Wizards cuts loose Legacy and Vintage Championships

[cdr]

https://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/other/05312013

This is what Wizards does when they no longer sees an event as worthwhile but they know they'd get a backlash for eliminating it entirely, modeled after what ended up happening to States. Vintage/legacy "champs" are now just another event run by some TO. Vintage is now entirely officially unsupported, and legacy may not be far behind if they can find an excuse (like attendance) to axe the GPs.

[nedleeds]

No real problem with this, Pastimes was running it anyway. The prize of a painting that I can't tap was shitty as well.

[cdr]

No real problem with this, Pastimes was running it anyway. The prize of a painting that I can't tap was shitty as well.

So I guess no more legacy GPs wouldn't be a big deal, since TOs run those anyway?

[Arsenal]

The less official association Wizards has with Legacy (other than the Banned list), the worse it is for the game as it's a clear indicator that they're investing almost no time, resources, or efforts in making sure Legacy remains a viable format. Obviously, there were indirect signs in recent years (the creation of Modern, the strengthening of the Reserved List, etc), but this is a clear, unambiguous statement from Wizards that they no longer wish to be associated with Legacy.

[PirateKing]

It's my understanding that Eternal is considered alive and thriving over in Europe, despite receiving about the same official tournament support from Wizards. BoM is "just another tournament run by just another TO" after all.

[nedleeds]

Go fuck yourself. It's a more accessible tourney with better prizes, that I get to go to in addition to Gencon. I have nothing to complain about. At the end of the day champs was a Pastimes tourney. It wasn't like WotC flew in artists or Richard Garfield showed up to give the winner a hand job.

[sdematt]

Go fuck yourself. It's a more accessible tourney with better prizes, that I get to go to in addition to Gencon. I have nothing to complain about. At the end of the day champs was a Pastimes tourney. It wasn't like WotC flew in artists or Richard Garfield showed up to give the winner a hand job.

Or they did and you just never knew since you never won. Maybe they're cancelling due to Richard's carpel tunnel acting up this year?

-Matt

[nedleeds]

Or they did and you just never knew since you never won. Maybe they're cancelling due to Richard's carpel tunnel acting up this year?

-Matt

Haaahhaah perhaps there was a secret handy 'behind the candelabra'. Regardless of the lack of fellatic rewards this is a big plus for the Vintage event, in terms of accessibility because it removes the Gencon pre-req. Personally I enjoy Gencon but the overhead of a badge and the insanity associated with acquiring housing for Gencon which sells out in an hour kept many folks away. The philly convention center is easy to get to by rail, air etc..

WotC not being involved with Vintage is moot anyway because defacto they aren't involved anymore anyway.

[Koby]

Joy. Another tournament outside my comfortable travel range. /wrist

Privatizing the Eternal worlds is a positive step for the formats involved. WotC is terrible at getting a pulse on the desires of its players. Vintage has no hope of getting official support anymore, in no small part due to WotC's timidness with regards to the Reserve List. Legacy isn't too far behind in spite of being more accessible. I hope they continue to host Legacy GPs if nothing more than to show diversity. God forbid they only run Standard and Limited Grand Prixes. How quickly would WotC lose its amateur tournament base after that move?

What concerns me is the official WotC stance of "test the waters" then decide if they want to keep the structure (private TO hosting the "Worlds" moniker). This smacks of "we have no clue what we're doing" and will result in wildly variant results from year to year. Odd that WotC still feels ownership of the format but refuses to create any interest. You can't have it both ways Wizards - either you support it officially and reap the rewards, or you let the community manage itself and bless the private actions of Open style tournaments.

[dontbiteitholmes]

For anyone complaining about this, do you even know what the fuck you are complaining about?

1: The prize support for this previously was dogshit. Wizards put up a $1000+ first prize then if you came in second you get like a couple rare booster packs. I came in 17th I think last year and got 3 M13 boosters if I remember correctly. Now the 1st prize is still there but it looks like prize support is going to trickle down further.

2: It was run by Pasttimes, not Wizards.

3: If you factor out the price of GenCon badges and inflated hotels it should be cheaper to come to this no matter where in the US you are.

4: This has nothing to do with WotC "not supporting Eternal." If anything they probably did this as a result of people complaining that having this in the middle of GenCon and basically having no prize support beyond top 8 for a $40 entry fee was a bad fucking deal.

Of course we'll have to wait and see what this ends up meaning as far as the event and how well it's run but I think anyone crying about this that hasn't been to Eternal Champs before has no room to talk. It wasn't exactly the best run event and WotC did us a favor by moving it.

[thecrav]

I'll be very curious to see which vendors show up to this and what kind of stuff they bring.

[lordofthepit]

Maybe I'm not creative enough at reading "between the lines", but the article didn't look nearly as bad as the title of the thread led me to believe. It sounds like they're just moving the event.

What's so special about Gencon? Is it something iconic or officially supported by Wizards? I've only heard of it when SCG offers "a free Gencon badge for answering the following trivia question", or when I hear about people complain about security after a really bad theft at the Legacy/Vintage championship. These events had pretty poor attendance anyway compared to a Legacy Grand Prix or a Bazaar of Moxen, so I see it as moving Eternal side events at a larger tournament into something like a Bazaar of Moxen.

[PirateKing]

Magic debuted at GenCon, but then again, that's what GenCon is for, you go there to play games in development or just being released. Now that Magic is a thing and it's not 1993 anymore, no real reason to keep anything tethered to what is rally a tabletop and board game convention anyway.

[ReAnimator]

Weren't a bunch of people clamouring for a more private event and location cause of the rampant theft? this seems like a good step in a fine direction.

[Dark Ritual]

Weren't a bunch of people clamouring for a more private event and location cause of the rampant theft? this seems like a good step in a fine direction.

This still isn't remotely private, won't deter theft at all (Philadelphia isn't exactly the safest place on earth), and is open to the public. They simply moved it because of some reason that we'll probably never know.

Gencon is small potatoes in the face of the GP two weeks down the road after vintage and legacy champs occur. If anyone actually thought legacy was supporting vintage even before they moved vintage champs, news flash they stopped supporting vintage a long time ago. When was the last vintage GP? I can't even remember. Vintage side events at GPs typically don't fire either.

[rockout]

Go fuck yourself. It's a more accessible tourney with better prizes, that I get to go to in addition to Gencon. I have nothing to complain about. At the end of the day champs was a Pastimes tourney. It wasn't like WotC flew in artists or Richard Garfield showed up to give the winner a hand job.

A handy from Richard Garfield would be the ultimate pinnacle of my magic career. I'd imagine his hands would be slightly rough from playing so many cards that it would be like sandpaper rub down quicky.

[workingdude]

Makes it sound like an SCG Open for Legacy and Vintage on that weekend (ala "10K in prizes!") with a title and a painting. I dont know if thats better or worse, since thats probably actually better than what it has been the last couple years.

[mini1337s]

People play Eternal for the prize support? I thought we were all old and had real jobs...

[PirateKing]

I wouldn't refer to entering into a tournament with the chance to earn back the money required to be eligible to participate "prize support"

[Stoyrm]

I wouldn't refer to entering into a tournament with the chance to earn back the money required to be eligible to participate "prize support"

Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

In all seriousness though: This doesn't really change anything for me. I always did want to go to GenCon for the Vintage/Legacy Champs, and i'll probably find time to do so once. If this makes it cheaper and easier, then i'm all for it: That's my standpoint as a European traveller.

I'm a bit sad that champs aren't connected to WoTC, but we'll just have to see how it develops, hopefully this is a success, and as long as Wizards keep supporting it this way, i'm all for it.

[phonics]

They should just have altered art cards as a prize for t8 and the winner that are playable, not oversized. It would be limited enough that restricted list shouldn't matter, or they could do cool stuff like old border jaces or nic nacs like that.

[John Cox]

They should just have altered art cards as a prize for t8 and the winner that are playable, not oversized. It would be limited enough that restricted list shouldn't matter, or they could do cool stuff like old border jaces or nic nacs like that.

To each their own, I really dislike most alters. I like actually real prize support and the idea that eternal is a real even is a big plus for me. Gencon is a consumer gaming convention, not a magic convention. I would much rather have a dedicated magic event than be packed into show with a hentai bar and a scavenger hunt.

[phonics]

To each their own, I really dislike most alters. I like actually real prize support and the idea that eternal is a real even is a big plus for me. Gencon is a consumer gaming convention, not a magic convention. I would much rather have a dedicated magic event than be packed into show with a hentai bar and a scavenger hunt.

Well I was just saying it as an aside, I dont really care for where the tournament is. Doing alters allows Wizards to provide prize support without ponying up the cash.

[lordofthepit]

To each their own, I really dislike most alters. I like actually real prize support and the idea that eternal is a real even is a big plus for me. Gencon is a consumer gaming convention, not a magic convention. I would much rather have a dedicated magic event than be packed into show with a hentai bar and a scavenger hunt.

Agreed with every single sentence.

[Iamfishman]

https://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/other/05312013
Vintage/legacy "champs" are now just another event run by some TO. Vintage is now entirely officially unsupported.

WHOA WHOA WHOA

The TO who is running the event this year is Nick Coss. Nick has been a STAPLE in the Vintage community for about ever. He cares more about and has more knowledge of the Vintage community than Alan of pasttimes has in his entire freakin body. To say that Vintage is unsupported because of this change could not be the least bit further from the truth. On the contrary, this event will be so much more in line with what Vintage players want, and Nick will do such a bang-up job with it, that Vintage will grow more this year than it ever has after a Gencon held event.

Furthermore, because Nick is able to focus on just these events there will be better security, better coverage, WAY better prize support, etc(I could go on and on)

And let's not forget the most important thing...taking these events out of Gencon makes them more accessible to people since you don't have the steep costs of a downtown hotel, Gencon Admission, etc.

I think this is a positive thing in just about every way imaginable.

[HammafistRoob]

Oh Snap the fishman is alive?

Always listen to the fishman.

[cdr]

I think a lot of people are missing my point - WotC doing this does have symbolic and practical importance.

WotC previously designed and directed champs at GenCon - that they didn't directly staff it themselves is irrelevant, they don't staff anything themselves but PTs and euro GPs.

As far as I can tell, it's now 100% privately run - this is a significant change. It's the difference between a GP and a SCG Open weekend. In fact, it's now pretty much a SCG Open weekend with Vintage instead of Standard.

WotC also directed promotional and coverage resources at it as an official event that won't be there anymore.

Nothing against the TO, but it's no longer "champs" - there's now an unrelated SCG Open/TCG 5K for eternal.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I think a lot of people are missing my point - WotC doing this does have symbolic and practical importance.

WotC previously designed and directed champs at GenCon - that they didn't directly staff it themselves is irrelevant, they don't staff anything themselves but PTs and euro GPs.

As far as I can tell, it's now 100% privately run - this is a significant change. It's the difference between a GP and a SCG Open weekend. In fact, it's now pretty much a SCG Open weekend with Vintage instead of Standard.

WotC also directed promotional and coverage resources at it as an official event that won't be there anymore.

Nothing against the TO, but it's no longer "champs" - there's now an unrelated SCG Open/TCG 5K for eternal.

We're not missing your point, it's just not a very valid point.

[Koby]

I think a lot of people are missing my point - WotC doing this does have symbolic and practical importance.

WotC previously designed and directed champs at GenCon - that they didn't directly staff it themselves is irrelevant, they don't staff anything themselves but PTs and euro GPs.

As far as I can tell, it's now 100% privately run - this is a significant change. It's the difference between a GP and a SCG Open weekend. In fact, it's now pretty much a SCG Open weekend with Vintage instead of Standard.

WotC also directed promotional and coverage resources at it as an official event that won't be there anymore.

Nothing against the TO, but it's no longer "champs" - there's now an unrelated SCG Open/TCG 5K for eternal.

For all the promotional and coverage support, I dont remember any half way decent live stream or good prizes. If they cant substantiate good prizing, the tournament is a joke. Thats my main beef. I could care less if WWE picked up the tournament title as long as they gave players incentive to attend.

[Lemnear]

Nothing against the TO, but it's no longer "champs" - there's now an unrelated SCG Open/TCG 5K for eternal.

It never deserved being called "World Championships" from the start, lacking worldwide qualifications and WotC-payed fly-ins/hotel.

You can't expect people paying 1300$ just to participate unless you are from the Staates close out a large pool of players with that and still think you play against the best players worldwide

[trevaftw]

We're not missing your point, it's just not a very valid point.

This also means that if WotC isn't giving it any support then it doesn't appear on their website and is less likely to talked about on Twitter by them. This means less new players hear about Legacy and Vintage.

[cdr]

For all the promotional and coverage support, I dont remember any half way decent live stream or good prizes. If they cant substantiate good prizing, the tournament is a joke. Thats my main beef. I could care less if WWE picked up the tournament title as long as they gave players incentive to attend.

This new tournament - which has no actual relation to the previous one - may be good, and I hope it is. But I personally liked the champs at GenCon, and it's a little sad to see it go.

[Stoyrm]

To each their own, I really dislike most alters. I like actually real prize support and the idea that eternal is a real even is a big plus for me. Gencon is a consumer gaming convention, not a magic convention. I would much rather have a dedicated magic event than be packed into show with a hentai bar and a scavenger hunt.

I have a feeling it was not an alter he was talking about. More like one of the P9 pieces reprinted, with the new art. Aka Black Lotus on a normal card, normal stock and size, with the art from the MTGO Cube.

[thecrav]

Makes it sound like an SCG Open for Legacy and Vintage on that weekend (ala "10K in prizes!") with a title and a painting. I dont know if thats better or worse, since thats probably actually better than what it has been the last couple years.



…and check this out. On November first, second and third, the Magic Eternal Weekend comes to Philadelphia and this event is going to be huge - we're talking hundreds of players, a legacy championship with over ten thousand of dollars in prizes paid down to sixty-fourth place and a vintage championship with over ten thousand dollars in prizes paid down to sixty-fourth place...

…so make plans to join us when the Magic Eternal Weekend comes to Philly and we'll see ya there!

[Dan Turner]

I would love to see a major Vintage event closer to the middle of the US. IE: St. Louis, Kansas City, Or even Omaha or Dallas. Maybe have the Vintage Championships in different cities world wide over a period of a year, a truly world wide tournament with top finishers invited to be able to claim the real title of World Champ. You would maybe have to restrict anyone who has finished first in another location from going and getting multiple spots in the next round by trying to win first int different locations. I understand some locations may only get the min number of players for Vintage and there may have to be a bit of 10 card or 5 card proxy to get it really packed. I know if there was one close I could get at least 4 if we could do the 10 card proxy, only 2 of us have full decks without proxies in them atm.

I would think it would be epic if we had a States type event for Legacy, maybe regional qualifiers in college towns across each state with invites to the State championship and then on from there top 3 from each state to a USA Championship and then a USA team onto something like BOM for a real World Champ for Legacy

[dontbiteitholmes]

This also means that if WotC isn't giving it any support then it doesn't appear on their website and is less likely to talked about on Twitter by them. This means less new players hear about Legacy and Vintage.

Yes because this event was so well publicized and attracted so many new players. [/extreme sarcasm]

[lordofthepit]

I think a lot of people are missing my point - WotC doing this does have symbolic and practical importance.

WotC previously designed and directed champs at GenCon - that they didn't directly staff it themselves is irrelevant, they don't staff anything themselves but PTs and euro GPs.

As far as I can tell, it's now 100% privately run - this is a significant change. It's the difference between a GP and a SCG Open weekend. In fact, it's now pretty much a SCG Open weekend with Vintage instead of Standard.

WotC also directed promotional and coverage resources at it as an official event that won't be there anymore.

Nothing against the TO, but it's no longer "champs" - there's now an unrelated SCG Open/TCG 5K for eternal.

The largest Legacy championship ever at Gen Con featured approximately 350 players, which is slightly lower than the turnout for the largest SCG Opens. The prize support, which was pretty bad in previous years, was never as good as SCG Opens. The coverage was worse than that provided by SCG.

I'd be much more concerned about the viability of the format if SCG cut its support for Legacy; this doesn't even register on my radar. Wizards has never really supported the format that much, and it has still prospered in spite of this, due to organic support by the player base and third-party support from individual stores and larger circuits like SCG.

[nedleeds]

I'm pretty sure the organizer if given sufficient time would be more than happy to support regional qualifier tourneys since all it does is drive interest to his main event. Not sure if there is enough lead time for this but I'd be happy to push qualifiers to my FLGSOwners here in Atlanta. If they think they can get people in their stores (except one who seems vehemently opposed to all eternal magic) they'll be all for it.

- Northeast (anywhere really)

- Southeast (Atlanta, Charlotte ?)

- Midwest (St. Louis, Dallas)

- Mountain (Denver)

- Northwest (Portland, Seattle)

- Southwest (Los Angeles, Phoenix)

[mini1337s]

I'm pretty sure the organizer if given sufficient time would be more than happy to support regional qualifier tourneys since all it does is drive interest to his main event. Not sure if there is enough lead time for this but I'd be happy to push qualifiers to my FLGSOwners here in Atlanta. If they think they can get people in their stores (except one who seems vehemently opposed to all eternal magic) they'll be all for it.

- Northeast (anywhere really)

- Southeast (Atlanta, Charlotte ?)

- Midwest (St. Louis, Dallas)

- Mountain (Denver)

- Northwest (Portland, Seattle)

- Southwest (Los Angeles, Phoenix)
I know there would be enough Canadian interest to develop something in Toronto/Montreal

[sdematt]

Isn't the Eternal Weekend the same weekend as Bazaar of Moxen: Paris? /firstworldMagicproblems /can't attend both

-Matt

[Finn]

The strategy wotc has been following with showing entirely clear indications (which they can not hide) that they will soon not be bothered with Legacy (due to the contradiction associated with the Reserved List or for any reason you like) while remaining officially silent on the topic is precisely the same strategy leaders of all types have always taken when making moves that are certain to piss off a sizable portion of their constituency. There is nothing ambiguous about what wotc is doing here. Whether you choose to stick your head in the sand about it or not is up to each of you. The writing on the wall could not be more clear on this though. I'm not sure a thread like this pisses me off or not. At least it is being talked about, but any clear look at what the company has been doing since Modern was first introduced does not even require reading between the lines.

Have any of you seen what is in Modern Masters? It is a huge print run (Mark Rosewater said it was higher than most of us expect in his blog) of as many of the super expensive cards for Modern as they could pack into it. It should radically drop the prices of Modern staples, and if it does not do the trick, there is nothing stopping them from printing more. At the same time, the most expensive Legacy staples continue to rise in price significantly. Once the dust settles from this you can expect the rest of the story to follow in a predictable manner. It is already set in motion. There is no need to speculate any more about what this event or that phrase means.

[Megadeus]

I'm pretty sure the organizer if given sufficient time would be more than happy to support regional qualifier tourneys since all it does is drive interest to his main event. Not sure if there is enough lead time for this but I'd be happy to push qualifiers to my FLGSOwners here in Atlanta. If they think they can get people in their stores (except one who seems vehemently opposed to all eternal magic) they'll be all for it.

- Northeast (anywhere really)

- Southeast (Atlanta, Charlotte ?)

- Midwest (St. Louis, Dallas)

- Mountain (Denver)

- Northwest (Portland, Seattle)

- Southwest (Los Angeles, Phoenix)b
Im biased and the southeast should be in ATL ;)

But it seems like a good idea. So basically they are similar to PTQs in that you are using them to get in? Or is it like a GPT where it is only used as byes?

[phazonmutant]

It seems like this might be the time of trials for Legacy. Despite increasing excitement for Modern and related product releases, BoM just announced a new tournament series, the Southeast is hoping to start up a legacy league, and I'm sure there's more Legacy interest in other parts of the world.

I think this year is the crucial year for us as a community to push for a stronger legacy scene. Maybe that involves regional trials for a Legacy champs tournament (very sweet idea, nedleeds!), maybe it just involves local legacy leagues and tournaments. But I think all of us should try to work with stores to create and promote legacy events.

Wizards clearly isn't going to step in to help eternal formats, so we're just going to have to do it on our own. Fortunately, we have the advantage of not being completely awash with miserable misers like the other formats.

[Megadeus]

It seems like this might be the time of trials for Legacy. Despite increasing excitement for Modern and related product releases, BoM just announced a new tournament series, the Southeast is hoping to start up a legacy league, and I'm sure there's more Legacy interest in other parts of the world.

I think this year is the crucial year for us as a community to push for a stronger legacy scene. Maybe that involves regional trials for a Legacy champs tournament (very sweet idea, nedleeds!), maybe it just involves local legacy leagues and tournaments. But I think all of us should try to work with stores to create and promote legacy events.

Wizards clearly isn't going to step in to help eternal formats, so we're just going to have to do it on our own. Fortunately, we have the advantage of not being completely awash with miserable misers like the other formats.

Agreed. I think that with strong community we can keep legacy booming and everyone enjoying the format. What legacy league are you talking about though here in the southeast?

[Richard Cheese]

Seems like a good thing to me. I'd rather go to Philly than Indianapolis any day. Better food, better transportation, more to do. Also it won't be in the middle of another mostly unrelated event, so it's going to be less crowded, less hectic, and hopefully more secure as a result. I've never gone to champs because I have no interest in GenCon or Indy, I'm definitely thinking of going to this though.