Shuffling like idiots

[Bobmans]

A lot of people playing Mtg have different ways of shuffling a deck. And before start a game they shuffle each others deck to avoid deck counting/cheating, etc...
Now one thing that really pisses me off is people shuffling a deck of other people using the riffle shuffle. That technique bends the cards in like 90 degree angle. Seeing it feels like those cards get destroyed.

Now i really can't understand why people do that to other peoples cards other than a few theories:

1. People wanna get you off game by pissing them off shuffling that way.
2. (Try to) show them dominance by using that specific technic as they say:"I don't care about that 1500$ value of cards you're owning.".
3. They're just idiots not knowing about feelings other people might have.

People should show respect to other people and their property and stop being such authistic pieces of shit.

They should forbid this shuffle technique and instantly disqualify people using it.



http://sales.starcitygames.com/images/card_conditions/MP-1.jpghttp://pad1.whstatic.com/images/thumb/9/91/Shuffle-a-Deck-of-Cards-(Riffle-Bridge)-Intro.jpg/300px-Shuffle-a-Deck-of-Cards-(Riffle-Bridge)-Intro.jpg

[Koby]

http://pad1.whstatic.com/images/thumb/9/91/Shuffle-a-Deck-of-Cards-(Riffle-Bridge)-Intro.jpg/300px-Shuffle-a-Deck-of-Cards-(Riffle-Bridge)-Intro.jpg

I would like to add that while riffling the cards doesn't nearly destroy the cards so much as bridging them. The pressure required to riffle is minimal compared to the pressure needed to bridge. The image shown above is an example of a bridge.

[Bobmans]

I would like to add that while riffling the cards doesn't nearly destroy the cards so much as bridging them. The pressure required to riffle is minimal compared to the pressure needed to bridge. The image shown above is an example of a bridge.

Call it chicken or rabbit. As shown as search results bending cards of other people should not be allowed.

link to google (https://www.google.nl/search?q=riffle+shuffle&safe=off&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=11-7Ue_fG4batAbs5YHYAQ&sqi=2&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1920&bih=979)

[nedleeds]

I've said this before, but I don't think you should be allowed to do anything other than cut your opponents deck. For a couple of reasons.

a) If you feel their deck is insufficiently randomized; then that's a rules violation and you should call a judge

b) If they have sufficiently randomized it, shuffling it twice more actually does nothing

c) It actually produces an opportunity for your opponent to cheat a card to the top or bottom of your library - since you don't get last cuts

d) It does bring a chance of damaging others property (this is really the least of the problems)

e) Eternal formats involve a fucking ton of shuffle effects - having 2 people perform it is a colossal waste of time

[Koby]

The shuffle technique is specifically called Riffle-Bridge. Bridging is what causes the worn shown in the OP; not the riffling.


http://pad1.whstatic.com/images/thumb/9/91/Shuffle-a-Deck-of-Cards-(Riffle-Bridge)-Intro.jpg/300px-Shuffle-a-Deck-of-Cards-(Riffle-Bridge)-Intro.jpg

But yes, I agree - shuffling in such a way is not conducive to a friendly and positive tournament experience.

[HammafistRoob]

You could politely ask them to not riffle your cards. Nobody has ever riffled my cards after I asked them not to. If they did I would probably snuff them and get suspended from sanctioned play.

[Bobmans]

I've said this before, but I don't think you should be allowed to do anything other than cut your opponents deck. For a couple of reasons.

d) It does bring a chance of damaging others property (this is really the least of the problems)



I agree on all points accept for this quoted one. This property consists of cards which are hard to collect or has cost you big $$$ and have either nostalgic or emotional value. One should be threated by others this way.
It all comes down to being respectfull.

[Arsenal]

I've said this before, but I don't think you should be allowed to do anything other than cut your opponents deck. For a couple of reasons.

a) If you feel their deck is insufficiently randomized; then that's a rules violation and you should call a judge

b) If they have sufficiently randomized it, shuffling it twice more actually does nothing

c) It actually produces an opportunity for your opponent to cheat a card to the top or bottom of your library - since you don't get last cuts

d) It does bring a chance of damaging others property (this is really the least of the problems)

e) Eternal formats involve a fucking ton of shuffle effects - having 2 people perform it is a colossal waste of time

I agree 100%.

[nedleeds]

I agree on all points accept for this quoted one. This property consists of cards which are hard to collect or has cost you big $$$ and have either nostalgic or emotional value. One should be threated by others this way.
It all comes down to being respectfull.

It's the least of the problems though, magic cards don't come with some set of inalienable rights to use them in sanctioned play with no wear and tear. If you have emotional ties to your cards and their condition you should likely not be playing them in 5-9 round sanctioned play. Also if the attachement, as warped as you sound when you say it, is emotional then you'll never part with them anyway and the wear should be a sign of loyalty, nostalgia and love (?!?!?!).

[JDK]

I've said this before, but I don't think you should be allowed to do anything other than cut your opponents deck. For a couple of reasons.

a) If you feel their deck is insufficiently randomized; then that's a rules violation and you should call a judge

b) If they have sufficiently randomized it, shuffling it twice more actually does nothing

c) It actually produces an opportunity for your opponent to cheat a card to the top or bottom of your library - since you don't get last cuts

d) It does bring a chance of damaging others property (this is really the least of the problems)

e) Eternal formats involve a fucking ton of shuffle effects - having 2 people perform it is a colossal waste of time

Ad c)
That's also subject to a)

Shuffling your opponents deck is probably there to avoid dozens of judge calls for insufficient shuffling.
I don't mind shuffling, as long it's in a reasonable timeframe and no one is damaging my cards.

[nedleeds]

I'd rather just call a judge. If they do it more than once they'll just get dropped. Also I can shuffle twice, or all day and still cheat. I can cheat a card from your library on top of your library at will. If I can do it I'm sure many others without my morals can and do.

[danyul]

Once I sat down from across from a guy who, before we presented, riffle shuffled the shiiizzzz out of his deck. Like absolutely no respect for his own cards. My deck is fully foiled and I politely asked him not to do what he just did to my deck. He stonefaced me and just cut. Going into game two, I guess this mofugger forgot and he riffle shuffled the shhiizzzzzz out of my deck. I wanted to dropkick him into some crazy deathtrap out of a Saw movie.

I don't know about rules or judge calls or whatever.

I just know that my guts hurt when I saw that.

Throw tournament *rules* out of the window. This is person to person basic *nerd etiquette* I'm talking about. Anybody who riffle shuffles their opponent's deck better know some crazy kungfu shit. Because if you make some guy nerd rage on you in the parking lot, no judge can protect you. Not that I would attack anybody. I'm short and fat. I'd definitely complain really loudly though. Soo loudly. Be afraid.

[Finn]

I sleeve my cards. But I otherwise do not make any particular effort to protect them. I'm not a collector inasmuch as I don't give a shit what condition the cards are in. Some of my Vindicates, Candelabras, Wastelands and others are majorly creased like in that picture because they have been shuffled so many times. I only collect the cards so that I can build the decks I want to build. I always cut my opponent's deck. I never shuffle it. I do not care if or how my opponent shuffles mine.

[Bobmans]

Respect.

[MoxMonkey]

The only cards I'll riffle shuffle is my own. If is shuffle an opponents deck it's side slide all the way.

[apple713]

I've said this before, but I don't think you should be allowed to do anything other than cut your opponents deck. For a couple of reasons.

a) If you feel their deck is insufficiently randomized; then that's a rules violation and you should call a judge

b) If they have sufficiently randomized it, shuffling it twice more actually does nothing

c) It actually produces an opportunity for your opponent to cheat a card to the top or bottom of your library - since you don't get last cuts

d) It does bring a chance of damaging others property (this is really the least of the problems)

e) Eternal formats involve a fucking ton of shuffle effects - having 2 people perform it is a colossal waste of time

+1
I hate players who shuffle my deck cause I don't like when ppl touch my cards. It doesn't randomize my deck more than I already have. If my opponent is worried about me stacking my deck he needs to cut it 5 times or something.

Also, you don't know what grease or sweat or crap el giganto has on his hands that is now on your 3,000$ foil deck

[Dan Turner]

I riffle shuffle power. My power is double sleeved and as long as you don't abuse the fuck out of it like bending the cards in half and show some respect you can shuffle my deck even with a riffle shuffle. That is the reason I play with beat cards.

I will always shuffle my opponents deck every time. I always do it with respect but I do it to ensure proper randomization. The only way to ensure a proper randomization is a riffle shuffle, many will argue with this but it is a fact any other shuffle type is open way to much to cheating.

This is a quote from the rules


_______

Once the deck is randomized, it must be presented to an opponent. By this action, players state that their decks are legal and randomized. The opponent may then shuffle it additionally. Cards and sleeves must not be in danger of being damaged during this process. If the opponent does not believe the player made a reasonable effort to randomize his or her deck, the opponent must notify a judge. Players may request to have a judge shuffle their cards rather than the opponent; this request will be honored only at a judge’s discretion.

_____

I have actually won games by people refusing to allow me to shuffle their deck. I will riffle shuffle the fuck out of my deck and then when they present let them know I am going to shuffle, even though I always never go more then maybe a 30 degree bend when shuffling other people cards and I only do it 3 times a lot of time people will say no and try to call a judge. Just about every time the judge will tell them I can shuffle their deck. Some people will just say no and give me the win. I find it to have a very interesting psychological effect even more so in Legacy where shuffle effects like fetches are dominate.

[Bobmans]

I find it to have a very interesting psychological effect even more so in Legacy where shuffle effects like fetches are dominate.

Even if you eat your Black Lotus, people don't care. One doesn't mess with other peoples stuff.

[lochlan]

I have actually won games by people refusing to allow me to shuffle their deck. I will riffle shuffle the fuck out of my deck and then when they present let them know I am going to shuffle, even though I always never go more then maybe a 30 degree bend when shuffling other people cards and I only do it 3 times a lot of time people will say no and try to call a judge. Just about every time the judge will tell them I can shuffle their deck. Some people will just say no and give me the win. I find it to have a very interesting psychological effect even more so in Legacy where shuffle effects like fetches are dominate.

That's a pretty inconsiderate way to behave.

A careful "mash" shuffle produces the same result as a riffle but doesn't risk damaging cards or angering opponents. I often shuffle my opponents' decks, but always with a loose and careful mash. Personally, I cringe when anybody shuffles my deck at all--but I always appreciate when opponents do it carefully.

[Dan Turner]

Even if you eat your Black Lotus, people don't care. One doesn't mess with other peoples stuff.

The rules state I can shuffle my opponents deck I know assholes who will riffle shuffle the fuck out of other peoples cards just to piss people off, at least I am gentle about it with other peoples cards. I riffle shuffle my cards hard mostly as a psychological effect before I go to shuffle theirs just to see if they are going to freak out when they think I am going to riffle shuffle theirs like I did mine.

If I know it will bother a person I will let them know that I am riffle shuffling their deck or they can take a game loss it is their choice before I touch their cards. If they tell me no I always call a judge, it is not me being a dick it is me making sure my opponents cards are sufficiently randomized, a pile shuffle or other types of shuffles are not sufficient randomization. Even machine shufflers use a variation of the riffle shuffle, actually it is the rule in many casinos to require black jack dealers to riffle shuffle a min of 4 times to ensure proper randomization.

If you are really into math here is a paper on the probabilities involved in shuffling.

http://www.dartmouth.edu/~chance/teaching_aids/Mann.pdf

according to the paper to perfectly randomize a deck it takes 128 perfect riffle shuffles... good thing that is not required.

[Bobmans]

That's a pretty inconsiderate way to behave.
Exactly.


The rules state I can shuffle my opponents deck
We all know that...


I am gentle about it with other peoples cards.
Which is totally irrelevant, because


The rules state I can shuffle my opponents deck. I riffle shuffle my cards hard mostly as a psychological effect before I go to shuffle theirs just to see if they are going to freak out when they think I am going to riffle shuffle theirs like I did mine. If I know it will bother a person I will let them know that I am riffle shuffling their deck or they can take a game loss it is their choice before I touch their cards. If they tell me no I always call a judge, it is not me being a dick it is me making sure my opponents...
It has everything to do with you being a dick.


making sure my opponents cards are sufficiently randomized, a pile shuffle or other types of shuffles are not sufficient randomization. Even machine shufflers use a variation of the riffle shuffle, actually it is the rule in many casinos to require black jack dealers to riffle shuffle a min of 4 times to ensure proper randomization.
If you are really into math here is a paper on the probabilities involved in shuffling.
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~chance/teaching_aids/Mann.pdf
according to the paper to perfectly randomize a deck it takes 128 perfect riffle shuffles... good thing that is not required.
Where not in a Casino.

You are (ab)using the rules in such a way that it has nothing to do with players etiquette.

so then again:


That's a pretty inconsiderate way to behave.

[Megadeus]

Yeah if you are holding riffle shuffling over your opponents heads and saying let me riffle shuffle or lose, then that is you being a colossal douche fuck. A pile shuffle or 5-10 mash shuffles is perfectly fine.

[Esper3k]

Also keep in mind that if you're a dick and insist on riffle shufing your opponent's deck, that very easily falls under Unsporting Conduct which can go from warning to Game Loss pretty quickly depending on how much you want to piss off a judge about it.

[MirrorMask]

Also be careful of you opponents' flying kicks and punches when they believe that you ruin their deck. Not to mention what will happen if you actually ruin it. Get ready to empty your pockets by $1500-3000. Who would be the tough guy then?


P.s To my knowledge, the rules DO NOT specify the way of shuffling. Therefore you are NOT allowed to riffle shuffle if they don't want to. Their deck is NOT your property by any means. Whatever you do you need permission to do it.

[JDK]

Some people here seem to misunderstand some basic things:

Cutting a deck doesn't work against stacking (or moving a card on top or whatever). You can pretty easily take cutting into account when cheating in that way. So this goes both ways and therefore isn't a valid argument against shuffling.

You are free to try to cheat, but be ready to be caught and face the consequences. If you think someone cheated, call a judge. Moving a specific card involves peeking or marked cards, which is forbidden anyway. I watch people shuffling my deck, always. You are welcome to give me byes.

If you don't want to play according to the rules, don't play tournament magic. Shuffling is required and so is caution when shuffling (other people's) cards. Deny a shuffle? Judge call. Riffle shuffle despite me asking you not to? Judge call...and eternal hate (and I am neither small nor fat).

[Lord Seth]

I riffle shuffle my deck a lot and I really do not see the cards as having become bent or anything due to it. I don't get where all the aversion to it comes from.

[Lemnear]

Seems like no one ever suffered a sharp bend FBB Dual just because a 16-year-Old kid tries to act cool and attempt to riffle bridge. Just try to kindly get back 200€ from a jackass-kid just by asking. I had to convince him. Thank god I'm the type of guy you don't want to mess with only to riffle my deck.

[theBloody]

From MTG tournament rules:

Once the deck is randomized, it must be presented to an opponent. By this action, players state that their decks are legal and randomized. The opponent may then shuffle it additionally. Cards and sleeves must not be in danger of being damaged during this process. If the opponent does not believe the player made a reasonable effort to randomize his or her deck, the opponent must notify a judge. Players may request to have a judge shuffle their cards rather than the opponent; this request will be honored only at a judge’s discretion.

If they try to riffle your deck without your agreement, just slap them.
On serious note, call a judge. /thread

[syfilisx]

I work with mentally handicapped people and find topic misleading and offensive, I have not seen any of them riffle shuffle.

[Lemnear]

I work with mentally handicapped people and find topic misleading and offensive

You're a pro player? ;)

[swoop]

He's a judge.

on aspiren

[cdr]

Also keep in mind that if you're a dick and insist on riffle shufing your opponent's deck, that very easily falls under Unsporting Conduct which can go from warning to Game Loss pretty quickly depending on how much you want to piss off a judge about it.

Not true. Damaging your opponent's deck might fall under unsporting - if the opponent could prove it was being damaged - but riffle shuffling is not automatically damaging and not remotely illegal. It certainly does not "easily" fall under unsporting.

I've been riffle shuffling for 15+ years, and I have duals 15+ years old that have zero shuffling damage.

It is reasonable to expect your opponent not to damage your deck, it is not reasonable to expect your opponent to shuffle exactly the way you want them to.

I'm also disappointed in some of the language used in the title and the thread - "retard" is a legitimately offensive slur. Come up with some more creative insults.

[nedleeds]

Some people here seem to misunderstand some basic things:

Cutting a deck doesn't work against stacking (or moving a card on top or whatever). You can pretty easily take cutting into account when cheating in that way. So this goes both ways and therefore isn't a valid argument against shuffling.

If you believe your opponent is cheating you should call a judge. You shouldn't try to 'unstack' his deck; that's actually cheating also.

[Bobmans]

I'm also disappointed in some of the language used in the title and the thread - "retard" is a legitimately offensive slur. Come up with some more creative insults.

Between all facts and nonsense you do have empathy. How come you don't have empathy for people not feeling comfortable with other people riffle shuffling their decks?

[mini1337s]

Between all facts and nonsense you do have empathy. How come you don't have empathy for people not feeling comfortable with other people riffle shuffling their decks?
There is a difference between an entitled cunt ranting about cardboard being damaged and someone who was born mentally handicap.

[JDK]

If you believe your opponent is cheating you should call a judge. You shouldn't try to 'unstack' his deck; that's actually cheating also.
That's what I said in my post....

[cdr]

Between all facts and nonsense you do have empathy. How come you don't have empathy for people not feeling comfortable with other people riffle shuffling their decks?

I do have sympathy for people concerned about their cards getting damaged, but eternal players sometimes tend to blow things out of proportion when it comes to handling cards. I look at things first and foremost from the point of view of a tournament official, and decks being sufficiently randomized and cheating being discouraged is the first priority for me. Playing in competitive tournaments does necessarily involve other people occasionally touching your cards and does involve the chance that cards can get damaged. This is perhaps more unfortunate as valuable as eternal cards are, but something you have to face if you want serious eternal tournaments.

[MirrorMask]

Well, yes they are required to shuffle but there are many ways to do it correctly. You don't have to riffle shuffle, which, if done by a moron, CAN RUIN your cards and then you will have to make him pay for them (not as easy as it sounds).

[nedleeds]

That's what I said in my post....

Well you mentioned and advocated a shuffling methodology to prevent stacking, or alleviate it's consequences. I'm saying you shouldn't even touch your opponents deck if they are stacking - you should call a judge. It's not your job to randomize your opponents deck it is your opponents.




G.6. Failure to Sufficiently Randomize a Deck

A player has not performed sufficient actions to suitably randomize his or her deck prior to presenting the deck to an opponent.

Note: At the judge's discretion, this violation may also be enforced against players who shuffle their decks face up. This penalty does not apply to deck stacking or other deck manipulation that is considered cheating (see section J.4).



Call a judge. It's not your fucking job to randomize. End of story.

[JDK]

No, I didn't. I just said cutting doesn't do the trick against stacking. In the same post I advised to call a judge if something is fishy. Mkay.

Also: Stacking and insufficient shuffling aren't the same.

[saspook]

I'm also disappointed in some of the language used in the title and the thread - "retard" is a legitimately offensive slur. Come up with some more creative insults.

But not disappointed or offended enough to change the title?

[Oiolosse]

99% of ppl will respect you when ask them to not riffle shuffle. This thread is dumb

[cdr]

But not disappointed or offended enough to change the title?

Would have if I could; I have mod powers in CI&R only.

[Braves54321]

Would have if I could; I have mod powers in CI&R only.

Changed the title of the thread, now less offensive.

-braves

[troopatroop]

#Braves #SteveNorm #Imissyou

[kombatkiwi]

The rules state I can shuffle my opponents deck I know assholes who will riffle shuffle the fuck out of other peoples cards just to piss people off, at least I am gentle about it with other peoples cards. I riffle shuffle my cards hard mostly as a psychological effect before I go to shuffle theirs just to see if they are going to freak out when they think I am going to riffle shuffle theirs like I did mine.

If I know it will bother a person I will let them know that I am riffle shuffling their deck or they can take a game loss it is their choice before I touch their cards. If they tell me no I always call a judge, it is not me being a dick it is me making sure my opponents cards are sufficiently randomized, a pile shuffle or other types of shuffles are not sufficient randomization. Even machine shufflers use a variation of the riffle shuffle, actually it is the rule in many casinos to require black jack dealers to riffle shuffle a min of 4 times to ensure proper randomization.

If you are really into math here is a paper on the probabilities involved in shuffling.

http://www.dartmouth.edu/~chance/teaching_aids/Mann.pdf

according to the paper to perfectly randomize a deck it takes 128 perfect riffle shuffles... good thing that is not required.
Riffle Shuffling is also just as open to manipulation as overhand shuffles or pile shuffling r.e. stacking and once you start doing perfect riffle shuffles you are essentially pile shuffling because you're taking each card and inserting it into a known spot in the deck. It's a commonly known magicians/sharks fact that if you take a 52 card deck and perfectly riffle/faro it 8 times then it resets back to the order it was in when you started.

If you're not convinced by that then surely you know that you can achieve the same 'split the deck and then alternate the stacks' riffle effect using the side-mash technique: this is easy to do when playing with sleeves and has a far lower likelihood of actually damaging the cards.

So basically you're just being a dick

EDIT I skimmed through that PDF and it's rubbish. A lot of the maths is quite interesting (especially the part towards the end when it connects riffle shuffles and markov chains), but with statements like "It turns out that the game will end much more than half the time with pile A being full, i.e the deck is not randomized 'enough'." it's pretty clear that whoever wrote it is failing to see the wood for the trees.