[Article]Eternal Europe: Card Ideas for Legacy

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

Combining everyone's favorite occupation - random card creation - with an overview of where Legacy could need some help. Let me know what you think!

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26300_Cards-Ideas-For-Legacy.html

[bruizar]

Nice article. I have some problems with the cards you proposed though:

-Protector of the Meek would ruin Karn Liberated, I do not agree with that. Karn is too cool to block from competitive play!
-No More Heroes Any More nice combo with Leyline of Singularity. Karakas x4 would fit right in.
-Seal Fate cannot be an instant, it will just supplant Preordain in BLUE combo decks.
-Undermine Loyalty is way too efficient. Red Elemental Blast is different because it only fights blue decks, not also Liliana, Karn, and whatever awesome planeswalkers we still have to get in future sets.

In general, your design strategy is one that combats current meta issues. I don't like this. Just look at that 2/1 green flash reach spider with protection from blue that cannot be countered. It's a terribly unelegant design to solve Delver of Secrets. You used the same principle with cards such as Stop Showing Off, No More Heroes Any More, Protector of the Meek. All in all, nice thought exercise and always fun to think up some cards. Also, Derrick Paulson made a really good comment on your article site.

[Monkey_Island]

WOTC should seriously hire you! Reading your articles makes obvious that you seek a more balanced and skill intensive game, I can only agree with you!
Also at the end of your article you mentioned other ideas you came up with, is there a chance that you designed a card for MUD/Stompy decks to have more consistency? I am just curious...

[PirateKing]

Cards like Seal Fate should be sorcery speed with speed upgrade clauses like "This card has flash if an opponent cast an instant this turn". Maintains the foil to Brainstorm but removes and overly cheap Clique effects that would become constant.

I agree with others that Planeswalkers, while troublesome, shouldn't receive narrow hate like other permanents. Planeswalkers are not at a point where they need their own Murder. A quick Type search in Gatherer says there are 6,940 creatures and 37 Planeswalkers. I'd be much more willing to see printed "Destroy target nonland noncreature permanent". If Planeswalkers need to be named specifically, they should keep the course they've set with some of the burn spells. "CARDNAME deals 2 damage to target player and each Planeswalker they control" for :1::r: or something similar.

Other then that, I enjoy the possibilities your cards create and would enjoy a reality where they are usable.

[Barook]

My 2 cents:

- Protector of the Meek
It's problematic because it makes Timmies sad. If anything, it should exile only when it's cheated into play:

Whenever a nonland, nontoken permanent would enter the battlefield, if it wasn't played from hand, exile it instead.
Directly combats S&T, reanimation, GSZ and Vial, among other things.

One could also make a red hatebear out of it instead:

Red Thalia :1::r:
Legendary Creature - Human Soldier
First Strike
Whenever a nonland, nontoken permanent enters the battlefield, if it wasn't played from hand, Red Thalia deals damage equal to that card’s converted mana cost to its controller.
2/1

- No More Heroes Any More
Interesting, but very narrow.

- Forkcaster Mage is way too efficient for its mana cost since its Fork + and ultra-efficient body. What might be a cool spin on said ability might be stealing spells, though, since stealing shit is already very red and in this case also very similiar to copying spells.

Imagine something like this:

Spell Thief :r::r:
Creature - Human Rogue
Flash
When Spell Thief comes into play, you may gain control of target instant or sorcery spell with converted mana cost 2 or less. You may choose new targets for it.
2/1
Steals Brainstorm, StP, AD and other goodies. Probably too strong at 2 mana since you could easily 2-for-0 your opponent.

[Dia_Bot]

Spell Thief :r::r:
Creature - Human Rogue
Flash
When Spell Thief comes into play, you may gain control of target instant or sorcery spell with converted mana cost 2 or less. You may choose new targets for it.
2/1

This is actually a very interesting card. I'm not even sure if it would be to powerfull, I mean we did get cards like snapcaster and DRS lately and their mana cost was way more efficient. I like it.

[Tylert]

I like the spell thief...
Is it a red ability thought?
Also, should we add something like an additional cost equal to the spell cmc?

[TsumiBand]

Isn't that RR spell thief guy just a better Counterspell though?

It doesn't even actually counter the spell, it steals ownership and reassigns the targets. Mana Drain is bad because it is a better Counterspell; it gives you a resource as payment for countering something. This essentially acts as Spelljack + a dude. I don't care what color that's in; it costs 2? Sign me up. Holy fuck.

EDIT - ohh CMC 2 or less. That's still a ton of relevant spells though. I'm not positive that it could see play even with such a restriction. Not at that cost. Mystic Snake is 4 manas; Draining Whelk is 6. And that's in a color which actually does counter things on the regular.

[Barook]

Is it a red ability thought?
Stealing spells is extremely rare, but blue (see Commandeer) - however, red needs some love anyway. Red already has Threaten and other steal effects (e.g. Confusion in the Ranks). It's also somewhat similiar to Fork and Shunt effects. It would easily fit the color pie.

As for the power level, I guess it would be fairer without Flash and CIP effect, but having it to sacrifice instead, maybe even with a small activation cost like :r:. You could still trade 2-for-1, but at least it wouldn't be a 2-for-0. You would get a 2-power beater with the option to get a better Shunt for low CC spells since it can steal Brainstorms, among other things.


Spell Thief :r::r:
Creature - Human Rogue
:r:, sacrifice Spell Thief: Gain control of target instant or sorcery spell with converted mana cost 2 or less. You may choose new targets for it.
2/1
Seems a lot fairer and more in the line of power level with Qasali Pridemage. I don't know if haste or first strike on it wouldn't push it.

[bruizar]

How about:

"If Spell Thief comes into play, your opponent may search your library and exile all blue cards from your deck. Shuffle your library afterwards."

Too draconian or not?

[nedleeds]

How about:

"If Spell Thief comes into play, your opponent may search your library and rip up all blue cards from your deck. Shuffle your library afterwards."

Too draconian or not?

?

[bruizar]

@Nedleeds:

Sorry, should have been more complete:

Spell Thief RR
"When Spell Thief comes into play, you may gain control of target instant or sorcery spell with converted mana cost 2 or less. You may choose new targets for it. If you do, your opponent may search your library and exile any number of blue cards from your deck. Shuffle your library afterwards."
2/1

Nice touch is that Painter's Servant is very strong against this card. :-)

[dontbiteitholmes]

The white hate bear is too good in that if someone can legit cast a 7+CMC card they shouldn't be punished for it.

I still prefer the idea I've posted on here a couple times.

Anti-Cheatbear
1W - Creature
Whenever a non-land non-token permanent comes into play if it's casting cost was not paid return it to it's owners hand unless it's controller pays X where X is that permanent's casting cost.
2/2

Also would not object to something like

BS Hate
B - Instant
Until end of turn no players may draw cards.

And one more I really wouldn't be mad about

New Discard Option
B - Sorcery
Split Second
Target player reveals their hand, you choose an instant or sorcery card from it. That player discard that card.

[ankharlyn]

I'm not a fan of many of these, save the Forkmaster Mage. Super narrow hate cards for the current meta seem short sighted.

[ahg113]

I'm not a fan of many of these, save the Forkmaster Mage. Super narrow hate cards for the current meta seem short sighted.

Not a blue bashing comment.

I disagree with you though, these aren't problems of the "current meta." They are shortfalls in the color pie that allow an unequal ability to certain colors detriment to the others, and therefore the game. It's a balance of fair vs. unfair, and these narrow answers (cause let's call a spade a spade, they are totally narrow) seek to give a few more limited options at correcting that.

Whether it be cheating things into play (Show/Tinker decks, Reanimator, GSZ, Descendant's Path) or library manipulation (E. Tutor, a few black cards, S. Library or Mirri's Guile, Belcher activation that didn't kill...), generally, if it's not blue (sometimes black), it's crap. That speaks nothing of the cantrip filter bonus blue gets.

Likewise, the powers to be could just swing the banhammer that put us here, or reverse swing it and unban the other checks that kept the "current meta" from evolving.

Cheers,
Descendants' Path is a joke inclusion

[ankharlyn]

Not a blue bashing comment.

I disagree with you though, these aren't problems of the "current meta." They are shortfalls in the color pie that allow an unequal ability to certain colors detriment to the others, and therefore the game. It's a balance of fair vs. unfair, and these narrow answers (cause let's call a spade a spade, they are totally narrow) seek to give a few more limited options at correcting that.

Whether it be cheating things into play (Show/Tinker decks, Reanimator, GSZ, Descendant's Path) or library manipulation (E. Tutor, a few black cards, S. Library or Mirri's Guile, Belcher activation that didn't kill...), generally, if it's not blue (sometimes black), it's crap. That speaks nothing of the cantrip filter bonus blue gets.

Likewise, the powers to be could just swing the banhammer that put us here, or reverse swing it and unban the other checks that kept the "current meta" from evolving.

Cheers,
Descendants' Path is a joke inclusion

I can agree with that to some degree (shortfalls in the color pie), but I don't think most of these cards are good for fixing that. They just seem like someone went to a tournament, had some games they didn't like losing/having close games with and decided to go home and make up a bunch of cards to give themselves easy wins against the field.

[bruizar]

Giving every color a pseudo brainstorm is actually ruining the color pie even further. Green Sun's Zenith was a great example of card selection in another color. Don't try to replicate brainstorm effects, but give each color something unique.

imo Fact or Fiction type cards should go to one of the other colours, maybe white (balance, pick or choose, law).

[dontbiteitholmes]

I can agree with that to some degree (shortfalls in the color pie), but I don't think most of these cards are good for fixing that. They just seem like someone went to a tournament, had some games they didn't like losing/having close games with and decided to go home and make up a bunch of cards to give themselves easy wins against the field.

Yes because hate bears give you easy wins. That's why storm isn't a deck anymore. /sarcasm

[ankharlyn]

Yes because hate bears give you easy wins. That's why storm isn't a deck anymore. /sarcasm

Meh, I'm not saying it would be. Just that the cards all feel like they were designed with that premise in mind. It's boring design.

[Shawon]

A way red could have card advantage that would still have a red feel is to design card advantage in red spells to be based around combat, say a creature that lets you draw cards for every attacking creature, or something that lets you exile instant spells you tutor up and can only cast them during combat.

Also, I think a possible solution to making better red spells could be giving red an ownership of a theme that provides situational (card) advantage without overtly drawing cards. I think a theme that red could have that would make it distinct is to have the theme of having many small advantages at once.

For example, I posted in a few threads on my interpretation of M14's Young Pyromancer:

Red Analog of Goyf/Confidant/SFM :1::r:
Creature - Human Shaman/Wizard
Whenever you cast an instant or sorcery spell, put a 1/1 red Elemental with haste on the battlefield. Exile it at end of turn..
Whenever you cast an instant or sorcery spell, choose target creature an opponent controls. That creature can't block this turn.
2/1

What I really like about this card is that it doesn't give you any actual card advantage, but it gives you two small temporary advantages at once that using the triggers repeatedly will incrementally provide you a strategic advantage that can easily make up for any lack of permanent or virtual card advantage.

Furthermore, what's awesome about the guy I created is how well he works in creature decks despite having an ability based on instants/sorceries. Coupling the red analog's triggers with instants/sorceries that happen to be removal spells, with other creatures on your board ready to attack, can potentially lead to a lot of blowouts on the red zone. Red-based traditional aggro decks would get a significant and needed power boost by this card.

[Humphrey]

:1::r: Blue Hoser Guy

First Strike
As long as ~this is on the battlefield, players cant play blue spells.

"It was time to break the blue dominance"

1/1

[Dia_Bot]

If you really want to break blue's dominance you have to tackle this problem from the roots:

:1::r: Blue Hoser Guy

When ~ enters the battlefield, remove target blue player from the game.

"It was time to break the blue dominance"

1/1
:tongue:

[GoblinSettler]

-Protector of the Meek would ruin Karn Liberated, I do not agree with that. Karn is too cool to block from competitive play!


Bump the line up to eight or more and call it h8rs gonna h8. Problem solved.

[lordofthepit]

-Protector of the Meek would ruin Karn Liberated, I do not agree with that. Karn is too cool to block from competitive play!

This is a card idea thread for Legacy, and Karn sees (almost) no competitive Legacy play. Modern can just add this an a few hundred other cards to their signature ban list.

[bruizar]

MUD, UB walkers/bridgewalker and Nic Fit occasionally use Karn in legacy. If you can cast a 7 CC Planeswalker, you deserve to have fun with it instead of being hated out by SnT hate.