[Deck] Dark Depths

[lsho]

It was announced today, that the Legendary Rule that's in place since Champions of Kamigawa got a slight revision. This enables Dark Depths + Thespian's Stage, making Vampire Hexmage and its BB cost a bit more obsolete. So I was thinking that we could come up with a shared deck idea that we can try.

I don't have a list in mind yet but I guess it's probably a good starting point to base it off the BUG shell because we can still run 1-2 Hexmages but this would be where I'd begin:

4 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Vampire Hexmage
(11)

2 Crop Rotation
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Spell Pierce
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Brainstorm
3 Hymn to Tourach
(25)

4 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
4 Dark Depths
3 Thespian's Stage
(24)

I am sure this list is super rough and the mana base is far from good... but I guess this is what this board is for. Let's build something!

[Barsoom]

I would add some Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, it's a legend so it's better with the new rules, with it in play both Thespian's Stage and Dark Depths can be tapped for B so will be easier to cast both Vampire Hexmage and Liliana of the Veil

[PissedNumlock]

In your current list you have 2 lines with Liliana, playing a total of 5 copies.

[Poron]

OMG, this + Knight of the Reliquary -____-

as if it wasn't enough

[lsho]

In your current list you have 2 lines with Liliana, playing a total of 5 copies.

sry, kinda typed it blindly. should have been hymn although i am not sure it is that good with its BB cost.

[imnotbrown]

This enables Dark Depths + Thespian's Stage, making Vampire Hexmage and its BB cost a bit more obsolete.
Vampire hexmage is not obsolete.Because while he is an important part of this combo, you want to protect it as well, which is clearly why you have liliana and hymn included. Two cards who also have BB in their cost, arguably played earlier than hexmage. So while his BB casting cost can be a bit tough, so can those other cards. I would definitely include at least 3 hexmage, maybe even living wish. You definitely do not need 24 lands, seeing as your curve tops at 3, and you run top and brainstorm, along with 4 shamans. You will get land flooded so often. So remove 4 lands, add urborg to what you already have, at least 2, include more hexmages, and maybe another crop rotation. You probab
ly dont need thoughtseize, inquisition, and hymn, so i'd pick two and stick with those. probably thoughtseize, since you're not running bob or anything, meaning the life loss is negligible. And if you do get Marit Lage out, they're gonna swords it, meaning you gain 20 life. Also do playset of top.

[ivanpei]

I advise going GW (Just splash the combo into Mav) or go Straight up GB. I don't think the blue is worth it because by playing Thespian Stage, your mana is very fragile. I'd play this list:

4 Deathrite
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant

4 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition
3 Crop Rotation
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library
2 Liliana
4 Living Wish

3 Thespian's Stage
3 Dark Depths
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacomb
1 Misty
1 Marsh Flats
2 Delta
2 Bayou
1 Forest
2 Swamps
2 Urborg

SB:

1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 Karakas
1 Vampire Hexmage (in case of stuff like Pithing Needle)
1 Shriekmaw
1 Bojuka Bog
etc etc

[imnotbrown]

1 Vampire Hexmage (in case of stuff like Pithing Needle)


Do you mean surgical extraction?

[vennie]

Do you mean surgical extraction?

No I think he means if some1 needle's your stage as a backup option.

[imnotbrown]

No I think he means if some1 needle's your stage as a backup option.
Oh, I didn't realize he wasn't running hexmage main. Well, I'm still going with what i said before. Don't need 25 lands, 3 crop rotate and 2 urborg will definitely keep mana from being a problem, play all 4 tops, play hexmages main, yadda yadda yadda.
EDIT: not sure if wasteland i necessary.
Second edit: did nto realize that copying dark depths with stage would mean a depths without ice counters. nevermind.

[JanoschEausH]

I dont think the combo is strong enough. STP is a card as is Maze of Ith.

[ivanpei]

I dont think the combo is strong enough. STP is a card as is Maze of Ith.

So is discard and wasteland. No combo is perfect. Having an answer to their answer works. IMO I still prefer the GW Mav version because you don't have to "all in" on the combo. It can just be used as a combo finish if you need it or if there is an opening (ie opponent is tapped out, etc).

[Norm]

I dont think the combo is strong enough. STP is a card as is Maze of Ith.

In addition to the solutions Ivanpei mentioned, you could run Not of this world. That may put you more in on the combo, but life's more fun on the dark side anyway.

[trevaftw]

Creatures - 3
3 Vampire Hexmage

Art - 11
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void

Spells - 22
4 Living Wish
4 Crop Rotation
4 Explore
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Sylvan Scrying
2 Maelstrom Pulse

Lands - 24
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Dark Depths
2 Thespains Stage
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bayou
4 Wasteland
2 Swamp
1 Forest

My Gb Take on it.

[Norm]

I think Life from the loam is probably better than crucible there. I'm also not sure that I love wasteland in this deck. I've been running more acceleration like dark ritual to try and keep the stage version of the combo at a similar speed as the hexmage. Wasting your opponent is just slowing you down. I've also been testing with four not of this world MD.

This may be super jank land but it's actually rather consistent

[bruizar]

Just don't forget that loam gets taken by Deathrite Shaman and Crucible of Worlds gets taken by Abrupt Decay.

[L0cke]

I have been playing Junk Depths list for the last month and change, currently having taken it to three weekly events at my local store in addition to other playtesting. At the store the smallest event was 18 players with the largest around 30 iirc. All three weeks I have top-8'd with a total of 14 matches played which comes out to winning around $55 from this deck so far. Of those 14 games I won 9(including some games where we intentionally drew, then played it out for fun), 1 ID, and 4 losses. Two losses to the same UW Cawblade/miracles hybrid, one to TES, and one to Punishing Jund. Since I have found the deck extremely enjoyable and also rather powerful I figured I would post my list and thoughts on here soon, but with the rule changes I believe the deck has become even more powerful than it already is. Overall I think this deck has some really sweet interactions, and of the losses I've had at the local tournaments one of the Miracles losses and the Jund loss were both caused by my own errors in the last turn of the game which lost the matches I could have won if I had made optimal plays.

If you want to just see what I think will be the best after the rules change goes into effect skip to the bottom, however this section on the deck currently I think will make the list there make a lot more sense to you.

Here is the list I have been running to within 2-3 cards

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Vampire Hexmage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg

3 Crop Rotation
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Thoughtseize
1 Life from the Loam
4 Living Wish

2 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
3 Wasteland
1 Dark Depths
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze of Ith
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Karakas

SB

1 Dark Depths
1 Vampire Hexmage
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Darkblast
1 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Nature's Claim
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Ethersworn Canonist


Before you go bashing the list, I do at least have some reasoning behind the cards currently there and what is conspicuously absent from it that might be in similar lists.

It has some advantages over a list focused solely on the combo, and plays the fair creature game rather well.

The Combo
3 Hexmage/1 Depths main
1 Hexmage/1 Depths board

Pretty self explanatory with Living Wishes.

The Enablers
4 Living Wish: Tutors up your sb copies of the combo, and additional answers to problematic things on board. Often you will end up blowing a Hexmage to kill a Liliana or a Jace before you go grab your combo to insta-win, and this lets you find a lot of value cards to get you to a win either with a 20/20 or just beat them with huge Knights.

4 Knight of the Reliquary: Probably one of the best creatures in the deck. Tutors for the Depths in the main, or for protection from removal, or just is a big beater to finish out fair games or a wall to keep you alive long enough to win. Its difficult to lose if you untap with one or more Knights ever in the game.

3 Crop Rotation: Also functions as a combo-piece finder, and protection finding your utility lands at instant speed to keep your marit lage alive, or just to keep you alive long enough to win with your other creatures.

The Fair Stuff

4 Dark Confidant: Simple, draws you lots of cards. Often if your opponent doesn't know what your end-goal is they will waste their Swords to Plowshares or other removal on it and not have any relevant removal for your Hexmage or Marit Lage a couple turns later

4 Deathrite Shaman: Mana-dork, lavamancer, lifegain, graveyard hate. This guy does everything, and there is no real point for me to talk more about him here.

1 Qasali Pridemage: Good removal for Jitte's/Batterskulls as about half the time you want to win with one swing and lifegain can give them another turn to deal with your Marit Lage.

2 Sensei's Divining Top: Finds your combo, finds whatever you need really. Interacts favorably with Bob, and gives you a way to play around discard by floating a crop rotation against Hymn decks, and drawing it in response to a removal spell on your Hexmage/Marit Lage or on their end step if they ever tap out against you.

1 Green Sun's Zenith: Useful, but not overly so in this list. Its a second Teeg and Pridemage in the main, and occasionally a Knight or a Shaman when you need it. This could very easily become another thoughtsieze or crop rotation.

4 Swords to Plowshares: Best removal for creatures.

3 Wasteland: Disruption. Often the safest play with it is to remove their only white source on the turn you want to make a Marit Lage, or to hold it to kill their wasteland before you try to remove the counters with Hexmage.

Protection/Disruption

3 Thoughtsieze: Disruption for combo decks, lets you check and see if the coast is clear to combo and kill them, and just generally slows them down a bit. Almost never dead against most decks. Could easily be correct to play 4th copy, however you have enough other disruption and protection 3 has been fine for me and rarely did I want more than one or maybe 2 in most games.

1 Life from the Loam: Lets you get back a Depths if you need to make a second Marit Lage after it has been removed, or just waste-locks people out some games.

1 Gaddock Teeg: Your best card against Miracles by far. As that is one of the hardest match-ups for this style of deck, you want this in the main somewhere and wishing for the second copy or just to keep as terminus protection is critical against them. Also works well against most blue but non-white decks, as their main out to a Marit Lage will be Jace.

1 Bojuka Bog: 1 main and one board to wish for gives you outs to dredge game one, and slows down U/x decks or Punishing Fire decks that are either snapcastering cantrips to find their outs or just recurring removal for all your dudes.

1 Karakas: randomly good against a lot of decks, lets you bounce your Teeg to replay later if its going to die.

1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth: Mana fixing, makes Depths tap for mana, same with Maze.

1 Sejiri Steppe: I wish I could find space for two of these, as it leads to a lot of the best blowouts I have had. Turns your Crop Rotations and Knight activations into protection from StP, or Decay most commonly, and lets you get a huge Knight or Marit Lage through a clogged board for the final damage.

1 Volrath's Stronghold: Lets you dredge into all your pieces if the game goes that long. A little slow and clunky, with the new rules changes this may get cut in favor of Thespian's Stage or other utility lands as Hexmage isn't as critical after that goes into effect.

1 Maze of Ith: Lets you stall the game until you can win later, or gives your Knights "vigilance" by untapping them after damage. In a list with this much land tutoring already, its silly not to play this powerful of an effect.

1 Horizon Canopy: With 25 Lands, only 23 of which normally produce mana that's sometimes a little too much land. I kept going between 22 and 23 lands outside of Depths and Maze, with 22 being a little light for trying to hit your first 4 drops every game and 23 getting flooded more than I would like, and this is a good compromise being a land when you need one, and trading it in later for a card when you don't.

Sideboard Cards

1 Gaddock Teeg, Dark Depths, Vampire Hexmage, Bojuka Bog, Pridemage: See above

1 Darkblast: Comes in against most fair decks. Recurrable removal for Moms, opposing Bobs, and X/1 fliers that can chump your Marit Lage is good. Also since all your pieces can be found by dredging with the Stronghold and Loam, dredging it is almost never bad.

1 Extirpate/1 Surgical extraction: Graveyard/combo hate. These are just the most efficient at what they do. Split second is almost never a relevant line of text, but when almost every land you have adds B to your pool, its nice to have multiple disruption pieces.

1 Nature's Claim: Artifact/Enchantment destruction is good in lots of situations, and having a one mana answer to swords/jitte/batterskull/counterbalance is very nice.

1 Abrupt Decay: Good all-purpose removal. Mostly worth it for fair decks with Liliana in them.

1 Krosan Grip: I like having varied casting-cost removal and not running several of the same card. Makes it harder for your opponent to know what to play around, but it certainly wouldn't be wrong to choose your favorite removal and just run multiples of that.

1 Diabolic Edict: More creature removal, and hates on Sneak & Show.

2 Ethersworn Canonist: Storm hate, also typically bring one in against decks with Shardless Agent or Bloodbraid Elf as another body/roadblock to slow them down

1 Orzhov Pontiff: One of the best wish targets in the deck. Often the hardest matches are the ones with large clogged boards and/or Lingering Souls tokens. This becomes a 1-sided wrath and is excellent against tokens/multiple Moms etc. The haunt ability is largely irrelevant, however just clearing out the opposing board for an alpha strike is very very good if the game goes long. Also another out to goblins dumping their hand with a lackey you couldn't answer or Empty tokens.

Not Included

0 Liliana of the Veil: You want to be drawing and holding as many cards as possible typically. Her edict and her hand disruption don't really help us against any of the decks we are having trouble against.

0 Dryad Arbor: You want to be casting your hexmages early and a land that can't tap for mana on turn one and doesn't produce black is not very good. I have debated running it and had it in an earlier version of this list as protection against edicts to turn Crop Rotation or Knight or a green fetch into a way to thwart Liliana, however it was too clunky when drawn outside of that to keep in.

0 Hymn to Tourach: You're not playing the attrition game typically with this deck, and most of their cards are irrelevant to Marit Lage, so Thoughtsieze is just better most of the time.

More Abrupt Decay: The cannot be countered clause is largely irrelevant, and it's really just an ok removal spell since most decks only have 1-2 things you need to get through to hit them.

0 Exploration/Explore/Sylvan Scrying/Expedition Map: You don't really need to be playing multiple lands/turn with this style of deck or even have more tutor effects than you already have. Its ok to spend your first couple turns using discard and running out typical removal lightning rods like Deathrite Shaman and Bob and then combo them on turn three or four when they have no more relevant removal.

More Green Sun's Zenith: This card is really not at its best here, and is mainly just a utility card to smooth out finding a Knight or Teeg.


Notes and thoughts on Sidaboarding with the current list:

Sideboarding with this deck should be minimal. Ideally you are switching less than five cards total. Often against (non-Grizzlebees) combo I will take out the 4 StP and the Pridemage for the 2nd Teeg, the 2 Canonists, and the Surgical/Extirpate if its relevant. Against Stoneblade decks you typically want to bring in only the Decay, the Grip, and the Nature's Claim, often shaving a StP (since decay hits their Mystics), a Deathrite Shaman or two if you think they have RIP, or a Teeg if they are non-blue.

Most decks are slow enough that you can leave your second Teeg and Pridemage in the board to wish for but things like TES and ANT you want them all main. Against most storm decks you want to take out the 4 StP and your 4 Living Wish and the Pridemage for all your relevant wish targets and hate because you just wont have time to resolve both wish and your hatebears.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That about covers the current list I have been playing and pretty much all the thoughts that are relevant on it. On now to where I think the deck should go in light of the new rules changes. The deck honestly needs very minimal changes to be more competitive in my mind. The above list works very well and is rather consistent and has a lot going for it, especially since you will no longer have to be all in on Hexmage to get your Marit Lage token.


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Vampire Hexmage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg

4 Crop Rotation
4 Swords to Plowshares

3 Thoughtseize
1 Life from the Loam
4 Living Wish

2 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
3 Wasteland
1 Dark Depths
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze of Ith
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Karakas

SB

1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 Vampire Hexmage
1 Darkblast
1 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Nature's Claim
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Ethersworn Canonist


The differences if you don't want to have to compare yourself are

MD
-1 Green Sun's Zenith
+1 Crop Rotation
-1 Volrath's Stronghold
+1 Thespian's Stage


SB
+1 Thespian's Stage
-1 Whatever you think will be least helpful in your meta(in my case probably Darkblast, Edict, or most likely, the Bog)

Now before you go off about how this isn't a drastic change from the current list or is too fragile or not fast enough, there are several reasons why in my mind I don't want to alter the core of the deck too much.
First and foremost, it works as is. It can play the fair game very well, and occasionally just "oops, I win with my 20/20"
Secondly, Thespian's Stage is slower, because it effectively costs 3 mana to use (2 to activate, and tapping itself for the "third" mana), and Depths has to be in play to do that. Its a turn slower than a Hexmage because of the costs required.
Thirdly, the Stage is really just a way to get more mileage out of your tutors. It also allows for you to keep mana up or a Knight up and gives you an out to a wasteland you cannot deal with.
For example, you activate Hexmage and remove all the counters on Depths. In response to the trigger from Depths, they target it with wasteland. Normally this means you just edicted yourself and they blow up your depths, however with a stage in your library and a tutor you can respond to that by tutoring up the stage, making it a copy of depths choosing to sacrifice your depths from the new legend rule, then their wasteland gets countered because it has no valid targets, and your Stage Depths triggers to make your 20/20.
Stage also allows you to cut Stronghold as a way to allow you to dredge to your combo. Stronghold was always clunky, but necessary for multiple recursions of Depths before now. However with this change you only need Loam. It also gives you another wish target if your hexmage gets named with a Revoker or Pithing Needle.
Also, having multiple pieces tutorable with Crop Rotation and Knight is a plus, but if the rest of your deck is capable of winning on its own, you really don't need multiples of either in the main to tutor for. Also by boarding one of each combo piece it makes it very difficult to have your combo surgically extracted away from you.

Finally, this list is both fun and consistent. It doesn't rely on Marit Lage to win all your games for you, and instead strings together a lot of synergistic cards and effects and is completely capable of winning without ever making 20/20 indestructible fliers. While I'm sure there are other ways to consistently get a Marit Lage in play sooner or more consistently, I don't think there is much advantage to those strategies over something more balanced like this is. I have also been working on a BUG Depths list, however I don't have any playtesting or tournament data to back that up. With this announcement I would like to try and test and run Bant Depths list, which to me seems like one of the better routes to go with this deck, but until I can do some further testing I don't want to say too much on it.

[wolfstorm]

I am trying to come up with something more akin to its the fear, utilizing a intuition package.. first draft so far

2x Baleful Strix
3x Snapcaster Mage
1x Vendilion Clique

1x Engineered Explosives
4x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Counterbalance

4x Brainstorm
4x Abrupt Decay
1x Life from the Loam
1x Far // Away
4x Intuition
4x FoW
4x Jace

1x Academy Ruins
1x Dark Depths
1x Thespian's Stage
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Wasteland
1x Riptide Laboratory
2x Island
1x Forest
1x Swamp
4x Misty Rainforest
3x Polluted Delta
4x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea

[Richard Cheese]

I would actually like to see this combo find a place in a Deadguy shell, possibly a Vial-based list. Weathered Wayfarer, Mom, Vindicate, Bob...or maybe I just have a weak spot for bad midrange creature decks.

[Norm]

I would actually like to see this combo find a place in a Deadguy shell, possibly a Vial-based list. Weathered Wayfarer, Mom, Vindicate, Bob...or maybe I just have a weak spot for bad midrange creature decks.

I think we should look at the advantages/disadvantages of playing this combo in the following shell-styles:

Full combo
Aggro with combo finish
Midrange with combo finish
Control with combo finish

Going all in on your 20/20 means that you'll need to have answers for:
Karakas
Swords to plowshares
Abrupt Decay
Engineered Explosives
Terminus


We can't beat decay with permission so discard is pretty necessary. not of this world beats some of those cards but doesn't do anything when it's not ensuring your win-con actually wins the game, and cards like that aren't typically fantastic (although in the case of hive mind they still work)

Additionally, vines of vastwood deals with a lot of those answers. Other fragile decks like infect are all-in on a single creature and looking at their lists for answers to spot removal could be informative.

If you can't beat those cards consistently, then you're looking at playing a fair deck with combo finish, but I think that with all of this redundancy it's worth exploring a dedicated combo deck. If this deck does get popular, cards like repeal sure will be a beating.

[L0cke]

We can't beat decay with permission so discard is pretty necessary.


Decay is irrelevant because Marit Lage is indestructible

[ivanpei]

The 20/20 is indestructible so you don't have to worry about Decay and EE.

[Norm]

Oh yeah! I knew there was something that made this guy not completely horrible. ;)


EDIT: Anything else to go along with those posts in response to mine or am I just in for some teeth kicking for my error? I won't edit the post above, free bumps are always great for R&D posts.
EDIT2: That just makes not of this world even better

[Oiolosse]

For the green versions, maybe consider Sylvan Scrying? CMC 2 is reasonable for finding an uncounterable piece to the combo.

[Wanderlust]

I think Stage/Depths is pretty bonkers in Lands.dec: Exploration and Manabond speed you up, Tolaria West tutors for both halves of the combo, Life from the Loam tutors for both halves of the combo via dredging AND recurs both halves of the combo, you have a really solid Plan B in the form of full-on prison lockdown, and you play answers to just about everything (Wasteland > Maze of Ith, Engineered Explosives > all kinds of stuff, etc...) It's fast enough now to sometimes race fast combo game one, and it can now devote even more of its sideboard to those matchups. I've got a decklist up over here if anyone's interested:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?4020-Deck-43-Lands&p=726800&viewfull=1#post726800

[nevilshute]

In terms of protection, how do people feel about Spellskite? Maybe just as a sideboard option to take in vs Jace and StP decks.

[[SLAYER]chaos]

Do you think Teeg and Pridemage should still be in the maindeck with no GSZ?

[Barook]

In terms of protection, how do people feel about Spellskite? Maybe just as a sideboard option to take in vs Jace and StP decks.
Sylvan Safekeeper gets the job done as well and unlike Mom, he can also protect against Karakas.

[wolfstorm]

You can also technically scapeshift into the combo 4 lands or 3 with a sol land for a 20/20.. And I was thinking for modern Pandemonium + scapeshift would be funny to try.

[MaximumC]

You can also technically scapeshift into the combo 4 lands or 3 with a sol land for a 20/20.. And I was thinking for modern Pandemonium + scapeshift would be funny to try.

Give this man a cookie, because I think he's found one of the best ways to use this combo in Legacy.

Think about it. Scapeshift is now Natural Order, except it only needs 3 lands in play instead of a green dude to do its thing. It doesn't sac till it resolves, unlike Natural Order, so you're not out the land unless it resolves. You only need to run one copy of each DD and Stage in your deck for this to work, allowing you to run a totally standard WHATEVER deck until you go off.

This is going places.

EDIT - So, how to abuse this...

Well, you want to be running Wasteland to stop your opponent's Wastes, because that's the best answer to Depths. You also need to protect yourself from Swords to Plowshares or bounce spells, which will usually cost 1 or 2 mana. Given the speed at which Merit Lage kills, Duress is probably a fine choice here. Also, note that Scapeshift gets you the swamp you need when you need it during the combo (shift for Ancient Tomb, Swamp, Stage, Depths and you end up with a black mana to cast Duress before you make a monster). Countermagic might also be ok, particularly if you're going off very early with Grim Monoliths or whatever.

What if you went all-in? Sort of like how Hive Mind does?

Win Conditions (8)
4x Scapeshift
2x Dark Depths
2x Thespian's Stage

Search (10)
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
2x Crop Rotation

Alt Wn (2)
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Protection (12)
4x Spell Piece
4x Force of Will
4x Flusterstorm

Mana (22):
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Grim Monolith
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Tropical Island
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Island
1x Forest

[wolfstorm]

I think a stax shell would honestly abuse scapeshift better, not only does it fit the curve and have the sol lands to do a 3 land scapeshift into it but it has CotV to protect it from swords to plowshares, thespian can be ran as mishra's factory 5-8 as well

[KazinMtg]

What about something like Ali Antrazi's loam pox list? It already has hexmage/depths, and uses entomb to fetch them. This will just make the combo more consistent. Here's a copy of Antrazi's list for reference


Creatures (2)

1 Nether Spirit
1 Vampire Hexmage

Planeswalkers (4)

4 Liliana of the Veil

Lands (28)

3 Swamp
3 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cabal Pit
1 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Dark Depths

Spells (26)

3 Cursed Scroll
1 Darkblast
4 Entomb
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Innocent Blood
3 Life from the Loam
1 Raven's Crime
4 Smallpox
4 Thoughtseize

Sideboard
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Coffin Purge
3 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip
2 Spinning Darkness
2 Duress
1 Innocent Blood
1 Maelstrom Pulse

[adrieng]

ok sry wrong post if it works the deck is huge ;

; thought the manabase should be bayou +10 fetch (I am testing a budget version)

4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Crop Rotation
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Swamp
3 Forest
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Pithing Needle
4 Expedition Map
4 Overgrown Tomb
3 Woodland Cemetery
2 Twilight Mire
1 Duress
SB: 3 Bojuka Bog
SB: 4 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 4 Abrupt Decay
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 1 Karakas

[Zinch]

This combo doesn't work, you can lock the thread.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=480021

I just bought thaspian's stage and dark depth, feel like ....

When someone told me it doesn't work.

It doesn't work now. It will work the 13th of july:

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/248e

[Mr. Froggy]

I don't understand the combo. How does it work?

[Justin]

I don't understand the combo. How does it work?

You control both Dark Depths and Thespian's Stage. You activate TS's ability to copy DD. TS becomes a DD with no counters on it. DD gets ten ice counters when it enters the battlefield, but since TS is copying DD and not entering the battlefield, it gets no counters. Under the new legend rule, state based effects are checked and you now control two legendary lands of the same name and must put one of them into your graveyard. You get rid of the original DD with counters on it and keep the TS version with no counters. You may then sac it to put a Marit Lage token on the battlefield.

[Zupponn]

You guys got a plan vs Blood Moon?

[Norm]

You guys got a plan vs Blood Moon?

A lot of the decks are BG, just float the mana and Abrupt Decay after resolution. Oh, and three drops are pretty easy to remove with targeted discard, which is also very popular in these builds. Not that big of a deal, really.

[Amon Amarth]

You guys got a plan vs Blood Moon?

Ray of Revelation is pretty sweet. Easy to tutor up with Intuition or if you dredge into it as well.

[Valarne]

I like to keep it simple and efficient, and I think the chance of failure is quite big if one tries to be too linear. Below is a suggestion towards an all-round good list, that offers many tutor-targets, and which should be able set up the combo pretty easily. I cut the fourth Wish because I don't wanna get too clunky, maybe that's wrong. Some of the cute targets in the board should probably be cut for 3 Abrupt Decays, but hey :)

Junk Depths
4 Deathrite
4 Dark Confidant
4 Mother of Runes
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Living Wish
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn
3 Liliana
4 Swords to Plowshares
23 land: 1 Depths, 1 Thespians Stage, 1 Karakas, 3 Wasteland + god nonbasic mana for the rest.
SB:
1 Depths
1 Thespians Stage
1 Karakas (Decay?)
1 Maze of Ith
1 Wasteland
1 Tower of the Magistrate (Decay?)
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Faerie Macabre (Decay?)
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Pithing Needle (Wasteland, Sneak Attack, SDT, Vial etc.)

[Deckerator]

Hey maybe you can put 1x Vampire Hexmage into the board as a wish target?

Mainboard: 3x Vampire Hexmage
Sideboard: 1x Vampire Hexmage maybe cut the gatekeeper

[xifre]

Hey maybe you can put 1x Vampire Hexmage into the board as a wish target?

Mainboard: 3x Vampire Hexmage
Sideboard: 1x Vampire Hexmage maybe cut the gatekeeper

Have you guys considered hex parasite? It's easier to play.

Hex Parasite
Mana Cost:
1
Converted Mana Cost:
1

Types:
Artifact Creature — Insect
Card Text:
Variable ColorlessPhyrexian Black: Remove up to X counters from target permanent. For each counter removed this way, Hex Parasite gets +1/+0 until end of turn. (Phyrexian Black can be paid with either Black or 2 life.)

In addition to your marit lage, you still have a beater..

Just my opinion.. :)

[Valarne]

@Hex Parasite: Do you think it is competetive to sink 10 mana into the Parasite in order to get a Marit Lage? It's a beater, but...

[bruizar]

@Hex Parasite: Do you think it is competetive to sink 10 mana into the Parasite in order to get a Marit Lage? It's a beater, but...

Before you discount it, tribket mage can grab hex parasite and parasite+tribket mage can deal 7/8 damage the following turn while also eing able to kill liliana and jace or reducing aether vials. You can also grab pithing needle, but hex parasite is much more aggressive and can also pump itself with dark depths. An added bonus wpuld be sumon ing a 20/20.

[alderon666]

The X mana requirement of hex parasite refers to the number of counters on a permanent. Thus, if you have Dark Depths with ice counters on it, all you have to do is to pay black or 2 life and the X counters on a permanent.

Wrong!

The cost is: (black/2 life) and X mana. The effect is: remove up to X counters of target permanent, X being the amount you paid.

If it was like you said it would read something like: (black/2 life) and remove any amount counters from a permanent you control: Hex Parasite gets +1/0 for each counter removed this way.

[xifre]

Wrong!

The cost is: (black/2 life) and X mana. The effect is: remove up to X counters of target permanent, X being the amount you paid.

If it was like you said it would read something like: (black/2 life) and remove any amount counters from a permanent you control: Hex Parasite gets +1/0 for each counter removed this way.

Ok thanks for the clarification! My bad. It's slow for the combo but still disruptive in some point. Not as good as I thought.

[slave]

I've been playing around with this a G/B version;

3 Hexmage (+1 in the side)
4 DRS
2* Birds of Paradise (or Sylvan Safekeeper)

(21 Lands)
3 Dark Depths (+1 in the side)
2 Thespian's Stage (+ ditto)
4 Bayou
8 Fetches
2 Swamp, 1 Forest
1 Wasteland (+1 in the side, for Karakas :mad:)

4 Living Wish
3* Crop Rotation
3* Sylvan Scrying
1* Life from the Loam
4* Not of this World

3 Thoughtsieze
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3* Cabal Therapy
2* Hymn to Tourach
1 Damnation :laugh:

* = numbers not finalised yet.

Pretty happy so far. The discard really helps to buy time against a lot of decks, as does DRS against graveyard & snapcaster.
Therapy is one of my fave cards, so far it works well with mana-dorks.
Damnation just cos. It rocks.

I'm gonna run this deck soon at a meet. I don't expect too much land-destruction, but this deck may change that! LOL.
See how it goes.

=========================================================================================

On another idea, I'm gonna try running a list with White, for Flickering Ward, or simply include a full 8 manadorks for mana of any colour.
The ward wouldn't just be for Lage either, you could block with a Bird of Paradise for a while too....

[apple713]

first off, i haven't play tested this deck at all, but conceptually its broken. Here is why

you are playing a combo deck, that is uncountable.
Your combo requires only 2 cards.
There are more ways to search for you combo than any other combo you could assemble.
You can build a deck that consists only of instant speed cards that can win you the game.
There are so few cards that are in the metagame that could actually disrupt you.

It should be more consistent than other combo decks, and allow for more defense to protect your combo.


The wheel of magic
Aggro>control
Control>combo
combo>aggro

Depths>all...
You can play more counterspells / protection than traditional control decks so your matchup against other combo decks should be superior.
you are playing combo so your matchup against aggro should be no problem
Since control decks cannot counter your combo they can only STP, karakas, or terminus it you should have saved all your counterspells for those...

Threats this deck has to answer

Maze of Ith (43 lands, Maverick)
Karakas (miracles, Maverick, Stoneblade, death and taxes, 43 lands)
wasteland (Jund, merfolk, Team America, Maverick, Death and Taxes, Goblins)
Vensur shaper savant
sting scourger


Swords to Plowshares (miracles, maverick, stoneblade, death and taxes)
Pithing needle (naming thespian stage)
Humility
Ensnaring Bridge (g2 of 43 lands, burn, some stone blade)
Blood Moon (not sure this is even being play in anything popular right now, id imagine burn, dragon stompy)
Diabolic Edict (have not seen it in any jund lists or anything that is top 8'ing)
Flying creatures (delver, aven minscensor, vendilion clique) These just delay you a turn


Things you don't have to worry about

discard (there are no discard spells that can discard lands, with exception of hymn cause its random and enroach)
counterspells (can't counter land drops, and they'll have to have a lot of back up to get their swords to plowshares through)

This is unbelievable because discard and counterspells are typically the only things combo is concerned about.

If i centered the deck around just the depths thespian stage combo i would run UG

yall remember blue is the best color right? Also it has more cantrips than any other color / tutors. However, For this deck tutoring for a land doesnt get any easier than crop rotation.

4 crop rotation
4 depths
4 stage

4 brainstom
4 ponder
2 impulse (dig deep)
2 intuition
1 life from the loam

4 spell pierce (maybe dispel is better cause your only worried about swords?)
4 stifle (wasteland is only real threat here since the combo is uncounterable)
4 force of will
2 misdirection (for STP, Edict)
2 counterspell

4 wasteland
4 tropical island
4 misty rainforest
4 flooded strand
2 island
1 forest


IDK, this draft seems lack luster since the cards you are worried about are lands mainly and can be stopped with pithing needle. However running pithing needle main seems bad.

I dont have a sideboard in mind cause its 2am but i would imagine it would strengthen your matchups against death and taxes, stoneblade, 43 lands and maverick. They seem to be major threats.

The other smart idea i had as a version for this deck is putting it in a stax shell (god i love stax shell)
29 spells

4 Chalice of the void
4 mox diamond
3 Crucible
1 life from the loam
4 intuition
4 nether void (delay opponent and still play your combo)
3 trinisphere
3 propaganda
3 vampire hexmage

31 lands
2 maze of ith
1 academy ruins
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient tomb
2 City of traitors
4 dark depths
4 thespian stage
2 polluted delta
3 underground sea
1 tropical island
3 urborg tomb of yawgmoth
1 island


what yall think?

[Grollub]

I don't understand the reasoning behind going all cute and build creatures and multiple colors into the deck when you can just simply go strictly mono blue control with a superior win condition than traditional. Going pure blue it'd be so easy to dig for the combo and protect it. As I always do when brewing I've brainstormed up a list of cards that'd work in such a list:


INTUITION'S INTUITION:

Because I am broken -
Jace, the mind sculptor

Combo -
Dark Depths
Thespian's Stage

Draw/Search -
Intuition
Thirst for Knowledge
Artificer's Intuition
Sensei's Divining Top
Brainstorm
Expedition Map

Utility -
Life from the Loam

Control da game -
Devastation Tide
Counterbalance
Echoing Truth
Pithing Needle
Repeal
Engineered Explosives
Chalice of the Void

Counters -
Force of Will
Daze
Spell Pierce
Dispel

Mana -
Mox Diamond

Utility Lands - (U/G + CL)
Seat of the Synod
Tree of Tales
Academy Ruins

Lands - (+ Thespian's Stage)
Tropical Island
Misty Rainforest
Polluted Delta
Scalding Tarn
Island
Forest


For obvious reasons there's not space for all of them, but there's some nice synergies:

Artificer's Intuition would be capable of fetching not only the combo (through Expedition maps), it'd also provide an execellent engine for controling the board and provide constant shuffling for a counterbalance.
Intuition can find the combination straight up with Loam/Depth/Stage -- again Artificer's can find the needed green mana, or you could just rely on a fetchland.
Fitting in board control and counter magic seems to me vastly superior to being "cute". I'd consider the deck as an up-to-date Trix list, with the advantage of being colorless and uncounterable -- not losing to Krosan's Grip is also a nice evolution.

Another completely different idea could be a Cloud Post list as Stage can swap to it and provide massive amounts of mana in case playing out Emrakul would be better than Marit Lage.

Since my original view completely differs from what I've seen thus far in this thread, "Hey, this is a better Trix", I wanted to share my initial thoughts. :-)

Regarding the random Daze, I always makes my 61st card in any deck I play with Islands a Daze -- everyone at my local MTG cribs know this and it's become a tradition.

[Ennel_Pat]

I'm also breweing something in BG/UG/U. Currently MUC seems nice since you can play the combo without the fear of counters through Tolaria West and can win from other combo decks by out-countering them :)

I've come up with something like (not figured out cardamounts yet :))

Snapcaster Mage - Replay Counters/Cantrips
Kira, Great Glass Spinner - Protect the Combo Token
Vendillion Clique - Against Combo
Realmwright - Mana fixing for so many colorless land

Force of Will - Counter
Counterspell - Counters
Spell Pierce - More counters
Stifle - Against Wasteland, Karakas, Jace
Jace, the Mind Sculptor - Alternate Win
Brainstorm - Combo searcher
Ponder - Combo searcher
Standstill - Card advantage

Dark Depths - Combopiece 1
Thespian's Stage - Combopiece 2
Tolaria West - Tutor cannot be countered
Mishra's Factory - Alt slow win
Wasteland - Waste wastelands :)
Blue Fetch - Fetch
Islands - Anti Blood Moon

Side Board could carry Phyrexian Dreadnought as Suprise wincon.

Also thinking about Counter/Top.

[apple713]

another idea, cause this combo is so versatile

Mono Black Pox

fits extremely nicely in here

the list would look something like


35 cards

4 chalice of the void
4 mox diamond *
4 vampire hexmage
3 liliana of the veil
4 sinkhole
4 small pox
4 pox
4 nether void
1 the abyss
3 crucible of worlds


25 lands

4 wasteland
4 urborb tomb of yawgmoth
6 swamp
2 mishras factory
4 thespian stage
4 dark depths




Chalice and land destruction (sinkhole wasteland smallpox and pox) solve 90% of your problems maindeck. check my previous post for problems.

nether void is great cause it buys lots of time and slows other decks down while not slowing your combo. Your combo is also immune to the abyss. Hexmage in here makes sense cause being black you have no outs to pithing needle other than chalice. Also speeds up the combo and provides alternate routes.

*(traditionally im against mox diamond in pox cause it creates further card disadvantage in a game of close resources but you have so many extra lands because of your combo you can now do something with the extra copies, also speed up into the combo)

[KazinMtg]

If you're going to go the pox route, why not go loam pox so you can recur your lands in a pinch?

[apple713]

If you're going to go the pox route, why not go loam pox so you can recur your lands in a pinch?

Mana base is already shakey and is loam better than crucible here? Maybe cause you can use it to dredge your combo into grave as a tutor?

[MaximumC]

I don't understand the reasoning behind going all cute and build creatures and multiple colors into the deck when you can just simply go strictly mono blue control with a superior win condition than traditional. Going pure blue it'd be so easy to dig for the combo and protect it. A

INTUITION'S INTUITION:

Because I am broken -
Jace, the mind sculptor

Combo -
Dark Depths
Thespian's Stage

Draw/Search -
Intuition
Thirst for Knowledge
Artificer's Intuition
Sensei's Divining Top
Brainstorm
Expedition Map

Utility -
Life from the Loam

Control da game -
Devastation Tide
Counterbalance
Echoing Truth
Pithing Needle
Repeal
Engineered Explosives
Chalice of the Void

Counters -
Force of Will
Daze
Spell Pierce
Dispel

Mana -
Mox Diamond

Utility Lands - (U/G + CL)
Seat of the Synod
Tree of Tales
Academy Ruins

Lands - (+ Thespian's Stage)
Tropical Island
Misty Rainforest
Polluted Delta
Scalding Tarn
Island
Forest



In this sort of build, wouldn't you be better suited to running only a few of each win condition and just have Scapeshift? Intuition -> Map -> One piece is a slow build to the combo, and since you're planning to play a long control game anyway, why not just have the win in a single card?

I'm thinking something like this:

Combo (3):
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian Stage

Tutor (4):
4 Scapeshift

Dig (4):
4 Brainstorm

Countermagic (13)
4 Spell Pierce
2 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell

Board Control (13)
3 Devestation Tide
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
3 Oblivion Ring

Lands'n'mana (23 other than Tomb)

[Grollub]

In this sort of build, wouldn't you be better suited to running only a few of each win condition and just have Scapeshift? Intuition -> Map -> One piece is a slow build to the combo, and since you're planning to play a long control game anyway, why not just have the win in a single card?
The primarily reasoning for using Artificer's is more-so for it's multi-functional uses. It can enable the combo by finding the Maps, albeit slow. However, it offers great versatility, tons of shuffling for Counter Balance and easily improving the filtering of Top and Brainstorm. At the least, that was the idea -- haven't had time to try it yet, so it may very well be a too slow route.

What I personally don't like about the Scapeshift combo is it requires two green mana, which means being heavy blue can pose an issue in regards to casting the spell -- the Scapeshift route I believe would be better suited in maybe a more traditional lands.dec list? Above all, I love all the innovative lists! :D

I love how flexible this combo is, however it is also why I'm sort of concerned about wether or not it might be banned out; but I suppose time will tell -- an uncounterable combo is in itself scary.

[Ennel_Pat]

I have tested a BG and UG build against DeathBlade and I think this is one of the toughest matchups because they have so many mainboard answers like: Karakas,Jace 2.0, Swords, Wastelands, Discard/Counters and DRS. Side they can play Surgical Extractions. With an early Batterskull you need multiple Marit Lage attacks as they tend to have 20+ lifes when the token comes into play. I lost with both versions, but the UG version felt more resiliant.

[Grollub]

I have tested a BG and UG build against DeathBlade and I think this is one of the toughest matchups because they have so many mainboard answers like: Karakas,Jace 2.0, Swords, Wastelands, Discard/Counters and DRS.
This is exactly why I'm advocating experimenting with an Artificer's build, as it'd provide easy access silver bullets (which aren't dead in any match up) to answer the threats to the combo; I don't think brute speed is the solution as despite easily activated the combo is prone to a certain subset of cards.

[apple713]

This is exactly why I'm advocating experimenting with an Artificer's build, as it'd provide easy access silver bullets (which aren't dead in any match up) to answer the threats to the combo; I don't think brute speed is the solution as despite easily activated the combo is prone to a certain subset of cards.

artificer's build requires too many steps...and only accompishes what crop rotation does in 1 card...

[Grollub]

artificer's build requires too many steps...and only accompishes what crop rotation does in 1 card...
How do you protect your combo and the board with Crop Rotation? I'm not too keen on Crop Rotation, it requires you to have 5 lands when using it as a tutor for a combo part and is basically a dead card if you have drawn the parts.


EDIT:
I do think however, Crop Rotation would have great potential in a list design to utilize it for more than finding combo pieces (alongside friends like Scapeshift), but that'd result in a completely different style of deck and philosophy.
-- Just realized you probably wasn't thinking about cramming it into a heavy MUCish list. ;)

[bruizar]

i don't think a dedicated deck is a good idea. If this combo becomes widespread, it should not be more than an alternative win condition because blood moon will just own you if its your only way to win. Blood moon is going to be in every control deck (UWr).

[HammafistRoob]

i don't think a dedicated deck is a good idea. If this combo becomes widespread, it should not be more than an alternative win condition because blood moon will just own you if its your only way to win. Blood moon is going to be in every control deck (UWr).

Holy shit you are retarded.

[Ennel_Pat]

This is the list I'm most content with now:

4x Deathrite Shaman --Mana dork
4x Sylvan Safekeeper --Token protector (maybe switch these for Simic charm to also make your lands hexproof)
3x Snapcaster Mage
11x

4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
4x Force of Will
3x Counterspell
3x Spell Pierce
4x Stifle
4x Crop Rotation
2x Life from the Loam
27x

3x Dark Depths
2x Thespian's Stage
3x Wasteland
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Scalding Tarn
3x Tropical Island
1x Underground Sea
2x Island
22x

SB not decided yet but thinking about something like:

3x Surgical Extraction
3x Carpet of Flowers --Mana Accelerator=faster combo enabler
2x Ground Seal --Against DRS, Surgical Extraction (Need to change mainboard DRS into BoP when playing ground seal)
3x Pithing Needle --Wasteland/Karakas/Jace etc..
2x Engineered Explosives -- Against aggro/tokens
2x Phyrexian Dreadnought/Gilded Drake -- Alt Combo/Combo Stealer

Maybe petrified fields can be considered somewhere against wasteland or instead use Simic Charms.

[apple713]

How do you protect your combo and the board with Crop Rotation? I'm not too keen on Crop Rotation, it requires you to have 5 lands when using it as a tutor for a combo part and is basically a dead card if you have drawn the parts.


EDIT:
I do think however, Crop Rotation would have great potential in a list design to utilize it for more than finding combo pieces (alongside friends like Scapeshift), but that'd result in a completely different style of deck and philosophy.
-- Just realized you probably wasn't thinking about cramming it into a heavy MUCish list. ;)



if you draw the parts to your combo, you will have wasted cards... but thats typically not an issue, because you have your combo and you are going to win.

since crop rotation replaces the land you don't need 5 lands, so im not really sure i understand what you are talking about

turn 3 you have 3 tropical islands in play, and at the end of their turn you cast crop rotation, sacrifice 1 tropical island to get a thespian stage. on your 4th turn you drop a dark depths, tap your 2 remaining tropical islands, and your stage to make the 20/20 and win.....

[bruizar]

Holy shit you are retarded.

Right, thanks for your constructive feedback. Since this site isn't moderated at all I'll lower my standards to yours and wish that you just delete your account and life.


edit:
Goodluck getting owned by Blood Moon / Ensnaring Bridge / Repeal / Swords to Plowshares / Diabolic Edict / Echoing Truth / Venser, Shaper Savant / Waterfront Bouncer or a quick pithing needle shithead.

[L0cke]

How do you protect your combo and the board with Crop Rotation?

If you crop rotate for a one-of Sejiri Steppe you can get around swords/path/jace bounce/everything that kills the actual token besides an edict.

[HammafistRoob]

Right, thanks for your constructive feedback. Since this site isn't moderated at all I'll lower my standards to yours and wish that you just delete your account and life.


edit:
Goodluck getting owned by Blood Moon / Ensnaring Bridge / Repeal / Swords to Plowshares / Diabolic Edict / Echoing Truth / Venser, Shaper Savant / Waterfront Bouncer or a quick pithing needle shithead.

Haha thanks for the laugh man. Pointing out cards that hurt a strategy is fun! You forgot Wasteland

Just because cards that are good against a combo exist, does not mean that said combo cannot be overpowered. Every card you mentioned can be either answered or played around in one way or another.

[apple713]

Right, thanks for your constructive feedback. Since this site isn't moderated at all I'll lower my standards to yours and wish that you just delete your account and life.


edit:
Goodluck getting owned by Blood Moon / Ensnaring Bridge / Repeal / Swords to Plowshares / Diabolic Edict / Echoing Truth / Venser, Shaper Savant / Waterfront Bouncer or a quick pithing needle shithead.

half of these cards arnt played in legacy and many of them not widely played at all....

Waterfront Bouncer - are u fucking serious
Diabolic Edict - people still play this...maybe they dont know about liliana....
pithing needle - if people played this survival wouldnt have gotten banned
Repeal - is this even played in modern?

the rest are found in the same deck - miracles / stone blade
....so i'll take one bad matchup which isnt even that bad to crush the format!

[bruizar]

half of these cards arnt played in legacy and many of them not widely played at all....

Waterfront Bouncer - are u fucking serious

which is a merfolk, will get played if dark depths goes anywhere. THE MERFOLK VERSION OF STINGSCOURGER. also, spreading seas in that deck.



Diabolic Edict - people still play this...maybe they dont know about liliana....

Will get played over other removal because liliana is sorcery speed thus can't do anything against eot marit late. Could also be far // away.



pithing needle - if people played this survival wouldnt have gotten banned

People do play this, it didnt work against survival because they would activate for harmonic sliver in response you idiot. Also, fauna shaman.



Repeal - is this even played in modern?

Err, this is a legacy forum. Also, dark depths is banned in modern you scrub.



the rest are found in the same deck - miracles / stone blade
....so i'll take one bad matchup which isnt even that bad to crush the format!

blood moon: UR painter, Imperial painter, red mud variants, UWr, dragon stompy. p.s. blood moon also kills jund and other death rite shaman dependent decks.

ensnaring bridge - mud variants / stax variants / UR painter variants

Swords to Plowshares - 80% of the format

echoing truth - finds a spot in decks like high tide and show and tell variants




Dark Depths will be so ubiquitous that maindeck answers will find its way into the top tier decks. This is why you can't fuck around with your cute crop rotation shenanigans and rely solely on dark depths.

IF you do go that route, go for artificer's intuition since you can grab explosives to deal with bridge, needle and blood . and even then, for the love of god, run some creatures / jace / ttezzeret.


You go crush the format dude. Omniscience is faster, Sneak Attack kills you, TES and other storm variants are faster, belcher is faster elves is faster, blade decks destroy you, miracle decks destroy you, deathrite shaman decks run a playset of wastelands always, RUG runs stifle and wasteland and submerge (since you run crap rotation), death&taxes runs plowshares, karakas, mangara and mom+flyer, maverick runs wastelands, maze of ith, their own dark depths, swords to plowshares, karakas and knight of the reliquary / weathered wayfarer, pox runs sinkhole, smallpox, wasteland so you won't even get up to the mana to activate your thespian stage even if you do get to keep your combo painter decks run blood moon or ensnaring bridge. I can go on for ever. Even fucking enchantress runs spreading seas / elephant grass / solitary confinement / humility. A dedicated marit lage deck didnt even work in extended, they played thopter foundry next to it.

[.Ix]

While I agree that a dedicated Depths/Stage deck is not the best use of this combo, I really don't think a dedicated deck will be as bad as you think it is, bruizar. How easy is it to deal with a one turn clock, really? Even if the opponent runs Swords or something, he HAS to have it when you make the token while you have no protection. It's also much harder to deal with EOT, and even worse if you can pull off the combo more than once after it's been answered. I'm sure you're aware that Vault Key is still a really ubiquitous combo in Vintage, even with all the maindeck Grudges, Repeals, Decays, and other hate cards. Even if you were right, and it ended up being a terrible and eventually unplayable concept, I'd rather have people be encouraged to find the best build of this deck ASAP.

[bruizar]

While I agree that a dedicated Depths/Stage deck is not the best use of this combo, I really don't think a dedicated deck will be as bad as you think it is, bruizar. How easy is it to deal with a one turn clock, really? Even if the opponent runs Swords or something, he HAS to have it when you make the token while you have no protection. It's also much harder to deal with EOT, and even worse if you can pull off the combo more than once after it's been answered. I'm sure you're aware that Vault Key is still a really ubiquitous combo in Vintage, even with all the maindeck Grudges, Repeals, Decays, and other hate cards. Even if you were right, and it ended up being a terrible and eventually unplayable concept, I'd rather have people be encouraged to find the best build of this deck ASAP.

It's good that you refer to vintage because I think that this will indeed be played like time vault / voltaic key. In vintage, you do not have dedicated vault key decks (probably because you would end up decking yourself and because it is restricted, but still). You see vault/key played ALONGSIDE other win conditions such as Jace and dark confidant. Vaultkey gets shoved into most of the decks that can support it because its only 2 cards and you are running tinker / demonic tutor / vampiric tutor anyway.

My stance is that I think it is best when put in existing decks, such as 43-lands, a deck using artificer's intuition, turbo eldrazi, maverick, or a deck using intuition + loam. I do encourage people to search for the best dedicated deck, I'm simply trying to address the pitfalls that people must take into account because otherwise the attempt will needlessly fail.

In many cases, Dark Depths works like high tide in that it HAS to wait for its land drops (nonbasics instead of basics though). That is a serious drawback that people must consider since this means you will never have a faster goldfish than some of the more streamlined combo decks. The combo approach is therefore, by definition either subpar compared to belcher/tendrils based decks, or it is in fact, combo/control.

edit: I'm not hating on the combo. I actually have a vested interest in the performance of the card since I have a stack of foil dark depths here. I'll be testing dark depths out in MUD myself, hopefully to good results.

[JanoschEausH]

Did any of you thought about tha fact, that Marit Lage can be blocked by flying creatures? Lingering Souls, Bitterblossom, Flyer with Volrath's Stronghold. Good Luck attacking 20 Turns while your opponent draws live cards, while you keep drawing obsolete combo pieces.

[menace13]

Did any of you thought about tha fact, that Marit Lage can be blocked by flying creatures? Lingering Souls, Bitterblossom, Flyer with Volrath's Stronghold. Good Luck attacking 20 Turns while your opponent draws live cards, while you keep drawing obsolete combo pieces.
No. You're the actual only first one ever. It also dies to StP and, clearly I'm the only one who thought of that, and that makes decks bad. Glad we had this discussion.

[Ish]

Did any of you thought about tha fact, that Marit Lage can be blocked by flying creatures? Lingering Souls, Bitterblossom, Flyer with Volrath's Stronghold. Good Luck attacking 20 Turns while your opponent draws live cards, while you keep drawing obsolete combo pieces.

Why post on a deck forum just to troll. Let people discuss a deck of their interest... go away.

[Ingo T]

I am experimenting with the combo in a BG pox-list.
The list isn't focused on establishing the combo as fast as possible, but plays the slow disruptive game of a poxdeck, with the combo as a killcondition.
The list keeps cursed scroll and nether spirit, as alternate killconditions.
So far I like it very much because:

- pox is a very disruptive shell, that protects the combo.
- it already runs life from the loam to recur wasteland and your own smallpoxed lands
- it already has a focus on lands (manlands, wasteland, sometimes tabernacle, bojuka bog, cabal pit, ...) as these are cards that break the symmetry of (small)pox through life from the loam, and tutorpieces like crop rotation become multifunctional in this deck.

- the other way around, pox makes good use of the combo. In a poxdeck there is little room for finishers (usually nether spirit, the rack, cursed scroll or mishra's factory), and often these are insufficient to win the game, after heavily disrupring the opponent. The combo improves this.

This is the list im testing:

4 wasteland
2 dark depths
2 thespian's stage
3 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
4 bayou
4 verdant catacombs
2 bloodstained mire
1 cabal pit
4 swamp

2 crop rotation
2 thoughtseize
4 inquisition of kozilek
4 innocent blood
2 dismember
2 sensei's divining top
2 cursed scroll
2 life from the loam
4 smallpox
4 abrupt decay
2 hymn to tourach
3 liliana of the veil
1 nether spirit

Sideboard:
4 cabal therapy
1 dryad Arbor
2 surgical extraction
2 extirpate
1 bojuka bog
2 maelstrom pulse
2 pernicious deed
1 night of souls betrayal

Dark Depths and Thespian's Stage have taken the place of 4x mishra's factory.
So far, the list has performed quite good.
The intention is to disrupt the opponent until you are in topdeck mode, where you take control with Liliana of the Veil or Sensei's divining top, or to combo out. It performs very well against decks that run around 16 creatures, as it runs enough creaturekill to reliably kill everything that's played (Aggro BUG, Jund, RUG). The combo improves the matchup against combodecks, as you have a fast way to kill before they combo off.
It performs less against decks with many creatures like goblins or Maverick, of decks with card advantage (like shardless BUG).
I haven't tested against stoneblade or UW Miracle.

I did encounter problems with cards that are played mainboard and weren't mentioned in this thread I think:
Jace the Mindsculptor and Liliana of the Veil.
They are problematic because they can bounce or sac the combo turn after turn, and this deck isn't geared towards removing them (especially Jace, since he's decay-proof). Maelstrom pulse is in the sideboard to help this problem a bit.

[Fatal]

@Ingo T

Use Sage at end of turn to generate token all plainwalkers can be used only on sorcery speed..- problem resolved.

[Ingo T]

@Ingo T

Use Sage at end of turn to generate token all plainwalkers can be used only on sorcery speed..- problem resolved.

So simple, I should have thought of it myself... thanx :smile:

[TheG]

sorry guys, but vesuva in't a good replacement/abbianation to thespian stage?? ETB triggers and no mana is wasted in combo, delicious with crop rotation! did i miss something'?

[Zinch]

sorry guys, but vesuva in't a good replacement/abbianation to thespian stage?? ETB triggers and no mana is wasted in combo, delicious with crop rotation! did i miss something'?

Vesuva would enter the battlefield with the 10 counters on it, it doesn't work.

[MaximumC]

Holy shit you are retarded.

Hahaha... I mean, this post is probably banworthy and not productive and all that, but it made me laugh anyway. Shine on, you crazy, soon-to-be-banned diamond.

I'm starting to think this is a side-plan in another deck rather than a combo to dedicate your deck to as well. It's not so much that it Dies To Removal(TM), it's just that most decks will have an out because it's vulnerable to a wide range of things. You can't rely on steamrolling certain decks like Charbelcher or Omnitell can. However, this is a fantastic "oops I win" in a deck that is doing something else until the shields go down and you are able to combo out.

[apple713]

after goldfishing some of the options and playing against some other decks, depths needs to be placed in a very controled deck such as landstill or counterbalance since they are the most "controlling" decks that exist.

[Grollub]

after goldfishing some of the options and playing against some other decks, depths needs to be placed in a very controled deck such as landstill or counterbalance since they are the most "controlling" decks that exist.
I concur, this is also my initial results too after trying one of the more brute force'ish lists. What's peoples thoughts on sticking it into a lands.dec, it seems like a natural evolution which also keeps the traditional win conditions of a lands.dec while additing the potential to finish off a game nearly instantly should the opportunitet arise.

As Bruizar wrote earlier, I too agree it shouldn't be the deck's primarily and only focus.

[Baum]

Lands seems like a good shell for the combo. I think it's just wrong to play an all-in combo deck that can be stalled by Lingering Souls for four turns.

At the moment, I'm testing a controlish Junk Loam build with Stage/Depths as an alternate win besides Knight of the Reliquary and a manland. Just screw them with Chalice of the Void, Discard and Wasteland/Loam before making your 20/20. I'll post a list once I'm home from work.

[bruizar]

Not there yet but my list for now:


//Spellbombs
3 Counterbalance
2 Artificer's Intuition
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pithing Needle
1 Expedition Map
1 Engineered Explosives

//Planeswalkers
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 The Abyss

//Creatures
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Baleful Strix

//Spells
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will

//Marit Lage
1 Dark Depths

//Land / Mana 25
4 Mox Opal
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland or Dustbowl
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Karakas
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Seat of the Synod
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island or Tropical Island or Tundra
2 Island
1 Swamp


Still deciding which card to cut since its 61 cards now. Also still deciding whether or not I can make room for a singleton Shizo, Death's Storehouse to make Vendilion Clique and Marit Lage unblockable. If so, I may splash white for 2 Geist of Saint Traft since I can use expedition map to find Shizo and protect Geist.

//Sideboard, or something along those lines..
1 Lantern of Insight - vs Entreat the Angels
1 Pithing Needle - vs Pernicious Deed / Jace / Stoneforge Mystic, etc
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale - heavy aggro / tribal decks
1 Elixir of Immortality - vs Burn
3 of Night of Souls' Betrayal / Damnation / Perish / Nature's Ruin / Virtue's Ruin / Massacre / Engineered Plague
2 Extirpate - vs Ancient Grudge
3 or 4 of Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm or Red Elemental Blast
3 Vendilion Clique / Thoughtseize / Inquisition of Kozilek

[Ennel_Pat]

I too have come to the conclusoin that a dedicated Depths/Stage combo deck is not viable. There should really be another wincon besides the Marit Lage token.

After all I think it should be part of an existing deck as a side step. Lands/Maverick/Pox/The Rock/CounterTop/MUD could all run this combo on the side by just adding 1 or 2 Dark Depths/Thespian's Stage combi.

I still want to try a MUC shell with Jace 2.0 as alternate win, but have little doubt it could beat multicolor decks.

[Grollub]

I know this is an unproductive post, but I have to say that list looks so sexy Bruizar.

Do you have any initial testing and thoughts on it?

[apple713]

Not there yet but my list for now:
Still deciding which card to cut since its 61 cards now. Also still deciding whether or not I can make room for a singleton Shizo, Death's Storehouse to make Vendilion Clique and Marit Lage unblockable. If so, I may splash white for 2 Geist of Saint Traft since I can use expedition map to find Shizo and protect Geist.



cut vendilion, he doesnt flow with the rest of the deck. he dies to abyss and isnt an artifact. Since you are running black for discard his CIP effect is dwarfed by the other cards.

lantern seems like trash. vendilion clique is better vs miracles because after they trigger te miracle part of hte card and reveal it, you can clique in response so it is no longer in their hand to cast. Even if they draw another miracle on the v clique draw its the second card they drew that turn and is irrelevant.

Vclique in board is good vs combo decks to put them on a clock and disrupt their hand.

[Grollub]

cut vendilion, he doesnt flow with the rest of the deck. he dies to abyss and isnt an artifact. Since you are running black for discard his CIP effect is dwarfed by the other cards.

lantern seems like trash. vendilion clique is better vs miracles because after they trigger te miracle part of hte card and reveal it, you can clique in response so it is no longer in their hand to cast. Even if they draw another miracle on the v clique draw its the second card they drew that turn and is irrelevant.

Vclique in board is good vs combo decks to put them on a clock and disrupt their hand.
Lantern however can be found with Artificer's Intuition, I'd say it looks pretty good as a singleton in the board. :)

[apple713]

Lantern however can be found with Artificer's Intuition, I'd say it looks pretty good as a singleton in the board. :)

1 CMC spells get counterd all day against miracles... good luck landing it on turn 3 after you search for it. you're better off running 4v cliques in board to ensure u draw em. especially with the new legend rule theres not much downside.

also, they wont be casting a miracle card before turn 3 anyways

[blindspotxxx]

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=10927&iddeck=79812

Check this out for a Dark Depths deck

[bruizar]

I know this is an unproductive post, but I have to say that list looks so sexy Bruizar.

Do you have any initial testing and thoughts on it?

I have done some initial testing and have thought for a long time about the deck. The reason why this deck exists is because the tutoring power of artificer's intuition can set up some powerful game states and answer problematic match-ups. It's a mash-up of counterbalance and UB planeswalker. The problem of UB Planeswalker is that it is extremely vulnerable to Gaddock Teeg, and that it does not run Brainstorm but Chalice of the Void. Its manabase consists of sol lands, which I believe are a liability for the deck, but also what gives it its strength.

I do not use Sol Lands nor Chalice of the Void, so that I can run a more stable, coloured mana base and brainstorm. My replacement for Chalice of the Void is Counterbalance, which serves a similar function as Chalice of the Void, but is slightly different in its use. The omission of Chalice of the Void allows me to use Brainstorm, Sensei's Divining Top, black discard spells and trinkets with artificer's intuition.

I have also cut down on the number of planeswalkers. By being less artifact-centric, I reduce the amount of damage done by artifact hate. I could even sideboard a Welding Jar in dire situations, to provide some more protection from Abrupt Decay for cards such as pithing needle, or even regenerating a Baleful Strix. But I don't think this is needed. Another option is Cursed Scroll, which I still have to test. I sort of like it because it shuts down utility creatures really well.

Compared to a stock Counterbalance list, this list is a lot more aggressive because of Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas, but it doesn't overly rely on artifacts. Relic of Progenitus is there to interfere with Deathrite Shamans, Tarmogoyfs and Nimble Mongoose as well as having an answer to a game 1 dredge or reanimator match-up. Post board, a Nihil Spellbomb should come in which is to be used with Expedition Map into Academy Ruins to provide a graveyard sweeper every turn. This same cycle can set up be done for Engineered Explosives instead of Nihil Spellbomb, even though Explosives set on 2 destroys A.I. and Counterbalance.

I am light on 3-CC spells (Only clique) and therefore am thinking of including a Far // Away, which is great with Counterbalance and Force of Will and good against a flipped delver, nimble mongoose or Emrakul / Griselbrand, but I am not sure about it yet. It is probably not effective enough.

[Barook]

@bruizar: Why no Executioner's Capsule as tutor target? Seems too good to pass, especially with Academy once you have the mana available.

[bruizar]

I have played with Executioner's Capsule and although it is sort of nice, the drawback of nonblack and the 3 mana cost is pretty high. Not sure if I can find the space for it. `i usually just wish it was an Engineered Explosives (which I can set up to 4 easily and up to 5 with double mox opal).

[KntrellCL]

Im trying to build an "Aggro Rock" with Depths combo, it looks something like this:

Creatures [23]

Creatures Engine [12]

4 Bloodghast
4 Vengevine
4 Gravecrawler

Enabler Creatures [9]
3 Vampire Hexmage
2 Lotleth Troll
4 Lotus Cobra

Utility Creatures [2]
1 Shriekmaw
1 Eternal Witness

Spells [17]

3 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library
4 Entomb
4 Living Wish
1 Dark Blast
4 Innocent Blood/Abrupt Decay/Removal

Lands [21]

Mana Lands [14]
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Swamp
1 Forest

Manlands [2]
2 Mutavault

Utility Lands [4]
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Cycle Lands

Legendary Lands [1]
1 Dark Depths

[adrieng]

As a budget deck it seems quite good, (you should exchange ghost quarter for wasteland and forest+tomb for fetch+bayou) ;


Steely resolve is here to protect the avatar and can't be killed by jitte or stopped by phyrexian revoker.
4 Crop Rotation
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Vampire Hexmage
2 Ghost Quarter
4 Chrome Mox
4 Into the North
3 Snow-Covered Forest
2 Sylvan Library
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Pithing Needle
1 Forest
2 Birds of Paradise
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Steely Resolve
2 Expedition Map
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 3 Seal of Primordium
SB: 2 Dread of Night
SB: 1 Darkblast
SB: 4 Trinisphere
SB: 4 Duress

EDIT : Chrome mox + Into the north and sylvan library are awesome

EDIT2 : cut the birds they are not needed with into the north+chrome mox you are fast enough

EDIT 3 : reput two birds and added chalice of the void for combo and miracle

[evanmartyr]

How is foregoing living wish budget? Card is cheap.

[adrieng]

Living wish is bad, cause you lose two-three cards to the maindeck ; you dilute your sideboard (less cards for combo which is the problem of the deck) ; just for four cards maindeck. I dont like it. The main problem of the deck is omni show ; I haven't found a plan to beat it (8 discards + 3 seal of primordium is not enough). It can do random things such as protect you from surgical extraction but i don't like it. The deck beats shardless BUG, stoneblade, goblin, elves is 55-45,
tempo is 50-50, ANT is 50-50 (after side you are favored), Death and taxes is 50-50, maverick is slightly favorable, miracle is unfavorable. Omni show is the bad matchup of the deck ; couldn't find a way to beat it, without the white splash.

[adrieng]

A non budget deck would look like this and would rape the format :

4 Dark Depths
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Wasteland
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 Steely Resolve
4 Expedition Map
4 Vampire Hexmage
3 Into the north
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Crop Rotation
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Pithing Needle
2 Windswept Heath
SB: 2 Bojuka Bog
SB: 4 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 4 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 3 Seal of Primordium
SB: 1 Dread of Night
SB: 1 Karakas


It seems that into the north is a good card for the deck, have to try it. It fetches dark depth and put it into play.

[snorlaxcom]

A non budget deck would look like this and would rape the format

Getting ahead of ourselves. Good luck with show and tell decks if they are in your meta.

[Sr. Puntsalot]

I really like the Combo in a BUg shell.

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
1 Life from the Loam
2 Damnaton
3 Spell Pierce
3 Sensi's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
3 Thoughtseize
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Vampire Hexmage
2 Crop Rotation
3 Expedition Map
2 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Poluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Maze of Ith
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

SB
2 Flusterstorm
1 Life from the Loam
1 Bajuka Bog
2 Misdirection
1 Maestrom Pulse
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Damnation
1 Dark Blast
1 Massicare

It offers the CBT lock, with force and seize/pierce combo stands no chance. For the creature decks, damnation and decay. vs control, jace and tar pit plus countermagic. there are alternate win cons, tar pit/jace. loam adds some redundancy. the mana is ok, but i dont know if all 4 wastelands belong (im leaning toward no), and i would like to fit another win con, my first thought was deathrite or goyf.

[Nils Gutiérrez]

Hi everybody! in sunday i have a tournament and liked to play a dark depths deck. The deck has the BUG nic fit base some things to play the dark depths ! here is the list:


1 Primeval Titan
3 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
3 Trinket Mage
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Expedition Map
3 Living Wish
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 Life from the Loam
4 Brainstorm
1 Dryad Arbor
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Dark Depths
SB: 1 Thespian's Stage
SB: 1 Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Fleshbag Marauder
SB: 1 Vampire Hexmage
SB: 3 Negate
SB: 2 Simic Charm

What do you think?

[Combo Player]

Hi guys! I am testing from the first new of changes of rules a BG combo. The only win condition is DD because i wanted a new pure combo.

4 Crop Rotation
3 Dark Depths
3 Thespian's Stage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Vampire Hexmage
4 Life from the Loam
1 Worldly Tutor
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Living Wish
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Wasteland
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Maze of Ith
1 Savannah
2 Steely Resolve
4 Pithing Needle
3 Sylvan Scrying
SB: 1 Vampire Hexmage
SB: 1 Thespian's Stage
SB: 1 Dark Depths
SB: 1 Maze of Ith
SB: 2 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Wasteland
SB: 1 Viridian Shaman
SB: 4 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Spellskite

I play about 80 matches with the deck and I'm satisfied because is 50-50 with a big part of the meta. There are 3 MU very bad: Esperblade, S&S/Omnitell and Miracle.
Clock is 4-5 turn but sometimes third turn. The only protections are 4 Pithing Needle and 2 Steely Resolve, because there are basically 5 hate: Jace, Liliana, stp, Waste and Karakas. We stop 4 with needle and the lands with waste, stp are the best hate for our because we can make the combo another time without problems.

[adrieng]

Won a 32 person tornament, beating affinity 2-1 ; first game he kills me on turn four being nearly letal on turn three and i was on the draw had the turn four kill.
Second game i killed him tiurn three though vampire+dark depth removing his bloquer with golgari charm. Third game he had the turn five kill with bloquers but I had the turn four kill (ino the north) with seal for his bloquer. side : +3 seal +3 golgair charm - 5 shroud guy -1 expedition map
Beat UWR delver/geist 2-0 ; first game he has no pression just a single lavamancer. I had the turn one library turn three token he had the sword for it, I combo twice. Second game he has a turn three geist but I have a turn four safekeeper+ the combo. side +2 chalice -1 safekeeper -1 map
Beat merfolk 2-0 with submerge and phantsamal image side +2 seal -1 seal -1 steely resolve.
Beat jund 2-0 side +3 golgari charm+ 3 seal of primordium -6 shroud guy.
Concede to URG (submerge in sb) for the prices, but we played for fun and I won 2-1. Won game one easily, game two involved a missplay and me drawing three shroud guy, I played turn one mox+land into the north instead of needle on wasteland (cause I had two into the north), but the second one gets countered. I eat wasteland, and lost to two goyfs beatdown. I finish the game with hexmage in hand and an expedition map.
Won game 3, involving me trying to ghost quarter my forest to be submerge proof :P(him stifling) (he had the turn one delver turn two flip but no other pression) ; topdecking a crop and then comboing.

The list :

I am quite happy with it, wouldn't change anything even if I had bayou+fetches ; cause it makes you vulnerable to more things (wasteland on green can be a pain) and you need double bayou to hardcast the vampire. Didn't play any combo deck, but was somehow ready for it.

4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
4 Into the North
3 Chrome Mox
4 Sylvan Library
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Crop Rotation
3 Snow-Covered Forest
2 Ghost Quarter
4 Pithing Needle
4 Steely Resolve
6 Forest
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Vampire Hexmage
3 Expedition Map
3 Sylvan Safekeeper
SB: 3 Seal of Primordium
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 4 Trinisphere
SB: 3 Golgari Charm
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void

[TheSleeper]

adrieng: Love your list, for a dedicated combo list it looks really cool.

I wanted to share what I'm tinkering with, UG DreadLage:

4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Force of Will
4x Stifle
2x Trickbind
2x Dispel
2x Crop Rotation

4x Delver of Secrets
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4x Dark Depths
1x Forest
7x Island
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Thespian's Stage
4x Tropical Island

Most choices should be self-explanatory. Basically I wanted a high-threat density; the deck ramps up in power over time. Delver, Goyf, Dreadnought, Jace, Marit Lage.

I'm still working on a Sideboard. Unsure which (if any) Green SB cards would slot in. Any thoughts appreciated.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
4 Into the North
3 Chrome Mox
4 Sylvan Library
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Crop Rotation
3 Snow-Covered Forest
2 Ghost Quarter
4 Pithing Needle
4 Steely Resolve
6 Forest
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Vampire Hexmage
3 Expedition Map
3 Sylvan Safekeeper
SB: 3 Seal of Primordium
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 4 Trinisphere
SB: 3 Golgari Charm
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void

I like your list, especially Ghost Quarter. It's nice that you may "waste" their Karakas even under Needle naming Wasteland...
Any troubles because of zero Swamps?

[adrieng]

I like your list, especially Ghost Quarter. It's nice that you may "waste" their Karakas even under Needle naming Wasteland...
Any troubles because of zero Swamps?

Actually, the only black card you want to cast is vampire hexmage, so it is safer to play basic lands and urborg tomb (you hardly have two black sources).

Yeah, I might split ghost quarter into one ghost/one wasteland but it also allows you to destroy your forest to be submerge proof, or to fetch a forest when you don't have it.

I did an other tornament this week end going 3-2 losing to death and taxes and maverick, beating BUG tempo, merfolk and RUG delver.

I added a maze of ith, but maverick is hard because of Kotr which gave them the wastelock. I have been tinkeing about cursed totem and maybe dread of night.

We don't have a lot of combo in our meta, so I'ld better cut the trinisphere, chalice are for burn/elves/miracle/Ant(bad matchup).

[Bed Decks Palyer]

True, one Swamp does nothing and two are too many.
I think double Quarter is better, you nearly always want to start with Needle->Waste.

[apple713]

Won a 32 person tornament, beating affinity 2-1 ; first game he kills me on turn four being nearly letal on turn three and i was on the draw had the turn four kill.
Second game i killed him tiurn three though vampire+dark depth removing his bloquer with golgari charm. Third game he had the turn five kill with bloquers but I had the turn four kill (ino the north) with seal for his bloquer. side : +3 seal +3 golgair charm - 5 shroud guy -1 expedition map
Beat UWR delver/geist 2-0 ; first game he has no pression just a single lavamancer. I had the turn one library turn three token he had the sword for it, I combo twice. Second game he has a turn three geist but I have a turn four safekeeper+ the combo. side +2 chalice -1 safekeeper -1 map
Beat merfolk 2-0 with submerge and phantsamal image side +2 seal -1 seal -1 steely resolve.
Beat jund 2-0 side +3 golgari charm+ 3 seal of primordium -6 shroud guy.
Concede to URG (submerge in sb) for the prices, but we played for fun and I won 2-1. Won game one easily, game two involved a missplay and me drawing three shroud guy, I played turn one mox+land into the north instead of needle on wasteland (cause I had two into the north), but the second one gets countered. I eat wasteland, and lost to two goyfs beatdown. I finish the game with hexmage in hand and an expedition map.
Won game 3, involving me trying to ghost quarter my forest to be submerge proof :P(him stifling) (he had the turn one delver turn two flip but no other pression) ; topdecking a crop and then comboing.

The list :

I am quite happy with it, wouldn't change anything even if I had bayou+fetches ; cause it makes you vulnerable to more things (wasteland on green can be a pain) and you need double bayou to hardcast the vampire. Didn't play any combo deck, but was somehow ready for it.

4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
4 Into the North
3 Chrome Mox
4 Sylvan Library
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Crop Rotation
3 Snow-Covered Forest
2 Ghost Quarter
4 Pithing Needle
4 Steely Resolve
6 Forest
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Vampire Hexmage
3 Expedition Map
3 Sylvan Safekeeper
SB: 3 Seal of Primordium
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 4 Trinisphere
SB: 3 Golgari Charm
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void

i really like whats going on in this list.

I am however 100% confused about the golgari charm. Additionally, i feel as though this deck could defiantly use scrying sheets as a 1 of. Also, all the forests should be snow covered, there is no reason not to. They count as basic lands.

I didnt like how clunky 4 sylvan libraries felt. They seem like a if bad shit happens, I'm gonna dig for answers. Its really good but never as a 4 of. Theres so many 2 drops that are more important than this that it gets last priority. I feel like mirri's guile might actually be better here, as a 2 of and cut the libraries all together.

If bad shit happens, loam seems like the card you want.

maybe -4 libraries -1 forest +2 loam +2 mirri's guile +1 scrying sheets?


The deck plays surprisingly well and im impressed but i feel like its coming in 1 turn late against other combo decks... think theres anything we can do to fix that? Exploration?!? <---- doesnt usually draw hate

[adrieng]

I didnt like how clunky 4 sylvan libraries felt. They seem like a if bad shit happens, I'm gonna dig for answers. Its really good but never as a 4 of. Theres so many 2 drops that are more important than this that it gets last priority. I feel like mirri's guile might actually be better here, as a 2 of and cut the libraries all together.

Actually, library is quite good against sword to plownshare. If they sword your marit lage you can draw 5 cards and combo out a bit later with library (against miracle it is quite good

because you want chalice @1 after side)


I have been thinking of mirri's guile but didn't test it, maybe i'll give it a try.

Yeah the basic lands should all be snow covered forest but I had only three and without scrying sheets it hardly matters. Also, I am not sure scrying sheets is worth

it with only 13 snow cards but why not ; could be good with that mirri's guile/sylvan library.

Golgair charm was for flying 1/1 (lingering souls etc...) and elf ; but I am now testing dread of night.

I don't think loam is worth it, there is too much grave hate maindeck (deathrite shaman mainly) and we have nothing to kill it.

I am testing maverick/death and taxes matchups, death and taxes is winnable but not maverick they have way too much hate in my testing (even with cursed

totem in sb), any idea ?

[apple713]

Actually, library is quite good against sword to plownshare. If they sword your marit lage you can draw 5 cards and combo out a bit later with library (against miracle it is quite good

because you want chalice @1 after side)


I have been thinking of mirri's guile but didn't test it, maybe i'll give it a try.

Yeah the basic lands should all be snow covered forest but I had only three and without scrying sheets it hardly matters. Also, I am not sure scrying sheets is worth

it with only 13 snow cards but why not ; could be good with that mirri's guile/sylvan library.

Golgair charm was for flying 1/1 (lingering souls etc...) and elf ; but I am now testing dread of night.

I don't think loam is worth it, there is too much grave hate maindeck (deathrite shaman mainly) and we have nothing to kill it.

I am testing maverick/death and taxes matchups, death and taxes is winnable but not maverick they have way too much hate in my testing (even with cursed

totem in sb), any idea ?

The problem is knight of reliquary. Combined with pridemage is for the needles it's bad. totem seems too specific. It also gets your hexmage. But steely resolve solves the targeting issues whether its karakas or maze.

Have you considered living wish? Cut 1 hexmage depths and stage for 3 main? It could also get you sb answers main.

Dread of night seems nice but I wish it effected all creatures. We still have other fliers to consider. Delver, clique, and bitter blossom.

Rug Delver was not as easy as I would have liked. wastelands, stifle, counterspells, submerge and a clock...


the more I play this deck, the more I like it. It's defiantly missing something to push it to that next level...maybe its in theoros


This deck wants to draw more cards when its looking for answers. It has all the answers main but it has trouble getting to them. Even with 4 sylvan librarys. I almost want to test dark confidant. My only thing is that he'll draw all the hate which might be good.

i dont like loam. feel like its too slow cause this deck wants to be fast. Im running with exploration right now and its nice but the multiples kill you late game cause its just a dead draw. 1 of couldnt hurt tho.

I have no idea about the sideboard but i dont think trini is necessary. Maybe it is cause combo is hard to beat and it improves our matchup there. It just doesnt help vs show and tell, which isnt good either.


RAWWWW this deck is so frustrating cause its got sooooo much potential. but the building process is solo ruff.

not of this world seems interesting here. its always gonna be free.

reanimator gives this deck trouble too.

this deck has very strange matchups. It has a lot of freebies but a lot of not great matchups too. It has an incredible amount of conistency and resilience but sometimes decks just have too much cause it plays no defense.

[apple713]

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=10927&iddeck=79812

Check this out for a Dark Depths deck

this deck is pretty sick. I've been testing it. It's a great blend of combo, control, and aggro. I added thespian stage to main and board for obvious reasons. I think that list is pre stage. There hasent been a deck like this since Survival. I'll be tinkering the list. I've noticed it has a lot of advantages over adrieng's list but it is slower. I find it to be a good blend tho. Being slower isnt necessarily bad because it turns your bad matchups into much better. You actually have more interactions then just trying to get your combo off before your opponent beats you.

I like it better as adrieng's list plays rather naked like belcher.

im on cockatrice testing it. lmk if your interested in playing

[Okapikid]

Heyall,
Looks like this thread is moving away from the all-in builds...but I'm a recovering belcher player :). That's my style so I'm still sticking with it.
Here's what I'm on at the moment:

4x thespians stage
4x dark depths
4x crop rotation
4x sylvan scrying
4x into the north
4x expedition map
4x pitching needle
4x ESG
4x steely resolve
4x not of this world (this card is actually incredible here)
3x chrome mox
2x lotus petal
4x snow covered forest
4x gemstone mine
3x ghost quarter
2x ancient tomb
1x okina
1x pendelhaven
*Gemstone/Okina/Pendelhaven are simply there to reduce the forest count (fight Submerge).
Only gotten a few games in so far, but I'm really liking the build. The hate is everywhere, but the deck is not only very fast, but it mulligans and recovers exceptionally well due to the innate and overwhelming focus/consistency.
The board is probably something like this:
4x Seal of Primordium
4x Chalice of the Void
1x Bojuka Bog
...then not sure. Maybe a tabernacle? Leylines? Howling Gale?
Anyone else still looking into/working on these types of builds here?
And yes, I'm aware of how good pithing needle is against me game 1 :)
Thanks for the input!

[Ingo]

A Jund color Lands-deck finished 17th at a starcitygames tournament.
It relied heavily on Depths-Stage as a wincon.
This is the link (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=57853).

The mana-disruptive controlstrategy of lands, combined with the swift wincon of Depths, he can switch from a manadenialplan to comboing out very well. Seems like a very strong build to me.

[apple713]

A Jund color Lands-deck finished 17th at a starcitygames tournament.
It relied heavily on Depths-Stage as a wincon.
This is the link (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=57853).

The mana-disruptive controlstrategy of lands, combined with the swift wincon of Depths, he can switch from a manadenialplan to comboing out very well. Seems like a very strong build to me.

doesnt lands get blown out by combo and grave hate strategies though? there are lots of them in the meta right now. seems like all the decks are running DRS or RIP Or some degenerate S&T combo.

[Ingo]

doesnt lands get blown out by combo and grave hate strategies though? there are lots of them in the meta right now. seems like all the decks are running DRS or RIP Or some degenerate S&T combo.

That's true, against combo, lands was too slow. But having a combo of their own (you can create the token T1 with a 5-card godhand like Urborg, Dark Depths, forest, Thespian's Stage, Manabond) improves the matchup a lot.
There's also gamble, which gives a decent chance of fetching specific hate T1.

There is a lot of maindeck gravehate in DRS, but PFire handles him well.
DRS main has the advantage that players sideboard less gravehate, and Dark Confidant is sided in against other gravehate.

[apple713]

I have been working on this in the rock thread. After much playtesting I have realized that while the deck has a heavy aggro element it really doesn't win via aggro and is more of a dedicated Depths combo. I will post here from now on. I have copied my two most meaningful posts here and deleted them in the rock tread. I apolagize for the confusion.



Ive been working on a list to incorporate dark depths. This is what ive come up with. The mainboard has been tested and I do not think it could be further improved but am open to suggestions. It is very very solid.


3x Vampire hexmage
3x mother of runes
3x thalia
4x deathrite shaman
4x dark confidant

4x crop rotation
4x thoughtseize
3x hymn to tourach
3x abrupt decay
3x path to exile
2x sylvan library

3x dark depths
3x thespian's stage
3x urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
2x wasteland
4x verdant catacombs
3x marsh flats
2x scrubland
1x savannah
2x bayou
1x karakas



Ive tried a number of different cards for the mainboaard and eventually cut them for the list above. Cards ive tried main include


Living wish
Into the north
Knight of the reliquary
Mirri's guile
Sensei's divining top
Sylvan scrying
Life from the loam
Swords to plowshares


Most of those cards are too slow, like knight of the reliquary, or are card disadvantage. Swords was removed hecause there is nothing worse than dying after attacking with a marit lage token because they were at 21 life.

A note on Mother of runes - is the most recent addition and solves many problems. Protects the token from almost all threats and can even push him through lingering souls tokens or other fliers. It also protects your important creatures like bob for card advantage and deathrite for mana fixing, thalia for combo.

A note on sylvan scrying - its card disadvantage and cradle and cabal dont get me any closer to the decks goal. The games the deck loses are to misplays which are very easy to do with this deck, and to decks that have a barrage of hate and not just 1 or 2 but like 4 or 5 and consecutively; swords, karakas, maze, lingering souls, wastelands, stifle. Obviously combo decks that get there faster, but thats why i run thalia and discard.

A note on - path vs swords...typically the creature I'm dealing with is small so 1-2 life isnt that big of an issue, but when we're talking about a 4/5 goyf or a batter skull then I'm really in trouble. Batter skulls life gain is hard enough to deal with, imagine if they gained another 4 life off the swords. If I'm using swords on the creatures it means that I need to slow you down. Also, the benefit from giving my opponent an additional land is probably not very beneficial. Im not playing a mana denial strategy. Thalia and Wasteland are included for other reasons.

The combo is fast, not Belcher fast but fast, I'll outline all the lines of play with it

T1 Urborg - ideally with a thought seize
T2 depths, hexmage -> win on t3

T1 urborg
T2 thespian stage
T3 Depths -> win on t4

T1 any land -> DRS
T2 thespian stage
T3 Depths -> win on t4

any 4 lands including stage and depths...usually a t5 win at latest if not disrupted.

Also keep in mind you can substitute and of those lands if you dont have them for crop rotation. So if you have a green and a crop rotation you can get your missing piece INSTANT SPEED (omg thats so important)

A note on Thalia - she is included strictly so I dont get blown out by combo decks. Since I can protect her with mother, that means that she'll not be answered easily by the other decks. The list of decks she affects is

High tide
ANT
TES
Belcher
ONMI-derp <----complete blow out if protected.
are there other combo's going on? enchantress....

S&T & other decks that cantrip, including rug, UR, miracles, UB tempo decks with stifle
Shardless (slows the cascade very minimally but still)

With her and discard package the combo matchups are not bad considering she plays nicely into the curve. T1 thought seize T2 thalia, T3 hymn, T4 combo

Now with all that said, I'm open to other options that do what she does. If they exist I dont know about them.

On a separate note, what i've found in recent testing is that the deck can be blown out to blood moon. Hasn't happened yet cause i discarded it but a potential problem. EDIT: it has happened and still beat through it with a DRS and wear. Wear gets countered sometimes but DRS lets you cast another DRS so you can hopefully have mana up for abrupt decay... Yes the stars have to align correctly but idk what else to do. Blood moon seems to be the only major problem now. (it happened in a S&T match, which turns off my crop rotation karakas plan. I still won the match cause his S&T helps me assemble my combo faster and a 20/20 is bigger than an emrakul :)

How to fix this? I'd really love to find an answer other than basics. Deathrite is one out but hardly the answer.

I wish there was a card I could run that would just blow out lands.deck cause that matchup requires to much thought. Its defiantly winnable but not easily.


Things I've discovered in testing

The manabase is surprisingly resilient. If they wasteland you, you can crop rotation in resp. most of the time game 1 they'll wasteland a colored source instead of saving it for depths. Game 2 is a different story but your colored sources are safe and your depths are being watched. This is fine cause typically you can play around 1-2 wastelands. The problem comes when it starts to be recursive with life from the loam or crucible. Or when its wasteland, karakas, maze all in a row.

Timing is so important in this deck more than any deck i've played just because crop rotation allows you to capitalize on their misplays. lets say you just have 2 forests showing and they choose to tap out with their karakas, you can double crop rotation, so wait for opportunities.

Once the counters are removed from depths, its going to resolve because its a statebased trigger. I dont know if there are any judges reading this but I was curious cause i read an old ruling on gatherer about state based triggers. If Depths has no ice counters on it and it triggers, and someone attempts to wasteland it, will it put another trigger on the stack above it because statebased actions are checked when priority happens or will it not add another trigger to the stack until its original trigger resolves?

Sideboard ( I have one now)

I am pretty dead set on these

4x pithing needle (karakas, wasteland, maze of ith, planeswalkers, kuldotha forgemaster, EQUIPMENTS)
1x bojuka bog (crop rotation target)

These are open spots im not convinced are the best options, but it is what im using at the moment.

4x dread of night (just really good vs D&T and maverick which are unfavorable pre board. yes I play with white creatures but i take them out and side these in)
3x choke (more hate for blue based decks, rug miracles, S&T, OMNI, High tide)
1x enlightened tutor (extra 1 of the previous 11)
2x wear / tear (can get value with red produced by DRS - mainly included to deal with equipments, o rings, omni - halls, sneak attack. hits things abrupt decay doesn't.)


I've considered adding 3x jittes in board vs aggro heavy decks but havent tested it. Pithing needle seems to stop jitte along with other major purposes. currently wear/tear helps also but if that goes, which im not opposed to, i may need to revising the strategy vs aggro)

Since pithing needle answers all of the "problems" other than blood moon, Really I just need to improve my matchups with my board.

I'm currently trying to answer the following questions with my sideboard but need help.

How can I improve my matchup vs aggro...mainly D&T and Maverick, but also including RUG BUG and UWR, merfolk?

How can i improve my matchup vs graveyard recursive decks... mainly aggro loam and lands.deck, but also including dredge?

how can I improve my Combo matchups...High Tide S&T and ANT?

What cards are the above mentioned decks weakest too?

[Ingo]

I have been working on this in the rock thread. After much playtesting I have realized that while the deck has a heavy aggro element it really doesn't win via aggro and is more of a dedicated Depths combo. I will post here from now on. I have copied my two most meaningful posts here and deleted them in the rock tread. I apolagize for the confusion.


It's very interesting that you were working on The Rock Thread with a depths list, as there's also a discussion on depths/stage in the pox thread (on mtgsalvation). Who knows in how many other threads people are discussing this combo?
Anyway, I find your approach very refreshing as I am (stuck) thinking in BGR colors. One thing I noticed though is that you do not run Life from the loam. Why is that? It brings your pieces back, recurs wasteland, and dredging actually finds your pieces faster (it's on your cut-list).
I will give you some suggestions to some of your questions in a later post, through the experiences I had in BRG colors.

[apple713]

It's very interesting that you were working on The Rock Thread with a depths list, as there's also a discussion on depths/stage in the pox thread (on mtgsalvation). Who knows in how many other threads people are discussing this combo?
Anyway, I find your approach very refreshing as I am (stuck) thinking in BGR colors. One thing I noticed though is that you do not run Life from the loam. Why is that? It brings your pieces back, recurs wasteland, and dredging actually finds your pieces faster (it's on your cut-list).
I will give you some suggestions to some of your questions in a later post, through the experiences I had in BRG colors.

Well I posted in the rock list because I was looking for creatures / spells in those colors that might help facilitate.

It makes sense that its in pox cause it splashes very easily there. I dont think thats the best home for it though.

I am very interested to hear what you included in red that was any use at all. I cant think of any cards that help.

so im glad you asked about loam cause im not sure that i've talked about its shortcomings.

So on t2 you can cast loam but you probably won't. on t3 you could cast it but you probably wont cause what would you get back? Fetchlands? Wastelands to try and lock them out?

T4-5 is where it might be used to recover pieces of your combo if you fail. Typically you dont fail once your combo is pieced together. Often times if you do fail its simple to assemble the combo again. Loam would make that easier, but i dont think its necessary. Unfortunately it doesnt have any other application other than being a back up plan for a failed attempt. It does not help assemble the combo in the first place.




im currently in the process of testing out a different sideboarding strategy.

these will stay the same because they are simply something the deck cannot go without.

4x pithing needle
1x bojuka bog

the next 10 "flex spots" i've divided into either against combo, or against aggro

against aggro

1x knight of the reliquary
1x mother of runes
1x vampire hexmage
1x dark depths
1x thespians stage

The idea here is to increase consistency and redundancy. Cut the disruption. Get your combo faster and more often. It's common knowledge that Combo typically beats aggro.


Against combo

1x thalia
1x hymn to tourach
3x cabal therapy or 3x glow rider (being to heavily dependant on discard gets blown out by leyline of sanctity)

The idea here is the opposite of the against aggro. Increase disruption and cut removal. survive and assemble your combo along the way. Control typically beats combo.

I havent had much time to test this sideboard but its what im currently in the process of testing. I'll update when i have some results.

[Kyle]

Hey apple713, I think what Ingo was saying about Life From The Loam is that you can use the dredge ability to get more lands into your graveyard, and then Loam them back. In our testing I definitely understand that it isn't totally necessary since Crop Rotation and Bob find your pieces pretty reliably.

That leaves Loam as an insurance policy, however one other thing I realized is that Loam also leaves you much more vulnerable to graveyard hate, specifically a 1/2 1 green mana elf called Deathrite Shaman.

In any case, if you've felt that the deck sometimes fizzles out, Loam might be the thing to try.

[apple713]

Hey apple713, I think what Ingo was saying about Life From The Loam is that you can use the dredge ability to get more lands into your graveyard, and then Loam them back. In our testing I definitely understand that it isn't totally necessary since Crop Rotation and Bob find your pieces pretty reliably.

That leaves Loam as an insurance policy, however one other thing I realized is that Loam also leaves you much more vulnerable to graveyard hate, specifically a 1/2 1 green mana elf called Deathrite Shaman.

In any case, if you've felt that the deck sometimes fizzles out, Loam might be the thing to try.

I understand that its an insurance policy. It also reveals more about the deck than is preferable.

Additionally its weak to DRS which is everywhere. pretty much anything thats black or green, which is about half the field

The other part of the field plays RIP.

I do not feel like the deck fizzles out. The only time that really happens is when its trying to assemble the combo a 3rd time. Assembling it a second time isnt hard at all. Many times you have it sitting in your hand.

in the few matches i've played I'm liking the new SB that im testing. Forcing someone to pay 6 for a S&T is nice. (thalia and 2 glow rider) Then they cant force your crop rotation into a karakas :) Owned.

[Ingo]

I understand that its an insurance policy. It also reveals more about the deck than is preferable.

Additionally its weak to DRS which is everywhere. pretty much anything thats black or green, which is about half the field

The other part of the field plays RIP.

I do not feel like the deck fizzles out. The only time that really happens is when its trying to assemble the combo a 3rd time. Assembling it a second time isnt hard at all. Many times you have it sitting in your hand.


I agree that you should not run life from the loam if its just for recurring the combopieces. But you can integrate a sort of loam package (like in loampox, or other loamdecks).
Cards often run together are Wasteland (ofcourse), Punishing Fire, Grove of the Burnwillows, Cyclelands (forgotten cave, barren moor for cardadvantage), Mox diamond, Gamble/entomb, Burning wish (3 loams maindeck, 1 in board), Devastating dreams, Raven’s crime, Worm Harvest

Loam is very synergetic with PFire/Grove. By dredging you get these in the yard, and have recurrable creaturekill. Pfire handles DRS very well, especially with gamble to tutor for it. Gamble also gets you your pieces, but with loam as backup (random discard). It’s very true that DRS is everywhere, but the advantage is also that players pack less gravehate in the sideboard because they run DRS main.

I like playing with loam, but you must feel comfortable with this strategy. Playing a loambased deck though, has the advantage that you can retrieve your combopieces.
But as you pointed out, the graveyard is vulnerable, so I also include Dark Confidant and Sylvan Library (especially when your opponent swords the token, you have 20 extra life to pay for carddrawing). I’ll also test Faithless looting.

Further cards are disruption (inquisition of Kozilek, Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach, sinkhole, abrupt decay). In the poxvariant there’s also smallpox, that gives a very strong manadenialplan along with sinkhole, devastating dreams, croprotated wastelands or Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, and Loam recurring wasteland. But the reason I am dropping smallpox (and some part of the manadenialplan) is that you can’t run Dark Confidant along with it. I also run Raging Ravine and Tomb of Urami as a backup plan. So this is what I’ll test (no sideboard included yet):

2 Dark Depths
2 Thespian’s Stage
4 wasteland
1 Raging Ravine
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 badlands
2 bayou
4 verdant catacombs
2 Barren Moor
1 Forgotten Cave
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Tomb of Urami

3 Life from the Loam
3 Punishing Fire
4 Gamble
3 Crop Rotation
4 Dark Confidant
2 Sylvan Library
2 Faithless Looting
4 inquisition of Kozilek
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Mox diamond

[apple713]

I agree that you should not run life from the loam if its just for recurring the combopieces. But you can integrate a sort of loam package (like in loampox, or other loamdecks).
Cards often run together are Wasteland (ofcourse), Punishing Fire, Grove of the Burnwillows, Cyclelands (forgotten cave, barren moor for cardadvantage), Mox diamond, Gamble/entomb, Burning wish (3 loams maindeck, 1 in board), Devastating dreams, Raven’s crime, Worm Harvest

Loam is very synergetic with PFire/Grove. By dredging you get these in the yard, and have recurrable creaturekill. Pfire handles DRS very well, especially with gamble to tutor for it. Gamble also gets you your pieces, but with loam as backup (random discard). It’s very true that DRS is everywhere, but the advantage is also that players pack less gravehate in the sideboard because they run DRS main.

I like playing with loam, but you must feel comfortable with this strategy. Playing a loambased deck though, has the advantage that you can retrieve your combopieces.
But as you pointed out, the graveyard is vulnerable, so I also include Dark Confidant and Sylvan Library (especially when your opponent swords the token, you have 20 extra life to pay for carddrawing). I’ll also test Faithless looting.

Further cards are disruption (inquisition of Kozilek, Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach, sinkhole, abrupt decay). In the poxvariant there’s also smallpox, that gives a very strong manadenialplan along with sinkhole, devastating dreams, croprotated wastelands or Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, and Loam recurring wasteland. But the reason I am dropping smallpox (and some part of the manadenialplan) is that you can’t run Dark Confidant along with it. I also run Raging Ravine and Tomb of Urami as a backup plan. So this is what I’ll test (no sideboard included yet):

2 Dark Depths
2 Thespian’s Stage
4 wasteland
1 Raging Ravine
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 badlands
2 bayou
4 verdant catacombs
2 Barren Moor
1 Forgotten Cave
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Tomb of Urami

3 Life from the Loam
3 Punishing Fire
4 Gamble
3 Crop Rotation
4 Dark Confidant
2 Sylvan Library
2 Faithless Looting
4 inquisition of Kozilek
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Mox diamond

I agree that Depths combo makes the decks you mentioned better. I dont however think that even after those decks are impoved they compare to the version I've come up with.

I've had the unfortunate task of testing playing against Loam strategies and almost an exact list like yours. I think i played 2 lands.deck matchups and 3 loam deck with pfire. I lost 1 match out of those. It was to loam/pfire. Loam is very slow to get started and sometimes the game is over before they ever cast it.

I wish you luck in your testing. However I would suggest that you play a handful of games with the list i've come up with so you can compare.



On a seperate note, Someone who was helping test the deck picked it up and said they were having some trouble with it. It requires a lot of knowledge about the format and their decklists. I Can detail certain situations and how to play around them if people would like as they are not necessarily intuitive. Just ask me to if you are interested and i'll work on a post. Sometimes you have to bait your opponent with certain spells and land drops. Forcing them to use their resources in a manner thats not the main focus allows you to take advantage of the INSTANT crop rotations. Knowing which lands to play and fetch for is also another important aspect. Often times it depends heavily on if you have an urborg or not. If you have an urbog, savannah is the best to search for. Without urborg bayou and scrubland are the best to search for because BB is required for Hexmage. DRS can often provide the 1 colored mana you dont have but he can't produce BB. There are only 5 fetchland targets but there are 7 fetchlands...seems odd however with the use of urborg its not always necessary to use the fetches...consider them swamps.

The main goal is combo. Assembling it is often your first priority. However, dont neglect your aggro aspect and forget to attack with idle creatures.

[Ingo]

I agree that Depths combo makes the decks you mentioned better. I dont however think that even after those decks are impoved they compare to the version I've come up with.

I've had the unfortunate task of testing playing against Loam strategies and almost an exact list like yours. I think i played 2 lands.deck matchups and 3 loam deck with pfire. I lost 1 match out of those. It was to loam/pfire. Loam is very slow to get started and sometimes the game is over before they ever cast it.

I wish you luck in your testing. However I would suggest that you play a handful of games with the list i've come up with so you can compare.



Seriously, have some common decency, or don't post at all.

[apple713]

Seriously, have some common decency, or don't post at all.

What part of my opinion offended you?

[Ingo]

What part of my opinion offended you?
You are very welcome to give some constructive criticism.
Your 'opinion' wasn't.

I also just edited my response, as it wasn't respectful as wel.
Your statement that playtesting against loam is an unfortunate task, can't be meant in a positive way.
Perhaps unintended, so I propose to stop this bickering and go back to discuss the deck.

[apple713]

You are very welcome to give some constructive criticism.
Your 'opinion' wasn't.

I also just edited my response, as it wasn't respectful as wel.
Your statement that playtesting against loam is an unfortunate task, can't be meant in a positive way.
Perhaps unintended, so I propose to stop this bickering and go back to discuss the deck.

I'll rephrase, playtesting against loam is unfortunate because it's the longest most grindy matchup you'll have to play with this deck. I'm not a fan of long grindy matchups which is why im trying to play a combo deck. There was no negative derrogatory tones intended.

[Ingo]

I'll rephrase, playtesting against loam is unfortunate because it's the longest most grindy matchup you'll have to play with this deck. I'm not a fan of long grindy matchups which is why im trying to play a combo deck. There was no negative derrogatory tones intended.

Okay then, forgive and forget.

You should give loam strategies more credit though, even if you hate playing against them. The only high ending deck (17th) in a SCG-tournament with Depths/Stage until now has been the landsdeck of Kurt Spiess, 17th (I posted the link before).

I don't think Stage/depths is very suited for all-in combo, because it's slow and vulnerable. It is slow because you need to assemble your pieces, play them, sac them, and then give your opponent another turn before you attack for 20 (which could be blocked as well). It is vulnerable, because it involves lands (vulnerable to wasteland) and dies to swords to plowshares and Karakas. And if it dies, you've set yourself 1 or 2 landdrops back. So even without sideboarding, almost every deck has some preboard answers to the combo.
My interest lies in the fact that it is uncounterable though, and that it is abusable in a lands-involving strategy.

I do not think we will be able to give eachother much advice, since were looking for a different decktype with the combo (control-combo versus allin combo). Although your build contains many controlelements as well (Thalia, DRS, mother of runes), so maybe im wrong in putting you on allin combo. The only card in red I could advice you on is Gamble, as it is a tutor for 1 mana, for whatever you desire. And it's downside is neglectible, since everything you desire (which are lands and loam) recurs from the yard.

Your ideas in building a control/combo deck would be very much appreciated. But there's no use in trying to convince playing allin-combo, since it is not what I'm looking for.

[apple713]

Okay then, forgive and forget.

You should give loam strategies more credit though, even if you hate playing against them. The only high ending deck (17th) in a SCG-tournament with Depths/Stage until now has been the landsdeck of Kurt Spiess, 17th (I posted the link before).

I don't think Stage/depths is very suited for all-in combo, because it's slow and vulnerable. It is slow because you need to assemble your pieces, play them, sac them, and then give your opponent another turn before you attack for 20 (which could be blocked as well). It is vulnerable, because it involves lands (vulnerable to wasteland) and dies to swords to plowshares and Karakas. And if it dies, you've set yourself 1 or 2 landdrops back. So even without sideboarding, almost every deck has some preboard answers to the combo.
My interest lies in the fact that it is uncounterable though, and that it is abusable in a lands-involving strategy.

I do not think we will be able to give eachother much advice, since were looking for a different decktype with the combo (control-combo versus allin combo). Although your build contains many controlelements as well (Thalia, DRS, mother of runes), so maybe im wrong in putting you on allin combo. The only card in red I could advice you on is Gamble, as it is a tutor for 1 mana, for whatever you desire. And it's downside is neglectible, since everything you desire (which are lands and loam) recurs from the yard.

Your ideas in building a control/combo deck would be very much appreciated. But there's no use in trying to convince playing allin-combo, since it is not what I'm looking for.

I never said Loam strategies are bad. I think loam is a great deck. It's incredibly attricious and has answerrs to lots of aggro/control decks. I think it lacks in the combo area. It is a little slower than i would like for my purposes but if loam strategy is your thing I would highly recommend using the depths stage combo in your deck.

as i pointed out in a previous post the deck can win t3 t4 and t5 usually. I can do so while being protected by mom which can also push the token through blockers. Karakas is a potential problem but it can be wastelanded and pithing needled. Swords typically isnt an issue because they cast it on other creatures...The entire deck poses threats and warrents a swords. If you dont swords the mom she'll protect the token. if you do swords the mom you dont have one for the token. If you swords the dark confidant, not open for the token. If you save it for the token then i'll draw more cards to protect against swords like discard.

we are talking about very different decks and i dont think there will be much crossover between our strategies.

[Ingo]

I never said Loam strategies are bad. I think loam is a great deck. It's incredibly attricious and has answerrs to lots of aggro/control decks. I think it lacks in the combo area. It is a little slower than i would like for my purposes but if loam strategy is your thing I would highly recommend using the depths stage combo in your deck.

as i pointed out in a previous post the deck can win t3 t4 and t5 usually. I can do so while being protected by mom which can also push the token through blockers. Karakas is a potential problem but it can be wastelanded and pithing needled. Swords typically isnt an issue because they cast it on other creatures...The entire deck poses threats and warrents a swords. If you dont swords the mom she'll protect the token. if you do swords the mom you dont have one for the token. If you swords the dark confidant, not open for the token. If you save it for the token then i'll draw more cards to protect against swords like discard.

we are talking about very different decks and i dont think there will be much crossover between our strategies.

Unfortunately, there aren't many posts from others lately, so were kinda stuck together.:smile:

But on a serious account, playing with mom, thalia and DRS, could be a very good idea (I play Thalia too in my goblins - she's that good against combo).
Have you tested phyrexian revoker - it's like a maindeckable Pithing Needle on a stick.
I do think the best way of hating out wasteland, is simply running (recurring) wasteland yourself. That deals with Karakas too. That would bring us back with a loamdiscussion though.
And one last idea, you could negate the carddisadvantage of crop rotation by running 2 flagstones of Trokair (and ofcourse at least 1 plane).

Edit: I don't like the pithing needle in the sideboard. Don't get me wrong, it's a great card against specific cards, like Grizzlebrand or Sneak Attack, as it's meant to hate out your opponents strategy. If you run it as hate against wasteland though, you invest slots, mana and perhaps a turn in not loosing against this commonly run card, instead of packing pinpoint hate. The maindeck should be wasteland proof instead.

[apple713]

Unfortunately, there aren't many posts from others lately, so were kinda stuck together.:smile:

But on a serious account, playing with mom, thalia and DRS, could be a very good idea (I play Thalia too in my goblins - she's that good against combo).
Have you tested phyrexian revoker - it's like a maindeckable Pithing Needle on a stick.
I do think the best way of hating out wasteland, is simply running (recurring) wasteland yourself. That deals with Karakas too. That would bring us back with a loamdiscussion though.
And one last idea, you could negate the carddisadvantage of crop rotation by running 2 flagstones of Trokair (and ofcourse at least 1 plane).

Edit: I don't like the pithing needle in the sideboard. Don't get me wrong, it's a great card against specific cards, like Grizzlebrand or Sneak Attack, as it's meant to hate out your opponents strategy. If you run it as hate against wasteland though, you invest slots, mana and perhaps a turn in not loosing against this commonly run card, instead of packing pinpoint hate. The maindeck should be wasteland proof instead.

To answer your question about pithing needle. Its good because I can cast it with 1 land and dont get locked out on t2 or shortly after. Its also one of the few disruption cards that can counter the combo. There are ways to play around it so its not terrible. Pithing needle may be dropped because of things i mention below.

I think I've answered the problem.

The deck's worst matchups have been deathblade, D&T, Maverick, and sometimes miracles. The common idea from them is that they all have access to the following

swords, wasteland, karakas, lingering souls. The other issue is pushing the token through blockers which i could not find an answer for...UNTIL NOW

Instead of attacking with the token, we fling it with the perfect spell rite of consumption

here is why it is perfect. It does not give your opponent an opportunity to respond. The only thing they can do is counter the rite of consumption. Considering the bulk of those decks don't even run blue its not something to worry about.

The reason they dont have time to respond is because once the token is made, if you made it on your turn when you had priority, priority passes back to you once it enters play. Since sacrificing the token is a cost of casting the spell it is paid before the opponent has time to respond. Once rites is put onto the stack your opponent gets a chance to respond. By that time counterspell is all that can save them.

This strategy nullifies all removal strategies, and having to attack through blockers. It's perfect. There is good news and bad news. Bad news is that it adds another card to create the combo. The good news is that you have time to assemble the combo because those decks are aggro decks and you have time to assemble it.

The even better news is that this strategy allows us to cut white entirely from the deck. This would increase the strength of the manabase so it doesnt get blown out by blood moon. The only issue from here is that white was your support against Game 1 combo, and more from the board. If black and green have alternative answers to combo comparable to thalia, and ethersworn canonist we can cut white and move to a solid GB version giving and lose nothing. Yes i understand that black has discard but it also gets blown out to leyline. If they land a leyline and you only have discard to disrupt them you are hozed. This would be the final obstacle i think for the deck.

Against decks with counter spells you maintain the strategy of playing the lands and attacking with the token because using the lands to make the token is uncounterable.

These changes would allow me to rework the sideboard completely.


EDIT*** - I have had time to test rite of consumption and it is pretty stellar against the above mentioned decks. It really gets you out of jams because the decks it's used against are option less to it. I've decided to add 2 to the main deck just because drawing it in other matchups isnt terrible becaause it can ensure a victory instead of having to worry about removal or targeting it.

[Ingo]

To answer your question about pithing needle. Its good because I can cast it with 1 land and dont get locked out on t2 or shortly after. Its also one of the few disruption cards that can counter the combo. There are ways to play around it so its not terrible. Pithing needle may be dropped because of things i mention below.

I think I've answered the problem.

The deck's worst matchups have been deathblade, D&T, Maverick, and sometimes miracles. The common idea from them is that they all have access to the following

swords, wasteland, karakas, lingering souls. The other issue is pushing the token through blockers which i could not find an answer for...UNTIL NOW

Instead of attacking with the token, we fling it with the perfect spell rite of consumption

here is why it is perfect. It does not give your opponent an opportunity to respond. The only thing they can do is counter the rite of consumption. Considering the bulk of those decks don't even run blue its not something to worry about.

The reason they dont have time to respond is because once the token is made, if you made it on your turn when you had priority, priority passes back to you once it enters play. Since sacrificing the token is a cost of casting the spell it is paid before the opponent has time to respond. Once rites is put onto the stack your opponent gets a chance to respond. By that time counterspell is all that can save them.

This strategy nullifies all removal strategies, and having to attack through blockers. It's perfect. There is good news and bad news. Bad news is that it adds another card to create the combo. The good news is that you have time to assemble the combo because those decks are aggro decks and you have time to assemble it.

The even better news is that this strategy allows us to cut white entirely from the deck. This would increase the strength of the manabase so it doesnt get blown out by blood moon. The only issue from here is that white was your support against Game 1 combo, and more from the board. If black and green have alternative answers to combo comparable to thalia, and ethersworn canonist we can cut white and move to a solid GB version giving and lose nothing. Yes i understand that black has discard but it also gets blown out to leyline. If they land a leyline and you only have discard to disrupt them you are hozed. This would be the final obstacle i think for the deck.

Against decks with counter spells you maintain the strategy of playing the lands and attacking with the token because using the lands to make the token is uncounterable.

These changes would allow me to rework the sideboard completely.

Where do you wanna go with this deck? You can definitely go G/B, but it takes you away from all-in combo, or the BGW list with controllish creatures.
Do you wanna play full combo, or rather an aggro or controlbuild with combofinish.

Rite of consumption is a nice idea, but like you said, another extra card in the combochain.

You shouldn't worry too much about leyline with black disruption.
Playing leyline means at least 1 less card in hand dedicated to combo (decreased with each mull), increasing your chances of comboing first.
Best disruption is a mixed package, besides handhate you have access to landdestruction through sinkhole and recurring wastes, and even nether void to lock things up.
It makes your crop rotations multifunctional, as they can be wasteland 5-8, or instant tutors for Tabernacle.
The downside of this G/B plan is that your disruption isn't creaturebased, so no pressure from that side.

[apple713]

Where do you wanna go with this deck? You can definitely go G/B, but it takes you away from all-in combo, or the BGW list with controllish creatures.
Do you wanna play full combo, or rather an aggro or controlbuild with combofinish.

Rite of consumption is a nice idea, but like you said, another extra card in the combochain.

You shouldn't worry too much about leyline with black disruption.
Playing leyline means at least 1 less card in hand dedicated to combo (decreased with each mull), increasing your chances of comboing first.
Best disruption is a mixed package, besides handhate you have access to landdestruction through sinkhole and recurring wastes, and even nether void to lock things up.
It makes your crop rotations multifunctional, as they can be wasteland 5-8, or instant tutors for Tabernacle.
The downside of this G/B plan is that your disruption isn't creaturebased, so no pressure from that side.

i dont care whether this deck goes in terms of aggro / control or all in combo. I just want this deck to be a DTB. I think its very close because the delver / shardless matchups are a simple race and wasteland is the only real threat. Game 1 they wasteland a mana producer instead of depths and g2 you have pithing needle. elves is a race but much harder cause they are faster. S&T variants are particularly easy with the white version cause your hate bears slow them down AND put pressure on, with more support from the board. With the addition of rites it makes the remaining match ups singnificantly better to the point where you need 3 cards instead of 2...Thats the majority of the matchups in DTB.

Going GB actually is the All in combo version. I dont know why I havent thought of this before but Nether void is perfect Black SB against Combo. The only issue is that it cost 4. That may be too late. It's definatly worth a try tho. Nether void would completly lock them out better than both thalia and canonist.

I've had a chance to test a little with rite of consumption. Its not a 4 of unless you're on all in combo, but even then maybe only three. I'm currently testing the BWG with 2 rites main and 2 in the board. I have open slots now since I cut the dread of nights. Also Im testing taking out Hymn to tourach for inquistion of kozelick. The reason is because this deck only has a few hate based cards and it would rather pick 1 carefully than simple gain card advantage that might or might not help. For example, no matter what match im playing I'll usually take the removal from their hand because landing a dark confidant or sylvan library is critical in games where I dont have the combo waiting in hand.

[beebles]

I built the following list off the top of my head and played it at a little local legacy tourney. I lost the first round to a catastrophic misplay against jund (I discarded an extra dark Depths to mox diamond against and had them surgical extracted when I had the turn 2 combo in hand on the play arrgggh). But then crushed a 12 Post, Elves! and Deathblade deck.

It can play a pretty good fair game as a midrange Rock/Junk/Aggroloam deck and then switch to combo mode when you spot an opening. Hexmage is not the worst guy ever on the beat down and does a good job keeping little guys with Jittes from attacking (due to first strike) and can sac himself to kill a Jace if need be. It is pretty flexible and people really seemed confused how to play against it or sideboard against me.


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary

2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Life from the Loam
2 Sylvan Library
3 Liliana of the Veil

3 Mox Diamond
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savanah
3 Dark Depths
3 Urborg Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland

SB
2 Engineered Plague
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Krosan Grip
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Thalia Guardian of Thraben
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
2 Choke

[apple713]

I built the following list off the top of my head and played it at a little local legacy tourney. I lost the first round to a catastrophic misplay against jund (I discarded an extra dark Depths to mox diamond against and had them surgical extracted when I had the turn 2 combo in hand on the play arrgggh). But then crushed a 12 Post, Elves! and Deathblade deck.

It can play a pretty good fair game as a midrange Rock/Junk/Aggroloam deck and then switch to combo mode when you spot an opening. Hexmage is not the worst guy ever on the beat down and does a good job keeping little guys with Jittes from attacking (due to first strike) and can sac himself to kill a Jace if need be. It is pretty flexible and people really seemed confused how to play against it or sideboard against me.


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary

2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Life from the Loam
2 Sylvan Library
3 Liliana of the Veil

3 Mox Diamond
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savanah
3 Dark Depths
3 Urborg Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland

SB
2 Engineered Plague
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Krosan Grip
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Thalia Guardian of Thraben
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
2 Choke

hexmage is great, i've found him to be an excellent creature as well.

How do you like Liliana in the deck? I find her to be terrible to play against, im not sure why you would want her in the main board. Get rid of duplicate lands? I guess with loam you have more expendible cards.

Did you find that knight was worth playing? With all the DRS around knight was always very small when i played with it. Also it seemed slower when used as a tutor for the combo.

Interesting take. Do you find that Mox diamond helps that much? It may be good to have so wasteland doenst rock you.

[Ingo]

I built the following list off the top of my head and played it at a little local legacy tourney. I lost the first round to a catastrophic misplay against jund (I discarded an extra dark Depths to mox diamond against and had them surgical extracted when I had the turn 2 combo in hand on the play arrgggh). But then crushed a 12 Post, Elves! and Deathblade deck.

It can play a pretty good fair game as a midrange Rock/Junk/Aggroloam deck and then switch to combo mode when you spot an opening. Hexmage is not the worst guy ever on the beat down and does a good job keeping little guys with Jittes from attacking (due to first strike) and can sac himself to kill a Jace if need be. It is pretty flexible and people really seemed confused how to play against it or sideboard against me.


Congrats on the tournament result, it looks like a solid list.
Can image its hard sideboarding against you, as switching between gameplans seems quite easy.

Some questions, if you don't mind:
Was the combo decisive in your wins, or was it the midrange junk that sealed the deal mostly?
I'm especially interested in Kotr, since he easily fetches combopieces, but he's also your biggest hitter. How did you use him mostly?
You don't seem to rely much on T.Stage, because of manastability? It seems like you could easily cut it from your list.

[beebles]

Congrats on the tournament result, it looks like a solid list.
Can image its hard sideboarding against you, as switching between gameplans seems quite easy.

Some questions, if you don't mind:
Was the combo decisive in your wins, or was it the midrange junk that sealed the deal mostly?
I'm especially interested in Kotr, since he easily fetches combopieces, but he's also your biggest hitter. How did you use him mostly?
You don't seem to rely much on T.Stage, because of manastability? It seems like you could easily cut it from your list.

The singleton thespian stage kill came up a couple times and is totally worth the slot. I was sort of embarrassed that I didn't' realize exactly how it worked. I didn't realize if you copied dark depths you lose both your dark depths and thespian stage (the legend rule occurs and you have to sacrifice your dark depths in order to get the 20/20 whooops!). More would be nice but with 4 Wasteland, 3 Dark Depths 1 Stage and 1 Karakas I already have 9 lands which produce colorless or useless white mana which is pushing it. You don't want to make the deck even more dependent on urbog than it already is. Hexmage is a more explosive faster combo enabler anyway.

Deathrite Shaman shrinking KoR is annoying but you have basically 8 removal (3 Decay, 2 StP, 3 Liliana) and Liliana is easy to cast on turn 2 which will kill a Deathrite on the play. I wanted to run 1 Cabal Pit as well but for some reason they were impossible to find before the tournament. Nobody had them and the shop was sold out.

Knight of the Reliquary is definitely a vital. I think running about 6 would be correct if it were legal. It is sort of the glue that holds it all together. This deck grows him scary fast and he provides another angle of attack to keep people honest. I kind of think if you go pure combo with like 4x Crop Rotation, 4x Living Wish, people are going to be able to fight you more effectively by focusing on one game plan. I didn't ever tutor up both the dark depths AND the Stage, but generally I would just get a wasteland to nuke an opposing wasteland/karakas, and then tutor but a dark depths and drop a hexmage for the GG.

Liliana is also similiarly versatile. The discard effect hurts the opponent much more considering the 4 Dark Confidant, 3 Loam, 2 Library card draw engines and it is pretty good against most decks. Plus as mentioned earlier with the 3x Diamond 4x Deathrite Shaman you can get it out turn 2 pretty often which is scary for a lot of decks.

Forcing people to defend against the prison/resource denial game plan of Wasteland+loam +liliana, the aggro game plan, and the 20/20 instant death plan I think is what makes this version good.

I dunno what I would change except maybe cut something for the cabal pit.

[Ingo]

The singleton thespian stage kill came up a couple times and is totally worth the slot. I was sort of embarrassed that I didn't' realize exactly how it worked. I didn't realize if you copied dark depths you lose both your dark depths and thespian stage (the legend rule occurs and you have to sacrifice your dark depths in order to get the 20/20 whooops!). More would be nice but with 4 Wasteland, 3 Dark Depths 1 Stage and 1 Karakas I already have 9 lands which produce colorless or useless white mana which is pushing it. You don't want to make the deck even more dependent on urbog than it already is. Hexmage is a more explosive faster combo enabler anyway.

Deathrite Shaman shrinking KoR is annoying but you have basically 8 removal (3 Decay, 2 StP, 3 Liliana) and Liliana is easy to cast on turn 2 which will kill a Deathrite on the play. I wanted to run 1 Cabal Pit as well but for some reason they were impossible to find before the tournament. Nobody had them and the shop was sold out.

Knight of the Reliquary is definitely a vital. I think running about 6 would be correct if it were legal. It is sort of the glue that holds it all together. This deck grows him scary fast and he provides another angle of attack to keep people honest. I kind of think if you go pure combo with like 4x Crop Rotation, 4x Living Wish, people are going to be able to fight you more effectively by focusing on one game plan. I didn't ever tutor up both the dark depths AND the Stage, but generally I would just get a wasteland to nuke an opposing wasteland/karakas, and then tutor but a dark depths and drop a hexmage for the GG.

Liliana is also similiarly versatile. The discard effect hurts the opponent much more considering the 4 Dark Confidant, 3 Loam, 2 Library card draw engines and it is pretty good against most decks. Plus as mentioned earlier with the 3x Diamond 4x Deathrite Shaman you can get it out turn 2 pretty often which is scary for a lot of decks.

Forcing people to defend against the prison/resource denial game plan of Wasteland+loam +liliana, the aggro game plan, and the 20/20 instant death plan I think is what makes this version good.

I dunno what I would change except maybe cut something for the cabal pit.

I like the fact that you run multiple gameplans. It's probably the best way to make use of the combo, as it has too many weaknesses to fully rely on it.
You probably shouldn't make any changes, but if I would tinker with your deck, I would probably add more control and less aggro, like adding devastating dreams - wiping the board, pumping Kotr. Just my nature, and probably a bad idea since your aggro package works so well.
And adding another color with 9 colorless lands is also probably not possible, even with mox + deathrite.

I am looking more in RGB colors for inspiration (so sadly, no Kotr).
I was really impressed with the synergy in the landsdeck of Kurt Spiess (link's in a post above).
Crop rotation, gamble, life from the loam, wasteland, Tabernacle, Punishing Fire and Grove of the burnwillows were an amazing disruptive package along the combo.
I would run this along with black disruption (sinkhole, smallpox, nethervoid, thoughtseize), and drawing through sylvan library (and confidant, if dropping smallpox).
Sylvan Library looks great if combined with words of war, being a secondary killcon like loam+SeismicAssault (and nondependant of the yard).
So more a grindy approach, but I'll make a decklist and test it in real life.
If you have RGB suggestions: much appreciated!

[klaus]

Hey guys I accidentally opened another thread, which is likely to be deleted. So let's merge!
I tried a straight UG approach with a clear combo focus, blanking most creature removal.
I understand that adding more creatures such as Goyf to the mix opens more doors to victory but at the same time blurrs the strategy a bit.

Let me know what you think!

Tutors:
4 Living Wish
4 Crop Rotation
1 Intuition

Disruption:
4 FoW
2 Misdirection (against STP)
2 Fluster Storm
4 Stifle / Not of this World (?)
4 Pithing Needle (Wasteland, Jace, Karakas, etc.)
4 Echoing Truth (wild idea: just to remove annoying stuff like Ensnaring Bridge, but always to buy some time)

Cantrips:
4 Ponder
4 BS

Other:
1 Life From the Loam

Land:
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
1 W. Heath
1 P. Delta
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Thespian Stage
3 Dark Depths
4 Tropical Island
3 Island
1 Forest

SB:
1 Thespian Stage
1 Dark Depths
13 TBD

[thefreakaccident]

I really love the concept behind that list.

[Blastoderm]

Hello everyone, this is what I've been brewing lately:

3 mishra’s factory
3 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
4 wasteland
2 thespian’s stage
2 dark depths
1 maze of ith
4 verdant catacombs
2 windswept heath
3 barren moor
1 cabal pit
4 bayou
1 swamp
1 forest


4 smallpox
4 abrupt decay
3 innocent blood
4 hymn to tourach
4 thoughtseize
3 liliana of the veil
4 life from the loam
3 crop rotation

[adrieng]

Some news with the deck ;

played with to 1 35 player tornament.

4 Sylvan Library
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Crop Rotation
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Dark Depths
3 Punishing Fire
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Pithing Needle
1 Maze of Ith
4 Copperline Gorge
3 Steely Resolve
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Snow-Covered Forest
2 Into the North
3 Pyroclasm
3 Expedition Map
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 3 Seal of Primordium
SB: 3 Trinisphere

went 5-1. I lost round one to strange stax deck with humility maindeck (game one) and sword to plownshare (game two, expected chalice so no sword wtf ?).

Win round two against random, then beat UWR delver 2-0, mud 2-0, goblin 2-0 and death and taxes 2-0 (with armageddon in side).

I am really happy with the red splash, I'ld like to add one sijiri steppe, but haven't tested it yet, who tested it, is it good enough ?

It can protect from removals or give the token evasion againts flyers blockers.

Copperline gorge are for submerge (and maybe because I don't own taiga).

[Barsoom]

Is that a new spoiler? i'm seeing just Opal Palace as a land on the spoiler at MTG Salvation.

[adrieng]

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26884-Commander-2013-discussion&p=758822#post758822

Basically this lands allow you to sac the token to deal 20 damage, so no more sword/terminus in resp, and it is a land so you can fetch it.

Might see play as a two-three off.

All the cards are uncounterable.

[Barsoom]

Opal Palace is the land spoilered so far and it's not like you are saying (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=147192&stc=1&d=1381982431). Can you give a link or source to the land you are talking to?

EDIT: LOL those lands posted by Kayradis are CLEARLY fakes, he was just joking, really man...

[Infinitium]

Those lands are mockups; the lack of artist signature and collector's number give them away (also the my little pony crossover references).

[adrieng]

Oh sheet i thouhgt it was real .... my bad

[adrieng]

Big tornament about 50 players, went 4-2.
Beating BUG shardless 2-1
Maverick twice 2-1 2-1 (one vial version and the other GSZ version)
Random 'meule'
and losing to B/R reanimator 2-0 and to stoneblade 2-0.

I feel like I could have beat stoneblade, but didn't see my pyroclasme and he overhelms me with flying blockers (souls+strix) while I had a shroud marit lage (game one).
Lost game 2 to restoration angel with sword of feast and famine found the seal of primordium too late.

The changes I made were the followings -2 into the north -1 steely resolve -1forest +1 kessig wolf run +3 phyrexian crusader.
Crusaders were very strong against maverick, and I won one game thanks to poison (with kessig).
Still not 100% sure they need to be play, it was a choice against swords.decks, (death and taxes+maverick+miracle).
The combo is pretty consistant but hate is huge.

I am now testing slaughter games in sb for the miracle matchup.

[Okapikid]

Heyall,
Here's what I've been working on for quite a while, and will be running this weekend as SCG Indy:

1 snow forest
3 ancient tomb
4 city of brass
4 gemstone mine
4 stage
4 depths
1 okina
1 pendelhaven
4 scrying
4 pithing needle
4 expedition map
4 into da north
4 not of this world
4 crop rotation
4 esg
3 ssg
4 petal
3 fling

Board
1 tabernacle of pendrell vale
1 bojuka bog
1 sejiri steppe
4 seal of primordium
4 trinisphere
4 ashen rider (or sphere of resistance)

Anyone else going this weekend/representing?

[apple713]

This is an updated version I'm testing. The white has been removed for blue. Blue seemed like a good choice because it provides cantrips to replace dark confidant. Dark confidant just gets hit with all the removal because there are no other creatures to hit with it. Often times he doesn't even draw me a card because he dies. Rarely will a brainstorm / ponder get countered.

another big change I've made is adding counter spells in blue. The cantrips support the force of will and they allow you to have game against combo decks like ant that you would otherwise have to race.

I've cut the basic lands from the deck because pithing needle stops wasteland and you're not really worried about them wastelanding a bayou or something. They have been replaced with ghost quarters. Ghost quarters is favored over wasteland because you can use it under pithing needle and the replacement land it provides is irrelevant. Quarters targets karakas and maze mainly and can be tutored for with crop rotation.

You'll notice there are 4 ponders and 3 brainstorms. That is not a mistake. Since the deck run's mire's guiles you want more ways to shuffle your deck than anything because it runs fewer fetches than most decks.

Ratchet bomb/powder keg have been put in to replace deed because they come down a turn earlier which is huge against elves and goblins and belcher. Keg doesn't kill mire's guile but it doesn't kill planes walker either so i haven't figured out which I prefer. I think i might be leaning towards ratchet bomb cause you can add counters at eot when you have more information. It also hit Blood moon which is a complete blow out. But now with ratchet bomb you can kill blood moon even after its in play.

Other considerations now include stifle, not of this world, and a whole new sideboard. The white version had combo protection in the form of canonist and thalia. Now that i have that combo protection main i can cut them and revamp the sideboard.

I've cut the discard from the deck because its subpar compared to having counter spells. The reason is that even though i discard something important from their hand they can always draw into something on their turn and it happens more often than i'd like to experience.

2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Powder Keg
3 Rite of Consumption
3 Pithing Needle

4 Crop Rotation
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
4 Vampire Hexmage

4 Ponder
3 Brainstorm
3 Mirri's Guile

4 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will


1 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Karakas
1 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Ghost Quarter

[Esper3k]

I'd love to see Intuition and 1 Life from the Loam so you can get the Loam / DD / Stage package for some inevitability.

[apple713]

I'd love to see Intuition and 1 Life from the Loam so you can get the Loam / DD / Stage package for some inevitability.

what do you suggest gets cut?

[Esper3k]

what do you suggest gets cut?

I'd probably say the Mirri's Guiles maybe?

I think Living Wish also really works well for the DD combo since it gets any of the missing combo pieces you might need.

Let me spend some time tomorrow brewing and see what I can come up with. I've had an idea on the back burner for awhile but just haven't gotten around to it yet.

[apple713]

I'd probably say the Mirri's Guiles maybe?

I think Living Wish also really works well for the DD combo since it gets any of the missing combo pieces you might need.

Let me spend some time tomorrow brewing and see what I can come up with. I've had an idea on the back burner for awhile but just haven't gotten around to it yet.

heres the thing. intuition for life form the loam and / living wish both improve consistency but slow the deck down considerably.

I've tested living wish quite a bit, and it produces a t4 token like 90+% of the time, but it will never improve consistency making a turn 2 token. Mirri's guile does and it helps get other answers like rite of consumption. Intuition id say is very similar to living wish.

I'm not saying that they are bad but they are slower so you'll have to be prepared to have games last 4-5 turns instead of 2-4.

Something that your post made me interested in was cutting black and running red. It would be GUR, red for punishing fires, green for living wish / crop rotation, blue for control against combo decks. Red gives you access to fling which functions like rite of consumption. It also has pyroclasm for fending off elves goblins and Death and taxes. Punishing fires are huge help to a lot of the matches id imagine. This version could also run gamble

[Esper3k]

Alright!

This actually had me up pretty late last night because I couldn't sleep (hopped up on caffeine and brewing juices)!

Here's what I ended up with:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
1 [7E] Plains (1)
1 [WWK] Sejiri Steppe
3 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [COM] Bojuka Bog
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [CS] Dark Depths
1 [M13] Forest (3)
3 [MPR] Wasteland
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [R] Savannah
3 [DGM] Thespian's Stage

// Creatures
4 [ON] Weathered Wayfarer
1 [JU] Sylvan Safekeeper
1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
3 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
4 [FNM] Mother of Runes
1 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman

// Spells
4 [JU] Living Wish
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
2 [MR] Sylvan Scrying
3 [UL] Crop Rotation

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 [DKA] Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 [M13] Ground Seal
SB: 1 [ISD] Fiend Hunter
SB: 1 [CS] Dark Depths
SB: 1 [COM] Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 [TSP] Harmonic Sliver
SB: 1 [MPR] Wasteland
SB: 1 [LG] Karakas
SB: 1 [JU] Sylvan Safekeeper
SB: 1 [DGM] Thespian's Stage

So currently, I've gone with a straight GW version. Here's the pros & cons as I see it:

Cons:
- Not as explosive as the black Hexmage versions (at fastest, it's a T4 kill vs a T3 kill)
- Black offers nice anti-combo / combo protection options with hand disruption
- Doesn't offer a Rite of Consumption / Fling option

Pros:
- Being focused on the DD / Stage kill means every card that tutors for a land now works for either half of the combo
- Less susceptible to Wasteland / Stifle being a blowout (Stifle only temporarily stops our plan for a turn only if they Stifle the Stage activation, Wasteland only removes 1 of the combo pieces as opposed to both being a 2 for 1 on the Hexmage plan)
- Mother of Runes / Safekeeper offers protection so the Rite of Consumption / Fling option may not be necessary.
- Backup game plan of Knight beatdown in case we can't assemble the combo somehow.
- Sneaky Show matchup is greatly improved with the inclusion of Knights and land searching for Karakas.
- Wayfarer / Knight can find the entire combo on their own.

The maindeck & sideboard can use work, of course, but I think it's an interesting direction to go. Ground Seal in the board is there to give some more yard hate as well as protect you from Extirpate / Surgical effects. I'm not certain it's needed though?

The Teegs over Thalias in the main help protect from FoW as well as hurts your land searching spells less.

I have a lot of redundant Wishboard pieces simply because I'm not certain which direction I wanted to go so I figured I'd just play a bunch of silver bullets.

Some potential improvements:
- I'd love to add black to add Hexmage / Urborg without hurting our mana searching consistency, but I'm not sure we can do it. Black also lets us play Dark Confidant and hand disruption too.
- A Cavern of Souls for Humans seems really good.
- I'm not certain if the Sejiri Steppe is too cute as way for KoTR to protect Merit Lage from StP.

[apple713]

Alright!



Cons:
- Not as explosive as the black Hexmage versions (at fastest, it's a T4 kill vs a T3 kill)
- Black offers nice anti-combo / combo protection options with hand disruption
- Doesn't offer a Rite of Consumption / Fling option

Pros:
- Being focused on the DD / Stage kill means every card that tutors for a land now works for either half of the combo
- Less susceptible to Wasteland / Stifle being a blowout (Stifle only temporarily stops our plan for a turn only if they Stifle the Stage activation, Wasteland only removes 1 of the combo pieces as opposed to both being a 2 for 1 on the Hexmage plan)
- Mother of Runes / Safekeeper offers protection so the Rite of Consumption / Fling option may not be necessary.
- Backup game plan of Knight beatdown in case we can't assemble the combo somehow.
- Sneaky Show matchup is greatly improved with the inclusion of Knights and land searching for Karakas.
- Wayfarer / Knight can find the entire combo on their own.

The maindeck & sideboard can use work, of course, but I think it's an interesting direction to go. Ground Seal in the board is there to give some more yard hate as well as protect you from Extirpate / Surgical effects. I'm not certain it's needed though?

The Teegs over Thalias in the main help protect from FoW as well as hurts your land searching spells less.

I have a lot of redundant Wishboard pieces simply because I'm not certain which direction I wanted to go so I figured I'd just play a bunch of silver bullets.

Some potential improvements:
- I'd love to add black to add Hexmage / Urborg without hurting our mana searching consistency, but I'm not sure we can do it. Black also lets us play Dark Confidant and hand disruption too.
- A Cavern of Souls for Humans seems really good.
- I'm not certain if the Sejiri Steppe is too cute as way for KoTR to protect Merit Lage from StP.

rite of consumption / fling is preferable only because it solves all of the issues regarding targeting and the blockers. As you play test you'll notice that while Mom can give it colored protection and push through blocking tokens your token is still open to karakas / maze of ith. Sylvan safe keeper solves those problems but doesn't allow it to push through tokens. Because you have a lot of redundancy you may find that you have what you need in the right situation.

White has good anti combo such as thalia, and canonist, and with your heavy creature presence you should be fine. When i built my aggro version of the deck it was similar but I scrapped it cause I'm a combo player and got annoyed with how grindy some of the match ups felt. I felt like blue had more to offer in terms of combo protection / finding the combo.

if you don't run black senjiri is probably fine, but I ran black and it got cut.

If you do choose to run black, -3 canopy -1 senjiri -2 savannah -1 wasteland +4 urborg +2 verdant catacombs, +1 bayou

you may find bojuka bog to be underwhelming since the decks you want it against are almost as susceptible to karakas. While bojuka helps your dredge matchup your main deck teeg probably helps just as much. Dredge doesn't have much interaction with you either and your knights are big enough to block their tokens. I think you'd find that 1 md ooze does better than the bog especially if you choose not to run black.

IDK if you have access to cockatrice but i'd be willing to help you test on that if you wanted.

[Esper3k]

Thanks for the thoughts!

Yeah, Rite / Fling does get around having to attack, but then you get blown out if it gets countered, which I wasn't a fan of. The GW version I threw together is definitely grindier and takes more time setting up protection before going off.

I don't use Cockatrice, but thanks for the offer! I mainly just enjoy theorizing about tweaking different decks and seeing how far they can go.

I'm surprised no one has really tried pushing the Thespian's Stage / DD combo yet since it's much harder to stop than the old Hexmage / DD combo. I guess people are still into attacking with 3/1's as opposed to 20/20's. With how much land searching out there, I actually had to cut a bunch of tutors simply because there are just way too many good ones (Expedition Map didn't even make the cut!).

[Rampart]

Thanks for the thoughts!

Yeah, Rite / Fling does get around having to attack, but then you get blown out if it gets countered, which I wasn't a fan of. The GW version I threw together is definitely grindier and takes more time setting up protection before going off.

I don't use Cockatrice, but thanks for the offer! I mainly just enjoy theorizing about tweaking different decks and seeing how far they can go.

I'm surprised no one has really tried pushing the Thespian's Stage / DD combo yet since it's much harder to stop than the old Hexmage / DD combo. I guess people are still into attacking with 3/1's as opposed to 20/20's. With how much land searching out there, I actually had to cut a bunch of tutors simply because there are just way too many good ones (Expedition Map didn't even make the cut!).

Its not that no one is pushing the combo, its just they are putting that combo in a lands shell.

Any way what do you think about the following deck list that just won a 77 person event.

4x Vampire Hexmage
4x Crop Rotation
4x Punishing Fire
3x Life from the Loam
4x Exploration
4x Manabond
4x Mox Diamond

1x Bojuka Bog
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Savannah
1x The Tabenacle at pendrell Vale
1x Tranquil Thicket
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Windswepth Heath
2x Taiga
3x Maze of Ith
4x Dark Depths
4x Grove of the Burnwillows
4x Rishadan Port
4x Thespian's Stage
4x Wasteland
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yagmoth

Sideboard
2x Cotv
1x Cruciable of Worlds
3x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Seal of Primordium
4x Sphere of Resistance
2x Trinisphere

Thoughts?

[Esper3k]

Man, was there no combo in that meta? Even with that sideboard, he's probably losing almost all his Game 1's and the G2 / G3's don't seem that guaranteed against fast combo...

[Rampart]

I have no idea, but I bet the deck makes a monster on turn three pretty consistently. Having loam in the deck makes mulliganing much easier.

[apple713]

Man, was there no combo in that meta? Even with that sideboard, he's probably losing almost all his Game 1's and the G2 / G3's don't seem that guaranteed against fast combo...

agree, i can't play any deck unless it has game against combo decks. You are giving up 1/3rd of your match ups. I really don't see how that did so well in a tournament.

[legacyplayer0]

I've been testing a lot and came up with this list

1 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
4 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage

3 Chrome Mox
3 Pithing Needle
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Thougthseize
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Hexmage
2 Crucible of Worlds

Sideboard
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
4 Engineered Plague
2 Nihil Spellbomb
4 Surgical Extraction
3 Massacre

I've been playing this deck online and I've had a lot of success with it. It is linear and focused, with only one game plan. With Thoughtseize, Cabal Therapy, Pithing Needle, and Hymn to Tourach, there is a lot of disruption. Chrome Mox and Dark Ritual provide acceleration, with Dark Ritual usually being removed for Chrome Mox when both are drawn. Dark Confidant and Crucible of Worlds provide resilience against opposing disruption and are great for drawing out answers from the opponent. I run the full four of each combo piece because there is only Sensei's Divining Top to manipulate the library.

[cuthbertthecat]

I've been testing a lot and came up with this list

1 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
4 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage

3 Chrome Mox
3 Pithing Needle
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Thougthseize
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Hexmage
2 Crucible of Worlds

Sideboard
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
4 Engineered Plague
2 Nihil Spellbomb
4 Surgical Extraction
3 Massacre

I've been playing this deck online and I've had a lot of success with it. It is linear and focused, with only one game plan. With Thoughtseize, Cabal Therapy, Pithing Needle, and Hymn to Tourach, there is a lot of disruption. Chrome Mox and Dark Ritual provide acceleration, with Dark Ritual usually being removed for Chrome Mox when both are drawn. Dark Confidant and Crucible of Worlds provide resilience against opposing disruption and are great for drawing out answers from the opponent. I run the full four of each combo piece because there is only Sensei's Divining Top to manipulate the library.

I played against you online I'm pretty sure, and I was intrigued by the deck. I think that splashing green would do you a lot of good; you get crop rotation, life from the loam if you want it (you probably don't), and abrupt decay somewhere in the 75. Extra tutors plus answers to counterbalance and random stuff like pithing needle seems worth the splash.

[AznSeal]

http://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/1rh1qt/building_competitive_dark_depths/

Some guy on reddit is working on a list as well. Opinions on the SFM package?

[HardBrain]

Hey, im new in this topic but i test ROCK with Dark Depths. i personally think that this is good idea to play. i will not describe cards in main which is obv like dark confidant or hexmage. i will say sth about cards like....chalice....but first look at list:


3 Vampire Hexmage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Crop Rotation
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Cabal Therapy - i choose because we will disc opp from all StP
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Living Wish - rich sideplan on this cards make game easier - ah obv:D
4 Thoughtseize

3 Pithing Needle - main target to protect combo are Wasteland / Karakas / Maze of ith. MU say what target will be. obv we can use it to protect us from other bad cards which can be bad. Also works against elfball
2 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Cavern of Souls - 90% call shaman for our Deathrite and Hexmage
1 Forest
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
2 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Dark Depths
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
2 Thespian's Stage

Side is obv. lands to grab it by wish and creatures to win like hexmage or kill bad guy by Maw. one card is interesting: chalice of the void. most of our cards are ! mana but we play it to kill elfball / ant etc. and very good against deck with ponders, bstorms, shamans, etc. i very like this card. also is good vs affinity for 0 and dredge to put off LED / Moxes
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 Choke -
SB: 1 Dark Depths
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Shriekmaw
SB: 1 Vampire Hexmage
SB: 1 Volrath's Stronghold
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 Wasteland

what is Ur opinion about this version of BG.

[fisharu]

Has anyone seen the "Maritocracy" list, it was on a deck tech piece on Gathering Magic

http://www.gatheringmagic.com/insidethedeck-video-11062013-maritocracy-deck-tech/

1 Snow-Covered Forest
3 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Brass
3 Karplusan Forest
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
1 Pendelhaven
1 Sejiri Steppe
Spells (38)
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Pithing Needle
4 Expedition Map
4 Into the North
4 Not of This World
4 Crop Rotation
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
3 Fling
Sideboard (15)
2 Bojuka Bog
1 The Tabernacle of Pendrell Vale
2 Ashen Rider
3 Beast Within
3 Mindbreak Trap
4 Trinisphere

I've been testing this list a lot of Cockatrice and am in the process of getting the Tombs and Dark Depths for MTGO. I'm really liking how often this deck can make a t2 marit lage, has ok waste protection in the form of Crop Rotation, and relies primarily on one color for less color screw. Into the North is a big card for this archetype and I'm suprised I haven't seen it more often being as it enables t2 Lages more often.

Ex: t1 Ancient tomb, tap for 2, remove elvish spirit guide/lotus petal, Into the North (maybe drop a top, needle, or map too)
t2: Play Stage, tap tomb, Marit Lage

This deck has a few good lines, and gets around combat with Flings (which is nice when they have an Emrakul or Griselbrand...or a random ornithopter sitting on the other side of the board) The big problem is card selection, which Top helps with as much as it can but with the lack of fetches it can be difficult to shuffle away chaff without using a random Into the North for the Forest or crop rotating for value.

As far as battling hate it's hard to be mad at 4 pithing needle. Liliana, Karakas, and of course Wasteland are commonly played cards that hurt us a lot and needle helps to make them impact our game plan as hard. I could see this deck going black instead of red for sideboarded discard, Urborgs, and maybe Hexmage. The problem I have with Hexmage is that it's color requirement makes it difficult to use early for the combo and this build doesn't use equipment so having a body to stick a Jitte/SoFi is not as big a deal.

What do you guys think?

[HardBrain]

1st - i think this dack was an supprise and thats all
2nd - when anyone want play in local shop all players will know how play with you
3rd - i want be stable in semicombo deck. thats why i prefer play BG without white. clean BG rokc with DD combo, i post my BG for now and have enough good records to play on event. i will test it on sunday in my city.

[adrieng]

I am still testing this deck,

and I have been playing with fling instead of steely resolve and liking it so far.

With the 5 color manabase we can play swan song which makes the combo matchup not sucks,

and you can most often ignore the token with clasme/punishing fire/ pro blue land/fling.

I am 100% sure we have to play urborg tomb+vampire hexmage which gives a lot to the deck and sylvan library which is one of the best card in the deck.

(protect marit lage from sword by drawing cards+ tutor whatever).

As for the side I lack one card, what I am sure is reb+pyroblast (at least 2), beast within+seal of primordium (you need at least 3 in total for blood moon+

random humility and such)

I tend to prefer the 2 beast within + 1 seal to kill jace or random lands against combo. Bojuka bog is a must have (vs TT/storm/reanimator/dredge).

I used to play 3 fire +3 clamse in side but I am not sure of that anymore. What I am sure is i want at least 3 pyroclasme in the 75 cards ; don't know if i have to

maindeck them ; pyroclamse is better against elf while fire is better against death and taxes. Canonist is very good against storm/omni show which we don't

lose to it anymore thanks to swan song. Revoker is okay against storm and good against sneak show and random decks.

Did anyone tested massacre/toxic deluge ?

I have been trying toxic deluge but didn't like it, we already have sylvan library to lose life, so too much life loss with deluge.

I also tryed slaughter games which is really good for miracle (entreat the angel), but now we don't need it anymore thanks to swan song.

Is there people still testing this deck ?

4 Crop Rotation
4 Sylvan Library
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Thespian's Stage
4 City of Brass
4 Dark Depths
1 Maze of Ith
4 Pithing Needle
1 Sejiri Steppe
4 Vampire Hexmage
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Snow-Covered Forest
3 Gemstone Mine
4 Expedition Map
4 Sylvan Scrying
3 Fling
4 Swan Song
1 Into the North
2 Copperline Gorge
3 Not of This World
SB: 2 Beast Within
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Seal of Primordium
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 4 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 3 Pyroclasm


EDIT : I am liking not of this world not the four though, addeed one canonist in side and the three pyroclasme which are not maindeck anymore

[apple713]

I am still testing this deck,

and I have been playing with fling instead of steely resolve and liking it so far.

With the 5 color manabase we can play swan song which makes the combo matchup not sucks,

and you can most often ignore the token with clasme/punishing fire/ pro blue land/fling.

I am 100% sure we have to play urborg tomb+vampire hexmage which gives a lot to the deck and sylvan library which is one of the best card in the deck.

(protect marit lage from sword by drawing cards+ tutor whatever).

As for the side I lack one card, what I am sure is reb+pyroblast (at least 2), beast within+seal of primordium (you need at least 3 in total for blood moon+

random humility and such)

I tend to prefer the 2 beast within + 1 seal to kill jace or random lands against combo. Bojuka bog is a must have (vs TT/storm/reanimator/dredge).

I used to play 3 fire +3 clamse in side but I am not sure of that anymore. What I am sure is i want at least 3 pyroclasme in the 75 cards ; don't know if i have to

maindeck them ; pyroclamse is better against elf while fire is better against death and taxes. Canonist is very good against storm/omni show which we don't

lose to it anymore thanks to swan song. Revoker is okay against storm and good against sneak show and random decks.

Did anyone tested massacre/toxic deluge ?

I have been trying toxic deluge but didn't like it, we already have sylvan library to lose life, so too much life loss with deluge.

I also tryed slaughter games which is really good for miracle (entreat the angel), but now we don't need it anymore thanks to swan song.

Is there people still testing this deck ?

4 Vampire Hexmage
3 Fling

15 - tutors
4 Expedition Map
3 Sylvan Scrying
4 Crop Rotation
4 Sylvan Library

4 Pithing Needle
2 Abrupt Decay

4 Swan Song
2 Punishing Fire
1 Pyroclasm

25 lands
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Thespian's Stage
4 City of Brass
4 Dark Depths
1 Maze of Ith
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Snow-Covered Forest
3 Gemstone Mine
2 Grove of the Burnwillows


SB: 2 Beast Within
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Seal of Primordium
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 3 Ethersworn Canonist

I still test this deck and it looks like you have figured out how to effectively solve some of the major problems. Here is the issue I'm seeing. You've jammed 5 colors into this. Red does little to help. Punishing fire is nice but is it worth dragging the game out with punishing fire instead of trying to finish the game with the combo? White is only in your sideboard and while its nice i ended up cutting it for an all in blue strategy.

If you are running black fling can be substituted for rite of consumption. I've found that mire's guile is better than library because it triggers during upkeep and because it comes down a turn earlier. I cut the direct tutors for brainstorm and ponder. With shuffle effects and fetch lands (in my build) mirri's guile is much better than without shuffle effects. Your tutors only search for lands so if you need a fling you just have to get lucky.

Additionally, if you are going to run 5 colors I'd highly recommend a weathered wayfarer It's pretty much a 1 card combo.

instead of massacre / toxic i've run ratchet bomb that can kill tokens the turn it comes out and can build up to killing blood moon. I main board it.

The miracles matchup can get out of hand if they get everything they need. Otherwise they kind of fold to it. I've started testing not of this world because its a free counter spell that hits 99% of relevant interactions with the token.

I'm confused on phyrexian revoker. It doesn't hit anything that the deck is generally concerned with, Karakas, maze of ith, or wasteland.

I'm curious how you are finding your changes over what i'm running and what the advantages are.

[adrieng]

Fling is better than rite of cosumption, mainly beacause it is instant so if they sword your token in resp you fling it ; while against rite they just sword their own guy

to gain life and don't die to rite.

Library is better than mirri's guile cause it protects the token from sword (+20 life means +5 extra draw cards).

You don't need shuffle effect, you have already 3 sylvan scrying + 4 crop + 4 map +1 ghost quarter to shuffle the crap, and forest makes you vulnerable to

submerge.

In your blue build you play 4 brainstorm/ponder while i play 4 map +3 scrying, tutor are better than ponder/brainstorm cause it gives you what you need right

now.

Weathered wayfarer is too slow ; I already tested it and disliked it.

Not of this world is worse than swan song, song is much more versatile against decks that doesn't play sword to plownshare ; while still eating sword.

Revoker is for tes/ant/sneak show/ maybe miracle/painter etc ...

[apple713]

Fling is better than rite of cosumption, mainly beacause it is instant so if they sword your token in resp you fling it ; while against rite they just sword their own guy

to gain life and don't die to rite.

Library is better than mirri's guile cause it protects the token from sword (+20 life means +5 extra draw cards).

You don't need shuffle effect, you have already 3 sylvan scrying + 4 crop + 4 map +1 ghost quarter to shuffle the crap, and forest makes you vulnerable to

submerge.

In your blue build you play 4 brainstorm/ponder while i play 4 map +3 scrying, tutor are better than ponder/brainstorm cause it gives you what you need right

now.

Weathered wayfarer is too slow ; I already tested it and disliked it.

Not of this world is worse than swan song, song is much more versatile against decks that doesn't play sword to plownshare ; while still eating sword.

Revoker is for tes/ant/sneak show/ maybe miracle/painter etc ...

not of this world combats karakas, maze, swords, anything that is an ability or spell targeting the token. map and sylvan don't search for hexmage and they can't get other answers if you need something other than the combo.

I have refrained from swan song simply because it gives them a blocker, unless you are already attacking.

In the event that the tokens does get swords, i can see how library would allow you to draw cards.

Fling is defiantly better than rite, but is it that much better?

If you are willing to test on cockatrice I'd be very interested to test with you. PM me if you are interested

[legacyplayer0]

After many more matches online, this is my current list.

4 Wasteland
4 Dark Depths
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Cabal Pit
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Thespian's Stage

4 Mox Diamond
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Crop Rotation
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Hexmage
2 Life from the Loam
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Crop Rotation
3 Golgari Charm
3 Massacre
3 Mindbreak Trap

This is the best version of Dark Depths that I've been able to come up with. It has been working very well, and has the tools to fight any deck. Confidant, Liliana, and Life from the Loam give Dark Depths a powerful core that will quickly put the opponent at an irrecoverable disadvantage if the opponent does not address them. Deathrite Shaman is great, replacing Dark Ritual in my build. Deathrite has the advantage of providing a reusable source of utility late in the game where Dark Ritual would be a dead draw, and of course can also jump in front of Liliana. 2 Maelstrom Pulse provides a flexible answer that I believe to be superior to Abrupt Decay. Abrupt Decay is dead in many matchups, while Maelstrom Pulse can be used to kill stuff like Jace, Sneak Attack, Leyline of Sanctity, Batterskull, among other things. Also, I was surprised by how often Pulse takes out 2 copies of a card. It is common to sideboard out the Dark Confidant and Deathrite Shaman for Massacre and Golgari Charm. This gives the deck enough removal to shut down decks with many creatures. Mindbreak Trap is awesome, because it's good in situations where discard doesn't cut it. It is the most useful card in the sideboard, because it is often the deciding factor in a match.

[junitor]

After many more matches online, this is my current list.

4 Wasteland
4 Dark Depths
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Cabal Pit
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Thespian's Stage

4 Mox Diamond
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Crop Rotation
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Hexmage
2 Life from the Loam
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Crop Rotation
3 Golgari Charm
3 Massacre
3 Mindbreak Trap

This is the best version of Dark Depths that I've been able to come up with. It has been working very well, and has the tools to fight any deck. Confidant, Liliana, and Life from the Loam give Dark Depths a powerful core that will quickly put the opponent at an irrecoverable disadvantage if the opponent does not address them. Deathrite Shaman is great, replacing Dark Ritual in my build. Deathrite has the advantage of providing a reusable source of utility late in the game where Dark Ritual would be a dead draw, and of course can also jump in front of Liliana. 2 Maelstrom Pulse provides a flexible answer that I believe to be superior to Abrupt Decay. Abrupt Decay is dead in many matchups, while Maelstrom Pulse can be used to kill stuff like Jace, Sneak Attack, Leyline of Sanctity, Batterskull, among other things. Also, I was surprised by how often Pulse takes out 2 copies of a card. It is common to sideboard out the Dark Confidant and Deathrite Shaman for Massacre and Golgari Charm. This gives the deck enough removal to shut down decks with many creatures. Mindbreak Trap is awesome, because it's good in situations where discard doesn't cut it. It is the most useful card in the sideboard, because it is often the deciding factor in a match.

what weakness does this deck have against deck with force of will, counter spell, jace?
what sideboard should i include?

do u think living wish is a good side board? was planning to include 4 in the main deck.

[apple713]

what weakness does this deck have against deck with force of will, counter spell, jace?
what sideboard should i include?

do u think living wish is a good side board? was planning to include 4 in the main deck.

No weaknesses to your mentioned cards. Its weak to wasteland, karakas, swords to plowshares, submerge, ensnaring bridge, terminus, maze of ith.

Ive posted numerous times on living wish in past pages.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

I've been testing this guy around.

Marit Lage Combo
Creatures (15)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Vampire Hexmage

Deck Manipulation (11)
4 Crop Rotation
4 Living Wish
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Life from the Loam

Disruption (9)
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize

Lands (25)
1 Dark Depths
1 Maze of Ith
1 Thespian's Stage
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains

Actual Sideboard (5)
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Abrupt Decay

Wishboard (9)
1 Vampire Hexmage
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Etherium Sculptor
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Peacekeeper
1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Wasteland


So far so good. I've noticed the games I lose tend to be my mistakes with a new deck more than simply being outclassed in the format. I'll admit it is slower than a true dedicated list but I feel it is more resilient than those lists thanks to Living Wish. Living Wish lets you cultivate a board and hand state that, short of blue mana, you really can't do consistently. The reason this deck is blue instead of Black is Vampire Hexmages double black AND the discard suite. A proactive game plan is the way to take down opposing combo decks. Mainboard and Sideboard discard allow you to start the game on your pace. Waiting with a reactive spell like Mindbreak Trap or some other actual colored Counterspell just gives them time to scuplt an even better hand. I take it to work similar to other slower combo decks. Just board in some hate and slow them down to hopefully 1 turn slower than you and win that game. As for the lack of Hymn to Tourach and Liliana of the Veil, these cards are great for actually beating someone the hard way, but all in all we are trying to fly above and take out only the relevant cards. I feel cards like those simply are too clunky in a deck trying to win like a combo deck.

Thing's I'd like to change.
I think Sylvan Library OR Mirri's Guile would be better than the 2 Sensei's Divining Tops, I have yet to decide which is better as of right now, and I am testing both options.

I think the deck wants access to a Dryad Arbor (changing the 2 Marsh Flats out for 2 Windswept Heaths) so that Cabal Therapy's flashback can be accessed easier.

I want another Fetch OR another Urborg in the deck somewhere, leaning on the Fetch for shuffles.

Life from the Loam has been sub par in the matchups I've tried so far with this deck. I'm beginning to think it is a set of training wheels shouldn't be mainboard.

I've been thinking about a Tidehollow Scullar / Sin Collector in Sideboard as a Wish target as an extra option against the turn you go off. The match up I want it in are usually very grindy so I was thinking Sin Collector might be the better move as they can't get the card back barring me Swords to Plowsharing him myself in response to his enters the battlefield trigger. (This makes it so his leaves battlefield trigger cannot trigger as he is not on the battlefield, permanently exiling the targeted card.)



Something I'm noticing, as i'm sure others are seeing. The deck appears to be splitting into two Archetypes, one being dedicated Combo and the other being more like The Rock with the combo to finish off a war of attrition. Do you guys think these are separate enough to discuss as different decks? They tend play entirely differently except on some lucky similar draws, and of course the win condition itself.

[apple713]

I've been testing this guy around.


Thing's I'd like to change.
I think Sylvan Library OR Mirri's Guile would be better than the 2 Sensei's Divining Tops, I have yet to decide which is better as of right now, and I am testing both options.

I think the deck wants access to a Dryad Arbor (changing the 2 Marsh Flats out for 2 Windswept Heaths) so that Cabal Therapy's flashback can be accessed easier.

I want another Fetch OR another Urborg in the deck somewhere, leaning on the Fetch for shuffles.

Life from the Loam has been sub par in the matchups I've tried so far with this deck. I'm beginning to think it is a set of training wheels shouldn't be mainboard.

I've been thinking about a Tidehollow Scullar / Sin Collector in Sideboard as a Wish target as an extra option against the turn you go off. The match up I want it in are usually very grindy so I was thinking Sin Collector might be the better move as they can't get the card back barring me Swords to Plowsharing him myself in response to his enters the battlefield trigger. (This makes it so his leaves battlefield trigger cannot trigger as he is not on the battlefield, permanently exiling the targeted card.)



Something I'm noticing, as i'm sure others are seeing. The deck appears to be splitting into two Archetypes, one being dedicated Combo and the other being more like The Rock with the combo to finish off a war of attrition. Do you guys think these are separate enough to discuss as different decks? They tend play entirely differently except on some lucky similar draws, and of course the win condition itself.

I believe you'll find mirri's better with dark confidant

Life from the loam adds redundancy in your list and is probably unnecessary.

About the deck and its variations. You are correct about the dedicated combo. The other archetype is any shell it fits into. It fits into a lot of decks. Ive seen it in nic fit, Rock, Lands, Aggro Loam. Additionally you can fit it into anything because its colorless. Unfortunately regardless of what you put it in it will suffer from the same problems. Wastelands, Karakas, Swords to plowshares. In a lands shell you can pretty much cancel out wasteland and karakas because of the loam engine and the ports.

The deck does not seem well positioned in the meta right now but its still very good because of the surprise factor.

Currently I'm bouncing between 2 different versions. One is a lands version with explorations and the loam engine. The other is a BUG version with counter spells and cantrips. Both are dedicated combo's.

Im almost certain that in the near future (hopefully) a card will be printed that just pushes this decks consistency to the point where its more consistent than the other combo decks in the format. It also wants a card that deals with those three problems (wasteland, karakas, and swords). Not of this world is very close to filling the role perfectly and it fits into any version.

[Atikin]

As an elves player this deck intrigues me as some variations of it are very similar in game plan to elves in that they have a primary combo finish but can aggro and play it out if necessary. While I do not have enough experience to discuss card choices and contribute to this thread yet (played 5 or so games on cockatrice just now), I did come across a situation which I had a question about. I have dark depths and vampire hexmage in play, and my opponent has swords in hand with wasteland in play.

What he did was wasteland my dark depths, then i sacced hexmage in reponse and he tried to swords and i explained to him that he couldnt as the mage was already in the graveyard. After a bit of explaining I made the marit lage token and went on to the win the game.

What if my opponent went a different route though? If he first went with a swords on hexmage, then in reponse I sac it, could he in response to the sac kill my dark depths and prevent me from getting marit lage?

Sorry for the noob question, thanks in advance for any help.

This is quite a neat deck, and I look forward to contributing to this thread with what I find in my own testing in the near future.

[L0cke]

What if my opponent went a different route though? If he first went with a swords on hexmage, then in reponse I sac it, could he in response to the sac kill my dark depths and prevent me from getting marit lage?



Yes that is correct. Also, a relatively common situation that comes up is that you will have 2 Hexmages in play and your opponent has a Wasteland. If you attempt to activate a Hexmage targeting Dark Depths, and they wasteland in response you can activate the second Hexmage to get Marit Lage, but if your opponent is intelligent they will wait until the Hexmage's ability resolves and the trigger to sacrifice Depths is on the stack to Wasteland, because that will prevent you from using another Hexmage since the counters are already removed.

[junitor]

hi,

i am going with this deck from legacyplayer0, any idea if i can slot in Not of this world? will it make the deck better?

4 Wasteland
4 Dark Depths
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Cabal Pit
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Thespian's Stage

4 Mox Diamond
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Crop Rotation
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Hexmage
2 Life from the Loam
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Crop Rotation
3 Golgari Charm
3 Massacre
3 Mindbreak Trap

any ideas will be greatly appreciated. thank you all.

[adrieng]

Play this list :

4 Crop Rotation
4 Sylvan Library
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Thespian's Stage
4 City of Brass
4 Dark Depths
1 Maze of Ith
4 Pithing Needle
1 Sejiri Steppe
4 Vampire Hexmage
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Snow-Covered Forest
3 Gemstone Mine
4 Expedition Map
4 Sylvan Scrying
3 Fling
4 Swan Song
1 Into the North
2 Copperline Gorge
3 Not of This World
SB: 2 Beast Within
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Seal of Primordium
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 4 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 3 Pyroclasm

I have been testing this list for a while now ; didn't test the list from starcitygames though which might be good but more controllish.
Though if you want to play your list here are the changes you have to make :

-4 shaman +4 sylvan library
No resaon not to play library it protects marit lage from sword and tutor the combo.
Please play 4 crop rotation -4 hymn +2 crop rotation +2 expedition map.
-3 seize -1 inquisition +3 sylvan scrying

Sylvan scrying is better than into the north for consistancy issue (having the wrong part of the combo).

No reason to play discard, it is a dead card in topdeck mode, doesn't always protect marit lage you want answers ;
while the deck strength is his consistancy lot of tutors means when you will go on topdeck mode you will likely find the combo pieces
that's why discard sucks.

if you are not playing the 5 color manabase (which you should to be submerge proof and have access to sb canonist + fling) ;
play at least the 1B fling sorcery, fling is the way to go against karakas (deathand taxes+maverick+bant mainly) an other way is punishing fire
and be the controldeck.
Add one maze of ith, it can be copied with thespian stage easily and there are a lot of situation you want to fetch it (mainly you have just one part of the combo, batterskull etc...)

Playing wasteland is not wrong if you play loam, I still prefer needle and ghost quarter makes sneak show/miralce and lot of others matchups better.

Mox diamond is good with dark confidant, i tend to prefer consistency with map (which makes color screwed less a problem)

Add one seriji steppe, I added it and never went back, it protects from sword via crop and gives you the ability to ignore flying creatures(evasion).
I wont' talk about your sideboard which is a mess and hasn't been worked on, mindbreak trap ? really ? play canonist way better against storm/elves/omnishow,
pyroclamse is better than golgari charm against deathand taxes/TT/gob ; and you should play seal of primordium+beast within to fight blood moon (decay is crap against it).

[snorlaxcom]

I'd like to see one waste so you can crop rotate to kill karakas instead of only having a main phase needle.

Edit: saw quarter

[Olaf Forkbeard]

To add to my previous comment and deck list I've recently been playing 1 Dryad Arbor in SB to be sided in with the 3 Cabal Therapy. I've been getting good value out of it. I've also discovered as I'm sure many of you have that the more Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth there is, the seemingly better life is.

[Okapikid]

Heyall! If anyone is interested, here's what I'll be rocking at the SCG this weekend:
Land:
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Brass
2 Gemstone Mine
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
1 Sejiri Steppe
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Expedition Map
4 Into the North
4 Crop Rotation
4 Pithing Needle
4 Not of This World
4 Lotus Petal
2 Fling

Sideboard—probably something like this:
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
4 Ashen Rider
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Seal of Primordium
1 Tabernacle/Ghost Quarter/Tower of the Magistrate
(GQ helps against Karakas/Wasteland, and Tower helps against blocking Baleful Strixs and slows down Batterskull. There's a good chance one/both of these should actually make it to the main deck.)
Thanks!

[legacyplayer0]

I've been playing a slower version of Dark Depths with a strong land theme. In the current metagame, I prefer this strategy over the Hexmage approach.

2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Bayou
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Barren Moor
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cabal Pit
1 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Forest
1 Treetop Village
1 Dark Depths
1 Karakas
3 Maze of Ith
1 Rishadan Port
3 Thespian's Stage

4 Mox Diamond
3 Crop Rotation
3 Exploration
4 Life from the Loam
4 Smallpox
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Nether Spirit
1 Worm Harvest

Sideboard

4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Zuran Orb
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Massacre
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Golgari Charm
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Perish
1 Darkblast
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Maelstrom Pulse

The first cards I would remove from the maindeck are Exploration #3, Nether Spirit, Horizon Canopy, Crucible of Worlds, and Tabernacle #2 in that order. Possible replacements include Dark Depths #2, Entomb, Rishadan Port #2, Crop Rotation #4, and Thespian's Stage #4. The sideboard has a large number of single removal spells, because they all have unique applications and steep diminishing returns. I play Treetop Village over Mishra's Factory, because it can kill Jace in one attack.

[Blastoderm]

I've been playing a slower version of Dark Depths with a strong land theme. In the current metagame, I prefer this strategy over the Hexmage approach.

2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Bayou
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Barren Moor
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cabal Pit
1 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Forest
1 Treetop Village
1 Dark Depths
1 Karakas
3 Maze of Ith
1 Rishadan Port
3 Thespian's Stage

4 Mox Diamond
3 Crop Rotation
3 Exploration
4 Life from the Loam
4 Smallpox
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Nether Spirit
1 Worm Harvest

Sideboard

4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Zuran Orb
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Massacre
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Golgari Charm
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Perish
1 Darkblast
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Maelstrom Pulse

The first cards I would remove from the maindeck are Exploration #3, Nether Spirit, Horizon Canopy, Crucible of Worlds, and Tabernacle #2 in that order. Possible replacements include Dark Depths #2, Entomb, Rishadan Port #2, Crop Rotation #4, and Thespian's Stage #4. The sideboard has a large number of single removal spells, because they all have unique applications and steep diminishing returns. I play Treetop Village over Mishra's Factory, because it can kill Jace in one attack.

I can tell you right away, mindbreak trap is close to useless against storm. It's only really uses are against All Spells and Belcher. You're better off including some thoughtseize or raven's crime. An entomb package to get raven's crime could also be useful maindeck. Extra vampires and depths sideboard have been great also to finish the game quickly against fast combo as well to compliment your discard. Discard + do nothing does nothing lol

[KntrellCL]

Mac Ansbro just entreat'ed Haas in response a decay targeting his top... why did he miracle if it wasnt his first draw? He just stole the game to haas

[Okapikid]

Went 6-3 at SCG Columbus over the weekend with my above list, ended up in 40something place. Lost a tough game 3 in round 9, had I won that I believe I would've made top 16 (opponent who beat me last round got 17 and I believe my breakers were better). All in all, had a blast, and deck performed extremely well. If anyone wants a writeup just say so :)

[Blastoderm]

Went 6-3 at SCG Columbus over the weekend with my above list, ended up in 40something place. Lost a tough game 3 in round 9, had I won that I believe I would've made top 16 (opponent who beat me last round got 17 and I believe my breakers were better). All in all, had a blast, and deck performed extremely well. If anyone wants a writeup just say so :)

I would be extremely interested in your report! Right now I'm playing a GB loam version (started brewing before Jund Depths won couple weeks ago). I'm also interested in an all-in combo version too!

[apple713]

I tried posting in the lands.deck to get some help, then posted in the "jund" depths because I thought it was referring to colors, and now have come full circle back to here since the deck at its heart is a dedicated combo deck.


Spells - 29

3 Entomb
4 Crop Rotation
4 Life from the Loam
1 flame jab
1 raven's crime
4 Exploration
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Mox Diamond
4 Gamble

Lands - 31
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
1 Maze of Ith
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Karakas
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
1 Bojuka Bog


SB: 4 Sphere of Resistance
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 Seal of Primordium
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Golgari Charm




I did very well at our LGS tonight. Its very small but I went 3-0-1

UWR Delver - 2-0

game 1 he fetched for batter skull with SFM and I wasteland locked him. He never got the batter skull into play and I loamed into the combo while wasting him.

- karakas - bojuka bog - flame jab - ravens crime +2 grip +2 Seal

game 2 i played exploration t1 and made t2 token. It got swords and I loamed the combo back over and over till it got him.

Miracles - 1-1-1

Game 1 He played out counterbalance top and I get there cause he fails to find a swords.

- bojuka - flame jab - riftstone - loam +2 seal +2 grip

Game 2 (craziest game i've played in a long time) I start out slow but its fine cause he's slow too. He drops a counterbalance and I grip it. I'm struggling to find the second piece of my combo and he has me on a clock with vendilion. His vendilion took a crop rotation (i think). I end up finding the combo but I know that he has a humility on top of his deck cause it flipped to a previous counterbalance. He swords it and drops a jace. I try to reassemble combo pieces with loam but he drops rest in peace and a blood moon on the same turn. I don't sweat it because I draw into a gamble, and get a krosan grip. he fate seals something to the bottom and I draw into a seal. cast seal, then he casts humility. He's committed to the jace plan and I'm desperately needing a hexmage. I seal his moon and grip his humility but cannot get to my combo before his jace wins. I gambled for a hexmage the turn before jace's ultimate but i lost that gamble. I had gambled 2 times earlier this game and came out favorably.

Game 3 we start at time. I end up with an amazing hand. T1 exploration into 2 lands, t2 depths and wasteland, I attempt to crop rotate for the stage to make my token and win on my next turn but he brainstorms into a force and foils my plans. Match ends in a time


Esper blade 2-0

game 1 I come out fast t3 token and he can't find a swords to save him.

- jab - karakas - bojuka - riftstone +2 seal +2 grip

Game 2 we are both durdling bad. I've got loam with wastelands so he ends up with a bunch of basics. He puts me on a clock with TNN. I have to make the token into a swords to buy me time. I loam the combo back out 2 turns later and tap down his white with ports to win it. He's holding 2 swords in hand.


Big Zoo 2-1

game 1 I punt hard, very hard. I got greedy and tried to play exploration t1 but I couldn't take advantage of the extra land drops. I fumble around and he wastelands my only colored source FTW. I should have entombed into a loam and started loaming. I could have played exploration after t1 and taken advantage of it.

- bojuka - karakas - ravens crime - riftstone - loam +2 seals + 3 COTV (didn't need the seals)

Game 2 I start out with Mox Mox wasteland and COTV @ 1. t2 I drop hexmage because he's safe from removal. t3 I draw depths make the token and swing on the following.

Game 3 I just dominate him. he drops savannah and nacatal, I drop wasteland and take it. he plays a land and passes, I drop a city of brass. he plays noble heir arch and attacks. EOT i entomb a flame jab. I'm able to pick off his noble with jab and wasteland him. The nacatal bites the dust next turn and I dredge into the combo.



There are some flex spots and I'm not sure of what to do with them. I really like how the deck is playing right now. I remember when I said that loam is too slow for this deck but with mox's and explorations loam is very quick and quite a nice addition. It the perfect card for games that go longer than desired. Gamble is simply amazing. I'll gamble for anything I need and usually it pays off.

I consider the flex spots to be, ravens crime, flame jab, riftstone portal, maze of ith. Karakas and bojuka are not necessary main but in competitive meta's they should be in as a 1 of because of Crop rotation.

I'd like to improve my miracles matchup but I'm not sure thats possible. I dread playing D&T too because i would imagine its much like the miracles matchup. Golgari charm helps there a lot.

I didn't play against any combo decks but Spheres and chalices are great against them and My deck is very quick so its a good race. Their disruption typically doesn't interact with me.


I cut some mazes of ith, glacial chasm, and barren moor from the deck before the tournament because I felt like they were unnecessary since the speed of the deck is very quick.

The deck has many many ways to make an early token and can even do so on t1. Between wasteland, port, and loam, the deck solves most of its problems (opposing wastelands, swords, karakas, maze of ith). The issues the deck now faces are other decks winning faster, me not being able to solve a problem (such as ensnaring bridge) before they win the race, and fighting through tokens. I know fling is one option but i don't know if will be more beneficial than the current SB. If there was a fling with flashback, that would be a different story and be an auto include.

[Okapikid]

Here's what I played to 6-3 (42nd?) at SCG Columbus last weekend (lost game 3 of round 9 to prob miss top 16):

MARITOCRACY
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Brass
2 Gemstone Mine
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Sejiri Steppe
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Expedition Map
4 Into the North
4 Crop Rotation
4 Pithing Needle
4 Not of This World
4 Lotus Petal
2 Fling

Sideboard:
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Fling
4 Ashen Rider
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Seal of Primordium

Rd 1: Affinity
This matchup is meh—they have life gain (vault skirge & Tez), and flying chump blockers that Sejiri Steppe doesn't get through (I decided against Tower of the Magistrate in the 75 the day before, didn't expect any Affinity). Games were close, but he squeaked them out. Not an ideal start.
(1-2)
*0-1

Rd 2: Reanimator
Game 1 he reanimates an Inkwell Leviathan. I don't play islands and "mine's bigger."
Game 2 he counters my hexmage early, I bojuka bog him early, then he has to cast exhume. I crop rotation for depths, exhume my hexmage, and that's it.
(2-0)
*1-1

Rd 3: Affinity again
Game 1 I roll him,
Game 2 I think I've got it locked up and he peels Ensnaring bridge, proceeds to destroy me with signal pest + cranial plating.
Game 3 He rips the bridge again, but I've got dat fling ...
(2-1)
*2-1

Rd 4: Omnitell
Game 1 I kill him on turn two (go-go sicko Lotus Petal X2 + depths + hexmage ...)
Game 2 I mull to 6 and keep almost no combo but Ashen Rider + Seal. Pays off. He plays S&T on turn 2, my Ashen Rider eats his Omniscience and he doesn't have a response (whew). On turn 5 he cantrips a few then goes for it again now that I'm threatening lethal with Ashen Rider + Hexmage (the hard way ...), he puts in Omniscience (with 2 cards in hand) and I put in Seal of Primordium, he reads it, sighs, then casts Cunning wish. I respond by destroying Omniscience, he scoops.
(2-0)
*3-1

Rd 5: Miracles
Game 1 I go off early, he tops and tries to Terminus on my turn to get rid of Marit Lage, Fling sends my 20/20 to his head rather than the bottom of my library.
Game 2 was ridiculous. At one point I had Pithing Needles on JTMS, SDT and Karakas. He STPd two tokens (Forcing a Not of this World by pitching a Force at one point), before the third token took him down. Props to my opponent for paying enough attention to not side in Rest in Peace (since I think I was the only person in the room playing this combo and not running Loam).
(2-0)
*4-1

Rd 6: Reanimator (Thomas Graves, who would go on to Win, off-camera feature match)
This was my worst match of the day, and the only time I punted. Game 1 I go for hexdepths early, he forced my hexmage. He's locked on just an island, but my Urborg lets him entomb/reanimate Griselbrand. I asked him how he was casting entomb off an island, he points at my Urborg, I blush (just recently added Urborg to the deck ...). I still felt that I played that part correctly, just didn't work out
Game 2 I've got an expedition map in play. At the end of his turn two he moves to discard, I say ok, he discards, then I attempt to activate my map, which he points out (absolutely correctly) that I can't do. I'm usually super talkative in my matches, and he was mono-stoneface, and I think it kinda ruffled me. He was a perfectly fine cat, I simply wasn't paying enough attention and I goofed. It probably didn't matter in the long run, just frustrating to make such a blatant mistake. He played well, and deserved the trophy :)
ALSO: If I have Karakas in my 75, this game probably goes my way. I was hesitant to drop the cash for it (almost costs as much as the rest of this deck combined ...) but it's def worth it. I'm comfortable cutting the (borrowed) Tabernacle completely at this point, but Karakas is necessary.
(0-2)
*4-2

Rd 7: U/R Delver
Game 1 I attack for lethal on turn three, searching for Sejiri Steppe to get through his delver. This matchup is rough for him, especially b/c opponents almost always side in submerge, and I run all of 1 forest (for that reason).
Game 2 he comes out fast, with t1 goblin guide, turn 2 delver, turn three delver. It's his guide, flipped delver and unflipped delver attacking into my token, and I'm at 11 (he played a Price of Progress the turn before). I block the flyer, take 3 to put me to 8, and the last two cards in his hand are PoP + PoP for exactsies.
Game 3 I play through two Dazes with Spirit Guides (THE FEELS) and make short work of it. He has two submerges in hand, but they COST SO MUCH MANA ... :D
(2-1)
*5-2

RD 8: Manaless Dredge
I rejoice about winning my second die roll of the day. LOL.
He goes on the draw, discards Phantasmagorian. I make a 20/20 on turn two. He kills me on his turn two. I was amazed. (Phantasmagorian discarded 6, then he cycled street wraith, Dread Returned a Balustrade Spy, Flayer of the Hatebounded my face off.
Game 2 I skillfully go on the draw, and Bojuka Bog all the things.
Game 3 he skillfully goes on the draw, but I still Bojuka Bog all the things. Love that deck, but it's SB games must be incredibly demoralizing.
(2-1)
*6-2

Rd 9: RUG Delver
We decide to play b/c we should both be guaranteed top 64.
Game 1 I keep a solid one, he drops two early Goyfs and slows me down with Stifle on Thespian's Stage (correctly), then another Stifle on it next turn, the Ice's my token (fire/ice), then FIREs my for lethal after attacking. I love his build, haven't seen Fire/Ice in a minute.
Game 2 I ESG through a Daze and Not of This World an Ice to get in for lethal. We're at the front table playing an interesting matchup, so that gets a good laugh :)
Game 3 I mull to a questionable 5, and can't make a game out of it. At one point I Crop Rotation for a Bojuka bog on my own graveyard to prevent lethal from two Goyfs, but my hand was never getting there. Only bad hand of the day, but sure did count :)
(1-2)
*6-3
(My opponent ended up 17th)

All in all, great day, deck performed fantastically. I need a Karakas somewhere, but aside from that don't think I'd change much of the 75.
All my opponents were great peeps as well.

[BadLegacyPlayer]

Im embarrassed I ever made this post

[apple713]

What about that Jund depths deck? I just consider a deck based around a non basic land kinda on/off. Non basics can get surgical extracted/extripated. And its an instant so its on top of the stack before life from the loam. Wasteland is also a 4 of in most competitive decks. I am not a big fan of combo/bomby deck. There is a reason why Delver variants are still on top. Even sneak and show which is better than most combo decks is still very hit or miss.

However, If you want to play the deck I would suggest using the following strategy. I would use mono black build. I would use Aether Vial to make sure Hexmage doesnt get countered. Use Cabal Therapy turn one turn two cast a hexmage and sac it to cabal therapy. Drop Dark Depths second turn. Have some counter backup. I think you should just kinda rip off sneak and show. Have some cantrips, some counter/discard. Maybe something like this

4 cabal therapies
4 Drain Life
4 Hymn to tourach
4 Hexmage
4 Damnations
4 Diabolic Edict
4 Duress
4 Aether Vial
4 Nether Spirits
4 Dark Confidants
12 Swamp
4 Dark Depths
12 creatures have a 2 casting so you can vial them in. The drain lifes is to gain life in case of a grindy game because of Confidant life loss. 12 discard spells is pretty sufficent. You can safely deal with True name nemesis and delver. You need an alternate win because the gig is up once they see Hexmage. In the sideboard is an alternate win package plus 4 more thoughtseizes and extripate if you are expecting a grindy matchup. You have a possibility of removing 16 threats with that card. I am not trying to reanimate Griselbrand because I can easily cast it late game or vial it in. Corrupt give you more cushioning. Try it out

Sideboard(Alternate Win)
4 extripate
4 Griselbrands
3 Corrupt
4 Thoughtseize

You are trolling rite? Or maybe just living up to your name?

***EDIT - just told my wife about your post. She lol'd and said "just dont suck bro"

[BadLegacyPlayer]

You are trolling rite? Or maybe just living up to your name?

***EDIT - just told my wife about your post. She lol'd and said "just dont suck bro"
You and your wife can go sit on it. So sue me, I made a deck that was trying to be experimental. we all build bad decks. I am sorry I am not as good as magic as you. Not all of us can be LSV's or Jon Finkels. But then again, that is why I do magic as a hobby. I am not that good at it. I will admit it. But dont be a jerk about it.

[apple713]

You and your wife can go sit on it. So sue me, I made a deck that was trying to be experimental. we all build bad decks. I am sorry I am not as good as magic as you. Not all of us can be LSV's or Jon Finkels. But then again, that is why I do magic as a hobby. I am not that good at it. I will admit it. But dont be a jerk about it.

your deck has cards that work against itself. You can't run that many creatures if you plan to use nether spirit effectively. If you are playing with confidant having damnations isn't the best option. Drain life is a very poor choice for life gain. Your list only contains 56 cards. You are playing mono black with 0 liliana of the veil. Your land count is 12 (mana producing lands). Even if you added 4 urborgs to your deck to make it tournament legal, you still wouldn't ave enough lands to cast a damnation when you need it. Cabal therapy is great with nether spirit, but not with hexmage as you indicated.


Basically what I'm saying is as a legacy player the community expects you to have a general knowledge of the game and sense of synergy. Your deck lacks synergy. It lacks thought, and you haven't tested it at all. You haven't even proof read your list to make sure the list was a legal 60 cards.

TLDR : GTFO

[BadLegacyPlayer]

your deck has cards that work against itself. You can't run that many creatures if you plan to use nether spirit effectively. If you are playing with confidant having damnations isn't the best option. Drain life is a very poor choice for life gain. Your list only contains 56 cards. You are playing mono black with 0 liliana of the veil. Your land count is 12 (mana producing lands). Even if you added 4 urborgs to your deck to make it tournament legal, you still wouldn't ave enough lands to cast a damnation when you need it. Cabal therapy is great with nether spirit, but not with hexmage as you indicated.


Basically what I'm saying is as a legacy player the community expects you to have a general knowledge of the game and sense of synergy. Your deck lacks synergy. It lacks thought, and you haven't tested it at all. You haven't even proof read your list to make sure the list was a legal 60 cards.

TLDR : GTFO

hey dude, I thought this was expiremental meaning I can have a brief sketch/outline but it still needs alot of work. I understand synergy. I have card knowledge. There are pretty good builds out there. How about that Jund depths deck. That seems to be doing well. Yes, it was a bad idea. I had a bad idea, deal with it. Big deal, I had 56 cards. Arrest me magic police. I wouldnt even dare take it to an LGS/event. I would net deck if something was on the line. I thought ok vampire hexmage/ dark depths. Let me put my favorite black cards in their. Ill be damned how it flows. Originally I had Bitterblossom. Is it deck synergy? Hell no but I love that card. Like I said, If i want to do well, I would net deck. Whats that new deck, Meritocracy? That has like 20 land tutors, The spirit guides, dark depths, and that land that copies it? And some other stuff. That is a good idea. Those ideas are way better than anything I could come up with. But i thought to hell with it, I will say the first thing that pops into my head. I understand how to play magic dude. I just didnt think the Magic Nazis would police me. i apologize for misunderstanding what i thought the forum was. So kiss my grits.

[apple713]

hey dude, I thought this was expiremental meaning I can have a brief sketch/outline but it still needs alot of work. I understand synergy. I have card knowledge. There are pretty good builds out there. How about that Jund depths deck. That seems to be doing well. Yes, it was a bad idea. I had a bad idea, deal with it. Big deal, I had 56 cards. Arrest me magic police. I wouldnt even dare take it to an LGS/event. I would net deck if something was on the line. I thought ok vampire hexmage/ dark depths. Let me put my favorite black cards in their. Ill be damned how it flows. Originally I had Bitterblossom. Is it deck synergy? Hell no but I love that card. Like I said, If i want to do well, I would net deck. Whats that new deck, Meritocracy? That has like 20 land tutors, The spirit guides, dark depths, and that land that copies it? And some other stuff. That is a good idea. Those ideas are way better than anything I could come up with. But i thought to hell with it, I will say the first thing that pops into my head. I understand how to play magic dude. I just didnt think the Magic Nazis would police me. i apologize for misunderstanding what i thought the forum was. So kiss my grits.

you are posting in new and developmental decks. I think you are better off posting at the link below


http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?56-Cavius-Casual-and-Budget-Forum

[jhhdk]

...Game 2 we are both durdling bad. I've got loam with wastelands so he ends up with a bunch of basics. He puts me on a clock with TNN. I have to make the token into a swords to buy me time. I loam the combo back out 2 turns later and tap down his white with ports to win it. He's holding 2 swords in hand....

Hmm. Why didnt he use his swords in response to port?

[apple713]

Hmm. Why didnt he use his swords in response to port?

I port him during his upkeep and make token EOT.

Even if he could use the 2 swords I'd have more than enough life to survive through making a token every 2 turns. Loam is good in these situations. Kinda renders the swords to plowshares useless unless they have 10 damage to deal you each turn... and still you'd probably come out the victor.

[jhhdk]

I realize that giving you 40 life may not have been a good long term plan, but he would have had another 4 rounds to dig for an answer.
He COULD have StP'ed your token in resp to port.

[apple713]

I realize that giving you 40 life may not have been a good long term plan, but he would have had another 4 rounds to dig for an answer.
He COULD have StP'ed your token in resp to port.

I apologize if i did not explain the situation well. His turn starts. I port his plains during his upkeep. His end of turn happens and I make my token. I attack on my turn. He doesn't have an opportunity to swords the token because it's never in play when he has white mana available.

[jhhdk]

I understand now, that sure took a while. I applaud your patience, if you quietly thought "How can anyone be so stupid" I can certainly understand.

[apple713]

I understand now, that sure took a while. I applaud your patience, if you quietly thought "How can anyone be so stupid" I can certainly understand.

nah, My wife tells me i speak all jumbled up and out of order sometimes and I just took it for that since I wrote the tournament report at like 2am

[adrieng]

Some news with the deck,
won a 45 players tornament with it going 5-1 ;
beating storm 2-0, merfolk 2-0, UR delver 2-0, sneak show 2-1 lost to UWR 0-2 and then beat 2-0 Bug tempo.
I also top 8 a 35 players tornament (gp-trial) beat 2-1 Bug tempo, 2-0 merfolk, 2-1 elf then lost to painter mono red 0-2 and beat UW tempo 2-1 and draw.
Lost to elf in the top 8 0-2.

Here is the list I would play for the next tornament :
(the maindeck hasn't changed but the side yes)

The deck is really strong and the rainbow manabase is very good makes combo a good matchup !
I think the deck will be a DTB soon.

3 Into the North
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Not of This World
4 Crop Rotation
4 Pithing Needle
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
4 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
1 Snow-Covered Forest
4 Sylvan Library
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Lotus Petal
3 Swan Song
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Maze of Ith
1 Sejiri Steppe
4 Vampire Hexmage
3 Expedition Map
SB: 4 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Swan Song
SB: 4 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 2 Envelop
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge

[beebles]

Swan song seems like the worst card ever for this deck considering Marit Lage does not have annihilator or trample.

[adrieng]

Swan song seems like the worst card ever for this deck considering Marit Lage does not have annihilator or trample
It seems you never playtest the deck, swan song is a very good inclusion you have like 11 card to ingnore the 2/2 token via seriji steppe.

I made some recent changes with the inclusion of a 3 off ancient stirrings in the into the north slot ; less mulligan, better hate in the form of needle/not of this world/ratchet bomb is crucial. The deck crushes miracle and BUG tempo.

Following changes on the previous list -1 petal +1 gemstone -1 scying +1map -3 into the north +3 stirring ; sb -1 grudge +1 gilded drake -1 canonist +1 worldly tutor.

The gilded drake is for reanimator.

I have been doing 4-2 at last tournament beating 2 miracles 1 UR/delver one reanimator ; lost to BUG tempo 2-1 (bad draws and good hymn for him) and to UR delver 2-1 (due to him thieving twice my token with gilded drake).

[beebles]

Correct I have never tested this version of the deck (I played an aggro version of this deck for a few months with Bobs and KoRs) but I know a glaring nombo when I see one. Yeah you have ways past the birdy but most of those ways past the swan token are the same cards you use to go off (scrying and crop rotation) so you might not have extras. Whatever don't take it personally if you want to run swan song go for it. At a casual glance I'd natually assume that thoughtseize would be better but I have been wrong before.

[apple713]

Im needing help building board or finding cards that answer the following. Blood moon, mother of runes, and combo (storm/elves)

The best ive come up with were

Swan song
Ethersworn canonist
Krosan grip
Golgari charm

Is there anything better?

[adrieng]

Swan song
Ethersworn canonist
Krosan grip
Golgari charm

Yes ratchet bomb, is good against blood moon and elf, you also bring them against decks that don't play sword in the place of not of this world.

[apple713]

Yes ratchet bomb, is good against blood moon and elf, you also bring them against decks that don't play sword in the place of not of this world.

i think ratchet bomb is a good answer in theory but the decks i want to play it against can destroy it before i can get it to 3 counters. If not destroy they can phyrexian revoker it.

I added a sejeri steppe to my deck tonight and it played phenomenally. Swan song was another addition to my side which i did enjoy. I think it will work wonders for this deck. With sejeri steppe the swan token is irrelevant.

I went undefeated (4-0) at our local LGS tonight. I'll type up a report when i have some more time.

[SecludedGlenn]

Swan Song seems putrid. What's the point of being a two-card combo deck if you're going to lean upon a card that makes you require significantly more effort to successfully win? Not to mention it's blank against resolved problems like Blood Moon and Ensnaring Bridge.

apple: If you're running the Entomb engine it seems very odd to not have a singleton Ray of Revelation at least in the sideboard if not in the maindeck based on its potency against Blood Moon alone.

Abrupt Decay is a good catch-all against many troublesome permanents, of course. For your specifically listed set of problems, Golgari Charm seems mostly like a no-brainer. Storm will simply require something else, but overlapping against three of your four "targets" is quite good.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

Im needing help building board or finding cards that answer the following. Blood moon, mother of runes, and combo (storm/elves)

The best ive come up with were

Swan song
Ethersworn canonist
Krosan grip
Golgari charm

Is there anything better?

Um... Abrupt Decay + Swamp + Forest takes out two of 3, I run Canonist in SB with Living Wish for the rest.

If Mother is getting out of hand. Darkblast it. Then Loam away. Darkblast has been in and out of my sideboard several times.

My Deck. (http://www.essentialmagic.com/decks/View.asp?ID=998358)

[Chatto]

This deck looks like fun, but the manabase seems so fragile... Is there no room for some basic lands? And perhaps just go to two colors? Also wondering if there is any room for Ancient Tomb to speed things up. Perhaps even Exploration? I am currently waiting for some cards, after that I will be brewing with this deck.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

This deck looks like fun, but the manabase seems so fragile... Is there no room for some basic lands? And perhaps just go to two colors? Also wondering if there is any room for Ancient Tomb to speed things up. Perhaps even Exploration? I am currently waiting for some cards, after that I will be brewing with this deck.

Are you prepared for the worst advise I can offer you for the legacy format?

Be Greedy.

Run the shaky mana base, perhaps it's better in practice than on paper. The only way to find out is actual testing. Look at the Pre True Name Nemesis Merfolk lists. 20 lands, 8 of which don't produce blue (Waste, Mutavault) to go with their 12 UU costing spells intended to cast on turn 2. Sure Aether Vial makes it better. But so does Deathrite in 3 color lists...

[Chatto]

(...)

Run the shaky mana base, perhaps it's better in practice than on paper(...)

That is indeed the worst I have ever heard :laugh: I will go with your advice, maybe it works

[Chatto]

Not sure if people caught this one, but I like this list a lot:

Played by Jason Rose. Top16 in SCG Invitational (Mar-2014)

Creature [8]
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Vampire Hexmage

Artifact [11]
4 Pithing Needle
3 Expedition Map
4 Lotus Petal

Instant [8]
4 Crop Rotation
4 Not of This World

Sorcery [11]
4 Thoughtseize
3 Into the North
4 Sylvan Scrying

Land [22]
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
4 Thespian's Stage
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
4 Bayou
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Karakas
4 Dark Depths

Sideboard [15]
3 Ashen Rider
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Dread of Night
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Bojuka Bog
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

(http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/68118)

Hypothetically you could go for the beatdown with Guide and Hexmage, aka a second 'win-con'

[sarahiscute]

hi, i like your list, legacyplayer0. below is the deck i am using splashing in bit of green for loam and death rite shaman, crop rotation.

//Lands (23)
4 Dark Depths
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
2 Swamp
1 volrath's stronghold
3 Bayou
4 Thespian's Stage
1 sejiri steppe
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Verdant Catacombs

//Spells (24)
3 Extirpate
1 Life from the Loam
3 Mox Diamond
3 crop rotation
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Pithing Needle
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Thoughtseize

//planeswalker (2)
2 Liliana of the Veil

//Creatures (12)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman---swapped out dark ritual for these
4 Vampire Hexmage

total: 61 cards

//Sideboard
SB: 2 Chains of Mephistopheles
SB: 4 Sphere of Resistance
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction----feel like i wanna put this MD. love it when i have a mox and a land out T1. i hymn and then i extract.
SB: 3 Massacre

cards to consider: sylvan's library, tarmagofy. abrupt dcay, maelstrom pulse, pernicious deed. innocent blood, small pox, entomb

[adrieng]

I will be playing this deck at next tornament. I have tested red splash for pyroblast/reb in the maindeck it's not too bad though I am now testing white splash for maindeck spirit of the labyrinth (more versatile than reb), as a consequence I cut library to two (went to zero but miracle become harder).
I still think the deck is right now tier one ; most of the decks can't beat it, it has good matchups vs close to the entire field.
I have worked a bit on the side, adding spirit gave place in side for grudge and rest in peace (tempo+grave.deck+surgical antiTech).
Even decks like painter are not so hard to beat after side. I have been happy with the two off toxic deluge they give time, that's why I cutted lotus petal. Have a try (miracle is kind ok and Bug is good matchup). If this deck become played people will have to adapt with things like diabolic edict and so on.

4 Dark Depths
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Razorverge Thicket
4 Mana Confluence
1 Maze of Ith
1 Sejiri Steppe
2 Gemstone Mine
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Pithing Needle
4 Expedition Map
4 Sylvan Scrying
2 Into the North
3 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Not of This World
4 Crop Rotation
2 Toxic Deluge
3 Sylvan Library
SB: 4 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 3 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Worldly Tutor
SB: 1 Gilded Drake
1 Marit Lage

Went 3-2 but should have been 4-1 beating Nic-Pod, death and taxes shadless bug, losing to omni show (2-1) and to painter (2-1)(should have beaten painter
in game three but forgot to activate grudge in grave on a revoker while he played blood moon and had a ratchet bomb@2 and the combo).

Omni-show is very hard to beat maybe trini+enlightned tutor might do it ; don't know if it is worth it.
Though we have some omni-show players there and I always lose to them.

The spirit have been soso, I'll be back with reb/blast *3 maindeck for later.

Back from some test with reb/pyro on cockatrice it is better than spirit mainly improving miracle. The side is in progress but keeping ratchet bomb+grudge they have been awesome. I am right now testing this list which is close to optimal :
Some cards I am unsure is 1 off razorverge thicket (mainly for side access to white), third grudge and one off toxic deluge in side.

4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Copperline Gorge
1 Razorverge Thicket
4 Mana Confluence
2 Gemstone Mine
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Maze of Ith
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe

4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Crop Rotation
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Not of This World
4 Pithing Needle
2 Into the North
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Sylvan Library
4 Expedition Map

SB: 4 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 3 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Trinisphere
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Swan Song
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
1 Marit Lage


Went 4-1 in last tornament whith the previous list (didn't have third toxic deluge which was a swan song) beat 2-1 nic-pod, 2-0 URdelver, 2-0 RUGtempo, 2-0 Bug tempo and 0-2 to ANT in the final (kept bad hands though the matchup is terrible anyway).

Ratchet bomb were awesome as usual, didn't have to use the grudge but i'll stick on this list.

[Chatto]

Will be playing a tournament this weekend and this is the list I'm considering:

Dark Depths 3.0

Maindeck

Creatures [4]
4 Elvish Spiritguide

Artifact [9]
2 Expedition Map.
3 Pithing Needle.
4 Lotus Petal.

Instant [9]
2 Abrupt Decay.
3 Not of This World.
4 Crop Rotation.

Sorcery [17]
2 Life from the Loam
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Into the North.
3 Thoughtseize
4 Sylvan Scrying.
4 Living Wish

Land [21]
1 Snow-Covered Forest.
1 Snow-Covered Swamp.
1 Ghost Quarter.
1 Sejiri Steppe.
1 Karakas.
2 Ancient Tomb
3 Dark Depths
3 Thespian's Stage.
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth.
4 Bayou

Sideboard [15]
1 Thespian's Stage.
1 Dark Depths.
1 Maze of Ith.
1 Bojuka Bog.
1 Wasteland.
1 Vampire Hexmage.
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Not of This World
2 Tombstalker.
2 Abrupt Decay.
2 ? (maybe 4th Expedition Map and 4th Needle or 2nd Revoker and Canonist?)

I'm not sure about Loam main and still have to fill two slots in the SB. Testing Living Wish has been good, and I will keep it like that. Any advise is welcome!

[Chatto]

Well, that went horrible: 1-3

Matches: Elves (L), Painter (W), ANT( (L), BUG (L) Not much to say, other than it felt like I didn't draw what I needed...

I had the feeling i was too slow, so i'll be going back to the drawing board! I assembled the combo some time, but was just to slow (turn 3 or 4! So not too bad) to end the game. Not going to give up though :smile:

[truls000]

I love the thought about a tier 1 DD deck.

Looks like its either gonna be Ux DD og GB DD deck.


The important cards are:

G gives us: Shaman, AD/Krosan, crop, sylvan, loam, into the north
B gives us: Hexmage, Rite, Shaman, AD
U gives us: BS, 1cc counter (do we realy need it?), Standstill, Tolarian West! <- this one mus be testet more!

Hmm.. What about a BUG Depths...?

[nodahero]

I have been testing a variant of this deck packing 8 spirit guides and 4 Scrying/Map/Into the North and essentially jamming the combo as fast as possible. so far my overall record is 6-2 (3-1 in two 4 round events). Both of my losses were against DnT.

Additionally, I have found Fling to be an excellent way to assist in combating blockers or StP.

food for thought.

[Chatto]

I found that my meta seems pretty good prepared... Edicts, Surgicals and the like... Even StP, followed up by beatdown. My main concern was the fact I couldn't recouperate as fast as I would like to. I'm currently trying to brew a solid build with Loam and Exploration, only keeping Decay and Thoughtseize as my only protection...

[nodahero]

So far my overall record in matches played is 9-2.

One thing I have learned is that the combo matchup and the DnT are anything but pleasent.

My current list is basically

3 SSG
4 ESG
3 Crop Rotation
3 Into the North
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Needle
4 Expidition Map
3 Tops
3 Not of this World
3 Fling
3 Sylvan Scrying
plus a variety of utility lands including Sejiri Step, Bojuka Bog, Karkas and Wolf Run plus Urborg

[adrieng]

Playing toxic deluge +maze(you can copy it with thespian's stage that's a common trick) + sb grudge allows to beat DeathAndtaxes.
I have tested fling already it is alright against death and taxes but i prefer toxic deluge which is better against other decks, also you can rarely
have double backup with fling contrary as others cards ; your version seems also weak to miracle.
When you go for maze then double maze they have to overextend into your toxic deluge which is game from there.
Also not playing sylvan library is wrong best card against sword to plownshares as said a billion time and playing top doesn't allows to name top on needle against miracle.
Though you have to leave your spirit/petal and play lands instead.
I went 4-2 in last open beating RUGdelver, BURGdelver, reanimator, Junk all 2-0 and losing on the draw each time 1-2 URdelver and UR omnishow.

[Chatto]

To sum up

Core cards:

Into the North
Crop Rotation
Expedition Map
Sylvan Scrying

To find the missing Depths, Stage or any landcard needed.

In order to get our big beater in play, we also have Vampire Hexmage

Protection, in various quantaties:

Pithing Needle
Abrupt Decay
Thoughtseize
Not of This World

Perhaps, to be considered: Steely Resolve , Living Wish . While a slow card, Living Wish protects your combo and gives you options outside the game. It happened to my various times that they took my Depths with Extirpate or Surgical Extraction ... Which is not funny at all :smile:

I even tried Life from the Loam , in combination with Exploration : it did good, but felt a bit clunky

Also, the only protection most commonly used would be Pithing Needle . I personally would also use Abrupt Decay

Some of us are using some excelleration:

Lotus Petal
Elvish Spirit Guide
Simiam Spirit Guide (for those splashing red)

Deck manipulation is very good, drawing extra cards is even better:

Sensei's Divining Top
Sylvan Library
Dark Confidant

I'm currently using Dark Confidant , but will maybe switch to Sylvan Library

And of course the manabase:

Karakas
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Bayou
Dark Depths
Thespian's Stage

And various other utility-lands like Bojuka Bog

As you can see, I'm on the BG-wagon. Do I miss something? Any cards at all?

[Mr. Headshot]

Don't forget deathrite shaman. He offers acceleration and utility against graveyard decks like reanimator and ichorid. Yeah, the death and taxes match-up is nearly impossible to win. Half their deck is good to outstanding against us. Never won on tournament against them. More tips would be helpfull.

[Chatto]

Playing toxic deluge +maze(you can copy it with thespian's stage that's a common trick) + sb grudge allows to beat DeathAndtaxes.
I have tested fling already it is alright against death and taxes but i prefer toxic deluge which is better against other decks, also you can rarely
have double backup with fling contrary as others cards ; your version seems also weak to miracle.
When you go for maze then double maze they have to overextend into your toxic deluge which is game from there.
Also not playing sylvan library is wrong best card against sword to plownshares as said a billion time and playing top doesn't allows to name top on needle against miracle.
Though you have to leave your spirit/petal and play lands instead.
I went 4-2 in last open beating RUGdelver, BURGdelver, reanimator, Junk all 2-0 and losing on the draw each time 1-2 URdelver and UR omnishow.

What is your current build Adrieng? And how does not playing Spirit and Petals work out for you? I have no problems with dropping ESG, but Petals have done me good.

Toxic Deluge and Maze seems like a good strategy against D&T, perhaps combined with Steely Resolve (giving your avatar hexproof is no laughing matter) would make the game more even...

[adrieng]

My current build is the following :

4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Maze of Ith
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Copperline Gorge
4 Mana Confluence
2 Gemstone Mine

4 Vampire Hexmage

4 Crop Rotation
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Sylvan Library
4 Expedition Map

3 Not of This World
4 Pithing Needle

2 Toxic Deluge
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Inquisition of Kozilek


SB: 4 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 3 Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 Duress
SB: 2 Inquisition of Kozilek
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
1 Marit Lage

Changing some cards from the side from time to time.
If you play toxic deluge you don't need lotus petal/guide that for sure you might be slower but you are a control combo deck so you have most of the time the better long plan. Copying maze with thespian stage is a very good strategy to wait for deluge against death and taxes ; you also need library in your main.
Steely resolve is worse than not of this world cause you can't give pro with sejiri steppe to avoid flying blockers and it costs 2 and can be destroy. I used to play them (steely and sylvan safekeeper) but not of this world is way better.

I have done one other tornament went 3-2 beating 2-0 UW control(not miracle) 2-0 URdelver 2-0 patriot and losing 1-2 URdelver (on the draw) and 1-2 BR reanimator.
I have changed a little the side the lonly canonist has disapeared cause we are already a bye for ANT and i prefer trying to beat reanimator/elves with more consistance.

The list is solid and I am quite sold on everything (I have tested recently exploration as 3 off but they tend to augment variance in the deck the reb/blast are more solid to me).

[Mr. Headshot]

I'm quiet satisfied with 1x mirri's guile. I ran 1 maindeck (together with 3 confidants). I believe its better than sensei's divining top because we put the needle sometimes on top and it costs no mana. (in the first turns, this deck is very mana-hungry. Have you tried it?

[Chatto]

Right now I'm trying this list. Feels solid, plays solid:

Dark Depths

Creatures (8)
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Dark Confidant

Spells (24)
4 Expedition Map
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Crop Rotation
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Pithing Needle
4 Thoughtseize

Other (6)
2 Sylvan Library
4 Lotus Petal

Land (22)
1 Karakas
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
2 Savannah
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Bayou

Sideboard (15)
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Ashen Rider
3 Krosan Grip

SB is still under construction. I'll choose Sylvan Library over Mirri's Guile all day of the week. I still have a weak spot for Lotus Petal: it has proven me speed as well as the mana I need for a timely AD on Blood Moon. Still, if I would drop LP, it would be for one or two Sylvan Libraries and probably land. Bob has proven it's worth: being a Sword-magnet and filling my hand with cards. If I was to cut something for NoTW it would probably be Thoughtseize. However, for now I'll keep it like this.

[snurly]

Mirri's Guile is much better in loam strategies, so I agree that Sylvan Library is probably better.
Also, I would probably put back some Into the North in place of a few Sylvan Scrying.

[adrieng]

In testing URburn (I lost twice 1-2 irl on the draw each time) deck is not that easy while URdelver is a bye.
I think dark confidant is not where you want to be, it is too slow and gives opponents blast targets.
I am testing a 3 off innocent blood in the place of the 2 into the north and one Not of this world.

Against tempo decks with swords mainly patriot when you get to the point where your marit lage get sworded you shld win anyway +20 life is a huge gain of time to recombo off or draw a billion cards through library.

Whith reb/pyro you only need one Not of this world/crop to get the protection backup you need mostly against miracle/deathblade.

It is only useful against death and taxes/Kotr.decks which is not so hard to beat after side (3 toxic deluge+3 grudge) and where inocent blood is nearly as good.


Abrupt decay is too slow I think and hard to cast, you have ratchet bomb after side which is better at answering things
like blood moon/needle+one cc elves/random humility/entreat tokens (you have to keep the bomb @0 while there is no counterbalance/humilty/blood moon on the board!!) ...

Reb/pyroblast is better than thoughtseize no way killing delver/jace/counterbalance having backups countering show and tell etc ... and the two points of life might hurts.

I am quite sure sylvan scrying is better than into the north for consistancy issues ; getting the part of combo which you already have can be problematic. I know into the north speeds up the deck ; but the deck is already too slow most of the time even whith it to go off before others combo decks except maybe elves but it still faster and with too much density for tempo/midrange decks.

And don't play these bayous/savannah other way the RUG matchup is way harder with submerge in side they should beat you most of the time and you forget the obviosu Sejiri Steppe which is a MVP of the deck, without this card the deck would be much worse.

[Chatto]

In testing URburn (I lost twice 1-2 irl on the draw each time) deck is not that easy while URdelver is a bye.
I think dark confidant is not where you want to be, it is too slow and gives opponents blast targets.

I don't know... It can give you cards to get your combo faster online and otherwise draws Swords etc, which they can't play on your Marit Lage. It's a win-win to me.


I am testing a 3 off innocent blood in the place of the 2 into the north and one Not of this world.

Against tempo decks with swords mainly patriot when you get to the point where your marit lage get sworded you shld win anyway +20 life is a huge gain of time to recombo off or draw a billion cards through library.

Whith reb/pyro you only need one Not of this world/crop to get the protection backup you need mostly against miracle/deathblade.

It is only useful against death and taxes/Kotr.decks which is not so hard to beat after side (3 toxic deluge+3 grudge) and where inocent blood is nearly as good.

I like the Innocent Blood idea, let us know how it worked out for you :smile:



Abrupt decay is too slow I think and hard to cast, you have ratchet bomb after side which is better at answering things
like blood moon/needle+one cc elves/random humility/entreat tokens (you have to keep the bomb @0 while there is no counterbalance/humilty/blood moon on the board!!) ...

I have no problem casting Abrupt Decay. Lotus Petal and ESG are not only in the deck for speed. I like to have the catch-all card! Take away problems you have to answer. As for the Ratchet Bomb, in my opinion, it's a slow answer: you have to get counters on it. If you want to take Blood Moon it could be too late: three turns getting our ass kicked or your R.B. getting destroyed. It is however a sweeper, i'll give you that.


Reb/pyroblast is better than thoughtseize no way killing delver/jace/counterbalance having backups countering show and tell etc ... and the two points of life might hurts.

I don't know... I would rather use REB/ Blast as a SB-option. Thoughtseize have been of marginal importance. I could see me drop it from my list, but I never had any problems with the lifeloss. In fact, it can give you a bit more time against combo.


I am quite sure sylvan scrying is better than into the north for consistancy issues ; getting the part of combo which you already have can be problematic. I know into the north speeds up the deck ; but the deck is already too slow most of the time even whith it to go off before others combo decks except maybe elves but it still faster and with too much density for tempo/midrange decks.

I would even go as far as to say that it does not speed up your deck, but you will open yourself up to too many problems: Dark Depths will come into play tapped, which is a huge drawback. It will show your opponent your strategy and time to make a strategy of his/ her own. I like the 4 E-Map and 4 SScrying.


And don't play these bayous/savannah other way the RUG matchup is way harder with submerge in side they should beat you most of the time and you forget the obviosu Sejiri Steppe which is a MVP of the deck, without this card the deck would be much worse.

Submerge, Snap: they tend to target your Marit Lage... That's why you play Not of This World. In fact, that's why I would drop Thoughtseize in favor of NotW, and maybe two or three Steely Resolve in my SB. I kind of forgot about Sejiri Steppe, and I will put it back in the deck again.

[PhyrexianPossum]

I LOVE LOVE LOVE Living Wish. It got me to 2nd place at a 40-man tournament.

I've also found Noxious Revival to be very, very good.

Wasteland, Life from the Loam, Wasteland, Go. Makes delver cry.

My list:


//Artifact (7)
3 Expedition Map
4 Pithing Needle

//Creature (3)
3 Vampire Hexmage

//Instant (7)
4 Crop Rotation
3 Noxious Revival

//Sorcery (18)
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Into the North
3 Life from the Loam
4 Living Wish
4 Sylvan Scrying

//Tribal Instant (2)
2 Not of This World

//Land (23)
2 Bayou
3 Dark Depths
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
2 Snow-Covered Forest
2 Snow-Covered Swamp
3 Thespian's Stage
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

SB: 1 Ashen Rider
SB: 1 Bayou
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Dark Depths
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Maze of Ith
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
SB: 1 Sylvan Safekeeper
SB: 1 Thespian's Stage
SB: 1 Vampire Hexmage
SB: 1 Viridian Shaman
SB: 1 Wasteland
SB: 1 Yixlid Jailer


Thinking about losing Hymn for a Rite of Consumption and maybe another Expedition Map, but Hymn has been rocking.

Anyone like Exploration?

[Chatto]

(...)

Anyone like Exploration?

Nice list! And yes, I like Exploration... Still looking for a solid brew.

[adrieng]

I don't like your list you play only 8 green source and you do play forest which you should avoid. You want to side out Not Of this World against blue decks without white which you can't because of submerge and you play forest.
I have found 10-11 with 4 map is the minimum to get a passable mana base; and I still sometimes have issues. Playing wasteland+needle is wrong cause you can't name wasteland on needle.
LW is bad too slow you take out 3 cards that are directly active (stage+dark depth+vampire) to play 4 cards that have to pay 1G to search for something and that makes the side so worse.
Didn't test noxious revival might be playable if you expect surgical extraction or reanimator but i don't like it, card disadvantage
Hymn is bad you don't take the cards you want to get ride off.
Your list is bad though the power of the deck (redondancy) made you finished second out of 40.
Also playing loam without having acces of ways to kill DRS is wrong that's a reason of not playing lftl, other ways go with punishing fire.

[PhyrexianPossum]

I really, really like Living Wish just because of its toolbox utility.

I don't want to splash red for Punishing Fire. I'm keeping it B/G (mostly for budget reasons.

How does this look? Without Living wish, looks more consistent but substantially less powerful than the Wish version:


//Artifact (4)
4 Expedition Map

//Creature (4)
4 Vampire Hexmage

//Enchantment (4)
4 Exploration

//Instant (4)
4 Crop Rotation

//Sorcery (16)
4 Into the North
4 Life from the Loam
4 Smallpox
4 Sylvan Scrying

//Land (28)
1 Barren Moor
3 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Dark Depths
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Maze of Ith
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1 Snow-Covered Forest
4 Thespian's Stage
1 Tranquil Thicket
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills

[Chatto]

Well, I liked the first build... it is slow, yes, and I tried LW as well just to be frustrated with how slow it is... I however don't like this build so much, PhyrexianPossum :smile:

- 3 LftL should be enough,
- 2 Into the North should be enough,
- Exploration means speed, so I would definitely play some Mox Diamond,
- Why Smallpox? If you really want to play that card, just play Loam Pox.

For reference, my own build:

Spells (22)
3 Exploration
3 Life from the Loam
4 Crop Rotation
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Expedition Map
4 Abrupt Decay

Other (12)
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Diamond
4 Pithing Needle

Land (26)
1 Karakas
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Maze of Ith
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Barren Moor
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Bayou
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 ?

The four lands would probably be a mix of cyclelands, perhaps a Bojuka Bog and basics. And... yes, my love for Lotus Petal and Abrupt Decay runs deep :cool: However, I can see me dropping the Lotus Petal for consistancy, something like Vampire Hexmage

EDIT: Living Wish would be great in this build, of course!

[frafen]

I don't like your list you play only 8 green source and you do play forest which you should avoid. You want to side out Not Of this World against blue decks without white which you can't because of submerge and you play forest.
I have found 10-11 with 4 map is the minimum to get a passable mana base; and I still sometimes have issues. Playing wasteland+needle is wrong cause you can't name wasteland on needle.
LW is bad too slow you take out 3 cards that are directly active (stage+dark depth+vampire) to play 4 cards that have to pay 1G to search for something and that makes the side so worse.
Didn't test noxious revival might be playable if you expect surgical extraction or reanimator but i don't like it, card disadvantage
Hymn is bad you don't take the cards you want to get ride off.
Your list is bad though the power of the deck (redondancy) made you finished second out of 40.
Also playing loam without having acces of ways to kill DRS is wrong that's a reason of not playing lftl, other ways go with punishing fire.I agree, the manabase needs at least 14 green sources (including expedition map, but I don't like very much the idea of paing :3: for mana fixing) if you want to see one in your starting hand consistently.

You say that Living Wish is "bad too slow", while on paper is a Sylvan Scrying that can grab also Vampire Hexmage. It's true that to play Wish you have to cut some combo pieces, but on the other hand you low the odds of bad draws like Trespian Stage and Vampire Hexmage (without Depths) and so you rise the consistency and the flexibility (you can take silver bullets from sideboard if needed).

[PhyrexianPossum]

Well, I liked the first build... it is slow, yes, and I tried LW as well just to be frustrated with how slow it is... I however don't like this build so much, PhyrexianPossum :smile:

- 3 LftL should be enough,
- 2 Into the North should be enough,
- Exploration means speed, so I would definitely play some Mox Diamond,
- Why Smallpox? If you really want to play that card, just play Loam Pox.

For reference, my own build:

Spells (22)
3 Exploration
3 Life from the Loam
4 Crop Rotation
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Expedition Map
4 Abrupt Decay

Other (12)
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Diamond
4 Pithing Needle

Land (26)
1 Karakas
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Maze of Ith
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Barren Moor
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Bayou
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 ?

The four lands would probably be a mix of cyclelands, perhaps a Bojuka Bog and basics. And... yes, my love for Lotus Petal and Abrupt Decay runs deep :cool: However, I can see me dropping the Lotus Petal for consistancy, something like Vampire Hexmage

EDIT: Living Wish would be great in this build, of course!

Why not Into the North?

[Chatto]

Why not Into the North?

I said two, but that's just because I think that the card does not neccesarily speed you up. Now in my build I wanted to make room for other valuecards like LftL. However, I found the following decktech: http://youtu.be/HZpq-GkksmU

It basically packs 4 of Expedition Map, Sylvan Scrying, and Into the North. It also packs one Forest, using a Rainbow-manabase. I really thought with four Not from This World you at least have some protection. So Adrieng, I will be reforming my manabase just like you said, and maybe I will like it :smile: Oh, and it has three copies of Fling main.

[PhyrexianPossum]

I've built a new version; less like Lands Control and more Turbo Depths, aiming to go as fast as possible.


//Artifact (11)
3 Expedition Map
4 Lotus Petal
4 Pithing Needle

//Creature (8)
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Vampire Hexmage

//Instant (4)
4 Crop Rotation

//Sorcery (12)
3 Into the North
1 Rite of Consumption
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Thoughtseize

//Tribal Instant (3)
3 Not of This World

//Land (22)
4 Bayou
4 Dark Depths
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Sideboard

3 Ashen Rider
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Dread of Night
3 Golgari Charm
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale


This version is much more consistent, and faster, than the Loam version. IT sometimes gets a turn 2 Marit Lage, usually averaging turn 3-4.

[adrieng]

You didn't build anything,
this version is old and has some issues mainly the death and taxes/maverick/miracle machups + as usual combo macthups, the side is garbage.
That's why you should play list with sylvan library+reb+toxic deluge.

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13347&iddeck=98039

[PhyrexianPossum]

You didn't build anything,
this version is old and has some issues mainly the death and taxes/maverick/miracle machups + as usual combo macthups, the side is garbage.
That's why you should play list with sylvan library+reb+toxic deluge.

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13347&iddeck=98039

Do you wanna give me a deck list? :smile:

[adrieng]

I posted my list the page before post (226) before, give it a try.

[PhyrexianPossum]

I'd rather not splash red, so Guttural Response is better for my build. It gets Force of Will, which is the main thing we want to counter anyways.

I also like Sensei's Divining Top better than Sylvan Library. They're both bad in multiples, though.


//Artifact (13)
2 Expedition Map
4 Lotus Petal
4 Pithing Needle
3 Sensei's Divining Top

//Creature (7)
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Vampire Hexmage

//Instant (6)
4 Crop Rotation
2 Guttural Response

//Sorcery (10)
3 Into the North
1 Rite of Consumption
4 Sylvan Scrying
2 Toxic Deluge

//Tribal Instant (3)
3 Not of This World

//Land (21)
4 Bayou
4 Dark Depths
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Maze of Ith
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
2 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
4 Thespian's Stage
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

[adrieng]

guttural response is no way the power of reb or pyroblast countering things like show and tell/snapcaster/jace or killing delvers is what makes it playable.
I don't play maindeck reb only for fow obviously.

Copperline gorge (3-4 dollar) and mana confluence (8 dollar) are not expensive cards if it is because of budget reasons ; and don't play these tops and put sylvan library
You want to name top vs miracle and +20 life (swords) + sylvan library is a combo.
.
As for shizo death's storehouse I think there is no reason to play it, if you want evasion you just tutor for sejiri steppe ; though there might be some situtations (vs death and taxes where you could need it but that doesn't happen anymore with toxic deluge).
Also you need a playset of Urborg tomb.

[Chatto]

guttural response is no way the power of reb or pyroblast countering things like show and tell/snapcaster/jace or killing delvers is what makes it playable.
I don't play maindeck reb only for fow obviously.

Copperline gorge (3-4 dollar) and mana confluence (8 dollar) are not expensive cards if it is because of budget reasons ; and don't play these tops and put sylvan library
You want to name top vs miracle and +20 life (swords) + sylvan library is a combo.
.
As for shizo death's storehouse I think there is no reason to play it, if you want evasion you just tutor for sejiri steppe ; though there might be some situtations (vs death and taxes where you could need it but that doesn't happen anymore with toxic deluge).
Also you need a playset of Urborg tomb.

You can also play City of Brass, which is a bit cheaper than Mana Confluence (and almost the same except for some technicalities), and Gemstone Mine (which has been mentioned before and is also cheap)

How did Innocent Blood worked for you, Adrieng?

[PhyrexianPossum]

adrieng, I'd really prefer a B/G only version. The Maelstrom Oulses are for Jaces and Counterbalances. Please help me improve upon it! :smile:


//Artifact (10)
2 Expedition Map
4 Lotus Petal
4 Pithing Needle

//Creature (7)
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Vampire Hexmage

//Enchantment (2)
2 Sylvan Library

//Instant (4)
4 Crop Rotation

//Sorcery (43)
34 Into the North
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Rite of Consumption
4 Sylvan Scrying
2 Toxic Deluge

//Tribal Instant (3)
3 Not of This World

//Land (21)
4 Bayou
4 Dark Depths
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Maze of Ith
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
2 Snow-Covered Forest
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

[adrieng]

How did Innocent Blood worked for you, Adrieng?
I have just tested them on cocka ~15 2/3 match so I don't have a lot of testing with them but they have been ok ; didn't played against any sneak show ; they have killed some goyfs/TNN/shaman/delver/thalia etc ... Though bad against young pyromancer.
Might go to a tornament this week end.


PhyrexianPossum
Playing 3cc spells without having acces to enough lands is bad, either plays more lands to avoid having spending spirit/petal to cast your pulse or don't play pulse/deluge. I'ld add at least 3 mora lands instead of guide and a fourth not of this world cause you don't have access to red to protect it for backup. Also play 4 map.



You can also play City of Brass, which is a bit cheaper than Mana Confluence
Yeah city of brass is cheaper than mana confluence but mana confluence is way better with urborg, tomb which is quite frequent to not lose some life's point tapping for black and also against rishadan port.

[Chatto]

Yeah city of brass is cheaper than mana confluence but mana confluence is way better with urborg, tomb which is quite frequent to not lose some life's point tapping for black and also against rishadan port.

Hence the minor technicalities, but if you spell them out they become huge :smile:

[adrieng]

Back from some tornament went to a disappointing 3-3 starting 3-0 ; beating 2-0 BWUdelver, 2-1 jundDepths, 2-0 patriot then losing 1-2 to omnishow then 1-2 to stoneblade (in game 3 had an active library with 35+life which get disenchanted eventually an other token get sworded and jace fatteselealed me) and 1-2 to omnishow.
What I know is that the innocent blood were terrible all day, I want my fourth library MVP card. Then what can I say I lost to omni-show maybe I have to rethink the side.
For sure I want the grudge the ratchet bomb and the bojuka bog, then some cards against combo. Don't know which ones are good enough for omni show/ant/reanimator/elf.
I think 'ill be playing the third toxic deluge main for sideboard space issues and a fourth reb maindeck.
Something like -3 innocent blood +1 library +1 reb + 1 toxic deluge and for the side -2 spirit -1 toxic deluge -2 cage -2 rest in peace +X cards ?
discard maybe ?