[Deck] 8Tezz.dec - UB Tezzeret

[Undomian]

This might be a stupid question, but I am fairly new to the deck, so bear with me. I was wondering what to helm of Obedience is for, as I don't see a way to actually deck the opponent in most decks http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=66558 like this one for instance. I don't have much experience with the deck, so any responses are greatly appreciated, I will hopefully start reading the primer today if I have the free time, but the explanations on Helm or any other general advice about the deck is, again, greatly appreciated.

As you play the deck more, you'll start to notice that people will often side in Rest in Peace against us as a way to shut off Thopter/Sword. Helm is a miser's out to that, allowing us to win on the spot against an unprepared opponent.

[TheYoungster]

As you play the deck more, you'll start to notice that people will often side in Rest in Peace against us as a way to shut off Thopter/Sword. Helm is a miser's out to that, allowing us to win on the spot against an unprepared opponent.

Ok, so you board it in against decks like D&T, Miracles, UWR devler, or any white deck that shows it in game 2 (assuming you won game 1)?

[Undomian]

Basically.

[TheYoungster]

Basically.

K, thanks a ton.

[OCPunisher]

Hey all, just wanted to check in with a weekly TO from last night.

First, my list:
4 Baleful Strix
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Dimir Signet
3 Talisman of Dominance
3 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
2 Ensnaring Bridge

4 Force of Will
2 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Transmute Artifact
2 Damnation

2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Seat of the Synod
3 Darkslick Shores
3 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
1 Academy Ruins
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors

Side:
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Helm of Obedience
3 Lodestone Golem
1 Trinisphere
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Cursed Totem
1 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Tezzeret the Seeker

I was trying to avoid all of the toolbox-y one-of's in favor of a more streamlined approach. I really didn't like a lot of the silver bullets and I was winning games off Thopter/Sword, so more copies of the actual win-con seemed like a good idea. The Lodestone Golems were a late addition because I saw three burn decks and two Elves decks in the room.

Matches were against burn (W 2-0), 4-color Delver (W 2-0), the mirror (L 0-2), and BUG Delver (W 2-1).

Round 1, against a fairly new player who was just breaking into Legacy, and doing so in the easiest way possible. He still had cards like Magma Jet and Searing Blood (yes, that one) in his board because he hadn't found enough Bridges or whatever the real cards were.
- Game 1, I mulled to four. My 7 was Jace, Thirst, another three-drop, and four lands. My 6 and my 5 were both one-landers. Anywho, he proceeded to do his thing for a few turns, but eventually started flooding out pretty hard (I think I saw 8 basics on his side when it was over). By about turn 5 or 6, I was finally able to land a Chalice on one, then I followed it with a Chalice on three (Rift Bolt, Vortex), then I managed to rip a Thopter Foundry to pair with the Sword of the Meek I had run out much earlier. The final straw this game was when I was at 10 life and had Thopter combo out. He cast two Searing Blazes with landfall, plus a Fireblast for what would have been lethal, except that my untapped Ancient Tomb could tap for black off the singleton Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth so that I could make one more Thopter and stabilize at one life.
- Game 2 was not close. Turn 2 Strix, turn 3 Lodestone Golem, turn 4 Lodestone Golem were way too much to handle.

Round 2 was against 4-color Delver. I admit that my notes from this game were not very good, but I do remember him loathing all the Chalice of the Voids in the room (2 Tezzeret decks and one MUD Stax).
- Game 1, I mulled to six and he mulled to five. My hand had double Strix, which was more than enough for the two Delvers he wasn't able to flip for several turns. Eventually, I found Thopter combo for the win.
- Game 2, he opened with a nutty draw on the play and crushed me. I remember a very early Delver, then a Young Pyromancer, then I took about 10 damage and died.
- Game 3, I had a turn 2 Chalice on one, and eventually found enough Thopters to win.

Round 3 was against the other Tezzeret player. This wasn't a very exciting match. In both games, he resolved more than one planeswalker, and I did not, so he won them both.

Round 4, against BUG Delver.
- Game 1, I think I mulled down to four again. He had a Deathrite Shaman on turn 1 that did a lot of early work. He followed it with a Hymn and then a True-Name Nemesis. He also had the Abrupt Decay for my Bridge.
- Game 2 was pretty epic. He managed to get an early Deathrite again, eventually followed by a Hymn, a Goyf a Jitte, a TNN, a Sylvan Library, and a Liliana. However, I was able to find and cast two Bridges AND assemble Thopter combo to stabilize. He died to at least nine Thopter tokens with all of the above permanents still on the table.
- Game 3, I had a turn 0 Leyline of the Void that shut off his Deathrite Shaman, then a turn one Chalice, then a Trinisphere, then I even ripped my Helm off the top on turn 5 or 6 for the win.

The question I was trying to answer last night was whether or not it was better to run the silver bullets or more copies of the core combo pieces. Honestly, I think there's room for both in my list.
- I'm putting the fourth Polluted Delta in my list for sure. The only time I ever cast Jace, I needed to Brainstorm, and I was never able to shuffle away the garbage.
- Ensnaring Bridge was once again an all-star.
- Thirst for Knowledge was awful. The card draw was fine, but at three mana it was in a clunky spot on the curve.
- The only time I drew Damnation, it was rotting in my hand. I still like the card, but it's probably better in the board. Not sure how it compares to Toxic Deluge, but I feel like paying life to wrath away Goyfs is miserable.
- Lodestone Golem was also quite solid for me. It's basically the same effect as Thalia, except it beats harder and works better in multiples.
- Still haven't seen my Cursed Totem yet.
- The other Tezz player had a copy of Witchbane Orb in his board. Had I remembered that card, it would certainly have been in my board as well (probably for that last Tezzeret that I threw in right before the start).

Next week, my list will probably be something like this:
-1 Island
+1 Polluted Delta

-2 Thirst for Knowledge
+2 Tezzeret the Seeker

-1 Tezzeret the Seeker (side)
+1 Witchbane Orb (side)

Basically I'm gonna see if big Tezz is any good. I would have liked to try main-deck Lodestone Golems, but my blue count for Force of Will is already pretty low. On that note, if anyone has any good ideas for how to increase the blue card count in this deck, I'd love to hear them.

[Undomian]

If you're not liking Damnation in your meta and the thought of having to Deluge a goyf away makes you cringe a bit, you might want to try The Abyss in that slot. It works a lot like our planeswalkers in that once you cast it, it just sits there and accumulates value. Resolving that card is basically game over against any kind of Delver deck as long as you continue to play the game.

[Oops]

If people are splashing red in tez control, is mishra an option or too cute? As a 4 mana spell it lives through abrupt decays, has a body that can take a bolt, and will win you the game if left unchecked. It. Is 3 colors to cast which is tricky, but in a build that utilizes Dack, this seems good.

[Undomian]

If people are splashing red in tez control, is mishra an option or too cute? As a 4 mana spell it lives through abrupt decays, has a body that can take a bolt, and will win you the game if left unchecked. It. Is 3 colors to cast which is tricky, but in a build that utilizes Dack, this seems good.

Win you the game if left unchecked? Not really. Sure, I can tutor up another Foundry if I cast one, but wasn't the first one good enough anyway? Am I ever going to want to tutor up additional Chalices on zero? And, in the occasion where we're casting Signets or Talismans into this, we're already at 5 mana and don't need to have any more really. Sure, it's sweet as hell with Baleful Strix, and maybe you can get some value with Dack, but the rest of the time it seems like it would be a 4-mana do nothing.

That's not even considering how you might make room for the card... You would ideally want to replace an existing card near the top of the curve rather than shaving from the lower end of the curve (reducing numbers of the very things you want to be playing into this card seems less than ideal), and there is no way it is better than Tezzeret or Jace.

I could be missing something, but Mishra just seems bad.

[The Duressed]

How is the Shardless BUG matchup with this deck? I read the primer and took note of the key cards, but there isn't much info as far as approximate percentages. Any thoughts?

[Undomian]

How is the Shardless BUG matchup with this deck? I read the primer and took note of the key cards, but there isn't much info as far as approximate percentages. Any thoughts?

That matchup is very draw dependent. We have a lot of cards and plays in our deck that they just can't beat, but they are trying to get to the same point in the game that we are and can do a lot of stuff we can't beat. Baleful Strix is both a blessing and a curse here, as it blocks their Tarmogoyf and also makes it really big. Liliana also sucks.

On the flip side, they basically can't ever beat The Abyss, and a turn 2 planeswalker is nuts here.

Overall I'd say we're slightly disadvantaged but I wouldn't say that it is an AWFUL matchup.

[OCPunisher]

I took a Tezzeret deck to the SCG Legacy IQ in Glendale, WI this past weekend, and unfortunately met with some hard times, going 2-3-1 in Swiss. I beat Esper Stoneblade, lost to fair Junk (a horrid matchup), drew with my buddy playing burn, beat Infect, lost to BUG Delver, and lost to another buddy playing Miracles with too many Council's Judgments. Both Gaddock Teeg and Council's Judgment are horrible cards for me, but I digress.

On the way home from that event, my carmates and I were discussing all things Legacy, and one thing that came up in discussion was how much work the singleton Trading Post did for me in my match against BUG Delver. It also occurred to me that I really hated Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Every match I had him, he either sat in my hand and rotted (either because Teeg was in play or I had other things to cast, or the double-blue mana cost was a problem). When he did come down, he did very little work. I never once wanted to Brainstorm with Jace because I was too busy hiding under a Bridge, and I only bounced one Batterskull germ in match one.

So, the epiphany I had was to cut my three Jaces in favor of three Trading Posts. In theory, three out of the four modes on the Post were extremely relevant to what I wanted to do with the deck, and even making a Goat token has its merits once in awhile. Anyone else ever tried this, or thought about trying it?

[Undomian]

I took a Tezzeret deck to the SCG Legacy IQ in Glendale, WI this past weekend, and unfortunately met with some hard times, going 2-3-1 in Swiss. I beat Esper Stoneblade, lost to fair Junk (a horrid matchup), drew with my buddy playing burn, beat Infect, lost to BUG Delver, and lost to another buddy playing Miracles with too many Council's Judgments. Both Gaddock Teeg and Council's Judgment are horrible cards for me, but I digress.

On the way home from that event, my carmates and I were discussing all things Legacy, and one thing that came up in discussion was how much work the singleton Trading Post did for me in my match against BUG Delver. It also occurred to me that I really hated Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Every match I had him, he either sat in my hand and rotted (either because Teeg was in play or I had other things to cast, or the double-blue mana cost was a problem). When he did come down, he did very little work. I never once wanted to Brainstorm with Jace because I was too busy hiding under a Bridge, and I only bounced one Batterskull germ in match one.

So, the epiphany I had was to cut my three Jaces in favor of three Trading Posts. In theory, three out of the four modes on the Post were extremely relevant to what I wanted to do with the deck, and even making a Goat token has its merits once in awhile. Anyone else ever tried this, or thought about trying it?

I've tried one Trading Post in the past and liked it in some matchups, so it could be worth testing. The card is really good in grindy matchups, and I've even won a storm matchup off the lifegain. Let us know how that goes for you if you try it.

[Darkenslight]

I'd consider making a change, if it were necessary, of dropping all the JtMS, and playing 2 Trading Post and a meta-dependent card that's searchable, such as Engineered Explosives.

[OCPunisher]

I'd consider making a change, if it were necessary, of dropping all the JtMS, and playing 2 Trading Post and a meta-dependent card that's searchable, such as Engineered Explosives.

My current list runs 4 Tezz/3 Jace, plus one Post in the board. I'd cut all three Jace for three Posts. I'd also probably start playing more Thirst for Knowledge again, since Post can get back the things I pitch to it.

[The Duressed]

Seems like an omission to talk about planeswalkers and cards with similar abilities and not talk about Liliana. The cost being BB is somewhat prohibitive considering transmute is UU, but I could envision scenarios where Liliana is the perfect compliment to this deck. What do you think?

[Darkenslight]

Seems like an omission to talk about planeswalkers and cards with similar abilities and not talk about Liliana. The cost being BB is somewhat prohibitive considering transmute is UU, but I could envision scenarios where Liliana is the perfect compliment to this deck. What do you think?

The problem with Liliana is that she can't really deal with specific threats with any consistency. That isn't to say the LotVeil isn't good. My instinct is that it will test less well than JtMS, due to the increased mana requirement load in the early game. For example, looking at OCPunisher's list, you want :2: on the first turn, and :u: :ub: on the second turn. Adding :b: :b: on the second turn as well just strins the manabase a little too strongly, IMO.

[The Duressed]

But is that really accurate? Let's look at things from the other angle - what does the current stock mana base support? The only lands that tap for exactly one color of mana are:

1-2 Island
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

If there's any color bias here, it's very slight. That's not to say that you wouldn't develop one over the course of a game - if you're playing 3 Jace, 3 transmute, and 2 Tezz Seeker, you're obviously going to fetch the basic island over the basic swamp. However, my point is that you could put yourself in a position to have :ub::b: on turn two just as easily as :ub::u:.

[Bobmans]

The red splash with Dack Fayden is really cool, but i have been thinking about a white splash instead enabling:

Enlightened Tutor
Obviously this card fits the plan fetching the artifacts required or even fetch The Abyss.

Venser, the sojourner
All abilities have it's uses.
+2 "resets" other planeswalkers, removes a Ensnaring Bridge so you can keep attacking or a Grafdigger's Cage so you can search with a tutor or a Transmute Artifact.
-1 attack (for lethal) while the opponent still has creatures in the field.
-8 (ulti). Might be far fetched or win more, but it seems pretty powerfull.

Any thoughts?

[trollking21]

The red splash with Dack Fayden is really cool, but i have been thinking about a white splash instead enabling:

Enlightened Tutor
Obviously this card fits the plan fetching the artifacts required or even fetch The Abyss.

Venser, the sojourner
All abilities have it's uses.
+2 "resets" other planeswalkers, removes a Ensnaring Bridge so you can keep attacking or a Grafdigger's Cage so you can search with a tutor or a Transmute Artifact.
-1 attack (for lethal) while the opponent still has creatures in the field.
-8 (ulti). Might be far fetched or win more, but it seems pretty powerfull.

Any thoughts?

Enlightened tutor fights with the chalice of the void, so it seems like a no-go, it also hurts if they counter the card you searched for.

Venser seems slightly more interesting but I doubt he does enough for a 5 mana spell. The question is is he better then tezzeret the seeker at that mana cost.

[Sisyphos]

Played two small tournaments with the deck.

List for the first one:

4 baleful strix
4 force of will
3 transmute artifact
2 tezzeret the seeker
3 jace, the mind sculptor
4 tezzeret, agent of bolas
1 sword of the meek
2 thopter foundry
2 ensnaring bridge
1 wurmcoil engine
1 ratchet bomb
1 trinisphere
4 talisman of dominance
4 chalice of the void
2 dimir signet
1 academy ruins
1 darkwater catacombs
1 island
1 seat of the synod
1 swamp
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
2 darkslick shores
3 city of traitors
3 underground sea
4 ancient tomb
4 polluted delta

1 phyrexian revoker
1 helm of obedience
3 toxic deluge
4 leyline of the void
2 flusterstorm
2 lodestone golem
2 trinisphere

Results:
ANT 2-0 (might have been 2-1)
UW 1-1-1 (Jace, TNN, lots of counters, no Delver, no Miracles)
Miracles 0-2
Stoneblade 1-1-1

For the second tournament I expected a less combo heavy field, so I changed the list a bit:
Main: -1 Trinisphere +1 The Abyss
Board: -2 Flusterstorm + 1 Damnation + 1 Phyrexian Revoker

Results:
ANT 2-0
Jund Depths 2-1
MUD 2-0
PlaneswalkerControl (?) ID (Jace, TNN, Elsepth, Lili, Deed)
T4:
MUD 2-0
ANT 1-2

Didn't take any notes, so I can't give much details on the matches. Anybody got any fixed boarding plans against decks like Miracles or Stoneblade? Haven't found one that has me completely convinced, I'm still pretty much improvising it.

[kingtk3]

Against miracle, basing on your sideboard, I would side as follow:
IN - revoker, helm, lodestone, flusterstorm
OUT - trinisphere, 2 talisman, foundry, sword

My reasoning is that they will bring in rest in peace to fight the thopter, so you can take advantage by siding the combo out and bring the helm in to exploit their side.
Golems are hard beaters that are safely out the counterbalance lock and they force them to leave in removals which are almost Dead against us.

Revoker is for top or Jace, if the situation calls for it, and flusterstorms are for counter wars.

Out go two talismans because against a control deck we prefer business instead of speed (granted they could be two strix if you experience mana issues); for the same reason trinisphere is out, since the game will go on enough for it to not matter.

Basically try to deploy a planeswalker and build enough card advantage to win the game. If you manage to stick a bridge you're almost in good shape.

[Ellomdian]

Seems like an omission to talk about planeswalkers and cards with similar abilities and not talk about Liliana. The cost being BB is somewhat prohibitive considering transmute is UU, but I could envision scenarios where Liliana is the perfect compliment to this deck. What do you think?

Believe it or not, Liliana gets discussed quite frequently. The biggest problem with her from an abstract standpoint is that the 'discount' of 1 colorless just makes your Colorless sources that much worse. You can certainly T2 Liliana off of a T1 signet, but you are left with an extra mana and nothing useful to do with it (this deck DESPISES! 1 mana spells.) You've committed between 6 and 8 slots to ramping to your walker, and you end up with a card that is (at least in theory) less powerful than a JTMS.

On a more practical note, I don't like discarding cards. Because you don't have Brainstorm, going down a card is a big deal (which is why I usually side out FoW in grindy matchups) and I am running both TFK and Staff now.


Played two small tournaments with the deck... Anybody got any fixed boarding plans against decks like Miracles or Stoneblade? Haven't found one that has me completely convinced, I'm still pretty much improvising it.

You have to treat both matchups separately; Miracles is actually a long-game grindy control deck against you, while Stoneblade is typically much more of a midrange matchup. Chalice is good against both, but I don't like 3-sphere against Miracles (whereas it's quite good against Stoneblade.) Lodestone is great against both. I actually side out of Thopter/Sword a lot against both decks and just push a JTMS or Tezz win through. Also, just turning a Signet into an early 5/5 when they board out Swords is really, really strong. I also typically don't board into Damnation (and will often take it out) against Miracles - if they are in a position to cast Entreat, they are usually in a position to protect it.

New Business - I have played around with replacing the Staff with a Coercive Portal; It comes down at least a turn sooner, and it is easier to Transmute into. Also, I have been testing casually with 1x Batterskull in the main; being able to turn a Strix (or something animated with Tezz) into a Lifelinking Vigilance beast is pretty sweet, and you have enough ways to find it that I don't think you need more than the singleton. I've been quite pleased with it against new Burn (as opposed to my other ideas like Sun Droplet and Elixir of Immortality...) as the old plan of Chalice for 1, GGz! has been disrupted by them printing a sweet new flame rift and but more players adopting cards like Hellspark. Also, being able to put a single card onto an open gamestate (instead of requiring both Foundry and Sword) makes topdeck wars that much stronger.

[Sisyphos]

I wasn't trying to suggest that Miracles and Stoneblade can be solved with the same boarding plan. I agree that they are different decks that attack your game plan from different angles and require different solutions. I just can't figure either of them out, that's why I listed them together. ;)

For example Miracles: The problem I have with boarding out Thopter/Foundry completely is: 90% of your deck now gets shut off by Counterbalance floating Jace. Especially if you board in Lodestone. What do you have as kill options after boarding? The usual seven Walkers costing 4, Lodestone costing 4, Helm costing 4, the only things that are live are Seeker or Transmute. I like the thread diversity of having Thopter/Foundry after boarding. It keeps them honest, gives you another angle of attacking (swarming) and a single Foundry forces them to dig for and cast RiP instead of shuffling it away with Brainstorm. I agree with cutting some of the combo, but not all copies. I also feel that the matchup has gotten worse with Council's Judgement. The reasoning from kingtk3, Bridge = good shape, is basically just begging for eot Entreat into Council on their turn.

As for Stoneblade, Council's Judgement does not offer them as much as it does for Miracles in this matchup, they had access to Vindicate before that. I just find it to be a difficult matchup between Discard, Counterspells and removal for stuff you get onto the board. Don't think there's one sideboard card to change that, but I was hoping one of you had the key I was missing. ;)

As for your suggestions: I have tried Coercive Portal in 12Post Mud for some time. My reasoning there was that you get 4 Mana very fast and it can be basically the equivalent of Dark Confidant in that deck, drawing an extra card each turn to prevent you from running out of gas. It worked sometimes, but overall it still felt a bit lackluster. In this deck, my gut reaction without testing would probably be rather skeptical. I guess in the Stompy-esque version I tried out some time ago, I could see it, but in the stock list I played the past weeks, I was so often hiding behind Bridge just to stay alive, that drawing extra cards would have killed me instead of helping me. If I had a slot open, I guess I'd prefer something like Trading Post for the additional utility over drawing a guaranteed card every turn. But maybe it's just the right thing for grindy control match-ups were you can run out of gas, please post about how it works out for you. Have to admit, I have never played Staff of Nin and can't say that I even considered it, how has that been for you? 1 damage kills so few things nowadays.

Batterskull is really solid. It has been in and out of my lists for the reasons you mentioned. But then again, I feel like I'm the only one playing a Wurmcoil anymore, so I'm a bit biased for big lifelinking monsters. ;)

[Undomian]

My personal boarding plan (using the 76 in my signature) is basically always just -1 Crucible, +1 EE against Miracles, as I feel that my maindeck is very good against theirs even postboard. Stoneblade is a lot more fluid depending on the build, but it usually at least -2 Chalice, +1 Abyss, +1 Bridge. Extra Chalices are pretty miserable in that matchup, and this kind of matchup is exactly the reason that I'm playing The Abyss.

[Ellomdian]

90% of your deck now gets shut off by Counterbalance floating Jace.

90% of Legacy gets shut off when you let Miracles float cards with CounterTop. And, FWIW, JTMS is typically the only 4 drop they have in their deck, while most lists have a hell of a lot more 2's.

The 'plan' against Miracles is the same one it's been since the start (for me). Get a Chalice on 1, shut down 30% of their deck, or present a T2 walker (or Lodestone.) They have a really hard time executing without Brainstorm effects, since cards get stranded in their hand. Don't try to 'answer' the control deck - it's better at that than you are.

[Sisyphos]

Don't try to 'answer' the control deck - it's better at that than you are.

Maybe that's where my problems come from in this matchup and boarding for it. Guess I'm misinterpreting my role and trying to play a controlling game while I should be the beatdown to quote somebody whose name I can't recall at the moment. Will try to keep that in mind for the future. Thanks.

[kingtk3]

...The reasoning from kingtk3, Bridge = good shape, is basically just begging for eot Entreat into Council on their turn....


Against miracle, basing on your sideboard, I would side as follow:
IN - revoker, helm, lodestone, flusterstorm
OUT - trinisphere, 2 talisman, foundry, sword

My reasoning is that they will bring in rest in peace to fight the thopter, so you can take advantage by siding the combo out and bring the helm in to exploit their side.
Golems are hard beaters that are safely out the counterbalance lock and they force them to leave in removals which are almost Dead against us.

Revoker is for top or Jace, if the situation calls for it, and flusterstorms are for counter wars.

Out go two talismans because against a control deck we prefer business instead of speed (granted they could be two strix if you experience mana issues); for the same reason trinisphere is out, since the game will go on enough for it to not matter.

Basically try to deploy a planeswalker and build enough card advantage to win the game. If you manage to stick a bridge you're almost in good shape.

My reasoning was a little more complex than Bridge = good shape, it was mainly to next level their sideboarding: the bridge was only the icing on the cake since it protects our planeswalker.

Being Miracle THE control deck of the format you cannot expect to have a win-sure strategy postboard because of the nature of that deck: it is only about answers so it is natural that they can came up with a solution for your strategy ;)

However you should also consider the probability they find those cards in time: most lists play 2 entreats (3 at most) and 1-2 councils (plus 1-2 disenchant, I'd say 3 total) and have no way to tutor for them. And you can kill all their manipulation with a chalice@1. And you have counters too. It's not that the miracle player will always have the correct cards combination in hand.

[James]

Did 3-1 the other day on a MTGO Legacy daily with the following list (it is a different version - UBR):

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/244280#online

Surprisingly I lost 2-1 against Miracles (I say surprisingly because I have probably won 7 of my last 10 games against miracles). I think the game used to end with a turn 1/2 chalice on 1, without cantrips, swords to plowshares and Sensei, Miracles does nothing to do (at least against our deck) as we should win with a single resolved Tezzeret, Jace or Lodestone (I have even won games with just a couple of Baleful). Therefore, my strategy is try to resolve an early chalice, which means to side in any counters that are in the sideboard. I am also happy to cast a FoW on T1 if they cast a Sensei (this card is a pain). We should not be scared of Counterbalance combo as we play 4CC (they would need to find a Jace and keep it on top deck for the entire game).

My version is even better against Miracles as I play red including Dack Fayden (great for finding threats in the late game), Punishing Fire (kills jace, snapcaster, vendilion) and Abrupt Decay (it is easy to cast with the Grove of the Burnwillows and the 4 Mox Diamond).

Miracles is a tier 1 and we should assume that we will lost certain games but my opinion is that we are already well prepared for this match-up (Revoker or Pithing Needle are also really good sideboard options).

Best,

J.

[Ellomdian]

Did 3-1 the other day on a MTGO Legacy daily with the following list (it is a different version - UBR

Every single time I see a 3 (+) color list with Diamonds, I cringe - but I prefer the numerical consistency of the straight UB deck to beat out mulligans and card disadvantage.

Regardless,

Yes, Chalice on 1 T1/T2 is Big Game against Miracles. Any kind of taxing effect you have (Spheres, Golem) will break up a lot of their early efficiency and force them into Mono-U control role, a la Landstill of old.

[Undomian]

It's been awhile since this thread has seen the light of day, so I'll bring it back up I guess. Since fast combo seems to have (mostly) died off, at least in my area, I've been testing Misdirection again. With one in the main in place of a Force and one in the side, my BUG matchup seems to have gotten a little bit better. That one in the main might end up going back to a Force, though, if Treasure Cruise ends up being the real deal. It's a shame it's not a targeted spell. :frown:

I haven't actually done any testing with the card yet, but at first glance the card doesn't seem to be as great here as people say it is everywhere else. Even in the Mox Diamond builds, our graveyard doesn't really get stocked quickly due to our lack of cantrips and cheap spells. We do often have the mana available to actually pay for these cards, but at that point, I'd have to ask myself how valuable a (on average) 4 or 5 mana draw spell actually is. I might try out Dig Through Time (probably better than Treasure Cruise here because card quality is much more important than quantity in a deck like this) in the deck sometime to see if the card is worth it, but I don't see that being the case.

[Sisyphos]

My thoughts (only thoughts, no testing so far):
Dig is better then Cruise for the deck if such an effect is playable. I would probably start testing with 1-2 copies, more as a late game refueling option to be cast once per game after grinding, as we do not run the cantrip numbers Delver decks have. Where stuff gets more interesting in my opinion is the Helm/Leyline-Combo that I have used continuesly as a boarding plan up to now. It was always a very good alternative for me after boarding and I even contemplated putting it main in the meta I play in (lots of ANT and Delver). If Delve puts even more of an emphasis on graveyard strategies, we have a very good plan to handle it.

[Sisyphos]

Guess I'll double post if no one else is still playing the deck. :wink:

As Delvecestral is getting more and more play in addition to traditional graveyard dependent strategies, I ran with the idea I posted about in a small local tournament. List:

4 baleful strix
4 force of will
3 transmute artifact
2 tezzeret the seeker
4 leyline of the void
4 tezzeret, agent of bolas
1 sword of the meek
2 thopter foundry
2 ensnaring bridge
1 helm of obedience
1 trinisphere
4 talisman of dominance
4 chalice of the void
2 dimir signet
1 academy ruins
1 darkwater catacombs
1 island
1 seat of the synod
1 swamp
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
2 darkslick shores
3 city of traitors
3 underground sea
4 ancient tomb
4 polluted delta

1 meekstone
1 pithing needle
4 toxic deluge
1 engineered explosives
2 flusterstorm
2 lodestone golem
2 trinisphere
1 batterskull
1 cursed totem

Results:
Miracles (with DTT) 2-1
Deathblade (with TC) 2-1
Food Chain 2-0
Burn ID for a split of 1st/2nd.

Board is basically a thrown together pile, do not copy. Leyline/Helm main were insane all day and won me the majority of games. In parts this might be deceiving though. It's just a lot easier to execute and assemble and also a lot quicker than the alternatives once the board is locked up, so it was the kill I went for most often. Never missed the Jaces. Nobody cast a Delve spell against me all day. :smile: The Leyline/Helm adds a new aspect to the deck. Several games that went into grind mode just ended with a topdecked tutor into Helm. All previous win-cons require several turns to execute and thus can be more easily disrupted. It's a nice piece of tech against a large part of decks at the moment and even against decks not using their yards you simply have an "Oops, I win"-button.

[Mortox]

I think the Void+Helm is conceptually strong right now with all the DTT and TC hype and I'm happy to hear you've had some initial success with your deck. I dusted off the UB Tezz on MTGO and made a few changes, put in the 4 Leyline+Helm and have been playing around with it. So far the one thing I've noticed is that it feels a little clunkier than the non-Leyline version, particularly when you're relying on Bridge and end up drawing 1-2 Leyline midgame, haven't been digging that so far.

Infect has also been a bit of a problem once they get a Blighted Agent out since their deck can basically ignore Bridge and as long as they counter Chalice I felt like the decks ability to interact with them was pretty low. Then again I was only running 2 Deluge in the side, more might help. Too bad there wasn't a Propaganda-like effect that was an artifact, although I guess I could just run some Propagandas although that has less synergy with Tezz/Transmute.

Anyway I think the deck is worth developing again; I believe DTT and TC are the real deal and we're going to be seeing a lot of them moving forward. Decks that can utilize graveyard hate maindeck are definitely going to gain some traction - I'll be looking into UB Tezz and GW Enchantress as options.

Edit: and I wonder if Thopter/Sword is still needed now that we're running the Leyline/Helm MD? I mean this deck already has some good options against most creature decks with the ability to tutor for Bridge and by hiding behind Strix so the chump/lifegain feature of Thopter is not necessarily appealing, and we can now win through Leyline+Helm or either Tezz beats/ultimate. Freeing up the 3 slots by dropping the 2 Thopter and 1 Sword might be worthwhile if we can find better inclusions to make the deck run more smoothly. Maybe adding more Trinisphere would be good in some of those slots, I'm almost never sad to see that card in my opening hand.

[Sisyphos]

Sure, drawing multiple Leylines is clunky. Not only in the midgame, but also in your opening hand. But as far as midgame is concerned, I don't mind it as much. If you look at my list, I cut mainly 4cc cards (3 Jace + 1 Trading post from my last list) for the combo. So the speed with which I can empty my hand in the midgame if I topdeck Leylines and need an active Bridge is not much lower than before. I know you loose the utility a topdecked Jace provides in those situations (Bounce attackers etc), but simply regarding the speed you get your hand size low, it should not matter that much.

I have been looking at that problem as well. The only options I came up with are Norn's Annex and Silent Arbiter. Both are not really good against the decks you want the effects against. Running enchantments is suboptimal, but it can work. Leyline has the same problem sometimes.

I don't think you can cut Thopter/Sword completely. Bridge has gotten less and less reliable in my experience. More decks can ignore or easily handle it: the new UR Swiftspear list, Infect, Miracles (Entreat+Council's Judgment), turning it from a complete lock into a praying contest. You also deal yourself a lot of damage and you need some kind of life gain to buy time and stabilize. This does not only come in huge against decks with reach, but can also come up against decks you don't expect it to. E.g. in one of the games I had against Food Chain, I locked up his Emrakul with Bridge no problem, but I would have died to triple DRS beats (!) without Thopter Foundry. I didn't even have a Sword, but just enough artifacts to sack to buy me the 2 turns I needed to combo kill him.

[Mortox]

@Sisyphos

Fair point regarding the CMC of Leyline vs the cards that were replaced, I suppose in hindsight I only tied in the comment about Bridge because it was subjectively relevant to the games where I was getting beat down and couldn't empty my hand enough to matter while at the same time drawing a dead card. After playing the deck more it hasn't felt like as much of an issue and the upside to running the 4 Leyline has definitely outweighed the downside.

I might have been a little hasty suggesting cutting Thopter/Sword; that combo has been relevant quite a few times now in testing, it plays well against the decks with value creatures (Clique, Bob, Young Pyro) by holding them back. Although I have cut to 1 Thopter and 1 Sword and been pretty happy with that so far with Academy Ruins to get back the Thopter should it get countered on the way down (although preferably it's brought into play off Transmute/Tezz.)

Right now my decks a bit of a pile but I'm getting a better feel for certain cards and their numbers. Like I said I dropped to 1 Thopter/1 Sword, I'm trying out 1 Propaganda and 1 Bridge (2 more Bridge in side), and 3 Trinisphere main. So far I feel like my games against most of the tempo Delver decks and various combo decks have been the most favorable. Had a few bad games against Infect as mentioned, and Miracles if they get the early CounterTop.

edit: I guess against decks like Infect, more Engineered Explosives could be good too.

[kingtk3]

Engineered plague can be effective against infect too

[Mortox]

Engineered plague can be effective against infect too

Yea I actually added one E.Plague to the side, has been useful so far against Goblin/Infect/Delver+YoungPyro decks.

[cschacal]

Hi there, I'm new to this kind of deck but after testing the classic UB Tezzeret with Chalice of the void I was tempted to try a different approach, more about control instead of trying to drop bombs with mana acceleration:

4 Goblin Welder
4 Baleful Strix
1 Painter's Servant
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Myr Battlesphere

1 Engineered Explosives
3 Mox Opal
4 Brainstorm
1 Grindstone
1 Pithing Needle
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Izzet Charm
2 Transmute Artifact
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Thirst of Knowledge
4 Tezzeret Agent of Bolas
4 Force of Will

1 Academy Ruins
2 Great Furnace
3 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Seat of the Synod
3 Underground Sea
2 Vault of Whispers
3 Volcanic Islands

Sideboard under construction:

2 Flusterstom
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
3 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Platinum Angel
2 Whipflare
1 Notion Thief
1 Dack Fayden
1 Thoughtseize

The izzet charms were 2 Dack Fayden at the beginning but after a few tests I think the charms are more valuable because of their versatility. I have not tested the deck in depth but it is very fun to play with and I just wanted to share it with you. The red color is a very powerful addition just for the welder and the blasts in the side. You can win with 5/5 artifacts, with the tezzeret ultimate or with the classic painter's servant/grindstone combo (you can also try the mindslaver combo here). Counterbalance is also an obvious addition but as I said before I have just started to develop it.

[Undomian]

A lot of what I'm about to say applies primarily to the Mox Diamond build I personally favor, but I guess it could apply elsewhere as well. Having played a bit more against the new(ish) breed of BGx lists packing Cruises, I'm not entirely sure the measures that I've been taking up to this point to combat that archetype are still sufficient. Before, playing a 1/1 split of Misdirection in the list along with a pair of Welders helped a quite a bit against those strategies, but now that they are adopting Cruise, I'm finding that they are able to find more Decays/Grips/etc. with more regularity. We could always beat some number of those cards before, but we only have so many answers to a crippling Abrupt Decay on a key permanent in our deck. This makes me wonder whether or not I should approach the situation with a more extreme attitude, and start playing a card that sucks for us but is unbeatable for them.

As has been shown time and time again, Blood Moon is a sick card against these BGx decks. I mentioned the Mox Diamond thing earlier mostly because that build actually plays red cards, but also because it gives the deck the capacity to lead on the same explosive Moon starts as something like Dragon Stompy. This isn't to say there aren't any negatives to this. We're not always going to have Mox Diamond/Blood Moon hands, and the card is a pretty shitty topdeck in a scenario where we are being eaten by Tarmogoyfs (though the same can be said of Welders in that case). Most importantly, though, it will also often lock us out of the game as well until we find another colored mana source. Using my personal list as a reference, we do have 9 actual colored mana sources in the deck at that point (8 if you count the one used to cast the moon initially, though I guess that could have been the Volcanic Island). Perhaps I'd need to rework my mana a bit to make Blood Moon work, but we at least have a better chance to dig out of the moon than any DRS/Liliana/Tarmogoyf deck would.

I'm going to do some testing with Moon in the board on MTGO this week (not a perfect test, though, since I won't buy Misdirection online) before I give it a run at a GPT this weekend, and will probably play something like this:

1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Blood Moon
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Misdirection
1 The Abyss
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Lodestone Golem

On a different note, I still haven't managed to test Dig Through Time. Does anyone have any experience with this card yet? I'm having a very difficult time deciding what they should replace, but it is probably just the third Jace (and maybe the third Foundry). Jace does win the game himself sometimes, but most of the time he just brainstorms until I find something else that wins the game a bit more quickly. Dig performs that function perhaps a little better than Jace does, which is my reasoning for that potential swap.


Hi there, I'm new to this kind of deck but after testing the classic UB Tezzeret with Chalice of the void I was tempted to try a different approach, more about control instead of trying to drop bombs with mana acceleration:

[Welder control list]

The izzet charms were 2 Dack Fayden at the beginning but after a few tests I think the charms are more valuable because of their versatility. I have not tested the deck in depth but it is very fun to play with and I just wanted to share it with you. The red color is a very powerful addition just for the welder and the blasts in the side. You can win with 5/5 artifacts, with the tezzeret ultimate or with the classic painter's servant/grindstone combo (you can also try the mindslaver combo here). Counterbalance is also an obvious addition but as I said before I have just started to develop it.

We've discussed the possibility of Chalice-less builds in the past, but it seems like Chalice is almost the reason to play a deck like this in the first place. Jared Boettcher played a list very similar to yours successfully at an SCG Invitational earlier this year, though, so the deck can certainly be good. Maybe you can look at his list for inspiration? Someone played the deck for awhile in my area, and it seemed pretty decent.

http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_grixis_painter_with_.html

[cschacal]

Thanks for the info Undomian. I'm not liking chalice builds because they seem pretty similar to the MUD archetype that needs explosiveness and do a lot of mulligans so I will continue testing the non-chalice versions... also welder seems too much powerful not to be an auto include.

[Undomian]

So after a week of testing on MTGO and a (small) GPT on Saturday, I can safely say that Blood Moon is pretty damn good. I kind of knew that going in, but actually having BUG opponents scoop a game to a single card is kind of nice. It is certainly a change from the long grind that those usually are. I have mixed feelings about Dig Through Time, and will probably put the third Foundry back in place of one of them. I was never able to cast two copies of it for three or less mana in a single game, and having to tap out lategame for that card kind of stinks when you need to be playing the cards you get off of it. It doesn't seem like many Source members are still playing this deck, but if anyone has any experiences with DTT/Cruise here, I'd still be interested in hearing them.

[GordonAndersson]

I am still playing this deck and only this deck, trying out new brews once every week. Right now I'm trying to play on DTT and still dont know what I think. I really appreciate your updates and plan to write an tournament report with my findings. I took home a really really small tournament yesterday with pretty much a stock list with some exceptions.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bobmans]

So after a week of testing on MTGO and a (small) GPT on Saturday, I can safely say that Blood Moon is pretty damn good. I kind of knew that going in, but actually having BUG opponents scoop a game to a single card is kind of nice. It is certainly a change from the long grind that those usually are. I have mixed feelings about Dig Through Time, and will probably put the third Foundry back in place of one of them. I was never able to cast two copies of it for three or less mana in a single game, and having to tap out lategame for that card kind of stinks when you need to be playing the cards you get off of it. It doesn't seem like many Source members are still playing this deck, but if anyone has any experiences with DTT/Cruise here, I'd still be interested in hearing them.

Sometimes i just go and do some brainfart on building this deck and the other day i tried playing a UBw list. It was very cool, as it had different angles of approach. In that list Transmute Artifact was actually underwhelming. The list played one step behind, but was able to pull itself out of it and win regardless. I really liked playing SDT as it was helping me outgrind my opponent (also stomping with a 5/5 SDT was funny). The MD Helm+RiP won me a game 1 against Patriot on turn 3. Opened with 2 Tombs, Fetch, ETutor and Rip and something in hand. T1 Tutor for Helm, T2 RiP, T3 Helm + activate. My opponent had a sketchy hand tho plus he wasn't expecting it so i caught him off guard. Also being able to tutor for The Abyss was really amazing. Followed on with Jace won me a couple of games aswell.
If i where to play this again i think i would cut the 2 Transmute's for the 4th Top and Counterbalance. Both where awesome, but i was not able to drop them consistantly.

2-1 Miracles
1-2 Patriot
2-0 Wizards MonoUcontrol
2-1 Reanimate

list:
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2 Transmute Artifact
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Baleful Strix
4 Mox Diamond
2 Dimir Signet
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry
1 The Abyss
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Rest in Peace
2 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Academy Ruins
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Trinisphere



As for the UBR list i have a couple of questions.

1. How are the Misdirections?

2. With 3 Thopter's and 1 Sword isn't a 3/2 or 2/1 split not better? I really like the combo, but having only a Thopter in play it is kinda useless.

3. How do you feel about the singleton Creeping Tar Pit? On paper it doens't seem to add something, but how is it in reality.

4. How and to what do you play the Lodestone Golems? I know that playing MUD dropping them T2 is really solid, but as a 2 off and in this deck specificly i don't see that happening to often when you want to. Also MUD play's Lightning Greaves and more taxing effect making the golems more effective.

[Undomian]

Sometimes i just go and do some brainfart on building this deck and the other day i tried playing a UBw list. It was very cool, as it had different angles of approach. In that list Transmute Artifact was actually underwhelming. The list played one step behind, but was able to pull itself out of it and win regardless. I really liked playing SDT as it was helping me outgrind my opponent (also stomping with a 5/5 SDT was funny). The MD Helm+RiP won me a game 1 against Patriot on turn 3. Opened with 2 Tombs, Fetch, ETutor and Rip and something in hand. T1 Tutor for Helm, T2 RiP, T3 Helm + activate. My opponent had a sketchy hand tho plus he wasn't expecting it so i caught him off guard. Also being able to tutor for The Abyss was really amazing. Followed on with Jace won me a couple of games aswell.
If i where to play this again i think i would cut the 2 Transmute's for the 4th Top and Counterbalance. Both where awesome, but i was not able to drop them consistantly.

2-1 Miracles
1-2 Patriot
2-0 Wizards MonoUcontrol
2-1 Reanimate

list:

<UBW Tezz List>

As for the UBR list i have a couple of questions.

1. How are the Misdirections?

2. With 3 Thopter's and 1 Sword isn't a 3/2 or 2/1 split not better? I really like the combo, but having only a Thopter in play it is kinda useless.

3. How do you feel about the singleton Creeping Tar Pit? On paper it doens't seem to add something, but how is it in reality.

4. How and to what do you play the Lodestone Golems? I know that playing MUD dropping them T2 is really solid, but as a 2 off and in this deck specificly i don't see that happening to often when you want to. Also MUD play's Lightning Greaves and more taxing effect making the golems more effective.


That UBW list is certainly interesting. Eschewing Chalice for Counter/Top can allow for more flexibility, but I wonder if some significant changes might have to be made to the deck in order to make the curve more Counterbalance friendly. Did you often find yourself able to counter your opponent's spells with the top 3 cards of the deck, or were you forced to draw off of Top pretty often? Also, how often did you run into drawing that maindeck Rest in Peace with pieces to Thopter/Sword on board? Did you find that having the maindeck bullet was worth the dissynergy there?

As for your questions:

1) My meta has a LOT of BUG variants in it, and Misdirection is pretty awesome there for obvious reasons. Because we have Chalice, one of the primary functions of Force of Will is as a protection spell. Misdirection works just as well as Force in that capacity, though it does obviously lose some ground in the combo matchups. If you have a lot of combo and a lot less Delver in your meta, the fourth Force is probably correct.

2) I like having the 3/1 split personally because I tend to play fast and loose with my Thopter Foundries. I will often purposefully run that card into a Daze or Pierce on turn 1 or 2 (it will get countered if they have the counter, most of the time) to clear the way for a more impactful spell, and I also tend to pitch that card to Force more than any other card. Having the third also allows me to pass one up on a Tezzeret activation in favor of something else, as I'm fairly likely to find another sometime soon after that. I did recently go down to 2 Foundries (in favor of another Dig Through Time), but I ran into multiple occasions during that short test period where I really missed having the third Foundry in my deck. Having 2 Sword of the Meek in the list would allow me to assemble the combo more quickly, I suppose, but the second sword is a completely dead draw whereas the second/third Foundry pitches to Force, at least. There are some games where I have a difficult time assembling the combo, but one just seems like the right number in my testing.

3) I think I can only recall one game in the past few months where the CIPT aspect of Creeping Tar Pit has really screwed me, and I would have most likely lost that game anyway. We can negate that a large percentage of the time with Mox Diamond, though, so it doesn't actually end up mattering that often. It doesn't add a ton to the deck, but it does help to apply pressure to opposing planeswalkers when you do have it. I don't think the card is good enough to play more than one of, but I like the ability to mise that it brings to the table.

4) I bring in LSG against spell-based combo and Miracles. We will often not be able to cast it until turn three, so you really shouldn't be keeping hands based on it unless you're playing against something like Omnishow where they have a reasonably tough time dealing with it. Some combination of LSG and Chalice will seal the game away against most spell-based combo decks, and in both the case of combo as well as against Miracles, it provides a quick clock (something that we usually lack) that they are often not prepared to deal with. It's nice to draw, sure, but more often I end up Transmuting for it, as it is the only thing in the deck that I can Transmute for that provides a heavy presence on an empty board.

[Bobmans]

..

Thank you for the answers. Some random thoughts with a cup of coffee:

Well, to be honest i never actually had both Top/Counterbalance in play. But nevertheless they both performed pretty well and SDT was MVP all day. I found that this deck goes in topdeckmode very often and SDT supports this better then any other card. On top of a active Tezzeret you can peel of needed cards even better. That said i want to try both SDT and CB as a 4-off. In the discussion wether to run CB vs Chalice i look at it this way: Chalice @ 1 will always counter CMC 1 spells, while Counterbalance might counter any spell. While without SDT it happens less often then wanted, it sure puts on a certain amount of pressure on the opponent. This is particularly strong in this deck, since this deck has so many different angles of attack that it is already hard for the opponent to pin-point an anti strategy and just looses to a different approach.

In one game (2 or 3) against Miracles i resolved Counterbalance and later Tezzeret, AoB. Then animated a Mox Diamond and attacked him 1 or 2 times. Somewhere during this event's he was searching (and thus wasting resources) to find some answer. He found Celestial Purge and tried to get rid of Tezz, but Counterbalance blind flipped a CMC 2 spell, which occurs in this deck quite often. Couple of turn later the Mox was removed, but Tezz ultimate was enough for Lethal.

I also must admit that i am not sure if the curve is solid enough to consistantly support SDT/CB, but i did feel a lot safer then (in my oppinion mediocre Chalice). This due to having access to both Sensei's Divining Top and Enlightened Tutor. Both cards where what i felt was missing in this deck.

Having dissynergy was actually not an issue. When i had a oppening hand with two parts of different combo's i could bait revomal/disruption in the weaker combo and then assemble the stronger one. Also having access to a E.Tutor solves the issue of missing pieces. On top of that, like i said earlier, having multiple angles of attack was really helping me out.

The Reanimate matchup was a weird one.
Game 1 against reanimate i had a sketchy hand and got mana screwed while he went for a T3 Griselbrand. I could prevent it T2 with FoW, but it wasn't enough.
Game 2 i board in 4x Leyline and the 2nd Bridge. So i open with Leyline, Fetch into Tundra and immidiatly go E.Tutor for Helm. (prevent spell pierce, daze. but tricky gambling into a discard). Having a Tomb and a City in hand i resolved it T3 and activated it.
Game 3 was interesting. Again i had Leyline, but i had problems getting mana color fixed even with a SDT (a mulligan was propably better, since i had a city and a tomb). He was also having problems finding a S&T so we played draw go. In the proces i was buidling a hand with 2 Jace, 1 Tezz, 2 FoW. Eventually i found the missing mana and played Jace. We both casted 2 FoW's and Jace resolved. So fatesealing began. In the meantime i was building up board presence and dropped a Tezz and had a Ensnaring Bridge and a Helm in hand and a animated artifact beat him to 4 (or so) while Jace had 13 counters. On his turn he eventually was able to cast a S&T into Griselbrand, but i dropped the Helm and EoT activated it. He passed the turn and i realised that i had 4 different ways of winning that turn.

I think that Misdirection will make the cut as a 1/1 split betweem MD/SB in my straight UB list along with a 3/1 split between Thopter/Sword for reasons mentioned.

Still i am not certain about Creeping Tar Pit, but it wouldn't hurt to test 1 instead of a Darkslick Shore in the UB list.

As for LGS, the times i played it in MUD against Miracles it was really strong. Somehow, between the shitload of mana Miracles tend to have, they have trouble playing thru a LGS. Also i found that a resolved Chalice really messes up they're game plan. I do not like Chalice against most decks, but this is one where it actually shines. Along with the Golem it might be a solid consideration.

With all this in my mind i am not sure wether to build UBr, UB or UBw. There still is something appealing about the UB list, although i really like E.Tutor + The Abyss.

Also i couldn't help noticing you don't play the Liquid Metal highjack, wasn't it working well for you?

Anyway, every time i am pondering about Tezzeret lists or playing it this tune of Skrillex (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJVmu6yttiw) is going thru my head.

[Undomian]

Thanks for all the info.



Also i couldn't help noticing you don't play the Liquid Metal highjack, wasn't it working well for you?

Liquidmetal Coating is powerful if you manage to get it online with Dack, sure, but that card is worse than useless without Dack in play. I think Dack is powerful enough as a Careful Study every turn, allowing us to find other cards that actually win the game.

[Ellomdian]

If BUG decks are giving you a problem, you should be boarding in Threats that cost more than 3 - They actually have a hard time dealing with Lodestone Golem, Wurmcoil is Solid, and Strix or Bridge +Ruins requires them to spend a Decay every turn to get through with Goyfs. I have 2 Mis-D's in the board that are auto-adds. Staff of Nin singlehandedly defeats Liliana. Hell, if you really want to go all out, Notion Thief makes their life miserable if it interrupts a single Brainstorm, let alone Cruise.

I feel like most of the problems that people have with BUG is trying to lean on Thopter/Sword too heavily. Typically you are going to win this matchup on the back of a Planeswalker. Also, I love keeping hands that are a metric-ton of mana and not much else - it makes their early disruption so bad. Nothing beats showing your opponent a fist full of signets and lands when they Thoughtseize.

[Bobmans]

Taking in account the information Undomain provided i decided to go for a UB list. Just finished putting together the cards and will be playing this for the next couple of weeks.
I going for the Crucible + Wasteland plan with 2 Lodestone Golem and 1 Trinisphere on the side to support/strengthen the wastelock effect.
I put 3 FoW/1 Misdirection MB and 1 FoW/1 Misdirection on the SB, but that FoW might also be a Vendilion Clique. Not sure yet.
If the Wastelock plan will fail throughout the next weeks i will swap it for 2nd Sword of the Meek, 2 Darkslick Shores and a 4th Tomb. Currectly i am going for a 3/3 split between Tomb and City because i was taking to much life loss from multiple Tomb's.
Also i prefer Engineered Explosives over Ratchet Bomb as it can come into play with either 0, 1 or 2 counters and blow-up during the same turn. But with Tezzeret the Seeker, Ratchet Bomb might be a better choice. Also not sure yet.
Apart from the singleton Dig Through Time, the rest of the list self explanatory:

4 Baleful Strix
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Tezzeret the Seeker
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2 Transmute Artifact
1 Dig Through Time
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 The Abyss
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Dimir Signet
2 Talisman of Dominance
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Academy Ruins
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Wasteland
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Helm of Obedience
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Lodestone Golem
SB: 1 Trinisphere
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Damnation
SB: 1 Misdirection
SB: 1 Force of Will

[sdematt]

How do you find the Abyss in this deck? I get the UBW builds, but are you just hoping to draw it?

-Matt

[Bobmans]

How do you find the Abyss in this deck? I get the UBW builds, but are you just hoping to draw it?

-Matt

The Abyss is such a good card, why not run it. I agree that "just hoping" to get it of the top is horrible. That's why i have been testing a build with E.Tutor, but i really can't figure a way to make it work better in a UB list.

Also i have tested a few rounds with the list and already i am starting to dislike Dig Through Time. My first thoughts about replacing this cards goes to either Intuition or Gifts Ungiven, especially the latter. Has anyone tried it?

Edit: or Lim-Dul's Vault for that matter

[Ellomdian]

How do you find the Abyss in this deck? I get the UBW builds, but are you just hoping to draw it?

-Matt

I am fine with 1-2 singletons (I am on Damnation over The Abyss) right now, but I am running 2 TfK and a Staff of Nin. Between JTMS, Strix, and the other draws, I see a lot of cards over the course of an 'average' game. Of course, I am not heavily Maindeck'd towards any particular matchup; if I felt like I needed more Anti-aggro, I could up the count (at the expense of stuff like MD Relic.)

I feel like too many people think they need to find an answer RIGHT NOW. There are not a lot of game situations where having the ability to Transmute up a Bridge won't buy you the time you need to find mass removal - sure, if your opponent is sitting on Decay, you are in trouble, but why have you been playing so passively that they feel like they can sit on a decay?

Don't forget, this is a deck that still has the opportunity to Jam T2 JTMS a considerable number of games. You will typically have 2 phases to games; you want to power out something very strong very early (Walkers, thopter sword) that requires near immediate answers from your opponent, and then if your opponent can immediately deal with it, follow up with a similar play 1-2 turns later.

Side Note: 1x Null Broach in the Board right now. People don't even know what to do :p

[Madmankevinx]

I haven't posted in here in a while, but I see that there is some questioning on how good The Abyss is in this deck again. I always run two copies. It does so much work in this deck its absolutely ridiculous. I always want to see one quickly, as it just buys us so much time, which is important when we don't have Ponder/Brainstorm to smooth out our draws. I don't want to go into all the mathematic tables and great length detailed discussion. Just try it for yourself.

[btm10]

You guys are on camera at Eternal Weekend (http://www.twitch.tv/cardtitan).

[ween]

Great interview

Edit: Grats on Top 8 Zach, rough last game

[Ellomdian]

So, I got the chance to play in a real event with 2x Sun Droplet in the board today, and it is the stone-cold nutter-butters against UR Tempo and Burn. It gives you more T1 plays (post board o/c) and just does work (also note, it means that Ancient Tomb activations aren't nearly as bad.)

Seriously, just absurd. I will post an updated 75 soon.

Also, watched the replay from Eternal weekend. Wooooo pimping the primer, now I'll have to update the front page :P

TY/GL Zach!

[Sisyphos]

Mwahahaha just saw the list. Gratz Zach! 59/60 of my last list. Guess I finally did something right :wink:

Edit: Just watched the R9 interview. Sounded like he had a lot of fun.^^ Hope he writes a report.

[Mapson]

He's planning to

[TMPWDobs]

Hi guys Zach Dobbin here I had a great time playing the deck at Eternal Weekend had some bad breaks in top 8 losing game one on mulligan to five. Then in game 2 the opponent having wear/tear to destroy bridge when I was hoping it would buy me some time.

It was great playing on camera 3 rounds in a row I really appreciate the love and support I received.

I would like to start my disguising my misplay on camera round 10 game 3. I incorrectly casted Tezz Agent of Bolas. I was very nervous playing on camera in a win in addition to being very fatigued of having been up for 14hrs and playing almost 11+ hrs of magic and in that I made mistake of playing Talisman when I meant to cast Signet when I casted Tezz myself my opponent and even the Judge thought I had a signet in play and what I did was a legal play. Thankful my friend noticed the mistake and informed the Judge this is something I encourage players to do if they are spectating a match and see something wrong I made an honest mistake and thankfully we were able to do a rewind. I would have hated to win off an illegal play and greatly thank my group of friends who noticed it and informed a judge. Thankful I was able to regain my composure after this mistake and go on to win the game clinching a spot in the top 8. I will post more of a tournament round by round report in the next few days I am gonna grab some sleep as I have had a little over 7 total hrs of sleep the last 2 days. Keep being awesome guys #TEAM TEZZ

[Myelectronicdays]

Hi guys Zach Dobbin here I had a great time playing the deck at Eternal Weekend had some bad breaks in top 8 losing game one on mulligan to five. Then in game 2 the opponent having wear/tear to destroy bridge when I was hoping it would buy me some time.

It was great playing on camera 3 rounds in a row I really appreciate the love and support I received.

I would like to start my disguising my misplay on camera round 10 game 3. I incorrectly casted Tezz Agent of Bolas. I was very nervous playing on camera in a win in addition to being very fatigued of having been up for 14hrs and playing almost 11+ hrs of magic and in that I made mistake of playing Talisman when I meant to cast Signet when I casted Tezz myself my opponent and even the Judge thought I had a signet in play and what I did was a legal play. Thankful my friend noticed the mistake and informed the Judge this is something I encourage players to do if they are spectating a match and see something wrong I made an honest mistake and thankfully we were able to do a rewind. I would have hated to win off an illegal play and greatly thank my group of friends who noticed it and informed a judge. Thankful I was able to regain my composure after this mistake and go on to win the game clinching a spot in the top 8. I will post more of a tournament round by round report in the next few days I am gonna grab some sleep as I have had a little over 7 total hrs of sleep the last 2 days. Keep being awesome guys #TEAM TEZZ

very much looking forward to the report! Loved seeing the deck in action... definately a deck I will sleeve up soon so would love to hear the report.

[Ellomdian]

I would like to start my disguising my misplay on camera round 10 game 3. I incorrectly casted Tezz Agent of Bolas.

If I had a warning for every time I've mistakenly case Tezz in testing without actually having B, I don't think they'd let me be a judge anymore. Double for tapping Signet for mana on it's own...

Looked like a perfectly reasonable misplay after 10 hours of Magic. Sad times that the Mull Monster finally caught up to you in the T8.

[.dk]

So, with Ensnaring Bridge getting worse because of young pyromancer, does anyone think that a singleton Caltrops replacing the 2nd Bridge would be reasonable? Or are we good enough against those decks already that it's a bit of overkill (particularly the Leyline/Helm version)?

[Undomian]

I think Bridge is probably still fine but also that we might need a permanent answer to any Elemental tokens. There are a surprising amount of cards that do this (and we can transmute for a few of them), fortunately, but I'm not sure that any of them are good enough to play in the main deck.

Caltrops: Cool card, awesome against Elemental tokens, but stops us from winning with Thopter tokens.
Cumber Stone: Stops damage from more than just the tokens, but has bad synergy with Bridge. Pitches to Force, but also gets Blasted. Doesn't actually kill the tokens.
Juntu Stakes: Only stops them once they've attacked. Doesn't actually kill the tokens.
Thunderstaff: Prevents damage from more than just Elemental tokens, but doesn't actually kill anything.

Night of Souls' Betrayal: Has applications outside of killing Elemental tokens, but kills Strixes and shuts off Thopter/Sword.
Curse of Death's Hold: 5 mana is so much more than 4 mana in this deck, making this really hard to cast.
Propaganda/War Tax/etc.: These stops a lot of damage to us but not so much to our Planeswalkers.

All of these are reasonable in their own way, I suppose, but in all honestly going more all-in on Thopter/Sword is probably a better answer to Young Pyromancer than any of the aforementioned permanents.

[H]

To continue naming bad situationally reasonable cards there is also (cards which I have a bleeding heart for):

Weakstone: This is just really, really bad.

Urza's Armor: It's terrible and costs 6. I guess it could help versus Burn.

Jace, Architect of Thought: Really bad Jace. I guess it would be pretty funny to ultimate that though.

Tainted Aether: Maybe in the Helm combo version if you don't run Thopters. Also seems funny versus Elves, but is also probably terrible, especially at being double Black. I once considered boarding this versus them in the days before Reclamation Sage existed.

My friends and I actually brainstormed up a list similar to the Helmerator list at Eternal Weekend while driving home from Texas on Saturday night. I think it's really good, I do fear for it's Burn matchup, considering how much support Red has been getting lately.

[.dk]

I think Bridge is probably still fine but also that we might need a permanent answer to any Elemental tokens. There are a surprising amount of cards that do this (and we can transmute for a few of them), fortunately, but I'm not sure that any of them are good enough to play in the main deck.

Caltrops: Cool card, awesome against Elemental tokens, but stops us from winning with Thopter tokens.


I don't understand how it stops you from winning with Thopter tokens. It's a single card answer to Elemental tokens rather than a 2 card answer, so it's great at stalling the game out. If you are using that to hide behind, and assemble the thopter combo later and think that it is better, why not just sacrifice Caltrops to Thopter Foundry? Maybe it's just a sideboard card to bring in vs. Pyromancer decks, but I do think it's worth considering. Practically everything is a 1 toughness creature anymore (outside of Insectile Aberration which Baleful Strix deals with just fine).

And contrary to H, I don't believe that Caltrops is a bad card at all, particularly in the current metagame. At least locally for me (and Ellomdian) anyway. I used to run it out of the sideboard in the previous version of this deck (Super Stax/Planeswalker Stax) and it did some great work against goblins when that was still a deck (Mental Misstep era). Same thing with Null Broach + Ensnaring Bridge as well. I think you're being too quick to write off cards without testing them.

[maCHOOga]

So, with Ensnaring Bridge getting worse because of young pyromancer, does anyone think that a singleton Caltrops replacing the 2nd Bridge would be reasonable? Or are we good enough against those decks already that it's a bit of overkill (particularly the Leyline/Helm version)?

im trying to splash red with 1 volcanic for either Izzet staticaster or circle of flame. Another alternative is ratchet bomb, which is probably the most versatile.

I personally think the harder card to deal with is swiftspear. With 1 power it can attack under the bridge and then grow at instant speed. This is assuming you can actually resolve a chalice on 1. :-)

[.dk]

Doesn't Baleful Strix deal with Swiftspear just fine though? Yeah, you've taken a few damage by the time you've cast an blocked, but doesn't seem that awful.

[maCHOOga]

Doesn't Baleful Strix deal with Swiftspear just fine though? Yeah, you've taken a few damage by the time you've cast an blocked, but doesn't seem that awful.

Yes...but they tend to bolt, forked bolt, chain lighting and smash to smithereens it. I had a hard time keeping one in play. I'm also assuming that it's correct to play Strix on Turn 2. Obviously if you have Tezz and turn it into a 5/5, that's a different story! :)

[.dk]

Yes...but they tend to bolt, forked bolt, chain lighting and smash to smithereens it. I had a hard time keeping one in play. I'm also assuming that it's correct to play Strix on Turn 2. Obviously if you have Tezz and turn it into a 5/5, that's a different story! :)

Fair point. I guess you hope that you have chalice on 1 down beforehand...

[Ellomdian]

So, with Ensnaring Bridge getting worse because of young pyromancer, does anyone think that a singleton Caltrops replacing the 2nd Bridge would be reasonable? Or are we good enough against those decks already that it's a bit of overkill (particularly the Leyline/Helm version)?


Caltrops is fun, and I've played with it before. I really wish EPlague was better right now, because naming Human against UR is strong. I am a fan of bringing in NoSB (although you are boarding out ThopterSword, and I know people really don't like doing that...) I've also been playing with a Null Broach in the side to help Bridgelock decks.

Seriously though guys - try the Sun Droplets. Not even kidding. The thing about board control decks is that every additional lock component makes your opponents life more difficult - you aren't going to race Viking Funeral, so slow them down to a crawl (-space?)

Also, don't forget - Transmuting and then looping an EE will deal with the tokens, assuming you are Bridgelocking the other creatures.

[Koby]

I like Ratchet Bomb better in the application of killing tokens. Granted that EE is more flexible, but Ratchet Bomb has the added bonus of no mana activation, and can be "tinkered" to address various other threats. /* Also it comes in Korean, which is important to me */

[Ellomdian]

As promised, here is my current 75.


//Creatureless Deck is Creatureless. Except These
4 Baleful Strix

// Spells that Win You The Game

4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Staff of Nin
2 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek

// Spells that Do Stuff!

4 Force of Will
3 Transmute Artifact
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Damnation
1 The Abyss

// Lands and Rocks

3 Polluted Delta
3 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Underground Sea
3 Darkslick Shores
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Academy Ruins
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Island
1 Swamp

2 Dimir Signet
4 Talisman of Dominance

// Sideboard

3 Lodestone Golem
2 Sun Droplet
2 Misdirection
1 Notion Thief
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Null Brooch


NOTES: I am MD biased to fight Midrange, with an acknowledged weakness to GY. Staff of Nin is a phenomenal anti-control card, but if you see less Miracles, you could swap it for a Coercive Portal. I am still trying to identify the best anti-Viking Funeral strategy, as Lodestone Golem is good, but the Droplets and Anti-aggro cards are often better. Misdirection is easily the all-star of this board, and I regret ever having played a 15 that does not have it.

[.dk]

I like Ratchet Bomb better in the application of killing tokens. Granted that EE is more flexible, but Ratchet Bomb has the added bonus of no mana activation, and can be "tinkered" to address various other threats. /* Also it comes in Korean, which is important to me */

Ratchet Bomb at 0 also kills Insectile Aberration, which is big game. Good point... Although Caltrops takes care of Young Peezy itself, Clique, and the deck Death and Taxes.

[Ellomdian]

I like Ratchet Bomb better in the application of killing tokens. Granted that EE is more flexible, but Ratchet Bomb has the added bonus of no mana activation, and can be "tinkered" to address various other threats. /* Also it comes in Korean, which is important to me */

Korean not withstanding (and the MM foil version of EE is GORGEOUS,) I prefer EE - paying 2 mana to activate it after a Transmute typically isn't a problem, (and the Transmute doesn't cost any extra, ever) and you can sink colorless mana into it to get around various Chalice-esque shenanigans. Pretty much any situation that requires you to answer an on-board non-creature permanent of CMC > 2 is going to be very, very bad, as it's going to take you 2-3 turns with Ratchet Bomb.

I also like that recursive EE's > Recursive Ratchet Bombs for CMC 1. But Ratchet Bomb has a mana cost when/if you Transmute it out.

Granted, in this deck, they are effectively the same card. Go with God :cool:

[TMPWDobs]

Hi Zach Dobbin here I came in 5th place out of 481 at Eternal Weekend here is my list for reference

Creature [4]
4 Baleful Strix
Artifact [18]
2 Talisman of Dominance
2 Thopter Foundry
4 Dimir Signet
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Trinisphere
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Seat of the Synod
Instant [4]
4 Force of Will
Sorcery [3]
3 Transmute Artifact

Enchantment [4]
4 Leyline of the Void
Planeswalker [6]
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2 Tezzeret the Seeker
Land [21]
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Darkwater Catacombs
3 City of Traitors
1 Darkslick Shores
4 Polluted Delta
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Underground Sea
1 Academy Ruins
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Sideboard

1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Lodestone Golem
1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Plague
2 Flusterstorm
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Toxic Deluge

Ok now to the tournament report. At the beginning of the day I knew regardless of what happened it was gonna be a fun day. It started when I showed my friend Brett the list he smiles and says that I was the only person at the venue with a Darkwater Catacombs I make a bet with him if a vendor has one he has to buy it for me and I win the 5 dollar bet. We check ever vendor and when we get to the last one Card Titan they ask how many I want I smile and say one it cost 4 dollars Brett buys for me and I win the bet. With that I'm already in a good mood and ready to play some magic. Currently Planeswalker Points is down so I will edit with opponents names later...

Round 1 Martin Worsham, UR Delver with Cruise
Game 1 I land a pregame Leyline of Void. My opponent mulliganed to 6 this game he is on the play. His first play is a ponder and a shuffle. I land an early chalice on 1 before he has a threat in play I am able to transmute away a Signet for Helm and combo for the kill.

Sideboarding I bring in Engineered Plague for the Elementals Ratchet Bomb EE and Batterskull I trim my Force of Will to 2 leave some in for a possible Price from Opponent also Cut one of each TEZZ

Game 2 I lock and early chalice on 1 however his first threat is Young Pyro. I transmute for a batterskull to try to race. He lands a 2nd young Pyro makes an army of Elementals and wins the race.

Game 3 I have a turn 0 Leyline this game but I get stuck on lands with double transmute in hand but only 2 lands in play and a signet so I can't transmute and win... It was a frustrating game cause had 4 turns to draw and land and believed I would have won. I congratulate my opponent and see how round 1 for my friends went.
0-1

Round 2 Allen Norman Death Blade

Game 1 This game I have a turn 0 Leyline my opponent ponders and his first threat is a Stoneforge Mystic I land a Baleful Strix then ensnaring bridge until I find transmute into helm for the win.

Sideboarding I bring in my Toxic Deluges and Vendillion Clique cutting my forces and one Tezz.

Game 2 plays similar to game 1 I go to 8 before I can find a Bridge then I deluge for 2 to clear his board of stoneforge and true name next turn I draw combo kill with Helm

1-1

Round 3 Weston Cates D & T

Game 1 I go all the way down to 6 life before I find Ensnaring Bridge it buys me the time I need to cast leyline then transmute for helm and combo kill.

Sideboarding Toxic Deluges EE and Ratchet Bomb I cut my Forces and one Agent of Bolas

Game 2 I find thopter Sword and bridge but my opponent cast council of judgement equips Batterskull with sword of fire and ice and swings for lethal.

Game 3 I have turn 0 Leyline Toxic Deluge is amazing as first one kills mother and revoker. A 2nd one kills a revoker and Thalia. I transmute and combo kill.
2-1

Round 4 Zachary Skorinko Storm

Game 1 I land a trinisphere and my opponnent concedes.

Sideboarding I bring in flusterstorm Loadstone Golems and Ratchet Bomb I cut baleful Strix and one Tezz Seeker.

Game 2 My chalice gets duressed from my hand I play a thopter foundry. My opponent goes for the kill he says storm is irrelevant when he makes it to nine I put a dice on the table. I make him go through the motions thankfully for him he makes storm 11 and I am only able to go to exactly 22 from my thopter.

Game 3 I keep an opening hand of double force and fluster storm he muligans to 5 this game. I eventual land double lodestone golems and earn the concession.

3-1

Round 5 Ryan Seeley Sneak and Show

Ensnaring Bridge is really good lol

4-1

Round 6 Matt Mercer UR Delver Cruise

Game one I play a turn one chalice on 1 after goin draw go for awhile I decide I'm just going to Helm for value I talk about this in my interview which I will post later. I take a young pyromancer and attack him all the way down from 15.

See sideboarding for matchup earlier

Game 2 this game I combo kill he smashes in response to my helm activation but judge explains to him that activation is still on stack and I win game.

5-1

Round 7 Sullivan Brophy Manaless Dredge :)

Game 1 I win turn 0 with pregame Leyline of Void

Game 2 He has pregame effect of Chancellor of the Annex I play turn 1 ancient tomb Grafdigger's Cage. I get concession.

Round last a total of 3 minutes

6-1

Round 8 Reid Duke on Miracles

Game 1 Reid plays turn 1 Top I have a chalice on 1 as my first play he plays a Jace. I play a Tezz Agent of Bolas and make the play of turning my chalice into a 5/5 to kill Jace we talk about this play after and he agreed with me it was correct play. I attack him to 13 with my chalice he is able to terminus it to the bottom. I land a leyline of the void then am able to transmute for the combo kill

Sideboarding I bring in EE Ratchet Bomb and Pithing Needle cutting 3 Forces considered bringing in Golems and Batterskull

Game 2 Reid gets stuck on lands a bit this game he does counter my hard cast helm I believe 4 times I keep returning to my top at end of his turn with Academy Ruins. I finally land it for the combo kill.

He congratulates me and says he hopes I am able to top 8 cause he would like to see more of list.
7-1

Round 9 I play against Nate Sturm Maverick on Camera

Video - http://www.twitch.tv/cardtitan/b/581803847?t=5h11m30s Any questions on my decision making I will gladly answer.

8-1

My interview follows this match

Round 10 I get paired down and have to play it is on camera again vs Michael Scheffenacker UR Delver

Video http://www.twitch.tv/cardtitan/b/581803847?t=6h37m15s

9-1 good enough for 2nd overall seed after swiss I have another interview following the match.

In top 8 I run into bad luck with a mul to 5 game 1 and opponent having answer for ensnaring bridge when I hoped would buy me time in game 2.

I played Eric Markowicz on UWR Delver
Video can be seen here http://www.twitch.tv/cardtitan/b/582135810?t=7m

Overall the list was a blast to play toxic deluge was amazing all day I never say engineered plague vs Delver but I went 2-1 in matchup with one game getting stuck on lands. This was the deck/matchup I had in mind when I decided to play list

I will gladly answer questions on my card choices and thoughts on deck goin forward. Keep being awesome guys
#Team TEZZ

[Myelectronicdays]

Thanks for the tournament report! seems like the deck is a blast to play.. haven't been this psyched to sleeve up this set of cards in quite some time.

Hoping to give it a run next week.

[Yonthan]

Hi Zach Dobbin here I came in 5th place out of 481 at Eternal Weekend here is my list for reference

Creature [4]
4 Baleful Strix
Artifact [18]
2 Talisman of Dominance
2 Thopter Foundry
4 Dimir Signet
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Trinisphere
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Seat of the Synod
Instant [4]
4 Force of Will
Sorcery [3]
3 Transmute Artifact

Enchantment [4]
4 Leyline of the Void
Planeswalker [6]
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2 Tezzeret the Seeker
Land [21]
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Darkwater Catacombs
3 City of Traitors
1 Darkslick Shores
4 Polluted Delta
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Underground Sea
1 Academy Ruins
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Sideboard

1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Lodestone Golem
1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Plague
2 Flusterstorm
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Toxic Deluge


Congrats for the finish Zach! Do you mind to share insight on what cards to board in and out in the following matchup?
a) UWr Miracle
b) U/R delver
c) Death & Taxes
d) Sneak & Show?

Thanks!

[Undomian]

So. For those of us playing the UBr version, a possible new inclusion was just spoiled:

http://i.imgur.com/tHH777m.jpg

This card is interesting. He reminds me a lot of Dack in that his plus ability (although worse than Dack's) filters through our deck, but the minus is probably a lot better. I'm not 100% sure that this card belongs in our deck, as a lot of the reason why I like Dack is that he has a lower CMC than both Tezzeret and Jace for those games where we get to an early 3 mana rather than an early 4. There is probably some sweet Welder/Dack/Daretti/Intuition brew, but that's a different deck entirely.

[Bobmans]

Daretti would replace both goblin welder and dack from the list. Propably 1-2 intuition en some singletons of lodestone golem, wurmcoil engine and platinum emperion or w/e as intuition targets.

[maCHOOga]

So. For those of us playing the UBr version, a possible new inclusion was just spoiled:

http://i.imgur.com/tHH777m.jpg

This card is interesting. He reminds me a lot of Dack in that his plus ability (although worse than Dack's) filters through our deck, but the minus is probably a lot better. I'm not 100% sure that this card belongs in our deck, as a lot of the reason why I like Dack is that he has a lower CMC than both Tezzeret and Jace for those games where we get to an early 3 mana rather than an early 4. There is probably some sweet Welder/Dack/Daretti/Intuition brew, but that's a different deck entirely.

I played the UBr version last night at my LGS. At first I was still on the fence about Dack the greatest thief in the multiverse.

I resolved him against what I thought was delver, only to turn out to be UR Omnitell, he wasn't stellar there, obviously!

In round 3, I resolved Dack against Miracles. Wow! Drawing "3" cards per turn is good. There was 1 turn where I attempted to steal a Divining Top, which he placed on top of his deck, which allowed me to get through counterbalance. Later, he tapped out for a helm of obedience, without the ability to activate it. Dack thoroughly enjoyed stealing it and exiling his library. #badbeats!

I think the new planeswalker is good, but I think it's just plain better in welder MUD. I definitely think its worth trying out.

This was my first time playing this archetype, but WOW I love it. As a MUD player, this is a welcomed change.

[[SLAYER]chaos]

I'm gonna sleeve up your list to try out on Friday because I think it's a great call in this delver flooded metagame. A few questions, was there any point that you wanted Jtms over Tezz the seeker? And were there times that leylines just got clogged in your hand?

[Ellomdian]

chaos;843442']I'm gonna sleeve up your list to try out on Friday because I think it's a great call in this delver flooded metagame. A few questions, was there any point that you wanted Jtms over Tezz the seeker? And were there times that leylines just got clogged in your hand?

More importantly, did you ever use TtS as anything other than a 5 mana tinker? I'm curious if it might just make more sense to go with 4 MD Transmutes.

[TMPWDobs]

Congrats for the finish Zach! Do you mind to share insight on what cards to board in and out in the following matchup?
a) UWr Miracle
b) U/R delver
c) Death & Taxes
d) Sneak & Show?

Thanks!

For The UWR Miracle Matchup I brought in 1 Engineered Explosives 1 Ratchet Bomb 1 Pithing Needle you can consider bringing in Clique to Clique miracles out of their hands and also Batterskull so you have a clock. Pithing Needle is for top and Jace Engineered Explosives you usually set on 2 to deal with counterbalance ratchet bomb is same idea also to destroy Angels. I cut 3 of my Force of Wills...

For U/R Delver I brought in 1 Engineered Explosives 1 Ratchet Bomb 1 Batterskull 1 Engineered Plague
Toxic Deluge is a card you can bring in maybe 1 or 2 to whip board for at most 2 life. Enginnered Plague is for young pyromancer tokens or if you can land early just kill young pyromancer. Batterskull is so can try to race. EE and Ratchet Bomb is for removing threats just make sure if you have a chalice in play not to blow up unless have to cause you will lose your chalice. I trim my Force of Will to 2 leave some in for a possible Price from Opponent also Cut one of each TEZZ

For Death and Taxes Toxic Deluges are amazing you want all there also you bring in Ratchet Bomb and EE I cut my Forces and one Agent of Bolas

For Sneak and Show I bring in Cliques Pithing Needle and Lodestone Golems Pithing Needle is for Sneak Attack mostly sometimes have to name Jace. Cliques are for response to Show and Tells and also to disrupt combo Golems are to give you a clock and tax your opponents spells. You trim down your Baleful Strix and Tezz

Hope this answers your question

[TMPWDobs]

chaos;843442']I'm gonna sleeve up your list to try out on Friday because I think it's a great call in this delver flooded metagame. A few questions, was there any point that you wanted Jtms over Tezz the seeker? And were there times that leylines just got clogged in your hand?

I never missed Jace. There was only one game where I got impatient with a chalice in play on 1 vs UR Delver so I helmed for value lol got a Young Pyromancer then proceed to draw Leyline of Void 3 of next 5 turns. I won the game though beating down with Young Pyromancer. There were games that I didn't have a pregame Leyline but would draw and cast. Having them in play puts fear in your opponent and makes any draw of transmute/big Tezz or hard cast Helm a lethal combo...


More importantly, did you ever use TtS as anything other than a 5 mana tinker? I'm curious if it might just make more sense to go with 4 MD Transmutes.

Big Tezz was amazing all day I used him to find both parts of Thopter/Swords combo and making Baleful Strix have vigilance is sweet. In addition if for some reason you don't have an artifact in play yes I know it is rare he is able to find Helm. Plus it feels so good casting him then instantly picking him up for the win. Also I used him to find bridge then tick up and be able to tutor again when didn't have a leyline in play yet.

[Sisyphos]

chaos;843442'] And were there times that leylines just got clogged in your hand?

That is the wrong question to ask. Every version of the deck runs a multitude of 4cc cards that get stuck in your hand doing little to nothing. The question you should be asking to judge the value of including Leyline/Helm is: Do you loose more games due to Leylines doing nothing then you win games on account of the combo that you would not have won otherwise? How many Leylines you draw is irrelevant as long as you draw one of your "six" Helms before you die.


Re: Big Tezz vs 4th Transmute:
As TMPWDobs said, you can double Tinker with him if the first one does not win the game and the untap ability offers utility in some corner cases, either giving "vigilance" or providing additional mana untapping Signets or artifact lands. Two points I'd like to add are: It is easier to get a 5cc card through a CB/Top-lock and it adds another win condition. I have won games by simply attacking with Chalice/artifact land/2 Signets for 20 the turn after I played him.

[TMPWDobs]

That is the wrong question to ask. Every version of the deck runs a multitude of 4cc cards that get stuck in your hand doing little to nothing. The question you should be asking to judge the value of including Leyline/Helm is: Do you loose more games due to Leylines doing nothing then you win games on account of the combo that you would not have won otherwise? How many Leylines you draw is irrelevant as long as you draw one of your "six" Helms before you die.


Re: Big Tezz vs 4th Transmute:
As TMPWDobs said, you can double Tinker with him if the first one does not win the game and the untap ability offers utility in some corner cases, either giving "vigilance" or providing additional mana untapping Signets or artifact lands. Two points I'd like to add are: It is easier to get a 5cc card through a CB/Top-lock and it adds another win condition. I have won games by simply attacking with Chalice/artifact land/2 Signets for 20 the turn after I played him.

Thank you for further adding to my point. Leyline was amazing all day if I didn't have turn 0 whenever I drew I would cast right away cause it adds pressure and another win-con to the board once it is play all you need is to find one of "six" Helms to win. There were games I was at 4 before I found combo to win...

In addition Big Tezz vs counterbalance is good cause only 5 in there deck is force and sometimes batterskull...

[Higgs]

How do you guys beat a Nul Rod from the board of Team America? Do you essentially try to race them with planeswalker ultimates if Rod ever resolves?

[Ellomdian]

How do you guys beat a Nul Rod from the board of Team America? Do you essentially try to race them with planeswalker ultimates if Rod ever resolves?


Turn it into a 5/5 with Tezz and bounce it with JTMS...

If Null Rod was a more popular SB card, it would be more scary and it would be worth considering specifically (I personally would shift away from ThopterSword back to the Wurmcoil/Karn package.) I think I've seen less than a dozen cast since I wrote the original primer. It's the same thing with a card like Back To Basics; this deck does not have a convenient answer to a resolved non-creature permanent with a CMC >2 for the same reason why the deck is very strong - neither does anyone else.

If your opponent brought in a single Rod, saw it, and resolved it for a match win, or if they have multiple Rods in the board, tough break. They are very poorly positioned for the rest of the room, and happened to get paired against you. It's like the Burn Deck sitting down against Belcher -even potential REB's are bad cards in a neigh un-winnable matchup.

[Sisyphos]

If your opponent brought in a single Rod, saw it, and resolved it for a match win, or if they have multiple Rods in the board, tough break. They are very poorly positioned for the rest of the room, and happened to get paired against you. It's like the Burn Deck sitting down against Belcher -even potential REB's are bad cards in a neigh un-winnable matchup.

You can also still turn your Foundry into a 5/5 with TezzAoB and attack. Attacking is not considered an activated ability. :wink: But apart from that, yeah pretty much what Ellomdian said. Null Rod would have to see a lot more play in a lot more decks (read: 2-3 in the board or even some copies main) before I would consider making changes to the maindeck or even give up board slots for specific cards dedicated to handle it. Playing a deck based around the activated abilities of several artifacts means you have to take the risk of running into some hate cards. If you are worried about post board Null Rod against TA, you can also consider boarding in stuff like Lodestone Golem or Vendilion Clique against them, cards that do not care about Null Rod but still have applications against a variety of different decks and which therefor are already considered reasonable sideboard options. And if everything fails and you do die to Null Rod, just think about how the Manaless Dredge player feels when he gets paired against you with your maindeck Leylines. Wish your opponent good luck and wait for the next round.

[OCPunisher]

Totally sleeving up your list at my next Legacy event, Zach. Can't believe no one's ever thought to include both Helm combo and Thopter combo in the main deck before. Great idea!

[Phelix]

Loving the deck -

any common ground on what UBR list is best?

[Higgs]

I will gladly answer questions on my card choices and thoughts on deck goin forward. Keep being awesome guys
#Team TEZZ

Did the clash between Leylines and the Sword/Thopter combo ever become an issue? Looking at the list and goldfishing a few hands made me think that the Sword/Thopter combo may become a liability if you open with a Leyline everytime you have it in your opener.

[Undomian]

Did the clash between Leylines and the Sword/Thopter combo ever become an issue? Looking at the list and goldfishing a few hands made me think that the Sword/Thopter combo may become a liability if you open with a Leyline everytime you have it in your opener.

A clash in that it makes deciding what to Transmute for a bit more difficult? There isn't really any dissynergy between the cards.

[Higgs]

Ok maybe I'm missing something but if you've opened with Leyline doesn't it shut off your Sword recursion?

[Undomian]

Ok maybe I'm missing something but if you've opened with Leyline doesn't it shut off your Sword recursion?

Leyline isn't a symmetrical card, so your graveyard remains untouched.

[Higgs]

Derp. Thanks

[Sisyphos]

Derp. Thanks

You're not the only one missing that part of the interaction. I had actual opponents declining to counter Transmute for Foundry telling me: "Sure go ahead and get the card. You won't get anything out of it." before having the interaction explained and dying to Thopter tokens two turns later.

[TMPWDobs]

Looks like it has already been answered but ya Leyline only effects your opponents graveyard and like I said there will be some game ones where you win of Thopter/Swords and they never see Leyline so they bring in a card like Rest in Peace which gives you another way to Helm/Combo...

[Yonthan]

For The UWR Miracle Matchup I brought in 1 Engineered Explosives 1 Ratchet Bomb 1 Pithing Needle you can consider bringing in Clique to Clique miracles out of their hands and also Batterskull so you have a clock. Pithing Needle is for top and Jace Engineered Explosives you usually set on 2 to deal with counterbalance ratchet bomb is same idea also to destroy Angels. I cut 3 of my Force of Wills...

For U/R Delver I brought in 1 Engineered Explosives 1 Ratchet Bomb 1 Batterskull 1 Engineered Plague
Toxic Deluge is a card you can bring in maybe 1 or 2 to whip board for at most 2 life. Enginnered Plague is for young pyromancer tokens or if you can land early just kill young pyromancer. Batterskull is so can try to race. EE and Ratchet Bomb is for removing threats just make sure if you have a chalice in play not to blow up unless have to cause you will lose your chalice. I trim my Force of Will to 2 leave some in for a possible Price from Opponent also Cut one of each TEZZ

For Death and Taxes Toxic Deluges are amazing you want all there also you bring in Ratchet Bomb and EE I cut my Forces and one Agent of Bolas

For Sneak and Show I bring in Cliques Pithing Needle and Lodestone Golems Pithing Needle is for Sneak Attack mostly sometimes have to name Jace. Cliques are for response to Show and Tells and also to disrupt combo Golems are to give you a clock and tax your opponents spells. You trim down your Baleful Strix and Tezz

Hope this answers your question

Thanks man! Your advice helps a lot! Just some follow up questions...

a) Death and Taxes
I found that boarding out Chalice on the draw but keep the forces might be better because I am behind already, and Chalice at one might not be useful coz they might land a vial on the play. And chalice looks stupid once they have vial resolved.

2) Sneak and Show/Reanimator
Have you ever considered not to trim down the strix because I am hoping to block the 7/7 lifelink demand with the strix, but honestly I don't know what else to board out for the sb...

3) Have you ever considered increasing the count of Bridges?

Thanks again! :)

[SteamfloggerBoss]

Thanks man! Your advice helps a lot! Just some follow up questions...

a) Death and Taxes
I found that boarding out Chalice on the draw but keep the forces might be better because I am behind already, and Chalice at one might not be useful coz they might land a vial on the play. And chalice looks stupid once they have vial resolved.

2) Sneak and Show/Reanimator
Have you ever considered not to trim down the strix because I am hoping to block the 7/7 lifelink demand with the strix, but honestly I don't know what else to board out for the sb...

3) Have you ever considered increasing the count of Bridges?

Thanks again! :)


I was also wondering about increasing the bridge count. I ran the deck last Saturday at a GPT, and resolving bridges feels really good. I am unsure about what to cut for another bridge though. For the moment I cut down to one foundry; however, I am not sure if that is the best card to cut or if there is a better option to trim.

[kingtk3]

I think that dimir charm deserves a couple of slots main deck:
-it kills any creature played in legacy bar flipped delver, vendilion and goyf
-it counters any relevant spell of any combo deck (past in flames, natural order, zenith, s&t...) plus discard and some other powerful spell like entreat or treasure cruise or ancestral vision
-its third ability it's not of great use but can come in handy against enlightened tutor

[Sisyphos]

2) Sneak and Show/Reanimator
Have you ever considered not to trim down the strix because I am hoping to block the 7/7 lifelink demand with the strix, but honestly I don't know what else to board out for the sb...
Blocking Griselbrand with Strix sounds great in theory until you realize that you are playing against a combo deck that has just drawn 7-14 new cards. Your chances of winning are slim after Griselbrand gets to attack whether you can kill him or not. Sure, it may happen if they drew 13 lands of Griselbrand but you should not count on it. More likely than not they will just cast another SnT or activate Sneak Attack on their next turn and kill you after countering any relevant spell you can come up with in your one draw step. The best use of Strix against SnT is a) pitching to FoW, b) being another artifact for Tezz ults or c) "cycling" to find a Bridge. Any card that can stop Sneak and Show from getting a creature into play or attacking you either by interacting with them (Force, Bridge, Needle effects etc) or simply winning yourself (Leyline/Helm etc) is way better.



3) Have you ever considered increasing the count of Bridges?
I have played lists that had three bridges between Main/Board in the past, but after going up to 5 tutor effects I never felt the need for the third one. Experiences may vary depending on your meta, but you also have to consider that decks that rely on attacking with a large number of creatures have decreased in popularity (Merfolk, Mavrick, D&T, Goyf.dec) in recent months, while the decks that can swarm you mainly do so with creatures that have 1 power when attacking (Swiftspear, Pyromancer, Elves [pre-CHB)). Delver-style decks usually rely on 1-2 creatures to win, making Thopter/Sword or Strix basically mini-Bridges. Thopter/Sword is sometimes even better than Bridge. Sure it costs more mana to use, but it doubles as a win condition and it gains back life lost. The life gain allows you to do some pretty stupid stuff once in a while, like racing TNN with Jitte on it. So basically depending on your metagame (amount of SnT for example), a third Bridge in the sideboard might be worth considering, but I would never cut a Foundry for it, because the two cards fullfill some of the same roles and 1 Foundry/1 Sword is not reliable enough to get the combo online in a timely fashion without major investments like setting up multiple Transmutes over multiple turns.


I think that dimir charm deserves a couple of slots main deck: (...)
Played with it in the past, would definitely consider it when playing a version without Helm. Helm/Leyline is very goot at the moment and will probably continue to be until Cruise/DTT get banned or something else drastic happens, but you have to find slots for it. If I were to cut the combo and add Jaces back in, I would probably add at least one Dimir Charm in one of the two flex slots. The third option is also usable with your own Jaces to get out of Brainstorm locks as you play less shuffle effects than other decks.

[Yonthan]

I think that dimir charm deserves a couple of slots main deck:
-it kills any creature played in legacy bar flipped delver, vendilion and goyf
-it counters any relevant spell of any combo deck (past in flames, natural order, zenith, s&t...) plus discard and some other powerful spell like entreat or treasure cruise or ancestral vision
-its third ability it's not of great use but can come in handy against enlightened tutor

does the charm kill the flipped delver/clique/goyf (assuming it's beyond 2/3)? I thought it only kills creature with power 2 or less?

[Ellomdian]

I have played lists that had three bridges between Main/Board in the past, but after going up to 5 tutor effects I never felt the need for the third one.


I will second this, and my list is even more extreme (1 Bridge main, 1 SB.) G1 against anything that can deal with a Bridge, you should not be planning to sit behind it for more than 2-3 turns. Bridge gives you a pretty universal answer to creatures in a way that Damnation does not, but it does not win you the game.

Side Note: I have been ruining people's day with Guardian Beast in the main again. YMMV, but if you are dealing with an increased number of Decays, it's a great answer.

[Myelectronicdays]

I just exploded with happiness with the idea of guardian beast in here. And old time favorite of mine

[Undomian]

I like my Guardian Beasts well enough, but I love my Abysses more. :cry:

[Myelectronicdays]

I like my Guardian Beasts well enough, but I love my Abysses more. :cry:

yeah the more i thought about it.. id rather have an abyss jammed in. sorry guardian.

[Ellomdian]

yeah the more i thought about it.. id rather have an abyss jammed in. sorry guardian.

You know, you can play with them both...

They serve different purposes. Honestly, I am having less problems with creatures attacking me, and more problems with Decay (and other removal with evasion...)

[tinofthefoil]

Truly Creatureless

4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Tezzeret the Seeker
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
4 leyline of the void
1 helm of obedience

4 Force of Will
3 Transmute Artifact
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 The Abyss

3 Polluted Delta
3 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Underground Sea
3 Darkslick Shores
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Academy Ruins
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Island
1 Swamp

2 Dimir Signet
4 Talisman of Dominance



This is the list I am anticipating bringing to the GP, and would like some feedback. I've opted for 0 baleful strix in lieu of 2 tezzeret the seeker, and 2 Chains of Mephistopheles. The tezzeret is to help facilitate the helm combo, and the chains as a nod to the power of card draw, that we inherently lack. Adding 4 baleful that simply replace itself does not feel strong enough hate card as chains does. all of our card 'advantage' in planeswalkers do not draw (save jace but +2'ing him is still very strong).

thoughts? why is baleful strix so good?

[Undomian]

Baleful Strix blocks and kills basically every creature in the format. Tarmogoyf, Delver, and friends are actually a problem if we don't have a way to deal with them. Strix helps to stall out the board a bit most of the time, which allows us to get to the late game that we want to be in. In the posted list, you have only 1 EE and 1 Bridge (plus Thopter/Sword, but that takes time to set up) to deal with your opponent's offensive. It seems like you're just going to get run over by Delver and other creature decks without Strix in your maindeck.

[Myelectronicdays]

Undomian is right.. and UR delver is running rampant right now... those decks are going to roll you over without strixes.

[bruizar]

If you want to make a change between those cards, I guess then +1 mephistopheles -1 transmute artifact (OR -1 Baleful Strix) IMO. But I wouldn't bother with Tezz the Seeker. Mephistopheles is a problem for TC+Brainstorm decks, but it doesn't answer threats on the board. That's why I'd keep the Baleful Strixes in.

[Meekrab]

Just won a game on mtgo facing down Humility and active Luminarch Ascension by hardcasting Leyline and then Transmuting for a Helm, good times.

[Ellomdian]

thoughts? why is baleful strix so good?

It's a cheap, card-efficient answer to attacking creatures outside of TNN. It eats Goyfs (not as relevant now) just as easily as Flipped Delvers and Swiftspears.

Unless you have a Bridge down, good luck keeping planeswalkers alive for more than an activation.

[Meekrab]

So lets say that we wanted to splash Dack, maindeck Leyline of the Void, and sideboard things like Abrupt Decay, a couple E. Plagues and maybe Electrickery because **** Counterbalance, **** Elves, **** Elemental tokens, **** Dredge even though Leyline hasn't come up yet, etc.

Basically, pretend you want to be pre-sideboarded against as many popular, GP- likely decks as possible.

What would our manabase be?

Right now I'm running this, but 29 mana slots doesn't feel right and I'm missing some number of City of Traitors and 1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth...

4x Underground Sea
4x Polluted Delta
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Dimir Signet
3x Darkslick Shores
2x Talisman of Dominance
2x Mox Diamond
1x Academy Ruins
1x Volcanic Island
1x Tropical Island
1x Badlands
1x Darksteel Citadel
1x Island

[Undomian]

So lets say that we wanted to splash Dack, maindeck Leyline of the Void, and sideboard things like Abrupt Decay, a couple E. Plagues and maybe Electrickery because **** Counterbalance, **** Elves, **** Elemental tokens, **** Dredge even though Leyline hasn't come up yet, etc.

Basically, pretend you want to be pre-sideboarded against as many popular, GP- likely decks as possible.

What would our manabase be?

Right now I'm running this, but 29 mana slots doesn't feel right and I'm missing some number of City of Traitors and 1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth...

4x Underground Sea
4x Polluted Delta
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Dimir Signet
3x Darkslick Shores
2x Talisman of Dominance
2x Mox Diamond
1x Academy Ruins
1x Volcanic Island
1x Tropical Island
1x Badlands
1x Darksteel Citadel
1x Island

I'll admit, the manabase in my UBr list is greedy as hell, and I do sometimes lose to Wastelands because of it. That, though, is just asking to never cast any of the spells in your deck. I don't think you can realistically play with that many colors in this format with only 2 Diamonds and 4 Fetchlands, and that's not even taking into account the fact that you have 5 colorless lands as well. The only way those 4c Delver lists can pull it off is the combination of DRS with something like 10 fetchlands, which this is not even close to.

[Myelectronicdays]

I'll admit, the manabase in my UBr list is greedy as hell, and I do sometimes lose to Wastelands because of it. That, though, is just asking to never cast any of the spells in your deck. I don't think you can realistically play with that many colors in this format with only 2 Diamonds and 4 Fetchlands, and that's not even taking into account the fact that you have 5 colorless lands as well. The only way those 4c Delver lists can pull it off is the combination of DRS with something like 10 fetchlands, which this is not even close to.

I'd def agree. that manabase looks greedy and scary as hell. I don't think it's something you could pull off. :/

[Meekrab]

That's interesting feedback because I haven't had problems casting my spells, mostly I've had issues with drawing too many mana sources. Having a virtual ~7 sources of Red and Green has been plenty so far, though I'll admit I haven't played any sort of super-aggressive mana denial stifle waste plan RUG delver or Chalice Stompy.

It may help to realize you only need red or green when you need them, never both. Landing Dack to steal a Divining Top isn't high on the agenda versus just blowing up Counterbalance and playing for the win.

[tinofthefoil]

Is there any merit to splashing green for abrupt decay? How does the deck answer a resolved leyline of sanctity and ensnaring bridge? The best i can think of would be to turn the bridge into a 5/5 and bounce it with jace. leyline blocks tezz and jace ultimates, the 'other' wincon. Should there be made room for a SB echoing truth?

[sdematt]

Is there any merit to splashing green for abrupt decay? How does the deck answer a resolved leyline of sanctity and ensnaring bridge? The best i can think of would be to turn the bridge into a 5/5 and bounce it with jace. leyline blocks tezz and jace ultimates, the 'other' wincon. Should there be made room for a SB echoing truth?

If they have Leyline, you kill them with Thopters. If they don't, you can Tezz them out. As for a resolved Ensnaring Bridge against us, build up and Tezz ultimate if you can.

Here's my list for reference:


4 Force of Will
3 Transmute Artifact
1 The Abyss
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Baleful Strix

2 Tezzeret the Seeker
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

1 Helm of Obedience
4 Leyline of the Void

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek

2 Talisman of Dominance
4 Dimir Signet
3 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
3 Wasteland
2 Academy Ruins

SB: 2 Goblin Welder
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Misdirection
SB: 2 Lodestone Golem
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Trinisphere
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Caltrops
SB: 1 Crucible of Worlds

-Matt

[Myelectronicdays]

If they have Leyline, you kill them with Thopters. If they don't, you can Tezz them out. As for a resolved Ensnaring Bridge against us, build up and Tezz ultimate if you can.

Here's my list for reference:


4 Force of Will
3 Transmute Artifact
1 The Abyss
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Baleful Strix

2 Tezzeret the Seeker
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

1 Helm of Obedience
4 Leyline of the Void

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek

2 Talisman of Dominance
4 Dimir Signet
3 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
3 Wasteland
2 Academy Ruins

SB: 2 Goblin Welder
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Misdirection
SB: 2 Lodestone Golem
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Trinisphere
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Caltrops
SB: 1 Crucible of Worlds

-Matt

I'm going to be running almost the exact same list this week (although no volc with welder, need to get 2 foil welders). I think the abyss is money.

[tinofthefoil]

If they have Leyline, you kill them with Thopters. If they don't, you can Tezz them out. As for a resolved Ensnaring Bridge against us, build up and Tezz ultimate if you can.

Here's my list for reference:


4 Force of Will
3 Transmute Artifact
1 The Abyss
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Baleful Strix

2 Tezzeret the Seeker
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

1 Helm of Obedience
4 Leyline of the Void

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek

2 Talisman of Dominance
4 Dimir Signet
3 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
3 Wasteland
2 Academy Ruins

SB: 2 Goblin Welder
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Misdirection
SB: 2 Lodestone Golem
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Trinisphere
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Caltrops
SB: 1 Crucible of Worlds

-Matt


I'm running very close (main deck), except instead of seekers, running 2x JTMS. I need a way to ditch dead cards (like the 3rd leyline you draw). The deck already has 3 tutors for helm, if you can cast seeker, you can get helm but not activate, whereas with 5 mana and transmute, you can transmute and pay and activate in the same turn.

[sdematt]

I'm going to be running almost the exact same list this week (although no volc with welder, need to get 2 foil welders). I think the abyss is money.

I mean, if you're going to play a 61st card, the card should cost over $100 I think.

-Matt

[Undomian]

I mean, if you're going to play as 61st card, the card should cost over $100 I think.

-Matt

With logic that sound, how could you ever lose?

[sdematt]

And this is why I almost always money. #Value

Also, you should change "as" in the quote to "a". I mistyped.

-Matt

[TMPWDobs]

So lets say that we wanted to splash Dack, maindeck Leyline of the Void, and sideboard things like Abrupt Decay, a couple E. Plagues and maybe Electrickery because **** Counterbalance, **** Elves, **** Elemental tokens, **** Dredge even though Leyline hasn't come up yet, etc.

Basically, pretend you want to be pre-sideboarded against as many popular, GP- likely decks as possible.

What would our manabase be?

Right now I'm running this, but 29 mana slots doesn't feel right and I'm missing some number of City of Traitors and 1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth...

I played a list that had Dack and ran main deck Grove/Punishing Fire I played it to a 2nd place finish at local legacy event... I can post manabase later when at home have list saved on computer...

[Cwilburn]

I have been watching this deck from afar since its inception. The only thing that keeps me from playing it is whenever I proxy it or use an electronic hand generator/ game simulation, I always seem to run into problems with increased variance in starting hands and draws. This is very much akin to my time playing MUD, but less so due to the search provided by Tezz.

How do you guys feel about the variance issue over several rounds in a tournament? Zach I know eternal champs was long so any input on the matter that you have would be greatly appreciated. This is really the only barrier to playing the deck that I can't seem to get over in my mind.

Does putting back in a few Jace or slotting back in thirst really subtract from this issue?

Thank you in advance for the input.

[hofzge]

4 Force of Will
3 Transmute Artifact
1 The Abyss
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Baleful Strix

2 Tezzeret the Seeker
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

1 Helm of Obedience
4 Leyline of the Void

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek

2 Talisman of Dominance
4 Dimir Signet
3 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
3 Wasteland
2 Academy Ruins

SB: 2 Goblin Welder
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Misdirection
SB: 2 Lodestone Golem
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Trinisphere
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Caltrops
SB: 1 Crucible of Worlds

-Matt

Inspired by your changes to Zach's list I will on Tuesday in our LGS play something more along these lines:

4x Ancient Tomb
3x City of Traitors
2x Darkslick Shores
2x Flooded Strand
2x Island
4x Polluted Delta
1x Swamp
3x Underground Sea
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Volcanic Island
4x Dimir Signet
2x Talisman of Dominance

4x Force of Will
3x Transmute Artifact

3x Baleful Strix
4x Chalice of the Void
2x Ensnaring Bridge
1x The Abyss

4x Leyline of the Void
1x Helm of Obedience
1x Sword of the Meek
2x Thopter Foundry

4x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2x Tezzeret the Seeker

Sideboard

1x Chains of Mephistopheles / Notion Thief
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Goblin Welder
1x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Lodestone Golem
2x Sun Droplet
2x Toxic Deluge
2x Trinisphere
1x Trading Post

Maybe

1x Batterskull
1x Caltrops
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Cursed Totem
1x Engineered Plague
1x Meekstone
1x Misdirection
1x Mox Diamond
1x Night of Souls' Betrayal
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Pithing Needle
1x Ratchet Bomb
1x Smokestack
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Wasteland
1x Wurmcoil Engine

I took out the Wastelands and one Academy Ruins as I don't like the amount of colorless lands your list had. The welder and the Abyss are nice ideas.

I like Grafdigger's Cage more than Tormod's Crypt, as the Crypt is only really good with Welder.
Following on your value theme of the 100$ Card I added some value to combat UR Delver/Miracles to the sideboard.

Also new is a Trading Post, which could be anything, but I lost some games against a normal Jund list and I wanted a permanent with CMC>3 that can take over the game and is preferably an artifact with some minimal protection Ancient Grudge. Wurmcoil Engine / Batterskull are probably just way better.

[Myelectronicdays]

Inspired by your changes to Zach's list I will on Tuesday in our LGS play something more along these lines:

4x Ancient Tomb
3x City of Traitors
2x Darkslick Shores
2x Flooded Strand
2x Island
4x Polluted Delta
1x Swamp
3x Underground Sea
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Volcanic Island
4x Dimir Signet
2x Talisman of Dominance

4x Force of Will
3x Transmute Artifact

3x Baleful Strix
4x Chalice of the Void
2x Ensnaring Bridge
1x The Abyss

4x Leyline of the Void
1x Helm of Obedience
1x Sword of the Meek
2x Thopter Foundry

4x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2x Tezzeret the Seeker

Sideboard
1x Chains of Mephistopheles / Notion Thief
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Goblin Welder
1x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Lodestone Golem
2x Sun Droplet
2x Toxic Deluge
2x Trinisphere
1x Trading Post

Maybeboard (18)
1x Batterskull
1x Caltrops
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Cursed Totem
1x Engineered Plague
1x Meekstone
1x Misdirection
1x Mox Diamond
1x Night of Souls' Betrayal
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Pithing Needle
1x Ratchet Bomb
1x Smokestack
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Wasteland

I took out the Wastelands and one Academy Ruins as I don't like the amount of colorless lands your list had. The welder and the Abyss are nice ideas.

I like Grafdigger's Cage more than Tormod's Crypt, as the Crypt is only really good with Welder. Following on your theme of the 100$ Card i added some value to combat UR delver to the sideboard.

I added a Trading Post, which could be anything as I lost some games against some normal Jund list and I wanted a Permanent with CMC>3 that can take over the game. Wurmcoil Engine might just be better.


Would like to see how that list does.. I took the other UB list to my local last night (did awful, but was my first time piloting the deck, so i expected it to be a big mess). but definately thinking about adding the volc + welder

[hofzge]

Well I played the deck 2 weeks ago in this setup in the LGS:

1 Academy Ruins
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Baleful Strix
4 Chalice of the Void
3 City of Traitors
3 Darkslick Shores
4 Dimir Signet
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Force of Will
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Polluted Delta
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Azorius Signet
2 Tezzeret the Seeker
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2 Thopter Foundry
3 Transmute Artifact
1 Trinisphere
4 Underground Sea
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Sideboard

2 Engineered Explosives
1 Engineered Plague
2 Flusterstorm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Lodestone Golem
1 Uba Mask
1 Pithing Needle
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Damnation
2 Vendilion Clique

I went 3-1 going like this:

Mark 1-0-1 with MUD
G1
The first game I won after an epic back and forth. I resolve an Ensnaring Bridge which gives me time, but he manages to mindslaver me with a Kuldotha Forgemaster and to destroy 4 lands with a Sundering Titan that comes and goes. During the Mindslaver turn he sacs my board including the Bridge to the drawn Thopter Foundry. On the next turn I luck and draw the second Ensnaring Bridge and much later am able to Academy Ruins my Foundry back and win with Thopters. This game took about 40-45 minutes and I mentally high five myself for finally winning it. When he mindslavered me I thought about concedeing, as the game had already taken a while, but decided against it.
G2
The game begins shortly before the extra turns and he still is able to Mindslaver on turn 4, but luckily I cannot my board cannot beat myself and it's a draw.

1-2 Oliver as with UR Delver
G1
I have a Leyline and later a Thopter Foundry. I can win on Helm of Obedience through Transmute Artifact at 4 life.
G2 & G3
These games are a blur but I lose both to Pyroblast and Blood Moon. This matchup is never a cakewalk.

2-0 Lorenz with Death Blade
G1
Early Chalice of the Void on 1 & Ensnaring Bridge. I attack with Strixen and Thopters, while his Batterskull stays home.
G2
More of the same: Chalice of the Void on 1 T1 - He casts 3 or 4 Treasure Cruises, but draws no good.

In the first game hilariously i attack with Strixen and Thopters, while his Batterskull stays home.

2-0 Dominique with UR Delver
G1
Transmute Artifact for the Thopter-Sword on 17 life wins the first game.
G2
I play City of Traitors and Azorius Signet and he wastelandes. I already have another City of Traitors and resolve the drawn Chalice of the Void on 1. If he had instead put down the Delver in his hand and clocked me, he would have won. He then goes on for what felt like 10 turns doing nothing and finally plays a Young Pyromancer which dies of Toxic Deluge. I win in some way or another (I don't remember).

I played Azorius Signets as I had no Talismans and still wanted 6 Mana Artifacts. The Uba Mask is a card I always want to play and am always reminded why it is really bad ;)

[Undomian]

Onto day 2 at 7-2 with my usual list. UR is everywhere...

[apple713]

Onto day 2 at 7-2 with my usual list. UR is everywhere...

what's your usual list? link?

[Undomian]

Sadly finished 10-5 after going 3-3 on the day. I was cursed with bad draws and bad matchups all day long. It's worth noting that I played against UR delver 6 times over the course of the weekend, and didn't get matched up against even a single miracles player. I'll write something up in more detail when I get access to a computer.

[TMPWDobs]

Went 5-3 at gp picking up 3rd loss round 8 and dropping. Losses were all close due to variance. Had a great time at gp did a deck tech on my helmerator list will post more on event later

[Ellomdian]

Onto day 2 at 7-2 with my usual list. UR is everywhere...

UR was EVERYWHERE D1. D2 it wasn't nearly as prevalent. I have a sneaking suspicion that it's overall performance based on D1 numbers is going to be simply turrible. Also, good news, I know someone is currently (still!) entering decklists into a computer to do hard number crunching.


How do you guys feel about the variance issue over several rounds in a tournament?

I think Decks like Stoneblade and UR Delver are based on the idea of reducing variance at the expense of being able to just go over the top. MUD and Tezz are all about sacrificing some consistency for having much more powerful lines. Part of the strength of this deck is that most people won't have tested or played against it, so you can pick up free wins even when the variance bites you.

Also, after a weekend of judging, it was nice to jump in a few on-demand events on Sunday and realize I am HORRIBLE at playing Magic in general, and need to spend some free time practicing if I want to be better. I need to read my own primer - "If you don't have a strong play T1/T2, MULLIGAN!!!"

[Undomian]

Now that I'm home from being a zombie at work all day after the drive back last night, I think now might be an okay time for me to do my writeup for this.

Let's take a look at the 76 I ended up registering:


4 Baleful Strix

2 Dack Fayden
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

1 The Abyss

4 Force of Will
2 Transmute Artifact

4 Chalice of the Void
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ensnaring Bridge

4 Mox Diamond
2 Dimir Signet

1 Academy Ruins
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland
61 cards

SB:
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Blood Moon
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Misdirection
1 The Abyss
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Lodestone Golem


For the entirety of the week going into the GP, I was really kind of flustered regarding the last two slots in my sideboard. I was fairly confident in my maindeck from my testing on Magic Online and at my LGS, but my SB really is tailored to the meta at my store. I expected a lot of aggressive strategies as well as a reasonable amount of combo in this larger tournament, but I wasn't entirely sure how many midrange strategies I would encounter. Blood Moon shines in those matchups, so those were the flex slots, in my opinion. I had tested a multitude of other things in those slots coming into this tournament: Whipflare, Engineered Plague, Night of Souls' Betrayal, Rakdos Charm, Flusterstorm, Chill - you name it, and there's a reasonable chance I gave it a shot. I had byes, so I hedged against the midrange matchups that I expected would defeat Burn and co. in the first few rounds by including Blood Moon rather than more wraths or something like Chill in the decklist that I submitted on Friday night.

This was a mistake.

The other person I drove in with did not have the luxury of two free wins, so we ended up getting to the venue just before the doors opened to start scouting out the dealers. My wallet wept as I picked up a few hundred dollars worth of random Chinese cards (on the upside, I can almost build pimped out Enchantress and Solidarity at this point) as my carmate went to the player's meeting. Thank you, Pink Bunny Games and CardMaster, for feeding this addiction. I hopped in line for John Avon just before round 1 started, and was very happy that the rounds went extremely late after waiting for almost two hours to get my Unhinged lithographs signed. Shortly after dropping those off into the car, the pairings for round 3 went up, and I sat down across from my first opponent to play:

[Excuse my lack of notes for some rounds. I am really bad at remembering to write things down, so most of this is from memory]

Rounds 1 & 2: Byes

2-0

Round 3: Vale with BURG Delver
G1: I win the die roll, and keep a hand of Ancient Tomb, Wasteland, Mox Diamond, FoW, FoW, Tezzeret, The Abyss. An iffy hand, but one that has a lot of (protected) potential should I manage to draw any colored source of mana. I end up drawing a land, slamming Tezzeret on turn 2 with FoW backup, and eventually establish Thopter/Sword to close out the game.
G2: On the draw, I keep a slower draw of 4 lands, 2 Strix, and Transmute Artifact. He doesn't seem to have much going on this game aside from a Delver which meets with my Strix, so when I eventually resolve a Tezzeret, 5/5s quickly close out the game.

3-0

Round 4: Paul with UR Delver
G1: I'm on the draw, but I keep a hand with turn 1 Tomb + Diamond + Chalice to play around his Daze. Though he did resolve a Delver on turn 1, he didn't have the FoW, so he didn't do much else until he died to a bunch of 5/5 artifacts.
G2: I keep a hand on the strength of turn 1 Chalice once again, but with no protection for it. He Dazes my Chalice, plays a Pyromancer, and I don't resolve anything meaningful for the rest of the game.
G3: From the life totals I have written down, I have absolutely no clue what happened in this game. I have us both at 3 life in the late game, with his life going down in seemingly random intervals. I don't gain any life in this game, and he doesn't lose any life in chunks of 5, so my best guess is that I raced him with a bunch of Strixes after locking him behind a Chalice.

4-0

Round 5: Ian with BUG Delver
G1: I play some Strixes and Chalices in the beginning of the game off of a Tomb and two colored lands, and eventually fall to 6 before establishing Thopter/Sword, which he concedes to on the turn I assemble it.
G2: He draws way more Tarmogoyfs than I draw ways to kill Tarmogoyf, and I die in short order
G3: He draws the cantrip half of his deck as I deploy a Chalice on turn 2, and his deck doesn't provide him with enough Abrupt Decays to stop my eventual Tezzeret from ulting for 16.

5-0

Round 6: Elliot with UR Delver
G1: He wins the die roll and mulls to 6, but when his draw is full of Ponders and mine contains a Chalice, the game ends in short order.
G2: I have some amount of interaction, but not enough to stop his flurry of a few Swiftspears into cantrips and Bolts from powering through my wall of robot birds right into my life total.
G3: I'm on the play, and lead with a land into Chalice... into Force of Will. Not unexpected, but when he deploys a Pyromancer and some cantrips on each of the three consecutive turns, I die to a horde of 1/1 creatures.

5-1

Round 7: Jason with UR Delver
I don't remember much about this match other than that this was about the point where I started making offhand comments to my opponents about how much glorified burn there was in the room. He ends up defeating me in three, losing a game where I established Thopter/Sword

5-2

Round 8: John Johnson with Elves
G1: Ahh, the classic X-2 table in round 8, where dreams come to die. I win the die roll, and start off the match with a powerful mulligan to 5 cards - Tar Pit, colored lands, Chalice, Sword of the Meek. I lead off with a Tar Pit, he leads off with Beta Bayou into foil Japanese DRS, and I play my Chalice. He draws and attacks, then passes. I end up winning the game when he never draws another land and I ensure that no lands manage to go to the graveyard.
G2: Another game fraught with mana screw, he never quite gets off his feet again when I play a Chalice then cast Deluge into his board of a DRS, 2 Dryad Arbor, and a Bayou.

6-2

Round 9: Peter Ingram with WUBG Delver
G1: Still sitting in the land of broken dreams, I find that I'm paired against someone whose name I've actually heard in the past. I mulligan to a weak 6, then die to his Delver + removal for my Strix as I proceed to draw my playset of Ancient Tomb in addition to some other lands. Spells cast this game: Mox Diamond, Baleful Strix.
G2: He casts a Delver on turn 1 again, but when I cast a Blood Moon on turn 2, he doesn't have an answer. I play out a Baleful Strix the turn after, and the game ends quickly from there.
G3: I keep a strong hand with colored mana, Foundry, Sword, and The Abyss. I eventually resolve both halves of my combo, and he quickly succumbs to my torrent of 1/1 fliers.

7-2

I was pretty pumped to make day 2, but also getting very tired of seeing everyone in my vicinity playing Miracles and Maverick while I was stuck facing down a cancerous little 3/2 round after round. I guess I should have anticipated it, but Day 2 contained more of the same.

Round 10: Jeff with Merfolk
G1: I keep a hand on the play with either turn 3 The Abyss or Jace, so when his turn 2 Silvergill Adept fails to find him countermagic for my turn 3 Abyss, he quickly finds himself unable to win the game.
G2: Dack Fayden was the hero of this game. I play an early Dack and plus it out of attack range, so he decides to ignore it and go after my life total instead. Unfortunately for him, Dack takes his Aether Vial on the next turn, and Toxic Deluge wipes his board except for a Mutavault. The manland eventually finds 2 other manland friends which get me down to 1 life, but eventually some Wastelands combined with a Baleful Strix flashed in off of his Aether Vial finish off his board. I start to establish my board behind a Bridge after that, and the game ends shortly after.

8-2

Round 11: Adam with Omnitell
G1: His opening plays include Strand into Island into Brainstorm, so when I cast my Jace on turn 2, I feel pretty good about the game. Unfortunately, the cards Jace fed me didn't include a Force of Will, so when he shows me exactly what he knows on the next turn, my only resistance is a Baleful Strix.
G2: I keep a Chalice on 1 on turn 1 with the possibility of establishing a Chalice on 3 on turn 3 or so depending on my draws, but he ends up having the natural combo on turn 2 with no manipulation.

8-3

Round 12: Andrew with UR Delver
These games were great examples of what each deck is trying to do if met with no resistance.
G1: He leads on a Swiftspear, but has no interaction with my turn 1 Chalice. Strix joins the party after a few turns, and he concedes to my Tezzeret the turn after.
G2: He forces my T1 Chalice, so when he plays out all 4 copies of Swiftspear followed up by some cantrip action, I die very, very swiftly.
G3: On the play, I lay yet another turn 1 Chalice and win the counter war over it. He unfortunately has a 1-land hand, so when I lay a second Chalice on 2 a few turns after, he concedes to me.

9-3

Round 13: Russ with Burn
He is careless about shuffling pregame, and I see a Rift Bolt among other red cards before we even start. This leads me to keep a hand of...
G1: City, 2 Wasteland, Chalice, Crucible, Sword of the Meek, Thopter Foundry. I'm on the play, and his draw can't match up against my turn 1 Chalice in enough time to beat the colored lands that I eventually draw.
G2: I assemble Thopter/Sword very quickly, and his hand of no artifact removal can't really keep up with it.

10-3

Round 14: Sam Black with UR Delver
I'm a bit tilted about these games, so I don't remember much about them. I kept reasonable hands in both games to the best of my memory, but he aggressively countered any play I had, and casually cast all 4 copies of Treasure Cruise in both games.

10-4

Round 15: Alex with UR Delver
G1: My opponent casually remarks that it's sad that we can't draw (why I believed him, I'll never know) as I keep a hand with a quick Jace that would be great against any kind of midrange or control strategy. Unfortunately for me, he Pyroblasts my Jace on turn 2, and runs me over with Swiftspear and Young Pyromancer.
G2: Things look grim as I stare down two Young Pyromancers and some Elemental Tokens, protected by only a solitary Chalice on 1 which came down entirely too late. Fortunately, the gods of variance smile upon me, and feed me Toxic Deluge on the next turn. I grab some previous countered Chalices out of my graveyard with Ruins, and my board of Chalices on 1, 2, and 3 locks him out from casting anything but Treasure Cruise.
G3: Unfortunately, those same gods of variance take as they give, and I'm forced to mulligan to a weak 6 with him on the play. I quickly succumb to his little red guys, and am knocked out of prizes right down to 288th.

The lowest 31 was at 218th, so I'd be walking out $200 richer had I drawn. Or, well, maybe if I had mulliganed some more throughout the course of the tournament.

This deck is built to crush Miracles into the ground, and while it does do that very well, Ancient Tomb doesn't always matchup well against Lightning Bolt even with Chalice in the deck. Young Pyromancer is a serious problem for the deck, as neither EE for 2 or 0 is very attractive when considering our own permanents. The Abyss is great in the matchups where I expected it to be (any SFM Delver variant, anything midrange, Merfolk), but if I can expect to play against UR for half of the tournament, then it's not so great. As I mentioned earlier, I did see quite a bit of those sorts of decks around me throughout the course of the day, so perhaps I'm just thinking in a results-oriented manner when considering the fact that the luck of the draw didn't pair me against those decks. One thing I am semi-confident about, though, is that Jace might not have a place in the deck anymore. I sided it out in almost every round, and often wished that the card was another Dack Fayden. That card seriously overperformed over the course of the day, coming down early and filtering my draws to ensure that my deck functioned as it needed to in any given situation. I even got some serious value off of my opponent's permanents with it, including killing a 5/5 Thopter Foundry/Phantasmal Image in the Merfolk matchup. I acquired another FBB Volcanic Island at the end of the day, so I might try to play around with some kind of build that goes more all-in on Dack and Thopter/Sword. I didn't lose a single game on the weekend where I assembled it, and don't regret cutting a Jace for the second Sword of the Meek at all for the weekend.

Props:
Chalice
Dack Fayden
Thopter/Sword

Slops:
Jace
HelmLine (only sided this in against Omnitell, and didn't draw into it there)

That was a lot of typing. I'd love to hear from anyone else who played the deck in the tournament.

[tinofthefoil]

went 3-3 drop on the day. Saw 3 stoneblade, 2 delver, and 1 burn. Beat delver and burn, lost to stoneblade. Every. Single. Time. chalice for 1 is junk vs TNN and SFM.

[tinofthefoil]

went 3-3 drop on the day. Saw 3 stoneblade, 2 delver, and 1 burn. Beat delver and burn, lost to stoneblade. Every. Single. Time. chalice for 1 is junk vs TNN and SFM.

I also played in the Super sunday series, went 3-2 drop, beat reanimator, dredge, and a (terrible) delver player. lost to Sneak and Show (had the nuts both games, turn 2 sneak w/ force backup...i aint even mad), and STONEBLADEEEEEEEEEE.

[apple713]

lots of stuff and...

Props:
Chalice
Dack Fayden
Thopter/Sword

Slops:
Jace
HelmLine (only sided this in against Omnitell, and didn't draw into it there)

That was a lot of typing. I'd love to hear from anyone else who played the deck in the tournament.

i don't know much about this deck but i've been looking for a "best" or "consistent" Chalice deck. It seems really promising with various tutor type cards and FOW.

I feel like if you were going to board in a different strategy (helm line) that should actually be your first strategy. Combo decks generally have an advantage game 1 because the opponent does not know what to expect. Post board they may dedicate ~5 cards to that combo which could be a huge advantage if that actually gets swapped out for game 2-3.

Additionally Leyline seems to have a lot of application in general. with all the treasure cruise strategies its almost a no brainer to run leyline main. leyline hurts, DRS, loam, treasure cruise, snap caster, reanimator, threshold, KOTR, thopter sword, storm, dredge, all spells.... thats a lot of decks.


idk why is dack so good? its card disadvantage and the deck doesn't seem like its really able to take advantage of it.

[Undomian]

i don't know much about this deck but i've been looking for a "best" or "consistent" Chalice deck. It seems really promising with various tutor type cards and FOW.

I feel like if you were going to board in a different strategy (helm line) that should actually be your first strategy. Combo decks generally have an advantage game 1 because the opponent does not know what to expect. Post board they may dedicate ~5 cards to that combo which could be a huge advantage if that actually gets swapped out for game 2-3.

Additionally Leyline seems to have a lot of application in general. with all the treasure cruise strategies its almost a no brainer to run leyline main. leyline hurts, DRS, loam, treasure cruise, snap caster, reanimator, threshold, KOTR, thopter sword, storm, dredge, all spells.... thats a lot of decks.

idk why is dack so good? its card disadvantage and the deck doesn't seem like its really able to take advantage of it.

I personally play the deck a lot more like a prison deck than a combo deck, so having even more dead cards in my deck is not appealing to me. Maindeck HelmLine adds 5 cards which may or may not be useful in any given matchup; sometimes they win you the game on the spot, and sometimes they do absolutely nothing. We're already inconsistent as a Chalice deck, and I personally prefer not to add even more inconsistency to my deck by having that kind of variance. Builds with MD HelmLine have obviously done well (much better than I've done with my particular build of the deck), but it's not for me.

As for Dack Fayden, I find him to be effective in this deck because we generally care a lot more about the quality of our cards than the quantity of them. Often, you will find yourself drawing extra mana-producing artifacts or other cards that you might not necessarily want in the late game, and Dack allows you to essentially take redraws on them. Without involving shuffle effects (which this deck tends to have a limited number of), Dack actually allows you to see more cards than Jace does, even if he doesn't increase the size of your hand. Finding the right card here is much more important than finding a bunch of wrong ones. We play Chalice, so we don't have the luxury of turning those into other cards with a Brainstorm (Jace activations aside) at a later point in the game. He also improves our matchup against anything with SFM or other artifact-centered plans (Aether Vial). I really like the card, but your results may vary.

[bruizar]

To show that dack fayden is powerful enough for legacy, a list with 2 dack fayden's top 16th at new jersey (wasn't a tezzeret deck)

[Ellomdian]

... also getting very tired of seeing everyone in my vicinity playing Miracles and Maverick while I was stuck facing down a cancerous little 3/2 round after round.


You certainly weren't the only one bemoaning this position. I know quite a few people who faced delver after delver, while all kinds of Miracles and Elves and Dredge nonsense played around them.

Having said that, I also know a few people who got WRECKED by Rando's before they ever saw the Magical equivalent of Kafka's Metamorphosis (hell, the card even accurately conveys the pointlessness of life to opponents too!)





Props:
...
Slops:


Jeeze Undomain, you must me as old as me. Props and Slops at the end of a Tourney Report? What is this, 2003?



idk why is dack so good? its card disadvantage and the deck doesn't seem like its really able to take advantage of it.

Don't ask Undomain to justify his inconsistent 3rd color and terrible pet planeswalker, just try it and see if you like it. :cool:

There is a growing push to start trimming Daze's in the main in UR lists to help out in the mirror, and that bodes nothing but well for Chalice strategies. Having said that, there are suddenly a lot more Null Rods around (thanks Miracles!!! :cry: ) and you may need to start figuring out efficient ways to get rid of them. I ended up turning one into a 5/5 and Damnation'ing for VALUE against BUG in NJ.

[Dr Brian Pepper]

Saw a U/b Tezz player lose at GP NJ and tilt off, was kinda disrespectful but I guess the tilt was strong

[Undomian]

Saw a U/b Tezz player lose at GP NJ and tilt off, was kinda disrespectful but I guess the tilt was strong

I'm sure the Tezz players weren't the only ones tilting at GP Burn.

[Foamy]

Hello, new Tezzerator player here! I went to New Jersey playing Zach's list. I only went 4-5, which was a combination of bad draws, inexperience, and general sloppiness on my part. But hey, that's the best way to learn from one's mistakes, right?

Round 1 - UW Miracles with Energy Field
I resolved Chalice for 1 into Chalice for 2 in both games, but I didn't draw into any action and he dropped Jace a couple turns later, locking me out of the game.

Round 2 - UW Miracles
I manage to get out the Thopter-Sword combo, but he buys time with a few copies of Terminus. Eventually, he glaces over at the clock and scoops with 20 minutes left in the round.
Game 2, he casts Rest in Peace, so I play my Helm and kill him. He says "Welp, that's a thing" and concedes.

Round 3 - Mono-Blue Delver
I think this guy was more of a casual player, because he had cards like Propaganda and Evolving Wilds in his deck. He said "Yeah, Evolving Wilds sets me back a turn, but at least I don't lose life from it. Besides, it's not like I'm going to search for anything else."
Game 1 lasts a while, but I buy a bunch of time to set up my combo with an Ensnaring Bridge out.
Game 2, I assemble the Thopter-Sword combo, and that's all she wrote.

Round 4 - UG Infect
Game 1, I buy some time while he struggles behind my Trinisphere. He soon draws into Viridian Corrupter, however, and I search for Sword of the Meek with Tezzeret the Seeker. He attacks me with a 3/3 Corrupter (Exalted trigger), and I opt not to block. He casts Invigorate before damage, which I don't counter (because it would only put me at 9 poison). He follows it up with a Berserk. I Force it, pitching Tezzeret. He Forces back, pitching another Force. I let his Force resolve, then show him the last two cards in my hand - Force and Thopter Foundry. I go to 9 poison, then untap and search up my second copy of the Foundry with enough mana left over to make three Thopters. In an act of desperation, he swings at me with his Corrupter and his two Inkmoth Nexus, and I make three Thopters to kill all of his infect creatures. I create a wall of Thopters and eventually win.
Game 2, he only finds one infect creature throughout the entire game, but casts three Noble Hierarchs. I begin to lock him out with Trinisphere, Engineered Plague (naming Elf for the Glistener Elf he cast), and Pithing Needle naming Inkmoth Nexus. He beats me down to 9 with Noble Hierarch before I draw Toxic Deluge, which prompts the concession.

Round 5 - Burn
When he handed me his deck of red Ultra-Pro sleeves, I thought to myself, "Heh, he's probably playing Burn or something. ...Nah, I shouldn't typecast him just based on his sleeves."
He leads with a Mountain into a Lava Spike, and I'm just like "Goddammit."
I land a Chalice for 1, but he's already resolved a Swiftspear at this point, so he seals the deal before I can stabilize.
Game 2, I lock him out with a Chalice for 1 into a Chalice for 2, and once I turn one of my Chalices into a 5/5, he quickly scoops.
Game 3, I land another Chalice for 1. He casts Price of Progress to put me to 10, then I take my turn. I have two Underground Seas and a City of Traitors, so I think about my lines of play. I decide to simply cast Baleful Strix and pass, with my rationale being "I only lose if he has another Price of Progress and Fireblast."
...He plays Price of Progress and Fireblast.

Round 6 - Death and Taxes
Game 1 was fairly straightforward - He lands a turn 1 Æther Vial on the play, keeps me off my mana with double Wasteland + Rishadan Port, and beats me down with 2/1s while I draw nothing relevant.
Game 2 was incredibly frustrating. I cast a Chalice for 1 on the second turn, after he drops an Æther Vial. I quickly resolve an Engineered Plague naming Human, and then a Chalice for 2. I cast two Dimir Signets after clearing his board with a Toxic Deluge, and he Vials in Stoneforge Mystic (searching for Sword of Light and Shadow), then untaps and casts + Vials a pair of Serra Avengers. (The Serra Avenger he cast was via a Cavern of Souls naming Angel.) I cast a second Toxic Deluge, and he puts his Sword into play. He Vials in another creature and suits it up with the Sword, returning and recasting Serra Avenger. I draw a THIRD copy of Toxic Deluge and wipe his board yet again, but he topdecks Flickerwisp, flickers my Chalice on 2, and then drops a Phyrexian Revoker naming Dimir Signet. He attaches his Sword to his 3/1 and passes. My draw for the turn? Dimir Signet. At 6 life, I have no choice but to concede and pick up my third loss.

Round 7 - Punishing Jund
I lose game 1 to discard and Bloodbraid Elf, but I manage to disrupt his gameplan enough in games 2 and 3 that I can assemble the Thopter-Sword combo and take the win.
As a side note, turn 2 Liliana of the Veil in three consecutive games is pretty irksome.

Round 8 - Affinity
I win game 1 off of Thopter-Sword along with a sketchy keep by my opponent, but I'm one turn shy of killing him in games 2 and 3. Using Arcbound Ravager to save your Phyrexian Revoker in response to a Toxic Deluge is definitely a thing. So is swinging past an army of Thopters with a Cranial Plating-clad Etched Champion.

Round 9 - Belcher
I win the die roll and start with a Chalice for 1. He looks worried for a second until he glances at his hand, chuckles, and remarks that he doesn't have a single 1-mana spell in his hand. His turn 1 consists of:
Lotus Petal (0)
Lion's Eye Diamond (0)
Taiga
Manamorphose (2)
Pyretic Ritual (2)
Desperate Ritual (2)
Seething Song (3)
Burning Wish (2)
Empty the Warrens (4)
I groan.
Game 2, he mulligans to 5 and does nothing while I kill him.
Game 3, he goes off on turn 1 with Charbelcher, flipping at least 10 cards.

It was a really fun experience overall, and I'm definitely looking forward to playing the deck some more. I'll probably enter the Channel Fireball Legacy 1k at the end of the month with this, and see how well I fare.

[Dr Brian Pepper]

I'm sure the Tezz players weren't the only ones tilting at GP Burn.

lol it wasn't that bad, but yeah hes kinda known so I just found it comical

[Sisyphos]

Round 6 - Death and Taxes
(...)
Game 2 was incredibly frustrating. I cast a Chalice for 1 on the second turn, after he drops an Æther Vial. I quickly resolve an Engineered Plague naming Human, and then a Chalice for 2. I cast two Dimir Signets after clearing his board with a Toxic Deluge,...

How did you resolve your Dimir Signets after landing a Chalice for 2?

[Foamy]

How did you resolve your Dimir Signets after landing a Chalice for 2?

Oh, whoops. I guess I cast the Signets earlier on, and landed the Chalice the turn after the second Deluge.

[sdematt]

Played my list to a 3-1 finish, just narrowly losing to someone borrowing my Jund deck.

I really loved the build. Played against Gold Digger (2-0), Jund (1-2), Painter (2-1), and Miracles/CounterTop Thopters (2-0).

The Thopters match was great. Caltrops is a real beating, folks.

-Matt

[honz]

@Undomian

It sounds to me like you would cut jace in favor of more dack fayden. Have you considered/tried goblin welders at all (specifically out of the sb)? It seems like you could benefit from more graveyard interaction beyond 1x academy ruins and 1x crucible. Or do you feel like that is enough graveyard interaction (including swords), and/or the control MU is good enough?

I would also really like to see notion thief somewhere in the 75 if you are running 3+ dacks. It is so strong against TC and brainstorm, and dack just turns it into a monster. Although subpar in my opinion, chains of mephistopheles would function similarly and goes nicely with you enjoyment of insanely expensive enchantments from legends. Is there a reason you are not running the thief?

Lastly, how was mox diamond?

[Undomian]

@Undomian

It sounds to me like you would cut jace in favor of more dack fayden. Have you considered/tried goblin welders at all (specifically out of the sb)? It seems like you could benefit from more graveyard interaction beyond 1x academy ruins and 1x crucible. Or do you feel like that is enough graveyard interaction (including swords), and/or the control MU is good enough?

I would also really like to see notion thief somewhere in the 75 if you are running 3+ dacks. It is so strong against TC and brainstorm, and dack just turns it into a monster. Although subpar in my opinion, chains of mephistopheles would function similarly and goes nicely with you enjoyment of insanely expensive enchantments from legends. Is there a reason you are not running the thief?

Lastly, how was mox diamond?

That's actually something I've been testing to varying degrees of success. I'm still not sold on the numbers, but MTGO helps a lot with giving this sort of stuff a test run. I used to run a few Welders out of the sideboard, but as good as they were when they worked, they usually just gave my opponents actual targets for their removal. Notion Thief/Chains have also been involved in this testing, though I do not look forward to buying a Chains if I find that that card is actually good.

I've written about Mox Diamond a lot in past posts, but to sum it up, it is simultaneously the best and worst card in the deck. When describing this deck to people, I like to say that it sometimes feels like you're playing Vintage, and it sometimes feels like you're playing Standard. Mox Diamond enables the Vintage-style plays in the deck, and Dack Fayden helps to minimize the impact of those "Standard" draws by allowing you to dump them for other cards later in the game. Aside from allowing an additional four ways to achieve two mana on turn 1 (which, realistically, is where a lot of this deck's power comes from), it also allows me to play with a more ambitious manabase at a smaller cost.

[Ellomdian]

[Mox Diamond]... is simultaneously the best and worst card in the deck.

I think this sums up the biggest difference between the straight UB builds and the Diamond builds - you are rewarded in Power for your concessions to Variance.

[Darkenslight]

Is there ever a point where you would consider Daretti, Scrap Savant as a splash 'walker?

[Undomian]

Is there ever a point where you would consider Daretti, Scrap Savant as a splash 'walker?

I don't think that I'd personally ever play that card in my maindeck. He probably does have some place in Legacy, but its not here. The Welder ability has never been good enough to play outside of the sideboard, and discard-first looting is pretty awful here since we don't want to proactively be Entombing anything. Admittedly, I haven't tested that card, but it just doesn't seem good on paper.

[sdematt]

Might try this list on thursday since I'm not anticipating combo:

4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2 Dack Fayden
2 Tezzeret the Seeker

3 Transmute Artifact
2 Thirst for Knowledge

2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Baleful Strix
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
4 Dimir Signet
2 Talisman of Dominance
1 Helm of Obedience

1 The Abyss
4 Leyline of the Void

2 Academy Ruins
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
2 Wasteland

SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Lodestone Golem
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 Trinisphere
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Caltrops
SB: 1 Crucible of Worlds
SB: 4 Force of Will

I found same games I wasn't digging deep enough, or if I was, I couldn't grab what I needed (Leyline since I had Helm, Abyss, another Walker, etc.). I think Dack has some nice utility and Thirst is bonkers in a deck like this.

[Meekrab]

If you're playing the HelmLine combo maindeck, what do you typically side out against Miracles? I feel like the maindeck is pretty much perfect against them except the 2x Jace.

[sdematt]

I side out the Abyss and 1 Talisman of Dominance for the 2 Engineered Explosives. You're pretty okay against them. Counterbalance lock can suck for getting down the manarocks, but dropping 3's and 4's should be fine.

-Matt

[Meekrab]

I side out the Abyss and 1 Talisman of Dominance for the 2 Engineered Explosives. You're pretty okay against them. Counterbalance lock can suck for getting down the manarocks, but dropping 3's and 4's should be fine.

-Matt
Makes sense, especially since we can usually pay 3+ for EE while still only getting 2 sunburst.

[sdematt]

I went 0-3 on Thursday playing my Dack list. I really liked Dack, but I just didn't draw well at all. Oh well.

-Matt

[Ellomdian]

I went 0-3 on Thursday playing my Dack list. I really liked Dack, but I just didn't draw well at all. Oh well.

-Matt

I don't think I could voluntarily play this deck with 0 FoW between the MD and the SB - it's just too valuable to defend a Chalice or Walker, and you need to have something reactive against Combo. Also, I suspect that the MD Wastelands hurt your consistency much more than they do your opponents - it's a cute trick with the Crucible out of the board, but I feel like you should be making your main combos more resilient, not diluting them with more colorless lands. Same goes for 2x Ruins - Ruins is good enough to justify running one in the main, but 6+ Sol lands means that you don't have a lot of flexibility with colorless sources, and it's Legendary.

I'm also really down on Dack in Legacy TBH - he really doesn't do much in most normal matchups. What are you stealing - ideally, it's going to be a Batterskull, but people probably aren't going to play one into an on-board Dack, and outside of that, there isn't much left for him to take. But, as always, YMMV.

[sdematt]

I play 4 FoW in the board. 2 Dack and 2 Thirst for Knowledge replaced them in the maindeck.

-Matt

[Ellomdian]

I play 4 FoW in the board. 2 Dack and 2 Thirst for Knowledge replaced them in the maindeck.

-Matt

I stand corrected, apparently just did not read the last line of your SB. :confused:

But I also stand dubious of the practicality of the colorless utility lands.

[Shawon]

I played the deck last night at my weekly Legacy. First time I played the deck, and first time I ever played another Legacy deck at a tournament. I've been playing Legacy Affinity with Tezzeret for two years now, so I'm way familiar with Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas. I didn't have time to sleeve up, so I borrowed my friend's Tezz deck. Went 2-1 against (in order): Miracles (2-0), Moggcatcher (2-1), and Cloudpost (0-2).

The deck was a blast to play, and I loved my friend's SB. I believe it's the older build, with Jace instead of Tezzeret the Seeker. IIRC, the SB was this:

1 Trinisphere
2 Duress
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 The Abyss
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Plague
2 Lodestone Golem
Can't remember the last card

Again, the deck was fun, and since I have a lot of experience with artifacts, I naturally brainstormed a million cards on my drive home. I think Torpor Orb is interesting, especially in the Cloudpost matchup because it neuters Primeval Titan and it stops SB Bane of Progress (I should say Jeremiah Rudolph and I play in the same weekly lol, so he's the one with Bane in his SB).

I didn't like Academy Ruins. I think it's a good insurance option if your plan gets derailed by attrition, but ultimately, unless you have 10+ mana and Mindslaver going, I think I'd rather have lands that get dangerous on their own if you're just durdling. Are storage lands like Dreadship Reef something to consider?

I like Matt Pavlic's idea of Dack Fayden a lot. Perhaps, we can run 1-2 Treasure Cruise alongside Dack, since Cruise still costs :u: under Trinisphere?

EDIT: OHHH, if we're splashing red, can we use....... Keranos, God of Storms? That card is godly.

EDIT(1): OHHHH again, Keranos + Ensnaring Bridge = :cool:

[Undomian]

I stand corrected, apparently just did not read the last line of your SB. :confused:

But I also stand dubious of the practicality of the colorless utility lands.

Yeah I have to agree with this. The only reason I feel I can get away with running things like Wasteland in this deck is because of the Diamonds. If you're not playing those to help with your colored mana production, I feel like you will get colorscrewed way more often than usual with all of those extra colorless lands.

[sdematt]

I'm likely going to cut the Wastelands for some sort of either fetch or basic or something. The wastelands, although Korean, have not been stellar. The Academy Ruins are actually quite good. I wouldn't cut them because the attrition you get out of being able to recycle Thopter Foundry, EE, Bridge, Helm, or something, especially against grindy decks, is stellar. It's also god with TfK because you do not have to worry as much about pitching your artifacts.

I like Dack mainly because I found a few problems with the deck. It's a stompy deck - when you draw bad, you draw bad. You need something to dig. Tezzeret digs, but he doesn't hit lands if you need them or enchantments. There have been a few times where I need either more lands, a Leyline, a Tezzeret the Seeker, or the Abyss to seal a game, but Tezzeret doesn't let me draw it. Dack does let you filter a bit better. I REALLY like Thirst for Knowledge, though. That card is great in this deck.

I love the idea of Keranos, but we're already playing so many cards in the 3-5 mana range. The deck is already clunky enough. I think if you weren't playing Leyline-Helm in the maindeck, then I'd totally be on that win condition. It doesn't fit in as well when you do not have Top, but alas, life uhh uhh uhh finds a way.

-Matt

[Darkenslight]

I'm likely going to cut the Wastelands for some sort of either fetch or basic or something. The wastelands, although Korean, have not been stellar. The Academy Ruins are actually quite good. I wouldn't cut them because the attrition you get out of being able to recycle Thopter Foundry, EE, Bridge, Helm, or something, especially against grindy decks, is stellar. It's also god with TfK because you do not have to worry as much about pitching your artifacts.

-Matt

Would you consider playing Ghost Quarter over the Wastes? I have a feeling that they could be highly relevant, considering that most decks only play around 2-3 basics.

[Undomian]

I'm likely going to cut the Wastelands for some sort of either fetch or basic or something. The wastelands, although Korean, have not been stellar. The Academy Ruins are actually quite good. I wouldn't cut them because the attrition you get out of being able to recycle Thopter Foundry, EE, Bridge, Helm, or something, especially against grindy decks, is stellar. It's also god with TfK because you do not have to worry as much about pitching your artifacts.

I like Dack mainly because I found a few problems with the deck. It's a stompy deck - when you draw bad, you draw bad. You need something to dig. Tezzeret digs, but he doesn't hit lands if you need them or enchantments. There have been a few times where I need either more lands, a Leyline, a Tezzeret the Seeker, or the Abyss to seal a game, but Tezzeret doesn't let me draw it. Dack does let you filter a bit better. I REALLY like Thirst for Knowledge, though. That card is great in this deck.

I love the idea of Keranos, but we're already playing so many cards in the 3-5 mana range. The deck is already clunky enough. I think if you weren't playing Leyline-Helm in the maindeck, then I'd totally be on that win condition. It doesn't fit in as well when you do not have Top, but alas, life uhh uhh uhh finds a way.

-Matt

As discussed above, Wasteland probably doesn't belong in a build of the deck without Mox Diamond. We already have issues with consistency in our colored mana sources, so there's no need to increase that kind of variance without compensating somehow for it. The second Ruins is interesting, though I'm not sure how much I want to risk having two of those in my opening hand without a way to get rid of the second one easily. I think of this like having two City of Traitors, though that card is more of a necessary evil than Ruins is.

I'm happy to see that someone else also likes Dack in the deck. I don't think I'd ever replace any of my copies with Thirst, though. I think on average a resolved Dack will allow you to see more cards than Thirst ever will, though it does not provide you with any kind of card advantage. Plus, there's the added utility of his other abilities, which come up more often than one might expect.

Keranos is kind of a cool idea, but I (personally) don't like him for the same reason I tend to edge away from playing with Tezzeret the Seeker. As dumb as it sounds, I find 5 mana to be infinitely more than 4 in this deck - at least with the manabase I like to play with. I played a lot of games with a Batterskull in my deck awhile back where it just sat and rotted in my hand while I had 4 mana onboard. Keranos is a different card, for sure, but I think it would test similarly...


Would you consider playing Ghost Quarter over the Wastes? I have a feeling that they could be highly relevant, considering that most decks only play around 2-3 basics.

What advantage does Ghost Quarter give you over Wasteland? In the build(s) of this deck that actually play Wasteland, the card is more for taking out important utility lands rather than playing some kind of tempo game by manascrewing your opponent. That does happen in some small percentage of games, but you're basically never going to want to target a basic land while piloting this deck.

[sdematt]

Agreed. I think what you really want is either more basics, or more fetches, or more duals. I don't think I want depletion this or that. I just want efficiency.

-Matt

[Shawon]

Matt, I found another problem I noticed playing the deck last night was getting a two-colored combo of :u:/:b: on time. I got myself down to 10 life from TOmbs, with Helm on the board and Leyline (drawn) in my hand with no access to :b::b:. My Miracles opponent last night was able to Miracle-Entreat for 4 Angels, but I luckily topdecked an Urborg to give myself enough mana to Helm combo and win.

I know the idea is easy to dismiss, but I think Dreadship Reef can actually help the deck with its mana issue, while being stronger the more turns have passed. What's appealing about the amassing of surplus mana is that it makes Transmute Artifact much more affordable and versatile since you can more mana to spend in transmuting.

Of course, Wasteland can undo the work done by Reef, but the deck already runs a lot of nonbasics anyway.

[sdematt]

I'll give it a try tonight and see what's what.

-Matt

[sdematt]

This is what I'll be trying going forward:

4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
3 Transmute Artifact
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Baleful Strix
2 Academy Ruins
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
4 Dimir Signet
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
2 Talisman of Dominance
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Trinisphere
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 4 Lodestone Golem
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Caltrops
SB: 4 Force of Will
SB: 1 The Abyss

The thing is, there's tons of times where you do want Trinisphere in the maindeck, similar to the GB Plug deck. You don't have to put it down Turn 1, and it's still valuable afterwards. I ended up cutting Dack since 3 colours was beginning to be a pain to try and fetch out, and he was essentially Faithless Looting most of the time. You want non-artifact dig many times to hit land drops, Transmutes, and others. Trinisphere slows everything down (mostly your opponent), and Jace provides both dig and is a win condition on his own. Tezz isn't a win condition on his own, but it does make it easier to find Thopters to blow them out.

Caltrops and Crypt out of the board may just become Revokers, and I'm toying with the idea of 1 Top in the main. There are times you just want to dig, and you don't always want Chalice at 1. As well, it's easily fetchable through a Chalice at 1 with Transmute Artifact.

Ratchet Bomb is now there since Transmuting for EE is bad unless you want it on zero. However, EE had advantages in that if you have the mana, you can blow it for 0-2 on the turn you have it, so I'm splitting them 1 and 1.

Just thought I'd keep everything updated.

-Matt

[Arksz]

Matt

Played the updated list you have at TOGIT ended up splitting the top 4. I really love thirst would you swap 1 trinisphere for another thirst? Or just cut a sphere down since the build has 61 cards. I ran the deck with 1 less land and it seemed to do well. Only got mana screwed once, which you can chalk up to variance.

[sdematt]

I would say cut a land for a Thirst if you wanted another, that's a fair call. Urborg is the worst offender here.

-Matt

[keys]

Thirst seems bonkers in this deck. Imagine if Dragon Stompy had a 2R draw three, discard one ...

[sdematt]

Thirst seems bonkers in this deck. Imagine if Dragon Stompy had a 2R draw three, discard one ...

I'm not disputing, it's just that Trinisphere is also good. I agree with cutting a land.

-Matt

[Arksz]

Gaddock teeg main deck
Man he is good
Pretty much locks down everything in my hand preboard

[sdematt]

I agree. I love Gaddock Teeg and play him often, but he's hard to beat, I agree. We don't have many ways around him. Out of the board is much easier.

-Matt

[Arksz]

Played in the local weekly and split first.
2-0 vs Dredge
2-0 vs 12 Post
2-1 vs Miracles
Draw first vs Burn, needed to leave and couldn't play it out.

So playing Matt's list
-1 academy ruins
-1 Trinipshere
+1 Thirst for Knowledge

Academy ruins is a great card but its really slow. We have so many must answer threats I don't feel its needed. The awkwardness in the manabase is already painful enough. I love trinisphere but I couldn't think of another card to cut for the third thirst for knowledge. Really enjoy playing this deck! It can get some awkward draws, but it can still get there. The look on my miracles opponents face when I land a chalice followed up by Trinisphere is priceless.

[Bobmans]

Two month's ago i tried a UBW version (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26246-Deck-8Tezz-dec-UB-Tezzeret&p=840086&viewfull=1#post840086) of this deck. Removing CotV for Counterbalance, Sensei's Divining Top and Enlightened Tutor. Now with some spare time due to the holidays i am gonna sleeve and test the deck once more and give it a spin at the upcoming local.

Although it looked a bit weird on paper i felt that this version had the ability to pull itself out of situations much better then the original UB version, which leans so heavily on CotV. Often times the UB version can't afford to fall behind. Plus, outside of Thirst for Knowledge and Transmute Artifact (being near Tinker powerlevel), has no library manipulation and most of the times went to "topdeckmode".

The version i build has Sensei's Divining Top, Is a artifact and makes topdeck mode SOO much better. Next to Tezz it is even more incredible giving a fresh 3 every turn. Or just make top a 5/5 beatstick.

Also i run Enlightened Tutor, which not only fetches artifacts, also enchantments (The Abyss!!). It makes the list slightly faster and more flexible (adaptibility).

So during the first testing run i had 2 Transmute's, 3 Counterbalances, 3 SDT's and 3 E.Tutor's. The biggest conclusion was that Transmute's didn't do anything other then exile for FoW and i wanted more Top, CB and E.Tutor. Also CotV on the board was kinda meh, and 4x LotV was overkill.

So since we can run white i just wanted to add a Karakas and since some lists run Vendilion Clique on the board anyway i thought, why not, It's Christmas anyway.

Mainboard 61 (22 lands)

4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Baleful Strix

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Enlightened Tutor

4 Force of Will

3 Counterbalance
1 Rest in Peace
1 Energy Field
1 The Abyss

1 Helm of Obedience
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Ensnaring Bridge

4 Mox Diamond
2 Dimir Signet

2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Academy Ruins
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Karakas

SB: 1 Counterbalance
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 4 Lodestone Golem
SB: 1 Trinisphere
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Venser, Shaper Savant

[Arksz]

I like the idea, thopter/sword combo does not work with rest in peace. If you drop the rest in peace you need to drop the energy field.

[Bobmans]

I like the idea, thopter/sword combo does not work with rest in peace. If you drop the rest in peace you need to drop the energy field.
Agreed, but both "combo's" attack from a different angle. I can live with that sword is shut down once rip resolves, but resolving rip usually means you getting either helm or energy field and lockout your opponent entirely. Or you can just dig up thopter/sword while being protected by energy field and win from there. So many things going on that you can easily adjust depending on the MU and on how the game develops. Leyline of the void dodges the problem you mention at the cost of 3 additional slots and losing the potential of energy field in the process. Testing will probably give a better view on how to move on.

[Arksz]

I'll give it a try on cockatrice see how it goes. Just not big on having so many dead cards once you resolve a RIP. Moxes + dead combo to dig through seems painful.

[Bobmans]

I'll give it a try on cockatrice see how it goes. Just not big on having so many dead cards once you resolve a RIP. Moxes + dead combo to dig through seems painful.
One can always try to squeeze in Lotv and drop rip+energy field and maybe 1 fow for a 3/3 split between lotv and fow.
The deck plays pretty weird. Grindy. I often feel i was falling behind my opponent and then somehow turned around the game with some smart play that unfold during the MU.
T1 Counterbalance is fun to.

[sdematt]

I think Esper Thopters can work, since I did used to play it. Feel free to let us know how your testing goes.

As for UB, I agree not having Top is a huge problem. I would love to still play Top and Transmute for it (but again, slots are tight, what do we cut?) but it's not super feasible.

-Matt

[Bobmans]

I think Esper Thopters can work, since I did used to play it. Feel free to let us know how your testing goes.

As for UB, I agree not having Top is a huge problem. I would love to still play Top and Transmute for it (but again, slots are tight, what do we cut?) but it's not super feasible.

-Matt
Last weekend i took UB Tezz with Leyline + Helm to a tournament. Eventually going 2-3 giving away 5th round. I was uppaired and my opponent had guaranteed top8 if hed won.
2-0 DnT
2-1 Ant
0-2 Ant
1-2 Mud
0-2 URwb Pyrodude (gave this one away but we played anyway, Thopter+Sword is the way to go here)
I won 3 games with leyline + helm.

The deck felt really stupid strong when you have the nuts hand, but you can easily fall back on topdeck mode which is pretty bad often. So yeah SDT would be a solid choice. Also i was screwed on coloured mana twice and lost those games. This deck mulligans horribly. You really need a solid 7 because the lack of manipulation.

All in all, while this deck is probably the most awesome deck in Legacy it still misses an edge.

Edit: just a brainfart, but maybe this deck is stuck between leyline+helm and thopter+sword+tezzBeats. Maybe if we completely cut one of them and focus more on enable the main combo it would gain consistancy.

[sdematt]

Last weekend i took UB Tezz with Leyline + Helm to a tournament. Eventually going 2-3 giving away 5th round. I was uppaired and my opponent had guaranteed top8 if hed won.
2-0 DnT
2-1 Ant
0-2 Ant
1-2 Mud
0-2 URwb Pyrodude (gave this one away but we played anyway, Thopter+Sword is the way to go here)
I won 3 games with leyline + helm.

The deck felt really stupid strong when you have the nuts hand, but you can easily fall back on topdeck mode which is pretty bad often. So yeah SDT would be a solid choice. Also i was screwed on coloured mana twice and lost those games. This deck mulligans horribly. You really need a solid 7 because the lack of manipulation.

All in all, while this deck is probably the most awesome deck in Legacy it still misses an edge.

Edit: just a brainfart, but maybe this deck is stuck between leyline+helm and thopter+sword+tezzBeats. Maybe if we completely cut one of them and focus more on enable the main combo it would gain consistancy.

I think Crystal Ball might be worth trying. My friend played Mono Red Control, so a similar vein, but instead using Bridges, Koth, etc. He was playing 4 Bridge and it was extremely strong, and so were his Crystal Balls.

Might be worth checking out if we're interested in running Chalice and still feel the need for manipulation. i think if you're going to cut a combo, cut Leyline+Helm to try it first, since Thopter is easier to rebuild and both pieces are artifacts, and therefore, tutorable with the current shell.

-Matt

[bruizar]

and so were his Crystal Balls.
that just sounded dirty

[sdematt]

that just sounded dirty

It was meant to ;)

-Matt

[Undomian]

I brought my (updated) Grixis list to an IQ this past weekend, and ended up getting second with it out of a field of I think 28. The deck feels extremely strong, and I plan on running it back this weekend at the Premiere IQ (since that's what they are now) in Colombus this weekend. For reference, this is where I'm at currently...


4 Baleful Strix

3 Dack Fayden
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

4 Force of Will
2 Transmute Artifact
1 Dig Through Time

4 Chalice of the Void
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ensnaring Bridge

4 Mox Diamond
2 Dimir Signet

1 Academy Ruins
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
2 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland
60 cards

SB:
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Blood Moon
1 Whipflare
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Misdirection
1 Trinisphere
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Lodestone Golem

I've since shaved down to 60 cards, something that was made easier by cutting Jace from the deck entirely. I'd long considered the 3rd Jace to be the 61st card anyway, so it was an easy enough change. The only card I find myself really unsure of is the Trinisphere out of the sideboard. I think that slot could perform better as another Whipflare or a Flusterstorm, depending on what I see around the room. I unfortunately used a digital tablet to keep track of life totals for this event, so my memory of what I played against is really, really hazy. I do remember that I beat Miracles, UR Delver, and UR Delver before double drawing into top 8 at 3rd seed, and beating Miracles followed by UWR Delver before getting murdered by Elves in the finals. I probably could have actually won the finals had I not been so cautious in game 1, as he was apparently not playing a Reclamation Sage in his MD and basically told me as much when he Zenithed for X=2 on turn 3 with 4 mana available to my board of Chalice at 1. I cast Transmute for the other half of Thopter/Sword (which I thought would allow me to even block and live at 1 through NO on his next turn) on the next turn instead of just playing safe and grabbing Bridge, but unfortunately I miscounted the damage ( I had to fetch somewhere in this, and I think I forgot about it...) and was hit for exactly lethal. We had split the prizes, so I ended up walking away with a nice prize, but the envelope would have been nice. Maybe next month.

[Lysandros]

Undomian -- I've been toying with a similar list ever since Dack Fayden was spoiled. I wanted to jam Painter/Grindstone into it, but I don't think it works all that well. Your list is interesting. One thing: you're running Engineered Explosives and Academy Ruins....somehow, someway, Intuition needs to be in this list, don't you think? Like old school RUG Lands lists.

[Undomian]

Undomian -- I've been toying with a similar list ever since Dack Fayden was spoiled. I wanted to jam Painter/Grindstone into it, but I don't think it works all that well. Your list is interesting. One thing: you're running Engineered Explosives and Academy Ruins....somehow, someway, Intuition needs to be in this list, don't you think? Like old school RUG Lands lists.

Intuition could certainly be sweet, but I've never tried it. I'll have to give it a shot sometime. Have you tested it at all?

As for Painter/Stone, while it could be okay, I really do believe that the best reason to play this deck is the strength of Chalice on 1 - something that Grindstone doesn't play well with. I could see maybe sideboarding it in against matchups where Chalice isn't at its best, like Jund or something, but it's difficult to assemble the combo against decks like that.

[Bobmans]

Undomian -- I've been toying with a similar list ever since Dack Fayden was spoiled. I wanted to jam Painter/Grindstone into it, but I don't think it works all that well. Your list is interesting. One thing: you're running Engineered Explosives and Academy Ruins....somehow, someway, Intuition needs to be in this list, don't you think? Like old school RUG Lands lists.

I have tried Intuition and it proved to be a rather akward card to play. Let's say you need a EE to sweep to board and you dig up EE, Academy Ruins and a Crucible of Worlds. Your opponents chooses the EE, how would you get back at doing tricks with Ruins since you lost both cards in the process? Also since this deck run this in 1-off's having one of the pieces on the board or grave already makes it even more difficult to get a solid pile. Sure it is a house when you dig up 3 Foundry's or 2 Swords plus something. But it would require to take a look at the list in a different way to make it work. I do agree it looks juice, but it would need some thought to get it to work.

[Undomian]

So, an interesting card was spoiled earlier...

http://i.imgur.com/Q37DkXv.jpg

I've often said that Dack is very much like an enchantment that lets me loot on my upkeep, which is something that hasn't really existed up to this point. Now, though, they've finally printed it. With upside.

It's blue, it draws cards, and it also randomly hoses burn and Abrupt Decay. I'm very tempted to try this out.

[apple713]

So, an interesting card was spoiled earlier...

http://i.imgur.com/Q37DkXv.jpg

I've often said that Dack is very much like an enchantment that lets me loot on my upkeep, which is something that hasn't really existed up to this point. Now, though, they've finally printed it. With upside.

It's blue, it draws cards, and it also randomly hoses burn and Abrupt Decay. I'm very tempted to try this out.

whats amazing is that the card is nuts in multiples.

[Undomian]

I ran back the same 75 I've been playing in SCG Columbus this past weekend to a 6-2 finish just out of top 16. Unfortunately my tiebreakers were awful, so I didn't get to go home with any of that sweet internet fame. Those awful tiebreakers came from the first few rounds, which were a complete circus.

R1: Goblins (0-2)
Seriously, who the fuck still plays this shit. I've only ever won against Goblins with this deck in an event once, so no surprises here.

R2: Maverick (2-1)
This guy played a Godsend (yeah, that one) in game 3.... Which I promptly stole with Dack, turned into a 5/5 with Tezzeret, and attacked him with.

R3: RG Punishing Burning Elves??? (1-2)
I knew what this guy was on going into the match because he had just defeated one of my carmates (on Miracles) in the previous round. In a word, this match was ridiculous. My Chalice followed by 5/5 beaters was good enough in game 1, but in games 2 and 3, his deck showed his real plan. In game 2, he played a bunch of lords (Priest/Archdruid), and after I Forced his Natural Order, he cast Burning Wish off of his Groves. Getting fucking Banefire. Banefire for 14 sealed the deal. In game 3, I had him locked under a Bridge (which he apparently had zero ways to destroy) with Force backup thanks to his Archdruids. That is, until he case two Burning Wish in a turn and once again, Banefired me to death. This guy sat down near me in the next round as well, where I watched him defeat Belcher's 14 Goblins by casting Blasphemous Act off of his Burning Wish. I mean, that's fine in Elves, right? /salt

R4: ANT (2-0)
His turn 1 Sea into Preordain was a pretty good incidator for my turn 1 Chalice on 1 and Chalice on 0.

R5: UR Delver (2-0)

R6: Big Red (2-1)
This deck is scary as hell to play against, but luckily he never found his out (Pyromancy) in the games where I managed to find my Bridges.

R7: Burn (2-1)

R8: UR Delver (2-0)

The final standings were disappointing for us, as two of us ended up just out of top 16, another two just outside of top 32, and one of us drew into 9th. The Skyline Chili trip afterward kind of made up for it though, that stuff is delicious.

[sdematt]

I think Monastery Siege is a VERY interesting possibility for this deck. The card you're most worried about is actually Deed, but since so few play it, you're worried about Decay. Having a card that is good in multiples like this is very rare. You want a Crystal ball type card, but looting still isn't bad at all, as we can see by the playability of Thirst for Knowledge. When I played Dack, you were basically only looting with him anyway.

I've found recently, the Helm kill has been a bit cumbersome, and most of the time, you try to lock people out with Bridge and usually just die by getting burned out or Bridge dies, etc. Plus, Tezzeret can't find Leyline, and the card is poor in multiples. Thopter combo is VERY good, and I think I'd like to focus on that combo in this deck since it is better. Life gain, tokens attack through a small hand size with Bridge, and the pieces are both recurable.

I would want to try the following:

1 Tezzeret the Seeker
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

2 Talisman of Dominance
3 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Trinisphere
3 Transmute Artifact
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Baleful Strix
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
4 Dimir Signet
4 Monastery Siege


2 Academy Ruins
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Seat of the Synod
2 City of Traitors


SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 4 Lodestone Golem
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 4 Force of Will
SB: 1 The Abyss
SB: 1 Ratchet Bomb

This could give a reason to lose the Lodestones from the board, since Siege can be a tax anyway (not exactly the same, but you know what I mean).

Maybe it's garbage, maybe not. I'll start testing with it.

-Matt

[Ellomdian]

I'm really not excited with the amount of Monastery Siege is effectively a blank card, especially when considering if it's MD playable.

But if everyone is hyped about a loot at the start of their turn, sure, go nuts.

[tescrin]

The card, notice, does actual nothing to D&T or most Delver outside of about 4 cards (most of which are 1-drops), does almost nothing to Elves, and does nothing to Miracles. If you want a looting effect I feel like Scroll Rack is just better instead. If you want anti-combo/targeting/protection, there are better cards. Even if some of those are good MUs, I think adding mediocre 3-drops to it sounds bad.

The (2) extra clause is neat though I'd caution that a lot of stuff in legacy is unaffected:
-Jace/Lily
-Revoker/Needle
-EE/Deed/Deluge/etc.
-Wasteland
-Price of Progress
-Dudes attacking you
-Counterspells
-QPM and Elf-who-destroys stuff
-stuff?

I don't think it's good burn or combo protection nor are the BG decks going to be slowed enough. I think Matt's deck would be straight better with those 4 slots being 2x Foundry, 2x Sword. The combo it's quite good with any number of cards in the deck and between it and Bridge you stop most fair decks (and some unfair) in their tracks.

It's worth noting that Foundry also "protects" artifacts you have. I feel like this is overlooked due to the combo and that people don't realize how powerful saccing something targetted by Decay is while getting a dude out of it. Put another way; unless your opponent pops your foundry; it says "Whenever an opponent would destroy an artifact, instead sac it and get a 1/1 flyer and gain 1 life." With all the ramp the deck has, you could have games where you're plopping thopters as soon as turn 2. The thopter combo offsets the lifeloss the deck has, is a win con, and fuels Tezz's ult a ton.

[Goose]

I think Monastery Siege is a VERY interesting possibility for this deck. The card you're most worried about is actually Deed, but since so few play it, you're worried about Decay. Having a card that is good in multiples like this is very rare. You want a Crystal ball type card, but looting still isn't bad at all, as we can see by the playability of Thirst for Knowledge. When I played Dack, you were basically only looting with him anyway.

I've found recently, the Helm kill has been a bit cumbersome, and most of the time, you try to lock people out with Bridge and usually just die by getting burned out or Bridge dies, etc. Plus, Tezzeret can't find Leyline, and the card is poor in multiples. Thopter combo is VERY good, and I think I'd like to focus on that combo in this deck since it is better. Life gain, tokens attack through a small hand size with Bridge, and the pieces are both recurable.

I would want to try the following:

1 Tezzeret the Seeker
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

2 Talisman of Dominance
3 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Trinisphere
3 Transmute Artifact
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Baleful Strix
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
4 Dimir Signet
4 Monastery Siege


2 Academy Ruins
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Seat of the Synod
2 City of Traitors


SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 4 Lodestone Golem
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 4 Force of Will
SB: 1 The Abyss
SB: 1 Ratchet Bomb

This could give a reason to lose the Lodestones from the board, since Siege can be a tax anyway (not exactly the same, but you know what I mean).

Maybe it's garbage, maybe not. I'll start testing with it.

-Matt
Is this deck something you would really recommend building with how the format is now? I'm not saying this exact list but in general. I'm currently playing Reanimator and it's fun but I know the fun will only last so long playing a simple combo deck like that all the time. Especially when my playgroup is as smalls as it is haha. I really enjoy prison decks and I loved UB Tezz when he was in standard a few years ago. So I guess I'm just kinda looking for a change of pace while still playing with my Seas and Forces. Any input would be greatly appreciated!

[sdematt]

I think if you already own Underground Seas, the rest of the stuff is easy to pick up (well, Seas and fetches).

Sol lands are always a good investment and are used in a bunch of other Sol Land decks. I think this is a fun deck to play, and has some game to it. If you had to buy everything from scratch, I might not recommend it since Stompy decks aren't always good, and are very finicky since you can't fix your mana/draws.

TL:DR If you have Seas, Forces, and Fetches, the rest is easy to get and not super expensive. Run it with proxies a few times and see what you think :)

-Matt

[Bobmans]

you can't fix your mana/draws.

This... is the only problem the deck has. Aside from that, it is a blast to play. And it is very powerful to. It has the tools to fight combo, with Chalice of the Void and Leyline of the Void (main). While against creature based decks Thopter+Swords and recurring EE/Ratchet Bomb usually does the trick. It can win out of nowhere with Tezz, AoB ultimate or just beats with a 5/5 Chalice of the Void. The only times i found myself losing was when i couldn't fix mana or had really bad topdecks. And that happens pretty often.

Thinking of which, has someone ever tried a UBG splash for Sylvan Library, Life from the Loam? This also makes Abrupt Decay/Pernicious Deeds,Golgari Charm available.

[Higgs]

Stompy decks...

Call me nitpicky but I don't like how people categorize Stompy decks nowadays. Yes I know that historical Sol Land+Chalice decks like Sea Stompy, Dragon Stompy etc. sort of established this convention but if you go further back in history actual Stompy decks are pure dumb weenie aggro decks like the Mono Green 10-land Stompy.
http://archive.wizards.com/sideboard/article.asp?x=Worlds2001\441extendeddecks (Ctrl+F for Ben Robin)

/derail

[sdematt]

But when I want to refer to 10 land stompy, I usually do, since I did play that deck in 2005 (why? Friend in high school wanted to learn Legacy. Survival was too complex).

But it's a Sol Land deck. My points are still valid.

I was thinking something like this based on your suggestions:

4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
3 Transmute Artifact
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Baleful Strix
2 Academy Ruins
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
4 Dimir Signet
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
2 Talisman of Dominance
3 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Seat of the Synod
3 Trinisphere
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Volcanic Island

SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 4 Force of Will
SB: 1 The Abyss
SB: 1 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 4 Sphere of Resistance
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Whipflare

Basically, cut the Sieges and instead jam another Foundry, another Sword, and some Deluges main. Not having removal has sucked when I did some testing on Friday and Saturday.

However, I did brew some more stuff when fiddling around with the Thopter Combo:

3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Transmute Artifact
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Academy Ruins
4 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Moat
1 Humility
3 Supreme Verdict
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Island
3 Plains
2 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Azorius Signet
3 Counterbalance

SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 The Abyss
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Pithing Needle

Work in progress, of course. Jace could just be Tezzeret as well.

-Matt

[Undomian]

I think you're getting into something entirely different with that second decklist. That looks a lot like a deck I might have played against in like 2010 or something. That said, I dont think you need sol lands and mana rocks in a deck like that. Your curve could also use a bit of reworking to allow Countertop to be a bit better, I think.

[Ellomdian]

Actually got to go out and PLAY last night. A local store is running a weekly Legacy event on Monday nights, so hopefully once things shake up next week post-cruise, I'll have a chance to tune the SB more.

- Rd 1 vs ANT-

I kept a risky hand with a CoT and a Tomb, but T1 Chalice on 1 on the play is good. We play draw-discard-go for a few turns (with his 'Discards' being casting cantrips into the Chalice) and I manage to make some developmental plays, but the game ends with me casting Chalice on 0. Pre-board, the matchup is particularly strong as their ability to deal with permanents like Chalice is limited.

Board: - Abyss, Damnation, Bridge, and 4 Strix, + 3 Lodestone Golem, 1 Relic, 1 Grafdiggers, 1 Notion Thief, 1 Null Broach.

G2 I have T1 Chalice, but also have a FoW in case things go poorly. I set up a quick Thopter/Sword (I like keeping in the combo against Storm as it's equally as good against Empty as the Lifegain is against Tendrils) and the game is over when I pass 25 life. This matchup tends not to be terribly exciting.

1-0 2-0

- Rd 2 vs DnT-

I keep a hand on the draw with T2 4 Mana, Thirst, The Abyss, and a Strix. This can be dangerous as it's really cold to fast combo, and it's not fast enough to deal with UR's fast draws, but I like keeping hands that are strong against control and disruption as the top of my deck is better on average than the top of theirs. T1 he Plains into Vial, and I have a pretty good idea what I am up against. I T1 Tomb into Talisman, and he T2's Wasteland to break me up. I play a land, he Vials in Thalia on his turn, I play City and jam The Abyss. He looks amused. He spends a few turns playing Stoneforges and activating for Batterskull to keep the Thalia afloat, saccing the Germ (and blinking the Batterskull with Flickerwisp) but a couple of Strixes on my side keep the game going, and he is obliged to swing at random Walkers I put down, keeping my life total comfortably high. He scoops at 30+ life, with me at 17. He mentioned that he doesn't like to scoop without seeing a win on the board, but that he had seen a JTMS and a Tezz, and he felt like it was pretty inevitable.

Board: - 4 CotV, 1 Sword of the Meek, 1 JTMS, + 1 Toxic Deluge, 1 Bridge, 1 EE, 1 Pithing Needle, 2 Misdirection. (Shaving a Sword can be dangerous if they manage to RiP it, but I feel like leaning on Thopters G2 makes you much more susceptible to Phyrexian Revoker. Once Cruise's ban goes into effect next week, I will probably be taking the Sun Droplets out of my board, and I can look at bringing E Plague's back in.)

I keep a hand with City, Tomb, Signet, Darkslick, Tezz, Thirst, and Strix. T1 he plays Plains into Vial, I set up a T2 Tezz, he plays Port into Thalia, I rip The Abyss, play City to pay for it, and this game is MUCH quicker than the first one since he doesn't have Stoneforge to chain into Germs.

2-0 4-0

- Rd 3 vs MUD -

My notes are much worse for this game - I knew someone was on MUD in the room, but I did not know it was him, and he knew I was on Tezz. G1 I mull to 6 on the Draw, he plays Tomb into Monolith, I Force it. T2 he plays Glimmerpost into Metalworker, T3 he hits me with a Hasty Wurmcoil wearing Greaves. I manage to deflect it with a Strix the 2nd time it attacks, and get a Bridge down with 2 cards in hand. He makes a Staff of Nin, I get Tezz online and set up Thopter sword. He Karns the Foundry, I sac it. I hit the Karn with 2 tokens, 1 wearing a sword, he Staff's one, I play my own Staff and finish the Karn. He plays Spine of Ish Shah to eat my Ruins, and makes a Chalice on 2 and a Trinisphere. At this point, between Glimmerposts, Vesuva's, and the Wurms he is at 30+ life, and he's drawing 2 cards a turn with ~10 mana available, I have ~8 Mana and am doing the same (plus Tezz, but Tezz is stuck on 5 because of Staff.) My lines are to try to Tezz multiple times, to set up behind a JTMS, and potentially put Chalice on 7 (and yes, that is a REACH...) He draws the 2nd Karn, eats my bridge, and I decide to concede rather than try to slog it out through another Karn.

Board: The TO says we have 17 mins left in the round, and I am not happy. The fastest wins against MUD are either going to be a quick Tezz ult or a JTMS Ult, so I board -4 Chalice, 1 Abyss, +1 Deluge, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Bridge, 1 Null Broach, 1 Relic (just for the draw.)

I keep a 7 that has T2 JTMS +2 with me at 14 (thanks Tomb, Talisman, and Fetch...) that puts his Forgemaster to the bottom, and he T1's Tomb, T2's Cavern of Souls naming Horror into Revoker naming JTMS. He T3's Cavern naming Golem into Lodestone, and T4 Plays another Revoker naming Tezz. I do not see a Damnation or Deluge, and that is the ballgame.

I probably let the time constraint dictate my lines too much, but in the end, MUD does what I do, only bigger. This deck doesn't really play well when your opponent is going bigger than you. Makes me reminisce of the days when I was the one playing Wurms and Karns.

2-1 4-2

- Rd 4 vs Miracles -

At this point, my brain is scrambled from the MUD matchup. I keep a slow, bad hand that doesn't do anything broken (T3 4-drop) and my opponent T1's Top into T2 Counterbalance. He has a JTMS floating on top for mine T3, and after shuffling for a fetch, playing the JTMS, and Brainstorming he has a 2 on top for my Transmute. I scoop.

Part of me still is mad that he had a JTMS for mine, since Miracles just does not have that many 4-drops, but my hand was bad and I was punished.

Board: - 4 Strix, 1 Damnation, 1 The Abyss, 1 Bridge, + 3 Lodestone Golem, 1 Notion Thief, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Null Broach, 1 EE. I know this is a relatively controversial board strategy, as a fast Entreat will likely just beat you if you aren't at least halfway to Thopters, but most Miracles pilots I have played against go even more Control post board.

I set up T2 Tezz on the Play, he opens on Mountain and has the REB. T3 Lodestone, he EOT's Swords it. I was a little tilted that he leaves in Swords, as he watched my game against Storm earlier, and one of the benefits of this deck is that some of the SB slots are Gotchas. He has FoW pitching Ponder for my JTMS (all of the above naturally, no Brainstorms) and he sets up V Clique (seeing my hand of Transmute x2 and Delta, taking nothing) into Counterbalance, natural flipping a CB to my attempt to Transmute. He plays JTMS on his turn, and that's the Ballgame.

2-2 4-4

I'm disappointed with my play against Miracles. I feel that it's a strong matchup for Tezz, as they have a lot of deadweight G1, but Top is still stupid good and it will punish hands that don't have good T1/T2 plays. My keep G1 was bad, and because of it, his strong G2 hand was enough to clinch the match. It's easy to gripe about him having it all, because this matchup is extremely biased to the cards available in the first turn or 2 of the game, but it can and will happen, so you can't be upset if you give away games keeping durdley hands.

I'm comfortable saying that MUD is just a bad matchup, as are many Legacy decks that don't play 1-drops, with the added sting of making cards like The Abyss laughable. Obviously there are cards that you can bring in if you have them in your board to make the matchup better - Desertion and Commandeer are the top of the laugh stack, Steel Sabotage and Phyrexian Revoker are more practical - but it's one of those decks where you have to weigh the value of the slots since the cards don't really have a lot of broad uses. Tezz wants to play 4 drops on T2, but MUD wants to play 6 drops at the same time, and they can reliably Jam 7's where you struggle sometimes to get your 6 into play. The only real consolation is that they are even more inconsistent than you, and hopefully Cruise going away means more Wastelands, and that deck REALLY does not like Wasteland...

For anyone who's curious, my current board is the following:


3 Lodestone Golem
2 Misdirection
2 Sun Droplet
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Notion Thief
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Null Brooch


I will be tweaking it in light of UR getting a LOT worse - the Sun Droplets are probably going away as they are only really good against Burn now, and Notion Thief will probably slunk away as well (for now!) I would like to get Thoughtseize back, and Night of Souls Betrayal is really, really good against DnT, and has the same versatility of EPlague against random Tribal Aggro.

[maCHOOga]

It's been a while since I toyed around with Tezz. I have a question though: With Treasure Cruise exiting the format, is the 4x leyline of the void + 1x helm (somewhere in the 75) no longer necessary/viable?

[nodahero]

I think the Leyline strategy still have merits however, it is not nearly as strong as it was.

Leyline still hits DRS, Past in Flames, Cabal Ritual, Cabal Therapy, Dredge, Reanimator and the list goes on. As with any niche angle card it really does depend on your meta. For my meta, it is still insane.

[Ellomdian]

With Treasure Cruise exiting the format, is the 4x leyline of the void + 1x helm (somewhere in the 75) no longer necessary/viable?

It is still a fine wincon, but it's not necessarily appreciably better than many other 2-card combos. Incidental GY hate is always going to be nice in Legacy, especially MD where most GY-oriented strategies likely won't be able to deal with it G1, but Leyline is still not terribly useful in multiples and costs a lot to cast.

It's strictly worse with TC leaving, but that doesn't immediately make it unplayable :P

[Crazy88]

Hello peeps!

Will try to keep this short, but sorry anyway about the incoming wall of text.

I've been exclusively playing Modern online (have no paper cards) for about 3 years now. The decks I played, in order, are: Goblins (30 tix deck just to learn MTGO), Burn, UR Tron, Storm, U Tron, UWR Control, 4c Gifts, Scapeshift and Pod. Before that I used to play competitive paper Magic from Kamigawa to Lorwyn (only Standard).

I built Pod 4 weeks ago, played and cashed a single DE and was hit by the ban hammer. Luckily, it's easy to sell cards online and, thanks to the booster packs I won with the deck, the financial loss was minimal (lost about 30 tix).

As you can see, I mostly play blue based decks. After the last ban I'm seriously considering just moving away from Modern and getting into Legacy.

I have some doubts and biases and came here hoping you guys could help me:

1. Is Legacy too "blue based"? I mean, I love Blue, but it appears that you must play FoW/Brainstorm in the format. There are other decks like Elves and Lands, but being realistic, exploring only top decks on sites like mtggoldfish and TCDecks, it's a blue world. Maybe it's the way it is and you just accept it, like Modern is dominated by GBx and URx shells. Checking the most played cards in the format, the top 10-12 (depending on the period of time you look at) are blue cards and blue lands, which is a bit intimidating. How do you feel about that?

2. Considering I'll only be playing on MTGO (or XMage for testing purposes before spending tix on decks), is it worth to play Legacy? I see the DEs are firing all all, but the community seems way smaller than Modern and Standard.

3. Learning curve. Here I'm expecting to be extremely frustrated for a while. I'm watching videos and reading primers but, for obvious and natural reasons, the format is way more complex than Modern, where I do have a good amount of knowledge about all the relevant decks.

4. Deck choice, of course! I have a budget. I can spend up to 700 tix on a Legacy deck assuming I'll play only one format (I have more than that, but need some cash for entry fees and speculating on cards). This leaves me with the follow options: UB Tezz, OmniTell, UR Delver, UWR Pyroblade, Grixis Control, Maverick, D&T and other stuff like Infect, Goblins, Affinity and Burn.

Of these options, a lot of them just lost Treasure Cruise, so I'm not sure I should go hear first into any. Considering my play style, Tezz seems awesome, hence this enormous post I'm forcing you guys/gals to read. :D

Searching for online result, I barely see any Tezz deck regularly cashing events. Is the deck too weak? Is it Cruise's fault? I mean, obviously everyone in the thread is biased towards it, but I expect honest assessments regardless as this forum is highly regarded. Should I build UB Tezz?

TL;DR: Exiled Modern Pod player. Such zero experience in Legacy. Many doubts. Wow. Is UB Tezz solid? #doge

Thanks a lot!

[Undomian]

1. Is Legacy too "blue based"? I mean, I love Blue, but it appears that you must play FoW/Brainstorm in the format. There are other decks like Elves and Lands, but being realistic, exploring only top decks on sites like mtggoldfish and TCDecks, it's a blue world. Maybe it's the way it is and you just accept it, like Modern is dominated by GBx and URx shells. Checking the most played cards in the format, the top 10-12 (depending on the period of time you look at) are blue cards and blue lands, which is a bit intimidating. How do you feel about that?

A lot of people will tell you that you need to play those cards. They're certainly powerful, and you'll experience that the first time you cast a Brainstorm and think "holy shit that was really good." Nonblue decks certainly have the capacity to be just as powerful as the blue decks, if not more so (see: the decks you mentioned), but they lack the incredible consistency that Brainstorm provides. The card essentially lets you "unmulligan" your hands, and allows you to find the cards you need at the right time. Do you need it? No. Does it help? Yeah.

There's plenty of Brainstorm circlejerking in the B&R thread, though, if you want to read through a few hundred pages of people bitching for and against it.

You don't need to play those cards to do well, but the people that tend to play well enough to place well in tournaments tend to be attracted to decks that are capable of playing the same game, every game, for every round of a tournament. Brainstorm allows you to do that. This deck plays a different game in that it gives up that consistency in exchange for raw power. You might not play the same game every time, but you'll be playing more powerful cards most of the time.


2. Considering I'll only be playing on MTGO (or XMage for testing purposes before spending tix on decks), is it worth to play Legacy? I see the DEs are firing all all, but the community seems way smaller than Modern and Standard.

That's entirely up to you, and this forum isn't necessarily the best place to get an unbiased answer to that question. I personally love the format and only play this and Vintage. It's fun, it's dynamic, and there exists a shell for basically every strategy you could think of (even if it's not necessarily tier 1). The community is smaller, yes, due to the cost of the cards. On MTGO at least, though, the average skill level of the players is reasonably high (there are a lot of "big name" players in the Legacy scene there), and it's not like there is a lack of deck variety. The metagame IS pretty different from the paper meta, though (once again, due to availability and the ability to change decks to the FotW with relative ease), so be prepared for that.


3. Learning curve. Here I'm expecting to be extremely frustrated for a while. I'm watching videos and reading primers but, for obvious and natural reasons, the format is way more complex than Modern, where I do have a good amount of knowledge about all the relevant decks.

You're going to be frustrated for a bit until you can learn the meta, just as you probably were when you first started playing Modern. Play a bunch, look at tournament results, and you'll learn what you need to know.


4. Deck choice, of course! I have a budget. I can spend up to 700 tix on a Legacy deck assuming I'll play only one format (I have more than that, but need some cash for entry fees and speculating on cards). This leaves me with the follow options: UB Tezz, OmniTell, UR Delver, UWR Pyroblade, Grixis Control, Maverick, D&T and other stuff like Infect, Goblins, Affinity and Burn.

This is where XMage and paper proxies are going to shine for you. Decks in this format cost a lot of money, so you should really find one that you love before deciding to buy into it.


Searching for online result, I barely see any Tezz deck regularly cashing events. Is the deck too weak? Is it Cruise's fault? I mean, obviously everyone in the thread is biased towards it, but I expect honest assessments regardless as this forum is highly regarded. Should I build UB Tezz?

You don't see a lot of this deck because it's a fringe deck. Not very many people play it, period. To the best of my knowledge, the only people playing it on MTGO were myself before I cashed out a month ago and Mullibok. Combine that with the fact that only one daily every day is posted, and you're not going to find many results. This deck also probably only represents well less than 1% of the paper metagame as well (mostly because it costs a bunch), so you don't see many results in those events either.

I personally love this deck. I've been playing some variant of this basically since I started playing Legacy, and it has yet to get stale. It's high variance, sure, but it's also a high reward deck. My favorite way to describe this deck's play style to people is to tell them that sometimes, it feels like you're playing standard, and sometimes, it feels like you're playing vintage. There will be games when you open on a 7 card hand that doesn't do anything meaningful until turn 3, but there are also games when you'll play a Chalice on turn 1 followed by a Tezzeret on turn 2 - all with Force backup.

As with any Legacy deck, though, you really need to jam some games with it to get the feel of the deck. Whether it's Tezzeret or something else entirely, you'll find 'the one' eventually.

[Crazy88]

Thanks a lot for the detailed and thoughtful response.

Is there any real chance Brainstorm gets banned because it's "oppressive"? I mean, Pod was banned and it was not nearly as prevalent as Brainstorm in Legacy (Bolt is). Of course, Pod is the engine of a very good deck, while Brainstorm is a very powerful spell of many decks, so it's not a direct comparison.

Also, what's the currently accepted "optimal" list for Tezz?

[Undomian]

Thanks a lot for the detailed and thoughtful response.

Is there any real chance Brainstorm gets banned because it's "oppressive"? I mean, Pod was banned and it was not nearly as prevalent as Brainstorm in Legacy (Bolt is). Of course, Pod is the engine of a very good deck, while Brainstorm is a very powerful spell of many decks, so it's not a direct comparison.

Also, what's the currently accepted "optimal" list for Tezz?

I think not, but as I mentioned, there is plenty of arguing over that topic to be found here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?14662-All-B-R-update-speculation).

Ellomdian is pretty good about keeping the primer up to date, so that's a good starting point. There isn't really a concrete best list for this deck yet, though, I think. There is certainly a best shell, but there are enough flex slots in this archetype that everyone's deck looks and plays fairly differently.

[Crazy88]

Is this list still viable? http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=11068&iddeck=80864

Played 5 matches already and having severe mana screw problems. I remember drawing more than 2 lands just once. Is it ok to play more artifact lands? I don't think the manabase beats Wasteland anyway.

[Undomian]

Is this list still viable? http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=11068&iddeck=80864

Played 5 matches already and having severe mana screw problems. I remember drawing more than 2 lands just once. Is it ok to play more artifact lands? I don't think the manabase beats Wasteland anyway.

That list is a little outdated from my perspective. 4 Jace is entirely too many in this metagame, and I think a few of us have shaved some copies of him along with some copies of TfK for more Thopter/Sword pieces. Have you looked at the past few pages of the thread to see what recent lists look like?

[Crazy88]

Will do that. I'm kinda lost as to what is optimal or just people experimenting stuff, but I guess I have to try a couple lists and see what sticks.

[Bobmans]

Will do that. I'm kinda lost as to what is optimal or just people experimenting stuff, but I guess I have to try a couple lists and see what sticks.

I think this is pretty much streamlined for a Tezz list:

4 Baleful Strix
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2 Tezzeret the Seeker
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Transmute Artifact
4 Force of Will
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Dimir Signet
2 Talisman of Dominance
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 The Abyss (could also be a Crucible of Worlds if Wasteland)
3 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
2/3 flex (3th Jace, tms/Dig Through Time/3th Transmute/Thirst for Knowledge or w/e)

3 Underground Sea
3 Darkslick Shore
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Academy Ruins
4 Polluted Delta
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors

If Crucible+Wasteland is your thing then -1 Ancient Tomb and -1 Seat/Darkslick and +2/3 Wasteland.

Going from 60 to 61 cards MD is no problem for this deck.

Side:
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
2 Lodestone Golem
1 Trinisphere
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm

Last 4 are flex as well. Those can be swapped with Toxic Deluge, Engineered Plague and/or Damnation. Also Misdirection or Thoughtseize/Duress is seen in those slots.

Last note, with a meta full of graveyard based strategies you can choose to add Leyline+Helm maindeck. Cutting the 3 flex slots plus a Sword and a Thopter Foundry. Going to 61 cards and NOT going for Crucible + Wasteland. Starting G1 with a Leyline is ussualy game against a lot of those decks. Also starting with a Leyline in play requires you to only find 1 part of a combo. With a bit of luck you can win with it as soon as T2. But i did find playing with that build kinda stuck in between Thopter+Sword based aggro and trying to combo with Leyline+Helm making both kinda clunky. Thopter+Sword compliments the rest of the deck more in my oppinion.

[Serj]

So I finished getting this deck finished during GP Denver a couple of weeks ago and was able to play in the Legacy side events on Friday and Sunday (Saturday was dedicated to grinding EDH for tickets with the infinite constructed bracelet which was ridiculous value when your edh deck wins turn 1-4 every game). and I went 3-2 on the Friday event and 4-0-1 on the Sunday event.

Friday I played against:
Death and Taxes 1-2
Battle of Wits Cascade 2-1
UR Delver 1-2
Miracles 2-0 (I comboed Turn 3 and then Turn 4 with Helmline against him and he was super salty about it)
Opponent no showed but played against storm player whose opponent no showed as well 2-0

I didn't have deluges and e.plagues for my board on Friday but I picked them up at some point Saturday and Sunday (I got a Ravages of War, Underground Sea, and some other stuff from my tickets on Sunday that minus the underground sea turned into 200 cash and to flesh out the rest of my board).

Sunday was much better
Infect 2-0 Chalice on 1 did work.
Dredge 2-0 Mainboard Leyline did work, chalice on 1 to stop cabal therapy in game 2 did work, followed by turn 3 hard cast Leyline.
Shardless Bug 2-1 Chalice on 1, Chalice on 0, plus thopter/swords with academy ruins won game 1, Game 3 was won by helmline combo. Game 2 I just misplayed terribly around abrupt decay.
Storm 2-0 Turn 0 Leyline, Turn 1 Chalice for 1 game 1 and he scooped after seeing a Jace. Game 2 was Chalice for 0 then Chalice for 1 turn 2.
Tin-Fins Sideboard into DDFT (.dk) Split but played it out 2-1. Turn 0 Leyline against tinfins, he hard casts griselbrand, I hard cast force of will, he scoops. Game 2 He doomsday shelldock isle emrakuls me after bouncing my bridge. Game 3 lock him out and win.

My 75 Sunday:
Mainboard 60 (22 lands)

4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Baleful Strix

4 Force of Will
2 Transmute Artifact

4 Leyline of the Void

4 Chalice of the Void
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Trinisphere

2 Talisman of Dominance
4 Dimir Signet

1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Seat of the Synod
4 Underground Sea
1 Darkslick Shores
4 Polluted Delta
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Academy Ruins
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Sunken Ruins

SB: 1 Damnation
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Lodestone Golem
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Transmute Artifact
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Notion Thief
SB: 1 Grafdiggers Cages


So far maindeck helmline has been awesome simply because I've been running into GY decks and just the fact that if I get turn 0 Leyline I have 5 instawin topdecks in Helm, Transmute, and Papa Tezz. I like running the 1 Jace, he did some work, Brainstorming, Fatesealing, and Bouncing things until I did something more relevant, also being able to Brainstorm into a Tezz +1 to reset the top of my deck and try and draw into more gas has done well. Until I play more tournaments I think the maindeck Helmline combo is fine, though as others have said it has been awkward when you have like Leyline, Thopter Foundry in hand and don't see a tutor effect or other part of the combo to get it, but the random turn 2-3 wins that helmline can do is great.

[Ellomdian]

1. Is Legacy too "blue based"?

You could read the BnR speculation thread, but you should get a Soul Condom first - it's pretty nasty in there. Short answer, yes, longer complex answer, your experience with a deck will almost always be more relevant that the colors you are playing. When the Euro guys came over for Jersey, they DECIMATED the SCG afterwards with DnT.



2. Considering I'll only be playing on MTGO (or XMage for testing purposes before spending tix on decks), is it worth to play Legacy?

Legacy is fun, and even moreso when you get to play it. The online environment is stable enough to get games in, but the cost is pretty high just to have fun. Remember there is no online Reserved List. And be careful - if you have fun online, you're a lot more likely to buy some expensive cardboard.



Searching for online result, I barely see any Tezz deck regularly cashing events. Is the deck too weak? Is it Cruise's fault? I mean, obviously everyone in the thread is biased towards it, but I expect honest assessments regardless as this forum is highly regarded. Should I build UB Tezz?


CotV is even better online than it is on paper. The biggest reason you don't see Tezz online is the same reason you don't see it in paper - People Enjoy Casting Brainstorm. If you enjoy depriving people of that satisfaction, and you like clicking walkers to do DUMB things, Tezz is the deck for you.


Is there any real chance Brainstorm gets banned because it's "oppressive"?

Again, BnR thread, Soul Condom. Realistically? No. Legacy is healthier (in terms of playerbase) in the last 6 months than it has been since it's inception and split from Type 1. And FWIW, a Brainstorm ban would be disruptive enough that legacy would be a brewer's paradise for months. So you win either way! :)


Ellomdian is pretty good about keeping the primer up to date, so that's a good starting point. There isn't really a concrete best list for this deck yet, though, I think. There is certainly a best shell, but there are enough flex slots in this archetype that everyone's deck looks and plays fairly differently.

Even as much as I give him crap for playing Red in his list (and those Mox Diamonds, jeeze) Undomain still compliments me. The best part of Tezz is that the deck is (at it's core) an engine (much like Pod!) and you have a lot of open slots to play with. I prefer Thirsts, people play other Tezz's, and you can even incorporate MD bullets.


So I finished getting this deck finished during GP Denver a couple of weeks ago and was able to play in the Legacy side events on Friday and Sunday (Saturday was dedicated to grinding EDH for tickets with the infinite constructed bracelet which was ridiculous value when your edh deck wins turn 1-4 every game). and I went 3-2 on the Friday event and 4-0-1 on the Sunday event.

Woo hoo to more people playing Tezz (and the EDH grinding was crazy busy, but I promise the TO took it all the way to the bank! :cool:) I am fine with MD Helm/Line as a WinCon option, and my thoughts are well documented already. As long as you are tapping Tombs and Rocks (Legacy Rampant growths!) to cast stuff, I can respect the plan.

[Giggioz]

Played this deck for a long time.

I followed its mutations until the last one with the double combo main deck (which i don't like, it seems too clunky to me).

With the last expansion i started to try Monastery Siege and i'm having a positive feeling about it: we can play it on turn 2 and getting huge advantage from it, sometimes it is good even with its second ability (vs decay, tourach, burn) and in multiples it's always good. Draw/discard in this deck is super, we can get rid of sword or manastones or exceding chalices...

I also think that this card gives a huge boost against miracle, a popular deck here in europe.

My recent list is

4 Baleful Strix
4 Tezzeret, agente di bolas
3 monastery siege
2 toxic deluge
1 tezzeret the seeker
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Force of Will
4 Talisman of Dominance
2 Dimir Signet
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 nihil spellbomb
2 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
3 Transmute Artifact

4 Undergorund Sea
3 Polluted Delta
3 Darkslick Shores
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yagwmoth
1 Academy Ruins
1 Seat of the Synod
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors

Sb

4 leyline of the void
1 helm of obedience

2 misdirection

1 the abyss/toxic deluge
1 batterskull

2 echoing truth

1 trinisphere
3 lodestone golem


This list packs the usual stuff plus 3 monastery siege and 1 nihil spellbomb which is a metacall (it can be needle or ratchet bomb or whatever).
The side has the other combo when you need it, 2 misdirections that are good both in counterwars and against decay/tourach and other cards dedicated for aggro or combo.
Echoing Truths are there because sometimes our opponents put lock pieces on the ground (gaddock, needle, rest in peace, counterbalance or even a planeswalker) and we have no options to remove them, sometimes they can save our permanents from a decay or buy time vs ur tokens.

I don't miss jace or other planeswalkers btw tezzeret the seeker does not impress me too much and it could be something else (its +1 ability is never relevant and it usually only tutors an artifact for 5 mana).

Thanks for reading and keep this thread up to date!

[Ellomdian]

With the last expansion i started to try Monastery Siege and i'm having a positive feeling about it: we can play it on turn 2 and getting huge advantage from it, sometimes it is good even with its second ability (vs decay, tourach, burn) and in multiples it's always good.

But I am genuinely curious - what does Siege offer you that JTMS does not? Sure, you can cast it T2 without a signet, but it really doesn't have an impact on the board in either mode in that case. It dies to Decay if you use mode 1, and it literally does nothing to the board if you use mode 2. It doesn't stop creatures from attacking you, it doesn't stop combo from killing you, it doesn't represent card advantage (just selection.) Most fair games I lose with the deck come from keeping an opening hand that has a poor gameplan, as drawing a good card T4/5 requires you to actually get there, and I don't feel like siege helps. But, as I have said, one of the biggest strengths of this deck is the ability to have filler slots. Every time I cast Staff of Nin my opponents giggle a little, and I am still trying to figure out how to work Spine of Ish Sah in here...

Also, I feel like your matchup against Miracles should be pretty strong overall - if they are not actively floating a 4CMC card (typically only JTMS) you can just Jam your walkers until they run out of permission. Most people seem to analyze this matchup incorrectly (IMO) - you are the aggro deck. The longer the game goes, the more likely they are to win. Make 5/5s out of signets and just kill them.

[Giggioz]

But I am genuinely curious - what does Siege offer you that JTMS does not? Sure, you can cast it T2 without a signet, but it really doesn't have an impact on the board in either mode in that case. It dies to Decay if you use mode 1, and it literally does nothing to the board if you use mode 2. It doesn't stop creatures from attacking you, it doesn't stop combo from killing you, it doesn't represent card advantage (just selection.) Most fair games I lose with the deck come from keeping an opening hand that has a poor gameplan, as drawing a good card T4/5 requires you to actually get there, and I don't feel like siege helps. But, as I have said, one of the biggest strengths of this deck is the ability to have filler slots. Every time I cast Staff of Nin my opponents giggle a little, and I am still trying to figure out how to work Spine of Ish Sah in here...

Also, I feel like your matchup against Miracles should be pretty strong overall - if they are not actively floating a 4CMC card (typically only JTMS) you can just Jam your walkers until they run out of permission. Most people seem to analyze this matchup incorrectly (IMO) - you are the aggro deck. The longer the game goes, the more likely they are to win. Make 5/5s out of signets and just kill them.

I've just finished a 26 players tournament right now ending in top8 with the previous configuration and i can answer you more wisely :)

Siege fills the curve so nicely in comparison to jace, as you mentioned we can cast it on turn 2 with 3 mana instead doing nothing or make a cc2 play.
It does not stop creatures from attacking me, true, but it helps me finding a toxic deluge or a bridge or a combo piece.
It does not stop combo from killing me, true, but it digs for fows, misdirections, calices, sphere e golem.
This deck does not need card advantage instead it needs card selection and this card gets the job done, no more clunky draws (mana stones in mid game, mutiple chalices, sword of the meek, extra lands...) we have very few shuffle effects and jace is not so efficient in filtering cards for us.

One of the most relevant things in which siege is worse than jace is that decays can target it...but it means that our other permanents are still there (and it can be casted versus gaddock as happened to me today...).

Today it won me g2 against maverik (and in g3 my oppo greensunzenithed for a qsali into siege instead of destroying my foundry!), 2 games vs miracle and it would have won a game against burn if i had thr opportunity to cast it out of ancient tomb :(

Against miracle i strongly agree with you, we are the aggro deck and we have to play bomb after bomb until our oppo goes out of gas...but i can assure you that with a siege we can cast a bomb almost every turn and this usually means victory.

Regarding the tournament in general:

- Today i never casted Tezzeret the seeker and a bounch of times i sided it out... this confirms i want something else inside the deck

- Misdirections made my day against a storm player : he decays my chalice i misdirect it to his led!!!

- Nihil spell bomb was changed for a needle but i never used it or tutored it...this is a silver bullet that changes a lot of times

- I've lost in top8 vs canadian, in g1 i had the chance to transmute for bridge instead i chose foundry, then i played sword but he dazed it and i didn't draw an artifact for two turns... in g2 i mull to 6 and got 3 leyline + 2 fow + land, then i mulled to 5, keeping city of traitos, chalice, transmute, strix, foundry... suicidal hand but i had to keep : i play chalice he has force, he plays delver, i draw an holy signet but he plays wasteland and i'm on Mars :/

- This deck is so sweet: today i won in all the different possibile ways, beating with 5/5s, helming my opponent, ultimating him with tezzeret or killing him with a sworm of 1/1s...

[TheShepherd]

Thanks for the tournament report! Sorry about the mulligan troubles in t8.

I may try this list out, with -1 siege -1 sword of the meek, +2 jace.

[Sisyphos]

It does not stop combo from killing me, true, but it digs for fows, misdirections, calices, sphere e golem.


About Siege not stopping combo from killing you. It's only marginal, but Siege (Dragons) means that Tendrils is now a six mana spell. If opponent does not realize this and does the usual combo math, it might net you a win. Most Storm decks rely on bounce (Chain of Vapor) or Decay to get rid of Chalice/Trini. Adding +2 to the casting cost of either card should at least buy you some more time to completely lock up the board, same against BUG Delver with their decays. Not sure if it is better than looting each turn, but something to maybe consider.

[Ellomdian]

This deck does not need card advantage instead it needs card selection and this card gets the job done, no more clunky draws (mana stones in mid game, mutiple chalices, sword of the meek, extra lands...) we have very few shuffle effects and jace is not so efficient in filtering cards for us.


Again, I'm certainly not going to say you shouldn't play pet cards.

Having said that, I've never really had a problem finding cards with this deck, given enough time. Between Fetches, Transmutes, and Tezz, you are pretty consistently resetting your JTMS looks, and outside of Midrange and Control matches, I am rarely activating JTMS more than 2-3 times a game. Of course, I still have Thirsts in my list, so YMMV.

Much of the 'development' around this deck seems to have fallen Prey to the Danger of Cool things, and I have to wonder if I wouldn't see more success if I streamlined things. I feel like Goal #1 should be disrupt what your opponent wants to do (Chalice, FoW, Lodestone), Goal #2 should be to develop an Engine (Tezz, JTMS, Bridge) and Goal #3 should be Kill your Opponent. We seem to be spending a lot of time in Goal #2, and we should really be honing #3.

[TMPWDobs]

I tried this list at a 40duals event


Creatures (4)

4 Baleful Strix

Planeswalkers (7)

3 Dack Fayden
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

Lands (24)

2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins

Spells (25)

4 Chalice of the Void
1 Crucible Of Worlds
2 Dimir Signet
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Mox Diamond
2 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Dig Through Time
4 Force of Will
2 Transmute Artifact

Sideboard
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Trinisphere
2 Lodestone Golem
2 Blood Moon
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Misdirection
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Whipflare

Will post more or thoughts on cards and this archetype in general when have more time later this week. List I played was mostly to experiment with a variety of cards I went 3-4 losing to elves twice UWR tokens and 12 post

[Undomian]

Please do let me know what you thought about the deck. It's always interesting to hear what people think about my list, especially since you've seen some success with a more traditional variant.

Also, after testing with Monastery Siege, it is probably just bad. The Chill mode is nice, but the looting mode not kicking in until your next turn makes the card pretty miserable. It was Forced every time I tried to cast it, but I think it's probably better off as something else. What that something else is, I'm not entirely sure, but I'm learning toward The Abyss again since various flavors of BUG/Jund are making a resurgence.

[maCHOOga]

I tried this list at a 40duals event

Will post more or thoughts on cards and this archetype in general when have more time later this week. List I played was mostly to experiment with a variety of cards I went 3-4 losing to elves twice UWR tokens and 12 post

Emrakul, Wurmcoil, Wurmcoil pass. It was a pleasure! :-D

Your list was within 2 cards of the Tezzerator version I've been toying with. My only difference is I was running 2x Jace TMS over a 3rd Dack & Thopter Foundary. I also think It would be sweet to squeeze in a notion thief somewhere.

[Undomian]

I played my Grixis list again at our local monthly event to a loss in the quarterfinals to Lands. That loss came on the back of some bad hands combined with a good draw from my opponent, and there's not much I could have done about it I think. That flex slot in my sideboard ended up becoming a 3rd Blood Moon, which I think is probably better than The Abyss right now given the other decks in the metagame. As usual, the updated UBr list can be found in the Google Doc linked in my signature.

Chalice is not at it's strongest right now, but I think the other angles that this deck provides are still very strong. Early planeswalkers are really only poor in a metagame infested with Show and Tell, and that deck has been on the decline for awhile. On top of that, the metagame at this tournament was overwhelmingly fair, and Thopter/Sword is still backbreaking for those decks.

[maCHOOga]

I played my Grixis list again at our local monthly event to a loss in the quarterfinals to Lands. That loss came on the back of some bad hands combined with a good draw from my opponent, and there's not much I could have done about it I think. That flex slot in my sideboard ended up becoming a 3rd Blood Moon, which I think is probably better than The Abyss right now given the other decks in the metagame. As usual, the updated UBr list can be found in the Google Doc linked in my signature.

Between Undomian's list and loosing to Tezz in round 9 of 9 at the SCG premier IQ on Sunday, I decided to sleeve it up. This deck is awesome! :cool: I went with +2 Jace, TMS over 2 Dacks. Every game that Dack was in play, I won, whereas Jace just seemed to die a lot! Went 2-1 loosing to what I thought was death and taxes, only to find it was Maverick. Regardless, 2x revokers + gaddock teeg locked me out of a game.

Obviously Show & Tell its a rough matchup. How is the Death and Taxes matchup in general? What about lands/turbo depths?

@Undomain I've seen you list before. Have you run 61 cards at times, with the 61st card being the Abyss?

[Undomian]

Between Undomian's list and loosing to Tezz in round 9 of 9 at the SCG premier IQ on Sunday, I decided to sleeve it up. This deck is awesome! :cool: I went with +2 Jace, TMS over 2 Dacks. Every game that Dack was in play, I won, whereas Jace just seemed to die a lot! Went 2-1 loosing to what I thought was death and taxes, only to find it was Maverick. Regardless, 2x revokers + gaddock teeg locked me out of a game.

Obviously Show & Tell its a rough matchup. How is the Death and Taxes matchup in general? What about lands/turbo depths?

@Undomain I've seen you list before. Have you run 61 cards at times, with the 61st card being the Abyss?

Teeg is a brutal card that we don't really have a good way to deal with preboard, unfortunately. That card alongside a few Revokers can completely shut our deck down, so your best bet there before you get access to your sideboard is to have a timely Force or two to back up a quick Thopter/Sword. As for those other matchups:

Show & Tell: This matchup is pretty awful. Chalice isn't at its best here, and they tend to not care very much about early planeswalkers. We don't have any meaningful interaction outside of Bridge & Force preboard, and postboard they have ways to deal with our hate cards.

Death & Taxes: I have found this to be a positive matchup with my list, though I can see the more traditional variants having issues with it. Thalia and Revoker suck, and Flickerwisp generally invalidates Bridge after a certain point. Mother of Runes is also (surprisingly) effective here, allowing them to swing through our creatures at our planeswalkers with ease since all of our guys are blue. The upside? They generally can't beat Thopter/Sword, and if you're playing Dack, he's a beating.

Lands: This is an easy matchup in my experience. They sometimes have the nut draw and you die on turn 2 without being able to interact, but most of the other games we have infinite blockers for their token. A single resolved Bridge or Thopter Foundry can spell game over for them, even without a Sword in play.

And yeah, I did play with The Abyss when Shardless BUG and Jund were popular decks a few months ago, so that was almost certainly my list. That's where the quote in my signature comes from. :wink:

[TMPWDobs]

Between Undomian's list and loosing to Tezz in round 9 of 9 at the SCG premier IQ on Sunday, I decided to sleeve it up. This deck is awesome! :cool: I went with +2 Jace, TMS over 2 Dacks. Every game that Dack was in play, I won, whereas Jace just seemed to die a lot! Went 2-1 loosing to what I thought was death and taxes, only to find it was Maverick. Regardless, 2x revokers + gaddock teeg locked me out of a game.

Obviously Show & Tell its a rough matchup. How is the Death and Taxes matchup in general? What about lands/turbo depths?

@Undomain I've seen you list before. Have you run 61 cards at times, with the 61st card being the Abyss?

Ahh my friend finally decided to give it a go ;) Will you be at EE2?

Show & Tell is a toss up obviously having bridge is usually deciding factor

Deathand Taxes for me has been slightly in our favor it really comes down to revoker and if they name correct card...

[maCHOOga]

:wink:

Thanks for the feedback! I played it at one local month event and lost my win and in to top 8 to elves. Dack Fayden was bananas all day, swipping a Jitte, Arcbound Ravager (it was sac'ed), aether vial, sword of fire and ice, baleful strix and a batterskull.

Round 1: Grixis Painter. A Dack Fayden mirror match, who would have thought? 0-1
Round 2: Death and Taxes. 1-1
Round 3: Death and Taxes. 2-1
Round 4: Affinity. 3-1
Round 5 Win & In: Elves. 3-2
Round 6: Shardless BUG: 3-3

Game 1 against Elves involved a turn 1 chalice which made the match seem easy. The next two games involved abrupt decays and reclamation sages, which made it incredibly difficult for me to win. In hindsight, I feel like its a "mulligan until you hit a mass removal spell" sort of match.

I started at 61 cards, which I whittled down to 60 cards. I ended up cutting a land, since there was 4 mox diamonds and 2 dimir signets. Unfortunately, I think it should have been a ancient tomb instead of a fetch land. I also opted to include 1x liquidmetal coating as a fun-of. As expected, it didn't do anything all day.

I also noticed that this deck seems to run into issues against a resolved Jace TMS. Going forward, I may try to squeeze some REB's in the SB.

[Undomian]

Played my usual list (with some changes to the sideboard) in EE2 yesterday and had a pretty good run. Went 7-0-2 in the swiss to end as second seed going into the top 16, and eventually took my first and final match loss to Death and Taxes in the top 4. This event was a blast and the deck was insane all day. I'll be writing up something a bit more detailed tonight when I have some spare time!

[Sisyphos]

Gratz, nice result. Looking forward to reading the more detailed report. I'm also brewing up a new list. Been experimenting with your baseline using Mox Diamond in a three color shell, but the list is heavily skewed towards a very strange local metagame. Hopefully I will get the chance to try it out next weekend.

[Undomian]

I got around to writing it up, you can find it here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29289-3rd-at-Eternal-Extravaganza-2-with-UBr-Tezzeret!).

[TMPWDobs]

Played my usual list (with some changes to the sideboard) in EE2 yesterday and had a pretty good run. Went 7-0-2 in the swiss to end as second seed going into the top 16, and eventually took my first and final match loss to Death and Taxes in the top 4. This event was a blast and the deck was insane all day. I'll be writing up something a bit more detailed tonight when I have some spare time!

Congrats on your run you beat my friend in the top 8. I turned my back on the lil homie Tezz and he punished me with a poor result at the event... I tried my hand with Mud went 2-7 Lol

[maCHOOga]

I got around to writing it up, you can find it here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29289-3rd-at-Eternal-Extravaganza-2-with-UBr-Tezzeret!).

Congrats! I wish I would have known you played my friend on Lands, I would have loved to meet you. Since I've been playing your deck and all.

How good was chains? Is it necessary? I would like to avoid spending $300? $500? if possible. :-)
Abyss, y u so good!


Congrats on your run you beat my friend in the top 8. I turned my back on the lil homie Tezz and he punished me with a poor result at the event... I tried my hand with Mud went 2-7 Lol

Don't worry, Karn punished me in a similar fashion on Sunday. I feel your pain. That's MUD though, it can either go 7-2 or 2-7 with the exact same 75. It's a vintage deck, hold the moxen lol.

[Undomian]

Thanks everyone.


Congrats! I wish I would have known you played my friend on Lands, I would have loved to meet you. Since I've been playing your deck and all.

How good was chains? Is it necessary? I would like to avoid spending $300? $500? if possible. :-)
Abyss, y u so good!

Chains was really, really cool, but probably unnecessary. I assembled Dack/Chains twice on the day (and it was sweet as hell), but those games were probably already over by the time it mattered.

[l33twash0r]

Thanks everyone.



Chains was really, really cool, but probably unnecessary. I assembled Dack/Chains twice on the day (and it was sweet as hell), but those games were probably already over by the time it mattered.

What about the Abysses? How good they were?

[TMPWDobs]

Congrats! I wish I would have known you played my friend on Lands, I would have loved to meet you. Since I've been playing your deck and all.

How good was chains? Is it necessary? I would like to avoid spending $300? $500? if possible. :-)
Abyss, y u so good!



Don't worry, Karn punished me in a similar fashion on Sunday. I feel your pain. That's MUD though, it can either go 7-2 or 2-7 with the exact same 75. It's a vintage deck, hold the moxen lol.

Haha ya that is mainly why I played it cause I play shops in vintage which I did on Sunday lost my win and in went 5-2 in vintage event

Also you wrote about having things to target so get value out of Dacks ult I tested a list came in 2nd at a local 5 round event with grixis tezz punishing fire dack... also had pyroblast in board...

[Undomian]

What about the Abysses? How good they were?

The Abyss is insane in some matchups. It's obviously meta-dependent against them, but if you have a lot of BUG in your meta they can't ever beat that card.


Haha ya that is mainly why I played it cause I play shops in vintage which I did on Sunday lost my win and in went 5-2 in vintage event

Also you wrote about having things to target so get value out of Dacks ult I tested a list came in 2nd at a local 5 round event with grixis tezz punishing fire dack... also had pyroblast in board...

I can't even imagine what the mana base for that one must have looked like haha. Punishing Tezz is an interesting idea, but I think it might be trying to cram too much into one deck. You obviously had success with it though, so I'll have to give that a shot sometime.

[TMPWDobs]

The Abyss is insane in some matchups. It's obviously meta-dependent against them, but if you have a lot of BUG in your meta they can't ever beat that card.



I can't even imagine what the mana base for that one must have looked like haha. Punishing Tezz is an interesting idea, but I think it might be trying to cram too much into one deck. You obviously had success with it though, so I'll have to give that a shot sometime.

This is roughly what list looked like

4 Baleful Strix
3 Dack Fayden
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Academy Ruins
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Dimir Signet
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Mox Diamond
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry
3 Force of Will
3 Punishing Fire
2 Transmute Artifact
4 Polluted Delta
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Trinisphere
SB: 2 Lodestone Golem
SB: 1 Wurmcoil Engine
SB: 2 Goblin Welder
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge

I have played it with Pyroblast in sideboard so can steal more things such as planeswalkers if you make a Dack Emblem. I need to pick up some copies of Abyss sometimes as I fell that card is very strong it just cost more then I wanna spend right now :/

Also I think your list is where the deck wants to be right now It is a combination of what original list was trying to do combined with what I did at eternal weekend as a sideboard option...

[TMPWDobs]

Thanks for the feedback! I played it at one local month event and lost my win and in to top 8 to elves. Dack Fayden was bananas all day, swipping a Jitte, Arcbound Ravager (it was sac'ed), aether vial, sword of fire and ice, baleful strix and a batterskull.

Round 1: Grixis Painter. A Dack Fayden mirror match, who would have thought? 0-1
Round 2: Death and Taxes. 1-1
Round 3: Death and Taxes. 2-1
Round 4: Affinity. 3-1
Round 5 Win & In: Elves. 3-2
Round 6: Shardless BUG: 3-3

Game 1 against Elves involved a turn 1 chalice which made the match seem easy. The next two games involved abrupt decays and reclamation sages, which made it incredibly difficult for me to win. In hindsight, I feel like its a "mulligan until you hit a mass removal spell" sort of match.

I started at 61 cards, which I whittled down to 60 cards. I ended up cutting a land, since there was 4 mox diamonds and 2 dimir signets. Unfortunately, I think it should have been a ancient tomb instead of a fetch land. I also opted to include 1x liquidmetal coating as a fun-of. As expected, it didn't do anything all day.

I also noticed that this deck seems to run into issues against a resolved Jace TMS. Going forward, I may try to squeeze some REB's in the SB.

Against Reid Duke's Resolved Jace I played Tezz made Chalice a 5/5 and killed Jace :)

[Sisyphos]

I got around to writing it up, you can find it here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29289-3rd-at-Eternal-Extravaganza-2-with-UBr-Tezzeret!).

Thanks for the detailed report.

I have a question on your boarding against Miracles specifically. In R4, G3, you write that you play out some Baleful Strixes early. Strix is usually one of the cards I cut against Miracles. Granted, you do not have that many cards in your board that I would board in, but based on the list, I'd most likely want the 2 Lodestone Golems and the Chains of Mephistopheles. Possibly the Helm of Obedience if I suspect/see Rest in Peace. I'd probably cut the Ensnaring Bridge first (can be good against Entreat, but you also have EE for that, not much use against anything else, can prevent attacking with Lodestone/Tezzeret-animated-artifacts) but after that I'd most likely start cutting Strixes. Have you found Strixes to be needed against Miracles to pressure Jace as you do not have Cliques of your own in the board? If so, what else did you board out?

Another thing I wondered was whether you ever considered a 2/1 split between Dack and Daretti? The +2 is slightely weaker admittedly, but the -2 ability to recur artifacts seems like a natural fit to the deck.

The other card I was starting to consider testing in the deck (not only your 3-color-version, but also the "traditional" 2-color one), is Tasigur, the Golden Fang. Anybody ever tried him? The deck is not set up to abuse Delve, but the deck is more than capable of paying 3-4 mana in addition to delving some cards in the first 2-3 turns. It can offer a considerable early blocker or a threat similar to a Tezzeret animated artifact, depending on what you need and the mana base allows repeated uses of his ability to provide recursion and pseudo-card-draw at a fairly early stage of the game.

[Undomian]

Thanks for the detailed report.

I have a question on your boarding against Miracles specifically. In R4, G3, you write that you play out some Baleful Strixes early. Strix is usually one of the cards I cut against Miracles. Granted, you do not have that many cards in your board that I would board in, but based on the list, I'd most likely want the 2 Lodestone Golems and the Chains of Mephistopheles. Possibly the Helm of Obedience if I suspect/see Rest in Peace. I'd probably cut the Ensnaring Bridge first (can be good against Entreat, but you also have EE for that, not much use against anything else, can prevent attacking with Lodestone/Tezzeret-animated-artifacts) but after that I'd most likely start cutting Strixes. Have you found Strixes to be needed against Miracles to pressure Jace as you do not have Cliques of your own in the board? If so, what else did you board out?

Another thing I wondered was whether you ever considered a 2/1 split between Dack and Daretti? The +2 is slightely weaker admittedly, but the -2 ability to recur artifacts seems like a natural fit to the deck.

The other card I was starting to consider testing in the deck (not only your 3-color-version, but also the "traditional" 2-color one), is Tasigur, the Golden Fang. Anybody ever tried him? The deck is not set up to abuse Delve, but the deck is more than capable of paying 3-4 mana in addition to delving some cards in the first 2-3 turns. It can offer a considerable early blocker or a threat similar to a Tezzeret animated artifact, depending on what you need and the mana base allows repeated uses of his ability to provide recursion and pseudo-card-draw at a fairly early stage of the game.

For the Miracles matchup, I boarded out Bridge, Crucible, and some number of Force of Will for Chains, Misdirection, and some number of Lodestone Golem. I use "some number of" because if my opponent is the type of person to leave Swords to Plowshares in their deck in game 2 out of fear of 5/5s, I tend to board one of them back out in game 3 to try to blank another card in their deck. Thanks to Joe a lot of people are aware that this deck is packing Helm postboard, so I tend not to bring that in by itself unless I know for a fact that my opponent has boarded it in against me. Since the printing of Containment Priest, that's happened a lot less, so your results may vary depending on the builds of the people you play with.

I have actually not played with Daretti, so there is a chance that he might be doing something that we want to be doing. In a vacuum, though, I don't like the way that the +2 functions due to how often this deck finds itself hellbent or sandbagging a single card. That ability would probably end up discarding only a single card more times than not. The card also costs 4 mana, and one of the reasons that I like Dack so much is that he's in that sweet spot where we can cast it on turn 2 in hands with a Diamond but without a sol land. Recovering from an Abrupt Decay is really good, no doubt, but I'm not sure the power level of the plus ability is there.

Tasigur I have not played with yet, but considering how difficult it is to delve in this deck unless Dack Fayden is online(I cut the second Dig Through Time for this reason), I think we'd be paying the full cost or close to it. Along those same lines though, if we could find more ways to put cards into the graveyard, the inclusion of additional delve cards would allow us to delve away the chaff (see: mana rocks and Force of Wills) to get back our game-ending bombs with his ability.

[Sisyphos]

Yeah, the usefullness of boarding in Helm against Miracles has sadly declined in my experience too. Not only Joe has led to this, but also Dig through Time. Most Miracles around here play 2-3 of that card, which in turn has led to a decline of Rest in Peace as their graveyard hate of choice.

Boarding out Force of Wills for Misdirection in the matchup seems kind of odd at first glance, as it will probably be just used as a counter anyways. Guess it depends on how many Disenchant-type cards you suspect after boarding and if the blowout of misdirecting a Blast onto their Jace or Counterbalance is worth not being able to Force those cards when they are played.

I have neither tried Daretti or Tasigur in this deck yet, just have some experience with Daretti in Mud-type decks. Mud decks go hellbent probably just as fast if not faster than Tezzeret. In Mud he is insane, but of course their welding targets are even more backbracking than ours.

If we want to get cards into the graveyard more quickly and more reliably to enable more delving, I would probably start looking at Thirst for Knowledge again. Drawing three cards as a trade for discarding a useless Mox Diamond and adding +2 (or +3) to delve seems kinda nice.

[bonkotsu]

I have been testing Monastery Siege at my LGS. The loots have been solid, I even started keeping a dice to see how many times I loot with it a game, and the loots have won me games turns and turns faster. Not 100 percent sure if I am sold on it though

[Cabs]

I'm looking to test this deck and want to ask a question about the BUG/Jund matchup...

Given that Abrupt Decay and Liliana etc are horrible for us, what are the best possible sideboard slots for these matchups? I know The Abyss helps deal with their threats but is it also worth playing stuff to reduce the effectiveness of Decay et al? Misdirection? Spellskite? Anything else you can think of? Notion Thief always seems good against BUG...

Cheers!

[Undomian]

I have been testing Monastery Siege at my LGS. The loots have been solid, I even started keeping a dice to see how many times I loot with it a game, and the loots have won me games turns and turns faster. Not 100 percent sure if I am sold on it though

I ended up personally really disliking it because of how slow it was, even given its versatility. This card probably needed to loot on end step or something to be really playable, I think.


I'm looking to test this deck and want to ask a question about the BUG/Jund matchup...

Given that Abrupt Decay and Liliana etc are horrible for us, what are the best possible sideboard slots for these matchups? I know The Abyss helps deal with their threats but is it also worth playing stuff to reduce the effectiveness of Decay et al? Misdirection? Spellskite? Anything else you can think of? Notion Thief always seems good against BUG...

Cheers!

The problem with cards like Spellskite, Guardian Beast, Goblin Welder, and co. are that while they do "turn off" Abrupt Decay, they also turn on Liliana's -2 ability. Misdirection is probably our best card to try to fight against it. Your best bet at beating multiple Abrupt Decays is to bait your opponent into Decaying permanents that don't really matter, then play the ones that do.

[Ellomdian]

I'm looking to test this deck and want to ask a question about the BUG/Jund matchup...

Given that Abrupt Decay and Liliana etc are horrible for us, what are the best possible sideboard slots for these matchups?


Misdirection is probably our best card to try to fight against it. Your best bet at beating multiple Abrupt Decays is to bait your opponent into Decaying permanents that don't really matter, then play the ones that do.

I swear by my 2 SB Misdirections, and they come in for pretty much any matchup where Decay is a thing. I don't really have problems with Lili, but I still have JTMS and a Staff of Nin main, so YMMV. Lodestone is also very good against most midrange decks, as you typically just need to delay them for a turn or 2 to get your action online. Remember, you don't have to answer your opponent's cards if your opponent is just dead. Against typical midrange strategies, you want to be the beatdown - don't try to be cute, get a wincon online, and just do it. Tezz is your BFF.


I ended up personally really disliking it because of how slow it was, even given its versatility. This card probably needed to loot on end step or something to be really playable, I think.

Truth. Don't get me wrong, if you want to tap out on T2 for a permanent that dies to Decay and doesn't do anything until your next upkeep in a format where people can actually just straight up kill you on T3 just to get a loot out of your next draw step, be my guest (to say nothing of including a block of terrible topdecks in your list.) Apparently I am playing in the wrong kinds of environments :cool:

Side note: Screw Burn. At least when Cruise was a thing my technology of Sun Droplet was friggin' amazing, as it was splash damage against UR Tempo. I really want to just shove some Urza's Armors in the board at this point. /ragetilt

[laserstone]

Hey, prospective Tezz player here. Could someone more experienced tell me about the deck's matchups? What decks/cards does it have trouble with, and what archetypes does it beat?
How would it perform in my local meta? (my meta's got a good amount of Death/Taxes/Maverick and BUG, with a couple miracles, delver, elves and storm).