[Deck] Mono Black Tempo

[wooboy11]

Hello there. I'm a recently returned from a long pause Legacy player, who is still a student in a developing country. AKA I play on budget.

With that in mind, I'm trying to set up a Mono Black Tempo deck, inspired by Bill Stark's 2007 GP Mono Black Aggro (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=21660) and Pauper's Mono Black Aggro. It focuses on deposing early threats, disruption and free casting spells to generate enough tempo to win. It's still a young deck, and I would very much enjoy the opinion of anyone interested. Here it goes:


//Creatures
4x Carnophage
4x Vampire Lacerator
4x Order Of The Ebon Hand
4x Dauthi Slayer
4x Phyrexian Revoker

//Spells
4x Dark Ritual
4x Duress
3x Dead Weight
4x Hymn To Tourach
4x Snuff Out
4x Spinning Darkness

//Lands
17x Swamp

//Sideboard (needs heavy development)
4x Vile Rebirth
4x Serum Powder
4x Undying Evil
1x Sadistic Sacrament
2x Winter Orb


For financial reasons, I don't use Wasteland and Umezawa's Jitte, even though they would make great assets to the deck.

Dead Weight is there to shut down DRS and Bobs. I'm really uncertain about Dauthi Slayer being there.

Sadistic Sacrament against Stoneforge Mystic package, or even combo. Serum Powder against decks that you absolutely need an explosive start.



So, how do you feel about the deck? Is it at least competitive? What are some things you would change?

[JanoschEausH]

Have you thought about Nantuko Shade? I think its better than Dauthi Slayer and even better than Order of the Ebon Hand. With Nantuko Shade your Dark Rituals become Giant Growths in the lategame.
You might aswell want to look in the Mono Black Suicide thread here on the source for more inspiration.

I would also replace the Duress's with Inquisitions of Kozilek (or even better Thoughtseizes, but thats not budget).

[wooboy11]

Have you thought about Nantuko Shade? I think its better than Dauthi Slayer and even better than Order of the Ebon Hand. With Nantuko Shade your Dark Rituals become Giant Growths in the lategame.
You might aswell want to look in the Mono Black Suicide thread here on the source for more inspiration.

I would also replace the Duress's with Inquisitions of Kozilek (or even better Thoughtseizes, but thats not budget).

I thought about it, but honestly it gives me shivers just thinking about him being StP'd hahaha. I am planning on including Stromgald Crusader instead of Dauthi Slayer. I might try Nantuko Shade as well, though.

I was thinking on Inquisition of Kozilek, but Duress is more versatile on what I am worried about: non-creature spells. I can remove most relevant creatures with my free spells. However, I do think it is worth trying a 2-2 split between the two at some point.

[SpeedOfDark]

Hi,

Mono black decks are always fun!

You should replace Carnophage by Diregraf Ghoul since it is strictly better. Another card to consider as an attacker is Gravecrawler if you want to play a few more zombies (I think you can get them $4-5 each atm). <edit: removed comment> I suggest you have a few more pieces of removal that can deal with Tarmogoyf because atm you only have Snuff Out that can do this well.

Random cards to consider:
Hypnotic Specter (good turn 1 play with dark ritual)
Nantuko Shade (probably not so good in your deck because you don't have much lands)
Gatekeeper of Malakir
Vampire Nighthawk
Deathrite Shaman (super awesome, but not so budget $12-15)

Some removal to consider:
Paralyze
Dismember
Ghastly Demise


Some good finisher cards:
Stillmoon Cavalier (protection from Swords to Plowshares)
Chilling Shade (need to play with Snow-Covered Swamp for this one)
Lashwrithe (makes all your small guys useful again)

If you decide to add some cards that cost 3+ to your deck, you probably only want to add a few because you don't want to lose any of your initial speed with a cluttered starting hand with high cmc.

[dsck]

Disfigure -> Dead Weight

Dead Weight being enchantment is also a minus, growing your opponents tarmogoyfs...

Tombstalkers and Nantuko Shades are something to consider.

[wooboy11]

Dauthi Horror can't block as well (I mean, he can block creatures with shadow, but... c'mon).

I was actually thinking on dumping Dauthi Slayer for Diregraf Ghoul to make sure I can make some decent starts, losing the Slayer's evasion. But I definitely won't be going for 3+cmc cards.

As for the Disfigure point: I hadn't thought about that, nice!

Tombstalker has anti-synergy with Spinning Darkness, and I'm really liking what Spinning Darkness has been doing for me.

How about Unmask? Is it worth trying (it cost's around 9-10$ where I live)?

[SpeedOfDark]

Dauthi Horror can't block as well (I mean, he can block creatures with shadow, but... c'mon).

Lol, my brain wasn't working properly, you're right :P

[MirrorMask]

Hi there!! I am gonna give you a deck idea that I used to play around 2000 (well not the same , its 2013 now). Hopefully you will find some nice deck choices in there:

Creatures (23)

4xcarnophage
4xgatekeeper of malakir
4xnantuko shade
4xdeathrite shaman
3xPhyrexian negator (or 0x and add 3 phyrexian arena or vampire nighthawk )
3xtombstalker

Spells (20)

4xdark ritual
4xhymn to tourach
4xinquisition of kozilek
4xgo for the throat
1xdismember
1xsnuff out
2xcursed scroll

Lands

1xlake of the dead
16xswamp



Of course you can add some Mishra's factory in there but you will need to take out lake of dead and raise the land count a bit. Other considerations would be unholy strength(beware of getting 2-1 ed with removal) and bad moon(not really needed in my opinion). Finally don't forget dread of night for the sideboard if you face a lot of white-it might help and its cheap.I hope I helped. Welcome back to legacy and may the draws be in your favor-always!

P.s sadistic sacrament is too expensive for what it does. Use surgical extraction or extirpate. Also remove winter orb completely. It used to be awesome some years ago but as legacy developed you can run most decks with only one land or two. Its really useless i think.

[apple713]

i believe the card you are missing is phyrexian obliterator. He's probably blacks best beatdown they have ever gotten. Since you're not playing wastelands / misra's like most mono black decks this should be a no brainer. he's like phyrexian negator but on steroids. Nothing really blocks him successfully. they are losing permanents or 5 dmg. the only card you need to look out for is STP and hopefully you will strip that form his hand early.

T1: inquisition
T2: hymn
T3: gatekeeper
T4: obliterator!

in my version of this deck, i played a 1 of lightning greaves because it gives you that edge late game when yall are in topdeck mode. just 1 greaves gives all your creatues haste :)

[Hardcore]

Negator is a better choice; low casting cost, low price tag.
Obliterator is better at handling Batterskull, but that's all.


unholy strength and strength of lunacy are worth playing to boost your smaller creatures.

[Hardcore]

Lightning Greaves has potential for my deck. It is worse to lose a TS than a second rate card like carnophage.

[GoblinSettler]

Negator is a better choice; low casting cost, low price tag.
Obliterator is better at handling Batterskull, but that's all.


unholy strength and strength of lunacy are worth playing to boost your smaller creatures.


Maybe Bonesplitter or Rouse would be better than Unholy Strength.

[wooboy11]

I think we would be going back to The Gate or Suicide Black with things like Phyrexian Obliterator or Negator (btw, I think Negator is a really weird choice with so many Lightning Bolts around).

I need things that generate tempo, and losing a turn (especially such a crucial turn like the second one) to drop Lightning Greaves is anti-tempo.

I thought about pumps, but are they really worth it? Only viable one I see is Bonesplitter. Thing is: I have a hard time dealing with Batterskull.

[-Spooky-]

Negator is a better choice; low casting cost, low price tag.
Obliterator is better at handling Batterskull, but that's all.


This is simply not true. Negator can hurt you quite a lot if he is damaged even once. A lightning bolt in response to him attackign means you lose 3 permanents. Obliterator on the other hand moves the permanent sacrificing to your opponent. If they block him, or burn him, or he blocks one of their creatures, they lose out on a lot of permanents. Obliterator is (in my opinion) a staple of suicide black.

Ashenmoor Gouger is a favorite of mine who can come out on a turn one dark ritual. But again, this goes into suicide black territory. Really, the list you have shown us is not something I would consider tempo. That is suicide black through and through. The Gate is an example of a mono black tempo deck. The deck is probably outside of your budget range, but that's more or less what a tempo deck would look like.

Desecration Demon is another option to consider as a finisher.

Grasp of Darkness is a decent removal spell that can kill batterskull tokens.

Stromgald Crusader should probably replace the order of ebon hand. protection from swords to plowshares is really good.

Unmask is not worth the money. Duress is a better card that costs less than a dollar.

Blood Scrivener is a great option for creating card advantage. Basically he is a budget version of Bob.

This thread on MTG Salvation will probably be extremely useful for you OP.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=462444

[wooboy11]

Thanks for all the info, Spooky. Really useful.

But, I don't think The Gate is more of a tempo deck than this is. They tap out to drop 1 or 2 spells per turn, and those aren't fast spells. I would consider it a normal midrange deck, with lots of opponent interaction.

What this deck is about, or what I'm trying to make it so, is a deck that taps out for aggression or interaction each turn, and using free spells to keep the tempo. It is necessary to win fast, or else I just run out of gas.

For example, a turn one Dark Ritual, followed by a Duress to check things out and then 2 Carnophage. That puts the opponent in a 5 turn clock. He has to deal with at least one creature fast. The thing is, blockers can be easily dispatched, and more threats will come on the following turns.

With more playtesting, I realized the Dauthi Slayers are close to useless, and I need a one drop in his place. I tried out 2 Desecration Demons, and they work nicely, but I'm not quite sure on what to take out in his place. Grasp of Darkness is definitely going on the SB.

In summary: I like tempo decks, and seeing two great free removal spells (Snuff out and Spinning Darkness) really made me want to make them work on a mono black tempo deck. Not sure how far I am from it, but I can definitely see the deck needs some changes.

[Hardcore]

Basically what you are doing is trying to make Mono black work. This has been the quest for many since they banned Necropotence.

I would say the success of this depends on your Meta. Lots of skilled players with combo decks will make that very hard for you; simple creature based decks with more casual players is better for you.

Btw, I face the former so negators are fine. Combo and control don't run lightning bolts:-D

[Zupponn]

Black has a huge amount of decent 1 drops:

Vampire Lacerator
Carnophage
Pulse Tracker
Sewer Rats
Gravecrawler
Carrion Feeder
Sarcomancy
Rakdos Cackler
Deathrite Shaman
Diregraf Ghoul

Powering out 3 2 power creatures on turn 0 has always appealed to me.

[SpeedOfDark]

In summary: I like tempo decks, and seeing two great free removal spells (Snuff out and Spinning Darkness) really made me want to make them work on a mono black tempo deck. Not sure how far I am from it, but I can definitely see the deck needs some changes.
I think snuff out and spinning darkness are definitely your best spells for this type of deck, but I really think you should consider finding room in your deck for some Dismembers. Given how fast you are, the life loss really won't matter, so it's basically a dead weight/disfigure on steroids. Think of it as a slightly worse snuff out.

[wooboy11]

What if I completely revamped the idea, and turned this deck into a 9-landish mono black deck? That would make me keep it's agressiveness and tempo, but I would net much more virtual card advantage, since I'll be drawing less lands.

Something like this:


//Creatures
4x Carnophage
4x Vampire Lacerator
4x Rakdos Cackler
4x Diregraf Ghoul
4x Phyrexian Revoker
3x Pulse Tracker

//Spells
4x Dark Ritual
4x Duress
3x Dismember
4x Hymn To Tourach
4x Snuff Out
4x Spinning Darkness
2x Rouse

//Lands
12x Swamp

//Sideboard (needs heavy development)
4x Vile Rebirth
4x Serum Powder
4x Undying Evil
2x Dread of Night
1x Surgical Extraction



The lifeloss might be finally excessive, though.

Edit: Only now I noticed Contagion adds permanent counters (unlike Bounty of the Hunt). That might be useful.

[Hardcore]

Well, going that route the deck would use the philosophy of; 1cc spells and 16 lands.

[wooboy11]

Well, going that route the deck would use the philosophy of; 1cc spells and 16 lands.

dropping to 16 lands wouldn't be worth it. Maybe 14? From my experience playing 9land (9 forest 4 land grant), 13 lands would suffice, especially with this many free spells.

Alas, I would get insta-gibbed by the rising meta of Chalice.

[SpeedOfDark]

Edit: Only now I noticed Contagion adds permanent counters (unlike Bounty of the Hunt). That might be useful.
Yeah, it does, but unfortunately they are -2/-1 counters and not -1/-2 counters, so I don't think it is very good.

Another card I find interesting for mono black is vault skirge. I have never tested it and it might be awful... but its intriguing. Obviously in a deck like this you would always play it for 1 mana + 2 life, after which it only deals 1 damage per turn (unlike your other 1 drops), however it is 1 damage with evasion and still a net life swing of 2 per turn after it has attacked twice.

Random side note: I just noticed this card (Crippling Blight) as pseudo removal for 1 mana. Its neat, but dismember and your other kill spells are better imo.


What if I completely revamped the idea, and turned this deck into a 9-landish mono black deck? That would make me keep it's agressiveness and tempo, but I would net much more virtual card advantage, since I'll be drawing less lands.

I think you probably want to run at least 15 lands or so in a deck like this, because you will only have dark ritual in your opening hand less than half of the time and when you don't you probably want 2 lands in your opening hand ideally. As a comparison, the most mana-starved elf decks usually go as low as 13 forests, but they have a deck full of 1 drops, many of which can tap for mana, plus 3-4 gaea's cradle. Don't get me wrong, it will work fine off 12 lands, I just don't think its the optimal amount.

[wooboy11]

Yeah, it does, but unfortunately they are -2/-1 counters and not -1/-2 counters, so I don't think it is very good.

Another card I find interesting for mono black is vault skirge. I have never tested it and it might be awful... but its intriguing. Obviously in a deck like this you would always play it for 1 mana + 2 life, after which it only deals 1 damage per turn (unlike your other 1 drops), however it is 1 damage with evasion and still a net life swing of 2 per turn after it has attacked twice.

Random side note: I just noticed this card (Crippling Blight) as pseudo removal for 1 mana. Its neat, but dismember and your other kill spells are better imo.



I think you probably want to run at least 15 lands or so in a deck like this, because you will only have dark ritual in your opening hand less than half of the time and when you don't you probably want 2 lands in your opening hand ideally. As a comparison, the most mana-starved elf decks usually go as low as 13 forests, but they have a deck full of 1 drops, many of which can tap for mana, plus 3-4 gaea's cradle. Don't get me wrong, it will work fine off 12 lands, I just don't think its the optimal amount.

Well, If you think about it, Contagion kills DRS, Delver, Mother, Elf Combo key pieces, renders Goyfs, Tombstalkers, and Batterskulls almost useless. It is pretty versatile if you think about it. And, in a deck with 16 one-drops, at one point you will draw one of them when you don't need, so it is easy to find cards to pitch it for.

As for the lands, I'll make sure to try from 12 to 15 lands. Really, out of pure theory, I can't point out which is best.

Vault Skirge is an option, but is it better than Pulse Tracker?

By the way, I just wanna thank everyone for their input. This is my first post/thread after a long time following the forums, and it is nice to get attention, even if I don't own 15 dual lands lol.

[HPB_Eggo]

Depending on how quickly you find yourself reducing your opponent to 10 or less life, you might consider running 2-3 Guul Draz Vampire. If you draw one and don't have a use for it you can always pitch it, and it gets more useful when the game goes longer, unlike your other one-drops. Reach and whatnot from having Intimidate could also be important.

EDIT: Also, 1-2 Soul Spike might be in order if you go all-in on the free spells route. Lets you gain life back and gives reach from some one-drops. Also also, Blood Scrivener - already suggested I know - only gets better the faster you empty your hand, so running 1-2 also seems like a solid idea.

[wooboy11]

Depending on how quickly you find yourself reducing your opponent to 10 or less life, you might consider running 2-3 Guul Draz Vampire. If you draw one and don't have a use for it you can always pitch it, and it gets more useful when the game goes longer, unlike your other one-drops. Reach and whatnot from having Intimidate could also be important.

EDIT: Also, 1-2 Soul Spike might be in order if you go all-in on the free spells route. Lets you gain life back and gives reach from some one-drops. Also also, Blood Scrivener - already suggested I know - only gets better the faster you empty your hand, so running 1-2 also seems like a solid idea.

The Guul Draz Vampires should be very decent as 2-of's.

Soul Spike wow, never heard of it before. Very interesting card, I'm putting a 1-of, just to feel it.

Now, the Blood Scriveners, I'm having a hard time finding space for 2 of them. I don't like the idea of taking out Phyrexian Revokers. Any ideas? Can't have many 2cmc cards.

[HPB_Eggo]

My personal thoughts would wind up with a deck something like this...

1 Contagion
1 Rouse
2 Soul Spike
2 Spinning Darkness
4 Dismember
4 Snuff Out

2 Guul Draz Vampire
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Blood Scrivener
4 Pulse Tracker
4 Vampire Lacerator
4 Diregraf Ghoul
4 Carnophage

2 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek

14 Swamp


Major changes from your list include...

1) No Dark Ritual. I personally don't like Ritual as it leads to overextending and is only really good for the first turn Hymn + Dude or Thoughtseize/Duress + Hymn. While that is amazing against some decks, top decking Dark Ritual has cost me more games than I can count when playing mono black anything.

2) Only 2 Revoker. Revoker isn't black, generally isn't great in multiples, and is only absolutely needed against certain decks. Other two should be in the SB.

3) No Cackler. Cackler is the worst 2/2 for 1 this deck can play. Pulse Tracker always gets the damage through while Lacerator, Carnophage, and Diregraf can all block. 16 effective 2/2's for 1 is good enough, IMO.

4) Only 2 Hymns. Again, Hymn is great but doesn't help enough when you need it - towards the middle of the game when you're grabbing stuff off the top of your deck. You should already be doing extremely well early with your solid manabase and constant early pressure, so adding tons of cards that won't help you continue the pressure after you deplete your hand doesn't seem like a winning strategy to me.

5) Inquisition over Duress. Possibly flat-out incorrect, but I can only think of a handful of things over 3 mana would really matter to this deck, and plenty of those will get hit by Revoker anyways.

6) Scrivener. Scrivener will randomly win you games just as easily as Dark Ritual will randomly lose you games. On the other hand, you never ever ever never ever want a hand with more than one Scrivener in it, and probably don't want it in your opening seven at all, hence only running two.

I think this version has a bit more reach with Soul Spike, Scrivener, and Guul Draz, with a tad less potential explosiveness without Dark Ritual. Honestly not sure which is better, but I know I'd rather run this version, if only because I think Dark Ritual is really that bad a card in any deck that isn't looking to combo out.

[Hardcore]

Read one more time on the card what if does: Spinning Darkness
It is slow, requiring three BLACK cards in your graveyard to remove, and it will not touch BLACK creatures like BOB and DRS.
On the plus side it cannot be countered by chalice. Still, there must be better cards.

[puckb]

Yeah ! Swamp is the place to be !

Random suggestion here : Spinning Darkness cost 6, snuff out is 4, soul spike is 7, contagion is 5, then maybe sickening shoal is worth some tests

Other random suggestion, but less interesting : Delraich.

I also think Scrivener is crucial here with that much card disadvantage. I'll test a bit and tell you my thoughts.

[Benie Bederios]

I'm kinda missing Hatred in the deck... You have to play Dark Ritual and probably City of Traitors, but if you can play enough 1-mana dorks the opponent can't probably block them all.

.Bb>

[SpeedOfDark]

I had forgotten about Guul Draz Vampire and Blood Scrivener. These are definitely cards you want a few of.

Something most of you have probably noticed already, but I'd like to point it out anyways:

There is some negative synergy with Spinning Darkness and cards like Soul Spike and Contagion. Spinning Darkness' cost is not that difficult to reach in MB suicide, but if too many other cards exile cards instead of putting them in your graveyard, it could create an awkward tension on Spinning Darkness where it becomes active after it is too late. It might still be ok to play both types of card, but be weary of this in testing and see how often it comes up.

Personally, I prefer spinning darkness over the other two because it is free without card disadvantage.

PS: Random super risky finisher: Kaervek's Spite :P

[wooboy11]

Hatred is way too expensive, and Sickening Shoal is probably over-removal. I don't think Pulse Tracker is better than Rakdos Cackler, since both DRS and Stoneforge can just block him, and those are VERY common creatures in legacy. Besides, you shouldn't need to block, but if you do, you can drop Rakdos Cackler without the unleash.

Blood Scrivener is definitely needed, even if that's quite a bit more money than I would enjoy spending... what the heck, I'm on college vacations.

I'm thinking something like this:


Creature (23)

2x Blood Scrivener
4x Carnophage
4x Diregraf Ghoul
2x Guul Draz Vampire
3x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Rakdos Cackler
4x Vampire Lacerator

Instant (17)

3x Contagion
4x Dark Ritual
4x Snuff Out
1x Soul Spike
4x Spinning Darkness

Sorcery (7)

4x Duress
3x Hymn to Tourach

Land (13)

14x Swamp


Doubts: 3x Contagion? Maybe 4? I think 2 is too little.

And don't worry, with my initial decklist, like 90% of the time I had enough cards to use Spinning Darkness. And we only have 5 true card disadvantage cards in this list (not counting life loss), so I don't think that will make a huge difference.

And, in this deck, I think Dark Ritual is absolutely needed. Usually Dark Ritual spells card disadvantage, cause people drop like a Hyppie or Obliterator, but in this deck, you'll be dropping 3 creatures, or 1 Duress + 2 2/2's first turn. Huge advantage, hard to wipe out.

[Barook]

Budget aside, how about running Chrome Moxen and Dark Rituals for speed/vomiting out your hand while you refill with Bob AND Blood Scrivener?

[apple713]

Hatred is way too expensive, and Sickening Shoal is probably over-removal. I don't think Pulse Tracker is better than Rakdos Cackler, since both DRS and Stoneforge can just block him, and those are VERY common creatures in legacy. Besides, you shouldn't need to block, but if you do, you can drop Rakdos Cackler without the unleash.

Blood Scrivener is definitely needed, even if that's quite a bit more money than I would enjoy spending... what the heck, I'm on college vacations.

I'm thinking something like this:


Creature (23)

2x Blood Scrivener
4x Carnophage
4x Diregraf Ghoul
2x Guul Draz Vampire
3x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Rakdos Cackler
4x Vampire Lacerator

Instant (17)

3x Contagion
4x Dark Ritual
4x Snuff Out
1x Soul Spike
4x Spinning Darkness

Sorcery (7)

4x Duress
3x Hymn to Tourach

Land (13)

14x Swamp


Doubts: 3x Contagion? Maybe 4? I think 2 is too little.

And don't worry, with my initial decklist, like 90% of the time I had enough cards to use Spinning Darkness. And we only have 5 true card disadvantage cards in this list (not counting life loss), so I don't think that will make a huge difference.

And, in this deck, I think Dark Ritual is absolutely needed. Usually Dark Ritual spells card disadvantage, cause people drop like a Hyppie or Obliterator, but in this deck, you'll be dropping 3 creatures, or 1 Duress + 2 2/2's first turn. Huge advantage, hard to wipe out.

cackler is better

blood scrivener is $1 per card, u can swing it. u should have 4 if your not running bob.

Initial list looks good, but i would change duress to inquisition. I would not run soul spike.

i would cut the creature destruction down to 8 spells , 4 snuff 2 contagion 2 spinning or 4 contagion

i would run death's shadow, 2-3 of him. especially if you are running snuff out.

if you find yourself stacking your graveyard with lots of cards you could even try ghastly demise, no card disadvantage

if you want to run 4 deaths shadow, you can take out contagions and spinning darkness and run 4 dismember.

I would find a way to run bob cause with scrivener you will always have at least 1 or the other in play and be drawing extra cards.

if there was a mini overrun for black it should be played in here. t1 dark ritual for 3 creatures. t2 +1 power effect and attack, puts them at 9 on their first turn... pretty good

not sure why pryrexian revoker is in here but id probably take it out for bob


Creature (28)

4x Blood Scrivener
4x Carnophage
4x Diregraf Ghoul
2x Guul Draz Vampire
4x dark confidant
4x Rakdos Cackler
4x Vampire Lacerator
2x death's shadow

Instant (11)

1x ghastly demise
4x Dark Ritual
4x Snuff Out
2x dismember

Sorcery (7)

4x inquisition of Kozelick
3x Hymn to Tourach

Land (14)

10x Swamp
4x chrome mox (gives speed and empties hand. also gives you something to do with cards you cant cast because you have no targets, such as creature removal against a combo deck)

[MirrorMask]

It is supposed to be a budget a deck we are helping him build here. So no BOBS no Moxes... Death's Shadow really needs some testing. Its quite good by the way and I forgot to mention it. Thumbs up for the guy who did. I have the feeling that the way the deck is heading now it would loose steam quite fast and with only 2/2 s they can block you easily. If You try to swarm them with black weenies then shouldn't you include some Bad moons? Also, cursed scroll that I mentioned is extremely good if you think about it. Give it some love and it will reward you. For some permanent discard you could even use bottomless pit if it fits. With blood scrivener (or whatever it is called) it won't be a disadvantage for you. I also think that having too many removals MD is a huge disadvantage. Legacy decks don't use that many creatures (except zoo,goblins,elves, affinity-which aren't THAT popular)

[apple713]

It is supposed to be a budget a deck we are helping him build here. So no BOBS no Moxes... Death's Shadow really needs some testing. Its quite good by the way and I forgot to mention it. Thumbs up for the guy who did. I have the feeling that the way the deck is heading now it would loose steam quite fast and with only 2/2 s they can block you easily. If You try to swarm them with black weenies then shouldn't you include some Bad moons? Also, cursed scroll that I mentioned is extremely good if you think about it. Give it some love and it will reward you. For some permanent discard you could even use bottomless pit if it fits. With blood scrivener (or whatever it is called) it won't be a disadvantage for you. I also think that having too many removals MD is a huge disadvantage. Legacy decks don't use that many creatures (except zoo,goblins,elves, affinity-which aren't THAT popular)

ok cut the bobs and moxes

Creature (33)

4x Blood Scrivener
4x Carnophage
4x Diregraf Ghoul
2x Guul Draz Vampire
4x Rakdos Cackler
4x Vampire Lacerator
4x death's shadow
4x signal pest (net effect is the same as a 2/2 with 2 creatures, better with more)
3x memnite

Instant (15)

2x ghastly demise
4x Dark Ritual
4x Snuff Out
2x dismember
3x contagion

Sorcery (8)

4x inquisition of Kozelick
4x Hymn to Tourach

Land (14)

14x Swamp


the deck could use gravecrawler a whole lot, but idk if that is budget enough. i've made some updates for budget friendly

[Zupponn]

I think that I'd almost want to run Sewer Rats over the Cacklers. You can block with it if you need to, or even take out a small Goyf. Also, it helps the Shadow grow bigger if you're running it as well. If nothing else, it's worth testing a tad.

[MoxBropal]

I'm always up for trying to make Mono Black work, budget or not.

I've messed round with a 'tempo' list using Aether Vial instead of Dark ritual. Creature package looked like...

4x Gatekeeper of Malakir
4x Vampire Nighthawk
4x Dark Confidant (or Blood Scrivener)
4x Phyrexian Revoker)
3x Mesmeric Fiend

It's not as aggro as above, but has more resilience to Sneak and Show. A vialed-in Mesmeric Fiend in response to Show and Tell can win the game for you. The Revokers help shut down Sneak Attack, Equipment, etc. I know Gatekeepers seem awkward in a Vial deck but Vial frees up your mana so kicking the Gatekeeper is not a problem, and always a strong tempo play.

You could also go the Zombie route with Gravecrawler, Carrion Feeder and friends. Fleshbag marauder can be sick with Vial, especially against S&T.

[-Spooky-]

I can agree with everything people have been discussing except revoker. I just don't see his purpose in the main deck. Sideboard is fine, but there are quite a few cards I would consider before I put him in the main. I just don't see him fitting the "flavor" of the deck. :/

also, I don't know if any of you are familiar with 9-land stompy, but it is basically a green version of what is being made here. Granted, we have no black version of Land grant or Elvish Spirit Guide (wouldn't that be sweet) but we do have Dark Ritual. Also, The Reason I bring this up is that we may be able to take some ideas from the archetype, namely Winter Orb. I'm not saying it is certainly the best route, but it is worth considering, since the decks are pretty similar in a few ways.

[Hardcore]

Vial is an excellent idea! Tempo is not about playing 2/2's, but doing it while disrupt the opponents play.
Very good comment about fiend and gatekeeper.

The question is what more to put in the deck.
Also, to keep the budget remember vial is expensive enough for original poster. No more expensive cards.

4x Gatekeeper of Malakir
4x Vampire Nighthawk
4x Dark Confidant (or Blood Scrivener)
4x Phyrexian Revoker)
3x Mesmeric Fiend

This is a good start. But BOB, and most likely also scrivener, will cost too much. This leaves us with 16 creatures, ca 20 swamp and about 24 more slots to fill.

Four phyrexian arena give card draw.
Four duress is cheap discard.

[wooboy11]

I can agree with everything people have been discussing except revoker. I just don't see his purpose in the main deck. Sideboard is fine, but there are quite a few cards I would consider before I put him in the main. I just don't see him fitting the "flavor" of the deck. :/

also, I don't know if any of you are familiar with 9-land stompy, but it is basically a green version of what is being made here. Granted, we have no black version of Land grant or Elvish Spirit Guide (wouldn't that be sweet) but we do have Dark Ritual. Also, The Reason I bring this up is that we may be able to take some ideas from the archetype, namely Winter Orb. I'm not saying it is certainly the best route, but it is worth considering, since the decks are pretty similar in a few ways.


What if I completely revamped the idea, and turned this deck into a 9-landish mono black deck?

That is why I was dropping the land count to 13-14 (9 lands + 4 land grant).

The Winter Orb idea is nice, but like someone else said: many decks can easily play around it.

I actually do own a version of a 9 land, but I don't run Spirit Guides, since I don't need them, really. The decks plays very nicely because the threats just never end. But in my 9 land's case, it has Bequeathal, alongside Skyshroud Ridgeback, so there ain't any card disadvantage, except for 2 Bounty of the Hunt.

I kinda agree on the Revoker point, but as I was playing against an Elf Combo, and dropped a Revoker on their Heritage Druid, he immediately said: "wow, it was very clever of you putting Revoker in your deck" lol. So, I'm unsure... maybe drop to 2 and 1 in SB?

[MGB]

Why play bad creatures like Carnophage and Order of the Ebon Hand when you could play really good stuff like Dark Confidant or Bitterblossom?

You also need to play Thoughtseize instead of Duress, and you need to play Wastelands. You also might want to play Liliana of the Vess.

Is this a budget list? A casual list?

[apple713]

Why play bad creatures like Carnophage and Order of the Ebon Hand when you could play really good stuff like Dark Confidant or Bitterblossom?

You also need to play Thoughtseize instead of Duress, and you need to play Wastelands. You also might want to play Liliana of the Vess.

Is this a budget list? A casual list?

budget

so i think that answers all your statements

[HammafistRoob]

Yes, if you read the OP he said that it's a budget build. IMO the best way to take advantage of the Tempo in mono black is definitely Tombstalker. While Spinning Darkness is pretty good, I would much rather pack Tombstalkers since he's just so hard for most decks to deal with. Also Slaughter Pact can create some nice tempo swings and is budget friendly.

EDIT- Yikes I got ninja'd by an apple.

[Hardcore]

Yeah, Tombstalker is nice, but he needs protection. I am thinking of adding Lightning Greaves to my creature pox deck for this very reason.

[MGB]

I play Darkblast MD in my mono black tempo deck. It's great in a format full of x/1 creatures, and it helps you play early Tombstalker as well.

Try it out.

[wooboy11]

Why play bad creatures like Carnophage and Order of the Ebon Hand when you could play really good stuff like Dark Confidant or Bitterblossom?

You also need to play Thoughtseize instead of Duress, and you need to play Wastelands. You also might want to play Liliana of the Vess.

Is this a budget list? A casual list?

I'm not using blitterblossom, Thoughtseize and Liliana because those just don't fit what I'm looking for.

Besides, what is the point of making another The Gate? We all know these cards work, it's just dumb to discuss over what is already known. Like, "oh, you're making a blue deck? I THINK you should play brainstorm and force of will, those are very good cards." derp.

Maybe I'm idealistic, but I just think many cards are overlooked because they don't fit the usual "I spend money and win" archetypes.

Now, if everytime you see a different list, you go "those are bad cards, play XXX every deck plays", you're never gonna leave metagame stagnation.

[MirrorMask]

^ Aaaand you are right! I like your idea but I kind of doubt how much the deck can last with only 2/2 creatures without any other damaging capabilities to finish off you opponent who will be at low life (hopefully). Without cursed scroll, bad moon or something like the zombardment decks play goblin bombardment, paired with self-reanimating creatures you will lose your tempo.

If you invest too much in removal spells to maintain your small guys, you risk to have them nullified by combo and control decks who don't run creatures or run invulnerable creatures. If you have too many discard spells then you won'y be able to finish off creature decks that easily. Having only 2/2 won't get your job done. They need support which you didn't include.

P.s and don't forget to have some draw spells/creatures-it's mandatory!!

[MGB]

I'm not using blitterblossom, Thoughtseize and Liliana because those just don't fit what I'm looking for.

Besides, what is the point of making another The Gate? We all know these cards work, it's just dumb to discuss over what is already known. Like, "oh, you're making a blue deck? I THINK you should play brainstorm and force of will, those are very good cards." derp.

Maybe I'm idealistic, but I just think many cards are overlooked because they don't fit the usual "I spend money and win" archetypes.

Now, if everytime you see a different list, you go "those are bad cards, play XXX every deck plays", you're never gonna leave metagame stagnation.

Except that, in a format with as vast a cardpool as Legacy, certain cards are simply strictly inferior to other choices.

A card like Werebear, for instance, is strictly inferior to Tarmogoyf.

Any of the 1cc or 2cc black creatures in your deck are basically Werebear (or worse) when compared to creatures like Dark Confidant or Enchantments like Bitterblossom.

After all, Dark Confidant is maybe one of the 5 best creatures EVER printed. There's no reason not to run him in anything Black (especially mono black tempo) unless, of course, you are building a budget or casual deck. If you have any intention to be a competitive deck, you basically have to include the best of the best options.

That doesn't mean that you have to rebuild The Gate. I am all for metagame diversity and unique decklists. But you will get nowhere, competitively, if you flat-out ignore the best, cream-of-the-crop options in the color you wish to build around. It's just foolish.

[Hardcore]

That depends on his Meta, doesn't it?

Still I really like the idea of using vials in the deck, and go for cards utility cards like gatekeeper and fiends. Vial would even allow for splashing colors.
Mono black with vial and Thalia anyone?

[MGB]

The raw power of cards like Dark Confidant and Wasteland don't really have any metagame-specific conditional value.

If you're playing any kind of black-based tempo/aggro, you basically have to play 4-of them or give up any pretensions of being a competitive deck.

[Hardcore]

I was directing myself at mirrormask, actually.

Still, it is not necessarily the best option to run the best cards. If all you have are grizzly bears then you can have four Bobs in play and still lose to combo unfailingly.

[MirrorMask]

You mean this right? :

"If you invest too much in removal spells to maintain your small guys, you risk to have them nullified by combo and control decks who don't run creatures or run invulnerable creatures. If you have too many discard spells then you won'y be able to finish off creature decks that easily"


Of course it is meta dependent. I was talking about a general, diverse meta. If his meta is infested with aggro for example then, yes, he needs more removals. But, generally speaking, its not wise to pack so much removal or discard. What isn't meta dependent is that 2/2 critters won't get you far without buffs or support unless you are amazingly fast which is not the case. Suicide black for example uses both bad moon and unholy strength alongside with cursed scroll and dark ritual to achieve its speed. Unless, of course, these 2/2 creatures have very powerful abilities. That would be a totally different case.

[wooboy11]

Except that, in a format with as vast a cardpool as Legacy, certain cards are simply strictly inferior to other choices.

A card like Werebear, for instance, is strictly inferior to Tarmogoyf.

Any of the 1cc or 2cc black creatures in your deck are basically Werebear (or worse) when compared to creatures like Dark Confidant or Enchantments like Bitterblossom.

After all, Dark Confidant is maybe one of the 5 best creatures EVER printed. There's no reason not to run him in anything Black (especially mono black tempo) unless, of course, you are building a budget or casual deck. If you have any intention to be a competitive deck, you basically have to include the best of the best options.

That doesn't mean that you have to rebuild The Gate. I am all for metagame diversity and unique decklists. But you will get nowhere, competitively, if you flat-out ignore the best, cream-of-the-crop options in the color you wish to build around. It's just foolish.

Indeed. I think Dark Confidant really would be needed, and I see you point. Rereading what I wrote, I sounded kinda assholish. I wasn't directing the hate towards you, just so you know. It was something stuck in my belly that had to get out. I want to make a different deck. But like people are saying: the 2/2's alone won't get anywhere.

Going to my local store now, gon' do some testing.

[MirrorMask]

Lets see how it goes. Oh and, by the way, saying that we should try different ideas is by no means offensive! Don't forget that the decks that made the difference and won tournaments out of nowhere, were unique and progressive creations that required a lot of testing so don't give up. Copying decks and tweaking them, like we do most of the time, doesn't offer anything to the community other than making something good to become better.

[Zupponn]

It's funny that a lot of Zombardment lists don't run Dark Confidant and do well.

[HammafistRoob]

That's because Zombardment creates a ton of virtual card advantage. IMO black decks need card advantage more than any other deck since we run tons of narrow stuff like removal/discard. It's an awful feeling losing to a planeswalker/Artifact while your hand has 4 dead cards.

[wooboy11]

What about Meekstone? Here is a list I've been thinking, though it's not a tempo deck anymore... more like an aggro:



//Creature (23)

4x Blood Scrivener
4x Carnophage
4x Nantuko Shade
4x Order of the Ebon Hand
3x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Vampire Lacerator

//Instant (9)

4x Dark Ritual
3x Smother
2x Snuff Out

//Artifact (4)

4x Meekstone

//Sorcery (8)

4x Duress
4x Hymn to Tourach

//Land (16)

16x Swamp

[MirrorMask]

Ah.. yes.. meekstone... That is something I forgot. It is usually put in the sideboard to be honest but even main deck can somewhat help you. They still get one attack but that's ok. You can block if you must. Really why no love for cursed scroll? Have you tested it and you didn't like or is it the $9/piece that seems intimidating? Another interesting card that I probably forgot to mention is bottomless pit. You can easily piss-off your opponent with that thing if it goes online.

Another idea would be to try a vampire core instead of a general black weenie. Maybe vampires are not strong enough yet but they do have some kind of synergy. How do you feel about aether vial? I know its not budget yet (it got reprinted in MM as a rare if I am not mistaken so it might drop some bucks) but can help you a lot by allowing to increase the mana cost of creatures without loosing speed.

One last thing... What relevant black/green cards do you own that can be used in eva green or mono black? Do you have some fetchlands? Some shocklands? If not are you willing to invest in those or you want to keep it completely budget no matter what?

P.s : Unfortunately you will have to wait a month before I can give you good feedback (yeah you made me wanna play again with my first love). I will give you results against goblins, elves , RUG-delver,R/U delver-burn, BUG, reanimator, enchantress and merfolk. I am also gonna try variations of the deck but I won't keep it budget though (I have everything else except confidants) But..yeah after a month as I don't have my best-magic-buddies near me to experiment on.

[MirrorMask]

Here is a cheap mono black with many vampires in it (but not only). you might be able to use blade of the bloodchief instead of some other sword (especially Jitte) but it won't be nearly as useful.

creatures (24)
4xvampire lacerator
4xbloodghast
4xBlood Scrivener
3xKalastria Highborn
4xgatekeeper of malakir
2xVampire Nighthawk
3xDeath's Shadow

Spells (18)

4xdark ritual
4xsnuff out
2xdismember
2xcursed scroll
4xduress
2xinquisition of kozilek

Lands (18)
18xmountain <----Because swamp is too mainstream



Second idea for a suicide black

Creatures (24)

4xvampire lacerator
4xcarnophage or 4xblood scrivener
4xDeath's shadow
4xnantuko shade
3xgatekeeper of malakir
3xtombstalker

Spells (18)

4xdark ritual
4xsnuff out
2xdismember
4xhymn to tourach
4xinquisition of kozilek
2xcursed scroll

lands

18xmountain <---again, mountains would be your best choice

[FTW]

Budget Mono black zombies?


//Creatures: 24
4 Carrion Feeder
4 Gravecrawler
4 Diregraf Ghoul
4 Carnophage
4 Blood Scrivener
4 Knight of Stromgald

//Spells: 19
4 Dark Ritual
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Snuff Out
3 Contagion

//Lands: 17
17 Swamp


You should be able to dump your hand quickly and then get card advantage from Blood Scriveners as a poor man's Bob. Carrion Feeder + Gravecrawler combo lets your bears outgrow opposing Goyfs/Knights/etc in the midgame so you can keep attacking through. Knight lets you fly over. Etc.

Carrion Feeder is good outside the combo too. You can sacrifice dudes to stop Batterskull lifegain, Jitte counters, to kill Bridge from Belows, or other things. This won't be amazing but it should give you some tools to work with on a budget if you want to take the balls-to-the-walls approach.

If you want to play something slower and more incremental:

Budget Pox

//Spells: 25
4 Duress
4 Innocent Blood
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Funeral Charm
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
3 Pox

//Win Conditions: 11
4 The Rack
4 Bloodghast
3 Cursed Scroll

//Lands: 24
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Bojuka Bog
15 Swamp


The deck is certainly better with Wastelands and Lilianas but you don't NEED them for it to work. You can also run stuff like Nether Spirit and/or Tombstalkers in the win condition slot, or add fetchlands to make the Bloodghasts even better. MD Bojuka Bog takes up a slot that would usually be Wasteland (doesn't need to be untapped black mana source), a virtual spell slot, and it shuts off recursion and several archetypes in general.

[Hardcore]

what decks are hit by Bojuka Bog?

[kwis]

I think any deck leaning so heavily on the Zombie plan should seriously consider Negator. Having so many spare bodies lying around makes his drawback far less devastating against decks packing Lightning Bolt or decent blockers.

[FTW]

what decks are hit by Bojuka Bog?

A lot of decks use the graveyard as a resource, in some form of another. Bog doesn't do much vs Tin Fins, but:

Dredge, 43 Lands, Landstill (if anyone still plays that), Staxx and Aggro Loam are all pretty reliant on graveyards and potentially vulnerable to sorcery speed GY hate.

Goyfs and Knights get shrunken, Snapcaster and Deathrite Shaman have fewer tools to abuse, Tombstalker and Ghastly Demise become dead cards.

Once you board in real grave hate (e.g. Surgical Extraction, Extirpate, Tormod's Crypt), the MD hate is just added pressure.

Keep in mind you don't need Bojuka Bog to singlehandedly win the game. It's just added value, limits the possibility of opponents finding ways to get around Pox effects. Yes it ETB tapped, but Wasteland effectively does too (most spells require black mana, so you're unlikely dropping Wasteland and casting something with it immediately) and the deck can afford 4. It's basically just a spell slot. Use it or don't use it, up to you.

[Hardcore]

Thanks FTW. Needed to check that I hadn't overlooked any potential tool for my own meta problems. I face shardless things and various combos, mostly. Sadly the bog do nothing against them.:frown: The plan "let them suck on chalice" is still on IOW.

[necrowil]

One thing you may want to keep in mind is honestly a 2/2 is not that threatening especially if you are not running Unholy Strength. You may want to read the old Suicide Primer online for a lengthy discussion as to why they are slow. With that in mind, I think the answer is to go with the cards which have the highest power to casting cost ratio and build the deck with Death's Shadow in mind. Something like:

10 swamp
4 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
4 wasteland
4 ghost quarter
4 dark ritual
4 deathrite shaman
4 death's shadow
4 flesh reaver
4 nihilith
4 hypnotic specter
4 lurking evil
4 hymn to tourach
4 hatred
2 umezawa's jitte

Now I haven't tested this obviously, but I think you see my point. Ritual Lurking Evil, Flesh Reaver, Shadow etc. Shaman and Specter and Ghost Quarter and Hatred are just personal choices but in the current field, they are strong for different reasons. You could play Thoughtseize in place of any of them to bring you into life range for Death's Shadow as well. But I think you see my point. Call it black tempo all you want but this is just Suicide Black. The goal is the same.

[Hardcore]

Eh, power to casting cost, for Deaths shadow, is 0.

The basic idea is sound, and, unless the creature got any useful ability, aim for power 3 at minimum.

[necrowil]

Eh, power to casting cost, for Deaths shadow, is 0.

The basic idea is sound, and, unless the creature got any useful ability, aim for power 3 at minimum.

hardcore i'm curious if you were going to build a hatred deck in the current legacy format, how would you do it? i know you're on a phone and can't exactly throw out a decklist but just curious how you would go about it if you ever get in front of a computer

[Zupponn]

Nantuko Shade might not be the worst inclusion to a deck like this as well.

[Hardcore]

Don't know if I would. It is a win more card.
Guess infect is better.

[necrowil]

I think the Stark version of this deck worked because Jitte is such a strong card even if is somewhat slow. If you read his report he talks about how he would hold his Dark Rtual. Play a zombie and then turn 2 he would ritual Jitte out and equip and swing and most people have a hard time recovering from that because they had no answer or they were tapped out if they had an answer. It’s a solid plan on top of all the discard he ran (12 cards, 4 duress, 4 unmask, 4 hymn) it was fairly devastating to stand up against. Even if he didn't draw that much discard stopping a turn one creature then followed up with Jitte is tough.
Now quite a few decks run Leyline vs discard deck which in my opinion is just subpar really. It usually doesn't stop me from killing them and there are some obvious ways around Leyline. Another issue is Energy Field. Not that many decks in the top tier use these cards though.

One thing I will say about Suicide is if your oppponent is casting multicolor spells with ease then you have failed to build the deck correctly. Shardless Agent, Abrupt Decay and the like are very overpriced spells. The only reason these decks are around is there are so few decks which run disruptive elements in the format at the top tier anymore.
This is interesting spin on the deck that made it to top 4.

http://magic-league.com/deck/78356/suicide_black.html#Suicide Black33466

The deck ran 18 land, no rituals and 28 creatures and splashed white for Tidehollow Sculler which is a solid card and maindecked Withered Wretch. I don't think Deathrite Shaman was legal yet. I really think using expensive cards 3cc spells with only 18 land is an issue. This deck runs 3 Jitte main. Right now I'm of the opinion that any monoblack aggro deck like tempo or Suicide should be running 2-3 Jitte starting. I prefer 3 just to more or less guarantee I will see one fairly early. Mightyduck's version inspired what I am playing now main deck.

Main
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland
3 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Hatred
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Dauthi Horror
4 Dauthi Slayer
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Hypnotic Specter

I will say one thing for this version is Ghost Quarter and the disruption basically destroys anything running three colors in it. Versus Shardless you just go after their green mana. Ghost Quarter is basically Strip Mine versus this deck. And many decks with Wasteland and Ghost Quarter main deck will just fold period. Quarter also allows you to search for one of your basic land if you need. I often will Ghost Quarter my Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth if I draw them in multiples. Let's not even talk about Hymn, Tidehollow Sculler and Hypnotic Specter. These basically serve to insure once they start to die that they stay that way. That's effectively 20 potential disruptive elements to your opponent and 8 of them are creatures which deal damage. Deathrite Shaman is really cruel in the deck as well as you play him turn 1 and go after their hand and land on subsequent turns. He is also awesome late game if they somehow managed to stabilize as a finisher. And guess what, casting Hatred or Jitte after you have hit them this hard will not be an issue. If you like you can play Liliana of the Veil in the Hatred slot which is equally devastating and does answer them if they manage to resolve Tarmogoyf or something like Delver of Secrets. What's interesting is people usually run some answer to deal with Liliana like Phyrexian Revoker but they don't have anything to deal with Hatred usually other then standard counters and removal.

The sideboard needs work and you still need some answer to Esper Deathblade and Goblins and the like but what I like is the deck can just wreck combo decks and a lot of combo tends to be at the top tiers of play. Engineered Plague can handle Goblins pretty well. Other obvious sdeboard cards are Cursed Scroll, Liliana of the Veil, Perish along with Engineered Plague. Also, you might think splashing white for Tidehollow Sculler is not worth it. Well after testing it, I believe it is worth it. Anyway, that's just my two cents.

Peace.

I have seen the true path. I will not warm myself by the fire—I will become the flame.” —Lim-Dûl, the Necromancer

[FTW]

The link you posted uses 0 land destruction and seems very very different. How do you drop Dauthi Slayer or Hymn or Tidehollow on turn 2 with 8 colorless lands (4 Wasteland + 4 Ghost Quarter) in the deck? You won't always have an Urborg out. Running that much land disruption would make me want to run more creatures with 1B casting costs to smooth out the curve (Flesh Reaver, Bob, Blood Scrivener, w/e).

Aren't Hatred and Dark Ritual card disadvantage? Isn't Hatred win-more? Personally, if I were running a disruptive black deck with Hatred finish, my creature suite would include:

4 Inkmoth Nexus
4 Plague Stinger
4 Phyrexian Crusader

IMO Infect is the way to break Hatred, since it actually makes it a 1-hit kill. If you pay 5 mana and 8+ life, you should really be winning the game.

You could play monoblack tempo infect with discard, cheap removal, Ghost Quarters, infect guys, and Unholy Strength/Hatred for a fast kill. Infect+pump might be the fastest way for a monoblack disruptive deck to quickly dispose of a stumbling opponent.

NOTE: Crusader is protection from Bolt, StP, Snuff Out and Ghastly Demise. He dodges pretty much every commonly played removal except Abrupt Decay, and hopefully your LD can keep opponents off greedy Abrupt Decay mana.

[necrowil]

Ghost Quarter has to be one of the most underrated cards in the format right now. Anyone old enough to remember Strip Mine? The card currently banned in Legacy? Its banned for a reason. Against decks with three or more colors, Ghost Quarter is basically Strip Mine with some additional functions. Ghost Quarter is useful when my opponent puts a card on top his library with a Tutor. Sure they can go get a basic land, but they will have to shuffle their library and that card is gone. If I have several untapped Ghost Quarters out and they don’t shuffle their library I will use another. If you need to you can use it as a Fetchland if you are pressed for mana to get a basic land. So while it may not produce colored mana you can use it if pressed to get a land that will. I like to use it when I draw multiple Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. I also loved when I played cards like Bloodghast which you can respond if they try to remove while its in the graveyard

Let’s look at the mana base
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland
3 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Plains

You have 13 sources of black and really you have 17 if you count the Ghost Quarters. That along with Urborg along with Dark Ritual and Deathrite Shaman really makes it fairly easy to get BB to cast Hymn on turn 2. 12 sources of White if you count the Quarters again. Only 3 Scrubland so you don't run into issues with drawing too many and enemy land destruction. The link I posted ran 18 land and 11 3cc spells and 3 Jitte which is expensive and no Dark Ritual and no Deathrite Shaman. I played it and often I found I was dead with a bunch of 3cc creatures in my hand.

In principal what you are saying about Infect is true and not something I have not heard before. I did some testing along those lines. But in testing the fact is I usually cast Hatred for 10 to 14 life on average if at all. Which is close to what you would cast it for in an Infect deck. Also Hatred NEEDS evasion. It needs creatures that cannot be blocked or at least its highly unlikely they will be blocked so Shadow creatures are optimal for that. Flyers are okay but not as good as Shadow in my opinion. Even lower are creatures with protection. Crusader can be blocked by a wide array of things. There are other issues too like all the creatures listed have 1 Toughness and die to Darkblast. I like the fact that I start with only 4 creatures with 1 toughness and I have considered cutting them for that reason. Also I know I am running a few copies of Hatred but it is merely a win condition. The deck can win and often does without casting it. I don’t really need it. It’s a choice of style in this deck.

Regarding Confident I recently found out its not necessary main deck or preferred. I will probably put them in the Sideboard to deal with combo decks and side something like -2 Liliana, -2 Umezawa’s Jitte, +4 Dark Confidant. I wanted Liliana to be main and currently the list looks like this
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Hatred
3 Umezawa’s Jitte
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dauthi Horror
4 Dauthi Slayer
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Hypnotic Specter

I’ll try to post some tournament results soon.

Peace.

I have seen the true path. I will not warm myself by the fire—I will become the flame.” —Lim-Dûl, the Necromancer