Notion Box

[mifme]

Hi all, ive started thinking about Notion Thief, i think this card is pretty interesting for the obvious reasons that in legacy people want to draw cards all the time and brainstorm and JTM are everywhere.
While looking through cards i came across the following 2 card combo :

Notion thief + teferi's puzzle box

Now, if you have the thief in play and a puzzle box then the following will happen in your opponents turn :
1: he draws his card for the turn
2: the puzzle box happens and he puts the cards in his hand on the bottom of his library
3: the puzzle box then says draw that many cards but as you have notion thief in play then you draw them instead leaving you opp with zero cards in their hand.

So to summarise with the thief and the box in play your opponant will never have any cards in their hand for the rest of the game, infact the only thing they can do is cast the card they draw before putting it on the bottom for the puzzle box and then only if its an instant. They cannot play any more lands or anything that isnt an instant.

Now i don't know about you but this seems like a pretty hard lock to get out of especially as the player with the thief and the box in play only has to stop 1 spell every now and then to keep things on the board.

So deck starts to take shape obviously with these :

4 Notion theif
4 Teferi's puzzle box

these are both 4 mana spells so without defining the rest of the deck yet whats the best play against the goldfish we can do ?
well obviously play 4 lands then end of opp's turn make the thief, untap and make the puzzle box then sit back and relax. So thats a turn 4 into turn 5 lock ..... a bit slow. This can bee sped up with some sol lands such as ancient tomb and city of traitors and/or lotus petals/mox diamonds etc.

with sol lands/petals or moxen we can speed this up by a turn to turn 3 to 4 lock. i think maybe as a first try we should add the following :

3 ancient tomb
2 city of traitors
4 mox diamond

so we now have the start of our mana base. Obviously we are at least black/blue but with the diamonds we could push a 3rd colour if we need it.
Seeing as we are t least playing blue for Notion thief we can jam in Force of will and brainstorm, so we add :

4 force of will
4 brainstorm

The decks now looking like this :

4 Notion Thief
4 tefferi's puzzle box
4 force of will
4 brainstorm
4 mox diamond
3 ancient tomb
2 city of traitors

i think the way i'm going with this to start with is a kind of combo/control shell, i believe we have to with both combo parts costing 4 mana ! and as we are playing mox diamonds i think 23 land should be about right. 22-23 land leaves us with 36-37 slots 20 of which have already been taken up as listed above leaving us 16-17 other slots.

if we are going a control/combo shell what are we worried about ? well early creatures could be an issue and discard. My general cards against discard are spell pierce so we should probably add 3-4 of those and against early creatures swords to plowshares is the usuall card of choice which puts us into Esper colours.

3-4 spell pierce
4 swords to plowshares

thats 7-8 slots of our 16-17 filled leaving us with around 9 or 10 slots left.

Esper means we could well play our own discard so we could add 2 inquasition of kosalek and 3 thoughtsieze, thats another 5 slots down

2 inquasition of kosalek
3 thoughtsieze

leaving 4-5 slots. now the lock is great but do we really want our only win to be attacking with Notion Thief ? probably not but seeing as the rest of the deck is basically control to get the lock then as long as we can get to the lock we can take our time on the win (hopefully) so lets add 2 jace the mind sculptor and 2 lilliana of the veil. This is interesting as these two cards on their own are pretty good which means even without the combo we can play the control jace end game and lilliana doubles as removal to add to the 4 swords in the main. Also interestingly when/if we get the lock down playing a lilliana is pretty cool as we should be able to ultimate her after a few turns, remember we are drawing an extra card each turn from our opponent and the puzzle box and they cant play any more permanents so lilliana removes pesky critters and then when ultimate halves there resources which they cant replenish ! As well drawing jace with the lock is pretty sweet as we can then ultimate jace for the win seeing as they will never have any cards in their hand.

2 Jace the mind sculptor
2 lilliana of the veil

are we really just relying on brainstorm and/or jace to find the combo ? well with the few remaining slots we could add ponders which are pretty good or lim dul's vault as a tutor. I'm a fan of Lim Dul's vault so i think i'll try that first.

So without further ado heres a test deck.

Notion Box
Main Deck : 38
4 Notion Thief
4 teferri's puzzle box
4 force of will
3 spell pierce
4 mox diamond
4 brainstorm
4 swords to plowshares
2 inquasition of Kozalek
3 thoughtseize
2 lim Duls Vault
2 Jace the mind sculptor
2 lilliana of the veil

Land: 22
3 ancient tomb
2 city of traitors
4 polluted delta
4 flooded strand
1 island
1 swamp
1 plains
3 underground sea
2 tundra
1 scrubland

SB: so far i havnt given a lot of thought but i think we need to include disenchants, vindicates for things like engineered plagues or problematic things. Surgical extractions/exterpates as grave/combo hate. Maybe flusterstorms for the control matchup the Esper mana base allows for a very diverse sideboard.

Well there it is. Discuss :-)

Rgards

Matt

[theillest]

I don't think adding white to the mana base is worth stp.

[mifme]

ok, maybe adding white isnt the greatest idea but it does give you potential Sideboard options of vindicate or even stoneforge mystic and package ?

if you remove the white, what should we replace the StP with ? i guess some black removal ?

[theillest]

ok, maybe adding white isnt the greatest idea but it does give you potential Sideboard options of vindicate or even stoneforge mystic and package ?

if you remove the white, what should we replace the StP with ? i guess some black removal ?

Are you making a combo deck geared towards speed or are you making a control deck that wins (locks) with a combo finish?

[mifme]

Are you making a combo deck geared towards speed or are you making a control deck that wins (locks) with a combo finish?

Well, i'm open to suggestions/thoughts, my initial decklist i have posted i decided to make a control deck with a lock in it as the combo is fairly expensive 2BU and 4.

[Poron]

the combo is nice and fun, but this is legacy. and Legacy is a 2 card combo for win. This doesn't win anything (anything is still playable instant speed and the combo doesn't deal with anything already in the battlefield).

Legacy has an alt win 2 cards combo like RiP Helm and Painter Stone.

and those have only 1 colored mana all together..

Notion Thief is a wonderful SB, situational card. imo it can't go further than this.

[kingtk3]

...
Notion thief + teferi's puzzle box

Now, if you have the thief in play and a puzzle box then the following will happen in your opponents turn :
1: he draws his card for the turn
2: the puzzle box happens and he puts the cards in his hand on the bottom of his library
3: the puzzle box then says draw that many cards but as you have notion thief in play then you draw them instead leaving you opp with zero cards in their hand.
...
Matt

I don't think it works quite this way.

Teferi's Puzzle Box
Notion thief

I think the correct sequence is the following:
1 opponent puts his hand on the bottom of his deck
2 opponent draws a card while you draw N cards, where N is opponent's former hand minus one
3 you draw one card instead opponent's (for his normal draw of the turn)

In the end opponent will be playing the rest of the game with one card in hand.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Hey, I like the combo idea. To be honest, I realize why you'd wanna' go the explosive mox/ancient tomb approach, but I almost think you should go a more gradual/safe control approach instead. Some cards that came to mind were like...

Deathrite Shaman
Baleful Strix
Repulse
Go for the Throat
Tolaria West/Maze of Ith/Academy Ruins/EE
Reconstruct (reanimate puzzle box/strix?)


Because when you think about it, you'll need to drop 2x 4cmc spells after another, for something that isn't a guaranteed win since you can't always count on their board position. The idea of going for a more gradual can-trip till you get your lock isn't a horrible thing, you might even consider throwing in another tutor for black, not sure which best fit would be.

[MGB]

I'd rather just play it in a Humans or Rogues Cavern list with Vials...

[PirateKing]

Since the draws are in the upkeep

Teferi's Puzzle Box triggers in the draw step, but it does work, since it would go

Draw card for draw step
Teferi's Puzzle Box goes on the stack
Teferi's Puzzle Box resolves, putting the hand on the bottom of the library
Notion Thief triggers, stealing all the draws
Repeat

[mifme]

I don't think it works quite this way.

Teferi's Puzzle Box
Notion thief

I think the correct sequence is the following:
1 opponent puts his hand on the bottom of his deck
2 opponent draws a card while you draw N cards, where N is opponent's former hand minus one
3 you draw one card instead opponent's (for his normal draw of the turn)

In the end opponent will be playing the rest of the game with one card in hand.

The gatherer text says you draw your card for the turn BEFORE the puzzle box effect

http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/details.aspx?name=Teferi's%20Puzzle%20Box

[mifme]

I'd rather just play it in a Humans or Rogues Cavern list with Vials...

Nice idea ! do you have a sample decklist? this is of course another way to go i was trying more of a control then oops i've locked you out the game type deck.

[mifme]

Hey, I like the combo idea. To be honest, I realize why you'd wanna' go the explosive mox/ancient tomb approach, but I almost think you should go a more gradual/safe control approach instead. Some cards that came to mind were like...

Deathrite Shaman
Baleful Strix
Repulse
Go for the Throat
Tolaria West/Maze of Ith/Academy Ruins/EE
Reconstruct (reanimate puzzle box/strix?)


Because when you think about it, you'll need to drop 2x 4cmc spells after another, for something that isn't a guaranteed win since you can't always count on their board position. The idea of going for a more gradual can-trip till you get your lock isn't a horrible thing, you might even consider throwing in another tutor for black, not sure which best fit would be.

yeagh i think i'll try this build after i've played the more explosive route, i think though you might be right as removing the sol lands and the moxen gives you 4-6 more slots for extra control elements or shamans etc ...

[mifme]

another 'cool' interaction is Lim Dul's Vault with puzzlebox, it sets your next puzzlebox draw up pretty good !

[rufus]

I think the concept runs into problems because you can win immediately for less mana, and puzzle box isn't so great on its own.

That said, some cards naturally come up in this context that don't seem to have been mentioned.
Compulsive Research probably does well in decks with Mox Diamond since you're set up to discard lands, and Notion Thief because you can target your opponent with it.
Diminishing Returns might have potential, though the CC is still quite heavy.
Anvil of Bogardan is like a mini puzzle box, although discard very different from putting cards on bottom of library.
Blood Scrivener is cute in combination with puzzle box, and probably pretty good in lots of other fun ways.

[metronome2charisma]

why wouldn't you just jam this into a u/b tezz build with this as an alt win con to tezz..it could still be a played as a 3 or 4 of and makes the tezz deck that much better(in theory) ...and chalice on 1 is really good.

[Kaslan]

Arcane Denial as a counter spell when Notion Thief is on the board looks good

[TsumiBand]

Arcane Denial as a counter spell when Notion Thief is on the board looks good

They've finally done it.

[KazinMtg]

They've finally done it.

I just threw up a little.

[GoboLord]

[...]
Notion thief + teferi's puzzle box
[...]
So to summarise with the thief and the box in play your opponant will never have any cards in their hand for the rest of the game, infact the only thing they can do is cast the card they draw before putting it on the bottom for the puzzle box and then only if its an instant.

Sounds familar...
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/nph/37.jpg

[AncientSion]

Wouldnt Anvil of Bogardan be way better than the Box ?

[mifme]

Wouldnt Anvil of Bogardan be way better than the Box ?

Anvil might actually be better than puzzle box in the situation where you can get them down to a card in hand but puzzle box empties there hand....... I did some testing with the deck yesterday and I agree that anvil does the same as the box when they have 1 card in hand. Hmmmmm I'll have to do some more thinking.

I'll post an updated list soon as I have switched to a more control shell with the lock in it that's working nice :)

[AncientSion]

The reason i think the Anvil would be better is because it comes down earlier. Ideally, you dont to play your draw outlet and then notion thief. With box and thief both at 4, that doesnt work.
Something like t1 draw go, t2 counter or anvil, turn 3 counter or anvil, turn 4 thief seems superior to t4 box t5 thief.

[Water_Wizard]

I tried playing with Anvil and my limited testing showed that you want to drop Anvil after Notion Thief. If you drop Anvil before, your opponent gets the first filtering benefit and grabs counterspell / removal / discard, thus disrupting your plan.

I originally tried to run Notion / Anvil in a Shardless BUG shell, but that didn't work out too great. I think that mana acceleration is necessary and perhaps some card filtering, so I think that Tezz or a deck with DRS and artifact mana sounds great.

I'm going to try Tezz. I think that you want to drop Notion Thief and then drop Anvil or Puzzle Box, so maybe that means that Puzzle Box isn't as bad because you will already be at 4 mana anyway. I like the idea of other cards like Compulsive Research. Chalice of the Void may be very good in this deck to shut down removal (StP, Lightning Bolt) and Abrupt Decay doesn't hit Thief.

[Water_Wizard]

Other cards that may be too cute (but worth consideration):
Wistful Thinking
Sign in Blood
Reckless Scholar
Cephalid Broker
Cephalid Looter
Careful Consideration
Cephalid Coliseum
Jace Beleren
Trade Secrets
Burning Inquiry
Prosperity
Vision Skeins
Urza's Guilt

Out of all of these, Vision Skeins and Jace are the two strongest. W/ a red splash, Barbed Shocker, Shocker, and Reforge the Soul become cute.

[SpeedOfDark]

card tags (with corrected typos):

Spells (38)
4 Notion Thief
4 teferi's puzzle box
4 force of will
3 spell pierce
4 mox diamond
4 brainstorm
4 swords to plowshares
2 inquisition of Kozilek
3 thoughtseize
2 Lim-Dûl's Vault
2 Jace, the mind sculptor
2 liliana of the veil

Lands (22)
3 ancient tomb
2 city of traitors
4 polluted delta
4 flooded strand
1 island
1 swamp
1 plains
3 underground sea
2 tundra
1 scrubland

[Water_Wizard]

My favorite combo is Jace B and Notion Thief. The reason is that both cards are decent on their own, whereas Anvil and Puzzle Box aren't great on their own (Puzzle Box is okay). Jace B also fits the curve nicely. Jace on turn 3, -1, Notion Thief on turn 4, +2, draw 2.

[Mr. Safety]

My favorite combo is Jace B and Notion Thief. The reason is that both cards are decent on their own, whereas Anvil and Puzzle Box aren't great on their own (Puzzle Box is okay). Jace B also fits the curve nicely. Jace on turn 3, -1, Notion Thief on turn 4, +2, draw 2.

Bingo, I'm using this in my development of BUG-colored Notion Thief. I'm also using Mikokoro, Center of the Sea along with Crop Rotation, Loam, Bojuka Bog, and Wasteland. Once I get a list settled I'll be sure to post in here, if anyone is interested.

[Water_Wizard]

Bingo, I'm using this in my development of BUG-colored Notion Thief. I'm also using Mikokoro, Center of the Sea along with Crop Rotation, Loam, Bojuka Bog, and Wasteland. Once I get a list settled I'll be sure to post in here, if anyone is interested.

Yes, please do. Sounds fun.

[AncientSion]

I like the small Jace for the reason i stated earlier. You want to curve out into your notion thief and that works well with Jace. Ideally, you would want a spell with flash that has a synergy w/ notion thief though. Exposing yourself on t3 with a small jace is really awkward because even a small Goyf or flipped Delver will kill the Jace before you can use your Notion Thief.
In addition, there needs to be moooore Synergy in this. There are plenty of cards that are great with Thief, but we want something along the lines of Thief 4-8 to make the whole deck less random.
So, think about what could work as makeshift Notion Thief, or what works well with the cards that Thief wants, i.e. how do we make something good out of the enemy drawing in general or the enemy drawing extra.
The problem is that Thief makes that kind of redundant because once he is in, the enemy doesnt actually draw extra anymore, so any effects that are good without the Thief are likely worthless with thief. Its going to be very tough to find the correct card choices for max utility in either case.

[Water_Wizard]

+1 - you've got it right - relying on a 4-of 3/1 creature is too fragile.

Dimir Cutpurse is a card worth considering.

[FTW]

Has anyone actually tested this? Box into Thief is really awkward.

Step 1: Cast Box
Step 2: Draw step. Box triggers. You must tap out now to cast Thief, otherwise it gets buried on the bottom and you get a bunch of random cards that may or may not include Thief.
Step 3: Your hand gets replaced by Box, with random cards. Could be anything.
Step 4: Opponent kills Thief on your mainphase while you are tapped out. If you were holding back a FoW or Spell Pierce, it's dumped on the bottom of your library. You might have gotten lucky and drawn one from Box, or maybe you didn't. You have no control over this. Thief dies?
Step 5: rip up all copies of Notion Thief. get DQ'd for playing with only 56 cards.

[FTW]

Box Stacks

4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
some UB mana sources
4 Chrome Mox/Mox Diamond?
1 Mox Opal

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Anvil of Bogardan
4 Trinisphere
4 Propaganda
3 Tangle Wire
2 Crucible of Worlds

4 Notion Thief
4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Arcane Denial
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

SB:
Sphere of Resistance/Lodestone Golem
Smokestack
Tormod's Crypt

etc etc

Thoughts on a shell like this?

Chalice @ 1/3sphere helps slow down the game a lot. Propaganda and Tangle Wire give you ways to interact with the enemy board while you set things up. With enough resistors, they hopefully can't do much until you get Notion Thief online. Maybe Puzzle Box should be here, as it certainly helps you dump bad cards and dig into more tools. Anvil functions sort of the same way, but is more incremental instead of explosive like Box. I included Anvil because it curves out more smoothly. Not enough 2cc otherwise, too much 3cc and 4cc.

[Water_Wizard]

Has anyone actually tested this? Box into Thief is really awkward.

Step 1: Cast Box
Step 2: Draw step. Box triggers. You must tap out now to cast Thief, otherwise it gets buried on the bottom and you get a bunch of random cards that may or may not include Thief.
Step 3: Your hand gets replaced by Box, with random cards. Could be anything.
Step 4: Opponent kills Thief on your mainphase while you are tapped out. If you were holding back a FoW or Spell Pierce, it's dumped on the bottom of your library. You might have gotten lucky and drawn one from Box, or maybe you didn't. You have no control over this. Thief dies?
Step 5: rip up all copies of Notion Thief. get DQ'd for playing with only 56 cards.

That's kind of what I'm getting at with post #24 above and what AncientSion mentioned - it's really difficult to base a deck around a 3/1 UB2 creature. It's best to focus on a deck that is good and that Notion Thief is a good element of, not the lynch-pin of a strategy.

I like the deck that you have. You may want to try Esperzoa. It works really well with Tangle Wire and Grim Monolith. Your deck is more of a prison/stax version.

Another deck that may work is more of a mid-range deck with creatures, discard, removal, and counterspells. There is synergy between Notion Thief, Dimir Cutpurse, and Hypnotic Specter.

[kingtk3]

If anyone would use Anvil of Bogardan I recommend Chains of Mephistopheles too: when they are combined each player loose a card per turn until they're left with 0 cards in hand. It hits you too, but it's a much cheaper the Teferi/Thief and if you find a mean to add cards into your hand your deck will still be live.
Another card worth considering is zur's weirding because it ensures your opponent doesn't draw anything problematic until you enstablish a lock.

If only necropotence would still be legal this would be the deck I was playing in 1998...

[mifme]

Ok I've done some testing with the deck against a fair amount of tier 1 decks, bug,Esper etc and I've changed the build a bit. One thing I have noticed is that the nicest play is end of turn notion thief into untap and make puzzle box.

So I've gone -4 mox diamond -1 puzzle box +3 snapcaster +2 counterspell.
I've also removed the sol lands. Now this deck plays more like Esper control with a prison style lock in it. This build seems really solid. With snapcaster and thief as flash creatures making the puzzle box first is not too bad as you can play the relevant spells at instant speed at end of turn or with puzzle box trigger on the stack.

[Kaslan]

Temple Bell anyone ?

[Mr. Safety]

Temple Bell anyone ?

Jace Beleren is strictly better, as it's good with or without Notion Thief. Also, Mikokoro, Center of the Sea is much more efficient than Temple Bell.

I'm considering red for this deck, mostly for Burning Inquiry and Reforge the Soul. Seems fairly devastating. If I go for Reforge, then it becomes a combo enabler really. Drawing 14 cards seems pretty darn nice at creating lethal storm or simply acting as a pseudo-tutor.

[kwis]

I like Anvil over the Box. I had a similar kind of deck based around Chains of Mephistopheles locking out the opponent while I used replacement effects on my draws to gain value.

[Darkenslight]

Jace Beleren is strictly better, as it's good with or without Notion Thief. Also, Mikokoro, Center of the Sea is much more efficient than Temple Bell.

I'm considering red for this deck, mostly for Burning Inquiry and Reforge the Soul. Seems fairly devastating. If I go for Reforge, then it becomes a combo enabler really. Drawing 14 cards seems pretty darn nice at creating lethal storm or simply acting as a pseudo-tutor.

IS Winds of Change on the banned list?

[Water_Wizard]

IS Winds of Change on the banned list?

No.

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/TCG/Resources.aspx?x=judge/resources/sfrlegacy

[Mr. Safety]

So I just Notion Thief-ed someone on Magic Workstation and they argued against the correct ruling. MWS is so bad sometimes. He thought I just drew 1 card and he didn't put any on top. I hope he pulls that in a tournament so he can get raped sideways when a judge tells him the real story.

Anyways, I've been testing (about 10 games) and here is my list for now:

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Notion Thief
3x Tarmogoyf

3x Thoughtseize
4x Brainstorm
3x Liliana of the Veil
2x Jace Beleren
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Force of Will
2x Pernicious Deed
1x Life from the Loam
1x Spell Snare
1x Counterspell
1x Mystical Teachings
1x Crop Rotation
1x Counterspell
1x Dream Fracture

4x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Underground Sea
2x Bayou
1x Tropical Island
1x Creeping Tar Pit
2x Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Island
1x Swamp
1x Forest

Sideboard is rough, but this it for now:

3x Spell Pierce
2x Pithing Needle
4x Surgical Extraction
1x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Golgari Charm
1x Mindbreak Trap
1x Slaughter Pact

So far it feels right. The deck can function just fine without Notion Thief, but when it gets into the mix the card advantage starts rolling in. I know the list looks sketchy because of the 1-ofs, but that's just to see which ones are worth using and which ones can be left out. My guess is that I'll either go the Crop Rotation/Loam route (maybe even use Raven's Crime/Worm Harvest along with it, then work in Intution x2) or go the Mystical Teachings route and use a broader toolbox (stuff like Vendilion Clique, Venser, Doom Blade, etc.) As it stands Mystical Teachings acts as the 4th copy of Force of Will once I assemble 4 mana, and does really great stuff with free spells out of the sideboard (Mindbreak Trap/Slaughter Pact) The way I see it, I might as well go the janky route.

[thefreakaccident]

IS Winds of Change on the banned list?

That's the card to try and combo with notion thief. It's also not bad with other cards meant to deny draws like chains.

[AncientSion]

Clique seems to work really well with Notion Thief. Firstly, both have flash, which is excellent. Secondly, they put present a decent clock with their 3 power. Thirdly, they play well with each other. Only bad thing i can see is the clique is 3 and thief is 4, when ideally you want it the other way around.
Im pretty i would play 3 cliques and 4 thiefs and then try to work more flash action into this. Maybe a faerie subtheme even.
Grixis for Burning Inquire sounds great too. Too bad you cant really play R for wheely effects and then G for Loam/Harvest because that would stretch the mana base too much.
I think for now one should decide wether to go Grixis or UBG. I feel like UBG will be the better choice.

[Mr. Safety]

Clique seems to work really well with Notion Thief. Firstly, both have flash, which is excellent. Secondly, they put present a decent clock with their 3 power. Thirdly, they play well with each other. Only bad thing i can see is the clique is 3 and thief is 4, when ideally you want it the other way around.
Im pretty i would play 3 cliques and 4 thiefs and then try to work more flash action into this. Maybe a faerie subtheme even.
Grixis for Burning Inquire sounds great too. Too bad you cant really play R for wheely effects and then G for Loam/Harvest because that would stretch the mana base too much.
I think for now one should decide wether to go Grixis or UBG. I feel like UBG will be the better choice.

I tend to agree. Sure Winds of Change and Burning Inquiry are cheap and effective, but they curve so LOUSY with Notion Thief. Jace Beleren on the other hand curves out perfectly with Notion Thief.

My goal is to play a hard control game with Deeds, Decays, Thoughtsieze, Forces, and Liliana. I will be using a control engine, either Loam + Crop Rotation or a Mystical Teachings toolbox. Thief is there to provide a late game draw engine. It's basically Next Level Blue with draw denial + discard rather than CounterTop.

[Water_Wizard]

@Mr. Safety - thanks for posting your list. It looks solid for being in testing phase. Arcane Denial? How about artifact mana like Mox Diamond? Obviously, does not play well with Deed, but it helps ramp to 4 mana. Why only 2 Jace B? It seems like 3 would be better. These are just my casual observations, obviously, your testing offers more validity. I think your list, or a variation there-of, is where this deck wants to be.

[Mr. Safety]

I want to squeeze in the 3rd Jace Beleren, but i need to settle on an engine first (Crop Rotation/Loam or Mystical Teachings.) Because i want to play draw-go more than it already does, I'm guessing Mystical Teachings will be my focus.

Read Arcane Denial. The draw is a 'may' clause. Yes it will end up being a Counterspell for 1U, but they won't pull the trigger and let you draw 2 cards. I suppose I could flash in Thief while the effect is on the stack, but that's a full 6 mana to come up with. Not really going to happen.

I'm loving the curve right now, and once the deck gets to the late game, it's doing well (which is how I am designing it.) In order to build around Notion Thief, or any other 4-mana card, you really need to 1) win on the spot OR 2) focus on getting to turn 4+ and making sure you can establish inevitability. That's what big Jace does and I feel that Notion Thief + Jace Beleren is actually BETTER than Jace TMS (yes, I just said that.) You add counters to draw 2 cards a turn while building towards an ultimate for Little Jace, or just Goyf and Thief beats.

Still testing, but I will likely get an updated list posted later this week once I figure out the Teachings toolbox.

[Mr. Safety]

Got a game in against Shardless Bug today...FREAKIN' HILARIOUS! The guy had a suspended Ancestral Visions that I was just waiting to Thief, and the turn before the last time counter came off he played Shardless Agent into an Ancestral Visions. I drew six extra cards in the span of two turns. Man, that felt good...

I have decided on 2x Mystical Teachings and 1x Crop Rotation. Rotation lets me interact with Dredge/Reanimator game 1 by fetching Bojuka Bog and once the game gets to turn 5+ Mystical Teachings is fantastic. It's a functional extra copy of Abrupt Decay, Force of Will, Spell Snare, Counterspell, and Brainstorm. The only thing I need to do is tweak the numbers so I can get a slightly bigger toolbox integrated. I'm debating removal options, and here is my list:

Ghastly Demise
Doom Blade
Go for the Throat
Darkblast
Putrefy


I really want it to be instant for Teachings, and I also really want it to be cheap. Putrefy seems rather 'meh', but Maelstrom Pulse is sorcery speed.

I know a lot of folks are saying that Notion Thief is a 1-of at best, but I think he's rather a 4-of to build around. Once the game goes late it seems like almost nothing can touch it's card advantage. I'm playing turns 5+ with a fistful of 4+ cards minimum, usually closer to 7.

And if you're wondering: yes, Mikokoro really is that good with Notion Thief.

[Water_Wizard]

+1 - I wish that there was a 'like' button for the drawing 6 off of 2 Ancestral Visions

Disfigure? Dismember? Snuff Out? Disfigure is good vs. DRS. Dismember and Snuff Out are mana cheap, but they may cost life. Diabolic Edict may be good in certain situations.

Thanks for the reading on Arcane Denial - the 'may' certainly makes it much worse (I don't think that you could flash in response to their decision - to the trigger, yes, but that would cause them to decide differently).

Mikokoro is awesome - that is not a surprise!

[Mr. Safety]

Burn is a problem folks. I am sideboarding in 3x Chill. It has plenty of value against Jund too, likely another problematic matchup. I will also laugh when I Force a turn 1 Vial from a goblins player and slam a turn 2 Chill.

I don't know how folks think about it, but Mystical Teachings has been BOSS, in a serious way. Playing 2 copies is like playing 4 because of flashback, and it's like playing 5 Force of Will. I don't care about the card disadvantage...by the mid-game I'm drawing so many effing cards it's unreal. I also want to see a Thief in *every* game. Teachings does that in a better way than something like Worldly Tutor I think. The mana isn't an issue...this is a control deck, mana is not an issue at all. It's the repeatability and flexibility that counts.

I'm looking forward to taking this to a local event and smashing face. Still only online testing for now.

[AncientSion]

Another thread played Standstill. I think that is a good choice, in fact a very good choice. Is there a to incorporate a standstill strategy into THIS shell ?

[Mr. Safety]

Standstill is tricky...you need to have Notion Thief on the battlefield FIRST to guarantee that you get the 3 cards. You can play your own Standstill and play it like traditional Landstill, or other draw-go strategies, but if you want to GUARANTEE you get the 3 cards, you have to have Thief active first. Otherwise playing thief will just retrigger Standstill and they will get the cards before you can rob them.

I found it to be too cumbersome on paper, honestly. I wanted to stall until I could bring Thief online as a hoser/hate (against decks where it naturally preys) or combine it with a more consistent draw engine (Jace Beleren/Mikokoro.) BUG seems to be the best shell for that, giving you Force, Spell Snare, Abrupt Decay, Liliana, Thoughtseize, and Pernicious Deed as ways to control the game.

If given the choice between playing Standstill or having mana open for removal/permission/Brainstorm, I'll take the latter. I want to get to the late game where nothing can match the card advantage, and therefore the inevitability.

I think a hard matchup will be Jund honestly; Bloodbraid will keep them in the game long after they should be locked up. My solution so far is Chill, which has value against Jund, Burn, TES, and even RUG Delver.

[Water_Wizard]

Did you consider Kitchen Finks or Obstinate Baloth?

Best way to fight creatures is usually with creatures. Finks kills about everything in Jund except Goyf, but it can block twice. Baloth owns Hymn and Liliana's +1 and is too large for Abrupt Decay and Lightning Bolt.

I see people run Chill, but I don't usually like it. The only deck where I like it is CounterTop with Enlightened Tutor, and even then I think that Warmth or Aegis of Honor is better. I would run Hydroblast or Blue Elemental Blast over Chill, but I would run Finks or Baloth over Blasts vs. Jund, Burn, or RUG. Vs. TES, the blasts are probably better, although questionable (you're really only stopping Burning Wish and Rites of Flame and discard and counterspells are probably better).

[Mr. Safety]

Did you consider Kitchen Finks or Obstinate Baloth?

Best way to fight creatures is usually with creatures. Finks kills about everything in Jund except Goyf, but it can block twice. Baloth owns Hymn and Liliana's +1 and is too large for Abrupt Decay and Lightning Bolt.

I see people run Chill, but I don't usually like it. The only deck where I like it is CounterTop with Enlightened Tutor, and even then I think that Warmth or Aegis of Honor is better. I would run Hydroblast or Blue Elemental Blast over Chill, but I would run Finks or Baloth over Blasts vs. Jund, Burn, or RUG. Vs. TES, the blasts are probably better, although questionable (you're really only stopping Burning Wish and Rites of Flame and discard and counterspells are probably better).

I'm a little scared of the Burn matchup...I faced a couple decks on MWS and they hosed me hard, even post board (before Chill.) Then I sided in Chill and it wasn't even a game. I feel that if I see any burn decks in my local meta, I'll be sure to have Chill handy. Other than that, I was thinking about Finks (we're on the same page there...)

No reason not to splash white either...but an idea for another time, after testing has gone further.

[Mr. Safety]

A few notes from playtesting:

1) I am LOVING Mystical Teachings
2) I tried going down to 3 copies of Thief, it wasn't good. He's better raw-dogged, and his blue nature and flash are good. I'm not usually too worried about playing him as a four mana 'Fog' or pitching him to Force.
3) Add Enchantress as another deck that Notion Thief naturally preys on. The version I was playing used Emrakul as a win-condition, using Bant colors, but I Deed-ed away his Energy Field and Rest in Peace. The only thing I worry about with Enchantress is when they start rolling along with 2-3 enchantress effects they can essentially play a 'mill' deck against Thief. Luckily we draw a crap ton of cards, turning Force of Will on for free easily enough.
4) I want a maindeck Darkblast for Teachings. It's just really good against dorks.
5) Three copies of Jace Beleren is too many, Mikokoro is better as a draw engine. I am down to 2, and it feels right.
6) Most people STILL don't understand that 1) Notion Thief takes *all* extra draws away, no matter whose turn it is and 2) it's a straight swap with the draws, if they would draw 3 the Thief controller instead draws those cards. It isn't a simple replacement effect that gives the Thief controller one draw. *sigh*

I'll post again with further findings. It's a lot of fun developing this deck!!!

[Moondancerbb]

It seems like an interesting idea i see 2 flaws

one they still get a chance to respond to puzzle box trigger and kill notion thief.

Two after you lock you still have to win the game.

Some other interesting cards to maybe consider is using transmute artifact to get the box out or the anvil.

I am not sure the effect but what about using Chains of Mephistopheles with puzzle box and having a graveyard strategy.

[AncientSion]

You would think people would know to read more than the opening post out of 3 whole pages. Wow.

[MGB]

What's your latest list, Mr. Safety?

Also, how is the Omnitell / Sneak & Show matchup?

[Mr. Safety]

Omni-Tell seems like it should be a fairly decent matchup. I have beaten Omni-Tell a bunch with targeted discard into Liliana with Junk, and the plan is the same except I now have Force of Will and a way to hose their cantrips beyond turn 3-4. A resolved Sneak Attack is bad news because this deck cannot beat a hasty Emrakul. Surgical Extraction out of the board is good, but we need to nab the enchantment with discard/Spell Pierce/Force of Will first.

My current list (testing really well, 61 cards):

Creatures - 11
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Notion Thief
3x Tarmogoyf

Sorceries - 3
3x Thoughtseize

Instants - 16
4x Brainstorm
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Darkblast
1x Crop Rotation
2x Mystical Teachings
3x Force of Will
1x Counterspell
1x Spell Snare

Enchantments - 2
2x Pernicious Deed

Planeswalkers - 5
3x Liliana of the Veil
2x Jace Beleren

Lands - 24
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Tropical Island
2x Underground Sea
2x Bayou
3x Wasteland
2x Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Swamp
1x Island
1x Forest

Sideboard (still under development)
3x Chill
3x Surgical Extraction
3x Spell Pierce
2x Golgari Charm
1x Life from the Loam
1x Darkblast
1x Bojuka Bog


The open questions for me currently are:

1) Mystical Teachings vs. Fact or Fiction. Teachings allows a toolbox, Fact or Fiction is just a great late-game card for a control deck. I am sticking with Teachings for now as it seems even BETTER in the late game.

2) Is Jace Beleren good enough for the deck? I am strongly inclined to use Compulsive Research instead, or go janky tech like Wistful Thinking. If only Thirst for Knowledge could target any player it would go into the Teachings toolbox for sure. I will play either Jace or Wistful, but not both. Jace seems more powerful on his own but Wistful is amazing with Thief. Honestly, I think the card draw from little Jace is better. Plus, the new rules changes haven't gone into effect yet. That means he's still a Big Jace killer.

3) Is white worth the splash? The main cards for the white splash would be Swords to Plowshares and Lingering Souls, both of which are just fantastic. I don't think I can maintain a high enough blue count this way though, because while I could go for a singleton Swords, Lingering Souls would need to be a minimum of a 3-of, probably needing a full set. For now I'm more focused on a turn 2 Liliana/Deed or just playing draw-go.

If anyone has any groundbreaking ideas, please share them. I'm going the 'safe' route (no pun intended) by using Thief as a simple draw engine against most matchups and a blue-hoser in other matchups. Some of the more popular decks right now are prey for Notion Thief (Shardless Bug, Esper Stoneblade/Deathblade, and Griselbrand-based combo decks.) I'll be taking the list to a local tournament this Saturday if all goes well, it averages around 10-12 players but has seen as many as 17 and as few as 7. Hopefully I'll get a full 4 rounds in. I'll be sure to report in.