Modern Masters

[bruizar]

Clique, Sofi, Solas, Shackles, Confidant, KOTR, Spell Snare, Vial, Explosives, Loam, Blood Moon, Cryptic Command, Gifts, Path, Elspeth, Tarmogoyf?

Really? WOTC trying to catch some of that eternal money that SCG has been acquiring for the last couple of years? This is just blatant..

"Hey let's reprint EVERY staple card from the last 10 years and put them all in 1 set."

Guess I'm only going to acquire reserved list cards now...

[kiblast]

I guess you prefer 20 eur Cryptic Commands and 70 eur Goyfs?

[Higgs]

That was kind of the idea with Modern and this set wasn't it?

[bruizar]

This is chronicles 2.0 any way you spin it.

I dont mind reprints now and then, but modern masters might as well just have shop, bazaar and p9 in it.

[Barook]

That's the idea behind the set because the prices are insane. And I have no sympathy for SCG since they buy up the cases and sell them for 300$. Mythic rares aren't going to change the price anyway.

[bruizar]

This is not about sympathy, this is about wotc realizing that they are getting the short end o the financial stick selling boosterpacks. They realize that the contents of their packs are worth more than what they are selling for a couple of years later so they just make the packa more expensive and recycle cards that are not standard legal thus dont interfere with the block-ecosystem.

Edit:
For a cautious try they could have printed a lot less format staples. This really just looks like chronicles to me. They said they were going to be careful but this is just a 'hey fuck it lets make it so that a few boosterboxes lets u make any modern deck thats viable + legacy.

[JanoschEausH]

Well, as far as i have experiences before, the most time someone opens a booster pack the single cards being contained in the booster are less worth than what the person payed for it in the first place. Therefore selling booster packs seems profitable to me. (Especially Modern Masters).

[DLifshitz]

WOTC trying to catch some of that eternal money that SCG has been acquiring for the last couple of years?

If that is the entire point, then WotC is trying and failing, because the print run is so limited, while SCG (and, presumably, many other stores) will be selling this for well over double the amount that they themselves pay for it. Whereas a higher print run would give them proportionally more money.

[JanoschEausH]

... Whereas a higher print run would give them proportionally more money.

... and would impair their customer's satisfaction. Which in turn, would be leading to sinking sales figures. That is Marketing.

[DLifshitz]

... and would impair their customer's satisfaction.

Why would it? Honest question. I'm pretty sure that more people are bitching about how the print run is limited and SCG is jacking up prices than about the possibility of Bob and Goyf going down in value. The same thing happened with Commander's Arsenal, even WotC admitted that the print run was too low relative to demand.

Unless by "customers" you mean "traders who went and ignored the multiple announcements that there would be reprints and invested in cards thinking prices would be going up indefinitely." Of course such people exist, but they're a rare species.

[TheArchitect]

Oh no guys, WoTC the company that makes the game we all play and enjoy is making money! How dare they! And whats worse is their doing it by printing an interesting limited product that will also make the game slightly less expensive for all of us. This is truely terrible news!

[Stoyrm]

Are you guys actually pissed that they are reprinting cards and making them somewhat more accesible (and probably not that much cheaper)? Chronicles 2? This is not going to sink the value of all the cards printed in MM and other Editions. Get over your self, i'd rather have a Legacy Masters where they printed the shit out of Duals making them worth 10$ each. That way everyone could play Legacy and you get rid of this elitist behaviour. I am very happy that they are doing it this way and i hope to god that they print Thoughtseize at uncommon, give you something to whine about; 70$ to 10$ woop!

Printing more of this set would increase sales, because boxes would be cheaper and people wouldn't need to hold onto it to make money. They would alienate elitists who treat their cards like they are a collectible that only they should be allowed to have, but everyone that actually has the chance to get into Modern (and perhaps Legacy due to cheaper card pool) would love it. I have all the staples in MM, and if they all fall significantly in value that's fine. I intend to keep all my cards anyway; If you are out to make a profit of your cliques and swords then perhaps you should have bargained with reserved list cards. This is a trading card game, and the cards are not on the reserved list, it's a stock market with the same risks as a normal stock market. If you play the game then you've got to accept that not everything is going to fall your way.

MM is the best thing that has happened in a very long time in the way that they show their willingness to reprint cards that everyone wants and needs.

[swoop]

Ditto.

Somehow I doubt the print is "limited" as much as they announced it at first. Also, who cares?

I want goyfs, need 2 more cliques, and some vials and other shit to finish up my decks.

[Megadeus]

I love this. I mean if you are mad that your Non reserve list staples aregoing down in value then why didn't you buy RL cards? I'm confused

[dsck]

Bruizar, the guy who argued that burn is not linear deck is not happy that wotc makes legacy (and modern) staples more available to everyone. I hope nobody takes him seriously.

[Arsenal]

Gonna pick up a playset of cryptic commands for modern. Happy to see a high concentration of playable cards in this set so far.

[Koby]

This set is fantastic! It allows us to spot who really cares about playing the older formats and who care about the value of their fiat cardboard collection.

I for one would immensely enjoy a Legacy Masters with duals and fetches and all our Legacy staples without question. It doesn't matter if your Underground Sea is worth $200 if no one can afford to play.

Most of the cards in question are mythic, which means we won't see them often enough in cracking packs of Modern Masters, but at least WotC is making a good move by reprinting them (like they said they would ever since they put a cap to the Reserve List with Mercadian Masques).

I do find two things humorous about the set:
1) Modern Masters set acronym is the same as Mercadian Masques (where the Reserve List was capped)
2) Kamigawa dragon cycle at Mythic is analogous to the Elder Dragon cycle from Chronicles.

And here we thought that WotC had no sense of humor.

[Shawon]

I really, really hope Mox Opal is in Modern Masters.

[Undomian]

I really, really hope Mox Opal is in Modern Masters.

Its already confirmed not to be, the set only goes up to Alara block.

[phonics]

This set is fantastic! It allows us to spot who really cares about playing the older formats and who care about the value of their fiat cardboard collection.

I for one would immensely enjoy a Legacy Masters with duals and fetches and all our Legacy staples without question. It doesn't matter if your Underground Sea is worth $200 if no one can afford to play.

Most of the cards in question are mythic, which means we won't see them often enough in cracking packs of Modern Masters, but at least WotC is making a good move by reprinting them (like they said they would ever since they put a cap to the Reserve List with Mercadian Masques).

I do find two things humorous about the set:
1) Modern Masters set acronym is the same as Mercadian Masques (where the Reserve List was capped)
2) Kamigawa dragon cycle at Mythic is analogous to the Elder Dragon cycle from Chronicles.

And here we thought that WotC had no sense of humor.
Last joke they should pull is "you thought it was just limited print run? Just kidding, staples for EVERYONE!"

[Shawon]

Its already confirmed not to be, the set only goes up to Alara block.

Dreams crushed. On another note, I'm happy with the rares they are choosing to reprint, especially Mirrodin rares like Explosives and Swords of Element and Element and Ravager. Confidant, Clique, and Extirpates are pretty good news too.

[[SLAYER]chaos]

Modern Masters is going to be loads of fun to draft. Plus afterwards you'll end up with Legacy and Modern staples instead of a pile of worthless cards. What's not to love about this set?

[DroidX]

This set is fantastic! It allows us to spot who really cares about playing the older formats and who care about the value of their fiat cardboard collection.

I for one would immensely enjoy a Legacy Masters with duals and fetches and all our Legacy staples without question. It doesn't matter if your Underground Sea is worth $200 if no one can afford to play.

Most of the cards in question are mythic, which means we won't see them often enough in cracking packs of Modern Masters, but at least WotC is making a good move by reprinting them (like they said they would ever since they put a cap to the Reserve List with Mercadian Masques).

I do find two things humorous about the set:
1) Modern Masters set acronym is the same as Mercadian Masques (where the Reserve List was capped)
2) Kamigawa dragon cycle at Mythic is analogous to the Elder Dragon cycle from Chronicles.

And here we thought that WotC had no sense of humor.


O.o Just now realized this...Sneaky Sneaky Wizards

[zulander]

Clique, Sofi, Solas, Shackles, Confidant, KOTR, Spell Snare, Vial, Explosives, Loam, Blood Moon, Cryptic Command, Gifts, Path, Elspeth, Tarmogoyf?

Really? WOTC trying to catch some of that eternal money that SCG has been acquiring for the last couple of years? This is just blatant..

"Hey let's reprint EVERY staple card from the last 10 years and put them all in 1 set."

Guess I'm only going to acquire reserved list cards now...

QQ

[zulander]

Last joke they should pull is "you thought it was just limited print run? Just kidding, staples for EVERYONE!"

The store out here is getting at least 25 boxes. I doubt it's as limited as people believe.

[sroncor1]

This set is the best thing Wizards has done for Magic since before Rosewater worked for them. Not only does the set already look like a blast to play, new players can pull so many playable cards for all formats. Fuck it , if some of my cards drop in value. Remember if nobody plays the game the cards aren't worth much at all. I can not wait to play some limited with these packs.

Seth

[DrJones]

I don't think I'll have the chance to draft this set more than once, but I'll try to play as many as I can.

[(nameless one)]

I hope they add uncommon dragons in the set too so I can draft a Dragonstorm deck!

[Barook]

Is Modern Masters also released on MTGO?

[apple713]

values wont be crushed. Take the Ravinca and the Return to Ravinca Shocklands. The older ones still hold a premium to the new ones.

[lordofthepit]

This might be the first set I ever draft, if prices don't go too out of control.

[Megadeus]

Allot of store in our area are getting upwards of a hundred boxes I believe. I hope to draft it at least once

[Aggro_zombies]

This might be the first set I ever draft, if prices don't go too out of control.
Seeing BG Dredge as a supported draft archetype just made my day. Drafting this for sure.

[swoop]

May 27th 7:35 Reveillark
May 27th 7:35 Tombstalker
May 27th 7:35 Bridge from Below
May 27th 7:35 Earwig Squad
May 27th 7:35 Terramorphic Expanse
May 27th 7:35 Dakmor Salvage
May 27th 7:35 Blinkmoth Nexus
May 27th 7:35 Countryside Crusher
May 27th 7:35 Maelstrom Pulse

I'd prefer Mutavault over Blinkmoth, but hey. Also, Remand, where are you?

[bruizar]

@ all the haters:

My cards arent affected cause i only have foil original set versions of the staples. My point is that everyone that owns the majority of legacy viable cards has gone to great lengths to acquire them and this is basically a big middle finger yo the most commited players. Accessibility is all fine, but most of you havent been around since legends to see what the effect of chroncles on the game. The problem was that so many staples were reprinted that the entire economy crashed causing many of the most commited players to abandon the game. Between chronicles fallen empires and homelands the future of the game was in jeopardy.

Modern masters is a great breach of trust, because nothing that is on the reserved list is safe from reprints. An occasional reprint is fine, thats not the point, but when you reprint nigh all staples in one set, the game is on a trajectory that I don't think is healthy. This in't even speulation because we saw this with chronicles.

Hella caretaker, killerbees, city of brass, mishras factory, ernham djinn and so many other then-staples totally crashed. Today we have foils which protect the investment because pimps will always opt for original set foils, but i truly fear the worst for people that have spent 20$ for a staple card ony to see it drop to 2$ in the future due to excessive reprints. #birdsofparadise

[Koby]

blah blah blah

18 years later, City of Brass from Arabian Nights is still worth $40 compared to the $5 5th Edition version.

Your post just exposes you as someone who would rather see cards rise in price so high as to prevent people from being able to play.

[Julian23]

@bruizar:

I really appreciate the time you put in to give a reasonable explanation why you think MM is bad for the game as a whole. Looking at it, I still think that the benefits of making the game accessible for new players outweight the proposed negative impact on players leaving the game because of proposed tanking prices. We don't have hard numbers on this so it's rather hard to compare but from my (anecdotical) experience, about 80% of current players love seeing reprints of staples despite the financial loss. If you really cared about your cards losing value, you got rid off them months ago. Even now, e.g. Tarmogoyf has only seen a slight decrease of priece, about 10-15% on magiccardsmarket.eu. In Eternal formats, reprints are what keeps a format alive. I recently considered selling off a lot of my stuff because I had a feeling the format would be collapsing within the next 1-2 years. Seeing reprints, I have changed my mind.

[bruizar]

18 years later, City of Brass from Arabian Nights is still worth $40 compared to the $5 5th Edition version.

Your post just exposes you as someone who would rather see cards rise in price so high as to prevent people from being able to play.

Well, compare an city of brass to bazaar or library of alexandria. Compare sylvan library to the anyss
Or tabernacle. I think those would be prices for these cards were they never reprinted. I dont want card prices to rise but hat i do want is some protection for people who were forced to pay 150 $ for a card only to see the card crash. Many years after the initial crash of chronicles things have stabilized, but consider yourself the guy that buys a playsetof moats at its current price so you can play dutch stax, now that card is printed in modern masters (hypothetically).. These reprits should occur before a major rise in price so that people who cough up the money to play with that deck and commit over 1000 euros for a playset, don't get nailed in the ass for it.

Ps replying on iphone so bare with me

[(nameless one)]

@ bruizar

Breach of trust? I am sure it's what Modern players asked for: to have an eternal format where supply isn't limited to a point that no one could play it.

Why would you complain if you got something you asked for? Are you slow? People like you are the reason why WotC is "dumbing" down the game. If you don't get the concept of why Modern and why Modern Masters are created, you probably do not get the concept of mana burn or stack manipulation.

Also, I will take back and eat what I said if you send me an Alpha Birds of Paradise. I mean, it's only under $2 right?

Edit:

Compare City of Brass and Library of Alexandria/Bazaar of Baghdad. Which one sees heavy play in Vintage. Which one is banned in Legacy because it's too damn good?

[bruizar]

@bruizar:

I really appreciate the time you put in to give a reasonable explanation why you think MM is bad for the game as a whole. Looking at it, I still think that the benefits of making the game accessible for new players outweight the proposed negative impact on players leaving the game because of proposed tanking prices. We don't have hard numbers on this so it's rather hard to compare but from my (anecdotical) experience, about 80% of current players love seeing reprints of staples despite the financial loss. If you really cared about your cards losing value, you got rid off them months ago. Even now, e.g. Tarmogoyf has only seen a slight decrease of priece, about 10-15% on magiccardsmarket.eu. In Eternal formats, reprints are what keeps a format alive. I recently considered selling off a lot of my stuff because I had a feeling the format would be collapsing within the next 1-2 years. Seeing reprints, I have changed my mind.

Im all for reprints, but this strikes me as going overboard. It feels like a mass expdus. Perhaps i am over panicking, and if that is so, than by all means ill take my words back and admit i was wrong. Modern masters feels a little bit like fighting a phalanx with a nuke.

I wont be surprised that the marketing trick of wotc is to spoil all the hardcore modern and legacy staples first so that people will preorder like crazy, only to have the second half of the set consist of craprares.

On goyf:
Original goyf will decrease slightly, foil goyf will increase to more than it is right now imo.

[bruizar]

Also, I will take back and eat what I said if you send me an Alpha Birds of Paradise. I mean, it's only under $2

Whatdid i say about original set cards?

Alpha anything is worth insane amounts. Dont try to argue about magic economy with me, because you willlose that argument.

[bruizar]

Fyi: Revised and unlimited can be considered no foil versions of. Beta, alpha's price comes from extremely old age and very limited availability and being the first set. This, in terms of price stickyness.

7th foils are also an exception since they are the only Foil versions woth the old border, and original foil version always retains its price compared to nonfoil.

/mtgeconomy101

[TheArchitect]

Breach of trust? With the announcement of Modern, WoTC promised they'd be reprinting the staples to make the format more accessible. NOT reprinting all the money cards would have been a breach of trust.

I've been slowly acquiring legacy staples over the past 5 years on a pretty tight budget. I've worked hard for my duals, jaces, FoWs, etc. But I would be overjoyed if they all became worthless overnight if it meant they were getting reprinted.

Also, tbh, I dont think this will change the price of the mythics reprinted all (goyf, bob, clique). Sure kitchen finks and path to exile might go down 50%. But Id be surprised if goyf went down by more than 10$.

[Honorik]

First of all, the game in almost any from is really expensive. Sorry, but 2 - 3 drafts cost the same price as a brand new PC game and a top deck for standard is around the price of a new gaming machine. When I am putting so much money in some form of hobby/game I want my investement to worth something even after years or when I want to quit the game. For example I don't feel save to play Standard or Modern - what's the point to spend 1000 $ for a Modern Jund deck, when they can reprint everything and the price drop to 500 $ ? I am not so reach to play those formats.

So I have my save place in the form of reserved list and I don't want to be abolished. Cannot see how I am spending 50 $ on a Baneslayer Angel and see it drop to 10 one year later.

I know that's a game and not an investment, but this game is a way to expensive in general to have my cards crash in price.

[Julian23]

what's the point to spend 1000 $ for a Modern Jund deck, when they can reprint everything and the price drop to 500 $ ? I am not so reach to play those formats.

No offense, but if this is such a substantial problem for you, like investing 500$ into your hobby in order to practice it for years, playing Magic competitively maybe just isn't suitable for you. It's ever harsher with computers. A new machine that costs you 2.000$ will usually be worth less than 1.000$ 1-2 years later. Buying into a hobby that's actually too expensive for you will never work for anything other than in the short run. That's why I like the reprints — they provide confidence that a format will be sustainable and affordable in the long run and allow for a continous influx of new blood. I'm really sorry for the people who financially depended on being able to sell off their collection in times of need (and let's be honest here, they still easily can..sans T2-only cards like BSE etc.) but buying deeply into Magic on a tight budget, playing it for a long time and then complaining about decreasing value is pretty unfair — You got a lot more use and joy out of your cards than from e.g. stocks.

[_Fortune_]

No offense, but if this is such a substantial problem for you, like investing 500$ into your hobby in order to practice it for years, playing Magic competitively maybe just isn't suitable for you. It's ever harsher with computers. A new machine that costs you 2.000$ will usually be worth less than 1.000$ 1-2 years later. Buying into a hobby that's actually too expensive for you will never work for anything other than in the short run. That's why I like the reprints — they provide confidence that a format will be sustainable and affordable in the long run and allow for a continous influx of new blood. I'm really sorry for the people who financially depended on being able to sell off their collection in times of need (and let's be honest here, they still easily can..sans T2-only cards like BSE etc.) but buying deeply into Magic on a tight budget, playing it for a long time and then complaining about decreasing value is pretty unfair — You got a lot more use and joy out of your cards than from e.g. stocks.

I totally agree. I have a foil playsets of most of the cards being released in MM and welcome the reprints. For me, the devaluation of my own cards is more than offset by making the format more accessible. I'd much rather go to my LGS and see 16 players weekly than 8, and honestly, I'm likely never going to sell my collection, so tracking prices of cards I already own is meaningless for me.

[Honorik]

No offense, but if this is such a substantial problem for you, like investing 500$ into your hobby in order to practice it for years, playing Magic competitively maybe just isn't suitable for you.

Nope. Investing 200 $ in a set of Baneslayer Angels so I can play competitive Standard and after 1 year they reprinted it so the price drop to 40 $ is a total non - sense to me. Do you realize that this amount of money is absolutely crazy for set of cards that are not an eternal staple and could be reprinted any time ?

Yes, it cost me around 5 years, starting in 2006, to aquire my Legacy collection with 40 duals and most of the other staples. The only motive behind this was that I am not wasting my money on something that could be reprinted and drop in price (in the case of the reserved list cards). If I am investing so much money and time in to a hobby I want at least some form of security, that my efforts do not disapear after one big set with reprints. That why I was always doubtful about the non-reserved list cards.


That's why I like the reprints — they provide confidence that a format will be sustainable and affordable in the long run and allow for a continous influx of new blood

If they abolish the reserved list or reprint Jace 2.0 in a normal set i am done with the game.
In general I think that they should create a new eternal Modern Modern format after several years. The price of those staples like BoB with still rise after MM.

[Julian23]

Nope. Investing 200 $ in a set of Baneslayer Angels so I can play competitive Standard and after 1 year they...
In all fairness, you might want to re-read my post. I despise the monetary nature of Standard and even specifically adress BSE. The way it has been for years, Standard is the rich man's format when played seriously competitively.


The only motive behind this was that I am not wasting my money on something that could be reprinted and drop in price...
As opposed to primarily being concerned about actually playing the format? The more valueable your Eternal collection, the less you are getting out of it with regards to playing the game. It's a slow but killing process.


If I am investing so much money and time in to a hobby I want at least some form of security, that my efforts do not disapear after one big set with reprints.
I see what you are worried about. Truth is, you never had nor will you ever have that kind of "security" — neither through the reserved list nor through anything else. On top: even with reprints, what do you think is gonna happen to your FBB Usea? I can see where this feeling of being entitled to your cards not dropping -20% in value is coming from. What I say is that while it's desireable and ok, it is not justified. You bought a game after all. Play it or don't play it.

I also don't have money to just throw around for kicks. But I'd much rather play Legacy every week at different events instead of only BoM-like tournaments once a year.


If they abolish the reserved list or reprint Jace 2.0 in a normal set i am done with the game.
If you don't enjoy playing after that, it's ok.


In general I think that they should create a new eternal Modern Modern format after several years.
If you are really concerned about the worth of your cards, that's the last thing you want. Creating continously more irrelevant formats would be even worse than Post-Standard price drops.

[joemauer]

Oh no!!

Modern Masters may cause investors to leave the game, only to be replaced with new players that can now afford the game!!! Aaahh!! What are we going to do!!

This could create a chain reaction where so many investors leave that too many new players start playing Modern and possibly even *gulp* Legacy!

New players suck and investors are the lifeblood of the game. What are we going to do!!!!

[Lemnear]

In other words Honorik: you buy hyped cards at the high of their popularity and rage if they drop in Price after the hike, if they get a reprint in Core Sets/Special Releases, if they are outmodeled by newer releases or rotate out of standard.

gz, those are 4 out of 5 natural reasons (B&R being the 5) for price declines. Are you sure this is the right game for you?

[Barook]

The price of those staples like BoB with still rise after MM.
We'll have to wait and see how MM is received. But since the reception is probably going to be pretty good, I can see MM 2, 3, etc happen to keep prices in a sane realm.

And while there lots of goodies in MM, Thoughtseize might not be one of them. Maybe it's getting reprinted in M14 or FTV: 20, since it seems odd to reprint pretty much every staple except the most used discard spell.

[Honorik]

As opposed to primarily being concerned about actually playing the format? The more valueable your Eternal collection, the less you are getting out of it with regards to playing the game. It's a slow but killing process.

To be honest I really don't care if I can play more or not. It's ok for me to have one GP and BoM every year here in Europe. The amount of Revised duals is not so low amd cannot see how the formal will die any time soon. It's not like Vintage.



I see what you are worried about. Truth is, you never had nor will you ever have that kind of "security" — neither through the reserved list nor through anything else. On top: even with reprints, what do you think is gonna happen to your FBB Usea? I can see where this feeling of being entitled to your cards not dropping -20% in value is coming from. What I say is that while it's desireable and ok, it is not justified. You bought a game after all. Play it or don't play it.

Just look what happen with Loyal Retainers from Portals after Commander's Arsenal really limited print run - it loose 50 - 70 $.


I also don't have money to just throw around for kicks. But I'd much rather play Legacy every week at different events instead of only BoM-like tournaments once a year.

It's OK for me, as I said.


If you don't enjoy playing after that, it's ok.

I cannot enjoy the collectible card game, when some random kid play with M15 Tundra, just opened from a fresh pack.

[Lemnear]

Loyal Retainers lost most of it's value after Survival was banned tbh. Since then the price was pretty much the same and took a minor drop after the CA foil print was released

[Megadeus]

I can't enjoy a card game becAuse other people have new versions of my old card!

[Barook]

Maybe I'm missing something, but Retainers pretty much kept its value (http://ark42.com/mtg/pricehistory.php?s=Portal+Three+Kingdoms&c=Loyal+Retainers&d=0) while the Arsenal reprint was never worth much due to low demand anyway.

Old print runs of staples in demand aren't going anyway. The entire outcry is pretty laughable. The only thing it could do is prevent massive price bubbles due to speculators driving up the price.

[Lemnear]

Maybe I'm missing something, but Retainers pretty much kept its value (http://ark42.com/mtg/pricehistory.php?s=Portal+Three+Kingdoms&c=Loyal+Retainers&d=0) while the Arsenal reprint was never worth much due to low demand anyway.

Old print runs of staples in demand aren't going anyway. The entire outcry is pretty laughable. The only thing it could do is prevent massive price bubbles due to speculators driving up the price.

During it's high-time in GW Survial with Iona/Emrakul the P3K Version was 140€ on MCM, dropped to ~70 after the banning of survival and Today a englisch nm copy is 50-60€. The CA Version floats at 25€ atm

[Dan Turner]

First and foremost Magic: The gathering is a game.

If you are using it as an investment strategy then go for stuff that no matter what will never be reprinted.

I would recommend for investment purposes unique items:

Graded Beta
Rare pimp: Foil staples, Japanese, Korean, russian
Sealed out of print product like beta starters

Single cards even reserved list items always have a chance of being reprinted. One day we may all awake on a Monday and find out Hasbro/WOTC was purchased by another company with no legal standing to comply with the reserved list. Would I be upset that my Black lotus and other power was worth a little less: yes. Would I be upset that duals tanked down to $30 or so each: Yes. I would be more excited to be able to play the cards I purchased due to a growing player base.

Using single cards as an investment strategy is sort of dumb. Standard staples when they are needed will always skyrocket. If you are buying into standard you need to understand that your cards that are $60 now may very well be $10 tomorrow. Card price is not just dictated by rarity it is also dictated by demand. If the card is no longer a viable piece for a deck everyone will be dumping it tanking the price.


Modern was announced as an eternal format without the reserved list issue. Wizards made it clear that cards would be re-printed to meet demand. Now we have people complaining because Wizards as a company has made a choice with a product they own, a choice that they stated they would do before many of these prices spiked. If you "invested" in modern then you pretty much fucked yourself. Modern is meant to be an eternal format with a low barrier for entry compared to Legacy and Vintage. It was not meant to be a format where people hoard staples hoping to double or triple their money. I would recommend if you have more then you need of non-reserved list stuff to move them when you can.


I think Modern Master's is a great way for Wizards to strike back at card hoarder/investors. These type of players are what is wrong with Magic.

I personally hope they keep doing it every year with staples to slowly bring the price down to a reasonable level. I have no issue with $20 top level cards like Bob and goyf but that should be the upper end for most non-standard staples.

[MirrorMask]

Jace 2.0 is not on the reserved list and they can reprint it anytime they want and however they see fit. You knew that and you "invested" in that card despite the fact. It's the nature of the game-deal with it. We won't miss you anyway.

P.s even the reserved list should go away but that's another discussion

[sdematt]

Man, I might actually be able to play Modern with this set being released. /Accessibility

-Matt

[clavio]

I only own one legacy deck right now (high tide!) and I'd be a little upset if I woke up one day and there was an announcement for From the Vault: Candles. But I really don't see Modern Masters affecting prices too much, $140 goyf isn't suddenly going to be worth $50. If Modern Masters makes Modern more affordable for ~16 years old that would be great. It's a bummer that Confidant is mythic.

Also why are Modern cards so damn expensive? I get that Legacy is so expensive because the Dual Lands are quite scarce and there aren't going to be any more, but these prices are out of control. I played Extended back in the day and there weren't any $50 cards. There were very few $15 cards.


Man, I might actually be able to play Modern with this set being released. /Accessibility

-Matt

lol

[sdematt]

lol

My thing is, i don't want to have to buy in again for English Staples to run a stupid Modern deck. Ideally, I'll buy my box, and get a bunch of staples so I can build a deck.

-Matt

[Darkenslight]

My thing is, i don't want to have to buy in again for English Staples to run a stupid Modern deck. Ideally, I'll buy my box, and get a bunch of staples so I can build a deck.

-Matt

Try a case. :laugh:

[PirateKing]

You get what, 3 mythics per box? And then 2 of them will probably be shitty Spirit Dragons

[Julian23]

I think it's only 1-2 Mythics per box considering that MM boxes are only 24 pax.

[clavio]

My thing is, i don't want to have to buy in again for English Staples to run a stupid Modern deck. Ideally, I'll buy my box, and get a bunch of staples so I can build a deck.

-Matt

Pretty sure you could trade one of your super pimp cards for playsets of everything in Modern.

[ankharlyn]

I love how people that have this mentality "OH NOES REPRINTS WAAAHHHH QQ" can't explain how exactly cards being so expensive no one can afford to play is supposed to "keep the game alive" or that doing the opposite will "kill the game overnight". Oh wait, I know why, because that shit is retardedly absurd and has no basis in reality!

Modern Masters doesn't go far enough, and won't even affect the value of the reprinted cards anyway.

[Honorik]

Yes, it's a game but not so many table games have so high price tag ? Chess, Bridge, Go! ?!? Any board game or DnD ?

Magic is an very, very expensive game, may be only Warhammer is on the same level as a similar one. But this is the nature of the game and it seems Wizards keep following this model for twenty years. In the same time without the reserved list the game will just disappear for many peoples - not all of us want to play Standard or Modern and have their cards, acquired with many efforts to become worthless.

And when someone buy a Tarmogoyf or a Underground Sea for 150 $ today or lets say Jace it's high price, when it was Standard legal, You cannot tell him - "Hey mate, We are sorry for You, but we have the same card for 10 bucks! It was just reprinted in M15, but You can still have your Revised white border dual". Do you realize that's this is just absurd ?!

The price of staples continue to be really high. Just look 3 years back you can see multiple cards at 30$ (Zendicar fethces)to up to 150 $ (Jace2.0). It's not our fault as a players for this absurd prices. If Jace 2.0 was a rare and Misty Rainforest was an uncommon ? But if someone catch this cards already on this prices and buy them from the secondary market they need to guaranteed the prices in the feature will not change a lot. If they change drastically this a pure scam if You ask me.

[ankharlyn]

And when someone buy a Tarmogoyf or a Underground Sea for 150 $ today or lets say Jace it's high price, when it was Standard legal, You cannot tell him - "Hey mate, We are sorry for You, but we have the same card for 10 bucks! It was just reprinted in M15, but You can still have your Revised white border dual". Do you realize that's this is just absurd ?!



I have to call bullshit on this often spewed nonsense. Yes, you can say "Hey guy that paid $150 for a REVISED Underground Sea, there is also a new printing of it, which is not 20 years old and thus not worth the same amount due to collectibility."

I see no problem with that.

Further, people that act like cards being expensive = good for the game are simply wrong and it's trivially easy to prove. If that absurdly incorrect mentality were even remotely right, Vintage would be the *MOST* popular format. It's not, it's the least popular format.

High card prices = less popularity, not more. If no one can afford the cards to play, the collectible aspect evaporates (Wanna know how much the best card in the Dune TCG is worth? $0 because no one fucking plays the game). So keep in mind, advocating them to keep making it harder and harder to actually play this game is a surefire way to make your cards worth nothing.

[bruizar]

Yes, it's a game but not so many table games have so high price tag ? Chess, Bridge, Go! ?!? Any board game or DnD ?

Magic is an very, very expensive game, may be only Warhammer is on the same level as a similar one. But this is the nature of the game and it seems Wizards keep following this model for twenty years. In the same time without the reserved list the game will just disappear for many peoples - not all of us want to play Standard or Modern and have their cards, acquired with many efforts to become worthless.

And when someone buy a Tarmogoyf or a Underground Sea for 150 $ today or lets say Jace it's high price, when it was Standard legal, You cannot tell him - "Hey mate, We are sorry for You, but we have the same card for 10 bucks! It was just reprinted in M15, but You can still have your Revised white border dual". Do you realize that's this is just absurd ?!

The price of staples continue to be really high. Just look 3 years back you can see multiple cards at 30$ (Zendicar fethces)to up to 150 $ (Jace2.0). It's not our fault as a players for this absurd prices. If Jace 2.0 was a rare and Misty Rainforest was an uncommon ? But if someone catch this cards already on this prices and buy them from the secondary market they need to guaranteed the prices in the feature will not change a lot. If they change drastically this a pure scam if You ask me.

I agree completely with your viewpoint. The hobby is already past the point of reasonable prices and this is not bad per se. If tou want to play magic you need to tie up a lot of your cash in cards. That is justifiable if you at least have some form of certainty that the cards wont drop too much over time, so that you know that when you need that cash, you can recoup it without taking a heavy hit.

If that security does not exist it really makes no sense at all to even acquire a single deck thus you might as well not play at all.
We all know hobbys cost money and thats okay, but when reprints cause the value entire collections to vaporize like what happened with chronicles, there is no sense in collecting cards or decks,or play at all.

[Mr. Safety]

I don't mind what Modern Masters does, whatever that might be. I went half-way with a buddy for a box (got one for $230) and that means I get 12 packs with a decent chance of getting that $115 in value back. Besides, we're going to do a mini-2-man draft and have a BLAST. The way I figure it, if we crack a foil Goyf, the box is paid for. If we crack a foil Bob, the box is mostly paid for. Regardless, we're going to have a crapload of PLAYABLE cards to use for EDH, Legacy, casual decks, and Modern should we ever get serious about integrating into that format.

I'm on the corporate bandwagon here...I like the set, and I'm excited to crack my packs.

[Arsenal]

I cannot enjoy the collectible card game, when some random kid play with M15 Tundra, just opened from a fresh pack.

Magic is first and foremost a game. Magic could survive if it was purely a game with no collectible/financial aspect to it. The financial aspect of Magic that you're so desperate to clutch onto could not survive without the gameplay aspect. You sound like one of the many speculators that are placing more importance on the collectible aspect than the game itself.

[ankharlyn]

Magic is first and foremost a game. Magic could survive if it was purely a game with no collectible/financial aspect to it. The financial aspect of Magic that you're so desperate to clutch onto could not survive without the gameplay aspect. You sound like one of the many speculators that are placing more importance on the collectible aspect than the game itself.

Well said, and quoted for truth. Magic as a speculation vehicle absolutely CANNOT exist without the game being popular. So people acting like that is the most important thing need to really reevaluate why they think Magic is their personal Fischer Price Stock Market and either off load their "investments" so people who actually give a damn about the game can use them, or realize that they and their speculation are irrelevant to both popularity and longevity of the game.

[lordofthepit]

Man, I might actually be able to play Modern with this set being released. /Accessibility

-Matt

You were always free to sling your dung and beat your chest too.

[Goin Aggro]

You were always free to sling your dung and beat your chest too.

But now the dung slinging and chest beating will be more affordable! (Hopefully)

[sdematt]

You were always free to sling your dung and beat your chest too.

I was, but I didn't want to. Maybe they'll unban all my favourite cards so I can enjoy the format, too. Maybe if I smear enough poop, my dreams will come true.

-Matt

[Megadeus]

I was, but I didn't want to. Maybe they'll unban all my favourite cards so I can enjoy the format, too. Maybe if I smear enough poop, my dreams will come true.

-Matt

If they were to be a little less ban happy I would probably play the format allot.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I agree completely with your viewpoint. The hobby is already past the point of reasonable prices and this is not bad per se. If tou want to play magic you need to tie up a lot of your cash in cards. That is justifiable if you at least have some form of certainty that the cards wont drop too much over time, so that you know that when you need that cash, you can recoup it without taking a heavy hit.

If that security does not exist it really makes no sense at all to even acquire a single deck thus you might as well not play at all.
We all know hobbys cost money and thats okay, but when reprints cause the value entire collections to vaporize like what happened with chronicles, there is no sense in collecting cards or decks,or play at all.

Jesus Christ. Weren't you just in another thread crying about cards being too expensive, now you are over here crying about cards being made more affordable.

[phonics]

It was pretty clear that their intention of making the modern format was to produce an eternal format that would (hopefully) not suffer from the reserved list like legacy. Even with the announcement of modern masters, there was more than enough time for anyone concerned about losing monetary value to get out of the market, or dump their relevant cards to pick up again after the reprints.

[bruizar]

It was pretty clear that their intention of making the modern format was to produce an eternal format that would (hopefully) not suffer from the reserved list like legacy. Even with the announcement of modern masters, there was more than enough time for anyone concerned about losing monetary value to get out of the market, or dump their relevant cards to pick up again after the reprints.

not really, since there were no spoilers yet.

[Whippoorwill]

not really, since there were no spoilers yet.

Waiting for spoilers to unload is just stupid since anything spoiled will have its buy price likely lowered by stores. Only people trying to pimp their decks will want an original (English) version over a cheaper reprinted version (unless it has fugly art like the new Kiki-Jiki).

Rather than waiting for spoilers, I sold off anything from Modern I wasn't using for Legacy and I'm more than happy with my decision.

[MirrorMask]

Yes, there was more than enough time. It's just that some people either chose to ignore it or were stupid enough to underestimate it. Wizards said it from the very beginning: "new, eternal format, w/o the reserved list, made with the intend to be more accessible". Of course and i expected many cards getting a reprint even in ONE set (MM in this case) and I expect even more in the following years(maybe a legacy one too? Hopefully...). How else would a reprints set sell if it wasn't full of good stuff? Will I buy it? No. I never buy sealed product but I like to hope that the singles' prices will go down by a considerable amount. Besides, if all staples go down by ...lets say... 30% nobody looses trading value. You can trade your stuff in the same way as before but you won't be able to sell it for as much. If you are in the game for the money then too bad, it's your problem. We are here to PLAY.

[Lord Seth]

I cannot enjoy the collectible card game, when some random kid play with M15 Tundra, just opened from a fresh pack.If a random kid having a different version of a card you have somehow makes you unable to enjoy the game, then most likely the problem is with you, not the game.

As someone else pointed out in another topic, it's like getting angry that people can easily obtain a copy of A Tale of Two Cities just because you happen to have a copy from the original printing.

[bruizar]

If a random kid having a different version of a card you have somehow makes you unable to enjoy the game, then most likely the problem is with you, not the game.

As someone else pointed out in another topic, it's like getting angry that people can easily obtain a copy of A Tale of Two Cities just because you happen to have a copy from the original printing.

Look at it the other way around. Do you become happy when you see somebody slinging beta duals on scglive? I do.

[phonics]

not really, since there were no spoilers yet.

Okay lets be real here, the set is called modern masters, and there is a format called modern. Did you really think they would reprint cards like Steamflogger Boss and not staples from said format?

[Lord Seth]

Look at it the other way around. Do you become happy when you see somebody slinging beta duals on scglive? I do.As far as I can tell, looking at it "the other way around" just supports exactly what I was saying.

[Mr.C]

Look at it the other way around. Do you become happy when you see somebody slinging beta duals on scglive? I do.

That just supports the other end of the spectrum. I don't get it.

[jamesh]

Personally, I think introducing the Modern format was one of the biggest mistakes Wizards have made in a long time. It's an unpopular format without any real identity. I'm interested to see what happens with Modern Masters - no one really knows the effect (not even Wizards). This is a tester to see how wholesale reprinting affects the game. Will it see more people playing the format, or will it just mean prices plummet and cause people to leave the game.

I do think the name should be changed to modern/edh/other popular cards masters since there are so many cards being reprinted that currently see no play in modern. Whatever happens it's a big pay day for Hasbro - magic is basically keeping that company alive.

[Honorik]

I have to call bullshit on this often spewed nonsense. Yes, you can say "Hey guy that paid $150 for a REVISED Underground Sea, there is also a new printing of it, which is not 20 years old and thus not worth the same amount due to collectibility."

It's not possible the washed Revised duals worth 100 - 150 $ after they print a new duals in M15 with black border and even foils. I hardly believe they could cost more than 10 - 15 bucks.


Further, people that act like cards being expensive = good for the game are simply wrong and it's trivially easy to prove. If that absurdly incorrect mentality were even remotely right, Vintage would be the *MOST* popular format. It's not, it's the least popular format.

I don't want the cards to be expensive at all, but that's the reality and it's not controlled by me or any player in any way. It's not controlled by even the big second market stores. Tell Wizards to print the "good cards and staples" at lower rarity or make make the booster pack not cost 4 $ Or abolish the mythic rarity. Problem solved.
But this is not the reality, You know. You cannot expect Voice of Resurgence to cost 5$, when someone somewhere need to open 3 - 4 boxes, full of craps, just to get one of them.


High card prices = less popularity, not more. If no one can afford the cards to play, the collectible aspect evaporates (Wanna know how much the best card in the Dune TCG is worth? $0 because no one fucking plays the game). So keep in mind, advocating them to keep making it harder and harder to actually play this game is a surefire way to make your cards worth nothing.

It's not our fault as players, that Tarmogoyf reach 100 $ price tag. Until this card appear the "good creatures staples" are one uncommon card and one common card - Nimble Mongoose and Werebear. Yeah and also Wild Mongrel at common.
I am not advocating them in any way, You misunderstood me. I am just saying when You print the best cards at Mythic slot You cannot expect something different. And when some groups of players buy those cards at so high price You must guaranteed them, that the price will not drop much after reprint.

[swoop]

I'm fairly sure Honorik and Bruizar are the same person.

[Darkenslight]

It's not possible the washed Revised duals worth 100 - 150 $ after they print a new duals in M15 with black border and even foils. I hardly believe they could cost more than 10 - 15 bucks.



I don't want the cards to be expensive at all, but that's the reality and it's not controlled by me or any player in any way. It's not controlled by even the big second market stores. Tell Wizards to print the "good cards and staples" at lower rarity or make make the booster pack not cost 4 $ Or abolish the mythic rarity. Problem solved.
But this is not the reality, You know. You cannot expect Voice of Resurgence to cost 5$, when someone somewhere need to open 3 - 4 boxes, full of craps, just to get one of them.



It's not our fault as players, that Tarmogoyf reach 100 $ price tag. Until this card appear the "good creatures staples" are one uncommon card and one common card - Nimble Mongoose and Werebear. Yeah and also Wild Mongrel at common.
I am not advocating them in any way, You misunderstood me. I am just saying when You print the best cards at Mythic slot You cannot expect something different. And when some groups of players buy those cards at so high price You must guaranteed them, that the price will not drop much after reprint.

1) Foil duals are ridiculously expensive (even foil shocks typically go for $50 from the original Ravnica, and the Foils from RTR block are around $30.
2) No-one deserves a guaranteed Rate of Return on an investment. That's basic economics. Really basic. It's unrealistic to expect a perpetual increase of value.
3) ...and? Again, not one of us deserves a guaranteed rate of return.

And by the way, the Shocks are almost universally at the $50 for foils/$30 for normal (RAV) anhd $30 for foil/$20 for normal (RTR). So I'm going to extrapolate that the foils from Modern Masters will be lower than the originals, but not so much that it's a bad way of improving the cardpool for those.

[menace13]

If a random kid having a different version of a card you have somehow makes you unable to enjoy the game, then most likely the problem is with you, not the game.

As someone else pointed out in another topic, it's like getting angry that people can easily obtain a copy of A Tale of Two Cities just because you happen to have a copy from the original printing.


Look at it the other way around. Do you become happy when you see somebody slinging beta duals on scglive? I do.
What does this even mean?

[Ozymandias]

And by the way, the Shocks are almost universally at the $50 for foils/$30 for normal (RAV) anhd $30 for foil/$20 for normal (RTR). So I'm going to extrapolate that the foils from Modern Masters will be lower than the originals, but not so much that it's a bad way of improving the cardpool for those.

Not to quibble, but the most expensive non-foil shocklands from RTR clock in at 14.99. On Star City. And I think that's a good thing. In fact, despite having a ridiculously extensive Legacy collection (40 fetches, 40 duals, goyfs, bobs, cliques, etc. ) I'm very happy about the reprinting of staples in easy-to-acquire form in Modern Masters. It shouldn't kill prices too much as far as pure supply-demand considerations go, but it should provide an enduring puncture to current and future speculative bubbles.

[bruizar]

I do think the name should be changed to modern/edh/other popular cards masters since there are so many cards being reprinted that currently see no play in modern.
Exactly. This has little to do with modern and everything to do with cashing in on the eternal singles that SCG and other shops have been selling for high prices.



2) No-one deserves a guaranteed Rate of Return on an investment. That's basic economics. Really basic. It's unrealistic to expect a perpetual increase of value.

Economics is a social science. I do not claim that anyone deserves anything. I do not have that sense of entitlement. Wotc can do whatever the hell it wants to do and there is nothing that we can do about it. What I am saying is that their choices have a ripple effect throughout the economy since economies work on the basis of trust and that trust is breached for many of the games most committed players/collectors. This has nothing to do with the promise of WOTC to reprint staple cards. This has to do with the trust that the most committed players have in the economy.

If there are no measures to prevent the value of collections to vaporize, that means that trust in the economy disappears. When this happens, people will not be able to justify the current cost of decks. I would rather have a $3000,- deck that I can sell for $3000,- or more than have a $1000.- deck that I can sell for $500,- This is why the reserved list is not abolished, and this is the reason why chronicles and modern masters are harmful, at least upon its release. In the long run (10/15 years?) these sets may actually help the game, but the initial release is like an earthquake in the community. If the tremor is too powerful, people will abandon the game. If it is only a minor upset (small amount/gradual reprints), the community will swallow it. Another threat that wasn't there when chronicles was released is the fact that mobile / digital CCGs are on the uprise and people may simply shift to those and sell off their physical collection. No hassle with collections, no hassle acquiring cards, only an iPad and a much lower barrier to entry and some fresh new game mechanics that are not possible in the physical world.


My stance is that the amount of staple cards that are reprinted may be big enough to upset some of the more committed players. Since WOTC is smart enough not to release actual print-size figures, we won't really know how badly they will flood the market but my guess is that they will print a lot more Modern Masters than you think. They have a reason to sell the boosters for more than regular prices, and why opt for printing less of a high margin product when you can print more, knowing demand is high.

[(nameless one)]

I'm fairly sure Honorik and Bruizar are the same person.

I agree with swoop on this. Honorik has 33 posts and most of them are here, all supporting Bruizar's arguments.

Are you that desperate to defend your Tarmogoyf?

And for your info, people own Tundras so they can make their U/W deck's mana base better, not to flash it around in their binder. You have to be tacky to be flashing around a white bordered English dual land. Thats what Alpha/Beta cards are for.

If you wanted to collect cards, why not just get yourself into baseball/hockey/football/basketball cards?

[testing32]

I own all of the legacy staples that are being reprinted in Modern Masters.

I'm super excited about them being reprinted. I honestly doubt the prices on the old stuff will drop that much. What Modern Masters might do is get more players involved in legacy which should improve the player quality and lead to bigger tournaments. Also, drafting this set should be a load of fun. And, if you are able to pre-order for MSRP you are getting so much value. Just a whole lot of positives for printing this set.

If you want to make money investing you should really look into this stock market thing. If you want to make money playing a card game you should probably try poker.

[Higgs]

Also, drafting this set should be a load of fun.

I'm looking forward to this as well. I never had a chance to do cube drafting (because don't have one in my play group) but got hooked on after seeing the MTGO cubes. Drafting with cards you already play in constructed formats for so many years is incredibly fun. I wonder how much the entry will be though.

[Arsenal]

If you want to make money investing you should really look into this stock market thing. If you want to make money playing a card game you should probably try poker.

Quoted for emphasis. I will never understand why people are treat Magic like some bizarro stock market; Magic is a GAME with a minor collectible element to it.

[bruizar]

Quoted for emphasis. I will never understand why people are treat Magic like some bizarro stock market; Magic is a GAME with a minor collectible element to it.

Perhaps if you own several 10's of thousands worth of eternal cards (nearly none of them in excess of 4 cards, all meant to play with, because i like the choice to play any deck out there and refuse to play with proxies or nonfoils or MWS) you'd realize the ignorance in your scrubby comments.

And to those thinking Honorik and I are the same person, this just shows the bandwagon effect and the degree of ignorance amongst many posters on this board. You guys are so convinced that your opinion is the only just version of the truth that you actually think it is impossible that somebody shares my opinion.

I have given enough logic and nuanced thoughts on the matter and have received mostly bashing, ungrounded opinions and mockery in this thread. If you cannot substantiate your claim on whether or not modern masters is a good or bad influence, both for players and collectors, please dont bother to vomit your poison in this thread.

[joemauer]

I don't want the cards to be expensive at all...

You are going to love Modern Masters then.

[Arsenal]

Perhaps if you own several 10's of thousands worth of eternal cards (nearly none of them in excess of 4 cards, all meant to play with, because i like the choice to play any deck out there and refuse to play with proxies or nonfoils or MWS) you'd realize the ignorance in your scrubby comments.

And to those thinking Honorik and I are the same person, this just shows the bandwagon effect and the degree of ignorance amongst many posters on this board. You guys are so convinced that your opinion is the only just version of the truth that you actually think it is impossible that somebody shares my opinion.

I have given enough logic and nuanced thoughts on the matter and have received mostly bashing, ungrounded opinions and mockery in this thread. If you cannot substantiate your claim on whether or not modern masters is a good or bad influence, both for players and collectors, please dont bother to vomit your poison in this thread.

My "collection" is around $13,000 in value and I wouldn't bat an eye if it was worth $13 tomorrow if it meant I get 15-20 more players per week for Legacy. I do not care about the financial aspect of Magic at all other than what cards I need cost. I do not look at my cards as an investment to cash out later in life. Magic is a GAME, it's hard for me to believe that you do not understand this core concept.

[Honorik]

I agree with swoop on this. Honorik has 33 posts and most of them are here, all supporting Bruizar's arguments

Eh ?!

Actualy I don't own a single Tarmogoyf...yes. Do You know why ? The price of this card was already around 50 $ when for the first time I need it for a Legacy deck and I miss the time when it was 5 - 20 $ in the first days after Feature Sight. What's the point to pay 200 $ for a set of card that's not on the reserved list ?! Just to play with them for this absurd amount of money ? No, Thank You. Instead I prefer to put my money on something that can retain value over the time like FBB Duals, Moat, Tebernacle ect. Yeah some staples are not on the reserved list like the old fecthes, Jace or FoW, but also are not in Modern.

[swoop]

On a Legacy forum you're crying for reprint of modern cards you yourself don't own or can't afford?

Am I missing something here?

[bruizar]

My "collection" is around $13,000 in value and I wouldn't bat an eye if it was worth $13 tomorrow if it meant I get 15-20 more players per week for Legacy. I do not care about the financial aspect of Magic at all other than what cards I need cost. I do not look at my cards as an investment to cash out later in life. Magic is a GAME, it's hard for me to believe that you do not understand this core concept.

And how much actual $ have you spent on your collection? Did ou buy jaces and duals at their peak or at 30 a pop? Thats an important distinction. If you have spent a boat load of cash on the cards and dont care about its value you are either lying, insane, or so rich that money doesnt matter to you anymore (ehich is not the case or toud have a lot more cards)

[testing32]

Eh ?!
What's the point to pay 200 $ for a set of card that's not on the reserved list ?! Just to play with them for this absurd amount of money ? No, Thank You. Instead I prefer to put my money on something that can retain value over the time like FBB Duals, Moat, Tebernacle ect.

Hobbies are money sinks. Golf clubs, bowling balls, weight lifting equipment, cars and plants all lose money over time. It's ok because you find enjoyment in the hobby and that is really what life is all about. Why is there an expectation that Magic be any different?

I think that allowing a greater number of people to enjoy the hobby by lowering the barrier of entry is a positive development. To me, Magic at it's core is about the competitive and social aspects which are both helped by reprints.

Edit - Full disclosure - My collection is worth about 12k as well. I have probably spent around 5-7k or so. I would care if it dropped to $12 but I would be fine if my collection lost half of its value.

[bruizar]

On a Legacy forum you're crying for reprint of modern cards you yourself don't own or can't afford?

Am I missing something here?

Perhaps you missed it, but cards like clique and confidant are played in all eternal formats.

[bruizar]

Hobbies are money sinks. Golf clubs, bowling balls, weight lifting equipment, cars and plants all lose money over time. It's ok because you find enjoyment in the hobby and is really what life is all about. Why is there an expectation that Magic be any different?

I think that allows a greater number of people to enjoy the hobby by lowering the barrier of entry is a positive development. To me, Magic at it's core is about the competitive and social aspects which are both helped by reprints.

That is a fine assessment and i think this is a very vald reason for people who have maybe 2 or 3 decks. The problem for people like me is that i own literally every tier 1 / tier 2 deck so a mass reprint hurts me much more than the guy that sees only his confidants dip in price. I know im the minority, but that doesnt make my concerns any less valid.

@ your edit: what you are saying is that you dont mind it if the value drops to the amount that you spent on the collection, but you would be upset if you would make a loss

[swoop]

How many cards for "EVERY TIER ONE/TWO" decks are getting reprinted now?

Goys, Cliques, Bobs? Other aren't "chase money cards" but staples that have risen due to bigger representation.

You have a collection. You blew lots of money on it. Some cards are getting reprinted. BOO FUCKING WHOO crybaby

[testing32]

That is a fine assessment and i think this is a very vald reason for people who have maybe 2 or 3 decks. The problem for people like me is that i own literally every tier 1 / tier 2 deck so a mass reprint hurts me much more than the guy that sees only his confidants dip in price. I know im the minority, but that doesnt make my concerns any less valid.

@ your edit: what you are saying is that you dont mind it if the value drops to the amount that you spent on the collection, but you would be upset if you would make a loss

I wouldn't say upset if I would "make a loss". Losing everything would suck but over the last 4 years I've easily gotten 5k of enjoyment out of my collection. And even if I sold everything now at current prices I might break even because of all the hands in the pot. Magic as an investment vehicle is really hurt by the middle men who get paid when you try to buy or sell (ebay, paypal, mailman).

Edit - and the price really only matters if you're planning on selling. I don't plan on doing that because of the cost that is incurred by moving the cards.

[Arsenal]

And how much actual $ have you spent on your collection? Did ou buy jaces and duals at their peak or at 30 a pop? Thats an important distinction. If you have spent a boat load of cash on the cards and dont care about its value you are either lying, insane, or so rich that money doesnt matter to you anymore (ehich is not the case or toud have a lot more cards)

Not counting boosters I've bought for drafting, I've spent about $7-8k on single card purchases. While I acknowledge that $7-8k isn't $13k, it's still a substantial amount of money, but even then, I simply do not care about the end value of my cards, only the functional aspect of them. Like I said, if my collection was worth pennies tomorrow, as long as they all retain their functional ability, I wouldn't care as I only view my cards as game pieces that allow me to win Magic games. I do not view them as investments that I'm going to cash out later on; this is what I have stocks, CDs, savings, my 401(k) for.

[bruizar]

How many cards for "EVERY TIER ONE/TWO" decks are getting reprinted now?

Goys, Cliques, Bobs? Other aren't "chase money cards" but staples that have risen due to bigger representation.

You have a collection. You blew lots of money on it. Some cards are getting reprinted. BOO FUCKING WHOO crybaby

As i said before, if you paid attention which i doubt you have, my collection consists of foils because they offer me protection from financial dips. Dont worry about me lol

Edit: judging from the tone of your posts you are not old enough to have lived through chronicles. If you had, you would undersrand the validity of my concerns.

[Richard Cheese]

As i said before, if you paid attention which i doubt you have, my collection consists of foils because they offer me protection from financial dips. Dont worry about me lol

Edit: judging from the tone of your posts you are not old enough to have lived through chronicles. If you had, you would undersrand the validity of my concerns.

I "lived through" Chronicles and I don't get what you're on about. The impact that set had on the prices of the reprinted cards seems to have been entirely temporary. Most of it has just continued to devalue because of power creep anyway, and the original printings of things like City of Brass and Blood Moon have retained value through multiple subsequent reprints. Bitching about Modern Masters or Chronicles devaluing cards to me seems the same as bitching about a core set devaluing cards.

I guess if you were hoping to put your kids though college on a binder full of Chromiums, you'd have been pretty pissed off, but that's what you get for confusing collectibles with investments. I thought I was going to be hot shit in 10 years with my complete sets of Marvel '95 and Marvel Masterpieces, but the bottom fell out of that just like it has with comic books and baseball cards and a bunch of other shit people thought they'd get rich off of. Ebay and the internet have taken all the hard work out of collectibles. What's keeping prices high with Magic is it's popularity as a competitive game, which one would think scarcity will only harm in the long run.

[bruizar]

I "lived through" Chronicles and I don't get what you're on about. The impact that set had on the prices of the reprinted cards seems to have been entirely temporary. Most of it has just continued to devalue because of power creep anyway, and the original printings of things like City of Brass and Blood Moon have retained value through multiple subsequent reprints. Bitching about Modern Masters or Chronicles devaluing cards to me seems the same as bitching about a core set devaluing cards.

I guess if you were hoping to put your kids though college on a binder full of Chromiums, you'd have been pretty pissed off, but that's what you get for confusing collectibles with investments. I thought I was going to be hot shit in 10 years with my complete sets of Marvel '95 and Marvel Masterpieces, but the bottom fell out of that just like it has with comic books and baseball cards and a bunch of other shit people thought they'd get rich off of. Ebay and the internet have taken all the hard work out of collectibles. What's keeping prices high with Magic is it's popularity as a competitive game, which one would think scarcity will only harm in the long run.

Fair enough. The only mistake you made is that I see cards solely as an investment which is not true. The cards I have acquired are for the most part tournament cards and almost never in excess of four copies; I acquired them because I wanted to be able to play with physical cards and not have to base my deck choice on what I have available, but on what is the best deck in any given meta. I was willing to upgrade my collection to foils because I recognized that many non-foil cards devalued or didn't rise as dramatic as foils despite any aesthetic appeal it may or may not have.

[swoop]

I have entered the game in 2000. Sorry, wasn't around during Chronicles.

So, you have foils, you don't worry about cards getting reprinted. But you do. Whats the problem? What do you see as a main problem? Few reprints?
Players losing value? Well.. this isn't the first time this has happened and if you lose a few hundred players over it you'll get a much broader player base due to it anyways.

For ever player that quits 10 or 20 will stay because of availability

[PirateKing]

When those here speak of terms of "value", to which are you referring? Magic is a game, and card value should be reserved for use in play. If otherwise, I would say you are lost and would kindly direct you to NASDAQ, where as of this writing, Hasboro is trading at $47.11.

Unless they reprint Dark Confidant with rules text of "Get one card. Lose all the life. ALL OF IT" and then errata all Dark Confidant's previous, the card will have all the same value even with new art, or new frame, or new flavor text, or if they put a little sword and shield at the bottom again.

[nedleeds]

When those here speak of terms of "value", to which are you referring? Magic is a game, and card value should be reserved for use in play. If otherwise, I would say you are lost and would kindly direct you to NASDAQ, where as of this writing, Hasboro is trading at $47.11.

Unless they reprint Dark Confidant with rules text of "Get one card. Lose all the life. ALL OF IT" and then errata all Dark Confidant's previous, the card will have all the same value even with new art, or new frame, or new flavor text, or if they put a little sword and shield at the bottom again.

Are you just in denial or just trolling? The card absolutely won't be as valuable as the original printing .... or a Russian printing ... or a Russian Foil Printing ...

[Arsenal]

Are you just in denial or just trolling? The card absolutely won't be as valuable as the original printing .... or a Russian printing ... or a Russian Foil Printing ...

I think he meant functional "value", not financial "value".

[PirateKing]

Are you just in denial or just trolling? The card absolutely won't be as valuable as the original printing .... or a Russian printing ... or a Russian Foil Printing ...

In it's intended purpose a Russian foil card has the same value as the same card in English.

For all other purposes, $46.84 a share now.

[Arsenal]

On topic, it looks like reprinting Eternal Witness (not played much, but always nice to see) and a fair amount of relevant Fairies. I realize that Bitterblossom is banned, but can Faeries ever be a thing in Modern, even if it's firmly Tier 2?

[nedleeds]

I "lived through" Chronicles and I don't get what you're on about. The impact that set had on the prices of the reprinted cards seems to have been entirely temporary. Most of it has just continued to devalue because of power creep anyway, and the original printings of things like City of Brass and Blood Moon have retained value through multiple subsequent reprints.

http://blacklotusproject.com/cards/Arabian+Nights/City+of+Brass/

City of Brass and the other original printing have all skyrocketed.

You know what drives card value and the value of the rarest versions of those cards?

The popularity of the format and its health.

Reserved list be fucking damned, look at Recruiter Judge Foiling; it made it more popular in the original printing the card is still $250.00 in english. If painter top 8's a few events the original might just climb back to $275. Wrath of God has been reprinted 12+ times ... you know what happened to the beta? It's gone up. Up. Up.

You want to see price plateauing check out Mox Pearl. It hasn't really moved in 3 years.

[nedleeds]

In it's intended purpose a Russian foil card has the same value as the same card in English.

For all other purposes, $46.84 a share now.

Who defined the purpose of magic? It's a collectible card game. Collectible. Card game. If you don't collect at all and want to play white bordered 8th edition English Chokes you can. I run signed Korean Signed ones. Why? Because in addition to winning I want to display more value than my opponent on my custom Liam Neeson playmat.

[nedleeds]

I think he meant functional "value", not financial "value".

Fair enough, but you can't separate the 2 when discussing prices.

[sroncor1]

As I said before this set is great for magic. I remember when Chronicles came out, all the newer kids thought it was great bc we could play with all these cool legends that we had missed out on. But let's be honest Axelrod Gunnerson, Hell's Caretaker, and even the Elder Dragons( the little kid in me doesn't want to admit it) sucked. Their value was tied to rarity not playablity. The cards people are mentioning are worth a bunch bc they are good and highly playable both in casual and constructed. If more people can play, is cards are available, then overall demand will increase. Thus cards may actually increase.

In respect to the lose of money, I probably have a collection worth over 30 K. I have alpha power and the like, but to be honest I would love it if we saw a reprint of power and duals. I want to play vintage, classic 93/94, legacy and the like. I would most likely lose money with the reprints but I got the cards to play with. I think those who are opposed to MM lost sight of the joy of playing magic and winning the battle of wits and actually getting to play with the cards.

As with many things in life, I say fuck 'em to those who care more about their own wallets then a game that I play for enjoyment. As many have said before, much like gambling, if you can't afford to lose the money you spend to play you probably shouldn't be spending it or playing for that matter.

Seth

[zulander]

The only thing that could make Modern Masters better for me is if they reprint Thoughtseize. I would die. That would be epic.

[Dia_Bot]

Well said Seth! My thoughts exactly.

[bruizar]

Originally Posted by Richard Cheese
I "lived through" Chronicles and I don't get what you're on about. The impact that set had on the prices of the reprinted cards seems to have been entirely temporary. Most of it has just continued to devalue because of power creep anyway, and the original printings of things like City of Brass and Blood Moon have retained value through multiple subsequent reprints.
http://blacklotusproject.com/cards/A...City+of+Brass/

City of Brass and the other original printing have all skyrocketed.



You cant say the price has retained itself or has risen if you don't know what the price would be were it never reprinted in chronicles in the first place. If other arabian night lands are any indication, Library of Alexandria and Bazaar of Baghdad, both only playable in a format that doesn't have a significant player base, are worth much much more. Imagine what the price would be for City of Brass were it never reprinted. Tendrils or dredge based decks would be much more expensive as it would be what Candelabra of Tawnos is for High Tide.

[swoop]

Imagine if Birds of Paradise were never printed after 7th.

Imagine if Wrath of God wasn't printed or reprinted in functional (Damnation) reprints later on.

Imagine.. oh wait. Who cares.

[bruizar]

Imagine if Birds of Paradise were never printed after 7th.

Imagine if Wrath of God wasn't printed or reprinted in functional (Damnation) reprints later on.

Imagine.. oh wait. Who cares.

please go back to scrub-town where people still play into Tabernacles because they've never seen one in real life.

[swoop]

Wow. Thats all? expected some more tears about you buying 100$ Jace's and 100$ Goyfs.

From Goyfs to Tabernacles (that'll never get reprinted). You're a weird guy.

[bruizar]

Wow. Thats all? expected some more tears about you buying 100$ Jace's and 100$ Goyfs.

From Goyfs to Tabernacles (that'll never get reprinted). You're a weird guy.

I'm not crying about the foil jaces I bought for 100 euro each. How many times do i have to tell you that my stuff isn't as impacted because of that shiny metal layer. What is it you're really saying?

[PirateKing]

You cant say the price has retained itself or has risen if you don't know what the price would be were it never reprinted in chronicles in the first place. If other arabian night lands are any indication, Library of Alexandria and Bazaar of Baghdad, both only playable in a format that doesn't have a significant player base, are worth much much more. Imagine what the price would be for City of Brass were it never reprinted. Tendrils or dredge based decks would be much more expensive as it would be what Candelabra of Tawnos is for High Tide.

Wait, is this City of Brass/Candelabra of Tawnos example supposed to be wishful thinking or cautionary tale?

[nedleeds]

You cant say the price has retained itself or has risen if you don't know what the price would be were it never reprinted in chronicles in the first place. If other arabian night lands are any indication, Library of Alexandria and Bazaar of Baghdad, both only playable in a format that doesn't have a significant player base, are worth much much more. Imagine what the price would be for City of Brass were it never reprinted. Tendrils or dredge based decks would be much more expensive as it would be what Candelabra of Tawnos is for High Tide.

I don't even know what I'm arguing about anymore. City of Brass was $10 in 1994. If a given players vaginal discharge is about not 'gettin in when the gettin was good' then that argument is just shit because again... CCG.

It also would have rotated long ago and thus never have been in standard, only those wishing to play eternal formats would have a need for a city of brass. So Johnnie McFnm wouldn't need one.

The question of how accessible an eternal format should be; monetarily is pure opinion. I can absolutely say, success and health of format impacts price way more than promo printings. If they did From the Vaults: Food Stamps and sold 40 duals for $19.99 in fucking Wal-Mart ten yes I concede that would impact the price of dual lands. I don't think WotC would go to that extreme. Had from the Vaults Lands not been a steaming pile of goat shit castrated by the reserved list, and instead just been the 10 duals then I think it would have spurned interest in eternal enough so that the price for a revised dual would have actually gone up long term (though the growing popularity of EDH may actually have just swallowed the whole run up). The actual number of FTV duals wouldn't have been enough to really push the market too far, but you'd see some trade in of non-foil and maybe prices would loosen initially as some folks upgraded.

[bruizar]

Wait, is this City of Brass/Candelabra of Tawnos example supposed to be wishful thinking or cautionary tale?

You raise a good point. The initial drop in price if candelabra would be reprinted would upset players. The amount of reprints and the collectibility of the cards (iconic cards, multiformat staples or extremely rare cards being reprinted vs insignificant cards being reprinted) dictate whether it would be wishful thinking or a cautionary tale.

Compare it to medicine. Magic may need an aspirin or two to cool down the speculation, but if you eat too much aspirin you overdose and kill the game. Asperin being the analogy to reprints. My feeling is that modern masters is atleast 4 asperins.

[Dan Turner]

Crying about reprints

So are you Q.Q. just because you cant afford to buy a box of modern masters? The set will do nothing to lower the price of staples, all it will do is cause more interest and raise the prices of cards more. Look at all the cards that 3 years ago were bulk rares that have soared in price due to EDH/Modern.

[Koby]

Compare it to medicine. Magic may need an aspirin or two to cool down the speculation, but if you eat too much aspirin you overdose and kill the game. Asperin being the analogy to reprints. My feeling is that modern masters is atleast 4 asperins.

The Source: Your Source for Medication.
Cue: Viagra bot-thread.

[dontbiteitholmes]

ITT: bruizar meltdown + doesn't know 4 Asprin is a super safe dosage.

[Amon Amarth]

ITT: bruizar meltdown + doesn't know 4 Asprin is a super safe dosage.

LOL

I really hope they reprint Thoughtseize seeing as it is the best piece of disruption in the format and it being so expensive is ridiculous. Sucks there is no Mutavault though. I think they did hit every other super expensive card.

[dontbiteitholmes]

LOL

I really hope they reprint Thoughtseize seeing as it is the best piece of disruption in the format and it being so expensive is ridiculous. Sucks there is no Mutavault though. I think they did hit every other super expensive card.

I hope they aren't reprinting TS in MM because it is going to show up in Standard again within the next 2 blocks.

[(nameless one)]

They're not going to reprint Thoughtsieze for Modern like how they're not going to reprint Force of Will for Legacy. That's just how WotC rolls.

[Lord Seth]

I hope they aren't reprinting TS in MM because it is going to show up in Standard again within the next 2 blocks.It's entirely possible. The card is powerful, but it could go into a Standard set.

Heck, they probably would've just stuck Tarmogoyf in a Standard set if not for the fact they think it'd be too powerful in Standard.

[Megadeus]

Thought Seize Will not be reprinted. Its confirmed. It doesnt fit the numbers crunch.

[dontbiteitholmes]

It's entirely possible. The card is powerful, but it could go into a Standard set.

Heck, they probably would've just stuck Tarmogoyf in a Standard set if not for the fact they think it'd be too powerful in Standard.

I wouldn't doubt this is true because WotC pretty much showed they don't understand Standard when they said Mana Leak was the problem with last season (and everyone else was like WTF? because it was in 10th place for what made UW Delver insane).

Still I also wouldn't be surprised if they realized Tarmo is actually not too good for Standard but just didn't want to completely crash his value or have a $100 nilla creature in Standard and couldn't find an in between. Goyf wasn't too good in TS and he damn sure isn't too good in the post Titan age of drop 5-8 cmc bombs all day until you win Standard.

[Megadeus]

Is goyf even better than Burning Tree Emmissary in STD? Like without fetches and playable cheap sorceries and instants he seems very meh. Not bad but meh. Sure he is a card. But like you said, when People slam tusks and other insanely overcosted value dudes, who cares about a 2 drop 4/5?

[bruizar]

ITT: bruizar meltdown + doesn't know 4 Asprin is a super safe dosage.

True story. The idiocy in this thread is getting too much for me. Also, rephrase to 4 strips of Asperin.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Is goyf even better than Burning Tree Emmissary in STD? Like without fetches and playable cheap sorceries and instants he seems very meh. Not bad but meh. Sure he is a card. But like you said, when People slam tusks and other insanely overcosted value dudes, who cares about a 2 drop 4/5?

Tarmogoyf is from FutureSight and he was obviously printed as a way to foreshadow planeswalkers. I always joked years ago that he was future shifted from a set 10 years in the future when power creep has gone up so much he is just what a grizzly bear looks like in 2018 or whatever. Now I'm not laughing so much though. It looks like that's where the game is headed. Goyf was never a beast in Standard, but he did see play, even with shit like Grizzly Salvage I don't think Goyf would be broken in current Standard. He's not bad by any means, but when a 5 drop gets you a dude who's 9/10 times going to trade with Goyf, gain you 5 life, and leave a 3/3 behind I just don't see Goyf being broken in standard.

[menace13]

InB44asperins.

[Humphrey]

Modern Masters was designed with a fraud in mind. Display boxes contain 24 packs, the perfect number for an overpriced booster box.

[(nameless one)]

LOL at the aspirin. This is gonna go down in Source history along with the pimped out Thunderbluffs.dec and Anus Mittens.

[swoop]

The idiocy in this thread is getting too much for me. Also, rephrase to 4 strips of Asperin.

[TorpidNinja]

Modern Masters was designed with a fraud in mind. Display boxes contain 24 packs, the perfect number for an overpriced booster box.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lqkaa0cc7Z1r25534o1_500.gif

[Julian23]

Strange. I always thought the perfect number for an overprieced booset box was 22.

[swoop]

I always thought 42 was the answer

[Dan Turner]

Modern Masters was designed with a fraud in mind. Display boxes contain 24 packs, the perfect number for an overpriced booster box.


Just because you type it in big letters does not make it true...Explain yourself. You do realize back around ice age a booster box was between 24 and 60 packs depending on set?

Wizards did not set the price of the box, the secondary market did. If no one purchased at $300 then it would be at a price that people are buying. Yes it is sad people are paying $10-$12 per pack, welcome to basic economics and the thing called speculation and hoarding.

The largest complaints about MM seem to come from those who have been hoarding Modern Cards and trying to play the speculation market.


TL;DR Take 2 aspirin, don't call me

[Star|Scream]

See his post in the pimp thread

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?4607-DO-NOT-TRY-TO-SELL-IN-HERE-Pimp-Legacy-Decks&p=727889&viewfull=1#post727889

No wonder why he is against reprints...

[Dan Turner]

See his post in the pimp thread

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?4607-DO-NOT-TRY-TO-SELL-IN-HERE-Pimp-Legacy-Decks&p=727889&viewfull=1#post727889

No wonder why he is against reprints...

i had come to this conclusion long ago. The only people against reprints are speculators and hoarders. Real players are more interested in having viable decks to play against then value of the cards themselves. I personally have at least $100k in cards possibly a hell of a lot more. If every set ever was printed in a $29.98 box per set at Walmart I would be happy as heck, this would mean I have more players who are no longer held back by budget. Skill can be learned and taught, it is very hard to get around a budget.

Yes I get happy when I go through my bulk stuff and find cards that have gone up, I get sad though when we get a new player and his deck has vizzerdrix in it since they can not afford better cards.

Yes magic is collectible, but first it is a game that people play.

[bruizar]

Dark depths is banned in modern so i dont expect it to be reprinted.

But keep saying im QQing cause im a scrub that cant afford modern or legacy, while you guys are fiddling around with proxies and beat up duals.



Also, if u have 100K worth of stuff dont tell me im a hoarder, cause i think you are worst than me
In that case.

[Star|Scream]

Dark depths is banned in modern so i dont expect it to be reprinted.

But keep saying im QQing cause im a scrub that cant afford modern or legacy, while you guys are fiddling around with proxies and beat up duals.



Also, if u have 100K worth of stuff dont tell me im a hoarder, cause i think you are worst than me
In that case.

You're missing the point.

[bruizar]

There really is no point.

[PirateKing]

There really is no point.

That's... really deep.

[(nameless one)]

Dark depths is banned in modern so i dont expect it to be reprinted.

But keep saying im QQing cause im a scrub that cant afford modern or legacy, while you guys are fiddling around with proxies and beat up duals.



Also, if u have 100K worth of stuff dont tell me im a hoarder, cause i think you are worst than me
In that case.

I'm sure this is hoarding dude:


Cause I believe in cheap artifacts:
http://i.imgur.com/E98SfFX.png

And some more foils
http://imgur.com/EuDW6e6.png

[bruizar]

I'm sure this is hoarding dude:

Only hoarding the artificers intuitions. Also to make a point since not many people believe in the card and argueing that the card is good with the community is a fruitless effort just like this thread, ill argue with the market and let the economy decide whether or not im right. If im right, which i more often than not am when it comes to card values, i make a profit and get to punish the crap out of all the netdecking scrubs that complain about exploding prices and hoarders killing their community. Priceless.

[Humphrey]

Modern Masters was designed with a booster draft experience in mind. Display boxes contain 24 packs, the perfect number for an eight player booster draft.
http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=445980


One can laugh about that..


One booster box of Modern Masters contains only 24 booster packs, compared to a regular expansion containing 36 packs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Masters

They stopped making different size boosters and boxes long time ago.


Just because you type it in big letters does not make it true...Explain yourself. You do realize back around ice age a booster box was between 24 and 60 packs depending on set?

Wizards did not set the price of the box, the secondary market did. If no one purchased at $300 then it would be at a price that people are buying. Yes it is sad people are paying $10-$12 per pack, welcome to basic economics and the thing called speculation and hoarding.

The largest complaints about MM seem to come from those who have been hoarding Modern Cards and trying to play the speculation market.


TL;DR Take 2 aspirin, don't call me

[swoop]

So in short you're saying Modern Masters will kill MTG as a game. Yet you fail to argument why.

Get some Aspirin and chill the fuck down

[Barook]

If im right, which i more often than not am when it comes to card values, i make a profit and get to punish the crap out of all the netdecking scrubs that complain about exploding prices and hoarders killing their community. Priceless.
And yet, you whine about Modern Masters and how it's ruining Magic.

[Gheizen64]

Only hoarding the artificers intuitions. Also to make a point since not many people believe in the card and argueing that the card is good with the community is a fruitless effort just like this thread, ill argue with the market and let the economy decide whether or not im right. If im right, which i more often than not am when it comes to card values, i make a profit and get to punish the crap out of all the netdecking scrubs that complain about exploding prices and hoarders killing their community. Priceless.

So basically you're just thinking about this from a financial standpoint. Is this also why you do card evaluations and tell people what to buy and what not whenever a set come out, so you can manipulate a bit the market to maximize your gains? Go invest in something else and chill. You're not even being coherent anymore, now you see this as an opportunity again and not as an attempt to ruin the game when they did a thing they do all time, manipulating values (be it via bans or new prints, same shit) of cards off the reserved list? (and they did this for reserved list cards too, just remember when duals were banned in extended sad shit man).

[Lord Seth]

I find some of the whining about Modern Masters supposedly screwing up the game amusing considering that the most common complaint I hear about Modern Masters, both online and in real life, is that the print run is so small.

[Humphrey]

MM wont be screwing the game. it will be a blast to draft. look at all those combos. CCrusher+Loam or Pestermite+Kiki for example

[Koby]

MM wont be screwing the game. it will be a blast to draft. look at all those combos. CCrusher+Loam or Pestermite+Kiki for example

Spellstutter Sprite + :u::b: common and uncommons. Loads of fun.

[Lord Seth]

MM wont be screwing the game. it will be a blast to draft. look at all those combos. CCrusher+Loam or Pestermite+Kiki for exampleCountryside Crusher and Life from the Loam is a combo that requires you to open up two particular Rares, so your odds of getting both those cards in Limited are fairly low. Kiki-Jiki and Pestermite is something you'll probably see more even though Kiki is a mythic, because there's going to be plenty of Pestermites.

[(nameless one)]

I wish they print uncommon dragons. This way if I do crack a Dragonstorm in draft, I can draft Dragonstorm. Drafting Dragonstorm for $30 is gonna be worth it.

@ bruizar:

Dude, you gotta lay off the aspirin man. Your arguments don't make sense.

[Amon Amarth]

So Arcbound Ravager is a beast. I'm not sure if this is super new but it's pretty damn fitting.

[Goin Aggro]

So Arcbound Ravager is a beast. I'm not sure if this is super new but it's pretty damn fitting.

I'm gonna need some aspirin after the beast Ravager beatdowns.

[Lt. Quattro]

So Arcbound Ravager is a beast. I'm not sure if this is super new but it's pretty damn fitting.

I could have told you ravager was a beast 10 years ago.

:cool:

[Megadeus]

I wish they print uncommon dragons. This way if I do crack a Dragonstorm in draft, I can draft Dragonstorm. Drafting Dragonstorm for $30 is gonna be worth it.

@ bruizar:

Dude, you gotta lay off the aspirin man. Your arguments don't make sense.

Talk about a story to tell... How many copies of dragonstorm do you need for it to be a viable deck? :p

[zulander]

I thought they were only printing cards already modern legal in MM? Isn't dragonstorm pre-modern?

[PirateKing]

I guess because it was printed timeshifted in Time Spiral. I looked on Gatherer, same thing with Akroma, Angel of Wrath, listed as legal in Modern.

[Koby]

I thought they were only printing cards already modern legal in MM? Isn't dragonstorm pre-modern?

Yes and no. I don't think the card has ever existed in the Modern frame, but was reprinted in Time Spiral. Good observation.

EDIT: Jumped the gun. It was printed in Modern frame for FTV: Dragons. For whatever that's worth...

[PirateKing]

Phyrexian Negator was printed in Duel Decks: Phyrexia vs. the Coalition but isn't legal in Modern.

[Shawon]

Phyrexian Negator was printed in Duel Decks: Phyrexia vs. the Coalition but isn't legal in Modern.

It's on the Reserved List, bro.

[Koby]

It's on the Reserved List, bro.

RL strikes again.

[zulander]

Oh I didn't see it printed as timeshifted, that kinda make sense.

[zulander]

On a side note, they should reprint goyf, jace, bob, force, and duals as uncommon. Seems legit.

[Megadeus]

On a side note, they should reprint goyf, jace, bob, force, and duals as uncommon. Seems legit.

Lol talk about 60 dollar booster packs. ..

[troopatroop]

On a side note, they should reprint goyf, jace, bob, force, and duals as uncommon. Seems legit.

I agree with Goyf, Force, Duals at uncommon 100%

Force IS an uncommon. Goyf is a 2cc vanilla creature/mistake. Duals are just lands.

These three cards should not all cost 100$ a piece. It's really bad for magic when people actually CANT pay less than $1000 to play a card game.

[Picc]

I agree with Goyf, Force, Duals at uncommon 100%

Force IS an uncommon. Goyf is a 2cc vanilla creature/mistake. Duals are just lands.

These three cards should not all cost 100$ a piece. It's really bad for magic when people actually CANT pay less than $1000 to play a card game.

I would be in favor, I would also be in favor the whatever set they were printed in being over printed until they all cost under $5 each like uncommon playing cards really should. Honestly I've got duals/staples/power/lots of expensive cards. Sure its nice they "cost a lot" but I'd be way happier if I had more people to play them with.

[ankharlyn]

I would be in favor, I would also be in favor the whatever set they were printed in being over printed until they all cost under $5 each like uncommon playing cards really should. Honestly I've got duals/staples/power/lots of expensive cards. Sure its nice they "cost a lot" but I'd be way happier if I had more people to play them with.

I recently bought a bunch of Legacy stuff, i.e., paid current prices for it all. I would still be in favor of this. The original printings would always have value as collector's items anyway. I'd rather have people to play the game with (which is really all I care about) than have my pieces of cardboard keep or gain in value.

People with the Magic = Fischer Price Stock Market mentality really are a blight and cancer on this game.

[force_of_phil]

Let's see how it plays out and then draw conclusions. Some have speculated that the set will increase demand to keep up with the increased supply. What will actually happen? No one knows. But I will say this: those supporting mass reprints of chase cards as commons don't understand what draws people to CCGs over games like chess, poker, or go. Chess is 100% about moving the pieces. CCGs are in large part about acquiring the pieces. The challenge of doing so is what drives people to open booster packs. The CCG model exists to create profit for the game company, and in return new sets, new mechanics, and new formats for the players. Acquiring all the cards you want should be a challenge (and if the game is intended to extended indefinitely, a challenge that can never be fully met). Arguing that the balance is of out line one way or another is reasonable. Arguing that everyone should be able to afford every card is an argument against the CCG model (and the expenses/benefits that come with it).

[ankharlyn]

Let's see how it plays out and then draw conclusions. Some have speculated that the set will increase demand to keep up with the increased supply. What will actually happen? No one knows. But I will say this: those supporting mass reprints of chase cards as commons don't understand what draws people to CCGs over games like chess, poker, or go. Chess is 100% about moving the pieces. CCGs are in large part about acquiring the pieces. The challenge of doing so is what drives people to open booster packs. The CCG model exists to create profit for the game company, and in return new sets, new mechanics, and new formats for the players. Acquiring all the cards you want should be a challenge (and if the game is intended to extended indefinitely, a challenge that can never be fully met). Arguing that the balance is of out line one way or another is reasonable. Arguing that everyone should be able to afford every card is an argument against the CCG model (and the expenses/benefits that come with it).

LOL @ the idea that spending money is a "challenge" or even difficult in any way at all.

It's just SOOOO difficult to press "buy" on a website. It takes amazing amounts of skill and discipline to depress a mouse button. I'd say it's on par with scaling Mount Everest, becoming an astronaut or winning a Pulitzer. /s

[force_of_phil]

LOL @ the idea that spending money is a "challenge" or even difficult in any way at all.

It's just SOOOO difficult to press "buy" on a website. It takes amazing amounts of skill and discipline to depress a mouse button. I'd say it's on par with scaling Mount Everest, becoming an astronaut or winning a Pulitzer. /s

It doesn't matter what the challenge is, what matters is that you have an incentive to keep spending your money, which fuels that growth of the game. This is in contrast to non-CCG models where you purchase the game once and you have all the cards (Netrunner, for example). On one hand, you never have to spend any more money. On the other hand, the game never changes, and you don't get the satisfaction of completing a deck (if that appeals to you). You may prefer that model of game.

Also, discussions work better when hyperbole is kept to a minimum. It kills that progressive vibe you've been shooting for.

[Lord Seth]

On a side note, they should reprint goyf, jace, bob, force, and duals as uncommon. Seems legit.While I wouldn't mind being able to pick those cards up for a lot cheaper, this is a pretty terrible idea.
I would be in favor, I would also be in favor the whatever set they were printed in being over printed until they all cost under $5 each like uncommon playing cards really should.This is an even worse idea.

[ankharlyn]

While I wouldn't mind being able to pick those cards up for a lot cheaper, this is a pretty terrible idea.This is an even worse idea.

Yeah, for sure. After all, the game exists solely for speculators and hoarders to play Fischer Price Stock Market. It's not as if it's meant to be played at all. Oh wait.

[Lord Seth]

Yeah, for sure. After all, the game exists solely for speculators and hoarders to play Fischer Price Stock Market. It's not as if it's meant to be played at all. Oh wait.Nice strawman.

I never said I was against those cards being reprinted at all or their secondary market value going down. I'd love to see that, and I'm absolutely in favor of abolishing the Reserved List. But flooding the market with reprints would just result in the same kind of backlash that made them create the Reserved List in the first place. It needs to be done gradually and sensibly.

Now, I actually think they're being a bit overly cautious with Modern Masters, but going full tilt in the other direction and doing something like giving it a print run bigger than a Standard set is an even worse idea and would almost certainly lead to another Chronicles fiasco.

[ankharlyn]

I never said I was against those cards being reprinted at all or their secondary market value going down. I'd love to see that, and I'm absolutely in favor of abolishing the Reserved List. But flooding the market with reprints would just result in the same kind of backlash that made them create the Reserved List in the first place. It needs to be done gradually and sensibly.

Now, I actually think they're being a bit overly cautious with Modern Masters, but going full tilt in the other direction and doing something like giving it a print run bigger than a Standard set is an even worse idea and would almost certainly lead to another Chronicles fiasco.

The other option is to stop pandering to speculators and hoarders constantly. Most don't even play the game, and thus matter exactly not at all. Without the game, there's no speculative market anyway.

Also, Chronicles needs to stop being thrown around as "evidence" that reprints are a bad idea. I was around for Chronicles, and it's so ridiculously overblown now versus the minor impact it actually had that it's completely absurd to even bring it up.

[Aggro_zombies]

So, like, Wizards has recently flooded the market with shocklands reprints - cards that were $20 and up prior to RtR coming out, many of which are now sub-$10. Where are the people bitching about that? Or is it just that special sets of reprints really get people going, but cards getting reprinted as a routine part of releasing expert-level expansions doesn't?

[ankharlyn]

So, like, Wizards has recently flooded the market with shocklands reprints - cards that were $20 and up prior to RtR coming out, many of which are now sub-$10. Where are the people bitching about that? Or is it just that special sets of reprints really get people going, but cards getting reprinted as a routine part of releasing expert-level expansions doesn't?

Just a guess, but I imagine the cancerous speculator crowd isn't complaining about the shockland reprints because they can capitalize on it (by buying them at their lowest, soon after the reprints, and hoarding until they go back up). Speculators/hoarders only whine and complain if it's something that doesn't benefit them. They gotta have it both ways.

[Koby]

So, like, Wizards has recently flooded the market with shocklands reprints - cards that were $20 and up prior to RtR coming out, many of which are now sub-$10. Where are the people bitching about that? Or is it just that special sets of reprints really get people going, but cards getting reprinted as a routine part of releasing expert-level expansions doesn't?

Obbbbvvviioouusssly cards that are worth more than $20 hold a special place in our hearts and wallets (and our creditors). How dare WotC have the chutzpah to print more of these Jacksons and put them into Booster packs.

[Lord Seth]

So, like, Wizards has recently flooded the market with shocklands reprints - cards that were $20 and up prior to RtR coming out, many of which are now sub-$10. Where are the people bitching about that? Or is it just that special sets of reprints really get people going, but cards getting reprinted as a routine part of releasing expert-level expansions doesn't?A card going from about $20 to about $10 in a few months is quite a bit different from a card going from $100 to $5 in a few months.

There's also the fact they're in Standard, which keeps them at a premium despite the large increase in supply.

[Aggro_zombies]

A card going from about $20 to about $10 in a few months is quite a bit different from a card going from $100 to $5 in a few months.
And when have Magic cards ever done that, aside from Chronicles?

EDIT: Or bannings.

[Lord Seth]

And when have Magic cards ever done that, aside from Chronicles?

EDIT: Or bannings.I'm not sure what your point is supposed to be?

[Aggro_zombies]

I'm not sure what your point is supposed to be?
Modern Masters is almost certainly not going to cause any cards in it to go from $100 to $5 in any relevant time frame. There is simply not going to be enough supply. Even if they were to take one of the very high-value cards in it - Tarmogoyf, say - and print it in a large fall expansion (so it gets drafted for ~7-8 months), the price would not sink so drastically. More realistic price drops - 50% or so - are painful to speculators and store owners who loaded up on staples at the wrong times, but pretty much no one else is actually going to be hurt by them, particularly if they've held onto those card since the original printings came out.

If people don't bitch about cards getting reprinted in regular expansions, they shouldn't bitch about a special set like MM.

EDIT: Though, to clarify, $100 to $5 is pretty unrealistic barring a ban on a card across multiple formats or the game going out of print.

[phonics]

A card going from about $20 to about $10 in a few months is quite a bit different from a card going from $100 to $5 in a few months.

There's also the fact they're in Standard, which keeps them at a premium despite the large increase in supply.

They would have to sell packs at walmart that had 100% guarantee of getting that card for it to drop that from 100 to 5$. Shocklands literally flooded the market and they dropped like 25$.

[Lord Seth]

Modern Masters is almost certainly not going to cause any cards in it to go from $100 to $5 in any relevant time frame. There is simply not going to be enough supply. Even if they were to take one of the very high-value cards in it - Tarmogoyf, say - and print it in a large fall expansion (so it gets drafted for ~7-8 months), the price would not sink so drastically. More realistic price drops - 50% or so - are painful to speculators and store owners who loaded up on staples at the wrong times, but pretty much no one else is actually going to be hurt by them, particularly if they've held onto those card since the original printings came out.

If people don't bitch about cards getting reprinted in regular expansions, they shouldn't bitch about a special set like MM.I'm not complaining about Modern Masters, and in fact I've argued against some of the people who were. In fact, as I said, I think it should have a larger print run. The "$100 to $5" thing was in reference to someone who was saying they should crash the price of cards like Tarmogoyf or Jace by overprinting them to the point that they were only $5, which I felt was a bad idea.

[Aggro_zombies]

I'm not complaining about Modern Masters, and in fact I've argued against some of the people who were. In fact, as I said, I think it should have a larger print run. The "$100 to $5" thing was in reference to someone who was saying they should crash the price of cards like Tarmogoyf or Jace by overprinting them to the point that they were only $5, which I felt was a bad idea.
Right. We're arguing on the same side, here. I just haven't read super far upthread because the entitlement is too thick.

Sorry if it came off like I was going after you specifically.

[bruizar]

Let's see how it plays out and then draw conclusions. Some have speculated that the set will increase demand to keep up with the increased supply. What will actually happen? No one knows. But I will say this: those supporting mass reprints of chase cards as commons don't understand what draws people to CCGs over games like chess, poker, or go. Chess is 100% about moving the pieces. CCGs are in large part about acquiring the pieces. The challenge of doing so is what drives people to open booster packs. The CCG model exists to create profit for the game company, and in return new sets, new mechanics, and new formats for the players. Acquiring all the cards you want should be a challenge (and if the game is intended to extended indefinitely, a challenge that can never be fully met). Arguing that the balance is of out line one way or another is reasonable. Arguing that everyone should be able to afford every card is an argument against the CCG model (and the expenses/benefits that come with it).

Qft

[bruizar]

So, like, Wizards has recently flooded the market with shocklands reprints - cards that were $20 and up prior to RtR coming out, many of which are now sub-$10. Where are the people bitching about that? Or is it just that special sets of reprints really get people going, but cards getting reprinted as a routine part of releasing expert-level expansions doesn't?

1 because they are subpar to duals, and modern isnt legacy or vintage. Its not a multi format staple and it doesnt have a place in either of the earlier mentioned formats, except if you play bad snuff out-pump deck.

2 because original ravnica foil prices are unaffected, see hallowed fountain.

The main reason for the big outcry is because of modern masters selection of cards. The density of good cards is just too high in my opinion. Sure some cards are protected by the mythic rarity but still. Even minor cards like Spell Snare are getting reprinted. Those values will tank because the cards arent even legal in standard, which normally keeps the values of the cards reasonable for a while.

Another reason is because I think modern masters isnt as scarce a product as people make it out to be

Cards like goyf will remain high value cards regardless of modern masters, but a lot of other cards will decline and i think that if you look at the sum of all cards before mm and after that its going to be a negative outcome. Entomb for example, also tanked.

[Deviruchi]

I hope ModernMasters will recuce cost of staples a litte bit so I can acquire Dark Confidants and Tarmogoyfs for over a dozen percents cheaper than now. I don't live in reality when I see myself playing Modern so I treat this set as a way to get Legacy staples cheaper and maybe as an excuse to play sealed format first time in many years (~45$). As a collector of a specific types of cards I hope foils won't be too expensive because of the cause "foil in every pack".

[Putrid Imp]

I agree with Goyf, Force, Duals at uncommon 100%

Force IS an uncommon. Goyf is a 2cc vanilla creature/mistake. Duals are just lands.

These three cards should not all cost 100$ a piece. It's really bad for magic when people actually CANT pay less than $1000 to play a card game.

If you PM me your adress I will gladly send you two pre-made decks, worth about .5$ in actual value, and entirely playable.

You don't have to pay $1000 or more to play Magic. Every time I go to play, I see casual players and limited players at the store, they don't spend much money on magic, but they somehow seem to be playing it ..

.. should I alert WoTC?

And if you actually think reducing the value of certain cards from 100$ to 5$ overnight would benefit the community and the brand image, well, I guess thats your opinion which seems based on jealousy.

If wizards reduced the price of duals, FoW, Jace, and the other staples to 15$ a piece, other rares in magic would be worth very little. Who would spend 25$ on a geist of saint draft, when Jace is only 15$? Noone of course.

Meaning that all the would-be staples opened by casual & limited players are worth a lot less on the 2ndary market, effectively increasing the price of drafting or opening packs (purchase price minus lowered sales price of singles).

You seem a bit blinded by jealousy :(

I wouldn't mind some legacy reprints, for example a From the Vault: Legacy realms could contain 1 of each dual.

What Modern Masters has learned me though, is that WoTC should not sell these reprints via their normal LGS. The LGS would abuse the pricing, as they are with MM. They should allow each player to order 1 box of this, using their DCI number or so.

I think a correct price for 1 of each dual, would be 350-450$, half of which WoTC would donate to a good cause, and another part of the profit should be invested in the community, given their huge profit margin on such a product.

[bruizar]

What Modern Masters has learned me though, is that WoTC should not sell these reprints via their normal LGS. The LGS would abuse the pricing, as they are with MM. They should allow each player to order 1 box of this, using their DCI number or so.

I think a correct price for 1 of each dual, would be 350-450$, half of which WoTC would donate to a good cause, and another part of the profit should be invested in the community, given their huge profit margin on such a product.[/I]

Best idea yet.

[Megadeus]

The DCI number thing is an interesting idea. Not sure if wizards would be willing to ship everything to separate places. I guess you could register for it through your LGS and they could mass ship to the LGS? Obviously this isn't happening, I just wanted to think of a way that such a great idea would actually be feasible for wizards. I mean that is basically pure profit for them thanks to the card press essentially printing money

[bruizar]

Shipping wouldn't be that expensive for US/Europe. They produce cards locally in belgium @ cartamundo near the dutch border.

[Megadeus]

Shipping wouldn't be that expensive for US/Europe. They produce cards locally in belgium @ cartamundo near the dutch border.

Well they stopped doing MPR because of that right? I just figured that registering through the LGS is a way to regulate who has already bought one, and it allows you to mass ship

[PirateKing]

What is the penalty for DCI registration fraud? If I suddenly had three new housemates name Huey Dewey and Lewie who all wanted to play magic with me, and I signed them all up for a DCI number, what risk would I be taking?

You could require a minimum number of planeswalker points, but then that would be punishing legitimate newcomers who just happen to sign up a day late.

[Putrid Imp]

You could require a minimum number of planeswalker points, but then that would be punishing legitimate newcomers who just happen to sign up a day late.

I don't know many day 1 players that would spend that amount of money on 10 lands :)

There would be some abuse of the offer I am sure, but not on the level we are seeing with SCG & MM.

I like the planeswalker points suggestion. Someone mail wizards! :)

[Lemnear]

What is the penalty for DCI registration fraud? If I suddenly had three new housemates name Huey Dewey and Lewie who all wanted to play magic with me, and I signed them all up for a DCI number, what risk would I be taking?

You could require a minimum number of planeswalker points, but then that would be punishing legitimate newcomers who just happen to sign up a day late.

A lifetime ban ... we already had the issue around. There was a case where a playgroup did right this to scam player-rewards and Co. from WotC.

[dontbiteitholmes]

If you want a real solution that doesn't allow LGS to gouge players just run Zendikar style "treasures" in every set with Modern legal rares/mythics and stabalize the prices. As I've said many times before I think this is also the only legit was to break the reserved list if they ever went that route.

[Fossil4182]

Anyone else find it curious that Thoughtseize was not spoiled for Modern Masters?

[pavlaugh]

Anyone else find it curious that Thoughtseize was not spoiled for Modern Masters?

Would be great to see it as an M14 / Theros reprint...

[nedleeds]

Anyone else find it curious that Thoughtseize was not spoiled for Modern Masters?

No. Were they really expected to print every $30 + card in constructed magic? No Mutavault either.

[PirateKing]

Got to hold something back for Modern Masters 2 next year.

[Lord Seth]

No. Were they really expected to print every $30 + card in constructed magic? No Mutavault either.The lack of Mutavault is a little surprising to me, but for Modern I think it's only played in Merfolk, which is a fairly fringe deck anyway. Though both Mutavault and Thoughtseize could easily be reprinted in a Standard set.

My question is, where the heck is Noble Hierarch? That card is pretty big in Modern and is significantly harder to reprint in a Standard set due to its keyword ability, meaning it has to be a set that actually has Exalted elsewhere in it, whereas Thoughtseize and Mutavault could theoretically go into just about anything.

[kwis]

The lack of Mutavault is a little surprising to me, but for Modern I think it's only played in Merfolk, which is a fairly fringe deck anyway. Though both Mutavault and Thoughtseize could easily be reprinted in a Standard set.

My question is, where the heck is Noble Hierarch? That card is pretty big in Modern and is significantly harder to reprint in a Standard set due to its keyword ability, meaning it has to be a set that actually has Exalted elsewhere in it, whereas Thoughtseize and Mutavault could theoretically go into just about anything.

I suppose that we could see Exalted as the M14 keyword.

[Lemnear]

Ben Bleiweiss of SCG, noted recently that Thoughtseize will be reprinted in M14.

I really hate all the Insider information of printings/bannings/rules changes passed from WotC to SCG months in advance so SCG is able to control the market...

[Aggro_zombies]

Ben Bleiweiss of SCG, noted recently that Thoughtseize will be reprinted in M14.

I really hate all the Insider information of printings/bannings/rules changes passed from WotC to SCG months in advance so SCG is able to control the market...
No, he was predicting it would show up in M14. He doesn't actually know that, although it is a distinct possibility.

Far more interesting is that he's "predicting" that MM won't lower prices on core Modern staples...what that actually means is that SCG, which tends to set prices on cards for the majority of internet and brick-and-mortar retailers, won't lower prices on Modern staples.

[Barook]

...what that actually means is that SCG, which tends to set prices on cards for the majority of internet and brick-and-mortar retailers, won't lower prices on Modern staples.
This

SCG pulls one dick move after another in terms of MM - first buying up boxes and reselling them for 300 bucks, now this.

[vennie]

This

SCG pulls one dick move after another in terms of MM - first buying up boxes and reselling them for 300 bucks, now this.

Hmm,

Over here in europe the MM boxes are still availeble for around €200-€210.

So it's not true that you cannot get them for less than $300...

[Davran]

I suppose that we could see Exalted as the M14 keyword.

I doubt it since it was just the M13 keyword. I think our returning mechanic this time is slivers...butchered or otherwise.

[PirateKing]

I'd be shocked if SCG wasn't selling them for $300. If anything they are consistent with high prices and large inventory. You can always, literally always buy anything SCG sells cheaper somewhere else. Of course you can find boxes at sub$300 elsewhere. If you couldn't, then SCG would raise the price to $400. That's how they work.

[Barook]

Hmm,

Over here in europe the MM boxes are still availeble for around €200-€210.

So it's not true that you cannot get them for less than $300...
But that's about 360$ - which is pretty much the same price if you include VAT.

[vennie]

But that's about 360$ - which is pretty much the same price if you include VAT.

I believe u mean to say $260 right?

Because last time i checked €1 is not more then $1.25.

I believe you when you say they are expensive.

But the real problem why SCG is able to raise the prices is that there are still many people acually buying the cards from SCG so they can and will get away with it.

[Barook]

I believe u mean to say $260 right?

Because last time i checked €1 is not more then $1.25.
Actually, 1 € = 1,32$ right now. But yeah, I fucked up the math. My bad.

[Julian23]

But the real problem why SCG is able to raise the prices is that there are still many people acually buying the cards from SCG so they can and will get away with it.

Ok, I have always been pretty far from neoliberal ideology, and I still am. But if people are buying at that price from SCG, I don't blame SCG. It's either a lack of education on how to get cards for much cheaper OR people actually like to pay that pretty relevant +extra money for the service of receiving it all from one seller.

Friend of mine, he wants to buy a Modern deck right now, just got into competitive gaming. I told him to get it off magiccardsmarket.eu. He looked into it but said he'd much rather buy from a real shop even though that's plus 30-50% price. Those people exist and I don't blame them. After all, if you really want to blame someone, blame WotC.


/edit: What magiccardsmarket.eu and big shops that buy up cards until a certain price did was to kind of erradicate "local prices". At least in Much between like 2004-2008, everything was cheap, we had our beautifully set up local semi-communist regime of trading at super cheap prices. I remember something about "Bringing all the Duals to Munich!" which also meant hardly ever selling outside the local community. You'd buy and sell way lower than anything on ebay. That was because ebay has always been such a pain-in-the-ass compared to MCM. When MCM came around, people felt worse about selling super low as it suddenly seemed that you just had to "keep up" with MCM prices. Ebay had never really been relevant before because it usually was just as expensive as the big shops that had already existed back then. MCM was different and allowed SCG a super efficient way into buying from local players all around the world, thus making it harder to buy/sell for cheap locally. Look around, everytime a trade is set up these days, people pull out their smartphones. And for those tight-knit local communities, trading has been replaced by lending out cards. At least over here it's not uncommon to lend out 2000€ worth of cards to someone you have only seen at like 1 or 2 events. That's because we love Legacy and would do almost anything to keep promoting it.

[sdematt]

Ok, I have always been pretty far from neoliberal ideology, and I still am. But if people are buying at that price from SCG, I don't blame SCG. It's either a lack of education on how to get cards for much cheaper OR people actually like to pay that pretty relevant +extra money for the service of receiving it all from one seller.

Friend of mine, he wants to buy a Modern deck right now, just got into competitive gaming. I told him to get it off magiccardsmarket.eu. He looked into it but said he'd much rather buy from a real shop even though that's plus 30-50% price. Those people exist and I don't blame them. After all, if you really want to blame someone, blame WotC.


/edit: What magiccardsmarket.eu and big shops that buy up cards until a certain price did was to kind of erradicate "local prices". At least in Much between like 2004-2008, everything was cheap, we had our beautifully set up local semi-communist regime of trading at super cheap prices. I remember something about "Bringing all the Duals to Munich!" which also meant hardly ever selling outside the local community. You'd buy and sell way lower than anything on ebay. That was because ebay has always been such a pain-in-the-ass compared to MCM. When MCM came around, people felt worse about selling super low as it suddenly seemed that you just had to "keep up" with MCM prices. Ebay had never really been relevant before because it usually was just as expensive as the big shops that had already existed back then. MCM was different and allowed SCG a super efficient way into buying from local players all around the world, thus making it harder to buy/sell for cheap locally. Look around, everytime a trade is set up these days, people pull out their smartphones. And for those tight-knit local communities, trading has been replaced by lending out cards. At least over here it's not uncommon to lend out 2000€ worth of cards to someone you have only seen at like 1 or 2 events. That's because we love Legacy and would do almost anything to keep promoting it.

I'll agree that trading has definitely gone down at least for me, since it's harder for newer players to afford, so I end up lending out 30+ duals, fetches, etc. at a given event to make sure we get enough for it to fire.

As for Modern Masters, I'd love for a ton more to get printed and lower the prices. As for box prices, 220 seems average, since there's already a ton on a market for sale at that price.

Thoughtseize should've been in this set. A $9 card has no reason being $60+. Hopefully they're reprinting it in less than a year, since it desperately needs a reprint, functional or exact.

-Matt

[nedleeds]

This

SCG pulls one dick move after another in terms of MM - first buying up boxes and reselling them for 300 bucks, now this.

... they are available on a well known retailers site for $280 free shipping. I'd still rather have a cold sore on my ball sack then play with a modern masters card in my deck but there is product out there.

[Finn]

I got four boxes for $140 each, boys. And I bought them locally last week from a guy who had been having trouble getting buyers. The store down the street was selling them for $160. I guess that makes me pretty darned lucky. The price variations in this crap is real money. I can't help but think that the prices HAVE TO drop some. If I get three more Tarmos I will have eight. I will gladly sell four of mine under the heinous price being asked for to recoup my costs on these boxes. I know I am not alone here. Even SCG can't stop extra cards from flooding the market.

[TheAardvark]

The market will correct itself to some degree around/right after GP Vegas, due to the fact that tons of product will be opened there. It is possible that some corrections could come before that, but I expect that will really make the change happen.

I have seen/been texted about 4 boxes being opened today so far with 0 'Goyfs. Of course, the fact that that is a box and a half (roughly) less than 4 boxes normally would be is something to keep in mind, but i thought I would mention it.

[SteakKnife]

I picked up 3 boxes today for 180 each and there were many cases left at the store when the 120 people that waited for the store to open left. It seems there is quite a lot of this product.

[lordofthepit]

The market will correct itself to some degree around/right after GP Vegas, due to the fact that tons of product will be opened there. It is possible that some corrections could come before that, but I expect that will really make the change happen.

I have seen/been texted about 4 boxes being opened today so far with 0 'Goyfs. Of course, the fact that that is a box and a half (roughly) less than 4 boxes normally would be is something to keep in mind, but i thought I would mention it.

24 boosters per box, 1 mythic per 8 boosters, 15 mythics in set. You expect 1 Goyf in 5 boxes.

[TheAardvark]

Fair enough; I wasn't interested enough to do the math, so I didn't bother. Thanks.

[Finn]

Really? 24 boosters in a box? Lame. Oh well. It's still probably a solid investment.

[TheAardvark]

Really? 24 boosters in a box? Lame. Oh well. It's still probably a solid investment.

I think $200 is the threshold if you plan to open them in order to flip singles. I managed to get some at MSRP from my LGS, and I am trading one away sealed at SCG tomorrow, and will likely try to do the same with the others, since value of a sealed box is a known quantity, and cracking them is, obviously, more variable.

[Dark Ritual]

Really? 24 boosters in a box? Lame. Oh well. It's still probably a solid investment.

Supposedly they did this because it makes it easier to draft. Crack open the box and you have enough product for an 8 man draft.

140 per box is insane. I would pay that price on a box of modern masters any day. The guy who sold them to you is not a good salesman in all likelihood if he couldn't unload them for at least MSRP as most places I see are charging more than $7 a pack.

As for GP Vegas in terms of introducing singles namely mythics and rares into the market, lets do the math.

Projected attendance: 4,000 (at least they're staffing the event with enough judges to handle 4,000 people from what I heard.)
6 packs are opened per entry.
4 Entries = 1 Box
1,000 Boxes opened then assuming an attendance of 4,000.
2 Foil mythics/rares per box means 2,000 foil rares/mythics introduced. I've heard of a lot of people opening 2 foil rares per box due to the guaranteed foil in each pack.
6 packs per entry times 4,000 = 24,000 packs.
24,000 packs means something in the area of a mix of 26,000 rares/mythics to be introduced into the market.
There are 53 rares and 15 mythic rares in the set. With 1 mythic per 8 packs that means 24,000 divided by 8 = 3,000 Mythic rares. Divide that by 15 and we get 200. So the number of nonfoil goyfs that will enter the market off a grand prix of 4,000 players for MM is 200. That's so much supply, right? I'm sure that will fix goyf's price with ease. What I'm trying to say is that the number of cards put into circulation off of GP Vegas is a drop in the ocean. 200 more cliques, goyfs, yosei's, bob's, etc. etc. is not that much. The number of foil goyfs will be very small as well/won't really help the price.

In terms of the number of rares entering the market, with 3,000 mythics out of 24,000 packs that leaves 21,000 normal rares. Divide that by 53. The number of a specific rare entering the market will be on average 396.23/396-397 of a given rare/not that many to fix the price around cryptic command and company. It will only make auriok salvagers worth even less, if that's even possible.

[ankharlyn]

Supposedly they did this because it makes it easier to draft. Crack open the box and you have enough product for an 8 man draft.

140 per box is insane. I would pay that price on a box of modern masters any day. The guy who sold them to you is not a good salesman in all likelihood if he couldn't unload them for at least MSRP as most places I see are charging more than $7 a pack.

As for GP Vegas in terms of introducing singles namely mythics and rares into the market, lets do the math.

Projected attendance: 4,000 (at least they're staffing the event with enough judges to handle 4,000 people from what I heard.)
6 packs are opened per entry.
4 Entries = 1 Box
1,000 Boxes opened then assuming an attendance of 4,000.
2 Foil mythics/rares per box means 2,000 foil rares/mythics introduced. I've heard of a lot of people opening 2 foil rares per box due to the guaranteed foil in each pack.
6 packs per entry times 4,000 = 24,000 packs.
24,000 packs means something in the area of a mix of 26,000 rares/mythics to be introduced into the market.
There are 53 rares and 15 mythic rares in the set. With 1 mythic per 8 packs that means 24,000 divided by 8 = 3,000 Mythic rares. Divide that by 15 and we get 200. So the number of nonfoil goyfs that will enter the market off a grand prix of 4,000 players for MM is 200. That's so much supply, right? I'm sure that will fix goyf's price with ease. What I'm trying to say is that the number of cards put into circulation off of GP Vegas is a drop in the ocean. 200 more cliques, goyfs, yosei's, bob's, etc. etc. is not that much. The number of foil goyfs will be very small as well/won't really help the price.

In terms of the number of rares entering the market, with 3,000 mythics out of 24,000 packs that leaves 21,000 normal rares. Divide that by 53. The number of a specific rare entering the market will be on average 396.23/396-397 of a given rare/not that many to fix the price around cryptic command and company. It will only make auriok salvagers worth even less, if that's even possible.

Not to mention 4000 players is probably an extremely high estimate.

[Fry]

I'd estimate probably a bit over 2,000 people for it, it's a GP out in Vegas, some people simply can't afford to stay/travel/eat out there who would otherwise love to do it. I'd be going out myself but I can't afford to do it and expect to eat.

[Amon Amarth]

4000 players is about equal to pass me that good shit you're smoking because you high as fuck.

I just drafted this set today and it's pretty damn sweet. Moldervine Cloak is a common in this set, lol. A lot of really crazy stuff you can do. I'd draft this set as much as I could because sweet cards + insane value. Really digging it.

[Memnoch]

I'd estimate probably a bit over 2,000 people for it, it's a GP out in Vegas, some people simply can't afford to stay/travel/eat out there who would otherwise love to do it. I'd be going out myself but I can't afford to do it and expect to eat.

As of Friday morning of the 7th, over 1700 people have pre-registered. Breaking 2k is likely. The organizers are estimating around 3k in attendance.

Should be pretty wild to see how crazy it is. Shame it's in such an awful part of town.

[TheAardvark]

The owner of my LGS is a slave to MSRP, so all FTV, etc. releases are always at MSRP. This is offset by everything being MSRP and never having real sales of any kind. So, it's a double-edged sword.

And I didn't just mean the cards at the GP entering the market, as I was (unclearly, apparently) referring to all the cards being opened between now and then. I think there will be plenty of singles out there, but what I saw at SCG yesterday makes me believe that I was incorrect in thinking prices will lower on MM cards; if anything, they'll just rise, which is amusing and frustrating.

[Barook]

And I didn't just mean the cards at the GP entering the market, as I was (unclearly, apparently) referring to all the cards being opened between now and then. I think there will be plenty of singles out there, but what I saw at SCG yesterday makes me believe that I was incorrect in thinking prices will lower on MM cards; if anything, they'll just rise, which is amusing and frustrating.
There's still a second wave of boxes coming, so we don't know how big that print run is.

[Megadeus]

I do think prices will come down a bit. Just not immediately. Give it a month Id say

[Aggro_zombies]

I do think prices will come down a bit. Just not immediately. Give it a month Id say
Prices on commons/uncommons should start dropping on ebay relatively soon. Rares and mythics will take longer, depending on the starting price of those cards. The Kamigawa dragons should fall since who wants those, but stuff like Bob and Goyf will stay high for a while because the demand for them is high.

Internet retailers will probably fuck up the math a little bit depending on how long they try to keep prices inflated.

[SteakKnife]

The store I bought from had 100+ boxes for the first wave and said they were only getting 4 for the second wave.


There's still a second wave of boxes coming, so we don't know how big that print run is.

[Megadeus]

My LGS said they are getting like 2 boxes from the so called "Second wave". Hardly reinforcements...