[Primer] Elves!

[Benjammn]

9 Fetchlands
2 Forest
2 Bayou
2 Dryad Arbor
4 Gaea's Cradle

I am at 19 lands, 13 real. This is slightly greedy. I want to get to 20 but have not found the strength to make painful cuts. I almost want to just throw that 20th land in there and run 61.

Ruric Thar looks silly on paper, but in practice he is amazing. I remember when catmint first suggested it, he caught a lot of flak. But he was right and Ruric Thar has definitely earned his SB slot. Some people even run him in the main.

That's exactly what my post-Savannah-less mana base would like, so I'll probably make the change whenever I can get to a small event for testing. I've admittedly haven't played since the GP since that experience exhausted me and I had IRL things going on, but the new year will bring some SCG events to my area that I definitely want to hit up in light of how well I did with the deck at the GP. The first big change for me will be the addition of Pithing Needle, which I feel is going to make my sideboard so much more flexible. That addition made me want to consider cutting white to make more room in the SB. I have been playing Ruric Thar both MD and SB without Taiga and I think I will continue to do so (SB only right now) since I just love basic forests.

My SB going into the future is looking like this:

3 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Progenitus
1 Ruric Thar
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Pithing Needle
1 empty slot (I have the 4th NO in the MD)

Speaking of...is the reason most people don't run all 4 NO in the MD because of concerns with drawing more than one (especially in the opening hand)? I've been playing all 4 in the MD since right before the GP and absolutely loved it...I just feel kinda like a black sheep for doing so. I had cut 1 Quirion Ranger at the GP for it, but I realized that was wrong and would cut one of the three Llanowar Elves I played instead.

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

Speaking of...is the reason most people don't run all 4 NO in the MD because of concerns with drawing more than one (especially in the opening hand)? I've been playing all 4 in the MD since right before the GP and absolutely loved it...I just feel kinda like a black sheep for doing so. I had cut 1 Quirion Ranger at the GP for it, but I realized that was wrong and would cut one of the three Llanowar Elves I played instead.

For what it's worth, I do the same thing (and go with 1 fewer mana dorks). I find it to be fruitful, as well.

[Echelon]

Lemnear you are absolutely right. I didn't think of it along those lines. But in the case of Ruric Thar, people began actually testing it and only after several people came back to the thread with positive testing results did we all discover how good Ruric Thar could be. In the case of Bane, that testing hasn't happened just yet. And based on the meta, I'm not sure that testing even needs to happen.

I have a GPT coming up the 28th, I'll get back to you with the results (be it a X-0-0 streak or 0-X-0). I'll also try to keep an eye on what the players I don't face are playing :smile:

[MD.Ghost]

I also beat miracle at a magiccardmarket.eu tournament this year because i used ruric as a maindeck weapon (from the day his set was legal). If you face sensei's diving top and smell terminus, blindly finish with Craterhoof can still be result in an empty board. I NO into Ruric and eat the expected terminus. The 6 damage won me the game in the later turns, because i grind it out besides sweeper and counterbalance and finished before entreat catch me. Without my play into Ruric i wouldn won the game.

Even against TNN, Ruric is not the worst Creature (besides you ran into TNN with Jitte, but in this case you face a scary situation anyway). With Ruric i was able to win more Game 1 matches against various storm combo decks, which feels quite good because it isnt so easy for elves and i don't want to hope for game 2 and 3.

Sure Ruric is very bad against Death & Taxes, but this matchup is most of the time very good for us. Game 2 you switch Ruric with Progenitus for some "win more" moves.

Personally i have won more games with Ruric, compared to situation were i missed the 2nd Craterhoof (which still happens sometimes). Overall it is personal preference.

[yaWgnorW]

Since the Meekstone discussion a couple pages back I've been testing it online. I've become a fan honestly vs most tempo decks. Although one loss was pretty hard to RUG Delver after it had resolved (lots of turns w/o Elves) its been good. My question is, what is a solid number to run? I mean, I know a ton can influence that, but what would you guys run given whats popular right now. Initially I was just throwing out numbers and saying 3, but that felt clunky sometimes, so 2 seems nice. Thoughts?

[danyul]

I am also running 2 Meekstone in addition to 2 Pithing Needle. They have been great so far and nobody expects those cards from an Elf deck. Creative use of these cards also allows you to be a bit more conservative with your Abrupt Decays.

[Shagstaman]

what did you cut for it? the sb seems so TIGHT. I guess you're not running teeg so there's that.. but what else?

what matchups do you bring in needle for? (obv ones are sneak, vial decks, and painter...what else tho)

[danyul]

My current SB -

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Pithing Needle
2 Meekstone
1 Natural Order
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Progenitus
1 Ruric Thar
3 Abrupt Decay

Clearly I have made some concessions here by going down to 4 discard spells but you gotta do what you gotta do.

Needle comes in against Sensei's Divining Top, Grim Lavamancer, Jitte, Sneak Attack, Griselbrand, Goblin Sharpshooter, and Pernicious Deed. I have even brought it in against Manaless Dredge and named Phantasmagorian. That's all I can think of right now. But it's currently my favorite SB card because it's kinda fun to see all the crazy things you can hit with it. You will be surprised.

Also the Needle is Julian's tech. Props to him for that one.

[Eternal]

My current SB -

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Pithing Needle
2 Meekstone
1 Natural Order
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Progenitus
1 Ruric Thar
3 Abrupt Decay

Clearly I have made some concessions here by going down to 4 discard spells but you gotta do what you gotta do.

Needle comes in against Sensei's Divining Top, Grim Lavamancer, Jitte, Sneak Attack, Griselbrand, Goblin Sharpshooter, and Pernicious Deed. I have even brought it in against Manaless Dredge and named Phantasmagorian. That's all I can think of right now. But it's currently my favorite SB card because it's kinda fun to see all the crazy things you can hit with it. You will be surprised.

Also the Needle is Julian's tech. Props to him for that one.

We can win without meekstone in my tests. As I said, the card is good only against Rug delver and patriot, meekstone reinforces these match up but is not decisive.

What's better in your opinion : Null Rod or Needle ? I am very reluctant between these two cards. The difference is in Storm and SneakShow match up. In one, we prefer null rod and needle in the other.

Here's my side :
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal therapy
3 Decay
2 Null Rod
1 Ooze
1 Ruric
1 NO
1 Progénitus

I feel comfortable versus Storm with at least 6 discards.


what matchups do you bring in needle for? (obv ones are sneak, vial decks, and painter...what else tho)

Miracle too, obviously. Top, Jace and EE

[danyul]

We can win without meekstone in my tests. As I said, the card is good only against Rug delver and patriot, meekstone reinforces these match up but is not decisive.

What's better in your opinion : Null Rod or Needle ? I am very reluctant between these two cards. The difference is in Storm and SneakShow match up. In one, we prefer null rod and needle in the other.

Here's my side :
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal therapy
3 Decay
2 Null Rod
1 Ooze
1 Ruric
1 NO
1 Progénitus

I feel comfortable versus Storm with at least 6 discards.

My tournament record VS tempo decks is something stupid like 1-X. My tournament record VS Sneak Attack and other Combo decks is also stupidly something like X-1. So while you might prefer discard over Meekstone, my luck/playstyle/karma requires that I tune my SB in the other direction. This is why discussing SBs, which should be tuned for your regional meta and playstyle, can be tricky.

IRT Null Rod VS Needle, I think that depends on your expected meta. From what I understand, Storm is a significant presence in the European meta. But does Null Rod do enough against them? I'm no Storm expert, but I've seen them win often enough without having to use Lotus Petal/LED. Would leaning on discard/Ruric Thar be a more effective gameplan against them? I'm not sure.

[Eternal]

To give you a sense of the metagame in Paris and because it can be instructive, here's the meta on a trial BoM :)

5 UW Miracle

2 Elves
2 Jund
2 Bant
2 Patriot
2 Enchantress
2 Tin fins/ Reanimator
2 Death and Taxes
2 Mono Black

1 Mono Red Sneak Attack
1 Sneak Show
1 Omniclash
1 Rock
2 BUG Delver
1 BUG Shardless
1 BURG Cascade
1 High Tide
1 WBR Stoneblade
1 Tempo *****
1 ANT
1 TES
1 Nic Fit
1 Merfolk

BTW versus Miracle I feel Null rod is better. Obv, each side depends of the local metagame.


But does Null Rod do enough against them?

Totally worth it. On the board, the card is a pure massacre for any Storm player. Of course he can kill you without Led/Petal but the purpose of this card is to save time to get NO/Ruric.

[danyul]

Gotcha. That makes sense.

Now that you have me thinking about it, Null Rod does seem like a very attractive target. It has applications against Storm, Miracles, and Stoneforge decks. I do like the versatility of Needle, though. But you have me second guessing that choice. This will need some testing.

[yaWgnorW]

Been playing some daily's, running some different board variants (getting ready for new year). Thanks for the advice on Meekstone guys. For now, my board is the following


2 Pithing Needle
2 Meekstone
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Natural Order
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Progenitus


Just to explain, I'm currently back to 60 cards main deck, just because I felt I was having less progression with 61 than with the traditional 60. Don't get me wrong, this is just me going back and forth at the moment. If I go back to 61, its between MD Ruric or MD Ooze. I was running with Ooze as a result of the gyard reliant decks/RUG delver meta I've been seeing locally. Obviously either of the two will be a meta call.

I dropped from 6 discard to 4 because I want Meekstone. In the most recent MTGO daily, the 4 decks I played all had TNN and Meekstone did great. Pithing Needle is also staying, its so diverse and I think with the resurgance of blade decks, even Merfolk, and of course Miracles its pretty essential. About the discard, at first I tried Thoughseize but I think due to its nature in the board Cabal is superior for combo mu's. Progenitus I hate, so so much, but there's little that's better. I draw this guy so often (as discussed a few pages back). I've actually seen him less now that I am back to 60 (weird right).

Not sure what I would add if I went back to 61 MD though. I've tried 3 Meekstone, it felt clunky but I would find it each time in tempo mu's. 4th decay to combat the loads of Engineered Plagues I forsee coming? Hmmm

EDIT: Null Rod is interesting as a Needle replacement. 1 cost higher, adds to the Storm mu, still hits Top, equipments, any artifact based board wipe I think...hows it doing? I suppose we have to ask what are some things that Needle can hit that Null Rod can't?

EDIT 2: following up that question, I know Needle helped with Oops All Spells, its a thing online but not so sure about how much in a local meta. It also wouldn't hit Planeswalkers, but honestly any time I could hit a Pwalker its likely to have a Jitte or Top behind it anyway. Sneak Attack (not sure how relevant this is either). Mutavault? I dunno, just what I could think of without diving deep into it.

[danyul]

Yeah I think for now I prefer the versatility of Needle. But I'll keep Null Rod in mind when I'm boarding to see if I ever find myself wishing I had it.

On an unrelated note, I went undefeated at my weekly after watching Elf. And then another elf pilot told me they went 3-1 after watching Elf as well. There might be something to this. I'M JUST SAYING. Give it a try. It couldn't hurt.

http://i.imgur.com/3oWg02s.jpg

Have a good holiday everybody!

[yaWgnorW]

Yeah I think for now I prefer the versatility of Needle. But I'll keep Null Rod in mind when I'm boarding to see if I ever find myself wishing I had it.

On an unrelated note, I went undefeated at my weekly after watching Elf. And then another elf pilot told me they went 3-1 after watching Elf as well. There might be something to this. I'M JUST SAYING. Give it a try. It couldn't hurt.

http://i.imgur.com/3oWg02s.jpg

Have a good holiday everybody!

Watched it a week ago...went 3-1 some point after. hmmmm

[Tormod]

Yeah I think for now I prefer the versatility of Needle. But I'll keep Null Rod in mind when I'm boarding to see if I ever find myself wishing I had it.

On an unrelated note, I went undefeated at my weekly after watching Elf. And then another elf pilot told me they went 3-1 after watching Elf as well. There might be something to this. I'M JUST SAYING. Give it a try. It couldn't hurt.

http://i.imgur.com/3oWg02s.jpg

Have a good holiday everybody!

That makes me want to get the deck altered to reflect the characters and scenes from the movie.

Sleeves with the movie poster as art would be hilarious.

[danyul]

We need to see pics if you ever do that.

[yaWgnorW]

Versus ANT what do you guys prefer to name first with Cabal Therapy?

Dark Ritual
LED
Infernal Tutor
something else?

[Dice_Box]

LED. It's both a mana source and a way to get tutor online. Don't forget that without it, every land they draw is another turn they have to wait to get to Hellbent.

[yaWgnorW]

LED. It's both a mana source and a way to get tutor online. Don't forget that without it, every land they draw is another turn they have to wait to get to Hellbent.

Yeah, this is what I've been naming. Looks like I shouldn't change that then.

[Lemnear]

Versus ANT what do you guys prefer to name first with Cabal Therapy?

Dark Ritual
LED
Infernal Tutor
something else?

LED without the slightet doubt ... a +3 mana source that turns on Infernal Tutor which is otherwise a crappy card

[Infinitium]

Turn 1 on the play I'd name LED (as have been mentioned, it's their MVP for the most part). Turn 1 on the draw assume they've played out potential acceleration and either go for Infernal Tutor unless they have access to U, at which point I'd strongly consider playing a creature instead to circumvent brainstorm. If you can hit them twice without passing the turn name Brainstorm to ensure that the second Therapy connects. If they brainstorm in response to the first therapy just name some Ritual and hope for the best (since competent players will hide away their money cards unless they smell Surgical Extraction). Of course, if you do happen to have extraction on hand feel free not to name brainstorm and see if you can force them to shuffle away their business.

Don't let it's reputation intimidate you; Therapy is a fairly easy card to utilize efficiently even with a modest amount of metagame knowledge. Name the cards you lose to in any given matchup early on, then reactive cards they're likely to hold on to (brainstorm, removal, counters).

[Echelon]

Concerning Peedle/Null Rod:

I prefer the Peedle, since it can also be used against some important non-artifact cards (Goblin Sharpshooter, Mother of Runes to prevent nasty recurrable targeting tricks with Spellskite opposing our Viridian Shaman, Grim Lavamancer, Gempalm Incinerator and planeswalkers in general).

I'm deliberately not naming SFM, by the way, since Null Rod will stop anything it puts on the battlefield.

Besides, I also feel that most decks you'd use Null Rod against often only have 1 or 2 different threats that would be affected by the Null Rod and often might be handled just as well by the Peedle for 1 less mana (yes, there are exceptions ofcourse, like the aforementioned LED or the Affinity/MUD MU in general which is already quite favorable for us) or could be destroyed with our Viridian Shaman.

I think the Null Rod would be best in a meta where you'd expect a lot of Storm/Dredge since, like Eternal mentioned, it stops LEDs/Petals. I also agree that it'd be better against the UW Miracles MU, since it dodges the Chalice for X = 1.

[Alexeezay]

Miracles doesn't play Chalice :D Nonetheless I would like to test Null Rod

[Mammutti]

Miracles doesn't play Chalice :D Nonetheless I would like to test Null Rod

I believe by Chalice on 1 he meant CB Top combination, virtually a chalice.

I like the idea of Null Rod tho. Needs some testing. However, my gut tells me to stick with the Needles. Namely because of Sharpshooter, Deed and PWs. If only could Needle stop Punishing Fire. Do you guys find PF to be troublesome? The only place where I would want the Rod instead of Needle is against decks packing Jitte and EE. (And LED decks, sure.)

[Echelon]

I believe by Chalice on 1 he meant CB Top combination, virtually a chalice.

I like the idea of Null Rod tho. Needs some testing. However, my gut tells me to stick with the Needles. Namely because of Sharpshooter, Deed and PWs. If only could Needle stop Punishing Fire. Do you guys find PF to be troublesome? The only place where I would want the Rod instead of Needle is against decks packing Jitte and EE. (And LED decks, sure.)

That's very kind of you, but I didn't mean that - that was just me mixing up 2 entirely different decks.

Punishing Fire can be tough when they can deal with your first few guys through a couple of Lightning Bolts and then quickly getting the engine online. If it takes them a while or they're a bit tight on mana, you often have some time to draw into a NO.

[Eternal]

Needle versus Miracle is not enough versatile in my opinion. Lock Top OR EE, while Null rod lock these 2 things in one card. Same versus Esperblade, instead of naming one equipment like Jitte or SoFI (or EE !), Null rod locks all these crappy cards in one time ! It's really an important advantage.

But in my great regret, Rod is useless vs S&T. Naming Sneak attack or grisel with needle was pretty good.

PS : Pithing locks Jace too, but this guy is not decisive vs Elves.

[Zombie]

Needle versus Miracle is not enough versatile in my opinion. Lock Top OR EE, while Null rod lock these 2 things in one card. Same versus Esperblade, instead of naming one equipment like Jitte or SoFI (or EE !), Null rod locks all these crappy cards in one time ! It's really an important advantage.

But in my great regret, Rod is useless vs S&T. Naming Sneak attack or grisel with needle was pretty good.

PS : Pithing locks Jace too, but this guy is not decisive vs Elves.

Rod also locks Helm of Obedience vs. Miracles. I think the main question is which hurts Storm and other combo decks more - Rod or Thorn. Because if the impact is good enough, Thorns can just be replaced with Null Rods for nice gains in many matchups without the loss of Pithing Needle vs. Sneak and Show.

[Eternal]

I never liked thorn, because I have the impression that it's absolutely not decisive. This card get a really good value only against storm. We need versatility.

If sideboards could contain more than 15 cards, am sure thorn will be on the "reserved list".

I feel Miracle is our worst match up, more than Storm or Sneak and show (anyway, that's subjective). From there, Null rod is better than any other "lock-card" like thorn or pithing.

[Dice_Box]

Maybe I am in a minority, but with Decay, Shaman and Discard, I have found Miracles to be painful but not as bad as ANT or other hyper aggressive Combo decks.

[yaWgnorW]

Maybe I am in a minority, but with Decay, Shaman and Discard, I have found Miracles to be painful but not as bad as ANT or other hyper aggressive Combo decks.

I have found ANT not to be as painful with fair amounts of discard and Ruric. Its the turn 1 hyper aggressive decks, IE. Oops All Spells, etc. that are painful for me. The inclusion of Pithing Needle has further helped that MU, however, you just have to hope they don't have a hand with 2 forms of win.

With Miracles, I just don't know. I've dropped my Decay count to 2, but also have 2 Needles, so with Discard I think it still may be ok post board.

I'm still toying with my board and main deck...meaning 60 or 61. Somethings are practical other things a stretch. I'm really happy with 2 Pithing Needle, 2 Meekstone being a part of my board, however I feel any less than 6 discard spells is going to greatly affect combo MU's. This has put my Abrupt Decay count to 2, versus my preferred 3. Thing is, most of the time I bring in Decays I find myself bringing in either Needle or Meekstone anyway, so it takes some pressure off of the Decays as we've been discussing. So the 2 count of Decay may be just fine.

That puts my current board at 6 Discard (Thoughtseize/Cabal), 2 Needle, 2 Meekstone, 2 Decay, 1 NO (13)

Right now my board and main is without Scavenging Ooze, and I'm looking at some more oddball test things, such as putting a big drop like Prog or Worldspine Wurm in the main, and boarding Ruric. Ooze has been amazing main board however, that I can confirm, but It can be a total flop depending on your meta.

[Echelon]

Right now my board and main is without Scavenging Ooze, and I'm looking at some more oddball test things, such as putting a big drop like Prog or Worldspine Wurm in the main, and boarding Ruric. Ooze has been amazing main board however, that I can confirm, but It can be a total flop depending on your meta.

I once used Ooze in a match where my opponent had a Chalice of the Void for 1 on the board. I used his Chalice to counter all my 1-drops so that I could feed my Ooze. It grew pretty big pretty fast and won the game all on it's own :smile:

Edit: Went 3-1-1 into top 8 yesterday. The draw was an ID against a goblins player which I crushed during a casual game following the ID. Got kicked out of the top 8 in the first round by Mitchell Manders piloting RUG Delver. I faced 2 UWR SFM/TNN decks yesterday (won the first match, lost the second), a UWB SFM build, Merfolk, Goblins & RUG Delver yesterday so didn't need the Bane at all. Also didn't need Ruric Thar, unfortunately. Most Storm-ish decks were kicked to the lower tables rather quickly. Didn't see any form of Show and Tell the entire day.

I want to add some cards against RUG Delver-ish MU's rather then discard and Scavenging Ooze. Would Meekstone suffice to stop the beats? Or does anyone have any other suggestions?

[Havoc]

Went 4-0 at my local Legacy event without dropping a single game. Played against Sneak and Show, Esper Blade, Lands, and RUG Delver with Stifle. My current list:
1 Birchlore Rangers
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Heritage Druid
1 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Viridian Shaman
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
2 Bayou
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
4 Gaea's Cradle
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard
1 Progenitus
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Grafdigger's Cage

R1: Sneak and Show
Game 1: he sees not counter magic just can-trips and hoof gets there on turn 4
Game 2: Way more interactive with him countering all my 1 drops which to me was a mistake. Turn 3 he runs low on counter and im able to steal 2 ponder out of his hand with a blind cabal therapy. He had a show and tell in hand and I followed up with a pithing needle on sneak attack. He rips the sneak attack plays it but never sees a creature before I Glimpse chain and swing for lethal a turn later.

R2: Esper Blade
Game 1: he keeps a really good hand but didn’t have a counter for the natural order on turn 4. He blocks what he can but doesn’t draw the verdict so I kill him next turn.
Game 2: he gets meddling mages on turn 2 and 3 naming glimpse and NO in that order which kills my 1 glimpse 2 NO hand. I return the favor by dropping both my pithing needles on jitte and stoneforge which hurts his only way to kill me. We play draw go until I top deck a craterhoof after I’ve played out 9 elves. I land the craterhoof and kill him. He tells me after that he had a verdict in hand but he feared me going off with glimpse and no in hand without a counter

R3: Lands
Game 1: he mulls down to 5 and has to keep a hand with spells but no colored lands. He’s able to port my cradle until I draw a second and hard-cast a craterhoof.
Game 2: he keeps a loose hand with only a grove for mana and 3 gambles. I proceed to hit the 3 lands he gambles for on random discard. Hes forced to start to use the grove for colored mana. After gaining around 15 life and being held off by a ensnaring bridge and a chasm he gets low enough for me to green-sun for Ruric. Hes caught with having to stay behind a the bridge until I top deck the shaman blow it up and swing with a massive team.

R4: RUG with Stifle
Game 1: he stifles and counters all my little dudes so when I fetch up some dryad arbors and a craterhoof he can’t stop the trees from getting there.
Game 2: he lands and early delver but I rip a decay to deal with it. He then lands a gofy but again I rip the decay. I then overload the board with elves while he stifles as many come into play affects as he can. A craterhoof later and its over

Walked away with 3 cunning wishes and sleeves. Afterwards everyone asked what was the best way to stop me. I told them to stop countering and stifling all my 1 drops and it would be quicker lol.

[yaWgnorW]

Went 4-0 at my local Legacy event without dropping a single game. Played against Sneak and Show, Esper Blade, Lands, and RUG Delver with Stifle. My current list:
1 Birchlore Rangers
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Heritage Druid
1 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Viridian Shaman
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
2 Bayou
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
4 Gaea's Cradle
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard
1 Progenitus
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Grafdigger's Cage

R1: Sneak and Show
Game 1: he sees not counter magic just can-trips and hoof gets there on turn 4
Game 2: Way more interactive with him countering all my 1 drops which to me was a mistake. Turn 3 he runs low on counter and im able to steal 2 ponder out of his hand with a blind cabal therapy. He had a show and tell in hand and I followed up with a pithing needle on sneak attack. He rips the sneak attack plays it but never sees a creature before I Glimpse chain and swing for lethal a turn later.

R2: Esper Blade
Game 1: he keeps a really good hand but didn’t have a counter for the natural order on turn 4. He blocks what he can but doesn’t draw the verdict so I kill him next turn.
Game 2: he gets meddling mages on turn 2 and 3 naming glimpse and NO in that order which kills my 1 glimpse 2 NO hand. I return the favor by dropping both my pithing needles on jitte and stoneforge which hurts his only way to kill me. We play draw go until I top deck a craterhoof after I’ve played out 9 elves. I land the craterhoof and kill him. He tells me after that he had a verdict in hand but he feared me going off with glimpse and no in hand without a counter

R3: Lands
Game 1: he mulls down to 5 and has to keep a hand with spells but no colored lands. He’s able to port my cradle until I draw a second and hard-cast a craterhoof.
Game 2: he keeps a loose hand with only a grove for mana and 3 gambles. I proceed to hit the 3 lands he gambles for on random discard. Hes forced to start to use the grove for colored mana. After gaining around 15 life and being held off by a ensnaring bridge and a chasm he gets low enough for me to green-sun for Ruric. Hes caught with having to stay behind a the bridge until I top deck the shaman blow it up and swing with a massive team.

R4: RUG with Stifle
Game 1: he stifles and counters all my little dudes so when I fetch up some dryad arbors and a craterhoof he can’t stop the trees from getting there.
Game 2: he lands and early delver but I rip a decay to deal with it. He then lands a gofy but again I rip the decay. I then overload the board with elves while he stifles as many come into play affects as he can. A craterhoof later and its over

Walked away with 3 cunning wishes and sleeves. Afterwards everyone asked what was the best way to stop me. I told them to stop countering and stifling all my 1 drops and it would be quicker lol.

Nice job, funny they focused so much on your 1 drops. I noticed you are runnnig 17 lands (19 with Dryad) over the norm 20, and it seems to be in favor for the 4th NO. How does the 19 land treat you? and how does the 4th NO treat you?

[Havoc]

i like the 19 lands. use to run 20 with a taiga and 61 maindeck but i was running into mana flooded hands or top decking to many. now it feels a little better. i was trying the 4th NO main this weekend for the first time and i like it a lot. if my meta was more control id take it back out but all ive played against lately is dethblade for control so its great. for now its main it adds a good level of consistency to see one. i like my opponents face when i turn 4 one they counter and i just turn 5 one to.

[Lemnear]

Running Ruric Thar in your Maindeck to catch storm game 1, but only 3 NO at the same time, made never much sense to me...

[LeoCop 90]

With the meta heavily shifting towards blade decks, i feel like progenitus main deck could be good, better than ruric. If only we had a way to discard him when we unfortunately draw into him...

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

Went 4-0 at my local Legacy event without dropping a single game. Played against Sneak and Show, Esper Blade, Lands, and RUG Delver with Stifle. My current list:
1 Birchlore Rangers
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Heritage Druid
1 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Viridian Shaman
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
2 Bayou
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
4 Gaea's Cradle
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard
1 Progenitus
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Grafdigger's Cage

R1: Sneak and Show
Game 1: he sees not counter magic just can-trips and hoof gets there on turn 4
Game 2: Way more interactive with him countering all my 1 drops which to me was a mistake. Turn 3 he runs low on counter and im able to steal 2 ponder out of his hand with a blind cabal therapy. He had a show and tell in hand and I followed up with a pithing needle on sneak attack. He rips the sneak attack plays it but never sees a creature before I Glimpse chain and swing for lethal a turn later.

R2: Esper Blade
Game 1: he keeps a really good hand but didn’t have a counter for the natural order on turn 4. He blocks what he can but doesn’t draw the verdict so I kill him next turn.
Game 2: he gets meddling mages on turn 2 and 3 naming glimpse and NO in that order which kills my 1 glimpse 2 NO hand. I return the favor by dropping both my pithing needles on jitte and stoneforge which hurts his only way to kill me. We play draw go until I top deck a craterhoof after I’ve played out 9 elves. I land the craterhoof and kill him. He tells me after that he had a verdict in hand but he feared me going off with glimpse and no in hand without a counter

R3: Lands
Game 1: he mulls down to 5 and has to keep a hand with spells but no colored lands. He’s able to port my cradle until I draw a second and hard-cast a craterhoof.
Game 2: he keeps a loose hand with only a grove for mana and 3 gambles. I proceed to hit the 3 lands he gambles for on random discard. Hes forced to start to use the grove for colored mana. After gaining around 15 life and being held off by a ensnaring bridge and a chasm he gets low enough for me to green-sun for Ruric. Hes caught with having to stay behind a the bridge until I top deck the shaman blow it up and swing with a massive team.

R4: RUG with Stifle
Game 1: he stifles and counters all my little dudes so when I fetch up some dryad arbors and a craterhoof he can’t stop the trees from getting there.
Game 2: he lands and early delver but I rip a decay to deal with it. He then lands a gofy but again I rip the decay. I then overload the board with elves while he stifles as many come into play affects as he can. A craterhoof later and its over

Walked away with 3 cunning wishes and sleeves. Afterwards everyone asked what was the best way to stop me. I told them to stop countering and stifling all my 1 drops and it would be quicker lol.

Way to go. I'm wondering how you side-boarded each match. Also, do you think Grafdigger's Cage is helpful to you? I'm asking because it really undermines your Green Sun's Zeniths and Natural Orders.

[Julian23]

Played in the "Big Legacy Trial" at the German Magic end-of-year event in Hanau yesterday. I ran a list with 3 Swan Songs in the sideboard and I absolutely love them. I went 4-0-2 in the Swiss, then lost in the Semis. Today's the main event and I got 1 Bye :smile:

R1: Omniclash 2-0
R2: Esperblade 2-0
R3: TES 2-1
R4: Miracles ID (he offered it)
R5: Esperblade 2-1
R6: Imperial Painter ID (I "let" him in after asking what he plays)

1/4 Finals: Death & Taxes 2-0
1/2 Finals: TES 0-2 (same as in Swiss, he now boarded Xantid Swarms, lol)

[Lemnear]

Played in the "Big Legacy Trial" at the German Magic end-of-year event in Hanau yesterday. I ran a list with 3 Swan Songs in the sideboard and I absolutely love them. I went 4-0-2 in the Swiss, then lost in the Semis. Today's the main event and I got 1 Bye :smile:

R1: Omniclash 2-0
R2: Esperblade 2-0
R3: TES 2-1
R4: Miracles ID (he offered it)
R5: Esperblade 2-1
R6: Imperial Painter ID (I "let" him in after asking what he plays)

1/4 Finals: Death & Taxes 2-0
1/2 Finals: TES 0-2 (same as in Swiss, he now boarded Xantid Swarms, lol)

WTF?! Xantid Swarm? TES players should simply learn which hands to keep and which to mull against other combo decks ;D

[Dice_Box]

What does ID mean on the report?

[Lemnear]

What does ID mean on the report?

Intentional Draw

[TiMeWaLk]

Played in the "Big Legacy Trial" at the German Magic end-of-year event in Hanau yesterday. I ran a list with 3 Swan Songs in the sideboard and I absolutely love them. I went 4-0-2 in the Swiss, then lost in the Semis. Today's the main event and I got 1 Bye :smile:

R1: Omniclash 2-0
R2: Esperblade 2-0
R3: TES 2-1
R4: Miracles ID (he offered it)
R5: Esperblade 2-1
R6: Imperial Painter ID (I "let" him in after asking what he plays)

1/4 Finals: Death & Taxes 2-0
1/2 Finals: TES 0-2 (same as in Swiss, he now boarded Xantid Swarms, lol)

Do you think Swan Song is better than Envelop? It targets Sneak Attack but you cannot attack him with your 1/1s

[Eternal]

I tested the card. And give a chump blocker to the opponent is bad for Elves. I prefer envelop.


It targets Sneak Attack but you cannot attack him with your 1/1s

That's the problem.

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

Played in the "Big Legacy Trial" at the German Magic end-of-year event in Hanau yesterday. I ran a list with 3 Swan Songs in the sideboard and I absolutely love them.

I've used them when I also experimented with other blue cards (like call). I found them useful, but in the end, not as helpful or versatile as discard. So I wonder if it's really worth the splash. When did you board them in? What did you drop from your board to try them?

[Shagstaman]

Way to go. I'm wondering how you side-boarded each match. Also, do you think Grafdigger's Cage is helpful to you? I'm asking because it really undermines your Green Sun's Zeniths and Natural Orders.

I had a reanimator player literally curse at me for bringing in cage against him...he was all like "dont you know that turns off your spells too!?" and the thing is...if you auto-lose to him reanimating an elesh norn is it worse to have 7 dead spells?? I didn't think so when I was the one carrying the match slip up to the front. ;)

cage is good, and the fastest/best answer for reanimator IMO (other things can be played around and ooze/drs is often a turn too slow..)-- if reanimator became a thing again, cage is definitely a good choice.

[Shagstaman]

cabal therapy can't be xantid swarmed and can potentially "counter" multiple cards ;)

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

I had a reanimator player literally curse at me for bringing in cage against him...he was all like "dont you know that turns off your spells too!?" and the thing is...if you auto-lose to him reanimating an elesh norn is it worse to have 7 dead spells?? I didn't think so when I was the one carrying the match slip up to the front. ;)

cage is good, and the fastest/best answer for reanimator IMO (other things can be played around and ooze/drs is often a turn too slow..)-- if reanimator became a thing again, cage is definitely a good choice.

I don't disagree that Grafdigger's Cage is very effective against graveyard decks, like reanimator. That said, I think it is far too effective against us, especially when you've chosen to play only one in your sideboard. Put at least three in your sideboard, and you're going to have a more consistent plan to deal with a meta that is filled with graveyard decks. With just one, you're counting on a lot of luck and NOT using the strengths of the rest of the deck. If you test it, and I suggest that you do, one Scavenging Ooze and your Deathrite Shamans will serve you better, especially when you consider that you also have to optimize your sideboard.

In the end, to each his/her own. But for my taste, you would never see just one Grafdigger's Cage in my sideboard and you'd only find three in there in a meta where I'm expecting at least 25% of the decks to be graveyard intensive--and even then, I'd probably sooner take Tormod's Crypt or Relic of Progenitus.

[Lemnear]

Julian's still flawless in round 4 of the End-of-Year-Event of PlanetMTG in Hanau/Germany! 119 players!

Sad I couldn't make it :(

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

Julian's still flawless in round 4 of the End-of-Year-Event of PlanetMTG in Hanau/Germany! 119 players!

Sad I couldn't make it :(

Thanks for the update. Are they streaming these games? I saw, thanks to your post, that he's at the top of the leader board. Go Julian!

[danyul]

There doesn't appear to be a stream but you can follow the standings here:

http://www.planetmtg.de/articles/artikel.html?id=6603&typ=2&action=comments

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

There doesn't appear to be a stream but you can follow the standings here:

http://www.planetmtg.de/articles/artikel.html?id=6603&typ=2&action=comments

There where I say his standing, as well. I do appreciate Google Translate, as my German is quite limited.

[yaWgnorW]

Thanks for providing the links guys. Wish I could have made it. I look forward to seeing Julians list. Swan Song is interesting of course, a while back some Elf players were trying out various counters but I dont remember much significance coming from it. Looking forward to seeing it how it really works.

[Havoc]

I don't disagree that Grafdigger's Cage is very effective against graveyard decks, like reanimator. That said, I think it is far too effective against us, especially when you've chosen to play only one in your sideboard. Put at least three in your sideboard, and you're going to have a more consistent plan to deal with a meta that is filled with graveyard decks. With just one, you're counting on a lot of luck and NOT using the strengths of the rest of the deck. If you test it, and I suggest that you do, one Scavenging Ooze and your Deathrite Shamans will serve you better, especially when you consider that you also have to optimize your sideboard.

In the end, to each his/her own. But for my taste, you would never see just one Grafdigger's Cage in my sideboard and you'd only find three in there in a meta where I'm expecting at least 25% of the decks to be graveyard intensive--and even then, I'd probably sooner take Tormod's Crypt or Relic of Progenitus.

grafdiggers cage is amazing but it takes some understanding and the right elf build to utilize it. not that you are in anyway inexperienced at the deck but i had to learn how to play it with elves. i have lots of dredge, reanimator and opposing elf's in my meta. because of this Ive had to adjust and the cage is my hay-maker. when it comes in i actually side out NO and green suns. usually its -2 of each. while i know that's heresy among elf players it can be of use. no one expects me to hurt myself so its always a surprise when i land it. against opposing elf list they're siding in their last NO and im removing mine. when this happens i go the glimpse and a hard-casted hoof for the win. i actually run 2 cages if there's more reanimator and elves but i traded it out for the relic because of the RUG and Jund match-ups. the cage isn't for everyone but i think if more elf's, reanimator,and dredge are around its a good surprise for them

[Julian23]

I Top8'ed after drawing the final round then we split the Top4 of the event. Good times! :smile:

R1: *BYE*
R2: Miracles, 2-1 (after receiving a gameloss g1 due to a decklist error, lol)
R3: Manaless Dredge, 2-0
R4: Canadian, 2-1
R5: SneakShow, 1-2
R6: Deathblade, 2-1
R7: Team America, 2-0
R8: Deathblade, ID

1/4 Finals: Punishing Jund, 2-1

Maybe I'll write a small report but I'm too tired right now...

[Havoc]

I Top8'ed after drawing the final round then we split the Top4 of the event. Good times! :smile:

R1: *BYE*
R2: Miracles, 2-1 (after receiving a gameloss g1 due to a decklist error, lol)
R3: Manaless Dredge, 2-0
R4: Canadian, 2-1
R5: Omniclash, 1-2
R6: Deathblade, 2-1
R7: Team America, 2-0
R8: Deathblade, ID

1/4 Finals: Punishing Jund, 2-1

Maybe I'll write a small report but I'm too tired right now...

congrats

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

I Top8'ed after drawing the final round then we split the Top4 of the event. Good times! :smile:

R1: *BYE*
R2: Miracles, 2-1 (after receiving a gameloss g1 due to a decklist error, lol)
R3: Manaless Dredge, 2-0
R4: Canadian, 2-1
R5: Omniclash, 1-2
R6: Deathblade, 2-1
R7: Team America, 2-0
R8: Deathblade, ID

1/4 Finals: Punishing Jund, 2-1

Maybe I'll write a small report but I'm too tired right now...

Way to go!! Sleep well.

[Darklingske]

Another awesome result Julian! Congrats!

[spirit of the wretch]

R5: Omniclash, 1-2

I actually played SneakShow. Just because I did draw almost no creatures in our matches doesn't mean I didn't play them =)

It was a real pleasure playing you!

Grats to top4.

[yaWgnorW]

I Top8'ed after drawing the final round then we split the Top4 of the event. Good times! :smile:

R1: *BYE*
R2: Miracles, 2-1 (after receiving a gameloss g1 due to a decklist error, lol)
R3: Manaless Dredge, 2-0
R4: Canadian, 2-1
R5: SneakShow, 1-2
R6: Deathblade, 2-1
R7: Team America, 2-0
R8: Deathblade, ID

1/4 Finals: Punishing Jund, 2-1

Maybe I'll write a small report but I'm too tired right now...

Personally I'd like to see the decklist + board, since you dropped that you adopted Swan Song.

[Julian23]

I actually played SneakShow.

True! I posted it after returning home at around 3am and going through a Super Street Fighter 2 session with a teammate that I had crashing at my place. We took way too many tries on Deejay...

The day before, I also went into the semifinals of the big Legacy trial, only to lose to TES.
For anyone interested, here's my list:

"Bündnis 76 - Die Grünen" (61 cards)

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
4 Gaea's Cradle

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Heritage Druid
1 Birchlore Ranger
1 Llanowar Elves

2 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order

SB:
3 Thoughtseize
3 Swan Song
2 Mindbreak Trap
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Pithing Needle
1 Progenitus
1 Natural Order

The deck performed awesomely although I took like alltogether 5 mulligans in the match against Stefan (spirit of the wretch). Against Miracles in round2 I just readjusted the difficulty to "Nightmare!" and start with a gameloss due to not registerng my 2 Windswept Heath. Still easily won the match and even had the Swan Song for his Terminus (would he have found it anyways..).

The metagame was mostly Storm Combo, Miracles and Deathblade variants. Also quite a lot of Elves with 2 other players being in competition for Top8 until the penultimate round.

I will definitely stay on the Swan Song plan as the card looks to be just insanely good right now. Bonus: Against Stefan I used it to Swan Song my own Green Sun's Zenith (with Grafdigger's Cage on the table) to get a 2/2 Flier to keep racing while he was Brainstorm-locked.

[fluuu]

Why u actually guys dont play cavern of souls?

[Lans89]

Elves beats a lot of combo decks by slamming down all creatures, while playing discard, hate and flashback Therapy's, and then kick for maybe only 2-5 dmg a turn. This way you still kill them while they might have countered some of your win-cons. Don't you think giving your combo opponent a 2/2 blocker nullifies that plan? As some guys above already mentioned, there are some other counter-options. But I know it is also awesome to counter enchantments! Anyway, gratz on your finish =)!

@Fluuu: Mostly because of the interaction of forests with Quirion Ranger =)!

[Julian23]

I tried it a lot on Magic Online after the BoM (in place of the Taiga) and it was ok while randomly blowing out Miracles with it. For this tournament though, there was no other land to cut for the Tropical Island so I exchanged these two. Scavenging Ooze was promoted to the maindeck in the process to make more room for anti-combo cards in the sideboard.

Really, giving your opponent a 2/2 Swan Token is the least of your concerns. Especially with Wirewood Symbiote on the table.

[Dice_Box]

On a roll man, well done.

Cavern does not see play as is is not a fetch or a fetch target. Add in coloured mana needed for 11/12 other spells and it just gets in the way.

[Zombie]

Yup. One look at Julian's list and I'm running it. Holyfuckingshit that thing is delicious.

[danyul]

The Champ is at it again! That's a spicy list. Congrats on another great performance! You make me wanna track down some foil Swan Songs.

[Shagstaman]

maybe when I get a trop I'll try it out =)

ruric thar main still seems like a europe-only thing for now..

what all do you bring swan song in against exactly? seems like some matchups the discard would be strictly better.

ionno!!

[danyul]

Swan Song + Discard seems like a package deal against most combo decks.

[matty]

Well I just ordered some swan songs lol

[Shagstaman]

danyul, yea I guess I'm curious to know the reasoning for it over more discard from Julian tho... since all my storm opponents seem to duress me before attempting to combo off, and all my show opponents lose if they don't have counter backup already (for my discard or glimpse turn).

Guess I am just skeptical by nature! Julian is obviously the man, but I feel like this is a bandwagon that only european players should jump on...the US metagame doesn't seem ripe for swan song yet (at least in the eastern US, the discard + discard package has been devastating to most of my opponents...and even mindbreak trap is a joke in this side of the country)

[danyul]

Ah that makes sense. I had not really taken regional metagames into account. Over here I'm mostly battling through a bunch of Delver and Stoneforge decks so there isn't much application for Swan Song there. It is nice to have the option of hitting the occasional Terminus or Show and Tell, though. But if we take local metagames into account, then yes I would have to agree with you.

...But I'm still gonna hunt down those foil Swan Songs just in case.

[Alexeezay]

Is boarding in Swan Song vs. canadians Rough/Tumble a good idea? :D What do you think?

[Shagstaman]

foil songs are gonna be hot in the next few years. =) looks cool and almost maindeckable...legacy staple for the foreseeable future

[Benjammn]

Really...what made you change your mind, Julian? A month ago we were anti-Envelop/Swan Song and now everyone wants it. Swan Song strikes me as a card that is pretty narrow in comparison to Thoughtseize. If you feel that is what is needed at that metagame than so be it, but only high numbers of Storm, Show and Tell variants, and Miracles are going to make me want Swan Song.

[Eternal]

I'm european, and I hate Swan song and Ruric in main. Give a chump blocker to the opponent in S&T match up like Omniclash or Sneak and show is terribly bad. Envelop is really better, as I have already said. For Ruric it's more a question of "local metagame".

But that's his choice and I respect that.


A month ago we were anti-Envelop/Swan Song and now everyone wants it

I remember asking a question about the U splash for counts few months ago. Many guys were totally against that. :D

[danyul]

We are all bandwagoning netdeckers. I have no shame.

[yaWgnorW]

I'm european, and I hate Swan song and Ruric in main. Give a chump blocker to the opponent in S&T match up like Omniclash or Sneak and show is terribly bad. Envelop is really better, as I have already said. For Ruric it's more a question of "local metagame".

But that's his choice and I respect that.

I remember asking a question about the U splash for counts few months ago. Many guys were totally against that. :D

There was a brief kick of this U splash overall a few months back, mostly for spell pierce / flusterstorm however. I like Swan Song when it comes to heavy storm/show&tell/miracle decks. While Swan Song has the potential to bite you in the butt, as long as your not at a low life count it shouldnt be too bad. We still have Wirewood lifts and DRS shocks. It also is a big thing against Engineered Plague, which from the last tournament in my meta the top 8 alone had somewhere between 6-9 copies. Just remember I think everyone needs to account for their meta. Now I have to try to research my meta a bit more and see if Swan Song will do work there, or If I should just keep things as normal.
Oh, just for the sake of it, I'm in Europe and I haven't truthfully had success with Ruric MD. Sure he's won games vs storm, never as a result of game one. Even on MTGO, never won a game 1. And as someone (sorry, lazy to go back to the last page) has noted, Ruric + 3 NO can be awkward when we would normally have 4 NO for such a thing. I know the % increase to win is there, but in the other MUs I kind of feel its in the way. Contributes to bad hands/Draws. Don't get me wrong, not bashing on Ruric MD, I think its great; just perhaps not for me or where I am.

What I really like is dropping Heritage to 3 as a result of the extra cards going in (Ooze most likely). Online over the last week I've dropped Heritage to 3 as well, but as usual Julian is ahead of the curve. If your trying to fit something in the main, I recommend not cutting mana dorks like many do, but cut 1 (and only 1) Heritage Druid.

[Lemnear]

And as someone (sorry, lazy to go back to the last page) has noted, Ruric + 3 NO can be awkward when we would normally have 4 NO for such a thing. I know the % increase to win is there, but in the other MUs I kind of feel its in the way. Contributes to bad hands/Draws. Don't get me wrong, not bashing on Ruric MD, I think its great; just perhaps not for me or where I am.

It is, that's why I'm still not running Thar MB unless some other peeps locally play storm (and therefore I mentioned it a site back). Where are you playing (curiousity)?

Splashing Blue for SB counters look strange as you still can disrupt your opponent on different levels with Thorn, MBT and discard. Topdecked Counterbalance, Blood Moon, Humility or Deed won't make me consider a colorsplash and playing Swan Song over Envelop tbh.

[yaWgnorW]

It is, that's why I'm still not running Thar MB unless some other peeps locally play storm (and therefore I mentioned it a site back). Where are you playing (curiousity)?

Splashing Blue for SB counters look strange as you still can disrupt your opponent on different levels with Thorn, MBT and discard. Topdecked Counterbalance, Blood Moon, Humility or Deed won't make me consider a colorsplash and playing Swan Song over Envelop tbh.

I'm playing in Nürnberg, I wouldn't be surprised if you were familiar with the meta/players. Honestly, out of the average 50 decks that play in the monthly events over the last few months, Ive only played storm twice. I know there is a small amount of storm running around, but I don't consider the quantity of it relevant enough for a main deck Ruric. Of course some may argue that; but I don't really have a set % that would determine whether or not I run it. And like I said, whether its online or on paper Ruric game 1 has rarely done anything positive for me, and not against storm. Game 2 and 3, yes of course. It may help if storm didn't always take me out turn 1 or 2 though ;)

Edit: On the note of what a worthy % of storm is, I'd say I'd run Ruric main in a larger event.

[Lemnear]

Lost touch for the Nürnberg metagame since I moved away from Regensburg years ago. Used to play there or in Munich during the time the Legacy Events were held in the "Sabelschule"

[Julian23]

Sabelschule, place to be!!!! That place taught me how to play Masticore. Or at least tried to. Then I was busy casting Sterling Grove and retyping every other word in this post.

Once you keep Dyard Arbor and Cradle against Canadian and get away with it, you feel immortal. Until you run into too much of that Cuba Libre LOL

Cheers guys, 2013 was a-to-the-we-SOME! Have a great new year and keep casting green dudes! Over and out for the night, enjoy your lifeeeeeeee! As I just messaged Koby, will type words again soon!!!
:cool::laugh::eek::confused::mad::tongue::smile::rolleyes::wink::eyebrow:
You have included a total of 14 images in your message. The maximum number that you may include is 11. Please correct the problem and then continue again.

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

Sabelschule, place to be!!!! That place taught me how to play Masticore. Or at least tried to. Then I was busy casting Sterling Grove and retyping every other word in this post.

Once you keep Dyard Arbor and Cradle against Canadian and get away with it, you feel immortal. Until you run into too much of that Cuba Libre LOL

Cheers guys, 2013 was a-to-the-we-SOME! Have a great new year and keep casting green dudes! Over and out for the night, enjoy your lifeeeeeeee! As I just messaged Koby, will type words again soon!!!
:cool::laugh::eek::confused::mad::tongue::smile::rolleyes::wink::eyebrow:
You have included a total of 14 images in your message. The maximum number that you may include is 11. Please correct the problem and then continue again.

Many thanks to you, Julian. You gave us a tremendous amount to root for and to respect this year. Thanks for sharing this excellent adventure with us and our green men. Happy new year to you and to all on this thread.

LoR

[Freggle]

Sabelschule, place to be!!!! That place taught me how to play Masticore. Or at least tried to. Then I was busy casting Sterling Grove and retyping every other word in this post.

Once you keep Dyard Arbor and Cradle against Canadian and get away with it, you feel immortal. Until you run into too much of that Cuba Libre LOL

Cheers guys, 2013 was a-to-the-we-SOME! Have a great new year and keep casting green dudes! Over and out for the night, enjoy your lifeeeeeeee! As I just messaged Koby, will type words again soon!!!
:cool::laugh::eek::confused::mad::tongue::smile::rolleyes::wink::eyebrow:
You have included a total of 14 images in your message. The maximum number that you may include is 11. Please correct the problem and then continue again.

Sterling Grove! ...be still my heart. Enchantress? ...Pleasure chating with you on MTGO. ..and keep on being you. -Freggle

[BlackStarDeceiver]

R7: Team America, 2-0


LIAR :D

Game 3 was pretty ugly though, whiffing on land with the ponder was brutal. Nice games and congrats to top

[matty]

Swan song just bought me a turn against lands and I won on the following turn. I countered one of my own spells to get the bird to block marit. I wish I could have seen my opponents face lol

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

[Julian23]

And so it starts again...

http://i.imgur.com/SozrJ2o.jpg

I'm currently back at work but will get back to you once I'm done with all these emails that have been stockpiling over the last 2 weeks...

Also, I like how the last two stories I heared about Swan Song were about people actually countering their own stuff, lol. If you really want to, always remember that you can Swan Song your own Abrupt Decay and get still get full value out of both cards.

[matty]

And so it starts again...

http://i.imgur.com/SozrJ2o.jpg

I'm currently back at work but will get back to you once I'm done with all these emails that have been stockpiling over the last 2 weeks...

Also, I like how the last two stories I heared about Swan Song were about people actually countering their own stuff, lol. If you really want to, always remember that you can Swan Song your own Abrupt Decay and get still get full value out of both cards.

Wow I never thought it would work like that. For some reason I thought the "can't be countered" clause would make any attempt to counter it illegal and then just do something like a take backsies. So swan song resolves in this case?

[Zombie]

Wow I never thought it would work like that. For some reason I thought the "can't be countered" clause would make any attempt to counter it illegal and then just do something like a take backsies. So swan song resolves in this case?

Mhm. The spell does as much as it can - which amounts to putting a token into play under your control.

[danyul]

Anybody looking for a side boarding guide from the BOM Champ can find his very guide right here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26248-DTB-Elves!&p=731679&viewfull=1#post731679), conveniently posted immediately after the primer. There are also links to his two BOM articles from SCG. I hope that helps take some pressure off of your inbox Julian!

[Julian23]

Also, credit where credit is due: the first person to suggest Swan Song to me was actually Lighning Bebbi after we had already discussed Envelope right after the BoM. In the end he came 1 point short of potentially Top8'ing the event as well.

[Zombie]

Swan Song + Discard seems like a package deal against most combo decks.

Plus Thorns :P Hit them from all the angles. Counters, discard, hate-permanents, a fast clock, oops I wins, DRS vs. PiF/EtW... >:)

[Lighning Bebbi]

Also, credit where credit is due: the first person to suggest Swan Song to me was actually Lighning Bebbi after we had already discussed Envelope right after the BoM. In the end he came 1 point short of potentially Top8'ing the event as well.

:)
Graz again, Julian!
Yes, I was 10th in the end. Alexander Beiersdorfer 11th – also with Elves!

Was a really great weekend for me and somehow Elves!

Here are my Matchups:

Saturday, ~60 people Trial:
1) Esper Blade 2:0
2) Goblins 2:0
3) Manaless Dredge 2:0
4) Death and Taxes 2:1
5) I.D.
6) I.D.

1/4 Final Miracle 2-1
1/2 Final Elves 2-1
Final GWrb Punishing Maverick 0-2

So I saved 1 Bye for Monday!

Monday, 119 people Mainevent:
1) Bye
2) Dredge 2:0
3) Elves 2:0
4) Miracle 1:2
5) TES 1:2
6) Turbo Eldrazi 2:0
7) burg 2:0
8) URW Patriot 2:1

As Julian said already I’m a fan of Swan Song, too. I played it in both events.
On Monday we played a quite similar Decklist. The only difference: I don’t play Llanowar Elves. I play the 2nd Birchlore Ranger to fix 4 colors. I also like to "go off" in some matchups with Glimpse for 2-4 cards turn 2 to find Order for the turn 3 kill, or sometimes just lucky turn 2 kill!

Swan Song countered things like:
- Force against Miracle to protect my Order
- Silence against TES, then I trapped him
- Counterbalance against Miracle, but he could Force it
- Entreat the Angel for 2 against Miracle
- It’s also very convincing in the mirror. For example:
He was on the play with first turn Llanowar Elves. (potential 2nd turn kill :P)
I had mulligan on 6: Fetchland, Cradle, Swan Song, Birchlore, Nettle, Deathrite, Glimpse.
I decided to put Fetchland and pass the turn to counter his Glimpse/Order, since I could play all my stuff even next turn without missing a blue mana in his turn again (Birchlore+Nettle+X). He just played some more Elves in his 2nd turn to arrange his Order turn 3.
I fetch Dryad Arbor EoT. Played Nettle, Glimpse, Birchlore into Nettle, into Heritage. GG :D Yes, this was lucky! but with Swan Song I never could have lost this, I think.

[Lans89]

Anybody looking for a side boarding guide from the BOM Champ can find his very guide right here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26248-DTB-Elves!&p=731679&viewfull=1#post731679), conveniently posted immediately after the primer. There are also links to his two BOM articles from SCG. I hope that helps take some pressure off of your inbox Julian!

He has no guide for Blade, and that's probably because the lists can differ a lot =). I side in 2 thoughtseize, 2 needle, 1 NO, 1 Prog and 1 Ooze (siding out 1 Ruric, 2 glimpse, 2 nettle, 2 herritage). But maybe I should also side in Abrupt Decay, because I sometimes loose to a singleton Grafdigger's Cage or some hatebears like Canonist and MM. What more should I side out if I include 3 or 4 Decays? My main is the same as Julian's 61 from BoM, and my sideboard has 2 Thorn instead of Traps ;)! Thanks!

[Julian23]

Just a short reminder because I'm still stuck at work ( :frown: ): When you side into the NO-package, you always take out all but 1 Heritage Druid; especially when you go -2 Glimpse of Nature against white decks. I like 3 Abrupt Decay +1 Thoughtseize but it depends a lot on whether they have Wastelands. Most have and I don't like fetching for Bayou unless I really have to. Same with Abrupt Decay of course but at least you're guranteed a hit on their Jitte with it (TS can and will be countered if they can) and costs them a lot of tempo.

[Shagstaman]

decay vs the "blade" decks has been amazing...obv targets are germ token and jitte...but many times I find its my only out to a v.clique and I am not ashamed to use it on DRS (especially when it's racing time)

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

Anybody looking for a side boarding guide from the BOM Champ can find his very guide right here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26248-DTB-Elves!&p=731679&viewfull=1#post731679), conveniently posted immediately after the primer. There are also links to his two BOM articles from SCG. I hope that helps take some pressure off of your inbox Julian!

Daniel, this continues to be a great addition to the primer; thanks for putting these sideboarding recommendations in such a prominent place. Julian, to my eye, has a great bead on the most common decks that we see. There are some other decks we might consider priming a sideboard strategy. Here are some other decks worth contemplating, even though some are less common than what has already been covered.

43 Lands
Affinity
Belcher
Burn
Canadian Thresh
Deathblade/Stoneblade
Enchantress
Goblins
High Tide
MUD
Nic Fit
Team America
Turbo Eldrazi
Zoo

[Echelon]

Against Affinity, boarding in your Pithing Needles is a pretty nice move. Stops Cranial Plating/Arcbound Ravager/Tezzeret :smile:

You could also board those in against Goblins to stop their Aether Vials & Gempalm Incinerators (if you've seen them play those)

[Zombie]

Pox is ass. Play stuff until they draw wrong, Progenitus, they die. Wow. Such fun. So skill.
First time I ever played against the deck, improvised a boarding plan of something like: -2 Heritage Druid, -1 Nettle -1 Viridian Shaman, -1 Hoof, -1 Ruric, +3 Swan Song (build a board securely), +2 Pithing Needle (Lili, Waste, Mishra), +1 Progenitus. Probably badwrong, but meh.

[Kayradis]

Im back from Holidays.
Alright
Lets resleeve Elves!

[Kayradis]

Someone got quoted yesterday on the SCG Stream *cough* *cough* Julian23 *cough* *cough*

[Lemnear]

Someone got quoted yesterday on the SCG Stream *cough* *cough* Julian23 *cough* *cough*

What? Are you telling me what they called him by his Forum Name?

[yaWgnorW]

What? Are you telling me what they called him by his Forum Name?

LoL I was watching when that happened. Way to get some 'stream advertisement' Julian. haha

[Zombie]

LoL I was watching when that happened. Way to get some 'stream advertisement' Julian. haha

Timestamps please, some people had to zzz D:

[Lemnear]

Timestamps please, some people had to zzz D:

I second this. Can't believe those guys are seriously too lazy and dumb to call the Bazaar of Moxen winner and writer FOR THEIR OWN MOTHERFUCKING WEBSITE by his name.

Gabe, do you have a link/timestamp for that brainfart? :)

[yaWgnorW]

I second this. Can't believe those guys are seriously too lazy and dumb to call the Bazaar of Moxen winner and writer FOR THEIR OWN MOTHERFUCKING WEBSITE by his name.

Gabe, do you have a link/timestamp for that brainfart? :)

I don't think I have a timestamp, I'll start trying to find it; however I am fairly certain they mentioned his full name, not his online handle.

EDIT:
Ah, found it. I believe this is what we are discussing. Their reference comes at 7:22:45 and goes on for about a minute, however it is in regard to what happens at 7:19:20.

http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/492936471

[Lemnear]

I don't think I have a timestamp, I'll start trying to find it; however I am fairly certain they mentioned his full name, not his online handle.

EDIT:
Ah, found it. I believe this is what we are discussing. Their reference comes at 7:22:45 and goes on for about a minute, however it is in regard to what happens at 7:19:20.

http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/492936471

Ok, from you posting earlier today I asumed they used the Forum name. My bad.

[danyul]

I've been reading other threads (blasphemy!?)and it's kinda funny to see everybody talk about the Elves matchup with such trepidation. It warms my grassy heart to see this deck become a real contender in the meta.

One thing I noticed though - people know that Grafdigger's Cage hoses us hard and it's beginning to see more and more play. So expect to see more of those postboard from pretty much any deck. And if you aren't already, you may want to start running maindeck Viridian Shaman.

Just some food for thought.

[Koby]

So when can we go back to Summoner's Pact?

[danyul]

So when can we go back to Summoner's Pact?

This Koby guy. Such a rabble-rouser!

[Koby]

This Koby guy. Such a rabble-rouser!

Technically, it's 1 mana cheaper than GSZ if you're going to win this turn.

[danyul]

It's faster but also less flexible. GSZ grabs us Arbors on the first turn or particular combo pieces if we are setting up to go off on the next turn. It gives us tutoring power without the pressure of that 4 mana looming over our heads, so we can play a longer, slower game if we have to. I think you know this though. Your love of Summoner's Pact has not been forgotten, oh Kobacious one.

[Koby]

I do concede that GSZ->Arbor is something that cannot be matched by Summoner's Pact. I think that getting twice the Nettle Sentinel triggers for Heritage Druid is something GSZ cannot match either.

Just some Lembas for thought.

[Lemnear]

I've been reading other threads (blasphemy!?)and it's kinda funny to see everybody talk about the Elves matchup with such trepidation. It warms my grassy heart to see this deck become a real contender in the meta.

One thing I noticed though - people know that Grafdigger's Cage hoses us hard and it's beginning to see more and more play. So expect to see more of those postboard from pretty much any deck. And if you aren't already, you may want to start running maindeck Viridian Shaman.

Just some food for thought.

First question: Why run solutions to SB card Maindeck? (shaman MB makes only sense if lots of SFM run wild, so atm doing this is ok, but Cage ain't a reason)

Second question: How do you plan to get hands on your lone V.Shaman with Cage out?

Third question: isn't that shit the reason we used to have 3+ Decays?

[danyul]

First question: Why run solutions to SB card Maindeck? (shaman MB makes only sense if lots of SFM run wild, so atm doing this is ok, but Cage ain't a reason)

Second question: How do you plan to get hands on your lone V.Shaman with Cage out?

Third question: isn't that shit the reason we used to have 3+ Decays?

1. You have a good point there.

2. It's more of a supplemental answer to the Decays I assume you would already board in. And it gives you another card to topdeck/Glimpse into. You have another good point there.

3. I have found that the Decays always have plenty of targets, and sometimes I use one on a Delver or Lavamancer or Jitte only to find myself shut out by a Cage later. In this case, the V.Shaman is just another answer.

You make solid points. I didn't really think of those. I have always run the V.Shaman so I guess I was mostly using the threat of Cage to make me feel even smarter for having V.Shaman in the 75.

[jarvisyu]

So when can we go back to Summoner's Pact?

never

[yaWgnorW]

I've been reading other threads (blasphemy!?)and it's kinda funny to see everybody talk about the Elves matchup with such trepidation. It warms my grassy heart to see this deck become a real contender in the meta.

One thing I noticed though - people know that Grafdigger's Cage hoses us hard and it's beginning to see more and more play. So expect to see more of those postboard from pretty much any deck. And if you aren't already, you may want to start running maindeck Viridian Shaman.

Just some food for thought.

Gdigger Cage is actually the first hate I encountered on a regular basis. In addition to Viridan Shaman, the Abrupt Decays helped with this, although Gdigger Cage is one hell of a pain. Obviously if you don't find the VShaman early enough the cage will stop the GSZ - Vshaman plan. I hate having to use Abrupt Decay on a 1cc card that isn't killing my Elves or preventing me from playing my Elves.


I do concede that GSZ->Arbor is something that cannot be matched by Summoner's Pact. I think that getting twice the Nettle Sentinel triggers for Heritage Druid is something GSZ cannot match either.

Just some Lembas for thought.

Well, I'll be the first to sleeve up Pact if it becomes a thing again in Elves.


1. You have a good point there.

2. It's more of a supplemental answer to the Decays I assume you would already board in. And it gives you another card to topdeck/Glimpse into. You have another good point there.

3. I have found that the Decays always have plenty of targets, and sometimes I use one on a Delver or Lavamancer or Jitte only to find myself shut out by a Cage later. In this case, the V.Shaman is just another answer.

You make solid points. I didn't really think of those. I have always run the V.Shaman so I guess I was mostly using the threat of Cage to make me feel even smarter for having V.Shaman in the 75.

I have main deck shaman for main deck issues; to include but not limited too Jitte, Aether Vial, Chalice, Painter/Grindstone...anyone could throw out more but the first 3 are truly relevant. I can't tell you how many games main deck Vshaman has probably won me based on hitting Jitte. Even against Vial it helps if you keep a slower hand (I know many decks that run Vial we are favored, but the point is there). White Tempo and Blade control decks are a thing in my meta so this card isn't leaving my main deck. If your expecting heavy combo in your meta, as long as there isn't a ton of Painter you could probably pass up the Shaman, but blind meta or large meta for that matter I see no issue in running it main.

[LeoCop 90]

Well, maindeck viridian shaman does little against Grafdigger's Cage, unless we hope to consistently draw it naturally.

In fact, when Cage is on the battlefield, our only hopes are glimpse of nature and Symbiote/visionary, because our tutors are not effective anymore.
That said, it is not impossible to beat, because considering the fantastic draw engines of elves, the possibility of naturally drawing a behemoth, viridian shaman or decay is quite high.

[yaWgnorW]

Well, maindeck viridian shaman does little against Grafdigger's Cage, unless we hope to consistently draw it naturally.

In fact, when Cage is on the battlefield, our only hopes are glimpse of nature and Symbiote/visionary, because our tutors are not effective anymore.
That said, it is not impossible to beat, because considering the fantastic draw engines of elves, the possibility of naturally drawing a behemoth, viridian shaman or decay is quite high.

If Cage is revealed, whether its the current game or the game after if it contributed to the lose, a good plan is to establish the wirewood visionary chain asap to help find the answer (pending the deck of course), for all the reasons you stated above. Main deck Viridan Shaman and Grafdiggers cage should not be a discussion as Grafdiggers isn't (normally) going to be a main deck thing. Post board, its only another card you can draw, but it should never be thought as a 1 of. If Decaying the Cage becomes the plan then consider your deck to have 4 decays not 3. Sure the Vshaman can be FoW'd (mine have in the past), I just smile and begin a Glimpse chain shortly after.

[matty]

Steel sabotage is pretty cool if we're going to run blue for swan song lol

How often do you guys gsz for dryad arbor on turn 1? I pretty much always do that if I don't have any mana producing elves turn 1. I feel that first turn acceleration is always our best opening game 1, so I don't mind "wasting" a gsz to accomplish that. Is that the consensus around here or am I incorrect at doing this?

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[Echelon]

I quite like having the maindeck Shaman in my current meta. The last event I played in, 3 out of the 5 decks I faced played Jitte/Batterskull and the other 2 ran Aether Vials.

Sure, you can't GSZ for it against the Cage, but I don't see that many people running them (at least in my own meta). Also, while Cage can be extremely annoying at times, it isn't an end-all. It is a reason though why I run a Fierce Empath over the fourth Elvish Visionary - the Empath still lets you fetch your Craterhoof when there's a Cage on the battlefield, effectively increasing the chance of "drawing" your win condition. For those fearing it'll mess up your odds of assembling your Best Friends Team, I must say from experience that running the Empath over the Visionary rarely interferes with assembling it. You'll often GSZ for one of the pieces anyway. So what this does is keep your BFF-team intact whilst providing a little more utility for your deck. Ofcourse, you'll prefer to NO for your Hoof 9 out of 10 times, but every now and again you'll be fine with just hardcasting it.

Might be worth it for some people to run one over their fourth Visionary, if they face enough Grafdigger's Cages. Thoughts, anyone?

[nudon]

Steel sabotage is pretty cool if we're going to run blue for swan song lol

How often do you guys gsz for dryad arbor on turn 1? I pretty much always do that if I don't have any mana producing elves turn 1. I feel that first turn acceleration is always our best opening game 1, so I don't mind "wasting" a gsz to accomplish that. Is that the consensus around here or am I incorrect at doing this?

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Personally, I'm pretty liberal with using gsz as my turn 1 dork as well if I don't have llanowar/DRS. Having that extra mana makes top-decked glimpses/visionaries/quirion rangers so much better. In addition to the aforementioned cage, this play hedges against teeg, mindcensor, leonin arbiter and their respective decks.


Might be worth it for some people to run one over their fourth Visionary, if they face enough Grafdigger's Cages. Thoughts, anyone?

I would never cut the 4th visionary...

[Echelon]

I would never cut the 4th visionary...

A Fierce Empath is a slightly more expensive Elvish Visionary that will draw your kill card every single time and can instantly fetch your second in conjunction with Wirewood Symbiote when the first gets countered/Stiffled :wink:

[nudon]

A Fierce Empath is a slightly more expensive Elvish Visionary that will draw your kill card every single time and can instantly fetch your second in conjunction with Wirewood Symbiote when the first gets countered/Stiffled :wink:

If you want another kill card, why not play the 4th NO in your main deck? It doesn't require 11 (3+8) mana and will generally win you the game on the spot instead of having to wait a turn. If your opponent is holding a counter, they can still counter the empath or stifle the trigger. Additionally, you're now more susceptible to arbiter and mindcensor.

Edit: meant arbiter instead of cage.

[Echelon]

Additionally, you're now more susceptible to cage and mindcensor.

You should read what the Cage does again. It only prevents creatures entering the battlefield from your library. Fierce Empath places it in your hand, not on the battlefield - that would be insane. Also, I'd rather have my opponent counter/Stifle the Empath then the Hoof.

You are right about the Arbiter/Mindcensor though :smile:

[nudon]

You should read what the Cage does again. It only prevents creatures entering the battlefield from your library. Fierce Empath places it in your hand, not on the battlefield - that would be insane. Also, I'd rather have my opponent counter/Stifle the Empath then the Hoof.

You are right about the Arbiter/Mindcensor though :smile:

I know what cage does. I mistyped since I had it in my mind from the earlier post. You can play empath if you like but I don't see any reason to go below 4 visionaries. Even if I were to try empath or any other random card, I'd cut other things before cutting any visionaries.

[Kayradis]

I've been running MD Shaman for months now.
I consider it like condoms in the car, never leave home without them.

[Lans89]

I've been running MD Shaman for months now.
I consider it like condoms in the car, never leave home without them.

Same here, and I will not even think off cutting it! In every single tournament it will be of some use preboard. And since for example Deathblade's TNN can rape you pretty fast game 1 with a Jitte, where ranger and symbiote are of no use anymore, why would you take the risk not to play such a good 1-off main? Besides that, there is always some dude playing Chalice -_-!

[Kayradis]

I've done so many shenanigans with Shaman.
Once, an opponent fizzle'd with Belcher, leaving his belcher unactivated.
Shaman'd it!!!
Played another one?
Symbiote, bounced Shaman then Shaman'd the second one.

[Lans89]

I've done so many shenanigans with Shaman.
Once, an opponent fizzle'd with Belcher, leaving his belcher unactivated.
Shaman'd it!!!
Played another one?
Symbiote, bounced Shaman then Shaman'd the second one.

Haha, yeah I did that too @BoM Paris! Somehow I was able to win from Belcher, TinFins and Zombardement (also partly thanks to Shaman) in a row :P!

[LeoCop 90]

Steel sabotage is pretty cool if we're going to run blue for swan song lol

How often do you guys gsz for dryad arbor on turn 1? I pretty much always do that if I don't have any mana producing elves turn 1. I feel that first turn acceleration is always our best opening game 1, so I don't mind "wasting" a gsz to accomplish that. Is that the consensus around here or am I incorrect at doing this?



I always gsz for arbor turn 1 unless :

- i have a llanowar in hand

- i have symbiote or visionary and i think it woud be good to tutor for the other combo piece

- i have an hand capable of producing tons of mana but without natural order/behemoth. In this case i usually hold the zenith to tutor for behemoth if needed.

- i have a one-of in my deck wich is devastating for the deck i'm playing against ( viridian shaman vs affinity, teeg vs combo... )

Well, i realize this are a lot of cases, so i just think zenith must be used cautiously.

[Kayradis]

Zenith is not always mandatory.
Yes, its a recyclabe tutor, but I believe DRS T1 can give you WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more value in any scenario.

[matty]

Zenith is not always mandatory.
Yes, its a recyclabe tutor, but I believe DRS T1 can give you WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more value in any scenario.

I agree, and if I had a Deathrite Shaman in my opening hand I would never Zenith for Arbor turn 1. What I don't like doing is leading with a Quirion Ranger or Symbiote. I think Quirion Ranger is a much stronger turn 2 play if you Zenith for Arbor on turn 1 and have some other elves to deploy.

[Kayradis]

+1
That's a statement I can get behind.
GSZ for Arbor on T1 followed by Quirion T2 is something I cant get enough.

[nudon]

I always gsz for arbor turn 1 unless :

- i have a llanowar in hand

- i have symbiote or visionary and i think it woud be good to tutor for the other combo piece

- i have an hand capable of producing tons of mana but without natural order/behemoth. In this case i usually hold the zenith to tutor for behemoth if needed.

- i have a one-of in my deck wich is devastating for the deck i'm playing against ( viridian shaman vs affinity, teeg vs combo... )

Well, i realize this are a lot of cases, so i just think zenith must be used cautiously.

Keeping in mind the OP was posed for game 1s:
1. I believe the assumption was that neither llanowar nor DRS are in your opening hand.
2. Usually a great idea but without heritage druid + cradle, this can only be assembled as early as turn 3. This gives your opponent time to find disruption.
4. Good idea like #2 but requires 3 turns without heritage druid/birchlore + cradle. At that point, it's probably too late.

[matty]

^Yes, I was referring to pre sideboard games. I'm probably only going to hold a Zenith for a silver bullet post board when I have the right ones loaded in there.

Turn 1 thoughtseize post board, though, is not something I'm against. Especially against storm:
T1 thoughtseize
T2 mana dude with swan song mana up
T3 NO for ruric
In an ideal world of course.


Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

[LeoCop 90]

Keeping in mind the OP was posed for game 1s:
1. I believe the assumption was that neither llanowar nor DRS are in your opening hand.
2. Usually a great idea but without heritage druid + cradle, this can only be assembled as early as turn 3. This gives your opponent time to find disruption.
4. Good idea like #2 but requires 3 turns without heritage druid/birchlore + cradle. At that point, it's probably too late.

1- yes, i meant llanowar or deathrite

2 and 4 : well , sometimes i think we are just forced to play a slower game. When we have those hands full of heritages, symbiotes, nettle sentinels, quirion rangers and elvish visionaries, if we hold a zenith i think it is wrong to go for turn 1 arbor because after all we are accelerating into nothing, just hoping to topdeck something good. I believe it is just better to hold that zenith to find what we need even if we might be too slow, rather than dropping our entire hand as soon as possible and then pray to topdeck.

[matty]

But if you zenith for arbor in that case on turn 1 you can go quirion ranger tap arbor return a forest, untap the arbor and then play symbiote and visionary and start drawing an extra card every turn.

EDIT: and then also have enough mana and creatures the next turn to Natural order for hoof and win if you happen to draw it.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

[nudon]

1- yes, i meant llanowar or deathrite

2 and 4 : well , sometimes i think we are just forced to play a slower game. When we have those hands full of heritages, symbiotes, nettle sentinels, quirion rangers and elvish visionaries, if we hold a zenith i think it is wrong to go for turn 1 arbor because after all we are accelerating into nothing, just hoping to topdeck something good. I believe it is just better to hold that zenith to find what we need even if we might be too slow, rather than dropping our entire hand as soon as possible and then pray to topdeck.

Hands without glimpse/NO/visionary+symbiote/multiple gsz's/hoof fall under your 3rd point, which I didn't disagree with. However, my personal opinion is that if you have business in your opener, the turn 1 acceleration is critical. It allows for some gross turn 2s if your opponent can't disrupt you. I even like accelerating with visionary hands since you will have seen 2-3 (play/draw) cards following a visionary on your turn 2. This gives several chances to draw into gsz/wirewood symbiote/cradle/etc. Though secondary, accelerating t1 also doesn't give your opponent information about your relatively weak hand.

[matty]

Has anyone tested leyline of sanctity in the sideboard? Wouldn't that shut storm down pretty hard? Wouldn't it even be good against true name nemesis or doesn't it work like that?

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[Lemnear]

Has anyone tested leyline of sanctity in the sideboard? Wouldn't that shut storm down pretty hard? Wouldn't it even be good against true name nemesis or doesn't it work like that?

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It does not shut down storm. You can hope that they don't expect it game 2 and don't overrun you with turn 1 goblins, but for game 3 the is Chain of Vapor

[matty]

It does not shut down storm. You can hope that they don't expect it game 2 and don't overrun you with turn 1 goblins, but for game 3 the is Chain of Vapor

Ah OK. You make good points.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

[Julian23]

Don't call me an arrogant elitist please, but this is not Salvation. We expect people to know basic rules and over the last time, we've had a lot of people come in to this thread, which is a very good thing. But as Lemnear has said before, we can't go over very basic aspects of the game, which includes rules. LoS does not work against TNN. On top of that, TNN isn't even one of our major concerns and even if it DID, you would be ill-advised to bring it in against any deck running TNN.

LoS is interesting on a tactical level as it stalls out quite a bit IF you get it. In a deck that definitely has sometimes issues with mulligans because of initial mana sources, I would definitely not want to play it as it leads to very awkward hands. On a strategical level, it's rather bad though. Both ANT and TES already bring in Bouncespells to at least have a shot at handling Ruric Thar (and Thorns, if you have them) so it doesn't really add a new layer to the deck. It can be ok in combination with reactive cards like Mindbreak Trap and Swan Song but here's the dealbraker: opportunity costs dictates that you very likely won't have both Discard, Reactive Cards AND LoS in your sideboard.

Thanks for contributing though, just make sure to always try to go deep with suggestions etc. LoS is for sure not the absolute worst, but without trying to see the whole picture, which includes strategical analysis and accounting for opportunity costs, suggesting cards is kinda pointless as most cards are "good" in a certain way. But I really love your avatar, man! :smile:

[matty]

A
Don't call me an arrogant elitist please, but this is not Salvation. We expect people to know basic rules and over the last time, we've had a lot of people come in to this thread, which is a very good thing. But as Lemnear has said before, we can't go over very basic aspects of the game, which includes rules. LoS does not work against TNN.

LoS is interesting on a tactical level as it stalls out quite a bit IF you get it. In a deck that definitely has sometimes issues with mulligans because of initial mana sources, I would definitely not want to play it as it leads to very awkward hands. On a strategical level, it's rather bad though. Both ANT and TES already bring in Bouncespells to at least have a shot at handling Ruric Thar (and Thorns, if you have them) so it doesn't really add a new layer to the deck. It can be ok in combination with reactive cards like Mindbreak Trap and Swan Song but here's the dealbraker: opportunity costs dictates that you very likely won't have both Discard, Reactive Cards AND LoS in your sideboard.

I apologize. I am still rather new to the game and not to be a kiss ass but your performance in the bazaar of moxen is what led me to choose playing this archetype over any other. I will refrain from posting rules related questions here and just continue to read and learn from you guys. I appreciate that you have put as much information on this thread as you have and that goes for all of the contributors not just Julian.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

[fluuu]

julien which is ur actually deck list? Thank you man and continue doing great things!

[Zombie]

I just remembered that this card exists. Now I want to use it as a troll slot in the board someday. Or maybe main, so I can side it out. They'll never see it coming XD

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=124343&type=card

[Goosen]

Zenith is not always mandatory.
Yes, its a recyclabe tutor, but I believe DRS T1 can give you WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more value in any scenario.

Agree that DRS is in most cases the right play over GSZ for 0. But there are some scenario when GSZ is better.

Here are three scenario that come in mind.

1. You are holding a Glimpse and need the creature spell.
2. Wanna bait a removal so your DRS have a better chance to survivel. This is in match up where it is very important.
3. Your starting hand dont have any fetch or there will not be enough lands in graveyard when you wanna untap it and get more mana.

[Dice_Box]

Other is if your facing blade and you have Quirion Ranger in your hand. You get the mana base down, and you get a defence for Jitte online as fast as you can. But this is a very defence play, while Ranger and Dryad can push out mana fast, playing not to lose is not the same as playing to win. Sometimes that is the most important thought when keeping your opening hand.

[venice]

Hey guys! I won a GPT yesterday, earning myself 2 sweet Byes for Paris! :cool:

Match Ups were:

R1: UWR Delver 1-2 Loss
R2: Esperblade 2-1 Win
R3: Death & Taxes 2-0 Win
R4: Sneak Show 2-0 Win
R5: Punishing Fit 1-1-1 Draw
R6: Death & Taxes 2-1 Win

Top 8: Only me and one other guy want to play for the Byes so we proceed directly to the finals.

Finals: UWr Miracles 2-1 Win

My Decklist this time was:

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Natural Order
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Heritage Druid
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Nettle Sentinel
2 Birchlore Ranger
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
2 Crop Rotation
3 Gaea's Cradle
3 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
2 Forest
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Dryad Arbor

SB:
3 Thoughtseize
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Progenitus
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pithing Needle
3 Swan Song
1 Karakas

See you in Paris! :smile:

[yaWgnorW]

Hey guys! I won a GPT yesterday, earning myself 2 sweet Byes for Paris! :cool:

Match Ups were:

R1: UWR Delver 1-2 Loss
R2: Esperblade 2-1 Win
R3: Death & Taxes 2-0 Win
R4: Sneak Show 2-0 Win
R5: Punishing Fit 1-1-1 Draw
R6: Death & Taxes 2-1 Win

Top 8: Only me and one other guy want to play for the Byes so we proceed directly to the finals.

Finals: UWr Miracles 2-1 Win

My Decklist this time was:

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Natural Order
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Heritage Druid
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Nettle Sentinel
2 Birchlore Ranger
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
2 Crop Rotation
3 Gaea's Cradle
3 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
2 Forest
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Dryad Arbor

SB:
3 Thoughtseize
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Progenitus
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pithing Needle
3 Swan Song
1 Karakas

See you in Paris! :smile:

Congrats. Couple difficult MU's for sure. I'd like to ask you about some of the choices, how do you feel 3 Needle worked for you? I've tried it and it felt a little bit to much, so I dropped it to do 2. Also, how are the old Crop Rotations working? It was my favorite interaction in the deck before moving to 4 Cradle.

[venice]

Congrats. Couple difficult MU's for sure. I'd like to ask you about some of the choices, how do you feel 3 Needle worked for you? I've tried it and it felt a little bit to much, so I dropped it to do 2. Also, how are the old Crop Rotations working? It was my favorite interaction in the deck before moving to 4 Cradle.

Thanks man! :smile: I had been playing with only 2 Needles before, but always felt like I wanted more, since it offers so much flexibility against some of our worst MUs. It is the card I want most against Miracles since shutting down Top is so important in this Match Up. But also in other MUs like Sneak&Show, I feel 2 Needle is just too low, to have one available when you really want it. Needle on Sneak Attack is huge! Combined with virtual 3 Karakas that is a rough beating for S&T Decks. And now I even have 3 Swan Song too! (Which by the way I can only recommend to anybody! That card is plain AWESOME!)
I guess if you have the SB space, running 3 Needle is something you won´t regret, trust me. Especially at the moment where UWR Delver and Miracles is running rampant.

About the Crop Rotation: I started to play these again like 5 weeks ago because I wanted sth. to beat - or let´s better say: to NOT just die immediately - against fast GY decks which are played quite often around here. Meanwhile I stopped counting the situations, where Crop Rotation either helped me out of difficult situations or just won me the game on the spot. Be it against Reanimator in response to exhuming Iona, "refueling" Glimpse Chains when I was forced to make a land drop earlier in the turn, denying Rishadan Ports or Wastelands, bouncing random Marit Lage tokens, winning games vs Dredge out of nowhere or bouncing Emrakuls. I really really like them in my list as it is now because it gives me answers to almost any deck I can think of, while being as consistent as ever before.

[yaWgnorW]

Thanks man! :smile: I had been playing with only 2 Needles before, but always felt like I wanted more, since it offers so much flexibility against some of our worst MUs. It is the card I want most against Miracles since shutting down Top is so important in this Match Up. But also in other MUs like Sneak&Show, I feel 2 Needle is just too low, to have one available when you really want it. Needle on Sneak Attack is huge! Combined with virtual 3 Karakas that is a rough beating for S&T Decks. And now I even have 3 Swan Song too! (Which by the way I can only recommend to anybody! That card is plain AWESOME!)
I guess if you have the SB space, running 3 Needle is something you won´t regret, trust me. Especially at the moment where UWR Delver and Miracles is running rampant.

About the Crop Rotation: I started to play these again like 5 weeks ago because I wanted sth. to beat - or let´s better say: to NOT just die immediately - against fast GY decks which are played quite often around here. Meanwhile I stopped counting the situations, where Crop Rotation either helped me out of difficult situations or just won me the game on the spot. Be it against Reanimator in response to exhuming Iona, "refueling" Glimpse Chains when I was forced to make a land drop earlier in the turn, denying Rishadan Ports or Wastelands, bouncing random Marit Lage tokens, winning games vs Dredge out of nowhere or bouncing Emrakuls. I really really like them in my list as it is now because it gives me answers to almost any deck I can think of, while being as consistent as ever before.

Thanks for the response. Yes the Karakas is nice tech (so is Bojuka Bog) obviously abused by other decks utilizing Crop Rotation as of late. I'm sure its great if your meta has a lot of big legendary things, gyard or not.

[Dice_Box]

So how is everyone finding those Swan Songs? They look so odd in the sides of all your lists but obviously they are having an effect.

[Julian23]

Played in the Legacy Championships at GP Prague earlier today:

R1: Mono Brown Stax (2-0)
R2: UWr Delver (2-0)
R3: Shardless (2-0)
R4: BURG (2-0)
R5: Team America (2-0)

Talk about awesome starts. Then I lost R6 to Grzegorz (whom I defeated in the semis of the Bazaar of Moxen) on ANT and also the last round to a nice guy from Vienna with a not so nice deck in the form of UWr. UWr can be actually pretty easy at times but the problem comes with with keeping medicore hands which you will usually not mulligan. Right now I feel that in order to win this matchup, you might really have to.

Anyways, I still Top8'ed (88 players) but there were no playoffs which would have been awesome! Still, had an absolutely awesome weekend in Prague! Thanks guys!

[yaWgnorW]

I have a question regarding Swan Song, what MUs are we applying this too outside of combo and Miracles?

[Julian23]

Definitely not Canadian Threshold although I wish we could. With only 1 Tropical Island though, it's just too fragile overall.

I also bring it in in the mirror.

[yaWgnorW]

Definitely not Canadian Threshold although I wish we could. With only 1 Tropical Island though, it's just too fragile overall.

I also bring it in in the mirror.

The mirror is a good MU, thanks. I always forget about the mirror. And why not Canadian Thresh? You mean to tell me you don't want to give them a mini delver? :)

[Zombie]

The mirror is a good MU, thanks. I always forget about the mirror. And why not Canadian Thresh? You mean to tell me you don't want to give them a mini delver? :)

He means he'd rather count on two copies of Bayou to get his hate through than a single Trop. Though I'm so going to try Swan Song vs. Delver anyway. One highlight being giving US a mini-Delver, preferably while blowing up their guy. Swan Song is also far more appropriate Rough protection than Thoughtseize is.

[andrebonotto]

Played in the Legacy Championships at GP Prague earlier today:

(...)
R2: UWr Delver (2-0)
(...)

(...) [I Lost] the last round to a nice guy from Vienna with a not so nice deck in the form of UWr. UWr can be actually pretty easy at times but the problem comes with with keeping medicore hands which you will usually not mulligan. Right now I feel that in order to win this matchup, you might really have to.
(...)


Congrats!

Please, describe how did you manage to '2-0' this R2-UWr-opponent. :smile:

Also, on your evaluation above, which are the hands that you are considering "mediocre" on this MU, so that one needs to mull them away?

[Echelon]

It'll probably involve a combination of holding stuff off with Quirion Ranger + Dryad Arbor/random elf + Wirewood Symbiote, bouncing a Viridian Shaman with a Wirewood Symbiote, a Pithing Needle on Jitte, some discard/Abrupt Decay-action or plopping a Progenitus on the board rather quickly :smile:

[fluuu]

Is this deck still viable in the current meta? So many team america and miracle decks arround with their weird terminus, toxic deluge... How to beat these decks? I cant afford this!

[Benjammn]

Is this deck still viable in the current meta? So many team america and miracle decks arround with their weird terminus, toxic deluge... How to beat these decks? I cant afford this!

The better question is if Elves is viable in your meta. If your local game has a lot of those types of decks then it might be advisable to play something else for the time being. Decks get better and worse over time. Just note that there is something to be said for playing a deck for a long time through thick and thin as that is how true mastery comes.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

[yaWgnorW]

Is this deck still viable in the current meta? So many team america and miracle decks arround with their weird terminus, toxic deluge... How to beat these decks? I cant afford this!


The better question is if Elves is viable in your meta. If your local game has a lot of those types of decks then it might be advisable to play something else for the time being. Decks get better and worse over time. Just note that there is something to be said for playing a deck for a long time through thick and thin as that is how true mastery comes.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

Yeah, as Benjammn said its really all on your meta. I wouldn't play Elves if you see Miracles every other game. Team America is probably the easier of the tempo decks IMO. I'd be more worried about UWR and RUG. It also depends on what your board looks like. I just finished playing in the online daily and faced two miracle decks, beating both. Pithing Needle, Abrupt Decay, and Swan Song were all stars there. I'm not saying the MU isn't difficult with that as a board, but I am saying with the right board configuration the harder MUs can become reasonable.

If you ask me Elves is always viable to some degree, but I think that as it is a combo deck that uses creatures as its engine, it leaves us susceptible to more threats then normal combo decks would face.

[Yanley]

Hi. This will be my first time posting here and there's so much content here regarding elves that I'm just overwhelmed by the capabilities of this deck in Legacy. I'd just like to ask a few questions though I'm not certain if the questions have already been answered in the prior pages...

1.) Is it viable to run 1-sylvan library in the sideboard? Most elves decks have a fourth natural order but I'm still looking for a 4th copy hence I'm thinking of substituting it for a sylvan library since I saw a prior list (Matt Nass?) that had a Sylvan Library in the sideboard.

2.) Is there any good justification for running 1x Worldspine Wurm in the sideboard? I saw Andrew Cuneo run one copy but I think it's meta-dependent since from where I play, SnT decks have dwindled down in numbers...

3.) How come heritage druid gets sided out most of the time? Doesn't heritage druid power out the deck in terms of mana production or does heritage druid suffer post-board when the opponent unleashes a flurry of removal spells to make its ability quite unreliable? (I think I answered my own question lol) :laugh:

and finally....

4.) I've been running 1x Terastodon and it's been doing a lot of work lately. I've used Terastodon to slow down certain decks such as MUD and 12-Post (Yes... there are quite a number of rogue decks in our area so I find Terastodon valuable in a lot of situations). How come most, if not all, of the elves decks so far doesn't run a copy? Just wondering...:confused:

[yaWgnorW]

Hi. This will be my first time posting here and there's so much content here regarding elves that I'm just overwhelmed by the capabilities of this deck in Legacy. I'd just like to ask a few questions though I'm not certain if the questions have already been answered in the prior pages...

1.) Is it viable to run 1-sylvan library in the sideboard? Most elves decks have a fourth natural order but I'm still looking for a 4th copy hence I'm thinking of substituting it for a sylvan library since I saw a prior list (Matt Nass?) that had a Sylvan Library in the sideboard.

2.) Is there any good justification for running 1x Worldspine Wurm in the sideboard? I saw Andrew Cuneo run one copy but I think it's meta-dependent since from where I play, SnT decks have dwindled down in numbers...

3.) How come heritage druid gets sided out most of the time? Doesn't heritage druid power out the deck in terms of mana production or does heritage druid suffer post-board when the opponent unleashes a flurry of removal spells to make its ability quite unreliable? (I think I answered my own question lol) :laugh:

and finally....

4.) I've been running 1x Terastodon and it's been doing a lot of work lately. I've used Terastodon to slow down certain decks such as MUD and 12-Post (Yes... there are quite a number of rogue decks in our area so I find Terastodon valuable in a lot of situations). How come most, if not all, of the elves decks so far doesn't run a copy? Just wondering...:confused:

Hi and welcome. Elves is great isn't it ;) Anyway, starting in order; I don't think I'd ever consider Sylvan Library, regardless of whether or not I had the 4th NO or not. What to substitute the 4th NO with is hard to say, you really could go any direction with it however if your looking to find something that actually helps simulate the effect it becomes more difficult. I can't say I have a good suggestion, maybe someone else can help here.

Worldspine Wurm is good in at least 1 primary situation I can think of, a meta full of SnT. I tested it and any time it came down vs SnT I'd win; however once the cats out of the bag their plan may not be to Show & Tell in their kill anymore. I'm on this kick lately on trying not to board cards that are only really effective in one MU. Others may state differently, and once again if you know that the meta your playing in is large and/or has lots of SnT, its a good choice. You stated you don't have much of SnT around, and have a lot of rouge decks, so no based on that information I don't think you need it. It is good against non-white decks (StpS) with good removal (Jund/Bug), but then again Progenitus is good against that stuff as well white decks. Cuneo did run it but look at the meta he played in, 250+ people and tons of SnT. In the last SCG on the 12th, Hayden Bedsole also played it, but once again a very large meta.

Terastodon is one of those cards that can be related to Regal Force. If you can cast NO for something, you may as well find Craterhoof because thats the card that wins you the game. In the times we don't have enough attacks on the board to go with Hoof, we have Progenitus. Progenitus can win in 2 turns whereas Terastodon will get chumped. Terastodon's ability is rarely more useful that what Hoof could provide. It could stop a combo or destroy a permanent thats affecting you, but we have other board cards for that which are IMO superior. If your finding this useful in your meta however, thats just fine, but I'd be interested to know what your sideboard is that can't handle what your having Terastodon take out.

Heritage Druid is the big mana maker, but is really the one of the worst 1 drops we have. That is because we need Elves to utilize it, whereas DRS, Llanowar, Fyndhorn, Mystic make mana without it, and Quirion & Wirewood can untap those and make more mana. Turn 1 - 2 it is more likely to do nothing, whereas the others do something. Don't get me wrong the potential is there to go off early with Druid, but the other 1 drops are just more consistent. Also remember that white decks have the potential to bring in Ethersworn Canonist, eliminating your glimpse combo and likely your need for Druid. We have evolved to a NO deck, and the need for druid has dropped slightly. If we were still heavily Glimpse based, we would likely prioritize it more.

[Yanley]

Ok thanks. When I have time, I'll share my decklist. Originally, I ran a blue splash for 2x Swan Song but right now I'm sticking with just a black splash for sideboard options plus Deathrite Shaman. So far, I've been winning a number of small tournaments in our area with the deck. I've won against Zoo (I was surprised to see a turn-1 Wild Nacatl... haven't seen Zoo in years!), Pox (painful matchup jeez), D&T (very favorable matchup), Omnitell (I always cross my fingers in this matchup), BUG Delver, and Shardless BUG to name a few decks. Fortunately, no one really plays Storm so Ruric Thar hasn't been pulling its weight lately in my elves deck.

I'm happy to have invested in the correct legacy deck. I've played merfolk for two years before I decided to make another legacy deck from scratch and I remember starting Magic with the fascination of how Elves generate so much mana to power out large creatures or spells. I actually started competitive Magic by playing the GW-elves deck back in standard when Jund and Faeries were the top decks so the interactions were not that difficult to learn in the first place. :laugh:

I just hate the fact that the price of Gaea's Cradle is absurd. I'm fortunate that a couple of friends have lent me their spare copies of Gaea's cradle but in the long run, I guess the power level of Gaea's Cradle justifies its price right now. :frown:

[yaWgnorW]

Ok thanks. When I have time, I'll share my decklist. Originally, I ran a blue splash for 2x Swan Song but right now I'm sticking with just a black splash for sideboard options plus Deathrite Shaman. So far, I've been winning a number of small tournaments in our area with the deck. I've won against Zoo (I was surprised to see a turn-1 Wild Nacatl... haven't seen Zoo in years!), Pox (painful matchup jeez), D&T (very favorable matchup), Omnitell (I always cross my fingers in this matchup), BUG Delver, and Shardless BUG to name a few decks. Fortunately, no one really plays Storm so Ruric Thar hasn't been pulling its weight lately in my elves deck.

I'm happy to have invested in the correct legacy deck. I've played merfolk for two years before I decided to make another legacy deck from scratch and I remember starting Magic with the fascination of how Elves generate so much mana to power out large creatures or spells. I actually started competitive Magic by playing the GW-elves deck back in standard when Jund and Faeries were the top decks so the interactions were not that difficult to learn in the first place. :laugh:

I just hate the fact that the price of Gaea's Cradle is absurd. I'm fortunate that a couple of friends have lent me their spare copies of Gaea's cradle but in the long run, I guess the power level of Gaea's Cradle justifies its price right now. :frown:

Ya, 18 months ago Cradle was about $60. I do think its awkward that a land that is really only used in 1 deck is so expensive and comparable in price to dual lands. I'm surprised you find the Pox MU painful, I've always felt like Elves had the advantage most of the time; at least if we can play out our hand as quickly as possible so commence the beats anyway.

[venice]

1.) Is it viable to run 1-sylvan library in the sideboard? Most elves decks have a fourth natural order but I'm still looking for a 4th copy hence I'm thinking of substituting it for a sylvan library since I saw a prior list (Matt Nass?) that had a Sylvan Library in the sideboard.


If you are looking for some kind of substitute for that 4th Natural Order, I would go for Ezuri Renegade Leader. Has a similar effect, can be GSZed and has the bonus effect of protecting your Elves.

[Echelon]

If you are looking for some kind of substitute for that 4th Natural Order, I would go for Ezuri Renegade Leader. Has a similar effect, can be GSZed and has the bonus effect of protecting your Elves.

If you have big enough quantities of mana to do so. Which the current NO-build seems to lack from time to time between the Wastelands eating Cradles and the copious amount of counters/spotremoval/sweepers we face.

[Zombie]

Ok thanks. When I have time, I'll share my decklist. Originally, I ran a blue splash for 2x Swan Song but right now I'm sticking with just a black splash for sideboard options plus Deathrite Shaman. So far, I've been winning a number of small tournaments in our area with the deck. I've won against Zoo (I was surprised to see a turn-1 Wild Nacatl... haven't seen Zoo in years!), Pox (painful matchup jeez), D&T (very favorable matchup), Omnitell (I always cross my fingers in this matchup), BUG Delver, and Shardless BUG to name a few decks. Fortunately, no one really plays Storm so Ruric Thar hasn't been pulling its weight lately in my elves deck.

I'm happy to have invested in the correct legacy deck. I've played merfolk for two years before I decided to make another legacy deck from scratch and I remember starting Magic with the fascination of how Elves generate so much mana to power out large creatures or spells. I actually started competitive Magic by playing the GW-elves deck back in standard when Jund and Faeries were the top decks so the interactions were not that difficult to learn in the first place. :laugh:

Started a year earlier than you, picked up Lark-Blink (http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Standard_Reveillark_Combo_deck) as my first real Magic deck. Creature-based combo decks have had me hooked ever since, so I guess I'd end up here too :P

Pox is a pain to play against, but from what experience I have vs. it, it's not actually that bad of a matchup. You just need to learn to navigate around that first chokehold of Smallpox. If you can get more on the field, it becomes a lot easier. I'm boarding in Swan Songs to stop the Smallpox - the win con in this matchup is Progenitus anyway, and their removal kills the bird. Swan Song also helps stop post-Prog Perishes and Toxic Deluges.

[venice]

Pox is a pain to play against, but from what experience I have vs. it, it's not actually that bad of a matchup. You just need to learn to navigate around that first chokehold of Smallpox. If you can get more on the field, it becomes a lot easier. I'm boarding in Swan Songs to stop the Smallpox - the win con in this matchup is Progenitus anyway, and their removal kills the bird. Swan Song also helps stop post-Prog Perishes and Toxic Deluges.

Ruric is also great against Pox, if you have at least one other creature on the board to prevent it from getting edicted. I would even prefer it over Progenitus here.

Also +1 on Swan Song! That´s what I like so much about the card: besides being awesome against our worst MUs, it also improves the more niche MU, which can give you a hard time as well sometimes.

[Yanley]

I did win against pox but facing both The Abyss and Night of Soul's Betrayal is painful :cry:

But discard against pox works wonders, most especially cabal therapy when on the play. :)

Going forward, is swan song SB the way to go now? Months ago, i was able to use Swan Song to hit a critical Ad Nauseum in one match but ever since, I've never been able to use it again... how important is the possible inclusion of Swan Song? How many copies if ever?

[yaWgnorW]

Looking for some feedback on something with Swan Song. The situation is we're playing Miracles. We have a resolved Needle naming Top, with Swan Song in hand. They cast Counter Balance. Do we still attempt to use Swan Song here, or hold it for Terminus / FoW?

[Atikin]

Looking for some feedback on something with Swan Song. The situation is we're playing Miracles. We have a resolved Needle naming Top, with Swan Song in hand. They cast Counter Balance. Do we still attempt to use Swan Song here, or hold it for Terminus / FoW?

Probably depends on how the game has been going up leading up to this and what the board state/hand state is. I most likely wouldn't in the majority of situations, with the thought of holding it to counter a future fow/terminus. Even if they turn out to not have those cards in hand and never get them, you will still be able to get a lot of mileage out of the swan song countering other stuff. Whereas if you counter the counterbalance and they DO have the terminus you are screwed.

Basically to wrap it up from my point of view, the worst case scenario in countering the counterbalance (they wipe your board with a later terminus), is a lot worse than the worst case scenario in letting it resolve (they get a lucky flip or use cantrips to counter a spell or two).

[Yanley]

I will not use the Swan Song in that situation simply because we have a plan B for that which is Abrupt Decay. It's also possible to play around counterbalance but that's hoping your opponent doesn't chain one-to-cast spells on top of his library. Swan Song must be reserved for a Terminus more than for a Counterbalance.

[yaWgnorW]

Probably depends on how the game has been going up leading up to this and what the board state/hand state is. I most likely wouldn't in the majority of situations, with the thought of holding it to counter a future fow/terminus. Even if they turn out to not have those cards in hand and never get them, you will still be able to get a lot of mileage out of the swan song countering other stuff. Whereas if you counter the counterbalance and they DO have the terminus you are screwed.

Basically to wrap it up from my point of view, the worst case scenario in countering the counterbalance (they wipe your board with a later terminus), is a lot worse than the worst case scenario in letting it resolve (they get a lucky flip or use cantrips to counter a spell or two).


I will not use the Swan Song in that situation simply because we have a plan B for that which is Abrupt Decay. It's also possible to play around counterbalance but that's hoping your opponent doesn't chain one-to-cast spells on top of his library. Swan Song must be reserved for a Terminus more than for a Counterbalance.

Thanks guys. Ya, I had each thought mentioned here. TBH having Abrupt Decay in the MU as well is something I'd hope to find to deal with it. For the most part I feel Counter Balance is manageable without Top; however while chaining 1cc spells is unlikely for them continuously, it is possible for them to brainstorm 'lock' our elves for 2 turns or so (also unlikely). I just wanted to make sure I wasn't neglecting to think of something in that scenario. Shows how much I play blue ;)

[test1985]

Hi all! Can you please take a look at this Elves Deck (http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=6312&d=236320).

It's been a while since i last used elves. Can anyone please explain his sideboard? Also, what do you take out for the cards that are getting in? Thanks!

Lastly, can someone help me sideboarding against the ff: If it's not too much, perhaps maybe just a quick tip on what my game plan would be during g1 and g2. What to side out and what to side in?
1. Shardless Bug
2. RUG
3. Patriot Delver/TNN
4. TNN Stoneblade
5. Miracles
6. Sneak Show
7. Ant/TES
8. Elves (Mirror)

Thank you very very very much!

[Lemnear]

Hi all! Can you please take a look at this Elves Deck (http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=6312&d=236320).

It's been a while since i last used elves. Can anyone please explain his sideboard? Also, what do you take out for the cards that are getting in? Thanks!

Lastly, can someone help me sideboarding against the ff: If it's not too much, perhaps maybe just a quick tip on what my game plan would be during g1 and g2. What to side out and what to side in?
1. Shardless Bug
2. RUG
3. Patriot Delver/TNN
4. TNN Stoneblade
5. Miracles
6. Sneak Show
7. Ant/TES
8. Elves (Mirror)

Thank you very very very much!

You may look at the primer and Julian's BoM 8 Report (splitted in 2 parts on StarCityGames) to find all your questions answered. Please step back from asking him via PM in that regards as his Message folder is perma-flooded with people asking him about boarding since he won BoM. Thanks

[Zombie]

Hi all! Can you please take a look at this Elves Deck (http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=6312&d=236320).

It's been a while since i last used elves. Can anyone please explain his sideboard? Also, what do you take out for the cards that are getting in? Thanks!


His build is pretty standard - Ruric main to battle combo/spell heavy decks, extra mana dorks and second Hoof for consistency, eschewing the usual silver bullets (forgoing Viridian Shaman nowadays is suicide IMO).

Sideboard is rather standard as well.

Discard: vs. combo, vs. blue decks where NO is the main plan.
NO+Prog: In some matchups NO is the main plan because the opponent just loses horribly to Ruric or Progenitus. Fourth NO gives speed and consistency to that. Is in the board because it can often be clunky in many matchups.
Abrupt Decay: Catchall solution to nasty things. Kills Delvers, Counterbalances, Energy Fields, Aven Mindcensors, Vials...
KGrip: I can only imagine this is here for Miracles and Show and Tell. Hits Leyline of "Yay let's turn mulligans into lottery" and kills Divining Top.
Shaman: Artifact destruction, better maindecked.
Ooze: Faster-than-DRS graveyard hate, and a total boss in many fair matchups esp. vs. tempo.

I can't give out detailed guides atm, but the general patterns of side-outs are:
1. Shave numbers here and there. Lots of -1 this -1 that to make room without hurting versatility.
2. Cut Heritages and Nettles down to 1-2 copies each. The Nettle-Heritage engine requires a lot of resources to actually work, which just isn't realistic in many matchups. The decks that force this usually dislike Symbiote-Visionary and fold to NO-Pro.
3. Cut the Best Friends Team. The Symbiote-Visionary engine kicks ass, but it's slow. Combo decks usually are not slow, and cards pretty much need to beat for 2+ or have otherwise great immediate impact. -3, -3 they go, one copy of each left in for those oddball grindy games.

[Zombie]

You may look at the primer and Julian's BoM 8 Report (splitted in 2 parts on StarCityGames) to find all your questions answered. Please step back from asking him via PM in that regards as his Message folder is perma-flooded with people asking him about boarding since he won BoM. Thanks

Maybe we should change the thread title to "[DTB] Elves! Julian Knab's sideboarding guide on Page 1" to ease the pressure?

[Julian23]

Luckily, Daniel already answered all of your questions. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26248-DTB-Elves!) Also regarding the sideboard, asking for an "explanation" is a kinda dull request, you see. Especially since it's pretty much a super genereic sideboard. When I clicked the link I was expecting 15-card singleton madness Nassif-style.

[Eternal]

Specifically, what's the reason to play 2 Dryad arbor ? I love them because I fetch them many times but I cannot explain this. Thanks.

[Lemnear]

Luckily, Daniel already answered all of your questions. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26248-DTB-Elves!) Also regarding the sideboard, asking for an "explanation" is a kinda dull request, you see. Especially since it's pretty much a super genereic sideboard. When I clicked the link I was expecting 15-card singleton madness Nassif-style.

I expect the problem lies within the fact that sideboard guides in complete sentences somehow leave people clueless and them rather ask for clear "Matchup A: - card B, + card A" sideboard instructions to print out for tournaments (saw this locally and at the BoM!).

Correct me, if I'm wrong, but after seeing pictures of Julian's PM box and reviewing my own (concerning storm obviously), I have that impression. :/

I'm sure Julian does his best to answer all incomming questions if possible, but I am sometimes inclined to copy&paste some responses ... shame on me :(

[Lemnear]

Specifically, what's the reason to play 2 Dryad arbor ? I love them because I fetch them many times but I cannot explain this. Thanks.

Copy&paste from the primer on page 1:


"Dryad Arbor #2
This card works well with Quirion Ranger, Fetchlands, Crop Rotation and in longer games, or grindy matchups, it is sometimes nice to have access to a second copy. I’m not the biggest fan of playing a second copy in the sideboard, but some players choose to do so. I feel like the minor utility gained from having a second copy in the main is not worth the drawback of eating up one of your precious sideboard slots. But that is up for debate. Some of the top performing Elves players choose to run a 2nd copy in the board. "

[Dice_Box]

I run two main. It's just too good when you have 4 Quirion Rangers in play.

[danyul]

Ooh that description (and likely the entire primer) needs to be updated!

Essentially, the Dryad Arbor counts as 2 mana with a Gaea's Cradle out and 2+(you can hit crazy numbers!) mana with Quirion Ranger/Wirewood Symbiote out.

We play a second copy to ensure that we can always grab one (in case the first dies or you get the first with an early GSZ and are later able to freely fetchland into another) and because having 2 on the board makes for double the pleasure, double the fun. If you can ever afford to leave a fetch up (and in this deck, you often can) you can set up your next turn very nicely by EOT fetching for that 2nd Dryad Arbor. Especially when we have so many Cradles flying off of the top of our decks.

And when Glimpsing, you can use Wirewood Symbiote + Dryad Arbor to bounce and replay another 1cmc elf to "rebuy" a dude+Glimpse draw incase you start to brick mid-combo. The more Symbiotes, the better. And then of course there is the pleasant and sometimes ridiculous interaction between Quirion Ranger + Dryad Arbor (for block/bouncing or making extra mana) or even Wirewood Symbiote + Quirion Ranger + Dryad Arbor, boucing Quirion Ranger to use its ability twice in a single turn!

Playing the second copy simply means we can do all these things more often.

Once you get enough games under your belt, you will begin to see all the ridiculous applications of this simple little land. I'm sure there are plenty more that I simply cannot remember right now.

[Absolutflipz]

It's worth noting that the new "Inspired" mechanic in BotG lines up very well with the abilities of this deck.

Come on sweet, 1-2cc green inspired Elf.

Also, to the current deck: I've started running a Hornet Queen main over 1 Hoof as a great answer to Delver variants as well as matching up 'well' against Emrakul and Griselbrand. Not sure if it's better than 2x Hoof, but I think it's a reasonable option.

[yaWgnorW]

It's worth noting that the new "Inspired" mechanic in BotG lines up very well with the abilities of this deck.

Come on sweet, 1-2cc green inspired Elf.

Also, to the current deck: I've started running a Hornet Queen main over 1 Hoof as a great answer to Delver variants as well as matching up 'well' against Emrakul and Griselbrand. Not sure if it's better than 2x Hoof, but I think it's a reasonable option.

Doesn't this fall into the argument that if you resolve NO or Hoof you just win anyway? I see the point that if we have a low count on our elves and NO goes then Hoof likely does nothing major; but we have Prog boarded for such a case. Don't get me wrong I see the point, I'd just like to know how its working for you.

[HammafistRoob]

Danyul, could I bug you for your list? Mine is a tad dated with only 3 NO main and 19 lands. Was trying to figure out how to squeeze another NO and Arbor without hurting to much of the Glimpse combo consistency.

[Yanley]

In theory, Hornet Queen may be a good card against delver decks but Craterhoof Behemoth does the job better by making you win on the spot in most circumstances. It might be good when facing against SnT since it can profitably win against Emrakul or Griselbrand but I am not certain about this...

[danyul]

Danyul, could I bug you for your list? Mine is a tad dated with only 3 NO main and 19 lands. Was trying to figure out how to squeeze another NO and Arbor without hurting to much of the Glimpse combo consistency.

1 Llanowar Elves
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Nettle Sentinel
1 Birchlore Ranger
3 Heritage Druid
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Priest of Titania
1 Viridian Shaman
2 Craterhoof Behemoth

3 Natural Order
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun’s Zenith

10 Fetchlands
2 Forest
2 Bayou
2 Dryad Arbor
4 Gaea’s Cradle

SB
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Meekstone
2 Pithing Needle
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Natural Order
1 Ruric Thar
1 Progenitus
3 Abrupt Decay

I'm testing the 10th fetchland over a Llanowar Elf. So far things have been working as planned and I have been mulliganning less often. So that seems like a solid change. The lone Priest is in where the Heritage Druid would usually be. Chrandersen suggested that change a while back as a way to shore up the Sneak Attack matchup but I also like it in the Elves mirror and against other combo decks or decks light on removal. The 4th Heritage is an easy cut because it does nothing in multiples and requires a significant board presence to really get going anyway. I'm not in the 4th MD NO camp but if I was I'd probably cut the Priest or first. Or the Viridian Shaman if you don't see that being useful in your meta.

[test1985]

His build is pretty standard - Ruric main to battle combo/spell heavy decks, extra mana dorks and second Hoof for consistency, eschewing the usual silver bullets (forgoing Viridian Shaman nowadays is suicide IMO).

Sideboard is rather standard as well.

Discard: vs. combo, vs. blue decks where NO is the main plan.
NO+Prog: In some matchups NO is the main plan because the opponent just loses horribly to Ruric or Progenitus. Fourth NO gives speed and consistency to that. Is in the board because it can often be clunky in many matchups.
Abrupt Decay: Catchall solution to nasty things. Kills Delvers, Counterbalances, Energy Fields, Aven Mindcensors, Vials...
KGrip: I can only imagine this is here for Miracles and Show and Tell. Hits Leyline of "Yay let's turn mulligans into lottery" and kills Divining Top.
Shaman: Artifact destruction, better maindecked.
Ooze: Faster-than-DRS graveyard hate, and a total boss in many fair matchups esp. vs. tempo.

I can't give out detailed guides atm, but the general patterns of side-outs are:
1. Shave numbers here and there. Lots of -1 this -1 that to make room without hurting versatility.
2. Cut Heritages and Nettles down to 1-2 copies each. The Nettle-Heritage engine requires a lot of resources to actually work, which just isn't realistic in many matchups. The decks that force this usually dislike Symbiote-Visionary and fold to NO-Pro.
3. Cut the Best Friends Team. The Symbiote-Visionary engine kicks ass, but it's slow. Combo decks usually are not slow, and cards pretty much need to beat for 2+ or have otherwise great immediate impact. -3, -3 they go, one copy of each left in for those oddball grindy games.


Thank you very much. I think i got it. Now, i'll have to take more notes. Thanks again! :)

[test1985]

You may look at the primer and Julian's BoM 8 Report (splitted in 2 parts on StarCityGames) to find all your questions answered. Please step back from asking him via PM in that regards as his Message folder is perma-flooded with people asking him about boarding since he won BoM. Thanks

Thank you! I will be sure to do that. I appologize for any inconvenience caused. Thank you very much! :)

[Echelon]

The lone Priest is in where the Heritage Druid would usually be. Chrandersen suggested that change a while back as a way to shore up the Sneak Attack matchup but I also like it in the Elves mirror and against other combo decks or decks light on removal. The 4th Heritage is an easy cut because it does nothing in multiples and requires a significant board presence to really get going anyway. I'm not in the 4th MD NO camp but if I was I'd probably cut the Priest or first. Or the Viridian Shaman if you don't see that being useful in your meta.

Having a Priest live can get pretty silly pretty fast, considering all the untap effects we have.

In one of my old builds it let me hardcast an Emrakul on turn 3, lol. Sure, your hand had to be pretty nuts to be able to do so and you could pretty much only do it when your opponent didn't kill or counter any of your stuff, but still. Even managed to actually do it once during an event, game 2 against an Affinity player. The Emrakul plot also was why I chose to run a Fierce Empath :smile:.

[Kayradis]

I do not know why, but I'm not too keen on the Priest MD. It can get pretty damn stupid, but I'm still stuck on 3 x Birchlore Ranger for more explosiveness when lacking Heritage Druid.
Lately, Elves! been sitty comfortably in its deck box all foiled up except lands since I'm learning D&T
Also.
Fierce Empath? WUTZ?

[Echelon]

In my old build running Emrakul. The biggest trick there that people never saw coming was GSZ -> Fierce Empath -> Emrakul. So you pretty much had 6 potential Emrakuls in your deck :laugh:. And yes, this was in an age where I ran multiple Priests of Titania, Elvish Archdruids and 3 Concordant Crossroads. The most silly thing that deck could do during a Glimpse chain was having a Crossroads in play and returning one Priest/Archdruid to your hand to untap a second and replaying the first Priest/Archdruid, essentially untapping 2 Priests/Archdruids minus 2/3 mana with 1 Wirewood Symbiote :smile:. Good times!

After that I never really could part with the Empath. Just one of my idiosyncrasies :smile:. Nowadays it allows me to GSZ the Empath to get Hoof/Regal Force in hand and use the Empath to make that one last mana (yay, Birchlore/Heritage) I need to cast the darn thing the following turn every once in a while. It already won me a couple of long games.

[matty]

In my old build running Emrakul. The biggest trick there that people never saw coming was GSZ -> Fierce Empath -> Emrakul. So you pretty much had 6 potential Emrakuls in your deck :laugh:. And yes, this was in an age where I ran multiple Priests of Titania, Elvish Archdruids and 3 Concordant Crossroads. The most silly thing that deck could do during a Glimpse chain was having a Crossroads in play and returning one Priest/Archdruid to your hand to untap a second and replaying the first Priest/Archdruid, essentially untapping 2 Priests/Archdruids minus 2/3 mana with 1 Wirewood Symbiote :smile:. Good times!

After that I never really could part with the Empath. Just one of my idiosyncrasies :smile:. Nowadays it allows me to GSZ the Empath to get Hoof/Regal Force in hand and use the Empath to make that one last mana (yay, Birchlore/Heritage) I need to cast the darn thing the following turn every once in a while. It already won me a couple of long games.

I would venture to say that if you're casting GSZ for 3 (4 mana) and then hard casting a Hoof (8 mana, 12 total) you'd would have enough to just GSZ for Hoof in the first place. Just play the fourth Natural Order if you want another tutor.

[danyul]

I understand that running the singleton Priest isn't conventional right now. And it's actually a bit greedy. If anybody wants to adopt my list without giving in to the Greed of the Priest, then they can just swap in a Heritage Druid and call it a day. No problem.

That said, I never intended for my usage of Priest to morph into a defense of Fierce Empath. Dat shit cray.

[Kayradis]

Fuck it.
-1 Priest
+1 Wolf Skull Shaman

[trevaftw]

iirc they said there were no elves in theros block :(

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[Absolutflipz]

Doesn't this fall into the argument that if you resolve NO or Hoof you just win anyway? I see the point that if we have a low count on our elves and NO goes then Hoof likely does nothing major; but we have Prog boarded for such a case. Don't get me wrong I see the point, I'd just like to know how its working for you.

The idea is to still have the option to go for Hoof with your NO if you have enough creatures and the scenario is right for him.

More to your question/point, though -

I find Hornet Queen matches up well against those decks in which Hoof is a harder/less-reliable kill.

Aka Delver variants (grindy, lots of removal, unblockable flier), and Sneak/Show which can just be faster to where you can only fire off an early NO with 1-2 guys remaining at best.

Against these matchups, Hornet Queen effectively ends the game, just not 'literally' the turn it's entered. True-name + equipment is probably the only case where you're not winning the race post-Hornet (tho playing a MD Viridian Shaman is defensible these days I think).

[yaWgnorW]

1 Llanowar Elves
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Nettle Sentinel
1 Birchlore Ranger
3 Heritage Druid
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Priest of Titania
1 Viridian Shaman
2 Craterhoof Behemoth

3 Natural Order
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun’s Zenith

10 Fetchlands
2 Forest
2 Bayou
2 Dryad Arbor
4 Gaea’s Cradle

SB
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Meekstone
2 Pithing Needle
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Natural Order
1 Ruric Thar
1 Progenitus
3 Abrupt Decay

I'm testing the 10th fetchland over a Llanowar Elf. So far things have been working as planned and I have been mulliganning less often. So that seems like a solid change. The lone Priest is in where the Heritage Druid would usually be. Chrandersen suggested that change a while back as a way to shore up the Sneak Attack matchup but I also like it in the Elves mirror and against other combo decks or decks light on removal. The 4th Heritage is an easy cut because it does nothing in multiples and requires a significant board presence to really get going anyway. I'm not in the 4th MD NO camp but if I was I'd probably cut the Priest or first. Or the Viridian Shaman if you don't see that being useful in your meta.

I loved when I ran 10 fetches, however in the last couple months I've dropped to 9. To be honest I don't remember why, but I do want to find a efficient way to run 10 with my current build. I don't run Priest main, but right now I am running Ooze and Shaman main. Ooze is recent due to some meta shifts, but I'm never disappointed seeing it. I ran a total of 3 regular mana dorks before adding Ooze, in which I dropped a Llanowar. If I wasn't on the Swan Song kick, I'd trade my Trop Island for a 10th fetch, and I'd likely be closer to your sideboard as well with the Meekstones. Meekstone had worked wonders for me against TNN + Delver, not to mention Mongoose + Goyf.

[Echelon]

That said, I never intended for my usage of Priest to morph into a defense of Fierce Empath. Dat shit cray.

Neither did I, for that matter. I was just highlighting one of my little quirks, that's all. No defense or arguement intended whatsoever.

[B4L4]

Hello everyone,

I would like some advises on my manabase : ATM i am playing a greedy 18 lands.
This includes : 1 Dryad Arbor, 4 Gaea's Cradle & 13 "real lands" (only 8 of them being fetches).

I am a regular reader of this Elves! thread and i have been through most of the pages and explanations, thus i know this manabase is a bit greedy and light on fetchlands.
I wish for some input (considering my current main + sb, listed below) to find at least 1 card to cut for another land (a fetch i guess).

My "issue" is that I became attached to most of the flex slots in my main, so i have a hard time cutting something for another land (i guess that top candidates are Heritage Druid, Scavenging Ooze, Viridian Shaman and Birchlore Rangers)


1 Llanowar Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Birchlore Rangers
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Quirion Ranger
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze

3 Natural Order
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Glimpse of Nature

2 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Gaea's Cradle

SB: 1 Natural Order
SB: 1 Progenitus
SB: 1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Cabal Therapy
SB: 2 Swan Song
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay

[matty]

Hello everyone,

I would like some advises on my manabase : ATM i am playing a greedy 18 lands.
This includes : 1 Dryad Arbor, 4 Gaea's Cradle & 13 "real lands" (only 8 of them being fetches).

I am a regular reader of this Elves! thread and i have been through most of the pages and explanations, thus i know this manabase is a bit greedy and light on fetchlands.
I wish for some input (considering my current main + sb, listed below) to find at least 1 card to cut for another land (a fetch i guess).

My "issue" is that I became attached to most of the flex slots in my main, so i have a hard time cutting something for another land (i guess that top candidates are Heritage Druid, Scavenging Ooze, Viridian Shaman and Birchlore Rangers)


1 Llanowar Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Birchlore Rangers
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Quirion Ranger
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze

3 Natural Order
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Glimpse of Nature

2 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Gaea's Cradle

SB: 1 Natural Order
SB: 1 Progenitus
SB: 1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Cabal Therapy
SB: 2 Swan Song
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay


Cutting a Heritage Druid and another mana dork seems fine here. That's the direction most are taking from what I've seen. 9 fetches is ok so I would just add 1 more fetch land and another Dryad Arbor.

For anyone interested in running 4 main deck Natural Orders, this is a list I've been having success with at my store, though it is not the most competitive place to play:

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Birchlore Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Quirion Ranger
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Progenitus

3 Glimpse of Nature
4 Natural Order
4 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Gaea's Cradle
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Forest
2 Bayou

Some notes to take into consideration: I'm pretty much entirely on the Natural Order plan here as I've cut Heritage Druid from my list completely and reduced the Glimpse count to 3. Glimpse is a great turn 2 play regardless as it still can net me 3-4 cards without a cradle and I can still go off if I find my Birchlore Ranger. Elvish Spirit Guide I know is not actually an elf, but cutting the Heritage Druids left me with slots that needed to be filled, and filling them with a creature that enables a turn 2 Progenitus fairly easily seemed like a good idea to me. I have 10 fetches to make sure my Deathrite consistently has some food.

[Benjammn]

Cutting a Heritage Druid and another mana dork seems fine here. That's the direction most are taking from what I've seen. 9 fetches is ok so I would just add 1 more fetch land and another Dryad Arbor.

For anyone interested in running 4 main deck Natural Orders, this is a list I've been having success with at my store, though it is not the most competitive place to play:

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Birchlore Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Quirion Ranger
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Progenitus

3 Glimpse of Nature
4 Natural Order
4 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Gaea's Cradle
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Forest
2 Bayou

Some notes to take into consideration: I'm pretty much entirely on the Natural Order plan here as I've cut Heritage Druid from my list completely and reduced the Glimpse count to 3. Glimpse is a great turn 2 play regardless as it still can net me 3-4 cards without a cradle and I can still go off if I find my Birchlore Ranger. Elvish Spirit Guide I know is not actually an elf, but cutting the Heritage Druids left me with slots that needed to be filled, and filling them with a creature that enables a turn 2 Progenitus fairly easily seemed like a good idea to me. I have 10 fetches to make sure my Deathrite consistently has some food.

I don't get how ESG is better at making mana than Heritage Druid, or why you even run Glimpse if you forego Heritage, or why Birchlore would be run with no splash over Heritage. You absolutely need a mana dork T1 for your T2 NO plan to work and any bit of interaction leaves your plan in shambles CA-wise.

I think a fundamental reason the deck works so well currently is how well the deck balances the two separate ways we win (NO and Glimpse). Depending too much on one or the other leaves us exposed to opponents who sideboard aggressively against one particular Elf strategy (pretty much why Elves was Tier 2 for most of its pre-NO iterations since it relied so heavily on resolving Glimpse).

Also, ESG is an elf, she received errata. :P

[matty]

Just in case, I want to make it clear that my list is not intended to be used in large tournaments especially in Europe. My list is tuned for my meta game which is much different. I intended my list to be a starting point for lists with 4 Natural Orders.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

[Echelon]

I don't get how ESG is better at making mana than Heritage Druid, or why you even run Glimpse if you forego Heritage, or why Birchlore would be run with no splash over Heritage. You absolutely need a mana dork T1 for your T2 NO plan to work and any bit of interaction leaves your plan in shambles CA-wise

It isn't necessarily better at making mana then Heritage Druid, he just uses it to increase the number of ways he can cast NO on turn 2. He feels Heritage Druid doesn't help him achieve that, so he cuts them for something that actually does help him achieve his goal. And that's what he's saying - he wanted his deck to rely more heavily on the NO-plan.

If he has an ESG in his hand instead of a Cradle, assuming his first turn was Land -> Dork, he doesn't have to rely on Quirion Ranger to get him to the 4 mana he needs - another land (even Cradle) will do the trick as well. Being able to NO more often on turn 2 is why he plays Progenitus in his main deck (since Craterhoof would be rather useless on turn 2, in most cases).

That being said, I don't think this is a strategy that would work well in a meta where you face a lot of decks running blue, since you have no way of preventing your NO of being countered. Also, again, I'm not starting a defense on this plan - I'm only offering an explanation, nothing more.

[Atikin]

Just in case, I want to make it clear that my list is not intended to be used in large tournaments especially in Europe. My list is tuned for my meta game which is much different. I intended my list to be a starting point for lists with 4 Natural Orders.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

The list is so far out there and is worse than what we have now. It should not be used as a starting point for lists with 4 natural orders.

What should be used as a base discussion for a 4 natural order list is the generally agreed upon list to within a card or two that has been placing competitively for months. The only change that is being discussed is +1 natural order -1 something.

There's no need to make a brand new direct downgrade list for the purpose of discussing a change of ONE card.

[matty]

Man, ok. Sorry for sharing.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

[Lemnear]

The list is so far out there and is worse than what we have now. It should not be used as a starting point for lists with 4 natural orders.

What should be used as a base discussion for a 4 natural order list is the generally agreed upon list to within a card or two that has been placing competitively for months. The only change that is being discussed is +1 natural order -1 something.

There's no need to make a brand new direct downgrade list for the purpose of discussing a change of ONE card.

Is that a problem? Cut the 4th Hertiage for the 4th natural Order or your third NO target in the Main

@Matty:
If you cut all Hertiages, you can cut the Nettles as well. The whole combo-package of Nettle/Heritage/Glimpse could basically be removed once you chop a complete part of those three

[yaWgnorW]

The list is so far out there and is worse than what we have now. It should not be used as a starting point for lists with 4 natural orders.

What should be used as a base discussion for a 4 natural order list is the generally agreed upon list to within a card or two that has been placing competitively for months. The only change that is being discussed is +1 natural order -1 something.

There's no need to make a brand new direct downgrade list for the purpose of discussing a change of ONE card.

Not sure this is that much of a problem. If I'm correct the forum is also here for those to learn whats optimal / suboptimal. While most of us are experienced and would rather not discuss the obvious suboptimal things, for those less experienced or just new in general we wouldn't want to hinder any development into the game. I think trying new things is one of the best ways not only too learn, but to understand how to tell first hand whats going to good, mediocre, or bad.


Is that a problem? Cut the 4th Hertiage for the 4th natural Order or your third NO target in the Main

@Matty:
If you cut all Hertiages, you can cut the Nettles as well. The whole combo-package of Nettle/Heritage/Glimpse could basically be removed once you chop a complete part of those three

@Matty, I agree, if you do cut Heritage, I'd cut the Nettles as well and then just remove your Glimpses. You'd be on your own however in trying something new. While Birchlore allows for those turn 2s, Heritage druid + nettle are the real glimpse mana engines. You take one of the three out and you greatly hinder the power of the other 2. If you go this route I'd look at ways to make your deck more optimal to use the NO plan.

If you just wanted to add a 4th NO to the main, I see no issue an the 4th Heritage getting dropped. I've been playing on 3 Heritage Druids for a couple weeks now ...in favor or a regular mana dork however.

[Havoc]

1 Birchlore Rangers
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Viridian Shaman
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
2 Bayou
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
4 Gaea's Cradle
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard
1 Progenitus
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Harmonic Sliver

This is the 4 NO list I'm running right now. I've only lost 2 rounds in the 3 weeks I've been running it and that playing every Saturday with 15-20 players. If there was more ANT or heavy combo were I live if change the graveyard hate out for thorns but right now a lot of people are on a reanimator and dark depths kick so I need the hate. With this list having the 4th NO has never hindered me. Even against control when it shows up they can't keep burning counters on the NO because I can just hard cast the hoof if they can't kill me quick enough.

[B4L4]

If there was more ANT or heavy combo were I live if change the graveyard hate out for thorns but right now a lot of people are on a reanimator and dark depths kick so I need the hate.
Sounds like a good meta to bring back some copies of crop rotation alongside with karakas & bojuka bog.

[Havoc]

Sounds like a good meta to bring back some copies of crop rotation alongside with karakas & bojuka bog.

I'm not a fan of that version unfortunately. I know it's better than all the graveyard I like not having to worry about keeping mana up. I haven't had a problem even running 2 cages. I know that's horrible ad I'm a bad elves player for it but it's true lol.

[Zombie]

More goldfishing fun. Kill, or pump everything for +24/+24, then kill with 150-something left over? No kill like overdosing on overkill:

http://i.imgur.com/v2Lb1z5l.jpg
TIMMYYY!!

[yaWgnorW]

More goldfishing fun. Kill, or pump everything for +24/+24, then kill with 150-something left over? No kill like overdosing on overkill:

http://i.imgur.com/v2Lb1z5l.jpg
TIMMYYY!!

I actually had a game vs a UWR player where I had more sick elves than non-sick, and I needed to NO twice for the win that turn (Double Hoof). I wish I could remember the numbers behind it.

[common]

The list is so far out there and is worse than what we have now. It should not be used as a starting point for lists with 4 natural orders.

What should be used as a base discussion for a 4 natural order list is the generally agreed upon list to within a card or two that has been placing competitively for months. The only change that is being discussed is +1 natural order -1 something.

There's no need to make a brand new direct downgrade list for the purpose of discussing a change of ONE card.

As an elf lover, this thread sees more of my attention than any other on this site. That being said: this attitude is why I do mostly reading on here and little posting.

As a longtime player but more of a spectator nowadays due to little ones, the constant new release of rules, sets and strategies make this a tenuous game to keep up with at best; if you aren't actively playing you're behind the curve. I eagerly await the limited opportunities I have to play, but God forbid I have a question or a far-out idea that is working for me - if it isn't winning tournaments, it must be wrong!

SMH, the Miracle Control deck list Hanni has in DTB was something he and others worked on and tinkered with years ago. I distinctly remember it being scoffed at, and while I couldn't ever do better than .500 in the few times I played with it before I had to quit, I could tell it had potential. Wonderful to come back a few years later and BOOM! it's kicking ass.

This thread is well written and thoughtful, designed to help Elves beat ass. Keep it that way. Ignoring someone's contribution, while not helpful to them, is okay. Slamming them for it isn't.

Sorry for the off-topic post. Carry on.

[Atikin]

As an elf lover, this thread sees more of my attention than any other on this site. That being said: this attitude is why I do mostly reading on here and little posting.

As a longtime player but more of a spectator nowadays due to little ones, the constant new release of rules, sets and strategies make this a tenuous game to keep up with at best; if you aren't actively playing you're behind the curve. I eagerly await the limited opportunities I have to play, but God forbid I have a question or a far-out idea that is working for me - if it isn't winning tournaments, it must be wrong!

SMH, the Miracle Control deck list Hanni has in DTB was something he and others worked on and tinkered with years ago. I distinctly remember it being scoffed at, and while I couldn't ever do better than .500 in the few times I played with it before I had to quit, I could tell it had potential. Wonderful to come back a few years later and BOOM! it's kicking ass.

This thread is well written and thoughtful, designed to help Elves beat ass. Keep it that way. Ignoring someone's contribution, while not helpful to them, is okay. Slamming them for it isn't.

Sorry for the off-topic post. Carry on.

As you can see I also generally dont post either. However, when a thread has several pages in a row of crappy suggestions and useless discussion it starts to get old. Half the discussion in the pages leading up to that post was us trying to convince new comers to read the primer, discussing the miniscule probability where fierce empath actually does anything, and other things. I decided to release the brunt of my frustration in that post, and unfortunately it was targeted at a single user despite being not being entirely his fault. My apologies to matty.

People need to seriously think and analyze their suggestions before posting. Construct an argument for you case of x vs y and think it through first so we can have some productive discussion. Instead people are simply posting random suggestions without explanations to their choices, and minimal productive discussion for this as a competitive deck is occurring.

[Echelon]

On another note...

I think we may want to get ready to deal with Spirit of the Labyrinth pretty soon. Looking at the current meta, it gives D&T a lot of utility against anything running Brainstorm/Ponder and, more importantly, also stops both our BFF-team and Glimpse of Nature dead in their respective tracks so I can certainly see them running a couple of those.

We have a number of Abrupt Decays in our SB to potentially deal with it, but without library manipulation, will it be enough to deal with a Spirit actually hitting the field? Might it be worth it to dip into white a bit so we can also have a couple of Zealous Persecutions in our SB? It would also be great in the mirror and coincidentally can kill TNN, Grim Lavamancer, Mother of Runes, Goblin Welder and any other annoying x/1 I'm forgetting to mention.

Or we might want to start running the GW sliver/cat wizard again, since the Spirit is an enchantment as well.

Thoughts on this, anyone? (And yes, I know this is purely speculation a.t.m. since that card isn't even out yet)

[Kayradis]

Gut Shot.

[Lemnear]

Gut Shot.

Dread of Night

[Yanley]

I don't think we should be THAT afraid of the new white bear since we win the D&T matchup with an NO-Progenitus plan. Correct me if i'm wrong as well but I'd be more worried about Canonist over the new spirit bear any time.

[Kayradis]

canonist is plain better than the new white 3/1
It will be a fringe SB card.

[Lighning Bebbi]

I don't think we should be THAT afraid of the new white bear since we win the D&T matchup with an NO-Progenitus plan. Correct me if i'm wrong as well but I'd be more worried about Canonist over the new spirit bear any time.

If they don't have Aven Mindcensor or Grafdigger's Cage or something like Wing Shards... you're right.

[Echelon]

Yup. Most elf builds run a Viridian Shaman in the main a.t.m, which allows you to deal with Cannonnists most of the time :smile:

[Arsenal]

Yup. Most elf builds run a Viridian Shaman in the main a.t.m, which allows you to deal with Cannonnists most of the time :smile:

I don't understand, are you implying Viridian Shaman will do something against Spirit of the Labyrinth? Because it won't.

Also, although you still have Natural Order and Green Sun's Zenith to work around Spirit of the Labyrinth, those decks will often times be running Mother of Runes. Turn 1 Mother of Runes, turn 2 Spirit of the Labyrinth is going to be a fairly common opener and that completely shuts off your Glimpse and Symbiote-Visionary draw engines; Abrupt Decay can't even bring you back in that situation due to Mother of Runes.

[TsumiBand]

The issue with easily answering Spirit of the Labyrinth is less a 1-to-1 question as White Weenie strategies come closer to what many players have agreed its most potent incarnation would putatively be - prison aggro.
As with other prison decks it is a race between your Voltron and theirs - but really you do have to take Mother of Runes, Aven Mindcensor and possibly Ethersworn Canonist into consideration. It's probable that Golgari Charm is a stronger answer than Abrupt Decay or Gut Shot. You'll still need to resolve against Canonist, maybe, but it becomes a tad more academic at that point.

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[Arsenal]

Dark Maverick that often brings in Zealous Persecution seems to be rough for Elves too if Spirit of the Labyrinth is out. They're then just one GSZ -> Gaddock Teeg away from completely locking you out.

[Dice_Box]

For some reason, I am really not that worried. After all the tough games I have pulled though with this deck, I have faith we can make it past this intact. Also it makes Swan Song an auto include.

[Zombie]

For some reason, I am really not that worried. After all the tough games I have pulled though with this deck, I have faith we can make it past this intact. Also it makes Swan Song an auto include.

I'd think otherwise, actually. Swan Song is good against a hardcast one, sure. But consider what it does to the meta if it has an impact: It takes a heavy toll on Show and Tell decks, and people will be packing more removal. The Show and Tell decks themselves will probably be dropping Leylines to have more room to deal with the bastard. The decks it is likely to see play in are Vial decks, by and large. And Swan Song does jack against a vialed-in Spirit. If anything, presuming Spirit sees widespread play, I'd react like this:

Main:
Julian's Swan list
- Viridian Shaman
- Tropical Island
+ Qasali Pridemage/Harmonic Sliver
+ Savannah

Sideboard:
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
1 NO
1 Progenitus
2 Pithing Needle

2 Golgari Charm
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Gaddock Teeg

Oldskool, but ought to work.

[Lemnear]

For fucks sake, can't we finally get an elven-type EtB Disenchant creature?!

[Dice_Box]

We can hope right? You could even make it Green and White if you want to. (Not like that would do much...)

[danyul]

I immediately thought of Elvish Hexhunter and Elvish Lyrist but due to Mother of Runes those are not reliable. Also they are a bit slow.

So I hopped on eBay and picked up a couple Virtue's Ruin just in case. I'm not too worried about it though.

[Arsenal]

The only two obvious decks that will try to run her is D&T and Maverick. If you already are crushing those two decks, then perhaps a single card from them cutting off both of your draw engines simultaneously won't matter to you, but I suspect that she'll be far more tricky than many of you Elves players are giving her credit for. A single SoL virtually deading 12 cards in your deck isn't anything to shrug your shoulders at.

[shopshopshop]

Danyul: Do you think Virtue's Ruin is better than Dread of Night? Dread of Night deals with most of the problem creatures in D&T, and costs significantly less, which is a boon against the mana denial strategy. It also sticks around, and makes Stoneforges unable to pick up Jitte counters because of having 0 power, which seems relevant.

[Zombie]

The only two obvious decks that will try to run her is D&T and Maverick. If you already are crushing those two decks, then perhaps a single card from them cutting off both of your draw engines simultaneously won't matter to you, but I suspect that she'll be far more tricky than many of you Elves players are giving her credit for. A single SoL virtually deading 12 cards in your deck isn't anything to shrug your shoulders at.

12? For Storm, yes. For Elves, about 8. GSZ has a bunch of other good targets, though it's admittedly suboptimal.

[yaWgnorW]

I'm not sure Spirit of the Labyrinth will be used in any MU we struggle in. The decks that would use it, as mentioned D&T and some Maverick variants, we are not only favored but they have had access to Ethersworn Canonist. Typically any deck that has access to Canonist we would react by siding out some of the Glimpse engine cards. While Viridian Shaman did help with Canonist, I still believe Canonist is superior overall. The Spirit halts Visionary/Symbiote and Glimpse, but does not halt us from playing out our hand. Canonist does and it stops all the above.

The way the format (most metas) have gone to deal with TNN is through the various forms of -1-1 distribution and/or board wipes. This guy is at risk to be killed by some of that -1-1 distribution. I do think we'll see this Spirit but I don't think its any more of a worry than other stuff. I'm just referring to Elves of course. Elves has adapted to so much this won't be any more difficult than before. I don't think we need to start planning for new board cards just because of this one spirit; unless of course 40% of your metas goes white. And if it does, I think the best suggestion on here is go back to Qasali Pridemage / Viridian Zealot.

[Arsenal]

12? For Storm, yes. For Elves, about 8. GSZ has a bunch of other good targets, though it's admittedly suboptimal.

With Spirit of the Labyrinth in play, 4 Glimpse + 4 Visionary + 4 Symbiote are pretty dead. Visionary and Symbiote can be used with Heritage Druid, attack/block, etc, but let's be honest, being able to get Symbiote+Visionary going is a HUGE part of Elves ability to go.

[Zombie]

I'm not sure Spirit of the Labyrinth will be used in any MU we struggle in. The decks that would use it, as mentioned D&T and some Maverick variants, we are not only favored but they have had access to Ethersworn Canonist. Typically any deck that has access to Canonist we would react by siding out some of the Glimpse engine cards. While Viridian Shaman did help with Canonist, I still believe Canonist is superior overall. The Spirit halts Visionary/Symbiote and Glimpse, but does not halt us from playing out our hand. Canonist does and it stops all the above.

The way the format (most metas) have gone to deal with TNN is through the various forms of -1-1 distribution and/or board wipes. This guy is at risk to be killed by some of that -1-1 distribution. I do think we'll see this Spirit but I don't think its any more of a worry than other stuff. I'm just referring to Elves of course. Elves has adapted to so much this won't be any more difficult than before. I don't think we need to start planning for new board cards just because of this one spirit; unless of course 40% of your metas goes white. And if it does, I think the best suggestion on here is go back to Qasali Pridemage / Viridian Zealot.

There's important differences, though. Most importantly that this maindeckable, which Canonist isn't. We can also slowly dig for outs to Canonist or the NOs that win the match - 2 cards/turn is still way better than 1. Against this, no dice.
The effect is also far more severe on non-Storm/Elves combo decks - Canonist merely forces Omnitell to go off in slow motion, this just shuts it down hard, comboing out, setting up, the whole thing. This shuts down Griselbrand. It shuts down most cantrips, so Storm has a hard time setting up. Tempo with a low-threat hand? Oops, good game loss there. The big thing about it is that it hurts every deck's ability to play smoothly because they're playing blanks and has actual, good effect on fair decks. The second is that it's an enchantment and isn't hit by the standard maindeck hate card which is just functionally the best thing we have.

Hating it after board is pretty easy. But it's the maindeckability of it that is the big issue. We have less NO's, more Glimpses and no Progenitus in G1 too.

[danyul]

Danyul: Do you think Virtue's Ruin is better than Dread of Night? Dread of Night deals with most of the problem creatures in D&T, and costs significantly less, which is a boon against the mana denial strategy. It also sticks around, and makes Stoneforges unable to pick up Jitte counters because of having 0 power, which seems relevant.

I like Virtue because of its cross-application vs Maverick/Junk. Being able to tag Knights, Gaddock Teeg, and Cannonist is nice. Also the occasional Meddling Mage. That said, Virtue's Ruin will likely sit in my "Potential SB Cards" box forever and never get sleeved up unless my meta turns whiter than a Congressional budget meeting.


With Spirit of the Labyrinth in play, 4 Glimpse + 4 Visionary + 4 Symbiote are pretty dead. Visionary and Symbiote can be used with Heritage Druid, attack/block, etc, but let's be honest, being able to get Symbiote+Visionary going is a HUGE part of Elves ability to go.


Symbiote is always live for block/bouncing. Also, it is not an elf and cannot be used with Heritage Druid (minor point, I know). The BFF Team is a huge part of the deck, that's true. But simply running the 4th NO may give us enough game to deal with this new hatebear/hatecat.

Edit - I was talking to some D&T pilots and they are struggling to see what they can cut to even play this new card. We'll just have to wait and see how they adapt. The burden of proof is on them. I'm just gonna keep on Hoofin' it up.

[Arsenal]

Maverick still runs Gaddock Teeg main and typically gets another post-board. That seems to shut off the GSZ and NO plan.

[danyul]

That's true. And that's a card we have had to deal with for some time now. I'm actually more afraid of Teeg than this new thing.

[Zombie]

That's true. And that's a card we have had to deal with for some time now. I'm actually more afraid of Teeg than this new thing.

Yeah, but together they're a pretty nice seal on our ability to do anything broken. Which is kinda bad in a deck predicated on doing broken things.

[danyul]

True. I was gonna type something up about us usually being able to beat a single hatebear, but once they come down in multiples, we are kinda screwed. Hence Virtue's Ruin. But then I had a nightmare about Teeg+Cannonist and forgot what I was doing with my life. But I'm back now!

Oh, also Maverick isn't a huge meta presence at the moment. So I wouldn't devote too much energy to finding crazy SB cards to beat it when it's already a favorable matchup.

[Arsenal]

Oh, also Maverick isn't a huge meta presence at the moment. So I wouldn't devote too much energy to finding crazy SB cards to beat it when it's already a favorable matchup.

Maverick very much was a major meta player pre-TNN, but not so much anymore, I agree. However, it only takes a single card to turn an average deck into a great deck (or vice versa as Maverick pre-TNN and post-TNN has demonstrated). SoL may be what pushes Maverick back into relevance though.

[yaWgnorW]

There's important differences, though. Most importantly that this maindeckable, which Canonist isn't. We can also slowly dig for outs to Canonist or the NO's that win the match - 2 cards/turn is still way better than 1. Against this, no dice.
The effect is also far more severe on non-Storm/Elves combo decks - Canonist merely forces Omnitell to go off in slow motion, this just shuts it down hard, comboing out, setting up, the whole thing. This shuts down Griselbrand. It shuts down most cantrips, so Storm has a hard time setting up. Tempo with a low-threat hand? Oops, good game loss there. The big thing about it is that it hurts every deck's ability to play smoothly because they're playing blanks and has actual, good effect on fair decks. The second is that it's an enchantment and isn't hit by the standard maindeck hate card which is just functionally the best thing we have.

Hating it after board is pretty easy. But it's the maindeckability of it that is the big issue. We have less NO's, more Glimpses and no Progenitus in G1 too.

I couldnt agree more with all that, but I was referring to Elves specifcally. Clearly this card will have significant impact in other MUs outside of Elves. I see the maindeck issues too, and it was a nice point to bring up that it would be a main deck issue; however what does elves have that fixes it main deck regardless? Nothing, unless you bring Qasali to the main board. Its just like playing super fast combo game 1, Miracles game 1, or perhaps anything running Chalice, we got nothing game 1. At least we can work around Spirit slightly, and aren't dead in the water like some other things.

Come on 20 card sideboards! (SIKE)

[Mammutti]

This new card seems to hurt decks that we generally struggle against (storm, grizzlebrand...). Anyway, playing a 4th NO and a Qasali MD seems reasonable. Maybe SoL could make Ezuri, Renegade Leader a bit more playable, adding another way to win the game without drawing cards? After some serious pondering I came to the conclusion that this new card will not affect us very much. Canonist and Teeg both are harder for us, but can still be dealt with quite easily.

We can still Deathrite machinegun if need be, and SoL can't really attack us with that skinny little body.

[yaWgnorW]

This new card seems to hurt decks that we generally struggle against (storm, grizzlebrand...). Anyway, playing a 4th NO and a Qasali MD seems reasonable. Maybe SoL could make Ezuri, Renegade Leader a bit more playable, adding another way to win the game without drawing cards? After some serious pondering I came to the conclusion that this new card will not affect us very much. Canonist and Teeg both are harder for us, but can still be dealt with quite easily.

We can still Deathrite machinegun if need be, and SoL can't really attack us with that skinny little body.

Yeah another good point, DRS gun is often forgotten. I mean, yes the card shuts down one of our most powerful engines (best friends combo) but at least we have NO and GSZ, DRS. We are not without answers.

[kavaki]

Doesnt elves already want to be on the NO plan hardcore vs. DnT as is, anyways?