[Deck] NO Thieves

[Norm]

NO Thieves is a deck I've been working on that aims to jam four mana spells as quickly as possible while retaining a solid "fair" game plan. Introducing, your haymakers:

http://i40.tinypic.com/e9dnjb.jpghttp://i39.tinypic.com/xgjlf.jpghttp://i44.tinypic.com/2btils.jpg

Notion Thief is considered a haymaker because of it's natural interaction with the vast supply of card draw effects in legacy main decks. For those of you unaware, when an opponent resolves Brainstorm with Notion Thief(note, flash) in play, you'll draw 3 cards and they'll put two from their hand on top of their library. The result is massive card advantage for you and a miserable turn for them. Currently, I've decided not to include thief-specific cards as I believe they already exist in the metagame, and we should beat decks that don't include them anyway. The list:

NO Thieves V1.0
Creatures:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Notion Thief
1 Progenitus
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
Spells
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Natural Order
Planeswalkers
2 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
Lands
3 Ancient Tomb
2 Bayou
1 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Dryad Arbor

Maybeboard/Main deck considerations
Daze
Force of Will
Liliana of the veil
Far // Away
Engineered Plague
Empyrial Archangel
Green Sun's Zenith
Inquisition of Kozilek
Thoughtseize
Life From The Loam
Surgical Extraction
Pithing Needle
Darkblast
Ghastly Demise
Veteran Explorer
Phyrexian Tower
More soon...

Probe + Therapy have been selected as disruption to capitalize on the large number of mana accelerating creatures which become much less useful after sticking a large threat or amassing too many in play prior to resolving said threat. Probe gives incredible information which allows you to line up your Thief blowouts much better, and tells you whether or not you need to play around anything. Each of these cards are great an their own.

Progenitus has become much better in light of recent legendary changes. Players are relying on Karakas and other targeted removal effects like Oblivion Ring to deal with Emrakul, and losing the ability to copy-kill your hydra just makes him even more attractive.

Tarmogoyf along with other respectable creatures such as Vendilion Clique and your mana dorks allow you to kill your opponent with beats at a reasonable speed. These also buy you time as blockers for you to resolve a Natural Order and take the game away.

Because we're running Ancient Tomb, it's possible to resolve Natural Order, Jace, The Mind Sculptor and Notion Thief on the second turn of the game. This is incredibly important as most players tend to play conservatively on turns 3+. The decks with permission want to do things on their first two turns, and will walk right into the trap because they don't expect Ancient Tomb at all.

Note: Brainstorm is commonly (not necessarily correctly) played on main phase turn 2, this is even more true for players that know you're running Notion Thief because that card is such a beating when played in response to their brainstorm. By having the option of passing on your turn two with four mana open, opponents are put into very frustrating situations after keeping hands that relied on a second turn brainstorm + fetch to maintain their curve.

It's also worth noting that discard effects can force your opponent into casting Brainstorm which would allow you to respond with Thief.

Abrupt Decay is the removal of choice because we're already in black and green. It's possible that others should be considered but decay is very strong.

Explosive draws
Turn 1: Land, Mana Dork
Turn 2: Land, pass, EOT Vendilion Clique to clear permission
Turn 3: Natural Order

Turn 1: Land, Mana Dork
Turn 2: Ancient Tomb + NO/Jace

Turn 1: Land, Mana Dork (remember, we do have 8 of them)
Turn 2: Ancient Tomb, Pass, respond to cantrip with Notion Thief

Notion thief beats more than Brainstorm
Thief is fantastic against the following strategies:
Glimpse of nature Yep, this strategy is completely hosed with thief in play. Normally this wouldn't be relevant as thief is 4 mana, but in this deck it's very likely to arrive early enough to stop the party.

Tendrils of agony and Brain freeze Storm decks often rely on Duress as their maindeck targeted discard. That won't stop you from landing an early thief to shut down all of their cantrips which are often extremely important in assembling their combo. High Tide typically runs no less than 12 cantrips, and often needs to resolve these cantrips after sticking a Time Spiral. Thief rains on that parade too. Don't forget about your Gitaxian Probe Cabal Therapy plan to really stunt their development as well. These decks need cards, let's take them away.

This is very much a beta list. I'm open to any suggestions, but please try to keep comments constructive.

[Poron]

some considerations:

with Hierarch + Shaman
you can access white. Play Swords to Plowshares. (at least, some in SB)

all that black and no Liliana / Duress / IoK?

eventually: in a deck like this, I would surely find room for 4 Delver of Secrets and 2-3 Jitte.
That would definitly suit my playstyle (evasion + jitte is just epic. In a deck with 4 Noble Hierach..)

or if you don't like Delver, just consider Green Sun's Zenith.
it opens to singletons
Qasali Pridemage
Gaddock Teeg
Sylvan Safekeeper
Knight of the Reliquary --> this also gives you the chance for Dark Depths + Thaspian's Stage

[Norm]

some considerations:

with Hierarch + Shaman
you can access white. Play Swords to Plowshares. (at least, some in SB)

all that black and no Liliana / Duress / IoK?

eventually: in a deck like this, I would surely find room for 4 Delver of Secrets and 2-3 Jitte.
That would definitly suit my playstyle (evasion + jitte is just epic. In a deck with 4 Noble Hierach..)

or if you don't like Delver, just consider Green Sun's Zenith.
it opens to singletons
Qasali Pridemage
Gaddock Teeg
Sylvan Safekeeper
Knight of the Reliquary --> this also gives you the chance for Dark Depths + Thaspian's Stage

Hi Poron,

Delver isn't something I'd really consider. The deck is currently running 20 non-spell/non-land cards which is about 8 too many to make delver fantastic. And we're not playing Ponder, either. Green Sun's Zenith is less than great because we're already running 8 turn one accelerators. That said, there's certainly value in being able to tutor for a Deathrite shaman.

As for discard, we're already playing Cabal Therapy and targeted discard could definitely be in the board. Liliana is worth considering.

As for the off-color cards like sword to plowshares, I love cheap removal as much as the next guy but I don't like not being able to cast spells at all if my dork doesn't stick or stay in play. Remember, we're losing dorks to natural order and I think abrupt decay handles creatures pretty well on it's own. Even if we're not running stage/depths, it would be nice to have an answer to the combo. Perhaps far // away is worth considering.

[Water_Wizard]

Have you considered Veteran Explorer as a ramp condition? You are already running Cabal Therapy. Add a Phyrexian Tower and some more basics.

[Norm]

Have you considered Veteran Explorer as a ramp condition? You are already running Cabal Therapy. Add a Phyrexian Tower and some more basics.

Thanks. I had not considered that, I'll add it to the list. I'm not sure we're able to capitalize on the ramp despite our opponent's ramp in the same way those Nic Fit/Explorer Rock decks can, though.

[Poron]

more ramp than 8 dorks?

more than ramp I would capitalize with Equipments and hard counters. (with 8 dorks even Counterspell is very fine)

[Water_Wizard]

Probably don't need 12 dorks - maybe 4 DRS and 4 VE. VE's benefit to opponents very much depends on the meta. Recently, more basics are seeing play, so it might not be as good of a call. Against decks that run a lot of basics, VE usually is removed games 2-3, as those decks tend to be slower and you can take more time to develop. Against decks like RUG, Shardless BUG, etc. (that run no basics), VE is a house, especially against decks that run no exile effects (i.e. STP).

I wonder if Notion Thief, NO, and Jace are too much. Maybe focus on NT/Jace or NO/Jace. That would free up some slots for discard and counterspells, like FOW. Jace B is also very good with NT. Jace B and V. Clique are Notion Thief's friends. If you wanted to go pretty heavy on the VE plan, you could even run some Back to Basics main. That would mess up a lot of decks.

[Norm]

Probably don't need 12 dorks - maybe 4 DRS and 4 VE. VE's benefit to opponents very much depends on the meta. Recently, more basics are seeing play, so it might not be as good of a call. Against decks that run a lot of basics, VE usually is removed games 2-3, as those decks tend to be slower and you can take more time to develop. Against decks like RUG, Shardless BUG, etc. (that run no basics), VE is a house, especially against decks that run no exile effects (i.e. STP).

I wonder if Notion Thief, NO, and Jace are too much. Maybe focus on NT/Jace or NO/Jace. That would free up some slots for discard and counterspells, like FOW. Jace B is also very good with NT. Jace B and V. Clique are Notion Thief's friends. If you wanted to go pretty heavy on the VE plan, you could even run some Back to Basics main. That would mess up a lot of decks.

Thanks for the suggestions. If I had to cut either NO or Jace, it would certainly be Jace. Jace Beleren is worth considering, but I like him a whole lot less now that he doesn't stop opposing JTMS. back to basics sounds fantastic, hosers always have a special place in my heart. This would weaken our brainstorms but that could be made up with shuffles through veteran explorer I suppose. I'll get testing on Cockatrice and come back with some updates, I like the way you're heading, though.

[Water_Wizard]

Thanks for the suggestions. If I had to cut either NO or Jace, it would certainly be Jace. Jace Beleren is worth considering, but I like him a whole lot less now that he doesn't stop opposing JTMS. back to basics sounds fantastic, hosers always have a special place in my heart. This would weaken our brainstorms but that could be made up with shuffles through veteran explorer I suppose. I'll get testing on Cockatrice and come back with some updates, I like the way you're heading, though.

You can always sac/shuffle with fetches - they just don't untap, which isn't that big of a deal, because you only need to tap them once and then you fetch a basic.

I'm excited to hear about the results of your testing.

Good luck!

[Norm]

You can always sac/shuffle with fetches - they just don't untap, which isn't that big of a deal, because you only need to tap them once and then you fetch a basic.

I'm excited to hear about the results of your testing.

Good luck!

Yes that interaction is understood, I'm primarily concerned with reducing the overall number of them to accommodate a larger quantity of basic lands. I'll get through sample hands tonight and playtest tomorrow, then post back. If anyone is running Cockatrice and wants to playtest just let me know via PM and we'll set up a time.

[zulander]

-1 dork, +1 GSZ

It can always fetch a dork, or if need be you can go aggro by boarding out NO Package and using GSZ as Goyf #5.

[zulander]

Thanks for the suggestions. If I had to cut either NO or Jace, it would certainly be Jace. Jace Beleren is worth considering, but I like him a whole lot less now that he doesn't stop opposing JTMS.

Then again, chaining Jace Beleren with a Notion Thief out is pretty baller, why yes for 3 mana I will draw 4 cards :)

[Norm]

-1 dork, +1 GSZ

It can always fetch a dork, or if need be you can go aggro by boarding out NO Package and using GSZ as Goyf #5.

This is a very reasonable adjustment, I hadn't considered that. Thanks!

[Water_Wizard]

Yes that interaction is understood, I'm primarily concerned with reducing the overall number of them to accommodate a larger quantity of basic lands. I'll get through sample hands tonight and playtest tomorrow, then post back. If anyone is running Cockatrice and wants to playtest just let me know via PM and we'll set up a time.

Back to Basics is probably a sideboard card. Usually mono-blue (MUC) decks run it main. Occasionally, a U/W deck will run one in the board (or splash red for Blood Moon either main or in the board), but they usually have Enlightened Tutors to help them find it.

With Veteran Explorer, a lot of the Nic Fit lists run 6-7 basics. You don't plan to Veteran more than twice per game, so that is usually plenty. You can still run 6-7 fetches, 3-4 duals, and a few Ancient Tombs, plus Phyrexian Tower, if you would like.

Your list kind of reminded me of this list: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9803&iddeck=71586 When I looked this list up, it wasn't exactly as I remembered it, but I still thought that I would share it for any help that it might be.

[Norm]

Thanks Water_Wizard,

That list is very interesting, especially because I've missed out on a lot of legacy that happened during that period while travelling. The Garruk in the board is really awesome. Explorer is particularly exciting here because it allows you to play something like:

Turn 1: Bayou, Explorer
Turn 2: Therapy, flashback, grab required colors to cast your 4 drop along with Ancient Tomb

That kind of disruption while maintaining the curve is really fantastic. But it needs more testing. So far, I've really pressed some huge advantage with Thief and I'd like to keep the focus on landing him very early.

I've been throwing all kinds of changes around when I'm not working and hope to update this thread soon. If anyone could attempt to identify the toughest matchups in theory, that would be appreciated.

[Asthereal]

8x mana dork indeed seems weaker than 4x mana dork + 3-4x Zenith and an Arbor.
Maybe something like this?

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Notion Thief
1 Progenitus /16

4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith.
4 Natural Order /24

3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Polluted Delta /20

EDIT:
Now I forgot to make space for Jace and Abrupt Decays.
Perhaps the Probe package takes up too much space.
Maybe -4 Probe, -4 Therapy, -1 Clique / +4 Decay, +2 Jace, +3 Inquisition of Kozilek?

[Poron]

you forgot Abrupt Decay that makes 50% of the sense of this deck

[Asthereal]

you forgot Abrupt Decay that makes 50% of the sense of this deck
Yep I noticed. Made an edit in the post. :smile:

[Water_Wizard]

Mikokoro, Center of the Sea seems decent. This promotes KotR or Crop Rotation (some way to find it).

VE->CT is good if you aren't worried about STP, Daze, or FOW. If you think or know that your opponent may play any of those cards, go CT Turn 1, followed by VE Turn 2, hold priority, sac to CT, put your lands in play, and name all the goodness that you saw on Turn 1. (if VE is exiled, you don't get any lands).

[MGB]

Is there any way you could go in maybe the Humans direction, with Thalia and Dark Confidant and maybe Vials and Caverns?

[Poron]

you have enough CA with Brainstorm and Jace. Additionally, you can pack Pernicious Deed for more CA.

since we are on colors: what about Intuition package?

Loam, Dark Depths, Thaspian's Stage, Crucible of Worlds, Wasteland.
They're all playable in singleton (not alltogether obviously)

Also, with 8 mana dorks, Armageddon is also a wise possibility.

This deck has actually so many possible spin-offs

[Norm]

you have enough CA with Brainstorm and Jace. Additionally, you can pack Pernicious Deed for more CA.

since we are on colors: what about Intuition package?

Loam, Dark Depths, Thaspian's Stage, Crucible of Worlds, Wasteland.
They're all playable in singleton (not alltogether obviously)

Also, with 8 mana dorks, Armageddon is also a wise possibility.

This deck has actually so many possible spin-offs

More things to test! I've been tied up these last few days with work but I'll get back on it soon and post some results when I can. Armageddon is pretty hilarious but I don't know if I like it enough. It's not really AMAZING on turn two but it's a haymaker for sure. Deed can hurt you more than them but in some matchups it could be worth it.

[Tangente]

What do you think about Lotus Cobra as an alternative mana dork? And I like the idea with Veteran Explorer too.

I'm keeping an eye on more variants of Notion Thief decks and this seems pretty strong. In any case I like the interaction Notion Thief with Vendillion Clique, Jace Beleren and Mikokoro, Center of the Sea.

[metronome2charisma]

Arcane denial should be in this deck in some number. 1u- counter target spell. draw three cards .seems good.

[Water_Wizard]

Arcane Denial says "may" draw up to 2 cards, unfortunately.

[KazinMtg]

I still think 1U counter target spell, draw one card is pretty sweet.

[Poron]

don't play too many bad cards that become good only with Notion Thief online.

it is a weak, expensive, creature. Anything kills it. Mana dorks + Armageddon + NO / Jace are your WC.

Thief is just a cool tool. 1U in this deck, with 8 dorks, is the same as UU. Play Counterspell in the place of Arcane Denial.
StP on Thief EOT gives him 2 new cards

[bruizar]

Too bad this deck needs a lot of coloured mana. Mikokoro, Center of the Sea seems great as a one off.

[Esper3k]

So I was thinking about this deck this afternoon (I'm always looking for a new fun deck to play) and thought - instead of the NO package, could we not play a package of Intuitions for Loam + Dark Depths + Thespian's Stage instead? This gives us a recursive finisher plus makes our mana base more stable as we won't need the GG for Natural Order anymore.

[Poron]

boys, 8 mana dorks. colored mana is definitly the last problem