to drop it turn 2, although I doubt that that deck wants to keep 4 mana up.

[catmint]

Some people played a random Venser so I guess some people will play a random notion thief.

Helping vs all blue control/midrange mirrors as well as helping against show-grisel and show/omni - dream-halls into enter the infinite will surely make him earn his spot as a 1-2of in some decks depending on the meta and how the deck is built.

It is a card but not archetype defining or format staple.

[Finn]

It primarily hoses Jace and brainstorm, yes?

Why aren't you just playing Jace and brainstorm?

Narrow blue solutions to ubiquitous blue spells are useless.

[bruizar]

Narrow blue solutions to ubiquitous blue spells are useless.

Blue is the most ubiquitous top tier colour and blue ubiquitous spells therefore make the blue solutions not so narrow.

[alderon666]

This should have been a hatebear. Imagine playing it on turn 2 and then countering their removal. Now they can't even cast Brainstorm to dig for another removal spell... TROLOLOL

[bruizar]

This should have been a hatebear. Imagine playing it on turn 2 and then countering their removal. Now they can't even cast Brainstorm to dig for another removal spell... TROLOLOL

Sounds like meddling mage on brainstorm

[PirateKing]

I still think this should have been a red hatebear that doesn't steal draws, just denied them.
It's bothersome that the best way to ruin blue is to play blue back at them.

[menace13]

It primarily hoses Jace and brainstorm, yes?

Why aren't you just playing Jace and brainstorm?

Narrow blue solutions to ubiquitous blue spells are useless.
It goes into the same decks that play them. It is one sided. It has keyword awesome.

I don't know how much of a solution it is, but it works.

Your opponent lands Jace then Bstorms, you get to steal 3 cards, make him redraw dead for 2 draws, and 3 power kills the Jace.

What it does to cantrips is also not so narrow, really. Most games get down to a player cantripping- saved or top decked- mid-late game into answers to a threat in play or to set up their own threats. This not only has the chance to walk someone into its steal your draws ability, it preemptively denies use of any further drawn cantrips. It complicates Enter the Infinite, Time Spiral, Standstill- stretching here, but can break your own!11. And Griselbrand, they will not be drawing 7, at anytime. Ok, mebbe 1 on your turn if desperate.

[Barook]

I still think this should have been a red hatebear that doesn't steal draws, just denied them.
It's bothersome that the best way to ruin blue is to play blue back at them.
Chains is a black ability, not red.

I still hope we get a 2/1 flash version without the draw steal for :1::b: one day.

[Rizso]

Tbh Notion Thief is quite reasonable in the matchups where its actaully good. The mana cost isnt so punishing in thoes. Also it shares human with dark confidant incase you would play acavern of souls.

[PirateKing]

Chains is a black ability, not red.

No, Chains is a black card. Further, Chains of Mephistopheles does a whole lot more then just denying draws to players. Plus it is from fucking Legends. Do you really want to argue on the color identity of 1994 Magic?

A red hatebear that denies all players additional draws is perfectly flavorful, since red is dumb and blue is smart, so the smartest thing red can do is force blue to play on their level. One draw a turn, just like God intended.

[TsumiBand]

No, Chains is a black card. Further, Chains of Mephistopheles does a whole lot more then just denying draws to players. Plus it is from fucking Legends. Do you really want to argue on the color identity of 1994 Magic?

A red hatebear that denies all players additional draws is perfectly flavorful, since red is dumb and blue is smart, so the smartest thing red can do is force blue to play on their level. One draw a turn, just like God intended.

Well I think it's more "Red is impulse and Blue is intellect", but that's picayune.

I seem to recall saying as much before in the original spoiler for this guy, but the design suffers from the whole "only another ginger" effect that is inherent with messing with card drawing. It's always, "Oh, a card that affects card drawing, eh? Well let's see, that's always Blue, so there's just no way that could ever happen outside of Blue, because it's just a Blue thing to do, after all!" even though the rawest resource in the game is 'cards' so that just fundamentally puts the color in an amazing position from the starting gun.

I initially disagreed with Finn when the comment was made, "why hose Jace when you can just play Jace" but on further reflection I think I have to fall in line with the sentiment. Jace is actually a fantastically recursive example of this mentality warping the game; the most ubiquitous planeswalker in the game, with the most relevant ability/abilities because it says "draw three cards" on it, that thanks to the rules of the game surrounding planeswalkers is also an answer to itself (when I Jace you Jace we sacrifice). Since the potential exists to be far more proactive with a Jace in play than a "Jace answer" in play, it is difficult to argue against the idea that the best answer to an opponent's 4x Jace is your own.

Notion Thief is a hilarious gotcha card, but by virtue of the fact that it has Awesome, it may actually be worse off because if it is a finely-tuned answer to Jace, then it may not be as good as just playing Jace yourself. Had it been outside of Blue, it might be a different story, but that would never happen because "derp, it messes with card drawing and that has to be Blue". Bluhh.

[Mr. Safety]

Yeah, I agree. It'll be a card you have to watch out for, but it won't be the card you have to watch out for. When your oppoent has you dead, and you need to cast brainstorm to dig for an out, of course you still cast it; if they have Notion Theif, they have Notion Theif. But some people will be ahead on board, and cast Brainstorm just because they have it, Notion Theif punishes that. And that's kind of a negative I see against it, its either win more or it punishes bad plays.

I absolutely LOVE punishing bad plays. It's an integral part of the game, honestly. So much happens in a Legacy game, on the surface and much deeper, that it's difficult to always make great plays. The difference is, as the Notion Thief player, you've got a hand grenade waiting for the right moment to toss into the game. You can play the game with a greater focus on capitalizing on your opponents mistakes rather than being the aggressor. This is why draw-go control works so well with Notion Thief. You can leave lands open and have:

1) Counterspells
2) Removal
3) Notion Theif
4) NONE OF THEM but bluff it anyways, because that's how some people will approach the matchup.

I also love virtual card advantage. Any time I can get free value out of including a card in my deck, I like it. It's similar to playing Daze game 1, then siding 3 out game 2. They still play around Daze...even though it isn't even there, really.

I think the more times the community sees Notion Thief in action, the more the community will warm up to him. Me? I don't trust the sticky-handed bastard. That's why I want to be the Thief player, and not my opponent.

[Mr. Safety]

It goes into the same decks that play them. It is one sided. It has keyword awesome.

I don't know how much of a solution it is, but it works.

Your opponent lands Jace then Bstorms, you get to steal 3 cards, make him redraw dead for 2 draws, and 3 power kills the Jace.

What it does to cantrips is also not so narrow, really. Most games get down to a player cantripping- saved or top decked- mid-late game into answers to a threat in play or to set up their own threats. This not only has the chance to walk someone into its steal your draws ability, it preemptively denies use of any further drawn cantrips. It complicates Enter the Infinite, Time Spiral, Standstill- stretching here, but can break your own!11. And Griselbrand, they will not be drawing 7, at anytime. Ok, mebbe 1 on your turn if desperate.

I play Children of Korliss, Griselbrand. You control Notion Thief. I force you to draw 28 cards and mill you out. Like a BAWSS.

[Mr. Safety]

Blue is the most ubiquitous top tier colour and blue ubiquitous spells therefore make the blue solutions not so narrow.

+1

[menace13]

I play Children of Korliss, Griselbrand. You control Notion Thief. I force you to draw 28 cards and mill you out. Like a BAWSS.
That was so cool.

They draw 14, you activate children, opponent stps grisel w child korlis ability still on stack.

[twndomn]

Some people played a random Venser so I guess some people will play a random notion thief.


Do you understand the interaction between Venser and Karakas? If you do, you would not use random to describe what's commonly done in Legacy blue decks.

[catmint]

Do you understand the interaction between Venser and Karakas? If you do, you would not use random to describe what's commonly done in Legacy blue decks.

http://dubsism.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/captain-obvious-to-the-rescue.jpg

Unfortunately by focusing on beeing a douchebag you missed my point which is: Very situational lategame value from a 1of (like Venser) is comparable to a very situational lategame value from a 1of like notion thief. These things are played and viable.

[Higgs]

Making Notion Thief blue looks like a very clever move to me. It has the possibility of creating Notion Thief on Notion Thief action in blue mirrors to get the upper hand, therefore all blue decks losing some of their edge against the rest of the field to battle each other. It reminds me a bit of the the discussion about unrestricting LOA in Vintage. And all this without creating a non-blue in your face blue hate, without polarizing blue and non-blue decks. I like the card.

[Malakai]

Note that the draws with Notion Thief are not optional, so Enter the Infinite is "Suspend 1: Win the game."

Edit: No, I'm wrong. If their library has more cards in it than yours, you're dead. If they have less, which is quite probable considering combo decks proclivity for cantrips, well, hopefully you can kill them in a couple turns.

[TsumiBand]

Note that the draws with Notion Thief are not optional, so Enter the Infinite is "Suspend 1: Win the game."

Edit: No, I'm wrong. If their library has more cards in it than yours, you're dead. If they have less, which is quite probable considering combo decks proclivity for cantrips, well, hopefully you can kill them in a couple turns.

That's pretty funny, actually. The Notion Thief controller draws the cards, then their opponent puts one back and has no maximum hand size. See that Legacy? You've already got maindeck answers to Thief - good ol' Omniscience -> Enter the Infinite.

[Koby]

Note that the draws with Notion Thief are not optional, so Enter the Infinite is "Suspend 1: Win the game."

Edit: No, I'm wrong. If their library has more cards in it than yours, you're dead. If they have less, which is quite probable considering combo decks proclivity for cantrips, well, hopefully you can kill them in a couple turns.

More like:
"Draw cards equal to the cards in your opponent's deck"; which may be instant-kill, or pass-the-turn win, or 2-3 turns to decking; depending on how deep the Notion Thief player is into his deck. Brainstorm + Enter the Infinite is likely instant kill.