Changes to the planeswalker uniqueness rule

[Arsenal]

How is the Jace race worse now?

In the Jace mirrors, there was a considerable amount of tension before each player reached 4 mana. Sculpting hands full of counters, discard, evasive creatures, etc to deal with Jace was a pretty big deal. Now? I'd imagine that tension will be diminished as I don't really care too much about your Jace as I'll just simply play my own now.

[Esper3k]

Sure, but that just means that instead of it being all about who gets out Jace first (as things were before the rules change), now it's just about getting Jace out, so there is a more even playing field as opposed to a significant advantage going to who went first.

[Higgs]

In the Jace mirrors, there was a considerable amount of tension before each player reached 4 mana. Sculpting hands full of counters, discard, evasive creatures, etc to deal with Jace was a pretty big deal. Now? I'd imagine that tension will be diminished as I don't really care too much about your Jace as I'll just simply play my own now.

This is precisely the kind of unseen huge bundle of decisions and interactions being removed from the game.

[Arsenal]

Sure, but that just means that instead of it being all about who gets out Jace first (as things were before the rules change), now it's just about getting Jace out, so there is a more even playing field as opposed to a significant advantage going to who went first.

While what you say is true, I don't understand why there needs to be an even playing field if one player went to great lengths in resolving Jace while the other player mostly ignored what was happening in the game, hit his 4 land drops due to statistical inevitability, then cast Jace.

[TsumiBand]

While what you say is true, I don't understand why there needs to be an even playing field if one player went to great lengths in resolving Jace while the other player mostly ignored what was happening in the game, hit his 4 land drops due to statistical inevitability, then cast Jace.


This is precisely the kind of unseen huge bundle of decisions and interactions being removed from the game.

I don't understand why an opponent resolving Jace won't still be a point of contention, though. Like, in the mirror people are just going to turn into Oprah and go "YOU get a Jace! I get a Jace! YOU and YOU and YOU get a Jace!"

So wait, because you can no longer blow up an opponent's JTMS with your own, you're going to let it just resolve? If anything the presence of a JTMS should be an even more significant issue since you're down an answer.

What am I not getting about this. If you're "not caring" about an opponent's Jace just because you can play one too, that sounds like you don't care if an opponent can Brainstorm for free every turn, which sounds like a good way to lose more games than you should.

[Arsenal]

I don't understand why an opponent resolving Jace won't still be a point of contention, though. Like, in the mirror people are just going to turn into Oprah and go "YOU get a Jace! I get a Jace! YOU and YOU and YOU get a Jace!"

So wait, because you can no longer blow up an opponent's JTMS with your own, you're going to let it just resolve? If anything the presence of a JTMS should be an even more significant issue since you're down an answer.

What am I not getting about this. If you're "not caring" about an opponent's Jace just because you can play one too, that sounds like you don't care if an opponent can Brainstorm for free every turn, which sounds like a good way to lose more games than you should.

I'll try to stop my opponent, sure, but that battle won't be important as it was before because even if he wins the counter war over his Jace, I doubt he'll have enough juice left to stop me from landing my Jace. Like I said, I won't care as much now.

[Higgs]

Also if opp. has a Jace I won't hold back from casting mine like I did before. Before, if you cast your Jace into another one you were sacrificing a valuable resource to get rid of a big threat. So fighting it off or blowing it up by trading your own was a major decision branching off to different paths of decisions.

[PirateKing]

In the Jace mirrors, there was a considerable amount of tension before each player reached 4 mana. Sculpting hands full of counters, discard, evasive creatures, etc to deal with Jace was a pretty big deal. Now? I'd imagine that tension will be diminished as I don't really care too much about your Jace as I'll just simply play my own now.

How exactly is it diminished though? They're still playing Jace, while not quite answer-or-die that turn, will need to be dealt with quickly.

They way you put it, there were 3 things that would answer Jace: counters, evasive creatures, and your own Jace.
Now that list is reduced to just 2.

I see it as MORE tension building to 4 mana, get that Force ready, prime that Tar Pit, whatever. After they plop down their Jace and storm, you follow by mirroring them, still doesn't answer their Jace. It's still there, doing what it does so infamously.

Seems like it will be with out a doubt different, but less? I'm not so sure.

[Arsenal]

Seems like it will be with out a doubt different, but less? I'm not so sure.

Perhaps. Only time will tell if there is less "game" to be played before each player hits 4 mana in the Jace mirror or if it's simply going to be a different "game" that's played.

[PirateKing]

Perhaps. Only time will tell if there is less "game" to be played before each player hits 4 mana in the Jace mirror or if it's simply going to be a different "game" that's played.

Agreed.

[Esper3k]

While what you say is true, I don't understand why there needs to be an even playing field if one player went to great lengths in resolving Jace while the other player mostly ignored what was happening in the game, hit his 4 land drops due to statistical inevitability, then cast Jace.

If they ignored your Jace, that's fine - you still have all of your own preparations in order to stop their Jace in addition to having landed yours first.


I don't understand why an opponent resolving Jace won't still be a point of contention, though. Like, in the mirror people are just going to turn into Oprah and go "YOU get a Jace! I get a Jace! YOU and YOU and YOU get a Jace!"

So wait, because you can no longer blow up an opponent's JTMS with your own, you're going to let it just resolve? If anything the presence of a JTMS should be an even more significant issue since you're down an answer.

What am I not getting about this. If you're "not caring" about an opponent's Jace just because you can play one too, that sounds like you don't care if an opponent can Brainstorm for free every turn, which sounds like a good way to lose more games than you should.

Yeah, exactly. I actually like it more because it's no longer all important to land your Jace first and get a Brainstorm out of it. Now, if you land yours second, you can still match your opponent on card advantage yet they still get some advantage for getting theirs down first.

It actually makes Jace a little easier to deal with, imo because now you can have your own Jace instead of being forced to use it as a Vindicate but they end up still getting up a card on you.


How exactly is it diminished though? They're still playing Jace, while not quite answer-or-die that turn, will need to be dealt with quickly.

They way you put it, there were 3 things that would answer Jace: counters, evasive creatures, and your own Jace.
Now that list is reduced to just 2.

I see it as MORE tension building to 4 mana, get that Force ready, prime that Tar Pit, whatever. After they plop down their Jace and storm, you follow by mirroring them, still doesn't answer their Jace. It's still there, doing what it does so infamously.

Seems like it will be with out a doubt different, but less? I'm not so sure.

Your own Jace still answers their Jace - it actually answers it better now since you can actually match them on card advantage instead of them getting card advantage on you like they currently do if you play your Jace to Planeswalker Rule them.

[Darkenslight]

On the plus side, it now opens up Jace as a Constructed Deck type. :D

[FieryBalrog]

Recognizing an umbrella is dumb as shit. With the current technology unless you give a computer an image of an umbrella under every condition, shape, color, type, position and lighting it can't recognize an umbrella most of the time. Your point is?

Chewbacca defense at work? Good job.

[Higgs]

Nope. It's just you failing to realize the direct relevance of the example because you don't understand AI and the comparison Mr. Mcdonalds drew with solving the complexity of Go.

[FieryBalrog]

Nope. It's just you failing to realize the direct relevance of the example because you don't understand AI and the comparison Mr. Mcdonalds drew with solving the complexity of Go.

I understood it perfectly. It was still a completely irrelevant response to his point which you failed to address. Unlike recognizing an umbrella, playing Go is trivial for neither humans nor AI despite the elegant simplicity in rules set. Unfortunately you were too busy being clever to actually address the point.

[Higgs]

Discussion on that point passed x pages ago, feels like you're just in the mood to pick up personal fights. There's plenty of it going on in the reprints threads.

McDonalds' example was on Go being simple on the surface while being incredibly complex on its entirety, such that even a computer can't be programmed to beat humans, and then to draw a parallel between that and Magic. My point was just because a computer can't perform a function or solve a problem that doesn't mean it's incredibly complex, because human brain and AI thinks differently, therefore his example and the parallel he drew was N/A.

[Barook]

Now Jitte doesn't answer Jitte anymore, can we expect Manriki-Gusari as a SB 1-of if you run SFM? Answers both enemy Jittes and Batterskulls.

[Higgs]

I'm glad someone brought it up. I've been thinking about Jitte and considering even Punishing Fire mirrors are a thing in Legacy Jitte and obligatory artifact removal has the potential to become the new trend. I'm not sure if people are realizing the full potential of Jitte going forward.

[Megadeus]

Jitte will be very very annoying. It is already borderline impossible for an aggro deck to beat it... Now it is whoever gets counters on their jitte first! I know SFM is a thing, but do you guys think a package that plays STeelshapers Gift will see some play? I know it is a modern card mostly, but searching up a jitte a turn faster may win you the jitte war.

[(nameless one)]

Maybe with this change, red will be a better color.

Think about it, burn cards wouldn't be inferior to creature destruction/exile because it can play a major role in Jace mirror.

If you're running a Jace deck and you're worrying against the opposing Jace, would the red splash (for Pyroblast/REB) help? Miracle decks started doing it.

[TsumiBand]

Jitte will be very very annoying. It is already borderline impossible for an aggro deck to beat it... Now it is whoever gets counters on their jitte first! I know SFM is a thing, but do you guys think a package that plays STeelshapers Gift will see some play? I know it is a modern card mostly, but searching up a jitte a turn faster may win you the jitte war.

Any deck that would play SSG or SFM may not need to worry about it; there's plenty of answers to Jitte in that color. Hell, people might actually start running fringe junk like Suppression Field to keep Jitte and other equipment on lockdown, now that every color can't just pay :2: to turn their own Jittes into Shatters.. That's a card looking for a deck if I ever saw one.

[Megadeus]

Supression field is such a beating lol

[pavlaugh]

Hell, people might actually start running fringe junk like Suppression Field to keep Jitte and other equipment on lockdown, now that every color can't just pay :2: to turn their own Jittes into Shatters.. That's a card looking for a deck if I ever saw one.

I'd like to see me some renewed Null Rod action. Has the added benefit of shutting off mana abilities (LED, Moxes, Petal, artifact lands) and other nifty artifact cards/decks (affinity, mud, belcher); and of course, it's colorless! (RUG, BUG, Jund, etc.). No so good against the planeswalkers, though.
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSaVkUS97m1BNlb3iwBKvA0Tm1fkuk3Nz0C44U13oZ4LaKeI9cIVg

[TsumiBand]

I'd like to see me some renewed Null Rod action. Has the added benefit of shutting off mana abilities (LED, Moxes, Petal, artifact lands) and other nifty artifact cards/decks (affinity, mud, belcher); and of course, it's colorless! (RUG, BUG, Jund, etc.). No so good against the planeswalkers, though.
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSaVkUS97m1BNlb3iwBKvA0Tm1fkuk3Nz0C44U13oZ4LaKeI9cIVg

Yeah Null Rod and friends are pretty cool, but Suppression Field taxes so fucking many things.

Fetchlands
Wasteland
Aether Vial
Planeswalker loyalty abilities
Equip costs/abilities
DRS/Lavamancer/SFM's 1W ability/whatever else relevant creature abilities besides their mana abilities

Plus, if you're playing a deck full of like Glittering Lion and Knight of the Holy Nimbus and whatnot, your opponent will have a much harder time killing them! Don't play those cards, they are terrible.

[Shawon]

Now Jitte doesn't answer Jitte anymore, can we expect Manriki-Gusari as a SB 1-of if you run SFM? Answers both enemy Jittes and Batterskull?

Probably, that's what I'm trying now in my Esper Affinity list with SFM. Leonin Bola is also a neat Equipment that can stop a Jitte-carrier or Batterskull and doubles up as a hoser to Emrakul. Leonin Bola is also pretty sick with your own Batterskull, as you can attack with Batterskull and tap itself to tap out an opponent's blocker, deal 4 and gain 4. You can use the same trick with Manriki-Gusari if your Batterskull is going to be blocked by a Jitte-carrier.

Tower of the Magistrate is another reliable answer to Jitte and Batterskull.

EDIT: Reality Ripple. Target Germ or Jitte-carrier, the Equipment phases out permanently.

[joven]

EDIT: Reality Ripple. Target Germ or Jitte-carrier, the Equipment phases out permanently.

???
As far as I know nothing phases out permanently (at least according to the old Mirage rules). Phasing is a coming and going.
An exception could be tokens, although I'm not sure because the Phasing rules got changed from actually being out of play to just be treated as out of play. Luckily no one plays those old cards with Phasing anymore.
I'm pretty sure the Equipment won't phase out if you cast Reality Ripple on a Germ token. The Equipment will be unattached though.

[lyracian]

I'm pretty sure the Equipment won't phase out if you cast Reality Ripple on a Germ token. The Equipment will be unattached though.Go read the phasing rules again.
Tokens that Phase out cease to exist.
Equipment and Aura's phase out with the creature they are attached too and phase in with it again.
Put the two rules together and Jitte/Batterskull phase out and never come back.

[TsumiBand]

???
As far as I know nothing phases out permanently (at least according to the old Mirage rules). Phasing is a coming and going.
An exception could be tokens, although I'm not sure because the Phasing rules got changed from actually being out of play to just be treated as out of play. Luckily no one plays those old cards with Phasing anymore.
I'm pretty sure the Equipment won't phase out if you cast Reality Ripple on a Germ token. The Equipment will be unattached though.

I was under the idea that when a permanent phases out, attached permanents such as Equipment and Auras phase out with it, and phase in with the permanent.

This is probably why phasing is so ass, is because people don't know or care how it works, because it is Phasing.


702.24f When a permanent phases out, any Auras, Equipment, or Fortifications attached to that permanent phase out at the same time. This alternate way of phasing out is known as phasing out “indirectly.” An Aura, Equipment, or Fortification that phased out indirectly won’t phase in by itself, but instead phases in along with the permanent it’s attached to.

....

702.24k Phased-out tokens cease to exist as a state-based action. See rule 704.5d.

[Deviruchi]

702.24f When a permanent phases out, any Auras, Equipment, or Fortifications attached to that permanent phase out at the same time. This alternate way of phasing out is known as phasing out “indirectly.” An Aura, Equipment, or Fortification that phased out indirectly won’t phase in by itself, but instead phases in along with the permanent it’s attached to.

702.24k Phased-out tokens cease to exist as a state-based action. See rule 704.5d.

Also: Sapphire Charm > Reality Ripple vs Germ token

[SirTylerGalt]

Reality Ripple is indeed a nice answer to a Batterskull-equipped germ token.

But Jitte will only phase out permanently if it is attached to a token. It won't work if it's attached to a real creature.

[Poron]

yes but who is going to pack a set (full or not) of that for the singleton Batterskull played in SFM decks? the answear must be a straight artifact removal

[joven]

Go read the phasing rules again.
Tokens that Phase out cease to exist.
Equipment and Aura's phase out with the creature they are attached too and phase in with it again.
Put the two rules together and Jitte/Batterskull phase out and never come back.

Crappy rule changes! During Mirage there were no equipments and nobody cast auras onto tokens. Of course it makes a little bit more sense flavorwise, but Phasing never really made much sense anyway.

[TsumiBand]

Yeah let's not overthink the "Phasing as an answer to equipment" thing too much. It's Phasing. It's up there with like Islandhome and Banding. It's icky.

Could it just be that more decks want to splash to cover their weaknesses? Now that uniqueness no longer makes good cards their own best answer? Would that just be totally stupid, or what. I'm only half being an ass; the new rule directly affected a lot of Blue lines of play - Jace v. Jace, Image/Metamorph v. other Legendary things, and so on. So, like... guess ya wanna dig out a Tundra for some Disenchant action, or what?

[Lord Seth]

Yeah let's not overthink the "Phasing as an answer to equipment" thing too much. It's Phasing. It's up there with like Islandhome and Banding. It's icky.I don't see how Islandhome is similar at all to Phasing and Banding. Phasing and Banding are abilities that just cause a bunch of rules confusion. Islandhome (which was never a keyword) is pretty straightforward. You don't read Island Fish Jasconius, original text or errata, and wonder how it interacts with Islands. Phasing and Banding, on the other hand, are just sources of major confusion. The funny thing is in a Legacy tournament, I was playing against someone who had been playing for about a year, and I had to actually explain what phasing was to him when he saw the Vision Charm in my hand when he Inquisition of Kozilek'd.

[Mewens]

Clever strat. "Judge – slow play? My opponent's taking forever to decide whether to hit Chains of Mephistopheles, Balduvian Shaman or Vision Charm." Bonus: You dodge Cabal Therapy even on the flashback! "Um, hit the one that ... does the thing with ... um."

[TsumiBand]

I don't see how Islandhome is similar at all to Phasing and Banding. Phasing and Banding are abilities that just cause a bunch of rules confusion. Islandhome (which was never a keyword) is pretty straightforward. You don't read Island Fish Jasconius, original text or errata, and wonder how it interacts with Islands. Phasing and Banding, on the other hand, are just sources of major confusion. The funny thing is in a Legacy tournament, I was playing against someone who had been playing for about a year, and I had to actually explain what phasing was to him when he saw the Vision Charm in my hand when he Inquisition of Kozilek'd.

What? No, dammit not because it's confusing because they all suck. Islandhome is the last word I want to see on a Magic card. Islandhome, phasing, banding, regeneration with a mana cost, epic, every not-flying evasion thing, bloodrush, bushido... all bad but they all probably have corner-case applications. Phasing's just poopy and shouldn't be a talked about like a real answer to equipment. That's all

[Barook]

Considering this change was probably made for Theros (which might have a legendary theme), I do hope they don't cater the EDH crowd too much with a bunch of overcosted legends and throw in some playable stuff, too.

[TsumiBand]

Considering this change was probably made for Theros (which might have a legendary theme), I do hope they don't cater the EDH crowd too much with a bunch of overcosted legends and throw in some playable stuff, too.

Hopefully it will be like Kamigawa++. It was always difficult to push the envelope on Legendary creatures due to first the swingy "got mine first!" thing, and then the mutual assured destruction thing prevented a lot of Legendary stuff from being worthwhile unless it was insanely good (Jitte!), but with that out of the way it will be interesting to see how many Isamarus make the rounds.

Come to think of it, Isamaru might actually be a little better now than it was before. But oh wait, Goblin Guide, and Nacatl, and Show and Tell :( sigh

[Barook]

Hopefully it will be like Kamigawa++. It was always difficult to push the envelope on Legendary creatures due to first the swingy "got mine first!" thing, and then the mutual assured destruction thing prevented a lot of Legendary stuff from being worthwhile unless it was insanely good (Jitte!), but with that out of the way it will be interesting to see how many Isamarus make the rounds.

Come to think of it, Isamaru might actually be a little better now than it was before. But oh wait, Goblin Guide, and Nacatl, and Show and Tell :( sigh
I would probably even play Dryad Militant before I would play Isamaru.

Kamigawa also had the problem that they had to make it suck to tone down the powerlevel of Standard after Mirrodin block. But since Gatecrash & Dragon's Maze took already care of that, :rolleyes: it might not suck.

I would enjoy more creatures on the powerlevel of Thalia. That would lead to a further price increase for Karakas, though.

[TsumiBand]

I would probably even play Dryad Militant before I would play Isamaru.

Kamigawa also had the problem that they had to make it suck to tone down the powerlevel of Standard after Mirrodin block. But since Gatecrash & Dragon's Maze took already care of that, :rolleyes: it might not suck.

I would enjoy more creatures on the powerlevel of Thalia. That would lead to a further price increase for Karakas, though.

I guess I was speaking metaphorically. Isamaru was at the time one of the better one-drops seen in Standard in a very long time, but it was subject to the "new" Legendary rule at the time so it could not be as aggressive as people wanted it to be due to the fact that it not only couldn't come down in multiples on one player's side, but the mirror match was a series of begrudging sacrifices that would be decided by who drew more Isamarus.

Now that THAT isn't a problem, I would love to see an Isamaru-in-spirit 2.0.

[Esper3k]

Really a Legendary 3/3 for W would be fine.

3/2 first strike for W would be amazing.

[Gheizen64]

Really a Legendary 3/3 for W would be fine.

3/2 first strike for W would be amazing.

I could see a 2/2 vigilance at most. I don't think they'd push for a 3/3 for W so soon really. Nacatl was also banned in modern. Maybe we will see a white knight variant but 3/3 (as a legend). WW drops have been pretty mediocre, it's all about the 1W.

[Barook]

Really a Legendary 3/3 for W would be fine.
Probably, with the current power creep, although unlikely.


3/2 first strike for W would be amazing.
Or they just make a 3/2 flyer for :u: because what could possibly go wrong?


I could see a 2/2 vigilance at most. I don't think they'd push for a 3/3 for W so soon really. Nacatl was also banned in modern. Maybe we will see a white knight variant but 3/3 (as a legend). WW drops have been pretty mediocre, it's all about the 1W.
What I would love to see is a Honor of the Pure slapped on a 2/2 legendary stick for :w::w:, maybe with first strike - I doubt this would be overpowered. 3/3s for 2 mana is hardly impressive anymore since they're already pushing that on monogreen.

[Shawon]

I think one area of designing aggro creatures that is un(der)explored is limited damage prevention, ala Eiganjo Castle.

Imagine if we had a :w: 3/1 First Striker that had ":w: (or :1:): Prevent next 2 damage dealt to ~." Or 1 damage if we made the critter a 3/2 striker. It would have interesting interactions with the various sources of removal out there. A Lightning Bolt could still kill it, but "bad" burn spells like Punishing Fire couldn't, whereas a Darkblast could easily kill a 3/1 (I would get a good laugh at a burn player wishing he had a Darkblast instead of a burn spell!).

[TsumiBand]

Actually I would really love to see a super asshole taxing Legendary White Weenie at :w::w:. Something that works with Thalia to make life fucking suck for target opponent, but doesn't just get thrown into every deck with Plains in it. I know they banned Nacatl in Modern, but even if they hadn't I don't feel like White can do much with a 3/x for 1cmc, that isn't the way White wins the game.

I always felt like tax was way way under-developed for the White Weenie mechanic in general - it should play like prison-aggro, because really that is the last bastion for White Weenie to be successful and original without playing into the "how many Lords can I jam into my deck" theme that pretty much every tribe is going for these days. Prison, tax, lawmaking (Meddling Mage effects) - those would be a good core of a good WW strategy, but they are always costed way too cautiously (save Thalia) to matter a damn.

[Shawon]

Actually I would really love to see a super asshole taxing Legendary White Weenie at :w::w:. Something that works with Thalia to make life fucking suck for target opponent, but doesn't just get thrown into every deck with Plains in it. I know they banned Nacatl in Modern, but even if they hadn't I don't feel like White can do much with a 3/x for 1cmc, that isn't the way White wins the game.

Maybe something with a tax-clause with a variable for how many Plains that player controls?

[L0cke]

Probably too overpowered to be printed at :w::w: but I would hope to see something like
<Insert Tax Pun Here> :w::w:
Non-white spells cost an additional :w: or :2: to cast.

[Lemnear]

How easily people forget, that the combination of a reasonable body and a resistor-effect did to Vintage...

[Gheizen64]

More than resistors, i'd like to see something against "unfair effects" a la:

Messiah of the meeks W
Creature - Messiah
Defender
Players can't draw more than 3 cards each turn, can't play more than 3 spells each turn and creatures with power 3 or greater can't attack or block.
0/3

Extremely easy to remove but give you a sort of insurance against retarded plays in early turns. We seriously need something for red though.

The Gambler R
Creature - Human Gambler
T, discard a card at random from your hand: If it's a land, add RR to your mana pool, if it's a non-land draw a card.
1/1

"Random" effects don't have to sucks you stupid WotC, just like cursed scroll. The "random" mechanic is an excellent way to make draw not as good for combo/control decks and better for streamlined red decks, but you've managed to never make something decent from it.

[Shawon]

How easily people forget, that the combination of a reasonable body and a resistor-effect did to Vintage...

I don't think it's as much as people (in this forum) easily forget, but more like they don't care what happens in Vintage as long as those cards like Lodestone Golem only end up seeing niche play in Legacy. I'll be honest, I don't, and I think Vintage is a fun and skill-intensive format. I'm playing Affinity in Legacy and on my wish-list of cards to come out is a creature version of Tangle Wire. Not that I'm seriously wishing for that card to come out, but if it did, I wouldn't lose sleep on how much it would overpower Workshop decks in Vintage. Sad but true.

[TsumiBand]

I don't think it's as much as people (in this forum) easily forget, but more like they don't care what happens in Vintage as long as those cards like Lodestone Golem only end up seeing niche play in Legacy. I'll be honest, I don't, and I think Vintage is a fun and skill-intensive format. I'm playing Affinity in Legacy and on my wish-list of cards to come out is a creature version of Tangle Wire. Not that I'm seriously wishing for that card to come out, but if it did, I wouldn't lose sleep on how much it would overpower Workshop decks in Vintage. Sad but true.

+1

Do not give a rats ass about Lodestone Golem in Vintage. I totally had it in mind when I posted and I knew someone would be all "rrr lodestone gomel is a house" and it's just like... fucking so? In Vintage? Cry real hard about it.

A Tangle Wire creature would be badass.

[lyracian]

Not sure if anyone has started playtesting with the new rules? Do people think 4 JTMS will be the way to go in decks like Miracles/Stoneblade or will 3 and more answers be better?