[Primer] Elves!

[Zombie]

So is Julian Felix Flury our Julian23? 7-0 in Paris with elves...

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No. Julian23 = Julian Knab.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Okay. Just curious, seemed suspect. Anyone know if Julian made day 2? With 2 byes, I would assume that he did.

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[Lemnear]

Okay. Just curious, seemed suspect. Anyone know if Julian made day 2? With 2 byes, I would assume that he did.

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Afaik, he's out with 13 points in round 7 (place 462 after round 7)

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Damn. That bites.

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[Lemnear]

Damn. That bites.

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There are only 3 pals left who can make it to day 2 :/

[Julian23]

6-2-1'ed, heartbreaking. What can I say, Turn1 Seismic Assault >> Elves and I'm out. Also should probably have won that drawn match but opponent didn't want to concede, which was very well within his right.

Lost in the finals of a Trial on Friday, so I only had 1 Bye.

R1: *BYE*
R2: GWb Hatebears w/ Zealous Persecution, 1-1-1 Draw
R3: Esperblade, 2-0 W
R4: Lands with Seismic Assault, 0-2 L
R5: Miracles, 2-0 W (<- I just keep surfing :cool: )
R6: Junk Hexmages, 2-0 W (I had the sickest of reads; will tell later or on stream)
R7: Esperblade, 0-2 L
R8: Death and Taxes, 2-0 W
R9: Shardless BUG, 2-0 W

But guys, honestly - thank you so much for saying "hi" and getting to know you. Also shoutouts to the three guys that had me sign their cards and especially my Greek friend (sorry man, what was your name again?) that wanted me to sign his entire deck. I don't feel I deserve it but it made me feel way more special than I really am.

Too bad I started out 2-1-1. They actually asked me for a feature match later + deck tech but resigned from that once I lost my first match :wink:

Can't win it all they say. Good luck to everyone playing tomorrow, especially all the awesome guys and girls I ran into. Also shoutouts to MTGMadness (https://www.mtgmadness.com/) (and especially David!) for adding me to their team starting at this event!


BIG story time from this GP on my stream (http://twitch.tv/itsJulian) on Wednesday or Thursday. Promise!
Lieutenant of Llanowar, over and out!

[Megadeus]

T1 Seismic Assault? LOL WUT. Was it like triple Mox Diamond into it? If so, that is dirty

[Lemnear]

T1 Seismic Assault? LOL WUT. Was it like triple Mox Diamond into it? If so, that is dirty

3 Land, S.Assault, 2 Moxen, 1 Life from the Loam ... Lol

[Megadeus]

I know how it feels to do something absurd like that. He probably worships the devil and has Satan Demonic Tutor powers to get whatever he wants

[Lemnear]

I know how it feels to do something absurd like that. He probably worships the devil and has Satan Demonic Tutor powers to get whatever he wants

http://assets.dacw.co/itemimages/magic-beta-contractbelow.jpg

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I would get that hand, the only difference is that I would be playing against Sneak&Show, not elves.

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[r3dd09]

Bad beats. Just another reason for you to come out to Eternal Weekend in the US. I'm sure we can get you some power to play with if needed... or you could just play Elves!

[Eternal]

Lol julian. I made 5-3 drop without any bye. And I think I killed your aggro loam "seismic assault" at round 2. Was a fuck*ng nightmare. :laugh:

Lost versus painter, mirror match and storm (0-2 in approximatively 10 min. Hilarious with 7 seven discards post side)

Best play of the day : kill a junk depths hexmage with tabernacle on the board.

We have two french elves players day two. Leo Shulof (finalist of the bom annecy 2013) and Maxime Mangenot.
Good luck to them.

[Zombie]

After a few games against LED/Flayer Dredge on Friday, I feel Julian's SB guide recommends way too few discard spells on the play. 3-4 sounds more proper.

[Eternal]

1 Elves in top 16 at GP Paris :

60 cards

2 Bayou
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
4 Gaea's Cradle
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
20 lands

1 Birchlore Rangers
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Elvish Mystic
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Heritage Druid
3 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Viridian Shaman
4 Wirewood Symbiote
29 creatures

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order
11 other spells

Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Natural Order
2 Pithing Needle
1 Progenitus
3 Swan Song
4 Thoughtseize

Swan song better than any other discard ?

[AlexF13]

But guys, honestly - thank you so much for saying "hi" and getting to know you.

BIG story time from this GP on my stream (http://twitch.tv/itsJulian) on Wednesday or Thursday. Promise!
Lieutenant of Llanowar, over and out!

Was really cool to meet you IRL. Does the story time involve something like a 20/20? I want to hear it again ^^


I did not do well at the GP but had a nice discussion with a friend (who finished 34th though he didn't want to play at first and was there to play for fun). It is about the mirror match, and we talked a bit with Julian about it.
Usually in the mirror people side out some number of visionaries/symbiot because the game is probably not going to be really grindy, the aim is to kill on turn 3.
However, my friend told me he feels the symbiot/visionary combo is really good, because of all the discard (6-7 in general) people bring in in the mirror. Both post-board games we discarded each other's hand from our business spells, and ended up with a bunch of 1/1s, playing from the top of our deck. The first one to topdeck craterhoof/GSZ/NO wins in this situation, and BFF team helps a lot in this regard.
(For the record he naturally topdecked craterhoof twice ^^).

This strategy seemed legit to me, before I lost again to the mirror in the last round: turn two kill without cradle (double glimpse chain) game 1, and turn 3 glimpse chain g2, while I mulliganned to 5. Keeping Symbiot/Visionaries would have done me no good here, so I'm really not sure.

Thoughts?

[TiMeWaLk]

Hello everyone,

I would like to share my thoughts about the deck after GP Paris. I do this for 2 reasons. First, I had an awesome time playing it. Secondly, I want to contribute to this topic, in order to make this deck even better.

Before starting, I would like to thank Julian! We never met, but I played Elves because of your victory at BoM, and more precisely, because you wrote this awesome article about the deck, including a lot of sideboard techniques, etc... which was insanely nice for someone like me, who likes to play competitively, but does not have enough time for testing. Btw, I printed all your SB techs 1 day before the trials and added few extra notes. This turned out to be great when I started to be tired (I would advise everyone to do the same).

I played a GPT on Friday with the following list:

Main deck of Julian at BoM
+ 1 Tropical Island
- 1 Taiga

The sideboard was:
1 Natural Order
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Thoughtseize
1 Null Rod
2 Swan Song
1 Progenitus
3 Decay
1 Ooze
2 Meekstone
1 Needle

I thought that the chance of having Ruric in hand, while needing it, without a deathrite shaman, a birchlore or a GSZ was very small. I cut the two traps because I bet I would not face Belcher, Ooops all spells or TES, but I was sure I would face Nemesis, Tarmogoyfs or Delvers (therefore 2 Meekstone felt very good). However, by cutting the traps, I felt less good about facing Ad nauseam and decided to swap a Needle for a Null Rod (which does a little bit better in the matchup). The swan song replace 1 Cabal and 1 Seize. The main reason for this choice is that discard does not do anything against top decks (and cards hidden with brainstorm)... top deck Natural Order against Elves, top deck Show and Tell, a hidden Terminus etc... I'll come back to this a bit later.

During the GPT, I faced:
Jund 2-0
Affinity 2-0
D&T 2-0
UWR Delver 2-0
Show & Tell 1-2

Few notes:
Against Jund, I won game 1 very easily for my first match IRL with the deck. A turn 3-4 kill via Natural Order. I boarded in exactly as Julian proposed, but I blindly put the third Decay. It turned out to be a very good choice since my opponent had a Cage on turn 1. I would advise to do so... because that's almost the only card which can “kill” us.
The Affinity player kept a slow hand and got killed on my third turn (Natural Order). A turn 2 Null Rod from my side made him concede game 2. For the anecdote, the guy was running Serum powder, and resolved the ability before I could say that I mulligan or not (which actually influenced the keeping of my hand). We asked a Judge, and I should have said if I mulligan or not before. We both did not know though....

D&T was a formality.

UWR Delver died in game one (to a hardcasted Ruric) and did not find his hate in the second game, while I had Meekstone for Delver and Nemesis.

I faced Show & Tell in the final to obtain 2 byes (I had zero and really wanted to avoid the strange deck you can meet during the first rounds...). However, I know the match would be very difficult. Show and tell on his second turn (he won the roll) proved me right. I mulligan to 5 on game 2 to find my hate. Fortunately he does not find a 3rd land very fast. I cabal him and he decide that he should not counter. I name Force of Will, which he had and see a sneak attack and a swan song. I flashback my cabal directly to make him play the song. I am about to kill him in beatdown mode, when he topdeck pyroclasm to survice, but I have my swan song! In the third game, he play Sneak attack fastly with a Force of will for my swan song (if I remember correctly). No byes for me... Still, my opponent and his crew were great german guys from Berlin (it was really nice to meet and play against you, thanks to you, I enjoyed my GP a lot on saturday).

Before the GP, I am very satisfied with the deck for a first training. I like the Meekstone and the Swan songs which acted as I wanted. I am a bit afraid of Grim lavamancer (-1 needle), but decide that I should manage with the decays, deathrite and Ooze. However, the game against Show and Tell made me realize that I value Cabal much more than Thoughseize (against combo) so I decide to play this for the GP:

Elves' songs:

Main deck of Julian at BoM
+ 1 Tropical Island
- 1 Taiga

The sideboard was:
1 Natural Order
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Null Rod
2 Swan Song
1 Progenitus
3 Decay
1 Ooze
2 Meekstone
1 Needle

With this, I face:

MUD 2-1 (1/0)
Dredge 2-1 (2/0)
MUD 2-0 (3/0)
Ad Nauseam 1-2 (3/1)
D&T 2-1 (4/1)
Jund 2-0 (5/1)
URg 0-2 (5/2) (maybe this match is swaped with the previous one)
UGR Delver 1-2 (5/3) drop...

Few notes:

Even though I won my 3 first matches, the byes would have really helped to keep being concentrated... it was insanely tough at the end of the day.

For the first match, I lose the roll and my opponent does a turn 1 trinisphere with grim monolith and ancient tomb. I will never come back. During the second game, I decay a metal worker to slow him down and put in play a progenitus quite fastly. For the third game, he does a turn 1 metal worker, followed by a turn 2 Staff of nim... he draws 4 lands in a row and I top deck Viridan shaman which makes the game with symbiote and Null rod.

Dredge win easily game 1. He does a very big missplay on game 2, when he cabals me, see my hand (containing a swan song) and does not flashback his second cabal to remove it... instead he plays dreadreturn which I counter and win from there. He mulligan to 5 in game 3 and I lock him with deathrite shaman and quirion.

The 2nd MUD in 3 rounds! My opponent does slower departure than his colleague in both games. Nothing special to say about this, except that the matchup seems easier than I thought.

My fourth game is... how to say, the WORST match of my whole GP. And it is not because I played badly. It is because my opponent was the most unsportive person I met in my whole (humble) MTG career of about 15 years... First, the guy does count my cards twice, then call the judge when I take my notes out of my bag, because, according to him there were to many pages (between game 1 and 2). But this it not finished... I do a turn 3 kill with Behemoth. During his turns, he plays 2 probes and a ponder (maybe another cantrip), and says during the beginning of my third turn “I should have found a wasteland for the bayou” or something like this, while it's obvious from his lands and the spells he played that he is on Storm. I decide to answer that playing a wasteland in this kind of deck was very strange... and try to keep calm, not to have my day shadowed by 1 single person. In game 2, the only thing I remember is that my opponent, after fetching, makes me cut, then takes his deck (I thought it was to make a better stack out of the cards) and slightly tilt his deck to see the last card... I am still angry at myself for not calling a judge... I just wanted to keep cool, but I should have done something... I mulliganed to 5 and did not find hate anyway. He kills me on his third turn. Last game, I mulligan to 5 to find my hate (I ship back a hand of 6 with Null rod, but I decide that I can have better). I open a good 5: DRS, Bayou, Cabal, Fetch, Swan Song. I do not remember well but I think the game goes like this: turn 1 DRS from me, he plays probe, duress and remove my cabal. I draw a Heritage, plays it with the mana of the bayou and put a windswept heath into play. My opponent says “and I guess this is the end of your turn”, I did not pay attention (also because I am a bit angry about the whole match) and pass the turn without using the Druid to flashback cabal (I would have said infernal tutor which he had). He remove my song (I think) and kills me. Once he won, he looks at me and say “I am the last GP winner”. At first I do not understand what the guy says and makes him repeat. He shows me his signed gaming mat from GP Brisbane and tells me “I am Justin Robb”. I excuse myself for not knowing him and tell him, joking, that he does not know me either. I wished him good luck... dunno why I still did this. All in all, this match is still a good experience, because I know what to do next time I meet someone like this. I am no GP winner, but I prefer 10 times winning no GP than cheating and misbehaving for winning one.

To compensate, the organizers of the GP gave me a D&T and a Jund, which were piloted by very nice opponents. Nothing special to say about these matches, except that they were easy wins because of the matchups.

Finally, I played against Tempo thresh twice. The first version was a bit special with 2 lavamancer main deck and only tarmogoyf as green cards. He found both of the lavamancers in game 1 and 2, while I could only find 1 decay. My last opponent was having a more “classic” UGr delver version but found 3 force of will and 3 brainstorm in game 1, lost game 2 (nothing special), and found 2 Rough / Tumble and 2 Force in game 3. My sideboard strategy differed a lot from what is proposed by Julian in his article though. On a french website, I read that boarding out Natural Order was the way to go since it runs into Force, Daze, Pierce, Flusterstorm... so I followed this strategy twice. It was also my strategy against UWR Delver in the GPT match. I sidebaorded as follow:

-3 Natural Order
-1 Behemoth
-1 Ruric
-1 Viridian
(-1 Nettle)
+ 3 Decay
+ 2 Meekstone
+ 1 Ooze
(+ 1 Needle)

Thinking back, I think the strategy is not good. While Meekstones are awesome and MUST be countered (if not the opponent can hardly win), the density of threats is not high enough and few Force of Will here and there can ruin the match... I will definitely try to board the Cabal in if I have the opportunity to test more (it looks really good to make the Natural Order go through, to find Ruric and remove the Submerge while locking the game).

Luckily, I avoided to face Miracle and could to see the effect of Swan Song in this matchup. But I am convinced that the card is extremely good against them, as well as against Elves, S&T and Ad Nauseam. I'll probably try to keep playing them.

The deck was a total blast to play, extremely powerful. I am sure I could have done D2 with a bit of training prior to the GP. I'll gladly bring it to other events.

Thanks for reading,

TW.

[Julian23]

:cool: Great end to a fantastic weekend! :cool:

I placed 1st in the 150(?) player Legacy Sideevent on day2; won about 400€ in dual lands! *High Five everybody*

R1: Deathblade, 2-0
R2: Punishing Jund, 2-0
R3: Manaless Dredge, 2-0
R4: UWr Delver, 2-0
R5: UBg ANT, 2-0 (Timo Schünemann)
R6: Dragon Stompy, 2-1

Wanted to draw the 6th round but my opponent was kinda grumpy and told me "No. I'm 100% sure I will win this match." ... *slowclap* :wink:

But guys really, I had the most amazing time ever. On day2 I actually signed the entire Elf deck of another awesome French guy *blushes*. Also lots of people saying they are actually watching my stream a lot and enjoy my writing. Honestly, you guys just rock so hard and really let me know why I love and enjoy this game so much!

Love this community. So much :-)

[Blastoderm]

Dragon stompy actually got to the finals? lol

[Julian23]

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/558751/gpParis.png

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

Very snazzy, Julian. Congrats on the victory.

[Megadeus]

Do you need my address so you know where to send those? ;)

Congrats on the side event win.

[gato con botas]

@julian knab who is your deck list?????

[Shagstaman]

lol @ grumpy dragon stompy guy.

he was 5-0 with DRAGON STOMPY, what is there to be grumpy about.. LOL... too funny, wish I coulda seen that one play out. 100% lol...

[Julian23]

@julian knab who is your deck list?????

This is what I registered to the main event. Due to the abundance of Sneak and Show and very little Storm, I cut the 2nd Mindbreak Trap for another Discard spell which seemed like a very solid decision. For the Big Legacy Sideevent on Sunday, I decided to drop the last Trap as well as 1 Therapy in favor of 1 Null Rod and 1 Choke.

2 Bayou
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
4 Gaea's Cradle
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Windswept Heath
1 Taiga

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
3 Heritage Druid
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Birchlore Rangers
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Viridian Shaman

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order

I feel the maindeck is pretty close what I would dare to call a probably ideal configuration. The change of -1 Nettle Sentinel to go to 60 cards is something I contemplated myself and could probably see myself doing, but right now I'm sticking with my 61.

4 Cabal Therpay (3 in the sideevent; +1 Choke instead)
3 Thoughtseize
1 Mindbreak Trap (1 Null Rod in the Sideevent
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Pithing Needle
1 Progenitus
1 Natural Order


The sideboard felt very solid overall and I also liked the changes I made for the sideevent. If you cut back on general combo hate, just make sure to maintain at least 3-4 copies of Cabal Therapy. Therapy is also a very helpful card in playing around -1/-1 effects; not directly by naming Charm/Persecution but also by trading a creature that would otherwise die to one of those cards for something useful - with the intention to always maintain a strong board that on the other hand only loses a single creature (usually Symbiote) to -1/-1 effects.

Another incredibly interesting tech against that is actually Bounty of the Hunt. Sorry to the cool guy that I am borrowing this idea from as I even asked him for his name to give him credit, as I can't exactly remember it right now (plz chime in). The "allure" of Bounty is being able to Symbiote any Elf to your hand and play it out of nowhere. Right now I have a feeling that it might still not be good enough to maintain an actual sideboard slot - but that's the exact reason I will be testing it on my stream later this week!

Signing out from our apartment in Paris, see you on Wednesday and/or Thursday!

[dte]

Hi everybody, this is a short report of GPT (Thursday 2014-02-14, 5-0) and GP day one (Friday 2014-02-15, 6(4)-3).

Please forgive my mistakes, I translated this report from the one I made in French, and if I'm not good when I write directly in English, it's worst when I translate from French because I often do some kind of «*word-by-word translation*».
Please do not hesitate to tell me if you see some of these, or even things which are not really mistakes but which could have been said in a less awkward way, I would like to improve my English as much as my magic plays:).

Here is my list:

MD 60
4 Deathrite shaman
4 Quirion ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish visionary
4 Green sun zenith
4 Gaea's cradle
4 Glimpse of nature
4 nettle sentinel
4 heritage druid
4 Natural order
3 misty rainforest
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Dryad arbor
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Regal force
1 Birchlore ranger
1 Viridian shaman
1 Fyndhorn elves

SB 15
1 Gaddock Teeg (-1 for the GP)
1 Wilt-Leaf Liege
1 Ruric Thar, the unbowed
1 Progenitus
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
1 Meekstone
1 Pithing Needle
4 Abrupt decay
1 Null Rod (+1 for the GP)

About the list itself*:
If I would change anything on this list, it would be -1 Meekstone +1 Cabal Therapy (and I keep the Teeg, 1 Null Rod is enough).
I never missed the second Behemoth and went to fetch the Regal force often enough in situations were Behemoth was not enough :) . I liked the 4 NO MD most probably because I frequently was able to NO into Regal for value.
I do missed a second arbor sometimes but was more often unpleased to see the lone copy in my hand, so I think I will stick on one MD. Maybe one SB instead of the additional therapy, but I'm not sure).
I have been very pleased by the Liege, I regularly board it in and GSZed it quite often. Never regretted to draw it.
I liked the Rod/Needle and Cabal/thoughtseize splits too.


Trial, 2014-02-14

R1, Denis, a nice German guy with D&T
A nice opponent and a good MU, what else?
G1, Glimpse combo FTW.
+4 Decay +1 Proge +1 Needle +1 Null Rod
-1 Regal -1 Glimpse -1 Visio -1 DRS -1 Nettle -1 Heritage druid -1 Ooze,
G2, I died under spirit of the labirynth + mother + aven + canoniste
G3, progenitus
1-0

R2, Niccolò, Italian with EsperDeathBlade
As nice as the first opponent, and good MU too..
G1, NO into Behemeoth early enough get there.
+1 Rod +1 Progenitus +4 Decay + 1Needle +1 Wilt-Leaf Liege
- 3 Heritage -1 Glimpse -2 Nettle -1 Regal -1 Scavenging Ooze
G2 He seize me and choose Nettle over Glimpse*?? Glimpse FTW.
2-0

R3, Thoal (German) with D&T
R1 remake. Nice guy too, but I will stop repeating it because almost everybody theat I met was indeed a nice guy, with only one exception...
G1, He had a fast board but NO => Regal into Glimpse FTW T4.
Boarding, cf R1
G2 I lose under a bunch of hatebears.
G3, Progenitus T2

Semi, Ante from Croatia with UWR patriot.
G1, He started and fetched batterskull with sfm T2. I'm quite happy but it turns out that on the end of my turn 3, SFM activation => batterskull, T4 jitte, jitte equip batterskull and swing, jitte kills quirion then arbor. Eventually I started a very lucky glimpse, topdecking 2 GSZ in a row (target symbiot to return quirion), ending in NO=> regal (craterhoof behemoth wasn't lethal against his 23 life + 10 defense (2 from SFM, 4+4 from batterskull). Regal gave me everything to continue the Glimpse chain into a lethal craterhoof.
+4 Decay +1 Proge +1 Needle +1 Null Rod
-1 Regal -1 Glimpse -2 Nettle -2 Heritage -1 Ooze,
G2, Visio-symbiot and Decays will make the game, killing jitte and delvers.

Finale, Timo (German) with Punishing Fire Jund
G1, T2 a P. fire paid with grove. I thought «*ouch*!*» and decided to start a glimpse for value which turned out to give me enough elves and a NO for a next turn kill.
I side in progenitus and liege vs viridian and regal.
G2, he mulls to 4.

===> 2 Byes :) (and 10 boosters)


GP main event

Same list -1 Gaddock (mistake!) +1 Rod SB

R1 & R2, byes

R3 Remko, from Netherlands BUG Shardless
Good MU, but the only opponent that I won't qualify as «*nice*».
G1 I lost, can't remember how.
I side in Wilt Leaf Liege and progenitus vs Regal and Viridian
G2 I win with GSZ => Wilt-Leaf and aggro. I had both GSZ and NO for lethal in hand but choose the first option as the fow-proof one, keeping the NO just in case.*
Between G2 and G3 I lost a misty rainforest (I always make 6 piles of ten and/or 5 of 12 to count my cards during shuffling process. So I know that I started the G2 with 60. I was never able to find it and was quite unhappy to have to rebuy one while I had a spare Windswept Heath.
G3, NO=> Progenitus.
3-0

If someone found a misty in a black sleeve, please tell me:)

R4, Philip, Austrian with Miracle
I understood today that he is Einherjer on this forum and that he performed really well. He was very nice during the game too.
I almost didn't write everything neither remember the plays. I will lose 2-0 quite easily.
I just remember a little of the small talk, while after G1 when I say that he's my most feared MU, he answer that I have a chance if I run Julian's list and that he's not my worst MU, there is belcher too. I answered that with belcher we can hope to race empty / have needle/discards get there, and that anyway there is almost no belcher.
My null Rod will make my agony way longer in G2 (he will put two engineered explosives in play. He has boarded in disenchant for Needle). The game have still ended in maybe 20 min.
3-1

Marek from Slovakia with …. Belcher!
G1, Belcher T1, no lands remaining in the library.
He plays with the 4 B. wish, 4 belcher, 3 empty and Street Wraiths. I asked why the wraiths, if it doesn't make mulligan decisions harder and he told me that he has been playing the decks for years, finishing 20th in GP Amsterdam with the same list. He said that they could be helpful to find a second kill too.
I know remember as a prophetic talk the previous round with me saying that there is almost no belcher. Untrue!
G2, needle T1 for me, 12 goblins for him.
And my boasting about racing gobs appears to be wrong to (on his T2 he haded a ESG on the board).
3-2

As a mental note, next tournament I will be talking only about good Mus during games:)

Marco, from Croatia BUG delver
G1 He puts me down to 2 with 2 flipped delvers against my three 1/1 board and empty hand, while he is at 16. Topdeck … NO, behemoth and attack for 16!
G2, Glimpse T2.
4-2

Robert, Austrian with painter.
We play the toss with two six-sided dices, he roll 9. I do 9 too and he makes 3. I'm quite happy but I succeed to have the double one! It turns out to matter, as he opened the G1 with T1 Bloodmoon! I didn't have a basic forest and won't draw one either.
Monstrous SB with everything but Meekstone, Liege and ruric in!
G2, T2 Null rod while he has two artifact lands into play. I will beat him with aggro beatdown.
G3, He started with a grindstone but draw a ratchet bomb just after. He will have to use it on one as an answer to the behemoth CIP trigger, and I will finish easily with beatdown. (I had 2 decay as a back-up and anyway if he succeed to mull me I have progenitus and two cabals to buy three attack phases.
I feel the MU is almost unloosable (4 decay + proge + cabal + needle/rod post-board!) and will be quite happy if Lejay's performance give him as much followers as his Omniclash build.
5-2

Jori from Finland with BUG delver.
G1, I loose the toss, mull to 6 while he starts with verdant catacombs into U Sea into delver. I'm thinking that's a bad omen for the game but a very good one for the match. The first part turns to be true quite quickly when Tombstalker joined the board on his side.
+1 progenitus +4 decay + 1 liege +1 meekstone
-1 regal -1 viridian shaman -3 heritage -1 glimpse -1 quirion ranger
No souvenirs from G2&3. I only remember that I won one with a quick liege and that I decay at least three delvers.
6-2

who, day 2*is possible!

Adriano, Portuguese with Omni show
G1, combo T2 (He made it, not me* :) )
G2 I open a perfect hand: Fetch, cabal + Seize, 3 elves and GSZ. Before my turn he put three Leylines into play! I thought that my discards will be useless but at least he has a pseudo mull to four and he made a mistake (he should have keep at least one to get value from BS*: I understand that putting 2 into play protect him against harmonic/quasali/viridian zealot followed by discard but the third is useless here. Eventually he won turn 3 with only S&T, omni, enter the infinite. And I start missing my gaddock, he would have force him to find one wish for Eledamri's call, which would probably give me enough time to win.
The guy was still very nice.

I'm out for day 2, I finish 253 among 1579.

Thanks for reading me and for future replies concerning my plays/list/English :)

[venice]

Alright then, I will join in and share my GP results as well. :smile:

Since I already had 2 Byes from a GPT, I didn´t play in any grinder on Friday. Day 1 on Saturday started quite well with me going up to 6-1 after round 7. Unfortunately, I lost the following 2 rounds, thus not making it to day 2... sad story.

The MUs I faced:

R1: Bye
R2: Bye
R3: Enchantress 2-0
R4: UWR Delver 0-2
R5: Merfolk 2-0
R6: Esper Stoneblade 2-0
R7: BUG Fit 2-1
R8: OmniShow 0-2
R9: BUG Delver 1-2

The 2nd game vs. Omnishow I kept a hand with Cabal Therapy, Natural Order, Deathrite Shaman, Quirion Ranger, 2 Fetchlands + random card I do not remember. I´m on the play and lead with fetch=> DRS, to set up for a turn 3 NO into Ruric Thar (possible T2 if I draw Cradle). My opponent plays Island and passes. I draw something irrelevant for my turn and play Fetchland and Cabal Therapy, to which my opponent responds with Brainstorm. I assume if he has S&T he will put it on top, so I name FoW to either resolve NO next turn or rip other combopieces out of his hand if needed via flashback therapy this turn. My opponent reveals Ponder, Omniscience and lands (no Ancient Tomb or City of Traitors so he cannot go off next turn). I just fetch, play Quirion and pass. During his turn, he plays fetchland and Ponder, then passes back. EOT I exile his BS (18). I draw another dude for my turn, attack with Ranger (17), make 4 mana, then flashback Therapy for FoW again and he reveals S&T, Omniscience, Gifts Ungiven and the lands I already have seen. So I proceed to NO into Ruric Thar which resolves. Now, on his turn he Show and Tells into Omniscience (11), drops a Jace(!) (5)to bounce Ruric and proceeds to win from there via Gifts Loop...

After the game, I wondered if it had been better to lead directly with Therapy (would have called BS) and wait a turn to drop the Shaman. I thought about that line of play when I opened my hand and decided it would be better to lead with acceleration bc there is no way my opponent could win on turn one. In retrospective it would have been the better line, since my opponent did have 2 S&T alongside the Brainstorm...
I am still not sure about this. I talked to a good friend after the Match and he told me he would have made the same decision. What line of play would you have chosen and why?

[LeoCop 90]

Just to come up with a new idea, what about Edric, Spymaster of Trest as a one of in lists already splashing blue for swan song ?
It would be a nice alternative way to refill your hand when all you have is a bunch of dudes on the battlefield, instead of assembling the best friend team. I know he isn't needed, but i think he wouldn't be worse than an ezuri or a lord. (or maybe i just want to give him a shot since he's banned in 1vs1 commander)

[RoLuP]

R6: Junk Hexmages, 2-0 W (I had the sickest of reads; will tell later or on stream)


I was your opponent! Congratulation for the win (espacially one of them, that was an herculean task)

[Echelon]

Your dudes are 1/1. When you start attacking with them, you run the risk of not having any dudes anymore after 2 turns or so.

And when you have enough dudes for it to be relevant, Ezuri would probably be an insta-win (if you can't get your Hoof).

One of the great things about the BFF-team is that it keeps your fragile little dudes nice and safe and away from the combat zone.

[Julian23]

Just to come up with a new idea, what about Edric, Spymaster of Trest as a one of in lists already splashing blue for swan song ?
It would be a nice alternative way to refill your hand when all you have is a bunch of dudes on the battlefield, instead of assembling the best friend team. I know he isn't needed, but i think he wouldn't be worse than an ezuri or a lord. (or maybe i just want to give him a shot since he's banned in 1vs1 commander)

I had actually given him a shot while I was running Swan Song because he seems awesome on Paper, allowing you to all-in and just bounce whichever Elf he blocks.

For some reason though, he hardly ever really worked for me. One of the reasons was that BFT draws +2 cards each turn all on ther own without having to make attacks and being way more synergistic with the rest of your deck as both cards are very good on their own. Also didn't like the increased manacost.

By the way guys... :wink:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bg15digCcAAJP46.jpg:large

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bg15digCcAAJP46.jpg:large[/IMG]

Your sister is never going to believe that that silly card game has turned you into a celebrity who gives autographs.

[Julian23]

Streaming the Legacy Daily Event with Elves tonight! Join us at [URL]http://twitch.tv/itsjulian[URL]!

Legacy DE + GP Paris storytime :cool:

[D@N]

Im kind of new to this deck and wanted some insight into my board, im running the standard 61 card MD cutting ruric for ooze as locally my meta has more graveyard decks then storm. Basicly what im after is if swan song is still the place to be and if it is then what to cut for a null rod. This is what I have so far,

3 abupt decay
2 pithing needle
3 cabal therapy
2 thoughtseize
1 natural order
1 ruric thar
1 progenitus
2 swan song

any help would be appreciated.

thanx

[Zombie]

Im kind of new to this deck and wanted some insight into my board, im running the standard 61 card MD cutting ruric for ooze as locally my meta has more graveyard decks then storm. Basicly what im after is if swan song is still the place to be and if it is then what to cut for a null rod. This is what I have so far,

3 abupt decay
2 pithing needle
3 cabal therapy
2 thoughtseize
1 natural order
1 ruric thar
1 progenitus
2 swan song

any help would be appreciated.

thanx

If you want to run Ruric, Swan Song and Ooze, I'd run (and do run) this atm:

4 Nettle Sentinel
3 Heritage Druid
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Birchlore Rangers
1 Llanowar Elves

4 Elvish Visionary
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Quirion Ranger

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order
2 Craterhoof Behemoth / 1 Behemoth, 1 Regal Force
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze

4 Gaea's Cradle
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Tropical Island
9 green fetchlands

Sideboard:
3 Swan Song
3 Thoughtseize
1 Progenitus
1 Natural Order
2 Pithing Needle
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Null Rod
1 Cabal Therapy

[D@N]

Really Ive found that cabal having the flashback ability much better then picking one card for the 2 life. Maybe its just my good luck with therapy being able to name cards that could be devastating to us early but thoughtseize just seems under whelming or just cant do enough. Also Ive never had ruric do a whole lot of damage before a sneak/tes player can just bounce him and keep going so Im wondering if hes even worth keeping.

[Dice_Box]

Really Ive found that cabal having the flashback ability much better then picking one card for the 2 life. Maybe its just my good luck with therapy being able to name cards that could be devastating to us early but thoughtseize just seems under whelming or just cant do enough. Also Ive never had ruric do a whole lot of damage before a sneak/tes player can just bounce him and keep going so Im wondering if hes even worth keeping.

Ruric also cuts the wind from the sails of Storm. Yes you can bounce him, but now you have to find that answer. You have to take an additional measure before you can win. That is an important thing to remember.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Also, even if they already have the bounce spell, that's 6 damage. More than likely, though, they won't and it'll deal 12 damage before they simply scoop.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[D@N]

Hmm, it's must just be my bad luck then. Also I tried looking through this topic and the tattoo thread on the mish mash board and am wondering where the pictures of the guy that got deathrite shaman and GSz tattood on his leg.

[dte]

Really Ive found that cabal having the flashback ability much better then picking one card for the 2 life. Maybe its just my good luck with therapy being able to name cards that could be devastating to us early but thoughtseize just seems under whelming or just cant do enough. Also Ive never had ruric do a whole lot of damage before a sneak/tes player can just bounce him and keep going so Im wondering if hes even worth keeping.

To my mind cabal is better than thoughtseize in the combo MU (storm/S&S), but do nothing in other MUs, while thoughtseize could be interesting. I do like a split, and even in combo MU, thoughtseize is a better T1 play while cabal is better T2 or later.

On the Ruric point, he's not so good in the S&S MU, which seems logical: they only need to resolve one spell to win and you do not want to put him off a show (except to give 7 life to your opponent). He could still prevent them to find their combo pieces with cantrips.

On the storm MU, either ANT or TES would have to find the bounce very quickly and will still lose 6-12 life, preventing them from Ad Nauseam (if they succeed to bounce Ruric).

[Mono-Green]

GP Paris was my second tournament playing Elves with four Cradles. I went 3-6 in the main event, and 2-4 during the Sunday tournament (congratulations Julian). I had sleeves with Edgar Allan Poe's "The Raven", which caught the eyes of many people around me (just pointing this out in case people recognize who I am).

I would love nothing more than to blame my losses on the many bad opening hands and even worse draws, but each of my losses had at least one play that would have at least been better, if not won me the game. I've played Elves with just two Cradles since October and I've gotten pretty good at gold-fishing the combo on turn three regularly. My issue seems to come when I have to deal with multiple interactions. One or two removal/counterspells don't tend to stop me on decent draws, but fighting through, what seems like non-stop, continuous hate has been an issue.

Since my awesome wife did the amazing in buying me the last two Cradles I needed to complete the deck, I'm determined to work through my bad play. My question for the group is: how aggressive are you typically in trying to combo off? In what situations do you hold back cards? Do you have any tips for a person that has the combo math and triggers decently figured out?

[LeoCop 90]

R6: Dragon Stompy, 2-1

Wanted to draw the 6th round but my opponent was kinda grumpy and told me "No. I'm 100% sure I will win this match." ... *slowclap*

This guy wrote a short report in the dragon stompy thread :)

Anyway I think i would have want to play too if i reached the finals of a legacy event with dragon stompy. It doesn't happen very often, and in the end elves is a good matchup for them (chalice,trinisphere,blood moon main + mass removal between main and side).
But of course i'm never so arrogant to say that i'm 100% sure to win the match.

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

Hey all:

How do we deal with decks out of the 43 Lands family? I'm playing in a tourney next weekend near a buddy of mine's house and my understanding is that a couple of players there may be hot on Lands. Obviously, I can't ignore the other possibilities, but as I don't have much experience against Lands, I'm needing a little advice.

LoR

[Echelon]

My question for the group is: how aggressive are you typically in trying to combo off? In what situations do you hold back cards? Do you have any tips for a person that has the combo math and triggers decently figured out?

It all depends on the MU and how the match goes.

When facing anything playing blue, try to draw a couple of counters before trying to Glimpse (if your hand still allows for a nice Glimpse chain after getting a couple of dudes countered). Or, when you have a way of assembling your BFF-team and you're not facing Storm-ish decks, try to draw one of their counters with a T2 Glimpse so they might be out of counters by the time you assemble the BFF's. Also, when an opponent playing counters stops thinking about every play you make and starts saying "Sure, go" to every play you make, it's often a sign they're out of ways to interact with you at that specific time, making it safe to Glimpse/NO as well.

When facing anything not playing blue, as soon as they're tapped out it's safe to Glimpse. Also, it's often better to Glimpse on turn 2 rather then wait for turn 3. If they keep some of their mana untapped, try to get a feel as to why they might be doing that. If you feel you can safely Glimpse (i.e. the succes of your Glimpse isn't depending on one specific creature to stay on the battlefield) unless they whipe your entire board, you're probably good to go.

The most important thing about Elves! is either overwhelming your opponent or, more importantly, keeping your opponent convinced you'll go ape on their ass as soon as they make the slightest mistake. The NO-build of Elves! is pretty much a bad beatdown deck that can explode any second. Keeping your opponent convinced that you in fact CAN explode any second often gives you the time to actually do so in longer matches (i.e. finally resolving that NO for the Hoof the turn before your opponent kills you).

[Dice_Box]

Hey all:

How do we deal with decks out of the 43 Lands family? I'm playing in a tourney next weekend near a buddy of mine's house and my understanding is that a couple of players there may be hot on Lands. Obviously, I can't ignore the other possibilities, but as I don't have much experience against Lands, I'm needing a little advice.

LoR
I have two lands decks local, they are not great fun, but they tend to be slower than me by a long way. Grave hate is what you need followed by Realm Razer if you really fear the match.

[LeoCop 90]

Won a 40 people local event today, got a tropical island and a from the vault jace.
I only lost to jund because he played toxic deluge both in game 2 and 3, which also killed my progenitus. Now i am a bit scared to go all in on the progenitus plan against jund and bug, because deluge and perish can always be waiting. I would feel more confident with a worldspine wurm in side, but i already play progenitus and ruric there so slots are tight... and for my meta ruric main deck is not good.

Best moment of the day was when my opponent played stoneforge and fetched Shuko. I didn't know what was going on and i lost some turns later to cephalid illusionist (also because i had both behemoths in hand with no way to cast them). I then proceeded to stomp him in games 2 and 3 :)

[BJeagle]

Yesterday i played a coat of arms though opponents show an tell, played alpt off elves atttacked with a huge army. U should seen the opponents faceexpresion, he said no one playes CoA.... It work very well in the jund matchup aswell. I know its expensive but it works against sweepers.


Skickas från min iPhone via Tapatalk

[Lemnear]

Hmm, it's must just be my bad luck then. Also I tried looking through this topic and the tattoo thread on the mish mash board and am wondering where the pictures of the guy that got deathrite shaman and GSz tattood on his leg.

Shouldn't be burried too deep in this thread. It was my Bro, Kayradis

[Kayradis]

The pics are somewhere on this thread.
Getting more done on Monday.

[Kayradis]

Shouldn't be burried too deep in this thread. It was my Bro, Kayradis


http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26248-DTB-Elves!&p=784150&viewfull=1#post784150

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

Thanks for the Realm Razer recommendation. It worked like a charm as, in the end, I faced BOTH of the land decks. It created a nice speed bump.

[Julian23]

Won the Big Legacy Sideevent at GP Barcelona this weekend.

This is not a glitch in the matrix. I did the same at GP Paris two weeks ago.

List was my standard list but since I actually forgot Ruric That at home (I keep him in a special case because he's just to furious to be kept with the other cards over time) I went -1 Taiga +1 Pendelhaven. Sideboard had 1 Choke, 1 Null Rod and 2 Needles along with 6 Discard spells.

R1: MUC with Blood Moon, Meloku, Curfew - 2:0
R2: Death and Taxes, 2-0
R3: Esperblade - 1:2
R4: Miracles - 2:1
R5: Uw Imperial Painter - 2:1
R6: Merfolk - 2:1 (after receiving a game loss for being late)
R7: ID

1/4: Miracles - 2:1
1/2: Miracles - 2:0

Split the finals with TA and bought a FBB Taiga and 3 Forces for the store credit. Also + about 20 boosters.

Over #BoMParis #GPParis and #GPBarcelona, I'm actually 7-0-1 against Miracles over my last 8 matches against them. #IAmIndestructible! :wink:

[Lans89]

Won the Big Legacy Sideevent at GP Barcelona this weekend.

This is not a glitch in the matrix. I did the same at GP Paris two weeks ago.

List was my standard list but since I actually forgot Ruric That at home (I keep him in a special case because he's just to furious to be kept with the other cards over time) I went -1 Taiga +1 Pendelhaven. Sideboard had 1 Choke, 1 Null Rod and 2 Needles along with 6 Discard spells.

R1: MUC with Blood Moon, Meloku, Curfew - 2:0
R2: Death and Taxes, 2-0
R3: Esperblade - 1:2
R4: Miracles - 2:1
R5: Uw Imperial Painter - 2:1
R6: Merfolk - 2:1 (after receiving a game loss for being late)
R7: ID

1/4: Miracles - 2:1
1/2: Miracles - 2:0

Split the finals with TA and bought a FBB Taiga and 3 Forces for the store credit. Also + about 20 boosters.

Over #BoMParis #GPParis and #GPBarcelona, I'm actually 7-0-1 against Miracles over my last 8 matches against them. #IAmIndestructible! :wink:

Congratz :D! (What prize did you win?) Edit: Nice payout!

Your record vs Miracles is amazing! I just can't believe how all those Miracles players can have such a hard time vs Elves :p! The Needles and Decays obviously work.. And you should not throw all your creatures into Terminus, but still... They have Plow, Snapcaster Plow, Terminus, CB, counters and often even Clique, Supreme Verdict, Grafdigger's Cage and/or Canonist! When I play Miracles, boarding becomes even hard because of all the good cards (you don't want to cut too many wincons or you will end up in a draw or something).

[Shagstaman]

I failed to adopt the needle/null rod tech and got punished big time for it this weekend, with one of my only two losses coming from a turn 1 top turn 3 terminus every game... a single needle or null rod woulda won me that match putting me in top 8 of scg atlanta. lol best believe ima find room in my sb after that.

btw elves 2 stronk.

[dte]

Won the Big Legacy Sideevent at GP Barcelona this weekend.
I'm actually 7-0-1 against Miracles over my last 8 matches against them. #IAmIndestructible! :wink:

Congratulations!
I'm really impressed by your records vs miracles, maybe even more than by your systematic performances!
Maybe Elves piloted by Julian is one of the strongest decks :)

My last meeting vs Miracle (vs Einherjer) went all wrong, even after turn 2 null rod (wich ended up by blocking 2 EE + top), and pushed me out of day 2 at GP Paris (2 other losses against Belcher which had 2 T1 and vs omnishow).

But to me it does not seems as bad luck against miracle, my personal records against this deck are really awful. I will very much like a detailed report of your quarter and semifinals, and as much tips as you have (even if they seems obvious, it seems that I'm really missing something in this MU).

Did choke helped in these two Miracles encounters? Did they side in disenchant (Einherjer did)?

[Water_Wizard]

This is not a glitch in the matrix. I did the same at GP Paris two weeks ago.

Over #BoMParis #GPParis and #GPBarcelona, I'm actually 7-0-1 against Miracles over my last 8 matches against them. #IAmIndestructible! :wink:




Your record vs Miracles is amazing! I just can't believe how all those Miracles players can have such a hard time vs Elves :p! The Needles and Decays obviously work.. And you should not throw all your creatures into Terminus, but still... They have Plow, Snapcaster Plow, Terminus, CB, counters and often even Clique, Supreme Verdict, Grafdigger's Cage and/or Canonist! When I play Miracles, boarding becomes even hard because of all the good cards (you don't want to cut too many wincons or you will end up in a draw or something).


Congratulations!
I'm really impressed by your records vs miracles, maybe even more than by your systematic performances!
Maybe Elves piloted by Julian is one of the strongest decks :)

My last meeting vs Miracle (vs Einherjer) went all wrong, even after turn 2 null rod (wich ended up by blocking 2 EE + top), and pushed me out of day 2 at GP Paris (2 other losses against Belcher which had 2 T1 and vs omnishow).

But to me it does not seems as bad luck against miracle, my personal records against this deck are really awful. I will very much like a detailed report of your quarter and semifinals, and as much tips as you have (even if they seems obvious, it seems that I'm really missing something in this MU).

Did choke helped in these two Miracles encounters? Did they side in disenchant (Einherjer did)?

Julian,
I was wondering if you had any updated advice from this quote from the second post. Clearly, somethings have changed. Tell us about your new experience.

""Ach! Hans, run! It's a miracle!"

This is Shiva, destroyer of worlds. Our matchup against Shiva is awesomely bad, and I advise staying away from it at all costs. Seriously, game 1 against Miracles is a really tough one. I've spent dozens of test games trying to find a practical way of actually grinding out Miracles in game 1—yes, I'm that crazy. In the end, the best advice I can give you is trying to close out the game as soon as possible. Because you don't have the tools to efficiently fight neither Counterbalance nor Top, your best bet is to put them on the spot for having Terminus as soon as possible. Remember, that when bad odds are still the best odds you can get, it's the absolutely right play to go for it. Way to often do I see people complaining about somebody making a perceivably "bad play"—like playing right into Terminus—without actually understanding that odds of winning the game on the spot at 30% is still better than your regular game 1 percentage against Miracles of about 20% if you try to grind it out.

After sideboarding things become way easier. Which doesn't mean that you're not still the underdog. I like siding in the Progenitus package, as unlike your other Natural Order options Progenitus can only be handled by Terminus, which means that your other NOs will stay live. I also used to side out both Craterhoofs here, but once you manage to shut down Sensei's Divining Top with Pithing Needle, the Hoof kill actually becomes semi-viable again and requires them to have a Brainstorm into Terminus to stop it. The rest should be pretty much self-explanatory. If Thoughtseize them on turn 1, always aim for their Sensei's Divining Top unless there's an incredibly convining other card you want to take.

In case you're running Gaddock Teeg, here's a trick for you; if your opponent Swords to Plowshares your Gaddock Teeg during a crucial moment (e.g. a lethal attack), you can Abrupt Decay his Top in response. This leaves him with the decision to either save his Top and be unable to cast his Terminus or lose his Top and risk losing the game right away."

[Julian23]

After returning from Barcelona, I immediately took a flight to Berlin, where I have been busy over the last couple of days. Sorry for not responding to all of your requests by now.

I'm currently working on an article for http://mtgmadness.com to cover all of the above. Feel free to take this opportunity and shoot me any questions that I will discuss in detail then. Thanks guys :smile:

[cachipus]

Hi Julian!

What side its better? With Swan song and the tropical or with Mindbreak and Cabal therapy?

My side:
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Swan Song
1 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
1 Worldspine Wurm
4 Thoughtseize
2 Phiting needle

The main its like yours but with 60 the tropical island and 17 Lands, i dont have de 4th Gaeas cradle.

Thanks

[dte]

Hi everybody,

Julian, I am looking forward to read your article. Thanks in advance!

[andrebonotto]

After returning from Barcelona, I immediately took a flight to Berlin, where I have been busy over the last couple of days. Sorry for not responding to all of your requests by now.

I'm currently working on an article for http://mtgmadness.com to cover all of the above. Feel free to take this opportunity and shoot me any questions that I will discuss in detail then. Thanks guys :smile:

Hey Julian,

Congrats on your recent performances! They're quite inspiring! :smile:

Now, regarding the questions for the article...

I realize I do not make the most efficient and strategical use of my Deathrite Shamans, specially when I'm facing an opposing DRS deck.

I was wondering if you could include this matter on your article - i.e., besides the obvious cases (e.g., one is about to lose if he does not gain 2 life with DRS; or if one activate DRS now he drains the last 2 life from his opponent and win), when do you think it's "right" to prefer using DRS for life gaining; when it's "right" to prefer using it for life draining; and when it's "right" to just let it stand on the field to threaten countering your opponent's DRS activation ?

EDIT: I realize there's plenty of contextual data that interferes on this matter so, if you could give some general tips and then illustrate them with particular game situations, that would be great.

Best wishes,

- André

[D@N]

So after a long testing session wed against a more then competent miracles player I actually dont know how anyone wins this m/u. Sure u can squeak out a win here or there but you can still see plenty of your sideboard cards and still either lose to moat or terminus'. Im playing the standard 61 with this in the board.

3 therapy
3 decay
2 thoughtseize
2 needles
1 null rod
1 n/o
1 progenitus
2 swan song

I have since changed my mind on swan song, its nice to have a surprise counter for storm but thats if they dont discard it first and against miracles all they do is either flip their top and counter or get a 2/2 over moat. I thinking of changing the songs to one teeg and a harmonic sliver to deal with everything besides humility. Being cast of drs or rangers isnt to hard and tutorable with gsz or order. Im going to seattle next weekend and needed some advice on what to change. Im expecting alot of delver since last event he had a big showing and that was just before tnn.

[Julian23]

Hey guys, thanks for th questions. I'll try to work everything into an article but please give it some time. I just rally arrived home today after travelling Europe for th last 2 weeks.

@cachipus, D@N: As I said, I myself moved away from Swan Song some time ago. Because of the recent rise of Miracles, I also dropped two of the Mindbreak Traps and added 1 Null Rod and 1 Choke instead and I couldn't be happier with it. Especially Null Rod has become really handy although I usually don't side it in against SFM-based decks. Denying mana against Storm is a nice, but blanking the One-with-Nothing-part of LED is also important.

Overall, despite my stellar record against Miracles over the last big events, I still consider it by far the worst matchup; so don't feel bad about losing it, it's really ugly. As I said before, especially in game1 it's really important to put them on the spot ASAP unless you have very good reasons not to; I had one of those in the 1/4 finals at Barcelona where my opponent very clearly represented Counterspell on turn2.

/Edit: Here's the treasures I collected for #1 in the #GPParis and #GPBarca sideevents :smile:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BiOzYpTCMAA2Vyg.jpg

[dte]

Hi Julian,

I do not think there is any emergency, but I would like to thank you for your efforts.

I'm particularly interested by your boarding plans, like if you board in Thoughtseize OTD against miracles and in which MUs you enter choke (after seeing a second place at GP with 2 REB MD, it seems generic blue hate could be quite useful, but I'm afraid of oversideboarding).

Greetings

[D@N]

I never see any of my one ofs in the board unless i can tutor for them. Id like to see some peoples boards and reasons for slots and experiences with them.

[andrebonotto]

I never see any of my one ofs in the board unless i can tutor for them (...)

Me neither. Unless...

http://i.imgur.com/Rk96vAm.jpg

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

. . . ain't that the truth. I can't believe how many times I've drawn Progenitus as a 1 of. Sadly, it's happened so frequently that I've actually hard cast it twice. Admittedly, I do take some (clearly unwarranted) joy when my opponent makes me discard it; but after drawing it, you have to take what joys you can.

[th3 w1z4rd]

Me neither. Unless...

http://i.imgur.com/Rk96vAm.jpg

This, times infinity. EVERY TIME.

[Shagstaman]

legendary hydras love the hand. It's a warm, comfortable place where they know they can't be summoned from (usually).

glad to know I'm not the only one...

[LeoCop 90]

The Progenitus in hand problem is why i currently run a worldspine wurm main deck. My meta has very little combo so ruric thar main isn't needed, but playing progenitus main is risky because i don't want to have him in hand too often. Worldspine is castable with only 11 green mana XD
He is bad against swords to plowshares, but i experienced that opponents will often throw their swords to the first elves/insects they see to slow you down, then die to an unexpected 15/15 wurm :)

[danyul]

That's interesting.

I also often draw Progenitus when I board him in. And it's frustrating.

Leo - Did you previously run a Prog main? Only to replace it with the Wurm? It seems like that's the case from your post. I believe most people run the Prog in the side. Since the Prog is mostly brought in for fair matchups, or matchups in which removal is an issue, is it reasonable to replace Progenitus entirely with Worldspine Wurm? If they serve the same purpose, and one is easily castable where the other is not, then replacing Prog with the Wurm seems like an easy choice.

The only issue is Swords to Plowshares. But gaining 15 life is usually fine by me. Maybe that's not a huge issue at all. Also, the Wurm seems much better against Show and Tell decks.

Thoughts?

[lordofthepit]

That's interesting.

I also often draw Progenitus when I board him in. And it's frustrating.

Leo - Did you previously run a Prog main? Only to replace it with the Wurm? It seems like that's the case from your post. I believe most people run the Prog in the side. Since the Prog is mostly brought in for fair matchups, or matchups in which removal is an issue, is it reasonable to replace Progenitus entirely with Worldspine Wurm? If they serve the same purpose, and one is easily castable where the other is not, then replacing Prog with the Wurm seems like an easy choice.

The only issue is Swords to Plowshares. But gaining 15 life is usually fine by me. Maybe that's not a huge issue at all. Also, the Wurm seems much better against Show and Tell decks.

Thoughts?


You cannot play Worldspine Wurm unless you plan to use it to chain Natural Orders.

[danyul]

You cannot play Worldspine Wurm unless you plan to use it to chain Natural Orders.

Of course.

Also, it just occurred to me that the Wurm is better than Prog vs a Liliana or a Supreme Verdict. Hmmmmmmm.

[Koby]

Of course.

Also, it just occurred to me that the Wurm is better than Prog vs a Liliana or a Supreme Verdict. Hmmmmmmm.

Or Emrakul, specifically - while also being able to cast it (as opposed to Progeny)

[LeoCop 90]

Yes, previously i was running progenitus main deck because, as i stated, my meta is prevalently fair. Then i got annoyed drawing progenitus too often and i decided to replace him with a worldspine wurm (well, drawing wurm is not so much better, but at least you can cast realistically cast it). I opted for this change also because my progenitus was killed once by toxic deluge=10 and once by supreme verdict, and i lost those games.

Initially i was worried about swords to plowshares, but anyway i realized that opponents can't hold swords to answer the wurm.... they need to kill your elves with swords or you can fetch behemoth and it's game. It can happen that someone draws a sword after you cast wurm, but it's not very likely, or at least this was my experience.

Currently i play 2 behemoths, 1 wurm main , and 1 ruric thar, 1 progenitus side. Progenitus is still there for decks with swords to plowshares but without mass removal (patriot) , but maybe is possible to cut it. I also run 4 natural order main since i have the option to natural order for wurm since the first game.
Obviously this is a meta call, and i strongly believe that the better choice for an unknown meta is julian's 1 ruric thar main, since our main weakness is combo and we are already quite well positioned against fair decks.

[danyul]

Thanks for your insight, Leo. I think I'll give that Wurm a try this weekend at SCG Seattle.

Now I need to hunt down some sweet Wurm tokens!

[Julian23]

Thanks for your insight, Leo. I think I'll give that Wurm a try this weekend at SCG Seattle.

Now I need to hunt down some sweet Wurm tokens!

Props to you if you just use dead earthworms.

[danyul]

LOL I'm cracking up at work now. Man if I was back on the playground, I might just do that. These days even looking at worms grosses me out.

EDIT: I just had a thought - I'll use sour gummy worms as tokens. That way I can eat them after the game and get a nice sugar boost throughout the day. Are you allowed to use candy as tokens at a Competitive REL event?

[MegaManR]

1st post here.

^I think using gummy wurms would be hilarious/awesome. Go for it (but I'd have token cards or green dice as backup just in case). LOL


I'm going to a local tournament in a couple weekends, and am wondering people's advice on my build. I've read this entire thread, and have played this deck for a while now, gotten quite good with it, but am relatively new to playing it competitively. I went to the SCG Open in Providence in November (3-3 drop), and a Buncha Duals event in December (3-2 drop). I'm taking it back to the Buncha Duals in a couple weekends, and am hoping for better results this time around. It seemed the last time I went there was a whole lot of TNN Decks, some Sneak/Show Decks, a Belcher Deck, some Storm (one that took me out 2-1), and a few other Elves Decks (one of which took 8th out of 80)... Any advice? Here's what I have access to, and what my current build is:

MD:
4xGaea's Cradle
4xMisty Rainforest
4xVerdant Catacombs
2xBayou
4xForest
2xDryad Arbor
4xDeathrite Shaman
4xNettle Sentinel
3xHeritage Druid
1xBirchlore Rangers
4xElvish Visionary
4xWirewood Symbiote
4xQuirion Ranger
1xElvish Mystic
1xViridian Shaman
1xRuric-Thar, the Unbowed
2xCraterhoof Behemoth
4xGlimpse of Nature
4xGreen Sun's Zenith
3xNatural Order

SB:
1xScavenging Ooze
1xNatural Order
1xProgenitus
2xThorn of Amethyst
3xThoughtseize
2xCabal Therapy
3xAbrupt Decay
2xPithing Needle

I have a 4th Thoughtseize, 4th Abrupt Decay, 2 Meekstones, 2 Choke, 2 Tormod's Crypt, 1 Worldspine Wurm, 4 Swan Song, 4 Surgical Extraction (there was a Reanimator Deck that beat me even with a Turn 1 DrS every game), 1 Viridian Zealot...

[MegaManR]

Also, thanks to everyone who works on this primer/thread. It's been my savior when building this deck and learning from you all. Also, thanks in advance, for any advice/tips I get.

[whienot]

LOL I'm cracking up at work now. Man if I was back on the playground, I might just do that. These days even looking at worms grosses me out.

EDIT: I just had a thought - I'll use sour gummy worms as tokens. That way I can eat them after the game and get a nice sugar boost throughout the day. Are you allowed to use candy as tokens at a Competitive REL event?


If you don't want to dig up earthworms, or expose your tasty treats to the viral/bacterial overdrive that is a magic tournament:

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NTAyWDk0Nw==/z/EyIAAOxy3zNShPzZ/$_35.JPG


Bulky VHS boxes ftw.

[danyul]

@MegaManR - Your list looks good. Nothing crazy going on there. The only thing I question is the maindeck Ruric Thar. But based on the short description you gave, perhaps your meta calls for that. You haven't given us a wealth of information to go off of, but my advice would be to review Julian's Sideboarding guide (it's all in the post that follows the primer) and to always look for additional interactions to take advantage of. I don't know your tournament history, so I apologize if this sounds patronizing, but if you ever feel like you don't know what your gameplan is or if you question your role in a matchup, then you should go back and analyze that gamestate/matchup until you solve that problem. Losing is whatever. That happens to everybody (except maybe Julian!). But the most important thing is to get a feel for the matchups and know what you *should* be doing, no matter who your opponent is and regardless of whether or not they let you actually implement your gameplan. You just need a plan. Once you are comfortable in that space, I think your results will improve.

Also, just try to relax and enjoy the game. I see plenty of people tense up and start to make loose plays because they are nervous. Playing in big competitive events requires a set of skills that is completely separate from your deck or your sideboarding or whatever. Just stay alert, look for triggers/interactions, and calmly Hoof everybody. Oh, also, don't play scared. I'd rather lose to a card they had than lose to a card I only thought they had.

My apologies if all that stuff is redundant advice.


If you don't want to dig up earthworms, or expose your tasty treats to the viral/bacterial overdrive that is a magic tournament:

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NTAyWDk0Nw==/z/EyIAAOxy3zNShPzZ/$_35.JPG

Bulky VHS boxes ftw.

This is beautiful.

[MegaManR]

@danyul, Thanks so much for the quick reply. Yea, I go back and forth with the maindeck Ruric-Thar, too. I sometimes choose to get him when I really shouldn't, and sometimes he finds his way into my hand... I'll keep reading the primer and matchups again, but I think you're right. Just know the opposing decks and what I need to do to beat them. I thoroughly enjoy playing the deck, and am usually pretty calm, so that shouldn't be a problem. I'll bring my mini Buddha statue with me next time as a calm/good luck charm, too.

With so much blue in the meta, is it worth running 2 Choke in the SB, or does that take away from the already limited spots we have?


@MegaManR - Your list looks good. Nothing crazy going on there. The only thing I question is the maindeck Ruric Thar. But based on the short description you gave, perhaps your meta calls for that. You haven't given us a wealth of information to go off of, but my advice would be to review Julian's Sideboarding guide (it's all in the post that follows the primer) and to always look for additional interactions to take advantage of. I don't know your tournament history, so I apologize if this sounds patronizing, but if you ever feel like you don't know what your gameplan is or if you question your role in a matchup, then you should go back and analyze that gamestate/matchup until you solve that problem. Losing is whatever. That happens to everybody (except maybe Julian!). But the most important thing is to get a feel for the matchups and know what you *should* be doing, no matter who your opponent is and regardless of whether or not they let you actually implement your gameplan. You just need a plan. Once you are comfortable in that space, I think your results will improve.

Also, just try to relax and enjoy the game. I see plenty of people tense up and start to make loose plays because they are nervous. Playing in big competitive events requires a set of skills that is completely separate from your deck or your sideboarding or whatever. Just stay alert, look for triggers/interactions, and calmly Hoof everybody. Oh, also, don't play scared. I'd rather lose to a card they had than lose to a card I only thought they had.

My apologies if all that stuff is redundant advice.

[danyul]

I know Julian has been running 1x Choke and likes it. I think he mentioned that on the previous page. Looking at your SB, the easiest things to cut are probably the Thorn of Amethyst. The SB doesn't have much room for forgiveness, so you will have to make painful cuts no matter what you decide to do. But perhaps you can sacrifice those Thorns vs Combo to help shore up your matchup vs Control via Choke. You already have discard and MD Ruric Thar for the combo decks. Just a thought.

Also, regarding your MD, I just noticed you have 8 fetches and 4 basics. If possible, I'd go up to 10 fetches and 2 basics. But I understand if budget restrictions are a thing for you.

[Julian23]

Either Choke or Null Rod. If I had to cut one, I would definitely keep the Rod as it still has non-negligible splash damage vs Storm combo and doubles in it's main function at stopping both Sensei's Divining Top and Engineered Explosives. Just don't ever cut Needles for additional Rods.

[MegaManR]

Thanks again. Good points, and will definitely plan/prepare accordingly. I'll have to borrow the additional fetch(es)/dual from a friend. Been spending too much lately, though being an adult with a Full-time job makes it that much easier. Ha. Sideboarding in a 1-of that you can't tutor for seems weird to me, but will keep it in mind. Gotta get some practice in with this build over the next week.

I want those Duals!


I know Julian has been running 1x Choke and likes it. I think he mentioned that on the previous page. Looking at your SB, the easiest things to cut are probably the Thorn of Amethyst. The SB doesn't have much room for forgiveness, so you will have to make painful cuts no matter what you decide to do. But perhaps you can sacrifice those Thorns vs Combo to help shore up your matchup vs Control via Choke. You already have discard and MD Ruric Thar for the combo decks. Just a thought.

Also, regarding your MD, I just noticed you have 8 fetches and 4 basics. If possible, I'd go up to 10 fetches and 2 basics. But I understand if budget restrictions are a thing for you.

[danyul]

Well, let's just hope you draw your SB 1-ofs as often as the rest of us draw our SB Progeniti. You will be unstoppable.

[bondafong]

Either Choke or Null Rod. If I had to cut one, I would definitely keep the Rod as it still has non-negligible splash damage vs Storm combo and doubles in it's main function at stopping both Sensei's Divining Top and Engineered Explosives. Just don't ever cut Needles for additional Rods.

What's your current sideboard? And what's your reasoning behind not cutting a Needle for the Second Rod (my personal reasoning is only Grim Lavamancer and nothing else)?

For reference I've been running the following sideboard in a couple of weeks (pretty standard main with Ruric):
1xScavenging Ooze
1xNatural Order
1xProgenitus
4xThoughtseize
3xCabal Therapy
3xAbrupt Decay
1xPithing Needle
1xNull Rod

I really want to find room for a Choke, as the only thing I've had trouble with have been blue decks. As my local meta have plenty of Storm and Omnitell I think the 7 discard suit is really nice.

[Zombie]

What's your current sideboard? And what's your reasoning behind not cutting a Needle for the Second Rod (my personal reasoning is only Grim Lavamancer and nothing else)?

For reference I've been running the following sideboard in a couple of weeks (pretty standard main with Ruric):
1xScavenging Ooze
1xNatural Order
1xProgenitus
4xThoughtseize
3xCabal Therapy
3xAbrupt Decay
1xPithing Needle
1xNull Rod

I really want to find room for a Choke, as the only thing I've had trouble with have been blue decks. As my local meta have plenty of Storm and Omnitell I think the 7 discard suit is really nice.

Currently, I'd go (2Hoof/Ruric/Ooze/Shaman main, 61 card build):

3 Swan Song or Cabal Therapy according to taste
3 Thoughtseize
1 Progenitus
1 Natural Order
2 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Choke
3 Abrupt Decay

A bit soft to Storm, but hates on UW splendidly.

[Julian23]

Currently, I'd go (2Hoof/Ruric/Ooze/Shaman main, 61 card build):

3 Swan Song or Cabal Therapy according to taste
3 Thoughtseize
1 Progenitus
1 Natural Order
2 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Choke
3 Abrupt Decay

A bit soft to Storm, but hates on UW splendidly.

This is exactly what I am running (3 Cabal Therapy). Only thing is that Ruric Thar seems to have escapped from his cage inside my apartment and I've been playing/winning my last tournament (GP Barcelona sideevent) without him.

[SpencerS]

See you there Sunday Danyul!

I am going with ooze/shaman main. I am torn between Ruric Main or Not...

Sb:

1xNO
1xProg
1xGaddock Teeg
1xNeedle
1xRuric Thar
3xSwan Song
3xAbrupt Decay
4x Thoughtsieze

thoughts?

I am also playing 3x Manadorks main by shaving off 1xNettle/Heritage. I just feel the dork turn1 is always necessary.

[Echelon]

Your SB looks like you're expecting to face a lot of combo and rather little Uxy Delver. Am I correct in thinking this?

I can agree with the dorks-thing by the way. I like to run a total of 9 DRS/dorks/Dryad Arbor (switching from 3 dork & 2 Arbor to 4 dork & 1 Arbor from time to time), seems to work rather well.

[SpencerS]

There will be a lot of U/x delver, but I feel more comfortable in that match than the slew of Ant/Tes

I could always go for another aprupt or needle and drop the Gaddock, however having a GSZ target T2 is critical imho.

[Echelon]

True. Though, vs. a number of forms of combo you could also use Dryad Millitant. Costs 1 less then Teeg and doesn't hurt your Zeniths/NO's.

It saved my ass 2 weeks ago against dredge. It prevented my opponent from stripping my hand with his Therapies and outright killing me with a Dread Returned Elesh Norn, lol.

You might want to run a Null Rod somewhere in there as well, also for the Miracles MU (if you're expecting it).

[Lemnear]

Dryad Militant is just bad. Doesn't stop Dredge-mechanic, Bridge from Below, Reanimator, S&T or TES. The only decks affected are treshol.d and ANT

[Echelon]

Dryad Militant is just bad. Doesn't stop Dredge-mechanic, Bridge from Below, Reanimator, S&T or TES. The only decks affected are treshol.d and ANT

It doesn't need to stop the Dredge-mechanic - if dropped early enough it prevents the dredge-player from flashbacking his spells, making Ichorid his only way of producing tokens and recurring Ichorid pretty much the only thing the deck can do. Incidentally that also kills one of his postboard answers to your deck (Dread Returning Elesh Norn).

As for Reanimator & S&T - neither of those are stopped by Gaddok Teeg and Teeg's useless against treshol.d, for that matter. Also, Dryad isn't all that good vs. tr.esh either - it's often one of the first things to eat a Bolt/StP.

What's up with the ***-ing tr.esh.old, by the way?

[Lemnear]

To be fair, Teeg stops Sneak Attack

[Echelon]

That's absolutely true, but it does still leave them with Show & Tell itself and the necessary cantrips and shuffle effects to dig for it, so you'll still have to race them like a madman :smile:

To differentiate - having Teeg on the field does give you a wonderful chance against Omni-tell while Dryad Millitant would just make them giggle, at best.

[Lemnear]

That's absolutely true, but it does still leave them with Show & Tell itself and the necessary cantrips and shuffle effects to dig for it, so you'll still have to race them like a madman :smile:

That's the point: If you STILL HAVE to race them regardless of Dryad Militant, I barely see a reason to run it at all as there are better slots for racing (like anything, stating with Llanowar up to discard)

[Echelon]

That's the point: If you STILL HAVE to race them regardless of Dryad Militant, I barely see a reason to run it at all as there are better slots for racing (like anything, stating with Llanowar up to discard)

You still have to race them regardless of Gaddok Teeg, so you barely see a reason to run Teeg..?

We already concluded Millitant doesn't help against S&T, that was never the point.

[Lemnear]

You still have to race them regardless of Gaddok Teeg, so you barely see a reason to run Teeg..?

We already concluded Millitant doesn't help against S&T, that was never the point.

I don't run Teeg for the same reason, if that was your question. I just wanted to highlight, that the use of DM is ridiculously limited compared to Teeg overall. That fact alone still doesn't make Teeg a top choice today. For your turn 2 or 3, sideboard slots are better reserved for splash-hate like Nullrod etc. than for GSZ into Teeg

[Echelon]

Alrighty, in that case I've understood your point :smile:. Thank you for elaborating further :smile:

[Lemnear]

Alrighty, in that case I've understood your point :smile:. Thank you for elaborating further :smile:

Anytime my friend. I'm sorry that I wasn't completely clear about my stance on Teeg from the start, causing confusion. That happens if I only respond in 1-2 sentences :/

[danyul]

See you there Sunday Danyul!

I am going with ooze/shaman main. I am torn between Ruric Main or Not...

Sb:

1xNO
1xProg
1xGaddock Teeg
1xNeedle
1xRuric Thar
3xSwan Song
3xAbrupt Decay
4x Thoughtsieze

thoughts?

I am also playing 3x Manadorks main by shaving off 1xNettle/Heritage. I just feel the dork turn1 is always necessary.

I'll see you there, dude. And your comment about the manadorks makes a lot of sense. I end up siding out a Nettle Sentinel quite often. I"ll try -1 Nettle +1 Llanowar at the Legacy Challenge and see how that runs.

Also, a heads up - the local Seattle meta lately has a ton of Miracles, TNN-Blade, and of course the usual Delver decks. Prepare yourself for battle!

[SpencerS]

Thanks for the heads up, null rod over Teeg it is.
I find versus fair decks, on the play versus death rite/x, and combo your fast starts come from dorks. I don't like gsz into arbor versus the meta right now.

May we both top8 again. ;)

[danyul]

http://i41.tinypic.com/4r9izc.jpg

[nudon]

Thanks for the heads up, null rod over Teeg it is.
I find versus fair decks, on the play versus death rite/x, and combo your fast starts come from dorks. I don't like gsz into arbor versus the meta right now.

May we both top8 again. ;)

If you're expecting a lot of miracles, I think gsz->teeg becomes a pretty important play. Either way, good luck to you guys! :)

[Julian23]

Even there you'd much rather have Needle or Null Rod. Teeg becomes a dead card against Mirales way too fast. He's good at what he does but he's also much less reliable than the other options.

[nudon]

Even there you'd much rather have Needle or Null Rod. Teeg becomes a dead card against Mirales way too fast. He's good at what he does but he's also much less reliable than the other options.

Personally, I don't run teeg because miracles isn't heavily played in my area. My guess was that teeg (in conjunction with needle) is better than null rod since you have 5 copies instead of 1. The needles already help answer top while teeg stops EE and all of their X spells. StP still answers it but in my experience, your opponent will use it to slow your t1 dork. That leaves karakas, which is a 1/2-of.

[Zombie]

Personally, I don't run teeg because miracles isn't heavily played in my area. My guess was that teeg (in conjunction with needle) is better than null rod since you have 5 copies instead of 1. The needles already help answer top while teeg stops EE and all of their X spells. StP still answers it but in my experience, your opponent will use it to slow your t1 dork. That leaves karakas, which is a 1/2-of.

The thing is, stopping Miracles from winning isn't that bad for them. Shutting down their Top, though? It instantly turns their deck into an inconsistent piece of clunk.

[nudon]

The thing is, stopping Miracles from winning isn't that bad for them. Shutting down their Top, though? It instantly turns their deck into an inconsistent piece of clunk.

I think most of us agree with this. However, I think having another needle instead would be better than null rod in this match-up. Extra copies stop karakas shenanigans along with jace. I realize that cmc2 is better if you're already in a cb-lock. However, I feel including null rod to stop ee + top activations simultaneously is pretty narrow in nature. Meanwhile, teeg prevents your opponent from doing bs/ponder->terminus/entreat. Either way, I think both needle/teeg are better than rod in the miracle match-up.

[SpencerS]

Yeah , Gaddock is also a strong choice against storm decks but I think the sideboard has enough hate , especially if ant/Tes expects reef and brings in abrupt decay . Julian or someone , talk to me about Choke ?

[Lemnear]

Yeah , Gaddock is also a strong choice against storm decks but I think the sideboard has enough hate , especially if ant/Tes expects reef and brings in abrupt decay . Julian or someone , talk to me about Choke ?

Erm, I'm barely qualified to comment here, but TES simply Grapeshots your whole board including Teeg if necessary, not to talk about the possibility of killing you turn 1/2 or Silence-Walk your turn 2. The whole reason to include MBT and discard in the first place was to have turn 0/1 outs against combo. Teeg is a turn 2 play at best which was often too slow in the first place and even resolved with a questionable impact. Boarding Decay would be a waste

[pingpong]

So ill be playing in a tournament tomorrow and im unsure on how to round out my sideboard.

Maindeck is 20 lands and then 2 craterhoof, 1llanowar, 1 viridian shaman, 1 Scavenging ooze no birchlore. The rest being normal.

Sideboard:
1 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
3 Abrupt decay
3 Thoughtseize
3 Therapy
2 Thorn of Amethyst

Last two cards are down to 3 (Unless im missing something)
2 Needles and ruric thar. Splitting them seems bad and im not sure how good ruric is in a blind meta or as the 61st.

Thoughts ?? Thanks for the help

[HammafistRoob]

Erm, I'm barely qualified to comment here, but TES simply Grapeshots your whole board including Teeg if necessary, not to talk about the possibility of killing you turn 1/2 or Silence-Walk your turn 2. The whole reason to include MBT and discard in the first place was to have turn 0/1 outs against combo. Teeg is a turn 2 play at best which was often too slow in the first place and even resolved with a questionable impact. Boarding Decay would be a waste

So basically they need Burning Wish or they simply lose. Even if they have a Wish they have to dump a decent amount of resources into clearing up your board, which should leave you with time to Natural Order them out. I agree that he can sometimes be too slow, but that's why discard is brought in as well to slow them down that extra turn. Plus TES isn't played nearly as much as AnT, and Teeg is a house against them and Miracles.

Tldr; Against TES or Burning AnT, Teeg= have Wish or bust.
Against Miracles, Teeg= have StP or death

Since those mathups aren't good for Elves! I'd say not playing a one of Teeg is a mistake.

[Julian23]

As I said, I'd much rather have another Null Rod than Teeg. No question the impact of Teeg against Miracles is slightly higher, but he he's also that much more volatile. Null Rod is always good, Teeg is not. It's not about StP; it's about Karakas completly blanking your card.

Shutting down SDT is your #1 priority, not Terminus. I'd even go as far as to say that we are clearly favored against Miracles if we manage to do that.
So make sure to take advantage of the whole situation until Miracles players finally decide that Wear/Tear should be sided in against Elves.

[HammafistRoob]

As I said, I'd much rather have another Null Rod than Teeg. No question the impact of Teeg against Miracles is slightly higher, but he he's also that much more volatile. Null Rod is always good, Teeg is not. It's not about StP; it's about Karakas completly blanking your card.
But by playing one Teeg, it's like you're essentially playing 5 because of Zenith. You have to actually draw your Null Rod to stop their Top. As nudon said a few posts up, I think Needle is just straight up a better solution if stopping Top is your #1 priority, but I think it should be getting Teeg in play. They have at most 5 answers to Teeg(1 Karakas, 4StP), and you can possibly bait a StP before you go for the Kithkin Advisor.


Shutting down SDT is your #1 priority, not Terminus. I'd even go as far as to say that we are clearly favored against Miracles if we manage to do that.
I agree with this. The problem is that you don't have a lot of ways to accomplish this. I really think you should be looking at Needle instead.


So make sure to take advantage of the whole situation until Miracles players finally decide that Wear/Tear should be sided in against Elves.
I hope, you were kidding here? That just seems so awful to side in a one-or-two of to stop a one-or-two of.

[Einherjer]

I hope, you were kidding here? That just seems so awful to side in a one-or-two of to stop a one-or-two of.

No he is not. Disenchant/Wear//Tear has to be sideboarded against Elves.

Greetings

[Lemnear]

So basically they need Burning Wish or they simply lose. Even if they have a Wish they have to dump a decent amount of resources into clearing up your board, which should leave you with time to Natural Order them out. I agree that he can sometimes be too slow, but that's why discard is brought in as well to slow them down that extra turn. Plus TES isn't played nearly as much as AnT, and Teeg is a house against them and Miracles.

Tldr; Against TES or Burning AnT, Teeg= have Wish or bust.
Against Miracles, Teeg= have StP or death

Since those mathups aren't good for Elves! I'd say not playing a one of Teeg is a mistake.

You need turn 2 Teeg and your opponent plays 12 cantrips + 4 Wishes to clear the field. Dumping artifacts on the field or casting Probes fuels stormcount without any card Investment and even if you have to invest a Ritual and a Wish to clear 4-5 creatures that is still a damn good trade. If you look for a card to supplement discard in the storm matchup I'd rather look at Nullrod or Ruric than at Teeg. Miracles has StoP, Karakas and Top/BS/Ponder to find those. I'm not impressed.

It's not always the case that you can cast Therapy/Teeg/etc. T1/2 and just follow up with the nutdraw turn 2/3 Natural Order into Ruric Thar if they solve Teeg.

[HammafistRoob]

No he is not. Disenchant/Wear//Tear has to be sideboarded against Elves.

Greetings
Why exactly is that true?

@ Lemnear- Could you just like not reply to my posts?

[Einherjer]

Why exactly is that true?

@ Lemnear- Could you just like not reply to my posts?

It's the very same problem with BUG Delver. Both decks, Elves and TA don't necessarily use artifacts, but if they do - they wreck Miracle. Those cards range from Pithing Needle to Winter Orb and Null Rod, alongside special stuff like Sylvan Library or whatever. So while those cards don't really contribute anything to the decks game plan they are very vital when it comes down to how those decks interact with Miracles. Shutting off Top is key, as mentioned by serveral guys here. Sure, I can Force of Will it, or keep my Spell Pierces in the deck, and not the Flusterstorms - but you could still be on the play and land Needle, or I could be tapped out and you could deploy Null Rod, which also nullifies my initial splash-answer to hate like this - Engineered Explosives. At first I was under the impression that boarding in Disenchant in g3 was fine as long as I saw Needle/Rod but I switched over to the point of view where you prefer to make sure nothing ever happens that kills you without having a non-FoW answer to it. So I am now boarding Disenchant vs Elves in every G2, maybe not if I see newbordered Forests and multiple Elves that aren't played in good variants, but against anything that looks remotely close to what is state of the art - my Disenchant comes in.

I hope I could help - if not, feel free to ask again.

Greetings

[HammafistRoob]

I understand that, I just don't think I can really agree with boarding in answers for a one of. I guess it really comes down to which cards you are taking out for the Disenchants or Wear//Tears.

Thanks for the well thouggt out explanation though.

[Lemnear]

@ Lemnear- Could you just like not reply to my posts?

What? I should keep my mouth so that your bold and false statements like the folowing remain unquestioned in the thread?

Look at that one


Against TES or Burning AnT, Teeg= have Wish or bust.
Against Miracles, Teeg= have StP or death

In the 75 of GP Paris T16 Miracles lists there are Tops, Brainstorm, Ponder, StoP, Karakas, Engineered Explosives, Grafdiggers Cage and Pyroclasm. "StP or Death" is a bad hyperbole even considering that EE for X=1 can be played before Teeg comes down.

I guess the usual procedure here after I dismembered both of those bold statements is to call me a troll again? Like in other threads before?

[HammafistRoob]

You got me. I was definitely exaggerating, but cantrips clearly aren't answers to Teeg and neither is Cage if he's in play.
Troll

edit- And yes you can keep your mouth.

[LeoCop 90]

Once in my life i want to Natural Order for Fyndhorn Brownie. I saw this card yesterday at my local store and I'm in love XD

[TsumiBand]

Once in my life i want to Natural Order for Fyndhorn Brownie. I saw this card yesterday at my local store and I'm in love XD

Can you please sac Tarpan to NO when you do this?

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[264505]

It seems like the elves player in the top 8 is throwing these games away. He kept an awful 7 in game 1 and missed some DRS tricks in game 2 that ended up putting him way behind.

[Float4WeldSlaver]

It seems like the elves player in the top 8 is throwing these games away. He kept an awful 7 in game 1 and missed some DRS tricks in game 2 that ended up putting him way behind.

Agreed. I was floored in game 1 after Jund player tapped out for Liliana, edicting him, swung with Confidant--and the elves player didn't fetch Arbor eot to kill Liliana. It was also a garbage keep of 5 lands, DRS, and Visionary.

[Julian23]

I didn't see the games but according to his list, he only plays a single Dryad Arbor. Maybe he didn't have any left?

Regarding the keep, I think I'm very likely to keep 5 lands, 1 DRS, 1 Visionary on the draw. Not too sure on the play though.

[bondafong]

I didn't see the games but according to his list, he only plays a single Dryad Arbor. Maybe he didn't have any left?

Regarding the keep, I think I'm very likely to keep 5 lands, 1 DRS, 1 Visionary on the draw. Not too sure on the play though.

Yeah, depending on what the lands are ofc. With three fetchlands and two Cradles it's a fine hand for instance.

[B4L4]

I was floored in game 1 after Jund player tapped out for Liliana, edicting him, swung with Confidant--and the elves player didn't fetch Arbor eot to kill Liliana
His lone Dryad Arbor was already in graveyard (wasted turn 3 if i remember correctly).


Surprising plays game 2 (on the play) :

Opener : Forest - Windswept Heath - Verdant Catacombs - Deathrite Shaman - Quirion Ranger - Heritage Druid - Glimpse of Nature (nice hand !)
Turn 1 : Forest -> Deathrite Shaman (i see no benefits casting Deathrite Shaman of the basic Forest. When your hand contains 2 Fetchlands, Quirion Ranger, Heritage Druid & Glimpse of Nature, you should use a fetchland to get maximum value out of Deathrite Shaman on turn 2)

Jund turn 1 : Badland -> DrS (Shields down for a nice turn 2 glimpse chain)

Turn 2 :
Draw Heritage Druid #2
Play Windswept Heath (No more possibility of landing a Cradle)
Tap Forest -> Cast Glimpse of Nature
Fetch a basic Forest -> Cast Quirion Ranger
Draw Birchlore Ranger
Use Deathrite Shaman for mana (no more fetchs in graveyard for this turn) -> Cast Birchlore Ranger (Heritage Druid anyone?)

He was then only able to produce 2 green mana for the rest of the turn (with Birchlore Ranger), casting Heritage Druid #1 & #2 (Draws Gaea's Cradle & Wirewood Symbiote) then "bricks".

If you swap his Birchlore Ranger play for Heritage Druid, you use Quirion Ranger for an untap, tap guys for 3 green mana, cast Heritage Druid #2, Birchlore Ranger & Wirewood Symbiote & use Wirewood Symbiote to keep going (with 3 new green mana & at least 1 dude in hand + an unknown draw).


Edit : +1 venice for the fact that you should always save your land drop for a cradle until you really need to use your land drop for a forest / bayou
And yeah, the wirewood symbiote attack into tarmogoyf was reckless, there was no tricks available to shrink the goyf to a 0/1 anyway

[venice]

Besides the questionable keep in Game 1, what struck me much more is the fact that starting the Glimpse chain (G2), he first played his land for the turn, rather than tapping DRS for mana and hoping to draw into Cradle (which in fact he did), then played Birchlore over Heritage Druid preventing the chain to continue and attacking right into Tarmogoyf with Wirewood Symbiote few turns after... :/ Also, when he finally drew another Glimpse he should have just waited for another turn to get more value out of it.

[Echelon]

He was silly to play the Forest on his first turn. He should have fetched a Forest so he could tap his DRS for mana twice the following turn and then should have gone for the Heritage Druid line of play. Would have ended up with an extra mana compared to not fetching on T1.

Oh well, retrospect backseat driving isn't quite the same as playing the actual match then and there and also considerably easier.

[Shagstaman]

poor guy was probably nervous being on camera.. I noticed everything you guys did but I also saw him do the "aw crap" look after doing most of those things... he had to know he was messing up. Just nerves is all. I've been there.

edit: getting his NO thoughtseized was the main thing that got him. NoPro on turn 2 is pretty unbeatable for jund. I don't think he would've even had to glimpse iirc.. just play 2 guys, add 3, untap drs for 4, get a hydra.

[danyul]

I was there at SCG Seattle and scrubbed out, 2-4 drop, losing in pretty much every way you can lose a single game of Magic. I was mana screwed, mana flooded, faced horrible matchups, and punted where I should have known better. I basically played like shit. But Spencer and a couple other elvish locals were at the top tables for most of the tourney so I was living vicariously through them.

Spencer top 8'd the previous SCG Seattle as well as this SCG and posts in this very thread. He was undefeated going into the Top 8 and even beat his Top 8 opponent in the Swiss rounds, 2-0. The day was long and playing on camera can be nerve-wracking. It was about 9:30-10:30ish in the evening when the top 8 rounds started. People were tired and hungry. You can't expect perfect-robot-man play in those situations.

[SpencerS]

Hello fellow forest dwellers,
Shout out to fellow Elf lords Danyul and Kory?
I am the Spencer who scrubbed out on camera. I will post a report later tonight. Everything you said is correct gang , and I would have and obviously do see those lines of play. However , after 12 hours of play , little to no sleep due to travel, and only carrot sticks for food I wasn"t firing on all cylinders so to speak. I kept a bad hand , and gave Multiple punts game 2 , including the cardinal sin of not playing to win. I don't feel the need to defend myself , my competitive record speaks for itself , but I just wanted to explain why I let the forest of Fyndhorn down and I am a better player than that ;)

I fully intend on going for my third top8 and taking a trophy home in a few months .

Maybe real testing should be based around doing 6 hours of jogging then Playing test matches? ( -teammate BrettF T.E.S.)

[Shagstaman]

You did great brother! Hopefully I can put up a top 8 performance soon (my personal best is 9th with elves sigh), but for now you have that over most of us!!

look forward to the report!

[Float4WeldSlaver]

Yeah, it's easy for me to critique your play from the comfort of my office instead of on camera--and not knowing your list--too used to playing 2 Arbor that I discounted the possibility of only having 1. Congrats on your top 8!

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

Wow . . . we got moved!

[Echelon]

We kinda knew it was coming. Elves' numbers have been declining for quite some time now.

I guess we need to go and see if we can improve the list a bit more.

[Lemnear]

We kinda knew it was coming. Elves' numbers have been declining for quite some time now.

I guess we need to go and see if we can improve the list a bit more.

You can bet, development was never really stagnant, but the deck pretty much caped since months. Space is tight and the only slots to cut from now on seems to be the Nettle/Heritage combo, developing even more to a full Natural Order deck, but in fact, the bigger issue than cardchoices is the metagame between Engineered Explosives, Golgari Charm and Terminus. Not every Elves pilot has the skill and stamina to fight through those critical matchups all day. Unsuprisingly, the same decks Elves has problems with also affect my other natural choice for tourneys. I doubt that at least Elves is able to overcome the sweepers just by adjusting a few slots; it's a conceptional problem atm

[Echelon]

I think it's either that (the full-on NO-list) or go the Merfolk-route - play 8 to 12 lords and keep in the NO's as an insta-win threat. The current meta is slow enough to support that strategy.

We'd only have to come up with a good plan vs. the fast combo decks.

[Dice_Box]

NO elves are not great. I have tested it before and it's underwhelming. The lack of solid draw kills it. The power of Combo is that you can come back from nothing in a turn thanks to the draw power.

As for the Aggro lords path, never tested it. I do play a deck like it in modern and it's not half bad, but the deck is even weaker to wipes than the Combo version. Mostly because you just can't reset.

I can see cutting some of the Glimpse combo though, it's not really the point anymore. Heritage can be cut to a lesser number, Nettle I like to much to lose. In all though, I don't play much since I moved house, so while I can offer ideas, I can't test any more.

[Kayradis]

Coming back from GP Montreal,
I've seen people punt with the deck in some ways I'd never foreseen.

I was glad to explain their mistakes and such.
But to be honest, I'm glad the deck is not a DTB.
Let your little green dudes rest a bit. Then lets come out of the woodwork (see the pun there??) in strenght!

[Justin]

You can bet, development was never really stagnant, but the deck pretty much caped since months. Space is tight and the only slots to cut from now on seems to be the Nettle/Heritage combo, developing even more to a full Natural Order deck, but in fact, the bigger issue than cardchoices is the metagame between Engineered Explosives, Golgari Charm and Terminus. Not every Elves pilot has the skill and stamina to fight through those critical matchups all day. Unsuprisingly, the same decks Elves has problems with also affect my other natural choice for tourneys. I doubt that at least Elves is able to overcome the sweepers just by adjusting a few slots; it's a conceptional problem atm

Yeah, you are right. I think the arrival of True-Name Nemesis into the format hurt Elves. This is not because Elves fears playing directly against TNN, as the deck can easily outrace it. It's because the other decks in the format started playing cards to fight TNN. Those same cards (some of which you mentioned) are also very good against Elves, so there are now more people playing anti-Elf cards in their 75.

[Lemnear]

Yeah, you are right. I think the arrival of True-Name Nemesis into the format hurt Elves. This is not because Elves fears playing directly against TNN, as the deck can easily outrace it. It's because the other decks in the format started playing cards to fight TNN. Those same cards (some of which you mentioned) are also very good against Elves, so there are now more people playing anti-Elf cards in their 75.

The joke is that there are no specific anti-elves cards ... those are all anti-meta cards atm

[Shagstaman]

I hope more ppl continue to think elves suck...more free wins for me.

=)

(btw, they're wrong...easily one of the best decks in legacy and arguably the best non-brainstorm deck. Also a deck that scales directly proportionate to the user's skill and experience, which is why ppl might pass if off as a fragile engine after goldfishing around with it)

[Kayradis]

Legacy is a format rewarding the pilot over deck construction.
Elves is not an intuitive deck (despite Lemnear playing it.... ;) ). There is a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge decision tree associated with the deck.
There's no easy win.
There's no unbeatable match up.

People have such a misconception of elves....

Lemnear & Danyul. Hit me later on FB. we need to chat. This thread needs to be revamped


Edit : Censored the swearing.

[Lemnear]

Legacy is a format rewarding the pilot over deck construction.
Elves is not an intuitive deck (despite Lemnear playing it.... ;) ). There is a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge decision tree associated with the deck.
There's no easy win.
There's no unbeatable match up.

People have such a misconception of elves....

Lemnear & Danyul. Hit me later on FB. we need to chat. This thread needs to be revamped


Edit : Censored the swearing.

You could simply invite Daniel to our FB group with Julian or start a skype concerence ;). What do you mean by revamping? I guess the thread and primer is fine.

[Kayradis]

In the past 2 months, I've seen people making dumb comments or even playing the deck without a single clue how to make it work.
Im all about teaching player how to punt with style with the deck or even showing them more decision tree.

Jeez, I almost went to Jackie Lee in DC and asked her to quit the deck.
Danyul poured whatever he had left of his heart into this primer,
Julian is great at explaining the decision tree,
you have dumb ideas, and
I am amazing at bitching.

Unfortunately, seems like the good pilots are not listened to enough.
Fuck.
When Bryant Cook post on the TES thread, people know that they should simply listen to a guy that knows the deck inside out.
Im just being dumb/drunk/annoyed at the moment

[danyul]

You could simply invite Daniel to our FB group with Julian or start a skype concerence ;). What do you mean by revamping? I guess the thread and primer is fine.

I'm taking a little vacation from Facebook to retain my sanity. I recently updated the primer but if somebody wants to take it over, that's perfectly fine. I am available via twitter and email. And here of course.

[Kayradis]

I know you'll always be available for me anyway.
[Bro-mance time]

[danyul]

^.-

[Lemnear]

I know you'll always be available for me anyway.
[Bro-mance time]

Ya cheating on me, biatch!? XD

Yeah, "dumb ideas" hits it ... you have no clue what I'm doing with TES right now ... muahahahaha


Edit: maybe we should make indeed a skype conference on that. I'll record it and make a podcast out of the material...

[Kayradis]

Check the FB discusion thread.

If you were a pokemon you'd be slow poke.

[SpencerS]

Undefeated into Embarrassing Loses, A SCG SEA report. (6th)

Hello, here is a brief tournament report from SCGSEA.

Deck Choices: After a lot of testing I am opting for a 3x Mana elf build, shaving a Nettle/Druid. The reason is with BUG/JUND/DEATHBLADE/X running Deathrite I contend that it is not a reliable mana producer( Still OP, Still amazing, Still 4-of. In addition, I feel that the deck plays better magic the faster it goes, and that involves mana acceleration on turn one that doesn’t involve a risky Arbor.

I made the change last tournament, and have never looked back.

I will discuss Sideboard later.

Community: I just want to say how much I love the Legacy community. It warms my green heart to play a format where the majority is just stoked to play it! Never mind the constant theory crafting and discussion!
Cory and Danyul were there from the get go and I was honoured to be able to talk SB strats and compare notes on various matches. It makes all the difference in attitude knowing you are cheering for a “team”.

Special Props to Danyul who actually went to get me food and water during top8.

Extra Props to all my opponents who were scholars, gentlemen and above all actually smiled and had fun.

Deck.



4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Nettle Sentinel
3 Heritage Druid
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Glimpse of Nature
1 Viridian Shaman
4 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Birchlore Rangers
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
1 Llanowar Elves
4 Gaea's Cradle
3 Natural Order
4 Quirion Ranger
2 Fyndhorn Elves
2 Bayou

Sideboard
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Progenitus
4 Thoughtseize
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Pithing Needle
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Choke
1 Natural Order



Omnitell-Zachary 1-0

Game1: I have a fetch into DRS, he plays basic island. We both ramp, I play Glimpse, he FOW pitches cunning wish and I put him on High Tide. I go for a hardcast Hoof to seal G1

SB: (I was wrong, he was omni fortunately same plan)
+4 Thoughtseize +1 Choke +1 Ruric Thar +1 Teeg, -2 Visionary -3 Glimpse -1 Viridian Shaman -1Craterhoof

Game2: Back to back thoughtsiezes reveal a show and tell emrakul hand that I strip of any value. I beat him down with Nettle and a Gaddock.
Merfolk-Tyler 2-0

Game1: Although he assembles quite a few fish, I assemble best friends combo to Fog of War and cycle through cards until I have enough mana to hardcast a hoof and natural order after he FOW’s

SB: +1NO +1Pro +1Needle -1 Ooze -1Glimpse -1 Heritage

Game2: I turn 2 NO-Pro.

Dredge-Geoff 3-0

Game1: Luckily I had a sick read (from the desire to draw)and mulled to turn one DRS. And from there was able to turn that into a snap for dryad arbor to block Ichorid and remove bridges, with the DRS eating dredgers.

SB -1 Viridian +1 Decay

Game2: we go back and forth with me maintaining an Ooze facing down an army of zombies. It took quite a few turns to pull out. I saw some sickening shoals, which caused me to tank during a math calculation and then punt as witnessed by Danyul that led to me passing a risky turn, luckily he didn’t have me on the swing ( I go to 2 life with a double ooze activation).

Deathblade –Eric 4-0

Game1: I lose some early resources to swords, he fetched up a jitte and luckily I could snap for arbor and GSZ for Quirion to fog until my board presence was enough to NO

SB ( Stupid Deathblade plays so many one-ofs you don’t know what to play around games 2-3) +1No +1 Pro +1 Needle -1 Heritage -2 Glimpse

Game2: I lose to a great play of a snapcaster ambushing a early wirewood and from there a batterskull takes the game.

Game3: We trade early resources, I try to bait a FOW with a glimpse, he brainstorms and lets it resolve, my other card is NO so I go for PRO. He ponders for wrath a couple times and Hydra gets there.

RUG-Nathan -5-0

Game1: After he stifles a wirewood symbiote trigger (protecting quirion form bolt) he loses to board presence

SB: +1Choke +1NO +1PRO +2 Abrupt Decay -2 Glimpse -1 Viridian -1 Heritage -1 Craterhoof

Game2: I bait out the daze and FOW with Choke and Glimpse and am able to NO-PRO from a arbor.

Miracles- Adam 6-0

Game1: I manage a turn two glimpse chain for massive board, he doesn’t have terminus.

SB +1 Choke +4 Thoughtseize, +3Abrupt Decay. +1 Needle -2 Hertiage -3 Glimpse -3 Visionary -1 Shaman

Game2: I get locked out.

Game3: I wait for him to tap out to top and swords, then land a choke.

Jund-Robert 7-0 ( Who eventually gets revenge in top8)

Game1: I turn two a Glimpse chain into a lethal Hoof.

SB +1NO +1PRO -1Glimpse -1 Shaman

Game 2: I develop a board that trades for resources until I can NO-Pro with a snap for arbor.

Double ID into top 8… However, instead of taking this time to eat I fret about how to get home to Canada and spend it stressing and making various emails.


I explained myself earlier. Mental fatigue is real. Game one keep was super loose, however I had this image from last top 8 of mulling to 4 when presented with a similar hand. Should never let past interactions affect your judgement. Game 2 was two critical punts, the first was the heritage over birchlore (derp) the second was not waiting a turn to glimpse.

Oh well ;) Next time.

Despite what the commentators say , I feel Jund is a fine matchup and I would play it any time.

As for sideboard, I really liked Choke. I experimented with swan song in the side events and wasn’t a fan, it wasn’t proactive enough. I didn’t like Teeg that much (shocker). I would go for second needle or null rod over him. If I had played more combo I would have been more inclined to like Ruric Thar, having said that he was pretty weak here and I would like to test Worldspine Worm.

As for maindeck, I really hate viridian shaman main. I know it’s a tutororable answer to jitte game one, however I always feel that it is a waste of resources when you could just get a symbiote. I don’t want to move him to the SB though, so maindeck he will stay until I really want the 4th nettle sentinel.

[Lemnear]

Check the FB discusion thread.

If you were a pokemon you'd be slow poke.

FYI, i deactivated push-messages about FB, WhatsApp and Co. on my smartphone. Otherwise I would get nuts, by all the chats running

[Purp]

Hello all,

I am currently a burn player trying to optimize my list. I could either run 3 Searing Blaze or 3 Pyroclasm in the SB. Does a t3 Pryclasm really swing the match into my favor? I know that you guys can win the race.

[Benjammn]

Hello all,

I am currently a burn player trying to optimize my list. I could either run 3 Searing Blaze or 3 Pyroclasm in the SB. Does a t3 Pryclasm really swing the match into my favor? I know that you guys can win the race.

Pyroclasm slows us down more than Searing Blaze. Just watch out for Ruric Thar postboard... Elves players with him in the side are going to try to resolve NO ASAP.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

[dte]

Undefeated into Embarrassing Loses, A SCG SEA report. (6th)


4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Nettle Sentinel
3 Heritage Druid
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Glimpse of Nature
1 Viridian Shaman
4 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Birchlore Rangers
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
1 Llanowar Elves
4 Gaea's Cradle
3 Natural Order
4 Quirion Ranger
2 Fyndhorn Elves
2 Bayou

Sideboard
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Progenitus
4 Thoughtseize
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Pithing Needle
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Choke
1 Natural Order




Miracles- Adam 6-0

Game1: I manage a turn two glimpse chain for massive board, he doesn’t have terminus.

SB +1 Choke +4 Thoughtseize, +3Abrupt Decay. +1 Needle -2 Hertiage -3 Glimpse -3 Visionary -1 Shaman

Game2: I get locked out.

Game3: I wait for him to tap out to top and swords, then land a choke.


First of all congrats!
It's a nice performance :)

I have a question about your miracle SB:
Why not add +1 proge -1 hoof to get choice at each NO?
why removing visionary and so many glimpse? I will have -1 fetch // -1 Nettle // -2 seize (OTD) // for +2 visio (OTD) and +3visio +1 glimpse (OTP)

Congrats!

[nudon]

@Spencer: Congrats on the finish! I know it's tough to play through fatigue so don't sweat the top8. I noticed you included gaddock teeg in your board but didn't bring him in against miracles. Is this because of the previous discussion regarding karakas or was this just an oversight?

[okazakc]

Hey all this Cory Okazaki lurking the forests of Bellingham. Shout out to Spenser for his top 8 and making us proud. I'm honored to have sat down and spoke sideboards together. real pleasure. And shout out to Daniel for all the help and the collaborations master Jedi nguyen. Let our trio be strong next scg. Northwest elves unite.
@SpencerS

[SpencerS]

@Spencer: Congrats on the finish! I know it's tough to play through fatigue so don't sweat the top8. I noticed you included gaddock teeg in your board but didn't bring him in against miracles. Is this because of the previous discussion regarding karakas or was this just an oversight?


First of all congrats!
It's a nice performance :)

I have a question about your miracle SB:
Why not add +1 proge -1 hoof to get choice at each NO?
why removing visionary and so many glimpse? I will have -1 fetch // -1 Nettle // -2 seize (OTD) // for +2 visio (OTD) and +3visio +1 glimpse (OTP)

Congrats!


He was playing a variant with Snapcaster mage, access to that much removal + Karakas was too much.

Miracles is a race for damage in my opinion. Visionary and glimpse aren't as favourable as going for damage/disruption. I re-sided for game three with Prog, when I was on the play. I often will pull the trigger on a hoof that isn't even lethal ( for example a 3 creature, only hoof attack for 9) just to get dmg in. You have to make them have answers and just keep pushing. However, if you take the time to develop a board usually you lose. Just one theory.

[Julian23]

Streaming the Legacy DE with Elves! Join us at http://twitch.tv/itsJulian!

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

Streaming the Legacy DE with Elves! Join us at http://twitch.tv/itsJulian!

Nice Stream, Julian. Bummer about that last game against miracles. Sometimes, they just have our number.

It's kind of a shame that your streams don't stick around on twitch. They seem to fade after a few days, which is a bummer. The two that most consistently stick around are your win against the turn 2 Grislebrand and the one where you play the Glimpse music.

[okazakc]

Today I had the opportunity to play in a legacy tournament in Bellingham, Wa for duels. I had a couple of friends from Seattle come to join in the battle. David Bauman being one of them (2nd place SCG seattle 2014)

It was a small tournament lasting 4 rounds with a cut to top 8.
We had hoped for a lot more but with SCG being last weekend we ran into people with busy schedules.

The list I was running:

Elves!

4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Nettle Sentinel
3 Heritage Druid
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Glimpse of Nature
1 Viridian Shaman
4 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Birchlore Rangers
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
1 Llanowar Elves
4 Gaea's Cradle
3 Natural Order
4 Quirion Ranger
2 Elvish mystic
2 Bayou

Sideboard
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Progenitus
2 Thoughtseize
2 cabal therapy
1 null rod
2 Pithing Needle
2 Choke
1 Natural Order


]Round 1: BUG delver
I find this match-up not terrible it can definitely go both ways but I am positive when it comes to playing against this deck.

Game 1- I was able to combo a glimpse but have it end in a field of elves with three cards in hand, 1 being natural order. I passed and he used hymn to tourach to hit my natural order out of my hand. two turns passed and he didnt flip his delver when I drew my natural order and brought the "lakes of tomorrow"

Game 2- I went to 5 and couldnt beat the turn 2 liliana with a board state and almost no cards in hand by this point.

1-0

Round 2 - UWR Delver

Game 1- He had 4 stoneforge mystics in hand and I was able to combo off. there was virtually no interaction game 1. lucky me.

Game 2- much like my first round I went to five. I Kept a one lander with deathrite and my opponent road a lightning bolt all the way to victory.

Game 3- I turn one played nettle sentinel and then started the beats including a scooze. He eventually didnt have an answer to my presence of pesky elves and fell.

2-0

Round 3: Burn

We intentionally drew and I took a break to get some food

2-0-1

Round 4: 12 post

My opponent wanted to play it out in order get a good seed.

Game 1- I turn three off a glimpse turn two cast natural order into craterhoof behemoth

Game 2- Ended just as bad for him in game one but a turn later

3-0-1

Top *:
Elves
merfolk
Burn
Burn
The rock (ish)
DNT
UWR Delver
12 Post

I was paired against The rock player but this deck was a home brew with main board plagues and explosives. It was also playing Glissa the trader that I couldn't get past with explosives.
I won Game 1 but went on to lose in 3


I was on camera round 2 against UWR Delver and if you care to watch it will be up tomorrow night at this webpage below
http://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_jHQJ53ynGv4niwmrUlweg

thank you for taking the time to look at my report and have a good day

Cory Okazaki

[freyer]

Hello everyone,
First at all thank you !! for all your interesting post about my lovely elves (yes my english suck :D )
I'm new here , in fact i read this topic for more than 9 months but i never find the courage for posting something. cause my understanding of this deck and the game generally is poor. But next week i want to go for my first tournament before the trial for annecy in one month(yeah my chance is realy low but HEY it's a game :) ) .
I want to play this list

2 Bayou
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
4 Gaea's Cradle
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Birchlore Rangers
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Heritage Druid
1 Llanowar Elves
3 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Viridian Shaman
4 Natural Order
2 Craterhoof Behemoth

#60
Sideboard:

3 Cabal Therapy
1 Pithing Needle
3 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Choke
1 --------------free slot !!!!
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Progenitus

1. i would like your feedback about my list. the meta is lot of delver.
2. i'm lost about the sideboarding. The Julian article about sideboarding don't play the same card. Maybe it's me, but i have huge problems for see the good and the bad sidebording options :s
3. i have also some problem for use cabal. i never name the good card.

If some of you can give advice i would be so happy :P

Anyway again thank you for all this knowledge shared here :)

[Float4WeldSlaver]

I've found sideboarding to be pretty simple--I'm generally taking out some number and combination of Glimpses, Heritage Druid(s), and/or Nettle Sentinel(s). The idea being that diluting your deck with answers/discard/hate reduces your ability to combo anyways, so Glimpse becomes less effective.

A card you might want to test in your open sb slot for your meta is Meekstone--it's very solid vs the flavors of delver.

[Zombie]

3 manadorks, 8 fetches has to be wrong. -1 dork, +1 fetch plz.

Apart from that, 1 Needle just seems way too little and I don't like Ruric in the board. He's maindeck or bust material IMO.

With sideboarding, try to think what is bad in the matchup - in fast matchups, Symbiote/Visionary is almost always too slow and you should probably go down to 1 of each. In matchups that constrict our resources a lot, like Delver and Pox, Nettle Sentinel and especially Heritage Druid tend to be bad because they require a lot of resources to become broken, so you board some out and focus on answers and the more slow, grindy cards like Symbiote+Visionary and Deathrite Shaman. The alternative plan for those matches is loading up on discard instead of board disruption, going up to 4 NO and just forcing the Progenitus through, because that's often GG. See what works for you. Just make sure you have a plan and commit to it, because the deck can't support 4NO, Glimpse, Symbiote+Visionary and an answer suite all at the same time, one has to be cut.
If you're boarding in a lot of spells, cutting down on Glimpse makes sense because it's power goes down, but answers+beats is a very valid strategy.

[Lemnear]

I've found sideboarding to be pretty simple--I'm generally taking out some number and combination of Glimpses, Heritage Druid(s), and/or Nettle Sentinel(s). The idea being that diluting your deck with answers/discard/hate reduces your ability to combo anyways, so Glimpse becomes less effective.

A card you might want to test in your open sb slot for your meta is Meekstone--it's very solid vs the flavors of delver.

Meekstone is explored territory in this thread; maybe about 2 pages back.

Just seeing the combo in terms of Glimpse and suggest boarding it out for that reason is wrong. The card is often a green Ancestral Recall and better even without Nettle/Hertiage in play. It draws you into new creatures and NO in a world of sweepers. It's not that you board out a significant amount of creatures.

[D@N]

Ive been running just -1 fetch as well and havent noticed much of a difference either it may be wrong but its better then fooding out, esp. on glimpse chains.

[SpencerS]

[QUOTE=Zombie;801220]3 manadorks, 8 fetches has to be wrong. -1 dork, +1 fetch plz.

Once you go 3 dorks, you will never go back. Superior in all the deathrite mirrors in my opinion, and enables more fast hands that don't involve GSZ-0

[okazakc]

[QUOTE=Zombie;801220]3 manadorks, 8 fetches has to be wrong. -1 dork, +1 fetch plz.

Once you go 3 dorks, you will never go back. Superior in all the deathrite mirrors in my opinion, and enables more fast hands that don't involve GSZ-0

It also increases your original 7 To be strong hands.
I would have dead hands but now I have a strong lead from the get go. GSz for zero always feels wrong. You just can become to vulnerable and if by chance you go late game you might need that arbor for defense with the ranger. Throwing it out turn 1 asks for it to die.
I will never go back

[Julian23]

I hope this is not getting old for you guys, but I just won the Legacy sideevent of GP Vienna.

Yes, that's a threepeat - Paris, Barcelona and Vienna.

:smile: :smile: :smile:

[Pureparkour]

I hope this is not getting old for you guys, but I just won the Legacy sideevent of GP Vienna.

Yes, that's a threepeat - Paris, Barcelona and Vienna.

:smile: :smile: :smile:

GZ!!!!!

same list as last time? with the Ruric Thar? lol at finding it on stream.

[andrebonotto]

I hope this is not getting old for you guys, but I just won the Legacy sideevent of GP Vienna.

Yes, that's a threepeat - Paris, Barcelona and Vienna.

:smile: :smile: :smile:

Wow, congrats!

You, sir, is great inspiration for all of us!

[freyer]

I've found sideboarding to be pretty simple--I'm generally taking out some number and combination of Glimpses, Heritage Druid(s), and/or Nettle Sentinel(s). The idea being that diluting your deck with answers/discard/hate reduces your ability to combo anyways, so Glimpse becomes less effective.

A card you might want to test in your open sb slot for your meta is Meekstone--it's very solid vs the flavors of delver.


With sideboarding, try to think what is bad in the matchup - in fast matchups, Symbiote/Visionary is almost always too slow and you should probably go down to 1 of each. In matchups that constrict our resources a lot, like Delver and Pox, Nettle Sentinel and especially Heritage Druid tend to be bad because they require a lot of resources to become broken. The alternative plan for those matches is going down on NOs and trying to grind them out bigtime. See what works for you. Just make sure you have a plan and commit to it, because the deck can't support NO, Glimpse, Symbiote+Visionary and answers all at the same time, one has to be cut.
If you're boarding in a lot of spells, cutting down on Glimpse makes sense because it's power goes down, but answers+beats is a very valid strategy.

Maybe i never read this before, but your explanation look like a new beginning to me :)

I still play 8 fetch and 3 mana creature. I play often again a rug delver who kill my Drs asap.
I change to +1 taiga +1 rurik -1 viridian shaman -1 NO running 3 now



Sideboard:

3 Cabal Therapy
2 Pithing Needle
2 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Gaddock Teeg => 1 meekstone
1 Null Rod
1 Choke
1 Natural Order
1 Progenitus



I'm not sure for gaddock teeg. i can't resume all your point of view for him or again him.
Maybe my sideboard is not anymore balance.

Anyway thx for your feedback :)

And julian GG you show to the world elves are not dead yet :D

[nudon]

I finished 7-2 (23/375; $100) in my first SCG(LA) event yesterday with the following list. It would have been nice to make top8 but not bad for first time. :smile:

4 Elvish Visionary
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Birchlore Rangers
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Viridian Shaman
2 Craterhoof Behemoth

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order

2 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Gaea's Cradle

4 Cabal Therapy
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
2 Thoughtseize
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
2 Pithing Needle
3 Abrupt Decay

Here's a real quick summary of the match-ups:

Round 1: Team America 2-0 (1-0)
Game 1 - Gsz for 8 ftw.
Game 2 - Glimpse combo into gsz for 8.

Round 2: Jund 2-0 (2-0)
Game 1 - Glimpse combo.
Game 2 - NO->hoof.

Round 3: Belcher 0-2 (2-1)
Game 1 - He goes first and puts 14 goblins onto the table...
Game 2 - I keep a shaky 6 card hand including viridian shaman. In hindsight, I probably should have went down to 5.

Round 4: Reanimator 1-2 (2-2)
Game 1 - He goes first and has Elesh Norn on turn 2.
Game 2 - I rip 2 entombs and 2 careful studies out of his hand while later tutoring for ooze via gsz. He shows in Empyrial Archangel which I kill with a non-lethal NO->craterhoof. I name exhume off my third cabal therapy but he reveals misty rainforest. He rips a exhume off the top to bring back the archangel. I follow by ripping a gsz and tutor for DRS. DRS + quirion untaps outraces the archangel. What a game!
Game 3 - He gets griselbrand on turn 1 so I try to race. Unfortunately, he echoing truths my nettle sentinels as I'm about to attack for lethal.

Round 5: D&T 2-1 (3-2)
Game 1 - I hard-cast craterhoof for lethal.
Game 2 - He plays canonist, jitte, and cataclysm.
Game 3 - Non-lethal NO->hoof (prog in hand) but hoof gets there.

Round 6: American Delver 2-1 (4-2)
Game 1 - NO->hoof.
Game 2 - He has delver with plenty of disruption.
Game 3 - My glimpse for value on turn 2 causes him to name NO for his meddling mage. I follow up with a second glimpse into gsz for 8 on turn 3.

Round 7: Miracle Control 2-0 (5-2); Against Ricky Sidher (runner-up in standard open)
Game 1 - First NO gets forced but second one on following turn gets through.
Game 2 - He completely devastates my board with terminus. He plays jace while I have 2 1/1s on the board. He fateseals me while I attack his jace and we play draw-go for 5+ turns. I eventually get a needle to stick on his top and have decay ready for his counterbalance. I finally get a glimpse to stick as well and build up card advantage. He e-tutors for a moat but I NO->birchlore and drain him down with DRS + quirion ranger untaps.

Round 8: Burn 2-1 (6-2)
Game 1 - I steal the game (facing lethal next turn) by glimpse combo out of nowhere with nothing but a quirion ranger and 1 land in play.
Game 2 - 3 goblin guides by turn 2 is too fast for me.
Game 3 - I flood like crazy but manage to glimpse combo with nothing but a llanowar and a few lands in play.

Round 9: D&T w/ black splash 2-0 (7-2)
Game 1 - Glimpse combo into NO->hoof.
Game 2 - NO->prog.

The sideboard felt fine since all of the cards were brought in at one point. It was unfortunate I had to face belcher and reanimator in back-to-back rounds. I didn't mind reanimator that much since we have the tools for beating them despite the bad match-up. Belcher is another story.

[Julian23]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXpaGLOh2kg&list=PLUf2klb44rJK4LYcckTas01NC9d9jcJOU

Because some of you might have missed it on Twitter, here's a short interview after winning the tournament.

There should also be a short part about me interviewing 13-year old Fabian before that. :smile:

[Shagstaman]

we have the same 75 nudon... =) good to hear you did well. Dat belcher tho.. lol the belcher guy gets us all from time to time. Some people truly love trolling and variance.

[andrebonotto]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXpaGLOh2kg&list=PLUf2klb44rJK4LYcckTas01NC9d9jcJOU

Because some of you might have missed it on Twitter, here's a short interview after winning the tournament.

There should also be a short part about me interviewing 13-year old Fabian before that. :smile:

Pretty cool! :cool:

Keep up the good work.

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

Right on, Julian. That's fantastic. Third time is a charm. And now you've got the whole interviewer thing happening as well. Did they get any of your games on a stream? If anyone has links, please post them.

[th3 w1z4rd]

Just beat a guy on cockatrice who played turn 1 Blood Moon on the play lol. I had one basic forest in my opening hand and never drew another one, but Birchlore Rangers and Nettle Sentinel best friend teamed to get some reinforcements and then I Zenithed for a 1-of Priest of Titania. Nice Blood Moon.

[Kayradis]

I hope this is not getting old for you guys, but I just won the Legacy sideevent of GP Vienna.

Yes, that's a threepeat - Paris, Barcelona and Vienna.

:smile: :smile: :smile:

Everytime Julian walks into a tournament people are suddenly like that....

http://i.imgur.com/oyPFqcv.gif

[AznSeal]

I just want to post one of the most insane plays I did today one Elves.

It was game 2 against Aluren. I forgot what I SBed out/in but I wasn't concerned because Aluren is a really easy matchup. I was on the play.

Opponent Turn 1: Land, DRS, go.
My Turn 1: Bayou, GZS for 0, Dryad Arbor, go.

Opponent Turn 2: Land, Baleful Strix, attack for 1 with DRS, go.
My turn 2: Tap Dryad Arbor for Quirion Ranger, tap bayou for DRS, use Quirion Ranger to bounce Bayou to untap Dryad Arbor, play Heritage Druid with Dryad Arbor, tap 3 elves for 3 mana, use 1 mana for wirewood symbiote (GG floating), replay bayou, tap bayou (GGG floating), play Elvish visionary (G floating), use wirewood to bounce quirion ranger to untap Dryad Arbor, tap Dryad Arbor (GG floating), play Quirion ranger (G floating, use quirion ranger to untap Dryad arbor, bouncing Bayou, tab Dryad Arbor (GG floating), play second Elvish Visionary (no mana floating), i forgot the rest but I did some other Heritage Druid shenanigans to have like a million elves and just won. I just hardcast craterhoof the next turn.

This just made me realize the ridiculous interactions between Quirion Ranger, Wirewood Symbiote, and Dryad Arbor. Also, Aluren is reaaaaalllllllyyyy bad against elves.

Anyways this time last year there was no way I'd figure out this interaction. When I first started elves, all of my plays were really straight forward (like Symbiote/Visionar, Heritage/Nettle/random elf, etc but thanks to this thread and Julian's stream, i've learned all of these new plays :D

Also, sideboarding is still hard. Any tips on what to generally SB in against which matchups?

Specifically Miracles, DnT, RUG Delver, BUG Delver, UWr Delver, generic combo decks, lands, the mirror.

[B4L4]

I need the help of elves mages to clear my mind of a doubt.

I just realized that i was unsure about how to properly resolve a Green Sun's Zenith grabbing an Elvish Visionary. To be more specific, is the Green Sun's Zenith already shuffled back when the draw triggers resolves ? I have always performed the draw before the 2nd Green Sun's Zenith shuffle, but i may be wrong.

[Float4WeldSlaver]

Things don't happen in the middle of spells resolving. The Zenith puts the Visionary into play, its ETB trigger goes on the stack, and resolves when the Zenith finishes resolving. So you draw after the shuffle.

[Julian23]

Streaming the Legacy DE with Elves! Join us at http://twitch.tv/itsJulian :cool:

[Zombie]

3 manadorks, 8 fetches has to be wrong. -1 dork, +1 fetch plz.

Apart from that, 1 Needle just seems way too little and I don't like Ruric in the board. He's maindeck or bust material IMO.

With sideboarding, try to think what is bad in the matchup - in fast matchups, Symbiote/Visionary is almost always too slow and you should probably go down to 1 of each. In matchups that constrict our resources a lot, like Delver and Pox, Nettle Sentinel and especially Heritage Druid tend to be bad because they require a lot of resources to become broken, so you board some out and focus on answers and the more slow, grindy cards like Symbiote+Visionary and Deathrite Shaman. The alternative plan for those matches is loading up on discard instead of board disruption, going up to 4 NO and just forcing the Progenitus through, because that's often GG. See what works for you. Just make sure you have a plan and commit to it, because the deck can't support 4NO, Glimpse, Symbiote+Visionary and an answer suite all at the same time, one has to be cut.
If you're boarding in a lot of spells, cutting down on Glimpse (1-2 out max) can make sense because it's power goes down, but answers+beats is a very valid strategy. Still, useless-in-the-matchup creatures always go out before spells do.

Corrected a couple errors and brainfarts in the SBing nutshell.

[Zombie]

Things don't happen in the middle of spells resolving. The Zenith puts the Visionary into play, its ETB trigger goes on the stack, and resolves when the Zenith finishes resolving. So you draw after the shuffle.

?

Proper order should be:

GSZ starts resolving, search Visionary, put it into play. Shuffle deck. THEN the game notices that there's a trigger that should happen, and it and others (like Nettle triggers) are put onto the stack in APNAP order. Then start resolving triggers.

[Koby]

?

Proper order should be:

Cast GSZ
Nettle Sentinel(s) trigger and resolve

GSZ starts resolving, search Visionary, put it into play. Shuffle deck. THEN shuffle GSZ into the deck, THEN the game notices that there's a trigger that should happen, and it and others (like Nettle triggers) are put onto the stack in APNAP order. Then start resolving triggers.

Fixed that for you. Because, technically that's what you should be doing. :D
(Yes, you can shortcut this with one shuffle)

[Zombie]

I blame the lack of coffee in my bloodstream. Thank you for correcting that piece of abject braindeath.

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

We seem to be experiencing a little down time. With that in mind, I thought it might be an interesting project to think about sideboarding against some decks Julian didn't mention in his superb sideboarding overview.

Here are some decks that still have a pulse and may be worth for considering sideboarding approaches

43 Lands/Turbo-Depths
Affinity
Bant
Belcher
Burn
Canadian Thresh
Deathblade/Stoneblade
Goblins
High Tide
Landstill
MUD
Nic Fit
Team America
Turbo Eldrazi
Zoo

[AznSeal]

We seem to be experiencing a little down time. With that in mind, I thought it might be an interesting project to think about sideboarding against some decks Julian didn't mention in his superb sideboarding overview.

Here are some decks that still have a pulse and may be worth for considering sideboarding approaches

43 Lands/Turbo-Depths
Affinity
Bant
Belcher
Burn
Canadian Thresh
Deathblade/Stoneblade
Goblins
High Tide
Landstill
MUD
Nic Fit
Team America
Turbo Eldrazi
Zoo

I know against Zoo and Canadian Threshold, I SB out some number of glimpse, nettle sentinel, and heritage druids for NO+Progenitus+Abrupt Decays. This is because their burn makes it hard to establish a board presence to hoof off.

[Shagstaman]

the double shuffle off gsz was an anomalous card design... I always just place gsz back into my library as I shuffle to find the dude. No one has ever said anything and if they did I'd probably call them out in front of their peers for being a tool.

Any judge in their right mind would recognize this as shortcutting and allow it.

Also.....I lost to two combo decks in the last open.. I love my matchup vs fair decks but it might be time to go back to 7 discard. I feel like discard, abrupt decay, and NoPro are the only real necessary sb cards. We have everything else main..

[jarvisyu]

Went to SCG Charlotte Invitational.

I played U/W/r Miracles in the Legacy portion for it, and decided I didn't really want to lose to all of the BUG decks again in the Legacy Open, so I went back to the Elves:

r1: 2-0 over shardless
r2: 2-0 over UB Tezzeret
r3: 1-2 vs 74 card elves mirror (i sent this guy my list a few days ago)
r4: 1-2 vs pfire jund
r5: 2-1 over reid playing UW Miracles
r6: 2-1 over D+T
r7: 2-0 over pfire jund
r8: 2-0 over deathblade
r9: 2-0 over D+T (with mishra's factory)

played this list:

//20
9 Green Fetchlands
3 Forest
2 Bayou
2 Dryad Arbor
4 Gaea's Cradle

//29
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Llanowar Elves
2 Heritage Druid
2 Birchlore Rangers
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Viridian Shaman
2 Craterhoof Behemoth

//11
4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Natural Order
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Sideboard
2 Krosan Grip
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Progenitus
4 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Natural Order

Krosan Grip was a response to the larger number of humilities that I was expecting due to a lot of good players choosing U/W or U/W/R miracles. White splash is pretty unnecessary if you decide to play Krosan Grip, IMHO, and it means you can play a 3rd basic forest versus wasteland / blood moon decks.

[Shagstaman]

lol jarvis I played 3 forest and kgrip in the board as well... damn humility!

[jarvisyu]

lol jarvis I played 3 forest and kgrip in the board as well... damn humility!

i forgot, what's your name?

[okazakc]

anyone going to the ck ptq side event on the 12th?

[Shagstaman]

James Hess =)

[trevaftw]

So my shop is hosting a Super SCG IQ this saturday and with a turn out of 43 people last time we're expecting the same if not more for this event. I am expecting a decent portion to be Delver and Combo. I need some input on my 75. I feel fairly comfortable with the main board, but the sideboard is where I could use the most help.

Creatures - 30
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
1 birchlore Rangers
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Elvish Mystic
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Craterhoof Behemoth

Spells - 12
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Glimpse of nature
4 natural Order

Lands - 18
9 green fetches
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
2 Forest
4 Gaea's Cradle

Sideboard - 15
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Krosan Grip
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Worldspine Wurm
1 Viridian Shaman

This is what I normally play. I think for Saturday I might take out Elvish Mystic from the main and put in Viridian Shaman (which opens up a sideboard slot). Also, I have never played with two dryad arbors before, is it owrth taking out the fyndhorn elves for a second arbor? Or even a second land, since lately 14 initial mana sources hasn't been treating my the best.

WRT the sideboard, my main hate against combo decks have been my 7 discard and ruric thar. Lately though I've been running into more leyine of sanctity so my discard just gets blanked. I am unsure if there will be any fast combo (TES, Charbelcher, etc.) so I am not sure if I should take out the 3 Duress for 3 Mindbreak Trap or 3 Swan Song. Also because I have moved Viridian Shaman main I will have one more SB slot open but I don't know what to put.

Thoughts are much appreciated :)

[Absolutflipz]

Went to SCG Charlotte Invitational.

I played U/W/r Miracles in the Legacy portion for it, and decided I didn't really want to lose to all of the BUG decks again in the Legacy Open, so I went back to the Elves:

r1: 2-0 over shardless
r2: 2-0 over UB Tezzeret
r3: 1-2 vs 74 card elves mirror (i sent this guy my list a few days ago)
r4: 1-2 vs pfire jund
r5: 2-1 over reid playing UW Miracles
r6: 2-1 over D+T
r7: 2-0 over pfire jund
r8: 2-0 over deathblade
r9: 2-0 over D+T (with mishra's factory)

played this list:

//20
9 Green Fetchlands
3 Forest
2 Bayou
2 Dryad Arbor
4 Gaea's Cradle

//29
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Llanowar Elves
2 Heritage Druid
2 Birchlore Rangers
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Viridian Shaman
2 Craterhoof Behemoth

//11
4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Natural Order
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Sideboard
2 Krosan Grip
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Progenitus
4 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Natural Order

Krosan Grip was a response to the larger number of humilities that I was expecting due to a lot of good players choosing U/W or U/W/R miracles. White splash is pretty unnecessary if you decide to play Krosan Grip, IMHO, and it means you can play a 3rd basic forest versus wasteland / blood moon decks.

Humility still seems like such a narrowly-played 1-of card (even if Miracles builds are hot, aka maybe 8% of the field), in which I don't think you're going to win games that play out in such fashion where you're relying on reactionary 3mana grips to deal with a potential Humility.

I personally think replacing those with Pithing Needles goes a lot further to helping the matchup, as locking them out of Top (and secondarily, Jace) goes a lot further and more efficiently to stopping their entire plan, including handicapping their ability to find said Humility (and obv. terminus, verdict, etc..). Needles also have utility in other match-ups, whereas Krosan Grip may have some, but not of the same level.

[andrebonotto]

Greetings, fellow elves,

After some long months of "retirement", last sunday I finally could put my Elves deck to some work.

I had some high hopes, since just a few days before, it was "my twenty-ninth name day feast" (27th, March), so I was feeling specially blessed by Gaea (http://magiccards.info/scans/en/arena/38.jpg). :cool:

It was a 6 round, 55 man tournament.

My matches were:


R1) 2 x 1 vs UW STONEBLADE
R2) 2 x 0 vs D&T
R3) 2 x 0 vs BUG DELVER
R4) 2 x 0 vs MERFOLK
R5) 2 x 0 vs S&T
R6) 1 x 1 vs RUG DELVER

Results: 5-0-1 ==> 16 pts ==> 1st place ! \o/ :cool:


TOP 8) 2 x 0 vs UWr MIRACLES-THOPTER-STONEFORGE (?)
TOP 4) 1 x 2 vs POX

I had never played against Pox before. I didn't even know some of the cards that go into the deck (e.g.: Night of Souls' Betrayal?! Really !?!).
This, coupled with me being tired as hell, facilitated me making some awkward misplays (e.g.: GSZ > Quirion Ranger, while that hateful enchantment was in play), and sub-optimal sideboarding (according to my opponent, I should have loaded the full discard package, which I didn't).

Well, I'll try to be a little more prepared for that next time... Any particular tips for this MU?


The good part is that with the prize money from my Swiss finish I was able to get some (overpriced) Modern fetch-lands and shocklands. I guess I'm building a Modern UR Storm deck now :laugh:


http://i940.photobucket.com/albums/ad245/andrebonotto/MTG/2014-03-30-LQ2K-PREMIO.jpg~original

It was a nice birthday present! :laugh:

Regards,

- André




P.S.1: I posted a long and "imaginative" report of this tournament on the brazilian forum, LigaMagic.
If anyone reads Portuguese (or don't mind relying on Google Translator), feel free to take a look (http://www.ligamagic.com.br/?view=blog/viewPost&fid=4424). I'm just too tired to try to translate that into english and post here...


P.S.2: It's half past midnight here. I desperately need some sleep... Tomorrow (or the day after) I'll try to keep up with the previous messages (and the next ones) on the thread. I just wanted to post this here ASAP, before moving on to do other things...

[Shagstaman]

Humility still seems like such a narrowly-played 1-of card (even if Miracles builds are hot, aka maybe 8% of the field), in which I don't think you're going to win games that play out in such fashion where you're relying on reactionary 3mana grips to deal with a potential Humility.

I personally think replacing those with Pithing Needles goes a lot further to helping the matchup, as locking them out of Top (and secondarily, Jace) goes a lot further and more efficiently to stopping their entire plan, including handicapping their ability to find said Humility (and obv. terminus, verdict, etc..). Needles also have utility in other match-ups, whereas Krosan Grip may have some, but not of the same level.

I don't think you understand HOW MANY Humilities were being played.. Me and Jarvis came to the same conclusion despite not having talked about it...lol Almost every miracles player had it in their 75, and there were even a handful of BW, Junk, and Stoneblade style decks that were playing it. I lost to a BW tokens deck with Humility in the main at the invitational...and I am the type of person that hates being COLD to a single card...so I replaced the null rod with kgrip (never got to cast null rod, so I can't speak to its efficacy, as opposed to grip which has obvious applications in some of our worst matchups). I was running needles too btw.. =)

[Dice_Box]

the double shuffle off gsz was an anomalous card design... I always just place gsz back into my library as I shuffle to find the dude. No one has ever said anything and if they did I'd probably call them out in front of their peers for being a tool.

Any judge in their right mind would recognize this as shortcutting and allow it.
While this is true, the card needed to be worded the way it is. If someone hijacks the spell and it was worded to make you shuffle only one time, they would shuffle the card into their library not you into yours or they would get to look for a creature and not shuffle at all. The effect needs to trigger twice to get around these issues.

[Shagstaman]

that would be hilarious...is it sad that I kinda wish it worked that way??

[Julian23]

that would be hilarious...is it sad that I kinda wish it worked that way??

Welcome to Standard, where everyone and his mother plays Neightveil Specter and has black sleeves.

[jarvisyu]

Welcome to Standard, where everyone and his mother plays Neightveil Specter and has black sleeves.

?__?

[jarvisyu]

I don't think you understand HOW MANY Humilities were being played.. Me and Jarvis came to the same conclusion despite not having talked about it...lol Almost every miracles player had it in their 75, and there were even a handful of BW, Junk, and Stoneblade style decks that were playing it. I lost to a BW tokens deck with Humility in the main at the invitational...and I am the type of person that hates being COLD to a single card...so I replaced the null rod with kgrip (never got to cast null rod, so I can't speak to its efficacy, as opposed to grip which has obvious applications in some of our worst matchups). I was running needles too btw.. =)

I've been wanting to try 1-2 Krosan Grip for a while.

The fact that you can grip a Top out of nowhere even if they don't have Humility when they are leaning on it is a Big Deal to me.

[Dice_Box]

?__?
When you attack with Specter, the top card of the other players Library normally finds its way under Specter. Like you would place an equipment. When the game is over, if you forget to give the spells back to the other player, they fine there way into your deck. If you have the same sleeves its really hard to notice.

[jarvisyu]

When you attack with Specter, the top card of the other players Library normally finds its way under Specter. Like you would place an equipment. When the game is over, if you forget to give the spells back to the other player, they fine there way into your deck. If you have the same sleeves its really hard to notice.

I understand what happens with Specter given that I've played a metric ton of standard trying to re-qualify.

I don't see why we are getting to this from green sun's zenith, I guess

[Dice_Box]

Because the outcome would be the same without the current wording of GSZ. Someone would walk off after the game with your cards in there deck.

[Julian23]

Streaming the Legacy Daily Event with Elves! Join us at http://twitch.tv/itsJulian! :cool:

[domajm32]

Played in my LGS's monthly legacy event this past weekend, it was a little on the small size with only 16 players, but fun anyway. I still need to obtain my 4th cradle. In the meantime this list played very well. I might add 1 more Birchlore over the llanowar elves. A Birchlore and Nettle Sentinel Is really good. I went 4-0 wining a Liliana of the Veil and 45$ store credit.
went with this deck list:
Creatures: 33
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Birchlore Rangers
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
2 Dryad Arbor
3 Heritage Druid
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
Spells 11
3 Natural Order
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
Lands 16
1 Taiga
2 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Gaea's Cradle
Sideboard
1 Progenitus
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Mindbreak trap
1 Natural Order
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Choke

Round 1 - vs Tin Fins
Game 1: On the play opened with a DRS t1 and t2. Opponents starts to set up his hand digging with ponders and brainstorms. I Natural Order into a Ruric Thar, the Unbowed, to my opponents surprise, he was expecting and not lethal Hoof. Opponent concedes anyway.
I side in some hand disruption
Game 2: Same sort playing from us both setting up our combos, I hoof for lethal on turn 4.

1-0

Round 2 - vs Affinity
Game 1: Opponents vomits his hand turn 1. Turn 2 swings in with a plating and master in play. Lost very fast.
I side in Abrupt decays, null rod and pithing needle
Game 2: I turn 1 Nettle Sentinel, pass turn. Opponent vomits his hand again, though it wasn't as dangerous as game 1. I'm able to keep him in check until a lethal hoofing occurs.
Game 3: Opponents adjusts sideboards decisions and double thoughtseizes me turn 1, discarding a natural order and quirion ranger, leaving a heritage druid and 4 lands 1 being a cradle. I top deck well and Hoof him again ftw.

2-0

Round 3 - vs Elves mirror (Opponent playing with swan song and 4 Cradles, otherwise similar list to mine)
Game 1: I'm on the play and begin setting up my board with Nettle sentinels and Quirion Rangers. Opponent was also setting up his board with dryad arbors and mana elves, he's able to natural order first and grabs a Ruric Thar, the Unbowed (Hoof was not lethal) thinking he would win the grind. Next turn I take 6 damage playing a Glimpse and combo off casting a Hoof for lethal.
I only sideboard in an extra natural order, thinking being more consistent was better (opponent was siding in many cards)
Game 2: Sideboard plan seemed to work, I was able to glimpse into a natural order for another lethal Hoofing.

3-0 - the only 3-0 player and playing for 1st even a loss here would put me in 3rd.

Round 4 - vs Pox (opponent record 2-0-1)
Game 1: Match is a little blurry, but ended up winning with a Craterhoof. I remember it being a little grinding as a pox match would be.
I sideboard in pithing needle, null rod and thoughseize.
Game 2: This game was painful, opponent plays a Liliana of the veil turn 1 and it was a downward spiral for me from there. Game loss was slowly inevitable.
Game 3: I start to set up my board while navigating through edict effects and some hand disruption. Opponent inquisitions me stripping a thoughtseize. He didnt want be taking hid neither void or engineered plague lol. I'm able to get a natural order off with the help of 2 cradles and swinging in for 16 damage getting he to 2 life. Opponent takes his turn and doesn't draw into any out and extends a hand.

4-0 wining the event!
All in all elves is a very fun and rewarding deck and plan to invest in that 4th cradle ASAP. I'm going to change the sideboard up a little bit, but like where the maindeck is.
Some of the other decks I saw at the event were show and tell, BUG delver and shardless, counter-top/miracles, this 10 land mono green thing, the gate, high tide and this stoneforge deck that the sword of the meek combo in it.

[Kayradis]

Got the outline completed on my madness (Ref : Elves! Tattoo earlier in that thread).
Shit looks crazy

Pics later.

[andrebonotto]

(...)
Round 4 - vs Pox (...)
Game 1: Match is a little blurry, but ended up winning with a Craterhoof. I remember it being a little grinding as a pox match would be.
I sideboard in pithing needle, null rod and thoughseize.
Game 2: This game was painful, opponent plays a Liliana of the veil turn 1 and it was a downward spiral for me from there. Game loss was slowly inevitable.
Game 3: I start to set up my board while navigating through edict effects and some hand disruption. Opponent inquisitions me stripping a thoughtseize. He didnt want be taking hid neither void or engineered plague lol. I'm able to get a natural order off with the help of 2 cradles and swinging in for 16 damage getting he to 2 life. Opponent takes his turn and doesn't draw into any out and extends a hand.
(...).

Hey, congrats man!

As I mentioned on my previous post, I lost a TOP 4 match against POX last Sunday.
I'm looking for some tips on this MU, like: what do you think is important there; which play lines to follow; and SB'ing.

I think I sideboarded like this:


IN: NO#4, Prog (against his creature removals), 2x Needles (against Wasteland), 3x Thoughtseize (against his mass removals/general hate, e.g. Night of Soul's Betrayal)
OUT: Ruric, Viridian Shaman, 2x Glimpse, 2x Heritage Druid, E. Visionary


What do you think?

The thing is: I didn't like how my games played after SB. I was really choked on mana because of, besides my mulliganing after "reliable" :g: producing lands, I was hit hard by his constantly chaining of mana disruption effects, like: Smallpox; Sinkhole; Wasteland; and Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale;... so I got stuck with 2x NO and a Progenitus in my hand for several turns, falling a little more behind each time.
Eventually, I couldn't recover when he got Tombstalker online.

Oh, and why did you bring the Null Rod against POX?
Aside from the Mishra's Factories "auto-pumping", I don't recall seeing any artifacts w/ activated abilities...


Regards,

- André

[domajm32]

Thanks Andre! Yeah I forget to mention I did side in the 4th NO in the pox match as well as pithing needle for the man lands. null rod was in for the cursed scroll. I didn't run prog out there due to his over abundance of edict effects. My thought was with runic out there he'd have to take six to get rid of him and or sinkhole me.
I was lucky in that the pox player did not have any tabernacles... Those would be hell.

[LeoCop 90]

I can see Worldspine Wurm shine against pox ....
I have no experience about the matchup though, and i'd like to hear from more experienced players if they value more glimpse of nature or natural order against pox. I guess that given the amount of disruption they have, it can be difficult sometimes to reach 4 mana, while a well-timed glimpse chain can win you the game.

[264505]

The only time I played against Pox was at GPDC when I played against the BG variant. I had Thorn of Amethyst as my anti combo artifact at the time and that really slowed down his development when I was able to land it. Worldspine Wurm is probably a better target than Progenitus, but both do manage to get the job done. I would probably avoid bringing in discard, you tend to win the game by developing your board and keeping your hand full of cards via glimpse. I would emphasize that plan post board instead of diluting your deck with discard spells.

[dte]

I fully agree on not siding in discard against wasteland.deck.
discard is most efficient T1, while you do not want to fetch bayou, especially against pox where you do not want abrupt decay either.

I will side in only needle (mainly for liliana), NO-pro and wilt leaf liege if you have it. ScOoze too if you do not have it MD.
I will side out one behemoth, Ruric, heritage.

[andrebonotto]

IRT playing against POX:

Thanks for the comments!

I forgot I had seen a Cursed Scroll from POX too. It appeared only in the end of the game, when he had already won. Is it worth to leave/bring the Viridian Shaman in for this (and for any other 'annoyances', like Bottled Cloister)?

Needles seem indeed very valuable, between facing Wasteland, Mishra's Factory, Cursed Scrool and Liliana. It had such high value that my opponent promptly Inquisition'ed it :rolleyes: ...

You guys are right on pointing that Glimpse is a great way to recover CA here - maybe I just had the bad luck of being hit by so much discard that it felt awkward to discard Glimpse or to have no 'chainable' creatures for it to work.

About not siding in my discard, the main issue was that I thought of it as an answer to Night of the Soul's Betrayal, which he had online very early on the games (powered by Dark Ritual), and that card simply wrecked my game (my only out to enchants. on my 75 are the 3x Abrupt Decays, that cannot touch it).
I think it's harder to play around this card in comparison to Engineered Plague, for instance (Plague does not mess with Dryads and Symbiotes; and Decay can destroy it).

Worldspine Wurm seems cool here, but I don't know if it can fit my SB (I'm not sure if I want to replace Progenitus with this, so I would need to free another slot). I read somewhere that the Wurm would also be nice against S&T. Anyone who has some experience with the Wurm could comment a bit on it's applications and your experience with it?

Well... maybe I just need to practice a bit more against POX using the SB'ing you guys are recommending (+: NO#4, Progenitus, 2 Needle / -: Ruric, 1 Behemoth, 1 Heritage, 1 another elf <Viridian Shaman/Visionary?> ) ...


Regards,

- André

[dte]

Hello,

First, Night of the Soul's Betrayal is not a common card in pox. I checked and see only one in MD + SB considering the 6 lasts decks on both the POX thread on this website and on mtgtop8.
So, except if you know for sure your opponent is playing more than one, I do not think that bringing discards and exposing you to wasteland is worth it for this lone copy. You could have be beaten up by this powered out early by dark ritual twice, but it's probably just bad luck. POX games tend to go for the long run and awful topdecks like discards are really bad.



IRT playing against POX:
I forgot I had seen a Cursed Scroll from POX too. It appeared only in the end of the game, when he had already won. Is it worth to leave/bring the Viridian Shaman in for this (and for any other 'annoyances', like Bottled Cloister)?
- André

Yes, it is woth keeping it in


IRT playing against POX:
Worldspine Wurm seems cool here, but I don't know if it can fit my SB (I'm not sure if I want to replace Progenitus with this, so I would need to free another slot). I read somewhere that the Wurm would also be nice against S&T. Anyone who has some experience with the Wurm could comment a bit on it's applications and your experience with it?


Well, Worldspine Wurm is a good NO-target. It is better than Progenitus versus every non-stp MU. But only marginally better, generally Progenitus is winning as well once it gets online. And you really want it (proge) against miracle, UWR-delver, D&T, every blade variant, ... So to my mind Progenitus should be in your SB, no matter what. It is your main gameplan against so much things. And adding Worldspine Wurm as an aditional NO-target in SB against Liliana.deck is a wasted slot. Again these decks, I always felt Wilt-Leaf Liege to be way better, as it is an answer to golgari charmm, plague (even your Night of the Soul's Betrayal) and it is a GSZ target. But even it is not always enough to make the cut.

Regards,
David

[Lemnear]

Gathering Elves-masterminds for a state-of-the-art podcast! #WeWantDan

[Kayradis]

#WeWantDan.

[Kayradis]

Seem like this thread is dying.
What's shaking guys?
No ideas?
What would you change in the MD?

[Echelon]

Seem like this thread is dying.
What's shaking guys?
No ideas?
What would you change in the MD?

Why bother? Every suggestion made seems to be met by something along the lines of "Meh, it can't possibly be better then what we have now, so just don't".

This thread is doomed.

[Lemnear]

Why bother? Every suggestion made seems to be met by something along the lines of "Meh, it can't be better then what we have now, so just don't".

This thread is doomed.

Funny, because I have the impression that not even 30min of thinking and evaluating is put into some suggestions before being posted on the last 20 pages. "Can we play card x?" is no base for a discussion

[Echelon]

I have the impression that

Thank you for highlighting my point.

Also...


"Can we play card x?" is no base for a discussion

Neither is simply stating "No". People like to forget this works both ways.

[shopshopshop]

I've been running a sideboard with 3 Pithing Needle and 1 Null Rod, along with a 3 Thoughtseize/2 Cabal Therapy discard package, and was curious how to sideboard against Miracles.

The cards in the SB that I definitely want are 3 Abrupt Decay, Null Rod, and X Pithing Needles.

In Julian's SB guide, he advocates 2 Needles, 2 Seize, NO+Progenitus, and 3 Abrupt Decay.

Since current sideboarding has more Needles/Null Rod, is the extra Needle and a Null Rod going to be more effective than the 2 Thoughtseize?

[Lemnear]

Neither is simply stating "No". People like to forget this works both ways.

Now that's a strange way to discuss. We have a working shell (that possibly needs more stability in the current metagame) people come up with ideas without giving any founded reasoning for inclusion of cards and want them to be discussed and now it should be my duty to find counterarguments for some more or less random cards named?

Pal, every time a green fatty is spoilered it is suggested for elves because of NO and GSZ without adressing up- & downsides or any relevant topics. I certainly have better to do than writing an essay about "why card x is inferior to card y or why x has no use at all" after people drop a one-liner and a picture of the card. I know no other archetype which is discussed in such a way.

Hell, there wasn't even a real discussion about Decay vs. krosan Grip which was a topic on the last pages with waging advantages of the one or another now that Night of Souls Betrayal, moat and Humility see some play


Since current sideboarding has more Needles/Null Rod, is the extra Needle and a Null Rod going to be more effective than the 2 Thoughtseize?

These cards don't even necessarily adress the same decks. You should ask yourself if you expect more Miracles or more Storm/Show&Tell for your tournament even if needle (griselbrand) and Rod (LED) can help against the combo decks. The artifacts are worse against combo overall but fullfil double-duty

[Dice_Box]

Why bother? Every suggestion made seems to be met by something along the lines of "Meh, it can't possibly be better then what we have now, so just don't".

This thread is doomed.

The deck ebbs and flows. People these days seam more content to test, then suggest over talk first and debate. I think that's a good thing.

Also, solid suggestions are solid, but you need to be able to say "X is better than Y in this way, for these reasons and it helps the deck overall in this fashion". Instead what I see a lot of is "Hay, X has just been spoiled, it's green and beats for a ton, fits right in the deck yes?". To those people, no really is the best answer.

[Togores]

Im this premium article Sam Black speaks about his mistake in the last open and also has some brews about changin elves at the end.

Its premium so im prety sure I would get a problem If I even quote something.

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/28248_Scandal-.html

[Shagstaman]

I got to play an elves mirror with Mr. Black and he was obviously very green to playing the deck...missed nettle sentinel triggers, almost missed a craterhoof trigger, etc... he ran better than I did though and got me with full glimpse combo in 2 games. I seriously doubt he was trying to cheat as some people suggested, I think he was just nervous piloting a new deck-- and I can pretty confidently say that attacking with a summoning sick dude on a glimpse turn is something we've all done once or twice (not on purpose...it's easy to lose track of which of your 23 dudes have sickness)

Anywho, about this thread being stale...I agree, but I mean really without getting super drastic with the changes there's not a good direction to go with the deck. I mean we could experiment with a summoners pact build for speed, but I think that's not the best call due to miracles gaining popularity. a blue variant also warrants discussion-- I've been thinking a LOT about gitaxian probe in the main if I can find room...

[Kayradis]

Wasn't Matt Nass playing with Probe maindeck for a while?

[Shagstaman]

I think I remember seeing a few lists with it... I was just thinking that the whole "56 card deck" thing plus knowing if the coast is clear to combo off would be nice in game 1's... It would also make our combo matchup better since it would make our therapies better. an opening hand with probe and therapy vs combo seems like the stones with even a small amount of pressure.

The hard part would be what to cut...I was leaning toward 2-3 lands plus some of the maindeck 1-ofs.. so like -1 forest, -1 fetch, -1 viridian, -1 heritage.... or even -2 heritage to keep a land or shaman.

seems solid in my mind, but who the hell knows if it's any good in practice.

[Kayradis]

I can get behind -1 Shaman
but -2 lands?
Maybe -1 Fetch.

Build and try?

[Shagstaman]

ill sleeve it up later and goldfish a bit vs imaginary delver players. =)

[Kayradis]

Mind writing the number/hands down?

Thanks!

[Lemnear]

If you test this i suggest cutting within nettle/heritage

[BJeagle]

Im playing with 3 probes. -1 glimps, one nettle and one heritage druid. Really really loves it, knowing when not to play around daze and spellpierce is wonderfull or knowing if a combodeck can go off...


Skickas från min iPhone via Tapatalk

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

I still think we can round out the sideboarding plan for decks not yet in Julian's recommended suite. There are still at least fifteen decks it's worth practicing against, debating about, and recommending sideboards for. This should give us some ample fodder for discussion until we start seeing some cards that might recharge the deck from WotC.

[Echelon]

Now that's a strange way to discuss. We have a working shell (that possibly needs more stability in the current metagame) people come up with ideas without giving any founded reasoning for inclusion of cards and want them to be discussed and now it should be my duty to find counterarguments for some more or less random cards named?

Funnily enough large corporations get their best business ideas from brainstorming sessions that work exactly like that. Suggest a number of seemingly absurd ideas out of the blue, then evaluate them thoroughly.

We could start one here - starting from today, we take the time to gather ideas for new approaches or small improvements to the deck and after a week or so, start evaluating them one by one.

I'll go first.

Instead of going for a fast NO-build of Elves, build a slower engine-based aggro-version.

Ie. a number of land, mana dorks and Quirion Rangers and 4 Oracle of Muldaya, 4 Blood Shaman & the Best Friend-team. Then pile on with a combination of Elvish Archdruids, Champions and other lords. Still run GSZ, but no longer run NO/Glimpse of Nature. Maybe run a couple of Concordant Crossroads.

Slows down the deck considerably but makes it more resillient against counters and spotremoval and gives you more ways to rebuild after your board has been swept.

Alright, next person! Evaluation starts next thursday.

[Kayradis]

I like the idea, but Im not too sure about the Oracle.
In a build that run 20 lands (MAX!) it's a bit clumsy

[Echelon]

It becomes better when paired with Quirion Ranger and helps you make the decision to either tap Blood Shaman (also ensures you always pick the right creature type with the Shaman) or bounce an Elvish Visionary :smile:.

But the point of this proces is to wait with evaluating until we've gathered some more ideas so try to refrain from doing so for a bit. So, who's next? And feel free to expand upon the ideas of others, that's what makes these sessions useful.

[Kayradis]

The fact that we are playing a creature based combo almost limit our options.
I was thinking at one point cutting all the fetches and trying with Elvish Pionner...
The Lemnear on my left shoulder told me to do it...
The ItsJulian on my right shoulder told me it's a bad idea...
The Danyul behind me told me "Get at em bro"

[LeoCop 90]

if you're looking to play aggro elves you should probably understand how decks like goblins/death and taxes work. Elves could probably not run aether vial because they generate a lot of mana by themselves, but things like wasteland, rishadan port, cavern of souls should be staple.
Bloodline shaman seems fine for card advantage, but given that we already have symbiote/visionary i'd play Sylvan Messenger instead of bloodline shaman to go bonkers with symbiote.
The problem is that aggro elves probably fails to reach the power level of goblins/death and taxes, they just have more efficient creatures for this path and better removal spells.

Edit: while i was writing this i realized how this change would improve our miracle matchup. Goblins have a very good miracle matchup because they don't need to commit to the board too much to apply pressure, and they are very resilient to countermagic. If only was possible to sideboard into an aggro elves list after game 1, that would give us an advantage over miracles.... but the best cards against them would be aether vial, sylvan messenger and cavern of souls, none of wich we can run main deck in the combo shell.

[nudon]

I don't get the logic behind slowing down a deck that already beats every fair deck aside from miracles. Even miracles is beatable with a decent sideboard plan (2-0 at SCGLA). If anything, I think finding ways to improve the combo match-up is the way to go. Scavenging ooze may deserve consideration as a MD option going forward. The deck became a tier 1 deck almost a year ago with the addition of DRS, NO->hoof, and AD. DRS is only marginally slower than llanowar but I doubt anyone is going to argue its inclusion. Meanwhile, NO->hoof is the primary reason why we can race combo now. Post-board games are easier as we delay the opponent long enough to NO for lethal out of nowhere.

[Dice_Box]

I have a aggro elves build I use in social games. It has a major issues early game to removal. I know people do not like that reason used, but it is true. A good bolt and you lose a good amount of your speed. The wind in your sails is far too dependent on the right combination of cards because your not after Lords, your after the right Lords for the situations at hand. It is like Fish but without Permission, its not a great plan. If you can build without someone stopping you, your a gold.

Goblins deals well with Miracles not because its an aggro plan, but because its a re-loadable gun. The main weapon against Goblins only moves them to the bottom of the library. A matron into a Ringleader and your off again at full speed. Aggro elves does not have this, no combo of Wasteland and Port on top of some fast mana will stop the pain that will come from a wipe. The deck might have the NO out, but it does not have the toolbox and draw of Goblins. Also Goblins is all but dead, so comparing a dead deck to a watered down Elf deck does not seam smart.

[Shagstaman]

I did some goldfishing with the probes in and it seemed wonky...I think it definitely is a fine plan vs combo and slower fair decks, but vs something like delver the life loss is very relevant. I'll mess with it some more.

I know I've mentioned this before in the thread and got shot down, but what about a straight up combo version that forgoes the long game in favor of pure speed... pacts, etc with the focus being on glimpse or regal force to draw cards. I'd suggest some priest of titania or archdruid in a version like this, as well as ezuri as a potential win con. Something to chew on, but itd need to be looked at with fresh eyes...none of thise "but NO elves is obv better" biz

[Absolutflipz]

I did some goldfishing with the probes in and it seemed wonky...I think it definitely is a fine plan vs combo and slower fair decks, but vs something like delver the life loss is very relevant. I'll mess with it some more.

I know I've mentioned this before in the thread and got shot down, but what about a straight up combo version that forgoes the long game in favor of pure speed... pacts, etc with the focus being on glimpse or regal force to draw cards. I'd suggest some priest of titania or archdruid in a version like this, as well as ezuri as a potential win con. Something to chew on, but itd need to be looked at with fresh eyes...none of thise "but NO elves is obv better" biz

A more tuned, all-in version would have things like Summoner's Pact, extra Birchlores, not stuff like Priest of Titania/Archdruid.

I used to sideboard 1-2 Summoner's Pacts to bring in against opposing combo decks so as to speed up my deck against them in g2/3.

[LeoCop 90]

have a aggro elves build I use in social games. It has a major issues early game to removal. I know people do not like that reason used, but it is true. A good bolt and you lose a good amount of your speed. The wind in your sails is far too dependent on the right combination of cards because your not after Lords, your after the right Lords for the situations at hand. It is like Fish but without Permission, its not a great plan. If you can build without someone stopping you, your a gold.

Goblins deals well with Miracles not because its an aggro plan, but because its a re-loadable gun. The main weapon against Goblins only moves them to the bottom of the library. A matron into a Ringleader and your off again at full speed. Aggro elves does not have this, no combo of Wasteland and Port on top of some fast mana will stop the pain that will come from a wipe. The deck might have the NO out, but it does not have the toolbox and draw of Goblins. Also Goblins is all but dead, so comparing a dead deck to a watered down Elf deck does not seam smart.

I know why goblins do well against miracles, but you should realize that also elves have access to the tools to be a reloadable gun. Goblin Ringleader=Sylvan Messenger. Then we have symbiote that can bounce a sylvan messenger or elvish visionary, or bloodline shaman if you like it.
I also know that a version of elves similar to the one i am describing would be totally inferior to goblins ( we have no lackey, no matron, no removal), but i'm totally convinced that would do better against miracles than the current combo elves deck. However it is pointless to change our deck radically just to improve one matchup, and i was explaining my point of view just because people in the previous page were talking about coming up with new ideas.