Thread for going out on a limb

[lordofthepit]

I thought it would be fun to make a thread where you can state your opinion things which are very different from what most people think. I'm definitely not proclaiming myself to be an expert at predicting the future; for instance, I correctly said that Temporal Mastery would not be good in the format, but incorrectly though that Deathrite Shaman would not see long-term play except in Elves.

Here's my most recent prediction: the new legendary permanent/planeswalker rules will not affect the metagame. It will certainly change how some games play out, but the overall impact will be comparable to that felt when we lost damage on the stack and mana burn. (The reason I mention this is because two SCG premium articles today suggest that JtMS became much better.)

[Quasim0ff]

I am quite certain that the metagame will shift, due to Jace-Decks becoming more concerned about the mirror.
This will eventually mean that, i think, it will be forced to adapt a lot.

I don't think Jace changes a lot. Clique got worse thou, and Show and Tell will be more focused on Omnitell/Dream Halls variants.

[TsumiBand]

The new uniqueness rule will force Blue players to play real answers to planeswalkers, instead of using silly things like "the rules of the game" to win games. Speculators unfamiliar with the finer points of Magic will fixate on terrible cards such as Psionic Blast and Thought Devourer, driving their respective price points unnecessarily high. In unrelated news, in the third quarter of 2013 the value of my homebrew mono-Blue deck will skyrocket, and I will finally be able to attain a line of credit to the extent of that value which will net me that Gibson Les Paul I've been meaning to get for the last my entire life.

[twndomn]

Here's my most recent prediction: the new legendary permanent/planeswalker rules will not affect the metagame. It will certainly change how some games play out, but the overall impact will be comparable to that felt when we lost damage on the stack and mana burn. (The reason I mention this is because two SCG premium articles today suggest that JtMS became much better.)

No, this rule change will consequently cause some cards to be banned, aka Gaea's Cradle.

[Malakai]

Geist of Saint Traft is terrible in non-aggressive decks.

[bruizar]

I thought it would be fun to make a thread where you can state your opinion things which are very different from what most people think. I'm definitely not proclaiming myself to be an expert at predicting the future; for instance, I correctly said that Temporal Mastery would not be good in the format, but incorrectly though that Deathrite Shaman would not see long-term play except in Elves.

Here's my most recent prediction: the new legendary permanent/planeswalker rules will not affect the metagame. It will certainly change how some games play out, but the overall impact will be comparable to that felt when we lost damage on the stack and mana burn. (The reason I mention this is because two SCG premium articles today suggest that JtMS became much better.)

I support your prediction.

[apple713]

No, this rule change will consequently cause some cards to be banned, aka Gaea's Cradle.

Cradle won't get banned. It's not that good. If u have a lot of creatures for it to be good you are probably winning already.

[Koby]

Thespian Stage / Dark Depths is overhyped garbage. It will win some games against scrubs, but against any player worth their salt it will be a colossal waste of time and resources.

[Kich867]

No, this rule change will consequently cause some cards to be banned, aka Gaea's Cradle.

I can't really get behind this line of thought, as I feel it can only be reached through not actually thinking what Gaea's Cradle does in the deck it's used in (elves).

First off, elves loses to all things: removal, counter spells, discard, and board wipes. It's not a particularly great deck against enough of a diverse meta to reliably make it through most tournaments. Secondly, having more mana (which is, most of the times, -not- the issue of the deck) doesn't actually help it, it's rarely the thing it needs, it needs a lot of creatures to draw more cards. Anyone who's played the deck for an extended period of time will tell you: if you have the choice between drawing cards or making mana, always draw more cards, it'll just naturally lead to more mana.

So we've established that elves both: isn't that great of a deck and the benefit of gaea's cradle in multiples isn't all that useful. Elves already has all the mana it ever needs just inherently. Odds are, you're looking at your hand and hoping to dig to a GSZ, Natural Order, or Glimpse of Nature. And you're doing that because you have a lot of mana and are bouncing visionaries like crazy.

[Tammit67]

Going out on a limb: I don't think deathblade is a good deck at all. You got a deck that is trying to do everything without actually being good at any one thing to the point were anything focused can just overwhelm it. I'll attribute its recent success to the lack of combo at higher tables and better players championing the deck as opposed to something else.

[Arsenal]

I don't think deathblade is a good deck at all.

I wouldn't go so far as to say it's not good "at all", but when I look at it, it really just looks like UWB Fish decks of old, just updated with the newest toys to play with.

[lordofthepit]

Cradle won't get banned. It's not that good. If u have a lot of creatures for it to be good you are probably winning already.

I think it's okay, but I don't consider it a top deck. It seems terrible against most combo decks, in addition to aggressive decks like Merfolk and a deck with better inevitability like Punishing Jund.

[lordofthepit]

Thespian Stage / Dark Depths is overhyped garbage. It will win some games against scrubs, but against any player worth their salt it will be a colossal waste of time and resources.

I like this as an occasional tutorable combo in Lands or Knight of the Reliquary decks as an occasional trick, a la Loyal Retainers in Survival/Maverick. I do agree building a deck around it is terrible though.

[Tammit67]

I wouldn't go so far as to say it's not good "at all", but when I look at it, it really just looks like UWB Fish decks of old, just updated with the newest toys to play with.

I'm on a limb dammit, don't try to let me edge closer to safety!

[testing32]

Going out on a limb: I don't think deathblade is a good deck at all. You got a deck that is trying to do everything without actually being good at any one thing to the point were anything focused can just overwhelm it. I'll attribute its recent success to the lack of combo at higher tables and better players championing the deck as opposed to something else.

Have you tested with this deck yet? I think it's the real deal and it's combo match up is not bad. It's proactive plan forces opponents to interact and quickly or they get buried. With the original esper blade you could keep a loose hand and be find if they didn't have a SFM.

Edit - Jund is the only deck I've tested against deathblade that has had an obvious advantage.


Thespian Stage / Dark Depths is overhyped garbage. It will win some games against scrubs, but against any player worth their salt it will be a colossal waste of time and resources.

100% agree here. You lose 2 maybe 3 cards to get a 20/20 which gets killed by a snapcaster flashing back a swords.

Cradle won't get banned either. Mox Opal still won't be that good.

[Tammit67]

Have you tested with this deck yet? I think it's the real deal and it's combo match up is not bad. It's proactive plan forces opponents to interact and quickly or they get buried. With the original esper blade you could keep a loose hand and be find if they didn't have a SFM.

Edit - Jund is the only deck I've tested against deathblade that has had an obvious advantage.


Deathblade's combo matchup is not favorable. You have very little in terms of clock, no mana disruption and lists these days have been cutting counters for discard (meaning storm is happier since you have a harder time interacting on their turn and show and tell is happier since they just bring in leyline of sanctity and shut you down).

The deck grinds and rewards pros for making consistently good decisions. It weakens its manabase to include all the sweet cards pros want to play and have experience with in other formats.

Saying a deck has a proactive plan that forces an opponent to interact or lose is meaningless: this is legacy. Unlike Limited or Standard, we are less concerned about card advantage in the traditional sense and more concerned about executing a gameplan while disrupting our opponents (with some notable exceptions on the disruption front). If you do not interact you better have speed since the threats in this format are powerful and diverse enough to make purely reactive plans bad. With the exception of all in decks with no disruption, every deck in the format looks to interact and forces certain lines of interaction, deathblade is not alone in this.

Why do I have no respect for this deck? I feel there are much better much more playskill rewarding decks out there besides the latest pile of jam 60 powerful cards across 4 colors with little synergy together

[Mr Miagi]

Going out on a limb: I don't think deathblade is a good deck at all. You got a deck that is trying to do everything without actually being good at any one thing to the point were anything focused can just overwhelm it. I'll attribute its recent success to the lack of combo at higher tables and better players championing the deck as opposed to something else.

Damn, this forum really needs a like button!

+1 on this

[thecrav]

I thought it would be fun to make a thread where you can state your opinion things which are very different from what most people think.

I think this thread will eventually turn into another reserved list dicussion!

So I guess my take: I would perfectly happy if my collection's value was cut in half if it meant twice as many people playing legacy at my LGS.

[_Fortune_]

I think this thread will eventually turn into another reserved list dicussion!

So I guess my take: I would perfectly happy if my collection's value was cut in half if it meant twice as many people playing legacy at my LGS.

Agree 110%

[Amon Amarth]

Going out on a limb: I don't think deathblade is a good deck at all. You got a deck that is trying to do everything without actually being good at any one thing to the point were anything focused can just overwhelm it. I'll attribute its recent success to the lack of combo at higher tables and better players championing the deck as opposed to something else.

Yeah, Deathblade suffers from trying to jam all the "second-coming-of-Jesus-in-cardboard-form" creatures into one deck. FFS, haven't we stopped collectively nutting over DRS yet?


Thespian Stage / Dark Depths is overhyped garbage. It will win some games against scrubs, but against any player worth their salt it will be a colossal waste of time and resources.

I'm not sure if there is a new archetype that can be built to take advantage of it but I think there is certainly potential there. A UG, splashing white or black, Counterbalance shell would be pretty cool with Standstill and Loam and Intuition. You can run goyfs and factories as additional wincons and CB is pretty awesome against all those mean anti-DD cards. Something I've been tinkering with, anyways.

I think the combo absolutely has a place in 43 Lands because Stage is awesome with Chasm, Port, Maze, etc. and the combo is easily recurred, DD only takes two slots and can be replayed quickly via Exploration. Here, the combo is something you can assemble easily. It gives you inevitability and reduces the chance you'll draw games by a significant margin. The deck is still a control/prison/ramp hybrid monstrosity but now it can also kill out of nowhere too.

In the next decade, we will see these cards unbanned:

Mind Twist (gotta keep Land Tax in check somehow)
Black Vise (Lava Dart in permanent form)
Worldgorger Dragon (maybe a new combo deck that can also lose to everything)
Goblin Recruiter (throw enough goblins and it a format and it'll go away)
Hermit Druid (people end up playing Swords, Bolt and Tormod's Crypt... MAINDECK!)
Earthcraft (elves or something)
Memory Jar (MUD needs more awesome and so does combo maybe)
Frantic Search (High Tide isn't good enough yet)
Mind's Desire (UU is a bitch)
Survival of the Fittest (some people haven't played it)

We may also see Misstep, Windfall, Drain and Seal too. Maybe. Basically, everything you could possibly unban without turning the format into Vintage.

[Freggle]

I think this thread will eventually turn into another reserved list dicussion!

So I guess my take: I would perfectly happy if my collection's value was cut in half if it meant twice as many people playing legacy at my LGS.

I'll go out on a limb and say it would be a win-win for the Legacy community and Wizards if 80% or more of players on here would support Legacy on MTGO, and Legacy wouldn't "die."

Players (at least for now) get access to cards at cheaper prices

Players (given their local area) get access to a higher caliber play

Wizards gets a control environment to prove that abolishment of the reserve list is good for eternal formats, and could prove the impetus to persue it's abolishment in paper. (Reserve list does not exist online)

Wizards gets a direct cut, and therefore direct involvement

...I could go on. Supporting Legacy online is supporting it everywhere.

[ankharlyn]

I'll go out on a limb and say it would be a win-win for the Legacy community and Wizards if 80% or more of players on here would support Legacy on MTGO, and Legacy wouldn't "die."

Players (at least for now) get access to cards at cheaper prices

Players (given their local area) get access to a higher caliber play

Wizards gets a control environment to prove that abolishment of the reserve list is good for eternal formats, and could prove the impetus to persue it's abolishment in paper. (Reserve list does not exist online)

Wizards gets a direct cut, and therefore direct involvement

...I could go on. Supporting Legacy online is supporting it everywhere.

I will never pay into MTGO, unless each card was a fixed cost, and boosters were greatly reduced in price. The fact of the matter is that you don't "own" cards on MTGO. You're leasing them. And they're not even cards, they're just images. At any time, WotC can revoke your entire collection without notice. If Hasbro/WotC was sold, the new owner could shut MTGO down, and you'd have zero recourse.

At least with physical cards, I am not restricted by whether or not WotC exists. If WotC poofed into the ether right this minute, I would still be able to play Magic. If my collection was in MTGO, I'd simply be screwed out of thousands of dollars.

Given that *HUGE* risk (anyone that has been around the internet for a while should know these services are not eternal, and there is no compensation if they are shut down for whatever reason), the cards (and esp. sealed product) should not cost anywhere near the same amount as actual physical cards (which you OWN, and are not LEASING, unlike MTGO).

Now, do I think MTGO will disappear over night like that? No. Even if Hasbro were bought out entirely, whatever company owned them would almost certainly still support MTGO. But it's a non-zero factor and *GREATLY* increases risk, and hugely decreases any value the cards have.

MTGO is not an answer to Legacy's problems with the reserved list, at all.

Not to mention that there's also the issue of MTGO being a pale imitation of the real game, due to complete lack of social interaction, which is a huge draw for the game.

If I could buy complete sets for a flat rate, MTGO might be worth it. As it is, it's not even remotely a replacement. Way too much risk in leasing digital objects.

[Koby]

If I could buy complete sets for a flat rate, MTGO might be worth it. As it is, it's not even remotely a replacement. Way too much risk in leasing digital objects.

You can. Most Standard sets go for about 90-110$ per.

[ThomasDowd]

I'm pretty stoked I got more lotus petals.

Thanks legendary rule.

[nedleeds]

I think this thread will eventually turn into another reserved list dicussion!

So I guess my take: I would perfectly happy if my collection's value was cut in half if it meant twice as many people playing legacy at my LGS.

Hard to see our collections tanking too badly if twice as many people are playing the format. :eyebrow:

I'll go out on a limb and say the Washington D.C. Legacy GP is the biggest 'Merican Legacy GP ever and that there will be an unbanning in the BNR announcement a few weeks prior.

[jarvisyu]

Thespian Stage / Dark Depths is overhyped garbage. It will win some games against scrubs, but against any player worth their salt it will be a colossal waste of time and resources.

this 100%

[ankharlyn]

You can. Most Standard sets go for about 90-110$ per.

I wasn't talking about buying from bots after people have opened booster packs. I'm talking about MTGO offering the set for like $30-40 on initial release. Probably even playset to be really worth it.

Of course, that wouldn't work well with the current set redemption stuff, but I'd trade set redemption for being able to just buy all the cards I'd need on MTGO for a low rate. Paying the price of real cards simply to lease images is pretty insane, especially given the randomization.

[Koby]

I wasn't talking about buying from bots after people have opened booster packs. I'm talking about MTGO offering the set for like $30-40 on initial release. Probably even playset to be really worth it.

Of course, that wouldn't work well with the current set redemption stuff, but I'd trade set redemption for being able to just buy all the cards I'd need on MTGO for a low rate. Paying the price of real cards simply to lease images is pretty insane, especially given the randomization.

Dude, pass over that joint once you toke. That's some primo grass.

i.e., you're a fool for thinking a) they would give away that shit so cheaply b) that sets of magic are worth so low. I'll grant you that you were going out on a limb, but I see no possible way for this to be beneficial for Paper Magic, as doing so would undercut it so severely.

[Freggle]

I will never pay into MTGO, unless each card was a fixed cost, and boosters were greatly reduced in price. The fact of the matter is that you don't "own" cards on MTGO. You're leasing them. And they're not even cards, they're just images. At any time, WotC can revoke your entire collection without notice. If Hasbro/WotC was sold, the new owner could shut MTGO down, and you'd have zero recourse.

At least with physical cards, I am not restricted by whether or not WotC exists. If WotC poofed into the ether right this minute, I would still be able to play Magic. If my collection was in MTGO, I'd simply be screwed out of thousands of dollars.

There are a few things you are saying here.

*You say not having physical cards is a detriment to your control of them. This is true is is the direct correlation to your faith in Wizards. Just like the Dollar is faith in the US Government. No question. However, the more people play the more value they have.

*You imply that playing online has to replace paper. I see it as a supplement.

*You say that you would loose $1000's of $. Magic Online is different. Cards are very liquid. At 4:47AM on Christmas day if I want to sell my LED I can for a roughly 8% loss to a bot, and I can buy anything from a bot (as long as it is in stock.) In short. Since the cards are so liquid I see no reason to have more than (1) Legacy deck at a time personally. For a tier deck that could be anywhere from $150 to $800ish.


Given that *HUGE* risk (anyone that has been around the internet for a while should know these services are not eternal, and there is no compensation if they are shut down for whatever reason), the cards (and esp. sealed product) should not cost anywhere near the same amount as actual physical cards (which you OWN, and are not LEASING, unlike MTGO).

A good number of Legacy staples are significantly less. Karakas comes to mind. $100 in paper $2-3 online.


Not to mention that there's also the issue of MTGO being a pale imitation of the real game, due to complete lack of social interaction, which is a huge draw for the game.

I do agree with this, but it could be improved by Wizards to include web chat. I will say though there is a lot of chat comradery online that I do enjoy. I think it's awesome that I can play with Koby for example when we are on different coasts. I chat with a number of Sourcers on there regularly, and banter about quite a bit. More than you would think.

I took about a month break and popped online for a few minute, and had an influx of messages. I had played online for about a month and a half prior to the break. I was flattered and taken back. It was a true testament to the community and the comradery that does exist online. Since my MTGO name is the same as my Source name I even get random people saying hi and talking shop. There is comradery, but it is different.


If I could buy complete sets for a flat rate, MTGO might be worth it. As it is, it's not even remotely a replacement. Way too much risk in leasing digital objects.

This has been answered.



I wasn't talking about buying from bots after people have opened booster packs. I'm talking about MTGO offering the set for like $30-40 on initial release. Probably even playset to be really worth it.

Of course, that wouldn't work well with the current set redemption stuff, but I'd trade set redemption for being able to just buy all the cards I'd need on MTGO for a low rate. Paying the price of real cards simply to lease images is pretty insane, especially given the randomization.

Here is the thing about Legacy online. When you have a deck in your possession at a split second is Wizards closed MTGO (which they would be out of their minds to do given the number of drafts I see fire on there) you could be out the money you put into the deck. However, whenever you want to sell out you could do so at a moments notice for about roughly lets just say 10-15% loss. (that might be too high) If you win any tournaments or 1-1's you can very quickly go into the black. I haven't run the numbers, but from a relatively mediocre skilled player I think I have slightly gained or have broken even online thus far if I were to sell out today.

There are a lot of pros to to playing online, just read through the MTGO Legacy questions thread. ...but I can see you may just not want to.

[ankharlyn]

Dude, pass over that joint once you toke. That's some primo grass.

i.e., you're a fool for thinking a) they would give away that shit so cheaply b) that sets of magic are worth so low. I'll grant you that you were going out on a limb, but I see no possible way for this to be beneficial for Paper Magic, as doing so would undercut it so severely.

It's not foolish when you understand you don't own your digital images of cards, and are merely leasing them. That impacts the value by an incredible amount. What you're saying is equivalent to telling a car dealer you'd lease a car from them for the price you could buy the same car from another dealer, every month. Except you're leasing, and don't actually have ownership of anything. If you actually think that, I have a car I'll lease to you for only $32,000 per month. You're welcome to pretend you own it, despite it being leased.

It's extremely naive of you to treat MTGO card leasing as if you actually owned anything. The prices on MTGO should reflect the fact that you're leasing, and they don't.

[Megadeus]

Im not exactly sure what you are getting at about the leasing or whatever. Im sure that despite not logging into my account in around a year that my shitty warp world deck from extended three years ago is still on there as well as all of the random crappy cards that I have collected through drafting a few times... I dont think them deleting your cards or whatever is quite as simple as you think.

[ankharlyn]

Im not exactly sure what you are getting at about the leasing or whatever. Im sure that despite not logging into my account in around a year that my shitty warp world deck from extended three years ago is still on there as well as all of the random crappy cards that I have collected through drafting a few times... I dont think them deleting your cards or whatever is quite as simple as you think.

Pretty irrelevant. You still don't own them. If, for whatever reason, WotC felt the need to shut down the service or revoke your cards, you have zero recourse. You are leasing the images, you don't own them. That decreases their value by a massive amount. The prices they charge currently don't reflect that at all.

It's all fine and well to pretend that MTGO is a service that will never go away, but (and I assume a lot of people here haven't experienced this, thus the fantasy land mentality thinking that you own the card images you've leased) as has been shown by countless other services where they sell you content in the same fashion, it is very much a thing that can happen.

The point is, leasing cards on MTGO is a piss poor replacement for owning actual cards, which are not shackled to MTGO still existing.

[Tao]

I go out on a limb and say that everyone who claims that Jace got better (or worse) with the new rules does not understand basic logic.

[Koby]

It's not foolish when you understand you don't own your digital images of cards, and are merely leasing them. That impacts the value by an incredible amount. What you're saying is equivalent to telling a car dealer you'd lease a car from them for the price you could buy the same car from another dealer, every month. Except you're leasing, and don't actually have ownership of anything. If you actually think that, I have a car I'll lease to you for only $32,000 per month. You're welcome to pretend you own it, despite it being leased.

It's extremely naive of you to treat MTGO card leasing as if you actually owned anything.

I understand what you're saying that we as consumers don't own the rights to the digital media. We also don't own the servers, or the code-base either. We (users of MTGO) have to agree to Wizards' terms of service to be able to play each time we load the program.

Your example doesn't make much sense however. If we go by your rubric, then I would be paying $3.99 for each booster on my account each month just for being in my account. That can't be farther from the truth. You buy it once and you keep it without any additional fees. You could trade it for its market value on the open marketplace. You could open it for the contents inside, that once again remain with your account. If the comparison you're making is that we're paying to maintain two collections, then yes I agree. I have a set of Force of Wills online and a set in paper. But I cannot use them interchangeably because they are two different games. In the online version, I can join Daily Events in the comfort of my own home while watching TV and sitting in my underwear while playing a 4 round Legacy event. In the paper version, I have to drive out to a crowded and often stinky game shop, shuffle endlessly, and wait around while noobs try to figure out how the rules work and misplay left and right. I have no qualms with playing the online version for this reason, and don't suspect my "collection" is at risk of evaporating in front of my very eyes. If I did have those reservations (which I do from time to time based on how WotC runs their business), I push to liquidate the portion that I do not want to risk.

Am I biased? Certainly. But at least on MTGO every player is forced to play by the rules of the game; while in paper there's a lot more grey area. I deal with specific and known trade margins that are much better than any paper vendor can offer. I don't need to tire my hands out by shuffling every turn from those illustrious fetchlands. I don't have to worry if my deck is sufficiently randomized, or if my opponent is stacking their deck.

TL;DR - It's personal faith that the company doesn't go under to be comfortable "leasing" the rights to play online.

In such an unlikely event that Wizards decides to "terminate" the game service:


If your Accounts are terminated it their entity due to Wizards' decision to cease offering the Game, you may participate in the Physical Redemption program provided you request redemption in accordance with Section 7 within twenty (20) days from the termination of the Game.

This applied to a majority of MTGO users as they play Standard and Limied.

[ankharlyn]

I understand what you're saying that we as consumers don't own the rights to the digital media.That's subtly different from what I'm saying. Of course you don't own any copyrights. You also don't own the digital objects you're buying. That's what I'm talking about.



TL;DR - It's personal faith that the company doesn't go under to be comfortable "leasing" the rights to play online.

That's exactly my point. And online service providers shown they have no problem shutting down and tossing your leased game objects into the ether, without a moment's notice. Because of that, the prices should not be the same as actual physical cards which you DO OWN.

[Koby]

That's exactly my point. And online service providers shown they have no problem shutting down and tossing your leased game objects into the ether, without a moment's notice. Because of that, the prices should not be the same as actual physical cards which you DO OWN.

They are not the same. It's been examined time after time after time: singles on MTGO are cheaper as a whole. If you're buying boosters from Wizards directly at MSRP (which they must sell at being the Manufacturer), then you are uninformed and foolish. Key to the argument that Legacy is sustainable online is the idea that Legacy is not a limited format. It does not require booster packs to play.

I understand you don't trust this thing called technology. That's fine, no one is forcing you to. But that doesn't make the "service" MTGO can provide "not real". It's very real, and is the future of MTG competitive environment. Perhaps not abusing the Terms of Service these game service providers provide would allow you to enjoy the content they deliver. Hacks/bots/exploits are not exercised by the plurality of online consumers.

[bruizar]

just google list canceled mmos. Heck, even MSN shut down, didn't it?

[ankharlyn]

Wow, the level of retard just went off the charts. Have fun watching your leased MTGO collection go POOF whenever WotC feels like it. Of course, no other internet content service has EVER shut down. OH WAIT, NO. SHITLOADS HAVE.

Meanwhile, people that are not retarded and understand that internet content services will not exist ad infinitum will be playing Magic, while you cry by yourself in a corner because WotC nuked your collection of leased card images.

[Freggle]

Wow, the level of retard just went off the charts. Have fun watching your leased MTGO collection go POOF whenever WotC feels like it. Of course, no other internet content service has EVER shut down. OH WAIT, NO. SHITLOADS HAVE.

Meanwhile, people that are not retarded and understand that internet content services will not exist ad infinitum will be playing Magic, while you cry by yourself in a corner because WotC nuked your collection of leased card images.

ankharlyn. I respect your risk aversion, but I fear this is bordering on fear mongering:

Below is a screenshot taken from my MTGO account agreement taken just moments ago:
http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a532/wizardsproof/WizardsAgreement_zps9a0da20f.jpg

The second paragraph mentions that I could get a physical copy if MTGO ceases to exist on the account of Wizards. So in your doomsday scenario it looks like I could financially "gain." I use quotes because the sudden influx of cards would dilute paper prices as we know them today.

MTGO is a fine product, and Legacy is a great format. I hope if you don't choose to support it others do because it can have benefits for the formats health in general.

[Memnoch]

So you're saying I can go and buy a full Legacy set online, then sit back and pray for it to shut down because then they will owe me physical copies of all the cards I purchased?

[Koby]

So you're saying I can go and buy a full Legacy set online, then sit back and pray for it to shut down because then they will owe me physical copies of all the cards I purchased?

Aside from being a poor use of your own resources, the redemption is limited to completed sets of redeemable sets currently in print. Pretty much 1x each card from a current Standard set.

[Memnoch]

Aside from being a poor use of your own resources, the redemption is limited to completed sets of redeemable sets currently in print. Pretty much 1x each card from a current Standard set.

Right, I do know that, but I think it's kind of off kilter to be talking about being able to benefit from your 'online' cards by turning them into physical cards as a backup for supporting MTGO if one cannot get their full collection redeemed.

They way I see it, MTGO is just like playing any other online game. You pay whatever amount you feel it's worth to you for your entertainment and yes, while it is active you can benefit from turning your virtual collection into cash (or other cards) but, at the end of the day, you are ultimately paying for nothing but your time and what it's worth to you. You pay for your entertainment and there is nothing wrong with that at all.

I do think the leasing analogy holds water though. You don't physically own anything and thus are subject to it one day being nothing. On the other hand if WotC were to go belly up completely and Magic were to die as a game, even the collectible value of the physical cards would fade after time.

In the end, play and support how you want is my motto.

[GoblinSettler]

Part of the motivation for changing the planeswalker and legendary rules is to make Jace more palatable. Everyone gets a Jace.

This foreshadows unbanning JTMS in Modern as of M14. This move is timed with Modern Masters to push the format.

[DLifshitz]

This foreshadows unbanning JTMS in Modern as of M14. This move is timed with Modern Masters to push the format.

Forget it. JTMS won't be unbanned when things like BBE and Vision are banned. They would have to completely revamp the format to the point where it would no longer be crap.

[Einherjer]

Forget it. JTMS won't be unbanned when things like BBE and Vision are banned. They would have to completely revamp the format to the point where it would no longer be crap.

Despite agreeing with you - don't you forget - this is the "Thread for going out on a limb" :D

Greetings

[ajfennewald]

I do think the leasing analogy holds water though. You don't physically own anything and thus are subject to it one day being nothing. On the other hand if WotC were to go belly up completely and Magic were to die as a game, even the collectible value of the physical cards would fade after time.

Yeah I doubt most legacy cards have a low enough supply to hold much value purely as collectors items. If I remeber right there are like 300k of each rivised dual. That is a a ton.

[TsumiBand]

Here's one for ya re: Modern -

Wizards will eventually be forced to acknowledge that a counterspell on a par with Daze or Force of Will is the only way to prevent the Modern banlist from plunging into a recursive cycle of "Ban best thing; next best thing dominates; next best thing must be overpowered". They will not reprint Force of Will because they are clowns, but they will devise a playable analog - something with a similar alternative casting cost, but no 'harder' a counterspell than Mana Leak. The banlist will shrink by at least 40%, and there will be much rejoicing.

[guelahpapyrus]

Part of the motivation for changing the planeswalker and legendary rules is to make Jace more palatable. Everyone gets a Jace.

This foreshadows unbanning JTMS in Modern as of M14. This move is timed with Modern Masters to push the format.

While I don't know if this prediction is correct, I think the spirit of it is. I think over the course of the next two to five years, the modern ban list will shrink considerably and the power level will be brought closer to legacy. I think that's why we're seeing such a distinct powercreep right now - they're trying to create a version of Legacy that they can control. I'll go out on the limb a little further: We'll see the pendulum swing back to powerful spells sometime in the next decade.

[nedleeds]

Im not exactly sure what you are getting at about the leasing or whatever. Im sure that despite not logging into my account in around a year that my shitty warp world deck from extended three years ago is still on there as well as all of the random crappy cards that I have collected through drafting a few times... I dont think them deleting your cards or whatever is quite as simple as you think.


BEGIN TRAN

DELETE FROM CardInstance CI
INNER JOIN Owner O ON O.OwnerID = CI.OwnerID
WHERE UPPER(O.UserName) = UPPER('Megadeus')

COMMIT TRAN

[TsumiBand]

BEGIN TRAN

DELETE FROM CardInstance CI
INNER JOIN Owner O ON O.OwnerID = CI.OwnerID
WHERE UPPER(O.UserName) = UPPER('Megadeus')

COMMIT TRAN

http://media.npr.org/blogs/talk/semicolon-c742156a43486a212ab8d7e89ed6cc163d1bc5a6-s6-c30.jpg

However, you're exactly right.

I've spent a little money here and there on in-app purchases and it always makes me feel like a dirty, dirty son of a bitch. I even went so far as to spend a little coin on a Facebook app that I enjoyed - that thing definitely got shutdown this year, and I have absolutely nothing to show for those purchases. They took my couple bucks, developed a different game and let the first one hit the skids.

Not saying MTGO would do that, but I mean you just cannot be certain and there is no reason to assume that any purchase you make is nearly as secure as the purchase of an actual card. Yes things can happen to your real-life cards too. Sometimes people spill soda on your Magic cards. Sometimes people try to be slick in the Terminal and move something to their /usr/bin and accidentally their whole hard drive, because reasons.

[nedleeds]

I've gotten lazy writing T-SQL instead of ANSI :rolleyes:

[TsumiBand]

I've gotten lazy writing T-SQL instead of ANSI :rolleyes:

Imagine my surprise jumping from Python to jQuery. }); still kind of makes me want to vomit. Unfortunately I can't get CoffeeScript working at work, for whatever the hell reason.

At any rate, the point stands - please folks, do not act like you're getting the same value out of these electronic transactions. There's no guarantees there at all. I just watched a client lose 8 months of data because some asshat made a tiny error in the office about, I dunno, 8 months ago, and it very sneakily ruined all of their data while making it look like they were still backing everything up. It doesn't exist anymore. It just doesn't. Nothing says your online cards can't do exactly the same thing.

Like I said I know IRL dumb shit happens too, people get their backpacks stolen or - God fucking forbid - assaulted and injured (or much much worse) for them. But the *kind* of act it takes to mess with data is generally surprisingly less malicious and considerably more incidental.

Just don't act like it's the same thing, that's all.

[ankharlyn]

All right, first I want to apologize for being a jerk.

Second, my only point is that leasing a card is not worth the same as owning a physical card. It just isn't. It's much less valuable because, at the end of the day, you own nothing, and your collection is completely beholden to MTGO existing and allowing you to have said collection, which is not the case with real cards. Charging the same prices for a lease on digital cards as it costs to buy a real physical card is insane.

Not to mention, whether you're aware of it or not, there is a huge precedent for content services just like MTGO to go belly up and screw all the people that paid for digital content. It's happened. Quite a lot. I doubt it will happen soon to MTGO, but leasing cards means you implicitly think MTGO will exist *forever*, which is a terrible bet.

Also, yes I'm aware of set redemption, but that essentially does not even apply for Legacy, since none (or at least, barely any) of the cards you need are from Standard sets which allow redemption.

[barcode]

Here's my most recent prediction: the new legendary permanent/planeswalker rules will not affect the metagame. It will certainly change how some games play out, but the overall impact will be comparable to that felt when we lost damage on the stack and mana burn. (The reason I mention this is because two SCG premium articles today suggest that JtMS became much better.)

I've tested several Esperblade matches with the new M14 rules and EVERY non-blowout game came down to who had Jitte online with counters first. In observing the other guys play one exhausted so many resources to deal with his opponent's equipment/Jace and ran out of threats.

In the Esper matchup Vindicate becomes so much more powerful with its primary targets being Jitte and Academy Ruins. Vindicating a Jace is only relevant if you don't have yours in play.



Dark Depths and Thespian's Stage is pretty damn sweet in a traditional Lands shell. Crop Rotation is a horrible card for Lands and should never be played. Just do the usual resource denial and use Depths to close it out. Building a deck around Crop Rotation and Knight of the Reliquary is asking for trouble.

[Koby]

Going to go out on a limb here - people are creating accounts and posting in this thread for the first time on The Source just to go out on a limb.

[TsumiBand]

Going to go out on a limb here - people are creating accounts and posting in this thread for the first time on The Source just to go out on a limb.

I look forward to their engaging, insightful, and fresh points of view regarding the price of dual lands.

[Megadeus]

Going to go out on a limb here - people are creating accounts and posting in this thread for the first time on The Source just to go out on a limb.

Are you one of these people? :p

[Mewens]

While I'm pretty sure that the legendary rule was meant to push duders in Theros block, it does open up the door for legendary, fetchable duals. While I have a hard time imagining they'd put shocks and legend-fetches in back-to-back blocks, legend-fetches seem like a really good idea.

They'd be super-solid in Standard, but self-limiting (do you really want to run 8 in a deck with limited card filtration); they'd complement shocks in Modern without replacing them (You'll want to run a mix of legendaries/shocks since the first legendary land is clearly better than the first shock, but shocks won't strip you); and they'd be a great boon for Legacy players of all stripes. OG duals are clearly better, but shaving hundreds of dollars off a deck price (by running a mix of legendary duals and basics in place of real duals) can't be bad for the format. It's also a great pack-seller for the EDH crowd; it just seems like a can't-lose.

The really nice thing? They'll simultaneously make it cheaper to get into Modern (by further diluting the price of shocks) while not hurting OG duals. In real eternal formats, they're stand-ins for OG duals; outside of some niche, 1- or 2-drop card that does something powerful for playing Legendary permanents, no one will run 'em over the originals.

I'm pretty sure we'll see something like this in the near future (that is, within 2 years).

There's my limb.

[aahz]

I'm going to go out on limb and say that after the coverage of Vintage Worlds in November, people will finally realize how awesome and deep the Vintage format really is.

[Mr. Safety]

Going out on a limb: Notion Thief is a good card.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

So you're saying I can go and buy a full Legacy set online, then sit back and pray for it to shut down because then they will owe me physical copies of all the cards I purchased?

You could, but you'd be waiting a long time.

Now, is that policy for standard cards (ala set redemptions) or all cards printed (U.Sea, eventually Black Lotus, LED, Chimney Imp, Sorrow's Path, Balance), it seems to imply the latter but I imagine they would be afraid of someone pitching a fit (although at the point they shut mtgo down, they probably wouldn't care anymore)?

[PirateKing]

Section 7 limits physical redemption to only sets available for physical redemption. While they are able to change what sets these are at any time, the current schedule is here (http://www.wizards.com/magic/digital/magiconline.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/calendar#magiconlineproductreleaseredemptionschedule). Historically the sets redeemable are only those legal in Standard, and have shown no indication whatsoever to alter this trend.

[Freggle]

All right, first I want to apologize for being a jerk.

Don't sweat it. I had my lapses too. Just keep it to a minimum, or eliminate it.

I understand your point about the risk. I just hope you can understand the point about finding proactive ways to preserve our format.

I read things on here all the time that Legacy will fold. Reduction of Starcity events, the recent price spikes, Wizards moving tournaments to private entities... All of the concerns are valid, but read very little in ways to help preserve the format.

Most people just want to know if it's time to sell out yet. I was simply trying to state you can play Legacy any day of the week in the comfort of your own home, and it would be a win-win for the community and Wizards yet very little support it.

Right now if I were Wizards why would I want to hang on to Legacy? It is a cost center. I don't sell Legacy packs, I don't know what kind of revenue is generated from a Legacy GP, and I'm asked to manage a Banned list, and field questions about a format that is extremely complex.

If the general Legacy community would support MTGO Legacy Wizards has a very real revenue stream (event entries for digiatl objects) to counterbalance that, and possibly give them a real reason not to sideline it. Other than that you just have the hope for people like myself. I played Magic over 10 years ago. Some people around me were playing again so I got back in ...to Legacy. Then subsequently drafting and sometimes playing Standard. I don't thing there are a lot of people like me out there though. ...and if there were returning what is the difference between Modern and Legacy if you were out 10 years?

[ankharlyn]

Don't sweat it. I had my lapses too. Just keep it to a minimum, or eliminate it.

I understand your point about the risk. I just hope you can understand the point about finding proactive ways to preserve our format.

I read things on here all the time that Legacy will fold. Reduction of Starcity events, the recent price spikes, Wizards moving tournaments to private entities... All of the concerns are valid, but read very little in ways to help preserve the format.

Most people just want to know if it's time to sell out yet. I was simply trying to state you can play Legacy any day of the week in the comfort of your own home, and it would be a win-win for the community and Wizards yet very little support it.

Right now if I were Wizards why would I want to hang on to Legacy? It is a cost center. I don't sell Legacy packs, I don't know what kind of revenue is generated from a Legacy GP, and I'm asked to manage a Banned list, and field questions about a format that is extremely complex.

If the general Legacy community would support MTGO Legacy Wizards has a very real revenue stream (event entries for digiatl objects) to counterbalance that, and possibly give them a real reason not to sideline it. Other than that you just have the hope for people like myself. I played Magic over 10 years ago. Some people around me were playing again so I got back in ...to Legacy. Then subsequently drafting and sometimes playing Standard. I don't thing there are a lot of people like me out there though. ...and if there were returning what is the difference between Modern and Legacy if you were out 10 years?

That's the thing though, the reason I pointed out the incredible risk in buying into MTGO is that I see it as being an absolutely terrible idea as a way to reinforce Legacy. The reason being, Legacy cards are expensive, which means you're paying a LOT of money to lease access to some digital card images versus just getting into Standard on MTGO (or whatever).

I see it as the absolutely wrong way to breathe life into Legacy. What they need to do is reprint non-reserved list staples (FoW, for instance) and/or get rid of the reserved list entirely. Obviously that's a whole different discussion, but I just don't see Legacy focus being shifted to MTGO, where you never own anything and your entire (expensive) collection can be poofed into nothing at the drop of a hat, as being in any way a good idea.

[Freggle]

That's the thing though, the reason I pointed out the incredible risk in buying into MTGO is that I see it as being an absolutely terrible idea as a way to reinforce Legacy. The reason being, Legacy cards are expensive, which means you're paying a LOT of money to lease access to some digital card images versus just getting into Standard on MTGO (or whatever).

I see it as the absolutely wrong way to breathe life into Legacy. What they need to do is reprint non-reserved list staples (FoW, for instance) and/or get rid of the reserved list entirely. Obviously that's a whole different discussion, but I just don't see Legacy focus being shifted to MTGO, where you never own anything and your entire (expensive) collection can be poofed into nothing at the drop of a hat, as being in any way a good idea.

I have actually contacted Wizards for clarification on what would happen to Legacy cards should Wizards decided to discontinue Magic Online. ...or if there are any other safeguards that exist for players willing to make such an investment. When I have an answer from them I will post it here.

When it comes to Legacy and breathing life into it I'd love to hear alternative ideas (like reprinting non-reserve list cards.) It just irks me from time-to-time to read about the death of Legacy when I know that we the players are the controlling party if we organize and support the format in a unified manner it likely wouldn't. I just feel there are things that we can be doing as players to help the situation (like possibly supporting MTGO) and not demanding/suggesting that someone else does something. Like Wizards printing more cards.

It's likely another thread but are there any other ideas that from a player / community control perspective that we could be doing to support Legacy or am I just nutz?

[Finn]

Freggle, I hear your passion. It's excellent, but you are talking social control here. It is a monumental task to motivate so many people. Wizards has the power just by printing cards and hosting events. The rest if us really don't. We can only do stuff locally, in our conclaves. Man I have tried this. Legacy is a hard sell to people who think shelling out $20 a week on draft is a hardship. Or who can't see past this season's Standard. Most Magic players are too young to fully understand the value of even saving their cards for a few months. I have had my Bazaars of Baghdad for seventeen years and not once used them. It's a different mindset, and one that is increasingly hard to sell to the revolving populace of college students who have recently found this game.

[ankharlyn]

When it comes to Legacy and breathing life into it I'd love to hear alternative ideas (like reprinting non-reserve list cards.) It just irks me from time-to-time to read about the death of Legacy when I know that we the players are the controlling party if we organize and support the format in a unified manner it likely wouldn't. I just feel there are things that we can be doing as players to help the situation (like possibly supporting MTGO) and not demanding/suggesting that someone else does something. Like Wizards printing more cards.

It's likely another thread but are there any other ideas that from a player / community control perspective that we could be doing to support Legacy or am I just nutz?

Well, I don't think it unreasonable to call for Wizards to reprint non-RL staples. No one was promised they wouldn't ever be reprinted, and they certainly need it.

I do agree that I think more organization and focus would help with players bootstrapping our own efforts to help encourage Legacy play.

I don't think moving to MTGO is the answer. Imagine, for a moment, that everyone sold their paper Legacy collections to some hoarder and bought into MTGO Legacy. Then MTGO goes belly up. Most cards are then in the hands of hoarders, and people that actually wanted to *play* Legacy are totally boned. That's just a hypothetical worst case, obviously (and I don't think all supply would be in the hands of people that are unwilling to sell, but I also don't know anyone that would sink $10k into rebuying a paper collection after having their MTGO collection go up in smoke).

I don't know what the real answer is. But for certain the easiest path to having a better Legacy format for all players is for WotC to reprint non-RL staples. I also wouldn't mind seeing legendary dual lands, like people have been mentioning after the legendary rules changes.

[Barook]

Here's one for ya re: Modern -

Wizards will eventually be forced to acknowledge that a counterspell on a par with Daze or Force of Will is the only way to prevent the Modern banlist from plunging into a recursive cycle of "Ban best thing; next best thing dominates; next best thing must be overpowered". They will not reprint Force of Will because they are clowns, but they will devise a playable analog - something with a similar alternative casting cost, but no 'harder' a counterspell than Mana Leak. The banlist will shrink by at least 40%, and there will be much rejoicing.
I think it's more likely that they'll eventually kill Modern due how they handle the format. Just remember how they killed Extended. Reprints are fine, but that doesn't help the fact that they take a dump on the format with constant bannings.

Any bets when they're going to ban Birthing Pod? I'll give it 2 more ban announcements at best.

[Amon Amarth]

I think it's more likely that they'll eventually kill Modern due how they handle the format. Just remember how they killed Extended. Reprints are fine, but that doesn't help the fact that they take a dump on the format with constant bannings.

Any bets when they're going to ban Birthing Pod? I'll give it 2 more ban announcements at best.

Pod was fucked the moment they banned Bloodbraid Elf. Next announcement.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

I go out on a limb and say, that MTGO dies soon after the real game dies (Wotc stops printing new sets or something.)

[obituary 95]

i will go out on a limb and say that fetch lands are overrated. you dont always want to play 8x fetch land in every deck. sometimes the mana does not want them.

[Quasim0ff]

i will go out on a limb and say that fetch lands are overrated. you dont always want to play 8x fetch land in every deck. sometimes the mana does not want them.

That's really not going out on a limb....?
that's just common knowledge.

(ref: see U/B walker control.)

[rockout]

Thespian Stage / Dark Depths is overhyped garbage. It will win some games against scrubs, but against any player worth their salt it will be a colossal waste of time and resources.

Thank you for this. I've been telling my team to stop with the dark depths brewing and play good cards that don't auto lose to one of the most played removal spells in stp/path-effects.

On a lighter note, modern masters won't make any of the intended cards significantly cheaper. It will cause enough hype for me to sell off some stuff before the masses realize.

[thecrav]

Here's one for ya re: Modern -

Wizards will eventually be forced to acknowledge that a counterspell on a par with Daze or Force of Will is the only way to prevent the Modern banlist from plunging into a recursive cycle of "Ban best thing; next best thing dominates; next best thing must be overpowered". They will not reprint Force of Will because they are clowns, but they will devise a playable analog - something with a similar alternative casting cost, but no 'harder' a counterspell than Mana Leak. The banlist will shrink by at least 40%, and there will be much rejoicing.

100% agreed. I'm putting off on buying anything for modern because the last three times I've considered getting into the format, my deck of choice has been banned. Rather than printing answers, they're banning problems.


I'm going to go out on limb and say that after the coverage of Vintage Worlds in November, people will finally realize how awesome and deep the Vintage format really is.

I sure hope so. I guess this means I need to hurry up and get my power before November!

[HammafistRoob]

Thank you for this. I've been telling my team to stop with the dark depths brewing and play good cards that don't auto lose to one of the most played removal spells in stp/path-effects.
Since when is gaining 20 life auto-losing? I acknowledge the fact that the combo is definitely over-hyped, but it's the real deal in 38+Lands.dec.

Keeping the tradition, I'm going to go out on a limb and say the new Gaea's Cradle interaction is also over-hyped. I think people will realize it only became marginally better, and that running 4 still has a pretty big impact on your opening hand consistency. Prices will start to fall sometime around mid August.

[Freggle]

I have actually contacted Wizards for clarification on what would happen to Legacy cards should Wizards decided to discontinue Magic Online.

For what it is worth Wizards politely referred me back to:

Answer Title: Magic Online: Redemption Policies
Answer Link: http://wizards.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/984

and the Online User Agreement and Software License for your review:
http://wizards.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1358

and said if I had any questions they can only advise that I contact my legal counsel.

[Quasim0ff]

I'm going to go out on limb and say that after the coverage of Vintage Worlds in November, people will finally realize how awesome and deep the Vintage format really is.

I sure hope so, vintage is more fun than it has been for as long as I remember. (Quit before Thirst-era, but been playing for must of the gush eras. Workshop is dub)

[Shawon]

Going out on a limb: Affinity is currently the most powerful and skill-intensive aggro deck in the format. Yes, it require more skill to pilot than Goblins, Zoo, Merfolk, Jund, and even Maverick. The reason it doesn't do well despite being popularly played is because most pilots are awful as well as the decks they play. Case in point, the only guy (I believe) top 16'd SCG last year with Affinity, Kevin Green. Not only was his Affinity build god awful in construction, but he lost a feature match to a BUG control deck that didn't even fucking run Pernicious Deed, and he lost a game DESPITE RESOLVING A FUCKING TEZZERET! Yes, I capitalized that last part because if you play Tezzeret correctly, unlike Kevin Green, the moment you resolve Tezzeret against any control deck, they can't win unless they kill Tezz on their next turn or kill you.

Going on a limb #2: Deathblade/Todd winning SCG this weekend should be an indicator of how underplayed aggro is in the format, especially Affinity. I don't even run Etched Champion anymore, but if I ran my previous builds that focused on hitting my opponent with an unblockable 10/2, I could easily plow through Deathblade like it was a fat chick since the only way that deck can connect a hit with a Jitte while I have Etched Champion in play is using its 1-of Clique, in which the Deathblade player might as well be playing the lottery.

[ankharlyn]

For what it is worth Wizards politely referred me back to:

Answer Title: Magic Online: Redemption Policies
Answer Link: http://wizards.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/984

and the Online User Agreement and Software License for your review:
http://wizards.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1358

and said if I had any questions they can only advise that I contact my legal counsel.

Sets that are no longer available for redemption cannot be redeemed. <----- Pretty clearly confirms what I was saying before. You aren't going to be able to redeem a Legacy collection if MTGO bites the bullet.

[GoblinSettler]

I think the new legenduals in Theros will go something like this:

Magical City Coast
Legendary Land
T: Add U
When this comes into play you may search your library for 'Magical City Woodlands', reveal it and put it into your hand.

Magical City Woodlands
Legendary Land
T: Add G
When this comes into play you may search your library for 'Magical City Coast', reveal it and put it into your hand.

Twice the mythic goodne$$. Doesn't fix mana as good as an original dual. Doesn't help support 3+ color decks. Enables shenanigans with the new legendary rule.

[troopatroop]

Not to make fun of you, but that idea is so far from thought out. Pure uncosted card advantage? How is that balanced in ANY way. SMH...

[GoblinSettler]

Not to make fun of you, but that idea is so far from thought out. Pure uncosted card advantage? How is that balanced in ANY way. SMH...

:)

This is not the thread for saying reasonable things.

Didn't consider the balance too hard. But I think these would be fine-ish in Standard. You have to Sinkhole yourself to play the third one. So you actually get to use Deathrite Shaman's mana ability. Is there some way to discard cards for profit?

I guess I could be more cautious and say, "I think that these lands could be spread across two cards." They could be check lands that tap for both colors only when both halves are in play and drop the etb fetch. A throw back to Urza lands.

Is it likely that the wide frame art on these lands is for a different unique presentation ala Zendikar? Too soon I say.

They could print them sideways as mockups have suggested. They could have alternate arts. They could crop away half the image and save it for Planechase. They could have huge text boxes that reduce the vertical space for the art. They could be a new Tribal. They could be standard frame on the front with full art backs you can flip. All of these options sound terrible to me.

[iamajellydonut]

You have to Sinkhole yourself to play the third one. So you actually get to use Deathrite Shaman's mana ability. Is there some way to discard cards for profit?
Yes, actually, there are. Several. Notably Brainstorm and Liliana and Liliana and protection from Hymn to Tourach and so many other ways to abuse "I have more cards". Literally free cards, no matter how "bad", are always good. This would be amazing. This "duo" would literally played in any deck that felt like running either blue or green or just felt like having more cards.

[Barook]

Not to mention the insane synergy with Brainstorm. No, just no.

We're probably getting another set of standard-relevant "duals" instead of legendary duals.

[GoblinSettler]

Yes, actually, there are. Several. Notably Brainstorm and Liliana and Liliana and protection from Hymn to Tourach and so many other ways to abuse "I have more cards". Literally free cards, no matter how "bad", are always good. This would be amazing. This "duo" would literally played in any deck that felt like running either blue or green or just felt like having more cards.

I agree that this would be super busted in Legacy and understand that this is a Legacy forum. However, I was musing whether this would be broken in Standard. Wizards doesn't test for Legacy. These would be banned in Modern if they were a problem.

I had been thinking about the use in a two color deck, maybe OK. But going three color or more, an all Magical City mana base would be ridiculous.

I'll concede that these are a bad idea.

[testing32]

Is it going out on a limb to say that Drew Levin is wrong about young pyromancer?

[HammerAndSickled]

Is it going out on a limb to say that Drew Levin is wrong about young pyromancer?
That falls under the heading of "common knowledge" haha

[tsoatt]

Going out on a limb: Affinity is currently the most powerful and skill-intensive aggro deck in the format. Yes, it require more skill to pilot than Goblins, Zoo, Merfolk, Jund, and even Maverick. The reason it doesn't do well despite being popularly played is because most pilots are awful as well as the decks they play. Case in point, the only guy (I believe) top 16'd SCG last year with Affinity, Kevin Green. Not only was his Affinity build god awful in construction, but he lost a feature match to a BUG control deck that didn't even fucking run Pernicious Deed, and he lost a game DESPITE RESOLVING A FUCKING TEZZERET! Yes, I capitalized that last part because if you play Tezzeret correctly, unlike Kevin Green, the moment you resolve Tezzeret against any control deck, they can't win unless they kill Tezz on their next turn or kill you.

Going on a limb #2: Deathblade/Todd winning SCG this weekend should be an indicator of how underplayed aggro is in the format, especially Affinity. I don't even run Etched Champion anymore, but if I ran my previous builds that focused on hitting my opponent with an unblockable 10/2, I could easily plow through Deathblade like it was a fat chick since the only way that deck can connect a hit with a Jitte while I have Etched Champion in play is using its 1-of Clique, in which the Deathblade player might as well be playing the lottery.

What about his list was bad? Kevin may not be the the best overall magic player, but he has definitely come into his own as an affinity player and I am going to go out on a limb and say that he is better than you at affinity because he is the only one to top 16 in a while.

[DragoFireheart]

Right now if I were Wizards why would I want to hang on to Legacy? It is a cost center. I don't sell Legacy packs, I don't know what kind of revenue is generated from a Legacy GP, and I'm asked to manage a Banned list, and field questions about a format that is extremely complex.


And who's fault is that? WotC.

[DragoFireheart]

Here's one for ya re: Modern -

Wizards will eventually be forced to acknowledge that a counterspell on a par with Daze or Force of Will is the only way to prevent the Modern banlist from plunging into a recursive cycle of "Ban best thing; next best thing dominates; next best thing must be overpowered". They will not reprint Force of Will because they are clowns, but they will devise a playable analog - something with a similar alternative casting cost, but no 'harder' a counterspell than Mana Leak. The banlist will shrink by at least 40%, and there will be much rejoicing.

I agree.

Either that, or Modern dies off due to their incompetence.

My turn to go out on a limb: prices of core Legacy cards like dual lands will never tank. As long as WotC exists and StarCityGames exist, the prices will fluctuate but never tank.

[Koby]

My turn to go out on a limb: prices of core Legacy cards like dual lands will never tank. As long as WotC exists and StarCityGames exist, the prices will fluctuate but never tank.

You're really sticking your neck out with this statement. That's a totally bold statement.

[DragoFireheart]

You're really sticking your neck out with this statement. That's a totally bold statement.

Ok ok, I'll up the ante.

Even if WotC and StarCity games tank, Magic cards will retain their value.

[TsumiBand]

Ok ok, I'll up the ante.

Even if WotC and StarCity games tank, Magic cards will retain their value.

I dunno about that.

As much as Dr. Garfield may have stated that he would love for Magic to join the upper ranks of games of skill such as Poker, Chess, and other such games, it depends too much on new product to actually continue the interest and momentum.

Legacy players bitch because they (we) want the impossible; a perfect blend of new cards that comes out which strikes some mystical ever-moving goalpost of "powerful, potentially deck-spawning, unique -- but not if it just makes 'cheaterface' spells easier to cast or harder to deal with, and certainly not a new Blue creature." I think the only time they really managed to do that in a way that a majority of people will recognize was all the BG junk in RtR; "Rock with optional third color" is a much much stronger deck than ever. Even in the oldest of formats we still need some shake-up -- unless you're genuinely content playing the matchups, as they are today, for the rest of your life - and the only new technology you can ever add has already been printed.

Once the door officially closes on Magic, I suggest the only cards that hold their value are the oldest, most notorious staples. ABUR cards will probably be fine -- well okay, maybe just AB -- but a lot of things would just totally tank. I don't think Magic can actually freeze its design and carry on.

But then this isn't a thread for being reasonable is it, hah.

[javert]

Let's join the zeitgeist.

Mental Misstep should have never been banned in Legacy and therefore should have stayed legal in Modern too. It's banning was pushed by the scrub crowd that desperately wanted to believe their Zoo-Merfolk-Goblins crap was only a card away from being good in the format. Save Merfolk, which ocassionally appear because of all the new toys printed by Wizards, they are still terrible. Yes, there is the "Misstep your Misstep" issue but Wasteland also has this to a degree (no, I'm not even close as suggesting to ban Wasteland, that's way too much even for this thread).

Fetchlands and tutoring in general doesn't contribute at all at either balance or fun in the game. They stretch the initial turns from seconds to minutes, contribute to matches going to time, enable too much goodstuff deckbuilding (this is more of a Modern statement) , disable nonbasic hate and boost some key cards like brainstorm or top that is already quite prone to cheating and stalling. Although there bring some chicken-like states were players can play around, the drawbacks far outweight this. Playing with or against them is as fun as paying taxes. I don't know which is more likely - they getting banned or Wizards printing actual hate for them instead of symbolic hate like Leonin Arbiter (seriously, their treatment of tutoring as a sacred cow makes even less sense than their nerfing of land destruction).

[ESG]

Right now if I were Wizards why would I want to hang on to Legacy? It is a cost center. I don't sell Legacy packs, I don't know what kind of revenue is generated from a Legacy GP, and I'm asked to manage a Banned list, and field questions about a format that is extremely complex.


And who's fault is that? WotC.

I happened to talk with two new-to-Legacy players at the GPT today in Seattle. One said he liked Modern but felt that it wasn't getting regular support from WOTC, and the other liked the depth of Legacy and commented that it was a year-round format. Much like with Extended the past four years or so, people seem to play Modern primarily because of WOTC's events, not because they love the format. With Legacy, people come in and they stay. I doubt Modern would exist if WOTC wasn't propping it up.

[Benjammn]

Let's join the zeitgeist.

Mental Misstep should have never been banned in Legacy and therefore should have stayed legal in Modern too. It's banning was pushed by the scrub crowd that desperately wanted to believe their Zoo-Merfolk-Goblins crap was only a card away from being good in the format. Save Merfolk, which ocassionally appear because of all the new toys printed by Wizards, they are still terrible. Yes, there is the "Misstep your Misstep" issue but Wasteland also has this to a degree (no, I'm not even close as suggesting to ban Wasteland, that's way too much even for this thread).

Fetchlands and tutoring in general doesn't contribute at all at either balance or fun in the game. They stretch the initial turns from seconds to minutes, contribute to matches going to time, enable too much goodstuff deckbuilding (this is more of a Modern statement) , disable nonbasic hate and boost some key cards like brainstorm or top that is already quite prone to cheating and stalling. Although there bring some chicken-like states were players can play around, the drawbacks far outweight this. Playing with or against them is as fun as paying taxes. I don't know which is more likely - they getting banned or Wizards printing actual hate for them instead of symbolic hate like Leonin Arbiter (seriously, their treatment of tutoring as a sacred cow makes even less sense than their nerfing of land destruction).

MM fucked combo decks over too. Storm, Dredge, Reanimator, and Elves are all heavily affected by MM. The format was just blue decks as far as the eye can see. I think it wouldn't be quite as do minant today as it would have been then (it's an excellent tool vs. DRS, for instance), but playing Legacy in the era without blue duals was miserable.

Printing fetches, however, probably was a mistake. I wasn't playing at the time Onslaught was released so I don't know what people thought, but I don't know what possessed them to make them and possibly would have been very mad at the time. I mean, thank goodness we had Zendikar because the ONS fetches would probably be more than most duals now if they were the only ones.

[Grollub]

I'd go on a limb and say monoblue aggro-control is going to dominate thanks to True Name Nemesis.

Nemesis, Clique, Delver, Snapcaster and Back to Basics seems too unfair in one and the same deck.

[testing32]

I'd go on a limb and say monoblue aggro-control is going to dominate thanks to True Name Nemesis.

Nemesis, Clique, Delver, Snapcaster and Back to Basics seems too unfair in one and the same deck.

That's a lot of 3 drops with no acceleration and back to basics is no bloodmoon.

[DragoFireheart]

Let's join the zeitgeist.

Mental Misstep should have never been banned in Legacy and therefore should have stayed legal in Modern too.

Legalizing Mental Misstep is a good way to kill Storm combo decks.

MMS, FoW, Snappy, Discard? Ouch.

[Grollub]

That's a lot of 3 drops with no acceleration and back to basics is no bloodmoon.
Not like you have to play 4 of everyone. :-P

[firebadmattgood]

It's banning was pushed by the scrub crowd that desperately wanted to believe their Zoo-Merfolk-Goblins crap was only a card away from being good in the format.

Wat. MM was banned because it's its own best answer, thus every single non-combo deck wants it as a 4 of. If its casting cost was 2 phyrexian instead of 1, then it'd still be in the format.

[TsumiBand]

MM fucked combo decks over too. Storm, Dredge, Reanimator, and Elves are all heavily affected by MM. The format was just blue decks as far as the eye can see. I think it wouldn't be quite as do minant today as it would have been then (it's an excellent tool vs. DRS, for instance), but playing Legacy in the era without blue duals was miserable.

Printing fetches, however, probably was a mistake. I wasn't playing at the time Onslaught was released so I don't know what people thought, but I don't know what possessed them to make them and possibly would have been very mad at the time. I mean, thank goodness we had Zendikar because the ONS fetches would probably be more than most duals now if they were the only ones.

+1 for both. So +2, really.

I was just thinking about fetchlands the other day. On the whole, they are at the core of a lot of issues which are strictly Old Eternal-relevant. They push out just about any Green mana-fixing effects that aren't also ramp -- and even fixing + acceleration isn't enough these days, it has to also do something, like give a solo attacker +1/+1 or eat graveyards (Hierarch and DRS respectively). They are free tutors that allow a lot of good things, and a lot of bad things. The interaction with Brainstorm needs no introduction. Manabases arguably fix themselves, which makes one of Green's primary traits much worse than it 'ought to be'. You can get pretty greedy and go into several colors without a second thought - depending on your thoughts on this, it may even be too easy to do this without fear of retribution. Nobody gives a shit about nonbasic hate; it's often more incorrect to play less than 2 colors. One could go on, I reckon.

As for Mental Misstep, that was a lousy exercise in recursion. It answered all manner of aggressive, early spells, was touted as its own best answer, and could be played by every deck in the format. Why should every deck have the ability to counter 1-mana spells? How is that fine? Phyrexian mana was honestly a mistake, and it's one the game has made before; alternate casting costs with too few hoops to jump through are never okay because ultimately they just go into the best decks and eschew their color restrictions.

Really, the worst effects in the game are those which are generally not tied to colors or colored mana. Madness at least required an outlet; one would not play Basking Rootwalla outside a Green deck because you had that dependency on controlling a Wild Mongrel (or others) so you had to be sure that if you got your outlet handled, you could still cast it. Force of Will really is a fine equalizer; sure it says no to All The Things, but it's two cards, one life, and has classically required something like 16 - 18 other Blue cards in the deck in order to be viable, so you have to play Blue to use the effect reliably, which is fine. Phyrexian mana has no such restriction, so the spells can just go wherever. Which means, the best effects will just drift into the best decks, color-be-damned. By comparison to other typically cited free effects, a hard counter that costs just 2 life, or a spell which is 1 colorless and 4 life to kill any creature with toughness 5 or less, exist in a league all their own.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Tsumi, you're right.
But still, isn't there something satisfying in playing the fetches? You know - the best lands in the best format.

IDK.
Part o me thinks that fetches and BSlike+fetchland interactions are wonderful and I'm glad I got them. Otoh, I see how the fetchlands "warp" the format. It'll be interesting to make some analysis of this phenomenon, but you know, it's far, far too late.
I remember when the fetches came out twleve or so years ago. They were quite cheap, I mean 4 USD cheap or so. Ever since then they became omnipresent in several formats (with ZEN ones been important in Modern), formats both casual and competitive. I know that there's no point in envisioning how would the wolrd look like if this or that wouldn't happen, but still, I'm not sure if I dislike the fetchlands, how ever big mistake they might be. Look, we're talking about a game where Ancrestral Recall exists, where Shop is a four-of, where there is Jace 2.0, etc., I may even delve much more deeper and take out Contract From Below and stuff.

I feel strange nostalgia (mabye it's just that, and thus it says nothing about the health of a format and game) when thinking about the old times. You know, when you played BoP out of Brushland. But even now, when I finalize my one and only casual deck I'll keep - a deck that will never be played; it wil be kept as a testimony of the things from the past and in fact I don't really wish for a resurgence of our casual group, as it won't be the same as it was, namely once I made this amazing experience of several years in comp. environment -, ok, so even now when I finalize my casual deck, I realized I need to play fetchlands there. Yep, the deck would work without them, and yep, fetchlands will make it too pricey and yep, I did not even play the fetches those twelve or so years ago, but their power even in a non-BS deck is so obvious (and those Heaths are so nice cards) that I simply MUST play them.

I'd love to sort out my thoughts on this whole matter or better said: on my seventeen years in game. (Ok, I had breaks, but w/e.) I think that complexity of Magic (not only the game itself, but the collectible/social/finance aspects of it) is something really... I can't find the word and it definitely isn't just "interesting". But I simply don't know where to start, and as always, there are doubts - is it worthy the work, will it be interesting, am I able to describe what's going on in my mind, esp. considering I'd dip into philosophy of a children's pictorial game...

I've ha several really "interesting" - ok, not the best word again, but nvm - discussions in past several months, both a real discussions and also an "inner fights" to say it pathetically. These led me to where I'm now and I'm not even happy about it. (Not that it matters in any way.)

Bah.

[Quasim0ff]

Printing fetches, however, probably was a mistake. I wasn't playing at the time Onslaught was released so I don't know what people thought, but I don't know what possessed them to make them and possibly would have been very mad at the time. I mean, thank goodness we had Zendikar because the ONS fetches would probably be more than most duals now if they were the only ones.
People didn't understand fetches in ONS really. Brainstorm wasn't broken back then, due to no ancestral recall-effect on it (it was a card filterer, not a card draw).
Not untill brainstorm+fetch started being abused people understood the true place of fetches.

[TsumiBand]

Tsumi, you're right.
But still, isn't there something satisfying in playing the fetches? You know - the best lands in the best format.

IDK.
Part o me thinks that fetches and BSlike+fetchland interactions are wonderful and I'm glad I got them. Otoh, I see how the fetchlands "warp" the format. It'll be interesting to make some analysis of this phenomenon, but you know, it's far, far too late.
I remember when the fetches came out twleve or so years ago. They were quite cheap, I mean 4 USD cheap or so. Ever since then they became omnipresent in several formats (with ZEN ones been important in Modern), formats both casual and competitive. I know that there's no point in envisioning how would the wolrd look like if this or that wouldn't happen, but still, I'm not sure if I dislike the fetchlands, how ever big mistake they might be. Look, we're talking about a game where Ancrestral Recall exists, where Shop is a four-of, where there is Jace 2.0, etc., I may even delve much more deeper and take out Contract From Below and stuff.

I feel strange nostalgia (mabye it's just that, and thus it says nothing about the health of a format and game) when thinking about the old times. You know, when you played BoP out of Brushland. But even now, when I finalize my one and only casual deck I'll keep - a deck that will never be played; it wil be kept as a testimony of the things from the past and in fact I don't really wish for a resurgence of our casual group, as it won't be the same as it was, namely once I made this amazing experience of several years in comp. environment -, ok, so even now when I finalize my casual deck, I realized I need to play fetchlands there. Yep, the deck would work without them, and yep, fetchlands will make it too pricey and yep, I did not even play the fetches those twelve or so years ago, but their power even in a non-BS deck is so obvious (and those Heaths are so nice cards) that I simply MUST play them.

I'd love to sort out my thoughts on this whole matter or better said: on my seventeen years in game. (Ok, I had breaks, but w/e.) I think that complexity of Magic (not only the game itself, but the collectible/social/finance aspects of it) is something really... I can't find the word and it definitely isn't just "interesting". But I simply don't know where to start, and as always, there are doubts - is it worthy the work, will it be interesting, am I able to describe what's going on in my mind, esp. considering I'd dip into philosophy of a children's pictorial game...

I've ha several really "interesting" - ok, not the best word again, but nvm - discussions in past several months, both a real discussions and also an "inner fights" to say it pathetically. These led me to where I'm now and I'm not even happy about it. (Not that it matters in any way.)

Bah.

Well don't get me wrong, I'm not calling for them to be banned. But, they have the same 'problem' that a lot of people dislike about Blue, right -- they are essentially tutors that go in every deck, and they steal Green's job of mana fixing. In concert with dual lands, a playset of any given fetchlands can grab any color of mana in the game.

A lot of people have said as much, but Vintage/Legacy/any given Eternal format has a power level relative to the most powerful cards from that length of time. It's sort of an obvious statement, but considering that Standard rotates and can represent itself in several different ways, something like Skullclamp or JTMS can just rotate out and cease to define that format. They hang around forever in Eternal though (save bannings, which is always unfortunate and extreme), and the variance is a lot higher the further back in time you go.

I mean, they also propel the format in such a way that I don't think their impact can be overstated. Even if dual lands did not exist, they would still represent a fantastic means of getting the color you need in a two-color deck. I think they do more good than harm, ultimately, but that doesn't make them any less egregious in their thievery of Green being best at tutoring for land, fixing mana, and so on.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Yes, exactly my thoughts! And btw, I'm sorry if I sounded like I wish to ban them, it wasn't my intention. And I'd miss them.

[Mewens]

I'm kind of in the same position as BDP on the fetches.

They're obviously really strong, they open up a lot of interesting play decisions, and you can glean a lot of information in a match from how your opponent uses them. That's all good stuff that makes the game more interesting.

What I don't like about them is that they're obviously techy and "meta-designed" (that is to say, they're designed to interact within the context of existing pieces. The effect makes no sense prima facie – just think of a new player looking at the card, and how unusual the idea of paying life and sacrificing lands to fetch a basic is; compare to ABU duals: even if their text is bananas, the concept is super-easy to grasp); they also make color-fixing trivial. I feel like they violate the core principle of the color pie, that splashing should take effort.

If I was in a position to object and knew what I know now, I'd have opposed their printing in Onslaught ... but I also like a lot of where we're at today. I certainly wouldn't ban 'em.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Also note that there are other fetches that see basically no play outside of EDH/Pauper, be it citp MIR fetches or the fetch-basics ones. The ONS/ZEN fetches are so powerful compared to the other ones, yet so easily dismissed by the new players, that it's even funny. Otoh, casual players are pretty often so out when looking at the cards (I remember a friend of mine never understanding why I play painlands, and he never changed his mind about color fixation, even if he lost dozens and dozens of games because of the "Two Mountains and Crash of Rhinos opening hands" that it's once again not even funny), so it maybe doesn't mean anything.

Speaking of fetches - mny set of Jap. Heaths arrived just few days ago! :cool:

[thecrav]

Also note that there are other fetches that see basically no play outside of EDH/Pauper

Tolaria West!