Why aren't people packing back to basics

[KobeBryan]

There's so many 3 color decks now, some with 4 colors. Why aren't anyone packing these in the sideboard anymore.

[Shawon]

Deathrite Shaman, and Abrupt Decay gives decks a MD answer to B2B.

[Arsenal]

There's so many 3 color decks now, some with 4 colors. Why aren't anyone packing these in the sideboard anymore.

Also, unlike Blood Moon (which still sees fringe play in Dragon Stompy and in some other deck's sideboards), B2B doesn't shut off your opponent's colors, so he can still actually play Magic, albeit at a slower pace, and he can still just Abrupt Decay your B2B eot, then proceed to rape face.

[HammafistRoob]

The real question is why no love for Spell Snare?

[thecrav]

If you're playing a deck where B2B can be played, you're playing something that's MonoU or close to it. This means you're probably not playing any mana acceleration.

Without mana acceleration, you're tapping out on turn 3 to play a land hoser against a deck that's got a Deathrite Shaman out and might have already cascaded once. In short, they're already pretty far ahead of you and playing B2B doesn't do much about that.

Your mana would be better spent answering their threats, or creating threats of your own.

[alphastryk]

Back to Basics still lets people produce mana from future lands, while being vulnerable to abrupt decay. It just doesn't actually get the job done. Blood Moon on the other hand...

[TsumiBand]

To be certain, Back to Basics in concert with that blue Kismet from Planar Chaos would be hilariously bad together. Too bad they both cost too much and don't actually kill anyone.

Bad hate is bad, to the point that you may as well just be playing a sideboard card that is more optimal in more circumstances, as opposed to being suboptimal but "good enough" in other circumstances.

I mean if you really wanted to pwn someone's land for 4 mana, you'd just play Armageddon right? Now that Flagstones of Trokair isn't quite as terrible in multiples as it was before, it isn't unthinkable that one could profit from such a play. But very few decks seriously consider Armageddon, it is too symmetrical and may not even work.

No one plays Choke. At least, not that I can think of straight away. That's way more brutal than Back to Basics, IMO - and who wouldn't want to watch that blowout, turn one Root Maze turn two ESG -> Choke. But Choke doesn't see play.

Obviously, Wasteland is a format staple and not going anywhere - and if it did Beta duals would not be far behind, so let's hope it stays that way. Really the only other piece of express nonbasic hate that I think people every really see played seriously is Price of Progress, because it's a huge play (and a huge dick move) to get 8+ damage for 1R, without something as trifling as a Storm count to help you out. It would be cool to see stuff like Karma or Contamination or whatever played in their respective colors, but ultimately it isn't a winning move, it's just Really Neat.

[nedleeds]

No one plays Choke. But Choke doesn't see play.


Huh? (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/busqueda.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=0&nhigh=0&dlow=0&mlow=0&ylow=0&dhigh=0&mhigh=0&yhigh=0&player=&dname=&format=Noformat&aname=&main=&nomain=&side=choke&noside=&strict=on)

[TsumiBand]

Huh? (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/busqueda.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=0&nhigh=0&dlow=0&mlow=0&ylow=0&dhigh=0&mhigh=0&yhigh=0&player=&dname=&format=Noformat&aname=&main=&nomain=&side=choke&noside=&strict=on)

That's fair. But also that's like... most of those are 1-ofs/2-ofs in the board. How bad do you want to see your Choke if it's a 1-of in your board and you're Maverick? Maverick is just as soon inclined to Waste your duals anyway. In my experience a one-of in your board is a "wouldn't it be sweet if I topdeck this junk" strategy, instead of a dedicated hate strategy.

My goof on Choke aside, I don't think I'm wrong about Back to Basics. Or Price of Progress for that matter. I don't think a play-by-play strawman argument is much fun, so assuming spells resolve, B2B can be played around while PoP can end the game.

[Tammit67]

The real question is why no love for Spell Snare?

That's what I'm saying!

[Malakai]

The real question is why no love for Spell Snare?
Sometimes they play a two drop, then you draw it a turn later, and then you feel a despair in the bottom of your soul.

[nedleeds]

That's fair. But also that's like... most of those are 1-ofs/2-ofs in the board. How bad do you want to see your Choke if it's a 1-of in your board and you're Maverick?

I can't tell if you are trolling, but I'll bite. Of the 3 top placing Jund decks 2 of them ran 3 chokes.

a) Choke doesn't do anything in multiples
b) You want to place it on the stack after an opponent has several Islands tapped
c) It costs 3 so you want to play it after you have 4-5 mana perhaps to play around Spell Pierce / Daze
d) the other half of the lists run Enlightened Tutor ... this is a magical instant that allows you - the planewalking magus; to search your library of spells and place an enchantment or artifact of your choosing on top of your magical library.

[HammafistRoob]

Sometimes they play a two drop, then you draw it a turn later, and then you feel a despair in the bottom of your soul.

While that may be true, the same could be said for any counterspell. What can't be said for any counterspell is this thing costs one mana, and doesn't get ANY weaker as the game progresses. Can you name a good deck that plays no two drops?

[Tammit67]

While that may be true, the same could be said for any counterspell. What can't be said for any counterspell is this thing costs one mana, and doesn't get ANY weaker as the game progresses. Can you name a good deck that plays no two drops?

A lot of show and tell lists that aren't UR omniscience. Its not what you want against elves/goblins either.

[Star|Scream]

d) the other half of the lists run Enlightened Tutor ... this is a magical instant that allows you - the planewalking magus; to search your library of spells and place an enchantment or artifact of your choosing on top of your magical library.

Can't tell if epic storytelling or just sarcasm.

[Lord Seth]

The problem with Back to Basics is that it affects you too, so it really only works in mono-Blue decks. Choke is good because it only requires you play Green and not Blue, but Back to Basics is very weak in any deck that isn't mono-Blue. And even mono-Blue decks often play nonbasics like Wasteland, which this hits. I used to try it in this mono-Blue Wizards deck I played, and sometimes if I wanted to play it I had to tap that Wasteland to cast it and couldn't use it.

Another issue is that it can't hit the board until turn 3, because it doesn't work great with acceleration. It shuts off your Ancient Tombs, and neither Elvish Spirit Guide nor Simian Spirit Guide give you the right color mana.

If I go back to High Tide, though, I might play Back to Basics just to troll people.

[TsumiBand]

I can't tell if you are trolling, but I'll bite. Of the 3 top placing Jund decks 2 of them ran 3 chokes.

a) Choke doesn't do anything in multiples
b) You want to place it on the stack after an opponent has several Islands tapped
c) It costs 3 so you want to play it after you have 4-5 mana perhaps to play around Spell Pierce / Daze
d) the other half of the lists run Enlightened Tutor ... this is a magical instant that allows you - the planewalking magus; to search your library of spells and place an enchantment or artifact of your choosing on top of your magical library.

I wasn't trolling. I was half-telling, half-asking, and it happens I was ill-informed. So I appreciate the explain, because (a) it had not occurred to me that later is fine if you're playing around a counter anyway (b) I skimmed the lists b/c I was at work so literally had no clue about Enlightened Tutor.

Did I mention the part where I told everyone that no one around here plays Legacy anymore, and that my ADD makes me a terrible person to be around when the primary tasks involve memory retention over mid-to-long periods of time? Anyway. I'm an ass.

I still value PoP higher, because it will literally end the game as opposed to functionally. Of course I'm talking about a match where you would actually side it in - they clearly have different applications. But in a match where Choke is good, it doesn't actually do any killing. Like I doubt anyone has ever resolved a Choke and said "game 3?" and been serious. Whereas a turn 5 PoP can kill a motherfucker.

At any rate, I'm going back to dumpster diving through my personal collection of terrible cards, because I'm fairly certain that I have a Divine Intervention somewhere in my house and I want to troll some EDH playing schmucks really hard with that and Vampire Hexmage at the next have-at. OBZEDAT WILL HAVE HIS REVENGE


edit - apparently I don't have a Divine Intervention. Balls.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

When M14 drops, you'll have a stellar competitor for non-basic hate:

Burning Earth - 3R
Rare
Enchantment
Whenever a player taps a nonbasic land for mana, Burning Earth deals 1 damage to that player.

Wizards really knows how to print serious nonbasic hate with unique and interesting designs.

[LOurs]

B2B disruption is permanent but the card is both too symetrical and way to slow for the format.

In fact, currently it isnt enough disruptive to deserve slots imo.

The strategy with B2B is nothing else than land/mana denial. But often, wastelands along with sphere effect (including thalia in example) are much more efficient, faster and more versatile. Even cards like root maze, rishadan port or winter orb, even if they do not see that much play, could accomplish a better job so there is simply no reason to play B2B. Except maybe the surprise effect, but there are also better ones imo.

[nedleeds]

I wasn't trolling. I was half-telling, half-asking, and it happens I was ill-informed. So I appreciate the explain, because (a) it had not occurred to me that later is fine if you're playing around a counter anyway (b) I skimmed the lists b/c I was at work so literally had no clue about Enlightened Tutor.

Did I mention the part where I told everyone that no one around here plays Legacy anymore, and that my ADD makes me a terrible person to be around when the primary tasks involve memory retention over mid-to-long periods of time? Anyway. I'm an ass.

I still value PoP higher, because it will literally end the game as opposed to functionally. Of course I'm talking about a match where you would actually side it in - they clearly have different applications. But in a match where Choke is good, it doesn't actually do any killing. Like I doubt anyone has ever resolved a Choke and said "game 3?" and been serious. Whereas a turn 5 PoP can kill a motherfucker.

At any rate, I'm going back to dumpster diving through my personal collection of terrible cards, because I'm fairly certain that I have a Divine Intervention somewhere in my house and I want to troll some EDH playing schmucks really hard with that and Vampire Hexmage at the next have-at. OBZEDAT WILL HAVE HIS REVENGE


edit - apparently I don't have a Divine Intervention. Balls.

It's fine, you own a viking helmet.

[TsumiBand]

When M14 drops, you'll have a stellar competitor for non-basic hate:

Burning Earth - 3R
Rare
Enchantment
Whenever a player taps a nonbasic land for mana, Burning Earth deals 1 damage to that player.

Wizards really knows how to print serious nonbasic hate with unique and interesting designs.

I'm not saying this is amazing, BUT. I can see why they would print this for Modern/Standard, considering that all their duals have damages on them. Bolting yourself to fetch-sac fucking sucks. It's a little more pressure when your starting life total is actually somewhere between 18 and 14.

I won't be playing it, but I see what they did there.

[phonics]

I'm not saying this is amazing, BUT. I can see why they would print this for Modern/Standard, considering that all their duals have damages on them. Bolting yourself to fetch-sac fucking sucks. It's a little more pressure when your starting life total is actually somewhere between 18 and 14.

I won't be playing it, but I see what they did there.

Its Mana Barbs that doesn't work on basics for the same mana cost.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

I'm not saying this is amazing, BUT. I can see why they would print this for Modern/Standard, considering that all their duals have damages on them. Bolting yourself to fetch-sac fucking sucks. It's a little more pressure when your starting life total is actually somewhere between 18 and 14.

I won't be playing it, but I see what they did there.

I'm not asking for it to be amazing, but I would like some design/development that isn't willfully boneheaded like this. It's a card without a place...where does it fit in? It's too much for aggressive decks like RDW, Rakdos, and Sligh who will hate having a four mana card sit in their hand while they're stuck on three lands, wishing it was gas instead. And even aggressive decks that can swing a four mana card aren't going to want something as ineffectual as this; for four mana in an aggressive deck you expect an evasive, hasty finisher like Falkenrath Aristocrat that protects itself or something with reach or abilities like Hellrider.

And it doesn't fit in more midrange builds as well, because most of them would be multicolored, a la Jund, and would rather not eat damage when there are more effective ways in other colors of defeating opponents rather than feebly "attacking" their manabase.

It's another one in a long line of Red cards that are made for some non-existent "Big Red" deck. Wizards designs all these tools for Red, but development costs them in such a way that they are unappealing to the Red decks that are possible given the cardpools they give to the playerbase. If they're going to keep printing these cards, they could at least have the decency to expand Red's horizens a bit more, even if it only applies to Standard. Give them some stall techniques, card selection/advantage, and maybe even, *gasp*, stack interaction! Make a niche for Red besides "hurr durr aggro doodz" or a splash for other colors.


And as for Modern applications, it obviously has none. Most of the Red decks in Modern tend to be rocking lots of non-basics and are 2+ colors, which is why Blood Moon was never really a "thing" in Modern. And four mana is far too slow to disrupt tempo or combo decks in Modern, which are pretty damn "fast".

If Wizards really wants to fix up Modern's lack of effective nonbasic hate, they're going to have to nut up and print something with teeth. This sounds nice:

RR

Sorcery

Destroy target nonbasic land.

[iamajellydonut]

Wizards has a recent nasty habit of costing cards :1: more than they actually need to be. Burning Earth is a victim of this trend, and that simple :1: has turned it from a very solid Standard/Modern playable into utter bulk bin trash that's not even fit for EDH.

[TsumiBand]

I have no idea why any Red spell that isn't an Obliterate clone costs more than 3. They shouldn't even exist. I don't much care for the "Magic: the Mid-Game" approach for all colors because it is really homogenizing and stupid.

I haven't forgotten about RtR, where there were some fairly costed spells and little creatures. I like Return to Ravnica - the first set in the block, that is. But it's like for whatever the hell reason, Gatecrash hit and they decided that the game starts on turn 4, so everything is this durdly 4/4 - 5/5 creature that costs between 4 - 7 mana with abilities. Exava, Teysa, Lavinia, all that goofy stuff.

I see the goofy 2RRR 5/5 Red creatures and I just want to light a little girl's picnic basket on fire. It doesn't make sense. Like, the only time I should pay 5 for a Red spell is because there's an X in it and because I'm going to pay 7 more, to kill you.

I'm just saying, I see why they'd think that was a good idea. I'm not playing that crap.

[Tao]

You don't want to SB it

- against Canadian because it is too slow
- againt BUG/Jund because of DR Shaman + Decay
- against Combo because it doesn't stop them from comboing
- against UW Control type of decks because they have basics
- against Maverick, Merfolk, Goblins because duh

It has value against all of these though. So B2B is not a SB card. Either MD or not at all.

[Lord Seth]

I'm not asking for it to be amazing, but I would like some design/development that isn't willfully boneheaded like this. It's a card without a place...where does it fit in? It's too much for aggressive decks like RDW, Rakdos, and Sligh who will hate having a four mana card sit in their hand while they're stuck on three lands, wishing it was gas instead. And even aggressive decks that can swing a four mana card aren't going to want something as ineffectual as this; for four mana in an aggressive deck you expect an evasive, hasty finisher like Falkenrath Aristocrat that protects itself or something with reach or abilities like Hellrider.I think it's actually a decent card in Standard. It will be relegated to sideboards, but the card seems absolutely killer against practically anything running Sphinx's Revelation.

[nedleeds]

When M14 drops, you'll have a stellar competitor for non-basic hate:

Burning Earth - 3R
Rare
Enchantment
Whenever a player taps a nonbasic land for mana, Burning Earth deals 1 damage to that player.

Wizards really knows how to print serious nonbasic hate with unique and interesting designs.

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/MTG-KOREAN-STRONGHOLD-RUINATION-MINT-/00/s/NTEzWDM4NQ==/$(KGrHqZHJFUE-k4iuuDPBPzjEWuqmg~~60_35.JPGhttp://i.ebayimg.com/t/MTG-KOREAN-STRONGHOLD-RUINATION-MINT-/00/s/NTEzWDM4NQ==/$(KGrHqZHJFUE-k4iuuDPBPzjEWuqmg~~60_35.JPGhttp://i.ebayimg.com/t/MTG-KOREAN-STRONGHOLD-RUINATION-MINT-/00/s/NTEzWDM4NQ==/$(KGrHqZHJFUE-k4iuuDPBPzjEWuqmg~~60_35.JPG

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I won't be playing it, but I see what they did there.

Heheh. Funny. I think it's pretty decent if you can see paying 4 in a format without Sol Lands...No. It is crap.

/offtopic

I myself have been playing 2x B2B in a UW Miracle Build, and it's been pretty okay. I did toss in a singleton Volcanic and singleton Blood Moon just to try it out and I must say that I do enjoy seeing them have non-basic lands that don't untap during upkeeps that only tap for red in the first place. It's silly. Why play it as well as Blood Moon instead of just the Moon? It will draw off counters about as much as a Blood Moon while still having AWESOME (aka pitches to force), flips a 3 to CB, good against CB to a degree where blood moon can be worse, and is a huge tempo inhibitor for greedy mana bases, where grabbing a basic or 2 can be all one needs to 'handle' an active moon.

I like it, and I myself have been wondering why no one else is playing around with it. Also, Shackles. Where did you go? So epic in metagame atm; DRS, SFM, Cliques, goyf, bob, etc.. so on and so forth. Moar silliness.


I'm not asking for it to be amazing, but I would like some design/development that isn't willfully boneheaded like this. It's a card without a place...

...

...If Wizards really wants to fix up Modern's lack of effective nonbasic hate, they're going to have to nut up and print something with teeth. This sounds nice:

RR

Sorcery

Destroy target nonbasic land.

Right...Nothing amazing. :rolleyes:

-ABC

[MGB]

Back to Basics is a really criminally underplayed card.

You obviously need to be playing a mono-blue shell or very close to it (UW Control with lots of Plains and Islands), but it can single-handedly win games against many of the decks in the format with greedy manabases.

Now, everyone brings up Abrupt Decay, and that is obviously a threat, but in alot of ways Decay has made Mono Blue more viable because before Decay became the de facto artifact/enchantment removal, Krosan Grip came out of the sideboard to do just that, but now that Decay has become popular very few people still play Grip.

Krosan Grip is more powerful vs. blue decks than Abrupt Decay, because there is literally no way to interact with it outside of stacking 3cc cards with Countertop. Mono blue can answer Decay, on the other hand, with cards like Misdirection and Divert. If you pack maindeck Misdirection and/or Divert in a mono blue deck, alongside 4 Back to Basics, you can actually have a >60% winning percentage vs. the B/G decks that sport the card.

B2B is a powerful card because vs. 90%+ of the format, it is basically at the very least a double-Sinkhole for 3 mana. Wouldn't you play a card that read "Destroy two target lands" if it cost 3 mana? And against say, 50% of the format, it is basically a one-sided Armageddon.

And even if it does get hit by Decay, so what? You traded a 3 mana card for a 2 mana card. Barely a loss of tempo, and you're even on card advantage. And it probably took him a few turns to either find the Decay or to get BG untapped. And you can always draw another one from the 4 in your deck. And that's all if you didn't have Misdirection or Divert in hand, and if you did, you can then proceed to blow him out by redirecting the Decay to one of his creatures, and you basically then win the game by default.