[Deck] Welder Survival

[Illissius]

Has the Sharuum/Sphinx combo been given serious consideration before this? It actually seems like a significant development, because you can use it to win the game with only four mana given Survival and an artifact:

:g:: Survival for Anger
:g:: Survival Anger for Orcish Lumberjack
:r:: cast Orcish Lumberjack; activate it for three mana.
At this point, you've broken even on mana.
:g:: Survival for Magister Sphinx
:g:: Survival Sphinx for Sharuum
:g:: Survival Sharuum for Goblin Welder
:r:: cast Goblin Welder; activate it and win the game
So :g::g::g::r: in the end. One more if you only have one creature in hand and can't fetch Lumberjack, or choose not to play Lumberjack. (Also one more, and another creature from hand, if you don't have an artifact and need to find Shield Sphere.)

Why is this significant? The usual argument against Survival combos is that you're better off just chaining Tarmogoyfs. But Survivaling for and playing Tarmogoyf costs three mana itself -- add Squee, and it's four. So four mana to just outright win the game instead doesn't sound so bad any more. (Even six mana to win the game, starting from a position without Survival, doesn't sound like a bad proposition).

The "combo" is somewhat vulnerable, in that they can use removal to keep from dying; but even if they remove one of the flyers, they're still going to die to the other one next turn. If they manage to remove both, well, they're still at 10 life with Anger in your graveyard, Survival in play, and four Tarmogoyfs in your deck. So it's not like a single Swords to Plowshares makes the whole thing fall apart. Significantly, there's no opportunity for them to hit Welder before you activate it; what they can do is hit the artifact you intend to weld out. So Pridemage could be a problem (edit: but if they have Pridemage what they target with it is obviously going to be Survival itself). And graveyard hate as well, obviously.

What are the drawbacks? First, you have to run a decent number of cheap artifacts -- probably some combination of Sensei's Divining Top, Aether Vial, Tree of Tales, and Moxen. Second and arguably more significantly, the combo requires some otherwise dead slots: Goblin Welder, Magister Sphinx, Sharuum, and likely Orcish Lumberjack and Shield Sphere as well. So 3-5 of them.

The question becomes whether having such an efficient combo kill available outweighs these drawbacks; that once you have it it's superior to just chaining Tarmogoyfs is, I think, simply inarguable.

[MattH]

Why is this significant? The usual argument against Survival combos is that you're better off just chaining Tarmogoyfs. But Survivaling for and playing Tarmogoyf costs three mana itself -- add Squee, and it's four. So four mana to just outright win the game instead doesn't sound so bad any more. (Even six mana to win the game, starting from a position without Survival, doesn't sound like a bad proposition).

The goyf > combo argument is not really based around mana efficiency or anything like that. It's a question of "win-more":

When you have Survival going:
-combo plan: wins you the game 100%
-goyf plan: wins you the game 90%

When you don't have Survival going:
-combo plan: wins you the game 5% (generous)
-goyf plan: wins you the game 65%

(just making up numbers here but they are illustrative)

And the numbers get more lopsided when you consider that "getting survival going" probably happens in fewer games than not. So basically the takeaway is, putting combos in Survival is bad unless you already have your whole Goyf quotient, and somehow your combo pieces are not-dead enough that adding cards to protect goyf and survival wouldn't be better.

It's a question of comparing two numbers: the number of games where having the combo cards in your deck wins the game while no other cards would have, and the number of games where the having the combo cards in your deck loses you the game because they weren't something more generally useful. As long as the first number is smaller than the second, the combo in question is bad to run.

It's not impossible to conceive of a combo that is compact enough, durable enough, cheap enough, and not made of otherwise-dead cards, but to date such has not been discovered/printed.

[Illissius]

It's a question of comparing two numbers: the number of games where having the combo cards in your deck wins the game while no other cards would have, and the number of games where the having the combo cards in your deck loses you the game because they weren't something more generally useful. As long as the first number is smaller than the second, the combo in question is bad to run.

That's basically what I said myself, albeit with less precision:


What are the drawbacks? [...] Second and arguably more significantly, the combo requires some otherwise dead slots [...]

The question becomes whether having such an efficient combo kill available outweighs these drawbacks

So I'm guessing you're coming down on the side of "no". Fair enough.

Nonetheless, I do believe it changes things when the combo kill costs a mere four mana, and not e.g. eight as with Saffi/Champion/Caller. In the latter case, it's very hard to imagine situations where you have the time to spend eight mana to combo out, but couldn't have won anyways using the other tools at your disposal. When it's four mana, though, that really does give you the ability to just win out of nowhere. It's very easy to imagine situations where at one moment you're facing down lethal, but then the very next moment your opponent is, and where a Tarmogoyf couldn't have saved you.

I mean, just for comparison's sake: the whole combo, starting from zero, costs 6 mana. That's the same amount that Painter-Grindstone costs. And Painter's Servant and Grindstone aren't famous for being especially useful outside of comboing with each other.

[MattH]

Well, this is certainly the most exciting combo I know of. It's also nice that it isn't especially vulnerable to STP, and only takes 3 pieces you wouldn't be running anyway (2 sphinxes and Lumberjack, although maybe Lumberjack is good enough on its own?). If I seem under-enthused about this, chalk it up to learned helplessness in the face of Tarmogoyf and not because of some inherent weakness of the combo. You make some good arguments; four IS a lot less than other combos...hm.

[Illissius]

Well, there's also the question of whether you want to actually build a Welder deck, or just run the Welder combo-kill incidentally. Designing a workable full-on Welder Survival deck seems difficult, to say the least. In the latter case, Welder itself and Shield Sphere have to be counted as mostly-dead cards as well. (You can get by on artifacts for the combo by running sets of Top and/or Vial, 4 Tree of Tales, and possibly some Moxen.)

[sco0ter]

@Illissius: Yes, the question is: Do you want to run 4 Welders, with some Intuitions as backup, if you don't draw Survival and with more Fatties to discard for Thirst for Knowledge (and to search for with Intuition).

Or do you want to run only 2 Welders (as I currently do), with a small Toolbox, and run more "tutors" for Survival (Brainstorm) and other win conditions outside of the Artifact/Welder theme.

I don't like the "full-on" Welder plan with Intuition that much, since it's still graveyard dependent, it requires an active Welder and it is too situational (you only get the second best fattie into your graveyard). Am I wrong here, and it would be the better plan nonetheless?

[Phoenix Ignition]

Well my take on Sharuum Survival from a list I made over a year ago is:

// Lands
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Tree of Tales
3 Savannah
2 Windswept Heath
4 Taiga
4 Forest
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs

// Creatures
Accelerants:
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Noble Hierarch

Beaters:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Kitchen Finks

Survival Crap:
1 Anger
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Duplicant
1 Heap Doll

Combo Pieces:
1 Sharuum the Hegemon
2 Goblin Welder
1 Magister Sphinx

// Spells
4 AEther Vial
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Thorn of Amethyst

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Kitchen Finks
SB: 3 Elvish Spirit Guide
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Caldera Hellion
SB: 3 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Faerie Macabre

I suppose some explaining is in order. My experience with Survival is that the decks are always far too reliant on SotF and usually don't win without it, so I wanted a strong creature package to try to gain consistency.

With most welder builds people rely far too much on survival into welder, and need to run 3-4 Welders just to run properly, but I like the small package of 2 since you only ever need it to work 1 time and you win.

In lieu of the normal survival package, I use toolbox artifact creatures (Heap Doll to combat Ichorid + Reanimator + IGG loop, Canonist for combo, Duplicant against whatever creature ails you) with a heavy artifact complement. I really like the Thorns main as it gives you a great way to beat combo, and to be able to know that you can cast some spells without any threat of being countered. I was trying these out in a different SotF combo with Demigods (that didn't turn out as well).

Aether Vial and Top are already pretty awesome in survival decks, and Top + welder = extra cards, so they fit here well. I rarely find myself without an artifact and with a Welder, but if so you can search up Heap Doll (shield sphere is just no good against any deck).

And then the combo part. Sharuum is great on his own and I've used him plenty of times through the Vial or with Birds (sad I know) to just fetch me back a Thorn that someone got annoyed at. Better yet he provides a 1 turn kill with Magister Sphinx and Anger.

The most fun I've had is when I beat an infinite life combo deck with this :cool:. The list is probably not completely tuned yet, but you guys should give it a shot it's been doing very well for me.


EDIT:
I've also had plenty of turn 3 kills with this. Turn 1 Accelerant, Turn 2 Survival + pitch a combo piece (Anger, Sharuum or Magister), Turn 3 pitch the other 2 combo pieces, drop a Welder, play any 1 cost artifact, win.

Turn 4 is obviously more likely, but the overall combo here costs :g: :g: :g: :r: after you get Survival out.

[troopatroop]

Well my take on Sharuum Survival from a list I made over a year ago is.

Oh that's so fail. Some of those cards aren't even a year old.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Oh that's so fail. Some of those cards aren't even a year old.

I updated the lands. Thanks troll.

The list is still the exact same except the fetches don't get extirpated as easily. How was that a useful comment?

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I updated the lands. Thanks troll.

The list is still the exact same except the fetches don't get extirpated as easily. How was that a useful comment?

You can never escape the Mind Police, don't even try. :laugh:

[sco0ter]

I updated the lands. Thanks troll.

The list is still the exact same except the fetches don't get extirpated as easily. How was that a useful comment?

and the Pridemages. :-)

Interesting list, although I'd miss blue.
How were the Thorns working out??

[crow_mw]

If we wanted to be exact, Conflux cards weren't available 'over a year ago' either. And Magister Sphinx plays quite a vital role in this list...

My question is, how well do you perform without countermagic and discard? Are vials and the combo kill enough to deal with aggro-control and control decks? I would think that between 3 finks, 5 accelerators and flying kill condition aggro decks aren't that much of a problem. On the other hand majority of the artifacts in MD don't really do a lot versus, say, Zoo...

[Illissius]

Or do you want to run only 2 Welders (as I currently do), with a small Toolbox, and run more "tutors" for Survival (Brainstorm) and other win conditions outside of the Artifact/Welder theme.


Why two of them, though? Why not cut one for a Genesis?

[Phoenix Ignition]

Why two of them, though? Why not cut one for a Genesis?

Swords to Plowshares and other random things can throw a wrench in the gears. Discard spell means you need to pay 3 on a Genesis to get him back at upkeep. 2 is a good number so the first one being removed doesn't stop you from winning.


Thorn of Amethyst helps a lot, it shuts down easy cantrips and makes counterspells more fair (No more FoW/Daze for a tapped out opponent). Top also drastically helps out your draws to hit more of the spells the opponent needs to counter. But in general people will usually spend their mana to play blockers or remove your attackers instead of keeping mana open for a Daze, so all you have to worry about is FoW, which they hopefully have less of since they don't get to cantrip into all of them.

[Finn]

This conversation would be decent for a deck that was being ironed out. Unfortunately the deck is not new. The problem is that it is a hard deck to play, and there are very few people who have actually played it with any consistency. And I can tell that these ideas are those of people with little to no experience with the deck.

1. Fancy Sphinx-Magister plans are groovy and all, but the deck has never needed more uncastable fat. You really should be winning just about every game in which you can activate Survival a few times. It will not be on that turn, but it is nearly certain just the same. You are removing your opponent's resources when they come out. It is a done deal. The Sphinx should probably be tried out, but it is yelling win-more at me.

2. Any plan to beat combo that involves using Survival to get a stopper has no chance of success. A turn 3 silver bullet without any kind of disruption is a puny plan.

3. Birds of Paradise suck ass in this deck. Use Chrome Mox instead. And make sure you have plenty of green spells to pitch to it.

4. Aether Vial is useless. If you have an active Survival, and are not about to lose - you will win, Vial or no. "I counter Welder". "OK. I get another one."

5. Kitchen Finks are pointless since aggro should be a pushover.


I have not played the deck since Zoo came around. And I bet it is a huge help. But on the flipside, you need a lot of removal due to opposing pridemages. Trying to go off in response to removal gets tricky if you are not holding enough creatures. Anyway, here's me putting my money where my mouth is.

2 Quirion Ranger
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Sakura Tribe Elder
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Goblin Welder
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger
2 Shield Sphere
1 Sundering Titan
1 Nullstone Gargoyle
1 Duplicant
1 Triskelion

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Survival of the Fittest

3 Chrome Mox
3 Savannah
3 Taiga
1 Plateau
1 Mountain
1 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Tree of Tales

Thorn of Amethyst is a good card. It would be in the sb for sure, but I just don't think there is enough combo to justify it mb.

EDIT: After reconsidering this deck. I have to admit that it has been quite some time since I played it with any regularity. It seems likely that the metagame is sufficiently different (especially faster) that some of my long held beliefs may no longer be true. For example, I bet it is a tad easier to keep this deck from winning once the soft lock happens. And I think aggro wil be more of a factor.

[sco0ter]

1. Fancy Sphinx-Magister plans are groovy and all, but the deck has never needed more uncastable fat. You really should be winning just about every game in which you can activate Survival a few times. It will not be on that turn, but it is nearly certain just the same. You are removing your opponent's resources when they come out. It is a done deal. The Sphinx should probably be tried out, but it is yelling win-more at me.


First of all, I still appreciate your work and your interest in the deck and know that you have contributed a lot in the past.

I think the point was, to remove other fat (Titan, Gargoyle, Triskelion), in order to add the Sphinx-Magister "kill". Not to add MORE fat.



2. Any plan to beat combo that involves using Survival to get a stopper has no chance of success. A turn 3 silver bullet without any kind of disruption is a puny plan.


I think you mean Platinum Angel here? I guess you are right. But what if you run other disruption (countermagic, discard, or even Thorn) to delay their win and survive until turn 3/4?
I am also unsure about him, but probably he is indeed superfluous.



3. Birds of Paradise suck ass in this deck. Use Chrome Mox instead. And make sure you have plenty of green spells to pitch to it.


The reason why I don't run Chrome Mox currently is exactly this: I don't have enough green cards to imprint, and I really want it to produce green mana.
The reason for the lack of green is, that I want to support Force of Will in this deck (at least give it a try), which asks for many blue cards obviously.

Additionally to that, FoW and Mox would just be too much card disadvantage.

Noble Hiearch actually works quite well for me, if you don't play Mox. It won me games alone. (3 Hierarchs, 1 Welder, which beat for 4 every turn, no survival :cool:)



4. Aether Vial is useless. If you have an active Survival, and are not about to lose - you will win, Vial or no. "I counter Welder". "OK. I get another one."


Aggreed. I tried it out, but the curve is just too bad usually.



5. Kitchen Finks are pointless since aggro should be a pushover.


I don't aggree here. It is easy, if you have Survival turn 2 AND if they can't immediatly answer it with Pridemage or Grip.
If you don't have it, you are in trouble. If they disrupt you, you are in trouble too. And I can't image how you can wait with casting Survival, until you can go off in response to an Pridemage activation.

[MattH]

Is Triskelion still good? He seems way underpowered against everything but Merfolk and -possibly- goblins.

[Phoenix Ignition]

This conversation would be decent for a deck that was being ironed out. Unfortunately the deck is not new. The problem is that it is a hard deck to play, and there are very few people who have actually played it with any consistency. And I can tell that these ideas are those of people with little to no experience with the deck. Thanks for stalking me enough to know which decks I play and/or test? How is this comment useful, are you trying to prevent people from playing a list I post? As it is now the welder survival is almost below tier 2, it obviously needs help and new ideas... why would you try to shut down discussion on the revamping of a deck that is not good?


1. Fancy Sphinx-Magister plans are groovy and all, but the deck has never needed more uncastable fat. You really should be winning just about every game in which you can activate Survival a few times. It will not be on that turn, but it is nearly certain just the same. You are removing your opponent's resources when they come out. It is a done deal. The Sphinx should probably be tried out, but it is yelling win-more at me. You can still lose to an opponent's goyf-filled board or Zoo's burns if they even hit 1 land... I don't understand how removing chaff like Triskelion (who can't handle any tier 1 deck) and a worse creature like Sundering Titan and replacing them with a single turn win, or at the very least 2 turns if they have removal, is a bad thing?



3. Birds of Paradise suck ass in this deck. Use Chrome Mox instead. And make sure you have plenty of green spells to pitch to it.
You play Survival of the Fittest, you need a certain amount of creatures. Taking a creature accelerant out for a Chrome Mox (which in turn removes most likely a creature from your hand) makes the creature count too low to expect to use SotF right away. Birds also gets around Thorn of Amethyst.



4. Aether Vial is useless.
Fair, but I like the possibility of using less mana to win and having a way to ensure I can have enough artifacts in the deck that I wont have to waste valuable resources dropping another creature into the yard to grab another artifact so I can actually use Welder.
Also, the decks that have heavy countermagic will likely not let you get a SotF out and in that case you can just use your uncounterable aggressive creatures to beat them down.

I would be up for suggestions on other artifacts or possibly artifact creatures to use instead, but it sounds more like you just want to say "YOU SUCK FIND IT YOURSELF"


5. Kitchen Finks are pointless since aggro should be a pushover.
Should be, unless they're Zoo (4th turn consistent kill), Goblins (easy 4th turn consistent kill), merfolk (not as quick, but can counter your important spells and still go aggro), or you don't just draw the nuts.



EDIT: After reconsidering this deck. I have to admit that it has been quite some time since I played it with any regularity. It seems likely that the metagame is sufficiently different (especially faster) that some of my long held beliefs may no longer be true. For example, I bet it is a tad easier to keep this deck from winning once the soft lock happens. And I think aggro wil be more of a factor.

If this means you withdraw your earlier out of nowhere comments then I guess you can disregard my post.

[Finn]

Ahh, it sort of does mean that I withdraw my statements. Well, to be completely clear here, and as helpful as I can be on this topic, everything I posted was entirely true of the deck/format circa late 2006. That was the last time I put real effort into it. Even my decklist provided is concerned with shoring up matchups that were bad at that time. At some point (now would be good) I have to admit that my knowledge on the topic is dated.

For example, Birds had been bad against control and aggro-control because the amount of spot removal for Lackey was killing them on turn 1 consistently, and they sucked at all other times. They aren't a threat (this is a very big deal), and the acceleration they provide is nearly meaningless unless you get them early. In this case I suspect this is still true, but I just don't know for sure like I used to.

For the other stuff, the details are similarly uncertain. The deck has had so many threads and people have to start nearly from scratch every time because so few people have practical experience with it, and it never got the level of attention it probably needed even at the beginning. Really, if you read through, you will see the same conversations happening again and again. So you have a few devoted pilots pushing the deck without proper vetting of their ideas, myself included. In September 2004, I joined this site specifically to get ideas to make Welder Survival work. It was interesting because it was before the split, and for some reason nobody had ever thought to try these cards together outside of a silly Vintage deck called Tools n Tubbies or something. Everyone wanted me to use Su-Chi and Juggernaut. So yeah, I was not a good deck designer back then - when the deck took the direction it stayed with for years. And even when Cavern Ninja took it up, whose thread we are reading, he was still experimenting when he lost interest. This deck has never gotten the full treatment. And I mean well when I point out the lessons that I learned the hard way. I want it to succeed.

[georgjorge]

Also, replacing Triskelion with Triskelavite allows you to cut the Duplicant, since it can stop anything up to 7/7, unless you're really scared of big flyers.

[sco0ter]

I am back from the large Legacy event in Hanau (Ger) yesterday. 270 players were there, even coming from USA. Amazing!

I played the list posted few posts ago with small changes (-1 Tropical Island +1 Taiga, -1 Spell Snare +1 Tarmogoyf).

I went 5-4 with it, place 84.

Just a few comments:
- Sphinx of the Steel Wind is really really good.
- I think I only needed to use Duplicant once or twice, just because swinging with Sphinx (especially with Exalted) is already enough to win. Nonetheless I would'nt cut him right now.
- Quirion Ranger wasn't that useful, because Sphinx has pro green and Inkwell has shroud, so that "untap-Welder"-trick usually don't work.
- Sometimes I had problems getting my third (or even second) land. Yes, unfortunately I kept a one-hand-land (+Top or Brainstorm) twice, which was a mistake.
- Noble Hierach is really good. I won games only because of the power of Exalted.
- I could find Survival quite often. Thirst for Knowledge, Top and Brainstorm did a good job here.
- I boarded out Kitchen Finks in nearly every game except against Zoo.
- Firespout in the SB were useless even against Zoo and Merfolk. It kills too much of my own creatures. This should become Lightning Bolts.
- The single Tarmogoyf was ok, but not really needed/gamewinning.
- I am unsure about the Volcanic Island. Tropical or Taiga is probably better?!

I played against:

1. It's the Fear (0-2):
They countered all my 4 Survivals and sworded most of my creatures. I eventually beat him to 2 life in the first game with a huge Coatl but he chumpblock it every turn with Volrath's Stronghold. In the lategame I found Witness, returned Survival, played it. It resolved, and I made the worst error of the whole tournament. I forgot Squee in the next upkeep, which would have won me the game.
Game 2: I only had 1 land, he beat me with double Kitchen Finks.

2. Vampires (2-0)
Bad build, easy win.

3. BW Deadguy (0-2)
Double Wasteland, double Thoughtseize, Hypnotic Specter, Hymn to Tourach, Vindicate... nothing to get here.

4. UB Reanimator (2-0)
He had a relative fast Empyrial Archangel both games, but 5 damage per turn was too slow. I got Inkwell with Exalted which beat the Archangel and eventually him.

5. BGW Survival Rock (2-1)
Tight games. Actually the first, who got Survival going won.

6. ANT (1-2)
No chance preboard. Platinum Angel beats won game 2. Third game could probably be won, if I had had the Taiga...

7. Canadian Threshold (2-0)
Suprisingly very easy matchup. Playing around Daze was easy and I had enough lands against his Stifles and Wastelands. Sphinx is just unhandable for him.

8. Merfolk (2-0)
First game was easy, second game was tough. I was on 1 life, but could stabilize with Survival and won with an exalted Trygon Predator. (For some reason I couldnt use Welder, no red or no artifact I guess).

9. Zoo (0-2)
Tough machtup. Beats + Burn + Pridemages = bad times...

I really liked the deck. I'd probably add another land or a Bird and I felt I need more cheap artifacts.

[raye]

I used to play TnT and I guess that's where I am coming from. Totally different kind of deck but I should know some of the tricks. Next Monday, I'm going to take the following deck to my local weekly. I don't play enough to do playtesting so I'll find out how well it works then.

My goals are to have threats outside of SotF in case it doesn't resolve or I can't find it. Magus (meta is full of non-basics) and Tarmogoyf are those threats. Doesn't seem enough. I don't think Legacy players will think Welder is much of a threat so I really want to abuse him. I feel I need some more ways to dump threats into the yard. I think Lyrist is the weakest thing in my box because it isn't CITP but no other choices are better at a reasonable casting cost. And Birds or Elves? And what about Grim Monolith. I need to eventually try it.

4x Taiga
4x Wasteland
4x Wooded Foothills
1x Windswept Heath
4x Forest
1x Mountain
4x Survival of the Fittest
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Bird of Paradise
3x Quirion Ranger
1x Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
2x Eternal Witness
1x Elvish Lyrist
1x Anger
4x Goblin Welder
1x Squee, Goblin Nabob
4x Magus of the Moon
1x Tin Street Hooligan
2x Triskelion
1x Sundering Titan
1x Shield Sphere
1x Platinum Angel
1x Nullstone Gargoyle
1x Lodestone Golem
4x Thorn of Amethyst

// Sideboard cards for consideration

4x Pyrostatic Pillar
4x Relic of Progenitus
4x Faerie Macabre
4x REB
4x Naturalize
1x Masticore
1x Duplicant

My meta is full of nonbasics and the graveyard is abused pretty often though I don't think many if anyone maindecks hate. Combo exists but I don't play against it every week. I've seen multiple merfolk, zoo decks. At least one other survival deck. I don't see much control.

I'll give my thoughts next week after trying it.

[Oiolosse]

maybe the tarmos are unneeded? You seem to be running a heavy toolbox version, maybe more to support that?

[Finn]

Tarmos are entirely necessary. If aggro-control or control opponents really want to stop your toolbox, they will. If you do not have the ability to apply pressure without it, you will lose these matches.

[raye]

And without SotF, the toolbox is not exactly accessable or even castable. I intend to play this as an aggro deck so threats are rather important.

[sco0ter]

I feel I need some more ways to dump threats into the yard. I think Lyrist is the weakest thing in my box because it isn't CITP but no other choices are better at a reasonable casting cost. And Birds or Elves? And what about Grim Monolith. I need to eventually try it.


Why no blue for Intuition or black for Entomb then?
Viridian Zealot (or the 4/4 naturalize guy with -1/-1 counter) is better than Lyrist + Hooligan, imo.



4x Taiga
4x Wasteland
4x Wooded Foothills
1x Windswept Heath
4x Forest
1x Mountain
4x Survival of the Fittest
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Bird of Paradise
3x Quirion Ranger
1x Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
2x Eternal Witness
1x Elvish Lyrist
1x Anger
4x Goblin Welder
1x Squee, Goblin Nabob
4x Magus of the Moon
1x Tin Street Hooligan
2x Triskelion
1x Sundering Titan
1x Shield Sphere
1x Platinum Angel
1x Nullstone Gargoyle
1x Lodestone Golem
4x Thorn of Amethyst

// Sideboard cards for consideration

4x Pyrostatic Pillar
4x Relic of Progenitus
4x Faerie Macabre
4x REB
4x Naturalize
1x Masticore
1x Duplicant


18 lands is really to few. Especially with 4 Wasteland, which I think, don't fit into the deck. Survival really needs much mana. I wouldn't run a single Mountain either.

3 Ranger are too much I think.

4 Welder too, when your only way is Survival to get fatties in your grave. When you play the deck your Welders just do nothing. You only have 5 cheap artifacts and no fatties in grave.
Add more cheap artifacts (lands, chrome mox) and something like Intuition/Entomb OR play less Welders (2 or 3).

2 Triskelion are too much. Remove them all, or at least one in favor for Duplicant.

Some nice additions to consider would be Sphinx of the Steel Wind and Inkwell Leviathan. (in place of Triskelion and Titan).


I am curious how Thorn of Amethyst, Magus and Lodestone Golem will turn out. Good luck on Monday.

[Combo Winter]

This is the one version of survival that could really utlize the new fauna shaman as its survival chains are very short and it always wanted 8 survivals not to mention one than can be vialed in eot. This is what I think a new version could look like white could be cut for black discard but the mystics really inflate the amount of welder targets in the deck.

4 birds of paradise
4 welder
4 fauna shaman
3 goyf
1 wickerbaough elder
1 duplicant
1 anger
1 shield sphere
1 titan
1 squee
1 qurion ranger
2 stone forge mystic
1 sphinx of the steel wind


4 vial
2 jitte
1 sword of fire/ice
4 stp
4 survival


2 tree of tales
4 wooded foothills
3 heath
3 forest
1 mountain
1 plains
3 sahvanah
3 tiaga

[raye]

Eventually, after I see how this plays, I need to consider that new Shaman too. It isn't as fast as the real thing but gets the job done slowly. Seems like it is a must include. But that is something I can consider in later weeks.

[raye]

I played this deck at my local event last Monday. I ran:

4x Taiga
4x Wasteland
4x Wooded Foothills
1x Windswept Heath
5x Forest
1x Mountain
4x Survival of the Fittest
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Bird of Paradise
3x Quirion Ranger
1x Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
2x Eternal Witness
1x Elvish Lyrist
1x Anger
4x Goblin Welder
1x Squee, Goblin Nabob
4x Magus of the Moon
1x Tin Street Hooligan
2x Triskelion
1x Sundering Titan
1x Shield Sphere
1x Platinum Angel
1x Nullstone Gargoyle
1x Lodestone Golem
4x Thorn of Amethyst

// Sideboard

3x Pyrostatic Pillar
3x Tormod's Crypt
3x Faerie Macabre
1x Krosan Grip
3x Naturalize
1x Masticore
1x Duplicant

It went terribly. I went 0-3 and got the last bye. Would have wanted to play to spend more time with the deck. I made a ton of play mistakes. And in general, I had no game plan. The one time I got survival to stick, I was not effective as I had no idea how I wanted to win. The one time I got Magus to resolve, he was bounced by a planeswalker. Unlike TnT, getting survival is the only real game plan and not just the backup plan. I think I will not be able to play it as an aggro deck as I would TnT but maybe more like a combo deck. And that isn't what I want to play.

The manabase seemed to work well. I rarely had issue with wrong colors and not enough mana. Three Rangers is indeed probably too many (not that I got multiples, I just need more threats).

I'll make a few (maybe just one ranger) tweaks next week and try it again. But the drawing board seems likely. Or the shelf.

[sco0ter]

The one time I got survival to stick, I was not effective as I had no idea how I wanted to win.


Is it really that hard? Winning with Welder Survival is probably easier than with any other Survival variant, once Survival is active. Where was your problem?



Unlike TnT, getting survival is the only real game plan and not just the backup plan. I think I will not be able to play it as an aggro deck as I would TnT but maybe more like a combo deck. And that isn't what I want to play.


I tried to play this deck a little more TnTish, but I think it doesn't work in Legacy. (4 Lodestone Golems, Ancient Tombs, Wasteland).
Lodestones are a little slow at 4 mana and don't have the real impact, that I would expect. We don't have Mishra's Workshop, too.
Also, I hate so many colorless lands in a Survival shell. I even wonder, how this deck can work in Vintage.

If you want the deck to play more aggro, try out: Masknought (or Stifle). Noble Hierarch in place of Birds. Or just more castable critters. Maybe you have some success with 4 Lodestone. I also had some success with Lorescale Coatl + Thirst for Knowledge + Brainstorm.

Hopefully Fauna Shaman will fit in this deck, which could make it more consistent and more aggro.

[raye]

Today, at my local Monday night Legacy event, I tried Welder Survival again. I ran the following:

4x Taiga
4x Wasteland
4x Wooded Foothills
1x Windswept Heath
5x Forest
1x Mountain
4x Survival of the Fittest
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Bird of Paradise
2x Quirion Ranger
1x Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
2x Eternal Witness
1x Elvish Lyrist
1x Anger
4x Goblin Welder
1x Squee, Goblin Nabob
4x Magus of the Moon
1x Tin Street Hooligan
3x Masticore
1x Sundering Titan
1x Shield Sphere
1x Platinum Angel
1x Nullstone Gargoyle
1x Lodestone Golem
4x Thorn of Amethyst

// Sideboard

3x Pyrostatic Pillar
3x Tormod's Crypt
3x Faerie Macabre
1x Krosan Grip
3x Naturalize
1x Triskelion
1x Duplicant

I went 1-3 but the deck played well. It played like I expected. I lost 2 rounds due to my own play mistakes. The deck was threatening and competitive. I was very pleased.

The Masticores were OK. Not great. Zoo's boys are too big to ping to death with ease. I can't recall if Squee worked ideally with Masticore's upkeep cost. It doesn't, right? I never got to use them as a discard outlet but they are reasonably easy to cast.

The manabase seems just fine. I didn't have color or real quantity issues. It obviously isn't the same as Workshop and power, though. I played against a reanimator style deck that didn't seem very optimized, landstill with deed, countertop and zoo. Every match went to game 3 and I was in every game. I think part of that success is due to how often the decks I faced this week running non-basics compared with last week. These are the kinds of decks I envisioned my deck doing well against.

I still think I need better targets for survival. It isn't that I want it to be more comboish but I want more effectiveness. I think Nullstone will be a Inkshroud next week. 7/10 was a champ. 5/3 didn't see action. Magus was solid. Goyf isn't as good if you don't put tons of stuff in the grave yourself. I didn't really hit that much effective grave hate. I didn't miss the Trikes. They are better when they can be hardcasted.

I need to spend more time playing this deck and improve how well I play it more than I need to change the deck, I think.

[heroicraptor]

I can't recall if Squee worked ideally with Masticore's upkeep cost.

They both trigger at the beginning of your upkeep, so you stack the triggers how you want.

I think Razormane Masticore would be better for you vs Zoo. A Bolt is usually enough to knock out their dudes.

[Leftconsin]

One thing I wondered about in one of your matches is why you didn't regenerate Masticore when it got targeted by a Ghastly Demise. In fact, in that matchup I think the only answer your opponent had to Masticore that you couldn't regen through was bounce it with Jace and counter it when you recast it.

[raye]

One thing I wondered about in one of your matches is why you didn't regenerate Masticore when it got targeted by a Ghastly Demise. In fact, in that matchup I think the only answer your opponent had to Masticore that you couldn't regen through was bounce it with Jace and counter it when you recast it.

The explanation is that I am a terrible Magic player. I need to know Legacy cards better and I need to remember I can regenerate Masticore. Have not quite wrapped my head around people playing removal spells that don't Exile or don't make me sacrifice a creature. I'll do better with Masticore next time and I'll make sure to know how to use him with Squee.

[jazzykat]

I'm glad someone is playing this deck. I have a few general suggestions: Nullstone Gargoyle shouild be taken out.
What is the purpose of 1 Lodestone Golem in a deck that doesn't PLAY many artifacts?
Obviously Platinunm Angel stops you from losing although, I tend to think that Sphinx of the Steel Wind does so after 1 or 2 attacks.
Possible Robots: Sphinx of the Steel Wind, Inkwell Leviathan (as already mentioned), Duplicant
Depending on what you are having trouble with you can adjust your robot package.
Vs. Zoo Razormane is better than normal Masticore.

Do you really need:
1. the second Quirion Ranger
2. Elvish Lyrist + Tin Street Hooligan. Isn't there just one creature you find to do both?

If you can cut these utility slots, and I don't know if you can, you can add more creatures that are good without survival to shore up your bad matchups.

Regarding Tarmogoyf: To the extent that graveyards are not getting filled, then you are probably winning since you play a lot of permanents and if they are sticking you are probably in good shape.

IMO you should have a go to robot for each of the most popular matches (It can be the same one, i.e. Sphinx is pretty awesome vs. Goblins and Zoo) and something for your really bad matches. Use a few slots as possible to support survival and then load it full of creatures to shore up bad matchups.

Good luck. It's a fun deck and I like how you went straight ahead RG and went hard with Blood Moon effects.

[Malakai]

It went terribly. I went 0-3 and got the last bye

I went 5-4 with it, place 84.

I went 1-3 but the deck played well.
Please stop playing this deck.

[sco0ter]

Please stop playing this deck.

Lol. no. I am glad, someone puts some work into it.

@decklist:
I'd play 20 lands, especially with 4 Wasteland and without library manipulation. Cut 1 Ranger for it.

Noble Hierarch > Birds in your list. You have enough red sources.

Do you really want 3 Masticore? I'd cut 2 for Duplicant and another castable creature.
Triskelion feels better in general, due to its speed.

Sundering Titan has no synergy with Magus unfortunately, but I guess you either have one or the other.

How good/important were Magus and Thorn? Do you think it is worth cutting Magus in favor for adding a third color (Discard or TfK/Intuition)?

Why no Chrome Mox?

Oh, and squeeze Sphinx of the Steel Wind in. It is probably the best Welder target.

[raye]

What is the purpose of 1 Lodestone Golem in a deck that doesn't PLAY many artifacts?

The goal is to slow my opponent down. Probably works better when I play workshop... Hasn't actually been useful so far. But at 4cc, it is castable. Will put it on the chopping block next week if it still sucks.



Obviously Platinunm Angel stops you from losing although, I tend to think that Sphinx of the Steel Wind does so after 1 or 2 attacks.
Possible Robots: Sphinx of the Steel Wind, Inkwell Leviathan (as already mentioned), Duplicant
Depending on what you are having trouble with you can adjust your robot package.
Vs. Zoo Razormane is better than normal Masticore.

I'll re-consider these robots after next week. Inkwell will go in next week. Zoo isn't usually something I run into but might be good to have them in the side. My goal is indeed to improve the quality of my selections. Will take me some time since I'm going with the stuff I know that worked in a totally different deck.



Do you really need:
1. the second Quirion Ranger
2. Elvish Lyrist + Tin Street Hooligan. Isn't there just one creature you find to do both?

Indrik Stomphowler is perfect. Better than both my guys combined. But 5cc is too high. There isn't another creature that can hit both. I don't fetch the Ranger when I play. I used to run 3. Can't tell if 1 is the best number but I'll keep it at 2 for now.

@Sco0ter:
Noble Hierarch seems fine but I better fall a lot deeper in love with this deck before I invest in them. Magus is a big reason I play this deck. I love attacking manabases. Especially with how many nonbasics get run at my local. I'd cut green before I'd cut red :).

[sco0ter]

There isn't another creature that can hit both.

Viridian Zealot
Wickerbough Elder

[jazzykat]

Wickerbough get's around CB and is a decent size beater.

[raye]

I prefer CITP abilities. Gets around Humility a little bit.Is it worth the extra card? I don't know. If my enchantment kill was also CITP, I'd say definately. Now, not sure.

[sco0ter]

I prefer CITP abilities. Gets around Humility a little bit.Is it worth the extra card? I don't know. If my enchantment kill was also CITP, I'd say definately. Now, not sure.

Citp doesnt get around Humility. Stomphowler won't kill it.