[EDH] Lazav, Shapeshifter Mastermind

[Davran]

Commander:
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind

Creatures:
Baleful Strix
Mindshrieker
Nezumi Graverobber
Phantasmal Image
Shapesharer
Snapcaster Mage
Cryptoplasm
Dimir Doppelganger
Clever Impersonator
Clone
Dreamborn Muse
Evil Twin
Phyrexian Metamorph
Sakashima the Impostor
Solemn Simulacrum
Body Double
Consuming Aberration
Havengul Lich
Phenax, God of Deception
Duplicant
Geth, Lord of the Vault
Wrexial, the Risen Deep
Quicksilver Gargantuan
Sepulchral Primordial

Instant:
Vampiric Tutor
Cyclonic Rift
Split Decision
Capsize
Forbidden Alchemy
Hero's Downfall
Hinder
Spell Crumple
Fact or Fiction
Illusionist's Gambit
Memory Plunder
Misdirection
Spinal Embrace

Sorcery:
Demonic Tutor
Mind Grind
Profane Command
Damnation
Deep Analysis
Plea for Power
Beacon of Unrest
Extract from Darkness
Treasure Cruise
Rise of the Dark Realms

Artifact:
Expedition Map
Nihil Spellbomb
Sol Ring
Altar of Dementia
Armillary Sphere
Dimir Signet
Chromatic Lantern
Darksteel Ingot
Oblivion Stone
Sculpting Steel

Enchantment:
Phyrexian Reclamation
Animate Dead
Copy Enchantment
Necromancy
Phyrexian Arena

Land:
Academy Ruins
Bad River
Cavern of Souls
Command Tower
Creeping Tar Pit
Darkslick Shores
Dimir Aqueduct
Dimir Guildgate
Drowned Catacomb
Evolving Wilds
10 Island
Nephalia Drownyard
Sunken Ruins
9 Swamp
Tainted Isle
Temple of Deceit
Thespian's Stage
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Volrath's Stronghold
Watery Grave

[FTW]

Considering this is Bribery.dec, I am really surprised not to see any Bribery. That would also deal with the Ulamog situation.

Thespian's Stage and Vesuva to take advantage of any abusive lands opponents have?

Unfortunately your timing for a deck like this couldn't be worse :( On the plus side, that means instead of just killing everyone's commander and making them hate you, you actually get to PLAY WITH everyone's commanders at once.

[Davran]

Considering this is Bribery.dec, I am really surprised not to see any Bribery. That would also deal with the Ulamog situation.

Thespian's Stage and Vesuva to take advantage of any abusive lands opponents have?

Unfortunately your timing for a deck like this couldn't be worse :( On the plus side, that means instead of just killing everyone's commander and making them hate you, you actually get to PLAY WITH everyone's commanders at once.

Missing Bribery is simply due to me not having one.

Stage and/or Vesuva should definitely be in here...that's an oversight on my part. I'll probably just run Stage since I have plenty of enters tapped lands already.

As for the timing, it's not the end of the world. In fact, it's almost a good thing because now Lazav is even harder to kill. The deck should still work just fine...legend ruling commanders was just a nice side benefit.

[FTW]

Cool.

If you run Stage, considering running Dark Depths. Stage+Depths (under the new Legend rule) gives you an uncounterable Marit Lage. You copy Depths with Stage, but the copy has no counters. You choose to let the original Depths die to Legend rule and keep the copy. Then the copy triggers for having no counters and you sacrifice it for Marit Lage. Seems pretty awesome!

[Davran]

Cool.

If you run Stage, considering running Dark Depths. Stage+Depths (under the new Legend rule) gives you an uncounterable Marit Lage. You copy Depths with Stage, but the copy has no counters. You choose to let the original Depths die to Legend rule and keep the copy. Then the copy triggers for having no counters and you sacrifice it for Marit Lage. Seems pretty awesome!

Stage + Depths is definitely cute...the question is whether or not it's consistent enough in non-green decks since I only have access to Expedition Map to find whichever piece I'm missing. I mean, I suppose you could use Demonic Tutor or something to find one of the lands, but that might be a little loose. Stage is fine on its own, but Depths doesn't tap for mana and has to hang around for a while to actually be useful without Stage...so getting hit with a Strip Mine/Wasteland/Ghost Quarter/Tectonic Edge or something similar is a very real possibility.

Regardless, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth should be in here too...so for now:

- Island, Swamp

+ Thespian's Stage, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

List updated in the OP.

[TsumiBand]

Missing Bribery is simply due to me not having one.

Stage and/or Vesuva should definitely be in here...that's an oversight on my part. I'll probably just run Stage since I have plenty of enters tapped lands already.

As for the timing, it's not the end of the world. In fact, it's almost a good thing because now Lazav is even harder to kill. The deck should still work just fine...legend ruling commanders was just a nice side benefit.

That's the spirit. I pray you Lazav-clone many a Karrthus. (or really any 3 turn clock or less general)

[Davran]

That's the spirit. I pray you Lazav-clone many a Karrthus. (or really any 3 turn clock or less general)

"Generalness" isn't something that gets copied. I'll still be stuck with 40 point life totals instead of commander damage. That said, hexproof Karrthus would be pretty sweet...

[TsumiBand]

"Generalness" isn't something that gets copied. I'll still be stuck with 40 point life totals instead of commander damage. That said, hexproof Karrthus would be pretty sweet...

Buhhh I even knew that too. The fuck was I thinking.

[kombatkiwi]

From the official commander rules page:
"A Commander which is affected by Cytoshape, or is face down, is still a Commander."
Seems to suggest that if you turn your Lazav into a Dragon Tyrant or something you can in fact 2-turn people with it

[Davran]

From the official commander rules page:
"A Commander which is affected by Cytoshape, or is face down, is still a Commander."
Seems to suggest that if you turn your Lazav into a Dragon Tyrant or something you can in fact 2-turn people with it

Conveniently, Sheldon Menery had an article about this very thing over at SCG yesterday. Here's a link to it. (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26240_M14-Rules-Change-Impact.html)

The relevant portion is in the 6th paragraph down:

"It's also worth noting here that a copy of a commander isn't a commander in any way and doesn't deal commander damage. "Commanderness" is an attribute of the card and can't be copied or changed. If Ixidor, Reality Sculptor turned your Prime Speaker Zegana face Down, it would still have those ten counters on it and still deal Commander damage."

As for the bit about Cytoshape you referenced above, I think what they mean is that if you use Cytoshape to turn my Karrthus into a Llanowar Elf, it'll still do 1 point of commander damage. This interpretation is in line with the third sentence I quoted above.

[FTW]

Yes, you're not copying the commander-ness of Karrthus, but Lazav is also a commander and already has "commander" status.... so you can still "general damage" someone to death, right?

[Davran]

Yes, you're not copying the commander-ness of Karrthus, but Lazav is also a commander and already has "commander" status.... so you can still "general damage" someone to death, right?

I blame lack of caffeine for this obvious oversight. I was thinking more in terms of regular Clone variants and completely forgot that Lazav is also a commander and therefore does "general damage". Good catch!

[TsumiBand]

Ugh, THAT is what I meant. Now I remember what I was thinking. Commander damage someone to shit with YOUR Lazav in form-of-some-12/12, not like a Phyrexian Metamorph copying Progenitus or whatever. Meh. I knew what I meant until I forgot what I was talking about.

[Amon Amarth]

This deck is sweet. Pongify is another good piece of spot removal, if you want that sort of effect. Pilfered Plans looks kinda weak. Is there some an awesome tactical use of the card that earns it's spot?

[Davran]

Pilfered Plans looks kinda weak. Is there some an awesome tactical use of the card that earns it's spot?

Nah, it is kinda weak. I was looking for some cheap card draw, and it's slightly better than Divination or Night's Whisper for the random chance at milling something sweet for Lazav to copy. It should probably just be Deep Analysis or something I guess since the potential flashback is more reliable than a random mill effect. I'll probably make that change...

- Pilfered Plans, + Deep Analysis

[Aggro_zombies]

No love for Dreamborn Muse? Or do you want to generally stay away from the mill plan?

[Davran]

No love for Dreamborn Muse? Or do you want to generally stay away from the mill plan?

Mill is plan B for now since its not exactly the greatest at a 4 player table. Plus, I see a lot of Ulamog in my meta, and Leyline of the Void is a non-bo with Lazav.

[Amon Amarth]

Nah, it is kinda weak. I was looking for some cheap card draw, and it's slightly better than Divination or Night's Whisper for the random chance at milling something sweet for Lazav to copy. It should probably just be Deep Analysis or something I guess since the potential flashback is more reliable than a random mill effect. I'll probably make that change...

- Pilfered Plans, + Deep Analysis

I love me some DA. How good is Scepter with only nine instants to imprint? Seems a little weak.

I really like sweepers. You're missing Oblivion Stone which is a great way to deal with all sorts of bad board states and artifacts, enchantments, and PW although the latter won't give you much trouble since you're creature heavy. Recurrable with Academy Ruins which really needs to have a home here since it would only be your fourth colorless land and you could get quite a bit of value from recurring O-Stone.

[Davran]

I love me some DA. How good is Scepter with only nine instants to imprint? Seems a little weak.

I really like sweepers. You're missing Oblivion Stone which is a great way to deal with all sorts of bad board states and artifacts, enchantments, and PW although the latter won't give you much trouble since you're creature heavy. Recurrable with Academy Ruins which really needs to have a home here since it would only be your fourth colorless land and you could get quite a bit of value from recurring O-Stone.

I'm honestly not sure how Scepter is...I have yet to draw it in a game. It may turn out to be cute and/or a removal magnet, but I'd like to at least give it a shot.

I do need an O-Stone in here for sure. I was just thinking the same thing the other day as I was losing to someone's Wild Pair. I just need to pick one up. I've been thinking about Nev's Disk in the meantime...just need to make some room...

[Davran]

It turns out that the Isochron Scepter package is just taking up a bunch of space that could be used for other stuff. I've never really wanted to tutor for Scepter, and by having it in the deck I was playing a bunch of "bad" 2 mana instants just to make it worthwhile. Also, the deck has a real problem with artifacts and enchantments...especially if they somehow hose the Lazav plan. That said, I made some changes:

Out:
Isochron Scepter
Squelch
Shadow of Doubt
Shred Memory
Swamp

In:

Dominating Licid - I was thinking of including a Mind Control effect, and this one is certainly the most unique of the bunch. Also, its quirky rules text and ability to "dodge" removal is a huge plus, and it's infinitely more reusable than a similar enchantment. Did I mention that it's a creature and the deck is full of clones?

Havengul Lich - I'm not sure how I overlooked this guy when I built the deck. I debated also running Leyline of Anticipation/Vedalken Orrery to turn his ability on at instant speed but ultimately decided against it. That might change in the future though...

Nevinyrral's Disk - This should really be Oblivion Stone, but sadly I don't have one. It will still get the job done in a pinch...I'll just have to figure out some other way to deal with planeswalkers.

Recoil - The choice between this and Capsize was difficult. I ultimately chose this one because I find that I rarely leave mana open during other people's turns for buyback, and it has the potential to randomly be a Vindicate if one of my opponents is playing hellbent.

Academy Ruins - Disk came in and so did this. There's a bunch of other useful targets too...but Disk is the primary use.

List is updated in the OP.

[TsumiBand]

It turns out that the Isochron Scepter package is just taking up a bunch of space that could be used for other stuff. I've never really wanted to tutor for Scepter, and by having it in the deck I was playing a bunch of "bad" 2 mana instants just to make it worthwhile. Also, the deck has a real problem with artifacts and enchantments...especially if they somehow hose the Lazav plan. That said, I made some changes:

Out:
Isochron Scepter
Squelch
Shadow of Doubt
Shred Memory
Swamp

In:

Dominating Licid - I was thinking of including a Mind Control effect, and this one is certainly the most unique of the bunch. Also, its quirky rules text and ability to "dodge" removal is a huge plus, and it's infinitely more reusable than a similar enchantment. Did I mention that it's a creature and the deck is full of clones?

Havengul Lich - I'm not sure how I overlooked this guy when I built the deck. I debated also running Leyline of Anticipation/Vedalken Orrery to turn his ability on at instant speed but ultimately decided against it. That might change in the future though...

Nevinyrral's Disk - This should really be Oblivion Stone, but sadly I don't have one. It will still get the job done in a pinch...I'll just have to figure out some other way to deal with planeswalkers.

Recoil - The choice between this and Capsize was difficult. I ultimately chose this one because I find that I rarely leave mana open during other people's turns for buyback, and it has the potential to randomly be a Vindicate if one of my opponents is playing hellbent.

Academy Ruins - Disk came in and so did this. There's a bunch of other useful targets too...but Disk is the primary use.

List is updated in the OP.

HOW IS HAVENGUL LICH NOT IN MY SEDRIS DECK OMG. Nice pull there.

Also if you are going to play Rite of Replication, you might think about Precursor Golem for the hurp-durpingest two-card billion-dudes combo of all time. I don't even know how many guys it makes if you can cast it twice; it's astronomically big and the math reads like a flipping collegiate-level proof. (to me. i'm not a math guy)

[Davran]

HOW IS HAVENGUL LICH NOT IN MY SEDRIS DECK OMG. Nice pull there.

Also if you are going to play Rite of Replication, you might think about Precursor Golem for the hurp-durpingest two-card billion-dudes combo of all time. I don't even know how many guys it makes if you can cast it twice; it's astronomically big and the math reads like a flipping collegiate-level proof. (to me. i'm not a math guy)

I know, right? The guy seems pretty bonkers if you're doing anything with the graveyard and it just gets better as the game goes long.

Precursor Golem is another one I always forget exists. Makes for a pretty good clone target, and the interaction with Rite of Replication is pretty bonkers. I'll keep it on deck for the next time something is under preforming.

While we're on the subject of Rite of Replication...that card is stupidly good. I won a game last night by making 5 copies of a 30/30 Consuming Aberration and casting a Cyclonic Rift. Easily the most fun play I've made in a while.

[Davran]

Made a couple more changes after playing some games:

- Dire Undercurrents, Oona, Queen of the Fae

+ Black Sun's Zenith, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre

After getting repeatedly stomped by swarms of creatures despite casting 4 of my mass removal spells, I decided the deck needed another wrath effect. I debated including Life's Finale over Black Sun's Zenith because Life's Finale is essentially a wrath stapled to a Bribery with Lazav on the table. The only problem with that is that Lazav would die along with everything else unless I also run something like Darksteel Plate, and I don't think that's worth it. I'd really like Decree of Pain or even All is Dust for this slot, but I don't own a copy of either of those...so the Zenith will have to do for now. Zenith does have one thing going for it - it's tutorable off of Muddle the Mixture.

Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre should probably have been in here all along. It gives me an expensive way to deal with a problematic artifact or enchantment, and it also prevents me from getting milled out to copies of my own Consuming Aberration. It's also a relatively decent alternative win condition...whatever that's worth.

As for the cuts, Dire Undercurrents was easy because it seems a little win-more. I don't have very many ways to abuse it (e.g. no Deadeye Navigator in the deck), and the advantage it can provide isn't all that spectacular. Cutting Oona, Queen of the Fae was a little tougher, but ultimately she left because her ability exiles the cards you mill, which is a big non-bo with Lazav.

Updated list in the OP.

[Davran]

I'm necroing the hell out of this thread, but since it's my deck I figured I'd just update this thread instead of making a new one.

I've recently overhauled this list and have been having a ton of fun playing it. The general idea is to clone my opponent's stuff for fun and profit. I've also got a whole bunch of tricks and such to mess around with, and a minor milling subtheme to help fuel Lazav. If you're in the market for something a little more casual that both scales with the overall power level of the table and also rarely plays the same game twice I definitely encourage you to give this list a shot.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Also if you are going to play Rite of Replication, you might think about Precursor Golem for the hurp-durpingest two-card billion-dudes combo of all time. I don't even know how many guys it makes if you can cast it twice; it's astronomically big and the math reads like a flipping collegiate-level proof. (to me. i'm not a math guy)



If you only have one precursor golem and the two token golems, a single kicked Rite (targeting a token golem) will leave you with 27 golems, 6 of which are Precursors.

If you do it AGAIN, you get 4 Million. And that's that.

Source (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings/magic-rulings-archives/305159-precursor-golem-rite-of-replication)

[Davran]

Source (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings/magic-rulings-archives/305159-precursor-golem-rite-of-replication)

Good to know, but I still don't really think this deck actually wants to make a whole pile of golems.

A couple of quick changes to the list:

- Jace's Archivist, + Forbidden Alchemy

I've been wanting to give Forbidden Alchemy a shot as I'm finding that the deck could really use some more instant speed draw power. I considered Dig Through Time for this slot, and may ultimately replace Treasure Cruise with it...but I think Alchemy is a nice want to both "power up" delve and also possibly turn on my various reanimation effects. As for the Archivist, I think it's better suited to something like Nekusar where having your opponents drawing cards matters. Here, it just refuels the player with a smaller hand while rarely giving Lazav something new to copy.

- Aetherspouts, + Snapcaster Mage

Aetherspouts has never been the blowout I wanted it to be. It either shows up too late, or forces me to sit around with 5 mana open in the hope that someone will attack me.

List updated in the OP.

[TsumiBand]

It's way more than 4 million.

Like, waaaaaaaaay more.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1L_FIQrjBdh5J66KKAT2JJ2gTx1KfbXJUfXrdydjzhrY/edit

Anyway if the deck doesn't care about the combo then it is a no-brainer -- don't put it in :) it's just one of those funny things you can do which somewhat fits the cloning theme (copying is cloning, I... I guess...) and as long as you're playing one half of the combo, the other half sort of begs acknowledgement. Unless it doesn't. :)

[Davran]

It's way more than 4 million.

Like, waaaaaaaaay more.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1L_FIQrjBdh5J66KKAT2JJ2gTx1KfbXJUfXrdydjzhrY/edit

Anyway if the deck doesn't care about the combo then it is a no-brainer -- don't put it in :) it's just one of those funny things you can do which somewhat fits the cloning theme (copying is cloning, I... I guess...) and as long as you're playing one half of the combo, the other half sort of begs acknowledgement. Unless it doesn't. :)

Now let's do the math for UG decks with Doubling Season/Parallel Lives...